Things which struck you as "odd"

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Things which struck you as "odd"

Post  Mona on Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:22 am

This is an archive of two threads orginally posted on the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum hosted by World Crossing, which ceased operations on April 15, 2011.

Archived by Julia H.


Hagsquid - May 3, 2004 3:29 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Apr 6, 2009 1:36 pm
I couldn't think of a place to put this, and someone has mentioned it before in the Snape thread... but I found this quite odd in PS(SS).

Dumbledore is talking to Harry, and Harry is telling him about "Quirell." "Quirell this, and Quirell that." Then the conversation moves to Snape, and DD promptly corrects Harry "Professor Snape, Harrry." I noticed that he didn't seem to care when Harry said "Quirell" without "Professor."

Feel free to post any other observations that you thought seemed a bit odd when you read them...


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Last edited by Mona on Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:27 am; edited 8 times in total
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Things which struck you as "odd" Part I - Posts 1 to 50

Post  Mona on Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:00 pm



Prefect Marcus - May 3, 2004 4:58 pm (#1 of 2970)
Well, even with Snape it is not a hard and fast rule. Reread the prophecy chapter in OoP. Dumbledore does gently remind Harry to use "Professor Snape" but he doesn't beat Harry of the head with it.

You will also note that Dumbledore trusts Snape, so he insists upon the honorific. Quirrell proved untrustworthy, so he does not merit the honorific.



Hagsquid - May 3, 2004 5:01 pm (#2 of 2970)
I'm mainly curious if this has been done for any of the other Professors. I noticed that searching for Mcgonagal yields a whole bunch of "Pro..Mc.." There's only a few places where she's referred to as just "Mcgonagal."



Tomoé - May 3, 2004 5:23 pm (#3 of 2970)
In my humble opinion, Dumbledore is aware that :

1) Snape still hate James Potter very much
2) Harry looks very much like James
3) Harry's apparence could lead Snape to mistake the boy for his father

Therefore, Dumbledore encourages Harry to use professor, because the word reminds Snape that he's talking to Harry, not James.



The giant squid - May 3, 2004 11:03 pm (#4 of 2970)
Also, there is still current animosity between Severus & Harry. Reminding Harry to use the honorific tells him, "No matter how much you hate him, he's still your teacher."

Quirrell is past tense. He's no longer a professor at Hogwarts or anywhere else, so there's no point in emphasizing his former title.



A-is-for-Amy - May 4, 2004 6:12 am (#5 of 2970)
It think it boils down to a respect thing. Harry wasn't speaking the names of the other teachers with venom or disrespect in his voice, and so they probably didn't see a reason to correct him. When he says "Snape" it is usually followed by something uncomplimentary, which is a familiarity that isn't fitting for a student/teacher relationship. Even if he doesn't feel it, he needs to act respectful. It might also be Dumbledore's way of driving home his point about Snape being worthy of the title "professor" (as I think someone else said before).



Loopy Lupin - May 5, 2004 5:50 am (#6 of 2970)
It struck me as "odd" how much time Hermione is allowed to spend away from her parents. She apparently spend most, if not all, of the summer at 12GP and then blew off a Christmas ski trip by pretending to remain at school. She is, apparently, an only child, but how long has it been since her parents have spent more than a week with her?



Padfoot - May 5, 2004 8:04 am (#7 of 2970)
Hermione went to France with her parents one summer. Does that count?

I think it odd that first years get to the school in boats while the other students go in carriages. Why the difference? Even if the first years needed to enter the great hall later, they could just wait in another room for a while. Hey wait, they already do. So why the different modes of transportation?



haymoni - May 5, 2004 8:08 am (#8 of 2970)
Maybe the view of Hogwarts is better from the lake - first time they are seeing their new home and all.

It was pretty impressive in the movie.



Denise P. - May 5, 2004 8:10 am (#9 of 2970)
I think the first years come by boat to instill a sense of awe in them. It could be that when Hogwarts was founded, the only way to get there was by boat. The first years still arrive in that way, thus keeping up the tradition.



Loopy Lupin - May 5, 2004 9:17 am (#10 of 2970)
Most schools have traditions which are explained by nothing more than--"Its tradition" There were more than a few traditions being continued at my alma mater (University of Virginia); I can only imagine the extent of it at British schools.



Verbina - May 5, 2004 10:31 am (#11 of 2970)
And if it is a tradition to instill a sense of awe, then I would say it has succeeded wonderfully.

It is possible that is in the way of a "test" without it really being a test.

One thing that has bugged me off and on for a while and really quite a trivial thing is the name. Hogwarts and Hogsmeade. I am assuming that there is some connection to raising pigs or something in the area. But it does make one wonder which came first, Hogwarts or Hogsmeade. And why are their statues of flying pigs at the entrance to Hogwarts??? I know. Odd question.



Loopy Lupin - May 5, 2004 10:45 am (#12 of 2970)
Maybe someone told Salazar, Godric, Helga, and Rowena that they would successfully form a wizarding school "when pigs fly!"



Verbina - May 5, 2004 10:46 am (#13 of 2970)
hehehe I like that!!! Especially considering how "well" they seemingly got along! Very Happy



Star Crossed - May 5, 2004 12:04 pm (#14 of 2970)
And don't forget Pig, though that's not completely connected, and Hog's Head.



Catherine - May 5, 2004 1:16 pm (#15 of 2970)
I always thought the first year boat crossing was a symbolic crossing--sort of like Caeser crossing the Rubicon. Nothing is ever the same again, and you can't go back. It's a moment when childhood is left behind, and the adult world lies ahead. For muggle-borns, with the exception of a Diagon Alley shopping trip, it's the first real foray into a completely magical place.

On a practical note, after OoP, I thought that maybe the first years crossed in the boats to avoid the "thestral-seeing" problems and to avoid overwhelming those first years who can see them.



Chemyst - May 5, 2004 3:57 pm (#16 of 2970)
Hmm... Thestral-seeing problems. Hmm... 'Could be. But that also sounds we're thinking too hard. I just thought the boats were used originally and some sank while at the same time the school grew and now there aren't enough for everybody, so they made it special for the first-years. Did they have enough thestrals before Hagrid was gamekeeper? Maybe it's the other way around; not enough thestrals for everyone?

I really like the Rubicon analogy.



Ozymandias - May 5, 2004 4:51 pm (#17 of 2970)
"Harry, Ron and Hermione turned and saw the gigantic outline of Hagrid at the other end of the platform, beckoning the terrified-looking new students forward for their traditional journey across the lake." (emphasis mine), PoA pg 86

I agree that's it's just something that's done for the new students.



Hagsquid - May 6, 2004 10:10 am (#18 of 2970)
Maybe Hagrid giving the first years a ride across the lake has something to do with his being the keeper of keys.



Madame Librarian - May 6, 2004 7:42 pm (#19 of 2970)
It's a fine opportunity for the Giant Squid (DD, as we all know) to look over those ickle firsties. (joke)

Ciao. Barb



Hagsquid - May 6, 2004 7:44 pm (#20 of 2970)
Odd that DD would know right away when the children fall in the lake; makes much more sense than HIGS, where as Hagrid could just dive in, morph, rescue, morph back, and then act like he was just looking for the kid when the squid rescued him. :p



Norbert not a common welsh green - May 7, 2004 1:08 pm (#21 of 2970)
Geting back to the thestrels, didnt Luna say she saw them on her first day?



Padfoot - May 7, 2004 1:16 pm (#22 of 2970)
Yes I think Luna did say that. She saw her mom die when she was little, before she came to Hogwarts.



Iverson Godfrey - May 7, 2004 4:04 pm (#23 of 2970)
So does that mean that she took a carriage up to the castle on her first day?



Star Crossed - May 7, 2004 5:06 pm (#24 of 2970)
Assuming that when Harry sees Hagrid, he can see the first years, I'm sure Luna could look over and see the thestrals.



VeronikaG - May 8, 2004 9:12 am (#25 of 2970)
Yes, they all come out of the train at the same place. Then Hagrid takes the first years to the boats. The carriages with the thestrals are up at the station, so the first years could probably see them.



VeronikaG - May 16, 2004 12:35 pm (#26 of 2970)
This really seems odd! How does the Dursleys send the lousy presents to Harry at Christmas? They can't use the regular mail services. Do they use owl post? What could make them do something so unnatural, in their eyes? Do they have to send him something, for the same reason they have to let him live with them?



Chemyst - May 16, 2004 1:52 pm (#27 of 2970)
Veronika, I met this guy once, and it didn't take me long to form a negative opinion of his views on people and money. Here is the story, (and yes, it is on topic.) He was bragging about how he could get good service at restaurants. He'd had business cards printed up that said he was a food critic for some newspaper. When it came time to leave the tip, he'd leave a bushiness card. If service or food had been bad, he'd leave a business card and 2¢. He said if he left nothing, they'd assume he was a cheap-skate, but if he left 2¢ they'd know he didn't think much of the place and would try harder next time! I didn't stick around to see if his theory worked, but when I read about the Dursley's gift-giving, I thought of him. If I'd never met this guy, I'd probably think JKR was using these gifts in a twisted humorous way to show how petty Vernon & Co. can be. But since I did, I think JKR was using these gifts in a twisted humorous way to show the Dursley's selfishness and false pride. It is as if they have a social obligation and appearances to keep and they probably use the gift-giving for all it's worth (cough). They get the satisfaction of complaining to their friends about how they must go out of their way to send Harry a gift, then they get sympathy from them (Oh, you're so good to sacrifice so much to raise your sister's boy!), and then they get to stick it to Harry all at the same time. Like leaving a 2¢ tip, they enjoy sending him lousy gifts more than they enjoy ignoring him.

And your other questions -- Just as Gringotts can convert muggle money, there must be a central wizard post office that can forward or redirect mail, wouldn't you think? And, no, I can't think of anything that would obligate them to send a gift. I think they just get a twisted enjoyment form doing so.



mike miller - May 17, 2004 5:17 am (#28 of 2970)
Chemyst - Reread the part in CoS when Harry receives his toothpick. The Christmas gift is accompanied by a notes asking if Harry could possible stay at Hogwarts for the summer. I think JKR is making a conscious connection between Harry's need to spend some time each year at #4 to maintain the protection he has there and the disgusting gift Harry receives.

I think DD sends Hedwig to Petunia reminder her of her obligations. Perhaps this explains the mysterious letter Petunia receives when Vernon wants to kick Harry out of the house.



Chemyst - May 17, 2004 6:02 am (#29 of 2970)
I think DD sends Hedwig to Petunia reminder her of her obligations. - Mike Do you mean the Howler at the beginning of OP? You're right, Rowling did layer up the clue base about Harry's need to spend some time each year at 4PD, and there can be hardly any doubt that Petunia was getting lax. It must be hard for her to find that balance where she meets the minimum for Harry's safety and is still able to placate Vernon, because I do think Vernon gets a twisted, ego-satisfying pleasure in doing these things to Harry.



mike miller - May 17, 2004 6:13 am (#30 of 2970)
You've got Chemyst! The Howler say something like "Remember my Last" which refers to a previous letter reminding Petunia of her obligation and the key points needed to keep the protection intacted. I think the gifts are a part of this combination.

The gifts that Harrys receives are so disgusting that there must be a logical reason for them. I think Petunia is much more informed of the WW than she let's Vernon know; but, that's been talked in detail on the Good Old Petunia thread.



zelmia - May 21, 2004 5:57 pm (#31 of 2970)
One thing I have always found peculiar is that Hermione says, "I got these [spare robes] out of the laundry" when the Trio are about to use the Polyjuice Potion.
1) How did she know where the laundry was? and
2) If she was able to find the Laundry area, why is she later so appalled that there are House Elves working at Hogwarts? Surely she would have seen them when she discovered where to steal spare robes from the Laundry.
I have always found this particular little plot point to be a little too deus ex machina for my own taste.



Mellilot Flower. - May 24, 2004 11:39 am (#32 of 2970)
I always found it odd that someone like Mr Weasley doesn't know more about the muggle world than he is shown to. He works with muggles, he is always having to restore things such as muggle plumbing, yet he doesn't know what it's called- and this is with words being so important to the wizarding world. He can modify a ford anglia, but can't read muggle money.

Also the odd conjunction of muggle technology and wizard magic in the moving photographs. It's just so strange given the lack of understanding on both parts.



zelmia - May 24, 2004 4:47 pm (#33 of 2970)
Chloe, Arthur doesn't "work with Muggles" per se. While it's true that he may occasionally have to come into contact with them in performing his duties, this contact seems to consist entirely of performing Memory Charms. At least we never hear of Arthur having discussions with any of these people about their daily lives.

He is fascinated by Muggle culture in the same way that ... say, an American is fascinated by the Bushmen of the Kalahari. While one can study their artwork and their tools, and even learn to speak their language, one can never fully understand another culture until one has become a part of it.



JKR4PM - May 24, 2004 6:30 pm (#34 of 2970)
What would prevent Arthur from talking to them before Obliviating them?



Mellilot Flower. - May 25, 2004 4:16 am (#35 of 2970)
I always pictured arthur smoothing things over by talking to the muggles first, before resorting to memory charms if he had to. Why have a seperate muggle liason office if all they did was memory charms? isn't there a different group of people whose job it is to preform memory charms?

Arthur, on the other hand deals with things like muggle baiting, and he'd have to talk to muggles in this case, he also has to sort out muggle plumbing...



Loopy Lupin - May 25, 2004 5:32 am (#36 of 2970)
Back to Zelmia's laundry point, I don't think that getting a couple spare robes from the laundry is exactly a deus ex machina. How laundry is done at Hogwarts has never been explained, but apparently, there is a place where one can drop off or pick up clothes. Hence, Hermione nabbed a couple extra when she needed them; she didn't necessarily need to see a house elf in doing so.

As to Arthur and Muggles, I find it odd also that he can be so utterly clueless about the Muggle world. You would think that his fascination would have taken him to at least a "muggle studies" textbook (or that he would have taken that class himself at Hogwarts assuming it was offered back then) which at the very least could have straightened him out on "eckeltricity" and "pumbles."

Chloe, I don't think Mr. Weasley has a choice on the memory charm thing. Wizard secrecy is the law so a muggle who has seen too much, must be zapped.



Mellilot Flower. - May 25, 2004 5:46 am (#37 of 2970)
But there are obliviators to do that sort of job. If Arthur's job was made up entirely of modifying muggles memories then he would be an obliviator, not in a seperate department.

sorry about being stubborn over this...



Catherine - May 25, 2004 5:54 am (#38 of 2970)
I agree with Chloe in her point about Obliviators. I don't think that the main point of Arthur's job is to modify muggle memories; I think it is to find illegally enchanted objects that endager wizard secrecy and muggle safety, and return those objects to "normal." Arthur is, after all, in the "Misuse of Muggle Artifacts" office.

I also agree with Loopy Lupin that Hermione taking the spare robes from the laundry is not a deus ex machina. It would be more like a deus ex machina if a house elf suddenly appeared out of nowhere to the trio in Myrtle's bathroom and said, "Here are some spare robes to help you pull off your impersonation of the Slytherins, Sirs and Miss."

In Zelmia's defense, there are some instances in CoS that I have felt were a trifle on the "deus ex machina" side, such as the appearance of the enchanted Ford Anglia in the forest, and Fawkes in the Chamber. I think Rowling is building toward a 'help to those who ask" theme, so they may ultimately may not be a trite plot device.



Loopy Lupin - May 25, 2004 6:02 am (#39 of 2970)
But there are obliviators to do that sort of job. If Arthur's job was made up entirely of modifying muggles memories then he would be an obliviator, not in a seperate department. -- Chloe

I don't think that anyone was saying that Mr. Weasley's job was "entirely" made up of modifying memories. Its just something that comes with the territory since he must interact with Muggles from time to time.

Catherine- The car in the forest didn't bother me because its not as though it was completely out of nowhere, was it? The car had run into the woods earlier in the book, so it was, IMHO, actually nicely done. Fawkes coming into the Chamber is a little different. Still, to the exten Fawkes came because Harry was showing loyalty to Dumbledore, I guess its not so "out of the blue" either.



Catherine - May 25, 2004 6:07 am (#40 of 2970)
In the end, I agree with you, Loopy about the car and Fawkes, for just the reasons you cited. But I could see if one was looking for a deus ex machina, one could argue that point without being way off base.



Loopy Lupin - May 25, 2004 6:20 am (#41 of 2970)
I don't think you'd be off base at all in arguing the point about Fawkes. All seemed to be lost, but then he comes and pretty much saves the day.



Verbina - May 25, 2004 8:05 am (#42 of 2970)
About Arthur being a bit confused about Muggle things...it could be that he did take that class and the course of study was not exactly accurate. To be interested in muggles is considered sort of "beneath" most wizards and to collect muggle items...well that would be akin to a guy that collects belly button lint. Just not an acceptable thing! ^_^

But what I was saying about the course, we really don't know much about the course. It may very well be that there are a great deal of gaps in the course and depending on the teacher, the gaps are either left for the students to figure out or the teacher attempts to fill them in with their own experiences. And without an understanding of the muggle world from the perspective of one in the muggle world, alot of the little things would be lost. Sort of like how Arthur and his doctors interest in muggle medicine flopped horribly with their attempt at stitches. They didn't know or understand every aspect so it messed up horribly!



Padfoot - May 25, 2004 11:11 am (#43 of 2970)
Could somebody please explain what "deus ex machina" means? It's probably very obvious to everyone but me. Thanks.



Chris. - May 25, 2004 11:18 am (#44 of 2970)
Padfoot, "deus ex machina" means an unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel.

Great avatar, by the way!



Padfoot - May 25, 2004 11:47 am (#45 of 2970)
Thanks and thanks!



Catherine - May 25, 2004 1:17 pm (#46 of 2970)
Padfoot, good question, and Prongs, great answer!

The ex-literature teacher that I am compels me to add that "deus ex machina" means "god out of the machine." One would see it in ancient Greek drama, whereby the actor protraying a god would be lowered onto the stage via a mechanical device in order to "save the day."

As used today, the connotation is a negative one, as it implies that the writer "copped out" or employed inferior writing skill.



Padfoot - May 25, 2004 1:44 pm (#47 of 2970)
Edited by May 25, 2004 2:44 pm
Very interesting Catherine. Thanks for the background info.



Eponine - May 25, 2004 2:24 pm (#48 of 2970)
Speaking of Fawkes and the chamber, how did he know how to get there? Was Harry's loyalty some kind of homing beacon for him?



Chris. - May 25, 2004 2:30 pm (#49 of 2970)
"First of all, Harry, I want to thank you," said Dumbledore, eyes twinkling again. "You must have shown me real loyalty down in the Chamber. Nothing but that could have called Fawkes to you." (UKCoS,Chap. 18,p245)

What gets me is: There's loads of people who show loyalty to Dumbledore but Fawkes doesn't show up. Is it only when they're in danger?



haymoni - May 25, 2004 2:43 pm (#50 of 2970)
You can be "true to your school", but it isn't until you really have to speak up and SHOW your loyalty that it really counts.

Harry verbalized this loyalty and openly defended Dumbledore. I doubt there are wizards walking around everyday professing their faithfulness to Albus Dumbledore.

(Not that I think there are wizards walking around - I keep telling myself: "It's just a book, it's just a book!")

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Mellilot Flower. - May 25, 2004 2:50 pm (#51 of 2970)
It has to be when they need help- I think pheonixes are like kneazles and very loyal to their owners, only since not many are tamed it's hard to know this. I think if Hagrid was ever in dire need and Dumbledore himself couldn't help Fawkes would automatically turn up whether or not he showed within that instance loyalty to Dumbledore. However he didn't show up untill Harry declared his loyalty to Dumbledore in CoS because that book was all about where his loyalty laid and what his choices would be once fully informed (sorry if there was any sense lacking there)



Alohomora - May 25, 2004 7:10 pm (#52 of 2970)
I think Fawkes, being the loyal ?pet? (I hate using this term to describe something as powerful as Fawkes) of Dumbledore, would only do something if he thought Dumbledore would want him to. I don?t think he really cares either way for Harry, except how Harry effects DD. My point? I see him going to the Chamber almost grudgingly-- ?oh, do I really have to move from my nice perch by the fire to save the foolish Potter boy? Yes? Well??.? But since Harry was facing a Dark Wizard and a Basalisk alone, and his chosen form of defending himself was to shout ?Dumbledore is better than you?, Fawkes decided he had to chip in. So he would only help someone if they really needed it.



Mellilot Flower. - May 26, 2004 2:04 am (#53 of 2970)
I think that Fawkes has more of a connection to Harry than that- how many times has he fluttered on to harry's knee (granted usually when Dumbledore wasn't there) and cried on his injuries or just sat their, being warm? (I may be making too much of just a couple of incidents but hmmm)



Alohomora - May 26, 2004 2:27 am (#54 of 2970)
Ok, I do have to laugh a bit at myself. I was in a cynical mood last night. Yeah, Fawkes probabaly cares about Harry, at least to a point. He probably thinks he needs to keep an eye on him, so that he didn't waste the effort when he saved him the first time. Wink



Catherine - May 26, 2004 3:45 am (#55 of 2970)
Actually, Harry has seen Fawkes die and reborn twice now. Fawkes has cured Harry from poisonous wounds twice.

Hmmm...do things happen in threes?



septentrion - May 26, 2004 7:01 am (#56 of 2970)
As we say in French, never two without three !



mike miller - May 26, 2004 10:16 am (#57 of 2970)
This probably belongs on the Fawkes thread, and it's only my opinion, but I think the bond between Harry and Fawkes is growing stronger over time. When both DD and Hedwig have both gone on the next great adventure, I see Fawekes choosing to stay with Harry.



Iverson Godfrey - May 27, 2004 9:28 pm (#58 of 2970)
Well, I think that once Dumbledore dies, Fawkes is going to need a new home. I think he will be passed to Harry...assuming Harry lives.



D.W. - May 28, 2004 6:45 am (#59 of 2970)
Doesn't Harry have a feather from Fawkes in his wand?

Surely then this may be why he and Fawkes have a "connection"?



Tomoé - May 28, 2004 6:53 am (#60 of 2970)
I don't think Fawkes will be passed to anyone, Fawkes will choose himself who he want to be with, if he want to be with anyone.



Catherine - May 28, 2004 8:07 am (#61 of 2970)
I agree, Tomoe. Just like the wand chooses the wizard, then perhaps the phoenix chooses to be "tamed" by a wizard.



Iverson Godfrey - May 28, 2004 7:00 pm (#62 of 2970)
I guess I should have elaborated. I think the reason there are so many references to Fawkes coming to Harry's aide, mending his wounds, comforting him, etc. is that they do share a connection. I also think that connection does have something to do with the wand, but more to do with Dumbledores feelings (love, concern, loyalty) about Harry and Harry's loyalty to Dumbledore. For these reasons, I think that if something happens to Dumbldore, Fawkes may very well (and willingly) become Harry's. (Poor Hedwig. She was disgusted with a show-off parrot. Can you imagine how she would react to a phoenix?)

FB mentions that phoenixes are hard to tame and not usually domesticated. When I learned that, it struck me as odd that Dumbledore had one and I wondered what the circumstances were that led to Fawkes becoming someones pet in the first place.



John Y. - May 28, 2004 10:30 pm (#63 of 2970)
This may have already been discussed somewhere in the forum, so please let me know.

One of the most "odd" things I've been contemplating is how Snape got back into the good graces of Voldemort. In SS Quirrel tells Harry that Snape tried to save him at the Quidditch match. At this point, Voldie was attached to Quirrel so he surely would have known about this. How did Snape explain his actions to Voldemort when he returned? We now understand that Snape is proficient at legilimency, but he would have certainly had to come up with a clever story for saving the Dark Lord's worst enemy.

In GF ch 23, Voldemort says, "And here we have six missing Death Eaters...three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return (Karkaroff)...he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever (Snape)...he will be killed, of course...and one, who remains my most faithful servant (Barty Jr.), and who has already returned to my service."

It looks like Voldemort had it in for Snape, so what happened to get Snape back in his good graces? Has he really forgiven him, or is he using Snape?

Any thoughts...let me know



septentrion - May 29, 2004 1:26 am (#64 of 2970)
John, I don't have the link in handy, but in the Snape thread, the current one and the old one (scroll down until you find the old threads since reorganization), this topic has been discussed several times.



Dumbledore - May 29, 2004 5:19 am (#65 of 2970)
Sorry, this is a little off topic, but I didn't know where else to put this comment and it HAS always struck me as odd.

In the Ministry of Magic, Harry realized that he could cause a diversion by smashing the shelves containing the prophecies with the "Reducto" charm. Obviously, when he smashed the prophecies, the "ghosts" of seers within them began to recite the prophecy. If Harry and Co. could do this, why didn't the Death Eaters think to use the Reducto charm to hear the prophecy about Harry and Voldemort? Then, they would not have to lure Harry to the Department of Mysteries in the first place, and would be able to hear the prophecy in full and tell it to Voldemort without actually touching the prophecy themselves and suffering insanity.

I suppose it would look odd to the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy if that particular prophecy was mysteriously smashed, but at that point, I don't think it would matter to either the Death Eaters or Voldemort because they would already have the information they needed.



Mellilot Flower. - May 29, 2004 5:58 am (#66 of 2970)
I always imagined that there was another way of hearing the prophecies without smashing them, because otherwise it's a little bit destructive... what if you want to hear it over again? isn't that the point of keeping a record? Voldemort would have wanted the prophecy in tact so that he could listen through it several times, not just to have it smashed, here it once and have done with it.

perhaps a bit of a stretched idea, but still...



Dumbledore - May 30, 2004 1:48 pm (#67 of 2970)
Another off the topic comment: in Chamber of Secrets, it is said that Harry was the only one that could hear the basilisk speak because he was a Parselmouth (or is that only in the movie? I'm not sure) However, we know that people who aren't Parselmouths can hear when one speaks Parseltongue, as demonstrated when Harry spoke Parseltongue at the Dueling Club. So, wouldn't it make sense if Hermione and Ron would hear the basilisk just like Harry, but just hear something that sounded to them like a made up language?



haymoni - May 30, 2004 1:56 pm (#68 of 2970)
I think the language spoken by a person to a snake is Parseltongue and yes, they could hear that.

However the actual snake itself speaking...mmm... I guess they should have heard a hissing noise. Maybe it is more of a telepathy kind of thing.



Dumbledore - May 30, 2004 2:00 pm (#69 of 2970)
I think the snake was actually "speaking" the language. On pages 137-138 of CoS, it shows how Harry is hearing the basilisk saying things like rip, kill and I smell blood. Harry is telling Ron and Hermione to listen, but they can't hear it, and probably at that point think he is going mad.



Mellilot Flower. - May 30, 2004 2:07 pm (#70 of 2970)
I think that Hermione and Ron could hear something, but they didn't connect it with the words and threats Harry was hearing. Hogwarts is an old na unusual building which would have all sorts of odd sounds associated with it. The occasional hissing would probably go unn oticed unless you could speak parsltongue.



haymoni - May 30, 2004 2:10 pm (#71 of 2970)
Yes, so your question is even more vexing - Harry hears the snake but Ron & Hermione hear nothing.

After reading the section again, Ron & Hermione were so busy running after Harry - who knows what they heard? Even Harry was getting concerned because the voice was getting fainter.

The snake in the Dueling Club incident didn't talk to Harry. Harry saw it rear up to attack Justin and he told it to leave him alone. And then the snake became docile and Harry knew that it wouldn't attack but he couldn't explain how he knew that.

"Odd."



Dumbledore - May 30, 2004 2:21 pm (#72 of 2970)
That's true. Along with the assumption that Ron and Hermione couldn't hear the basilisk speak is that in Goblet of Fire, Frank Bryce hears Voldemort talking to Nagini in Parseltongue in the Riddle House, yet we have no mention of Nagini answering Voldemort with hisses and clicks. All we hear of Nagini answering was Voldemort's quote "Nagini has interesting new, Wormtail." So maybe people who can't speak Parseltongue can hear humans speak it, but not snakes. All of the information that we have so far of actual snake/human "conversation" would point to that theory.



haymoni - May 30, 2004 2:27 pm (#73 of 2970)
Wonder how Nagini gets around? Poor Wormtail! He probably has to lug a snake around on top of all his other stooge duties.

Hah! Serves him right!



Denise P. - May 30, 2004 7:15 pm (#74 of 2970)
Someone back about..oh 50 posts or so, asked why Arthur doesn't talk to Muggles before altering their memory.

Ethics. I think even if he really wanted to, ethically it would just be wrong to use his position to gain personal information from them.



Verbina - May 30, 2004 8:05 pm (#75 of 2970)
But...Parseltongue is the ability of a human to talk to a snake in a away it will understand and to understand a snake's speech. So...forgive me but I take that to mean that there would only be a hissing from the snake and the Parseltongue would understand it. Much like a translator for any human language. They would hear the language and undertsand it and be able to speak back in the language so as to be understood.

Granted Ron and Hermione didn't hear anything but they weren't exactly listening for hisses in the walls either. And at first, Harry only recognized it as words, not as a different language so he couldn't ask them if they heard sounds. He only asked if they heard the words.

Or did I miss something again?



haymoni - May 31, 2004 4:15 am (#76 of 2970)
Yes I think that's it Verbina - I never thought that the "non-Parseltongues" would hear anything more than hissing.

I think we've been "movie-fied" to think that it sounds more like a language than hissing back.



Dumbledore - May 31, 2004 6:41 am (#77 of 2970)
I agree. In book 4, it is only saying how Frank Bryce heard hissing and clicking from Voldemort, which is more like what a normal snake would sound like, as opposed to the "language" they represented to us in the CoS movie. However, that still leaves the question of why "non-Parseltongues" would never hear anything at all. Because when Harry heard the basilisk the first time in the wall, it got pretty loud, so wouldn't Ron and Hermione hear the hissing? Also, like I said in a previous post, Frank Bryce heard Voldemort speaking the language, but never heard Nagini answer, although we know that Nagini answered because Voldemort then said "Nagini has interesting news, Wormtail." So, why woudl "non-Parseltongues" be able to hear humans speak the language, but not the actual snake. Please correct me if I'm missing any information!



Julia. - May 31, 2004 8:48 am (#78 of 2970)
Sounds good to me Dumbledore. Perhaps the answer to your why woudl "non-Parseltongues" be able to hear humans speak the language, but not the actual snake? question has something to do with...er...how to put this...the differences between humans and animals. Parseltongue appears to be not only the ability to speak to a snake, but the ability to hear a snake respond. Perhaps non-parseltongues can only hear humans speak...but, wait, that doesn't make sence, then how would they hear dogs bark and owls hoot? Grrrrr. Never mind, completly ignore this post, as it makes absoulutly no sence whatsoever.



Verbina - May 31, 2004 2:58 pm (#79 of 2970)
hehe It is a puzzle.

With the bailisk, I could almost write it off as the sounds being not too much different than some of the odd sonds from around the school itself.

With Frank...could it be that the part of the sounds he heard were not coming from Voldemort but from Nagini? I mean, the mind can play tricks on us. If we see and hear a person making clicking sounds in a room, and then we hear more clicking sounds, our minds might make it so that we believe it is the person making them and not something else.

Not sure that made any sense what so ever though.



JKR4PM - May 31, 2004 3:39 pm (#80 of 2970)
Zelmia said, "Arthur doesn't "work with Muggles" per se. While it's true that he may occasionally have to come into contact with them in performing his duties, this contact seems to consist entirely of performing Memory Charms. At least we never hear of Arthur having discussions with any of these people about their daily lives."

My response was, "What would prevent Arthur from talking to them before Obliviating them?"

The idea I was attempting to put across (poorly) was that Arthur has the opportunity to talk to Muggles when he comes into contact with them 'because' he will be modifying their memories. Not that he would go around striking up conversations with any Muggle on the street becuse he feels that he can just modify their memories and thus wouldn't be breaking any laws. (Defensive, aren't I?)



zelmia - May 31, 2004 5:30 pm (#81 of 2970)
Parselmouth = the ability to talk to snakes (ref. CS - Ron to Harry: "You're a parselmouth. Why didn't you tell us? ... You can talk to snakes!") Parseltongue is the actual "language."
Ron and Hermione may very well have heard some kind of sound as they followed Harry up the stairs. But since Harry was claiming specifically to hear a voice, then Ron and Hermione couldn't hear it. They may very well have heard some kind of sound emanating from the castle walls (though personally, I doubt it), but they didn't hear any kind of spoken words, such as a ghost or invisible person would utter.
Still, it's a very good point that we never actually "hear" what these snakes who have appeared in the story are "saying". We only hear - with certainty - what the Parselmouths in the vicinity hear them saying - and conversely what the Parselmouths reply to the snakes (i.e. Harry at the Dueling Club).



Denise P. - May 31, 2004 6:14 pm (#82 of 2970)
The idea I was attempting to put across (poorly) was that Arthur has the opportunity to talk to Muggles when he comes into contact with them 'because' he will be modifying their memories. Not that he would go around striking up conversations with any Muggle on the street becuse he feels that he can just modify their memories and thus wouldn't be breaking any laws. (Defensive, aren't I?)

Right, I got what you were going for. I was just adding in there (poorly) that I didn't think Arthur WOULD talk to the Muggles he came across for work because of ethics. It would be tempting but I don't think he would do it.



Czarina II - May 31, 2004 9:24 pm (#83 of 2970)
In response to non-Parselmouths not being able to hear the actual snakes, I agree with the conclusion that the basilisk would have sounded like plumbing malfunctions or something of the sort. In the case of the dueling club, the snake never talked. The students certainly heard it hiss. Then, presumeably, the snake was too busy listening to Harry.

Frank Bryce may simply not have heard Nagini because she is not very loud. He was listening through a door, no? Even though she is rather large, Nagini doesn't have to have a loud hiss. She could also have been whispering, since she might have sensed that someone was eavesdropping. Voldemort might have been talking at the same time as her, too, thus rendering whatever the true snake said inaudible to Bryce.

One final question on the topic of Parseltongue (from me, anyway, for now) -- did the zoo snake say anything to Harry in PS? It did in the film version, but that's not 100% accurate. If it DID talk to Harry, however, it seems perfectly logical that Muggles would have only heard a normal snake hissing and thought nothing of it. They might not have noticed Harry, nor would they necessarily think him speaking Parseltongue odd.

"Poor little boy -- silly, really, trying to talk to the snake. It's not like it can hear him."



Mellilot Flower. - Jun 1, 2004 2:19 am (#84 of 2970)
The boa constrictor said "thanksss Amigo" but he only thinks he hears it.



Loopy Lupin - Jun 1, 2004 5:25 am (#85 of 2970)
To go back a few posts, the DE's didn't smash the prophecy because Voldemort wanted to hear it for himself. Voldemort does wind up coming to the MOM that night (probably after his legilimency or whatever let him know that things weren't going well), but the idea was to bring the prophecy back to him.



JasonS - Jun 1, 2004 8:27 am (#86 of 2970)
Just a thought why Harry could hear the snake and R & H couldn't. I lived in Moscow, Russia for nearly one year. When I would go out to eat if anyone in the restaurant was speaking English, even from across the room, I could hear the conversation, almost word for word, no matter how loud the noise around me. H & R did not understand parseltounge so it just blended into the background noise like everyone else did, and all they could "hear" were the normal noises.



Padfoot - Jun 2, 2004 9:32 am (#87 of 2970)
I always imagined that there was another way of hearing the prophecies without smashing them

I think that if the person who was allowed to hold it, meaning Harry and Voldemort, did hold it they could hear the prophesy as many times as they wanted. It just happened to break, which is another way of hearing it.

Maybe the DE's didn't break the prophesy with a spell because Voldemort wanted to hear it first hand. Perhaps no one knew that if you break a prophesy, you can hear it? Maybe they assumed that if you broke it, it was gone forever.



Diagon Nilly - Jun 2, 2004 9:49 am (#88 of 2970)
I'm sure this has been covered, but why exactly couldn't LV take the prophesy off the shelf himself? It was about he and Harry, so he should have been able to take it...



mike miller - Jun 2, 2004 10:33 am (#89 of 2970)
Diagon Nilly - I thought Voldemort said that he didn't want to go waltzing into the Ministry of Magic when he was trying to keep his reincarnated self a bit of a secret. Sorry I don't have my books handy to look for the quote but it would be late in OotP.



Emily - Jun 2, 2004 12:01 pm (#90 of 2970)
"Why couldn't he come and get it himself?" (Harry)

"Get it himself?" shrieked Bellatrix on a cackle of mad laughter."The Dark Lord, walk into the Minstry of Magic, when they are so sweetly ignoring his return? The Dark Lord, reveal himself to th Aurors, when at th moment they are wasting their time on my dear cousin?"

Chapter 35, page 786-787 US first edition OP



mike miller - Jun 2, 2004 3:11 pm (#91 of 2970)
Thanks Emily - I stand corrected as it was dear Bella who provided the explanation.



Liz - Jun 2, 2004 6:06 pm (#92 of 2970)
I assume that LV would have looked into prophecies before he instucted the DE how to go about the situation. And therefore the DE would have known not to break it. But JKR didn't give us that sweet bit of info.

Beth



Miss Ginny - Jun 3, 2004 2:59 am (#93 of 2970)
This is something trivial, but that has been bugging me for quite some time now. In five books Harry, beside a brief and plot driven episode in Goblet in the prefect's bathroom, has NEVER taken a shower, bath, or bathed in any other way (even magically!). It is not just that it is too small a detail or a "given" - many times JKR has mentined Harry getting out of bed and dressing, or undressing and getting into bed but not a shower in sight. If she has time to note these details, then surely bathing should occur at some stage. Sorry, I know it is a small detail, but every time Harry wakes up and gets dressed immediately, it just breaks the illusion for me a little. What do you think?



Chris. - Jun 3, 2004 3:11 am (#94 of 2970)
Since JK Rowling doesn't want to enlighten us about Harry, Ron and Hermione's cleanliness, she doesn't put it in.

There was a mention about Ron and Ginny going to the showers after Quidditch, and in PoA, Oliver Wood was rumoured to have tried to drown himself in the showers.

It's the same with going to the toilets. It's not something that we need to hear about.



Catherine - Jun 3, 2004 4:33 am (#95 of 2970)
Rowling is such a "visual" writer that I'm sure that I do not want the details about anyone's bathroom experiences! :-)

Let's talk about something less icky, like cockroaches and spiders and snakes, that sort of thing!



Denise P. - Jun 3, 2004 5:35 am (#96 of 2970)
It is reasonable to assume that Harry and Co do take showers, use the bathroom and also brush their teeth. We don't need to know the details of each time it occurs. Do we need to know if Harry uses regular paste Crest or if he uses the new Cinnamon Burt Crest? Nope, it adds nothing to the story. Hermione is 15, we don't need to know if she had to borrow anything from Lavender during class for an early arrival. Again, it adds nothing to the story and we can safely fill it in for ourselves.

And just for the record, I get up and get dressed immediately.

The thing that struck me as odd is how everyone refers to the Order of the Phoenix as...The Order of the Phoenix. They do it all the time, using the full name. "You know, he is a member of the Order of the Phoenix." Don't you think that if they say "You know, he is a member of the Order" that those they are speaking to are sharp enough to figure out WHICH Order is being discussed?



Loopy Lupin - Jun 3, 2004 5:39 am (#97 of 2970)
I brought this very point up in the "Is there something magical about the back of Harry's neck" thread. Timrew wondered if his neck was magical because he never washed it. I wondered if wizards just hit themselves with a quick "scourgify!" in the mornings. Smile

Anyway, I agree that the details of bathing are not something I'm interesting in reading, but I agree with Ms. Ginny. It is odd that JKR takes the time (quite often actually) to say Harry "got up and dressed" or Harry "pulled on his pajamas," but never says, for example, Harry "got up, showered, dressed, and went down to the Great Hall for breakfast."

While we're still on this topic (more or less, sorry Catherine), it strikes me as odd that 15 year-olds are still wearing pj's to bed. Is this a British thing? A boarding school thing?

Edit-- I posted around the same time as Denise. Smile And as for the full name ("Order of the Phoenix"), I don't have the book with me, but I think there are times that some just say "the Order." Sirius comes to mind. He tells the trio that Ron's mom is on duty just doing stuff for "the Order" and tells Fred and George that their willingness to rush to St. Mungos is why they aren't in "the Order."



Catherine - Jun 3, 2004 5:44 am (#98 of 2970)
Maybe Rowling talks about the PJs to avoid any kind of "boxer vs. brief" question. And no, I don't want that one answered, either! It was painful enough to learn that Snape's underwear was graying.

Good question, Loopy, about the jammies. I'm not aware of too many 15 year old boys wearing them in general, but as I have young female children, I probably wouldn't know anyway.

I didn't find it weird in GoF that Dumbledore, when telling Sirius to alert the "old crowd," names people by their full names. That helps the reader to know who he's referring to. For example, saying Arabella Figg vs. just Arabella. But I did find it odd during Dumbledore's explanation during OoP that he names everyone by their full name in saying who went to the Ministry to help save Harry. He uses Tonks' first and last name, Kingsley's first and last name--well, you get my point. It just sounded like a roll call to me. Harry, and we, know all of those people.



Diagon Nilly - Jun 3, 2004 5:46 am (#99 of 2970)
I was watching "Lord of the Rings" the other day and I made a comment to my husband about the whole quest of destroying the ring and all the casualties could have been avoided if Frodo hopped on one of the giant eagles, flew over Mt. Doom and dropped the ring in. The whole thing would have taken a day and just like that: evil's destroyed, Boramir and Theoden live and the world is a plenty in pints and pipe weed.

Likewise, LV went to the ministry anyway after everything went south. PLUS:

"Get it himself?" shrieked Bellatrix on a cackle of mad laughter."The Dark Lord, walk into the Ministry of Magic, when they are so sweetly ignoring his return? The Dark Lord, reveal himself to the Aurors, when at th moment they are wasting their time on my dear cousin?"

Don't you think that the Ministry and the Aurors would get just a little suspicious if they caught sight of a gaggle of DEs in the Dept. of Mysteries? The DE's are believed to have disbanded and/or jailed when LV was "killed." Surely, a Ministry worker would think something odd is up with LV at the sight of all those masked and hooded people casually strolling into the MOM. Also, LV is a very powerful wizard. It would have made more sense that he would have disguised himself and went in with his inside guy, just the two of them. If would have been a lot less conspicuous and doesn't seem like it's too hard to get in there after hours as there's not much security in the building.

...of course, not like it matters. The actual prophesy didn't reveal the information he was looking for anyway...unless there was more to it the Dumbledore wasn't about to let Harry hear yet...

I guess what strikes me as odd is that LV seems to pick the most unnecessarily complex was to do things. I suppose his idea to get rid of Harry is going to come from "Dr. Evil's Overly Complicated Guide On How To Kill People Unsuccessfully."



Catherine - Jun 3, 2004 5:53 am (#100 of 2970)
I laughed about your "Dr. Evil Guide" Diagon Nilly!

Well, we know that wizards can lack logic at times. Also, we know that Voldemort likes to act in secrecy. He tricks and blackmails. I guess he wanted the element of surprise. Also, I think he likes to exercise power by having someone else do his dirty work for him.

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popkin - Jun 3, 2004 6:03 am (#101 of 2970)
I laughed, too.



Loopy Lupin - Jun 3, 2004 6:57 am (#102 of 2970)
It was painful enough to learn that Snape's underwear was graying-- Catherine Allen

If I could make those smiley things work I'd have one laughing right here. Hehe.

Edit--

"Dr. Evil's Overly Complicated Guide On How To Kill People Unsuccessfully."-- Diagon Nilly

Hehe on that one too.

Of course, you know if Dr. No, Goldfinger, The Riddler, The Joker, Catwoman, had just pulled out revolvers or something, they could have ruled the world (or at least blackmailed it for ONE MILLION dollars) unfetted by that pesky James Bond or Batman. Of course that would be no fun. By the same token, I wouldn't like to read "Harry Potter and the Fatal Gunshot Wound."



septentrion - Jun 3, 2004 9:47 am (#103 of 2970)
About LV not going himself to fetch the prophecy, I think he not only wanted to hear the prophecy but if there was a chance to kill Harry Potter ? And he knew the 1st part of the prophecy, he knew he would be vainquished by the boy born at the end of July, and as he insn't keen on taking risk, he sent a bunch of DE, just in case they could kill him.



Lady Kazuma - Jun 3, 2004 12:20 pm (#104 of 2970)
I'm more concerned with the prophecy itself, then why it was retrieved in the way it was.

There has been something that's been bothering me about the prophecy, ever since I read it. In PS/SS, Voldemort clearly states that he had to kill James and Harry, but Lily needn't have died. Well, why did James need to die? He wasn't in the prophecy any more or less than Lily was. Maybe it's nothing, but it's really bothering me.



Dumbledore - Jun 3, 2004 12:43 pm (#105 of 2970)
Quote: Don't you think that the Ministry and the Aurors would get just a little suspicious if they caught sight of a gaggle of DEs in the Dept. of Mysteries? The DE's are believed to have disbanded and/or jailed when LV was "killed." Surely, a Ministry worker would think something odd is up with LV at the sight of all those masked and hooded people casually strolling into the MOM.

I always thought that the Death Eaters simply apparated right into the Hall of Prophecy, which would explain why no one in the MoM saw them. But then, of course, Voldemort then could've apparated into the Hall of Prophecy, heard the Prophecy, and then disapparated without anyone seeing him, so that theory wouldn't make sense. However, when Harry and Co. went into the MoM, it didn't appear if there was anyone there (correct me if I'm wrong), so there probably wasn't anyone in the MoM initially to catch the DE's as they entered.

As to your post, Lady Kazuma, I have no semi-logical idea why Voldemort would want to kill James. What is the quote in SS that you are speaking of?



Iverson Godfrey - Jun 3, 2004 5:16 pm (#106 of 2970)
Oh my gosh, Diagon Nilly, that was so funny I laughed out loud at work. That hasn't happened for a long time. I wonder if there are any ill tempered sea bass in the lake. I'm pretty sure there aren't any sharks. Well, at least not any with laser beams attached to their heads.

I agree that it is odd that Voldemort made such a fuss about getting the prophecy, when it does seem that he would have been able to break in the the Department of Mysteries just as easily as any of his Death Eaters and get it himself without a big scene. I also thought that Belatrix's incredulous attitude about Voldemort showing up at the Ministry of Magic, was a little ironic, considering that he popped up in the Lobby of all places. How conspicuous is that?



Mellilot Flower. - Jun 4, 2004 1:32 am (#107 of 2970)
I always had the feeling that Voldemort couldn't actually pick the prophecy up in the same way as Harry- I think because the same thought occured to me "Why didn't Voldie just go get it?" and I reasoned that out at two in the morning, so I'm not sure what evidence I have for that.

But really, if you were working in the MoM, DoM, prophecy room, you had to change the prophecy from just boy, to harry potter- would you change the charm as well so that Voldemort couldn't pick it up? Maybe the charm on the prophecy is simply no body but (specify name(s) here) can pick it up. So when the charm was modified to allow Harry to pick it up, the wizard/witch felt no need to specify that a dead person could also pick it up- ie Voldemort.

As for the need to kill James, for all we know that may have nothing to do with the half heard prophecy. And personally I think it's more accurate to look at why Lilly didn't have to die- which could lie within the agreement (if you can imagine such a thing) between Voldemort and Wormtail, maybe he simply just didn't see her as a threat without James to back her up.



Lady Kazuma - Jun 4, 2004 5:06 am (#108 of 2970)
I just thought it was "odd" because it isn't explained in the prophecy - meaning there has to be another reason.

Anyway, I'd always given the Ministry the benefit of the doubt, and thought that they did have at least some security. The reason Harry didn't see any was because the Death Eaters had already gone through. In this case, the Death Eaters could have been working under Sirius or whatever other excuse the Ministry wanted to use. Voldemort, however, would be a little harder to miss than Sirius. Any part of the security that managed to get away might have alerted Fudge that they'd seen Voldemort there.



Padfoot - Jun 4, 2004 1:55 pm (#109 of 2970)
You guys crack me up. "Dr. Evil's Overly Complicated Guide On How To Kill People Unsuccessfully." Lol.

Maybe Voldemort wanted to make a dramatic entrance in the lobby? No? Well perhaps he just wanted the DE's to kill Harry and retrieve the prophesy at the same time. Killing two birds with one stone. Or maybe this was a test of the DE's that Voldy was giving them. Maybe Voldemort is a powerful wizard who is also a little bit lacking in logic.

We don't know how much security there was, hopefully more than just one guard. Whatever there was didn't stop the DE's form waltzing on in though.



Czarina II - Jun 4, 2004 2:09 pm (#110 of 2970)
Edited by Jun 4, 2004 3:12 pm
Well, there were ten Death Eaters and probably only half as many guards at the most, considering the hour and the fact that the Ministry wasn't on high alert or anything. It probably wasn't hard for Lucius, Bellatrix and co. to get rid of the guards. What I find odd is that Harry and his friends didn't see any sign of them. Surely the DEs wouldn't have bothered to dispose of a dead guard or anything. They are rather arrogant. But NONE of the six students noticed any sign of a struggle at all.



Diagon Nilly - Jun 4, 2004 9:06 pm (#111 of 2970)
The DEs could have just Impedimented the guards to go home for the night.



S.E. Jones - Jun 4, 2004 10:42 pm (#112 of 2970)
I think you mean Imperioed the guards....

I agree, I think the DEs got rid of any security all the way to the DoM. As for why the kids didn't see any bodies or signs of a struggle, well, the MoM personel thought, at the time, that Lucius was a personal friend of the Minister, so if he showed up and zapped the first guy (the one in the Atrium) from behind, then the other DEs could Apparate in without setting off any alarms and then take out the remaining security guards quietly. They wouldn't want to leave any bodies or signs of a struggle behind because it might scare the kids away and they wanted them to walk easily into the trap.

I always thought that the Death Eaters simply apparated right into the Hall of Prophecy, which would explain why no one in the MoM saw them.

I don't think anyone can Apparate anywhere except into the Atrium, otherwise, why wouldn't people just Apparate straight to their offices instead of to the Atrium where they then have to take a lift. When Harry goes to the MoM, he sees a huge line of wizards lined up to Disapparate in an area designated for Disapparating and then an area for Apparating; incoming wizards then move to the lifts. I think all the other floors must have anti-Apparition (is that a word?) spells on them or something.



Diagon Nilly - Jun 5, 2004 7:50 am (#113 of 2970)
Whoops S.E. yes, Imperio. >turns red< I was very tired when I wrote that.

I also agree with your designated apparating/disapparting points..I don't think people could just apparate into the DOM..why would they bother keeping the door locked otherwise?



Isenduil - Jun 6, 2004 2:33 pm (#114 of 2970)
Also whats the point of even having locked doors if you could just Alohomora your way in? And if everyone bewitches their locks so Alohomora doesn't work, why have Alohomora?



fizzingwhizbees - Jun 6, 2004 8:46 pm (#115 of 2970)
This isn't really a significant odd thing, but it's an observation. I found it funny that their wands are measured in inches. I would assume it was measured in centimeters or something like that. Inches might be conventional. I don't know. Just an observation.



S.E. Jones - Jun 7, 2004 12:06 am (#116 of 2970)
Are they in inches in the British versions too? Hm, are inches one of the old "English standards" like feet, hands, etc?



Mare - Jun 7, 2004 12:13 am (#117 of 2970)
Yes, they are inches in the british version. Brittain still uses the old measurements like miles and inches. The mainland of Europe uses the metric system, with centimeters and kilometers.



S.E. Jones - Jun 7, 2004 12:18 am (#118 of 2970)
Thanks Mare!



Loopy Lupin - Jun 8, 2004 4:57 am (#119 of 2970)
Yeah, I wondered this once myself. I think Tomoe said that the French version has metrics.



hawkeyetkdchick - Jul 2, 2004 7:29 pm (#120 of 2970)
Hi guys! I'm kind of new here, but I checked and I don't think this has been discussed yet. But let me know if it has. Oh, and I guess there's spoiler in here, too, so if you haven't read books 4 or 5 yet, don't read this. Ok, this is one thing that's struck me odd. It's in book 4, at the very end when Harry is telling Dumbledore and Sirius about what happened in the graveyard. Harry tells them that his blood was used to return Voldemort to his own body or whatnot, and that Voldemort could now touch Harry. The next sentence is "For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes." What's this all about? What good could come of Voldemort being able to touch Harry? I was thinking it was maybe a strengthening in their connection with each other.. maybe that's why Harry could see what Voldemort was seeing in book 5. Do you guys have any other ideas?



S.E. Jones - Jul 2, 2004 9:13 pm (#121 of 2970)
Hawkeyetkdchick, someone just started a thread on the 'Triumphant Gleam in Dumbledore's Eye'. You may want to give it a look....



hawkeyetkdchick - Jul 2, 2004 9:56 pm (#122 of 2970)
Thanks!



Ponine - Jul 4, 2004 5:12 pm (#123 of 2970)
I am not sure whether this makes any sense or not, or perhaps wayyyy to nerdy, but I think I crossed that line a while back. I have no idea if this is something Rowling considered or not, but as far as I am aware (If I am wrong, blame Animal Planet... Wink snakes do not have ears. Thus, they cannot hear in the conventional sense, but merely pick up vibrations. This leads me to believe that a parselmouth is someone who can communicate with snakes, rather than talk per se. Of course, just standing there would not look good in the movies, so things had to be modified. If I am not mistaken, Harry himself is not sure if he actually hears things or if it is in his head, further pointing to the fact that it may be more telepathic or - I don't know - Horse whispering or wolf dancing - something, for sure....



Diagon Nilly - Jul 4, 2004 5:48 pm (#124 of 2970)
Snakes can hear but this sense is not as well-developed as its other senses. Unlike lizards, snakes don't have external ears or even a middle ear. They only have a small bone (columella) which connects the jaw bone (quadrate bone--coloured orange in diagram) to the inner ear canals. These inner ear canals work superbly as the snake moves in three dimensions! A snake picks up sound through the skin which passes on to this jaw bone. Indications are that it is not true that a snake can only hear sounds when its head is on the ground. Snakes can hear airborne sounds, though probably not as acutely as some other animals. There are also indications that the lung may act as a sound receptor.

from [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]



The giant squid - Jul 5, 2004 1:25 am (#125 of 2970)
For a more canon touch, check out the first chapter of GoF. Frank Bryce definitely heard Voldie "hissing and spitting without drawing breath." Now granted, we find out later that we're "seeing" all this through Harry's dream, so Harry may be interpreting the parseltongue for us, but I think we're meant to hear it as verbal speech.

--Mike



S.E. Jones - Jul 5, 2004 2:52 pm (#126 of 2970)
Yes, I think Harry is somehow interpretting the hissing from the snake in his head without realizing it just as he was changing his speach into hissing without realizing it in CoS during the Dueling club. Ron said he was hissing at the snake and sounded like he was egging it on, but Harry heard himself say something like "stop" (can't quite remember). It's not until, I think, he opens the entrance to the Chamber that he hears himself hissing.... So, what is the snake hearing? I'd say it is hearing the hissing Harry is making only just as it would be hearing the hissing from another snake....



Amilia Smith - Jul 5, 2004 7:33 pm (#127 of 2970)
I admit, I did not start reading the books until the second movie came out. It is easier to divorce yourself from a movie than it is from a book, and there were so many little plot holes in that movie that stood out and bugged me. I started reading in hopes that the book would explain things better, or maybe fill in the holes.

One of the main ones that bothered me: when Ron and Harry discover that the monster is a basilisk, Ron says something to the effect that someone would notice a great big snake roaming the halls of Hogwarts. This was resolved by having the basilisk move around through the pipes. However, this only explains why Harry is hearing voices in the walls; it does not explain how the basilisk is getting around the school, as the only way out of the pipes is though Moaning Myrtle's Bathroom.

I read the books, and fell in love with them, but they did not offer a better answer to my problem. I have been stewing over this for the past year and a half, and it was only yesterday that I had an epiphany. Moaning Myrtle's Bathroom moves!

If anyone else has a better explanation, I would love to hear it, because, as I said, this has bothered me for quite a while now.

Thanks!



S.E. Jones - Jul 5, 2004 8:01 pm (#128 of 2970)
Maybe it could go from Myrtle's bathroom to other pipes and from those pipes out into the open to attack it's victims and back?



Hawkeye Pierce - Jul 6, 2004 2:43 am (#129 of 2970)
This was mentioned a long while back, but I agree that Hermione not seeing her parents not very much in the past few years is very odd, and I have thought about it after a few read throughs. Maybe in England while you are at those ages you don't see your parents much, but here you do. If I were her parents I don't think I would be able to take it. I don't know maybe just American people would have a problem with it. The other thing that bothers me is that at the hospital in St. Mungos why isn't there a maternity ward. I mean wouldn't there be a place where they give birth besides the old fashioned way at home.



Mellilot Flower. - Jul 6, 2004 3:13 am (#130 of 2970)
I'm english, and I don't think that either my parents nor I could stand not seeing the other and spending enough time with them to get on their nerves... However, I think that since Hermione found out she was a witch a great divide started growing between her and her parents, they simply don't understand each other any more- though they do love each other. Hermione perhaps feels that she's better off in the wizarding world where she can keep a closer eye on how things are progressing. And just think, how many wizards now know that Hermione is one of Harry's best friends, if she went to live with her parents more often their could be a risk of her and her parents being killed, just to annoy Harry.

I don't see any reason for a maternity ward to be in St Mungo's, the only reason we need them in hospitals in the muggle world is in case of complications. These complications are much less likely with the hardy wizards. Also there are so many things in the wizarding world which are old fashioned, simply for the reason that they haven't needed to progress because wizards find it perfectly comfortable to use the old ways and with magic so easy...

The basilisk had access to a whole network of pipes throughout hogwarts, as Harry and Ron went down to the chamber many pipes branched off from the main one by which the basilisk would have been able to navigate the entire castle. We know that Mrs Norris was killed outside Myrtle's bathroom and I expect if we checked closely, or at least checked Jo's notes we'd find that all the other attacks happened either outside bathrooms or somewhere where pipes ended...



popkin - Jul 6, 2004 7:26 am (#131 of 2970)
Edited by Jul 6, 2004 8:51 am
Amilia Smith, I think I read just a couple days ago that a "mistake" was made regarding the location of Moaning Myrtle's bathroom, moving from one floor to another from one book to the next. I think it was in the "Puzzles and Mysteries" section of the Lexicon. Maybe your theory is right, and it was moved on purpose.

Well, I went back and looked, and it wasn't there. Now I don't know where I read it. This is what was in Puzzles Mysteries:

How did the Chamber of Secrets' entrance, constructed almost a thousand years ago, get hidden inside modern plumbing? The most reasonable explanation for this phenomenon is that Hogwarts castle adjusts over the years to changes in technology and architecture. After all, castles of the large stone variety weren't being built anywhere in Britain a thousand years ago, meaning that Hogwarts probably started life looking quite a bit different than it looks now. So the Chamber, in the tradition of the staircases which lead somewhere different on different days and the disappearing chamber pot room, probably adjusted its entrance to fit the form of the magical castle to which it connects.

Okay, I found it. It was in The Dark Mark, in the "Did you see that" section (or "Did you Notice that", or something like it).

At the deathday party, Hermione states that Moaning Myrtle haunts the girls' bathroom on the first floor. However, it is later proven that the bathroom is on the second floor. Also, it states at two different points that Myrtle haunts the U-bend of the toilet (Book Two), and then the S-bend of the toilet (Book Four). Make up your mind, J.K.! [thanks to Mira Miles]



Lars Smedberg - Jul 7, 2004 8:00 am (#132 of 2970)
To Hawkeye Pierce :

I have discussed this under the thread "Hermione Granger" - but I didn't have much support ! However, my theory is, that Hermione's parents never really wanted to have any children; the would probably much rather have kept on living childless and carefree... When the did have a daughter after all, they tried to do their best, but I suppose that both the parents and Hermione was quite relieved when they understood that Hermione really belonged to another world - it gave them a chance to stop the pretended "family life" none of them was very good at...

I also think that Hermione idealizes the Weasleys; to her, they are the "model family", with a lot of sibling and a mother who is the essence of motherhood...

Okay, this is just pure speculations, I admit that - but I think it might be a good deal of truth in them !



Mellilot Flower. - Jul 7, 2004 10:34 am (#133 of 2970)
"Hermione disengaged herself gently from her mother to join the group" I think this line is the most telling about Hermione's relationship with her parents.



Loopy Lupin - Jul 7, 2004 11:00 am (#134 of 2970)
Okay, this is just pure speculations, I admit that - but I think it might be a good deal of truth in them ! -- Lars Smedberg

Well, heck, no one on the Lexicon would ever engaged in pure speculation, now would we?

I'm not sure what is going on with Hermione and her parents, but, sorry, I don't see much evidence for your explanation. The best I can do for now is say, as I believe I have in prior posts on this very thread, that it seems very odd to me that Hermione manages to be away from her parents so much. Doubly odd since she is an only child.



haymoni - Jul 7, 2004 11:59 am (#135 of 2970)
I think these are professional people, probably very good at what they do - they probably attend dental conventions, publish in journals and possibly teach.

They could have very full professional lives - Hermione's love of reading and studying did not start the day she got her Hogwart's letter. I'm guessing she was left to her own devices quite often.

Her parents love her the same as other parents. Many "only" children are more mature and independent. I don't think her parents are being cruel. They just don't spoil her rotten like the Durselys.



popkin - Jul 7, 2004 5:02 pm (#136 of 2970)
I think the main reason that Hermione spends so little time with her parents is that JKR does not want to write about them. She says, "They're dentists. They're boring." - in a couple of interviews (sorry, I don't know which ones).



Dumbledore - Jul 7, 2004 5:24 pm (#137 of 2970)
In regards to the discussion about the pipes, it appears that the only opening where the basilisk could actually get out of the pipe to attack people is Moaning Myrtle's bathroom. There are pipes all over the school, but they are hidden inside the walls, so how would the basilisk be able to go through the walls to attack people?



mischa fan - Jul 7, 2004 5:36 pm (#138 of 2970)
Dumbledore, I would think that they would have drains around the castle, and utility closets with sinks so that the Basilisk could get out of the pipes.



almightykneazle33 - Jul 7, 2004 8:51 pm (#139 of 2970)
I don't know why, but this line strikes me as someone odd, not because it has anything to do with the plot, but isn't the school motto "Never poke a sleeping dragon"? Here's the quote:

"Harry smiled feebly. Deliberately causing mayhem in Snape's Potions class was about as safe as poking a sleeping dragon in the eye." (CoS Ch 11, pg 186 american)

I don't know how much speculation can actually come of that, but it stuck out to me, so thought I might throw it out there. Interesting tidbit, doncha think?

``--the almighty kneazle--``



The giant squid - Jul 7, 2004 10:45 pm (#140 of 2970)
I think the motto is more accurately translated as "Never tickle a sleeping dragon", but "poke" could fit in there as well, I suppose.

Is the motto ever mentioned after Harry first arrives at Hogwarts? Or, more specifically, is it referred to anywhere near kneazle's quote? Otherwise I'd have to chalk it up to coincidence (yes, that does happen occasionally, even in JKR's writing).

--Mike



Prefect Marcus - Jul 7, 2004 11:17 pm (#141 of 2970)
Actually the motto is never mentioned in the books. It is only on the Hogwarts' crest in the British editions.



Chris. - Jul 8, 2004 1:19 am (#142 of 2970)
Yes, it's never mentioned in the books although JKR did confirm what it mean't in an interview.


Interviewer: On the Hogwarts crest there is a motto written in Latin, what does it stand for?

JKR: It means 'never tickle a sleeping dragon', good sound practical advice.(Comic Relief, March 2001 live chat)

and...
Interviewer: Why did you choose "never tickle a sleeping dragon" as your motto?

JKR: Lots of schools have pointless mottos like 'reach for the stars' or 'persevere and endure;' I wanted something useful.(Comic Relief, March 2001 live chat)

Certainly useful! and Marcus, you changed the avatar! I started to think the last one was what you looked like!



popkin - Jul 8, 2004 6:08 am (#143 of 2970)
almightykneazle33, you might be able to get a good debate going on your post if you put it in the Snape thread. If you're not caught up on it, I can tell you that the subject has not come up.



schoff - Jul 8, 2004 10:40 am (#144 of 2970)
The motto is also listed in "Fantastic Beasts" in Dumbledore's Foreward, although it's not identified as the school's motto.



