Still Unanswered Questions

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Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Solitaire on Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:38 pm

DD to Minerva: "I must have passed a dozen feasts and parties on my way here." Hm.... I don't want to think of what that indicates regarding DD's day.
Just because DD "passed" them doesn't mean he attended them. We know they were happening, because Uncle Vernon saw people in cloaks on his way to work; remember how they irritated him?

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Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Julia H. on Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:59 pm

I didn't really think DD spent the day celebrating. It could explain how those 24 hours got "lost" though. But I know DD is not like that.

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Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Verity Weasley on Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:28 pm

That is some very thorough and impressive analysis Shepherdess, and as always, Julia, you make a lot of sense.

Personally, I don't like the idea of the 'alarm charm'. It's a little too convenient and powerful although at the same time, sadly lacking in the very purpose it should have. We previously discussed the possibility of Dumbledore having set up a 'neighbourhood watch' with members of the Order of the Phoenix and I do think that is plausible. He did that in OotP to watch over Harry. If this 'alarm charm' existed, why not use it then? (Or perhaps because it failed so badly the first time ). So, someone is patrolling Godrics Hollow and sends word to Dumbledore as soon as they're aware of LV's presence. I think it was Julia who suggested that Dumbledore might have sent Fawkes to investigate, and I think that is highly likely. Fawkes may have got there in time to witness the murders, so could give Dumbledore a remote replay of what happened through some kind of telepathy/legilimency link.

Later on, Dumbledore will explain to Harry that his mother died to save him, and that's why Quirrel/LV couldn't touch him. How could Dumbledore know this? He could make a guess, knowing what he does about Lily's personality, but there's no way he could have even known that she'd had the opportunity to put herself in front of Harry to protect him. LV could have AK'd James and Lily downstairs before calmly walking up to Harry's room to finish the job. Or Lily could have stepped aside when ordered to do so (unlikely but possible). The point is, how could Dumbledore have known about Lily's ultimate sacrifice? Perhaps because Fawkes had witnessed it and shared the vision with Dumbledore.

I like the idea of Hagrid taking Harry to a Healer. That would help to account for some of the missing hours and also explain how Dumbledore already knew about the scar. He may have received a report by owl or have visited the Healer in person. Given that he passed a dozen feasts and parties, he must have made quite a few stops at different places, as you can't really 'pass' anything when you're apparating.

So to recap:

1. The 'neighbourhood watch' patrol sends word to Dumbledore of a disturbance in Godrics Hollow.
2. Dumbledore immediately dispatches Fawkes to investigate (why not go in person? perhaps he believed that the Fidelius Charm would keep the Potters safe, and his sudden appearance would only serve to alert LV that he was on the right track)
3. Fawkes arrives in time to witness the murder of Lily and the attempted murder of Harry.
4. Fawkes returns and reports to Dumbledore.
5. Dumbledore sends Hagrid to collect Harry, using a hastily arranged Portkey.
6. Hagrid rescues Harry from the rubble, just as Sirius turns up on the motorbike. Sirius had been to check on Pettigrew, finds him gone and goes to check on the Potters.
7. Sirius gives Hagrid the bike, and leaves to pursue Pettigrew.
8. Hagrid takes Harry on a scenic tour of South England, stopping off to visit a Healer along the way.
9. Dumbledore spends the day doing who knows what, but possibly including checking in with Snape, a visit to the Ministry to inform them what's happened, and a visit to the Healer to get a report on Harry's condition. He may also have used this time to investigate Harry's relatives and then gets word to Hagrid telling him where to bring Harry. It's clear Hagrid and Dumbledore haven't spoken since Hagrid left to fetch Harry, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Dumbledore told him the arrangements before sending him off.
10. Somewhere along the way, McGonagall hears what's happened, but not from Dumbledore, and finds out from Hagrid where Dumbledore will be at midnight.

There are lots of things that don't quite add up, but we're getting close!

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Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Julia H. on Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:29 am

I really like this chain of events, Verity.

I have just two things to add: Minerva was sitting outside the Dursley house in the morning as Vernon was leaving for work. So she had learned where Dumbledore would be later quite early in the morning. (Then again, Hagrid may have left for GH at night already, since the murders occurred at night, too.) That Minerva found it out from Hagrid, not from Dumbledore, suggests that Dumbledore had left Hogwarts before Minerva (or locked the door of his office and no one was allowed to disturb him).

What Dumbledore did included one more thing: He had to perform the charm that Petunia was to seal. We don't know how long it took, but he apparently didn't have to go to 4PD to do it - or if he did, he got there and left again before Minerva arrived.

