Things which struck you as "odd"

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Post  Mona on Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:20 am



irish flutterby - Aug 30, 2005 3:00 pm (#1201 of 2970)
"Everything went pitch-black and the next thing I knew, I was being hurled headfirst out of the room!" I just realized what caused that. THE HAND OF GLORY. He picked it up, and everything went black.

(walks away smacking forehead.)



Madam Pince - Aug 30, 2005 3:03 pm (#1202 of 2970)
I don't think the Hand of Glory makes it dark -- it just gives light only to the holder if it's dark already. I think he tossed some Peruvian Darkness Powder. Of course, he probably had the Hand of Glory too. Probably standard "at-his-sides" for the entire time he was working on the Cabinet.

Actually, I should defer to Nathan Zimmermann -- he is much more knowledgable about the Hand of Glory myth than I am!



irish flutterby - Aug 30, 2005 3:21 pm (#1203 of 2970)
oy. And I thought I had an "Aha!" Oh well. That's what I get for trying to be brilliant.

(walks away, bowed head wagging ashamedly.)



Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 30, 2005 3:40 pm (#1204 of 2970)
Madam Pince, the only reason I am aware of the myths surrounding the Hand of Glory legends are due in large part to a professor I studied under at university who taught a mythology course and she included materials on thee medieval superstitions.

According to the mythology the Hand of Glory provided a source of light that could only be extinguished using milk. Also you are correct about the dDarkness being caused by the Peruvian Darkness Powder?



Soul Search - Aug 30, 2005 3:56 pm (#1205 of 2970)
I must have missed it. When did Draco get the hand of glory?



zelmia - Aug 30, 2005 4:17 pm (#1206 of 2970)
Rowling doesn't actually describe how Draco got the Hand of Glory. But (I think it's) Ron says something like, "He's got that Hand of Glory thing..." at some point early on in HBP. I think it's when the Trio are in Diagon Alley.
In my own personal backstory, Draco spends his allowance on it. Though Lucius isn't entirely pleased with the purchase, Draco is allowed to keep it anyway.



Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 30, 2005 4:25 pm (#1207 of 2970)
Soul search I am not certain when he got it I think he may have had as early as CS because I remember a mention of him wanting it then. But, I know he definitely has it by HBP because

"He came of the room about an hour after we began keeping watch, said Ginny. " "He was on his own clurching that awful shrivelled arm-" "His Hand of Glory ," said Ron. HBP Chapter 29 large print edition page 785.



Herm oh ninny - Aug 30, 2005 9:34 pm (#1208 of 2970)
Madam Pince - Harry does know that Draco is in the room, but he still doesn't know what he is using it for. When Harry ran in there to hide his book, he didn't know that it was the room that Draco was using. He just knew that it appeared that way because he wanted to hide something. Am I making any sense?



veil 26 - Aug 30, 2005 9:55 pm (#1209 of 2970)
Implied Age of Mrs. Cole: Considering the following references, how old did readers think Mrs. Cole was:

--She is the "matron" of the orphanage (she clearly runs the place, and competently).

--She slams down at least 3 glasses of gin, and Dumbledore presses her for information on Tom Riddle: "But Mrs. Cole pulled up short, and there was nothing blurry or vague about the inquisitorial glance she shot Dumbledore over her gin glass."

--She uses phrases like: "Well, that's better than a whack on the nose with a rusty poker."

--She downs more gin, and: "Harry was impressed to see that she was quite steady, even though two-thirds of the gin was now gone."

--Riddle refers to her as "That old cat".

I had the impression she was 40- to 50-plus years old.

Yet, remembering the night Merope Riddle came to the orphanage with Tom--"because I'd just started here myself"--she describes Merope as "this girl, not much older than I was myself at the time." I had the impression that poor Merope (who was also described as "a girl" in Chapter 10) was late teens, early 20s at the most, which--since Tom is now (in Chapter 13) 11 years old or close to it--would make Merope late 20s/early 30s if she had lived. And Mrs. Cole is younger than Merope would be, meaning that Mrs. Cole is late 20s/early 30s. Nothing really suspicious here, it just seems "odd", so this is the place to put it. But, I'd be interested to know if anyone, just from reading HBP, perceived Merope as older or Mrs. Cole as younger than I did.



Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 30, 2005 10:08 pm (#1210 of 2970)
If Merope was about 19 when she gave birth to Tom and 19 when she delivered him to the orphanage and Mrs. Cole was approximately 30 that would imply that Mrs. Cole is approximately 41 to 42 years of age at the time Dumbledore visits the orphanage. It is possible for a child around eleven years of age to view someone in their late thirties or early forties as being old.



Madam Pince - Aug 31, 2005 5:28 am (#1211 of 2970)
I understand what you're saying, Herm-oh-ninny; you could be right. I thought that Harry knew that Draco was "hiding" something in the castle so he could work on repairing it, so he would therefore know that using the "I need a place to hide something" charm to get into the ROR would get him into the same place Draco was. Plus, he knew that Trelawney had just been trying to use the ROR as a place to hide her sherry bottles, so he should've known that "I need a place to hide" would get him back in there where she'd just seen Draco. Oh well. He didn't do it, regardless. Silly boy.



veil 26 - Aug 31, 2005 9:21 am (#1212 of 2970)
No, Nathan--if Merope was about 19 when she gave birth to Tom and left him at the orphanage, then Mrs. Cole was 19 or younger at that time, because Mrs. Cole clearly says that she--Mrs. Cole--is younger than Merope. So, in the pensieve scene in "The Secret Riddle," the oldest Mrs. Cole could be is late 20s/early 30s, though the description of her sounds like that of a much older woman.



Norbert not a common welsh green - Aug 31, 2005 11:34 am (#1213 of 2970)
DD said Merope was 18 when Marvalo and Moffin were sent to Azkaban. we also know that it was over a year and under 1 year 9 months after she eloped with Tom Snr. when Jnr. was born. Useing that info I'd say she was no more than 20 when Tom was born.

We know she said little at the Orphanage and that she had a hard life so she could have looked older than 20 leading Cole to belive Merope was a bit older than her



irish flutterby - Aug 31, 2005 3:14 pm (#1214 of 2970)
which would mean that Cole could have been early twenties when Tom was left there, and therefore early thirtees when DD visits. I can see an eleven year old kid thinking that she's old. Especially if she's a bit hardened, and drinks. That tends to age a person.



kezz brady - Aug 31, 2005 4:05 pm (#1215 of 2970)
I don't know if it's been mentioned before, but I found it extremely odd that Snape left his book lying around in the potions cupboard where anyone could find it. As it was full of his notes and ideas, I would have thought he would have kept track of it. The only reason I can think of is that he didn't know it was there because he gave it to someone who later discarded it. My choice would be Lily, if she was in the year below Snape and the Marauders it would make sense. Slughorn keeps telling us that Harry is good at potions like his mother, maybe he is exactly like her by using same book. Also Snape "knows" that Harry has the book and didn't seem to be surprised. It's also odd that neither Remus or Sirius ever mentioned to Harry that Lily was "brilliant" at potions, which they would have realised if they were in the same class.



wynnleaf - Aug 31, 2005 4:13 pm (#1216 of 2970)
That's a theory I haven't heard yet -- Snape loaned the book to Lily and that's why Slughorn was so reminded of her when Harry did anything from the potions book. That could be a possibility. The other part of your suggestion, that Lily left the book at Hogwarts and it ended up in the potions room, probably wouldn't work. Snape taught potions for, what, 15 years? I'm sure he knew his old book was there.

As I recall, Snape kept his old office, even though he became the DADA teacher. Maybe because he didn't have to pack up, he didn't go through the potions storeroom carefully enough. I don't think he'd have left it there on purpose, for Harry to get (some have suggested that). Several students had thought they wouldn't be able to take potions in 6th year, but were able to take it when Snape switched to DADA, so he'd never have been able to predict who would get the book. A "happy" accident, as it were.



DM Havox - Aug 31, 2005 4:24 pm (#1217 of 2970)
Ok, I glanced over some of the +1000 posts so please forgive the new guy if this is already discussed. I thought it was odd that DD flew off the tower, no simply dropped dead like everyone else we have seen hit with the AK. But also that DD did save Harry by slowing him down from falling off his broomstick in POA. Just struck me as odd.



Dame Peverell - Sep 3, 2005 12:16 am (#1218 of 2970)
I haven't read a single post in here yet, sorry. I just want to add to the "ODD" list something from the Ginny Weasley thread.

Strictly according to canon, Ginny Weasley is the only Pureblood Witch-girl "in sight"

I am already sick of debating it. I just want it "In the record" for whatever it's worth. Hopefully nothing.

Of course if canon I missed disputes it, please say so.



irish flutterby - Sep 3, 2005 4:13 am (#1219 of 2970)
Surely some of the Slytherine girls are pure-blood. Pansy or Millecent Bulstrode.



haymoni - Sep 3, 2005 12:45 pm (#1220 of 2970)
Luna should be a pure-blood.



rambkowalczyk - Sep 3, 2005 7:33 pm (#1221 of 2970)
I think Lily and Snape are in the same year. Lily and James were Head Boy and Head Girl. I can't see Snape lending his book to Lily. Why? cause she has no money? Doesn't make sense.

I do think it odd that Harry got the book. Ron could have just as easily gotten it as well.



Norbert not a common welsh green - Sep 4, 2005 1:03 pm (#1222 of 2970)
I found it odd that DD showed no intresed in what the gaunts said in Parlestoungh in the pensive. I don't think he could understand it himself. Why did'nt he ask Harry what they said?



wynnleaf - Sep 4, 2005 2:37 pm (#1223 of 2970)
I found this quite odd, too, even the first time I read it. I wondered if someone else speaks parseltongue and we don't know it -- like could DD speak it?? Or could someone else speak it who had seen that pensieve memory? It did seem strange.



zelmia - Sep 4, 2005 3:14 pm (#1224 of 2970)
No, the Memory person could not speak Parseltongue. I think only Harry could understand them. I kind of got the impression that was why Dumbledore wanted Harry along in the first place.



Verity - Sep 6, 2005 6:22 am (#1225 of 2970)
I don't think Dumbledore speaks Parseltongue, unless maybe he learned to speak it after Harry's second year. If he had always been a parselmouth, then he would have heard the Basilisk in the Chamber of Secrets just as Harry did.



Soul Search - Sep 6, 2005 7:01 am (#1226 of 2970)
I got the idea that one had to be born a parselmouth (or have Voldemort pass the skill to you) and that it could not be learned. Otherwise, all of Slytherin house would use it as a secret language.

Dumbledore did suggest that there were other wizards that spoke Parseltongue. We saw the Gaunts speak it. Perhaps he had someone else relive the memory and tell him what was said.



Soul Mate for Sirius - Sep 6, 2005 10:19 am (#1227 of 2970)
I know DD suggested there were other wizards who spoke it, but didn't he also tell Harry that he thought Harry and LV were the only Parselmouths to come through Hogwarts since Slytherin himself? I'm not exactly sure, and I could have this wrong. I'm rereading CoS right now and I'm almost at the end, so I'll correct myself or give the exact quote when I get there tonight.

-Jenn



Soul Search - Sep 6, 2005 10:56 am (#1228 of 2970)
Soul Mate for Sirius -- Yes, please. That would be interesting, since we already know that the Gaunts spoke parseltounge routinely.



Joanna S Lupin - Sep 6, 2005 11:01 am (#1229 of 2970)
Regarding discussion about Gringotts and how Sirius withdrew his money to buy a Firebolt, I think you might be forgetting that Sirius used Harry?s name, not his own, in the transaction. While we may wonder why would Harry Potter use money of his parents? traitor, but why should goblins spend a thought on the matter? Especially if he was authorized, which I bet was the case? Also, the story of Sirius? treachery wasn?t widely known, I think Fudge said that.



irish flutterby - Sep 6, 2005 5:00 pm (#1230 of 2970)
As far as the Parseltongue issue goes, I think, for the most part, with Harry it's a thing that comes and goes. For example, he didn't really realize that he was speaking Parseltongue when Draco sent taht snake at him. Also, if he could always understand it, why didn't he "hear" what the boa was saying at the zoo. Why couldn't he "hear" (perhaps understand is a better word) what Nagini was saying to LV in his dream?



TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 6, 2005 5:09 pm (#1231 of 2970)
"Probably the only two Parselmouths to come to Hogwarts since the great Slytherin himself" TR:CoS

"You can speak Parseltongue, Harry," said Dumbledore calmly, "because Lord Voldemort -- who is the last remaining ancestor of Salazar Slytherin -- can speak Parseltongue." DD:CoS

"Yes, indeed; a rare ability, and one supposedly connected with the Dark Arts, although as we know, there are Parselmouths among the great and the good too." DD:HBP

Hope that helps.



Maddest Dragon - Sep 6, 2005 7:46 pm (#1232 of 2970)
You've come to what I think is really odd: that none of the Gaunts seem to have gone to Hogwarts. Magical ability is the main criteria for admission, and they unquestionably have that--and they're an old wizarding family to boot.

Poor Merope. Hogwarts, if she had gone, could have been her salvation.



Dame Peverell - Sep 6, 2005 8:06 pm (#1233 of 2970)
It's odd that we never had so much as a sentence about Merope's Mother.
She would be Lord Voldemort's Grandmother.
Her absence has had a profound influence on the story line.



Maddest Dragon - Sep 6, 2005 8:51 pm (#1234 of 2970)
Merope's mother probably died well before when we first see the Gaunts. Since we see them only through memories in the Pensieve, we see only those who the memory donors saw. I don't think it's that odd that we don't have any flashbacks that far back. Dumbledore chooses to show Harry only the ones that he expects will help him destroy Voldemort. I'm not saying Voldemort's grandmother is completely irrelevant, but it's likely that there's nothing she could show us that we can't learn from another source--at least, not that would be directly relevant to the horcruxes.

I still wonder why Merope and Morfin didn't go to Hogwarts....



Dame Peverell - Sep 6, 2005 10:33 pm (#1235 of 2970)
What I was going for was: Imagine the influence on the story line her absence has caused. Merope, growing up motherless, with no self-esteem, skills, love, etc., brought about the pitiable life of Tom Riddle through a desperate act of need in a time when she was all alone and friendless in the world. I think it unusual that DD didn't try to find out more about her when Tom first entered the Orphanage, or later, Hogwarts. Perhaps he did and discovered that she had died. I think it's odd that he didn't tell Harry something about her but I suppose it could come up in book #7.



Joanna S Lupin - Sep 7, 2005 4:04 am (#1236 of 2970)
Why should it though? What can long dead lady bring to the story? Nothing IMO. From various examples it seems that Hogwarts is some high standard solution. It doesn't seem that every single magical child goes there. Patil twins, Seamus all mention that their parents wanted them to leave Hogwarts, also Hagrid says that it has always been risky to send your kids to Hogwarts. It sounds as if some wizarding families prefer to keep their children at home and home school them. With Gaunts it seems likely that Marvolo had rather tutor his kids personally than let them go to a school of low, in his opinion, standards of students purity accepted there. And Morfin doesn't speak English either, does he?

Jo



Verity - Sep 7, 2005 7:44 am (#1237 of 2970)
I don't think it's odd that Merope and Morfin didn't go to Hogwarts. In fact, I think it makes perfect sense. Remember, Slytherin himself left the school. His descendents, especially someone like Marvolo, likely shared Slytherin's view that muggle-borns should not be admitted to Hogwarts and probably chose to home-school their children. Given his prejudice against Muggles, I think Hogwarts is the last place Marvolo would send his children.



Winky Woo - Sep 7, 2005 2:15 pm (#1238 of 2970)
Quote from FAQ section of her site

Do all young people in Britain's Wizarding World go to Hogwarts? For example, did Stan Shunpike attend Hogwarts? Or is Hogwarts a school just for those who are particularly good at magic while others go into trades without formal schooling? [Mugglenet/Lexicon question]

Everyone who shows magical ability before their eleventh birthday will automatically gain a place at Hogwarts; there is no question of not being ?magical enough?; you are either magical or you are not. There is no obligation to take up the place, however; a family might not want their child to attend Hogwarts

I knew I'd read it some where...don't you just love the Lexicon! You can nearly always find what you are looking for!



K Stahl - Sep 9, 2005 5:01 pm (#1239 of 2970)
Edited Sep 9, 2005 7:10 pm
If a galleon is worth about £5 which is about $9 on September 9, 2005, then at approximately $450/troy oz, this implies that a galleon is about .622 g or 622 mg or .02oz.

The specific gravity of gold is 19.3. That is, one cubic centimeter (cc) of gold weighs 19.3 grams (g).

Density=Mass/Volume (D=M/V => V=M/D) V=.62/19.3=.03cc The cube root of .03 is .31 thus .03^(1/3)=.31cm cube .31cm (3.1mm) is about the thickness of a US gold Eagle or about one third the width of the little fingernail of an adult or one third the width of a standard shirt button. If it were pounded thin, it might be the size of a very thin shirt button.

A thousand galleons would weigh 622g or about one and a third pounds, so it should be easily carried but you do NOT want to drop your galleon in the grass!



irish flutterby - Sep 10, 2005 8:50 am (#1240 of 2970)
I'm sorry something that just struck me as odd. That you took the time to figure all that out, and that you expect someone as ignorant to math/science and the like to actually understand what that means.

I don't mean to be rude (I know, accidental rudeness's alarming frequency) but I totally missed that. Can you dumb it down for those of us with no affinity for equal signs!Wink



K Stahl - Sep 10, 2005 10:47 am (#1241 of 2970)
Dear Mrs. Flutterby:

As you wished:

Starting with a given price of a galleon of about £5, I used my currency conversion widget (available on Mac OS X version 10.4.2) to convert from British Pound Sterling to US Dollars. It varies from day to day. Just now I got £5=$9.20. Since everything is approximate, I used $9.

The price of gold bullion is about $450/troy oz. There are 12 troy oz to one pound (weight not money). I was unable to use my conversion widget to convert from troy oz to grams. On web site [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I selected ?weight?. I then selected ?All Weight and Mass Conversions?. I then selected to convert from troy oz to grams. 1 troy ounce = 31.1034768 gram.

Note: The above site is also good for currency conversions.

I used 31.1 grams (31.1g) in my calculations. Since 31.1 grams is valued at $450 and a galleon is valued at $9, I divided 9 by 450 to get .02. That is $9 is .02 x $450 or one fiftieth of $450.

31.1g multiplied by .02 is .622g or 622 milligrams (622mg).

We now know how much a galleon weighs, but to know how big it is, we must know the relation of mass(weight in this case) to volume (the amount of space it takes up). This relationship is given by the formula ?Density=Mass/Volume?. This can be written as D=M/V. But we want to know the volume. Algebraic minipulation allows us to come up with V=M/D. See web site: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

D=M/V By multiplying both sides of the = sign by the same thing, in this case V we get DV=MV/V (A non-zero number divided by itself is 1) DV=M x 1 or DV=M We now divide both sides by D giving DV/D=M/D or 1 x V=M/D thus

V=M/D

We look up the density or specific gravity of gold and find it is 19.3. This means that one cubic centimeter of gold weighs 19.3 grams. Try Google search for ?specific gravity of gold?. Don?t use the quotes.

Now we can substitute actual values for M and D and V=M/D becomes V=.622/19.3=.0322. This means that .622g of gold (our galleon) takes up a space of .0322 cubic centimeters or .0322cc.

Since this is a volume measurement, we must take the cube root of .0322 to find the length of one side of a cube that takes up .0322cc. You will find a cube root calculator at : [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The cube root of .0322cubic centimeters is 0.3181402543110365 centimeters. Such precision is not necessary. If you multiply .31 times .31 times .31 you get .029791. This is very close to .0322. If you multiply .318 times .318 times .318 you get .03275143. Now we are closer. .318 is about a third of a centimeter. An ordinary shirt button is about one centimeter.

Yours truly, Situ KaiDa



Joanna S Lupin - Sep 10, 2005 11:44 am (#1242 of 2970)
What is the point, anyway? What's odd in all this?



Abracapocus - Sep 10, 2005 12:11 pm (#1243 of 2970)
A galleon would be about one-sixth the size of a US penny.

Edited: Well, unless a galleon is not pure gold.



Choices - Sep 10, 2005 4:56 pm (#1244 of 2970)
That doesn't make sense for it to be one-sixth the size of a penny. Hermione used a fake galleon to put the message about the time of DA meetings. It would have to be big enough for that, and at the Quidditch World Cup the muggle assigning spaces for the Weasley's tents said someone tried to pay him with coins the size of hubcaps. Sounds like galleons are pretty big to me. I have always pictured them about the size of a 50 cent piece.



Abracapocus - Sep 10, 2005 6:05 pm (#1245 of 2970)
I agree Choices. Galleons would have to be larger to fit your examples, however I think the the coins the size of hubcaps was a slight exaggeration.

I was just posting how I interpreted Situ KaiDa's well calculated post. Pure gold is 24 Karat (999 out of 1000 parts gold). Fourteen Karat gold is 14 parts gold to 10 parts other metals such as silver or other alloys. I am not a metallurgist, but I would guess that Galleons are not pure gold.

This is one of the things I love about this Forum - revisting forgotten facts or learning new ones.



K Stahl - Sep 10, 2005 6:13 pm (#1246 of 2970)
The size of a galleon is odd because it indicates a lack of verisimilitude by the author. Had this been a mythical fantasy such as "Earthsea", Miss Rowling could have created any size coin and had them be of any value. The Harry Potter series is however set in modern day England and Scotland. A galleon of about 1/3 troy oz with there being 113 sickles to a galleon with Harry's wand costing 47 sickles would be more believable. It is odd because it seems that Miss Rowling simply picked, out of thin air, the relationship of galleons to sickles to knutes and the price of things such as Harry's wand (7galleons) because she likes prime numbers.

This is a little thing, but small bits of story that lack verisimilitude tend to interrupt the flow of the story. Even a fantasy must be made as true to life as possible.

Verisimilitude -- How fully the characters and actions in a work of fiction conform to our sense of reality. To say that a work has a high degree of verisimilitude means that the work is very realistic and believable--it is "true to life.? (Harris, Robert. "Evaluating Internet Research Sources." VirtualSalt. 17 Nov. 1997. 5 Sep 2005 .)



haymoni - Sep 10, 2005 6:21 pm (#1247 of 2970)
We really are geeky, aren't we?

I wouldn't have it any other way, mind you!



K Stahl - Sep 10, 2005 6:42 pm (#1248 of 2970)
Excellent! A mild castigation followed by an endearment. Very well done.

No offence taken.



Abracapocus - Sep 10, 2005 6:44 pm (#1249 of 2970)
Geeks? Us? Nah!



The giant squid - Sep 10, 2005 11:18 pm (#1250 of 2970)
Of all the gold coins used in circulation in history, not one of them was pure gold. Pure gold in any amount is too soft to use as coinage; it is always alloyed with some other metal. What you have really calculated, Situ, is how little of a golden Galleon is actually gold.

it seems that Miss Rowling simply picked, out of thin air, the relationship of galleons to sickles to knuts

Considering the same woman has had every school year start on Monday, September 1, and has herself claimed to be "horrible at maths", I seriously doubt she bothered checking her coin conversions against a metallurgical formula. It just wasn't important at the time she wrote SS/PS (and now it's too late to fix).

--Mike
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Winky Woo - Sep 11, 2005 6:22 am (#1251 of 2970)
I agree with the TGS!

JKR simply has no head for maths, she has proved this time and time again! Also wizards are not known for their logic so there is always the possibility that they are worth more than the face value.

I found this explanation on the web

Coins were not made of pure silver or pure gold, but were always alloyed with another metal to improve their ability to withstand wear. The amount of silver or gold contained in the alloy is known as the fineness. Although coins may carry the same name throughout many periods of this history, they often varied widely in size, weight and, less often, fineness. Coins could also change value during their lifetime as the value of the metal in them became greater than their face value.



Choices - Sep 11, 2005 8:06 am (#1252 of 2970)
Actually, I would bet that most of us have not had the flow of the story interrupted by thoughts of the inexactness or inaccuracy of the coins used by wizards. Personally, I have been too busy being fanatically absorbed in the 6 books to even give the size or pureness of the coins a second thought.....until now. Situ, you may have just ruined the HP books for me. :-( (Just kidding - LOL)



irish flutterby - Sep 11, 2005 12:57 pm (#1253 of 2970)
"Considering the same woman has had every school year start on Monday, September 1, and has herself claimed to be "horrible at maths", I seriously doubt she bothered checking her coin conversions against a metallurgical formula."

Yeah, that boat, the one with those horrible at maths (geeze for American English, there's even an extra "s" on the end of that) that's the one I'm on!

NOte: I say American English because I am well aware of the fact that we Americans butcher English, as well as some of us butchering maths!

That being said, I can't remember exactly what it was, but there was a typographical error at the very beginning of HBP that drove me knuts, but the money thing never got my attention at all.



Elanor - Sep 11, 2005 1:10 pm (#1254 of 2970)
Well, I've always thought that, on the contrary, money in the Wizarding World was very well thought by JKR, according to the fact that the wizarding society still seems to live as centuries before in some ways.

In fact, the wizarding money always made me think of the old monetary French system (before the French Revolution) when you paid in "livres" (pounds), "sols" (sols) and "deniers" (deniers) with a curious system of count: 1 pound was equal to 20 sols and 1 sol was equal to 12 deniers. When you counted money at that time, you had to do just as we do with hours, minutes and seconds now: for example 25 sols=1 pound and 5 sols, etc... It is just the same in the WW except that here a Galleon equals 17 sickles and 1 sickle 29 knuts.

So, for me, using such historical reference gives to the books a kind of authenticity. But maybe it is just one of my crazy ideas (I won't say right now why I think that each schoolyear beginning on Monday September 1rst is in fact perfectly logical, one funny idea by post is enough! )



irish flutterby - Sep 11, 2005 2:27 pm (#1255 of 2970)
Okay, my curiosity is peeked. Anyone else really want to know Elanor's idea about September 1st? Please?



Soul Mate for Sirius - Sep 11, 2005 3:39 pm (#1256 of 2970)
Oh!! I do I do! Tell us Elanor!!

-Jenn



Emily - Sep 11, 2005 4:01 pm (#1257 of 2970)
Elanor, you have to tell us now!



Choices - Sep 11, 2005 4:16 pm (#1258 of 2970)
Yes Elanor, all us maths dummies in this boat want to know. LOL Move over a bit, Flutterby - it's crowded in here. :-)



Elanor - Sep 11, 2005 9:05 pm (#1259 of 2970)
LOL! Here it is! In fact, it comes from the discussion on the alchemy thread. In short, I always thought that JKR couldn't be that bad at maths which means that the only other solution is that she is telling us something by making those "mistakes", and that that "mistake" is in fact a symbol. And the ouroboros (the snake which bites its own tail), the circle symbolism, comes to my mind at once: term always starts on September the first, and class always starts on a Monday, because a schoolyear makes then a perfect circle.

For the alchemists, the ouroboros also symbolised a conception of learning: the one who learns makes some progress and the one who makes some progress wants to learn more. Each year (book) of Harry's journey but also each schoolyear makes a circle, and each year Harry makes some progress and gets over another step towards his final goal, defeating Voldemort.

The ouroboros represents perfection, eternity, the beginning and the end at the same time. It is very present in the series as each book covers a year in Harry's life and hence makes a circle. And the symbol is sometimes emphasized, as in PoA that begins with the "Owl post" chapter and ends with the "Owl Post again" one, or in GoF whose last chapter is called "The beginning", etc... For me class always beginning on September first has nothing to do with a maths mistake but is part of the same kind of symbolism and, in fact, reinforces it.

I told you it was a funny idea! Feel free to ignore it!



Snuffles - Sep 12, 2005 2:20 am (#1260 of 2970)
No, I think it is a very good idea Elanor, and does make sense to me, but right now my head is still spinning from reading the previous 20 posts regarding, Galleons, sickles and knuts!

Then again, making my head hurt doesn't take much!



Choices - Sep 12, 2005 9:32 am (#1261 of 2970)
LOL Thanks for sharing your thoughts Elanor. It does make perfect sense. I like your ideas very much. It will be interesting to see if, at the end of book 7, we are back at the beginning again. Each book makes a circle - will all 7 books together equal a circle?



irish flutterby - Sep 12, 2005 10:15 am (#1262 of 2970)
Scary. If we come full circle, then book 7b will end with Harry at the Dursley's possibly locked in the closet under the stairs. Or, maybe at teh zoo talking to a boa. That'd be fun. Though on a broader note, it will probably just end on his birthday.

I find it odd that, as I was rereading HBP, I never realized all the little clues about Harry and Ginny until the scene with Ginny kissing Dean. That's odd. I should have guessed.




Elanor - Sep 12, 2005 10:28 am (#1263 of 2970)
Thanks! I'm happy you like the idea.

Choices: "Each book makes a circle - will all 7 books together equal a circle?"

Exactly! This is one of my pet theories. (May I hug you? ) I always thought that book 7 should end where the whole story begun, that is to say either at Godric's Hollow or The Hogs Head (if the prophecy is seen as the starting point) or even 4PD (if the first time we encounter Harry is seen as the starting point). So, I was very, very excited to see that Harry himself, in the HBP, was telling us what was the starting point we should consider when he said he wanted to go to Godric's Hollow next because: " 'For me, it started there, all of it. I've just got a feeling I need to go there." (HBP, P.606). The circle has already started to close...

LOL Snuffles! Maths discussions always make me feel as if someone had tried a bad Confusing Charm on me... **sending healing charms**

Edit: crossposted with Irish Flutterby. I never thought of the zoo before but that's a fun possibility too!



irish flutterby - Sep 12, 2005 2:43 pm (#1264 of 2970)
"There was silence. Riddle had frozen, his face expressionless, but his eyes were flickering back and forth between each of Dumbledore's, as though trying to catch one of them lying." HBP p. 270 US Ed.

This just struck me as odd. The first time I read it, I misread it and thought it said "between each of the Dumbledores" as though he could see both of the DD's that were there in the memory. The second time I read it correctly, but it still seems funny that one of DD's eyes might be lying while the other might not. Odd wording, I think.



Choices - Sep 12, 2005 5:36 pm (#1265 of 2970)
Elanor - {{{hugs}}} - It has been my thought for sometime that Harry may leave the Wizarding World for a time after he defeats Voldemort - just to clear his mind and relax a bit after he completes his difficult task. The books start with him in the Muggle World, not knowing he is a wizard, maybe they will end with him back in the Muggle World wanting to forget for a time that he is a wizard....that he was "The Chosen One".



Elanor - Sep 14, 2005 7:47 am (#1266 of 2970)
I love that idea Choices!



LooneyLuna - Sep 14, 2005 5:39 pm (#1267 of 2970)
A thing that has bothered me about HBP is that Hermione spent practically the whole book either being jealous of the Prince's potions shortcuts or disparaging the Prince himself and then in the end, she's all, "Well, the Prince was a bit dodgy, but alright, really" (my paraphrase). Why the turnaround? Is it because she found out the Prince was Snape? Just struck me as odd.



kezz brady - Sep 15, 2005 5:29 pm (#1268 of 2970)
I think it is odd that Harry's scar didn't react to the horcruxes. In COS he had no reaction to Tom Riddle even when he was almost corporeal. He only had a minor reaction to the Voldemort infested Quirrel in PS, but I would have thought that the other bits of Voldemort would also have had some effect. It would have been a useful way for him to detect the other horcruxes!



Choices - Sep 15, 2005 5:48 pm (#1269 of 2970)
I think there was a point when Voldemort put a stop to the mental interactions between Harry and himself and that was when Harry no longer was bothered by his scar reacting to Voldemort's presence or moods. I'm sure Harry was glad for the relief.



wynnleaf - Sep 15, 2005 8:19 pm (#1270 of 2970)
kezz brady,

Your point that Harry's scar didn't react to Tom Riddle in CoS is a good one. I think it's great evidence that LV can't tell when someone destroys a horcrux, because his conscience isn't really connected to the separate horcruxes. He had placed enough of his memory into the diary so that it acted on it's own - maybe somewhat like a portrait. But the real LV didn't know what his diary was doing at the time. Similarly, LV isn't aware of what's going on with his other horcruxes. He has to believe they're hidden so well, that they're safe. Because other than physically checking up on them, he can't tell. At least that's the way it looks. And that would explain why Harry's scar reacts to the real sentient LV, but not to the pieces of soul in the horcruxes.



irish flutterby - Sep 16, 2005 5:08 am (#1271 of 2970)
Which would explain why, for the purposes he intended, making and hiding 7 Horcruxes was a really good idea. If you don't know what's going on with them, better to have a lot of them. No one else would think to use more than one, so anyone who destroyed one would assume that that would be the end of Voldy.



Choices - Sep 16, 2005 10:30 am (#1272 of 2970)
Diary Tom was not yet the full fledged Voldemort and diary Tom was before the time when Voldemort gave Harry the scar - maybe those are two more reasons why Harry's scar did not react to Tom.



Hawthorne - Sep 18, 2005 12:31 pm (#1273 of 2970)
Sorry to change the subject in mid-flight but I've begun to reread all the books and have found something right off that bothers me a bit. In The Sorcerer's Stone, I found it odd that Harry found the Mirror of Erised (after Christmas) in that deserted classroom way after the stone was brought to Hogwartz (the start of term) and put under the trapdoor guarded by Fluffy. Does that mean it wasn't guarding the stone until Dumbledore had to put it out of Harry's reach? Wouldn't you think the "protections" set by the teachers to guard the stone would have been put in all at the same time? Did Dumbledore have some other protection before he decided to use the MoE? Did he intend Harry to find the mirror, so he would know about it when when he had to use it to get the stone? Does that mean DD knew Harry would be the one to save the stone?



Steve Newton - Sep 18, 2005 3:19 pm (#1274 of 2970)
I think that the Mirror was hiding the Stone in plain sight. I would suggest that you read Poe's 'The Purloined Letter.'

As described, no follower of Voldemort would be able to retrieve the Stone since they would want to give it to Voldemort and hence could not get it.



Choices - Sep 18, 2005 4:27 pm (#1275 of 2970)
It has never crossed my mind in all the re-reads I have done of the books that the Mirror of Erised was hiding the stone. It never crossed my mind that the Mirror of Erised had anything to do with the stone at all. Yes, it was there at the end and it showed Harry getting the stone (placed in his pocket by the Harry in the mirror), but I never took that to mean the mirror actually had the stone.....it was just reflecting what Harry wished would happen. He desired to get the stone, to keep it from Voldemort, and give it back to Dumbledore. He wanted to find the stone, not to use the stone, and that was the charm that Dumbledore had placed upon it. Only one with pure intent could find the stone. The mirror simply showed Harry where to find it. I'd like to know what others think - if I have missed the point I want to know.



wynnleaf - Sep 18, 2005 8:10 pm (#1276 of 2970)
Choices,

I always thought that the mirror was the key to discovering the stone. But I never thought that the mirror was actually the hiding place of the stone.



Sparrowhawk - Sep 18, 2005 11:20 pm (#1277 of 2970)
Choices - and now Wynnleaf-, I believe that you have explained the role of the mirror to perfection: not the hiding place itself, but the key to finding the stone, and a key that only a person with pure intent could get access to...



The giant squid - Sep 18, 2005 11:43 pm (#1278 of 2970)
Hawthorne does have a point, though...if the mirror of Erised was the key to getting the stone, why wasn't it under the trapdoor with (presumably) the rest of the guards from the moment the stone entered Hogwarts? What was the final step of the sequence before that?

--Mike



Hawthorne - Sep 19, 2005 12:59 pm (#1279 of 2970)
?...an? Dumbledore himself did somethin?, o? course.? Rubeus Hagrid pp. 232 The Sorcerer?s Stone US ed.

I really believed the mirror was Dumbledore?s ?protection? for the stone. Harry asks: ?How did I get the Stone out of the mirror?? And DD goes on to explain. (SS pp. 300 US ed.) I just took that to mean the Mirror contained the Stone. As for being hidden in plain sight (thanks for the tip Steve N. and I have read The Purloined Letter?I love Poe!) I still wonder when the Mirror was put in the dungeons beneath Fluffy. Curious.

By the way when Dumbledore catches Harry with the Mirror he says: ?The Mirror will be moved to a new home tomorrow, Harry, and I ask you not to go looking for it again. If you ever do run across it, you will now be prepared.? (p. 214) Very curious.



Steve Newton - Sep 19, 2005 1:02 pm (#1280 of 2970)
You're very welcome. That's one of the many useful things that librarians do. Excepting Madam Pince, of course.



Soul Search - Sep 19, 2005 3:26 pm (#1281 of 2970)
Trivia which Struck Me as "Odd"

Does the Fat Lady have a name. Apparently she has guarded the Gryffindor common room portal for a long time. She was, at least, there when Mrs. Weasley attended Hogwarts. Ever polite Dumbledore, even, addresses her as "The Fat Lady" (PoA)

Nearly Headless Nick is the "Resident Gryffindor Ghost," yet I can't recall a scene when he is inside Gryffindor Tower, that is, in the common room.

We are used to the wizarding world terms "witch" and "wizard" for magical women and men. Occasionally, however, the term "warlock" is used. Is it the same as "wizard?" If there is some special meaning, I have not been able to figure it out from context.

HBP had the first example of a spell used agains Peeves. Seems some older students, at least, would have done something with Peeves in the previous five books.



Emily - Sep 19, 2005 4:36 pm (#1282 of 2970)
Good points, Soul Search. However, and I am not sure this counts, Lupin used 'Wdiwasi!' against Peeves in POA. True, he was enchanting the gum and not Peeves, but I would consider that good enough. By the way, what was used against peeves in HBP? I can't recall- only read it twice!



Hawthorne - Sep 19, 2005 5:12 pm (#1283 of 2970)
Warlocks must be different. Hags too. When Harry is staying at The Leaky Cauldron in PoA, he notices the comings and goings of witches, wizards, warlocks, and (maybe) a hag that orders a plate of raw liver. (Ewww!!!) I always thought warlocks were the male equivalent of witches. The dictionary says wizards are "skilled in magic" and a warlock is "a man practicing the black arts". Both are sorcerers according to Merriam Webster. So now I don't know any more than I did. Maybe warlocks and hags are darker and wizards and witches lighter.



Choices - Sep 19, 2005 5:41 pm (#1284 of 2970)
All warlocks can't be dark because one of Dumbledore's titles is Chief Warlock, Supreme Mugwump, International Confederation of Wizards. The guy (Perkins) who used to work in Arthur Weasley's office with him was described as an old warlock. What a warlock actually is and how it differs from a wizard, is definitely a mystery.



Soul Search - Sep 20, 2005 4:30 am (#1285 of 2970)
Edited Sep 20, 2005 6:27 am
Emily -- Harry uses the spell to stick one's tongue against the roof of one's mouth in the scene in the hospital with Dobby and Kreacher.

Yes, I thought Lupin just sent the gum at Peeves, rather than a spell against Peeves.

Evidence from the first five books had me believing that Peeves was such a strongly magical creature that any spells would bounce off, similar to Hagrid in OotP. Even Hogwarts staff, annoyed with Peeves, do not use magic to control him, e.g. McGonagal in OotP when Peeves is dropping water bombs.

Yet, Harry's spell was effective.



LooneyLuna - Sep 20, 2005 5:47 am (#1286 of 2970)
Soul Search, Harry used "langlock" to glue Peeves tongue to the roof of his mouth. It is odd that Harry's spell was effective, but the teachers don't control Peeves using spells. Maybe it's why Peeves would sometimes listen to the teachers.

Was Peeves mentioned after that scene? Or is he causing mischief at Hogwarts with his tongue stilled glued to the roof of his mouth?



irish flutterby - Sep 20, 2005 12:06 pm (#1287 of 2970)
McGonagall seems to be psuedo-amused with Peeves, sometimes. Perhaps they gain better control over him by only using magic to control him when it's absolutely necessary. Or maybe the Bloody Baron is a worse alternative. Often he is threatened by a report to the headmaster, so it may be that DD knows of special means of controlling Peeves. On the other hand, maybe it's the fact that Harry is soooo talented and powerful. Just a few suggestions.



Maddest Dragon - Sep 20, 2005 1:14 pm (#1288 of 2970)
Or maybe the HBP's spells are exceptionally powerful.

True, you'd think that, if Peeves could be manipulated with typical spells, the students would be trying it right and left, if not the teachers.



DM Havox - Sep 20, 2005 10:55 pm (#1289 of 2970)
I thought it was the rule against performing magic in the hallways that kept the students and peeves at wands length. Does he ever appear in a classroom, or the common room? I can't remember him doing so, but I could be wrong. Harry was in the hospital wing so I don't think that would have counted as the halls.



Maddest Dragon - Sep 20, 2005 11:11 pm (#1290 of 2970)
Students jinxing each other in the hallways is not uncommon, even if it is against the rules. Peeves sometimes appears in the hall between classes and on weekends, when no teachers are present. Surely someone would've thought of using magic against him by now--and probably would have gotten away with it, too.



The giant squid - Sep 21, 2005 12:39 am (#1291 of 2970)
My reading of it was that "wizard" refers to all magic-using people, "warlock" refers to male wizards and "witch" refers to female wizards.

I got nuthin' about the Peeves thing, though.



LooneyLuna - Sep 21, 2005 5:49 am (#1292 of 2970)
Didn't Peeves blow in Harry's ear while he was sleeping at some point? I'm sorry, I cannot remember which book. I think it's the only time we've seen Peeves in the boys' dorm room.

I had forgotten about the "no magic in the halls" rule, which certainly has been broken. You'd think you would have more magical incidents with kids using non-verbal spells - especially since the hallways are crowded and noisy.



Amilia Smith - Sep 21, 2005 10:54 pm (#1293 of 2970)
It is in PoA, right before Harry's Grim Defeat on the Quidditch Pitch. Peeves really ought to be barred from the bedrooms, but since that is the one and only time we see him there, maybe it isn't as bad as I am thinking.

My opinion, quite likely wrong, is that there is a lot more to the Half-Blood Prince book than meets the eye. Harry follows its directions and is an automatic whiz at Potions. He is able to do the spells found therein perfectly on the first try, without even knowing what they would do. And they affect Peeves when nothing else we've seen does.

Mills.



Madame Pomfrey - Sep 23, 2005 12:35 pm (#1294 of 2970)
I think it odd that the Gryffindor password after Katie was cursed by the opal necklace was "Baubles".Harry had gave it to the Fat Lady and she replied "same to you."Was this a little joke? Also, before Ron was poisoned by the oak- matured mead the password was "abstenence." Is it McGonnagal that makes the passwords or Dumbledore?



irish flutterby - Sep 23, 2005 12:44 pm (#1295 of 2970)
Is it possible that there have been plot clues right in front of us that we've missed? Maybe we should go back and check all of the books.



zelmia - Sep 23, 2005 4:40 pm (#1296 of 2970)
I always thought the Fat Lady made her own passwords. If not, then it should be McGonagall, as Head of House.



Denise P. - Sep 23, 2005 6:48 pm (#1297 of 2970)
Doesn't it mention in CoS that Sir Cadogan was thinking up ridiculous passwords and changing them on a daily basis? (When the Fat Lady was being repaired) This would support the idea that the Fat Lady does the passwords herself.



Soul Search - Sep 24, 2005 3:43 am (#1298 of 2970)
In OotP, the password becomes that cactus of Neville's, so he can remember it.

My thought was that Hermione, as prefect, came up with it because she cared for Neville, or felt sorry for him, or something.

In the same sequence, Harry arrives at the portrait, but doesn't know the password "because he hasn't seen a prefect yet."

Given all the other clues, it sounds like the portrait picks the password, but is open to suggestions from prefects, and then communicates it to prefects so it can be passed to others.



irish flutterby - Sep 24, 2005 5:24 am (#1299 of 2970)
"Doesn't it mention in CoS that Sir Cadogan was thinking up ridiculous passwords and changing them on a daily basis? (When the Fat Lady was being repaired) This would support the idea that the Fat Lady does the passwords herself."

Not to be nit-picky, but actually it happened in PoA. I would also assume that, for the most part, the Fat Lady picks the password. Especially judging by the fact that "abstinence" was the password because she and Violet had over indulged on the munks mead. I think the prefects come into play because it is their duty to inform their house of the password. I also think that if the Head of House or DD asked her to use a specific password, she would oblige. I figured it was McGonagall that made the password Mimbulus Mimbletonia, because she knew of Neville's skill in and love of Herbology, and she knew how forgetful he is. She may have even known about the cactus as she and Gran Longbottom are old schoolmates and possibly friends.



Denise P. - Sep 24, 2005 6:15 am (#1300 of 2970)
Duh on me! I obviously meant PoA

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Madame Pomfrey - Sep 24, 2005 7:53 am (#1301 of 2970)
I thought that I had read in an interview that Jo confirmed that the heads of house pick the passwords,But I can't find it. If Sir Cadogan and the Fat Lady was picking the passwords I guess this can't be true.

Denise,I know what you meant. Beautiful baby,by the way!



Soul Search - Sep 24, 2005 1:14 pm (#1302 of 2970)
More Trivia which Struck Me as "Odd" (Follow on to my #1280 Post)

There seems to be two kinds of werewolves: wizards that have been bitten (Lupin) and something that might roam the forbidden forest. There have been a couple of references to werewolves being among the dangers of the forest and one reference to Hagrid raising werewolf cubs under his bed. Somehow, these don't seem to fit the same definition.

Harry and Ron received "special awards" at the end of CoS, yet they haven't been mentioned since. Could they be in the same trophy case as Tom Riddle's "special award?"

The Ministry of Magic has been raiding places looking for dark objects, etc. (Since CoS) Yet, Borgin and Burkes seems to have a whole store full of dark objects, on display! Why does the Ministry leave it alone?

It is not only "odd," but ludicrous, for a squib to be responsible for cleaning Hogwarts castle. The place is HUGE. Even with magic it would be difficult to keep clean. Why is Filch caretaker? And, he still has time to patrol the halls and bother students. Amazing.

Do Hogwart's staff have other residences? We have seen Snape's (maybe.) Who knows about it? If Dumbledore had a residence, who gets it?

Someone needs to hint to JKR that a "slide rule" is for computing, not measuring (GoF, Crouch's mustache.) (Yes, I am old enough to have used one.)

And one maybe not so trivial

The HBP potions book is starting to bother me a bit. There is something "odd" going on.

Harry had trouble with potions, even when given clear directions. Yet, he can brew potions from HBP first time, perfect.

Harry doesn't always get a spell right the first time. Yet, spells from the HBP potions book work first time, even when he doesn't know what they are to do!

Is there something about the book itself. That is, is the book magical, with a spell on it that makes the owner perfect with its potions and spells?

As far as I can recall, no one else ever tried the potions or spells from the book ... just Harry.



zelmia - Sep 24, 2005 2:03 pm (#1303 of 2970)
I don't know about a spell on Snape's book. But Harry is undoubtedly more confident (a) without Snape breathing down his neck and criticising everything he does and (b) he is 16, nearly finished with school and has had kind of had a tiny seed planted by Dumbledore that he will need to learn exceedingly quickly if he is to defeat Voldemort.

Also, remember some things come easily to Harry: Flying, Quidditch and the Patronus - although the latter certainly required a bit more practice than the others. Still, he is capable of the spell when even fully qualified wizards are not.
The point is that he seems to be quite innately powerful. Perhaps it doesn't matter what the he thinks the spell will do as long as he says the incantation correctly. Still, it does seem quite contrary to what we've come to understand about intent being a major factor in a spell's success.



Choices - Sep 24, 2005 4:52 pm (#1304 of 2970)
Soul Search - "It is not only "odd," but ludicrous, for a squib to be responsible for cleaning Hogwarts castle. The place is HUGE. Even with magic it would be difficult to keep clean. Why is Filch caretaker? And, he still has time to patrol the halls and bother students. Amazing."

No, house elfs.....about a hundred of them. LOL



Maddest Dragon - Sep 24, 2005 8:56 pm (#1305 of 2970)
Filch also has the assistance of a cat, as far as patrolling the halls and bothering students goes. Very observant creatures, cats. And, for all we know, Mrs. Norris may be a cat with special powers, not just an ordinary one. For one thing, she seems to have been around for ages, like Filch--that would give her an extraordinary lifespan right there.

I suppose the real question is, what's Filch's real job? He seems to be a figure rather like the school custodian, conveniently introduced before JKR was ready to tip us off as to the existence of house elves. But his cleaning of the castle is likely minimal.



Steve Newton - Sep 25, 2005 4:38 am (#1306 of 2970)
The Filch thing has got me thinking. (Yes, that is a bad thing.) In OOTP we never see Umbridge ask Filch how long he has been at Hogwarts. We don't know whether he is a Dumbledore hire or not. (Or do we. He does mention having once been allowed to whip students.) I sort of thought that he was kept on to give him something to do. That's also why I once thought that Trelawney was allowed to stay. I'm rambling.



Soul Search - Sep 25, 2005 7:23 am (#1307 of 2970)
Choices -- I thought of the house elves before I added Filch to my "Trivial Oddments" list. I couldn't really find any association between Filch and house elves.

They are never seen together. Filch has never mentioned them. Dobby only mentioned Filch in OotP when he was describing the Room of Requirement (... Filch finds cleaning supplies there.)

House elves seem to, mostly, occupy the kitchen. There is one reference Dobby makes about going throughout the castle tending fires and the fake Moody summoned Dobby to get some robes cleaned (so he could mention Gillyweed.) I also seem to recall a reference to house elves and warming bed pans. There is no mention of house elves cleaning the castle.

If Filch commanded the house elves, we would never have seen him with a bucket and mop.

Yet, there is never a mention of Filch in the Gryffindor common room. Does he clean it? Can he even get in? Would anyone want him in the common room?

Lots of little bits of "odd" trivia.



Choices - Sep 25, 2005 8:23 am (#1308 of 2970)
We know the house elfs clean the Gryffindor common room - Hermione leaves the little hats and things she knits for them around the room and they are gone the next day. Then the elfs got angry (according to Dobby) and refused to clean the room, so Dobby had to do it all himself. Harry only knows about them cleaning the Gryffindor common room, but I would venture a guess that they clean the others also. I think they basically clean at night when the students are asleep.



Soul Search - Sep 25, 2005 8:45 am (#1309 of 2970)
Choices -- Well spotted. I forgot that part of OotP.

So then, if house elves clean the castle, why is Filch needed?

We do know Filch was at Hogwarts when James etal were there.



KWeldon - Sep 25, 2005 8:53 am (#1310 of 2970)
Since house elves being at Hogwarts was a surprise to Harry, maybe they clean "behind the scenes" and Filch takes care of more well-trodden places, like hallways, classrooms, bathrooms, etc.



Choices - Sep 25, 2005 9:04 am (#1311 of 2970)
I think Filch is sort of a working supervisor. He cleans and he directs the house elfs in their cleaning.



timrew - Sep 25, 2005 2:58 pm (#1312 of 2970)
Yes, I think Filch would like that..............bossing 'inferior' house-elves round. Good job Dumbledore is there to keep him in line..............

Oh, he's not any more, is he?



Ana Cis - Sep 25, 2005 5:07 pm (#1313 of 2970)
But McGonagall and the rest of the teachers are still there if Filch gets too carried away. However, if Dumbledore is dead, who are the elves loyal to now, the headmistress?



irish flutterby - Sep 26, 2005 5:13 am (#1314 of 2970)
This really may be reading too much into things but...here goes.

Everytime HRH sees Crabbe and Goyle after they've taken Polyjuice one of the trio (usually, if not always, Ron) says, "They keep getting smaller." In HBP, to my recollection, they only say it in reference to those two. Is it possible that one or both of them has got a back-store of one of their younger siblings hair so that they are not having to knock out some little girl student when they need to stand in front of the RoR?



Soul Search - Sep 26, 2005 10:54 am (#1315 of 2970)
In HBP, the scene where the trio first visits Hagrid. The discussion about how they are too busy to take Hagrid's Care of Magical Creatures class.

Hagrid says "Even if you had applied for time turners."

A few things are a bit odd:

This is the first reference to "Time-Turners" from Hagrid. If asked, I would have said Hagrid didn't know about them. Either time turners are common knowledge, or someone told Hagrid about how Buckbeak was rescued (although Hagrid hasn't made any reference to it.)

The statement also suggests that students getting time turners may not be as unique as the PoA storyline with Hermione led me to believe.

It might even be that any student that received a bunch of OWLs did it with time turners. Bill, Percy, Tom Riddle.

Interesting if Tom Riddle knew about, even used, a time turner. Wonder if any were missing after he left Hogwarts?

The other odd thing is Hagrid bringing time turners up at all. This is a storyline excuse to bring them up and Hermione to state that they were all damaged.

My read is that Harry will need a time turner in book seven.



wynnleaf - Sep 26, 2005 11:06 am (#1316 of 2970)
I think JKR used this as a way of being clear that time turners were not an option at this point. And I could see the MoM destroying them once they knew LV was back, and especially after he'd got into the MoM. I imagine the idea was to keep LV from ever getting one.

I could easily see Hagrid learning about how Buckbeak was rescued from DD -- the only one other than HRH to know (as far as we're told).

I doubt just anyone passing a lot of OWLs would get access to one in the past. Only very, very responsible kids would get access to one. And a student who could manage it academically, of course. And of course, Hermoine was very responsible. Still, I'm sure other students had used them in the past.



irish flutterby - Sep 26, 2005 2:56 pm (#1317 of 2970)
Why is it that the MOM go tall bent out of shape when Dobby dropped the triffle, but they did nothing when he apperated inside the Dursley residence?



Finn BV - Sep 26, 2005 3:05 pm (#1318 of 2970)
Perhaps they weren't able to detect his Apparation, but the actual charm was noticed.



Maddest Dragon - Sep 26, 2005 3:10 pm (#1319 of 2970)
House elves can Apparate and Disapparate inside Hogwarts. Humans can't. Sounds like house elf Apparition is outside the realm of what the Ministry can control--or keep track of.



Soul Search - Sep 26, 2005 3:56 pm (#1320 of 2970)
wynnleaf -- More on Time Turners

Given that the use of time turners is not as unique as PoA suggested.

Bill and Percy were both Head Boy. That indicates a student that was "responsible." They got 12 OWL's (Bill?), more than Hermione.

Tom Riddle was also head boy and a favorite of Headmaster Dippet. Slughorn was head of Slytherin House. From what we have seen, neither would have objected to a time turner for Tom Riddle.

Think of the opportunities for exploring the castle, looking for a secret chamber or even setting a basilisk loose. He could have done it while he was already in class!



wynnleaf - Sep 27, 2005 2:43 am (#1321 of 2970)
Hopefully they didn't have time turners back then. JKR could always have them be a recent invention. I doubt it she had that device in mind for LV's youth, but you never can tell.



Ydnam96 - Sep 27, 2005 7:44 am (#1322 of 2970)
I think that the time turner was specific to Hermione because it was needed for the plot of the story. Tom Riddle was many times more intelligent than Hermione I think, he was very clever, cunning, stealthy, manipulative, etc. I have no doubt that he could achieve whatever it is he wanted without the aid of a time turner.

Althoug, you are correct the thought of him have one is just frightening.



DM Havox - Sep 27, 2005 2:36 pm (#1323 of 2970)
TR having a time turner just opens a huge can of worms for me. I think it would be too powerful an object for him, being able to turn back time. I mean if he ever did die, he could go back in time and save himself, or keep himself from AK'ing Harry in the first place...



irish flutterby - Sep 27, 2005 5:57 pm (#1324 of 2970)
A good reason why I don't think he has one. Or any of the DE's, for that matter. It would be too easy, to turn back time and keep LV from AK'ing Harry in the first place.



zelmia - Sep 27, 2005 7:08 pm (#1325 of 2970)
DM Havox (interesting moniker) and Others, you may want to check out the Time Travel Thread for some very compelling evidence about why Voldemort/Riddle definitely did NOT possess a Time Turner.



DM Havox - Sep 27, 2005 8:26 pm (#1326 of 2970)
Being a forum newbie, I am so behind, I will bump it up the list zelma.



irish flutterby - Oct 17, 2005 11:45 am (#1327 of 2970)
I just finished rereading HBP, and noticed something that I hadn't noticed before. After Harry apperates back with DD, jKR wrote, in passing, about Harry having a seering pain inhis chest. Why did he have one after he apperated with DD, but not before? Was there more to the cave scene than we noticed. Is there something significant about Harry rubbing his scraped arm on the cave door? Did it have something to do with the inferi? Or am I just reading too much into it?



Phlegm452 - Oct 20, 2005 4:03 am (#1328 of 2970)
irish flutterby: I noticed the stitch in his chest too. I thought at first he messed up the Appartation and left a part of himself behind. But that wasn't it. I have no idea what it means, but your probably not reading too much into it.



haymoni - Oct 20, 2005 4:39 am (#1329 of 2970)
I read that part too.

I usually say that I have a stich in my SIDE - not in my chest.

I wonder if he was feeling a Voldy feeling. The DEs could have been entering Hogwarts at that moment.



Esther Rose - Oct 20, 2005 6:03 am (#1330 of 2970)
I looked over it thinking that the stitch in the chest was from the lack of breath Harry always felt when he apparated.

Between the tension, the swimming and the urgency to return to Hogwarts he may have forgotten to breathe. It might be that to apparate without taking one last breath is like dunking your head underwater without taking one last breath. Creating a stitch in the chest.



irish flutterby - Oct 20, 2005 2:49 pm (#1331 of 2970)
A possibility, I suppose. The thing that struck me was that she called it a "burning stitch" didn't she? Why burning? Cramp, maybe, but I wouldn't call that burning, really.



Choices - Oct 20, 2005 5:16 pm (#1332 of 2970)
It made me think of going outside on a freezing cold day and taking a deep breath - it makes your throat and lungs get a searing or burning feeling. It made me think it was cold out and Harry was out of breath.



irish flutterby - Oct 24, 2005 7:47 am (#1333 of 2970)
Aw, Choices. How come you gotta get so logical on me. Can't I just dream?



Choices - Oct 24, 2005 5:27 pm (#1334 of 2970)
Dream away Flutterby..... We can be logical another day, but for today we'll dream. :-)



Soul Search - Nov 4, 2005 2:23 pm (#1335 of 2970)
MORE "ODD" TRIVIA

We first meet Hagrid in SS chapter four, "The Keeper of the Keys." In that chapter, Hagrid introduces himself to Harry as "Rubeus Hagrid, Keeper of Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts."

In six books, we have never seen Hagrid with a key.



Mrs. D. - Nov 4, 2005 3:00 pm (#1336 of 2970)
Well he did have the "key" to calming Fluffy. LOL!



Tazzygirl - Nov 4, 2005 6:16 pm (#1337 of 2970)
Has this been said before?

In SS when Harry is at platform 9 3/4 and he overhears Mrs. Weasley asking Percy, Fred, George, and Ron what the platform number was? Wouldn't she know since she went to Hogwarts for seven years, AND almost all of her kids had been going for awhile? (I am currently re-reading and I finally caught this as being very odd...)



Choices - Nov 4, 2005 6:24 pm (#1338 of 2970)
In book one, Hagrid had the key to Harry's vault at Gringotts.



Soul Search - Nov 4, 2005 7:15 pm (#1339 of 2970)
Thanks Choices. I forgot that one.

That key, however, doesn't have a lot to do with Hogwarts, and, I if remember right, Hagrid says Dumbledore gave it to him (for the visit to Gringotts.)

That key and the cloak make me wonder what else Dumbledore was holding for Harry. And, is there anything in Harry's vault except a lot of gold?



I Am Used Vlad - Nov 4, 2005 7:33 pm (#1340 of 2970)
Tazzygirl, that has always bothered me, as well. I now think it was just JKR's way of introducing Ginny, Harry's future love interest, into the series.



Finn BV - Nov 4, 2005 7:59 pm (#1341 of 2970)
Tazzygirl, this came up not too long ago on this very thread. If I'm not mistaken, we came to the conclusion, that it was meant not only to introduce Ginny, but also to give her a chance to show off what platform number it is, even though she's not at school yet.

Soul Search, Keeper of the Keys may just be a job that goes along with being Groundkeeper. Think about it ? we haven't seen a key to a place in Hogwarts, but have we ever seen a place where a key is needed? True, there have been numerous keyholes, but Magic is used to lock them all. Keeper of the Keys probably implies "guardian" or something of that nature.



Tazzygirl - Nov 5, 2005 1:14 am (#1342 of 2970)
Vlad and Finn- makes sense to introduce Ginny that way, but it could have been done a little differently!

Like for example: "Hey, Mum! Here's the platform, 9 and 3/4! Can I go first, pleeeeease? Percy always goes first!" a little girl with bright red hair looked up at her mother. "No, Ginny." the plump woman said, with the same bright red hair. "Percy is a prefect, so he should go first." The girl, Ginny, looked down at her feet, a frown on her face.....

You know?



Mrs Brisbee - Nov 5, 2005 5:12 am (#1343 of 2970)
Mothers are always asking questions of their kids like Molly, in my experience. It's just so we can help them learn, not because we don't remember ourselves(well, usually). "Which street do we turn at?", "Where do we keep the good silverware?", "What is Grammy's phone number?". I took the scene in that way.



Tazzygirl - Nov 5, 2005 11:42 am (#1344 of 2970)
I guess it is just my practical side coming out... I totally took it as Mrs. Weasley having a memory charm performed! My mom would be the prime example of what you are talking about Mrs. Brisbee!



Pinky Prime - Nov 10, 2005 8:22 am (#1345 of 2970)
I was reading a book called ?A Spell for Chameleon? and it gave me an unusual insight on Harry Potter?s powers. There was a boy in the book who had magic but couldn?t identify it as it anonymity protected him better. This power always worked by chance coincidence. Eventually, he found out what it was. ?He could not be harmed by hostile magic?. It seems magic may have a mind of its own like the enchanted car that wanted its? freedom.

Maybe the charms and enchantments placed on Harry and his family works the same way. Something always comes to save Harry from dire straits. Whether it is the power within him, or creature intervention it is curious coincidence that something always seems to aid him. His magic seems to be directing him sometimes, instead of the other way around. Why?



irish flutterby - Nov 10, 2005 4:07 pm (#1346 of 2970)
Someone said that We haven't seen a place where a key was needed, but we did see a lock on a chain around the gate to Hogwarts when Harry walked with Tonks and Snape picked him up to walk him to the castle. Now, any of the teachers would probably be able to remove the lock with a flick or the wand, but, as Hagrid is "not allowed" to use magic, he would be the only one who'd need a key. Besides Filch, who I don't think they'd trust with a key to the grounds. Just a thought.



DJ Evans - Nov 10, 2005 4:58 pm (#1347 of 2970)
I don't know if this would count but there was that door in PS/SS where they had to used a key (Harry used a broom to catch one of the keys) to open the door to the next stage of getting to the PS/SS. And the spell/charm to open locks/doors wouldn't worked on it. As I said I don't know if that would count or not.

Later, Deb



Choices - Nov 10, 2005 7:01 pm (#1348 of 2970)
I thought of that one too DJ and also the one to the door where Fluffy was guarding the trapdoor. We didn't actually see a key, but it was locked and Hermione used "alohomora" to open it. I would imagine that all the greenhouses and the carriage house are kept locked, as well as various storagehouses for flesh-eating slug repellant, garden tools, etc. Hagrid must have the keys to all of them - either actual keys or magical keys.



me and my shadow 813 - Nov 11, 2005 3:30 pm (#1349 of 2970)
It's probably been mentioned, but JKR has stated by that "keeper of the keys" she meant he manages who enters and leaves Hogwarts.

ES: Hagrid?s Keeper of the Keys title: does that mean anything?

JKR: Just simply that he will let you in and out of Hogwarts, so it?s slightly more interesting than that but it?s not loads more interesting. So, again, that is something that people shouldn?t get too excited about.

It seems it's not going to be a big plot line, but it may be that with DD off school grounds, McGonagall may have Hagrid play more of a role in "security" in book 7...



Tazzygirl - Nov 11, 2005 6:03 pm (#1350 of 2970)
Also considering when Hagrid was being blasted with curses (in HBP) nothing happened to him. I think that will play some sort of role in book 7. (maybe Harry's protector?) hmmmmm...

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me and my shadow 813 - Nov 11, 2005 9:05 pm (#1351 of 2970)
My theory on Hagrid not being injured in that HBP scene is the blond DE wasn't really a DE. There are posts on it on Was Major Death Real thread from back in October...

But yes I'm sure Hagrid and Grawp will be a 'giant' help to Harry...



Choices - Nov 12, 2005 11:29 am (#1352 of 2970)
When Hagrid was fighting in OotP when Umbridge was trying to force him away from Hogwarts in the night (when McGonagall got blasted), nothing happened to Hagrid then either. Evidently giants have very tough skin and many curses just bounce off them. I think it was the same in HBP - Hagrid is just very tough.



me and my shadow 813 - Nov 12, 2005 9:01 pm (#1353 of 2970)
That's a good point, Choices.

I wonder why Hagrid hasn't been given permission to use his wand after the CoS mystery was solved. He still uses it in the umbrella, doesn't he? And it seems we don't usually see him involved in battles -- yet... Or am I forgetting something?



Tazzygirl - Nov 12, 2005 11:58 pm (#1354 of 2970)
Me and my shadow- I was wondering the same thing! I thought Hagrid would get a huge pardon from the ministry and give him full wizard status or something. He still has the pink umbrella, but I guess he still is not able to use it without getting in trouble... hmmm...



Choices - Nov 14, 2005 6:27 pm (#1355 of 2970)
I have also wondered about why Hagrid hangs on to the pink umbrella. Obviously he has no compunction about carrying it around - after all, who would dare call him a sissy? LOL On another thread we have discussed the color pink and how it symbolizes hiding a secret or something that is not what it appears to be. The pink umbrella sure fits that description. It is definitely not what it appears to be and it hides a secret.



Honour - Nov 14, 2005 9:17 pm (#1356 of 2970)
I think only the trio, the Weasley's, the Order and us the readers know and believe for sure, that Hagrid is innocent of the crime he was accused of 50 odd years ago. It seems that the way that the MOM deals with past mistakes made by them is to ignore them, ala Sirius and Stan Shunpike ooh and that old favourite, the actual return of Voldermort.



zelmia - Nov 26, 2005 5:54 pm (#1357 of 2970)
Hagrid had to have been pardoned to have been conferred Professor status at Hogwarts. At least, I would think so. And so far we haven't seen Hagrid in a situation that really required him to use his wand. After 60 years of doing everything 'by hand' one would get used to not using magic, I would imagine.



Matrona - Dec 4, 2005 4:39 pm (#1358 of 2970)
Okay, I've gone through this entire thread (seriously) and I have a few questions...

At the end of Goblet of Fire, when Harry's absolutely distraught over his ordeal, Dumbledore asks him to recount it verbally. Why couldn't Dumbledore help Harry extract the memory instead, so that Dumbledore could watch it in the Pensieve at his leisure while poor Harry got some rest?

Another thing, it says Tom Riddle had to return to his London orphanage every year, and we know his Hogwarts years fell during World War II. Didn't they evacuate children from London because of the war? Why weren't the orphans moved?

I also thought it strange that the matron would think of telling Dumbledore how Tom Riddle "rarely cried" as a baby. I don't get it... what's so important about that?

Finally, why did Dumbledore and company leave baby Harry on a doorstep? It was fairly late in the year so it was probably a cold night, and the baby had just survived an attempt on his life by a wizard who may or may not be dead/powerless, and who has plenty of powerful followers who are very much alive. What's more, little Harry was fifteen months old, so it's very likely he could crawl or perhaps walk. He could have gotten out of his basket and toddled off! "The Boy Who Lived... Just Long Enough To Wander Into Traffic/Fall Down A Well/Etc." I expect that Dumbledore wisely chose not to present Harry to the Dursleys in person, but what they did still seems really unsafe.



Choices - Dec 4, 2005 5:37 pm (#1359 of 2970)
One, I'm sure Dumbledore could have extracted that memory, but for some reason Dumbledore wanted (and Rowling wanted us) to hear it from Harry's own lips. Perhaps Dumbledore felt he could learn a lot more hearing it first hand. Seeing it happen would be good, but hearing Harry's impression of what happened was even more enlightening to Dumbledore.

Two, I think the children weren't evacuated because it was necessary to J.K. Rowling that they be there - not somewhere else.

Three, the not crying thing would probably signify a psychological problem. Tom Riddle, even as a baby, obviously needed no one and shunned physical contact. Babies often cry because they wish to be picked up and loved - Tom didn't. It is probably an early hint of the strange, evil, loveless man he would grow up to be.

Four, Harry is a wizard - a magical child - and we know that wizards seem to be sturdier and more immune to falls, punches, and accidents in general. I am also sure, even if it didn't say, that Dumbledore had protected the wee baby sleeping there on the doorstep with all sorts of spells and enchantments to keep him safe. I'm sure if a Muggle had walked by they would not even have noticed Harry there. Also, there may have been unseen eyes keeping watch over Harry until the Dursleys woke up and found him. (Mrs. Figg or Mr. Tibbles))



Elanor - Dec 4, 2005 10:14 pm (#1360 of 2970)
I do agree with all that you said Choices!

