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Log inI have figured out Cornelius Fudge's dirty little secret!
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I have figured out Cornelius Fudge's dirty little secret!
Mona Sat May 14, 2011 12:02 am
Jimmy Bell - Mar 1, 2003 11:37 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Jan 12, 2006 9:37 am
As I was on Neville Can Clear Sirius' Name to the Ministry I had a revelation. So I am pasting my argument to this thread so everyone finds out Fudge's dirty little secret.
WAIT! I JUST HAD A REVELATION! I'm a little excited here. It's all logic. Deep breaths ... I haven't worked out all the details yet, so I'm going to need some help, but here goes.
We know Fudge was the Junior Minister of Magical Catastrophes when Black caught Pettigrew and the Ministry caught Black. We know that Fudge didn't really rise to power until after Crouch's demise. We know Fudge rose in the field of dealing with magical emergencies.
Get this. Fudge is ambitious, right? Of course he is. Everyone thought Crouch was going to be Minister of Magic. Well, let's say Fudge is the first on the scene of the torture of the Longbottoms just as he was first on the scene of Black's arrest.
He finds young Barty Crouch on the scene of the Longbottom's torture and it hits him. Here is the opportunity to screw the one person standing between him and the position of Minister of Magic - Barty Crouch, Sr. He stuns young Crouch and the squad of Hit Wizards go after the Lestranges and the other Death Eater.
Edited by Kip Carter Jan 12, 2006 9:37 am
As I was on Neville Can Clear Sirius' Name to the Ministry I had a revelation. So I am pasting my argument to this thread so everyone finds out Fudge's dirty little secret.
WAIT! I JUST HAD A REVELATION! I'm a little excited here. It's all logic. Deep breaths ... I haven't worked out all the details yet, so I'm going to need some help, but here goes.
We know Fudge was the Junior Minister of Magical Catastrophes when Black caught Pettigrew and the Ministry caught Black. We know that Fudge didn't really rise to power until after Crouch's demise. We know Fudge rose in the field of dealing with magical emergencies.
Get this. Fudge is ambitious, right? Of course he is. Everyone thought Crouch was going to be Minister of Magic. Well, let's say Fudge is the first on the scene of the torture of the Longbottoms just as he was first on the scene of Black's arrest.
He finds young Barty Crouch on the scene of the Longbottom's torture and it hits him. Here is the opportunity to screw the one person standing between him and the position of Minister of Magic - Barty Crouch, Sr. He stuns young Crouch and the squad of Hit Wizards go after the Lestranges and the other Death Eater.
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Mona Sat May 14, 2011 12:04 am
Jimmy Bell - Mar 1, 2003 11:40 pm (#1 of 110)
Suddenly little Neville Longbottom toddles out and says that Crouch was not considered worthy enough by his fellow Death Eaters to be involved in the actual torture. He was guarding outside and ran in to warn the other three that the Hit Wizards were coming for them. Fudge sees that for the reaction of hatred against Crouch to take effect people must believe Crouch Jr. was involved in the act of torture.
He relieves Neville of his memory of the event, overdoing the Memory Charm in his excitement of having a shot at Minister of Magic.
The plan works perfectly. Crouch Sr. falls from favor. Cornelius Fudge believes that Crouch Jr. has died. Cornelius Fudge gets the Minister of Magic job. Everything is going smoothly until on a trip to Hogwarts he finds out that Dumbledore has captured young Barty Crouch. Fudge panics. He thought young Crouch was dead and nobody would ever figure out that Neville had been Memory Charmed!
He panics. What if in the investigation of Crouch Jr.'s crimes, past and present, he mentions that Neville witnessed the fact that he was not involved in the actual torture? What if the Ministry restores Neville's memory and he informs them that it was Fudge, not the Death Eaters, who put a Memory Charm on him? He would be done for. He might even be sent to Azkaban for obstruction of justice. He must bury the evidence.
There are two possible ways of burying the evidence - killing Neville or Crouch Jr. So he summons the Dementor and instructs it to Kiss Crouch. It can't communicate that he told it to do that. He pretends it was an accident.
Then he panics again. He finds out that Dumbledore questioned Crouch already. Had Dumbledore found out that Neville had been a witness to the Longbottoms' torture? He decided that the best plan would be to deny vehementently that the man had a single grain of sanity.
Jimmy Bell - Mar 1, 2003 11:43 pm (#2 of 110)
Down with Fudge! How dare he damage Neville's memory and manipulate public opinion and obstruct justice! Shut him up in Azkaban 'as a precaution'. When Voldemort frees Azkaban and gets his hands on Fudge, who had helped imprison Death Eaters as a Minister of Magical Catastrophes, that will teach Fudge a lesson he won't forget!
W J - Mar 2, 2003 12:06 am (#3 of 110)
Jimmy Bell, you're brilliant.
Dumbledore II - Mar 2, 2003 3:44 am (#4 of 110)
This is the first reasonable theory I've read in months in here. I really like it and it makes sense.
Asktqa - Mar 2, 2003 5:27 am (#5 of 110)
Great theory! That links everything together and as said above, makes complete sense. Fudge could also be denying to himself that Voldemort has come back because he doesn't want to think about the fact he'd killed a very important witness for his own ends.
Olivia Wood - Mar 2, 2003 5:43 am (#6 of 110)
Finally something Fudge-related I can agree with.
zeuspro - Mar 2, 2003 6:20 am (#7 of 110)
if crouch was only a junior ministor why would he be thinking that by getting rid of Crouch he would become minister of magic?, there is no way he would be promoted straight from junior minister tMinister of magic.
W J - Mar 2, 2003 7:17 am (#8 of 110)
zeuspro,
Fudge was was a junior member of Department of Magical Catastrophes unit in MoM and apparently he was high enough up or in a position to be promoted to Minister of Magic because that is exactly what happened.
It is true that they wanted Dumbledore to take the job but since he would not, they promoted Fudge instead. Check the Lexicon for more information about Fudge.
Penny Lane. - Mar 2, 2003 7:19 am (#9 of 110)
I'm confused about one thing. What did Neville have to do with anything? Wasn't he a toddler at the time? Would his parents really have him do such a dangerous job as a child? Or am I just reading it incorrectly? Other then that I think it does make sense that Crouch Jr. would have a secret relating to Fudge and thats why he's so adamant that Voldemort did not come back.
On a side note, I was re-reading PoA last night and I was going over the scence at the 3 broomsticks bar. Fudge says something to the effect of "I don't want to think about how quickly Voldemort will rise to power again once he has his right hand man back" It makes me wonder why he was so sure that Voldemort was going to rise back with Sirus, but not anyone else. I just have this feeling that Fudge's lack of ... whatever, doesn't have to do just with his position, but something else. Something like a secret, much like this one.
W J - Mar 2, 2003 7:25 am (#10 of 110)
Edited by Mar 2, 2003 6:26 am
CPennyLane, you misunderstood. Neville had no "job". His parents had just been tortured and he witnessed it. Crouch was guarding outside, not Neville if that is what you thought.
Edit: Also, Neville was between the ages of 3 and 6 when his parents were tortured, not a toddler.
Penny Lane. - Mar 2, 2003 7:54 am (#11 of 110)
OHHHH!!! I get it now.. Wow, took me a minute to figure that one out. But then how would Neville know that Crouch wasn't considered worthy? They probably needed someone to guard the door and Crouch was the youngest, how would Neville know that?
W J - where does it say that Neville was between 3 and 6?
W J - Mar 2, 2003 8:07 am (#12 of 110)
Harry was over a year old when his parents died. Neville is the same age.
The books say that the MoM had rounded up most of the DEs and it is stated that Moody took 6 months each tracking down a couple of them. Dumbledore said people were feeling safe again and that is why everyone was so angry and scared when Neville's parents were tortured.
So it is reasonable to assume that 2 or more years had passed when Neville's parents were tortured and that would make Neville at least 3 years old, maybe older.
W J - Mar 2, 2003 8:11 am (#13 of 110)
Jimmy Bell is just saying that Neville told Fudge that Crouch Jr. was the watch person while the others tortured the Longbottoms. Fudge assumes that Crouch Jr. was not worthy, etc.
Jimmy did not word it for perfect clarity, but I think we understand what he meant.
Liz Mann - Mar 2, 2003 11:18 am (#14 of 110)
Great theory, Jimmy! Makes perfect sense!
Istari Jones - Mar 2, 2003 11:31 am (#15 of 110)
Bloody Brilliant, Jimmy Bell! Smacks up perfectly with what Fudge is capable of. I still am real confused about this line below because Neville (I do think he could have been as young as 2, a toddler, but hey, that's me...) wouldn't have been able to say that to Fudge?Crouch? So, can you reword this for me to make it more clear? My brain just isn't working well today
"Suddenly little Neville Longbottom toddles out and says that Crouch was not considered worthy enough of his fellow Death Eaters to be involved in the actual tortures. He was guarding outside and ran in to warn the other three that the Hit Wizards were coming..." Thanks a lot!
Jimmy Bell - Mar 2, 2003 11:36 am (#16 of 110)
I wasn't saying that Neville said all of that. I was saying from whatever Neville told Fudge, Fudge was able to figure that out. Sorry about not being clear enough. Oh, and to see my arguments on the fact that Neville was at least four, look at 'Neville can clear Sirius' name to the Ministry.'
Istari Jones - Mar 2, 2003 11:50 am (#17 of 110)
Oh, no, no, no ...I'm the one confused...when do you have Neville talking to Fudge...as a toddler? or later at Hogwarts?
Olivia Wood - Mar 2, 2003 11:52 am (#18 of 110)
As a toddler, right after the 'incident.'
rettoP yrraH - Mar 2, 2003 12:33 pm (#19 of 110)
Finnaly.....Sanity back to the Forum.
Lets Keep this going and not turn into a Molly/Snape/Grubby-Plank/Hagrid thread.
....And in Saying if Nevill gets past the memory charm Dumbledore will take over the MoM? I mean even Hagrid said that Fudge is a bumbler who bombards Squid with Owls every morning.
MELT THE FUDGE
Marie E. - Mar 2, 2003 1:27 pm (#20 of 110)
I have always felt there was something unnatural between Fudge and the dementors. I know, we overanalyze, we're overobsessed, yada, yada, yada. But his name is Fudge and the antidote for the dementors is chocolate!
Jimmy, I do think you have something here. Most of us are in agreement that Neville appears to be under the effect of a Memory Charm. Fudge did rise to power due to the circumstances involving his parents torture. I think you're right in assuming there is a connection.
