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Wizangamot Trial (Part II): Severus Snape

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Wizangamot Trial (Part II):  Severus Snape Empty Wizangamot Trial (Part II): Severus Snape

Post  Lady Arabella Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:47 pm

The following is an archive of material originally posted on the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum, hosted by World Crossing, which ceased operations on April 15, 2011
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Wizangamot Trial (Part II):  Severus Snape Empty Re: Wizangamot Trial (Part II): Severus Snape

Post  Lady Arabella Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:49 pm

Wizengamot Trial (Part II): Severus Snape

S.E. Jones - Jan 9, 2007 6:06 pm
Edited Jan 31, 2007 1:40 am

NOTE: There will be a third part to this poll.

Wizengamot Trial (Part II): Severus Snape:

After being found not guilty of the charge of being a supporter of the Dark Lord, Severus Snape is being tried yet again by the Wizengamot. This time he is being charged with the murder of Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore. The evidence is presented in the form of eye witness accounts from Harry Potter (who also provided a Pensieve memory), Professor Filius Flitwick, Hermione Granger, Luna Lovegood, Nymphadora Tonks, Remus Lupin, and Professor Minerva McGonagall who testified to the whereabouts and activity of Mr. Snape on the night in question. Professor M. McGonagall and Narcissa Malfoy also provided information as character witnesses, commenting on Snape's past as a Death Eater, Dumbledore's supposed respect for him, and possible motive. Mr. Snape refused to take the stand in his own defense. You are a member of the Wizengamot, meeting to decide on a verdict after hearing all the testimony and viewing the Pensieve memory. What is your opinion? (Please only pick the one that best fits your opinion.)

   A - Not guilty. Dumbledore did not die as a result of what Snape did (Dumbledore was already 'dead' when Snape Avada Kedavraed him, the spell was a dud and it was the fall that killed him, or what the witnesses thought they saw didn't happen).
   B - Not Guilty by reason of Self Defense. Snape was acting in Self Defense due to the direct threat of the Unbreakable Vow or to prevent harm to himself and Draco as they were surrounded by known Death Eaters.
   C - Guilty, with mitigating circumstances. Snape was ordered by Dumbledore to kill him or the act was condoned by Dumbledore to save Draco or Snape or to prevent something even worse from happening as a result of having Death Eaters inside Hogwarts.
   D - Guilty. Snape wanted Dumbledore dead for whatever reason.

(Based on a suggestion by John Bumbledore and rambkowalczyk)

This poll will be closed sometime after 12pm (server time) on January 30, 2007.

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juliebug - Jan 9, 2007 7:14 pm (#1 of 52)

I definitely say Snape is guilty and I think I'd have to say D as well. No matter what arguements anyone might make, the fact remains that Dumebledore died by Snape's hand. There is hearsay concerning noble reasoning and Dumbledore's own permission to committ the act, but it does not change the fact that a murder was committed.

ps. Woo-hoo, I posted first (never happened for me before )

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Thom Matheson - Jan 9, 2007 7:23 pm (#2 of 52)

Juliebug, I second that emotion. A resounding D. What is not mentioned in the case is whether or not Mr. Snape's wand was checked via Priori Incatatum, but never the less, Guilty as charged. " I have heard that the dementor's kiss is unbearable to watch, but I'll do my best".

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geauxtigers - Jan 9, 2007 7:24 pm (#3 of 52)

I'm torn between C and D, why C? Because I'm positive that there was a master plan that night and I think that its very possible that for whatever reason, Snape was ordered to kill Dumbledore. But on the other hand, murder is murder, plan or not. I think I'll go with D also, because Snape wanted Dumbledore dead for whatever reason, that reason could have been because of the plan, but it could be that Snape is 100% evil and such as well. So I think D, fits what I think the best, (though C could also work.)

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Finn BV - Jan 9, 2007 9:01 pm (#4 of 52)

Well, Dumbledore's definitely dead, so it's between C or D; I'm in he good-Snape camp so C it is then.