I would just add that DD possibly made Harry tell what happened because he knew it would do him some good to talk about it, even if it was painful: he had to "evacuate" all that. Which is exactly what (I think) he let Harry destroy things in his office at the end of OotP: here again, Harry had to pour out his heart so to be able to move on.

About the matron, I think that the fact Tom Riddle didn't cry as a baby marked her because she saw a lot of babies in her life and this was really unusual. There's something wrong with that kid that she can't explain but that worries her and she is happy that, for once, someone is ready to listen to her on the subject.



Maddest Dragon - Dec 5, 2005 12:17 am (#1361 of 2970)
I thought Dumbledore made it perfectly clear that he was asking Harry to talk about what happened, and talk about it right away, so he (Harry) could deal with it better. He said something to the effect of the pain would be worse if Harry put off dealing with it.

And I really don't think DD and company left Baby Harry unguarded. As for the cold, they probably bundled him up very well, perhaps even left him with something magical to warm him, rather like a warming pan in a bed. Or maybe a friendly cat (i.e. Mr. Tibbles, or perhaps another one of Figg's) spent the night curled up with him, keeping him warm and keeping a lookout at the same time. In any case, they'd have surely kept watch over him by magical means.

I do find it odd, though, that Tom Riddle had to return to the orphanage every summer. Couldn't arrangements have been made for him to stay, if not at Hogwarts, then somewhere in the WW? Unlike Harry, he didn't have a protective spell over him that required him to return to the Muggle world every year.



Matrona - Dec 5, 2005 7:25 am (#1362 of 2970)
Elanor: I would just add that DD possibly made Harry tell what happened because he knew it would do him some good to talk about it, even if it was painful: he had to "evacuate" all that. Which is exactly what (I think) he let Harry destroy things in his office at the end of OotP: here again, Harry had to pour out his heart so to be able to move on.

That makes sense. Well done.

About the matron, I think that the fact Tom Riddle didn't cry as a baby marked her because she saw a lot of babies in her life and this was really unusual. There's something wrong with that kid that she can't explain but that worries her and she is happy that, for once, someone is ready to listen to her on the subject.

That makes sense, also, but I still wonder why she didn't think of anything nice to say about Tom Riddle. He sounds like the kind of kid who would be helpful to adults, that fits with his later ability to charm and flatter people.

On the other hand, this might explain why Tom Riddle is so confrontational with Dumbledore. I think kids tend to become warped if everyone around them focuses on the bad things they do and never mention the good. I would find it hard to believe that Tom Riddle went eleven years and he never did a single thing that met with anyone's approval. If he did go that long without any approval or positive reinforcement, and on top of that everyone thinks he's crazy, it would be a miracle if he hadn't turned out to have problems. No wonder he's a sociopath. LOL



Choices - Dec 5, 2005 11:18 am (#1363 of 2970)
Matrona - "....but I still wonder why she didn't think of anything nice to say about Tom Riddle. He sounds like the kind of kid who would be helpful to adults, that fits with his later ability to charm and flatter people.?

I think Tom could have been charming and helpful if he had thought it would get him anywhere or something he wanted, but I seriously doubt he thought anyone or anything at the orphanage was worth the effort. I'm sure he got what he wanted by other, more devious means.



Choices - Mar 5, 2006 11:37 am (#1364 of 2970)
In book two, Nearly Headless Nick invites Harry to his 500th DeathDay Party and yet in book one (about the middle of chapter seven after the sorting ceremony) Nick tells Harry..."I haven't eaten for nearly 400 years." Another example of JKR's maths skill or can ghosts eat for the first hundred years they are dead? LOL



Finn BV - Mar 5, 2006 1:40 pm (#1365 of 2970)
Choices, this is one of those errors on JK's part, no way around it. She meant 500 years, as that is how long he has been dead.



John Bumbledore - Mar 6, 2006 7:34 am (#1366 of 2970)
Well, for myself, I sometimes miss counts how long ago something happened simply because it didn't seem that long ago in my memory by proportion. "Oh, I think it was just last week that I saw this wonderful quote by Dumbledore. **stops to do the math** Oh, wait! It was actually last year."

Now multiply by 100 or more for a ghost that has been marking time for over 500 years (time alive + time dead). Thus 100 years is less than one fifth of the of his memory.

<)B^D? John Bumbledore



Choices - Mar 6, 2006 10:44 am (#1367 of 2970)
So true John - I also lose all track of time and never think things happened as long ago as they did. Good thought.



haymoni - Mar 6, 2006 11:51 am (#1368 of 2970)
Yes, like we have been waiting for Book 7 for about 5 years now, right????



Choices - Mar 6, 2006 11:59 am (#1369 of 2970)
LOL Exactly!!



Finn BV - Mar 6, 2006 2:04 pm (#1370 of 2970)
LOL

I just found this by accident on the Lex, Edits and Changes to PS/SS:

PS p92/SS p123
"I haven't eaten in nearly four hundred years," said the ghost...
changes to?
"I haven't eaten in nearly five hundred years," said the ghost...
Because: This change brings the years that Nick has been dead in the first book in line with the fact that the next year he celebrates his 500th Deathday



Choices - Mar 6, 2006 6:04 pm (#1371 of 2970)
Wow, that's interesting Finn - thanks for posting that link.



MichaelmasGal - Mar 7, 2006 1:27 pm (#1372 of 2970)
It's always annoyed me that wizard's don't really have any form of fiction in their world. No fiction books, obviously no television or movies because of the electricity (though they do have radio so why they couldn't have those I don't know), no theatre, no other main sports. It just seems like growing up in the wizarding world might be kind of boring. Either that or lacking in imagination.



Catherine - Mar 7, 2006 1:44 pm (#1373 of 2970)
I think there is fiction in the wizarding world. I just don't think that Harry is a particularly motivated reader.

The Lex lists a comic book at this link [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Ron appears to read comics; I wouldn't call that reading great literature, but it appears to show that the wizarding world might have fiction.



Steve Newton - Mar 7, 2006 1:59 pm (#1374 of 2970)
Are you saying that you don't think that comics are great literature?



Catherine - Mar 7, 2006 3:08 pm (#1375 of 2970)
I haven't read the comics in the HP world, so I wouldn't know, Steve. Based on what I know about Ron, I'd sort of doubt it.

I was merely trying to avert arguments about "fiction" vs. "literature," LOL.



DJ Evans - Mar 7, 2006 5:02 pm (#1376 of 2970)
Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't it just at Hogwarts, where DD has put into place all the various protection charms/spells, that interfere with the electric appliances? That's why the Weasley's can have the radio etc...

But I do see what you are saying MichaelmasGal. The WW doesn't seem to have the same interests as the Muggle world does.

Later, Deb



Steve Newton - Mar 7, 2006 5:06 pm (#1377 of 2970)
I didn't think that Hogwarts' protection was the reason that electrical appliances didn't work. They just don't work well around magic.



Finn BV - Mar 7, 2006 6:43 pm (#1378 of 2970)
Yes, there's too much "magic" buzzing in the air for Muggle devices like a radio to work.

However, I understand Michalemas' point, and on a similar note want to know ? what could you really do for 11 years in your life, not going to school? I mean, I know that for 2 years of my life I didn't go to school ? but 11 years? What could you do then?



haymoni - Mar 8, 2006 7:11 am (#1379 of 2970)
Home-schooled kids don't go to school, but they are kept pretty busy.

Besides school, you'd have chores, you could fly on your broom, you could play with stuff from Zonko's, you would follow your favorite Quidditch team, you would play make-believe games, you would try to give your little brother acid pops...



Puck - Mar 8, 2006 7:49 pm (#1380 of 2970)
I was watching CoS and thought it strange that Harry seemed to be the first person to think about questioning Mertle. DD knew who it was that died, and I'm sure he eventually discovered that her ghost was lingering around the castle. Yet, no one seems to have figured out that the entrance is in that bathroom?



TheSaint - Mar 9, 2006 8:18 pm (#1381 of 2970)
I am betting Dumbledore had an inkling where it was...but as he was not the heir he was never able to access it to confrim his suspicions.



irish flutterby - Mar 12, 2006 6:52 am (#1382 of 2970)
okay, as I am new again to the forum, and trying to catch up on old threads, I thought I'd respond to this to start. Please forgive me if any of these questions are answered in other posts (I just haven't gotten that far.)

At the end of Goblet of Fire, when Harry's absolutely distraught over his ordeal, Dumbledore asks him to recount it verbally. Why couldn't Dumbledore help Harry extract the memory instead, so that Dumbledore could watch it in the Pensieve at his leisure while poor Harry got some rest?

It just seems like growing up in the wizarding world might be kind of boring. Either that or lacking in imagination.

Two comments. I seriously doubt that growing up a wizard is boring. We at least know of some fiction "literature." After all, there's always Gilderoy to read for a little light fiction!

I think it could be that it's important for DD to hear Harry's perception of things. He needed to know, not only what happened, but how it affected Harry.

I also thought it strange that the matron would think of telling Dumbledore how Tom Riddle "rarely cried" as a baby. I don't get it... what's so important about that?

I think this could be a way of demonstrating that LV was cold from birth. (which would detract from earlier theories on nurture, rather than nature, being the cause of his dementia)

Finally, why did Dumbledore and company leave baby Harry on a doorstep? It was fairly late in the year so it was probably a cold night, and the baby had just survived an attempt on his life by a wizard who may or may not be dead/powerless, and who has plenty of powerful followers who are very much alive. What's more, little Harry was fifteen months old, so it's very likely he could crawl or perhaps walk. He could have gotten out of his basket and toddled off! "The Boy Who Lived... Just Long Enough To Wander Into Traffic/Fall Down A Well/Etc." I expect that Dumbledore wisely chose not to present Harry to the Dursleys in person, but what they did still seems really unsafe.

As far as the followers, they may, very well have been off either looking for LV or running scared, or not fully aware of the situation. Harry never got hurt in any other way at the Dursley's that we know of (besides the occasional black eye). Maybe the magic that protects him does so in such a strong way that he is protected from accidental injury also. Also, at 15 months (if a mother is luckier than I have been) a baby is usually sleeping though the night. I imagine there was little chance of him randomly waking up if he was a good sleeper. Another option is that DD put some sort of sleeping spell over him to ensure that he wouldn't wake up. We know DD doesn't have to speak to cast spells.



haymoni - Mar 13, 2006 5:51 am (#1383 of 2970)
On Baby Tom not crying - I'm guessing a crying baby in an orphanage gets a lot more attention than one who isn't. If a baby isn't crying it is fine, so it doesn't need to be held or cuddled as much.

Again, Tom was left alone.



sugarstarshower - Mar 17, 2006 1:40 pm (#1384 of 2970)
This is my first post on the forum! Very Happy

I'm not too sure if this has been mentioned already, but how come the ministry doen't use owls to track down criminals? Owls can always find the receiver no matter where they are - seeing Harry could write to Sirius, even when he was hiding and Harry had no idea where he was, without having to write a full adress - so why don't they just send an owl to the wanted person and follow it?



haymoni - Mar 17, 2006 1:49 pm (#1385 of 2970)
sss - I asked the same question and somebody posted an earlier answer from JKR.

Just like a building can be made unplottable, so can a person.

So if Sirius or Voldemort or anybody else doesn't want to be found, there is a way for them to make themselves "unplottable".

I'm not very good at digging up JKR's quotes, but there is usually someone around here who is!!!!

Glad to see you posting!



irish flutterby - Mar 17, 2006 3:35 pm (#1386 of 2970)
Welcome SSS.

I'm sure that wizards would look for another "not electronic" way to do it, but it's not as if they can tag an owl and track it the way we do manatees or something.



Laura W - Mar 20, 2006 3:48 am (#1387 of 2970)
I didn't think that Hogwarts' protection was the reason that >electrical appliances didn't work. They just don't work well around >magic.


Right, Steve. Deb, the quote I have for that is something Hermoine said in GoF (chapter, The Madness of Mr. Crouch}:

"All those substitutes for magic Muggles use - electricity, and computers and radar, and all those things - they all go haywire around Hogwarts, there's too much magic in the air."

Laura



irish flutterby - Mar 20, 2006 5:09 am (#1388 of 2970)
So, would an electronic device work somewhere like, for example, the Borrow since the concentration would be much less?



Steve Newton - Mar 20, 2006 6:26 am (#1389 of 2970)
Certainly not if Arthur fiddled with it.



irish flutterby - Mar 20, 2006 12:37 pm (#1390 of 2970)
teehee. Thanks for the giggle Steve. I actually was also wondering if it was the magic that Hogwarts itself contained as an entity on it's own, or if it is the combined magic of all those who live/attend there that cause the interferance.



Amilia Smith - Mar 21, 2006 12:52 am (#1391 of 2970)
Welcome, Sugarstarshower. Haymoni summed up the answer to your question pretty much verbatim. The pertinent quote is from FAQ section of jkrowling.com:

In 'Prisoner of Azkaban', why couldn't the Ministry of Magic have sent Sirius an owl, and then followed it, to find him?

Just as wizards can make buildings unplottable, they can also make themselves untraceable. Voldemort would have been found long ago if it had been as simple as sending him an owl!

End quote.

No information on how to go about making yourself untraceable, though . . .

Mills.



Finn BV - Mar 21, 2006 6:08 am (#1392 of 2970)
See, the weird thing about that though is that Harry could send Sirius an owl. Can you make yourself untraceable to some people, but not others?



irish flutterby - Mar 21, 2006 8:31 am (#1393 of 2970)
Didn't Sirius send Harry an owl first?

Maybe in doing so Harry became "privy" to the correct info. Like being told the location by a secret keeper.

On the other hand, perhaps I am mistaken. In which case, ignore this post!



Finn BV - Mar 21, 2006 1:35 pm (#1394 of 2970)
Good point, irish, I think you're right.

However, going off topic a little (which I suppose is hard since the discussion name is so general), I wouldn't compare it to secret-keeping, because, at least in my understanding of it, once the Secret is told anybody could become "privy" to it, as you say. This is slightly different, but similar concepts.



irish flutterby - Mar 21, 2006 4:11 pm (#1395 of 2970)
What do you mean "anybody could become privy"? I thought it was only those who were told the location who could find it. In essence, Sirius "told Harry his location" (though it changed regularly) and so, Harry could find him. Sirius had also kept in touch with DD who could reach him via owl. I would imagine, however, that had Snape tried to locate Sirius via owl, he'd be sorely disappointed.

Much the same way that you "could be looking through the window right into there living room and never know it" if you weren't given the info from the secret keeper. In essence, Sirius was his own "secret keeper."



Finn BV - Mar 21, 2006 6:48 pm (#1396 of 2970)
See, I thought it was, once the Secret was told to one person, anybody could then find it out, not just the person to whom it was told, and anybody that they subsquenetly told.

After all, Wormtail didn't tell Hagrid where the Potters were, but Hagrid found them, or at least the destruction of the house.



The giant squid - Mar 21, 2006 7:33 pm (#1397 of 2970)
Finn, according to JKR, only the secret keeper can give away the secret. Someone who's been told the secret (i.e. Harry knowing about 12GP) can't pass that knowledge on to someone else.

The whole "How did Hagrid know?" thing is a big plot hole we're waiting for Jo to fill up. It's one of the many many things she needs to explain in book 7.

--Mike



Finn BV - Mar 21, 2006 8:01 pm (#1398 of 2970)
Gracias, Mike. I thought the Hagrid thing was left loose, and I remember seeing it around as a nitpicky thing fans want to know about!



geauxtigers - Mar 21, 2006 9:14 pm (#1399 of 2970)
Something that struck me as odd, well 2 things, the first being:

Why was the house destroyed? Did Voldemort try and blow it up? Harry was "taken from the rubble" (not exact quote), but was the house actually like destroyed? If Voldemort went in to kill, I suppose there could have been a battle. Okay, now that I just anwsered my own question, I'll leave it for others who thought this was odd....

Okay 2nd thing: Why did they have to give up quidditch for a whole year, just because they were having the triwizard tourney? Its not like its a very time-comsuming thing, theres like 4 total matches from September to June, surely the excuse that there wasn't enough time, couldn't work for this. I like quidditch, I'm a huge sports fan, maybe thats why, but I enjoyed reading about it and if I were at Hogwarts, I would have protested!



zelmia - Mar 21, 2006 10:55 pm (#1400 of 2970)
I've been thinking about Hagrid's knowledge of Harry's whereabouts at Godric's Hollow. There is always the possiblity that Hagrid knew all along that Wormtail was the Secret Keeper and - for once - was able to keep it to himself. But that does seem pretty unlikely.

Hm... I'll keep working on it...

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irish flutterby - Mar 22, 2006 2:24 am (#1401 of 2970)
iIts not like its a very time-comsuming thing, theres like 4 total matches from September to June, surely the excuse that there wasn't enough time, couldn't work for this.-geauxtigers

Actually, Quidditch and the TriWizard Tourney were very time consuming. If you recall, in several of the books Jo talks about how Harry barely had time for homework and studying because of Quidditch.

Also, Harry was the exeption, but I would imagine the other students spent every waking hour from the time they got the clue trying to solve it. That would be pretty time consuming as well. Quidditch might be too much of a distraction.

Plus, JKR said that she hates writing the Quidditch bits because there are only so many interesting things to do with a match. She said that she is really glad not to have to write one for book seven.



geauxtigers - Mar 22, 2006 5:43 am (#1402 of 2970)
Yeah, I see what you're saying Irish, but Harry does mention something along the lines of wishing he had quidditch to distract him in the time leading up to the first task. I guess that personally, I would be upset that there wasn't going to be quidditch.



haymoni - Mar 22, 2006 6:14 am (#1403 of 2970)
geauxtigers - I see what you are saying. If it was a regular AK, it should not have done that kind of damage.

I'm guessing it was Lily's protection that not only saved Harry, but caused the rebounded curse to be more than what it was originally.



Sconie Girl - Mar 22, 2006 7:45 am (#1404 of 2970)
I posted this on the "What will Harry find At GH" Thread, but it seems to fit the current discussion here more...

(We were discussing the Fidelius Charm and how it worked)

This could answer the Hagrid/Sirius question of how they knew where the Potter's were. Am I right in thinking that if you knew where the Potter's were before the charm was performed you'd still know afterward? But now you couldn't reveal the information. If this is correct, loads of people in the Order could have known where they were hiding, but couldn't reveal that information after the charm.



zelmia - Mar 22, 2006 9:19 am (#1405 of 2970)
That's what I've always believed, Sconie Girl. Surely the Fidelius Charm doesn't erase the information from the minds of those who already know it.
Though JKR recently explained a bit about the Charm, she (as usual) left out a few details that would have cleared up such inconsistencies as Hagrid/Sirius being the first on the scene.

Still, it seems odd that Voldemort should have wanted Dumbledore dead without some sort of attempt to "winkle" any Secrets out of him. Old Moldy Voldy must have known that Dumbledore would be a likely candidate to have carried at least a couple important Secrets.



Puck - Mar 22, 2006 9:35 am (#1406 of 2970)
bet if someone knew a location before the charm was preformed, they might know where people are, yet still be unable to find them. Likely DD and Hagrid knew they were at Godric's Hollow, but would not be able to see it/enter the house if they went there. I imagine also that the charm was destroyed along with the house. Thus, Hagrid was able to find little Harry.



Esther Rose - Mar 22, 2006 9:43 am (#1407 of 2970)
Or perhaps, well this is far from canon, perhaps Sirius was at the house with Hagrid. Sirius went into the house to retrieve Harry to give to Hagrid. Then, in the process, Sirius loaned his bike to Hagrid so that Hagrid could ride Harry to #4 Privet Drive.



Choices - Mar 22, 2006 10:11 am (#1408 of 2970)
Hagrid states that he took Harry from the ruined house himself. I think that eliminates Sirius as being the one who got Harry out.

Haymoni - "I'm guessing it was Lily's protection that not only saved Harry, but caused the rebounded curse to be more than what it was originally."

I agree with you Haymoni. It makes me think of what happened in the graveyard when Harry and Voldemort's wands connected. There was a tremendous amount of magical power there - very "explosive". I think Lily's protection caused the AK to almost explode when it hit Harry and then rebounded to Voldemort. That much magical power caused the house to explode/implode ..... whatever.



TheSaint - Mar 22, 2006 10:20 am (#1409 of 2970)
You have to wonder though...remember Harry having the impression the Dursley's thought he would blow up the house. Always made me think there was more to the kid than met the eye, also made me wonder just what DD wrote in that first letter to Petunia. We know tremendous things can happen when he becomes high agitated or overly emotional.



Choices - Mar 22, 2006 10:27 am (#1410 of 2970)
I think Petunia read that Lily and James died and that there was an explosion at their home. She just assumed that Harry had something to do with it and would probably blow up her house if he was left alone there.



TheSaint - Mar 22, 2006 11:33 am (#1411 of 2970)
See...I thought they were aware of Lord Voldemort killing the Potters.



haymoni - Mar 22, 2006 1:44 pm (#1412 of 2970)
I wish we had that letter!!!

And the one delivered by that earlier owl!!!



Sconie Girl - Mar 22, 2006 1:55 pm (#1413 of 2970)
zelmia--- JK said that you couldn't "force" THE SECRET from someone, even under torture or Veritaserum. So Voldy probably knew DD was in the know, but wouldn't willingly give up his secrets.

Puck--- I've always thought that once you knew the secret, the Potters (in this case) wouldn't be hidden to you any more, even after the charm was done. This would explain how Sirius knew where to go and knew he would find the Potters when he got there, same w/ Hagrid.



geauxtigers - Mar 22, 2006 1:58 pm (#1414 of 2970)
Sconie Girl, I agree with that, The members of the order knew where 12GP was, even though they weren't secret keepers. Saint, I think the Dursleys were told it was Voldemort too. They appeared, or at least they did to me, to have known about LV when Harry first discovers he is a wizard. I think that she thought Harry would blow the house up, just because he kept doing magic accidentally. For example growing his hair back and somehow landing on the roof at school. She was afraid more of him realizing this and using it to his advantage. (We know Tom Riddle did this at the orphange, though Harry wouldn't have been using magic in the same way, I'm just trying to make a point.)

Another thing that I thought was odd: I mentioned this a long time ago on a different thread, but does anyone think its weird that Harry never acknowledges the day his parents died? I know he can't remember them, but he never even mentions it. If it were me personally, it would be important to me.



Finn BV - Mar 22, 2006 5:23 pm (#1415 of 2970)
Why did they have to give up quidditch for a whole year, just because they were having the triwizard tourney? --geauxtigers

Another, annoying, reason is that the pitch had to be used for the third task, and remember that it sprouted high walls ? and these were grown over time, not made instantaneously through magic.



Puck - Mar 22, 2006 6:37 pm (#1416 of 2970)
Geauxtigers, Harry knows how and why his parents died, and to a young boy that would be more important, I think, than when. Observing the date of someone's death usually is not as likely if you were young when it happened. I don't think much about the date my dad died, as I was a baby at the time. I do know some things about him, and wonder what it would have been like to have him around. We all grieve differently. Plus, Harry grew up at first not allowed to mention his parents, and then being rather involved in chasing after a particular dark wizard. It tends to keep him occupied!



Choices - Mar 22, 2006 7:35 pm (#1417 of 2970)


TheSaint - Mar 22, 2006 11:33 am (#1410 of 1415) See...I thought they were aware of Lord Voldemort killing the Potters.

I believe the letter said that Lily and James died.....and I would suppose that Dumbledore explained under what circumstances they died.



irish flutterby - Mar 24, 2006 2:47 am (#1418 of 2970)
I thought that in one of the last two books (ack, can't remember...too early) when Petunia was going off on her little tangent and revealing just hw much she really did know, she said it served them right, being murdered, for getting involved with those kind of people.

Then again, it's 5:30 am. Maybe I'm just in a fog.



Choices - Mar 26, 2006 10:11 am (#1419 of 2970)
I found this last night as I was finishing my reread of COS - It is at the back of the Scholastic paperback version and is advertising the next book POA -

It says... "Harry Potter has to sneak back to his third year at Hogwarts after accidentally inflating his horrible Aunt Petunia...."

Obviously whoever wrote this didn't read the beginning of the book very carefully.



Finn BV - Mar 26, 2006 5:43 pm (#1420 of 2970)
Hehe Choices?? snicker??

Or? does Marge=Petunia?? Just like the Giant Squid=Dumbledore?



irish flutterby - Mar 26, 2006 5:53 pm (#1421 of 2970)
Maybe Marge is Petunia hit by an Engorgement charm gone awry!



The One - Mar 28, 2006 2:54 pm (#1422 of 2970)
I just had an idea!

One of the minor things considered a minor inconsistency in the PS book is: "How did Hagrid know wher the Potters lived without knowing that Peter was the secret keeper?"

In OotP we see that Harry learns the location of Order HQ by reading a note written by DD, the secret keeper. What if Peter, after being made secret keeper, was told to write a number of notes that was distributed to those who was to know, and that would self destruct after being read? He would have to write in a hand writing that was hard to identify.

Then Hagrid and DD will know where they live, but not need to know that Peter was secret keeper.

And, as the hole point of switching was to keep the identity of the secret keeper secret, it is very likely they would have found an excuse to use such a procedure.



geauxtigers - Mar 28, 2006 7:08 pm (#1423 of 2970)
Thats a really good idea, I can't believe no ones ever thought of that before! Its seems like the obvious solution to me!! Good find!



Solitaire - Mar 28, 2006 7:24 pm (#1424 of 2970)
That does not sound at all like something Dumbledore would advise, particularly in light of the fact that he suspected a traitor within the ranks of the Order. Since he was the one who advised the Potters to go into hiding and use the Fidelius Charm--and since he himself offered to be their Secret Keeper because of his concern for their safety--suggesting that notes containing the Potters' whereabouts be distributed to anyone at all seems highly unlikely to me. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire



Finn BV - Mar 28, 2006 7:42 pm (#1425 of 2970)
It's a smart idea, but I agree with Solitaire on the grounds that it's not very likely DD would have wanted notes being passed about the Potters' whereabouts. Owls can be intercepted, after all? and in that day and age?

But something along those lines may be the solution to this puzzle. I don't know why Wormtail would have wanted to tell Dumbledore the secret (then again, DD may have been in on the secret in the first place). Frustrating!



Solitaire - Mar 28, 2006 8:31 pm (#1426 of 2970)
Dumbledore already knew the Potters were in hiding. I think he also knew where the Potters were hiding, because I think he suggested the location. Just because he was not the Secret Keeper, does not mean he couldn't find the house. Ditto Sirius.

Remember that Dumbledore could simply tell Hagrid to go to the Potters' house and fetch Harry. He could not reveal the location of the house because he was not the Secret Keeper ... but perhaps Hagrid already knew the location. Perhaps Hagrid had been there before. He seemed awfully broken up by the news that James and Lily were dead and Harry was being placed with the Dursleys. I think Hagrid may have been a close enough friend to have visted the Potters.

Solitaire



Finn BV - Mar 28, 2006 9:39 pm (#1427 of 2970)
Okay, I get it Solitaire. Your explanation makes a lot more sense now!



The One - Mar 28, 2006 9:55 pm (#1428 of 2970)
Well, Dumbledore did use that method to spread information about the HQ, so he might not be totaly against it.

And, the Potters did not always comply with his advice anyway, as shown by the fact that he was not the secret keeper.

Third, the nature of the charm make it less important if you keep the information totally secret, as the spy can not bring the information on anyway.

The security of the charm depends on two things only:

1. You must either be sure that the secret keeper will not be forced to talk, that is you must either be sure that he can withstand any interogation, or be sure you will be able to keep their identity secret.

2, You must trust the secret keeper not to betray you.

As we all know point two failed miserably. Of course, you have a task making sure that the notes are only read by those they where intended for. As shown by the hall of propecies, that kind of magic exists.

Remember that the Potters might have had to stay in hiding for years. Telling a handfull of people would make them able to interact with other people get supplies etc without having to risk leaving the hideout.

We may disagree about how smart this would be, but the fact is they may have done this, we know from canon that similar things are done, and we no longer needs to assume any non-canon things about the charm being lifted under so and so circumstances. It can no longer be considered an error or even odd that Hagrid knew where to go, without knowing the identity of the secret keeper.



Finn BV - Mar 29, 2006 7:48 am (#1429 of 2970)
I'm still a little fuzzy on this. No wonder DD said it's a very complicated spell!

The only way you can find out is if you hear it directly from the Secret-Keeper, right? So Hagrid would have had to have heard it from Pettigrew, and not Dumbledore, or James, or Lily, or anybody else who was "in" on the deal.



haymoni - Mar 29, 2006 7:57 am (#1430 of 2970)
Unless he already knew their location before the spell was cast.



Puck - Mar 29, 2006 8:11 am (#1431 of 2970)
I don't think even those who knew where the Potter's house was would be able to see/find it unless the secret keeper told them. So, if DD or Hagrid knew ahead and then went there, they could stand right next to it and not see the house unless Peter told them the Potters were there. There is a difference between knowing where they are and being able to find them.

Now, once the house is destroyed and James and Lily dead, I would think the charm would break, for there would no longer be a point. I can see DD with some kind of magical alarm alerting him an explosion in GH. Hagrid could then go and find Harry without hearing from Peter, as the charm would be null and void.

Hope this makes sense!



Wizadora - Mar 29, 2006 8:25 am (#1432 of 2970)
Just a thought but everyone thought that Wormtail was dead - does this make a difference to how people could find it. Does magic know when someone has died? If it does then people would have known that the charm was still in place and that wormtail was alive. If not then that is how Hagrid was able to find it. The other option is that Wormtail lifted the charm to play into the idea that he was dead.



haymoni - Mar 29, 2006 8:36 am (#1433 of 2970)
I think they could find the house, but they wouldn't see the Potters inside.

I'll have to re-read the whole "nose pressed against the glass" quote, but I'm pretty sure that was the idea.

Voldy could go right up to the house, look in through the windows, but he wouldn't see the Potters there.

However, somebody that already knew they were there would be able to see them.

I think JKR needs to clarify this.



Steve Newton - Mar 29, 2006 8:37 am (#1434 of 2970)
I mostly think like Puck, that the secret was the whereabouts of Lily and James and since there is no longer a Lily and James, there is no secret. (I will skip over the possibility that there is no longer a Harry.)

Wizadora does bring up an interesting point. If Peter is dead does the charm change in any way? If it does Peter would be trapped since if no change were noted it would indicate that he was still alive. He didn't particularly want most people to know this.

I had a most brilliant continuation of this thought but it has slipped away. I know I had Peter trapped somehow but can't remember how. The world will now be a lesser place.



Choices - Mar 29, 2006 10:39 am (#1435 of 2970)
I'm sure it has been discussed that if Lily (assuming she did) cast the charm and Lily dies, the charm is lifted? Perhaps it doesn't just have to do with the Secret Keeper, it has to do with the one who actually cast the charm - once they are dead, the charm is dead.



Solitaire - Mar 29, 2006 11:19 am (#1436 of 2970)
Actually, we know that Sirius was able to find the house, because he tells us so in the Shrieking Shack scene in PoA. When he found Peter's hiding place deserted and there was no sign of a struggle, he got worried and went to GH. So he obviously knew how to get there.

Back to the note business ... I believe the HQ of the Order is still considerably less "sensitive" than the hiding place of Lily and James. And remember that immediately after Harry saw the note, it was destroyed. It was written for him, I think, so that he could concentrate on it. The Order members would have understood how this worked and would not have needed a piece of paper on which to concentrate.

I still do not believe the Potters' location was ever written down for anyone in the Order ... and I won't believe it until Jo tells us it was so.

Solitaire

PS Steve, I am concentrating really hard, so that you can remember that piece of wisdom you wished to impart to us!



John Bumbledore - Mar 29, 2006 11:37 am (#1437 of 2970)
"Perhaps it has to do with the one who actually cast the charm - once they are dead, the charm is dead." - Choices "Things which struck you as 'odd'" #1434

So, the more important question is, who cast the Secret Keeper spell for the Headquarters of the Order? That goes a long way to explaining why Jo said she didn't know why we wanted to know what happens when the Secret Keeper dies! If Dumbledore cast the spell, then number 12 Grimmauld Place may again be visible! Just as the petrificus totalus spell on Harry was released upon DD's death.

Jo's answer to the FAQ Poll was what struck me as odd. Now I believe I understand why she use Peter and hidding the Potters for her example!

<)B^D? John.Bumbledore



Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 29, 2006 12:37 pm (#1438 of 2970)
When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else.

Just in case you have forgotten exactly how the Fidelius Charm works, it is

"an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it" (Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)

In other words, a secret (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else ? not even the subjects of the secret themselves ? can divulge the secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information.

The nature of J.K. Rowling's response seems to indicate that despite Dumbledore's death the Fidelus Charm cast on 12 GP remains in place unlike other spells which seem to cease upon the death of the caster.



Solitaire - Mar 29, 2006 12:54 pm (#1439 of 2970)
John, I responded to the same issue you posted over on the 12 GP thread.



zelmia - Mar 29, 2006 2:38 pm (#1440 of 2970)
So basically we're back to needing to understand exactly what the Fidelius Charm entails. Specifically:
Who performs this Charm? Does he/she have to have a certain skill/power level or can anyone do it?
Can or Does the Secret Keeper perform it on himself? If so, again, is there any requisite power level?
Do certain people need to be present to "witness" the Charm (a la the Unbreakable Vow)?
If so, do those present automatically partake of the Secret in some way? (I'm guessing not, but...)
If only the Secret Keeper can reveal the Secret, why were Ron and Hermione so hush-hush about where they were in their letters to Harry at the beginning of OP? ("We can't tell you where we are...") Or was that an example the Charm coming into effect?
Could Pettigrew have revealed the Secret about Godric's Hollow (i.e. mentioned it to Dumbledore or Hagrid in pasing), but because no one knew he was the Secret Keeper, they thought the information was still safe?

EDIT: Sconie Girl, I agree with you there.



Sconie Girl - Mar 29, 2006 2:38 pm (#1441 of 2970)
I still contend that the answer to Siruis, Hagrid, and DD knowing where the Potters where was they had knowledge of it before the charm was done. They didn't "lose" this knowledge, only now they couldn't tell anyone or "reveal the secret".

This also begs the question, if DD was discussing the possible places to have the Headquarters for the OotP, did he discuss this w/ Snape prior to doing the charm? Could Snape at one point have had the knowledge and not been bound by the charm from revealing the information to Voldy?



The One - Mar 29, 2006 2:39 pm (#1442 of 2970)
Nathan. What we do not know is if the caster and the secret keeper is the same person. If they is different persons, what happens when the caster dies may be different from what happens when the secret keeper dies.

In the HBP we see an example of a spell that is liftet when the caster dies. We do not know if all spells work that way, I think, but as Harry concludes from the fact that the spell is lifted that Dumbledore must be dead, it seems like it is not uncommon.



Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 29, 2006 3:02 pm (#1443 of 2970)
The One I would assert that there are charms and spells that survive the death of the caster the permanent stick charm that Mrs. Black used on her portrait, I would argue that the Fidelus Charm falls into this category.



Amilia Smith - Mar 29, 2006 4:28 pm (#1444 of 2970)
I still contend that the answer to Sirius, Hagrid, and DD knowing where the Potters where was they had knowledge of it before the charm was done. They didn't "lose" this knowledge, only now they couldn't tell anyone or "reveal the secret".

I disagree, on the basis that Narcissa and Belatrix most surely knew where dear old Aunt Walburga and Uncle Orion lived, but they never showed up at Number 12 Grimauld Place. Even assuming that they would not know that this was now the Order's new Headquarters, they did know that Sirius was an Order member, and they never thought to look at #12 for him. After Kreature showed up on Narcissa's doorstep, at least, she should have been able to put two and two together and swung by #12 on her next trip to London. Unless she somehow lost the knowledge of where dear old Aunt Walburga's place was.



haymoni - Mar 29, 2006 4:41 pm (#1445 of 2970)
I think she could go to Auntie Walburga's, but she wouldn't see anyone there.

Also, I'm sure Dumbledore added protections on top of what Mr. Black already had in place.



zelmia - Mar 30, 2006 1:39 am (#1446 of 2970)
What would be the point of going alone to the headquarters of your enemy? Maybe she was just afraid they would blast her to smithereens.



Sconie Girl - Mar 30, 2006 8:36 am (#1447 of 2970)
What's to say that after the DE broke out of Azkaban they didn't visit #12 (I believe this was half way through GoF, I haven't read that once since last year). It was a pretty disgusting place when the Order took over at the start of OotP. They may not have wanted to stick around.

Also, why would they think that just because Sirius is in the Order that #12 must be the Headquarters. Even Kreacher going to Narcissa doesn't 100% "give it away". Sirius could have hidden out there while he as on the run and mentioned his feelings for Harry in front of Kreacher.



The One - Mar 30, 2006 9:10 am (#1448 of 2970)
The big breakout from Azkaban was halfway through OotP. Then a lot of them was arrested again after the DoM battle at the end of OotP.

LV did not rally his DE's uitill the end of GoF, and the Order put up HQ in No. 12 GP shortly after. The only active DE that has had the opportunity to visit No 12 prior to that is Wormatil and Barty Jr. Barty is no longer among us.



Sconie Girl - Mar 30, 2006 10:01 am (#1449 of 2970)
Thanks...I couldn't remember when that happened.



Finn BV - Mar 30, 2006 11:28 am (#1450 of 2970)
I think she could go to Auntie Walburga's, but she wouldn't see anyone there. --haymoni

I agree, it's like looking into the Potters' house and not being able to see them.

I think this discussion should be commenced at the new thread (below the Movies section) Fidelius Charm.

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Post  Mona on Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:41 am



Amilia Smith - Mar 31, 2006 6:44 pm (#1451 of 2970)
OK, yeah, I know I should go over to the new thread, but I wanted to clarify what I meant earlier.

While I do not think Belatrix and/or Narcissa knew that #12 was the Headquarters, they did know that Sirius was staying there; at least after Kreature's visit they knew. As they were also on the look-out for Sirius, they should have gone over to #12 to try to find him.

I think she could go to Auntie Walburga's, but she wouldn't see anyone there.

This makes sense, but why then would Dumbledore have evacuated Headquarters when it looked like Belatrix may have inherited the place?

Mills.



haymoni - Mar 31, 2006 6:55 pm (#1452 of 2970)
If I were Bella and I was able to get into #12, I would just start blasting things. She may not be able to see anyone, but I'm guessing an AK would still kill anyone who was there.



Magic Words - Mar 31, 2006 7:41 pm (#1453 of 2970)
I wouldn't put it past Bella to do something like that. However, it's not all that logical. She can't see the people there or even know how many are there, but they can all see her. She wouldn't last long at all and her chances of actually hitting someone would be very remote.

I have wondered, however, what keeps someone who's not a secret-keeper from telling Voldemort "you might want to consider blowing up this part of town over here."



haymoni - Apr 1, 2006 5:12 am (#1454 of 2970)
Yes - something vague, but something that does the trick.

Unless of course, magic is not fooled by such nonsense!

It is MAGIC after all!!!



Choices - Apr 16, 2006 12:40 pm (#1455 of 2970)
Was watching Chronicles of Narnia yesterday and noticed that the castle where Aslan crowns the children kings and queens is called Paravel Castle. In Harry Potter HBP, the ring belonging to the Gaunts had a stone with the Peverell coat of arms on it. The names are so similar I wonder if JKR got the idea from the Chronicles of Narnia, and I still wonder what significance the Peverell's have in the HP story? Surely JKR didn't just mention that name and we'll never hear of it again.



Gemini 13 - Apr 18, 2006 10:07 am (#1456 of 2970)
It could be something she just mentions the once. Think about Mark Evans, that name jumped out of us because of the Evans surname, but it led to nothing. So its possible it was just a name and nothing more.

I know this has been mentioned before somewhere else (don't remember where) but it always bothered me that every year they arrive at Hogwarts on September 1st and the following day is always a monday. Whats up with that?



Choices - Apr 18, 2006 4:57 pm (#1457 of 2970)
JKR has her own ideas about calender dates. It's her world and she can make Sept. 1st a Monday if it suits her and she can laugh about it all the way to the bank. LOL



Magic Words - Apr 18, 2006 5:31 pm (#1458 of 2970)
Gemini 13, I never even noticed that until it was pointed out to me. And I call myself a fan.

....slinks away in shame....



virginiaelizabeth - Apr 18, 2006 10:17 pm (#1459 of 2970)
Haha Choices!! I agree, it if brings home the bacon, then I guess its ok for her to do it!!Still it does bother me, but then again I'm a little OCD!



haymoni - Apr 19, 2006 4:59 am (#1460 of 2970)
You are in the right place then!!!



journeymom - Apr 19, 2006 8:28 am (#1461 of 2970)
Mmmm. Bacon. See, I was going to say the same thing, that JKR just does it because she can. Maybe it's more of her bad 'maths'. She never in her wildest dreams imagined when she wrote SS that she'd have obsessed fanatics dissecting her works forwards and backwards, eight ways to Sunday.



haymoni - Apr 19, 2006 9:26 am (#1462 of 2970)
Yes, sometimes I wonder if she just says - "Hey, it's my book and I'll write whatever I want!"



virginiaelizabeth - Apr 19, 2006 10:17 pm (#1463 of 2970)
Has anyone thought about how DD is always saying "I trust Hagrid with my life" and he also says this same thing about Snape "I trust Severus Snape"?? Has Hagrid done something in the past(besides being a suspect for the opening of the chamber) that would make DD need to verbalize to others that he trust Hagrid. I realize that DD is always being asked if he trust Hagrid and Snape. We know about Snape and his former DE thing, but is there something about Hagrid that we don't yet know about, that would cause his trust to DD to be questioned? No one has ever thought to question DD's trust in McGonagall or Flitwick, so why is it different for Hagrid?? I just thought it was odd.



zelmia - Apr 19, 2006 10:26 pm (#1464 of 2970)
I think it's only because Hagrid tends to be a bit unfocused when it comes to things that he should pay more attention to. Remember how easy it was for the Trio to get Hagrid to tell them about Fluffy? And then Hagrid sent Harry and Ron to talk to Aragog, not realising that Aragog wouldn't see the boys as anything other than a free meal.
Though Hagrid doesn't ever mean any harm, he also doesn't always think things entirely through. And I think this is what is meant whenever anyone questions Hagrid's abilities. His loyalty is never ever in question - at least not that I can recall. Only his common sense.



Amilia Smith - Apr 19, 2006 10:41 pm (#1465 of 2970)
That, and his giantess mother. Which does not worry, say, McGonnagal, but does Fudge.

Mills.



Choices - Apr 20, 2006 9:46 am (#1466 of 2970)
I think Dumbledore would definitely trust Hagrid with his life....just not certain information. LOL



Magic Words - Apr 20, 2006 10:16 am (#1467 of 2970)
Exactly, Choices. Just as he trusts Snape with information, but not his life!



rambkowalczyk - Apr 22, 2006 5:24 am (#1468 of 2970)
Regarding the fact that Sept 1 always starts on a Monday. I believe this is true for the fifth book. And the lexicon timeline implies that this is always so. (See commentary for OOP timeline) But if you look at the lexicon timeline for POA the school starts on a Wednesday.

So I think we have our first urban legend.



virginiaelizabeth - Apr 22, 2006 8:18 am (#1469 of 2970)
Hmmm that's wierd that everytime it starts on a monday, except for PoA..........



TheSaint - Apr 22, 2006 9:27 pm (#1470 of 2970)
The leaflet from the Ministry: Protecting your home and family against Dark Forces. I found it curious that all (with the exception of one)the security guidleines seem to be hints of what is to come.

1. Advised not to leave the house alone...DD takes Harry. 2. Journeys should be completed before nightfall....They always seem to arrive just at nightfall. 3. Review of Security measurements..I think we are told several times about the security upgrades, and Harry does side-along apparition. 4. Security question..we know the Weasley's...and DD's, the only thing we don't see is someone using polyjuice...or did we**? 5. Friends acting strangely may be under imperious...Hello Rosemerta! 6. Should the dark mark appear over any building...so much for not entering and contacting an auror. 7. Death Eaters using Inferi..and they they were.


*I should like to think if the Order member we are about ot get to know better is Aberforth and he is full of information..and can read...we may have found the culprit!!! LOL

(But if he is DD..then we will never know what happened to those goats!)



virginiaelizabeth - Apr 23, 2006 11:31 am (#1471 of 2970)
4. Security question..we know the Weasley's...and DD's, the only thing we don't see is someone using polyjuice...or did we**?- TheSaint

I'm not sure what you mean by this...

I think that JKR did this on purpose to foreshadow waht would happen. Too bad there isn't anything about faking death.....



TheSaint - Apr 23, 2006 12:15 pm (#1472 of 2970)
Since the rest was used, I am suspicious that either someone is not who they say they are...or someone will not be who they say they are.



Steve Newton - Apr 23, 2006 4:01 pm (#1473 of 2970)
We did see the Polyjuice Potion used. Crabbe and Goyle used it while standing look out for Draco.



Choices - Apr 23, 2006 5:04 pm (#1474 of 2970)
Maybe they threw that in because of Barty Crouch, Jr. fooling everyone? It could happen again, of course - Constant Vigilance!!!!



Steve Newton - Apr 23, 2006 5:30 pm (#1475 of 2970)
We've now seen Polyjuice Potion used in 3 books, COS, GOF, and now HBP. That's quite a few times. Personally I think that we have seen the last of it but I wouldn't bet a lot on it.



zelmia - Apr 23, 2006 11:59 pm (#1476 of 2970)
Virginia, Elanor is referring to the "mollywobbles" password that Arthur used. The Ministry encouraged people to have a household password that only people in the house would know. Arthur told Molly not to let him in until he gave the password.



virginiaelizabeth - Apr 24, 2006 1:23 pm (#1477 of 2970)
OOOOOHHH thanks I forgot about that!!



Die Zimtzicke - Apr 24, 2006 5:04 pm (#1478 of 2970)
What struck me as most odd about HbP is not only were lots of things I liked in other books that were missing, but that is completely contradicted so many things we'd leaned in other books.

Example: How many times have we been told that you can't apparate in Hogwarts? (Elves can, yes, but Jo said they were different than humans.) The just because he feels like it, Dumbledore can allow apparation lessons in the Great Hall, and Draco, when he's explaining about the cabinets verifies that Montague apparated out of it into the Hogwarts toilet. I don't like things like that.

By the way, did we ever decide if the pieces of Hagrid's wand were definitely hidden in his pink umbrella?



rambkowalczyk - Apr 24, 2006 5:48 pm (#1479 of 2970)
The reason because you can't apparate in and out of Hogwarts is because there is a particular spell or charm that is on the Hogwarts property. It really isn't that unrealistic that this charm or spell can be modified so that one can apparate in the great hall.

As to Montague apparating in the toilet, I would have to agree with Die Zimtzicke. Montague was stuck in limbo land between the two cabinets. We can only assume he had his wand to be able to get "out." We have to assume that whatever Montague did it wasn't Apparation. Is it possible for a human to do house elf magic? Who knows? It's either a possible mistake or an important clue in book 7.

This has got me thinking about the Vanishing Cabinet. What was it used for before Peeves broke it? Previous to this I just thought the Vanishing cabinet functioned as a huge dumpster (big trash bin). I just have visions of Filch throwing out the garbage and Borgan wondering why there was garbage in his cabinet every day.

As far as the umbrella goes I had definitely decided it has Hagrid's wand.



virginiaelizabeth - Apr 24, 2006 8:14 pm (#1480 of 2970)
This has got me thinking about the Vanishing Cabinet. What was it used for before Peeves broke it?

Thats an intresting question, I've thought about it some but I can't really come up with an answer. It's a really Strange thing to have in a school, yet the students all seem to know what it does....Fred and George said that they pushed Montague in "that old vanishing cabinet" or something like that so they knew waht it was and what it would do.



zelmia - Apr 24, 2006 11:18 pm (#1481 of 2970)
Well, anyone who's ever seen a muggle magic show knows what a Vanishing Cabinet does. Since the wizarding version actually does what a muggle magician is trying to replicate, I don't find it that odd that the Hogwarts students knew what the cabinet did. However, I do agree that it does indeed seem a rather strange object/mechanism to keep around a school.



LooneyLuna - Apr 25, 2006 5:49 am (#1482 of 2970)
Montague was damaged mentally by apparating into Hogwarts from the Vanishing Cabinet, so I think the anti-apparation spells worked. They just didn't work they way I expected. Instead of being bounced back into the cabinet or spliched, he ended up head first in a toilet and brain damaged.

Interesting to see what would have happened if Montague had tried apparating into Borgin & Burkes instead of Hogwarts.



Choices - Apr 25, 2006 9:42 am (#1483 of 2970)
Maybe it's one of those things that makes your head ache - perhaps inside the Vanishing Cabinet is sort of like being in limbo - the cabinet is in Hogwarts, but inside the cabinet is sort of "no-man's land" - it may be the proverbial exception there is to every rule. Montague was technically inside Hogwarts, but at the same time he was in the cabinet (in limbo), so he was able to initiate the apparition in there, but ran into trouble completing it to his destination and ended up in the bathroom mentally confused - he sort of splinched his brain to a minor degree. Then again, maybe some things are just not meant to be understood. **goes to take some aspirin**



Puck - Apr 25, 2006 4:56 pm (#1484 of 2970)
Choices, the really scary thing is that I understood that!



Choices - Apr 25, 2006 5:01 pm (#1485 of 2970)
Uhhhh, that is scary! LOL @ Puck!



virginiaelizabeth - Apr 26, 2006 1:01 pm (#1486 of 2970)
Ahhh yes zelmia, I I have never thought about it being similar to the muggle version. I just thought it was something that JKR made up, but now I see it's not that wierd for them to know what it is! I just didn't see it that way.

Choices: I get what you are saying,but I also think this could be a JKR mistake, because even if he could apparate out, he wouldn't be able to get into HW, because you can apparate inside the grounds. I don't know maybe your right and its just not meant to be understood.



Choices - Apr 26, 2006 6:24 pm (#1487 of 2970)
virginiaelizabeth - "....he wouldn't be able to get into HW."

But, the Vanishing Cabinet is already in Hogwarts. It's difficult to explain, but I look at the Vanishing Cabinet as being sort of like the Vatican. It is inside the borders of Italy, but it's also a separate country. The Vanishing Cabinet is inside Hogwarts, but inside the cabinet is a seperate space that is not Hogwarts - it's sort of a void or limbo....a portal, if you will. It is neither here nor there - it's just inside the cabinet. The laws/rules of Hogwarts may not apply when you are inside the cabinet, so you would be able to apparate out. The problem would be when you hit Hogwarts space and that, perhaps, is the problem Montague encountered when he landed in the bathroom and suffered mental confusion.



Madame Pomfrey - Apr 27, 2006 8:01 am (#1488 of 2970)
Sorry to mess up the flow of conversation but..I am currently rereading OoP and am sort of disappointed that we are not shown Hermione's initial reaction to Harry's hand being sliced open by the toad.She offered murlap tentacles for comfort but was already aware of what was going on.Darn,I really would have liked to see her reaction.Why was that part omitted and who told her?



TheSaint - Apr 27, 2006 8:12 am (#1489 of 2970)
Ron of course, when Harry went to detention, she probably told him what was really going on.



Madame Pomfrey - Apr 27, 2006 3:28 pm (#1490 of 2970)
Thats what I thought too. I still wish I could have seen her reaction,McGonagalls too,had she been told.



virginiaelizabeth - Apr 27, 2006 4:33 pm (#1491 of 2970)
Ohh I would have lovveed to see what McGonagall's reaction would have been. That would have been a good read!! I wonder what she wopuld have done? Probably tell DD or confront Umbridge about it. Then I'm sure Umbridge would have passed a new degree stating that no teacher can contradict anything she says or does.



geauxtigers - Apr 27, 2006 4:36 pm (#1492 of 2970)
yes of course, when in doubt, change Wizarding law to suit your own personal needs!



geauxtigers - Apr 30, 2006 1:37 pm (#1493 of 2970)
I keep coming across this and keep forgeting to post it so here goes:

Sirius still has his wand after Azkaban, I find it odd that he would have it after escaping. Makes more sense to take the prisoners wands away from them berfore entering the prison, right?



The One - Apr 30, 2006 1:58 pm (#1494 of 2970)
When Dumbledore invites Harry to follow him to the cave, he asks Harry to fetch his cloak.

But Harry has standing orders always to carry his cloak, and has done so for all the book. Why does Dumbledore assume he need to fetch it?



Steve Newton - Apr 30, 2006 4:28 pm (#1495 of 2970)
While Sirius has a wand I don't think that it was his wand from before going to Azkaban. He doesn't seem to have a wand throughout POA.

The One, a conundrum. Perhaps Dumbledore simply wanted to give Harry a chance to speak with Ron and Hermione.



Choices - Apr 30, 2006 6:18 pm (#1496 of 2970)
Yes, when Sirius is in the Shrieking Shack with Lupin and the trio, he always uses someone else's wand. I can't remember a reference to Sirius having a wand until the MOM battle in OotP. Anyone with a better memory than me (almost all of the forum members), correct me if I'm wrong. LOL Did he use a wand while at Grimmauld Place?



virginiaelizabeth - Apr 30, 2006 8:08 pm (#1497 of 2970)
ummm, I think the first time we see him with a wand is at the MOM, I think there is some movie contamination here, because in the movie, he had a wand the whole time. Soeaking of, how did he get a wand, because he couldn't just waltz into Ollivanders and buy one, and if the wand choses the wizard wouldn't it be hard for someone else to buy him one?



wynnleaf - Apr 30, 2006 8:09 pm (#1498 of 2970)
When Dumbledore invites Harry to follow him to the cave, he asks Harry to fetch his cloak.

But Harry has standing orders always to carry his cloak, and has done so for all the book. Why does Dumbledore assume he need to fetch it?

Of course, we don't know why. But I tend to think DD knew that Harry would want to get away for a few minutes, while DD also wanted time without Harry for a few minutes. It is of note that DD did not tell Harry to come back to his office, but to meet him downstairs.

As regards Sirius' wand, I always assumed the Order got him a new one. DD is close to Olivander after all.



virginiaelizabeth - Apr 30, 2006 8:12 pm (#1499 of 2970)
I think he wanted to tell Snape that the plan was goin down tonight, and of course he couldn't tell him that with Harry around,plus he had to get Order members to Hogwarts as well. just my opinion.



geauxtigers - Apr 30, 2006 8:20 pm (#1500 of 2970)
I agree Virginia, in regard with Sirius' wand, he had one in Grimmauld Place because the whole thing that sparked my mind to put it here was that he pulled it out when Snape was there to tell Harry about occlemency and I was like woah! how'd he get a wand? But yall are probably right I'm sure an order member got it for him, but still the wand chooses the wizard... just got me wondering thats all no biggy probably not worth the trouble of discussing.

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Post  Mona on Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:46 am



zelmia - Apr 30, 2006 9:44 pm (#1501 of 2970)
Actually, way back in Book One, when Harry meets Draco at Madame Malkin's, Draco tells Harry that his mum is down the Alley "looking at wands [for Draco]". Even though 'the wand chooses the wizard', there are surely some occasions when the wizard in question cannot be present and orders a wand via owl order or has someone collect it for him. If Sirius could buy Harry's Firebolt without difficulty, presumably he could also pick up a new wand.



haymoni - May 1, 2006 5:08 am (#1502 of 2970)
I always wondered if wizarding children had wands earlier than age 11.

I could see the Malfoys buying Draco a wand early on.

If a cherry wand with a unicorn hair core was the wand for you at age 8, would it still be the wand for you at age 11???

If so, you might be able to pick up one similar to it - it might not have hair from the SAME unicorn, so maybe it would be different.

Or perhaps Narcissa just likes to look at wands and Draco was to join her there later.



wynnleaf - May 1, 2006 5:26 am (#1503 of 2970)
Well, speaking of odd things and wands, and children younger than 11, I was reading the other day about when Ron described the twins trying to get him to make an unbreakable vow. Ron was only 5 at the time. So the twins would have been maybe 7? But they'd have needed a wand to do it.

So that means Fred and George, using a wand, doing what looks like somewhat mature magic, at age 7. Not totally surprising, given the twins, but odd nevertheless.



frogface - May 1, 2006 5:29 am (#1504 of 2970)
They did grow up in a house full of Wizards though. They could have stolen Arthur, Molly or Bill's wands.



Choices - May 1, 2006 9:45 am (#1505 of 2970)
Virginiaelizabeth - "I think there is some movie contamination here, because in the movie, he had a wand the whole time."

Watch POA again and I think you will see that Sirius did not have a wand - he was using one of the trio's wands in the Shrieking Shack. That is the only scene we see him in when he uses a wand.

The only instances we have read about kids using wands was at the Quidditch World Cup in the camp grounds - a small boy had gotten hold of his father's wand and was engorging a slug, I think it was. I tend to think kids are not supposed to have wands until they are ready to start school at Hogwarts.

Draco's mother was only looking at wands - it doesn't necessarily mean she bought Draco's wand without him trying it out first.



zelmia - May 1, 2006 1:02 pm (#1506 of 2970)
Okay, first of all, here is the exact passage:
"My father's next door buying my books and mother's [sic] up the street looking at wands," said [Draco]. - PS/SS Ch 5 - Diagon Alley

Draco's mother was only looking at wands - it doesn't necessarily mean she bought Draco's wand without him trying it out first. - Choices

True, but then what would be the point? I mean if Draco (or anyone else) has to pick his own wand - or rather, have the wand choose him - why bother "looking" at them at all? What would make more sense is that Narcissa would oversee his robes fitting, then the two of them head along to Ollivanders.

Also, Mr Ollivander's remark about the wand choosing the wizard is very off-hand. I'm not sure how literally it's meant to be taken.



Choices - May 1, 2006 5:42 pm (#1507 of 2970)
It's certainly possible that Narcissa chose a wand for Draco, but since it does not specifically say one way or the other, then we may all interpret the comment as we like. :-)



zelmia - May 1, 2006 9:35 pm (#1508 of 2970)
Tis true, we may indeed.

Did we mention this before? I always thought it odd that in Book One, Harry keeps his broom in the broomshed near the Quidditch Pitch. But this is only mentioned once - just before he flies into the forest to overhear Snape and Quirrell's confrontation. Seems like all other mention of Harry fetching his broom takes him to the dorm to get it.
Now before you say, "Well he didn't want to keep his top of the range broom in the shed where anyone could get it" in fact he did just that. So at what point did Harry start keeping his broom in the dorm?

Also, in CS, Harry is nearly given detention by Filch for tracking mud (via his wet and dripping quidditch robes) through the corridors. How Harry got mud on his clothes while flying is another question. But I find it odd that, in nearly every other mention of Harry's attire for quidditch practice, Harry and his teammates use the "changing" room to change into and out of their quidditch robes.
If this is the case, I can almost sympathise with Filch. There are change rooms provided and Harry should have used it instead of "befouling the castle".



Laura W - May 2, 2006 3:33 am (#1509 of 2970)
geauxtigers wrote: "... but still the wand chooses the wizard... just got me wondering thats all no biggy probably not worth the trouble of discussing."

It's as worth discussing as anything else we talk about on the Forum.

Ok, in PS, Ollivander does say that the wand chooses the wizard - as we all know -, but he says something else. He says, "And, of course, you will never get such good results with another wizard's wand." Not as good results ... which doesn't mean it won't work at all apparently.

For the first two years of school Ron used Charlie's old wand. And for the first five years of school Neville used his father's wand. And, in the Shrieking Shack (PoA, p. 248, Cdn. edition), Sirius was able to use Ron's wand for "Expelliarmus" against Harry and Hermoine. He was also going to use it to kill Peter until Harry stopped him and Lupin. Anyway, the point is that obviously it is possible to successfully use a wand that hasn't chosen the wizard, but I assume it doesn't work as perfectly as one that had. (Sounds like a loophole to me, and it makes me slightly uncomfortable.)

I agree that someone else (DD?) must have gone and bought Sirius the wand he brandished against Snape at 12GP in OoP. Sirius couldn't leave the house, on Dumbledore's orders.

And, by the way, in PoA, Sirius did not physically personally purchase the Firebolt for Harry. He had the whole wizard world looking for him after his break-out, after all. He sent the clever Crookshanks to buy the broom:

"There is something I never got around to telling you during our brief meeting. It was I who sent you the Firebolt - Crookshanks took the order to the Owl Office for me. I used your name but told them to take the gold from Gringotts vault number seven hundred and eleven - my own. ..." (chapter Owl Post Again)

I can just picture a giant orange cat showing up at the Quality Quidditch Supplies store with a note in its mouth; a note which said to take out a bunch of galleons from a certain vault and send the Firebolt to Mr. Harry Potter at Hogwarts School. And the owner of the shop just calmly accepts this and does what the cat has "told" him to?? In keeping with the subject of this thread, that in itself strikes me as odd.

Laura



TheSaint - May 2, 2006 6:05 am (#1510 of 2970)
The cat went to the mailowl store and gave the note to the clerk to tie to an owl. Now...why they would allow withdrawls from an escaped felons bank account, is a little weird.



rambkowalczyk - May 2, 2006 7:22 am (#1511 of 2970)
Perhaps Gringotts is like the proverbial Swiss bank accounts where all is needed is an account number or key to access your money. The bank doesn't necessarily have know who the owner of the key is.



haymoni - May 2, 2006 7:26 am (#1512 of 2970)
I remember reading that theory once before. The goblins wouldn't care who banks with them.



The One - May 2, 2006 7:43 am (#1513 of 2970)
I have always imagined that there is some sneakoscope like device that in a magical way knows if the request for withdrawal is OK or not.

Then we can imagine that

1) THe bank does not care that the Ministry is looking for the guy, as long as it is the right person.

or

2) That the magical device accepts because Sirius is inocent. In a magical way it knows that this IS ok, even if the Ministry thinks otherwise.

In any case, the Goblin handeling the request doesn't care, he just holds the note close to some device and will get a GO or a NO from the thing.

THis is one of the "odd" things in the book I have never had problems with accepting.



zelmia - May 2, 2006 11:02 am (#1514 of 2970)
Nor me, haymoni. If there's only one bank in the entire society, it seems the bankers (goblins) would be willing to make a certain amount of allowances - even if one of those is banking normally with an escaped convict.

Actually, part of me thinks Rowling is using Sirius purchasing Harry's firebolt as a sort of precedent; a method of explaining that there are other ways (yes, Owl Order is one of them as well) to obtain things besides going down to Diagon Alley in person.



haymoni - May 2, 2006 11:08 am (#1515 of 2970)
What I think is stranger is the person at the Quidditch Supply shop that sent the broom to Harry.

I'm guessing this cat shows up with a note to take money out of a vault to pay for a broom for Harry Potter.

Wouldn't that ALONE cause a stir at the shop??

"We've just sold a broom to Harry Potter!"

You'd think they might ask who was sending it, but once they found out there was enough gold in the vault to cover it, they may have cared even less than Gringott's!



Soul Search - May 2, 2006 11:22 am (#1516 of 2970)
Laura W,

Your quote from PoA, "Owl Post Again."

"I used your name but told them to take the gold from Gringotts vault number seven hundred and eleven - my own. ..."

The underscored part IS NOT IN MY AMERICAN VERSION! (First Scholastic trade paperback printing, September 2001.)

What version was it in?

Could be a clue to something. Vault 711 must be near 713, where the stone was kept. Harry inherited the contents of Sirius' vault in HBP.

Just what is Harry going to find in vault 711?



virginiaelizabeth - May 2, 2006 12:57 pm (#1517 of 2970)
I don't have it either!! in the U.S. edition it just says " There is something I never got around to telling you during our brief meeting. It was I who sent you the Firebolt. Crookshanks took the order to the Owl Office for me. I used your name but told them to take the gold from my own Gringotts vault."(433 U.S. Hardback copyright on mine is 1999)

When I read your post Laura, I thought it was odd that you said vault 711, because I didn't remember reading that.hmmmmmmmm.......



The One - May 2, 2006 1:02 pm (#1518 of 2970)
I read the UK version, there the vault number 711 is given.

As the Author is british I tend to consider the UK versions as the "most canon". Thus it might be relevant that the two vaults are closed. But I wonder: Does JKR review the edits done before the printing? Or is her control less stringenty with the US version? I cannor imagine that she has as much personal control with the Norwegian, Spanish, German, Japanese versions as she has with the british, but how about the American?

I doubt very much that stuf found in the US version but not in the UK one is relevant, but the other way around? I do not know.



geauxtigers - May 2, 2006 1:45 pm (#1519 of 2970)
That is interesting it caught me off guard too when I read your post, Laura. This is one of the reasons that I think they should just leave the UK and US versions the same, causes speculation and gives us clues that probably lead to nothing. 711 rings two bells with me the convenice store 711 and its 2 away from 713 hmmmmm.... But frankly I think its very stupid that they think we Americans can't understand British english! Its like the same language with a few minor things here and there but come on none of us live under rocks we aren't stupid! They have even gotten more British in the last 3 which I like it adds something to it if you ask me! What was 'mom' in SS became 'mum' in GoF! I can understand little kids but still they are capable of catching on... now that I've gone completely off topic.... I would like to say I find it odd too about the firebolt, but honestly I don't think its major more of like you said, Zelma to show other ways of buying things!



journeymom - May 2, 2006 3:39 pm (#1520 of 2970)
In the Lexicon's page for each book there's a side-by-side comparison of differences between the British and American versions. The above anomaly is noted. Not sure what it means. But there are long lists of differences between the British and American versions of all six books.



Laura W - May 2, 2006 3:52 pm (#1521 of 2970)
Edited May 2, 2006 5:24 pm
Soul Search wrote: "Laura W, Your quote from PoA, "Owl Post Again." "I used your name but told them to take the gold from Gringotts vault number seven hundred and eleven - my own. ..." The underscored part IS NOT IN MY AMERICAN VERSION! (First Scholastic trade paperback printing, September 2001.) What version was it in?"

Canadian hardcover, published by Raincoast Books, 1999; PoA, chapter twenty-two, p. 315.

virginiaelizabeth wrote: "When I read your post Laura, I thought it was odd that you said vault 711, because I didn't remember reading that.hmmmmmmmm......."

And it seems you didn't. I wonder why Scholastic left that out. Kind of interesting that you Americans were not given this piece of information that the British, Canadians and Australians were.

geauxtigers wrote, "...causes speculation and gives us clues that probably lead to nothing." Yep, that's probably it. (chuckling)

Laura



Die Zimtzicke - May 3, 2006 11:53 am (#1522 of 2970)
Could Sirius have had a vault under a different name? Could this even have still been in the vault that his Uncle Alphard left him when he died?

I don't think the goblins care who owns a vault or deals with them, as long as they're getting their cut, but it's a thought. After all, all you need is a note and a key, because we know Molly could get in Harry's vault to buy things for him in GoF. Didn't she buy his dress robes for him?

I also want to go on record as saying they should leave the American and British editions the same. There is another passage in the tower scene in HbP that's causing just as much speculation as this one about the gold. It's ridiculous.



TheSaint - May 3, 2006 11:35 pm (#1523 of 2970)
Reading recently, I noticed the comment about Bill's wounds. It was stated that cursed wounds never heal. Does this mean that Harry's scar is not healed? I mean, the word 'scar' implies to me healed, but if curse wounds do not heal, then is it really? Could it reopen?



zelmia - May 4, 2006 12:20 am (#1524 of 2970)
Maybe they just mean that one is haunted by them, regardless of the physical wound having healed.



wynnleaf - May 4, 2006 5:18 am (#1525 of 2970)
Was sectumsempra a curse? Snape told Draco that if they used dittany (I think) it might not even scar.



Amilia Smith - May 4, 2006 1:09 pm (#1526 of 2970)
Maybe "never heal" means "this will leave a scar that you will never be able to get rid of?"

Mills.



virginiaelizabeth - May 4, 2006 1:19 pm (#1527 of 2970)
That's what I always thought that it meant. Scars are proof that a wound never truly healed completely. If something is completely healed, then there is no scar.



geauxtigers - May 4, 2006 2:16 pm (#1528 of 2970)
Not sure where to put this its just something I noticed, I have no theory what so ever nor do I think there is anything to it, I just thought I'd mention it for the heck of it. When Umbridge catches Harry for DA stuff, and brings him to DD's office, they start talking then a portrait speaks up and DD addresses him as Fortescue. Wonder if theres any relation to Florian Fortescue's ice cream parlor in Diagon Alley?

By the way I agree with Virginia about the scars.



Puck - May 4, 2006 4:02 pm (#1529 of 2970)
Oooo, good catch! I hadn't noticed. Most likely a relative. Or perhaps he opened the ice cream place once "retired". It seems to make more sense than the DE's wanting ice cream!



Choices - May 4, 2006 5:17 pm (#1530 of 2970)
Definition of Scar - "a mark left on the skin by the healing of injured tissue."

If an injury has not healed, it is still referred to as a wound. When it has healed, a scar marks the spot where the injury was. A scar means that the injury has healed....at least in the medical field.