Joss - Jul 8, 2004 12:29 pm (#145 of 2970)
I have to say on the whole Hermione/ parents thing I agree with haymoni, alot of only children are more mature because you have only adults to interact with. I think this would mean that Hermione would realise the importance of her being at school and having this great oppertunity, she does go home for long periods each summer and I reckon letters are the way she communicates most during the year, she seems to be a big writer. Also alot of students at boarding schools, especially those from oversea like Hong Kong and Russia only see their parents once a year, lots of kids do it it's all for the greater good of education I suppose..



Loopy Lupin - Jul 9, 2004 6:16 am (#146 of 2970)
she does go home for long periods each summer-- Joss

Well the thing is that she doesn't; or at least hasn't in the past couple of books. She goes to the World Cup the summer after POA and stays with the Weasleys until its time for school. Then, in GoF she stays at Hogwarts over winter break. Then in OoP, she was apparently at 12 GP for quite a while before Harry got there. True, its not clear how much time she may or may not have spent with her parents in OoP before joining everyone at 12 GP, but she had obviously been there awhile. Then she backs out of joining her parents for a family ski trip during winter break in OoP. By the time OoP ends, she's seen her parents for about 2 weeks or so in a years time.



Detail Seeker - Jul 9, 2004 11:32 am (#147 of 2970)
The Quidditch World Championship was near the end of the holidays, so she could have spent quite some time with her parents. And in OoP, she will not necessarily have spent the whole time at GP12.

Besides in the age, the children are presented now, it will be starting to come to more serious conflicts between them and their parents, so the high time of having the family reunited might soon be run over by daily routine and hormones running wild. So, going to the Weasleys is a good escape a n d Hermione´s presence at the Weasleys will have an influence on Ron´s relation to his parents, too. I wonder, if we will hear about Ron staying at Hermione´s parents for a time in book 6...



zelmia - Jul 9, 2004 10:57 pm (#148 of 2970)
Well, I would say that it's fairly clear that the Grangers must have a great deal more contact with the Weasleys than is actually given in the text because way back in PA they literally drop Hermione off in Diagon Alley knowing that she will be staying with the Weasleys there at the Inn and boarding the train the next day. Clearly this has all been arranged.
In GF Hermione is already at the Burrow when Harry arrives to go the World Cup with them. Again, this had to have been arranged well in advance.
And at the very end of OP the Grangers are standing right in with the "committee" who are present when Harry, Ron and Hermione exit the platform and cross into the Muggle side of the station. ["Ah, Harry!" said Mr. Weasley, turning from Hermione's parents, whom he had been greeting enthusiastically...] Ron's and Hermione's parents are clearly on very friendly terms; and throw in the idea of Hermione wanting to be with her boyfriend over the holidays [yeah, that's right. You heard me Wink] and it becomes a little more believable, given that they are now full-fledged teenagers.



Lars Smedberg - Jul 10, 2004 4:59 am (#149 of 2970)
Boy friend ? Well... I don't think we've seen much about THAT yet ! In my opinion, the relation between Ron and Hermione seemes to be the same in book # 5 as in book # 4; it doesn't seem to have evolved a bit. The only thing that tells you that it MIGHT be something going on between the two of them is Ron being jealous when he finds out that Hermione is corresponding with Viktor - and that we had already in book # 4. (Jealousy, not correspondence !)

I think it's time for Ron & Hermione to "speed it up" now; Harry has at least kissed Cho once (although we didn't find out about it until afterwards - why ?)...



Loopy Lupin - Jul 10, 2004 9:46 am (#150 of 2970)
And in OoP, she will not necessarily have spent the whole time at GP12. -- Detail Seeker

Its true that there is not a lot of information there. But we know that the final task in GoF was June 24th; they were at school for another week after that. Harry did the Patronus Charm on August 2nd (wasn't it?). Prior to that he had been getting letters from Ron and Hermione talking about how busy they were, but they couldn't tell him more. She had been at 12 GP long enough to have favorite noses/faces from Tonks. (Something that seemed to Harry to be a regular dinner time activity.) Even if she'd only been at GP for one week prior to Harry (unlikely to me) that's about 3 weeks at the most with her parents since before the World Cup. Then, as OoP plays out, she doesn't see them at all until the end of the school year.

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Amilia Smith - Jul 10, 2004 4:21 pm (#151 of 2970)
Not only is Hermione spending more and more of her summers away from her parents, she hasn't even spent Christmas with them since Year 1. It was not just the ski trip she opted out on. In CS, she was brewing the Polyjuice Potion. In PA, she turned Harry's Christmas broom in to McGonagal. I don't remember Christmas in GF specifically, but I am pretty sure she did not go home then either.

Lars Smedberg and Haymoni, I like your theories that her parents are professionals with little time to devote to raising a child. This would also explain why Hermione (at least at the beginning of the series)is so socially inept (and insecure), and why she constantly feels the need to prove herself academically.

On another note: the drains. Mischa fan, I have trouble picturing drains and utility sinks large enough for the basilisk to exit through. If there were, they would also be large enough for a student to enter, which would give us multiple entrances to the pipes and thence to the Chamber of Secrets. This would make it increasingly unlikely that Tom Riddle would be the only student in over 1,000 years to find it. Although I do like the picture of a young Lord Voldamort spending 5 years exploring the sewers of Hogwarts.



schoff - Jul 10, 2004 7:11 pm (#152 of 2970)
Christmas in GF was the Yule Ball. No one went home that break.



zelmia - Jul 10, 2004 7:13 pm (#153 of 2970)
New topic: I have always found it odd that Harry should wear glasses at all. This means that the Dursleys would had to have taken him to get glasses at some point, and continued to do so periodically over the years. Why?
Why, when they are so quick to raise a fist (or even a frying pan) to strike him should they bother caring about his vision? I have always found this a peculiar detail.
Although from what we now know about Petunia's role in Harry's welfare, she may have had something to do with that.



popkin - Jul 10, 2004 7:18 pm (#154 of 2970)
Edited by Jul 10, 2004 8:20 pm
I read recently that JKR said that Harry's need for glasses is his greatest weakness. It's interesting that the glasses can be repaired magically, but his eyes can't. At some point it will be very, very important that Harry needs glasses to see, and he probably won't have them. So far, when he has lost his glasses it has been a short term thing. Maybe, having his mother's eyes will mean that he (like his mother, except that we haven't learned about it yet) has a sort of second sight, or that he can rely on a kind of spiritual sight.

On some other thread I read that the UK provides glasses free of charge. So, the Dursley's aren't out any money for Harry's glasses, and they wouldn't want the schools to think they were not providing for his basic needs. They probably do complain about the time it takes, but I can see them taking Harry to the optomitrist to save face.



schoff - Jul 10, 2004 7:18 pm (#155 of 2970)
It's another connection to how much Harry looks like James. James wore glasses too. (PS 12 208 US) I'm more interested in why he has "his mother's eyes" and why they're green.



haymoni - Jul 10, 2004 7:19 pm (#156 of 2970)
It could have been a school thing - "Your nephew can't see a thing - get him some glasses." The Dursleys would want everything to appear normal so they would get him some glasses - probably the cheapest things they could find.



Angel of the North - Jul 11, 2004 12:04 am (#157 of 2970)
The eyes thing - my personal interpretation in verse

In short, Harry is James on the outside and Lily on the inside.



Dr Filibuster - Jul 11, 2004 1:00 am (#158 of 2970)
We got our eyes tested at (UK) school every few years. We also got injections for things such as measles, menengitis, TB etc. Oh, and hearing tests. The nit nurse would visit in my day, but most areas have stopped her now.

In short, the Dursleys wouldn't have paid for Harry's glasses or even bothered taking him to an opticians. Let's hear it for the National Health Service.



Diagon Nilly - Jul 11, 2004 8:15 am (#159 of 2970)
Popkins: "I read recently that JKR said that Harry's need for glasses is his greatest weakness. It's interesting that the glasses can be repaired magically, but his eyes can't. At some point it will be very, very important that Harry needs glasses to see, and he probably won't have them"

So he'll have to resort to using The Force?...Or better yet, pull a "Next Karate Kid." Yeah! Smile

Seriously, I think you're right. Maybe that was one of the "chills" JK got when watching PoA. But this is for the "clues" thread.



The Wandless Wizard - Jul 12, 2004 7:35 am (#160 of 2970)
Edited by Jul 12, 2004 8:37 am
Just got around to reading all the posts on this thread, so I am going to back track a little. I'll try to sum up which line of discussion I am writing about in a heading.

Why was it necessary for Voldemort to kill James and not Lilly?
I don't think it was necessary to kill James either. I just don't think they had much other alternative. I think James sent Lilly away with Harry while he stayed to stop/stall Voldemort. James would be flinging curses at Voldemort who would have no choice but to kill James if he wanted to go after Harry. Voldemort tells Harry in SS "I killed your father first, and he put up a courageous fight." So it was necessary to go through James to get to Harry, but not necessary because of the prophecy.

Lilly on the other hand was probably shielding Harry with her body. Then Voldemort would be able to explain to her that he was just there to kill her son and she needed to step aside (Yeah like that is really going to work.). So James was necessary because he could have been a threat to Voldemort as he was probably actively attacking him. Lilly wasn't necessary until she refused to let go of Harry. So Voldemort gave Lilly a chance, but he couldn't give James one without taking a stunner to the face.

Why did Voldemort apparate into the ministry at the end of OotP but not any old time to get the prophecy?
I think Bellatrix was right that Voldemort did not want to risk tipping the Aurors off to his being alive when he still had a card to play. What changed his mind? Well remember, Voldemort had a pretty good pipeline into exactly what was going on at the ministry. He and Harry are connected and can use the connection to see through each other's eyes. I am sure he was getting a Harry-eye view of the whole fiasco. He knew his DE's were about to be defeated, he knew the prophecy had been lost, and he knew Harry was running to the atrium alone. Voldemort figured he could apparate in, kill Harry and salvage the opetation. It didn't work out that way as DD was pretty observant as well and came to harry's rescue.

Doesn't hermione miss her parents?
I get the impression that her parents are the type that push their child hard to succeed. Some parents want a well-rounded child. Others cannot be proud of anything the child does in school except get good grades. I see Hermione's parents as the latter. That is why Hermione is such a book-worm. Her parents always make sure she studied extra hard and the habit stuck. As an example, she really wants to tell her parents she made prefect in OotP because it is something they will understand. It is an acedemic achievement (not really, but it can be painted as such). So Hermione stays in the WW because she knows how important the things going on in the WW are. Her parent's let her stay becuase she tells them that is the best way to get good grades (I believe this was an actual excuse she told Harry she used once before). So I believe Hermione is manipulating her parents a bit because she feels she can be helpful in the WW.



Laurelin - Jul 12, 2004 8:32 am (#161 of 2970)
TWW wrote: Why was it necessary for Voldemort to kill James and not Lilly?

Maybe you could add to that: Why did Voldemort plan to spare Lily in the first place? I mean... come on... one murder more or less... if I was V. I wouldn't bother and waste precious time arguing whether a "stupid mother whose baby I am about to murder should make room"... :? One quick AK and done... (but sorry, I am sure this has been mentioned countless times already... Smile )



Loopy Lupin - Jul 12, 2004 8:35 am (#162 of 2970)
The nit nurse would visit in my day, but most areas have stopped her now. -- Dr. Filibuster

Nit nurse? Sorry, what is that?

Glasses-- Even if the Dursley's had to pay for Harry's specs, they most likely would. For someone who cannot see, glasses would be a basic necessity, like clothes.



Steve Newton - Jul 12, 2004 11:01 am (#163 of 2970)
Why doesn't Hermione spend more time with her parents?

Would you like to spend 24 hours a day with an insufferable know-it-all?

Neither would they.



popkin - Jul 12, 2004 11:02 am (#164 of 2970)
Edited by Jul 12, 2004 12:04 pm
I don't think the Dursleys buy Harry clothes. He wears Dudley's hand-me-downs. I think he might get his own shoes, though, but I'm not sure. Even if he does, he wears them until they are completely worn out. Harry needs to learn some charms to repair shoes and shrink clothes to fit.

Steve, that's not fair. Hermione's parents adore her. JKR just doesn't want to write about boring dentists.



Loopy Lupin - Jul 12, 2004 11:45 am (#165 of 2970)
I didn't mean to imply that they bought him new clothes; apparently they don't. They do "clothe" him however since he's obviously not running around starkers in any of the books.



schoff - Jul 12, 2004 11:39 pm (#166 of 2970)
Wandless Wizard: I don't think it was necessary to kill James either. I just don't think they had much other alternative.

I agree. I haven't been convinced yet that Voldemort was even after James. I think he was after Harry only, James just put himself in the way and Voldie wanted to teach the upstart a lesson. The more pertinent question in my mind is why Voldie didn't need to kill Lily.

Why did Voldemort apparate into the ministry at the end of OotP but not any old time to get the prophecy?

Everyone had to come in through the door in the Dept. of Mysteries. Even if Voldemort apparated into the Ministry, that doesn't mean he could get to the prophecy.



Ozymandias - Jul 12, 2004 11:42 pm (#167 of 2970)
The Dursleys do the bare minimum to provide for Harry. They are so concerned of what the neighbors might think, that they would probably spring for glasses since his eyesight is bad enough to be noticed. Harry not being able to see and not having glasses would make them look bad, so they make sure he has them.



S.E. Jones - Jun 4, 2004 9:40 am (#168 of 2970)
I don't think it is just that he wasn't going to kill Lily. I don't think he intended to kill either parent, unless he absolutely had to. He had to kill James because James actively fought him; he didn't have to kill Lily because she just stood there. So, why? Why wasn't he planning on killing either of the parents? That seems like the first thing he'd write at the top of his "to do" list that night....

Well, I know many are going to disagree with me, big time, but I think it is because Voldemort doesn't kill without a reason. Every time we've seen him kill someone, he's had a reason, as twisted as it may be. James was killed because he forcibly stood between Voldemort and what he wanted. Bertha was killed because he thought he was being merciful (which says more to his twisted view of reality than anything), since she was basically a vegatable when he got through with her. He didn't kill Frank Bryce until the old guy snuck into the old house and overheard his plans, thus becoming a liability; if he were truely ruthless, he could've just killed the old guy in his bed when they first arrived and then they would've been sure that they wouldn't be disturbed and people in town would've thought the guy died of a heart attack in his sleep. Cedric was killed so that he wouldn't be in the way during the rebirthing and because Voldie wanted to keep his return a secret and thus had to "kill the spare", from his point of view. It seems to me that Voldy may have simply seen no reason to kill Lily if he didn't have to, until she either jumped in his way or provoked him into zapping her. Lily wasn't actively trying to stop him and wasn't in any way a threat, so he offered to let her live....



schoff - Jul 13, 2004 12:13 am (#169 of 2970)
Yes, I agree SE. Voldemort is a planner. He is definitely not spur of the moment. Every move is deliberate and necessary to the overall plan, even if he occasionally forgets some "minor" detail.



Loopy Lupin - Jul 13, 2004 1:03 pm (#170 of 2970)
Here's something that struck me as odd while re-reading COS. Ron's parents go to Egypt to visit Bill for Christmas and, apparently, it was a planned trip but no one else went. (Ron, Hermione, and Harry stay behind to take the Polyjuice Potion-- yet another Christmas Hermione has missed!) But in POA, they go visit him after they've won 700 Galleons; the implication is clearly that they couldn't afford the trip without the money. So, how come they could run off to Egypt a few months previously?



Ozymandias - Jul 13, 2004 2:03 pm (#171 of 2970)
I would imagine that a trip taken only by adults would be far less expensive than one with five children coming along. Mr. and Mrs. Weasley can just apparate there, and I assume they could just stay with Bill, so the cost would be fairly small. With the kids, they'd have to pay for another method of travel (Floo powder or otherwise) and they would likely have to stay in a hotel or something, since I can't imagine Bill having a large enough home for seven extra people.



Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Jul 13, 2004 2:39 pm (#172 of 2970)
I don't know if this could really be seen as odd, but I've always wondered...How do the Dursley's send Harry Christmas presents? I mean, they don't use owl post and the muggles don't know where Hogwarts is, so regular mail couldn't get to it.



haymoni - Jul 13, 2004 5:12 pm (#173 of 2970)
We've talked about that somewhere.

My personal opinion is that Hedwig pecks them to death until they give her something to take back.

Others say that some sort of letter is sent to the parents reminding them about presents - "If your child will be staying at Hogwarts over the Holiday, please have their presents sent by December 23 at the latest."



Diagon Nilly - Jul 13, 2004 6:31 pm (#174 of 2970)
...Or there's a P.O. Box at the nearest muggle-dwelling village for Hogwarts mail.



zelmia - Jul 13, 2004 7:10 pm (#175 of 2970)
In book 1, HRH are frantically looking for Dumbledore's office when McGonagall walks through and tries to shoo the Trio away ["He received an urgent owl from the Ministry and flew to London at once..."].
Odd thing #1: She is physically carrying a stack of books rather than levitating them. She then drops them out of surprise that Harry knows about the Philosopher's Stone. ["Whatever she had expected, it wasn't that..."]
Odd thing #2: She actually stoops to collect them again instead of magicking them back into her hands or, again, levitating them as she goes along the corridor. Does she need the excercise or something?



Diagon Nilly - Jul 13, 2004 7:14 pm (#176 of 2970)
Eh, maybe it's the difference between taking the stairs and taking an elevator...



Leila 2X4B - Jul 13, 2004 7:14 pm (#177 of 2970)
Perhaps it is that she is practical. Remember when Mrs. Weasely tells the twins just because you can use magic doesn't mean you have to use it for every little thing. She probably does as much without magic that she can because depending too much on magic can be a problem.



zelmia - Jul 13, 2004 7:17 pm (#178 of 2970)
Sleeping Beauty, Baggets is spelled "baguettes." Besides: what's the point of being a talking toaster if no one wants any toast?



Leila 2X4B - Jul 13, 2004 7:25 pm (#179 of 2970)
thanks for the spelling info What do you want for a novelty item bought for 19.99 on one of Saturn's moons?



Hawkeye Pierce - Jul 14, 2004 2:52 am (#180 of 2970)
Geeze I didn't know my Hermione thought would get as much response as it did, but I am glad to see I could spark some debate. I like most of the peoples opinions, but I just believe that Hermione just doesn't feel her parents can give her anything new. She is definitely a person who needs to learn new things, so I believe that she just doesn't have any new things that her parents can teach her.



Loopy Lupin - Jul 14, 2004 6:21 am (#181 of 2970)
Eh, maybe it's the difference between taking the stairs and taking an elevator... -- Diagon Nilly

Exactly, and I, for one, head straight to the elevator when its an option. Smile



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 18, 2004 11:52 am (#182 of 2970)
The one thing I have found that seemed really odd in GOF, (US edition pp.663), when Harry and Voldemort's wands connected; " And then - nothing could have prepared Harry for this - he felt his feet lift from the ground. He and Voldemort were both being raised into the air, their wands still connected by that thread of shimmering golden light. They glided away from the tombstone of Voldemort's father and then came to rest on a patch of ground that was free and clear of graves..." My first thought was along consecrated ground, but before, when Wormtail called up the bone for the rebirth potion, (pp. 641)"The surface of the grave at Harry's feet cracked." I think what I am trying very poorly to say is why the difference in treatment of the same grave? If someone can make sense of what I just said, please enlighten me.



Loopy Lupin - Jul 19, 2004 5:10 am (#183 of 2970)
I'm afraid I'm not following you. When Harry was tied to the tombstone the grave cracked to get the bone. Then, when fighting, they a lifted away from the ground and land in a clearing of sorts. I'm not getting what is odd to you here.



popkin - Jul 19, 2004 11:46 am (#184 of 2970)
TwinklingBlueEyes, are you saying it's odd that the fight was moved from over the graves? I think that is odd. Why would the connecting of their wands have that result? I'm guessing it has something to do with the phoenix and immortality. Maybe it just moves away from death?



Loopy Lupin - Jul 19, 2004 12:06 pm (#185 of 2970)
Maybe JKR just needed to move everyone over a bit. That way, Harry's path back to Cedric and the Cup was somewhat clear. Otherwise, he could have been tackled by a DE pretty easily.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 19, 2004 3:08 pm (#186 of 2970)
That's what I was trying to say popkin. :-)




zelmia - Jul 19, 2004 11:21 pm (#187 of 2970)
It always struck me as odd that there is only one bank (Gringotts) and one newspaper (The Daily Prophet). Sure there are tabloids/magazines, but only one "reputable" media? That seems odd to me.



Lars Smedberg - Jul 20, 2004 1:11 am (#188 of 2970)
Well, Zelmia, the Wizarding World IS quite small...



The Artful Dodger - Jul 20, 2004 5:46 pm (#189 of 2970)
One thing that struck me as odd is the way Snape reads Harry's mind in Occlumency lessons. From all what we know about the mind-reading business before these lessons take place, you only need to look a person in the eye to read the thoughts (Dumbledore is doing it this way). But Snape uses his wand and says "Legilimens" to get into Harrys mind. Why?



S.E. Jones - Jul 20, 2004 6:05 pm (#190 of 2970)
There is a theory floating around the forum that there are two levels of Legilimency. The first level allows you to simply look into a person's eyes and read the emotions that are the most prominent at the moment (this could tell you if they're lying, they're scared, they're angry, etc). The second level requires both eye contact and incantation ("Legilimens") and allows you to view actual memories as well as feel their emotional state at the moment of the memory. I've always found this theory to be very plausible because Snape describes Occlumency as being necessary to keep emotions and memories that may give away a lie, and because Harry doesn't see flashes of his own memories (as he does during the Occlumency lessons) when Dumbledore, Snape, and Lupin seems to read his mind at other times (they might be using the first level of Legilimency).



zelmia - Jul 20, 2004 6:42 pm (#191 of 2970)
Or they're just really good judges of character. Dumbledore, after all is over 150 years old. He's probably just about seen it all. The other thing is that Snape is teaching Harry. He would have to go through all the steps to do show Harry how to do this, at first. Even though maybe later, a skilled Legilimens no longer requires the incantation just as Dumbledore no longer requires the incanation to ... say... snap his fingers and change all the banners in the Great Hall from Slytherin Green to Gryffindor Gold.



The Wandless Wizard - Jul 20, 2004 8:54 pm (#192 of 2970)
Here are two things that I thought was odd. First, why is Filch always cleaning the castle if he is a squib? It would take him days to clean up something that a wizard could clean in seconds with scourigify. Also, there are house elves who clean the dormitories. Why don't they clean the rest? This might belong in the Filch thread as it could be suggested that he has some other purpose for being in the castle and that cleaning is just his cover.

The second thing that struck me as odd is Harry's eyesight. You need two abilities to be a really good seeker. You need to be able to fly well (duh!) and you need good eye sight to see the snitch. I know it is not cannon, but in the SS movie when Wood explains Quiditch to Harry, Harry is able to see the snitch easily. Wood looks around trying to find it but can't. Why can Harry see it so well and others can't? He wears glassses, so his vision can't be that great. Glasses can give you close to perfect vision (20/20), but they can't give you better than perfect vision So wouldn't a seeker with really good eyes have a huge advantage over Harry?



schoff - Jul 20, 2004 8:58 pm (#193 of 2970)
My glasses give me 20/10. I can see better than people with 20/20, and I have clear clarity for the longest distance. I constantly amaze my students by how far off I can see and read traffic signs. I'm equal, if not occasionally better than my brother, who has natural 20/10.

I'm blind as a bat without them.



Susurro Notities - Jul 20, 2004 9:02 pm (#194 of 2970)
Edited by Jul 20, 2004 10:04 pm
There was a female American Olympic caliber figure skater who had lost part of one foot and an American major league baseball player with one arm. I suppose you could say that someone with a whole foot or two arms would naturally be the better athlete but nothing is superior to the combination of talent and desire. Harry appears to have enough talent and desire to overcome any disadvantage his eyesight causes.



The Wandless Wizard - Jul 20, 2004 9:32 pm (#195 of 2970)
Edited by Jul 20, 2004 10:33 pm
The point I was trying to make was that Harry not only can play seeker, but he can excel at it. And there is some evidence he can see the snitch better than most other people. The movie showed this most clearly, but the books hint at it, especially with the flying keys at the end of SS ("[Harry] had a knack for spotting things others didn't", ch. 16 of SS). Schoff answered my post though. Harry probably just has really good vision with his glasses. So his success in Quiditch is partly his and partly his optometrist's.



Susurro Notities - Jul 20, 2004 9:47 pm (#196 of 2970)
Edited by Jul 20, 2004 10:58 pm
The point I was trying to make is that to be on an Olympic figure skating team or to be a major league baseball player is to excel.



The Wandless Wizard - Jul 20, 2004 10:00 pm (#197 of 2970)
Edited by Jul 20, 2004 11:03 pm
True Susurro. But Jim Abbott was a terrible hitter. He tried to spend most of his career in the American League so he could be protected by the DH (pitchers do not have to hit). He was able to work around his handicap. He did not excel in the area he was supposed to be handicapped. There is evidence that Harry is better at seeing things which is where I thought he should actually have a disadvantage (he actually excels at his handicap). The people you mentioned used their other abilities to work around their handicaps. This would be comparable if Harry listened for the snitch because he could not see it well. Yet Harry seems to have really good vision and seems to be able to see small things from a distance even though he wears glasses. Again, schoff enlightened me that glasses can help some people do this. I hope that clears up what I meant.

Edit: Jim Abott is the name of the one armed baseball player.



schoff - Jul 20, 2004 10:10 pm (#198 of 2970)
Funny how the only time I tried contacts, my eyesight was actually worse than my glasses! That and the fact that I just couldn't get used to there not being a frame to look through pretty much guarentees I won't get them again!

Rain sucks, though. I totally sympathized with Harry in PA.



popkin - Jul 20, 2004 10:16 pm (#199 of 2970)
About Filch cleaning the castle.... I have long suspected that Dumbledore keeps Filch around for the same reason that he hired on Dobby - no one else wants him. Someone else could do Filch's job better, but it's Filch's job and it makes him useful. In spite of all the complaining, I think Filch feels like an important member of the Hogwarts Staff - underappreciated, but nonetheless important.



Susurro Notities - Jul 20, 2004 10:24 pm (#200 of 2970)
Edited by Jul 20, 2004 11:25 pm
Thank you The Wandless Wizard I could not remember the name of either athlete. I thank you also for your clarification "excels at his handicap". Still I think that Mr. Abbot had to work with his handicap to some degree - there must be a balance and weight / accuracy and velocity issue when a pitcher lacks an arm. The figure skater certainly excelled at her handicap. There is no way to work around missing 1/3 of a foot when your sport is all about footwork! Unlike Harry this figure skater had no effective remedy. Therefore I still contend that talent, desire, and (of course) practice, practice, practice have as much influence on Harry's success as his Optometrist.

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S.E. Jones - Jul 20, 2004 10:51 pm (#201 of 2970)
Maybe Harry's prowess as a Seeker is from better eyesight but from being able to follow the snitch better with his eyes than most players once it's spotted. We've seen other instances where Harry seems acutely aware of his environment (someone even tried to start a thread about any magical properties his neck might have because of all the times he feels the hairs there raising up when someone's around). I think that might be it. It's not that he can see the snitch better, just that he can follow it better. With his glasses he might have near perfect vision, but without them he's blind, and there's the importance.....

Just my two knuts.....



Steve Newton - Jul 21, 2004 5:52 am (#202 of 2970)
Wandless Wizard,

Baseball is my subject. Sorry. Jim Abbott was not a one armed baseball player. He was a one handed baseball player. The one armed player was Pete Gray. He played for the St. Louis Browns in 1945. He was in 77 games. The Browns moved to Baltimore in the early 50s and are now the Orioles.



Loopy Lupin - Jul 21, 2004 10:32 am (#203 of 2970)
someone even tried to start a thread about any magical properties his neck might have because of all the times he feels the hairs there raising up when someone's around-- S.E. Jones

That was a thread. But it didn't last too long. We pretty much figured that his neck wasn't magical, but tingled all the time because he forgets to wash it. Smile

Even if Harry's glasses give him 20/10 vision, they don't give him the same peripheral vision as someone without glasses. Obviously, the glasses haven't been a limitation to Harry's Quidditch ability and I doubt they are going to start to be at this point. This issue has always struck me as a little odd as well. But, I suppose if there are good hitters in baseball who wear glasses and good tennis players who wear glasses, then its not extremely odd.

As to Filch, scourgify would seem to be the easier method, but I suppose Dumbledore has his reasons for keeping him around. That aside, I'd imagine that a lot of squibs would want to remain somehow part of the wizarding world. (At least it seems that Filch does, and we know he's tried to overcome his limitations by the Kwikspell course.) And, with no magic powers, I'd imagine that they, squibs, probably are relegated to manual labor and other "less glamorous" tasks. So, its probably not a bad gig for a squib.



Potions Mistress - Jul 21, 2004 12:42 pm (#204 of 2970)
Haven't seen this one yet, so I thought I'd bring it up: there seems to be quite a few flower names: Petunia, Lily, Pansy, Sprout (well, as the herbology teacher, I can understand that...) Hmm... Also, Dolores in Spanish means "sorrow, pain." How a appropriate! Smile



Loopy Lupin - Jul 21, 2004 1:26 pm (#205 of 2970)
I think there is a thread called "What's in a Name?" that discusses all these flower connections in detail. Smile



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 21, 2004 1:37 pm (#206 of 2970)
"Even if Harry's glasses give him 20/10 vision, they don't give him the same peripheral vision as someone without glasses."

Maybe his glasses correct only one part of his vision, ie: near-sighted, far-sighted. I think the many references to his mothers eyes reveals that Harry can see in more than one way...ok, that didn't even make sense to me. Excuse the ring...



contess lillein asend - Jul 21, 2004 2:09 pm (#207 of 2970)
Why does he need glasses to start with. Can't he fix his own vision? Like Hermione and Madame Pomfrey can shrink teeth. He has money now, he could go Lasix.



Padfoot - Jul 21, 2004 2:29 pm (#208 of 2970)
But this story takes place what, 10 years ago? Did that type of surgery exist then?

I think the need for Harry to wear glasses is going to play a part in the future books somehow. As many others have mentioned, it will have something to do with Harry having Lily's eyes.



DJ Evans - Jul 21, 2004 6:21 pm (#209 of 2970)
It has also stuck me as odd that though Harry had his Mother's eyes--yet he needed glasses like his Dad did? Now that I think on it, as far as I know, is there anything else about Harry described as being like Lily's? I know Harry has his Dad's hair, has the same build as his Dad, on the Quidditch team like his Dad was, the Stag, etc.... So besides the eyes, what is there of Lily in him? Hmmmm? Does anybody know of something that I'm not remembering here?

Later, Deb



Loopy Lupin - Jul 21, 2004 6:36 pm (#210 of 2970)
Maybe his glasses correct only one part of his vision, ie: near-sighted, far-sighted.-- Twinkling Blue Eyes

As someone who's pretty darn nearsighted, I would have to say that the times Harry has woken up and found everything "blurry" suggests to me that he is near-sighted. If he were far-sighted only that which is pretty close to his face would be blurry. Hence, I think his peripheral would not be very good.



Madame Librarian - Jul 21, 2004 6:47 pm (#211 of 2970)
Deb, sometimes I suspect that people who knew James and Lily would say that Harry also has his mother's heart. Hokey, I know, but despite his penchant for breaking rules (ah, another James-like trait), Harry is not the arrogant type James seemed to be based on the pensieve memory and others' comments. Harry is...well...sweeter, at least in the earlier books. Maybe that's more like Lily.

Ciao. Barb



DJ Evans - Jul 21, 2004 7:34 pm (#212 of 2970)
Thanks Barb, I had forgotten Harry's "heart", that (as you said) would definitely be Lily's. It was just as I was posting about the eye color and glasses, it dawn on me how many things he has in common with James but not Lily. It seemed so one sided, I knew there had to be something else that he shares with Lily. Thanks!

Later, Deb



S.E. Jones - Jul 21, 2004 9:48 pm (#213 of 2970)
Yes, it always struck me as odd that he looks so much like his dad. I even created a theory around it. I have this strange feeling that it will be very important that Harry looks so much like James in the future and that it might tie into Wormtail's lifedebt he owes to Harry.



DJ Evans - Jul 22, 2004 7:28 am (#214 of 2970)
Sarah, have you already posted your theory somewhere, in more detail? If you have, please let me know where, I would really like to read it. Like some, it just seemed we nearly get beat over the head about Harry having Lily's eyes and so much is put on that. But really, there is more to connect Harry to James than to Lily.

Later, Deb



S.E. Jones - Jul 22, 2004 7:40 am (#215 of 2970)
No I haven't. Not really sure where to put it.... Now I know why this is so difficult for the Sorting Hat....

Deb, try here (Predictions for Book 6 and 7).



KWeldon - Jul 25, 2004 5:49 pm (#216 of 2970)
In my more cynical moments I've wondered if JKR stresses Harry's resemblance to James so often so that there is no question that Harry is James' son, particularly when theories such as Lupin having a thing for Lily are flying about. As if she thought, "Harry's parentage is one debate the fans are never going to have."



Professor V - Jul 25, 2004 6:53 pm (#217 of 2970)
I guess the thing that I found most odd is Harry's lack of curiosity about his parents and their lives, where they are buried, what their careers were, etc...

Now I know the reason it isn't in the books is we the reader didn't need to know it yet so neither did Harry. Also there is the whole business of the Dursley's attitude about his parents and them never being mentioned in the home.

Anyway, that is what has always struck me as odd.

Ruby



Steve Newton - Jul 26, 2004 6:13 am (#218 of 2970)
What stikes me aS odd is the Dursley's behaviour toward Harry. It seems over the top. Worse that Cinderella is treated. Perhaps, the Dursley's aren't too smart but it would seem to me that if they wanted to turn Harry away from magic they would have treated him well in the Muggle world. The way they treated him before the first Hogwart's letter would have gotten them sent to jail as child abusers.



Loopy Lupin - Jul 26, 2004 7:40 am (#219 of 2970)
Perhaps, the Dursley's aren't too smart but it would seem to me that if they wanted to turn Harry away from magic they would have treated him well in the Muggle world. The way they treated him before the first Hogwart's letter would have gotten them sent to jail as child abusers-- Steve Newton

Well, I don't think they are going to win any awards for intelligence, but child abusers come in all grades of intellect. We know that Petunia is a little more knowledgeable about the wizarding world than she lets on, and there is obviously a back story between Petunia and her sister. Perhaps that will explain why they chose to treat Harry with such contempt.



Catherine - Jul 26, 2004 11:21 am (#220 of 2970)
Steve, you are right that Harry is treated terribly at the Dursleys. I think that JKR may be mitigating that somewhat by showing some OoP members confronting that at the train station at the end of OoP. I also am hoping that Petunia and Dudley can reach some kind of understanding with Harry, even if they never do really have a warm fuzzy relationship. Somehow, I think Vernon Dursley is a lost cause.

But I think that Harry had new insight into Petunia at the end of OoP, and I would like for them to have respect for each other, even if they can't like or love each other.



Mrs. Sirius Black - Jul 26, 2004 6:46 pm (#221 of 2970)
Hello everyone! I'm a new poster on this forum, so I apologize in advance if I am posting to the wrong thread, blunder with my poor HTML skills, or bring up things that may have been discussed in the past. If this be the case, maybe someone could kindly refer me to the proper thread or the appropriate previous postings.

And now with all that out of the way, on to the things that struck me as odd.

First of all, I wonder if anyone has brought up Hermione's odd comment about the baby DE in OotP. I'm quoting from the American hardback edition:

The Death Eater had pulled his head out of the bell jar. His appearance was utterly bizarre, his tiny baby's head bawling loudly while his thick arms flailed dangerously in all directions, narrowly missing Harry, who ducked. Harry raised his wand but to his amazement Hermione seized his arm. "You can't hurt a baby!"

This comment probably has little significance, but it practically leaps out from the page every time I read it. The whole addition of a baby-headed DE in this chapter seemed odd to me as well. Perhaps JKR has thrown this in as a clue? Perhaps I am reaching? Anyone have thoughts on this?

In addition to the baby DE thing, I also wanted to ask about JKR's references to Lily's eyes. Does anyone else find it rather strange that when speaking of Harry's physical similarity to his father, JKR always goes about it by saying something along the following: You look exactly like your father. Or, you look a lot like your dad. But when describing his eyes, if memory serves me correctly, JKR says something like Harry has his mother's eyes. Or that they are Lily's eyes. The one quote from OoTP I found goes like this:

"Yeah, I see what you mean, Remus," said a bald black wizard standing farthest back; he had a deep, slow voice and wore a single gold hoop in his ear. "He looks exactly like James." "Except the eyes," said a wheezy-voiced, silver-haired wizard at the back. "Lily's eyes." (emphasis mine)

Now I know this is probably nothing more than a way to further stress the importance of Harry having Lily's eyes, but it also makes me think that perhaps Harry might literally have Lily's eyes. Has anyone considered this as a possibility? Perhaps Lily used a switching spell before she was AK'd and gave Harry her eyes. How this would advance the plot I have no idea, but it is something I've been thinking about. It's all a bit too science fiction for my taste and I'm only posting this as an idle thought I had on a re-reading of the books. Perhaps it can lead to a fun debate.

By the way, I apologize for not having the actual descriptive quotes of Lily's eyes on hand at the moment. I've lent all my books save OotP out to a friend at the moment, and am suffering from a severe case of separation anxiety! Time to buy a second set I guess!



The Wandless Wizard - Jul 26, 2004 7:15 pm (#222 of 2970)
Welcome, Mrs. Sirius Black. I am so sorry to hear about the loss of your husband, Mr. Sirius Black. Anway, as far as I can tell, you are are in a close enough thread to get along with.

The Hermione thing is slightly odd. I always just assumed the baby head incident was for a little bit of mystery and a little bit of comic relief. The DoM needed to have all sorts of weird things, and anything that could turn a man into half of a baby qualifies as weird. Hermione's response was kind of humorous. But, it could very well be more.

The part about Harry having Lilly's eyes. I think that is just how we phrase it. Since Harry only has the one thing in common with his mother, people say he has her eyes. If he only had one thing in common with James, he would have James' hair or he would have James' nose. However, Harry has everything else in common with James. So you can't say Harry has James' everything but the eyes. You say Harry looks just like James. I am pretty sure JKR made the resemblence to James so close to avoid any questions about his parentage (they still pop up though). She didn't want people to think he might be Voldemort's son. However, she gave him Lilly's eyes, and I feel this will be important for a reason. I don't think they will actually be Lilly's eyes though. For one thing, I don't think she wore glasses. For another, swapping eyes is just...[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]



Gimpy Rickman - Jul 26, 2004 7:39 pm (#223 of 2970)
I have extreemly poor eyesight, it's actually dificult to find contacts strong enough for me, but despite wearing glasses for most of my life, I have always had very good peripheral vision. I don't see things very clearly beyond the edges of my glasses, but I do see them, and even better if they are moving. I'm told that it isn't common among the near-sighted, and my sister even has poor peripheral vision despite being 20/20, so maybe Harry just has an uncommon trait like me (and I'm pure muggle).



Susurro Notities - Jul 26, 2004 8:26 pm (#224 of 2970)
"You can't hurt a baby" Is this a reference to Harry as a baby being hurt by Voldemort. If so - what importance would this reference have?



schoff - Jul 26, 2004 9:12 pm (#225 of 2970)
Even if Harry's glasses give him 20/10 vision, they don't give him the same peripheral vision as someone without glasses.

Oh, so not true. Technically, peripheral vision is anything that is not the main focus of your eyesight (which is really only a pinpoint of space). I have excellent peripheral vision also, like Aprl--and we're not abnormal.

It's really the movement that's important, not the details. I teach Driver Education, and it's often stressed how important your peripheral vision is while driving. It gives you the whole picture, not the pinpoint you're focused on.



Mrs. Sirius Black - Jul 26, 2004 10:19 pm (#226 of 2970)
Susurro wrote: "You can't hurt a baby" Is this a reference to Harry as a baby being hurt by Voldemort. If so - what importance would this reference have?

See, if it did in fact cleverly hint that Harry, as a baby, could not be AK'd (maybe there is some sort of protection charm on babies in the first place?) then it makes me think that perhaps the AK curse would eventually "kick-in" so to speak once Harry comes of age. In other words, the curse still has not claimed its victim, and either Harry or Voldemort will be claimed by it in the end. In essence they are both struggling against each other for the right to one life, as one of them must die in debt to the as yet unfulfilled AK curse. This seems to tie in nicely with the prophecy as well "for neither can live while the other survives..."

Just a thought. Does any of this make sense, or have I completely lost my marbles? Please feel free to tear this apart, as I'm only conjecturing.



The giant squid - Jul 27, 2004 12:58 am (#227 of 2970)
Does any of this make sense, or have I completely lost my marbles?


A little of both, I think. Don't feel bad, though, most of the theories here have a little bit of crazy behind them, and yours makes as much sense as any. Actually, I can see something like that coming to pass--the AK wasn't blocked, just delayed somehow. Although, that does seem like something from a Greek tragedy...

--Mike



contess lillein asend - Jul 27, 2004 4:47 am (#228 of 2970)
Two items..

I found it interesting in the movie SS, when Wood shows Harry the snitch for the first time. Harry follows it everywhere but if you look at Wood he is looking everywhere but the right place.

Two - Neither can live while the other survives - Are they not doing that now. They are both living and both surviving.



ShelterGirl - Jul 27, 2004 5:27 am (#229 of 2970)
My whole life I have been told that I have my father's eyes. No one ever says, "Wow, your eyes look just like your father's." This has escalated to the point where one time I told someone I had my father's eyes and they said, "Doesn't he need them anymore?" Which is true, but that isn't the point. Smile I think it's just a convenient way of describing something, i.e. they could just as easily say, "You have your grandmother's stubbornness."

As far as the baby DE goes, it was somewhat humorous to me, but it also creeped me out to no end. In fact, it so struck me as creepy that I also wondered if something else was there, written between the lines. I wondered if that bell jar was going to be put to use later...



Madame Librarian - Jul 27, 2004 7:10 am (#230 of 2970)
That baby-head DE business in the battle scene bothered me, too. Is it just another instance of Hermione's sympathetic nature kicking in and making a foolish decision based on it (like her efforts with S.P.E.W)? It may bode a lack of nerve when it comes to using a killing curse in battle...until, perhaps, she's lost someone near and dear. Not sure.

Ciao. Barb



haymoni - Jul 27, 2004 10:23 am (#231 of 2970)
Maybe with her Time-Turner experiences and being an insufferable know-it-all, Hermione was more in-tune to what was actually happening to that DE.

He (or rather his head) was going back in time. When he was a baby, he was innocent. He hadn't done anything yet to become a DE.

"You can't hurt a baby!"



Loopy Lupin - Jul 29, 2004 12:07 pm (#232 of 2970)
This just came up in the new Cho thread, but I think I'll post it here too. It always struck me as odd that there was not even a slight suspicion that Harry was responsible for Cedric's death in any way. He was the last to see Cedric alive and mysteriously appeared in the middle of the pitch, clutching his dead body. In the muggle world, Harry'd be on death row by now.



zelmia - Jul 29, 2004 12:24 pm (#233 of 2970)
Actually, LL, wasn't that the whole problem in OP? People didn't know what to believe because of precisely what you describe.
True, for the last week of school, there didn't appear to be any suspicion cast on Harry because of Dumbledore's edict to leave Harry alone.
But once the initial shock of it had worn off, and certainly over the next summer, as we read in OP, people began to wonder. Even Seamus Finnegan, Harry's friend and Dorm Mate, wasn't entirely convinced of Harry's innocence.



schoff - Jul 29, 2004 12:26 pm (#234 of 2970)
Crouch Jr. took the main blame for everything. He set up the trap for Harry, and Cedric fell into it.

The "accident" is that Cedric was the one murdered and not Harry--who was the intended victim of Crouch Jr's plan. Most likely with the help of an unknown accomplice at the other end of the portkey (but not Voldemort, oh no).

It's more odd that no one ever gave a cover-up reason for how Cedric died. Did they think he tripped and fell in front of a wand that happened to magically be casting AK on its own?



Madame Librarian - Jul 29, 2004 12:29 pm (#235 of 2970)
Loopy Lupin, I think there was some suspicion. It was just the force of DD's handling of the situation that prevented Fudge and others (Malfoy maybe) from going after Harry. I know that in OoP, Harry was accused of irregularities regarding the whole Triwizard thing, although it was more of a whispered rumor mongering campaign, not anything official.

Ciao. Barb



Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 29, 2004 12:30 pm (#236 of 2970)
Yes, I still feel that Harry was suspected by some people of having killed Cedric. No one ever comes out and says it, but I'm sure they were thinking it.



schoff - Jul 29, 2004 12:39 pm (#237 of 2970)
I don't think people actually thought Harry murdered Cedric, it was his claims that Voldemort did it. At most, they may have suspected Harry of being a contributer to Cedric's death (intentional or not), but not his true killer.

Of course, as I say this, someone is going to come up with a quote I can't yet find proving the exact opposite.



haymoni - Jul 29, 2004 2:28 pm (#238 of 2970)
Didn't people die in some of the earlier Tri-Wizard tournaments?

Maybe people weren't too shocked by it - if it was described as an "accident".



Hermione Weasley - Jul 29, 2004 4:22 pm (#239 of 2970)
Hey, I know this is a bit off thread at the moment but it is a "thing which struck me as odd"...

In GoF when the Weasley's arrive for the QWC and rent their tent site the dialogue is as follows:

"Weasley-two tents, booked a couple of days ago?" "Aye," said Mr. Roberts, consulting a list tacked to the door. "You've got a space up by the wood there. Just the ONE night?" (emphasis mine) "That's it," said Mr. Weasley

Why would Mr. Weasley only rent a tent space for only one night at the QWC when it has been known to go one for "five days last time" (GoF, US, pg 64)?? Wouldn't it make sense to just rent the space and pay each additional night?? Or is maybe that was what he was doing in the first place? I think I just confused myself....

Anyone??



zelmia - Jul 29, 2004 9:07 pm (#240 of 2970)
In real life you can reserve tent space for, say a night or two, and then pay for additional days once you occupy that space if necessary -- assuming, of course that no one else has reserved it. I guess I kind of assumed this is what Arthur was thinking since he wouldn't want to pay any unneccary fees if he could avoid them.
And since we learn from Robert (the Caretaker, Camp Host, or whatever) that they usually just get casual or "drive by" business, I would think that the Wizarding Community would know that also. So most Wizards probably just reserved the space for a night or two, planning to pay for additional nights if need be as the Match went long.
Robert finds it peculiar that there were reservations at all, so reserving a space for "one night" probably does seem odd to Robert, since he doesn't really know why all those people are there anyway.



contess lillein asend - Jul 30, 2004 12:42 am (#241 of 2970)
Hermione - feel that Arthur might be in on Fred and George's prophetic knowledge?



ex-FAHgeek - Jul 30, 2004 5:05 am (#242 of 2970)
---quote--- Even Seamus Finnegan, Harry's friend and Dorm Mate, wasn't entirely convinced of Harry's innocence. ---end quote---

Actually, I never got that impression from that first scene. I felt that Seamus had to endure a couple of arguments and worry that he wasn't going to get to return, but that he just rolled his eyes and didn't really blame Harry for it... until Harry insulted his mother. He never seemed suspicious of Harry, just angry.

Personally, I was on Seamus' side for that first argument. He tells Dean and Harry that he was worried that he might not be able to come back because his Mom was influenced by the Prophet articles and Harry blows his top. Very poor behavior on Harry's part.



Loopy Lupin - Jul 30, 2004 5:27 am (#243 of 2970)
Even Seamus Finnegan, Harry's friend and Dorm Mate, wasn't entirely convinced of Harry's innocence.

Again, there is no doubt that there was a lot of "not knowing what to think" going on, but I never got the impression that Seamus even pondered "Harry's innocence," much less doubted it.



Steve Newton - Jul 30, 2004 5:54 am (#244 of 2970)
I am rereading OOTP and found this about the Hog's Head. This comment refers to chapter 16 of OOTP, entitled, strangely enough, 'In the Hog's Head.'

As the trio enters "The floor seemed at first glance to be earthy, though as Harry stepped onto it he realized that there was stone beneath what seemed to be the accumulated filth of centuries."

The Hog's Head would seem to be very old. Is the accumulated filth of centuries the treatment the WW has given the other magical races? Don't know.



contess lillein asend - Jul 30, 2004 11:28 am (#245 of 2970)
Wasn't it the headquarters of the Goblin rebellion in 1612, or something to that effect.



Steve Newton - Jul 30, 2004 11:41 am (#246 of 2970)
That certainly rings a bell.

Are any other floors mentioned?



zelmia - Jul 30, 2004 1:20 pm (#247 of 2970)
As for Seamus's behaviour, it's true that Harry basically provoked him. But what I was referring to is that Seamus is the only character who actually comes out and says the words, "Look... what did happen that night when... you know, when... with Cedric Diggory and all?"
Seamus and Harry are friends, and as far as I'm concerned, Seamus did the right thing. Rather than having to wade through rumours and innuendo, he should be allowed to ask Harry a direct question and get a straight answer from Harry, himself. But Harry, once again, flouts an opportunity for understanding and compassion, instead responding with hostility and accusation.
And as that section goes on, and Seamus becomes more angry with Harry for his flippant remarks about his mother, I got the impression that, in his anger, Seamus used the opportunity to speak his mind freely - as people often do when they are upset or angry: "You [Ron] believe all the rubbish he's come out with about You-Know-Who, do you, you reckon he's telling the truth?" (OP ch. 11)



schoff - Jul 30, 2004 7:49 pm (#248 of 2970)
Hmm. Seamus had every right to ask Harry what happened, but Harry had every right not to answer. Both of them were too worked up to carry on a reasonable discussion.



Hermione Weasley - Jul 31, 2004 5:24 pm (#249 of 2970)
"Contess Lillein Asend - Jul 30, 2004 1:42 am (#241 of 248) Hermione - feel that Arthur might be in on Fred and George's prophetic knowledge? "

No, not really, I was just wondering if that was unusual because it struck me as odd at the moment but Zelmia's explanation greatly clarified things. Thanks Zelmia!!

(It would be cool thought if the Weasleys' did have some Inner Eye as Sybill would say...but I guess that's for a later book! Smile

I am wondering where this forum is centralized because it's 8:24 pm here and when I posted it says 6:24 pm. Anyone know?



S.E. Jones - Jul 31, 2004 5:40 pm (#250 of 2970)
Hermione Weasley, the Forum's server (World Crossing) is located in California (PST)....

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Hermione Weasley - Jul 31, 2004 5:41 pm (#251 of 2970)
Oh ok thanks!!!!!



septentrion - Aug 8, 2004 9:53 am (#252 of 2970)
two things seems odd to me :

how is it that Harry, Neville, Draco...'s detention takes place in the forbidden forest ? And for a dangerous task. To send 11 years old children to track some kind of unknown creature which slains unicorn is more like sending them to harm or death than to punish them. It was useful for the plot but "odd".

When H/R/H makes the polyjuice, they need to pick the fluxweed at full moon, i.e. at night, and I wondered how they managed to get it. They probably went out at night with the invisibility cloak but where did they get it ? In the greenhouses ? in the forest ? And it isn't mentioned anywhere that Snape could have some in advance for his classes.



zelmia - Aug 8, 2004 12:57 pm (#253 of 2970)
Back in CS, when Harry picks up the Diary from the flooded bathroom, the first thing he and Ron notice is that there is nothing written in it. Even Hermione tries to get the Diary to "reveal" its secrets.
The thing is, NOBODY considers the fact that this book has been sitting in a pool of water for who-knows-how-long before Harry picks it up. They are all used to using quills and ink at Hogwarts, yet not one of the Trio, two of whom were raised in the Muggle world, considers the very credible possibilty that the ink was simply washed away.



Steve Newton - Aug 8, 2004 2:42 pm (#254 of 2970)
Isn't it odd that all of the Dursley's go to King's Cross Station to pick up or drop off Harry?

In the readings of the books by Jim Dale, when he says the name of the train station it sounds like 'King's Crustacean.' A very different critter.



The Wandless Wizard - Aug 8, 2004 3:19 pm (#255 of 2970)
Steve, I get the impression that the Dursley's make a day of it. They refuse to go to London just for Harry. So they go shopping or do whatever English people do when they visit London. That way they can convince themselves that they are not being nice to Harry, but wanted to go to London anyway. Might as well take the Potter kid along. I think they said something like this in SS/PS when Harry asked if he could get a ride to London.

"We're going up to London tommorow anyway, or I wouldn't bother." Ch 6, pg 112 American Scholastic Paperback SS.

Granted this trip to London was to remove Dudley's tail and not shop, plus Vernon wanted Harry stuck in London trying to find Platform 9 and 3/4. But I think they tell themselves that every year. "We're going to London [whichever day Harry needs a ride] anyway, or I wouldn't bother".

Zelmia, would all the ink completely run off the page? In my experience with wet paper it just smudges and smears and the paper takes on a slightly different color. So you can still tell there once was ink, you just can't tell what it said. With the diary, there was no ink of any kind, smudged or not.



Steve Newton - Aug 8, 2004 5:31 pm (#256 of 2970)
TWW, I think you might be right. I can't think of any occasion when all of the Dursley's don't go together, except Vernon to work. They all go to the zoo in book one and all go to the lawn award in book 5. It could mean something though and it does seem strange. Maybe its just a reflection of the family that Harry doesn't have.



Loopy Lupin - Aug 9, 2004 6:11 am (#257 of 2970)
They are all used to using quills and ink at Hogwarts, yet not one of the Trio, two of whom were raised in the Muggle world, considers the very credible possibilty that the ink was simply washed away. -- Zelmia

Well, I was raised in the muggle world, and I really don't know what I would expect ink and parchment to do. I know that if I write something in ball point, I wouldn't have expected it to be washed away. Smeared maybe, but not completely clean.



Ozymandias - Aug 9, 2004 3:32 pm (#258 of 2970)
I use fountain pens, and although it's not on parchment, I can't imagine parchment being that much different from paper. Anyway, once the ink is dry, it behaves pretty much like the ink from a ballpoint. It would be pretty illegible (perhaps more so than a ballpoint) but not completely gone.



zelmia - Aug 9, 2004 4:03 pm (#259 of 2970)
Well forget the ink then. What's more important is that Hermione says that she didn't bring her personal copy of Hogwarts, A History with her to school (CS) because she didn't have room due to all the Lockhart books. She complains that there is a 2-week waiting list for it from the library. So why doesn't she just use one of the school owls and ask her parents to send it to her? I never understood that.



Hollywand - Aug 9, 2004 5:54 pm (#260 of 2970)
There are two types of ink: waterproof, and non-waterproof. The non-waterproof makes it easier to correct, and is also not lightfast and less expensive dyes. Lots of cartridge pens use non-waterproof ink, so a letter mailed on a rainy day could have the ink disappear, or it will fade in a relatively short time. Parchment is much heavier, plate finish paper to simulate goat skin or sheep skin, which is what Europeans first wrote on as 'vellum".



Susurro Notities - Aug 9, 2004 9:42 pm (#261 of 2970)
Zelmia,
It might take two weeks or more for the owl to fly to Muggle land, for Hermione's parents to find the book, and for the owl to fly back to Hogwarts with the heavy text.
Of course she would then have the text for future reference but teens are not known for their foresight.
Or maybe she thought that if she sent for the book she would have to carry it home at the end of the year in her already burdened book bag.



Chad Peters - Aug 9, 2004 10:19 pm (#262 of 2970)
There's always been a few things that bothered me. Most centering around the numerous goblin rebellions and wars that have supposedly happened.

I have to wonder, how they went unnoticed by muggles? Or, if they even did. I mean, logistically speaking would it really be possible to obliviate all witnesses to a battle?

Another thing that strikes me odd, is the school nurse. It would seem that a student could do the most horrendous thing, and so long as he or she doesn't kill anyone, the nurse wouldn't tell a soul what happened.

Finally, Why haven't we seen any other family of Harry's? Sure, you could say that Tonks is his cousin by marriage, but I'm talking about James's side of the family. Grandparents, aunts, uncles...



zelmia - Aug 10, 2004 12:35 am (#263 of 2970)
They're all dead. Hmm... Reminds me of an old Toast I once knew...



Steve Newton - Aug 10, 2004 5:45 am (#264 of 2970)
Chad,

About the nurse. In the Muggle world medical people are not supposed to tell anyone about your condition. There are a few exceptions, gunshots for instance. So this sort of parallels the real world.



Loopy Lupin - Aug 10, 2004 6:24 am (#265 of 2970)
In the Muggle world medical people are not supposed to tell anyone about your condition-- Steve Newton

That's true but not when it comes to parents/kids, spouses, or other "immediate" family. So, it is odd (as I think has come up before in this thread) that underage wizards/witches would be petrified in the hospital ward for several months without so much as a visit.



Susurro Notities - Aug 10, 2004 6:25 am (#266 of 2970)
Edited by Aug 10, 2004 7:29 am
Steve Newton,
Good explanation except there are no exceptions. The press might be aware that a gunshot victim has been taken to a particular hospital but the nurse (Dr., hospital...) cannot reveal any information other than condition - good, critical, stable... - In fact that information can only be revealed if the patient has agreed to put their name on the hospital census for public access. New HIPPA laws in the US make ALL patient information confidential unless the patient signs a release form.
Loony Lupin,
The new HIPPA laws require that the person receiving personal information about the patient be the patient's DPOA or that the patient sign a release of information. This is true even if the recipient is a close personal relative of the patient. Parents may be told about children as they are the default DPOA.



Hollywand - Aug 10, 2004 7:02 am (#267 of 2970)
Here in Los Angeles, some patients are given only a number when the arrive. None of the staff know who they are from the records. This protects the identities of famous stars with medical conditions, and notorious gang members from disclosure.



Steve Newton - Aug 10, 2004 7:46 am (#268 of 2970)
In POA, the movie and the book, when Sirius asks about Snape Lupin says, "He's here." Did he know that Snape had entered the room. I just sort of wonder.



McSnurp - Aug 10, 2004 8:48 am (#269 of 2970)
Chad, about the Goblin Revolutions, JKR really likes the works of JRR Tolkien. Since there's a lot of Goblin trouble in LotR, it makes sense that it's also in HP.



zelmia - Aug 10, 2004 12:44 pm (#270 of 2970)
Steve Newton, I am pretty sure Lupin is referring to Snape being a teacher at Hogwarts.



zelmia - Aug 10, 2004 9:23 pm (#271 of 2970)
I have always found it VERY odd that Voldemort is so superstitious about the Prophecy when he is so dismissive of things like the "ancient magic" of a mother's sacrifice, phoenix tears, and similar. Why is that?



Leila 2X4B - Aug 10, 2004 9:40 pm (#272 of 2970)
I think it is one of those "just in case" deals. Kill the boy "in case" there is a problem, or perhaps he was familiar with Oedipus.



S.E. Jones - Aug 12, 2004 3:53 pm (#273 of 2970)
Chad Peters: Another thing that strikes me odd, is the school nurse. It would seem that a student could do the most horrendous thing, and so long as he or she doesn't kill anyone, the nurse wouldn't tell a soul what happened.

I think that's a matter of necessity. I think she knows that the kids wouldn't go to her if they thought she would tell someone or report it somewhere and they might get in trouble with their Head of House or a professor. If they know she won't ask any questions, they're far more likely to come in when they've done something, well, stupid or reckless and need help versus trying to treat themselves. I think she cares more about the students being healthy than she does about filing the proper reports after each incident (though I'm sure she does keep some record somewhere)....



Steve Newton - Aug 12, 2004 4:36 pm (#274 of 2970)
I don't think that Poppy is a nurse. She is a healer.



Susurro Notities - Aug 12, 2004 5:53 pm (#275 of 2970)
Edited by Aug 12, 2004 6:54 pm
"I don't think that Poppy is a nurse. She is a healer." Steve Newton
Which is exactly what a nurse is.



Steve Newton - Aug 13, 2004 5:41 am (#276 of 2970)
Well, yes, but in this case also the role of the physician.



Chad Peters - Aug 13, 2004 9:51 pm (#277 of 2970)
Here's one for ya. I realise it says "observations that you thought seemed a bit odd when you read them." and while this was in the CoS movie...I actually had to read it to notice it.

I wonder, if it's not something snuck in, or a hint. But, at the begining of chapter 4 on the DVD; we see the twins, ron and harry entering the weasley house. Then, we see a shot of harry looking at Molly's "Special" clock. I don't know why I never noticed it before, but if you read the names; you can see that what looks to be Bill, and Percy (maybe Charlie)'s names are pointing to Prison.

Why?



zelmia - Aug 14, 2004 12:09 am (#278 of 2970)
I think it's supposed to be pointing to "home" but with nine hands, some of them might not be completely straight if they're all pointing the same way.



Chad Peters - Aug 14, 2004 7:31 pm (#279 of 2970)
I thought that at first too, the problem is; if you look, one is pointing straight up directly at the S in prison; while the other is slightly off center, its tip pointed at the P.

I wonder if that's a hint as to the future of the series. Remember, Bill works for Gringotts now. It wouldn't be much of a stretch for voldie's supporters to fake a crime and get Bill sacked and jailed...



Annika - Aug 19, 2004 10:20 am (#280 of 2970)
I think it is odd that the Hogwarts school song is only sang once in 5 years (possibly twice since we were not at the 2nd year sorting or feast). Since all of the kids seemed to know the song, you would think that it is something that is at least sang at the beginning of every term.

Annika



Loopy Lupin - Aug 19, 2004 11:30 am (#281 of 2970)
I need a refresher; where is the song?



TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 19, 2004 11:44 am (#282 of 2970)
SS, pp103

"Hogwarts, Hogwarts, Hoggy Warty Hogwarts, Teach us something please, Whether we be old and bald Or young with scabby knees, Our heads could do with filling With some interesting stuff, For now they're bare and full of air, Dead flies and bits of fluff, So teach us things worth knowing, Bring back what we've forgot, just do your best, we'll do the rest, And learn until our brains all rot."



Czarina II - Aug 19, 2004 11:52 am (#283 of 2970)
Well, we missed both the second- and third-year Sortings (though we did get to see the rest of the feast in PoA). We, the readers, don't get to hear about the entire goings-on of the feasts. We hear the important bits and the parts that are amusing. Harry, having already heard the song in PS, probably doesn't find the song interesting in GoF and certainly not by OoP. In PS, everything was new and JKR was giving every detail. Harry was also taking in every detail as everything was new and wondrous to him, the song included. We never hear the song again because it is probably not important and because to hear it every book would get boring. The lyrics don't change like the Sorting Hat's songs, we pretty much know how everyone reacts to it, and it's probably one of JKR's worst songs in terms of rhythm (no offense meant to JKR, of course), so it's not exactly catchy. (Unlike NH Nick's song on the website, which is just really hard to keep out of your head if you assign it a Gilbert&Sullivan-like tune.)



Madame Librarian - Aug 19, 2004 1:41 pm (#284 of 2970)
You know, that song is really bad. JKR probably wrote it when HP was still a half-formed story meant to be suitable for (not restricted to) kids. It has exactly that kind of slightly gross, 9-year old humor (sorry if I've offended any 9-year olds). I may regret saying this, but the song is just filler and likely by the second book, JKR realized that she had a much more serious project on her hands and the song was not going to make an encore appearance.

Now the Sorting Hat's song, that's another story altogether.

Ciao. Barb



TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 19, 2004 3:19 pm (#285 of 2970)
Actually, I think the song and the delivery were perfect.

""And now, before we go to bed, let us sing the school song!" cried Dumbledore. Harry noticed that the other teachers' smiles had become rather fixed..."Everyone pick their favorite tune," said Dumbledore, "and off we go!" And the school bellowed:"

I thought it was a great way to give us clues about Dumbledore, music lover (no matter what form), hints to his eccentric nature and others acceptance of this, however reluctantly. Very rich in hints about Dumbledore.



