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Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 751 to 800)
Elanor Sun May 15, 2011 9:50 am
TomProffitt - Mar 9, 2005 9:47 pm (#751 of 1858)
Bullheaded empiricist
"That's when the thing about the gun comes up. And, it's not my idea. It's a really famous type person who teaches acting or play writing or something like that professionally, and one of these days I remember to look it up." --- Joanne R. Reid
Anton Chekov
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Dumbledore - Mar 10, 2005 2:21 pm (#752 of 1858)
(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
I just want to let y'all know that I am firmly a Ron/Hermione shipper. Textual evidence: more or less everything that has been said by my fellow Potties. Harry's relationship I am not yet sure of..(which means that in my eyes the Harry/Pansy 'ship is still possible, Prefect Marcus)
Yup I just had to vent a little there. ;-D
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Ponine - Mar 10, 2005 2:49 pm (#753 of 1858)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
I too firmly believe that Ron and Hermione is just a matter of time, and I wish them all the best
As far as Harry is concerned, I really do not care too much one way or the other. He is only a teen, and could have dozens of flings. I personally would like to see him with Ginny - a headstrong, clever girl - with a flair for Quidditch! I think Luna will remain a friend, but I see her as just a tad too flaky for Harry's taste. Pansy gives me a Mark Evans feeling (Much ado about nothing) - I just do not see Harry getting past her strong Malfoy ties, and her previous stabs at Hermione, regardless of her place in upcoming stories.
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Solitaire - Mar 11, 2005 3:41 am (#754 of 1858)
Pansy could be a true Slytherin who would "use any means to achieve her ends." Isn't that what the Sorting Hat once said about Slytherins? She might be more interested in saving her own skin than risking her life for a cause that may or may not matter all that much to her.
If greatness is her ambition, my guess is that she would be more likely to find it with Harry, Ron, or Neville than with Draco ... but I'm still not convinced, either. If she does move away from Draco, I do not think it will be for love of Harry, but from her Slytherin-ish desire to be on the winning team.
Solitaire
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Joanne R. Reid - Mar 11, 2005 10:37 am (#755 of 1858)
Hi,
Thank you, Tom Proffitt! Indeed, it was Anton Chekov. It was banging around inside of my muddled brain and just wouldn't come out. So, I looked it up. By the time I got back here, you had already informed us.
Thank you!
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Tomoé - Mar 11, 2005 10:52 am (#756 of 1858)
Back in business
Solitaire -> Pansy could be a true Slytherin who would "use any means to achieve her ends."
You mean love potions? ^_~
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Solitaire - Mar 12, 2005 1:56 am (#757 of 1858)
No, not really, Tomoé. I just meant she may even be willing to "cross over" to the non-Slytherin group if it satisfies her desire of saving her own skin ... particularly if she is not completely sold out to Slytherin beliefs about pure-bloodedness.
Solitaire
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Ponine - Mar 12, 2005 6:23 am (#758 of 1858)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Prefect Marcus - obviously you are a strong proponent of our girl Pansy, and while it never dawned on me to look for these things, for the sake of argument - do we have convincing 'evidence' in the books that Pansy are more likely to 'end up with' Harry, than say, Susan Bones, Milicent Bulstrode, Hannah Abbott or Lavender Brown?
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Prefect Marcus - Mar 12, 2005 5:19 pm (#759 of 1858)
"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Mar 12, 2005 4:22 pm
Ponine - ...(D)o we have convincing 'evidence' in the books that Pansy are more likely to 'end up with' Harry(?)
Iron clad evidence? no. Annoying hints that won't go away? yes.
The theory was originally derived from a specific interpretation of a comment Rowling made just before OoP came out. She was asked about unusual pairings. Her answer seemed to imply that one pairing in particular went to the very heart of things, and that nobody had guessed on all the fansites she had seen. Even if someone did guess at a later time, it was too late now. She had already laid out her clues, and placed her red herrings.
So, assuming that she was talking about Harry's 'ship (by no means a foregone conclusion), we can deduce six things:
(One) - Harry will definitely 'ship someone.
(Two) - It will be someone hidden and obscured by red herrings.
(Three) - There will be a number of hints given.
(Four) - It is so unlikely that nobody at that time had guessed it.
(Five) - The pairing goes to the heart of the series.
(Six) - The girl would have been talked about up through GoF.
Now if the above comments were about Harry's 'ship, (a big 'if') you can cross off Luna right off the bat. She was introduced in OoP.
You can also cross off Susan Bones. Susan did very little before OoP. The same with Millicent. She was never more than Crabbe in drag. Whenever Rowling needed a female thug, she used Millicent. No hint of a personality whatsoever.
While Lavender and Parvati were dealt with, hooking up with them can hardly be called "the heart of the series". FLASH: Gryffindor boy hooks up with Gryffindor girl. Doesn't do anything for me. How about you?
Hannah does have a few lines now and again, but if you blink, you'll miss her. She did (or at least I think it was her) stand up for Harry in the library in CoS, but other than that, she is pretty much a no-show personality.
Her comment also precludes Hermione and Ginny. Those two have been heavily guessed at since the first two books. Removing Fleur from the list is a bit problematic. While it is true that not many people espoused a Harry/Fleur 'ship, it still had been guessed somewhat regularly.
I feel good about it being Pansy because when I first thought of it, I did a google search. The only Harry/Pansy 'ships I could find were non-family oriented ones dealing with very strong girls and weak boys. Nobody -- and I do mean nobody -- seemed to be seriously suggesting it.
++++
Now, another supportive theory. It is a well-known dramatic and literary principle that the alpha male and the alpha female end up with each other. This means the strongest male and the strongest female will join. So, who are the strongest females?
Most people agree that the strongest young ladies are Hermione, Ginny, Pansy, Fleur, and Luna. Some might argue that Susan belongs to this list. Be that as it may, it does not include Millicent, Hannah, or Lavender.
+++++
Finally, if Harry and Pansy 'ship, think of all the thematic threads that will be neatly tied up.
The evils of prejudice.
Not judging a book by its cover.
The rekindling of the ancient Gryffindor/Slytherin bond.
Forgiveness and second chances.
It is our choices that define us, not our abilities.
Resolving Harry's long-time prejudice against Slytherin, even though the Hat said he would do well there.
Doing what is right as opposed to doing what is easy.
And we haven't even begun to discuss the hints of Pansy's personality that we get glimpses of.
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TomProffitt - Mar 12, 2005 5:29 pm (#760 of 1858)
Bullheaded empiricist
"So, assuming that she was talking about Harry's 'ship (by no means a foregone conclusion) ... " --- Prefect Marcus
This is the point in your argument where you lose me, Marcus. Which makes everything after irrelevant.
So, if you want me on your side of the fence that's where you're going to have to open the gate (I'm not climbing over).
EDIT: Also posted on "Harry's 'ship units the houses."
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Ponine - Mar 12, 2005 7:21 pm (#761 of 1858)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
I like your reasoning, Marcus, and I also agree with Tom in that the pairing in question a) may or may not be romantic and b) may or may not include Harry.
(The link to where the pairing quote is here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] )
But what to make of these quotes, Marcus? Is she just stringing us along? Anyone? Everyone?!?
Magwitch: If you could be any female character in Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone which one would you be? JK Rowling replies -> Hermione. Definitely not Pansy Parkinson. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I've met enough people I didn't like in my lifetime that I've got a fairly shrewd idea of what I want the baddies to be like. I think -- from the letters I get from the people your age -- I think nearly all of you will know a Draco Malfoy and I think the girls will almost certainly know a Pansy Parkinson. We all grow up with those sort of people and certainly as adults we all have met Lucius Malfoy and some of the other characters. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Hollywand - Mar 12, 2005 10:04 pm (#762 of 1858)
Gryffindor
A feeble suggestion about the 'heart of the series' remark---we have been told now that Hermione's and Krum's wands both have dragon heart string cores---could this detail signify a future relationship? If this relationship does develop, will the resolution of romantic jealousy be at the heart of book six and seven?
Doesn't Rowling explore the "unity of the houses" theme in the character relationship between Snape and Harry, and "don't judge a book by its cover" additionally with Hagrid's character? These themes seems to be prevalent enough without them being resolved by a romantic alliance between houses.
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Muggle Doctor - Mar 13, 2005 2:39 pm (#763 of 1858)
Ponine said:
Is she just stringing us along?
I think she is, but this does not reflect badly on her. We know the books are being written out of love for the story and the characters, and not just as a commercial exercise, but Rowling would be a fool if she didn't apply some good business sense (which I believe she has in abundance) to keep us interested/talking. If nothing else, we are owed the occasional crumb as compensation while we wait for her massive efforts to reach us.
She could do it in half the time if she really wanted, but do you want Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince or would you rather be satisfied with Hurried Pottage and the Half-Baked Sequel?
To me, 'heart of the series' is about love (a constant theme in Harry's battle with Voldemort, the only weapon to which the Dark Lord has no answer) and the acceptance of differences (remember how prevalent the 'mudblood/pureblood' thing is) - and I believe this means putting Ron the Pureblood from the large and loving family together with Hermione the Muggle-blooded only child, and taking care of both issues, leaving someone else for Harry. But I could yet be wrong.
Regards, MD
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Prefect Marcus - Mar 13, 2005 3:25 pm (#764 of 1858)
"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Mar 13, 2005 2:25 pm
TomProffitt - So, if you want me on your side of the fence that's where you're going to have to open the gate (I'm not climbing over).
An interesting analogy.
I originally started in the H/H field. I was quite happy there for a long time. However, I could not help but notice that nothing seemed to be growing in it. I looked around and discovered that the growing trees in the neighboring R/H field was starting to crowd out the light and water that had been getting into the H/H field. I tried valiently to sustain H/H, but I finally gave it up as a hopeless cause.
Having been ejected from the H/H field, I started looking around for a H/? field that showed promise. There were any number to chose from. Most of them had low fences with simple slats easy to climb over. I entered first one, then another, then another.
I entered the H/G one for a time, but never found it that satisfying. For one thing, I never found it all that different from the many other H/? gardens. It did show signs of vigor at one time, but it seemed the gardeners had lost interest and had moved on. Also, I have to admit to thinking it was laid out too much according to long established clichéd plans. Perhaps that prejudiced me against it, but none the less, I was never very happy or satisfied in it.
And so it was repeated, time after time, garden after garden. Most of them had low, easily scalable walls. I found some of them barely tended. Others showed initial promise but little else. There were novelties here and there to be sure, but nothing really satisfying. I began to despair.
Then something the head gardener said struck a new thought. What if the true H/? garden had been carefully hidden from view?
So I began looking around. I first noticed the high walls surrounding the H/Fleur garden. Surely this is the one the head gardener meant. So I scaled the wall and had a good look around, but soon grew disillusioned there, too. Yes, it had high walls, but what I found was uneven growth. New tender growth was struggling to establish itself with older, more mature growth. It didn't help that the two gardeners were no longer communicating with each otherr. The garden was going to weed. So I climbed back over the wall and resumed my search.
Then suddenly I spied in an out-of-the-way corner a high wall topped with barbed wire. The wall was surrounded by thorns, thistles, and noxious weeds. Who would want to approach it?
Well, I gritted my teeth and climbed over into the H/P garden. Much to my surprise, instead of finding the same old same old, I found carefully tended patches ready to burst forth in beauty and strength. I looked around, expecting to find the problems I had encountered in all the other gardens. To my surprise, there was nothing that wasn't easily dealt with.
I grew excited and called back over the fence to my fellow passers-by to come have a look. Many did brave the thorns and the barbed wire to have a peek. A large number jumped over and began closely examining the handiwork of the master gardener. A few joined me in revelling in what we had found. Others took the time to point out what they thought were flaws, and things that they felt uncomfortable with. I and my fellow H/P'ers looked closely at their concerns and found that their basic complaint was that the garden was still in an early state, and those thorns and high fence weren't very inviting. However, a fair number of those who pointed out the problem did admit to the potential of the garden and promised that if it continued to grow, they were be the first to come over. It was disappointing, but at least they had tried.
Then there are those that called back that they would only come to investigate if a gate through the fence was provided for them, otherwise they wouldn't even try. The fence is too high and the weeds too thick and threatening to even consider the effort. That saddens us, but that is their choice.
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TomProffitt - Mar 13, 2005 4:50 pm (#765 of 1858)
Bullheaded empiricist
The reason your fence is so nasty is that it has no gate. Your "gate" is the "relationship that goes to the heart of it all" quote. For your argument to work at all you must have interpreted this quote correctly. You have said nothing to convince me your interpretation of the quote is correct. I don't care how nice Happy Pansyland is. You have to have a way to get there. You don't. Don't show me Happy Pansyland, show me the gate in your fence.
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Muggle Doctor - Mar 13, 2005 6:32 pm (#766 of 1858)
Oh forget it, Tom. You'll never convince him he's wrong until he sees Harry walk down the aisle with Grawp's daughter. :-p
That being said: Prefect Marcus, I think your metaphors are lovely!
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Ponine - Mar 13, 2005 7:52 pm (#767 of 1858)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
OK - I would like to officially propose that our unlikely pairing has nothing to do with Harry at all, him being a young lad at the tender age of seventeen at the end of book seven (at least I hope and pray he will be). I say Narcissa is one we should keep an eye on.
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Snuffles - Mar 14, 2005 2:08 am (#768 of 1858)
Olivia
Prefect Marcus, you fight your corner very well and Im going to take a stroll past this garden but Im not going to brave the thorns or barbed wire just yet! Ive always like H/G but your posts have got me thinking (Dont like to do that too often, makes my brain hurt!) I think I will buy some gardening gloves and wait for book 6!
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Prefect Marcus - Mar 14, 2005 11:01 am (#769 of 1858)
"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Mar 14, 2005 10:30 am
TomProffitt - You have said nothing to convince me your interpretation of the quote is correct.
And you, Tom, have said nothing to convince me it is not. You have not proven that Rowling (a person not normally given to ramblings and wild swings of topics) did in fact switch topics mid-stream.
Occam's Razor states that one should not pile up complications. Claiming Rowling switched topics mid-stream is a complication because now you are forced to (a) prove that she did in fact switch, and (b) figure out what her new topic was. The former might be proven if her statements after the supposed switch do not make logical sense assuming the original topic. But unfortunately they do make logical sense. They are very consistent with the original topic. So to believe otherwise leaves one fighting Occam's Razor.
Now it is certainly within the bounds of Occam's Razor to argue that the hidden unusual romantic pairing that goes to the heart of the series might not involve Harry. You could then argue that I climbed the wrong spikey fence. But then you would be required to point the way to the proper fence.
+++++
Thank-you Snuffles, but as any H/P 'shipper will tell you, the 'ship really defends itself. If it didn't, we wouldn't be aboard it. Why defend a shrew?
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Sir Tornado - Mar 14, 2005 11:29 am (#770 of 1858)
Rebel without a cause.
Ok... I've seen "Occam's Razor" being mentioned time and again on H/P ship... my question: What exacty is Occam's Razor?
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Prefect Marcus - Mar 14, 2005 11:35 am (#771 of 1858)
"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Mar 14, 2005 10:37 am
Sir Tornado - What exacty is Occam's Razor?
My dictionary reads:
A scientific and philosophic rule that entities should not be multiplied unneccessily which is interpreted as requiring that the simplest of competing theories be preferred to the more complex.
In other words, the simplest and less complex solution is usually the right one.
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Steve Newton - Mar 14, 2005 11:55 am (#772 of 1858)
Librarian
Marcus, you say, "You have not proven that Rowling (a person not normally given to ramblings and wild swings of topics) did in fact switch topics mid-stream."
While you have convinced me that Pansy is a possibility it is you, the one making the hypothesis, that must produce the evidence. Until you directly address the issue, and I may have missed it, the burden of proof would seem to rest on you. At least that is how I think of the scientific method.
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Weeny Owl - Mar 14, 2005 12:18 pm (#773 of 1858)
Except if you apply Occam's Razor, it does make sense that it isn't romantic pairing she's talking about.
To the "unlikely pairings," she replied, "I don't really want to say as it will ruin all the fan sites."
She then went on to discuss theories. They have such fun with their theories ... and it is fun, it is fun. And some of them even get quite close. No-one has ever - I have gone and looked at some of it and no-one's ever ... There is one thing that if anyone guessed I would be really annoyed as it is kind of the heart of it all.
It sounds to me as if she answered the original question and then went on to theories in general. She wasn't rambling. She didn't switch subjects. She just segued into something.
She answered the question about pairings, mentioning fan sites, which then brought to mind theories in general, which then brought to mind the "thing" that is at the heart of the books.
If that had been from an interview after the first couple of books, I could see it, but it was right as the fifth book was ready for the stores, and by then, since she's stated she does check out fan sites, she would almost have to have seen nearly any possible pairing mentioned. It just doesn't sound as if the "thing" at the heart of it all is romantic.
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Prefect Marcus - Mar 14, 2005 12:56 pm (#774 of 1858)
"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Mar 14, 2005 12:00 pm
Steve Newton - While you have convinced me that Pansy is a possibility it is you, the one making the hypothesis, that must produce the evidence. Until you directly address the issue, and I may have missed it, the burden of proof would seem to rest on you. At least that is how I think of the scientific method.
A good point, Steve. A very good point.
Rowling has set up a formidible barrier between us and Pansy. She has been quite the shrew. The question is will Pansy continue being the shrew, or has Rowling been in fact carefully grooming her to become Harry's 'ship?
Now I am more than willing to lay out the evidence to support the latter; but I think it only fair to ask, "What evidence would satisfy you?" There is really quite a bit to support this theory. However, if Rowling has indeed been hiding and disguising the theory; the evidence, by definition, will be ambigious and subject to other interpretations.
Think of it in terms of Scabbers being an animagus, let alone Peter Petigrew. What unambiguous evidence can you point to before the Shrieking Shack that proves this theory? Or what unambiguous evidence can you point to before the end of GoF that proves that the Alaster Moody of GoF was really a DeathEater in disguise? Yes, when re-reading the books now with the advantage of hindsight, you can easily pick out the little hints and clues, but in each case there was little or no hard unambiguous evidence.
So I ask again, what evidence will satisfy you that this theory is valid?
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Eponine - Mar 14, 2005 1:27 pm (#775 of 1858)
The thing about this quote is that you rarely see it in its entirety, and to properly consider it evidence for anything you should be using the entire quote.
I don't really want to say as it will ruin all the fan sites. They have such fun with their theories ... and it is fun, it is fun. And some of them even get quite close. No-one has ever - I have gone and looked at some of it and no-one's ever ... There is one thing that if anyone guessed I would be really annoyed as it is kind of the heart of it all. And it kind of explains everything and no-one's quite got there but a couple of people have skirted it. So you know, I would be pretty miffed after thirteen or fourteen years of writing the books if someone just came along and said I think this will happen in book seven. Because it is too late, I couldn't divert now, everything has been building up to it, and I've laid all my clues.
If you are going to use this quote as an argument for anything, you must use the entire quote. This sentence...And it kind of explains everything and no-one's quite got there but a couple of people have skirted it. This sentence says to me that this thing will explain everything. This "heart of it all" is the reason for the series. There are people who have come close to it, but are not quite there yet.
Theorizing about a romantic pairing is not skirting around anything. Stating "I think Dobby and Winky are going to be together" is coming out and saying something. Stating "I feel that Lord Voldemort is after Harry because he is the heir of Gryffindor and the Slytherins and the Gryffindors have been battling it out for ages" when LV is actually after Harry because he is the heir of Gryffindor and there was a prophecy that only one family could survive would be skirting around a theory. THe very nature of theorizing about a pairing is extremely difficult to "skirt around".
There is also this part of Jo's response to consider - Because it is too late, I couldn't divert now, everything has been building up to it, and I've laid all my clues. As far as canon stands right now, IMO there is nothing about Pansy that demands a secondary explanation beyond what we've seen. She could show up in a "Death Nibblers" t-shirt, and I don't think it would be a complete shock to people.
It is my opinion that this quote is not referring to any kind of romantic entanglement. It could be referencing a non-romantic partnership, but I don't think it's likely. I find the "it kind of explains everything," the "a couple of people have skirted around it," and the "it's too late, I couldn't divert..." to be pointing away from romance. First, I don't think any romantic pairing is going to "explain everything." Second, I don't think you can "skirt around" a romance. Third, if "everything has been building up to it" then there hasn't been a very solid foundation built yet.
Whatever it is she's talking about in this quote, if she's laid so many clues that she "couldn't divert now," I would expect the theory to make sense now. I don't think we need to wait for HBP for more clues. This is not to say that HBP won't contain more clues, but I would expect to be able to look at books 1-5 and pick out these clues that explain it all.
So that was a lot of rambling to say that I don't think she's talking about romance.
Edited to add: Yes, when re-reading the books now with the advantage of hindsight, you can easily pick out the little hints and clues, but in each case there was little or no hard unambiguous evidence.
So I ask again, what evidence will satisfy you that this theory is valid? - Marcus
Last time I read through the books, I read with the idea of your theory in mind. I tried to have an open mind, and trust me, it was hard to do. However, I still came to the conclusion that there is nothing in these books to suggest that Pansy is any more than what we have been presented with - a cruel person who takes pleasure in the misfortune and pain of others, someone who not only particpates passively but also actively in the belittlement and abuse of others.
What evidence do I need? The ONLY thing that could ever convince me that this theory is valid would be to see it in print, and even then I would wonder who replaced my HP books with the bootleg editions.
Edited once again: Thanks Ponine! (And yes, I do believe you used that correctly)
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Ponine - Mar 14, 2005 1:28 pm (#776 of 1858)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Marcus - Your reply to my post 761 would do me a lot of good. I can see your point, and enjoy your reasoning, which I find solid. However, Rowlings quotes in the above mentioned post really, in my opinion, puts a damper on P/H, I think.
Eponine - we posted at the same time - I really like your post, and think there is a lot of merit to it (is that an expression, and if so, did I use it right?).
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Prefect Marcus - Mar 14, 2005 1:48 pm (#777 of 1858)
"Anyone can cook"
Now, now Eponine and Ponine, if you are going to go with the full quote, go with the context, as well. What was the question that brought forth the reply, and what was its context?
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Eponine - Mar 14, 2005 1:53 pm (#778 of 1858)
JEREMY PAXMAN: So there will be some pairing up will there in this book?
JK ROWLING: Well in the fullness of time.
JEREMY PAXMAN: Unlikely pairings? Not Hermione and Draco Malfoy or anything like that?
JK ROWLING: I don't really want to say as it will ruin all the fan sites. They have such fun with their theories ... and it is fun, it is fun. And some of them even get quite close. No-one has ever - I have gone and looked at some of it and no-one's ever ... There is one thing that if anyone guessed I would be really annoyed as it is kind of the heart of it all. And it kind of explains everything and no-one's quite got there but a couple of people have skirted it. So you know, I would be pretty miffed after thirteen or fourteen years of writing the books if someone just came along and said I think this will happen in book seven. Because it is too late, I couldn't divert now, everything has been building up to it, and I've laid all my clues.
There you go, Marcus.
Even with the question, I still come to the same conclusion. That is, the "heart of it all" is not a romantic pairing. You have your theories, and I have mine. I'm not going to convince you, nor are you going to convince me. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree, agreed?
Now, how about Dobby/Winky? I think that one's completely canon. He took care of her when she was drunk, after all.
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Steve Newton - Mar 14, 2005 2:51 pm (#779 of 1858)
Librarian
Marcus, the full quotation is better when debating this. Its the 'one thing' phrase which, I think, does major damage to your position. If she had said 'one' then it would clearly mean the theory of a relationship. The 'thing' part to me means a change of subject. I've read it many times and that is my impression.
Sorry to be such a nitpicker on the words.
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TomProffitt - Mar 14, 2005 4:46 pm (#780 of 1858)
Bullheaded empiricist
Ibid
I'm generally not one to say, "ditto," Marcus, but a number of previous posters have adequately expressed my doubts regarding "The Quote."
I am of the belief that you have misinterpreted Jo's answer. For you to convince me otherwise I believe you would have to find other quotes or references from Jo which indicate that a romantic pairing is central to her main plot. If I recall correctly Jo has said on more than one occasion (to paraphrase) "... the series isn't really about that kind of thing, but what's life with out a little romance?"
To convince me, Marcus, you need to show me more quotes.
I'm gonna go look for the quote I paraphrased. I will either add with an edit or a second post.
EDIT: This is one of the quotes, not as strong for my position as I had recalled, but still what it implies doesn't help the H/P position very much either. I'd call this one a wash.
polly weasley: Will Harry fall for another girl in book six, or will he be too busy for romance? JK Rowling replies -> He'll be busy, but what's life without a little romance?
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Tomoé - Mar 15, 2005 4:39 pm (#781 of 1858)
Back in business
I found another interesting quote about dates :
J.K. Rowlingquestion22: Nah ... don't like that one. Oh I like this one: "Do Harry and Hermione have a date?"
No! They're, they're very platonic friends. But I won't answer for anyone else, nudge, nudge, wink, wink. (National Press Club, October 20, 1999)
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Cuivienen - Mar 15, 2005 6:49 pm (#782 of 1858)
Tomoe, I think that that quote was hinting at Harry and Cho going on a date, which we finally saw in OotP.
Actually, it's odd, that quote would most likely be referring to GoF, yet the only date of significance in GoF was Hermione and Viktor, and date is a rather strong term for them.
Hmm.
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Eponine - Mar 15, 2005 7:58 pm (#783 of 1858)
That's another quote that has been debated ad nauseum. Some say it's referring only to GoF, but others (including myself) think it's for the duration of the series.
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Tomoé - Mar 15, 2005 10:21 pm (#784 of 1858)
Back in business
Eponine -> That's another quote that has been debated ad nauseum.
Which is to show how off of this subject I am. ^_^
I'm looking for a specific quote on quick-quotes (not related to romance) but don't remember the exact wording, so I have to read the whole site. I just happen to stumble on that line and put it here with no definite thought. Maybe I should had get some sleep instead. ^_~
(by the way, Eponine, I was pretty please with you take of unlikely pairing quote)
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Eponine - Mar 16, 2005 4:50 am (#785 of 1858)
Tomoe, I don't think that quote has been picked apart here quite as much as other places on the web.
OT, what quote are you looking for? If you can remember part of it or a few distinctive words, just typing that in might help.
Oh, and thanks!
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Loopy Lupin - Mar 16, 2005 8:01 am (#786 of 1858)
I've been posting for a while here and, actually, I don't recall that quote being discussed that much. It certainly does some damage to the Harry/Hermione 'shippers though.
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Tomoé - Mar 16, 2005 8:48 am (#787 of 1858)
Back in business
OT, I'm looking for the interview in which Jo said she kills the characters she likes. I don't remember any word linked to that interview that would give me less than hundreds of matching results.
Back on topic, too bad the question was asked in present tense, "Will Harry and Hermione have a date?" would have been more useful. Though I do believe Jo though in future tense, but that's matter of opinion (plus, it helps my own 'ship ^_~)
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Eponine - Mar 16, 2005 4:26 pm (#788 of 1858)
The very platonic quote has been bandied about on many places on the web, but I don't think it's been addressed here that much.
I've seen this quote explained away in several creative ways.
First, (and the most plausible) she was only referring to GoF so no other books count.
Second, she was only referring to GoF or she was lying because Harry and Hermione do have a date in OotP. Where? Why, when they met up with Rita and Luna at the Three Broomsticks. Quite romantic.
Third, (my personal favorite) the "platonic" definition she was using is referring to the deep, spiritual, nonsexual love defined by Plato. Therefore Harry and Hermione have a love that transcends the physical and goes straight to the spiritual.
I have nothing against literary teenagers falling in love or finding their future spouse in the course of their fictional teenagerhood, but to portray two teenagers in a series that has up until this point been very true to life in regards to relationships as having a love so deep they don't need to be attracted to one another is quite alien to her writing style so far. Personally, I prefer to think that by "platonic" she meant, they like/love each other, but not in that way.
So, nobody else thinks Dobby/Winky is totally canon?
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Muggle Doctor - Mar 16, 2005 11:00 pm (#789 of 1858)
So, nobody else thinks Dobby/Winky is totally canon?
Usually it's the girl who tries to rescue the dissolute alcoholic male. So no, I don't think it is.
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wwtMask - Mar 17, 2005 8:06 am (#790 of 1858)
Would winky even have Dobby anyway? She doesn't respect him for being a payed employee and thinks he is a disgrace to House elves that is even lower than she (a dismissed house elf) is. I can only think that she and Dobby remain friends due to history with each other and make an effort to ignore the aspects of one another that they find unpleasant.
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Puck - Mar 17, 2005 7:56 pm (#791 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Winky is in no place for that kind of relationship.
I wonder about Harry. Voldemort used Sirius to get to him, and as a result Sirius id dead. He may have been screeming about Snape, but he's sure to come to a point of blaming himself. I can see him backing away from those in cares about at some point in time, in an attempt to protect them. He would temporarily become a loner, which would give him some common ground with Knott.
Since his ability to love (on any level, not just romantically) is the source of his potential power over Voldemort, Haarry will eventually have to take a chance and open his heart once again.
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Chemyst - Mar 18, 2005 8:02 pm (#792 of 1858)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Winky is in no place for that kind of relationship. - Puck
That is a true statement for book 5. But girls often fall for their compassionate rescuers, so by book 7, who knows?
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Muggle Doctor - Mar 20, 2005 6:22 pm (#793 of 1858)
Thinking about the Sorting Hat as an intelligent agent capable of making decisions as to someone's worth got me thinking about the Goblet of Fire.
With the exception of Harry, whose name was more or less coaxed from it by Barty Crouch Jr, what sort of decision making process did the Goblet go through to pick the champions? Did it pick one from each school at random, or was it somehow able to divine the qualities of the potential contestants?
If the latter, it is to a certain extent an intellgent agent like the Hat, although its 'output' is limited to the expulsion of the pieces of paper with the contestants' names on them.
In this case, I have the ultimate 'ship: Sorting Hat/Goblet.
(Crossposted on the Sorting Hat thread).
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KWeldon - Mar 21, 2005 11:27 am (#794 of 1858)
In this case, I have the ultimate 'ship: Sorting Hat/Goblet.
This is the funniest thing I have read on this forum in a long time.
Long may they find happiness together! Poor two-dimensional Marauders' Map----always a bridesmaid, never a bride.
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Puck - Mar 21, 2005 7:52 pm (#795 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I am sure Fred and George will soon invent a counterpart for the map.
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Gregory welch - Mar 23, 2005 12:11 pm (#796 of 1858)
Hey guys,
I know this is not the right place to ask this but I need help. Does anyone know where I can find that list of the students in harrys year thst tells their heritage? I lost my last link to the list and can't find it again.
Thanks
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Tomoé - Mar 23, 2005 2:03 pm (#797 of 1858)
Back in business
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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ema fewett - Mar 24, 2005 2:26 pm (#798 of 1858)
Hi! OK, so this is a really random question and the more I started thinking about it, the more curious I was. In one of JKR's interview, one of the questions asked was, would Harry find it harder to kiss Cho or to fight Voldemort? While I know some people may find this question extremely easy, I'm not really sure what the answer is. I know that Cho and Harry are not going to go out again but during the time that he did go out......anyway....what do you guys think?
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Puck - Mar 24, 2005 7:29 pm (#799 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I think Cho. I mean, there is that whole "should I shouldn't I" uncertainty in that kind of situation. With Voldemort it is cut and dry- he HAS to fight. He seems to have strong instincts when it comes to battle, plus he welcomes someone coming to the rescue. He has no clue when it comes to girls, and would be mortified if someone walked in the room.
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Tomoé - Mar 26, 2005 10:31 am (#800 of 1858)
Back in business
Here's another quote:
sammyohyeah asks: Is it just me, or was something going on between Ron and Hermione during the last half of GOF? I love your books, btw, and two of them I've read stright through cover to cover in under 24 hours.
jkrowling_bn: well done on the reading speed!
yes, something's 'going on'...
but Ron doesn't realise it yet...
typical boy (AOL Chat, October 20th 2000)
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Bullheaded empiricist
"That's when the thing about the gun comes up. And, it's not my idea. It's a really famous type person who teaches acting or play writing or something like that professionally, and one of these days I remember to look it up." --- Joanne R. Reid
Anton Chekov
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Dumbledore - Mar 10, 2005 2:21 pm (#752 of 1858)
(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
I just want to let y'all know that I am firmly a Ron/Hermione shipper. Textual evidence: more or less everything that has been said by my fellow Potties. Harry's relationship I am not yet sure of..(which means that in my eyes the Harry/Pansy 'ship is still possible, Prefect Marcus)
Yup I just had to vent a little there. ;-D
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Ponine - Mar 10, 2005 2:49 pm (#753 of 1858)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
I too firmly believe that Ron and Hermione is just a matter of time, and I wish them all the best
As far as Harry is concerned, I really do not care too much one way or the other. He is only a teen, and could have dozens of flings. I personally would like to see him with Ginny - a headstrong, clever girl - with a flair for Quidditch! I think Luna will remain a friend, but I see her as just a tad too flaky for Harry's taste. Pansy gives me a Mark Evans feeling (Much ado about nothing) - I just do not see Harry getting past her strong Malfoy ties, and her previous stabs at Hermione, regardless of her place in upcoming stories. - - - - - - - - - -
Solitaire - Mar 11, 2005 3:41 am (#754 of 1858)
Pansy could be a true Slytherin who would "use any means to achieve her ends." Isn't that what the Sorting Hat once said about Slytherins? She might be more interested in saving her own skin than risking her life for a cause that may or may not matter all that much to her.
If greatness is her ambition, my guess is that she would be more likely to find it with Harry, Ron, or Neville than with Draco ... but I'm still not convinced, either. If she does move away from Draco, I do not think it will be for love of Harry, but from her Slytherin-ish desire to be on the winning team.
Solitaire
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Joanne R. Reid - Mar 11, 2005 10:37 am (#755 of 1858)
Hi,
Thank you, Tom Proffitt! Indeed, it was Anton Chekov. It was banging around inside of my muddled brain and just wouldn't come out. So, I looked it up. By the time I got back here, you had already informed us.
Thank you!
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Tomoé - Mar 11, 2005 10:52 am (#756 of 1858)
Back in business
Solitaire -> Pansy could be a true Slytherin who would "use any means to achieve her ends."
You mean love potions? ^_~
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Solitaire - Mar 12, 2005 1:56 am (#757 of 1858)
No, not really, Tomoé. I just meant she may even be willing to "cross over" to the non-Slytherin group if it satisfies her desire of saving her own skin ... particularly if she is not completely sold out to Slytherin beliefs about pure-bloodedness.
Solitaire
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Ponine - Mar 12, 2005 6:23 am (#758 of 1858)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Prefect Marcus - obviously you are a strong proponent of our girl Pansy, and while it never dawned on me to look for these things, for the sake of argument - do we have convincing 'evidence' in the books that Pansy are more likely to 'end up with' Harry, than say, Susan Bones, Milicent Bulstrode, Hannah Abbott or Lavender Brown?
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Prefect Marcus - Mar 12, 2005 5:19 pm (#759 of 1858)
"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Mar 12, 2005 4:22 pm
Ponine - ...(D)o we have convincing 'evidence' in the books that Pansy are more likely to 'end up with' Harry(?)
Iron clad evidence? no. Annoying hints that won't go away? yes.
The theory was originally derived from a specific interpretation of a comment Rowling made just before OoP came out. She was asked about unusual pairings. Her answer seemed to imply that one pairing in particular went to the very heart of things, and that nobody had guessed on all the fansites she had seen. Even if someone did guess at a later time, it was too late now. She had already laid out her clues, and placed her red herrings.
So, assuming that she was talking about Harry's 'ship (by no means a foregone conclusion), we can deduce six things:
(One) - Harry will definitely 'ship someone.
(Two) - It will be someone hidden and obscured by red herrings.
(Three) - There will be a number of hints given.
(Four) - It is so unlikely that nobody at that time had guessed it.
(Five) - The pairing goes to the heart of the series.
(Six) - The girl would have been talked about up through GoF.
Now if the above comments were about Harry's 'ship, (a big 'if') you can cross off Luna right off the bat. She was introduced in OoP.
You can also cross off Susan Bones. Susan did very little before OoP. The same with Millicent. She was never more than Crabbe in drag. Whenever Rowling needed a female thug, she used Millicent. No hint of a personality whatsoever.
While Lavender and Parvati were dealt with, hooking up with them can hardly be called "the heart of the series". FLASH: Gryffindor boy hooks up with Gryffindor girl. Doesn't do anything for me. How about you?
Hannah does have a few lines now and again, but if you blink, you'll miss her. She did (or at least I think it was her) stand up for Harry in the library in CoS, but other than that, she is pretty much a no-show personality.
Her comment also precludes Hermione and Ginny. Those two have been heavily guessed at since the first two books. Removing Fleur from the list is a bit problematic. While it is true that not many people espoused a Harry/Fleur 'ship, it still had been guessed somewhat regularly.
I feel good about it being Pansy because when I first thought of it, I did a google search. The only Harry/Pansy 'ships I could find were non-family oriented ones dealing with very strong girls and weak boys. Nobody -- and I do mean nobody -- seemed to be seriously suggesting it.
++++
Now, another supportive theory. It is a well-known dramatic and literary principle that the alpha male and the alpha female end up with each other. This means the strongest male and the strongest female will join. So, who are the strongest females?
Most people agree that the strongest young ladies are Hermione, Ginny, Pansy, Fleur, and Luna. Some might argue that Susan belongs to this list. Be that as it may, it does not include Millicent, Hannah, or Lavender.
+++++
Finally, if Harry and Pansy 'ship, think of all the thematic threads that will be neatly tied up.
The evils of prejudice.
Not judging a book by its cover.
The rekindling of the ancient Gryffindor/Slytherin bond.
Forgiveness and second chances.
It is our choices that define us, not our abilities.
Resolving Harry's long-time prejudice against Slytherin, even though the Hat said he would do well there.
Doing what is right as opposed to doing what is easy.
And we haven't even begun to discuss the hints of Pansy's personality that we get glimpses of.
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TomProffitt - Mar 12, 2005 5:29 pm (#760 of 1858)
Bullheaded empiricist
"So, assuming that she was talking about Harry's 'ship (by no means a foregone conclusion) ... " --- Prefect Marcus
This is the point in your argument where you lose me, Marcus. Which makes everything after irrelevant.
So, if you want me on your side of the fence that's where you're going to have to open the gate (I'm not climbing over).
EDIT: Also posted on "Harry's 'ship units the houses."
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Ponine - Mar 12, 2005 7:21 pm (#761 of 1858)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
I like your reasoning, Marcus, and I also agree with Tom in that the pairing in question a) may or may not be romantic and b) may or may not include Harry.
(The link to where the pairing quote is here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] )
But what to make of these quotes, Marcus? Is she just stringing us along? Anyone? Everyone?!?
Magwitch: If you could be any female character in Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone which one would you be? JK Rowling replies -> Hermione. Definitely not Pansy Parkinson. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I've met enough people I didn't like in my lifetime that I've got a fairly shrewd idea of what I want the baddies to be like. I think -- from the letters I get from the people your age -- I think nearly all of you will know a Draco Malfoy and I think the girls will almost certainly know a Pansy Parkinson. We all grow up with those sort of people and certainly as adults we all have met Lucius Malfoy and some of the other characters. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Hollywand - Mar 12, 2005 10:04 pm (#762 of 1858)
Gryffindor
A feeble suggestion about the 'heart of the series' remark---we have been told now that Hermione's and Krum's wands both have dragon heart string cores---could this detail signify a future relationship? If this relationship does develop, will the resolution of romantic jealousy be at the heart of book six and seven?
Doesn't Rowling explore the "unity of the houses" theme in the character relationship between Snape and Harry, and "don't judge a book by its cover" additionally with Hagrid's character? These themes seems to be prevalent enough without them being resolved by a romantic alliance between houses.
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Muggle Doctor - Mar 13, 2005 2:39 pm (#763 of 1858)
Ponine said:
Is she just stringing us along?
I think she is, but this does not reflect badly on her. We know the books are being written out of love for the story and the characters, and not just as a commercial exercise, but Rowling would be a fool if she didn't apply some good business sense (which I believe she has in abundance) to keep us interested/talking. If nothing else, we are owed the occasional crumb as compensation while we wait for her massive efforts to reach us.
She could do it in half the time if she really wanted, but do you want Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince or would you rather be satisfied with Hurried Pottage and the Half-Baked Sequel?
To me, 'heart of the series' is about love (a constant theme in Harry's battle with Voldemort, the only weapon to which the Dark Lord has no answer) and the acceptance of differences (remember how prevalent the 'mudblood/pureblood' thing is) - and I believe this means putting Ron the Pureblood from the large and loving family together with Hermione the Muggle-blooded only child, and taking care of both issues, leaving someone else for Harry. But I could yet be wrong.
Regards, MD
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Prefect Marcus - Mar 13, 2005 3:25 pm (#764 of 1858)
"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Mar 13, 2005 2:25 pm
TomProffitt - So, if you want me on your side of the fence that's where you're going to have to open the gate (I'm not climbing over).
An interesting analogy.
I originally started in the H/H field. I was quite happy there for a long time. However, I could not help but notice that nothing seemed to be growing in it. I looked around and discovered that the growing trees in the neighboring R/H field was starting to crowd out the light and water that had been getting into the H/H field. I tried valiently to sustain H/H, but I finally gave it up as a hopeless cause.
Having been ejected from the H/H field, I started looking around for a H/? field that showed promise. There were any number to chose from. Most of them had low fences with simple slats easy to climb over. I entered first one, then another, then another.
I entered the H/G one for a time, but never found it that satisfying. For one thing, I never found it all that different from the many other H/? gardens. It did show signs of vigor at one time, but it seemed the gardeners had lost interest and had moved on. Also, I have to admit to thinking it was laid out too much according to long established clichéd plans. Perhaps that prejudiced me against it, but none the less, I was never very happy or satisfied in it.
And so it was repeated, time after time, garden after garden. Most of them had low, easily scalable walls. I found some of them barely tended. Others showed initial promise but little else. There were novelties here and there to be sure, but nothing really satisfying. I began to despair.
Then something the head gardener said struck a new thought. What if the true H/? garden had been carefully hidden from view?
So I began looking around. I first noticed the high walls surrounding the H/Fleur garden. Surely this is the one the head gardener meant. So I scaled the wall and had a good look around, but soon grew disillusioned there, too. Yes, it had high walls, but what I found was uneven growth. New tender growth was struggling to establish itself with older, more mature growth. It didn't help that the two gardeners were no longer communicating with each otherr. The garden was going to weed. So I climbed back over the wall and resumed my search.
Then suddenly I spied in an out-of-the-way corner a high wall topped with barbed wire. The wall was surrounded by thorns, thistles, and noxious weeds. Who would want to approach it?
Well, I gritted my teeth and climbed over into the H/P garden. Much to my surprise, instead of finding the same old same old, I found carefully tended patches ready to burst forth in beauty and strength. I looked around, expecting to find the problems I had encountered in all the other gardens. To my surprise, there was nothing that wasn't easily dealt with.
I grew excited and called back over the fence to my fellow passers-by to come have a look. Many did brave the thorns and the barbed wire to have a peek. A large number jumped over and began closely examining the handiwork of the master gardener. A few joined me in revelling in what we had found. Others took the time to point out what they thought were flaws, and things that they felt uncomfortable with. I and my fellow H/P'ers looked closely at their concerns and found that their basic complaint was that the garden was still in an early state, and those thorns and high fence weren't very inviting. However, a fair number of those who pointed out the problem did admit to the potential of the garden and promised that if it continued to grow, they were be the first to come over. It was disappointing, but at least they had tried.
Then there are those that called back that they would only come to investigate if a gate through the fence was provided for them, otherwise they wouldn't even try. The fence is too high and the weeds too thick and threatening to even consider the effort. That saddens us, but that is their choice.
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TomProffitt - Mar 13, 2005 4:50 pm (#765 of 1858)
Bullheaded empiricist
The reason your fence is so nasty is that it has no gate. Your "gate" is the "relationship that goes to the heart of it all" quote. For your argument to work at all you must have interpreted this quote correctly. You have said nothing to convince me your interpretation of the quote is correct. I don't care how nice Happy Pansyland is. You have to have a way to get there. You don't. Don't show me Happy Pansyland, show me the gate in your fence.
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Muggle Doctor - Mar 13, 2005 6:32 pm (#766 of 1858)
Oh forget it, Tom. You'll never convince him he's wrong until he sees Harry walk down the aisle with Grawp's daughter. :-p
That being said: Prefect Marcus, I think your metaphors are lovely!
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Ponine - Mar 13, 2005 7:52 pm (#767 of 1858)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
OK - I would like to officially propose that our unlikely pairing has nothing to do with Harry at all, him being a young lad at the tender age of seventeen at the end of book seven (at least I hope and pray he will be). I say Narcissa is one we should keep an eye on.
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Snuffles - Mar 14, 2005 2:08 am (#768 of 1858)
Olivia
Prefect Marcus, you fight your corner very well and Im going to take a stroll past this garden but Im not going to brave the thorns or barbed wire just yet! Ive always like H/G but your posts have got me thinking (Dont like to do that too often, makes my brain hurt!) I think I will buy some gardening gloves and wait for book 6!
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Prefect Marcus - Mar 14, 2005 11:01 am (#769 of 1858)
"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Mar 14, 2005 10:30 am
TomProffitt - You have said nothing to convince me your interpretation of the quote is correct.
And you, Tom, have said nothing to convince me it is not. You have not proven that Rowling (a person not normally given to ramblings and wild swings of topics) did in fact switch topics mid-stream.
Occam's Razor states that one should not pile up complications. Claiming Rowling switched topics mid-stream is a complication because now you are forced to (a) prove that she did in fact switch, and (b) figure out what her new topic was. The former might be proven if her statements after the supposed switch do not make logical sense assuming the original topic. But unfortunately they do make logical sense. They are very consistent with the original topic. So to believe otherwise leaves one fighting Occam's Razor.
Now it is certainly within the bounds of Occam's Razor to argue that the hidden unusual romantic pairing that goes to the heart of the series might not involve Harry. You could then argue that I climbed the wrong spikey fence. But then you would be required to point the way to the proper fence.
+++++
Thank-you Snuffles, but as any H/P 'shipper will tell you, the 'ship really defends itself. If it didn't, we wouldn't be aboard it. Why defend a shrew?
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Sir Tornado - Mar 14, 2005 11:29 am (#770 of 1858)
Rebel without a cause.
Ok... I've seen "Occam's Razor" being mentioned time and again on H/P ship... my question: What exacty is Occam's Razor?
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Prefect Marcus - Mar 14, 2005 11:35 am (#771 of 1858)
"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Mar 14, 2005 10:37 am
Sir Tornado - What exacty is Occam's Razor?
