James & Lily Potter

Mona on Wed May 11, 2011 10:28 am

James & Lily Potter
A-is-for-Amy - Aug 29, 2003 2:16 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 17, 2005 3:52 am
I changed this thread from "James & Lily" to "James & Lily Potter" - Kip

While re-reading OoP, I was struck with and idea about James and Lily.

When Harry tells the Dursley's that it was Dementors that attacked Dudley, Petunia lets it slip that she knows what they are. I would assume that she learned this from spying on Lily and her 'boyfriend' since she seems to love to evesdrop and gossip so much. My thought was, "Why would James be visiting Lily and discussing Azkaban and Dementors?" Was it just because VWI was going on, or what? They would have had to be discussing it at length for Petunia to understand what they were talking about.

Mona on Wed May 11, 2011 10:38 am

Sly Girl - Aug 29, 2003 6:26 pm (#1 of 1326)
I had the same thought, Amy. It struck me as a weird thing for her to remember/overhear. I don't have answer though.

Haggis and Irn Bru - Aug 30, 2003 3:07 am (#2 of 1326)
James and Lily did not start to go out until they were in year 7. At this stage Petunias bittterness and resentment of Lily and the magical world would probably be well established. I guess the girls must have still been staying at there parents house otherwise Petunia would not have met James willingly. Maybee james and Lily made her listen to the discussion or were delibratly trying to provoke her. i cant see Petunia just trying to overhear them.

Professor Kosh - Aug 30, 2003 7:36 am (#3 of 1326)
I don't think James and Lily were trying to provoke her. The subject of that discussion would be serious, and I don't see them using something like that just to provoke her.

JKR has intimated that there is more to Petunia than so far revealed. I think Petunia is more than just a resentful Muggle sister. OoP revealed that. Her animosity IS real, but she knows more. I've wondered in Lily and Petunia's parents weren't Muggles, but Squibs. It is thus possible that Lily would be the only witch in the family, with Petunia also being a Squib. Petunia would then resent the wizarding world (as does Filtch) but to an even greater degree, with sibling rivalry and unequal parental affection further stoking the fires. Yet, she would still know of things like Azkaban and even know of Dumbledore (she knows him in some capacity, for sure, as in OoP)

There is more to Petunia, and I can't wait to find out!

fidelio - Aug 30, 2003 7:47 am (#4 of 1326)
This is purely theoretical, but you all will forgive that, right? After you finish sorting through the theory and discarding the unbelievable bits, of course.

By the way, I suspect that Petunia is a few years older than Lily--not sure why, it just seems that way.

When the DEs were rampaging around, attacking and killing people, could there have been an attack on Lily's family? If so, the DE's involved, if caught, would have been sent off to Azkaban, and Petunia might have been aware of this. Alternatively, the DEs may not have been caught, but Lily might have assured Petunia that if they were that's where they'd go--complete with a lurid description of Azkaban's less-attractive features. If there was an attack, it might have pushed Petunia from indifferent/perplexed to Lily's schooling, abilities and friends to actively hostile--"So this is the sort of thing these people do!" "No, Petunia, not all of them. Some of them are quite nice, really." "Lily, nice people don't do things like this! I never want to hear anything about magic again!"

Feel free to disbelieve this--there is, after all, no proof in the canon!

Professor Kosh - Aug 30, 2003 9:44 am (#5 of 1326)
Hadn't thought of that fidelio. You make a good point. Although there's no proof in the canon, nothing against it either! Also, it does a good job of explaining Petunia's knowledge of Azkaban and her attitude toward magic. However, her attitude isn't quite consistant with that explaination only. Her feelings seem more of disdain/disgust with a some fear. If what you proposed were true, I'd expect more fear and some outright rage and hatred. And, under no circumstances, would she expose her family, especially Dudley, to that! While we know that DD somehow got Petunia to accept Potter as a child, we don't know the circumstances, and if fidelio's idea were true, I don't think DD could have pursuded her to expose her family to the danger she would have percieved w/ the wizarding world.

Sly Girl - Aug 30, 2003 2:48 pm (#6 of 1326)
One thing though.. it's not Lily that tells Petunia about Azkaban.. it's James and Petunia definitely says 'I heard that awful boy telling her about them.'

Let's face it- Petunia has always been a busybody- it's evident in the way Harry notices her spying on the neighbors, paying attention to the movie star and starlet wife getting divorced (and then pretending she knew nothing about it). My guess is, she was spying on Lily and James and she over heard them speaking. The real question is, why would James and Lily be talking about Azkaban. Surely by 7th year, Lily would know that already?

OkieAngel - Aug 30, 2003 11:36 pm (#7 of 1326)
I think Petunia is a squib who was/is horribly jealous of her sisters's talent and their parents acceptance of Lily's lifestyle. Also, another theory that has been niggling at the back of my brain...what if Petunia had had a crush on James, and a young arrogant James, having no use for a squib, wasn't very tactful in dealing with it?? Whatever the case may be, there is more to her than meets the eye. She knows more about the wizarding world than she lets on.

Hem Hem - Aug 30, 2003 11:53 pm (#8 of 1326)
It's possible that she knew about Azkaban but not the dementors, after all, with a different Minister in those days, he might not have been as keen with the dementors as Fudge is.

Perhaps the Potters had a friend who is now gone who underwent some dementor experience...

Which makes one name pop into my mind--Cadaroc Dearborn. He's the old Order member whose body was never found, and nobody knows where he went. The fact that his death is unconfirmed screams that there's more to be learned about this dude.

S.E. Jones - Aug 31, 2003 6:36 am (#9 of 1326)
Sly: "The real question is, why would James and Lily be talking about Azkaban. Surely by 7th year, Lily would know that already?"

Why would she know about it? I mean, Harry wouldn't have known about it if Sirius hadn't have broken out, right? Or, could this have been when the Dementors started at Azkaban? If they were just getting started, James might have been telling Lily about what their position there would be....

BTW, this conversation must have happened either the summer before or the summer after seventh year, right? If Lily and Petunia were both still living at home, that means her parents were still alive then. It brings the question up, once again, of just what did happen to Grandmum and Granddad Evans. Also, could this point to there being more time between when James and Lily graduated and when they married than we thought?

OkieAngel - Aug 31, 2003 9:24 am (#10 of 1326)
I was under the distinct impression that James and Lily married straight out of Hogwarts, which was unusual in the wizarding world given their young ages. Could this have been because of VW1? I think so, make haste while the sun still shines kinda thing. Just my opinion...

Dr Filibuster - Aug 31, 2003 10:58 am (#11 of 1326)
JK's parents were married and had her when they were 20 years old didn't they? That's why I pictured James and Lily being so young. That and the fact that she said Snape was 35 or 36 by the end of Goblet of Fire.

Catatonic Reaction - Aug 31, 2003 10:21 pm (#12 of 1326)
I agree that the Evans family may have been squibs, and Petunia also a squib (allowing her to see dementors and know what they are, since a squib can see magical creatures then they must have some education on them..). Or maybe it's possible for a squib to be born to muggles, obviously that's a long stretch given the definition that Ron gives in the books. But if a squib is a person born to a magical family without magic, then why can they see magical creatures when muggles who also have no magic can't? Perhaps a squib is just a wizard who is so weak that their magic can't produce a proper spell. Filch did have quick-spell which may show that he has magic in him, but can't use it.

Hem Hem - Aug 31, 2003 10:27 pm (#13 of 1326)
Welcome to the Forum, Catatonic Reaction. For discussion about the magical status of Squibs, check out the "Squibs! What is Done with Them?" thread below.

night41 - Sep 1, 2003 7:31 pm (#14 of 1326)
Does James come from a pureblood family??

Sly Girl - Sep 1, 2003 9:15 pm (#15 of 1326)
Yes, I believe he does. But I don't think it's truly been answered, has it? Anyone else?

Hem Hem - Sep 1, 2003 10:43 pm (#16 of 1326)
If he weren't pureblood, it would have been just another reason for Snape to have hated him back in school. Basically, we have no evidence, but if he weren't a pureblood, we'd have some indication of that by now, I'd expect.

TGF - Sep 2, 2003 12:04 am (#17 of 1326)
I'd expect old Snivellus to spit it out at him for one thing... During his little memory that is. I mean, he called Lily Mudblood, rather than James... You'd think he'd use the mudblood line on the closest mudblood, rather than saving it for the girl that rescues him.

OkieAngel - Sep 2, 2003 12:16 am (#18 of 1326)
There's no evidence to say either way, really. We know that Lily was from a Muggle family because of Petunia. We know that there aren't anymore Potter's left. I didn't think there was any Evans's left until we heard about little Mark Evans in OoP. If he has any relevance remains to be seen. What happened to all the Potter's? I'm waiting to find out like everyone else. Personally, I think Petunia is a squib, and knows much more than she lets on...but that's another thread...

TGF - Sep 2, 2003 12:20 am (#19 of 1326)
If Petunia were a squib, then Lily wouldn't be a mudblood. Impossible, Okie, why would Snape yell 'Mudblood' at Lily if she weren't a mudblood? That makes zero sense... Again, I believe that Potter was relatively pure, though as you say, there's no real evidence for that other than what I said above about Snape not calling him a mudblood.

OkieAngel - Sep 2, 2003 12:41 am (#20 of 1326)
Sure there is, there could be muggles anywhere throughout the generations. As far as I can perceive, even just one muggle in an otherwise pure wizard family could "contaminate" the line. Therein lies the confusion that many fans have over whether Harry is pureblood or half blood. He was born of a witch and a wizard, so could he be considered pureblood?? Lily was a muggle born witch however, and we know so little about James' family line, it's uncertain. JKR makes a point however to say that it's not who your family is, it's your choices that define who you are...so i wonder if we will ever really know.

TGF - Sep 2, 2003 12:54 am (#21 of 1326)
He's half blood.

It would seem that both 'Wizard/Witch + Muggle' and 'Wizard + Muggle-born witch or vice versa' result in what is called a half blood. This we know for certain, as Dumbledore said at the end of OotP that Voldemort 'attacked the half-blood, the one most like him' etc. Unless you want to talk about Lily having a Muggle's child illegitimately, I think that's settled.

This would also connotate that James was pureblood.

These are all still words that mean little. Malfoy's as pure as you get and that didn't stop him from being thoroughly beaten by a witch with one year less of magic experience... And Hermione is second only to Harry. Again, meaningless words...

S.E. Jones - Sep 2, 2003 7:57 pm (#22 of 1326)
Actually, JK has outright stated that Lily is muggle-born and Harry is a half-blood and that's why people like the Malfoy's will never see him as a proper wizard. I think the way James acted as a youngster might point to him being pureblooded. This is a world where it would seem that most of the wealthier, more aristocratic-like families are the purebloods and he struck me as someone who may have been raised in such an atmosphere, much like Sirius and Draco.

Grant the Great - Sep 3, 2003 10:11 pm (#23 of 1326)
I think for sure that James is a pureblood (again, I'm an Heir of Gryffindor fan; has that already been discussed? probably.). Anway, I also believe that the Evans' (grandparents) may have gotten a little goodnight kiss from our favorite hooded creatures. This would definitely cause a remembrance in Petunia that would have stuck (I think that if she eavesdropped, it would have been enough to soak in enough of the wizarding world that dementers would be a small fact). That would explain the loss of Lily's parents, as well as a more forceful bitterment by Petunia to her parents (their favoritism of Lily and the wizarding world could be blamed for the loss of their souls).

This brings up the question: what do you do with people who've had their "first kiss?" Also, I think it would be hilarious if Mrs. Evans' first name was "Rose."

OkieAngel - Sep 4, 2003 12:04 am (#24 of 1326)
I'm with you Grant on the Heir of Gryffindor theory. There is so much evidence pointing towards that, but I'm sure that's another thread. I've never considered that the Evanses could've been kissed, just always considered them casualties of the war. I wonder if there's a special ward at St. Mungo's for "Kiss" victims, and if so, how long does a person live like that??

Professor Kosh - Sep 4, 2003 11:07 am (#25 of 1326)
Why would the Evanses be kissed? The very fact that dementors were placed in charge of Azkaban means that they likely weren't on Voldemort's side the first time (why put his allies in charge of the prison?). I think it unlikely that they would have been trusted to guard the prison had they had attacked muggles. They may be working for Volde now, but I don't think they did so in the past (maybe he just didn't go for them yet, or they were on the sidelines and neutral).

As for the Heir of Gryffindor theory, why would he have to be a pureblood to be so? Volde was the Heir of Slytherin, and he wasn't. I guess Harry is now, and he isn't as well.

As for James being a pureblood, perhaps so, but where are the rest of his family? (Harry's inheritance in Gringotts may be all thats left of the 'aristocratic' Potters). I don't think the Potters were very aristocratic in behavior, or they wouldn't have taken in Sirius so easily. I see them more as better-off-Weasley-types. Perhaps they were aristocrats once, but I don't think that was true in James's parents. His arrogant attitude could simply come from his popularity, his 'gifted'-ness, and his being a Quiddich star. His attitude could be that of a jock! (his treatment of Snape reminds me of some of my former teammates in school).

haymoni - Sep 4, 2003 12:29 pm (#26 of 1326)
What house was Lily in? I know Hagrid says that she was Head Girl and James was Head Boy. Would the Head Girl & Head Boy have been from the same house? (If this has been discussed elsewhere, let me know.)

Sly Girl - Sep 4, 2003 12:47 pm (#27 of 1326)
JKR has said in an intereview that Lily was Gryffindor.

S.E. Jones - Sep 4, 2003 3:53 pm (#28 of 1326)
Kosh said: "I don't think the Potters were very aristocratic in behavior, or they wouldn't have taken in Sirius so easily. I see them more as better-off-Weasley-types."

First of all, I don't see how taking in Sirius, their son's best friend, was un-aristocratic in nature, it just shows that they were good people. And, the Weasleys are pureblooded, though I don't think they will be for long, considering the way their sons seem to be marrying.

Professor Kosh - Sep 4, 2003 4:32 pm (#29 of 1326)
I agree. The pureblood Weasley is likely going to be gone (unless Percy keeps getting snooty!)

However, I still don't see the Potters as aristocrats. But, that may just be my bias.

Hem Hem - Sep 4, 2003 6:02 pm (#30 of 1326)
The potters were not like the Malfoys, whether they achieved the title of "aristocrats" or not. The title doesn't seem to carry any significance, IMO.

Jenny M. - Sep 5, 2003 5:00 pm (#31 of 1326)
To return this discussion briefly to its roots, here's my theory about the source of Petunia's knowledge of dementors. Maybe, one summer, she was curious about the criminal justice system of the wizarding world, and asked her little sister about it. Now that this knowledge of hers is revealed to her magic-phobic husband, she wants to conceal from him the fact that she was ever curious about magic. What better way than to invent a story of having spied on James and Lily, throwing the magical-discussion onus onto them. Her husband would believe this, knowing of her natural tendency towards gossip.

Professor Kosh - Sep 5, 2003 7:42 pm (#32 of 1326)
Nah, Jenny. There was something more to her reaction to the dementor attack. Besides, I can't see her being 'curious' like that. She has some personal fear of magic, and I'm sure she's been exposed to an ugly side. I still bet the Evans' were killed by Volde and the Gang, and perhaps part of Petunia's disgust and rage is fueled by this. If Lily hadn't been a witch, her parents might be alive?

Sinister Kittens - Sep 6, 2003 4:28 am (#33 of 1326)
I wondered if Lily and Petunias parents were killed in the blast from Wormtails wand? That would explain Petunias hatred of all things wizardly, and that "Potter boy". Sister dead, parents dead all at the hands of her brother in laws best man (okay we know now that that isn't true, but who knows what DD said to her) and to top it all she has a living reminder of the boy who ruined her sisters life.

A-is-for-Amy - Sep 6, 2003 8:22 am (#34 of 1326)
That would be a great theory, except that the timing is wrong. Harry was delivered to their door about 24 hours after James and Lily were killed. The episode with Sirius and Peter would have taken place somewhere within that time (I would think) or shortly thereafter. Petunia's hatred and fear of the wizarding world was established long before that time.

I have often wondered what became of the Evans' and Potters' and why they are not around. Is it possible they died at the same time? Petunia's parents were excited to have a witch for a daughter, so it isn't impossible that they might have spent time with their son-in-law's (or future son-in-laws) family. It's frustrating not to have all the info, isn't it? But fun to come up with theories!

S.E. Jones - Sep 6, 2003 12:46 pm (#35 of 1326)
That's a good possibility, Amy. But, can I just point out that Petunia never said that her parents were "excited" to have a witch in the family, she said they were "proud". I think Petunia's dislike of the magical world comes from envy and resentment. Her sister, presumably her younger sister, was prettier, nicer, possibly smarter than her. She probably heard her parents say 'Lily this and Lily that' long before the Hogwarts letter came. And, when it did, it was just another thing to make Lily special. Her parents refused to be ashamed of her as Petunia was. I have a feeling Petunia probably tried to everything her parents wanted her to, tried to give the illusion of being the perfect daughter, and yet, once again Petunia was overlooked. Why, Lily even surpassed her in her marriage by marrying someone who was independently wealthy rather than a working class joe.

Sly Girl - Sep 6, 2003 2:07 pm (#36 of 1326)
Sarah, as usual.. you're spot on.

I think that sums up Petunia quite nicely. And it would be interesting to me, to hear Lily's take on everything (so, JKR if you're perusing these forums, this is an official plea to tell us more about Harry's mum!)

What do we know of Lily, really? What made her change her mind and date James? (I know, I think we get an inkling in the Pensieve memory of Snape's that she was amused at his antics, almost against her will)

S.E. Jones - Sep 6, 2003 2:19 pm (#37 of 1326)
Perhaps he was at Hogwarts when he got the letter that his parents had died or something and she got to see his ego deflate right in front of her....

As far as her being amused against her will goes, anyone who was ever a babysitter, parent, or older sibling might've found themselves in a similar position at least once. My little brother picked up a few curse words at school (he was in the first grade, I think) from on older student and let them slip once when I was babysitting him. It was kind of cute, him trying to cuss, but I knew I couldn't smile or laugh when I was chewing him out because he might get the idea that it was okay to do then....

Sly Girl - Sep 6, 2003 2:22 pm (#38 of 1326)
That, plus seeing Snape's undies had to be a little funny. Even if you were against what happened to show them off to begin with.

S.E. Jones - Sep 6, 2003 2:32 pm (#39 of 1326)
My point exactly, Sly.

I said that she might have seen him get a letter about his parents but that couldn't be, considering Sirius's comment about taking Sunday tea with them after turning 17. What about some other relative, though? Perhaps an aunt or uncle, a cousin?

A-is-for-Amy - Sep 6, 2003 3:33 pm (#40 of 1326)
It could have been the other way around, as well. Lily could have been notified of HER parent's deaths while at school and James dropped the macho act to comfort her? We have no idea when Lily lost her parents, do we?

Earo - Sep 6, 2003 6:36 pm (#41 of 1326)
Amy, I like this theory. James could have been her shoulder to lean on. If this is correct could Petunia blame the Magical Community for her parent's deeath?

Madam Pince - Sep 7, 2003 12:04 am (#42 of 1326)
I definitely had the opinion that Petunia was making up a story when she said she knew about the Dementors by overhearing James and Lily. My immediate thought was that she knew that some other way, but she just threw the blame on them for Vernon's benefit, because she has some sort of secret she is keeping from him. I agree with Professor Kosh's theory -- something is definitely up with Petunia!

There was discussion earlier of muggleborn vs. halfblood, etc. Do we know for sure -- does muggleborn mean that BOTH of your parents are muggles, or does only one have to be muggle?

S.E. Jones - Sep 7, 2003 11:57 am (#43 of 1326)
I'm pretty sure that JK said that Lily's parents were Muggles, whick makes it sound like she meant both.

Olivia Wood - Sep 7, 2003 3:18 pm (#44 of 1326)
Voldemort's father was a Muggle, but he's a Half-blood, not Muggle-born... unless you want to argue that it has to be the Mother who's a Muggle...

My first thought was that she was making it up too... Maybe Petunia had a bad relationship with a Wizard (Sirius? We know he could be a jerk.) before she met Vernon, and it contributed to her resentment of Magic, and she heard it from him... Oooh, I'll take this over to the Petunia thread.

Professor Kosh - Sep 8, 2003 3:43 am (#45 of 1326)
Umm..Olivia? What are you referring to when you mentioned Voldemort? I looked at the previous threads, but couldn't figure you what you were referring to.

schoff - Sep 8, 2003 10:40 am (#46 of 1326)
Edited by Sep 8, 2003 10:45 am
I edited this post because it had nothing to do with this thread and moved it to the Crouch thread. I really don't have much to say on Lily and James right now....

Olivia Wood - Sep 8, 2003 7:48 pm (#47 of 1326)
I was citing Voldemort as an example in order to help answer Madame Pince's question about Half-bloods and Muggle-borns.

Madam Poppy - Sep 8, 2003 10:13 pm (#48 of 1326)
Edited by Sep 8, 2003 10:13 pm
I hope you won't mind if I change the topic a bit? (Book 5, HB p. 413) I have a question regarding Draco's insult to Harry after the Gryffindor vs. Syltherin Quidditch match. "you can remember what your mother's house stank like, Potter, and Weasley's pigsty reminds you of it--"

Why didn't Malfoy say your parent's house? Is this a JKR hint of some kind? Why mention Lily's house?

Hem Hem - Sep 8, 2003 10:25 pm (#49 of 1326)
I think insults are always intensified when you add the word "mother" to it...I imagine Draco was just trying to get as much rudeness out of his statement as he could.

fidelio - Sep 9, 2003 7:27 am (#50 of 1326)
The worst fights between Malfoy and Ron and Harry always seem to involve insults to mothers-even Malfoy, little brat that he is, doesn't like hearing his mother slammed.

Mona on Wed May 11, 2011 10:44 am

S.E. Jones - Sep 9, 2003 7:36 am (#51 of 1326)
Could be that, or it could be because Harry's mum is a Muggle-born and thus Draco was simply exhibiting his pureblood mania again.....

Madam Poppy - Sep 9, 2003 2:50 pm (#52 of 1326)
Could Harry and his parents been living with Lily's parents, in LILY'S HOUSE? The home in Godric's Hollow might have belonged to the Evan's family. The couple was very young to have home of their own. This would explain how Petunia would have overheard James telling Lily about Azkaban and why their is no mention of Harry's Grandparents today. Mr. & Mrs. Evan's could have also been killed by You Know Who.

Just one of those silly questions you hope will still be answered in the last two books!

S.E. Jones - Sep 9, 2003 3:04 pm (#53 of 1326)
That's a very interesting idea, Poppy. That could explain a lot. But then, why wouldn't Petunia have mentioned that when she uttered the line, "and then, if you please, she went and got herself blown up." (PS)? She could have easily said, "she went and got herself and our parents blown up" or something along those lines... Hm, unless, of course, JK just simply didn't want us to know this information... Huh, I don't know what to think now. Well, I'll go with my original thought that it's a very interesting question... How's that?

schoff - Sep 9, 2003 3:07 pm (#54 of 1326)
Smile

Sarah! That's why I haven't posted on it yet either--trying to get my thoughts in order so I can make a good comment. It blew my mind too! Never thought about it.

Madam Pince - Sep 9, 2003 3:31 pm (#55 of 1326)
Very good idea, Madam Poppy. I just always assumed that the Godric Hollow home was handed down from James' side of the family, since I assumed he was the wealthy one. But I suppose we don't really KNOW that yet, do we? And if James and Lily lived in the Evans family home (grandparents could've already been dead and left it to her or something), that would probably also really tick off the very acquisitive Petunia. One more reason to dislike her sister...

Professor Kosh - Sep 9, 2003 5:50 pm (#56 of 1326)
Interesting idea, but it seems to have a few problems.

James was wealthy. Why would he live with his inlaws?
Knowing that their work was risky, wouldn't living with the inlaws endanger them? I don't see James and Lily doing this
Dudley is about the same age as Harry. Thus, Petunia would have met and married Vernon long before Harry's birth, and I don't see Petunia having anything to do with Lily after that. So, I don't think she would have overheard James talking to Lily while the married couple were living with her parents (I hope that was clear).

All that said, I think it very likely that the senior Evans's fell to Volde or DEs, and that is part of Petunia's resentment.

Madam Poppy - Sep 9, 2003 6:45 pm (#57 of 1326)
Edited by Sep 9, 2003 6:46 pm
Let's see if I can answer your questions.... 1. A young couple, just getting started and expecting a baby. I can see them living with her folks even if they had enough money to purchase a mansion. (Lily graduated in 1978 and Harry was born in 1980.)See: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

2. We don't know yet if James had an occupation. Granted they were in The Order of the Phoenix. But Lily could have only helped out from the end of school in 1978 till she became pregnant with Harry some 17 months later around November of 1979.

3. Even if Petunia didn't get along well with her sister, there are always those holiday get-togethers once a year. (Book 5, HB, p. 506) "Harry found himself shunted aside by a witch with a walnut jammed up her left nostril. "Family argument, eh?" smirked the blonde witch behind the desk. "You're the third I've seen today...Spell Damage, fourth floor..."

The Lexicon says "At some point over the three years following their graduation from Hogwarts, both Lily's and James' parents died." I don't remember reading when and if both sets of parents died. Does anyone have a chapter and page reference for that? But that doesn't mean that the young Potters couldn't have lived with the Lily's parents.

Hem Hem - Sep 9, 2003 7:16 pm (#58 of 1326)
Another reason why your theory makes a lot of sense, Poppy, is that the Potters were certainly living as muggles at the time of Voldemort's attack. That scene from the movie was designed by JKR and qualifies as canon more or less...why would they be looking like muggles if they were living by themselves? After all, they were under the fidelius charm.

Edit: I just wanted to add one quote: "Mrs Potter was Mrs. Dursley's sister, but they hadn't met for several years" (P/SS page 1). So the idea that Petunia learned something by overhearing the Potters at the senior Evans' house doesn't really work, unless you want to resort to some pretty fancy footwork.

S.E. Jones - Sep 9, 2003 7:21 pm (#59 of 1326)
The movies, wardrobe wise, don't always show wizards wearing clothes when not in school and such, so them wearing muggle clothes in that scene is not that surprising. But, I agree that the scene is canon, I even heard that JK wrote the scene for the movie specifically. JK said that James had a job but that he didn't need a well paying one because he inherited all that money. As far as what the lexicon says about when Lily and James graduated, as far as I know, we're still guessing here....

Sly Girl - Sep 9, 2003 10:12 pm (#60 of 1326)
Hm.. perhaps not, Sarah.. the time-line that was included with the Barnes and Noble Book Magazine was approved by JKR and it has James/Lily/Peter/Severus starting school in 1971. So, adding in the 7+ years it takes to go through school, that does put them at 1978.

The only weird thing is that it leaves out Sirius and Lupin which struck me as odd.

S.E. Jones - Sep 9, 2003 10:36 pm (#61 of 1326)
What Barnes and Noble Magazine?

schoff - Sep 9, 2003 10:43 pm (#62 of 1326)
If I remember correctly (I only glanced at it--and I thought it was TIME, not B&N), I think it was a copy of the timeline she approved for the CoS DVD (which I still can't get into). Although, since I haven't seen the DVD timeline, I'd bet the mag's timeline was an abbreviated version.

Professor Kosh - Sep 9, 2003 10:53 pm (#63 of 1326)
Given what Sirius said about James's parents, I don't think they would have made James support himself or cut him off from the family money. So, the question of whether or not James even needed a job to support himself is uncertain. If James's parents were already dead, then he had a fortune (which he left to Harry, as we have seen). So, I can't believe that a man of independent means would live with his inlaws. If James grew up with money, then he would be used to being master of his own house, not as a long-term guest in another. And, even if they were living as Muggles (which makes sense, although I doubt it was necessary), why would they endanger Lily's non-magical parents, who'd have no way to defend themselves if trouble came.

Another take on the theory, which I find more plausible, is that perhaps Lily's parents were staying with James and Lily, to partake of the protection of the Fidelous Charm. And, in this situation, with the attack on Lily and James, Lily's parents were killed too, further incensing Petunia. What do ya think?

Sly Girl - Sep 9, 2003 11:43 pm (#64 of 1326)
No, Schoff, this is definitely Barnes and Noble- it's their in house magazine. Dated May/June 2003. JKR is on the cover. It's the "Rowling time-line" and matches JKR's life with events in the book.

schoff - Sep 9, 2003 11:45 pm (#65 of 1326)
Yeah, that's the one. Guess I should have paid a little bit more attention, huh?

Madam Poppy - Sep 10, 2003 10:12 am (#66 of 1326)
Edited by Sep 10, 2003 10:18 am
Well Professor, we may never know why Draco made this odd comment about Lily's house. Of course Draco also knew all about Sirius in Prisoner of Azkaban.

I am always listening to one of the books on tape. On my umpteenth time through Goblet of Fire, this thought of Harrys finally hit me. He saw "visions of Sirius, cornered by dementors down some dark London street..." I just knew there would be dementors in London in the next book. Little did Harry know the dementors would be after him and that Sirius would die! You know JKR, some of those little remarks turn out to be big clues.

haymoni - Sep 10, 2003 12:50 pm (#67 of 1326)
Reading the earlier comments, Sirius and Lupin said that James started dating Lily in their 7th year. Is it possible that James visited Lily at home over the Christmas holiday?

Petunia, being jealous of her sister and nosy to boot, would have taken every opportunity to listen in on anything Lily and James were saying.

I don't think Lily and James would have had to elope or anything - her parents seemed just fine with her being a witch. If James could charm Lily, I'm sure her parents would have been a cinch. He could have come to their home many times before they were actually married.

S.E. Jones - Sep 10, 2003 4:46 pm (#68 of 1326)
haymoni, I think this idea makes perfect sense. And, of course Petunia would listen closely to whatever James told Lily. After all, he would have probably been the first wizard from the WW that she'd ever seen. And, even though she may have seen the WW as abnormal and freakish, Petunia is just the sort who simply has to know for the sake of knowing, nothing can go on that she hasn't heard about....

Casandra - Sep 11, 2003 6:33 am (#69 of 1326)
Look at this: chapter ten Ootp: ""Harry had troubled night´s sleep. His parents wove in and out of his dreams, never speaking; Mrs Weasly sobbed over Kreacher´s dead body, watched by Ron and Hermione who were wearing crowns, and yet again Harry found himself walking down a corridor....""

When you´re reading this, you could think the import thing is the corridor stuff, but what about: ""His parents wove in and out of his dreams, NEVER SPEAKING"" Is Rowling giving us a clue about Harry's parents profession?? were they unspeakables??

And I expect the rest about Kreacher isn´t true, that he will die, because I don't think Mrs Weasly would cry because of it, but imagine Harry kill him, then she would cry... well, I don't think this part, I think this is because Harry had seen Mrs Weasly and the bogart, but one more time: Rowling don´t write anything for no reason at all

A-is-for-Amy - Sep 11, 2003 11:14 am (#70 of 1326)
Good Catch, Casandra! If Harry is having prophetic dreams, his parents very well could have been unspeakables, which might be why no one has yet mentioned what they did for a living... because not many people know. As for Mrs. Weasley sobbing over a dead Kreacher, she might cry if he had just given her very bad news before dying. Ron and Hermione wearing crowns? It could be that they were chosen as prefects above him, or it could predict them becoming Head Boy and Girl.

Madam Poppy - Sep 11, 2003 12:15 pm (#71 of 1326)
Edited by Sep 11, 2003 12:18 pm
Wow Casandra! I usually read the dreams and give them up as nonsense. I think here you key in on the walking down the corridor which got to be repetitious and miss the really important stuff. I agree that James and Lily were probably unspeakables and that Ron and Hermione will be Head Boy and Girl. I'm not sure why Molly would be crying over Kreacher. Usually you "cry over" someone if you are sad they died. (and who would miss Kreacher besides Hermione?) Amy's idea about him being the bearer of bad news seems to make sense to me.

You heard it here first folks!

S.E. Jones - Sep 11, 2003 12:33 pm (#72 of 1326)
Well, if Molly represents family and she was crying which represents loss and Kreacher can be linked to Sirius, maybe this was another clue to Sirius's death....

Sly Girl - Sep 11, 2003 2:22 pm (#73 of 1326)
Ooh, good interpretation, Sarah... of course you could further arugue that Harry's parents not speaking doesn't so much point to them being Unspeakables as it does that Harry has always felt cut off from them and that in his most troubling times in his life, they have never been able to offer their advice or support.

That said, I really like the idea that they themselves worked in the Dept of Mysteries. I don't know how probable it is..but it's nice to consider.

S.E. Jones - Sep 11, 2003 2:29 pm (#74 of 1326)
Um, there was a theory that the brains in the DoM were of dead Unspeakables. If they were Unspeakables, do you suppose their brains could be swimming in that tank? Oh dear, I really hope not...that's a little more than just creeepy.....

Denise S. - Sep 11, 2003 5:32 pm (#75 of 1326)
I would just like to post my kudos to Casandra for her interpretation. Having often tried (in vain) to interpret my own dreams, and having long ago given up on fictional dreams, I would never have spotted this. Thank you! :-)

Re: the brains in the tank being of dead Unspeakables--
it would be extraordinary if Ron had somehow been attacked by Lily's or James' brain. Not that I believe this will happen if those are Unspeakables' brains. It also raises the possibility that Ron could have been attacked by the brain of an Unspk. who knew James or Lily.

I doubt all of this, but it would be absolutely wild if it did happen!

Sinister Kittens - Sep 12, 2003 6:12 am (#76 of 1326)
Wow - I haven't read this thread for a while. How much I have missed! Interesting theory Cassandra.. does anybody know if Unspeakables have to go through further training (like Aurors)?

Can I just add, yurgh, to the brains thing - someone elses memories in your head? That must be like accidentally picking up someone elses pensieve!

lys potter - Sep 12, 2003 9:07 am (#77 of 1326)
Yea Cassandra! On the last temporary fourm, I asked (as imapotter) if anybody else thought that James and Lily were Unspeakables, but I didn't make that catch to use as evidence. I've always thought it was a glaring omission that we don't know their professions yet, and knew it had to be important later on. This clue that you caught from Harry's dream makes it all fit even better, for me. Think about this: we do know that James inherited a large sum of money, so he didn't need a high-paying job (from a JKR interview). If he (and Lily) were Unspeakables, they may have been researching the contents of the room with the locked door. I think most "pure" research is not highly paid. Highly funded perhaps, for equipment, lab time, etc., but the researchers aren't usually taking home large sums of money for their work. Plus, if James and Lily were working with the power in this room, perhaps that might provide a more direct explanation for why Harry is filled with this "power the Dark Lord has not." Could Harry have been a part of their research there? I'm not saying that they only had Harry for research purposes, but what if their desire to have a child could fit with their research plans? Any thoughts on this?

Haggis and Irn Bru - Sep 14, 2003 9:19 am (#78 of 1326)
Euuchhh, yuck, shudder.

Sly Girl - Sep 14, 2003 12:29 pm (#79 of 1326)
Haggis and Irn Bru... please, for future reference make a post that says something other than your previous one. We want the threads to be about discussion, not reactions. Thanks.

Haggis and Irn Bru - Sep 14, 2003 12:53 pm (#80 of 1326)
Sorry . I just found the idea of anyone who would want to experiment on there own child as abhorant.

We are given so little information about his parents beyond the fact that his dads wand was good for transfiguration and his mothers for charms. His dad was one of the brightest students in his year and lily was a powerful witch. JKR has also stated that he worked but did not really need to because of the money in the vault. People have argued previously about whether you get well paid if you work in the ministry of magic. They have used Arthur as a case study. When you take into account that he has supported so many children and managed to get by then he cant be that badly paid. This suggests that the wages arent to bad. Nobody knows exactly what unspeakables study but I can see them generally being regarded as of a higher importance than the misuse of muggle objects department by pay masters. With only a wife to support this would probably be a good wage. JKR said somewhere that it was not a high paying job. I dont know why but I can see him wanting a job with more tangible results.

Sly Girl - Sep 14, 2003 1:00 pm (#81 of 1326)
I agree with your reasoning there and I would say that points to them not being Unspeakables. For some reason, I too think the Ministry would definitely pay them more than they would pay Arthur. Perhaps James's job, whatever it was, was a front? He would take a menial job somewhere if it put them in the position to help the Order or spy on someone...

Haggis and Irn Bru - Sep 14, 2003 1:08 pm (#82 of 1326)
I am of course not totally rejecting the fact that he worked in the MOM. I was wondering who Dumbly had as spy in the MOM. He might have worked in Magical maintanace or even as a cleaner or even as a watch wizard. Ideal jobs to see who was coming or going from the ministry but at the lower end of the pay scale.

A-is-for-Amy - Sep 15, 2003 4:29 pm (#83 of 1326)
NOt sure if this belongs on the James and Lily thread, or over on Aunt Petunia's. I was re-reading OoP last night, and I was suddenly hit with an idea I thought I would toss out for discussion. When Petunia let's it slip that she knows what Dementors are, and Harry asks her how she knows, she says, "I overheard that awful boy telling *her* about them years ago." and Harry replies with something like, "You mean my mom and dad? Why don't you say their names?" This is all on page 34 of the Brittish version (I donated my american version to my kids' school).

We have all be assuming (as Harry did)that Perunia meant she had overheard James and Lily. What if it wasn't James she overheard at all? She ignored Harry when he asked her if she was speaking of his parents... hmmm. Who could it have been besides James? And if it was James she was talking about, why won't she say their names? It's kind of creepy (like the way some people won't say Voldemort).

Just my 2 knuts!

shepherdess - Sep 15, 2003 5:18 pm (#84 of 1326)
Or maybe she was just making up a fib to cover up the fact that she knows more about the WW than Vernon thinks she does? And this is being discussed on the Aunt Petunia thread. Check it out.

S.E. Jones - Sep 16, 2003 6:28 pm (#85 of 1326)
She could also not be saying their names for similar reasons to why she didn't say them for the fifteen previous years.

Anyway, as for the pay in the DoM, it might not be as good as some think it is. You'd think people who research new medications and new genetic applications, ect. would be well paid since people really want these new technologies. Well, as someone who had seriously considered going into research and knows many people in research, those jobs don't get very much pay, despite their importance. You can get plenty of grant money but your actually salary is usually not that great a sum. However, people who apply these technologies, doctors and the like, get paid far more because. I think some of the reasoning for this is that they actually have to deal with the people. I think it might work similarly in the MoM, Arthur is in a department that actually deals with the public and so would make more than the researchers in the DoM.... I hope I'm making sense..... To sum up, I think it could be very likely that James and/or Lily worked in the DoM.

lys potter - Sep 16, 2003 7:01 pm (#86 of 1326)
Haggis and Irn Bru: Sorry, I didn't mean to gross you out. I didn't mean that James and Lily were trying to experiment on Harry; just that if they were Unspeakables doing research in the room with the locked door, they might know that their child might gain some benefit from their contact with the "power the Dark Lord has not." Sorry that I wasn't very clear about that. Anyway, I think there has to be some direct connection between Harry and the power in that room, and the most logical way for that to have happened is if James and/or Lily worked there. That's all I meant.