Carina - Mar 2, 2003 8:39 pm (#21 of 110)
Yeay, Jimmy! Great Theory!
Denise P. - Mar 2, 2003 8:47 pm (#22 of 110)
Sorry to go off topic here for a second....Carina, I found another bunny for you since you seem to change them frequently.
Bunny I was looking through stuff I had uploaded at some point and found this one.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread
Carina - Mar 2, 2003 8:54 pm (#23 of 110)
Thanks, Denise!
Genipher - Mar 2, 2003 9:28 pm (#24 of 110)
Ok, one small thing wrong with this theory. Even without Fudge messing around with Nevile and whatever, Crouch Jr was still a Death Eater. This alone would be enough to send him to Azkaban even if his fellow Death Eaters didn't think he was "worthy." So whether Fudge stunned him first and let the Hit Wizards get the other ones wouldn't matter. Crouch Jr still would have been caught in the company of Death Eaters and sent to Azkaban. Plus, we have Crouch Jr's confession to Dumbledore that shows how devoted a Death Eater he was, so I think this proves that his fellow Death Eaters would have thought he was worthy.
dudley - Mar 2, 2003 10:14 pm (#25 of 110)
I like this alot! To counter Genipher, I think that Fudge was working alone when he stumbled into a group of Death Eaters. Malfoy Sr. in his infinite cunning manages to cut a deal with the young and ambitious Fudge, to get him into the MoM job. Barty agrees to being "captured" and tried for the crime - form the information given by the Longbottoms he knows is that Voldemort is alive and the rest of the Death Eaters will find and restore him... Barty will be out in no time!
Malfoy however, gets his cake and eats it. He gets someone to take the blame for the torture and has leverage over the now most popular political figure in town. Malfoy doesnt need Voldemort, he is the guy with the strings, he has the straight flush.
Look at the reaction of Moody/Crouch. He detests the other Death Eaters. They promised him that he would get away with it and yet he got sent down, they abandoned him.
dudley - Mar 2, 2003 10:26 pm (#26 of 110)
Edited by Mar 2, 2003 9:27 pm
So, what will happen next?
The memory charm on Neville gets broken when practicing memory charms in class. Neville suddenly gets reclusive, he gets better marks. When confrounted by Hermione, Neville spills the beans. Hermione writes some notes on a piece of paper, yet Neville and Hermiony get snatched by the Death Eaters, worried about Neville sudden intellegence. Harry and Ron take the piece of paper to Dumbledore, and we get the famous speech. Harry and Ron go on the warpath after Malfoy Sr. BaddaBingBaddaBoom. The end of part five.
Hedwig - Mar 3, 2003 2:47 am (#27 of 110)
Jimmy, you're brilliant! I love your theory and it actually makes sense! Awesome job!
Genipher - Mar 3, 2003 7:18 am (#28 of 110)
Edited by Mar 3, 2003 6:24 am
Dudley - I like your theory that Crouch Jr went to Azkaban willingly thinking that he would be set free in a little time, but I don't know if I buy it. When we see the trial of Crouch Jr through the Pensive, he seems VERY distraught that he is going to Azkaban. Now, this could have been all an act to make his father look bad or to make it look like he was trying to get out of going to Azkaban, but to me it seemed like he did NOT want to go.
Plus we have to remember that this story is about HARRY, not Nevile. I don't see Nevile playing as important part as what is being portrayed.
Sly Girl - Mar 3, 2003 7:22 am (#29 of 110)
I get the feeling Neville is indeed important, and not just for comical relief. He won't be as important as Harry, of course- but I think he will have his moment. We've learned more about him in the last book than we ever have, which I think means its leading up to something big.
Remember Barty Crouch Jr. is a good actor. He had everyone fooled, including Dumbledore, that he was Moody. I don't think this is a skill he learned in Azkaban, but one he had with him from the begginning, so I do think it's plausible that his actions at the trial were acting and not real. Or maybe it was a combination of the two- he really didn't want to go and used that fear to his advantage.
Kathy Lynch - Mar 3, 2003 12:56 pm (#30 of 110)
I LOVE this. How very appropriate that Fudge always seems to be the first on the scene. I especially liked the "just as a precaution" reference.
dudley - Mar 3, 2003 1:53 pm (#31 of 110)
The reason why Barty was distraught was becasue by the time he came to trial, the other Death Easters had abandoned him.
Jimmy Bell - Mar 3, 2003 3:12 pm (#32 of 110)
Edited by Mar 3, 2003 2:13 pm
Genipher, I'm not sure if I agree with dudley's Malfoy Sr. idea. I must meditate on it ... hummmmmm ... But the reason I said the other Death Eaters wouldn't have considered Crouch worthy is that they pretty much ignore him and his distraught cries in the Pensieve.
I think it was heartfelt when he said he wasn't involved. The Ministry's only witnesses who said that Crouch was involved was the Longbottoms and their evidence was 'none too reliable' according to Dumbledore.
Another reason is that Crouch said, "He asked me if I was ready to serve him. It was my dream, to serve him, to prove myself to him." I inferred from this that he had not served him or proved himself yet by taking part in the torture.
Also, Crouch was very recently graduated from Hogwarts. It is unlikely that the veteran Death Eaters considered him their equal. It's also unlikely that they performed the torture without leaving a sentry to guard against the arrival of the Hit Wizards.
Jimmy Bell - Mar 3, 2003 3:14 pm (#33 of 110)
I had Fudge stun Crouch so that he could unmask him and discover who he was.
Jimmy Bell - Mar 3, 2003 3:16 pm (#34 of 110)
Edited by Mar 3, 2003 2:16 pm
I wouldn't be surprised to find out the Lucius was involved, perhaps by blackmail ... but I must meditate on Dudley's idea. Lucius does seem to have unusual leverage with Fudge.
Olivia Wood - Mar 3, 2003 5:55 pm (#35 of 110)
I love your theory, Dudley! That gives Fudge a whole new reason not to want Voldemort back. He and Lucious Azkabanized the few Death Eaters who would have helped him, and he had Crouch Jr. kissed before he could spill the beans about their deal and/or get vengence. Now Fudge can look forward to being blackmailed not only by Malfoy but by Voldemort, too! No wonder he panicked. Ha ha ha... who thinks Percy's becoming the new Minister after Fudge dies? No? ok then...
Istari Jones - Mar 3, 2003 7:43 pm (#36 of 110)
WOW! There are some really terrific ideas on this thread! I always felt something was just wrong about Fudge, and many of these ideas make an awful lot of sense...Great job, everybody!
Jimmy Bell - Mar 3, 2003 8:10 pm (#37 of 110)
Dudley, now does your idea say that Fudge met Lucius before Black's capture? Because he was in the ministry at that time. And I don't understand what you're saying the 'deal' was between Barty Crouch, Cornelius Fudge, and Lucius Malfoy. It's possible that it's really obvious and I'm just being stupid.
Jimmy Bell - Mar 3, 2003 8:12 pm (#38 of 110)
I'm not asking for your arguments for your position just to explain it again.
dudley - Mar 3, 2003 8:21 pm (#39 of 110)
What I was saying was that Fudge, on a misson to up his popularity discided to capture the Death Eaters. He burst in on the tourtue of the Longbottoms, quickly overpowering them all. Lucius, fearfull, cuts Fudge a deal and he lets him go. Neville was the witness so his memory got wiped.
The "deal" I was talking about was a clever one by a cornered Malfoy. Fudge knew that it would be difficult to prosecute Lucius, he was far too powerfull, if he tried then he would have a powerfull enemy. Therefore, he lets him go in return for power in the government. Barty was captured to take the fall, although he did it. The Death Eaters promised Barty that he would go free when they revived Voldemort, although months went by and Barty began to panic...they had screwed him.
W J - Mar 3, 2003 8:22 pm (#40 of 110)
Blackmail is a strong word. I think Lucius would prefer to call it "optional disclosure of information."
Carina - Mar 3, 2003 8:40 pm (#41 of 110)
Lucius seems to keep very close ties to Fudge and even closer to St. Mungo's. Perhaps Lucius's donations are keeping the Longbottoms incapacitated and his and Fudge's secrets safe.
Cliff Hamaker - Mar 3, 2003 8:40 pm (#42 of 110)
Ok, just found this out. I love that Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter...
Anyway, Neville's last is Longbottom. Now, as Tolkein readers will remember Longbottom Leaf was a prized leaf from the Shire. After the Ents tore up Isengard Aragorn( I think) and the rest of his group go to Isengard and find Merry and Pippin smoking pipes. They're smoking Longbottom Leaf. From the Shire. This is the clue that the four hobbits need to find out that Saruman has taken control of the Shire.
So, the theory I have read is that Neville is important; he's important because of his last name: the clue to finding our Saruman's evil plan. Now, for everyone out there who actually READ the series and didn't get the story second-hand from your brother half-an-hour ago can correct me on any points I am wrong on.
This is for all those people who think Neville ISN'T important.
It also helps support this GREAT theory!
PaulPatil - Mar 3, 2003 8:43 pm (#43 of 110)
I've always found Fudge's integrity a bit questionable. As we all know, many of the characters' names are important clues to their personality. Fudge - as in "fudge the truth" - has always stuck me as relevant. -pp
rettoP yrraH - Mar 3, 2003 8:45 pm (#44 of 110)
HEY! You gave away the book for me! (Just Kidding
Cliff Hamaker - Mar 3, 2003 8:48 pm (#45 of 110)
Edited by Mar 3, 2003 7:48 pm
I apologize most humbly...
Am I correct though? I haven't read the books so I dont think I got the story line right.
Denise S. - Mar 3, 2003 8:56 pm (#46 of 110)
Edited by Mar 3, 2003 7:56 pm
*reaches into the fuzzy memories of reading it* Yeah, that sounds right.
And hey, don't worry, most of us here DO think Neville's important. Especially since most of us get along with his parents fairly well. ;-)
Cliff Hamaker - Mar 3, 2003 8:57 pm (#47 of 110)
Well, I know I do..... They had such great costumes on Giant Squid night....
Carina - Mar 3, 2003 9:01 pm (#48 of 110)
Sigh, unfortunately they are not too pleased with me ever since I ran over Mrs. Longbottom in the hallway with my broom.