My dictionary reads:
A scientific and philosophic rule that entities should not be multiplied unneccessily which is interpreted as requiring that the simplest of competing theories be preferred to the more complex.
In other words, the simplest and less complex solution is usually the right one.
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Steve Newton - Mar 14, 2005 11:55 am (#772 of 1858)
Librarian
Marcus, you say, "You have not proven that Rowling (a person not normally given to ramblings and wild swings of topics) did in fact switch topics mid-stream."
While you have convinced me that Pansy is a possibility it is you, the one making the hypothesis, that must produce the evidence. Until you directly address the issue, and I may have missed it, the burden of proof would seem to rest on you. At least that is how I think of the scientific method.
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Weeny Owl - Mar 14, 2005 12:18 pm (#773 of 1858)
Except if you apply Occam's Razor, it does make sense that it isn't romantic pairing she's talking about.
To the "unlikely pairings," she replied, "I don't really want to say as it will ruin all the fan sites."
She then went on to discuss theories. They have such fun with their theories ... and it is fun, it is fun. And some of them even get quite close. No-one has ever - I have gone and looked at some of it and no-one's ever ... There is one thing that if anyone guessed I would be really annoyed as it is kind of the heart of it all.
It sounds to me as if she answered the original question and then went on to theories in general. She wasn't rambling. She didn't switch subjects. She just segued into something.
She answered the question about pairings, mentioning fan sites, which then brought to mind theories in general, which then brought to mind the "thing" that is at the heart of the books.
If that had been from an interview after the first couple of books, I could see it, but it was right as the fifth book was ready for the stores, and by then, since she's stated she does check out fan sites, she would almost have to have seen nearly any possible pairing mentioned. It just doesn't sound as if the "thing" at the heart of it all is romantic.
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Prefect Marcus - Mar 14, 2005 12:56 pm (#774 of 1858)
"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Mar 14, 2005 12:00 pm
Steve Newton - While you have convinced me that Pansy is a possibility it is you, the one making the hypothesis, that must produce the evidence. Until you directly address the issue, and I may have missed it, the burden of proof would seem to rest on you. At least that is how I think of the scientific method.
A good point, Steve. A very good point.
Rowling has set up a formidible barrier between us and Pansy. She has been quite the shrew. The question is will Pansy continue being the shrew, or has Rowling been in fact carefully grooming her to become Harry's 'ship?
Now I am more than willing to lay out the evidence to support the latter; but I think it only fair to ask, "What evidence would satisfy you?" There is really quite a bit to support this theory. However, if Rowling has indeed been hiding and disguising the theory; the evidence, by definition, will be ambigious and subject to other interpretations.
Think of it in terms of Scabbers being an animagus, let alone Peter Petigrew. What unambiguous evidence can you point to before the Shrieking Shack that proves this theory? Or what unambiguous evidence can you point to before the end of GoF that proves that the Alaster Moody of GoF was really a DeathEater in disguise? Yes, when re-reading the books now with the advantage of hindsight, you can easily pick out the little hints and clues, but in each case there was little or no hard unambiguous evidence.
So I ask again, what evidence will satisfy you that this theory is valid?
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Eponine - Mar 14, 2005 1:27 pm (#775 of 1858)
The thing about this quote is that you rarely see it in its entirety, and to properly consider it evidence for anything you should be using the entire quote.
I don't really want to say as it will ruin all the fan sites. They have such fun with their theories ... and it is fun, it is fun. And some of them even get quite close. No-one has ever - I have gone and looked at some of it and no-one's ever ... There is one thing that if anyone guessed I would be really annoyed as it is kind of the heart of it all. And it kind of explains everything and no-one's quite got there but a couple of people have skirted it. So you know, I would be pretty miffed after thirteen or fourteen years of writing the books if someone just came along and said I think this will happen in book seven. Because it is too late, I couldn't divert now, everything has been building up to it, and I've laid all my clues.
If you are going to use this quote as an argument for anything, you must use the entire quote. This sentence...And it kind of explains everything and no-one's quite got there but a couple of people have skirted it. This sentence says to me that this thing will explain everything. This "heart of it all" is the reason for the series. There are people who have come close to it, but are not quite there yet.
Theorizing about a romantic pairing is not skirting around anything. Stating "I think Dobby and Winky are going to be together" is coming out and saying something. Stating "I feel that Lord Voldemort is after Harry because he is the heir of Gryffindor and the Slytherins and the Gryffindors have been battling it out for ages" when LV is actually after Harry because he is the heir of Gryffindor and there was a prophecy that only one family could survive would be skirting around a theory. THe very nature of theorizing about a pairing is extremely difficult to "skirt around".
There is also this part of Jo's response to consider - Because it is too late, I couldn't divert now, everything has been building up to it, and I've laid all my clues. As far as canon stands right now, IMO there is nothing about Pansy that demands a secondary explanation beyond what we've seen. She could show up in a "Death Nibblers" t-shirt, and I don't think it would be a complete shock to people.
It is my opinion that this quote is not referring to any kind of romantic entanglement. It could be referencing a non-romantic partnership, but I don't think it's likely. I find the "it kind of explains everything," the "a couple of people have skirted around it," and the "it's too late, I couldn't divert..." to be pointing away from romance. First, I don't think any romantic pairing is going to "explain everything." Second, I don't think you can "skirt around" a romance. Third, if "everything has been building up to it" then there hasn't been a very solid foundation built yet.
Whatever it is she's talking about in this quote, if she's laid so many clues that she "couldn't divert now," I would expect the theory to make sense now. I don't think we need to wait for HBP for more clues. This is not to say that HBP won't contain more clues, but I would expect to be able to look at books 1-5 and pick out these clues that explain it all.
So that was a lot of rambling to say that I don't think she's talking about romance.
Edited to add: Yes, when re-reading the books now with the advantage of hindsight, you can easily pick out the little hints and clues, but in each case there was little or no hard unambiguous evidence.
So I ask again, what evidence will satisfy you that this theory is valid? - Marcus
Last time I read through the books, I read with the idea of your theory in mind. I tried to have an open mind, and trust me, it was hard to do. However, I still came to the conclusion that there is nothing in these books to suggest that Pansy is any more than what we have been presented with - a cruel person who takes pleasure in the misfortune and pain of others, someone who not only particpates passively but also actively in the belittlement and abuse of others.
What evidence do I need? The ONLY thing that could ever convince me that this theory is valid would be to see it in print, and even then I would wonder who replaced my HP books with the bootleg editions.
Edited once again: Thanks Ponine! (And yes, I do believe you used that correctly)
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Ponine - Mar 14, 2005 1:28 pm (#776 of 1858)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Marcus - Your reply to my post 761 would do me a lot of good. I can see your point, and enjoy your reasoning, which I find solid. However, Rowlings quotes in the above mentioned post really, in my opinion, puts a damper on P/H, I think.
Eponine - we posted at the same time - I really like your post, and think there is a lot of merit to it (is that an expression, and if so, did I use it right?).
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Prefect Marcus - Mar 14, 2005 1:48 pm (#777 of 1858)
"Anyone can cook"
Now, now Eponine and Ponine, if you are going to go with the full quote, go with the context, as well. What was the question that brought forth the reply, and what was its context?
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Eponine - Mar 14, 2005 1:53 pm (#778 of 1858)
JEREMY PAXMAN: So there will be some pairing up will there in this book?
JK ROWLING: Well in the fullness of time.
JEREMY PAXMAN: Unlikely pairings? Not Hermione and Draco Malfoy or anything like that?
JK ROWLING: I don't really want to say as it will ruin all the fan sites. They have such fun with their theories ... and it is fun, it is fun. And some of them even get quite close. No-one has ever - I have gone and looked at some of it and no-one's ever ... There is one thing that if anyone guessed I would be really annoyed as it is kind of the heart of it all. And it kind of explains everything and no-one's quite got there but a couple of people have skirted it. So you know, I would be pretty miffed after thirteen or fourteen years of writing the books if someone just came along and said I think this will happen in book seven. Because it is too late, I couldn't divert now, everything has been building up to it, and I've laid all my clues.
There you go, Marcus.
Even with the question, I still come to the same conclusion. That is, the "heart of it all" is not a romantic pairing. You have your theories, and I have mine. I'm not going to convince you, nor are you going to convince me. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree, agreed?
Now, how about Dobby/Winky? I think that one's completely canon. He took care of her when she was drunk, after all.
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Steve Newton - Mar 14, 2005 2:51 pm (#779 of 1858)
Librarian
Marcus, the full quotation is better when debating this. Its the 'one thing' phrase which, I think, does major damage to your position. If she had said 'one' then it would clearly mean the theory of a relationship. The 'thing' part to me means a change of subject. I've read it many times and that is my impression.
Sorry to be such a nitpicker on the words.
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TomProffitt - Mar 14, 2005 4:46 pm (#780 of 1858)
Bullheaded empiricist
Ibid
I'm generally not one to say, "ditto," Marcus, but a number of previous posters have adequately expressed my doubts regarding "The Quote."
I am of the belief that you have misinterpreted Jo's answer. For you to convince me otherwise I believe you would have to find other quotes or references from Jo which indicate that a romantic pairing is central to her main plot. If I recall correctly Jo has said on more than one occasion (to paraphrase) "... the series isn't really about that kind of thing, but what's life with out a little romance?"
To convince me, Marcus, you need to show me more quotes.
I'm gonna go look for the quote I paraphrased. I will either add with an edit or a second post.
EDIT: This is one of the quotes, not as strong for my position as I had recalled, but still what it implies doesn't help the H/P position very much either. I'd call this one a wash.
polly weasley: Will Harry fall for another girl in book six, or will he be too busy for romance? JK Rowling replies -> He'll be busy, but what's life without a little romance?
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Tomoé - Mar 15, 2005 4:39 pm (#781 of 1858)
Back in business
I found another interesting quote about dates :
J.K. Rowlingquestion22: Nah ... don't like that one. Oh I like this one: "Do Harry and Hermione have a date?"
No! They're, they're very platonic friends. But I won't answer for anyone else, nudge, nudge, wink, wink. (National Press Club, October 20, 1999)
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Cuivienen - Mar 15, 2005 6:49 pm (#782 of 1858)
Tomoe, I think that that quote was hinting at Harry and Cho going on a date, which we finally saw in OotP.
Actually, it's odd, that quote would most likely be referring to GoF, yet the only date of significance in GoF was Hermione and Viktor, and date is a rather strong term for them.
Hmm.
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Eponine - Mar 15, 2005 7:58 pm (#783 of 1858)
That's another quote that has been debated ad nauseum. Some say it's referring only to GoF, but others (including myself) think it's for the duration of the series.
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Tomoé - Mar 15, 2005 10:21 pm (#784 of 1858)
Back in business
Eponine -> That's another quote that has been debated ad nauseum.
Which is to show how off of this subject I am. ^_^
I'm looking for a specific quote on quick-quotes (not related to romance) but don't remember the exact wording, so I have to read the whole site. I just happen to stumble on that line and put it here with no definite thought. Maybe I should had get some sleep instead. ^_~
(by the way, Eponine, I was pretty please with you take of unlikely pairing quote)
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Eponine - Mar 16, 2005 4:50 am (#785 of 1858)
Tomoe, I don't think that quote has been picked apart here quite as much as other places on the web.
OT, what quote are you looking for? If you can remember part of it or a few distinctive words, just typing that in might help.
Oh, and thanks!
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Loopy Lupin - Mar 16, 2005 8:01 am (#786 of 1858)
I've been posting for a while here and, actually, I don't recall that quote being discussed that much. It certainly does some damage to the Harry/Hermione 'shippers though.
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Tomoé - Mar 16, 2005 8:48 am (#787 of 1858)
Back in business
OT, I'm looking for the interview in which Jo said she kills the characters she likes. I don't remember any word linked to that interview that would give me less than hundreds of matching results.
Back on topic, too bad the question was asked in present tense, "Will Harry and Hermione have a date?" would have been more useful. Though I do believe Jo though in future tense, but that's matter of opinion (plus, it helps my own 'ship ^_~)
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Eponine - Mar 16, 2005 4:26 pm (#788 of 1858)
The very platonic quote has been bandied about on many places on the web, but I don't think it's been addressed here that much.
I've seen this quote explained away in several creative ways.
First, (and the most plausible) she was only referring to GoF so no other books count.
Second, she was only referring to GoF or she was lying because Harry and Hermione do have a date in OotP. Where? Why, when they met up with Rita and Luna at the Three Broomsticks. Quite romantic.
Third, (my personal favorite) the "platonic" definition she was using is referring to the deep, spiritual, nonsexual love defined by Plato. Therefore Harry and Hermione have a love that transcends the physical and goes straight to the spiritual.
I have nothing against literary teenagers falling in love or finding their future spouse in the course of their fictional teenagerhood, but to portray two teenagers in a series that has up until this point been very true to life in regards to relationships as having a love so deep they don't need to be attracted to one another is quite alien to her writing style so far. Personally, I prefer to think that by "platonic" she meant, they like/love each other, but not in that way.
So, nobody else thinks Dobby/Winky is totally canon?
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Muggle Doctor - Mar 16, 2005 11:00 pm (#789 of 1858)
So, nobody else thinks Dobby/Winky is totally canon?
Usually it's the girl who tries to rescue the dissolute alcoholic male. So no, I don't think it is.
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wwtMask - Mar 17, 2005 8:06 am (#790 of 1858)
Would winky even have Dobby anyway? She doesn't respect him for being a payed employee and thinks he is a disgrace to House elves that is even lower than she (a dismissed house elf) is. I can only think that she and Dobby remain friends due to history with each other and make an effort to ignore the aspects of one another that they find unpleasant.
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Puck - Mar 17, 2005 7:56 pm (#791 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Winky is in no place for that kind of relationship.
I wonder about Harry. Voldemort used Sirius to get to him, and as a result Sirius id dead. He may have been screeming about Snape, but he's sure to come to a point of blaming himself. I can see him backing away from those in cares about at some point in time, in an attempt to protect them. He would temporarily become a loner, which would give him some common ground with Knott.
Since his ability to love (on any level, not just romantically) is the source of his potential power over Voldemort, Haarry will eventually have to take a chance and open his heart once again.
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Chemyst - Mar 18, 2005 8:02 pm (#792 of 1858)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Winky is in no place for that kind of relationship. - Puck
That is a true statement for book 5. But girls often fall for their compassionate rescuers, so by book 7, who knows?
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Muggle Doctor - Mar 20, 2005 6:22 pm (#793 of 1858)
Thinking about the Sorting Hat as an intelligent agent capable of making decisions as to someone's worth got me thinking about the Goblet of Fire.
With the exception of Harry, whose name was more or less coaxed from it by Barty Crouch Jr, what sort of decision making process did the Goblet go through to pick the champions? Did it pick one from each school at random, or was it somehow able to divine the qualities of the potential contestants?
If the latter, it is to a certain extent an intellgent agent like the Hat, although its 'output' is limited to the expulsion of the pieces of paper with the contestants' names on them.
In this case, I have the ultimate 'ship: Sorting Hat/Goblet.
(Crossposted on the Sorting Hat thread).
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KWeldon - Mar 21, 2005 11:27 am (#794 of 1858)
In this case, I have the ultimate 'ship: Sorting Hat/Goblet.
This is the funniest thing I have read on this forum in a long time.
Long may they find happiness together! Poor two-dimensional Marauders' Map----always a bridesmaid, never a bride.
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Puck - Mar 21, 2005 7:52 pm (#795 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I am sure Fred and George will soon invent a counterpart for the map.
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Gregory welch - Mar 23, 2005 12:11 pm (#796 of 1858)
Hey guys,
I know this is not the right place to ask this but I need help. Does anyone know where I can find that list of the students in harrys year thst tells their heritage? I lost my last link to the list and can't find it again.
Thanks
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Tomoé - Mar 23, 2005 2:03 pm (#797 of 1858)
Back in business
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ema fewett - Mar 24, 2005 2:26 pm (#798 of 1858)
Hi! OK, so this is a really random question and the more I started thinking about it, the more curious I was. In one of JKR's interview, one of the questions asked was, would Harry find it harder to kiss Cho or to fight Voldemort? While I know some people may find this question extremely easy, I'm not really sure what the answer is. I know that Cho and Harry are not going to go out again but during the time that he did go out......anyway....what do you guys think?
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Puck - Mar 24, 2005 7:29 pm (#799 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I think Cho. I mean, there is that whole "should I shouldn't I" uncertainty in that kind of situation. With Voldemort it is cut and dry- he HAS to fight. He seems to have strong instincts when it comes to battle, plus he welcomes someone coming to the rescue. He has no clue when it comes to girls, and would be mortified if someone walked in the room.
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Tomoé - Mar 26, 2005 10:31 am (#800 of 1858)
Back in business
Here's another quote:
sammyohyeah asks: Is it just me, or was something going on between Ron and Hermione during the last half of GOF? I love your books, btw, and two of them I've read stright through cover to cover in under 24 hours.
jkrowling_bn: well done on the reading speed!
yes, something's 'going on'...
but Ron doesn't realise it yet...
typical boy (AOL Chat, October 20th 2000)
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 801 to 850)
Elanor Sun May 15, 2011 9:51 am
Puck - Mar 26, 2005 7:47 pm (#801 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
So, when will Ron come to this realization? Sometime before he's 50, perhaps?
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ema fewett - Mar 31, 2005 6:44 am (#802 of 1858)
I'm really excited and am waiting for HBP but I noticed that Ginny, as well as Ron and Hermione are on the countdown add campaign from Scolastic!!!! This gives me hope for a H/G ship!!!!
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scoop2172000 - Mar 31, 2005 8:45 am (#803 of 1858)
Emma, I've always held out for a Harry/Ginny relationship.
Yesterday, I was convinced the girl on the right was Ginny, an opinion I posted on the Half-Blood Prince thread. But this morning, based on some convincing posts by other members, I'm willing to concede that perhaps the redhead is a young Lily.
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Liz Mann - Mar 31, 2005 1:26 pm (#804 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I think it was Ginny. Ginny is on the coverart but not Harry's other new close friends (Neville and Luna). Hmmm... Well, I'll read it in that way, anyway. It's either Ginny or Lily.
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Puck - Mar 31, 2005 8:28 pm (#805 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Actually, I think the fact that it's difficult to figure out which one it is says alot about Harry's potential with Ginny. I think she and Lily to have way more in common than just hair color. Isn't there an old song about wanting a girl just like the one that married dear old dad? Harry needs a girl who can put in in his place. Hermione always starts with "Now, don't get mad Harry.." Too wimpy! Ginny gives it to him straight.
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coolbeans3131 - Apr 7, 2005 6:23 am (#806 of 1858)
I'm sure we've all read Jo's new entries. The thing that jumped out at me was her answer to the question about if she liked "Half-Blood Prince". Her answer included "if nobody else likes it (and some won’t)". The "some won't" got me worried. Will it be because of more deaths was my first thought. Then it stuck me that it could be about shipping. If either R/H or H/H happens in this books, there will be some ticked-off people. Did anyone else have that thought?
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Solitaire - Apr 7, 2005 7:00 am (#807 of 1858)
Edited by S.E. Jones Apr 7, 2005 8:35 am
Didn't Jo say there would be "a little romance" in the book? Well, that sounds like it will be a natural part of the story, not the focus. I can't believe she would blow a significant part of such a long-awaited book on 'shipping. And if it is not a significant part, then it probably wouldn't bother me who 'ships whom. The most important relationships in the book at the moment--for me, anyway--seem to be Harry/Voldemort and Harry/Dumbledore.
Solitaire
->Just edited for clarity.<- S.E. Jones
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Tomoé - Apr 7, 2005 9:11 am (#808 of 1858)
Back in business
Solitaire, you likely remembered this quote:
polly weasley: Will Harry fall for another girl in book six, or will he be too busy for romance?
JK Rowling replies -> He'll be busy, but what's life without a little romance? (World Book Day Chat, March 4, 2004)
I don't know, coolbeans, I won't drop Harry Potter is one of my theories turn unaccurate, and certainly not if my shipping theories are unaccurate. I predicted HRH would ultimately date outside the trio, but I found three lines in JKR's interviews that strongly point to H/R, I didn't leave the forum and turn myself in a Star Wars fan out of frustration and it won't prevent me to buy HbP or HP7. I think (a) major character(s) will die(s).
Edit: I just realise that I have yet to post the last two quotes. Here it goes:
Zsenya - Does Hermione like Ron as more than a friend?
The answer to that is in Goblet of Fire, Zsenya! (Comic relief chat)
Couric: “Any snogging with Hermione?”
Rowling: (slight frown) “Hermione and Harry! Do you think so?”
Couric: “No I’m kidding.
Rowling: “Ron and Hermione, I would say, have more potential (or did she say “tension”) there” (A/N: I know this is a crucial sentence, but I had some trouble understanding her here— she mumbles the sentence a little. This is my best interpretation! Either way, R/H shippers around the world are grinning!) (Dateline NBC, June 20th, 2003)
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coolbeans3131 - Apr 7, 2005 10:01 am (#809 of 1858)
Solitaire said- Didn't Jo say there would be "a little romance" in the book? Well, that sounds like it will be a natural part of the story, not the focus. I can't believe she would blow a significant part of such a long-awaited book on 'shipping.
I didn't mean to imply it would be the focus.
Also from Solitaire- And if it is not a significant part, then it probably wouldn't bother me who 'ships whom.
There would probably be "some" who it would bother. I was thinking that Jo was trying to get us worried about deaths, and maybe it was something less worrisome.
Tomoe, I wasn't suggesting anyone here would throw their books in the garbage and be finished with Harry if their ship didn't work out. I was just thinking that some people (emphasis some) have strong feelings, and are so sure they are right, that they might be a little peeved to find out they were wrong. I don't mean anyone on this forum.
I guess I would just prefer that to any of my favorite characters being killed off. No offense to anyone.
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KWeldon - Apr 7, 2005 10:30 am (#810 of 1858)
I agree with coolbeans' interpretation. Any ship will be a minor subplot, but even a confirmation of H/R (or not) is going to upset quite a few diehard shippers.
I also will be much more disappointed with character death than my ship not sailing.
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Tomoé - Apr 7, 2005 10:35 am (#811 of 1858)
Back in business
coolbeans -> Tomoe, I wasn't suggesting anyone here would throw their books in the garbage and be finished with Harry if their ship didn't work out. I was just thinking that some people (emphasis some) have strong feelings, and are so sure they are right, that they might be a little peeved to find out they were wrong. I don't mean anyone on this forum.
I never though you were suggesting that, I thought Jo was suggesting that, but re-reading the line, I'm not so sure anymore ... Here's the quote:
Book six does what I wanted it to do and even if nobody else likes it (and some won’t) [...]
It does sounds like HbP have a purpose in the series (obviously), the book fullfil that purpose, but some might not like the book in itself. I could have get it wrong, I did it before.
Edit: It sounds like the upsetting thing is in the very hearth of the book, a major theme, or the tone of the book (like OoP which was a succession of frustrations, injustices and mistakes).
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Muggle Doctor - Apr 17, 2005 7:33 pm (#812 of 1858)
Edited by S.E. Jones Apr 19, 2005 12:45 am
Maybe all those who are crying endless tears of blood as their 'ship is torpedoed by JKR will get a life, and realise that it is only a series of novels! I've been backing Harry-Hannah (brief fling) and Harry/Luna or Harry/Ginny (implying Ron-Hermione) for permanence, for a while, but I won't be gnashing my teeth if it turns out not to happen. Nor will I be raising my middle finger in the direction of all others if I turn out to be right.
Hey, if we all make enough predictions, chances are that one of them will be (close to) the truth! So don't just stand there; get out there and start guessing!
->Muggle Doctor, please be careful. You are bordering on offensive here. Directness is all good and fine, but there is something to be said for tact.<- S.E. Jones
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Daisy Pennifold - Apr 19, 2005 2:38 pm (#813 of 1858)
The thing that I keep reminding myself is that these are essentially high school kids. Any romance they may have does not have to be a lifetime thing - how many of you are with your teenage boy/girlfriend still? I know I'm not.
I realize that many of the kids at Hogwarts are much closer to one another than I ever was to the kids at my high school, what with what they have been through, and boarding together, etc., but they can (and most likely will) form adult relationships with people they meet post-Hogwarts. So it doesn't really matter who dates who right now. I just don't want any relationship talk getting in the way of the plot!
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MickeyCee3948 - Apr 19, 2005 2:57 pm (#814 of 1858)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Unless the ship is part of the plot!
Mikie
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Solitaire - Apr 19, 2005 4:43 pm (#815 of 1858)
Wizarding kids do seem to pair off earlier than Muggle kids--if James and Lily are any indicator--but perhaps that is because the "Wizarding dating pool" is so much smaller. Unless they have the opportunity to meet kids from schools abroad or choose to expand into Muggle dating, our Hogwarts kids may feel they have met most of the people who could become potential mates ... so why not get on with it!
I'm not saying this is so ... just that it might be how things are.
Solitaire
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haymoni - Apr 19, 2005 9:14 pm (#816 of 1858)
The war was on - don't people tend to get married younger during such stressful times?
That would go along with Solitare's comment - "why not get on with it?" If you stand a fair chance of dying, you might want to start living a bit sooner.
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Solitaire - Apr 19, 2005 11:41 pm (#817 of 1858)
Haymoni, I think that happens, too. During a war people often tend to marry on less of an acquaintance than they might if things were more settled.
Solitaire
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S.E. Jones - Apr 20, 2005 4:02 pm (#818 of 1858)
Let it snow!
Were Arthur and Molly married during wartime? What about Lucius and Narcissa? The war with Grindelwald ended in 1945. The war with Voldemort didn't start up until about 1970, when James and Lily were starting school...
Does any of that information tell us anything about early marriages?
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Ponine - Apr 20, 2005 4:33 pm (#819 of 1858)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Well, I think it is important to consider how much has happened in Muggle World as well - I know that in 1966-1970, the average age marry was 26 for men and 23 for women. As of 2003, it was 32 and 30... Things change, and I think that by looking at fine young men such as Bill, Charlie, (Percy), Fred and George may serve as indicators that they do in the wizarding world as well. Hmmm...I suppose you know more about Norwegian marriages than you'd ever thought you would...
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I Am Used Vlad - Apr 20, 2005 6:50 pm (#820 of 1858)
I Am Almighty!
I would not be at all surprised if the Potters' early marriage is related to the first Voldemort war. Something had to have happened in a short period of time to change James' behavior and Lily's attitude towards him. The Malfoys' marriage, which must have been at least relatively early, could have been influenced by the war as well. Pure-bloods who supported Voldemort may have paired up to show that they were truly behind the cause. Based on the age of their children, the fact that they were boarding school sweethearts, and our total lack of knowledge about their age when married or how long it was before they started having kids, I assume the Weasley's marriage was not influenced by a war.
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Solitaire - Apr 23, 2005 11:04 pm (#821 of 1858)
If Bill is about ten years older than Harry, then Arthur and Molly would probably be at least eight years older than James and Lily, assuming they married right out of Hogwarts and had Bill within a year of marrying ... right? I don't think we know their exact ages, but I suppose Molly and Arthur could have married even earlier--before Voldemort had really begun his Reign of Terror in the WW.
Solitaire
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Tomoé - Apr 25, 2005 7:46 am (#822 of 1858)
Back in business
You right Solitaire, Bill should be born on November 28th in 1970
(1980/81=Ron; -2 years -> 1977/78=F&G; -2 years -> 1975-76=Percy; -3 years -> 1972/73=Charlie; -2 years -> 1970/71=Bill),
so Molly and Arthur should have been in Hogwarts in the sixties. If I remember well, 1970 is the year we estimated Voldemort came back (thought, I don't remember excatly why), so married or not, Molly was likely pregnant or mother when they first earn of Lord Voldemort.
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mike miller - Apr 25, 2005 9:02 am (#823 of 1858)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
There does not seem to a Wizarding World equivalent to college, so it would make sense that more long-term relationships begin at Hogwarts. There may be more "on the job" training; i.e. Charlie and Bill Weasley, and a few select programs like Auror training. If the Mininstry of Magic does not have any regulations against dating in the workplace it is most likely the next place where people meet their partners.
Arthur and Molly were definately seeing each other while at Hogwarts; and, I suspect James and Lily's relationship had changed by the time they left.
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Muggle Doctor - Apr 25, 2005 7:40 pm (#824 of 1858)
Remember that the wizarding world seems to be socially "behind" the Muggle world in many ways, or at least very naive to it; workplace dating regulations for the wizarding world are IMO a long way off. Harry, Hermione & Ron's KIDS (however the pairings work out) might have to worry about it, but Our Heroes (and Heroines) themselves will not.
I suppose that the average witch or wizard will probably try to marry into the magical world first if they can, because it's what they know, it's who they see every day, and there are no messy explanations to be given or secrets to be kept. \ If one is a pureblood racist jerk, one finds others like oneself who will only marry pureblood racist jerks: on this score, it's a surprise that the whole school is not crawling with the offspring of the Malfoys, Crabbes and Goyles, because I'd have thought they'd want to do everything in their power to increase the number of pureblood wizards (and racist jerks, of course). Instead, the Malfoys, Crabbes, Goyles, Notts and such (all the Voldemort-allied Dark Wizards) all seem to be having only one child each (and all boys for some convenient reason). At this rate, it doesn't even matter if Voldemort wins: with large families like the Weasleys gone, with other pureblood muggle-lovers dead, and with no new magical talent permitted in from the Muggle world, the Voldemort/Malfoy vision of the wizarding world will be terminally sterile. They'll un-breed themselves out of existence.
The Dark Side will destroy itself, and all because its disciples are unreasonable about who they choose (or choose not) to 'ship with.
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Daisy Pennifold - Apr 26, 2005 10:40 am (#825 of 1858)
Muggle Doctor, in reply to part of your post:
I assume that the reason the pure-blood families prefer only one male heir is so that they won't have to divide their estate/money, thus weakening the power of their name.
If Lucius had seven kids, like the Weasleys, he would almost have to leave each of them something, even if the oldest male ("Bill Malfoy") received the bulk of the estate. This would leave Bill with less. When Bill dies, he has to divide his estate among his offspring - the more kids he has, the less money/property/stock dividends each one gets, see?
It is hard to remain a powerful wealthy family with inherited money when you have to divvy it up with each generation. With only one heir, such as Draco, there is no division. The Malfoy name stays powerful.
However, with fewer heirs, there is more risk of the estate leaving the family. In the Black Plague in Europe of the 1300's, so many people died in a short period of time that lines of succession went all awry, bourgeois merchant citizens became wealthy, powerful families died out completely, and the serfs were, for the first time, able to demand fair wages for their work, creating the "Middle Class."
I agree with you that the age of the pure-blood wizard is at an end, and with a win from Voldemort, wizards will once again reside only in fairy tales. ; )
Of course, the pure-blood girls are going to be able to make some (financially) great matches, as the boys do seem to outnumber them! Can't you imagine Draco and Theodore Nott fighting for Ginny's hand in a few years? Poor girl!
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Muggle Doctor - Apr 28, 2005 7:21 am (#826 of 1858)
If Lucius had seven kids, like the Weasleys, he would almost have to leave each of them something, even if the oldest male ("Bill Malfoy") received the bulk of the estate.
True, but regardless of the number of children each has, Lucius is still fantastically wealthy compared to Arthur. Sure, if Arthur & Molly had only ever had (say) Ron and Ginny, they'd have new uniforms, new books and shiny new accessories to go to school with each year (and probably Nimbus 2000s to ride), but remember that Lucius bought the ENTIRE Slytherin quidditch team a Nimbus 2001 EACH, and it probably didn't even touch the sides of his small-change jar.
Besides, Lucius - being Lucius - is not about to do ANYTHING that would dilute his power, even if he did have seven children. "Draco," he would say, "is flesh of my flesh, blood of my blood and heir to my power - anyone who wants more than lip service from either of us will have to show that they are worthy of it." Which would make Draco a harder and more capable young man; simply to keep his life, let alone his status as his father's favoured son.
And as for
I assume that the reason the pure-blood families prefer only one male heir is so that they won't have to divide their estate/money, thus weakening the power of their name.
remember that none of the Death Eater families (the racist purebloods, as opposed to the accepting ones like the Weasleys, who hardly stopped after the first son, did they?) are nice people. So they're going to embrace things like sexism, male primogeniture and rubbish like that. In fact, they are very much Rowling's metaphor for the nastiest traits of humankind.
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Steve Newton - Apr 28, 2005 7:28 am (#827 of 1858)
Librarian
I thought that in the UK they had the practice of primogeniture. That is, the oldest son gets everything. Large families do not dilute the wealth particularly.
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Muggle Doctor - Apr 28, 2005 3:24 pm (#828 of 1858)
Yes, but not all (at least in the Wizarding World) are going to be absolutely rigid about it. Certainly royal succession is by primogeniture, but inheritance does not HAVE to be.
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S.E. Jones - Apr 29, 2005 9:25 am (#829 of 1858)
Let it snow!
There is also the practice of giving land to the oldest son, along with the largest percentage of the money, then giving each subsequent son an increasingly smaller percent.
I'd say that the family money could be split up, but it would take several generations. It does seem that older families have fewer children, but if you look at the Weasleys, not only does Arthur have seven children, but he, himself, was one of three sons.
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Betelgeuse Black - Apr 29, 2005 10:00 am (#830 of 1858)
OK, I'm coming out and declaring my 'ship support. I tend to take the obvious clues so please forgive me if I dismiss something I consider to be unimportant.
I think the Harry-Ginny ship will occur at some point. We know that Ginny still likes Harry but she gave up on him since he wouldn't pay attention. I think that now Ginny is being herself, Harry will see what an interesting girl she is. Harry likes the Weasley's in general and Ginny seems to be a lot like a mellow Fred or George.
I noticed in OotP something that I think forshadows this. On the Hogwarts Express the group was discussing Ginny and Michael Corner's breakup. Ron said that hopefully she would chose someone better next time and glanced up at Harry.
I have more reasons but I'll save them as a "protego" when the bat-bogey hexes start raining down on me. :-) Also, I have to go anyway.
Betelgeuse Edit: I posted this twice by accident so I deleted one of them.
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MickeyCee3948 - Apr 29, 2005 1:24 pm (#831 of 1858)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Betelgeuse Black I won't sent any hexes your way and I will try to stand by and deflect any that are sent after you. I agree with you.
Mikie
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Puck - Apr 29, 2005 7:45 pm (#832 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I totally support the Harry-Ginny 'ship. It makes the most sense. The Weasley's have been like a family for Harry, his first real family. Nice if he could become an official part of it. Funny, Ron like a brother to him, but Ginny not like a sister. Hermione acts as a sister to Harry, but not to Ron. Sorry to all the H/H shippers, but I just don't see the spark there.
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Sticky Glue - Apr 30, 2005 12:50 am (#833 of 1858)
Yep, I agree with you Puck.
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frogface - Apr 30, 2005 2:49 am (#834 of 1858)
Me too, but I'm often too imtimdated to share my opinion's on this thread! I'm deffinatly for H/G and Hr/R and have been since my first read of the series.
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mike miller - Apr 30, 2005 8:31 am (#835 of 1858)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Frogface - There's no reason to be intimated to share your thoughts and opinions on any of the threads here. We're generally pretty nice and willing to give anyone room to voice their opinon.
Look at me for example, I'm the lone sailor on the Harry/Tonks ship! For clarities sake, Harry and Tonks won't really get together during the heart of the story, just after they have worked together as Aurors for several years.
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Denise P. - Apr 30, 2005 8:34 am (#836 of 1858)
Ravenclaw Pony
Nope, I have stepped on the Harry/Tonks 'ship briefly I agree, if it were to happen, it would still be many years in the future but I can see it happening. Of course, I also think a Harry/Luna 'ship has a good chance to sail off in the future too.
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Weeny Owl - Apr 30, 2005 8:45 am (#837 of 1858)
Do you really, Denise? If it isn't Ron and Hermione, I can see Ron with Luna. Granted, she freaks him out right now, but she seems a bit captivated by him.
Although I suppose if it is Ron and Hermione, Harry could end up with Luna. I don't see that one quite as much because I see Luna as more of a kindred spirit who has the experience of losing a parent, but it still being just that one thing they really have in common.
Then again, with Luna, anything is possible.
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Denise P. - Apr 30, 2005 8:57 am (#838 of 1858)
Ravenclaw Pony
Yep, I think Tonks would balance Harry out nicely. She doesn't seem overly impressed with the fact he is The Boy Who Lived and he appreciates that. Right now, a 'ship between them would never work. I agree with Mike, if it were to happen, it would be at least 7-10 years down the road.
I also can see Luna and Harry developing a 'ship. Again, she balances him out and doesn't treat him as anything out of the ordinary other than a boy. She is not in awe of him and doesn't put him up on any kind of a shrine.
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mike miller - Apr 30, 2005 10:27 am (#839 of 1858)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Denise - You're welcome aboard any time, and for as long as you'd to sail (on again, off again is O.K. too). I'll admit it's a "long shot" ship, but JKR seems fond of "long shots".
I agree that Luna does not treat Harry in any special way, but she just seems too "out there" for Harry. Luna could come more down to earth as we move through HBP and book 7. There's always the Pansy options, but we'd need to see a change of heart very early in HBP to make it plausible to say nothing of overcoming Hermione's influence.
It's very hard to identify any of the female characters that we know anything about that would fit well with Harry (sorry to all those 'shipping the many other possible partners). I just don't see Harry's 'ship playing an important role in the story. Other 'ships, however, (Ron and Hermione) could play out in many diferent ways in the story.
I will say this, I think Ron and Hermione have more of a 'ship together than they themselves even realize; and, I don't think it would bother Harry in the least!
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Finn BV - Apr 30, 2005 2:22 pm (#840 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
I'm not overly offended by Hr/R 'shippers (Ron will just never get anybody), but Harry-Ginny is WAY too overrated AND it already happened, in some people's minds (in CoS). *ducks the dungbombs*
I am, personally, still for Harry/CHO, I think when Cho said "That was really brave of you, Harry" re the interview with Rita, she wants to get him back in away.
You can say that she lost him and she doesn't deserve him back, but Harry, in a sense, still wants her.
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Eponine - Apr 30, 2005 2:58 pm (#841 of 1858)
From the World Book Day Chat March 2004
eastbrook4: why did Harry have to split up with Cho Chang?
JK Rowling replies -> That's life, I'm afraid. They were never going to be happy, it was better that it ended early!
I believe that the Harry/Cho relationship has run its course.
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Finn BV - Apr 30, 2005 3:13 pm (#842 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Ah, I see.
*rethinks 'ship plan*
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Solitaire - Apr 30, 2005 3:29 pm (#843 of 1858)
Harry and Ginny has already happened? Hm ... I guess I was sleeping, because I missed it. Ginny certainly had a crush on Harry, but he never noticed her as more than Ron's little sister. I don't really think of that as a 'ship.
Harry is a bit more aware of Ginny as an individual in her own right in OotP; however, I still do not see anything of a 'ship as having occurred yet. I certainly do see potential for a 'ship between these two, however. Ginny has spirit and fire, much as Harry does. I like her in a 'ship with him better than Luna.
I like Luna and believe that temperaments like hers can occasionally be soothing; but her unending calmness would get on my nerves. I'm a relatively quiet person, but I am also very emotional. When I'm wound up about something, I get very annoyed when the people to whom I look for support and encouragement stay calm, passive, and rational. Remember how angry Harry became in OotP when Dumbledore stayed calm?
We do need those rational voices in our lives; however, having one's partner of choice ALWAYS the calm voice of reason can be incredibly annoying to someone whose makeup is emotional, even volatile. I see this as a big obstacle to a Harry/Luna 'ship. Conversely, I see Ginny's temperament as a plus in her column. I am not really a H/G 'shipper, but I certainly do see its potential.
I realize others will see what I perceive as Harry/Luna obstacles as pluses to that 'ship--which just goes to show that it's "different strokes for different folks."
Solitaire
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Weeny Owl - Apr 30, 2005 3:41 pm (#844 of 1858)
I agree with you in a lot of ways, Solitaire.
I see Harry and Ginny as much more probable than Harry and Luna, but I do see a possibility of him with Luna.
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Choices - Apr 30, 2005 5:52 pm (#845 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I could live with Harry and Ginny because I really want to see Harry as a part of that family. He would fit right in and both Mrs. Weasley and Ginny would love and adore him. He so deserves that!!
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Puck - Apr 30, 2005 7:31 pm (#846 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Hey, my brother married one of my old school mates, so it does happen! I can see him having another relationship for a bit before evetnually going with Ginny. Afterall, Ginny already has another boyfriend. Maybe it's his turn to be crushing while she pays little attention.
Tonks in the future...hmmmm. Well, if not Harry, perhaps one of the older Weasley boys?
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Solitaire - Apr 30, 2005 8:09 pm (#847 of 1858)
I would love to see Tonks with Bill or Charlie--although I guess some have already made Bill over to Fleur for good. The only problem with Charlie is that he is in Romania--unless he comes back to Britain for the War.
I agree, Puck, that Harry and the other kids are young enough to have more than one relationship before settling down--although if Lily and James are indicative of Wizards in general, they may marry earlier than Muggles. I think it likely that the Wizarding dating pools are smaller, so the kids have fewer possible mates from whom to choose. This could account for them settling down earlier--if, in fact, that is the rule.
As far as Harry goes, by Muggle standards, I would not classify his "crush" on Cho as an actual relationship. They basically had a few kisses, some hand-holding, and a date that ended early when Harry went to meet Hermione and Cho got mad and left. Most of their conversations ended with Cho in tears. I'm not a Harry/Luna 'shipper at all, but I think he has had more meaningful conversations and experiences with her than he ever had with Cho--even without the romance.
Ginny seems to have the most "Muggly" attitude toward dating, from what I can see. Her "serial" dating is exactly what I see among most of the young teens I teach--frequent changes of partners and nothing too serious or obsessive. I consider her dating style the healthiest, so far.
Hermione seems to maintain a friendly correspondence with Viktor, which is realistic. I'm not sure how she feels about him, although he seemed quite smitten with her. He is older, which I think could be a plus for her, and I am not counting him out just yet. I'm not sure how I feel about Hermione and Ron as a couple. I really dislike being around couples who bicker, so that aspect really taints my opinion of them as a 'ship. However, time and maturity might change their style. I also realize that some on this site like the bickery, annoying nature of their relationship and think that such behavior implies true love. Not for me, but ... to each his/her own!
As for Harry ... I don't know that he has seen his true love just yet--or maybe he has not yet discovered he loves her (whoever she may be). I guess we will have to wait!
Solitaire
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Finn BV - May 1, 2005 6:57 am (#848 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Very true, Solitaire, very true. This was basically part of the new theory forming in my head last night. Hadn't quite gotten to Tonks yet, but the rest was exactly what I was rethinking after my ideas were "shunned down" (LOL - no hard feelings everybody! :-) )
I think that Charlie just loses his part by being in Romania, and that he'll definitely have to come back here if JKR doesn't want to leave him out.
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Puck - May 1, 2005 6:45 pm (#849 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I've been thinking that if Ron and Hermione move to something more than friendship, the bickering might lessen quite a bit. Afterall, much of it seems to be due to a tension between them. If they admit their feelings and start dating, then the tension could ease. There's a line in "Oklahoma" were the lead couple are arguing and another character instructs Curly to "Grab her and kiss her...You know she's just aching for you to!" So long as it doesn't get sicky sweet, because that would be way worse.
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Muggle Doctor - May 1, 2005 7:29 pm (#850 of 1858)
I still stand by Harry/Hufflepuff for something light and fluffy in Book 6 (and book 6 only). Although I'm changing my mind about Hannah Abbott (who has probably been dating Ernie, even though we haven't been told) - the one Harry's most likely to talk to is Susan Bones, the niece of one of Harry's most powerful supporters in the Ministry, and (like Harry) the recipient of unwelcome fame on the basis of dead relatives. (I admit that the opportunity for a sympathetic bond here DID get only one throwaway line in OotP, but you never know...)
Dumbledore has been on the outer for an entire year, essentially, whilst Arthur has effectively no clout (though that may change with people like Lucius discredited) - at least Amelia Bones saw to it that he got a fair trial, and her question about the corporeal patronus and her reaction to it clearly showed on which side her loyalties lay.
Harry and Susan may end up having a lot to talk about, especially if (as is hinted) Amelia becomes the next Minister.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mommy, Queen of Everything
So, when will Ron come to this realization? Sometime before he's 50, perhaps?
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ema fewett - Mar 31, 2005 6:44 am (#802 of 1858)
I'm really excited and am waiting for HBP but I noticed that Ginny, as well as Ron and Hermione are on the countdown add campaign from Scolastic!!!! This gives me hope for a H/G ship!!!!
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scoop2172000 - Mar 31, 2005 8:45 am (#803 of 1858)
Emma, I've always held out for a Harry/Ginny relationship.
Yesterday, I was convinced the girl on the right was Ginny, an opinion I posted on the Half-Blood Prince thread. But this morning, based on some convincing posts by other members, I'm willing to concede that perhaps the redhead is a young Lily.
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Liz Mann - Mar 31, 2005 1:26 pm (#804 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I think it was Ginny. Ginny is on the coverart but not Harry's other new close friends (Neville and Luna). Hmmm... Well, I'll read it in that way, anyway. It's either Ginny or Lily.
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Puck - Mar 31, 2005 8:28 pm (#805 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Actually, I think the fact that it's difficult to figure out which one it is says alot about Harry's potential with Ginny. I think she and Lily to have way more in common than just hair color. Isn't there an old song about wanting a girl just like the one that married dear old dad? Harry needs a girl who can put in in his place. Hermione always starts with "Now, don't get mad Harry.." Too wimpy! Ginny gives it to him straight.
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coolbeans3131 - Apr 7, 2005 6:23 am (#806 of 1858)
I'm sure we've all read Jo's new entries. The thing that jumped out at me was her answer to the question about if she liked "Half-Blood Prince". Her answer included "if nobody else likes it (and some won’t)". The "some won't" got me worried. Will it be because of more deaths was my first thought. Then it stuck me that it could be about shipping. If either R/H or H/H happens in this books, there will be some ticked-off people. Did anyone else have that thought?
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Solitaire - Apr 7, 2005 7:00 am (#807 of 1858)
Edited by S.E. Jones Apr 7, 2005 8:35 am
Didn't Jo say there would be "a little romance" in the book? Well, that sounds like it will be a natural part of the story, not the focus. I can't believe she would blow a significant part of such a long-awaited book on 'shipping. And if it is not a significant part, then it probably wouldn't bother me who 'ships whom. The most important relationships in the book at the moment--for me, anyway--seem to be Harry/Voldemort and Harry/Dumbledore.
Solitaire
->Just edited for clarity.<- S.E. Jones
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Tomoé - Apr 7, 2005 9:11 am (#808 of 1858)
Back in business
Solitaire, you likely remembered this quote:
polly weasley: Will Harry fall for another girl in book six, or will he be too busy for romance?