S.E Jones: That's exactly what I was trying to say about researchers' salaries. I think it's especially true in situations where the research is done independently, is more intellectually pure, and isn't being done strictly for commercial purposes. In fact, if I were independently wealthy, I might be more inclined to take an important job like this that paid less, because I could afford to.

Gred-n-Forge - Sep 16, 2003 10:36 pm (#87 of 1326)
At the manufacturing plant where I work--and this is true of other places--we have a number of quality control labs where the actual gathering of data and such is carried out by lab technicians. I also remember in college that graduate assistants actually performed much of the research for the professors on their projects and such. Neither of these jobs pay very much compared to the professors and the industrial people who interpret the actual data (and some of those jobs don't pay all that whoopee, either!) Based on this, I'm with S.E. Jones and lys potter--it's very likely that a DoM researcher (lab tech?) would not have been paid very well, which would certainly qualify as a possible job for James.

Jenny M. - Sep 16, 2003 10:51 pm (#88 of 1326)
Please clarify, somebody - what is an Unspeakable?

schoff - Sep 16, 2003 11:01 pm (#89 of 1326)
GoF, Ch. 7:

"...and that's Bode and Croaker..they're Unspeakables...."
"They're what?"
"From the Department of Mysteries, top secret, no idea what they get up to...."

Oh man, I *just* got the Bode and Croaker reference....

S.E. Jones - Sep 17, 2003 11:04 am (#90 of 1326)
How possible does everyone think it is that Lily was older than James? Sly Girl pointed out that there was an official timeline published that was approved by JKR, or so we think, that showed them being in the same year. We know that James, Sirius, Remus, Peter, and Severus are all in the same year because they took their OWLs together in their fifth year. Lily is then shown to be a prefect at that time, so she had to be either a 5th year or above. If they dated in 7th year, I'd assume they were the same year but one could have been out of Hogwarts and they still saw each other during holidays and such. Hagrid said they were "head boy an' girl at Hogwarts in their day" but did he mean respectively or together? Personally, I think they were in the same year, but my brother seems to think there is a lot of evidence to suggest that Lily may have been at least a year older. Any thoughts?

shepherdess - Sep 17, 2003 11:32 am (#91 of 1326)
Sarah,

It seems to me most of the evidence you presented supports the fact that they were in the same year. Is your brother just interpreting it differently, or does he have other evidence he thinking about?

As for me, your first statement is good enough: JKR approved the timeline.

Off topic-Hey! what happened to your stag-he was there a couple minutes ago!

S.E. Jones - Sep 17, 2003 11:49 am (#92 of 1326)
He's interpreting it differently. Like the "head boy an' girl at Hogwarts in their day" line. He says it could mean they were HB/G at the same time or each in their 7th years seperately. Also, I haven't seen any references to the timeline Sly mentioned anywhere else so I don't know much about it.....

BTW, my stag took a break and was replaced by my "tired kitty" which I often use when I'm feeling really low (like now, I've been pretty sick) and need something to cheer me up.....

shepherdess - Sep 17, 2003 12:28 pm (#93 of 1326)
I like the kitty, too. And get well soon!

A-is-for-Amy - Sep 17, 2003 3:50 pm (#94 of 1326)
Okay, over on the Lupin thread, they are saying that Lily was a prefect (and therefore would have known Lily relatively well). Has that actually been said in a book or interview that I missed?

A-is-for-Amy - Sep 17, 2003 6:24 pm (#95 of 1326)
I worded that badly... they were suggesting that Lupin would have know Lily relatively well because they would have had prefect duties together. I can't find any reference to Lily being a prefect (head girl, yes). Anyone?

S.E. Jones - Sep 17, 2003 9:00 pm (#96 of 1326)
Ooh, good catch Amy. Lily being a prefect has been discussed for some time on the forum, long before the theory that you mentioned, but you're right, there is no mention, that I can find, of her being a prefect in the actual text. I checked both the "Snape's Worst Memory" chapter and the discussion with Sirius and Lupin that followed it.....

S.E. Jones - Sep 18, 2003 2:53 pm (#97 of 1326)
Okay, I had an interesting thought last night, at least I think I did, it could have been medicine induced. We've been assuming that the only way James would have met Petunia was through her and Lily's parents. Someon suggested some posts back that Lily and James became close when her parents died and he gave her a shoulder to cry on. Well, if her parents had died sometime at the end of their 6th year and he put his arrogance aside to comfort her, they may have stayed in touch that summer when she went home to live with her older sister, Petunia. (Just because Petunia was jealous of Lily, that doesn't mean she wouldn't take care of her younger sister when she had to.) They then started dating the following school year (their 7th year) and he probably saw her over holiday breaks, either him visiting her or her, and possibly Petunia, visiting him. Now, if sometime either during the summer before Lily's 7th year, or the following school year, Petunia got engaged to Vernon Dursley, the soon to be newly weds wouldn't necessarily want Petunia's little sister living with them. They may have expected Lily to live on her own after graduating school (though, I don't know whether Vernon actually knew where she went to school at that time or not). We've also assumed that James didn't have any money or a house until he inherited his family's vault in Gringotts and the family home, but, he was possibly the only son of a wealthy couple, for all we know they bought him and Lily the home in Godric's Hallow as a wedding present. Also, how do we know that the vault in Gringotts isn't James's personal vault and their is a different family vault? Anyway, I could see this as a plausible reason the young couple decided to get married so soon after graduation. (I thought it might also explain why the two sisters had so little contact between them after Lily was married, because they were both settling into new lives and didn't have their parents to pull them together.) Okay, what do you all think?

schoff - Sep 18, 2003 5:19 pm (#98 of 1326)
SE Jones: (I thought it might also explain why the two sisters had so little contact between them after Lily was married, because they were both settling into new lives and didn't have their parents to pull them together.)

That's the best argument I've heard yet supporting the idea that Lily and Petunia' parents died while Lily was in school. I always figured they died in VWI, while James and Lily were fighting against Voldie. At the very least, I thought maybe Voldie might have killed them in his quest to find the Potters. It fits very well with the "James comforting Lily" idea, as the main reason James' attitude changed towards someone Lily would date her 7th year.

It also might explain some more of Petunia's bitterness towards Lily, if she was forced to take care of her, and then later her child.

S.E. Jones - Sep 18, 2003 5:42 pm (#99 of 1326)
"It also might explain some more of Petunia's bitterness towards Lily, if she was forced to take care of her, and then later her child."

Yes. Also, I thought the bitterness might also stem from her taking care of Lily and wanting her to go into a certain type of life and feeling hurt and resentful if Lily instead chose the WW and James instead of the life Petunia saw her in....

mollis - Sep 19, 2003 9:16 am (#100 of 1326)
I think that you guys are on to something here. Petunia's hatred of his sister could very easily be explained if she had to take care of Liliy, and then Lily ditched her sister for a wizard.

And by the way, SE, I love your new avatar! The old one was very cool, but the sleeping kitty just makes me giggle every time I see her!

Mona on Wed May 11, 2011 10:47 am

S.E. Jones - Sep 19, 2003 11:10 am (#101 of 1326)
Thanks Mollis. And, yeah, she always makes me giggle too, that's why I use her when I'm feeling sickly....

BTW, on the question of whether Lily was also a fifth year in the pensieve, I think I found the proof that she was. When the fifth years leave the Great Hall, the Marauders leave first, followed by a group of girls which Harry walks near, and Snape brings up the rear. The Marauders settle under the tree, the girls settle by the lake (James then keeps looking over at them), and Snape settles by some bushes. Lily is then described as one of the girls by the lake, thus she was in the Great Hall taking the DADA OWL as well and was most definately in the same year as James and co.

Haggis and Irn Bru - Sep 19, 2003 2:54 pm (#102 of 1326)
I think its a good theory but I would imagine that Petunia would have been bitter towards her sister before there parents died. I would have assumed this would have started in 1st year. If the theory is true she has sacraficed her feelings to look after her sister then I would have expected her to be generally a nicer person. Or did she just look after her younger sister because it was expected of her i.e people would talk if she didnt? Several years or not talking is minimum 2 years roughly around the time that Lily would have been pregnant-just after leaving school. Or could Lily and James have become friends and she could have stayed at James house in the holidays? Sirius would have got his money from his uncle by age 17 and so would not be there. If James parents were so welcoming of Sirius maybee they were also accomodating of Lily because they felt sorry for her. James and Lily would have spent the holidays together and become close.

S.E. Jones - Sep 19, 2003 3:20 pm (#103 of 1326)
"Or did she just look after her younger sister because it was expected of her i.e people would talk if she didnt?"

That's the way I saw it. She seems to me to be the type to do what is expected of her. From outward appearances, she has a proper marriage to a proper man, with a proper son (or so she thinks, the neighbors would probably disagree), and even a proper house (think of the way she keeps it so clean, too clean). And I agree that her resentment came long before her parents died. She probably did everything her parents ever expected of her and yet Lily was their favorite, or at least that's how things appeared in Petunia's eyes. Anyway, they must have communicated some, otherwise how did Petunia know that Lily had had a son named Harry that was a few months younger than Dudley? At the very least Lily wrote letters and Petunia read them, despite her distaste for her sister.....

Neville Longbottom - Sep 19, 2003 3:49 pm (#104 of 1326)
I can see Petunia being jealous in the beginning, and than became more and more bitter, out of jealosy because Lily was a witch and out of jealousy because Lily was also the parents favorite daughter. At least I think she was, because I believe Petunia's anger in PS, when she shouted about her "wonderful sister" was such emotional and with that much bitterness, that I don't think she was totally wrong. Probably the Evans were proud and excited to have a witch in the family, and they started to neglect the other daughter, though probably unintentionally. Petunia's bitterness grew and grew. And than I can see the Evans' death through the hand of Death Eaters (not Dementors, Petunia didn't know about the kiss, judging from the fact, that she shook Dudley to see, if he still has a soul), as the finale blow for Petunia to break with her sister and their world completely. Than she took Harry in, because he still was a family member and she didn't want to see him dead, but she vowed herself, never to neglect Dudley, especially not in comparison to Lily's son.

I also don't buy, that she just heard James and Lily talking about Azkaban and Dementors. IMO, it seemed like an excuse. I think it's more likely she was secretly interested in Lily's world and tried to get as much information, as she could, without anyone else knowing.

S.E. Jones - Sep 19, 2003 3:57 pm (#105 of 1326)
I don't think it their deaths would have to be at the hands of DEs to be a breaking point. If she had to sort of shoulder the majority, or all, of the responsibility for seeing to their last effects and their funeral and then to Lily... I could definately see that as the straw that broke the camel's back...especially if she really did want Lily to stay in the Muggle world and she instead chose the WW and James......

BTW, I absolutely agree with you that Petunia was secretly interested in the WW but didn't want anyone to know. That certainly explains how she could hold on to a piece of information, like the stuff about Dementors, for fifteen years....

Susurro Notities - Sep 19, 2003 5:14 pm (#106 of 1326)
It may be that Petunia's bitterness grew not so much due to parental favoritism but because Lily was away at Hogwarts she was not at home for the long dull school year. Lily came home when home was fun, holidays and summer. Petunia on the other hand was stuck at home all year. I agree that "she was secretly interested in Lily's world and tried to get as much information, as she could, without anyone else knowing." Lily had a whole other existence at Hogwarts, an alluring existance. Petunia had dull routine.

I do not think that Petunia took Harry in out of loyalty, duty, or even that she didn't want to see him dead. I think Dumbledore offered her a deal in the letter he left with Harry and she accepted it. In Order of the Phoenix p. 836 (Am. ed.) Dumbledore says "I thought...that she might need reminding of the pact she had sealed by taking you"

Dumbledore got a safe haven for Harry. What did Petunia get?

Neville Longbottom - Sep 19, 2003 5:26 pm (#107 of 1326)
Yes, maybe she sealed a pact with Dumbledore. But what would she get? I can't imagined that it has anything to do with her family's safety, mainly because I think, the Dursleys would be much safer, if they never had taken Harry. The Dementor attack, for example, never would have happened. I read the theory on the lexicon, that maybe Dudley is a wizard, too, and Dumbledore agreed to remain silent. But while I think it's possible, I really hope it's wrong because a.) it would appall me, if Petunia and Dumbledore just decide about Dudley's fate like that and b.) it frightens me, to think, what Dudley would do, if he finds out about his "cool powers" (and started to make things happen, like Harry and Neville did).

I also don't think, that Petunia is cruel enough, to let her nephew die. Maybe it is wishful thinking, but it really would give her character more depth, and I really hope, Snape is not the only nasty character, who cares about Harry's safety.

Sly Girl - Sep 19, 2003 5:37 pm (#108 of 1326)
You could argue though that perhaps the Dursley's wouldn't have been safe and in his madness and temper, Voldemort could have ordered an attack on the Dursley's, while trying to find Harry. So it's all academic, because Harry did go to the Dursley's and Petunia did take him in and agreed to it; and it is a decision that she has to see through to the end, which is why she tells Vernon that Harry has to stay.

Whether it be because of family ties, a promise made to DD, keeping up her end of the bargain etc, is anyone's guess. I think we're going to find out more in the next book, at least.. I pray we do. Because I'd really love for JK to just write a whole novella on Lily and her family.

Susurro Notities - Sep 19, 2003 6:17 pm (#109 of 1326)
Sly Girl, A novella on Lily and family would be great. I bet Harry Potter fans could keep JKR busy for the rest of her life just writing novella's to explain all the pre SS history.

Madame Librarian - Sep 20, 2003 6:28 am (#110 of 1326)
I think we've drifted. This is the James and Lily thread, and there's a whole bunch of stuff in the previous few posts that really should be on the Petunia thread. Or is it just me?

Ciao. Barb

Fawkesy Lady - Sep 22, 2003 12:00 pm (#111 of 1326)
Ok, I think this belongs with this thread. WE know for sure that Lily died, we are fairly certain that James did too. We spent the first five books finding out about James and his friends and background. All we know about Lily is that she was born in a muggle family and her sister raised Harry. Ok, did JKR keep Lily's history a secret because it is the key for all the answers in books 6 and 7.

I believe that there is someone from Lily's past that we have not met that will bring some answers to us.

S.E. Jones - Sep 22, 2003 3:08 pm (#112 of 1326)
Barb, we didn't drift that far, the stuff about Petunia was in response to a statement I made about James and Lily and their past (post #97).

Fawkesly lady, I absolutely agree with you on that. There's been a lot of discussion of various threads about a possible friend of Lily's turning up at some point....

Madam Pince - Sep 22, 2003 4:25 pm (#113 of 1326)
Schoff, several posts back you said you *just* got it about the Bode and Croaker reference. What did you mean? I STILL haven't gotten it... Does it have to do with James and Lily possibly being Unspeakables? Sorry I'm so dense... my brain is waterlogged from the hurricane we just had...

schoff - Sep 22, 2003 8:45 pm (#114 of 1326)
Edited by Sep 22, 2003 8:47 pm
Bode and Croaker...

Bode croaked in OoP! Tah Dah!

Another example of an incredibly subtle use of foreshadowing by our lovely JKR!

mollis - Sep 23, 2003 5:43 am (#115 of 1326)
Schoff, I think that is one of the funniest posts I've seen!

And Madame Pince, you're not alone. I didn't get it either.

Madame Librarian - Sep 23, 2003 7:27 am (#116 of 1326)
Not nearly as funny our friend schoff's, but another point: the word "bode" has a special meaning here, too. It means to predict or be an omen. If often is used in the negative sense of something "boding evil." Hmmmmm....

Ciao. Barb

Pinky - Sep 23, 2003 7:46 am (#117 of 1326)
Something that's been swimming around in my brain for the last few days is the whole idea of what changed Lily and James's relationship. In Snape's memory, it doesn't look like they would ever become an item. The next thing we know, they're married and seem quite happy. What changed? While reading the Prophecy thread, this occured to me. I've always assumed that James and Lily thrice defied Voldemort while they were already married, and they defied him together. What if, they individually defied him? Perhaps the first time they defied him, they ended up being thrown together in a situation. This is a common literary device. Hero and heroine can't stand each other. Then they go through a dangerous time (surviving a desert trek, hiding in a cave in the middle of snow storm, besieged in a house by bad guys with dynamite, etc) and the stress of the event and the high emotions that come with that cause them to see each other in a different light. Ka-blooey! They fall madly in love. So my theory is that James and Lily each defied Voldemort on their own at least once before falling in love, and that act of defying him is what eventually led to them getting married. Make sense?

Madame Librarian - Sep 23, 2003 8:15 am (#118 of 1326)
Oh, yes, Pinky. Even without the defying bit, James and Lily could have been thrown together at work (where they worked is still not known) in a difficult situation. This is so classic a boy-gets-girl literary device that it makes sense. When I read that scene, I immediately thought, "Oh, sure, she hates him now, but just wait a year or two, he'll win her over with some derring-do or rescue stunt." Or, not to be one-sided, it could have been Lily's "stunt" or brilliance that convinces James to grow up and do the right thing.

Ciao. Barb

S.E. Jones - Sep 23, 2003 1:28 pm (#119 of 1326)
Just keep in mind that they were still in school when they finally started dating so any "daring-do" would have happened either at the end of their 6th year, during the following summer, or at the beginning of their 7th year. Also, I get the feeling that the dislike was all on Lily's side; James seemed quite smitten with her...

I had a theory about why Lily may have changed her mind about James that got lost somewhere a few posts back (post #97)....

fidelio - Sep 23, 2003 3:06 pm (#120 of 1326)
We've speculated that the "Snape down the Shrieking Shack Tunnel, face-to-face with Lupin, as a werewolf" episode may have occurred at the end of their 5th year--it's possible that the shock of this event, in addition to whatever little talk he and Sirius had to go through with DD, may have been the catalyst that started James's thoughts in a different direction. It's entirely possible Lily found out about this, sooner or later. Given the little we've seen of her so far, I imagine she'd have unloaded on both James and Sirius, and if James showed any contrition at all, this may have softened her up a little. Of course, this could also be the reason Sirius hasn't got much to say about Lily--she's his best friend's girlfriend, and later wife, but she knew about the whole Snape incident, and thought the less of him for it--to his embarassment.

Fawkes Forever - Sep 24, 2003 8:45 am (#121 of 1326)
Actually Sarah (S.E) I think thats a good theory re. Lily & James..... something like the death of a parent / both parents... on either side could be something to push the two together.... After all there is no mention of both sets of parents /families (bar the Dursleys) after Voldy's attack in Godrics Hollow... but thats another mystery

Jenny M. - Sep 24, 2003 6:09 pm (#122 of 1326)
S.E., you are exactly right that James is already quite smitten with Lily when we see him in Snape's Pensieve. Remember, Harry watches James doodle the initials L.E. on the back of his test paper. Harry is mystified, but we can hypothesize with some certainty that L.E. stands for Lily Evans.

S.E. Jones - Sep 25, 2003 7:15 am (#123 of 1326)
Plus there is the comment from Sirius, or was it Lupin, about James always making a fool of himself when Lily was around....

Fawkes Forever - Sep 25, 2003 7:18 am (#124 of 1326)
Not unlike Harry whenever Cho was about.... not that I'm comparing Lily to Cho (never), just the way the Potter male acts around a girl he 'fancies' it's quite endearing really!

Ricky Warner - Oct 4, 2003 11:17 pm (#125 of 1326)
Sorry if this was brought up before but: ...but Jamius or some ancient Roman Mythology guy was thought by many to be a greta leader and patriot, but in the end of his story was revealed to be an evil person.

In an email to me from a friend. I reckon it is possible.

Iman Khan - Oct 13, 2003 5:21 am (#126 of 1326)
well that's definitely something to think about..

fidelio - Oct 13, 2003 6:28 am (#127 of 1326)
Ricky, what is the origin of this? I've studied a lot of Roman history, because I majored in Classical Studies, and it rings no bell whatsoever. Also, "Jamius" is not a Roman name. The Latin version of James is Jacobus, and it was not used as a name among the Romans until well into the Christian era--that is, after the Emperor Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Empire. Even then, it was used more in the eastern parts of the empire than in Rome itself.

Dr Filibuster - Oct 13, 2003 3:34 pm (#128 of 1326)
Janus was a Roman God with two faces wasn't he? Maybe it's him your friend was thinking of?

Here is a quote that I just posted on the Book 6 & 7 thread...it's about Lily so I thought it would be appropriate here.

From Quick Quotes via Sugarquill.nets transcription project..The Connection 12 October 1999:

"Are we going to learn a lot about his mother?"

JKR: "Yeah, you will...now the important thing about Harry's mother, the really, really significant thing, you're going to find out in 2 parts. You'll find a lot more about her in Book 5, or you'll find something significant about her in Book 5, then you'll find out something incredibly important about her in Book 7. but I can't tell you what those things are so I'm sorry, but yes, you will find out more about her because both of them are very important in what Harry ends up having to do".

So...what was the important thing we learned about Lily in OoP that will have such significance in Harry's future?

Defending Snape? Confronting bullies? Making a stand for what you know is the right thing to do? Going against the crowd? Sticking up for the victim? Bringing thoughtless people to their senses? Seeing her secretly smile at Snape grey uunderpants? Seeing her and her friends with the Giant Squid?

Madame Librarian - Oct 13, 2003 3:42 pm (#129 of 1326)
Dr. F., all of the above?

Ciao. Barb

Sly Girl - Oct 13, 2003 5:01 pm (#130 of 1326)
I don't know Dr. F, but those questions made me laugh out-loud.

Maybe JKR changed it to book 6. Sad

That interview was from way back in 1999. Due to editing, she may have saved it for 6, seeing as how the other important fact comes in book 7.

Or perhaps, it has something to do with Petunia via Lily.

Haggis and Irn Bru - Oct 18, 2003 12:11 pm (#131 of 1326)
SOmething I picked up when looking at Snapes worst memory that nobody has mentioned and i dont know if it is significant...

P571 (UK) Snapes worst memory

"'LEAVE HIM ALONE!' Lily shouted. She had her own wand out now. James and Sirius eyed it warily."

James and Sirius were top students at school and were described as very bright. They seemed to be able to look after themselves with curses/jinxes etc so why be scared of Lily. What power does she have beyond being good at charms?

Madame Librarian - Oct 18, 2003 12:52 pm (#132 of 1326)
Haggis, it's possible that she had the advantage there simply because she already had her wand pointing at James. James's wand is pointing at Snape. She would beat him to the draw, so to speak. Plus a spell or curse performed during a state of heightened emotion (her anger and disgust) might have a bigger impact than anything James could throw at her given that he's sweet on her. But, it also could be that her skill is better than theirs. We have heard that she was a talented witch.

Ciao. Barb

Haggis and Irn Bru - Oct 18, 2003 12:58 pm (#133 of 1326)
I agree her skill may have been better but James was using his wand to attack Snape.

S.E. Jones - Oct 18, 2003 2:05 pm (#134 of 1326)
I think they "eyed it warily" because it was a wand that could possibly be pointing in their direction and neither had any reason to believe that she would't shoot, er, cast away.... In other word, they were being causious....

Sly Girl - Oct 18, 2003 3:55 pm (#135 of 1326)
Yes, because Lily seemed quite willing and ready to hex them, even though it was Snape.

Dr Filibuster - Oct 18, 2003 4:38 pm (#136 of 1326)
You raised an interesting point Irn Bru, but I think the significant thing just has to be her attitude and her willingness to do the right thing.

Harry already has these atributes so some degree, but maybe he'll have to develope them further. Did he watch Mark Evans being beaten by Big D?

Of course, I could be wrong about the "significant thing".

Mandy Thomas - Oct 19, 2003 9:54 am (#137 of 1326)
Did James and Lily know about the Prophecy?

That is my question. Did Dumbledore tell Lily and James about the Prophecy before that Halloween night? You would think so: Lily gave her life so Harry could live. She's doing the typical mother-thing, but does she also know that Harry is the only one who can defeat Voldemort? I'm guessing that Lily and James did know about it, what do you think? Love, Mandy

Denise S. - Oct 19, 2003 10:29 am (#138 of 1326)
I doubt it, Mandy; Dumbledore told Harry that the two of them were the only ones who knew it, and I think by the end of OotP, Dumbledore would have told Harry whether or not his parents knew about it.

Re: important knowledge of Lily
If James and Sirius eyed her warily when she had her wand drawn on them because she was so good at charms, that would explain why her love charm saved Harry when so many other people died at the hands of Voldemort & Co despite sacrifices. The other wizards and/or witches didn't have the magical strength to perform such ancient and powerful magic.

schoff - Oct 19, 2003 1:18 pm (#139 of 1326)
Edited by Oct 19, 2003 1:18 pm
Mandy: You should probably check out the Lily Potter dying for Harry thread. We've been discussing it a little over there.

loudtalker29 - Oct 22, 2003 5:32 pm (#140 of 1326)
I don't know if this has been posted before but here it goes: in PoA Dumbledore says that at the time of Sirius' arrest he provided the information that Sirius was the Potter's secret keeper, therefore never knowing that Peter Pettigrew replaced him. We also know that Lily was quite good at Charms, would she have been the one to perform the charm, making Wormtail the secret keeper? Also (I'm just going to post it here, because it does have something to do with James): in OotP when Harry finds that Hedwig has been injured he rushes to the staff room where he finds that gargoyles are guarding the entrance. They say something to Harry, then add, "Sonny Jim" at the end. As we all know, Jim is a short form of James, could this be a possible clue as to his occupation? Although I would have thought that the Potters had more important careers, which is why they were wanted by Voldemort. It's just a thought!

Denise P. - Oct 22, 2003 7:32 pm (#141 of 1326)
They say something to Harry, then add, "Sonny Jim" at the end. As we all know, Jim is a short form of James, could this be a possible clue as to his occupation?

I am not sure what you think calling someone Sonny Jim would have to do with an occupation. Sonny Jim is a common enough thing to call someone when they have been naughty. I use it when I am irritated with one of the kids, I also use Buster Brown Like "Alright Sonny Jim, march yourself right up those stairs!" or "Listen Buster Brown, you may not like it but..."

Denise S. - Oct 22, 2003 7:35 pm (#142 of 1326)
"Sonny Jim" is a sort of generic nickname people give to strangers or kids they don't know. If it were a clue as to what James did, that would definitely take the cake for "clues that slipped under our radar."

zixyer - Oct 22, 2003 8:43 pm (#143 of 1326)
Someone pointed this out on the old board, but I thought I might repeat it since some people might not have seen it:

At the begining of the chapter "Luna Lovegood" in book 5:

Harry had a troubled night's sleep. His parents wove in and out of his dreams, never speaking ...
His parents ... never speaking ... could they have been unspeakables?

Sly Girl - Oct 23, 2003 12:51 am (#144 of 1326)
Actually, I'm sure we've discussed the 'unspeakable' thing right on this very thread... about a couple of dozen or so posts back.

loudtalker29 - Oct 23, 2003 1:44 pm (#145 of 1326)
Sonny Jim has to do with an occupation because the gargoyles that are guarding the STAFF ROOM said it. But you're probably right, it's just a common phrase!

Catherine - Oct 23, 2003 2:20 pm (#146 of 1326)
I have some thoughts about the "Sunny Jim" part of this thread.

First of all, in my text, page 357 of OotP, the gargoyle says, "You should be in class, sunny Jim." Not "sonny." I think this may change the context slightly.

What I found interesting about this exchange is that Harry is constantly told how he resembles James. To me, it was almost as though the gargoyle was confusing Harry with James. Confusing Harry and James is something that Molly and Hermione think Sirius is doing; Harry thought in PoA that he was his dad during the dementor scene; Dumbledore remarks on their extraordinary resemblance; and Snape seems to also think that Harry is just like James.

In addition, I noticed that on page 357 before the conversation with the gargoyle, Professor Binns calls Harry "Perkins." Remember Perkins from Arthur's Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Office? This isn't the first time that Professor Binns has called folks by the wrong name. When it happened in CoS (during the questions about the chamber), I attributed this lapse to his basic inablity to teach, and not caring enough to learn the students' names. But now I'm wondering if Binns sees a resemblance to Perkins? Binns is a ghost, so it is possible that he was teaching long enough ago to have taught him. He doesn't pay much attention to his students, so perhaps they all run together in his mind.

So while I don't have any insight about how the phrase "Sunny Jim" could be used to determine James' occupation as the thread above asks, I do think "Sunny Jim" might be a clue. It makes me think that James visited the staff room often enough for the gargoyle to know his name. Possibly for disciplinary purposes (we know he spent a lot of time in detention!), or maybe he had an especially close relationship with someone in the staffroom. Maybe that's why Lily accused James of "hexing anyone who annoys you just because you can." Maybe she wasn't just referring to pure ability to hex, but maybe James was allowed leeway. Snape seems to resent it whenever Harry gets away with anything; think back to PoA when he tells Fudge that "Potter (Harry) has always been allowed an extraordinary amount of license by the headmaster" (p387).

It all gets to be so interesting when one considers how history tends to repeat itself, especially as Harry was skipping Binn's History of Magic class (where he was called by the wrong name) when the gargoyle admonished him by calling him the wrong name. CoS was all about history repeating itself with the attacks on Muggle-borns by a monster from the chamber. We've seen time-turners used to literally do history over. Then there's the bell jar with the hummingbird life-cycle. Hmmmmm....

Peregrine - Oct 24, 2003 9:10 am (#147 of 1326)
Not to mention that the other time he went to the staff room was in CoS.

A-is-for-Amy - Oct 24, 2003 10:11 am (#148 of 1326)
It's an interesting comparison, Catherine. James possibly being allowed that extra leeway as well. It reminds me of Dumbledore telling Harry that he had not arrived at Hogwarts a pampered little prince, and it made me wonder if that is how James arrived there.

Haggis and Irn Bru - Oct 24, 2003 11:41 am (#149 of 1326)
I agree Sonny Jim is a customary term for someone that you dont know. Also it might be used to show a lesser degree of respect to someone you do not know.

Catherine - Oct 24, 2003 1:04 pm (#150 of 1326)
I didn't know about the term "sonny Jim," so I'm happy to know more now.

I'm still wondering if that applies here, since the gargoyles called Harry "Sunny Jim." As in sun, not son. Perhaps it doesn't matter.

Mona on Wed May 11, 2011 10:59 am

Denise P. - Oct 24, 2003 1:31 pm (#151 of 1326)
I always thought it was Sunny Jim over Sonny Jim but I think it is the same, regardless. I really don't think it has anything to do with James, it was just a choice of words JKR made.

Peregrine - Oct 24, 2003 2:09 pm (#152 of 1326)
Or the editor did it. Is it spelled “sunny” in the British version?

Madame Librarian - Oct 24, 2003 2:10 pm (#153 of 1326)
So, who is this Jim Perkins? And, why is he always so cheerful?

Ciao. Barb

Sinister Kittens - Oct 25, 2003 3:27 am (#154 of 1326)
Peregrin - in answer to your question, I have the UK version and it is Sonny Jim. But I agree that 'Sonny Jim' is a generic term used by an older person addressing a person younger than themselves who appears to be doing something that they shouldn't be. In this case being out of class. Just my opinion but I didn't even consider the possibility of this as a reference to HP looking like his father - then again in JKR's world - who knows?! ;-)

Catherine - Oct 25, 2003 5:41 am (#155 of 1326)
Sinister Kittens,

Thanks for letting us know that the UK version differs from the American version in the Sunny Jim scene. I'm surprised that they changed that, though. It makes more sense in the UK version, I think. I checked the Lexicon, and it was not listed as a difference between the versions.

Sinister Kittens - Oct 25, 2003 6:38 am (#156 of 1326)
Catherine - You are more than welcome. It is the litle differences that make this forum so fun! I'm sure that the moderators will pick this up but you can always mention it on the 'Questions for Hosts thread'. You never know...

Peregrine - Nov 3, 2003 11:35 am (#157 of 1326)
I think this is the best thread for my question, but if not, let me know…

Does anyone else find it odd that James called Lily “Evans” so often? I mean, I know he was doing it to look cool or uninterested maybe, but it just seemed like a little much. It’s almost as if JKR wanted to make darn sure that we knew what Lily’s last name was and drilled it into that scene. Or she wanted to be sure Harry knew what his mum’s maiden name was (assuming Petunia never mentioned it). Either way it seems fishy to me.

Madame Librarian - Nov 3, 2003 12:49 pm (#158 of 1326)
Peregrine, I think it accomplishes two things--

First, it's actually the way some people talk to each other when they are simultaneously attracted and antagonized by the other, especially in boy-girl relationships. It is quite a common device in books, film and even real life. (At my high school everyone either had a nickname or was referred to by their last name.)

Second, it's a natural way to tell us Lily's last name. I don't think it's a clunker. JKR handled it well, IMO.

Ciao. Barb

Ladybug220 - Nov 3, 2003 1:21 pm (#159 of 1326)
I agree with Madame Librarian... a lot of people called me by my last name in high school - male and female and teachers alike. My first name is Amy and it is very common name among girls in my age (28) so it was a way to differentiate us. Some people just liked the way my last name sounded so they used that instead.

Peregrine - Nov 3, 2003 2:14 pm (#160 of 1326)
Okay, that makes sense. I didn't think it was a "clunker" so much as it just stood out to me. Maybe it's because at my school no one was ever really called by their last name (my school was small and very rarely were there two people with the same name and in that event we just referred to them by their full name).

Still, I can’t help thinking there’s a reason for it being said so often. I’m drawn to that theory that Mark Evans might be a relation. Then it would be like how in PS/SS Sirius is barely mentioned and by the time you get to PoA, you’ve completely forgotten him. It would be the same here: Mark Evans is glossed over in the beginning and not until you read it again would you realize he shares Lily's last name, making him more pronounced, (assuming you haven’t spent months on a HP forum discussing all of this, that is).

Madame Librarian - Nov 3, 2003 4:37 pm (#161 of 1326)
I agree most definitely, Peregrine!

I had forgotten Mark Evans, and I never flipped back in a book so fast as when I joined the Forum and someone made oblique reference to that kid named Evans being a cousin maybe. I had completely missed it, even though I'd read the book twice by then. That's the peril in writing an 870-page, complex book, I guess. Or, maybe I've learned my lesson: read the HP books with all your antennas up and running.

Now, I admit that for me, the Mark Evans issue is one of the burning questions that I hope is answered in book 6 (the other two are Aunt Pet's backstory and good ol' Severus's true loyalties). When I have trouble sleeping, I imagine various scenarios till I'm so mixed up and sleepy that I just drift off.

Ciao. Barb

Mad Goose - Nov 4, 2003 8:05 pm (#162 of 1326)
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 5, 2003 3:32 am
I deleted one sentence in this post. - Kip

Okay, I just skipped down and started writing. I have an idea. James and Lily worked as Unspeakables. I'm almost convinced. What were they working on? How to reverse the Dementors Kiss. Possibly they (ma and pa evans) are behind the curtain with Sirius. James and Lily worked out of passion, we established this from the large bank account James has. So, because they were kissed by the dementors and the souls are gone to a place known or unknown the Potters were working on the reversal some how. This could also lead to some of the newer questions. What makes a wizard as powerful as they are. Or, to satisfy the mods, what makes Harry so powerful? Not only his invincibility towards Voldy, now. I'm talking about all of his power.

Mad Goose - Nov 5, 2003 5:27 pm (#163 of 1326)
I've been thinking about this for a while. We all seem to follow the impression that Harry is a powerful wizard. Was his father?

Marie E. - Nov 5, 2003 10:30 pm (#164 of 1326)
Well, in PoA when the teachers are in the Three Broomsticks pub discussing Sirius and James, Professor McGonagall refers to both of them as brilliant students but trouble makers. Being a good student doesn't make him a "powerful" wizard, so I don't think I actually answered your question.

I personally believe that he was pretty good, but there's something a little extra about Harry's abilities. That is my personal opinion and I don't have any references from the books to back it up.

S.E. Jones - Nov 6, 2003 7:30 pm (#165 of 1326)
We all seem to follow the impression that Harry is a powerful wizard. Was his father?

Well, in OotP, Lupin makes a comment that James and Sirius were the best at what ever they did. We got to see how good James was with using spells in an interesting way in Snape's Worst Memory. He was referred to as being more talented than Peter (who was able to blow up a street and kill 12 people with a single curse, don't forget). He was able to figure out how to become an animagus at a young age, along with Sirius, and then help his friend Wormtail become one too. He, along with the other Marauders, was able to create the Marauders' Map, a pretty sophisticated and complex magical item. I'd say, all things considered, that he wasn't exactly lacking in power....

Peregrine - Nov 7, 2003 9:33 am (#166 of 1326)
While I do believe James was powerful, becoming animagi and creating the Marauders Map seem more on the side of being clever than being powerful. These sound something more like what Hermione does as opposed to Harry—Hermione figures out how to do things while Harry does them. Like how Hermione outed the sneak reminds me a lot of the map…it’s probably something she had to research and create. Whereas Harry can cast a spell to repel a Dementor because he’s powerful—it’s not something he really had to use his brains for, just his will. Am I making any kind of sense?

I think James and Lily were both very powerful and gave Harry the best of their skills. But aside from bullying Snape, we haven’t seen a demonstration of James’ power yet—just his genius.

Mad Goose - Nov 7, 2003 7:31 pm (#167 of 1326)
Peregrine I agree with you. I think that Mr. Weasly is a great and brave wizard, but I don't think he's powerful. I also think that the reason Harry doesn't compare to his father academically is because he was 11 when he learned about magic, has had Voldy on his back since he was 1 and had the Dudleys to keep him down. James was pure blood so his family probably tutored and incouraged him more. I'm surprised Malfoy is not more skilled. I guess I'm asking if parents give you power?

A-is-for-Amy - Nov 8, 2003 9:05 am (#168 of 1326)
I think that a lot of the prowess we see from James and Sirius stems from their self-confidence. They are described as popular, and even arrogant. I don't think they ever had reaon to doubt that they wouldn't be great at magic, so they naturally were good at it. It's a great point that Harry may not seem as powerful as James because he was not introduced to the Wizarding world until he was 11. I think self-confidence plays a part in most areas of life, so I don'r see why magic wouldbe much different. Ron improved in Quidditch when his self-confidence improved, and the same goes with Neville and his magical talent.

Am I making sense?

Mad Goose - Nov 8, 2003 1:55 pm (#169 of 1326)
Yes Amy you made great sense. Neville improved 200% when Snape was not around. About James and Lilly. I'm afraid that James was a little pompus. I'm wondering where JKR is taking the scene in the pensive. What did it have to do with the story. I'm afraid I missed something.

Neville Longbottom - Nov 8, 2003 3:51 pm (#170 of 1326)
It had to do with the overall theme of "disillusion" in OOTP. Harry had to recognize, that not everything and everybody is as perfect as he thought them to be.

Madame Librarian - Nov 8, 2003 5:06 pm (#171 of 1326)
Also, that there is not always as definite line between good and evil. There's a lot of grey. People are not all good or bad at every stage in their lives; choices (perhaps, the major theme in the story) make a huge difference.

Ciao. Barb

S.E. Jones - Nov 8, 2003 9:02 pm (#172 of 1326)
A very good point Mdm. Lib., that certainly fits into the lesson of "the world's not made up of good guys and DEs".....

Madame Librarian - Nov 8, 2003 9:06 pm (#173 of 1326)
Sarah, I've been dying to ask--who's the teeny little 'un (as Hagrid would say) and the pretty gal? (I know it's off topic, but your new pic is so sweet.) I'll look for an answer on the chat thread.

