Controversy Originating from "Tell Us About Yourself'

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Controversy Originating from "Tell Us About Yourself'

Post  Lady Arabella on Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:01 pm

The following is an archive of material originally posted on the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum, hosted by World Crossing, which ceased oeprations on April 15, 2011


Last edited by Lady Arabella on Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Lady Arabella on Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:03 pm

Controversy Originating from "Tell About Yourself" Posts

Edited Jul 24, 2006 1:05 am

This thread is established to keep the “Tell About Yourself” (new) within the one of the opening post's parameters:
Make sure this thread doesn't get cluttered with chitchat! It should be used only for new members to introduce themselves and tell us something about themselves.

I reserve the right to edit comments and move posts from the "Tell About Yourself" thread to this thread.

I may post other guidelines in the future to the use of this thread.


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Kip Carter - Jul 11, 2006 7:06 pm (#1 of 108)

davon made the following statement as part of his Jul 11, 2006 3:30 pm post: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

. . “I do, however, insist on using UK English, I will not write in the language of the Americans. I have nothing against the people, but I see no reason to adopt their style of language - even when 95% of the net population seem to be moving that way.”

Shortly afterwards, three posts were added to the Tell About Yourself thread concerning this statement. I have moved those three posts to this thread. The discussion can continue here, if needed.

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Solitaire - Jul 11, 2006 5:56 pm (#2 of 108)

I'm curious, Jonathan. What do you consider "the language of the Americans"? I ask because I am an American, and I, too, attempt to produce well-constructed, properly punctuated sentences.

Solitaire

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virginiaelizabeth - Jul 11, 2006 6:05 pm (#3 of 108)

Yes I am curious about that too Johnathan. I don't find that there is a big difference between the two styles, nor do I find one more proper than the other, but merely different words for the same thing, such as mom and mum. ::looks curious as well::

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geauxtigers - Jul 11, 2006 6:09 pm (#4 of 108)

Yes, there are a few differences, but it is after all the same language, with some different prounuciations. It is interesting too, if slang is what you are calling 'American', I'm shocked to find it’s not in the rest of the world... I'm only slightly offended by what you've said, I've heard worse, but that is not following too closely with "do unto others.." ect. But you might offend others...

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 11, 2006 7:37 pm (#5 of 108)

Davon, I too find your post intriguing to the extent that I also find some variation exist between the Queen's English, and the English spoken in the other nation-states of the Commonwealth as well as that of the United States.

I realize that my ability to structure sentences in a coherent manner, despite my inherent limitations, in the fields of both grammar and punctuation. I make the attempt to do so to the best of my ability.

It is my hope that in the fullness of time that despite the limitations I possess linguistically, that a sense of comity may develop because, even though I may not have the skill of Abraham Stoker, or Lord Tennyson I trust that you will find that each of us possesses a keen thoughtful intellect.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 11, 2006 8:00 pm (#6 of 108)

I am tolerant of others, and show due respect and consideration in all my posts. My usual response when I come across those who act contrary to this is to ignore the inflammatory post, or if possible delete it. I have been an internet user for long enough to know never to feed the trolls.

Hi Jonathan! My first thought when reading this statement was that you may mistakenly come to the conclusion that someone is a 'troll' when it may actually be a sheep in wolf's clothing and never give the person a proper chance. To not allow a person to clarify his/her viewpoint from the way you interpret a post could leave you missing out on some pertinent constructive criticism. Furthermore, with true respect for others comes the belief that everyone's opinion deserves a fair shake, even if you may find it offensive or otherwise inaccurate. In that case, once again, the chance for the other to further define him/her self is the true act of courtesy.

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Solitaire - Jul 11, 2006 8:07 pm (#7 of 108)

geauxtigers: I'm only slightly offended by what you've said, I've heard worse, but that is not following too closely with "do unto others.."

It is possible, Jonathan, that you meant no offense to the many Americans who participate in this forum. It is wise, however, to remember that we do not have access to your tone of voice and facial expressions here on the forum. I must agree with geauxtigers that the tone of your comments seems a bit condescending. Whatever your experience with "American English" may be, please remember that many Americans are well-educated and articulate, and that correct grammar and sentence structure are just as important to us as they are to any Englishman. **written with no animosity and a on my face**

Solitaire

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Finn BV - Jul 11, 2006 8:38 pm (#8 of 108)

It is possible, of course, that Jonathan was simply referring to the difference of spelling we Americans use and not the style of punctuation; that that was instead referring to netspeak and other types of improper "languages."

I suppose I'll admit to using an "LOL" at times and throw in a rare "ROFL" sometimes because there are some posts which are quite funny, and there is no other way to express your laughter except the good ol' "laughing out loud." However, I think the occasional sprinkling of these words adds a touch of flavor to our posts.

Jonathan, I know no party takes any great offense, and that none was intended. We hope you enjoy yourself on the Forum here. Welcome!

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Chemyst - Jul 11, 2006 10:04 pm (#9 of 108)

Hi, davon.
I agree with Finn when he said, "I think the occasional sprinkling of these words adds a touch of flavor to our posts." Although in your case, you are perfectly welcome to call it a touch of flavour and to move the quotation marks to the other side of the period.
Variant language usage and spellings are part of the fun charm of posting here, and sooner or later you'll find someone joking about how "America and England are two nations divided by a common language."
...and then we wave to Oscar Wilde's Estate.

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Lina - Jul 11, 2006 11:06 pm (#10 of 108)

Well, maybe Jonathan didn't like the spellchecker on this site that spellchecks according to the American and not the British English. This is the only forum site that I know about that uses this feature and I, as a non English speaking person, find it to be very handy even though it lets me write "wander" in the moment that I mean "wonder". It is placed on the American server and I find it normal to spellcheck the American English.

I must say that I hope that he is about to read this thread.

Jonathan, one of the sentences in your post is “I am tolerant of others, and show due respect and consideration in all my posts.” I hope that would include being tolerant to people who use the American English too. All members here are tolerant and that is what makes this Forum so nice. We are from all over the world. I can not always tell if something is American or British English, as much as I don't expect you to tell the difference between Croatian and Serbian. Our English sometimes isn't any proper English but we can still communicate and enjoy each other's company. I hope you will find this a pleasant place where you will enjoy all the HP theories and add some of yours. Looking forward to meet you on the threads or in the chat room.

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Regan of Gong - Jul 12, 2006 1:58 am (#11 of 108)

Don't worry...your english need not be of that high a standard...I'm sure we'll love you anyway...no need to prove yourself with qualifications.

Hoping to see you on threads

Regan

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Amilia Smith - Jul 12, 2006 2:15 am (#12 of 108)

Well, maybe Jonathan didn't like the spellchecker on this site that spellchecks according to the American and not the British English.

Ah, the beautiful thing about this spellchecker, though, is that it lets you add words. So it will only stop you the first time you write "humour," and after that will let it go by with no problems. Of course, this will likely be a bit of a pain to start with, but shouldn't be too big of a deal.

Welcome, Jonathan. I hope you enjoy yourself here. We really don't have much of a troll problem here. I can't remember the last time we had one. Not sure if this is because our excellent hosts take care of things before I see them or if we have just been lucky not to attract many. Either way, this is a special place on the internet.

Mills.

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Laura W - Jul 12, 2006 2:52 am (#13 of 108)
Edited by Kip Carter Jul 12, 2006 3:17 am

Jonathan:

There are several of us here who are neither American nor British. I am one. I can only imagine that, in your original post, what you were saying is that you will not use the American spelling in your messages to the Lexicon Forum. (If I am wrong about the point you were making, please forgive me.) That's fine. Nobody asked you to or expects you to. The UK members of this Forum use British spelling and expressions, as do I coming from a Commonwealth country. Naturally, the Americans do use the spelling and wording they were brought up with and educated in. As it should be.