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virginiaelizabeth - Jan 9, 2007 9:12 pm (#5 of 52)

I'm torn between A and C. I'm still convinced that Draught of Living Death will play into it somehow. Plus the AK was fishy. If it was a real AK, then why did it blast Dumbledore up and over the rampart? I also don't think that Dumbledore would ever order someone to kill him. If it was absolutely necessary for Dumbledore to die, I think he'd kill himself before he'd order someone else to do it. He wouldn't want someone to tear their soul, But I do think it was part of a plan.

I'l go with A

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Mediwitch - Jan 9, 2007 10:34 pm (#6 of 52)

I have to go with D for now, but ask me again after I read HP and the Deathly Hallows!

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Elanor - Jan 9, 2007 11:16 pm (#7 of 52)

I'll go with 'A', though I don't think the AK was a "dud". I do like the idea that DD had the real locket on him at that time and that Snape's AK destroyed the part of Voldemort's soul concealed in the real locket. But I think DD was already dying when Snape casted the AK, and that either the potion or the fall killed him in the end.

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S.E. Jones - Jan 10, 2007 12:09 am (#8 of 52)

Personally, I'm not sure exactly what went on that night, and I do agree there was more to the circumstances surrounding Dumbledore's death than we know, but I definitely think Snape killed Dumbledore with the AK. However, I don't think there was necessarily any malice in Snape's actions, so, since I skipped the poll about what the charge would be and skipped to the verdict, I'm going to vote for C, guilty but with mitigating circumstances.

I have heard that the dementor's kiss is unbearable to watch, but I'll do my best.

Thom, don't get too far ahead of the rest of us. The sentence comes after the Wizengamot reaches a verdict, don't forget.

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Mrs Brisbee - Jan 10, 2007 4:45 am (#9 of 52)

Although C is a possibility, I cannot conclude it to be a "reasonable" verdict, since I'm here as a member of the Wizengamot and not as a reader. I have to go by the evidence, not by what Rowling might reveal in a book I don't yet have. The only reason I entertain C is because it seems like something Rowling might do, and since she's not on the witness list....

D is my answer, with no reasonable doubts in attendance.

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TomProffitt - Jan 10, 2007 5:54 am (#10 of 52)

From what we know now I think that we have to go with D, guilty, but if I was Severus's lawyer I'd be demanding to look at the autopsy results. I think after DH the results will be different.

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azi - Jan 10, 2007 6:26 am (#11 of 52)

I am torn between C and D. C because it seems there is more than there appears to this, but have we heard any evidence of that other than some snippets of conversation?

I'll go with D.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jan 10, 2007 6:59 am (#12 of 52)

In the light of the evidence we have at the moment it has to be D. Will this pole rerun after book 7? I hope not as I'm sure Gina would love visiting rights to Azkaban Wink

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haymoni - Jan 10, 2007 7:44 am (#13 of 52)

I agree with Phelim - based solely on the testimony listed above, he has to be guilty, so D.

However, we readers know more than that...so bring on DH!!!

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Liz Mann - Jan 10, 2007 7:53 am (#14 of 52)

I vote for C. I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest that he was working on Dumbledore's orders - the fact that Dumbledore didn't seem concerned that Snape was under an Unbreakable Vow (his exact words were that he believes he understands the matter better than Harry), the argument Hagrid overheard, and the fact that it doesn't make sense for Dumbledore to be begging Snape not to kill him because he was previously defending Snape and had no reason to suddenly not trust him anymore.

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Thom Matheson - Jan 10, 2007 8:02 am (#15 of 52)

Sorry Sarah, I saw an opening for my absolute favorite line in the entire series.

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Madame Pomfrey - Jan 10, 2007 9:44 am (#16 of 52)

D. At this point,If Dumbledore is truly dead then all evidence points to Snape having committed his murder.Eyewitnesses are pretty much concrete.

I wish we could have an autopsy report!

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Anna L. Black - Jan 10, 2007 12:36 pm (#17 of 52)

Well, I'm sure that Snape AK'd Dumbledore, but I do think that it wasn't all that it appeared. So, I'm going with C.

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Esther Rose - Jan 10, 2007 12:46 pm (#18 of 52)

The wand was pointed. Snape said the words. The green light was sent.

Snape is guilty of killing Dumbledore.