Ciao. Barb

eggplant - Nov 27, 2003 9:26 pm (#174 of 1326)
Edited by Denise P. Nov 27, 2003 8:33 pm
Back in 1999, right after book 3 first came out Rowling gave a interview and somebody asked when we’d learn more about Harry’s mother, she said: “You’ll find out a lot more about her [lilly] in Book 5, or you’ll find out something very significant about her in Book 5”

And we did learn more about her, it turns out that Lilly hated her future husband James; but then she said something intriguing:

“then you’ll find out something incredibly important about her in Book 7.”

Here is my guess what we will see in book 7: It turns out that James had his faults but compared to Lilly he was a saint. She stuck up for Snape just because she could not stand a lousy Grifendor picking on a fellow Slytherin. Contrary to what nearly everybody thought the protection in Harry’s blood came from James not Lilly. She did not save Harry, in reality she was a horrible mother and betrayed her husband and her son to Voldemort. She did not die, she changed her name and became a Death Eater. Her new name is Bellatrix Lestrange.

“Do you miss your mommy little baby Potter, do you suck your thumb and cry yourself to sleep at night? No need to weep, she has returned. I am your mother!” “Nooo! That’s imposable!” “Search your feelings Harry, you know it is true.”

Eggplant

Denise P. - Nov 27, 2003 9:33 pm (#175 of 1326)
To say Lily hated James is a bit strong. She sure didn't have much use for him or have a very high opinion of him but I don't think I would classify that as hate.

As for the rest of your theory, nope. We know Lily was in Gryffindor, not Slytherin just as we know it was her blood not James that protects Harry. I just can't see where any of the theory would come to pass based on that.

A-is-for-Amy - Nov 28, 2003 7:48 am (#176 of 1326)
I agree. I don't think Lily hated James at all. I think that she was a decent person sho stood up for Snape becasue she felt she should (I'm also thinking she was probably a prefect), but that didn't stop a smile from briefly playing at her lips at one point while James and Sirius were tormenting Snape. I think that scene we saw in Snape's memory was the beginning of the beginning for Lily and James.

eggplant - Nov 28, 2003 9:14 am (#177 of 1326)
How do we know Lily was in Gryffindor not Slytherin? The books do not say.

Denise P. - Nov 28, 2003 9:36 am (#178 of 1326)
From the Second Scholastic Interview on 10-16-00, JKR was asked:

Q: Which house was Lily Potter in, and what is her maiden name?

J.K. Rowling responds: Her maiden name was Evans, and she was in Gryffindor (naturally).

timrew - Nov 28, 2003 11:09 am (#179 of 1326)
And one other thing, when Harry and Voldie's wands are connected by Priori Incantatem, Harry sees his mother coming out of Voldie's wand.

And how does he recognise her? From the Mirror of Erised and from the album of photographs that Hagrid gave him, and the fact that she says, "Your father's coming..."

So, unless Lily had an identical twin sister who was killed by Voldemort; and the real Lily then underwent major plastic surgery to turn herself into Bellatrix, I'm afraid that this theory just doesn't hold water....

eggplant - Nov 28, 2003 11:49 am (#180 of 1326)
To tell the truth I don’t think it’s likely my crazy theory will turn out to be true it’s just fun to ask what if.

Eggplant

S.E. Jones - Nov 28, 2003 11:49 am (#181 of 1326)
And Bellatrix had a twin sister who was one of three sisters who was the cousin of Sirius Black whom he recognized later and whom Harry recognized a younger version of in a picture at 12 Grimmauld Place while looking through Kreachers, er, room... Basically, it's pretty much impossible....

Jasmine Evans - Jan 7, 2003 2:33 pm (#182 of 1326)
Eggplant, you had nearly made me nervous. Lily being a Death Eater betraying her husband?

I prefer to believe she was a good witch. Not necessarily an angel, but still a mother Harry can be proud of.

Choices - Jan 20, 2003 11:24 am (#183 of 1326)
Indulge me here.....what if....on the night that James and Lily died, they didn't. What if the same love that saved Harry also saved James and Lily - their deep love for each other (and Harry) kept them alive? What if the public was just led to believe that they had died for some reason and they are really being kept somewhere in the Department of Mysteries? This would explain why there are no graves, no details of where their bodies are buried. What if they had the same power to survive the killing curse that Harry had? What if Hagrid (on Dumbledore's orders) not only got Harry out, but arranged for James and Lily to be secretly taken away without anyone knowing. Maybe as adults, the curse had more of an effect on them than it did on Harry. They could even be in comas or states of suspended animation as a result of the curse - maybe they aren't at the MOM, but at St. Mungo's in a hidden ward where they have been cared for all these years like Neville's parents. Maybe them coming out of Voldemort's wand in the graveyard is only because he thought he had killed them - it showed all the people on whom the Aveda Kedavra had been used, not knowing that two (plus Harry) had somehow survived. What if James and Lily are going to be a part of or are the secret weapon that Harry will use to destroy Voldemort and after he is vanquished, they will be returned to normal and they and Harry will live happily ever after? Lots of "what if's" - any thoughts??

Madame Librarian - Jan 20, 2003 12:41 pm (#184 of 1326)
Interesting "what if," Choices. Oh, boy, JKR will have to be very careful how she puts that all together if that's how it plays out, which is one reason I don't think it'll go that way. Also, didn't Sirius say something about seeing their bodies? Now, of course, there could be a twisty explanation for that--again something to do with Hagrid's activities. I think this theory is less of a long shot that the Lupin-is-James, Snape-is-a-vampire ideas, but it's still way out there.

Ciao. Barb

S.E. Jones - Jan 20, 2003 2:01 pm (#185 of 1326)
JKR has said in interviews that they did indeed die that night....

Tomoé - Jan 21, 2003 3:24 pm (#186 of 1326)
In the graveyard scene, the failed AK that did not kill Harry didn't show up as a ghost in the Priori Incantatem. Therefore, the shadows of Lily and James confirm their deaths.

S.E. Jones - Jan 21, 2003 4:27 pm (#187 of 1326)
I don't see how that proves it, but okay. How would the echo of the AK show up? The Crucio presented itself as screams and the AK curses that actually worked presented themselves as the echo of the people they killed, so what would a rebounded AK look like during Priori Incantatem, would it even show up? Hm, I wonder what thread I should post this to... Thanks for the thoughts, Tomoe....

Devika - Jan 24, 2003 10:48 am (#188 of 1326)
Choices, I totally love the idea.... I mean it could be the perfect ending if it only had a bit more to back it up:-( There have been no hints that James and Lily have tried to contact Harry or do much for him and that's not the attitude of a parent who's love saves the child from death. But I so wish it was true!

Choices - Jan 26, 2003 12:00 pm (#189 of 1326)
Maybe James and Lily are not able to contact Harry (like Neville's parents) or are being prevented from doing so for some greater purpose. (A "secret" weapon must, after all, remain secret to be effective). Maybe this is a sacrifice that must be made to bring about the ultimate defeat of Voldemort. They did leave him lots of money and perhaps were comforted to know that Dumbledore and Sirius would take care of him.

Ladybug220 - Jan 27, 2003 1:12 pm (#190 of 1326)
Edited by Dec 27, 2003 12:13 pm
Good theory, Choices (great name, by the way) but I don't see how it could actually work. These books are written through Harry's perspective. From all that we have seen, he has not asked about where his parents are buried, where they lived, and other possesions left behind - so we as an audience don't know those things (unless JKR has said in an interview).

If Lily hadn't died, then the proctection that Petunia provides wouldn't exist. Even Voldemort has said that he cannot see Harry in Petunia's house or while he is with her (there is debate as to how far outside the house that the protection extends).

I guess I am being slow but what "secret weapon" are you referring to? Are you saying that there is one or that there may be one?

Choices - Jan 27, 2003 2:36 pm (#191 of 1326)
The secret weapon is whatever is behind the locked door in the Department of Mysteries at the MOM - whatever it is will help Harry to defeat Voldemort. Many believe it to be "LOVE". I entertain the thought that it may be even more specific - a Mother's Love.

Ladybug220 - Jan 27, 2003 3:04 pm (#192 of 1326)
Ok, that makes sense. Thanks for helping me out.

OkieAngel - Jan 8, 2004 3:11 am (#193 of 1326)
Wow, this makes my head spin. Here I was confounded by lack of answers to questions such as where did all the Potter's and Evanses go, what about Lily's school friends, and just what is the big deal with her green eyes; whereas all the while ya'll have been conspiring that Lupin is James and they're all locked in the DOM. Man, I must need to do some serious re-reading of canon to catch up...

Smile

hopping hessian - Feb 11, 2004 7:15 am (#194 of 1326)
I really hope this belongs here, but I can't think of anywhere else to put it. I know that this isn't a movie thread, but the scene in SS that shows Lily dying is considered cannon, so I wanted to share something that I've noticed about it (and one of the reasons I believe that James was really there).

I believe that we see Lily and James in that reenactment. Voldemort walks up to the house, wand out, unlocks the door, etc. His wand is always out and we don't see his flesh. Suddenly, we're upstairs and Lily, holding Harry, screams and slams the bedroom (?) door shut in front of her. There is a figure in front of her and he (?) turns his back to the door and pulls out his wand. During my first few watchings, before I knew that JKR added this scene herself, I never paid much attention to it, and I thought the unknown figure was Voldemort. I now believe that this figure is James Potter. I you watch carefully, just before Lily slams the door shut, she screams "James". When she scream this the figure is facing her. As she slams the door, he turns and pulls out his wand. I know now that this figure cannot be Voldy, because a) he already had his wand out and b) why would he turn away from Lily?. Voldemort blasts the door open, and we don't see the green of an AK, so either he killed James and we didn't see it, or he killed him with the same spell that blasted down the door. If James was really Lupin and Lily knew about it, why would she call him James? You could argue that she was playing a part, but in a situation like that, people easily forget what they're suppose to say (especially since I doubt that they were expecting Peter to betray them). Also, why wouldn't she say "behind you" or "Voldemort?" Why "James" unless it was really James there.

Sorry for the long post.

haymoni - Feb 11, 2004 12:29 pm (#195 of 1326)
All right - now I have to watch the movie AGAIN!

I seem to recall James telling Lily to take Harry and run - he was going to face Voldemort. (This was during a dementor-fighting lesson Harry had with Lupin when he heard his parents' voices.)

I assumed that Lily yelled "James" because if Voldemort was standing in front of her then that meant James was dead. It wasn't a call of warning - it was one of anguish.

S.E. Jones - Feb 11, 2004 7:39 pm (#196 of 1326)
Ooh, hopping hessien, interesting idea. Great idea, in fact! I seem to remember something about James's line of "take Harry and run" being followed by the sounds of someone stumbling from a room, maybe they changed that to the door slamming in the movie...?

Sly Girl - Feb 11, 2004 7:51 pm (#197 of 1326)
Now see to me, the entire scene in the movie sort of contradicts what I thought I knew about what happened that night and it's made me believe that there was someone else there other than James and Lily. Maybe someone who showed up, to protect them...or help. Which would mean that HE is the person you see turning and that's why Lily is closing the door and screaming 'James' because she's alerting him to the fact that Voldemort has show up. But now I might need to re-watch the scene...

Chris. - Feb 13, 2004 6:06 am (#198 of 1326)
Could Lily have mistaken Harry for James?

She thought her husband was killed about 3 (?) minutes before, so why was he standing right behind Voldemort?

I know, I'm re-using the 'Harry mistaken for James' and the time travelling but I suppose it could happen.

scully jones - Feb 14, 2004 11:45 pm (#199 of 1326)
Hessian, I said the same thing awhile back... You just said it better so now people notice, funny... I agree with you that it was James at the door... She saw someone coming, yelled to warn him, and followed his advice to take harry... blah blah blah.

hopping hessian - Feb 15, 2004 8:56 am (#200 of 1326)
Sorry, I must have missed your post. I am glad that you agree with me. If James=Lupin, in my humble opinion , this would cheapen the series, it would be too contrived. Also, did not JKR say: "Voldemort killed James and Lily then tried to kill Harry." I don't think that she would have been that blunt if it was really Lupin.

Mona on Wed May 11, 2011 11:02 am

scully jones - Feb 15, 2004 6:01 pm (#201 of 1326)
I agree, the Lupin=James theory is cool to theorize about, but I hope it's not true... Also all the times she talks about Harry's parents being dead, she stresses that they're DEAD and cannont come BACK.

Jenny M. - Feb 15, 2004 10:38 pm (#202 of 1326)
I agree. It seems to me as though a major theme in the books is that sometimes good people die. It's awful, yes, but it's final. If she makes Lupin be James after all, she will reverse that message.

Mare - Mar 5, 2004 3:15 am (#203 of 1326)
I just had this idea (rare occassion) that the reason Lily turned from disliking James to liking James could be the Shrieking shack incident. After all, in a way James did the same there, that Lily did in the Pensieve incident: Saving Snape. Thereby he shows that he isn't truely evil after all and is willing to look after people, even if he doesn't like them. I searched this discussion and came across this:

James & Lily #120 - fidelio Sep 23, 2003 02:06 pm We've speculated that the "Snape down the Shrieking Shack Tunnel, face-to-face with Lupin, as a werewolf" episode may have occurred at the end of their 5th year--it's possible that the shock of this event, in addition to whatever little talk he and Sirius had to go through with DD, may have been the catalyst that started James's thoughts in a different direction. It's entirely possible Lily found out about this, sooner or later. Given the little we've seen of her so far, I imagine she'd have unloaded on both James and Sirius, and if James showed any contrition at all, this may have softened her up a little...
I was eager to read the discussion following it, but there is non. so I decided to give it another try. I think this a likely theory because it fits perfectly with all the information we already have. Leaving actually few information gaps to be closed.
The only thing I wonder about is, if Lily would like James for ending the trouble, how did she feel about sirius, him being the one to start it?

Choices - Mar 5, 2004 10:15 am (#204 of 1326)
I think a turning point in their relationship was when Snape called Lily a "filthy little Mudblood" and Lily replied, "Fine, I won't bother in future. And I'd wash your pants if I were you, Snivellus." When she calls Snape "Snivellus", I think she is acknowledging her dislike for Snape and seeing herself more on James' side from that moment on.

Psychedelic Enchantress - Mar 5, 2004 11:15 am (#205 of 1326)
True. I've always been sceptical about ideas of a Lily/Snape ship. From what I gather of the Pensieve scene, she goes to his aid not because she has any particular like of him (even if she had, it would likely be shot down by his 'Mudblood' comment), but because she is a fair person who doesn't like to see anyone be picked on, and she wants James to recognise his behaviour is out of order.

I still would love to discover when her opinion of James changes from seeing him as an arrogant blowhard, though...

Revelations are hopefully forthcoming in Books 6 and 7! (Let's hope Harry spends some time with Lupin, as he's the only one left that knows for sure)...

Mad Madame Mim - Mar 5, 2004 10:10 pm (#206 of 1326)
I always thought that Lily calling Snape "Snivellus" was just JKR's way of having Lily call Snape a word that wouldn't be proper for a children's book. If Snape had insulted me like that when I was trying to help, I was have called him a few choice names.

How many other times had Lily defended Snape? Did he ever show her and appreciation? I doubt it. It would be out of his character. Calling her a mudblood was her breaking point. I could see her saying to herself "No more help from me buddy, you're on your own. I don't have to take that treatment from you or anyone else." (Of course I in vision it with colorful adjectives. Wink

)

Peregrine - Mar 6, 2004 6:43 pm (#207 of 1326)
It would be interesting to learn when it was that Lily found out about Lupin being a werewolf (and the animagus stuff for that matter)...if it was something she just figured out on her own like the guys did, or something they finally told her when they realized she was part of the group, or she found out about the Shrieking Shack incident, or she and Lupin were close and he told her himself...

.*sigh* How long till the next book?

Chris. - Mar 6, 2004 7:53 pm (#208 of 1326)
Was Lily a Prefect?... If she was, her and Lupin would share duties and they would be quite close, bonding even closer when James and her started dating.

Peregrine - Mar 6, 2004 8:12 pm (#209 of 1326)
It seems probable that she was (being head girl later on) but when Ron and Hermione were made prefects that was the perfect opportunity to give us the information. Sirius could have said, no I wasn't one but Remus and Lily were. Unless Sirius and Remus could tell that Harry was bothered by not being prefect and didn't want to make him feel worse telling him Lily was (since he was a little happier learning James wasn't one)...

Jenny M. - Mar 6, 2004 8:42 pm (#210 of 1326)
I like to think that perhaps Lupin and Lily became closer when both were prefects, and Lupin helped bring her around to see James in a better light.

Chris. - Mar 6, 2004 9:06 pm (#211 of 1326)
Lupin is a Half-blood after all, so they might've talked about Muggle things as well as the Wizarding World.

S.E. Jones - Mar 7, 2004 2:25 am (#212 of 1326)
I don't think the fact that Lupin is Half-blooded means he is particularly knowledgable about Muggle things. Harry and Tonks are both considered "half-bloods" because one of their parents was a Muggle-born witch/wizard and, while Harry grew up with Muggle relatives, Tonks doesn't seem to know much about them despite the fact that her father's family would be Muggles.

I like the idea of him helping Lily to view James in a different light, though. I wonder if this might be particularly true after the Shrieking Shack incident. Lupin seems to have been the conscience of the group so he may have had some excellent insight into James's internal reactions to nearly getting a fellow student killed and a dear friend expelled.....

Chris. - Mar 8, 2004 6:22 am (#213 of 1326)
The stag which appears in the arms of many Munster families - MacCarthy, O'Sullivan and many others - relates very clearly to the kingship myth of the Erainn peoples. In this myth, the legitimacy of the ruling house is confirmed when a stag enters; the animal is hunted, and the border of the territory is defined by the chase; the future ruler is the individual who eventually slays the stag. What the many families displaying the stag in their arms have in common is that they were originally part of the great Eoghanacht tribal grouping, which dominated Munster until the time of Brian Boru. The stag was self-evidently an appropriate choice of symbol.

(Bold is mine) From: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

It could mean that the one who slayed the Stag (James) will be the future ruler. Oh no!...Voldemort!

scully jones - Mar 8, 2004 8:33 am (#214 of 1326)
Or the the person who is portrayed by the stag (James and now Harry) will be the ruler... YAY!!!

The stag is the head of house in the Farseer trilogy too... I never knew how common it was..

MrsGump - Mar 8, 2004 6:12 pm (#215 of 1326)
Another name for the stag is a hart.

I learned that while touring a castle that was built by George C Boldt for his wife on Heart Island in the Thousand Islands, NY. They used a stag in the coat of arms they had made for the stained glass windows and a stag statue they comissioned for on one of the roof tops.

So, does the stag Patronus and James's animagus form hint at Harry's ability to love?

icthestrals - Mar 10, 2004 8:44 am (#216 of 1326)
Oooo, MrsGump, what an interesting connection!

Molly Weasly Wannabe - Mar 11, 2004 12:04 am (#217 of 1326)
How can Harry's Aunt be a squib when in the second book Harry's mother is refered to as a "mudblood"? Even in the first book it states that Harry's mother was muggle born. (or at least I think it does...been awhile since I have read that book.) Anywho...I thought that being a squib is when you were born into a family with wizarding parents, but you yourself could not do magic of any sorts.

hopping hessian - Mar 11, 2004 6:55 am (#218 of 1326)
You're right. Petunia is just a plain muggle (unless she has magic that she has just suppressed). There's no doubt in my mind that the Evans were muggles because Lily is always referred to as a muggle-born.

Zoe's dad - Mar 18, 2004 12:54 am (#219 of 1326)
This may be a little off topic, and as I am reading this thread in the wee hours of the morning, I may have missed it. Does anyone know how the Potters defied Voldie three times? I have not seen it referenced anywhere. Did they defy him before or after Harry was born? If it was after, did they keep Voldie from killing Harry before the episode at Godric's Hollow. I kind of assumed they defied him before Harry was born, just by the way it was worded in the prophesy, but Maybe the prophesy it meant to read at the time Voldie marks Harry as his equal that James and Lily would have defied him three times.

Like I said, it is late and I may be delusional.

Dan

haymoni - Mar 18, 2004 6:12 am (#220 of 1326)
I'm guessing this is one of the topics that will be cleared up in Book 6. Harry will be asking more about his parents and his family history.

I'm wondering if James & Lily didn't do something to defy Voldemort while still at Hogwarts - "Special Services to the School" kind of thing - could be how they came to be Head Boy & Head Girl.

Jenny M. - Mar 18, 2004 6:37 pm (#221 of 1326)
It seems to me that the Potters must have completed all three defiances before the Godric's Hollow tragedy. Otherwise, Voldemort would have thought, "Hmm...Who could this prophecy apply to? The Longbottoms? The Potters? No, it can't be the Potters, they've only defied me twice."

Psychedelic Enchantress - Mar 19, 2004 9:31 am (#222 of 1326)
Was it this that inspired the amazing transformation? No one observing the 'Pensieve' scene would have picked James out as Head Boy material, especially when you consider he was not even a Prefect...

But when you look at past Head Boys, they really do seem to have been a mixed bag. We know that Tom Riddle was one- despite having been a brilliant student and all the other accomplishments he lists, I'm sure his involvement in the Chamber of Secrets affair had more than a little to do with it... Percy, although showing serious errors of judgement, especially in OotP, is the very model of the ambitious overachiever... Perhaps one reason James was made Head Boy was to keep Sirius under control (a similar reason to why Lupin was made a Prefect... not much use, as he wouldn't stand up to them!) But no, I would prefer something far more spectacular than keeping an unruly friend in check, so maybe this really is the reason why.

Choices - Mar 19, 2004 9:42 am (#223 of 1326)
I too am curious as to what the Potters did to defy Voldemort the three times and were these the same three times that the Longbottoms defied him? Did the Potters and the Longbottoms work together and were all four involved in the same conflicts or were all the conflicts seperate - in other words, were there six different conflicts or just three.

Peregrine - Mar 19, 2004 8:21 pm (#224 of 1326)
Or five...I have a feeling at least one of the confrontations was with both pairs together.

vball man - Mar 21, 2004 4:04 pm (#225 of 1326)
How soon after graduation did James and Lily get married? and what is the proof of this? I seem to remember that it was very soon after - with Harry following close. But I can't think where I heard (read) it.

Dr Filibuster - Mar 22, 2004 12:39 am (#226 of 1326)
There is no set date in the books. We just hear that they were very young.

We do know, however, that James and Lily were the same age as Snape. In a Comic Relief interview with JKR in 2000 she said Snape was 35/36.

This would be at the end of GoF, when Harry was almost 15. So, Lily and James were 20/21 when he was born. They only started going out with each other in their final year of Hogwarts so it doesn't give them much time together does it?

Incidentaly, Rowlings parents were 20 years old when she was born. She gave Harry her birthday, 31st July too.

Final thought...Tonks is probably about 22 years old. That's the age Lily and James were when they died. Tonks just seems so young. It's a poignant reminder for me.

Choices - Mar 22, 2004 9:42 pm (#227 of 1326)
I have developed a theory concerning James and Lily. In the course of watching The Sorcerer's Stone again, I began to think about the fact that the Sorcerer's Stone can be used to turn any substance to pure gold. Yet more emphasis has been placed on it's ability to prolong life than on the gold aspect. Now we know that James and Lily defied Voldemort three times. I propose that in one of those conflicts, they confronted Voldemort who had successfully stolen the Sorcerer's Stone from N. Flamel. James and Lily fought and retrieved the stone from Voldemort and gave the stone over to Dumbledore. Voldemort had planned to use the stone to make himself immortal, but he was also using the stone to create a fortune in gold for himself. This was possibly when Lily was pregnant, and as a reward, Dumbledore gave them a great amount of the gold that they confiscated. Now James had inherited a good bit of money, but this was pure gold and so it was placed in a vault at Gringott's for safe keeping and the key was given to Dumbledore in case anything ever happened to them. The gold was to go to their child. Harry is born and a year later, James and Lily die. It was during the next 10 years that Dumbledore got the idea to put a charm on the Sorcerer's Stone that would make it impossible for anyone to find the stone if they wanted to use it. Only someone (like Harry) who wanted to find the stone, but not use the stone, would be able to find it. So, when Hagrid takes Harry to Gringott's and the vault is opened, Harry is amazed by the sight of so much gold, and I think my theory may possibly explain where that gold came from. They then go to another vault to get the Sorcerer's Stone to take to Dumbledore. Of course, Harry doesn't know about the stone then, but I think the gold and the stone were placed in the vaults at about the same time by Dumbledore and the Potter's - right after they defied Voldemort, got the stone from him and were rewarded for their brave efforts by Dumbledore. It would have been enough to state that the stone could make the one who possessed it immortal, but JKR also said it could turn any substance into pure gold. I don't think she would tell us this and not give an example of it.

After the death of the Potter's, the 10 years pass and Voldemort plots again to gain possession of the Sorcerer's Stone. Book one is the story of his second desperate attempt to get the stone and achieve immortality. But then, Harry arrives at Hogwarts. And now......your comments please.

vball man - Mar 22, 2004 9:58 pm (#228 of 1326)
Interesting. I like it. The chocolate frog card said that Dumbledore worked on alchemy with Nicholas. How does that work in?

Tomoé - Mar 23, 2004 8:39 am (#229 of 1326)
Choices said : It would have been enough to state that the stone could make the one who possessed it immortal, but JKR also said it could turn any substance into pure gold. I don't think she would tell us this and not give an example of it.

But turning any substance into pure gold is what the philosopher's stone is best known for, I mean, not in Harry Potter books, in our real world. If a reader had already heard of the stone, s/he will think : "Yeah, the alchimists' stone that turn everything into gold!" and if a reader learn about the stone in HP, s/he will recognize the stone that change anything into gold. I remember Frolo was trying to make it in Victor Hugo's "The Hunchback of Notre-Dame". I think JKR add the gold thing as an identification device.

haymoni - Mar 23, 2004 9:28 am (#230 of 1326)
I remember the term "philosopher's stone" from the Elizabeth Enright book "Gone-a-way Lake". Some kids found a big rock and played a joke that they could turn things to gold by digging into it. Another "kids" book that would make a great movie.

I never understood why it was thought that Americans wouldn't understand "philosopher's stone".

Choices - Mar 23, 2004 10:41 am (#231 of 1326)
vball man - "Interesting. I like it. The chocolate frog card said that Dumbledore worked on alchemy with Nicholas. How does that work in?"

Dumbledore and Flamel were partners and together they made some important scientific discoveries - uses for dragon's blood and the Sorcerer's Stone among them. Flamel was quite a bit older than Dumbledore and after discovering the Sorcerer's Stone, he was content to slow down - retire if you will, so Dumbledore moved on to become a teacher and eventual headmaster at Hogwarts. Their friendship endured though, and when Voldemort stole the stone from Flamel, Dumbledore asked Lily and James to find Voldemort and get it back. They confronted Voldemort and retrieved the stone. Dumbledore took the stone, and to protect his old friend from further attempts by Voldemort to get the stone, Dumbledore placed it in a vault at Gringott's for safe keeping. He took it out from time to time to allow Flamel to make the elixir that was keeping him alive. Harry was born, the Potters died and you know the rest of the story.....

P.S. I had never heard of the Sorcerer's Stone prior to reading the HP books.

Tomoé - Mar 23, 2004 2:21 pm (#232 of 1326)
Of course you never heard of the Sorcerer's Stone prior to reading the HP books, because the only Sorcerer's Stone is in the US version of Harry Potter.

On the other hand, the Philosopher's Stone is a real alchemic term, the goal of all the alchemists, that can turn any metal into gold, heal any wound or disease and make any plant grow as fast as Jack's bean. That's part of the folklore, along with the Hand of Glory and the House Elves (I never heard of the House Elves before I read Harry Potter).

Chemyst - Mar 23, 2004 4:31 pm (#233 of 1326)
All the philosopher stone comments have been interesting, and without straying too much from the J&L topic, I have wondered where the Potter's got all the gold they left to Harry. Newlyweds, only a couple years out of school, spending most of their time working for the Order-- How well can that pay? The new OP seems to be mostly volunteer. And J&L recently bought a house? (I hope it was insured.) I know it is commonly assumed they inherited it, but that just "feels too easy" for the story. If the Philosopher's Stone was used to convert another substance to gold, does the substance of origin matter? And is blood involved? ...because DD had been experimenting with dragon blood. The Stone probably needs its own thread under magical items because the connection with James & Lily is long on conjecture and short on facts.

About a dozen posts back, the question of what the Potters did to defy Voldemort the three times was asked. And in the original post, it was suggested that Petunia learned about dementors from eavesdropping on J&L. I'm guessing that Petunia knows more about dementors than an overheard conversation; I think she likely was close enough to feel the happiness drain during at least one of those three times of defiance. As far as we know, Lily was close to her parents and if they were delighted to have a witch in the family, they were probably happy to have a wizard for a son-in-law and ecstatic with a grandson. (Poor Dudders got to be the baby of the family for only a few weeks before Lily came along with an even tinier, cuter model!) What if one of the Potter's Three Defiances had resulted in the death of Mr. and Mrs. Evans? Petunia's contempt for magic seems to go beyond jealousy. If she blames the WW for the death of her parents it would partially explain her mistreatment of Harry. Hm... now I wonder if Vernon is angry he didn't get much in the will -- if there was anything left to give that did not get blown up.

Prefect Marcus - Mar 23, 2004 4:54 pm (#234 of 1326)
Edited by Mar 23, 2004 3:55 pm
Rowling has stated in a number of interviews that the Potters inherited their gold. James inherited the Invisibility Cloak.

Eponine - Mar 23, 2004 4:54 pm (#235 of 1326)
Haymoni, "Gone-Away Lake" was one of my favorite books growing up. It was the first time I had ever heard of the Philosopher's Stone also.

As for James and Lily, didn't JKR say in an interview somewhere that James inherited the gold?

Found it. From the AOL chat October 19, 2000

What did James and Lily Potter do when they were alive?

Well, I can't go into too much detail, because you're going to find out in future books. But James inherited plenty of money, so he didn't need a well-paid profession. You'll find out more about both Harry's parents later.

Chemyst - Mar 23, 2004 5:10 pm (#236 of 1326)
Inherited then, huh? Eww... Don't tell me Lily just married him for his money!

Prefect Marcus - Mar 23, 2004 5:17 pm (#237 of 1326)
Edited by Mar 23, 2004 4:17 pm
Chemyst - "Inherited then, huh? Eww... Don't tell me Lily just married him for his money! "

But of course. He was rich. She's a witch. Now she's a rich witch.

Sounds like a match to me. :-D

Marcus

vball man - Mar 23, 2004 5:30 pm (#238 of 1326)
The witch switched, gave up her fists, loved the quidditch pitch, and became the rich witch. That's the Jist.

Madame Librarian - Mar 23, 2004 7:56 pm (#239 of 1326)
Which witch? The rich witch? Or did someone pull a witch switch? Help--I fell into a ditch! (Where'd that come from? Oh, I see, it rhymes.)

Then there's that whole business about the wizard lost in a blizzard...

Enough!

Ciao. Barb

Chemyst - Mar 23, 2004 10:31 pm (#240 of 1326)
One more, please, over here to the right, since I don't know how to align left without wrapping around the avatar:

So there once was a red-headed witch

Unimpressed by the Juggler of Snitch

But she courted that scallion

On account of his galleon

and now she is dead, though quite rich.

Prefect Marcus - Mar 23, 2004 10:36 pm (#241 of 1326)
Absolutely fantastic, Chemyst!

vball man - Mar 24, 2004 7:20 am (#242 of 1326)
sweet. <:-)>

Dr Filibuster - Mar 24, 2004 1:06 pm (#243 of 1326)
Where's Tim?

S.E. Jones - Mar 24, 2004 7:13 pm (#244 of 1326)
Neat!

Madame Librarian - Mar 24, 2004 8:27 pm (#245 of 1326)
Cute! But isn't scallion another word for green onion? Still it somehow works. Scallion is such a "witchy-y" sounding sort of word.

Ciao. Barb

Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Mar 25, 2004 10:36 am (#246 of 1326)
Barb, "scallion" should be " 'scallion " short for "rapscallion" (rascal or ne'er-do-well"). I too thought of onions. But very clever just the same.

Emily - Mar 25, 2004 1:14 pm (#247 of 1326)
LOL, but off topic... Does anyone really think that Lily was originally attracted to James when she heard he was rich? Do you think he was rich at that point? I don't, but I'm not sure. From Snape's Worst Memory, it doesn't seem like she'd be the type to go out with someone because they had money.

Padfoot - Mar 25, 2004 1:17 pm (#248 of 1326)
I don't think she was attracted to James because of the money. I think she started to like him when he acted more mature. I do hope we get some more background information on this. Obviously Harry is somewhat confused, perhaps he will ask more questions?

Prefect Marcus - Mar 25, 2004 1:32 pm (#249 of 1326)
I am predicting we are going to learn more about Lily in Book #6. We've seen James's old buddies. I suspect we will run into one of Lily's.

I think I will post this on the Prediction Thread.

I Am Used Vlad - Mar 25, 2004 1:40 pm (#250 of 1326)
Lily probably became attracted to James before he inherited his money. Remember, Sirius lived with the Potters during school holidays when he was 16/17 years old. So if Lily and James got together while at Hogwarts, it probably was for some other reason.

Of course, having rich parents never hurts.

Mona on Wed May 11, 2011 11:06 am

Emily - Mar 25, 2004 2:29 pm (#251 of 1326)
What reason was it? We know it was in 7th year, Lupin says so. Something about 'when James had deflated his head a bit'. I don't think Lily would have been hanging around James too much, so when would she have realized he wasn't a git any more?

Chemyst - Mar 25, 2004 3:32 pm (#252 of 1326)
Yes. Thank you, Kim. You're a good editor. "scallion" should be "'scallion " short for "rapscallion" Ah, the pesky apostrophe!

vball man - Mar 25, 2004 4:32 pm (#253 of 1326)
Well, this is just a theory - actually its less than that. Its a correlate of a theory. The theory is:

James had living parents around year 5-6 (Sirius went to stay). By 81, they were dead. If they were killed by Vol (or DEs) on his rise to power during James's 6th year, that would explain: James becoming more serious (saving Snape, and winning Lily). As well as James joining the OoPhoenix.

So then Lily would have fallen for James just after he inherited. Though not because he inherited. Just a theory.

Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Mar 25, 2004 6:03 pm (#254 of 1326)
Thank you, Chemyst. I had three years of correcting my husband's law term papers to hone my editing skills:) It's nice to know my English degree has not gone completely to waste.

Regarding James and Lily: Since they were both in the same house I'm sure she would have had plenty of opportunites to see how he had matured. I'm sure she would have become aware of him over time much like Ron and Hermione are becoming aware of each other at another level (ah, but that's another thread...)

Peregrine - Mar 25, 2004 10:02 pm (#255 of 1326)
My favorite theory so far (sad as it is) is that Lily's parents were killed when they were in their 6th-7th year and James deflated his head to comfort her and be her friend instead of trying to get her to date him.

We know James' parents were still alive at least for a little while when they were dating because Sirius got his own place when he was 17 but was still welcome at the Potter's for tea. So, unless Sirius was older than the others in his year, he got his own place the summer after they left Hogwarts. I think...did I do the math right?

Emily - Mar 26, 2004 10:39 am (#256 of 1326)
I like Vball Man's theory. It would explain a lot.

S.E. Jones - Mar 29, 2004 10:24 am (#257 of 1326)
Peregrine, you did the math right and Sirius was in the same year as James, etc. (thus making a hole in Vball Man's theory).

As far as Lily being attracted to James, I figured she was attracted to him long before 7th year, just wouldn't go out with him because she considered him too immature. I mean, for someone who isn't worth her time, she spent a lot of it noticing how he ruffled his hair to make it look like he'd just got off a broom and such. I think she liked him in spite of herself but waited for him to grow up before agreeing to go out with him. Now why did he grow up? Well, one theory was definately, as Peregrine pointed out, that he had to comfort her after her parents died (and the romantic in me absolutely loves it), but there's another one revolving around the Shrieking Shack. The theory is that James's head began to deflate somewhat after Snape nearly died (and, most likely, he, Sirius, and Lupin nearly got expelled) after the Shrieking Shack incident at the end of their fifth year. He then improved during the sixth and Lily started dating him in seventh. Reasons pointing to this are that Lupin looks very pale during the pensieve scene in OotP and Harry comments that a full moon must be approaching, they would've been around 16 at this time (Ron is 16 at the end of his fifth year so Sirius, who we know was 16 during the Shack incident, could've been too), and Snape may have wanted revenge for the public depantsing and thus wanted to get one of the Marauders into trouble....

Zoe's dad - Mar 29, 2004 9:47 pm (#258 of 1326)
S. E.

I agree with the part about Lily liking James before. She did seem to notice him a lot. IMO, It was when Lily defended Snape that James probably started to like her. He realized that he wasn't all he thought he was, and maybe saw her as somewhat unattainable because she wasn't fawning after him like a lot of other girls probably were doing. I had a friend like that in high school. most of the girl liked him. His attitude was similar to the one we see of James portrayed in the pensive. It was, however, the girl that did NOT fawn over him that he always went after, though. Sort a two birds in the bush being better than one in the hand theory.

I do wonder, however, if the image in the pensive are really how it happened, or if it is just how the owner remembers it. Three people can go through the same experience and come away remembering it totally different.

Dan

S.E. Jones - Mar 30, 2004 12:25 am (#259 of 1326)
Actually, I get the feeling he liked her long before the pensieve scene. You'll notice that he kept looking toward the lake where the girls were sitting while he was playing with the snitch and when Harry mentions it, Remus and Sirius automatically seemed to know Lily must've been around. I got the feeling he made an idiot of himself a lot around her even before that instance in their fifth year....

haymoni - Mar 30, 2004 6:32 am (#260 of 1326)
He was doodling her initials as well - do 15 year old boys do that?

Choices - Mar 30, 2004 11:03 am (#261 of 1326)
Zoe's Dad - I think you have something there - the memory is Snape's and he is bound to remember it differently than would James or Sirius. Afterall, he was the brunt of the teasing and it had to have seemed worse to him than perhaps it actually was.

hopping hessian - Mar 30, 2004 11:32 am (#262 of 1326)
That brings up the whole question of whether memories in the pensive are objective or not. I think that they must be because Snape didn't see James doodling Lily's initials, but Harry did. I wonder if the pensive is useful because people can look at their memories objectively and not see things just how they remember them. I believe that James was a bully, but good at heart. I know plenty of people who have been like that. Maybe he was like an addict. He bullied from an irrepressible compulsion and felt guilty for it later.

haymoni - Mar 30, 2004 1:46 pm (#263 of 1326)
How could Snape have known what the Marauders were saying?

He was far away from them.

The Pensieve is more powerful than that. I'm guessing if Harry wanted to, he could have followed Lily to find out what she said to her friends after the "Snivellus" incident.

hopping hessian - Mar 30, 2004 8:21 pm (#264 of 1326)
Exactly! I really hope that we'll find out more about Lily and her friends in the next book(s). We already know so much about James' world and I think that it's important that Harry know about his mother too. We know that everyone says how much Harry looks like James, but I wonder if Harry acts like his mother. Harry isn't arrogant or a bully at all, nor does he take unnecessary risks for the fun of it. From what very little we've seen and heard about Lily, I think he favors her in personality.