I quite agree with you about Netspeak and, if you read the Lexicon posting rules again, you will see it is definitely frowned on; and heartily discouraged. I applaud that. It is *one* of the reasons I chose this particular HP site to be part of.

Over time you will, I trust, come to appreciate the calibre of discussion here - even when it gets somewhat heated, which it most certainly does. If you enjoy this, then you are in the right place. And some of our most articulate contributors live in the United States (funny spelling and all; just joking guys!). As a non-American, I can say that without prejudice.

This is a place where intelligent, passionate, practically-obsessive devotees of the canon that is the Harry Potter books get together. They are as young as 14 and as old as ... well. They come from all ethnic and economic backgrounds, family situations, nations, professions and levels of education. And I, for one, am grateful for *all* of them - even the ones I fervently disagree with on a regular basis. (There are also plenty of Forum Hosts to keep them - us - in line, which is undoubtedly a good thing.)

I really think you are worrying too much. Just join in and enjoy. Trust me, you will know soon enough if this is the right HP home for you. I hope it is, but that is for you to decide of course.

Laura

Added Comment by Kip Carter: Laura, thank you for the nice comments; however I must correct you on one small error. Our members are as young as 10 (ten) with some of them below 14 adding very excellent posts. We also have a membership where English is not their primary language. We are also very tolerant of grammar and spelling if the participant falls in either of those two categories; however we do encourage everyone to use proper English, whether it be British or American, and that is a hard thing to control regardless of how many excellent Hosts we have. Certain threads are given more liberal handling on posts than other threads, namely our Chat Thread, where personal feelings are allowed and conveyed with all types of entries, including abbreviations that are unique to that thread only.

I also would like to thank each of you for the way that you expressed yourself and your concerns. I felt that Jonathan should really understand that we have a very diverse group, all of who enjoy and relax within the "family atmosphere" available here on our Forums. Enough said!


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Magic Words - Jul 12, 2006 6:04 am (#14 of 108)

Guys? I think we scared him away.

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haymoni - Jul 12, 2006 6:06 am (#15 of 108)

I'm American and I like putting my quotation marks on the other side of the period.

Period.

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Choices - Jul 12, 2006 11:59 am (#16 of 108)

Davon - "I am tolerant of others, and show due respect and consideration in all my posts. My usual response when I come across those who act contrary to this is to ignore the inflammatory post, or if possible delete it."

Since I can't delete, I shall ignore.

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azi - Jul 13, 2006 4:28 am (#17 of 108)

I remember that when I visited a school in Germany a few years ago, the students first learnt UK English and then moved onto American English and the differences between the two types. I thought this was a very interesting idea! The way I see it, you can speak/type either and be perfectly understandable. Naturally, you should stick with what you feel most comfortable, which is generally what you grew up with.

I agree with Finn on the subject of 'lol'. The one bad thing about the Internet is that it is difficult to express your emotions clearly, and here 'lol' serves a useful purpose. Other forms of netspeak are annoying (I particularly do not like the discarding of vowels from words, as it makes it very difficult to understand, and the use of 'U' instead of 'you').

On a side note, Haymoni (or someone else) what are periods (I see a slight difference in language coming )?

Davon, please do not feel pressured to use American English. As a Brit myself, I most certainly don't! So long as a post has proper capitalisation, punctuation and sentence structure within what the writer can manage, (we all slip up at times!) then that is fine with me, and the members of this forum. Also, don't feel put off posting here because of this thread - it is interesting to discuss these issues sometimes!

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haymoni - Jul 13, 2006 5:22 am (#18 of 108)

The only problem I have after being on this Forum is that I can no longer spell.

Rumor or rumour. Gray or grey. Capitalisation or capitalization.

Thank goodness I am no longer in school!

I've often wondered about the Spanish we learn in school. Is that Mexican Spanish or Spanish Spanish? Is there a difference like American English and British English?

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Thora - Jul 13, 2006 5:26 am (#19 of 108)

Azi,

As to your question on the definition of a period, the word has three American meanings of which I am aware. The first definition is the little dot at the end of a sentance.
Sorry if my American is offensive, in three years of talking with a Brit online she has yet to teach me all my errors. Then again, that's not really the role of a dear friend is it?

Edit: Haymoni, there is a difference, and depending on your teacher you could have learned either one. There are also differences in the Spanish spoken in different parts of Spain, different regions of Mexico, and other Spanish speaking countries. I understand it's quite a bit like a Yankee moving to the South, or a poor Nevadan like myself trying to understand African American slang (I'm at a complete loss, even when the words are repeated to me, but it sure sounds cool).

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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 13, 2006 6:36 am (#20 of 108)

azi, what we refer to as "period" is what the British refer to as full stop(.).

Yes, there are differences in Spanish, there is Spanish, Mexican, Caribbean, South American and Central American. But not nearly as many as you would expect with such large population spread out over such a large region.

The biggest and most distracting difference for me, as a Caribbean Spanish speaker is the second person familiar, plural form, "vosotros" that is in use in Spain. In Argentina and Chili they use an abbreviated form, "vos". In Spanish verbs are conjugated. I always get a fit of the giggles to see vosotros andais.

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azi - Jul 13, 2006 7:39 am (#21 of 108)

Thank you Thora and Mrs Sirius!

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Good Evans - Jul 13, 2006 8:46 am (#22 of 108)

A word to Jonathan and in support of what Azi has already said; I too am English and use “English” English in my spelling and meanings. It actually causes lots of fun as often we use words that others dont know, or have a different meaning to. And likewise we learn words and phrases that othe nationalities use. We are also able to explain some of the phrases that JKR has used that are not commonplace. I echo all that has been said above when I say you will find this site mature, sensible and above all great fun. I hope that you enjoy your time here.

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Finn BV - Jul 13, 2006 10:03 am (#23 of 108)

For example, I had no idea what azi meant when she asked what a period was. I thought she was joking!

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Magic Words - Jul 13, 2006 10:38 am (#24 of 108)

Wow, they're called full stops in Britain? Cool.

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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 13, 2006 11:18 am (#25 of 108)

That's why we are here isn't it?

The most interesting difference for me has been that in British, one does not write Mr. and Mrs. but Mr and Mrs - reading that was rather disconcerting and took a while to get used to. Never mind those plus fours, or Harry wearing his jumper ha ha ha, (lol).

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Chemyst - Jul 13, 2006 12:35 pm (#26 of 108)

An interesting difference for me was the pound sign.
In AmE, we call # the pound sign rather than the hash symbol.
In BrE, a pound sign is £

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virginiaelizabeth - Jul 13, 2006 12:37 pm (#27 of 108)

LOL jumpers...that still makes me laugh!Here a jumper is a little dress-like thingy that only little girls wear. They aren't called periods in Britain?? Full stops...Hahaha I like that, might start calling them that! Well you learn something new everyday!

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geauxtigers - Jul 13, 2006 12:38 pm (#28 of 108)
Edited Jul 13, 2006 1:13 pm

Yeah I remember Percy wearing his tank-top at breakfast and us Americans were wondering why Percy would wear that until we found out the 'tank-top' is the British word for what Americans would refer to as a 'sweater vest'. And a jumper is a dress here, and I kept thinking I was missing something when Ron was wearing a jumper... hmmm?

I also remember Regan of Gong saying something to the extent of biscuits in a hamper, biscuits being breakfast food (even though I know it’s the same as cookies), and a hamper is what we put dirty clothes in!

It's really very interesting, the difference in the english language, not to mention I've learned a lot I didn't know about British English. I think we've all learned a lot through this.

EDIT: a Tank-top is a sleeve-less shirt that people wear usually when doing sports etc. People here wear them all the time because it’s hot, I tend to wear them over a swimsuit or at the beach...

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Dr Filibuster - Jul 13, 2006 1:07 pm (#29 of 108)

What's an American tank top then?