After all we don't know if Snape had a bezoar hidden in his pocket or not. (He might not have been a potion master at the time but I think it would be more Snape like to have a basic antidote on his person at all times.)

The question that remains is whether Snape killed Dumbledore for his own purposes or for the protection of someone else.

The only evidence that I can currently see is Snape killing Dumbledore to protect his unbreakable vow. Had Snape not killed Dumbledore and Dumbledore survived, Draco and his family would have been in grave danger. We have already seen more than once that it is not a good thing to be a death eater (or a death nibbler) and defy Voldemort. The result of this is almost always death.

So my answer is D. Because not killing Dumbledore could have resulted in murders of the Malfoys and as a result Snape would have died. In that light, Snape killed Dumbledore to save his own life.

D.

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journeymom - Jan 10, 2007 1:58 pm (#19 of 52)

D. I have to go with Mrs B's reasoning. I'm a Snape supporter but based upon the evidence provided, no speculation allowed, it is clear that Snape killed Dumbledore.

I like the idea that the AK was a dud. You have to really mean it. Maybe he didn't really mean it, and Dumbledore was counting on that. But that doesn't let Snape off the hook. It just means he pushed Dumbledore to his death.

By the way, I'd add Rubius Hagrid to the list of witnesses and those that can testify about Snape's character.

Thom, doesn't Alan Rickman deliver that line so well?

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Finn BV - Jan 10, 2007 4:14 pm (#20 of 52)

As a member of the Mock Trial team at my school, I can tell you that most of the evidence is hearsay and that most (if not all) of the witnesses are biased, including the third-person omniscient narrator that JKR is. Just trying to throw some fancy-shmancy words out to confused the Wizengamot.

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journeymom - Jan 10, 2007 5:18 pm (#21 of 52)

Hey, who you callin' confused!

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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 10, 2007 7:07 pm (#22 of 52)

A

(in a semi-squeaky wizened voice): I agree with Finn BV that most of the evidence is hearsay excluding Harry's pensieve memory. And, in viewing this memory, and knowing Albus Dumbledore as well as I do, I believe what Harry saw was not all of the story. Certainly his health was critical on the Tower, death seemed imminent. Albus Dumbledore would never demand someone commit murder. Further, if Albus trusted Severus, then we, the Wizengamot, must take that into consideration based upon track record alone. According to Albus, Severus was committed to him and the cause of defeating You Know Who. Therefore, based upon the memory as sole credible evidence, I surmise Albus spent the better part of the 12 months prior to his death planning and preparing for such death, which occurred independently of Severus's actions.

~edited for clarity

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Chemyst - Jan 10, 2007 7:11 pm (#23 of 52)

D — Even though there were undoubtedly mitigating circumstances, I wouldn't have a membership in the Ministry's Wizengamot if I didn't know how to play ministry politics. It is best for the Ministry if he is found guilty; especially since Mr. Snape refused to make a defense. Snape wanted Dumbledore dead for whatever reason, and chose not to explain that reason. If the Ministry gets a "guilty" verdict, we can all put this behind us and move on.

...now if I weren't a member of the Wizengamot and had simply heard the gossip when the kids came home for summer break and read the account in The Quibbler, I may feel differently.

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septentrion - Jan 11, 2007 4:01 am (#24 of 52)

I'm sure the threat of the Unbreakable Vow played is part in Snape's gesture. I'm not sure the AK worked, but undoubtedly, Snape was the direct cause of DD's death. However, I can't imagine DD asking some one to tear their soul apart. I go for B, I believe Snape is selfish enough to kill to save his own skin, and cunning enough to find a way to help the Order - if he's on their side - afterward.

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mona amon - Jan 11, 2007 5:10 am (#25 of 52)

Well, all the evidence, and the pensieve memory, clearly point to 'D'. But as a firm believer in 'C', I demand that Aberforth Dumbledore be called in to give evidence. I'm sure his brother told him about the plan.

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TomProffitt - Jan 11, 2007 7:56 am (#26 of 52)

Is it rude and incorrect for me to post an opinion about one of the voting options after I have already posted my vote?

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Esther Rose - Jan 11, 2007 8:54 am (#27 of 52)

Tom I think the best option would be to post your opinion on the poll results discussion. Even though the results to the poll has not come out yet. I could be wrong though.