S.E. Jones - Mar 30, 2004 8:33 pm (#265 of 1326)
Perhaps that's the significance of his eyes being like his mother's. Eyes are the "windows to the soul" and Harry does seem more like Lily in spirit....

You know, we've been promised that we'd learn more about Lily for awhile now, it seems, but we still haven't really learned anything about her, except that she didn't date James until their last year because she thought he was too arrogant, so it's about time we did.... I think you're right, we'll meet an old friend of hers or something and find out a little of her backstory....

Tomoé - Mar 30, 2004 8:33 pm (#266 of 1326)
Maybe Lily's best friend is Alice Longbottom and they'll have to bring her back from madness to know more about Lily.

Peregrine - Mar 30, 2004 8:55 pm (#267 of 1326)
Do you suppose if Alice was one of the girls by the lake with Lily, Harry would have noticed her? He should have recognized her from the picture Moody showed him and because Neville looks like her. But on the other hand, it took him forever to recognize his own mother, so maybe not. We at least know they were in the Order together and pregnant at the same time so it's pretty likely Alice and Lily were more than acquaintances--even if they weren't close at Hogwarts, they probably were later on.

Tomoé - Mar 30, 2004 11:34 pm (#268 of 1326)
The other women member of VW1's Order were :

Marlene McKinnon ("she was killed two weeks after this was taken, they got her whole family")

Emmeline Vance ("A stately-looking witch in an emerald green shawl inclined her head.") she was in the advanced guard.

What was the name Hagrid named in P/SS? The McKinnon and the Bones, did he named anyone else (my PS is shamefully away -_-).

Edit : Sorry Peregrine, I forgot to answer you question (I know, I should be sleeping). Was Alice one of the girl by the lake? That's a possibility, we just don't know enough.

C.A. Thom - Mar 31, 2004 7:10 pm (#269 of 1326)
Hello, everyone. I just finished reading through this thread. Oh, my goodness! Of all the amazing theories and ideas, two stand out for me - J&L being Unspeakables, and J&L thwarting V. 3 times.

Now, I will need some help with the timeline, but please bear with me. If J&L worked as Unspeakables, then at some point they may have seen the orb of Tralawney's prediction. They would have known that Harry was connected to the prediction, and Lily, with her ability with charms, would then have been able to protect Harry with the ancient charm; this charm being one of the 3 times of thwarting V.

Timeline question - when did Tralawney give the prediction in relation to Harry's birth? Wasn't Harry's name added after he was born, thus possibly giving J&L information that convinced them to protect Harry? After all, they would have had to find out something that would make them want to protect Harry in the first place.

Another thought - if they were Unspeakables, then their knowledge of the prediction may be one reason why they went into hiding - so that V. wouldn't be able to force them to reveal the prediction. Could this be another thwarting?

Any thoughts? Thanks, Carla

Tomoé - Mar 31, 2004 7:53 pm (#270 of 1326)
'The official record was re-labelled after Voldemort's attack on you as a child,' said Dumbledore. (UK OoP p.742)

As Harry's name was added after Lily and James's death, they couldn't have learned it from the DoM. Plus, the prophecy said "born to those who have thrice defied him", so has the prophecy was made, they had already defied Voldemort three times, if not why Trelawney used a past tense?

lys potter - Mar 31, 2004 8:57 pm (#271 of 1326)
Tomoe - I think the other name Hagrid mentioned in PS/SS was the Prewetts.

The Lexicon indicates in the main timeline that Trelawney said "will be born" - future tense, not past. Is this right? I'm at work and don't have the book handy. In this is true, the prophecy was probably made while Lily and Alice were pregnant with Harry and Neville. Also, the official record was re-labelled because the attack on Harry marked him as Voldy's equal. That's how Dumbledore knows Harry is the one. We don't really have enough information to know what the prophecy said before the official record was re-labelled. It could've had both Harry's and Neville's names on it, in which case Lily and James could've found out about it from the DoM. However, I think that they found out from Dumbledore that Harry could be one of the possibilities and that's why they went into hiding.

Tomoé - Mar 31, 2004 9:59 pm (#272 of 1326)
The Prewetts, sounds right to me, thanks lys.

Sorry, I didn't express myself clearly enough. Trelawney used past tense in her sentence "born to those who have thrice defied him", so Lily, James, Alice and Frank should had already thrice defied Voldemort when Trelawney delivered her prophecy, therefore Lily's charm couldn't be count as one of the times as Carla suggested.

I think it was labeled Dark Lord and (?), because they didn't know which Dark Lord and therefore witch baby. As Voldemort attacked the Potters, it become clear that Voldemort was the Dark Lord and Harry the baby.

S.E. Jones - Mar 31, 2004 10:02 pm (#273 of 1326)
I thought Voldemort was always referred to as "The Dark Lord", as he is in the prophecy, it was just the baby part they were unsure of, hence the "(?)".....

Tomoé - Mar 31, 2004 10:06 pm (#274 of 1326)
Wasn't Grindelwald also referred as a Dark Lord?

Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Apr 1, 2004 4:59 am (#275 of 1326)
Tomoe, although Twelawney uses the past tense she is speaking of a future event. So they will "have thrice defied him" before the birth, not necessarily before the prophecy being made.

DD defeated "the dark wizard [different label/no capitalization] Grindelwald in 1945" -- I'm quoting from the Chocolate Frog cards. The term "Dark Lord" is used only to refer to Voldemort. The words "dark wizard" are merely a defining adjective for Grindelwald.

Tomoé - Apr 1, 2004 8:13 am (#276 of 1326)
Still, Lily's charm cannot be counted as one of the three times she defied Voldemort.

Thanks for the precision about dark lord and Dark Lord, Kim.

Prefect Marcus - Apr 1, 2004 8:40 am (#277 of 1326)
Edited by Apr 1, 2004 7:41 am
I agree with Tomoe. This prophecy has both future and past tense in it. Therefore it is logical to assume the tenses mean what they say.

The exact phrase is, "BORN TO THOSE WHO HAVE THRICE DEFIED HIM" (Capitalization in original) That has to mean that the parents would have thrice defied Voldemort at the time of the birth, which was still in the future. So they had between the time of the prophecy and the birth to fulfill that part if they haven't already. If defying Voldemort the third time had sent Lily or Alice into labor, the terms of the prophecy would have been fulfilled.

Tomoé - Apr 1, 2004 9:34 am (#278 of 1326)
Right Marcus, one of the times, for any of the four could be post-prophecy but prior-birth.

(I don't get it, maybe I'm just too thick, but what Capitalization in original means?)

S.E. Jones - Apr 1, 2004 9:43 am (#279 of 1326)
I think he means it is capitalized in the actual text, but it actually isn't. They use a sort of font that makes all letters capital but if you look, you notice that some letters are actually larger than others and these are the letters that would be normally capitalized if it were in a different font, the other letters would be lower case. I have that kind of font on my computer. It's called "Capitals" on my machine (a Mac).

Tomoé - Apr 1, 2004 11:20 am (#280 of 1326)
So, Capitalization in original mean in the original text, all the letters were capitalized. That's what confused me, in the original version, the letters are just in italic, the only capitals are the first letter (a T) and the Ds and Ls from the four "Dark Lord", everything else is in lower case.

Thus, the prophecy is capitalized in the US adaptation, but not in the original version, that's finally make sense. Thanks Sarah

Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Apr 1, 2004 12:42 pm (#281 of 1326)
Yes, I agree with you Tomoe. I don't think the charm Lily placed on Harry by her death counts. I didn't address that before.

I wonder if the Longbottoms also took precautions similar to the Potters (ie. Secret Keeper) after the prophecy was made. I assume DD would have notified both sets of parents.

S.E. Jones - Apr 1, 2004 2:48 pm (#282 of 1326)
Um, sort of, it's capitalized but some letters are bigger than others, those letters that are capitalized in the UK version, I believe.....

Molly Weasly Wannabe - Apr 2, 2004 2:53 pm (#283 of 1326)
Silly question here....But what is an Unspeakable? Please refresh my memory. Thanks

Prefect Marcus - Apr 2, 2004 2:54 pm (#284 of 1326)
An Unspeakable is someone who works in the Department of Mysteries.

Padfoot - Apr 2, 2004 2:56 pm (#285 of 1326)
Those are the employees in the Ministry of Magic that work in the Department of Mysteries. Since they can't (won't) talk about their work (as it is top secret) that's where they get the unspeakable nickname.

Madame Librarian - Apr 3, 2004 8:26 am (#286 of 1326)
I hope this is the right thread for this. Please switch if not.

On the Fawkes's third feather thread, we were discussing the bit about the "wand choosing the wizard." Here's the quote from ch. 5 of PS:

"Your father, on the other hand, favored a mahogany wand. Eleven inches. Pliable. A little more powerful and excellent for transfiguration. Well, I say your father favored it--it's really the wand that chooses the wizard, of course."

I was struck by the "powerful and excellent for transfiguration" phrase. Here's why (don't all jump on me at once): I am suspicious of James a little. The more we got into the anamolies of the Godric's Hollow scene--who's standing where, why is Lily shouting at a figure behind Voldie, all that--I've reluctantly entertained the idea that James is not the big hero he seems. Add to that the pensieve scene in OoP with James acting like a git (yes, I know they all were gits, but...), and my antennae were up. Now this bit about transfiguration.

So, a question--when the term transfiguration is used, what does it refer to? Charms to transfigure objects--a pencil to a cup? Or does it mean to transfigure living things to objects or other living things--Scabbers to a wineglass, Draco to a ferret, one person to another person (no polyjuice involved)? If it's all or the ones involving person to person, did James use his powerful wand and his skill to transfigure himself or someone else? If that's possible why did he do it--for good or evil? Gawd, I feel like a traitor just asking this question!

Any thoughts?

Ciao. Barb

Catherine - Apr 3, 2004 9:38 am (#287 of 1326)
Well, Barb, I think there's no harm in speculating about that night, because no one knows what happened.

But, I absolutely believe that James was brave that night. Voldemort, after taunting Harry in SS that his parents died "begging for mercy," admitted that they died bravely. In GoF, Voldemort admitted that James died "straight-backed and proud." When Lily came out of the wand, she seemed certain that James would do something to help Harry.

Lily could have been screaming because she saw James die.

No doubt we have much to learn about that fateful night.

Tomoé - Apr 3, 2004 10:42 am (#288 of 1326)
I think James's wand is excellent for Transfiguration and Transfiguration mean everything taught in MacGonagall's class, turn objects into objects, animals into objects and likely objects into animals and animals into animals (but that's Newt level).

Choices - Apr 3, 2004 10:58 am (#289 of 1326)
Madame, you may be on to something. We are told that James' wand was excellent for transfiguration, but we never see or hear of James using the wand for that......then why did JKR mention it? It must have some significance outside of just use in McGonagall's class....but what? I think it is a worthy topic for speculation.

Tomoé - Apr 3, 2004 11:02 am (#290 of 1326)
Maybe ... let's see ... transform into animagus?

Denise P. - Apr 3, 2004 11:04 am (#291 of 1326)
It is possible that a switching spell is a form of transfiguration. I think it very likely that James used a switching spell that fateful October evening.

Tomoé - Apr 3, 2004 11:12 am (#292 of 1326)
Wasn't MacGonagall saying to Neville not to let slip he wasn't able to do a switching spell in front of the Dumstang students? The most likely for her to know that is she taught him out to. So yes, Switching spell can be part of Transfiguration.

Remus - Apr 5, 2004 7:18 am (#293 of 1326)
Well Madam L, I found your post, thanks.

The question I would ask is, why would James want to transfigure himself into something else?

I am not sure what he would gain by transfiguring something into something else. Is it transfiguration in the same sense when one becomes an animagus, as far as we know it doesn't require a wand to change to your animagus and why is it so difficult to do if it is something you can learn easily in transfiguration class.

Also wasn't Lily screaming because Voldemort was about to kill her son, wasn't James already dead by the time Voldemort confronted Lily, after all Lily put herself between Harry and Voldemort, had James been alive wouldn't he have done it.

Was your thought born out of James being shown to be less then perfect in the Snape Memory and that made you wonder if James was a coward and allowed his wife to be killed. Which I would have to point out that you cannot form any judgment with regard to this memory it is hardly an objective view of someone when you enemy is called to give account of you.

There are a lot of things in that memory that are a little suspicious to say the least and more likely just plot device to show that James,Sirius and Remus were not perfect, rather than a revelation that James may have been a coward who let his wife die in the future because he was git when he was fifteen and did it by transfiguring into something else. What for he would have had to stay as that for the rest of his life.

However if you accept the preameters of the prophecy then you have to accept that James wasn't a coward, as he and Lily had to stand up to Voldemort three times in all, by the time that Lily and James die they have done that.

FCBarca - Apr 5, 2004 1:21 pm (#294 of 1326)
"Which I would have to point out that you cannot form any judgment with regard to this memory it is hardly an objective view of someone when you enemy is called to give account of you."

We know the memory is true because Sirius and Lupin confirmed it. Anything to do with changing something into something else is Transfiguration, I believe. About 'that night', I still have doubts that Harry survived because of Lily's protection.

Catherine - Apr 5, 2004 1:29 pm (#295 of 1326)
Well, FCBarca, Dumbledore seems to believe that Lily was a significant part of Harry's survival, and he's one of our big authorities in the novels. If you can't trust Dumbledore, who can you trust?

Even Voldemort admits that Lily's sacrifice gave Harry a protection that Voldemort had not foreseen. Voldemort seems to believe that Lily's sacrifice caused the curse to rebound back upon him.

Lupin shamed Harry in PoA by saying that his parents gave their lives for Harry, and that he "gambled their sacrifice for a bag of magic tricks." So Lupin seems to buy into this theory on some level.

There could have been more going on that fateful night, but for now I think the novels make it clear that Harry's survival and protection come from Lily.

Cheers.

S.E. Jones - Apr 5, 2004 2:04 pm (#296 of 1326)
I have my doubts about just what Dumbledore thinks of Lily's protection myself. After he tells Harry in PS that it was Lily's love that saved him he suddenly becomes very interested in a bird sitting on the window seal outside, like he's trying to find an excuse to not look at Harry for some reason. Perhaps this is a clue that there is more to the story?

vball man - Apr 5, 2004 2:08 pm (#297 of 1326)
Well, I think the bird was to change the subject. I think that the protection is true (Nice reasons above by Catherine Allen). But I think that was all DD wanted to say. He doesn't want to tell Harry much about the details of his "triumph."

Prefect Marcus - Apr 5, 2004 2:25 pm (#298 of 1326)
(From SS/PS)"Dumbledore now became very interested in a bird out on the windowsill, which gave Harry time to dry his eyes on the sheet."

(A page earlier)"Harry lay there, lost for words. Dumbledore hummed a little and smiled at the ceiling."

What do both these excerpts have in common? Simple. Dumbledore is allowing Harry some dignity. Dumbledore pretends to be focused someplace else in order for Harry to recover.

vball man - Apr 5, 2004 3:20 pm (#299 of 1326)
Well, Marcus, that makes sense. I still obviously think that DD is very reticent with regard to info about the curse/scar/power-transfer.

Prefect Marcus - Apr 5, 2004 3:36 pm (#300 of 1326)
Edited by Apr 5, 2004 3:36 pm
Oh, reticent he is indeed. Part of the reason has to be that he isn't all that sure of what happened himself. He has stated so on several occasions.

If we can believe what Rita Skeeter says, experts at St Mungus don't know either. You have to assume that experts in any given field will know more than Dumbledore in it, unless it is a subject that Dumbledore has trained especially for. The fact that he has repeatedly stated that he isn't sure strongly implies that he's not comfortable with his conclusions.

Now I still want to know about that gleam. :-)

Mona on Wed May 11, 2011 11:13 am

vball man - Apr 5, 2004 3:59 pm (#301 of 1326)
Well, I think DD does know all about it, as no one else does...

hopping hessian - Apr 5, 2004 5:28 pm (#302 of 1326)
I am suspicious of James a little. The more we got into the anamolies of the Godric's Hollow scene--who's standing where, why is Lily shouting at a figure behind Voldie, all that--I've reluctantly entertained the idea that James is not the big hero he seems. [Madame Librarian #286]

I believe that Lily was shouting at James. I don't know how to link, but if you go back to post #194, you'll see why I think this.

FCBarca - Apr 6, 2004 2:26 am (#303 of 1326)
Catherine, I wasn't saying Dumbledore was lying. I believe that they (Dumbledore and Voldemort) don't know the true reason, and they think that the reason is because Lily sacrificed herself.

First, I said I had doubts, so I'm not 100% convinced that Harry survived by some other means, but I think there is a chance.

One reason why I don't think Harry survived because of the protection is because people dying for other people would have happened lots of times before. Think of all the previous Dark wizards who must have tried to kill people, and the same effect happening (not necessarily with a child.) But if JKR said that it is too rare and not many people know about it, then I would have to accept that, however unlikely it is, because it is her book.

The main reason why I think Harry may not have survived because of the protection is because there are two books to go, and not one. The 'stage is set', you could say. The only thing that we need to know is why Harry is the 'one with the power', and how he is the 'one with the power'. That, I believe, will all be told in one chapter, or certainly one book. But with there being another book, I believe that some other major plot twist will creep in. So, I think that it has something to do with:

A) The prophecy
B) The protection and the circumstances surrounding it

I believe both have a cloud of mystery surrounding them. So I think both will have 'twists'.

Catherine - Apr 6, 2004 4:33 am (#304 of 1326)
FCBarca,

I did not mean to imply that you thought Dumbledore was lying, just that you didn't trust his explanation completely. Right now I do, because Dumbledore and Hermione are our big authorities in the texts. Dumbledore has said that the magic that saved Harry was very ancient, and the kind that Voldemort overlooked because it dealt with self-sacrifice and love.

I'm not sure that too many Death Eaters employ this kind of magic. If Voldemort, whose knowledge of magic (according to Dumbledore is perhaps the most extensive of any wizard) is so incredible, doesn't think of it, than why would anyone else?

I think there's lots we don't know about how this magic worked, or what specifically did not happen that night. I kind of like the mystery for now.

Cheers.

S.E. Jones - Apr 6, 2004 5:00 am (#305 of 1326)
Allow me to pose a question that I originally posted on the "Prophecy" thread: Why is it that Harry keeps saying that he doesn't know how/why he survived that night that the AK backfired but he knows that his mother's love saved him? Does he not want others to know or is that JKR's way of hinting that that's not the full reason he's alive?

Madame Librarian - Apr 6, 2004 5:30 am (#306 of 1326)
Possibly, Sarah, Harry keeps hearing this but because of a combination of not truly remembering the event, and not quite feeling that love that DD is always talking about, he keeps wondering if there was something else. Harry has now had three people sacrifice themselves for him--James, Lily and Sirius. Yet, as is typical often with children who lose loved ones, they (the kids) don't get the sacrifice concept, or the idea of fatal illness, or whatever, they just feel they've been left behind, and they are angry. It's got to be one of the most difficult mix of emotions to deal with as a young person growing up.

Think of this--Harry has been told for the first 11 years of his life, that his folks died in an accident because of James's drinking or other negilgent action (maybe he's heard this over and over). In other words, somehow the Dursleys have communicated to Harry that it was his parents' own fault, and here they've up and died and left him with these awful people. Even when he finally hears the truth (and not the whole truth quite yet, I think), he's still got some residual anger. Emotions like that don't just--poof!--evaporate because someone tells you they died to save you. Now, with Sirius, it's a bit of the same thing. It's very hard for a young person, longing for a family to love him or her, or even one special parent relationship, to not think along the lines of "Why did they have to be so dedicated to the Cause? Aren't I important, too? Other parents wouldn't do this and put their kids as risk." Now, these thoughts are not so clearly articulated. They're in there though, along with guilt for even thinking them.

So after my long (sorry) comment, I'm left with the answer to Sarah's excellent question in post 305 that Harry just doesn't get it. Maybe he will someday (behind that door to the DoM?), but right now he's caught up in the stormy mixed emotions he's held inside for all his life.

Ciao. Barb

vball man - Apr 6, 2004 7:50 pm (#307 of 1326)
FCBarca, a few posts up you say that DD may be mistaken in his idea that Harry "lived" because of mom's sacrificial love. You could be right, but I was thinking of other things DD has said, and it seems to me that DD is willing to say so if he's not sure.

Was Crouch Jr guilty? "As to that, I have no idea."

Are there any known instances in the books where DD says he knows something, and it turns out to be wrong?

FCBarca - Apr 7, 2004 5:25 am (#308 of 1326)
True Vball Man, but I was thinking along the lines that he is certain Harry survived because of his mother's protection, i.e. he has no idea Harry could have survived by other means. It's just good planning by JKR, but Dumbledore never mentioned the reason why Harry is the only one who can defeat Voldemort, so I believe even he doesn't know the true reason why Harry is the only one who can defeat him (although it is likely he does), and as I believe the reason Harry survived the curse may have something to do with Harry being the 'one', I believe Dumbledore wouldn't know why Harry survived because he may not know why Harry is the 'one'.

Tom Vitleysa - Apr 7, 2004 8:43 am (#309 of 1326)
I can't help wondering if DD didn't help set something up. When he wanted to protect Harry he sent him to the Dursleys, which utilizes this very basic and powerful magic that LV alway forgets about. Maybe he did something similar before Lily & James were killed. A last resort spell with Lily. Lily may have know that if LV killed her to get to Harry then Harry would be protected. I don't really think that that's something DD would want to admit to Harry in a hurry. I just think it somewhat questionable that someone who has faced LV three times before would put any hope in pleading with him, unless that was just a ploy and her real hope was to be killed before Harry was. Where was her wand anyway?

Tomoé - Apr 7, 2004 1:31 pm (#310 of 1326)
I was thinking something like you, FC Barca, maybe Harry is just unAKable, a rare gift like parselmouth or matamorphomagus (sp?). Maybe James and Lily's sacrifices were useless.

Right at the beginning, when [Voldemort] tried to kill Harry, how did [Voldemort] and Harry both survive?
JK Rowling replies -> That is the crucial and central question and if I answered it there would be hardly any point writing books six and seven... so I won't!

There's definitely something tricky going on there, but what?

vball man - Apr 7, 2004 1:34 pm (#311 of 1326)
Yes, TomV, I've had that feeling for some time. DD could have said to Lily, "If Voldemort does find you, you must not let him get to Harry. You will give your life for him, if it comes to that."

Prefect Marcus - Apr 7, 2004 1:38 pm (#312 of 1326)
I doubt the rare gift. Instead, I suspect it is centered on the charm Lily cast on Harry.

We are told a number of times that Lily was good at charms. Maybe her sacrifice sealed the charm for Harry.

Rowling doesn't want to get into the details of the charm because that would give away the ending.

Marcus

DJ Evans - Apr 7, 2004 4:46 pm (#313 of 1326)
It still amazes me when I think about it how baby Harry only came out the whole LV thing with just a lightening bolt shaped cut, no other cuts/scratchs/bruises anything. Just a cut--yet the Potter's house was destory!!! That just makes me think that there was a very good chance that some other charm had been placed on Harry. And just like Prefect Marcus said Lily was good at Charms!!

rambkowalczyk - Apr 8, 2004 9:37 am (#314 of 1326)
I agree with Prefect Marcus that Lily had to actually do an incantation or something on Harry before she died. Because of the stress involved I don't think this is something most people can do therefore it doesn't happen all that often.

Sherbie Lemon - Apr 11, 2004 7:40 pm (#315 of 1326)
Very interesting thread! Its length is quite daunting, but I couldn't avoid it any longer as I have some questions and opinions to contribute regarding Lily. After reading (or skimming) 314 posts, I am hoping to avoid any repetition. Nonetheless, feel free to pounce on me if I'm being redundant. Bear with me now, this post is going to be a little long.

Here's a question that's been bothering me for some time. Did Lily place the charm on Harry, or did Dumbledore? Now, Lily gave Dumbledore the "ingredients" (the actual blood protection) to make the charm work, but wasn't it Dumbledore who actually cast the charm? Meaning, wasn't it Dumbledore who actually uttered the incantation that made the charm effective or powerful?
"And so I made my decision. You would be protected by an ancient magic of which he knows, of which he despises, and of which he has always, therefore, underestimated - to his cost." (OotP p.835 US)
"But she [Petunia] took you...and in doing so, she sealed the charm I placed upon you. Your mother's sacrifice made the bond of blood the strongest shield I could give you." (OotP p.836 US) (the bold "I's" are not in the original text)

Now, in regards to the possible other charms Lily could have placed on Harry, I must say I think it's quite probable. The pain, anger and sheer adrenaline she must have felt both on the weeks her family spent in hiding, and especially on the night Voldemort attacked, could have given more power to her charms or charm. I'm basing this thought on the stories of mothers who are empowered with supernatural strength when their child is in danger. One that comes to mind is the many accounts of mothers lifting up cars to free their trapped kid. Adrenaline and fear overcome these women and fuel them with incredible strength. I would think the same type of power would be put into Lily's charm work, making them extremely concentrated and hard to break.

And another thing that's been driving me up the wall is the following answer JKR gives to this question dated October 1999:
"Hi, I really like the books and we already learned a lot about Harry’s father and I was wondering ‘Are we going to learn a lot about his mother?’
'Yeah, you will. It’s ---- yet again ---- you won’t find out ---- OK, in Book 3 you’re absolutely right. You find out a lot about Harry’s father. Now the important thing about Harry’s mother, the really, really significant thing, you’re going to find out in 2 parts. You’ll find out a lot more about her in Book 5, or you’ll find out something very significant about her in Book 5, then you’ll find out something incredibly important about her in Book 7. But I can’t tell you what those things are so I’m sorry, but yes, you will find out more about her because both of them are very important in what Harry ends up having to do." ( [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] )
Am I missing something here? What is the "very significant" thing we found out about Lily in OotP? Is this referring to the fact that Lily defended Snape and hated James? Or is it something more subtle? I remember on this forum long before I was a member and right after OotP came out, reading a theory that Lily was in love with Snape and vice versa. Was this theory blown to bits? I just don't think Lily defending Snape qualifies as "very significant." At least, not based on the information we currently have. Help!

Sorry if this either of these questions belong elsewhere. Please let me know and I'll gladly move them.

Marie E. - Apr 11, 2004 9:11 pm (#316 of 1326)
Well, we learned that Lily's maiden was Evans, that as of their fifth year she didn't think highly of James Potter, that she would stick up for people even if she didn't like them personally,...anyone else got something?

Tomoé - Apr 11, 2004 11:10 pm (#317 of 1326)
Er... She let slip more info about WW to her sister that we knew ... ?

Madame Librarian - Apr 12, 2004 5:05 am (#318 of 1326)
I vote for the " really significant thing" in OoP as the pensieve picture we get of Lily--defending Snape, detesting James. That was such a huge scene in every sense, and I believe JKR was referring to that. The Evans maiden name business could be bundled in with that as also important, or just have been thrown in as a red herring (making Mark Evans one, too). I'd like to think not, but I wouldn't be my last knut on it.

Ciao. Barb

mike miller - Apr 12, 2004 6:58 am (#319 of 1326)
Sherie Lemon - That is a very astute observation about the verbage DD uses when describing the protection placed on Harry. I had not caught that before.

I think the two important things we learn in book 5 is that Lily's maiden name is Evans and that people can change. The Evans name could be a red herring as mentioned by Madame Lirarian, but like her I think not. I still go back to the Mirror of Erised where Harry sees at least 10 family members, some with green eyes. I'm still "confunded" about this and what it might mean later in the story.

As for the second revelation, people can change, I think this is central to the story. The choices that people make is key, it can overcome all prejudice and preconceived notions about people. Lily changes her feelings about James and Snape changes, at least inwardly, about the Dark Arts.

Unfortunately, we have to wait to see how JKR chooses to unfold the story.

haymoni - Apr 12, 2004 7:02 am (#320 of 1326)
I figured it was Dumbledore's explanation that Sherbie Lemon referenced earlier - Lily's protection of Harry. It had been mentioned in other books but not to the extent that it was in Book 5.

Catherine - Apr 12, 2004 7:21 am (#321 of 1326)
Sherbie raises an interesting point about Harry's blood protection.

The quote Sherbie provides, though, is Dumbledore's explanation for why Harry had to grow up with the Dursleys--because Voldemort's followers might try to finish what Voldemort started. In this way, Sherbie is correct. Dumbledore did perform a charm to keep Harry safe in his aunt's home. This ancient protection would keep him safe.

In my opinion, this quote isn't necessarily evidence that Dumbledore was directly part of the "boy who lived" phenomena. Dumbledore, Voldemort, and Lupin have all told Harry, in one way or another, that Harry lived through Lily's sacrifice.

But, Sirius has alluded to dying for others several times. He admonished Peter in PoA that "You should have died, as we would have done for you." He tells Fred and George "there are things worth dying for." Perhaps to be in the Order there is a "code" or ideal that involves self-sacrifice. Dumbledore mentions that death is "the next great adventure." So while I think that there's no direct proof that Dumbledore did a spell that enabled Harry to live that night, I do wonder if James and Lily's participation in the Order of the Phoenix enabled them to give Harry his chance at life.

Sherbie Lemon - Apr 12, 2004 1:52 pm (#322 of 1326)
Marie E., we already knew Lily's maiden name was Evans. JKR revealed that little tidbit in a Scholastic chat in 2000.
Which house was Lily Potter in, and what is her maiden name?
Her maiden name was Evans, and she was in Gryffindor (naturally). [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Tomoe, I think Harry's finding that Petunia has retained pieces of information about the WW is not what JKR was meaning. In that scene, we discover something "very significant" about Petunia, not Lily.

I'm glad you think the pensieve scene was probably what JKR was alluding to, Barb. Now, I don't feel as stupid. I guess her phrasing it as "very significant" is what threw me. In my humble opinion, I think that Harry's revelation about his mom and dad isn't all that incredible. Perhaps it will become more so however, as the series progresses.

I do believe with some certainty that it was Dumbledore who placed the charm on Harry. Like I said earlier, without Lily's love there would have been no charm to cast, but I strongly feel based on the Headmaster's wording in OotP, that he was the creator of the charm. Yet this seems to bring up more questions than answers. For instance, how did Dumbledore know what exactly happened at Godric's Hollow? How did he know that Lily sacrificed herself for Harry's survival? In the beginning of SS/PS when we first meet Dumbledore, he has not been to Godric's Hollow as Hagrid is the one to fetch Harry from the rubble. This must have taken place minutes after the attack, so did Dumbledore cast the charm when he heard what had happened, or when he saw Harry, or was this a prearranged agreement between he and Lily? Concerning the latter, I like Catherine's idea about a code to which the members of the Order adhere, but what about the other questions? Thoughts?

mike miller - Apr 12, 2004 2:33 pm (#323 of 1326)
I still think that Lily's maiden name could be one of the significant things we learn in OotP. We should use information from the books to build theories and then try to use interviews and other sources to confirm/deny the theories. The scene with James and Sirius tormenting Snape is the first time we learn Lily's maiden name.

As far as the charm, follow this series of events and see if it's holds water:

1) The Order has been opposing LV for some time. In fact, both the Potter's and the Longbottom's has stopped his plans 3 times each. 2) DD is looking to fill the vacant Divinations post at Hogwarts. This presummably occurs during the break between years, say July. He receives the prophecy for Trelawney and takes steps to protect both families. 3) They beleive there is a spy in the Order so DD is extra careful. 4) Both families are going under the Fideleous (spelling?) Charm to protect there location, the Potter's first. LV attacks before the same can be dome for the Longbottom's. 5) DD gives Lily and James instructions on how to active a Charm that would protect Harry should LV find them. 6) Peter betrays them, LV shows up in Godric's Hollow, James buys Lily the time to activate DD's charm and LV is thwarted.

I think many things were happening very quickly during that time. LV's power was reaching it's zenith, yet the Order was thwarting his plans. LV does not have a patient, understanding character, He's furious! DD moves quickly once he has received the prophecy. Realizing that no wizard has much chance face to face with LV, DD's trying to provide as much protection as he can.

I'm jotting this down quickly as it comes to me, please help me find the holes!

Denise P. - Apr 12, 2004 3:18 pm (#324 of 1326)
The scene with James and Sirius tormenting Snape is the first time we learn Lily's maiden name.

Nope, we have known since 2000 that her maiden name was Evans. JKR gave that info in an interview. I don't know how you can discount her very factual "Her maiden name is Evans"

Prefect Marcus - Apr 12, 2004 3:47 pm (#325 of 1326)
Too often we Harry Potter fans immediately assume that Dumbledore is behind anything and everything that is good. The supposed charm placed on Harry that protected him from Voldemort's AK is a prime example of this.

I, for one, believe that a charm WAS placed on Harry, but I am inclined to think that it was his mother who did it through her own initative. Why must Dumbledore be involved? We know her wand was excellent for charm work. Hagrid described her as a very powerful witch, though he is known to dabble with exageration.

The reason I think Lily did it on her own is the fact that Dumbledore seems to be feeling his way through all this. He never seems to be quite sure what is going on, and what all the possible outcomes may be. It's an effect that he isn't completely familar with, so he is seems to be trying to work backwards attempting to understand it fully.

Now it is certainly possible that Lily discussed the charm with Dumbledore before she died, so that Dumbledore has a basic knowledge of what's going on. That could explain "The Gleem". But I suspect that something is different from the standard version of the charm, so Dumbledore is still trying to piece together exactly what happened and how it all fits.

Sherbie Lemon - Apr 12, 2004 4:13 pm (#326 of 1326)
Mike, see my post before yours. As Denise says, I quoted the interview (dated three years before OotP was released) which states that Lily Potter's maiden name was Evans and her house was Gryffindor.

As far as your theory goes, I think it may have some possibility. Yet I have a feeling that Lily's sacrifice was spontaneous. Just like any good mother, she gives her life without thinking, without hesitating, for her child. It may be the wording, the shrieks of terror and cries from Lily that Harry hears on several occasions when confronted by dementors, boggart or real, that makes me think her act was not pre-meditated.
"And then he heard it again...Someone was screaming, screaming inside his head...a woman...
'Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!'
'Stand aside, you silly girl...stand aside, now...'
'Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead -'
A shrill voice was laughing, the woman was screaming, and Harry knew no more." (Prisoner of Azkaban p.179 US)
"But the classroom and the dementor were dissolving...and his mother's voice was louder than ever, echoing inside his head -'Not Harry! Not Harry! Please - I'll do anything-'
'Stand aside. Stand aside, girl!"(PoA p. 239 US)
"...Then came a new voice, a man's voice, shouting, panicking -
'Lily, take Harry and go! It's him! Go! Run! I'll hold him off -'
The sounds of someone stumbling from a room - a door bursting open - a cackle of high-pitched laughter -"

It all seems much too frantic to be expected. I believe that Lily and James had all their faith in the Fidelius charm and had never expected a betrayal that would lead them to come face to face with Voldemort. Yes, everyone believed a traitor to be among the members of the Order, but no one suspected Peter or Sirius. I could not imagine a conversation between Dumbledore and Lily and James, where he tells them:"Now, in case this charm doesn't work, we have a backup plan. Lily, as you have one remaining family member, you must make sure Voldemort kills you first." How morbid! Also, I would not think that Lily would want her baby to be doomed to a life of negligence and abuse at the hands Petunia and Vernon. She knew full well what they were like.

But here's a very interesting fact I just stumbled upon. Harry was not delivered to the Dursley's until the day after the Potter's were killed. In SS/PS, it begins with Vernon noticing all the owls and strange folks celebrating. Why one of them even tells Vernon, "Don't be sorry, my dear sir, for nothing could upset me today! Rejoice, for You-Know-Who has gone at last! Even Muggles like yourself should be celebrating, this happy, happy, day!" (Sorcerer's Stone p.5 US) So this would mean that during that day proceeding Voldemort's defeat, Dumbledore, in his infinite wisdom, discovered Lily's sacrifice and created the charm.

Sorry this post is so long, I got a little carried away!

Maollelujah - Apr 12, 2004 4:53 pm (#327 of 1326)
I don't think Lily put any charm on Harry, but rather her sacrifice initiated the placement of an ancient magical charm on Harry. Even Voldie suggests the same idea in GoF.

"His mother died in the attempt to save him - and unwittingly provided him with a protection I admit I had not foreseen..."

"... My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice..."

hopping hessian - Apr 12, 2004 5:10 pm (#328 of 1326)
I still go back to the Mirror of Erised where Harry sees at least 10 family members, some with green eyes. I'm still "confounded" about this and what it might mean later in the story. [Mike Miller #319]

Personally, I think it means nothing. Dumbledore said that the Mirror did not offer knowledge or truth. Harry saw a large family that looked like him because that's what he wanted to see whether or not it was true.

As for Lily's charm, I agree that it was simply dying for Harry though I do wonder a little because in the March 4th interview when someone asked JKR why Harry survived and Voldemort didn't, she said that if she said why, she might as well not write the last two books.

mike miller - Apr 12, 2004 6:23 pm (#329 of 1326)
All - Thanks for the insights. It seems clear that the events of that night in Godric's Hollow hold some key point for the final encounter with LV based on JKR's March 4th interview.

Marcus - I do look to DD to provide leadership here. He has been at the forefront of battling the Dark Side for some time (at least since 1945 and his defeat of Grindelwald). Once DD had the prophecy, he knew Harry had to be protected at all costs. Lily's sacrifice was the final key ingredient to protecting Harry.

Sherbie - It was frantic, that's why I think something had to be in place ahead of time. It may be a bit morbid, but I can see DD telling Lily and James that Harry must be saved at all costs. It may have taken DD the extra day to make Lily's spontaneous sacrifice at the moment to protect Harry for years to come through the blood link to Aunt Perunia.

Hopping - I know the Mirror discussion and it not necessarily providing knowledge or truth, I just have a hard time with JKR having that whole epsiode be a throw away.

It is my hope the we get at least a few answers early in book 6. Coming to grips with Harry's losses (both parents and Sirius) is a key to his maturing without becoming bitter. They say that which does not kill you will make you stronger.

Dumbly-dorr - Apr 12, 2004 8:11 pm (#330 of 1326)
Yes, I agree. Godric's Hollow does hold some key points. Also, that Dumbledore did do some planning to make sure that Harry was saved at all costs, even if that cost was the life of Harry's parents.

Dumbledore knew the prophecy firsthand and knew that either Harry or Neville were the only ones who could defeat Voldemort. The fidelius charm came first (first that we know of) and next came anything else that DD could come up with. He does, after all, have great power and must have great knowledge to wield such power, remembering ancient magic, especially considering his age (is he ancient, too?)and his special abilities. Abilities such as seeming to know ahead of time about events, the scene in his office when he overcame Fudge, the Aurors, and company, and then when he rescued Umbridge from the centaurs unscathed when they had bloodlust to satisfy and had sworn themselves against the wizarding world.

Peregrine - Apr 12, 2004 10:40 pm (#331 of 1326)
Also, I would not think that Lily would want her baby to be doomed to a life of negligence and abuse at the hands Petunia and Vernon. She knew full well what they were like.

Except Harry was supposed to be left with Sirius. Lily probably had no idea Dumbledore would take him away from Sirius and that Sirius would land in Azkaban.