W J - Mar 3, 2003 9:13 pm (#49 of 110)
Cliff Hamaker, Longbottom is a very common name in Lancashire which is where Neville is from based on his description of being thrown off Blackpool Pier. JKR said she read the LotR trilogy AFTER she wrote the first book so I don't think she got the name from there.
Lexicon link:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Jimmy Bell - Mar 3, 2003 9:43 pm (#50 of 110)
Edited by Mar 3, 2003 8:45 pm
I see, but if that was the situation Lucius wouldn't really have the option of blackmail ... unless he wanted to screw himself. It seems more likely to me that Lucius somehow found out about the incident and could disclose it without any danger to himself.
Suddenly little Neville Longbottom toddles out and says that Crouch was not considered worthy enough by his fellow Death Eaters to be involved in the actual torture. He was guarding outside and ran in to warn the other three that the Hit Wizards were coming for them. Fudge sees that for the reaction of hatred against Crouch to take effect people must believe Crouch Jr. was involved in the act of torture.
He relieves Neville of his memory of the event, overdoing the Memory Charm in his excitement of having a shot at Minister of Magic.
The plan works perfectly. Crouch Sr. falls from favor. Cornelius Fudge believes that Crouch Jr. has died. Cornelius Fudge gets the Minister of Magic job. Everything is going smoothly until on a trip to Hogwarts he finds out that Dumbledore has captured young Barty Crouch. Fudge panics. He thought young Crouch was dead and nobody would ever figure out that Neville had been Memory Charmed!
He panics. What if in the investigation of Crouch Jr.'s crimes, past and present, he mentions that Neville witnessed the fact that he was not involved in the actual torture? What if the Ministry restores Neville's memory and he informs them that it was Fudge, not the Death Eaters, who put a Memory Charm on him? He would be done for. He might even be sent to Azkaban for obstruction of justice. He must bury the evidence.
There are two possible ways of burying the evidence - killing Neville or Crouch Jr. So he summons the Dementor and instructs it to Kiss Crouch. It can't communicate that he told it to do that. He pretends it was an accident.
Then he panics again. He finds out that Dumbledore questioned Crouch already. Had Dumbledore found out that Neville had been a witness to the Longbottoms' torture? He decided that the best plan would be to deny vehementently that the man had a single grain of sanity.
Jimmy Bell - Mar 1, 2003 11:43 pm (#2 of 110)
Down with Fudge! How dare he damage Neville's memory and manipulate public opinion and obstruct justice! Shut him up in Azkaban 'as a precaution'. When Voldemort frees Azkaban and gets his hands on Fudge, who had helped imprison Death Eaters as a Minister of Magical Catastrophes, that will teach Fudge a lesson he won't forget!
W J - Mar 2, 2003 12:06 am (#3 of 110)
Jimmy Bell, you're brilliant.
Dumbledore II - Mar 2, 2003 3:44 am (#4 of 110)
This is the first reasonable theory I've read in months in here. I really like it and it makes sense.
Asktqa - Mar 2, 2003 5:27 am (#5 of 110)
Great theory! That links everything together and as said above, makes complete sense. Fudge could also be denying to himself that Voldemort has come back because he doesn't want to think about the fact he'd killed a very important witness for his own ends.
Olivia Wood - Mar 2, 2003 5:43 am (#6 of 110)
Finally something Fudge-related I can agree with.
zeuspro - Mar 2, 2003 6:20 am (#7 of 110)
if crouch was only a junior ministor why would he be thinking that by getting rid of Crouch he would become minister of magic?, there is no way he would be promoted straight from junior minister tMinister of magic.
W J - Mar 2, 2003 7:17 am (#8 of 110)
zeuspro,
Fudge was was a junior member of Department of Magical Catastrophes unit in MoM and apparently he was high enough up or in a position to be promoted to Minister of Magic because that is exactly what happened.
It is true that they wanted Dumbledore to take the job but since he would not, they promoted Fudge instead. Check the Lexicon for more information about Fudge.
Penny Lane. - Mar 2, 2003 7:19 am (#9 of 110)
I'm confused about one thing. What did Neville have to do with anything? Wasn't he a toddler at the time? Would his parents really have him do such a dangerous job as a child? Or am I just reading it incorrectly? Other then that I think it does make sense that Crouch Jr. would have a secret relating to Fudge and thats why he's so adamant that Voldemort did not come back.
On a side note, I was re-reading PoA last night and I was going over the scence at the 3 broomsticks bar. Fudge says something to the effect of "I don't want to think about how quickly Voldemort will rise to power again once he has his right hand man back" It makes me wonder why he was so sure that Voldemort was going to rise back with Sirus, but not anyone else. I just have this feeling that Fudge's lack of ... whatever, doesn't have to do just with his position, but something else. Something like a secret, much like this one.
W J - Mar 2, 2003 7:25 am (#10 of 110)
Edited by Mar 2, 2003 6:26 am
CPennyLane, you misunderstood. Neville had no "job". His parents had just been tortured and he witnessed it. Crouch was guarding outside, not Neville if that is what you thought.
Edit: Also, Neville was between the ages of 3 and 6 when his parents were tortured, not a toddler.
Penny Lane. - Mar 2, 2003 7:54 am (#11 of 110)
OHHHH!!! I get it now.. Wow, took me a minute to figure that one out. But then how would Neville know that Crouch wasn't considered worthy? They probably needed someone to guard the door and Crouch was the youngest, how would Neville know that?
W J - where does it say that Neville was between 3 and 6?
W J - Mar 2, 2003 8:07 am (#12 of 110)
Harry was over a year old when his parents died. Neville is the same age.
The books say that the MoM had rounded up most of the DEs and it is stated that Moody took 6 months each tracking down a couple of them. Dumbledore said people were feeling safe again and that is why everyone was so angry and scared when Neville's parents were tortured.
So it is reasonable to assume that 2 or more years had passed when Neville's parents were tortured and that would make Neville at least 3 years old, maybe older.
W J - Mar 2, 2003 8:11 am (#13 of 110)
Jimmy Bell is just saying that Neville told Fudge that Crouch Jr. was the watch person while the others tortured the Longbottoms. Fudge assumes that Crouch Jr. was not worthy, etc.
Jimmy did not word it for perfect clarity, but I think we understand what he meant.
Liz Mann - Mar 2, 2003 11:18 am (#14 of 110)
Great theory, Jimmy! Makes perfect sense!
Istari Jones - Mar 2, 2003 11:31 am (#15 of 110)
Bloody Brilliant, Jimmy Bell! Smacks up perfectly with what Fudge is capable of. I still am real confused about this line below because Neville (I do think he could have been as young as 2, a toddler, but hey, that's me...) wouldn't have been able to say that to Fudge?Crouch? So, can you reword this for me to make it more clear? My brain just isn't working well today
"Suddenly little Neville Longbottom toddles out and says that Crouch was not considered worthy enough of his fellow Death Eaters to be involved in the actual tortures. He was guarding outside and ran in to warn the other three that the Hit Wizards were coming..." Thanks a lot!
Jimmy Bell - Mar 2, 2003 11:36 am (#16 of 110)
I wasn't saying that Neville said all of that. I was saying from whatever Neville told Fudge, Fudge was able to figure that out. Sorry about not being clear enough. Oh, and to see my arguments on the fact that Neville was at least four, look at 'Neville can clear Sirius' name to the Ministry.'
Istari Jones - Mar 2, 2003 11:50 am (#17 of 110)
Oh, no, no, no ...I'm the one confused...when do you have Neville talking to Fudge...as a toddler? or later at Hogwarts?
Olivia Wood - Mar 2, 2003 11:52 am (#18 of 110)
As a toddler, right after the 'incident.'
rettoP yrraH - Mar 2, 2003 12:33 pm (#19 of 110)
Finnaly.....Sanity back to the Forum.
Lets Keep this going and not turn into a Molly/Snape/Grubby-Plank/Hagrid thread.
....And in Saying if Nevill gets past the memory charm Dumbledore will take over the MoM? I mean even Hagrid said that Fudge is a bumbler who bombards Squid with Owls every morning.
MELT THE FUDGE
Marie E. - Mar 2, 2003 1:27 pm (#20 of 110)
I have always felt there was something unnatural between Fudge and the dementors. I know, we overanalyze, we're overobsessed, yada, yada, yada. But his name is Fudge and the antidote for the dementors is chocolate!
Jimmy, I do think you have something here. Most of us are in agreement that Neville appears to be under the effect of a Memory Charm. Fudge did rise to power due to the circumstances involving his parents torture. I think you're right in assuming there is a connection.
Carina - Mar 2, 2003 8:39 pm (#21 of 110)
Yeay, Jimmy! Great Theory!
Denise P. - Mar 2, 2003 8:47 pm (#22 of 110)
Sorry to go off topic here for a second....Carina, I found another bunny for you since you seem to change them frequently.
Bunny I was looking through stuff I had uploaded at some point and found this one.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread
Carina - Mar 2, 2003 8:54 pm (#23 of 110)
Thanks, Denise!
Genipher - Mar 2, 2003 9:28 pm (#24 of 110)
Ok, one small thing wrong with this theory. Even without Fudge messing around with Nevile and whatever, Crouch Jr was still a Death Eater. This alone would be enough to send him to Azkaban even if his fellow Death Eaters didn't think he was "worthy." So whether Fudge stunned him first and let the Hit Wizards get the other ones wouldn't matter. Crouch Jr still would have been caught in the company of Death Eaters and sent to Azkaban. Plus, we have Crouch Jr's confession to Dumbledore that shows how devoted a Death Eater he was, so I think this proves that his fellow Death Eaters would have thought he was worthy.
dudley - Mar 2, 2003 10:14 pm (#25 of 110)
I like this alot! To counter Genipher, I think that Fudge was working alone when he stumbled into a group of Death Eaters. Malfoy Sr. in his infinite cunning manages to cut a deal with the young and ambitious Fudge, to get him into the MoM job. Barty agrees to being "captured" and tried for the crime - form the information given by the Longbottoms he knows is that Voldemort is alive and the rest of the Death Eaters will find and restore him... Barty will be out in no time!
Malfoy however, gets his cake and eats it. He gets someone to take the blame for the torture and has leverage over the now most popular political figure in town. Malfoy doesnt need Voldemort, he is the guy with the strings, he has the straight flush.
Look at the reaction of Moody/Crouch. He detests the other Death Eaters. They promised him that he would get away with it and yet he got sent down, they abandoned him.
dudley - Mar 2, 2003 10:26 pm (#26 of 110)
Edited by Mar 2, 2003 9:27 pm
So, what will happen next?