The One - Aug 19, 2004 3:31 pm (#286 of 2970)
TwinklingBlueEyes

Actually, I think the song and the delivery were perfect.

I agree. The song, while not exactly great poetry, was there for a purpose, and it did exactly what it was there to do.



Steve Newton - Aug 20, 2004 10:31 am (#287 of 2970)
I was just thinking, in COS Lockhart says that he cured a werewolf with a homorphus (I think) charm. How come nobody, that we know of, has asked him about this? I would think that healers would be very interested.



Chris. - Aug 20, 2004 10:32 am (#288 of 2970)
Well, it would be kind of difficult asking him now, after him ending up with a Memory Charm.



Steve Newton - Aug 20, 2004 10:38 am (#289 of 2970)
Good point.



zelmia - Aug 20, 2004 10:38 am (#290 of 2970)
But it's in his book "Wanderings With Werewolves". Harry and Ron both know that Lockhart didn't actually perform this, but that it was ... I think "some old Armenian Warlock". Since Lockhart confesses to 'tracking these people down' and finding out exactly how they did what they did, the possibility seems to exist that Lupin could be cured.



Chris. - Aug 20, 2004 10:47 am (#291 of 2970)
Zelmia, I think the question is: did "some old Armenian Warlock" ACTUALLY cast the spell?



Steve Newton - Aug 20, 2004 10:53 am (#292 of 2970)
I wish that I'd thought of that.



Loopy Lupin - Aug 20, 2004 11:45 am (#293 of 2970)
But didn't Lockhart oblivate the memories the people who actually did the work?



Maddest Dragon - Aug 20, 2004 12:22 pm (#294 of 2970)
-Lockhart's lost his memory, so no one can get it out of him now even if someone actually cast such a spell, and

-He could have been making it up altogether.

If he didn't make it up, then the old Armenian warlock has the thing that can cure Lupin, but it's apparently not widely available. Werewolfism seems especially difficult to cure. It's existed for ages, and yet it was only in Lupin's lifetime that a potion to make him transform into only a common wolf was discovered--and Snape is one of very, very few people who can make it properly. Chances are they've never heard of such a thing in Armenia.

On a different note, I thought these things were odd: that Harry didn't remember who Susan Bones was when she showed up at the DA meeting, even though she'd been in his Herbology class since first year (I've posted about this on the "Susan Bones" thread). Also, Fred and George learned their O.W.L. grades before leaving for the summer, but Harry's class was told they wouldn't get theirs until sometime in July.

What else is odd is that no graduation ceremony has ever been mentioned, and I can't imagine there not being one. Wouldn't a school with so many traditions surrounding the arrival of new students have at least a ceremony for the ones departing?



Steve Newton - Aug 20, 2004 12:36 pm (#295 of 2970)
"What else is odd is that no graduation ceremony has ever been mentioned, and I can't imagine there not being one."

Good catch! Some of JKR's biggest clues are in what is not mentioned. I'll have to do some thinking on this one.



Julia. - Aug 20, 2004 2:09 pm (#296 of 2970)
I cannot imagine that Lockhart went into extreem detail about his adventures with the werewolf. I was always under the impression that the old American warlock who did cure the werewolf met one of Lockhart's Obvliates. If he's still alive (he was old, remember) if anyone wanted to find out how he did it, they'd first have to find him and then break through the memory charm to get some answers out of him.



zelmia - Aug 20, 2004 2:50 pm (#297 of 2970)
About the Werewolf cure: Lockhart would have written the process as if he had performed it himself. However, we have come to realise that Lockhart cannot be trusted to tell the truth about anything. So even if the true Werewolf cure (regardless of who actually performed it) was written right there in his book, probably no one would believe it. I do find it odd that no one had considered attemtpting it. But then, how many werewolves do people know about?

Regarding Susan Bones: Harry seems to be pretty oblivious to anyone other than Hermione and Ron. I agree that his not noticing Susan Bones before the DA meeting is odd, indeed.

Regarding Fred and George: When Harry comes to stay with the Weasleys in GF it is already August. Remember, that Harry had received a birthday cake from Hagrid that he kept under the floorboard in his room, along with the other gifts he received from Ron and Hermione. Also, the QWC is about a week before the start of school. Mrs Weasley goes to Diagon Alley to pick up everyone's things while they are all at the WC. So the Twins would already have received their results.



Siriusly - Aug 20, 2004 9:23 pm (#298 of 2970)
I wanna know how Mrs. Weasly keeps getting into Harry's vault. Do you just have to have the key? Doesn't matter who you are? Does he send a note?



schoff - Aug 20, 2004 9:29 pm (#299 of 2970)
Regarding Susan Bones: Harry seems to be pretty oblivious to anyone other than Hermione and Ron. I agree that his not noticing Susan Bones before the DA meeting is odd, indeed.

Not to mention not knowing the name of the kid in his Care of Magical Creatures who could also see the threstrals. They've shared a class for 3 years.

Or Theodore Nott for that matter. Whether Nott's in the CoM class or not, Harry's been sharing a Potions class with him for the past 5 years.



zelmia - Aug 20, 2004 11:08 pm (#300 of 2970)
Agreed, Schoff. Harry is completely ignorant of any of his classmates, apart from those who make a conscious effort to interact directly with him (Justin Finch-Fletchley, Ernie MacMillan, Draco Malfoy, etc). This seems to my mind the biggest and most glaring detail to overlook.

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Loopy Lupin - Aug 21, 2004 7:16 am (#301 of 2970)
About the Werewolf cure: Lockhart would have written the process as if he had performed it himself. -- Zelmia

Now that you mention this, it strikes me as odd that no one would have tried it. Perhaps Lockhart kept it secret, but would gladly perform it for a fee. I doubt there were very many takers.



Catherine - Aug 21, 2004 8:06 am (#302 of 2970)
Yeah, I can see someone melting into a rubber puddle with no bones, or maybe Lockhart would make all of your hair fall out, or your teeth disappear.



Loopy Lupin - Aug 21, 2004 8:57 am (#303 of 2970)
Or turn you into a cute little dog, such as a pug. Smile



Catherine - Aug 21, 2004 9:02 am (#304 of 2970)
Or give you moose antlers!



strix - Aug 21, 2004 12:29 pm (#305 of 2970)
Siriusly: Good point about the vault. The goblins seem to be rather lax about who can get money from whose vault. A criminal on the run can access his fortune, and apparently Mrs. Weasley can say: "Oh, I'm shopping for Harry Potter, just give me some of his gold." But perhaps the Weasleys have been to Gringotts with Harry, that we don't know of, and he gave them a sort of standing order.



Loopy Lupin - Aug 21, 2004 12:38 pm (#306 of 2970)
The goblins seem to be rather lax about who can get money from whose vault. A criminal on the run can access his fortune, and apparently Mrs. Weasley can say: "Oh, I'm shopping for Harry Potter, just give me some of his gold."--strix

Well, I've always assumed that Harry gives Ms. Weasley the key to the vault, which seems to be "the key" to being allowed into it. In any event, Harry has been to Gringotts with Ms. Weasley. I can't remember which book (I want to say COS), but Harry saw a pitifully small pile of silver in their vault once.



The One - Aug 21, 2004 12:40 pm (#307 of 2970)
I have always imagined that the goblins have some magic device, sneakoscope-like, that accepts or rejects any withdrawals.

As for why Sirius are allowed to access his money there are two possible explanations:

1. The Goblins relationship with the Ministry seems strained. Perhaps the bank does not really care about the customers relationship with the Ministry. As long as the device confirms that it is his vault the Goblins are happy.

2. Perhaps the device in some magical way knows that Sirius has not really done anything illegal and therefore accepts the transaction. (Of course, if such a device exist, why would anyone innocent ever go to Azkaban?)



Loopy Lupin - Aug 21, 2004 12:45 pm (#308 of 2970)
I think you answered your own question. I think #1 is the most likely possibility. The goblins probably don't much like any withdrawals, but probably like Fudge even less.



Norbert not a common welsh green - Aug 21, 2004 1:30 pm (#309 of 2970)
About the Warewolf charm maybe it dosent cure them but in some way makes them harmless.



S.E. Jones - Aug 21, 2004 3:59 pm (#310 of 2970)
Could they have allowed the withdrawl because Harry (whose name was on the order form) was technically Sirius's ward at that time, legally speaking (Sirius wasn't just Harry's godfather, but his guardian as he mentions James and Lily had made some sort of arrangements so that Harry would go to him), thus he could legally access Sirius's vault?

Zelmia: Harry is completely ignorant of any of his classmates, apart from those who make a conscious effort to interact directly with him (Justin Finch-Fletchley, Ernie MacMillan, Draco Malfoy, etc). This seems to my mind the biggest and most glaring detail to overlook.

Strange, but I never found this that odd. Harry only see Gryffindors on a daily, 24-hour basis. I always saw Hogwarts classes being more like my college classes where the people sitting next to me were strangers than like my highschool classes where I'd grown up with the kids. I didn't know anyone in my college classes, no matter how many classes in a row I had with them (though I could recognize them and might wave on occasion), unless either I introduced myself to them or they introduced themselves to me. Sure, I heard professors call names, but there were so many names, and the names changed depending on what class you were in, that I couldn't keep them straight without an introduction. Heck, I sat neck to a guy for almost three semesters straight (we had four or five classes together where we sat next to each other), made friends with him, chatted between classes, exchanged notes, etc, before I found out his name! I heard him introduce himself to someone else sitting behind us.



Archangel - Aug 21, 2004 4:43 pm (#311 of 2970)
First time to post here and I think this has been discussed before -- it's Harry's watch! How did he get that watch? I doubt if the Dursleys gave him that watch or anyone else. Did he buy it himself during his stay in The Leaky Cauldron?

Also, he said that it stopped working after he went down the lake (GoF) but he kept wearing it for a couple of more days even though it's no longer working. Why?



S.E. Jones - Aug 21, 2004 4:58 pm (#312 of 2970)
I'd say force of habit, for one. I've had watches quit but still worn them because, well, I'm used to putting them on when I get ready for school and such. Secondly, he doesn't have many things, so I'd guess he'd be rather reluctant to let go of anything that he does have.



Steve Newton - Aug 21, 2004 6:18 pm (#313 of 2970)
S.E.,

I agree, but....JKR went out of her well to tell us. Constant Vigilence!



Madame Librarian - Aug 21, 2004 6:43 pm (#314 of 2970)
The watch symbolizes...well, it doesn't symbolize, it represents time. A broken watch is time stopped. I wonder what time it was when it stopped. Without re-reading that segment, I wouldn't dare to explore if there was something critical going on just as Harry realizes the watch is stopped. Well, everything is critical, but I hope you get what I mean here.

Was time stopped for Harry (and the reader) so as to point out something that he should be taking special note of? Not just for the current events of GoF, the Triwizard games, but for the bigger plot concerning the whole story. It's a classic literary device to have the time a watch or clock is stopped become highly significant. Are we even told the time? Anybody read this bit recently? Maybe I'll get to it soon.

And, this reminds me of the old (bad) joke about a not too bright guy whose watch is not running. A friend says, "Hey, Mergatroyd, why you still wearin' that ol' broken watch?" To which Mergatroyd answers, "Well, it's not a total loss; it's still right two times a day." (I shall go eat a boxful of Ton-Tongue Toffees in penance.)

Ciao. Barb



Robert Dierken - Aug 21, 2004 8:41 pm (#315 of 2970)
Ron calls Harry on the telephone. Where is the telephone Ron used? I suspect that the Burrow does not have telephone service, so it had to be somewhere else.

Did Ron perhaps use the 50 pence coin in a pay telephone?



MzWhizz123 - Aug 21, 2004 8:50 pm (#316 of 2970)
At one point in OP Molly uses the phone in town to call for a taxi to take all the kids and thier stuff to London to catch the train. I would assume that Ron might have used the same phone to call Harry.

As for how they paid for those calls, that would be up for debate. I suppose that, like Arthur did at the WQC when the Muggle in charge of the field said peolple had just been handing him wads of money, they would simply pump Muggle coins into the telly until it connected them!



schoff - Aug 21, 2004 9:23 pm (#317 of 2970)
I always saw Hogwarts classes being more like my college classes where the people sitting next to me were strangers than like my highschool classes where I'd grown up with the kids.

I don't think this is nearly the same as Harry's position, SE. Take Potions, which we know he shares with Slytherins. Therefore, Nott should be in that class. The class most likely doesn't have more than 30 students in it.

Harry has spent all year, every year, for 5 years with these same 30 students. I shared a math class for 2 years with the same students in high school, and while I didn't know everyone personally, I certainly knew their names. Harry should know who Theodore Nott is, especially if he also shared a CoM class with him for 3 years.



Maddest Dragon - Aug 21, 2004 9:50 pm (#318 of 2970)
Regarding Fred and George: When Harry comes to stay with the Weasleys in GF it is already August. - Zelmia

I wasn't talking about GF. At the end of PA, before they leave for the summer, we're told that "Percy had got his top-grade N.E.W.T.s; Fred and George had scraped a handful of O.W.L.s each." So the grades were given out before they left for the summer--even if Fred and George had figured out some underhanded way to learn their grades ahead of time, Percy wouldn't have used it. Yet two years later, fifth years are told they won't receive their O.W.L.s until July.



schoff - Aug 21, 2004 9:56 pm (#319 of 2970)
It's a classic literary device to have the time a watch or clock is stopped become highly significant.

I liked the idea that it meant time had run out for Harry. Voldemort was returning full force.



S.E. Jones - Aug 21, 2004 9:59 pm (#320 of 2970)
schoff: Harry has spent all year, every year, for 5 years with these same 30 students. I shared a math class for 2 years with the same students in high school, and while I didn't know everyone personally, I certainly knew their names. Harry should know who Theodore Nott is, especially if he also shared a CoM class with him for 3 years.

Actually, this is exactly the kind of condition I was thinking about. I went to a junior college before attending university. There we had class sizes of about 20-30 people. I went from Chemistry I to Chemistry II, Chem Lab I to Chem Lab II, etc, with the same 20-30 people. I sat next to the same people everyday, semester after semester, and never knew their names. Sure, I could recognize them on campus and I'd wave, but I didn't know who they were. I'd never actually spoken to most of them.....

The problem is you only see them one time a day, not all day long (or at least multiple times a day) the way you do in high school.

Yes, Harry's seen these same Slytherins for five years, but he only sees them in one class, not all day long like you would in high school. He sees the Hufflepuffs in one class, not all day long. So, he vaguely recognizes people by sight as belonging to one house or another, but doesn't know their names because they weren't directly introduced.



Madame Librarian - Aug 22, 2004 7:20 am (#321 of 2970)
The circumstances of the end of the year at the end of OoP might have been the reason grades were given out later than usual. The whole battle at MoM, the general condition of a few of the kids (Ron, Hermione, Neville), the devastation of those in the know about Sirius's death, work that DD must deal with taking precendence over end-of-year normalcies. And... the biggest issue, the general rising panic in the highest levels of administration now that it is out in the open that Voldemort is back.

Ciao. Barb



Choices - Aug 22, 2004 8:17 am (#322 of 2970)
I find it "odd" that Newt Scamander failed to include hinkypunks in his book, "Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them".



Maddest Dragon - Aug 22, 2004 11:26 am (#323 of 2970)
Madame Librarian, I respectfully disagree. The MoM battle and Sirius's death hadn't yet taken place when McGonagall told the class they would get their O.W.L. results in July. And the Ministry was still insisting that Voldemort couldn't possibly be back. Even with Dolores Umbridge at Hogwarts, I don't see why details like when O.W.L. or N.E.W.T. grades go out would change, especially since exams are presided over by people like Marchbanks and Tofty, who are from outside the school. I would expect that McGonagall is in charge of sending the results out, since the letters that go out over the summer--telling students they've been accepted to Hogwarts and what books and supplies they'll need--are always signed by her. And she made the announcement before she got injured, so that wouldn't account for the delay.



Ozymandias - Aug 22, 2004 3:37 pm (#324 of 2970)
Here's the passage where Harry's watch stops.

Cho's head was on Hermione's shoulder; the small silver-haired girl was ghostly green and pale. Harry struggled to fight off the mermen, but they laughed harder than ever, holding him back. Harry looked wildly around. Where were the other champions? Would he have time to take Ron to the surface and come back down for Hermione and the others? Would he be able to find them again? He looked down at his watch to see how much time was left--it had stopped working. (GoF, Chapter 26, Page 500 US)

I can't for the life of me think of what this is meant to highlight, though.



Madame Librarian - Aug 22, 2004 6:14 pm (#325 of 2970)
Thanks, Ozy, for the quote. I, too, haven't a clue as to its import/ Must let it marinate.

Ciao. Barb



Siriusly - Aug 22, 2004 7:07 pm (#326 of 2970)
THIS IS JUST A THEORY.

The watches are marking alchemy processes. Make the philosophers stone, gold, elixar or save the world, the choice is yours.

Like the watch on her desk after the doxy passes. Zodiac regulates when you can perform the processes ( there are 12) and their are 16 elements (7 metal/9 non-metal), thus the planets and the 16 hash marks. There may be a hand for each seekers position in the process.

Quidditch is 7 going for gold.

JK is actually making the philosophers stone and the formula is buried in the text.

She must succeed, well, how many millions has she made already?



The giant squid - Aug 23, 2004 12:10 am (#327 of 2970)
Regarding Harry's watch stopping: He was checking it to see how much time he had left. He didn't know, because his watch had stopped. There was no way for him to tell if he was staying down too long, if he was coming up on the deadline or not. In a lterary sense, it's supposed to create dramatic tension. In Harry's world, it just meant one more thing that wasn't going right for him.

--Mike



Gemini Wolfie - Aug 23, 2004 2:50 am (#328 of 2970)
It certainly increased tension. Since Harry's watch had stopped, it meant that he didn't know how long he had been in the water, which meant he didn't know how much time he's got left before Cho and everyone dies.

But I got a question. I remember reading here that Harry had never owned a watch and then end up getting one (details unknown?). Is it a muggle watch or is it a wizard's watch? If it's a muggle watch, would it have stopped working upon entering Hogwarts grounds?



Siriusly - Aug 23, 2004 5:27 am (#329 of 2970)
He beats his fists against the post and still insists he sees no ghost



Choices - Aug 23, 2004 7:37 am (#330 of 2970)
Perhaps it is just a literary device to indicate that "time" is standing still?



Madame Librarian - Aug 23, 2004 12:39 pm (#331 of 2970)
Maybe we're supposed to make a connection between the broken watch and Harry not knowing how much time he has left and the fact that...well, Harry doesn't know how much time he has left, literally. He is quite clueless as to the way this whole struggle is going to play out, let alone when and how long it will take.

Actually, we know more than Harry simply because we've been told many times that the story ends with Harry's 7th year. Granted we may be surprised to discover a cliff hanger/decide for yourself/ambiguous ending but I don't think so. At the end of each book, which is the end of the school year for Harry, he is slightly better informed as to what's really going on, but he is never told, nor does he out and out ask, "How long do I have to get ready for whatever it is I'm getting ready for, and how long will it take before it's over?"

As to a Muggle watch working at Hogwarts, there isn't any problem. If I remember correctly, it's electronic devices like radios and phones that don't work. A simple wind-up watch that works on mechanical principles is probably just fine. Battery-operated? Not so sure.

Ciao. Barb



Maddest Dragon - Aug 23, 2004 1:18 pm (#332 of 2970)
So where would Harry (or any other Hogwarts student) get a wind-up, no batteries Muggle watch? They're hard to find these days, and not cheap. I don't see a teenager having one unless it had been handed down from a relative. And Harry doesn't have such a thing--in PS/SS, the night before his birthday, we're told that, "Harry wished he had a watch." If either of his parents had left him one, it would have been mentioned earlier, and probably would not be a Muggle watch. I think it's more likely his watch is a wizarding watch, that works the same as a Muggle watch only on magic instead of batteries. Or else it's a wind-up watch, no magic involved (except perhaps to keep it from winding down, unlike a Muggle watch), and the WW still has them, just like they still use quills instead of ball point pens.

Furthermore, if Harry ever bought himself a watch, it would probably be a wizarding one, because he has plenty of wizarding money but no Muggle money. If anyone gave it to him for a present (perhaps a Christmas or birthday present JK didn't specifically mention), well, the only people who give him presents of any value are in the wizarding world.



S.E. Jones - Aug 23, 2004 2:46 pm (#333 of 2970)
Watches have been around for quite awhile (the ones that wind up, I mean). The first watch was invented, supposedly, around 1500, so it isn't inconcievable that they would sell such a thing in Diagon Alley. I mean, wizards do wear normal things from time to time: glasses, robes (and I don't mean purple ones enchanted to attack you), non-cursed/charmed jewelry, hats, etc. I could easily see Harry picking such a thing up while wondering around Diagon Alley with Ron and Hermione in CoS....

EDIT: Or it could be that whatever affect electrical devices at Hogwarts wouldn't affect his watch because the battery in the watch only supplies a small amount of electricity to a coil which passes through a small magnetic field yo keeps the watch ticking, everything is in such small amounts that it isn't disrupted by Hogwart's magic or whatever it is that does it.....

I'd go with the first answer though.....

By the way, did anyone ever wonder how they got a bed in the cupboard under the stairs?



Maddest Dragon - Aug 23, 2004 3:54 pm (#334 of 2970)
Do we know that Harry had a proper bed in the cupboard? Maybe it was a cot, and in that case it could be folded up. I mean "cot" in the American sense, that is, a bed that can be folded up and usually has wheels; not a crib, which is what we call a baby's bed--what do they call it (a fold up bed) in the U.K.?



S.E. Jones - Aug 23, 2004 3:57 pm (#335 of 2970)
I thought a baby's bed was called a pram in the UK? Or am I misunderstanding your post?

I think one of us may have confused me....



Siriusly - Aug 23, 2004 4:10 pm (#336 of 2970)
A pram is a stroller I think.

I always thought Harry slept on a pallet.



Maddest Dragon - Aug 23, 2004 4:26 pm (#337 of 2970)
A pram is a baby carriage. In interviews, JKR said Harry wouldn't have seen his parents' deaths because he was "lying in his cot." And I've read books by British authors where a parent puts the baby into his cot for a nap. Which made me guess that the Brits call a cot what the Americans call a crib. And what would a pallet be in England? In America, it's the hard, flat thing that's placed on a bedstead to support the mattress. Somehow, I don't think that's what Harry sleeps on. Perhaps he sleeps on a mattress with no bed frame? Getting it into the cupboard would be difficult, but not impossible.



Siriusly - Aug 23, 2004 4:28 pm (#338 of 2970)
Where I am from it is a bunch of blankets laid out on the floor for you to sleep on. I just thought this fit better in the cupboard under the stairs.

That was the question wasn't it, under the stairs?

I have read too much tonight.



S.E. Jones - Aug 23, 2004 4:40 pm (#339 of 2970)
Yeah, that's what a pallet is where I'm from too, Siriusly.

I could see it being a cot (er, bed that could be folded up, not a crib).... Come to think of it, I have heard cot meaning crib; thanks Dragon....

Whew, and people wonder how language can be a barrier!.....



Chad Peters - Aug 23, 2004 4:57 pm (#340 of 2970)
I've always figured that Harry was about 1 year old when his parents were killed. So, I guessed his bed as being a kind of baby bed more than anything.

As to the watch, few watches (save for certain special types) can hold up under water at depth. Since we don't know how deep Harry was, it's no stretch to assume that either the water got to the watch, or the depth damaged it beyond working ability.

(most diver watches are good up to 100 meters, or around 300 feet)



Madame Librarian - Aug 23, 2004 5:16 pm (#341 of 2970)
Don't know why, but I always pictured Harry's watch as kind of old. I don't mean very old, but something someone from the previous generation might have worn--wind-up, analog face, beat-up leather strap, a little too big on him. One of Vernon's throw-aways that was tossed in the trash when Petunia bought him a Rolodex wannabe? Just a feeling.

Ciao. Barb



Catherine - Aug 23, 2004 5:56 pm (#342 of 2970)
About the "bed under the stairs bit..."

We renovated a home, and have a fairly large cupboard (for our HP fans) that is otherwise a huge closet under the stairs, which we added.

It is certainly bigger than Harry's bedroom in the movies, which, granted, isn't saying much. It's about 5 x7 feet square. And has no spiders!



KWeldon - Aug 23, 2004 6:58 pm (#343 of 2970)
One thing I find odd personally is her characterization of the "Ludicrous" Patents Office in OotP. Patents, copyrights, trade secrets, etc. are all valuable intellectual properties in the Muggle world. Surely she wouldn't think her own copyright protection for everything on the entire planet related to HP was "ludicrous", would she?



Siriusly - Aug 23, 2004 7:07 pm (#344 of 2970)
Maybe it was a reference to all the "red tape" she had to go through to do it?



Maddest Dragon - Aug 23, 2004 7:13 pm (#345 of 2970)
Maybe she does think her own copyright protection is ludicrous. It wouldn't be unlike her to have a sense of humor about it. Not that there's anything ludicrous about a basic copyright, but that it covers every last little detail, and all kinds of frivolous lawsuits can be filed. In fact, JK did get sued by someone who claimed to have written a similar story first. The lawsuit was eventually decided in her favor--but I can see every last little detail being hashed over for hours in court.

"See, Your Honor, on page 202 of the first edition, Ms. Rowling uses exactly the same ten-word sentence that my client used on page 1111 of her unpublished manuscript...."



schoff - Aug 23, 2004 7:52 pm (#346 of 2970)
I've always figured that Harry was about 1 year old when his parents were killed. So, I guessed his bed as being a kind of baby bed more than anything.

He was 15 months old when his parents died. July 31, 1980 (Harry's Birthday) to October 31, 1981 (Voldemort's First Vanquishing).

Which just makes it even odder that it took Voldemort so long before he finally acted on what he knew from the First Prophecy--which was made before Harry was born.



Leila 2X4B - Aug 23, 2004 8:58 pm (#347 of 2970)
It may not be so odd after all. Voldikins is a patient evil lord. He waited a long time to ensure that all worked well with the Triwizard plan and the MoM plan as well. He may have waited long enough to get the plan in order and Find where the Potters were.



schoff - Aug 23, 2004 9:08 pm (#348 of 2970)
Voldemort didn't go after the Potters until a few months at most before their deaths. The Potters weren't in hiding for very long. That leaves at least a year where either he:

a. Knew about the Prophecy, but did nothing about it
b. Did not know about the Prophecy, and it took nearly a year for the news to reach him.

There didn't seem to be much of a plan that night other than to go and kill Harry. Possibly James too. Nothing Voldemort had to wait for.



Maddest Dragon - Aug 23, 2004 10:02 pm (#349 of 2970)
Perhaps he hadn't yet made up his mind whether to kill Harry or Neville. Or, if he was going to kill both of them, which one he should go after first. So what happened to make him decide? Pettigrew telling him where the Potters were? Maybe for some reason he couldn't get at either of them before that. Also, would he have necessarily known about their births right away? It's possible that both Lily and Alice gave birth in some secret place(s), with the bare minimum of assistance--perhaps a highly trustworthy Healer or midwife, their husbands, and no one else. And they didn't announced the births, except to their closest relatives. They wouldn't have had to know about the prophecy to keep it so hush-hush; just the fact that they'd defied Voldemort and would be vulnerable, and their babies too, would be motivation enough. Voldemort might have taken nearly a year to find out who had baby boys at the end of July. In fact, it's possible that some of the other families he went after had new babies that he thought might be the chosen one. He may have killed those babies and/or their parents, only to find out that the baby was a girl, or born at the wrong time, or the parents didn't fit the prophecy.



schoff - Aug 23, 2004 10:10 pm (#350 of 2970)
According to the Prophecy, Voldemort only had two choices: Potters or Longbottoms. They are the only people who thrice-defied the Dark Lord, and Voldemort would definitely remember that. The Prophecy also stated the baby would be born at the end of July. Hush-hush or not, the only thing Voldemort needed to know was the location of the families, and the Potters weren't in hiding. They didn't go into hiding for another year.

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S.E. Jones - Aug 23, 2004 10:51 pm (#351 of 2970)
But, really, how easy is it to say 'hm, who's thrice defied me, oh yes, it was...'. I mean, I doubt he had it written in some black book somewhere. He'd probably have to go probing some memory cells, not to mention doing some research. He'd also then have to find out who of those who have defied him (there may have been others aside from the Potters and Longbottoms) was having a child and would thus be qualified as possibilities. It would take a few months for the Longbottoms and Potters to realize they were even pregnant (the Prophecy was made before Harry was born but do we know how long before exactly?), let alone for the news to reach Voldemort. Then he has to decide which of the families....

All in all, not an easy task, I'd think....



The giant squid - Aug 24, 2004 12:06 am (#352 of 2970)
One of Vernon's throw-aways that was tossed in the trash when Petunia bought him a Rolodex wannabe?


Speaking of language barriers... I think Madame Librarian was referring to Rolex, the watch company, not Rolodex, the phone number organizer-thingy.

As for the bed-in-the-cupboard-under-the-stairs, considering how "well" the Dursleys have outfitted Harry in the past, I think it's just as likely that his bed was nothing more than some boxes with a few ratty old blankets thrown over them. I think a standard issue folding bed/cot would suffice, though.

--Mike



Madame Librarian - Aug 24, 2004 8:13 am (#353 of 2970)
TGS, Merlin's Beard! Have you not heard of the latest merger? The esteemed watchmaker and popular office-supply firm have joined forces to create an analog version of the PDA. A truly elegant (though slightly heavy) retro styled watch mounted on an incredibly tiny flip-through rolling file. Of course, the magnifying glass (framed in 18K gold electroplate or 14K gold) is included for a nominal sum). The titans of industry and government don't know how they got by without it. (See testimonial by Donald Trump on the back page of the brochure.)

Kidding aside, boy do I feel stoopid. I shall slam my fingers in the oven door later today during dinner prep.

Am I being stoopid here, too? I have just stumbled on this conundrum, and cannot recall if it's been brought up and solved or if it's been completely missed.

DD hears the first prophecy before Harry is born--maybe 9 or 10 months before. So, at that point neither baby is "marked" and both sets of parents are on Voldemort's hit-list because of defying him so much. Here's where I get confused over the sequence of events. Is this why DD decides it's necessary to get James and Lily into hiding, or were they already in hiding? What about the Longbottoms? Or are they in hiding, too, and we're just not told? Once the attack at Godric's Hollow takes place, DD thinks, "Ah, now we have that part of the prophecy filled--the baby is marked." Did he just forget about the Longbottoms and Neville at that point? Oh, I don't mean forget about them as if he were uncaring or careless, but wasn't anybody still concerned that they were at risk. And, as it turned out, they were, just not from Voldemort himself.

Another question: do you think DD told the Potters and the Longbottoms the prophecy and that either of the two babies might be The One?

One more thing--about knowing you're pregnant right away. Take from one who has been there, done that--for many women it's like almost within days of...um...well, you know. Now, lots of folks don't let anyone else know, but that's a different issue. It could be that both Lily and Alice kept mum on their condition so as to be able to continue working for the Order without everyone getting all funny over it.

Ciao. Barb



Maddest Dragon - Aug 24, 2004 11:42 am (#354 of 2970)
Dumbledore heard the prophecy "on a cold, wet night sixteen years ago." Cold and wet makes me think late winter, early spring--isn't spring the rainiest season in Britain? Plus, it's June when he says this,so it's probably sixteen years plus two to four months--if it had been fall, it would be closer to seventeen years. In any case, I think it's most likely Harry and Neville had been conceived by the time the prophecy was made. It is much easier to make an accurate prophecy about events that have already been set in motion than events that haven't even begun. I think the prophecy was made after it was certain (even a Muggle with the right technology could have determined this) that two witches, who had each defied Voldemort three times, were both pregnant with boys who were due around the end of July.

Also, do we know when the torture of the Longbottoms took place? If I remember right (don't have a copy of GoF handy), Bellatrix wasn't sentenced for it till after Voldemort's downfall, but that doesn't mean it couldn't have taken place much earlier. It just might have taken that long to catch her. And we don't know why she tortured them, do we? Was it pure spite? Punishment for defying Voldemort? Was she trying to get secrets out of them? If she was trying to get something out of them, maybe that something was the whereabouts of their son. Maybe they had magically concealed Neville for his protection, and Bellatrix was trying to find him so Voldemort, or the Death Eaters, could kill him and thwart the prophecy.



Madame Librarian - Aug 24, 2004 11:56 am (#355 of 2970)
Sept, I based my query on the Lexicon timeline, and it says that DD interviews Trelawney in 1980 (no month given). Harry is born in July 1980, so DD hears the prophecy either 6 or 7 months before Harry and Neville are born, or if it's after Harry is born or up to 5 months after. Either way both boys are vulnerable for about 1 1/2 years.

The Lex also indicates that the Longbottoms were tortured "a short while" after the attack on Godric's Hollow. Lexicon Steve indicates that the LeStranges are arrested for the crime in 1981, so it's somewhere between Nov. 1 and Jan. 31. Not a very long time span.

Ciao. Barb



S.E. Jones - Aug 24, 2004 12:20 pm (#356 of 2970)
Well, I guess it would have to be under 6 months because Harry was almost sixteen when Dumbledore made the comment about "sixteen years ago". Also, isn't Harry always practacing Quidditch in the rain in October and November, around there? So maybe the prophecy was made just after the school session started, or perhaps just before? Theoretically, Harry should've been concieved around October 1979, so maybe it was a couple months after that the prophecy came about?



Maddest Dragon - Aug 24, 2004 12:22 pm (#357 of 2970)
Dumbledore would have to have heard the prophecy before the boys were born, because it's in the future tense: THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD WILL BE BORN AS THE SEVENTH MONTH DIES (emphasis mine).

And if the Longbottoms were tortured a short while after the Potters' attack, it might have been within the same twenty-four hours. Sounds to me like Voldemort was trying to eliminate both Harry and Neville. Perhaps he thought Harry was the more likely candidate, so he went after Harry himself and sent Bellatrix after Neville. Or perhaps he was going to kill both of them himself, but the Longbottoms had magically concealed Neville, so Voldemort didn't know exactly where Neville was--but he did know where Harry was, thanks to Pettigrew.



schoff - Aug 24, 2004 12:28 pm (#358 of 2970)
I don't think anyone was after Neville during the Longbottoms torture, especially Bella. I base this on her reaction to Neville at the DoM. She was clearly relieving torturing Neville's parents, not something that she was personally ordered to do to Neville. It was all about his parents, not him.

If Voldemort had once ordered her to find Neville, she would have tried or said something to him at the DoM.



Loopy Lupin - Aug 24, 2004 12:33 pm (#359 of 2970)
And if the Longbottoms were tortured a short while after the Potters' attack, it might have been within the same twenty-four hours.-- Maddest Dragon

Weren't they torturing the Longbottoms because they believed that the Longbottoms had info about LV's whereabouts? If I'm remembering correctly, I wouldn't think that the Longbottoms torture occurred simultaneously or so very close after the Potter attack.



schoff - Aug 24, 2004 12:43 pm (#360 of 2970)
GoF 30 US603:

The attacks on them came after Voldemort's fall from power, just when everyone thought they were safe....The Ministry was under great pressure to catch those who had done it.

This doesn't indicate a 24 hour period to me, maybe a week or so. Bella also went to Azkaban after Sirius, who we all know *was* caught in a 24 hour timeframe.

GoF 30 US596:

[Bella speaking] He will rise again and come for us, he will reward us beyond any of his other supporters! We alone were faithful! We alone tried to find him!

Sounds like Bella just wants Voldie back, torturing the Longbottoms was just icing on the cake.



Madame Librarian - Aug 24, 2004 3:48 pm (#361 of 2970)
I'm treading onto thin, volcanic rock here since I'm not good at sequencing all of this, but consider that no matter when it is that one hears the prophecy the wording is the same.

DD heard the what we assume to be the original intonation from dear, oblivious Sibyll. The One will approach. Yes, future event. S.E.'s suggestion of DD' interview with Sibyll happening just before the 1980 school year starts or just slightly into the fall makes sense (why wait so late, though?). But I think this is a dangerous assumption. For all we know Sibyll could have been falling off into these "fits" and intoning this dire prediction every year or every morning in her bathtub.

Whenever it is that Voldemort hears it (or parts of it), the words don't change to reflect events that may have happened or are happening. He could have heard it a day or so later, or two weeks after Harry's birthday. Doesn't matter. Now, Voldemort assumed that the July (7th month) referred to is the one in 1980, but that might be wrong. The July could be two years down the road, or have been one from ages ago. Oodd, isn't it, that everyone assumes the prophecy refers to this year, this July, this generation? Whoa. I've been assuming that too.

Well, I said what I wanted to say about the use of the future tense in that line in the prophecy, but I've also said something I didn't start out to say about assuming things. Typical. (*sighs*)

Ciao. Barb



S.E. Jones - Aug 24, 2004 7:55 pm (#362 of 2970)
Always dangerous to assume things about Prophecies. Look what happened to Voldemort when he assumed to much and went looking for Harry as a child.....



Siriusly - Aug 24, 2004 8:20 pm (#363 of 2970)
You know, what if it isn't Harry at all.

Let's try this:

The one with the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches (Snape is coming down the hall), Born to those who have thrice defied him (maybe Snape's parents did not want to be DE's even though they were purebloods), Born as the seventh month dies (Snape B-day in July?), And the dark lord will mark him as his equal (well he does have that dark mark and DD said some of the DE were just as bad as Volde)and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives (Snape or Volde). The one with the power to vanquish the dark lord will be born as the seventh month dies (Harry).

What is Snape was the spy that heard the begining of the prophecy. Told Volde, but in the 15 months that it took for Volde to do something about it, Snape turned. He went to warn the Potter's, gave Harry his death stopper potion (prevents death), curse bounces, Voldemort becomes Vapormort, and Snape laughs. They know Volde is not gone, they have to cover Snape's tracks, so they make the fame and glory potion and give it to Harry. Now Snape did all the work and didn't get the Order of Merlin 1st class, didn't get rich and famous but the kid with "no extraordinary powers" did. Might tick a person off.

Maybe I have just been reading too much.



Miriam Huber - Aug 25, 2004 12:58 am (#364 of 2970)
Just another "odd thing" - a little one: Does anyone know (or guess) why one of the tents (I don´t remember which one) at the World Cup was exactly looking like Mrs. Figgs´ apartment?



lobelia - Aug 25, 2004 9:36 am (#365 of 2970)
I think it is the borrowed tent that the Weasleys are using to camp at the World Cup. I think it is meant to reflect the outdated borrowed equipment rather like Mrs. Figg's house. A further comparison of the "frugal"-ness of the Weasleys to other wizard families.



schoff - Aug 25, 2004 9:46 am (#366 of 2970)
It was also meant as a clue for us to try and figure out Mrs. Figg's true identity--that there was more to her than what meets the eye. She'd only been a throwaway character before, then at the end of GoF we find out she's part of "the old crowd."



Chad Peters - Aug 25, 2004 5:08 pm (#367 of 2970)
As to the tents, Mr Weasley makes a comment that he "borrowed this from Perkins at the office. Doesn't camp much anymore, poor fellow, he's got lumbago."

Now, who's to say that Perkins isn't related to Figgy who we all know is a squib?

There were several things that bothered me in CoS. Too many to truthly list though. I think one of the most nagging, was the nature of the bathroom. Maybe it's just me here, but did anyone else have a problem with the fact that the bathroom was described as a modern one?

In Salazar slytherin's time, bathrooms didn't exist. (At least ones indoors) Now, sure, you could argue that wizards had something...but it all seems rather convenient that here you have this hidden cave in a bathroom with relatively modern sinks. It's like they remodeled the bathroom and made sure to keep that funny little magic snake there.



Ozymandias - Aug 25, 2004 5:28 pm (#368 of 2970)
The snake may have been added by Tom Riddle. Harry describes it as being scratched on one of the taps, so I always thought it was simply being put there by Riddle to mark the entrance, so he could find it more easily.



KWeldon - Aug 25, 2004 5:45 pm (#369 of 2970)
Siriusly,

You touched on something I've privately wondered since I first read the prophecy, and that is that the first and last lines are not referring to the same person. Otherwise, why would it be repeated?

Although I had always guessed they meant Harry and Neville, I hadn't considered Snape.

KWeldon



Amilia Smith - Aug 25, 2004 5:47 pm (#370 of 2970)
To go back a ways: about Fred, George and Percy getting their test results early. Maybe F&G just felt they had passed. If I remember right, POA just says that F&G had scraped a handful of OWLs between the two of them. We don't get specifics about how many until GoF. They may have even felt, or at least told Ron and Harry, that they passed more than they actually did.

This does not explain Percy knowing about his top grades. Maybe you are told your NEWT scores before you leave school, as this will affect your job hunting, whereas OWL scores only affect what classes you will be taking next year.

Chad, the bathroom is also one of the numerous things that bugged me about CoS. I haven't got any ideas for you. I do like Ozy's suggestion, though.



Maddest Dragon - Aug 25, 2004 6:06 pm (#371 of 2970)
The O.W.L.s and N.E.W.T.s still aren't explained. If they have the N.E.W.T. results in in time to tell the students before they leave, why not the O.W.L.s? And why not tell fifth years which O.W.L.s they've passed so they can decide what classes to take? Harry's class will have to decide over the summer; if they'd known their results sooner, they could decide sooner, or at least have a little more time to think it over.

Harry not knowing his grades yet does help the storyline: he doesn't have to deal with choosing his classes while he's still barely coping with the death of Sirius. Still, I don't understand why they'd do things differently from two years earlier. And no, I don't think Fred and George just felt they'd passed a handful of O.W.L.s, it sounds like they'd already been told.



S.E. Jones - Aug 25, 2004 6:53 pm (#372 of 2970)
You touched on something I've privately wondered since I first read the prophecy, and that is that the first and last lines are not referring to the same person. Otherwise, why would it be repeated?

I don't think the fact that the first line is repeated is important. The second or third line of her second prophecy was also repeated at the end:

?The Dark Lord lies alone and friendless, abandoned by his followers. His servant has been chained these twelve years. Tonight, before midnight... the servant will break free and set out to rejoin his master. The Dark Lord will rise again with his servant?s aid, greater and more terrible than ever he was. Tonight... before midnight... the servant... will set out... to rejoin... his master...?

I think it's just a stylistic thing....



Madame Librarian - Aug 25, 2004 7:09 pm (#373 of 2970)
Well, a repetitive, "looped" prophecy is one thing, but the prophecy we are talking about--Sibyll's first--does not really loop.

The first line is
The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches....

The last line is
The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies....

I'd noticed this a while back and mentioned it on the prophecy thread, but it didn't capture anyone's imagination. It's always rattled around on the back of my burner of my brain. I think it'll turn out to mean something. Hey, we heard that JKR and Sibyll took a great deal of care in constructing the prophecy's language. I think it would be a mistake to discount this little bit of language.

There are odd and slightly awkward shifts in tense usage which was picked apart in earlier discussions and left as nothing to focus on. I think it's telling that the first mention of "the one" has him approaching, already born. The final mention says "will be born"--future tense. Odd switch.

That's all.

Ciao. Barb



S.E. Jones - Aug 25, 2004 9:51 pm (#374 of 2970)
The repitition in the second prophecy isn't an exact repition either:

Tonight, before midnight... the servant will break free and set out to rejoin his master.

Tonight... before midnight... the servant... will set out... to rejoin... his master...



KWeldon - Aug 26, 2004 9:38 am (#375 of 2970)
Sorry, Barb, I didn't see that. I'm with you, though, that I think it means something.



Siriusly - Aug 26, 2004 2:12 pm (#376 of 2970)
SE - could the second be Barty Jr. breaking the imperius curse?



Chad Peters - Aug 26, 2004 6:28 pm (#377 of 2970)
while sitting in my car today, waiting on my uncle to finish his errands, I dug up my book of CoS and read a few pages. Something struck me right in the face; which I'd not really paid much attention to before. It's just a little minor quip by Molly about the "car".

she says something like. "Well, I guess muggles know more than we give them credit for." Maybe I'm reading too much into it here, but those could be interpeted to be rather ominous words given that Muggles will start noticing things (or so Jo says) in the next book.



Susurro Notities - Aug 26, 2004 8:45 pm (#378 of 2970)
The post by Siriusly proposes that Snape might be the one who was marked as Voldemort's equal as he has the death mark. I would think that this mark does not indicate equality but subservience. Voldemort marked his followers this way not his equal.



Siriusly - Aug 27, 2004 1:31 pm (#379 of 2970)
But not all DE's have the mark, only those in the inner circle. Volde calls them "his family". Would you not consider your family equal? DD did state that some of the DE's were just as bad as Volde.



Gemini Wolfie - Aug 27, 2004 2:54 pm (#380 of 2970)
Would you not consider your family equal?

I would but most fathers or teachers would understandably not consider their sons or students to be their equals. It is also not unusual for masters to consider their servants and slaves as being part of the family. And if you consider the DEs to be Voldemort's sons, students, servants, or slaves, it wouldn't be too far-fetched to think that they're just as worse as Voldemort (Like father like son, like teacher like student, like master like servant) There's also the fact that Voldemort doesn't address everyone as his friend. So who does Voldemort consider to be his friend? I wonder if Voldemort has the Dark Mark on himself.



Parrothead Patronus - Aug 27, 2004 3:39 pm (#381 of 2970)
Someone in another thread talked about the bathroom in COS. The theory was that Hogwarts its' self changes magically with the passage of time. Meaning it grows and modernizes its' self. Meaning in the beginning the COS was there it just looked different. (maby a well or hand pump) It's a good theory, just wish I could remember where I saw it and who wrote it. They explain it better than I do.



popkin - Aug 27, 2004 4:49 pm (#382 of 2970)
Edited by Aug 27, 2004 6:06 pm


Gemini Wolfie - Aug 27, 2004 3:54 pm (#380 of 381) I wonder if Voldemort has the Dark Mark on himself.

Voldemort asks Wormtail to show him the mark so he can call the others. I am pretty sure he does not have one himself - I think he's above that.

Parrothead Patronus, I don't remember which thread we discussed Moaning Myrtles' bathroom in, but the discussion about the Castle changing to accomodate the times began with an article in The Lexicon. It was about the bathroom changing locations from one book to the next. It wasn't always on the second floor. I'll find it and post a link.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

also [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] the seventh question down



Parrothead Patronus - Aug 27, 2004 6:34 pm (#383 of 2970)
Thank you Popkin. That sounds so much better than my way.



Chad Peters - Aug 27, 2004 8:01 pm (#384 of 2970)
Parrot and Popkin, I've thought similar for some time, (that the school modernizes and such) but one other theory though more sinister, could be that the way Tom found the chamber in the first place; was by accident.

Imagine the following little scenario. (though rather far fetched.)

The school needs a new bathroom, for whatever reason. An empty room is chosen, and the wizards go about making the needed changes. In doing so, they inadvertantly cover up the original door to the CoS. Now, they may or may not find the passage; but something prevents them from fully opening it. (only the true heir).

Tom Riddle comes along, having spent some time searching for the CoS, and figures out just what the wizards found. He adds his own magic to it, turning one of the sinks into the door; and scratching that little snake on the faucet so he remembers just which one is the door.



The One - Aug 28, 2004 3:39 am (#385 of 2970)
Maddest Dragon: Harry not knowing his grades yet does help the storyline: he doesn't have to deal with choosing his classes while he's still barely coping with the death of Sirius.

Perhaps OWL-results are somehow important to the plot in HBP, and that is the reason JKR suddenly have decided that results are not available until the beginning of the next book.



Maddest Dragon - Aug 28, 2004 11:23 am (#386 of 2970)
Works for JKR, perhaps--but takes some consistency out of the WW.



The One - Aug 28, 2004 11:33 am (#387 of 2970)
No doubt about that.



The One - Aug 28, 2004 11:59 am (#388 of 2970)
Zalmia

The twins take their OLWs and Percy takes his NEWTs at the end of PoA, and still their results are know before they go home for the summer.

If we do not assume that they are just guessing results, and that is not the impression I get when I read the book, their results are treated differently.

Of course, the routines may have changed for some reason...



zelmia - Aug 28, 2004 12:07 pm (#389 of 2970)
Yes, I see now what you are referring to. Sorry about that.
Anyway, I think the reason they don't get their results until July in OP is this:

"Our new -- headmistress -- " Professor McGonagall pronounced the word with the same look on her face that Aunt Petunia had whenever she was contemplating a particularly stubborn bit of dirt - "has asked the Heads of House to tell their students that cheating will be punished most severely - because, of course, your examination results will reflect upon the headmistress's new regime at the school..." (OP ch. 31)

So it seems that ordinarily the students would get their results on the last day of term, as they did in PA. But since Umbridge wants to make certain that there is no cheating or anything, perhaps the exams are being graded much more thoroughly and therefore the results will be sent by owl this year instead.



Maddest Dragon - Aug 28, 2004 1:08 pm (#390 of 2970)
Could work--but something else that puzzles me is that, in CoS, when Harry visits the Weasleys, Ron says something about Percy having just gotten his O.W.L. results. I don't have the book handy, but it sounds like Percy's class also got their O.W.L. results during the summer. So Fred and George's year would have been the exception... but why?



S.E. Jones - Aug 28, 2004 1:56 pm (#391 of 2970)
Maybe it changes from year to year depending on how many kids are taking tests (OWL and NEWT) and how many examiners/graders they have on hand?

Something that struck me as odd was the way Umbridge smiled at Harry when he made the Patronus during his practical DADA OWL. Why do you suppose she did that?

[Harry does the Expecto Patronum spell at the end of the test for a bonus point.]

As Harry passed Umbridge beside the door their eyes met. There was a nasty smile playing around her wide, slack mouth, but he did not care. Unless he was very much mistaken (and he was not planning on saying it to anybody, in case he was), he had just achieved an "Outstanding" OWL.
(OotP, ch31)

Am I just imagining the look wrong?



TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 28, 2004 2:50 pm (#392 of 2970)
I think the "playing around her wide, slack mouth" says she has to attempt to support her students in front of the examiners, but the "slack mouth" part shows it was just a show. Just like, his smile never reached his eyes kind of thing.



Maddest Dragon - Aug 28, 2004 3:08 pm (#393 of 2970)
Doesn't Umbridge always have a wide, slack mouth? It sounds like part of her toad-like appearance to me.

Terrific catch, S.E.--you made me wonder now if there's a clue here. Why a "nasty smile"? That sounds more like a smirk. Like she knows something he doesn't--perhaps....

OH! I just thought of it! This is before Umbridge reveals that she was the one who set the dementors on him and Dudley. Probably Harry conjuring the Patronus reminded her of that, and that she still had one up on him. Because she used his talent for DADA to get him into serious trouble....

Now I wonder if she was planning something further. And, if so, if we'll hear about it in the next two books.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 28, 2004 3:53 pm (#394 of 2970)
Dragon? SMILE! Is your mouth slack when you smile? Playing around is more revealing, kind of like when you see Dumbledore's mustache twitch, he's supressing a smile, and she's trying to create one.



Maddest Dragon - Aug 28, 2004 4:55 pm (#395 of 2970)
I see what you're saying, Twinkling... that her mouth is wide and slack because she's not really smiling... and I still think it's also part of her natural toad-like appearance. (I was picturing my high school drivers' ed teacher. He looked kind of like that--and, come to think of it, I never saw him even try to smile.)

A nasty smile, though? Maybe she's unhappy that her students, especially Harry, are doing so well--maybe she's unhappy at the reminder of why the dementors didn't finish him off... maybe she's comforting herself with the memory of how she got him into trouble with the Ministry.



S.E. Jones - Aug 28, 2004 5:38 pm (#396 of 2970)
I saw "nasty smile" as referring to 'smirk' (the way Dragon suggest, like Umbridge was up to something or she knew something Harry didn't). I saw the "playing around her wide, slack mouth" to indicate that she was 1) trying to hide it (like the smile was just at the edges of her mouth) and 2) the "wide, slack mouth" was just another descriptor of her toad-like face.

That's just how I read it though....



TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 28, 2004 6:01 pm (#397 of 2970)
You can bet, if Umbridge does something "nice", it's going to be nasty.



schoff - Aug 28, 2004 8:35 pm (#398 of 2970)
Re: Umbridge's smirk.

If you want my opinion, I read it as Umbridge knew something that Harry didn't--namely that she'd already set him to fail his DADA exam. I'm willing to bet that as Headmistress, she was going to do something to nullify all of the DA members' finals, no matter how well they did. Perhaps accuse them of cheating or something.

Siriusly: jars of herb - I haven't go this one yet

Herbology? Neville (Herbology is his best class) or the Hufflepuffs (whom Gryffindors share the class with)?



S.E. Jones - Aug 29, 2004 12:24 am (#399 of 2970)
I find it odd that we have a character named Hermione, who I thought (until, maybe, recently) reminded me of Percy, and Percy's owl's name is Hermes. 'Hermione' is derived from the name 'Hermes'.



Madame Librarian - Aug 29, 2004 7:18 am (#400 of 2970)
rusty, spiked instruments hung from the ceiling - haven't got this one yet.

Does this work (CoS for OoP)?--
The assortment of house-elf heads mounted on stairwell wall at 12 GP.

That image popped into my head immediately. It's three books away, not two, though.

Ciao. Barb

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Steve Newton - Aug 29, 2004 7:37 am (#401 of 2970)
When Moody puts Harry under the Imperius curse in GOF Harry feels euphoric. No cares or worries. It sounds like a very pleasant experience. This always struck me as strange.



S.E. Jones - Aug 29, 2004 9:54 am (#402 of 2970)
Siriusly, it seems to me that you have a theory regarding the foreshadowing in each book. Perhaps you should mention your theory on the "Not mentioned in other threads" thread since it's not really an observation.....



Madame Librarian - Aug 29, 2004 2:56 pm (#403 of 2970)
When Moody puts Harry under the Imperius curse in GOF Harry feels euphoric. No cares or worries. It sounds like a very pleasant experience. This always struck me as strange.

Steve, maybe this is a ploy to make us notice that given the stakes of this universal battle between Good and Evil, Harry is very tempted to just give up. His near-surrender is made to be very attractive, like a pleasant experience, a relief, that I-can-wash-my-hands-of-the-whole-thing feeling. I am so sympathetic to poor Harry's various ordeals, I like him so much, he's just a kid, that even I found myself reacting a little to that scene with the same emotion--"Go ahead, Harry," I said, "you deserve the rest, the peace. Give it up. I understand...everyone will understand. No one can possibly blame you."

Fotunately, Harry fought off the temptation (this time). Otherwise the books would end way too soon.

Ciao. Barb



Siriusly - Aug 29, 2004 5:56 pm (#404 of 2970)
Moved my thoughts to the other thread SE. Thanks



Steve Newton - Aug 29, 2004 6:45 pm (#405 of 2970)
Madame, I agree. After only a sort while Harry did resist. Very strong self image or something.



Chad Peters - Aug 30, 2004 12:18 pm (#406 of 2970)
Some time ago, I posted about how in the second movie that the hands of the clock are...wonky. I know that movies aren't considered canon, but I thought it might be interesting, or at the very least, curious, to note that the names pointing to prison are "Molly and Bill"



TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 30, 2004 12:58 pm (#407 of 2970)
Chad, look at these pictures of the clock sequence in the movie and tell me which best describes what you are refering to. 1. shows the boys lost, 2. shows them traveling. 3. shows them home. Whole time it shows Molly and Ginny in garden.



schoff - Aug 30, 2004 1:41 pm (#408 of 2970)
Okay, there are five spoons pointing to the garden. Who is the one in the back (the visible face behind Molly and Ginny)? It doesn't look like either the actors for Arthur or Percy, and Bill and Charlie weren't suppose to be there. And who's playing Quidditch? I can't read the scissor handles.



zelmia - Aug 30, 2004 4:06 pm (#409 of 2970)
The "spoons" are actually scissors. The front of the scissors (the pointy end) has each of their names on them. I don't know who that other person is either, but it sort of looks like it might be Molly. I don't know why the scissors should point to Garden for Ginny, but Molly - at least in the book - was indeed in the garden at that time because she came out and yelled at the boys before they even went into the house. In the movie she comes in the door so I think that representation is pretty accurate.

EDIT: After examining it with a couple of different "picture viewers" I think it's Percy. You can almost see his name on the scissors. Besides: It can only be Percy, if you think about it.



schoff - Aug 30, 2004 4:16 pm (#410 of 2970)
Molly and Ginny can clearly be seen, so that other person is not Molly.



Siriusly - Aug 30, 2004 4:19 pm (#411 of 2970)
I thought one of them was Percy, probably in the garden. and maybe that is Charlie playing Quidditch in Romania.



schoff - Aug 30, 2004 4:24 pm (#412 of 2970)
One of them has to be Percy, but I don't think he's shown. The mysterious photo doesn't have curly/wavy hair like the actor for Percy does, and his bangs are straight across--much like the twins.



Siriusly - Aug 30, 2004 4:30 pm (#413 of 2970)
Looks like they didn't know who would be playing the older brothers or if anyone would be playing the older brothers, so they kind of morphed the twins and Ron's pistures together to get someone who looked like them.



Madame Librarian - Aug 31, 2004 8:03 am (#414 of 2970)
It looked to me like an old fashioned sepia print photo, not as colorful as the Wealey family members' photos.

A relative who's passed away, but used to live with them? Previous owner of the clock?

Yep, I just double checked--it sure looks old and faded to me.

Noticed also that the boys seems to look guilty, like they're always up to something or checking downward to see if Molly's nearby, or upward to see if the clock is accurate about their whereabouts (i.e., could it maybe not be right once in a while). Ginny's face is always a neutral, pleasant smile as if to say, "Me? Why I'm not doing anything wrong, Mum, just having a go at that Quidditch trick in the garden."

Ciao. Barb



Herm oh ninny - Aug 31, 2004 10:14 am (#415 of 2970)
Here are just a few things that have always struck me as odd: 1.In CHoS why did'nt anyone ever ask Moaning Myrtle how she died before Harry? She could have told the teachers back then to check out the sink. 2.In PoA why couldn't Harry see Peter Pettigrew's name on the map. Lupin saw it there. 3.Why is Ravenclaw house so greatly ignored in the books. JK never even says who the head of the house is or its ghost. What do you guys think?



Loopy Lupin - Aug 31, 2004 10:55 am (#416 of 2970)
As for Myrtle, I'd have to re-check my COS, but did she see what killed her? Did she see it come out of the sink? Good question though.

As for Harry and the Map, was Scabbers presumed dead before or after Harry got the map? I seem to think he was thought to be dead fairly early. In any event, the answer might be that Scabbers wasn't around when Harry had the map. Now, as to why the twins didn't see Pettigrew for two years, you got me there.

The head of Ravenclaw is Flitwick. JKR said this in a chat, I think. I don't know who their ghost is.



The One - Aug 31, 2004 11:01 am (#417 of 2970)
As for Harry and the Map, was Scabbers presumed dead before or after Harry got the map?

Harry got the map before the Firebolt incident. Scabbers was presumed dead just as the Firebolt fight was over, extending the Firebolt fight into the rat/cat fight.



Steve Newton - Aug 31, 2004 11:16 am (#418 of 2970)
LL, as I recall the scene in COS when Ron and Harry question Myrtle she just says that she came out of the toilet, saw eyes (yellow?), and died. Not too much specific information to go on.

I can't help but think that Dumbledore and the Headmaster, can't remember his name, would have made inquiries, though.



Catherine - Aug 31, 2004 11:27 am (#419 of 2970)
Herm oh Ninny, interesting questions. All I can do is speculate.

Myrtle seemed more interested in haunting Olive than she did in punishing her attacker. She says that she saw the "great, big, yellow eyes" and pointed "vaguely toward the sink in front of her toilet." (p. 299-300, Scholastic).

I'm not sure that the teachers would have thought to ask her how she died. Someone or something could have killed Myrtle elsewhere and hidden her body in the bathroom to buy time. Most teenagers in good health don't have an Elvis moment and suddenly expire in the potty, thank goodness.

As for Peter being "unseen" on the map, it doesn't trouble me too greatly. Do we know for certain that Percy took Scabbers to Hogwarts before he got Hermes? Perhaps Scabbers never came to school before Ron brought him. If we assume that Percy did bring Scabbers to Hogwarts, then I think it is unlikely that Fred and George were using the map to look at Percy or in Percy's dormitory. They were probably looking out for Filch and Mrs. Norris. By the time Percy was prefect, he had given Scabbers to Ron, so if they were watching out for Percy, Peter still wouldn't show up.

I may be mistaken, but I thought that the Grey Lady was the Ravenclaw ghost. I thought I saw that in an interview. I'll look it up.

**Catherine apparates to the library**

EDIT: Our own HP Lexicon states:

The Grey Lady (Ravenclaw ghost) (SS12) Very little is known about the Grey Lady apart from the fact that she is very tall and she is the resident ghost of Ravenclaw. Harry and Ron encounter her gliding past in the corridor while out looking for the Mirror of Erised (SS12).According to a letter written by JKR to Nina Young, the Grey Lady is "a highly intellectual young lady" and a woman with strong scholarly or literary interests. "She never found true love as she never found a man up to her standards."



schoff - Aug 31, 2004 12:52 pm (#420 of 2970)
Herm oh ninny: 2.In PoA why couldn't Harry see Peter Pettigrew's name on the map.

This is currently being discussed on the Marauder's Map thread. Check out the posts starting out at 119.

It's also been discussed nearly everywhere else. Try doing a search on "peter marauder's map" and you'll get even more info! You might even find some Archived discussions!



S.E. Jones - Aug 31, 2004 1:06 pm (#421 of 2970)
Here's Andrew Buchanan's answer to the Marauder's Map/Pettigrew problem (post 166, 'Glitch in GoF' thread), which I find to be quite possible....



schoff - Aug 31, 2004 1:15 pm (#422 of 2970)
Except that Peter must have shown up as either "Peter Pettigrew" or "Wormtail" otherwise Lupin would not have known he was alive when he first entered the Shrieking Shack. Lupin wouldn't know who "Scabbers" was. See my post on the Marauder's Thread.



Siriusly - Aug 31, 2004 2:07 pm (#423 of 2970)
Did anyone else notice the near helicopter crash in the muggle news at the begining of OOTP. Isn't this explained previously as a near miss with someone on a broom? Could it be that someone was spying on Harry in Surrey?



S.E. Jones - Aug 31, 2004 5:17 pm (#424 of 2970)
Schoff, I think Andrew's explanation has credit. However, I'd add that the Map knows who has it and thus shows them what they need to know accordingly. Lupin knew Peter as Peter Pettigrew, in both human and animagi forms. Fred and George only knew the animagi as Scabbers.



KWeldon - Sep 1, 2004 6:51 pm (#425 of 2970)
Siriusly,

You state: Isn't this explained previously as a near miss with someone on a broom?

What exactly do you mean by this? Do you mean here on the forum, or in the books? It's the first I've heard of it, but I find it very interesting.

KWeldon



zelmia - Sep 1, 2004 7:44 pm (#426 of 2970)
It struck me as odd that Sirius has no trouble whatsoever with Buckbeak in PA (never has to bow to him, etc.) Of course, we find out in OP that he grew up around Hippogriffs as his mother was a breeder of "fancy" hippogriffs.
Regarding Myrtle: I kind of got the impression that no one really knew she was there. At least, not any of the faculty. In all Filch's rantings about having to clean up the flooding from her bathroom, he never confronts her or says anything to her about the trouble she's caused... I don't know.



Maddest Dragon - Sep 1, 2004 8:53 pm (#427 of 2970)
Would Filch confront a ghost? He doesn't seem to say anything to Peeves about all the trouble he causes--and Peeves is no secret.

Myrtle, on the other hand, seems to stay well out of the way. HRH never meet her until the deathday party. She seems to confine herself to the bathroom, the lake, and occasionally sneeking peeks at bathing prefects. Filch and the faculty may or may not know about her.