JK Rowling replies -> He'll be busy, but what's life without a little romance? (World Book Day Chat, March 4, 2004)
I don't know, coolbeans, I won't drop Harry Potter is one of my theories turn unaccurate, and certainly not if my shipping theories are unaccurate. I predicted HRH would ultimately date outside the trio, but I found three lines in JKR's interviews that strongly point to H/R, I didn't leave the forum and turn myself in a Star Wars fan out of frustration and it won't prevent me to buy HbP or HP7. I think (a) major character(s) will die(s).
Edit: I just realise that I have yet to post the last two quotes. Here it goes:
Zsenya - Does Hermione like Ron as more than a friend?
The answer to that is in Goblet of Fire, Zsenya! (Comic relief chat)
Couric: “Any snogging with Hermione?”
Rowling: (slight frown) “Hermione and Harry! Do you think so?”
Couric: “No I’m kidding.
Rowling: “Ron and Hermione, I would say, have more potential (or did she say “tension”) there” (A/N: I know this is a crucial sentence, but I had some trouble understanding her here— she mumbles the sentence a little. This is my best interpretation! Either way, R/H shippers around the world are grinning!) (Dateline NBC, June 20th, 2003)
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coolbeans3131 - Apr 7, 2005 10:01 am (#809 of 1858)
Solitaire said- Didn't Jo say there would be "a little romance" in the book? Well, that sounds like it will be a natural part of the story, not the focus. I can't believe she would blow a significant part of such a long-awaited book on 'shipping.
I didn't mean to imply it would be the focus.
Also from Solitaire- And if it is not a significant part, then it probably wouldn't bother me who 'ships whom.
There would probably be "some" who it would bother. I was thinking that Jo was trying to get us worried about deaths, and maybe it was something less worrisome.
Tomoe, I wasn't suggesting anyone here would throw their books in the garbage and be finished with Harry if their ship didn't work out. I was just thinking that some people (emphasis some) have strong feelings, and are so sure they are right, that they might be a little peeved to find out they were wrong. I don't mean anyone on this forum.
I guess I would just prefer that to any of my favorite characters being killed off. No offense to anyone.
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KWeldon - Apr 7, 2005 10:30 am (#810 of 1858)
I agree with coolbeans' interpretation. Any ship will be a minor subplot, but even a confirmation of H/R (or not) is going to upset quite a few diehard shippers.
I also will be much more disappointed with character death than my ship not sailing.
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Tomoé - Apr 7, 2005 10:35 am (#811 of 1858)
Back in business
coolbeans -> Tomoe, I wasn't suggesting anyone here would throw their books in the garbage and be finished with Harry if their ship didn't work out. I was just thinking that some people (emphasis some) have strong feelings, and are so sure they are right, that they might be a little peeved to find out they were wrong. I don't mean anyone on this forum.
I never though you were suggesting that, I thought Jo was suggesting that, but re-reading the line, I'm not so sure anymore ... Here's the quote:
Book six does what I wanted it to do and even if nobody else likes it (and some won’t) [...]
It does sounds like HbP have a purpose in the series (obviously), the book fullfil that purpose, but some might not like the book in itself. I could have get it wrong, I did it before.
Edit: It sounds like the upsetting thing is in the very hearth of the book, a major theme, or the tone of the book (like OoP which was a succession of frustrations, injustices and mistakes).
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Muggle Doctor - Apr 17, 2005 7:33 pm (#812 of 1858)
Edited by S.E. Jones Apr 19, 2005 12:45 am
Maybe all those who are crying endless tears of blood as their 'ship is torpedoed by JKR will get a life, and realise that it is only a series of novels! I've been backing Harry-Hannah (brief fling) and Harry/Luna or Harry/Ginny (implying Ron-Hermione) for permanence, for a while, but I won't be gnashing my teeth if it turns out not to happen. Nor will I be raising my middle finger in the direction of all others if I turn out to be right.
Hey, if we all make enough predictions, chances are that one of them will be (close to) the truth! So don't just stand there; get out there and start guessing!
->Muggle Doctor, please be careful. You are bordering on offensive here. Directness is all good and fine, but there is something to be said for tact.<- S.E. Jones
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Daisy Pennifold - Apr 19, 2005 2:38 pm (#813 of 1858)
The thing that I keep reminding myself is that these are essentially high school kids. Any romance they may have does not have to be a lifetime thing - how many of you are with your teenage boy/girlfriend still? I know I'm not.
I realize that many of the kids at Hogwarts are much closer to one another than I ever was to the kids at my high school, what with what they have been through, and boarding together, etc., but they can (and most likely will) form adult relationships with people they meet post-Hogwarts. So it doesn't really matter who dates who right now. I just don't want any relationship talk getting in the way of the plot!
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MickeyCee3948 - Apr 19, 2005 2:57 pm (#814 of 1858)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Unless the ship is part of the plot!
Mikie
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Solitaire - Apr 19, 2005 4:43 pm (#815 of 1858)
Wizarding kids do seem to pair off earlier than Muggle kids--if James and Lily are any indicator--but perhaps that is because the "Wizarding dating pool" is so much smaller. Unless they have the opportunity to meet kids from schools abroad or choose to expand into Muggle dating, our Hogwarts kids may feel they have met most of the people who could become potential mates ... so why not get on with it!
I'm not saying this is so ... just that it might be how things are.
Solitaire
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haymoni - Apr 19, 2005 9:14 pm (#816 of 1858)
The war was on - don't people tend to get married younger during such stressful times?
That would go along with Solitare's comment - "why not get on with it?" If you stand a fair chance of dying, you might want to start living a bit sooner.
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Solitaire - Apr 19, 2005 11:41 pm (#817 of 1858)
Haymoni, I think that happens, too. During a war people often tend to marry on less of an acquaintance than they might if things were more settled.
Solitaire
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S.E. Jones - Apr 20, 2005 4:02 pm (#818 of 1858)
Let it snow!
Were Arthur and Molly married during wartime? What about Lucius and Narcissa? The war with Grindelwald ended in 1945. The war with Voldemort didn't start up until about 1970, when James and Lily were starting school...
Does any of that information tell us anything about early marriages?
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Ponine - Apr 20, 2005 4:33 pm (#819 of 1858)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Well, I think it is important to consider how much has happened in Muggle World as well - I know that in 1966-1970, the average age marry was 26 for men and 23 for women. As of 2003, it was 32 and 30... Things change, and I think that by looking at fine young men such as Bill, Charlie, (Percy), Fred and George may serve as indicators that they do in the wizarding world as well. Hmmm...I suppose you know more about Norwegian marriages than you'd ever thought you would...
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I Am Used Vlad - Apr 20, 2005 6:50 pm (#820 of 1858)
I Am Almighty!
I would not be at all surprised if the Potters' early marriage is related to the first Voldemort war. Something had to have happened in a short period of time to change James' behavior and Lily's attitude towards him. The Malfoys' marriage, which must have been at least relatively early, could have been influenced by the war as well. Pure-bloods who supported Voldemort may have paired up to show that they were truly behind the cause. Based on the age of their children, the fact that they were boarding school sweethearts, and our total lack of knowledge about their age when married or how long it was before they started having kids, I assume the Weasley's marriage was not influenced by a war.
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Solitaire - Apr 23, 2005 11:04 pm (#821 of 1858)
If Bill is about ten years older than Harry, then Arthur and Molly would probably be at least eight years older than James and Lily, assuming they married right out of Hogwarts and had Bill within a year of marrying ... right? I don't think we know their exact ages, but I suppose Molly and Arthur could have married even earlier--before Voldemort had really begun his Reign of Terror in the WW.
Solitaire
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Tomoé - Apr 25, 2005 7:46 am (#822 of 1858)
Back in business
You right Solitaire, Bill should be born on November 28th in 1970
(1980/81=Ron; -2 years -> 1977/78=F&G; -2 years -> 1975-76=Percy; -3 years -> 1972/73=Charlie; -2 years -> 1970/71=Bill),
so Molly and Arthur should have been in Hogwarts in the sixties. If I remember well, 1970 is the year we estimated Voldemort came back (thought, I don't remember excatly why), so married or not, Molly was likely pregnant or mother when they first earn of Lord Voldemort.
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mike miller - Apr 25, 2005 9:02 am (#823 of 1858)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
There does not seem to a Wizarding World equivalent to college, so it would make sense that more long-term relationships begin at Hogwarts. There may be more "on the job" training; i.e. Charlie and Bill Weasley, and a few select programs like Auror training. If the Mininstry of Magic does not have any regulations against dating in the workplace it is most likely the next place where people meet their partners.
Arthur and Molly were definately seeing each other while at Hogwarts; and, I suspect James and Lily's relationship had changed by the time they left.
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Muggle Doctor - Apr 25, 2005 7:40 pm (#824 of 1858)
Remember that the wizarding world seems to be socially "behind" the Muggle world in many ways, or at least very naive to it; workplace dating regulations for the wizarding world are IMO a long way off. Harry, Hermione & Ron's KIDS (however the pairings work out) might have to worry about it, but Our Heroes (and Heroines) themselves will not.
I suppose that the average witch or wizard will probably try to marry into the magical world first if they can, because it's what they know, it's who they see every day, and there are no messy explanations to be given or secrets to be kept. \ If one is a pureblood racist jerk, one finds others like oneself who will only marry pureblood racist jerks: on this score, it's a surprise that the whole school is not crawling with the offspring of the Malfoys, Crabbes and Goyles, because I'd have thought they'd want to do everything in their power to increase the number of pureblood wizards (and racist jerks, of course). Instead, the Malfoys, Crabbes, Goyles, Notts and such (all the Voldemort-allied Dark Wizards) all seem to be having only one child each (and all boys for some convenient reason). At this rate, it doesn't even matter if Voldemort wins: with large families like the Weasleys gone, with other pureblood muggle-lovers dead, and with no new magical talent permitted in from the Muggle world, the Voldemort/Malfoy vision of the wizarding world will be terminally sterile. They'll un-breed themselves out of existence.
The Dark Side will destroy itself, and all because its disciples are unreasonable about who they choose (or choose not) to 'ship with.
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Daisy Pennifold - Apr 26, 2005 10:40 am (#825 of 1858)
Muggle Doctor, in reply to part of your post:
I assume that the reason the pure-blood families prefer only one male heir is so that they won't have to divide their estate/money, thus weakening the power of their name.
If Lucius had seven kids, like the Weasleys, he would almost have to leave each of them something, even if the oldest male ("Bill Malfoy") received the bulk of the estate. This would leave Bill with less. When Bill dies, he has to divide his estate among his offspring - the more kids he has, the less money/property/stock dividends each one gets, see?
It is hard to remain a powerful wealthy family with inherited money when you have to divvy it up with each generation. With only one heir, such as Draco, there is no division. The Malfoy name stays powerful.
However, with fewer heirs, there is more risk of the estate leaving the family. In the Black Plague in Europe of the 1300's, so many people died in a short period of time that lines of succession went all awry, bourgeois merchant citizens became wealthy, powerful families died out completely, and the serfs were, for the first time, able to demand fair wages for their work, creating the "Middle Class."
I agree with you that the age of the pure-blood wizard is at an end, and with a win from Voldemort, wizards will once again reside only in fairy tales. ; )
Of course, the pure-blood girls are going to be able to make some (financially) great matches, as the boys do seem to outnumber them! Can't you imagine Draco and Theodore Nott fighting for Ginny's hand in a few years? Poor girl!
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Muggle Doctor - Apr 28, 2005 7:21 am (#826 of 1858)
If Lucius had seven kids, like the Weasleys, he would almost have to leave each of them something, even if the oldest male ("Bill Malfoy") received the bulk of the estate.
True, but regardless of the number of children each has, Lucius is still fantastically wealthy compared to Arthur. Sure, if Arthur & Molly had only ever had (say) Ron and Ginny, they'd have new uniforms, new books and shiny new accessories to go to school with each year (and probably Nimbus 2000s to ride), but remember that Lucius bought the ENTIRE Slytherin quidditch team a Nimbus 2001 EACH, and it probably didn't even touch the sides of his small-change jar.
Besides, Lucius - being Lucius - is not about to do ANYTHING that would dilute his power, even if he did have seven children. "Draco," he would say, "is flesh of my flesh, blood of my blood and heir to my power - anyone who wants more than lip service from either of us will have to show that they are worthy of it." Which would make Draco a harder and more capable young man; simply to keep his life, let alone his status as his father's favoured son.
And as for
I assume that the reason the pure-blood families prefer only one male heir is so that they won't have to divide their estate/money, thus weakening the power of their name.
remember that none of the Death Eater families (the racist purebloods, as opposed to the accepting ones like the Weasleys, who hardly stopped after the first son, did they?) are nice people. So they're going to embrace things like sexism, male primogeniture and rubbish like that. In fact, they are very much Rowling's metaphor for the nastiest traits of humankind.
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Steve Newton - Apr 28, 2005 7:28 am (#827 of 1858)
Librarian
I thought that in the UK they had the practice of primogeniture. That is, the oldest son gets everything. Large families do not dilute the wealth particularly.
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Muggle Doctor - Apr 28, 2005 3:24 pm (#828 of 1858)
Yes, but not all (at least in the Wizarding World) are going to be absolutely rigid about it. Certainly royal succession is by primogeniture, but inheritance does not HAVE to be.
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S.E. Jones - Apr 29, 2005 9:25 am (#829 of 1858)
Let it snow!
There is also the practice of giving land to the oldest son, along with the largest percentage of the money, then giving each subsequent son an increasingly smaller percent.
I'd say that the family money could be split up, but it would take several generations. It does seem that older families have fewer children, but if you look at the Weasleys, not only does Arthur have seven children, but he, himself, was one of three sons.
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Betelgeuse Black - Apr 29, 2005 10:00 am (#830 of 1858)
OK, I'm coming out and declaring my 'ship support. I tend to take the obvious clues so please forgive me if I dismiss something I consider to be unimportant.
I think the Harry-Ginny ship will occur at some point. We know that Ginny still likes Harry but she gave up on him since he wouldn't pay attention. I think that now Ginny is being herself, Harry will see what an interesting girl she is. Harry likes the Weasley's in general and Ginny seems to be a lot like a mellow Fred or George.
I noticed in OotP something that I think forshadows this. On the Hogwarts Express the group was discussing Ginny and Michael Corner's breakup. Ron said that hopefully she would chose someone better next time and glanced up at Harry.
I have more reasons but I'll save them as a "protego" when the bat-bogey hexes start raining down on me. :-) Also, I have to go anyway.
Betelgeuse Edit: I posted this twice by accident so I deleted one of them.
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MickeyCee3948 - Apr 29, 2005 1:24 pm (#831 of 1858)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Betelgeuse Black I won't sent any hexes your way and I will try to stand by and deflect any that are sent after you. I agree with you.
Mikie
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Puck - Apr 29, 2005 7:45 pm (#832 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I totally support the Harry-Ginny 'ship. It makes the most sense. The Weasley's have been like a family for Harry, his first real family. Nice if he could become an official part of it. Funny, Ron like a brother to him, but Ginny not like a sister. Hermione acts as a sister to Harry, but not to Ron. Sorry to all the H/H shippers, but I just don't see the spark there.
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Sticky Glue - Apr 30, 2005 12:50 am (#833 of 1858)
Yep, I agree with you Puck.
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frogface - Apr 30, 2005 2:49 am (#834 of 1858)
Me too, but I'm often too imtimdated to share my opinion's on this thread! I'm deffinatly for H/G and Hr/R and have been since my first read of the series.
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mike miller - Apr 30, 2005 8:31 am (#835 of 1858)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Frogface - There's no reason to be intimated to share your thoughts and opinions on any of the threads here. We're generally pretty nice and willing to give anyone room to voice their opinon.
Look at me for example, I'm the lone sailor on the Harry/Tonks ship! For clarities sake, Harry and Tonks won't really get together during the heart of the story, just after they have worked together as Aurors for several years.
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Denise P. - Apr 30, 2005 8:34 am (#836 of 1858)
Ravenclaw Pony
Nope, I have stepped on the Harry/Tonks 'ship briefly I agree, if it were to happen, it would still be many years in the future but I can see it happening. Of course, I also think a Harry/Luna 'ship has a good chance to sail off in the future too.
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Weeny Owl - Apr 30, 2005 8:45 am (#837 of 1858)
Do you really, Denise? If it isn't Ron and Hermione, I can see Ron with Luna. Granted, she freaks him out right now, but she seems a bit captivated by him.
Although I suppose if it is Ron and Hermione, Harry could end up with Luna. I don't see that one quite as much because I see Luna as more of a kindred spirit who has the experience of losing a parent, but it still being just that one thing they really have in common.
Then again, with Luna, anything is possible.
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Denise P. - Apr 30, 2005 8:57 am (#838 of 1858)
Ravenclaw Pony
Yep, I think Tonks would balance Harry out nicely. She doesn't seem overly impressed with the fact he is The Boy Who Lived and he appreciates that. Right now, a 'ship between them would never work. I agree with Mike, if it were to happen, it would be at least 7-10 years down the road.
I also can see Luna and Harry developing a 'ship. Again, she balances him out and doesn't treat him as anything out of the ordinary other than a boy. She is not in awe of him and doesn't put him up on any kind of a shrine.
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mike miller - Apr 30, 2005 10:27 am (#839 of 1858)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Denise - You're welcome aboard any time, and for as long as you'd to sail (on again, off again is O.K. too). I'll admit it's a "long shot" ship, but JKR seems fond of "long shots".
I agree that Luna does not treat Harry in any special way, but she just seems too "out there" for Harry. Luna could come more down to earth as we move through HBP and book 7. There's always the Pansy options, but we'd need to see a change of heart very early in HBP to make it plausible to say nothing of overcoming Hermione's influence.
It's very hard to identify any of the female characters that we know anything about that would fit well with Harry (sorry to all those 'shipping the many other possible partners). I just don't see Harry's 'ship playing an important role in the story. Other 'ships, however, (Ron and Hermione) could play out in many diferent ways in the story.
I will say this, I think Ron and Hermione have more of a 'ship together than they themselves even realize; and, I don't think it would bother Harry in the least!
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Finn BV - Apr 30, 2005 2:22 pm (#840 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
I'm not overly offended by Hr/R 'shippers (Ron will just never get anybody), but Harry-Ginny is WAY too overrated AND it already happened, in some people's minds (in CoS). *ducks the dungbombs*
I am, personally, still for Harry/CHO, I think when Cho said "That was really brave of you, Harry" re the interview with Rita, she wants to get him back in away.
You can say that she lost him and she doesn't deserve him back, but Harry, in a sense, still wants her.
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Eponine - Apr 30, 2005 2:58 pm (#841 of 1858)
From the World Book Day Chat March 2004
eastbrook4: why did Harry have to split up with Cho Chang?
JK Rowling replies -> That's life, I'm afraid. They were never going to be happy, it was better that it ended early!
I believe that the Harry/Cho relationship has run its course.
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Finn BV - Apr 30, 2005 3:13 pm (#842 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Ah, I see.
*rethinks 'ship plan*
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Solitaire - Apr 30, 2005 3:29 pm (#843 of 1858)
Harry and Ginny has already happened? Hm ... I guess I was sleeping, because I missed it. Ginny certainly had a crush on Harry, but he never noticed her as more than Ron's little sister. I don't really think of that as a 'ship.
Harry is a bit more aware of Ginny as an individual in her own right in OotP; however, I still do not see anything of a 'ship as having occurred yet. I certainly do see potential for a 'ship between these two, however. Ginny has spirit and fire, much as Harry does. I like her in a 'ship with him better than Luna.
I like Luna and believe that temperaments like hers can occasionally be soothing; but her unending calmness would get on my nerves. I'm a relatively quiet person, but I am also very emotional. When I'm wound up about something, I get very annoyed when the people to whom I look for support and encouragement stay calm, passive, and rational. Remember how angry Harry became in OotP when Dumbledore stayed calm?
We do need those rational voices in our lives; however, having one's partner of choice ALWAYS the calm voice of reason can be incredibly annoying to someone whose makeup is emotional, even volatile. I see this as a big obstacle to a Harry/Luna 'ship. Conversely, I see Ginny's temperament as a plus in her column. I am not really a H/G 'shipper, but I certainly do see its potential.
I realize others will see what I perceive as Harry/Luna obstacles as pluses to that 'ship--which just goes to show that it's "different strokes for different folks."
Solitaire
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Weeny Owl - Apr 30, 2005 3:41 pm (#844 of 1858)
I agree with you in a lot of ways, Solitaire.
I see Harry and Ginny as much more probable than Harry and Luna, but I do see a possibility of him with Luna.
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Choices - Apr 30, 2005 5:52 pm (#845 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I could live with Harry and Ginny because I really want to see Harry as a part of that family. He would fit right in and both Mrs. Weasley and Ginny would love and adore him. He so deserves that!!
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Puck - Apr 30, 2005 7:31 pm (#846 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Hey, my brother married one of my old school mates, so it does happen! I can see him having another relationship for a bit before evetnually going with Ginny. Afterall, Ginny already has another boyfriend. Maybe it's his turn to be crushing while she pays little attention.
Tonks in the future...hmmmm. Well, if not Harry, perhaps one of the older Weasley boys?
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Solitaire - Apr 30, 2005 8:09 pm (#847 of 1858)
I would love to see Tonks with Bill or Charlie--although I guess some have already made Bill over to Fleur for good. The only problem with Charlie is that he is in Romania--unless he comes back to Britain for the War.
I agree, Puck, that Harry and the other kids are young enough to have more than one relationship before settling down--although if Lily and James are indicative of Wizards in general, they may marry earlier than Muggles. I think it likely that the Wizarding dating pools are smaller, so the kids have fewer possible mates from whom to choose. This could account for them settling down earlier--if, in fact, that is the rule.
As far as Harry goes, by Muggle standards, I would not classify his "crush" on Cho as an actual relationship. They basically had a few kisses, some hand-holding, and a date that ended early when Harry went to meet Hermione and Cho got mad and left. Most of their conversations ended with Cho in tears. I'm not a Harry/Luna 'shipper at all, but I think he has had more meaningful conversations and experiences with her than he ever had with Cho--even without the romance.
Ginny seems to have the most "Muggly" attitude toward dating, from what I can see. Her "serial" dating is exactly what I see among most of the young teens I teach--frequent changes of partners and nothing too serious or obsessive. I consider her dating style the healthiest, so far.
Hermione seems to maintain a friendly correspondence with Viktor, which is realistic. I'm not sure how she feels about him, although he seemed quite smitten with her. He is older, which I think could be a plus for her, and I am not counting him out just yet. I'm not sure how I feel about Hermione and Ron as a couple. I really dislike being around couples who bicker, so that aspect really taints my opinion of them as a 'ship. However, time and maturity might change their style. I also realize that some on this site like the bickery, annoying nature of their relationship and think that such behavior implies true love. Not for me, but ... to each his/her own!
As for Harry ... I don't know that he has seen his true love just yet--or maybe he has not yet discovered he loves her (whoever she may be). I guess we will have to wait!
Solitaire
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Finn BV - May 1, 2005 6:57 am (#848 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Very true, Solitaire, very true. This was basically part of the new theory forming in my head last night. Hadn't quite gotten to Tonks yet, but the rest was exactly what I was rethinking after my ideas were "shunned down" (LOL - no hard feelings everybody! :-) )
I think that Charlie just loses his part by being in Romania, and that he'll definitely have to come back here if JKR doesn't want to leave him out.
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Puck - May 1, 2005 6:45 pm (#849 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I've been thinking that if Ron and Hermione move to something more than friendship, the bickering might lessen quite a bit. Afterall, much of it seems to be due to a tension between them. If they admit their feelings and start dating, then the tension could ease. There's a line in "Oklahoma" were the lead couple are arguing and another character instructs Curly to "Grab her and kiss her...You know she's just aching for you to!" So long as it doesn't get sicky sweet, because that would be way worse.
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Muggle Doctor - May 1, 2005 7:29 pm (#850 of 1858)
I still stand by Harry/Hufflepuff for something light and fluffy in Book 6 (and book 6 only). Although I'm changing my mind about Hannah Abbott (who has probably been dating Ernie, even though we haven't been told) - the one Harry's most likely to talk to is Susan Bones, the niece of one of Harry's most powerful supporters in the Ministry, and (like Harry) the recipient of unwelcome fame on the basis of dead relatives. (I admit that the opportunity for a sympathetic bond here DID get only one throwaway line in OotP, but you never know...)
Dumbledore has been on the outer for an entire year, essentially, whilst Arthur has effectively no clout (though that may change with people like Lucius discredited) - at least Amelia Bones saw to it that he got a fair trial, and her question about the corporeal patronus and her reaction to it clearly showed on which side her loyalties lay.
Harry and Susan may end up having a lot to talk about, especially if (as is hinted) Amelia becomes the next Minister.
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KWeldon - May 1, 2005 7:52 pm (#851 of 1858)
Muggle Doctor,
I'm pretty sure JKR stated that Amelia will not become Minister, because I remember being disappointed. Sorry, but I don't have time to look it up now. Gotta run...
KWeldon
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kabloink! - May 3, 2005 1:16 am (#852 of 1858)
Optician's Assistant
Puck, I agree with you about the bickering. I think it does have a lot to do with the tension currently between them. I doubt it will disappear completely, but it will probably be minimalized. I think Hermione's relationship with Viktor will eventually help to push along the 'ship between her and ROn. Jealousy and whatnot, not that Hermione would do it on purpose, but if Viktor were to surface in Britain, Ron might come to his senses more quickly than he would have otherwise.
I am also a big fan of the Harry / Ginny 'ship. I have my doubts as to whether or not it will happen, but I like the idea that someone mentioned of Ginny being in a relationship and Harry crushing for a bit. Isn't that the way it always works out? And she's been around him for so long now that the 'boy who lived' thing doesn't seem to even cross her mind anymore-He's just Harry.
THe Harry/Luna 'ship I have nothing against, just a gut feeling that tells me I would be disappointed if that was what happened. I can see it as a possibility, though, especially after the end of OoP.
Now Charlie and TOnks...that I'll have to think about. What about the twins? Does anyone think they'll find love? Okay, rambling now. I'm going to try to write my final paper now.
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Morgan Champion - May 3, 2005 2:51 am (#853 of 1858)
I also tend to favour the Harry/Ginny & Ron/Hermione 'ships.
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Tomoé - May 3, 2005 11:50 am (#854 of 1858)
Back in business
Muggle Doctor -> Susan Bones, the niece of one of Harry's most powerful supporters in the Ministry [...] Amelia Bones saw to it that he got a fair trial, and her question about the corporeal patronus and her reaction to it clearly showed on which side her loyalties lay.
Did you forget her questionning about Mrs Figgs testimony? Mme Bones is not anyone's supporter, she support the truth and was neutral in Harry's trial. That doesn't mean Susan chances are ruined, though, but I do believe the "she now had a good idea what it felt like to be Harry" line is overrated.
fbv807 -> Ron will just never get anybody
Yahooligan_Brian asks: Will Ron ever get a girlfriend?
jkrowling_bn: I'm laughing again... why wouldn't he?!
though he's not doing too well at the moment, is he?
but then, Fleur Delacour was really aiming a bit high
I believe Ron and Hermione will end up together (it's more because of the interview than the books, Hermione doesn't seem to be very interested by book 5), but I have really no idea for Harry, it could be just anyone.
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Solitaire - May 3, 2005 12:01 pm (#855 of 1858)
While I think the twins are a hoot, I think it would take an extremely patient woman to be willing to marry either of them--although George may have a slight edge, since Fred seems to be the instigator of most of their shenanigans. I think they are probably brilliant and talented wizards, but unless they begin to show a slightly more serious side, it could be a while for them. Then again, if they survive the war, maybe all of the women will be after them, since everyone will need a bit of levity in their lives. It's hard to say ... Tonks might like one of them!
Solitaire
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Finn BV - May 3, 2005 1:31 pm (#856 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Interesting, Solitaire… hadn't ever thought of a 'ship for the twins.
You mention that "if they survive the war": I don't know where I heard it, but somewhere JKR said that she like writing the twins too much, or something. Even if she didn't say it, I can imagine that writing their parts would be extremely fun. So, I think they will stay around through the saga.
However, I can see many women going after the twins - they're a very likeable type - the thing is, will the twins really want to even have a 'ship?
-fbv-
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Tomoé - May 3, 2005 1:46 pm (#857 of 1858)
Back in business
Angelina was willing to go to the Ball with Fred, so their case shouldn't be totally hopeless. ^_~
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Finn BV - May 3, 2005 2:08 pm (#858 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Yeah, but she didn't seem completely overjoyed to go.
And then what about George?
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Snuffles - May 3, 2005 2:17 pm (#859 of 1858)
Olivia
It wouldn't suprise me if both the twins went with Angelina to the ball, only she wasn't aware of it! I can just see one of them disappearing to the toilet and the other appearing a minute later.
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Puck - May 3, 2005 8:27 pm (#860 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Oh, i think the twins would be wonderful to date. I bet if you managed to get them one one one they could show a serious side. Angelina played it cool, but she was quite pleased to be asked by Fred. (Love the switching off idea.)
I think Hermione does have an interest in Ron, but like Ginny has thought the situation hopeless, and best to move on. Or at least let Ron think she has.
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Muggle Doctor - May 4, 2005 3:22 pm (#861 of 1858)
Tomoe said
Did you forget her questionning about Mrs Figgs testimony? Mme Bones is not anyone's supporter, she support the truth and was neutral in Harry's trial.
In the literal sense you are right; however, with the prosecution case driven by Fudge and Umbridge, I felt that standing up for truth and impartiality was equivalent to favouring Harry. It would have been so, so easy just to go with the flow and agree with the Minister and his Toady-girl, but Amelia Bones bucked the trend and did the right thing. Given the political climate in the WW at the time of Harry's trial, that's equivalent to taking sides.
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Tomoé - May 5, 2005 7:54 am (#862 of 1858)
Back in business
Given the political climate in the WW at the time of Harry's trial, that's equivalent to taking sides.
That may be true in Fudge's mind, but I don't think Amelia was siding with Harry and Dumbledore in her mind. Tonks said she's fair and I believe it's just the way she is, she couldn't have looked herself in a mirror again have she follow Fudge's lead.
Errr .... we are in the 'ship-'ship thread ...
Let's talk about Neville. Jo said he won't end up with Luna. We also know his date with Ginny ended up poorly as she went with Michael Corner by the end of the night, so Ginny likely won't be his partner before some major event (could the DoM battle be just this?). We also Hermione was his first choice for the Yule Ball. So, will he end up Bachelor? Will he get more credits since he fought the DoM battle?
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Catherine - May 5, 2005 9:59 am (#863 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
I could see Neville and Susan Bones as a pair.
Susan's family has been affected by the Death Eaters, too. Also, it's possible that in her involvement in Law Enforcement, Susan's aunt, Madame Bones, would have known Frank and Alice Longbottom, as they were Aurors for the Ministry. That would be another connection.
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Solitaire - May 5, 2005 10:07 am (#864 of 1858)
Gee, I hope we don't cross off Neville based on what happened when he was 14. People change a lot, and Neville has had to overcome a lot of insecurities.
It is possible that Neville invited Hermione to the ball because she was the only girl of his year with whom he felt comfortable. After all, we don't see him talking much to Parvati or Lavender in any of their "shared scenes." We do know that Hermione has helped him in his classes. If she hadn't been going with Krum, I bet she'd have accepted Neville's invitation. I don't think Hermione is a snob.
Solitaire
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Muggle Doctor - May 5, 2005 7:44 pm (#865 of 1858)
We do know that Amelia found Harry's ability to produce a corporeal patronus impressive, and the fact that Susan mentioned it in this way (using "corporeal" as her aunt had) means that Amelia was impressed enough to mention it to Susan.
No doubt the fact of Harry's trial would have been reported in the Daily Prophet, as would the presiding witch, and Susan almost certainly would have asked her aunt questions.
Even though I can imagine Amelia Bones saying "Susan, did you know that the Potter boy can produce a corporeal patronus?", I have to admit, even I don't think she said it to get Susan interested in Harry. She MIGHT have suggested to Susan that it was about time a few Hufflepuffs stood shoulder-to-shoulder with him, though: "He's under a lot of pressure from the Ministry, Susan, and he has enemies at the school as you well know. It might be an idea for you to encourage a few of your House-mates to support him a little."
This may account for Ernie and Hannah (among others) being so willing to come to the DA lessons (and to support him - remember Ernie's speech) when, just last year, they'd been antagonistic to him over the "Support Cedric Diggory" business, and Ernie had all but accused Harry of attempted murder in Year 2.
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Choices - May 6, 2005 6:57 pm (#866 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I'm not really into the "ship" thing, but I was sort of thinking that Neville with Luna might work. Neville is so shy and Luna is sort of "non-threatening" and soft spoken and "dreamy" and I could see her and Neville together. I'm sure this must have been brought up before though.
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Solitaire - May 7, 2005 4:42 am (#867 of 1858)
Here is Jo's response to Neville and Luna as a 'ship.
Solitaire
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Choices - May 7, 2005 9:37 am (#868 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Now I know why I don't get into "shipping" - I'm definitely not good at it. Guess that means I shouldn't open that Match Making Service, huh? LOL
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Solitaire - May 7, 2005 10:31 am (#869 of 1858)
Could be you are like me ... more interested in other aspects of the stories? I've been teaching kids from ages 10 through 17 for over twenty years. I've seen how individuals' romantic likes and dislikes change over the course of several years ... so I don't put a whole lot of credence in the romantic choices one makes at the age of 15.
I realize some people do see their future mates at that age. I also admit that this is far more likely in the Wizarding World--where the dating pool is considerably smaller--than it is in the Muggle World.
Interestingly, while I believe the Wizarding World is slightly behind the modern Muggle World in some ways, the kids seem to have far more pressing concerns (life, death, wars) than Muggle kids at a a much earlier age. Who is dating whom seems kind of trivial right now in comparison to what our Trio knows is coming. These three--especially the boys--may be immature socially; however, they are far beyond many adults in their grasp of the problems facing their own society.
Solitaire
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KWeldon - May 8, 2005 1:12 pm (#870 of 1858)
Very well put, Solitaire, as usual.
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Betelgeuse Black - May 10, 2005 6:42 am (#871 of 1858)
I'm sure this has been discussed before but I thought I'd bring it up while we wait for the HBP.
I was re-reading GoF for the umpteenth time and I was struck by several things. We all remember the Yule ball and Ron's jealousy leading to a row afterwards. I have not seen it discussed where Hermione gets jealous of Fleur paying attention to Ron after the second task. Fleur was very glad that Harry (and Ron) helped Gabrielle back from the bottom of the lake. She kissed Harry, and then told Ron thanks for helping and kissed him. Hermione was not very pleased and kept ignoring Krum.
This just led me to stir the pot again and say that I support the obvious 'ship of Ron/Hermione. They have shown obvious signs that they are jealous when others get too close. I think it's a matter of maturity. (mainly for Ron.... well, maybe it won't happen :-) )
OK, imperturbable charm on the post.... Betelgeuse
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wwtMask - May 10, 2005 12:36 pm (#872 of 1858)
It might be worth mentioning that Hermione may be slightly jealous of Luna, if nothing else because Luna seems to be interested in Ron (of course, Luna's...unique outlook on life probably doesn't help).
I think Neville is ready to come into his own in this book. What that means for his social life is beyond me, but surely a few girls might be impressed by his performance in the MoM. He's a nice kid overall, no kind of ego problem and, with the boosts to his confidence he's had the last year, I'm sure that'll make him more attractive. Longshot 'ship: Parvati and Neville?
I don't think Madam Bones was trying to nudge her niece into a relationship with Harry. A corporeal patronus is apparently very impressive for a young person to perform and I can understand if she mentioned it when talking to Susan. Seriously, in the course of talking to a young person, most adults ask about school and Harry was probably an easy topic to bring up.
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Star Crossed - May 17, 2005 5:48 pm (#873 of 1858)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
For some reason, I've always been into Parvati and Dean, as well as Seamus and Lavender. They just seem the type to have a joint wedding, best friends all together and one of those happy-go-lucky things. Sort of like the Brady Bunch girls getting married.
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Muggle Doctor - May 18, 2005 6:48 am (#874 of 1858)
wwtMask, you've just given me the idea for a fanfic.
I will acknowledge your nickname when I finish writing it. You don't belong to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] do you? This may make it easier to credit you if you are, but nobody will have to join to read it when it's done.
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Not So Headless Nikki - May 25, 2005 1:09 pm (#875 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
This is my first post, and I specifically joined the forum so that I could post on this topic. I am definitely a H/H shipper, and even the first time that I read the books I thought that it seemed evident that Harry and Hermoine were forming a relationship that would eventually lead into romance. I especially noticed the physcial contact between them.
As things stand currently, it would seem to me that Harry has feelings for Hermoine subconsciously (as revealed in his dreams). But I think it will take a big event to happen that will cause him to realise how he feels about her on a conscious; i.e. if Ron and Hermoine were to start dating. I feel that their dating would certainly cause Harry anger at them, although at first I don't know if he'll really understand why he is so mad at them. After awhile I think he'll come to the realisation that he isn't mad at them for spending time without him so much as he's upset that he isn't the one spending time with Hermoine in a "special way".
Given that JKR likes Jane Austen and I have seen Hermoine and Ron's relationship compared to the banter between Mr. Darcy and Elizabeth (from Pride and Prejudice), I would like to compare Hermoine and HARRY'S relationship to that of Emma and Mr. Knightley (in Emma). Emma and Mr. Knightley were platonic best friends, with Mr. Knightley often being Emma's voice of reason. He rebukes her on several occaions (as Hermoine does to Harry). All along though Mr. Knightley is in love with Emma. Emma doesn't realise this until HER BEST FRIEND confides that she loves Mr. Knightley.
Hmm...seems like a very familiar situation to Harry and Hermoine. Hermoine is often the voice of Harry's conscience, and let's not forget that Cho did turn into Hermoine in Harry's dream--a dream loaded with symbolism.
Okay so those are just my 2 knuts.
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coolbeans3131 - May 25, 2005 2:14 pm (#876 of 1858)
Welcome Not So Headless Nikki! I am also a H/H shipper. I'm wondering how you see it all turning out? If R/H date and then Harry realizes his feelings, then what happens?
I see it somewhat similar to you only I think Hemione likes Harry, and wouldn't date Ron. Harry could see a close moment between R/H and it could awaken his feelings. That's what I imagine anyways.
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Ms Amanda - May 25, 2005 2:50 pm (#877 of 1858)
coolbeans3131 - "If R/H date and then Harry realizes his feelings, then what happens?"
Then, yippee! Ron and Luna get to be together!
Actually, I'm more of a Ron/ Hermione shipper. But, if Harry actually gets to be with Hermione, then I hope Luna catches Ron.
Not So Headless Nikki, thanks for the Jane Austen references. They're the reason I ventured onto this hot headed thread.
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Ruthie - May 25, 2005 4:35 pm (#878 of 1858)
I was sure that JKR said somewhere in some interview (lol) that Harry was not going to end up with anyone we have already guessed. She said (this is not a quote) it would be someone relatively low profile or at least someone we never would have thought of....to me this rules out Hermione. Sorry I don't know exactly what JKR said or where I even read this....
Perhaps it was just my imagination lol.
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applepie - May 25, 2005 4:38 pm (#879 of 1858)
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." -- Oscar Wilde
Maybe it's Susan Bones....she did like his patronus... Just kidding!
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Ruthie - May 25, 2005 4:47 pm (#880 of 1858)
Hehe applepie Although it would put him in the good books with her mum, just in case.
Also I think she said something about the relationship simbolising the main theme of the books...I really should find out where I read this or it could be a complete lie although now I think about it I may have seen it on another thread here....
Just found it lol. It's in the "Harry's ship uniting the houses" thread.
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applepie - May 25, 2005 5:05 pm (#881 of 1858)
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." -- Oscar Wilde
Sounds to me like the person would have to be in Slytherin to truly unite the houses, since Gryffindor and Slytherin seem to be worst enemies.
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Not So Headless Nikki - May 25, 2005 8:08 pm (#882 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
coolbeans-- That's pretty much what I meant about some "big event". Either it would take Ron and Hermoine actually dating to cause Harry to realise his feelings, or he would have to see an intimate moment between R/H, OR he would have to go through a near-death-experience with Hermoine where he would be forced to think of life without her--thus bringing his true feelings up front.
Right now, since it hasn't been specifically stated who Hermoine likes, I think that she might have feelings for both Ron and Harry, with Hermoine really wanting to be with Harry. I believe that she knows how Ron feels, and might use him to get Harry to show how he feels towards her. Does that make sense?
If my personal ship with H/H doesn't pan out than it seems most likely that Harry will end up Ginny. But I really REALLY don't want that to happen.
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frogface - May 26, 2005 1:50 am (#883 of 1858)
But Harry has witnessed situations between Ron and Hermione that suggest they like each other, many of them in GoF, and he didn't show any signs of jealously then. Also I don't think Hermoine would use Ron that way, thats a very cruel thing to do in my opinion. Hermoine has her faults but shes not a cruel person, and she is someone who appears to be very aware of people's feelngs. I don't see her behaving in a way like that.
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Not So Headless Nikki - May 26, 2005 7:05 am (#884 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
I guess what I meant about Hermoine was that if she thought that things are more or less hopeless with Harry, then she would date Ron simply because she knew how he felt about her already. Whereas with Harry, it hasn't been made clear yet. Think of the way that she reacted when she questioned him about his kiss with Cho.
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applepie - May 26, 2005 7:07 am (#885 of 1858)
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." -- Oscar Wilde
Hermione just seems to be so sincere in her efforts to help Harry understand Cho, that it doesn't seem that she is interested in him. She seems like a sister to Harry and more awkward around Ron.
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Ponine - May 26, 2005 4:37 pm (#886 of 1858)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
I completely agree, applepie
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Eponine - May 26, 2005 4:59 pm (#887 of 1858)
As do I.
I'm really hoping that HBP is going to put an end to the shipping speculation. It's not bad on this board because we have such great mods and shipping is contained to very few threads, but on other places on the web people can get pretty defensive about their ships.
It's my opinion that HBP, while not necessarily containing the ships actually happening, will be clear as to which way they are headed. Harry might not be dating anyone by the end of the book, but we'll see that he has definite feelings for someone.
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KWeldon - May 26, 2005 5:26 pm (#888 of 1858)
Unfortunately, if a ship for Harry begins and ends in HBP, then the speculation won't end. My money is on this scenario.
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Amilia Smith - May 26, 2005 6:10 pm (#889 of 1858)
Even if it doesn't end . . . Harry/Cho lasted for 3 books.
Mills.
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frogface - May 27, 2005 4:19 am (#890 of 1858)
We may get an answer to whether or not Ron and Hermione are destined to be or not though. I was certain we would get that answer in OotP and was really annoyed when we didn't! Several weeks alone together without Harry and they STILL didn't get it on! Come on guys!!!
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Muggle Doctor - May 27, 2005 4:55 am (#891 of 1858)
Several weeks alone together without Harry and they STILL didn't get it on! Come on guys!!!
Not that we've seen, anyway. It could be the last big secret they're keeping from him. Remember that almost everything we see is from Harry's perspective. If they've been snogging while he's at Privet Drive, he (and we along with him) will be the last to know.
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Not So Headless Nikki - May 27, 2005 6:31 am (#892 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
frogface - Several weeks alone together without Harry and they STILL didn't get it on! Come on guys!!!
LOL! I too was disappointed that the ships weren't made concrete in OoTP (even if that had been R/H).
It is true that even though these books are about Harry and his basically his fight against LV, people are more focused on what is going to happen with the personal relationships between the characters. I know that for myself, I am 50% interested in the series because I want to see who wins the war and 50% interested to see who Harry ends up with!!
I hope that JKR at least lets us know who likes whom FOR SURE by the end of HBP.
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S.E. Jones - May 27, 2005 11:30 am (#893 of 1858)
Let it snow!
The relationship between Ron and Hermione has been compared to Darcy and Elizabeth (Darcy being Ron and Elizabeth being Hermione), but it could also be compared to Emma and Knightly (Emma being Ron, in this case, and Knightly being Hermione). As most of Austin's romances spring up between two friends, one of which acts as the conscience for the other, I think people are more referring to the type of relationship than to specific parallels. The bantering, tension filled couple who seem, at first glance to be complete opposites, is a common literary device. You less often see the 'the person of my dreams was right in front of me all the time' sort of romance (although this could also be compared to Ron and Hermione) and the 'soul mate' immediate attraction (which, just after the bantering couple, is one of Hollywood's favorite topics for movies). True, that Harry and Hermione might fit one of these three romantic situations, but Ron and Hermione fit two (if not all) of the three. I think they will be the most likely couple to emerge from the books.
I don't think people are more interested in the 'ships compared to the rest of the story, or that more people are interested in them. I think, for most people, it is just a piece of the puzzle that has been left so ambiguous that it is debate worthy.
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Not So Headless Nikki - May 27, 2005 5:16 pm (#894 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
S.E.Jones - "I think, for most people, it is just a piece of the puzzle that has been left so ambiguous that it is debate worthy."
I guess that's true. Maybe it's just because there are so many editorials/essays, etc. out there on the internet about this topic that it seems to be a bigger issue. Although that could be said for many parts of the HP series.
I too had mentioned in an earlier post how Harry and Hermoine remind me of Emma and Mr. Knightley. Given that JKR loves red herrings and the fact that right now it would seem most likely that R and H will be together, I think she is trying to distract us from the truth...that Harry and Hermoine will be together. (Just HAD to throw that in there.)
Does anyone know who Luna likes?
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coolbeans3131 - May 27, 2005 8:06 pm (#895 of 1858)
Luna seemed to like Ron to me. I hope so. It would be good for his self esteem to have a girl go after him. Part of what bothers me about R/H is how disrespectful of Ron Hermione can be.
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Professor V - May 27, 2005 9:43 pm (#896 of 1858)
Luna certainly seems to like Ron, more often than not she addresses him alone/specifically even when he is in a crowd and then there is her humming of "Weasley is Our King", quite often.
As to H/H and R/H, I have found that it depends of the day you ask me and which of the books or chapters I have most recently read/listened to. There are good arguments to be made for each. If someone made me pick though I would probably pick R/H simply because as I read/listen to the books Ron and Hermione feel like a couple. Harry and Hermione feel like brother and sister. Yes I know it is almost too obvious but then again so were Ginny's feelings about Harry, the relationship between Krum and Hermione, and the relationship between Harry and Cho. Sometimes even those of us who love to hide our clues in the most subtle of places, like to put some clues on display.
I haven't ruled anyone out for Harry to 'ship with, amazingly enough, at least to me, I am even open to Pansy.