I think there was a theory ages ago before OoP (or maybe in the beginning of this thread--who knows anymore) that James and Lily were working on a counter-charm for the AK curse. This doesn't sound very nice, but maybe Harry was the guinea pig. Or maybe they tried this experimental charm on everyone but it was only the combination of the charm and Lily's sacrifice that made it work. This theory may account for James not having a high-paying job--if he was just tinkering on counter-spells all day.

Chemyst - Apr 13, 2004 6:51 am (#332 of 1326)
I vote for the " really significant thing" in OoP as the pensieve picture we get of Lily--defending Snape, detesting James - Madame Librarian

"Lily defended Snape" is the way that scene came across when I first read it. But as I've worked through the Snape thread and have seen more of his point of view, and then add that to the fact we know that James & Lily eventually married, my perception of that scene is changing. I'm not as sure Lily was defending Snape as much as she was using him as ammo in a lover's quarrel with James. For that incident to be ranked among Snape's worst memories, he may have understood that Lily was not defending him nearly as much as she was just using him to fight with James.

We know James already liked Lily at this point. She was (at least partly) aware of this and could easily have been playing 'hard to get.' This interpretation makes her motives far less noble too, but I think it adds a balance that keeps her a real person who loves with flaws instead of propagating the St. Lily image.

Madame Librarian - Apr 13, 2004 8:20 am (#333 of 1326)
Either way, Chemyst, I think it's the significant thing JKR meant.

Just had a thought--taking Chemyst's analysis of Lily's motivation in that scene, we have yet another example of a character being both good and bad at the same time. This being one of the themes--people cannot be simply classified good or bad, there is too much "grey" in the world--JKR is being quite subtle, but it's there nonetheless. Such a clever author.

Ciao. Barb

Prefect Marcus - Apr 13, 2004 2:28 pm (#334 of 1326)
Edited by Apr 13, 2004 2:29 pm
I am no longer sure James and Lily were Head Students in their seventh year. If I recall, we only have Hagrid's word for it. Is this not correct? If so, Hagrid is not the most credible witness. He does tend to exagerate and just plain get things wrong far too often.

Do any of you know any evidence outside of Hagrid in the first book? If not, I think I will change James and Lily were Head students in their seventh year from "IS TRUE" to "IS MOST LIKELY TRUE".

Dumbly-dorr - Apr 13, 2004 7:46 pm (#335 of 1326)
I'm not too sure about being fed disinformation, even if it is from Hagrid. An author's purpose is to weave a plot through the characters and what they tell us through their dialogue. I would feel really cheated if we were led on a wild goose chase, being given wrong information just to lead us away from drawing a correct conclusion. JKR is much too good an author for that. It may not even be an important point to the story that James and Lily were head boy and girl, it might just be a way to let us see Harry's pride in his parents as being good, or achievers, or (you fill in the best adjective).

haymoni - Apr 14, 2004 5:22 am (#336 of 1326)
Someone pulled the quote that Percy was "our newly elected Head Boy".

If that's the case, neither James nor Lily needed to be a Prefect to be Head Boy and Girl. They could have just been most popular or, maybe, already had defied Voldemort while still at school thus earning the respect of the student body.

Maybe only 6th years vote on who will be the next Head Boy & Girl which would explain why we haven't heard about any elections.

Accio Sirius - Apr 14, 2004 6:45 am (#337 of 1326)
Perhaps to be in the Order there is a "code" or ideal that involves self-sacrifice. Dumbledore mentions that death is "the next great adventure." --Catharine Allen

I like that notion that there is something about self-sacrifice and the role it plays in the books. Voldermort and his Slytherin pals certainly wouldn't understand that, as Phineas points out that Slytherins tend to look out only for themselves. Plus, it sort of keeps the door open for James, Lily and Sirius. Not to come back from the dead mind you, but that this kind of love lives on past the next great adventure. Just a thought

Chemyst - Apr 14, 2004 7:07 am (#338 of 1326)
...there is something about self-sacrifice and the role it plays in the books. Voldermort and his Slytherin pals certainly wouldn't understand that... Straying slightly from James & Lily, Snape seems to be an exception to this Slytherin mind-set. Perhaps it is some aspect of Snape's apparent understanding of self-sacrifice that enables Dumbledore to trust him. It also raises the question of what Snape really thinks/understands about Lily's sacrifice...

Tomoé - Apr 14, 2004 5:56 pm (#339 of 1326)
haymoni, I was the one who pulled the quote in which Percy was said "the newly elected Head Boy*". I agree with you, only the sixth-year students seems to elect the future Head Boy and Girl among themselves.

I don't think the Slytherins would not die for something they believe in, they are ready to take any means to achieve their goal after all, and if the only mean is to get kill, they will. Maybe will see Bellatrix become a kamikaze**, but I don't think someone like Lucius have Voldemort's triumph as his ultimate goal, so he'll try not to get kill in VW2.

* UK PoA, ch.4, p.51
** Just as a side note, kamikaze have to root characters, kami - god and kaze - wind, the word means divine wind.

vball man - Apr 14, 2004 7:42 pm (#340 of 1326)
There is misinformation from characters.

Karkaroff claimed in his trial that "- we never knew the names of every one of our fellows - He alone knew exactly who we all were -" But that isn't the case. Later, Snape says, "...When he touched the Mark of any Death Eater, we were to Disapparate, and Apparate, instantly, at his side. ..." Indeed, at the graveyard in GoF, the whole gang of DE's showed up, leaving obvious gaps where their members were missing. Karkaroff obviously didn't want to spill to many beans at his trial.

FakeMadEye claimed that there was no blocking Avadra Kedavra. But it has, so far been blocked by 1- Mother's Love 2- The Joining of Wands 3- A Golden MoM statue, 4- A Desk(maybe) and 5- Fawkes (probably)

The desk is a maybe because the curse was poorly aimed, but seems to have been stopped by the desk. Fawks is a maybe because the curse is called another jet of green light. I assume that Vol once again used the AV.

Prefect Marcus - Apr 14, 2004 9:23 pm (#341 of 1326)
Well Vball, they all appeared in the graveyard hooded and masked. They went to assigned spots in the circle. He only mentioned the names of a handful. These were likely well known among them already.

Moody was likely talking about magical blocking. Physical imposition seems to work on all spells. We haven't seen any spell yet that will go around corners.

Of the five items listed, only Mother's love and Priori Incantatem aren't physical imposition. And we're not sure yet that Mother's love is good enough all by itself. That leaves only the very rare P.I.. You can't blame Pseudo-Moody for not thinking of that.

Even if he had, can you imagine him saying something like, "Yes children. If faced with A.K., be sure that your wand is the brother of the other one. Oh, and shoot a spell right at your opponent so that the beams hit each other head on." Not too practical, eh?

Chemyst - Apr 15, 2004 6:15 am (#342 of 1326)
"Priori Incantatem (is)n't physical imposition" Are you saying that you believe that the beams emitted from the wands have no physical substance/mass, but are more like pure energy?

Prefect Marcus - Apr 15, 2004 7:59 am (#343 of 1326)
Are you saying that you believe that the beams emitted from the wands have no physical substance/mass, but are more like pure energy?

Whether they are or not, if there is something solid between the wand and the target, the target will escape whatever effect you are attempting.

Tomoé - Apr 15, 2004 8:27 am (#344 of 1326)
Wasn't a time when Harry and Draco spells were cast in the same time and were both deviated to Harmione and Goyle (or was it Crabbe) even if they were aiming at each other?

Could that work for AK too?

Prefect Marcus - Apr 15, 2004 8:30 am (#345 of 1326)
Tomoe,

Yes it does. That's what triggered the P. I., if you recall.

We're going OT again. Too bad. This is interesting.

Tomoé - Apr 15, 2004 8:59 am (#346 of 1326)
Yes, it triggered P.I., but could anyone deviated AK with another spell as long as they shot in the same time as they opposant do?

Prefect Marcus - Apr 15, 2004 10:12 am (#347 of 1326)
Edited by Apr 15, 2004 10:13 am
That would be like deflecting an arrow by shooting another arrow to intercept it. Doable, but not practical.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled topic. :-)

Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Apr 15, 2004 2:36 pm (#348 of 1326)
Marcus, I have a rebuttal to your physical imposition theory, but don't want to continue it here, OT. Any suggestion on which thread I should post it? Thank you.

Tomoé - Apr 15, 2004 2:40 pm (#349 of 1326)
Harry is really lucky then, deviated a spell by casting another simultaneously twice in a year. Could Lily charm effects increase the odds too? ^_^

Mare - Apr 15, 2004 2:46 pm (#350 of 1326)
And here I am sitting and wondering for five minutes why you guys are going in Over Time...

LOL!

Mona on Wed May 11, 2011 11:36 pm

Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Apr 15, 2004 2:50 pm (#351 of 1326)
Mare, don't feel bad. I had to ponder that OT for at least 5 minutes as well.

Catherine - Apr 15, 2004 3:14 pm (#352 of 1326)
Wait, you mean it didn't mean Occupational Therapist?

Oh, well...

Detail Seeker - Apr 15, 2004 3:16 pm (#353 of 1326)
Marcus, intercepting arrows with a counter arrow is, what anti-misile missiles successfully (well, sometimes)do....

Kim, your proposal would be good for a new thread - Theory of Magic or Theory of Spells. Please do post such a thread, I like such threads. Other theoretical discussions about the functioning of spells can be found in the archieved section.

Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Apr 15, 2004 3:24 pm (#354 of 1326)
I'm ashamed to admit this, but I have absolutely no idea how to start a new thread (cue the "I'm not worthy" chant now please).

Prefect Marcus - Apr 15, 2004 3:33 pm (#355 of 1326)
I just created it. Come on over.

In the future, all you have to do is click on "add discussion" on the home page.

Marcus

EDIT: It's called, "Can anything block Avada Kadavra?"

S.E. Jones - Apr 18, 2004 2:17 pm (#356 of 1326)
Bear with me, I've been gone for awhile:

Sherbie Lemon: post 315 Did Lily place the charm on Harry, or did Dumbledore?
post 326 Dumbledore, in his infinite wisdom, discovered Lily's sacrifice and created the charm.

So, going back to the charm/protection discussion, what was the verdict exactly? The way I read it was much the way Sherbie did in that last quote I cited, that Lily sacrificed herself for Harry which aided him in (note I said "aided him in", not "protected him from") surviving the AK and Dumbledore used that sacrifice to fuel the protection charm at Privet Drive.

To the same extent, if I could go back to the night James and Lily died... Something I've always wondered is whether Lily and James knew about the prophecy or not, i.e. do you think Lily was consciously sacrificing herself for her child, as in she knew giving her life would give him a protection, or was she just a frantic mother trying to reason with a madman. She says, "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead..." which tells me she either didn't know about the prophecy (because, if she did, she would've known that he alone was the target and she wouldn't do as a replacement) or she knew and was trying to goad him into killing her to provide the protection to Harry....

mike miller - Apr 18, 2004 5:15 pm (#357 of 1326)
I think Lily and James definately knew about the prophecy. (see my post #323). The prophecy was probably the reason they were going into hiding. The Order had been opposing LV for some time. Exactly how long we do not know, but long enough for Lily and James to defy LV three times.

DD receives the prophecy between years at Hogwarts, say July or August. My guess is that the Order had some kind of Headquarters similar to #12 GP in the first war; however, in light of the prophecy additional steps needed to be taken. Lily and James are moved to Godric's Hollow to protect Harry.

I also think DD would have given Lily and James special instructions should something go wrong. There were suspicions of a spy in the Order, so I think DD would take every precaution including pulling some very ancient magic out of his hat! (or maybe his last wool sock).

Natasha - Apr 20, 2004 2:31 am (#358 of 1326)
Hmmm...I beleive James and Lily Potter are dead. But where on EARTH are Lily's friends. Sirius in Harry's godfather and probaly knew Harry before J+L died. Wouldn't you be excited if your best friend had a child? Or maybe they're dead too? (Note: Nicholas Flamel was a real alchemist.)

Tomoé - Apr 20, 2004 5:07 am (#359 of 1326)
Maybe one of Lily's friend is deeply sick in St Mungo's (Alice Longbottom?), maybe one was killed (Marlene McKinnon?), maybe she got at odds with another one (?) and another one married a foreign wizard (?). There so many ways to loose contact.

Peregrine - Apr 20, 2004 8:42 pm (#360 of 1326)
Or they each dated Sirius at once point and would no longer hang out with Lily because she was always with James who was always with Sirius.

mononoke - Apr 21, 2004 4:03 am (#361 of 1326)
How can you come up with that idea!O_o hmm...Sirius dating Lily's friends,I'd love to see that;) ps.I'm new here.nice to meet you all!

Tomoé - Apr 21, 2004 9:13 am (#362 of 1326)
Or they just couldn't stand James and leave Lily alone after their seventh year. ^_^

haymoni - Apr 21, 2004 9:50 am (#363 of 1326)
The only reason we really know about the friends of James is the Marauder's Map and the events in POA.

Maybe we'll learn more about Lily, her family and friends in Book 6. I just can't imagine Harry not pounding Petunia with questions, especially now that the Order is there to scare her.

Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Apr 21, 2004 10:04 am (#364 of 1326)
I think more information about Lily will come, but I don't know if Harry wants to get it from Petunia. Will he want to get information about the woman who sacrificed her life for him from the sister who despised her, her husband and their entire lifestyle? I expect Harry to approach the person who's always been a steady anchor and now the only one left who can speak knowledgeably about Lily and James--Lupin, of course.

haymoni - Apr 21, 2004 11:11 am (#365 of 1326)
I figured Harry would ask Petunia about his family history - grandparents and such. I also think he will ask her if she still has Dumbledore's letter that was left with Harry on the doorstep. He may also ask her what she understands about the protection he has been under.

I agree that Lupin will be the source for James & Lily's relationship. It seems to me that he will be more sensitive when relating the info to Harry than Sirius would have been.

Tomoé - Apr 21, 2004 11:28 am (#366 of 1326)
Still book 6's summer is the shortest stay ever in #4 Private Drive, maybe Harry won't have the time to ask her and we will have to want for book 7.

Now the important thing about Harry’s mother, the really, really significant thing, you’re going to find out in 2 parts. You’ll find out a lot more about her in Book 5, or you’ll find out something very significant about her in Book 5, then you’ll find out something incredibly important about her in Book 7. The Connection, October 1999

Unless JKR chose to move Lily's important revelations from book5 to book 6, I don't see her telling much about Lily in book 6.

haymoni - Apr 21, 2004 11:45 am (#367 of 1326)
I think I put it in "the shortest stay" thread - I think Harry is going to ask his questions and then as soon as possible he will hold his wand up and say "Lumos". The Knight Bus will come and wisk him away.

Then he will verify his answers with Lupin. I hope he gets to know his parents a bit more. They seem like such good people.

Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Apr 21, 2004 1:56 pm (#368 of 1326)
Well, haymoni, I think getting answers out of Petunia will be like pulling teeth. But, she's been known to cough up information before, so who knows?

Tomoe, thank you for citing the interview link. I was able to read it for the first time and noticed something interesting...JKR mentions that a really terrible female character will appear in Book 4, but we all know that it happens in Book 5. So I'm thinking that it is possible the significant thing about Lily we were expecting in Book 5 may not show up till Book 6. I know I'm not alone in thinking that it didn't seem to play out in Book 5. Of course, I'll still be waiting for the truly important revelation in Book 7.

haymoni - Apr 21, 2004 4:11 pm (#369 of 1326)
Could Rita Skeeter have been "really terrible" enough for Book 4?

I agree though that Umbridge is pretty vile.

Maybe the thing we found out about Lily was that she hadn't always liked James. It wasn't a "love at first sight" kind of thing. I also think that we saw that she was very talented. James recognized her abilities. He almost seemed to be afraid of her.

Sherbie Lemon - Apr 21, 2004 4:31 pm (#370 of 1326)
Kim, I'm in total agreement. I believe Umbridge was the horrible woman and we really never found new information about Lily that was really significant. Perhaps we will in 6!

freshwater - Apr 21, 2004 6:50 pm (#371 of 1326)
Nice avatar, Sherbie. I particularly like DD looking over Harry's shoulder.

Chris. - Apr 25, 2004 8:12 am (#372 of 1326)
I think Lily had an attraction to James, but refused to admit it. Realising that the 'Smart Guy' act won't get him anywhere, he deflated his head a bit, and she gave in to his charms and started dating him.

Sherbie Lemon - Apr 25, 2004 8:02 pm (#373 of 1326)
Thanks, Freshwater, but I've changed it already. One day I was really bored and decided to make a ton. I'm going to keep changing them till the movie premieres!

I agree, Kingsley. It's one of those love/hate things. Reminds me a bit of being in middle school. Usually, you endure horrible teasing from your crush. I think Lily may have thought that she was not in the same standard as James too. I know that sounds a little strange, but think about it a minute. James is this cute, funny, incredibly popular guy who's a quidditch hero and very intelligent at that. I get the feeling that Lily hated James because she dared not like him. Perhaps she was afraid that if she acknowledged her feelings and attraction for him, she would be opening herself up for future rejection.

Then there's also the reality that many times boys are interested in the girls who seem to be the greatest challenge. Once they've won the girl over, they lose interest. Lily could have secretively liked all the attention and flirtations from the popular boy, but was afraid of giving in because she wanted to maintain the attention. James seemed to have a short attention span; add to that his being a seeker and roaming around with a werewolf. This seems to suggest that he loved a challenge and thrived in dangerous situations. What's challenging about a girl who finally succumbs to your advances? Yet I'm sure she also felt that agreeing to go out with James would have only encouraged his cocky behavior.

Peregrine - Apr 25, 2004 9:33 pm (#374 of 1326)
Or if Lily's friends didn't like James they could have easily swayed her feelings for him. If they thought he was obnoxious and annoying she might not have dared to let herself like him for fear of what her friends would say. I remember there being several boys I wasn't allowed to like back in high school just because my friends didn't like them either...stupid peer pressure.

Chris. - Apr 26, 2004 8:45 am (#375 of 1326)
People are saying where are Lily's friends but I don't think she had any.

Thinking she was different because of her wizard-hating sister, Petunia, she tried to distance herself from the other Hogwarts students. She secretly had a crush on James Potter, the intelligent, good looking guy who all the popular girls want to date but she thought she had no chance with him. She found friendship in Severus Snape, who like herself was a 'loner'. When she got the Prefect title, she became aware that she wasn't different and changed.

Catherine - Apr 26, 2004 9:31 am (#376 of 1326)
I rather assumed that Lily did have friends--in the Pensieve scene, I thought perhaps she was with the group of laughing girls who were cooling their feet in the lake. When Lily came over to defend Snape from James, Harry observed that "It was one of the girls from the lake edge." (p647, Scholastic).

So here, at least, Lily was with a group of girls who were having a good time together. I know that Kingsley was speculating that she "changed" after becoming a prefect, but I can't see any real evidence for this.

Choices - Apr 26, 2004 10:30 am (#377 of 1326)
I don't think Lily was ever friends with Snape. I think she is simply a decent person who hated to see anyone teased and made a fool of. I think that was her first time to step in and defend Snape and after what he calls her, I also think it was the last time.

Peregrine - Apr 26, 2004 12:07 pm (#378 of 1326)
It's interesting that none of her friends defended Snape with her. Or defended her against Snape's comment for that matter. Did they not care or did they just figure she could look after herself?

Denise P. - Apr 26, 2004 12:51 pm (#379 of 1326)
Well, if you look at the scene from the perspective it was seen from (Snape's) and you buy into the Snape loves Lily crowd, it is not surprising we don't see Lily's friends. It is Snape's memory and he was focused on Lily. I don't believe that Lily was friendless.

S.E. Jones - Apr 26, 2004 8:46 pm (#380 of 1326)
Maybe Lily's friends didn't leave the lakeside. They could've argued with her going over to help Snape because one of them had tried it before and had been called names or because they've witnessed one too many attempted interventions in James's behaviour on Lily's part and knew she wasn't getting through to him and was just going to be in a bad mood for the rest of the day, and so waited for her back by the lake, rolling their eyes.... Also, there was a gathering crowd around Snape and James when Lily came over so it would've been easy for them to get sort of lost in the crowd and not be able to hear what he said to her or something (not quite as likely in my opinion)....

NYCNomad - Apr 27, 2004 6:44 am (#381 of 1326)
Sorry if this was already covered, but why aren't there any Potters on the Black family tree? Or mention of Weasleys being related through a third cousin twice removed? It is made out that the Potter line is a long standing family of great wealth, but there is no other mention of the lineage.

Verbina - Apr 27, 2004 10:20 am (#382 of 1326)
Anyone that did not fit the Black family ideals was removed from the tree. So if you married a muggle, befriended muggles, favored muggles etc etc etc you were gone from the family tree.

NYCNomad - Apr 27, 2004 12:06 pm (#383 of 1326)
But they at least mentioned the Weasleys were like Blacks second cousins or something, there's no refrence to James' relation.

Chris. - Apr 27, 2004 1:11 pm (#384 of 1326)
Purebloods are all inter-related in someway. The Potters were pureblood so I don't see why they shouldn't be on the tapestry, unless because they fought against Voldemort, they were taken off it.

S.E. Jones - Apr 27, 2004 2:26 pm (#385 of 1326)
Well, we think the Potters were a pureblooded family but I don't think the books ever actually say that. They imply that the family is old and has inherited wealth, like the Blacks, but maybe they aren't enough generations in from a Muggle-born ancestor to be considered "pureblooded" by the wizarding world's standards as yet....

Also, it could just be James was in no way closely related to Sirius and so Sirius didn't mention him as he was trying to show good, fairly close connections to sort of cancel out the close connections with Bellatrix Lestrange and Narcissa Malfoy. Sure all the pureblooded families are interrelated, but that doesn't make everyone second cousins or anything. Maybe the connection just goes back way too far for Sirius to think of mentioning.

Or, since I doubt the tapestry has every descendant on it (it probably just marks to a certain degree of relation and then stops, i.e., it would mark Lucius down but not his parents and siblings and it would mark Draco down because his mother was a Black but maybe not his children or grandchildren because they wouldn't be Blacks but would belong to the Malfoy line), it is possible that the person from James's family who appears on Sirius's tree isn't named Potter....

NYCNomad - Apr 28, 2004 6:15 am (#386 of 1326)
But that would mean that "Potter" was always a muggle name and a pureblood witch married him and took his name. I'm talking myself into believing that the Potters were not as pureblood as we might be thinking. Wouldn't Sirius want to tell Harry about his lineage and ancestory? If there was any connection wouldn't he be eager to share that to relive "the good ol' days" with James through Harry?

Verbina - Apr 28, 2004 9:26 pm (#387 of 1326)
I was wondering though...if the Potters were pureblood but did not hold to the same line of thinking as the Blacks going back many many generations, they may have been wiped from the tree a long time ago.

Plus it may be that like you said NYCNomad. The Potters may not be purebloods in as they are willing occasionally to marry Muggles or muggle born witches/wizards. I just get the feeling that the Potters went more with the Godric gryffindor line of thinking. That Muggle borns had just as much right to the wizarding world as the rest. The Blacks seemed to hold to the Salazaar line of thinking.

That is not to say however that they are from a not as good or as rich a family as the Blacks. Just different philosophys.

NYCNomad - Apr 29, 2004 6:18 am (#388 of 1326)
Verbina, that's a very good thought. I have not thought of that as of yet. The line being pureblood based, but not strict on that philosophy. So it would open the muggle lineage and family names to the WW. Thank you.

NYCNomad - Apr 29, 2004 9:13 am (#389 of 1326)
OK, I asked this in the Parting of ways for PPMW thread, but they said it was getting off topic, so I'll ask it here. Why did LV kill the "Pureblood" James, but offer to spare the "mudblood" Lily? That makes no sense at all!

Padfoot - Apr 29, 2004 9:18 am (#390 of 1326)
You are right NYCNomad, it doesn't make sense. Unless the theories about Voldy either being related to Lilly or upholding his promise to someone else to spare her are true. I'm not really happy with either of those theories myself. Not sure why he told her to move. There must be a good reason.

Denise P. - Apr 29, 2004 9:31 am (#391 of 1326)
I think the Dork Lard never had any intention of sparing her. He was trying to lull her into a sense of false security. I think he would have killed Lily either way.

FCBarca - Apr 29, 2004 9:32 am (#392 of 1326)
Another reason why Voldemort offered to spare Lily may be nothing to do with a 'twist in the plot' at all. Maybe JKR was just showing that Lily was willing to sacrifice herself, even when given an alternative. I know any parent would sacrifice themselves for their children, so it wasn't an alternative, but if JKR didn't make Voldemort say that, then it could be said that Lily only chose to protect Harry because Voldemort may have killed her afterwards.

In other words, it wouldn't be classed as 'sacrifice', which would have meant the 'charm' wouldn't have worked, and Harry would have been killed.

I'm not saying that is the reason. I hope it isn't. Just giving another possible solution to it.

Catherine - Apr 29, 2004 9:45 am (#393 of 1326)
Denise seems to read that line the way I always have--that Voldemort cannot be trusted, and that he is a liar.

Also, I think he might have found it enjoyable to toy with Lily, to tell her to step aside, to see her anguish and fear for her son. It was a way to prolong the moment when Voldemort was feeling triumpant and powerful. Think back to the graveyard scene and recall how Voldemort played with Wormtail when Wormtail was bleeding and in pain. Voldemort didn't replace Wormtail's hand until he could make a spectacle of it in front of the watching Death Eaters.

Madame Librarian - Apr 29, 2004 9:53 am (#394 of 1326)
Voldie was showing us just how evil and cruel he is. Let's imagine that Lily does step aside. Voldie kills Harry, then turns to Lily and shows her that she is just a morally vacant and evil as he is, convincing her to join the DEs. Gawd, such an awful scenario, but this is how he works, possibly using this or similar methods to force others to join his side. It doesn't work, though, with Lily.

Ciao. Barb

Verbina - Apr 29, 2004 10:01 am (#395 of 1326)
Voldie feeds off the fear of others. It gives him a senes of power. So I could see it as he tells Lily to move, knowing there is always teh chance that she wouldn't. He doesn't have high opinions of muggles so may think she might move to save her own skin. He really doesn't comprehend motherly love as he had never really experienced it. Plus if she had moved, he would have gained a sense of power from her fear and horro of the death of Harry. Then he would have killed her because she was not really worht anything to him. On the other hand, he killed James because he saw James as a pureblood traitor, if James was a pureblood.

Accio Sirius - Apr 29, 2004 10:58 am (#396 of 1326)
I think as a Slytherin, Voldermort may have expected Lily to save her own skin. He's used to being around that. But I think Denise is correct in that he probably had no intention of sparing her and didn't expect her sacrifice to mean anything--which reinforces the notion that Voldie totally underestimates certain loving actions. He's getting a clue however, as he knew perfectly well how to play Harry and his attachment to Sirius.

Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Apr 29, 2004 11:00 am (#397 of 1326)
But why does Voldemort tell Harry his mother needn't have died? I can't remember which book it was in. I know someone else will though. Why would he bother bringing that up with Harry? I think it is a clue that we're meant to ponder. Could be a red herring I suppose, but it doesn't feel like it to me.

NYCNomad - Apr 29, 2004 11:17 am (#398 of 1326)
It gives me the impression, and I know I'm opening up myself to ridicule, but is there some family relation between Lily and Tom Riddle? LV offering to spare his half sister perhaps?

Catherine - Apr 29, 2004 11:28 am (#399 of 1326)
Do we really think that Voldemort means that he would have spared Lily? He is just "twisting the knife" to torment Harry about Lily dying. I've never seen Voldemort exercise forgiveness or mercy. I don't think he can be believed at all.

Peregrine - Apr 29, 2004 12:26 pm (#400 of 1326)
Catherine, that's the way I see it too. I think Voldemort just said that to make Harry blame himself for Lily dying. Just like he said Hagrid had werewolf cubs under his bed--lying just because he could. I think the only thing we can trust about that night is what Harry heard in his head (and even that's open to debate).

Mona on Wed May 11, 2011 11:40 pm

Denise P. - Apr 29, 2004 1:30 pm (#401 of 1326)
But why does Voldemort tell Harry his mother needn't have died?

It is all a power play. What makes you think he actually meant it?

NYCNomad - Apr 29, 2004 1:34 pm (#402 of 1326)
Why would he even say those things like, "stand aside you silly girl", and the like when he has shown he likes to kill. He did it with Cedric Diggory, with the gardner from the Riddle house, and many other times. He doesn't taunt all that much, he just likes the act of taking a life. There must be something there. It seems that he would not bother wasting time with words, just kill her and get her out of the way.

Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Apr 29, 2004 2:11 pm (#403 of 1326)
Denise, to respond to your question, I think he meant it because of what NYCNomad said above. I think if it was meant to have an effect on Harry that would have been illustrated. Harry didn't rise to the bait, so in essence that line was just slipped in. And I think under normal circumstances, JKR slips in seemingly innocuous information that later turns out to be pivotal to the story.

haymoni - Apr 29, 2004 3:06 pm (#404 of 1326)
I suppose that if Lily had merely stepped aside and let Voldemort kill her only son that, yes, Voldemort may have spared her life.

In my mind, James & Lily defied Voldemort a fourth time, dying to save their son.

The giant squid - Apr 30, 2004 4:43 am (#405 of 1326)
I recently reread all five books in a marathon session, so the order of some things blur a bit. When did Harry have the dreams/visions of Voldy vs. Lily? Was it in OotP & occlumency lessons, or prior to that?

The reason I ask is if it was during the time LV was invading Harry's thoughts, he could have planted this as a false memory. Or perhaps Harry was tuning in to LV's head and seeing the attack with Voldy's slightly skewed perspective.

--Mike

Catherine - Apr 30, 2004 5:53 am (#406 of 1326)
Harry heard Voldemort and Lily during a dementor session in PoA.

NYCNomad - Apr 30, 2004 6:23 am (#407 of 1326)
Also, I recently reread OotP, and on page 784, in the American Trade Cloth edition, about half way down the page Bellatrix Lestrange starts yelling that Harry is a half-blood. I thought that half blood was a term reserved for muggle/wizard(witch) by-products. Just adding fuel to the fire.

But I doubt that LV would have let Lily live if she stood aside, unless he had additionial motives for being there that evening.

Ladybug220 - Apr 30, 2004 7:54 am (#408 of 1326)
NYCNomad,

Harry is a half blood since his mother was muggleborn.

Verbina - Apr 30, 2004 8:52 am (#409 of 1326)
Yeah even though Lily was a witch, Hary would be a half blood. Lily on the other hand would have been a "Mudblood" (I hate that name!!)

I see the scenario when Lily and James were killed in this fashion.

Voldie arrives at Godric Hollow and James, knowing he is there, goes out to protect Lily and Harry by holding Voldie off. Voldie exchanges a few words with James and the wands come out. James was a fairly good hand at curses and such so Voldie knows there is a risk in fighting James. (He has Pettigrew after all.) He kills James in what he would consider "self defense" He then goes into the house and find Lily attemtping to hide and protect Harry. She is unarmed and Voldie knows she was not as good with curses as James (just a supposition) He is already annoyed and perhaps injured from fighting James. He wants to get rid of Harry and fast. He is obsessed with it. He knows Harry is in the room. So he tells Lily to get out his way, impatient to get it done. Lily refuses and so, now that she is an obstacle to his "mission" he kills her. Then he turns his attention to Harry. It's not that he didn't want to kill Lily. Just that at that time, she posed no threat or wasn't an obstacle in his way. Until she refused to move. Then she was an obstacle. to be gotten out of the way. He very likely would have killed her anyway.

NYCNomad - Apr 30, 2004 11:24 am (#410 of 1326)
But if she could kill her with just two words why try to persuade her to live with five? That, and the only person You-know-who was afraid of was Dumbledore. James and Lily might have been good, but thay could not have been even in the same quidditch pitch as Dumbledore.

Peregrine - Apr 30, 2004 12:28 pm (#411 of 1326)
I think I see what you mean, Verbina...that Voldemort was so focused on getting Harry, he wasn't really bargaining with Lily he just didn't want to waste time dealing with her and for a moment assumed the easiest way to get her out of the way was to order it. Sort of like when you're driving and someone's going too slow in front of you...you'll verbally order them out of the way or tell them to hurry up before you realize you can just pass them (at least, that's how I drive).

rambkowalczyk - Apr 30, 2004 1:47 pm (#412 of 1326)
I always assumed it was James who defied Voldemort 3 times not Lily. Therefore Voldemort wanted to kill James for revenge. He had no such desire for revenge against Lily since she never met him before. Voldemort had to kill Cedric. He couldn't just let him go. His presence at the rebirth could have caused problems- 2 wizards against Pettigrew may not have been the odds he wanted. He had him killed right away so he and Harry could not plan to fight back.

Verbina - Apr 30, 2004 5:55 pm (#413 of 1326)
No one ever said that Voldie thought things through logically. For instance in GoF, he could have used the blood of any enemy. He has many to choose from. But he had to have Harry's. It seems that with Harry, Voldie has a bizarre obsession that makes his usual clear thinking disappear. True with the blood of Harry he got the added benefit of the blood protection, thus being able to touch Harry. But he also ran the risk of things happening just the way it did.

And you know something, Peregrine, I drive a bit like that myself. First instinct is to tell whomever to get out of the way. Especially if it something that you are so...desperate (not sure that is the right word for it) to do. He has been looking for Harry for goodness knows how long by that time. He had to get past the mental blocks of a secret keeper to find out where they were. He was probably just so focused, he thought of nothing else.

S.E. Jones - Apr 30, 2004 11:41 pm (#414 of 1326)
I don't think choosing Harry was illogical. Voldemort said that in order for him to come back worse than he was before he had to use Harry's. The spell called for the blood of an enemy, who would be more his enemy than the boy who banished him? I'd say the stronger the enemy, the stronger the spell....

FCBarca - May 1, 2004 10:49 am (#415 of 1326)
"He (Voldemort) is already annoyed and perhaps injured from fighting James." Verbina

You think so? Believe me, Voldemort came out of that fight without a scratch on him. The rest of the post was probably correct.

I disagree with everyone who thinks Voldemort is illogical. He's sometimes impatient, but I believe his logic is better than everyone's, except Dumbledore's.

James was bright and powerful (I would think), but 'bright' and 'powerful' won't get you anywhere near Voldemort's level. You need to be 'very bright', and 'very powerful'; even with that you're pushing you luck. .

Verbina - May 1, 2004 3:58 pm (#416 of 1326)
Perhaps illogical is not the word I am trying to use. Voldiemort seems to take his need for revenge further than most would. And it has likely payed off very well in the past. But if we consider the times when Harry had to face Voldie...he keeps underestimating Harry. Yes he could have any of his enemies blood but he insisted it had to be the blood of Harry so that he could gain protection...plus have the opporunity of torturing/killing Harry.

And I am just about to venture into talking about Voldie too much for this thread I am afraid.

mononoke - May 2, 2004 2:21 am (#417 of 1326)
Just adding the reason why Voldemort was so focused in killing Harry, don't forget the prophecy.He NEED to get rid of 'The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approached...'.

...but really,I still wonder is there something behind "Stand aside,you silly girl".

NYCNomad - May 4, 2004 6:25 am (#418 of 1326)
I feel that LV must have been logical. While a great many witches and wizards don't have any logic, LV did very well with all his classes, including potions and the much more logical based classes. I don't have the slightest clue as to what it might be, but I strongly believe that there is something there that is not known yet.

Verbina - May 4, 2004 7:06 am (#419 of 1326)
Lv is logical. Yet...I keep getting the feeling that concerning Harry and even James and Lily, he became so frustrated that he did not think it through.

For instance...in CoS, Voldemort/Tom Riddle seems to be totally unaware of the possibilty of Harry yet defeating him in the CoS. He is fairly gloating over Harry. Yet Harry gets through again. Tom, being logical in all things, should have covered for the possibilty that Harry would be able to destroy the diary and take steps to prevent it. But he didn't. And to be honest, he keeps repeating these mistakes of underestimating Harry and such. Not so much that he is not logical but...in the case of Harry, his hatred has grown so much over the years that he allows his emotions of revenge to allow openings.

And how does this pertain to the Potters? They defied him three times. How we don't know yet. But it could be that Voldie attempted to get James and Lily on his side a few times. When they refused, he decided that they wer an obstacle. Then hearing about the prophecy, he set out to kill them but they successfully avoided him for a while. (They may have been in hiding before the prophecy) His sense of outrage, revenge and pure hatred could have "blurred" his judgements for a moment. Long enough for something to go terribly wrong.

Hagsquid - May 4, 2004 10:38 am (#420 of 1326)
I wonder if there's something about Harry that makes LV underestimate him. Lily died to give him protection, but the prophecy said that he had "a power that the Dark Lord did not know about." Perhaps it was the power to confuse him.

Hmmm... mods can feel free to move that to the Harry thread. I only put it in here because it was where the convo was headed. Smile

Chris. - May 9, 2004 8:53 am (#421 of 1326)
Voldemort set out to kill Harry when he was a baby, believing he was fulfilling the terms of the prophecy. He discovered, to his cost, that he was mistaken because he did not know the full contents of the Prophecy, only the first part detailing when 'The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord' would be born and not the bit where it says '...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have the power the Dark Lord knows not...'

Fawkes Egg - May 12, 2004 5:49 pm (#422 of 1326)
It's always bugged me that LV never went after Neville. Didn't he even consider it? Neville's parents were Aurors and had also defied him 3 times. We could assume, rightly, or wrongly, that the Longbottoms' "defiance" occurred in the course of their duties as Aurors, but we have no idea how the Potters might have defied LV, except as part of the Order. What made LV decide between the Longbottoms and the Potters?

Or possibly he planned to go after Harry and Neville, just to be sure. He'd only heard the first half of the prophecy after all. Then, for whatever reason, and that could be something as mundane as logistics, he ends up going to the Potters' place first, loses his power, and never has a chance to attack Neville.

Mind you, if he'd gone to the Longbottoms' first, we'd be reading the Neville Longbottom series. Alice could have done a Lily.

DJ Evans - May 12, 2004 6:15 pm (#423 of 1326)
Fawkes, I've always felt that LV meant to go after both boys and just got done in "before" he reached the Longbottom's. That he was planning on taking out both Neville and Harry who could fit in with what he knew of the Prophecy, but by taking out James and Lily first, along with Harry--except he got a big surprise.

Later days, Deb

S.E. Jones - May 12, 2004 7:09 pm (#424 of 1326)
This is not my post, it was originally posted by another member and is being moved to this thread...

Istari Jones [/b]- May 10, 2004 8:08 pm

What did Voldemort want with James and Lily?

Please forgive me if this has already been discussed and redirect me to the right place. I looked through the search thread and couldn't locate the answer to this question: What did Voldemort really want with James and Lily? I find info but it deals with the prophecy, or that they refused him three times, but there was no real answer to the question:

What was so special about the both of them that Voldemort tried three times to recruit them to his side? James was decidedly against the Dark Arts, and I think Voldemort's spies (especially Peter) would be aware of this fact. Was there some other reason?

hopping hessian - May 12, 2004 7:23 pm (#425 of 1326)
What was so special about the both of them that Voldemort tried three times to recruit them to his side? James was decidedly against the Dark Arts, and I think Voldemort's spies (especially Peter) would be aware of this fact. Was there some other reason?