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 13, 2006 1:08 pm (#30 of 108)

I'm beginning to think this was all a ploy to create an offshoot of the Chat thread. Is there really a Jonathan???

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virginiaelizabeth - Jul 13, 2006 1:10 pm (#31 of 108)

Well usually only girls wear them, they are tight fitting, and have skinny straps. If a guy wears one, its generally as an under shirt and you don't see it, but there are some who wear them. I've never called it a tank top before because tanks are generally worn by girls. Just not common for guys! Honestly, I never paid any attention to that line that Tori's talking about. It's not like the whole jumper thing...that was weird!

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Dr Filibuster - Jul 13, 2006 2:41 pm (#32 of 108)

Thanks Virginia, hmmm, sounds like a vest. I'm digressing (or filibusting? ).

Where is this new guy Jonathon? Has he logged on since this thread began?

I assumed his original comment was intended as an approval of the Forum's philosophy and a humourous dig at the American spellcheck. I bet he knows full well there'd be replies to his post.

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Finn BV - Jul 13, 2006 3:11 pm (#33 of 108)

Many guys wear tank tops up here, especially for sports purposes. (The first name that comes to mind is Rafael Nadal.) However, we filibust . .. . er, digress.

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Chemyst - Jul 13, 2006 3:29 pm (#34 of 108)

What's an American tank top then?

It turns out that the "American" tank top started in Britain! I'll post the full reply on the chat thread.

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timrew - Jul 13, 2006 3:53 pm (#35 of 108)

Well, I'm English and I adhere to the proper grammar, just like wot Davon duz!

We Brits shud stick toggever!

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davon - Jul 13, 2006 4:42 pm (#36 of 108)
Edited by Jul 13, 2006 4:43 pm

It seems the comments in what I intended as a friendly introduction may have been misinterpreted to the point that some people took offense. For that I apologise.

When I spoke of my reluctance to use American English, this bears no relation to the American people or my views of them. In fact there are a number of Americans with whom I communicate regularly, and consider close friends. I was just saying that I prefer typing my own messages in the langauge of my own country. In a way I was countering Scolastic's argument when they were publishing the first book in the US and requested that parts of the book be rewritten in US English to supposedly make the book more understandable to the local populace.

As I have said, I am tolerant of other people's views and cultures, even though some people may have got a different impression.

My distaste of leet and textspeak is not simple intolerance either. Leet (where people replace some letters in a word with numbers), and textspeak (removing the vowels in a word to reduce the number of characters) make text a lot harder to read, as you often have to wait and work out exactly what a word is. That is my main gripe.

One last point, I wasn't scared off. I have been feeling a bit unwell for the last couple of days, and haven't visited the forum much.

I hope that clears the air a bit.

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Catherine - Jul 13, 2006 5:07 pm (#37 of 108)

Davon,

It may be that this whole thing was a tempest in a teapot.

So I welcome you, and I suppose NOW you know what you are really in for--we're a bunch of nit-picking know-it-alls. At least, I am.

Please know that we adore correctness (whether British or American) and encourage you to make yourself at home!

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geauxtigers - Jul 13, 2006 5:12 pm (#38 of 108)

Yes, Welcome Davon, I hope you are feeling better. And yes as Catherine said, we are a very nit-picky group of HP fans!

Once again welcome to the forum and have fun!

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 13, 2006 5:58 pm (#39 of 108)

Davon, yes indeed welcome to the forums. I tend to agree it with Catherine that it was a mere trifle although, it did pique my curiousity i must admit. I do hope you enjoy your time here.

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Choices - Jul 13, 2006 6:28 pm (#40 of 108)

Well, now that you have explained your position concerning the English language, I must confess that I am in total agreement. Therefore, I welcome you to the forum, hope you are feeling better, and will soon be joining in our lively discussions.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 13, 2006 6:44 pm (#41 of 108)

You just killed my theory, Jonathan. (I get that a lot.)

Welcome to the thread.

Maria

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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 13, 2006 7:40 pm (#42 of 108)

Welcome Jonathan, and thanks for an opportunity to further dissect our, spelling, word usage, and forms.

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Solitaire - Jul 13, 2006 9:37 pm (#43 of 108)

I suppose I am the one who started everything, because I did misinterpret your comment as a slam. I am glad to know I was wrong. Since it was never my intention to start a brouhaha, I ask your forgiveness and offer a belated welcome to the forum.

I would like to thank you for explaining Leet. I'd never heard the term before. I agree that Leet and "chat-ese" (or chatspeak) are becoming part of regular writing. I am seeing both more and more frequently in my students' writing, much to my dismay, and it merits a stern warning the first time and a loss of points thereafter.

Regarding the editing and rewriting of portions of Jo's books for her American audience, I can only say I am disappointed. Such changes rob the text of some of its charm. If we are able to read, we are certainly able to look up the meaning of any unfamiliar terms or usage. I've been reading British literature for years with no difficulty. Jane Austen is my favorite author. Come to think of it, most of the authors I really love are British--J.K. Rowling, Colin Dexter, P.D. James, Dorothy L. Sayers, Agatha Christie, Peter Mayle.

Again, welcome to the forum. I look forward to reading your posts.

Solitaire

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Kip Carter - Jul 14, 2006 12:46 am (#44 of 108)

davon, thank you for the excellent response above and I appreciate the response of our membership reacting to your reply. I believe that everyone benefits from a discussion like this and I am sure that many, who did not post, learned a lot about how our Forums operate. I also wish to convey to davon warm welcome (those some may have considered it "HOT" ).

We are truly a diverse Family from many different cultures working together to better understand the works of Jo Rowling and each other. This is why I enjoy being a part of such a wonderful group!

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haymoni - Jul 14, 2006 6:58 am (#45 of 108)

I don't know that we've ever had an entire thread devoted to controversy before.

You've made your mark already, davon!!

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timrew - Jul 14, 2006 3:40 pm (#46 of 108)

Davon, I owe you an apology. I assumed you were an American-hating, American-language-hating individual.

It turns out you are not - and for that, I apologise most whole-heartedly.

Welcome to the Forum!

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Vulture - Jul 15, 2006 9:02 am (#47 of 108)

The most interesting difference for me has been that in British, one does not write Mr. and Mrs. but Mr and Mrs (Mrs. Sirius - Jul 13, 2006 11:18 am (#25))

As it happens, I myself am Irish, but I don't think "Mr and Mrs" is the correct way to write it in Britain _ I'm not doubting that you've seen it written, but I wouldn't regard it as correct English.

One general point I should make is that newspapers (with honourable exceptions) have a very sloppy attitude to spelling and grammar, and unfortunately, repeated usage means that this can creep into the writing of books too, as well as into conversation.

===========================================================================================================

Well, I'm English and I adhere to the proper grammar, just like wot Davon duz!

We Brits shud stick toggever! (timrew - Jul 13, 2006 3:53 pm (#35))


I thought you said you were Irish-American, when we were arguing over McLaggen. Maybe I dreamt that.

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Regarding the editing and rewriting of portions of Jo's books for her American audience, I can only say I am disappointed. Such changes rob the text of some of its charm. (Solitaire - Jul 13, 2006 9:37 pm (#43))

I quite agree, and not just its charm: take this extract from the US version of chapter 27 of Book 6, "The Lightning-Struck Tower" (I'm relying on Wikipedia here, so correct me if I'm wrong) _ the text in bold lettering is only in the US version; the rest is in both the UK and US versions:

What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me — forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it. Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had captured and killed your mother — it is what they would do themselves, after all. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban

I don't want to get into a full-blown discussion of Dumbledore's offer to Draco, but I can't accept the part about "Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had captured and killed your mother". Voldemort is well aware of the scruples of the good side _ he has often tried to use them for his own benefit _ and the fact that he is not the only Dark wizard who is, is shown by (1) fake Moody, who boasts to Harry about manipulating people's decency, and (2) Bellatrix in Book 5, who knows what "righteous anger" is, even if there's nothing righteous about her. The Dumbledore we know is well aware of all this, so this is quite a difference between the UK and US versions.