Perhaps it's title should be changed to "Poll Discussion".

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Thom Matheson - Jan 11, 2007 12:26 pm (#28 of 52)

I think that Sarah wanted to keep our opinions quiet as I remember her requirements

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Mattew Bates - Jan 11, 2007 12:47 pm (#29 of 52)

D. We have no evidence of any mitigating circumstances, and I'm not sure we will ever get it.

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LaLex - Jan 11, 2007 4:09 pm (#30 of 52)

I firmly believe Dumbledore would never be the kind of person to kill himself. If he was killed by the fall it is still Snape's responsibility. The witnesses were too close: what they thought they saw did happen - they might just have interpreted wrongly on some account.

Snape does seem to have acted in protection of Draco's well-being and therefore of himself, being under threat of the Unbreakable Vow. But evidence on his character, previous association with the Death Eaters movement and past behaviour in general shed a reasonable doubt on the strength of his of self-preservation, hence questioning the acceptability of such motive alone.

There is certainly more on this story than what evidence the Wizengamot was able to gather. I agree with calling Aberforth Dumbledore foreward to testify.

The fact that Snape wouldn't come the stand suggests that his motives were diverse and possibly deemed undisclosable at this time: if it was as simple as "he wanted Dumbledore dead for whatever reason" he would have plead gulty and enjoyed the privileges granted for cooperation. Moreover, the fact that He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named has not of yet come to violently reclaim the freedom of his champion suggests that he himselfs has doubts regarding Snape's loyalties; yet, if He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named has not of yet sent someone to kill his traitor, it suggests that he must still be convinced that at least Snape's loyalties are not to Dumbledore.

Hence, all considered, my vote goes to C.

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Vulture - Jan 12, 2007 9:08 am (#31 of 52)

OK, here's the best I can do between the choices offered. Make of it what ye will:

A - Not guilty. Dumbledore did not die as a result of what Snape did (Dumbledore was already 'dead' when Snape Avada Kedavraed him, the spell was a dud and it was the fall that killed him, or what the witnesses thought they saw didn't happen).

_ I'm fairly sure that Dumbledore did die as a result of what Snape did; however, to return a definite "Guilty" verdict, I'd have to be sure beyond a reasonable doubt.

B - Not Guilty by reason of Self Defense. Snape was acting in Self Defense due to the direct threat of the Unbreakable Vow or to prevent harm to himself and Draco as they were surrounded by known Death Eaters.

_ I can't accept or reject B, because I disagree with the assumptions behind it. Neither (a) killing Dumbledore to escape "the direct threat of the Unbreakable Vow" nor (b) killing Dumbledore "to prevent harm to himself and Draco as they were surrounded by known Death Eaters" constitutes Self-Defence. Self-defence would only be an issue if Dumbledore had been trying to kill Snape !!

C - Guilty, with mitigating circumstances. Snape was ordered by Dumbledore to kill him or the act was condoned by Dumbledore to save Draco or Snape or to prevent something even worse from happening as a result of having Death Eaters inside Hogwarts.

_ I regard Option C as coherent and precise. But (for reasons many long-suffering Lexicon fans will have heard elsewhere) I reject it !!

D - Guilty. Snape wanted Dumbledore dead for whatever reason.

_ I regard Option D as coherent and precise also. I can't, however, be sure beyond a reasonable doubt that it's true.

In old Scottish law, there used to be three, not two, possible verdicts: Guilty, Not Guilty, and Not Proven. The last one, as I understand it, arose when everyone was pretty damn sure the accused was guilty, but couldn't be sure beyond a reasonable doubt. The accused would walk free, but under a cloud. I think it might have been a good idea to have had a "Not Proven" option in this poll.

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Liz Mann - Jan 12, 2007 3:04 pm (#32 of 52)

I have a question - is this poll about whether we the readers believe he is guilty or not, or if we would find him so were we a member of the Wizengamot in the world of the books?

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journeymom - Jan 12, 2007 5:06 pm (#33 of 52)

Liz, in her set-up Sarah said, " You are a member of the Wizengamot, meeting to decide on a verdict after hearing all the testimony and viewing the Pensieve memory. What is your opinion? "

Is Wizengamot law different from present-day Scottish law?