I think that you might be the victim of a bad translation. Lily and James defied Voldemort three times, meaning they messed up his plans somehow. I doubt he would have tried to get them to "come over to the dark side" (my apologies to Darth Vader) because they were too close to Dumbledore.

Istari Jones - May 12, 2004 9:48 pm (#426 of 1326)
Sorry, I was working from memory and typed "recruited" erroneously. Yet I still interpreted it differently. My Websters dictionary says de-fy: 1. Challenge, dare; 2. to refuse boldly to obey or to yield to; 3. withstand, baffle. So, not to argue, but it could mean Voldemort was trying to persuade them to join him and they turned him down.

If it is the case, purely for discussion, that this was Voldemort's aim, it makes me then question Why? Why were the Potters, and the Longbottoms for that matter, so important to Voldemort?

Was it there heritage? Their power? Their position in the Wizarding community? We really have no clue what James or his family did for a living, and part of me thinks that James's family and Sirius's family are somehow connected (going back to Sirius's family tree where he was talking about purebloods and lineage). It's just a thought that's been rolling around in my head.

Ozymandias - May 12, 2004 10:43 pm (#427 of 1326)
Surely Sirius would have pointed out James's name on the Black family tapestry if it was there. (Or at least he would have pointed out the scorch mark where it was before he married a muggle-born.)

S.E. Jones - May 12, 2004 11:01 pm (#428 of 1326)
I don't think James's name would've been on the Black family tree, necessarily. It's the Black family tree, thus only those in the direct Black family line, or directly connected to it will be on there but subsequent generations may not be. For instance, Narcissa Black is there by birthright (her father was a Black), her husband Lucius Malfoy is listed because he married her but his family (i.e. siblings, parents, etc) aren't listed there, they'd be listed on the Malfoy family tree somewhere. Draco is listed because his mother was a Black but his children wouldn't be listed because they'd be Malfoy's and so would be listed on the Malfoy family tree. See what I mean? So, James may have had a relative on the tree without his name being there....

Ozymandias - May 12, 2004 11:15 pm (#429 of 1326)
True, but I can't imagine Sirius telling Harry about his family and not pointing out "Oh, by the way, Marvin Black right here is your great-great grandfather on your dad's side."

S.E. Jones - May 13, 2004 12:05 am (#430 of 1326)
Considering his contempt for the Blacks (and the fact that James's feelings toward that family were probably of equal contempt), I can see why he wouldn't mention it. Plus, Sirius didn't seem to think it was a big deal that he was related to certain families that Harry found horrid and only added that he was related to the Weasleys to show that all the purebloods are interrelated to varying degrees. Maybe, being a pureblood, it simply didn't occur to him to mention it. I mean, what do you think the odds are that Ron knows he's somehow, someway related to the Malfoys? He probably knows their family trees cross somewhere but just doesn't think about it because it's a given, just part of being a pureblood in the wizarding world....

mike miller - May 13, 2004 4:12 am (#431 of 1326)
Istari - I think Voldemort was purely motivated by what he knew of the prophecy, incomplete as it was. Both the Potter's and the Longbottom's were opposing Voldemort during his first reign of terror. It is easily conceivable that they each played a part in somehow disrupting his plans. Voldemort only knew 2 parts of the prophecy, the child would be born as the seventh month ends and the parents would have defied him 3 times. Those 2 points shortened the possible list to the Potter's and the Longbottom's. I think it was simply logistics that lead Voldemort to Harry before Neville.

hopping hessian - May 13, 2004 5:26 am (#432 of 1326)
I agree. I don't think Voldemort had any interest in either couple other than the fact that they were fighting against him. Why would he?

de-fy: 1. Challenge, dare; 2. to refuse boldly to obey or to yield to; 3. withstand, baffle

I believe that the third meaning is the most applicable in this situation. Both couples were very much involved in the Order, since they were working against Voldemort, it's only natural that they would of defied him.

Madame Librarian - May 13, 2004 7:24 am (#433 of 1326)
Uh oh, it's definition no. 2 that worries me. "Refuse to obey" could imply that at one time there was some connection between the Potters or the Potter family and the Riddles or Tom Riddle or...(gasp!) Voldie himself. Not a comfortable thought. It could also tie into that line Voldie delivers just before he kills Lily: "Stand aside silly girl." There is something--just a tinge--of familiarity, or what I would call an avuncular tone there. Did Riddle know Lily well enough to be avuncular (treating her like an old uncle)? How could that be? I've speculated on other threads about a connection between Harry and Riddle ("half-forgotten friend"--see that thread). Naturally, this could involve Harry's parents as well. Oh dear.

Ciao. Barb

Verbina - May 13, 2004 8:51 am (#434 of 1326)
We already know that Voldie will, if given the opportunity, attempt to control a member of the Order through Imperious. So... could it be that at least one of those times, James and/or Lily was able to throw off the curse? Harry was enventually able to defy the Imperious in GoF so it could be that one or both of his parents were able to do this at one time. That would also further explain Crouch Jrs "testing" of Harry's abilities. To see if Harry got the ability from his parents or not.

And I am really not entirely sure about Voldy going after both the boys. The thing that bugs me about the entire thing is why he went after them at all. Normally, he has his underlings do the killings. I understand he may have felt the prophecy was important but...even then you would think that he would have someone there with him just in case. Especially since they had successfully evaded or defied him in the past. Just doesn't seem to make sense to me.

Prefect Marcus - May 13, 2004 8:58 am (#435 of 1326)
Verbina - "The thing that bugs me about the entire thing is why he went after them at all. Normally, he has his underlings do the killings."

Are you sure that "normally" he has others do the killings? Serial killers do it because of the rush it gives them. They are addicted to murder. Why would he cut himself off entirely from his "fix"?

There is also the matter of trust. Do you really think that Voldemort trusts his followers completely? Would you turn your back on any of these creeps?

Here was one of two boys that a prophesy says will have the power to defeat you. Would you trust a underling to eliminate him, or would you want to make sure it got done right?

Marcus

Istari Jones - May 13, 2004 9:04 am (#436 of 1326)
Thanks, for your input, Mike and Hoppy. But remember, Trelawney's prophecy occurred 16 years before Harry was aware of it. Close to the time he was born or just before his birth. It's possible, and I feel highly probable, that the Potters and the Longbottoms had defied Voldemort before the prophecy existed, but maybe not before they defied him all three times.

Thanks, too, Barb, for your input and the thread reference. I'll read it here in a bit. There's some kind of connection between the families we haven't been told of yet, and I think for a reason, as to tell us have families are related now would be detrimental to JKR's plot. There are clues, but many may not be recognizable until after the fact. There's something about several of the main characters having black hair, mind, black, which is more uncommon than dark brown or brown, as well as the wealth that the Potters and the Black's have. (There's other things that I won't go into here!)

I also believe that Molly and/or Arthur is related to Dumbledore. (1. reference to Molly's "magnificent clock" with many hands, and Dumbledore's own timepiece with multiple hands; 2. Ron middle name is Bilius, after their Uncle Bilius, and I think Percy was also named after Dumbledore (Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore). But I'm rambling. (I'd like to read any other threads that my talk about these things if any one can point me there.)

I think it's obvious by ommission Harry hasn't asked and no one has told him about his family tree. JKR is holding back on these things for a reason.it may become more clear in the next book.

Verbina - May 13, 2004 9:10 am (#437 of 1326)
From the recent (maybe it's not anymore ^_^) live chat,

Fenny: Will Lord Voldemort get more "screentime" in the upcoming books? JKR : You will see him again but like most evil dictators, he prefers his henchmen to do his dirty work.

That makes it seem that he prefers to "distance" himself from the deaths. So why was he willing to take part in this bit of dirty work, with no one else with him in case of problems? These people had avoided him for how long? Defied him for how long? The chance of them getting away was 50/50 at least. Such a huge mistake that if he would have had at least one of his DE's with him would have been easily avoided. I still suspect there was something a bit more concerning the boys in general and perhaps Harry and his parents specifically.

Verbina - May 13, 2004 9:17 am (#438 of 1326)
Oh and as for a possibly family connection between James and Sirius...if the connection was far enough back, and the "offending" family member's name blasted from the tapestry at that time...Sirius may not have known there was a family connection.

Prefect Marcus - May 13, 2004 9:35 am (#439 of 1326)
Yes, he normally does prefer to let his henchmen do the dirty work. There is far too much dirty work to be done than one lonely evil genius can accomplish by himself.

However, that doesn't keep him from wanting to experience the thrill of killing upon occasion. And in the case of the Potters and the Longbottoms, he has the additional incentive of making sure the job is done right.

Yes, it was dumb for him to do so; but we have the benefit of hindsight.

Padfoot - May 13, 2004 10:26 am (#440 of 1326)
Edited by May 13, 2004 10:27 am
I can easily see why Voldy killed the Potters himself and tried to kill Harry. Like Marcus said, who would trust those DEs with something so important. We don't know how many people he has killed, but quite a few. He might indeed get a kick out of more murderers.

In regards to the question of why Harry and not Neville, Tom related more to Harry because they are both half blood. So he thought Harry was more of a danger to him (because they had something in common).

mike miller - May 13, 2004 10:36 am (#441 of 1326)
I agree with you Istari regarding the lack of information on the Potter's and Longbottom's. I'm on the record on several threads (Shortest Stay yet, Returning to 12 GP and the Longbottoms) in my belief that we will find out more early in book 6. I see book 6 setting up the final showdown in book 7. Harry must come to grips with his past, his parents, his family and personal loss, as part of growing up. There is a critical piece of information held by Neville's parents that will help to explain some of the mysteries we speculate about on this Forum. JKR will have to start putting the pieces toegther soon so that the end does not seem contrived. The complexity of the entire story leads me to believe she has it clearly in her mind.

Ozymandias - May 13, 2004 5:03 pm (#442 of 1326)
Hagrid in SS: "...or maybe he just liked killin' by then." (When he is telling Harry about the events that made him famous.) Granted, it's not exactly the most reliable source, but it fits in with what Marcus was saying, and I definitely agree.

Dumbly-dorr - May 14, 2004 2:21 am (#443 of 1326)
About why Voldemort told Lily to stand aside. Rather than having some ulterior motive concerning Lily (relative, Imperious curse, etc), when I read that scene I had envisioned that Lily (wandless) was simply holding her baby Harry. If I were a mother trying to protect my child I would have been holding him. If Voldemort had cursed her he might have missed Harry (his prime objective), so he simply, in his haste, told her to get out of his way. She didn't so he AK'd her.

There are, of course, problems with the way this or any other scenario works out, (and a few posts back logic, or lack of logic was mentioned) but there are things that just don't strike me as logical throughout the books. Or maybe it's just that my imagination thinks magic could be used more logically throughout the books. For instance, Lily could have transfigured Harry into an object and then disaparated making Voldemort think they were no longer there. And Lupin, who was noted to have shabby clothes could have simply conjured up some new ones, or Sirius, in GoF who asked Harry to bring food could simply have magiced some out of thin air (as McGonogall did in CoS when she fed Harry and Ron after the flying car crash). Or the Weasleys conjuring up whatever they need, or Ron repairing his second-hand dress robes, or even just having the elves taylor them to whatever he wanted.

I mean, honestly, if I weren't such a muggle, and could do magic, I'd be like Fred and George and be doing magic for EVERYTHING. Forget cooking, or working, or dishes. No way. I've got to find a way to make this stuff real, it's just too good to be fiction.

Prefect Marcus - May 14, 2004 9:26 am (#444 of 1326)
Dumbly-dorr,

"Now don't be getting any silly ideas about magic being able to solve all your problems because it won't!" (Merlin, "Sword in the Stone")

Rowling's magic has limits. Some of the rules are:

Things magic'd up do not last.
You cannot bring back the dead.

I am thinking that conjured up food is likely just being teleported from one place to another. Just like the food in the Great Hall comes from the kitchens directly below. There is likely some larder somewhere in Hogwarts that the teachers can tap into.

What happens when you transfigure a living thing into a dead thing? Does the living thing continue living?

Anyway, this is getting off topic, fascinating though it is.

S.E. Jones - May 14, 2004 12:19 pm (#445 of 1326)
For instance, Lily could have transfigured Harry into an object and then disaparated making Voldemort think they were no longer there. And Lupin, who was noted to have shabby clothes could have simply conjured up some new ones....

Yes, I have to agree with Marcus, conjured clothing would be great and all, but think of the draft you'd get when the spell wore off!

Back to James and Lily, though, a bit off from what we've been discussing but it's been bothering me lately, do you think Arthur and Molly knew them? Molly talks in OotP like she knew James or something but I can't tell if she did or if she just thinks she does because she thinks she knows Sirius.... I think that made sense....

haymoni - May 14, 2004 12:28 pm (#446 of 1326)
She says Harry is not James to Sirius but that is the only reference that I can recall.

I think of Mollie & Arthur as older than Lily & James. I also don't think they were in the Order the first time around.

Peregrine - May 14, 2004 12:29 pm (#447 of 1326)
I don't think Molly knew them, she just knew of them. At least that's the impression I've gotten, otherwise it seems like she'd tell Harry something about his family (she knows the Durselys are rotten, so she should know they don't tell him anything about James and Lily). Arthur, on the other hand, I would think did know them. When Lupin says something to Molly about her not being in the Order the first time, to me that sounded like she wasn't but perhaps Arthur was (?) in which case he would have known James and Lily. But Harry doesn't spend very much time with Arthur, so Arthur doesn't tell him anything about his parents either. I don't know. I guess it depends on if Arthur was in the Order.

Chris. - May 14, 2004 4:18 pm (#448 of 1326)
If James and/or Lily worked in the Ministry, Arthur probably would have known them.

Peregrine - May 14, 2004 8:27 pm (#449 of 1326)
Yeah, maybe he would have known them to say "hi" or to nod at as they passed, but not really known them. Er, if that makes sense.

I Am Used Vlad - May 14, 2004 8:52 pm (#450 of 1326)
S.E. Jones, I don't think the Weasleys knew Lily and James. You're right that in OotP Molly talks like she is familiar with the Potters and Sirius and the relationship they had, but I think it is something she has learned about recently.

If you go back to the scene in POA when Harry overhears the Weasleys talking about Black in the Leaky Cauldron, one doesn't get the impression that they knew him(at least I don't). And if they didn't know Sirius, they probably didn't know the Potters.

Mona on Wed May 11, 2011 11:47 pm

Dumbly-dorr - May 14, 2004 10:16 pm (#451 of 1326)
Sorry everyone! I got off on a wild goose chase. I know you can't magic everything,but it would be so tempting...at the very least it would become second nature. But yes, (I need to go iron my hands) I remember Molly's reprimand to Fred and George that they needed to be responsible in not using magic for every little thing. Enough said. Sorry again.

Quickly, to answer Prefect Marcus with a thought about when you transfigure a living thing into a dead, or inanimate, object, I just remember when Ron transfigured Scabbers into a goblet that still had a tail and yet good ole Scabbers was still around for a long time. So the transfiguration must be reversable. Just a thought.

Back to James a Lily, it was mentioned in the forum a while back about the possibility of the Weasley's having gone into hiding during Voldie War I. That may have given Arthur good reason (defending his family) to be in the Order, but not Molly as she still had young children at home. Arthur would have been strategically placed since he was in the Ministry. Arthur, like James, doesn't seem the kind to cower in a corner. If he was in the Order he may have known James and/or Lily. We know that James and Lily were in hiding. It would have been more difficult for them to be so bold in their defiance with a young baby to care for and protect. Maybe Arthur had this same idea with his family. Maybe there were a lot of wizarding families in hiding at that time. We just don't know at this point.

S.E. Jones - May 14, 2004 11:54 pm (#452 of 1326)
Thanks nimrod 2000. I hadn't even thought about that scene in PoA but it does make them seem far less familiar. Hm, it also throws Molly in a far less appealling light, to my eye at least, that she thought she knew them so well (and I got the impression that she at least thought she did from OotP) from just hearing Sirius reminisce....

Rich - May 15, 2004 10:52 pm (#453 of 1326)
Molly telling Harry she knew James and Lily is a lot nicer than saying, "Nah, sorry love. I'd never heard of your parents before they were dead."

But if it's the right thing to do is another matter.

Tomoé - May 16, 2004 12:37 am (#454 of 1326)
Ron transfigured Scabbers into a goblet ... I don't remember that from the books, only from movies ... do I get it wrong again?

azi - May 16, 2004 9:35 am (#455 of 1326)
It ain't in the books. Smile

Fawkes Egg - May 16, 2004 2:12 pm (#456 of 1326)
I think Molly probably knew of the Potters before they died. The WW is a small world after all, and those working against LV, be the Order members of Ministry employees, probably knew about each other.

Peregrine - May 16, 2004 9:27 pm (#457 of 1326)
I'd agree, Fawkes Egg. In the beginning of SS, when Vernon is over-hearing random people talk about the Potters they sound as if they know of them:

'The Potters, that's right, that's what I heard--'

'--yes, their son, Harry--" SS/PS pg 4 US

They probably would have been more upset (and less celebratory) had they really known James and Lily. In other words, the Potters seemed to be well known in the community.

Steve Newton - May 17, 2004 7:19 am (#458 of 1326)
I had some thoughts after waking up at 2 this morning. Always a dangerous situation.

I considered all of the references to the phoenix, and to the bell jar at the Department of Ministries (where the hummingbird was repeatedly reborn). I then thought of all of the times that Harry is referred to as looking much like his father. Also his great quidditch playing.

I got to wondering. What if Harry didn't survive Lord Voldemort's attack but James did. Perhaps he was reborn in the ashes at Godric's Hollow and he was the baby that was found. So the person that we have been calling Harry is really James.

I know that this would make necessary some fancy reading of the Prophecy.

This sounded much better at 2 this morning. If its really stupid or already been discussed, just let me know.

Mare - May 17, 2004 7:38 am (#459 of 1326)
Well it definitaly hasn't been discussed before, LOL!
It's an interesting theory on itself, but the reason I don't see it work is this:
I don't think even a wizard could rebirth (sp?) in such a way, even with magic.
If this is James, than where did the baby go?
What about the prophecy? parents trice defied him? James parents??
And I think it would cause a revolt in the end, because all the millions of people who grew to love Harry feel cheated!

So personally I don't think it would work, but the idea is original!

Steve Newton - May 17, 2004 12:04 pm (#460 of 1326)
Mare,

Sorry, I don't know how to do the accent. The prophecy is certainly the stumbling block. How about the young Harry being killed and being reborn, phoenix-like? What did happen to James' and Lily's bodies, anyway? Probably not relevant.

Dr Filibuster - May 17, 2004 2:04 pm (#461 of 1326)
And what about Harry having Lily's eyes?

Ozymandias - May 17, 2004 7:23 pm (#462 of 1326)
If he was reborn though, what would cause him to suddenly be one year old and then age normally for the rest of his life?

Aussie Weasley - May 18, 2004 4:02 am (#463 of 1326)
JKR says Molly was related to the Prewetts who were in the original OOP. Prewett is Molly's maiden name. It says on JKR's official website that Molly "has lost close relatives" to Voldemort. So that is a resonably close link so one would think she knew of the Potters if this is the case.

Chemyst - May 18, 2004 5:40 am (#464 of 1326)
And what about Harry having Lily's eyes? Dr. Filibuster Umm... the reborn James would be blind?

And Steve, there are codes to do accent marks; go to the "How do you...?" thread if you really want to learn. But the way this forum is set up, it is often faster to simply copy & paste. Look smart. Know nothing.

Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 1, 2004 3:06 am (#465 of 1326)
Hi All

Some of these things about the bodies of Harry's parents have been discussed on the Death In The Wizarding World Site. Especially the fact that Harry's patronus is his father in stag form.

But when did Petunia hear about Dementors anyway? Does this have anything to do with her hatred of the wizarding world and Harry's parents?

Padfoot - Jun 2, 2004 12:46 pm (#466 of 1326)
Petunia says she learned about Dementors overhearing a conversation between Lilly and James. At least I think so. I don't have OotP with me to give you the exact quote.

Robert Dierken - Jun 2, 2004 3:23 pm (#467 of 1326)
"I heard --- that awful boy --- telling her about them --- years ago," she said jerkily. Chapter Two of OoP.

But it doesn't say that the awful boy was James!

Catherine - Jun 2, 2004 4:48 pm (#468 of 1326)
I know, and I HAVE wondered about that, believe me!

The modern, adult mind wonders (and wanders, too) did Petunia mean James, or Sirius, or Lupin, or Pettigrew, or someone else entirely!??

Naturally, I believe that JKR wants us to connect "that awful boy" with James. But any wizarding boy would have been awful to Petunia. And maybe, one boy WAS more awful than Harry's dad. Doubtful, but there you go.

Maybe I need this so-called vacation that's coming up.

Cheers!

Cath.

Dumbledore - Jun 2, 2004 5:08 pm (#469 of 1326)
And just like that "awful boy" could be anybody, so could the "her" in that quote.

Liz - Jun 2, 2004 5:47 pm (#470 of 1326)
True but as we weren't in jkr's head writing Harry to say " If you mean my parents why don't you use there names." So if Harry was under that impression then I am two.

I'm not saying that it couldn't have been more detailed.

Beth

S.E. Jones - Jun 2, 2004 6:27 pm (#471 of 1326)
I think the key part of that statement isn't "aweful" but "that". She's refering to one particular aweful boy and personally, I think it'd be James. He was the one who she was more likely to have contact with and she's referred to him as "that Potter" which shows she has a very particular distaste for him anyway. He's also the one who took her sister away from her and put her into the world which got her blown up (i.e. the wizarding world), to some extent. I'm betting it's James.

Verbina - Jun 2, 2004 8:49 pm (#472 of 1326)
I would say it would have to be James but...I am rather curious under what circumstcanes she was able to overhear such a conversation. Was James visiting Lily's family? Or was it a time when the family went to visit Lily? Either would be itneresting but...the last one...can you imagine Petunia trying to navigate the stairs? Or meeting Sir Cadogan?

Dumbledore - Jun 3, 2004 1:29 pm (#473 of 1326)
That's a good question...I hope we find out about the circumstances in which Petunia heard this information (and other information about the wizarding world?) in the coming books.

Padfoot - Jun 3, 2004 2:00 pm (#474 of 1326)
Thanks Rob for that quote. Ok, so I assumed Aunt Pet meant James Potter. I could be wrong, but I will still keep assuming away until proven wrong.

Mare - Jun 3, 2004 2:32 pm (#475 of 1326)
Well ít also could be Sirius, remember she might have seen him, met him, heard about him.
She knows this "criminal" is on the loose, and that Harry is in contact with him. As a possible disturbance of her peace, he might have been on her mind more then we can imagine. Esspecialy when she might have met him one day.
Can you see the horror scenario's Pet could see in her mind: Sirius, in wizard clothing with a prison stripe and a bewildered look walking up to her house to meet Harry. Neighbours watching, Vernon watching and he says something like "Petunia, old goat! Long time no see!" (Okay Sirius wouldn't say that, but you get the idea) The horror when Vernon finds out she actually knew a wizard, and a criminal wizard at that...

Chris. - Jun 4, 2004 5:13 am (#476 of 1326)
What if it was Snape?

He certainly is horrible in a way and I think the way he dresses would make Petunia think he was "mad".

sewfuninme - Jun 8, 2004 6:19 am (#477 of 1326)
The quote regarding "that awful boy" has always puzzled me, too. At first glance it appears that she is talking about James. but when I look a little closer I get the feeling that she may not be referring to James. We now know that Sirius could be quite cruel (along with, or especially with, James), so I do wonder if Petunia could have been referring to Sirius. Sirius would have been the type to make disparaging remarks to Petunia. James might have held back a little bit in order to make a good impression on Lily's family. Although Petunia still didn't like James either. My conclusion is that her statement is not clearly referring to James as "that awful boy".

An argument that she was not referring to Sirius is that Vernon and Petunia did not seem to recognize the name Sirius Black when it was on the muggle news. It seems as if they would have had more of a reaction to that news if they had met Sirius. Wouldn't they have met him at James and Lily's wedding? Or did they not attend the wedding?

Catherine - Jun 8, 2004 6:32 am (#478 of 1326)
The picture of "escapee" Sirius in no way resembled the laughing, handsome man who was best man at the Potter's wedding. Also, she may not have really known Sirius's name, or bothered to learn it, because he was one of "them." After all, you see Harry referred to as "boy" a lot in the Dursley home, which contrasts with all of the sticky-sweet nicknames that Dudley gets.

Petunia could have been really prejudiced against anyone from the wizarding (i.e. Lily's world), but even so, it would be a stretch to call James or Sirius "awful." At Hogwarts, they were considered "the height of cool" and extremely popular. From an appearance standpoint, Snape or Peter fits the description much more accurately. Sirius's own mother calls him a blood traitor, and we know that he had friends who weren't pure-bloods, so it doesn't follow that Sirius was awful to Petunia because she was a muggle. I think that Sirius wouldn't have done anything to get James in trouble with Lily's family.

Perhaps this speculation belongs in the "Clues from the Movies thread," but after the movie PoA, we know that Lily and Lupin shared a friendship. Could Petunia have been referring to Lupin as "that awful boy?" Lupin tells Harry in the novel PoA that he is not an expert on dementors, but quite the reverse. Perhaps it was Lupin discussing dementors with Lily? Perhaps Petunia overheard more than she wanted, and found out that Lupin is a werewolf, and that is why she thinks he's "awful?"

sewfuninme - Jun 8, 2004 6:50 am (#479 of 1326)
It had occurred to me that Petunia could have been referring to Lupin as the awful boy because she has learned that he is a werewolf, just as Catherine Allen suggests. I'm not going to discount it as a possibility, because I do think it is possible. It is a plausible conclusion.

Sirius might have chosen Petunia as an object of ridicule, not because she was a muggle, but because of the way Petunia obviously disliked Lily. Lily was very much loved, and as an "enemy" of Lily, Petunia would have been a fun target for him. I get the impression that even among muggles, Petunia was not "cool", so therefore it would also follow his pattern of choosing the "uncool" as his victim of ridicule. Sirius wouldn't have seen how his actions towards Petunia would have been a negative reflection on James. It doesn't seem as if he had that type of insight.

These thoughts further support the idea that Petunia was not necessarily referring to James as "that awful boy".

Prefect Marcus - Jun 8, 2004 7:44 am (#480 of 1326)
Or it could be that Petunia knows far more about the WW than she is letting on, and she couldn't remember exactly where she picked up that bit of information. So she assumed it was when James was talking to Lily in her hearing.

Accio Sirius - Jun 9, 2004 11:31 am (#481 of 1326)
I assumed Petunia wasn't at the wedding and didn't know Sirius at all. It is my perception that James and Lily didn't spend a lot of time around her and if they did, Sirius wasn't with them so she never would have met him.

Chemyst - Jun 10, 2004 7:57 pm (#482 of 1326)
I agree. It is highly unlikely that Petunia attended the wedding. The bitterness of her venting at the Hut on the Rock clearly shows she was against that marriage, and I don't think she would have gone unless Imperioed. I have wondered if Mr. & Mrs. Evans became targets and met their demise as a result of James & Lily announcing their engagement. We don't have enough clues to know that for sure, but if Petunia felt Lily's witch-life was responsible for the death of her parents, it would explain much about how she treats Harry.

S.E. Jones - Jun 10, 2004 9:08 pm (#483 of 1326)
She could've also felt that James was somehow responsible for Lily choosing to stay in the wizarding world versus coming to her senses and returning to the sensible Muggle world. And that choise eventually got Lily killed. Just a thought I'm throwing out there....

Dumbledore - Jun 11, 2004 1:04 pm (#484 of 1326)
Sorry, this is kind of random. But do we know for sure that James is pure-blood?

haymoni - Jun 11, 2004 3:10 pm (#485 of 1326)
I believe JKR said it in a chat or an interview.

S.E. Jones - Jun 11, 2004 3:33 pm (#486 of 1326)
I don't believe she's ever actually come out and said it, actually. But, it does seem to be implied. Personally, I think James (along with Sirius and Draco and most other purebloods raised in rich pureblooded families) is the "little prince" that Dumbledore was referring to in OotP when he said to Harry, "You were not a pampered little prince, but as normal a boy as I could hope under the circumstances."

Robert Dierken - Jun 11, 2004 8:13 pm (#487 of 1326)
I remember a line about Harry being the last Potter. This would seem to indicate that the Potter's go back a long way.

S.E. Jones - Jun 12, 2004 10:03 pm (#488 of 1326)
Does anyone have any guesses to what color James's stag animagus form was? My immediate thought is black, like his hair, but I'm not so sure it wasn't something else....

Peregrine - Jun 12, 2004 11:09 pm (#489 of 1326)
I always pictured him being white...not because of the patronus, but because of the White Stag in mythology. (Doesn't it grant a wish or something if you catch it or was that only in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe?)

I'm not sure if hair color matters, but we don't have a whole lot to go on. Sirius and Padfoot are both black haired. Scabbers was grey as was adult Peter--we don't know what color Scabbers/Wormtail was back when Peter was a kid. McGonagall is black haired and her cat form is tabby. Dumbledore is white haired but the giant squid is...well, maybe we shouldn't count that one....

S.E. Jones - Jun 12, 2004 11:52 pm (#490 of 1326)
I was assuming white as well, actually. The white stag is traditionally seen as a guide, particularly for those who are lost or seeking somethink (i.e. on a quest).

vball man - Jun 13, 2004 2:21 pm (#491 of 1326)
I assumed tan-brown.

Verbina - Jun 13, 2004 10:04 pm (#492 of 1326)
Doesn't it grant a wish or something if you catch it or was that only in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe?

Actually, it is in the Arthurian legends as well. A white stage once ran through the banquet hall of Camelot, leading many of the knights on quests in their efforts to catch it.

I believe there was also one mentioned in Tolkien's The Hobbit though I don't know if that could be considered legend save for the fact that he based it on various bits of mythology.

S.E. Jones - Jun 13, 2004 10:43 pm (#493 of 1326)
As I said, white stags traditionally act as guides in some fashion....

Padfoot - Jun 14, 2004 3:45 pm (#494 of 1326)
For some reason I am thinking a green stag. Now where did that come from? Logically it should be white or silver.

Julia. - Jun 14, 2004 4:03 pm (#495 of 1326)
Green? Really? I was thinking brown, like a deer.

Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jun 14, 2004 4:32 pm (#496 of 1326)
Padfoot, green? Wow--they make some funny looking deer where you from, eh?

Prefect Marcus - Jun 14, 2004 5:59 pm (#497 of 1326)
Perhaps they were swimming in an algae filled pond?

S.E. Jones - Jun 14, 2004 6:00 pm (#498 of 1326)
EW!!!!

Natasha - Jun 14, 2004 9:55 pm (#499 of 1326)
I always thought he was brown, with white spots...

Tomoé - Jun 15, 2004 4:32 pm (#500 of 1326)
Padfoot, are you color blind? ^_~

The stag was a plain and boring brown in my head, like stags are.

Mona on Wed May 11, 2011 11:51 pm

Padfoot - Jun 16, 2004 3:46 pm (#501 of 1326)
I honestly don't know where green came from. In the book it's called a silver stag. And no, I am not color blind. Sometimes my imagination runs away from sanity.

Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jun 16, 2004 3:54 pm (#502 of 1326)
Poor Padfoot. With that kind of imagination, I wonder what color your hair would be if you were a Metamorphmagus?

S.E. Jones - Jun 16, 2004 4:56 pm (#503 of 1326)
Runs away from sanity?.... Screaming perhaps?..... I feel that way myself, quite often.....

You know, I just realized something today (okay, it was at 5 am this morning, but still), James had an invisibility cloak while he was Hogwarts age. He are told that they are very rare and very, very valuable. His parents were still alive at the time, so, unless he inherited it from a grandfather or uncle or something (quite possible), the only other way he could've gotten it is if his family bought it for him. Either way, that's quite an expensive gift to give a child, isn't it? I know Harry has recieved two very expensive gifts (the cloak and the firebolt) but both are with rather unusual circumstances attached. (He is the only one who could inherit the cloak and he hasn't ever gotten a real present before he came to Hogwarts, so I can see Dumbledore wanting to give him something memorable his first year. The firebolt was to make up for all the presents Sirius missed giving him while he was locked away in Azkaban for 12 years.) Anyway, it does give us some kind of idea just how wealthy James's family was that he could get an invisibility cloak so young. It's also no wonder that he was so cocky at 15, being that wealthy and pureblooded (we think) in a world that values just those two qualifiers. He's a smart kid, he'd figure out what his status was socially and what he could get away with.... Good thing he married someone who'd smack him when he got out of line, huh?....

Verbina - Jun 16, 2004 11:23 pm (#504 of 1326)
^_^ hehe

I could see it as being something he inherited from an uncle that was somewhat like the twins. Or even a grandfather that was that way. Sort of "I had so much fun with this when I was your age at school, you should have it." Sort of like a family tradition of trouble making.

Madame Librarian - Jun 17, 2004 8:23 am (#505 of 1326)
Sorry, can't check the books now, but are we sure James had the cloak while a teen? Also, is it possible that he...um, er..."liberated" it from some open drawer or other wizard's hiding place? I'm thinking a situation like F & G and the map. The true owner could not report as that cloak would get him or her in trouble, too. Anyway, just a possible thought as to another way James and the cloak hook up. I truly think that James comes from wealth, so my questions are not really relevant to this particular speculation, but may raise a whole other issue--i.e., where'd that durn cloak come from!

However, all of this will be put to rest if someone remembers a canon reference as to how James got the cloak.

Ciao. Barb

Tomoé - Jun 17, 2004 8:33 am (#506 of 1326)
Didn't Sirius (or maybe Remus) told Harry about going under under the cloack with James when they when they were at Hogwarts, I don't remember the where exactly I read that, but that's in PoA.

Chris. - Jun 17, 2004 8:35 am (#507 of 1326)
JKR answered the question in an interview.

AOL Chat, 19 October 2000

Where did James get his Invisibility Cloak?

JKR: That was inherited from his own father -- a family heirloom!

S.E. Jones - Jun 17, 2004 10:53 am (#508 of 1326)
Thanks Prongs! And yes, he did indeed have the cloak while at Hogwarts, Lupin mentions it in PoA. So, it seems that James's dad gave him the cloak when he went off to school. My!... It seems these Potter men come from a long line of mischief makers!....

Julia. - Jun 17, 2004 10:53 am (#509 of 1326)
Also, in PS/SS in the scene with Harry and Dumbledore in the hospital wing (the exact reference escapes me, no books handy at the moment) Dumbledore tells Harry that James mostly used the invisability cloak for sneaking food out of the kitchens when he was at Hogwarts.

Padfoot - Jun 17, 2004 11:15 am (#510 of 1326)
I remember that too Julia. I wonder if we will see more about Lily and James' parents in the next book? It would be nice for Harry to see Grampa Potter using the cloak and getting into mischief.

Poor Padfoot. With that kind of imagination, I wonder what color your hair would be if you were a Metamorphmagus? Why I would be changing it all the time Kim. I'd love to be a Metamorphmagus. That would be so much fun!

Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jun 17, 2004 11:49 am (#511 of 1326)
I know you like change Padfoot. Just when I get attached to one of your avatars you go and change it. Goodbye, Hairy Otter!

Padfoot - Jun 17, 2004 1:30 pm (#512 of 1326)
I may bring it back Kim, just time for a change.

Chris. - Jun 18, 2004 11:06 am (#513 of 1326)
Were Bill and/or Charlie contemporarys of James and Lily at Hogwarts?

I Am Used Vlad - Jun 18, 2004 11:11 am (#514 of 1326)
No. Didn't JKR say that they are something like 2 and 4 years older than Percy.

S.E. Jones - Jun 18, 2004 4:33 pm (#515 of 1326)
Yes she did. Bill would've been born about the time James and Lily entered Hogwarts, and Charlie just shortly after him.

World Day Chat, March 4, 2004:
Luisa: How old are Charlie and Bill Weasley in relation to their other siblings?
JK Rowling replies -> Oh dear, maths. Let me think. Bill is two years older than Charlie, who is two years older than Percy.

This would put Bill being born around 1971-1972, and it would seem that James and Lily entered Hogwarts around 1970-1971 (I'm guessing 1971) as Snape was said to be around 35 at the end of GoF (early 1995; 1995-35=1960+11=1971).

HP Sleuth - Jun 27, 2004 6:33 pm (#516 of 1326)
I would like to either blow everyone's mind with a new theory, or get them all talking about how crazy I am. Anyways, so my theory is...(drumroll)...LILY INVENTED THE A.K. CURSE!!! I actually have a bit of evidence, so bear with me here. I'm positive that JK Rowling says somewhere that it's important to the plot that Harry has inherited his mother's eyes, and that she had a wand suited for charm work. Well, her startingly green eyes, compared to when, in GoF, fake Moody does the AK on the spider, described by Harry as "A flash of blinding green light"(p. 216, GoF, American Version). Coincidence? I don't think so. Also, someone with a wand suited for charm work would be an experimentor, especially when paired up with someone that had a wand for Transfiguration. I'm not saying that Lily and James married to experiment together, I'm just saying that since they already were married, they might as well have.

But why am I so convinced that James and Lily Potter were experimentors? First off, JK Rowling says that what James' profession is is integral to the plot, and that it wasn't necessarily high paying, because he had a lot of inherited money. Now, I think that I know that experimenting with spells isn't exactly high paying, because Luna Lovegood says, (p. 568, OOP, American Version) "He [her dad, Mr. Lovegood] doesn't care about making money", and we also know that her mother was an experimentor. A bit of a coincidence, anyone? Alright, so my evidence is a bit patchy, but that's what you guys are for, right?

So how does this tie in with everything people have been discussing? Well, I think that "that awful boy" Petunia was talking about was, in fact, James, and "her", was, in fact Lily. So my view of things, is that James and Lily, fresh out of Hogwarts and dating, are looking for jobs. Now, Lily likes experimenting in her free time (or something like that, this part of the plot is a bit patchy), and one day accidentally kills a spider or something with the new curse she has found. Now, this day is a bit of a coincidence, because it is the day before family reunion day, which Lily's parentals have called, probably for Lily and Petunia to see each other before they permanently can go on hating each other in peace. Now, at this reunion, Lily decides to tell James, and Petunia, naturally, is eavesdropping. As the conversation drags on, James is at least apprehensive about this new curse, and tells Lily that she could possibly be sent to Azkaban for this. As if she doesn't need to be reminded, just to annoy her, he reminds her about dementors. (What happens after this with the curse is up to you guys!)

And then there's the scene in Godric's Hollow, Voldemort may have actually been scared that someone may have alerted Dumbly, so he was in a rush to accomplish his "mission". Well, James holds him up, so by the time he is finished with him, time is running short, so he tries to hurry it up with Lily. Well, he also doesn't exactly want to duel her, seeing as she's the creator of the AK curse, and although he boasts of all those anti-death spells that he has put on himself, he doesn't exactly want to test them, if you know what I mean. So, he regains his composure in a few moments, and realizes that Lily apparently doesn't have a wand on her, or can't use it for some reason, so he then kills her.