=====================================================================================================

I agree with Davon about using "leet" (though I'd never heard the term before) and textspeak in the Lexicon. I'm a keen user of textspeak in mobile phones because space in messages is limited, but see no reason to use it anywhere else. As for the general issue of American English and "the Queen's English", I myself regard the second as "correct English" and am as strict as possible about its rules. The only exceptions I make are certain words and figures of speech unique to Ireland, which, broadly speaking, are carried over from literal translations of the Irish language.

But I must emphasise that these are just my rules for myself. I would not dream of trying to force anyone else on the Lexicon to live by them _ in fact, it's refreshing to read English written in full-blown American style _ though I would suggest that certain minimum standards of spelling and grammar (which everyone in here seems to do) are needed simply to be understood.

I would also like to suggest that we cut down on abbreviations where possible. I suppose I can endure, for example, the transformation of Dumbledore into "DD" if I have to (!!), but I strongly suggest that we don't make a habit of this. My reason is simply that certain abbreviations make it impossible for me to know what the hell the writer is on about _ and bear in mind that English is my first language: for those for whom it's not, the problem must be worse. At least "DD" is easy enough _ I got that first time. "4PD", on the other hand, reduced me to helpless fury for ages _ I was wondering if this was some kind of wizard police department. Eventually , I happened to see "4 Privet Drive" written somewhere, and it clicked. But I still don't think it's fair.

The absolute worst that I've seen, though, is "ESE". Luckily for me, the first time I saw it was the post where the contributor explained what it was; otherwise, all those posts about Snape being "ESE" would have made me think he was on drugs or had some mad disease. Of those of you who haven't seen it before, hands up everyone who knows what it means ?!! It actually means "ever so evil", and I think it has to be the most absurd creation: the "ever so" is unnecessary, so in effect, it simply means "evil": are four letters really so much harder to type than three ?!!

So please, folks, can I suggest we cut down on abbreviations ? If you're getting tired of typing long words several times, why not stick them in an open text file as you're typing, and then copy (Control + C) and paste (Control + V) the words as necessary.

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Choices - Jul 15, 2006 10:59 am (#48 of 108)

Gosh Vulture, I totally agree with you - especially the last part. It is hard to believe that some people are in such a hurry that they can not type out someone's proper name or say plainly that they are evil.

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Chemyst - Jul 15, 2006 1:23 pm (#49 of 108)

There is a Commonly Used Abbreviations for the Lexicon Forums thread that tells what is acceptable and what is not, and helps one figure out the common abbreviations. But when I went to check the address for this post, I noticed 12GP - Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place - is included but 4PD - 4 Privet Drive - is not.

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Solitaire - Jul 15, 2006 4:37 pm (#50 of 108)

Elanor and I were talking about that one this morning, Chemyst. Another abbreviation that is widely used is JM2K (just my two knuts) ... many of us say it. Perhaps we should petition Kip to add them ... or not!

Solitaire
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Post  Lady Arabella on Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:07 pm


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Finn BV - Jul 15, 2006 6:44 pm (#51 of 108)

I would support JM2K and 4PD – and I'd support 4PD over 12GP, as we see Privet Drive way more often!

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Miss Amanda - Jul 15, 2006 7:05 pm (#52 of 108)

I'd also review the "Recurring Boy Who Lived" Thread. I enjoy taking time to decipher the abbreviations there, but perhaps there are others who would prefer to understand the thread at first glance?

Or are SW and other abbreviations used there accepted? I just find them a natural occurrence when a theory is well-thought out and appreciated by all. Trying to contribute to a long conversation is difficult, after all.

Imagine trying to get your idea put into words while dealing with a complex and many-faceted idea. Sometimes typing and spelling and time come into play. I don't necessarily support using abbreviations (especially considering the guidelines to the forum) but I understand why they are used. Sometimes my mind goes too fast for my poor typing fingers and I am too distracted to edit.

As far as Americanisms go, I am never aware when I am using them. As a matter of fact, it is entirely possible that I use "daycareisms" and post terms that I use with my three-year olds at school.

So to all those to whom I might have addressed the terms "Put on your big girl panties and get on with the day" or "Use your words so I understand" or "I don't like that. That makes me cry," I am entirely sorry. Daycare is a culture and language unto itself.

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TheSaint - Jul 15, 2006 7:51 pm (#53 of 108)

Put on your big girl panties and get on with the day

Rolls-On-Floor..Laughing! That is priceless.

Pointedly, Potter people present a panache for pervasively poignant posts.

Unfortunately not all of us can be quite so verbose. Please forgive our inabilities and please try to see through our plainness.

Thank You.

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Solitaire - Jul 15, 2006 8:26 pm (#54 of 108)

Pointedly, Potter people present a panache for pervasively poignant posts.

Oooooh!! Nice alliteration, TheSaint!

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Kip Carter - Jul 16, 2006 5:46 am (#55 of 108)

Attention to All Who Have an Opinion or Opinions on Abbreviations:

Being that everyone, I hope, understands the message(s) davon conveyed, I am changing the purpose of this thread to attempt to obtain a clear understanding of how abbreviations should be treated. I will leave this thread open for the next week (close-down time: 12:01 am Monday 24 July 2006) so that each of you who care will have the opportunity to post your feelings on abbreviations.

Some issues to consider in your evaluation and suggestions:

1. Our Forums are a part of The Harry Potter Lexicon, which has a page on Abbreviations. Please review it and note that Steve does not use that many abbreviations and most of those used deal with the title of the books, sources, and standard library index usage.

2. Our Forums have a specific thread, “Commonly Used Abbreviations for the Lexicon Forums,” which expands Steve's list with abbreviations and smilies used on our Forums. Note there are three specific sections covering the books, special Forum terms, and limited chat list. The third group is limited to the Chat Thread and those threads similar to the Chat thread, such as the ten threads in the “Current Discussions Between Members” section, the “The World and the Harry Potter Phenomenon” section, and the “Opinions On All Things Harry Potter” section.
The reason for this is those three sections are personal in nature and really have little to do with the works of Jo Rowling; therefore casual conversation are accepted and the reader/participant should understand this. The purpose of the threads in these three sections was to keep the conversational posts off of the threads that discuss the books.

3. Abbreviations could be used in a post if a participant first post what the abbreviation refers, such as World Crossing (WX) being posted early and afterwards WX could be used instead of typing World Crossing out each time. However when that message is posted, you should never assume that everyone will remember that abbreviations later in the thread; therefore you would need to establish your abbreviation(s) again if you want to use them again.

4. I have noticed some problems with abbreviations used in the book threads. I do understand that some messages are delicate in some of the threads, especially when some members are not willing to allow another viewpoint and the poster has to add some personal abbreviations, smilies, or humor to soften the presentation. I do not mind this approach, especially if those additions are understood by all (and how can you determine that?) and do not disrupt the discussion on that thread.

5. I would rather not have our Hosts become "grammar, spelling, capitalization or abbreviation police" because I feel that our members can review their posts within the 30 (thirty) minutes of editing time that each participant has after posting his/her message and make those changes necessary so that all can follow what you are stating.

6. Please consider that our members are international in scope and could have trouble understanding your posts when unfamiliar abbreviations are used.

At present, I am leaning towards eliminating many of the abbreviations versus expanding the list because I feel that expanding the abbreviations may cause more problems than it solves. I could accept an increase on the chat-type thread, if those would be used on those specific threads only and not venture into the book threads.

If you differ or agree with my thoughts, you are invited to either post your thoughts here or send an email to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. If someone post a message here that you do not agree, you are most welcome to present another approach; however I will not accept any post that attacks a member's right to express their views. Quality, not quantity, of posts will influence my decision.