The One - Sep 1, 2004 9:24 pm (#428 of 2970)
The Ministry knows about Myrtle. She left Hogwarts to stalk this girl she hated, but was forced back by the Ministry.

All the girls at school all knows about Myrtle. That is the reason the girls all avoid the bathroom, and thus it is safe for two boys to brew a secret potion in a girls bathroom for a month.

Seems a little strange if it still is a secret for the staff.

As for the map: Barty Jr. was known to Harry as Moody, but still showed up as Barty.



Siriusly - Sep 2, 2004 4:09 am (#429 of 2970)
In the books when the kids are talking about flying during summer and before Hogwarts, one of them talks about almost taking out a helicopter. I always thought the line on the news was interesting. Got the feeling someone is either spying or lives closer than we think.



schoff - Sep 2, 2004 9:10 am (#430 of 2970)
Ah. Now I remember:

P/SS 9 US144

Malfoy certainly did talk about flying a lot. He complained loudly about first years never getting on the house Quidditch teams and told long, boastful stories that always seemed to end with him narrowly escaping Muggles in helicopters.

OoP 1 US3-4

He kept listening, just in case there was some small clue, not recognized for what it really was by the Muggles--an unexplained disappearance, perhaps, or some strange accident...but the baggage handlers' strike was followed by news on the drought in the Southeast ("I hope he's listening next door!" bellowed Uncle Vernon, "with his sprinklers on at three in the morning!"; then a helicopter that had almost crashed in a field in Surrey, then a famous actress's divorce from her famous husband ("as if we're interested in their sordid affairs," sniffed Aunt Petunia, who had followed the case obsessively in every magazine she could lay her bony hands on).

Two completely different books, 5 years apart in story-telling. An interesting coincidence. I'm now intrigued by JKR's just in case there was some small clue, not recognized for what it really was by the Muggles. If that doesn't say "look at this paragraph, it's telling you a clue!" I don't know what does. Is Surrey near where Little Whinging is suppose to be? Is there any character who can be connected to Surrey?



zelmia - Sep 2, 2004 9:26 am (#431 of 2970)
Little Whinging is in Surrey, actually. I think it would help if we had heard more of the report on the helicopter crash. Maybe they nearly collided with a Dementor.



schoff - Sep 2, 2004 9:41 am (#432 of 2970)
Or someone with a ton of cauldrons?



Maddest Dragon - Sep 2, 2004 11:17 am (#433 of 2970)
I'd take Malfoy's stories of near misses with helicopters with a grain of salt. Sounds like exaggerated bragging to me. The helicopter that almost crashed in the field may not be significant at all. JK just needed to give a rundown of typical news stories, and a near helicopter crash fits the bill. Rather like Mark Evans's name being a mere coincidence that everyone thought was significant.



Siriusly - Sep 3, 2004 4:46 am (#434 of 2970)
I think Percy Weasley's action may be a result of his own transformation.

Ever notice on the JK's Fan Site that some trophies are "gold" and some are "silver". Looks like Tom, Sirius, Bellatrix and Lily have already attained gold. While James and Frank were cut down at Silver. Harry and Percy appear to be at silver.

Just an observation



Magical Llama - Sep 3, 2004 5:43 pm (#435 of 2970)
That is a good point Siriusly. Frank Longbottom definitely has a silver trophy, but it looks like Harry and Percey have platnium trophies.

You should post that idea on 'JK official site' thread, Siriusly. It is a great idea. Smile



Siriusly - Sep 3, 2004 5:45 pm (#436 of 2970)
Thanks Llama.

Actually I just started book 5 and Harry is still Mercury, thus the constant reaction to changes in his environment. I have hope that the end of book 5 will find him at silver (the 7th metal of alchemy, thus seven candles on his cake).

Noticed Volde had a Gold Trophy himself.



Sirius Lee - Sep 4, 2004 7:46 am (#437 of 2970)
Susurro wrote: "You can't hurt a baby" Is this a reference to Harry as a baby being hurt by Voldemort. If so - what importance would this reference have?

Mrs. Sirius Black wrote: See, if it did in fact cleverly hint that Harry, as a baby, could not be AK'd (maybe there is some sort of protection charm on babies in the first place?)

I am so sorry if this has been discussed to death, but I'm only half way through this thread, but I'm ready to BURST because this subject has caused much debate between my friends and I, and no one believes me at all. So here's my theory (again, sorry if it's been brought up in the next 200 posts):

I think that if you curse a baby, it backfires because of some sort of protection. I believe it's in GoF that we learn LV has taken steps to prevent a mortal death. So when he AK's Harry, it backfires and "kills" him instead. But he can't properly die, so he turns into a spirit or whatever. Hermione knows that if Ron curses the baby Deatheater, it will backfire and curse Ron, putting him out of commision for the duration of the battle.



Herm oh ninny - Sep 4, 2004 9:42 am (#438 of 2970)
Sirius Lee, The reason Harry didn't die as a baby was because his mom gave her life for his. By sacrificing her life a kind of spell was put upon Harry protecting him from harm. It had nothing to do with the fact that he was a baby. When Hermione says "you can't hurt a baby" its not because she thinks the spell will backfire but because she thinks its wrong to attack an "innocent" baby. Kind of like how you wouldn't attack a blind person. Its just not right.



popkin - Sep 4, 2004 9:55 am (#439 of 2970)
Edited by Sep 4, 2004 10:57 am
You might be on to something, Sirius Lee. However, Hermione is often compared to Lily because they are about equally talented and intelligent. If Hermione knew that a curse on a baby would rebound to the curser, then wouldn't Lily be likely to know the same thing? After all, she had been desperately trying to figure out how to keep her baby safe from LV. Why would Lily jump in front of the curse if she knew it would not hurt Harry? Wouldn't she just let Voldemort curse her baby, watch the curse rebound, and then be around to raise Harry? If she didn't know, then why would Hermione? Also, if Hermione knew that a curse on a baby would rebound, then wouldn't she have told Harry that she knew exactly how he survived his first encounter with LV? It is frequently stated that no one knows exactly how Harry survided, so that would be big news, and Hermione would know it.

I think Hermione
does not know anything special except that it is wrong to hurt an innocent. Even though the Death Eater in question had the body of a man, he had the mind of an innocent baby.

EDIT: Herm-oh-ninny beat me to it.



Sirius Lee - Sep 4, 2004 10:31 am (#440 of 2970)
I think that fact that Lily dies is what gives him continued protection (i.e. why Quirrell/Voldimort can't touch him, why he must return to 4PD). It's by far my most far fetched theory, but since someone else brought up Hermione's baby comment earlier, I thought I'd throw it out there. There has to be more to the AK spell not working that just Lily's death.

I think we're meant to initially read Hermione's comment as just being ethical or polite, but once we know a few things, we will see it differently. That happened back in SS/PS when she quickly apologized to Quirril for bumping into him on her way to igniting Snapes robe. You first read it simply as the "good-girl" being polite, but when re-reading the book, you realize that was when she really saved Harry/stopped the jinxing.



Sirius Lee - Sep 4, 2004 10:48 am (#441 of 2970)
I posted this thought on the Ollivander thread, but it seems to fit here too, as it definately struck me as odd, and I'm wondering if anyone on this thread has any thoughts:

Ollivander remembers every want he ever sold. Since I can't see Lord Voldemort, in the height of his evil reign strolling into a shop to buy a wand, I can only assume the want containing Fawkes's feather was purchased by Tom Riddle. However, he knows that it was Lord Voldemort was the one who has the Harry's wands brother. Dumbledore tells us at the end of CoS that it wasn't very common knowledge that Voldemort was once known as Tom Riddle (loaned out my book, so no direct quote, sorry), so how does Ollivander know the connection? It just seems odd to me that a shopkeeper would know such a big thing.



Steve Newton - Sep 4, 2004 12:06 pm (#442 of 2970)
Popkin, do you have any references to Hermione being compared to Lily? I can't think of any.



schoff - Sep 4, 2004 12:23 pm (#443 of 2970)
Sirius Lee, The reason Harry didn't die as a baby was because his mom gave her life for his

Eh, once again I will state that I don't think this is the *only* (or even main) reason Harry survived that night. Lily cannot possibly be the only person who ever sacrificed her life for another (in terms of AK being the cause of death), especially their child--even if Lily was the only person who knew of the ancient charm.

There is more to Harry *and* Voldemort surviving that night than meets the eye.



Maddest Dragon - Sep 4, 2004 12:37 pm (#444 of 2970)
Lily may not have known about the ancient charm at all. I always thought that her death saving Harry was completely accidental, or, at least, not planned. Lily tried to defend her baby, as any mother would, and got killed in the process, but neither she nor Voldemort had any idea what would result. Harry had already been marked by prophecy. That was probably the real reason why Voldemort's curse rebounded, and why Lily's sacrifice worked the way it did.



popkin - Sep 4, 2004 3:05 pm (#445 of 2970)
Steve, I'll look the next time I read through the books. That may be a while, though.



Siriusly - Sep 4, 2004 7:35 pm (#446 of 2970)
Everyone's broken noses. That strikes me as odd.

Maybe their noses broke when they hit the floor after they were beheaded. No that can't be it.

And has anyone figured out what a "sticky end" is yet. I am just dying to know. Uncle Vernon and Lucius Malfoy seem to know, but they aren't telling.

If Harry fails at his task, will he come back as say... Lancelot Henry James Potter?

I know...WHAT?

Never mind, just the ravings of a lunatic.



The giant squid - Sep 4, 2004 11:08 pm (#447 of 2970)
Siriusly, a "sticky end" is just a bad death, kind of like saying "I hope he suffers". At least that's the way I read it.

--Mike



Choices - Sep 5, 2004 7:50 am (#448 of 2970)
I agree Giant Squid.....now could you explain what a "sticky wicket" is??? LOL



Chad Peters - Sep 5, 2004 8:29 am (#449 of 2970)
I can't get a screen capture of it, but you have to watch when Harry first sees the clock. Not just when the boy's spoons move.

The instant before the clock moves, two hands are pointing at a near 12 o clock. That's the hands in question.



Siriusly - Sep 5, 2004 10:18 am (#450 of 2970)
Thanks, I always wondered about that.

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schoff - Sep 5, 2004 11:29 am (#451 of 2970)
Sticky wicket. It comes from cricket/croquet where wickets are used.

Sticky end.

Sticky situation.



Agramante - Sep 5, 2004 1:35 pm (#452 of 2970)
Sirius Lee-good point about Ollivander noting Harry's wand. Possibly he told Dumbledore that the brother to Riddle's wand had been sold (though, if Riddle never made a great name for himself outside of Hogwarts, hard to tell why Ollivander would go to the trouble). Dumbledore did say that few noticed that Voldemort was really Riddle, not that no one did.

This is an extremely old thread, like from the first 10, and I haven't perused the couple of hundred in between--but it was asked why first years take a boat to the castle, and upperclassers ride carriages. In Greek mythology, Charon ferries souls from earth to Hades. This ferry ride for first-years could be a symbolic link to that, an end to a child's pre-magical life, and the start of a new existence. Especially since the journey seemed to happen at night, I was struck with that feeling immediately.

One thing does bug me, though...doesn't Voldemort seem to be a bit of a wuss at times, and this whole upcoming war a bit trivial? The Ministry of Magic seems to have devices and rooms with such great power which no one, for or against Voldemort, is willing to use. Time Turners...Voldemort can't come up with some application of those, where Death Eaters might do unseen errands in the past? Even the recent past, like Harry and Hermione did, just to nudge a few events so that the outcome is changed. It just seems to me that Voldemort is too often playing by the same rules as his opponents: that this battle between the forces of good and the worst wizard in an age is a terribly gentlemanly affair. I can't get over how V and Dumbledore have a philosophical discussion as they duel at the end of book 5. Voldemort just doesn't seem implacable to me. He seems too vulnerable and human. Compare him to other supernatural or semidivine villians I've read about--Sauron and Morgoth come to mind--and Voldemort's a pretty approachable guy by comparison. Maybe I'm being too hard on him. Maybe he's still just too weak, and can't do what he'd really like to. Like when Sauron was stuck being the Necromancer...



Phoenix song - Sep 5, 2004 7:19 pm (#453 of 2970)
Agramante: Voldemort like the Necromancer...yeah, okay, I can see that. However, another post that I read today had some interesting points to show that perhaps what Voldemort was initially trying to transform into was a sort of demon. Since then I keep seeing he-who-must-not-be-named as the fiery balrog. (And since Gandalf defeated the balrog and became even more powerful than before I am greatly comforted by this image.)



dragon keeper - Sep 6, 2004 11:58 am (#454 of 2970)
I'm sorry if this is off the current topic, but I thought it was odd that James and Lily had so much money to leave to Harry. They were still pretty young weren't they? So what did they do for a living? Did their parents die and leave THEM money?

Has this been discussed before? Any thoughts?



Catherine - Sep 6, 2004 12:18 pm (#455 of 2970)
JKR indicated that James had inherited wealth, so that he did not need to work at a well-paying profession.



schoff - Sep 6, 2004 12:37 pm (#456 of 2970)
JKR added that they did work, and it's been speculated that they were Unspeakables due to Harry's dream where his parents weave in and out but never say a word.



Maddest Dragon - Sep 6, 2004 1:07 pm (#457 of 2970)
I think it's likely that James had inherited from his parents, and possibly Lily too. Harry has no grandparents, no living relatives except the Dursleys. That suggests that all of them died before his parents were killed. Also, since people can go straight into careers as eighteen-year-old Hogwarts graduates, James and Lily may have found lucrative lines of work early on. I see James as an Auror. He's someone who would've thrived on danger. And dangerous jobs tend to be jobs that pay well.



Chemyst - Sep 6, 2004 2:01 pm (#458 of 2970)
...doesn't Voldemort seem to be a bit of a wuss at times - Agramante He does. A lone dementor is far more scary. But I hope we saw the last of all the time-turner stuff in PA and never revisit it. V's use of dark magic shows he isn't playing by the same rules as his opponents though. I'd explain the "terribly gentlemanly affair" with two reasons, 1) that there is a lot of tradition and decorum to follow in the wizarding world, and 2) that it is JKR's intention to have her villain (unlike Sauron) retain a trace of humanity because his human-nature will play into his final defeat. As to Voldemort and Dumbledore having a philosophical discussion as they duel; it is curious. Voldemort seems to get chatty with the wizards he respects, while a mere student like Cedric the Spare is dismissed rather abruptly.
___________________________________

More on STICKY WICKET from Michael Quinion at WorldWideWords.org A wicket was originally (and can still be) a small door or grille, especially one cut into a larger door. It was borrowed in the early eighteenth century to refer to the three wooden sticks called stumps that form the structure at which the bowler aims and which the batsman must defend. In the usual double-ended game there are two sets, 22 yards apart. By a further extension, the word came to apply to the ground between them (we?re now some way from a small door, but the sequence is plain). After rain, the ground becomes soft and the ball bounces more erratically, making it more difficult for the batsman. Hence a sticky wicket, in full to bat on a sticky wicket. To be on one, figuratively speaking, is to experience great difficulty.



Phoenix song - Sep 6, 2004 11:47 pm (#459 of 2970)
I think it's odd that there are no talks about tuition costs. The Wesley's refer to concerns regarding books and equipment, but nothing is ever said about the tuition for so many children. Is the boarding type schools in England state sponsored? I just wonder if Hogwart's is being financed by the WW and not by the individual parents, and thought I'd compare costs are in public schools in England.



wolfgrl - Sep 7, 2004 9:20 am (#460 of 2970)
I would suspect that Hogwarts would have to be funded by the WW because there are no other schools in the area to go to (as far as we know). I do not believe they would let wizards to be untrained because they could not pay tuition. Especially muggle borns with no connection to the WW. If they could not afford to go, and did accidental magic in front of muggles all the time because they could not control it, it would be a constant mess for the MOM to clean up.



Phoenix song - Sep 7, 2004 10:40 am (#461 of 2970)
Wolfgrl: I think that you've made a good point. It might save the wizarding world a lot of tax dollars to train wizards instead of cleaning up their messes when they're "horribly splinched" or the like.

Thanks, Barbie



Maddest Dragon - Sep 7, 2004 11:45 am (#462 of 2970)
Not to mention, if the wizarding world funds Hogwarts, that's an investment in its own future. If those whose families couldn't afford tuition didn't go through Hogwarts, they wouldn't qualify for jobs in the wizarding world and couldn't pay taxes to support it (assuming, of course, that the Ministry is funded by taxation--they may have a completely different way of doing it that us Muggles have never thought of). In any case, support for Hogwarts ensures that there will always be a new generation of witches and wizards.



Saud - Sep 7, 2004 9:57 pm (#463 of 2970)
Something that struck me as odd is the number of DE's. When LV calls them in GoF, about maximum 30-40 appear and there are still about 20 missing, dead or alive or in whatever state. So that makes their total number to about 60 MAX. How is it that someone(can't remember exactly who) from the good side makes a reference that the DE's had them cornered 20 to 1 when they were at their peak.

I do understand that there were many fake DE's, as we saw in the Quidditch World Cup. But they would have to be pure-blood in order to even think of doing something that a pure-blooded DE would do to muggleborns or half-bloods. Because I think no half-blood or muggleborn would indulge in such activity.

I raise this point as Sirius mentioned to Harry in OotP that if you go on to trace the pure-bloods, almost all of them are related to each other. And exactly how many pure-bloods were there on that family tree in Sirius' house?

Quite a few people. And from those say about 3/4 became DE's and others became muggle-lovers. That reduces their population quite significantly.

I am sure I am missing something big that would prove me wrong in an instant. I am waiting for it!



Maddest Dragon - Sep 8, 2004 10:30 am (#464 of 2970)
Saud, excellent question. This sounds an awful lot like the "How many students at Hogwarts?" question, which is still being heavily debated. In both cases, there often seem to be far more people present than are ever mentioned by name. And then we sometimes get the impression of a very large crowd, and other times of a relatively small group.



haymoni - Sep 8, 2004 12:17 pm (#465 of 2970)
Don't forget - the DEs that were mentioned were all men. We don't know the roles that their wives play - i.e. Narcissa, Mrs. Crabbe, Mrs. Goyle, etc.



Eponine - Sep 8, 2004 1:34 pm (#466 of 2970)
Oh dear, I do believe that's the first time I've even thought of the existence of Mrs. Crabbe and Mrs. Goyle. I wonder what they're like?



haymoni - Sep 8, 2004 3:40 pm (#468 of 2970)
Eponine - For Mrs. Crabbe & Mrs. Goyle - how about big, mauve boulders?



Eponine - Sep 8, 2004 3:44 pm (#469 of 2970)
That's almost exactly what I was thinking! (insert cute smiley face here)



S.E. Jones - Sep 8, 2004 4:00 pm (#470 of 2970)
Siriusly, I moved your post on Alchemy to the "Alchemy" thread. Let's keep all alchemy on the "Alchemy" thread, please....

Thanks!



TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 8, 2004 4:07 pm (#471 of 2970)
Mauve? I was thinking lumpy grey...



Siriusly - Sep 8, 2004 4:16 pm (#472 of 2970)
SE, did you tell them that you did it and not me? I would have posted it there if I thought it would have fit in, never does. They are way over my head, what I posted is way to simple for them. It took me two hours to try and word that right so everyone would be able to understand it. Dang, now I have to delete it. I could have spent two hours on my homework instead.



S.E. Jones - Sep 8, 2004 4:31 pm (#473 of 2970)
Why delete it? It gives a nice basic rundown for all members who don't follow Alchemy very well but might like to join in the "Alchemy" thread. It isn't their own specific thread; it's there for everyone, whether they like it or not....



Siriusly - Sep 8, 2004 4:43 pm (#474 of 2970)
But who would read it after they read the first 100 mind blowing posts? They would never get that far.



S.E. Jones - Sep 8, 2004 4:46 pm (#475 of 2970)
People get that far. Trust me. Some people just hit "Recent" at the bottom of their page and skip the first 100 or so posts. It happens all the time....



Siriusly - Sep 8, 2004 5:13 pm (#476 of 2970)
I told you that would happen.



Choices - Sep 8, 2004 5:19 pm (#477 of 2970)
I personally find the alchemy thread very interesting, but most of the time it is way over my head. I would welcome something on there that is a bit easier to understand and follow. Don't be shy, please post it there - something for the "rest of us"....LOL :-)



S.E. Jones - Sep 8, 2004 5:21 pm (#478 of 2970)
See, Siriusly, you're doing just fine....



Siriusly - Sep 8, 2004 7:16 pm (#479 of 2970)
Too late. Calcinated. I will just keep my alchemy on the other forum.



Saud - Sep 8, 2004 8:42 pm (#480 of 2970)
Any more suggestions people about post #463 in this thread?



S.E. Jones - Sep 8, 2004 8:53 pm (#481 of 2970)
Saud (#463): Something that struck me as odd is the number of DE's. When LV calls them in GoF, about maximum 30-40 appear and there are still about 20 missing, dead or alive or in whatever state. So that makes their total number to about 60 MAX.
I do understand that there were many fake DE's, as we saw in the Quidditch World Cup.

Where are you getting your numbers from? There is the line 'Between graves, behind the yew tree, in every shadowy space, wizards were Apparating.' and 'He walked on. Some of the Death Eaters he passed in silence, but he paused before others and spoke to them.' which gives the impression that there are many DEs present and only a very few are named. There could be many that he doesn't name, we aren't given an actual body count. Also, there is the line about the DEs leaving gaps and the gap for six people being the 'largest gap of all' which means there could be many gaps aside from the two that are mentioned.

As for "fake" DEs, I thought the DEs that disappeared at the Quidditch World Cup were real DEs that had escaped Azkaban as Lucius was present with them and it is brought up by Voldemort later in the graveyard....



Loopy Lupin - Sep 9, 2004 5:16 am (#482 of 2970)
I don't know that it is "odd" so much as it is just one of those details that JKR has left somewhat loose. "Every shadowy space" could be read to mean that hundreds appeared at the graveyard. I had the impression that it was barely 20 in that graveyard with many DE's in Azkaban or dead. I don't have any real reason to think this other than it seemed like 10 was considered a rather large number when Bellatrix and others escaped from Azkaban. Another thing to keep in mind is that the 20 to 1 comment you reference in your post refers to the state of things some 15 years previous. LV doesn't yet have his numbers back up.



S.E. Jones - Sep 9, 2004 11:12 am (#483 of 2970)
I don't have any real reason to think this other than it seemed like 10 was considered a rather large number when Bellatrix and others escaped from Azkaban.

I can see why this would be considered a high number, considering that, previously, only one man was ever known to have escaped from Azkaban. 10 would be huge in comparison. However, I don't think this really impacts the DEs that were standing in the graveyard....



Saud - Sep 9, 2004 2:12 pm (#484 of 2970)
Edited by Sep 9, 2004 3:14 pm
I am sure I am missing something big that would prove me wrong in an instant. I am waiting for it!

I don't have the books with me and it has been quite a while since I read them.

But still, even though both of you pointed out that: 1) 20 to 1 reference was about 15 years ago and 2) There were many DE's that LV passed in silence, I still think that they can't no way be more than hmmm..500. Now thats a really really big circle. They sure understand each other very well to make such a big and efficient circle.

As for "fake" DEs, I thought the DEs that disappeared at the Quidditch World Cup were real DEs that had escaped Azkaban as Lucius was present with them and it is brought up by Voldemort later in the graveyard....

I didn't understand that clearly. Can you please say more on that?



haymoni - Sep 9, 2004 3:11 pm (#485 of 2970)
Not to change the subject, but has anyone noticed that none of the students are from Hogsmeade? Don't you find that a bit odd?

Never having been to Boarding School, but having been away to college, we knew who the "Townie" kids were - the kids that were from the college town itself.

If it is entirely a Wizard community, shouldn't someone in the town have reproduced in the last 11 to 18 years?

Or are the townspeople all old? Madame Rosmerta isn't exactly young, there was an older man in the storage area at Honeydukes, I can't recall much about Madame Puddifoot, Aberforth is old.

It's just strange.



Catherine - Sep 9, 2004 3:15 pm (#486 of 2970)
Haymoni,

You do have a point. None of the kids seem to have "Hogsmeade" as their home address.

As I live in a university town myself, I realized once I read your post that the lack of "Townies" is a bit odd.



S.E. Jones - Sep 9, 2004 5:10 pm (#487 of 2970)
Saud: I didn't understand that clearly. Can you please say more on that?

I'm not entirely sure what you don't understand about it. Can you clarify?

I have to agree with haymoni; it's very odd that there aren't any kids that we know of from Hogsmeade, but do we really know that many personally? We know Ron and Draco's home address (more or less), Harry's (duh!), I think we may have had some clue about Neville's, but for all we know Ernie MacMillan could be from Hogsmeade, or Anthony Goldstein, or some other kid we don't know very well. Maybe we'll hear more about these not so well-known characters more in Book 6..?...



KWeldon - Sep 9, 2004 6:34 pm (#488 of 2970)
This struck me as odd.

As I was reading PS to my daughter, who's finally decided to pick up the HP books (YEA!!!!), I remembered that Dumbledore/Hagrid/McGonagall left 15 month-old Harry on the open doorstep of 4 Privet Drive on what surely was a cold November 1st night to wait for Petunia to stumble across him hours later. That seems irresponsible and a risk to his well-being and health.

Why couldn't they have just made the doorbell ring magically as they were leaving, for example?



Czarina II - Sep 9, 2004 6:39 pm (#489 of 2970)
Maybe they did, but they were in a hurry and didn't wait to see if Petunia answered. The Dursleys were soundly sleeping and didn't hear it, or assumed that it was burglars. So when Petunia finally found Harry, it was a few hours later. Not very long, probably. Petunia probably wakes up at 4 or 5 in the morning to get started on breakfast and cleaning.



haymoni - Sep 10, 2004 5:55 am (#490 of 2970)
I guess we still don't know if ALL students are required to take the Hogwarts Express from Platform 9 3/4.

It seems a bit silly for a resident of Hogsmeade to ride it.

I figured we would hear from some Hogsmeade expert about the best places to go. I guess the Twins took care of that.



schoff - Sep 10, 2004 2:26 pm (#491 of 2970)
SE Jones: There could be many that he doesn't name, we aren't given an actual body count

We are given an approximation by Harry, who says there are at least 30 bodies (GF 34 US660)--only 7 of whom were named. So far only 47 Death Eaters can be calculated, although it is most likely a higher number than that. All other known Death Eaters were accounted for except Jugson.

Saud--you might want to check out this post into how many Death Eaters JKR has so far let us know exist/existed.



S.E. Jones - Sep 10, 2004 4:10 pm (#492 of 2970)
Harry says that he was "outnumbered by at least thirty to one". That still isn't an accurate body count, just a quick estimate while Harry was getting ready to duel with Voldemort.

We also know that 10 DEs escaped from Azkaban and that and there are at least four dead (five if you count Crouch Jr as "dead" for all intents and purposes). Also Karkaroff took off.

There were 21 people listed as being in the old Order, so if they were really outnumbered 15 to 1....



Maddest Dragon - Sep 10, 2004 8:02 pm (#493 of 2970)
Speaking of kids from Hogsmeade, if there aren't any, how would Zonko's or Honeydukes stay in business? Adults may buy sweets or practical joke paraphernalia now and then, but the real big market for that is kids. If their main clientele is Hogwarts students, who only get to visit four to six times between October and June, well, how do they stay afloat? Surely they're open at other times, because Fred and George snuck into Hogsmeade at least once and came back with a load of Honeydukes sweets.



Natasha - Sep 11, 2004 1:31 am (#494 of 2970)
There probably is people from Hogsmeade, but we haven't heard of them, and probably never will.



zelmia - Sep 11, 2004 5:26 pm (#495 of 2970)
There is also Owl Order.



haymoni - Sep 11, 2004 6:52 pm (#496 of 2970)
I doubt Fred and George were leaving money behind to cover the cost of the sweets they swiped.

A few visits from the Twins and Honeydukes could go out of business!



Saud - Sep 11, 2004 10:20 pm (#497 of 2970)
Edited by Sep 11, 2004 11:22 pm
Only that when did those DE's we see in the World Cup escape and how did Lucius help them? I just can't recall that as its been a really long time.

And thanks schoff for pointing that solid work out.



S.E. Jones - Sep 12, 2004 12:23 am (#498 of 2970)
Saud: Only that when did those DE's we see in the World Cup escape and how did Lucius help them?

Okay, I don't follow. the DEs at the World Cup were ones that had been cleared of charges (i.e. they said they had been under the Imperius Curse, etc) and had never gone to prison (this is why Barty Jr hated them so much, because he felt they were disloyal since they didn't willingly go to Azkaban for him, and why he fired off the Dark Mark). Barty Jr says of them, "Then we heard them. We heard the Death Eaters. The ones who had never suffered for my master." Lucius was one of the DEs that was torturing the Muggles. The Trio find Draco standing in the woods and they realize that Lucius (and probably Narcissa) must be out in the masks and cloaks, and ask Draco about it (which he refuses to tell them out right). Voldemort then later mentions that particular incident to Lucius ("Your exploits at the Quidditch World Cup were fun, I daresay... but might not your energies have been better directed toward finding and aiding your master?"..... "And yet you ran from my Mark, when a faithful Death Eater sent it into the sky last summer?").



popkin - Sep 12, 2004 1:49 pm (#499 of 2970)
haymoni - I doubt Fred and George were leaving money behind to cover the cost of the sweets they swiped.

Did they steal the sweets from Honeydukes? I assumed they collected money for them, and they bought them - like they did with the butterbeers at one of their dorm parties. I've never thought of the twins as theives. Well, I did think they stole stuff from the kitchens, until we saw how accommodating the kitchen staff was.



S.E. Jones - Sep 12, 2004 2:04 pm (#500 of 2970)
That is a very good question. The passage to Hogsmeade does come up in Honeydukes's basement so it wouldn't be hard for them to steal it. They might have left money behind, though, on a counter or something.... Then again, they do deal in "non-tradable" goods that they get via Mundungus to make their shiving snackboxes....

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Solitaire - Sep 12, 2004 4:30 pm (#501 of 2970)
I've always suspected that the Honeydukes secret passage was created by Dumbledore ... for when he gets those wild cockroach cluster cravings (how's that for alliteration?) in the middle of the night. LOL



Saud - Sep 13, 2004 6:55 pm (#502 of 2970)
Yes now my slow working brain atlast understands the whole thing. Thanks alot S.E. Jones.



timrew - Sep 14, 2004 2:02 pm (#503 of 2970)
Solitaire, you've put the image in my head of Dumbledore scurrying along the secret passage, in his nightgown and cap, in the early hours of the morning, muttering, "Mmmmm! Cockroach Clusters!"



Chad Peters - Sep 14, 2004 4:59 pm (#504 of 2970)
Saud, as to how many dementors there are, or were, we're actually told in OoP.

I belive, Lupin said it offhandedly, that the Death Eaters outnumbered the original Order by about 20 to 1.

If, we follow the names in the picture Moody had, there were 21 members of the order. However, we know that Peter was a spy, and therefore our number goes down to 20. So, 20 multiplied by 20 is 400.

There ya go, 400 death eaters, with Voldie's inner circle serving as his generals, or (don't hurt me for saying it) a better analogy might be a terrorist orginization.

One thing that struck me as odd first, was the way so many death eaters didn't seem to know each other. (think of the trial in GoF).

But, if we argue there's around 400, broken into "Cells" then it makes sense. There'd be no reason for each low member to know everyone else, and further it'd make it far more difficult to find them all should one lowly member be captured.



schoff - Sep 14, 2004 11:03 pm (#505 of 2970)
Check out the Death Eaters thread, posts 30 to about 55. We discussed the 20:1 ratio then too.



Natasha - Sep 14, 2004 11:06 pm (#506 of 2970)
I think Lupin's statement was a exaggeration. It's like saying..."There was thousands of people in the crowd!" when there was only 700.



Quidam - Sep 17, 2004 6:25 am (#507 of 2970)
In Chamber of Secrets when Mrs Norris is petrified, what was Malfoy doing on the first floor after the halloween feast when the Slytherin common room is in the dungeons?



popkin - Sep 17, 2004 7:28 am (#508 of 2970)
I assumed he had to go that way to get to the dungeons. Isn't the Great Hall on the first floor?



LooneyLuna - Sep 17, 2004 12:06 pm (#509 of 2970)
I posted this question on a thread that hasn't been placed and Loopy Lupin suggested I post my question/comment here. I apologize if this has been brought up - I haven't read the entire thread yet, but I will now.

I have always wondered why the pureblood wizarding families have only one or two children per family. As far as we know, James Potter didn't have any siblings. Dumbledore has a brother, but no sisters. Draco Malfoy is an only child. Sirius Black had a brother, but no sisters. The Weasleys are the only family that has more than three children. Narcissa, Bellatrix and Andromeda are sisters, but is Tonks an only child? As for Neville and Harry, their parents were struck down before they could have more children.

If the pureblood families are so concerned with maintaining the purity and bloodlines - wouldn't they be having as many children as possible? I mean, if the parents don't have enough children to replace themselves, we're talking zero population growth here and an eventual die out.



Steve Newton - Sep 17, 2004 12:13 pm (#510 of 2970)
Well, the Potters obviously decided to not have more children because they died.

If you have ever read 'I, Claudius' by Robert Graves you will find that Augustus had the same complaint about the nobility of ancient Rome. (I don't know if this was actually true of ancient Rome but it was in the book.) He didn't have much success either.



LooneyLuna - Sep 17, 2004 12:18 pm (#511 of 2970)
Well, Steve, I did comment that Harry and Neville's parents were struck down before they could have more children. I still think the zero population growth of pure blood wizarding families is "odd."

No, I haven't read "I, Claudius".



schoff - Sep 17, 2004 12:55 pm (#512 of 2970)
Traditionally, big families occur in the poorest populations. Two reasons: One, children die more easily; and two, children were needed to work in the fields to bring in money/food so the whole family could eat.

You'll note that the only large family in the books is not only pure-blood, but also often described as poor. There are no other poor families that we know of to compare against.



Madame Librarian - Sep 17, 2004 1:56 pm (#513 of 2970)
Barring the anomoly of the Weasleys, perhaps many of the Wizarding families that were in the baby-having age ranges during the 1970s were too terrified of the outcome of VWI. Voldemort's reign of terror made life uncertain no matter what side you were on. Granted, if the Wizarding world followed the example of the Muggle post-WWII Baby Boom, there'd be oodles kiddie Wizards running around who were just a year or two younger than Harry and Ron. The population of Hogwarts should have zoomed.

So, the only other reason I can come up with other than JKR just not dealing with that issue at all, is a natural limiting attitude amongst Wizards. Ever since the rift widened and became treacherous between the Wizard world and the Muggle one, Wizards have had to keep their numbers low in order to live safely and quietly alongside an ever expanding Muggle population. The idea was not to take over the Muggle world, just to survive and thrive in a small way in their own niche.

I guess Voldemort's arrogance and lust for power is aiming at changing that quiet existence for Wizards. JKR even says that Muggles will start noticing more. Oh dear....

Ciao. Barb



S.E. Jones - Sep 17, 2004 2:33 pm (#514 of 2970)
I just want to point out that Ron did make a comment that showed the purebloods are experiencing zero population growth. He said that they [pureblooded wizards] would've died out if they hadn't started marrying Muggle-borns. That's probably because the pureblooded families don't have many children and only marry between themselves.



LooneyLuna - Sep 17, 2004 3:14 pm (#515 of 2970)
What brought about my question was on the Who's Going to Die thread they were talking about the end of pureblood families in the next war. But looking at it from a population growth point of view, the purebloods were dying out anyway. Thanks for responding!



Betelgeuse Black - Sep 17, 2004 6:19 pm (#516 of 2970)
I thought I'd post my question on this thread since I couldn't find the issues on any other thread.

Hedwig: She's an uncommonly smart owl. She can always find who she needs to. She found Hermione in France at the beginning of PoA to get Harry his birthday present. How does she find Sirius in GoF? Does she communicate with Dumbledore somehow? I'm bringing this up because I think there is more to Hedwig than has been said.

How is Dumbledore watching Harry? DD has been watching Harry and has said as much, several times. How is he doing this? I first though Crookshanks or Hedwig were animangus but that doesn't fit well. We know now that Crookshanks is half-kneazle, which accounts for his intelligence. Hedwig might watch Harry for DD but I don't think she's an animangus. DD must have some other means to watch Harry. Anyone care to speculate on how? Maybe a "crystal ball" like the wicked witch of the west used to spy on her enemies? There is no mention of portraits in the common rooms or dormitories. I wonder...

I just wanted to get this off my chest. Betelgeuse



Saud - Sep 17, 2004 8:44 pm (#517 of 2970)
Was Hagrid the one who gave Hedwig to Harry as a present?



S.E. Jones - Sep 17, 2004 8:54 pm (#518 of 2970)
Yes, he was. She was bought as a present for Harry's eleventh birthday while in Diagon Alley, just before they went to get Harry's wand from Ollivander's.



Betelgeuse Black - Sep 18, 2004 6:32 am (#519 of 2970)
Yes, Hagrid got Hedwig for Harry for his 11th birthday as a present. Hagrid could have had an arrangement with Dumbledore to get Hedwig. It did seem like he was just being nice though.

Betelgeuse



Amilia Smith - Sep 18, 2004 9:22 pm (#520 of 2970)
Here's something that struck me as odd recently. Prof McGonagall started teaching in the middle of the term.

OotP, ch 15, p 321, Scholastic:

"How long have you been teaching at Hogwarts?" Professor Umbridge asked.

"Thirty-nine years this December," said Professor McGonagall brusquely, snapping her bag shut.

So what do you suppose caused the previous transfiguration teacher (DD?) to quit in the middle of the year?



The giant squid - Sep 18, 2004 10:01 pm (#521 of 2970)
I suppose it could have been the previous headmaster dying/retiring, causing DD to take over the headmaster position & Minerva coming in as Transfiguration teacher. This would have been 35 years before CoS, so I don't think it was Voldemort-related.

--Mike



zelmia - Sep 18, 2004 10:37 pm (#522 of 2970)
Or perhaps McGonagall didn't start out teaching Transfiguration. She may have come on board to teach something else at the end of the first term.



Quidam - Sep 19, 2004 4:41 am (#523 of 2970)
I assumed he had to go that way to get to the dungeons. Isn't the Great Hall on the first floor?


The Great Hall is on the ground floor. Harry, Ron and Hermione were in the dungeons when Harry heard the basilisk. They went up to the ground floor, but there was too much noise coming from the Great Hall. So Harry went to the first floor. So what was Malfoy doing two floors above the dungeons?



Czarina II - Sep 19, 2004 9:42 am (#524 of 2970)
He heard the commotion too, and came up to investigate?



popkin - Sep 19, 2004 1:55 pm (#525 of 2970)
I forget that the first floor and the ground floor are not the same thing in the UK. They are in the United States. Oops.



Leila 2X4B - Sep 19, 2004 8:08 pm (#526 of 2970)
Steve Newton,

Going back to your question of the nobility and Rome. There was such a problem with the dwindling number of nobility or Patrons that they actually went to war over it. It was the third war in a succession five. The Patrons(nobility) and Plebians(poor) had 5 wars that changed Rome. The third was due to a decree that forbade intermarriage between the classes. This was in order to maintain "pure-blood" nobility, but it had the opposite effect. The act of making official of what was an unwritten rule angered the Plebians to the extent that not only was intermarriage allowed, but they were able to eventually become a part of the government.

Leila



Phoenix song - Sep 21, 2004 5:56 pm (#527 of 2970)
TBE: OoP Chap 26, pp 577 "He dreamed that Neville and Professor Sprout were waltzing around the Room of Requirement while Professor McGonagall played the bagpipes."

TBE: This sentence has always struck me as "odd" as well. For all of the English majors and literature experts, does anybody know what bagpipes may signify? Maybe they have an importance that I've overlooked before now. Any thoughts?

Barbie



schoff - Sep 21, 2004 6:36 pm (#528 of 2970)
Dream Dictionary:
Bagpipes: Hearing pleasing music from a bagpipe means good fortune and contentment. Hearing unpleasant music from a bagpipe means that misfortune will head your way.

Pipe Dream: a fantastic but vain hope.



Phoenix song - Sep 21, 2004 8:13 pm (#529 of 2970)
Thanks schoff! I appreciate your looking that information up for me. I'm hopeless with links and such, and so many people are just excellent at it. I suppose that the music from the bagpipe was pleasing since Sprout and Neville were dancing to it. Also, I would think that the music must not have been terrible or else Harry would have noticed the racket. I'm going to stick with the theory that the music was good and that great fortune will follow Harry. (And that Trelawney was correct when she predicted that he would become MoM, live a long life and have 12 kids.)

Thank you again!
Barbie



TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 21, 2004 9:02 pm (#530 of 2970)
Dumbledore..."he was one of those who clapped loudest. "Ah, music," he said, wiping his eyes. "A magic beyond all we do here! And now, bedtime. Off you trot!"

Schoff - "Hearing pleasing music from a bagpipe means good fortune and contentment." And who better to play them than McGonagall? Have a biscuit...

Dumbledore's comment has always struck me as odd, but yet, since the bumblebee that enjoys "chamber music". By the way, that does chamber music mean?

Ahh, the oddities of the mysteries...ACCIO BOOK 6!



Phoenix song - Sep 21, 2004 9:03 pm (#531 of 2970)
TBE: I think that "chamber music" is probably what I'd consider to be classical music. I could be wrong, of course.

Barbie



TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 21, 2004 9:26 pm (#532 of 2970)
Classical, elevator were my thoughts. I love both. What really caught my attention was "A magic beyond all we do here!"...

Butterbeer time!



schoff - Sep 21, 2004 10:09 pm (#533 of 2970)
Chamber Music
Classical Music



TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 21, 2004 10:24 pm (#534 of 2970)
Thank you very much schoff. Otherwise I may have been "Grazing in the Grass" for awhile! ;-)



schoff - Sep 21, 2004 10:43 pm (#535 of 2970)
Can't find that one.

I have always thought it odd JKR skipped Halloween in Book 5. Didn't even mention it.



The giant squid - Sep 21, 2004 11:47 pm (#536 of 2970)
I wonder if Neville & Prof. Sprout is a hint toward Neville becoming Herbology professor after graduation (as we've theorized on the Teacher From Harry's Class thread).

--Mike



ex-FAHgeek - Sep 22, 2004 6:45 am (#537 of 2970)
Edited by Sep 22, 2004 7:49 am
---quote--- I think that "chamber music" is probably what I'd consider to be classical music. I could be wrong, of course. ---end quote---

There are two definitions of classical music: with a lower-case "c," it refers to the style (with a Eurocentric focus), with a capital "C," it's the musical era from approximately 1750-1800 (the death of Bach to Beethoven's transitional era.)

Chamber music need not necessarily be classical, although it usually is; it refers to a branch of music designed to performed in a small room by (relatively) few musicians. It gained its name from palace chambers in royal courts, where most of the pre-20th century chamber music that has passed down to us today was premiered.

As an example of differences between chamber music and "other" music, Durufle's "Ubi caritas" would be sung by a chamber choir, while the Brahms Requiem would be sung by a full chorus (obviously, either group could sing both, but the pieces weren't designed with that in mind.)



popkin - Sep 22, 2004 9:43 pm (#538 of 2970)
Schoff, when I realized that I had read past October in OotP without noticing Halloween, I went back and reread everything from the start of school before continuing on to finish the book. I figured I must have skipped past it somehow.



schoff - Sep 22, 2004 10:47 pm (#539 of 2970)
Heh, popkin. I noticed it immediately. I had this whole "Halloween" theory going. Halloween has always been a very important day in all the other books (as well as for events that happened before the books). I'm really curious as to why JKR chose to skip it this time.



Catherine - Sep 23, 2004 3:41 am (#540 of 2970)
I wondered about the lack of Halloween as well. Of course, Harry did miss the leaving feast also.

So few parties and happy times for Harry in Oop



schoff - Sep 23, 2004 8:46 am (#541 of 2970)
Yeah, but at least the Leaving Feast was mentioned.



ex-FAHgeek - Sep 23, 2004 8:13 pm (#542 of 2970)
---quote--- There are two definitions of classical music: with a lower-case "c," it refers to the style (with a Eurocentric focus), with a capital "C," it's the musical era from approximately 1750-1800 (the death of Bach to Beethoven's transitional era.) ---end quote---

An addition to the above: the noted era is characterized by the perfection of the namesake style.



Abracapocus - Sep 24, 2004 7:51 am (#543 of 2970)
For lack of a better place to post this, it does seem to fit under Things Which Struck You As ?Odd?.

?What happened down in the dungeons between you and Professor Quirrell is a complete secret, so, naturally the whole school knows.? (Dumbledore to Harry at the end of SS/PS)

?Dobby heard tell,? [Dobby] said hoarsely, ?that Harry Potter met the Dark Lord for a second time, just weeks ago...that Harry Potter escaped yet again.? (Dobby to Harry at the beginning of Chamber of Secrets)

If everyone in the school knew and believed that Voldemort had been residing on the back of Quirrell?s head, their parents obviously did not take this information very seriously (I am assuming that the students shared this shocking information with their parents) -- especially for a group of people who cringe whenever someone even speaks his name. If they believed this to be true (I think there was a body in the book) it was proof that Voldemort was not completely destroyed and that he may eventually find a way to return. I would think that Hogwarts would have been flooded with owls from worried parents.

Did they just accept this on Dumbledore?s word alone then promptly ignore it?

On the other hand, if people did not believe that Voldemort had been living on the back of Quirrell?s head, then what was their reasoning for Quirrell?s death? Why wasn?t there any controversy, speculation or formal investigation as to the cause of his death?

This also begs the question: If the WW believed that Voldemort had been in fact living on the back of Quirrell?s head, why didn?t this cause a little more suspicion in OOTP instead of most people choosing to believe what Fudge had instructed the Daily Prophet to publicize regarding Voldemort?s actual return?

The same questions could be asked of Cedric?s death as well, except it was commonly thought that Harry had lied about Voldemort having murdered Cedric. Then who did and why no inquiry? Has the general wizarding population been under some sort of Vol-de-nial spell refusing to look too closely at anything that may mean he is not permanently gone?



Doxy Bowtruckle - Sep 24, 2004 7:59 am (#544 of 2970)
I am glad someone has brought into question why there was no inquiry into Cedric's death, something which myself and my partner have been wondering for a long time.

Was it all part of Fudge's denial/unacceptance of LV's return?

Surely Cedrics parents would have wanted an inquiry, into how their child died. Smile

We know the teachers spent time with them after the return to the Maze, but if Fudge was there along with DD Who did they believe?

DoxyB



hawkeyetkdchick - Sep 25, 2004 6:31 pm (#545 of 2970)
I thought it was odd that, at the end of OotP, Nearly Headless Nick knew about Sirius's death, and that Sirius was important to Harry (when Harry goes to talk to NH Nick, Nick knew Harry wanted to talk to him about Sirius). I'm guessing that Dumbledore just keeps everyone informed at Hogwarts, but it just seemed a little odd to me. Especially since Sirius is supposedly an escaped murderer. Razz



Czarina II - Sep 27, 2004 9:53 am (#546 of 2970)
Nick might be affiliated with the OoP. He is the Gryffindor ghost, after all. Just because he is dead doesn't mean he isn't useful. Who would suspect a ghost?



Amilia Smith - Sep 27, 2004 1:47 pm (#547 of 2970)
The portraits knew about Sirius's death, and his importance to Harry, as they witnessed the Dumbledore Explains All scene at the end of OotP. Remember how Phineas Nigellus rushed off to verify the news? We know the portraits gossip amongst themselves: remember how Violet rushed off to tell the Fat Lady that Harry had been chosen as a fourth champion? It is not at all inconceivable to me that the portraits wouldn't gossip with the ghosts as well. Thus Harry's grief would be an open secret all throughout the castle, and it would be even odder if Nick hadn't heard about it.



hawkeyetkdchick - Sep 27, 2004 2:57 pm (#548 of 2970)
Edited by Sep 27, 2004 4:02 pm
Oh yeah, that makes sense. It's kind of obvious that the portraits in Dumbledore's office would know. I guess I just forgot how much the portraits gossiped. But now that I think about it, the Fat Friar told Ernie Macmillan about Umbridge not being able to get in Dumbledore's office after she became Headmistress in OotP, so that shows that the portraits gossip a lot.

Well, here's another thing that struck me as odd. At the beginning of OotP (I just finished rereading it last weekend, can you tell ), when Harry is fighting the dementors and is searching for his dropped wand, he says "lumos" and his wand lights up even though he isn't touching it. I thought that was pretty weird.

Edit: I just found a post on the Albus Dumbledore thread that talks about this, and it suggested that it was a kind of emotional, wandless magic (like Harry uses to blow up his aunt, etc). That's kind of what I figured it was, but maybe it's still important?



Lady Kazuma - Sep 30, 2004 3:24 am (#549 of 2970)
I agree with you, hawkeyetkdchick. I thought it couldn't quite just be emotional magic, seeing as the spell comes from Harry's wand, and not from Harry himself. That's got to be something a little different. If he'd been touching the wand at the time, maybe...but he wasn't.



Loopy Lupin - Sep 30, 2004 5:08 am (#550 of 2970)
Hey Lady Kazuma. Haven't seen you in a while.

(Pssst. They knew they were spelling "Moony" wrong. One of the producers was named "Mooney" so they changed for a little joke.)

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Choices - Oct 1, 2004 4:46 pm (#551 of 2970)
I don't like people taking liberties with HP - stick to the books. I don't care if the director's Mother is named Harriet, I don't want him changing Harry's name to that....for a little joke.



SHEla WOLFsbane - Oct 6, 2004 10:54 pm (#552 of 2970)
Okay, I clicked on the search button, and couldn't find anything on this other than what I wrote over one the Marauder's map thread. I find this odd, and was wondering if anyone else did: When Harry gets his first look at the map the ink is green! and then Lupin hesitates in answering Harry when asked why Snape would think it came from the manufactures...



LooneyLuna - Oct 7, 2004 7:39 am (#553 of 2970)
Shela Wolfsbane - Hogwart's letters have green ink too (I think).

Did anyone else notice that both times Harry is on the Knight Bus, Madam Marchbanks is on it too? Coincidence?



ex-FAHgeek - Oct 7, 2004 7:48 am (#554 of 2970)
Edited by Oct 7, 2004 8:48 am
---quote--- Did anyone else notice that both times Harry is on the Knight Bus, Madam Marchbanks is on it too? Coincidence? ---end quote---

Madame Marsh, actually. And yes, it is a coincidence - JKR mentioned that Marsh was a walk-on character with no other role assigned to her in the explanation about Mark Evans.



LooneyLuna - Oct 7, 2004 8:00 am (#555 of 2970)
Thanks, ex-FAHgeek!



Lady Kazuma - Oct 7, 2004 11:18 am (#556 of 2970)
I don't care if they spelled Moony wrong intentionally or not. He's my favorite character, and it irritated me to no end, every single time I watched the movie (6 times, actually). It just...bothers me.



SHEla WOLFsbane - Oct 7, 2004 8:22 pm (#557 of 2970)
Thank you Looney Luna! I haven't re read SS, in a very long time. Not since I have discovered The Lexicon. Shame on me, I know! I think I'll have to read it again, and keep an eye out for green ink in other places. It just struck me as odd is all. I do have a tendency to catch the 'wrinkle in the bill board' while missing the obvious though...



Amilia Smith - Oct 20, 2004 7:31 pm (#558 of 2970)
I don't remember if this has been mentioned before, but I found it very odd that all of Harry's classmates were so surprised that he could cast a Patronus. He had cast one in PoA, in public, during the quidditch match in which he was the star player, right before he made a spectacular catch. There is no way they could have all missed it. But no one seems to think it is a big deal at the time, and then are shocked and amazed to learn that Harry can cast a Patronus in OotP.

Mills.



Madame Librarian - Oct 20, 2004 7:41 pm (#559 of 2970)
It's late and I should have learned by now never to post without re-reading the scene, but is it clear that the kids were able to really see that it was a patronus? I vaguely remember that things happen pretty high up in the air, that the weather is lousy (cloudy, rainy), visibility is rotten, and what the people on the ground saw, if anything, was a blurry white-ish shape. I know someone will correct me if I don't have that right.

Ciao. Barb



zelmia - Oct 20, 2004 8:44 pm (#560 of 2970)
Agreed, Barb. In OP, the astonishment with regard to Harry's ability was always emphasized with "a real Patronus?" So while other young wizards may have the concept of the spell and even the ability to cast a rudimentary Patronus, only Harry seemed to have the ability to cast "a real patronus" at his age and level of education.



Choices - Oct 21, 2004 8:40 am (#561 of 2970)
I think Lee Jordan was commentating on that game (Gryffindor vs Ravenclaw) and he didn't even see the Patronus even though he must have had a sharp eye on the game so he could describe the action, but Lupin saw it and complimented Harry on it afterwards. If he could see it, why didn't others see it too? Harry was up in the air, but the supposed dementors (Crabbe, Goyle, Malfoy and Marcus Flint dressed as dementors) were on the ground and so the Patronus had to go down to the ground towards them. The weather was described as a "clear, cool day with a very light breeze", so there was nothing to cloud the vision of the spectators. Why did no one see the Patronus and comment on it except Lupin and why were Lee Jordan and the others so surprised later that Harry could produce a corporal Patronus when he had already done it right before their very eyes?



Loopy Lupin - Oct 21, 2004 9:40 am (#562 of 2970)
corporal Patronus-- Choices

"Corporal Patronus, sir, reporting for duty!" Hehe. Sorry Choices.

Yes, this is odd. I think some canon is required here. What exactly did Harry manage to produce there? Maybe Lupin was just trying to build confidence?



haymoni - Oct 21, 2004 11:02 am (#563 of 2970)
Dumbledore remembered the Patronus and its form. I'm guessing there aren't too many students that have actually seen a Patronus so they might not have recognized it as such.

Where was the Quaffle? Where was the Snitch? People may have been looking at other parts of the game and didn't notice Harry pulling out his wand.



Prefect Marcus - Oct 21, 2004 11:04 am (#564 of 2970)
The fact that everybody referred to the Azkaban guards as, "The guards of Azkaban", until the Dementor showed up on the train. From then on, they have invariablly been Dementors.



Madame Librarian - Oct 21, 2004 2:22 pm (#565 of 2970)
Aaack, Choices, I was getting the dementor/Quidditch game mixed up with another one where the weather was nasty. I stand corrected. So sorry.

Most likely the kids' attention was focused on many other things, not an unusual whitish thing emanating from Harry's wand at that moment. Most players don't even have their wands drawn during a match, do they?

Ciao. Barb



Jessalynn Quirky - Oct 21, 2004 2:48 pm (#566 of 2970)
Maybe just a glitch? Jo's a human being, she's not perfect. (although I hate to say it!)

*resists urge to eat avatar*



Choices - Oct 21, 2004 4:42 pm (#567 of 2970)
Their wands are not usually drawn Madame, but I have read of a game (in OotP I think) where it mentions they all carry their wands when playing, which I found odd - since they can't legally use them during a game, why carry them? Maybe it's the old "always be prepared" thing.

You are quite right Loopy Lupin - my apologies for the spelling error - corporeal patronus it should read. Spelling is obviously not my best subject.



Amilia Smith - Oct 21, 2004 5:48 pm (#568 of 2970)
I love this place! I bring in a question that has been bothering me for over a year, and get perfectly plausible, logical explanations within 24 hours! There is a lot going on in a Quidditch game, and while I doubt all of Harry's classmates could have missed his Patronus (and yes, it was a corporeal Patronus), this explanation could take care of many of them. Add to this Haymoni's hypothesis that not many of the students would have recognized a Patronus if they saw it, and I now feel somewhat better about this little glitch.

Mills.



Classicsquid592 - Oct 21, 2004 7:19 pm (#569 of 2970)
Near the end of Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, Lupin comes to the Shrieking Shack because he sees Peter running down the passageway into the willow on the map, later Snape enters the shack saying that he saw Lupin going down the tunnel on the map. Why did neither of them see Harry and Hermione in two places at once? When did Lupin start looking at the map? If he saw the group going to the shack would he not have seen Harry and Hermione freeing Buckbeak?

Having posted this I am starting to assume that I am missing something painfully obvious, but it is too late to think I suppose. Oh well, the worst I can do is make a fool of myself.



Her-melanie - Oct 22, 2004 4:54 am (#570 of 2970)
That is a very good observation Classicsquid, but I feel like Jo has already answered something similar to this. The map is very big and complex, and there are lots and lots of dots on it. If you already saw HRH somewhere on the map, you wouldn't look elsewhere for them. Snape focused on the map to see where Lupin was going, and then saw HRH. Once your attenion is focused on one situation, you probably wouldn't scan the map for other situations.



MickeyCee3948 - Oct 22, 2004 9:35 am (#571 of 2970)
Classicsquid592 - I believe they were on the edge of the forest and I don't remember if the map showed items that were in the forest. I also believe that the old phase "you can't be in two places at the same time" holds true. I don't know if you could have seen them while they were using the time turner.

Mikie



azi - Oct 24, 2004 5:10 am (#572 of 2970)
Snape wouldn't have seen HRH when he saw Lupin running down the tunnel because the Shrieking Shack isn't on the map. I seem to remember someone saying 'I saw you running along the tunnel and out of sight.' Or something to that effect. However, I have no explanation for Lupin. I can only assume he was distracted by the events at the Whomping Willow.



Choices - Oct 25, 2004 8:17 am (#573 of 2970)
This is sort of nit-picky, but it struck me as odd: It concerns the weather at the Quidditch game in OotP (The Lion and the Serpent chapter). When Ron and Harry are walking to the Quidditch pitch to change clothes for the game, Harry notices that there was "no wind at all and the sky was a uniform pearly white, which meant that visibility would be good without the drawback of direct sunlight in the eyes." They change clothes and "march in a single file out of the changing room and into the dazzling sunlight" and then it mentions Crabbe and Goyle "blinking stupidly in the sunlight" and the sunlight gleaming on Malfoy's white blond head. We go from a description of how there would be no direct sunlight to get in their eyes, to dazzling sunlight. Now I know the weather can be changable, but this struck me as odd.



Prefect Marcus - Oct 25, 2004 8:44 am (#574 of 2970)
Simple -- there was a momentary break in the clouds, making the brief glimpse all the more dazzling.



legolas - Oct 25, 2004 2:54 pm (#575 of 2970)
Four seasons in one hour is so possible in the UK.



Jessalynn Quirky - Oct 25, 2004 6:05 pm (#576 of 2970)
I agree with Marcus.

And don't worry about nitpicky, Choices, we're all like that or we wouldn't be here. ;-)



Madame Pomfrey - Oct 29, 2004 10:16 am (#577 of 2970)
I recently posted this on the Rita Skeeter thread but thought it belonged here also.I find it odd that Rita Skeeter allowed Draco Malfoy to see her in her animagus form while keeping it hidden from everyone else.I'd like to hear everyones thoughts on this.



LooneyLuna - Oct 29, 2004 5:20 pm (#578 of 2970)
Madame Pomfrey - that is odd. Why would Rita risk exposure like that? The only thing that pops to mind is that Rita is a Voldemort supporter - not necessarily a DE, but she could have been like Mr. & Mrs. Black - thought Voldy had the right idea about things.

Although, she could have been a DE, didn't she say something like, "What I knew about Ludo Bagman would curl your hair" or something like that to Hermione. Maybe she witness Bagman torturing Muggles or something. I know Bagman was cleared, but a lot of DEs were never even brought to trial. I.e., Lucius Malfoy - he seems to be the DE that everyone knows and he claimed he was under the Imperious Curse - wasn't that the excuse of many a witch or wizard?



Tessa's Dad - Oct 29, 2004 8:22 pm (#579 of 2970)
Edited by Oct 29, 2004 9:23 pm
If Rita told Draco that she had a way to get at Harry, I don?t believe that Draco would be too worried about how she was doing it. Draco would probably admire Rita for using her animagus powers to make Harry and Dumbledore look like idiots. Plus, Draco doesn?t seem to be smart enough to look up registered animagus.

Some members of this board have concluded that a Slytherin would use any means to achieve their goal. We know for a fact that Draco would use almost any means. Telling lies or half-truths to a reporter seems like a Draco thing.

Draco working with Rita makes sense, since Draco?s bugged me from book one.



Her-melanie - Oct 29, 2004 8:43 pm (#580 of 2970)
It makes sense from Draco's point of view, but not really from Rita's. Why would she risk being told on by a student? UNLESS she is a friend of the Malfoy family; then perhaps Draco would know.



Steve Newton - Oct 30, 2004 4:53 am (#581 of 2970)
Someone suggested on the Rita thread that Rita must have had something on the Malfoy's and they could not threaten her. So whe was not afraid to let them know that she was an animagus. It makes sense to me.



Madame Librarian - Oct 30, 2004 5:07 am (#582 of 2970)
Steve, I agree with your explanation and think that would make for an interesting plot development.

Another possibility is that Rita hadn't thought this through being so desperate to get a scoop, and that the Malfoy family (Draco, Lucius or Narcissa) will be able to use this little tidbit about her unregistered, um, talent to get her to be an agent for the DE side.

Either way a good story line in JKR's talented hands.

Ciao. Barb



Steve Newton - Oct 30, 2004 6:25 am (#583 of 2970)
Madame, it was not my idea. Jusst quoting someone else. TomProffitt I think but too lazy to check.



Choices - Oct 30, 2004 7:43 am (#584 of 2970)
Madame Librarian - "will be able to use this little tidbit about her unregistered, um, talent to get her to be an agent for the DE side"

I think the Malfoy's already know "Rita" is an animagus - maybe not that she is unregistered, but they would hardly care about that as long as she does her job and follows Voldemort's orders. In my opinion, she is already working for the Dark Side. Draco knew from seeing her at his house or hearing his father talk about her and was more than willing to help her get her dirt on Harry and others at Hogwarts. He may even have helped her on orders from his father.



Jessalynn Quirky - Oct 30, 2004 10:12 am (#585 of 2970)
Good theory and all, but I still don't understand why she would publish the Quibbler article if she was a Death Nibbler.



zelmia - Oct 30, 2004 12:42 pm (#586 of 2970)
I think the truly oddest part of the Draco-Rita connection is that he held his hand right up to his mouth to talk to her. Presumably, Rita was in his hand in the form of a beetle at this time. But why was it necessary for Draco to do this? Couldn't he speak to her as a bug while she sat on a branch or even on his shoulder? Why did she need to be practically inside his mouth to gather information from him?



Her-melanie - Oct 30, 2004 1:33 pm (#587 of 2970)
**Laughing out loud** Zelmia, hilarious! That's so true, I always wondered the very same thing. I also wonder how she operates her quick quotes quill while she is a tiny insect. Surely Malfoy's strange behavior would be more noticeable than just seemingly talking with friends. Or maybe as a beetle she can talk to him, only really quietly. It IS weird.



Madame Librarian - Oct 30, 2004 8:16 pm (#588 of 2970)
It's kind of like those hands-free cell phone thingies where people walk down the street and look like they're talking to themselves. I suppose it's better than looking like you're talking to a blade of grass or a tree branch.

Ciao. Barb



Choices - Oct 31, 2004 7:12 am (#589 of 2970)
I think that is another example of a "literary device". If they had looked out the window and just saw Draco standing there, how would they (and us) have found out that he was actually talking to Rita? The hand to the mouth was suspicious and caught their attention and caused them to wonder what Draco was up to....and ultimately we found out.

Jessalyn Quirky - "Good theory and all, but I still don't understand why she would publish the Quibbler article if she was a Death Nibbler."-------Rita did it because Hermione was holding it over her head about being an unregistered animagus. Remember at the end of GOF Hermione discovered that Rita had been getting her scoops/dirt on everyone by being a beetle - her animagus form? Evidently, it is a punishable offense (being unregistered) and Rita could have been sent to Azkaban if Hermione had reported her. So, she wrote the Quibbler article at Hermione's request to keep Hermione from reporting her to the Ministry and thus having her cover blown by being sent to prison.



Choices - Oct 31, 2004 5:00 pm (#590 of 2970)
This can be filed under "things that make you go hmmmm???"