The memory charm on Neville gets broken when practicing memory charms in class. Neville suddenly gets reclusive, he gets better marks. When confrounted by Hermione, Neville spills the beans. Hermione writes some notes on a piece of paper, yet Neville and Hermiony get snatched by the Death Eaters, worried about Neville sudden intellegence. Harry and Ron take the piece of paper to Dumbledore, and we get the famous speech. Harry and Ron go on the warpath after Malfoy Sr. BaddaBingBaddaBoom. The end of part five.
Hedwig - Mar 3, 2003 2:47 am (#27 of 110)
Jimmy, you're brilliant! I love your theory and it actually makes sense! Awesome job!
Genipher - Mar 3, 2003 7:18 am (#28 of 110)
Edited by Mar 3, 2003 6:24 am
Dudley - I like your theory that Crouch Jr went to Azkaban willingly thinking that he would be set free in a little time, but I don't know if I buy it. When we see the trial of Crouch Jr through the Pensive, he seems VERY distraught that he is going to Azkaban. Now, this could have been all an act to make his father look bad or to make it look like he was trying to get out of going to Azkaban, but to me it seemed like he did NOT want to go.
Plus we have to remember that this story is about HARRY, not Nevile. I don't see Nevile playing as important part as what is being portrayed.
Sly Girl - Mar 3, 2003 7:22 am (#29 of 110)
I get the feeling Neville is indeed important, and not just for comical relief. He won't be as important as Harry, of course- but I think he will have his moment. We've learned more about him in the last book than we ever have, which I think means its leading up to something big.
Remember Barty Crouch Jr. is a good actor. He had everyone fooled, including Dumbledore, that he was Moody. I don't think this is a skill he learned in Azkaban, but one he had with him from the begginning, so I do think it's plausible that his actions at the trial were acting and not real. Or maybe it was a combination of the two- he really didn't want to go and used that fear to his advantage.
Kathy Lynch - Mar 3, 2003 12:56 pm (#30 of 110)
I LOVE this. How very appropriate that Fudge always seems to be the first on the scene. I especially liked the "just as a precaution" reference.
dudley - Mar 3, 2003 1:53 pm (#31 of 110)
The reason why Barty was distraught was becasue by the time he came to trial, the other Death Easters had abandoned him.
Jimmy Bell - Mar 3, 2003 3:12 pm (#32 of 110)
Edited by Mar 3, 2003 2:13 pm
Genipher, I'm not sure if I agree with dudley's Malfoy Sr. idea. I must meditate on it ... hummmmmm ... But the reason I said the other Death Eaters wouldn't have considered Crouch worthy is that they pretty much ignore him and his distraught cries in the Pensieve.
I think it was heartfelt when he said he wasn't involved. The Ministry's only witnesses who said that Crouch was involved was the Longbottoms and their evidence was 'none too reliable' according to Dumbledore.
Another reason is that Crouch said, "He asked me if I was ready to serve him. It was my dream, to serve him, to prove myself to him." I inferred from this that he had not served him or proved himself yet by taking part in the torture.
Also, Crouch was very recently graduated from Hogwarts. It is unlikely that the veteran Death Eaters considered him their equal. It's also unlikely that they performed the torture without leaving a sentry to guard against the arrival of the Hit Wizards.
Jimmy Bell - Mar 3, 2003 3:14 pm (#33 of 110)
I had Fudge stun Crouch so that he could unmask him and discover who he was.
Jimmy Bell - Mar 3, 2003 3:16 pm (#34 of 110)
Edited by Mar 3, 2003 2:16 pm
I wouldn't be surprised to find out the Lucius was involved, perhaps by blackmail ... but I must meditate on Dudley's idea. Lucius does seem to have unusual leverage with Fudge.
Olivia Wood - Mar 3, 2003 5:55 pm (#35 of 110)
I love your theory, Dudley! That gives Fudge a whole new reason not to want Voldemort back. He and Lucious Azkabanized the few Death Eaters who would have helped him, and he had Crouch Jr. kissed before he could spill the beans about their deal and/or get vengence. Now Fudge can look forward to being blackmailed not only by Malfoy but by Voldemort, too! No wonder he panicked. Ha ha ha... who thinks Percy's becoming the new Minister after Fudge dies? No? ok then...
Istari Jones - Mar 3, 2003 7:43 pm (#36 of 110)
WOW! There are some really terrific ideas on this thread! I always felt something was just wrong about Fudge, and many of these ideas make an awful lot of sense...Great job, everybody!
Jimmy Bell - Mar 3, 2003 8:10 pm (#37 of 110)
Dudley, now does your idea say that Fudge met Lucius before Black's capture? Because he was in the ministry at that time. And I don't understand what you're saying the 'deal' was between Barty Crouch, Cornelius Fudge, and Lucius Malfoy. It's possible that it's really obvious and I'm just being stupid.
Jimmy Bell - Mar 3, 2003 8:12 pm (#38 of 110)
I'm not asking for your arguments for your position just to explain it again.
dudley - Mar 3, 2003 8:21 pm (#39 of 110)
What I was saying was that Fudge, on a misson to up his popularity discided to capture the Death Eaters. He burst in on the tourtue of the Longbottoms, quickly overpowering them all. Lucius, fearfull, cuts Fudge a deal and he lets him go. Neville was the witness so his memory got wiped.
The "deal" I was talking about was a clever one by a cornered Malfoy. Fudge knew that it would be difficult to prosecute Lucius, he was far too powerfull, if he tried then he would have a powerfull enemy. Therefore, he lets him go in return for power in the government. Barty was captured to take the fall, although he did it. The Death Eaters promised Barty that he would go free when they revived Voldemort, although months went by and Barty began to panic...they had screwed him.
W J - Mar 3, 2003 8:22 pm (#40 of 110)
Blackmail is a strong word. I think Lucius would prefer to call it "optional disclosure of information."
Carina - Mar 3, 2003 8:40 pm (#41 of 110)
Lucius seems to keep very close ties to Fudge and even closer to St. Mungo's. Perhaps Lucius's donations are keeping the Longbottoms incapacitated and his and Fudge's secrets safe.
Cliff Hamaker - Mar 3, 2003 8:40 pm (#42 of 110)
Ok, just found this out. I love that Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter...
Anyway, Neville's last is Longbottom. Now, as Tolkein readers will remember Longbottom Leaf was a prized leaf from the Shire. After the Ents tore up Isengard Aragorn( I think) and the rest of his group go to Isengard and find Merry and Pippin smoking pipes. They're smoking Longbottom Leaf. From the Shire. This is the clue that the four hobbits need to find out that Saruman has taken control of the Shire.
So, the theory I have read is that Neville is important; he's important because of his last name: the clue to finding our Saruman's evil plan. Now, for everyone out there who actually READ the series and didn't get the story second-hand from your brother half-an-hour ago can correct me on any points I am wrong on.
This is for all those people who think Neville ISN'T important.
It also helps support this GREAT theory!
PaulPatil - Mar 3, 2003 8:43 pm (#43 of 110)
I've always found Fudge's integrity a bit questionable. As we all know, many of the characters' names are important clues to their personality. Fudge - as in "fudge the truth" - has always stuck me as relevant. -pp
rettoP yrraH - Mar 3, 2003 8:45 pm (#44 of 110)
HEY! You gave away the book for me! (Just Kidding
Cliff Hamaker - Mar 3, 2003 8:48 pm (#45 of 110)
Edited by Mar 3, 2003 7:48 pm
I apologize most humbly...
Am I correct though? I haven't read the books so I dont think I got the story line right.
Denise S. - Mar 3, 2003 8:56 pm (#46 of 110)
Edited by Mar 3, 2003 7:56 pm
*reaches into the fuzzy memories of reading it* Yeah, that sounds right.
And hey, don't worry, most of us here DO think Neville's important. Especially since most of us get along with his parents fairly well. ;-)
Cliff Hamaker - Mar 3, 2003 8:57 pm (#47 of 110)
Well, I know I do..... They had such great costumes on Giant Squid night....
Carina - Mar 3, 2003 9:01 pm (#48 of 110)
Sigh, unfortunately they are not too pleased with me ever since I ran over Mrs. Longbottom in the hallway with my broom.
W J - Mar 3, 2003 9:13 pm (#49 of 110)
Cliff Hamaker, Longbottom is a very common name in Lancashire which is where Neville is from based on his description of being thrown off Blackpool Pier. JKR said she read the LotR trilogy AFTER she wrote the first book so I don't think she got the name from there.
Lexicon link:
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Jimmy Bell - Mar 3, 2003 9:43 pm (#50 of 110)
Edited by Mar 3, 2003 8:45 pm
I see, but if that was the situation Lucius wouldn't really have the option of blackmail ... unless he wanted to screw himself. It seems more likely to me that Lucius somehow found out about the incident and could disclose it without any danger to himself.
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Jimmy Bell - Mar 3, 2003 9:44 pm (#51 of 110)
But this is not part of my theory, just further speculation.
Kathy Lynch - Mar 4, 2003 7:54 am (#52 of 110)
Yeah, no offense Cliff, (and everybody) but we KNOW LotR had NO part in shaping these stories. People keep bringing up coincidental similarities, and i don't think they're valid. The whole "Wormtongue/Wormtail" thing, now this with "Longbottom," I just think we're reaching a bit here. If you really want something coincidental, there is a comic book series called "Books of Magic" that was written in the early nineties about a thirteen year old boy who is told he is the most powerful wizard in a century, has black hair and glasses, and even has a pet owl in the first issue. (Although it dies.) THOSE comparisons are a bit more obvious.
Cliff Hamaker - Mar 4, 2003 11:27 am (#53 of 110)
Not that I am questioning your argument but, where is the interview that JK said she read LotR after she wrote book one?
Kathy Lynch - Mar 4, 2003 12:56 pm (#54 of 110)
Edited by Mar 4, 2003 11:59 am
I want to say it was one of the Comic Relief interviews, but i'm not sure. What i DO know is that it's on the Lexicon somewhere. Use the search. Or just wait and i betcha WJ will pop up with a link to it pretty soon! And JKR didn't say she read them after she wrote book 1, she said she had read them once when she was about 19, but that they didn't influence her. She made it sound as if she didn't particularly love them, either. But that's just my interpretation.