Thank you ahead for your input!

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DJ Evans - Jul 16, 2006 8:02 am (#56 of 108)

Personally? I can see both sides -- as long as it is an abbreviation that I know & get, I don't have a problem with it ---- of course. lol Someone mentioned one that was used, an "ESE", I believe, never in a million years would I have figured that one out. But then I didn't see the post it was written in, so I might would have gotten seeing it in its context.

What I did in a post the other day is what Kip suggested & that is to write out the complete name/phrase in my original post & abbreviated from then on. Such as Prof. Trelawney (making bold what abbreviation I was going to use) then switching to just Prof. T. I have to admit though in all my other posts I continued with just the abbreviation when I should have done what I did in the original post. I can see by doing most of our abbreviations that way would be helpful to those of us (like me) who don't always get them.

I would like to see the common ones kept though. Such as DD, LV, the book titles, #4PD & #12GP -- as well as the fun ones IMO, IMHO, LOL & ROFL. I'm sure there are others that should be kept but at the moment I can't remember.

Later, Deb

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Finn BV - Jul 16, 2006 1:57 pm (#57 of 108)

Often times it depends on the thread in question. On the Dumbledore thread, for example, the abbreviation "DD" is and should be commonly used. On a thread not directly related to Dumbledore, however (e.g. Dudley Dursley), the word "Dumbledore" should be spelled out – it's not that long anyway – and, if used again frequently in that post, the abbreviation "DD" may follow.

I would say that all of the book abbreviations and JKR should remain throughout the forum as they are the essentials. Sometimes FB and QA ("Fantastic Beasts" and "Quidditch Through the Ages," respectively) should be given context, but for the most part, writing "OoP" should not confuse anybody.

As for the section of abbreviations listed in the ** Commonly Used Abbreviations for the Lexicon Forums thread, I think the following should be kept and should usually not require explanation: 12GP, 4PD, D.A. (as it's used in the books!), DADA, DE, and S.P.E.W. The following should be used only on threads where use of the abbreviations is necessary; otherwise, they should be written out: DD (see note in first paragraph), DoM, LV, MoM, MWPP. I think "HRH" and "WWW," besides the chance of confusing them with His/Her Royal Heighness and World Wide Web, should not be used as I have rarely seen them used at all.

Lastly, there are certain forum abbreviations. Rarely will you see DIGS, FFF, Kipendo, Potty(ies), or SPEW outside threads where strictly adhering to proper spelling, etc., is enforced – they are usually only encountered on the Chat Thread, the Potty Games thread, etc. In my 15 months here, I have encountered KBR and Thumper once, as Carina and I never seemed to collide on our time here. Oh, and also, "'ship" seems to be used in general fandom. It should be used with confusion on the, not surprisingly, 'Ship thread, and used in context on others.

Of course there's "OMG," "LOL," "ROFL," "JM2K," "IMO," and others, which should be used sparingly. Kip mentioned the sections of threads on which it is okay to use these more often than that (on the chat thread, there should be no limit), but for the regular book threads, I think our members know when to cap their use of these words. However, if one were to completely wipe out the use of these words, I feel the forum would lose a bit of its genuineness. Come on, just your two knuts – a brilliant tie-in of HP to an informal phrase to loosen the atmosphere.

I really like Kip's thoughts on smilies, when they are used among "difficult" exchanges between members. They also add a nice touch of flavor to posts. Obviously, using isn't the best way to end a post, but once in a while, a little or can be appreciated.

I hope my statements are appreciated by members with different opinions on abbreviations. "ESE" is not one I would vouch for.

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Choices - Jul 16, 2006 6:09 pm (#58 of 108)

I like your ideas Finn. I have thought that perhaps the first use of a word in a post should be spelled out and then the abbreviation (like Dumbledore (DD) for instance, then just DD) could be used if the poster so desired. For the most part, I prefer to spell out all my words, but that's just me.

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Solitaire - Jul 16, 2006 7:07 pm (#59 of 108)

Most of us who use JM2K (just my two knuts) save it for the end of a post where we have expressed an opinion or floated a theory about something ... and never more than once per post. I do not recall seeing OMG, ROTFL, LOL, and IMO outside the chat thread except on very rare occasions ... unless I'm just drawing a blank.

Smilies really do help compensate for the lack of facial expression and voice inflection when we want to make sure a post that is strongly worded is not taken the wrong way.

Solitaire

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Regan of Gong - Jul 16, 2006 9:00 pm (#60 of 108)

Ahhh, JM2K means that! Yay! I feel so "in" now...

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Amilia Smith - Jul 16, 2006 9:59 pm (#61 of 108)

A while back I read this post by Ponine. She said:

Often, you want to do a search on a particular person or topic, and while at times hysterically funny, it is really hard to for instance find Lord Voldemort, as he is referred to as LV, Voldemore (tsk), Voldemort, Voldiemoldie, Lard Moldievort, and who knows what else. Thus, could it be possible to at least ask people to include the real name of the character's name in the posting, at least once? I hate to miss excellent posts because of a good pun...

End quote.

This post has influenced me a good bit, and I have consciously tried to use abbreviations and nicknames less since reading it. SE Jones explained in the post following that "You can still find a post on a character by putting in the name (Voldemort) as the posts around the ones with the abbreviations should contain the full name." So I have tried to be one of the surrounding posts that contain the full name.

That said, I do admit to continuing to use the abbreviations for the books, as well as for LOL, JM2K, and SPEW.

Mills.

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Tazzygirl - Jul 16, 2006 11:48 pm (#62 of 108)

Ummmm... what does ESE mean?

EDIT: Nevermind! I did research, and it's "ever so evil".

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Chemyst - Jul 17, 2006 4:20 am (#63 of 108)

RE: DDM, DumbleDores Man and ESE, Ever So Evil.
I had already done a search to find out what they meant and — OK, so I'm a Lexicon Connoisseur Bigot — but when I read in Remus Lupin #2215 – SilverMoonLady, that those terms were IMPORTED from OTHER message boards, I was properly mortified! They should never make the 'approved' list!

I'm happy with what we have now. I don't think the current guideline is broken enough to require a major fix; just a few tweaks. I like the narrow list that reflects abbreviations used on the Lexicon, a few standard ones that show up in a regular dictionary, along with the flexibility to add a few that are unique to our forum (DIGS, SPEW). JM2K expresses in Potterese what IMO or IMHO does elsewhere and is my preferred term to replace them. If I were headmistress over this forum, I'd send a very sweet communiqué to my hosts asking them to maintain constant vigilance in editing the unapproved nicknames, add 4PD to the approved list, and then sit back to enjoy a butterbeer.

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Regan of Gong - Jul 17, 2006 5:48 am (#64 of 108)

SS is ESE IMHO. HP is DDM. JM2K of course.

Fairly confusing methinks...

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Vulture - Jul 17, 2006 11:27 am (#65 of 108)

I would also like to suggest that we cut down on abbreviations where possible. I suppose I can endure, for example, the transformation of Dumbledore into "DD" if I have to (!!), but I strongly suggest that we don't make a habit of this. My reason is simply that certain abbreviations make it impossible for me to know what the hell the writer is on about _ and bear in mind that English is my first language: for those for whom it's not, the problem must be worse. At least "DD" is easy enough _ I got that first time. "4PD", on the other hand, reduced me to helpless fury for ages _ I was wondering if this was some kind of wizard police department. Eventually , I happened to see "4 Privet Drive" written somewhere, and it clicked. But I still don't think it's fair.