I agree about the alarm charm.

Good point about Dumbledore knowing exactly what Lily had done, and he must have known it immediately, because the protection Lily gave Harry gave him the idea of using the extended protection sealed by Petunia, Lily's sister.

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That night (and the following day)

Post  Hieronymus Graubart on Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:12 am

Excellent work, Shepherdess, Julia and Verity. I have only one addition based on Shepherdess’ comment for "Nov 1, 1981, Just before midnight":

The problem I have with that, though, is that for 24 hours DD just waited patiently for Hagrid to bring Harry to Privet Drive before even getting a report about Harry’s condition. That would indicate that DD doesn’t really care about Harry, which I don’t think JKR intended since in her mind it hadn’t been that long since LV attacked the Potters.
Didn’t Albus Dumbledore imply in OotP that he didn’t really care about Harry at this time, but Harry grew on him later? (I have to reread this book soon.)

Also, as Julia said it:

DD does not seem to have set a lot of store by the intrinsic value of the Prophecy, he mostly seems to have been worried about Voldemort acting on it”.

Of course Dumbledore didn’t just wait patiently for 24 hours. He was very busy during this time, but protecting "the chosen one" wasn’t his only concern. Since DD didn’t believe that there was only one chosen person who could vanish Voldemort, he didn’t need to care about Harry more than he would care about every ordinary child. Finding what had remained of Voldemort and finishing him of immediately while he was weak, as well as rounding up as much Death Eaters as possible while they were still confused, might have gotten higher priorities.

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Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Verity Weasley on Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:32 am

On this thread we recently discussed the mysterious Dark Force Defence League. Since JKR didn't give us much to go on, we have to fill in the gaps ourselves. Over on the Five Words thread, Julia and I have just started a story where we hope to explore this very topic, so if you have an opinion or a theory or an idea (or even if you don't!) why not pop over and join in. The more the merrier!

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Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Julia H. on Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:38 am

I'd like to second Verity's invitation. Come and join us on Five Words and let's see what this mysterious organization is about.

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Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  shepherdess on Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:01 am

I've reread the first book and I made a list of questions, but now I'm not sure if I should post them all here or on the read-along thread for that book. What do you guys think?
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Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Julia H. on Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:54 am

I'll be happy to read them on either thread. If you have chapter by chapter questions to discuss, I like the idea of a summer read-along. But we'll find the questions on this thread, too.

By the way, Verity and I have just started a Book 1 related story on Five Words.  

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Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  azi on Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:16 pm

I am intending on doing a re-read of the HP books so if others are wanting to do a read-along then it may help me to get around to it.  
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Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Hieronymus Graubart on Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:26 pm

Sorry for the late response. (Note to self: Don't stay offline too long.)

Shepherdess, since you started this thread, you should know best whether your questions fit here. My five knuts:
"There may be a plothole, because as far as I remember, this and that was never explained" goes here.
"I'm sure there is an explanation for what happened in chapter x of book y, but I cannot find it" may better be posted on the respective books read-along thread.
But I'll try to see your questions anyway.

Azi, I should re-read OP soon, but since you probably want to start with PS, this doesn't help you. Obviously I would by glad to see a read-along of OP come up this year.

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Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Verity Weasley on Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:32 am

So my son's girlfriend came over this morning and posed a new unanswered question - do the Hogwarts students wear clothes under their robes? My immediate answer was 'yes, of course they do,' but I think this was based primarily on movie contamination. She went on to point out that in Snape's Worst Memory when James hoists him upside down, everybody sees his underwear when his robes fall down over his head. Were clothes under robes instituted after events such as this, perhaps?

Some thoughts:

In the letters to students listing their school supplies, no mention was ever made of House ties, House jumpers, school trousers or anything else besides school robes and hats.

At the Quidditch World Cup, Archie comments that he likes a nice, healthy breeze around his privates, suggesting that trousers were not something he was accustomed to wearing.

In the description of the dress robes that are worn to the Yule Ball, they would seem to be an all-encompassing outfit, not something that was slipped on over the top of something else.

On the other hand, there is mention of the trio changing into their robes on the train, apparently in front of each other, so that would imply they just pulled them on over whatever they were wearing - maybe.

It seems to be an innocuous question, but the more I think about it, the harder it is to separate canon from movie contamination. I'm wracking my brain trying to think of whether JKR specifically mentions clothes under school robes, but since I'm in the middle of moving house, I don't have time to look anything up.

Does anyone else have a comment?