Cliff Hamaker - Mar 4, 2003 8:55 pm (#55 of 110)
Well, writers write about what they know. Which is everything thing they've read, seen, touched, felt, etc. So, maybe the LOTR books weren't a consious inspiration for anything but a lot of the stuff is *a litte* too close to be coincidence. And isn't it a rule, "there are no coincidences" for HP?
Jimmy Bell - Mar 4, 2003 10:48 pm (#56 of 110)
I agree with Cliff. No offense to JKR, but the connections are obvious, the most obvious being Dementors - Ringwraiths. On the other hand, I don't think we can blatantly lift theories from Lord of the Rings. We are talking about the subconscious here.
Jimmy Bell - Mar 4, 2003 11:17 pm (#57 of 110)
Something just occured to me. If Lucius does know about Fudge's dirty little secret what would his next move be?
Kathy Lynch - Mar 5, 2003 7:55 am (#58 of 110)
I think he may very well know. That's how he keeps getting political backup for all his ill-intentioned ideas. That's how he got Hagrid locked up, that's how Lucious was able to intimidate the members of the school board to remove Dumbly with no interference. I think he's holding SOMETHING over Fudge's head. He wouldn't need to blackmail him for money, he's using him for his power. I bet that's why he STILL hasn't been raided again, even though Ron told his Dad about the secret spot under the floor TWO BOOKS AGO. Anybody thought of that yet?
W J - Mar 7, 2003 7:20 pm (#59 of 110)
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Q: Hello, I was wondering how much Tolkien inspired and influenced your writing?
JKR: Hard to say. I didn't read The Hobbit until after the first Harry book was written, though I read Lord of the Rings when I was nineteen. I think, setting aside the obvious fact that we both use myth and legend, that the similarities are fairly superficial. Tolkien created a whole new mythology, which I would never claim to have done. On the other hand, I think I have better jokes.
Cliff Hamaker - Mar 7, 2003 7:21 pm (#60 of 110)
Do we know that he hasn't been raided?
Sly Girl - Mar 8, 2003 2:40 am (#61 of 110)
On the other hand, I think I have better jokes. <<<<<
ah yes, truer words never spoken.... !
rettoP yrraH - Mar 9, 2003 1:55 pm (#62 of 110)
Yes better Jokes for sure
Carina - Mar 9, 2003 3:04 pm (#63 of 110)
Yeah, I can't imagine a "Uranus" comment in LOTR...
Cliff Hamaker - Mar 9, 2003 8:08 pm (#64 of 110)
Especially since they don't even have nine planets in that world....
Matt Allair - Mar 9, 2003 8:35 pm (#65 of 110)
Jimmy, ' Bloody Brilliant theory' as Ron might say. Bravo! Well, I have read that scholastic interview before and at least by acknowledging that JKR has read the LOTR books. No one can't entertain the possibility that the books have had a wee bit of an influence, so many years go , when she started to develop the story outline for all seven books.
Darn Jimmy, I wish I could have a bit of your reasoning that lead to such a stroke of genius!
Matt
Kathy Lynch - Mar 11, 2003 12:31 pm (#66 of 110)
Ah, i knew you'd come through, WJ! I'm telling you guys, she is the queen of the links.
timrew - Mar 11, 2003 4:07 pm (#67 of 110)
Edited by Mar 11, 2003 3:08 pm
I think that the connection between the Harry Potter books and LOTR is just the fact that they both draw on mythology to some extent. I don't think that JKR got her idea for the Dementors from Tolkien's Ringwraiths. She has said herself that the Dementors sprang from the awful depression she felt when her mother died.
As for Harry Potter having the better jokes, I'll go along with that (I'm trying to think of ONE joke in LOTR!). The film of LOTR puts in a few jokes, and I think this is a good thing. "No-one tosses a dwarf!"; the Hobbits drinking man-sized pints of beer in the Prancing Pony, etc. I think all these things enhance the book.
rettoP yrraH - Mar 11, 2003 9:28 pm (#68 of 110)
LotR light moment: Pip said 'gollum gollumm my preshissss' I laughed when he did that.
Asktqa - Mar 12, 2003 6:13 am (#69 of 110)
The whole first chapter of LOTR is quite funny. Bilbo labelling all his possesions and all. But I'm having trouble thinking of another funny moment in any of the books. The films, that's a different matter... 'Don't tell the elf'
Cliff Hamaker - Mar 12, 2003 8:00 pm (#70 of 110)
And, "That was deliberate! That was deliberate!!!"
Jimmy Bell - Mar 16, 2003 1:36 pm (#71 of 110)
Oh, man, don't get me started reciting the jokes from Lord of the Rings. Several of them are quite funny. You guys are just forgetting.
"'Gandalf,' I said, but my voice was only a whisper. Did he say, 'Hullo, Pippin, this is a pleasant surprise'? No indeed! He said, 'Get up you tomfool of a Took! Where in all this ruin is Treebeard? I want him, quick!' ... 'Treebeard, you have done much but I need more. I have about ten thousand orcs to manage.'
Jimmy Bell - Mar 16, 2003 1:42 pm (#72 of 110)
I can spout Lord of the Rings just as well as Harry Potter. I often laugh out loud at parts in Lord of the Rings. And the end invariably makes me cry. (And I'm a guy. I barely ever cry). But if you're looking for funny parts in Lord of the Rings, look for any lines passing between Gandalf and Pippin. Check out Gimli's lines in a moment of crisis and his talks with Legolas. Check out Merry waking up after the battle of the Pellennor Fields. Okay, I'll shut up before I lose control.
Denise S. - Mar 16, 2003 8:46 pm (#73 of 110)
Don't worry, Jimmy, many of us here have already lost it, whether or not it was for HP or something else. ;-)
Jimmy Bell - Apr 6, 2003 2:41 pm (#74 of 110)
Edited by Apr 6, 2003 1:41 pm
If Neville's memory is restored and Fudge is ousted as Minister of Magic, who will take his place? Arthur, Lucius, or someone else?
Sly Girl - Apr 6, 2003 3:58 pm (#75 of 110)
Lucius would be deliciously evil and would probably aide Voldemort in his quest. Arthur would probably be the just and wisest choice, but I don't think he has much of a chance. It might also be some, as of yet, unknown character.
Kevin YouBustSlug - Apr 7, 2003 5:54 pm (#76 of 110)
Jimmy Bell, you have done some very good detective work here. It would not be surprizing to find out that you are quite correct. For my part, I think that you may have overstated the case in saying "Suddenly little Neville Longbottom toddles out and says that Crouch was not considered worthy enough by his fellow Death Eaters to be involved in the actual torture. He was guarding outside and ran in to warn the other three that the Hit Wizards were coming for them." That seems a tad much for Neville to say immediately after his parents torture, when he would probably be in tears and scared half out of his mind, even if we put him at the high end of your age scale at around six years old. He might simply have pointed to Barty Crouch and said to Fudge: "That man was hiding outside." Fudge could have inferred the rest. I certainly agree that Fudge has some sort of secret and that he set the Dementor on Crouch in order to shut him up. I had, of course, noted that Fudge's name implied "fudging the truth" but I am indebted to Marie E. for pointing out that "Fudge" as a type of chocolate may be an antidote for the Dementors, which could explain his ability to converse with them without having any ill effects. Keep up the good work, all of you. This is a great thread.
Eloise Midgen - Apr 12, 2003 1:11 pm (#77 of 110)
I totally agree with all the above said. I think that Fudge is probably keeping a secret similar to the one above described. I don't know if JK would do the memory charm on Neville thing after she's already had the memory Charm on Bertha thing, but other than that, it seems very likely. After Fudge is kicked out, I think Arthur would be my first choice, then maybe Lupin.
Kevin YouBustSlug - Apr 12, 2003 3:04 pm (#78 of 110)
I see no conflict with having JKR doing the memory charm thing again. After all we have the surprize animagus thing in two books, the use of Polyjuice in two books. So why not have the memory charm introduced in book four so that we can find out in book five that Neville is under it.
Caput Draconis - Apr 12, 2003 5:28 pm (#79 of 110)
Best theory ever
Plus, Fudge outed and Lucius promoted would make for some very interesting reading. Kevin, Jimmy clarified your thoughts earlier in that he meant Neville's actions, or whatever little he may have said, would have been enough for Fudge to figure out that he knew something. This only adds to the theory, in that Fudge's secret is made all the more dirty by his panicked reaction to a scared toddler, rather than to such a concise indication of the threat young Neville represents.
Down with Fudge indeed!
Eloise Midgen - Apr 12, 2003 7:25 pm (#80 of 110)
Oh dear. A death eater as Minister of Magic. That would fix all our problems. But yes, it would make for interesting reading. I wonder how many previous Ministers of Magic were like Fudge. Have they ever had any seriously evil Ministers?
Marye Lupin - Apr 14, 2003 12:33 pm (#81 of 110)
Just out of curiosity- does it actually say in the books that Lucius works for the MOM? (I know he has a lot of influence there and its probably true, but is it ever mentioned?)
koolnkinky - Apr 14, 2003 1:53 pm (#82 of 110)
WOW! Great colaboration going on there. That is one of the best theories I have heard I can't wait to find out if you're even the teeniest bit right! Only 68 days to go! Anyone else excited? And can anyone give me the name and/or author of the book about the mysteries and mistakes made in the HP series? You know the one where they go through everything with a fine tooth comb. I think that would make some interesting reading. Thanks!
Saralinda - Apr 20, 2003 11:28 am (#83 of 110)
Edited by Apr 20, 2003 11:29 am
Another beauty of this positively delicious theory is that it puts yet another interpretation on Crouch Jr./Moody's taking Neville aside after that first DADA session. Oh cripe, he really freaked during that class, didn't he? I'd better do a quick one-on-one and make sure he hasn't suddenly remembered something inconvenient!
You folks are awesome. I am sooo impressed ... my brain is ticking into overdrive. I never made the "fudge" and "chocolate" connection, either. (Of course, just this morning, a preteen godchild clued me in to "Knockturn Alley" and "nocturnally.") Sheesh, I feel like such a squib!
:: Must ... go ... read ... books ... again ...
Denise S. - Apr 20, 2003 8:20 pm (#84 of 110)
:-0 Wow Saralinda, I hadn't thought of that at all! Wow....wow...
Jimmy Bell - Apr 23, 2003 12:09 pm (#85 of 110)
Saralinda, what are you saying was going through Crouch's mind when he chatted with Neville? Do you think he was probing Neville for possible remembrance of the event? That's very plausible.
It's always good to keep the back door open - be able to prove that you are not guilty of what you were in Azkaban for in case Voldemort and the Death Eaters go down hard.