The absolute worst that I've seen, though, is "ESE". Luckily for me, the first time I saw it was the post where the contributor explained what it was; otherwise, all those posts about Snape being "ESE" would have made me think he was on drugs or had some mad disease. Of those of you who haven't seen it before, hands up everyone who knows what it means ?!! It actually means "ever so evil", and I think it has to be the most absurd creation: the "ever so" is unnecessary, so in effect, it simply means "evil": are four letters really so much harder to type than three ?!!

So please, folks, can I suggest we cut down on abbreviations ? If you're getting tired of typing long words several times, why not stick them in an open text file as you're typing, and then copy (Control + C) and paste (Control + V) the words as necessary. (Vulture - Jul 15, 2006 9:02 am (#47))

Hi, Kip + Everyone: I should start by saying that I fully recognise everyone else's right to a different opinion, because I'm not sure that people will agree with me !! (Though some have _ thanks, Choices, for example.)

Basically, as you've probably gathered from my earlier post _ I'm utterly AT WAR with abbreviations: if I had my way, I'd ban the lot !! I've looked at the Lexicon's "Common Abbreviations" rules and I think the Lexicon is already bending over backwards on the issue _ I would be a lot less liberal !!

However, I'm not expecting to get my way _ but the above is my vote, as ye asked. I've said plenty about "ESE": today I saw a question about "SW" _ I looked it up and couldn't find it. To me, "SW" means "software".

My feeling is that there are people who log on to the Lexicon every day, and then there are those, like myself, who are less frequent. I've a hunch that the more often someone is in here, the more chatty, naturally, they become with other frequent users _ and I've a feeling that that's when abbreviations crop up. Just a hunch.

We're probably going to end up with a compromise, so my suggestion would be that if there HAVE to be abbreviations (but see my suggestion on Copy + Paste, above), they should be (1) necessary, or at least defendable, on grounds of word length, and (2) easy to figure out at first glance. Although I don't use "DD", I think it passes both tests _ at least, I figured it out without looking it up, the minute I saw it. "ESE" passes neither test, being simply a way of saying "evil".

Another thing people could do is create a (hopefully short) list of abbreviations they use all the time, with their meanings, and copy this to the beginning of EVERY post they plan to use them in. (Actually, my sneaky secret agenda here is to put everyone off using abbreviations ever again in this world, the next, or wherever Sirius has gone.)

JM2K (Oh my God !!)

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Finn BV - Jul 17, 2006 3:32 pm (#66 of 108)

Mills, I remember reading that too! I've tried to do as you, include the name at least once.

Chemyst, hear hear!

Vulture, while I heartily disagree that abbreviations should be banned altogether, I would suggest that people, instead of taking up room in the beginning of their post, place a list in their profile, perhaps.

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Miss Amanda - Jul 17, 2006 5:22 pm (#67 of 108)

Vulture, SW means strongest wizard. It is used in the Recurring Boy Who Lived Theory (update) thread. This really is the only thread where I ran into abbreviations that I could not decipher at first. vball man makes an effort to establish the unique abbreviations at the opening of his thread. I feel that the reason the Recurring Boy Who Lived Theory (update) thread uses these abbreviations is that it is a complex theory with unique terms that must be repeated quite often.

I wonder . . . what would a change in the status of how abbreviations would be used do in a thread such as that? The abbreviations are clearly made at the beginning of the thread, and fairly often someone posts an antecedant, for example, Strongest Wizard (SW). The abbreviations are consistent within the thread.

Would it be more prudent to allow for exceptions or to issue a statement that abbreviations make it difficult for some to follow? Yes, it is annoying to have to look up the meaning, but it would be annoying to keep reminding some of us to not use abbreviations to which we have become accustomed.

My biggest problems are abbreviations for words not commonly used in the canon. So I decipher 4PD fairly quickly, but I did not catch SW. I would never in a million years guessed ESE. I did catch JM2K, but really I think only after I'd been on the Forum for a while.

I have a question. Do other threads use abbreviations unique to the thread? How about the Alchemy thread? (I'm too intimidated to read far into that one!) What will we do when threads and theories earn their own nicknames (DIGS, for example).

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Choices - Jul 17, 2006 6:17 pm (#68 of 108)

I'm sorry to say it, but when I come across a post with lots of unfamiliar abbreviations or improper spelling, capitalization, etc. I just skip it and move on to the next legible post. There are just too many really good posts to read to waste time on a sloppy one. If someone can't go to the trouble of using proper English (of course, the exception is forum members whose first language is not English), then I am not really interested in what they have to say. We all make mistakes in grammar or spelling at times (I admit that I am not the best speller, but that is what Spell Checker is for and I use it), but when a post is full of mistakes, strange abbreviations, etc. I refuse to try to struggle through it. I think we should all make a sincere effort to do our grammatical best when posting.

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Thom Matheson - Jul 17, 2006 7:28 pm (#69 of 108)

Ever So Evil? Paleese!!! Perhaps the fact that I am older, but... So I have thought of a few to begin a new fad. HIC( Harry is cool). I'm sure that all of you just picked that out right away without explanation. Does PS still mean post script? I'm still trying to put my arms around RIF(reading is fundemental). How would it be if JKR wrote the books with acronyms and we had to guess at it.

I would be in favor NO shortcuts. Just spell it out. Then there is no need to guess or a need to post to ask "what did you mean". If you can't spell it out you must be ESE to make me have to guess. But I have to say that finally finding out what ESE was is a great relief off my shoulders.

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Solitaire - Jul 17, 2006 7:44 pm (#70 of 108)

Okay, I confess ... I didn't know what ESE was, either. I think most of the acronyms are pretty easy to figure out, however, and we do have that brief thread with explanations for acronyms and the "formulas" for Forum smilies. Perhaps it should be suggested that new members take a peek at this thread.

Personally, I have no problem with acronyms, once I understand what they mean. Like Choices, though, I scroll past posts that are rife with acronyms I do not understand. Of course, I tend to do the same with all posts that are hard to read (colors that hurt my eyes, odd syntax, no "white space" at all ...).

Solitaire

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journeymom - Jul 18, 2006 8:59 am (#71 of 108)

I think I'm in agreement with most of you here. Choices, Solitaire, I also skip posts if they have too many abbreviations, too few capitalizations and not enough paragraph breaks.

However, I do get a kick out of using some abbreviations. My first forum that I posted regularly at was mothering.com, where they use dh = dear (or damn) husband, dd = dear daughter (therefore I always use Dd for Dumbledore) and ds = dear son. I think those abbreviations are pretty universal at parenting-type forums.

I have wanted to refer to my husband as dh here occasionally, but wasn't sure if others would know what it meant. So I opted to just spell it out. Does everybody know that dh means dear husband?

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Finn BV - Jul 18, 2006 9:21 am (#72 of 108)

journeymom, I never would have guessed.

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Choices - Jul 18, 2006 10:39 am (#73 of 108)

For me, it all comes down to wanting people to enjoy my thoughts and also the way I present them. They should be pleasant and easy to understand and to read. I, too, have wondered what ESE means, and not knowing made me totally miss the point of the post. Some abbreviations are fine - I like JM2K or IMO, 4PD or 12GP are pretty obvious, but let's keep them to a minimum and refrain from inventing others that no one recognizes.

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John Bumbledore - Jul 18, 2006 1:25 pm (#74 of 108)

Sticker of Dumbledore thinking.I sense a consensus on abbreviations begin limited, with a certain few being widely understood and thus acceptable. And Finn and others have addressed that emoticons (also known as smiles or smilies, though not all are smiles --such as this one which is an angry face--) are helpful when words may have multiple meanings dependent upon the tone of voice. One that has not yet been mentioned here is RotD (rest of the day or remains of the day) which has seen growing usage on the chat thread. It reflects the need to recognize the global span of membership and that a parting wish for a good evening may often miss the mark.