Mediwitch - May 4, 2006 6:24 pm (#1531 of 2970)
I'm not sure if this is a relevant distinction, but Bill's wounds were not made by a curse, so while they are "cursed (a verb) wounds", they may not be the same as "a curse wound" (a noun) which resulted in Harry's scar.



virginiaelizabeth - May 4, 2006 7:38 pm (#1532 of 2970)
Yes I definately think that there is a difference, Harry's scar came from a curse, while Bill's came from a bite, that caused it to be cursed. they are two different things.



TheSaint - May 5, 2006 9:36 am (#1533 of 2970)
Yes...I can quite make the distinction. Both are however the result of a curse, one an AK the other the curse afflicting the werewolf that bit him. Both are cursed wounds.



Puck - May 5, 2006 10:12 am (#1534 of 2970)
I think the difference is that a curse caused Harry's wound. The bite marks are not from a curse, but from a cursed individual. As if the curse were venom, a poison from the bite.



TheSaint - May 6, 2006 4:05 pm (#1535 of 2970)
I am trying to relate that the bite would not have occurred were it not for a curse.....



Choices - May 6, 2006 6:32 pm (#1536 of 2970)
But, doesn't a werewolf become a werewolf from being bitten by another werewolf - is there a curse involved? I mean a magical curse, not just the curse of being a werewolf? How did the first werewolf become what he is - was he cursed by a wizard? I mean, where or how did it all begin? Just curious....



Die Zimtzicke - May 6, 2006 8:10 pm (#1537 of 2970)
In some legends, a person can become a were-animal voluntarily. (Not all countries have werewolves. There are supposedly were-bears in Scandinavia, were-jaguars in South America, and were-leopards in Africa, for example. Werewolves are purely Eastern European as far as I know.) I once read an old legend about an Indian peasant who used magic to transform himself into a were-tiger so he could become a great hunter. He taught his wife the spell to change him back, and went out hunting in his tiger form. When he returned the wife was so frightened to see a huge tiger creeping up on her she forgot about it being her husband and started to scream. He lost his temper and killed her, and was trapped forever as a tiger. It was used to explain why certain tigers hate humans.

There are MANY other versions of how one becomes a were-animal. Not all of them are fueled by the bite of another were-creature. In one legend, you could become a were-animal if you drank water from one's footprint. In some legends, it travels through the family line.

So, until we know exactly what legends Jo is stirring together here, we can't say for sure about that. She did have Riddle say Hagrid was raising werewolf cubs under his bed, which was a totally off the wall thing to say, in my personal opinion.



Puck - May 7, 2006 4:46 am (#1538 of 2970)
Very interesting! Thanks for the information. That was a questionable comment, but unlike things stated by DD, I think such statements from Riddle are far from solid truth.

*wanders off wondering what would happen if a werewolf had babies*



So Sirius - May 7, 2006 7:32 am (#1539 of 2970)
Why Glasses?

I'm a bit confused, well frankly, about many things in Jo's world, but I don't understand how in one book she can re-grow bones and in another a Wizard can't grow back a leg or finger or the such. But, if a Wizard can perform such outstanding magical feats, how come a Wizard can get sick at all, or lose limbs or what's primarily concerning me, why do Wizards need to wear glasses at all? Why can't some spell be done to correct the vision?

Either Jo wanted glasses in the story because they're instrumental to Harry's character and well, they do give DD his unique look, but is there more to glasses and who wears them in her books and why Wizards can't correct the things listed above, than meets the eye... or eyes?



Choices - May 7, 2006 9:17 am (#1540 of 2970)
I agree that Tom Riddle was not being truthful about the werewolf cubs.

About the glasses - you would think that Madame Pomfrey could fix Harry's eyes if she can shrink Hermione's teeth and regrow bones, but it may have to do with time. Time matters in magic and it may be that after 11 years, it is too late to do anything. If Harry could have seen Madame Pomfrey immediately, she probably could have done something, but after a significant passage of time, the problem is too old to fix. Actually though, I think the bottom line is that certain problems are put in by JKR to advance the storyline - like Harry's eyes, Moody's leg and magical eye, Lupin being a werewolf, etc.



virginiaelizabeth - May 7, 2006 9:17 am (#1541 of 2970)
But, if a Wizard can perform such outstanding magical feats, how come a Wizard can get sick at all, or lose limbs or what's primarily concerning me, why do Wizards need to wear glasses at all? Why can't some spell be done to correct the vision?

Well firstly, a wizard is human and there are still germs in the wizarding world, so of course they can get sick, the difference is that they can cure it in about 3 seconds with a special potion, so it seems like they don't get sick.

The limbs is another story, we can re-attach limbs in the muggle world so why can't they do it in the wizarding world. That does seem a bit odd.

As for the glasses, I'm sure that there is a way to fix ones vision, Jo just simply likes it this way. Glasses show a flaw in Harry and DD, and makes them more realistic characters. Still, like I mention above, we can do Lasik eye surgery int he muggle world, so why can;t the Wizarding world produce an antidote?

The only thing I can think of is just sheer technology, The stories take place in the early to mid 90's and even in the muggle world, limb reattachment and Lasik were either not there or very uncommom. I always thought of the wizarding world being behind the muggle's technology wise.



Detail Seeker - May 7, 2006 12:11 pm (#1542 of 2970)
It seems, as if structures can be regrown by magic if the surrounding structures (e.g. muscles and bands in regowing bones)still exist. Regrowing a severed limb seems to be too complex. Shrinking teeth deals with existing structures as well. This should provide a pattern for resizing eyes, thus removing the necessitiy of glasses, but not for regrowing them (as in Moody´s case). So, the unability to make glasses unnecessary seems to be dictated by a plot plan, not by the system of magic. Muggle medicine cannot reattach limbs, that have been severed for too long or is too much destroyed, either. And we do not know, in which state Moody´s leg was, when he lost it.



Solitaire - May 7, 2006 1:27 pm (#1543 of 2970)
So Sirius, a year or so ago, there was a thread devoted to eyes and glasses. I can't remember its exact title--I think Round Pink Spider started it--but perhaps it is archived. If it is, maybe one of the hosts knows the title and where you can find it. Just a thought ...

BTW, I've always believed that Moody considered his eye, the missing chunk from his nose, and his wooden leg as "badges" of honor that he earned fighting DEs. I've just assumed he wouldn't have had them "fixed," even if he'd been presented with an opportunity to do so. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire



So Sirius - May 7, 2006 7:55 pm (#1544 of 2970)
Solitaire, I would very much like to see that thread.

It just seems so odd to me really... there's a potion, spell or the such for just about anything. You'd assume, I suppose, that fixing vision would be quite simple, in most cases, for Wizards. That's why I assume there's something in Jo's plot that has certain people wearing glasses, for reasons we come to find later. Unless it's simply a matter of her own decision, where it means nothing at all. I do find it curious though.

Does anybody have a list of who wears glasses in her story. I know of Harry, DD and McGonagall (all Gryffindors) are there others?

As for Moody, well, he's a bit of an eccentric and perhaps he does wear his limb as a badge of honor. I mean LV grew a whole body back, you'd assume a leg or even a bit of a nose wouldn't be difficult for St. Mungos to conjure up.



kaykay1970 - May 7, 2006 8:00 pm (#1545 of 2970)
Aurthur and Percy Weasley wear glasses as does Trelawney and Rita Skeeter. If I can think of any more I'll add them later...



zelmia - May 7, 2006 9:14 pm (#1546 of 2970)
May I just point out that, with regard to Hermione's teeth, on that occasion a jinx/curse/spell had caused them to elongate in the first place. I believe Madame Pompfrey simply gave the counterjinx/curse.

As far as regrowing a limb, consider this: There is no spell to bring back the dead. Perhaps, as in real life, if the limb is re-attached immediately there would be a chance for a full recovery. But if not, the limb is in essence, dead and therefore, as Dumbledore says, no amount of Magic will ever save it.

Glasses seems to be just as commonplace in the Wizarding World as it is in the Muggle one. Again, in real life, there are very specific - and limited - criteria that qualify a person for medical procedures that can actually correct his/her degrading vision. The result is that many, many Muggles are wearers of glasses, at least part of the time. With this in mind, Wizard specs wearers doesn't seem so strange, at least not to me, at all.



Elanor - May 7, 2006 9:21 pm (#1547 of 2970)
I agree Zelmia, and let's not forget that glasses also have a symbolical meaning as we often said on the alchemy thread:

"The famous alchemist Michel Maier (end of the 16th century) said that the nature was for the alchemist buried in his researches "a guide, a stick, some glasses and some lamps."

The glasses were named "perspicita" in Medieval Latin (which means "see through" or "give a piercing look"), it gave afterwards the French word "perspicacité" (insight, perspicacity). Here, the glasses symbolize the sharp look of the alchemist searching for the secrets of nature. It also symbolizes moderation itself, someone able to distinguish what is vital from what is excessive." (from post #472, archived alchemy thread)



TheSaint - May 7, 2006 10:35 pm (#1548 of 2970)
I believe Jo has stated that she 'wanted a hero with glasses.' Simple as that. Though I tend to think that Harry has some 'seeing' ability, possibly from his mother, and the glasses keep him in 'this realm' so to speak. LOL



Soul Search - May 8, 2006 5:20 am (#1549 of 2970)
I wonder if some glasses aren't, themselves, magical. In the cave, Dumbledore seemed to be able to "see" the spells that had been placed there. Could it have been his glasses?



So Sirius - May 8, 2006 7:37 am (#1550 of 2970)
Let me state that I'm not opposed to glasses in the least, actually I quite prefer them on most people.

I appreciate you all comparing real life and what's available in reality to this book she created where Wizards can perform really unbelievable feats. To question why she chose to repair a bone or turn back time or all the fabulous things she does and wonder why she didn't include something so obvious and what to me seems like the simpler of some of the things they've done in the story, to cure vision problems, seems so odd and I was looking for something that could explain it.

Perhaps it really is a matter of Jo not thinking about this when writing. I suppose we can just explain it away by saying that it's the one of the very few things that wizardry can't correct, it is easier than pointing out Jo might have missed something.

I would like to believe that all these wizards have something in common we'll come see.

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geauxtigers - May 8, 2006 1:13 pm (#1551 of 2970)
Just my opinion, but I don't think the whole glasses thing is a big deal, JKR wanted a hero with glasses and thats what she did. I don't think its got anything to do with being able to fix eyesight by magic, I mean lets face it, the story wouldn't be the same if Harry or any of those people didn't wear glasses.



Die Zimtzicke - May 8, 2006 2:46 pm (#1552 of 2970)
It's true that with regard to Hermione's teeth, a jinx/curse/spell had caused them to elongate in the first place, but Madame Pompfrey clearly did not simply gave the counterjinx/curse, because Hermione let her carry on, to make them smaller ands straighter. A counter-curse would have returned them, I think, to the way they were. Wouldn't it?

Remember...Hermione said her parents wanted her to use braces, and she commented on the fact that they didn't think magic and teeth mixed well. So the teeth were not just returned to their original state. They were completely changed, and Hermione knew her parents would probably not like it, but she did it anyway.

Which brings me to one thing I thinkis odd...why does Hermione have so little contact with her parents? I know she wants to fit in to her NEW world, but if I paid for a ski trip for example, and one of my kids wanted to bug out on me, when I had not seen them for months, I'd be furious with them.



kaykay1970 - May 8, 2006 3:22 pm (#1553 of 2970)
I have wondered that myself. Her long absences from home in the latter books could be due to the fact that she is Harry's friend which might make her a target. Her parents, as muggles cannot put up proper wizarding defences.



geauxtigers - May 8, 2006 4:46 pm (#1554 of 2970)
Which brings me to one thing I thinkis odd...why does Hermione have so little contact with her parents? I know she wants to fit in to her NEW world, but if I paid for a ski trip for example, and one of my kids wanted to bug out on me, when I had not seen them for months, I'd be furious with them.

I agree, I would be mad at my kid and probably would make them go. I also don't see how she doesn't miss them! Is this just me personally or I mean wouldn't anyone miss their parents after that long stretch of time? I think so! Its been months and shes barely home over the summer before turning up at the burrow 12GP ect. She is there before Harry I mean gosh thats just horrible to her parents I'd think unless they hate each other and we just don't know it...



Choices - May 8, 2006 5:49 pm (#1555 of 2970)
Since Hermione is a (die-hard believers close your ears) fictional (gasp) character (I can't believe I said that!), she can't exactly behave in a traditional way. Not to mention, she is a witch on top of it all. She and her parents unfortunately belong to two very different worlds. Also, her parents are professional people with time consuming jobs. Hermione spent nearly 11 years in a world where she did not belong - finally she discovers her place in the Wizarding World and she wants to get to know every aspect of it. She has made two wonderful friends and I think her parents are great to allow her the freedom to explore her new world. I'm not saying it's easy for either one of them, but perhaps her parents are the kind of people who realize what an extraordinary child they have and want her to find her place in her world. A difficult sacrifice at best, but I think they are brave to let her go her own way. It's not like they never see her, but I think they realize how happy she is at Hogwarts and with Ron and Harry. Besides, since she is a fictional character, it is probably best that she spend more time being a part of the main story than with her parents. **fictional character??? - I shouldn't have said that! I should not have said that!!!! - goes to wash mouth out with soap**



geauxtigers - May 8, 2006 5:55 pm (#1556 of 2970)
Ha Ha, Choices, fair point, I guess what I'm saying is if it were me I'd feel differently and plus JKR can do what ever she sees fit and its her choice, but I dunno just not what I'd choose. Plus half the time Hermione is at Ron's while Harry isn't even there so like I said I dunno.... could be considered like the kids in the muggle world going to summer camp for the whole summer...



Holly T. - May 8, 2006 6:42 pm (#1557 of 2970)
Hermione loves to write letters, so I'm sure she writes to her parents. The books are from Harry's point of view--does he ever ask Hermione how her parents are doing? No. I think this is one of those cases where there is more going on behind the scenes than we are made aware of.

Although I'd love to have her parents, the dentists, somehow be involved in battling the Rotfang Conspiracy. ;-)



Mediwitch - May 8, 2006 6:44 pm (#1558 of 2970)
There are a number of boarding schools in the area of Connecticut where I live; many students stay all year, then go off to camps, etc. for the summer. Personally, I wouldn't have wanted to do that as an adolescent, and I'm glad my kids didn't, but it is not uncommon!



haymoni - May 9, 2006 9:30 am (#1559 of 2970)
Yes, I think part of our problem is we don't understand the English boarding school system.

I just think it is weird that even when she CAN be with her parents, she chooses not to.

It is entirely possible that Dr. & Dr. Granger are self-absorbed people who had little time for their daughter (hence her propensity to dive into books) so if she wants to spend more time away from them, all the better.

I sincerely hope that this is not the case, but it would be interesting to ask Jo about this.



zelmia - May 9, 2006 9:57 am (#1560 of 2970)
Haymoni, forgive me for asking but, you think it's odd that a teenager would rather not spend time with her parents? Particularly when the chance to spend time with her boyfriend is on offer?



Esther Rose - May 9, 2006 10:14 am (#1561 of 2970)
I always thought that Dumbledore probably requested to have Hermione spend time with the Weasleys (or under a wizarding eye) for protection. I think that Ron and Hermione are almost as equally in danger as Harry is just for being Harry's closest friends. Hermione's parents would not be able to protect Hermione very well if Voldemort or a Death Eater decided to go after her. Constant Vigilance!



journeymom - May 9, 2006 12:20 pm (#1562 of 2970)
Jo's books are FULL to the brim of little inconsistencies. Some of them bug me, most do not. Some I'm able to ignore, some I cannot. I don't know why, but Hermione's relationship with her parents, or lack thereof, always trips me up. I notice it and wonder why. It seems like if Jo simply needed this Hermione character to be with the Harry character a lot to be supportive, than she should have written at least a small explanation as to why she spends so little time with her parents. Something like,

"Hermione, what are you doing here at Ron's house? Don't your parents miss you?" Harry said.

"Oh, certainly I miss them," she answered. "But if I weren't here I'd probably be in chemistry camp or math camp."

Maybe it's simply like mediwitch and haymoni said, it's the difference between boarding school (particularly British) and US public schools.



geauxtigers - May 9, 2006 12:36 pm (#1563 of 2970)
Haymoni, forgive me for asking but, you think it's odd that a teenager would rather not spend time with her parents? Particularly when the chance to spend time with her boyfriend is on offer?

I'm 16 and I don't think I could ever be away from my parents as much as Hermione is with her and she doesn't seem to be the type to hate her parents. I'm sure this is just me, but I don't know it would be really hard for me just going to a bording school like Hogwarts, but I'm guessing I'm not in the majority here!

Anyway, Journeymom, I think that would have been a good way of solving it and I also think DD is trying to keep a watch on her.



haymoni - May 9, 2006 12:59 pm (#1564 of 2970)
It's just such a loooong time to be away from your parents.

I guess if I had the choice to be in the magical world or the muggle world, I would pick the magical, but I think at some point my father would have said, "Enough is enough! Get your butt home now!"

I'm guessing muggle children would not have had much tolerance for Hermione, so it isn't like she has friends at home that she misses.

I seem to recall someone saying that it is easier to write stories about orphans because there aren't any parents to get in the way. Maybe it is just easier to write about Hermione this way.



Die Zimtzicke - May 9, 2006 1:07 pm (#1565 of 2970)
Jo said her parents were not in the story because they were boring, but she's one of the main characters, and the fact that she is muggle born is a major plot point. I don't know why we couldn't just have one or two more sentences occasionally about her contact with them.

She's a teenager now, but she wasn't at the start, and even so, all mothers who would rather let their 13, 14, or 15 year old daughters stay with a boy her age from school instead of seeing you over the Christmas and/or summer break, without any argument at all, raise your hand.

Looks for hands... Still waits for hands... Didn't think so! {;-)

I confess... it still bugs me when my 23 year old daughter does that! So shoot me.



Magic Words - May 9, 2006 1:10 pm (#1566 of 2970)
As someone who goes to college out-of-state and just got a summer job on campus, meaning I won't be home nearly all summer, I'd suggest that it may be easier than it sounds to just let one thing come up after another. Hermione went home for Christmas first year and at least part of the summer for the first four years; by that point, she'll have learned independence and she won't miss her parents nearly as much, since she'll be used to their absence. So she'll make plans based on what she thinks is important, and helping Harry stop Voldemort will take precedence over a family vacation every time, because there's always the next vacation. And her parents might hesitate to interfere because they don't want to hold her back from making a place in the magical world (depending on how much she's told them about the war).



virginiaelizabeth - May 9, 2006 1:18 pm (#1567 of 2970)
I understand that Hermione loves the Magical World, but if I were her parents, I'd at least make her come home for Christmas and summer. Maybe she and her parents just never really got along or had a close relationship, so the separation isn't that hard on them. Maybe she's been going to boarding school her whole life, and doesn't know any different(and maybe she went to summer camp for 1 1/2 months) We just don't know what her home life is like, and it bugs me that we do have so little info on her parents, and her life before Hogwarts. We know a whole lot more about Ron and Harry's life before Hogwarts, so why did Jo skip the last main character when she was creating them?



TheSaint - May 9, 2006 1:35 pm (#1568 of 2970)
For all we know she was a giant pain as a child. Posssibly - Voracious appetite for knowledge and the weirdest things would happen when she was bored. I am guessing she was quite an adventure as an only child with magical abilities and an amazing brain.



Esther Rose - May 9, 2006 2:19 pm (#1569 of 2970)
Like I mentioned before. I seriously think that it has more to do with protecting Hermione than anything else. Above and beyond whether Hermione wants to spend time with her family or not.

The first time Hermione stays with the Weasley's is for the Quidditch World Cup. Which is a huge event in the Wizarding world, so I can see that she would really want to go to that event.

After Voldemort's rebodification, (*shrugs*) Hermione has been with the Weasley's or under the watchful Wizarding eye (the Order) ever since. Harry doesn't go to the Weasleys right away because he needs the extra blood protection from his mother's sister Petunia.

I still believe that Dumbledore sent her to the Weasleys for her own protection. She doesn't have her parents' sacrifice to protect her like Harry does from his mother (both her parents are still alive) and she doesn't have a set of Wizarding parents like Ron does (both her parents are muggles). So how would Dumbledore decide to protect her? My assumption is by sending her to a Wizarding family. Which Wizarding family would it be best to keep her in. The Weasley's since she is already good friends with Ron.

Of course none of this is canon, just my theory.



Amilia Smith - May 9, 2006 5:43 pm (#1570 of 2970)
but I think at some point my father would have said, "Enough is enough! Get your butt home now!"

Well, she does finally spend Christmas with her parents in HBP.

Mills.



zelmia - May 9, 2006 8:14 pm (#1571 of 2970)
So let's recap: Book One PS/SS - Hermione spends Christmas at home with parents but no mention of the Easter Holiday break at all.

Book Two CS - Hermione spends the entire summer at home. Though she doesn't go home for Christmas (Polyjuice Potion), she does spend a large percentage of the latter part of the story in the Hospital Wing.
If Hermione's parents would let her go off alone into the Wizarding World after all that happened to her in this book, not joining them for a ski holiday is nothing, really.

Book Three PA - Hermione spends most of the summer in France with her parents. She doesn't go home for Christmas or Easter.

Book Four GF - Hermione spends most of the summer at home, then joins Harry and the Weasleys for the Quidditch World Cup festivities in late August. She apparently does not go home for holiday breaks.

Book Five OP - Though it is not expressly indicated, I think it's safe to assume that Hermione went home, at least for a few days, before joining Ron and the Order at GP. She is already with Ron by Harry's birthday at the end of July, but she could have been there only a day or two. (Harry just assumes she's been there all month).
Though she had been scheduled to meet up with her parents at Christmas, she outright lies to them to get out of it (a bit disturbing for our normally upstanding young witch).

Book Six HBP - Hermione is already at The Burrow when Dumbledore drops Harry off there. She makes no mention of how her summer was to that point. However she does spend the Christmas holiday with her parents.

So apart from her lying to get out of the Christmas holiday in OP, Hermione's time at home seems about right for a boarding school girl, Witch or otherwise.



Amilia Smith - May 10, 2006 2:37 am (#1572 of 2970)
Yeah, I think what bugged me more than anything was how rarely she spent Christmas with her family. Not so much how much time she was away from them, but that she wasn't with them during what is for me a Big Family Holiday. But it seems quite likely that Christmas was not as big a deal for the Grangers as it is for the Smiths. So I'm projecting my issues onto Hermione.

Mills.



Denise P. - May 10, 2006 5:17 am (#1573 of 2970)
I went to a boarding school, not in the US. It was very common for kids to spend holidays on school sponsored trips rather than go home. A friend of mine, rather than go home to visit his family, went to China, to Russia, to Kenya (and got malaria), to Italy...all over the world the three years he was at the school. His parents encouraged him to do this because who knew if he would ever have the opportunity to visit these places again.

I wonder if perhaps Hermione's parents feel the same way. Their daughter is now part of a world that they are not. They could be encouraging and supporting her in choosing to spend time in that world rather than in the muggle world during school breaks. Once she is out of school, she would be in the wizarding world full time. Her family may not put a large emphasis on holidays because they are secure in the love they have for one another, time spent together doesn't validate that or take away from that.

We see things from Harry's view, we don't know for sure that Hermione doesn't spend more time with her parents. We only know what Harry has commented on. It is very possible that Hermione was home a lot more than we know about.



colbow - May 10, 2006 7:00 am (#1574 of 2970)
Very good Denise P. Does seem Herimone spends a fair amount of time with her parents...but how would the story move along if she wasn't with the guys during some of the story lines? She needs to be there as she is a major character, I always thought her parents were just comfortable with the magical world and with the Weasley's? If we are going to apply this to real life, I think it would be more of a shock finding out you daughter has magical power and really belongs in a different commnuity and school ,then what you thought was going to be a normal childhood. The Granger's have really taken it quite well.. apart from letting her fix her teeth.. (which she did anyway)



Soul Search - May 10, 2006 7:25 am (#1575 of 2970)
I still think Hermione is always at the Weasleys when Harry gets there is because McGonagall and Dumbledore have given her the task of keeping an eye on Harry for them.

This especially fits with Hermione being at #12 Grimauld Place at all and her returning there at Christmas and going straight to Harry. She seemed to know the state of Harry's mind and only could have got the information from Dumbledore, who got it from the portrait in Harry's room.



zelmia - May 10, 2006 8:27 am (#1576 of 2970)
She seemed to know the state of Harry's mind and only could have got the information from Dumbledore, who got it from the portrait in Harry's room.

Forgive my bluntness, but I just don't think so. First of all, if Dumbledore wants to know the state of anyone's mind, he doesn't need spying. He is a Legilimens and can therefore - literally - look into any such matters himself. Remember: Dumbledore doesn't need an invisibility cloak not to be seen.
But more simply (Occam's Razor again), Hermione is one of Harry's closest friends and she knows him better than anyone. She hardly needs Dumbledore or anyone else to advise her on "the state of Harry's mind".

And considering all the discussion around letting even Harry into the Order proper, I must say that I find it highly doubtful that Hermione is on any kind of "secret mission" to watch over Harry. There are far more experienced and 'qualified' witches and wizards for this.

But even if her mission was to report on Harry's mental state, clearly Dumbledore, et al didn't see any need to step in. In fact, McGonagall spoke to Harry herself regarding his behaviour so she obviously didn't have any qualms about addressing serious issues with Harry directly.



Die Zimtzicke - May 10, 2006 8:54 am (#1577 of 2970)
New question, if no one minds. I can't remember if it's come up before. Isn't it a bit odd that after what happened at Hogwarts, that Umbridge went right back to her cushy job at the Ministry? I mean, after all, Marietta is a child and scarred for life apparently, over the one incident, and it was Umbridge's fault more than anyone for the whole climate that caused the trouble. Why would a new Minister coming in want someone around who has that much baggage?

I almost spit when she showed up at Dumbledore's funeral.



So Sirius - May 10, 2006 9:18 am (#1578 of 2970)
Die Zimtzicke, I suspect there's a lot of corruption going on at the Ministry, there's also a bit of forgiveness, perhaps. Maybe her change is one that they feel won't be an issue to anyone anymore.

I do have a question myself:

If Snape was communicating with LV either directly or through Womrtail, why didn't LV simply instruct Snape to get whatever LV assumed might be the other artifacts from the other house heads that LV wanted from inside Hogwarts? Wasn't that the reason he wanted to teach DADA so much? Now that Snapes gone, even with DD gone, I doubt he'll have an easy time getting in.

2 conclusions I have, are that either he's not in need of them anymore or with DD there Snape had no chance of retrieving them and maybe he thought with him gone it'd be easier and didn't count on Snape making this pact with Cissy and now Snape might have trouble with LV. I don't know, this just struck me as odd.



Steve Newton - May 10, 2006 9:28 am (#1579 of 2970)
Who's going to say that Dolores Dearest did anything wrong? Certainly not Marietta. I know of no one who told about here nasty little pen. Couch, her boss, seemed very pleased with her work.



zelmia - May 10, 2006 11:34 am (#1580 of 2970)
Harry holds up his hand to show the scars from his detention to the Minister for Magic in HbP. Since the Minister made no comment, it seems he at least knew perfectly well what Umbridge had been up to. Remember, this is a man who chucked little Stan Shunpike into Azkaban, knowing full well that Stan had not the slightest Death Eater connection, just to give the appearance of "doing something".

As for the "other artifacts", I think Voldemort's idea is not to have them collected. I think he wants to leave them disbursed because if they are found, they could easily be destroyed, thus defeated the purpose of the Horcruxes.



Puck - May 10, 2006 12:16 pm (#1581 of 2970)
I think it better to keep Umbridge in a position where she can be easily watched. Not enough evidence to send her to Azkaban. Better to keep her at the ministry to keep an eye on her. Plus, chucking her would be like the ministry admitting they were wrong to send her to Hogwarts, and since when would that happen?



Nathan Zimmermann - May 10, 2006 12:19 pm (#1582 of 2970)
Edited May 10, 2006 2:12 pm
Puck, I agree Umbridge the wizarding world is safer while, a close eye is kept on Umbridge as the old saying goes Keep your friends close but, keep your enemies closer.



Steve Newton - May 10, 2006 12:52 pm (#1583 of 2970)
zelmia, unless Scrimgeour knew the story Harry holding up his hand would have very little meaning.



zelmia - May 10, 2006 1:09 pm (#1584 of 2970)
Well, apparently Scrimgeour did know about Umbridge's tactics - at least in part. "Doloros Umbridge has told me that you cherish the ambition to become an Auror..." - (HBP Ch 16, US ed.) He is in direct contact with her.

When Harry shows Scrimgeour the scars on the back of his hand, Scrimergour says nothing. In fact he completely drops his entire pretense and demands of Harry, "What is Dumbledore up to? Where does he go when he is absent from Hogwarts?" - Ibid

One could almost imagine that, in her attempt to aid the new Minister in his plans, Umbridge would have warned Scrimgeour about how to approach Harry, even mentioning that Harry was completely undeterred by her corporeal detention techniques and that tempting him with the offer of being made an Auror might prove more persuasive.



Soul Search - May 10, 2006 1:45 pm (#1585 of 2970)
Good analysis, zelmia. I think you have described the situation perfectly.

The Ministry, including Scrimgeour, feel that Umbridge did a fine job at Hogwarts. They were always at odds with Dumbledore; he would not play on their team.

I have, in the distant past, suggested that Umbridge is the best candidate to replace Dumbledore as headmaster. She, after all, has experience in the position.



virginiaelizabeth - May 10, 2006 3:26 pm (#1586 of 2970)
I have, in the distant past, suggested that Umbridge is the best candidate to replace Dumbledore as headmaster. She, after all, has experience in the position.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH don't say things like that!!! haha wouldn't that be HORRIBLEEEE!!! I seriously think I would cry....lol!!



geauxtigers - May 10, 2006 3:43 pm (#1587 of 2970)
Yeah I know I'd cry she such a horrible person like the book jacket says, She has a personality like poisoned honey! AAAHHHH That would be terrible!



geauxtigers - May 10, 2006 7:50 pm (#1588 of 2970)
I pulled this from the Fred and George Thread and I think it fits here:

So, on one hand, when Harry breaks the underaged-magic and doing- magic-in-front-of-Muggles law, and when Morphin does the same, the MOM knows immediately. Yet, when Voldemort Crucio's Harry in the graveyard and Peter AKs Cedric and Crouch Jr. put the Imperius Curse on Krum in GoF, where was Mafalda Hopkirk's owl from the Improper Use of Magic Office? Neither V nor Peter nor Crouch received one - let alone receiving a visit from a MOM official like Bob Ogden. -Laura W. (post # that I've already forgotten but its the Fred and George thread)

Very good point I think the whole detecting magic is very incosistant where is a good thread to talk this over? I'll move over to the odd things thread with it if any one cares to talk about it.

So what do y'all think? It is interesting do you think that maybe the Ministry doesn't sensor areas where wizards don't live? I dunno seems a bit off could just be like Laura said, to make us sit here and talk about something that turns out to something... Thoughts?



virginiaelizabeth - May 10, 2006 8:21 pm (#1589 of 2970)
OK well, I think that the MOM mostly watches the use of magic-especially underaged- in high-muggle areas because thats where the greatest threat lies. Morfin had preformed magic in front of a muggle numerous times so that's why Ogden was sent there, and Harry is not only being watched more closely than we see, but he lives in a muggle nieghborhood, where there is no other magic around for miles, so when he does preform illegal magic, it sticks out more. Now the MOM keeps track of where wizards live, but probably don't pay as much attention to the wizards who are of age, as they do to underaged wizards, unless there are more than one account that involve a muggle.

However, in Diagon Alley, there are hundreds of witches and wizards, and no muggles(if there are any they know about the WW through their kids)because they can't get through without the aid of a wizard. So if there is a very low risk of the muggle community witnessing magic in an all-magical place, then the MOM doesn't need to keep as close of an eye on the goings on there. The main reason of the restrictions, is to keep the WW hidden from the muggle world, so it's only logical that they keep a closer watch on the higher risk areas.



Amilia Smith - May 10, 2006 9:33 pm (#1590 of 2970)
I think that the ministry keeps an extra close eye on Harry -- the Boy Who Lived and all that -- and just spot checks everyone else.

As for Umbridge, I think that she was not punished because sometimes that's how life is. The bad guys don't always get caught. They don't always pay for their sins. That's part of why It's a Wonderful Life is so powerful. Mr. Potter gets away with stealing George's $8,000. They had to slip that one by the censors. But sometimes that's how life is.

Mills.



jose043 - May 10, 2006 10:52 pm (#1591 of 2970)
The MofM did not know that LV was back & that Peter Petigew (Wormtale)was alive & they thought Barty Crouch jr was dead, this could be why the MofM never realised that those 3 had prefored the ilegal curses.

Josephine & Anne



Laura W - May 11, 2006 4:56 am (#1592 of 2970)
"As for Umbridge, I think that she was not punished because sometimes that's how life is. The bad guys don't always get caught."

Umbridge? When did she do anything illegal? Obviously what she did to Harry re the detentions was horrific beyond belief, but did not actually break any wizarding laws. In addition, as the MOM's representative at Hogwarts - and then Hogwart's headmistress -, she had the perfect legal authority to introduce those blasted Educational Decrees legislated by the Ministry. I hate to quote The Daily Prophet, but check out the Prophet article as written in OoP, starting on the first page of chapter 15.

No, what I was talking about in the post where geauxtigers quoted me was *actual illegal magic* as decreed by the MOM: the Unforgivable Curses, of course; underaged magic; performing magic in front of Muggles; bewitching Muggle-made items that end up back in the Muggle world (Arthur Weasley's territory); concealing Dark Arts objects in one's house, a non-human creature carrying or using a wand. You know, actual illegal acts in the WW.

Why is it the appropriate Departments are sometimes immediately aware when these laws have been broken and other times they are not? Along with the examples I gave in geauxtigers' post, there are more. The minute Sirius Black supposedly murdered twelve Muggles and one wizard, 20 members of the Magical Law Enforcement Squad showed up to arrest him. (PoA, p 155, Cdn version) Yet the Improper Use of Magic Office - so quick to send owls to Harry and Morfin, as I said - were not aware of three illegal Animagi roaming around. What's with that?

As I wrote in the rest of the post geauxtigers quoted, "Could this be yet another inconsistency which those of us who analyze every inch of the HP books never hesitate to dig up and comment on? (big grin)"

And, virginiaelizabeth, dear, I see no canon in HPB chapter 10 that Morfin performed magic in front of a Muggle "numerous times." Ogden says, "Our information is that Morfin performed a jinx or hex on the said Muggle, causing him to erupt in highly painful hives." That indicates a one-time offense to me. If I have missed the place where it concretely says he has done this illegal act numerous times, I would appreciate if you could tell me where.

Laura



Catherine - May 11, 2006 6:32 am (#1593 of 2970)
Yet the Improper Use of Magic Office - so quick to send owls to Harry and Morfin, as I said - were not aware of three illegal Animagi roaming around.--Laura W

Well, in the Ministry's defense (and I do hate defending them ), we saw the Mauraders roaming around places filled with magic. I can't imagine that they put sensors in the Forbidden Forest, and I can also imagine that placing sensors in an all-wizarding village like Hogsmeade is a waste of time.

Umbridge? When did she do anything illegal? --Laura W

I'm quite certain that people can be "punished" or get their come-uppance even if one is not to agree that her actions were illegal (I think drawing blood from a child's hand by coercion for punishment is considered assault on some level, but that's just my Muggle sensibilities coming out). I actually think that whatever happened to Umbridge in the Forest with the Centaurs was probably a punishment.



Choices - May 11, 2006 8:39 am (#1594 of 2970)
I am wondering if, in addition to all the other charms and enchantments placed on Hogwarts, there isn't a spell to prevent the monitoring of magic by the MOM. Maybe they don't even bother considering the amount of magic that goes on at Hogwarts each and every minute of the day - it would just be too confusing.



Steve Newton - May 11, 2006 9:03 am (#1595 of 2970)
I am not convinced that the MOM does much monitoring of spells at all. Harry was monitored but was a special case. I got the impression that Morphin was caught because he was a serial offender of sorts. Maybe not magic in the presence of a Muggle but often offending. Sirius was caught right away but he was wanted at the time. (Unless my memory is failing.) He was being looked for. (Sorry for the improper English.)



kaykay1970 - May 11, 2006 11:27 am (#1596 of 2970)
I would think that Umbridge sending a dementor into Privet Drive might be illegal...and she didn't get caught!



geauxtigers - May 11, 2006 12:55 pm (#1597 of 2970)
Sirius was caught right away but he was wanted at the time. (Unless my memory is failing.) He was being looked for. (Sorry for the improper English.)

The whole reason anyone would ever look for Sirius would be because they thought he was guilty of the killing 13 people. So no, one was looking for him at the time. I think that becasue he was in a heavily muggle infested area and the Potters seemed to be the only Wizarding family near Godrics hollow. And if a huge spell (do we even know what spell this is) is fired off in a heavily muggled area, they would jump I assume. Plus this occured sometime after Vold's several AKs so the ministry was probably nearby and apparated right next to him like at the World Cup.



Steve Newton - May 11, 2006 1:11 pm (#1598 of 2970)
I thought that Sirius was suspected as the betrayer of the Potters.



virginiaelizabeth - May 11, 2006 1:44 pm (#1599 of 2970)
Laura, no you are right it does not say that, its just something I assumed(which I find myself doing a lot!) because I figured the reason they sent Ogden there, was because Morfin was creating serious problems. They didn't send a rep to 4PD when Dobby did magic, but on Harry's second offense with the dementors, they said that a Ministry Rep would be there shorty to destroy Harry's wand, but as we know DD stopped it but that made me think it was a routine procedure, so I just assumed that because Ogden showed up at the Gaunt house, that it must have been at least a second offense. I'm thinking maybe I shouldn't have used the word numerous.



Die Zimtzicke - May 11, 2006 2:03 pm (#1600 of 2970)
I agree that Umbridge sending the dementors after Harry should have been exposed and punished. She also threatened to crucio him in front of witnesses.

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Steve Newton - May 11, 2006 2:37 pm (#1601 of 2970)
I can't help but think that Dolores Dearest arranged for there to be nobody watching when the dementors showed up.

On the Crucio I wonder who would have told. Harry doesn't tell anybody anything. I don't think the Slytherin's would be forthcoming. That leaves the DA members. Either they stayed quiet or Dolores Dearest has GREAT contacts.



Amilia Smith - May 11, 2006 6:06 pm (#1602 of 2970)
Umbridge? When did she do anything illegal?

So sorry, Laura. Didn't mean to confuse. I was just referencing the previous conversation, in which Die Zimtzicke asked, Isn't it a bit odd that after what happened at Hogwarts, that Umbridge went right back to her cushy job at the Ministry? I mean, after all, Marietta is a child and scarred for life apparently, over the one incident, and it was Umbridge's fault more than anyone for the whole climate that caused the trouble. Why would a new Minister coming in want someone around who has that much baggage?

I agree that aside from sending the Dementors (which wouldn't be traceable in the ordinary way, whatever that is, because it isn't "doing magic" anyway) Dolores hasn't done anything illegal.

Back to the question of how the MoM knows if someone broke the law . . . I think that there is no way that the MoM is able to monitor everything and everyone. This is why I think they spot check (with the exception of Harry, whom I think they keep a closer eye on) and rely on people to inform them when the law is broken. While performing an Unforgivable Curse on another human being will earn you a one-way ticket to Azkaban, this only applies if you are caught. Like speeding in the real world. It is always against the law, but you are only punished when a cop happens to see you do it. So if you perform an Unforgivable, and no one complains, and you don't happen to be on the MoM's radar at the moment, you get off scott free.

I think that Sirius was unlucky enough to happen to be on the Ministry's radar when Peter blew up the street.

As far as Morfin goes, my theory is that Merope informed the Ministry on him. When Ogden charged Morfin with performing magic in front of a muggle, "There was a deafening clang. Merope had dropped one of the pots." (Scholastic, p. 205) Later in the conversation, after Riddle and his lady ride by, Morfin admits that it was Riddle that he cursed. "I got him as he went by and he didn't look so pretty with hives all over him, did he, Merope?" (p. 210) I propose that Merope was enough in love with Riddle that she was able to brave her father's and brother's wrath by informing the ministry when Morfin cursed him.

Mills.



zelmia - May 11, 2006 8:09 pm (#1603 of 2970)
With regard to Harry's warning letters, I have always assumed that in the first instance, it was Dobby who ratted him out and in the second it was Umbridge. Recall that both of Mafalda Hopkirk's letters begin "We have received intelligence that..." and not something along the lines of "We have detected that such-and-such spell was performed..."

And though Fudge claims that Harry's 'situation has always been closely monitored' I think if this were actually true, the Ministry would have believed him about the Dementors because their "monitors" would have had at least some idea of what happened. In fact, it is Dumbledore and the Order who have kept Harry "closely monitored". Fudge simply did not want to admit that the Dementors had broken loose.



haymoni - May 12, 2006 3:22 am (#1604 of 2970)
zelmia - I love your avatar! I have such high hopes for this young lady. I hope I don't ruin things with my expectations.

I wonder if we will see more of Mafalda Hopkirk. She isn't ever mentioned other than the letters. It's just sort of weird.



Laura W - May 12, 2006 3:43 am (#1605 of 2970)
Excellent discussion, guys. I'd like to comment on all the posts but that would be ridiculous (riddikulus) so I'll just pick one for now.

Amilia Smith wrote: "Back to the question of how the MoM knows if someone broke the law . . . I think that there is no way that the MoM is able to monitor everything and everyone. This is why I think they spot check (with the exception of Harry, whom I think they keep a closer eye on) and rely on people to inform them when the law is broken. While performing an Unforgivable Curse on another human being will earn you a one-way ticket to Azkaban, this only applies if you are caught. Like speeding in the real world. It is always against the law, but you are only punished when a cop happens to see you do it. So if you perform an Unforgivable, and no one complains, and you don't happen to be on the MoM's radar at the moment, you get off scott free."

Gee, just like in the Muggle world. What a letdown! What's the point of being a Ministry of MAGIC if you only know people are acting illegally when they happen to be doing so during a "spot check" or if you need people to tell you that a crime has been committed before setting off to warn or arrest the criminal?

There's a magic quill at Hogwarts that "knows" as soon as a witch or wizard is born anywhere in the UK (source: Lexicon) and records this fact in a book. I was thinking there was some kind of equivalent magic at the MOM re illegal spells. Oh well.

As disappointed as I am Amilia (grin), what you say might just be the answer. I do recall that when Buckbeak nipped Draco, the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures didn't act - or even know? - until it received "the official complain of Mr. Lucius Malfoy". PoA (chapter The Firebolt).

Laura



Catherine - May 12, 2006 4:12 am (#1606 of 2970)
I do recall that when Buckbeak nipped Draco, the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures didn't act - or even know? - until it received "the official complain [sic] of Mr. Lucius Malfoy". PoA (chapter The Firebolt). --Laura

Buckbeak nipped Draco on the Hogwarts Grounds. With all of the magical creatures at Hogwarts and in the Forest, and all of the magic in the air, I can't imagine that the Ministry would have a reason to know (or care) that Buckbeak was being unruly. I'm not sure that a Hippogriff biting is illegal magic, though.

I was thinking there was some kind of equivalent magic at the MOM re illegal spells.--Laura W

The evidence doesn't seem to support the existence of such an item, or that it could identify the culprit. Barty Crouch, Jr cast the Morsmordre spell using Harry's wand, for instance, so even Priori Incantantem couldn't always "prove" the offender. Dobby levitated the dessert in 4 Privet Drive, but Harry, as the only "known" wizard in the area, was blamed. Even the lack of spells present in his wand using the Priori Incantantem isn't helpful, because there is wandless magic in the series, such as the blowing up of Aunt Marge.

JKR has made the point several times that the wizarding world isn't "better" just because it is magical. I, for one, am glad that there isn't the idea of "Big Brother watching you" so closely. I don't think that would add to the series, and moreover, it gives me the creeps.



Anna L. Black - May 12, 2006 5:03 am (#1607 of 2970)
I posted on the Fred and George thread, that I think DD said something to Harry about the MOM's ability to detect magic. This thread made me look it up, and after skimming over 340 pages of the book, I found this:

"'Bot how come the ministry didn't realise that Voldemort had done all that to Morfin?' Harry asked angrily. 'He was under age at the time, wasn't he? I thought they could detect under-age magic!'
'You are quite right - they can detect magic, but not the perpetrator: you will remember that you were blamed by the Ministry for the Hover Charm that was, in fact, cast by -'
'Dobby,' growled Harry; this injustice still rankled. 'So if you're under age and you do magic inside an adult witch or wizard's house, the Ministry won't know?'
'They will certainly be unable to tell who performed the magic,' said Dumbledore. smiling slightly at the look of great indignation on Harry's face. 'They rely on witch and wizrd parents to enforce their offspring's obedience while whithin their walls.'" (HBP, "A Sluggish Memory", p. 344 Bloomsbury edition. Bold mine.)

So, basically, magic is only detected when done in front of Muggles, and even then, you can't always tell who it was (Harry was the only wizard for miles, it wasn't difficult in both cases - Dobby and the Dementors...). So - no hope of detecting anything in Hogwarts and such.



Steve Newton - May 12, 2006 6:46 am (#1608 of 2970)
I'd also point out that the MOM can detect magic. This does not mean that they always do or even try to.



Madame Pomfrey - May 12, 2006 6:57 am (#1609 of 2970)
I didn't know where else to post this so I thought I'd put it here. Throughout the books we have been told at least once per book that you cannot apparate in or out of Hogwarts. However, in book 6,we learned that Dumbledore can lift this spell(he did in the Great Hall so the kids could practice)Is this something he might have done on occasion such as a means to get away from Fudge in OoP? Or do you all think it may be used in book 7? I just thought this odd.I have always thought that it(apparation)couldn't be done and now find out Dumbledore has the power to lift the spell.



Soul Search - May 12, 2006 7:28 am (#1610 of 2970)
Ministry of Magic Monitoring Magical Activity

We know that the Ministry "... can detect magic, but not the perpetrator."(Dumbledore, HBP) The letter to Harry in CoS gave the type of magic, a "Hover Charm." The hover charm was blamed on Harry because he was the only wizard known to be near Privet Drive. So, the Ministry can assign geography to a magical act.

We also know that Privet Drive is watched: "That situation has always been monitored closely." (Fudge, OotP)

I suggest that the Ministry monitors Privet Drive, generally, to protect Harry. Any magical activity around Privet Drive would mean a wizard is near, and that could mean trouble for Harry. In OotP, Fudge may have been watching especially closely, hoping to catch Harry at something, but the close monitoring has been to protect Harry. While the Ministry doesn't know about the prophecy, Harry has always been "The Boy Who Lived" and something special.

I do wonder about monitoring in general. How many wizards are there? There were a hundred thousand attending the Quidditch World Cup. Many foreign, but many had to be from Britain.

How much magic does a typical wizard perform in a day. The wizarding world uses magic like muggles use technology. So, tens of magical uses in a day would not be out of the ordinary.

So, we have millions of magical activities being performed throughout Britain every day. Not surprising if a few go unnoticed.



Die Zimtzicke - May 12, 2006 4:22 pm (#1611 of 2970)
What troubles me more about the apparation is that Malfoy confirms in HbP that an untrained young man like Montague apparated out of the cabinet into the bathroom at Hogwarts. That is worse than a powerful wizard like Dumbledore lifting the no-apparation policy, but I agree it's stupid to make a rule you're going to break several times. If that's how this is going to go, we can't trust anything we read, which is annoying to me.



wynnleaf - May 12, 2006 5:26 pm (#1612 of 2970)
Are we clearly told that Montague apparated out of the vanishing cabinet? Do we know that it wasn't some other method of transport? Apparition is a function of the individual wizard. The vanishing cabinet is a separate source (apparently) of transportation, not dependent on the will or magical effort of the wizard. The portkey is, likewise, not dependent on the will or magical effort of the wizard and can be used with Hogwarts. We do not necessarily know what other methods of transport (perhaps quite rare) are also possible. Do we know for sure what type of transport moved Montague out of the cabinet and into the toilet?

JKR has repeated the "no apparition within Hogwarts" rule so many times I doubt sincerely that she forgot, or even decided to simply drop the rule. After all, this wasn't a major plot point (how or where Montague got out of the cabinet). She didn't have to break her own rule. So perhaps, at least in her viewpoint, the rule was not broken because this was something different from apparition.



geauxtigers - May 12, 2006 6:33 pm (#1613 of 2970)
Are we clearly told that Montague apparated out of the vanishing cabinet?

Well I was going to quote where it says he did, but I can't find it to save my life, but I'm pretty sure I just read it recently. I can't remember who, it was on another thread, but people sugessted that since he was in the vanishing cabinet he was probably in "limbo" if that makes sense, so he was in Hogwarts, but he wasn't really so when he tried to apparate out, he jammed in a toilet. I'll try and find the post and link it here. I think Choices was the person who said it so if you're reading this Choices, carry on...



Laura W - May 13, 2006 4:31 am (#1614 of 2970)
geauxtigers wrote "Are we clearly told that Montague apparated out of the vanishing cabinet? Well I was going to quote where it says he did, but I can't find it to save my life, but I'm pretty sure I just read it recently."

Here it is, Victoria. HBP, chapter 27, p. 548 (Raincoast):

Draco talking to Dumbledore, "I had to mend that broken Vanishing Cabinet that no one's used for years. The one Montague got lost in last year. ... Montague told me that when he was stuck in the Hogwart's one, he was trapped in limbo ... but he couldn't make anyone hear him...in the end he managed to Apparate out, even though he'd never passed his test. He nearly died doing it."



Mrs Brisbee - May 13, 2006 5:17 am (#1615 of 2970)
Weren't the students told during Apparation lessons that they would be foolish to try to Apparate out of the Great Hall? Maybe what happened to Montague is what happens when you start in a place within Hogwarts that allows Apparating to another place within Hogwarts that doesn't. Apparating feels like being pushed through a tube. Maybe the "tube" gets cut off as soon as it hits Hogwarts protections, so usually the person who tried to Apparate into Hogwarts from outside would find themselves forcibly ejected at the walls to the grounds, and possibly splinched or otherwise messed up. Usually no one can Apparate within Hogwarts, but the inside of the Vanishing cabinet and the Great Hall for Apparating lessons are the exception. But it still hurts when you run into the protections still up in the rest of the castle, because they keep the person from Disapparation properly. That's my take on it, anyway.



Magic Words - May 13, 2006 8:02 am (#1616 of 2970)
I think he may have succeeded partly because he didn't pass his test. He wasn't entirely sure what he was doing. So it was more accidental, emotional magic than Apparation, although it was probably based on Apparation. (Ten-year-old Harry couldn't have purposely vanished glass any more easily than one can Apparate into Hogwarts, yet it happened.)



Madame Pomfrey - May 13, 2006 8:41 am (#1617 of 2970)
Dumbledore lifted the spell just in the hall where they were practicing but,I am wondering if he could lift the spell guarding the whole castle.I think he could.Perhaps the current Head Master or Mistress is the only ones able to do this-the secret passed down to them.If the icecream parlour Fortesque is the retired headmaster Fortesque and Voldemorts taken him, its scary to think he might know these Hogwarts secrets enabling Voldemort to enter Hogwarts without the vanishing cabinet.Dumbledore has stressed that there is something that Voldemort wants from the castle-Maybe the castle itself.



geauxtigers - May 13, 2006 9:03 am (#1618 of 2970)
Thanks Laura! Good thought Madame Pomprey, but I think that the spells change depending on who the head is. DD is always undoing the spells that he himself cast according to all the books right? So I think that DD enchantments may be different from Dippet's enchantments. They all have the same purposes, but are different.

Mrs Brisbee, thats how I think it works too! I think that since he was stuck in limbo, then he wasn't really in or out side Hogwarts right and thats what happens when you try to apparate there. Since you can't really, then you get jammed in a toilet for instance.



Madame Pomfrey - May 13, 2006 9:16 am (#1619 of 2970)
I had thought of that too,Geauxtigers.Dumbledore lifting spells that he himself have put there, but not being able to apparate in and out of Hogwarts is an old enchantment thats mentioned in Hogwarts A History.



wynnleaf - May 13, 2006 9:22 am (#1620 of 2970)
Of course, Montague didn't apparate either in or out of Hogwarts. He apparated within it -- from one place to another. And the vanishing cabinet may put the person in a sort of limbo, neither truly in Hogwarts nor truly out of it. And of course, Montague's apparition was obviously pretty dangerous, considering where he ended up. So I think this could easily be said to be a special circumstance, possible because Montague wasn't doing anything like a normal apparition.



Choices - May 13, 2006 9:24 am (#1621 of 2970)
Geauxtigers - Here are the two posts giving my "explanations" of the cabinet and how Montague apparated out......

+ Things which struck you as "odd" #1486 - Choices Apr 26, 2006 07:24 pm virginiaelizabeth - "....he wouldn't be able to get into HW." But, the Vanishing Cabinet is already in Hogwarts. It's difficult to explain, but I look at the Vanishing Cabinet as being sort of like the Vatican. It is inside the borders of Italy, but it's also a separate country...

+ Things which struck you as "odd" #1482 - Choices Apr 25, 2006 10:42 am Maybe it's one of those things that makes your head ache - perhaps inside the Vanishing Cabinet is sort of like being in limbo - the cabinet is in Hogwarts, but inside the cabinet is sort of "no-man's land" - it may be the proverbial exception there is to every rule. Montague was technically inside Hogwarts, but at the same time he was in the cabinet (in limbo), so he was able to initiate the apparition in there, but ran into trouble completing it to his destination and ended up in the bathroom mentally confused - he sort of splinched his brain to a minor degree. Then again, maybe some things are just not meant to be understood...



geauxtigers - May 13, 2006 1:59 pm (#1622 of 2970)
Thats the one I was looking for Choices Thanks! This I agree on and I think it makes perfect sense as to why he was jammed in a toilet.



Die Zimtzicke - May 13, 2006 6:21 pm (#1623 of 2970)
I really think the apparation is a big mistake. It says Montague apparated. And Montague would have had a diagnosis by then that they Slyths would have heard about. If he didn't apparate, Jo muddied the waters for me by having Draco say he did. But I'll give up on that.

Really odd thing I want to discuss next...

In GoF Dumbledore is talking about the chamber pots, and seems not to know about the room of requirement. He's the headmaster. I think he would have known about it. In later books, Dobby knows, and Filch gets cleaning materials out of there, and Trelawney goes to drink there. How could Dumbledore NOT have known about that room? What's up with that?

Hope no one is getting fed up with my weird questions yet. If so, just say so.



rambkowalczyk - May 13, 2006 7:22 pm (#1624 of 2970)
Maybe Malfoy used the wrong term when he say Apparate and Dumbledore didn't bother to correct him. House Elves are capable of Apparating but according to JKR it is a different type of magic special to House Elves.

When Dumbledore was talking about the Chamberpots, he wasn't all that serious. I think he was implying that there are so many secrets in the castle that it isn't realistic to remember them all.

Actually Die, nitpicking is a trait shared by all of us at one time or another. My pet peeve is the Hogwarts map that was in one of the DVD's is inverted. The forbidden Forest is always in front of the setting sun, yet the map has it east.



Mediwitch - May 13, 2006 8:06 pm (#1625 of 2970)
Actually, Die Zimtzicke, I have a similar feeling about Dumbledore and the RoR...why would he wander - back and forth! - past that stretch of wall four times thinking of chamber pots when Hogwarts clearly has plumbing?



geauxtigers - May 13, 2006 10:11 pm (#1626 of 2970)
Actually, Die Zimtzicke, I have a similar feeling about Dumbledore and the RoR...why would he wander - back and forth! - past that stretch of wall four times thinking of chamber pots when Hogwarts clearly has plumbing?

One nit-picky thing I feel the need to say: its three times, not four! ha ha

I seriously doubt that anyone would ever do that if they didn't know it was there or how it works. I think that it probably will become whatever it needs if the person outside is desperate enough. Also, DD might already have known about it and was just trying to make a point to Harry. Tell him like you said ramb, that you may never know all Hogwarts secrets.

This has brought up a new question I have:

Does DD really have to leave his office/bedroom/ where ever it is he lives to go to the bathroom? I mean really don't you think they'd give the headmaster his own bathroom? And what about in Gryfinndor Tower, are there bathrooms there? Do the students have to leave the dorm to go to the bathroom? What if its after their curfew and they really had to go? Filch catches you and gives you detention and you tell him you are out after curfew because you had to pee! What if you wake up in the middle of the night? Okay there must be bathrooms in the tower right? Okay wow this is interesting and I think I just need to go to bed because now this is going to bother me.



virginiaelizabeth - May 13, 2006 10:35 pm (#1627 of 2970)
I have always wonder that myself! I would assume that they do but then again its never mentioned. If I went there, it would really annoy me to have to leave the common room to everytime I had to pee in the evenings during homework and stuff... they have to have bathrooms ok its now 1:30 in the mornin and I'm jsut rambling so yeah.. weeird question Tori!!



Amilia Smith - May 13, 2006 11:54 pm (#1628 of 2970)
In GoF Dumbledore is talking about the chamber pots, and seems not to know about the room of requirement. He's the headmaster. I think he would have known about it. In later books, Dobby knows, and Filch gets cleaning materials out of there, and Trelawney goes to drink there. How could Dumbledore NOT have known about that room? What's up with that?

Well, I'm pretty sure Filch doesn't know about it, he just thinks it is a supply cupboard. I'd be willing to bet that Trelawney doesn't know either; to her it's just a convenient hiding place for her stash that never gets found because it's not always there. House-elves know more about Hogwarts than anyone, so it doesn't surprise me that Dobby knows about the room and how it works.

As to how Dumbledore found it, I could totally see this happening. When your bladder's full, there's not much else you can think about. And the bathrooms in Hogwarts have a tendency to move about, so I can see Dumbledore thinking to himself, as he walks up and down the corridor in question, "Drat! I could have sworn there was a bathroom here yesterday!" As to why chamber pots appeared . . . maybe the RoR is just old-school? Or maybe Hogwarts has plumbing, but not that room in particular? As to why Dumbledore was wandering the corridors looking for a toilet, maybe the headmaster's room isn't plumbed either (although why this would be, I don't know). Or maybe he was just up and about early, and suddenly got the urge. What's the exact quote? (My books are in UT.)

I agree that the House Common rooms almost certainly have bathrooms attached.

Mills.



Laura W - May 14, 2006 1:51 am (#1629 of 2970)
"As to how Dumbledore found it, I could totally see this happening. When your bladder's full, there's not much else you can think about. And the bathrooms in Hogwarts have a tendency to move about, so I can see Dumbledore thinking to himself, as he walks up and down the corridor in question, "Drat! I could have sworn there was a bathroom here yesterday!" As to why chamber pots appeared . . . maybe the RoR is just old-school? Or maybe Hogwarts has plumbing, but not that room in particular? As to why Dumbledore was wandering the corridors looking for a toilet, maybe the headmaster's room isn't plumbed either (although why this would be, I don't know). Or maybe he was just up and about early, and suddenly got the urge. What's the exact quote?"

Amilia, from GoF, chapter The Yule Ball, p. 363 (Cdn. edition): "Oh, I would never assume I know all Hogwarts' secrets, Igor," said Dumbledore amicably. "Only this morning, for instance, I took a wrong turning on the way to the bathroom and found myself in a beautifully proportioned room I have never seen before, containing a really rather magnificent collection of chamberpots. When I went back to investigate more closely, I discovered that the room had vanished. But I must keep an eye out for it. Possibly it is only accessible at five thirty in the morning. Or it may only appear at the quarter moon - or when the seeker has an exceptionally full bladder."

Of course, DD was talking to Karkaroff when he said this, so perhaps it was just his little joke. That's what I think.

Laura



Soul Search - May 14, 2006 7:07 am (#1630 of 2970)
I don't think we can draw too many inferences about Hogwarts' plumbing from the few references we have. I can only recall mention of toilet facilities when it suited the storyline (which is a bit odd, in itself.)

We have Myrtle's bathroom in Cos.

Then Dumbledore's reference in GoF, which was later used by Harry to assure Hermione that Dobby's "room of requirement" actually existed. Marvelous plot planning by JKR, by the way.

There is the impressive prefects bathroom in GoF.

Then there are a couple of toilet references in passing, as in OotP when Hermione says everyone was talking about Harry's interview in the Quibbler.

Then, in HBP, we have Myrtle in a boys bathroom.

I think we have to assume that Hogwarts is well plumbed, given that the pipes are big enough to accomodate a basilisk.

Of course, everything dumps into the lake. Don't the Merpeople complain. Does the MoM have an "EPA" division? Maybe there is "septic tank" magic.



virginiaelizabeth - May 14, 2006 8:47 am (#1631 of 2970)
Of course, everything dumps into the lake. Don't the Merpeople complain. Does the MoM have an "EPA" division? Maybe there is "septic tank" magic.

Haha I would certainly object to it, but then again, maybe there is some sort of spell that destory the umm for lack of a better word, poop as soon as it hits the water!



So Sirius - May 14, 2006 11:38 am (#1632 of 2970)
Haven't been here since I asked my last question, but I can't seem to find it nor any replies, so I apologize, but can anyone tell me what they think about this...

Why, once he regained his body and had Snape at his disposal, did LV not instruct him to get whatever he thinks he needs, artifacts wise, from Hogwarts? I suggested his fear of DD. But with DD trusting Snape, there were ways around that.



Hollywand - May 14, 2006 4:07 pm (#1633 of 2970)
Edited May 14, 2006 6:06 pm
Hi So Sirius, If I may venture a reply.....Voldemort may have wanted relics like the Sword of Gryffindor and, I think, especially the Sorting Hat, as it is a relic that symbolizes unity among the four houses at Hogwarts. These would be objects that any dark wizard could not lay their hands on without.....sniff......getting past Albus Dumbledore and Fawkes.



Puck - May 14, 2006 4:17 pm (#1634 of 2970)
Plus, I think LV may have -for the moment- shifted his priorities to ridding himself of DD and Harry.



So Sirius - May 14, 2006 7:07 pm (#1635 of 2970)
So, in fact, just like going for Harry instead of Neville, LV made another mistake by doing off DD. By having DD killed, he unleashed a support group that will give LV and his gang a real fight. He's not that bright, eh? I just thought it so odd that what he's been gunning for for so long, the artifacts, he neglected those in favor of offing DD, first. He really can't see the bigger picture, like DD can.

I don't know, I suppose the protection around those artifacts might be less difficult to get around now, yet now, his trusted Snape is no longer there to help out, Maybe DD doesn't trust Snape as much as he wants everyone to believe, but used him to achieve something towards the bigger picture.



Hollywand - May 14, 2006 7:50 pm (#1636 of 2970)
I think one thing Voldemort cannot conceive is that an individual would sacrifice themselves for the greater good of the group and the cause. The great weakness around the Horcrux protections would be that Voldemort will use his own self centered preservationist world view to construct the barriers.

An analogy can be drawn here with the final quest for the stone in Book One. Dumbledore protects the stone by linking it to desire. It is only one would would desire the stone for the greater good that receives the physcial stone in their care.

I would say a similar paradox will play itself out in the conclusion of Book Seven.

Ironically, with the death of Dumbledore, Voldemort now faces the barrier Dumbledore has set; methinks we will return to the Mirror of Desire, and Harry will be prepared completely.



Die Zimtzicke - May 14, 2006 8:18 pm (#1637 of 2970)
With Voldemort and Harry, I don't know why he didn't just kill the kid when he had him tied up in that graveyard. There's something so 60's Batman (see Austin Powers satire!) about him untying Harry and trying to duel him.

I can see Peter doing a version of Seth Green's lines..."C'mon, just kill him. It'll be fun!"



Amilia Smith - May 14, 2006 11:58 pm (#1638 of 2970)
Thanks, Laura! It seems Dumbledore does indeed have to leave his quarters to use the bathroom. Unless, of course, this was just a throw away comment to Karkaroff. :-)

Pre-HBP, Die Zimtzicke, my thoughts were along the lines that Voldemort was more interested in drama and inspiring terror than he was in just killing people. I saw Drama Queen as a much bigger part of his personality than Evil. Since HBP, I've switched these two characteristics around in order of importance, but I do still think that Drama Queen is an important part of his character. He is interested in messing with people's emotions, feeding off of their fear, playing cat-and-mouse games. Killing the kid while he was tied up would be much more efficient, but dueling would be so much more dramatic! So, yeah. 60s Batman.

Why, once he regained his body and had Snape at his disposal, did LV not instruct him to get whatever he thinks he needs, artifacts wise, from Hogwarts?

Am I correct in assuming that by artifacts you mean Horcruxes hanging out at Hogwarts? If so, and also assuming that there are Horcruxes hidden at Hogwarts, which is by no means a given, my 2 knuts: Voldemort does not want to place all his eggs in one basket. By gathering all his Horcruxes together, he would be making it much easier for someone to find and destroy. I think he wants them as spread out as possible, and either as protected as possible (like the locket) or as inconspicuous as possible (like the diary).

Mills.



Laura W - May 15, 2006 1:39 am (#1639 of 2970)
"Die Zimtzicke, my thoughts were along the lines that Voldemort was more interested in drama and inspiring terror than he was in just killing people. I saw Drama Queen as a much bigger part of his personality than Evil. Since HBP, I've switched these two characteristics around in order of importance, but I do still think that Drama Queen is an important part of his character."

Amilia, I agree with you that Voldemort is very big on showboating and drama, but I think there is another aspect in play here. His pride.

Talking to the Death Eaters in that graveyard scene, he says, "You see, I think, how foolish it was to suppose that this boy could ever have been stronger than me. ... But I want there to be no mistake in anybody's mind. Harry Potter escaped me by a lucky chance. And now I'm going to prove my power by killing him, here and now, in front of you all, when there is no Dumbledore to help him, and no mother to die for him. I will give him his chance. He will be allowed to fight, and you will be left in no doubt which of us is the stronger. ..."

Laura



So Sirius - May 15, 2006 8:14 am (#1640 of 2970)
"Am I correct in assuming that by artifacts you mean Horcruxes hanging out at Hogwarts?"

Amilia, actually, I don't know what LV wants at Hogwarts. All I know is that he wanted in, very much. He tried to get a teaching position there, to get in, he assumed he put his most loyal servant (Snape) on the inside (most likely an information on DD issue, there). Whether it's simply the artifacts from the houses he wants or needs for some reason, or the fact that he's made something there into a Horcrux, I don't know...I just know he wanted in to get something. Maybe he just wanted the teaching position to create a new line of wizards who'd learn to do unforgivable curses or perhaps he's hidden something at the school, maybe even in the RoR, maybe in the same way Harry hid his book or the such and needed a way to get to it. Yet my question remains, if he wanted in to get something, be it a Horcrux or artifact or something he hid, why not use Snape or Draco to fetch it? It would have been no skin off his teeth to lose either of them in doing so.

Lv is a coward. Everything he does screams of it. When fear is controlling you, guiding you or overtaking your rationale, you make decisions that seem preposterous. We know that not killing Harry in the graveyard while he was tied up was absurd, but part of LV was still being ruled by his fear, I assume, the other was his need to show the others he was still that Wizard that should be most feared by doing in Harry. The ones more dense than LV himself are his followers who perhaps at some point, might catch on. Their need to have a Lord and be followers is an interesting one, quite an old story, really, and history has shown us that these folks don't win.



zelmia - May 15, 2006 8:21 am (#1641 of 2970)
Regarding the Horcruxes, yes I agree with Mills 100% (and said the same thing earlier, actually). It would be, frankly, stupid for Voldemort to want all of the Horcruxes to be gathered together where anyone could destroy them with a single spell.
No, I don't think Horcruxes were part of Snape's mission - - from Voldemort.

However, if we operate under the assumption that Snape is actually working for the "good guys", then there could be a small chance that Dumbledore gave the "Help Harry collect the Horcruxes" job to Snape.
This doesn't seem very likely, though, with all the secrecy surrounding the "horcrux lessons".

The other thing is that if either the Sorting Hat or Gryffindor's Sword were a Horcrux, wouldn't Diary Tom Riddle have had some sort of reactioin to those items magically appearing? Possibly not, since Diary Tom was the firstborn of the Horcrux experiment. But it would seem to me that Diary Tom would have ... I don't know... felt something about these items (a "connection"?), since they would have contained a portion of Voldie's soul as well.

EDIT: cross posted with So Sirius. Personally I think Tom Riddle wanted to teach simply as a chance to recruit his followers. Dumbledore saw right through this of course. Or perhaps he wanted the Diary back, now that he (presumably) had other (perhaps better "made") Horcruxes instead.



Hollywand - May 15, 2006 8:37 am (#1642 of 2970)
Regarding the Sorting Hat and the Sword of Gryffindor as Horcruxes---I was arguing that, at the time Tom Riddle sought a teaching position, his ulterior motive might have been acquisition of these valuable relics to transform into additional Horcruxes.

At the time of Riddle's teaching interview with Dumbledore, he is degraded in appearance, but not to the extent that he is when Harry encounters him. This would suggest to me that he is has not completed the seven divisions.