Pinky - Apr 23, 2003 5:00 pm (#86 of 110)
I've wondered if Crouch/Moody "renewed" the obliviate spell on Neville during their private chat. Like Saralinda said, if Neville remember something, that could be a problem. The book says that Neville seemed better after his chat with Crouch/Moody. If he really had remembered something awful, forgetting it right away would definitely make him feel better. And no one ever questioned him about why he reacted the way he did in class, so he wouldn't find out that he wasn't remembering it. I wonder if this should be in a Neville thread....
shepherdess - Apr 23, 2003 5:02 pm (#87 of 110)
Edited by Apr 23, 2003 5:05 pm
I'm not Saralinda, but maybe she was saying part of the reason Crouch wanted to "chat" with Neville alone was to redo an alleged memory charm before Neville remembered to much. (I'm not sure I buy the memory charm theory.)
Pinky, you beat me to it!
Saralinda - Apr 23, 2003 5:09 pm (#88 of 110)
Well, I'm not Saralinda either, when you come right down to it -- she's my boss cat, but she lets me play her on line.
What I meant was that at the very least, Moody/Crouch Jr. could observe Neville close up and see whether he was likely to blurt out anything with a potential for danger to either Moody/Crouch Jr. or the plan in general.
Pinky - Apr 23, 2003 5:33 pm (#89 of 110)
Sorry Shepherdess! I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought of that possibility.
Saralinda, you need to post a pic of the real Saralinda!
Eloise Midgen - Apr 24, 2003 11:05 am (#90 of 110)
Edited by Apr 24, 2003 11:06 am
I'm probably just not catching something, but I need an explaination. What exactly could Neville have remembered during Moody's DADA class? If it was something about Fudge, why would Crouch/Moody care? Neville couldn't know anything about Moody being Crouch, could he? If it was something about Crouch, it was probably something that everyone already suspected/knew. And even if he remembered something new about Crouch Jr., it couldn't seriously inconvenience Moody because no one knew it was him. No one would really care because they all think he's dead. Sorry if I'm just being slow, but can someone clarify?
Saralinda - Apr 24, 2003 11:24 am (#91 of 110)
Hi, Eloise Midgen --
Honestly, I'm not sure what Neville could know, either, but I can't shake the feeling that there's still something hidden about the whole Longbottom session. Maybe the questions they were asking would have given information about their own activities? Maybe there was someone else -- or a couple someone elses -- there that we don't know about?
Remember that at the time of that first DADA lesson, Moody/Crouch doesn't know which way to jump. Like Peter Pettigrew, he seems to be what my husband calls a "Seventh Day Opportunist," jumping wherever he perceives the power to be. Winky is loose and living right there art Hogwarts. On top of that, his father is still alive and fighting the curses that bind him to his home.
Moody/Crouch is playing a dangerous game at this juncture. He has to keep his options open and protect his backside.
Jimmy Bell - Apr 24, 2003 11:44 am (#92 of 110)
Certainly it was a perfect opportunity to probe whether Neville had enough knowledge for him to prove that he didn't take part in the Cruciatus Curse. That way he could prove that he wasn't guilty of what he was in Azkaban for. He could be keeping the back door open.
On the other hand he is subjecting Moody to the Imperius Curse. So he would have to go back to Azkaban anyway. So maybe he was just trying to give Neville the Magical Water Plants of the Meditteranean Book. However, he must have been curious as to why Neville hadn't given evidence that he wasn't involved in the torture. His findings - Neville was under the effect of a powerful Memory Charm.
megfox - Apr 24, 2003 2:49 pm (#93 of 110)
Edited by Apr 24, 2003 2:51 pm
There was also a theory floating around the forum for a while about Neville being a witness to the torture of his parents, of which Crouch may have been a member of. I think its earlier in this thread, actually. He was given a memory charm as well, to protect him from the sights, and it backfired, causing him to be very forgetful and such. When Crouch saw the horror on Neville's face after performing the Unforgivables, so our theory goes, he wanted to be sure that there was nothing "shaken loose" to make him remember things that could be very...ahem...embarassing to certain people. Go check out the rest of the thread, its actually really good.
Cliff Hamaker - Apr 24, 2003 6:35 pm (#94 of 110)
Yeah, I can believe that. Look what happened to Harry. Both when he met the Dementor and in the class.
J Smith-Capp - May 7, 2003 6:08 pm (#95 of 110)
Hi All'
I think Neville is very much under a memory charm... ( I also posted this in another thread i hope that I'm not being too repetitive. )
Example " Mr. Roberts had a strange, dazed look about him, and he waved them off with a vauge " Merry Christmas " GOF p145 American Edition
Neville , are you all right? asked Hermione
Oh yes ,I'm fine Neville gabbled in the same unnaturally high voice. " Very interesting dinner--I mean lesson -- what's for eating?" GOF p218 American Edition
Moody/Crouch Jr. walks away with Neville (Later...)
They went up to the dormitory to fetch their books and charts,to find Neville there alone, sitting on his bed,reading. He looked a good deal calmer than at the end of Moody's lesson, though still not entirely normal. His eyes were rather red. GOF p220 American Edition.
I thought at first that he was just upset because he saw the curse that was performed on his parents. Now I'm thinking that seeing it( the curse ) might have started to break the memory charm and Moody/Crouch Jr. decided to re-charm (?) him ... just in case... And while he had Neville in the office planted the book on him ( Which Harry never knew about anyway. )
What do you think ? Full of holes...or maybe...maybe... I might be on to something ????
Cliff Hamaker - May 7, 2003 6:48 pm (#96 of 110)
Edited by May 7, 2003 6:53 pm
Yes. I think there is a thread dealing with this. Somewhere.... Be right back.
Rosmerta "Neville can clear Sirius' name to the Ministry" 2/27/03 3:51pm
It's on that thread. Have fun! And use the Search function found in the blue bar. Thank you!
S.E. Jones - May 7, 2003 9:42 pm (#97 of 110)
It could still be just that seeing the curse upset him, I mean look what it did to Harry emotionally. Sure Ron and Hermione don't really see an outward change and yeah Harry tells Moody he's fine, but we, the readers, got to see what was actually going through his head when he saw the AK done on that spider.
GoF Am. paperback Ch. 14 Pg. 216:
'So that was how his parents had died ... exactly like that spider. Had they been unblemished and unmarked too? Had they simply seen the flash of green light and heard the rush of speeding death, before life was wiped from their bodies?'
Then on pg. 217:
'"Some lesson, though, eh?" said Ron to Harry as they set off for the Great Hall. "Fred and George were right, weren't they? He really knows his stuff, Moody, doesn't he? When he did Avada Kedavra, the way that spider just died, just snuffed it right ---" But Ron fell suddenly silent at the look on Harry's face...'
Harry was definately affected by the demonstration but I personally think Harry is a bit stronger willed than Neville and thus it affected Neville more drastically, in fact Harry seems a bit stronger willed than most people in the books.
June - May 8, 2003 2:24 am (#98 of 110)
Add also to the fact that Harry only seens his parents' death in dreams and visions... and it was instant... on the other hand, Neville has to go see his parents in the hospital and watch them being mad each time... it has to affect him a lot more than Harry.
S.E. Jones - May 8, 2003 11:01 am (#99 of 110)
Precisely June, just what I was thinking!
Liz Mann - May 13, 2003 2:02 pm (#100 of 110)
Jimmy, I just wanted to ask, is it all right if I put your theory in my fan fic? Making sure everybody knows the idea's yours, of course.
Kathy Lynch - May 13, 2003 2:52 pm (#101 of 110)
Liz, your new dog is kind of scary. Sorry, just had to let you know. =}
Liz Mann - May 13, 2003 3:39 pm (#102 of 110)
Really?
I wanted a different one but that was the only one that was the right size.
So, Jimmy, is that OK?
timrew - May 13, 2003 4:22 pm (#103 of 110)
Liz....I think your dog looks like it's trapped in a fish tank, looking for its contact lenses.
Okay. This has nothing to do with Fudge - sorry, Kip!
Eloise Midgen - May 13, 2003 5:07 pm (#104 of 110)
Your dog is sort of funny-lookin', but it's OK.
Liz Mann - May 16, 2003 11:46 am (#105 of 110)
Scrambledeggs, that was really funny!
Is Jimmy here?
Liz Mann - May 20, 2003 2:53 pm (#106 of 110)
Erm... Jimmy?
Denise P. - May 20, 2003 3:15 pm (#107 of 110)
Liz, if you are looking for a response regarding a specific question, please click on that person's name. It will take you to a screen where you can get their email address and can email them your question. I don't think the person you are looking for has been back on the Forum since he posted.
Jimmy Bell - May 20, 2003 8:34 pm (#108 of 110)
Right you are, Denise. The college/scholarship application process has been greulling. I am also afraid to run into spoilers. But, sure, use the idea in your fanfic! I'd be honored. But by the way, don't bother e-mailing me. My e-mail address has long been expired. It comes from not checking it for a couple of years. (I don't really use e-mail).
Slytherin Prefect - May 21, 2003 10:25 am (#109 of 110)
Just read over this thread for the first time today. Very intriguing.
I especially like the tie it creates between Lucius Malfoy and St. Mungo's. I've been trying to put the whole St. Mungo's picture together , as it will be the scene of a major event in Destiny Forgotten, and I have wondered why St. Mungo's of all places for Malfoy to make a contribution to, and why he would even make a contribution at all (as he could have just bought his way into any quidditch game seat he wanted regardless.)
Liz Mann - May 21, 2003 12:37 pm (#110 of 110)
Thanks, Jimmy!
But this is not part of my theory, just further speculation.
Kathy Lynch - Mar 4, 2003 7:54 am (#52 of 110)
Yeah, no offense Cliff, (and everybody) but we KNOW LotR had NO part in shaping these stories. People keep bringing up coincidental similarities, and i don't think they're valid. The whole "Wormtongue/Wormtail" thing, now this with "Longbottom," I just think we're reaching a bit here. If you really want something coincidental, there is a comic book series called "Books of Magic" that was written in the early nineties about a thirteen year old boy who is told he is the most powerful wizard in a century, has black hair and glasses, and even has a pet owl in the first issue. (Although it dies.) THOSE comparisons are a bit more obvious.
Cliff Hamaker - Mar 4, 2003 11:27 am (#53 of 110)
Not that I am questioning your argument but, where is the interview that JK said she read LotR after she wrote book one?