What I would add to this is the other language usage that Davon addressed. Language that is regional, or cultural in meaning. The Lexicon includes a section on word or phrases that are strictly British. Whether pants are trousers or undergarments, that trainers are shoes and not transitional diapers, can lead to funny misunderstandings. These types of differing definitions for the same word or phrase are often difficult to recognize during edit and review. I have been surprised by a few that I have used and had to explain when later asked for the meaning. We might do well to include some of these words or phrases in a thread giving explanations or international translations. I regret that I haven't the time to compile such a list for this post.

But I still giggle at Flitch gnashing his teeth, because he had to punt the students across the swamp in OoP.

I hope I have made a positive contribution to this topic.

<)B^D˜ John Bumbledore

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Finn BV - Jul 18, 2006 3:44 pm (#75 of 108)

Bumbledore, I would suggest that "RotD" need not be worried about as it is limited to the chat thread, where we are loose with our abbreviations, spelling, and overall coherence.

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Choices - Jul 18, 2006 4:57 pm (#76 of 108)

I agree Finn - there are many things that are fine to use in the casual atmosphere of the Chat and Greeting thread that should not necessarily be used in the rest of the forum threads.

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Solitaire - Jul 18, 2006 6:58 pm (#77 of 108)

Journeymom, I know those abbreviations--as well as BIL (brother-in-law), MIL (mother-in-law), etc.--and I do not think there is a problem using them on the chat thread.

” . . .trainers are shoes and not transitional diapers.” LOL Diapers would never have crossed my mind, but then I'm not a mom!

Like Choices and Finn, I think the chat thread is more casual and those abbreviations are fine. Besides, if we do not understand something there, we ask--as I did with Ungrateful Son. Such requests do not derail a chat thread the way they might do with one of the book threads.

Solitaire

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 18, 2006 10:12 pm (#78 of 108)

If I might also make a suggestion there are some abbreviations that the Lexicon uses when citing references to a particular interview, whose inclusion ought to be discussed as well. I would also suggest adding the abrieviations LEX as a form of shorthand for the HP Lexicon and TLC for The Leaky Cauldron.

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haymoni - Jul 19, 2006 6:17 am (#79 of 108)

I like JM2K - I never use it, but I like it because it's "Knuts" - definitely a Potterism!

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ctgretzky99 - Jul 19, 2006 8:54 am (#80 of 108)

As unpopular as this statement may be, I think it is boderline silly to have guidelines of language on some internet bulletin board. As long as the person has a valid point, and is being rational and personable, I could care less if they like to write girls with a u and z instead of an i and s.

Just my opinion as someone who has hosted and been a member of many bb's .

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Ponine - Jul 19, 2006 9:00 am (#81 of 108)

I found this to be a most interesting thread. At first, I was immmediately drawn to it because it said 'controversy' (sad, but such is the nature of this beast, at least) I get stuck on the most bizarre things -- would you say that the usage of gray/grey depends on whether you are American or British? I honestly always thought that was a personal preference?

And I can't believe that someone actually a) remembered, b) referred to, and c) linked to a post of mine (from a year ago!!) Amalia and Finn -- I can't believe that you would keep my request in mind after so long! You guys are awesome! :blushing:

It took me forever to figure out JM2K, but I enjoy it -- not to mention how proud I was the first time I used it.... I think that in every community or subculture, if you will, you will find a unique lingo or way of communicating. IMHO, there's nothing wrong with having developed one here -- as long as we keep the abbriviations to a minimum of fairly standard, basic ones (ESE seems completely off the wall to me, by the way). JM2.5K, of course...

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haymoni - Jul 19, 2006 9:52 am (#82 of 108)

ctgretzky - it is easier for our members who don't have English (American or British!) as their first language to figure out what we are trying to say.

A number of the threads have topics that are very involved. I have a hard enough time trying to understand what they are saying on the Alchemy thread and the Symbolism thread in English, let alone if they were using Netspeak.

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Finn BV - Jul 19, 2006 9:58 am (#83 of 108)

Hehe haymoni – with you all the way!

ctgretzky, while, sure, most can understand people if they spell "girls" "gurlz," it detracts from the authenticity of the Forum. Considering this is an offspring of a Lexicon – an encyclopedia –, having people use informal language like that just doesn't seem to make sense. We do have a "Chat and Greeting Thread" where you don't have to strictly adhere to the main rules of abbreviations, etc., and you can visit us there any time you like. But we take this Forum professionaly and seriously, just as if we were speaking and not writing to each other. There are countless boards that allow you to use Netspeak. We just don't go for that here. It's as simple as that – write stuff in the language we have agreed to use, because, as haymoni said, there are many members who don't speak English as a first language.

**waves to Ponine**

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Chemyst - Jul 19, 2006 10:10 am (#84 of 108)

ctgretzky, I think I have just been called "boderline silly." Oh well, even if you meant 'borderline' I should probably come clean—
I have a confession to make: On a Potterfan quiz I scored only 17 of a possible 100. The truth is, I don't care about the HP books any more than other fantasy books. But I do love[ the discussions I find here on the Lexicon forum.

So why do I choose to spend my time here when I'm not all that crazy about the books? It's because I'm fond of reading and writing real sentences. I can't help myself. I've tried other forums and message boards, but the only two I've stayed with are this one and another for home educators which operates under similar guidelines. I guess valid points and sparkling personalities aren't enough to satisfy me; I want spelling and punctuation too!

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Vulture - Jul 19, 2006 10:33 am (#85 of 108)

Vulture, while I heartily disagree that abbreviations should be banned altogether, I would suggest that people, instead of taking up room in the beginning of their post, place a list in their profile, perhaps. (Finn BV- Jul 17, 2006 3:32 pm (#66))

Well, mainly, may I suggest that, if people are going to use abbreviations of their own (i.e. not Lexicon-approved), that they at least put those in the post _ there shouldn't be too many of those.

I'm sorry to say it, but when I come across a post with lots of unfamiliar abbreviations or improper spelling, capitalization, etc. I just skip it and move on to the next legible post. There are just too many really good posts to read to waste time on a sloppy one. If someone can't go to the trouble of using proper English (of course, the exception is forum members whose first language is not English), then I am not really interested in what they have to say. We all make mistakes in grammar or spelling at times (I admit that I am not the best speller, but that is what Spell Checker is for and I use it), but when a post is full of mistakes, strange abbreviations, etc. I refuse to try to struggle through it. I think we should all make a sincere effort to do our grammatical best when posting. (Choices- Jul 17, 2006 6:17 pm (#68))

To be honest, this is exactly my view, and all the better for taking about a quarter of the space that I do to say so !!

I also think that Kip's point about people whose first language isn't English should be a major factor _ for example, if the Lexicon was in French, I'd get along happily enough with the odd abbreviation well-known to French speakers (SVP, for example), but even a moderate amount and I'd be struggling.

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Choices - Jul 19, 2006 10:35 am (#86 of 108)

LOL @ Chemyst - You just have to love honesty!!

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 19, 2006 10:51 am (#87 of 108)

I am inclined to agree with Finn's point of view. There are several threads especially the literary symbolism, the alchemy thread, and I would also add that at times the discussions on mythology thread that are complex in nature to such an extent that the use of abbreviations in these threads could detract from the ability of the of members not accustomed to posting in those threads to readily join in those types of discussions.

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Solitaire - Jul 19, 2006 11:30 am (#88 of 108)

we take this Forum professionaly and seriously, just as if we were speaking and not writing to each other. There are countless boards that allow you to use Netspeak. We just don't go for that here. It's as simple as that.

I'd say that sums it up perfectly, Finn!

I have a hard enough time trying to understand what they are saying on the Alchemy thread and the Symbolism thread in English, let alone if they were using Netspeak

Right again, Haymoni.

One of the reasons I love this Forum, ctgretzky, is that it is not like other forums and bulletin boards. Kip is serious about our following the established forms of courtesy and behavior, and the moderators enforce this. We are also not allowed to "sneak" little snide or controversial comments into our posts. The moderators are quick on the draw, and they will edit any posts that do not adhere to the spirit of the HP Lexicon Forum.