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frogface - May 28, 2005 1:54 am (#897 of 1858)
If there is one massive obstacle in the way of the R/H ship (which I do support, so don't get me wrong) the coolbeans is right, it seems to be a lack of respect. Hermoine doesn't seem to have the same respect for Ron that she does for Harry, mostly in terms of wizarding ability. Shes shown this from the word go, on that scene in book one on the train. However she does understand Ron's insecurity's about feeling inadequate compared with Harry and with his brothers, and so if she can learn to respect Ron for his qualities, such as his loyalty, his open-mindness - on some matters at least - and the way in which he sticks up for others who are less able to do it themselves. - Ron sticks up for Quirrel in book one for a time, telling people off for making fun of his stutter, and on at least a few occasions he seems to look out for Neville too.
On his part, I think Ron just has to be brave, and admit how he feels about Hermoine to her properly. He wants her to just understand and make the first move, and it seems she does understand, but she wants him to say it outloud first. Bless them, they are so close yet so far!
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Not So Headless Nikki - May 28, 2005 12:28 pm (#898 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
I too think that Luna likes Ron, just judging by the way that she over-laughs at his joke, calls him Ronald, etc.
I am re-reading OoTP and I noticed something fishy during the scene of Snape and Harry's first Occlumency lesson. When Snape first tries to get into Harry's mind, his sees images in Harry's mind. One of those visions is Hermoine covered in thick black hair (can't remember if that's from COS?) Anyways, after that Snape tells Harry that he is handing him things he FEARS-weapons. And then he tells him that fools who wear thier hearts on their sleeves are weak. Hmm...that scene had had never jumped out at me before, but after reading it from the H/H point of view, it struck me as very telling.
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Cornelia - May 28, 2005 12:38 pm (#899 of 1858)
I´m not sure, but I think this comment is connected with the image of the dead Cedric Diggory?
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Not So Headless Nikki - May 28, 2005 12:43 pm (#900 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
Yes but go back and read that scene again and you will notice that all the things that Snape sees are images of unpleasant things in Harry's life. It just struck me that we would only see an image of Hermoine. What about Ron? How come we didn't see any unpleasant things regarding him? I just thought that was very telling. Oh! I just reread that scene again and I noticed that all those "unhappy" things were immediately followed by Cho drawing near to him under the mistletoe!! Why would that be included in that list, given the flow of Harry's thoughts?!?
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Muggle Doctor,
I'm pretty sure JKR stated that Amelia will not become Minister, because I remember being disappointed. Sorry, but I don't have time to look it up now. Gotta run...
KWeldon
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kabloink! - May 3, 2005 1:16 am (#852 of 1858)
Optician's Assistant
Puck, I agree with you about the bickering. I think it does have a lot to do with the tension currently between them. I doubt it will disappear completely, but it will probably be minimalized. I think Hermione's relationship with Viktor will eventually help to push along the 'ship between her and ROn. Jealousy and whatnot, not that Hermione would do it on purpose, but if Viktor were to surface in Britain, Ron might come to his senses more quickly than he would have otherwise.
I am also a big fan of the Harry / Ginny 'ship. I have my doubts as to whether or not it will happen, but I like the idea that someone mentioned of Ginny being in a relationship and Harry crushing for a bit. Isn't that the way it always works out? And she's been around him for so long now that the 'boy who lived' thing doesn't seem to even cross her mind anymore-He's just Harry.
THe Harry/Luna 'ship I have nothing against, just a gut feeling that tells me I would be disappointed if that was what happened. I can see it as a possibility, though, especially after the end of OoP.
Now Charlie and TOnks...that I'll have to think about. What about the twins? Does anyone think they'll find love? Okay, rambling now. I'm going to try to write my final paper now.
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Morgan Champion - May 3, 2005 2:51 am (#853 of 1858)
I also tend to favour the Harry/Ginny & Ron/Hermione 'ships.
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Tomoé - May 3, 2005 11:50 am (#854 of 1858)
Back in business
Muggle Doctor -> Susan Bones, the niece of one of Harry's most powerful supporters in the Ministry [...] Amelia Bones saw to it that he got a fair trial, and her question about the corporeal patronus and her reaction to it clearly showed on which side her loyalties lay.
Did you forget her questionning about Mrs Figgs testimony? Mme Bones is not anyone's supporter, she support the truth and was neutral in Harry's trial. That doesn't mean Susan chances are ruined, though, but I do believe the "she now had a good idea what it felt like to be Harry" line is overrated.
fbv807 -> Ron will just never get anybody
Yahooligan_Brian asks: Will Ron ever get a girlfriend?
jkrowling_bn: I'm laughing again... why wouldn't he?!
though he's not doing too well at the moment, is he?
but then, Fleur Delacour was really aiming a bit high
I believe Ron and Hermione will end up together (it's more because of the interview than the books, Hermione doesn't seem to be very interested by book 5), but I have really no idea for Harry, it could be just anyone.
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Solitaire - May 3, 2005 12:01 pm (#855 of 1858)
While I think the twins are a hoot, I think it would take an extremely patient woman to be willing to marry either of them--although George may have a slight edge, since Fred seems to be the instigator of most of their shenanigans. I think they are probably brilliant and talented wizards, but unless they begin to show a slightly more serious side, it could be a while for them. Then again, if they survive the war, maybe all of the women will be after them, since everyone will need a bit of levity in their lives. It's hard to say ... Tonks might like one of them!
Solitaire
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Finn BV - May 3, 2005 1:31 pm (#856 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Interesting, Solitaire… hadn't ever thought of a 'ship for the twins.
You mention that "if they survive the war": I don't know where I heard it, but somewhere JKR said that she like writing the twins too much, or something. Even if she didn't say it, I can imagine that writing their parts would be extremely fun. So, I think they will stay around through the saga.
However, I can see many women going after the twins - they're a very likeable type - the thing is, will the twins really want to even have a 'ship?
-fbv-
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Tomoé - May 3, 2005 1:46 pm (#857 of 1858)
Back in business
Angelina was willing to go to the Ball with Fred, so their case shouldn't be totally hopeless. ^_~
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Finn BV - May 3, 2005 2:08 pm (#858 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Yeah, but she didn't seem completely overjoyed to go.
And then what about George?
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Snuffles - May 3, 2005 2:17 pm (#859 of 1858)
Olivia
It wouldn't suprise me if both the twins went with Angelina to the ball, only she wasn't aware of it! I can just see one of them disappearing to the toilet and the other appearing a minute later.
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Puck - May 3, 2005 8:27 pm (#860 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Oh, i think the twins would be wonderful to date. I bet if you managed to get them one one one they could show a serious side. Angelina played it cool, but she was quite pleased to be asked by Fred. (Love the switching off idea.)
I think Hermione does have an interest in Ron, but like Ginny has thought the situation hopeless, and best to move on. Or at least let Ron think she has.
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Muggle Doctor - May 4, 2005 3:22 pm (#861 of 1858)
Tomoe said
Did you forget her questionning about Mrs Figgs testimony? Mme Bones is not anyone's supporter, she support the truth and was neutral in Harry's trial.
In the literal sense you are right; however, with the prosecution case driven by Fudge and Umbridge, I felt that standing up for truth and impartiality was equivalent to favouring Harry. It would have been so, so easy just to go with the flow and agree with the Minister and his Toady-girl, but Amelia Bones bucked the trend and did the right thing. Given the political climate in the WW at the time of Harry's trial, that's equivalent to taking sides.
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Tomoé - May 5, 2005 7:54 am (#862 of 1858)
Back in business
Given the political climate in the WW at the time of Harry's trial, that's equivalent to taking sides.
That may be true in Fudge's mind, but I don't think Amelia was siding with Harry and Dumbledore in her mind. Tonks said she's fair and I believe it's just the way she is, she couldn't have looked herself in a mirror again have she follow Fudge's lead.
Errr .... we are in the 'ship-'ship thread ...
Let's talk about Neville. Jo said he won't end up with Luna. We also know his date with Ginny ended up poorly as she went with Michael Corner by the end of the night, so Ginny likely won't be his partner before some major event (could the DoM battle be just this?). We also Hermione was his first choice for the Yule Ball. So, will he end up Bachelor? Will he get more credits since he fought the DoM battle?
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Catherine - May 5, 2005 9:59 am (#863 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
I could see Neville and Susan Bones as a pair.
Susan's family has been affected by the Death Eaters, too. Also, it's possible that in her involvement in Law Enforcement, Susan's aunt, Madame Bones, would have known Frank and Alice Longbottom, as they were Aurors for the Ministry. That would be another connection.
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Solitaire - May 5, 2005 10:07 am (#864 of 1858)
Gee, I hope we don't cross off Neville based on what happened when he was 14. People change a lot, and Neville has had to overcome a lot of insecurities.
It is possible that Neville invited Hermione to the ball because she was the only girl of his year with whom he felt comfortable. After all, we don't see him talking much to Parvati or Lavender in any of their "shared scenes." We do know that Hermione has helped him in his classes. If she hadn't been going with Krum, I bet she'd have accepted Neville's invitation. I don't think Hermione is a snob.
Solitaire
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Muggle Doctor - May 5, 2005 7:44 pm (#865 of 1858)
We do know that Amelia found Harry's ability to produce a corporeal patronus impressive, and the fact that Susan mentioned it in this way (using "corporeal" as her aunt had) means that Amelia was impressed enough to mention it to Susan.
No doubt the fact of Harry's trial would have been reported in the Daily Prophet, as would the presiding witch, and Susan almost certainly would have asked her aunt questions.
Even though I can imagine Amelia Bones saying "Susan, did you know that the Potter boy can produce a corporeal patronus?", I have to admit, even I don't think she said it to get Susan interested in Harry. She MIGHT have suggested to Susan that it was about time a few Hufflepuffs stood shoulder-to-shoulder with him, though: "He's under a lot of pressure from the Ministry, Susan, and he has enemies at the school as you well know. It might be an idea for you to encourage a few of your House-mates to support him a little."
This may account for Ernie and Hannah (among others) being so willing to come to the DA lessons (and to support him - remember Ernie's speech) when, just last year, they'd been antagonistic to him over the "Support Cedric Diggory" business, and Ernie had all but accused Harry of attempted murder in Year 2.
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Choices - May 6, 2005 6:57 pm (#866 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I'm not really into the "ship" thing, but I was sort of thinking that Neville with Luna might work. Neville is so shy and Luna is sort of "non-threatening" and soft spoken and "dreamy" and I could see her and Neville together. I'm sure this must have been brought up before though.
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Solitaire - May 7, 2005 4:42 am (#867 of 1858)
Here is Jo's response to Neville and Luna as a 'ship.
Solitaire
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Choices - May 7, 2005 9:37 am (#868 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Now I know why I don't get into "shipping" - I'm definitely not good at it. Guess that means I shouldn't open that Match Making Service, huh? LOL
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Solitaire - May 7, 2005 10:31 am (#869 of 1858)
Could be you are like me ... more interested in other aspects of the stories? I've been teaching kids from ages 10 through 17 for over twenty years. I've seen how individuals' romantic likes and dislikes change over the course of several years ... so I don't put a whole lot of credence in the romantic choices one makes at the age of 15.
I realize some people do see their future mates at that age. I also admit that this is far more likely in the Wizarding World--where the dating pool is considerably smaller--than it is in the Muggle World.
Interestingly, while I believe the Wizarding World is slightly behind the modern Muggle World in some ways, the kids seem to have far more pressing concerns (life, death, wars) than Muggle kids at a a much earlier age. Who is dating whom seems kind of trivial right now in comparison to what our Trio knows is coming. These three--especially the boys--may be immature socially; however, they are far beyond many adults in their grasp of the problems facing their own society.
Solitaire
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KWeldon - May 8, 2005 1:12 pm (#870 of 1858)
Very well put, Solitaire, as usual.
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Betelgeuse Black - May 10, 2005 6:42 am (#871 of 1858)
I'm sure this has been discussed before but I thought I'd bring it up while we wait for the HBP.
I was re-reading GoF for the umpteenth time and I was struck by several things. We all remember the Yule ball and Ron's jealousy leading to a row afterwards. I have not seen it discussed where Hermione gets jealous of Fleur paying attention to Ron after the second task. Fleur was very glad that Harry (and Ron) helped Gabrielle back from the bottom of the lake. She kissed Harry, and then told Ron thanks for helping and kissed him. Hermione was not very pleased and kept ignoring Krum.
This just led me to stir the pot again and say that I support the obvious 'ship of Ron/Hermione. They have shown obvious signs that they are jealous when others get too close. I think it's a matter of maturity. (mainly for Ron.... well, maybe it won't happen :-) )
OK, imperturbable charm on the post.... Betelgeuse
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wwtMask - May 10, 2005 12:36 pm (#872 of 1858)
It might be worth mentioning that Hermione may be slightly jealous of Luna, if nothing else because Luna seems to be interested in Ron (of course, Luna's...unique outlook on life probably doesn't help).
I think Neville is ready to come into his own in this book. What that means for his social life is beyond me, but surely a few girls might be impressed by his performance in the MoM. He's a nice kid overall, no kind of ego problem and, with the boosts to his confidence he's had the last year, I'm sure that'll make him more attractive. Longshot 'ship: Parvati and Neville?
I don't think Madam Bones was trying to nudge her niece into a relationship with Harry. A corporeal patronus is apparently very impressive for a young person to perform and I can understand if she mentioned it when talking to Susan. Seriously, in the course of talking to a young person, most adults ask about school and Harry was probably an easy topic to bring up.
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Star Crossed - May 17, 2005 5:48 pm (#873 of 1858)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
For some reason, I've always been into Parvati and Dean, as well as Seamus and Lavender. They just seem the type to have a joint wedding, best friends all together and one of those happy-go-lucky things. Sort of like the Brady Bunch girls getting married.
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Muggle Doctor - May 18, 2005 6:48 am (#874 of 1858)
wwtMask, you've just given me the idea for a fanfic.
I will acknowledge your nickname when I finish writing it. You don't belong to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] do you? This may make it easier to credit you if you are, but nobody will have to join to read it when it's done.
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Not So Headless Nikki - May 25, 2005 1:09 pm (#875 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
This is my first post, and I specifically joined the forum so that I could post on this topic.
I am definitely a H/H shipper, and even the first time that I read the books I thought that it seemed evident that Harry and Hermoine were forming a relationship that would eventually lead into romance. I especially noticed the physcial contact between them. As things stand currently, it would seem to me that Harry has feelings for Hermoine subconsciously (as revealed in his dreams). But I think it will take a big event to happen that will cause him to realise how he feels about her on a conscious; i.e. if Ron and Hermoine were to start dating. I feel that their dating would certainly cause Harry anger at them, although at first I don't know if he'll really understand why he is so mad at them. After awhile I think he'll come to the realisation that he isn't mad at them for spending time without him so much as he's upset that he isn't the one spending time with Hermoine in a "special way".
Given that JKR likes Jane Austen and I have seen Hermoine and Ron's relationship compared to the banter between Mr. Darcy and Elizabeth (from Pride and Prejudice), I would like to compare Hermoine and HARRY'S relationship to that of Emma and Mr. Knightley (in Emma). Emma and Mr. Knightley were platonic best friends, with Mr. Knightley often being Emma's voice of reason. He rebukes her on several occaions (as Hermoine does to Harry). All along though Mr. Knightley is in love with Emma. Emma doesn't realise this until HER BEST FRIEND confides that she loves Mr. Knightley.
Hmm...seems like a very familiar situation to Harry and Hermoine. Hermoine is often the voice of Harry's conscience, and let's not forget that Cho did turn into Hermoine in Harry's dream--a dream loaded with symbolism.
Okay so those are just my 2 knuts.
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coolbeans3131 - May 25, 2005 2:14 pm (#876 of 1858)
Welcome Not So Headless Nikki! I am also a H/H shipper. I'm wondering how you see it all turning out? If R/H date and then Harry realizes his feelings, then what happens?
I see it somewhat similar to you only I think Hemione likes Harry, and wouldn't date Ron. Harry could see a close moment between R/H and it could awaken his feelings. That's what I imagine anyways.
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Ms Amanda - May 25, 2005 2:50 pm (#877 of 1858)
coolbeans3131 - "If R/H date and then Harry realizes his feelings, then what happens?"
Then, yippee! Ron and Luna get to be together!
Actually, I'm more of a Ron/ Hermione shipper. But, if Harry actually gets to be with Hermione, then I hope Luna catches Ron.
Not So Headless Nikki, thanks for the Jane Austen references. They're the reason I ventured onto this hot headed thread.
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Ruthie - May 25, 2005 4:35 pm (#878 of 1858)
I was sure that JKR said somewhere in some interview (lol) that Harry was not going to end up with anyone we have already guessed. She said (this is not a quote) it would be someone relatively low profile or at least someone we never would have thought of....to me this rules out Hermione. Sorry I don't know exactly what JKR said or where I even read this....
Perhaps it was just my imagination lol.
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applepie - May 25, 2005 4:38 pm (#879 of 1858)
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." -- Oscar Wilde
Maybe it's Susan Bones....she did like his patronus... Just kidding!
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Ruthie - May 25, 2005 4:47 pm (#880 of 1858)
Hehe applepie
Although it would put him in the good books with her mum, just in case. Also I think she said something about the relationship simbolising the main theme of the books...I really should find out where I read this or it could be a complete lie although now I think about it I may have seen it on another thread here....
Just found it lol. It's in the "Harry's ship uniting the houses" thread.
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applepie - May 25, 2005 5:05 pm (#881 of 1858)
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." -- Oscar Wilde
Sounds to me like the person would have to be in Slytherin to truly unite the houses, since Gryffindor and Slytherin seem to be worst enemies.
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Not So Headless Nikki - May 25, 2005 8:08 pm (#882 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
coolbeans-- That's pretty much what I meant about some "big event". Either it would take Ron and Hermoine actually dating to cause Harry to realise his feelings, or he would have to see an intimate moment between R/H, OR he would have to go through a near-death-experience with Hermoine where he would be forced to think of life without her--thus bringing his true feelings up front.
Right now, since it hasn't been specifically stated who Hermoine likes, I think that she might have feelings for both Ron and Harry, with Hermoine really wanting to be with Harry. I believe that she knows how Ron feels, and might use him to get Harry to show how he feels towards her. Does that make sense?
If my personal ship with H/H doesn't pan out than it seems most likely that Harry will end up Ginny. But I really REALLY don't want that to happen.
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frogface - May 26, 2005 1:50 am (#883 of 1858)
But Harry has witnessed situations between Ron and Hermione that suggest they like each other, many of them in GoF, and he didn't show any signs of jealously then. Also I don't think Hermoine would use Ron that way, thats a very cruel thing to do in my opinion. Hermoine has her faults but shes not a cruel person, and she is someone who appears to be very aware of people's feelngs. I don't see her behaving in a way like that.
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Not So Headless Nikki - May 26, 2005 7:05 am (#884 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
I guess what I meant about Hermoine was that if she thought that things are more or less hopeless with Harry, then she would date Ron simply because she knew how he felt about her already. Whereas with Harry, it hasn't been made clear yet. Think of the way that she reacted when she questioned him about his kiss with Cho.
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applepie - May 26, 2005 7:07 am (#885 of 1858)
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." -- Oscar Wilde
Hermione just seems to be so sincere in her efforts to help Harry understand Cho, that it doesn't seem that she is interested in him. She seems like a sister to Harry and more awkward around Ron.
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Ponine - May 26, 2005 4:37 pm (#886 of 1858)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
I completely agree, applepie
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Eponine - May 26, 2005 4:59 pm (#887 of 1858)
As do I.
I'm really hoping that HBP is going to put an end to the shipping speculation. It's not bad on this board because we have such great mods and shipping is contained to very few threads, but on other places on the web people can get pretty defensive about their ships.
It's my opinion that HBP, while not necessarily containing the ships actually happening, will be clear as to which way they are headed. Harry might not be dating anyone by the end of the book, but we'll see that he has definite feelings for someone.
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KWeldon - May 26, 2005 5:26 pm (#888 of 1858)
Unfortunately, if a ship for Harry begins and ends in HBP, then the speculation won't end. My money is on this scenario.
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Amilia Smith - May 26, 2005 6:10 pm (#889 of 1858)
Even if it doesn't end . . . Harry/Cho lasted for 3 books.
Mills.
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frogface - May 27, 2005 4:19 am (#890 of 1858)
We may get an answer to whether or not Ron and Hermione are destined to be or not though. I was certain we would get that answer in OotP and was really annoyed when we didn't! Several weeks alone together without Harry and they STILL didn't get it on! Come on guys!!!
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Muggle Doctor - May 27, 2005 4:55 am (#891 of 1858)
Several weeks alone together without Harry and they STILL didn't get it on! Come on guys!!!
Not that we've seen, anyway. It could be the last big secret they're keeping from him. Remember that almost everything we see is from Harry's perspective. If they've been snogging while he's at Privet Drive, he (and we along with him) will be the last to know.
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Not So Headless Nikki - May 27, 2005 6:31 am (#892 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
frogface - Several weeks alone together without Harry and they STILL didn't get it on! Come on guys!!!
LOL! I too was disappointed that the ships weren't made concrete in OoTP (even if that had been R/H).
It is true that even though these books are about Harry and his basically his fight against LV, people are more focused on what is going to happen with the personal relationships between the characters. I know that for myself, I am 50% interested in the series because I want to see who wins the war and 50% interested to see who Harry ends up with!!
I hope that JKR at least lets us know who likes whom FOR SURE by the end of HBP.
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S.E. Jones - May 27, 2005 11:30 am (#893 of 1858)
Let it snow!
The relationship between Ron and Hermione has been compared to Darcy and Elizabeth (Darcy being Ron and Elizabeth being Hermione), but it could also be compared to Emma and Knightly (Emma being Ron, in this case, and Knightly being Hermione). As most of Austin's romances spring up between two friends, one of which acts as the conscience for the other, I think people are more referring to the type of relationship than to specific parallels. The bantering, tension filled couple who seem, at first glance to be complete opposites, is a common literary device. You less often see the 'the person of my dreams was right in front of me all the time' sort of romance (although this could also be compared to Ron and Hermione) and the 'soul mate' immediate attraction (which, just after the bantering couple, is one of Hollywood's favorite topics for movies). True, that Harry and Hermione might fit one of these three romantic situations, but Ron and Hermione fit two (if not all) of the three. I think they will be the most likely couple to emerge from the books.
I don't think people are more interested in the 'ships compared to the rest of the story, or that more people are interested in them. I think, for most people, it is just a piece of the puzzle that has been left so ambiguous that it is debate worthy.
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Not So Headless Nikki - May 27, 2005 5:16 pm (#894 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
S.E.Jones - "I think, for most people, it is just a piece of the puzzle that has been left so ambiguous that it is debate worthy."
I guess that's true. Maybe it's just because there are so many editorials/essays, etc. out there on the internet about this topic that it seems to be a bigger issue. Although that could be said for many parts of the HP series.
I too had mentioned in an earlier post how Harry and Hermoine remind me of Emma and Mr. Knightley. Given that JKR loves red herrings and the fact that right now it would seem most likely that R and H will be together, I think she is trying to distract us from the truth...that Harry and Hermoine will be together.
(Just HAD to throw that in there.) Does anyone know who Luna likes?
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coolbeans3131 - May 27, 2005 8:06 pm (#895 of 1858)
Luna seemed to like Ron to me. I hope so. It would be good for his self esteem to have a girl go after him. Part of what bothers me about R/H is how disrespectful of Ron Hermione can be.
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Professor V - May 27, 2005 9:43 pm (#896 of 1858)
Luna certainly seems to like Ron, more often than not she addresses him alone/specifically even when he is in a crowd and then there is her humming of "Weasley is Our King", quite often.
As to H/H and R/H, I have found that it depends of the day you ask me and which of the books or chapters I have most recently read/listened to. There are good arguments to be made for each. If someone made me pick though I would probably pick R/H simply because as I read/listen to the books Ron and Hermione feel like a couple. Harry and Hermione feel like brother and sister. Yes I know it is almost too obvious but then again so were Ginny's feelings about Harry, the relationship between Krum and Hermione, and the relationship between Harry and Cho. Sometimes even those of us who love to hide our clues in the most subtle of places, like to put some clues on display.
I haven't ruled anyone out for Harry to 'ship with, amazingly enough, at least to me, I am even open to Pansy.
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frogface - May 28, 2005 1:54 am (#897 of 1858)
If there is one massive obstacle in the way of the R/H ship (which I do support, so don't get me wrong) the coolbeans is right, it seems to be a lack of respect. Hermoine doesn't seem to have the same respect for Ron that she does for Harry, mostly in terms of wizarding ability. Shes shown this from the word go, on that scene in book one on the train. However she does understand Ron's insecurity's about feeling inadequate compared with Harry and with his brothers, and so if she can learn to respect Ron for his qualities, such as his loyalty, his open-mindness - on some matters at least - and the way in which he sticks up for others who are less able to do it themselves. - Ron sticks up for Quirrel in book one for a time, telling people off for making fun of his stutter, and on at least a few occasions he seems to look out for Neville too.
On his part, I think Ron just has to be brave, and admit how he feels about Hermoine to her properly. He wants her to just understand and make the first move, and it seems she does understand, but she wants him to say it outloud first. Bless them, they are so close yet so far!
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Not So Headless Nikki - May 28, 2005 12:28 pm (#898 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
I too think that Luna likes Ron, just judging by the way that she over-laughs at his joke, calls him Ronald, etc.
I am re-reading OoTP and I noticed something fishy during the scene of Snape and Harry's first Occlumency lesson. When Snape first tries to get into Harry's mind, his sees images in Harry's mind. One of those visions is Hermoine covered in thick black hair (can't remember if that's from COS?) Anyways, after that Snape tells Harry that he is handing him things he FEARS-weapons. And then he tells him that fools who wear thier hearts on their sleeves are weak. Hmm...that scene had had never jumped out at me before, but after reading it from the H/H point of view, it struck me as very telling.
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Cornelia - May 28, 2005 12:38 pm (#899 of 1858)
I´m not sure, but I think this comment is connected with the image of the dead Cedric Diggory?
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Not So Headless Nikki - May 28, 2005 12:43 pm (#900 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
Yes but go back and read that scene again and you will notice that all the things that Snape sees are images of unpleasant things in Harry's life. It just struck me that we would only see an image of Hermoine. What about Ron? How come we didn't see any unpleasant things regarding him? I just thought that was very telling. Oh! I just reread that scene again and I noticed that all those "unhappy" things were immediately followed by Cho drawing near to him under the mistletoe!! Why would that be included in that list, given the flow of Harry's thoughts?!?
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Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 901 to 950)
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Cornelia - May 28, 2005 1:15 pm (#901 of 1858)
Hmm, I don´t know, maybe all were some kind of suddenly unpleasant moments? When Ron was knocked out in the chess game he told Harry before, when Aragogs relatives got both, Harry was the first being turned up-side-down, Ron came after him. At least bad news for Harry/Cho ´shippers I´d guess?
But, hmmm, I think, I still think the weapon comment is connected with the second "Legilimens"...
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Ponine - May 28, 2005 3:53 pm (#902 of 1858)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
What I derived from that passage with fuzzy Hermy, was Harry realizing that she stole the boomslang skin(?) from Snape's supplies in order to produce the potion, and that this was something he definitely wanted to hide from Snape. By thinking about them, he displayed these thoughts like a parade in front of the worst crowd in history.
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Miriam Huber - May 29, 2005 2:33 am (#903 of 1858)
Yes, Ponine, I agree!
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Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 1, 2005 6:50 am (#904 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
Just read your post Ponine about Hermoine. I guess you might be right. But I still think that it is interesting that JKR didn't write Harry seeing any images of Ron in that scene. And then, again, with the scene with Cho. To me, all those scenes were essentially bad except for the last image. Granted, that was the image that made Harry fight back, but it was just, well, interesting! Being a H/H shipper, it just jumped out at me.
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S.E. Jones - Jun 5, 2005 9:30 am (#905 of 1858)
Let it snow!
Arthur Levine, one of the publishers responsible for Scholastic, is mentioned on TLC:
Book Expo America: Levine Talks HP
Newsday is publishing a blog about Book Expo America, a publishing showcase taking place in New York City right now. The reporter spoke to Arthur Levine, publisher of Arthur A. Levine Books, the imprint under which Scholastic publishes Harry Potter, and though Levine spoke in his usual "saw nothing, know nothing" way, some of what he and others said might be considered a bit spoilery. Click below to read. Thanks, Bethany!
Alas, I was less successful wheedling any information about the new Harry Potter from the book's editor, Arthur Levine. "There's a new character named Maclaggen," he said, and spelled the name. And ...? And nothing. Levine clammed up. ... somebody dies. True? "I can neither confirm nor deny." Does Harry have a girlfriend? "I can't say ... He's definitely growing up in all areas of his life." Later, he said he didn't experience this book to be as dark as the last, though the overall arc of the series is that the "world is getting more pernicious". This one, he said, "has more romance in general". And then he and marketing VP Jennifer Pasanen, who was sitting in, started humming "Love is in the air". Well, it's a clue.
Unless someone swipes a copy of "HP and the Half-Blood Prince" (as two men already did in London, but they were caught), we'll have to wait until July 16.
On that day, said Pasanen, there are going to be at least 2,000 midnight parties (compared to some 800 Scholastic knew about at this point last time). Scholastic is printing 10.8 million copies (6.8 mill last time), and making 5.5 million giveaway tattoos, compared to 3 million bumper sticker giveaways with the last book. "There's a different scale," she said.
So, it would seem, from this, that romance will be a little more central to the plot in this one....
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Eponine - Jun 5, 2005 11:44 am (#906 of 1858)
Well, they are getting older. It's realistic for romance to become a little more prominent.
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Solitaire - Jun 5, 2005 11:50 am (#907 of 1858)
it would seem, from this, that romance will be a little more central to the plot in this one ...
I hope you are wrong. A little romance would be fun and would fit in naturally with the kids' ages. Too much focus on romance, however, would be a snore. I'm much more interested in other aspects of the story.
I hope that JKR at least lets us know who likes whom FOR SURE by the end of HBP.
I'm not sure if I feel this way or not. After all, we have another book to go, and a lot can happen. Our characters are in a full-fledged war, and we already know directly from Jo that there will be more deaths. How sad for our young characters to find their loves, only to lose them in book 7.
Solitaire
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S.E. Jones - Jun 5, 2005 12:43 pm (#908 of 1858)
Let it snow!
-- little romance would be fun and would fit in naturally with the kids' ages. Too much focus on romance, however, would be a snore.-- Solitaire
I knew 'more central' was the wrong wording to use. Oh well.... I meant that it will be brought more into the foreground than it has been before. I don't think it will ever be a part of the main plot.
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Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 5, 2005 5:53 pm (#909 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
Ooooh! That's cool to know that there will be some romantic aspects of the book. Can't wait!
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Puck - Jun 5, 2005 6:19 pm (#910 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Yes,Solitaire, it would be sad, but they might come to be more understanding of poor Cho, to loose a love at such a young age.
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Fawkes-The-Phoenix - Jun 6, 2005 7:14 pm (#911 of 1858)
Nooooooo!!!!!!!Ron & Hermione CAN'T be together...DEATH TO RONALD!!!!!!!!!!
Harry and Hermione all the way!!!!!:-)
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Czarina II - Jun 9, 2005 9:30 pm (#912 of 1858)
Hermione doesn't strike me as the right kind of girl for Harry, in the romantic sense at least. Harry is a very self-absorbed young man, owing to many factors. He does not do "give and take" very well, unfortunately. He like many the typical hero. Hermione needs someone who will compromise with her, and for her to compromise with. Since Harry Potter is not a romantic series, the focus will not be on Heroine Hermione trying to reform Hero Harry. Instead, they inhabit their own co-existing spheres. Many a great friendship (which I believe Harry and Hermione have) have been ruined by romance. I can easily see the two of them as adults being close friends, but not lovers and definitely not as a romantic couple. I see them as the opposite: Harry with his distinguished career as an Auror, heroic past, and perhaps a wife and family; and Hermione with her distinguished career, House-elf crusades, lauded intellect, and perhaps a husband and family -- and all of which would come together at weekend get-togethers and holidays. There would perhaps be brash-and-brave young Harrys and intellectually-gifted young Hermiones, but they would not be siblings.
Why ruin such a happy friendship?
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Ms Amanda - Jun 10, 2005 4:25 am (#913 of 1858)
While I'm not a Harry/Hermione shipper, I don't think that a relationship between the two of them would necessarily ruin their friendship, and mostly I'm basing that on personal experience.
I think that the adults around Harry (Rita and Molly, certainly) can see a possible relationship between the two that perhaps Harry does not understand. All the arguments in that respect (that the boy just doesn't get "relationship stuff" yet) that I apply to Ron, could well apply to Harry, too.
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timrew - Jun 10, 2005 3:59 pm (#914 of 1858)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Yes, would Harry and Hermione be really suited?
She is such a bossy, domineering type of a girl. Not Harry's type at all; but ideally suited to Ron, who has had his mother to contend with down the years.
As you can probably tell, I'm a Ron/Hermione shipper; but there again, I don't expect them to be getting together at all at the end of book 7. They would still be 17 year old, and nowhere near mature enough for a permanent committment.........
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frogface - Jun 11, 2005 3:08 am (#915 of 1858)
I don't know if they'll get together, but I think (and hope) we'll see something happen between them. After all, a few years is a long time to go bottling up your feelings from someone.
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Miriam Huber - Jun 11, 2005 3:40 am (#916 of 1858)
It has become that obvious between Ron and Hermione, I can´t imagine it going on like that for another book. It is time this "submarine" becomes a real ´ship.
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Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 11, 2005 6:51 am (#917 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
"They would still be 17 year old, and nowhere near mature enough for a permanent committment" - timrew.
I disagree, but mainly from personal experience. I met my husband when I was 16, and he was 17. A year later, we were engaged (while we were both still in high school). That was 8 years ago now and we are still together (and happily I might add). We were both mature enough to have a long-term relationship at that age, and I don't see why the wizarding world would be any different. If anything, it seems that wizards marry young, so we can assume that they probably would be mature enough; especially given all the situations that the trio has been involved in, things even Dumbledore (I think) said that grown-wizards haven't even faced. And remember, if they survive, they will have gone through a war. I would say that if they live through that they will be mature enough and probably will want to have a solid relationship with someone.
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timrew - Jun 11, 2005 2:50 pm (#918 of 1858)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Not So Headless Nikki: We were both mature enough to have a long-term relationship at that age.........
I quite agree with you, Nikki, that some teenage marriages do indeed work; and I'm sure that Hermione is mature enough for such a committment. But is Ron?
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azi - Jun 12, 2005 2:15 pm (#919 of 1858)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
Edited by Catherine Jun 12, 2005 2:54 pm
As an 18 year old, who only recently turned that age, I definately agree with Timrew. Although some people are high school sweethears and get married, a lot of relationships at that age don't last. I myself knew 2 couples who were engaged but then broke up a couple of months later. Most of the males I know are way too immmature for a long term relationship, let alone marriage. They prefer trawling the town centre streets at night, and acting in an ungentlemanly manner.
Azi, as you asked if your phrasing was allowed, I took the safe road and edited it a bit. Your caution served you well. --Catherine
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Ruthie - Jun 12, 2005 8:01 pm (#920 of 1858)
Good point Azi I think they definitely wouldn't be ready for marriage but I could see them in a more casual relationship.
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Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 13, 2005 6:59 am (#921 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
timrew-Of course RON won't be ready for that kind of relationship. But HARRY will!!! (Just had to throw that in there...)
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Solitaire - Jun 13, 2005 8:05 am (#922 of 1858)
The War the kids are entering at this point can affect them in different ways. Some may marry early, because they figure they may not live long enough to marry later. Others may want to wait until the war is over, so that they do not leave behind orphaned children and widowed spouses in the event they are killed.
Once the War is over, if the kids are still single, they could opt to take it easy and pursue careers (a few years of professional Quidditch for Harry). Or they might just want to put down some roots and begin establishing their own families. Such situations affect different people in different ways.
Solitaire
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 13, 2005 9:02 am (#923 of 1858)
I disagree, but mainly from personal experience.-- Nikki
Your personal experience is a perfectly valid basis to disagree with Tim. However, you should note that a great many people would agree with him for precisely the same reason.
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Ydnam96 - Jun 13, 2005 9:04 am (#924 of 1858)
Loopy Lupin, you are quite correct. Although my parents married straight out of High School and are still married 29 years later.
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Joanne R. Reid - Jun 13, 2005 12:22 pm (#925 of 1858)
Hi,
I'll add that my parents were both teenagers when they married. It was during WWII, and they had legitimate fears that Dad would not survive. I've always been thankful for that decision. It's one of the critical decisions that led to my existence.
We were making the final preparations for their 50th anniversary when my Dad died. So, it can work, but the odds were definitely stacked against them.
Thanks,
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Eponine - Jun 13, 2005 1:25 pm (#926 of 1858)
It's my opinion that because this is literature, any ships that involve Harry and Co. by the end of the books are going to be permanent. If it was real life, then anything's possible, but I don't see Jo having Harry and a girl get together just to break them up in the epilogue and tell us how Harry married random witch #3 from Hogsmeade.
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KWeldon - Jun 13, 2005 1:40 pm (#927 of 1858)
I couldn't have said it better, Eponine.
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frogface - Jun 13, 2005 3:15 pm (#928 of 1858)
I also agree. If JKR intends Hermione and Ron to be together by the end of the series then I imagine it will remain that way. It is possible Ron could have matured alot by the end of book 7 anyway, a person can change alot in two years, especially a teenager.
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Catherine - Jun 13, 2005 3:24 pm (#929 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
It is possible Ron could have matured alot by the end of book 7 anyway, a person can change alot in two years, especially a teenager. --frogface
Well, James apparently went from being an "idiot" at age 15 to dating Lily in 7th year, so it looks like it's possible.
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Hollywand - Jun 13, 2005 5:05 pm (#930 of 1858)
Gryffindor
Catherine, your post sparked this thought: since the two hands encircled in a golden cord have gray robes, the image may represent Harry witnessing at the "I do" moment for Lily and James as a memory. Hmmm.
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Catherine - Jun 13, 2005 6:04 pm (#931 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
I see your point, Hollywand, but I still thought the arms/hands looked boyish and/or masculine.
As for me, I rather thought they looked like a blood oath..
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Joanne R. Reid - Jun 14, 2005 9:36 am (#932 of 1858)
Hi, Catherine,
When I look at the two arms, they seem quite different, at least to me.
The arm on the right is strong and sinewy. It has muscular definition and the veins are popping out. To me, this is a man's arm, albeit a younger man's or perhaps a late teenage boy's arm.
The arm on the left, although showing firmness, does not show strength. There is no muscular definition. There are no popping sinews or veins. There are no muscles, veins or tendons in the hand. It's smooth and more like a young woman's than a man's arm.
Of course, that's just JM2K.
Thanks,
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Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 14, 2005 11:08 am (#933 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
Since the last few posts have been about the joined hands on the HBP cover, I'll add something too.
When I saw that picture I thought that it was Dumbledore and Harry. But I was thinking in my head, "Boy, Harry sure does look like a wimp! His arms are so, well, skinny!" It never even occurred to me that it might not be him. Now I think it could certainly be a woman. Joanne, which woman do you think it is?
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dobbyiscool - Jun 14, 2005 1:00 pm (#934 of 1858)
Whatever women do they must do twice as well as men to be thought half as good. Luckily this is not difficult. --Charlotte Whitton
I thought it was Harry. He's always described as being small and skinny.
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Saralinda Again - Jun 14, 2005 3:10 pm (#935 of 1858)
My Patronus is a Crumple-Horn Snorkack
Earlier on, in the Shortest Stay on Privet Drive thread, some folks interpreted one of JKR's statements (that Harry would leave early for a reason more pleasant than a court hearing this time) to mean that he might be leaving to attend a summer wedding. Several couples were mentioned, with Bill/Fleur somewhat ahead of the pack. Some posited that the Chapter Two title might be the venue for the wedding.
When I saw the hands, the first thing I thought of was the potential wedding.
JM2K
Sara/Kayte
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Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 14, 2005 4:02 pm (#936 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
What was the chapter 2 title again? I hadn't heard about a wedding?!?
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Saralinda Again - Jun 14, 2005 4:31 pm (#937 of 1858)
My Patronus is a Crumple-Horn Snorkack
Chapter Two heading is "Spinners End." There is no solid proof that there will be a wedding, but some have suggested that as the reason Harry leaves 4PD early.
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Ruthie - Jun 14, 2005 9:08 pm (#938 of 1858)
Is this the U.S cover? I haven't seen it yet and the one we're getting here (New Zealand) is of Harry and DD standing, wands raised, with rings of fire surrounding them - coming from their wands I think. Is this just the childrens cover? Would someone be able to give me a link to a page with the other cover please?
Help! I'm lost! Lol Thanks Ruth
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Tomoé - Jun 14, 2005 9:29 pm (#939 of 1858)
Back in business
It's on the full cover of the Bloomsbury's children cover (front, back, spin and flaps).
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Solitaire - Jun 14, 2005 9:33 pm (#940 of 1858)
Wow, Tomoé! Look at the clasped hands on that cover. They seem encircled by what looks like the gold "cage" that spun around Harry and Voldemort in the Graveyard of GoF ... don't you think?
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Tomoé - Jun 14, 2005 9:48 pm (#941 of 1858)
Back in business
I see Harry and Dumbledore locked in a powerful, but friendly, hand shake. To me, the position of the thumbs doesn't look like a hand fight. But maybe it's just me after all...
We have been talked about the cover on the Half-blood Prince thread from post #749, if you all want to join the discussion, better continue there.
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frogface - Jun 29, 2005 1:51 am (#942 of 1858)
Just had a rather disturbing thought. Ever noticed how Snape and Aunt Petunia are rather alike? Both are bitter towards Harry because of his parents, Snape because of James and Petunia because of Lily, both seem rather nasty but have redeeming qualities about them that mostly emerged through plot events in OotP. They both shut off their true feelings and hide them behind a facade of their rather scary personalities, and both have seem to be very confused about their apparent predujices and loyalties - Petunia entered into a magical contract to save her magical nephew even though she despises magic, and also remembered about the Dementors after 14 years of barely saying a word about the Wizarding world. And Snape not only switched sides but has only once showed signs of being racist toward Muggle borns, when he called Lily a Mudblood. (Even then I don't believe he meant it).
Could these two over come their predjudices? Will Snape get tired of his solitary life style and go looking for love? Could Petunia ever leave Vernon?!....lets all hope not. (If I wrote fanfic this would be hilarious and horribly scary all at the same time!)
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 29, 2005 4:17 am (#943 of 1858)
Lol, frogface, Petunia and Snape!
(Your comparison of the two characters was really good. They do seem to have frighteningly similar personalities in a lot of ways)
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Sarah Bates - Jul 2, 2005 7:41 am (#944 of 1858)
Hi, I don't get on very often but here is a thought (I haven't noticed that it has been suggested). What about Harry and Tonks getting together? I have read on another thread about Tonks taking on more of the big sister role but I thought they would make an interesting/lovely couple. Any thoughts.
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Solitaire - Jul 2, 2005 8:02 am (#945 of 1858)
Sarah, it has been discussed before, farther back in the thread. You might go back around post #305 and several posts following it. Some of us think they might make a good couple ... in about 9-10 years. A gap of seven years, however, when Harry is only 16 is rather a large one. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
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Muggle Doctor - Jul 3, 2005 6:18 am (#946 of 1858)
Frogface said: And Snape not only switched sides but has only once showed signs of being racist toward Muggle borns, when he called Lily a Mudblood. (Even then I don't believe he meant it).
Oh, I think he meant it all right (certainly he did at the time). Nor, in my opinion, is it the only time he ever said it (albeit perhaps under his breath). I am willing to concede that he has altered his position on Muggle-borns since, such that even if he would secretly prefer a pureblood campus, he is content for things to stay as they are.
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Star Crossed - Jul 4, 2005 5:02 am (#947 of 1858)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
My dad was just watching CNN and they had a segment about HBP. Well, this guy (Didn't tune in quick enough to see their names) was talking about what we can expect. He was mentioning romances and how Harry's getting some romance in this book. Then he said it could be Hermione or it could be Ron and Hermione continuing their blossoming relationship.
Looks like we're going to finally put an end to this discussion.
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mike miller - Jul 5, 2005 7:23 am (#948 of 1858)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Sarah - There's plenty of room on the Harry/Tonks 'ship. There are only a couple of us who are willing to enterain the idea. As Solitaire has rightly called out, the age differnce is significant at this point in the story; and, I think Harry has plenty to "get on with" without a "serious" romance. However, in 9 or 10 years and after Harry has completed Auror training, I think tonks would be a good match.
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Solitaire - Jul 5, 2005 3:32 pm (#949 of 1858)
Mike, while I do think the difference is too great at this particular moment, I agree about the future. And frankly, in Wizarding time, what's a ten (or even fifteen) year age difference, anyway? LOL
Solitaire
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Liz Mann - Jul 6, 2005 1:21 pm (#950 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Tonks has to be at least twenty four, because Auror training takes a further three years after Hogwarts, and McGonagall said that no one has been taken on as an Auror in the last three years. So Tonks must have graduated Hogwarts at least six years ago, which means there's probably about eight years between herself and Harry. I agree that eight years won't make much of a difference when Harry's a bit older.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Hmm, I don´t know, maybe all were some kind of suddenly unpleasant moments? When Ron was knocked out in the chess game he told Harry before, when Aragogs relatives got both, Harry was the first being turned up-side-down, Ron came after him. At least bad news for Harry/Cho ´shippers I´d guess?
But, hmmm, I think, I still think the weapon comment is connected with the second "Legilimens"...
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Ponine - May 28, 2005 3:53 pm (#902 of 1858)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
What I derived from that passage with fuzzy Hermy, was Harry realizing that she stole the boomslang skin(?) from Snape's supplies in order to produce the potion, and that this was something he definitely wanted to hide from Snape. By thinking about them, he displayed these thoughts like a parade in front of the worst crowd in history.
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Miriam Huber - May 29, 2005 2:33 am (#903 of 1858)
Yes, Ponine, I agree!
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Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 1, 2005 6:50 am (#904 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
Just read your post Ponine about Hermoine. I guess you might be right. But I still think that it is interesting that JKR didn't write Harry seeing any images of Ron in that scene. And then, again, with the scene with Cho. To me, all those scenes were essentially bad except for the last image. Granted, that was the image that made Harry fight back, but it was just, well, interesting! Being a H/H shipper, it just jumped out at me.
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S.E. Jones - Jun 5, 2005 9:30 am (#905 of 1858)
Let it snow!
Arthur Levine, one of the publishers responsible for Scholastic, is mentioned on TLC:
Book Expo America: Levine Talks HP
Newsday is publishing a blog about Book Expo America, a publishing showcase taking place in New York City right now. The reporter spoke to Arthur Levine, publisher of Arthur A. Levine Books, the imprint under which Scholastic publishes Harry Potter, and though Levine spoke in his usual "saw nothing, know nothing" way, some of what he and others said might be considered a bit spoilery. Click below to read. Thanks, Bethany!