Kathy Lynch - Mar 4, 2003 12:56 pm (#54 of 110)
Edited by Mar 4, 2003 11:59 am
I want to say it was one of the Comic Relief interviews, but i'm not sure. What i DO know is that it's on the Lexicon somewhere. Use the search. Or just wait and i betcha WJ will pop up with a link to it pretty soon! And JKR didn't say she read them after she wrote book 1, she said she had read them once when she was about 19, but that they didn't influence her. She made it sound as if she didn't particularly love them, either. But that's just my interpretation.
Cliff Hamaker - Mar 4, 2003 8:55 pm (#55 of 110)
Well, writers write about what they know. Which is everything thing they've read, seen, touched, felt, etc. So, maybe the LOTR books weren't a consious inspiration for anything but a lot of the stuff is *a litte* too close to be coincidence. And isn't it a rule, "there are no coincidences" for HP?
Jimmy Bell - Mar 4, 2003 10:48 pm (#56 of 110)
I agree with Cliff. No offense to JKR, but the connections are obvious, the most obvious being Dementors - Ringwraiths. On the other hand, I don't think we can blatantly lift theories from Lord of the Rings. We are talking about the subconscious here.
Jimmy Bell - Mar 4, 2003 11:17 pm (#57 of 110)
Something just occured to me. If Lucius does know about Fudge's dirty little secret what would his next move be?
Kathy Lynch - Mar 5, 2003 7:55 am (#58 of 110)
I think he may very well know. That's how he keeps getting political backup for all his ill-intentioned ideas. That's how he got Hagrid locked up, that's how Lucious was able to intimidate the members of the school board to remove Dumbly with no interference. I think he's holding SOMETHING over Fudge's head. He wouldn't need to blackmail him for money, he's using him for his power. I bet that's why he STILL hasn't been raided again, even though Ron told his Dad about the secret spot under the floor TWO BOOKS AGO. Anybody thought of that yet?
W J - Mar 7, 2003 7:20 pm (#59 of 110)
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Q: Hello, I was wondering how much Tolkien inspired and influenced your writing?
JKR: Hard to say. I didn't read The Hobbit until after the first Harry book was written, though I read Lord of the Rings when I was nineteen. I think, setting aside the obvious fact that we both use myth and legend, that the similarities are fairly superficial. Tolkien created a whole new mythology, which I would never claim to have done. On the other hand, I think I have better jokes.
Cliff Hamaker - Mar 7, 2003 7:21 pm (#60 of 110)
Do we know that he hasn't been raided?
Sly Girl - Mar 8, 2003 2:40 am (#61 of 110)
On the other hand, I think I have better jokes. <<<<<
ah yes, truer words never spoken.... !
rettoP yrraH - Mar 9, 2003 1:55 pm (#62 of 110)
Yes better Jokes for sure
Carina - Mar 9, 2003 3:04 pm (#63 of 110)
Yeah, I can't imagine a "Uranus" comment in LOTR...
Cliff Hamaker - Mar 9, 2003 8:08 pm (#64 of 110)
Especially since they don't even have nine planets in that world....
Matt Allair - Mar 9, 2003 8:35 pm (#65 of 110)
Jimmy, ' Bloody Brilliant theory' as Ron might say. Bravo! Well, I have read that scholastic interview before and at least by acknowledging that JKR has read the LOTR books. No one can't entertain the possibility that the books have had a wee bit of an influence, so many years go , when she started to develop the story outline for all seven books.
Darn Jimmy, I wish I could have a bit of your reasoning that lead to such a stroke of genius!
Matt
Kathy Lynch - Mar 11, 2003 12:31 pm (#66 of 110)
Ah, i knew you'd come through, WJ! I'm telling you guys, she is the queen of the links.
timrew - Mar 11, 2003 4:07 pm (#67 of 110)
Edited by Mar 11, 2003 3:08 pm
I think that the connection between the Harry Potter books and LOTR is just the fact that they both draw on mythology to some extent. I don't think that JKR got her idea for the Dementors from Tolkien's Ringwraiths. She has said herself that the Dementors sprang from the awful depression she felt when her mother died.
As for Harry Potter having the better jokes, I'll go along with that (I'm trying to think of ONE joke in LOTR!). The film of LOTR puts in a few jokes, and I think this is a good thing. "No-one tosses a dwarf!"; the Hobbits drinking man-sized pints of beer in the Prancing Pony, etc. I think all these things enhance the book.
rettoP yrraH - Mar 11, 2003 9:28 pm (#68 of 110)
LotR light moment: Pip said 'gollum gollumm my preshissss' I laughed when he did that.
Asktqa - Mar 12, 2003 6:13 am (#69 of 110)
The whole first chapter of LOTR is quite funny. Bilbo labelling all his possesions and all. But I'm having trouble thinking of another funny moment in any of the books. The films, that's a different matter... 'Don't tell the elf'
Cliff Hamaker - Mar 12, 2003 8:00 pm (#70 of 110)
And, "That was deliberate! That was deliberate!!!"
Jimmy Bell - Mar 16, 2003 1:36 pm (#71 of 110)
Oh, man, don't get me started reciting the jokes from Lord of the Rings. Several of them are quite funny. You guys are just forgetting.
"'Gandalf,' I said, but my voice was only a whisper. Did he say, 'Hullo, Pippin, this is a pleasant surprise'? No indeed! He said, 'Get up you tomfool of a Took! Where in all this ruin is Treebeard? I want him, quick!' ... 'Treebeard, you have done much but I need more. I have about ten thousand orcs to manage.'
Jimmy Bell - Mar 16, 2003 1:42 pm (#72 of 110)
I can spout Lord of the Rings just as well as Harry Potter. I often laugh out loud at parts in Lord of the Rings. And the end invariably makes me cry. (And I'm a guy. I barely ever cry). But if you're looking for funny parts in Lord of the Rings, look for any lines passing between Gandalf and Pippin. Check out Gimli's lines in a moment of crisis and his talks with Legolas. Check out Merry waking up after the battle of the Pellennor Fields. Okay, I'll shut up before I lose control.
Denise S. - Mar 16, 2003 8:46 pm (#73 of 110)
Don't worry, Jimmy, many of us here have already lost it, whether or not it was for HP or something else. ;-)
Jimmy Bell - Apr 6, 2003 2:41 pm (#74 of 110)
Edited by Apr 6, 2003 1:41 pm
If Neville's memory is restored and Fudge is ousted as Minister of Magic, who will take his place? Arthur, Lucius, or someone else?
Sly Girl - Apr 6, 2003 3:58 pm (#75 of 110)
Lucius would be deliciously evil and would probably aide Voldemort in his quest. Arthur would probably be the just and wisest choice, but I don't think he has much of a chance. It might also be some, as of yet, unknown character.
Kevin YouBustSlug - Apr 7, 2003 5:54 pm (#76 of 110)
Jimmy Bell, you have done some very good detective work here. It would not be surprizing to find out that you are quite correct. For my part, I think that you may have overstated the case in saying "Suddenly little Neville Longbottom toddles out and says that Crouch was not considered worthy enough by his fellow Death Eaters to be involved in the actual torture. He was guarding outside and ran in to warn the other three that the Hit Wizards were coming for them." That seems a tad much for Neville to say immediately after his parents torture, when he would probably be in tears and scared half out of his mind, even if we put him at the high end of your age scale at around six years old. He might simply have pointed to Barty Crouch and said to Fudge: "That man was hiding outside." Fudge could have inferred the rest. I certainly agree that Fudge has some sort of secret and that he set the Dementor on Crouch in order to shut him up. I had, of course, noted that Fudge's name implied "fudging the truth" but I am indebted to Marie E. for pointing out that "Fudge" as a type of chocolate may be an antidote for the Dementors, which could explain his ability to converse with them without having any ill effects. Keep up the good work, all of you. This is a great thread.
Eloise Midgen - Apr 12, 2003 1:11 pm (#77 of 110)
I totally agree with all the above said. I think that Fudge is probably keeping a secret similar to the one above described. I don't know if JK would do the memory charm on Neville thing after she's already had the memory Charm on Bertha thing, but other than that, it seems very likely. After Fudge is kicked out, I think Arthur would be my first choice, then maybe Lupin.
Kevin YouBustSlug - Apr 12, 2003 3:04 pm (#78 of 110)
I see no conflict with having JKR doing the memory charm thing again. After all we have the surprize animagus thing in two books, the use of Polyjuice in two books. So why not have the memory charm introduced in book four so that we can find out in book five that Neville is under it.
Caput Draconis - Apr 12, 2003 5:28 pm (#79 of 110)
Best theory ever
Plus, Fudge outed and Lucius promoted would make for some very interesting reading. Kevin, Jimmy clarified your thoughts earlier in that he meant Neville's actions, or whatever little he may have said, would have been enough for Fudge to figure out that he knew something. This only adds to the theory, in that Fudge's secret is made all the more dirty by his panicked reaction to a scared toddler, rather than to such a concise indication of the threat young Neville represents.
Down with Fudge indeed!
Eloise Midgen - Apr 12, 2003 7:25 pm (#80 of 110)
Oh dear. A death eater as Minister of Magic. That would fix all our problems.
But yes, it would make for interesting reading. I wonder how many previous Ministers of Magic were like Fudge. Have they ever had any seriously evil Ministers? Marye Lupin - Apr 14, 2003 12:33 pm (#81 of 110)
Just out of curiosity- does it actually say in the books that Lucius works for the MOM? (I know he has a lot of influence there and its probably true, but is it ever mentioned?)
koolnkinky - Apr 14, 2003 1:53 pm (#82 of 110)
WOW! Great colaboration going on there. That is one of the best theories I have heard I can't wait to find out if you're even the teeniest bit right! Only 68 days to go! Anyone else excited? And can anyone give me the name and/or author of the book about the mysteries and mistakes made in the HP series? You know the one where they go through everything with a fine tooth comb. I think that would make some interesting reading. Thanks!
Saralinda - Apr 20, 2003 11:28 am (#83 of 110)
Edited by Apr 20, 2003 11:29 am
Another beauty of this positively delicious theory is that it puts yet another interpretation on Crouch Jr./Moody's taking Neville aside after that first DADA session. Oh cripe, he really freaked during that class, didn't he? I'd better do a quick one-on-one and make sure he hasn't suddenly remembered something inconvenient!