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Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Julia H. on Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:41 am

Hm. In Book 1, it says: "He and Ron took off their jackets and pulled on their long black robes. Ron's were a bit short for him, you could see his sneakers underneath them."

That sounds as though their robes were the kind of uniforms worn over ordinary clothes. But it can't always be so because robes are not only school  uniforms, they are worn by everyone in the wizarding community to the point that wizards don't even know how Muggles dress. Archie is a good example.

Another example:

"Harry knew this must be Ogden; he was the only person in sight, and he was also wearing the strange assortment of clothes so often chosen by inexperienced wizards trying to look like Muggles: in this case, a frock coat and spats over a striped one-piece bathing costume."

And this is Mr Weasley looking like a Muggle:

"He was wearing what appeared to be a golfing sweater and a very old pair of jeans, slightly too big for him and held up with a thick leather belt.

'What d'you think?' he asked anxiously. 'We're supposed to go incognito - do I look like a Muggle, Harry?'"


So if wizards don't know about Muggle-type clothes, it's an interesting question what they wear under their robes. We could assume it's a fashion thing, too: perhaps teens in Harry's generation wear those clothes (they apparently wear jackets at least), but the older generations don't. It is also possible that they don't want to undress on the train, so they simply pull on their school robes over their other clothes (Muggle clothes for everyone because of the Muggles at King's Cross or Muggle clothes for Harry and a different kind of robes for Ron?), but it doesn't necessarily mean that the next morning they can't just put on their school robes over their underwear.

Anyway, whatever the older generations wear or don't wear under their robes, we may also notice that robes are too short if your sneakers are visible, which means the only reason to wear something other than underwear under them is to protect you from the cold. (Robes are not the same as cloaks, which wizards seem to wear in place of Muggle coats, and at least school robes are worn all the time. Snape deducts house points from Harry when he shows up at school in Muggle attire in HBP.) Snape's Worst Memory takes place in early summer, so I can imagine it is fairly warm. Wearing black robes that reach to your feet could be warm enough in itself (do they have short-sleeve robes at all?), and you seem to be dressed decently enough (your body is completely covered) so I can perfectly understand why Snape does not wear an extra layer of clothes between his underwear and his school robes.

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Do the Hogwarts students wear clothes under their robes?

Post  Hieronymus Graubart on Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:51 pm

Also in book 1, it says (on the second page of chapter 6): "He got up and pulled on his jeans because he didn’t want to walk into the station in his wizzards robes – he’d change on the train."  So Harry wouldn’t have pulled on his jeans if he had intended to wear his robes?

Later in this chapter, when Hermione reminds the boys to put their robes on, before the train arrives at Hogsmeade, Ron says: "Would you mind leaving while we change?", but then Harry "and Ron took off their jackets and pulled on their long black robes."

The German translation is very confusing, because robes and cloak are translated to the same German word. So on my slow bilingual re-read of books 1 to 4 I tried to keep track of all mentions of robes and cloaks. So far, "He and Ron took off their jackets and pulled on their long black robes" seems to be the only sentence which implies that wizards wear trousers under their robes, and it seems to contradict what was said just some lines further up. I think that JKR probably just avoided or was not allowed to mention taking off their jeans in a book whose intended audience is eleven years old.

Yes, Verity, "there is mention of the trio changing into their robes on the train, apparently in front of each other", but this only happens when they are already good friends (not before the fourth year) and nobody else is present. Maybe they just trust each other to look the other way?

So my answer would be 'No, obviously they don't.'

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Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  azi on Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:06 pm

I always assumed that wizards didn't wear things under robes and that it was movie contamination in the films. Seem to remember it being one of the things that annoyed me when I saw PS in the cinema! I think Julia and Hieronymus have the right balance in their analysis.
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Do the Hogwarts students wear clothes under their robes?

Post  Hieronymus Graubart on Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:48 am

Okay, I checked the facts for "apparently in front of each other":

DH: When the trio had escaped from the wedding, Ron changed from dress robes into jeans and sweatshirt (and maroon socks?) in a shadowy alleyway. It’s not clear whether he did this in front of Harry and Hermione or behind their backs.

HBP: No changing on the train was mentioned.

Note: European railway compartments hold two rows of seats facing each other. German standard is three seats per row, but I have seen four seats per row in other countries. (Slughorn serving lunch to seven students is possible, but the compartment would be crowded.) The space between the two rows of seats is just as wide as the sliding door to the corridor, which can only be passed by one person at a time. The compartment shown on Pottermore is much more comfortable, and looks like it was taken from a ninetieth century luxury train. Although this fits the general depiction of the wizarding world, I’m not sure whether it is accurate to what JKR imagined. She wasn’t used to travel in this kind of trains when she wrote the first books.