Alas, I was less successful wheedling any information about the new Harry Potter from the book's editor, Arthur Levine. "There's a new character named Maclaggen," he said, and spelled the name. And ...? And nothing. Levine clammed up. ... somebody dies. True? "I can neither confirm nor deny." Does Harry have a girlfriend? "I can't say ... He's definitely growing up in all areas of his life." Later, he said he didn't experience this book to be as dark as the last, though the overall arc of the series is that the "world is getting more pernicious". This one, he said, "has more romance in general". And then he and marketing VP Jennifer Pasanen, who was sitting in, started humming "Love is in the air". Well, it's a clue.
Unless someone swipes a copy of "HP and the Half-Blood Prince" (as two men already did in London, but they were caught), we'll have to wait until July 16.
On that day, said Pasanen, there are going to be at least 2,000 midnight parties (compared to some 800 Scholastic knew about at this point last time). Scholastic is printing 10.8 million copies (6.8 mill last time), and making 5.5 million giveaway tattoos, compared to 3 million bumper sticker giveaways with the last book. "There's a different scale," she said.
So, it would seem, from this, that romance will be a little more central to the plot in this one....
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Eponine - Jun 5, 2005 11:44 am (#906 of 1858)
Well, they are getting older. It's realistic for romance to become a little more prominent.
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Solitaire - Jun 5, 2005 11:50 am (#907 of 1858)
it would seem, from this, that romance will be a little more central to the plot in this one ...
I hope you are wrong. A little romance would be fun and would fit in naturally with the kids' ages. Too much focus on romance, however, would be a snore. I'm much more interested in other aspects of the story.
I hope that JKR at least lets us know who likes whom FOR SURE by the end of HBP.
I'm not sure if I feel this way or not. After all, we have another book to go, and a lot can happen. Our characters are in a full-fledged war, and we already know directly from Jo that there will be more deaths. How sad for our young characters to find their loves, only to lose them in book 7.
Solitaire
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S.E. Jones - Jun 5, 2005 12:43 pm (#908 of 1858)
Let it snow!
-- little romance would be fun and would fit in naturally with the kids' ages. Too much focus on romance, however, would be a snore.-- Solitaire
I knew 'more central' was the wrong wording to use. Oh well.... I meant that it will be brought more into the foreground than it has been before. I don't think it will ever be a part of the main plot.
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Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 5, 2005 5:53 pm (#909 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
Ooooh! That's cool to know that there will be some romantic aspects of the book. Can't wait!
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Puck - Jun 5, 2005 6:19 pm (#910 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Yes,Solitaire, it would be sad, but they might come to be more understanding of poor Cho, to loose a love at such a young age.
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Fawkes-The-Phoenix - Jun 6, 2005 7:14 pm (#911 of 1858)
Nooooooo!!!!!!!Ron & Hermione CAN'T be together...DEATH TO RONALD!!!!!!!!!!
Harry and Hermione all the way!!!!!:-)
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Czarina II - Jun 9, 2005 9:30 pm (#912 of 1858)
Hermione doesn't strike me as the right kind of girl for Harry, in the romantic sense at least. Harry is a very self-absorbed young man, owing to many factors. He does not do "give and take" very well, unfortunately. He like many the typical hero. Hermione needs someone who will compromise with her, and for her to compromise with. Since Harry Potter is not a romantic series, the focus will not be on Heroine Hermione trying to reform Hero Harry. Instead, they inhabit their own co-existing spheres. Many a great friendship (which I believe Harry and Hermione have) have been ruined by romance. I can easily see the two of them as adults being close friends, but not lovers and definitely not as a romantic couple. I see them as the opposite: Harry with his distinguished career as an Auror, heroic past, and perhaps a wife and family; and Hermione with her distinguished career, House-elf crusades, lauded intellect, and perhaps a husband and family -- and all of which would come together at weekend get-togethers and holidays. There would perhaps be brash-and-brave young Harrys and intellectually-gifted young Hermiones, but they would not be siblings.
Why ruin such a happy friendship?
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Ms Amanda - Jun 10, 2005 4:25 am (#913 of 1858)
While I'm not a Harry/Hermione shipper, I don't think that a relationship between the two of them would necessarily ruin their friendship, and mostly I'm basing that on personal experience.
I think that the adults around Harry (Rita and Molly, certainly) can see a possible relationship between the two that perhaps Harry does not understand. All the arguments in that respect (that the boy just doesn't get "relationship stuff" yet) that I apply to Ron, could well apply to Harry, too.
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timrew - Jun 10, 2005 3:59 pm (#914 of 1858)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Yes, would Harry and Hermione be really suited?
She is such a bossy, domineering type of a girl. Not Harry's type at all; but ideally suited to Ron, who has had his mother to contend with down the years.
As you can probably tell, I'm a Ron/Hermione shipper; but there again, I don't expect them to be getting together at all at the end of book 7. They would still be 17 year old, and nowhere near mature enough for a permanent committment.........
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frogface - Jun 11, 2005 3:08 am (#915 of 1858)
I don't know if they'll get together, but I think (and hope) we'll see something happen between them. After all, a few years is a long time to go bottling up your feelings from someone.
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Miriam Huber - Jun 11, 2005 3:40 am (#916 of 1858)
It has become that obvious between Ron and Hermione, I can´t imagine it going on like that for another book. It is time this "submarine" becomes a real ´ship.
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Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 11, 2005 6:51 am (#917 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
"They would still be 17 year old, and nowhere near mature enough for a permanent committment" - timrew.
I disagree, but mainly from personal experience. I met my husband when I was 16, and he was 17. A year later, we were engaged (while we were both still in high school). That was 8 years ago now and we are still together (and happily I might add). We were both mature enough to have a long-term relationship at that age, and I don't see why the wizarding world would be any different. If anything, it seems that wizards marry young, so we can assume that they probably would be mature enough; especially given all the situations that the trio has been involved in, things even Dumbledore (I think) said that grown-wizards haven't even faced. And remember, if they survive, they will have gone through a war. I would say that if they live through that they will be mature enough and probably will want to have a solid relationship with someone.
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timrew - Jun 11, 2005 2:50 pm (#918 of 1858)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Not So Headless Nikki: We were both mature enough to have a long-term relationship at that age.........
I quite agree with you, Nikki, that some teenage marriages do indeed work; and I'm sure that Hermione is mature enough for such a committment. But is Ron?
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azi - Jun 12, 2005 2:15 pm (#919 of 1858)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
Edited by Catherine Jun 12, 2005 2:54 pm
As an 18 year old, who only recently turned that age, I definately agree with Timrew. Although some people are high school sweethears and get married, a lot of relationships at that age don't last. I myself knew 2 couples who were engaged but then broke up a couple of months later. Most of the males I know are way too immmature for a long term relationship, let alone marriage. They prefer trawling the town centre streets at night, and acting in an ungentlemanly manner.
Azi, as you asked if your phrasing was allowed, I took the safe road and edited it a bit. Your caution served you well. --Catherine
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Ruthie - Jun 12, 2005 8:01 pm (#920 of 1858)
Good point Azi I think they definitely wouldn't be ready for marriage but I could see them in a more casual relationship.
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Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 13, 2005 6:59 am (#921 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
timrew-Of course RON won't be ready for that kind of relationship. But HARRY will!!!
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Solitaire - Jun 13, 2005 8:05 am (#922 of 1858)
The War the kids are entering at this point can affect them in different ways. Some may marry early, because they figure they may not live long enough to marry later. Others may want to wait until the war is over, so that they do not leave behind orphaned children and widowed spouses in the event they are killed.
Once the War is over, if the kids are still single, they could opt to take it easy and pursue careers (a few years of professional Quidditch for Harry). Or they might just want to put down some roots and begin establishing their own families. Such situations affect different people in different ways.
Solitaire
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 13, 2005 9:02 am (#923 of 1858)
I disagree, but mainly from personal experience.-- Nikki
Your personal experience is a perfectly valid basis to disagree with Tim. However, you should note that a great many people would agree with him for precisely the same reason.
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Ydnam96 - Jun 13, 2005 9:04 am (#924 of 1858)
Loopy Lupin, you are quite correct. Although my parents married straight out of High School and are still married 29 years later.
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Joanne R. Reid - Jun 13, 2005 12:22 pm (#925 of 1858)
Hi,
I'll add that my parents were both teenagers when they married. It was during WWII, and they had legitimate fears that Dad would not survive. I've always been thankful for that decision. It's one of the critical decisions that led to my existence.
We were making the final preparations for their 50th anniversary when my Dad died. So, it can work, but the odds were definitely stacked against them.
Thanks,
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Eponine - Jun 13, 2005 1:25 pm (#926 of 1858)
It's my opinion that because this is literature, any ships that involve Harry and Co. by the end of the books are going to be permanent. If it was real life, then anything's possible, but I don't see Jo having Harry and a girl get together just to break them up in the epilogue and tell us how Harry married random witch #3 from Hogsmeade.
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KWeldon - Jun 13, 2005 1:40 pm (#927 of 1858)
I couldn't have said it better, Eponine.
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frogface - Jun 13, 2005 3:15 pm (#928 of 1858)
I also agree. If JKR intends Hermione and Ron to be together by the end of the series then I imagine it will remain that way. It is possible Ron could have matured alot by the end of book 7 anyway, a person can change alot in two years, especially a teenager.
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Catherine - Jun 13, 2005 3:24 pm (#929 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
It is possible Ron could have matured alot by the end of book 7 anyway, a person can change alot in two years, especially a teenager. --frogface
Well, James apparently went from being an "idiot" at age 15 to dating Lily in 7th year, so it looks like it's possible.
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Hollywand - Jun 13, 2005 5:05 pm (#930 of 1858)
Gryffindor
Catherine, your post sparked this thought: since the two hands encircled in a golden cord have gray robes, the image may represent Harry witnessing at the "I do" moment for Lily and James as a memory. Hmmm.
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Catherine - Jun 13, 2005 6:04 pm (#931 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
I see your point, Hollywand, but I still thought the arms/hands looked boyish and/or masculine.
As for me, I rather thought they looked like a blood oath..
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Joanne R. Reid - Jun 14, 2005 9:36 am (#932 of 1858)
Hi, Catherine,
When I look at the two arms, they seem quite different, at least to me.
The arm on the right is strong and sinewy. It has muscular definition and the veins are popping out. To me, this is a man's arm, albeit a younger man's or perhaps a late teenage boy's arm.
The arm on the left, although showing firmness, does not show strength. There is no muscular definition. There are no popping sinews or veins. There are no muscles, veins or tendons in the hand. It's smooth and more like a young woman's than a man's arm.
Of course, that's just JM2K.
Thanks,
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Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 14, 2005 11:08 am (#933 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
Since the last few posts have been about the joined hands on the HBP cover, I'll add something too.
When I saw that picture I thought that it was Dumbledore and Harry. But I was thinking in my head, "Boy, Harry sure does look like a wimp! His arms are so, well, skinny!" It never even occurred to me that it might not be him. Now I think it could certainly be a woman. Joanne, which woman do you think it is?
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dobbyiscool - Jun 14, 2005 1:00 pm (#934 of 1858)
Whatever women do they must do twice as well as men to be thought half as good. Luckily this is not difficult. --Charlotte Whitton
I thought it was Harry. He's always described as being small and skinny.
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Saralinda Again - Jun 14, 2005 3:10 pm (#935 of 1858)
My Patronus is a Crumple-Horn Snorkack
Earlier on, in the Shortest Stay on Privet Drive thread, some folks interpreted one of JKR's statements (that Harry would leave early for a reason more pleasant than a court hearing this time) to mean that he might be leaving to attend a summer wedding. Several couples were mentioned, with Bill/Fleur somewhat ahead of the pack. Some posited that the Chapter Two title might be the venue for the wedding.
When I saw the hands, the first thing I thought of was the potential wedding.
JM2K
Sara/Kayte
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Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 14, 2005 4:02 pm (#936 of 1858)
Proud member of FSODUHP!
What was the chapter 2 title again? I hadn't heard about a wedding?!?
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Saralinda Again - Jun 14, 2005 4:31 pm (#937 of 1858)
My Patronus is a Crumple-Horn Snorkack
Chapter Two heading is "Spinners End." There is no solid proof that there will be a wedding, but some have suggested that as the reason Harry leaves 4PD early.
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Ruthie - Jun 14, 2005 9:08 pm (#938 of 1858)
Is this the U.S cover? I haven't seen it yet and the one we're getting here (New Zealand) is of Harry and DD standing, wands raised, with rings of fire surrounding them - coming from their wands I think. Is this just the childrens cover? Would someone be able to give me a link to a page with the other cover please?
Help! I'm lost! Lol Thanks Ruth
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Tomoé - Jun 14, 2005 9:29 pm (#939 of 1858)
Back in business
It's on the full cover of the Bloomsbury's children cover (front, back, spin and flaps).
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Solitaire - Jun 14, 2005 9:33 pm (#940 of 1858)
Wow, Tomoé! Look at the clasped hands on that cover. They seem encircled by what looks like the gold "cage" that spun around Harry and Voldemort in the Graveyard of GoF ... don't you think?
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Tomoé - Jun 14, 2005 9:48 pm (#941 of 1858)
Back in business
I see Harry and Dumbledore locked in a powerful, but friendly, hand shake. To me, the position of the thumbs doesn't look like a hand fight. But maybe it's just me after all...
We have been talked about the cover on the Half-blood Prince thread from post #749, if you all want to join the discussion, better continue there.
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frogface - Jun 29, 2005 1:51 am (#942 of 1858)
Just had a rather disturbing thought. Ever noticed how Snape and Aunt Petunia are rather alike? Both are bitter towards Harry because of his parents, Snape because of James and Petunia because of Lily, both seem rather nasty but have redeeming qualities about them that mostly emerged through plot events in OotP. They both shut off their true feelings and hide them behind a facade of their rather scary personalities, and both have seem to be very confused about their apparent predujices and loyalties - Petunia entered into a magical contract to save her magical nephew even though she despises magic, and also remembered about the Dementors after 14 years of barely saying a word about the Wizarding world. And Snape not only switched sides but has only once showed signs of being racist toward Muggle borns, when he called Lily a Mudblood. (Even then I don't believe he meant it).
Could these two over come their predjudices? Will Snape get tired of his solitary life style and go looking for love? Could Petunia ever leave Vernon?!....lets all hope not. (If I wrote fanfic this would be hilarious and horribly scary all at the same time!)
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Mrs Brisbee - Jun 29, 2005 4:17 am (#943 of 1858)
Lol, frogface, Petunia and Snape!
(Your comparison of the two characters was really good. They do seem to have frighteningly similar personalities in a lot of ways)
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Sarah Bates - Jul 2, 2005 7:41 am (#944 of 1858)
Hi, I don't get on very often but here is a thought (I haven't noticed that it has been suggested). What about Harry and Tonks getting together? I have read on another thread about Tonks taking on more of the big sister role but I thought they would make an interesting/lovely couple. Any thoughts.
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Solitaire - Jul 2, 2005 8:02 am (#945 of 1858)
Sarah, it has been discussed before, farther back in the thread. You might go back around post #305 and several posts following it. Some of us think they might make a good couple ... in about 9-10 years. A gap of seven years, however, when Harry is only 16 is rather a large one. JM2K, of course ...
Solitaire
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Muggle Doctor - Jul 3, 2005 6:18 am (#946 of 1858)
Frogface said: And Snape not only switched sides but has only once showed signs of being racist toward Muggle borns, when he called Lily a Mudblood. (Even then I don't believe he meant it).
Oh, I think he meant it all right (certainly he did at the time). Nor, in my opinion, is it the only time he ever said it (albeit perhaps under his breath). I am willing to concede that he has altered his position on Muggle-borns since, such that even if he would secretly prefer a pureblood campus, he is content for things to stay as they are.
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Star Crossed - Jul 4, 2005 5:02 am (#947 of 1858)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
My dad was just watching CNN and they had a segment about HBP. Well, this guy (Didn't tune in quick enough to see their names) was talking about what we can expect. He was mentioning romances and how Harry's getting some romance in this book. Then he said it could be Hermione or it could be Ron and Hermione continuing their blossoming relationship.
Looks like we're going to finally put an end to this discussion.
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mike miller - Jul 5, 2005 7:23 am (#948 of 1858)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Sarah - There's plenty of room on the Harry/Tonks 'ship. There are only a couple of us who are willing to enterain the idea. As Solitaire has rightly called out, the age differnce is significant at this point in the story; and, I think Harry has plenty to "get on with" without a "serious" romance. However, in 9 or 10 years and after Harry has completed Auror training, I think tonks would be a good match.
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Solitaire - Jul 5, 2005 3:32 pm (#949 of 1858)
Mike, while I do think the difference is too great at this particular moment, I agree about the future. And frankly, in Wizarding time, what's a ten (or even fifteen) year age difference, anyway? LOL
Solitaire
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Liz Mann - Jul 6, 2005 1:21 pm (#950 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Tonks has to be at least twenty four, because Auror training takes a further three years after Hogwarts, and McGonagall said that no one has been taken on as an Auror in the last three years. So Tonks must have graduated Hogwarts at least six years ago, which means there's probably about eight years between herself and Harry. I agree that eight years won't make much of a difference when Harry's a bit older.
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 1440
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Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 951 to 1000)
Elanor Sun May 15, 2011 9:54 am
Solitaire - Jul 6, 2005 11:48 pm (#951 of 1858)
The Lexicon lists Tonks as having been born in '73, which would make her about 7 years older than Harry.
Solitaire
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Fawkes-The-Phoenix - Jul 7, 2005 5:57 am (#952 of 1858)
Nooooooo!!!!!!!Ron & Hermione CAN'T be together...DEATH TO RONALD!!!!!!!!!!
H/Hr Shippers here please
Got anymore proof they are going to get together??????
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Star Crossed - Jul 7, 2005 5:57 am (#953 of 1858)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Hi! Welcome to the forum! If you would like to discuss any potential Harry Potter ships, you should join us over at the ship's thread. We'll be welcome to have you there!
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Solitaire - Jul 7, 2005 7:53 am (#954 of 1858)
Um ... this is the 'Ship-'Ship (Exploring Relationships) thread!
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Star Crossed - Jul 7, 2005 9:33 am (#955 of 1858)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Yeah, sorry about that, Fawkes posted a new thread and I posted that message there. Apparently, we got moved over here.
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Catherine - Jul 7, 2005 9:33 am (#956 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
Solitaire,
I believe that a host moved Fawkes the Phoenix's post and StarCrossed's reply to this thread from another location.
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mike miller - Jul 7, 2005 10:00 am (#957 of 1858)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Fawkes-The-Phoenix - Since I think I was the first to propose the Harry/Tonks 'ship I'll recap my hypothesis. JKR's comments about no one really getting Harry's 'ship correct let's out most of the characters that we know that are close to Harry's age (possible exception of Pansy should Marcus' theory be correct). I started looking at the less obvious pairings. I had a "funny" feeling about Tonks since first reading her character; and, I know some others have had the exact opposite feeling. Tonks never treats Harry as the "Boy Who Lived", he's just Harry.
If you assume that Harry is going to be a little too busy in HBP and book 7 to develop a serious relationship, then we have to look to the epilogue and Harry's life after the defeat of Voldemort. I think it makes sense that Harry would indeed become an Auror, and after training and a few years "on the job" working closely with Tonks that the relationship would grow. After all Harry will have been through he will need someone with a good sense of humor and someone that doesn't take things too seriously.
Well that's all I've got, no solid canon evidence just gut feeling and a couple of disconnected clues.
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Solitaire - Jul 7, 2005 10:58 am (#958 of 1858)
Is my face red! We have all been so vigilant about trying to keep 'shipping posts out of every other thread that I thought maybe Star-Crossed just got a bit over-zealous! **embarrassed**
Mike, I think Tonks would be good for Harry. Come to think of it, I like younger men myself! Well, not as young as Harry, but ...
Solitaire
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Liz Mann - Jul 7, 2005 11:54 am (#959 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
JKR's comments about no one really getting Harry's 'ship correct let's out most of the characters that we know that are close to Harry's age.
When did she say that?
I still think Hermione likes Ron. On her FAQ, J.K. has the question "Does Hermione love Harry or Ron?", and she answered, "I can't believe some of you haven't figured this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I love." Which sounds to me like she has dropped a LOT of hints, perhaps quite obvious ones, as to who Hermione likes. And I think the evidence for R/H is a lot more obvious than H/H. And besides that, J.K. also said once that Harry and Hermione were just mutual friends, though I can't find the source now.
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mike miller - Jul 7, 2005 12:22 pm (#960 of 1858)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Liz - I'm sorry I can post a link to the original JKR interview transcript. I hope some of our Forum Friends can help us out here. The specific interpretation of the comments have been hashed and re-hashed so many times it's hard to find them, even with the search function.
Solitaire - Since there are so few passengers on the Harry/Tonks 'ship, you can have your choice of staterooms!
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I Am Used Vlad - Jul 7, 2005 12:43 pm (#961 of 1858)
I Am Almighty!
JEREMY PAXMAN: Unlikely pairings? Not Hermione and Draco Malfoy or anything like that?
JK ROWLING: I don't really want to say as it will ruin all the fan sites. They have such fun with their theories ... and it is fun, it is fun. And some of them even get quite close. No-one has ever - I have gone and looked at some of it and no-one's ever ... There is one thing that if anyone guessed I would be really annoyed as it is kind of the heart of it all. And it kind of explains everything and no-one's quite got there but a couple of people have skirted it. So you know, I would be pretty miffed after thirteen or fourteen years of writing the books if someone just came along and said I think this will happen in book seven. Because it is too late, I couldn't divert now, everything has been building up to it, and I've laid all my clues.
This is probably the quote mike means. It should be noted that JKR never says that Harry's 'ship hasn't been guessed, although many people take it that way.
mike, I didn't know you were offering staterooms. I may have to reconsider my ideas.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 7, 2005 1:13 pm (#962 of 1858)
If it is an unlikely romantic pairing, maybe Salazar Slytherin and Helga Hufflepuff were married. That would be 1000 years ago, right at the start of this mess. Imagine discriminating Salazar married to the woman who believed anybody at all with magical ability should be allowed into Hogwarts.
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Liz Mann - Jul 7, 2005 1:33 pm (#963 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I don't think she meant that Harry's ship hasn't been guessed. I think she strayed off on a tangent and started talking about theories in general being fun and some of them getting close.
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Steve Newton - Jul 7, 2005 2:06 pm (#964 of 1858)
Librarian
Yes, Liz, you are correct. This was discussed ad nauseum in the thread call, I think, Harry's Relationship Uniting the Houses.
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mike miller - Jul 7, 2005 5:23 pm (#965 of 1858)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Vlad - Thanks for the post. Since there are, at best, maybe 4 or 5 of us willing to say the Harry/Tonks 'ship actually makes some sense, it's not really very crowded aboard 'ship. I think there's one more stateroom on the Port side.
Liz - You're right in that JKR was less than direct in her answer, but when is she. The "no-one's quite got there but a couple of people have skirted it" part of the answer tells me Harry's 'ship is not any of the common pairings. The fact that Tonks accepts Harry for who he is, without pre-judging seems one of the points JKR is trying to make about how we treat each other as people.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 7, 2005 5:56 pm (#966 of 1858)
But Rowling doesn't even mention Harry in her answer. If she is talking about a 'ship, no reason to assume it is his.
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Denise P. - Jul 7, 2005 6:03 pm (#967 of 1858)
Ravenclaw Pony
If she is talking about a 'ship, no reason to assume it is his.
You mean, other than that the entire series is about Harry? I somehow doubt that something that JKR describes as it is kind of the heart of it all would not involve Harry. Since 'shipping was being discussed, I think it is reasonable to assume she was referring to a Harry 'ship.
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Steve Newton - Jul 7, 2005 6:07 pm (#968 of 1858)
Librarian
As I read that quotation it seems clear that the 'thing' is not a relationship.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 7, 2005 7:44 pm (#969 of 1858)
*hee hee** so many ways to interpret that quote. Anyway, if it is an unlikely 'ship, and Rowling has been laying all her clues about it for years, and it at the heart of the series, I'm having a hard time seeing how it must be a Harry/Whomever 'ship. Lily and James and their 'ship were important, as was that of the as-yet-named mother of Voldemort and her deadbeat husband Tom Riddle Sr. So it is possible that some other relationship besides one with Harry will be the thing that "kind of explains everything". If it is a 'ship that has been winding it's way through all of the books, then I would say it is very likely to not be one about Harry.
But of course, as others have pointed out, Rowling may not have been on about a 'ship, but off on a tangent.
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Herm-own-ninny Weezly - Jul 8, 2005 12:22 am (#970 of 1858)
Since there are, at best, maybe 4 or 5 of us willing to say the Harry/Tonks 'ship actually makes some sense, it's not really very crowded aboard 'ship. --mike miller
Though I do tend to lean towards a Harry/Ginny 'ship (and obviously a Ron/Hermione, based on my name ), I am definitely willing to agree that the Harry/Tonks 'ship would also make sense in the future. For my particular case, perhaps I could just have a guest room for a night or two?
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frogface - Jul 8, 2005 2:10 am (#971 of 1858)
I'm going to make a wild bet and say we've already seen Harry's ship. No, not Cho. Ron and Hermoine and Harry. I'm talking platonic shipping here. The love of three people that has so far carried them through 5 action packed years full of danger, and without each of the trio they wouldn't have made it so far. Without Ron they wouldn't have gotten beyond that chess board in book one, without Hermoine they would have never....well they wouldn't have lasted 2 mintues, and without Harry there wouldn't be a series at all. I think they are the heart of the series, and romance might come further into the main plot, but will essentially remain a popular sub-plot.
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Fawkes-The-Phoenix - Jul 8, 2005 5:16 am (#972 of 1858)
Nooooooo!!!!!!!Ron & Hermione CAN'T be together...DEATH TO RONALD!!!!!!!!!!
But who ever said that he will get married?????His relationship might not last after all, same goes with Ron/Hermione.
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mike miller - Jul 8, 2005 5:40 am (#973 of 1858)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Mrs. Brisbee - You make a very good point about "clues". A re-occurring theme (or clue) seems to be how different people and creatures are treated by the Wizarding community; and, it's this way that I connect a Harry/Tonks 'ship to the broader themes of the books.
How we treat each other seems to be a major issue for JKR. We've seen mistreatment, or prejudice or pre-judging as it relates to House Elves, Giants, Centaurs, Squibs, Muggle borns, Muggles, Werewolves, Merpeople and members of the other school houses. Have I missed anyone? We know that "Choices" is a key theme of the books. How we "Choose" to treat other people, especially when it's solely based on some kind of "label" placed on them, seems to me to fit quite nicely into this broader theme.
As I've said before, Tonks treats Harry as just Harry, not "The Boy Who Lived". Couple that with a good sense of humor and I think, in time, we have a good match for Harry's long-term happiness.
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Liz Mann - Jul 8, 2005 6:45 am (#974 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
We know that Harry has some romance in HBP. Arthur Levine (the Scholastic editor) and one of his collegues mentioned this, and they started humming "Love is in the air". Interesting choice of song, one that's talking about love. Granted most songs are about love, at least most recognisable songs, but they didn't have to hum a song at all. They'd already said that he has some romance, they didn't need the song. All this makes me think that whoever this romance is with, it might last, or become serious. Or that Levine and his collegue are shippers of this pairing and are very happy. Anyway, people have said that Harry/Tonks might happen when Harry is older, but if this pairing that's about to happen sticks, then I don't think it can be Harry/Tonks.
Personally I am a Harry/Ginny shipper. My reasons can be found here. However, if Harry does get together with someone in this book and then it doesn't work out (like with Cho) and he gets together with his ultimate partner in the seventh book (if he survives), then I would say perhaps Luna in this book.
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Solitaire - Jul 8, 2005 1:06 pm (#975 of 1858)
Didn't Jo say "a little romance"? That does not necessarily sound like the love of his life. Maybe it really is just a little romance ... period.
Solitaire
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Liz Mann - Jul 8, 2005 1:22 pm (#976 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Maybe it is. For now...
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Solitaire - Jul 8, 2005 4:54 pm (#977 of 1858)
One of the problems with Harry and Cho--as I saw it--is that he really didn't have enough time last year to give to building a real relationship with her. Their time was sort of "catch-as-catch-can." This coming year promises to be even more jam-packed, what with fighting the war and studying and prepping for N.E.W.T.s.
I may be wrong, but I just can't see Harry pursuing a serious relationship at this time. If a nice little romance happened to bloom right in his face, however--and the girl was available and open to it, as well (like Ginny, Luna, or Hermione)--hopefully he has learned something since Cho! Then again, Ron still seems to be clueless, so who knows ... ?
Solitaire
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Ginerva Potter - Jul 9, 2005 7:55 am (#978 of 1858)
Solitaire - I agree that Harry didn't have a lot of time to be with Cho last year. However, I think part of it had to do with a difference in houses. If they were in the same house, they would see each other more often and the opportunity for a ship is more likely. I'm on the Harry/Ginny ship. I think that since he fits in with the Weasleys it seems likely to me that he could fall for Ginny. They are in the same house at school, they will probably be playing quittich together, they have more chances to see each other than Harry did with Cho.
I think that the Cho relationship served its purpose. I think that if Harry's first relationship had been with Ginny, it wouldn't have worked out. He needed to grow up a little bit and he will act more grown up in this book.
I'm a Ron/Hermione shipper, too. I think Ron will finally get it in this book and their ship is going to sail!!!!
JM2K....
Ginny
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Star Crossed - Jul 9, 2005 9:47 am (#979 of 1858)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I was re-reading OP (I'm still in the first week of school and I only have a week left to read it!), more specifically Luna Lovegood and Neville/Ginny just jumped out at me. I never really liked it before, and I don't know if I really like it that much now, but I saw a lot of evidence there. I think Ginny would be great for Neville since she boosts his convidence:
"I'm nobody," said Neville hurriedly. "No you're not," said Ginny sharply. page 186, chapter 10 Luna Lovegood, Order of the Phoenix, American hardcover
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Liz Mann - Jul 9, 2005 10:57 am (#980 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Luna is an interesting person as far as ships go. She seems to show an interest in both Harry and Ron. She stares at them both a lot. But perhaps she shows more of an interest in Ron (her laughter at his joke about Goyle, her Gryffindor hat and coming to wish Ron good luck, her humming Weasley is Our King etc).
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Cuivienen - Jul 9, 2005 4:34 pm (#981 of 1858)
Actually, I've never really noticed Luna paying too much attention to Harry, just to Ron, who seems to hold most of her attention the whole time she is with the trio (and sometimes even when Ron isn't there such as when she hums "Weasley is Our King" under her breath). Of course, this says nothing about Ron reciprocating any of Luna's feelings.
I would, however, like to see Ron/Luna, Harry/Hermione, Neville/Ginny just to snub the beaten path.
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coolbeans3131 - Jul 9, 2005 8:58 pm (#982 of 1858)
I agree with you Cuivienen, Ron/Luna, Harry/Hermione, Neville/Ginny are my ships too. We seem to be in the minority, but we'll look real smart if we're right.
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S.E. Jones - Jul 9, 2005 11:59 pm (#983 of 1858)
Let it snow!
--You mean, other than that the entire series is about Harry? I somehow doubt that something that JKR describes as it is kind of the heart of it all would not involve Harry. Since 'shipping was being discussed, I think it is reasonable to assume she was referring to a Harry 'ship.-- Denise P.
I have to agree with everyone who said that she had strayed off of 'shipping and onto theories in general. To describe something as 'the heart of it all' doesn't sound like a 'ship to me, because 'shipping hasn't really been that important in the books thus far, and I don't foresee it becoming that important in the near future.
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haymoni - Jul 10, 2005 4:51 am (#984 of 1858)
I don't think the 'ship is the heart of it all either. But it could REFLECT the heart of it all. If the heart of it all is making the choice to do what is right (and that may not even be it!), the The Sorting Hat's song from Book 5 is still relevant.
When the kids return to school, we will see who stands with whom.
If the Houses have to work together to make Hogwarts safe, it would stand to reason that Harry's 'ship could come from another house.
Where is Prefect Marcus???
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Liz Mann - Jul 11, 2005 1:29 pm (#985 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Yeah, where is Prefect Marcus? I haven't seen him in ages.
I'm still a R/H, H/G shipper, but I think there could be brief spells of other pairings first, like with Harry and Cho.
The thing about Harry is that I think he needs a girl who will keep him on track, and help him with his problems (Cho just added to his problems, really). She also needs to be able to put her foot down with him when need be. And I think that girl has to be either Hermione or Ginny. Both have done those things before. Out of the two, I think Ginny would be better because even though she can be firm (and at times scary ), she still has a sense of fun, which Harry also needs. Hermione's a bit too sensible (except when she's standing up for something she passionately believes in).
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Ginerva Potter - Jul 12, 2005 6:52 am (#986 of 1858)
I agree, Liz. I'm a Ron/Hermoine, Harry/Ginny shipper, too. I think these pairings balance each other out a little better than a Harry/Hermione ship. I like Ginny. She is a strong personality, but not nagging like Hermione.
A Ron/Hermione ship balances, too. Ron is the joker, less likely to take things seriously. Hermione, the insufferable know-it-all , who takes everything seriously.
IMO, it just works.
Ginny
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Muggle Doctor - Jul 13, 2005 8:09 am (#987 of 1858)
Liz Mann said: The thing about Harry is that I think he needs a girl who will keep him on track, and help him with his problems (Cho just added to his problems, really). She also needs to be able to put her foot down with him when need be.
Liz, I would have to say that on the above data, I go for Luna. She is the only one we've seen so far who can touch Harry on his raw areas (e.g. Sirius) without it hurting him. The irony is that she is so far off his wavelength that he doesn't take anything she says to heart (in a negative way, anyway) and he doesn't get set off on one of the rages which characterised OOtP. The problem with Hermione and Ginny is that they're too close to him - Hermione is a living reminder that Harry should have done what she said, while Ginny's strong personality clashes with Harry's.
What is more, in all his raw, self-centred grief (whether justified or not) after Sirius's death, Luna is the only one, right at the end, who got him to feel something selfless. She is therefore also the only one who can put her foot down effectively - to make him stop and think before flying off the handle - until he regains his emotional equilibrium.
A line from E.E. Smith's Lensman novels comes to mind now: "I've got to really THINK, to think so it counts." He can feel as well, but Snape is right; some degree of emotional control is a must, or he's going to get more people killed (including, eventually, himself).
More than anything else, he needs someone who's shared his dangers; one thing is for sure, any of Hermione, Luna or Ginny qualify here.
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Solitaire - Jul 13, 2005 12:22 pm (#988 of 1858)
I don't think Luna was "putting her foot down." That phrase implies orders and ultimatums, and that is certainly not Luna. She also does not "make" Harry stop and think. Her words and manner cause him to think; this is different.
Luna is very much her own person, and she does not really seem to care much what others think of her. She marches to her own drummer. While I agree that she might be able to help Harry regain emotional equilibrium, it is for different reasons than you cite.
Luna takes things in stride and does not appear to get rattled by much. This calmness can help steady a hot head like Harry. Unfortunately, the same temperament that soothes can also tick off hot-headed people. Emotionally volatile people can become frustrated when others do not react as passionately as they do in certain situations. Behavior that is too calm and rational can anger them. We saw Harry get angry and frustrated with Dumbledore at the end of OotP, when Dumbledore ramained calm in the face of Harry's emotional tempest.
If Luna wants to 'ship with Harry, she is going to have to turn up her "enthusiasm burner." There needs to be a little "heat" there. If she stays too calm, he may feel she doesn't care. JM2K ...
Solitaire
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haymoni - Jul 13, 2005 4:46 pm (#989 of 1858)
I think Harry will stay away from anything serious, like going steady.
It has to be fairly clear to him that anyone that gets too close can be used by Voldy and put in grave danger.
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Liz Mann - Jul 13, 2005 5:36 pm (#990 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
That's true. But these things happen unintentionally.
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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 14, 2005 11:28 pm (#991 of 1858)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I don't think Harry will have much time for romance in HBP. He'll need time to learn how to deal with the terrible news of the predicition. He may, however, have a light go on on that emotion at the end.
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Liz Mann - Jul 15, 2005 3:38 am (#992 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Well, we know he will have some romance. We have it from three sources at least - J.K. herself: "He'll be busy, but what's life without a little romance?", The Bloomsbury website: behind Valentine's Day on their countdown calander, it has a picture of 'Harry 4 ... " carved into a tree, but the second name was blacked out along with all the space around the picture, and also Arthur Levine started humming, 'Love is in the Air' during an interview.
That's not to say this relationship will be serious... yet.
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Saralinda Again - Jul 15, 2005 7:48 am (#993 of 1858)
My Patronus is a Crumple-Horn Snorkack
Fifteen hours.
This is how I would like the 'ship to sail, at least for Book Six: Harry/Luna, Ron/Hermione, Neville/Ginny.
My personal prejudice is for a Harry/Luna 'ship forever, but I believe JKR would have introduced her earlier if she were to take a permanent place. My rationale for Luna is her behavior when they were all captured and in Umbridge's office. She alone of the six had the sense to stop fighting her captor and conserve her energy. I believe that Harry needs to learn how to pick his battles more effectively, too.
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Kip Carter - Jul 31, 2005 11:52 pm (#994 of 1858)
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
-- 'Ship-'Ship (Exploring Relationships)
madelinerock suggested this thread with the release of Book Six. It will eventually be moved to the existing, but closed, 'Ship-'Ship (Exploring Relationships) thread on the main page.
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Eponine - Jul 23, 2005 6:37 am (#995 of 1858)
Well, I have to say that I was completely pleased with the ships in HBP. I've been saying that H/G and R/Hr would happen for years. Lupin/Tonks was unexpected, but I liked it.
The Mugglenet/TLC interview has pretty much confirmed that R/Hr and H/G are the final pairings, and I'm happy about that.
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rassannassar - Jul 23, 2005 10:45 am (#996 of 1858)
It does seem kind of obvious that Harry and Ginny aren't done. Harry will realize that Dumbledore probably wouldn't have wanted for Harry to stop seeing Ginny if love truly is the greates power Harry has. And besides, Ginny won't give up and they will see each other at least one more time during Bill's and Fleur's wedding.
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TGF - Jul 23, 2005 11:17 am (#997 of 1858)
Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I think the core relationships are set in stone now... Harry/Ginny, Hermione/Ron. Not the ones I was gunning for, but I was satisfied by the way that H/G went and, though I thought that R/H was rather corny. In any case, the occasionally-vicious debates about the matter should now be pretty much at an end.
I don't think Ginny and Harry are done either, but I do believe that Harry isn't going to let her get close to him again throughout his quest to find the Horcruxes. I think Ginny's next important moment will be in the final battle.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 23, 2005 11:28 am (#998 of 1858)
I wonder whether Neville and Luna will find anyone or are they fated to be alone?
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haymoni - Jul 23, 2005 11:30 am (#999 of 1858)
I gathered from the funeral scene that they had found each other.
At least I hope so!
Hah - Gran's reaction to Luna!!!
Oh, that's better than Molly & Fleur!
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Paulus Maximus - Jul 23, 2005 11:40 am (#1000 of 1858)
I think that JKR denied that Neville and Luna would get together, although I don't have a quote to back it up.
I'm not sure that the Ron/Luna 'ship has sunk yet... Not only does Luna find Ron to be highly amusing, but also the other way around...
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
The Lexicon lists Tonks as having been born in '73, which would make her about 7 years older than Harry.
Solitaire
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Fawkes-The-Phoenix - Jul 7, 2005 5:57 am (#952 of 1858)
Nooooooo!!!!!!!Ron & Hermione CAN'T be together...DEATH TO RONALD!!!!!!!!!!
H/Hr Shippers here please
Got anymore proof they are going to get together??????
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Star Crossed - Jul 7, 2005 5:57 am (#953 of 1858)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Hi! Welcome to the forum! If you would like to discuss any potential Harry Potter ships, you should join us over at the ship's thread. We'll be welcome to have you there!
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Solitaire - Jul 7, 2005 7:53 am (#954 of 1858)
Um ... this is the 'Ship-'Ship (Exploring Relationships) thread!
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Star Crossed - Jul 7, 2005 9:33 am (#955 of 1858)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Yeah, sorry about that, Fawkes posted a new thread and I posted that message there. Apparently, we got moved over here.
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Catherine - Jul 7, 2005 9:33 am (#956 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
Solitaire,
I believe that a host moved Fawkes the Phoenix's post and StarCrossed's reply to this thread from another location.
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mike miller - Jul 7, 2005 10:00 am (#957 of 1858)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Fawkes-The-Phoenix - Since I think I was the first to propose the Harry/Tonks 'ship I'll recap my hypothesis. JKR's comments about no one really getting Harry's 'ship correct let's out most of the characters that we know that are close to Harry's age (possible exception of Pansy should Marcus' theory be correct). I started looking at the less obvious pairings. I had a "funny" feeling about Tonks since first reading her character; and, I know some others have had the exact opposite feeling. Tonks never treats Harry as the "Boy Who Lived", he's just Harry.
If you assume that Harry is going to be a little too busy in HBP and book 7 to develop a serious relationship, then we have to look to the epilogue and Harry's life after the defeat of Voldemort. I think it makes sense that Harry would indeed become an Auror, and after training and a few years "on the job" working closely with Tonks that the relationship would grow. After all Harry will have been through he will need someone with a good sense of humor and someone that doesn't take things too seriously.
Well that's all I've got, no solid canon evidence just gut feeling and a couple of disconnected clues.
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Solitaire - Jul 7, 2005 10:58 am (#958 of 1858)
Is my face red! We have all been so vigilant about trying to keep 'shipping posts out of every other thread that I thought maybe Star-Crossed just got a bit over-zealous! **embarrassed**
Mike, I think Tonks would be good for Harry. Come to think of it, I like younger men myself! Well, not as young as Harry, but ...
Solitaire
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Liz Mann - Jul 7, 2005 11:54 am (#959 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
JKR's comments about no one really getting Harry's 'ship correct let's out most of the characters that we know that are close to Harry's age.
When did she say that?
I still think Hermione likes Ron. On her FAQ, J.K. has the question "Does Hermione love Harry or Ron?", and she answered, "I can't believe some of you haven't figured this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I love." Which sounds to me like she has dropped a LOT of hints, perhaps quite obvious ones, as to who Hermione likes. And I think the evidence for R/H is a lot more obvious than H/H. And besides that, J.K. also said once that Harry and Hermione were just mutual friends, though I can't find the source now.
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mike miller - Jul 7, 2005 12:22 pm (#960 of 1858)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Liz - I'm sorry I can post a link to the original JKR interview transcript. I hope some of our Forum Friends can help us out here. The specific interpretation of the comments have been hashed and re-hashed so many times it's hard to find them, even with the search function.
Solitaire - Since there are so few passengers on the Harry/Tonks 'ship, you can have your choice of staterooms!
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I Am Used Vlad - Jul 7, 2005 12:43 pm (#961 of 1858)
I Am Almighty!
JEREMY PAXMAN: Unlikely pairings? Not Hermione and Draco Malfoy or anything like that?
JK ROWLING: I don't really want to say as it will ruin all the fan sites. They have such fun with their theories ... and it is fun, it is fun. And some of them even get quite close. No-one has ever - I have gone and looked at some of it and no-one's ever ... There is one thing that if anyone guessed I would be really annoyed as it is kind of the heart of it all. And it kind of explains everything and no-one's quite got there but a couple of people have skirted it. So you know, I would be pretty miffed after thirteen or fourteen years of writing the books if someone just came along and said I think this will happen in book seven. Because it is too late, I couldn't divert now, everything has been building up to it, and I've laid all my clues.
This is probably the quote mike means. It should be noted that JKR never says that Harry's 'ship hasn't been guessed, although many people take it that way.
mike, I didn't know you were offering staterooms. I may have to reconsider my ideas.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 7, 2005 1:13 pm (#962 of 1858)
If it is an unlikely romantic pairing, maybe Salazar Slytherin and Helga Hufflepuff were married. That would be 1000 years ago, right at the start of this mess. Imagine discriminating Salazar married to the woman who believed anybody at all with magical ability should be allowed into Hogwarts.
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Liz Mann - Jul 7, 2005 1:33 pm (#963 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I don't think she meant that Harry's ship hasn't been guessed. I think she strayed off on a tangent and started talking about theories in general being fun and some of them getting close.
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Steve Newton - Jul 7, 2005 2:06 pm (#964 of 1858)
Librarian
Yes, Liz, you are correct. This was discussed ad nauseum in the thread call, I think, Harry's Relationship Uniting the Houses.
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mike miller - Jul 7, 2005 5:23 pm (#965 of 1858)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Vlad - Thanks for the post. Since there are, at best, maybe 4 or 5 of us willing to say the Harry/Tonks 'ship actually makes some sense, it's not really very crowded aboard 'ship. I think there's one more stateroom on the Port side.
Liz - You're right in that JKR was less than direct in her answer, but when is she. The "no-one's quite got there but a couple of people have skirted it" part of the answer tells me Harry's 'ship is not any of the common pairings. The fact that Tonks accepts Harry for who he is, without pre-judging seems one of the points JKR is trying to make about how we treat each other as people.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 7, 2005 5:56 pm (#966 of 1858)
But Rowling doesn't even mention Harry in her answer. If she is talking about a 'ship, no reason to assume it is his.
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Denise P. - Jul 7, 2005 6:03 pm (#967 of 1858)
Ravenclaw Pony
If she is talking about a 'ship, no reason to assume it is his.
You mean, other than that the entire series is about Harry? I somehow doubt that something that JKR describes as it is kind of the heart of it all would not involve Harry. Since 'shipping was being discussed, I think it is reasonable to assume she was referring to a Harry 'ship.
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Steve Newton - Jul 7, 2005 6:07 pm (#968 of 1858)
Librarian
As I read that quotation it seems clear that the 'thing' is not a relationship.
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Mrs Brisbee - Jul 7, 2005 7:44 pm (#969 of 1858)
*hee hee** so many ways to interpret that quote. Anyway, if it is an unlikely 'ship, and Rowling has been laying all her clues about it for years, and it at the heart of the series, I'm having a hard time seeing how it must be a Harry/Whomever 'ship. Lily and James and their 'ship were important, as was that of the as-yet-named mother of Voldemort and her deadbeat husband Tom Riddle Sr. So it is possible that some other relationship besides one with Harry will be the thing that "kind of explains everything". If it is a 'ship that has been winding it's way through all of the books, then I would say it is very likely to not be one about Harry.
But of course, as others have pointed out, Rowling may not have been on about a 'ship, but off on a tangent.