Dumbledore makes note of the fact that Voldemort sought relics from each founder, and notes that the Sword of Gryffindor is in his personal possession in the Headmaster's Office.

I personally also like the Sorting Hat as a poetential valuable relic. The Sorting Hat symbolizes a unity of the houses, something more than the four founders, and a symbol of the Quintessence. But I won't go into a lot of alchemy mumbo jumbo here----for anyone interested, I recommend a dedicated search under "Quintessence" and "Sorting Hat" on the alchemy thread.

I think Tom Riddle was thwarted by Dumbledore in his quest----and now that Dumbldedore is no longer at Hogwarts, perhaps he will seek out the remaining relics for his collection. Yikes.



journeymom - May 15, 2006 9:25 am (#1643 of 2970)
I thought Jo dismissed the idea of the Sorting Hat as Horcrux? She said something about it being a bad idea to put a bit of your soul into a sentient, talking object.



So Sirius - May 15, 2006 9:29 am (#1644 of 2970)
This should probably go on the Snape thread, but eh, I'm here, so...

I personally don't think Snape is one of the good guys. I think he's only out for himself and he's a wanna be follower. He did after all, deem himself the half blood prince, which speaks mouthfuls. He comes from a rotten home, his behavior and background are from a bad place and although you can show redemption, I don't think he has. I think he's confused. I also think that is his main issue with Harry, he wished for the fame, with the name. His anger at Harry is about his jealousy towards him. But, I think what he's got with DD is more of a pact, than anything else. I think DD did him a favor (possibly hiding his mom) and this made a bond between them, much like the bond to help Draco and in doing this favor, along with the fact that LV was gone, made DD, who is a forgiving person, give Snape a chance. After all DD never really came around to trusting him completely. Then again, neither does LV, which is why he didn't confide in him, so he could help him get the sorcerers stone. But, recently, he must have done something to prove his loyalty to LV, why then couldn't LV ask him to retrieve the artifacts or even kill DD? Maybe he's still wary of Snape. Yet, perhaps, if the theory above is correct, this bond or pact between him and DD is the reason that LV trusts Snape now, to an extent, because the bond has the power to override all else. He can't break the bond, or else and by not breaking it, he must stay whatever the bond promised him to be.

As for the Sorting hat, JKR has said it's not a horcrux, didn't she? I can't see it being of value, I don't mean as a relic, but as anything of consequence...other than to tell LV what's in the minds of the students, even his own mind... but, if it could do that just by being asked, wouldn't DD have done that?

Edit: lol thanks Journey, was typing when you posted that.



Hollywand - May 15, 2006 7:04 pm (#1645 of 2970)
Yes, Rowling does confirm that the Sorting Hat in not a Horcrux, but I just wanted to clarify that my argument above is that the Sorting Hat is a valuable relic that Voldemort would desire.



geauxtigers - May 21, 2006 11:37 am (#1646 of 2970)
not sure where this should go exactly.... I was reading OoP and the whole part about Ron accioing the brain got me thinking, heres the exact quote, "the top of the tank as a brain burst from the green liquid like a leaping fish. For a moment it seemed suspended in midair, then it soared toward Ron, spinning as it came, and what looked like ribbons of moving images flew from it, unraveling like rolls of film-"(hardback pg 798)

Then Madame Pomprey is "mending" Ron's scars and it says, "According to Madame Pomprey, thoughts could leave deeper scarring than almost anything else,"(847 us hardback)

Some people think DD was reliving memories when drinking the mysterious green potion in the cave. Either its odd coincidence that both appear to be related to a) a green potion and b) thoughts or memories

any thoughts or have I finally gone mad?



Choices - May 21, 2006 5:59 pm (#1647 of 2970)
Interesting catch, Geauxtigers. I'll have to give it some thought.



Gemini 13 - May 22, 2006 12:29 pm (#1648 of 2970)
I think you've finally gone mad ;-) jk lol

I think its an interesting coincidence. I am more curious about what kind of scars the brains left and what kind of lasting effect there is as well. Ron mentioned still having scars in HBP.



Steve Newton - May 22, 2006 4:32 pm (#1649 of 2970)
I think that we have seen one of the lasting effects in HBP. In HBP Ron is the go to guy. He, not Hermione, is the one who comes up with most of the answers.



Madame Pomfrey - May 22, 2006 6:42 pm (#1650 of 2970)
Can someone please help my befuddled brain? When Harry took his potions book to the RoR he noticed a blood-stained axe that I immediately thought was the one that killed Buckbeak,However since the timeturner was used Buckbeak was not killed so the axe never got bloody did it? If it isn't the axe used on Buckbeak then what was it used for? Maybe the chickens ginny killed in CoS?

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nthdavid - May 22, 2006 8:54 pm (#1651 of 2970)
It was an old axe. It could have been the one that was used to partially hack off Sir Nick's head.

And there is a very small possibility that it is the 'Gryffindor' object that was made into a horcrux.



Gemini 13 - May 23, 2006 6:58 am (#1652 of 2970)
nthdavid - I think you might be on to something! Not the axe itself... but what if Voldemort, upon his last trip to Hogwarts, hid one of the horcruxes in the room of requirement? We know that Voldemort came to Hogwarts one last time to ask for the DADA job, so maybe upon that visit he slipped one in there. He seemed to have a good knowledge about the castle and might have found the room of requirement when searching for the Chamber of Secrets? Harry saw mountains of possible objects that could be a horcrux.



Choices - May 23, 2006 9:17 am (#1653 of 2970)
The Room of Requirement is on the 7th floor, as is Dumbledore's office. Voldemort probably passed right by it and could certainly have gone in if he knew the secret of getting into it.



Madame Pomfrey - May 23, 2006 12:59 pm (#1654 of 2970)
I forgot about poor Nicks head,but did that take place at Hogwarts? Choices,that would have been the perfect opportunity for Voldemort to hide a horcrux.The RoR has been mentioned on the Horcrux thread as a possible hideout for a horcrux but most are speculating that it is the tiara that is the horcrux.



TheSaint - May 23, 2006 1:35 pm (#1655 of 2970)
Anyone think the Bloody Baron may have been Nick's executioner? I always found it strange he was covered in blood and here is old Nick whacked so many times in his failed beheading? What a mess that had to be.



Magic Words - May 23, 2006 1:47 pm (#1656 of 2970)
Hey, we know the Slytherin/Gryffindor feud has been around that long....



kaykay1970 - May 23, 2006 2:11 pm (#1657 of 2970)
The Bloody Baron is stained with silver blood. I always thought it might be unicorn's blood...

When Seamus asked how he got stained in blood, Nick says "I've never asked."



Choices - May 23, 2006 4:10 pm (#1658 of 2970)
Madame pomfrey - "...but most are speculating that it is the tiara that is the horcrux."

Yes, that is my guess also. The tiara is very suspicious. The bloody axe could well be the one that killed Nick if it did happen at Hogwarts. Gosh, and Harry thought Umbridge and her nasty little quill was bad, Nick really must have gotten in trouble. LOL As for the silver blood on the Baron (I don't think it was he who botched the beheading of Nick), I think the blood is silver because ghosts are silvery - everything on them looks silver. I really don't believe it is unicorn blood.



geauxtigers - May 23, 2006 6:08 pm (#1659 of 2970)
Didn't JKR have something on her website that was cut from the book about Nick's beheading? I'll have to go look it might say where. Also the blood is silver because ghosts are silver I never even thought about unicorn blood...



Amilia Smith - May 24, 2006 12:48 am (#1660 of 2970)
Yep. She did post a song that Nick sang about his beheading, but which got cut from the book. He doesn't say anything about where his beheading took place, and his executioner is identified only as:

The man in the mask who would have the sad task
Of cleaving my head from my neck.

End quote.

Mills.



Madame Pomfrey - May 24, 2006 6:55 am (#1661 of 2970)
I bet he was kin to McNair!!

I am currently rereading PoA(starting ch.4) and Sirius has been described twice as having a (gaunt) face.Do you think there is anything to that? The other times his face was described as sunken.



Steve Newton - May 24, 2006 7:42 am (#1662 of 2970)
In chapter 7 of SS the Bloody Baron's face is also described as gaunt. These descriptions and the name of Voldemort's mother's family do raise the question of relationship.



geauxtigers - May 24, 2006 12:58 pm (#1663 of 2970)
I think that his face looks this way because of being in Azkaban. He looks depleated and tired and he has a very good reason for that. I think Harry says somewhere that he could still see that look on his godfathers face after all those years in Azkaban, not sure what book or if he even says something to this extent. I might've made it up... hmmmmmm... but I dont think I did...



Madame Pomfrey - May 24, 2006 4:16 pm (#1664 of 2970)
I missed that one, Steve.I have to wonder where the Peverell family name fits in.



Lilly P - May 24, 2006 4:46 pm (#1665 of 2970)
Thanks Madame Pomfrey, I've been looking for a place to interject that, dosn't Peeves seem such a natural nick name for Peverell? I believe that Peeves is connected in someway that is helpfull (maby to horcrux's ?) or DD would have tossed him out before now.



Hollywand - May 24, 2006 5:01 pm (#1666 of 2970)
Maybe Peeves is a pet....ok, I'm leaving now.....



Mediwitch - May 24, 2006 6:16 pm (#1667 of 2970)
Hollywand -



Choices - May 25, 2006 10:46 am (#1668 of 2970)
But Peeves is not a ghost - he is not the shade of someone who once lived, so how can he be connected to the Peverells? Poltergeists are just a mass of kinetic energy - perhaps the combined mischevious spirit of the teenagers living within Hogwarts' walls. I think the name Peeves comes from the fact that he is "peevish" - a definite source of aggravation to all who encounter him.



So Sirius - May 25, 2006 5:22 pm (#1669 of 2970)
I do like the idea of the bloody baron being a Slytherin heir. After all, JKR has made a point of letting us know that most wizards are related and that the houses usually continue to keep those with relations, the very few exceptions have been, but it seems reasonable, that she used Gaunt, deliberately.

I also wanted to mention: pg. 124 American version SS, "How did he get covered in blood?" asked Seamus with great interest. "I've never asked," said Nearly Headless Nick delicately.

Either he's avoiding it, telling an untruth, or it wasn't the BB.



Puck - May 26, 2006 3:41 pm (#1670 of 2970)
I doubt LV would hide anything in the RoR. Too many people have hidden things in there. He would find it too "common".

While the Baron might have been a Slytherin relation, Sirius wasn't. LV is the only decendent.



The giant squid - May 27, 2006 1:07 am (#1671 of 2970)
Well, he might not have hidden it in the RoR that Harry put the HBP book into (the one jammed with all sorts of stuff), but I could almost see Harry pacong back & forth in front of the door thinking "I need the final horcrux" really really hard...

--Mike



Puck - May 27, 2006 3:47 am (#1672 of 2970)
Mike, I'll agree to that. A special room. Just not tossed into a room full of old junk. (Though it would be a good spot, it's just doesn't seem LV's style.)



Madame Pomfrey - May 28, 2006 5:42 am (#1673 of 2970)
And I can see Voldemort pacing in front of the same door thinking "I need a place to hide my horcrux,I need a ...



TheSaint - May 28, 2006 10:13 am (#1674 of 2970)
That I cannot see. Requesting over and over is almost like begging, and I can't see Voldemort doing that. I can see him standing before the door to give it a direct order, that is more his style. I still can't figure out why jewels would be hidden in the room of requirement, even if they were broken, you would not hide it away. I would think maybe it was stolen, but DD says that doesn't happen in Hogwarts, so i am at a loss to explain the reason they would be there.



Catherine - May 28, 2006 3:52 pm (#1675 of 2970)
That I cannot see. Requesting over and over is almost like begging, and I can't see Voldemort doing that. --The Saint

I cannot see Voldemort doing the act of mere asking. He doesn't seem to ever "request" anything; he expects or he commands. Even if he did appear to ask, I am sure that he is in control of the situation enough to "know" the outcome to the extent that he is not a mere supplicant.

Harry, on the other hand, does beg for help--especially in CoS---when those who ask for it will always receive it.

Interesting connection--Voldemort--and asking anything.

Hmmmm.....



The giant squid - May 29, 2006 12:23 am (#1676 of 2970)
I think the key factor here would be whether LV knew about the RoR. If he already knew where it was & how to enter it then yes, he could very well ahve hidden a horcrux there. Like Catherine, though, I don't see him stumbling on it accidentally.

--Mike



Puck - May 29, 2006 4:02 am (#1677 of 2970)
Oh, if he found the Chamber, then good chance he knew of the room. He spent many years exploring the castles secrets. Likely knows of the passageways as well.

Then again if Fred and George didn't know about it....



Catherine - May 29, 2006 8:44 am (#1678 of 2970)
Then again if Fred and George didn't know about it.... --Puck

But they did know--kind of. At the first DA meeting: "It's bizarre," said Fred frowning around at it. "We once hid from Filch in here, remember, George? But it was just a broom cupboard then." (OoP 391)

They may not have realized the mechanism behind it, but the Room had been there for them.



Mediwitch - May 29, 2006 5:32 pm (#1679 of 2970)
That's the thing I still don't really understand about the RoR...how can people find it "by accident" if you are required to walk back and forth three times thinking of what you need?

When the twins were looking for somewhere to hide from Filch, what are the chances they ran back and forth three times in that one spot? Or that Dumbledore, when looking for the bathroom, paced back and forth three times? I would think they would be making a beeline for their respective destinations.

I dunno.....



geauxtigers - May 29, 2006 6:49 pm (#1680 of 2970)
Yeah I've always wondered that too! I think that if there is a great need for it such as in a desperate situation it appears for you. I dunno thats all I can come up with because it seems that too many people have found it in urgent situations to have come across it by accident. **Fred and George running from Filch, "Hey Fred want you reckon would happen if we paced back and forth 3 times on this blank stretch of wall. Maybe a room will appear and we can hind from Filch!" **

Somehow I don't see that happening! Same with Dobby, why would a house-elf be pacing in front of a blank stretch of wall on the 7th floor?



The giant squid - May 29, 2006 10:24 pm (#1681 of 2970)
Well, as far as Fred & George, I can see them running back & forth in a sort of slapstick thing--they run in opposite directions, then double back to the other (who is now running where the first one was) then back again, all the while thinking "I need somewhere to HIDE!"

As for Dumbledore, a slow yet urgent pacing while trying to remember the direction to the nearest restroom?

--Mike



TheSaint - May 29, 2006 11:32 pm (#1682 of 2970)
Exactly what i was thinking Giant Squid regarding Fred and George.



Amilia Smith - May 30, 2006 12:53 am (#1683 of 2970)
And as for Dobby, he said that all the house-elves knew about the room. They had several different names for it, even. So Dobby wouldn't have stumbled upon it by accident, he would have been told where it was and how to access it.

Mills.



Mediwitch - May 30, 2006 5:04 pm (#1684 of 2970)
Yeah, I guess I can see Fred and George doing a "Keystone Cops" kind of thing. I'm still not sold on Dumbledore and the "chamber of chamberpots". When one has "an exceptionally full bladder" it's hard to imagine pacing by a blank wall!



TheSaint - May 30, 2006 5:29 pm (#1685 of 2970)
If you are half asleep, you may wander back and forth a moment thinking, 'where is the bathroom?'



DJ Evans - May 30, 2006 5:48 pm (#1686 of 2970)
Maybe with the house-elves -- being they have a different magic, sort of -- the RoR never disappears, that the door is always there for them to see?

Just thinking out loud here.....

Later, Deb



Emily - May 30, 2006 5:51 pm (#1687 of 2970)
Hmm . . . well, it was Dobby that told Harry to pace back and forth three times, if I recall, and Dobby hasn't always been right even if he is very dedicated. Perhaps the RoR will only allow itself to be 'called' if the person goes past three times while thinking very hard, but if the Room itself recognizes a need, it will open itself. Anyone wanna improve this theory?



TheSaint - May 30, 2006 5:51 pm (#1688 of 2970)
I like that thought DJ!



virginiaelizabeth - May 30, 2006 6:52 pm (#1689 of 2970)
Well Emily, maybe it depends on the strength of the need. When Fred and George desparately needed a hiding place from Filch, so the room opend for them without the need to walk back and forth. Same with Dumbledore, he must have really had to go!

But with Harry and the DA, it wasn't a great enough need for the room to just appear. Maybe that first time, HRH did have some doubt, then the room may not have registered thier great need for it's use. Harry also closes his eyes everytime he does it, kinda makes me wonder if after the first walk by while thinking it hard, opens the door...could explain why Fred and George and Dumbledore accaessed it quickly.



Choices - May 31, 2006 9:34 am (#1690 of 2970)
Sometimes I think that what Dumbledore said about the Room of Requirement and the chamberpots was sort of tongue-in-cheek...he was making a point to Igor.



virginiaelizabeth - May 31, 2006 9:41 am (#1691 of 2970)
Just as likely Choices!

Another thought..... Have all of the headmaster's that Hogwarts has ever had died, before resigning thier post? I'm just thinking of a qoute(can't rmember which book) about how the portraits are of previous headmasters and headmistresses, not necessarily the dead ones. I think it's unlikey, certainly possible, but unlikely that every headmaster has died before resigning their post. Surely someone in the 1000 years that Hogwarts has been open, has retired or resigned?



haymoni - May 31, 2006 6:42 pm (#1692 of 2970)
Define "pacing".

If I take 1 step to the left and then 1 back to where I was and then decide to head in the other direction, I have gone back & forth in 3 movements.

Does that count?



TheSaint - May 31, 2006 8:24 pm (#1693 of 2970)
That was my thought.



Magic Words - Jun 1, 2006 7:57 am (#1694 of 2970)
It was suggested on the "major death in HBP" thread that I post this here as well.

I have trouble accepting the assumption that when a person dies, all spells cast by that person are lifted. Does that mean that if the caster of a Fidelus Charm dies, or the bonder of an Unbreakable Vow, the spells fail? I realize these possibilities are both discussed on other threads, but it seems unbelieveable to me. What about the protective wards on Hogwarts? Does each Headmaster have to replace every one of them, because they've failed regularly, starting with the death of the last Founder? What about Mrs. Black and her Permanent Sticking Charm?



Madame Pomfrey - Jun 1, 2006 9:11 am (#1695 of 2970)
I am not sure about the others,but Permanent sticking charm is permanent.I really think some magic just wears off such as Fred and Georges sign they made for Harry.We have been told by Jo that when the secret keeper dies the fidelus charm is still there only it can't be told to anyone else.The freeze charm is another matter,We have seen it lifted(Tonks lifted Harry's) and then there is Greyback who was frozen but we didn't hear if he was captured or if he got away.We assume that Harry's charm lifted the moment Dumbledore went over the ramparts(died) but there is really no proof of that.



TheSaint - Jun 1, 2006 1:46 pm (#1696 of 2970)
'We have been told by Jo that when the secret keeper dies the fidelus charm is still there only it can't be told to anyone else.'

This is another issue. The secret keeper dies..the secret is still kept. No one else can learn the secret. Now the rest of those who know the secret die, and now some real estate agent comes and places a for sale sign on the property...people come in to look at it..buy it even..and move in..but when people look in the windows..no one can see them? Would that be weird or what? Muggles living in a secret kept home.



Puck - Jun 1, 2006 5:20 pm (#1697 of 2970)
Ahh, I suspect that we have such a secret compartment in my house, and it's full of odd socks!



Magic Words - Jun 1, 2006 5:51 pm (#1698 of 2970)
Actually, that may not present a problem. Take Grimmauld Place. As soon as the Order vacates it, the secret of where Order headquarters are located is no longer true, so it can't be kept. If a Muggle ends up in a secret-kept home, the overwhelming chances are that the secret is no longer true.



Die Zimtzicke - Jun 1, 2006 7:36 pm (#1699 of 2970)
As far as secret houses go, I could never udnerstand what's to keep someone in a house from putting a fidelius on that house to keep a new owner from taking possession of it. It's a license to steal.

If everyone who knows a seret is gone, does that mean no one can ever find the house again? That's bizarre to me.

The whole concept is, actually.



zelmia - Jun 1, 2006 11:17 pm (#1700 of 2970)
This may have been discussed early on, but in my re-read of HBP, I just can't get over how "odd" it is that neither Ron nor Hermione are the least bit supportive of Harry's assertion that Draco Malfoy is "up to something" - especially Ron.
The two were both there when Draco went in to Borgin and Burkes and they have been in school with him the same number of years. They know how devious Draco has always been. But now that his father's been outed as a Death Eater, Draco really doesn't have any reason to hide his duplicity.
I just can't even understand why Ron and Hermione need so much convincing that Draco is plotting something.

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Torill - Jun 2, 2006 4:36 am (#1701 of 2970)
The Fidelius charm was not about the whereabouts of the actual house at 12GP, it was about the whereabouts of the Headquarters of the Order. Same with the Potters' hiding place in Godric's Hollow - it was again about the whereabouts of the Potters', not the house.

I don't think you can use that spell to secure that no one knows about the whereabouts of a house so that no one can buy it. I always thought that you can only use the Fidelius charm to secure something that is actually a secret. At the point when Sirius was made a secretkeeper of James and Lilly's whereabouts, I think he was the only one who knew where they were. If somone other than him knew about it before the spell was cast, I doubt very much that the spell would suddenly have removed that knowledge from their minds again. But it would in all probability have prevented them from being able to tell anyone of what they knew.

Same with the whereabouts of a house. If it has been placed in the same streets for decades, a vast amount of people will know where it is, they will have walked past it numerous times. I don't think a Fidelius charm would suddenly remove this knowledge from the minds of all those people. I thought the fact that Harry couldn't initially see 12GP had more to do with how it was made unplottable than the Fidelius charm. Because it would have been uneccessary to make the house unplottable if the Fidelius charm in itself had made it invisible to everybody, also to those who used to know where it was.

So no, if a vast amount of people knows that a house is no longer yours, I don't think you can suddenly make that a secret so no one else can move into it. I don't think the Fidelius changes something from common knowledge to a secret, it is about keeping what is a secret from becoming common knowledge. There is a difference here.

But of course, magic can be abused to criminal ends, of course, just like any Muggle technology can....

- Yes, it is difficult to understand how this works - the fact that Voldemort could have looked in through the windows of the house at Godric's Hollow and still not have seen James and Lilly and baby Harry seems totally impossible. But this is Magic, so it doesn't work according to Muggle natural laws, and us Muggles can't really understand it, can we..



Madame Pomfrey - Jun 2, 2006 6:11 am (#1702 of 2970)
I agree Zelmia,they were unsupportive.I could visualize them rolling their eyes every time Harry mentioned Draco's name.



Soul Search - Jun 2, 2006 6:15 am (#1703 of 2970)
zelmia,

"I just can't get over how "odd" it is that neither Ron nor Hermione are the least bit supportive of Harry's assertion that Draco Malfoy is "up to something" - especially Ron."

I have to agree. I am also a little surprised that it hasn't been brought up on the forum before.

Hermione really begins pushing Harry away from an interest in Malfoy after they get to Hogwarts, so it could be explained, at least in part, by the "Hermione is in league with Dumbledore to protect Harry" theory, but I think it might even go beyond that. Dumbledore says Harry can tell Herminoe and Ron about the private lesson content, perhaps so Hermione can know what Dumbledore wants of Harry, and exert her influence.

Later, Hermione tells Harry that Slughorn's memory is more important than Draco; sounds to me like she has been told so.

Ron is more difficult to explain. I can only guess that Hermione has exerted her influence on Ron, without revealing her relationship with Dumbledore. Even so, Ron has been, in the past, even more anti-Draco than Harry; it must have taken a lot to keep him from encouraging and helping Harry.



So Sirius - Jun 2, 2006 10:15 am (#1704 of 2970)
Zelmia, I think it has been brought up before, but none the less, it's really quite a departure from the characters that we've known thus far, isn't it? To have Hermione, in a sense, dismiss Harry, regarding his thoughts on Malfoy, make me think that in book 7, she just might overcompensate for that, by being her old true self and go a bit overboard. Ron might be feeling a bit guilty as well and follow suit and it might be to both their detriments, in book 7. As with Malfoy, i'm not so sure we saw a change in his personality, as a side to it that JKR has never shown us before.



haymoni - Jun 2, 2006 10:21 am (#1705 of 2970)
I could see Hermione thinking that Harry was going overboard.

He thought Snape was trying to kill him in Year 1 - he was wrong.

He thought Malfoy was Slytherin's Heir in Year 2 - he was wrong.

Everybody was wrong about everything in Year 3, so that really doesn't count.

He thought Karkaroff put his name in the Goblet in Year 4 - he was wrong.

He thought Sirius was being tortured in Year 5 - he was wrong - plus we got her whole "Saving Thing" speech.

I could see Hermione thinking that concentrating on Malfoy was wrong, given that Dumbledore had already commented on the topic.

And I could see Ron going right along with her.



zelmia - Jun 2, 2006 1:18 pm (#1706 of 2970)
Yes, Haymoni. But Harry was not the only one who thought Snape was trying to kill him and that Malfoy was Petrifying everyone. Both Ron and Hermione were convinced of it also - - so much so that Hermione brewed up the Polyjuice potion so they could confront Malfoy about it.

I don't remember Harry thinking Karkarov had put his name it the Goblet. My recollection is that it was meant to look like Ludo Bagman had done it. Regardless, both Ron and Hermione, along with Sirius, eventually realised that someone had put Harry's name into the Goblet and that his/her intentions were not sporting.

In OP, though Hermione does give the "saving people" speech, she still climbs up on a thestral - - which for her is invisible, even - - and accompanies Harry to the Ministry.

The odd part about Ron's and Hermione's behaviour in HBP is that the two were there when Draco went into Borgin and Burkes. They saw/heard first hand how he was acting. They know his father - - and more importantly, his Auntie Bellatrix, who is still at large - -is a known Death Eater. It doesn't make one bit of sense to me that they (or anyone else, for that matter) should dismiss Harry's concerns out of hand. Ron argues that "[Malfoy's] only 16. How could he be a Death Eater?" Yet Harry, at least, is an active member of the Order of the Phoenix.

Hermione does bring Harry Dumbledore's note about the next "lesson" immediately upon Harry's and Ron's return from the Christmas break. So one could convincingly argue that Dumbledore might have taken that opportunity (when he gave Hermione the note to give to Harry) to seek her assistance on corralling Harry's suspicions, or merely ask her to keep an eye on Harry, etc.
But Hermione was already thinking along those lines with regard to Malfoy.

And Harry isn't always wrong. Remember that he also tells Sirius about how Dobby came to see him on his own. Which meant that Kreacher could be going to see Bella on his own. To which Sirius was forced to admit that Harry may be right to be concerned. ("Hm.")

Obviously this is the way JKR wanted to tell the story. But within the parameters of the saga so far, this particular attitude is quite contrary to the way Ron and Hermione have done in the past.

I just don't get it......



Magic Words - Jun 2, 2006 1:44 pm (#1707 of 2970)
I think it was at least partly that they've all been wrong about Malfoy before. They probably also underestimated him because they've never seen him do anything other than whine, complain, butter up professors and bully other students. Furthermore, I'm not sure Hermione, at least, was any less convinced of Malfoy's guilt in this book than Sirius's torture in the previous one. It's just that there was never much they could do about Malfoy. If Harry had wanted to follow Malfoy off the Hogwarts grounds (to Knockturn Alley or something) and had shown every intention of going alone if need be, I think Hermione and Ron would have been right there with him, despite their misgivings.



Madame Pomfrey - Jun 2, 2006 2:16 pm (#1708 of 2970)
Hermione does bring Harry Dumbledore's note about the next "lesson" immediately upon Harry's and Ron's return from the Christmas break.

I've often wondered about this.Did hermione spend Christmas at Hogwarts? She told Harry she had returned two hours ago and had just been down to see Hagrid and Buckbeak.She also knew the new password and she knew all about the fat lady getting drunk over the Christmas holiday with Viola in a picture of drunk monks down by the Charms corridor.Is Charms close to Dumbledore's office.Where did she see Dumbledore to get the scroll telling Harry of their next meeting? I guess all of this could take place in 2 hrs,but I would think Hagrid would keep her that long.

Also,when Harry questioned Hermione about how her Christmas was,she shrugged and said "oh,fine.nothing special." Was she keeping something from Harry or maybe she was upset because she was separated from Harry and Ron.



Puck - Jun 3, 2006 8:52 am (#1709 of 2970)
I agree, Zelmia. It bothered me, also. All I can think was that the DoM was a scary experience, and they had gone there unnecessarily. Perhaps they were reluctant to follow on another "wild Goose chase"? Or maybe they didn't think Draco could do anything that important for the DE. They never have given him much credit.



Mediwitch - Jun 3, 2006 6:52 pm (#1710 of 2970)
~~Nitpick alert!~~

Yet Harry, at least, is an active member of the Order of the Phoenix.

Harry, as an underage wizard, was not allowed to join the OoP, although he wanted to!

~~end Nitpick alert!~~



Die Zimtzicke - Jun 3, 2006 7:02 pm (#1711 of 2970)
Awww, Mediwitch! You beat me to it!

You're absolutely right.



zelmia - Jun 3, 2006 8:32 pm (#1712 of 2970)
Okay but I am pretty sure there was a big heated discussion about Harry being an Order member in OP in which Molly tells Sirius "He's not James!"
My understanding was that Harry, the Twins and Ron were all allowed to stay in the meeting - as at least "junior" members of the Order, whilst Ginny was ushered out of the room.



Laura W - Jun 4, 2006 12:07 am (#1713 of 2970)
Sorry, zelmia ...

"(Molly speaking) 'You've given Harry plenty of information. Any more and you might just as well induct him into the Order straightaway.'

'Why not?' said Harry quickly. 'I'll join, I want to join. I want to fight.'

'No'

It was not Mrs. Weasley who spoke this time, but Lupin. 'The Order is comprised only of overage wizards,' he said. 'Wizards who have left school,' he added, as Fred and George opened their mouths."

(OoP, Chapter Five, p. 91, Raincoast)

Of course, in book seven Harry will be both 17 and not in school - or so he says -, so that will be a different story.

Laura



Lilly P - Jun 4, 2006 6:24 am (#1714 of 2970)
It seems to me that were splitting hairs here, OK, so they didnt have some silly ceremony to "induct" Harry, but his life ambition is to fight LVand his followers. he is clearly a member "de facto" of the order whether the adults want to admit it or not.



Choices - Jun 4, 2006 9:18 am (#1715 of 2970)
Harry technically is not allowed to join the Order, but I think in spirit you are correct Lilly P - Harry is "the one" who will vanquish Voldemort and that is the goal of the Order - Harry is what it's all about!



virginiaelizabeth - Jun 4, 2006 4:03 pm (#1716 of 2970)
About the whole Ron and Hermione not believing Harry about Malfoy thing...

I think that Hermione was thinking logically with the situation, and influenced Ron to agree with her. Logically, at least in Hermione's eyes, Voldemort would never let a 16 year old do something really important for him, he wouldn't trust a kid now would he? All Malfoy is is just a whiner and a bully, yet she knows that he won't take anyone on without two big guys(Crabbe and Goyle) right behind him. In her eyes, Malfoy is a "foul loathsome evil little cockroach" but he's also a weeny, and is probably to scared to take an order from LV, much less join the DE's and actually do it. I think in for Hermione, it was just logical that even if Malfoy was "up to no good" that he would never follow through with it, just like he has never really followed through with anything other than bullying, so she wasn't really worried about what he was doing. She felt like DD's lessons should be taken more seriously than Malfoy because it could help him survive, and Malfoy wasn't really that big of a threat. Then she told influenced Ron's thinking on the subject.

Hermione is smart and she it's just natural for her to think logically in a case like this, and let's face it, when she believed all of those things in the first 3 books, she was still very young and immature. By book 5 we start seeing her act in a more logical way with making sure Sirius isn't at 12GP before galavanting off to the MOM, but now that she used her logic and was right, she has more confidence that she is right again about Malfoy.



Puck - Jun 4, 2006 6:27 pm (#1717 of 2970)
Well, Ginny, in that case poor Hermione will be having trouble in book seven, now that her logic has deceived her.



virginiaelizabeth - Jun 4, 2006 7:01 pm (#1718 of 2970)
Yes I agree I don't think it will help her much but that's the only explanation that I can com eup with for why she didn't believe Harry.



haymoni - Jun 5, 2006 4:59 am (#1719 of 2970)
Since Voldy founded his little group while still in school, I'm guessing he would have no problem taking in underaged wizards.

The guy needs bodies. He's not Mr. Ethical. If someone is willing to join him - tatoo or not - he'll take 'em.



Die Zimtzicke - Jun 5, 2006 9:32 am (#1720 of 2970)
That's right...the Death Eaters were founded by children, as children. There's a precedent for that. The Order is the noble group, founded as adults, by adults, which of course keeps coming back to bite them. If Dumbledore HAD tried to kill Voldemort in the DoM, could he have? We'll never now, because Dumbledore believed there were worse thngs than death. Sigh.

Hermione's logic is a pain in the rear, sometimes, because we aren't always dealing with logical people. I think that's why Jo called Luna the anti-Hermione. I think in book seven, Harry's going to have to take some things on faith.



Choices - Jun 5, 2006 9:44 am (#1721 of 2970)
Die - "If Dumbledore HAD tried to kill Voldemort in the DoM, could he have?"

Not if his Horcruxes acted as they are supposed to do. Voldemort would just be out another body.



journeymom - Jun 5, 2006 1:20 pm (#1722 of 2970)
Die - "If Dumbledore HAD tried to kill Voldemort in the DoM, could he have?"

Choices- "Not if his Horcruxes acted as they are supposed to do. Voldemort would just be out another body. "

Exactly. Dd knew that at that point even if Harry (and we) didn't. And that's where Dd's statement gets misunderstood, I think. It wasn't just a morality sentiment, "worse things than death". Jo has been careful not to tread into the relm of saving souls. Dd's statement was foreshadowing.

Die Zimtzicke, you make a great point about Luna the anti-Hermione!



Laura W - Jun 5, 2006 7:44 pm (#1723 of 2970)
Lilly P wrote, "It seems to me that were splitting hairs here, OK, so they didnt have some silly ceremony to "induct" Harry, but his life ambition is to fight LVand his followers. he is clearly a member "de facto" of the order whether the adults want to admit it or not."

The fact that it is now Harry's goal in life to find and vanquish Voldemort does not make him a member of the Order of the Phoenix, although their goals may be the same. At the end of Book Six, he still does not meet the strict criteria of admission which Lupin outlined and, undoubtedly, which Dumbledore set up. Also, now that everybody in the wizarding world knows about the rise of LV *and* the death of DD, no doubt a lot of them (most notably Aurors) will be out to destroy LV. That, in itself, does not make them members of this special Order.

Besides, in HBP, Chapter The White Tomb, p. 601 (Cdn edition), it clearly says, "And Harry saw very clearly as he sat under the hot sun how people who cared about him had stood in front of him one by one, ... all determined to protect him: but now that was over. He could not let anybody else stand between him and Voldemort. ... the last and greatest of his protectors had died and he was more alone than he had ever been before."

No mention of the Order; nothing about having it stand behind him (even though it actually will); no mention of him being a member - de facto or otherwise - and of having them all go out to do the deed; not even a comment regarding him becoming a member when he is 17 and out of school.

Whether you think so or not, I believe Harry took Lupin at his word in OoP when he said Harry - and Ron and the others - could *not* be and *were not* members, although it's true they were given some inside information on what the Order was doing (to an extent, at least) in OoP.

Having said that, I feel it would be to Harry's advantage to actually join the Order in Book Seven but, at the point we have just left Harry (June of his sixth year), I don't think he even cares to. In his mind, as The Chosen One, getting rid of Voldemort is all up to him, regardless of who else is out there hunting V.

Laura



TheSaint - Jun 6, 2006 3:43 am (#1724 of 2970)
Member or not..the Order will be pretty much following Harry now. He is the key and they will be there to assist him, so basically...they will be joining him.



Madame Pomfrey - Jun 6, 2006 6:42 am (#1725 of 2970)
The Saint,I agree. Dumbledore's demise has left a hole.The Order was founded by him as well as led by him and alot of what Dumbledore did revolved around Harry.The Order may be unaware of the contents of the prophecy and the horcruxes,but they know that Harry has been labeled the "chosen one" and that Harry accompanied Dumbledore during his last excursion(McGonnagall and MOM has already questioned him.).I don't see Harry necessarily joining,but leading the Order.I don't think they will be keeping Harry in the dark about anything, but he will definitly not reveal anything to them because it was Dumbledore's wishes.They will be seeking Harry's advice because for once it is they,and not Harry, who are in the dark.



Die Zimtzicke - Jun 6, 2006 8:33 pm (#1726 of 2970)
Maybe I didn't word that right. I don't know if Dumbledore could have killed Voldemort's spirit, or essence, or whatever you want to call it, but he possibly could have forced him from the magically crafted body he was in.

If Dumbledore had been able to do that, Voldemort might have had to pull himself back together and Harry might have had more time to learn and grow.

There must be a way to hold Voldemort prisoner or force him out of that body. Otherwise why would Dumbledore have told him the Aurors were on their way, during this conversation in the MoM: "It was fooish to come here tonight, Tom," said Dumbledore calmly. "The Aurors are on their way-"

What did he plan on doing with Tom when the Aurors got there? Isn't it possible they could have bought time by disembodying him somehow or holding him prisoner?



Laura W - Jun 7, 2006 2:06 am (#1727 of 2970)
"Otherwise why would Dumbledore have told him the Aurors were on their way, during this conversation in the MoM: "It was fooish to come here tonight, Tom," said Dumbledore calmly. "The Aurors are on their way-"


Well, Dumbledore knows better than anybody that it is Harry and Harry alone who is destined to kill Tom (or the other way around): "neither can live while the other survives," and all that. So, his purpose in mentioning the Aurors coming was not telling V that he may go to prison or that the Aurors might kill him. Here's what I think:

The reason it was foolish of Riddle to go to the MOM and have Aurors come was twofold;
This brings his followers out in the open and a whole bunch of Death Eaters will be either killed or arrested by Aurors,
This brings Voldemort himself out in the open so he can no longer operate in the clandestine manner he has since the end of Book Four. He blew his cover.

Throughout all of OoP, Fudge, the MOM and the Daily Prophet have been saying that Albus Dumbledore and Harry Potter were some kind of nuts and attention-seekers in spreading the "falsehood" that the greatest Dark Wizard had risen again. Without any proof one way or the other, a number of the wizarding world were naturally skeptical or even outright unbelieving of what DD was saying (ie - Seamus' mother). Tom's foolish act not only did not benefit him, his self-caused exposure gave the rest of the WW a heads-up. DD sees that. Just look at the front page article of the very next issue of the Sunday Prophet (OoP, beginning of Chapter 38).

laura



Lilly P - Jun 7, 2006 6:28 am (#1728 of 2970)
I addition to the things Laura listed above, I belive DD didn't want to "kill" the current body that LV was residing in, because who knows how he would have come back? Would he just occupy another wizard a la Prof. Quirrel? or somthing we havent seen yet? The point is, it's a slight advantage to know what your enemy looks like! you dont want to have to go around ripping every wizards hat off to see if they have a LV sticking out of the back of thier head!!! Reminds me of the quote "Better the devil that you know, than the devil that you don't."



zelmia - Jun 8, 2006 12:14 pm (#1729 of 2970)
This isn't "odd" so much as it frustrated me. When Harry is trying to give Dumbledore water in The Cave, he keeps using his "Aguamenti" spell and trying to fill the goblet.
Why didn't Harry just Aguamenti straight into Dumbledore's mouth? Obviously, that would have changed the entire story, but every time I hear/read that passage I think, "Just do it directly into Dumbledore's mouth".

It would certainly have been worth a try, eh?



Puck - Jun 8, 2006 12:34 pm (#1730 of 2970)
Guess we can chalk it up to not thinking clearly due to stress.



Madame Pomfrey - Jun 8, 2006 1:35 pm (#1731 of 2970)
I think the water would just disappear before he could get any.Thats what Voldemort wanted-his inferi activated.



geauxtigers - Jun 8, 2006 5:45 pm (#1732 of 2970)
Zelma me too! It always frustrates me when the character does exactly what I wouldn't. But like Puck said, probably due to stress and that fact that in high pressure situations people tend to over look the obvious solution!



Magic Words - Jun 9, 2006 10:19 am (#1733 of 2970)
The way I read it, Harry realized when the water disappeared that the only way to get water would be the way Voldemort left. He didn't need to try anything else because he knew it wouldn't work. It's the same thing that happened with DD and the potion. We didn't watch him attempt every conceivable way to get the locket from the basin, and I seriously doubt he could have tried them all in those few seconds, but he figured out the pattern of what Voldemort had done.



virginiaelizabeth - Jun 9, 2006 3:25 pm (#1734 of 2970)
"Harry knew, instinctively, the only way to get water, because Voldemort had planned it so..."(574)

Yep me too Magic Words!



journeymom - Jun 11, 2006 2:16 pm (#1735 of 2970)
"Why didn't Harry just Aguamenti straight into Dumbledore's mouth?"

It's right up there with "Accio dragon's egg!" in GoF. That's not what Jo wanted!



Magic Words - Jun 11, 2006 4:02 pm (#1736 of 2970)
Course, we're not sure an accio spell can outfly an angry dragon. Or that the water wouldn't simply have vanished sooner. Just trying to defend our wizard friend's decision-making skills...



geauxtigers - Jun 21, 2006 10:15 am (#1737 of 2970)
I'd just like to put something up to see what yall think:

descripton of Snape: "...a teacher with greasy black hair, a hooked nose, and sallow skin"(SS US HB 126).

Description of Madame Pince: "... the vulture like countenance of Madame Pince appeared from around the corner, her sunken cheeks, her skin like parchment, and her long hooked nose..."(HBP US HB 307).

Very similar descriptions, I'm sure this has been disgussed a while back, just thought I'd put it out there as it has been a while and it caught my eye when I was reading HBP last night...



Puck - Jun 21, 2006 11:03 am (#1738 of 2970)
Pince is close to Prince, as well.



Dr Filibuster - Jun 21, 2006 1:32 pm (#1739 of 2970)
Well spotted Geauxtigers.

I never made the connection, but you're right, others did. Do a search on the forum for a very interesting thread all about this.

"Irma Pince" is also an anagram of "I'm a Prince"

Edit: It's the Eileen Prince thread that discusses the IPISM (Irma Pince is Snape's mum) theory. It's lurking in the "wizards, witches, muggles, squibs, ghosts etc" section in the group folder.



Magic Words - Jun 21, 2006 2:14 pm (#1740 of 2970)
Do we know her first name is Irma? I don't remember ever seeing it.



TheSaint - Jun 21, 2006 3:14 pm (#1741 of 2970)
Yes, we do.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]



Magic Words - Jun 21, 2006 3:35 pm (#1742 of 2970)
Hmm... I was pretty skeptical, but that almost works out too well to be coincidence... just move the r ...



journeymom - Jun 23, 2006 2:20 pm (#1743 of 2970)
Gawd, poor Snape; his mother is romantically linked to Filch! Lol!



Madame Pomfrey - Jun 23, 2006 3:00 pm (#1744 of 2970)
In Snapes memory,the man yelling at the cowering woman was also described as having a hooked nose.Poor Snape,he was destined for that nose.



Puck - Jun 23, 2006 7:28 pm (#1745 of 2970)
Muggles and squibs? Perhaps Eileen was attracted to non magical men.



Madame Pomfrey - Jun 24, 2006 7:59 am (#1746 of 2970)
LoL. Puck,I think you may be on to something.



Soul Search - Jun 25, 2006 7:23 am (#1747 of 2970)
After following the "Eileen Prince" and "Why Dumbledore Trusts Sanpe" topics I am convinced that Irma Pince and Filch are Snape's parents, in hiding. Dumbledore trusts Snape because Dumbledore saved his parents from Voldemort, or something like that. This is linked to "Snape's Remorse" at revealing the prophecy to Voldemort because Voldemort told Snape he would kill his parents if Snape didn't get the rest of the prophecy. Something similar to Voldemort giving Draco an "impossible task."

Not only is there a physical resemblance among Snape, Madame Pince, and Filch, but Filch seems to fit as Snape's father. He's mean, nasty, and enjoys hurting children.

The ruse of Filch being a squib is part of the cover story; Filch is really a muggle. Why would anyone hire a squib/muggle for a job at Hogwarts? Why would a squib/muggle seek the position? Filch is the only non-magical entity at Hogwarts. There are plants that can do more than Filch!

Tobias Snape had to go into hiding, and caretaker was the only possible job for him. He doesn't like it, but it is a little better than being dead.

I will go even further and suggest that their true identity will be revealed to Harry and he will then start to puzzle over whether Snape is the evil villian he thinks him to be. Keep in mind that at the end of HBP Harry has not yet left Hogwarts.



TheSaint - Jun 25, 2006 7:52 am (#1748 of 2970)
Why would Filch buy quickspell? Why is he referred to as 'failed wizard?' How would he have a link to mrs. Norris?



Soul Search - Jun 25, 2006 8:31 am (#1749 of 2970)
TheSaint,

"Why would Filch buy quickspell?"

Quickspell was billed as a way for squibs (or muggles?) to appear to do some magic. Filch is surrounded by magic and kids who can do magic. He was hoping he could do some too.

"Why is he referred to as 'failed wizard?'"

Only a very few know who he really is. To most, he is a squib.

"How would he have a link to mrs. Norris?"

I have no idea. Does seem strange that someone like Filch, or Tobias Snape, would have a fondness for a cat.



DJ Evans - Jun 25, 2006 10:34 am (#1750 of 2970)
Not that I buy into the Filch/Pince are Snape's parents -- would have to give that some serious thought -- but The Saint asked How would he have a link to Mrs. Norris?. Maybe Mrs. Norris is Irma Pince transformed so Filch could be with his wife more often? It would /could be one way to explain his closeness to Mrs. Norris.....

Later, Deb

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Choices - Jun 25, 2006 10:44 am (#1751 of 2970)
How could Madam Pince be in the library overseeing that area and also following Filch around the castle?

No, I tend to think Mr. Snape is gone/dead and Madam Pince (if she is Mother Snape) is in hiding to protect her from the DE's/Voldemort while son Severus does his spy thing.



Finn BV - Jun 25, 2006 11:51 am (#1752 of 2970)
So Filchy would be Snape's step-father??



Lina - Jun 25, 2006 1:05 pm (#1753 of 2970)
The fact that Snape went to Filch with his wounded leg in PS/SS would fit into theory that Filch is Mr. Snape, too.



Soul Search - Jun 25, 2006 1:09 pm (#1754 of 2970)
Good pickup, Lina.

The only other time we see them interacting, that I can think of, is in GoF when Harry is stuck in the stair. Didn't seem like any family relationship there, but both would have to act a bit, anyway.



zelmia - Jun 25, 2006 1:43 pm (#1755 of 2970)
Sorry, but that theory sounds perilously similar to the notorious "Lupin is really James" idea, which was (mercifully) finally put to rest by Jo herself.
Remember the KISS motto that any decent writer such as our Jo follows: Keep it simple, S______.
If there is no opportunity to reveal such a convoluted backstory, than such a side-plot as "Filch is really Tobias Snape" is not likely ever to become a part of the main storyline. And in this case I don't even believe it is part of the storyline full stop.
Madame Pince may well be Eileen Prince (there is certainly more "evidence" to support that, at least). But Filch is a Squib and NOT a Muggle. He even identified himself as such ("[Harry] knows I'm a... a Squib!" - CS). Remember that Squibs come from Wizard parents. Muggles do not.



wynnleaf - Jun 25, 2006 2:07 pm (#1756 of 2970)
Filch is a squib. As zelmia states, he said so himself, and during a point of stress when he is obviously ashamed or at least embarrassed to be a squib. If he were a muggle, he wouldn't feel that way. Also, during the scene on the stairs in GOF, he just doesn't act like anyone who ever had any authority over Snape.

I suppose it's possible that Madame Pince and he have some sort of relationship. Maybe, if she's Eileen, she does have a thing for non-magical people.



zelmia - Jun 25, 2006 3:37 pm (#1757 of 2970)
Thanks, Wynnleaf. I wanted also to respond to the question Why would anyone hire a squib/muggle for a job at Hogwarts? Why would a squib/muggle seek the position? (which I forgot to do in my earlier post).

As to the second part, I think the answer is obvious: Because that is the only kind of gainful employment such an individual could expect to find. If he/she is unable - or in Hagrid's case not allowed - to perform even the simplest spells - and more importantly, is not really considered a fully accepted member of Wizard society - then he or she would have to accept a position where Magic is not a factor. To wit, Janitor of a school, Driver of the Knight Bus, Gamekeeper, etc.

Why would a school (or other establishment) employ such an individual? Well, why not?
Again, if Magic does not factor into their duties (though it may certainly make the person's job much easier) then what difference does it make? And there must be more people apart from Dumbledore who lack prejudice in such matters. Who knows? Perhaps Madame Malkin is really a Squib. Perhaps she sews the robes by hand.



Lilly P - Jun 25, 2006 4:40 pm (#1758 of 2970)
Madame Malkin used a wand to "vacume" all the dust off of the robes that Malfoy threw on the ground when his mother said she wouldn't buy them now that she knows what kind of people shop there.



Choices - Jun 25, 2006 4:40 pm (#1759 of 2970)
To my recollection, we have never heard Mr. Filch described as "hook-nosed", as I think Mr. Snape was, therefore I tend to think that perhaps Mr. Snape was killed/died and Filch is Madam Pince's/Prince's boyfriend (not Snape's father). For some odd reason that makes me laugh. Filch....a boyfriend? LOL



journeymom - Jun 25, 2006 4:45 pm (#1760 of 2970)
"The fact that Snape went to Filch with his wounded leg in PS/SS would fit into theory that Filch is Mr. Snape, too. " That's the scene! I knew there was a scene between Snape and Filch in PS/SS, I just couldn't remember what.

However, I'm in the Filch is not Snape's dad, and is concretely a squib. And as far as Mrs Norris is concerned, I can't point to where, but it seems to me JKR confirmed that Mrs Norris is not the ex-Mrs Filch, but simply a cat.

But the more I think on this the more I'm doubting it. Filch's description in the Lexicon does sound similar to Snape's. They both have a penchant for roaming the halls and breaking up students.



Finn BV - Jun 25, 2006 6:29 pm (#1761 of 2970)
I think we're mixing two different fancrufts here: number one is that Filch and Pince are an item. JKR said so, it's in HBP. Done.

The other is that Madam Pince is (possibly) Snape's Mom, or MPISM. This theory can be found at the extremely entertaining Abracapocus, "+ Eileen Prince" #, 10 Aug 2005 6:18 am.

Suddenly, we clashed. Just because Irma Pince could be Eileen Prince, Mrs. Snape, doesn't mean that Filch is Mr. Snape. Tobias Snape ? dead, divorced, who knows? Women go on looking for other men.



zelmia - Jun 25, 2006 9:08 pm (#1762 of 2970)
Edited Jun 25, 2006 11:04 pm
Filch and Mme Pince are an item and JKR said so???? I must have completely missed that. In fact I did miss that. Would you be so kind as to cite that particular canon reference? Thanks much.

Anyway, something else that came up with regard to HBP: The Diary aka the first Horcrux. Dumbledore says that he believes that Lucius Malfoy was unaware of the Diary's true significance to Voldemort. But Dobby knew precisely what the Diary was. As was mentioned on the old Diary Thread, this seems not to completely jive.

Was it that Dobby with his "special brand of Elf Magic" could discern a Horcrux for what it was? Or was it simply that Dobby knew his master's mind and what he was likely to do.

EDIT: Okay I see the Pince/Filch possible hook-up references now. Hm...



Lina - Jun 25, 2006 10:04 pm (#1763 of 2970)
Firstly, I wouldn't want to upset anybody. I'm not feeling sure that Irma Pince is Eileen Prince nor that she isn't. The same way I feel about Filch being Snape's father. The same way I feel about many other things. But I like to play with the facts when I manage to see them.

If my memory is correct, Eileen Prince has a hooked nose in the newspaper picture. So the man that is yelling at the woman in Snape's memory doesn't necessarily have to be Snape's father. I'm not saying that it isn't, just that we have no reason to be certain about it. And since JKR likes to lead us to the wrong path, that could be anybody.

While about the Pince and Filch relationship, the two of them came together to DD's funeral. Yet, she had a thick black veil, so it was not possible to see her face. It could have been Snape in disguise or somebody else. But the narrator says that it is her and something to the effect that the students suspected that relationship.

Doby and the Diary: this is totally my construction and I can not claim that as a fact, but I believe that Lucius knew that the Diary can open the CoS and didn't know that it was a Horcrux and that Doby just heard him saying that to somebody. I don't think that Doby knew it was a Horcrux, just that he thought that opening of the CoS would be dangerous.



Mrs. D. - Jun 25, 2006 10:28 pm (#1764 of 2970)
Lina- I agree with your feelings regarding Dobby, the diary, and it being a Horcrux. I felt the Pince/Filch thing was just a nod to fans to make them chuckle due to all the fan fiction and theories that abound.

Frankly, if Jo puts as much research and thought into every detail of her books as we would like to believe, it is a complete wonder they are ever finished at all. I have a hard time believing she can do that kind of studying, writing, and managing a life and family when I am lucky to get the laundry folded in a timely manner. LOL!

On a side note, when she is done with book 7, I would love daily or weekly even blog entries on her site just filling us in on life in the WW, a bit like a soap opera. Just to have little tidbits on the lives of the characters I have come to love would be so fun.



Lina - Jun 25, 2006 11:16 pm (#1765 of 2970)
Mrs. D., I must say that I agree with each sentence of your post.



TheSaint - Jun 26, 2006 1:35 am (#1766 of 2970)
I would think the man yelling in Snape's memory may be Eileen's family. She would be a Pureblood, I believe, and her relationship with a muggle may not have been the best of news. Maybe she was disowned. Maybe something happened to Tobias and she had to come crawling back to her family. Lots of possabilities.



Finn BV - Jun 26, 2006 3:11 pm (#1767 of 2970)
Zelmia, I just looked through the TLC/MN interview with JKR last year, because I could have sworn that they talked briefly about Filch and Pince and how they liked that pairing, but apparently they didn't. (Not that I can find, but I was almost positive? maybe somewhere else?) Anyway, there is that reference in the book.



zelmia - Jun 26, 2006 6:29 pm (#1768 of 2970)
Thank, Finn. I went ahead and looked it up. Harry tells Hermione (ch 15, I think) that he's "always felt there was something between [Filch and Mme Pince]". Hm. Seems an odd remark from someone who is not known for noticing other people's romantic inclinations, eh?

Can't believe I missed that though.



So Sirius - Jun 27, 2006 6:35 am (#1769 of 2970)
A couple paragraphs in the book stand out and I wanted to get opinions on how you interpret them.

1. When Harry's dreaming: "Harry's mind worked feverishly and his dreams, when he finally fell asleep, were broken and disturbed by images of malfoy, who turned into Slughorn, who turned into Snape..."

Harry's dreams are somewhat important. The fact that Slughorn is in this mix, makes me wonder.

2. "Harry swore. Someone screamed. He looked around to see a gaggle of first years running back around the corner, apparently under the impression that they had just encountered a particularly foulmouthed ghost."

This one, to me, seems as though some young girls ran into Peeves. My problem with this, though, is how it's placed in the story and why? Harry is in the process of trying to open the Room of Requirement to find out what Draco is up to. He kicks the wall when it doesn't open, then this paragraph. What for? I mean, is it vital to know this info or was JKR just trying to break up the story a bit and had some extra room for a paragraph in the book, for nothing in particular? Or, is it something? Is it Peeves at all, that these girls are screaming at? If it is Peeves, has Draco hired him to keep a lookout, as well? Any ideas?



haymoni - Jun 27, 2006 6:42 am (#1770 of 2970)
Is Harry under the Invisibility Cloak? If so, and he swore, the girls wouldn't see anything, so they would think that they had run into a foulmouthed ghost.

I doubt Draco could make Peeves do anything.



So Sirius - Jun 27, 2006 7:10 am (#1771 of 2970)
Oh lol I didn't see it like that, because I assumed the girls were around the corner at the time, or farther away and it wasn't Harry they heard. But, you're probably right. Smile Sorry.



Choices - Jun 27, 2006 9:34 am (#1772 of 2970)
That's how I saw it too Haymoni - Harry was invisible under the cloak and swore and scared the first years - they thought it was a ghost that swore since they couldn't see Harry.



Lina - Jun 27, 2006 1:26 pm (#1773 of 2970)
I think that the girls were Crabbe and Goyle under the effects of the Polyjuice potion.



zelmia - Jun 28, 2006 1:20 pm (#1774 of 2970)
I just think it was "odd" that Harry could never get into the RoR whilst Draco was there. Draco had no problem at all getting in when the DA were having their practices in the Room. I find it strange that precise wording was so important. Why couldn't Harry have just said, "I need to find Draco Malfoy?"



Magic Words - Jun 28, 2006 2:02 pm (#1775 of 2970)
It sounds like the room works on a first-come, first-served basis. Harry said something along the lines of "we need a place to learn to fight." He didn't say it had to be a place Malfoy couldn't enter. I'm sure Malfoy said something more like "I need a place where no one will find me" (remember, the cabinet showed up when Harry hid the Potions book). If the room let Harry find him, it wouldn't be providing what he needed.



haymoni - Jun 28, 2006 7:20 pm (#1776 of 2970)
When did Draco interrupt a DA meeting?

I thought they got in because everyone left the ROR in such a hurry, nobody bothered to close the door.



virginiaelizabeth - Jun 28, 2006 8:27 pm (#1777 of 2970)
That's what I thought too haymoni, everyone was running frantically around and th RoR was simply left open.



Denise P. - Jun 29, 2006 2:36 pm (#1778 of 2970)
I am once again attempting to plow through HBP and something jumped out at me.

We already know in the first year, students are told Students may also bring an owl OR a cat OR a toad. (which opens up the age old discussion how Ron could have Scabbers)

As far as we know, that rule has not changed yet Ginny brings Arnold, her pygmy puff with her to Hogwarts. I would think pets would be frowned on and while the owl, cat or toad is a pet, they also have a useful function. As far as I can tell, the puffs only look cute.

Hmmm, maybe this should go on the Pygmy Puff thread.



smurf - Jun 29, 2006 3:41 pm (#1779 of 2970)
Something I don't understand - In HBP when Harry is selecting the Gryffindor quidditch team there are a number of first years trying out. I thought first years weren't allowed to play (Harry was a special exception) or did the rules change after Harry was selected in his first year?

As to the pet issue, I think the "Students may also bring an owl OR a cat OR a toad." rule still applies, students just smuggle other pets in anyway - kind of like how cell phones are banned in some schools but students insist on bringing them anyway.



Choices - Jun 29, 2006 5:32 pm (#1780 of 2970)
I think Ron tells Harry that first years never make the Quidditch team. Harry is the youngest house player in a century. I know first years are not allowed to bring broomsticks, so if they get on the team a special allowance must be made for them to have a broom.



zelmia - Jun 29, 2006 8:23 pm (#1781 of 2970)
With regard to the First Years trying out for Quidditch, there is apparently nothing to indicate that First Year are not allowed to play Quidditch. They simply don't seem to ever make the team.

"Quidditch trials will be held in the second week of the term. Anyone interested in playing for their house teams should contact Madam Hooch." - Dumbledore (PS/SS - Ch 7)

"You're joking."
It was dinnertime. Harry had just finished telling Ron what had happened when he'd left the grounds with Professor McGonagall...
"Seeker?" he said. "But first years never - you must be the youngest house player in about -" - Ron (ibid ch 9).



haymoni - Jun 30, 2006 4:46 am (#1782 of 2970)
Lee Jordan had that tarantula - I'm guessing it's like any other rule!



deletedaccount - Jun 30, 2006 2:55 pm (#1783 of 2970)
I found it odd in the POA that Harry was able to go back in time to save his own life from the dementors; however, had he not lived through the attack in the first place, he couldn't have been in the future to go back in time. So the fact that he was in the future to go back in time indicates that he didn't die originally from the attack, but he was able to go back in time to prevent further damage to himself and change how he survived in the first place.



Lilly P - Jun 30, 2006 3:25 pm (#1784 of 2970)
Thank you Mezuzas! I've been trying to put that into words myself, but couldn't quite make it come out coherent.



Steve Newton - Jun 30, 2006 4:32 pm (#1785 of 2970)
Mezuzas, I think your mistake is in thinking that there was ever a reality the did not have 2 Harry's there. Both are occurring at the same time and the Future Harry is always there. Go back a ways and you will find much circular discussion of the point.



Amilia Smith - Jun 30, 2006 4:32 pm (#1786 of 2970)
There's some really good stuff in the Time Travel thread (hiding down in the Theories folder) that you might be interested in. S.E. Jones has a great explanation here.

It all makes my head hurt.

Mills.



deletedaccount - Jun 30, 2006 4:46 pm (#1787 of 2970)
Yes, it gives me a headache too, and the explanations to me are impossible. In order for there to have been two Harrys, Harry would've had to have made it to the future to go back in time. I still love Sirius though and I was glad he was saved for a short while. Sirius was my favorite character, next to Hedwig and Albus. I've even been naming my pet hamsters after HP characters. Albus the hamster died a couple years ago though. I currently have a Hagrid, Molly, and Susan (I call her Suzie though) after Susan Bones. I've in the past also had a Hermione.

Another thing I find odd is how ironic that the fake Moody actually helped Harry without maybe realizing it. Moody had Harry practice the imperious curse over and over again until Harry fought it off, so Harry was able to fight it off when he faced Voldemort in the grave yard.

Also, the fake Moody was actually a pretty good DADA teacher. Had he chosen a different path for himself, he would've had a promising future.



The giant squid - Jun 30, 2006 10:56 pm (#1788 of 2970)
Mezuzas, that's a classic time-travel paradox. It's the opposite number of the old "travel back in time & kill your past self so your future self doesn't exist to go back in time to kill your past self". It's unexplainable in a real-world, scientific method. The only way to explain it is "It's magic". Believe me, it pains me to have to leave it at that, but that's all we've got.

--Mike



Choices - Jul 1, 2006 9:48 am (#1789 of 2970)
Well done, Giant Squid. That really is an excellent non-explanation. LOL Mezuzas, just tell yourself, "It's magic", and leave it at that. Otherwise you'll give your a giant headache trying to figure it out.



Kneazle - Jul 1, 2006 11:37 pm (#1790 of 2970)
As to the question of Mrs. Norris actually being Madame Pince here is what JK had to say:

Mrs. Norris is an unregistered animagus;

25/12/05

"No, she is just an intelligent (and unpleasant ) cat." --Rumours section JK site.



Kneazle - Jul 1, 2006 11:37 pm (#1791 of 2970)
I've just recently came back to the forum and I don't know if this subject has been brought up; Was anyone else curious as to why Tonks was wandering the 7th floor late at night in HBP? Was it just a mention to emphasize how distraught she had become or was there another motive behind it? Her presence was never explained fully. It just left me hanging to wonder "huh?"



TheSaint - Jul 2, 2006 5:40 am (#1792 of 2970)
I thought it was because she had heard a rumor about Greyback attacking someone and had rushed off to Dumbledore to make sure it was not Lupin.



Magic Words - Jul 2, 2006 5:49 am (#1793 of 2970)
That I never quite understood. Wouldn't Lupin be safer around Greyback than most people?

I can't remember where Dumbledore was that night, but she could have been on guard. He says he never left the castle unprotected.



TheSaint - Jul 2, 2006 5:50 am (#1794 of 2970)
No, he would not be safer around Greyback, since he is spying for DD. He does not really belong and should they find out I have no doubt they would attack him.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 2, 2006 11:23 am (#1795 of 2970)
"Nothing in particular," said Tonks, picking, apparently unconsciously, at the sleeve of her robe.

"What?" said Tonks blankly, as though she had not heard him.

"It?s a bit odd," said Hermione, who for some reason looked very concerned. "She's supposed to be guarding the school, why she suddenly abandoning her post to come and see Dumbledore when he's not even here?"

Confunded, impersonated? That whole scene was odd.



geauxtigers - Jul 2, 2006 7:07 pm (#1796 of 2970)
I agree TBE, theres something to it, but the question is "what?" Could just be JKR's way of showing how depressed Tonks is, but shes already done that, so whats the need to do it again?



totyle - Jul 4, 2006 12:06 am (#1797 of 2970)
Hi Im new to posting but have been an avid reader of this forum since HBP was released, I have read through and searched as much as I possibly can in this forum and havent come across answers to my questions regarding what i think is Harry's rather 'odd' behaviour when in the Muggle World. The nearest to approaching this subject is under the Essays Harry's Things and Why did Harry Do That..but even these fail to answer these questions I have in mind :

1. Why doesnt Harry change some of his Wizarding money to Muggle money when at Diagon Alley? We see Hermione's parents wanting to change Muggle Money to Wizarding Money in CoS so it must be possible to do the reverse. He then could go shopping at the nearest High Street shops when he is back at Privet Drive for some decent jeans and shirts and socks instead of wearing hand me downs. Also, I guess more importantly (more important than clothes?!!) he could buy food stuff/snacks etc whatever takes his fancy to take him through the summer holidays. It would not be too difficult to hide from the Dursleys where he got the money from..as we know Harry is not averse to telling fibs where the Dursleys are concerned (who's to blame him)

2. Why doesnt he and Hermione meet up or chat? Maybe they cannot meet up but at least he can call her from a Muggle telephone booth and chat to her when he is feeling desperately lonely.

Is it a guy thing? Does he dislike shopping for clothes or having tasted pumpkin pasties doesnt crave for a juicy hamburger-or he just doesnt miss what he's never had-not having been able to afford to do it before? Does he think chatting on the phone with Hermione is a girly thing? He seems to suffer so much during the holidays when he can actually do something about it. Shopping would certainly take my mind off even the Dursleys!

It bugs me or maybe Im just not 'getting' how the emotional house- arrest at Privet Drive has affected him....



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 4, 2006 2:24 am (#1798 of 2970)
"Nothing in particular," said Tonks, picking, apparently unconsciously, at the sleeve of her robe.

This one sentence screams at me DE.

...toddles off to wonder why...



haymoni - Jul 4, 2006 3:32 am (#1799 of 2970)
Totyle - I wondered about buying clothes, too. I wonder if it is Harry wanting to be part of the Wizarding World that he almost shuns things in the Muggle World.



Midori - Jul 4, 2006 3:43 am (#1800 of 2970)
TwinklingBlueEyes, what an interesting hint....I was curious , there must be some reason why JKR dont have Tonks in list of persons she used to wish a Happy B'Day...Its possible that she doesnt consider her "important" enough character to be honoured to be in that list, or I saw it as a sign of her possible death in the end of story....or...Tonks is not what she seems to be? {while honestly, I dont think she turn to be a negative character, according to the way JKR was talking about her in her interviews}

I always wondered one detail. In OotP Lupin takes part in battle in MoM. He was seen by DE, even Bella, and probably LV. They perfectly can draw conclusions what side Lupin supports, and understand he is true OoP member. But what we see in HBP? Unexposed spy aka Remus Lupin who is working "deep underground"! How could that be? Even if werewolf's society is pretty detached, as far as they keep in touch (and support Voldemort), they have to exchange information. Especially facts dealing with their security. But to miss an evident spy inside the group!!! Weird, at least.

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deletedaccount - Jul 4, 2006 6:03 am (#1801 of 2970)
Maybe they're on to Lupin and it'll come out in book 7.



Detail Seeker - Jul 4, 2006 11:54 am (#1802 of 2970)
Totyle, to be able to change money, Harry would have to do this Diagon Alley in August, when he buys all his stuff for the following school year to have the money ready coming July. Quite a time of preplanning for a sixteen year old. So this is quite realistic, that he does not do it. Also, this is outside of Mrs. Weasleys thinking, who would not think about the fact, that Muggles have different money. She has no necessity to use it.

To be able to chat to Hermione on the phone, harry would need access to it without one of the Dursleys present. That seems to be pretty seldom. Therefore, and Harry remembering Vernon Dursley´s reaction to Ron´s call, I wonder if harry would have seen sense in asking Hermione for her number.

Harry thinks in magic ways of communication, mainly in flooing, if writing and owl post are not viable.



totyle - Jul 4, 2006 6:21 pm (#1803 of 2970)
Edited by Jul 4, 2006 8:42 pm
I guess you're right..it doesnt do to put on a 38 year old mom's cap on when reading regarding a teen who shuns everything muggle..!! Harry does behave like he is living 'in transit' during the summer hols...

Having to bring Uncle Vernon's socks to school(PoA) ...if anything THAT is most pitiful...!

Another 'odd' thing I noticed which I'm sure must have been commented on before but I cant find it is the over casual attitude of Gringotts bank with regards to withdrawals on behalf of Harry...seems to be such a lax attitude to allow the Weasleys access to his gold..they arent even his legal guardians..even with an insider working there..it seems funny by our world standards...seems open to abuse in the hands of the less trustworthy other than the Weasleys..Harry does'nt even need to give an authorisation letter or something along those lines..



haymoni - Jul 5, 2006 4:46 am (#1804 of 2970)
That's funny - I didn't even think about Molly taking out Harry's money!