OP: Harry shared a compartment with Ginny, Neville, and Luna. Ron and Hermione joined them later. At least two of them travelled backwards, sitting face to face (and knee to knee) to others.
"'We’d better change,’ said Hermione at last. She and Ron pinned their prefect badges carefully to their chests."
Something seems to be left out between these two sentences, so we don’t know how the changing into wizard robes was actually done before the prefects pinned the badges to their robes (assuming that this is what happened). To my experience, it is impossible for six passengers in a standard railway compartment to stand up and pull on their coats all at the same time, and it would still be difficult in the Pottermore compartment. It seems reasonable to assume that the boys left the compartment and waited in the corridor while the girls changed, and that the girls left the compartment and waited in the corridor while the boys changed.
On the way back from Hogwarts, no changing on the train was mentioned.

GF: The trio apparently had found a compartment on their own. There had been some visitors, including Seamus, Dean and Neville, and it’s not clear whether Neville ever left. After the encounter with Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle, Harry observed that "Ron’s bad mood continued for the rest of the journey. He didn’t talk much as they changed into their school robes ..." This seems to imply that some time had passed since the last sentence which mentioned Hermione, so we don’t exactly know who "they" are. Apparently Harry and Ron changed in front of each other, or back to back. Hermione (and Neville?) may have been present and may have changed at the same time, but worried readers are allowed to imagine that Hermione had gone to the "bathroom" to change into her school robes there.
On the way back from Hogwarts, no changing on the train was mentioned.

PA: No changing on the train was mentioned.

CS: Harry and Ron didn’t take the train to Hogwarts. On the way back from Hogwarts, no changing on the train was mentioned.

PS/SS: English kids appeared to be so prude that Hermione had to leave the compartment, before Harry and Ron "took off their jackets", but I have to admit that Ron may just have used pretences to get rid of Hermione.
At the end of the year, there is a montage including "And suddenly, their wardrobes were empty, their trunks packed, ... they" (whoever they may have been) "were boarding the Hogwarts Express; talking and laughing as the country side became greener and tidier; eating Bernie Bott’s Every-Flavour Beans as they sped past Muggle towns; pulling off their wizard robes and putting on jackets and coats; ...", all in one paragraph-long run-on sentence.
This is sufficiently vague to imagine any kind of changing procedures for everybody, and come on, coats on a warm summer day? Kids I know wouldn’t even wear jackets.
I keep imagining that this should actually read "shirts and trousers" and was changed by the editor.

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Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Verity Weasley on Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:12 am

HG wrote:...come on, coats on a warm summer day? Kids I know wouldn’t even wear jackets.

LOL! On a British summer day, anything is possible!  What do you think, Azi?

However, I take your point that shirts and trousers would make more sense than jackets and coats, which are essentially the same thing. I knew that posing the question here would result in some thoughtful analysis and HG and Julia have not disappointed. On balance it seems that the idea of traditional school uniforms worn under school robes are entirely the product of movie contamination, propelled by merchandising perhaps, and there is no evidence in canon of such items being worn. However, JKR has also been particularly coy when it comes to describing the situation in detail, so I guess we have to draw our own conclusions.

And Julia, I don't think there has ever been mention of short-sleeved robes. Maybe the weather in Scotland is never warm enough for such fashions - although the current conditions at the British Open in Muirfield would seem to suggest otherwise!  


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Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Solitaire on Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:01 pm

Did you ever see Flashdance? Jennifer Beals sat on an ottoman or something and removed clothing from underneath a sweatshirt while carrying on a face-to-face conversation with someone. I changed on a crowded bus when I was in Europe back in the 70s. I left my sweater (jumper) on, pulled my arms out of it, and maneuvered around under the sweater. Was it difficult to do while sitting in a bus? You bet ... but I did it! Perhaps the robes were put on first and the removal or switching of clothing was done under them. Granted, this seems more like something girls would do, but I suppose guys could handle it, too.

I always think of robes as being worn over at least minimal "street clothes"--like kids do these days for graduation or rectors do for church--because going semi-commando under those robes would be kind of chilly in a drafty old castle in Scotland without longjohns or some sort of leggings underneath them. Oh, wait ... there's probably a heating charm on the castle, so never mind about that! But being only minimally dressed under robes could also be terribly embarrassing if one were caught in a breeze ... or a stray Levicorpus! Of course, Snape's experience with this one does make it seem as if wearing only drawers under the robe is the regular way to go.