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Pamzter - Jan 12, 2007 5:54 pm (#34 of 52)

C - Mitigating circumstances - but not necessarily the circumstances indicated here.

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Detail Seeker - Jan 13, 2007 2:07 pm (#35 of 52)

D - based on all the positive evidence we have.

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Lavandula - Jan 13, 2007 6:12 pm (#36 of 52)

Based strictly upon the evidence the Wizengamot has been able to hear, I can only have one verdict-D

However, as a reader I would make other verdicts. That is for us to determine in book 7 when we get to hear Snape's side of the story.

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Xela - Jan 15, 2007 1:27 pm (#37 of 52)

A

The cause of death was not the curse. It was the potion or the fall.

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Good Evans - Jan 18, 2007 10:19 am (#38 of 52)

I vote C

I am swayed by the suggested evidence that Snape and Dumbledore had a trust which basis was known only to them. I beleive that this pact is still in place at this time (hence Snape not taking the stand in his own defence), and as unlilkely as it seems Snape was acting on orders. I interpret from the penseive memory a plea to Snape from Dumbledore to cast the spell. I am not sure that "murder" is the correct term, however as assisted suicide in the UK is not legal (and would be a better term for the result of the evidence I see before me) I must therefore vote guilty with mitigating circumstances.

C

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John Bumbledore - Jan 18, 2007 10:35 am (#39 of 52)

D He is guilty. I have no doubt about it.

John Bumbledore <)B^D˜

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Ginerva Potter - Jan 18, 2007 11:03 am (#40 of 52)

It is a toss-up for me between A and C.

I'm going with A. What if Dumbledore had never found Snape on the night in question? Would he have died from the potion? I think it's possible he might have. Snape couldn't have saved Dumbledore with the Deatheaters at Hogwarts, so my vote is A.

Ginny

On another note, Finn - you're hilarious! I loved your fancy schmancy terminology!

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S.E. Jones - Jan 21, 2007 12:11 am (#41 of 52)

TomProffitt --Is it rude and incorrect for me to post an opinion about one of the voting options after I have already posted my vote?—

Tom, I suppose it depends on whether what you're going to say is rude or incorrect. You're certainly free to offer an opinion on voting options. If you want to discuss the poll, you can do that within the thread designated for that poll as long as certain criteria are met: 1) keep the discussion on topic; 2) no chat-type posts; 3) don't step on someone else's opinion, people can vote however they want; 4) if you want to discuss the results or compare two different polls go to the Poll/Result discussion thread.

Vulture --In old Scottish law, there used to be three, not two, possible verdicts: Guilty, Not Guilty, and Not Proven.—

Vulture, I'm quite aware of the 'Not Proven' option in Scottish law but considering few Scots even today know how the this option works and the majority of the membership hails from countries other than Scotland and thus aren't familiar with it, I didn't think it wise to provide the third option.

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kaykay1970 - Jan 22, 2007 6:57 am (#42 of 52)

I'm going with D, guilty!

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Luna Logic - Jan 22, 2007 2:10 pm (#43 of 52)

What I think is that Dumbledore was mortally "wounded" by the potion and that his suffering was unbearable. So I vote C : C - Guilty, with mitigating circumstances.

I will say, Snape was ordered by Dumbledore to kill him according to a previous plan. And according to additions made by Dumbledore, that Snape knew by Legilimency

For what ? I wonder... - to save Draco : yes, but could it be the only motive ?

- to save Snape : yes but what for ? what use to the Order could he be in tome 7 ? (I don't imagine at the moment)...

- "to prevent something even worse from happening as a result of having Death Eaters inside Hogwarts"?. But Snape didn't prevent anything after Dumbledore death...

Something with Harry ? a role of Snape with Harry, later ? (Doubts, here).

So I trust Dumbledore, but he left us in the mist.

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Nicholas Schouten - Jan 23, 2007 4:59 pm (#44 of 52)

A - Not guilty. Dumbledore did not die as a result of what Snape did.