You folks are awesome. I am sooo impressed ... my brain is ticking into overdrive. I never made the "fudge" and "chocolate" connection, either. (Of course, just this morning, a preteen godchild clued me in to "Knockturn Alley" and "nocturnally.") Sheesh, I feel like such a squib!
:: Must ... go ... read ... books ... again ...
Denise S. - Apr 20, 2003 8:20 pm (#84 of 110)
:-0 Wow Saralinda, I hadn't thought of that at all! Wow....wow...
Jimmy Bell - Apr 23, 2003 12:09 pm (#85 of 110)
Saralinda, what are you saying was going through Crouch's mind when he chatted with Neville? Do you think he was probing Neville for possible remembrance of the event? That's very plausible.
It's always good to keep the back door open - be able to prove that you are not guilty of what you were in Azkaban for in case Voldemort and the Death Eaters go down hard.
Pinky - Apr 23, 2003 5:00 pm (#86 of 110)
I've wondered if Crouch/Moody "renewed" the obliviate spell on Neville during their private chat. Like Saralinda said, if Neville remember something, that could be a problem. The book says that Neville seemed better after his chat with Crouch/Moody. If he really had remembered something awful, forgetting it right away would definitely make him feel better. And no one ever questioned him about why he reacted the way he did in class, so he wouldn't find out that he wasn't remembering it. I wonder if this should be in a Neville thread....
shepherdess - Apr 23, 2003 5:02 pm (#87 of 110)
Edited by Apr 23, 2003 5:05 pm
I'm not Saralinda, but maybe she was saying part of the reason Crouch wanted to "chat" with Neville alone was to redo an alleged memory charm before Neville remembered to much. (I'm not sure I buy the memory charm theory.)
Pinky, you beat me to it!
Saralinda - Apr 23, 2003 5:09 pm (#88 of 110)
Well, I'm not Saralinda either, when you come right down to it -- she's my boss cat, but she lets me play her on line.
What I meant was that at the very least, Moody/Crouch Jr. could observe Neville close up and see whether he was likely to blurt out anything with a potential for danger to either Moody/Crouch Jr. or the plan in general.
Pinky - Apr 23, 2003 5:33 pm (#89 of 110)
Sorry Shepherdess! I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought of that possibility.
Saralinda, you need to post a pic of the real Saralinda!
Eloise Midgen - Apr 24, 2003 11:05 am (#90 of 110)
Edited by Apr 24, 2003 11:06 am
I'm probably just not catching something, but I need an explaination. What exactly could Neville have remembered during Moody's DADA class? If it was something about Fudge, why would Crouch/Moody care? Neville couldn't know anything about Moody being Crouch, could he? If it was something about Crouch, it was probably something that everyone already suspected/knew. And even if he remembered something new about Crouch Jr., it couldn't seriously inconvenience Moody because no one knew it was him. No one would really care because they all think he's dead. Sorry if I'm just being slow, but can someone clarify?
Saralinda - Apr 24, 2003 11:24 am (#91 of 110)
Hi, Eloise Midgen --
Honestly, I'm not sure what Neville could know, either, but I can't shake the feeling that there's still something hidden about the whole Longbottom session. Maybe the questions they were asking would have given information about their own activities? Maybe there was someone else -- or a couple someone elses -- there that we don't know about?
Remember that at the time of that first DADA lesson, Moody/Crouch doesn't know which way to jump. Like Peter Pettigrew, he seems to be what my husband calls a "Seventh Day Opportunist," jumping wherever he perceives the power to be. Winky is loose and living right there art Hogwarts. On top of that, his father is still alive and fighting the curses that bind him to his home.
Moody/Crouch is playing a dangerous game at this juncture. He has to keep his options open and protect his backside.
Jimmy Bell - Apr 24, 2003 11:44 am (#92 of 110)
Certainly it was a perfect opportunity to probe whether Neville had enough knowledge for him to prove that he didn't take part in the Cruciatus Curse. That way he could prove that he wasn't guilty of what he was in Azkaban for. He could be keeping the back door open.
On the other hand he is subjecting Moody to the Imperius Curse. So he would have to go back to Azkaban anyway. So maybe he was just trying to give Neville the Magical Water Plants of the Meditteranean Book. However, he must have been curious as to why Neville hadn't given evidence that he wasn't involved in the torture. His findings - Neville was under the effect of a powerful Memory Charm.
megfox - Apr 24, 2003 2:49 pm (#93 of 110)
Edited by Apr 24, 2003 2:51 pm
There was also a theory floating around the forum for a while about Neville being a witness to the torture of his parents, of which Crouch may have been a member of. I think its earlier in this thread, actually. He was given a memory charm as well, to protect him from the sights, and it backfired, causing him to be very forgetful and such. When Crouch saw the horror on Neville's face after performing the Unforgivables, so our theory goes, he wanted to be sure that there was nothing "shaken loose" to make him remember things that could be very...ahem...embarassing to certain people. Go check out the rest of the thread, its actually really good.
Cliff Hamaker - Apr 24, 2003 6:35 pm (#94 of 110)
Yeah, I can believe that. Look what happened to Harry. Both when he met the Dementor and in the class.
J Smith-Capp - May 7, 2003 6:08 pm (#95 of 110)
Hi All'
I think Neville is very much under a memory charm... ( I also posted this in another thread i hope that I'm not being too repetitive. )
Example " Mr. Roberts had a strange, dazed look about him, and he waved them off with a vauge " Merry Christmas " GOF p145 American Edition
Neville , are you all right? asked Hermione
Oh yes ,I'm fine Neville gabbled in the same unnaturally high voice. " Very interesting dinner--I mean lesson -- what's for eating?" GOF p218 American Edition
Moody/Crouch Jr. walks away with Neville (Later...)
They went up to the dormitory to fetch their books and charts,to find Neville there alone, sitting on his bed,reading. He looked a good deal calmer than at the end of Moody's lesson, though still not entirely normal. His eyes were rather red. GOF p220 American Edition.
I thought at first that he was just upset because he saw the curse that was performed on his parents. Now I'm thinking that seeing it( the curse ) might have started to break the memory charm and Moody/Crouch Jr. decided to re-charm (?) him ... just in case... And while he had Neville in the office planted the book on him ( Which Harry never knew about anyway. )
What do you think ? Full of holes...or maybe...maybe... I might be on to something ????
Cliff Hamaker - May 7, 2003 6:48 pm (#96 of 110)
Edited by May 7, 2003 6:53 pm
Yes. I think there is a thread dealing with this. Somewhere.... Be right back.
Rosmerta "Neville can clear Sirius' name to the Ministry" 2/27/03 3:51pm
It's on that thread. Have fun! And use the Search function found in the blue bar. Thank you!
S.E. Jones - May 7, 2003 9:42 pm (#97 of 110)
It could still be just that seeing the curse upset him, I mean look what it did to Harry emotionally. Sure Ron and Hermione don't really see an outward change and yeah Harry tells Moody he's fine, but we, the readers, got to see what was actually going through his head when he saw the AK done on that spider.
GoF Am. paperback Ch. 14 Pg. 216:
'So that was how his parents had died ... exactly like that spider. Had they been unblemished and unmarked too? Had they simply seen the flash of green light and heard the rush of speeding death, before life was wiped from their bodies?'
Then on pg. 217:
'"Some lesson, though, eh?" said Ron to Harry as they set off for the Great Hall. "Fred and George were right, weren't they? He really knows his stuff, Moody, doesn't he? When he did Avada Kedavra, the way that spider just died, just snuffed it right ---" But Ron fell suddenly silent at the look on Harry's face...'
Harry was definately affected by the demonstration but I personally think Harry is a bit stronger willed than Neville and thus it affected Neville more drastically, in fact Harry seems a bit stronger willed than most people in the books.
June - May 8, 2003 2:24 am (#98 of 110)
Add also to the fact that Harry only seens his parents' death in dreams and visions... and it was instant... on the other hand, Neville has to go see his parents in the hospital and watch them being mad each time... it has to affect him a lot more than Harry.
S.E. Jones - May 8, 2003 11:01 am (#99 of 110)
Precisely June, just what I was thinking!
Liz Mann - May 13, 2003 2:02 pm (#100 of 110)
Jimmy, I just wanted to ask, is it all right if I put your theory in my fan fic? Making sure everybody knows the idea's yours, of course.
Kathy Lynch - May 13, 2003 2:52 pm (#101 of 110)
Liz, your new dog is kind of scary. Sorry, just had to let you know. =}
Liz Mann - May 13, 2003 3:39 pm (#102 of 110)
Really?
I wanted a different one but that was the only one that was the right size.
So, Jimmy, is that OK?
timrew - May 13, 2003 4:22 pm (#103 of 110)
Liz....I think your dog looks like it's trapped in a fish tank, looking for its contact lenses.
Okay. This has nothing to do with Fudge - sorry, Kip!
Eloise Midgen - May 13, 2003 5:07 pm (#104 of 110)
Your dog is sort of funny-lookin', but it's OK.
Liz Mann - May 16, 2003 11:46 am (#105 of 110)
Scrambledeggs, that was really funny!
Is Jimmy here?
Liz Mann - May 20, 2003 2:53 pm (#106 of 110)
Erm... Jimmy?
Denise P. - May 20, 2003 3:15 pm (#107 of 110)
Liz, if you are looking for a response regarding a specific question, please click on that person's name. It will take you to a screen where you can get their email address and can email them your question. I don't think the person you are looking for has been back on the Forum since he posted.
Jimmy Bell - May 20, 2003 8:34 pm (#108 of 110)
Right you are, Denise. The college/scholarship application process has been greulling. I am also afraid to run into spoilers. But, sure, use the idea in your fanfic! I'd be honored. But by the way, don't bother e-mailing me. My e-mail address has long been expired. It comes from not checking it for a couple of years. (I don't really use e-mail).
Slytherin Prefect - May 21, 2003 10:25 am (#109 of 110)
Just read over this thread for the first time today. Very intriguing.
I especially like the tie it creates between Lucius Malfoy and St. Mungo's. I've been trying to put the whole St. Mungo's picture together , as it will be the scene of a major event in Destiny Forgotten, and I have wondered why St. Mungo's of all places for Malfoy to make a contribution to, and why he would even make a contribution at all (as he could have just bought his way into any quidditch game seat he wanted regardless.)
Liz Mann - May 21, 2003 12:37 pm (#110 of 110)
Thanks, Jimmy!
Mona- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Similar topics» Cornelius Fudge
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» The Very Secret Diary
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» Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets Read Along
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