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Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  shepherdess on Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:22 pm

Verity Weasley wrote:On balance it seems that the idea of traditional school uniforms worn under school robes are entirely the product of movie contamination, propelled by merchandising perhaps, and there is no evidence in canon of such items being worn.

I don't know; I see it differently. Generally kids who are growing up, with bodies that are changing, tend to be self-conscious about having people see them without clothes on. So it seems to me that the lack of canon stating that they changed privately means that they put their robes on over their clothes, at least on the train. Now perhaps, once at Hogwarts, they might just put on robes when they get dressed in the morning, without other clothing underneath (although in the winter they'd probably freeze). But I can't see teens and pre-teens stripping in front of each other on the train-especially if it's both sexes.

And even if it's always just boys in Harry's compartment, that doesn't mean it's the same in every compartment.

As far as coats/jackets-Hogwarts is in the Scottish Highlands, and it's always cooler in the mountains than at lower altitudes, although, having never been there, I couldn't say whether it's cool enough to wear a coat or jacket in the summer. I agree; azi may be able to shed some light on the climate in that area. Azi?

Edit: I was typing my post when Soli posted (and was repeatedly interrupted). Soli does make a good point about removing clothing underneath the robes, and in fact, Hermione does change that way in the DH movie after they leap off the dragon into the lake. True, that's movie and not canon, but since JKR doesn't tell us exactly how they do it, canon doesn't rule that out any more than anything else.

I don't think there's a heating charm for the castle because we read about how cold and drafty it is in the winter, and even about people getting sick because of it. (Which I never understood, what with magic and all.)
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Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Solitaire on Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:41 pm

I agree completely with your point about adolescents being pretty shy about their bodies and undressing in front of others. We have kids at school who refuse to dress out for gym because they are too shy to change even in the girls' or boys' gym locker room. And there are little stalls, so it's semi-private. Still, some kids won't do it. (This is the same age group that sends inappropriate photos of themselves over their phones, but never mind.)

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Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Julia H. on Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:46 pm

I agree that the train is a special situation, and that undressing there may be uncomfortable. I thought of the possibility of undressing under the robes, too, because I imagine that they would be loose enough for that, but, as Solitaire says, it sounds like something girls would do in the first place. For teenage boys, I still think the easiest solution is to just take off their jackets and put on their robes, especially that no one can see what they are wearing under them anyway. That does not mean that this is necessarily what they do when they get dressed in the morning at Hogwarts.

HG, it's an interesting analysis of what we can know about changing clothes on the train. I've noticed that on the way back to King's Cross, it is never mentioned. Perhaps they don't need to change because they don't wear their school uniforms on the way home at all. It is also interesting that changing is not mentioned in PoA on the way to Hogwarts either. A possible reason for that is that they all go to King's Cross from Diagon Alley in a Ministry vehicle, and they are in a great hurry (thinking that Harry is in danger from Sirius) so they only spend a couple of minutes in the Muggle part of King's Cross, and the Statute of Secrecy is the least of their concerns at the moment anyway, therefore the kids wear their school uniforms from the start.

As for the cold Scottish climate, I don't think anybody is saying that they can't wear extra layers of clothes under their school robes to keep warm. Of course, they may, though I wonder if these extra layers should necessarily reflect the Muggle fashion if older wizards find it so difficult to look like Muggles or to understand Muggle fashion.

I have lived in Northern Europe with my family, and we, going there from a much warmer climate, found the winters rather cold. So I know that under one's trousers it is possible to wear a pair or warm tights and a pair of leggings and a pair of long, thick socks if it is really cold outside, but that doesn't mean that trousers must go with all these other items in Muggle fashion.

"Harry also caught sight of his Transfiguration teacher Professor McGonagall, looking very odd in a Muggle dress and coat..." (OotP)

Professor McGonagall visits 12GP dressed like this. We don't know whether she is taking the Statute of Secrecy very seriously as she is travelling across Muggle London or she is trying to look like a Muggle to disguise a secret Order mission, but we can learn that, apparently, Harry does not normally catch sight of her at Hogwarts wearing a dress or a coat.