When Harry received the invisibility cloak at Christmas, we knew it was an invisibility cloak because Ron told us so and we could see it. Why can you see an invisibility cloak until someone puts it on, then they, and the cloak, both become invisible? Odd.....guess it's magic. LOL



The giant squid - Nov 1, 2004 2:43 am (#591 of 2970)
Choices, there are two ways to "look" at this one:

One, it's simply magic. Invisibility happens.

Two, it's tricky--the cloak is only invisible on one side. Think about it...they can see the cloak when they're under it but no one on the other side can see them. Granted, there's a little bit of movie contamination in that, but I had no problem with the film version of the IC.

--Mike



Madame Librarian - Nov 1, 2004 4:53 am (#592 of 2970)
There's probably some magical mechanism that engages the invisibility feature only when the cloak is wrapped around something alive--a human, animal, plant. Otherwise, whatever it rested on would disappear, too. I think GS is right, too. It has to be opened and with the proper side facing out. Jo would not have to mumble, mumble to answer that one. Lots of explanations could be devised.

Ciao. Barb



zelmia - Nov 1, 2004 9:10 pm (#593 of 2970)
The Invisibility Cloak is made using the skin from... I think it's the Demiguise. This creature is amazingly adept at camouflage; so whatever mechanism is at work in the cloak comes from the Demiguise. Also, what Barb said.



Loopy Lupin - Nov 2, 2004 5:36 am (#594 of 2970)
The movie contamination works well for me on this one although I must admit that prior to seeing the movie, I imagined a cloak that you could see on both sides that went invisible when worn.



Jessalynn Quirky - Nov 2, 2004 8:55 am (#595 of 2970)
Same here, Loopy.



Jessalynn Quirky - Nov 2, 2004 6:25 pm (#596 of 2970)
I don't know where to put this, but is sort of odd, so I might as well dump it here.

I was rereading the end of OOTP (the battles in the DoM) and I noticed that at one point, Harry is hiding under a desk, and a DE bends down to look under it, and Harry and the DE have a little fight. (This is all American edition, OOTP, pgs 789 through 791, BTW)Anyway, I thought it was very odd that the DE's name is never mentioned; it's just referred to as "The Death Eater". Was it Goyle? Who was it?!



Steve Newton - Nov 3, 2004 6:14 am (#597 of 2970)
I think that all of the DEs present are accounted for. Goyle was not there. Don't know who this was, though.



Nearly Legless Mick - Nov 4, 2004 2:42 pm (#598 of 2970)
There's a funny bit near the end of GOF when Harry is recovering in the school ward.

P.620 English version (end of Chapter 36) "Hermione was over by the window, she was holding something tightly in her hand"

We're not told what it was and I couldn't find any explanation about it later in GOF or in OOTP. I've just got a feeling it might be important.

Did I miss something, or does anyone have any ideas? I think it might be her time-turner, but why?



Catherine - Nov 4, 2004 2:46 pm (#599 of 2970)
Mick,

The bit you mentioned is when Hermione captured Rita Skeeter on the windowsill of the infirmary; at least, that is how I have always read that scene.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Nov 4, 2004 4:01 pm (#600 of 2970)
Oh my! Lovely evening wear Catherine! I agree it was the capturing of Rita for lack of anything better to say.

...toddles off to another thread...

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Her-melanie - Nov 4, 2004 4:05 pm (#601 of 2970)
It was Hermione capturing Rita Skeeter. That part is hilarious the second time around.



Nearly Legless Mick - Nov 5, 2004 2:02 am (#602 of 2970)
Thanks for clearing that up for me. It's been bugging me for a while.



Annika - Nov 5, 2004 10:55 am (#603 of 2970)
Excellent pun Nearly Legless Mick. That gave me a great chuckle.

(Runs off with butterbeer still giggling to herself, Bugging, Ha!)

Annika



Nearly Legless Mick - Nov 6, 2004 3:27 am (#604 of 2970)
Well I had to distract people from what a stupid question I had asked, Annika. I couldn't believe I had missed something so obvious. I guess that's what happens when you notice something on a partial re-read and get carried away with an idea.



Annika - Nov 6, 2004 5:59 am (#605 of 2970)
If I didn't ask stupid questions, I probably would never post (insert smiley face here). The question had merit anyway. I didn't catch what Hermione was doing until my second read of OP. Have a butterbeer on me!

Annika



Choices - Nov 6, 2004 9:05 am (#606 of 2970)
If you don't ask questions (stupid or not), you don't get answers. So keep on asking....:-) We all want answers or we won't be here.



Saud - Nov 7, 2004 6:19 pm (#607 of 2970)
Then another question of the same sort: How do you pronounce Narcissa?



Czarina II - Nov 7, 2004 6:28 pm (#608 of 2970)
nar-SIH-sa or NAHR-sih-sa



Madame Pomfrey - Nov 8, 2004 5:38 am (#609 of 2970)
I had originally posted this in the ME thread but I believe it should go here also. I find it odd that nobody in the D.A. noticed Maritta was missing during their last meeting.Especially Cho.



MzWhizz123 - Nov 8, 2004 6:00 pm (#610 of 2970)
Did anyone else find it odd that during Harry's Career Counseling session McGonagall mentioned no one had been accepted for Auror training for three years? Furthermore, Auror training takes three years?

Just wondering what happened three years ago that they aren't concerned with (or don't have the means to train)Aurors?



zelmia - Nov 8, 2004 7:11 pm (#611 of 2970)
Maybe no one applied.



Sirius Lee - Nov 8, 2004 7:24 pm (#612 of 2970)
I tend to side with Zelmia on this one. It probably seems a far less glamorous job if there's not a load of Death Eaters running around to catch. Harry and Co. want to join because they know the truth, that
there is still a real threat out there. For the past few years, Hogwarts grads have been entering a Voldie-free world. It's almost like a univeristy grad today setting out to capture Nazis.



Jessalynn Quirky - Nov 9, 2004 4:12 am (#613 of 2970)
Three years ago was when Lockhart was teaching. Hmmmm.....

Although it's probably just because no one applied.



KWeldon - Nov 9, 2004 5:31 am (#614 of 2970)
I think it's just as likely that people applied but weren't accepted. Aren't there high standards to be met?



Loopy Lupin - Nov 9, 2004 5:49 am (#615 of 2970)
If what McGonnagal actually said was "accepted" (I don't have the book in front of me), I would tend to think that the implication is that people apply all the time, but they aren't always up to snuff.



Her-melanie - Nov 9, 2004 6:10 am (#616 of 2970)
Sorry if someone's mentioned this already, but has anyone else found it odd that Harry hasn't asked loads more questions about his parents by now? He doesn't know where they lived, he doesn't know where they were buried, he doesn't know much about them as individuals. He is so curious about everything else, it rather amazing he doesn't know all this. I know it's probably a literary reason; you can't tell everything in the 3rd book of a 7 book series. But really, it seems out of character for him.



KWeldon - Nov 9, 2004 6:15 am (#617 of 2970)
Her-melanie,

This has been discussed recently on the "Harry Potter" thread. Some think that he was taught for so long not to ask questions, that it is not his nature. Others have different suggestions.

I think it's just a plot device for JKR to hold off on giving us information until it suits her. Wink

KWeldon



Catherine - Nov 9, 2004 7:14 am (#618 of 2970)
If what McGonnagal actually said was "accepted" (I don't have the book in front of me), I would tend to think that the implication is that people apply all the time, but they aren't always up to snuff. --Loopy Lupin

Good catch, Loopy, as that is not quite what she said. Here's what McGonagall told Harry in the chapter "Career Advice:" "It's a difficult career path, Potter; they only take the best. In fact, I don't think anybody has been taken on in the last three years." (p. 662,OoP, Scholastic paperback)

I think we can still assume that maybe the students who applied for Auror training were not up to snuff. The DADA job has been "jinxed" for years, so it's quite possible that the students are not achieving a superior level in that area. The eligible base of recruits, already small, might well be miniscule.

But there is a difference between "accepted" and "taken on." I'm wondering if the Ministry was not really looking to recruit new Aurors. If Fudge has convinced himself that the world is safe and rosy, then perhaps taking on young wizards for Auror training isn't really a priority. I'm wondering even if reasonably eligible candidates did apply, if the Ministry was even accepting applications.




Madame Librarian - Nov 9, 2004 10:34 am (#619 of 2970)
Although I would give more weight to the many apply-none were eligible suggestion, what Catherine said about the MoM not looking to recruit newbies may be an issue. Fudge has always seen DD as his rival in authority as far as the general wizarding public is concerned. Yet, even though he was chosen (elected? appointed?) to be the ministry head because DD refused the position, Fudge had relied greatly on DD's advice and counsel. I wonder if he's always been reluctant to take on too large a crop of Hogwarts graduates, suspecting that DD will gain more and more sway with a powerful group of specialists who are MoM employees.

The 3 years gap dovetails with the Chamber episode. The Quirrell episode from PS has already made the rumor circuit, and, no doubt, Fudge would like to pooh-pooh the idea that Voldemort is back for reasons known only to Fudge himself or because he truly has blinders on. The diary incident, Dobby being freed, the repetition of the Dark One's name once again (even though it's a diary-Tom version), all these things make Fudge very nervous about the goings on at Hogwarts.

Either explanation could work.

Ciao. Barb



Loopy Lupin - Nov 9, 2004 1:03 pm (#620 of 2970)
Thanks for the quote Catherine. Smile I can see a difference between "taken on" and "accepted," but seeing the actual quote made more convinced that it was a matter of a lack of talent. More convinced, that is, until the Fudge possibility was mentioned. It is entirely possible that Fudge was causing suitable aurors to be rejected. However, I ultimately don't think this is a detail that will prove to be true or to be important. I think the point JKR was trying to make is that Aurors are an exclusive group.



dizzy lizzy - Nov 9, 2004 1:46 pm (#621 of 2970)
Having started a reread of GoF last night I have two questions (I'm not sure if this is the right thread but here goes). If there is a thread - pointers would be welcome.

Were the three Riddles who were killed early on in Chapter One Tom Riddles' Father and Grandparents? I think so but just checking...

Who owns the Riddle house now? That is who's the rich person who is letting it fall down and continue paying Frank Bryce to do the gardening?

Ta for your help.

Many grins to all and have a happy day.

Lizzy



Madame Librarian - Nov 9, 2004 2:13 pm (#622 of 2970)
Oooh, nice puzzle to ponder, Lizzy.

My vote goes for Voldemort being the heir and current owner of the Riddle place. That's where he's holed up, or was till OoP.

Frank Bryce's discovery of the...um, suspicious occupants back at the opening chapter of GoF, was a fluke. Voldemort and Wormtail had just arrived, perhaps, relieved to have a seemingly abandoned place to settle to make their plans and regroup, and, uh oh, Bryce stumbles upon them. Having made the upkeep arrangements long ago while still mostly Tom Riddle, Voldemort has simply forgotten the specifics of the arrangement. No matter--he just zaps the poor guy as soon as he gets in the way. Maybe it's a little sooner than he planned. Maybe Bryce wasn't supposed to be living there, but, at this point, it's no biggie to the Dark Lord. He's got other things on his mind.

So as current owner, he magicks protections and whatnot on the place so the Little Hangleton residents don't come a-snooping. They may wonder where Bryce has gone off to, but that's as far as they get. Of course, DD includes Bryce on the list of mysteriously "disappeared" ones, so he's probably quite suspicious of the mansion's role in all of this.

[I ask, was Bryce's body ever discovered? Can't remember. If yes, then the townspeople were able to go into the Riddle house. Hmmm. Well, maybe Voldemort and Wormtail were able to lie low with protections on themselves, not the whole house. Have I just gotten myself into a corner here? Help!]

Ciao. Barb



Eponine - Nov 9, 2004 4:22 pm (#623 of 2970)
GoF UK hardback p. 522 "And there was a third disappearance, one which the Ministry, I regret to say, does not consider of any importance, for it concerns a Muggle. His name was Frank Bryce, he lived in the village where Voldemort's father grew up, and he has not been seen since last August. You see, I read the Muggle newspapers, unlike most of my Ministry friends."

So, from this I am assuming that his body was never found. We can't know if anyone went looking for him in the house or if they were sent away by Muggle-repelling charms.

I've heard one theory that says Lucius Malfoy owns the Riddle House. I suppose it's possible.



hawkeyetkdchick - Nov 9, 2004 6:13 pm (#624 of 2970)
Edited by Nov 9, 2004 6:27 pm
There is a gap of time between when the Riddles died (and yes, it was Voldemort's father and grandparents that died), and when the owner in GoF purchased the house. In that first chapter in GoF, it mentions that others had bought the house, but never stayed long.

Edit: Here's something I thought was a little odd. In PoA, during the scene in the Shrieking Shack, Sirius says to Peter "It must have been the finest moment of your miserable life, telling Voldemort you could hand him the Potters." Not Harry, but "the Potters." Also, a little later Sirius says (to Peter again) "...to deliver the last Potter to them." Again, not Harry, but the last Potter. Also, all of the Potters are dead except Harry, so I thought this was really strange. If this has been brought up before, sorry, and could you point me toward the correct thread?



Her-melanie - Nov 9, 2004 7:25 pm (#625 of 2970)
Dizzy Lizzy, I always wondered who the rich owner was too, and my money is on Lucius Malfoy. He seems to have made it his responsibility to amass the Dark Lord's property as much as he could (the Diary, for example).

Hawkeyetkdchick, that is a VERY GOOD point; why such focus on all the Potters?? Harry sees a good many people in the Mirror of Erised; did Voldemort wipe them ALL out, and if so, WHY?? So many questions and only 2 books left...



Mrs Brisbee - Nov 9, 2004 7:39 pm (#626 of 2970)
I think Peter just didn't know the prophecy, and Voldemort wasn't about to let anyone know he was after the one person who had the power to vanquish him. Most of the DE probably thought he was after "the Potters" and "the Longbottoms," not their baby sons. If Sirius did know enough of the prophecy to know what Voldemort was after, he probably had enough presence of mind not to go blurting it out in front of everyone in the Shieking Shack. Hmm, Sirius showing restraint...

I've got something that's been bugging me since the first time I read PoA. At the end of the book, in "Owl Post Again," Dumble asks Fudge if the Dementors will be removed from Hogwarts grounds. And Fudge replies that they would have to go :"Never dreamed they'd attempt to administer the Kiss on an innocent boy...."

How did Fudge know the Dementors had tried to Kiss Harry?



Her-melanie - Nov 9, 2004 7:46 pm (#627 of 2970)
I think Fudge knew because Snape found Sirius and Harry unconscious, and he probably saw the dementors leaving the lake as he was approaching it. It would make sense for Sirius to be unconscious- that's just the dementors doing their job. It wouldn't make sense for Harry to be unconscious too, unless the dementors attempted to kiss him as well.



Mrs Brisbee - Nov 9, 2004 7:52 pm (#628 of 2970)
Yes, but Hermione was unconcious too, and all of them kept their souls. Snape said he didn't see what had driven off the Dementors, that they were already retreating when he got there. So how did Fudge know specifically that a dementor tried to Kiss Harry?



dizzy lizzy - Nov 9, 2004 8:00 pm (#629 of 2970)
I had a thought in reading through the posts, and I feel that whoever the new owner ultimately was, was knowledgeable about Dark Lord and perhaps Her-melanie has a point. Lucius Malfoy does appear to have his grubby little mitts all over Lord Voledmort's things doesn't he?



dizzy lizzy - Nov 10, 2004 3:22 pm (#630 of 2970)
After a day of mulling another question in my mind (why does it all come with a blinding clarity when I'm brushing my teeth???) I finally worked out how to word it so here goes.

In the same vein as Her-melanie and my previous post regarding Lucius Malfoy having his hands on the Dark Lord's things....Who told Lucius Malfoy to put the diary in Ginny's cauldron??? I was always under the impression that the Dark Lord didn't communicate with his Death Eaters/Supports other than Wormtail and Barty Crouch Jnr??

Any ideas?

Lizzy (who's not feeling dizzy yet!)



Annika - Nov 10, 2004 3:57 pm (#631 of 2970)
My best guess is that Lucius did it on his own accord. He would have found out about the Philosopher's Stone and after Voldemorte's failure to procure the stone, might very well have decided, as the Dark Lord's faithful servant, to take matters into his own hand.

Annika



Madame Librarian - Nov 10, 2004 5:04 pm (#632 of 2970)
Regarding the Riddle mansion ownership--I agree with Lizzy and Her-melanie now that someone has kindly pointed out that the first chapter clearly shows that Tom, Jr. did not inherit. Here's the quote (GoF, ch. 1, pg. 4, US hardcover):

But Frank did not leave. He stayed to tend the garden for the next family who lived in the Riddle House, and then the next--for neither family stayed long. Perhaps it was partly because of Frank that the new owners said there was a nasty feeling about the place, w;hich, in the absence of inhabitants, started to fall into disrepair.

Hmmm...I wonder if the nasty feeling was just an echo of the dark magic that had been performed there, or had a particular DE (initials LM) been instructed to make sure the house was vacant at some point.

Why, also, did Frank stick around?

Another question--this one ties in with Tom's story about his abandonment by his father. If Tom's birth was not a secret (was it?), why didn't he inherit? Was Tom's father able to legally disown him just because he abandoned him? Can you do that? What did the grandparents know? What if there was another heir around? After all, Tom's grandparents and his dad all died at the same time, so maybe it was never legally Tom, Sr.'s place; maybe there was a brother or sister (i.e., Tom, Jr.'s uncle or aunt). I'm confused. This whole story Tom tells about his parents, birth, childhood, abandonment is really one of the fishiest things in the whole HP story. Our only source for it is Mr. Evil Guy himself. How truthful is he likely to be?

Long winded, but can't be helped.

Ciao. Barb



hawkeyetkdchick - Nov 10, 2004 8:17 pm (#633 of 2970)
Madame Librarian-

I think people didn't stay long in the Riddle house because the townspeople told them what happened in that house. From that first chapter in GoF, I got the feeling that they liked to gossip.

Also, I am assuming either one of two things about Voldemort's grandparents: 1) Tom, Sr. told his parents that his child died in childbirth (along with his wife); or 2) Voldemorts grandparents were as anti-wizard as his father was. Either way, Voldemort would not be in a will to inherit the house.

As for Frank staying where he was, I think he didn't really know of any other place to go, and didn't mind being alone. He probably liked it that people left him alone there, because they all thought he killed the Riddles.

I can't remember where I read it, but I think Rowling said that we'd find out more about Voldemort's birth in the following books (it might have been on the chat transcript thread on this site), so hopefully some things will be cleared up.



Her-melanie - Nov 11, 2004 6:20 am (#634 of 2970)
Madame Librarian, I agree with Hawkeyetkdchick as to why Frank stayed at the Riddle House. The more interesting question to me is why whoever the new owner was allowed him to stay. I believe (though I don't have the book with me) Frank was even still PAYED to do the groundskeeping. That seems to me VERY strange. The only thing I can think is that the owner knew most of the townspeople wouldn't approach the house since they thought Frank was a murderer. I agree that the whole thing seems fishy. I always thought Frank saying the only person he saw the day of the murder was a skinny pale boy with dark hair was REALLY weird. It could be a description of Tom OR Harry.



Catherine - Nov 11, 2004 7:00 am (#635 of 2970)
It could be a description of Tom OR Harry. --Her-Melanie

Well, unless Harry was using a Time-Turner, the more likely culprit is Tom Riddle, as those murders took place over forty years before Harry's birth.



Her-melanie - Nov 11, 2004 7:09 am (#636 of 2970)
I know; that was my point. I am reluctant to accept what JKR obviously wanted us to conclude in that scene (that it was Tom). I think the similarity in appearance of Tom and Harry will play an important role, and I've always been suspicious of that passage in GoF.



Loopy Lupin - Nov 11, 2004 7:27 am (#637 of 2970)
I know what you mean Her-melanie. I have a lot of reluctance myself in life. For example, in traffic, I hate turning right on red. It just doesn't make sense to me. Oh, sorry if that was off topic.

Anyway, I believe that Tom killed his parents until we find out otherwise. In addition to the GOF passage, there is also the fact that Tom/LV said he did it himself.



Catherine - Nov 11, 2004 7:35 am (#638 of 2970)
Thanks for the reminder about the confession, Loopy Lupin. I think it's settled in my mind that unless JKR indicates differently, that the boy seen around the Riddle House was indeed the younger Tom Riddle, who killed his family.



Her-melanie - Nov 11, 2004 7:43 am (#639 of 2970)
Yes, I agree with you two, I am merely saying I find that part a little suspect. In fact, I suspect JKR of attempting to lead me astray as I read almost constantly. As for general reluctance in life, well, that's unfortunate for you Loopy. I personally enjoy turning right on red, as I am generally impatient and loathe waiting for the too-often painfully slow oncoming traffic.



Catherine - Nov 11, 2004 9:30 am (#640 of 2970)
In fact, I suspect JKR of attempting to lead me astray as I read almost constantly--Her-Melanie

She's tricky, that JKR. I just love that about her. **waves to Ms. Rowling in case she reads this**

Off-topic aside: I very much enjoy turning right on red, also. It appeals to the rebel in me! I didn't know Loopy was so cautious, but then he does live in a major metro area



LooneyLuna - Nov 11, 2004 12:58 pm (#641 of 2970)
In GoF, Lucius told Voldemort in the graveyard that he always had an ear out to see if Voldemort were still alive. At the end of SS, the whole school knew what happened down in the dungeons with Quirrell, did that knowledge include Quirrell being possessed by Voldemort?

If so, then it makes perfect sense that Lucius would get out Tom Riddle's diary. Lucius did do what he could to bring back Voldemort by giving his diary to Ginny Weasley and hoping that Tom would be born out of that diary with Ginny's life force. It's a good thing he failed, but he didn't really lie to Voldemort at the graveyard, then.



Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Nov 11, 2004 3:03 pm (#642 of 2970)
Off-topic aside: I very much enjoy turning right on red, also. It appeals to the rebel in me! I didn't know Loopy was so cautious, but then he does live in a major metro area---Catherine

I believe the real rebel turns left on red.

Goodness **pulls car furiously to center** it is hard to stay on topic.



Loopy Lupin - Nov 12, 2004 5:55 am (#643 of 2970)
Well, left on red is ok if you're turning from one one-way street onto another one-way street and there is no sign prohibiting the move. Otherwise that would be truly rebellious, indeed.



zelmia - Nov 12, 2004 7:01 am (#644 of 2970)
I'm not a Mod, but I think that's enough Off-Topic banter.



Loopy Lupin - Nov 12, 2004 7:42 am (#645 of 2970)
Thank you ever so much for your input which is, as always, appreciated.

Now, to truly try to skid back onto the topic, I don't find anything "odd" about the passages regarding the Riddle deaths. It's implied and then stated expressly that it was Voldemort/Tom. It may be odd that Lucius didn't do more to find LV when, it seems, he could have. But, that could more likely be a purposeful part of the plot.



Catherine - Nov 12, 2004 8:43 am (#646 of 2970)
Well, I think Loopy has a point about Lucius's failure to find Voldemort possibly being a plot point.

Here's what I still think is weird: Voldemort hides out in Albania because Aurors are looking for him? Just what are the aurors to do with him while he's "Vapormort?" He's not really alive, not really dead, and hasn't a body. How are they supposed to catch him, anyway? If they found him, couldn't he take possession of their bodies? Why not hang out in the abandoned Riddle House? Why not hang out in someone's attic? Why not go to Lucius and say, "I need a body?"

I have this silly image of aurors chasing a misty Volemort around with a butterfly net.



Annika - Nov 12, 2004 8:57 am (#647 of 2970)
Vapormorte!! That is fantastic!

Annika



Choices - Nov 12, 2004 8:57 am (#648 of 2970)
Well, Hermione was able to nab Rita and put her in a jar, maybe the aurors could have caught Voldemort in a jar or enchanted box and held him emprisoned like that. Or they might have caught him in his "rat" form and just used a big mousetrap - LOL Just kidding. It must have been possible to catch him or the aurors wouldn't have wasted their time searching for him. Possibly they weren't even sure in what form to look for him, but they couldn't just sit back and not attempt to catch him.



Loopy Lupin - Nov 12, 2004 9:01 am (#649 of 2970)
Well, I never understood what was so mysterious about Albania that made it such a good hiding place. It does border the Adriatic and export a lot of corn, but other than that, I don't know much about the country.

Something just dawned on me though. The Aurors weren't exactly looking for LV while he was Vapormort were they?



KWeldon - Nov 12, 2004 9:07 am (#650 of 2970)
Is there no canon on this issue? I always assumed that the Aurors weren't looking for him because they didn't know what to look for, much less where, but I can't remember the books as well as all of you.

It does border the Adriatic and export a lot of corn

So help me, is this a "Cheers" reference?

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Catherine - Nov 12, 2004 9:27 am (#651 of 2970)
Voldemort tells his Death Eaters in the graveyard in GoF:

"But I dared not go where other humans were plentiful, for I knew that the Aurors were still abroad and searching for me. (p. 653, GoF, Scholastic hardback)

How would the Aurors even know what to look for? I stil don't understand why he would not haunt someone's attic versus go to Albania. Maybe this is an example of poor wizarding logic. Why not just possess a random Muggle who wouldn't even be on the Ministry's radar?

Perhaps he had a secret hideout in Albania, or had a past history there.

How long would the Aurors keep looking for him if Fudge believes that he is dead and gone?

The whole thing is very odd. I can understand a magic bottle, box, or jar, but how do you catch something that isn't corporeal? Can you imagine Kingsley Shacklebolt coaxing the "Vapor-Mort" into a box?

Oh, and thanks, Annika, but I didn't make up Vapormort. I just stole it shamelessly from someone else!



Tessa's Dad - Nov 12, 2004 10:21 am (#652 of 2970)
I believe that Voldemort has made another mistake. He assumes that the Aurors are after him. He believes that he is the greatest wizard that ever lived, of course the cops are still after him. No ego problem with dear old Vapormort.

Since the Daily Prophet and The Quibbler are probably not delivered to his little hiding spot in the Albanian Forrest, he can?t know that the Wizarding world believes he is dead. He must have assumed that the Wizarding World would learn of his multitude of attempts at immortality and know that he is alive somewhere in the world. He could not know that the WW was joyously and incorrectly celebrating his demise. Nor could he have known that the Minister would go out of his way to ignore any indication that Vapormort may have survived. How could he believe that anyone would be looking for him? No one had ever survived the AK curse. I don?t know if he was aware of Harry?s survival.

As far as we know very few people believed that Voldy was alive and would return. I can only think of Dumbledore and Hagrid.

Moldy Voldy was playing hide and seek, and nobody was seeking!



Loopy Lupin - Nov 12, 2004 10:21 am (#653 of 2970)
So help me, is this a "Cheers" reference?-- KWeldon

Cheers to you! Yes indeed.

Ah, of course, the Queen of Canon strikes again. Now that you point this out Catherine, it is indeed rather odd. Why would they have been looking for something which most apparently believed wasn't there to find? There were a few Aurors in the Order. Perhaps they were looking all along on DD's orders?



Madame Librarian - Nov 12, 2004 11:59 am (#654 of 2970)
Is it possible that there were enough Aurors/Order members who suspected as DD did that Voldemort wasn't quite dead? After all, some of the DEs kept searching for him too.

Albania might just have been JKR's choice for a place that would remind readers of Eastern European countries rich in the lore of generally nasty types--vampires, werewolves, fairy tale ogres and such. I checked a map of the area and Albania is definitely not near Romania (Transylvania being a part of Romania), but it does bring to mind that place, at least to me (all the countries that end in '...nia' do).

So, did Mr. Mist just settle in Albania because of a particularly well hidden forest suited to his needs as a hidey-hole? Was there maybe someone there who could assist him? Someone he met on his earlier, post-Hogwarts "graduate studies," let us call them, the time he traveled far and wide learning the Dark Arts? Grindelwald?

Ciao. Barb



Annika - Nov 12, 2004 12:45 pm (#655 of 2970)
Interesting thought Madame Librarian.

Annika



Catherine - Nov 12, 2004 1:22 pm (#656 of 2970)
It is an interesting thought, but if so, then why wouldn't Grindelwald restore Voldemort to his body?

In any case, Voldemort's own account of the time he spent there made it sound as though he only encountered Quirrell and Wormtail, and through Wormtail, Bertha Jorkins.



Miriam Huber - Nov 12, 2004 3:42 pm (#657 of 2970)
Hi, sorry to go back several posts, but I only wanted to add my theory about Lucius Malfoy.

If you read the graveyard scene carefully and what Voldemort says to Malfoy, he states that Malfoy in fact did NOT help to bring Voldemort back. Instead, he fled when he saw the Dark Mark.

Dumbledore said at the end of CS to Malfoy that he probably put the diary in Ginnys book for Ginny to open the Chamber and cause a Muggle-hunt, better: the death of one or more Muggles. As Ginny is a member of a pure wizarding family on the one hand, daughter of a official "Muggle-lover" on the other, this could have been the end for Arthur Weasley. His own daughter!

I must say, I quite agree with Dumbledore´s theory (I suspect it is, as often, JKR´s, too, even if, of course, never affirmed by Malfoy...) I got the impression (and I think it is stated more than once throughout the books) that even some of the "hardliners" like Malfoy feared in fact the return of Voldemort - as they almost all had denied their loyalty to Voldemort in order to save their necks. And Lord Voldemort does not easily forgive...

So, in short, I don´t think Malfoy ever wanted to help Voldemort come back with the diary-action.



hawkeyetkdchick - Nov 12, 2004 7:35 pm (#658 of 2970)
Edited by Nov 12, 2004 7:36 pm
Here's my thoughts on the whole Vaport-mort discussion. Soon after Voldemort disappeared, people did celebrate, but I think that aurors, etc, were still looking for any sign that he might still be around, just to be sure. Also, there's probably some sort of spell that could be used on a Vapor-mort to finish him off. He wasn't very strong in vapor form, and pretty much defenseless. Maybe he had made plans with his death eaters that if he was ever almost killed, they should come find him in Albania. Maybe Albania was kind of like a meeting place so that's why he went there. And that's why he was so mad at all of his Death Eaters for not coming to find him.

The question that I have is what happened to Voldemort's body? I mean, did it just disappear? If you AK someone, their body doesn't disappear, so if the AK was just rebounding off of Harry, then Voldemort's body should have been found, even if his "vapor" had left his body.



Jessalynn Quirky - Nov 12, 2004 7:40 pm (#659 of 2970)
Maybe they didn't know he was vapor--they just thought that he might have survived in some shape or form.

My question is, how did anyone know Vapormort was in Albania? Couldn't he have easily been somewhere else? If they thought he was in Albania, why did they not send someone to search for him there?



zelmia - Nov 12, 2004 7:49 pm (#660 of 2970)
I think above all, the question remains: How did he even get to Albania in the first place? Once we figure out the "how" maybe we can figure out the "why".
Also, how is it that Dumbledore's "sources" knew he was there? And, why did they not simply go after him?
As for how an Auror would have captured Voldemort, I have this image of Jeannie, the Pink Mist, being forced into her bottle by Larry Hagman...



hawkeyetkdchick - Nov 12, 2004 7:55 pm (#661 of 2970)
Zelmia-

Does it say somewhere that DD's sources knew about Voldemort being in Albania? If so, where? I must have missed that part. It is strange that he didn't seek Voldemort out then, but he did know about the prophecy, so that could be why. In the Edinburg chat, Rowling said that DD didn't kill Voldemort in the Ministry of Magic because he knew something. I'm guessing this is also why he didn't go after him in Albania?



zelmia - Nov 12, 2004 8:42 pm (#662 of 2970)
He says it at the end of CS. Something like "The question is how was Lord Voldemort able to possess Ginny when my sources tell me he is currently hiding in Albania." At which point Harry says "It was this Diary..."



hawkeyetkdchick - Nov 13, 2004 10:03 am (#663 of 2970)
Oh, thanks Zelmia! I forgot about that part.



Detail Seeker - Nov 13, 2004 2:06 pm (#664 of 2970)
As to why JKR might have chosen Albania as voldemort´s hiding place:

Up to 1990, Albania was the most isolated country in Europe (except perhaps for Northern East Prussia). A small population with a lagnuage of its own, very dissimilar to the languages of he surrounding nations, just with connections to those part of the Albanian nation, forced to live under Serbian rule since 1918. A very self-isolating policy of a very zelotic communist government (Enver Hoxha)assisted their isolation. so, Albania would be a synonym for an isolated area. Transsylvania would have made a nearly as good choice, but this had already been taken by Charly weasley and his dragons.



Norbert not a common welsh green - Nov 13, 2004 2:21 pm (#665 of 2970)
Anyone else think its odd that Mr. Weasley got 10(espiculy when there was only 20 odd seats) of the best tickets avalible for the world cup? We know he did a "favor" for Bagman (I forget exactly what it was), But it wasn't that big of a favor. Is Authur keeping something from us? Also its strange that Ron can bring along 2 of his friends but none of the other kids bring any.



Eponine - Nov 13, 2004 3:32 pm (#666 of 2970)
Norbert, I've always thought that strange as well.



Jessalynn Quirky - Nov 13, 2004 5:17 pm (#667 of 2970)
Never noticed that, Norbert. That is odd. Hmmmm.....



haymoni - Nov 13, 2004 6:26 pm (#668 of 2970)
Percy doesn't have any friends. Fred & George are a set (was Lee at the World Cup? Can't recall) Ron brought Harry, but I thought Hermione was more with Ginny.

I'm sure Arthur did some arranging for the World Cup for Ludo - Ludo doesn't seem like the type to take security very seriously - Arthur might have done something to help Ludo keep things from Muggles.



Madame Librarian - Nov 13, 2004 6:45 pm (#669 of 2970)
Going back a bit, I think someone asked if Voldemort went to Albania seeking instruction, shelter or help from his old tutor, Grindelwald (that's pure speculation, remember), why didn't Grindy restore him to his body.

Well, tying this in a little with the Dark Wizard/Strongest Wizard theory propounded by Vball man on "The Recurring Boy Who Lived Theory" thread, if Voldemort was once a student of Grindy's, perhaps a weakened Grindy ("defeated" by DD) has no use just now for a fully embodied potential rival. An offer of minimal help or shelter was made, but that's it. Either he simply didn't think it was in his own best interests to restore Voldemort to full power, or he himself hadn't the powers left to do so.

Ciao. Barb



Her-melanie - Nov 13, 2004 7:58 pm (#670 of 2970)
I've always kind of thought that defeated dark wizards (like Grindelwald) became Dementors, and that's why Dumbledore doesn't like them. I have no idea how that would work, but I thought of Dementors when Dumbledore told Voldemort that there are things worse than death.



haymoni - Nov 13, 2004 8:05 pm (#671 of 2970)
I thought Dementors grew like mold.

Does "defeated" mean "killed" or merely "beaten"? Another question for Jo!



Her-melanie - Nov 13, 2004 8:14 pm (#672 of 2970)
*laughing** No, Haymoni, they ROT like FLESH! Goodness, can you imagine finding half a dementor growing on your loaf of bread?! MMmmmm, putrid and scabby!



Steve Newton - Nov 14, 2004 5:42 am (#673 of 2970)
I figure that if Grindy was really a dark wizard then he's be just as likely to kill this upstart as help him. Besides if he could restore Lord V why not restore himself.



lobelia - Nov 15, 2004 8:27 am (#674 of 2970)
Hermione and Harry are family now. More than just friends to Ron. Part of the gang of Weasley. Harry has been taken in. Remember the "as good as" part where Molly is saying he is her son. Hermoine and Harry get chocolate eggs, etc.

Someone brought up the subject earlier of how Lucius knew to put the diary in Ginny's pot. They speculated that someone told him to do it. I have to agree, because: In my last re-read of Chamber of Secrets, I noticed that Dobby knew something was up that was designed to "get Harry Potter" or further the Slytherin cause. Thus the visit to the house and the disasterous pudding cake incident. Harry asked who was behind the design and Dobby said it was not Voldemort, but was vague about who it was. We know think that what Dobby meant was that it was Tom Riddle.

My question when I read this was: How did Dobby know about the plot.....but Draco did not. Who could Dobby overhear Lucius talking to in order to hear about the plan.



Catherine - Nov 15, 2004 8:42 am (#675 of 2970)
Who could Dobby overhear Lucius talking to in order to hear about the plan. --Lobelia

Dobby may have heard Lucius discuss the diary with his wife, Narcissa. Perhaps the scene that JKR described on her official site--where Theodore Nott and Draco are talking--meant that Nott, Sr. was discussing the diary with Lucius "offscreen." While this scene has never materialized in the books so far, it is possible. Lucius could have discussed the diary with any of his DE cronies.



lobelia - Nov 15, 2004 12:00 pm (#676 of 2970)
Probably right about the DEs. What was their main design? Was it to bring Voldemort back? Was it to get rid of muggle-born pre-buescents? or was it to get rid of Harry Potter? If it was to get rid of muggle-born wizards, then why would Dobby worry about Harry so much. In the book we hear that Voldemort initially set up the diary to come back to rid the wizarding world of muggle-born wizards and once he heard what Harry did to his previous self he then changed his mission to just Harry.

Next, why did not Voldemort believe that Lucius was trying to find him, when he regained human form. It seems that Lucius was the one who tried first. Would not Scabbers of heard the story?



Catherine - Nov 15, 2004 12:09 pm (#677 of 2970)
Many of us have wondered why Dobby would warn Harry Potter.

I have always wondered if Lucius was hoping that Hermione Granger would be taken care of by the diary. We know from CoS that he was angry at Draco that Hermione beat him in every subject. Perhaps the diary was a mechanism for ridding the school of muggleborns, but also of the muggleborn who was at the top of the class.



KWeldon - Nov 15, 2004 1:06 pm (#678 of 2970)
Many of us have wondered why Dobby would warn Harry Potter.

I'm probably dreaming this, but didn't Dobby make reference to how things changed for the better for them after Harry lived through Voldemort's attack? Doesn't he feel like he owes him something?



Catherine - Nov 15, 2004 1:16 pm (#679 of 2970)
In the hospital wing, Dobby says that life has improved for House Elves since Voldemort's downfall.

In Harry's bedroom, at the beginning of CoS, Dobby says that Harry is too important to lose.

It still begs the question if Dobby knows something about how important Harry is. What does Dobby know? And why warn Harry? Why not tell Dumbledore?



legolas - Nov 15, 2004 1:38 pm (#680 of 2970)
Harry is seen by Dobby as a beacon of hope. If he was to die then there would be no hopes for elves. Thats how I read it.

There is also the possibility that he may have heard Lucius talking about the prophosy before Harrys birth. He could know that they are equals.



lobelia - Nov 16, 2004 7:01 am (#681 of 2970)
I was thinking along the same lines, although if Lucius knew the whole prophesy he would know how important Harry really is. It does seem that other species know how important Harry is to the outcome. For example Firenze saves him from Vapormort and the centuars talked about how that could have changed the outcome of the world. Dobby seems to be looking out for the house-elves. It seems only those in the Order know how important Harry is to overthrowing Voldemort and I am not sure how many of them know. I guess eventually those closest to Harry will know as representitives of the humans species.



MickeyCee3948 - Nov 16, 2004 12:09 pm (#682 of 2970)
If Lucius had known of the prophecy then he could have told Voldemort what it said and we never would have had Sirius dying or even a battle at the MOM.

Mikie



LooneyLuna - Nov 20, 2004 6:34 pm (#683 of 2970)
Here's something that struck me as odd in OotP.

Hermione hides clothes for the house elves to find so they can be freed. Isn't it only the Master that can present a house elf with clothes and have them free? I thought Dobby said something like that in CoS. Master doesn't hand so much as a sock. So, wouldn't it have to be Dumbledore presenting clothes to the house elves in order for them to be free? Or are the students Masters of the house elves at Hogwarts? Color me confuddled by this.

Please direct me to another thread if this has been discussed elsewhere.

Thank you!



zelmia - Nov 20, 2004 6:41 pm (#684 of 2970)
I think it has been discussed earlier on this Thread, as well as on the SPEW and/or House Elves Threads (which may be in the Archives at this point.)
However, I don't think it matters, in that particular situation, who the Elves view as Master. The point is that they were able to infer, quite accurately, that someone was trying to trick them into freeing themselves, which in House Elf culture is the most degrading form of insult.



haymoni - Nov 20, 2004 7:14 pm (#685 of 2970)
Yes, Zelmia - I don't think Hermione could have actually freed the House Elves just by leaving clothes around - after all, who does the laundry at Hogwarts???



Sirius Lee - Nov 22, 2004 4:41 pm (#686 of 2970)
I guess I agree that Hermione probably couldn't have freed the House Elves. Just because she had the best of intentions, does not mean she was going about it the right way. Laundry Elves have to pick up stray socks, underwear, t-shirts, etc all the time. When was the last time you met a teenage who didn't leave dirty socks somewhere besides a laundry bin! Dumbledore probably has to give the clothes as "master" of Hogwarts. If just anyone could give clothes to an Elf, why couldn't Harry just hand Dobby a sock, why go through the trouble of tricking Lucius?! Also, didn't Kreacher save some of his old masters clothes during the cleaning of 12GP? I have vague memories of a pair of trousers. Yet, he wasn't set free just by picking up items laying around.



The giant squid - Nov 23, 2004 12:05 am (#687 of 2970)
I don't think we actually saw Kreacher with the trousers. It was a reference of Sirius': "Probably off snogging an old pair of my father's trousers." (from memory, may not be an exact quote). Still, I agree that the house elf's master has to deliberately (if not consciously) give him clothes for it to free him. The Hogwarts house-elves aren't picking up Hermione's hats & socks because of the implied insult, not for fear of being freed.

--Mike



LooneyLuna - Nov 23, 2004 5:57 am (#688 of 2970)
Thinking back on Ron saying his mom always wanted a house elf to help with the ironing, I think it is the Master that has to be careful. Barty Crouch Sr gave clothes to Winky or told her to wear clothes. Lucius Malfoy threw a sock aside and Dobby caught it. Now, maybe if Narcissa had thrown the sock, Dobby would not have been freed by it.

Although in OotP, Hermione wants to give Kreacher a present and Ron says, "It better not be clothes." Maybe Kreacher would have taken a gift of clothes and thought he was free?



Czarina II - Nov 23, 2004 8:51 am (#689 of 2970)
I think the clothes have to be given, not just picked up? Or perhaps if the elf doesn't put the clothes on, they are not free?



LooneyLuna - Nov 23, 2004 10:44 am (#690 of 2970)
Maybe it has more to do with the elf wanting freedom. Dobby wanted to be freed of the Malfoys - he wanted to catch a sock, which is why his Masters were careful.

Winky did not want to be freed and was forced to wear clothes. Kreacher was itching for a reason to leave 12 GP and run to Narcissa so everyone had to be careful with the clothes.

I also think the Hogwarts elves were insulted by Hermione hiding clothes in Gryffindor Tower and that's the reason they stopped cleaning it - not that they would be freed if they took them.

I think I've thought enough about this issue - off for a butterbeer and some dragon cheese. Smile



zelmia - Nov 23, 2004 8:59 pm (#691 of 2970)
The biggest thing that I've never understood is why Harry and/or Hermione are always "grabbing the back of Ron's robes to prevent him from launching himself at Malfoy." Why??
Granted, I am aware that on some occasions it wouldn't be very wise to start a fight with Malfoy right under a teacher's nose, for example. But why not on the train or elsewhere?



The giant squid - Nov 24, 2004 5:55 am (#692 of 2970)
Zelmia, the only answer I could think of for that is this: in nearly all of those cases, Malfoy was goading Ron (or Harry or Hermione) about something, clearing trying to get a reaction. It's a standard tactic of bullies--find what sets your victim off and push that button. H & H "grab the back of Ron's robes" in an effort to keep him from doing exactly what Draco wants him to do.

--Mike



zelmia - Nov 24, 2004 7:10 am (#693 of 2970)
Good point, Mike. But "mission accomplished" on the button-pushing, whether or not Ron actually lands a punch. So I'd say why not just let Ron have some satisfaction? Ah, the intricate etiquette of the school-yard brawl. Who knew there were so many rules?



Czarina II - Nov 24, 2004 8:19 pm (#694 of 2970)
Well, Harry and George got the satisfaction of beating Malfoy to a pulp after the Quidditch match in OoP. Pity the three girls didn't let Fred have a go too, since he ended up kicked off the team anyway. Good thing that Ron wasn't there though.



Choices - Nov 25, 2004 10:15 am (#695 of 2970)
After the Snape's worst memory scene when Harry is somewhat disenchanted with his father and wonders why Lily ever married him, I thought it odd that Harry would wonder if his father forced her to marry him. Where, in Harry's experience, would he have encounted a man forcing a woman to marry him? I just think it's odd that would even have occurred to Harry. It's just so unlikely.



Ydnam96 - Nov 25, 2004 1:33 pm (#696 of 2970)
Choices, I was just reading that yesterday or the day before, and noticed that at the end of the sentence where Harry is thinking that thought (about his dad forcing her to marry him) there is an elipse...

Makes me wonder. I've noticed that there are several times where JK has not completed a thought and it turned out to be important. I'm not sure what it could mean. I think the pictures of Lilly and James all look happy, so it doesn't seem possible to me that Lilly was "forced" to marry James. But it is a very thought provoking issue...



Choices - Nov 26, 2004 9:34 am (#697 of 2970)
OK, I am starting my 11th reading of the books and am in book one. How amazing that after all these readings, I can still find things that I never spotted before. Here's someting I noticed last night that I found odd: Harry discovers the Mirror of Erised and as he stands before it he sees his family - about 10 people including his Mother and Father. He notices that Lily has red hair and bright green eyes....just like Harry's. He stares at his parents and then...."Harry looked into the faces of the other people in the mirror, and saw other pairs of green eyes like his, and other noses like his, even a little old man who looked as though he had Harry's knobbly knees----Harry was looking at his family for the first time in his life. The POTTERS smiled and waved at Harry and he stared hungrily back at them...."

Why doesn't it say the POTTERS and the EVANS waved at Harry? Why just the POTTERS? Do some of the POTTERS have green eyes like Harry?? It would appear so if all the people Harry sees in the mirror are POTTERS. Why were no people from Lily's side of the family present in the mirror - was it because they are Muggles that Harry didn't see them with the rest of his family? Also, was the little old man wearing shorts instead of wizard robes and long pants? Otherwise, how could Harry see that his knees were knobbly? Anyone have any thoughts on this???



zelmia - Nov 26, 2004 1:09 pm (#698 of 2970)
At that time Harry didn't know that Lily's name before she married James was Evans. Remember, he's never been allowed to ask questions about his parents.
Also, the Mirror of Erised is what the user desires. Harry desires a rich and warm family life. So he sees all the people he thinks would be there looking back at him: grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc.



Norbert not a common welsh green - Nov 27, 2004 2:08 pm (#699 of 2970)
Putina's name would have been Evans, surly Harry would have knowen That. Also What hapened to Harrys grandparents? We know that all 4 were alive after or not long before Lilly & James left school (from Siris & Putina) H's parrents died not to long after leaving school. could all 4 grandparents have died of natural causes in just a view years?



MickeyCee3948 - Nov 27, 2004 2:43 pm (#700 of 2970)
Choices - I would assume that the Mirror acted just as the WW pictures do. Only wizards and witches have been shown in any of the pictures. We have never seen a muggle in a WW picture have we?

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KWeldon - Nov 27, 2004 9:28 pm (#701 of 2970)
H's parrents died not to long after leaving school. could all 4 grandparents have died of natural causes in just a view years?

I've often wondered whether or not at least part of Petunia's hatred towards Lily was a result of their murders by wizards, such as for revenge for Lily's role in VWI. As Muggles, they would have been sitting ducks.



SHEla WOLFsbane - Nov 28, 2004 10:12 pm (#702 of 2970)
I too am reading SS over again, and came across something... interesting if not odd: Pg 10 American version: "You can't blame them," said Dumbledore gently. "We've had precious little to celebrate for eleven years."

Is it just me, or does the math just not add up there? Well, math or information that we have? Harry was one when Dumbledore said that. James, and Lily married right out of school, seven years of school... That still leaves two years before Harry's parents got to school where, who knows what happened, but it was enough to dampen any celebrations...



zelmia - Nov 28, 2004 10:42 pm (#703 of 2970)
I don't find that odd, Sheila. It's just exposition. Hagrid fills us in on what that means later on when he explains to Harry about the night his parents died.



Madame Pomfrey - Nov 29, 2004 5:30 pm (#704 of 2970)
I know this is trivial but I find it odd that in the movies they always seem to include Ron stepping on Hermione's feet. I believe it happens in all the books(Imay be wrong here)but,they also fit it into the movie's.Why?If it wasn't important why mention it? Is Ron always stepping on Hermiones toes so to speak?Everyones thought on this would be appreciated.You could also throw dung bombs if the mood suits you.



Eponine - Nov 29, 2004 6:53 pm (#705 of 2970)
Madame Pomfrey, I noticed that too, but I thought I might get dung bombs hurled at me if I brought it up! I have no idea why they include it in the movies.



KWeldon - Nov 29, 2004 6:56 pm (#706 of 2970)
Madame Pomfrey,

That's funny you mention that. I noticed in the PoA movie that Hermione says that Ron stepped on her foot when they were sitting down. After I had seen the movie several times I thought to myself, Why waste screen time on that remark? What purpose does it serve? Are they trying to illustrate that it's dark, because that doesn't need more illustration--it was already apparent. Why bother?

KWeldon



Jessalynn Quirky - Nov 29, 2004 7:11 pm (#707 of 2970)
*thinks that Ron stepping on Hermione's foot supports a possible Ron/Hermione ship*



zelmia - Nov 29, 2004 9:56 pm (#708 of 2970)
Jessalyn, I think after the PA movie, it's pretty clear that Steve Kloves supports that line of thinking as well.
As for the foot stomping in the books, personally I can only think of a couple of places where that happens and both of them are when the Trio are crouched underneath the Invisibility Cloak.



Eponine - Nov 29, 2004 10:03 pm (#709 of 2970)
Another occurs on the train in PoA UK paperback, p. 64 "What's going on?" said Ron's voice from behind Harry. "Ouch!" gasped Hermione. "Ron, that was my foot!"

I thought it was a strange inclusion in the movie.



zelmia - Nov 29, 2004 10:12 pm (#710 of 2970)
Oh yeah. Well, it was dark and Ron had stood up to look out the window. He trod on Hermione's foot trying to find his seat again. Can't remember how that happened in the film, but they couldn't have changed it too much... Could they??



Eponine - Nov 29, 2004 10:26 pm (#711 of 2970)
If I remember correctly from the movie, the lights go off, Hermione is sitting there, then says "Ouch, Ron, that was my foot!" What I thought was strange was that the only person in the frame was Hermione, and then immediately after she says that, it cuts from just her to her and Ron, and there is quite a bit of space between them. It most likely means nothing, but it is definitely odd.



Choices - Nov 30, 2004 9:25 am (#712 of 2970)
I think it is just sort of a running joke about Ron stepping on Hermione's feet. It happens in SS and again in POA. I don't remember any other instances of it. That whole scene in the train car had glitches in it in my opinion. The first is Hermione knowing Lupin's name from supposedly seeing it on his briefcase the instant they enter the compartment and sit down with her bearly even looking up at the overhead rack and then the stepping on the foot when Ron is facing away from Hermione looking out the window and nowhere near her feet. Sometimes it's the nit-picky little things that drive you crazy.



Eponine - Nov 30, 2004 9:42 am (#713 of 2970)
Choices, I agree that scene had major problems. I don't think it translated very well to the screen.



Choices - Nov 30, 2004 5:17 pm (#714 of 2970)
I just think it was sort of sloppily done. Had the director had Hermione walk into the car and pointedly look up on the rack at the briefcase and then say the name, it would have been more believable. Then if he had had Hermione sitting closer to Ron, it is conceivable that Ron could have stuck his foot back as he faced the window and hit Hermione's foot. I am a stickler for details and things like this just drive me nuts. It is hard to believe that a man who directs movies for a living would overlook such glaring faults.



SHEla WOLFsbane - Dec 3, 2004 10:16 pm (#715 of 2970)
How old is Dumbledore? 150? In SS, when Harry gets the card of Dumbledore, it says, "considered by many the greatest wizard of modern times, Dumbledore is particularly famous for his defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945, for the discovery of the twelve uses of dragon's blood, and his work on alchemy with his partner, Nicolas Flamel. Professor Dumbledore enjoys chamber music, and tenpin bowling." Now, what I find odd, is wasn't Flamel, 665/6, during SS? I don't know where I got it into my head, but I thought that one of the uses for dragons blood was the stone... I'm not done with my reread through of SS, but... I don't know... How old was Flamel when Dumbledore worked with him? How old was Dumbledore when he worked with Flamel? I know wizards live for a long time, but is anyone else seeing how this is odd to me? I hope so, because it is not transferring from my brain to the key board right now...



zelmia - Dec 3, 2004 10:26 pm (#716 of 2970)
Sheila, you've never had friends and/or associates who were a lot older than you?



SHEla WOLFsbane - Dec 4, 2004 2:05 am (#717 of 2970)
Oh no, I have. It wasn't a matter of finding it odd that Dumbledore was friends with Flemel, I guess it's more of Flemel had to have had the stone, and used it for quite some time to get that old. I don't know where I got it into my head, but I thought that one of the uses for dragons blood was the stone...(or part of the elixer of Life). I was working under the thought that Dumbledore, and his research had some how helped Flemel with the Sorcerer's Stone. With that thought, the age difference does seem odd to me. Apparently, I need to get the thought of dragons blood, and the Stone out of my head though. I knew it wasn't coming across right before.



Elanor - Dec 4, 2004 6:07 am (#718 of 2970)
Well, for living that old and meeting DD, Flamel had obviously achieved the Philosopher's stone for centuries before DD's birth. The Philosopher's stone allows its owner to make the Elixir of Life that will keep him alive and, according to its legend, without changing at all.

But that doesn't mean that Flamel, even after all the work he made for creating the Stone, had discovered all its properties and, in my opinion, that is where DD enters the scene. He certainly helped him studying it. Or I'd better say them because Flamel, who really existed, was known for working with his wife Pernelle who was also an alchemist.

But the Dragon's blood's properties are not bound to the Stone's ones, at least directly. DD's chocolate frog card says that he is famous "for the discovery of the twelve uses of dragon's blood and his work on alchemy with his partner, Nicolas Flamel." (PS/SS p.77).

Does it help?



The giant squid - Dec 4, 2004 12:14 pm (#719 of 2970)
The key point here is the phrase "his work on alchemy". There is more to alchemy than the PS (just check out the Alchemy thread for proof!). Despite a number of people making the connection, nowhere does it say DD had anything to do with the Philosopher's Stone. Hey, maybe that's something for the "Assumptions" thread

--Mike



Choices - Dec 4, 2004 5:13 pm (#720 of 2970)
Perhaps Flamel had used the dragon's blood to make the stone and thus the elixir of life and then Dumbledore simply helped him discover some other uses for dragon's blood.



SHEla WOLFsbane - Dec 4, 2004 8:41 pm (#721 of 2970)
Yes, Elanor that does help- Thanks!

Hey, maybe that's something for the "Assumptions" thread. Too, right you are, I think. And here I was racking my brain to come up with an original thing for the "Assumptions" thread. Hey, yeah, yeah that's it- I went to put that under the "Assumptions" thread instead of the "odd" thread, and missed. No one is buying that are they... Well, it was worth a try! Guess where I'm heading to next?



Amilia Smith - Dec 7, 2004 7:52 pm (#722 of 2970)
I just got all of HP on CDs (woo-hoo!), in a tin, read by Stephen Fry (who is absolutely excellent). So I have been listening to PS in my car, and the following struck me as odd:

McGonagall docks Hermione 5 points for thinking she can take on a troll all by herself. But later, she docks Hermione (as well as Harry and Neville) 50 points for wandering the halls at night.

Are the halls of Hogwarts really that dangerous?

Mills.



Tessa's Dad - Dec 7, 2004 8:58 pm (#723 of 2970)
Good point Mills!



hawkeyetkdchick - Dec 7, 2004 11:31 pm (#724 of 2970)
SHEla WOLFsbane: I think you may be onto something with the whole alchemy thing. I've studied alchemy (although not extensively), and the philosopher's stone/elixer of life were the goals of alchemy (the true alchemist sought the elixer of life). After they are discovered, I don't know what else there would be to work on. In comment to the giant squid's post, the reason there is so much information on alchemy is because the alchemists tried to hide the reactions they were doing by using all sorts of symbols, etc. That way, if they did make the philosopher's stone, non-alchemists would not be able to read it and reproduce it for themselves. Anyway, perhaps Dumbledore is really old, and made some stock of the elixer of life for himself, and that's what he's been living on after the first book.



Steve Newton - Dec 8, 2004 7:02 am (#725 of 2970)
Amilia, one of the reasons that I liked the POA movie was that it did suggest that the halls of Hogwarts were dangerous and not places to be wandering around in the dark.



Sirius Lee - Dec 8, 2004 4:39 pm (#726 of 2970)
The discrepency of the point-docking always bugs me when I read SS/PS. The only way I can resolve it in my own head is that the teachers start slowly (one point granted, 5 taken away) so that the students can get an idea of how it works at Hogwarts. Later, once these little 11 year olds are more adjusted, the points go back to normal, which is a lot bigger rewards and punishments. It wouldn't be fair to a house if, every time a 1st year messes up because s/he doesn't know the rules, they lose 50 points.



hawkeyetkdchick - Dec 8, 2004 7:01 pm (#727 of 2970)
Sirius Lee, I like your explanation about the points.



SHEla WOLFsbane - Dec 8, 2004 9:12 pm (#728 of 2970)
Me too, Sirius Lee. That's the only thing I could think of that made sense. Hey, hawkeyetkdchick- Thanks for the extra support!



zelmia - Dec 9, 2004 7:47 am (#729 of 2970)
Except that wandering around the halls at night unsupervised would be a pretty big deal, and even the first-years would know that. Any time a teacher has to be hauled out of bed would automatically get you a bigger points loss for your crime. It certainly would if I were the teacher in question



Mara Jade - Dec 13, 2004 8:26 pm (#730 of 2970)
Here's another couple of things which seem 'odd' to me - why did Draco get docked 20 points and Harry and Hermione got docked 50? And why did Hermione lie about the troll thing anyway? Surely she didn't expect to get into trouble for being in the bathroom? Harry and Ron could have said they went to warn her and walk back up to the tower with her, which would have been the truth. As they thought the troll was in the dungeons, the teachers surely wouldn't have assumed they had deliberately gone after it?



KWeldon - Dec 13, 2004 8:46 pm (#731 of 2970)
why did Hermione lie about the troll thing anyway? Surely she didn't expect to get into trouble for being in the bathroom? Harry and Ron could have said they went to warn her and walk back up to the tower with her, which would have been the truth. As they thought the troll was in the dungeons, the teachers surely wouldn't have assumed they had deliberately gone after it?

I've always wondered about this, too!!



Eponine - Dec 13, 2004 9:09 pm (#732 of 2970)
I don't know if this can really be explained within the story as well as it can be from a literary point of view.

Hermione taking the blame for the troll incident served as a catalyst for the trio's friendship. JKR has stated that her editor wanted to take this scene out, but she insisted that it be left in because she felt that there needed something to be something huge to bring the three together.

It doesn't have quite the same impact if Hermione doesn't put herself and her image at risk for Harry and Ron. She lost house points to gain their friendship, and at that point in the story there did not seem to be much that was more important to Hermione than pleasing teachers and following the rules.

I never thought it made much sense either within the scope of the story, but if we examine it from a literary perspective we might be able to see the reasoning behind it.



KWeldon - Dec 14, 2004 6:37 am (#733 of 2970)
I understand why JKR had it in their to advance their friendship, but I would guess that Hermione's motivation was to take the heat for Ron and Harry so that they might like her more.



zelmia - Dec 14, 2004 7:38 am (#734 of 2970)
I think it's simply a matter of Hermione being keenly aware of how the situation must have looked to the teachers. McGonagall was certainly none too pleased to find the three of these first-years had apparently sought out and engaged a very dangerous magical being. She was definitely in quite a state, and therefore may not have been capable of listening to even the truth. From the kids' point of view, they may very well have been on the brink of being expelled.
Even though WE know that the Trio would probably not have been expelled in this situation, they had no way of knowing what consequences would be incurred.
So Hermione made what, for her, was a tremendous sacrifice and didn't bother with trying to explain or make excuses, however truthful these might be. She simply took control of the entire situation by taking all the blame - and whatever consequences may have awaited - for herself.



Ydnam96 - Dec 15, 2004 8:10 pm (#735 of 2970)
That Hermione lying about being in the bathroom has ALWAYS bothered me as well!!

Glad I'm not the only one.



wolfgrl - Dec 17, 2004 12:24 pm (#736 of 2970)
I actually think they would have gotten in trouble had they told the truth. The correct thing to do was not go after her, it was to tell a teacher, or the Head Boy/Girl, or a Prefect. 'Hey Percy, Hermione Granger is in the bathroom, and does not know about the troll' then Percy say's 'Nearly Headless Nick, go tell McGonigal that the Grainger girl is missing and probably in a bathroom some ware.' They presumed the troll was in the dungeons at the time and therefore Hermione was not in immediate danger. Telling a superior was the correct thing to do, not go after her.



Choices - Dec 17, 2004 5:47 pm (#737 of 2970)
When, in these books, has Harry ever told a teacher or other adult and let them handle situations or problems? Never that I can recall. Harry always thinks he can take care of things and so far he seems to be right. Although, I have a hunch that Dumbledore bales him out a good bit of the time or at least swings things in Harry's favor by sending things or creatures who can help Harry in whatever situation he finds himself. Harry is just not going to let someone else handle his problems. He is a hands on type of person - he wants to do it himself.



schoff - Dec 18, 2004 1:46 am (#738 of 2970)
When, in these books, has Harry ever told a teacher or other adult and let them handle situations or problems?

How is that going to stop Harry from getting into trouble for not telling a superior about Hermione? Just because Harry does things himself doesn't mean he wouldn't get into trouble for it from one of his teachers. Wolfgrl's right--Harry and Ron probably *would* have gotten into a lot of trouble for doing it themselves instead of telling an adult and letting them handle it.



Choices - Dec 18, 2004 9:39 am (#739 of 2970)
I'm not saying Harry wouldn't have gotten into trouble, I'm just saying that it isn't like Harry to do that. He will rush in and try to solve things himself before he will tell a teacher and let them handle it. Then he will suffer the consequences. This time Hermione bales him and Ron out by taking the blame.



MickeyCee3948 - Dec 18, 2004 10:17 am (#740 of 2970)
I'm seriously hoping that Harry has grown enough after his rash actions in OotP to understand that he cannot continue to take this attitude. Although in both SS/PP and CoS he did seek out adults before taking actions into his own hands. In PoA, DD assisted the kids with their final task. In GoF the actions taken were out of Harry's control. Really only in OotP did he act rash and suffer harsh consequences and he did try to tell Snape what was happening that time.

Mikie



haymoni - Dec 18, 2004 4:12 pm (#741 of 2970)
What bothered me about the Troll bit was Hermione's reaction.

How did she come up with her response so quickly?

"I went looking for the troll."

"went looking for" - not "This troll came into the lavatory and I thought I could deal with it on my own."

Hermione wasn't in the Great Hall to hear Quirrell's warning. She wouldn't have known that there was a troll to be looking for.

Obviously she would know that there shouldn't be a troll in Hogwarts, but why that wording??

It just bothered me.



Prefect Marcus - Dec 18, 2004 5:07 pm (#742 of 2970)
Well, I have problems with the a great deal of the first book.

(1)Why go all the way up to the top of the tallest tower to drop off Norbert when Charlie's friends could have just as easily swooped down upon Hagrid's hut?

(2)I fail to see how Hermione's lie helped out Ron and Harry. Either way (Went to tell her about the troll versus went to stop her from taking on the troll) they disobeyed orders and didn't inform a teacher.

(3)How secure was the stone if three first years could pass them?