I know we questioned the wisdom of Gringotts when talking about Sirius - a wanted criminal - using his money to buy the Firebolt for Harry.

I guess I never questioned the wonderful Mrs. Weasley! Goodness!



Lilly P - Jul 5, 2006 4:56 am (#1805 of 2970)
Didn't Molly say that Bill had gotten the money for her? or am I remembering wrong? I'm just about to start my re-read, it's been a while. It's still not right for our standards, but I'm sure it was no problem really for Bill to do it.



Madame Pomfrey - Jul 5, 2006 5:44 am (#1806 of 2970)
I think that both Bill and Molly, on separate occasions, made withdrawals for Harry.I found this odd also.It seems that they do this without asking Harry first.



haymoni - Jul 5, 2006 5:45 am (#1807 of 2970)
I thought Molly used Harry's money to buy his books and dress robes in GOF and that Bill got Harry's money in HBP because "'ee eez so thoughtful".



der 905 - Jul 5, 2006 7:04 am (#1808 of 2970)
Maybe for the Weasley's to withdraw money from Harry's account all they need is his "pin" number. :-)

As for Harry not taking money into the muggle world, I got the impression that he did know that he could, but the last thing he was going to do is let the Dursley's know he had money. Remember, Vernon's reaction when DD said Harry inherited Sirius's money?



Lilly P - Jul 5, 2006 7:36 am (#1809 of 2970)
I could just see them demanding "rent" and and paying half of the utilities and also demanding back payments as well, I sure wouldn't want to tell them I had money if I were Harry.



Choices - Jul 5, 2006 9:27 am (#1810 of 2970)
Maybe when Dumbledore (??) set up Harry's account with Gringotts, he listed those who could get money from Harry's account for him - Hagrid, Weasleys, etc. Hagrid did have a key to Harry's vault, so maybe that is all that is needed. Harry could have given the key to Molly, and perhaps Bill, as an employee, didn't need it.



Die Zimtzicke - Jul 5, 2006 10:32 am (#1811 of 2970)
I talked about this on another thread. The goblins must be real loose canons to let Sirius, who was a wanted man, send a cat to get money for a broomstick, and Molly to get into Harry's vault without Harry being present. Bill, too, even if he works there. I think it would be suspicious if employees just went into anyone's vault any time they pleased. It would look bad to me.

If Hagrid, for example, could have gotten into Harry's vault, he could havc done that first and not had to take Harry to Gringotts at all. They could have just shopped and gotten it over with. Having a student see him ready to hurl over a cart ride isn't something I think Hagrid would have actively wanted to do if he could have avoided it.

One thing that is odd to me, in connection with that, is whose side are the Goblins on? The Goblins seem to be wild cards, and it's odd that they are running so clearly in the middle of the fray. They're not pro-wizarding government, and they aren't pro-Voldemort, as far as we know. Will they matter when the war gets going full throttle?



Choices - Jul 5, 2006 11:34 am (#1812 of 2970)
I think Hagrid taking Harry to Gringotts was primarily an instructive thing. He was showing Harry the ropes, so to speak, and he wanted Harry to see the gold that his parents had left him. Hagrid wanted Harry to know that he had been provided for.



zelmia - Jul 5, 2006 1:49 pm (#1813 of 2970)
Indeed, Choices. And also Hagrid had instructions from Dumbledore how to proceed with regard to Harry.
As for Hagrid not wanting a student to see him being sick over the side of the cart, well as Hagrid himself says, "Better out than in". I really don't think that sort of thing bothers Hagrid.



TheSaint - Jul 5, 2006 3:23 pm (#1814 of 2970)
I have wondered..in PS..we go to Gringotts to withdraw money from Harry's account. The Goblin asks the Hagrid (the keeper of the keys) for the KEY to Harry's vault. Has anyone ever seen this key since? Perhaps the Weasley's have the key? They have been taking care of him in the wizarding world all these years.



Choices - Jul 5, 2006 4:27 pm (#1815 of 2970)
Zelmia, I agree with the "better out than in" thing. LOL Hagrid deals with all sorts of animals and he has pretty much seen it all in regards to their care----what's a little "being sick over the side" to him? I imagine he has delt with worse - like Ron hurling slugs.



totyle - Jul 5, 2006 6:25 pm (#1816 of 2970)
Edited by Jul 5, 2006 7:38 pm
Die Zimtzicke, in Sirius' letter to Harry it doesnt read like Crookshanks was sent to get the money. Sirius says he sent Crookshanks to the Owl Office to place the order for the broomstick, with the insruction for the money to be 'debited' from Sirius' account. Crookshanks could have taken an Owl Order form for Sirius which he filled with the necessary details. I dont think the goblins would have minded as long as the amount in the account was sufficient to cover the order.

Haymoni is right, there were two occassions where the Weasleys casually mention that they have taken the money out for Harry (GoF and HBP). In GoF Molly even takes the liberty of buying stuff on his behalf too, which was a nice thing to do treating him like her son but it would have been nice of her to ask him first if it was ok...!



Die Zimtzicke - Jul 5, 2006 9:23 pm (#1817 of 2970)
I's just such a contrast. At first Harry doesn't seem to want Molly to know how much money he has. He tries to hide it, because he feels bad she hadn't got as much, but then we're supposed to think he sends her to get his money out to buy him clothes? I just don't see why he would change his opinions so quickly, or how she could have gone without his permission. It's one or the other, and neither make sense. I do not think she should have the key. She's not his mother, and he doesn't want her to have parental authority over him. Remember that big row in OotP between her and Sirius about that? Harry didn't like her "mollycoddling" and that's a pretty telling choice of words. I don't think he gave her the key to keep.

Neither does it make sense for me for the goblins to take money out of the account of a wanted criminal like Sirius was, with such a huge price on his head. If nothing else, wouldn't they have wanted to try to trace him to get the big reward?

Hagrid seemed surprised that Harry didn't know he had money, just as he seemed surprised that Harry knew nothing of the wizarding world. I don't think he deliberately planned on showing Harry the ropes so to speak. I think he assumed Harry knew more than he did. He certainly didn't plan on telling him other things, like about why he was famous and about Voldemort, that he wound up having to tell him.



totyle - Jul 5, 2006 9:42 pm (#1818 of 2970)
Ok Im working my way down a list...! Another oddity...how come Harry gets homework set for the SUMMER holidays...any other holidays during term time is ok to have homework but during summer holidays??? I know it's very trivial and nothing to do with the story line but to me that is odd. The school system we have, you can have homework during the term/semester holidays but not when you're on your "before start of the next school year" holidays. This is due to teachers/subjects/syllabus change as you move up another level. At Hogwarts the teachers more or less remain the same but even so what would the homework cover, subjects already tested upon on the final year end exam? Or subjects yet to be covered in the next year? Odd!



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 5, 2006 10:28 pm (#1819 of 2970)
Maybe the same reason there are summer reading book lists?



totyle - Jul 5, 2006 10:39 pm (#1820 of 2970)
There are summer reading book lists..??? Different countries different norms then...! Our year end hol.s are a complete break on everything school related. Im from Malaysia by the way...



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 5, 2006 10:43 pm (#1821 of 2970)
Ahh! I see. USA here.



Laura W - Jul 6, 2006 1:08 am (#1822 of 2970)
Actually, i always wondered about that too, Totyle. Like you said, they were already tested on the previous year's lessons. And they have not yet picked up their books from Diagon Alley for next year. (Harry, Hermoine and the Weasleys always go pick up their books and stuff late in August.) What homework are they doing??

And ... although I went to school a thousand years ago; when I went to elementary school, high school and college - in Canada - the end of the school year was the end of the school year. Period. As in, "no more pencils, no more books, no more teachers' dirty looks." (Unless one had to repeat a subject at summer school, of course.) Summer was a time to go somewhere on vacation, get a job or just lounge around annoying your parents. I, too, have never heard of summer reading book lists.

Laura



zelmia - Jul 6, 2006 1:22 am (#1823 of 2970)
Until he hit his NEWT level classes, Harry's books were the same with the exception of Transfiguration and Charms (The Standard Book of Spells Grade 1, 2, 3, etc). So I don't find it odd at all that he was assigned homework for the summer.
Remember, these are instructors who expect their students to have read at least part of the books on the first day of term - particularly Snape and Lockhart. Lockhart gave a 50 point exam! Snape only asked a few questions.



Laura W - Jul 6, 2006 2:09 am (#1824 of 2970)
Yeah, but Lockhart just wanted his students to read his books in advance because he wanted them to already know what a great and accomplished wizard he is (snort) before they actually meet him. He probably couldn't stand the thought of them going until Sept.1 without knowing his favourite colour.

Quite frankly, I think it would be potentially dangerous for underaged wizards and witches to be learning *anything* magical on their own. This is not stuff to be playing around with (excepting Forge and Gred). Just look at what happened when Harry tried out Sectumsempra.

And again, there's the issue of whether they are doing this summer homework from last year's textbooks or next year's textbooks (which they haven't bought yet). And how could Harry do his homework under his bed covers while his wand is locked in the cupboard under the stairs? He needs his wand in Charms, Transfiguration, DADA, and Herbology class. Surely, he would need it for at least part of his "summer homework" in one or all of these subjects as well.

Anyway, maybe this really isn't worth pursuing but, suffice to say that it struck Totyle and me as odd, which is why it got mention on this thread.

Laura



darien - Jul 6, 2006 2:22 am (#1825 of 2970)
Well they arent allowed to do magic outside school so they would be doing only essays and reading with the purpose of keeping things hot on their minds(instead of forgetting it all over the summer) and not to learn anything new.



Laura W - Jul 6, 2006 2:31 am (#1826 of 2970)
Funny you should say that, darien.

PS, Chapter Seventeen, p.220 (Raincoast). The end-of-year feast: " 'Another year gone!' Dumbledore said cheerfully. '... What a year it has been! Hopefully your heads are all a little fuller than they were ... you have the whole summer ahead to get them nice and empty before next year starts ...' "

Thanks for reminding me of this.

Laura



Magic Words - Jul 6, 2006 5:07 am (#1827 of 2970)
In my school (USA) we generally had Language Arts homework over the summer- reading books and writing essays on them. So I could see where Harry might have a few essays, but nothing that involves actual magic. That he wouldn't have next year's textbooks hadn't occurred to me. Maybe they don't quite go through a book a year, so the next year starts out with finishing the old book.



Kneazle - Jul 6, 2006 9:59 am (#1828 of 2970)


Choices - Jul 5, 2006 10:27 am (#1809 of 1826) Maybe when Dumbledore (??) set up Harry's account with Gringotts, he listed those who could get money from Harry's account for him - Hagrid, Weasleys, etc. Hagrid did have a key to Harry's vault, so maybe that is all

Dumbledore may have set it up where Hagrid and himself would have access to Harry's account, but remember Harry had no affiliation with the Weasley's until he started school.



journeymom - Jul 6, 2006 11:34 am (#1829 of 2970)
Magic Words, I'm an 'merican as well, but never heard of summer reading lists until I was an adult. I always figured Harry was trying to get ahead on his own when he studied during the summer break. Though that doesn't fit well with Harry's usual study habits.



Choices - Jul 6, 2006 12:38 pm (#1830 of 2970)
Kneazle, I did not necessarily mean that Dumbledore did that the moment he opened the account, but he could have done it later after Harry had established a relationship with Ron and the Weasleys.



Dr Filibuster - Jul 6, 2006 2:43 pm (#1831 of 2970)
Who issued this homework?

Hmmm, Prof Binns (and Snape? can't remember). Binns didn't let a little thing like death stop him teaching, so why should he give pupils the whole summer hols off?

I finished my comprehensive school (in England) a couple of years after JKR left her school. I vaguely remember being disgruntled at summer homework. I don't think we had much and only a few teachers issued it; those we'd have again next term. I presume they thought we'd forget everything in our 6 week break. Maybe they just loved marking?

As for the Bank's security and access regulations, well, I don't think Jo would have been overly concerned about writing down all the procedures. I work for goblins myself but would still find that dull in a novel. I just accept what she's told us.

Harry could well have given third party authority for others to withdraw funds from his vault years before HBP.

There could be unmentioned charms and spells that ensure the payments from his account are in his best interests.

Goblin wouldn't care if Sirius was an escaped prisoner. They would just say it was nothing to do with them.



TheSaint - Jul 6, 2006 7:06 pm (#1832 of 2970)
I always wondered if the broom order was not just made out in Harry's name, accessing Sirius' account. I don't know that he would have used his own name being at large and all. He may have had Harry on his account already, being his Godfather.



totyle - Jul 6, 2006 7:23 pm (#1833 of 2970)
Edited by Jul 6, 2006 8:30 pm
LOL.."And ... although I went to school a thousand years ago.." it feels like that to me too..but I have a couple of school going kids now and they dont get end of year holiday homework too..

From PoA, the homeworks mentioned were all essays..something like Why Witch burning in mediaeval times was pointless-discuss and another essay for Snape on Shrinking Potions...which upon rereading I find was a subject they later covered in Potions-where Snape tested Neville's potion on his toad..so perhaps the homework was to prepare them for new syllabus for the upcoming term...nice to learn something new anyway that this is practised in some schools in some parts of the world...



Die Zimtzicke - Jul 7, 2006 7:51 pm (#1834 of 2970)
HELP!

Was that bank account Sirius' personal account, or was that at least in part a family account, that Sirius inherited as last of the Blacks? Because I am debating elswhere on if whether or not whatever account the Blacks' had is now Harry's, and if so, could there be stuff in that vault that belonged to the Blacks.

Could Regulus have stored the real locket in there, is what we were discussing...



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 7, 2006 9:51 pm (#1835 of 2970)
I'd imagine that since he was considered a traitor by his family he was not included, more likely cut out of his family's wills.



Amilia Smith - Jul 8, 2006 1:06 am (#1836 of 2970)
However, he did get the family estate.

When Dumbledore is telling Harry about his inheritance, he mentions gold being added to Harry's account. He does not say anything about a Black family vault.

Regardless, I am next door to positive that the real locket is the one they found while they were cleaning out Grimmauld Place. (Just watch. Because I said that out loud, Book 7 is going to come out, and I will be totally wrong.)

Mills.



Laura W - Jul 8, 2006 1:52 am (#1837 of 2970)
TBE, regarding your post --

If Sirius got blasted out of the tapestry, which we know he was, I can't see him being included in the will. That would be a real contradiction to me; thus qualifying it for this "things which struck you as odd" thread. We know his gold ("a decent bit of gold" OoP} came from Uncle Alphard. Whatever was remaining of *this* gold when Snuffles died went to Harry. So, it is not necessarily Black-family gold. It's probably strictly Sirius', from his own vault. On the other hand, Sirius did inherit the house. How could he do that if it wasn't bequeathed to him in a will by the owner (mommy and/or daddy Black)?

I think I'm putting myself under a Confundus Charm here. My brain needs some unfogging about this.



Lilly P - Jul 8, 2006 6:40 am (#1838 of 2970)
I think it was just a matter of vague wording on the part of Sirius' parents, they just said that the house would pass to a Black, I doubt that they had any idea that Sirius would survive Azkaban and be able to claim the house, Im sure that they thought he would die and the house would pass to a distant relation Black like Narcissa or Belatrix (although she was in azkaban too. hmmm....). I think if they had any clue that Sirius would be able to claim the house, they would have changed the wording of thier will to strictly bar him from inheriting the house and whatever goes along with it. JM2KW anyway



Mrs. D. - Jul 8, 2006 7:32 am (#1839 of 2970)
Why really do they need gold? You would think they could just accio whatever they wanted. I can see a will to pass treasures from one to the next. Did it mention somewhere that the food is all prepared by the house elves and then it materializes on the tables? I think that was how it went. My books have been packed for ages! Funny that a wizard could make a stone that helps one to live forever, but can't conjure up a pot roast.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 8, 2006 10:29 am (#1840 of 2970)
"On the other hand, Sirius did inherit the house. How could he do that if it wasn't bequeathed to him in a will by the owner (mommy and/or daddy Black)?"

OoP - "Hasn't anyone told you? This was my parents' house,' said Sirius. 'But I'm the last Black left, so it's mine now. I offered it to Dumbledore for Headquarters - about the only useful thing I've been able to do."

HBP - "Black family tradition decreed that the house was handed down the direct line, to the next male with the name of 'Black.' Sirius was the very last of the line as his younger brother, Regulus, predeceased him and both were childless. While his will makes it perfectly plain that he wants you to have the house, it is nevertheless possible that some spell or enchantment has been set upon the place to ensure that it cannot be owned by anyone other than a pureblood."...

..."Quite," said Dumbledore. "And if such an enchantment exists, then the ownership of the house is most likely to pass to the eldest of Sirius's living relatives, which would mean his cousin, Bellatrix Lestrange."

We have to remember that this is JKR's magical, fictitious world and the rules are hers. Trying to fit a work of fiction into our realistic norms just doesn't work.



Laura W - Jul 9, 2006 1:21 am (#1841 of 2970)
I like your explanation, Lilly.

"HBP - "Black family tradition decreed that the house was handed down the direct line, to the next male with the name of 'Black.'" Yours too, TBE.

So, even without a specific will, family tradition gave Sirius the house whether his parents wanted him to have it or not.

Thanks to both of you.

Laura



Magic Words - Jul 9, 2006 6:38 am (#1842 of 2970)
As there's no male with the name of Black left, maybe this is evidence that Charlus and Dorea were in fact James's parents. Harry could have as much right to the house as Bellatrix.



TheSaint - Jul 9, 2006 8:22 pm (#1843 of 2970)
Nice thought Magic...is Harry, as a male heir, is older than Draco?



Amilia Smith - Jul 9, 2006 10:21 pm (#1844 of 2970)
According to our lovely Lexicon, Draco is older; his birthday is June 5, Harry's is July 31.

Mills.



TheSaint - Jul 10, 2006 3:44 am (#1845 of 2970)
So Draco would be the heir apparent.



virginiaelizabeth - Jul 10, 2006 3:27 pm (#1846 of 2970)
Ok I have been wondering this for a while now. IN OoP ch 37. Dumbledore tells us "My-our-one stroke of good fortune was that the eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the prophecy and thrown from the building."..."He heard the first part, the part foretelling the birth of a boy in July to parents who had thrice defied Voldemort." (843)

Then in HBP Trelawney says "...but then we were interrupted by Severus Snape!"......"Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and there was that rather uncouth barman dtanding with Snape,"(545)

If Snape intterupted them, then how is it that Trelawney knows? When she goes into that transe, she doesn't even know it, so how would she know if they were interrupted if Snape only heard the 1st part? Seems odd to me as hse couldn't pause during the prophecy and then resume. Just struck me as odd.



Mediwitch - Jul 10, 2006 4:01 pm (#1847 of 2970)
Hi Ginny -

This has been discussed somewhere (with no resolution! ) - try a search on the Snape thread, the Trelawney thread or (most likely) the Trelawney and LV thread.



Choices - Jul 10, 2006 5:53 pm (#1848 of 2970)
She knows because she finished the prophesy, came out of her trance in time to see the door burst open and Snape standing there with the barman. The prophesy is not long - it could only have taken a minute or so to say it all - the barman catches Snape halfway through, accosts him asking what he is doing listening at the door and by then Trelawney is finished, the door bursts open and the barman tells Dumbledore he caught an eavesdropper listening at the door.

Snape heard the first part and then was caught. He couldn't hear the second part because he is being questioned by the barman who then throws the door open and informs Dumbledore. Trelawney is out of her trance by then and hears what the barman says and sees Snape outside the door.



virginiaelizabeth - Jul 10, 2006 6:17 pm (#1849 of 2970)
Thanks Choices! I tend to ignore the obvious at times!



geauxtigers - Jul 10, 2006 9:58 pm (#1850 of 2970)
I just read this and it well struck me as odd,

Right after Harry does sectumsempra, Myrtle screams murder in the bathroom ect. Then Snape burts in, goes straight to Malfoy and begins the countercurse. Its odd, it was like Snape knew it was coming, he just appeared like seconds after it happened, goes straight to Malfoy and immeadeatly knows what has happened. Dunno, just seems like he knew can't explain it, but its odd... any thoughts?

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Esther Rose - Jul 11, 2006 5:40 am (#1851 of 2970)
Yes, geuxtigers, Snape's animagus is a Spider. He was just hanging around the bathroom when he saw everything. (Not canon ofcourse.)



azi - Jul 11, 2006 5:56 am (#1852 of 2970)
Maybe Snape was watching Draco to try and find out what he was up to? Or, maybe, he was wondering was Harry was doing?

If you're under an Unbreakable Vow of the kind that you have to protect someone, perhaps you instinctively know if that person is in danger?

I do like the animagus idea though.



Soul Search - Jul 11, 2006 6:02 am (#1853 of 2970)
Snape has been keeping an eye on Draco. Partly because of the vow to help him and partly to find out what he is doing, or how he is doing it.

Snape knows Draco is in the bathroom, sees Harry go in, then hears screams.

Not to hard to figure out that a magical fight has occurred.



haymoni - Jul 11, 2006 6:53 am (#1854 of 2970)
Perhaps his "singing" cure does more than just cure someone after "Sectumsempra".

He saw blood - saw it coming from Draco and started singing.

Can't wait to see Alan Rickman singing!



Choices - Jul 11, 2006 10:01 am (#1855 of 2970)
Esther Rose - " Snape's animagus is a Spider."

You're right, this is not canon. Surely we are not going to have another unregistered animagus - Snape as a spider. I think Hermione would have found out if Snape was a registered animagus and so far she has said nothing about it, and we've already had too many unregistered animagi.



geauxtigers - Jul 11, 2006 10:21 am (#1856 of 2970)
But this took place on the 6th floor, Idunno it just seems odd to me that he just happened to be there at the right moment, even if he was looking in on Draco, this was during the school day, he wasn't teaching...I dunno I'm probably overthinking it...



journeymom - Jul 11, 2006 1:04 pm (#1857 of 2970)
"If you're under an Unbreakable Vow of the kind that you have to protect someone, perhaps you instinctively know if that person is in danger? "

Great point! I'd never made that connection before. I mean, about that scene in the bathroom. If Draco bled to death that would be the end of Snape. Even if Snape isn't magically compelled to sense if Draco's in danger, we already know he was following Draco around at least some of the time. It's reasonable to think he was in the vicinity of the bathroom when Harry found Draco.

I love the idea that Snape is a spider animagus. But Choices is right, it's supposed to be rare and Hermione didn't see Snape on the list.



Magic Words - Jul 11, 2006 1:57 pm (#1858 of 2970)
Could Snape have put some kind of tracking charm on Malfoy? That would explain how quickly he arrived on the tower as well as the Sectumsempra scene.



zelmia - Jul 11, 2006 2:16 pm (#1859 of 2970)
I don't find it odd. Snape is always lurking and skulking around. And he was trailing Draco. That and I'm sure the boys were making quite a bit of noise with their duel.
What I find odd about that scene is that only Snape even looks in. How come no one else wanted to know what was going on?



Mediwitch - Jul 11, 2006 8:23 pm (#1860 of 2970)
geauxtigers: this was during the school day, he wasn't teaching.

Teachers do get some free periods!



geauxtigers - Jul 11, 2006 8:36 pm (#1861 of 2970)
I know, I was just over-thinking it, Zelmia is right, I agree with that, it was just one of those late-night brain wave trigger moments. Yall did exactly what I needed, made me come to reasons with myself!



Mediwitch - Jul 12, 2006 5:45 pm (#1862 of 2970)
geauxtigers: I was just over-thinking it

I think that's why we're all here!



TheSaint - Jul 13, 2006 3:05 am (#1863 of 2970)
I just started rereading, from the beginning.

Wondered if the reason Ron's spell didn't 'turn this fat rat yellow' is because his fat rat was not a rat? I know the spell was a bit odd, but the twins are pretty good at odd spells. It may have been a trick on him or the first clue that there is something up with that rat!



haymoni - Jul 13, 2006 3:13 am (#1864 of 2970)
I thought of that too, Saint.

But I think it was both - a trick on Ron AND a clue.




Esther Rose - Jul 13, 2006 5:24 am (#1865 of 2970)
Or the rat (Peter Pettigrew) was already yellow (a fearful coward).



haymoni - Jul 13, 2006 5:36 am (#1866 of 2970)
Oohh! Nice, Esther!



Die Zimtzicke - Jul 13, 2006 7:37 pm (#1867 of 2970)
Why did they need the vanishing cabinets? Draco didn't need to fix them for the Death Eaters to get into Hogwarts. Peter Pettigrew was one of the people who made the map, for heavens's sake. He knows about the one-eyed witch and about the Shrieking Shack. Either as a human or a rat, he could have led them in through the shack or through Honeyduke's. I'm sure Voldemort is powerful enough to break into the shack.



Kneazle - Jul 13, 2006 7:49 pm (#1868 of 2970)
Edited by Jul 13, 2006 8:50 pm
"Die Zimtzicke~Why did they need the vanishing cabinets? Draco didn't need to fix them for the Death Eaters to get into Hogwarts. Peter Pettigrew was one of the people who made the map, for heavens's sake. He knows about the one-eyed witch and about the Shrieking Shack. Either as a human or a rat, he could have led them in through the shack or through Honeyduke's. I'm sure Voldemort is powerful enough to break into the shack."

With all the extra security around Hogwarts and Hogsmeade it would have been near to impossible for anyone , much less a large group of DE's , to sneak in through Honeyduke's or the Shrieking Shack. Hogwarts and the village of Hogsmeade were being patroled continually by members of the order.



journeymom - Jul 13, 2006 7:52 pm (#1869 of 2970)
Besides, maybe that's something that Wormtail hasn't shared with Lord Voldemort...?



Amilia Smith - Jul 13, 2006 8:45 pm (#1870 of 2970)
Maybe this was an assignment give to Draco specifically, more for the goal of training him than for actually making a legitimate attack on Hogwarts. Since Draco didn't know about the secret passages, he had to use his own ingenuity.

Mills.



Die Zimtzicke - Jul 14, 2006 6:20 am (#1871 of 2970)
I don't think the extra secutity would have helped if the Death Eaters had decided, say, to apparate into Honeyduke's in the middle of the night. We know that the one eyed witch entrance was not well known, and that comments were made by the kids about the possiblity of Honeyduke's being broken into. Look at how many Order members apparated at once into the Dursley house. DE's could have done the same with Honeyduke's.

We don't have any specific idea of what kind of security was in Hogsmeade, only that there were no longer dementors. And we never heard anything specific about Dumbledore putting any extra security on the remote shack.



Choices - Jul 14, 2006 10:41 am (#1872 of 2970)
This is not important, but I just find it odd that in his opening/welcome speech, Dumbledore reminds the kids that the Forbidden Forest is out of bounds to all students - he specifically looks at Fred and George - yet, not once in all the books do we hear of Fred and George even getting near the Forbidden Forest, much less going into it. LOL



haymoni - Jul 14, 2006 11:38 am (#1873 of 2970)
They are so good at it, we never hear about it!



The giant squid - Jul 16, 2006 12:10 am (#1874 of 2970)
That's just because after two years he knows that Gred & Forge will try to go anywhere they're told not to, and he's letting them know he knows.

Or something.

--Mike



Madame Pomfrey - Jul 26, 2006 2:43 pm (#1875 of 2970)
I don't have the passages right now,but I thought it odd that Slughorn says "Oho!" at the beginning of HBP and then at the end Dumbledore says it(I think in the cave.) Anyway,I don't recall Dumbledore ever having said this in the previous 5 books.Odd.



Maud Merryweather - Jul 30, 2006 4:36 am (#1876 of 2970)
Here's something that at re-readings seems a bit weird. But then again, maybe I missed something. In GOF, Voldemort summoned his DEs at the graveyard near the Riddle Mansion. But how exactly did the DEs know where they were supposed to go (apparate) ? It's not like the dark mark tells you where you're expected to go, just that the DL has called for you. Had they met there before ?

What do you make of this ?



Magic Words - Jul 30, 2006 6:32 am (#1877 of 2970)
Why can't the Dark Mark tell them where to go?



Maud Merryweather - Jul 30, 2006 7:12 am (#1878 of 2970)
Well, of course it could tell them where to go, but I always imagined the Dark Mark working like the coines (jinxed by Hermione with a Protean Charm) that the DA used and those coins don't tell one where to go, they just turn red and hot(I hope I remember correctly) to summon the owner if he's needed. Hermione said she got the idea from the Dark Mark, hence my assumption that the mark doesn't tell you the meeting place. The meeting place has to be established prevoiusly.

Besides, wouldn't it be dangerous for the DEs if the mark also told the place ? It is improbable, but what if someone saw it at that precise moment (when the DE was summoned) and saw the meeting place as well. Would Voldemort risk that ? I guess it would give away too much.

I'm sorry, can't remember now, where is it explained in the books how the mark works exactly ? Or is it explained at all ? Anyone ?

Editing my post: Sorry, I was wrong about the galleons the DA used. They did show the date and time of each meeting. When Harry changed the numbers on his galleon, everyone else would be able to see them too. Just wanted to correct my mistake.



Dobby Socks - Jul 30, 2006 7:23 am (#1879 of 2970)
Maud, I suspect that the DEs can apparate directly to Voldemort. Instead of concentrating on a place, they concentrate on something like ?to the Dark Lord?s side? (which is, after all, a place, just one that constantly changes). To my knowledge, there?s no canon evidence to back this up.

It?s strange, too, because if this is the case, why can?t it be done by others? Couldn?t the Aurors find anyone they wanted to using this method? For instance, they could locate escaped ?criminal? Sirius Black, Draco and Snape, or even LV himself (not that this would be the best idea). Would it allow Harry to picture a particular Horcrux and apparate directly to it? If this can be done, it can at least be blocked by placing enchantments around a building, as Dumbledore suggests to Harry when they apparate to the meeting with Slughorn.

Odds are that I?m completely wrong. Unless there?s a special magic in the Dark Mark that allows one to do this when summoned.

Ah well. I see Magic Words has already answered. So maybe I?m at least partially right.

Madame Pomfrey, I thought that was strange, too. Just a bit unsettling. It is in ?The Cave.? Page 563, US Edition, said in response to finding the boat.



Choices - Jul 30, 2006 8:30 am (#1880 of 2970)
I always figured the Dark Mark on the arm acted a wee bit like a portkey with a destination of wherever Voldemort is.



Soul Search - Jul 30, 2006 9:35 am (#1881 of 2970)
I like Choices idea. The Dark Mark is a port key, set by Voldemort when he touches any Dark Mark.

This fits with the little we have observed.

The only difference, perhaps, is that the Death Eater might have a choice of when (Snape,) or if (Kakaroff,) to take the port key.



Dobby Socks - Jul 30, 2006 11:31 am (#1882 of 2970)
That?s the first analogy I thought of also. It?s the ?when? and ?if? that gave me a problem with this. But, as with Portkeys, perhaps you have the option of using them or not. Maybe it activates when you touch your wand to the Mark?

If it wasn?t optional, what would happen to the DEs who are in Azkaban or are recently deceased (yikes)? The one thing that JKR seems to make clear is that it has to be optional.

And now I?m picturing being two hours late for a meeting, and apparating/portkeying not to the spot where the meeting was, but to LV himself. He would not be happy if you interrupted him in the middle of strategizing while taking a bubble bath. Well, I?ve obviously been confunded and need a nap. Either that, or we haven?t been given enough information.

It also does appear to have similarities to a Protean Charm.



zelmia - Jul 30, 2006 1:15 pm (#1883 of 2970)
I don't think it does, Dobby Socks. Proteus was a mythical figure who could change his shape at will. Hermione's Proteus Charm changed the DA members' coins - changed their shape, in other words - to match that of the "master" coin, carried by Harry.
The Dark Mark does not, apparently, do this. Voldemort simply uses it to call the Death Eaters to him - though there may be other uses we haven't yet seen. Clearly the Death Eaters can refuse the summons, as is evidenced by both Snape and Karkarov in GF. And it would seem those Death Eaters who are in prison are unable to heed the summons or surely Bellatrix, at least, would have come to the graveyard.

I think when Hermione says she "got the idea" from the Dark Mark, she is simply referring to a quick and easy way to get the message out to all the DA members. The Charm goes out simultaneously to all the coins, just like the Dark Mark summons goes out to all the DE's.



Mediwitch - Jul 30, 2006 1:25 pm (#1884 of 2970)
LV in a bubble bath!



azi - Jul 30, 2006 1:32 pm (#1885 of 2970)
Hehe, I just got an image of him working out tactics using rubber ducks!



Magic Words - Jul 30, 2006 3:09 pm (#1886 of 2970)
ROFL!

Arthur Weasley would be proud!



Choices - Jul 30, 2006 4:28 pm (#1887 of 2970)
LOL They say if you have to speak in public and are afraid, just picture the audience in their underwear If you are ever afraid of Voldemort, just picture him in his bubble bath with a rubber duckie. LOL Somehow, I don't think I will ever view Voldemort the same again.



Kneazle - Jul 30, 2006 5:23 pm (#1888 of 2970)
!Kneazle! "Mmmm....Wormtail!"

Choices~ Check out my profile, you might see something interesting regarding His darkness, Lord of the Ducks.



Mediwitch - Jul 30, 2006 8:04 pm (#1889 of 2970)
Kneazle - SPEW!!!





Kneazle - Jul 30, 2006 8:13 pm (#1890 of 2970)
Edited by Jul 30, 2006 9:14 pm
!Kneazle! "Mmmm....Wormtail!"

"Uh thank yuh, Thank yuh ver-uh much!!' !Kneazle! has left the building!



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 31, 2006 2:48 am (#1891 of 2970)
Whats ver-uh odd is a kneazle-looking Elvis.



Die Zimtzicke - Aug 1, 2006 7:08 am (#1892 of 2970)
Back to the dark marks...

If the dark mark was an instant portkey, Snape and Karkarov would have HAD to go when the Death Eaters were summoned to the graveyard. Neither did. There is, therefore, some choice involved. I think the mark must call you, and you do something specific to respond to the call and appear where you are supposed to.



Madame Pomfrey - Aug 5, 2006 3:49 pm (#1893 of 2970)
I don't know if this has been mentioned before,but where is Mr.Burke? He is only mentioned in the pensieve scene.He obtained the Slytherin locket from Merope,sold it to Hepzibah Smith and disappeared.Only Mr.Borgin is mentioned in the rest of the books.Or am I missing something? Also ,do we know his initials? Could he be R.A.B.?



Choices - Aug 5, 2006 4:50 pm (#1894 of 2970)
Caractacus Burke - No R.A.B. there.



Madame Pomfrey - Aug 5, 2006 6:03 pm (#1895 of 2970)
Thanks,Choices.I knew I was missing something.We still don't know his whereabouts,do we?



Amilia Smith - Aug 5, 2006 6:15 pm (#1896 of 2970)
In my head (no canon evidence for this) I see Borgin and Burkes as something like Scrooge and Marleys, where Burke has been dead and gone for years, but Mr. Borgin has never gotten around to taking his name off of the front sign.

Mills.



Madame Pomfrey - Aug 6, 2006 5:03 am (#1897 of 2970)
I wondered about that, Mills. Maybe Voldemort killed him personally because of the bum deal he gave his mom on the locket.



Choices - Aug 6, 2006 8:43 am (#1898 of 2970)
The Lexicon has no information as to what happened to Burke - I suspect he is dead.



zelmia - Aug 6, 2006 9:52 pm (#1899 of 2970)
Mills, I had the same thought about Borgin and Burkes Borgin just never got around to taking Burke's name off the sign.

It's Caractacus Burke, but what about Borgin's first name, eh? Perhaps it is he who is the mysterious "R.A.B." And if so, who was his accomplice?



haymoni - Aug 7, 2006 5:10 am (#1900 of 2970)
Madame P - I thought the same thing - Tom Riddle killing him for cheating his mother.

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Soul Search - Aug 7, 2006 5:51 am (#1901 of 2970)
Burke's death could also have been used to turn the necklace, which was already at Borgin and Burkes, into a horcrux.



Madame Pomfrey - Aug 7, 2006 7:47 am (#1902 of 2970)
Zelmia,I like that.Maybe R.A.B is Borgin.Borgin made a comment about Malfoy having hidden dark objects.Could he have known about the diary?B&B specialize in selling/buying dark objects.I would bet they also know what horcruxes are.We also have Dumbledore's word that Voldemort wouldn't kill the person who found his horcrux right away,he'd want to question them first.This statement is why I was so sure the original green potion might have been DoLD.The trespasser would lie in state until Voldemort discovered that his cave had been trespassed.The whole cave chapter is very confusing.When R.A.B. put the fake locket in the basin did he refill it with the same potion or something different.Where is R.A.B. if he was to be kept alive for questioning?

SoulSearch,I have wondered about the necklace,also.Funny we haven't seen it since Snape had it last.



Soul Search - Aug 7, 2006 10:40 am (#1903 of 2970)
Yes, Madame Pomfrey, that is "funny." Actually, the last we see the necklace is when McGonagall tells Filch to take it to Snape.

When Harry next meets with Dumbledore, Dumbledore does mention Katie, her glove, the necklace, and Snape saving Katie. We can imply that Filch did give the necklace to Snape. The context does not, however, establish the necklace's final location.

It was not displayed in Dumbledore's office, suggesting (barely) that Snape kept it. I would think it would be something Snape would keep, perhaps in a well-labeled jar.

Given the evidence of Harry's Firebolt in PoA, we might speculate that the necklace was given to Flitwick to remove the death curse. I suggest this only because it makes it easier for Harry, should the necklace turn out to be a horcrux.



TheSaint - Aug 7, 2006 8:21 pm (#1904 of 2970)
I do like the thought of the Opal necklace as a horcrux related to the myth of them stealing 'life force'.

"More recently it has been considered unlucky to wear opal if it isn't actually your bithstone. This idea appears to trace back to Sir Walter Scott's novel "Anne of Gierstein" where the protaganist has her life force (soul?) trapped in a cursed opal.

And perhaps most bizarrely of all, opal was believed to prevent blonde hair from losing its colour!" [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Seems the Malfoy's were the perfect people for this neckless...blonde, souless..... LOL



Maud Merryweather - Aug 11, 2006 12:46 pm (#1905 of 2970)
Here?s something that definitely strikes me as odd: Dumbledore tells Harry that Voldemort does not feel when one of his Horcruxes is destroyed, as he?s too immersed in evil. Then, in the cave, Dumbledore says that the potion in the basin does not immediately kill the drinker, because Voldemort would not want to immediately kill the person who found the locket, he would want to keep them alive long enough to find how they ?managed to penetrate so far through his defences and, most importantly of all, why they were so intent upon emptying the basin? (HBP, Chapter 26), in other words to keep them alive long enough to permit Voldemort to question them.

But how will he actually be able to discover the identity of that person and to find that person in order to question them, if he doesn?t even know when his precious Horcruxes are destroyed, or stolen or in any kind of danger ? Admittedly, he?s left his fragments of soul heavily protected by clever enchantments, which are extremely difficult to break, but, surely, he must have thought of a way to be notified when one of his Horcruxes is being stolen. I believe he must have considered the possibility that someone may get past all those enchantments and may lay their hands on his Horcruxes in order to destroy them.

So, basically, I find these two statements of Dumbledore?s strange because they seem to contradict themselves. IMO the only way for Voldemort to be able to question that person is if he is somehow notified when theft is attempted upon his Horcruxes. How can Voldemort even start thinking about questioning the thief, if nothing tells him that the Horcrux is being stolen ? I don?t see a way for him to question the thief, if he has no contact whatsoever to his Horcruxes. I don?t have a clue as to how he could be, for lack of a better word, in contact with each Horcrux and- although Dumbledore thinks that Voldemort believes no one to know about his Horcruxes- it just seems foolish to me not to try and keep some connection to his hidden soul-parts after so heavily protecting them.

I really hope all of this makes sense.

What do you think ?



zelmia - Aug 11, 2006 3:41 pm (#1906 of 2970)
That may be something to do with the Inferi, apart from simply dragging the intruder down into the depths of a watery grave. Hm... VERY good question, Maud. Could it be that Voldemort would perhaps have had the foresight to have some sort of appointed guard on at least some of the horcruxes?



Choices - Aug 11, 2006 5:35 pm (#1907 of 2970)
Maud, I think that is another of those things where you are just supposed to tell yourself, "IT'S MAGIC" and not really try to understand how it works. LOL



Mediwitch - Aug 11, 2006 7:56 pm (#1908 of 2970)
It always reminded me of the way the Gringott's goblin answered Harry when Harry asked how often they check the high security vaults to see if someone got sucked in, "About every 10 years". I imagined Voldemort checking (or more likely sending a DE) on his horcruxes every so often - every 10 years or so!



Maud Merryweather - Aug 12, 2006 2:53 am (#1909 of 2970)
Mediwitch, I doubt Voldemort would send a Death Eater to check on something that important to him, because it would mean telling them the exact hiding place and how to get past all those enchantments and other very valuable (to Voldemort) pieces of information, which he would really not share with anybody. He may check on them himself and if this is the case, than I too think he does so rarely.

Choices, yes, I know, it?s ALL about magic working in mysterious ways ! However, I believe it is important for Harry to know whether Voldemort really is notified when something happens to his Horcruxes, because this means he would know that someone is after them. And that would truly make him more vicious than ever before. Coming to think of it, if Snape?s told him about Dumbledore?s injured hand (we don?t know exactly how much Snape knows or has been told on this matter), Voldemort may already suspect something?s going terribly wrong with his Horcruxes, which would make things even more difficult for Harry than they already are.

Zelmia, yes, I imagined one Inferius somehow letting Voldemort know the Hocrux was stolen (or something along those lines) as well. When writing my previous post, a far fetched idea came to my mind. I imagined the green potion in the basin acting (besides causing whatever horrible things Dumbledore experienced so as to severly weaken him) somehow as a messenger to Voldemort by creating a direct link between the drinker?s and Voldemort?s mind, so that the latter may legilimens the first. As to how on earth a potion would enable this, I really don?t know and don?t think it?s possible; I was rather obsessed with finding a way for Voldemort to be notified involving the potion so I envisioned a sort of stronger, liquid Imperius Curse which the drinker could not fight so as to apply Occlumency against Voldemort. It strikes me as rather stupid, now that I write it out... Anyway, if Voldemort is being notified about the endangering of his soul-fragment, than he must not only know about Harry and Dumbledore?s try to obtain it, but also about R.A.B?s successful attempt to steal the real locket. This is a complicated matter of serious consequences.



zelmia - Aug 12, 2006 8:20 am (#1910 of 2970)
I actually believe that Voldemort must know something about the search for his Horcruxes because of Dumbledore's hand. Snape vaguely mentions it to Narcissa and Bellatrix so he may have mentioned it to Voldemort too. If so, it is quite likely that Voldemort has been tipped off about the Horcruxes, either directly or through his own inferences upon hearing about Dumbledore.



Mediwitch - Aug 12, 2006 6:33 pm (#1911 of 2970)
I wonder if that isn't what the whole "Dumbledore is growing weaker" myth (that both Dumbledore and Snape perpetuate throughout the book) is about. Perhaps they are trying to throw Voldemort off the scent of Dumbledore's horcrux quest and make him believe that Dumbledore is simply getting old and slow, and that's how he injured himself. It would also play into Voldemort's vanity - his "competition" just can't cut it any more. He'd love that!



LooneyLuna - Aug 14, 2006 5:12 am (#1912 of 2970)
I do not think that Voldemort knows about the Horcrux hunt or that any of his horcruxes (outside of the diary) have been destroyed. If he did, he'd be making new ones and Harry's quest would be never ending.

I think that Voldemort finding out about his destroyed horcruxes (Harry throwing them at his feet, perhaps) will come as a great shock towards the end of Book 7.



Soul Search - Aug 14, 2006 9:56 am (#1913 of 2970)
I agree, LooneyLuna. Harry wil let Voldemort know that he is about to enter oblivion, which is what he fears most, and the most appropriate end for him.

I will even go bit further and suggest that Harry's bold act of defiance with the destroyed horcruxes will so disturb Voldemort that it will make Harry's destruction of Voldemort possible.



haymoni - Aug 14, 2006 10:03 am (#1914 of 2970)
No!!! Harry will not make "The Classic Villain Mistake".

Villains always tell the good guys what they are going to do to them or they explain how they were about to get away and how they fooled the good guy. While they are droning on and on, the good guy gets away.

I think Harry should blast first and talk later.



Die Zimtzicke - Aug 14, 2006 10:05 am (#1915 of 2970)
I think there has to be a limit to how many horcruxes you make before you diminish your soul so much there's basically nothing left.

Does every one split what's left of your soul in half? Voldemort probably doesn't have much left to work with now.



Soul Search - Aug 14, 2006 10:39 am (#1916 of 2970)
Die Zimtzicke,

Dumbledore mentioned that Voldemort doesn't have much soul left. I am assuming Voldemort doesn't have enough soul to "go on," hence the "oblivion" destiny.

I have also be wondering about the tempting Grindlewald reference in SS. My thoughts are that Flamel trained Dumbledore, Dumbledore had to destroy one horcrux to destroy Grindlewald, then had to hang around to train the next "hero" for the side of good. Harry, now, will defeat Voldemort, but will also have to hang around long enough to train another hero.



Kneazle - Aug 14, 2006 11:29 am (#1917 of 2970)
Has anyone thought that maybe since he knows that the book Horcrux has been destroyed that he has made a replacement for that one at least?



haymoni - Aug 14, 2006 11:52 am (#1918 of 2970)
I am guessing that it is more important to Voldy to have his soul torn in 7 pieces than it is to have 6 Horcruxes always at his disposal.

If he makes more Horcruxes, his soul is not split into the most powerful magical number.



LooneyLuna - Aug 14, 2006 1:09 pm (#1919 of 2970)
Maybe Voldemort will ask, "What's it got in its pocketsss?" and pull out the broken ring horcrux from Harry's clothes.

Haymoni, while I agree that Harry won't be giving any long speeches, I think Harry will let it be known to all present that Voldemort is fair game - nothing special keeping him tethered to this world.



Die Zimtzicke - Aug 15, 2006 8:19 am (#1920 of 2970)
I think it's a great idea for an ending, to have Harry defeat Voldemort, and train someone else he can leave behind someone to carry on for the side of good, but I'm not sure if Jo means for Harry to be in a sense, the heir of Dumbledore.

I'llhave to think about that.

But I completely agree, seven horcruxes is it. This can't go on through infinity. The last book is going to play like some kind of a bizarre scavenger hunt as it is, trying to find the ones that are left now.



painting sheila - Aug 17, 2006 10:35 pm (#1921 of 2970)
I think Voldemort is afraid to split his soul again - 7 is where he will stop.

We all know what a hard time he had regaining his body. I think he would hesitate before spitting again for fear of what it might do to him.

I guess splitting his soul had nothing to do with losing his body though - did it?



geauxtigers - Aug 18, 2006 1:56 pm (#1922 of 2970)
Sheila, I think that Voldemort is not afraid of what it might do to him, I think he is more inclined to keep it seven because 7 is the most powerfully magical number.



painting sheila - Aug 20, 2006 3:16 pm (#1923 of 2970)
Voldemort has - on occasion - showm emotion during a battle with Harry. I thought I read some where that Harry read one of the emotions as "fear". (If anyone can remember - hlep!)

I remember thinking that was important and that if Harry could tap into that fear he would know a weak spot for Voldemort.

Will Voldemort try to "keep" seven parts of his soul out there some where? If he knows one or two pieces have been destroyed will he try and replace them?



Choices - Aug 20, 2006 3:49 pm (#1924 of 2970)
Voldemort has only 6 Horcruxes. I think he originally wanted to tear his soul into seven parts - seven being the most magical number - so he made six Horcruxes and he retains the seventh part within himself. I doubt he will try to make more Horcruxes to replace the lost ones. Actually I think he only knows about one that has been destroyed - the diary Horcrux. If he made more, he would lose the magical number seven association.



Mediwitch - Aug 20, 2006 5:34 pm (#1925 of 2970)
painting sheila, I believe you are referring to the duel in GoF, when Harry and Voldemort became enclosed in the golden dome/web and Voldemort's victims came out of his wand and began circling around them.



Soul Search - Aug 21, 2006 10:32 am (#1926 of 2970)
A bit of coincidence that may not have any meaning.

In "The Unbreakable Vow" Harry and Hermione are in the library. In a discusson on smuggled love potions, Hermione mentions that Filch can't detect the love potions that the twins have disguised as perfumes.

Later, they hear someone move "... close behind them among the dark bookshelves."

Shortly after, Madame Pince appears to announce that the library is closed, notices the HBP potions book, and lunges at it. Harry and Hermione leave the library.

In "The Lightning Struck Tower" Draco is bragging to Dumbledore and says: "I got the idea of poisoning the mead from the Mudblood Granger as well, I heard her talking in the library about Filch not recognizing potions." So, Draco was in the library, and probably the "someone moving close behind them," (rather than Madam Pince as we were led to believe.)

This means Draco could also have heard about: Hermione and Ron, love potions being targeted to Harry, Harry's special "HBP" copy of the potions book and how useful it is, and that Harry is suspicious of Draco and the necklace.

Since Harry was on the Tower, he knows that Draco overheard them, but Draco doesn't know that Harry knows. Or something.

In "Sectumsempra," Snape asks Harry to bring all his books. Was that legitmency, or prior knowledge?

This just seems to be a lot of coincidence from one casual session in the library. What a web JKR weaves!



painting sheila - Aug 21, 2006 6:19 pm (#1927 of 2970)
Why couldn't Draco have been Madame Pince?

or is that what you were saying and I just misread?



geauxtigers - Aug 21, 2006 7:34 pm (#1928 of 2970)
Soul Search that does strike me as odd. I never picked up on that before. I always assumed it was Madame Pince too, but you're right, I think that was Draco there. It makes sense...I don't think its too big of a deal just sheerly because we don't know for sure. But its interesting non the less. I think Snape actually did ligitimacy because Harry says something like he knew what Snape was going to do and he never could prevent it. Then he sees the Prince's copy of Advandced Potion Making swarm into view. I can't remember and I don't have the book on hand or the time to find it, but it could've been his guilty conscience working against him...



Soul Search - Aug 22, 2006 8:04 am (#1929 of 2970)
painting sheila,

Why couldn't Draco have been Madame Pince?

I wasn't saying that Draco had polyjuiced himself into Madam Pince. Too complicated, since she would be in the library. I do find it a bit strange that both seemed to be behind Harry and Hermione and Madam Pince did not tell Draco to leave, too. He must have been hiding from her, as well.

geauxtigers,

I think Snape probably did use legitmancy. But, that library scene where Madam Pince sees and Draco hears about the potions book does cast some doubt about prior knowledge. It could be both, at that.

Mostly I was showing that the library scene, so innoculous when first read, actually had so much significance by the end of the book. It may even end up having more in Book Seven if Madam Pince recognized her potions book that she gave to her son, Snape. (I do like the "Madam Pince is Snape's Mother" theory.)

That scene demonstrates a plotting/planning ability seldom seen. JKR IS good!



Choices - Aug 22, 2006 9:18 am (#1930 of 2970)
The clue that it was not Madam Pince is that when she appeared she had a lamp in her hand. Hermione and Harry heard someone among the DARK bookshelves. Madam Pince came around the corner with a lamp (lighted) in her hand - had it been her, the bookshelves wouldn't have been DARK. Later, Draco reveals that it is was him that overheard Harry and Hermione's conversation.



Soul Search - Aug 22, 2006 1:47 pm (#1931 of 2970)
Choices, good pickup on the lamp. I read the scene a couple of times and didn't make that connection.



legolas returns - Aug 22, 2006 1:57 pm (#1932 of 2970)
Draco could have been between the rows of shelves in front rather than behind where Madam Pince was. He could still have heard from that location. I dont think he could rant in the same way about damaging books as Madam pince. She has got it down to a fine art .



painting sheila - Aug 28, 2006 10:22 am (#1933 of 2970)
In Sorcerror's Stone did any one find it strange that Vernon mumbles Mimblewimble? Was he trying to do a spell? Was he trying to say a word that he was given in order to summons help if Harry was ever in danger?



Choices - Aug 28, 2006 10:32 am (#1934 of 2970)
I seriously doubt it! I think it was his way of saying "nonsense". Vernon would not have cared that Harry might be "in danger", and after all, Hagrid was from the magical world, representing the very people who left Harry with the Dursleys.



zelmia - Aug 28, 2006 12:13 pm (#1935 of 2970)
Vernon muttered "...what sounded like mimblewimble." He may not have actually said "mimblewimble". Regardless, Vernon Dursley would be the absolutely last person to use Magic under any circumstances. For one thing, he doesn't think in those terms (hence the shotgun); and he abhors it.



TheSaint - Aug 28, 2006 3:31 pm (#1936 of 2970)
Mimblewimble (PC): in wizard duels, causes your opponent to become inarticulate and unable to cast their next spell properly. At least in the games I am told.

Another entry says it protects Harry and makes the spell return to the caster. Think the classic 'rubber/glue' incantation!

Always made me wonder if Vernon knows a bit more about the wizarding world than we do. Perhaps he is the squib! LOL



timrew - Aug 28, 2006 4:49 pm (#1937 of 2970)
"Mimblewimble!", Vernon replied to Harry, and bugger all happened.................

"Oh, nonsenseica - wimble!" said Vernon.........



painting sheila - Aug 28, 2006 5:08 pm (#1938 of 2970)
I don't know if he is a squib, but I do think he knows more than we think. Dumbledore may have given him a "spell" to use in case there was any trouble ever at their house. Vernon may have forgotten it and it sounded like "mimblewimble". He had never used it before and purposefully tried to forget it.

He tried it in this case out of fear.



Soul Search - Aug 30, 2006 5:58 am (#1939 of 2970)
Madam Marsh

In PoA, Harry first rides the Knight Bus and encounters Madam Marsh. She isn't feeling well.

"Best go wake up Madam Marsh, Stan," said Ern. "We'll be in Abergavenny in a minute."

Stan came back downstairs, followed by a faintly green witch wrapped in a traveling cloak.

"'Ere you go, Madam Marsh," said Stan happily as Ern stamped on the brake and the beds slid a foot or so toward the front of the bus. Madam Marsh clamped a handkerchief to her mouth and tottered down the steps.

Two years later in OotP Harry is again on the Knight Bus, and so is Madam Marsh. She still isn't feeling well.

"We're just gonna let Madam Marsh off first, though --" There was more retching from downstairs, followed by a horrible spattering sound. "She's not feeling 'er best."

Poor Madam Marsh. Always sick, or maybe the Knight Bus ride makes her sick. Stan is helpful, though, making sure her ride is as short as possible (and she has the least time to mess up his bus.) Madam Marsh must ride the bus a lot, to be on the bus the two times Harry is on it.

Now, I don't think this means anything, except that JRK sometimes writes with her tongue firmly planted in her cheek.



Madame Pomfrey - Aug 30, 2006 9:51 am (#1940 of 2970)
Good catch,Soul Search.It is odd that Madame Marsh is on the bus every time Harry is.Does not Harry realise it is the same witch? What does the color green signify? I would want to say that she is watching Harry but,since she always gets off the bus first,I doubt it.I guess Jo threw her in as a frequent passenger.Did Harry get on the bus around the same times?I used to take the city bus to school and would see some of the same people every morning.

I still find it odd that Dumbledore had his Voldemort memory bottled instead of already in the pensieve.Did he perhaps bottle memories he didn't want anyone(Snape)to have access to or is something else going on?



Steve Newton - Aug 30, 2006 10:12 am (#1941 of 2970)
I think that in her response to the Mark Evans situation that JKR said that Madam Marsh was nobody. I can't remember where this is on her website so I can't confirm.



Choices - Aug 30, 2006 11:55 am (#1942 of 2970)
Madame Pomfrey - "What does the color green signify?"

I have been interested in the use of the color green throughout the books for some time. Not that I've actually done a study or anything, but it seems generally that green is associated with bad things or things that can have bad outcomes. The Avada Kadavra is associated with a rush of green light, the brains floated in green liquid, Madam Marsh is green due to illness, Slytherin has green as it's color, the basilisk is a poisonous green, Rita's pen is green, the potion in the cave is green, etc. Now Floo Powder creates green flames and it isn't bad, but sometimes it does cause one to end up in the wrong place covered in soot. So, not always, but very often, green is symbolic of something bad/dangerous.



Steve Newton - Aug 30, 2006 12:16 pm (#1943 of 2970)
What does that suggest about Harry's eyes?



Choices - Aug 30, 2006 12:28 pm (#1944 of 2970)
I don't know - maybe that he has a special ability to see or recognize danger/evil? Or, that danger/evil is drawn to him? He did tell Hermione (I think it was) once that he didn't look for trouble, it just always seemed to find him.



Lilly P - Aug 30, 2006 2:26 pm (#1945 of 2970)
Maby Madame Marsh got a FWI (Flying While Intoxicated) ticket and has her broom privliges revolked and has to take the bus all the time. It's been know to happen to a few muggles I've known. (Not me of course!)



Meoshimo - Aug 30, 2006 2:51 pm (#1946 of 2970)
Green is also known as the color for jealousy. What that means concerning Harry's/Lily's eye color is up for grabs (if it means anything at all).



Madame Pomfrey - Aug 30, 2006 3:09 pm (#1947 of 2970)
Green does seem to be symbolic of danger,doesn't it? I like Harry's eyes being green meaning that he can sense danger. If the fact that Madame Marsh is green is symbolic of danger perhaps if she was a spy it would be for Voldemort.



zelmia - Aug 30, 2006 4:53 pm (#1948 of 2970)
I don't think Mme Marsh appearing "green" is anything other than the basic need for Dramamine, or similar. That is the running joke of the Knight Bus - which, by the way, I believe they captured very well in the PA film.
Also, I think Madame Marsh's reprised cameo appearance on the Knight Bus is simply because she is a regular passenger, her extreme motion sickness notwithstanding. Perhaps she is not comfortable Apparating. Perhaps Floo Powder makes her even more nauseus (remember Harry's first experience) so she has chosen the lesser of two evils, as it were.
I don't think there's any more to this character than what we have seen.

Green has indeed been something of a portent of "bad"ness, particularly the Cave Potion. I think this is simply an archetypal response that stems from the knowledge that foods that have "gone off" tend to turn green, becoming poison to the body.



Soul Search - Aug 31, 2006 6:04 am (#1949 of 2970)
In my #1938, "Madam Marsh" post I noted: "I don't think this means anything ...," but now I am starting to wonder. We have to be suspicious anytime JRK gives us two references to a character. And in two books.

Yet, Madam Marsh can't be any kind of an important character. We don't know much. She is already on the bus when Harry gets on. And, as Madame Pomfrey pointed out, she gets off before Harry does, so she isn't likely one of Dumbledore's "Harry Watchers." She wasn't in Moody's Order picture, either. Of course, she could be faking the sickness so she can get off the bus and report about Harry. No ... way too subtle.

What about geography? In the PoA reference she gets off the bus in Abergavenny. Could Abergavenny be near Godric's Hollow? Even Privet Drive?

Madam Marsh isn't mentioned in HBP, but Stan Shunpike and the Knight Bus get a bit of play. I am convinced Stan and the Knight Bus will help Harry in Book Seven, perhaps helping him get to Godric's Hollow. Madam Marsh is only seen on the Knight Bus. Could be some sort of action there.

Not much to go on, but any more ideas?



Choices - Aug 31, 2006 8:33 am (#1950 of 2970)
In reading The Dark Mark chapter in GOF last night I noted two more references to green - there was a greenish glow in the air as the masked DE's levitated the Roberts family in the air, and when Barty, Jr. fired off the Dark Mark, it was described as greenish in color. I do think green tends to be indicative that something is dangerous or evil (not in everything of course, but definitely the majority of references to green in the books indicate danger/evil of some sort).

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LooneyLuna - Aug 31, 2006 10:41 am (#1951 of 2970)
Green is also one of Slytherin House's colors.



Choices - Aug 31, 2006 1:00 pm (#1952 of 2970)
LooneyLuna, check out post #1941 - I mentioned Slytherin's colors there, as well as some other examples of green things.



Thom Matheson - Aug 31, 2006 1:13 pm (#1953 of 2970)
By the time Harry is ready to go, he could Appriate to Godric Hollow. I can't see him needing the Knight Bus. But I do wonder who the conductor is since Stan is in the clink.



Lilly P - Aug 31, 2006 3:46 pm (#1954 of 2970)
To apperate you have to have a "firm" destination in mind, since he's never been there it would be kind of tough I would think. Much safer to take the Knight Bus and avoid spliching or any other disaster. JM2KW



Thom Matheson - Aug 31, 2006 7:19 pm (#1955 of 2970)
Do you have to have been there in order to know "Godric Hollow". As in using the Flew Network. Just say where you want to go as a destination. Much like when Harry wanted Serius in OoP, Harry got through to Grimauld Place even though it was unplotable. I just thought that having the destination of Godric Hollow would get you there if you apparated.



Steve Newton - Aug 31, 2006 7:33 pm (#1956 of 2970)
The discussion of green got me thinking (no, wait its not that bad) and remembering. I checked out Round Pink Spiders running bit list. She says that green is the color of Transforming Knowledge. I think that this is supposed to be a good thing. Now the most recent that I could find was from February so there may be more current revisions.

But, Choices, your suggestion that eye color does not say anything about the owner but about what they can see is one that I like. For instance it would explain why Hagrid has black eyes. Perhaps he can see evil, he is not evil.



Choices - Sep 4, 2006 1:15 pm (#1957 of 2970)
I was reading GOF last night and found a scene that very closely mimics the scene with Snape and James where Snape uses the SectumSempra curse on James. It is the scene just before Moody turns Draco into the ferret.....

"Don't you dare insult my mother, Potter."

"Keep you fat mouth shut, then," said Harry, turning away.

BANG

Several people screamed-----Harry felt something white-hot graze the side of his face----he plunged his hand into his robes for his wand, but before he'd even touched it, he heard a second loud BANG, and a roar that echoed through the entrance hall."

With Snape and James, Snape cuts James' cheek with his spell, and in this scene Draco fires some spell that grazes Harry's cheek. It just struck me as interesting that the two occurrences seem so similar.



Soul Search - Sep 4, 2006 2:17 pm (#1958 of 2970)
Choices,

Ever since Dumbledore tells Harry that James and Snape hated each other and makes the comparison with Harry and Draco, we have been looking for, and finding comparisons. You have found a new one I haven't seen before.

But I have also had suspicions about the comparison. James-versus-Snape has turned into Harry-versus-Snape, but should change in book seven. Will Harry-versus-Draco also change?



painting sheila - Sep 4, 2006 6:40 pm (#1959 of 2970)
There was a green haze during the dueling clubs first (and only?)meeting . .

" A haze of greenish smoake was hovering over the scene." This was after Harry and Draco had a go at each other and Sanpe had to undo the Rictusempra and Tarantallegra spells.

Could green indicate powerful magic? Good or evil?



Choices - Sep 6, 2006 11:38 am (#1960 of 2970)
Something I noticed in reading GOF last night....chapter Beauxbatons and Durmstrang. Harry and Ron are talking after Moody's class where he put them under the Imperious curse to see how well they could fight it. He made the kids do different things under the curse and then removed the curse.

"Yeah, I know," said Ron, who was skipping on every alternate step. He had had much more difficulty with the curse than Harry, though Moody assured him the effects would wear off by lunch-time."

If Moody removed the curse from all the others (Neville wasn't still turning cartwheels), why did he not completely remove the curse from Ron, but just allowed it to wear off? It just struck me as strange.



zelmia - Sep 7, 2006 6:40 pm (#1961 of 2970)
Maybe Ron just couldn't stop after the Curse had been lifted. Like getting a song stuck in your head? (Shrugs...)



haymoni - Sep 8, 2006 4:27 am (#1962 of 2970)
Maybe the bell rang and he only had time to stop certain spells.

Skipping every other step would not be as bad as turning cartwheels.



Meoshimo - Sep 24, 2006 11:45 am (#1963 of 2970)
Does the timeline of time-turner events in Prizoner of Azkaban bother anyone else? There are a few things in is that don't quite add up in my head.



zelmia - Sep 24, 2006 12:37 pm (#1964 of 2970)
What do you mean, Meoshimo?



Finn BV - Sep 24, 2006 4:09 pm (#1965 of 2970)
(The entire thing can make your head hurt too, Meoshimo, so if that's it then most of us are in your boat too.)



Meoshimo - Sep 24, 2006 4:16 pm (#1966 of 2970)
I'm going through that part of the book, and I'll try to whip something up later tonight on it. I'm sure I'll go back on what I say about long posts, but then Dumbledore said that even the best of us must sometimes eat our words ;

Is there a thread devoted to the time-turner section of Prisoner of Azkaban?



haymoni - Sep 24, 2006 4:58 pm (#1967 of 2970)
There was a thread on Time Turners or Time Travel as I recall.



painting sheila - Sep 24, 2006 7:50 pm (#1968 of 2970)
I am not sure if this belongs on the Lupin thread or not. I don't have any ideas to start a discussion, but it did strike me as "odd".

In PoA Harry is talking to Professor Lupin after DADA class in The Marauder's Map chapter.

"Why did they (Dementors) have to come to the match? said Harry bitterly. "They're getting hungry," said Lupin coolly, shutting his briefcase with a snap. . .

(finishes explaining about the Dementors coolly)

"Azkaban must be terrible," Harry muttered. Lupin nodded grimly. . . .

"I don't pretend to be an expert at fighting Dementors, Harry . . quite the contrary . . ."

Okay - I just don't see his emotions going from coolly (nonchalant) to grimly that fast unless something is up. And why does he say "quite the contrary" when talking about fighting the Dementors. Has he had to fight them before? Many of them?

Maybe I am just tired - but those to descriptive words - "coolly" and "grimly" didn't seem to fit together.



Starling - Sep 25, 2006 9:58 am (#1969 of 2970)
I think with the "coolly" is meant that there is a hint of sarcasm there, a hint of "and we know who's fault that is". "That" being the whole dementor problem.

As for not being an expert at fighting dementors: with Lupin's past it must be extremely difficult to fight them.



Madame Pomfrey - Sep 27, 2006 7:13 am (#1970 of 2970)
Painting Sheila,you should really take that to the Lupin thread.Wynnleaf might find it very interesting since she has a theory on Lupin being a traitor.



zelmia - Sep 27, 2006 7:37 pm (#1971 of 2970)
May I just say, while I'm here, that if Lupin wasn't a traitor before (and Peter was) why would he suddenly become one now? There is absolutely nothing for him to gain in doing that. That doesn't make a single iota of sense to me.



painting sheila - Sep 27, 2006 8:09 pm (#1972 of 2970)
Thank you Madame Pomfrey. I think I will . . . **scraaaaaaaaatsssssss, scraaaaaaaaattttttttttttttsssssssssss** (this is the sound of me dragging my thoughts over to the other thread -

She



Madame Pomfrey - Sep 28, 2006 6:14 am (#1973 of 2970)
It doesn't make sense to me either,Zelmia.I don't want for him to be a traitor,I just can't understand why Lupin did not tell Dumbledore about Sirius being an animagus when Harry's life (we thought) was at stake.



wynnleaf - Sep 28, 2006 7:06 am (#1974 of 2970)
May I just say, while I'm here, that if Lupin wasn't a traitor before (and Peter was) why would he suddenly become one now? There is absolutely nothing for him to gain in doing that. That doesn't make a single iota of sense to me.

Depends on how you look at it. Lupin calls the werewolves his "equals." He has commented on the restrictions on werewolves. He was very unhappy with the increased restrictions placed on werewolves in OOTP. The werewolves he meets with in HBP can't get work and have to hunt to eat. What do they do the rest of the month? We're talking about people he considers equals who are living very difficult lives.

I think it was Lupin (perhaps Sirius), that said the goblins could support LV if LV offered them enough freedoms, given the restrictions continually placed on them by the MOM. The same is true for the werewolves.

Lupin covered for his friend Sirius even when he thought Sirius was a spy for LV and a murderer. Why do we assume Lupin's only friends are in the Order? Would he help friends among the werewolves?

I could see Lupin playing both sides -- not so much in an "out for himself" kind of thing, but in trying to help friends on both sides. But since Lupin has a really hard time with not wanting to reveal problems that could cause others to dislike him (remember his not telling DD so much in POA?), he could get embroiled in quite a mess trying to play both sides, and not be able to get out of it. I could see him trying to cover for himself on both sides, and betraying the Order, not from evil intent, but from the weakness of trying to support groups on both sides.

And he could have betrayed the Order before, especially if he was working with the werewolves back then, as he is in Harry's time. There must be some reason why Sirius and James were suspicious of him.

There's more on this in the Lupin thread, which is really where it belongs.



shadzar - Sep 28, 2006 7:08 am (#1975 of 2970)
Probably just so the reader's dont know to suspect anything. Already Minerva has transformed into a Cat several times, but she seemed to be the only on that does it. Had readers known before that Sirius was an animagus then it might have been easier to figure out why Harry didn't noticed Peter in the hallway when he passed him on the Map.

Completely ruins the whole revelation in the shreiking shack to both HRH and readers if we already heard about it.