As Finn said, many of us do take this Forum seriously. If you look back through some of the Forum archives, you will see that some posts are as lengthy, carefully researched, and jam-packed with content as a short, well-written essay one might submit in high school or junior college--and the writers treat their subject matter with respect by attempting to use correct grammar, sentence structure, and spelling.

I love the Forum as it is. I would hate to see it deteriorate until it is just like other boards and forums. It would no longer be the special place that it is. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire

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Finn BV - Jul 19, 2006 2:37 pm (#89 of 108)

Vulture, there we agree. That way, the Recurring Boy Who Lived thread is okay, as the abbreviations which are used throughout the thread are mentioned in the initial post, and anybody who follows the thread will have (or should have) read the initial post.

JM2K, of course ... –Soli

Huh?? <-- an example of smilies being used to aid my emotions.

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geauxtigers - Jul 19, 2006 2:51 pm (#90 of 108)

I agree with yall here, one of the things I like about this forum is that people talk properly. There are things that are used for instant messaging ect, that annoy me, 'gurlz' is one of them, I don't mine 'u' and 'ur' some much, it’s the words that use the exact same number of letters, just spelled differently. I am personally a supporter of the proper grammar on these forums. I think the current abbreviations we use are just fine, it lightens up everything and keeps it from being too serious. It’s a good mix, and I think it’s the best way to enjoy these forums. I'd probaly have left this forum pretty fast if there were too much 'wut r u doin today' type of thing! Plus the non-english as a first lanugage speakers here, let’s not make it harder than it needs to be!

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Regan of Gong - Jul 19, 2006 7:07 pm (#91 of 108)

Gurlz...yeuch. I don't think that way of spelling is adequate for any female character in the HP books, let alone on this forum. It's an abbreviation used for Instant Messaging (Hard to resist writing IM there) which, in most cases, does not have nearly the amount of courtesy, respect or even substance that we have here on the Lexicon forum. Let's not be associated with it.

May I also voice my opinion that the multiple exclamation marks in a post are unnecessary! See? Only one exclamation mark, and I'm in good hope that got my message across perfectly clearly. (but I am happy to stand corrected if suitably challenged.) Sorry people, it's a personal hate of mine. That coupled with no formatting and paragraph breaks, will most likely be ignored by me, and I'm sure, by others.



Regan

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Finn BV - Jul 19, 2006 7:22 pm (#92 of 108)

Yes – I will always skip over a post where there seems to be no clear break of thought.

I used to hate multiple exclamation points, but I'll admit to using two (no more!) in a sentence, just because of this whole "getting across the emotion" thing. Usually they're just for humor, though – when I want to stress something more often silly. I do get bugged when I see a sentence like this!!!!!!!!!!!

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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 19, 2006 8:20 pm (#93 of 108)

Indeed the multiple use of exclamation points I find detracts from the quality of the post.

On the subject of abbreviations there are certain abbreviations that I have used on prior occasions which, I view in a new light given this discussion. For example, I have in the past used the abbreviation MoM to refer either to the Minister of Magic as a person or the Ministry of Magic as an entity. Yet, the problem with such abbreviations is that their meaning is dependent upon the context and content of the post in question.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 19, 2006 10:22 pm (#94 of 108)

Netspeak I abhor, and can live without most abbreviations.

Being rational and having clear thoughts are required?

... mumbles as I toddle off back to St. Mungos, I'll never be able to post ...

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Ponine - Jul 19, 2006 10:29 pm (#95 of 108)

I must (as often before)disagree with you, Vulture. English is not my first language, and while some threads *cough* alchemy *cough* may be hard to follow for me because of the subject matter or whatever reason, that is one thing, and something I as a native Norwegian will have to either live with or strive to learn the language better. The thought of all non-Brits/Americans theoretically being forced to struggle or alternatively give up on threads because of native English-speaking member extensively using abbreviations, slang or various forms of netspeak seems very unforumesque to me. Maybe I'm wrong, but I never saw this place as an American/English forum as much as a HP forum for people all over the world who all communicate with each other in English.

Waves back to Finn Oh... and speaking of formatting -- does anyone know where to find that overview of formatting? I sort of started to get the hang of it, but I'm on a different computer, and I only remember three emoticons, which somewhat limits my emotional range at the moment... (go ahead, say it.)

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Chemyst - Jul 20, 2006 5:31 am (#96 of 108)

and speaking of formatting -- does anyone know where to find that overview of formatting?

Much of what you want is in the Navigating the Forum thread. Emoticons/smilies are at the end of page two.

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haymoni - Jul 20, 2006 6:20 am (#97 of 108)

I never claimed to have quality posts!!!!

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John Bumbledore - Jul 20, 2006 2:55 pm (#98 of 108)

Ponine, There is a newer list of emoticons/smiles on the practice thread. They have been arranged in what I hope is a more organized form with easy instructions.

<)B^D˜ John Bumbledore

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Magic Words - Jul 20, 2006 3:32 pm (#99 of 108)

Ponine, just because you have the emotional range of a teaspoon doesn't mean we all have!!

What? You asked for someone to say it!

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Ponine - Jul 20, 2006 3:44 pm (#100 of 108)

Thank you John B.! And Magic Words -- -- make that a great big ladle, why don't you?

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Mediwitch - Jul 22, 2006 3:25 pm (#101 of 108)

Just to add my two knuts, this is the only forum I use, simply because of the rules for grammar and punctuation. I find other boards much more cumbersome and difficult to follow, and I am a native (American) English speaker. Of course, one of the last books I read was Eats, Shoots and Leaves, so that probably says something about me. I think the "rules" (and Kip's and the moderators' consistency in applying them) are largely responsible for the civility we enjoy here. I do think a few, well-chosen abbreviations are useful to maintain the flow of some topics.

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Ponine - Jul 22, 2006 9:48 pm (#102 of 108)

Did you like it, Mediwitch? I haven't gotten around to picking that up yet, but it's supposed to be pretty good -- it was recommended by my editing professor

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Finn BV - Jul 22, 2006 10:00 pm (#103 of 108)

I thought it was great! Definitely to be taken in mind by the Netspeak user…

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Mediwitch - Jul 23, 2006 6:52 am (#104 of 108)

I did like it very much! Lynne Truss has such a great sense of humor; she made punctuation entertaining. I recommended it to my husband, who teaches high school Technology Education, because some of the writing he gets from kids is downright scary. (Some is excellent, too, but the scary ones... *shudders*.) I am planning on recommending it to the special education teachers, too. I think it will capture the kids in a way ordinary grammar and punctuation texts can't. Of course, now I'm paranoid, like when I just used the elipses!

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Steve Newton - Jul 23, 2006 7:01 am (#105 of 108)

This discussion has made me think of the abbreviations that I use. It makes me wonder where I would draw the line.

JKR=the author SS,COS,POA,GOF,OOTP,HBP-the books OOTP-the group itself RPS-the Round Pink Spider

I must use more but these are what come to mind.

I recognize LOL, ROFL, ROTD (took me a while to figure out), usually SW and BWL (boy who lived).

Thats all that I can think of. I do occasionally make up ones for indivisual post. These are usually unbelievably hilarious.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 23, 2006 7:40 am (#106 of 108)

Nice to be remembered Steve.

...TBE toddles off elsewhere...

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Steve Newton - Jul 23, 2006 7:55 am (#107 of 108)

Yes! I have used TBE. Sorry. :sorry:

I like the smilies. Unfortunately I forget the right one to use here.

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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 23, 2006 9:11 am (#108 of 108)

I use PS/SS for book 1, because it has two different titles. I've seen SS used for Severus Snape, which I don't like. Confusing. And I always think of Storm Trooper.

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