(4)How did Dumbledore get there so fast? Did he have to play a game of chess on the way? If not, was there a secret back door to the stone room? If so, why couldn't a bad guy being coached by Voldemort use it as well?

(5)Why was Draco pretending to be Ron and Harry's friend? Why has he never done that since?



haymoni - Dec 18, 2004 5:21 pm (#743 of 2970)
Marcus - I was with you until #5.

I recall Draco's reaction to Harry - "Is it you?" and his offer to help Harry figure out with whom to hang around, but when did Draco pretend to be Ron's friend?

(And I still think Lucius put Draco up to it - "Find Harry Potter and make friends with him fast. It would do us all good if you became fast friends with The Boy Who Lived.")



Amilia Smith - Dec 18, 2004 6:57 pm (#744 of 2970)
I'll add another thing that bothered me about SS.

Why did Quirrell wait until Harry figured out that Hagrid had told him (Quirrell) how to get past Fluffy, to go after the Stone? He had known that the secret was music for weeks, but it is not until the day Harry puts two and two together that he makes his move.

Mills.



Prefect Marcus - Dec 18, 2004 8:07 pm (#745 of 2970)
Edited by Dec 18, 2004 8:10 pm
Haymoni - [W]hen did Draco pretend to be Ron's friend?

When Draco went to see Ron in the Hospital wing and ended up taking the book with Charlie's letter in it.

Amilia Smith - Why did Quirrell wait until Harry figured out that Hagrid had told him (Quirrell) how to get past Fluffy, to go after the Stone? He had known that the secret was music for weeks, but it is not until the day Harry puts two and two together that he makes his move.

He had to wait for a chance to get Dumbledore away from the castle for an extended period of time.



Amilia Smith - Dec 18, 2004 9:27 pm (#746 of 2970)
Assuming (yes, I know what assuming does :-)) that it was Quirrell who sent the urgent letter that got Dumbledore to fly off post haste for London, why couldn't he have sent the letter and gotten Dumbledore out of the way weeks earlier?

Mills.



Choices - Dec 19, 2004 9:09 am (#747 of 2970)
Timing - it all comes down to timing. These are stories, not reality. JKR had to get in a lot of information and set the stage for the effort of getting past Fluffy. She wanted it to come near the end of the book, so she had to make the characters bide their time until the time was right.



Her-melanie - Dec 19, 2004 12:02 pm (#748 of 2970)
Amilia, I think it could also be that Voldemort perhaps wanted Harry to figure it all out so that they could come face to face. Voldemort knew Harry was there, and after all Harry is the reason Voldy lost his powers, and is the subject of a prophecy relating to Voldy's ultimate downfall. It might make sense that Voldy would want to see if Harry could live up to the prophecy, and possibly get a first hand chance while Harry is still young to kill him. If Voldy had succeeded in obtaining the Stone, and then Harry had shown up, no one could have stopped Voldy from killing him then and there. I know this isn't exactly an airtight explanation, but who says there needs to be one?! We get the story from Harry's perspective, and there could have been real reasons for Voldy to wait.



haymoni - Dec 19, 2004 6:20 pm (#749 of 2970)
Marcus - Harry & Hermione go to see Ron in the hospital wing after Norbert bit him and he was "in a terrible state".

"...Malfoy told Madam Pomfrey he wanted to borrow one of my books so he could come and have a good laugh at me."

Malfoy wasn't pretending to be Ron's friend. He just used the book as an excuse to torment Ron.

As for Quirrel's timing, he still had to figure out the rest of the challenges. We don't really know if all the teachers who helped out knew what the others had contributed. He obviously knew what he had done and Hagrid told him about Fluffy. Perhaps he had to work on Minerva and Flitwick to find out what they had done.



schoff - Dec 19, 2004 7:01 pm (#750 of 2970)
I'm willing to bet Snape's challenge was a real stopper to Quirrel too.

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hawkeyetkdchick - Dec 20, 2004 8:24 pm (#751 of 2970)
I've always thought that it's odd that Voldemort trusts Snape. Snape was trying to stop Quirrel (with Voldemort in the back of his head) from getting the PS. Wouldn't Voldemort be suspicious of Snape since Snape was trying so hard to stop Quirrel? It's true that Snape might not have known about Voldemort being in the back of Quirrel's head, but then that also implies that Voldemort does not trust Snape. (I would think Voldemort would want a death eater helping him and Quirrel to get the stone, unless he didn't trust Snape.)



schoff - Dec 21, 2004 4:08 pm (#752 of 2970)
We do not know if Voldemort still trusts Snape. That is conjecture at this point.



Prefect Marcus - Dec 21, 2004 4:18 pm (#753 of 2970)
schoff - We do not know if Voldemort still trusts Snape. That is conjecture at this point.

Well if he didn't, and Snape was back being a spy, I would think Snape's life expectancy to be roughly that of a squashed bug.



MickeyCee3948 - Dec 21, 2004 4:33 pm (#754 of 2970)
Snape does not need to be in the presence of Voldemort to spy on him. Hanging around with a few well connected DE's(perhaps Lucius) could serve him very well.

After all British and French spies in WWII didn't exactly hang around with Hitler did they.

Mikie



schoff - Dec 21, 2004 4:40 pm (#755 of 2970)
We do not yet know exactly what Snape is up to. MickeyCee is right.



Her-melanie - Dec 22, 2004 9:16 am (#756 of 2970)
On an unrelated note, I have always thought it strange that Hogwart's focuses strictly on teaching magic. Doesn't that seem rather one-sided? Wouldn't parents, especially Muggle parents, think it insufficient only to learn magic, and not muggle math, muggle literature, etc? It seems like students miss out on alot of regular learning. I know alot of people will say, "Why would they need to learn any of that?" but I would miss that stuff! And if magic is part of the natural scientific world (which it would have to be), it has to be in some way related to all those other "muggle" areas of study. So, I always thought it was strange that wizards miss out on all that.



schoff - Dec 22, 2004 1:56 pm (#757 of 2970)
Hogwarts teaches Astronomy--a science.



dizzy lizzy - Dec 22, 2004 9:27 pm (#758 of 2970)
Its not that they don't learn this stuff Her-melanie, its just not mentioned.

I've always assumed that there were drama clubs, choirs, chess clubs, etc as well as basic literacy/literature lessons. Its just they never reach Harry's radar and therefore never make it into the book.

And along the same vein that schoff said, you could argue that potions is based on chemistry - just wizard chemistry, not muggle chemistry.

Lizzy



hawkeyetkdchick - Dec 23, 2004 7:28 am (#759 of 2970)
I agree with schoff, dizzy lizzy, etc. I think some classes are like muggle classes (astronomy and potions), but I also think that the kids are taught muggle things (math, etc) before they go to Hogwarts. I think I remember reading somewhere (it might have just been someone's theory) that before going to Hogwarts the wizarding families usually homeschool their children, and since they all start on basically the same page at Hogwarts, I'm assuming they're not being taught magic, so maybe it's the muggle-type stuff. There's also Muggle Studies offered (didn't Hermione get a 320% on a test in that class?), which may focus more on the types of classes that muggles are used to (as well as other aspects of muggle life).



caro - Dec 23, 2004 8:05 pm (#760 of 2970)
Wizard children can go to a muggle school before going to Hogwarts, but they don't really need to (JKR's site). I think that if there were muggle classes other than muggle studies and astronomy, Harry would have noticed when at the end of the year they get the paper to choose their classes. Even if Harry didn't notice, Hermione would at least have noticed.

Something I thought was really odd/mysterius, is that in the third book Dumbledore said something to Harry asking him if he hadn't learned anything with the time turner, and also that the consequences of our accions our so complicated and diverse that predicting the future is very complicated (sorry I'm not able to quote, but I own the books in spanish, not english). This statement left me wondering if the prophecy in Order of Phoenix is going to be fulfilled and if we might see a time turner again in HPP or book 7...



Steve Newton - Dec 24, 2004 6:28 am (#761 of 2970)
Caro, I certainly expect more time travel. I'm guessing more than just a couple of hours.



Choices - Jan 4, 2005 11:09 am (#762 of 2970)
In POA, after Sirius gets the password list that Neville lost and enters Gryffindor Tower, he wakes Ron up by ripping his bed drapes with a knife and then runs out. The next day, we are told that Professor Flitwick could be seen in the entrance hall, teaching the front doors to recognize a picture of Sirius Black. It just seems odd that doors could be taught to recognize a picture of someone. Where do you suppose they keep their brain? Would they be considered something that we should not trust - according to Arthur Weasley? If an old hat can have intelligence, then I suppose a door can too. Anything is possible with magic - almost anything, that is.



Choices - Jan 9, 2005 8:58 am (#763 of 2970)
I am finishing up POA again and something struck me as odd. When Hermione and Harry use the time-turner to go back and save Buckbeak and rescue Sirius, we are told over and over again that they must--not--be--seen! If they are, the consequences are too terrible to think about. But, all year Hermione had used the time-turner to get to her classes and we heard not a word about her being seen. How could she not be seen - she was attending classes in the midst of hundreds of students - how could they miss seeing her? Why the big difference? The only possible answer is that she was using the time turner with permission of the MOM for her classes and the second time they were using it without permission?? Dumbledore did not make it clear who they must--not--be--seen by. Did he mean just by Fudge and the execution party or did he mean by anybody?? Any thoughts??



Dr Filibuster - Jan 9, 2005 9:57 am (#764 of 2970)
I suppose she was just lost in the crowd. She was good at slipping off at the right moment.

Do you think Hermione met herself at all?. It would also be a lot easier if all her teachers are in on the secret, so they could assist.

It just goes to prove how clever she is, and why she was so mentally exhausted. Ron was the one who was most curious....because he cares about her the most???

What did Stan say about muggles not seeing stuff, even if it's right there in front of them? Maybe the same goes for schoolkids at Hogwarts.

I thought it was odd that when she used the timeturner with Harry, they dissappeared from the hospital wing and appeared in the entrance hall. If that always happened, wouldn't it make it harder for her? Or perhaps she can choose where she appears?



Steve Newton - Jan 9, 2005 11:36 am (#765 of 2970)
Choices, I also caught that. I think that by saying they must not be seen they are saying that they must not be seen to be out of synch or something. Of course she was seen in classes. She couldn't have been the only one in arithmancy and ancient runes.



Hagsquid - Jan 9, 2005 1:16 pm (#766 of 2970)
I think it's definitely permission/non-permission. She had permission to use it in her classes. She didn't have permission to use it to thwart the MOM. Wink



KWeldon - Jan 9, 2005 1:25 pm (#767 of 2970)
Isn't the question that she can't just be seen popping out of nowhere? Of course she will be seen in the classes that she is supposed to be in, but isn't the concern that others in her class will suddenly see her appear from nowhere?



Sirius Lee - Jan 9, 2005 3:32 pm (#768 of 2970)
The time of day may have a part in it too. During the day, no one would think it odd for Hermione to be all around. Teachers know what she's doing and there's too many students moving about to really notice anyway. But in the evening, when most are in their common rooms or libraries (I assume), a second Hermione and Harry would be a lot more noticable.

Imagine if, right after being threated, Draco and Co. run into another H&H! They'd certainly know something was amiss and you'd expect Draco to stir up trouble over it. And if a teacher saw them twice? Well they'd know Hermione was mis-using it and wasn't using it for class. Both she, McGonagall and Dumbledore could be in trouble. And they obviously couldn't be seen by themselves.

When using the Time Turner for classes, she was using it with permission of the Ministry - so if she's seen, no one would be in trouble. When using it to save Sirius, she was using it illegally. If she's seen, loads of people have now contributed to her breaking the law.

Also, if a second set of H&H are seen, someone could put two and two together and figure they were responsible for freeing Buckbeak and Sirius. Secrecy was of the upmost importance that evening, much less so using it for class.



The Artful Dodger - Jan 9, 2005 4:35 pm (#769 of 2970)
I suppose that Hermione must not see herself. Wizards to whom this happened killed their own future selfs, actually (at least that's what Hermione says), so that's where the danger lies.



Steve Newton - Jan 9, 2005 5:38 pm (#770 of 2970)
TAD, Harry saw his future self. Didn't recognize him(himself), though.



haymoni - Jan 9, 2005 7:13 pm (#771 of 2970)
The only way Hermione would have thought it odd to see her "other" self was if she saw herself before McGonagall gave her the Time-Turner.

Once she had it, she would know that there was a chance that she might see herself coming out of a closet or down a staircase. I'm sure it still startled her, but I'm guessing she didn't do anything rash.



The giant squid - Jan 10, 2005 12:43 am (#772 of 2970)
My thoughts were pretty much along the same lines as Hagsquid--it's not so much that being seen would cause them to implode, but that she knew they weren't supposed to be doing it and wanted to make sure Harry understood that. Also, she had been using the time-turner all year & had gotten used to the tricks required, while Harry was a total novice. I'm sure she got the same "lesson" from McGonagall that first day--"You must. Not. Be. Seen."

By the way, welcome back, Hagsquid--haven't seen you around in a while. Stop by the chat thread & let us know what you've been up to.

--Mike



Sirius Lee - Jan 10, 2005 8:01 am (#773 of 2970)
Sorry to interrupt the current debate, but this struck me as I was reading on the train this morning. Why does the trio call Peter "Wormtail", but Sirius "Snuffles"? Why not just call him 'Padfoot"? It's not like too many people know that's his nickname, so it's be just as safe. Why does Sirius want another nickname?



Snuffles - Jan 10, 2005 8:08 am (#774 of 2970)
I would say its incase someone like the potions master overheard. I would think that he would know that Sirius is Padfoot, i think he knew all the Marauders nicknames from overhearing conversations at school. The trio weren't supposed to know the whereabouts of Sirius when he was in the cave at Hogsmeade so to be safe he gave them another name to use when they were talking about him.



MickeyCee3948 - Jan 10, 2005 11:52 am (#775 of 2970)
But Snuffles when he catches Harry with the Marauders map and get insulted by it, he at least does not openly show that he knows who the nicknames refer too.

Mikie



Sirius Lee - Aug 19, 2004 3:31 pm (#776 of 2970)
My thoughts exactly MickeyCee. Snape's a smart man - whether he hears "Padfoot" or "Snuffles", the man's bound to put two and two together and figure who they're talking about. Snape would be the only one even remotely able to decifer the nickname, and I think he would do it either way.



Snuffles - Jan 10, 2005 1:25 pm (#777 of 2970)
Thats true but Sirius obviously feels it is safer to use a name that is not associated with the Marauders. In GOF Gred and Forge have not as yet met Sirius and if the twins overhear HRH talking about Padfoot they would recognise the name from the map. I agree that Severus would probably decifer any nickname for Sirius but Snuffles is a name he hasnt heard before and may take longer to work out. I cant think of any other reason apart from "CONSTANT VIGILANCE"



Madame Librarian - Jan 10, 2005 1:27 pm (#778 of 2970)
Back to the "must not be seen"/time turner discussion--the way I understood it was that they must not be seen as future H and H at the same time and place as past H and H. They can't bump into themselves.

I also agree to the obvious point that they must not be seen by others in a situation that would raise instant suspicion, e.g., seen by Draco inside the building a minute or so after he runs away from the Trio outside.

Ciao. Barb



Sirius Lee - Jan 10, 2005 3:05 pm (#779 of 2970)
Playing with time is dangerous as things can go horribly wrong. As such, it is monitored by the Ministry and you need permission to use a turner - which Hermione got through McGonagal, so she can go back for classes only. Should she go back for any other reason and gets caught/seen, well now she's in trouble because use is not being monitored and is beyond the scope she has permission for.

To paraphrase McGonagal in PS/SS to Draco (movie at least) "Honorable as your intentions were, you too were out of bed" (close enough for my point). Honorable as H&H's intentions were of rescuing an innocent man, they were still breaking Wizarding Law. Being seen by anyone could blow their cover of being locked in the hospital wing.



Mrs Brisbee - Jan 11, 2005 7:06 pm (#780 of 2970)
Yes, getting caught doing illegal time travelling was a major reason not to be seen.

And if a time traveller can avoid being seen or effecting their past self as much as possible, it minimizes the chance of creating some major paradox (accidently killing the past or future self being an extreme example). The Hermiones weren't in much danger of that happening during their classes, since they and their fellow classmates would be confined to their respective classrooms for most of the hour.



Norbert not a common welsh green - Jan 28, 2005 2:46 pm (#781 of 2970)
I know this has kind of been mentioned before, but why didn't Fudge know Hermione had a Time Turner. She got it from the MoM, so shurly he would have known. As why Snape doesn't seem to know, I would suspect he did but knew better than to say anything.



Eponine - Jan 28, 2005 2:50 pm (#782 of 2970)
Well, do you think the head of government knows everything that each aspect of said government does? If Fudge had wanted to know he certainly would have been able to find out, but most likely no one thought to tell him before his trip out to Hogwarts because why would he need to know?



Bathilda - Jan 28, 2005 3:34 pm (#783 of 2970)
Don't know if this has been discussed, but why does apparating sometimes make a lound Crack, and somtimes a faint pop. Is it how good you are at doing it? Mr. Weasley can do it with a pop, and Dobby and Mundungus do it with a crack. I think that the twins "crack" too, but I can't look it up right now. My guess is that it's different for everyone, but just wanted to see what you think.



Prefect Marcus - Jan 28, 2005 5:49 pm (#784 of 2970)
Ginerva - Don't know if this has been discussed, but why does apparating sometimes make a lound Crack, and somtimes a faint pop.

I think it is just a reflection upon the skill of the person apparating. Extremely skillfull people can do it with barely a sound (Dumbledore and Voldemort at the MoM), whereas the less skillful make noise.



Choices - Jan 28, 2005 6:23 pm (#785 of 2970)
Perhaps atmospheric conditions cause the sound to be different. Very dry air might create a louder crack and muggy conditions would soften the sound. But, I think it has to do with the skill of the person apparating.



LooneyLuna - Jan 29, 2005 12:13 pm (#786 of 2970)
My vote is for the skill of the witch or wizard. You're right Prefect Marcus, Voldemort doesn't make a sound when he Apparates or Disapparates either. Or at least he didn't at the MoM.



Catherine - Jan 29, 2005 2:35 pm (#787 of 2970)
I also think it has to do with the skill and/or power of the wizard apparating. For instance, if I was to jump up and down, I make a lot more noise than a prima ballerina does, alas earwax.



The giant squid - Jan 29, 2005 10:56 pm (#788 of 2970)
The spanner in the works here is Dobby, though. House elves are clearly as (or more) powerful than full-grown, highly trained wizards, yet his apparation makes a "crack" as well. Of course, to refute my own refution (is that a word?), according to JKR herself house elf magic is different than wizard magic. Then again, it could also be a personal preference--I can see the twins wanting to make a surprising entrance just to make Ron jump.

--Mike



SarcasticGinny - Jan 30, 2005 7:55 am (#789 of 2970)
Correct me if this has already been discussed, but does anyone find it odd that they never show you how Harry makes his dementor-boggart look amusing in POA or any other book? I noticed that he seems to have little use for "Riddikulus" and the principle behind it (laughter) in GOF, his patronus makes the boggart-dementor fall and he just blasts the thing. Still, what does Harry do to make it look amusing? Is the falling over the cloak it, or is there something else he used in POA when locked in the trunk with it?



Miriam Huber - Jan 30, 2005 11:01 am (#790 of 2970)
In CoS, Ron explains that he hates spiders because Fred and George have transformed his teddy into a big one when he was a little boy. But how could they have done it? They are just two years older than him, and changing a teddy into a spider is no small transfiguration compaired with what students do even in their first year at Hogwarts. I would say you definitely can´t do it before your second year, but Ron was surely not 10 years old at that time (so that the twins would have been at Hogwarts in second year)?



haymoni - Jan 30, 2005 12:37 pm (#791 of 2970)
I could see the Twins going after Bill's books as soon as they could.



timrew - Jan 30, 2005 2:24 pm (#792 of 2970)
Sarcastic Ginny, I don't think that Harry could find anything amusing to turn his 'dementor' boggart in to. He was too scared by it to use the 'Riddiculus' spell.

This is why Lupin taught him the 'Patronus' spell, which was specifically for scaring dementors away, not boggarts.



Madame Librarian - Jan 30, 2005 8:54 pm (#793 of 2970)
Back to the loud crack (or silence) when apparating question. I think that Dobby and his fellow elves make the sound to let their masters know when they are arriving or leaving, persumably on an errand. They are probably not supposed to display their expert skill around masters lest they seem superior. They also may want to appear less skillful for reasons as yet unexplained. And...there's just the general observation that Dobby is certainly not typical of other elves. So it could just as easily be the custom that elves go about their business silently as good servants should, but Dobby, being the elf who wanted to be free, made that resounding CRACK! because it worked for him.

Ciao. Barb



Prefect Marcus - Jan 31, 2005 2:31 pm (#794 of 2970)
The giant squid - House elves are clearly as (or more) powerful than full-grown, highly trained wizards, yet his apparation makes a "crack" as well.

There is a difference between 'skillful' and 'powerful'.



zelmia - Jan 31, 2005 8:46 pm (#795 of 2970)
Harry doesn't get to face the Boggart in Lupin's class. Lupin stops him. Other than his experience during the Third Task, I don't recall that we ever see Harry face an actual Boggart. In OP it is Mrs Weasley who faces the Boggart. Harry is just an observer.



The giant squid - Feb 1, 2005 1:47 am (#796 of 2970)
Good point, Marcus. A question (since I'm not near my books at the moment): deos Dobby only "crack" when he's sneaking around and talking to Harry when he's not supposed to? In other words, once he's freed from the Malfoys' service does his apparation still make noise? If not, it could be that he's distracted or subconsciously punishing himself and not using his full skill.

Or something.

--Mike



Choices - Feb 1, 2005 11:15 am (#797 of 2970)
I do believe Lupin uses a Boggart when teaching Harry the Patronus Charm, does he not?



Catherine - Feb 1, 2005 2:04 pm (#798 of 2970)
Yes, Choices, you are correct. Harry faces the Boggart numerous times during his Dementor lessons, although not in his regularly scheduled classes.



zelmia - Feb 1, 2005 7:50 pm (#799 of 2970)
Yes, I was referring to Harry facing one that he didn't know was coming.



Bathilda - Feb 2, 2005 3:39 pm (#800 of 2970)
Harry doesn't use the Ridikulus charm when attacking his boggart/dementor, he used the Patronus charm...so he doesn't have to come up with a humourous way for the Dementor to look. That might take a couple of times to understand it...sorry.

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Winky Woo - Feb 5, 2005 7:32 am (#801 of 2970)
Still quite new to posting and I can't find anything with the search function. So, *takes a deep breath* Why don't we hear anything about older muggle-born wizards? I mean there are lots of examples of students who didn't have any history of magic in their families, but what happens when they get older? We know that there are few pure bloods, and lots of half-bloods, but Donaghan Tremlett( with the "Weird Sisters" )is the one reference I can find to a muggle-born grown up on the lexicon.

Am I missing something very obvious? Wizards appear to have a longer life span than muggles so what happens to muggle-born wizards? Do they have the normal 70-80 year longevity? or can they live to 150?

Also if wizards live this long where are all the great-grandparents and great-great-grand parents never mind the great-great-grandparents?

If there is an appropriate thread or essay I'd appreciate being pointed in that direction

Cheers me dears,

Winky



Catherine - Feb 5, 2005 8:03 am (#802 of 2970)
You know, Winky Woo, I'm not that surprised that we don't find older Muggle-born wizards being discussed. (I remembered that among the "older" generation, Ted Tonks, Nympadora's father, was Muggle-born, and so was Moaning Myrtle, just to add to your list.)

Given that Voldemort wanted to do away with Muggle-borns, and the extreme prejudice some in the Wizarding World hold about pure-bloodedness, I can see that it would not be something that Muggle-borns would be thrilled to talk about.

Perhaps many Muggle-borns died during Voldemort's first reign of terror. But the books are written from Harry's point of view, and he does not know that many older wizards outside of Hogwarts. Those he does know, he may not know well enough to know their backgrounds.



Choices - Feb 5, 2005 9:55 am (#803 of 2970)
I agree Catherine - I think once a Muggle born wizard reaches maturity and gets established in a career, there is just no point to discussing whether they are pure-blood or Muggle born or whatever. Harry would never presume to question the lineage of one of his teachers or Dumbledore - I don't think he cares what someone is. He judges more on their personality and their heart, not on what runs through their veins. JKR makes a point of showing that it is not what you are born that is important, it's what you choose to do with your life - it's not your abilities, but the choices you make. If she had Harry make a big deal about someone being Muggle born or pure blood, then it would appear to be important.....and she wants us to get the point that it's not.



Denise P. - Feb 5, 2005 10:01 am (#804 of 2970)
I think it is also that apparently a large percentage of the wizarding population really doesn't care if someone is muggle born or not. Only a certain group has that as a major concern. I don't think most wizards think about or worry who is muggle born because as Dumbledore says, it is choices that define a person.

"It matters not what someone is born, but what they grow to be!"



zelmia - Feb 5, 2005 10:38 am (#805 of 2970)
Isn't Ted Tonks a Muggle? So I guess that would make him Muggle-born (ha!) I too think that's an interesting question. Apart from Lily Evans Potter, we really don't have any idea who the adult Muggle-Born Wizards are. Not that it matters, of course. But it is an interesting thought.



Catherine - Feb 5, 2005 12:26 pm (#806 of 2970)
No, Zelmia. Ted Tonks is not a Muggle, although he is a Muggle-born.

Tonks tells Harry, "My dad's Muggle-born, and he's a right old slob." (OoP, p. 50, Scholastic hardback).

Later, Sirius tells Harry, "...but Andromeda married a Muggle-born, Ted Tonks, so..." (OoP, p. 113, Scholastic hardback)

I hope that clears things up.



The giant squid - Feb 6, 2005 12:37 am (#807 of 2970)
The thing I find odd (and it's been mentioned elsewhere), is that with muggle-borns around--even if there aren't a lot of them--why doesn't the wizarding world have at least a slight understanding of the muggle world? You'd think there'd be at least one muggle-born working for the MoM that could explain "eckeltricity" to Arthur Weasley...

--Mike



Madame Librarian - Feb 6, 2005 6:01 am (#808 of 2970)
GS, I agree! It is odd that Hermione, say, rarely injects her Miss-Know-It-All-ness on issues of Muggle life. The telephone business when Ron totally messes up his attempt to call Harry is a one of the few instances where a comment is made about how to leave it to her next time.

I have come to the simple conclusion that Madame Author decided not to go there. She didn't want a blurring of the edges of the two worlds, so she could totally immerse us in the magical one for the great majority of the story. I have the relaitvely lame explanation of my own that given that we see things through Harry's eyes, we learn things about the magical world as he does, and we accompany him on his journey away from the Muggle world (where his life was miserable and limited) to a universe he adores. When we don't hear kids sharing Muggle experiences it is probably due to a selective hearing and telling on his part. JKR has injected just a hint of throw-away comments here and there, and that is how she wished to structure the tale.

I suspect there may be more crossover instances in the next two books since we have been told that Muggles will begin to notice things magical more during VWII.

Ciao. Barb



Choices - Feb 6, 2005 9:29 am (#809 of 2970)
I found something I consider odd last night. Let me say first that I know it had to happen the way it did for the story, but.....I was reading GOF and Harry had learned the summoning spell for the first task - he had yelled "accio Firebolt" and his broomstick had come flying from the castle and stopped right in front of Harry. I think it was Professor Flitwick who had even complimented Harry on his excellent summoning spell. Then, after Harry goes to the prefect's bathroom to bathe and study the egg for the next task, he forgets to jump the trick step and gets his leg caught, dropping the map and the egg. He pulls out his wand and tries to reach the map, but can't. WHY didn't he use the excellent summoning spell he had just learned and done so well with in the first task???? He could have simply said "accio map" and "accio egg". Of course, he would have still been trapped with his leg in the hole in the stairs, but the map and the egg would have been safely under the invisibility cloak with him.



LooneyLuna - Feb 6, 2005 12:14 pm (#810 of 2970)
I think at that point, that Harry still thinks like a muggle - looks for muggle solutions before using spells. He's still feeling his way as a wizard, it just doesn't come naturally to him. But by OotP, he's doing a reparo spell without thinking about it (on the bowl that contained murtlap essence).

Just my two knuts. Smile



Norbert not a common welsh green - Feb 6, 2005 1:02 pm (#811 of 2970)
I belive JKR answerd that Question in a interview (dont Know which one). She said something like she didnt want Harry to be like James Bond with the right spell on his fingertips all the time.



Denise P. - Feb 6, 2005 1:29 pm (#812 of 2970)
Sometimes, under stress, you just don't think of the easy, logical thing to do. One time when Devin was in the hospital, he stepped on his central line and it pulled out near his arm. I noticed when blood started to back up on the floor. I went to the door and yelled for a nurse and dithered and was in a panic until they got there. Had I been thinking, I would have just put the clamp on the line to stop the blood flow and THEN called the nurse..it truly was not a major issue despite the blood. I just didn't think. Harry is probably the same way.



Catherine - Feb 6, 2005 2:06 pm (#813 of 2970)
That makes a lot of sense to me, Denise.

Back in SS, even Hermione panicked about starting a fire because she didn't have any matches! This is after she had been known to be good at conjuring flames.

Harry has missed the obvious in several situations. Crouch/Moody had to really urge him to think to realize how to make sure he would have his broom at the First Task.



Marie E. - Feb 6, 2005 2:58 pm (#814 of 2970)
I was just reading the same passages in GoF to my daughters and my oldest came up with an interesting observation. While Harry is trapped in the trick stair, Moody and Snape have a heated conversation which Moody ends by stating, "But me--I say there are spots that don't come off, Snape. Spots that never come off, d'you know what I mean?" Professor Snape then grabs at his forearm with his other hand. We all know that he's grabbing at his Dark Mark but my daughter Shayla doesn't know about this mark on the DE's yet. When I read this passage she said, "I bet Snape has a mark on his arm. Moody can see through Snape's clothes with his magical eye, huh Mommy?"

Do you think Moody can see the Dark Marks on the Death Eaters? It would make Death Eater hunting much easier wouldn't it?



Denise P. - Feb 6, 2005 3:00 pm (#815 of 2970)
It was not really Moody thought, it was Crouch Jr who KNEW the mark was there. I think it is possible for the real Moody to see them, if he knows what to look for. With his eye, I bet he has learned to filter out a whole lot of what he sees. Still, a very astute observation from that bright young lady!



Catherine - Feb 6, 2005 3:03 pm (#816 of 2970)
Ten points to Shayla!

We do know that Moody's eye can see through clothing. Crouch/Moody made a comment about Harry's socks at the Yule Ball in GoF; Parvati found this creepy.

I'm sure that Moody would be able to see the Dark Mark on someone's arm.



Wand Maker - Feb 6, 2005 4:09 pm (#817 of 2970)
Marie, I thought the same thing until the Hospital scene towards the end. When Snape shows the Dark Mark, i got the impression that it was in the process of fading. I would guess that it is normally invisible. It was only growing darker because Voldmort was gradually gaining strength to the point of his rebirth.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Feb 6, 2005 6:14 pm (#818 of 2970)
I think it is interesting that the dark mark grows clearer when Voldemort is close, in much the same fashion as Harry's scar burning when Voldemort is close.

Having said that, I forgot where I was going with this. Anyone who wants to help out feel free to do so. Myself, I'm having another beer, er, butterbeer.

Raises tankard in cheers to all as I toddle back off to St. Mungos.



Lady Kazuma - Feb 7, 2005 8:14 am (#819 of 2970)
Just to go back to the muggle-born thing for a moment. I was under the impression that muggle-borns were rare. I actually thought that was in an interview, but, naturally, I can't find it now. I know I've seen it somewhere...

Anyway, if there aren't very many muggle-borns, then naturally we wouldn't see many of them (especially if Voldemort is out killing them off). There also wouldn't be many of them in the Ministry. Another thing about the Ministry - Fudge is clearly concerned with blood, at least a little bit. If the rest of the Ministry is also that way (or even a good part of it), then it's possible that the Ministry simply doesn't hire many muggle-borns, and no one would be around to tell poor Arthur how their things work.

I do hope some of this is actually useful. Whether or not there are a lot of muggle-borns, I still think the Ministry is biased against them in general.



Madame Librarian - Feb 7, 2005 8:48 am (#820 of 2970)
Lady K, I don't think we're told that Muggle-borns are rare, just Squibs. I suppose Muggles-borns would be a smaller percentage of the total population, but not necessarily rare. I guess it depends how you figure those things--at which number does it stop being rare and start just being a minority.

But the main point I'm making is that Madame Author does not use the term "rare" in connection with them. At least that's what I remember. Here's what the Lex says (the underscore is mine):

Muggle-born
Wizarding person born of two Muggle parents.

Colin and Dennis Creevey

Lily Evans

Justin Finch-Fletchley

Hermione Granger

Ted Tonks

Many witches and wizards are Muggle-borns. A foul, nasty name for Muggle-born is Mudblood (lit. "dirty blood"), but that's not a term used in polite company.

Ciao. Barb



ex-FAHgeek - Feb 7, 2005 8:58 am (#821 of 2970)
Edited by Feb 7, 2005 9:00 am
---quote---

Colin and Dennis Creevey, Lily Evans, Justin Finch-Fletchley, Hermione Granger, Ted Tonks

---end quote---

Also, Penelope Clearwater...



MoonRider - Feb 8, 2005 4:13 pm (#822 of 2970)
I thought this was really odd------it may be a mistake, so if there's a "mistake thread", please put "me" in the right place.

Anyway.....

In GoF: "An eagle owl flew through the coil of smoke rising from Hagrid's chimney...."

I was thinking this was when Voldemort, when at Barty Crouch, Sr.'s house, had sent word to Barty Crouch, JR. that SR. had escaped-----and t'be on the lookout for him. The only problem is, Easter came and went, and summer started before SR. showed-up-----in the "Veritaserum" chapter JR. said he waited for his father a week.

Also, when he said he buried his father in the freshly dug earth in front of Hagrid's cabin, I figured it was where Harry had seen Hagrid diggin'-----later we find-out that he was burying fake Galleons for the niffler class. Again, if this was in fact the same "freshly dug earth"----Easter came and went, summer started-----how could it have been still "freshly dug"-----ya know what I mean?

Did anybody else catch the owl bit? If the owl was for something/somebody else, couldja let me know, please?



MoonRider - Feb 8, 2005 4:25 pm (#823 of 2970)
I forgot-----I have another one:

Ron said, when they were at St. Mungo's, that "they" weren't those Muggle nutters (doctors), but that they were "healers".....

well then, who/what is "Dr." Filibusters fireworks? Does not the "Dr." stand for "doctor"? If it does-----a Muggle doctor? Also, there's another "Dr." somethin'-'r-other-----I'm thinkin' some kind of Elixir, or somethin'.....

anyway----a wizard with a PHD??? LOL



Catherine - Feb 8, 2005 4:52 pm (#824 of 2970)
MoonRider,

Many of us have had the "problem" of finding new information that applies to our last post. Here, you have up to 30 minutes to "EDIT" your own post, and make the changes you like.

It saves you from double-posting in a short amount of time, and preserves continuity for those reading your post.



Robert Dierken - Feb 8, 2005 7:04 pm (#825 of 2970)
I believe that the eagle owl belongs to Draco.



ex-FAHgeek - Feb 8, 2005 7:46 pm (#826 of 2970)
Edited by Feb 8, 2005 7:47 pm
---quote--- Does not the "Dr." stand for "doctor"? If it does-----a Muggle doctor? Also, there's another "Dr." somethin'-'r-other-----I'm thinkin' some kind of Elixir, or somethin'..... ---end quote---

There are two definitions of doctor:

a) Someone who has a doctorate (in any field, be it medicine or seismology)

b) Health professional (typically with the aforementioned doctorate, at least in the First World.)

Dr. Filibuster more likely than not has no relation to the field of medicine... or perhaps (s)he's a witch doctor? Hee hee hee.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Feb 8, 2005 8:50 pm (#827 of 2970)
"In GoF: "An eagle owl flew through the coil of smoke rising from Hagrid's chimney...."

I was thinking this was when Voldemort, when at Barty Crouch, Sr.'s house, had sent word to Barty Crouch, JR. that SR. had escaped-----and t'be on the lookout for him." That was right after Harry sent a food package to Sirius, and he was watching what was going on outside. Why would you associate an eagle owl with that event? As you yourself say, the timelines don't match up.

Pigwidgeon was much too small to carry an entire ham up to the mountain by himself, so Harry enlisted the help of two school screech owls as well. When they had set off into the dusk, looking extremely odd carrying the large package between them. Harry leaned on the windowsill, looking out at the grounds," At the time. I see no association. If you could be specific and spell slowly to those of us who are a little slow on the uptake it would be appreciated.

"Also, when he said he buried his father in the freshly dug earth in front of Hagrid's cabin," Canon reference please? Methinks my memory may have a failing circuit.

Thank You. Pam

Edited for a keyboard that may have been spewed upon one too many times.



MoonRider - Feb 9, 2005 7:00 am (#828 of 2970)
Catherine - Thanks much! I knew that, though-----I've been editing, like crazy-----especially when my HTML doesn't show-up, properly.....

I wanted them t'be two separate posts.

ex-FAHgeek - I know----that's why I asked "wizard with a PhD?" I don't know if there is such a thing.

Robert - I first thought that too-----since, I think, Draco has been the only one, seemingly, with an eagle owl----but then I associated it with the "Veritaserum" chapter.

TBE - the "freshly dug earth" bit can be found on pp. 690-691/GoF (American hard-back edition).

I don't know what, really, made me associate the two----maybe because of the "freshly dug earth" bit-----I remembered, when I read the "Veritaserum" chaper that I had read about Hagrid diggin' in the dirt. Also, I think it was somewhere on here that somebody posted about the passage where DD was sent the owl t'report to the MoM of magic (SS)----the time where he was tricked into goin' there t'get him away from Hogwarts. So, now, I guess whenever I see a "rogue" owl I associate it with a letter that we hear about later.

I guess, too, what I was asking was-----I know the timeline doesn't match-up-----but, then, is that a mistake, and that owl was, in fact, the one that brought word to JR.------or, if not, what was the significance of that owl? I know Harry was just gazin' out the window, but it seems like, for the most part, that JKR doesn't mention things like that for no reason-----just like when she mentioned the owl when DD got led away, t'get rid of him.

I dunno if I explained that any better----lemme know.....



Czarina II - Feb 9, 2005 8:30 am (#829 of 2970)
Just going back to the blood thing again, I think something about being a pureblood, halfblood, or muggleborn is that it's not a visible thing. It's not like skin colour or anything similar. Therefore, it is hard to persecute them directly. Blood fanatics like the Malfoys use familial lines: there are no pureblood Grangers, ergo, Hermione Granger is a muggleborn. While the general population may not care so much about bloodlines, muggleborn individuals would be nervous anyhow. They are the first to be persecuted (second, I suppose, if "halfbreeds" like Hagrid are any indication) during a crisis. One also can't necessarily tell a blood fanatic from a tolerant wizard. I think that would lead muggleborns and even halfbloods to lie low in the general population. Ministry officials might not want to disclose their heritage all that often, for example. Besides, if one has lived in the magical world since age 11, one might have forgotten quite a bit about muggle life if one is 80 or so.



Catherine - Feb 9, 2005 8:46 am (#830 of 2970)
. Besides, if one has lived in the magical world since age 11, one might have forgotten quite a bit about muggle life if one is 80 or so. --Czarina II

That is a good point. Look how much has changed in the Muggle world since 1905-2005, for example.



Choices - Feb 9, 2005 6:20 pm (#831 of 2970)
I think the eagle owl was coming to tell Barty, Jr. that his father had gotten away and to be on the lookout for him. Fake Moody showed up awfully fast when Dumbledore and Harry were with Krum - he was definitely expecting some sort of trouble. He said later that he had waited a week for his father to show up at Hogwarts. He kills his father and hides his body, then later transfigures it into a bone and buries it by Hagrid's cabin in the freshly dug dirt.



MoonRider - Feb 11, 2005 3:19 pm (#832 of 2970)
Choices: that's what I thought too! I guess the timeline is an error, then?

Another thing I found odd is that every once-in-a-while, JKR calls someone a "man" (I can't find this anywhere in regard to the word "woman".) when she is referring to someone in the WW. For instance, when Harry goes to the MoM, he sees a man sitting in his cubicle with his boots up on the desk------he's wearing scarlet robes and dictating into the end of his quill. Is she, JKR, calling him a "man" for a reason we need to pay attention to?

Like, if a warlock is something different from a wizard?

(P.S. I've been watching Nearly Headless Nick on Will & Grace ["Finster"]------I love him!)



Choices - Feb 11, 2005 5:45 pm (#833 of 2970)
Since witches and wizards are humans, I think the correct term for them is man or woman - interchangable with wizard or witch. Harry is a wizard and he is also a young man.



Denise P. - Feb 11, 2005 5:51 pm (#834 of 2970)
I think she uses man or woman interchanged with witch, just to break it up. If he is working at the MoM, it would be a given he is a witch, why not call him a man?



Menopause Molly - Feb 12, 2005 7:23 am (#835 of 2970)
On the man versus wizard discussion, in OOtP, "The Lost Prohecy", Dumbledore tells Harry, "...suffering like this proves you are still a man! This pain is part of being human--" and then as DD begins his explanation to Harry, he says, "An explanation of an old man's mistakes." I don't think there is anything to be read into using "man" as opposed to "wizard".

mm



djellibabe - Feb 12, 2005 10:55 am (#836 of 2970)
Hi, Don't know if this has been discussed before but didn't really know where else to post it, so I would like some help. Will post this in the movie thread also!

I was re-watching POA today and when the trio arrive at Hogwarts and are sat at the table in the great hall, Malfoy calls to Harry and pretends to faint like Harry did on the train. Harry remarks about how Malfoy could know, Hermione and Ron tell Harry to ignore him. But how could he know? I can't imagine that Lupin would have told, so who did? Is there something about the other two we don't know? Is this a prediction maybe pointing to a traitor or am I just paranoid?



Steve Newton - Feb 12, 2005 11:02 am (#837 of 2970)
In the book Draco says that he heard Neville talking about Harry fainting.



Catherine - Feb 12, 2005 11:08 am (#838 of 2970)
Questions about the movie should be posted in the PoA movie thread.



Her-melanie - Feb 13, 2005 1:06 pm (#839 of 2970)
I did a search for this and couldn't find one; sorry if this is common knowledge (though I CERTAINLY didn't know this). In the terrible horror movie "Troll," the main character's name is Harry Potter Jr, and the dad is Harry Potter, Sr. WEIRD! Perhaps there are some embedded clues to the future of the series in that movie! I never pictured Jo as a fan of terrible 80s horror movies, though.



Mellilot Flower. - Feb 22, 2005 1:16 pm (#840 of 2970)
May you fill my mouth with stinksap if this has already been mentioned, and may I suffer a worse bat bogey hex than even Ginny can muster if I'm being silly but...

It struck me as rather odd that when Harry broke into Snapes mind by using the "protego" charm he saw snapes memories as though in third person. Now, I know that whenever we witness other peoples memories, such as in the pensieve or the diary, Harry becomes a witness... like he's on a stage and the actors are playing out their scene around him. But whenever Harry's mind has linked up with the Dark Lord's, Harry saw everything from the Dark Lord's point of view... (though I'm not sure here how to classify the dream of Frank Bryce's death... because I don't think the same thing could have been happening here as it did once the Dark Lord got his body back). It seems to me that the disrupted Leglimens spell would create a similar linking of the mind, as it is access directly to the mind with no intermediate object. When Harry describes the images of his own memories it is first person... as though he is experiencing it through the eyes he first experienced the memories. Would Snape see them differently? Or is there something highly significant in the fact that Snape's memories seem to appear to Harry in the third person?

If I'm right then I don't think that the memories JKR chose to show us were randomly given. They give us clear insight into his childhood- namely that he had siblings, and quite likely shared a room. The one paragraph that suggests I might be wrong would be

"Harry did not speak; he felt that to say anything might be dangerous. He was sure he had just broken into Snape's memories, that he had just seen scenes from Snape's childhood. It was unnerving to think that the little boy who had been crying as he watched his parents shouting was actually standing in front of him with such loathing in his eyes."

But it is only Harry's assumption that the boy he saw crying was Snape, because he assumed that he had broken into Snape's memories and the only entrance into other peoples memories he's previously encountered have been third person...

Not so sure of myself now, but I'll post anyway to see what you think



Amilia Smith - Feb 22, 2005 7:51 pm (#841 of 2970)
Very interesting catch! I don't really have anything to add, but I wanted to let you know, Melliot, how much I like that idea.

Mills.



zelmia - Feb 26, 2005 10:16 am (#842 of 2970)
Yes, indeed! I confess that when I originally read that scene in the book, I wasn't certain if Harry had seen the events from Snape's point of view or his own third-person perspective. And it isn't made all that clear in subsequent paragraphs, as Melliot points out.

I guess I kind of assumed it was from Snape's point of view. After all, if one is "breaking in" to someone else's mind/memories, it wouldn't make sense for that those memories would be observed from a third-person viewpoint. They would be observed as the person him/herself originally expereinced them - wouldn't they?
Hm. This might be a good question for the next Poll on the JKR Web site.

Another thing that, I guess you could say, struck me as odd is that in the scene where Umbridge questions Harry about Dumbledore's whereabouts Harry answers (truthfully) "I don't know." But when she asks him about Sirius, he also pleads ignorance.
Umbridge confesses that it was she who nearly caught them in the Gryffindor Common Room fireplace - and that hers is the only Floo not being monitored. When she asks him again, "Where is Sirius Black?" it strikes me that Harry should have said, "I don't know. We've lost touch since then." Or something like that.
I was just thinking that he could maybe get her off his back if he was a little more honest; because she believes he's drunk the Veritaserum.



Choices - Feb 26, 2005 6:49 pm (#843 of 2970)
OK, I have something that struck me as odd: In book one - why did Scabbers (really Peter Pettigrew) bite Goyle, a fellow Death Eater's son? What was the point of that - except to perhaps make us think that Scabbers was a good rat, even if he was lazy and slept all the time?



The giant squid - Feb 26, 2005 6:59 pm (#844 of 2970)
Well, Choices, Goyle's really not all that likeable. And there's nothing to say that all the DEs (and their sons) get along anyway...they're working toward a common goal, but not really the types to get together for Sunday brunch.

In other words, Scabbers bit Goyle because he thought Goyle deserved to be bitten. I know I thought so at the time...

--Mike



Steve Newton - Feb 27, 2005 11:36 am (#845 of 2970)
Goyle has been slightly separated from Draco and Crabbe several times. When the Inquisitorial Squad captures the group in Umbridge's office, Goyle is not there. Goyle's father is not at the Department of Mysteries. Something is up with the Goyle's. Is Gregory going to switch sides? Is he on a special mission? Did he forget about the Inquisitorial Squad meeting? Didn't Harry transform into Goyle in COS? (I'll have to check that.)



Choices - Feb 27, 2005 12:28 pm (#846 of 2970)
OK, here's something else that struck me as odd: When Harry is going to travel by Floo-Powder for the first time, he takes the powder, steps into the fireplace, throws the powder down and mispronounces the name Diagon Alley. He says something like "Diagonilly" - so why is he transported to Knockturn Alley? Why not to some place that sounds more like Diagonilly?



ex-FAHgeek - Feb 27, 2005 12:41 pm (#847 of 2970)
---quote--- He says something like "Diagonilly" - so why is he transported to Knockturn Alley? Why not to some place that sounds more like Diagonilly? ---end quote---

I think it's more of a case that he was close to "Diagon Alley," so the Floo Powder sent him close to Diagon Alley, just not actually to the target destination. If Diagon Alley was the bull's eye, Knockturn Alley might be considered the first ring around it. Mrs. Weasley makes the comment that they'd hoped he'd only gone one grate too far, so she obviously thought that he'd be somewhere nearby but off the target, preferably closer rather than farther away.



Albus Silente - Feb 27, 2005 4:03 pm (#848 of 2970)
He says something like "Diagonilly" - so why is he transported to Knockturn Alley? Why not to some place that sounds more like Diagonilly?

Another explanation I could think of is that any "nearby" name of Diagon Alley leads to Knockturn Alley, because someone would be easily suspected of strange or dark business if he was heard saying "Knockturn Alley". If instead he said Diagonilly or D-Diagon Alley, it might be not noticed at all. That surely if the person uses a public fireplace or at least when other people are around.



Winky - Feb 27, 2005 6:11 pm (#849 of 2970)
I think another possibility is Doby. I think this might have something to do with him not wanting Harry to go back to school. Doby could also be giving Harry another hint as to who is behind the plots at school. I wouldn't rule Doby out because his ways of keeping Harry safe never really worked out that well. If Harry couldn't get to Diagon Alley, he had no way to buy his books and return to school.



haymoni - Feb 27, 2005 6:44 pm (#850 of 2970)
Choices - I think Scabbers biting Goyle is more on target than it seems.

At the time, Voldy was nowhere to be found - just a rumour in Albania. So why not defend Ron and his new friend, Harry Potter?

(I've always wondered if the butter-mellow spell didn't work because Scabbers wasn't really a rat. Or it could just be the Twins at it again!)

Peter already knew what Sirius said later - some DEs felt that Peter had led Voldy to his downfall and he couldn't be sure of a welcome back into the fold. Peter would bide his time and wait until Voldy was the biggest bully on the block.

I think Peter was protecting Ron.

However, if he bit Goyle because he knew whose son he was, that works too!

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Miriam Huber - Feb 28, 2005 11:25 am (#851 of 2970)
Choices, I just read your question and I am with you, I asked the same thing some time ago! And I must confess, I still don´t know ... (I know, it is so much easier to ask question than give answers, so whoever did give answers, please don´t be annoyed!) What strikes me most is that it was only ONCE. Goyle and Scabbers would meet at least twice a year -- at the Hogwarts Express to and from the school --, if not sometimes in school, too. So why did Scabbers aka. Pettigrew bite Goyle just this one time and never again defended Ron against anyone, be it Goyle or someone else?

... One of the two thousand questions I hope to get answered in the last two books -- how long will book 7 be, given that there are so many open questions left until now and that book 6 will obviously be much too small to satisfy us :-) ?



The giant squid - Mar 1, 2005 12:28 am (#852 of 2970)
Miriam, that is a good point. I can offer the suggestion that any other meetings of Scab & Goyle happened "off-screen", or that Scabbers decided that he didn't like the taste and didn't think it was worth trying it again, but I've got nothing to back it up with. I just like the idea that there are some things that even an evil, Voldemort-worshipping rat won't eat.

--Mike



Mellilot Flower. - Mar 1, 2005 12:47 am (#853 of 2970)
When I read the bit about scabbers biting Goyle, even before I knew who he was, I'd always just out it down to a natural reaction on the part of the creature. A persons big fat hands come reaching out down to where you were peacefully sitting sleeping, what's more a person you don't know. Instant ratty reaction - bite. A surprised animagus in the form of a rat would probably do something similar (and yes, then he'd probably learn that Goyle's fingers don't taste too nice).



Her-melanie - Mar 1, 2005 10:20 am (#854 of 2970)
As far as the "Diagon Alley" question is concerned, what he says accidentally is "diagonally," at least in the movie. In the book he gets ashes in his mouth and coughs and sputters. If the floo can't understand what you said, maybe it just spits you out somewhere that sounds close to what you said.



LooneyLuna - Mar 2, 2005 11:30 am (#855 of 2970)
I always thought that Harry just got off the Floo Network too early - I thought Ron had warned him about it. He flung his arms out too soon and that's why he ended up in Knockturn Alley - one grate before Diagon Alley.



Choices - Mar 5, 2005 10:34 am (#856 of 2970)
This has probably been discussed to death, but I can't recall seeing a thread about it. Grandparents - We know that wizards live longer lives than muggles do, but it seems odd that we know of only one living grandparent (Mrs. Longbottom) in all the HP books. Harry has none living, nor does Ron. Maybe other kids have them and they are just not mentioned, but it does seem odd. We do know why Tom Riddle has no grandparents - he killed them - at least his paternal grandparents. We know of plenty of older wizards and witches, but we just aren't told if they are grandparents or not. Guess it's just not that important to the story.



Norbert not a common welsh green - Mar 10, 2005 1:21 pm (#857 of 2970)
I'd say its just not importatnt enough to get mentioned. Its not the type of thing teanagers discuss much and we dont know many old caracters well enugh to know about children (Therefore grandchildren) by the way do we know from cannon that Ron has no grandparents around



Puck - Mar 18, 2005 7:39 pm (#858 of 2970)
I always thought that Harry's misprounciation resulted in his been moved along a diagnol as opposed to a straight line along the network. If you put the words "Diagon Alley" that's what it sounds like you're saying. It's been a while since I had geomorty, however, and I could be mistaken.



Choices - Mar 19, 2005 11:50 am (#859 of 2970)
Well, Diagon Alley is diagonally opposed to Knockturn Alley. They are as different as day and night. You may have something there Puck, that I hadn't considered. Harry said what sounded like "diagonally" and so he ended up in a place that is the opposite of Diagon Alley - which is of course, Knockturn Alley. Good thinking!



quibbler - Mar 21, 2005 10:31 am (#860 of 2970)
On annother topic: I know these are maby just minor details but nevertheless the struck me as od when I was re-reading PS today. On Harry's book list it is clearly stated that students are allowed to bring a cat or an owl or a toad. Why Ron is allowed to keep Scabbers a.k.a Pettigrew? The second thing: In CoS Nearly Headless Nick holds a letter saying that he is not allowed to join the headless hunt. How can he acctually hold a letter when he is a ghost?



Aurora Gubbins - Mar 21, 2005 10:37 am (#861 of 2970)
Quibbler; Isn't parchment made from the skin of a goat? Surely they would have to use the skin of a dead goat otherwise that would be really sore for the poor creature. In that case, the skin of a dead goat could be used to write letters to dead people ;-)

Aurora xx



Zoe kingson - Mar 21, 2005 11:47 am (#862 of 2970)
One thing that struck me as odd, (and I apologize if it has been mentioned; I don't feel like looking through 800+ posts to find it) is while rereading book 4. While they're in the graveyard and Voldemort is talking to the Death Eaters explaining why he used Harry, he says "I wanted the blood of the one who had stripped me of power thirteen years ago...for the lingering protection his mother once gave him would then reside in my veins too." (Scholastic version, pg. 657)
What does this mean? That since Harry was unable to be killed, will Voldemort be as well? Will Harry's power against him be less if his mothers blood is mixed with Voldemorts blood?
Curious.



The giant squid - Mar 21, 2005 1:46 pm (#863 of 2970)
Zoe: I think the concensus here was that Voldemort was hoping to get around the protection by absorbing some of it himself. If you look furhter on in the book when Harry tells Dumbledore about this there's a "triumphant glint in his eye", meaning Voldemort's plan may not have worked in his favor. There's a thread under the "theories" section about that very glint, and it may have more info for you.

--Mike



Madame Librarian - Mar 21, 2005 2:34 pm (#864 of 2970)
This quote was posted on the "Harry's Shortest Stay Ever" thread while we discussed the duration of Harry's stay. It's from OoP, ch. 37, pg. 836 (US). DD is explaining to Harry why he must go back to 4 PD every summer--

"While you can still call home the place where your mother's blood dwells, there you cannot be touched or harmed by Voldemort[...]You need only return there once a year, but as long as you can still call it home, there he cannot hurt you...." (Emphasis mine.)

I find this phrasing decidedly odd. It's got that slightly Yoda-ish word order construction, but that's not the real thing I'm looking at here (for a future discussion, perhaps). It's that word I boldfaced...there. If I understand what DD means, then the whole concept of the protection things gets weird to me.

What I mean is this: Harry goes home for _____ number of weeks every summer and "renews" the mother's blood-love protection charm. But if it's only protective while Harry is there, as DD seems to be saying, what's the point once Harry begins school? Sure, as a younger kid, he comes home every day to the house at Privet Drive, so his anonymity and safety are charged up in a manner of speaking. But once he's at Hogwarts, the protection renewal is just for a certain period of time. When he leaves is there lasting protection from the mother-blood thing? Well--based on other comments by DD and events earlier in the books (see Zoe's and Mike's posts above), there does seem to be the mother-love charm kicking in at times and protecting our Harry. But then there's this really key bit of dialogue. Taken word for word, Harry is only protected there. When he leaves the house, do the other things DD has done have to take over? Are we supposed to take it literally?

I can't say it any more clearly, but the calling-it-home charm does seem limiting the way DD states it in OoP, doesn't it? If we are meant to take it as it's written here, I'd ask what then is the point of going home for just a short bit of protected time when being there makes Harry so miserable. Almost doesn't seem worth it, does it?

JKR doesn't write stuff haphazardly. I think she chose every word in this bit of dialogue very carefully, so why that word "there"? And, not once, but twice! Very odd to me.

Ciao. Barb



Dumbledore - Mar 21, 2005 2:40 pm (#865 of 2970)
Barb, although we don't know how long the blood protection lasts during the summer vacation where Harry isn't at Privet Drive or school, or how long he needs to remind there for it to "work", but I think it doesn't need to apply at Hogwarts because Voldemort knows it would be extremely hard to harm Harry where he is under Dumbledore's watch - and I'm sure Dumbledore watches Harry a lot more than we know. Also, at Hogwarts he has the protection of the other teachers, not to mention the protection of the school itself (as has been argued on other threads).



haymoni - Mar 21, 2005 3:43 pm (#866 of 2970)
I was watching COS and I wondered how Nearly-Healess Nick took the Mandrake Potion.

He couldn't eat real food at his Deathday Party.

How was he ghostified again?



Catherine - Mar 21, 2005 4:04 pm (#867 of 2970)
Haymoni, I wondered this too.

I confess that I imagined Madame Pomfrey taking a flask of the potion and dribling on Nick's ghostly form. Or maybe used a muggle aerosol can to spray him!

Perhaps Nick's "ability" to be petrified is a significant detail from CoS, even if he couldn't die twice.



Hollywand - Mar 21, 2005 4:28 pm (#868 of 2970)
Just hold the petrified ghost over a steaming or vaporizing bowl of Mandrake solution, and they will be restored in no time....;-) They reabsorb in through their ectoplasm.



Choices - Mar 21, 2005 6:01 pm (#869 of 2970)
About Harry's protection while he is at 4 Privet Drive - I think the protection remains active for a short time so that he is "covered" when he goes to The Burrow for a couple of weeks. But when he is at Hogwarts, I think it is like Hermione told Harry in book 2 - "As long as Dumbledores around Harry, you're safe. As long as Dumbledores around, you can't be touched." This was after they saw Quirrell in the forest drinking the unicorn's blood. At Hogwarts, Harry is protected by the presence of Dumbledore.



Puck - Mar 21, 2005 7:19 pm (#870 of 2970)
Barb, I took that phrase quite literally. I don't think it was strictly out of punishment that Harry was not allowed out of the house after the dementor attck in OotP. I feel his aunt did it to protect him -as well as the rest of them. As long as Privet drive is "home" Harry will always have a safe place to go when things get bad. It will likely become a shelter where he can rest and plan strategy.

I have another question; why is wormtail able to AK Cedric? I can't imagine he enjoys killing, or desperate wants him dead. The slimeball was just fearful of his master and wants to save his own hide. I thought that wasn't enough to power an unforgivable curse.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Mar 22, 2005 12:48 am (#871 of 2970)
"ghostified" Is that a word? LOL! Another thing about the protection thingy...Madame Librarian, thank you for that there hint. It is stressed a lot. If the house at #4 were destroyed, what would happen to that protection? Or that particular protection? But as we go on we find out that where the blood resides is where his protected. Last time I took a reality check the blood resides in Harry... and now in Voldie, maybe that gives just the edge Harry needs to defeat Voldie.

Puck, the rat is slimey, self-serving, and a greaseball, but never under-estimate him. There has to be something there for the Mauraders to allow him to hang out, aside from hero worship. To fake your own death takes talent, to live as a pet rat I don't even want to know the qualities that would allow that. He made some really bad choices, but also made some good ones. Even rat finks have some good qualities...as soon as I think of one I'll post it...



Snuffles - Mar 23, 2005 5:48 am (#872 of 2970)
There is one thing from GOF that im wondering if anyone else has noticed. On page 469 where Harry is about to send a parcel to Sirius he is looking out of the owlery window, watching Hagrid digging soil. He looks up and sees and eagle owl fly through the coil of smoke rising from Hagrid's chimney; it soared towards the castle, around the Owlery and out of sight. Then on page 500 Harry is starting to have his dreams and he is riding the back of an Eagle Owl which goes to the Riddle house. When he leaves the owls back it flies accross the room onto the chair where LV is sat.

The only person I remember reading about that owns an Eagle Owl is the Malfoys. What does everyone think?



Choices - Mar 23, 2005 8:44 am (#873 of 2970)
The eagle owl - if I remember correctly - is bringing the message to Barty, Jr. (Mad Eye) to tell him his father has gotten away and to be on the lookout for him. Yes, the Malfoy's own an eagle owl, but they are probably not the only ones who do.



Puck - Mar 23, 2005 12:41 pm (#874 of 2970)
I have a question about the Weasley twins. If they aren't allowed to use Magic outside of school, how are they coming up with all these inventions, and bewitching Percy's Prefect and Headboy badges? They are up to more underage Magic than any of them, but no trouble seems to come of it.



Mellilot Flower. - Mar 23, 2005 12:53 pm (#875 of 2970)
I think that the fact that we see the twins being able to get away with so much minor magic (like bewitching Percy's badge) shows how stringent the watch was around Harry, not only did Dumbledore take extra care with what magic was around the boy, but so did the ministry. It perhaps also shows something of the kind of watch that the ministry keeps, there are no other wizards in little whingington to do magic but Harry, so whenever any magic appears to have been done in that area they immeadiately assume that it is him. The twins however live in a highly magical environment and so thier minor bewitchments would go unnoticed.

Besides, it wouldn't surprise me if the twins hadn't perfected their own brand of sneak magic to conceal what they were doing at Hogwarts from teachers and from the ever watchfull Molly.

I've often thought myself about the potions and loud bangs... I don't think that this is picked up by the ministry either, partly because they live in such a magical house and partly because the magic is not created by living beings, but is taking advantage of the magical properties of certain objects.

We've seen from Arthur's tinkering that the Weasley's don't mind bending certain rules...



Mellilot Flower. - Mar 23, 2005 4:39 pm (#876 of 2970)
Um, has anyone noticed that Crabbe and Goyle's first names aren't mentioned until the PoA? My sister just phoned and told me she noticed it while re-reading, and I don't have time to check - I thought the best way would be to find out if people wondered back when they first came out...?

Sorry for posting immeadiately after a post of mine, the edit time was up by the time I got the call...



zelmia - Mar 23, 2005 8:15 pm (#877 of 2970)
Nope. Hadn't noticed. But I don't think it matters much. For that kind of environment (military, boarding school, camp, etc) calling someone by his/her first name rather than surname denotes a level of intimacy. In other words, Crabbe and Goyle are not Harry's friends, therefore, they are never referred to by their first names. To Harry, they are "Crabbe and Goyle" not "Vince and Greg".

Now you may say, "But Malfoy doesn't call them by their first names either." True, but do they have what one would consider a real friendship? My answer is that their relationship is more of "boss and goons" as opposed to "friends".



Dr Filibuster - Mar 23, 2005 11:33 pm (#878 of 2970)
Schoolboys (not just in boarding school) often call each other by their surnames in the UK. They either use knicknames, or surnames.



Miriam Huber - Mar 31, 2005 9:48 am (#879 of 2970)
Just a detail, but:

When Harry does his DADA exam and finishes with his Patronus, he looks at Umbridge. He notices that she is wearing a rather nasty smile but he does not care.

But I care ... Why is she smiling? You´d think she would be furious that Harry was that good at DADA. Was she planning anything ugly that she never had the time to do because of the following events with her ending in the forest? (For example, telling the Daily Prophet that Potter knew many not age-appropriate spells connected with the Dark Arts?) But why would JKR bother, then, to write that sentence, if nothing was going to really happen?