Could also be a promise between the Marauders. The 3 (including Peter to my knowledge) never spoke of Lupin being a werewolf and likewise he never mentioned about them. Could be the same with all 4 having a pact, or even a Fidelius cast by Lily...

I don't think that would prove that Lupin is a traitor to the group since the first time it came out about any of them was the unmasking of Peter in the Shack. Lupin didn't kill any of them there, but he also "forgot" to take his potion. That is odd unless he was just following HRH around and didn't have time to go back and get it while trying to keep them out of trouble. (Like Snape following them maybe to get them INTO trouble.)



Meoshimo - Sep 28, 2006 11:53 am (#1976 of 2970)
I think Lupin played down his knowlege of Black's animagi status. He rationalized it in his mind as something unimportant- He couldn't possibly get into the castle by disguising himself so simply; surely Dumbledore would've set protections for something like that.

And that allowed him to be at ease with allowing this knowlege to remain secret. In his mind, Black couldn't get in as a man, let alone as a dog.



S.E. Jones - Sep 28, 2006 12:31 pm (#1977 of 2970)
He also thought Sirius would've been drained of his powers in Azkaban, as he told Harry.



Choices - Oct 13, 2006 5:23 pm (#1978 of 2970)
I thought this was more "interesting" than odd..... throughout the books, we have seen many interesting things happen on Halloween - the troll in the dungeon, Lily and James' deaths, etc. It dawned on me last night that being born on July 31, Harry was probably conceived on Halloween.



Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 13, 2006 8:20 pm (#1979 of 2970)
Choices, I would say that Harry being conceived on October 31, is a distinct possibility

For the foregoing reasons:


Neville and Harry were born on the 30 and 31 of July 1980. That would indicate that Alice and Lily became pregnant some time in the autumn of 1979.


The time frame in which Lily and Alice became pregnant can be narrowed further because, the normal gestational period for human beings is approximately 38 to 40 weeks.


Any births that occur before thirty-six (36) weeks are considered pre-term, and children born after forty-two (42) weeks are considered post-term. If we use the thirty-six and forty-two week marks as guide posts.


The forty-two week mark, implies that Lily and Alice became pregnant in the middle of October of 1979, and if the thirty six week mark is utilized, that would imply that Lily and Alice became conceived in late November of 1979.




juliebug - Oct 14, 2006 5:04 am (#1980 of 2970)
Does this mean JKR probably was too as Harry shares her b-day?



Choices - Oct 20, 2006 5:30 pm (#1981 of 2970)
This struck me as a bit odd - I was reading OotP last night and Harry and Mr. Weasley are entering the MOM on Aug. 12th for Harry's hearing. Harry enters the phone booth and Mr. Weasley squeezes in beside him - it is a tight fit. Then later, near the end of the book, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, Ginny and Luna arrive at the MOM to save Sirius and all six of them manage to squeeze into the same phone booth. Now I know they are kids and each is probably a bit smaller than Mr. Weasley, but they are teenagers, so they're not that tiny. Anyway, I thought it was funny. Harry and Mr. Weasley find it difficult to squeeze in together, but six people manage it later on. Must be an expandable phone booth.



Mediwitch - Oct 20, 2006 6:09 pm (#1982 of 2970)
It's magic!



Thom Matheson - Oct 20, 2006 7:50 pm (#1983 of 2970)
See Mediwitch, it fits anywhere. HEE HEE



The giant squid - Oct 21, 2006 1:06 am (#1984 of 2970)
That, and I can see Harry being more willing to squeeze in somewhere with his friends than with his friend's dad. You can step on your buddy's toe & it's funny; if you have to even touch his dad, it's "too close".

But yeah, unless Mr. Weasley has gained Dudley-level weight, I doubt he equals the mass of 5 teenagers...

--Mike



Choices - Oct 21, 2006 9:40 am (#1985 of 2970)
LOL Yes, the "it's magic" excuse occurred to me also. LOL



legolas returns - Oct 21, 2006 9:54 am (#1986 of 2970)
How the Giant(s) that caused the chaos in chapter 1 managed to disappear into thin air? Ministry of Magic officials arrived on the scene and they could not find any of them.



zelmia - Oct 21, 2006 11:05 am (#1987 of 2970)
Good question Legolas. I guess I assumed that the Death Eaters who brought them - which I assumed meant that they had Apparated with them - also helped them to vanish.



legolas returns - Oct 21, 2006 11:25 am (#1988 of 2970)
I did have a momentary thought but dismissed it almost immediately. Could the giant have been Grawp? When I saw how he acted at the end of the book with Hagrid I dismissed it.



Choices - Oct 21, 2006 6:21 pm (#1989 of 2970)
I really don't think Grawp is working for Voldemort.



Thom Matheson - Oct 21, 2006 6:31 pm (#1990 of 2970)
How did Dobby get into the hospital wing at Hogwarts to visit Harry in CoS?



S.E. Jones - Oct 21, 2006 7:05 pm (#1991 of 2970)
Thom --How did Dobby get into the hospital wing at Hogwarts to visit Harry in CoS?--

He probably Apparated in. That's how he left.



Thom Matheson - Oct 21, 2006 10:02 pm (#1992 of 2970)
When no one can apparate in or out of Hogwarts, does that mean that elves are exempt?



Die Zimtzicke - Oct 21, 2006 10:41 pm (#1993 of 2970)
House elves can apparate at Hogwarts according to Jo because their magic works differently,

I never liked that explanation; either you can or you can't, as far as I'm concerned, It bothered me almost as much as saying Montague apparated himself (with no training!) into a Hogwarts's toilet.



S.E. Jones - Oct 22, 2006 12:03 am (#1994 of 2970)
I don't see a problem with elven magic being different, they're different. They're not human, so why should their magic work like human magic? It's almost, to me, like saying that a human wizard should be able to find someone anywhere in the world the way a post owl does. I really like that she makes her different species, especially magical species, so distinguishable, so suited to their own purposes and habitats. House-elves need to be able to get around a house quickly, without much detection from their owners. It fits quite well, in my opinion.

Anyway, Thom, here's JKR's full answer to that question.

From her F.A.Q. section:
FAQ: You say that people cannot Apparate or Disapparate within Hogwarts and yet Dobby manages it, why is this?
JKR: House-elves are different from wizards; they have their own brand of magic, and the ability to appear and disappear within the castle is necessary to them if they are to go about their work unseen, as house-elves traditionally do.



Thom Matheson - Oct 22, 2006 7:16 am (#1995 of 2970)
Does that mean then that Dobby or any other elf for that matter could get into and out of, say, Godric's Hollow? I know that this is the "odd" thread, but the thought that Harry, or Dumbledore, could ally with house elves for assistance is intriging. Why couldn't DD have used an elf for the cave instead of Harry? Could this be the tip of a bigger picture?



Choices - Oct 22, 2006 12:29 pm (#1996 of 2970)
Dumbledore was teaching Harry "how it's done", so naturally Harry had to be there.



virginiaelizabeth - Oct 22, 2006 6:02 pm (#1997 of 2970)
Why couldn't DD have used an elf for the cave instead of Harry? Could this be the tip of a bigger picture?

I'll second Choices, Harry needed to learn 'how it's done' so that he can contiune on his Horcrux journey when DD is no longer able to help him. There is also a theory floating around, that R.A.B. is Regulus and he took Kreacher with him to the cave and fed the potion to Kreacher and such, but that's for another thread.

I'm just fine with how Jo expalined House elf magic. I also like taht there are distinctions between the creatures.



S.E. Jones - Oct 22, 2006 8:24 pm (#1998 of 2970)
Choices --Dumbledore was teaching Harry "how it's done", so naturally Harry had to be there.--

Yeah, plus, just think of the heck he'd catch from the head of S.P.E.W. if he'd used an elf.... Horcrux or no, nothin's worth that!



Choices - Oct 23, 2006 10:02 am (#1999 of 2970)
LOL Yeah, if Hermione ain't happy, nobody will be happy. LOL



Die Zimtzicke - Oct 23, 2006 11:44 am (#2000 of 2970)
Considering how SPEW got dropped in HBP, I don't think it would have mattered. Which to me was odd, considering how het up Hermione was about it.

Unless she realized she was in no postion to talk about how Dumbledore used elves, after the way she tried to use the cenaturs and almost had it backfire on her.

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Columbine Fairy - Oct 30, 2006 4:04 am (#2001 of 2970)
Hello, I'm going to jump into another thread yet again, although this conversation seems to be a few days old now. To me the answer to why Dumbledore didn't take a house elf is obvious - because Harry asked to go. "yes, I think you have earned that right," I think was Dumbledore's response. Enough said.



far from prefect - Oct 30, 2006 2:24 pm (#2002 of 2970)
Not to deflect you lovely people from your question, but here's a little thing that has always bugged me. Why do the students bring their owls in cages on the train? The owls know where Hogwarts is and would probably prefer to fly there. I suppose it's because it makes such an interesting spectacle...



virginiaelizabeth - Oct 30, 2006 3:30 pm (#2003 of 2970)
That's a good question far from perfect. But without Owls in cages, who would be there to make racket and attract the attention of muggles? What would Ron throw his dress robes over? I think they are there just to add a little to the story. A bit of comic relief, and nothing more!



zelmia - Oct 30, 2006 9:45 pm (#2004 of 2970)
Well if the poor owls had to fly all that way, it would take them days to reach the castle.



Madame Pomfrey - Oct 31, 2006 8:46 am (#2005 of 2970)
On the tower Dumbledore says "And the poisoned mead...well,naturally,Rosmerta was able to poison it for you before she sent the bottle to Slughorn,believing that it was to be my Christmas present.." This implies there was only one bottle, but Slughorn tells Harry "I've got one last bottle of this oak-matured mead..hmm..meant to give it to Dumbledore for Christmas...oh,well..." Now, this implies there was more than one. I thought this odd along with Slughorn pouring out the bottle of mead before anyone really examined it? Is this odd,or is it just me?



wynnleaf - Oct 31, 2006 9:25 am (#2006 of 2970)
"And the poisoned mead...well,naturally,Rosmerta was able to poison it for you before she sent the bottle to Slughorn,believing that it was to be my Christmas present.."

This implies there was only one bottle, but Slughorn tells Harry "I've got one last bottle of this oak-matured mead..hmm..meant to give it to Dumbledore for Christmas...oh,well..."

Madame Pomfrey, this is rather odd. Slughorn sounds like it's the last of perhaps several bottles of mead that he's had, ("one last bottle"), as though he had used up the others or perhaps had given them away. But this doesn't work with the notion that Rosmerta poisoned a specific bottle that Slughorn ordered to give to DD.



S.E. Jones - Oct 31, 2006 3:44 pm (#2007 of 2970)
She may have sent him some earlier, or he may have simply had some earlier, and then she sent him the poisoned bottle right before Christmas. Thus, he wouldn't be likely to drink the poisoned one and would be likely to send it along to Dumbledore as he already had a bottle or two opened from earlier....

As for not being examined, isn't that why Draco used Rosmerta? Because no one would suspect her of trying to poison someone?



Madame Pomfrey - Nov 1, 2006 6:19 am (#2008 of 2970)
That's what I thought too,Wynnleaf.

SE Jones, I meant that Slughorn poured out the contents of the bottle before anyone examined or analysed it.At least that is the impression I got.



S.E. Jones - Nov 1, 2006 5:05 pm (#2009 of 2970)
Ah... you meant after it nearly killed Ron.... Yeah, that is odd. Do we know for sure that no one had examined it before he poured it out? I'll have to go check the books.



shadzar - Nov 2, 2006 2:49 am (#2010 of 2970)
Not about the books themselves, but something that just struck me odd? I wonder if there is more to the reason the ficticious K was added to her name J.K. Rowling. Something more than boys not reading a book by a woman. Jo(e) is a male name after all and they could have used Jo Rowling for the books and after the first one the authors gender would not have mattered so much because people would have been hooked on the books. When we shorten to just the initials we get something very familiar to the fantasy genre, JKR; which is very close looking to JRR as in Tolkein. I wonder if the publishers were trying to make that connection.



Columbine Fairy - Nov 2, 2006 4:16 am (#2011 of 2970)
Similarly I have always wondered why publishers didn't think Americans couldn't handle the word "philosopher's".



Madame Pomfrey - Nov 2, 2006 8:19 am (#2012 of 2970)
SE Jones, from what I understand the mead was labeled as poison,but I can't see where it was actually analysed by anyone.Ron drank it and immedately got ill, Harry saved him and Slughorn poured it out. Except for Draco admitting to the poisoned mead we really don't have proof.It could have been a reaction to the chocolate cauldrons for all we know. The necklace was taken to Snape,why wasn't the mead?



haymoni - Nov 2, 2006 8:26 am (#2013 of 2970)
Perhaps as the Potions Professor, Slughorn felt he should handle it himself.

Or, probably more in line with his character, he'd hate to tarnish his reputation by having a bottle of poisoned mead earmarked for Dumbledore.



Choices - Nov 2, 2006 9:56 am (#2014 of 2970)
Shadzar - "I wonder if there is more to the reason the ficticious K was added to her name J.K. Rowling."

Her name is Joanne Kathleen Rolling - the K is hardly "ficticious".



haymoni - Nov 2, 2006 9:57 am (#2015 of 2970)
I thought her name was Joanne and she just added the K after her grandmother.



Choices - Nov 2, 2006 10:06 am (#2016 of 2970)
From the book "Conversations with J.K. Rolling" - page 13-----"One of my grandmothers was called Kathleen---my middle name. I adored her, and my saddest memory of that time is of her death. My other grandmother was obsessed with dogs, which she much preferred to humans. There was a touch of Aunt Marge in her, to tell the truth."

From that, I am thinking her real middle name is Kathleen, and it wasn't just adopted later by her.



journeymom - Nov 2, 2006 11:17 am (#2017 of 2970)
Haymoni, I remember reading the same thing. She doesn't have a middle name, but added the K for Kathleen, after her grandmother. I suppose she adopted the name officially as her middle name. That would make Choices' quote and the above both true.

=======================================================

From BBC Online Chat, March 2001

"Is J.K. Rowling your real name or is it your 'writers' name?

My real name is Joanne Rowling. My publishers wanted another initial, so I gave myself my favourite grandmother's name as a middle name 'Kathleen'.."

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]



S.E. Jones - Nov 2, 2006 2:28 pm (#2018 of 2970)
Madame Pomfrey --from what I understand the mead was labeled as poison,but I can't see where it was actually analysed by anyone.--

I'm confused by what you mean "labeled as poison"..? You mean because Ron got sick, they called it poison, instead of assuming it was a reaction from the cakes? Well, after eating the cauldron cakes he was fine but... er... potioned (I'm not sure what you call someone who's succumbed to a potion) and after taking the antidote he was fine but miserable. It seems a couple minutes pass without any problem until Slughorn gives him the mead, the minute he drinks it, he gets sick. That seems like the mead was the obvious culprit to me.



Choices - Nov 2, 2006 6:28 pm (#2019 of 2970)
Thanks for that quote Journeymon - JKR definitely did adopt the middle name later. I live and learn! :-)



Madame Pomfrey - Nov 3, 2006 9:47 am (#2020 of 2970)
You are right,SE Jones.I forgot about the antidote. Yes,I did mean "labeled" as calling it poison.



Madame Pomfrey - Nov 4, 2006 10:24 am (#2021 of 2970)
This isn't exactly odd, but I didn't know where else to put it.

Mr. Burke provided the evidence needed to prove Merope was in London.He bought the Slytherin locket from her and was still alive when Voldemort visited Hepzibah Smith. However, except for the pensieve information,we have not heard from him.

Dumbledore said "Caractacus Burke was not famed for his generosity." He was talking in past tense. I wonder if he is dead or merely missing ? I think Voldemort must have killed him after he found out from Hepzibah that he cheated his mother. If so, I wonder if his death was important enough to make a horcrux from ?

Also,where is Caradoc Dearborn(his body never found), Ollivander,Fortescue and the other missing people mentioned by the daily prophet? Were they killed,held captive,or are they now inferi? I think the deatheaters must have Ollivander, Trelawney, and Fortescue because they are of value,but what about the others?



Soul Search - Nov 6, 2006 7:46 am (#2022 of 2970)
In the opening chapter of GoF (ugly baby) Voldemort kills Frank Bryce with an AK. This is further confirmed when Frank Bryce comes out of his wand.

In HBP, "Horcruxes," Dumbledore is suggesting to Harry that Voldemort had planned to use Harry's murder to make his sixth, and last, horcrux, but that he failed. He then says:

"... After an interval of some years, however, he used Nagini to kill an old Muggle man, and it might then have occurred to him to turn her into his last horcrux."
Clearly, the "old Muggle man" was not Frank Bryce: he wasn't killed by Nagini and the GoG scene was surely more than an "interval of some years" after Godric's Hollow.

A reasonable interpretaton of "an interval of some years" would place the event when Voldemort was in vapor form, and alone. Needing to use Nagini to kill confirms that Voldemort was in vapor form; Voldemort usually preferred the AK, even in "ugly baby" form.

No mention of where he was, but he could have still been in the general vicinity of Godric's Hollow, the Riddle mansion, #4 Privet Drive, or similar; anyway, he hadn't gone to Albania yet. Voldemort's rant in the Graveyard scene suggests he spent some time testing the protections on #4 Privet Drive, so he didn't go to Albania right away.

There are a few "odd" things about this simple statement.
When did Voldemort acquire Nagini? If he had Nagini an "interval of some years" after Godric's Hollow, how did he get her to Albania later?

He could occupy/control Nagini, so could have had her do the killing, but how did he perform the horcrux-making spell? He didn't even have his wand again until Wormtail brought it to him sometime between the end of PoA and the first chapter of GoF.

Who was the "old Muggle man?" Voldemort used "significant" murders for other horcruxes. Was the old man "significant?"
I am suspicious of this simple reference. I suspect this casual statement is backstory for something we will learn in Book Seven.

I have reviewed the stories for "old Muggle men," but haven't come up with anything obvious. Just a few ideas, though:
What happened to Mr. Figg? Could he have been a Muggle? My thought here is that Mrs. and Mr. Figg were watching #4 Privet Drive. Mr. Figg got in the way somehow, and Voldemort had Nagini kill him.

In OotP, did Moody mention any old men in the Order picture?

Any other casual references to "old man" Voldemort victims?


Any thoughts?



Mrs Brisbee - Nov 6, 2006 8:11 am (#2023 of 2970)
Soul Search, good analysis about Voldemort and Nagini. I think you must be right about Vapormort possessing Nagini and using her to murder an old man, and so Voldy gets the idea to put a different form of his soul into her.

My guess is that he planned to do this after the graveyard scene, and Harry's murder there would be the significant murder used. Nagini was slithering around there, and Voldemort did make that "joke" in GoF about Nagini not getting to eat Wormtail afterall, but still getting to eat Harry Potter. It sounds more significant in light of what we know about Horcruxes now. I think that after the graveyard thing went all wrong for Voldemort, he decided he needed to get that last Horcrux finished. Alternatively, when the furious Voldemort found out about the diary, he decided he needed to make another. It still makes sense that he would want Harry's murder to be his 7th Horcrux. There is about six months between the graveyard and Harry's vision of Arthur being attacked by Nagini, so somewhere in that six months I think Voldy made her into a Horcrux. There actually might be a clue as to when in OotP if we read it closely, since Harry was so attuned to Voldemorts feelings.



Soul Search - Nov 6, 2006 8:36 am (#2024 of 2970)
Mrs Brisbee,

After the graveyard scene was my first thought, but some things just don't add up.

Dumbledore's use of "interval of some years" (after Godric's Hollow) doesn't seem like the right vague time reference to use for something as recent, for Harry, as the Graveyard scene. I would think Dumbledore would have been more specific if Voldemort had killed the old Muggle man shortly after Voldemort had acquired his new body.

Voldemort had a complete body after the graveyard scene. He had his wand. He likes to use the AK to kill. He wouldn't have needed Nagini to do his dirty work.

Voldemort seems to be quite close to Nagini in the opening chapter of GoF, and in the Graveyard scene. My thoughts are that Nagini was already Voldemort's horcrux.

Given the events of Godric's Hollow and Voldemort being in a vunerable vapor form, I would think he would want to achieve his "Seven soul bits" state as soon as possible. Would he wait fourteen years?

Still, he did have a wand after the graveyard scene, so could have performed the horcrux spell.



Mrs Brisbee - Nov 6, 2006 8:46 am (#2025 of 2970)
Soul Search,

I was agreeing with you that Voldemort got the idea to make Nagini into a Horcrux while possessing her in Vapormort form to kill an old man. But then had to wait several more years to carry out the plan--namely, to get his body back. Dumbledore never said that Voldemort used the murder of the old man to make the Horcrux, only that that is where he got the idea.

Voldemort was weak in Vapormort form, and could not hold a wand. He said himself that possession was one of the few powers he could still use. So I can't see how he could make a Horcrux while in Vapormort form.

So I'm going with he still planned to use Harry's murder for the Horcrux, and he was taking the first chance possible to make a Horcrux (first night back).



Soul Search - Nov 6, 2006 8:56 am (#2026 of 2970)
Mrs Brisbee,

"Voldemort got the idea to make Nagini into a Horcrux while possessing her in Vapormort form to kill an old man."

Good observation. Dumbledore didn't exactly say he made the horcrux then.

You may have solved the puzzle!

But, then who did Voldemort murder after the graveyard scene to make the Nagini horcrux?

Another puzzle is how did Dumbledore know about the "old Muggle man" that Nagini killed. Was there a news item about a man being killed by a Snake? Seems a stretch to link that to Voldemort.



Mrs Brisbee - Nov 6, 2006 9:17 am (#2027 of 2970)
But, then who did Voldemort murder after the graveyard scene to make the Nagini horcrux?

Got me. There is evidence that the murder needn't take place at the time the Horcrux is made, so it is possible an old murder was used, like that of Lily or James.

I do think it would all make more sense if Nagini was a Horcrux prior to Godric Hollow-- then Voldemort growing stronger on a diet of her venom makes more sense-- but since that's not what Dumbledore said, we're stuck with after Godric's Hollow.

As to how Dumbledore knew about the old man, I don't know. Perhaps it was Frank Bryce and Dumbledore was mistaken in how he died. I don't think Harry ever revealed the details of that dream, and Frank's body could have been discovered gnawed upon by a giant snake if Voldemort let her feed after he killed him. I think Dumbledore would associate Frank+ snake with Voldemort.



kingdolohov - Nov 6, 2006 9:32 am (#2028 of 2970)
It might be a bit of a stretch, but Nagini did alert Voldemort to the presence of Frank Bryce. That could be considered using to kill, in a sense.

As for how Dumbledore knew about it, I have no idea. I do remember that the Ministry didn't see the death of Frank to be a big deal, so I'm guessing he wasn't gnawed on by Nagini and left there, otherwise even Fudge would have to realize something wasn't right about that.

Did Frank disappear? I can't remember Dumbledore's exact words in GoF when he talks to Harry about Voldemort growing stronger. That would make sense, because the Ministry would actually suspect something if a man is on the floor, dead, but without any physical harm done to him. There's no way that could be anything but a magical curse.



Choices - Nov 6, 2006 11:25 am (#2029 of 2970)
I think Dumbledore read in the Muggle newspaper about the death of "an old Muggle man" in Little Hangleton. Nagini did alert Voldemort to the presence of Frank Bryce out in the hallway and I have always thought this is what was meant by him using Nagini to kill Frank.



S.E. Jones - Nov 7, 2006 1:00 am (#2030 of 2970)
I agree, Choices and kingdolohov, that Dumbledore simply phrased it badly but he was referring to Frank Bryce. The "interval of some years" does seem like a gross understatement, but I guess to someone who's over 150-years-old, a decade or two wouldn't make that big a difference.

--That would make sense, because the Ministry would actually suspect something if a man is on the floor, dead, but without any physical harm done to him.--

Actually, if the Muggle authorities found the old grounds keeper on the floor without a mark on him but dead, they'd probably assume it was a heart attack. The Riddle murders only stood out as odd because both the old couple and their son died the same way all in one night, which would even attrack Muggle attention as being odd. It might not have even got to the MoM if the Muggles just thought Frank died from a heartattack (didn't Dd say something about reading it in a Muggle paper?). Dd would've been the only one to really know the strong connection between the signs of Voldemort's return and a death at his father's old house.

I've always got the feeling that, since Voldemort was growing stronger on Nagini's venom, much in the way a newborn would grow stronger on its mother's milk, Voldemort felt a very unique (for him) kinship with the snake as she would've been the first real mother Voldemort would remember... creepy as that thought is... and that's why he decided to make her into a Horcrux.



TheSaint - Nov 7, 2006 1:14 am (#2031 of 2970)
Seems that DD was already researching the horcruxes and would have been watching for any news related to significant places or items in Voldemort's life. The article in the paper would have alerted him.



Soul Search - Nov 7, 2006 7:32 am (#2032 of 2970)
Harry knew about Frank Bryce from his GoF vision. Dumbledore knew this (Harry told Sirius, Sirius told Dumbledore.) Dumbledore made no mention to Harry of Frank Bryce or Little Haggleton.

I think Nagini killed someone else.



haymoni - Nov 7, 2006 9:10 am (#2033 of 2970)
I think Dumbledore means Frank.

Certainly, Nagini was the one who ratted Frank out and he was then killed by Voldy.

She may then have been allowed to eat him - Poor Frank!

Problem with these books is that we never know if it was really Jo's error or an editor's error.



S.E. Jones - Nov 7, 2006 4:25 pm (#2034 of 2970)
--Dumbledore knew this (Harry told Sirius, Sirius told Dumbledore.)--

When did Harry tell Sirius? You're probably right, but I don't remember this happening. I know he wrote to Sirius at the beginning of GoF but didn't mention the dream, and he didn't mention it in the cave or in any of the letters before the cave....

The only mention I can find is when Harry is telling Sirius and Dumbledore about the Priori Incantatem at the end of GoF. He's listing off the echoes that appeared from Voldemort's wand and refers to Franks simply as "An old man" and then goes on to mention Bertha Jorkins and his parents. So, best I can figure, Harry never told either Dumbledore or Sirius about the dream where he saw Frank being killed, which means that Dumbledore may or may not have figured out that the "old man" Harry saw emerge from the wand was Frank Bryce and thus wouldn't have necessarily known how exactly he died.

EDIT: In looking through GoF and thinking about the question people had raised some time ago about why Dumbledore didn't send food to Sirius, I got the feeling that Dumbledore didn't know where Sirius was until after he'd met with Harry in the cave, which is after the second task. I think Dumbledore knew Sirius was nearby, but not necessarily where he was and thus why he didn't provide food for Sirius. After Sirius met with Harry in the cave, Harry sent food every so often to Sirius, so Dumbledore still wouldn't have had to worry about it.



Madame Pomfrey - Nov 7, 2006 7:15 pm (#2035 of 2970)
I think he is referring to Frank Bryce because Harry would have seen the "old man" shadow during priori incantantem,assuming he was killed after the Potters. Frank was probably mentioned in the paper because like the Riddles he appeared healthy,only he was dead. Weren't the police baffled by the Riddles death because they could find no cause of death?



S.E. Jones - Nov 7, 2006 9:14 pm (#2036 of 2970)
Yes, I think so, but again it would look odd to Muggles to have three people of three different ages drop over for no apparent reason than to have one old man drop off without a mark on him. The former looks suspicious, but the latter would look like a heartattack (although, from Dumbledore's comment in HBP and Voldemort remarking to Nagini about eating Harry in GoF, I really have to wonder if he was found without a mark or half eaten?)....



Thom Matheson - Nov 8, 2006 7:00 am (#2037 of 2970)
Can anyone remember discussing the answer as to how the boys got over the walls of Hogwarts in that car? Dumbledore had to back off the enchantments to fly the brooms over.



haymoni - Nov 8, 2006 7:08 am (#2038 of 2970)
I thought the enchantments he removed had only recently been placed there.

I don't know that the extra protection was needed in Book 2.

I'm still not clear as to where the Whomping Willow actually is. If they flew over the forest, could they have entered the grounds and hit the tree without actually flying over any walls?



Thom Matheson - Nov 8, 2006 9:13 am (#2039 of 2970)
I believe that the forest and WW is part of the total grounds and therefore part of the enchantments. Whether or not there is a wall around the entire grounds I do not know. This question might be better placed in the "Struck you as odd" thread. SE, little help?



S.E. Jones - Nov 8, 2006 9:56 am (#2040 of 2970)
The protections Dumbledore lifted had indeed been only recently placed there at the beginning of HBP, along with the Aurors stationed in Hogsmeade. The new measures are mentioned in Chapter 3 in the article following the one reporting Scrimgeor's appointment and then mentioned again by Dumbledore later that night. So, is short, those protections didn't exist in CoS.

The wall extends along the edges of the Forbidden Forest. I copied this map from the one JKR did that was shown on one of the DVDs (I think it may have been CoS or PoA). Anyway, you can see the wall encloses the Forest, at least the part of the forest near the school. I'd imagine that, after a fashion, the forest takes over as a protection and the wall is no longer needed.



Die Zimtzicke - Nov 8, 2006 10:19 am (#2041 of 2970)
If Dumbledore indeed suggested the cave as a place for Sirius to stay, then he knew where he was and could have condsidered how he would eat. Is that quote in GoF or does it come later in OotP? I cnat' find it right now, but I am almost sure Harry and Dumbledore talked at some point about Sirius being in the cave.



S.E. Jones - Nov 8, 2006 10:45 am (#2042 of 2970)
I didn't see the quote anywhere in the scene where they actually talked to Sirius in the cave. I do remember Hagrid mentioning that Dumbledore suggested Sirius's cave to him for Grawp in HBP, though.

Can anyone find it?



Choices - Nov 8, 2006 10:45 am (#2043 of 2970)
S.E.Jones - "The protections Dumbledore lifted had indeed been only recently placed there at the beginning of HBP..."

Correct. Remember also when Charlie's friends flew in to get Norbert. Obviously no protections were in place in book one or later in book two when the car hit the Whomping Willow.



kingdolohov - Nov 8, 2006 10:46 am (#2044 of 2970)
Dumbledore tells Harry about Sirius and the cave when Harry goes and tells him his scar hurt during Divination, and Dumbledore asks if it's the first time since summer.



S.E. Jones - Nov 8, 2006 10:54 am (#2045 of 2970)
Thank you, kingdolohov.

"You are not Sirius's only correspondent," said Dumbledore. "I have also been in contact with him ever since he left Hogwarts last year. It was I who suggested the mountainside cave as the safest place for him to stay." (GoF30, p600, US)

I guess that doesn't mean that Dumbledore had to think about food. It would be consistent with both characters for Dumbledore to wait to be asked and for Sirius not to. The bigger question, to me, is how Dumbledore knew about the cave....



Thom Matheson - Nov 8, 2006 11:06 am (#2046 of 2970)
Thanks Choices, that helped a lot. I forgot about the Norbit extraction.

That being the case though, DE certainly could have come over via a squadron of brooms to invade and take the school. I am surprised that DD didn't mention that and make changes. Same with Sirius in PoA, for that matter. HMMM.



Choices - Nov 8, 2006 11:11 am (#2047 of 2970)
Well, at that time Voldemort had not returned and the extra precautions were deemed to be not needed by Dumbledore. After Voldemort regained his new body and was returning to power, I'm sure Dumbledore began to increase the protections around Hogwarts.



S.E. Jones - Nov 8, 2006 11:13 am (#2048 of 2970)
Well, if my feeble brain remembers correctly, there were extra protections, and Dementors, added in PoA for Sirius's escape, and there may have been extra measures taken in GoF after the DEs trek through the World Cup campgrounds. I can't remember about OotP. I don't think DEs wouldn't have been able to get in after PoA, but Dumbledore knew they were trying to stay under the radar in OP, so there was no real danger until HBP, and we know he added extra protections then.



Thom Matheson - Nov 8, 2006 11:16 am (#2049 of 2970)
I had this picture of the "Blue Angels" on brooms zooming in for final approuch and bombing. Sorry to digress



Madame Pomfrey - Nov 8, 2006 5:17 pm (#2050 of 2970)
Speaking of the mountainside cave,it was described as having a fissure that the trio had to squeeze through in order to get in.How did Sirius manage to get Buckbeak in? What kind of spell?

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Thom Matheson - Nov 8, 2006 6:45 pm (#2051 of 2970)
magic



Choices - Nov 9, 2006 10:26 am (#2052 of 2970)
Madame Pomfrey, I have wondered that myself about Buckbeak and the cave. Either Sirius enlarged the entrance for Buckbeak or he reduced Buckbeak. LOL Either way, it was magic. :-)




Madame Pomfrey - Nov 10, 2006 7:22 am (#2053 of 2970)
LoL.I was thinking a shrinking spell,but enlarging the fissure didn't cross my pea brain.



painting sheila - Nov 12, 2006 8:30 pm (#2054 of 2970)
HAsquid - I thought that as odd, too. I am sure we could do a search on this forum and come up with lots of theories.

I wonder if there is more to the word "Professor"? Does it have al ink some how to the peeling letters that read "professor Lupin" on Lupin's suitcase?



Thom Matheson - Nov 12, 2006 9:30 pm (#2055 of 2970)
Don't you think is odd that Harry has never once brought up the idea of visiting his parents graves? Not with the Dursley's(fat chance), not with Dumbledore, or the Weasley's. Why not?



painting sheila - Nov 13, 2006 6:48 am (#2056 of 2970)
OH! Thom!! Maybe he will in Book 7. Dumbledore's grave is at Hogwarts and Harry will visit it at some point and find peace and comfort. He will then wonder about his mom's and dad's and that is how he will end up at Godric's Hollow. Or where ever they are buried. Maybe there is a "clue" there of some sort.

I don't think it is odd that he never visited. The Dursley's are not caring people and not compassionate in the least. Harry probably doesn't know that people do that. He has to point of reference to want to - do he?

I know! I know! Move it to another thread . . . . . .



Die Zimtzicke - Nov 13, 2006 1:19 pm (#2057 of 2970)
This is from another thread, but seems to fit here as it is a bit odd...

If all Malfoy had to do was get the Death Eaters into Hogwarts, why didn't he send word that apparation was going to be allowed in the Great Hall during the apparition lessons? Then the whole group could have appeared and attacked then.



Lina - Nov 13, 2006 1:30 pm (#2058 of 2970)
It was possible only to apparate from inside that room to inside that room, not from somewhere else.

I have the feeling that it is possible to regulate the apparition that way - like when you go to visit a wizard, you can apparate only in front of his house, but the wizard can apparate inside the house from one room to the other, like the twins did in 12 GP.



Die Zimtzicke - Nov 14, 2006 10:09 am (#2059 of 2970)
But where are you while you're actually in the process of apparating? Out in space someplace? Could an extrememly powerful wizard tamper with that somehow



Lina - Nov 14, 2006 1:24 pm (#2060 of 2970)
The way I see it: in any travelling you move from the place you start to the place you end. You should be somewhere in between. Like traveling from New York to London... You could go through Tokio, but why?

I see the anti apparition charms as sort of barriers.

JM2K



deletedaccount - Nov 14, 2006 10:06 pm (#2061 of 2970)
I find it odd that Voldemort needed unicorn blood to sustain him when he had all of these horcruxes anchoring him to the Earth.



S.E. Jones - Nov 14, 2006 10:16 pm (#2062 of 2970)
Well, the Horcruxes kept him anchored but his power was deplenished. He says the unicorn blood strengthened him, so maybe he simply needed it to be able to do more than just be a disembodied spirit. It may have also helped Quirrell since Voldemort said in GoF that most creatures died shortly after he possessed them.



LooneyLuna - Nov 19, 2006 4:53 pm (#2063 of 2970)
Regarding Apparition, I view it as how they traveled in "A Wrinkle in Time" via the Tesseract. The shortest distance between two points is to bring the two points together. To me, that explains the feeling of being squeezed.



painting sheila - Nov 28, 2006 8:08 pm (#2064 of 2970)
in GoF after Harry has fallen into the Pensieve for the first time and Dumbledore has pulled him out - Bertha Jorkins shows up saying something about teasing some one for kissing Florence.

Why give us that information? Who hexed her? Who is Florence?



journeymom - Nov 28, 2006 10:04 pm (#2065 of 2970)
From the Lexicon:

"Florence: Probably a student at Hogwarts, a contemporary of Bertha Jorkins, who spied on her and saw her being kissed by some unidentified boy. Upon being hexed as a result, Bertha complained to Dumbledore, the Headmaster:

"He put a hex on me, Professor Dumbledore, and I was only teasing him, sir, I only said I'd seen him kissing Florence behind the greenhouses last Thursday..." (GF30)"

Bertha was two years ahead of the Marauders, and a friend of theirs. So presumably Florence was two years ahead of James and Co, also. I suspect the boy who kissed her was Snape. Hmm, an older woman... But we may never know!



painting sheila - Nov 29, 2006 7:13 am (#2066 of 2970)
I thought it was Sanpe, too!! We don't know who hexedher or what hex she was hexed with - so why put it in there!



journeymom - Nov 29, 2006 9:34 am (#2067 of 2970)
Yes, indeed, why put that scene in there at all? It doesn't particularly add to the description of the HP Universe (like when JKR takes a moment to describe the Yule Ball) and as far as we know it doesn't move the plot along. Thought I suppose it is an example of Bertha's nosiness, that later got her in hot water with LV.



TomProffitt - Nov 29, 2006 10:24 am (#2068 of 2970)
"Though I suppose it is an example of Bertha's nosiness, that later got her in hot water with LV." --- journeymom

Rowling has to establish the personality of the character in such a way that we can have both the truth and still have Ludo Bagman as a suspect. Much of the problem with the disappearance of Bertha is keeping her in character while giving Crouch, Sr a reason to meddle with her memories and Riddle a way to find them.

I think the nosiness of Bertha has more to do with establishing the trouble with Crouch than Riddle.



journeymom - Nov 29, 2006 2:42 pm (#2069 of 2970)
Oh, come on, Tom, it's proof that Snape kissed Florence!



TomProffitt - Nov 29, 2006 3:43 pm (#2070 of 2970)
Sorry, I can't imagine Severus snogging anyone. And as a Bullheaded Empiricist I require significantly more evidence. Based on what we know of our characters Florence was much more likely to have been kissing Sirius.



Laura W - Dec 1, 2006 4:22 pm (#2071 of 2970)
"Sorry, I can't imagine Severus snogging anyone."

Except for Gina, of course. (hee, hee)

Laura



Choices - Dec 1, 2006 7:33 pm (#2072 of 2970)
Obviously a lot of people can imagine it......just read some fan fiction. LOL



Deener - Dec 1, 2006 9:10 pm (#2073 of 2970)
Okay, mine is just a little thing, but ut still bothered me a little...

In SS, Ch12, there is a big snow. "The few owls that managed to battle their way through the stormy sky to deliver mail had to be nursed back to health by Hagrid before they could fly off again."

Why does Hagrid do this? Seems to me like it would be more of a job for... oh, I don't know... the Care of Magical Creatures teacher?

I know he (at this time it was Professor Kettleburn) hasn't been introduced yet, so maybe JKR didn't want to bother. I also know that Hagrid has a way with animals... I don't know... I just thought it was odd.

Maybe Kettleburn was in St. Mungo's after having lost a finger to an advance copy of The Monster Book of Monsters...

I know, I'm reading way too much in to this... but there you go.



Thom Matheson - Dec 1, 2006 9:33 pm (#2074 of 2970)
Maybe he was great with kids but lousy with animals. snort



zelmia - Dec 2, 2006 11:06 am (#2075 of 2970)
Just because someone teaches Care of Magical Creatures doesn't mean that he or she is all that adept at actually dealing with them in practice - which seems to have been the case with Prof. Kettleburn who retired "to spend time with his remaining limbs".
I actually never found it odd at all that Hagrid would have been given the job of nursing owls. He would be my first choice for such a matter.



Choices - Dec 2, 2006 5:24 pm (#2076 of 2970)
Yes, Harry took Hedwig to Professor Grubbly-Plank when she was injured in OotP because Hagrid was not at Hogwarts. Hagrid would also be my first choice to heal an injured creature.



deletedaccount - Dec 3, 2006 12:37 pm (#2077 of 2970)
Moaning Myrtle noticed the big yellow eyes before she died, yet Ginny has been opening the Chamber of Secrets under the influence of Voldemort and Moaning Myrtle does not notice anything odd the whole time other than someone throwing a book at her. I find that odd.



zelmia - Dec 3, 2006 3:28 pm (#2078 of 2970)
My guess is that if she was hanging out in her usual stall, she probably didn't notice anything odd. In her Death story, what caught her attention was that "it was a boy speaking"; and by the time she opened the door to the stall, the "yellow eyes" were all she saw before she died.
A girl coming in and out - even one who spoke an odd language - probably wouldn't have caught Myrtle's attention.



Honour - Dec 4, 2006 1:39 am (#2079 of 2970)
I always found it 'odd' that Dobbie would come and warn Harry about what was about to happen at Hogwarts? Where is Dobbie's loyalty coming from? I thought, by all the descriptions given about House Elves and their masters, why would, and even how could Dobbie break such a fundamental rule?

I wonder if Dobbie always belonged to the Malfoy family or, could he be a freed house elf from another family? and the Malfoys employed him? This seems to be the only explanation I can think of that would allow Dobbie to break the rules, look how hard Kreacher fights against being 'owned' by another master i.e. Sirius and then Harry?



Laura W - Dec 4, 2006 4:45 am (#2080 of 2970)
Yeah, and how could Dobby, from the Malfoy's mansion, manage to intercept mail sent to Harry from Ron and Hermoine?

And didn't Kreacher need Sirius to say "Get out of here!" (ie - give him a direct order to leave - although Kreacher was able to take the order in a different way from how Sirius meant it) before he could physically leave the premises of 12 GP? How could Dobby physically leave the Malfoy's residence without express permission from Lucius or Narcissa?

Hmm, obviously there are some gaps in my house-elf knowledge.

Laura



Deener - Dec 4, 2006 6:54 am (#2081 of 2970)
Okay, I think I might have someting this time...

In CoS, ch. 8, Harry gets in trouble with Filch for tracking mud in the school after Quidditch practice. He gets distracted by someting Peeves does and leaves Harry in his office to go try to catch him. As he is coming back, we hear him say:

"That vanishing cabinet was extremely valuable!"

Okay, I'm confused now. Is this the same vanishing cabinet we have heard about in OotP and HBP? Because if so, isn't it broken? How was it of any use to Filch?



Steve Newton - Dec 4, 2006 7:51 am (#2082 of 2970)
It seems to be the same cabinet. I had thought that Peeves broke it by knocking it over. Or course, if it had been broken then perhaps he had been using it as a regular cabinet.



juliebug - Dec 4, 2006 8:38 am (#2083 of 2970)
When Flich made that statement, I thought he meant that the cabinet was an expensive and/or very old piece of furniture. If the cabinet had been broken for a long time, that's what Flich might have believed to be true.



Choices - Dec 4, 2006 10:49 am (#2084 of 2970)
I don't think Filch uses the cabinet, he simply takes care of it like he does everything else in the castle. The cabinet was valuable and Filch figures Peeves will be in big trouble for breaking it and maybe will get banished from Hogwarts. Filch would love to see Peeves gone as Peeves creates a lot of clean-up work for Filch with his antics....water balloons, smashing things, etc.

In OotP, the twins shove Montague into the Vanishing Cabinet, so we know it works somewhat, but perhaps not properly. Montague was gone for awhile and we don't know exactly where he was or how he actually got back (other than he apparated into a Hogwarts bathroom). In HBP Draco is having to repair the cabinet to allow the DE's to travel from Borgin and Burkes to Hogwarts.



journeymom - Dec 4, 2006 11:51 am (#2085 of 2970)
Honour and Laura W, my impression is that the fact that both Dobby and Kreacher were able to defy their masters to varying degrees indicates that the house elf loyalty rule is not unbreakable, and that this foreshadows the role house elves will play in Book 7. Maybe house elves will discover they are bound only because they think they are. Both Dobby and Kreacher have demonstrated free will, the ability to make good and bad choices, which is what this story is all about. Dumbledore told Harry that house elves have their own limited innate magic, different from wizard magic. They don't require wands, for one.

Maybe Kreacher required Sirius' "permission" to leave, maybe he didn't really need it. But he certainly took advantage of the legal loop hole Sirius created. And Sirius never said, 'Get out of the house and go to Bellatrix", but that's how Kreacher chose to proceed.

Where was Dobby's loyalty to Harry coming from? During LV's reign house elves were treated very poorly. When Harry vanquished LV the first time house elves everywhere took heart. Like Harry is loyal to Dumbledore, Dobby is loyal to Harry.

And this line of thought points out to me another thing Harry and Dobby have in common. They both managed to be decent people in spite of their home life. Dobby is treated miserably by the Malfoys, Harry is treated miserably by the Dursleys. Makes me wonder if we can compare Kreacher to any human?

And if house elves are bound only because they think they are, that's another thing they have in common with Harry's story. Dumbledore reveals that Harry isn't bound to the Prophecy, he can choose to ignore it.



Laura W - Dec 4, 2006 4:40 pm (#2086 of 2970)
"And this line of thought points out to me another thing Harry and Dobby have in common. They both managed to be decent people in spite of their home life."


Plus, they both have this "saving people" thing. Look to what lengths Dobby went to save Harry; defying the Malfoys (twice, actually - once when he initially left the mansion to go and warn Harry, and once when he betrayed Lucius by signalling to Harry that Malfoy had put the diary in Ginny's cauldron) despite the fact that he had to punish himself for doing so. He also nearly got Harry killed (twice, again - once by the Whomping Willow and once from a 50-foot fall during a Quidditch match) in trying to "save" him. Harry, too, does not exactly think clearly when his "saving people" sense kicks in.

Some interesting thoughts, journeymom.

Laura



Honour - Dec 4, 2006 5:07 pm (#2087 of 2970)
True journeymon all your points are very valid. I was just sort of struck by the inconsistancies.

Although why Harry's vanquishing Voldermort would affect Dobbie so, considering House Elves have been enslaved for a very very long time prior to this, and if they were so heartened by Voldermorts er disappearance, why haven't there been a whole swag of house elves running rampant in the magical world? Yes there are quite a number (150 odd) at Hogwarts, but they are still in servitude in both mind and spirit.

It seems that house elves are born into their servitude like Kreacher was, there is also evidence that they spend their life time with their families, often outliving their owners.

Even when she was treated abysmally, Winky still was loyal to her family, so much so that she became depressed and a drunk?

No, I think there is something more to Dobbie and Harry's story.

But nice comparisons none the less Smile



Choices - Dec 4, 2006 6:37 pm (#2088 of 2970)
Yes, I agree. Dobby does seem to be a rather extraordinary house elf.



Thom Matheson - Dec 4, 2006 9:35 pm (#2089 of 2970)
You don't think that Dobby some how started with James and Lily do you? Did I really write that?



zelmia - Dec 4, 2006 11:08 pm (#2090 of 2970)
Thom, I would say no to that. Apart from anything else, Dobby would have said so when he first came to Harry.

Although why Harry's vanquishing Voldermort would affect Dobbie so, considering House Elves have been enslaved for a very very long time prior to this, and if they were so heartened by Voldermorts er disappearance, why haven't there been a whole swag of house elves running rampant in the magical world?

Dobby is definitely the exception. But he went to Harry in CS because he had overheard some sort of a 'plot' that would directly affect Harry, his personal hero. Dobby saw an opportunity to protect Harry from harm (he believed he was doing so, at least) and sprang to action.
While there may be others like Dobby, who have been inspired by a small baby's apparent power to overcome supreme oppression, and who may rise up in Book 7, it is more likely that the status quo will prevail - at least for the rest of the House Elf population.



Honour - Dec 5, 2006 12:31 pm (#2091 of 2970)
Actually Thom, I thought very similarly along those lines, that if Dobby did not belong to James and Lily, then maybe someone in the Potter line, and this may have been why his loyalty to Harry out-ranked his current loyalty to the Malfoy family.

If there is no back story between Dobbie and Harry, then to me, Dobby's interaction with Harry from the beginning doesn't make sense. And Dobby being inspired by Harry's plight sounds a bit weak as well, considering what is generally described as the house elf's lot.

Now if Dobbie was originally the Potter family house elf, was present on that fateful night at Godrics hollow ... Lucius may have also been there to escort Voldermort ... hmnn starting to get into the bounds of fan fiction. Can't wait for book 7!!!

Speaking of book 7, I think Zelmia that maybe the house elves and all the other beings whom Harry has helped along the way will rise up and assist him, it's almost as if JKR is lining up her armies, like I said earlier, can't wait for Book 7!!!



rambkowalczyk - Dec 5, 2006 2:10 pm (#2092 of 2970)
THis may be a mute point(especially if the conversation about Dobby ceases), but there is a house elf thread that discussions about Dobby could be continued. It's under the magical creatures and plants in the group section folder. Once someone post in it a moderater can be asked bring the file up.



Thom Matheson - Dec 5, 2006 6:13 pm (#2093 of 2970)
At this point it is just an oddity for me



Honour - Dec 6, 2006 2:08 am (#2094 of 2970)
Sorry about that guys, got a bit carried away ... twas just a thought ... or ... two ... Smile



painting sheila - Dec 6, 2006 7:17 pm (#2095 of 2970)
I can't remember how this ends up - so it is odd to me right now . .. Who old Filch about Harry sending off for more dungbombs in OoP when he was really sending a letter to Sirius?



Anna L. Black - Dec 7, 2006 12:50 am (#2096 of 2970)
Umbridge, wasn't it? She wanted an excuse to read his mail.



painting sheila - Dec 7, 2006 4:57 am (#2097 of 2970)
OH! Thanks!



zelmia - Dec 7, 2006 7:52 am (#2098 of 2970)
I have to say that I didn't really think Umbridge was anything other than a petty little bureaucrat - a great bloody nuisance, granted, but no one truly dangerous - until Hedwig turned up cruelly injured. Nothing says "wicked" like deliberately harming animals.



Soul Search - Dec 7, 2006 12:45 pm (#2099 of 2970)
zelmia,

"... I didn't really think Umbridge was anything other than a petty little bureaucrat ..."

She may have appeared that way on a first read, but after she reveals that she sent the dementors after Harry, she takes on a totally different aspect on a second read.

When she reveals that it was she that sent the dementors, she also says that it was she alone. She was trying to be a ministry hero by solving their Harry Potter problem.

Her "nuisance" acts become "wicked" on the second, more knowing, read.



azi - Dec 7, 2006 12:52 pm (#2100 of 2970)
I wouldn't call making someone cut their hands during detention in any way a 'nusiance'. Much worse than that.

However, I agree that she didn't seem as sinister in the beginning than at the end. I think, in a way, she got gradually worse throughout the book, fuelled on power.

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wingardio leviosa - Dec 7, 2006 1:56 pm (#2101 of 2970)
hm, Umbridge -

and she kept her post at the Ministry, after the Dementors and the Crucio she was willing to use...

By the way, rereading PS/SS, when DD meets Minerva in Privet Drive -

he does not tell her the whole story, why he has chosen the Dursleys. In the conversation in HBP at the Dursleys', with Harry and DD, it is apparent that DD chose the Durleys because of the sacrifice of Lily. He does not tell Minerva anything about that, in PS/SS at least. He even makes up some story about shielding Harry from publicity, says he does not know what happened. Need to know...???

I took it a bit as odd.



Choices - Dec 7, 2006 6:19 pm (#2102 of 2970)
However, Dumbledore does tell McGonagall that the Durselys are "the only family he's got", so perhaps that is reason enough for her.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 7, 2006 7:28 pm (#2103 of 2970)
She must have known something as to why he was going to leave Harry there. She hung out at Privet Drive all day while the whole Wizarding world was celebrating. LPO



painting sheila - Dec 7, 2006 8:54 pm (#2104 of 2970)
In OoP, when the kids are in the Hogshead the bartender looks familiar to Harry. And the place smells like goats. Is the bartender Dumbledore's brother?



The giant squid - Dec 8, 2006 12:32 am (#2105 of 2970)
Sheila, it's been pretty much decided that the barman at the Hog's Head is indeed Aberforth. JKR hasn't said so specifically, but when asked she replied "good guess" or something to that effect.



Laura W - Dec 8, 2006 3:08 am (#2106 of 2970)
To put my two knuts in, from the first time I read OoP, I thought Umbridge was truly EVIL. Even long before we learned about her sending the Dementors after Harry.

To be frank, one of the reasons I dread it every time I reread Book Five is because I once again have to relive all that Umbridge did to Harry (ie - repeatedly torturing him by having him cut up his hand, taking his beloved Quidditch away from him, consistently and publicly calling him a liar when he knows he is telling the truth about LV, having his mentor and protector (DD) removed from the school, cutting off all contact between Harry and the closest thing he has to a caring "relative" (Sirius) when Harry so needs to talk to this man, almost Crucio'ing a 16-year-old boy, etc.).

For me, even the first time I read OoP, I was horrified and shocked at Jo for creating such a foul, sadistic, creature. And I will never forgive Dolores for instituting that legislation which prevents kind, talented werewolves - mentioning no names (grin) - from gainful employment and acceptance in the general society. Not to mention how she speaks of magical creatures who are not "pure" (imagine me spitting, here) wizard. Her, superior to good, loyal Hagrid? Ha! *She* is not fit to live on the same planet as him!

Funny, my first - silly - thought while reading OoP for the first time was, "Rowling must have invented Umbridge to make Snape look good."



wingardio leviosa - Dec 8, 2006 3:26 am (#2107 of 2970)
Laura,

there is also the famous sentence by Sirius, beginning of OoP:

"the world is not divided between DE and good people".

Umbridge is not a DE, but she is the tallest example of evil-not-DE that JKR gave us.

Again, the polytical side is giving me most sour feelings. She deserved Azkaban, much more than that odd Gaunt. She was not even fired by the ministry!



Laura W - Dec 8, 2006 3:49 am (#2108 of 2970)
Much appreciate the support for my position, wingardio.

"She was not even fired by the ministry!"

Hmm, maybe that in itself is an oddity in the series. When Dumbledore and Fudge meet in the atrium of the MOM after the battle, Fudge is forced to admit that LV *has* come back; something he and his whole ministry (especially his Senior Undersecretary) have been denying for exactly a year. Dumbledore now holds all the chocolate frog cards, as it were. And what terms does he lay down for Fudge? Removing Dolores Umbridge from Hogwarts, allowing Hagrid to return to work, his own reinstatement as Headmaster and apparently - judging by what was written in the Daily Prophet - a public acknowledgment of the return of Voldemort.

I find it very hard to believe that Dumbledore did not know all the things Dolores had been up to. He knew about her getting him sacked over the DA, about her getting Trelawney fired, about her sending the Aurors to arrest Hagrid (and seriously injure Minerva), about all the draconian educational decrees, about her racist views, about her asking Snape to give her Veritaserum to administer to Harry (I'm thinking Snape let him know somehow). And what he said at Harry's trial indicates he *might* even have guessed about her sending the Dementors.

So, when he was setting down that ultimatum to Fudge, to me he would also use his leverage to get Umbridge fired from her job at the Ministry. But he didn't.

Odd, or what?

Laura



Thom Matheson - Dec 8, 2006 9:00 am (#2109 of 2970)
On point Laura, but we only know that she is at the Ministry. Do we know what capacity she is working under? Also that last 2 weeks or so of Fudge's career, was he really focused on Delores. With Rufus now at the helm, it may be that it has just been overlooked. Like you, I think that she is evil, and I am certain that she will get her comuppence in the end.



Laura W - Dec 8, 2006 5:54 pm (#2110 of 2970)
It's just that, in that part of OoP where Dumbledore is laying down his terms to Fudge, clearly and directly and in no uncertain terms, - at the very end of Chapter 36, I would have liked him to say, "And you will remove Dolores Umbridge from the Ministry of Magic." He didn't. I am not finding it odd that Fudge did not do so on his own volition, Thom. But that DD did not ask for (demand) it. And if he had asked for it, we would know because we heard that whole conversation between the two men in the atrium. But then, *I* am not as good a person as Albus Dumbledore; nowhere near so.

And yes, it is possible that she is now in a more junior position in the Ministry. I assume Rufus would want to appoint his own Senior Undersecretary (Percy?? - gasp ).

Laura



Thom Matheson - Dec 8, 2006 7:05 pm (#2111 of 2970)
That was my thought Laura. She disappears off the grid until the funeral and all we know is that she was there. Broad assumption I know, but her real offense, other then being just evil, was the order of the dementors and the open thought of the Crucio on Harry in front of witnesses. We don't know if Hermione or Harry disclosed their findings to Dumbledore to even ask to have her dismissed. If they just passed on it in the moment after the MoM raid We can't even be certain that the Ministry has a clue about it.



Quidditch Mom - Dec 8, 2006 7:29 pm (#2112 of 2970)
As a supervisor at a state university, I can tell you it is nearly impossible to fire an employee in the government's civil service system, no matter how terrible they are...maybe the Ministry has the same union? Smile



Thom Matheson - Dec 8, 2006 10:06 pm (#2113 of 2970)
Quidditch Mom and Mods,

I know I am way off topic here, but do college presidents, and sports coaches have to take civil service exams? Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.....



The giant squid - Dec 9, 2006 2:11 am (#2114 of 2970)
Thom, I see it as Dumbledore retaking control of his school. If he were to demand that Fudge make changes in the Ministry he would be overstepping his bounds, especially since he has specifically avoided being in charge of the MoM. When he "asked" for her removal from Hogwarts it was a case of "do what you want with her, but get her the h*** out of my school."

In my interpretation, anyway...

--Mike



Thom Matheson - Dec 9, 2006 7:27 am (#2115 of 2970)
That way my thought as well. Not written as clearly as you did, but essentially, the same. Well stated.



Laura W - Dec 9, 2006 9:17 am (#2116 of 2970)
Quidditch Mom - remember, Fudge lost his job. As he told the Muggle prime minister in the middle of July, "I was sacked three days ago! The whole wizarding community has been screaming for my resignation for a fortnight." So obviously Ministry employees can be sacked. (grin)

Ok, squid, maybe he wouldn't have directly asked for her removal in so many words. But I definitely think he could have arranged for it to occur (ie - by leaking a story to the Daily Prophet, having his Order members who work for the Ministry make a the right comments to the right people about Dolores' lack of competency, etc.). After all, he is Dumbledore. And I seriously do not believe DD feels that using his influence in any aspect of the WW would be overstepping his bounds! DD knows how great and powerful he is and has used the MOM to his advantage more than once already (eg - keeping the Aurors away from Sirius by having Shacklebolt convince everyone he is in Tibet).

Also, Thom, whereas I think we agree to a large extent on this issue, I do not believe DD did not know most of what Umbridge did while at Hogwarts. I am sure the other teachers reported the details to him from the time he reappeared in his office that morning in June. Even Snape hated her.

I just wonder if Jo kept Umbridge in the MOM because she (Umbridge) will play a role in Book Seven and needs to be in the Ministry to do whatever it is she is going to do. Which would then make it *not* odd that DD - and Jo - did not have her removed.



Thom Matheson - Dec 9, 2006 11:56 am (#2117 of 2970)
Oh Laura I agree with you. I was only talking about the scene with the kids in Umbridge's office. The admission of the Dementors and the threat of the Crucio. If the kids didn't talk, Dumbledore would not necessarily know. Not that they wouldn't have, just that there wasn't enough time. They went from the office, to the forest, to the thestrals, to the MoM, and then Harry portkeyed back to Hogwarts, and the rest to the hospital wing. By then Dumbledore had talked with Fudge and removed Delores



wingardio leviosa - Dec 10, 2006 1:43 am (#2118 of 2970)
In accio-quote there are two qutes of JKR on Umbridge. The first shows that JKR left her intentionally around in order of having some fun with her later. The second explains the character role, as the power-hugger. This explains JKR's side and Umbridge's side, not yet the Ministry's side. Failure to take at least administrative action against her - IMO - can only be explained by failure by Harry & co to report her crimes, as you all said.

1) TLC + MuggleNet interview JKR: Part Two," The Leaky Cauldron, 16 July 2005

ES: When I signed onto IM [instant messenger] after the book came out, there were at least four or five people whose away messages were, "Give her hell from us, Peeves." Everybody loved that line.

JKR: [Laughter] [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Well, Umbridge, she?s a pretty evil character.

MA: She's still out and about in the world?

JKR: She's still at the Ministry.

MA: Are we going to see more of her? [Jo nods.] You say that with an evil nod.

JKR: Yeah, it's too much fun to torture her not to have another little bit more before I finish.

2) Edinburgh "cub reporter" press conference, ITV, 16 July 2005

Owen Jones for ITV - What has happened to Umbridge?

JK Rowling: Well obviously we would all like to hear that she met a horrible accident but she is in fact alive and well and working at the Ministry.

Why doesn't she get arrested for trying to use an Unforgivable Curse?

JK Rowling: She has good contacts at the Ministry. She is one of those people, and they do exist in real life, who will always side with the established order. As far as she is concerned authority cannot be wrong so she doesn't question it, and I would go as far as to say that whatever happened and whoever took over at the Ministry, Umbridge would be there, she likes power. So she is going to side with the people who give her the authority.



S.E. Jones - Dec 10, 2006 3:07 am (#2119 of 2970)
Laura W --So, when he was setting down that ultimatum to Fudge, to me he would also use his leverage to get Umbridge fired from her job at the Ministry. But he didn't. Odd, or what?--

Here's my take on the situation: If Dumbledore had gotten her fired (it would have been easy as Fudge could've used her as a partial scapegoat), he would've added another enemy to his list, another enemy who would be actively working against him in particular, as Voldemort is, because she would want revenge for having the power she craves taken away. However, by leaving her fate to the MoM, she is busy being focused on kissing up to a new Minister and getting her power back. I'm thinking Dumbledore figured he'd take her on when he had more time, but he had other things on his mind throughout OP and HBP that needed to take precedence and he didn't want the added pain of having to go around Umbridge too. Also, by Jo having Dd simply push Umbridge out of the way, she set up another hurtle for Harry in Book 7, which should make things even more interesting.... Just my two knuts anyway.



Soul Search - Dec 10, 2006 4:46 pm (#2120 of 2970)
I like your "take" on the Umbridge situation.

There is, however, a downside to leaving her in a position of influence/power: she blames HARRY for her downfall.



S.E. Jones - Dec 10, 2006 6:49 pm (#2121 of 2970)
Soul Search --There is, however, a downside to leaving her in a position of influence/power: she blames HARRY for her downfall.--

But, has she really had a downfall? If she's back in the Ministry in the position she had prior to going to Hogwarts, she hasn't actually experienced any downfall; therefore, she's not going to be actively trying to get revenge on either Dumbledore or Harry, which is why I think Dumbledore didn't demand that she be sacked. She may be contented, for the moment, and thus out of his and Harry's hair (well, out of Harry's hair anyway... ).



Deener - Dec 11, 2006 10:18 am (#2122 of 2970)
I have a teeny tiny thing that just irked me a little. In PoA, ch. 6, they have their first Divination lesson. Neville breaks two tea cups, and they are swept up and thrown away. Why didn't anybody (especially Hermione) think to use reparo ?



zelmia - Dec 11, 2006 6:22 pm (#2123 of 2970)
I don't think they knew that spell back then, Deener. One thing I like about the progression of the books - which they also do well to emphasize in the films - is that Harry et al are familiar with increasingly complex spells as they get older.
For example, in the first book, as they are walking in the dark forest with Hagrid, they don't think to use the "Lumos" spell. But that's apparently because they don't know it until Book 2, which I believe is the first time we hear it.
I don't think they know the Reparo spell until book 5, when Seamus fixes the broken drapes around his four-poster.



TomProffitt - Dec 11, 2006 6:41 pm (#2124 of 2970)
zelmia, doesn't Hermione use reparo on the train before they ever get to Hogwarts for the first time?(to fix Harry's glasses, she was showing off after the failed attempt at turning Pettigrew yellow) I know she does in the movie, but I don't recall from the book.



Choices - Dec 11, 2006 7:30 pm (#2125 of 2970)
I think it is Mr. Weasley who does the "reparo" spell on Harry's glasses, but it's in book 2 if I'm not mistaken. Hermione doing "reparo" on the train is not in the book. In book 2, Harry and the Weasleys travel by Floo Powder to Diagon Alley, Harry goes one grate too far and when he is ejected from the fireplace, he breaks his glasses. Later when he meets up with the Weasleys again, Mr. Weasley repairs Harry's glasses for him.



TomProffitt - Dec 12, 2006 4:30 am (#2126 of 2970)
Choices, you are quite correct, I suppose I should have checked earlier.



TheSaint - Dec 13, 2006 4:50 am (#2127 of 2970)
I just ran across the passage of the astronomy tower being the Bloody Baron's favorite 'haunt'...sorry. I wonder if he was there on the ill fated night and can provide any information????



Steve Newton - Dec 13, 2006 6:28 am (#2128 of 2970)
This was brough up in the HBP read-a-long. No conclusion was drawn.



It's Tonks - Dec 19, 2006 6:34 pm (#2129 of 2970)
Just a thought -- other than the Maurauders, is Voldemort the only other person to call Pettigrew "Wormtail"? Seems odd that LV would know this nickname and call Pettigrew by it. I wonder how he found out about it. I don't remember anyone else calling him Wormtail but I have not done a reread of all 5 books with this in mind.



zelmia - Dec 19, 2006 10:40 pm (#2130 of 2970)
Good question. I always just assumed they kind of adopted it as his Death Eater name, seeing as how he is such a rat - even when he isn't one.
But I actually think it's because they couldn't really go around calling him Peter Pettigrew - at least not at first - because he was supposed to be dead. If someone had overheard the Death Eaters mentioning Peter Pettigrew by name, it could have really interfered with their machinations.



Laura W - Dec 20, 2006 12:06 am (#2131 of 2970)
"Just a thought -- other than the Maurauders, is Voldemort the only other person to call Pettigrew "Wormtail"?"


Severus calls Peter "Wormtail" too. HBP, Spinner's End, " 'Wormtail will get us drinks, if you'd like them,' said Snape. 'And then he will return to his bedroom.' " and " 'I had no idea, Wormtail, that you were craving more dangerous assignments,' said Snape silkily."

Laura



haymoni - Dec 20, 2006 5:55 am (#2132 of 2970)
Well the guy is a worm.

I can't believe that Voldy wouldn't be amused at the irony.



Choices - Dec 20, 2006 11:40 am (#2133 of 2970)
I'm sure Voldemort is aware of Peter's animagus form and "Wormtail" is an ideal nickname for a rat. Voldemort may have coincidentally come up with it himself, or else Peter told him he had been called that when he was in school.



Laura W - Dec 20, 2006 1:22 pm (#2134 of 2970)
"I'm sure Voldemort is aware of Peter's animagus form"

Of course he is. Peter had to have told him himself. That is how Lucius found out about Sirius turning into a big black dog when in animagus form, and recognized Snuffles on the train platform in OoP. Undoubtedly Lord Voldemort shared this info with him.

Also, in the graveyard scene in GoF, Voldemort tells the other DEs the whole story about Peter turning into a rat, living among the rats, being the Weasley's pet and finally returning to his master to serve him until the time of regeneration. He could only have gotten that story from Pettigrew himself; along with Peter's Marauder nickname.

Of course, it is obvious that Voldemort has no respect whatsoever for Pettigrew which is undoubtedly why he calls his servant the insulting "Wormtail" instead of "Peter." He calls Malfoy, "Lucius" and Bellatrix Lestrange, "Bella".

(Although, as the man/rodent who in 1981 told LV where the Potters lived and also the man/rodent who brought The Dark Lord "back to life" in 1995, I do think Peter deserves more gratitude from LV. Hmmm. Just a personal opinion.)

Laura



Detail Seeker - Dec 20, 2006 2:16 pm (#2135 of 2970)
Well, Voldemort is a good legilimens, while I doubt, that Peter knows much about occlumency. So Voldemort might have become witness of a memory involving the nickname.



TomProffitt - Dec 20, 2006 3:16 pm (#2136 of 2970)
"...I do think Peter deserves more gratitude from LV." --- Laura W

But isn't that Tom Riddle's real problem? He doesn't give anyone or anything (such as life and common human decency) the respect and gratitude they deserve.



Soul Search - Dec 20, 2006 3:20 pm (#2137 of 2970)
Doesn't the traitor always get mistreated?

Once Wormtail revealed himself as a traitor, even though he greatly benefited Voldemort and allowed him to go after Harry, Voldemort will never trust Wormtail. Wormtail doesn't understand this:

Once a traitor, always a traitor.



S.E. Jones - Dec 20, 2006 8:13 pm (#2138 of 2970)
I've always thought that Voldemort (and Snape, too) called Peter "Wormtail" because it was a reminder of what he had done for Voldemort - he betrayed the best friends who gave him that nickname - a sort of verbal backhand. It's like calling him "the guy who killed his best friend James and convinced everyone that his other best friend Sirius was a cold blooded killer, leading to him being imprisoned for twelve years", but shorter.