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Herm-own-ninny Weezly - Jul 8, 2005 12:22 am (#970 of 1858)
Since there are, at best, maybe 4 or 5 of us willing to say the Harry/Tonks 'ship actually makes some sense, it's not really very crowded aboard 'ship. --mike miller
Though I do tend to lean towards a Harry/Ginny 'ship (and obviously a Ron/Hermione, based on my name ), I am definitely willing to agree that the Harry/Tonks 'ship would also make sense in the future. For my particular case, perhaps I could just have a guest room for a night or two?
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frogface - Jul 8, 2005 2:10 am (#971 of 1858)
I'm going to make a wild bet and say we've already seen Harry's ship. No, not Cho. Ron and Hermoine and Harry. I'm talking platonic shipping here. The love of three people that has so far carried them through 5 action packed years full of danger, and without each of the trio they wouldn't have made it so far. Without Ron they wouldn't have gotten beyond that chess board in book one, without Hermoine they would have never....well they wouldn't have lasted 2 mintues, and without Harry there wouldn't be a series at all. I think they are the heart of the series, and romance might come further into the main plot, but will essentially remain a popular sub-plot.
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Fawkes-The-Phoenix - Jul 8, 2005 5:16 am (#972 of 1858)
Nooooooo!!!!!!!Ron & Hermione CAN'T be together...DEATH TO RONALD!!!!!!!!!!
But who ever said that he will get married?????His relationship might not last after all, same goes with Ron/Hermione.
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mike miller - Jul 8, 2005 5:40 am (#973 of 1858)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Mrs. Brisbee - You make a very good point about "clues". A re-occurring theme (or clue) seems to be how different people and creatures are treated by the Wizarding community; and, it's this way that I connect a Harry/Tonks 'ship to the broader themes of the books.
How we treat each other seems to be a major issue for JKR. We've seen mistreatment, or prejudice or pre-judging as it relates to House Elves, Giants, Centaurs, Squibs, Muggle borns, Muggles, Werewolves, Merpeople and members of the other school houses. Have I missed anyone? We know that "Choices" is a key theme of the books. How we "Choose" to treat other people, especially when it's solely based on some kind of "label" placed on them, seems to me to fit quite nicely into this broader theme.
As I've said before, Tonks treats Harry as just Harry, not "The Boy Who Lived". Couple that with a good sense of humor and I think, in time, we have a good match for Harry's long-term happiness.
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Liz Mann - Jul 8, 2005 6:45 am (#974 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
We know that Harry has some romance in HBP. Arthur Levine (the Scholastic editor) and one of his collegues mentioned this, and they started humming "Love is in the air". Interesting choice of song, one that's talking about love. Granted most songs are about love, at least most recognisable songs, but they didn't have to hum a song at all. They'd already said that he has some romance, they didn't need the song. All this makes me think that whoever this romance is with, it might last, or become serious. Or that Levine and his collegue are shippers of this pairing and are very happy. Anyway, people have said that Harry/Tonks might happen when Harry is older, but if this pairing that's about to happen sticks, then I don't think it can be Harry/Tonks.
Personally I am a Harry/Ginny shipper. My reasons can be found here. However, if Harry does get together with someone in this book and then it doesn't work out (like with Cho) and he gets together with his ultimate partner in the seventh book (if he survives), then I would say perhaps Luna in this book.
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Solitaire - Jul 8, 2005 1:06 pm (#975 of 1858)
Didn't Jo say "a little romance"? That does not necessarily sound like the love of his life. Maybe it really is just a little romance ... period.
Solitaire
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Liz Mann - Jul 8, 2005 1:22 pm (#976 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Maybe it is. For now...
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Solitaire - Jul 8, 2005 4:54 pm (#977 of 1858)
One of the problems with Harry and Cho--as I saw it--is that he really didn't have enough time last year to give to building a real relationship with her. Their time was sort of "catch-as-catch-can." This coming year promises to be even more jam-packed, what with fighting the war and studying and prepping for N.E.W.T.s.
I may be wrong, but I just can't see Harry pursuing a serious relationship at this time. If a nice little romance happened to bloom right in his face, however--and the girl was available and open to it, as well (like Ginny, Luna, or Hermione)--hopefully he has learned something since Cho! Then again, Ron still seems to be clueless, so who knows ... ?
Solitaire
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Ginerva Potter - Jul 9, 2005 7:55 am (#978 of 1858)
Solitaire - I agree that Harry didn't have a lot of time to be with Cho last year. However, I think part of it had to do with a difference in houses. If they were in the same house, they would see each other more often and the opportunity for a ship is more likely. I'm on the Harry/Ginny ship. I think that since he fits in with the Weasleys it seems likely to me that he could fall for Ginny. They are in the same house at school, they will probably be playing quittich together, they have more chances to see each other than Harry did with Cho.
I think that the Cho relationship served its purpose. I think that if Harry's first relationship had been with Ginny, it wouldn't have worked out. He needed to grow up a little bit and he will act more grown up in this book.
I'm a Ron/Hermione shipper, too. I think Ron will finally get it in this book and their ship is going to sail!!!!
JM2K....
Ginny
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Star Crossed - Jul 9, 2005 9:47 am (#979 of 1858)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I was re-reading OP (I'm still in the first week of school and I only have a week left to read it!), more specifically Luna Lovegood and Neville/Ginny just jumped out at me. I never really liked it before, and I don't know if I really like it that much now, but I saw a lot of evidence there. I think Ginny would be great for Neville since she boosts his convidence:
"I'm nobody," said Neville hurriedly. "No you're not," said Ginny sharply. page 186, chapter 10 Luna Lovegood, Order of the Phoenix, American hardcover
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Liz Mann - Jul 9, 2005 10:57 am (#980 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Luna is an interesting person as far as ships go. She seems to show an interest in both Harry and Ron. She stares at them both a lot. But perhaps she shows more of an interest in Ron (her laughter at his joke about Goyle, her Gryffindor hat and coming to wish Ron good luck, her humming Weasley is Our King etc).
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Cuivienen - Jul 9, 2005 4:34 pm (#981 of 1858)
Actually, I've never really noticed Luna paying too much attention to Harry, just to Ron, who seems to hold most of her attention the whole time she is with the trio (and sometimes even when Ron isn't there such as when she hums "Weasley is Our King" under her breath). Of course, this says nothing about Ron reciprocating any of Luna's feelings.
I would, however, like to see Ron/Luna, Harry/Hermione, Neville/Ginny just to snub the beaten path.
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coolbeans3131 - Jul 9, 2005 8:58 pm (#982 of 1858)
I agree with you Cuivienen, Ron/Luna, Harry/Hermione, Neville/Ginny are my ships too. We seem to be in the minority, but we'll look real smart if we're right.
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S.E. Jones - Jul 9, 2005 11:59 pm (#983 of 1858)
Let it snow!
--You mean, other than that the entire series is about Harry? I somehow doubt that something that JKR describes as it is kind of the heart of it all would not involve Harry. Since 'shipping was being discussed, I think it is reasonable to assume she was referring to a Harry 'ship.-- Denise P.
I have to agree with everyone who said that she had strayed off of 'shipping and onto theories in general. To describe something as 'the heart of it all' doesn't sound like a 'ship to me, because 'shipping hasn't really been that important in the books thus far, and I don't foresee it becoming that important in the near future.
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haymoni - Jul 10, 2005 4:51 am (#984 of 1858)
I don't think the 'ship is the heart of it all either. But it could REFLECT the heart of it all. If the heart of it all is making the choice to do what is right (and that may not even be it!), the The Sorting Hat's song from Book 5 is still relevant.
When the kids return to school, we will see who stands with whom.
If the Houses have to work together to make Hogwarts safe, it would stand to reason that Harry's 'ship could come from another house.
Where is Prefect Marcus???
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Liz Mann - Jul 11, 2005 1:29 pm (#985 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Yeah, where is Prefect Marcus? I haven't seen him in ages.
I'm still a R/H, H/G shipper, but I think there could be brief spells of other pairings first, like with Harry and Cho.
The thing about Harry is that I think he needs a girl who will keep him on track, and help him with his problems (Cho just added to his problems, really). She also needs to be able to put her foot down with him when need be. And I think that girl has to be either Hermione or Ginny. Both have done those things before. Out of the two, I think Ginny would be better because even though she can be firm (and at times scary ), she still has a sense of fun, which Harry also needs. Hermione's a bit too sensible (except when she's standing up for something she passionately believes in).
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Ginerva Potter - Jul 12, 2005 6:52 am (#986 of 1858)
I agree, Liz. I'm a Ron/Hermoine, Harry/Ginny shipper, too. I think these pairings balance each other out a little better than a Harry/Hermione ship. I like Ginny. She is a strong personality, but not nagging like Hermione.
A Ron/Hermione ship balances, too. Ron is the joker, less likely to take things seriously. Hermione, the insufferable know-it-all , who takes everything seriously.
IMO, it just works.
Ginny
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Muggle Doctor - Jul 13, 2005 8:09 am (#987 of 1858)
Liz Mann said: The thing about Harry is that I think he needs a girl who will keep him on track, and help him with his problems (Cho just added to his problems, really). She also needs to be able to put her foot down with him when need be.
Liz, I would have to say that on the above data, I go for Luna. She is the only one we've seen so far who can touch Harry on his raw areas (e.g. Sirius) without it hurting him. The irony is that she is so far off his wavelength that he doesn't take anything she says to heart (in a negative way, anyway) and he doesn't get set off on one of the rages which characterised OOtP. The problem with Hermione and Ginny is that they're too close to him - Hermione is a living reminder that Harry should have done what she said, while Ginny's strong personality clashes with Harry's.
What is more, in all his raw, self-centred grief (whether justified or not) after Sirius's death, Luna is the only one, right at the end, who got him to feel something selfless. She is therefore also the only one who can put her foot down effectively - to make him stop and think before flying off the handle - until he regains his emotional equilibrium.
A line from E.E. Smith's Lensman novels comes to mind now: "I've got to really THINK, to think so it counts." He can feel as well, but Snape is right; some degree of emotional control is a must, or he's going to get more people killed (including, eventually, himself).
More than anything else, he needs someone who's shared his dangers; one thing is for sure, any of Hermione, Luna or Ginny qualify here.
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Solitaire - Jul 13, 2005 12:22 pm (#988 of 1858)
I don't think Luna was "putting her foot down." That phrase implies orders and ultimatums, and that is certainly not Luna. She also does not "make" Harry stop and think. Her words and manner cause him to think; this is different.
Luna is very much her own person, and she does not really seem to care much what others think of her. She marches to her own drummer. While I agree that she might be able to help Harry regain emotional equilibrium, it is for different reasons than you cite.
Luna takes things in stride and does not appear to get rattled by much. This calmness can help steady a hot head like Harry. Unfortunately, the same temperament that soothes can also tick off hot-headed people. Emotionally volatile people can become frustrated when others do not react as passionately as they do in certain situations. Behavior that is too calm and rational can anger them. We saw Harry get angry and frustrated with Dumbledore at the end of OotP, when Dumbledore ramained calm in the face of Harry's emotional tempest.
If Luna wants to 'ship with Harry, she is going to have to turn up her "enthusiasm burner." There needs to be a little "heat" there. If she stays too calm, he may feel she doesn't care. JM2K ...
Solitaire
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haymoni - Jul 13, 2005 4:46 pm (#989 of 1858)
I think Harry will stay away from anything serious, like going steady.
It has to be fairly clear to him that anyone that gets too close can be used by Voldy and put in grave danger.
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Liz Mann - Jul 13, 2005 5:36 pm (#990 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
That's true. But these things happen unintentionally.
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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 14, 2005 11:28 pm (#991 of 1858)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I don't think Harry will have much time for romance in HBP. He'll need time to learn how to deal with the terrible news of the predicition. He may, however, have a light go on on that emotion at the end.
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Liz Mann - Jul 15, 2005 3:38 am (#992 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Well, we know he will have some romance. We have it from three sources at least - J.K. herself: "He'll be busy, but what's life without a little romance?", The Bloomsbury website: behind Valentine's Day on their countdown calander, it has a picture of 'Harry 4 ... " carved into a tree, but the second name was blacked out along with all the space around the picture, and also Arthur Levine started humming, 'Love is in the Air' during an interview.
That's not to say this relationship will be serious... yet.
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Saralinda Again - Jul 15, 2005 7:48 am (#993 of 1858)
My Patronus is a Crumple-Horn Snorkack
Fifteen hours.
This is how I would like the 'ship to sail, at least for Book Six: Harry/Luna, Ron/Hermione, Neville/Ginny.
My personal prejudice is for a Harry/Luna 'ship forever, but I believe JKR would have introduced her earlier if she were to take a permanent place. My rationale for Luna is her behavior when they were all captured and in Umbridge's office. She alone of the six had the sense to stop fighting her captor and conserve her energy. I believe that Harry needs to learn how to pick his battles more effectively, too.
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Kip Carter - Jul 31, 2005 11:52 pm (#994 of 1858)
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
-- 'Ship-'Ship (Exploring Relationships)
madelinerock suggested this thread with the release of Book Six. It will eventually be moved to the existing, but closed, 'Ship-'Ship (Exploring Relationships) thread on the main page.
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Eponine - Jul 23, 2005 6:37 am (#995 of 1858)
Well, I have to say that I was completely pleased with the ships in HBP. I've been saying that H/G and R/Hr would happen for years. Lupin/Tonks was unexpected, but I liked it.
The Mugglenet/TLC interview has pretty much confirmed that R/Hr and H/G are the final pairings, and I'm happy about that.
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rassannassar - Jul 23, 2005 10:45 am (#996 of 1858)
It does seem kind of obvious that Harry and Ginny aren't done. Harry will realize that Dumbledore probably wouldn't have wanted for Harry to stop seeing Ginny if love truly is the greates power Harry has. And besides, Ginny won't give up and they will see each other at least one more time during Bill's and Fleur's wedding.
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TGF - Jul 23, 2005 11:17 am (#997 of 1858)
Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I think the core relationships are set in stone now... Harry/Ginny, Hermione/Ron. Not the ones I was gunning for, but I was satisfied by the way that H/G went and, though I thought that R/H was rather corny. In any case, the occasionally-vicious debates about the matter should now be pretty much at an end.
I don't think Ginny and Harry are done either, but I do believe that Harry isn't going to let her get close to him again throughout his quest to find the Horcruxes. I think Ginny's next important moment will be in the final battle.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 23, 2005 11:28 am (#998 of 1858)
I wonder whether Neville and Luna will find anyone or are they fated to be alone?
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haymoni - Jul 23, 2005 11:30 am (#999 of 1858)
I gathered from the funeral scene that they had found each other.
At least I hope so!
Hah - Gran's reaction to Luna!!!
Oh, that's better than Molly & Fleur!
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Paulus Maximus - Jul 23, 2005 11:40 am (#1000 of 1858)
I think that JKR denied that Neville and Luna would get together, although I don't have a quote to back it up.
I'm not sure that the Ron/Luna 'ship has sunk yet... Not only does Luna find Ron to be highly amusing, but also the other way around...
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Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 1001 to 1050)
Elanor Sun May 15, 2011 9:56 am
mooncalf - Jul 23, 2005 12:05 pm (#1001 of 1858)
Edited by Jul 23, 2005 12:10 pm
JKR sunk the Neville/Luna ship on her website, in the FAQ section.
Edit: Thanks, Tomoe.
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Tomoé - Jul 23, 2005 12:06 pm (#1002 of 1858)
Back in business
Here's your quote, Paulus Maximus:
Luna and Neville will hook up in HP&THBP
The Luna/Neville shippers are much less vehement and scary than the Harry/Hermione, Ron/Hermione tribes, so I hope I won’t receive too much hate mail for quashing this rumour. I see Neville and Luna as very different kinds of people and while they share a certain isolation within Hogwarts, I don’t think that’s enough to foster true love - friendship, perhaps, although I think that Neville would always find Luna’s wilder flights of fancy alarming. (jkrowling.com)
Even if the question was about book 6, it seems the answer was about the whole life of these characters.
Edit: It wasn't in the FAQ section, Mooncalf, but in the rumours one.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 23, 2005 12:07 pm (#1003 of 1858)
Paulus,
Here is the quote you mentioned
Luna and Neville will hook up in HP&THBP The Luna/Neville shippers are much less vehement and scary than the Harry/Hermione, Ron/Hermione tribes, so I hope I won’t receive too much hate mail for quashing this rumour. I see Neville and Luna as very different kinds of people and while they share a certain isolation within Hogwarts, I don’t think that’s enough to foster true love - friendship, perhaps, although I think that Neville would always find Luna’s wilder flights of fancy alarming.
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Weeny Owl - Jul 23, 2005 12:24 pm (#1004 of 1858)
I am just absolutely delighted with Tonks and Lupin!
I wondered about Lupin not really having anyone who could be as close to him as James and Sirius, and it seemed that perhaps JKR would kill him off and there would be no Marauders left. Wormtail doesn't count because of the betrayal.
I feel much more optimistic that Lupin will survive now. He has a reason to live. He has someone in his corner, and more importantly, he has someone who loves him no matter what. Tonks already knows about his physical problems each month, but she loves the man he is.
I think he can appreciate her quirkiness. He can see her as a desirable woman and not just someone who is amusing because she can change her appearance.
As with Bill and Fleur, I do hope Tonks and Remus live to a ripe old age and are very happy together. This was one of the happiest moments in the sixth book for me.
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Herm oh ninny - Jul 23, 2005 12:30 pm (#1005 of 1858)
"Accio treats!"
Weeny Owl, I completely agree! Up until HBP, I was positive that Remus would be killed off. He and Wormtail are the last connections to Harry's father. I was sure that they would both be killed along the way, Wormtail most likely will die repaying Harry for saving his life. But now with Tonks in the picture, Lupin does indeed have something to live for. And I'm sure that Jo would never taunt us with them only to have it taken away so soon.
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TGF - Jul 23, 2005 12:31 pm (#1006 of 1858)
Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I thought the Tonks and Lupin thing was totally random. When Tonks made her big revelation, my thought was: "Oh... you like Lupin... that's kinda... unexpected."
Does anyone know of any instances where this attraction is displayed or foreshadowed? Because I never noticed anything going on between those two before that one scene. Seriously, if Tonks had come out and said she loved Dawlish, I would've had the same reaction, because for me this just came out of nowhere.
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azi - Jul 23, 2005 12:33 pm (#1007 of 1858)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
I completely agree with Weeny Owl! As a person who does not usually 'ship at all, I was surprised at the amount of 'shipping done in book 6. However, I had quietly rooted for Tonks and Lupin since book 5, despite the huge age gap and Remus being a werewolf and all, and so the revelations about them definately made the book my favourite! In fact, I still get choked up when I read that particular page, as I have done many, many times now!
I was expecting Ron/Hermione, although it was obvious. I don't mind the cornyness. I would prefer them together than constantly being jealous of each other.
In the Mugglenet/LC interview with JKR, it was said someone once loved Snape? Any ideas who this could be?
Edit - I thought there was some flirting, for want of a better word, on Tonks' part in book 5 with Lupin, but it was more of a feeling I got that they would be well suited. There are also references in book 6 that I'm now picking up on my re-read which point to them.
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Kazius - Jul 23, 2005 12:36 pm (#1008 of 1858)
Skeptic
TGF - There are a couple of implications.
For one, Tonks is getting comfort from Molly when Harry first comes to the burrow, and she turns down the offer of meeting Mad-eye and Remus on the weekend. Later on, she is looking for Dumbledore because she has heard that Fenrir Greyback has attacked someone, another vague hint.
I believe there are one or two others, but it was overall unexpected, I felt. Still quite interesting, however.
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Herm oh ninny - Jul 23, 2005 12:38 pm (#1009 of 1858)
"Accio treats!"
Also, her patronus had changed into a werewolf, though at first I thought it was a dog for Sirius.
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Kazius - Jul 23, 2005 12:39 pm (#1010 of 1858)
Skeptic
I left that out, because Harry didn't make that connection until after he had learned about Tonks - Remus, but I suppose it is a hint none the less.
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Weeny Owl - Jul 23, 2005 1:00 pm (#1011 of 1858)
The "someone loving Snape" thing might not be romantic, but I do think it could be Lily.
JKR mentioned things in the PoA movie, and now I'm wondering if the people who thought that might foreshadow Lily loving Snape were right. She wouldn't have had to love him in a romantic way, but in a platonic, "accepting him as his is, flaws and all" way would still be love.
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Puck - Jul 23, 2005 1:31 pm (#1012 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Actually, I thought of Snape's mother. We see his father be abusive towards her, yet she could have been good to Severus. He was proud of the "Prince" side of his heritage. It seems likely she loved him and did her best to protect him from his father. It could also explain a hate for muggles, and a strong interest in dark magic- ways to get back at Daddy?
Funny it's more than Harry had, isn't it? He knew no love during his childhood, but realizing his parent's did love him was a great gift.
I'm thrilled with how the relationships turned out. I'm sure if both survive, Harry and Ginny will be together again. I worry that Ron and Hermione won't both survive. I feel the end is going to be bitter sweet for Harry.
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Roseviolet - Jul 23, 2005 1:32 pm (#1013 of 1858)
The Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione relationships were not very surprising, but I was absolutely thrilled at the Lupin/Tonks pairing like many of you. While it may seem to have come out of nowhere, we have to remember that because the books are presented from Harry's perspective, there's much going on that we don't get to see, particularly with respect to characters that aren't at Hogwarts. Considering that Harry was surprised by the Lupin/Tonks relationship and thought that Tonks was pining for Sirius, I think it was intended that the readers also be a bit surprised. Happily so.
What truly surprised me was how many pairings were presented. Besides the above three, we also saw Bill/Fleur, Draco/Pansy, Dean/Ginny and Won-Won/Lavender.
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greyeyesathene - Jul 23, 2005 1:54 pm (#1014 of 1858)
Yeah, there was a rather abnormal amount of shippage. But I think it all roots back to what Mrs. Weasley said about how wars make people do more rash things like falling in love...
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mooncalf - Jul 23, 2005 2:20 pm (#1015 of 1858)
I would think that it also has a lot to do with being sixteen.
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rassannassar - Jul 23, 2005 2:26 pm (#1016 of 1858)
Really, at least for Harry, if it had any thing to do with wars and people doing rash things, don't you think he would have been married by age 13.
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Hyperpearlgirl - Jul 23, 2005 3:54 pm (#1017 of 1858)
I was extremely happy/ elated when H and G kissed, i got up from my reading and skipped around the room, but I'm still cursing Harry for being an idiot and breaking up w/ her!!!!! grr.... (hurts Harry) and to quote a friend of mine, "Ginny's probably going to die anyways, he should date her while she's around."
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Liz Mann - Jul 23, 2005 5:34 pm (#1018 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Rassannassar - Probably not, since you have to be sixteen to get married in Britain, and that's with parental permission.
I don't think Ginny's going to die. Not sure why, though. I hope so much that Harry, Ron, Hermione and Ginny will all survive the book.
I also hope that the people who have said that the Lupin/Tonks relationship could be a sign that he'll survive are right.
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Betelgeuse Black - Jul 23, 2005 7:42 pm (#1019 of 1858)
Harry's got another thing coming if he thinks he can break it off with Ginny. She knows he likes her and she doesn't take this kind of rubbish (gee, I feel English) from anyone. She'll just keep hanging around and he'll cave (at least I think so).
Betelgeuse
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Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Jul 23, 2005 7:45 pm (#1020 of 1858)
No day but Today
I loved the shipping. The Draco/Pansy thing had already been established since book 3 or 4, so that was a duh. I have always been a fan of R/Hr and H/G and I had a hunch that Bill and Fleur would be together the minuite JKR told us she was working with him. The Tonks/Lupin thing surprised me also, but I adore Lupin and want to see him happy, so I liked it.
On the Snape/Lilly note, I think its likely that he liked her, but that she saw him as mearly a friend or less.
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rassannassar - Jul 23, 2005 8:06 pm (#1021 of 1858)
It was a joke Liz Mann, a joke. You can't even get married before 18 in America without parental consent.
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sere35 - Jul 23, 2005 8:34 pm (#1022 of 1858)
I saw this topic on another site so I thought I would see what everyone here thought.
What did you all think about the references to the students having sex or at least going past snogging
1. Hermoine coming over at the party looking all ruffled saying her date was not a gentlemen
2. Ginnys reference to a tattoo on Harrys chest even if she was kidding( which to me suggests they have in various states of undress together or thats what the other students think.)
3. Ron and Lavender sneaking off to a room by themselves Saying they looked like eels vertically wrestling
4. The password to the common room being abstinence
I cant think of any others now but there are more.
Do you think it was handled well? Did you find it appropriate? Do you want more or less detail or do think it was fine the way it was.
People I have discussed this with think it is weird for JK to mention other parts of growing up but to ignore the topic of sex. Others think it was fine for her to leave it up to the readers imagination.
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Circe - Jul 23, 2005 8:47 pm (#1023 of 1858)
I personally can't see Pansy and Draco together. It just seems weird.... because Draco comes from this background of dark glamour and wealth -- and none of the descriptions of Pansy frankly make her sound all that attractive. With the descriptions of Draco's mother, I imagine a trophy wife, and I would think that Draco would similarly want to situate himself with an uber cool dark slytherin. But then again, Draco did like to hang out with Crabbe and Goyle - he enjoys being looked up to and fawned upon by those he doesn't consider his equals.
(Actually that was one of the things I really enjoyed about this book... seeing Draco break away and have to start dealing with people on his own level and above. Draco doesn't do subservient as well as he does master)
ps - anyone else think its a coincidence that "pansy" is a flower -- just like "lily" and "fleur" are?
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Kazius - Jul 23, 2005 9:14 pm (#1024 of 1858)
Skeptic
Sere35, I've never seen it in that way, I'm not sure I've seen some of what you're referencing.
Currently, I'm allowing my friends a reread, next time I reread it (3rd time) I will check for that, it could be true, I dunno, I thought it was limited to snogging, but I could be wrong.
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sere35 - Jul 23, 2005 9:23 pm (#1025 of 1858)
Kazius I was like you the first time I read it I just thought ok teenager snogging. Then I went to this other message board and they had like 7 pages on the sexual references and things that I mentioned so I went back and reread it and I got what they were talking about. So I just wanted to see what everyone here thought.
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Kazius - Jul 23, 2005 9:38 pm (#1026 of 1858)
Skeptic
Of course it could just be teenagers trying to insert sexual references where there really aren't.
That being said, JKR did say this was not meant to be a children's series, so it wouldn't surprise me if there were a couple of hints dropped as sexual references.
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Ponine - Jul 24, 2005 4:03 am (#1027 of 1858)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
sere - In my opinion, the books are quite discrete, and manages to remind us all of what sixteen felt like, without being graphic. I particularly liked the images of Draco lying with his head in Pansy's lap while she plays with his hair, and Ginny reading a book while leaning on Harrys legs. I think that Harry's digression about Ginny popping up in his dreams in a way that he would not want Ron to know about also is a low-key reminder that these kids are indeed growing up. I for one do not really care what they do 'off camera', so to speak, but I most definitely think that the descriptions we do get of the various relationships merely adds to the characters.
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Ginerva Potter - Jul 24, 2005 6:53 am (#1028 of 1858)
I think that JKR is very good and discrete about throwing things like that in there. Depending on how old you are, you might or might not pick up on the references. I think that she is excellent at the age progression and giving us readers an accurate picture of what the characters are thinking and feeling at their age.
I was very happy with the ships. I have always been a R/Hr and H/G shipper and I was so excited to see it all unfold in this book. I was surprised though at all the shipping going on, but I wasn't unhappy with it. I just wasn't expecting so much shipping.
Ginny
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Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Jul 24, 2005 8:48 am (#1029 of 1858)
No day but Today
I didn't pick up on those references surprisingly, but I can see how they could be taken that way. It wouldn't surprise me at all actually, if they are sexual references. I know that when I was 16 those sort of things were discussed frequently between friends, and people experimented a lot. I would actually be dissapointed if there wasn't that sort of thing going on since they are supposed to be real teenagers. I do think that she wrote it well, and if the sex besomes more prominent in the next book, I'm confident that she will let us know in a very tactfull way.
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rassannassar - Jul 24, 2005 3:57 pm (#1030 of 1858)
First of all, Ginny is short for GINEVRA not GINERVA, i've already made that mistake.
And if JKR didn't originally intend the Harry Potter series to be for children, she shouldn't have written the first 3 or 4 books the way she did. I think she always meant for children to be able to read it, she probably didn't think they'd want to because the books are pretty long. Remember when Goblet came out? I think it'd be a lie if you said you weren't suprised by how long it is.
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Star Crossed - Jul 24, 2005 4:13 pm (#1031 of 1858)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Actually, rassannassar, she did not intend it to be a children's series. She has said repeatedly that she writes solely for herself. Most children books I read do not begin with a double murder. The young adult books I read now do not even begin like that. And she does not recommend them to children. She waited a very long time to read GoF to her oldest child and she told her about how it was fake and how she wanted to talk about anything that scared her in it.
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Ag Hart - Jul 24, 2005 4:13 pm (#1032 of 1858)
A really silly thought and question: We know that Tonks can change her appearance at will. When Lupin changes into a werewolf can she change like James, Sirius, and Peter did and keep him company? Will looking like an animal protect her similarly to being an animal? Changing into a female werewolf-look alike would be a real test of love.
Star Crossed, she does say she writes the books for herself, but I just caught her 2002 interview on A&E and it shows the cover letter that she sent with the manuscript when she was trying to get the first book published, and it says that the book is intended for children between the ages of 9-12. So at least that is how she first presented it to the publishers. I fully understand the confusion. I believe the interview is scheduled for Monday on another but related channel.
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fortuna major - Jul 24, 2005 4:17 pm (#1033 of 1858)
I was under the impression that her appearance changing abilities were relegated to the human realm, but it would be interesting to see if she was just a natural anamagus. I kinda doubt it though.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 24, 2005 4:32 pm (#1034 of 1858)
It would make his transformations even easier if she is in fact a natural animagus because, I doubt living with the other werwolves the majority of whom are under Greyback's sway Remus would have access to the Wolfsbane Potion.
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Ag Hart - Jul 24, 2005 4:42 pm (#1035 of 1858)
Nathan Zimmermann, refresh my memory, please. Is the Wolfsbane Potion the same as the one Snape makes for Lupin or a more advanced potion? If it is the same, according to Lupin, he still changes, but keeps his mind. In that case, he might still enjoy a little company.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 24, 2005 4:44 pm (#1036 of 1858)
Ag Hart, yes it is the potion that allows Remus to keep his mind during lycanthropic episodes
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Puck - Jul 24, 2005 8:17 pm (#1037 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I thought that OotP was out of the local library for a while, since it was never on the shelf. (My neighbor had my copy, and I wanted to re-read before the HBP). Anyway, the reason I couldn't find it was because though the first 4 where in the children's room, OotP was placed in the teen section. As Harry gets more mature, I guess the audience is expected to, also. Still, it's written in a such a way that none of it is so obvious that a younger read would pick up in it. I found it more interesting that refer more and more to drinking. (Americans are used to the idea of teens being handed mead or candy load with firewhiskey.) Oh, and I think the "abstinence" password had more to do with the fat lady's feeling a bit hungover.
I love all the subtle references as Harry falls for Ginny. We see her long red hair swaying, watch Harry smile and laugh whenever she's around, feel the occasional odd twinge. Funny, he doesn't figure it out for himself even after smelling her perfume when exposed to love potion.
I was thinking, can you see Snape (or Voldy) if slipped a love potion? Slughorn said how destruction they can be. If you only have a small fraction of your soul, can you handle all that emotion?
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Ag Hart - Jul 24, 2005 9:01 pm (#1038 of 1858)
Thanks, Nathan.
Does anyone know why Draco's mother would have felt so bold as to ask and expect Snape to act on behalf of her son? Has there been any speculation about "Cissy" and Snape's relationship?
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Susurro Notities - Jul 24, 2005 9:09 pm (#1039 of 1858)
Puck,
I assume you meant to say that "Americans are" NOT "used to the idea of teens being handed mead or candy loaded with firewhiskey." Other than the occasional rum ball at Christmas or a sip of wine on a special occasion American children are not offered alcohol. They do - of course - obtain it illegally in their teens - unfortunately
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KWeldon - Jul 24, 2005 9:14 pm (#1040 of 1858)
I just have to give my two knuts here and hopefully lose this melancholy feeling that I get about the ships from this book. Please forgive me for going against the grain, and go easy on the dungbombs. Let me stress that these are only my feelings and I understand "different strokes for different folks."
I was fine with R/H; that seemed to be a no-brainer, although I was irritated with Ron's immaturity about it.
Tonks/Lupin didn't really surprise me. They seemed to be together all of the time in OotP, and I would think any rational woman would fall for Remus once she found out what a great guy he is. I just have a problem with it being Tonks. I can't identify with her, I guess is the real reason. Okay, sure, maybe she can lighten up Remus' mood, but then what? Frankly, I don't think she brings as much to the table, so to speak, as Remus does for her. I guess I should feel glad that my favorite secondary character is presumably going to find greater joy in his life, but I just don't.
Harry/Ginny. First off, I am not a H/H shipper at all and never have been. I just don't see what's so great about Ginny. The whole "I-waited-for-you-but-you-never-came-so-I-hooked-up-with-others" thing didn't sit well with me, particularly when she had been caught by Harry and Ron kissing Dean "fiercely."
Is there no other female that can give Harry the kind of support that he needs? Is there no other attractive witch? Is there no other powerful witch, possibly one who knows more than a Bat-Bogey hex? I am not even proposing another character in the books, since there is a limited amount of information that we have on females besides Ginny and Hermione. Ginny just doesn't inspire me for Harry.
The whole "One Big Weasley Family" just seems a little glib.
Again, just my opinion and my apologies if I offend anyone; I certainly don't mean to. No big deal, I'm just trying to accept that it's going to be H/G from now on by actually putting my feelings into writing.
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Mrs. D. - Jul 24, 2005 9:26 pm (#1041 of 1858)
KWeldon: If you go back aways you will see that you are not alone as I was very let down about this too. And although I did like H/H, I understand what you are saying about just getting it out and writing it all down. I even admitted to a fierce fight with Hermione in a dream over the whole situation! LOL!
Seriously though, I felt much better after as I had obviously then let go of some of the negative feelings that were so bottled up. I didn't even realise how much I even cared until the book was finished. I hope expressing yourself brings peace and helps with the adjustment.
edit: I really like Lupin/Tonks! He is so in need of love and she is one smart cookie to be such a young auror. I really think once Fenir dies, Lupin will be cured and live Happily ever after. At least I hope so!
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Susurro Notities - Jul 24, 2005 9:32 pm (#1042 of 1858)
Although I am not a shipper I really like the Tonks/Lupin relationship. I am, as are many others, very fond of Lupin. I am so pleased that he is with Tonks - she offers him fun, lightheartedness, and a youthfulness that he has never known. How wonderful!
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Elanor - Jul 24, 2005 10:16 pm (#1043 of 1858)
I am not a shipper at all either, and I think I never posted on a ship thread before, but I do agree with you Susurro!
Something suddenly hit me lately about Tonks. She is an auror, which means she must have achieved an "Outstanding" at her Potions OWL, and certainly a very good mark at her Potions NEWT as well. She may be able to become a Wolfsbane Potion expert in no time! Isn't it great?
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Susurro Notities - Jul 24, 2005 10:19 pm (#1044 of 1858)
Edited by Jul 24, 2005 10:19 pm
Elanor
I hadn't thought of the Wolfsbane potion angle - excellent. Seems they were meant to be.
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Miss Malaprop - Jul 25, 2005 5:12 am (#1045 of 1858)
Edited by Jul 25, 2005 5:12 am
Shippers can be scary, so I will just dip my toe in before fleeing...
Deep down, secretly, I've always been an R/H and H/G shipper, but what I found unsettling was the suddenness of H/G. I much preferred the slow development of R/H.
I've just read Lexicon Steve's comments about shippers in the "What's New" section of the Lexicon, and it upsets me that people could be so nasty and vehement. I guess I don't see teenage relationships as the most important theme of the series.
~Runs back to the safety of ship-free threads~
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Puck - Jul 25, 2005 10:27 am (#1046 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Understand that Ginny is only 15 in this book, she was 13 when she meant Michael Corner. You can only pine away for someone who is not showing any interest for so long. I wouldn't hold it against her that she didn't wait idly by for Harry.
I don't find the relationship that sudden. She has always carried a torch for him, and he realized his feelings for her as they developed over the course of 9 or 10 months. Not everyone is like Ron and takes years to realize/admit their true feelings.
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Weeny Owl - Jul 25, 2005 10:42 am (#1047 of 1858)
I didn't find Harry and Ginny's relationship sudden either.
They've always liked each other. Harry has always been fond of her even as a friend, and her feelings, while perhaps suppressed a bit in OotP, were still of fondness as well.
Harry spent most of his summer with the Weasleys, and it was a more relaxed atmosphere in a lot of ways than usual.
Harry started out noticing her scent. He then became unhappy seeing her kiss Dean. It progressed from there, and while it might seem sudden if Harry were declaring feelings for a total stranger, there was always a strong base present with Ginny.
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haymoni - Jul 25, 2005 10:52 am (#1048 of 1858)
Harry smelled flowers - what did Hermione smell? She certainly stopped herself, but what does Ron - if it was indeed Ron - smell like?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 25, 2005 11:40 am (#1049 of 1858)
I do not see the development of the ship between Harry and Ginny as being all that sudden. Although, I am bit surprised that it took Harry nearly three years to realize that his relationship with Cho was very superficial in nature and to seek out another relationship. I tend to believe that deep within in himself the genesis of his feelings towards Ginny began with her rescue from the Chamber but, that he suppressed those feelings out of respect for not only Ron but, Mr. and Mrs. Weasley as well. I tend to think that Ginny was actually quite hurt by his relationship with Cho in addition to being in all likelihood envious of Cho. I would argue that when Harry saw Ginny kissing Dean he finally began to acknowledge his feelings for Ginny. Although, I think he will try to deny them or refuse to accept them until after Voldemort is defeated because, I think he believes that is the only way he can keep Ginny out of danger and protect her.
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CeilingofStars - Jul 25, 2005 12:15 pm (#1050 of 1858)
My problem is not so much because of the suddenness of the H/G ship, because I don't really think that it was that sudden, but I kind of feel disappointed by it because I don't really see that Ginny has any wonderful traits. Maybe this is movie contamination because I'm not thrilled by the girl who plays Ginny in the movies, but I don't remember ever liking Ginny very much. Maybe I should re-read the books. Can anybody point out any particular quotes/events that may make Ginny more well-developed and adult? 'Cause I kind of still see her as a little kid!
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Edited by Jul 23, 2005 12:10 pm
JKR sunk the Neville/Luna ship on her website, in the FAQ section.
Edit: Thanks, Tomoe.
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Tomoé - Jul 23, 2005 12:06 pm (#1002 of 1858)
Back in business
Here's your quote, Paulus Maximus:
Luna and Neville will hook up in HP&THBP
The Luna/Neville shippers are much less vehement and scary than the Harry/Hermione, Ron/Hermione tribes, so I hope I won’t receive too much hate mail for quashing this rumour. I see Neville and Luna as very different kinds of people and while they share a certain isolation within Hogwarts, I don’t think that’s enough to foster true love - friendship, perhaps, although I think that Neville would always find Luna’s wilder flights of fancy alarming. (jkrowling.com)
Even if the question was about book 6, it seems the answer was about the whole life of these characters.
Edit: It wasn't in the FAQ section, Mooncalf, but in the rumours one.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 23, 2005 12:07 pm (#1003 of 1858)
Paulus,
Here is the quote you mentioned
Luna and Neville will hook up in HP&THBP The Luna/Neville shippers are much less vehement and scary than the Harry/Hermione, Ron/Hermione tribes, so I hope I won’t receive too much hate mail for quashing this rumour. I see Neville and Luna as very different kinds of people and while they share a certain isolation within Hogwarts, I don’t think that’s enough to foster true love - friendship, perhaps, although I think that Neville would always find Luna’s wilder flights of fancy alarming.
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Weeny Owl - Jul 23, 2005 12:24 pm (#1004 of 1858)
I am just absolutely delighted with Tonks and Lupin!
I wondered about Lupin not really having anyone who could be as close to him as James and Sirius, and it seemed that perhaps JKR would kill him off and there would be no Marauders left. Wormtail doesn't count because of the betrayal.
I feel much more optimistic that Lupin will survive now. He has a reason to live. He has someone in his corner, and more importantly, he has someone who loves him no matter what. Tonks already knows about his physical problems each month, but she loves the man he is.
I think he can appreciate her quirkiness. He can see her as a desirable woman and not just someone who is amusing because she can change her appearance.
As with Bill and Fleur, I do hope Tonks and Remus live to a ripe old age and are very happy together. This was one of the happiest moments in the sixth book for me.
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Herm oh ninny - Jul 23, 2005 12:30 pm (#1005 of 1858)
"Accio treats!"
Weeny Owl, I completely agree! Up until HBP, I was positive that Remus would be killed off. He and Wormtail are the last connections to Harry's father. I was sure that they would both be killed along the way, Wormtail most likely will die repaying Harry for saving his life. But now with Tonks in the picture, Lupin does indeed have something to live for. And I'm sure that Jo would never taunt us with them only to have it taken away so soon.
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TGF - Jul 23, 2005 12:31 pm (#1006 of 1858)
Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I thought the Tonks and Lupin thing was totally random. When Tonks made her big revelation, my thought was: "Oh... you like Lupin... that's kinda... unexpected."
Does anyone know of any instances where this attraction is displayed or foreshadowed? Because I never noticed anything going on between those two before that one scene. Seriously, if Tonks had come out and said she loved Dawlish, I would've had the same reaction, because for me this just came out of nowhere.
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azi - Jul 23, 2005 12:33 pm (#1007 of 1858)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
I completely agree with Weeny Owl! As a person who does not usually 'ship at all, I was surprised at the amount of 'shipping done in book 6. However, I had quietly rooted for Tonks and Lupin since book 5, despite the huge age gap and Remus being a werewolf and all, and so the revelations about them definately made the book my favourite! In fact, I still get choked up when I read that particular page, as I have done many, many times now!
I was expecting Ron/Hermione, although it was obvious. I don't mind the cornyness. I would prefer them together than constantly being jealous of each other.
In the Mugglenet/LC interview with JKR, it was said someone once loved Snape? Any ideas who this could be?
Edit - I thought there was some flirting, for want of a better word, on Tonks' part in book 5 with Lupin, but it was more of a feeling I got that they would be well suited. There are also references in book 6 that I'm now picking up on my re-read which point to them.
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Kazius - Jul 23, 2005 12:36 pm (#1008 of 1858)
Skeptic
TGF - There are a couple of implications.
For one, Tonks is getting comfort from Molly when Harry first comes to the burrow, and she turns down the offer of meeting Mad-eye and Remus on the weekend. Later on, she is looking for Dumbledore because she has heard that Fenrir Greyback has attacked someone, another vague hint.
I believe there are one or two others, but it was overall unexpected, I felt. Still quite interesting, however.
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Herm oh ninny - Jul 23, 2005 12:38 pm (#1009 of 1858)
"Accio treats!"
Also, her patronus had changed into a werewolf, though at first I thought it was a dog for Sirius.
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Kazius - Jul 23, 2005 12:39 pm (#1010 of 1858)
Skeptic
I left that out, because Harry didn't make that connection until after he had learned about Tonks - Remus, but I suppose it is a hint none the less.
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Weeny Owl - Jul 23, 2005 1:00 pm (#1011 of 1858)
The "someone loving Snape" thing might not be romantic, but I do think it could be Lily.
JKR mentioned things in the PoA movie, and now I'm wondering if the people who thought that might foreshadow Lily loving Snape were right. She wouldn't have had to love him in a romantic way, but in a platonic, "accepting him as his is, flaws and all" way would still be love.
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Puck - Jul 23, 2005 1:31 pm (#1012 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Actually, I thought of Snape's mother. We see his father be abusive towards her, yet she could have been good to Severus. He was proud of the "Prince" side of his heritage. It seems likely she loved him and did her best to protect him from his father. It could also explain a hate for muggles, and a strong interest in dark magic- ways to get back at Daddy?
Funny it's more than Harry had, isn't it? He knew no love during his childhood, but realizing his parent's did love him was a great gift.
I'm thrilled with how the relationships turned out. I'm sure if both survive, Harry and Ginny will be together again. I worry that Ron and Hermione won't both survive. I feel the end is going to be bitter sweet for Harry.
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Roseviolet - Jul 23, 2005 1:32 pm (#1013 of 1858)
The Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione relationships were not very surprising, but I was absolutely thrilled at the Lupin/Tonks pairing like many of you. While it may seem to have come out of nowhere, we have to remember that because the books are presented from Harry's perspective, there's much going on that we don't get to see, particularly with respect to characters that aren't at Hogwarts. Considering that Harry was surprised by the Lupin/Tonks relationship and thought that Tonks was pining for Sirius, I think it was intended that the readers also be a bit surprised. Happily so.
What truly surprised me was how many pairings were presented. Besides the above three, we also saw Bill/Fleur, Draco/Pansy, Dean/Ginny and Won-Won/Lavender.
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greyeyesathene - Jul 23, 2005 1:54 pm (#1014 of 1858)
Yeah, there was a rather abnormal amount of shippage. But I think it all roots back to what Mrs. Weasley said about how wars make people do more rash things like falling in love...
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mooncalf - Jul 23, 2005 2:20 pm (#1015 of 1858)
I would think that it also has a lot to do with being sixteen.
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rassannassar - Jul 23, 2005 2:26 pm (#1016 of 1858)
Really, at least for Harry, if it had any thing to do with wars and people doing rash things, don't you think he would have been married by age 13.
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Hyperpearlgirl - Jul 23, 2005 3:54 pm (#1017 of 1858)
I was extremely happy/ elated when H and G kissed, i got up from my reading and skipped around the room, but I'm still cursing Harry for being an idiot and breaking up w/ her!!!!! grr.... (hurts Harry) and to quote a friend of mine, "Ginny's probably going to die anyways, he should date her while she's around."
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Liz Mann - Jul 23, 2005 5:34 pm (#1018 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Rassannassar - Probably not, since you have to be sixteen to get married in Britain, and that's with parental permission.
I don't think Ginny's going to die. Not sure why, though. I hope so much that Harry, Ron, Hermione and Ginny will all survive the book.
I also hope that the people who have said that the Lupin/Tonks relationship could be a sign that he'll survive are right.
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Betelgeuse Black - Jul 23, 2005 7:42 pm (#1019 of 1858)
Harry's got another thing coming if he thinks he can break it off with Ginny. She knows he likes her and she doesn't take this kind of rubbish (gee, I feel English) from anyone. She'll just keep hanging around and he'll cave (at least I think so).