Is there a hint why she was smiling and I missed it? Or might even something be coming in the next book like a "last reminder" of Umbridge that will explain why JKR wrote that sentence about Umbridge´s smile? any ideas?



Steve Newton - Mar 31, 2005 9:52 am (#880 of 2970)
A couple of ideas. It could be a forced smile. What else can she, publicly, do when one of her students does well? Or, thinking longterm, she could use the good results to show how good a teacher she is and how well the new theory based instruction methods are doing.



Elanor - Mar 31, 2005 10:41 am (#881 of 2970)
Interesting ideas! I always thought that smile was saying something like "Come on, brag, when you still can do it... I'll get you anyway". For me it was the smile of someone who still has an ace hidden in his sleeve and waits for the moment he will put his cards on the table. I think she was waiting for the moment she would catch Harry trying to communicate with "an ennemy" (DD, Sirius..).



Dr Filibuster - Mar 31, 2005 10:47 am (#882 of 2970)
Miriam, I broke out into a cold sweat the first time I read that passage too. In fact, it's one of the main reasons why I think we've not seen the last of old toad-face.

Steve, what a brilliantly twisted Umbridgey way your mind works.



Steve Newton - Mar 31, 2005 11:27 am (#883 of 2970)
Thanks?



zelmia - Mar 31, 2005 7:50 pm (#884 of 2970)
I agree that she was smiling to save face. Remember how obsequious she was with Prof. Marchbanks, who clearly wanted nothing to do with Umbridge. Besides, I thought Harry had made it clear at one point that Prof. Lupin had taught him the Charm. Certainly this could be easily corroborated. I think the fact that she was still around and - basically - unharmed at the end of OP means that there is space available for her to return to the Saga.



Miriam Huber - Apr 1, 2005 12:01 am (#885 of 2970)
Great suggestions, thanks very much! Of course, Steve, you are so right! McGonagall SAID that the exam results would reflect on the regime of the headmistress, and so will of course even more the results of "her" DADA-class!

And I agree with Elanor and Dr Filibuster, too. I have the funny feeling that she HAD planned something very ugly for Harry. If that bomb is to explode a little lately in HBP? Although, as a character, I am not sure if she is not something like Lockhart -- a "one joke" thing, not really differenciated, so I do not think she will play a major role.



Dumbledore - Apr 1, 2005 6:41 pm (#886 of 2970)
I agree with Elanor and Dr. Filibuster, but I always thought it was more of a fake smile, so to say. I don't think she was smiling because she was genuinely happy or because she knew she was planning something later, but more of a derisive smile because she knew she had been "one-upped" by the boy that she claimed to McGonagall had no talents in the field of dark arts, and had spent the school year spreading lies that he was an attention-seeking heroic-craving prat.



Melly - Apr 4, 2005 8:39 pm (#887 of 2970)
Something that I find a bit odd in CoS is that when Harry and Riddle are in the Chamber, Riddle talks about all their 'strange likenesses' and he says that he and Harry even look something alike. I don't know about anyone else but I find that a bit curious. Is it something to do with the failed curse? LV passed some of his powers onto Harry, maybe some of his genes were as well - I don't know, I could be going a bit far with that. Also isn't Harry supposed to be almost a mirror image of his dad, except for his eyes? The thing that bugs me is that JKR doesn't put things in for no reason, well most of the time **COUGH, MARK EVANS, COUGH**!

I had this on another thread but I think it's ore appropriate here. What does everyone think?



Choices - Apr 5, 2005 8:41 am (#888 of 2970)
I have always thought that remark about looking alike means we are going to find out that Harry and Tom Riddle are related somehow.



Miriam Huber - Apr 5, 2005 10:27 am (#889 of 2970)
I too think this remark foreshadows something. But I am not so much thinking along the lines of blood-relationship than that in the past Harry and Tom have "met" perhaps in some indirect way: the scar has left a memory of Tom Riddle in Harry, or it has to do with the much-discussed connections to Godric resp. Salazar...

Something that might come to light when you look at your thoughts in a pensive? (Like the dementors revealed a memory in Harry he did not have access to beforehand).

But, of course, my guess is as good as yours, Choices.



Choices - Apr 5, 2005 4:09 pm (#890 of 2970)
But Tom didn't say Harry looked familiar, he said they looked alike - physically alike. This indicates more of a possibility of blood relationship than they just remember each other from the past. But, you're right - your guess is as good as mine. :-)



zelmia - Apr 5, 2005 7:58 pm (#891 of 2970)
Riddle says, "We even look something alike." (emphasis mine) not "Oh, it's like looking into a mirror!"



Melly - Apr 5, 2005 8:11 pm (#892 of 2970)
Zelmia, yes good point and I agree but it is still curious curious curious and it bugs me!!! Smile How often do people say that to eachother? "Oh hello nice to meet you. Wow we look a bit like eachother don't we? That's a funny coincidence." IT'S FISHY BUSINESS TO ME.



Miriam Huber - Apr 5, 2005 11:12 pm (#893 of 2970)
Oh, good point, Choices, I had not thought about that, only about Harrry feeling Tom was someone like a long forgotten childhood-friend (don´t know the exact quote).

Just another shot in the dark: It is TOM who says that. What if he wants something by pointing out to Harry that they have similarities? Could be:

1) trying to get out of Harry why they are so similar and yet so different (Slytherin/Gryffindor, character...) That would be in line with him wanting to know why Harry survived. Tom wants to understand the nature of the connection between Harry and himself/Voldemort.

2) He wants Harry to change to his side, like: "It is your destiny, we are linked, you belong to my side!" And, in a way, the argument works for a moment, because Harry is worried that he could belong in Slytherin.

Does Harry agree that he looks like Tom or is it only Tom suggesting? (Oh, I think I have to look the whole scene up, but my HP-books all are in the cellar - anti-procrastination-measures, I have to WORK!)



Her-melanie - Apr 6, 2005 4:32 am (#894 of 2970)
Well, they definitely look enough like one another that a brief description could indicate one or the other. I am referring to the beginning of GoF when the story of Riddle's parents' murder is told. Frank Bryce describes seeing a skinny kid with black hair on the property, and I was always struck by the ambiguity of that, and the possibility that it could apply to either Tom Riddle or Harry.



Melly - Apr 6, 2005 5:00 am (#895 of 2970)
Her-melanie I had forgotten about Frank Bryce's description of Tom Riddle. Hold on, I'll get the exact quote for you.


Toddles off sleepily to find it*

"... and that the only person he had seen near the house on the day of the Riddle's death had been a teenage boy, a stranger, dark-haired and pale." Chapter 1, page 9, GoF, UK paperback (Well actually Australian but isn't that the same as UK???)

Also from CoS:

"A boy of about sixteen entered, taking off his pointed hat. A silver Prefect's badge was glinting on his chest. He was much taller than Harry, but he, too, had jet-black hair." Chapter 13, page 181, UK/AUS paperback.



zelmia - Apr 6, 2005 6:56 am (#896 of 2970)
Is black hair really that unusual? Hm. I have black hair and green eyes. Well, it's more brown now, but it was black when I was that age. Maybe I'm Harry Potter. Or Tom Riddle.



Steve Newton - Apr 6, 2005 7:23 am (#897 of 2970)
That must mean that you are really Harriet Potter.



Aurora Gubbins - Apr 6, 2005 1:16 pm (#898 of 2970)
Errol's quote about "...a teenage boy, a stranger, dark-haired and pale" made me shudder a little. When Harry and Hermione used the Time-Turner, Harry thought he saw his father across the lake when in fact he was seeing himself. Perhaps (long shot coming your way) DD takes Harry back to the Riddle house and Harry is seen sneaking around.

I always thought DD's watch with 12 hands was something to do with the Time-Turner anyway...

Aurora xx



Melly - Apr 6, 2005 6:23 pm (#899 of 2970)
Oooooohh Aurora very interesting theory. I'm not sure of the possibility of that happening but makes you really wonder doesn't it?! That's also interesting theory about DD watch.



Norbert not a common welsh green - Apr 7, 2005 12:04 pm (#900 of 2970)
Maybe the fact that Harry and Tom look alike or that Harry tought he knew him is the clue from CoS that relates to HbP.

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Aurora Gubbins - Apr 8, 2005 2:33 pm (#901 of 2970)
I just can't see Tom Riddle sneaking round the back door when all he had to do was pick up his pet snake and apparate back to his father's house. It just seems odd to me.

Then again, I could be so far off the mark - I often am!

Aurora xx



Maollelujah - Apr 12, 2005 11:46 pm (#902 of 2970)
Here are two things that struck me as odd.

The first is about Ron (or any wizard kid for that matter). Do they have any friends from before they went to Hogwarts? Did have play dates or whatever, or were the only kids he knew where the ones in his family. It just seems odd that Ron doesn't have any pre-Hogwarts friends.

My second one is about Wizard/Muggle matches, like Seamus's parents. Where does a young muggle girl go to meet a Wizard? Is there a club in London that is favored among young wizards? It just seems the way Wizards don't have very much contact with muggles, it would be extremely difficult for eligible young wizards to meet eligible young muggles.

The other thing I wonder about, is where do wizards do their grocery shopping?



The giant squid - Apr 13, 2005 1:37 am (#903 of 2970)
The other thing I wonder about, is where do wizards do their grocery shopping?--Maollelujah

"Accio produce!"?



LooneyLuna - Apr 15, 2005 2:45 pm (#904 of 2970)
About the black hair thing, Tom R., Sirius, Snape, Bellatrix, James, and Harry have black hair. Sirius, Bellatrix, and James are purebloods. Tom R & Harry are half bloods. I assume that Snape is a pureblood, but don't have any cannon to go on there. Ron made a comment that all pureblood families are related in some way. It is within the realm of possibility that Tom R. and Harry are related very distantly. Although, Dumbledore said that Tom R. had no living relatives.

Where do wizards do their grocery shopping? Good question. I assumed they shopped at Hogsmead or Diagon Ally, but am probably wrong. Smile



Choices - Apr 15, 2005 5:48 pm (#905 of 2970)
LooneyLuna"Although, Dumbledore said that Tom R. had no living relatives."

We also know Harry has no living relatives except Petunia and Dudley.



LooneyLuna - Apr 15, 2005 6:56 pm (#906 of 2970)
Which, is another similarity. Smile

Too bad we couldn't see the rest of Sirius' family tree.



Czarina II - Apr 16, 2005 5:49 am (#907 of 2970)
It's one thing to say that Person X has no living relatives. "Relatives" implies a familial relationship, or at least a traceable line. Your sixteenth cousins are genetically related to you, but would you really consider them your relatives? Furthermore, "interrelated" is a complicated term. If your great-great-great-great-great-grandfather had another wife besides your 5xgreat-grandmother, and by that wife had a son, who married into Family Z, "you" are technically related to Family Z, although if you wanted to marry someone of your current generation from that family, you probably could.

In short, the entire wizarding world probably share ancestors and are indeed "all interrelated" somehow, but for characters such as Tom Riddle and Harry Potter, any relatives are either dead or too distant to count.



Puck - Apr 25, 2005 6:55 pm (#908 of 2970)
I think that Draco new Crabbe and Goyle ahead of time. Perhaps some wizarding families live in areas where they are more clustered, and others live in more muggle populated areas. If Molly homeschooled the children, and they all had each other as mates, unlikely they would have had much contact with other children.

Some wizards may go to muggle schools are children, if living in a muggle village, and thus would make friends with muggle children. This is one place for relationships to start. Must be a weird conversation, though. Do you drop the "I'm a wizard" bomb on the 3rd date, or wait until after the question has been popped?



Czarina II - Apr 26, 2005 3:59 am (#909 of 2970)
Well, in the case of witches dating muggle men, I would assume that they just did not mention it until after they were married (after all, men are supposed to do the proposing). In fact, we know already that that was the case with Voldemort's parents.

Makes one wonder how, exactly, Mrs Finnegan approached the subject. Maybe her husband figured it out for himself? Maybe they discussed the matter while they were still dating? (After all, Seamus only said he was 'surprised', not when.)



Finn BV - Apr 29, 2005 2:56 pm (#910 of 2970)
This may not technically be "odd," but? if we know from OoP that OWL results come in the mid to late summer, certainly after school is over, why do Percy receive his NEWT grades and Fred and George received their OWL grades on the last day of term (end of PoA, pp. 429-430 American ed.)?
I understand that the tests for fourth-years and lower could be graded much more quickly, but why the delay in the OWL grading, or why the early results in HP3?



Choices - Apr 29, 2005 5:44 pm (#911 of 2970)
I wonder if NEWT grades are sent out earlier because the 7th years are finished with school and possible need their grades to apply for a job?



Puck - Apr 29, 2005 6:56 pm (#912 of 2970)
I had wondered about that as well. Fred and Gearoge did get early results. Plus, there was a comment once about Percy having his Head Boy Badge all summer, but Ron and Hermione didn't find out about prefect status until just before term.

Perhaps being busy with the Order the system has become delayed?

By the way, how would Lucius know that Hermione had out scored Draco on all the exams at end of first year? (Malfoy comments about this in Knockturn Alley on CoS). Does his money buy him access to students' grades? I'm sure sonny boy wouldn't have been bragging about Hermione's high scores.



Mrs Brisbee - Apr 30, 2005 5:20 am (#913 of 2970)
Fred and George's O.W.L. results at the end of PoA may just have been them reporting how they thought they did after the tests. I can picture them shrugging and saying their tests went perfectly okay. We don't learn how poorly they actually did until GoF.



Finn BV - Apr 30, 2005 1:25 pm (#914 of 2970)
But the exact quote is, "The exam results came out on the last day of term. ? Percy had got his top-grade N.E.W.T.s; Fred and George had scraped a handful of O.W.L.s each." I don't think that by saying that F&G are guessing what they got; the exam results came out already.



zelmia - Apr 30, 2005 1:55 pm (#915 of 2970)
This has actually come up before, I believe, so you may want to look back to earlier in the Thread to get some good reasoning for this discrepancy.

My own personal rationalization is that in OP Umbridge was 'in charge'. Therefore, it may be simply that Umbridge made an "executive decision" that she personally wanted a hand in going over the results of the OWL exams before they were sent to the students.

As for the Head Boy/Prefect badges, my own recollection is that Percy received his Head Boy Letter a week before Harry's birthday, as Ron mentions it in his birthday note to Harry: "PS - Percy's Head Boy. He got the letter last week." Accounting for Errol's travel time from Egypt, Percy probably got his letter around 21 July.
Ron and Hermione get their badges in OP in early August. Personally, I don't think the couple of week's difference in these two awards is all that significant. Things change from year to year in any school system for a variety of reasons. Why should Hogwarts be any different?



Puck - Apr 30, 2005 6:40 pm (#916 of 2970)
Was it early August? I thought the letters arrived only a couple of days before term. Perhaps DD pondered over the decision of making Harry a prefect.



zelmia - Apr 30, 2005 9:19 pm (#917 of 2970)
Hm. You're right. "On the very last day of the Holidays..." Still, Dumbledore confesses to having deliberated over whether or not to choose Harry for Prefect. Maybe he just got wrapped up in the whole "re-forming the Order" business.



Finn BV - May 1, 2005 6:01 am (#918 of 2970)
Yeah? I checked the Lexicon on that and in the day-by-day calendar of Y15-16, August 31 is set as the day of receiving the letters. Still, doesn't that seem to be cutting it a little close? DD may have been wrapped up in the whole "re-forming the Order" business, as Zelmia said, but we already know there are problems with owl interception, or at least people are keeping an extra eye out. And why would Molly wait to buy the school supplies on the last day before term? I don't have my book handy? was the Order busy in the previous few days?



azi - May 1, 2005 7:19 am (#919 of 2970)
I assummed the letters were so late in book 5 because Dumbledore couldn't find a Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher so they couldn't be sent until a teacher was found. I also thought McGonagall writes the supplies list anyway? The ministry stepped in at the last minute and provided Umbridge, the letters could now be sent because the booklist included everything needed.



Finn BV - May 1, 2005 7:41 am (#920 of 2970)
Good point Azi - forgot that DD had a hard time finding DADA?



Choices - May 1, 2005 9:39 am (#921 of 2970)
Here's something that struck me as odd last night in reading COS. Maybe someone can give me their take on this.

HRH return to the hallway where they found Mrs. Norris hanging from the torch bracket, petrified. Harry notices "scorch marks" on the floor and then later recalls ..."Remember all the water on the floor?"

What were the "scorch marks" from and how could they get on the floor if the floor was covered with water? Any Ideas?

One more oddity - Also in ch. 9 of COS Harry notes that he had seen Filch using Mrs. Skower's Magical Mess Remover to try to scrub the words off the wall about the chamber being opened, but they wouldn't come off. Wasn't that written in blood and why wouldn't it come off the wall? What sort of spell could have been used to keep it there? One similar to the one used on Mrs. Black's portrait perhaps (a permanent sticking charm?).



Finn BV - May 1, 2005 10:29 am (#922 of 2970)
Probably not a Permanent sticking charm, because I would be exceptionally suprised if in PoA and on it's still there, but it doesn't strike me as "odd" that this key plot point wouldn't come off with a - seemingly simple - mess remover. Somehow only when the basilisk was killed and Riddle was "gone," then the words would leave. Also perhaps now that Ginny, the writer of the words, is not possessed, she could make the words disappear.
I'll have to go back to CoS for the scorch marks thing.



mischa fan - May 1, 2005 11:46 am (#923 of 2970)
Choices: One more oddity - Also in ch. 9 of COS Harry notes that he had seen Filch using Mrs. Skower's Magical Mess Remover to try to scrub the words off the wall about the chamber being opened, but they wouldn't come off. Wasn't that written in blood and why wouldn't it come off the wall? What sort of spell could have been used to keep it there? One similar to the one used on Mrs. Black's portrait perhaps (a permanent sticking charm?).

I think it was something that Riddle was controlling through Ginny, once Riddle was taken care of then the words would come off. If it was a permanent sticking charm then I think that a wizard with the skill of a Dumbledore, Flitwick, or McG would have no trouble removing it once they decided to do so, I think Dumbledore left it up there for a reason, on that we have not been told. As for he scorch mark on the floor, maybe Ginny set a torch down on the ground when she wrote the words.



Choices - May 1, 2005 11:57 am (#924 of 2970)
But the floor was covered with water at the time - Moaning Myrtle's bathroom had been flooded.....plus the torches were in their usual brackets. We've never seen one of the kids carry a torch that I can remember. They use their wand and "Lumos" when they need light. Harry only noticed the scorch marks after the water had been mopped up. I still want to know what made the scorch marks? They have to have been mentioned for a reason.



mischa fan - May 1, 2005 12:05 pm (#925 of 2970)
I don't think that Ginny learned to do "Lumos" yet, remember she was just a first year. I don't remember when Harry and Co. started to use Lumos, but, if I remember correctly, on Halloween in the first book Hermione was the first one to use a charm they learned in class, and that was the levitating charm. So Ginny could have took a torch to enter the chamber, came out, set the torch down, scribbled the message on the wall, then put he torch back, then Myrtle could have flooded the bathroom and hallway. A stretch maybe, but I think it is plausible.



Choices - May 1, 2005 2:00 pm (#926 of 2970)
Ginny had grown up with 6 brothers who could have taught her "Lumos". Remember her Bat Bogey Hex? Ginny is a very talented little witch.

Hermione had done "alohomora" on the door to where Fluffy was guarding the trapdoor before that. I don't remember when they first used "Lumos".



Puck - May 1, 2005 6:03 pm (#927 of 2970)
I think that the Scorch marks have something to do with the Hand of Glory and will come up in a later book. It's not like JKR to throw in a clue and resolve it somewhere, so I am convinced it will come up in 6 or 7. I agree that that marks on the floor were made before Myrtle flooded the bathroom. (Hand of Glory is an object that made it into the movie, and thus could be the thing that JKR made sure didn't get cut, although it seemingly isn't important to the movie's plot.)



Steve Newton - May 1, 2005 6:06 pm (#928 of 2970)
I have not seen anything that I have read about the Hand of Glory that would leave scorch marks. Only the barer can see the light.



Choices - May 1, 2005 6:37 pm (#929 of 2970)
I agree Steve. Who would have the Hand of Glory and what would it have to do with the COS? We know Draco asked his father for it, but we have no evidence that Lucius bought it for him - unless JKR said so in one of her chats or interviews. Please tell us what canon evidence you have for the Hand of Glory leaving "scorch marks" on the floor in COS? I don't see how it could do that. It is my understanding that the Hand of Glory provides light that only a thief (the owner of the hand) can see. I don't see how it would figure into the plot and it is never mentioned again in that book that I know of. The scorch marks are never explained to my knowledge.



Steve Newton - May 1, 2005 7:09 pm (#930 of 2970)
Thanks for the support. It makes me wish that I had spelled bearer correctly.



Catherine - May 2, 2005 3:42 am (#931 of 2970)
I posted a theory about the Hand of Glory a long time ago:

Catherine, "Not Covered in Other Threads" #65, 7 Oct 2003 8:00 am

Choices, JKR said in From the October 16, 2000 interview, which I read at the Quick Quotes site: "Most of the magic is made up. Occasionally I will use something that people used to believe was true - for example, the "Hand of Glory" which Draco gets from Borgin and Burkes in Chamber of Secrets." (underline mine)

I speculated that if Draco were sneaking around the castle with a candle in the Hand, if he gets the candle too close, it will leave a mark.

It makes me wish that I had spelled bearer correctly. --Steve Newton

Steve, when I read "barer," I laughed aloud. Thanks for the chuckle this morning, even if it was unintentional.



Choices - May 2, 2005 8:28 am (#932 of 2970)
Then Draco had to have been on his hands and knees crawling down the corridor with a candle in his hand (of Glory?) and managed to scorch the stone floor twice. Why? I could see how scorch marks could get on the ceiling, but how do you get a candle flame to point downwards to scorch the floor? If he dropped the candle, there would have been wax drips on the floor too. Why are these scorch marks never explained? We would never have known that Draco had the Hand of Glory if JKR hadn't mentioned it in a chat/interview. It certainly had no bearing on the plot of COS.



Catherine - May 2, 2005 8:44 am (#933 of 2970)
It certainly had no bearing on the plot of COS. --Choices.

I'm not sure I follow how that makes the theory wrong, or makes it so unlikely that it could be proven important later.

You are right in that we don't have an explanation for the scorch marks. Harry's observation of them was interrupted, which made them seem interesting to me.

I just find it odd that there are scorch marks at the site of an attack. When I saw that interview in which JKR mentions that Draco has the Hand, I thought, "Hmm. A candle could leave scorch marks."

I don't find it odd that Draco might be doing a bit of after-hours sleuthing; certainly, Harry does this throughout the books. Harry was looking carefully enough to find the scorch marks; who's to say that Draco wasn't tryng to find the entrance to the Chamber?

In fact, it makes sense. Draco mentions that his father hides valuable Dark Arts items under the drawing room floor in their house. So wouldn't Draco think to look for a secret opening at floor level?

There are, of course, other explanations for the scorch marks; perhaps they aren't significant at all, and, as my original post suggests, are merely a red herring. But I don't think so.



Choices - May 2, 2005 9:13 am (#934 of 2970)
I'm in no way implying that they may not be important later on. I find them very interesting and I know JKR doesn't mention things for no good reason. It's just that we are not told in the books (so far) that Draco has the Hand of Glory and it doesn't seem to be important in book 2, and through book 5 it is not mentioned again, but who is to say that it will not be important in book 6 or 7? I am just very curious about them (the scorch marks) and what significance they do have. I know when JKR interrupts something, it usually means she is hiding an important clue, but this time she has written three more books without so much as a word about "scorch marks" or the Hand of Glory. It's just odd.



Puck - May 3, 2005 5:42 am (#935 of 2970)
I don't think that so much time passing since the hands mention means anything. Afterall, until GoF we had no idea of why the same wand cores was important, which was mentioned early in book one. JKR plants seeds when she can, and gets back to them when needed. I can't see her saying (even in an interview) about Draco having the Hand if it wouldn't come into play at some point.



Choices - May 3, 2005 8:17 am (#936 of 2970)
Puck - "Afterall, until GoF we had no idea of why the same wand cores was important, which was mentioned early in book one. JKR plants seeds when she can...."

Yes, but we had other mentions about the wand cores - JKR kept them in our minds. She tells us about "scorch marks" on the floor in COS, and through the end of book 5, they are never mentioned again. It's just odd.



Madame Pomfrey - May 3, 2005 12:49 pm (#937 of 2970)
I always thought the scorch marks were from the stare of the baskilis.Wasn't Colins camera smoking?I know in the movie Nick was smoking or appeared to be.But if this were the case it seems that scorch marks would be mentioned more than once or at other crime scenes.I find it odd as well.



Choices - May 3, 2005 1:30 pm (#938 of 2970)
You are right Madame Pomfrey. I just read the scene with Colin being brought into the hospital wing last night and the camera emitted a jet of steam when Dumbledore opened it and Harry could smell burning plastic. As for Nick, he looked black and smokey instead of silvery and transparent. Perhaps the basilisk does cause objects to burn with it's stare, but it doesn't seem to cause burns to living things who see it indirectly. The are just petrified. Moaning Myrtle did look it in the eye and there was no mention of her sustaining burns, she just died. So, the scorch marks remain a mystery, don't they?



Madame Pomfrey - May 4, 2005 5:38 am (#939 of 2970)
Yes,they do.Another mystery I hope Jo clears up in upcoming books.Another thing I would like to know is how Mrs.Figg communicated with Mr.Tibbles her cat.Jo said on her website that Figgy could not see the dementors yet she knew they were there and that Harry was in trouble I'm guessing through Mr.Tibbles.Perhaps he's an animagus.



Choices - May 4, 2005 8:39 am (#940 of 2970)
I read somewhere that Squibs use "familiars" to help them. The Squib can't see magical things, but the familiar can and they warn the Squib. Sort of like Mrs. Norris does for Filch.



Madame Pomfrey - May 4, 2005 10:40 am (#941 of 2970)
I recall that too now that you mention it but how do they inform the squib? Mr.Tibbles somehow passed the info about the Dementors to Mrs.Figg.But How?



Choices - May 4, 2005 12:44 pm (#942 of 2970)
You have me there Madame Pomfrey. I don't have a clue how Mr. Tibbles or Mrs. Norris communicate with Mrs. Figg and Filch. Maybe it is some form of ESP?



Finn BV - May 4, 2005 1:51 pm (#943 of 2970)
How much do we know about kneazles? They must have some sort of communication that we can't guess? that JKR hasn't introduced to us yet. I've never really read FB so I don't know what there is to say about them, but the form of communication - and more info about Mr. Tibbles, Mrs. Norris, and Crookshanks - is definitely going to appear in the upcoming books? JKR can't leave us not knowing about key messengers in the story.



Choices - May 4, 2005 5:01 pm (#944 of 2970)
Kneazles are cat-like creatures with tails like a lion. They can be aggressive, but if they take a liking to a witch/wizard they make very good pets. You have to have a license to own one, as they are sufficiently unusual looking so that muggles would notice them. They are very intelligent and can lead their owner home if he/she (the owner) gets lost. A kneazle can interbreed with a cat.

Nothing is listed about any special communication skills.



Choices - May 4, 2005 5:22 pm (#945 of 2970)
But didn't Sirius "communicate" with Crookshanks as Snuffles? Animals do have a form of communication with each other.



Quidditch Mom - May 5, 2005 4:18 pm (#946 of 2970)
I've been listening to the CDs of Order of the Phoenix during my evening walks (it's great motivation to exercise!) Anyway, this relates back to Catherine's post #932, and a few others around in there. There's mention in OotP of something that causes a scorch. Chapter 24, page 334, US hardcover, during Harry's first occlumency lesson.

When Snape first breaks into Harry's mind, and Harry resists: (Harry) "looked up at Snape, who had lowered his wand and was rubbing his wrist. There was an angry weal there, like a scorch mark.

"Did you mean to produce a Stinging Hex?" asked Snape coolly."

So Stinging Hexes produce scorch-like marks?

Sorry if this has been mentioned before. It just caught my "ear" as I was walking, and I thought it was interesting. Not sure how or why a Stinging Hex might relate to the corridor in CoS, but I'll give it a think.



Choices - May 5, 2005 6:41 pm (#947 of 2970)
But, there is a big difference in causing a scorch mark on someone's skin and causing the same on a stone floor.



LooneyLuna - May 6, 2005 9:13 am (#948 of 2970)
Going back to Mrs. Figg knowing the Dementors were there. I think Mrs. Figg "felt" the Dementor's presence. Growing up in a Wizard household, she knows about them, even if she can't see them. She also must know about certain spells and recognized that Harry had cast a Patronus charm, the only spell that would drive the Dementors away. She saw the Stag going after something. She put two and two together and came up with Dementor.

Mr. Tibbles only needed to come and get Mrs. Figg, I don't think he communicated to her anything other than urgency.

Just my two Knuts. Smile



Quidditch Mom - May 6, 2005 12:16 pm (#949 of 2970)
"But, there is a big difference in causing a scorch mark on someone's skin and causing the same on a stone floor. " CHOICES

That could be...JKR is making all this up, so who knows how spells react on skin vs. stone?

I'd agree that a Stinging Hex isn't nearly as intriguing as Draco with the Hand of Glory causing the scorch mark. Maybe someone was trying to defend themselves, and a Stinging Hex was the most powerful spell they knew to cast?

Are there any other passing mentions of scorch marks throughout the series?



Choices - May 6, 2005 12:23 pm (#950 of 2970)
Probably only on poor Dobby's hands where he ironed them, or on his ears where he shut them in the oven door. :-)

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Snuffles - May 6, 2005 12:28 pm (#951 of 2970)
I forgot about Dobby. And here's me thinking more along the lines of Draco's trousers whenever he has to go near the forbidden forest. Maybe its me that needs to iron my hands!



Catherine - May 6, 2005 3:00 pm (#952 of 2970)
Didn't Percy mention in GoF that Howlers had caused scorch marks on his desk at work?



Little Ginny - May 8, 2005 9:27 am (#953 of 2970)
I don't know whether this question has been asked before, I started a search, but didn't get any results, so I'll simply ask again.

A friend asked me to translate something into Latin, and the word for "dragon" also turned up. I was sure the Latin word "draco" was male, thinking about the Hogwarts motto, but my dictionary, which I checked for the plural form, told me "draco" was female.

Thus, shouldn't the Hogwarts motto be "Draco dormiens numquam titillanda", or is my Latin worse than I thought? Any Latin scholars around?

And am I totally mad to worry about such things? I think I certainly am, but I just can't stand the thought JKR made a mistake, and I hope it's me...



Finn BV - May 8, 2005 1:06 pm (#954 of 2970)
I feel very bummed I don't know the answer after studying Latin for 2 years? I will ask my teacher tomorrow. I can't say for certain, but I'm pretty sure the verb end doesn't change depending on the gender? that's for nouns (and adjectives) only.



Little Ginny - May 9, 2005 8:29 am (#955 of 2970)
Yes, but "titillandus" is not a verb, it's a gerund, a kind of noun-verb-hybrid, so it should be in concord with the subject, shouldn't it?

Thanks for checking with your teacher, I'm pretty excited what they will say!



Finn BV - May 9, 2005 3:02 pm (#956 of 2970)
But isn't it though? HP Lexicon says? The Lexicon says that it means "Never tickle a sleeping dragon" - or "Draco dormiens numquam titillandus." Draco = dragon, dormiens = sleeping (that's the verb acting as an adjective, whatever type of gerund/participle/whatever it is, I don't know, but?), numquam = never; thus, titillandus = tickle. "Never tickle" is an imperative, and therefore the verb of the sentence; it is a sentence.

Is it just me? Am I completely wrong?
PS? sorry, forgot to ask him. I will write a big note on my forehead to myself. Then again, I won't see it, but surely some people will stare and I'll remember ;-).



zelmia - May 9, 2005 5:43 pm (#957 of 2970)
My understanding - and of course I could be mixing this up with something else rattling around in my head - is that in Latin one conjugates the noun not the verb. So the verb tense wouldn't change to agree with the noun, but rather the specific meaning of the verb.

Anyone??



Finn BV - May 10, 2005 4:16 am (#958 of 2970)
Yes, which is what I (thought I was) trying to say in my post a couple of posts ago. That is, that only nouns and adjectives change their endings ? subject will have no effect on verbs.

And this reminds me? I am at school now and I am going to ask my Latin teacher as soon as I see him! (Thanks!)



Finn BV - May 10, 2005 4:35 am (#959 of 2970)
Ok, I just asked my teacher, and? he proved the Lexicon wrong! Technically, "Draco dormiens numquam titillandus" means "A sleeping dragon is not to be tickled" and the word "est" could be added if wanted. However, Ginny ? I don't know where you got that draco was female, because it's definitely male.

But the motto most definitely does NOT mean "Never tickle a sleeping dragon" because there's no imperative present.
Hope this solves the mystery.



zelmia - May 10, 2005 6:45 am (#960 of 2970)
Well, regardless of the literal translation, the meaning is definitely clear.



Little Ginny - May 10, 2005 6:50 am (#961 of 2970)
Oh, well, then I will have to write a furious letter to the editors of my dictionary instead of Bloomsbury :-)...

Because I double and triple-checked my dictionary and it said female.

I'm glad it's neither me nor JKR but the dictionary who is to blame, though.

Thanks a lot for all your help!



Finn BV - May 10, 2005 1:27 pm (#962 of 2970)
Zelmia - I just added that he proved the Lexicon wrong for effect. I know that basically they say the same thing. Just felt a moment of triumph coming on and I had to use it. :-)

Ginny - glad the problem's solved. I looked in at his dictionary and it definitelysaid male. Hmmmm?



Miriam Huber - May 15, 2005 7:33 am (#963 of 2970)
PoA, in the Shrieking Shack: Harry wants to kill Sirius, but he can´t bring himself to do it before Lupin comes.

But to me, it looks as if everyone (including Sirius) was taking the possibility serious that Harry would kill him. BUT HOW COULD HE?

He only learned about the AK in GoF, and we know (from Moody and from Bellatrix) that you have to be a powerful wizard to cast an unforgivable spell. So what was Harry, only a third-year student at that time, exactly planning to do to Sirisu with his wand?



Jennifer Anderson - May 15, 2005 7:54 am (#964 of 2970)
I don't think that Harry relized that he didn't know how to kill with a wand, just that he wanted to. Besides he could've killed him without using AK, there's more than one way to skin a cat.



Finn BV - May 15, 2005 11:07 am (#965 of 2970)
Hey Choices, going back to your thing about scorch marks, in the "Not Covered in Other Threads" thread (Professor Dumbledore, "Not Covered in Other Threads" #813, 13 May 2005 11:12 am), Professor Dumbledore had a great anagram site. So I typed in the titles of all the books, and when you type "The Chamber of Secrets" it gives you "The best fame scorcher." I nearly fell out of my chair. Is it a sign? ? Just thought you might get a kick out of it.



Choices - May 15, 2005 4:38 pm (#966 of 2970)
Thanks for that fbv. That is interesting!! :-)

Talking about Harry trying to kill Sirius in the Shrieking Shack, in book 3 Hermione tells Harry that Dumbledore (I think it was him) said only a powerful wizard could have conjured the Patronus that ran off all the dementors at the lake. So, Harry is a powerful wizard and just maybe he could have hurt Sirius pretty bad. In his weakened condition a serious spell might have killed him.



Ydnam96 - May 16, 2005 7:26 am (#967 of 2970)
And if you think about it, Harry had years of pent up anger at the unknown person who was responsible for his parent's death. So he could have had the requiset anger and need to really kill Sirius at that point.

Where as in the MoM Harry was filled with so many emotions, they weren't really focused. He was too in the moment of what was going on to get the needed focus for the spell on Bella.



Miriam Huber - May 16, 2005 9:00 am (#968 of 2970)
Yes, but in the MoM, he knew the incantation. In the Shrieking Shack, he didn´t. I can´t imagine you can kill somebody just with "emotional magic", without proper incantation and wand movement, extremely angry or not. And I don´t think there is another killing curse, because he would surely count under "unforgivable", too, and we know there are only three. But perhaps you are right, Choices, he might at least have hurt Sirius, and could have "fed" him to the Dementors aferwards without problem. It just bothered me that Harry and all the others seemed to have been convinced that he could kill Sirius.



Choices - May 16, 2005 9:03 am (#969 of 2970)
I read something last night that struck me as odd. I am rereading POA and was in the part on the train where the dementor enters the compartment where Harry and the gang and Professor Lupin are sitting. The lights go out and when Professor Lupin gets up to confront the dementor, he has a handful of "blue flame" to light the compartment. Why do you suppose he would use "blue flame" instead of just using "lumos" - he had to take out his wand to do the Patronus Charm to run off the dementor anyway, so "lumos" seems like it would have been much easier to give the needed light.



timrew - May 16, 2005 1:31 pm (#970 of 2970)
I think Harry could have killed Sirius by using the "Wingardium Leviosa" spell to bounce him off the ceiling!



The giant squid - May 16, 2005 8:02 pm (#971 of 2970)
Choices: Hermione was using blue flames to light the way waaay back in PS/SS, so that's clearly a simple conjuration. Lupin probably used that instead of Lumos because it required less effort & he needed all of his focus to ward off the dementor.

Or something like that.

--Mike

Edit: is it just me, or do Tim's and my avatars mesh together rather well?



timrew - May 17, 2005 2:25 pm (#972 of 2970)
Mmmmmm! Squid!



Norbert not a common welsh green - May 20, 2005 1:25 pm (#973 of 2970)
Something I found odd is why Fudge trusted Lucais after the events of CoS. He knows that Lucais blackmailed people to get rid of DD. The MoM should have found the Malfoy's stash of dark matireals (assuming Ron told his father about the trapdoor) and Fudge proabaly knows that Lucais planted the diary (even if he cant prove it). How much would Lucais have had to bribe Fudge & does Fudge really have so little morals.



Jennifer Anderson - May 20, 2005 8:01 pm (#974 of 2970)
I think Fudge is corrupt. And don't think Ron told his dad about the trapdoor, because he would have to say where he got the information, and that would mean admiting that he broke the law again.



haymoni - May 21, 2005 6:36 am (#975 of 2970)
Broke what law?

Now that Lucius is in custody, I would think the MOM should be searching his home anyway.

Maybe Ron will remember to tell his dad about the door.



Finn BV - May 21, 2005 8:50 am (#976 of 2970)
Haymoni, that Ron drank the Polyjuice Potion. I think it's a little late for Ron to tell his dad about the door -- I would think Lucius would have cleared it out by now!



Norbert not a common welsh green - May 21, 2005 11:49 am (#977 of 2970)
Ron would not have to say where he got the info, he coild say some thing like "I overheard Malfoy talking about the ministray raid on his house in school today, he mentioned a trapdoor under the floor of the living room that you didn't find. You should go back and have a look"



far from prefect - May 21, 2005 3:29 pm (#978 of 2970)
Hopefully all the DEs will be under intense scrutiny after the MoM incident. This would be a perfect time for Ron and Harry to mention to Mr Weasley about the chamber under the dining room floor. I hope they have remembered. In retrospect, it seems incredible that they have not told Mr W before now...



haymoni - May 21, 2005 3:47 pm (#979 of 2970)
Ron may have told his father but I doubt anybody at the MOM would have allowed Muggle-loving Arthur Weasley to search the home of Lucius the Wonderful.

I'm guessing Hermione wasn't the first student to figure out how to brew the polyjuice potion - it isn't against any laws that I recall - the book was just in the Restricted Section and they DID get a teacher's OK - a big-headed, know-nothing, autograph-a-holic to be sure, but a teacher just the same.



Jennifer Anderson - May 21, 2005 8:23 pm (#980 of 2970)
Hermione stole from Snape. Ron knows she did this. Here is the illegal part [ at least is in the US I don't know about the UK] he and Harry helped use the stolen items, thats "receiving stolen property".



Little Ginny - May 22, 2005 10:10 am (#981 of 2970)
I think that even if the Malfoys' house had been raided and illegal items been found, Mr Malfoy would have been able to talk, and, even more probable, bribe his way out of punishment and disgrace.

Just my two knuts, though.



Ruthie - May 23, 2005 7:14 pm (#982 of 2970)
I'm reading CoS and I can't get over why everone accepted that Hagrid opened the Chamber when the beast he had was a spider - spiders can't petrify people can they? Also i noticed that when Harry first enters DD's office and sees Fawkes DD emphasises that fawkes is a very faithful pet - why would he do this? (you may have to read the passage to understand where Im coming from I think it's the beginning of the Polyjuice Potion chapter in the British edition)

Any help?



zelmia - May 23, 2005 8:09 pm (#983 of 2970)
Well, it never actually says that anyone was petrified the first time the Chamber was opened, only that "a Mud-blood died" as Draco Malfoy says. This could very well have been caused by a giant spider, even a very young one.



mischa fan - May 24, 2005 8:20 am (#984 of 2970)
Ruthie, while spiders don't petrify people, their venom does paralyze, rather then kill, their victims. Some one paralyzed could appear as petrified.



Choices - May 24, 2005 8:28 am (#985 of 2970)
I think there is a very obvious difference between being paralyzed and being petrified. A paralyzed person can often speak, blink their eyes, be fed and their limbs can be moved by someone. They are aware of people around them. A petrified person can not blink, speak, eat or even have their limbs moved into a more comfortable position....they are like stone and are unaware of people visiting or caring for them. Quite a difference, and people actually can die from spider bites.



Jennifer Anderson - May 24, 2005 1:20 pm (#986 of 2970)
Ruthie, it might not have been common knowledge that the spider paralyzed rather than petrified. And Hermione in SS said that most wizards don't have a hint of logic.



haymoni - May 24, 2005 2:57 pm (#987 of 2970)
I don't recall ever reading that anyone was petrified due to Tom's actions. Just poor Myrtle dying.



Choices - May 24, 2005 5:37 pm (#988 of 2970)
Haymoni - That is interesting that no one was petrified last time and they were this time. I wonder why the difference? Myrtle seems to be the only victim from last time and this time there were lots of people petrified, but no victims (thank goodness). Perhaps last time the basilisk was not set loose in the whole school, but only stuck it's head out in Myrtle's bathroom, she looked it in the eye and died. Perhaps Tom Riddle got scared they would close the school after Myrtle's death and locked the basilisk back down in the chamber. That would explain no more victims and no petrified people. Very curious!



Eponine - May 24, 2005 5:54 pm (#989 of 2970)
There is something that makes me think there was more to the original Chamber opening than just Myrtle's death.

From CoS, UK paperback p. 182

'The thing is, Tom,' he sighed, 'special arrangements might have been made for you, but in the current circumstances...'

'You mean all these attacks, sir?'

blah blah blah

'We are no nearer locating the - er - sources of all this unpleasantness.'

Riddle's eyes had widened.

'Sir - if the person was caught...if it all stopped...'

'What do you mean?' said Dippet, with a squeak in his voice, sitting up in his chair. 'Riddle, do you mean you know something about these attacks?'

Emphasis mine. It sounds to me that there were other occurences beyond Myrtle's death. I don't know what it could have been, but there must have been something else.



Finn BV - May 24, 2005 5:58 pm (#990 of 2970)
Well, it was very lucky that this time each person/creature petrified had some way of "relieving" death (water, camera, ghost, mirror). But in the film (I haven't read CoS in a long time? much due for a reread) Myrtle says that she just looked, saw its yellow eyes, and died. (I would guess it would be the same in the book, basically.) Then we hear DD/Dippet talking to TMR and it does seem Tom is scared the school will close, Choices ? besides, perhaps Myrtle was enough for then. He clearly became anxious with the "great Harry Potter" and all the - excuse my vulgar language - mudbloods around that he went on this streak.

Edit: Eponine, we cross posted! And? your point is much better than mine. As I said, I'm much due for a reread. Your emphasis on the references to "all" are very insightful.



zelmia - May 24, 2005 7:45 pm (#991 of 2970)
It seems that only Dumbledore, Hagrid and any of the residents ghosts are the only current inhabitants of Hogwarts who would be able to say what had happened 50 years ago. I am curious as to why no one thought to ask Sir Nicholas or any of the other House ghosts about the situation.



Ruthie - May 24, 2005 10:54 pm (#992 of 2970)
I think that maybe only certain teachers and Dippet knew about the true nature of the attacks and that there was a Chamber at all (except that Draco knew about it but perhaps Tom told all his followers - including Lucius' father maybe?? - about what was really happening) After all, they did blame the death on a freak accident and if everyone knew what really happened surely someone would have complained about the lie or let the truth leak out.

Basically I think it was a need to know situation and the ghosts etc didn't need to know



Catherine - May 25, 2005 3:02 am (#993 of 2970)
Well, judging by Myrtle's pleased reaction, no one ever bothered to ask her how she died before Harry did.

It seems like Myrtle could have cleared things up a bit, at least with casting doubt on Hagrid as the perpetrator. Aragog would not have had the huge yellow eyes, for example.

Hagrid, as a magically awkward half-breed with an obsession for scary pets, made too good of a scapegoat.



Choices - May 25, 2005 10:03 am (#994 of 2970)
Eponine - Thanks for posting that - it definitely appears there were more attacks than just poor Myrtle. Hopefully she was the only death.



Amilia Smith - May 25, 2005 3:16 pm (#995 of 2970)
Also, when Harry first starts writing in the diary, Tom says several people were attacked, and one girl died. Granted, this information is from Riddle, so you can take that as you will. No books with me, so I can't give you the exact quote, but I was listening to the CD this morning.

Mills.



Robert Dierken - May 26, 2005 5:12 pm (#996 of 2970)
Myrtle might not have been at Hogwarts when Hagrid was accused. She was probably off haunting Olive Hornby then.



Choices - May 26, 2005 5:54 pm (#997 of 2970)
I think Myrtle was already dead by the time Hagrid was accused. Tom Riddle went to see Headmaster Dippet and Myrtle's death is mentioned, then Tom goes down in the dungeon and confronts Hagrid and accuses Aragog of killing Myrtle. Then sometime after that, Hagrid is blamed and expelled.



Ms Amanda - May 26, 2005 6:13 pm (#998 of 2970)
Choices, I think that yes, Myrtle was dead, but that Robert is right. Myrtle is a ghost and is probably haunting Olive.



Choices - May 27, 2005 9:32 am (#999 of 2970)
OK, I got you! I misunderstood what Robert was saying about Myrtle. Right you are, she had it in for Olive and probably made that a priority to get busy making Olive pay for being ugly to her.



far from prefect - May 27, 2005 10:43 am (#1000 of 2970)
Not that it really makes any difference, but wouldn't Olive have been at Hogwarts at that time, too? If Myrtle was haunting her it would have been at the school until the summer break. Funny that no one asked the ghostly Myrtle what had happened.

Maybe there is a lag time between death and becoming a ghost. Some sort of transition phase...

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hells456 - May 27, 2005 2:56 pm (#1001 of 2970)
Myrtle followed her about until she was forced to return to her toilet. What I wonder about was why Olive died so young.



Jennifer Anderson - May 27, 2005 4:45 pm (#1002 of 2970)
The book didn't say that Olive died, it just that she went to the MoM and had her banished from her.



Miriam Huber - May 27, 2005 10:40 pm (#1003 of 2970)
Sorry to interrupt your discussion but another "odd" thing just popped into my head:

Oop, first DA-meeting in the Hog´s Head, Zacharias Smith makes critical remarks. Fred and George threaten him.

If you think about it: Wouldn´t it have been natural if the had said: We will hex you, or: we can wash out your ears with "scourgify", if you like?

Instead, the "offered" to improve his hearing with a lethal looking instrument (pointed, if I remember rightly). Why didn´t JKR make them react in a "normal" (for wizards) way but introduced this "thing"? Any ideas?



Madame Pomfrey - May 28, 2005 4:28 am (#1004 of 2970)
Thats a good question Miriam.I wondered what that instrument was and why it wasn't fully described.Being that it is from Zonko's, it really peaked my interest.I think it may come back into play later.Why else would Jo tease us like that.She knows how we pick everything apart.



zelmia - May 28, 2005 9:28 am (#1005 of 2970)
Well, think about it. What would be more threatening: The idea of hearing "Scourgify" and finding your ears suddenly filling with soap bubbles, or the thought of some unknown, rather 'lethal-looking' device being applied to your person.
The other thing is, yes they are Wizards, but they are also human. We have seen several instances where the students have given us a "demonstration in Muggle dueling". Hermione and Millicent Bulstrode, Ron's multiple instances of having to be bodily restrained before he took a swing at Draco, even Arthur's and Lucius's fight in the bookstore.
Wizards, they may be, but there is clearly something exceedingly satisfying in landing a good solid punch on the chin of someone who truly deserves it. In my view, the Twins acted perfectly naturally.



Finn BV - May 28, 2005 9:31 am (#1006 of 2970)
Yes, I agree with zelmia. Imagine in the Muggle world, somebody threatens you with a gun. You know what happens when they shoot it, a bullet will enter the target. However, if they have some sort of weapon unkown to you, you don't know what will happen. Obviously, I hope Zacharias Smith is smart enough to know that Fred and George and a long Zonko's product does not mean fun for him, but still, he has never seen the object before and doesn't know what it will do, while he does know what "Scourgify" will do.



Choices - May 28, 2005 12:49 pm (#1007 of 2970)
I agree with Zelmia too and I think it was one of the funniest lines -the twins tell Zacharias they aren't particular about where they stick it. That is a "laugh out loud" line for me. I adore Fred and George.



hells456 - May 28, 2005 4:28 pm (#1008 of 2970)
Jennifer:

"Olive Hornby came into the bathroom - Are you in here again, sulking, Myrtle?' she said, 'because Professor Dippet asked me to look for you -' And then she saw my body?ooooh, she didn't forget it until her dying day, I made sure of that..." GoF

I took 'dying day' to mean that she had already died.



Jennifer Anderson - May 29, 2005 7:04 am (#1009 of 2970)
Yeah, but she said at that after Olive's brother's wedding that she went to MoM and had her banished. And Myrtle said that she didn't forget it until her dying. Notice she said didn't forget it, and not she pestered her til her dying day. I would imagine that if I were in Olive's shoes that it wouldn't matter weather or not I got her banished I'd still remember it forever. And I'd want her to leave me alone.



hells456 - May 29, 2005 3:42 pm (#1010 of 2970)
I don't necessarily think that Myrtle had anything to do with her death, I just thought it was strange that she died relatively young. In a book that JKR said had to be that long because she couldn't cut it any more, I wondered if it had any significance.



Ponine - May 29, 2005 5:48 pm (#1011 of 2970)
I have a question which I am not sure where to put - What does Hagrid base his assertion that no one else wants the DADA position in book 2? Lockheart was apparently the only one that applied as no one else even applied for it, believing it was jinxed - How many DADAs did Hogwarts sispose of before Harry got there? Is there really a point to Snape - uhm - keeping his options open on an annual basis???



Norbert not a common welsh green - Jun 3, 2005 1:36 pm (#1012 of 2970)
I've often wundered about that. It appers that there have been plenty of DADA teachers leaving after a year before Harrys arrivel. However it also appers that Quirell has spent a while teaching DADA before Harry arrived. There are plenty of quotes backing up both points without solidly confirming one or the other. Unless I,ve missed something i think we'll have to wait for JKR to tell us.



Choices - Jun 3, 2005 6:04 pm (#1013 of 2970)
"What does Hagrid base his assertion that no one else wants the DADA position in book 2?"

I think Hagrid is quite close to Dumbledore and much of his knowledge about things comes from Dumbledore.



Madame Pomfrey - Jun 4, 2005 8:38 pm (#1014 of 2970)
Do we know that Quirrell is actually dead? Dumbledore arrived to pull Quirrell off of Harry, Dumbledore says Voldemort left Quirrell to die. Did Voldemort leaving Quirrells body cause his death or did Harry's touching him? Or..if Voldemort left him to die,did Dumbledore try to help him or Do him in? I'm confused.



Netherlandic - Jun 5, 2005 12:06 pm (#1015 of 2970)
Yes, Quirrell is dead. JKR said somewhere that Harry didn't see Quirrell die as he (H)was unconscious, so therefore he didn't see the Testrals at the beginning of the second year. (This is not the exact quote).



Choices - Jun 5, 2005 5:56 pm (#1016 of 2970)
It doesn't come right out in the book and say Quirrell is dead - it says Voldemort left him for dead, but the movie certainly made it clear.



zelmia - Jun 5, 2005 6:31 pm (#1017 of 2970)
Voldemort explains that Quirrell died in his Graveyard Soliloquy in GF.



lemonbalm&bees - Jun 5, 2005 9:04 pm (#1018 of 2970)
Evil masterminds are quite prone to soliloquys, aren't they? Wink



Netherlandic - Jun 6, 2005 4:46 am (#1019 of 2970)
Sorry, Choices, I didn't make myself very clear. JKR said the above in an interview, not in one of the books.



Finn BV - Jun 6, 2005 7:20 am (#1020 of 2970)
Evil masterminds are quite prone to soliloquys, aren't they? -- lemonbalm&bees
LOL? it is quite the cliché.

Anyway, back on topic. Netherlandic is right. JKR's explanation for why Harry didn't see the thestrals in CoS was because he didn't see Quirrell die.

On jkrowling.com, she says:
Why could Harry see the Thestrals 'Order of the Phoenix'? Shouldn't he have been able to see them much earlier, because he saw his parents/Quirrell/Cedric die?

I?ve been asked this a lot. Harry didn?t see his parents die. He was in his cot at the time (he was just over a year old) and, as I say in ?Philosopher?s Stone?, all he saw was a flash of green light. He didn?t see Quirrell?s death, either. Harry had passed out before Quirrell died and was only told about it by Dumbledore in the last chapter.

He did, however, witness the murder of Cedric, and it is this that makes him able to see the Thestrals at last. Why couldn?t he see the Thestrals on his trip back to the train station? Well, I didn?t want to start a new mystery, which would not be resolved for a long time, at the very end of the fourth book. I decided, therefore, that until Harry is over the first shock, and really feels what death means (ie, when he fully appreciates that Cedric is gone forever and that he can never come back, which takes time, whatever age you are) he would not be able to see the Thestrals. After two months away from school during which he has dwelled endlessly on his memories of the murder and had nightmares about it, the Thestrals have taken shape and form and he can see them quite clearly.



Netherlandic - Jun 7, 2005 2:58 am (#1021 of 2970)
Thanks fbv.

By the way. Does anyone know why the American edition of the first book isn't called "Philosophers Stone". Why would Americans need a different title? This rather struck me as odd.



Eponine - Jun 7, 2005 5:52 am (#1022 of 2970)
Because, apparently, we're just not smart enought to understand the word 'philosopher' might not mean Aristotle or Socrates. Obviously, if we saw a book titled 'Philosopher's Stone' we would immediately wonder why anyone would want to read a book about a rock that belonged to Plato.

When PS/SS was first published, JKR's editors thought it would be better to change the title for Americans because 'sorceror' makes us think of wizards. She was willing to change the title because she was just so happy to have the book published.

It bugs me because there are a lot of Americans who knew about the philsopher's stone. I learned about it from the book Gone Away Lake.



Mrs Brisbee - Jun 7, 2005 6:08 am (#1023 of 2970)
I always wondered about the change too. It's funny, because even if you don't know what a philosopher's stone is right off(I knew from playing D&D for years) it is listed in many dictionaries.



applepie - Jun 7, 2005 6:48 am (#1024 of 2970)
I think, too, because it was marketed for kids.



Finn BV - Jun 7, 2005 7:50 am (#1025 of 2970)
Apparently, in England they say "philosopher" to mean "wizard" but in America we say "philosopher" to mean, yes, somebody like Plato; somebody who thinks about things. "Sorcerer" is the word that we use to mean "wizard."



Eponine - Jun 7, 2005 8:31 am (#1026 of 2970)
Well, the concept of the philsopher's stone has been around for centuries. Here is a link about the stone. And Nicholas Flamel was a real person who was reputed to have developed the stone, as seen here.

I don't particularly know if 'philosopher' is meant to be 'wizard' in England, but the idea of the philospher's stone has been around for a very long time.

I always found it a little, not insulting, but presumptious that Americans wouldn't know about the philosopher's stone. I learned about the stone when I was in elementary school, and it bugged me that they changed the term.



Loopy Lupin - Jun 7, 2005 9:21 am (#1027 of 2970)
Eponine is correct. "Wizard" means "wizard" in English, and the "Philosopher's Stone" has been called that forever. Perhaps it is insulting to American's to think that we would run away quickly from a book that appeared to be about philosophy. I daresay, however, the publishers cannot be faulted for wanting to make sure that American kids understood that the book was about "sorcerers."



far from prefect - Jun 7, 2005 2:07 pm (#1028 of 2970)
The great thing is that the books have been published in so many languages and idioms. It's too bad that they americanized some things and, seemingly, dumbed down others. But, I think they have realized that we can figure out most of the briticisms-- although, if I remember correctly, they used dumpster instead of skip in OotP...

Eponine- I read Gone Away Lake, too! A long, long time ago Surprised)



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jun 7, 2005 5:59 pm (#1029 of 2970)
"When PS/SS was first published, JKR's editors thought it would be better to change the title for Americans because 'sorceror' makes us think of wizards..."

Am curious now... what do Brits think of when they see the word sorceror? And what do they call Plato or Aristotle? What do they call Merlin? Or is it really a put-down?



Romulus - Jun 8, 2005 4:27 am (#1030 of 2970)
"Am curious now... what do Brits think of when they see the word sorceror? And what do they call Plato or Aristotle? What do they call Merlin? Or is it really a put-down?"

When we see sorceror, like Americans we think of wizards.

We would call Plato or Aristotle a Philosopher

Merlin is traditionally known as a magician, but only because of the handy alliteration. Magician/wizard/sorceror could all be used.

I don't think any of those words are used as put-downs.

Basically, the title change always confused me too - seems little need for it.



Eponine - Jun 8, 2005 4:50 am (#1031 of 2970)
This is a response from Jo when asked abuut the title change. Found here.

Why did they change the name of the book from HARRY POTTER AND THE PHILOSOPHER'S STONE to HARRY POTTER AND THE SORCERER'S STONE in the US?

Well, once again that was my American editor's choice. He felt "philosopher's stone" gave a false impression of what the book was about. He wanted something more suggestive of magic in the title, so we tried a few alternatives and my favorite was "sorcerer's stone."



Miriam Huber - Jun 8, 2005 1:39 pm (#1032 of 2970)
In GOF, when Mr. Ollivander tests the wands of the champions, he always finishes with conjuring up something.

Fleur: flowers (very fitting and very gentleman-like, as he presented them to her afterwards)

Cedric: grey smoke rings (made me think of Cedrics "echo" in the graveyard, but that´s surely over-interpreted)

Krum: birds (no idea why, but nice)

Harry: fountain of wine. That is what astonished me. I can see absolutely no reason why JKR should pick exactly this. Imagine her sitting and thinking about the scene - why on earth would she come up with wine for Harry and his wand (which, as we know, will prove very important later, and that is probably the reason for that scene at all. She couldn´t expect all her readers to remember that scene from the first book at Ollivander´s with Harry´s and Voldemort´s wand-connection mentioned)?



Robert Dierken - Jun 8, 2005 2:53 pm (#1033 of 2970)
Krum looks a bit like a water bird, and he also flies excellently.



haymoni - Jun 8, 2005 3:32 pm (#1034 of 2970)
So the editor screwed things up, eh???

By the way, I STILL have a paperback copy of "Gone Away Lake". I know there was a sequel, "Return to Gone Away" but I haven't read that in years.

Maybe it really wasn't a fountain of wine coming out of Harry's wand - could be that blood-like stuff that is in that vial at #12.

Or maybe Mr. Ollivander was just a little thirsty right then!



Choices - Jun 8, 2005 5:59 pm (#1035 of 2970)
I think there is an interesting idea about the meaning of the "wine from Harry's wand" on the Alchemy thread, but I can't remember exactly what it says now. You might want to check it out.



far from prefect - Jun 9, 2005 2:18 pm (#1036 of 2970)
I thought wine was odd, too.

Not that it matters one whit, but did the wine evaporate when it came shooting out of Harry's wand? Or, just another magical mess for poor old Filch to clean up?



Netherlandic - Jun 12, 2005 5:33 am (#1037 of 2970)
Thanks for the explanation, Eponine.



Choices - Jun 12, 2005 8:35 am (#1038 of 2970)
Far From Prefect - I always imagined that it just came out of the wand and then immediately faded away. For Filch's sake, I hope that was what happened - no mess to clean up. LOL



Hollywand - Jun 12, 2005 2:27 pm (#1039 of 2970)
Great discussion. "Philosopher's Stone" is an original term for the stone used by alchemists----to metaphorically refer to the internal quest for personal development called "philosophical gold". To your point Ponine, changing the meaning to "Sorcerer" from "Philosopher" takes the reader away from what we alchemists think is the underlying theme of Harry's journey---he reaches the physical stone in book one, a microcosm, and the rest of the six books are about his personal enlightenment, that is his "philosophical gold", personal transformation to overcome evil, which Harry will ultimately achieve.

As to the references to alcohol, we alchemists believe that it's a key metaphor running through the book. Union of opposing forces, alchohol is the aqua vitae, the "water that burns". If you find this line of inquiry interesting, do a dedicated search under alcohol on the Alchemy thread and you will get dozens of references. Same on Mr. Krum, the Viktor.



Madame Pomfrey - Jun 12, 2005 4:13 pm (#1040 of 2970)
Maybe the fountain of wine represents the spilling of blood which is eerie but a possibility.



Hollywand - Jun 12, 2005 5:27 pm (#1041 of 2970)
The fact that Harry's wine produces wine could refer to "Codswallop", which is what Hagrid says when Voldemort's alleged death is mentioned. Again, we've discussed Codswallop quite a bit on the Alchemy thread as well.



KWeldon - Jun 14, 2005 5:50 pm (#1042 of 2970)
I don't see a thread for "Animagi," and this has probably been addressed elsewhere before, but why is transforming into a werewolf painful, when transforming into an animagus is not (presumably, since it's never been referred to as being painful)?



Ydnam96 - Jun 14, 2005 10:18 pm (#1043 of 2970)
Oh, that's a good questin KWeldon! I hadn't thought of that before...hmmmmm...



Melly - Jun 14, 2005 11:30 pm (#1044 of 2970)
I think because when you're an animagus you can change into your animal form at will whereas to change to a werewolf is forced (and lets face it you wouldn't really be welcoming the change in the first place).



KWeldon - Jun 15, 2005 4:25 am (#1045 of 2970)
I think because when you're an animagus you can change into your animal form at will whereas to change to a werewolf is forced

That's certainly a difference between the two, but I don't see why that affects if it's painful or not.



Choices - Jun 15, 2005 11:41 am (#1046 of 2970)
Perhaps, when changing into a werewolf you are struggling against the change - you are tense and fighting (perhaps your muscles go rigid), and that could cause pain. Transforming into your animagus form is a desired change and you'd be more relaxed, thus it is not painful. That would be my guess.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jun 15, 2005 8:03 pm (#1047 of 2970)
Considering a werewolf has more..hmm, energetic tendencies than a drugged dog that will just curl up and wait it out, and resisting the change because your altered form would cause major pain, suffering, and even death. I'd see that as painful, esp. for someone like Lupin. Physically and psychologically.

I think painful transformation fits.

Also consider the horror of wondering what you did that you can't remember, another type of agony...



KWeldon - Jun 15, 2005 8:11 pm (#1048 of 2970)
TBE, I agree that it seems logical for a werewolf transformation to be painful. I just think that reshaping your bones and muscles to become a stag, for example, would be equally physically painful.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jun 15, 2005 8:17 pm (#1049 of 2970)
Agreed, it might, but as it was done willfully, I kind of doubt it. I never remember MG having any after effects from her transformations, nor any mention from Sirius that transforming hurt. Quite frankly, I think I just talked myself into the idea that transforming is not physically painful. Even Neville transfiguring his ears onto a cactus was not described as painful. They were just there...



Abracapocus - Jun 16, 2005 9:15 am (#1050 of 2970)
If I recall correctly, Polyjuice potion transformations were painful as well - at least for Harry. Perhaps any pain involved in changing into animagi has just not been mentioned since it was normal for the experience.