Well, I think that's it to my theory, although I may have missed a couple things in my currently over-excited state. Well, Lexicon forumers, lets see what we can do with this! (Did I spell "experimentors" right? I don't trust the spellcheck!)

S.E. Jones - Jun 27, 2004 7:14 pm (#517 of 1326)
So, how would Voldemort have found out about the AK curse? I doubt the Ministry would've openly let someone pass around a curse that had no block and did nothing but kill. They may have kidnapped her, obliviated her, even had her killed, but I doubt they would have allowed something as destructive as that out, especially during a war. Plus, it sounds as if the DEs were already using the Unfogivables, including Voldemort using the AK, at the time the war was coming into full bloom (the time James and Lily graduated). So, I don't think the timing, etc, works out.

However, I do agree that they may have been researchers, as in Unspeakables in the DoM (which appears to be the research Department at the MoM). Researchers are usually the best in their field, but usually the lowest paid. James and Lily seem to have been exceptional with magic and we known James didn't need (and I'm guessing thus didn't have) a high paying job....

HP Sleuth - Jun 27, 2004 7:41 pm (#518 of 1326)
OK, so James and Lily graduate in what, 1978 I think? Never mind. That doesn't matter. Not only are there other ways of killing people, which Voldy would have been using before the AK curse, it would have been added to the existing Unforgivables. Anyways, so we already know we have a certain ratlike leak: Wormtail. Our heroes J&L tell the minister as well as the Order about their curse, and although the minister rejects it, and the Order doesn't want to use it without the Minister's consent, no one but our our wormy friend has any use for it, and Wormtail tells Voldy about it, and once Voldy and the DE's start using it, the Ministry is forced to let the Order and the Aurors use it. Alright, I concede that the timing might be a bit off, but perhaps, instead of Lily discovering the curse after school, perhaps she discovered it in her 5th year or so? I don't know why I'm defending this theory, but...

S.E. Jones - Jun 27, 2004 8:02 pm (#519 of 1326)
Well, Wormtail didn't start spying for Voldemort until about the time Harry was born (Sirius says a year before James and Lily died), and Crouch had given the Aurors permission to use the Unforgivables on DEs (who were already using them) before Sirius was captured. So, I don't think Wormtail could've told Voldemort because it seems that Voldemort already had it by the time he acquired Wormtail's services. And, as I've already said, the Ministry wouldn't have let something like that get around.

EDIT: Also, it would seem that this is the spell (the AK) that Tom Riddle, Jr used to kill his dad and grandparents as they were found dead but with no marks on them, which is the description of what the AK does.

HP Sleuth - Jun 27, 2004 8:50 pm (#520 of 1326)
I always thought that perhaps Tom Riddle Jr killed his parent's with a basilisk...which may have given them the look of fright on their faces. I believe that Wormtail started spying for Voldy a while back, and even if Crouch had given permission to use Unforgivables, that doesn't mean that AK was already one of them, does it? Anyways, since you seem to be disproving this theory very well, S.E., maybe, even if Lily didn't invent the AK, but invented something else important, Harry will retain the "eye" of it, since he inherited his mother's eyes? Hmmm......I'm going to think about that for awhile...

Ff3girl - Jun 27, 2004 8:52 pm (#521 of 1326)
"Also, it would seem that this is the spell (the AK) that Tom Riddle, Jr used to kill his dad and grandparents as they were found dead but with no marks on them, which is the description of what the AK does."

Thanks, S.E. Jones. I knew there was an instance when Avada Kedavra had been used in the past, but I couldn't quite remember what it was...

It seems to me that a curse for killing definitely would've been discovered long before Lily, since people have kind of been killing each other since the dawn of time... Cain and Abel, anyone?

EDIT: Killed them with the basilisk? I think the basilisk was locked away in the chamber after Tom Riddle accused Hagrid. I think Tom said he had to 'behave himself' or something along those lines since Dumbledore was growing suspicious of him. It would be rather difficult to transport a basilisk from the school to the Riddle mansion, wouldn't it?

S.E. Jones - Jun 27, 2004 9:01 pm (#522 of 1326)
I agree, the basilisk would be hard to move from the school to house and back again, without being seen. Frank saw a teenage boy, but not a huge snake. Also, I was under the impression that, though the basilisk stare kills much like the AK, it might also petrify in the process (though I'm not sure). There could be several reasons they were terrified when they died. Tom Jr could've shown up and proved that Tom Sr's wife had once been a real-life witch with magical abilities. That might scare a great many people, especially if the son of said witch started zapping your relatives with a wand. Or, maybe he just jumped out and screamed 'boo' at them before he zapped them (though I hope not, his grandparents were rather elderly)....

Chemyst - Jun 27, 2004 9:36 pm (#523 of 1326)
At the Lexicon Spell Listing for Avada Kedavra, they say it was "probably" used by Tom Riddle. They also note that according to The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter, the phrase was used by ancient wizards to make illnesses disappear, but that there's no proof it was ever used to kill anyone at that time. So at best, Lily could not have invented it, though she may have developed the new & improved version. But if she was so good at that, why don't we have a record of her using on her attacker instead of simply pleading to spare Harry's life? Did she leave her wand in her other purse?

HP Sleuth - Jun 27, 2004 9:39 pm (#524 of 1326)
Hmmm.....I think I'll keep defending this theory, to see how long I can last...aha! Well, even if our adolescent Voldy didn't kill his parents with the school basilisk, he may have had a different basilisk(what kind of snake is Nagini, by the way?), and even if he didn't kill them with a basilisk, I believe he was still in school, since in CoS he is described as being 16 years old when the CoS was opened fifty years before 1992(I think?). This would make him either in 5th or 6th year. Two years later, which is 50 years before 1994(Again, is this the right year? Also, what is with all these fifties? Dumbly is also 150 years old, etc. Any suggestions? preferably in another thread), do you really think that he would know the killing curse (assuming Lily didn't invent it), or, for that matter, even an Unforgivable Curse that quickly out of school? I mean, I know he's Lord Voldemort and all, but that's still an incredible feat. Ff3girl, people have been massacring each other for millenia, but you'd think that people would have invented the nuclear bomb earlier, wouldn't you? And it was also invented by one of the greatest minds ever. Just a philosophical thought on the history of Man(and Wizard) kind. Also, if Avada Kedavra was invented so long ago, why hasn't anyone invented a mass-killing curse?

EDIT: Oh, Chemyst, I didn't see your post. I think she was one, too afraid, and two, I think she was using both hands holding Harry and protecting him.

S.E. Jones - Jun 27, 2004 9:58 pm (#525 of 1326)
HP Sleuth: do you really think that he would know the killing curse (assuming Lily didn't invent it), or, for that matter, even an Unforgivable Curse that quickly out of school? I mean, I know he's Lord Voldemort and all, but that's still an incredible feat.

Why not? Why would it be such a big feat for him to learn it straight out of school? You are suggesting Lily created it straight out of school and that has to be far more complicated that simply learning it. Lily died around age 21, was about 20 when she had Harry, and so must've been out of school for only about 3 years (you can find more on the dates and ages on the Lexicon). That's very young to be doing all this and, though she was a very talented witch, she has never been compared to Voldemort in power or magical knowledge....

HP Sleuth - Jun 27, 2004 10:09 pm (#526 of 1326)
Hmmm....I was suggesting that Lily created it entirely on accident, perhaps as an alternative "Patronus", which would chase a dementor away with green light instead of silver, or something like that, I am also just saying that she invented the incantation, perhaps she thought that it was still a "work in progress", so maybe she and James were playing around, and one of them used AK and missed and hit a bird or something. I'm not saying that she was a master of the Curse, just because you invent something, doesn't mean that you're the best at it, if that makes any sense. I have to go to bed now, and I'll be busy tommorrow until at least three, and I'll probably come back to a forum full of angry people with counter arguments to mine. lol. That said, does anybody think there is any plausibility in my theories?

S.E. Jones - Jun 27, 2004 10:27 pm (#527 of 1326)
HP Sleuth: does anybody think there is any plausibility in my theories?

I can definately see Lily inventing something having to do with the AK, but not the AK itself. It was theorized long ago (perhaps on the EZboards) that Lily used a charm on Harry to deflect the curse; a charm that was sealed by her sacrifice (hence her not using any magic against Voldemort) just as the blood pact that protects Harry at Privet Drive was sealed by Petunia taking him into her home. Now this charm invoked ancient magic, but that doesn't mean that she couldn't have invented it (the charm, not the magic). There was also a theory that what James and Lily did for a living was research (as Unspeakables in the DoM) and what they researched was ways of blocking the AK. How's that?

Ff3girl - Jun 27, 2004 10:45 pm (#528 of 1326)
Ok, you have a good point that it hasn't been confirmed that the AK curse is what killed the Riddles, but I still don't think a basilisk did it. Even if Tom riddle did have another basilisk, they really aren't very 'portable.' I don't think he could've just kept one locked up conveniently close to his father's house. He couldn't exactly just call "accio basilisk" and have it fly over to his aide. Haha... that was a funny picture in my mind. ^_^

I also think that the basilisk probably would've petrified them, but there's no evidence for my theory on that.

In the end, I think the AK just makes more sense as the cause of their death.

Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jun 28, 2004 12:46 pm (#529 of 1326)
I was just on the JKR website, which seems to have been updated as of today, and in the FAQ section the question of which order James and Lily should have come out of the wand has been asked and answered. JKR says it was correct the first time, James then Lily. Maybe some of you could doublecheck the site for me. I've reread it several times but I can't believe that's accurate.

S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 12:50 pm (#530 of 1326)
Lupin is Lupin, that is indeed what she said. I posted about it earlier on the 'Glitch in GoF' thread with full text....

Prefect Marcus - Jun 28, 2004 1:48 pm (#531 of 1326)
Ha Ha Ha. How much you want to bet that there is going to be a quick revision to the site?

S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 1:52 pm (#532 of 1326)
Wouldn't be surprised....

Chemyst - Jun 28, 2004 2:25 pm (#533 of 1326)
Also in the FAQ section about the books, in answer to the question about Harry seeing thestrals, we learn that Harry was in his cot and did not see his parents die. This invalidates the speculation in #524 that Lily was using both hands holding Harry and protecting him. --and relieves the mental images of baby Harry plummeting from her arms.

So, if James died last, after Lily had already sacrificed herself --which we've always assumed coincided with the Harry deflecting the curse and Voldemort losing his body, then... either our timetable has been wrong, -or- Voldemort did not directly kill James since he no longer had a body.

HP Sleuth - Jun 28, 2004 11:33 pm (#534 of 1326)
S.E. Jones: There was also a theory that what James and Lily did for a living was research (as Unspeakables in the DoM) and what they researched was ways of blocking the AK. How's that?

I personally don't see this as happening, as James and his friends (excepting wormy Wormtail) seem to hate being cowardly, and more geared toward action...I mean, I see this as useful, and perhaps James using it often, if it existed, but I don't see James as being one to invent it.

Chemyst, I don't think that Lily used a wand on our little Voldy, because throughout the books, there isn't a shred of evidence to my knowledge that Lily actually dueled Voldy like James did. EDIT: Maybe Lily, seeing Voldy break into the room, stood in front of Harry's cot, thus "Stand aside, you silly girl!", and she refuses, and then he kills her, since she didn't grab her wand in time? Just a theory.

About James dying last, I think that this is actually VERY, VERY, VERY important to the plot. How though, my sore little deducting mind cannot figure out right now.

About JKR's website, on the other hand, the "unopenable door" can now be opened. *Leans back in chair, lets out a long slow hiss, "Eeeeexcellent"*. The only problem is that on the other side is a wall of bricks. Clicking on certain bricks makes them disappear, but if you click them in a certain order, they reappear. SOS!!!

EDIT: Another revision to the JKR website is that now the Harry Potter Lexicon is fansite of the month!!! Three cheers for HPL!!!

Dumbledore - Jun 29, 2004 2:45 pm (#535 of 1326)
I thought the wand order thing in which James came out first in book 4 was reversed in future editions. I have always been under the assumption that Voldemort dueled with Voldemort (did he duel?) and was killed, and then Lily sacrificed herself for Harry afterward. For my own reference, in what interview, specifically, did it say that Harry didn't actually see his parents' murder?

Chemyst - Jun 29, 2004 5:26 pm (#536 of 1326)
For my own reference, in what interview, specifically, did it say that Harry didn't actually see his parents' murder?

It is on her updated website under FAQ (the paperclips)- then About the Books (envelope on right) - then in answer to the third dark mark question about thestrals she says, "Harry didn't see his parents die. He was in his cot at the time... all he saw was a flash of green light"

Dumbledore - Jun 29, 2004 5:38 pm (#537 of 1326)
Thanks, Chemyst.

vball man - Jun 29, 2004 6:53 pm (#538 of 1326)
Actually, Harry didnn't see Cedric die, either. GoF is very clear that Harry had his eyes closed when Cedric was killed.

Prefect Marcus - Jun 29, 2004 8:53 pm (#539 of 1326)
I am amused by the posting on JKR's site that the GoF original wand order was Lily, then James; but the American editor thought it was a mistake so everyone "corrected" it.

Remember all those who complained at the change? The word order was all wrong, they claimed. It didn't fit, they said.

Well, now we know the current text mimics her original manuscript and not the other way 'round.

:-)

Kevin Griffin - Jun 30, 2004 10:47 am (#540 of 1326)
ok now im really confused. Who died first lily or james?

Chris. - Jun 30, 2004 11:00 am (#541 of 1326)
James did or so we think. He tried to hold off Lily, who presumabley ran to Harry's bedroom and put him in his cot and tried to quiet him. Voldemort kills James and then murders Lily after her pleading. He attacks Harry and the curse backfires, and then roll on PS/SS.

sewfuninme - Jun 30, 2004 7:12 pm (#542 of 1326)
Lily gave her life to save Harry. Did James do that also, but after Lily, before Harry was attacked? I don't think Harry has interpreted his dementor "memories" correctly. I just can't seem to get a hook in exactly what it is that is wrong, but I am pretty sure there is something not quite correct.

Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jul 1, 2004 7:19 am (#543 of 1326)
You know....Prefect Marcus once said, I can't remember where, that while Harry is extremely observant he doesn't always interpret his observations correctly. That could dovetail quite nicely with your idea, sewfuninme.

Dumbledore - Jul 1, 2004 11:00 am (#544 of 1326)
But didn't JKR say to us that the wand order thing with Lily coming out first was correct? That would mean that James got Avada Kedavra'd first...so he couldn't have sacrificed himself after Lily sacrificed herself.

sewfuninme - Jul 2, 2004 3:06 pm (#545 of 1326)
Dumbledore, I just checked the Rowling site, and you are correct, Lily came out of the wand first, so that means that James died first. I was still under the impression that Rowling had said the wand order had been incorrect.

I do think though that there is something wrong with how Harry has interpreted his Dementor "memories".

Dumbledore - Jul 3, 2004 3:46 pm (#546 of 1326)
It is plausible that Harry misinterpreted his dementor "memories". For example, the man's voice who said something like "Lily! He's here! Take Harry and go!" we take to be James' voice, but we really don't know for sure. It is possible that Harry might have recognized his voice from his infancy, but I don't think it very likely. Also, there are infinite ways that Harry possibly could've interpreted his dementor "memories", and it would be interesting to see what effect that has on the plot when we finally find out the true facts of what happened that fateful Halloween night...

Dumbledore - Jul 7, 2004 8:36 am (#547 of 1326)
Do you think that Lily knew that James (and the other three marauders) were illegal animagi? Dumbledore didn't even know until PoA, so he couldn't have used his animagus as a means to spy on Voldemort and/or the Death Eaters.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 7, 2004 9:14 am (#548 of 1326)
It is possible that Lily knew that James, Sirius and Peter were animagi. I believe James would have told Lily for several reasons. First, James would have told Lily in an effort to be more open and honest with her as well as attempting to impress her. Second, James would in all likelihood have explained the need to keep watch over Remus during his transformations.

In all likelihood Lily would have had a Hermionesque reaction to the situation. By that I mean that she may have disapproved at first because, of the illegality of the situation. But, in time she would have understood the necessity of having James, Sirius, and Peter become animagi. Because, James and Sirius ability to transfigure themselves lessened the likelihood in the absence of the Wolfsbane Potion that Lupin would do anyone harm during his transformations. The combined power of Padfoot and Prongs would have been able to check any sudden rages on Moony's part. While Wormtail would have been useful in disabiling the whomping willow and effecting entry to the tunnel to the Shrieking Shack.

So I doubt she would have revealed their secret. Because while, their actions are illegal, they are not immoral or unethical. In that the Marauders being unregistered animagi further enhanced the security and protections in place to protect the staff of Hogwarts and the other students.

Best Regards, Nathan

hermione - Jul 7, 2004 12:36 pm (#549 of 1326)
Sorry to change the subject temporarily, but most of us know that 'James' is Harry's middle name and 'Evans' is Lily's middle name. I was wondering, what's James' middle name? In sorcerer's stone, while Harry's looking in the Mirror of Erised, he sees someone like a grandfather among his parents and others, but it doesn't specify who it actually is. Does anyone know who James' father was, or what his middle name is? Thanks!

haymoni - Jul 7, 2004 12:44 pm (#550 of 1326)
He might not have told her until they were out of Hogwarts.

Mona on Wed May 11, 2011 11:56 pm

Dr Filibuster - Jul 7, 2004 3:06 pm (#551 of 1326)
Evans was Lily's maiden name (surname before her marraige), not her middle name. Lily Potter nee Evans.

Robert Dierken - Jul 7, 2004 5:52 pm (#552 of 1326)
Hermione

James' full name is James Harry Potter.

sewfuninme - Jul 7, 2004 5:54 pm (#553 of 1326)
Where are we told James' full name is James Harry Potter?

Dumbledore - Jul 7, 2004 5:58 pm (#554 of 1326)
I don't think we were...although I am probably mistaken. A little ironic, wouldn't it be? James Harry Potter and Harry James Potter! :-)

S.E. Jones - Jul 7, 2004 8:03 pm (#555 of 1326)
We don't know James's full name. We were never told....

Chris. - Jul 8, 2004 1:43 am (#556 of 1326)
I've seen it used in fanfiction a whole lot of times but not canon.

Prefect Marcus - Jul 8, 2004 7:29 am (#557 of 1326)
Prongs - I've seen it used in fanfiction a whole lot of times but not canon.

Which is one big reason I never read fanfic.

S.E. Jones - Jul 8, 2004 5:40 pm (#558 of 1326)
I'm currently theorizing that James was not a pureblood (though he may have been from a pureblooded family via one of his parents). I'm trying to pick holes in my own theory at the moment. Can anyone help by helping me pull up any reasons why we think he might be a pureblood? There's the wealth and the arrogant attitude (strutting, etc)... Anything else?

Anna Osipova - Jul 8, 2004 6:05 pm (#559 of 1326)
From what I've noticed, pureblood families mean that there are no half bloods or muggleborns on the tapestry, so to speak. So, if there were a muggleborn, or even a half blood, the entire family would no longer be considered pureblooded... I think :~S

Hollywand - Jul 8, 2004 6:39 pm (#560 of 1326)
SE Jones--The main incident that leads me to think of James as a Pureblood is the Occlumency lesson where Harry gets to witness his father teasing Severus. When Lilly intervenes and demands that James stop, Severus responds by calling her a filthy mudblood. James immediately demands an apology from Severus on behalf of Lilly. If he were not a pureblood, he would have been insulted by the reference on his own behalf, I think, even if he were a half blood since he already has Severus in a very vulnerable position. Thoughts?

S.E. Jones - Jul 8, 2004 6:49 pm (#561 of 1326)
I'm not sure if he would be so insulted if he were a halfblood, especially if the Muggle/Muggle-born were back a ways (say a grandparent). He might've been more upset (still don't see insulted though, just angry) if his mum or dad were Muggle/Muggle-born.

Anna Osipova, what I meant by my reference to a connection to a pureblooded family was that the family was probably pureblooded up to the point where the Muggle/Muggle-born entered it. You are right that they wouldn't be afterward (at least not until they married enough generations of wizards/witches to "breed out" the Muggle blood), but the name might still carry certain social connections. Sorry I didn't phrase that part very well before.

Can anyone think of anything else?

Anna Osipova - Jul 8, 2004 7:04 pm (#562 of 1326)
Hollywand, I think James is not one to get upset over an insult in any case, muggleborn, half blood, or pureblood.

Hollywand - Jul 8, 2004 7:27 pm (#563 of 1326)
Well, SE Jones and Anna you could be correct, as Harry is a half blood with his muggle born mum, and he doesn't seem to take Draco's insults to Hermione personally.

Verbina - Jul 8, 2004 10:26 pm (#564 of 1326)
Did Sirius parents have any objection to his being friends with James? I know we don't have an answer to this but...if the Blacks had a big issue with Sirius being friends with James, it could be connected to the purity of his blood. But if they didn't have a huge issue with James...he would then be thought of by them as pureblood and worthy of their son's friendship. But as we don't have an answer...other than Sirius went to James house a great deal...it really wouldn't mean anything.

Sorry. I thought I had something there!

Anna Osipova - Jul 8, 2004 10:38 pm (#565 of 1326)
I think that's similar to the whole Malfoy-Weasley relationship. The Weasleys are also purebloods, but because of their association with muggles, the Malfoys look down upon them. I'm sure something very similar can be seen with the Blacks and Potters.

Hollywand - Jul 8, 2004 10:47 pm (#566 of 1326)
No, I do think you have something there, Verbina. The portraits at Grimauld place have a contempt toward Sirius, because he does not ascribe to their cruelty. They seem to really disagree with Sirius hosting the Order or associating with Harry, and/or James. I would love to know why the portrait of his (?) grandmother shrieked constantly. Ghosts all around Sirius at Grimauld, the last of his (pureblood) line.

S.E. Jones - Jul 8, 2004 10:58 pm (#567 of 1326)
Actually, Verbina, I worked that into my theory. I figure, if he was a half-blood, but one from a wealthy family (especially if the wizarding side of his family was old and very pure), then the Blacks may not have said much about him being friends with Sirius or even staying at Grimmauld Place. Sure they'd grumble, but they wouldn't openly throw him out the way they would, say, Lupin. That might explain Kreacher's comment about Sirius always liking strange houseguests.

Peregrine - Jul 9, 2004 8:15 am (#568 of 1326)
Do we really know when the riff between Sirius and his family started? He could have hated them all his life, or just started hating them because when he met half-blooded James, 11 year old Sirius realized his parents' ideas were totally horrific and wrong.

I've always thought of James as either pure blooded or mostly pure blooded (pure blooded for hundreds of years with just two or three half blood marriages thrown in).

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 9, 2004 1:34 pm (#569 of 1326)
Peregrine, the canon only speaks of Sirius leaving home and the last time Sirius saw Bellatrix.

"I used to be there, said Sirius," pointing a amall, round, charred hole in the tapestry, rather like a cigarette burn. "My sweet old mother blasted me off after I ran away from home -- Kreacher is quite fond muttering the story under his breath." "You ran away from from home?" "When I was about sixteen," "Where did you go?" asked, Harry, staring at him. "Your dad's place," said Sirius.. and then when I was seventeen I got a place of my own Page 164-5 of the Large Print edition of Order of the Phoenix printed by Thorndike Press

Later in the chapter Harry discovers Sirius is related to the Malffoys and the Lestranges and the following exchange ensued.

"You never said she was your--" "Does it matter if she's my cousin?" sanpped Sirius "As far as I'm concerned, they're not my family She's certainly not my family family. I haven't seen her since I was your age, unless you count a glimpse of her coming into Azkaban. Page 168 of the Large Print Edition of Order of the Phoenix printed by Thorndike Press.

Although, it is likely that the beginnings of the rift occurred some time before the events described above.

Now the reactions and attitudes that Mr. and Mrs. Black had about the friendship that James and Sirius had could shifted over time. With the most significant alteration coming when Sirius ran away from home. It is possible that Mr. and Mrs. Black blamed James and his parents for their son's rejection of the pure blood mania as well as for inciting him to run away.

Best Regards, Nathan

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 14, 2004 9:51 pm (#570 of 1326)
S.E. Jones, the comment you made on wealth is an interesting observation. It makes me wonder the Potters status within the wiarding world would have been affected not only by their blood status. But could the status of the Potters within the Wizarding world have been affected by whether they were a new money or old money family.

When I use the term new money, I mean it to refer to families who have accrued their wealth within the last century. In contrast, when I use the term old money, I mean it to refer to families such as the Blacks who have accrued their wealth over centuries.

Best Regards, Nathan

S.E. Jones - Jul 14, 2004 10:06 pm (#571 of 1326)
I don't think they think of families in terms of 'new money' and 'old money' but 'new blood' and 'old blood'. I think the whole blood status thing (how pure your blood is) has replaced the money status thing that you might find in, say, Gilded Age America (late 1800s-early 1900s). It seems to me that, in most cases, old blood runs hand in hand with old money. The Weasleys seem to be the exception to this rule but there may be many explanations as to what happened to the family money, assuming there was a fortune at some time. Since the Potters did have a fortune that was apparently inherited down the line (first by James, then by his son; we might even assume James's father inherited it), I'd say it comes from someone in the family being old blood. The fact that they retained the money after so many years might parallel that they've also retained the pureblood connections (since money, power, and connections often go hand in hand in real-life), as well. Thus, even though they may no longer be a pureblooded family, the Potters may still have a pureblood-esk status....

haymoni - Jul 15, 2004 5:29 am (#572 of 1326)
I still wonder if Sirius had problems with his family when he was sorted into Gryffindor.

He was raised similarly to Malfoy regarding the pureblood thing. He gets to Hogwarts - gets sorted into Gryffindor (Horrors!)- meets James and realizes that what he was taught at home is not the only way to live.

James could have been the source of the Black family fallout.

S.E. Jones - Jul 15, 2004 10:58 am (#573 of 1326)
I somehow doubt it. I have a feeling Sirius already disagreed with the family mindset. I think James was just a kindred spirit for Sirius and he was just happy to find someone who thought the same way he did about things.....

haymoni - Jul 15, 2004 11:06 am (#574 of 1326)
11 years old is pretty young to disagree with everything you have been taught by your parents. You may wonder or think that things might not be right, but it took until he was, what? 16 or 17? before he actually was thrown out.

Harry learned early not to ask questions. Even with wizards waving at him, he never really pushed it with the Durselys.

Although, I don't know how far I would push things if it landed me weeks on end in a closet.

S.E. Jones - Jul 15, 2004 11:25 am (#575 of 1326)
Well, I think Harry grew up thinking completely contrary to the Dursleys, but that doesn't mean that he openly challenged their views. He waited till he was older to do that. I think Sirius was the same way. He didn't agree with his parents, but he didn't openly challenge them. When he turned 16, he was far more willing to and he ran away from home for good (he didn't get thrown out but left). I think coming to Hogwarts, he met James, found that James thought the same way he did, and this helped reinforce his strength of will. I don't think it changed his way of thinking.

haymoni - Jul 15, 2004 11:26 am (#576 of 1326)
I think we are basically saying the same thing - James was a way out for Sirius.

S.E. Jones - Jul 15, 2004 3:23 pm (#577 of 1326)
Are we? I was just saying that James and Sirius already thought the same way, hence why they became such fast friends.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 15, 2004 3:41 pm (#578 of 1326)
I do not think that Sirius viewed James as way out of a troubled home life when they first met. It is more likely that over time Sirius bonded with James and his parents, and that when the relationship between Sirius and his parents became so strained that it became untenable for Sirius to remain at Grimmauld Place, the Potters then offered Sirius a way out of what had become an intensely unpleasant situation by the time of his sixth year.

haymoni - Jul 15, 2004 3:58 pm (#579 of 1326)
Exactly, Nathan - He wouldn't have left if he didn't have someplace to go.

James gave him a way out.

At age 11, he may have wondered about his parents' opinions but he wouldn't have been able to actually leave.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 15, 2004 8:18 pm (#580 of 1326)
Haymoni, while I agree that James gave him a way out. I disagree that he would not have left without a place to go. Given the propensity that Sirius showed in Order of the Phoenix for rash action. By that point he would have left regardless of whether he had a place to go or not. I believe that the Potters understood this and on some level that it contributed to their decision to take Sirius in. While, I believe the Potters and James gave Sirius a way out. I believed that they were forced into the situation because, they understood that Sirius would have left home with or without a place to go by the time he left home. In order to protect him.the Potters took him in. Because of the love and bonding that occurred between them. This bonding engendered a desire to protect and nuture Sirius. This feeling of love I equate as being similar to the feelings that Arthur and Molly Weasley have towards Harry

Best Regards, Nathan

haymoni - Jul 16, 2004 5:51 am (#581 of 1326)
My point is that at age 11, you don't have the skills, knowledge or ability to blatantly defy your parents and all that they've taught you. "As long as you live under my roof, you'll do as I say" kindof thing. You may wonder and question, but you'll keep it to yourself.

Children that age can be head-strong, but they really can't do too much to assert themselves. Parents still control what is going on - or at least they SHOULD - goodness, if you've lost control of your 11 year old, what are you going to do when they are 15 or 16?

Maybe the Potters just made it easier for Sirius to leave, but I don't think he would have defied his parents after only 1 or 2 years at Hogwarts.

S.E. Jones - Jul 16, 2004 4:26 pm (#582 of 1326)
goodness, if you've lost control of your 11 year old, what are you going to do when they are 15 or 16?

Apparently not much... Sirius left of his own strong-willed accord...

As these past few posts more greatly concern Sirius than they do James (or Lily) may I suggest that we take this discussion to the Sirius thread....

Thanks!

haymoni - Jul 16, 2004 5:01 pm (#583 of 1326)
I just hope we get info on James & Lily in Book 6 - I don't think I can hold out until Book 7!

Imoen - Jul 18, 2004 12:00 pm (#584 of 1326)
You're right Haymoni, i'm looking forward to learn more about Harry's parents. Especially about Lly because we didn't learnmany things about her except that Harry's got her eyes ....Plus, I really wonder how has James finally managed to get out with Lily.... Hope we learn more about it in the next book!

contess lillein asend - Jul 19, 2004 6:49 am (#585 of 1326)
What if......

James' family are first born descendants of Slytherin. I think the fab four were in Slytherin, sorry. They sure seem to have acted just like Draco and the boys. Would meeting Lili have saved them?

Lili's family are the first born descendants of Gryffindor. I think that the parent in question was a squib, but still first born of that blood line.

That would make Harry half-prince of both and the ultimate weapon.

Eponine - Jul 19, 2004 6:59 am (#586 of 1326)
Actually, they were in Gryffindor. JKR said so in her web chat on March 4, 2004.

Sirius Riddle: What houses were Sirius Black, Remus Lupin, James Potter and Remus Lupin in? Everyone tells me they were all Gryffindor, but I won't believe it unless I hear it from Ms. Rowling herself! JK Rowling says: This is JK herself saying that they were indeed in Gryffindor!

Of course, if you read the question carefully it says Remus Lupin twice. Most people (I think) believe that she read the question and thought of all four marauders including Pettigrew.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

contess lillein asend - Jul 19, 2004 7:43 am (#587 of 1326)
Thanks for that. I've never seen it.

OK. They were Gryffindors, just really nasty ones. But that does not discount the blood theory. What is James is Uncle Alphard's son?

S.E. Jones - Jul 19, 2004 10:11 am (#588 of 1326)
JKR has said "Harry is NOT a descendent of Salazar Slytherin", so I'm afraid that discounts your theory.

JKRowling.com, 2004 (Rumors section):
R: Voldemort is Harry’s real father/grandfather/close relative of some description.
A: No, no, no, no, no. You lot have been watching too much Star Wars. James is DEFINATELY Harry’s father. Doesn’t everybody Harry meets say ‘you look just like your father’? And hasn’t Dumbledore already told Harry that Voldemort is the last surviving descendent of Salazar Slytherin? Just to clarify - this means that Harry is NOT a descendent of Salazar Slytherin.

contess lillein asend - Jul 19, 2004 12:41 pm (#589 of 1326)
Well shot that theory to heck. I guess its back to the old "twin theory". To bad, The Ultimate Weapon Theory was so much more fun. I did not have to go around reading Bulfinch's Mythology, Geomancy, Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and every other thing I could get my hands on.

So,Harry and Neville are twins, huh?

Thanks for the info.

Chris. - Jul 19, 2004 12:57 pm (#590 of 1326)
No, Harry and Neville are not twins. It's just a theory of Round Pink Spider's.

contess lillein asend - Jul 19, 2004 2:16 pm (#591 of 1326)
Clearly, We Newbies need to remain mum. I defer to the masters.

Chris. - Jul 19, 2004 5:10 pm (#592 of 1326)
Clearly, We Newbies need to remain mum. I defer to the masters.- Countess Lillein Asend.

I think you misunderstood my answer. I was not being nasty or over-ruling when I pointed out that the "Neville/Harry twin" theory was only a theory. As said on another thread I have read today, it's refreshing to get new ideas from recently joined members, like yourself. Sorry if I'm wrong about that.

Back onto topic,

I'm definately sure we'll find out more about James and Lily, either through someone telling it or the Pensieve. JKR says the parents of James don't come into it, so I'm not sure if his ancestors, too, would be included in that.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 19, 2004 5:45 pm (#593 of 1326)
Prongs, that comment on their ancestors brings up an interesting passage from Philosopher's Stone the first time Harry looks into the Mirror of Erised he sees other relatives besides his parents

And slowly, Harry looked into the faces of the other people in the mirror, and saw other pairs of green eyes like his, other noses like his, even a little old man who looked as though he had Harry's knobby knees

Is it possible that the ancestors Harry saw in the mirror apart from his Father were Lily's ancestors.

Best Regards, Nathan

S.E. Jones - Jul 19, 2004 5:50 pm (#594 of 1326)
I think he sees both sides of his family in the mirror. I think the "Potters" referred to in the text are "James and Lily Potter" not the family that's standing behind them....

Chris. - Jul 19, 2004 5:52 pm (#595 of 1326)
Harry got this nose from James.

James's eyes were hazel, his nose was slightly longer than Harry's and there was no scar on his forehead,"(OP, Ch28, P565, UK edition)

I presumed from this that James's nose had "passed onto" Harry. It's definitely possible that Lily's ancestors were, too, included in the Mirror, due to everyone telling Harry that he has his mother's, and presumably his Evans ancestors, green eyes. From your quote, Nathan, it confirms that there were green eyes, just like Harry's, staring back at him.

Explorer89 - Jul 20, 2004 4:35 am (#596 of 1326)
But, if Lilly were all-Muggle, why do you suppose HER family was represented in that mirror? I've been struggling with the idea that perhaps Harry is half-blood from his father's side, but when Snape calls Lilly 'Mudblood', that sort of indicates that her family really IS all Muggle.

But, another clue that maybe there is magic on the Evans side somewhere is in the JKR chat, someone asks what Dudley sees when the Dementors are around, and JKR was evasive in her answer. If Dudley were pure Muggle, the answer was simple....he would see nothing.

P.S. I'm new here....my first post!

contess lillein asend - Jul 20, 2004 5:03 am (#597 of 1326)
Prongs, That was not referring to you, I realized that you guys have been doing this for a very long time, and I would need to go back and read all the previous info before making a comment. Always interested in learning.

Thanks

haymoni - Jul 20, 2004 5:56 am (#598 of 1326)
I don't think you had to be a wizard to appear in the Mirro of Erised. Harry didn't wanted to have family and so he saw them.

Mom's side, Dad's side - everyone.

What is interesting is that the Dursleys weren't there. I guess his deepest desire was to have family OTHER than the Dursleys.

I think we can all understand that!

Kieran Burke - Jul 20, 2004 9:29 am (#599 of 1326)
Maybe they weren't talking about it in seventh year, all we know is that they started dating in seventh year, they could have become friends in sixth year and gotten very close before they started dating. Also she says "telling" but for all we know they might have just been brought up in conversation and lily already knew about them but didn't know the full extent of their powers.

haymoni - Jul 20, 2004 9:47 am (#600 of 1326)
Goodness - I have to look at my postings before I send them -

It should be "Mirror" not Mirro

And the sentance about Harry should be "Harry wanted to have family"

Sorry!

Mona on Thu May 12, 2011 12:04 am

Lily Potter - Jul 20, 2004 1:30 pm (#601 of 1326)
I can imagine it's also just something that came up. The dementors are unique in the wizarding world too. I wouldn't see it as out of place for James and Lily to be discussing what it must be like in Azkaban. Nor would it seem that out of place, for a young man, trying to impress a woman with his knowledge of something like Dementors. For all we know, he could have been bragging about how they don't scare him at all. I've known a few young men like that myself. Wink

But for someone like Petunia, who is sheltered from a lot of the abnormalities the wizarding world has in comparison to her own, Dementors would still seem like a very frightening thing.

S.E. Jones - Jul 20, 2004 3:39 pm (#602 of 1326)
Explorer89: But, another clue that maybe there is magic on the Evans side somewhere is in the JKR chat, someone asks what Dudley sees when the Dementors are around, and JKR was evasive in her answer. If Dudley were pure Muggle, the answer was simple....he would see nothing.

No, he'd see something in his head, Muggle or Wizard. He'd only not be able to see the Dementors themselves if he were Muggle, which he never mentioned being able to see them. All he said was that he saw things in his head (memories, etc).

The Mirror shows you anything you truely want, so if you truely wanted a crumpled-horn snorkack, it would show a crumpled-horn snorkack, even if they don't really exist. The mirror doesn't give truth, just desires.....

Good Evans - Jul 23, 2004 1:47 pm (#603 of 1326)
Apologies if this has been up before ..... I couldn't find it if it has, I have often wondered whether James Sirius lupin and pettigrew were in slytherin. hear me out before you jump!

Sirius clearly comes from a long line of slytherin , lupin has the werewolf part of him and Peter is just slime - I am not happy about James - but just because all DE's come from slytherin (Rons comment in book 1 about "there wasnt a witch or wizard that went bad that wasnt in slytherin!") doesn't mean that all in slytherin are bad.

It doesn't sit well with me (and perhaps this is another reason that the sorting hat considered harry for slytherin) but I cant help but wonder.

I know in the film that it shows gryffindor seeker / quidditch team - but is it that obvious in the book? someone tell me I am wring please!!!

Julia. - Jul 23, 2004 2:55 pm (#604 of 1326)
James, Sirius and Lupin were in Gryffindor.

Sirius Riddle: What houses were Sirius Black, Remus Lupin, James Potter and Remus Lupin in? Everyone tells me they were all Gryffindor, but I won't believe it unless I hear it from Ms. Rowling herself!
JK Rowling says: This is JK herself saying that they were indeed in Gryffindor!

As you can see, the qustion lists Remus Lupin twice. Peter Pettigrew is never listed, so we do not know for sure what house he was in. The general auumption is Gryffindor, but it cannot be proved in the canon.

Good Evans - Jul 25, 2004 2:02 pm (#605 of 1326)
Thanks for that - it does put my mind at rest with james I didn't like to think of him as a Slytherin - but you never know - until JK tells us - so thanks for passing that on.

Assumedly this was the nail in the coffin for sirius and his family as he was not placed in slytherin.

Hermy-own - Aug 6, 2004 7:18 pm (#606 of 1326)
Can we assume Lily was also a Gryffindor? I don't think it has been mentioned in any of the books but I might be wrong.