Betelgeuse
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Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Jul 23, 2005 7:45 pm (#1020 of 1858)
No day but Today
I loved the shipping. The Draco/Pansy thing had already been established since book 3 or 4, so that was a duh. I have always been a fan of R/Hr and H/G and I had a hunch that Bill and Fleur would be together the minuite JKR told us she was working with him. The Tonks/Lupin thing surprised me also, but I adore Lupin and want to see him happy, so I liked it.
On the Snape/Lilly note, I think its likely that he liked her, but that she saw him as mearly a friend or less.
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rassannassar - Jul 23, 2005 8:06 pm (#1021 of 1858)
It was a joke Liz Mann, a joke. You can't even get married before 18 in America without parental consent.
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sere35 - Jul 23, 2005 8:34 pm (#1022 of 1858)
I saw this topic on another site so I thought I would see what everyone here thought.
What did you all think about the references to the students having sex or at least going past snogging
1. Hermoine coming over at the party looking all ruffled saying her date was not a gentlemen
2. Ginnys reference to a tattoo on Harrys chest even if she was kidding( which to me suggests they have in various states of undress together or thats what the other students think.)
3. Ron and Lavender sneaking off to a room by themselves Saying they looked like eels vertically wrestling
4. The password to the common room being abstinence
I cant think of any others now but there are more.
Do you think it was handled well? Did you find it appropriate? Do you want more or less detail or do think it was fine the way it was.
People I have discussed this with think it is weird for JK to mention other parts of growing up but to ignore the topic of sex. Others think it was fine for her to leave it up to the readers imagination.
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Circe - Jul 23, 2005 8:47 pm (#1023 of 1858)
I personally can't see Pansy and Draco together. It just seems weird.... because Draco comes from this background of dark glamour and wealth -- and none of the descriptions of Pansy frankly make her sound all that attractive. With the descriptions of Draco's mother, I imagine a trophy wife, and I would think that Draco would similarly want to situate himself with an uber cool dark slytherin. But then again, Draco did like to hang out with Crabbe and Goyle - he enjoys being looked up to and fawned upon by those he doesn't consider his equals.
(Actually that was one of the things I really enjoyed about this book... seeing Draco break away and have to start dealing with people on his own level and above. Draco doesn't do subservient as well as he does master)
ps - anyone else think its a coincidence that "pansy" is a flower -- just like "lily" and "fleur" are?
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Kazius - Jul 23, 2005 9:14 pm (#1024 of 1858)
Skeptic
Sere35, I've never seen it in that way, I'm not sure I've seen some of what you're referencing.
Currently, I'm allowing my friends a reread, next time I reread it (3rd time) I will check for that, it could be true, I dunno, I thought it was limited to snogging, but I could be wrong.
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sere35 - Jul 23, 2005 9:23 pm (#1025 of 1858)
Kazius I was like you the first time I read it I just thought ok teenager snogging. Then I went to this other message board and they had like 7 pages on the sexual references and things that I mentioned so I went back and reread it and I got what they were talking about. So I just wanted to see what everyone here thought.
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Kazius - Jul 23, 2005 9:38 pm (#1026 of 1858)
Skeptic
Of course it could just be teenagers trying to insert sexual references where there really aren't.
That being said, JKR did say this was not meant to be a children's series, so it wouldn't surprise me if there were a couple of hints dropped as sexual references.
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Ponine - Jul 24, 2005 4:03 am (#1027 of 1858)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
sere - In my opinion, the books are quite discrete, and manages to remind us all of what sixteen felt like, without being graphic. I particularly liked the images of Draco lying with his head in Pansy's lap while she plays with his hair, and Ginny reading a book while leaning on Harrys legs. I think that Harry's digression about Ginny popping up in his dreams in a way that he would not want Ron to know about also is a low-key reminder that these kids are indeed growing up. I for one do not really care what they do 'off camera', so to speak, but I most definitely think that the descriptions we do get of the various relationships merely adds to the characters.
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Ginerva Potter - Jul 24, 2005 6:53 am (#1028 of 1858)
I think that JKR is very good and discrete about throwing things like that in there. Depending on how old you are, you might or might not pick up on the references. I think that she is excellent at the age progression and giving us readers an accurate picture of what the characters are thinking and feeling at their age.
I was very happy with the ships. I have always been a R/Hr and H/G shipper and I was so excited to see it all unfold in this book. I was surprised though at all the shipping going on, but I wasn't unhappy with it. I just wasn't expecting so much shipping.
Ginny
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Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Jul 24, 2005 8:48 am (#1029 of 1858)
No day but Today
I didn't pick up on those references surprisingly, but I can see how they could be taken that way. It wouldn't surprise me at all actually, if they are sexual references. I know that when I was 16 those sort of things were discussed frequently between friends, and people experimented a lot. I would actually be dissapointed if there wasn't that sort of thing going on since they are supposed to be real teenagers. I do think that she wrote it well, and if the sex besomes more prominent in the next book, I'm confident that she will let us know in a very tactfull way.
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rassannassar - Jul 24, 2005 3:57 pm (#1030 of 1858)
First of all, Ginny is short for GINEVRA not GINERVA, i've already made that mistake.
And if JKR didn't originally intend the Harry Potter series to be for children, she shouldn't have written the first 3 or 4 books the way she did. I think she always meant for children to be able to read it, she probably didn't think they'd want to because the books are pretty long. Remember when Goblet came out? I think it'd be a lie if you said you weren't suprised by how long it is.
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Star Crossed - Jul 24, 2005 4:13 pm (#1031 of 1858)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Actually, rassannassar, she did not intend it to be a children's series. She has said repeatedly that she writes solely for herself. Most children books I read do not begin with a double murder. The young adult books I read now do not even begin like that. And she does not recommend them to children. She waited a very long time to read GoF to her oldest child and she told her about how it was fake and how she wanted to talk about anything that scared her in it.
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Ag Hart - Jul 24, 2005 4:13 pm (#1032 of 1858)
A really silly thought and question: We know that Tonks can change her appearance at will. When Lupin changes into a werewolf can she change like James, Sirius, and Peter did and keep him company? Will looking like an animal protect her similarly to being an animal? Changing into a female werewolf-look alike would be a real test of love.
Star Crossed, she does say she writes the books for herself, but I just caught her 2002 interview on A&E and it shows the cover letter that she sent with the manuscript when she was trying to get the first book published, and it says that the book is intended for children between the ages of 9-12. So at least that is how she first presented it to the publishers. I fully understand the confusion. I believe the interview is scheduled for Monday on another but related channel.
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fortuna major - Jul 24, 2005 4:17 pm (#1033 of 1858)
I was under the impression that her appearance changing abilities were relegated to the human realm, but it would be interesting to see if she was just a natural anamagus. I kinda doubt it though.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 24, 2005 4:32 pm (#1034 of 1858)
It would make his transformations even easier if she is in fact a natural animagus because, I doubt living with the other werwolves the majority of whom are under Greyback's sway Remus would have access to the Wolfsbane Potion.
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Ag Hart - Jul 24, 2005 4:42 pm (#1035 of 1858)
Nathan Zimmermann, refresh my memory, please. Is the Wolfsbane Potion the same as the one Snape makes for Lupin or a more advanced potion? If it is the same, according to Lupin, he still changes, but keeps his mind. In that case, he might still enjoy a little company.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 24, 2005 4:44 pm (#1036 of 1858)
Ag Hart, yes it is the potion that allows Remus to keep his mind during lycanthropic episodes
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Puck - Jul 24, 2005 8:17 pm (#1037 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I thought that OotP was out of the local library for a while, since it was never on the shelf. (My neighbor had my copy, and I wanted to re-read before the HBP). Anyway, the reason I couldn't find it was because though the first 4 where in the children's room, OotP was placed in the teen section. As Harry gets more mature, I guess the audience is expected to, also. Still, it's written in a such a way that none of it is so obvious that a younger read would pick up in it. I found it more interesting that refer more and more to drinking. (Americans are used to the idea of teens being handed mead or candy load with firewhiskey.) Oh, and I think the "abstinence" password had more to do with the fat lady's feeling a bit hungover.
I love all the subtle references as Harry falls for Ginny. We see her long red hair swaying, watch Harry smile and laugh whenever she's around, feel the occasional odd twinge. Funny, he doesn't figure it out for himself even after smelling her perfume when exposed to love potion.
I was thinking, can you see Snape (or Voldy) if slipped a love potion? Slughorn said how destruction they can be. If you only have a small fraction of your soul, can you handle all that emotion?
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Ag Hart - Jul 24, 2005 9:01 pm (#1038 of 1858)
Thanks, Nathan.
Does anyone know why Draco's mother would have felt so bold as to ask and expect Snape to act on behalf of her son? Has there been any speculation about "Cissy" and Snape's relationship?
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Susurro Notities - Jul 24, 2005 9:09 pm (#1039 of 1858)
Puck,
I assume you meant to say that "Americans are" NOT "used to the idea of teens being handed mead or candy loaded with firewhiskey." Other than the occasional rum ball at Christmas or a sip of wine on a special occasion American children are not offered alcohol. They do - of course - obtain it illegally in their teens - unfortunately
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KWeldon - Jul 24, 2005 9:14 pm (#1040 of 1858)
I just have to give my two knuts here and hopefully lose this melancholy feeling that I get about the ships from this book. Please forgive me for going against the grain, and go easy on the dungbombs. Let me stress that these are only my feelings and I understand "different strokes for different folks."
I was fine with R/H; that seemed to be a no-brainer, although I was irritated with Ron's immaturity about it.
Tonks/Lupin didn't really surprise me. They seemed to be together all of the time in OotP, and I would think any rational woman would fall for Remus once she found out what a great guy he is. I just have a problem with it being Tonks. I can't identify with her, I guess is the real reason. Okay, sure, maybe she can lighten up Remus' mood, but then what? Frankly, I don't think she brings as much to the table, so to speak, as Remus does for her. I guess I should feel glad that my favorite secondary character is presumably going to find greater joy in his life, but I just don't.
Harry/Ginny. First off, I am not a H/H shipper at all and never have been. I just don't see what's so great about Ginny. The whole "I-waited-for-you-but-you-never-came-so-I-hooked-up-with-others" thing didn't sit well with me, particularly when she had been caught by Harry and Ron kissing Dean "fiercely."
Is there no other female that can give Harry the kind of support that he needs? Is there no other attractive witch? Is there no other powerful witch, possibly one who knows more than a Bat-Bogey hex? I am not even proposing another character in the books, since there is a limited amount of information that we have on females besides Ginny and Hermione. Ginny just doesn't inspire me for Harry.
The whole "One Big Weasley Family" just seems a little glib.
Again, just my opinion and my apologies if I offend anyone; I certainly don't mean to. No big deal, I'm just trying to accept that it's going to be H/G from now on by actually putting my feelings into writing.
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Mrs. D. - Jul 24, 2005 9:26 pm (#1041 of 1858)
KWeldon: If you go back aways you will see that you are not alone as I was very let down about this too. And although I did like H/H, I understand what you are saying about just getting it out and writing it all down. I even admitted to a fierce fight with Hermione in a dream over the whole situation! LOL!
Seriously though, I felt much better after as I had obviously then let go of some of the negative feelings that were so bottled up. I didn't even realise how much I even cared until the book was finished. I hope expressing yourself brings peace and helps with the adjustment.
edit: I really like Lupin/Tonks! He is so in need of love and she is one smart cookie to be such a young auror. I really think once Fenir dies, Lupin will be cured and live Happily ever after. At least I hope so!
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Susurro Notities - Jul 24, 2005 9:32 pm (#1042 of 1858)
Although I am not a shipper I really like the Tonks/Lupin relationship. I am, as are many others, very fond of Lupin. I am so pleased that he is with Tonks - she offers him fun, lightheartedness, and a youthfulness that he has never known. How wonderful!
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Elanor - Jul 24, 2005 10:16 pm (#1043 of 1858)
I am not a shipper at all either, and I think I never posted on a ship thread before, but I do agree with you Susurro!
Something suddenly hit me lately about Tonks. She is an auror, which means she must have achieved an "Outstanding" at her Potions OWL, and certainly a very good mark at her Potions NEWT as well. She may be able to become a Wolfsbane Potion expert in no time! Isn't it great?
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Susurro Notities - Jul 24, 2005 10:19 pm (#1044 of 1858)
Edited by Jul 24, 2005 10:19 pm
Elanor
I hadn't thought of the Wolfsbane potion angle - excellent. Seems they were meant to be.
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Miss Malaprop - Jul 25, 2005 5:12 am (#1045 of 1858)
Edited by Jul 25, 2005 5:12 am
Shippers can be scary, so I will just dip my toe in before fleeing...
Deep down, secretly, I've always been an R/H and H/G shipper, but what I found unsettling was the suddenness of H/G. I much preferred the slow development of R/H.
I've just read Lexicon Steve's comments about shippers in the "What's New" section of the Lexicon, and it upsets me that people could be so nasty and vehement. I guess I don't see teenage relationships as the most important theme of the series.
~Runs back to the safety of ship-free threads~
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Puck - Jul 25, 2005 10:27 am (#1046 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Understand that Ginny is only 15 in this book, she was 13 when she meant Michael Corner. You can only pine away for someone who is not showing any interest for so long. I wouldn't hold it against her that she didn't wait idly by for Harry.
I don't find the relationship that sudden. She has always carried a torch for him, and he realized his feelings for her as they developed over the course of 9 or 10 months. Not everyone is like Ron and takes years to realize/admit their true feelings.
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Weeny Owl - Jul 25, 2005 10:42 am (#1047 of 1858)
I didn't find Harry and Ginny's relationship sudden either.
They've always liked each other. Harry has always been fond of her even as a friend, and her feelings, while perhaps suppressed a bit in OotP, were still of fondness as well.
Harry spent most of his summer with the Weasleys, and it was a more relaxed atmosphere in a lot of ways than usual.
Harry started out noticing her scent. He then became unhappy seeing her kiss Dean. It progressed from there, and while it might seem sudden if Harry were declaring feelings for a total stranger, there was always a strong base present with Ginny.
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haymoni - Jul 25, 2005 10:52 am (#1048 of 1858)
Harry smelled flowers - what did Hermione smell? She certainly stopped herself, but what does Ron - if it was indeed Ron - smell like?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 25, 2005 11:40 am (#1049 of 1858)
I do not see the development of the ship between Harry and Ginny as being all that sudden. Although, I am bit surprised that it took Harry nearly three years to realize that his relationship with Cho was very superficial in nature and to seek out another relationship. I tend to believe that deep within in himself the genesis of his feelings towards Ginny began with her rescue from the Chamber but, that he suppressed those feelings out of respect for not only Ron but, Mr. and Mrs. Weasley as well. I tend to think that Ginny was actually quite hurt by his relationship with Cho in addition to being in all likelihood envious of Cho. I would argue that when Harry saw Ginny kissing Dean he finally began to acknowledge his feelings for Ginny. Although, I think he will try to deny them or refuse to accept them until after Voldemort is defeated because, I think he believes that is the only way he can keep Ginny out of danger and protect her.
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CeilingofStars - Jul 25, 2005 12:15 pm (#1050 of 1858)
My problem is not so much because of the suddenness of the H/G ship, because I don't really think that it was that sudden, but I kind of feel disappointed by it because I don't really see that Ginny has any wonderful traits. Maybe this is movie contamination because I'm not thrilled by the girl who plays Ginny in the movies, but I don't remember ever liking Ginny very much. Maybe I should re-read the books. Can anybody point out any particular quotes/events that may make Ginny more well-developed and adult? 'Cause I kind of still see her as a little kid!
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Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 1051 to 1100)
Elanor Sun May 15, 2011 9:57 am
haymoni - Jul 25, 2005 12:25 pm (#1051 of 1858)
I always liked her "living with Fred & George makes you think anything is possible" quote.
Ginny is 15 - she isn't a little kid anymore.
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Ag Hart - Jul 25, 2005 12:36 pm (#1052 of 1858)
Edited Jul 25, 2005 1:59 pm
CeilingofStars: It was Ginny who found a way for Harry to contact Sirius in Goblet when he was so depressed. Unlike Hermione, she didn't argue with him about the danger. She just did it. (I believe haymoni's quotation relates to that.) Sounds like Harry's type of girl.
Ginny also confronted Harry in OoP when Harry wouldn't talk to anyone after overhearing Moody suggest he (Harry) could be possessed. Unlike the others, she didn't back down. The others wouldn't look at him, "but Ginny seemed quite unabashed." (Scholastic, p.499)
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Good Evans - Jul 25, 2005 12:38 pm (#1053 of 1858)
Practically perfect in every way
I was deligthed for Remus and Tonks, sadly however I fear for Tonks in the final chapter. I think she will be top of Fenir Greyback's(? the werewolf's) list when he finds out and I doubt it will be just to turn her either, it will be to kill.
I loved her lovesick actions and the confiding in Molly, beautifully done and that she got her man (wolf)at the end of the book, wonderful. I think she will die for her man if needed, but I do hope it doesnt come to that
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David Breeze - Jul 25, 2005 12:49 pm (#1054 of 1858)
How about a little bit of romance in the animal world?
Mrs Norris and Crookshanks (I presume he is male) would make a very nice couple!
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CeilingofStars - Jul 25, 2005 1:06 pm (#1055 of 1858)
Good Evans, why do you think Greyback will want to attack Tonks?
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Madam Pince - Jul 25, 2005 2:14 pm (#1056 of 1858)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
I am like Miss Malaprop -- I am not really a 'shipper, and never really understood what all the fuss was about because I don't see the "love-lives" of the characters as being a main focus of the series. Yes, I know that "love" is a big theme, but the whole boyfriend-girlfriend thing seemed somewhat misplaced to me.
That being said, I did think JKR gave crystal-clear hints throughout the series to this point that Ron & Hermione were going to be a couple. I really don't see how anyone could've thought otherwise, but oh well... I thought their interaction in this book was hilarious -- totally typical jealous teenagers. "I only like really good Quidditch players...." ***snort!***
I also always thought Harry and Ginny would make a nice couple. Bring Harry legally into the family and all that. Plus it makes a nice parallel with James and Lily (red hair), etc.
I agree with TGF -- I saw no clues prior to this book about Lupin and Tonks. I know that there were apparently some people who supported that 'ship long before this book, and good on them for picking up on it, but I honestly didn't see it coming. When Molly kept trying to invite both of them to dinners at the same time, though, it started to seem suspicious in this book. I was glad to see it happen and think it will be a good thing.
Bill and Fleur -- well, whatever floats your boat. I wouldn't pick her, but I will say she stood up well to the challenge and seems to actually care for him, and not just his looks or "rebel" attraction.
Draco and Pansy -- yuck. Who cares.
Snape/Narcissa or Snape/Lily -- some connection is definitely up here. I just haven't figured it all out yet.
And as for me and Argus -- well, he's really a wonderful man deep down. In fact, both of us are grossly misunderstood.
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Catherine - Jul 25, 2005 2:25 pm (#1057 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
And as for me and Argus -- well, he's really a wonderful man deep down. In fact, both of us are grossly misunderstood.--Madam Pince
Now that is what I call a SPEW moment!
I was only disappointed in this pairing because I would have liked to have seen Filch and Delores Umbridge ::waves to Weeny Owl:: but you can't win them all!
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Weeny Owl - Jul 25, 2005 3:07 pm (#1058 of 1858)
::waving to Catherine::
I was just so broken-hearted when Umbridge and Filch didn't sit together at the funeral. I thought they were perfect for each other... or at least if they were together they wouldn't be inflicting themselves on anyone else!
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bella - Jul 25, 2005 4:24 pm (#1059 of 1858)
I've always said there was an @ssh*le born every minute, but I think I need to revise that estimate upwards.
Edited by Denise P. Jul 25, 2005 4:27 pm
I don't at all think the H/G thing was rushed or that it was strange he didn't notice her until this year. I think everyone has to go through the superficial relationships before noticing the good one.
I deleted a line from this post. JKR does not delve into any physical aspect of a relationship other than kissing and that is the standard we have for discussing relationships on this board. Please try to keep to only what JKR has stated. Thanks! Denise P.
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Kazius - Jul 25, 2005 4:52 pm (#1060 of 1858)
Skeptic
I kinda fall in the whatever JKR wants to ship I will follow category.
She obviously developed R/H, but as close friends it often takes longer for people to notice their attraction. Whereas Harry and Ginny were seperated and yet noticed each other (We only get Harry's prospective, but I think there's an implication that Ginny was probably going through the same thoughts about Harry.) and then were brought together in one excited moment. It was a tad sudden, but if you read carefully it was built up pretty much the whole school year, we just don't live out the school year, Harry does however.
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Finn BV - Jul 25, 2005 5:41 pm (#1061 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
I was just so broken-hearted when Umbridge and Filch didn't sit together at the funeral. --Weeny Owl
Surely that's in (some form of) jest (at least I hope! ), but to make a realistic point, I think while Filch appreciated Umbridge, Umbridge appreciated and was affectionate towards nobody lower than the Ministry of Magic. After all, she was set in Hogwarts by the MoM, and it's one of those cases where boy falls for girl but girl doesn't fall for boy. You know? Okey dokey.
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rassannassar - Jul 25, 2005 7:38 pm (#1062 of 1858)
Personally, this is how I think the post book 7 relationships are going to be:
1) Harry and Ginny, mostly because I think Harry needs a strong woman to stand by him. I just don't think Hermione understands Harry in the same way that Ginny does.
2) Ron and Hermione: you could kind of see this one coming. Ron isn't stupid but he still needs someone clever because he seems to me to be about half a notch below Harry and about fifteen notches below Hermione, but it'd probably be pretty hard to be even five below her so....
3) Lupin and Tonks just because I really think that it feets but I can't explain exactly why.
4) I think Fred and George will find a nice set of twins who are exactly like them in every way as far a personality goes. Could you imagine how Mrs. Weasly not only had Fred and George to deal with, but if they had girlfriends/wives who were just like them?
5) I'm not paticular to Bill and Fleur but this could be a little funny because of Fleur's personality. But we knew this
6) Filch and Madame Pince. They're so isolated from/disliked by everyone else that it seems that this is the only one that would fit.
7) Percy will wind up with Umbridge because he did say it himself, she is simply delightful. LOL, just kidding. I really think Percy is a pompous, arrogant, git who will die alone, but that might be a bit harsh. Whatever happened to Penelope Clearwater?
Jo did say that Neville and Luna are so different and that Luna in herself is kind of alarming to Neville, but still, doesn't it say like they're growing on each other?
Number 6 may not even be in book 7 because it has absolutely nothing to do with anything.
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Weeny Owl - Jul 25, 2005 9:18 pm (#1063 of 1858)
Yes, fbv, it was a joke. It was a discussion on the other relationship thread about unlikely pairings.
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Elaine2005 - Jul 25, 2005 10:34 pm (#1064 of 1858)
My thoughts on the relationships: I was delighted by Lupin/Tonks--also very surprised! I am glad that Lupin found love, I just didn't expect it.
I expected Ron/Hermione to come together, but I too was irritated by Ron's behavior. I thought that the way he handled breaking up with his girlfriend was pretty weak, although consistent with the way he has handled sticky situations in the past.
I also expected Harry/Ginny but I was disappointed with how little we saw of their brief relationship. I do expect that they will be back together at the end of Book 7.
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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 26, 2005 12:11 am (#1065 of 1858)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Ginny's birthday is August 11. The finally Quiddich match is sometime after the Easter holidays, so mid-April-some point in May. She will be sixteen in just 3-4 months from the point when she and Harry finally get together.
I just read the entire JKR interview on Mugglenet. I had predicted on Lex before OoTP came out in 2003 that Cho would be Harry's girlfriend because he had to had a fling before he finds his "true" love (I don't know if that is still archived somewhere), JK has confirmed just that.
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Puck - Jul 26, 2005 11:16 am (#1066 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Anyone else find it amusing that Lavender would comment that Hermione only started talking to Ron after the poisoning because it made him more "interesting", when se herself had never shown any interest in him until after he fought the DE at the ministry? Just so hypocrytical.
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haymoni - Jul 26, 2005 11:29 am (#1067 of 1858)
I think Ginny is a perfect Leo.
She is a leader, she can be stubborn - she even has a pretty mane of hair.
Wait - did Ginny make prefect? I don't recall that in HBP. Wonder who got the patch?
She must be one of the nextdoor neighbors, too!
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Good Evans - Jul 26, 2005 11:52 am (#1068 of 1858)
Practically perfect in every way
ceiling of stars
I think that Greyback will attack Tonks in books 7 as it becomes clear that she is the girlfriend of Lupin. Lupin I expect is already suspected if not known to be against LV, despite having lived with the werewolves. When it all comes out and the last stand in the last book, I think Tonks is in very great danger.
Greyback likes to kill / maim for fun, he bit Lupin as he had a grudge against his father. I suspect wanting to hurt Lupin again will seem like fair sport, especially if his loyalty to the order is detected. Tonks it must be known is an auror, and therefore against LV.
Those are my reasons, just a hunch but I think she is in greater danger than before as she has a more open relationship with Lupin now.
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firebolt - Jul 26, 2005 4:12 pm (#1069 of 1858)
I think you have a good point, Good Evans (#74). Your post made me wonder whether Tonks will be attacked by Greyback and herself become a werewolf, which could complicate her relationship with Lupin even more. But I guess we don't really have time to complicate things - things will have to be wrapped up...sigh...
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Amilia Smith - Jul 26, 2005 6:44 pm (#1070 of 1858)
Any thoughts on George and the muggle girl from the village who thought his card tricks were just like magic?
Harry/Ginny clues preHBP: I remember noting to myself that Harry was awfully embarrassed to be tackled by a dwarf Cupid in front of her in CoS. However, he really didn't ever seem to see her as anything other than his best mate's kid sister . . . which is why I never publicly jumped aboard the H/G ship.
I like Ginny. She is very practical, matter-of-fact. She has a way of looking at things that puts them in perspective, which is nice as Harry has a way of brooding on things until they have been blown way out of proportion. Not so much in this book, granted, but very much so in OotP. We don't know much about her prior to OotP, as she never spoke much before then, but once she does start speaking, we find out alot about her character. Besides the Easter-egg incident and the calming-Harry-when-he-thought-he-was-being-posessed incident mentioned previously: Ginny cleaned everybody up when Neville's Mimbulus Mimbletonia (sp?) sprayed them all with goo on the Hogwarts Express; she figured out a way to discover if a door has been imperturbed; she put Harry's Quidditch ban in perspective for him when she told him that she would be moving to Chaser once he returned to the team; adding to that thought, Ginny did not take Umbridge seriously enough to consider her a permanent addition to Hogwarts.
Does Ginny know about the horcruxes? I don't think she does, as Harry only had permission to speak of them to Ron and Hermione. He didn't even make an exception for McGonagall. How do you think this is going to play out in Book 7? If Ron and Hermione do as threatened and tag along with Harry as he goes on his treasure hunt, I rather think Ginny will take exception and tag along as well.
Mills.
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Susurro Notities - Jul 26, 2005 6:51 pm (#1071 of 1858)
Ginny's reaction to Harry when he tells her that they cannot continue to be together shows her to be an extraordinary young woman. Most 15 year old girls would have made a fuss. Ginny quietly understands.
Will Ginny join Harry, Ron, and Hermione in the hunt for Horcruxes?
How would they stop her?
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Steve Newton - Jul 26, 2005 7:28 pm (#1072 of 1858)
Librarian
I think that she took it so well because she was lying through her teeth about not staying together. She is very strong willed.
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Susurro Notities - Jul 26, 2005 7:47 pm (#1073 of 1858)
Edited by Jul 26, 2005 7:47 pm
It doesn't matter why she took it well - she did - which is more than most 15 year old girls would have.
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TangledWeb - Jul 26, 2005 8:03 pm (#1074 of 1858)
What I enjoyed about Harry and Ginny's relationship is, although it was only for a short time in the book, it seemed like they completely got into the groove of being in a relationship with each other...it just seemed to me like it was so natural for them to be an item.
Right after Dumbledore's funeral, when Harry looked at Ginny to tell her that they shouldn't see each other anymore, JK wrote that they looked at each other, and they understood each other perfectly...no words were necessary because they could feel what the other person was thinking.
Not bad for a couple of teenagers who have just started dating. Although they have known each other for a long time, it seemed to me that only this year did they really spend a lot of time with each other, and really got to know one another. To have such perfect accord with another person is not common, and I was really glad that JK described that for Harry and Ginny so well in HBP.
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loopy4loopin - Jul 26, 2005 8:12 pm (#1075 of 1858)
"Does anyone know why Draco's mother would have felt so bold as to ask and expect Snape to act on behalf of her son? Has there been any speculation about "Cissy" and Snape's relationship"
To me this is the outstanding ship revelation in HBP. It seemed really obvious to me that Snape was utterly besotted with Narcissa. He would do anything for her. It also seems to fit, for me, how I see Snape. We would fally obsessively in love with a pure blood whiter-than-white princess. Maybe it was when she married Malfoy that Snape changed sides.
What is the evidence? Lots of little things, but mainly the very physical nature of the scene. I find that in all of the books the adults who are shown as having physical contact are the ones who care, as with Lupin holding back Sirius and then Harry in crucial scenes. Snape generally avoids physical contact as if he finds others too off-putting to touch or only touches them roughly when in a rage. Snape being Snape, he is positively passionate with Narcissa.
And of course, there is that little problem of Narcissa somehow knowing that she can manipulate Snape.....no-one else can!
Tania
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Alex Thorpe - Jul 27, 2005 5:22 am (#1076 of 1858)
British New Member
Following on from a comment in a different thread, where does this book leave Hermione/Krum, particularly as we know we're gonna see him again... ?
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Puck - Jul 27, 2005 7:52 pm (#1077 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I would guess little more than pen pals at this point. Poor Viktor! And here he thought it was Harry he had to worry about!
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Ag Hart - Jul 27, 2005 8:40 pm (#1078 of 1858)
loopy4loopin--Thanks for your insights. You're right. Snape does act as though he is "besotted" (for Snape that is). He is downright civil, even gallant.
Well, Alex, since JKR said we would see Krum again in Book 7, I suspect he will come to the aid of Hermione and the others. He comes from a school that teaches the Dark Arts and would be a great help in dealing with the Death Eaters. Maybe he'll be able to help with finding one of the horcruxes. His reappearance would also provide an opportunity for Ron to show his jealousy. Perhaps he will be given the chance to show his love for Hermione by making the ultimate sacrifice.
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rambkowalczyk - Jul 28, 2005 7:11 am (#1079 of 1858)
Has anyone else noted the apparant irony that Snape as a half-blood may have had affections for both Lily, a Muggleborn, and Narcissa, a pure-blood? On one hand he was too good for one and not good enough for the other--assuming of course one buys into that nonsense.
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LooneyLuna - Jul 28, 2005 7:46 am (#1080 of 1858)
I'm not sure where to put this thought about Snape, but I will try it here.
Assuming that Snape and Lily were at least friends at Hogwarts for a few years (with Snape being secretly in love with her), do you think that Snape's Worst Memory is actually about Lily and not about James? That calling Lily a "mudblood" so insulted her that she ended their friendship?
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haymoni - Jul 28, 2005 8:19 am (#1081 of 1858)
And then being embarrassed by James on top of it!
Good theory, Looney Luna!
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i heart remus - Jul 28, 2005 12:54 pm (#1082 of 1858)
I was so ridiculously happy about the Lupin/Tonks 'ship that I couldn't stop grinning, even all the way though Dumbledore's funeral and everything!! I've been thinking Lupin needed a girlfriend, and who else is better than Tonks. I think she's one of the coolest characters in the series.
As for Harry and Ginny, I knew it was going to happen and I'm just glad Ron took it the way he did rather than trying to murder Harry in his sleep *grin*. Ron and Hermione is going sooooo slowly, but I'll bet that R/Hr shippers will have a field day in book 7! Can't wait!
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M A Grimmett - Jul 28, 2005 1:37 pm (#1083 of 1858)
I don't think that Harry will--or should--be able to stop his relationship with Ginny. Since Snape and Draco both know about it, LV will too--Ginny is not safe. Just as Harry's feelings of distance from Ron and Hermione didn't last long into HBP, I don't think the breakup will last long into book 7.
As for Hermione, I think that Ron isn't going to make it out of the series. But there's always Viktor...
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loopy4loopin - Jul 28, 2005 6:15 pm (#1084 of 1858)
HI Looney,
I think that Snape has a mortal fear of being embarrassed. Thats why it was his worst memory. I think that the memory showed that at that age Snape's ideas on race were still very much LVs. He hated muggle-born wizards. He was an elitist. He would have fallen in love with the aristocratic Narcissa rather than the popular Lily.
........or so I see it :-)
Loopy4
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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 28, 2005 9:42 pm (#1085 of 1858)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Whaoo Dr. Fili!! I just found this in the archived thread while searching for a different post. I knew someone here had called Lupin/Tonks. Your inner eye must have been on overload, you also called a pending wedding.
Dr. Filibuster - Aug 30, 2003 6:05 pm (#1 of 2915) Reply Tonks and Lupin?
They've been thrown together in OoP. OK there's an age gap, but it's not that much considering their life expectancies. It would almost remind me of some Jane Austin matches.
Or perhaps I've been reading too many JKR interviews and redhen essays.
Bill and Fleur is a given.
Will we ever see Madame Maxime again?
And I like a previous suggestion about seeing a wedding. I've wanted to see a wizarding world knees up for ages. The closest we've had is the Yule Ball.
sere, your post #50 that’s pretty amazing. I am a married mother of four yet I missed the inferences completely. On re-reading I’m amazed at how very subtly discrete JKR is. I did notice that although there is a great deal of violence and mayhem right at the beginning, it all takes place "off camera". My husband and I discussed this in trying to decide if our nine year will get to read HBP. She's written the sexual innuendo so discreetly I did not get the full impact however. Just the first passage after their kiss after winning the match...
“…he grinned down at Ginny and gestured wordlessly out of the portrait hole. A long walk in the grounds seemed indicated, during which---if they had time --they might discuss the match.”
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LooneyLuna - Jul 29, 2005 5:57 am (#1086 of 1858)
Thank you, loopy! I see what you are saying and that's what I had originally thought about Snape's Worst Memory.
After reading HBP, I'm not so sure it was all about James and the Marauders, surely that was what Harry was focused on in the memory. But Lily coming to Snape's defense (where they friends?) and her reaction (wide-eyed shock) at being called a mudblood (she knew he was?) lead me to believe that the whole James & Co. incident was merely a distraction to what really happened (it was also a way to introduce the Levicorpus and Sectumsempra non verbal spells). Whatever relationship Snape and Lily had was ended that day, especially when she called him "Snivellus". She had to be truly insulted by his remark to make that comment (since we know she was a kind person to begin with).
Sorry, so long-winded!
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Valfunde - Jul 29, 2005 8:59 am (#1087 of 1858)
University Pre-Health Professions Advisor
Edited by Jul 29, 2005 9:28 am
Alex - I've thought of Hermione/Krum too! Here's how I think it might play out - Do you think that JKR might bring Krum back into book 7 in the fight against LV? Krum is back and wants to start up his relationship again with Hermione, but she and Ron are just starting to explore their feelings for each other -like actually acting like they like each other in "that way", publically snogging/holding hands, etc. It will be all very sweet and innocent. Now, I think this will begin to happen with H/R at Bill and Fleur's wedding.
I can completely see a final test of their relationship when Krum comes back into the picture! I'm envisioning a little Krum/H/Ron love triangle. Hermione will stay true to Ron until he lets his insecurity get the best of him, and for a bit, he might act like a jerk and say, well "You snogged him before, etc." and there will be a little tiff between them. But in the end Ron will finally stand up and "fight" for the woman he loves, which in turn will 100% help most of his self-esteem issues and turn him into a man...so to speak! Now, granted there won't be much time for this love triangle as R/H are going to be helping Harry find those Horcruxes and fighting evil and such in the last book. What do you guys think about this?
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Valfunde - Jul 29, 2005 9:04 am (#1088 of 1858)
University Pre-Health Professions Advisor
Edited by Jul 29, 2005 9:06 am
Looney Luna - Oh, yes. That's what I think too. What makes this time any different than all the other times James and Sirius bullied Snape? Lily was there and in his adolescent and immature way, took his humiliation and rage at the situation at hand out on her by calling her that name. That is why this is his worst memory. She does BLINK like she is very surprised to be called his by him, indicating they have had some kind of friendly relationship together. Now, with those words - the relationship that meant so much to Snape is over. And from that point on, she starts taking up with James and his "gang." And we all KNOW how Snape feels about those fellows!
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Nymphadora Lupin - Jul 29, 2005 2:29 pm (#1089 of 1858)
Now, granted there won't be much time for this love triangle as R/H are going to be helping Harry find those Horcruxes and fighting evil and such in the last book. What do you guys think about this?
You know, this H/R/V love triangle could also serve as the perfect parallel to a S/J/L love triangle, if indeed there was one. It could really serve a purpose in the narrative in getting Harry to understand the big picture.
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Valfunde - Jul 29, 2005 3:33 pm (#1090 of 1858)
University Pre-Health Professions Advisor
Edited by Jul 29, 2005 3:38 pm
Nymphadora Lupin - Oh, that's really interesting! Nice post. I didn't think of that. If there's a J/L/S triangle, Harry will be horrified at first to even think of another man loving his mom (teenagers and kids don't think of their parents in this way do they) and let alone if the other guy is SNAPE! Yikes! Maybe seeing his two best friends working through something like this will help him through.
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Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Jul 30, 2005 12:53 pm (#1091 of 1858)
No day but Today
I don't know about this triangle thing. I would think that Hermione would write to Victor and tell him she is with Ron, so he won't be surprised when he comes to see them. I have a feeling that she has confided her feelings to Victor about Ron before, and that they (H/V)really are just good friends now.
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Ag Hart - Jul 30, 2005 1:16 pm (#1092 of 1858)
When I first mentioned that Krum might return to complicate things (post #84) for Ron and Hermione, I suggested he would return because his school places so much emphasis on learning about the Dark Arts, and he would have more expertise than the average Hogwarts student. I think he might become a valuable asset to the DA whose role may become more important than ever. His presence would lend that dimension of international cooperation that was so important to Dumbledore as well. The H/R/K triangle could provide some comic relief, unless (or until) as I previously suggested, he must make the ultimate sacrifice for Hermione. (Here's hoping it won't be Ron!)
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 30, 2005 2:03 pm (#1093 of 1858)
In re-reading CoS, OotP, and HBP there are some connections between Harry and Ginny that do not exist between the other characters.
First, both Ginny and Harry have been subjected to possession by Voldemort although, the nature and the degree of possession varied ultimately both were unsuccessful.
Second, both have utilized books that caused the dark side of their personalities to come to the surface and dominate their personalities for a period of time before, being reined in.
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timrew - Jul 30, 2005 4:38 pm (#1094 of 1858)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Lupin and Tonks are an item. What will 'their song' be?
1:- Werewolf in London
2:- Bad Moon Rising
3:- Blue Moon
4:- That Old Black Magic
5:- The First Time Ever I Saw Your (Hairy) Face.........
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Saralinda Again - Jul 30, 2005 4:46 pm (#1095 of 1858)
My Patronus is a Crumple-Horn Snorkack
Honky-Tonks Woman
When the Moon's Big and Low and Your Fangs Start to Grow, That's-a-Lupin
If I Was a Lycanthrope and You Were a Lady ...
The Real Slim Shave-Me
Stop me quick somebody ...
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timrew - Jul 30, 2005 4:52 pm (#1096 of 1858)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Stop it, Saralinda, it'll only end in tears!
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Saralinda Again - Jul 30, 2005 4:54 pm (#1097 of 1858)
My Patronus is a Crumple-Horn Snorkack
Heck, if I had a song, it'd be "Tears before bed time."
(sigh)
One last thought: The Beast Years of Our Lives?
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timrew - Jul 30, 2005 5:15 pm (#1098 of 1858)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
LOL, Saralinda! There let it end........
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Paulus Maximus - Jul 30, 2005 7:24 pm (#1099 of 1858)
Is it really a given that the 'ships as of the end of HBP are final? JKR herself said that Neville and Luna were not an item, so it seems rather odd that a good deal of evidence points to that 'ship...
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 30, 2005 8:57 pm (#1100 of 1858)
Paulus, authors can be fickle at time perhaps J.K. Rowling decided that the relationship would tweak Augusta Longbottom's nose.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I always liked her "living with Fred & George makes you think anything is possible" quote.
Ginny is 15 - she isn't a little kid anymore.
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Ag Hart - Jul 25, 2005 12:36 pm (#1052 of 1858)
Edited Jul 25, 2005 1:59 pm
CeilingofStars: It was Ginny who found a way for Harry to contact Sirius in Goblet when he was so depressed. Unlike Hermione, she didn't argue with him about the danger. She just did it. (I believe haymoni's quotation relates to that.) Sounds like Harry's type of girl.
Ginny also confronted Harry in OoP when Harry wouldn't talk to anyone after overhearing Moody suggest he (Harry) could be possessed. Unlike the others, she didn't back down. The others wouldn't look at him, "but Ginny seemed quite unabashed." (Scholastic, p.499)
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Good Evans - Jul 25, 2005 12:38 pm (#1053 of 1858)
Practically perfect in every way
I was deligthed for Remus and Tonks, sadly however I fear for Tonks in the final chapter. I think she will be top of Fenir Greyback's(? the werewolf's) list when he finds out and I doubt it will be just to turn her either, it will be to kill.
I loved her lovesick actions and the confiding in Molly, beautifully done and that she got her man (wolf)at the end of the book, wonderful. I think she will die for her man if needed, but I do hope it doesnt come to that
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David Breeze - Jul 25, 2005 12:49 pm (#1054 of 1858)
How about a little bit of romance in the animal world?
Mrs Norris and Crookshanks (I presume he is male) would make a very nice couple!
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CeilingofStars - Jul 25, 2005 1:06 pm (#1055 of 1858)
Good Evans, why do you think Greyback will want to attack Tonks?
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Madam Pince - Jul 25, 2005 2:14 pm (#1056 of 1858)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
I am like Miss Malaprop -- I am not really a 'shipper, and never really understood what all the fuss was about because I don't see the "love-lives" of the characters as being a main focus of the series. Yes, I know that "love" is a big theme, but the whole boyfriend-girlfriend thing seemed somewhat misplaced to me.
That being said, I did think JKR gave crystal-clear hints throughout the series to this point that Ron & Hermione were going to be a couple. I really don't see how anyone could've thought otherwise, but oh well... I thought their interaction in this book was hilarious -- totally typical jealous teenagers. "I only like really good Quidditch players...." ***snort!***
I also always thought Harry and Ginny would make a nice couple. Bring Harry legally into the family and all that. Plus it makes a nice parallel with James and Lily (red hair), etc.
I agree with TGF -- I saw no clues prior to this book about Lupin and Tonks. I know that there were apparently some people who supported that 'ship long before this book, and good on them for picking up on it, but I honestly didn't see it coming. When Molly kept trying to invite both of them to dinners at the same time, though, it started to seem suspicious in this book. I was glad to see it happen and think it will be a good thing.
Bill and Fleur -- well, whatever floats your boat. I wouldn't pick her, but I will say she stood up well to the challenge and seems to actually care for him, and not just his looks or "rebel" attraction.
Draco and Pansy -- yuck. Who cares.
Snape/Narcissa or Snape/Lily -- some connection is definitely up here. I just haven't figured it all out yet.
And as for me and Argus -- well, he's really a wonderful man deep down. In fact, both of us are grossly misunderstood.
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Catherine - Jul 25, 2005 2:25 pm (#1057 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
And as for me and Argus -- well, he's really a wonderful man deep down. In fact, both of us are grossly misunderstood.--Madam Pince
Now that is what I call a SPEW moment!
I was only disappointed in this pairing because I would have liked to have seen Filch and Delores Umbridge ::waves to Weeny Owl:: but you can't win them all!
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Weeny Owl - Jul 25, 2005 3:07 pm (#1058 of 1858)
::waving to Catherine::
I was just so broken-hearted when Umbridge and Filch didn't sit together at the funeral. I thought they were perfect for each other... or at least if they were together they wouldn't be inflicting themselves on anyone else!
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bella - Jul 25, 2005 4:24 pm (#1059 of 1858)
I've always said there was an @ssh*le born every minute, but I think I need to revise that estimate upwards.
Edited by Denise P. Jul 25, 2005 4:27 pm
I don't at all think the H/G thing was rushed or that it was strange he didn't notice her until this year. I think everyone has to go through the superficial relationships before noticing the good one.
I deleted a line from this post. JKR does not delve into any physical aspect of a relationship other than kissing and that is the standard we have for discussing relationships on this board. Please try to keep to only what JKR has stated. Thanks! Denise P.
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Kazius - Jul 25, 2005 4:52 pm (#1060 of 1858)
Skeptic
I kinda fall in the whatever JKR wants to ship I will follow category.
She obviously developed R/H, but as close friends it often takes longer for people to notice their attraction. Whereas Harry and Ginny were seperated and yet noticed each other (We only get Harry's prospective, but I think there's an implication that Ginny was probably going through the same thoughts about Harry.) and then were brought together in one excited moment. It was a tad sudden, but if you read carefully it was built up pretty much the whole school year, we just don't live out the school year, Harry does however.
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Finn BV - Jul 25, 2005 5:41 pm (#1061 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
I was just so broken-hearted when Umbridge and Filch didn't sit together at the funeral. --Weeny Owl
Surely that's in (some form of) jest (at least I hope! ), but to make a realistic point, I think while Filch appreciated Umbridge, Umbridge appreciated and was affectionate towards nobody lower than the Ministry of Magic. After all, she was set in Hogwarts by the MoM, and it's one of those cases where boy falls for girl but girl doesn't fall for boy. You know? Okey dokey.
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rassannassar - Jul 25, 2005 7:38 pm (#1062 of 1858)
Personally, this is how I think the post book 7 relationships are going to be:
1) Harry and Ginny, mostly because I think Harry needs a strong woman to stand by him. I just don't think Hermione understands Harry in the same way that Ginny does.
2) Ron and Hermione: you could kind of see this one coming. Ron isn't stupid but he still needs someone clever because he seems to me to be about half a notch below Harry and about fifteen notches below Hermione, but it'd probably be pretty hard to be even five below her so....
3) Lupin and Tonks just because I really think that it feets but I can't explain exactly why.
4) I think Fred and George will find a nice set of twins who are exactly like them in every way as far a personality goes. Could you imagine how Mrs. Weasly not only had Fred and George to deal with, but if they had girlfriends/wives who were just like them?
5) I'm not paticular to Bill and Fleur but this could be a little funny because of Fleur's personality. But we knew this
6) Filch and Madame Pince. They're so isolated from/disliked by everyone else that it seems that this is the only one that would fit.
7) Percy will wind up with Umbridge because he did say it himself, she is simply delightful. LOL, just kidding. I really think Percy is a pompous, arrogant, git who will die alone, but that might be a bit harsh. Whatever happened to Penelope Clearwater?