Thom Matheson - Dec 20, 2006 8:46 pm (#2139 of 2970)
Is that an anagram for "I am Wormtail"? Smile



Laura W - Dec 21, 2006 2:00 am (#2140 of 2970)
Soul Search , Peter was no more of a traitor to Voldemort than, say, Lucius Malfoy. After V became Vapormort, Malfoy claimed to be under the Imperious Curse during the first war and not a true DE. Yet V forgives slippery Lucius to the point where he gives him very important assignments such as getting the prophecy from Harry.

Then there is Snape. When Snape does not answer the call of the burning of his dark mark, V sees him as a traitor. Yet, when Snape goes to V two hours later, he is able to convince the Dark Lord of his loyalty and becomes - as Narcissa puts it in the Spinner's End chapter of HBP - the Dark Lord's favourite again.

As a matter of fact, Voldemort's whole speech to the assembled DEs in The Death Eaters chapter of GoF is all about how V sees all of his followers - except for the Lestranges and Crouch Jr., who went to Azkaban for him - as traitors ( "why did this band of wizards never come to the aid of their master, to whom they swore eternal loyalty?" ) which, from his point of view, is exactly what they were. No less so than Wormtail. Yet Voldemort takes them all back. To Malfoy, he says, "... you have disappointed me ... I expect more faithful service in future." To Crabb, Goyle, and Nott, he says, "... you will do better this time, will you not?"

If he had the "once a traitor, always a traitor" attitude, he'd be starting the second war with only three DEs at his disposal: the Lestranges, since Crouch Jr. has been kissed by the Dementors.

Still, I think what Peter has done for him in delivering the Potters to him in 1981, taking care of him in his shrivelled-baby state (ie - carrying him around, feeding him snake milk, etc.), delivering Bertha Jorkins to him ( "a veritable mine of information" ), and cutting off his own right hand so Vapormort could be Voldemort again is worthy of a lot of gratitude and forgiveness on the part of the Dark Lord. It's a heck of a lot more than any of those other "traitors" - like Malfoy - ever did to make up for not looking for him during those years and/or for denying him publicly. And V isn't reluctant to express his gratitude to Barty, Jr. - although he doesn't name him ( "the one who remains my most faithful servant" ) - for delivering Harry (ie - Harry's blood) to him via the Portkey

If Snape has made up for being a DE in his youth by spying for the Order all this time then, in my opinion, Peter has made up for not sticking with (ie - looking for) Voldemort by his subsequent actions which I outlined above and in my previous post. If DD forgives and trust Severus, I think LV has just as much cause to forgive and trust Peter. The difference is that Dumbledore respects Snape; Tom Riddle does not respect Peter. And nothing Pettigrew has done or will do in future to try to acquire that respect will get it for him.

JM2K

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(By the way, on a personal note, I myself totally despise Peter and have always been a little bit annoyed at Harry for not putting more blame and hatred on the man/rodent for what he did to the three people Harry loved. However, the topic here is how Voldemort views Wormtail, treats Wormtail, and thinks about Wormtail. So the opinions expressed above are *only* how I think LV should see the situation in all fairness, in light of what Peter has done for him. And what *I* see as Tom's ingratitude.)

Laura



Soul Search - Dec 21, 2006 7:58 am (#2141 of 2970)
Laura W,

I think the difference is that Wormtail was a traitor to those who thought him a friend. He betrayed his friends when threatened or just to gain a more secure position (he thought.)

The DEs didn't exactly betray Voldemort, say to the Ministry. Voldemort was disappointed that they didn't spend thirteen years looking for him, so considered them traitors to the Dark Lord. No doubt, Voldemort wanted to punish them a lot more, but realized he would need them.

Voldemort won't trust Wormtail because Wormtail has proven that he is a betrayer of friends. Voldemort will trust Malfoy and others because they fear him and will carry out his bidding.

Wormtail is also a simpering coward, by nature. Not a person to trust with a dangerous assignment. Voldemort may also mistrust Wormtail with anything related to Harry. Recall in GoF, Wormtail wanted to use another wizard for Voldmeort's rebirth, professing profusely that he didn't care about Harry. Voldemort seemed to get the idea that Wormtail wanted to steer him away from Harry.



T Vrana - Dec 21, 2006 9:01 am (#2142 of 2970)
I think LV sees him for just what he is, a snivelling, back stabbing traitorous coward. While all the DEs are cowards, Wormtail took it to a new level when he betrayed his best friend. We don't have any evidence that Malfoy or the other DEs, betrayed their closest friends. They lied to save themselves, and thought LV dead, but they didn't turn on their comrades. So, no matter what he does for LV, LV still sees him as the lowest of the low, which he is. This particular fate is quite fitting, despised by the evil he helps to sustain.

Hope we get a scene between LV and Snape. Would love to see how LV treats him. If Snape did betray DD, will LV use this against him Will he tweak whatever guilt Snape might feel?

Another oddity, not sure if it has been covered. Ron gets his Potions book early in the year, notices that his spell check quill is misspelling toward the end of the year. Why was his name spelled Roonil Waslib in his Potions book, which he presumably signed at the start, before his quill malfunctioned? It can't have been malfunctioning all year.



S.E. Jones - Dec 21, 2006 11:36 am (#2143 of 2970)
Oh, I'm quite sure it was malfunctioning all year. He did purchase it from a joke shop, after all. I'm sure Fred and George would've thought it quite funny to sell spell-checking wands that mispell when you least expect it.

Now, if he had purchased it from Scrivenshaft's Quill Shop, I'd be more suspicious.



T Vrana - Dec 21, 2006 1:33 pm (#2144 of 2970)
He never noticed all year? His Professors never noticed he was writing nonsense? Snape never noticed he put Roonil Wazlib on his assignments? Too coincidental that he used it only twice, to sign his book and at the end of term, or that it only malfuntioned twice, once at the beginning of the year and then at the end.



Laura W - Dec 21, 2006 3:49 pm (#2145 of 2970)
Soul Search ... I do not disagree at all with your post 2140 as you worded it, while still agreeing with what I wrote in 2139.

Peter betrayed the "good guys" when it suited him; then he betrayed the "bad guys" when it suited him (although he did a heck of a lot to try to amend for it). And now, on top of it all, he owes a life debt to that Potter brat! Talk about putting yourself in a no-win situation. He's toast (she said definatively).

Laura



S.E. Jones - Dec 21, 2006 6:47 pm (#2146 of 2970)
T Vrana, I doubt the twins would sell something, especially if they were trying to pass it off as properly functioning, that would mess up a whole lot right from the start. I seem to remember they had something else that worked in a similar fashion, where it messed up, on purpose, only once in a while at first (probably to put the unsuspecting person off their guard) and then started messing up more and more as time went on. It sounds just like something Fred and George would come up with to me.



Soul Search - Dec 22, 2006 10:13 am (#2147 of 2970)
Laura W,

I don't see any conflict in our opinions of Wormtail. We seem to be coming at the same thing from different directions.



deletedaccount - Dec 25, 2006 11:49 am (#2148 of 2970)
I think Voldemort resented Peter because he ended up being so important to him. Voldemort was in the fragile position of having someone else taking care of him, which I am sure the boy who did not want Dumbledore to accompany him to Diagon Alley would have despised. Therefore, Voldemort hates Peter because of what he represents to him.



Anna L. Black - Dec 25, 2006 12:30 pm (#2149 of 2970)
That's an interesting idea, Mezuzas. I've never thought about it that way, but it actually has a lot of sense. Voldemort surely can't stand being indebted to anybody in any possible way, especially to a sneaky rat like Wormtail.



Pinky Prime - Dec 25, 2006 4:37 pm (#2150 of 2970)
Edited by S.E. Jones Jan 1, 2007 1:02 am
Wormtail is exceptionally strong! Perhaps too strong for a normal man

Pulled Harry to his feet

Dragged Harry toward the Marble Headstone

Forced Harry around the marble headstone and slammed him against it

(This seems to me the reasonable strength of a strong person!)

It sounded as if Wormtail was forcing something heavy across the ground

When he came back into Harry's vision Harry saw him pushing a large stone cauldron full of water a great stone belly large enough for a full grown man to sit in.

(This seems to me quite a feat of strength!!!!!!!!!!!!)

I don't know if I could 'push' my bathtub across the ground. Cauldrons being built, differently, have a different center of gravity and would certainly take even more strength to keep it from tipping over when it was full of water.

If 1 gallon of water equals 8.33 lbs., then the weight of the water alone in the cauldron, (Approx. 60 Gallons) would be approximately 500 lbs. The Stone to support this would also be around the same. For a grand total whopper of 1000lbs. Don?t forget he pushed it along rough ground and kept upright. Makes me wonder if Wormtail performed experiments on himself besides his animagus transfiguration to make himself stronger. Or LV could have done something himself about Wormtail so he could be better protected. It seemed easy enough for LV to give him a Silver Hand. (NO PUN!)

-I just edited out some abbreviations. Please try to limit abbreviations to those found in the Commonly Used Abbreviations thread for those members who do not speak English as their primary language and who may need to use a translator program. Thank you.- SE Jones

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Soul Search - Dec 29, 2006 3:29 pm (#2151 of 2970)
Not Odd, exactly, but interesting.

I was trying to decide whether the ancient, Celtic, or the later, Christian, definition of "hallows" should be favored. There aren't many references to anything religious in Harry Potter: Christmas, Easter, and ... Saint Mungos Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries. Founded by famous wizard Healer Mungo Bonham, but no reference that he was a Saint. It always sounded to me as a tongue-in-cheek piece of minor humor ... but no!

There really is a Saint Mungo, a priest in Glasgow, Scotland, around the 540's. And, there is a Saint Mungos Cathedral in Glasgow.

But the really interesting part is St Mungos, an organization which "exists to help single homeless people in London." I understand that JKR was in such a situation before Harry Potter was published.

What a wonderful thing to do. The, almost incidental, reference to St Mungos in the Harry Potter series must have done wonders for the organization.

You Brits probably knew all about St Mungos, but I found it interesting.

(Google on "mungos" to get all the information I found.)



TheSaint - Dec 30, 2006 2:27 am (#2152 of 2970)
but no reference that he was a Saint. It always sounded to me as a tongue-in-cheek piece of minor humor ... but no!

I think you will find that when Harry and Ron use the Polyjuice to talk to Malfoy in COS...Malfoy calls him Saint Potter. LOL

I have been to St.Mungos, when HBP was released! Strange place.



Die Zimtzicke - Jan 6, 2007 6:34 pm (#2153 of 2970)
Jo was never homeless that I know of. Poor and on the dole, but not homeless. She might have just thought St. Mungo (of Glasgow) was a cool name, though.

On the broken teacups, (sorry to backtrack) if Trelawney is so fond of her cups, why doensn't she fix them when they break or get another teacher or an older student to do it for her, if she can't do that spell? I can see it now...

"My dear, would you mind fixing that cup for me? I'm rather tired from putting so much pressure on my inner eye. Thank you so much."



S.E. Jones - Jan 7, 2007 8:52 pm (#2154 of 2970)
Of the teachers we've actually seen (excluding Binns, the ghost and Firenze, the centaur) are Trewlany and Sprout the only one's we've seen not do actual magic? Or, has Sprout been shown doing a spell?



TomProffitt - Jan 8, 2007 5:25 am (#2155 of 2970)
I don't remember Sprout doing any actual casting and the closest we've seen of Trelawney is a Prophetic Trance.



Steve Newton - Jan 8, 2007 6:05 am (#2156 of 2970)
I think that Trelawney lit some candles in one of the books. She is also pretty good at making bottles of brandy disappear.



T Vrana - Jan 8, 2007 9:45 am (#2157 of 2970)
Welllll..she's good at making the brandy disappear (or is it cooking sherry?). The bottles seem more troublesome for her....



Anna L. Black - Jan 8, 2007 3:06 pm (#2158 of 2970)
I think we saw Sprout casting a spell on a plant (Venomous Tentacula?) that tried to bite her, or something to that effect. But I might be wrong.



me and my shadow 813 - Jan 8, 2007 7:14 pm (#2159 of 2970)
SE Jones, I was recently wondering about Trelawney. Funny you bring it up. I cannot recall her waving a wand. Do Seers have no use for wands? Is her third eye, is "seeing", the new wand? After all, HBP chapter 25 is called The Seer Overheard... I think she's been acknowledged finally (this is not wandless propaganda. I'm genuinely curious).



zelmia - Jan 8, 2007 7:18 pm (#2160 of 2970)
We may not have seen Sprout performing any spells "on camera"; but she was responsible for putting the Devils Snare to protect the Philosopher's Stone and she is also Head of House; so I, for one, believe she is fully capable of performing whatever spells she needs to.



Choices - Jan 9, 2007 5:41 pm (#2161 of 2970)
I'm sure both Sprout and Trelawney can use a wand, but I think Trelawney puts more emphasis on prophesy and "seeing" than she does on magic. Therefore, she relies on her "inner eye" more and less on her wand.



Soul Search - Jan 10, 2007 1:19 pm (#2162 of 2970)
I recently read HBP "Silver and Opals" and thought the sequence of actions presented might be telling us something.

Harry etal sees Mundungus with the barman then encounters him. He dumps a case, revealing some items from #12 Grimmauld Place. Harry confronts Mundungus, but Mundungus disapparates.

Tonks "appeared out of nowhere."

They go into the Three Broomsticks. Zabini is "lolling against a pillar." Ron appears to be looking for Madam Rosmerta, but she can't be seen.

The trio leaves, following Katie and Leanne out of the Three Broomsticks.
We later learn that Draco was doing a detention, so couldn't have been in the Three Broomsticks and Madam Rosmerta was under the imperio curse to give the necklace to Katie.

The odd parts are how did the necklace get to Hogsmeade and who gave orders to Madam Rosmerta to give it to Katie.

We know the necklace was still at Borgin and Burkes after Draco left the shop; Hermione asks about it. Draco has been at Hogwarts since start of term.

I am going to suggest that Mundungus was the intermediary to take the necklace from Borgin and Burkes to someone in Hogsmeade. Implies that Mundungus is even less trustworthy than we thought. Was Tonks watching Harry ... or Mundungus.

Mundungus had to deliver it to someone. Seems like Zabini is the only candidate.

Zabini then had to imperio, or just give orders if she was already imperio'd, Madam Rosmerta to give the necklace to Katie (or anyone appropriate.)

This suggests that Zabini has a closer relationship with Draco than we might have thought.



Choices - Jan 10, 2007 5:55 pm (#2163 of 2970)
Soul Search - "I am going to suggest that Mundungus was the intermediary to take the necklace from Borgin and Burkes to someone in Hogsmeade."

Perhaps Borgin and Burkes delivers?



Thom Matheson - Jan 10, 2007 7:59 pm (#2164 of 2970)
Great post SS, but we have to think like Draco. He has been adement about being the "one" to the Dark Lord. Sharing the glory with Zabini I'm not sure fits. I like Choices thought. It's clean and simple. Rosemerta was under the spell for whenever. Draco could have done that at anytime prior to that weekend. For that matter so could have Narcissa. But an Owl or direct delivery seems most likely to me.



TheSaint - Jan 10, 2007 9:50 pm (#2165 of 2970)
Possible Draco was casting the spell and Zambini was his lookout.



Soul Search - Jan 11, 2007 8:06 am (#2166 of 2970)
An owl delivery is possible, but I think a bit risky. Mundungus and Zabini were THERE, in the scene. Just by accident? I don't think so.

Mundungus was a bit of a diversion. We could easily conclude that Mundungus and Sirius's "stuff" were mentioned just so we would, later, think of the locket. Very clever.

But Zabini? We get no more than his name for five books, then he is with Draco on the train, gets invited to Slughorn's parties, and is "lolling against a pillar" in the Three Broomsticks. Makes me very suspicious.

Draco wouldn't consider having Zabini take the necklace from Mundungus and give it to Madam Rosmerta, in any way, sharing his glory. Draco came up with the plan and ordered others to carry it out; exactly what a full death eater would do. Neither Zabini nor Mundungus would have even known what they were doing; just carrying out specific tasks, with no understanding of the big picture.

I do wonder about the barman's role. We are pretty sure the barman is Aberforth, so what was he doing there with Mundungus? Tonk's role too. Was she watching Mundungus? I wonder if Borgin had alerted Dumbledore that someone, or even that Draco, had purchased the necklace?

I guess what I really find odd is that I thought we had the complete story after Draco bragged to Dumbledore on the tower, but there are still missing pieces. Yet, the whole episode seemed a done deal, so how could anything be left unsaid for DH. Does this affect Mundungus's role in DH. Will Madam Rosmerta finger Zabini? It all seems so trival to have any role in DH, yet there are some unresolved bits to the story.



Soul Search - Jan 11, 2007 9:11 am (#2167 of 2970)
Some more thoughts.

Mundungus could have told Dumbledore that he was taking a package from Borgin to Zabini, or whoever. (Not Madam Rosmerta, since then Dumbledore would have suspected her involvement.)

I thought the bit about Ron being enamored of Madam Rosmerta a bit over-the-top. Previous references do not justify such an action and statement from Hermione, even though she is a bit jealous. Seems like just a storyline excuse to establish that Madam Rosmerta is "in the back." (Where she is giving the necklace to Katie.)



LooneyLuna - Jan 11, 2007 9:27 am (#2168 of 2970)
I think Zabini was a polyjuiced Malfoy. The real Zabini was serving detention as Malfoy.



Anna L. Black - Jan 11, 2007 9:32 am (#2169 of 2970)
Great Idea, LooneyLuna! Or maybe Crabbe or Goyle were pretending to be Malfoy, and they somehow knew that Zabini wasn't going to the village, so Malfoy felt free to use his appearance. (I'm just finding it hard to believe that Zabini would do something like that for Malfoy without a very good reason - he is a Slytherin, after all; I also cannot see Malfoy confiding in Zabini to make him help).

Edit: I do want to mention something that always seemed odd to me. In the first chapter of GoF (which I'm currently re-reading), Voldemort and Wormtail have the following conversation (bold mine):

"My Lord, I must speak!" said Wormtail, panic in his voice now. "All through our journey I have gone over the plan in my head -- My Lord, Bertha Jorkin's disappearance will not go unnoticed for long, and if we proceed, if I murder --"
"If?" whispered the second voice. "If? If you follow the plan, Wormtail, the Ministry need never know that anyone else has died. You will do it quietly and without fuss; I only wish that I could do it myself, but in my present condition...Come, Wormtail, one more death and our path to Harry Potter is clear. I am not asking you to do it alone. By that time, my faithful servant will have rejoined us --"

My question is - who else needs to die in order to get to Harry? Crouch Senior? The real Mad-Eye Moody? But none of them actually died, so who are they talking about?

Harry wakes up from that dream thinking they were plotting to kill him (Harry), but that's actually never stated in that chapter. Is there somebody whose death went un-noticed??



Soul Search - Jan 11, 2007 10:05 am (#2170 of 2970)
LooneyLuna,

"I think Zabini was a polyjuiced Malfoy. The real Zabini was serving detention as Malfoy."

Good thought. Or, as Anna L. Black suggests, Crabbe or Goyle for Draco in detention and Draco in the Three Broomsticks, as Zabini. Zabini wouldn't even have had to have known that his image was used; a hair off a comb would be enough for the potion.

That works a lot better; since Draco imperio'd Madam Rosmerta, he would probably have to be the one to order her to give the necklace to Katie.

My only doubt is could, the incredibly stupid, Crabbe or Goyle pass for Draco and fool McGonnagal. Probably, if she wasn't expecting it.

I like the polyjuiced idea better than Zabini doing anything risky for Draco.

Actually, I have thought Zabini may turn out to be the "good" Slytherin and my note of his possible role in almost killing Katie sort of ruined the idea.



Choices - Jan 11, 2007 10:33 am (#2171 of 2970)
Anna Black - "My question is - who else needs to die in order to get to Harry? Crouch Senior? The real Mad-Eye Moody? But none of them actually died, so who are they talking about?"

Crouch, Senior was killed by Crouch, Junior. Wormtail failed and Crouch, Jr. did the deed. Voldemort sent him an owl to let him know that his father escaped from Wormtail and was heading toward Hogwarts. When he arrived, Harry and Krum saw him as he staggered out of the woods and Harry ran to get Dumbledore. Crouch, Jr. stunned Krum and pulled his father back into the woods, killed him, covered his body with an invisibility cloak and later transfigured him into a bone and buried him near Hagrid's cabin in the soft dirt. Crouch, Senior knew about his son and was the one standing between Voldemort and Harry. With Crouch, Senior gone, the path was clear for Crouch, Jr. to do his work and prepare Harry to go to the graveyard to face Voldemort and be killed.



Anna L. Black - Jan 11, 2007 10:57 am (#2172 of 2970)
I can't believe I forgot that he did die Good thing that I'm rereading the book, then.

And yet - this death wasn't planned at the time of their conversation, was it? Crouch Sr's escape, as you said, was due to Wormtail's "blunder" - they were intending him, at least at first, to continue go to work as usual. They are talking about a death that will go unnoticed (I could understand if it was Moody they were talking about, as nobody noticed him missing, but they needed him for his hair, so it's probably not him either...)

Maybe I'm just reading too much into this



Meoshimo - Jan 11, 2007 11:26 am (#2173 of 2970)
Having just recieved my first copy of the Harry Potter series, I found something interesting in Half-Blood Prince, US Schoolastic edition, pg. 583, Dumbledore tells Harry to "Go and wake Severus." I'm sure this isn't important, but it's odd that Dumbledore calls Snape "Severus" in front of Harry instead of "Professor Snape".



haymoni - Jan 11, 2007 5:53 pm (#2174 of 2970)
Anna - I have always wondered about that quote. I think they may have thought about murdering Mad Eye in the beginning, but found that it was better to keep him alive to get info from him.

Ah...another thing to ask Jo if ever we shall meet!

Meoshimo - that is interesting. Dumbledore is very insistent that Harry call Snape "Professor". It does seem odd, although Harry & Dumbledore had been through quite a lot together that evening. Maybe Dumbledore wasn't feeling "Headmasterish" right then.



Thom Matheson - Jan 11, 2007 6:19 pm (#2175 of 2970)
Harry, go get Severus. No problem Al, I'm on it.



painting sheila - Jan 11, 2007 6:40 pm (#2176 of 2970)
Meshimo - I agree that it's odd. I don't think he has ever called Sanpe anything other than Professor Snape . .hhmmmmm . . .

Thom - As I said before - You crack me up!! LOL!



Thom Matheson - Jan 11, 2007 6:51 pm (#2177 of 2970)
Naw, it just magic.



Laura W - Jan 12, 2007 12:24 am (#2178 of 2970)
Hey Mark, you and I must be on the same wavelength right now. (smile)

Just rereading HBP again, and noticed the same thing. Not only does Dumbledore say to Harry on the Astronomy Tower, "Go and wake Severus" (p.545, Raincoast), but earlier, when they first Apparate into Hogsmeade, Harry says he will run to the castle and get Madam Pomfrey and DD replies (p.542): "Severus. I need Severus...."

I agree with haymoni 's reason for that. DD was very sick (dying?) and had just gone through something of a hellish experience, for both Harry and himself. Harry had shown his metal by getting DD out of the cave and back to town. In some ways, I think DD felt Harry had now become a man; someone who DD could depend upon as Harry had always been able to depend upon Dumbledore. That was why DD let both his guard and his formality down on those two instances.

Either that, or Jo just kind of goofed up a bit in having Dumbledore call Snape "Severus" twice to Harry in The Lightening-Strike Tower chapter. (big grin)

Soul Search wrote: "Actually, I have thought Zabini may turn out to be the "good" Slytherin"

Soul Search, my Sickles are on Nott for that role. (wink)

Laura



painting sheila - Jan 12, 2007 4:32 am (#2179 of 2970)
Laura W and Meshimo - Maybe the relationship with DD and Snape is deeper than we thought. In a moment of crisis and need, the walls were dropped and his true need for Snape as a wizard AND a person were revealed - he called out for his friend and not just a wizard.

(off to think some more . . . )

She



Soul Search - Jan 12, 2007 6:52 am (#2180 of 2970)
Laura W,

"... my Sickles are on Nott for that role." ("Good" Slytherin)

I thought so too until Zabini took on a much larger role than Nott with the narrative on the Hogwarts Express. Was Nott even mentioned in HBP?

In addition, Zabini was invited to Slughorn's get togethers with Ginny and Hermione, so they might have gotten to know him a bit better, as well.

The discussion in the Slytherin compartment mentioned Ginny. Throughout HBP I was expecting, but dreading, that Ginny and Zabini might get together. Fortunately, that didn't happen.

As I review the compartment discussion, I don't see Zabini as enamored with Draco or Draco's fascination with Voldemort. That might be significant. Zabini seemed to be there just because they were all in Slytherin house, not as a Draco follower.

I see Zabini's larger role in HBP as foreshadowing something for DH.



Anna L. Black - Jan 12, 2007 7:05 am (#2181 of 2970)
Soul Search: I thought so too until Zabini took on a much larger role than Nott with the narrative on the Hogwarts Express. Was Nott even mentioned in HBP?

He is mentioned once - and, funnily enough, by Zabini himself:
"'I wouldn't bank on an invitation,' said Zabini. 'He asked me about Nott's father when I first arrived. They used to be old friends, apparently, but when he heard he'd been caught at the Ministry he didn't look happy, and Nott didn't get an invitation, did he? I don't think Slughorn's interested in Death Eaters.'"

But I'm just being nit-picky, I don't think it is significant in any way



Laura W - Jan 12, 2007 7:11 am (#2182 of 2970)
"As I review the compartment discussion, I don't see Zabini as enamored with Draco or Draco's fascination with Voldemort. That might be significant. Zabini seemed to be there just because they were all in Slytherin house, not as a Draco follower." (Soul Search)

Yeah, but Zabini is such a racist! He sure sounds like Sirius' mother *and* like Lucius Malfoy when it comes to blood-traitors such as the Weasleys (even good-looking ones like Ginny). Of course, something could happen early in the next book to change his views on this issue.

I really don't have a strong opinion on this question of who will be the good Slytherin (as opposed to the ridiculously strong opinions I have on most things HP). I just thought Nott because he always seemed to stand outside Draco's group of friends. Who knows? Maybe the good Slytherin will turn out to be Draco himself. (silly grin)

Laura



Thom Matheson - Jan 12, 2007 8:41 am (#2183 of 2970)
No book with me, but didn't he get pulled out of school by his folks?



TomProffitt - Jan 12, 2007 8:42 am (#2184 of 2970)
What's the reference to "who will be the good Slytherin." Is it from an interview with JKR or something? I think Slughorn is about as good as Slytherins are going to get.



Soul Search - Jan 12, 2007 8:51 am (#2185 of 2970)
Laura W,

"... but Zabini is such a racist!"

Maybe. Zabini's racist comments followed Pansy's accusation of his interest in Ginny. Pretty girls always override racism. I sensed a bit of "doth protest too much" in that exchange. After all, he was in the compartment with Draco, the ultimate racist.

"... Nott because he always seemed to stand outside Draco's group of friends."

Nott seems to stand outside everyone's group of friends; he is described as a loner. I don't know what to think of the OotP scene where Draco, etal and he had their heads together. Was Draco trying to talk Nott into something, and Nott was refusing to join? The only subsequent action we saw was on the train ride home. Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle attacked Harry, but Nott did not.

"Maybe the good Slytherin will turn out to be Draco himself. (silly grin)"

Not so silly, I think.

Draco has to have lost his fascination with Voldemort. Voldemort threatened his parents, gave him an "impossible" task, and threatened to kill him if he didn't get it done. Voldemort sent Greyback into Hogwarts, putting Draco's friends at risk, without telling Draco.

Draco (mostly) succeeded in his task (getting death eaters into Hogwarts,) but Voldemort still won't be pleased. Voldemort will, no doubt, hand Draco a few crucios for not being able to kill Dumbledore when he had the chance. There is still that hiding Draco thing Dumbledore mentioned.

Draco is a Slytherin and a leader. If anyone can convince Slytherin House to back Harry, he would be it.

I have faith in JKR's imagination. She can come up with a way for Draco to return to Hogwarts.



haymoni - Jan 12, 2007 9:02 am (#2186 of 2970)
I saw Blaise as an example of what Sirius has described - folks that follow the pure-blood philosophy - they only marry pure-bloods, they only want magic for pure-bloods - but they don't go around murdering people.

Although if Blaise DID help Draco with the necklace, he's scum.



Soul Search - Jan 12, 2007 9:24 am (#2187 of 2970)
I am convinced it was Draco polyjuiced as Zabini in the Three Broomsticks. The description "lolling against a pillar" is a perfect expression of Draco's manner and should have clued me in right off the bat. And, I don't even think Zabini was aware that his image was being used; it was done without his knowledge or permission.

My conclusion is that Zabini is the closest we have seen to a "good" Slytherin. What he lacks, perhaps, are the leadership qualities we have seen in Draco. Also, he doesn't seem to have any incentive for taking risks and going against Voldemort. Draco does ... now.

Thom Matheson,

Was Zabini taken out of school? If so, then he probably doesn't appear in the storyline anymore. Nevermind ...

Anna L. Black,

Back to your post #2168 and the question of who was targeted for Wormtail to kill.

The quoted dialog occurs before Voldemort AKs Frank Bryce. Frank could have interfered with Voldemort's stay in the mansion. Likely would have.

The dialog could be referring to Frank Bryce.

Frank conveniently came to Voldemort, but had he not, Wormtail would have had to go to his cottage and kill him.

What I find interesting is Wormtail's hesitation in killing anyone. Wormtail also tries to deflect Voldemort from using Harry for the rebirthing. Might be working up to something.



Madame Pomfrey - Jan 12, 2007 10:32 am (#2188 of 2970)
The key words to that are that the death would go unnoticed.Possibly Frank Bryce,but Voldemort said he wished he could do it himself. It has been noted by Sirius that someone killed personally by Voldemort was important. I always thought there was more to that conversation than meets the eye. JKR had to rewrite "The Dark Mark" several times in order not to give too much away,or so I read in an interview. I think we may be missing something important.

Soul Search, I like your theory and think you may be on to something.



Steve Newton - Jan 12, 2007 10:53 am (#2189 of 2970)
According to this page from the Lexicon:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

this is a difference between the English and American editions.

15 (V says) one more obstacle removed. | one more death 10 16 (V says) One more curse... | One more murder... 12

To the left is the UK version, the American to the right.



TheSaint - Jan 12, 2007 10:59 am (#2190 of 2970)
Is it possible he is talking about DD? I am sure he would have loved to do that one himself.



TomProffitt - Jan 12, 2007 11:18 am (#2191 of 2970)
I think that he was referring to either Barty Crouch, Sr who was one of the primary leaders of his opposition the first time around or Mad Eye Moody who was one of the most notable combatants his people faced. Both were significant obstacles at that point in Riddle's plans for GoF, and Harry was reserved for Riddle in that plan. We need to remember that Riddle believed that by the end of GoF he would be back in top form again, so the obstacle/murder had to be one that would have to be performed prior to the "rebodification" in the graveyard. Crouch & Moody are the two best choices from my point of view.



haymoni - Jan 12, 2007 11:18 am (#2192 of 2970)
When did Barty Jr. first contact Voldy?



Anna L. Black - Jan 12, 2007 12:33 pm (#2193 of 2970)
"this is a difference between the English and American editions." - Steve Newton

Wow! I never knew that - I have the US Edition of GoF, and I never had any reason to assume that they would change something like that, which isn't a British-only expression...

But that changes the situation completely - if we assume that the British version is the original one (or, at least, the oe that is closer to the real original), then JK never wrote anything about another death - just another curse, which fits perfectly with the events of the book (The Imperius on Moody, who was their obstacle).

I actually feel decieved now - I don't care that much when they replace "matron" and write "nurse" instead, but this one is not a small change at all! Well, one more reason to buy the UK version (my GoF, the only US edition I have, is falling apart completely, so I wanted to buy a new book anyway).



Soul Search - Jan 12, 2007 1:47 pm (#2194 of 2970)
The changes seem too much for the American editors to have made on their own, yet no one of consequence seems to have been murdered between the "dream" scene and the attack on Moody.

Surely, the American editors would not, arbitrarily, change "curse" to "murder" and "obstacle" to "death."

What's going on. This is almost as bad as the differences in the OotP tower scene.



TomProffitt - Jan 12, 2007 2:21 pm (#2195 of 2970)
" ... yet no one of consequence seems to have been murdered between ... " --- Soul Search

Both Moody and Crouch, Sr were in very real danger of being murdered. Both were placed under the Imperious and held captive. I think the difference between "curse" and "murder" is in this instance insignificant. "Curse" is somewhat less obfuscating than a planned "murder" which was eventually replaced with an almost as bad Imperious. Yet the three chief curses include the Imperious which was used and the Avada Kedavra which is implied by "murder."



S.E. Jones - Jan 12, 2007 3:12 pm (#2196 of 2970)
Soul Search --This is almost as bad as the differences in the OotP tower scene.--

What do you mean? Did I miss something on the differences page for OP?



Anna L. Black - Jan 12, 2007 3:24 pm (#2197 of 2970)
I guess Soul Search probably meant HBP, not OotP, where there's Dumbledore's speech about hiding Draco and making it appear as though he's dead. Of course, I might be mistaken

EDIT: I wandered around the Lexicon a bit after looking up the differences between the editions, and found this page: Changes to be made in US version of HBP
Turns out they're going to change the inconsistency in the Tower scene...



Soul Search - Jan 12, 2007 3:59 pm (#2198 of 2970)
Thanks Anna L. Black. Yes, I meant the tower scene in HBP. There was no tower scene in OotP, of course.



journeymom - Jan 12, 2007 4:50 pm (#2199 of 2970)
Regarding Zabini, Ginny called him a poser. A poser is a wanna be or a person who habitually pretends to be something he is not.

Jo said, ""Theodore [Nott] is a clever loner who does not feel the need to join gangs, including Malfoy's." She says he's clever! Though she's never shown him being clever. :-( But she says he's not a joiner. Maybe he wouldn't feel the need to follow his father or Draco into Death Eaterhood.

I really like the idea that it's Nott, but you guys do make some good points about Zabini. And Slughorn.



Choices - Jan 12, 2007 7:31 pm (#2200 of 2970)
Soul Search - Jan 12, 2007 3:59 pm (#2197 of 2198) "Yes, I meant the tower scene in HBP. There was no tower scene in OotP, of course."

Actually there was - Harry, Hermione and Ron are up on the tower taking their Astronomy O.W.L. when Umbridge tries to take Hagrid and McGonagall gets hit with four stunners to the chest. They watch this scene unfold from up on the tower.

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Thom Matheson - Jan 12, 2007 9:36 pm (#2201 of 2970)
Big oops, it wasn't Zasbini that got pulled from school it was Zach Smith. Sorry about that.



Soul Search - Jan 12, 2007 10:13 pm (#2202 of 2970)
Choices,

Oops AGAIN. That darned tower shows up everywhere. Come to think of it, the astronomy tower has had a role in PS/SS, POA, OotP, and HBP, that I can think of. Not sure about PoA. Popular place.

Thom Matheson,

Ah ... So Zabini is back in the picture.

Maybe we will find him on the astronomy tower in DH.



haymoni - Jan 13, 2007 10:14 am (#2203 of 2970)
Do we know what year Nott is?



journeymom - Jan 13, 2007 10:58 am (#2204 of 2970)
Same year as the Trio.



TomProffitt - Jan 13, 2007 10:58 am (#2205 of 2970)
"Do we know what year Nott is?" --- haymoni

Yes, he's in Harry's year. JKR confirmed that he was in Harry's Thestral class in PoA in response to Lexicon Steve's Open Letter. I don't know if there is other canon evidence or not.



journeymom - Jan 13, 2007 11:23 am (#2206 of 2970)
I was going to mention that Nott hangs out with Draco and Zabini, but Luna and Ginny hang out with the Trio as well.



Laura W - Jan 13, 2007 11:16 pm (#2207 of 2970)
I don't agree. Nott is around them because he is a Slytherin, but he does not "hang out" with Draco and Zabini. Ginny actually does hang out with the Trio; both in school and in the summer.

Remember who was in the Slytherin car on the Hogwarts Express in The Slug Club chapter, HBP: Parkinson, Malfoy, Zabini, Goyle, and Crabbe. In other words, Draco's gang. And Nott was not (- smirk) present. Hmm. I'm going back to my original theory that he will play a role in DH as a good Slytherin. His father was/is a Death Eater, but I'm guessing he has no use for that allegiance.

Laura



haymoni - Jan 14, 2007 8:50 am (#2208 of 2970)
I forgot about good ole "Stringy" in the Thestral class.

All I could remember was Draco talking to him in the Great Hall.



Soul Search - Jan 15, 2007 10:33 am (#2209 of 2970)
I think our definition of "good Slytherin" has become lost. I thought we defined the "good Slytherin" as the student that brought Slytherin House into the "Hogwarts united against Voldemort" fold. (As the Sorting Hat preached in OotP and HBP.)

I don't doubt that there are many Slytherin's that don't, and won't, support Voldemort. But, is there one that will take charge and lead the Slytherins to unite with the other Hogwarts' houses supporting Harry against Voldemort. Comments from Phineas Nigellus in OotP and, perhaps, Slughorn's example, show us that Slytherins do not take risks for altruistic causes.

From what we can tell, Nott would not support Draco against Harry, even though Harry had named his father as a death eater. Also, Nott, being a loner, does not seem like the one to "take charge and lead." Even more, Nott does not have any incentive to take an unwarranted risk. Nott won't lead, he might not even join that cause.

Zabini became of interest because of his sudden expanded role in HBP. Was this a foreshadowing? But, otherwise, we haven't seen him as "take charge and lead," nor have we seen any incentive for Zabini to take a risk.

I think we can rule out Crabbe, Goyle, and Parkinson.

That leaves Draco Malfoy. Draco is a "take charge and lead" person; we have seen him do just that on numerous occasions. (Although, mostly against Harry.) Draco has seen Voldemort's true nature and, now, has considerable incentive to oppose him. He may have even more incentive if Voldemort decides to punish Draco or kill him and/or his parents.

The only real question is how will Draco get back to Hogwarts. I am guessing some sort of witness protection program, or just as a safe haven from Voldemort. And, with Dumbledore dead, who will allow him that protection. Harry?

There is that little problem of Draco bringing death eaters into the castle and setting up the events on the tower. Who all knows of Draco's role in that? How much did Harry tell of Draco's role?

And, Harry did make a point that Draco lowered his wand.



TomProffitt - Jan 15, 2007 11:07 am (#2210 of 2970)
Soul Search, I don't think that we're going to see "Hogwarts United" in any sort of clearly definable manner. I think the Sorting Hat was asking for something it knew it wasn't going to get, but felt it important to ask never-the-less.

Sort of like a politician asking for partisanship to be set aside on a particular issue.



journeymom - Jan 15, 2007 1:20 pm (#2211 of 2970)
In the battle in the DoM Nott Sr was injured and Harry heard Lucius Malfoy say, "Leave Nott, Leave him, I say, the Dark Lord will not care for Nott's injuries as much as losing that prophecy..."

Maybe Nott Jr will consider this when it's time for him to make a choice.



Soul Search - Jan 15, 2007 2:56 pm (#2212 of 2970)
TomProffitt,

I have to disagree. The Sorting Hat mentioned it in OotP, and, Hermione tells Harry, again in HBP. That is two hints. Also, it is quite possible that Hogwarts becomes a battle ground, maybe even the last battle ground. I can see students rallying to defend Hogwarts, including Slytherin House.

journeymom,

I missd that about Nott, Sr. Good pickup.

With Nott, Sr. in Azkaban, how might that affect Nott, the son? Could go either way, I think.



Mrs Brisbee - Jan 15, 2007 3:31 pm (#2213 of 2970)
I can see students rallying to defend Hogwarts, including Slytherin House.

Now, that would be something to see. I wonder if Voldemort sending Fenrir to Hogwarts in HBP will backfire on him. I bet not even the nastiest Slytherin was pleased to know that they could have been bitten.



me and my shadow 813 - Jan 15, 2007 10:34 pm (#2214 of 2970)
Mrs Brisbee, I agree. Hopefully Lupin is successful with a werewolf mutiny, and Fenrir will be soon gone.

Soul Search, perhaps Dobby will assist in helping Draco. Dobby said he likes keeping DD's secrets. DD might have left Dobby with a task of his own... he was the Malfoy elf so he might be able to assist in a secure passage.



S.E. Jones - Jan 16, 2007 3:54 am (#2215 of 2970)
Thanks for the clarification regarding the "tower scene". I wonder why Jo wanted those lines cut from the book? Do you think it is to make it more ambiguous what Draco's task was supposed to be?



MickeyCee3948 - Jan 16, 2007 7:45 am (#2216 of 2970)
me and my shadow 813 - Since Lupin was fighting with the order at Hogwarts and was at Dumbledores funeral I doubt if he would be welcomed back within the werewolf underground. Kinda blew his cover if you know what I mean. Personally I think the Fenrir will be present at the final battle and Tonks will take a shot or two at him for what Fenrir did to her man.

Mickey



Laura W - Jan 16, 2007 8:03 am (#2217 of 2970)
Awww .... your such a romantic, Mickey. (smile)

"Since Lupin was fighting with the order at Hogwarts and was at Dumbledores funeral I doubt if he would be welcomed back within the werewolf underground. Kinda blew his cover if you know what I mean"

That being the case, it's kind of "odd" that Fenrir didn't go after Remus during that battle, instead of Bill. He would have more reason to savage and undoubtedly kill that Order-Member-In-Werewolf's-Clothing -- to mangle an expression -- than to attack anyone else in the place.

The only thing I can think of - and this is the argument against what Mickey wrote - is that none of the werewolves Lupin have been hanging out with (and trying to bring over to DD's side) since LVs return have ever seen him in wizard form. Including Greyback. So they don't know what he looks like when he's not furry with sharp teeth.

I don't know though. (scratching head)

Laura



Thom Matheson - Jan 16, 2007 8:20 am (#2218 of 2970)
Couldn't werewolves hang together in human form the rest of the month? Kind of a community if you will? Just a small town, called Terrierville, or Mutt Town, or something. Maybe Moon Over My Hammy?



TheSaint - Jan 16, 2007 8:23 am (#2219 of 2970)
I don't think that can be the case. If that were true then he would only be with the werewolves during a full moon. Not exactly a time to convey any kind of information. I think he has infiltarted their group on a more permanent basis. He spends the down time trying to persuade the others away from Greyback's way of thinking. The rest may find thier treatment at the hands of wizards disheartening, but I am sure that more than a few remember what it was like when they became one and have no desire to purposely inflict that on another. So two camps battle for thier hearts, Greyback's way - with blood and torture, or Lupin's way - with peaceful protest and education of the masses. Sounds sort of familiar.



Laura W - Jan 16, 2007 8:45 am (#2220 of 2970)
Remus "Ghandi" Lupin? I thought his middle name was John. (big warm smile at The Saint)

Ok, so I decided to go and look at exactly the wording of how Lupin described his role as werewolf-infiltrator. I had always assumed he just spent time with them when in werewolf-form but I now think you are right, Saint.

Lupin tells Harry in HBP, chapter 16, that he hasn't been able to write to the boy because that would be a give-away to the other werewolves. If he was only with them for say one week a month, he could easily write Harry the other times when he would be away from them.

When he says, "I have been living among my fellows, my equals. Werewolves.", it seems he means literally living among those who are infected and get their full-blown symptoms when the moon is full. I never exactly saw it that way, but now I do. Poor Remus! No wonder, when Harry sees him at the Burrow that Christmas, he "was thinner and more ragged-looking than ever."

Ok, that now being the situation, I repeat even more fervently that it is strange that Fenrir did not go absolutely ballistic and tear Lupin limb from limb when, at the battle in Hogwarts, he saw him for what he was: Dumbledore's man pretending to be a loyal member of the werewolf community. A community ruled over by Fenrir Greyback.

Laura

Hey, no werewolf jokes, Thom! You're talking about the man I love. (giggle, giggle)



MickeyCee3948 - Jan 16, 2007 8:55 am (#2221 of 2970)
Thom - You got me to laugh for a solid minute!! With everything going on in my life right now, I needed that. Thank You.

Mickey



Thom Matheson - Jan 16, 2007 9:03 am (#2222 of 2970)
I'm telling Tonks. She'll not be happy. Sorry but also Howlerville. I knew I forgot one. Sorry Laura



Anna L. Black - Jan 16, 2007 11:04 am (#2223 of 2970)
Maybe Lupin wasn't close enough to Fenrir, so they never actually met? (Just how many werewolves are in that community of theirs Howlerville (), I wonder?)



Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 16, 2007 3:09 pm (#2224 of 2970)
Part of the reason Fenrir may not have recognized Remus may be due in all probability due to his rejection of the Wolfsbane Potion

I highly doubt that Fenrir would utilize something that would cause him to become placid, more controllable and less ravenous during his lycanthropic episodes, even though these episodes are accompanied by a diminished mental capacity as Lupin noted in PoA when describing the effects of the Wolfsbane Potion to Harry.



Madame Pomfrey - Jan 16, 2007 4:16 pm (#2225 of 2970)
That now being the situation, I repeat even more fervently that it is strange that Fenrir did not go absolutely ballistic and tear Lupin limb from limb when, at the battle in Hogwarts, he saw him for what he was: Dumbledore's man pretending to be a loyal member of the werewolf community. A community ruled over by Fenrir Greyback. Laura

Laura,do we have proof that Fenrir actually saw Lupin? If so.. Wow,that may add to Wynnleaf's theory that Lupin is a traitor.



me and my shadow 813 - Jan 16, 2007 4:37 pm (#2226 of 2970)
Remus was bitten as a child, and I don't know of canon (off the top of my head) that Fenrir has been in contact with him since. It may be Fenrir simply does not know him - could be he bites the child and moves on. There may be quite a large werewolf population (given Fenrir's appetite, and others's as well), so Remus might have slipped into the background, hopefully. So he is properly incognito for his task.



journeymom - Jan 16, 2007 5:07 pm (#2227 of 2970)
Where was Lupin when Fenrir entered the school from the RoR?

Off the present topic, there's something that I do not understand.

OP US p.794 Harry tells Neville, "I'll bet you can get Hermione up the corridor and into the lift.... Then you could find someone.... Raise the alarm..."

"And whad are you going do do?" said Neville, mopping his bleeding nose with his sleeve and frowning at Harry.

"I've got to find the others, " said Harry.

"Well, I'b going do find dem wid you," said Neville firmly.

"But Hermione- "

"We'll dake her wid us," said Neville firmly. "I'll carry her- You're bedder at fighding dem dan I ab-"

He stood up and seized one of Hermione's arms, glared at Harry, who hesitated, then grabbed the other and helped hoist Hermione's limp form over Neville's shoulders. "

Does Neville glare at Harry because Harry seemingly didn't want to cooperate? Why does Harry hesitate? Maybe he just doesn't want to bring along injured Neville and Hermione sack-of-potatoes because it would slow him down?

Can we contrast this with Lucius, who ordered the DE's to leave Nott Sr behind?



TheSaint - Jan 16, 2007 8:25 pm (#2228 of 2970)
My take is the glare is Neville's way of convincing Harry to take him along, as Harry did not want to put any more of them in danger.

I think that would be an excellent contrast.



painting sheila - Jan 16, 2007 10:39 pm (#2229 of 2970)
I just read the passage in OoP where Filch is telling Harry that Umbridge is going to get the ministry to expel Peeves from Hogwarts.

Does seem odd to anyone else?

She used and italicized "And" at the start of that paragraph like she really wanted to emphasize it.




S.E. Jones - Jan 16, 2007 11:21 pm (#2230 of 2970)
Laura --I repeat even more fervently that it is strange that Fenrir did not go absolutely ballistic and tear Lupin limb from limb when, at the battle in Hogwarts, he saw him for what he was: Dumbledore's man pretending to be a loyal member of the werewolf community. A community ruled over by Fenrir Greyback.--

Do we really have proof that Fenrir "rules" over this community or werewolves, or that it's one community instead of two or three small communities? Or that this community is so small and interconnected that Greyback would've known Lupin was living there? We know that the werewolves Lupin is living among "have shunned normal society and live on the margins, stealing - and sometimes killing - to eat" ("margins" doesn't sound like an actual community so much as small groups that might roam and communicate between themselves) and that they like Voldemort because they think it will make their lives better and that "it is hard to argue with Greyback out there". We also know that Fenrir specializes in biting children and then believes they should be raised away from their parents so they learn to hate normal wizards, but we don't know if Greyback raises them (horrible thought) or if he just gives them to other werewolf outcasts. (I also seriously doubt all werewolf bites stem from Greyback and the children he turned.) We also know that Greyback is "the man Voldemort is using to marshal the werewolves" which makes it sound like he's just Voldemort's mouthpiece among the werewolf population they way Remus is Dumbledore's eyes among them, not like Fenrir is controlling that population. I'm not surpised at all that Lupin has been able to live among the werewolves without Greyback ever setting eyes on him so I'm really not surprised that Greyback didn't recognize and thus attack Lupin during the Death Eaters' trek through Hogwarts.



Laura W - Jan 17, 2007 1:07 am (#2231 of 2970)
"Laura,do we have proof that Fenrir actually saw Lupin?" (Madam Pomfrey)

There is no specific canon in HBP that Fenrir actually saw Remus in the battle scene. The thing is that there were not exactly hundreds of people involved in the battle. I don't know how all of the combatants on both sides could not have been aware of who was present. The whole battle took place in a relatively small area: in one corridor and on the stairs up to the Astronomy Tower (until the barrier), and that final scene on the Tower. It's not like it took place all over the castle, where one group of DEs and Order members would not run into another group of DEs and Order members. Therefore, I'm afraid I reject the idea that Fenrir did not see Lupin, and vice versa.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

"There may be quite a large werewolf population (given Fenrir's appetite, and others's as well), so Remus might have slipped into the background, hopefully. So he is properly incognito for his task." (me and my shadow)

Good point. I guess I saw all the British werewolves as congregating together in a colony, as it were. Maybe, as you say, there are so many of them that Lupin has managed to "live among them" and spread his anti-Voldemort message without actually having had to come into contact with Greyback all that time. Ok, so maybe that is why Greyback did not attack Lupin; he had never actually met him and therefore did not know he was a werewolf (let alone a werewolf who is also part of DD's Order of the Phoenix). If you're right, me and my, then Remus has not blown his cover and can continue - in Book Seven - to keep trying to convince the werewolf population that they should not go over to LVs side. That's comforting. Thanks.

------------------------------------------------------

"Where was Lupin when Fenrir entered the school from the RoR?" (journeymom)

Well, according to McGonagall (HBP, p.575, Raincoast), he would be patrolling the halls of Hogwarts on DD's orders; along with Bill and Nymphadora. As they were patrolling, Malfoy let the DEs in through the Vanishing Cabinet in the ROR. Draco told DD this in The Lightening-Struck Tower chapter. We also know, from that conversation between Dumbledore and Draco, that Fenrir Greyback came into the school with the DEs the same way - although the young Malfoy was not expecting him to show up and obviously was not at all happy that he did.

-------------------------------------------------

Sarah, I will take back the word "ruled." There can be no doubt, however, that Greyback is hugely influential in the werewolf community. In the conversation with Harry in chapter 16 of HBP, Lupin as much as says so. He sees his task as being so difficult because of how successful Greyback has been in bringing the beasts over to Voldemort. "I cannot pretend that my particular brand of reasoned argument is making much headway against Greyback's insistence that we werewolves deserve blood, that we ought to revenge ourselves on normal people," he says. And, "It is hard to argue with Greyback out there."

Hard to argue with Greyback? Why? Answer: because the old wolf is so powerful and influential in the werewolf community, that's why. So, "ruled" wasn't the word, but this is what I meant.

Laura



S.E. Jones - Jan 17, 2007 3:18 am (#2232 of 2970)
Oh, I agree that "influential" is the right term, but I don't think it's because he has the power to order other werewolves around but rather he's saying what they want/need to hear. (Please note the following isn't posted to drag politics into the discussion, but is presented as an example.) I keep thinking about post-World War I Germany. After the Treaty of Versailles the German people were forced to pay for a war that they didn't start and a war they agreed to end of their own accord. By the time people like Hitler came around (as far as the public eye is concerned), the German people were tired, taxed, and, for the most part, poor. He told them that it wasn't their fault but that these conditions were forced on them, that they were special and had an important part to play, and then he gave them specific targets onto which they could focus all the resentments, frustrations, and hate that a world war and its aftermath had created. It's very similar to the way an emotionally neglected child longs to hear that they are special and worthy of love and compassion, that they have significance. People like Hitler fed off of that, creating a very strong following that, in that particular case, developed into WWII. I see Greyback in a very similar manner. It's not that he, himself, is somehow inspiring to werewolves or that they fear/adore him, it's that he's telling his fellow outcasts that they can belong, they can be important, they deserve something better and can achieve it by joining with Voldemort. That's why Lupin's cool, logical approach isn't working against Greyback's emotional argument that is tailored to the werewolves' own desires. Fenrir in no way controls the werewolves (at least not yet as far as I can tell), but he certainly has their ear and attention, which can be a very powerful position.



Laura W - Jan 17, 2007 5:20 am (#2233 of 2970)
S.E. Jones, Lupin himself makes your point in OoP, Chapter Five. He and Bill are discussing whether the goblins will join You-Know-Who, and Remus says, "I think it depends what they're offered. And I'm not talking about gold. If they're offered the freedoms we've been denying them for centuries they're going to be tempted." (p. 81, Raincoast)



haymoni - Jan 17, 2007 5:48 am (#2234 of 2970)
Is there canon that Fenrir is a wizard?



MickeyCee3948 - Jan 17, 2007 6:06 pm (#2235 of 2970)
I don't think it matters if Fenrir saw Remus during the battle. What is he going to do call time out so he can run over to Remus and bite him for being a bad werewolf. Come on they were all dodging AK's, curses and firing off their own curses. He couldn't exactly isolate on one person no matter how much he wanted to.

My point is it would be very dangerous for Remus to return to the werewolf community assuming he was not spotted by Fenrir.

Laura W - I wonder what Harry or the MOM could offer the Goblins to get them over to the good side. And how much could the goblins do in a battle. Do they have special powers such as the house elves? I don't think that at this late date we have any indication.

Mickey



TheSaint - Jan 18, 2007 5:27 am (#2236 of 2970)
Rereading GOF...I just finished the section where Harry sees the dragons and is running back to the school to meet Sirius' head in the fire. I was quite struck by Karkaroff's reaction to Harry running into him. His 'like he was looking around for a dog.' We know Sirius is back in the country, close by. Is he meeting Karkaroff? This in conjunction with Snape's insistence in POA that James would not listen to warnings about Sirius, really makes me leary.

Wondering if some Volde related trick could be in play here. Transplant the memory of betrayal to Peter and then have Peter take out Sirius, though he fails. Something just feels wrong.

Probably just Jo herring.



Laura W - Jan 18, 2007 10:12 am (#2237 of 2970)
Mickey Cee, I would love to discuss the goblin situation with you!

But, as they probably do not stike either of us as "odd", perhaps this is not the place. Goblins - and their unequal relationship with wizards - are mentioned on several occasions in the HP books (weren't you listing to Professor Binns? - grin), and interest me a lot, as do all the unfairly-oppressed groups in these books.

It is entirely up to you, but if you want to take the last paragraph of your last post to "Not Covered in Other Threads" or *wherever* you think appropriate, I will come along with you.

Laura

"What is he going to do call time out so he can run over to Remus and bite him for being a bad werewolf" (Mickey)

Now, that's funny!!



Thom Matheson - Jan 20, 2007 10:40 pm (#2238 of 2970)
Just rereading SS/PS and the Erisid chapter. Harry looks into the mirror and sees his mother and father as well as lots of others. A few with his green eyes. I take that to mean Lily's side of the family.

Could a young Petunia be in the mirror? Not likely but certainly Harry's Grandparents. Next random thought is why no pictures of or reference of Petunia's parents in her house? Wouldn't she have pics of her parents? Harry's reaction in the mirror is that he is seeing them for the first time. Very odd, and a bit surprising. For that matter, what about any Aunts, Uncles, or Vernons family?



Detail Seeker - Jan 21, 2007 1:50 am (#2239 of 2970)
I do not think, he saw the real images of his ancestors, but what he imagined, his ancestors would look like. So, it seems, as if he extrapolated form his looks and the few bits of information about the looks of his parents, he had.



The giant squid - Jan 21, 2007 2:03 am (#2240 of 2970)
I agree with Detail Seeker. The mirror shows your greatest desire, and Harry's at that time was to have a family. It didn't necessarily show his actual family, just what he imagined his family would look like--hence the green eyes & glasses permeating the vision.

Also, if it's harry's greatest desire, I don't wonder that there's no sign of Petunia in there...

--Mike



S.E. Jones - Jan 21, 2007 3:10 am (#2241 of 2970)
I don't know. It might be part of the mirror's magic that it shows you exactly what a person looked like if your greatest desire was to see a person (as in Harry's case). Later when he sees Lily and James in the pictures Hagrid gives him he recognizes them immediately from the mirror, doesn't he? If there had been any major differences between what he saw in the mirror and what he saw in the photos I'm sure it would've been mentioned.



Laura W - Jan 21, 2007 3:20 am (#2242 of 2970)
I'm not sure, but I am rather on the side that says Harry really did see his actual relatives. The reason he would not have seen Petunia or anyone from Vernon's side is because, upon looking in the mirror, the 11-year-old boy saw his greatest desire: a family who loved him. Thus, Petunia and Vernon did not qualify (nor did Dudley or Aunt Marge).

Laura



Thom Matheson - Jan 21, 2007 7:54 am (#2243 of 2970)
Did Petunia not have her parents photo around?



haymoni - Jan 21, 2007 9:25 am (#2244 of 2970)
I'll bet she didn't - especially the way she said it was all "Lily this and Lily that".

Poor, poor Pet.

(Did I say that????)



Choices - Jan 21, 2007 10:53 am (#2245 of 2970)
I think Harry had an accurate image of his parents because he had seen them as a baby, but his other relatives in the mirror may have been as Harry imagined them to look.



painting sheila - Jan 21, 2007 11:42 am (#2246 of 2970)
Harry may have had pictures of his extended family in his home before LV came calling.

Even as a young baby I think things we see and hear are deep in our sub conscience. All we see and hear and experience is stored - not just what we choice to have stored.

Anyway - I don't think Harry considers the Dursley's as "family" not in the loving sense of the word. He may have to call them his family because they are related by blood - but it takes more that a gene pool to make a family!

Just me two knuts -

She



MickeyCee3948 - Jan 21, 2007 2:20 pm (#2247 of 2970)
I don't remember anything being said about any pictures of Petunia's parents. Only relative was Vernon's sister Marge.

On the subject of the mirror not showing Petunia or Vernon. Maybe the mirror only shows magical members of the family. None of the portraits or pictures we have seen have had non magical folk in them.

Mickey



haymoni - Jan 21, 2007 5:54 pm (#2248 of 2970)
I just figured it was everyone who was dead.



Die Zimtzicke - Jan 21, 2007 6:21 pm (#2249 of 2970)
I think he saw his acutal relatives, but it did have to be people who were dead, since he was longing for his lost family, not for the Dursleys. If it showed your greatest desire, it certainly wouldn't have shown Petunia.



The giant squid - Jan 22, 2007 2:47 am (#2250 of 2970)
If it showed your greatest desire, it certainly wouldn't have shown Petunia.


Regardless of whether the images in the mirror were real or imagined family, I think we can all agree on this.

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Steve Newton - Jan 22, 2007 6:06 am (#2251 of 2970)
I posted this by mistake on another thread and it is in response to Die. I have never figured out whether or not Harry saw his real family or the one that he wanted. The idea that he wanted to see his lost family is very appealing.



Thom Matheson - Jan 29, 2007 7:31 am (#2252 of 2970)
Just did the PS/SS reread. How did Charlie's friends fly over the walls to pick up Norbert with all the school enchantments?



journeymom - Jan 29, 2007 9:56 am (#2253 of 2970)
Dumbledore knew about the whole thing and lowered the protective enchantments per Charlie's request.

That's just my flippant answer, not based upon canon. Though Dumbledore does have that air of omniscience.

Or JKR simply ignored that detail or didn't even notice it.



Steve Newton - Jan 29, 2007 10:03 am (#2254 of 2970)
I got the impression that the extra protections put up in the 6th year are what prohibited flying in and out. The twins seem to have no problem flying out in OOTP and neither does the intrepid sextet on the Thestrals at the end of OOTP. Owls always seem to come and go at will but they seem to be a special case.



Choices - Jan 29, 2007 10:17 am (#2255 of 2970)
Right you are, Steve. The extra security precautions were put up in the sixth year due to the return, and increased threat, of Voldemort. Yes, he returned at the end of GOF (to full body), but he spent about a year (I believe) gathering his followers and gaining strength. After the MOM battle, it was general knowledge that Voldemort was back and so security (Aurors and Order members) was increased. The castle protections were strengthened and Aurors were assigned to patrol Hogsmeade and surrounding area.



Thom Matheson - Jan 29, 2007 10:30 am (#2256 of 2970)
Not so odd now, thanks Steve



The giant squid - Feb 1, 2007 12:52 am (#2257 of 2970)
Well, there goes my "The Ford Anglia crashed because of the no-fly enchantments" theory.



Madame Pomfrey - Feb 7, 2007 11:23 am (#2258 of 2970)
I would really appreciate your input on this one.I would take it to the Snape thread ,but I might get beatup over there so here goes..

In book 1 when Harry 's broom is bewitched Hermione goes over and catches Snape's robes on fire.It is later told that Snape was muttering a countercurse to help Harry. What is odd is that Hermione knocks Quirrell over on her way to Snape.She walks down the row reaches Snape and catches his robe on fire which takes at least 30 seconds for Snape to notice,she then walks to the end of the row.Harry was suddenly able to get back on his broom.

Why was Harry suddenly able to mount his broom when Quirrell had been knocked over more than 30sec before Snape's robes caught fire? Even if the curse needs time to break Snape was still muttering a countercurse at this time,so why wasn't it working?



Thom Matheson - Feb 7, 2007 12:25 pm (#2259 of 2970)
Did you count in the wind direction and shift? Smile Sorry, you're being serious, and I'm being a prat. Don't know why that was my first thought.

I just thought that it took Harry that long to regain his composure enough to get back on the broom.. Kind of when on the tower it took him a moment to realize he was no longer frozen.



Die Zimtzicke - Feb 7, 2007 1:05 pm (#2260 of 2970)
Maybe Quirrell's curse was stronger than the countercurse, or Snape was trying out different countercurses trying to figure out which spell was bing used.

Of course it was necessary for the plot for Harry to think it was Snape being on fire that helped him, not Quirrell being knocked over.



Madame Pomfrey - Feb 7, 2007 4:16 pm (#2261 of 2970)
Thanks for the input. I'm trying really hard to convince myself that Snape is good,but when I read things like this it just puts me back in the don't trust Snape mode.



Mrs Brisbee - Feb 7, 2007 6:15 pm (#2262 of 2970)
**chuckles**

I can't imagine how Rowling would work it in that Snape wasn't actually doing a countercurse at this point. I know a big deal is often made out of certain stretches of time-- like those five seconds it took Harry to be able to move again on the Tower in HBP, or the hours and hours it took Snape to rally the troops to the DoM in OotP.

I think time just moves differently for J.K. Rowling.



Madame Pomfrey - Feb 7, 2007 9:11 pm (#2263 of 2970)
Exactly.And we want absolute accuracy down to the second. She could work in that he was also cursing Harry and is Voldemorts secret weapon,his most faithful and Dumbledore's biggest mistake,but I won't go there.:scared:



TheSaint - Feb 8, 2007 5:31 am (#2264 of 2970)
I just assummed that after struggling to hold onto the broom for so long, it took him 30 seconds to recover enough strength to pull himself up (I don't think i would be able to).



wynnleaf - Feb 8, 2007 6:01 am (#2265 of 2970)
Madame Pomfrey,

That's a really interesting little scene. First, it's one of the very, very few times (maybe the only time) in the HP series where JKR, right in the middle of a chapter, pulls out of Harry's point of view (called third person limited) and starts narrating the action from other characters point of view (third person omniscient). Normally, the reader only gets to see whatever Harry sees, as though we're looking over his shoulder. But in this case, Harry can't hear Hermione, Ron and Hagrid talking, nor does he know about Hermione going to try and stop what she thinks is Snape cursing the broom. But we do get to see it.

This is a particularly good example of unreliable narrator, by the way. JKR wants the reader to think, right along with Hermione and Ron, that Snape is cursing the broom. She doesn't want us to know until the end of the book, when Quirrell makes his confessions, that it was Quirrell doing the cursing while Snape was actually doing a counter-curse instead.

So she sets up the action so that we get to see Hermione and others watch Snape's lips moving and Hermione's assumption that he's cursing the broom. Then JKR shows us Hermione going to stop Snape, and bumping into Quirrell just before she reaches Snape. She tells us in the narration that Hermione knocked Quirrell over, but we pay little attention to that as our thoughts are on Hermione's attempt to stop Snape, which she does with the fire.

After knocking Quirrell over, JKR never has Hermione look up, until after setting the fire and disrupting Snape's attention, when she sees Harry getting back on his broom. She, and the reader, assumes that Harry's broom only settled down the instant Snape's attention was broken. However, we aren't actually shown exactly how long Harry's broom had quit bucking and how long he'd been struggling to crawl back onto his broom. And, of course, we don't really know how long it would take Quirrell's curse to end after he broke eye contact.

Still, it's classic unreliable narrator. In point of fact, the narration isn't unreliable, in the sense that the narrator never lied to the reader. But it's written in such a way that the reader accepts events exactly as Hermione believed they happened. Until, of course, the truth is revealed in the final chapters, the whole point of using unreliable narrator being to make those final revelations all the more surprising.



Mrs Brisbee - Feb 8, 2007 6:22 am (#2266 of 2970)
One reason I find the term "unreliable narrator" to be a useless term is that every single thing ever written down is from someone's point of view, be it a character or the narrator, so we the readers are always interpreting the facts presented with that in mind. I read far too many mystery novels, so those tricks are all old hat to me. We also get "unreliable source" discussions sometimes. Whose view of events is more reliable, Hermione's or Quirrellmorts? I actually believe Quirrellmort simply for literary purposes: time to wrap things up and explain all at the end-- "The reliable narrator", sort of the opposite of "unreliable narrator". Generally it all comes down to the same thing then-- looking at the clues as presented and judging what they mean based on what we know and what we think the author is trying to convey.

Edit: I think what this comes down to is if there can be found a plausible explanation for something, then it isn't odd. Is Quirrellmort's story plausible, and is it plausible that it took Harry 30 seconds to be able to regain control of his broom and pull himself up? I think so. I actually haven't thought about it much the other way, that it could all be a set up from Voldy. I don't think it is, because Snape didn't seem to know Voldy was stuck to the back of Quirrell's head-- Voldy appears to have been operating undercover and and hadn't contacted any of his old DE buddies.



wynnleaf - Feb 8, 2007 7:23 am (#2267 of 2970)
Mrs Brisbee

The unreliable narrator term should refer to the narrator, and what the narrator shows or tells the reader, not specifically about trustworthy and untrustworthy characters. However, I agree that the term probably gets overused to the point where it seems like some people are saying that whenever you can't trust something, it's "unreliable narrator."

Still, I think you're right about Quirrell's remarks at the end. They are the typical end-of-story villian-reveals-all revelations so we can be sure (I hope!) that all of Quirrell's admissions to Harry at that time are correct.



Madame Pomfrey - Feb 8, 2007 9:09 am (#2268 of 2970)
I agree that Quirrels account of what happened is a reliable source,but couldn't he have been lying about Snape's heroics so to not blow his(Snape's) cover? Now that we know Snape can read minds(a muggle way of putting it, I know)How is it that Snape was unable to read into Quirrell as to who and what he wanted the stone for,especially a weak minded wizard like Quirrell? Also,later in the book Harry hears Quirrell sobbing which is later explained by Quirrell that his master was displeased with him. The oddity in this is that Harry saw Quirrell leave the room and upon entering same room,discovered an open door in the room.Now,if Quirrell was talking with his master why would he do so with a door open I think he would be afraid of being overheard? This is one of those times Harry decided he wasn't going to be nosy.He didn't investigate the opened door that Jo took trouble to tell us about.Was Snape in that room too, or an invisible Dumbledore?

There is also Snape's very irate behavior after the Quidditch match ended so soon when Snape was referee.It could be said that Snape was mad that Quirrell missed another chance at destroying Harry.



S.E. Jones - Feb 8, 2007 12:36 pm (#2269 of 2970)
Madame Pomfrey --Now that we know Snape can read minds(a muggle way of putting it, I know)How is it that Snape was unable to read into Quirrell as to who and what he wanted the stone for,especially a weak minded wizard like Quirrell?--

Well, Quirrell said that Voldemort jumped into the back of his head when he failed to get the stone from the bank at the beginning of the book (hence why he's wearing the turban when he shows up for classes), so my guess would be that Voldemort (being the experienced Legilimens/Occulimens that he is) blocked Snape's attempts. Quirrell may not have had to do anything.