To me, wizard robes, including school robes, seem to be the normal clothes for these people rather than just aprons that are worn over street clothes during work or even the kind of uniforms that must be combined with, for example, jeans. It seems that normally (with long sleeves and the robes covering even your shoes) no one could tell what you are wearing under them anyway. That said, wizards will probably wear warm layers of clothes under their robes when it's cold. In summer, however (and I realize that you may not need short-sleeved robes in the Scottish summer, lol! ), these black school uniforms that completely cover your arms and your legs must still be warm enough (cf. Snape), especially when you have survived the winter in the same place. (If you live in a cold climate, your ideas of cold and warm may be very different from those of people living in warmer places, so if you are used to a really cold winter, even a moderately warm summer may seem warm and balmy to you.) Then again, robes can probably be made of warmer and lighter materials as well, so we don't have to assume that the same robes are worn in winter and in summer.

As for being caught in a breeze, well, Muggle women have worn skirts for centuries despite this danger, and with robes that cover your shoes, this danger may not be so serious.

Now, there is, of course, Levicorpus, which we don't have in the Muggle world... The truth is that with magic around, you are never completely safe, regardless of what you are wearing. James Potter did not only cast a Levicorpus on Snape, he also threatened to take off his underpants (and we don't know what happened next), and if that can be done, then jeans are no protection either. Furthermore, Moody's magical eye can see through solid objects as well as through Harry's Invisibility Cloak, so it is rather probable that it can see through ordinary clothes as well. I guess the only thing that saves wizards and witches from embarrassing pranks is the possibility of retaliation - the other side can do magic as well. That did not deter James Potter, but in a normally functioning wizarding society (and school) kids should simply learn that using their magic in certain ways is not acceptable even if it is possible.

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Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Verity Weasley on Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:17 pm

Shepherdess wrote:As far as coats/jackets-Hogwarts is in the Scottish Highlands, and it's always cooler in the mountains than at lower altitudes, although, having never been there, I couldn't say whether it's cool enough to wear a coat or jacket in the summer.
Except that the quote HG was referring to was about the coats and jackets being pulled on as they approached Kings Cross, so they don't have the excuse of the Scottish Highlands weather there.  

Soli, yes it's entirely possible that robes could be pulled on over clothes and then changing happens underneath. That kind of thing happens on beaches all the time. There are even special towels with an elasticated head hole designed for that very purpose!  

Julia makes some very sensible points. I can definitely imagine students wearing some kind of thermal underwear, perhaps including long johns and warm vests, under their robes in the winter. We know socks are definitely worn in the wizarding world, and tights and leggings are another possibility.

I think what's clear is that students do NOT wear school uniform style trousers or skirts, white shirts, House jumpers or ties.

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Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  azi on Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:36 pm

Scotland is usually a few degrees cooler than the rest of the UK (this last week excepted!). When I last went there on a major holiday at about 10 years old - in August - I remember torrential rain and being cold and bored while my parents looked for a prehistoric site on the side of a hill. Photos show us in coats so it was obviously cool enough for that.

Even in England, it can be cold enough to need jackets in summer. Not winter coats but hoodies and suchlike. I was still wearing a fleece and two t-shirts at work until a couple of weeks ago, when our 'heatwave' started.
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Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Hieronymus Graubart on Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:53 pm

shepherdess wrote:I don't know; I see it differently. Generally kids who are growing up, with bodies that are changing, tend to be self-conscious about having people see them without clothes on.
Now I understand why there are curtains on the four-poster-beds in the dormitories (we didn't have these when we had to sleep in dormitories on school excursions more than forty years ago). And now I would have a good reason to start re-reading from Book 1 again to watch whether the shy boys make good use of those curtains .

Pulling on the trousers before taking off the robes on the way back from Hogwarts would definitely be an option the editor hadn't thought of when he changed this line . I don't get how girls can take off a sweater under a robe, although I have seen similar actions been done. It's probably one of many male disabilities.

Since the train arrives at Hogsmeade after sunset, and in the first year it was chilly enough for Neville to wear a cloak, it would probably not be too uncomfortable to keep the trousers on under the robes. So it seems Ron really just wanted to make the annoying Hermione go away .

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Re: Still Unanswered Questions

Post  Solitaire on Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:03 pm

Hieronymus Graubart wrote:Now I understand why there are curtains on the four-poster-beds in the dormitories (we didn't have these when we had to sleep in dormitories on school excursions more than forty years ago).
And here I thought Hieronymus was a teenager ... another Finn, perhaps! Embarassed 

Actually, I thought the curtains were for warmth as much as privacy--if there is also a canopy above--as they would make a kind of "smaller room" which would keep in any warmth the body exudes. (That tells you how little I know!)

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Re: Still Unanswered Questions

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