EDIT: Sorry if this has already been discussed, I'm sort of new to the whole forum thing.

azi - Aug 7, 2004 1:52 pm (#607 of 1326)
Yes, Lily was a Gryffindor. JKR told us in an interview. I think it was the same one she said Hagrid was in Gryffindor also.

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 10, 2004 3:14 pm (#608 of 1326)
There was a post in the D.A. thread that attempted to a draw a generational parallel between the relationship that Lily and Petunia have and the relationship between D.A. members especially Harry and Severus Snape.

Taniwha - Aug 9, 2004 4:25 pm (#421 of 481)

as I started to sa earlier Petunia Dursley said she saw Lily for what she really was, Severus Snape also sees Harry Potter and his gang who has a disregard for the rules, if they do not agree with them

While, I do not think it is possible to draw such a parallel or make such a comparision,. I thought the idea might prove interesting to discuss.

Solitaire - Aug 13, 2004 2:25 pm (#609 of 1326)
This is my first post on this thread, and I confess I have NOT read all 608 posts. That said, I apologize in advance if I bring up things already asked and answered here. I will only request that someone point me to the right posts, if necessary.

In the prophecy, we learn that Harry's parents have "thrice defied" Voldemort. I think it will be interesting to learn what those three times entailed. This morning I got to thinking ... what if one of those times involved them saving the lives of the Dursleys? If Voldemort was after the Potters, surely the first place he might look would be her Muggle family.

If there was some kind of attack--either by DEs or by Voldemort himself--in an attempt to find the Potters, and James and Lily thwarted it, Petunia would be under obligation to them and this could also account for her taking in Harry. This would be particularly true if Lily put some sort of Imperturbable Charm around the Dursleys and their home, so that nothing could get near it. That charm, in addition to the "ancient magic" invoked by Dumbledore when he sealed the blood charm, could account for why Harry has been "protected better than even he knows," or words to that effect.

Assuming there was such an attack, it might also be related to what the Dud remembers during the Dementor attack. The consensus seems to be that most of his life has been pretty cushy, with nothing Harry can remember that would ever have been sad or unpleasant. What if the unpleasant thing is a dim and distant memory from when he was a tiny (I know, hard to imagine him tiny) child. After all, that is the kind of memory that haunts Harry.

If the Dursleys--in particular Petunia and Dudley--survived an attack and were saved and protected by Lily and James, this could explain how she came to know about Voldemort, Azkaban, and Dementors--and why she felt obligated to take in Harry, even against her will.

What do you think?

Solitaire

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 13, 2004 2:41 pm (#610 of 1326)
Solitaire, I think the ideas has potential. Although, I tend to think that both the Potter and Evans were attacked and the atatck on the Dursley's if one occurred was an extension of an attack on the Evans family.

Cheers, Nathan

Solitaire - Aug 13, 2004 2:50 pm (#611 of 1326)
Equally plausible, Nathan, especially since we do not know how the Evanses died. Maybe Voldemort killed them ... in fact, it would lend even more weight to why Petunia hates the magical world and resents Lily. She would naturally blame her for their deaths, if indeed they were killed by DEs or Voldemort.

Solitaire

TomProffitt - Aug 13, 2004 9:44 pm (#612 of 1326)
I've always assumed that for there to be no surviving Evanses and Potters aside from the ones that live at 4 Privet Drive to be a pretty clear indication that some Death Eaters had been at work.

hellocello3200 - Aug 22, 2004 1:45 pm (#613 of 1326)
The Evanses were probably killed in some way related to magic or Harry probably would have heard more about them living with the Dursleys.

Does anyone think that it is possible that James turns out to be a "bad guy". The one time we see him in action he is pretty nasty. I mentioned this to a friend and she acted like I was crazy. I don't think it is too likely though, seeing as Sirius and Lupin sem to think he is a good guy.

Hermy-own - Aug 22, 2004 3:33 pm (#614 of 1326)
Cello, what do you mean by "bad guy"? Do you mean bad as we saw him in Snape's worst memory, or bad as in turning traitor on the good guys?

It is pretty clear Lily did not like James at the time of the memory. However, the fact they ended up together strongly suggests that James must have changed his ways i.e. was no longer a bad guy.

James on LV's side? Long shot but interesting. Don't let Harry hear you say that though...

hellocello3200 - Aug 22, 2004 6:23 pm (#615 of 1326)
I guess I mean bad as in traitor, but I don't have some clear theory as to what he would do for LV. It is possible that he could be kind to Lily and his friends while working for LV. In Snape's memory he was able to make people like him while he was mean to Snape.The whole thing is pretty unlikely but I'm sure Rowling will include all sorts of twist in the next books that may be unexpected.

Solitaire - Aug 22, 2004 8:12 pm (#616 of 1326)
In Chapter 29, page 670-671 (US ed.), Harry talks to Lupin and Sirius, in Umbridge's fire, about what he saw in the Pensieve. Lupin says the following: "I wouldn't like you to judge your father on what you saw there, Harry. He was only fifteen--"

Sirius says that James and Snape "hated each other from the moment they set eyes on each other, it was just one of those things, you can understand that, can't you?" He goes on to say, "Snape was just this little oddball who was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts and James--whatever else he may have appeared to you, Harry--always hated the Dark Arts."

Farther into the conversation, they both tell Harry that Lily began to like James when he had "deflated his head a bit" and "stopped hexing people just for the fun of it."

When Harry asked if that went for Snape, too, Lupin answered him, "Well, Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James, so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?"

It doesn't sound like James would be the type to join forces with Voldemort. He and Lily were Aurors with the Order of the Phoenix. The prophecy said that they had defied Voldemort thrice ... I just don't see him being the traitor.

Solitaire

S.E. Jones - Aug 22, 2004 9:26 pm (#617 of 1326)
No. It seems that James hated Dark Arts (and Snape for knowing them), so I can see him joining forces with anyone but an anti-Dark Arts group (i.e. the Order). I have to wonder if he didn't come from a long line of anti-Dark Arts activists or something. ("...and James--whatever else he may have appeared to you, Harry--always hated the Dark Arts." - OotP)

sewfuninme - Sep 3, 2004 3:58 pm (#618 of 1326)
Solitaire - I don't think we know what kind of work James and Lily did. There seems to be speculation that they worked in the Department of Mysteries. I think that JKR has said that what they did for work though does matter to the storyline.

Solitaire - Sep 3, 2004 10:27 pm (#619 of 1326)
I thought we were told they were Aurors. Not so?

Chris. - Sep 4, 2004 8:21 am (#620 of 1326)
No, JKR hasn't revealed what James and Lily's occupations were. All we've been told was that James didn't need a well-payed job as he inherited a lot of money.

Good Evans - Sep 4, 2004 8:51 am (#621 of 1326)
Could it be that James' parents were killed by Dark Wizards or Dark Arts and this is why he hated them so much? could this have been the catalyst for James to Join the order? At school James was just another student, why would this make him known well to Dumdledore? If memory serves dumbledore tells harry that "I knew your father well, both as a student at Hogwarts and then later" James was not a prefect, and DD was proabably not teaching by then but was Headmaster. this hasent as yet been explained as to how or why there was a link beween james and the order. My guess his parents and their death is the link. The only thing we do know is that they were still alive when Sirius (and James) were 16, other than that there is no reference. JKR says that their stories are not important to the plot but it could be the "missing link" not altogther vital but a filling in the gaps piece of info.

James and Snape just hated each other (it was hate at first site) - this may well be another reason for his hating the dark arts rather than being the reason he hated snape.

just my thoughts...

Chris. - Sep 4, 2004 9:01 am (#622 of 1326)
I imagine James's mother and father to be quite far up in the Ministry, Aurors perhaps. James was Headboy at Hogwarts, so I imagine he and Dumbledore worked closely together to keep the school running smoothly through VW1, Lily also would help as she was Headgirl and a Prefect. J and L were perfect candidates for Dumbledore to pick as Order members, IMO.

Perhaps Dumbledore did know the Potter parents before their death, we just have to wait and see.

Good Evans - Sep 4, 2004 9:11 am (#623 of 1326)
have I missed something prongs? Where is it said that James and Lily where head boy and girl? If so this would expaloin why DD knew James well, but this had passed me by.

Chris. - Sep 4, 2004 9:18 am (#624 of 1326)
Good Evans, Hagrid said it to Harry in PS/SS

"Now, yer mum an' dad were as good a witch an' wizard as I ever knew. Headboy an' Girl at Hogwarts in their day!..." (UK PS/SS, Ch4, P45)

Good Evans - Sep 4, 2004 9:22 am (#625 of 1326)
Aha - thanks

Paulus Maximus - Sep 5, 2004 7:08 pm (#626 of 1326)
"Could it be that James' parents were killed by Dark Wizards or Dark Arts and this is why he hated them so much?"

Remember that Sirius stayed with James' parents after his mother disowned him.

S.E. Jones - Sep 6, 2004 2:52 pm (#627 of 1326)
Good Evans: Could it be that James' parents were killed by Dark Wizards or Dark Arts and this is why he hated them so much? could this have been the catalyst for James to Join the order?

We know they were alive when James and Sirius turned 16 as they were around to somewhat adopt Sirius as a second son when he left home. We know they were alive when Sirius later inherited his money from his uncle (he was 17) and was able to buy a house for himself because he tells us that he was "always welcome at Mr. and Mrs. Potters' for Sunday lunch". It seems to me that Sirius could've turned 16 at the end of the school year (like Ron) or during the summer (like Harry) after his 5th year. So, he would've turned 17 during his 6th year or during the summer before 7th. So, the Potters were alive then, and it was after James was picking on Snape for knowing Dark Arts. His parents' deaths at the hands of DEs might still have been a motivation for him to join the Order, but I'm guessing his hatred of the Dark Arts was more a family mentality (i.e. something he picked up from his parents). Maybe he lost other family members to the Dark Arts?....

Prongs: Lily also would help as she was Headgirl and a Prefect

Actually, we're never told that Lily was a Prefect, only Head Girl... unless there's something I missed?

Paulus Maximus - Sep 6, 2004 3:29 pm (#628 of 1326)
No, we aren't told that Lily was prefect, and it is unsafe to assume that she was prefect based on her being Head Girl.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 6, 2004 5:01 pm (#629 of 1326)
S.E. - "We know they were alive when Sirius later inherited his money from his uncle (he was 17) and was able to buy a house for himself because he tells us that he was "always welcome at Mr. and Mrs. Potters' for Sunday lunch".

If he did indeed buy a house for himself, seems to me that would have made it his house. Then why would he be confined to 12GP, somewhere he detested, as opposed to using his own house. Could not charms been put on it as well?

I guess that would mess up the story line, think I just answered my own question, please excuse the ring.

hellocello3200 - Sep 6, 2004 5:51 pm (#630 of 1326)
Maybe Sirius's house was auctioned off and the proceeds went to benefit St. Mungos or something like that after he was put away.

S.E. Jones - Sep 6, 2004 6:03 pm (#631 of 1326)
I'd imagine that Sirius's house, like his vault, was left alone by the MoM after his arrest. However, TBE pointed out, 12GP had all those extra protections from Mr. Black which would make it safer than his house, even without the Fidelius Charm. Also, I'd imagine that there would be MoM officials watching Sirius's house, in case he returned there for some reason. Even though Kingsley was in charge of the hunt for Sirius, I somehow doubt he was the only guy on the job.

Choices - Sep 7, 2004 10:24 am (#632 of 1326)
Interesting fact......this may be a repeat, but the lily and the narcissus are members of the same family. Is JKR trying to tell us something? Hint, hint??

Phoenix song - Sep 7, 2004 10:37 am (#633 of 1326)
I don't know where I've read it, but in an interview JKR said that the fact that they're both named after flowers wasn't a linking between these women. (Lily, Petunia and Narcissus)

Chris. - Sep 7, 2004 10:39 am (#634 of 1326)
I don't think they're related as I remember JKR saying Narcissa was Narcissa from the start, and that she has no relation to other flower-y named people.

Good Evans - Sep 7, 2004 10:40 am (#635 of 1326)
I posted a qestion/idea about Evans and Malfoy family connections on Aunt Petunia thread some time ago, just for reference.

Neville Longbottom - Sep 9, 2004 8:07 am (#636 of 1326)
It was in the march thread this year where JKR stated, that there's no connection between Narcissa and the Evans sisters.

Good Evans - Sep 11, 2004 10:38 am (#637 of 1326)
Hi Neville - absolutely - my suggestions was a blood relationship with the Malfoy family not Narcissa or the Black family (due to the physical description of Pet being similar to Lucius and Draco) - just for clarity

Different point - rereading OOTP - why were Lily and James discussing Dementors? Petunia says she "overheard that boy telling her about them" . Therefore suggesting that Lily and James were still quite young at the time - maybe 17 /18 (as they started going out about then and to be called a boy by Pet) the Dementors may or may not have been known to be already on the side of Voldemort?? Voldie says "the dementors of azkaban will rejoin us they are our natural allies" (GOF)Therefore telling us clearly that they were on LV's side during the first war, but if they were known to have shown their colours surely the ministry would have removed them from the prison? But if the Dementors had not done anything why were they having this conversation and what in it was so powerful that it would have stuck in Petunias mind (she seemed unaware of the soul sucking threat which came out after her slip of the tongue)?

This is a bit rambling - I suppose I am asking the question Why were Lily and James talking about Dementors and will it be relevant in the future?

S.E. Jones - Sep 11, 2004 12:59 pm (#638 of 1326)
My version of GoF (US) says "join" not "rejoin" thus indicating that they were not with Voldemort the first time around.

As for why they were talking about them, I've always assumed that James was telling Lily about the new guards who have been placed at Azkaban. I'm betting the conversation was rather interesting, especially given James's hatred for the Dark Arts (I'd say that Dementors classify as "Dark creatures").

Chris. - Sep 11, 2004 1:05 pm (#639 of 1326)
I've been thinking about the reason why James and Lily were talking about Dementors. Does anyone think they may have been attacked by Dementors, due to one of their confrontations with Voldemort?

S.E. Jones - Sep 11, 2004 1:23 pm (#640 of 1326)
I still don't think the Dementors were on Voldemort's side in the first war. Weren't they put into place at Azkaban around the time of Voldemort's rise, or during the war, to guard DEs that had been captured?

schoff - Sep 11, 2004 3:05 pm (#641 of 1326)
The Dementors were at Azkaban during VWI, and not with Voldemort (at least openly). Petunia knew about the Dementors. She said she heard "that boy talking" to Lily about it. This means she had to have heard the conversation when she was still talking to Lily. P/SS says that Lily and Petunia hadn't talked for several years. At this point, Dudley and Harry were about 1 1/2 old. Several years indicates at least two, putting the Dementors at Azkaban before Harry was born, and definitely during VWI.

Chris. - Sep 11, 2004 3:06 pm (#642 of 1326)
But it wouldn't take much for Voldemort to capture some Dementors and set them after people.

Choices - Sep 11, 2004 6:27 pm (#643 of 1326)
I would think that "capturing" a Dementor would be something like "capturing" a ghost - how would you hold it? Who would want to?

Jessalynn Quirky - Sep 11, 2004 6:35 pm (#644 of 1326)
Good point, Choices--who would want to hold it? *shiver*

However, you'd have to hold it still somehow--what's keeping the dementors in Azkaban instead of seeking new, fresh prey elsewhere? Perhaps they have a special department in the MoM that uses Patronus Charms to keep the dementor population in check?

Another scary thought (hate it when I think of these): Do dementors breed or do they just multiply? *shudder*

Probably should take this to the dementor thread.....

Solitaire - Sep 11, 2004 10:34 pm (#645 of 1326)
The Lexicon info on Lily says she and James were married right out of Hogwarts--which means they were 17 or 18--and went to work for the Order.

If James and Lily were not yet married when Petunia overheard this conversation (and keep in mind that she may just have said that to provide a reason to Vernon for having known about them; it may not have been true), James and Lily would probably still have been in school.

I have a very strong suspicion that Lily's parents may have been murdered by either Voldemort or his DEs sometime in the first year or so after James and Lily were married. If this is so, it might account for--or at least have contributed to--the estrangement between the sisters. The funeral, if there was one, would probably have been the last time they saw each other before Lily died.

Other ways Petunia might have known about Dementors include seeing one herself ... hearing that they were keeping the DEs in prison ... etc.

Solitaire

EDIT: Popkin has an excellent post on the Dementor thread in which she speculates on how a Dementor is created. Check it out!

S.E. Jones - Sep 12, 2004 1:09 am (#646 of 1326)
...what's keeping the dementors in Azkaban instead of seeking new, fresh prey elsewhere?

I think they stay there because that is where they are assured a meal... as horrible as that thought is.

I agree that we should take any further Dementor discussion, not attached to James and Lily, to the 'Dementor' thread....

Weeny Owl - Sep 12, 2004 2:22 am (#647 of 1326)
why were Lily and James discussing Dementors? Petunia says she "overheard that boy telling her about them"

Petunia mentions that awful boy telling Lily about the dementors, and we assume she's talking about James. She might not be, though. It could have been Sirius, Pettigrew, or (heaven forbid) Snape. Chances are it was James she overheard, but with JKR's sneakiness, you just never know.

Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 12, 2004 9:31 am (#648 of 1326)
I have often wondered about this discussion. Is it possible that Lily was speaking to someone about the spy within the Order. Whoever she was talking to mentioned the Dementors in relationship to the consequences spy within the order would face as a Death Eater and servant of Voldemort.

Cheers, Nathan

sewfuninme - Sep 12, 2004 11:01 am (#649 of 1326)
Sometime back (summer)I proposed that this was the case, although it may not have been on this thread. My personal favorite for who the "nasty boy" might be is Sirius. He wouldn't have been terribly nice to Lily's family, particularly if he got the impression that he wasn't liked because he was a wizard. Petunia would absolutely have rubbed him the wrong way with her anti-wizard attitude. After all, he, Sirius, was very important as a full-blooded, powerful wizard.

I think that it could be either James or Sirius. While both could have been described as "that nasty boy", I will admit that because JKR used the word "that" a stronger argument could be made for it being James. I just like the Sirius theory because it would be an interesting twist if it were Sirius. I could come up with all sorts of possibilities. Best stop now, before I start making up stories for fan fiction.

It could also have been Snape, but I just don't see where he would have had the contact opportunity with Petunia.

Paulus Maximus - Sep 12, 2004 11:45 am (#650 of 1326)
If Petunia remembered the conversation about dementors guarding Azkaban, and she heard that one of Lily's friends was named Sirius Black, then naturally she would remember the name when Sirius broke out of Azkaban, and when the breakout was reported on muggle news.

Yet if she did, then she did much better at hiding the memory than when Harry mentioned the dementors.

More likely Petunia didn't know that Lily's friend was named Sirius Black.

Mona on Thu May 12, 2011 12:11 am

Choices - Sep 12, 2004 6:01 pm (#651 of 1326)
I think it was James telling her and I think maybe because she is supposedly Muggle-born, she may not have known much about the WW - just like Harry was ignorant of things when he first found out he was a wizard and went to Hogwarts. James, from a wizard family, knew about Dementors and Lily did not, so he explained them to her.

sewfuninme - Sep 13, 2004 9:46 am (#652 of 1326)
Good point Paulus. It doesn't seem as if she recognized the Sirius Black and it isn't one easily forgotten.

Weeny Owl - Sep 13, 2004 12:16 pm (#653 of 1326)
It probably was James, but Harry asked her if she meant his parents, and she wouldn't answer which is why I'm not totally convinced it was James.

S.E. Jones - Sep 13, 2004 1:35 pm (#654 of 1326)
Aren't there a few times where she doesn't answer, though. I mean, like about what James did for a living. She went years pretending her own sister didn't even exist. And, the Dursleys are known for ignoring Harry, so her ignoring him when he calls her on something related to magic isn't really that odd.....

Weeny Owl - Sep 13, 2004 1:45 pm (#655 of 1326)
You're probably right, Sarah, but I did find the phrasing odd.

S.E. Jones - Sep 13, 2004 2:07 pm (#656 of 1326)
Has Petunia ever said Lily or James's name? Lily's her own sister and I can't recall Petunia ever referring to her as anything except "her" or "my dratted sister".

DJ Evans - Sep 13, 2004 4:34 pm (#657 of 1326)
Hmmmm, now that you've mentioned it, I can't recall Petunia ever saying their names either!!! Like she can keep them at a distance -- give them no value -- if she doesn't "put" a name to them. Good catch there!!! Come to think of it, has Petunia ever said a name of "anyone" in the Wizardry World?

Later, Deb

Paulus Maximus - Sep 13, 2004 4:54 pm (#658 of 1326)
Well, Vernon mispronounced Voldemort a few times, for whatever that's worth.

Oh, and Dementors.

And Petunia mentioned Azkaban, but that's a place, not a person.

Odd thing to remember, but then again, it might reassure Petunia to know that the Wizards do, in fact, have a prison system...

Weeny Owl - Sep 13, 2004 8:34 pm (#659 of 1326)
I agree with Deb... definitely a good catch, Sarah.

Good Evans - Sep 16, 2004 12:05 pm (#660 of 1326)
I've been offsite since I posted the Q - I've just caught up! I thought it very odd that petunia could remember the details of the conversation, either it was of momentous importanace or she is lying and she knows about Dementors through other means. i wondered if it was first hand experience and this could be a reason that she did not take her place in the wizard world (9if indeed that theory is correct!) OR had the potters *(snr) been killed by dementors and was James explaining about where they normally are. I was hoping someone might come up with a theory and both of these have been hinted at. I also like the theory that maybe it wasnt James as pet does not confirm... But I think it was anyway. any more thoughts?

sorry about typo's delete playing up again!

tracie1976 - Sep 19, 2004 4:28 pm (#661 of 1326)
Sorry if this was said or not but I found it extremely interesting.

Why Harry's mother's name is Lily. In a dream dictionary they have the following:

Lily: A lily may be a symbol of new life; life after death (which is why white lilies are associated with funerals.)

Her death, became a protection for Harry who could still live hence the name. Great choice for Harry's mother's name.

Source: A Dictionary of Dream Symbols With an Introduction To Dream Psychology by Eric Ackroyd

El Cronista de Salem - Sep 20, 2004 8:37 am (#662 of 1326)
When someone ask to JKR he/she should ask not what was the job of the potters... the question is: Were Aurors the Potters? We could do a lot of theories with the answer... Only a mysterius "Maybe" could serve!

Chris. - Sep 20, 2004 8:46 am (#663 of 1326)
I, too, would like to know the Potter's occupations. I would prefer James to be an Auror.

El Cronista de Salem - Sep 20, 2004 8:48 am (#664 of 1326)
I think that they were Aurors, but I would preffer a surprise.

Chris. - Sep 20, 2004 8:52 am (#665 of 1326)
Perhaps Lily worked in the Department of Mysteries.

Phoenix song - Sep 20, 2004 10:17 am (#666 of 1326)
I can't quote the passage, (sorry, time limits and all), but I believe that Harry had a dream in which his parents weren't speaking. Or maybe they were covering their mouths? It's been too long since I've read it to know it by heart. Anyway, that would seem to indicate that it was possible that they may have been "unspeakables".

Barbie

Jessalynn Quirky - Sep 20, 2004 3:12 pm (#667 of 1326)
That's kind of funny, actually.....

Solitaire - Sep 20, 2004 4:23 pm (#668 of 1326)
I believe Rowling said we will find out in book 6 what James and Lily did for the Order. I sure hope she gets a move on! Accio, Book 6!!

Phoenix song - Sep 20, 2004 10:18 pm (#669 of 1326)
Okay! I've finally found the passage that I referred to in my earlier post. "Harry had a troubled night's sleep. His parents wove in and out of his dreams, never speaking." (OoP, Ch. 10, pg. 179, U.S. hardback ed.)

Since Harry's dreams are often prophetic or informative, doesn't it seem as if his dream is telling him that his parents were "unspeakables". It would seem particularly fitting since book 5 deals so much with the Department of Mysteries. What do you think?

Barbie

TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 21, 2004 5:13 am (#670 of 1326)
I think it could be a clue as to James and Lily's occupations, considering it's not until Chap. 24, pp.539 US HB ed., that Harry finds out what unspeakables are:

"So what's in the Department of Mysteries?" Harry asked Ron. "Has your dad ever mentioned anything about it?" "I know they call the people who work in there "Unspeakables"," said Ron, frowning. "Because no one really seems to know what they do - weird place to have a weapon."

If Harry's dreams are prophetic, and I'm not sure they are, then it would logically would follow that a later dream would also be true.

OoP Chap 26, pp 577 "He dreamed that Neville and Professor Sprout were waltzing around the Room of Requirement while Professor McGonagall played the bagpipes." That one I'd like to see come true. Although now I think I'm dreaming I'm posting on another thread, one more suitable for dreams. :-)

El Cronista de Salem - Sep 21, 2004 8:31 am (#671 of 1326)
And if... could exist the Charm Inventor Profession? Maybe it exist! It could be the Lily's profession, and maybe the same that Mrs. Lovegood.

Phoenix song - Sep 21, 2004 12:40 pm (#672 of 1326)
TBE: Maybe prophetic isn't the most appropriate word. Maybe I should have said that Harry's dreams seem to be integral to the story , intuitive, informative, or just important.

Harry actually has a little clue in the GoF regarding unspeakables.
Mr. Weasley: "...they're Unspeakables...From the Department of Mysteries, top secret, no idea what they get up to." (GoF, Ch 7, pg. 86)

I think that Harry's dream is a clue that his parents were unspeakables. It seems fitting that he would begin to gather clues regarding their occupations as he begins to think about his own career after school.

Barbie

TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 21, 2004 2:07 pm (#673 of 1326)
Dang, and I liked my prophetic version better :-) I did forget his conversation with Mr Weasley in GoF. Yes, I do think it maybe a clue as to his parents careers. But if I right now if I were Harry, I'd be more wrapped up in Sirius's death and wondering if I'd live long enough to have a career.

I know what it is, I'm stuck in between book 5 and book 6! I haven't given much thought to life after Voldie.
...toddles off banging self in head with empty coffee cup..."Never post before coffee, Never post..."
I do hope this dream comes true though!

OoP Chap 26, pp 577 "He dreamed that Neville and Professor Sprout were waltzing around the Room of Requirement while Professor McGonagall played the bagpipes."

Phoenix song - Sep 21, 2004 7:03 pm (#674 of 1326)
TBE: I've asked a question in regards to your post about the bagpipes. However, I moved it to the "Things that struck you as odd" thread. (I'm too afraid of being "bounced".)

You're right in that Harry must survive past Voldemort before he considers his career. I think that it would be great if he could follow in his parents' career paths.

Barbie

Jessalynn Quirky - Sep 22, 2004 2:45 pm (#675 of 1326)
Yes, that would be great to see Harry after Hogwarts becoming an Unspeakable.....or DADA teacher. Too bad JKR said no books after Book 7......

S.E. Jones - Sep 22, 2004 3:20 pm (#676 of 1326)
I can't see Harry following his parents, assuming they were Unspeakable, because he has memories of Sirius dying in the DoM and wouldn't be comfortable working in the area where his godfather died....

Choices - Sep 22, 2004 6:18 pm (#677 of 1326)
I don't think the Potters were Aurors as we learned it takes about three years of additional training after Hogwarts to become an Auror and the Potters were married and had Harry within about two years after leaving Hogwarts. They really didn't have much time to become Aurors before they died.

sewfuninme - Sep 23, 2004 10:27 am (#678 of 1326)
Excellent point Choices. I had not thought of that. Aurors was my first speculation, now I'll have to consider other professions. Although, they could have still been in school. It is not unusual for college students to have children, even at 18 or 20. Not typical, but far from unheard of. James could have afforded it with his family's wealth.

Good Evans - Sep 23, 2004 10:42 am (#679 of 1326)
I assumed the Potters were in thier mid twenties, not late teens when they had Harry, I have no evidence but I assumed Sirius and Lupin were late thirties now which would make them early mid twenties when Harry was born. I still think they could have been Aurors, but I favour the unspeakable / ministry ideas more. As I say no proof, just my thoughts.

Phoenix song - Sep 23, 2004 12:21 pm (#680 of 1326)
Choices: "I don't think the Potters were Aurors as we learned it takes about three years of additional training after Hogwarts to become an Auror and the Potters were married and had Harry within about two years after leaving Hogwarts. They really didn't have much time to become Aurors before they died."

Are we ever really told exactly how long after they left school that they had Harry? Isn't it something like, they married right after school, but not given exactly how long. (Time being a relevant thing, after all.)

I do think that the dream foreshadows Harry finding out that his parents were "unspeakables".

Barbie

sewfuninme - Sep 25, 2004 3:43 pm (#681 of 1326)
I just checked the Lexicon, and Harry was born in 1980, two years after James and Lily left Hogwarts in 1978.

Jessalynn Quirky - Sep 25, 2004 4:08 pm (#682 of 1326)
So Lily and James would have been 19 when Harry was born (provided they were both seventeen when leaving school)

Do you have to go through Auror training to become an Unspeakable? They sort of strike me as wizard scientists, not really fighters.

Phoenix song - Sep 25, 2004 4:26 pm (#683 of 1326)
I don't think that you have to have auror training to be an unspeakable. This timeline would fit in well with them becoming unspeakables and not aurors, as auror training would take additional time. Good job finding the information, I wasn't sure where to look. There's so many details out there!

Barbie

Choices - Sep 26, 2004 9:53 am (#684 of 1326)
Do we know for sure that the Potters even worked? They married and had Harry in the first two years they were out of school. They left Harry quite a bit of gold in the Gringotts vault, so perhaps they were wealthy and didn't have to work. Perhaps they just did work for the Order and actively fought Voldemort and nothing else. They died so young - probably before their 22nd birthdays.

Phoenix song - Sep 26, 2004 10:35 am (#685 of 1326)
Choices: "What did James and Lily Potter do when they were alive? Well, I can't go into too much detail, because you're going to find out in future books. But James inherited plenty of money, so he didn't need a well-paid profession. You'll find out more about both Harry's parents later." AOL Online Chat Transcript, October 19, 2000 found on [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

JKR saying that James didn't need a well-paid profession seems to indicate to me that he did have a job, but that it wasn't a well paying job. We know from Arthur that the MoM doesn't pay well, so I've taken this to support the theory that the Potters were "Unspeakables."

Barbie

vball man - Sep 26, 2004 9:25 pm (#686 of 1326)
James's job? Well, at one time he was a "Purveyor of Aids to Magical Mischief-Makers."

But that was while he was in school.

Phoenix song - Sep 26, 2004 9:30 pm (#687 of 1326)
vball man: You're absolutely right, of course! He was the historical mentor for Gred and Forge!

Barbie

EDIT: Is your puppy a corgie? Isn't that the Queen's type of dog? Sorry if I'm wrong or if I've spelled it incorrectly. Just curious!

ex-FAHgeek - Sep 27, 2004 7:47 am (#688 of 1326)
---quote--- JKR saying that James didn't need a well-paid profession seems to indicate to me that he did have a job, but that it wasn't a well paying job. ---end quote---

I always assumed that said job was working for the Order. It's potentially a full-time occupation, and entirely voluntary - no pay.

Phoenix song - Sep 27, 2004 9:33 am (#689 of 1326)
But wouldn't it be more beneficial for them to work for the order while performing normal duties? For example, Molly doesn't have an occupation, so her job is mostly to help clean and organize the headquarters for the Order. Sirius doesn't have a job (for obvious reasons) so he can't be much of a help ordinarily either. But Arthur, Kingsley, Tonks and the others in the ministry are able to go about their normal lives and report (spy) back to the order. They are able to come across information that they would not get if they were waiting at headquarters for the next battle. Being in the normal wizarding world gives the Order an extra set of eyes and ears to be more attune to what is happening. Does that make any sense?

Barbie

Jessalynn Quirky - Sep 27, 2004 3:01 pm (#690 of 1326)
Yes it does. If it's true that Lily and James were Unspeakables, what better place to get info for the Order?

and remember, Dumbledore IS the Giant Squid! ;-)

Solitaire - Sep 27, 2004 9:15 pm (#691 of 1326)
The fact that the Potters "thrice defied" Voldemort makes it seem to me like they were probably out and about, "in the thick of the battle," actively working against Voldemort and the DEs. Well, before Harry came along, anyway. I get the idea that Unspeakables are more or less isolated from the rest of the WW. Not so?

Solitaire

Phoenix song - Sep 27, 2004 10:15 pm (#692 of 1326)
I don't think that anybody really knows what function the Unspeakables perform. The only clue as to them being Unspeakables, as far as I know, is the dream that Harry had in which they floated in and out without ever speaking. It seems symbolic, but might not be. The not speaking could also deal with them having secrets that are not related to their occupations. We do know that they seem to have been very talented magically. (From the remembrances of other wizards/witches AND from the fact that they defied Voldemort three times.) I suppose that they could have had their pick of professions.

Barbie

Rosie - Sep 28, 2004 2:51 am (#693 of 1326)
A Proposed Succession of Events leading up to James’ and Lily’s Death

Neville and Harry are born

Aug The Prophecy told to Dumbledore Partly overheard by a Death Eater – I think this was Snape. I believe that he was student teacher at the time (the Perfect cover for a DE)

Sept Close matches to the Prophecy found by the Order and the DEs – the Potters and the Longbottoms both have children born end of July and have defiled Voldemort twice. The Order Of the Phoenix starts a watch over Harry and Neville as it is their lives (not their the Parents) that is the most in danger.

Oct DEs and V have a run in with the Aurors – the Longbottoms defile Voldemort yet again. Now the Prophecy points to the Longbottoms – DEs try to attack the Longbottoms family home to get Neville for V. Maybe this is when grandfather Longbottom dies (among others the Protecting the Longbottoms). Longbottoms ask D for help and is the Protected by Fiedulus Charm with D as Secret Keeper.

Nov V very angry cannot find the Longbottoms. However decides to go after the Potters as he secretly thinks the Prophecy refers to Harry (V knows that ‘Mudbloods and Halfbreeds’ tend to be more the powderful as he is one himself!) Do both James’ and Lily’s Parents die about this time as V thinks that where Harry is hidden? V gets hold of Pettigrew. Probably told of his weak character by Snape. Pettigrew tells V how to find the Potters (are they hard to find because they are ‘Unspeakables’?). V hopes to get the whereabouts of Harry from his Parents.

Dec V finds the Potters and is defiled by them. Now two families match the Prophecy. The Potters relising they have a spy ask D for help. The Fiedulus Charm is the preformed with Pettigrew as SK! Pettigrew does not tell V straight away of this but does carry on spying for V on the O[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] About the same time Snape joins the Order and starts spying on the DEs (why?)

October (a year later) After chasing all other avenues (Lupin, Black?), V presses Pettigrew for info and finds out that he is the SK. Goes to Godric’s Hollow, probably taking Pettigrew with him – would you trust someone who has held both very important info from you for a year?! Pettigrew manages to escape from the burning ruin of Godric’s Hollow (I think that this is a house not a village) and runs into Hadrid. (Hadrid being on watch that night for the Order). Tells Hadrid that the Potters are dead and that he is going after the ‘one who betrayed them’. Hadrid hears a baby crying and rescues Harry, tells D by means of his magic mirror (like the one Black gave to Harry). D not wanting to believe that Black betrayed the Potters does not tell anyone yet that he was their SK (as he believed at the time, having never been informed of the swap).

Phoenix song - Sep 28, 2004 8:43 am (#694 of 1326)
Rosie: I think that you've made a very convincing time line of what could have occurred during the time leading up to the Potter's murders. I don't believe that the Longbottoms were attacked first, though. I think, according to Dumbledore's assessment, that Voldemort considered Harry to be the biggest threat. I think that he came after Harry first and was going to take Neville out second (as a precaution). He was "mistified" (chuckle, chuckle) as was unable to complete his plan.

I also don't think that the Potter's used Pettigrew for a long time before Voldemort descended on Godric's Hollow. Sirius seemed to indicate that Pettigrew couldn't wait to "hand the Potters over to Voldemort." It would seem as if he'd be the type to fall over himself to better his position with Voldemort. He wouldn't have likely waited to let him know. I think that Pettigrew was with Voldemort at the time because he wanted to "bask in the praise" that he felt was due him.

Barbie

rambkowalczyk - Sep 28, 2004 9:05 am (#695 of 1326)
I think it also says in book 3, that a week after the charm was placed, the Potters were killed. It seems the question to be asked is why did it take over a year from when prophecy was uttered to the death of the Potters.

Rosie, you might have the right idea that at the time the prophecy was given no one had three times defied Voldemort.

Choices - Sep 28, 2004 9:41 am (#696 of 1326)
I always thought that in that dream where his parents don't speak, it was just because Harry had very little memory of his parents voices other than his Mom's screams and pleas as Voldemort gets ready to AK Harry. He was too young to really remember what they sounded like, so in his dream they are silent.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 28, 2004 9:53 am (#697 of 1326)
(I think that this is a house not a village)... I have to disagree with that.

Chap 1 SS - "What they're saying," she pressed on, "is that last night Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow. If was a house named like Grimmuld Place, shouldn't have said "at" instead of "in"?

From the Lexicon - In the mid-1300s, Godric's Hollow was the home of Bowman Wright, the inventor of the Golden Snitch (QA).

From the Lex concerning JKR - According to published reports, Rowling had direct input into the scene in the first film. If so, we can glean the following facts:

Lily and James were living as Muggles in a two story cottage We never see James in the final confrontation, which adds fire to some of the other speculations about who was actually there. As Voldemort strides toward the cottage, he appears to be alone

Seems like a village as opposed to a old grand styled named manorhouse.

Jessalynn Quirky - Sep 28, 2004 2:37 pm (#698 of 1326)
Although, I can definitely see them in a mansion of some sort. We know James inheirited a lot of money, so they probably didn't live in a Burrow-type house that looks like magic is holding it up. Come to think of it, it probably is!

Catherine - Sep 28, 2004 2:47 pm (#699 of 1326)
The only clue as to them being Unspeakables, as far as I know, is the dream that Harry had in which they floated in and out without ever speaking. --Phoenix Song

Barbie, I must be missing something. Could you be a little more specific about this?

I do, however think it entirely possible that James and/or Lily was employed by the Ministry. Voldemort was known for trying to infiltrate the Ministry, so that would give James and Lily a "reason" to defy him.

Solitaire - Sep 28, 2004 10:13 pm (#700 of 1326)
Could defying him simply mean escaping him? I got that impression when Dumbledore told Harry (OotP, p 842, US ed.) ... "He chose, not the pureblood ... but the half-blood, like himself. He saw himself in you before he had ever seen you, and in marking you with that scar, he did not kill you, as he intended, but gave you powers, and a future, which have fitted you to escape him not once, but four times so far--something that neither your parents, nor Neville's parents, ever achieved." It seems that the word defy is being used--by Dumbledore, at least--to mean escape.

If the Potters & the Longbottoms knew about the Prophecy, they would have certainly gone into hiding as soon as--and possibly even before--Harry and Neville were born. I would imagine that as the murders continued and it became apparent that there was a spy within the Order, the Potters (and possibly even the Longbottoms--we don't know) agreed to follow Dumbledore's advice to hide under the Fidelius Charm.

I got the idea--as someone said a few posts back--that very little time had passed between casting the charm and the betrayal ... possibly less than a month.

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