Madame Pomfrey - Feb 8, 2007 12:59 pm (#2270 of 2970)
Thanks for that,SE Jones.That makes perfect sense.Still..I wonder who was in the room? If Snape is innocent,which I am trying most desperately to prove to myself,I'd like to say it was the see all,know all,Dumbledore.



Wanda - Feb 12, 2007 1:56 pm (#2271 of 2970)
On another completely different subject...

It's been bugging me for ages that Ron says near the beginning of PS/SS 'There wasn't a witch or wizard that went bad who wasn't in Slytherin'. Then only a couple of years later, they're all talking about Sirius Back who famously killed a wizard and 12 muggles (or however many it was). He was bad (so everyone thought) but he wasn't in Slytherin.

Hmmm...



Choices - Feb 12, 2007 7:35 pm (#2272 of 2970)
But, Sirius wasn't really bad, was he? He didn't actually go bad, people just assumed he did.



Mediwitch - Feb 12, 2007 8:32 pm (#2273 of 2970)
Choices, I think you are right about Sirius, but Pettigrew was probably a Gryffindor who did go bad. I think Hagrid was overgeneralizing.



haymoni - Feb 13, 2007 5:51 am (#2274 of 2970)
And it sounds like the rest of the Blacks were in Slytherin so maybe folks didn't find it strange - apple not falling far from the tree, so to speak.



MickeyCee3948 - Feb 13, 2007 10:07 am (#2275 of 2970)
Maybe more of Ron's foretelling that in the end Peter will do something that has a redeeming value.

Mickey



juliebug - Feb 13, 2007 11:22 am (#2276 of 2970)
I always thought it was a bit odd that an eleven year old boy (even a well connected one) could possibly know the history of every criminal in the wizarding world. It sounds like the kind of hyperbolic statement a young person might make and helps set the stage for the reader's understanding of why Harry and Ron hate Draco and everything he stands for.



Choices - Feb 13, 2007 12:32 pm (#2277 of 2970)
Juliebug - "I always thought it was a bit odd that an eleven year old boy (even a well connected one) could possibly know the history of every criminal in the wizarding world."

It was Ron that says it in the movie, but if I'm not mistaken, Hagrid says it in the book.



juliebug - Feb 13, 2007 1:22 pm (#2278 of 2970)
My mistake Choices, you were right about the source of the quote. I still stand behind my reasoning about why the statement was made.



wynnleaf - Feb 13, 2007 1:41 pm (#2279 of 2970)
It's easy to think of Hagrid making hyperbolic comments. If anyone should remember that a DE came from Gryffindor, it would have been Hagrid. After all, at the time he thought the DE was Sirius, and he was the one that saw Sirius the day after the Potter's deaths.

I really think this was simply an example of how so many non-Slytherins view Slytherins. This general assumption that most Slytherins are bad. Even Hagrid had it.

Just remember, JKR told Melissa and Emerson that all Slytherins weren't bad, but that it's natural we should think so because she, the author has been leading us that way, only really exposing us to Draco and Co. and their interactions with Harry.



verde823 - Feb 16, 2007 7:07 am (#2280 of 2970)
This may have been discussed before, but I can't figure it out. In the Voldemort/Harry prophecy the last bit is "...for neither can live while the other survives.". What exactly does this mean? Wasn't Harry living while Voldemort "surviving"? Am I missing something?



Steve Newton - Feb 16, 2007 7:48 am (#2281 of 2970)
I don't claim to be an expert on prophecies but the ones that I have heard of no matter what you figure, you were wrong. Only in retrospect will it be clear. In the above it is not even clear who the other is. I don't think that it is Harry or Voldemort.



T Vrana - Feb 16, 2007 9:49 am (#2282 of 2970)
Well, they are both living, even if they are not 'the other'. I take it to mean they can't truly live, without looking over their shoulders waiting to be 'vanquished' or 'killed', as long as the other survives.

Steve, who do you think the mysterious other is?



Mattew Bates - Feb 16, 2007 9:58 am (#2283 of 2970)
Madame Pomfrey, at your invitation, I'm adding my two knuts to a couple of your ideas.

post #2257 - The initial curse made Harry's broom buck, and the counter-curse was trying to still the broom. Perhaps the counter-curse being used after the curse ended made the Nimbus rigid in the air, making it difficult to climb upon. Harry only regained enough control of the broom to bring it under himself after the counter-curse ended.

post #2267 - especially a weak minded wizard like Quirrell?

Quirrell was weak, but Quirrellmort was Quirrell strengthened by Voldey. I think Voldey could set up a "firewall" of sorts to keep legellimency from detecting his presence. Besides, nobody performed legellimency on the back of Quirrell's head.

Also, I think the open doors were an example of a rookie JKR being less subtle with her plot devices, and the second open door was a classic red herring. While someone else could have been in the room, I think Quirrell was protesting having to drink unicorn blood again ("No -- no -- not again, please --" and "All right -- all right --"), and that's not the sort of conversation that wants or needs a third party.



TheSaint - Feb 16, 2007 10:05 am (#2284 of 2970)
MB - I think Quirrell was protesting having to drink unicorn blood again ("No -- no -- not again, please --" and "All right -- all right --"), and that's not the sort of conversation that wants or needs a third party.

I tended to think it was Vapormort needing to climb back into Quirrell's mind. I don't think he stayed with Quirrell always, no way Volde would have stayed in Quirrel while he was doing such mundane things as teaching. (The thought of Volde teaching any of the classes terrifies me!) I think he moved in and out of him as needed.



Choices - Feb 16, 2007 10:42 am (#2285 of 2970)
That's an interesting thought Saint. I like the idea that Voldemort may have moved in and out of Quirrell.



Steve Newton - Feb 16, 2007 10:51 am (#2286 of 2970)
T Vrana, my first two guesses would be Neville and Peter. I can't really make a strong case for anyone, though.



me and my shadow 813 - Feb 16, 2007 2:18 pm (#2287 of 2970)
Sorry to interrupt. I'm not sure where to research this -- at the end of GoF Fudge says to DD, "You'll forgive me, Dumbledore, but I've heard of a curse scar acting as an alarm bell before..."

Is this the source of "Recurring Boy Who Lived" theory? I'm not fond of that theory but the above quote seems like a huge statement - am I missing something obvious?



Mediwitch - Feb 16, 2007 3:42 pm (#2288 of 2970)
Hi MAMS813!That was an error in the original edition. According to the Lex, it was corrected by Bloomsbury and Raincoast, but as of Spring 2005 had not yet been changed by Scholastic. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]



S.E. Jones - Feb 16, 2007 11:44 pm (#2289 of 2970)
TheSaint --I tended to think it was Vapormort needing to climb back into Quirrell's mind. I don't think he stayed with Quirrell always, no way Volde would have stayed in Quirrel while he was doing such mundane things as teaching.--

Quirrell does make the comment "he is with me wherever I go..." which makes it sound like Voldemort was in his head 24/7. This comment is also in answer to Harry asking if Voldemort was with Quirrell when Harry heard him sobbing in the empty classroom which supports that Voldemort may have been present all the time (which is also the reason Quirrell wheres the turban all the time).



MickeyCee3948 - Feb 17, 2007 9:58 am (#2290 of 2970)
and the reason that it smells of rotten garlic all the time. Of, course he could have just needed a bath in the prefects tub.

Mickey



Madame Pomfrey - Feb 17, 2007 9:27 pm (#2291 of 2970)
Thanks,Mattew. I think everyone is pretty much in agreement on that one. I think it must be true that the door was left uninvestigated by Harry so that we would assume Snape was there.



me and my shadow 813 - Feb 18, 2007 3:02 pm (#2292 of 2970)
Thanks, Mediwitch. I was reading an old Raincoast book, so that explains it...



Die Zimtzicke - Feb 20, 2007 10:19 am (#2293 of 2970)
Borrowing this idea from the Snape thread, where it' been discussed in several forms by too many people to acknowledge here...you all know who you are and have my deepest thanks:

If Voldemort did want Snape to have the DADA job, since he couldn't have it himself, why didn't he lift the curse on it when Snape got it? Or is it a coincidence that Snape only stayed in the job one year?



Mattew Bates - Feb 20, 2007 10:46 am (#2294 of 2970)
Well, if Voldemort had to be at the school to cast the curse, he would probably have to make an appearance to lift it.



me and my shadow 813 - Feb 20, 2007 4:08 pm (#2295 of 2970)
Die Z., I think it's possible - although a moot point - that Vold would have lifted the curse for Severus to stay on. I'm sure it would also have been in Vold's interest to keep Slughorn at Hogwarts rather than successfully hiding in Muggle homes. After all, Hogwarts doesn't seem to be as safe as Slughorn keeps insisting it is. Which is another *odd* thing -- why didn't DE's go after Slughorn when they broke into the school?



haymoni - Feb 20, 2007 4:29 pm (#2296 of 2970)
Maybe he isn't as useful to them as he thinks he would be.



aasa - Mar 2, 2007 12:50 pm (#2297 of 2970)
I have something that I?d like your opinion on. I did not really know where to post it but Haymoni suggested this thread and the headline is of course perfect; it is odd!

It's about the sign outside of the Hog's Head. The two times JKR mentions the Hog's Heads exterior she tells us that the sign creaks in the wind (HP & the Order of the Phoenix chapter 16, page 299 British edition and HP & the Half-Blood Prince chapter 25, page 517, also British edition).

The second time she even tells us that there is no wind! This could not be a coincidence. In my opinion this is not just her describing what the bar looks like from the outside, this must mean something - mustn?t it?. The problem is that I can?t figure out what?

Since the barman (and the owner?) is Dumbledore's brother I see him as an ally and although we are not told in so many words, at least he appears on the photograph Moody shows Harry of the ?original Order of the Phoenix?. Could it be some sort of ?all clear? sign? A signal from Aberforth to his brother?

Does anyone have some clever thoughts?



azi - Mar 2, 2007 1:13 pm (#2298 of 2970)
I think it's just moving through magic. Movies/books often have dodgy, isolated places which are shown through creaking signs or window shutters etc. Maybe Aberforth chooses to have his pub marketed as such?

However, it is interesting JKR mentions the pub so often. Aberforth is likely to be introduced in the next book, so maybe she's setting it up?



Choices - Mar 2, 2007 5:42 pm (#2299 of 2970)
That's an interesting observation and idea AASA. I have noted that part about "no wind" myself and wondered about it. I like your idea of it being possibly an "all clear" sign or maybe it's a warning?



aasa - Mar 3, 2007 1:18 am (#2300 of 2970)
azi I agree with you; I think we will see more of Aberforth before the saga is over, there is "too little said too often" about him just to let him disappear without us having a chance to get to know him - at least a little more.

... and turned up a side-street at the top of which stood a small inn. A battered wooden sign hung from a rusty bracket over the door, with a picture on it of a wild boar's severed head, leaking blood on the white cloth around it. The sign creaked in the wind as they approached. (HP & the Order of the Phoenix chapter 16, page 299 British edition)

A minute later they turned the corner into the side street where the Hog's Head's sign creaked a little, though there was no breeze. In contrast to the Three Broomsticks, the pub appeared to be completely empty. (HP & the Half-Blood Prince chapter 25, page 517, also British edition)

Choises Yes, I just can't believe that JKR would use this kind of description twice if it wasn't some sort of hint or introduction to what's to come. I mean we all know that she puts clues out all over the place and that a lot of them are red herrings, but to me the use of the word "appear empty" makes my suspicions even stronger... it's just so obviously odd!

The first reason one thinks of for Dumbledore to disapparate from outside the Hog's Head is that the street is empty, but could there be another reason? (Or maybe it just a sort of surveillance camera Aberforth has installed in case his customers gets violent...)

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Columbine Fairy - Mar 10, 2007 4:00 am (#2301 of 2970)
Hi guys!

I have recently re-read GoF and something is really bothering me. At the rebirthing ceremony, when Voldemort is explaining how he got his body back, he says:

"I was willing to embrace mortal life again, before chasing immortal. I set my sights lower... I would settle for my old body back again, and my old strength."

The problem I have with this is, if he had his horcruxes, he would still have been immortal anyway, wouldn't he? My only thought is that he is talking about making his physical form indestructable, but I'm still troubled about this particular claim.

Any thoughts?



frogface - Mar 10, 2007 4:52 am (#2302 of 2970)
Well techincally Voldemort still isn't immortal - even with the Horcruxes - because he can still be killed. It just takes a more roundabout approach. I believe he aims eventually to have an immortalilty that doesn't rely on any kind of object that can be destoryed - which both the Horcruxes and presumably the Philosopher's Stone can be.



azi - Mar 10, 2007 4:56 am (#2303 of 2970)
Also, the Death Eaters shouldn't know about his Horcruxes and so they don't know he's already immortal (of sorts). Voldemort decided to omit that little fact in his brilliantly told story.



Columbine Fairy - Mar 10, 2007 5:07 am (#2304 of 2970)
Thats true. Although they would have had an idea about the immortality anyway because he said "I, who have gone further than any other on the path to immortality", or something like that. But I feel a bit better now :-)



rambkowalczyk - Mar 10, 2007 7:56 am (#2305 of 2970)
Maybe Voldemort thinks that if he has seven horcruxes, then he is immortal. Nothing can kill him. IT's never been said whether it is objectively true or not.



Laura W - Mar 10, 2007 10:29 am (#2306 of 2970)
I think LV believes that making his Horcruxes made him immortal because, at that point in GoF, he does not expect anybody else to find out about the Horcruxes. Therefore, he always has them to fall back on. It's what saved him when his AK on Harry rebounded back on to him. That's why he was so angry at Lucius when he was responsible for the diary (one soul bit) being destroyed. In LV's mind, his chances at immortality went from seven to six when the diary was destroyed. But still pretty good odds.

Of course, we know - because DD told Harry and us - that if all the soul bits are destroyed, ending with the one in LVs body, Tom Riddle *will* die. But if he (LV) thinks his little Horcrux theory is something he alone knows about, there would be no worries about this ever happening.

I think.

Laura



totyle - Mar 22, 2007 7:51 pm (#2307 of 2970)
This is something that I found odd - Why do the Dursleys bother to come and pick Harry up at the end of every school year at Kings Cross station? I am assuming they do come every year even though in books 2 and 6 its not mentioned specifically. In the rest of the books its mentioned either Uncle Vernon or the three Dursleys waiting for Harry. I would have thought they'd have been more than capable of telling Harry to find his own way back. I mean do they care at all whether he makes it back to Privet Drive? They don't..so why this generous hearted gesture..its out of their way as in PS/SS they say the only reason they're sending Harry is because they had to make the trip to London to get rid of Dudley's tail.

Unless of course they don't want 'weirdo' Harry making a grand entrance at Privet Drive and arousing the curiosity of the neighbours so they prefer to smuggle him in as unobstrusively as possible?



Luna Logic - Mar 23, 2007 12:16 am (#2308 of 2970)
Could it be a part of the "protection pact" accepted by Petunia? When Harry is with the Dursley, the blood's protection is activated. If he had to go alone to Privet Drive, he would be vulnerable ?



Laura W - Mar 23, 2007 12:26 am (#2309 of 2970)
Don't think so, Luna. The Dursleys would still be living at 4PD and would be there when he returned every June 30. Therefore, the protection would still take effect. Even when the Dursleys physically leave the house and take Dudley to the zoo or swimming - treats Harry was denied for his whole childhood until that fateful zoo trip one month before his eleventh birthday -, and put Harry with Mrs. Figg, the protection was in effect because he is living at 4PD for part of every year.

Good thought though.

I think totyle is right. I think Vernon and Petunia would rather the neighbours see their nephew return from St. Brutus' Secure Centre for Incurably Criminal Boys - which is where everybody has been told he attends - in the family car. More normal: which is the god to which the Dursleys bow down. Normalcy, that is. (As we are told in practically every book, especially PS).

Laura



Luna Logic - Mar 23, 2007 12:45 am (#2310 of 2970)
Yes, Laura, your arguments support the explanation of Totyle, which you have named: Normalcy... the Dursley's first motivation in life! They would be ready to take troubles for it...



totyle - Mar 23, 2007 12:52 am (#2311 of 2970)
Can you imagine the scene at 4PD as the day to pick up Harry approaches?! I can imagine Vernon completely stressed out and muttering regarding that dratted boy and Petunia looking grim faced but resigned to it..."We have to pick up the boy, Vernon. The neighbours will talk. They'll ask awkward questions, they'll want to know where he's turned up from if he strolls down the drive with his trunk and owl"...!!



Luna Logic - Mar 23, 2007 2:01 am (#2312 of 2970)
totyle: they'll want to know where he's turned up from if he strolls down the drive with his trunk and owl"...!! All Privet Drive inhabitants at their windows, speaking of that event during months !



MickeyCee3948 - Mar 23, 2007 10:30 am (#2313 of 2970)
Even worse for the Dursley's would be the "Wizard Bus" pulling up to #4 to drop Harry off. The neighbors would have something to talk about for months.

Mickey



It was the sudden stop that killed him (sob) - Mar 25, 2007 4:15 pm (#2314 of 2970)
You know how there's all kinds of weird things with watches, well I don't know if someone already said this but, hermione mentions several times that electronic devises don't work around hogwarts. Like when harry thought malfoy was speaking into a walki-talki(I think that's how you would spell it). So it seems to me that watches shouldn't work around hogwarts at all, and we know they run on batteries because harrys watch stopped working after swimming in the lake in the second task. If I'm wrong or something contradicts this please tell me.



Steve Newton - Mar 25, 2007 5:19 pm (#2315 of 2970)
Well, you know, some watches do not need batteries. I don't think that folks having wind ups would appear to be that unusual.



It was the sudden stop that killed him (sob) - Mar 25, 2007 5:23 pm (#2316 of 2970)
Yea your probably right I was kind of having one of those moments.



Die Zimtzicke - Mar 26, 2007 7:17 am (#2317 of 2970)
Can Muggles see the bus? I thought they could not. If Harry came by bus, wouldn't he just appear in the street?



Laura W - Mar 26, 2007 8:17 am (#2318 of 2970)
Yeah, that would really make the Dursley's day!

Lady from next door: " Petunia, dear. The oddest thing happened. I was looking out my window on June 30, just admiring the lawn and the new flowers I had planted when, all of a sudden, as if out of nowhere, that black-haired boy who lives at your house was standing on the sidewalk with a large trunk and - I swear this is true! - a white owl in a cage. One second he wasn't there and the next he was. It was just like magic. Oh, what am I saying? Magic? How silly of me. But I swear it's true! I think I must be cracking up."

LW



totyle - Apr 3, 2007 12:55 am (#2319 of 2970)
Magic-why do they use them at times and not at other times?

Examples : They can use magic to conjure up things from thin air- DD conjures up chairs, drinks etc. Mcgonagall conjures up a fan out of thin air to waft Nearly headless Nick after he's been petrified.

But then..we also have references where they don't..DD was said to have been coming down for a cup of hot chocolate when he stumbled onto petrified Colin Creevey. We also have the instance where Snape needs to ask Peter Pettigrew to serve the wine in Spinner's End chapter. Also DD doesnt at the first instance use magic to pull the stopper of the crystal bottle with a memory in HBP. Why didnt they use magic then?

Is it just by choice..rather odd I thought.

These are just random thoughts of magic and non magic usage instances...



rambkowalczyk - Apr 3, 2007 3:22 am (#2320 of 2970)
Maybe there are two types of conjuring out of thin air which would mean the abjects only stay for a limited time or the items are stored somewhere else in which case conjuring is like Accio except it appears to Apparate.



juliebug - Apr 3, 2007 4:50 am (#2321 of 2970)
Totyle, these are just my thoughts, no canon to back them up. Dumbledore probably could have made hot chocolate appear in his office from the kitchen. Professor McGonnagall was able to do this for Harry and Ron with an unending plate of sandwiches and pumpkin juice in CoS. I think, Dumbledore probably just wanted to step out of his office for a little while and take a walk. It seems to me that if he was in his office at that late hour and wanted hot chocolate, he probably wanted a break from what he was working on as well.

As for the Snape and Wormtail example, I don't think Snape needed to have Wormtail bring him anything. I think Snape made Wormtail bring in the wine as a way to alert Narcissa and Bellatrix to Wormtail's presence. It was also a means for Snape to demean Wormtail in front of his guests (which I think was an added bonus for Snape.)



T Vrana - Apr 3, 2007 8:56 am (#2322 of 2970)
Perhaps, just as in the Muggle world, some are better at 'cooking' than others. So, while DD could conjure up a hot chocolate, perhaps it just isn't as yummy as what the house elves can do.

Magic, like cooking, does have its subtleties.



Choices - Apr 3, 2007 12:15 pm (#2323 of 2970)
I was reading the scene in front of the Mirror of Erised between Harry, Quirrell and Voldemort. Not once is it mentioned that any of them have a wand. Quirrell conjures ropes out of thin air to bind Harry with a wave of his hand. I thought that was odd - Harry doesn't draw his wand when he enters and Quirrell never uses a wand. From the time the kids drop down the trapdoor, Hermione is the only one who uses her wand. She conjures blue fire and tries alohomora unsuccessfully.



totyle - Apr 3, 2007 8:05 pm (#2324 of 2970)
juliebug-It seems to me that if he was in his office at that late hour and wanted hot chocolate, he probably wanted a break from what he was working on as well.

Perhaps youre right-! He could have been going to have that cup of hot chocolate with Pomfrey..(wink!) Isnt there something in the shipping thread about those two! And in the last chapter in CoS, DD does recommend a large steaming cup of hot chocolate for Ginny saying Mdm Pomfrey would still be awake. Which shows, perhaps he was in a habit of having cosy after hours chit chats over hot chocolate brewed by Pomfrey! ..hmm..wonder what goes on after the kids go to bed at Hogwarts!! heheehee



journeymom - Apr 4, 2007 11:48 am (#2325 of 2970)
Doesn't Poppy give Albus a pair of earmuffs and he blushes?



Laura W - Apr 4, 2007 1:20 pm (#2326 of 2970)
Sort of. In PS, when Minerva tells him that he is too noble to do Dark Magic even though he is powerful enough, he replies that he hasn't blushed so much since Madam Pomfrey complimented him on his new earmuffs. (awwww ... how sweet!)

Laura



vega ome - May 6, 2007 6:27 pm (#2327 of 2970)
Howdy All,

Not sure if this has been asked before but here goes. Why in the world hasnt' Harry asked anyone what his parents did for a living?

It strikes me as odd when he is talking to Lupin in POA that he does not ask him. There are other times when he could of asked Sirius, DD or McG.

If it was me I would of asked Hagrid the same night he told Harry he was a wizzard.

Loose lips sink ship I suppose.

v/r

Mike



Choices - May 7, 2007 8:47 am (#2328 of 2970)
This question has been asked many times and we have made many comments about Harry's lack of curiosity. Of course, it is a literary thing - JKR doesn't want us to know the answers until she is ready to reveal them to us in the big finale of the series, so she simply has Harry be blissfully ignorant and unconcerned.....until she is ready to give us answers.



MickeyCee3948 - May 7, 2007 4:24 pm (#2329 of 2970)
Harry was never allowed to be curious around the Dursley's. He was never allowed to ask questions and was never told why things were being done in a particular way.

You have to be raised in an atmosphere where answers are freely given(even if reluctantly)or you will never learn to ask questions.

Mickey



zelmia - May 8, 2007 4:38 pm (#2330 of 2970)
Harry doesn't really ask any questions that, in real life, would probably be the first thing on a person's mind. He'd do well as a character on Lost .

But it's true: being raised in an environment where those sorts of questions about his parents not only were not answered, but likely elicited the threat of (if not actual) physical harm would accustom Harry to simply not wondering about those kinds of things any more.



Madame Pomfrey - May 13, 2007 6:10 am (#2331 of 2970)
I agree with Mickey and Zelmia. The Dursley's,over the years,have drilled it in his head not to ask questions,Especially questions concerning his parents.Plus,apparently JKR did not want us readers to know anything.



Choices - May 13, 2007 11:23 am (#2332 of 2970)
I agree with Madame Pomfrey - if you reveal information through the opinions of your main character and you don't want your readers to know certain things, then you make your main character curiously un-curious. He remains ignorant because he doesn't ask questions and so does the reader.



Pamzter - May 13, 2007 2:46 pm (#2333 of 2970)
I guess I also attributed part of it to the "guy" vs. "girl" thing - men liking the overview and women liking the details. Had James and Lily had been my parents, by now I would have known not only what they did for a living and every detail of how they died, but where they went on their first date, who my mother's girlfriends were, the kind of flowers she carried at her wedding, etc. etc.



Choices - May 13, 2007 4:11 pm (#2334 of 2970)
I think that could be part of it too, Pamzter. I know I am an insufferable WANT to know it all (how many times have I heard how curiosity killed the cat) and I would have found out every single detail about my parents that I could.



Vox Gerbilis - May 15, 2007 5:01 pm (#2335 of 2970)
Something that strikes me as "odd" is the rather Philistine nature of the Wizarding World. Other than Nicolas Flamel's enthusiasm for opera, the portraits at Hogwarts, and popular music on the Wizard Wireless, none of the characters have any interest in anything artistic or literary. Are there no wizard novelists or playwrights? Does anyone read just for pleasure (other than Hermione and Hogwarts, a History)? Are wizards too insular to take an interest in muggle arts or literature?



Choices - May 15, 2007 6:22 pm (#2336 of 2970)
I think the evidence of wizard involvement in the arts and literature is seen throughout the books. The Hogwarts library holds thousands of books, Spinner's End has lots of books, Molly Weasley has books and likes to listen to music on the WWN, and 12 Grimmauld Place has books. Look at the number of paintings and portraits at Hogwarts, and the MOM has a lovely fountain with statues in it. Dumbledore loves music and says it is a magic beyond all they do at Hogwarts. He does complain that he receives more books as gifts and would really like some warm, wooly socks. We know there is a harp at Hogwarts and Fluffy seemed to enjoy it's melodies, and Hagrid gave a flute to Harry one Christmas. Dobby painted Harry a picture and presented it to him at Christmas. Art and music is all around, but granted, the major characters do not seem interested in it. In their defence, they are a bit preoccupied with Voldemort and the kids also have their studies to think about. I think the arts and literature are in evidence, but to be fair, they are not exactly crucial to the plot and therefore do not play a big role in the world JKR has created.



Madame Pomfrey - May 16, 2007 7:53 am (#2337 of 2970)
Percy read "Prefects who gained power" or something like that. Is not magic an art within itself? I agree with Choices.



Felix Felicis - May 21, 2007 12:41 am (#2338 of 2970)
Sorry if this has already been mentioned but whilst re-reading CoS, a paragraph from page 174 really jumped out at me as strange and I would REALLY appreciate some other opinions???

Harry couldn?t explain, even to himself, why he didn?t just throw Riddle?s diary away. The fact that even though he knew the diary was blank, he kept absent-mindedly picking it up and turning the pages, as though it was a story he wanted to finish. And while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T M Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he?d had when he was very small, and half- forgotten. But this was absurd, He?d never had friends before Hogwarts, Dudley made sure of that.

WHY would Harry feel as though Riddle was a friend, half-forgotten? At this point in the book, Harry hasn?t yet discovered that the diary writes back, so it seems a bit strange that he should feel this way about an old blank diary. Yes, the circumstances around the diary are mysterious, but this still doesn?t warrant why Harry should feel like the name Riddle means something to him, and that Riddle was a friend.

Yes, Ron knows the name Riddle from the Trophy room and tells Harry this, but Harry has no reason to feel like HE knows Riddle

Now, I?m not sure whether I think Harry is a Horcrux, and I?m not sure if I want him to be one BUT, this really stayed in my mind throughout the book and I kept going back to page 174 to read it again. In my view, the above paragraph would make sense if Harry WAS a Horcrux

Could it be that Harry felt like Riddle was a friend half-forgotten because of the 1/7th of Voldemorts soul inside him somehow connected to the diary horcrux?? Do the different parts of the soul connect in a spiritual way when they are near to each other??

It seems as though the bit of LV soul inside Harry somehow recognised the other part of soul in the diary?a friend half-forgotten?.hmmm very strange

I have no-one to discuss this with and would appreciate your thoughts on this as its been bugging me for the last week

Cheers!



Mrs Brisbee - May 21, 2007 2:47 am (#2339 of 2970)
Hi, Felix Felicis. It is possible that it was simply an enchantment on the diary to keep whomsoever possessed it at the time from selling it, throwing it away, or chucking it into a fire. It is also possible that it's two soulbits recognizing each other. Unfortunately, we don't have any other examples of Harry coming in contact with another Horcrux to compare it to. It seems to me that the soulbit I think is in Harry and the main piece of soul in Voldemort often like to try to get together, so maybe there is something there. Lily's protection complicates matters, though, so it is hard to tell.



Madame Pomfrey - May 21, 2007 7:27 am (#2340 of 2970)
I agree with Mrs.Brisbee. Ginny apparently had a hard time getting rid of the diary too.So,there could have been a spell on it.I prefer to think that Harry's feelings about "A friend half-forgotten" is because of the soul bit lodged in his head.The fact that Harry is able to share Voldemorts emotions and talents is proof,to me, that Harry carries around a part of Voldemorts soul.How else could this phenomenon be explained? Also,Dumbledore's statement about Voldemorts encasing a horcrux into something that can think for itself(Nagini) is another clue.



Die Zimtzicke - May 21, 2007 8:06 am (#2341 of 2970)
Harry could be a horcrux, I'm not sure if he is, but he could be. I"d like that, but I'm not sure about it. But Riddle had already put a bit of himself in Harry before Harry had that feeling he knew Riddle, horcrux or not. So that explains a lot. Not only why Harry feels that Riddle is familiar to him, but it explains why Trelawney looked at him a saw a boy who had suffered losses early in life and was born in midwinter. THAT could have been Riddle she was seeing, as far as I'm concerned.



zelmia - May 21, 2007 12:25 pm (#2342 of 2970)
I don't think that passage is meant to be taken literally. The Author is simply trying to emphasize the hold the Diary already seemed to have on Harry, even before he knew what actual powers it contained.



haymoni - May 21, 2007 5:52 pm (#2343 of 2970)
I'm stickin' with the Harry the Horcrux Theory.



Thom Matheson - May 23, 2007 7:05 pm (#2344 of 2970)
I was going over some things at work, testing for apptitude towards sales with prospects when someting struck me.

I'll try to explain. Researchers named Merril and Reid discovered that ALL people fit basically into one of four personality types; Drivers, Analyticals, Expressives, and Amiables.

Drivers are very quick, are only concerned with facts and do not waste time with trivial matters. They are very quick to make decisions. (example Military officers)

Analyticals have a very huge desire for information. Upon receivings it they then want more informations. They are very methodical, and are therefore not quick to pull the trigger. (example Accountants, Airline Pilots)

Expressives are very talkative, use their hands to talk, very bright and quick witted. They see the big picture and are happy to tell you about it. (example Most singers and actors, usually the best sales people).

Aimiables are very ready to make things nice. They fear turmoil, and desire all to get along. They work hard at trying to please everyone, and will go out of their way to do so.

All that being said, here was my thought. The 4 houses are right along the same path. Drivers(Slytherins) fit like a glove. Anayliticals are Ravenclaw, Expressives are Griffindor, and of course Amiables are Hufflepuff.

It is uncanny how much the houses fit.



Mrs Brisbee - May 24, 2007 4:56 am (#2345 of 2970)
All that being said, here was my thought. The 4 houses are right along the same path. Drivers(Slytherins) fit like a glove. Anayliticals are Ravenclaw, Expressives are Griffindor, and of course Amiables are Hufflepuff.

I'm afraid I don't agree. The Sorting Hat tells us what criteria it uses to put each student into the Houses, and they don't really match up with the four personality types as you've outlines them.

Maybe if you could elaborate, with several examples for each House?



Thom Matheson - May 24, 2007 7:22 am (#2346 of 2970)
Sorry it was late. Drivers are focused, and will seek out information that they can use. They do not generally have a great deal of patience, and are very self motivated. They are more happy with just the answer, rather then being given examples to further explain something. Snape is a good example of a Driver. Drivers think fast, and make decisions fast. They are a direct opposite of an Amiable.

Expressives are the chance takers. They communicate well with most groups, and are willing to go out on a limb where others would not. James and Sirius were Expressives.

Anayliticals, are bright, and full of the need to learn. They don't want answers given to them, as they would rather learn them themselves. It sometimes is difficult for them to lead, as the need to gather further info and make sure that they are right, before executing a decision. I can't think of a good Ravenclaw example.

Amiables pursue the team concept with everything. As Drivers prefer to go it alone, Amiables would rather be in a group. They are generally not leaders.

Drivers prefer to go alone, so as to see the glory for themselves. Expressives are ready to go at the drop of a hat. They never met a cause that they didn't like. Analyticals need to gather facts first before doing anything Amiables, will do whatever the crowd wants. Whatever pleases everyone else, pleases Amiables.

I see Slytherins much like Drivers, Expressives much like Griffindors, Analyticals like Ravinclaws, and Amiables like Hufflepuff.

None of these groups are better or worse then any other. In fact all of us fit into these groups. I wish I could express it better. If you google "drivers expressives" you will find Meril Reid. It interesting stuff.



Mrs Brisbee - May 24, 2007 7:38 am (#2347 of 2970)
Thank you for elaborating. Some of it fits. Some doesn't. Hufflepuff looks like the worst fit, since they are supposed to favor being just and fair. Just going along with the crowd isn't necessarily going to lead to fairness or justice. The only two adult Hufflepuffs we know are Tonks, an Auror, and Sprout, Head of Hufflepuff House. Sprout certainly had her own opinion about whether or not Hogwarts should reopen. It was McGonagall, the "Expressive", who was for just going along with what the crowd wanted. Tonks herself says she misbehaved while a student at Hogwarts. I don't think she is so easily pegged.

One problem I see is that we have lots of Slytherins and Gryffindors to compare to this model, but very few representatives from the other Houses.



Choices - Jun 2, 2007 8:50 am (#2348 of 2970)
I'm rereading POA and it occurred to me last night that the DADA teacher covers Red Caps, Hinkypunks, Grindylows, etc. in his/her classes. I wonder why the Care of Magical Creatures teacher doesn't handle these creatures? I suppose they are somewhat "dark", but are they any more dark than Thestrals or Hippogriffs? They are magical creatures, so I would think it would fall to Hagrid to teach the kids about them and how to handle them. There are far more dangerous things that the DADA teacher needs to cover and prepare the kids to handle. Just a thought.....



zelmia - Jun 2, 2007 9:49 am (#2349 of 2970)
Good point, Choices. But it's probably because most wizards wouldn't really be "caring for" such creatures. I always thought of CoMC as a sort of an introduction to Wizard Zoology/Veterinary Medicine. We don't know how the course was taught or what creatures are introduced before Hagrid becomes the teacher, of course. But we know the students were required to have Fantastic Beasts as their text. We also know they talked about Salamanders because the Twins brought one back to the Common Room and fed it a firecracker. Because of this, I always imagined that there were probably units on a lot of the creatures in FB, especially Kneazels, that Jack Russell with two tails, Auguries... Many of the sort of creatures that students might actually come into contact with on a fairly regular basis.

What recently occured to me (as I was watching a replay of England v. Brazil) is that Oliver Wood says that Charlie Weasley "could have played for England". So are the professional Quidditch players drafted straight out of school? If so, seems like the playing career must be quite lengthy. There are very few Wizard schools (apparently) and apparently no lower division. I'm sure there must be walk on players who didn't go to Hogwarts, but still. Seems like a VERY small pool of recruits.



Choices - Jun 4, 2007 4:26 pm (#2350 of 2970)
In reading POA last night, I came across something I thought was odd. After Sirius Black breaks into the castle and slashes the Fat Lady's painting, Harry hears one of the kids make the comment that Sirius Black can transform himself into a flowering shrub. Why a flowering shrub of all things? It immediately made me think of the agapanthus flourishing by Petunia's front door. Hmmmmmm?

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Steve Newton - Jun 4, 2007 5:15 pm (#2351 of 2970)
You must mean that there is such a thing as a florimagus.



Choices - Jun 4, 2007 5:43 pm (#2352 of 2970)
LOL Steve - makes you wonder who all those rose bushes were outside the castle at the Yule Ball. ;-)



Robert Dierken - Jun 5, 2007 5:38 pm (#2353 of 2970)
The red roses were Lancastrians and the white ones were Yorkists, of course.



Choices - Jun 13, 2007 5:35 pm (#2354 of 2970)
I find it interesting (odd?) that there are three characters who use the term "silly girl" in the books.

Tom Riddle refers to Ginny as a silly little girl in the COS. Voldemort refers to Lily as a silly girl when he tells her to step aside. Snape in the Shrieking Shack refers to Hermione as a silly girl.

I don't know if this means anything at all, but it's interesting.



zelmia - Jun 13, 2007 8:09 pm (#2355 of 2970)
I have always read "silly girl" as a sort of colloquial insult. "Silly" as in "stupid". I have often heard these used together, in fact. As in "silly, stupid girl!"



Choices - Jun 14, 2007 9:20 am (#2356 of 2970)
I did make a mistake - in the Shrieking Shack, Snape does say "stupid girl", not "silly girl". I believe there is another place in the books where Snape does use silly girl, I just can't find it right now. I do remember reading it and thinking at the time that it was the same thing Voldemort had called Lily.



haymoni - Jun 14, 2007 5:52 pm (#2357 of 2970)
Is it in the 1st Potions class or am I movie-contaminated?



Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 14, 2007 6:39 pm (#2358 of 2970)
Rita Skeeter, uses the term silly girl in GoF to describe Hermione.



Choices - Jun 15, 2007 8:28 am (#2359 of 2970)
You're right - make that four characters.



Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 15, 2007 9:00 am (#2360 of 2970)
There is a slight variation on the stupid girl comment in HBP chapter four Slughorn calls Umbridge a stupid woman and goes on to say that he never liked her after Dumbledore tells Slughorn that Umbridge ran afoul of the centaur herd.



zelmia - Jun 16, 2007 9:08 pm (#2361 of 2970)
It always strikes me as odd that Tonks fixes Harry's broken nose (after rescuing him from the train, in HBP), but doesn't bother to clean the blood off his face. It's not until he seens Hermione that he even realises his face is still covered with blood.



Luna Logic - Jun 16, 2007 11:28 pm (#2362 of 2970)
Maybe just because Tonks has problems with cleaning ! (see her first scene in Harry's room in OoP)



zelmia - Jun 17, 2007 12:31 am (#2363 of 2970)
She couldn't at least say something to him? "Oy, Harry. You might wanna wipe that, mate". Although, to be fair: Harry can feel the blood pouring out of his nose as he's laying there paralyzed, but he can't feel the dried, sticky blood on his face? That is at least equally odd, in my opinion.



Choices - Jun 17, 2007 8:34 am (#2364 of 2970)
I think Hermione has more "motherly" concern for Harry than does Tonks. Hermione does what Molly would do - clean up one of her kids when they have a messy face. Remember Molly trying to clean the dirt from Ron's nose in the first book? Then Hermione comes along on the train and notices the dirt also.



totyle - Jun 17, 2007 8:22 pm (#2365 of 2970)
Is this a difference between the UK and US books? My HBP has Slughorn calling Umbridge 'Idiotic woman' not Stupid.

Not an important point just thought I'd mention it.



Die Zimtzicke - Jun 18, 2007 5:56 pm (#2366 of 2970)
If Tonks had cleaned up the blood, would Hermione have shown him that much concern? Maybe it's a plot device.



zelmia - Jun 25, 2007 10:16 am (#2367 of 2970)
What kind of sprouts need peeling? And why do they eat so many of them at the Burrow? I'm thinking of specifically in HBP at Christmas where Harry and Ron were set the task of peeling "a mountain of sprouts". I have cut the bottoms from fresh brussel sprouts but I would hardly refer to that as "peeling".

One thing I do like about this scene is that it shows that Ginny is not the only one who is told to help out around the house. The boys too are given chores, which I think is good for young readers, especially, to see.



Soul Search - Jun 25, 2007 11:29 am (#2368 of 2970)
zelmia,

"... Ginny is not the only one who is told to help out around the house. The boys too are given chores."

I disagree. Boys sould not be given householdy chores. Beneath them.



zelmia - Jun 25, 2007 2:13 pm (#2369 of 2970)
Soul Search, I sincerely hope that's either because a) you are a teenage boy who can relate to that scene, and hates being given similar chores in real life; or b) because you are being facetious.



Choices - Jun 25, 2007 5:54 pm (#2370 of 2970)
I find it odd that Soul Search did not have Levicorpus used on him/her (?) immediately for that remark. I think hanging from the ceiling of the nearest dungeon would not be out of order. ;-) LOL



MickeyCee3948 - Jun 25, 2007 6:42 pm (#2371 of 2970)
Hey, when I read the comment by Soul Search, I immediately started ducking in anticipation of the onslaught. Definitely fighting words.

Mickey



painting sheila - Jun 25, 2007 6:59 pm (#2372 of 2970)
Where is Filch and his dungeon and chains when we need him?!



Jenniffler - Jun 25, 2007 7:05 pm (#2373 of 2970)
I gently remind everyone to take posts contrary to your own beliefs with a grain of salt. With that said, Soul Search, I hope you are glad I am not on a salt restricted diet, because I had to season those words quite a lot before I could swallow them.



zelmia - Jun 25, 2007 8:07 pm (#2374 of 2970)
Fair enough. But there are "contrary to your own beliefs" and then there are "-ist" posts. I will choose to believe that SS's post was meant to be tongue-in-cheek as opposed to the latter catagory, which I'm afraid I would not be able to ignore from anyone.

That said, can anyone think of a type of sprout that needs peeled?



totyle - Jun 25, 2007 11:44 pm (#2375 of 2970)
Zelmia, I can only recall ever eating sprouts once in my lifetime as it isnt commonly gotten over here but I was intrigued and did some googling: Apparently peeling sprouts incredibly enhances the flavour-and from what I could read its one of the things people prepare for Christmas dinners etc..ie they stuff the Turkey, peel brussel sprouts, buy cranberry sauce & make bread sauce(yumm)..



journeymom - Jun 26, 2007 12:16 am (#2376 of 2970)
I peel brussel sprouts! I cut the ends off and depending on how big and mature the heads are, I peel a layer or two off. Removes the bitterness. Very tasty served with chopped bacon and a squeeze of lemon.

Besides, which sounds better, "The boys were set the task of peeling a mountain of sprouts", or, "The boys were set the task of cutting the ends off a mountain of sprouts"?



zelmia - Jun 26, 2007 3:28 am (#2377 of 2970)
Journeymom, I do exactly the same. But I never would have called that "peeling" sprouts before Harry Potter.



Soul Search - Jun 26, 2007 5:12 am (#2378 of 2970)
zelmia,

"... Ginny is not the only one who is told to help out around the house. The boys too are given chores."

You have to admit, your comment invited my tongue-in-cheek response. I couldn't resist. I knew it would be like poking a sleeping dragon, but I didn't realize I was poking a whole nest of dragons. Choices, hanging from the ceiling, really. painting sheila, chains? Don't I get to express my opinion?

I am so far from being a teenager I was a kid when my statement would have been considered acceptable ... even correct. I tried to take Home EC (wanted to learn how to cook) in high school, and was told it wasn't allowed! It turned out the Home EC teacher didn't want boys in her class. So there.

And, there is nothing anyone can do to brussel sprouts to make them edible. Why bother.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jun 26, 2007 6:23 am (#2379 of 2970)
"Don't I get to express my opinion?" Of course you do! And we our's, with a vengeance! Reminds me, hubby baked a cake last night while I was at work that is to die for! Plus did dishes, washed clothes, took care of critters, typical handyman...

...toddles off chuckling to self...



Jenniffler - Jun 26, 2007 6:30 am (#2380 of 2970)
Brussels sprouts are best with Louisiana Hot Sauce(the tabasco peppers in vinegar, not the Tabasco brand kind) and lots of real butter.

I can't fault Molly for cooking them. Moms usually take special pains to come up with pretty dishes for the official holiday meal. Paring down the sprouts must have been a good way to keep certain teenagers out of trouble while Mooly put the finishing touches on all her specialities.



Besides, can you think a more pretty vegetable to end up all over Percy the Prig?

TBE-That was funny!- You have a gem of a spouse.



Die Zimtzicke - Jun 26, 2007 6:37 am (#2381 of 2970)
Like lettuce, if you peel off the loose outside layers of sprouts, you wind up with a better piece of produce, that is much less bitter.

By the way, my husband buys jewelry, sends flowers and cleans bathrooms. I will never let him go. He's the perfect combination of traditonal and modern.

LOL!



painting sheila - Jun 26, 2007 7:21 am (#2382 of 2970)
Soul Search - Okay . . maybe the chains were a bit extreme . . . MAYBE!

I always thought the "sprouts" were potatoes. I know some people call them "spuds" and just thought it was another take on that.

I love brussels sprouts! Or I used to. I haven't had them in awhile. I like cabbage too, though, and they seem to taste a lot alike to me.



rambkowalczyk - Jun 26, 2007 9:20 am (#2383 of 2970)
Is it possible that sprouts are another word for potatos? I remember reading a cookbook and wondering what aubergines and courgettes were. (eggplants and Zucchini or summer squash)



legolas returns - Jun 26, 2007 9:46 am (#2384 of 2970)
Sprouts are little green marbles that grow on a stalk-They belong to brassica family.



journeymom - Jun 26, 2007 9:46 am (#2385 of 2970)
Dang it all, I really wish we could ask JKR things like this. "Were you referring to those little cabbages or potatoes? Did you use cloth diapers or disposables? Do you let your kids watch tv? Is Snape a good guy or bad guy? How do you get rid of grass stains? What's your favorite chicken casserole recipe?"



painting sheila - Jun 26, 2007 12:30 pm (#2386 of 2970)


journeymom - You crack me up! I love the way you snuck the Snape question in there. Ha!



Madame Pomfrey - Jun 26, 2007 12:48 pm (#2387 of 2970)
And, there is nothing anyone can do to brussel sprouts to make them edible. Why bother? LoL, SoulSearch!I have to agree.

Now that was sly,Journeymom!

Zelmia,I was so glad you asked the question because I couldn't imagine any sprouts that were peeled,like beansprouts.



Choices - Jun 26, 2007 12:57 pm (#2388 of 2970)
I can't remember who, but someone on another thread told us that Brussel Sprouts were a very popular holiday dish in England. I must confess I do not care for them.



Luna Logic - Jun 26, 2007 11:26 pm (#2389 of 2970)
Thanks, all. That's why I love this forum: where else could take place a serious (and hot...) discussion about sprouts?

Are these sprouts brussels sprouts ? Obviously we need a traditional English citizen to help in the matter. In France, brussels sprouts were rather popular, as winter food, in schools (they were awful with the "school cooking") - and, also, served with roast chicken or turkey, along with chestnuts. But children didn't like them, so nowadays they seem to be less and less used.

We didn't use the word "peeling" about them, anyway. I will try next time !



azi - Jun 27, 2007 3:18 am (#2390 of 2970)
Sprouts are a traditional part of Christmas dinner in the UK. Yes, they are peeled by taking the outer layer off and chopping the end. Sprouts are in no way potatoes.



zelmia - Jun 27, 2007 9:18 pm (#2391 of 2970)
Okay here's something else: In HBP Harry, Ron and Ginny use the Flue Network to get from the Burrow to Hogwarts (just this once). Only Molly is there to see them off because everyone else is at work. This description makes it sound like the kids are returning to school in the morning - or at least in the middle of the day. Yet when the three arrive in McGonagall's office, it's nearly dark.
Now, is this because they left much later than the earlier description makes it sound like? Because the description of it being nearly dark when they step out of the fireplace in McGonagall's office makes it sound like it took all day for them to get there.

Also, how did Hermione and others get back? Was her fireplace connected as well? What about people who don't have a fireplace? How did they get back? The Hogwarts Express?



totyle - Jun 27, 2007 9:49 pm (#2392 of 2970)
This is Chapter 17 isnt it? A Sluggish memory...it says they lined up late afternoon at the kitchen fireside. Late afternoon could have been 2-4pm?, based on that time of year-early January it would have been dark in the UK by about 430pmish.

It says The Ministry had arranged it as a one off for the students-I'd always thought it was specially for Harry and co but Im not sure now that youve raised it whether it was for all or just them.



Jenniffler - Jun 28, 2007 5:37 am (#2393 of 2970)
Zelmia, The lighting issue can be explained by geography. Hogwarts is surrounded by mountains. The Burrow has been described as set in gentle rolling hills. (This could be movie contamination!)Any way, Suppose the sun is beginning to set before everyone in the Weasley house is ready. They have regretted rushing in the past! Now into the Burrow's fireplace and out McGonagal's and poof! The sun's in the same position, but a huge Northwest-positioned mountain is covering up most of the light. It is now nearly dark as the days after mid winter tend to be shorter.

As for the train, I'm sure that it is always implied that is how the majority of Christmas vacationers travel back and forth to school every time.



zelmia - Jun 28, 2007 10:39 am (#2394 of 2970)
Yes, totyle, thanks. I knew I was missing some tiny detail and you've pointed it out. Thanks!
And Jenniffler (love that name) that makes perfect sense as well. I'm from the northwest, which is on almost exactly the same latitude as most of the UK. At that time of year, the sun goes down at about 4:30 in the afternoon and it is almost completely dark by 5:00.



painting sheila - Jun 28, 2007 5:04 pm (#2395 of 2970)
I just read the Spinner's End chapter in OoP and was struck by how human Snape is to Narcissa. He Looks her in the eye. He touches her on the arm, and then she kisses his hands while crying over them.

I thought of him as a cold fish all along. Did anyone else think this is strange? Could he and Narcissa have some sort of history?



rambkowalczyk - Jun 28, 2007 6:25 pm (#2396 of 2970)
I had remarked on this soon after book 6. I saw it as proof that he cares about other people that he might not just be in it for himself. He only sneers at Bella not Narcissa. If he was a cold hearted Death Eater I wouldn't expect him to act this way.



zelmia - Jun 28, 2007 9:32 pm (#2397 of 2970)
Spinner's End is the only time we have ever seen Snape interact with people other than students, people he thinks of as "inferior" (i.e. Sirius) or people to whom he offers deference (Dumbledore, McGonagall). In fact, that chapter is the only time we see Snape's interaction completely unfiltered (as opposed to being seen through Harry's eyes).
This may very well be his normal demeanor amongst those he considers his equals. I did not find this peculiar, even from Snape, as many people have a "work" personality and a "private" one. That is, they behave much more formally at work than they would if you were to meet them socially. Though we clearly see the usual Snape when he addresses Wormtail, even in front of the Black Sisters.



totyle - Jun 28, 2007 9:53 pm (#2398 of 2970)
Sheila, I felt there was something really odd about Snape in that chapter too. On first read I really believed everything he said and that that was his confession but since then others' theories has had me changing camps quite often. Why does he help Narcissa-compassion isnt his second nature, unless Snape and Narcissa have some prior link we dont know about.

ramb :If he was a cold hearted Death Eater I wouldn't expect him to act this way.

Well, even DEs get married and have children so they must have some feelings for their own kind dont you think?



Choices - Jun 29, 2007 8:41 am (#2399 of 2970)
Maybe he just has a lot of sympathy for a mother who cares for her only son. Maybe she reminds him of his own mum?



painting sheila - Jun 29, 2007 9:16 am (#2400 of 2970)
Okay - and "Spinner's End" I know it means the place but do you think it is a play on words. A web/lie Snape has been spinning is finally coming to an end?

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Choices - Jun 29, 2007 9:26 am (#2401 of 2970)
Very possible, but I tend to think it could be a hint as to what Snape's Patronus is - a spider. Also the riddle in the maze that Harry had to solve - I think it is also a hint about Snape.



painting sheila - Jun 29, 2007 10:10 am (#2402 of 2970)
ANother reason for Ron to hate Snape. Can you imagine the look on Ron's face if Snape ever throws his patronus? HA!



Paul Potter - Jun 29, 2007 10:33 am (#2403 of 2970)
I was just wondering does any one think it is odd the number of people in the books that have the same first letter of both forename and surname and is there any significance in it.



Jenniffler - Jun 29, 2007 10:48 am (#2404 of 2970)
Yes Paul, not only is it a mnemonic device to help us remember the name, but has some symbolism rooted in Celtic myth, alchemical storytelling traditions and the meaning of runes. Each of these topics has a thread devoted to studying it. You are welcome to join the discussions!



journeymom - Jun 29, 2007 12:27 pm (#2405 of 2970)
Sheila, there's no doubt in my mind that "Spinner's End" is a play on words, and it has multiple meanings. One is your interpretation. In that chapter Snape's ability to spin tales ended. The HP story has been full of spider imagery, so if Snape has a spider patronus, it will be no surprise to anybody here at the Lexicon! So you and Choices are both right.

Poor Ron, indeed!

Severus Snape, Salazar Slytherin.



Choices - Jun 29, 2007 1:13 pm (#2406 of 2970)
Journeymom - "In that chapter Snape's ability to spin tales ended."

I'm not sure I understand - in what way did this end? You don't think he is still "spinning tales" in his dealings with Voldemort and the DE's?



journeymom - Jun 29, 2007 2:19 pm (#2407 of 2970)
You're right, Choices! I didn't think that through. When Snape made the UV with Narcissa, it marked the beginning of the end of his double agent job.



Choices - Jun 29, 2007 5:00 pm (#2408 of 2970)
But isn't he still acting the double agent? He (I believe) is on Dumbledore's side, but Voldemort thinks he is on his side. Snape is still playing a double roll - he is spying on Voldemort for Dumbledore, and Voldemort thinks he is spying on Dumbledore for him. It seems to me his double role has not come close to ending yet. With the death of Dumbledore, Snape appears to be in even deeper than before.

Maybe I am just confunded and don't understand what you are saying.



journeymom - Jun 29, 2007 6:23 pm (#2409 of 2970)
Fine, Choices! [hands on hips]

But something metaphorical ended in that chapter!



rambkowalczyk - Jun 29, 2007 6:24 pm (#2410 of 2970)
ramb :If he was a cold hearted Death Eater I wouldn't expect him to act this way.

Well, even DEs get married and have children so they must have some feelings for their own kind don't you think? totyle

true. but the way Snape acted towards Bella (and the way she acted towards him) was expected. Maybe I should say I wasn't surprised to see them make snide remarks to each other. Since Snape is a half-blood it would make sense that the Black sisters look down on Snape. Clearly Bella does but Narcissa doesn't. Furthermore not only does Narcissa seem to treat him with respect now that he seems to be Voldemort's favorite but chances are Narcissa respected him before he was Voldemort's favorite.

Snape could have made Narcissa do anything in return for helping Draco, but he asks for nothing. Is this a Slytherin way to act? Snape could have made some vaguely insulting remark about how Lucius isn't so high and mighty now is he? But he didn't.

To say that Death Eaters have feelings for their own kind may be somewhat true but it can greatly interfere with their pursuit of power. Note how Bella doesn't seem to care that Draco's life is in danger.



Choices - Jun 30, 2007 8:30 am (#2411 of 2970)
Narcissa may love Draco and care about him, but have we ever seen Lucius say a kind word to his only son? I don't recall any.



journeymom - Jun 30, 2007 10:48 am (#2412 of 2970)
In the movies so far they've made Lucius even hostile to Draco. I can't remember where I learned it, but I believe Jason Isaacs had a hand in that. In the film CoS during the Quidditch match with the rogue bludger, when Draco crashes to the ground the camera flashes to Lucius, who looks disgusted and disappointed, while Snape, sitting next to him, looks concerned.



zelmia - Jun 30, 2007 12:02 pm (#2413 of 2970)
Yes, don't let the movie contamination interpret the Malfoy Father-Son relationship. There is nothing in the text to indicate that Lucius is any less doting than Narcissa.



Luna Logic - Jun 30, 2007 1:19 pm (#2414 of 2970)
But yes, there is a scene, in CoS, chapter 4,which takes place in Diagon Alley, in the Borgin and Burke shop. But I have only my French book, not the English one, and I cannot quote!
Lucius seems disappointed by his son, he speaks to Drago in a rather humiliating way (IMO).



journeymom - Jun 30, 2007 3:43 pm (#2415 of 2970)
I found it, in the US edition of CoS, "At Fourish and Blotts", p.50 through 53.

Draco whines (whinges?), Lucius acts imperious. He's certainly not supportive. He's disappointed that Draco was beat in every exam by that Hermione Granger, a girl and a muggle-born. Lucius is not affectionate, in any sense of the word, with Draco.




rambkowalczyk - Jun 30, 2007 8:28 pm (#2416 of 2970)
I interpreted Lucius' words and actions at Borgin and Burkes in COS differently. (Right now I don't remember what he said to Draco in Flourish and Blotts--he was mainly insulting the Weasleys wasn't he). Anyway I don't have my book so my answer might vary a little once I get a chance to look up the passages. But in Borgin and Burkes Harry was hiding in the Vanishing cabinet and listening to Draco whine about how he wanted the Hand of Glory. Although Lucius was cold and stern, I got the impression that he expected better things of Draco than being a thief.

Lucius is not affectionate, in any sense of the word, with Draco. Journeymom

Lucius definitely isn't affectionate in that scene but in OOP, Draco is angry with Harry because his father is in prison and Draco calls his father dad. I think if Lucius was always cold and distant he would be called father, not dad.



zelmia - Jun 30, 2007 8:33 pm (#2417 of 2970)
Hm. I have always read that chapter quite differently. Draco doesn't seem the least bit intimidated by his father, who does indeed repeatedly express disappointment in Draco's grades, but who also has promised to buy Draco a racing broom in spite of them. Draco simply makes excuses, complains that it's Harry's fault and apparently puts a bug in his father's ear about wanting to be on the House Quidditch team. At least, that is certainly what happens later.
To me this comes across as a discussion father and son have already had several times. And to me, Draco responds to his dad as someone who has heard it all before, who is ignoring the ongoing nagging, rather than someone who fears making his father angry. Draco even largely ignores Lucius's opening interdiction of "touch nothing".

Speaking of Borgin and Burkes, during this scene Harry hides in, what is apparenlty, one of the Vanishing Cabinets. Yet he doesn't disappear or anything. Why?

Also, as he walks back out toward Diagon Alley, he passes a stall selling "poisonous candles". What could these do? Poison the air?

EDIT: Oh! Cross-posted with Ramb, there. And I agree with you completely - especially about the end of OP.



TheSaint - Jun 30, 2007 10:59 pm (#2418 of 2970)
zelmia - Speaking of Borgin and Burkes, during this scene Harry hides in, what is apparenlty, one of the Vanishing Cabinets. Yet he doesn't disappear or anything. Why?

I always thought it was because he never closed the door all the way.



Choices - Jul 1, 2007 10:21 am (#2419 of 2970)
Maybe that or perhaps it works sort of like traveling by Floo Powder - you have to close the door and someone has to state a destination.



Mediwitch - Jul 4, 2007 4:17 pm (#2420 of 2970)
In GoF, Harry wears his watch in the lake during the second task, and it stops working. Yet there are several references to him looking at it later on in the book, forgetting that it wasn't working and stating that he was still wearing it out of habit. This seems strange to me, like perhaps the brief mentions sprinkled throughout the book were supposed to be clues to *something*, but I don't know what. Maybe whatever it was got lost in Jo's famous re-write of GoF. Any ideas?



Hagsquid - Jul 4, 2007 5:49 pm (#2421 of 2970)
Well... where did he get the watch from exactly?

Not likely from his pure-blood father, who would have had a magical watch--or do wizards use muggle watches?

Wow Mediwitch... very pondering indeed.



totyle - Jul 4, 2007 6:28 pm (#2422 of 2970)
Mediwitch, there's a lot of odd things about Harry with regards to his possessions..despite his galleons he still wears Dudders' hand me downs and has to get people to stock him with food during summer break..I just dont get it why he doesnt go on a shopping spree with all those galleons...I know it wouldnt make such a good story line but I'd have loved to see just a line of something like..the next time he was at the Burrow, Mrs Weasley commented on the state of his socks, jeans and T shirts and offered to go shop for him at the muggle store she buys ordinary muggle clothes for her sons. He also stocked up on snacks/sweets from Hogsmeade to last him all throughout summer break.

I know totally uninteresting and pointless but it would have lessened somewhat my grieving over Harry's state of clothes/things and hunger pangs.

Sorry..not exactly in answer to your question, I know!



Mediwitch - Jul 4, 2007 6:40 pm (#2423 of 2970)
LOL, totyle, I always wondered why Harry didn't just buy some new clothes as well! The watch thing just seemed so...odd. Why did Jo keep mentioning it?



Choices - Jul 4, 2007 6:45 pm (#2424 of 2970)
Totyle, I've also thought that same thing. Why doesn't Harry exchange some galleons at Gringott's for Muggle money and buy himself some nice clothes and snacks? Guess that would be too easy and we wouldn't have as much sympathy for him. LOL



zelmia - Jul 4, 2007 7:16 pm (#2425 of 2970)
Does Harry still wear Dudley's hand-me-downs after book 1? I don't recall it being mentioned. I always assumed that once he had access to his Gringotts account, buying new clothes etc was exactly what he did.



Hagsquid - Jul 4, 2007 7:19 pm (#2426 of 2970)
Well, at the start of Book Five, his clothes are dirty, his shirt is baggy, and his trainers are peeling away from the uppers... so... Unless he bought second hand used muggle clothes that were too big for him, I assume he's still wearing Duddly's handmedowns. Wink

Maybe it's just a "not wanting to waste money" thing with Harry. He's fairly frugal when it comes to spending money on himself, but less so when buying presents for Ron.



totyle - Jul 4, 2007 7:28 pm (#2427 of 2970)
Oh Zelmia-he still does! In GoF(p 35 uk ed) he's said to be dressed in Dudleys sweatshirt. In OotP(p 83 uk ed) he's said to be wearing one of Dudley's jeans. Then there's the Uncle Vernon's socks he inherits where he keeps the sneakoscope and later gives Dobby as a present!



painting sheila - Jul 4, 2007 7:49 pm (#2428 of 2970)
Does he know he can exchange money? He may not even think that far after having so little for so long.

the food thing - I don't get it. . . . .he does have that loose floor board to stash stuff in. Hmmmmmmmmm?



Hoot Owl - Jul 4, 2007 9:17 pm (#2429 of 2970)
Harry believes he only has money in the Wizarding World. I have been wondering when someone will inform him that if Gringotts can change Pounds for Galleons, they can do the reverse. Hermione would be the most likely.

Harry does know that the Dursleys would try to get any money he has access to. I expect that to come up in DH now that they know about #12 Grimould Place and his gold.



Mediwitch - Jul 5, 2007 5:03 am (#2430 of 2970)
Harry does know that Gringott's will exchange money - he saw Hermione's parents doing just that in (I think) CoS. Knowing Harry, he just forgot about it.



painting sheila - Jul 5, 2007 7:03 am (#2431 of 2970)
They already know about the house and the gold he inherited from Sirius. When Dumbledore came to collect him at the start of HBP, Dumbledore says some thing about it.

Plus, I OotP he vows to put in 10 galleons in the fountain if he is cleared - and does. So he has gold on him sometimes - right?

Maybe he just isn't in the habit to spending. I here that can happen. :-)



Hagsquid - Jul 5, 2007 10:00 am (#2432 of 2970)
That's the direction that I'm leaning, he's just frugal. Somewhere it mentions that he hasn't mentioned the gold in his vault to the Dursleys because he "doesn't think their horror of anything magical extends to a large pile of gold." This is directly after stating that Harry only has money in the wizarding world, and that you can't spend knuts and sickles and galleons in a muggle shop.

Later in CoS, Arthur Weasley is talking to Hermoine's parents about changing in muggle money. And we know that Arthur somehow gets his hands on some muggle money, because he uses it throughout the series. Once to pay for the tent space rental, and once for the underground when he takes Harry for his disciplinary board.

Yup. I think Harry is just frugal. I know at one point he'd considered buying himself a firebolt, but didn't want to be selfish.



zelmia - Jul 5, 2007 11:48 am (#2433 of 2970)
There is also the fact that since PA, Harry hasn't actually spent a lot of time in Diagon Alley. In GF Molly got his school supplies and his gold for him (though we still don't understand how she was able to do this). In OP wasn't it Bill, a bank employee, who got Harry's money out for him? So it wasn't until HBP that Harry even made a trip to Diagon Alley, and then he spent almost the entire time in the Twins's shop.



Choices - Jul 5, 2007 1:57 pm (#2434 of 2970)
I always find it odd about the meat pies that Mrs. Weasley sends to Harry over the summer - especially the summer Dudley was on the diet. Harry hides them under the loose floorboard in his bedroom. I don't know about England, but if I hid meat pies under my floorboards in about two days or less, I'd have lethal meat pies. It can't be magic that makes them last so long - Harry can't use magic out of school. Then again, maybe Mrs. Weasley charms them to last a long time before she sends them. Just strikes me as odd how long they stay good.



Mediwitch - Jul 5, 2007 2:05 pm (#2435 of 2970)
LOL Choices - I thought the same thing when I was reading OoP last night!



Steve Newton - Jul 5, 2007 3:48 pm (#2436 of 2970)
You've, obviously, never known college males.



Jenniffler - Jul 5, 2007 4:15 pm (#2437 of 2970)
Steve, are you referring to the Iron-stomach/Block-head mentality that will get a guy to eat questionable food? What a wide generalization of male behavior!



Choices - Jul 6, 2007 11:16 am (#2438 of 2970)
I know what you mean Steve. My ex-husband comes over and will eat stuff out of the back of my refrigerator that should have been discarded days ago. LOL It hasn't killed him yet.....don't ask me if that is a good thing. Depends on my mood. ;-)



Mediwitch - Jul 8, 2007 4:47 pm (#2439 of 2970)
In OoP, when Sturgis Podmore is arrested the Daily Prophet gives his address as "number two, Laburnum Gardens, Clapham". When Stan Shunpike is arrested in HBP, the Prophet states he was arrested "...after a raid on his Clapham home." I thought that was curious, but it's probably a Mark Evans, isn't it?



painting sheila - Jul 9, 2007 8:43 pm (#2440 of 2970)
Mediwitch - I don't get it . . . ?



Steve Newton - Jul 10, 2007 3:40 am (#2441 of 2970)
Well, there is a suggestion of a connection between Podmore and Shunpike. I don't remember enough about Podmore to draw any conclusions. Doesn't the head (ahem) of the Headless Hunt have one of his names as Podmore. (Sir Properly Decapitated Podmore.)



Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 10, 2007 8:53 am (#2442 of 2970)
I think what Mediwitch is referring to is the fact that Sturgis Podmore's flat is located at Number 2 Laburnum Gardens in Clapham and Stan Shunpike was arrested in Clapham.

It is interestinng that two wrongly accused men are specifically mentioned as being arrested in Clapham?



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 10, 2007 11:28 am (#2443 of 2970)
Clap'm behind bars?



legolas returns - Jul 10, 2007 11:39 am (#2444 of 2970)
LOL



Luna Logic - Jul 10, 2007 12:48 pm (#2445 of 2970)
Edited by Jul 10, 2007 2:24 pm
Steve Newton Doesn't the head (ahem) of the Headless Hunt have one of his names as Podmore. (Sir Properly Decapitated Podmore.)
The head (ahem) ( LOL) of the Headless Hunt is Sir Patrick Delaney-Podmore (The Deathday Party, p. 136 Bloomsbury)
But I prefer your your version of the name!
And good luck to connect that name or that fact to Clapham... (Clap - ham ?)
---------------
I wanted to ask a question about something odd in CoS. It's about werewolves.
In chapter 17, Journal-Tom, speaking of Hagrid, says : "big, blundering Hagrid, in trouble every other week, trying to raise werewolves cubs under his bed" (Bloomsbury p. 335). But werewolves cubs are human babies, aren't they?



Mediwitch - Jul 10, 2007 1:56 pm (#2446 of 2970)
Nathan, you got what I meant, and explained it much more clearly than I managed to do. (But LOL TBE, that was clever!)



zelmia - Jul 10, 2007 3:04 pm (#2447 of 2970)
Luna, JKR said in an interview that Riddle was lying when he said that about Hagrid. I'm afraid I'm not sure which of the scores of interviews that was in, but I'm sure one of these fine, more technically-inclined folks will be able to confirm that.



Choices - Jul 10, 2007 4:59 pm (#2448 of 2970)
I remember that quote Zelmia, but don't remember where I read it. If you think about it though, Tom had to be lying because werewolves do not have babies. Werewolves are humans who have been bitten by a werewolf. In their human state they may reproduce (I think), but they do not produce young in their werewolf form. Werewolves are not born, they are bitten.



Luna Logic - Jul 11, 2007 1:46 am (#2449 of 2970)
Thanks, Zelmia and Choices, I didn't knew about this JKR quote. There are no such creatures as babies werewolves (except bitten babies... )



zelmia - Jul 11, 2007 3:17 pm (#2450 of 2970)
In OoP, when Sturgis Podmore is arrested...
Stugis Podmore was part of the Advance Guard, who came to collect Harry from Privet Drive. I don't remember what happens after he is arrested. Is he still in Azkaban?

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