DD said he trusted Snape. I'm sure that came out in the testimony. If it's good enough for DD, it's good enough for me!

-Nick

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Sticky Glue - Jan 23, 2007 9:09 pm (#45 of 52)

I have to go with "C"

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rambkowalczyk - Jan 24, 2007 8:00 am (#46 of 52)

A Not guilty

I was a little surprise that you did not include guilty but not premeditated. That would have been my answer at the time I came up with the questions. But I keep changing my mind.

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Madam Pince - Jan 29, 2007 11:29 pm (#47 of 52)

Going with the evidence presented to the Wizengamot, and with the outlines given in the wording of this question, I suppose I would have to vote C, as a member of the Wizengamot. Same reasoning as Good Evans and LaLex.

However, as a reader of the series, I definitely feel it is A.

(By the way, I'm not quite sure what Pensieve memory was provided by Harry -- is it his memory of how events unfolded up on the tower? Or of Dumbledore drinking the potion in the cave? Or is that your means of covering that "the Wizengamot knows everything that we, as readers, know"? Sorry, I'm probably being dense... )

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jan 30, 2007 6:04 am (#48 of 52)

D

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wynnleaf - Jan 30, 2007 8:26 am (#49 of 52)

It's a toss-up to me between A and C. But if on the Wizengamot I was observing the pensieve evidence, I'd be able to see all the evidence described in the book. As I picture it, I'd be seeing Snape point his wand and say the words and see the green flash. So the spell itself would have the right look at first. But nothing about the body would look like what I'd expect either from an AK or from a fall from a tower. No immediately crumpling body with eyes wide open and staring. Instead a body flying up into the air (not even slammed backwards into the wall against which he was leaning). No damage to the body on the ground. Blood flowing slightly. Glass slightly askew.

Problem would be for me: Snape's actions with the wand and the right words look like an AK, but none of the effects look like an AK. Last, I'd really, really, have to ask who examined the body after death, since we appear to have no evidence about that at all. Here I'd sit at a trial in which after a few people stood around the body for a few minutes at the bottom of the tower, we never even have a confirmation from a specific person as to who checked over the body or that the body was truly dead. If I was actually deciding a trial, I'd consider that some crucial info.

So...

A

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MickeyCee3948 - Jan 30, 2007 11:55 am (#50 of 52)

C Subject to revision after DH comes out.

Mickey

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sstabeler - Jan 30, 2007 3:16 pm (#51 of 52)

my reaction would be D, with serious reservations about the spell used. possibly even C, I don't know. personally, it looks too much like the AK was covering a lesser spell, however, it would be important to know the intent of Snape casting whatever other spell, was he trying to cast a banishing charm, for instance, to cause a longer death? or disarming? there are too many questions for my liking.

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S.E. Jones - Jan 31, 2007 2:19 am (#52 of 52)

I'm closing out this poll so I can tally the results.

Results: 42 Votes; most voted for answer in red.

Question: You are a member of the Wizengamot, meeting to decide on a verdict after hearing all the testimony and viewing the Pensieve memory. What is your opinion? (Please only pick the one that best fits your opinion.)

   A - 9 of 42; 21.4% - Not guilty. Dumbledore did not die as a result of what Snape did (Dumbledore was already 'dead' when Snape Avada Kedavraed him, the spell was a dud and it was the fall that killed him, or what the witnesses thought they saw didn't happen).
   B - 1 of 42; 2.4% - Not Guilty by reason of Self Defense. Snape was acting in Self Defense due to the direct threat of the Unbreakable Vow or to prevent harm to himself and Draco as they were surrounded by known Death Eaters.
   C - 11 of 42; 26.2% - Guilty, with mitigating circumstances. Snape was ordered by Dumbledore to kill him or the act was condoned by Dumbledore to save Draco or Snape or to prevent something even worse from happening as a result of having Death Eaters inside Hogwarts.
   D - 21 of 42; 50.0% - Guilty. Snape wanted Dumbledore dead for whatever reason.



EDIT: Madam Pince: Or is that your means of covering that "the Wizengamot knows everything that we, as readers, know"?

Sorry I couldn't get back to you before the poll closed, but yes that was my attempt at covering everything the reader knows.
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