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Ms Amanda - Jun 17, 2005 6:44 pm (#1051 of 2970)
Maybe transformations caused by a wand or incantation or the will are not painful. Even animal transformations that are not animagi are not painful are they? Is Draco hurt by the transformation into a ferret?

However, transformations caused by something in the blood, as the werewolf and polyjuice would be, seem to be painful in and of themselves.



Ydnam96 - Jun 17, 2005 6:48 pm (#1052 of 2970)
Oh, I like that idea of it being something about the blood that changes them and why that would hurt. Good thinking, makes perfect sense.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 17, 2005 6:54 pm (#1053 of 2970)
Okay, I have "foreshadowings" on the brain and wonder if painful blood transformations would be a foreshadowing of Big V's outcome with regard to having Harry's blood?



Ruthie - Jun 17, 2005 11:03 pm (#1054 of 2970)
I like your idea on transforming Ms Amanda. Just wanted to say I thought it was odd that, even though quidditch matches - especially professional ones - can go on for weeks, the Weasleys only booked one night to camp for the World Cup. When you think about it, it gives away the fact that the match was only going to last one night doesn't it?



Choices - Jun 18, 2005 8:14 am (#1055 of 2970)
I don't think Draco was hurt by the transformation, I think it was the bouncing on the stone floor that hurt. LOL LOL LOL Sorry, I can't help it.



DobbyFan - Jun 19, 2005 4:50 am (#1056 of 2970)
Hi All, this is my first post and I didn't know where to put it. However, rereading OoP and CoS I came across a question concerning Kreacher and Dobby..

Here it goes -

I am wondering why Dobby was able to leave his master's house The Malfoy's in CoS to visit Harry potter at Privet Drive. I mean Sirius said in book 5 "get out" to Kreacher and that is how he was able to visit Narcissa but how did Dobby gain access to Harry? I can't find it in any threads that I have been looking at.

What is the significance of this? Any thoughts?



haymoni - Jun 21, 2005 4:33 pm (#1057 of 2970)
It could have been something as simple as "Get out of my sight!" - I could see any one of the Malfoys uttering that statement.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 21, 2005 7:21 pm (#1058 of 2970)
Maybe that is exactly why that Kreacher incident was mentioned. To give us an idea as to how Dobby managed to leave the house he was serving. He could have executed the same poor behavior (as often as necessary) that enraged one of the Malfoys enough to say "get out", or something similar.

I have a feeling that there is a bit more to it, though, because I remember reading DD's comment saying that Hermoine has the right idea (with regard to SPEW).



Miriam Huber - Jun 22, 2005 12:28 pm (#1059 of 2970)
Where is it stated that house elves can leave their master´s house on no account? We have seen more than once that house elves can disobey orders, even if they have to punish themselves severely afterwards. And, of course, it will happen very rarely, because normally the elves love their masters and their house and their status and won´t do anything against their master´s will.

The only question might be why Kreacher waited for Sirius´"misunderstoodable" order to get out. Why didn´t he just disobey? Perhaps it is that thing about "direct orders." Obviously there are some things house elves definitely can´t say, like the things about the Order of the Phoenix Sirius had expressively forbidden Kreacher to tell anyone. So, perhaps (only speculating) Kreacher was bound by and expressive order to the house while Dobby wasn´t? (Perhaps Dobby was once and again send to fetch things, for example shopping from Diagon Alley or so.) Or it depended on the personal strength of the house elf in question. Remember Winky at the World Cup? I think she disobeyed even a direct order of Crouch when she left the tent with Crouch jr., or is my memory faulty?

So many possibilities...



Hollywand - Jun 22, 2005 9:18 pm (#1060 of 2970)
On the House Elves: Kreacher was heavily identified with the Black family and Grimmauld Place; he had no desire to leave the house, even though Sirius has little regard for him. By contrast, Dobby has no love for the Malfoys or their values, and further feels a desire to act for the larger good (very much like Hermione) at the cost of his personal comfort and safety. Dobby tries to interfere in wizard matters as much as Hermione tries to interfere in House Elf matters. Except Dobby can knit better (ok, that's a joke).

There's a real contrast of identity and personal value between the two male figures.

Winky, on the other hand, is the tragic figure who tries to make an untenable situation work, feels attached and identified with her household and masters, depsite her recognition that what they are doing is wrong. Instead of ironing her hands, she stays sedated with butterbeer.



Quidditch Mom - Jun 23, 2005 6:27 am (#1061 of 2970)
Dobby really does seem to be an anomaly in the elf world. Now that Dobby has found a master he respects in Dumbledore, I think he'll be as obedient and hard working as a house-elf can possibly be. I expect the only reason he'll ever leave Hogwarts is to be Harry's personal house elf someday, or perhaps to replace Kreacher at 12GP, if needed. They DO have a way of breaking their own "rules" when sufficiently motivated, though, don't they?

Sorry to be out of sync with the current discussion ... this caught my eye last night. I've been re-reading the series in advance of HBP. (I'm in Book 4 now, so I best hurry.)

The age line around the goblet - the twins tried an aging potion to step over the line with funny results. Why didn't they try "wingardium leviosa" with their parchment? You could stand beyond the age line and your entry would simply waft its way into the goblet.



Mrs Brisbee - Jun 23, 2005 6:35 am (#1062 of 2970)
Hmm, maybe the Goblet of Fire only accepts pieces of paper that are put in, as opposed to tossed in from a distance. In other words the paper has to be held by someone as it is put in.

I've always wondered how Harry could be bound by that contract when he neither wrote his name on the paper nor put it in. Maybe Crouch tore Harry's signature of a piece of homework. I don't know.



Sconie Girl - Jun 23, 2005 9:30 am (#1063 of 2970)
Sorry if this has been discussed....

But I was always a little bothered by the fact the the Death Eaters and the the Order Member could just appartate to the Dept. of Mysteries. If no one even knows what they study there, shouldn't there be some kind of magical means of keeping people out.



Hollywand - Jun 23, 2005 10:08 am (#1064 of 2970)
Sconie, welcome to the Forum! I don't recall specific mention of the Death Eaters having the appartate privelege; they likely arrived by an alternate method. I do recall the detail that Harry notices that the security guard that stopped him last time was oddly absent. This should have clued Harry (well, and me to boot) that the set up was a trick. Lucius has a lot of indirect influence at the Ministry, so someone from within the halls could have colluded with him to give the Death Eaters free access.



Mrs Brisbee - Jun 23, 2005 10:14 am (#1065 of 2970)
Hi Sconie.

The DoM likely does has protections against people just Apparating in. None of the DEs used Apparating when they were down there even when it would be tactically convenient, for example when the kids locked them out of a room the DEs tried to unlock the door or find an another door to the room rather than just Apparate to the other side. The order also showed up via the doors.

The only Apparating we see in the MoM takes place in the Atrium, which acts as an arrival point to those coming to the Ministry.



Ms Amanda - Jun 23, 2005 4:06 pm (#1066 of 2970)
Hmmm. Why, then, did Dumbledore feel it necessary to put an Anti-Disapparation Jinx on the captives at the end of the Battle at the Ministry?

We know that people Apparate to work at the Ministry. Perhaps the DEs were unable to apparate and disapparate at will in the DoM, but DD was fearing that Voldie could?



Choices - Jun 23, 2005 5:56 pm (#1067 of 2970)
I think there must be a spell to prevent anyone from apparating into the MOM after hours, and even in the daytime, you can probably only apparate into the lobby area for security reasons. But, I would think you could disapparate out of the MOM anytime.....thus the need for the Anti-Disapparation Jinx.



haymoni - Jun 23, 2005 6:10 pm (#1068 of 2970)
Didn't wizards apparate in the MOM after the battle?



Ruthie - Jun 23, 2005 6:26 pm (#1069 of 2970)
I think they came by fireplace and there must be something against apparating - around the departments at least - because everyone uses the lifts.



zelmia - Jun 23, 2005 9:02 pm (#1070 of 2970)
I think it's simply that Dumbledore doesn't trust their abilities. Besides: We don't really know that one can't Apparate into the DoM. Perhaps that was why they needed to eliminate Eric the Guard. Perhaps he acts as some sort of monitor. Just a suggestion...



Ms Amanda - Jun 24, 2005 3:29 am (#1071 of 2970)
Just because they use the lifts doesn't mean there is anything against apparating in the departments. Many wizards don't like to apparate. Remember, many wizards are arriving at the ministry by floo powder. Also, Mr. Weasley couldn't apparate to the courtroom in OotP because he was with Harry, who is too young to apparate.

However, since it is the Deparment of Mysteries, and every thing is supposed to be hush-hush, I would question how everyone got in there, too. I would think that some circulating doors would not be enough to frighten off wizards. I just wonder if maybe DD didn't know how they did it either, and put an Anti-Disapparation jinx on them just in case. Also, perhaps an Anti-Disapparation jinx has properties which bind them anyway.



LooneyLuna - Jun 24, 2005 5:57 am (#1072 of 2970)
I'm sure Fudge gave Lucius Malfoy a tour of the DoM. Malfoy was clearly the leader of the DEs in the battle and knew exactly where to go. Also, wasn't it DE Rookwood that worked at the MoM? We don't know in which department, but he gave the correct info about the prophecy to Voldemort. Avery gave incorrect info and was punished for it.

I think Dumbledore was covering all his bases with the Anti-Disapparation jinx.



Mrs Brisbee - Jun 24, 2005 6:06 am (#1073 of 2970)
I think Dumbledore hit the DEs with the Anti-Disapparating Jinx first thing so that in case they fled the MoM they might still be caught. Bellatrix appeared to be under it and was making for the visitor's entrance to flee when Harry caught up with her in the Atrium. So the jinx could have been a precaution in case the DEs moved into an area they could Apparate from, like the Atrium.



applepie - Jun 24, 2005 9:45 am (#1074 of 2970)
I apologize if this has been brought up before, but surely there are anti-apparation jinxes in the Department of Mysteries. If only the unspeakables are allowed there, I would think that you wouldn't be allowed to apparate into that department. Based on the recent posts, I do think Choices has the best logic of what is allowed.



David Breeze - Jul 26, 2005 12:20 pm (#1075 of 2970)
Edited by Jul 26, 2005 1:20 pm


When re-reading Philosepher's Stone something very odd near the end sticks out like a sore thumb. It is on page 219 on the fourth line down and is something that is spoken by Harry.

At the time Harry was 11 years of age and didn't even have a year worth of magic under his belt. Therefore, It is highly daubtful that Dumbledore would arrange it so that Harry would be the one to foil the attempt to rob the stone.

When it comes to the task of stopping the darkest wizard of all time from returning to power, you do not entrust the job to an eleven year old, even if he is the chosen one. An eleven year old furthermore who DD may not even have trusted anyway (if you consider the changeling hypothesis).

If Dumbledore knew that Voldemort was involved in the plot to steal the stone, why didn't he himself act?

I may be clutching at straws, but it does seems a bit odd.



Madam Pince - Jul 26, 2005 3:21 pm (#1076 of 2970)
David, what is the quote? (You can post it here if it's from "SS" because that's not a spoiler.) I'm assuming you're using the UK version or some other version -- I just looked in my U.S. version and there's nothing on the fourth line on pg. 219 that is even remotely interesting.



David Breeze - Jul 27, 2005 9:33 am (#1077 of 2970)
Madame Pince, Actually, I just wrote the line number so that I wouldn't have to write the whole thing out!

Anyway, here is the extract:

"No, it isn't," said Harry thoughtfully. He's a funny man, Dumbledore. I think he sort of wanted to give me a chance. I think he knows more or less everything that goes on here, you know. I reckon he had a pretty good idea we were going to try, and instead of stopping us, he just taught us enough to help. I don't think it was an accident that he let me find out how the mirror worked. Its almost like he thought I had the right to face Voldemort if I could..."

I think it is highly daubtful that Dumbledore would give Harry this chance. When it comes to the task of stopping the darkest wizard of all time from returning to power, you do not entrust the job to an eleven year old, even if he is the 'chosen one'. An eleven year old, furthermore, who DD may not even have trusted anyway (changeling hypothesis).

If Dumbledore knew that Voldemort was involved in the plot to steal the stone, why didn't he himself act?

As I said, I may be clutching at straws, but it does seems a bit odd.

What do you think?



David Breeze - Jul 27, 2005 10:11 am (#1078 of 2970)
Another thing that strikes me as odd, for totally different reasons, is also in PS/SS.

At the beggining, when we first see Mrs Weasley and her brood, she asks one of her children what the platform number is! Surely she would remember the number from her own time at Hogwarts and from previous visits to King's Cross with her older sons.



Madam Pince - Jul 27, 2005 12:45 pm (#1079 of 2970)
Good observations, David. I agree that it is doubtful that Dumbledore would think it a great idea to set an 11-year old onto Voldemort, even if he was just Vapormort at the time. I have long believed that Dumbledore knows just about all that is going on, so it is odd that he wouldn't suspect Harry of going in search of the Stone. Don't know... maybe it was just literary license. JKR needed the hero to do what he did, so she just wrote it and let the chips fly where they may.

I thought Molly's question was just because she was distracted with all the myriad of details attendant in getting her brood all packed, to the station on time, and on the train. Someone once told me you start losing brain cells once you become a Mom, and I must say it feels true to me sometimes. Plus, it could've been another literary license thing -- JKR needed the characters to say something that would make Harry's ears perk up and notice them, so they mention "muggles" and "Platform 9 3/4" which does the trick.



irish flutterby - Jul 27, 2005 3:01 pm (#1080 of 2970)
After reading the books, I have been going back and listening to "listening Library's" version on CD. (I highly recommend it, by the way)This is a great idea for those of you who, like myself, absorb things as well or better by listening (aural learners). Anyways, I noticed something while listening to GOF again. Out of nowhere at the end of the chapter "Padfoot Returns" JKR says Sirius asked the time and "Harry checked his watch, then remebered it hadn't been working since it had spent over an hour in the lake." Then Hermione says "It's half-past three."

Why even mention it. It could just be good writing, but why even put it there at all. a clue or just me too eager for hints. Though, at what, I couldn't tell you.



Finn BV - Jul 27, 2005 5:50 pm (#1081 of 2970)
David, as Madam Pince says, sometimes people just forget these things. Whenever I had a babysitter come to babysit me, my mom always wrote "Emergency: 911" on the list of important phone numbers, just because she says in panicky times, people aren't sure of anything, and that's something important to know. Still, you're right, it is a little odd.

For your other point, I think that Dumbledore knows that it's Harry's fate to conquer Lord Voldemort, and did he even know Voldemort was in the back of Quirrell in the first place? Did he know that Harry was going to wind up this far? Dumbledore didn't make them do anything; it was all on HRH's free will. I guess?



zelmia - Aug 1, 2005 7:22 pm (#1082 of 2970)
In my own little version of the backstory, Molly gives Ginny the the 'very important job' of remembering the platform number, since Ginny won't be going until next year and is exceedingly disappointed about it. Molly's "Now, what's the platform number?" is therefore addressed to Ginny and not rhetorical. In fact, when I read this section aloud to my young nieces, that is precisely the way I inflect it: as if she is addressing Ginny.
It's really just a little trick that all mothers have up their sleeves to appease the child(ren) who are still too young to participate in what the older ones are doing.



Madam Pince - Aug 1, 2005 7:28 pm (#1083 of 2970)
Oh, Zelmia, I like that idea, too! You are quite right about it being a typical little "mom" trick! It seems very like something Molly would do.



Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 1, 2005 7:40 pm (#1084 of 2970)
David Breeze, perhaps Dunbledore did not originally intend for Harry to face Vapormort. I think that once it became apparent that Harry would attempt to find and prevent the misuse of the Stone, that Dumbledore provided him all the assistance possible. I also, doubt that Dumbledore was certain whether Voldemort was inhabiting Quirrell.



Verity - Aug 3, 2005 6:46 am (#1085 of 2970)
Did anyone else think that it was odd that Dumbledore sent Harry back to the dormitory to retrieve his invisibility cloak in the Seer Overheard chapter? Hadn't Dumbledore instructed Harry to keep the cloak with him at all times? Why would he think that Harry wouldn't have the cloak on him? In fact, I believe that Harry did indeed have the cloak with him, but used it as an excuse to race back to the dormitory to give the Felix potion to Ron and Hermione. Dumbledore always seems so omniscient to me. Do you think he knew all along that Harry had his cloak with him, but purposefully gave him an excuse to go back to the dormitory? Perhaps Dumbledore wasn't as dismissive of Harry's warnings about Draco afterall. Perhaps he suspected some kind of attack on Hogwarts that night and wanted Harry to give the Felix potion to his friends.



Ponine - Aug 3, 2005 2:03 pm (#1086 of 2970)
You know, Verity - I was just reading that today, and thought about it. It says that Harry used the time to get the MM and the Felix, never that he actually grabbed the cloak. This info, in addition to the fact that he had been told to keep it with him at all times did lead me too to believe that he went to fetch a cloak he was already toting. Dumbledore did not even ask Harry if he had it, he sent him off... Was it to say goodbye? For Harry to let RH know, so that the Order would be informed, just in case? to prepare them, like you say? I don't know... this books raises four questions for each answer it gives... ARGH!!



Choices - Aug 3, 2005 5:30 pm (#1087 of 2970)
I just read that today also and was curious. Harry certainly didn't get the cloak when he went back - I believe he had it all along. Either Dumbledore gave Harry a chance to go tell Ron and Hermione what was going on and to give them the Felix and the map, or it was a literary device to allow Harry to give the things to Ron and Hermione before he left with Dumbledore.



Puck - Aug 4, 2005 7:41 am (#1088 of 2970)
Or perhaps DD wanted to give some last minute instructions to Snape or another member of the staff, and did not want Harry around to overhear. (he may have been calling the order members to the castle. How else would they have known to be there that night?) He knew Harry would take the opportunity to go back for a quick word with his friends, and thus sending him back worked to the advantage of both of them.



Mrs. Sirius - Aug 6, 2005 10:37 pm (#1089 of 2970)
Zelmia I do like your take on that line. as a mother I have employed that method often myself.

However, I always took it that either there are other platforms, there are many wizards who do not apparate and therefore need alternate means of transportation or that Molly is really distracted. Between all the muggles, the twins and their practical jokes, Ginny whining on the one side, prefect Percy perfection, and Ronny's first year it's enough to make any mother wacky.



irish flutterby - Aug 7, 2005 3:28 pm (#1090 of 2970)
I know that DD had the utmost trust in Harry, but Harry hasn't always done just as DD has asked, so is it possible that he was just giving Harry the opportunity to get it in the off chance that he hadn't gotten it. Harry, being Harry, took the opportunity to do what he needed to do, but DD could have just been acting as a reasonable adult might.

On the other hand, why not ask Harry if he had it first, why just assume that he didn't. Maybe DD was just REALLY used to Harry disobeying, thus the emphasis on Harry's promise to do EXACTLY as DD says.



Puck - Aug 7, 2005 6:14 pm (#1091 of 2970)
The one thing that's stood out most to me was Ron and Harry talking about how Draco has a Hand of Glory. How do they know? We saw him ask for it in book 2, but his father denied him. Obviously he got it eventually, but how would Ron know? Not exactly the person Draco would tell about it, is he?



irish flutterby - Aug 7, 2005 7:03 pm (#1092 of 2970)
I don't know, I can hear Draco bragging about it at school. It is dark, but I don't think any of the other student's would think it so dark that Draco would need to hide it. He probably was out spouting about it at break one day.



constant vigilance - Aug 7, 2005 10:03 pm (#1093 of 2970)
I find it odd that Pettigrew is said to be itching his arm, the arm with the silver hand. Why mention this? Its not as if we ever hear about characters having hiccups or mosquito bites or other minor immune responses?

To me, Pettigrew's itchy arm might be a signal that flesh and metals do not fuse together agreeably. So, either the hand will have to be removed/fall off, or this will cause an infection that might kill Pettigrew.



The Sword and the Lion - Aug 8, 2005 3:44 pm (#1094 of 2970)
In the CoS, what prevented the ghosts from drifting through the floor and exploring the Chamber of Secerts.

Why was the Bloody-Barron haunting the astronomy tower prior to the Death-Eaters arrival in the HBP.



popkin - Aug 8, 2005 3:51 pm (#1095 of 2970)
constant vigilance, I read that passage the same way you did the first time through - like the arm wasn't working out as well as he originally thought it would; but the second read through I thought he was cradling and fondling his arm - like it was very precious to him.



Choices - Aug 8, 2005 5:28 pm (#1096 of 2970)
The Sword and the Lion - "what prevented the ghosts from drifting through the floor and exploring the Chamber of Secerts'
It would be my guess that Tom Riddle put enchantments and spells on the chamber to keep everyone out, just as he made the entrance not open except for one who spoke Parceltongue. We have never seen or heard of a ghost or Peeves getting into Dumbledore's office - I'm sure there are spells and enchantments to guard against their intrusion there.



Puck - Aug 8, 2005 5:57 pm (#1097 of 2970)
Okay, Riddle's mother- it was stated that if she had used magic she would not have died, but it really bigs me that we are never told HOW she died. I assume some sort of childbirth complication, but how would magic have helped? She was not a healer. If it was just young Tom's assumption that she would have lived if she was a witch, I would put it off to a child's idea that magic is all-powerful. However, DD also says she had a choice, to live or die, just as Harry's Mom had a choice. I was quite bothered at the end of that chapter, that we really didn't have much more information as to the exact circumstances surrounding her death.



Mrs Brisbee - Aug 8, 2005 6:16 pm (#1098 of 2970)
Possibly Dumbledore meant Merope could have gone to St. Mungo's to have her child, and gotten proper care, and the help she needed. But she chose to reject the magic world, and chose the Muggle orphanage as the place to have her child instead. Of course, she seemed pretty destitute at that point, and I don't know how charitable the Wizarding World is. Maybe he just meant she chose to succumb to despair, thereby losing her magic powers.

I've got a question too. I figured "side along Apparition" must be something very difficult and rarely done, us having seen it only once before in OotP when Voldy takes off with Bella. But the MoM sends out their flyer listing it as an emergency measure, Dumbledore Apparates with Harry, and near the end Harry Apparates and takes Dumbledore with him--and Harry himself has only ever been able to Apparate once! So it can't be all that rare and difficult afterall. So why, in OotP, did the Order need to rescue Harry from Privet Drive with an armada of broom riding Order members, and fly all the way to London? Couldn't one person have gone to Privet Drive, and Apparated Harry there in a blink?



constant vigilance - Aug 8, 2005 7:16 pm (#1099 of 2970)
Dumbledore told Harry that underage magic is detected only in non-magical households, because there is no way of knowing the age of the wizard doing the magic in a wizarding home. So if someone from the Order had come and Apparated Harry out of Privet Drive, the Ministry would have observed that magic was happening where it shouldn't be, and they would have looked into it. The Order was operating under too much secrecy to risk such an endeavor.



Susurro Notities - Aug 8, 2005 8:29 pm (#1100 of 2970)
During the advance guard's short stay at Privet Drive Tonks magically packs Harry's trunk, levitates it, and cleans Hedwig's cage. Additionally Moody disillusions Harry. (OotP p. 53-54, US hardcover)

The reason given for not apperating is that Harry is too young. (OotP p. 51, US hardcover)

Certainly the Ministry noted those magical happenings.

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Berty Bott - Aug 9, 2005 6:54 am (#1101 of 2970)
I have another thing that I think was really odd. Remember when Dobby and Kreacher are getting their assignment to tail Draco? Dobby says if he does it wrong he will throw himself from the tallest tower. Does Harry tell them to stop tailing him? I dont think so. So one must assume that they continue to tail him for the rest of the year. Does Dobby think its his fault for not tailing Draco "good enough".....that Draco and the Death Eaters get in? I think its really strange that Dobby threatens to throw himself off of the same tower that Dumbledore eventually gets blasted off of.



TangledWeb - Aug 10, 2005 5:54 pm (#1102 of 2970)
Apologies if this has already been asked...but In COS, Nearly Headless Nick is petrified. How is the antidote administered to him if he is a ghost?



zelmia - Aug 10, 2005 5:58 pm (#1103 of 2970)
Some sort of atomized spray, I think is what they came up with for that one.



Mrs Brisbee - Aug 10, 2005 7:09 pm (#1104 of 2970)
In HBP McGonagall sends Flitwick to fetch Snape once the DEs have invaded the castle. Why didn't she just send a Patronus message to Snape instead? That's how the Order are supposed to communicate in emergencies, right?



Amilia Smith - Aug 10, 2005 7:51 pm (#1105 of 2970)
Maybe she was having trouble thinking happy thoughts at the time?

Mills.



Choices - Aug 11, 2005 9:00 am (#1106 of 2970)
"Nearly Headless Nick is petrified. How is the antidote administered to him if he is a ghost?"

At Nick's Death Day Party, the putrid (for more pungent flavor) food is laid out and the ghosts simply "pass through" the food since they can actually eat it. I think the mandrake remedy is done the same way - it is "passed through" Nick and he absorbs it that way.



irish flutterby - Aug 11, 2005 4:04 pm (#1107 of 2970)
"..near the end Harry Apparates and takes Dumbledore with him--and Harry himself has only ever been able to Apparate once!"

I think we can all agree that Harry surprises himself with the extent of his magical ability. Most grow wizards have trouble conjurring a Patronous, but he can. It's possible that when he really is concentrating, he is able to do it. I must admit, after reading that, I wondered when listening to other books, "Why didn't they just......"

Why didn't Mcgonagall send her Patronous? Maybe, with DE's all around, she didn't want them to know how the Order communicates.

RE; the Bloody Baron, maybe he was patrolling, looking for DD for the DE's. OOO, a bad ghost. Never heard of that.

I have asked this question on another thread, and here may not be the place to as either, but, here goes.....Will the picture of DD in the headmaster's office have a memory. Phineas Nigelus does, so couldn't the picture tell whomever needed to know whether Snape was good or bad?



Mrs Brisbee - Aug 11, 2005 4:36 pm (#1108 of 2970)
Why didn't Mcgonagall send her Patronous? Maybe, with DE's all around, she didn't want them to know how the Order communicates. --Brandi Harvey

That's a plausible explanation, but I'm wondering if Fake Moody wouldn't have seen Dumbledore's Patronus messenger in GoF already.

I have asked this question on another thread, and here may not be the place to as either, but, here goes.....Will the picture of DD in the headmaster's office have a memory. Phineas Nigelus does, so couldn't the picture tell whomever needed to know whether Snape was good or bad?

I think it could, but the headmaster portraits are bound to help the current headmaster. There isn't one at the moment, and McGonagall is foolishly talking about closing the school! The Governors might not appoint a new headmaster if the school is to close, or if the school is to reopen they could appoint someone besides McGonagall or any of the current teachers. The Dumbledore portrait would then have to aid whoever was the new headmaster.



Abracapocus - Aug 11, 2005 4:43 pm (#1109 of 2970)
Brandi Harvey ? Whether true or not, I think Dumbledore?s portrait would probably give Harry Dumbledore?s standard answer regarding Snape because Dumbledore believed it so strongly in life. That?s just my opinion though.

The following is a quote from J K Rowling at the Edinburgh Book Festival.

?All the paintings we have seen at Hogwarts are of dead people. They seem to be living through their portraits. How is this so? If there was a painting of Harry?s parents, would he be able to obtain advice from them??

?That is a very good question. They are all of dead people; they are not as fully realised as ghosts, as you have probably noticed. The place where you see them really talk is in Dumbledore?s office, primarily; the idea is that the previous headmasters and headmistresses leave behind a faint imprint of themselves. They leave their aura, almost, in the office and they can give some counsel to the present occupant, but it is not like being a ghost. They repeat catchphrases, almost. The portrait of Sirius? mother is not a very 3D personality; she is not very fully realised. She repeats catchphrases that she had when she was alive. If Harry had a portrait of his parents it would not help him a great deal. If he could meet them as ghosts, that would be a much more meaningful interaction, but as Nick explained at the end of Phoenix?I am straying into dangerous territory, but I think you probably know what he explained?there are some people who would not come back as ghosts because they are unafraid, or less afraid, of death.?



Choices - Aug 11, 2005 5:09 pm (#1110 of 2970)
Why didn't Mcgonagall send her Patronous?

That is a good question and I wish I had a good answer. All I have is another question - what good is a means of communication if you can't use it in front of the enemy? Isn't that precisely when you need it most - to call for help?



Puck - Aug 11, 2005 6:23 pm (#1111 of 2970)
But what would a patronus have shown him, exactly? It would have alerted him to a problem, yes, but likely is not able to give details. Kind of like the "Bat Signal", it alerts you to trouble, but no specifics. So, by sending Flitwick, Snape could have exact information as to what was happening.

It was stated that Harry was able to do extraordinary magic when concentrating. (patronus, side-along-apparition). I think it's the opposite. He does his best magic when not he doesn't over think it, but goes with his gut.

Thanks for the quote about the portaits. I guess we'll have to rely on the pensieve for any true information.



Homorphous - Aug 12, 2005 12:27 am (#1112 of 2970)
Who is guarding the prisoners at Azkabhan now that the dementors are no longer there? It must be much more pleasant for Lucius Malfoy to be there without dementors.

Puck: in answer to how Merope died, odds on she had a post-partum haemorrhage since she died within an hour of birth. PPH was and still is a common cause of maternal mortality, obviously she was so depressed that she didn't used her magical powers to stop the life eking away from her.



irish flutterby - Aug 12, 2005 3:51 am (#1113 of 2970)
"I think it's the opposite. He does his best magic when not he doesn't over think it, but goes with his gut."

Yes, you ar right! I completely ammend my earlier statement.



Puck - Aug 12, 2005 4:35 am (#1114 of 2970)
Thanks Homorphous! I was assuming that she did by from some kind of hemorage post partum, but never understood why the all assumed she could have stopped it. If any witch/wizard could perform such spells, why would they need healers? I doubt Merope was highly educated, as they referred to her as a squib around the house. I'm guessing she had to learn things on the fly.



LooneyLuna - Aug 12, 2005 5:16 am (#1115 of 2970)
Personally, I think Merope died of a broken heart. She lived long enough to have her son, but didn't want to raise him without the father and probably thought the son would be better off without her. She didn't exactly have a wonderful childhood.



Choices - Aug 12, 2005 5:49 pm (#1116 of 2970)
We know Madame Pomfrey can heal severe nosebleeds, so perhaps all women learn some spells for household injuries, especially those who live out in the country and are not near a hospital or healer. Merope probably could have stopped her hemorrhage if she had used magic, but she didn't and she died. I'm sure her heart was broken, but I don't think that is what killed her.



zelmia - Aug 12, 2005 7:02 pm (#1117 of 2970)
Merope was also, if my understanding of her situation is correct, extremely malnourished. Perhaps her body simply had no more strength left.



The Sword and the Lion - Aug 12, 2005 8:21 pm (#1118 of 2970)
Ok, this has always bugged me so please feel free to add your clarification on the issue:

At the end of PoA, Trelany makes a prediction that "servant will be united with master and the Dark Lord will rise again, more powerful and terrible than before" (paraphrased). At the end of the OotP, Dumbledore tells Harry that if Voldemort were ever to return to full power, Dumbledore's most powerful defensive magic would be rendered useless against Voldemort. To get to the point, how can Voldemort return more powerful than he was before when 1) he will most likely be slain or incapacitated for all time in the next book 2) two of Lord Voldemort's Horcruxes are presumably destroyed ...

Unless Voldemort has been eating his Wheaties, I can't quite see him being more powerful than he was prior to his initial downfall at Godric's Hollow. =)



The giant squid - Aug 12, 2005 10:53 pm (#1119 of 2970)
The Sword and the Lion: We've all interpreted Trelawny's prediction to refer to Pettigrew returning to Voldemort's service and his "rebirth" in the graveyard in GoF. The "before" refers to the condition he was in at the time of the prophecy.

Of course, we could be way off base and there's more to come, but that's the beauty of prophecies...they can be interpreted all sorts of ways.

--Mike



Sparrowhawk - Aug 13, 2005 12:48 am (#1120 of 2970)
This may have to do with the advantage of a soul split in 7 parts, and explain why Voldemort settled for the death of the muggle Frank Bryce and the turning of Nagini into a Horcrux, early in GoF. He knew that this would indeed make him more powerful than ever... but he failed, because Tom's diary had already been destroyed (hence his anger when he learnt about it later).

Now, with DD out of the way, it looks as if Voldemort will go back to his plan (not knowing that Marvolo's ring is already destroyed), and I bet that this time he'll want to use Gryffindor's sword, combined with Harry's murder...



Herm oh ninny - Aug 13, 2005 3:22 pm (#1121 of 2970)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that the Horcruxes make Voldie more powerful. They just make him harder to kill, but they don't make his actual powers any stonger, do they?



Sparrowhawk - Aug 13, 2005 3:55 pm (#1122 of 2970)
As a matter of fact, generally speaking you are right, but JKR has made it clear that the splitting of a soul in 7 parts is something unique to Voldemort, in the wizarding world that she has created. I tend to believe that Voldemort had some specific reason why he wanted to get 6 Horcruxes + himself, no more, no less... Of course it is pure speculation on my part, but I don't think that the reason was purely symbolic. Even his very short conversation with Slughorn shows how important Voldemort finds this figure 7.



Herm oh ninny - Aug 13, 2005 4:00 pm (#1123 of 2970)
I just assumed that he wanted to make more because that would make him all the harder to kill. I mean, it would be hard enough to find one Horcrux, but to have to go looking for 6! Voldie probably assumed that no one would ever be able to do it, thus making him invincible. However, Jo has stated that 7 is a magical number, so I think that your ideas definitely have merit. Hmmmm... I guess we'll have to wait and find out



LooneyLuna - Aug 13, 2005 4:02 pm (#1124 of 2970)
Here's the text of Trelawney's prediction (PoA, Chapter 16, Professor Trelawney's Prediction):

"The Dark Lord lies alone and friendless, abandoned by his followers. His servant has been chained these twelve years. Tonight, before midnight....the servant will break free and set out to rejoin his master. The Dark Lord will rise again with his servant's aid, greater and more terrible than he ever was. Tonight... before midnight...the servant...will set out...to rejoin... his master....."

Greater and more terrible does not necessarily mean more powerful. Voldemort is already a powerful wizard, so for him to be more powerful doesn't make much sense. I think more terrible because he is less human. Greater because he is more dangerous. He's obsessed with Harry and the prophecy.

Just my two knuts.



Choices - Aug 13, 2005 5:36 pm (#1125 of 2970)
Looney - "Greater and more terrible does not necessarily mean more powerful. Voldemort is already a powerful wizard, so for him to be more powerful doesn't make much sense. I think more terrible because he is less human. Greater because he is more dangerous. He's obsessed with Harry and the prophecy."

I agree.



irish flutterby - Aug 15, 2005 3:35 am (#1126 of 2970)
"We know Madame Pomfrey can heal severe nosebleeds, so perhaps all women learn some spells for household injuries, especially those who live out in the country and are not near a hospital or healer. Merope probably could have stopped her hemorrhage if she had used magic, but she didn't and she died. I'm sure her heart was broken, but I don't think that is what killed her."

I think you're both right. I think her broken heart is what kept her from healing herself, therefore, she died as a result of not using her powers which was a result of her broken heart.



veil 26 - Aug 15, 2005 1:37 pm (#1127 of 2970)
Harry, Ron and Hermione are discussing whether one has to be a pure-blood wizard in order to be a DeathEater. Hermione points out that there aren't all that many purebloods, and that the DeathEaters accept less-than-pure-blood wizards, and then says to Ron and Harry: "They'd be happy to get either one of you." This makes no sense with regard to Ron, because he is a pure-blood wizard.



irish flutterby - Aug 15, 2005 3:36 pm (#1128 of 2970)
I think, if I'm reading your post, and remembering correctly, Ron is making a point about their talent and/or skill and his lack thereof, and that he believes the DE's would find either Harry or Hermione very useful tools, while he might not be such.



Choices - Aug 15, 2005 5:28 pm (#1129 of 2970)
"They'd be happy to get either one of you."...........

Perhaps she meant they would be happy to get Ron because he is a pure blood and Harry because of his magical ability.



irish flutterby - Aug 16, 2005 4:34 am (#1130 of 2970)
Sorry I misunderstood who was speaking. Yes, i agree. But on the same note, Maybe it is that as both of Harry's parents were wizards, he would be pure enough.

Also, I had a thought. After Sirius died, HArry went to Nearly Headless Nick and asked about ghosts. Nick said that only wizards could be ghosts, but that very few choose that path, as thought it has to be a concious decision. But Moaning Myrtle was young and probably caught off gaurd by dying. how could she have had time or known how to choose that path?



Sparrowhawk - Aug 16, 2005 6:32 am (#1131 of 2970)
Hi Irish flutterby,

It is probably something that one decides right after dying, not beforehand, when there is still uncertainty as to what happens next: do you get scared and decide to go back and prolongate your life as a shadow, a mere ghost, or do you face the unknown, pluck up your courage and cross the threshold, ready for "the next great adventure"?



Herm oh ninny - Aug 16, 2005 10:55 am (#1132 of 2970)
Actually, I believe that Myrtlre tells us that she decided to stay because she was determined to haunt Olive Hornsby.



The giant squid - Aug 16, 2005 11:46 pm (#1133 of 2970)
Herm oh ninny, you're right, but what Sparrowhawk is saying is that the decision to haunt Olive took place in the instant she died as opposed to something planned or even contemplated while alive. In Myrtle's case, she was so young and was caught off guard that I believe she became a ghost much like Prof. Binns--she didn't realize she was dead until the moment had passed & she was stuck. She was in the bathroom because Olive had made fun of her glasses, and at the moment the basilisk killed her she was probably thinking, "I'd really like to get back at her!" Thus, ghost.

--Mike



Sparrowhawk - Aug 17, 2005 2:44 am (#1134 of 2970)
Thank you giant squid,

This is exactly what I meant. I also think that, in the case of Myrtle and Binns, they were more concerned than most people by the petty details of their own daily life, and somehow right after dying they failed to notice the threshold, didn't cross it and came back as ghosts, having missed the opportunity to embark for the "next great adventure".



The giant squid - Aug 17, 2005 12:07 pm (#1135 of 2970)
Thank you giant squid, This is exactly what I meant.--Sparrowhawk

A rare moment of clarity on my part. They don't happen often, so I felt the need to make use of it. You're welcome.



irish flutterby - Aug 17, 2005 2:41 pm (#1136 of 2970)
What a terribly depressing thought. What a major "Oops" in the life (well at the end of it) of a wizard. Oh gee, darn, I meant to die. I really did. I just missed it.



imprint of a departed soul - Aug 18, 2005 4:09 am (#1137 of 2970)
I find it a bit odd that Dumbledore didn't try tipping the potion protecting the horcrux on the ground.




irish flutterby - Aug 18, 2005 4:27 am (#1138 of 2970)
I still think it's ridiculus that he didn't "Aguamente" the stuff from the start. It worked when Harry did it, why would it not have worked just to point your wand at the basin and try turning it into water. Then it won't hurt you if you drink it.

DUH!



irish flutterby - Aug 18, 2005 5:26 am (#1139 of 2970)
on another point. I just heard Fudge say he was junior minister in the department of magical catastrophies. I guess it's more funny, then odd. But, I think its funny that he used to cover up catastrophies, and as minister, he was sort of doing the same thing. Covering up catastrophies both that he created, and that he allowed.



Detail Seeker - Aug 21, 2005 2:39 am (#1140 of 2970)
irish flutterby, I have read about an american student dying from I do not find the reference now, but if my memory serves me right, he drank about 10 litres. So ,even drinking much water alone can kill you



irish flutterby - Aug 21, 2005 6:20 am (#1141 of 2970)
yeah, but when Harry tried to turn the liquid to water, it disappeared. DD wouldn't have had to drink anything. it just would have vanished, then they could've taken the locket out with no problem.



Sparrowhawk - Aug 21, 2005 7:50 am (#1142 of 2970)
Indeed, it looks like JKR forgot to write that DD tried to tip the potion on the ground, but every time it flew back in the basin. But that doesn't change the main problem, which was that, in order to reach the locket, he couldn't get rid of the potion unless he drank it. As to changing it into water, I think that he mentioned that it couldn't be transformed...



irish flutterby - Aug 21, 2005 2:21 pm (#1143 of 2970)
Forgive me, I'm apparently a bit thick at the moment. Did DD have to first drink it, then Harry could eliminate it by "aguament"? I just can't figure why they didn't dip some out, "Aguamente", the water would disappear, then repeat till the stuff was gone and they could get the locket? forgive. I didn't read that it actually had to be embibed, just that it had to be removed from the basin with the cup.



Puck - Aug 21, 2005 2:41 pm (#1144 of 2970)
I don't think Harry transformed the potion. The basin was basically empty by that time, so he simply tried to produce water from his wand, same as he and Hagrid did when putting out his hut.



The giant squid - Aug 22, 2005 12:42 am (#1145 of 2970)
Puck, that's how I read it too. DD had already drunk all of the potion and was asking for water. Harry tried to cast aquamente into the cup but all the water vanished. Finally he dipped the cup into the inferi pool and fed that to DD.

I figured there's an enchantment that keeps outside liquids from interfering with the potion, the same way that only the cup would enter the basin.

--Mike



Choices - Aug 22, 2005 8:02 am (#1146 of 2970)
I agree and I wonder if by keeping anyone from being able to produce water to drink, it forced them to use the lake water and that had some effect on the potion that had been consumed? Voldemort knew that drinking the potion would make the drinker thirsty - they couldn't produce water with a spell, so they were forced to drink the lake water and that somehow activates the potion to change - perhaps that causes it to start slowly killing the drinker? There must be some reason JKR put that in - of course, it did cause the Inferi to come up out of the lake, but did it also cause the potion inside Dumbledore to change in some way?



haymoni - Aug 22, 2005 8:05 am (#1147 of 2970)
Harry must have been pretty desperate to give Dumbledore the Inferi-flavored water!

Especially with all of Dumbledore's warnings not to touch it.



irish flutterby - Aug 22, 2005 8:31 am (#1148 of 2970)
Duh, I get it now. I was misunderstanding the aguamente spell. Wow, I'm feeling like a first year Gryffindor in Snape's Double Potions class.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 22, 2005 9:28 am (#1149 of 2970)
I was thinking along the same lines Choices, except I figure the water in the lake is actually the Drought of Living Death. The potion itself, as DD says, "Undoubtedly," he said, finally, "this potion must act in a way that will prevent me taking the Horcrux." If the wizard did not give in to the torments of the potion (for lack of a better phrase), then the water from the lake would keep him alive until LV was able to find out how his defenses were penetrated. ""Lord Voldemort would not want to kill the person who reached this island." and "I'm sorry, Harry; I should have said, he would not want to immediately kill the person who reached this island," Dumbledore corrected himself. "He would want to keep them alive long enough to find out how they managed to penetrate so far through his defenses and, most importantly of all, why they were so intent upon emptying the basin. Do not forget that Lord Voldemort believes that he alone knows about his Horcruxes."

I think any disturbance at the edge of the water would trigger the majority of the Inferi into action. Remember Dumbledore telling Harry, several times, "Be very careful not to step into the water."

One would also think that the DoLD would be the ideal solution to keep the Inferi from, er, decomposing further?

...toddles off to find something for this headache I just gave myself...



zelmia - Aug 22, 2005 5:01 pm (#1150 of 2970)
I thought Draught of the Living Death was a sleeping potion...

Yes, it seems pretty clear that it was the disturbance of the water itself, and not the dipping of the Potion-coated bowl, that aroused the Inferi to attack Harry. We have to remember that Dumbledore is very old and has likely seen a great deal more than he lets on.

He seemed remarkably certain of what had to be done in order to retrieve the Horcrux from the bowl. What I am wondering is whether or not he already knew that it had been replaced with a fake one. In retrospect, that almost seems to be the case.

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Choices - Aug 22, 2005 5:32 pm (#1151 of 2970)
I tend to think that if Dumbledore knew it was fake, he would have told Harry immediately, so that Harry would know that he needed to find the real one and not waste time with the fake. After all, it was not until Harry picked it up from beside Dumbledore's "body" and opened it that he knew someone else had the real horcrux and the one he was holding was a fake. I don't think Dumbledore was in any condition (or had the time) to examine it and determine it wasn't the real thing.



Miss Malaprop - Aug 22, 2005 6:57 pm (#1152 of 2970)
I thought it was odd that R.A.B. substituted the locket at all. The note implied that he/she expected Voldemort alone to access the locket, so why bother replacing it with a fake when Voldemort would know it was the wrong one?

I also found it strange that Bill could access Harry's bank vault without Harry even knowing. Even as a Gringott's employee and friend of Harry's it seems very wrong!



irish flutterby - Aug 24, 2005 12:44 pm (#1153 of 2970)
I found it strange that Sirius, at that piont the first or second most wanted wizard in the world, was able to get into his own vault to get the Galleons to buy Harry that Firebolt in PoA.

Like no one in Grongott's went, "Hey that's that guy that is laughing maniacally in the poster on the front door."

or "Hey how did a big black dog get a vault here. I thought this place was only for wizards."



LooneyLuna - Aug 24, 2005 5:20 pm (#1154 of 2970)
Sirius placed the order via owl post and had the store take the money out of his vault. A simple bank transfer via letter.



irish flutterby - Aug 24, 2005 5:27 pm (#1155 of 2970)
Thank you. I had been wondering that since about nineteen-ninety-something.



Finn BV - Aug 24, 2005 6:47 pm (#1156 of 2970)
"Hey that's that guy that is laughing maniacally in the poster on the front door." --irish flutterby

Well, they are goblins, you know. LOL. I had forgotten that detail and was also wondering about it.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 24, 2005 8:35 pm (#1157 of 2970)
Seems odd to me that some members haven't read and memorized books 1-5, LOL



haymoni - Aug 25, 2005 3:19 am (#1158 of 2970)
I'm sorry, but even if the request came at owl post, didn't somebody think it strange that Sirius Black, who should be wasting away at Azkaban, was requesting such a large sum of money?

Firebolts are expensive. I think if anyone was paying any attention at all, they might have thought he was trying to bribe someone at the Ministry to let him out.

I don't think they have candy machines at Azkaban. Whatever would he have needed that money for?

I guess the goblins don't really care and might not have notified the Ministry of the activity on his account on purpose.



Abracapocus - Aug 25, 2005 3:50 am (#1159 of 2970)
I could be wrong, but I didn't think goblins had a very good relationship with witches and wizards anyway.



Steve Newton - Aug 25, 2005 5:04 am (#1160 of 2970)
haymoni, I get the impression that if Satan had a valid money order they would pay it no question. They seem to worry about money, not morals.



haymoni - Aug 25, 2005 5:11 am (#1161 of 2970)
Yes - I have to forget what would happen in our world.

Accounts are frozen. Credit cards are watched.

I don't think the goblins care - although they don't seem to mind help from curse-breakers like Bill!



Berty Bott - Aug 25, 2005 6:44 am (#1162 of 2970)
Ok. A while back I made a reference to the fact that Dobby told Harry that he would "throw himself from the highest tower" if he didnt watch/tail Malfoy correctly. Then Dumbledor gets thrown from that tower. I think thats realllllllly weird and significant in some way. So Ive been reflecting on the similarities between Dumbledor and Dobby. First, they both inadvertantly harm Harry when they are trying to protect him. Second, though it seems a small detail I think its important......they both LOVE socks. Can anyone else think of ways they are connected?



irish flutterby - Aug 25, 2005 7:18 am (#1163 of 2970)
"First, they both inadvertantly harm Harry when they are trying to protect him."

Refresh my memory, are you referring to DD not telling Harry about the prophecy?

Thanks Haymoni. You have asserted the point that I had forgotten: Do the goblins just not care?



Steve Newton - Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am (#1164 of 2970)
The goblins care vary much......about money.



Snuffles - Aug 25, 2005 7:30 am (#1165 of 2970)
That's true Steve, as Ludo found out in OOTP!!



Berty Bott - Aug 25, 2005 7:45 am (#1166 of 2970)
Yes, as that certainly ends up causing some anguish (Sirius death) and also, when he is placed with the Dursleys, DD is trying to protect him yet he is also subjected to neglect, possible abuse becaue of this.



LooneyLuna - Aug 25, 2005 10:20 am (#1167 of 2970)
Regarding Sirius' money order. I liken the Goblins to Swiss Bankers. Discrete about their customers' business transactions and aloof to their customers' foibles.



Steve Newton - Aug 25, 2005 10:24 am (#1168 of 2970)
But only a goblin would call 13 murders foibles.



LooneyLuna - Aug 25, 2005 10:26 am (#1169 of 2970)
Exactly, Steve. Smile



Mrs Brisbee - Aug 25, 2005 10:29 am (#1170 of 2970)
Sirius Black, covicted foibler.



irish flutterby - Aug 25, 2005 12:29 pm (#1171 of 2970)
"Oops. Did I just blow up a city street and kill 13 people. Darn. I really need to stop being so twitchy with my wand hand." - Sirius



timrew - Aug 25, 2005 2:34 pm (#1172 of 2970)
haymoni:- I don't think the goblins care - although they don't seem to mind help from curse-breakers like Bill!

You got a big bank account, you can do what you like. It's always been the way since banks came into existence.........



irish flutterby - Aug 26, 2005 2:56 am (#1173 of 2970)
I can think of a few recent murder trials that prove that, but back to the point.

How far is the astronomy tower from everything else. Is it odd that no one heard the battle going on?



zelmia - Aug 26, 2005 5:16 pm (#1174 of 2970)
I actually got the impression that a lot of people heard what was going on. Weren't some of the older students helping out?



irish flutterby - Aug 26, 2005 6:51 pm (#1175 of 2970)
I can't remember and my books not with me. (Shock!)

I thought it was only a few of the DA and the Order and some teachers.



Ydnam96 - Aug 26, 2005 9:01 pm (#1176 of 2970)
I think it was just McGonagal, Flitwick (although he was stunned in Snape's office), Tonks, Hagrid?, Sprout?

Neville, Ron, Ginny, Luna, and Hermione were the only students who helped.



Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 26, 2005 9:35 pm (#1177 of 2970)
Ydnam96, Remus and Bill Weasley were also there because Bill was injured while fighting with Greyback.



veil 26 - Aug 27, 2005 7:31 pm (#1178 of 2970)
Near the end of "Silver and Opals" HRH and Leanne are approaching the school and see Prof. McGonagall hurrying down the stone steps to meet them. McGonagall has already spoken to Hagrid (who brought Katie to the castle) and must suspect that Katie was somehow touched by dark magic (given Katie's condition and how worried Hogwarts is about dark magic these days) and McGonagall knows HRH and Leanne were with Katie or near her when it happened (because Hagrid told her so). McGonagall takes the necklace (which Harry tells her Katie touched) and looking alarmed utters "Good lord" and then:

"'No, no, Filch, they're with me!' she added hastily, as Filch came shuffling eagerly across the entrance hall holding his Secrecy Sensor aloft."

She's telling Filch not to search HRH and Leanne for traces of dark magic.

WHY ON EARTH SHOULDN'T FILCH SEARCH THOSE STUDENTS FOR DARK MAGIC???

Filch SHOULD search them--no one's yet sure exactly what happened to Katie, and this lot was with her. God knows what they could have touched or been affected by. If McGonagall is annoyed by Filch's zeal for pestering students, she can easily monitor the sensor procedure. Just because HRH and Leanne are at that moment "with [McGonagall]" does not make them suddenly antiseptic, and we have no evidence that McGonagall can simply sniff out dark magic conclusively all by herself.



irish flutterby - Aug 28, 2005 9:53 am (#1179 of 2970)
I'm missing your point.



zelmia - Aug 28, 2005 11:52 am (#1180 of 2970)
Veil, I think it's because it was pretty clear that Harry and Leanne were not affected by the same Curse that had obviously harmed Katie. McGonagall has not only been teaching a long time, but she is also an accomplished member of the Order. She likely can spot the effects of a Curse a mile away - at least with regard to people she knows well.



irish flutterby - Aug 28, 2005 6:55 pm (#1181 of 2970)
I'm still confused. Is the question whether or not HH or Leanne migh thave been under Imperius? Or is it whether they might have come under some Dark magic from the necklace. I think she could tell if the necklace had caused some damage, because they would have been in the same state as Katie. I think McGonagal may have known the necklace, at least by reputaion.



Abracapocus - Aug 28, 2005 7:37 pm (#1182 of 2970)
I understand Veil 26's concerns and find them valid. Wasn't Filch's job to search everyone before entering the castle? Just because the students didn't appear to be affected by the same curse as Katie Bell, Filch still should have followed protocol set by Dumbledore. McGonagall should not have changed it. I wondered about that the first time I read it.

Twice in HBP, McGonagall seemed to be slightly out-of-character by going against Dumbledore's orders. The second time was when she interrogated Harry about where he he had gone with Dumbledore. If McGonagall knew that Dumbledore trusted Harry enough to take Harry with him, she should have trusted that Harry was both telling the truth and following Dumbledore's orders by not telling anyone. Again, it seemed odd that she continued to press the issue.



irish flutterby - Aug 29, 2005 11:31 am (#1183 of 2970)
I think perhaps in that instance, McGonagall was doing everything she could to find out what was going on because DD was not telling ANYBODY ANYTHING. McGonagall, like a good 2nd was getting concerned for the welfare of her "captain", her student, the Order and the Mission. Minerva felt that the information might be valid to understand the entire situation. (she was right, by the way) Even DD might not be above an underhanded Imperius stuck from behind. If his behavior was beginning to seem odd, it is her job to be suspect for the good of the students, staff, and mission. If his odd behavior led to his death, then she was right in being susoect, and needed to be informed so that she could take the appropriate steps.

As far as the Filch thing, I thin she was in a hurry. Filch would have taken his sweet (or rather bitter) time in trying to find something to hold them on. They didn't have time for that. She needed to get all the info, get it quickly. If something underhanded was going on, by the way, Filch might not have made any bones about speading the word around, even if he didn't know the whole situation.



haymoni - Aug 29, 2005 12:11 pm (#1184 of 2970)
I wonder if Minerva felt some need or some sense of duty to take over (and I mean that in a good way) EVERYTHING that Dumbledore was involved in - not just Head of Hogwarts.

Maybe she was concerned about the Order - she had to have known that Dumbledore was gone a lot. What was he working on?

Is it something she should be concerned about as Headmistress?

Nobody wants to be kept in the dark - Harry should understand that.



Abracapocus - Aug 29, 2005 3:48 pm (#1185 of 2970)
I absolutely love McGonagall. I think that is why her side-stepping Dumbledore's orders struck me as odd. Not earth-shattering, just odd.

After Harry told McGonagall about his suspicions about Draco she said, "--and in any case, we have put stringent security measures in place this year. I do not believe that necklace can possibly have entered this school without our knowledge--" In her haste to get to the bottom of the Katie Bell issue, she herself compromised the stringent security measures.

I am not saying that I think anything happened because of this, but it is possible that due to McGonagall's security breach, someone could have brought something into the castle without anyone being aware of it.

I also find this exchange slightly odd:

"The headmaster is away until Monday, Potter", said McGonagall, looking surprised.

"Away?" Harry repeated angrily.

"Yes, Potter, away!" said Professor McGonagall tartly, "But anything you have to say about this horrible business can be said to me, I'm sure!"

For a split second, Harry hesitated. Professor McGonagall did not invite confidences..." Bold mine.

Did she feel Harry was dismissing her authority as Deputy Headmistress in Dumbledore's absence? She seemed shocked/angry that he didn't want to confide in her.

I am no writer, but I would have expected something more like this: "Yes, Potter, away! And in his absence, I am responsible for the students in this school so explain to me what you know about this!"



irish flutterby - Aug 29, 2005 4:39 pm (#1186 of 2970)
On the other hand, McGonagall is probably a bit touchy about her role in the school. She is, after all, in charge in DD's absence. Do-Do Umbridge made it hard enough for her to do her job. She's probably, I would venture to say, jut tired in general. She is no spring chicken. She's been through one war with LV, and she knows what to expect. She is touchy, but eveyone is one edge.

She's also had to deal with Harry "needing to speak with DD." on several occasions, and knows, more often than not, that what Harry has to say DD already know. Maybe she was hoping to reassure Harry. She almost always begins her conversations with Harry in a very sharp manner, but by the end, she usually softens. I do, however, agree that it's odd.



irish flutterby - Aug 29, 2005 4:45 pm (#1187 of 2970)
On another note, when Slughorn saw DD's hand for the first time he said, "Reactions not what they were, I see." It almost sounds as if he recognized that type of injury. Was it common, or did Horace know more than he let on?



zelmia - Aug 29, 2005 6:26 pm (#1188 of 2970)
"McGonagall did not invite confidences." Harry cannot stop seeing McGonagall solely as an authority figure, a teacher, as opposed to an ally and fellow member of the Order. It is his own prejudice that prevents him from confiding in her.

In OP he tried to confide in McGonagall about Umbridge, and McGonagall - in Harry's mind - did nothing but acquiesce. He didn't understand the politics of that situation. He is responding to that memory here, probably feeling it best to say nothing to anyone but Dumbledore, since he isn't sure what the consequences of telling someone else - even McGonagall - might be.



Puck - Aug 29, 2005 7:20 pm (#1189 of 2970)
Also, in SS Harry tells McGonagall (since DD is away) that someone is going to steal the stone, and she dismisses him. We all know that if Harry hadn't gone after it....

So, I can see him leary to tell her.

Obviously something had happened to DD to turn his hand black. I doubt Slughorn knew at the time what caused it, just the DD wasn't quick enough to stop it. Though, after seeing the ring and being asked for a memory about Horcruxes he may have figured it out.



Sparrowhawk - Aug 30, 2005 4:23 am (#1190 of 2970)
Puck, if Harry hadn't gone after the stone, nothing would have happened, because Quirrell/Voldemort would have been utterly unable to solve the Erised mirror enigma and get the stone... DD was very proud of that specific idea of his, and rightly so IMO



Puck - Aug 30, 2005 5:00 am (#1191 of 2970)
Yes, but Harry WAS right about someone going down there, and was dismissed out of hand by McGonagall. Mr. Weasley had already politely told Harry not to worry about Draco. Hmmm, do you think the other Order members knew about Malfoy? I mean, they all seemed to put Harry off, but the did look into things after talking to him.



haymoni - Aug 30, 2005 5:21 am (#1192 of 2970)
I think it is more of the "don't go looking for trouble" bit that we saw with Sirius Black.

They know Harry is important. They know they have to keep him safe. Why trouble yourself with some punk like Draco?



zelmia - Aug 30, 2005 5:47 am (#1193 of 2970)
I actually find it odd that no one BUT Harry seemed to take Draco's "mission" at all seriously. The Order knew that Lucius was in Azkaban - they put him there, after all. Why did they not think that Voldemort would want to punish him for all his failures? I mean, the Order seemed to have a very lacadaisacal attitude about the situation: there is a War on, and this young man (Draco) is the son of a high-ranking Death Eater. But when Harry suggests that the Order should be aware of what Draco is doing, Harry gets little more than a pat on the head and a "run along now, my lad".

They also knew that, in spite of his all mouth and trousers attitude, that Draco is actually on a par with Harry in strengths and talent. However, unlike Harry, Draco seems to have been much more successful in his Occlumency instruction - which the Order could not have known at the time, obivously. Again, why dismiss Harry's concerns out of hand? Why do the Order not at least look into what Draco may be up to, if for no other reason than to put Harry's mind to rest?



Mrs Brisbee - Aug 30, 2005 5:56 am (#1194 of 2970)
That bugged me too, zelmia. If they were paying attention, and just didn't want Harry's interference, brushing him off was the wrong way to get him to lay off. They should know by past experience that Harry will pursue it on his own if no one listens to him.



Abracapocus - Aug 30, 2005 10:16 am (#1195 of 2970)
Agreed. Ignoring or patronizing him is the sure-fire way to make certain that he takes it upon himself to handle the very thing they dismiss. I would think someone, especially Dumbledore, would have figured that out by now.



Madam Pince - Aug 30, 2005 1:39 pm (#1196 of 2970)
Well, Dumbledore said he knew all along that Draco was trying to kill him, but he couldn't confront Draco about it because he knew Voldemort was such a good Legilimens that he would instantly know that Draco had been discovered, and would murder Draco at once. (HBP "Lightning-Struck Tower") That's why Dumbledore held back. Perhaps Dumbledore reassured the other Order members so they'd leave Draco alone too. It seemed paramount to Dumbledore that Draco have no idea that anyone was "onto" him, so that Voldemort would likewise have no idea.

Order member: "Hey, maybe we should be looking into that Malfoy boy?"

Dumbledore: "Do not trouble yourself -- I have already spoken to Draco personally and I assure you that it requires no further investigation."

The Order seem to follow Dumbledore's orders implicitly. Of course, this scenario is total speculation but it could explain the question.



Madam Pince - Aug 30, 2005 1:57 pm (#1197 of 2970)
OK, here's another thing which struck me as "odd" --

In "The Seer Overheard" in HBP, when Harry runs into Trelawney and she's just been thrown out of the Room of Requirement and reports that she heard someone "whooping with glee," Harry immediately knows that it was Draco. He's been trying all term to catch that little ferret at whatever he's doing. Why in the world didn't Harry run into the ROR right then and catch Draco? He knows he's in there -- Trelawney just heard him. He knows how to get in now -- he figured it out when he was hiding his textbook from Snape.

I know he was on his way to answer Dumbledore's note/summons, but really! The Harry I've come to know and love would almost have to have taken a little side trip into the ROR to try to catch Draco, wouldn't he? Instead, he just tells Trelawney to come along with him because she "ought to tell Dumbledore." Bah -- who's talking here -- Harry or Hermione??? Seemed very odd to me.



Jennifer Anderson - Aug 30, 2005 2:09 pm (#1198 of 2970)
He was in a hurry to see Dumbledore is what I would guess. The Horcuxes are more important to take care of.



veil 26 - Aug 30, 2005 2:38 pm (#1199 of 2970)
Madam Pince: "Why in the world didn't Harry run into the ROR right then and catch Draco?"

I hadn't thought of that. I had the impression when I read that chapter that Malfoy had hurriedly exited the ROR when he feared that Trelawney might discover his identity and what he was doing there.

Upon re-reading, however, I see the text says no such thing, only that: "Everything went pitch-black and the next thing I knew, I was being hurled headfirst out of the room!" It doesn't say Malfoy ran past her, or anything like that. I suppose my perception was influenced by her past-tense reference--"there was somebody already in there"--and Harry's past-tense reference--"Who was in there?" After all, they're standing right outside the ROR, and they're not saying "there is somebody already in there" and "Who's in there?" Soon thereafter, Harry is distracted by a predictable surge of hatred for Snape (when he finds out Snape overheard the prophecy--his hatred for Snape definitely trumps his hatred for Malfoy), and he runs off to Dumbledore's office without probably any further thought of Malfoy or anyone else who might be in the ROR.

This might be another case of Harry's emotions interfering with what might be a wiser course of action, if only he could stay focused.

BTW, is "I assure you that it requires no further investigation" kind of like "these aren't the droids you seek"? (Excuse pop-cultural reference to other fantasy-fiction work!)



Madam Pince - Aug 30, 2005 2:49 pm (#1200 of 2970)
I hadn't thought of that "droid" reference, veil, but now that you mention it, it's rather similar! I don't think Dumbledore would've needed any mind-control, though -- he'd simply have to tell them and they'd believe him, I think. Look how they did with Snape -- they very briefly harbored a doubt, then lock-stepped behind Dumbledore's trust.

For a minute, I wondered too if perhaps Draco had run out right after Trelawney, but surely she or Harry would've seen or heard him? I mean, Harry was right there around the corner. And the darkness powder was inside the ROR which wouldn't have extended out into the corridor. Anyway, even if Harry thought Draco had escaped, it would still seem worth it to pop your head in just for a second to be sure. Ah, well, I guess it's just one of those things we'll wonder about. It would've screwed up the storyline if Harry had found out then about the Vanishing Cabinet.

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