Jo did say that Neville and Luna are so different and that Luna in herself is kind of alarming to Neville, but still, doesn't it say like they're growing on each other? Number 6 may not even be in book 7 because it has absolutely nothing to do with anything.
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Weeny Owl - Jul 25, 2005 9:18 pm (#1063 of 1858)
Yes, fbv, it was a joke. It was a discussion on the other relationship thread about unlikely pairings.
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Elaine2005 - Jul 25, 2005 10:34 pm (#1064 of 1858)
My thoughts on the relationships: I was delighted by Lupin/Tonks--also very surprised! I am glad that Lupin found love, I just didn't expect it.
I expected Ron/Hermione to come together, but I too was irritated by Ron's behavior. I thought that the way he handled breaking up with his girlfriend was pretty weak, although consistent with the way he has handled sticky situations in the past.
I also expected Harry/Ginny but I was disappointed with how little we saw of their brief relationship. I do expect that they will be back together at the end of Book 7.
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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 26, 2005 12:11 am (#1065 of 1858)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Ginny's birthday is August 11. The finally Quiddich match is sometime after the Easter holidays, so mid-April-some point in May. She will be sixteen in just 3-4 months from the point when she and Harry finally get together.
I just read the entire JKR interview on Mugglenet. I had predicted on Lex before OoTP came out in 2003 that Cho would be Harry's girlfriend because he had to had a fling before he finds his "true" love (I don't know if that is still archived somewhere), JK has confirmed just that.
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Puck - Jul 26, 2005 11:16 am (#1066 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Anyone else find it amusing that Lavender would comment that Hermione only started talking to Ron after the poisoning because it made him more "interesting", when se herself had never shown any interest in him until after he fought the DE at the ministry? Just so hypocrytical.
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haymoni - Jul 26, 2005 11:29 am (#1067 of 1858)
I think Ginny is a perfect Leo.
She is a leader, she can be stubborn - she even has a pretty mane of hair.
Wait - did Ginny make prefect? I don't recall that in HBP. Wonder who got the patch?
She must be one of the nextdoor neighbors, too!
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Good Evans - Jul 26, 2005 11:52 am (#1068 of 1858)
Practically perfect in every way
ceiling of stars
I think that Greyback will attack Tonks in books 7 as it becomes clear that she is the girlfriend of Lupin. Lupin I expect is already suspected if not known to be against LV, despite having lived with the werewolves. When it all comes out and the last stand in the last book, I think Tonks is in very great danger.
Greyback likes to kill / maim for fun, he bit Lupin as he had a grudge against his father. I suspect wanting to hurt Lupin again will seem like fair sport, especially if his loyalty to the order is detected. Tonks it must be known is an auror, and therefore against LV.
Those are my reasons, just a hunch but I think she is in greater danger than before as she has a more open relationship with Lupin now.
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firebolt - Jul 26, 2005 4:12 pm (#1069 of 1858)
I think you have a good point, Good Evans (#74). Your post made me wonder whether Tonks will be attacked by Greyback and herself become a werewolf, which could complicate her relationship with Lupin even more. But I guess we don't really have time to complicate things - things will have to be wrapped up...sigh...
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Amilia Smith - Jul 26, 2005 6:44 pm (#1070 of 1858)
Any thoughts on George and the muggle girl from the village who thought his card tricks were just like magic?
Harry/Ginny clues preHBP: I remember noting to myself that Harry was awfully embarrassed to be tackled by a dwarf Cupid in front of her in CoS. However, he really didn't ever seem to see her as anything other than his best mate's kid sister . . . which is why I never publicly jumped aboard the H/G ship.
I like Ginny. She is very practical, matter-of-fact. She has a way of looking at things that puts them in perspective, which is nice as Harry has a way of brooding on things until they have been blown way out of proportion. Not so much in this book, granted, but very much so in OotP. We don't know much about her prior to OotP, as she never spoke much before then, but once she does start speaking, we find out alot about her character. Besides the Easter-egg incident and the calming-Harry-when-he-thought-he-was-being-posessed incident mentioned previously: Ginny cleaned everybody up when Neville's Mimbulus Mimbletonia (sp?) sprayed them all with goo on the Hogwarts Express; she figured out a way to discover if a door has been imperturbed; she put Harry's Quidditch ban in perspective for him when she told him that she would be moving to Chaser once he returned to the team; adding to that thought, Ginny did not take Umbridge seriously enough to consider her a permanent addition to Hogwarts.
Does Ginny know about the horcruxes? I don't think she does, as Harry only had permission to speak of them to Ron and Hermione. He didn't even make an exception for McGonagall. How do you think this is going to play out in Book 7? If Ron and Hermione do as threatened and tag along with Harry as he goes on his treasure hunt, I rather think Ginny will take exception and tag along as well.
Mills.
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Susurro Notities - Jul 26, 2005 6:51 pm (#1071 of 1858)
Ginny's reaction to Harry when he tells her that they cannot continue to be together shows her to be an extraordinary young woman. Most 15 year old girls would have made a fuss. Ginny quietly understands.
Will Ginny join Harry, Ron, and Hermione in the hunt for Horcruxes?
How would they stop her?
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Steve Newton - Jul 26, 2005 7:28 pm (#1072 of 1858)
Librarian
I think that she took it so well because she was lying through her teeth about not staying together. She is very strong willed.
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Susurro Notities - Jul 26, 2005 7:47 pm (#1073 of 1858)
Edited by Jul 26, 2005 7:47 pm
It doesn't matter why she took it well - she did - which is more than most 15 year old girls would have.
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TangledWeb - Jul 26, 2005 8:03 pm (#1074 of 1858)
What I enjoyed about Harry and Ginny's relationship is, although it was only for a short time in the book, it seemed like they completely got into the groove of being in a relationship with each other...it just seemed to me like it was so natural for them to be an item.
Right after Dumbledore's funeral, when Harry looked at Ginny to tell her that they shouldn't see each other anymore, JK wrote that they looked at each other, and they understood each other perfectly...no words were necessary because they could feel what the other person was thinking.
Not bad for a couple of teenagers who have just started dating. Although they have known each other for a long time, it seemed to me that only this year did they really spend a lot of time with each other, and really got to know one another. To have such perfect accord with another person is not common, and I was really glad that JK described that for Harry and Ginny so well in HBP.
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loopy4loopin - Jul 26, 2005 8:12 pm (#1075 of 1858)
"Does anyone know why Draco's mother would have felt so bold as to ask and expect Snape to act on behalf of her son? Has there been any speculation about "Cissy" and Snape's relationship"
To me this is the outstanding ship revelation in HBP. It seemed really obvious to me that Snape was utterly besotted with Narcissa. He would do anything for her. It also seems to fit, for me, how I see Snape. We would fally obsessively in love with a pure blood whiter-than-white princess. Maybe it was when she married Malfoy that Snape changed sides.
What is the evidence? Lots of little things, but mainly the very physical nature of the scene. I find that in all of the books the adults who are shown as having physical contact are the ones who care, as with Lupin holding back Sirius and then Harry in crucial scenes. Snape generally avoids physical contact as if he finds others too off-putting to touch or only touches them roughly when in a rage. Snape being Snape, he is positively passionate with Narcissa.
And of course, there is that little problem of Narcissa somehow knowing that she can manipulate Snape.....no-one else can!
Tania
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Alex Thorpe - Jul 27, 2005 5:22 am (#1076 of 1858)
British New Member
Following on from a comment in a different thread, where does this book leave Hermione/Krum, particularly as we know we're gonna see him again... ?
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Puck - Jul 27, 2005 7:52 pm (#1077 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I would guess little more than pen pals at this point. Poor Viktor! And here he thought it was Harry he had to worry about!
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Ag Hart - Jul 27, 2005 8:40 pm (#1078 of 1858)
loopy4loopin--Thanks for your insights. You're right. Snape does act as though he is "besotted" (for Snape that is). He is downright civil, even gallant.
Well, Alex, since JKR said we would see Krum again in Book 7, I suspect he will come to the aid of Hermione and the others. He comes from a school that teaches the Dark Arts and would be a great help in dealing with the Death Eaters. Maybe he'll be able to help with finding one of the horcruxes. His reappearance would also provide an opportunity for Ron to show his jealousy. Perhaps he will be given the chance to show his love for Hermione by making the ultimate sacrifice.
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rambkowalczyk - Jul 28, 2005 7:11 am (#1079 of 1858)
Has anyone else noted the apparant irony that Snape as a half-blood may have had affections for both Lily, a Muggleborn, and Narcissa, a pure-blood? On one hand he was too good for one and not good enough for the other--assuming of course one buys into that nonsense.
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LooneyLuna - Jul 28, 2005 7:46 am (#1080 of 1858)
I'm not sure where to put this thought about Snape, but I will try it here.
Assuming that Snape and Lily were at least friends at Hogwarts for a few years (with Snape being secretly in love with her), do you think that Snape's Worst Memory is actually about Lily and not about James? That calling Lily a "mudblood" so insulted her that she ended their friendship?
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haymoni - Jul 28, 2005 8:19 am (#1081 of 1858)
And then being embarrassed by James on top of it!
Good theory, Looney Luna!
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i heart remus - Jul 28, 2005 12:54 pm (#1082 of 1858)
I was so ridiculously happy about the Lupin/Tonks 'ship that I couldn't stop grinning, even all the way though Dumbledore's funeral and everything!! I've been thinking Lupin needed a girlfriend, and who else is better than Tonks. I think she's one of the coolest characters in the series.
As for Harry and Ginny, I knew it was going to happen and I'm just glad Ron took it the way he did rather than trying to murder Harry in his sleep *grin*. Ron and Hermione is going sooooo slowly, but I'll bet that R/Hr shippers will have a field day in book 7! Can't wait!
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M A Grimmett - Jul 28, 2005 1:37 pm (#1083 of 1858)
I don't think that Harry will--or should--be able to stop his relationship with Ginny. Since Snape and Draco both know about it, LV will too--Ginny is not safe. Just as Harry's feelings of distance from Ron and Hermione didn't last long into HBP, I don't think the breakup will last long into book 7.
As for Hermione, I think that Ron isn't going to make it out of the series. But there's always Viktor...
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loopy4loopin - Jul 28, 2005 6:15 pm (#1084 of 1858)
HI Looney,
I think that Snape has a mortal fear of being embarrassed. Thats why it was his worst memory. I think that the memory showed that at that age Snape's ideas on race were still very much LVs. He hated muggle-born wizards. He was an elitist. He would have fallen in love with the aristocratic Narcissa rather than the popular Lily.
........or so I see it :-)
Loopy4
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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 28, 2005 9:42 pm (#1085 of 1858)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Whaoo Dr. Fili!! I just found this in the archived thread while searching for a different post. I knew someone here had called Lupin/Tonks. Your inner eye must have been on overload, you also called a pending wedding.
Dr. Filibuster - Aug 30, 2003 6:05 pm (#1 of 2915) Reply Tonks and Lupin?
They've been thrown together in OoP. OK there's an age gap, but it's not that much considering their life expectancies. It would almost remind me of some Jane Austin matches.
Or perhaps I've been reading too many JKR interviews and redhen essays.
Bill and Fleur is a given.
Will we ever see Madame Maxime again?
And I like a previous suggestion about seeing a wedding. I've wanted to see a wizarding world knees up for ages. The closest we've had is the Yule Ball.
sere, your post #50 that’s pretty amazing. I am a married mother of four yet I missed the inferences completely. On re-reading I’m amazed at how very subtly discrete JKR is. I did notice that although there is a great deal of violence and mayhem right at the beginning, it all takes place "off camera". My husband and I discussed this in trying to decide if our nine year will get to read HBP. She's written the sexual innuendo so discreetly I did not get the full impact however. Just the first passage after their kiss after winning the match...
“…he grinned down at Ginny and gestured wordlessly out of the portrait hole. A long walk in the grounds seemed indicated, during which---if they had time --they might discuss the match.”
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LooneyLuna - Jul 29, 2005 5:57 am (#1086 of 1858)
Thank you, loopy! I see what you are saying and that's what I had originally thought about Snape's Worst Memory.
After reading HBP, I'm not so sure it was all about James and the Marauders, surely that was what Harry was focused on in the memory. But Lily coming to Snape's defense (where they friends?) and her reaction (wide-eyed shock) at being called a mudblood (she knew he was?) lead me to believe that the whole James & Co. incident was merely a distraction to what really happened (it was also a way to introduce the Levicorpus and Sectumsempra non verbal spells). Whatever relationship Snape and Lily had was ended that day, especially when she called him "Snivellus". She had to be truly insulted by his remark to make that comment (since we know she was a kind person to begin with).
Sorry, so long-winded!
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Valfunde - Jul 29, 2005 8:59 am (#1087 of 1858)
University Pre-Health Professions Advisor
Edited by Jul 29, 2005 9:28 am
Alex - I've thought of Hermione/Krum too! Here's how I think it might play out - Do you think that JKR might bring Krum back into book 7 in the fight against LV? Krum is back and wants to start up his relationship again with Hermione, but she and Ron are just starting to explore their feelings for each other -like actually acting like they like each other in "that way", publically snogging/holding hands, etc. It will be all very sweet and innocent. Now, I think this will begin to happen with H/R at Bill and Fleur's wedding.
I can completely see a final test of their relationship when Krum comes back into the picture! I'm envisioning a little Krum/H/Ron love triangle. Hermione will stay true to Ron until he lets his insecurity get the best of him, and for a bit, he might act like a jerk and say, well "You snogged him before, etc." and there will be a little tiff between them. But in the end Ron will finally stand up and "fight" for the woman he loves, which in turn will 100% help most of his self-esteem issues and turn him into a man...so to speak! Now, granted there won't be much time for this love triangle as R/H are going to be helping Harry find those Horcruxes and fighting evil and such in the last book. What do you guys think about this?
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Valfunde - Jul 29, 2005 9:04 am (#1088 of 1858)
University Pre-Health Professions Advisor
Edited by Jul 29, 2005 9:06 am
Looney Luna - Oh, yes. That's what I think too. What makes this time any different than all the other times James and Sirius bullied Snape? Lily was there and in his adolescent and immature way, took his humiliation and rage at the situation at hand out on her by calling her that name. That is why this is his worst memory. She does BLINK like she is very surprised to be called his by him, indicating they have had some kind of friendly relationship together. Now, with those words - the relationship that meant so much to Snape is over. And from that point on, she starts taking up with James and his "gang." And we all KNOW how Snape feels about those fellows!
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Nymphadora Lupin - Jul 29, 2005 2:29 pm (#1089 of 1858)
Now, granted there won't be much time for this love triangle as R/H are going to be helping Harry find those Horcruxes and fighting evil and such in the last book. What do you guys think about this?
You know, this H/R/V love triangle could also serve as the perfect parallel to a S/J/L love triangle, if indeed there was one. It could really serve a purpose in the narrative in getting Harry to understand the big picture.
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Valfunde - Jul 29, 2005 3:33 pm (#1090 of 1858)
University Pre-Health Professions Advisor
Edited by Jul 29, 2005 3:38 pm
Nymphadora Lupin - Oh, that's really interesting! Nice post. I didn't think of that. If there's a J/L/S triangle, Harry will be horrified at first to even think of another man loving his mom (teenagers and kids don't think of their parents in this way do they) and let alone if the other guy is SNAPE! Yikes! Maybe seeing his two best friends working through something like this will help him through.
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Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Jul 30, 2005 12:53 pm (#1091 of 1858)
No day but Today
I don't know about this triangle thing. I would think that Hermione would write to Victor and tell him she is with Ron, so he won't be surprised when he comes to see them. I have a feeling that she has confided her feelings to Victor about Ron before, and that they (H/V)really are just good friends now.
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Ag Hart - Jul 30, 2005 1:16 pm (#1092 of 1858)
When I first mentioned that Krum might return to complicate things (post #84) for Ron and Hermione, I suggested he would return because his school places so much emphasis on learning about the Dark Arts, and he would have more expertise than the average Hogwarts student. I think he might become a valuable asset to the DA whose role may become more important than ever. His presence would lend that dimension of international cooperation that was so important to Dumbledore as well. The H/R/K triangle could provide some comic relief, unless (or until) as I previously suggested, he must make the ultimate sacrifice for Hermione. (Here's hoping it won't be Ron!)
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 30, 2005 2:03 pm (#1093 of 1858)
In re-reading CoS, OotP, and HBP there are some connections between Harry and Ginny that do not exist between the other characters.
First, both Ginny and Harry have been subjected to possession by Voldemort although, the nature and the degree of possession varied ultimately both were unsuccessful.
Second, both have utilized books that caused the dark side of their personalities to come to the surface and dominate their personalities for a period of time before, being reined in.
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timrew - Jul 30, 2005 4:38 pm (#1094 of 1858)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Lupin and Tonks are an item. What will 'their song' be?
1:- Werewolf in London
2:- Bad Moon Rising
3:- Blue Moon
4:- That Old Black Magic
5:- The First Time Ever I Saw Your (Hairy) Face.........
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Saralinda Again - Jul 30, 2005 4:46 pm (#1095 of 1858)
My Patronus is a Crumple-Horn Snorkack
Honky-Tonks Woman
When the Moon's Big and Low and Your Fangs Start to Grow, That's-a-Lupin
If I Was a Lycanthrope and You Were a Lady ...
The Real Slim Shave-Me
Stop me quick somebody ...
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timrew - Jul 30, 2005 4:52 pm (#1096 of 1858)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Stop it, Saralinda, it'll only end in tears!
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Saralinda Again - Jul 30, 2005 4:54 pm (#1097 of 1858)
My Patronus is a Crumple-Horn Snorkack
Heck, if I had a song, it'd be "Tears before bed time."
(sigh)
One last thought: The Beast Years of Our Lives?
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timrew - Jul 30, 2005 5:15 pm (#1098 of 1858)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
LOL, Saralinda! There let it end........
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Paulus Maximus - Jul 30, 2005 7:24 pm (#1099 of 1858)
Is it really a given that the 'ships as of the end of HBP are final? JKR herself said that Neville and Luna were not an item, so it seems rather odd that a good deal of evidence points to that 'ship...
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 30, 2005 8:57 pm (#1100 of 1858)
Paulus, authors can be fickle at time perhaps J.K. Rowling decided that the relationship would tweak Augusta Longbottom's nose.
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Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 1101 to 1150)
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Paulus Maximus - Jul 30, 2005 9:51 pm (#1101 of 1858)
Or perhaps she's tweaking OUR noses...
I still see no incontrovertible evidence that the 'ships at the end of HBP are final. Particularly given that they are all between the ages of 15 and 17...
And given that there will be another book, in which they will be between the ages of 16 and 18...
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Kazius - Jul 30, 2005 11:55 pm (#1102 of 1858)
Skeptic
I'd be willing to bet that at least the ships revolving around Ginny/Harry and Hermione/Ron are final.
Although I have only looked into the Ginny/Harry side of this, I'm sure Hermione/Ron carries the same facet of this, their love potions suggest each other. In Harry's case, he explains his smells which I believe suggest several of his favorites, and one that is alikened to Ginny.
I haven't read HBP recently, (still rereading the books, just finished GoF tonight) but I'd be willing to bet that Hermione's mumbling of what her love potion smell like reflect on things about Ron.
That being said, I've been pondering other matchups we may see. Will Seamus, Dean, Parvati, or any of the other charecters end up with anyone? Although I'm actually rather partial to the Luna/Neville Idea, I don't see it happening, mainly because of what JKR has said, although I find it fitting that two social stragglers who end up united through D.A. and Harry would fall in love.
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Eponine - Jul 31, 2005 6:53 am (#1103 of 1858)
I agree with Kazius about the final relationships involving Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione.
From the Mugglenet/TLC interview with Jo:
On R/Hr:
JKR: I will say, that yes, I personally feel - well it's going to be clear once people have read book six. I mean, that’s it. It’s done, isn’t it? We know. Yes, we do now know that it's Ron and Hermione. I do feel that I have dropped heavy -
[All crack up]
JKR: - hints. ANVIL-sized, actually, hints, prior to this point. I certainly think even if subtle clues hadn't been picked up by the end of “Azkaban,” that by the time we hit Krum in Goblet...
And on H/G:
JKR: Well, no, not really, because the plan was, which I really hope I fulfilled, is that the reader, like Harry, would gradually discover Ginny as pretty much the ideal girl for Harry. She's tough, not in an unpleasant way, but she's gutsy. He needs to be with someone who can stand the demands of being with Harry Potter, because he's a scary boyfriend in a lot of ways. He's a marked man. I think she's funny, and I think that she's very warm and compassionate. These are all things that Harry requires in his ideal woman. But, I felt — and I'm talking years ago when all this was planned — initially, she's terrified by his image. I mean, he's a bit of a rock god to her when she sees him first, at 10 or 11, and he's this famous boy. So Ginny had to go through a journey as well. And rather like with Ron, I didn’t want Ginny to be the first girl that Harry ever kissed. That's something I meant to say, and it's kind of tied in.
Found here and here.
I had been hoping for a long time that HBP would end the ship wars, and it's my opinion that the book combined with the interview has given us our answer.
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Paulus Maximus - Jul 31, 2005 8:34 am (#1104 of 1858)
Very well. Of course I cannot help but take the Neville-Luna 'ship with an ocean of salt.
I'm not entirely sure that the Ron-Hermione 'ship can be considered unsinkable. As far as I know, the Ron-Luna 'ship hasn't sunk yet...
And we don't know what Hermione was about to say about how the love potion smelled to her, other than grass and fresh paper...
I think there is enough incontrovertible evidence that the H/G 'ship can be declared unsinkable, though.
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Star Crossed - Jul 31, 2005 10:02 am (#1105 of 1858)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I think Ron/Hermione can be considered unsinkable. She's been giving clues throughout all these books. She wouldn't have made it so obvious if they weren't going to stay together.
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Eponine - Jul 31, 2005 10:39 am (#1106 of 1858)
Also the fact that she said, 'Yes, we do now know that it's Ron and Hermione' might be a clue.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 31, 2005 12:28 pm (#1107 of 1858)
Eponine, what do you think that clue points to the facct that Ron and Hermione might survive through book 7.
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David Olson - Jul 31, 2005 12:41 pm (#1108 of 1858)
On Hermione's smells, recall that on his first ride to Hogwarts he had a corned beef sandwich, which his mom made always, despite the fact that he didn't really like them.
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Eponine - Jul 31, 2005 1:10 pm (#1109 of 1858)
They might not survive, but it's my opinion that her statements point to the two of them not being involved with anyone else but each other.
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Hermonie's Secret - Jul 31, 2005 8:46 pm (#1110 of 1858)
It is possible that Ginny is using a love potion to attract Harry's interest. If so, will her fate be similar to Voldemort's mum?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 31, 2005 8:54 pm (#1111 of 1858)
Edited Jul 31, 2005 9:58 pm
Hermione's Secret, I doubt that Ginny Weasley would consider using such methods. for three reasons: First, such a tactic would be strongly disapproved of by Tonks, Hermione, Molly, and Bill whom she looks up to as mentors. Second, I do not believe Arthur and Molly would tolerate that from any of their children. Third, J.K. Rowling seems to have indicated otherwise in her interview with Melissa and Emerson.
JKR: Well, no, not really, because the plan was, which I really hope I fulfilled, is that the reader, like Harry, would gradually discover Ginny as pretty much the ideal girl for Harry. She's tough, not in an unpleasant way, but she's gutsy. He needs to be with someone who can stand the demands of being with Harry Potter, because he's a scary boyfriend in a lot of ways. He's a marked man. I think she's funny, and I think that she's very warm and compassionate. These are all things that Harry requires in his ideal woman. But, I felt — and I'm talking years ago when all this was planned — initially, she's terrified by his image. I mean, he's a bit of a rock god to her when she sees him first, at 10 or 11, and he's this famous boy. So Ginny had to go through a journey as well. And rather like with Ron, I didn't want Ginny to be the first girl that Harry ever kissed. That's something I meant to say, and it's kind of tied in.
One of the ways in which I tried to show that Harry has done a lot of growing up — in “Phoenix,” remember when Cho comes into the compartment, and he thinks, ‘I wish I could have been discovered sitting with better people,’ basically? He's with Luna and Neville. So literally the identical thing happens in “Prince,” and he's with Luna and Neville again, but this time, he has grown up, and as far as he's concerned he is with two of the coolest people on the train. They may not look that cool. Harry has really grown. And I feel that Ginny and Harry, in this book, they are total equals. They are worthy of each other. They've both gone through a big emotional journey, and they've really got over a lot of delusions, to use your word, together. So, I enjoyed writing that. I really like Ginny as a character.
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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 31, 2005 10:02 pm (#1112 of 1858)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Don't forget that you have to add in 'ship prediction is -if he survives.
Today I became unhappily convinced that Ron will not survive. I believe Ron will sacrifice his life in order for Harry to accomplish so end.
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Paulus Maximus - Jul 31, 2005 11:52 pm (#1113 of 1858)
Ron's joke about tea leaves is rather unsettling... I wonder what would happen to Hermione if Ron died? (Assuming that Ron and Hermione actually get together in book 7, which they have yet to do if that 'ship is to play out...)
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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 2, 2005 4:41 am (#1114 of 1858)
In HBP we have Ron and Hermione (no prizes to those who guessed that one) we had Harry and Ginny (again well done but no medal) but Madame Pince and Filch!!!!
Was this a deliberate ploy to get us talking or is there something else?
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Snuffles - Aug 2, 2005 4:54 am (#1115 of 1858)
Olivia
Oh come now Phelim, what woman would be able to resist Argus in that mouldy old tailcoat of his!!!!
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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 2, 2005 9:25 am (#1116 of 1858)
Snuffles - may be Filch has an ability with love potions we don't know about
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 2, 2005 9:33 am (#1117 of 1858)
I doubt that even someone as cantankerous and contrary as Argus goes unloved, I believe that at his core their were people that he cared for and with whom he formed a type of friendship with.
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Snuffles - Aug 2, 2005 12:46 pm (#1118 of 1858)
Olivia
That could be true Phelim, after all he was taking a qwik spell course, so who knows.....
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Hermonie's Secret - Aug 3, 2005 6:35 am (#1119 of 1858)
Interesting thought, maybe the smells he detected in Sluggy's office are Ginny's smells and not the other way around. However, I see Ginny as a girl who knows what she wants and knows that this would be the best thing for Harry whether he knows it yet or not. In addition to the fact the she is in the slug club and Sluggy wouldn't care if two of his clubbers became associated this way - he is not exactly a moral icon. Don't get me wrong, I really like Ginny myself. She is intellegent and smart and does what she wants. All qualities I admire.
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Dattatreya Thalasseri - Aug 5, 2005 7:27 pm (#1120 of 1858)
I hope that Ship H/G sinks with a lead filled hold. The pairing came and slapped me across the face when I was reading...really, Harry sees the two kissing and even though he's probably seen her kissing her other boyfriends before he is seized with a fit of Jelousy? Did not compute in my book. I hope that Harry's message gets through to her, she really should not be coming along on the trip, any lingering feelings might stand in the way of his judgement. He would do something foolish and she might end up dead. I actually like them both as characters, just not together.
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M A Grimmett - Aug 6, 2005 11:39 am (#1121 of 1858)
Harry's matured a lot. I think a symptom of this is his realization that Ginny is his ideal woman.
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Liz Mann - Aug 6, 2005 1:00 pm (#1122 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I think that J.K. created Ginny for the purpose of putting her with Harry, just like she created Dumbledore for the purpose of Harry having a mentor. In which case we must surely see more of their relationship (I hope!). And no, I don't think he has seen her kissing other boyfriends before, not that we know of anyway. And he had started to notice her before that, like with the perfume thing in Potions. I loved that hint!
I agree M A Grimmett, Ginny is his ideal woman. She has many of the same character traits as him and many of the same flaws. She's pretty, but not like Veela-standard. A lot of boys notice her but they don't gawk or anything. She's got the same fiery temper as Harry, and by the looks of it is just as likely to hex when annoyed. But she's also brave, cunning and determined, and stubbon (which may be a good thing or a bad thing).
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Sparrowhawk - Aug 6, 2005 4:14 pm (#1123 of 1858)
As a matter of fact, JKR has often hinted at the H/G partnership, it doesn't come out of the blue... and the jealousy comes after spending summertime together at the Burrow, therefore one can's say that Harry has just been seized by a sudden fit of jealousy without any explanation as to the reasons why his feelings have changed.
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Sticky Glue - Aug 6, 2005 5:41 pm (#1124 of 1858)
I also think that JKR has been hinting at a H/G ship through all the books.
I really like Ginny as a character in the books, and think she will be ideal for him, what I have to get rid of each time I read the books is the movie contamination of Ginny.
I don't think the movies show her character well at all.
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Puck - Aug 6, 2005 7:32 pm (#1125 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Well, we have only seen three movies, and the books didn't show her true nature until OotP. I mean, we new she had a good heart, but she was tongue tied all the time.
I realized in book 5 she was a good match for Harry. And there are many subtle clues early on in HBP that Harry is feeling differently toward her. He feels annoyed that she doesn't sit with him on the train, or come to Hogsmead with them. His thoughts drift to whether she is at the tea house with Dean. He notices her long red hair swaying. The site of her kissing Dean is just what brings it home for him.
The only ones that surprised me were the short-lived romance with Ron and Lavender, and the Lupin and Tonks thing. (Though I am happy about the latter, as Lupin derserves love more than any!)
The pairings, I suspect, will be part of the whole "Love is powerful" theme.
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Finn BV - Aug 6, 2005 7:38 pm (#1126 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
… and the books didn't show her true nature until OotP. --Puck
I would argue that I saw the true Ginny in GoF when she accepted Neville's invitation to the Yule Ball. Of course, she wanted the experience too, but that fact that she had enough heart to go with "Longbottom" was quite a shock, and the little 11-year-old Ginny transformed into a very mature Ginny, for me.
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Puck - Aug 6, 2005 7:48 pm (#1127 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Yes, we saw her good heart, her kind nature, but her spirit -that fire- we didn't see that until the 5th book.
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Eponine - Aug 6, 2005 8:03 pm (#1128 of 1858)
I'd say we saw a bit of her true nature when she stood up to Malfoy in Cos.
'Leave him alone, he didn't want all that!' CoS, UK Paperback p. 50.
I do agree that her spirit wasn't fully revealed until OotP though, despite the glimpses we were given before.
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MWPP - Aug 17, 2005 9:10 pm (#1129 of 1858)
First of all, I agree that Ginny's character wasn't really fleshed-out before OotP, which is one reason that I didn't quite feel as happy with her and Harry as I did with Ron and Hermione. I think R/Hr had been foreshadowed through the entire series, while H/G was perhaps in CoS, but didn't come back until OotP and not strongly until HBP.
Also, going back to something said much earlier, I think that Harry's reaction to a possible Snape/Lily relationship would be hilarious! Though I do agree that Snape/Narcissa looked pretty good during chapter 2.
Finally, I was delighted with Lupin/Tonks, I had been hoping for Lupin to get a girlfriend, but I expected it to be a new character. I like Tonks, though, and the only problem I have is that her character hasn't been developed as much as Lupins, hopefully we'll see much more of her/them in book 7.
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Doris Crockford - Aug 18, 2005 8:58 am (#1130 of 1858)
I admit, I was really surprised about Tonks and Lupin. I didn't remember anything about that seemed as obvious to me as Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione in HBP. But then again, not much in Harry Potter is obvious at all to me (especially Madam Pince/Filch ). So I looked for anything that would hint to her liking him. So I'll tell you what I found, for those of you who thought it was just as out-of-the-blue as I did. I (quickly) looked back at OoP and noticed that Tonks was more clumsy when Lupin was around- like when the Advanced Guard got to Privet Drive and she knocked over the plate, when she knocked over the troll's leg umbrella stand after she, Lupin and Molly locked the door to Grimmauld Place when the Order left after Snape's report, etc- but was less clumsy when he wasn't around- when Moody was with them and they went to St. Mungo's. Anyway, I bet you're all wondering how that is specifically related to her liking Lupin. Well, in HBP, Fleur remarks to Ron that he's just as bad as Tonks when he knocks over the gravy trying to pass it to her at Christmas dinner. So I figured that JKR was hinting "This is how you know Tonks likes someone", and noticed she was mostly clumsy around Lupin.
Oh, and I noticed at the end of OoP, when some of the Order meets Harry at the train station, I noticed that Lupin finishes Tonks' sentence (well, sort of, since Arthur and Mad-Eye also finish her thought).
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Saralinda Again - Aug 18, 2005 9:17 am (#1131 of 1858)
My Patronus is a Crumple-Horn Snorkack
Thank you, Doris Crockford, for doing the digging! You're probably right; JKR was setting us up.
Some of us who just sort of "felt" that it was right probably picked up on those hints subliminally, but couldn't figure out where the feeling came from.
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total hatred01 - Aug 22, 2005 11:22 pm (#1132 of 1858)
I still believe that the H/G and R/Hr can still be sunk. I have seen the arguments but still it is still uncertain if the ship will sucessfuly sail. Like the Titanic which many believed will not sink but look what happened. The arguments might be strong on the surface but if you look closely, it has barely noiceable defects. For example, the R/Hr ship. Let us assume that Hr loves R. Do you think Hr will continue to love R if he continues to be mean to her? Love is a two way relationship. Hermione is no martyr and if Ron continues to act like a jerk. The ship is bound to its watery grave. Another big factor is the overinflatation of Ron's ego over little sucess. It understand to bashful sometimes but from what Ron is acting, he thinks he is the best there is. He had become so arrogant, far much arrogant to Draco. An fly on elephant's back, thinking he is big because he is standing on the elephant.
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haymoni - Aug 23, 2005 5:31 am (#1133 of 1858)
I think Ron & Hermione can finally relax and just date each other.
The pressure of who likes whom is off. They've been through yet another horrible experience together. They have a lot to offer each other.
Ron doesn't need to be a jerk anymore (about Hermione anyway!) and Hermione is certainly capable of taking him down a peg or two. Ron will make sure that she is more than just a bookworm.
Still, lots of great relationships still manage to sink.
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Liz Mann - Aug 23, 2005 11:08 am (#1134 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Ron is more mature now than he was. J.K. said that in the interview with Emerson and Melissa. The point of the Ron/Lavender relationship was to make him more mature by making him realise it's not all about the physical stuff, thereby making him more conscious of emotions and feelings. Ron and Hermione fight so much because they're opposites. But, of course, opposites attract. Besides, you're always mean to the ones you love. I think if their constant bickering was going to be an issue, it would have stopped them from liking each other in the first place. They fell for each other despite that so I don't see that it can ruin their relationship. Not that they're actually in a relationship at this point, but soon, hopefully.
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Herm oh ninny - Aug 23, 2005 11:14 am (#1135 of 1858)
"Accio treats!"
Total hatrid - I think the best argument that the H/G and R/H will in fact sail is that Jo has confirmed it herself :
ES: We thought it was clearer than ever that Harry and Ginny are an item and Ron and Hermione — although we think you made it painfully obvious in the first five books —
JKR: [points to herself and whispers] So do I!
ES: What was that?
JKR: [More loudly] Well so do I! So do I!
[All laugh; Melissa doubles over, hysterical, and may have died.]
ES: Harry/Hermione shippers - delusional!
JKR: Well no, I'm not going to - Emerson, I am not going to say they're delusional! They are still valued members of my readership! I am not going to use the word delusional. I am however, going to say — now I am trusting both of you to do the spoiler thing when you write this up —
[More laughter.]
JKR: I will say, that yes, I personally feel - well it's going to be clear once people have read book six. I mean, that’s it. It’s done, isn’t it? We know. Yes, we do now know that it's Ron and Hermione. I do feel that I have dropped heavy - (MuggleNet/Leaky Cauldron Interview)
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Puck - Aug 23, 2005 1:45 pm (#1136 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Personally I think the reason Ron and Hermione bickered so much is because neither was able to admit their true feelings. Once things are all out in the open I believe that they will get along well and argue a bit less.
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Sparrowhawk - Aug 23, 2005 2:12 pm (#1137 of 1858)
To me, it looked as if Hermione was pretty well aware of her own feelings towards Ron, but exasperated by his immature behaviour...
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ema fewett - Aug 28, 2005 6:01 pm (#1138 of 1858)
Liz.....I think your post in more than well said!
I'm almost positive that Harry will still like Ginny in book 7. My only worry is that they wont go on his "journey" together. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Ginny will join him, Ron, and Hermione, in finding the horcruxes.
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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 29, 2005 7:49 am (#1139 of 1858)
Ginny is only fifteen though. She will be sixteen a few months into book 7, but if Rowling follows the same one year pattern she has for the rest of the books then Ginny will not come of age before the series ends. I highly doubt that Arthur and Molly would allow Ginny to join the seventeen-year-olds on their quest for Horcruxes.
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Saralinda Again - Aug 29, 2005 8:33 am (#1140 of 1858)
My Patronus is a Crumple-Horn Snorkack
Mrs. Brisbee: I highly doubt that Arthur and Molly would allow Ginny to join the seventeen-year-olds on their quest for Horcruxes.
Heh. I'd like to see them stop that girl, when the path before her includes righting wrongs, avenging Dumbledore, saving the world, and fighting beside her main squeeze.
If it were my daughter (who's easily as gifted and headstrong as Ginny), I'd spend half my time arguing that she should stay back, and the other half fussing about the things she needed to do to protect herself if she did follow her instincts.
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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 29, 2005 10:44 am (#1141 of 1858)
If I was Harry and Ginny I'd be more worried about Molly coming along to "protect" her daughter and unofficial son. One dangerous gooseberry.
But actually let Molly and Ginny loose together if someone tries to harm Harry. Major problem to the attacker of Mr Potter. Better watch out Snape.
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Liz Mann - Aug 29, 2005 1:28 pm (#1142 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I don't think Molly and Arthur will let Ginny. Yes she'll put up a really big fight and temper tantrums will ensure, but she is still underage and her parents have the right to stop her. And besides that, Harry and Ron would never let her come - Ron because she's his sister and he cares about her too much, Harry because he loves her and so cares about her too much.
I do, however, think that Ginny will be involved in the final battle, partly because I think it will take place at Hogwarts.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 31, 2005 1:27 pm (#1143 of 1858)
There is a new essay on the Lexicon concerning the subject of ships. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Liz Mann - Aug 31, 2005 2:45 pm (#1144 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I don't think the Harry/Ginny relationship is giving out the message that "if you pine over a boy long enough he'll eventually love you". I think it's giving out the message that you don't deserve a person if you don't like them for who they are. Ginny, initially, was infatuated by the 'celebtrity' Harry, The Boy Who Lived. She got over that and because she did she got to know Harry as a person and now she likes the 'person' Harry. And at the same time, once she'd started talking around him, Harry got to like her back. Therefore pining didn't get her anywhere, and once she stopped pining she got what she wanted.
Also, Harry and Ginny did have a friendship of sorts for a while in OotP. She helped him get into Umbridge's office, they talked alone several times during which she made him feel better, she made him see sense about his behaviour at Privet Drive during the Christmas break and she went with him to the Department of Mysteries.
And I don't think Ginny will betray them. I don't see any comparison between Ginny and Peter. As far as we know Peter betrayed James and Lily because he was a coward. Ginny is not a coward.
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Maddest Dragon - Aug 31, 2005 3:21 pm (#1145 of 1858)
If Harry and his friends are parallels with Harry's parents and their circle (which I doubt; they're a new generation, new pattern), then Ginny would compare with Lily. I even see an early marriage between her and Harry as a distinct possiblity, though it probably won't happen during the series. If any of Harry's friends does betray them, it will probably be inadvertent: someone tells a secret to the wrong person because they believe it's the right thing to do.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 31, 2005 3:49 pm (#1146 of 1858)
Liz, I agree I do not see Ginny in the light painted in that essay. As to the subject of ginny betraying the trio, I think there little to no possibility of that occurring because, Ginny is the polar opposite of Pettigrew she is courageous and an adept witch in her own right. It is far more likely that sheould follow Sirius maxim from PoA when he says I would have died rather than betray my friends. I think that Ginny would follow that advice and give up her life rather than betray her friends.
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ema fewett - Aug 31, 2005 5:29 pm (#1147 of 1858)
Here here! to all the above four or five posts! I completely agree that Ginny is the polar opposite of Peter....she would never betray the trio.....atleast not intentionally.
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TangledWeb - Aug 31, 2005 9:42 pm (#1148 of 1858)
I like what is mentioned in that essay about parallels between the trio, and while Ginny and Peter were both the fourth wheel so to speak, as JKR has emphasized in the books, it is your actions that really represent the true person that you are.
Harry could have been put in Slytherin, but he told the Sorting Hat to be put in Gryffindor. Same with Ginny...she could have continued to be the fourth wheel and perhaps let the resentment and hatred build up inside of her, or she could pursue her own friends and her own life, and be the better for it.
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timrew - Sep 1, 2005 3:14 pm (#1149 of 1858)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Ah, you can't keep the H/H shippers down, can you?
Like most people have said, Ginny has twenty times the character of Pettigrew and would never betray the trio in a million years.
I'm afraid it's a H/G ship all the way...........
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Finn BV - Sep 1, 2005 3:38 pm (#1150 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
I understand how the author of the essay considers Ginny the counterpart of Pettigrew. It is simply because he joined along the expeditions at times but was not among the "inner circle" – James and Sirius were best friends, and then James and Sirius expanded to let Remus in, and Wormtail was sort of… there. It's slightly different now, but I think the author's point is very reasonable. The point they fail to mention is that they don't feel Ginny has the same qualities as Wormtail, just that in comparison of the two generations, she fits in as that. Does that make sense?
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Or perhaps she's tweaking OUR noses...
I still see no incontrovertible evidence that the 'ships at the end of HBP are final. Particularly given that they are all between the ages of 15 and 17...
And given that there will be another book, in which they will be between the ages of 16 and 18...
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Kazius - Jul 30, 2005 11:55 pm (#1102 of 1858)
Skeptic
I'd be willing to bet that at least the ships revolving around Ginny/Harry and Hermione/Ron are final.
Although I have only looked into the Ginny/Harry side of this, I'm sure Hermione/Ron carries the same facet of this, their love potions suggest each other. In Harry's case, he explains his smells which I believe suggest several of his favorites, and one that is alikened to Ginny.
I haven't read HBP recently, (still rereading the books, just finished GoF tonight) but I'd be willing to bet that Hermione's mumbling of what her love potion smell like reflect on things about Ron.
That being said, I've been pondering other matchups we may see. Will Seamus, Dean, Parvati, or any of the other charecters end up with anyone? Although I'm actually rather partial to the Luna/Neville Idea, I don't see it happening, mainly because of what JKR has said, although I find it fitting that two social stragglers who end up united through D.A. and Harry would fall in love.
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Eponine - Jul 31, 2005 6:53 am (#1103 of 1858)
I agree with Kazius about the final relationships involving Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione.
From the Mugglenet/TLC interview with Jo:
On R/Hr:
JKR: I will say, that yes, I personally feel - well it's going to be clear once people have read book six. I mean, that’s it. It’s done, isn’t it? We know. Yes, we do now know that it's Ron and Hermione. I do feel that I have dropped heavy -
[All crack up]
JKR: - hints. ANVIL-sized, actually, hints, prior to this point. I certainly think even if subtle clues hadn't been picked up by the end of “Azkaban,” that by the time we hit Krum in Goblet...
And on H/G:
JKR: Well, no, not really, because the plan was, which I really hope I fulfilled, is that the reader, like Harry, would gradually discover Ginny as pretty much the ideal girl for Harry. She's tough, not in an unpleasant way, but she's gutsy. He needs to be with someone who can stand the demands of being with Harry Potter, because he's a scary boyfriend in a lot of ways. He's a marked man. I think she's funny, and I think that she's very warm and compassionate. These are all things that Harry requires in his ideal woman. But, I felt — and I'm talking years ago when all this was planned — initially, she's terrified by his image. I mean, he's a bit of a rock god to her when she sees him first, at 10 or 11, and he's this famous boy. So Ginny had to go through a journey as well. And rather like with Ron, I didn’t want Ginny to be the first girl that Harry ever kissed. That's something I meant to say, and it's kind of tied in.
Found here and here.
I had been hoping for a long time that HBP would end the ship wars, and it's my opinion that the book combined with the interview has given us our answer.
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Paulus Maximus - Jul 31, 2005 8:34 am (#1104 of 1858)
Very well. Of course I cannot help but take the Neville-Luna 'ship with an ocean of salt.
I'm not entirely sure that the Ron-Hermione 'ship can be considered unsinkable. As far as I know, the Ron-Luna 'ship hasn't sunk yet...
And we don't know what Hermione was about to say about how the love potion smelled to her, other than grass and fresh paper...
I think there is enough incontrovertible evidence that the H/G 'ship can be declared unsinkable, though.
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Star Crossed - Jul 31, 2005 10:02 am (#1105 of 1858)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I think Ron/Hermione can be considered unsinkable. She's been giving clues throughout all these books. She wouldn't have made it so obvious if they weren't going to stay together.
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Eponine - Jul 31, 2005 10:39 am (#1106 of 1858)
Also the fact that she said, 'Yes, we do now know that it's Ron and Hermione' might be a clue.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 31, 2005 12:28 pm (#1107 of 1858)
Eponine, what do you think that clue points to the facct that Ron and Hermione might survive through book 7.
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David Olson - Jul 31, 2005 12:41 pm (#1108 of 1858)
On Hermione's smells, recall that on his first ride to Hogwarts he had a corned beef sandwich, which his mom made always, despite the fact that he didn't really like them.
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Eponine - Jul 31, 2005 1:10 pm (#1109 of 1858)
They might not survive, but it's my opinion that her statements point to the two of them not being involved with anyone else but each other.
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Hermonie's Secret - Jul 31, 2005 8:46 pm (#1110 of 1858)
It is possible that Ginny is using a love potion to attract Harry's interest. If so, will her fate be similar to Voldemort's mum?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 31, 2005 8:54 pm (#1111 of 1858)
Edited Jul 31, 2005 9:58 pm
Hermione's Secret, I doubt that Ginny Weasley would consider using such methods. for three reasons: First, such a tactic would be strongly disapproved of by Tonks, Hermione, Molly, and Bill whom she looks up to as mentors. Second, I do not believe Arthur and Molly would tolerate that from any of their children. Third, J.K. Rowling seems to have indicated otherwise in her interview with Melissa and Emerson.
JKR: Well, no, not really, because the plan was, which I really hope I fulfilled, is that the reader, like Harry, would gradually discover Ginny as pretty much the ideal girl for Harry. She's tough, not in an unpleasant way, but she's gutsy. He needs to be with someone who can stand the demands of being with Harry Potter, because he's a scary boyfriend in a lot of ways. He's a marked man. I think she's funny, and I think that she's very warm and compassionate. These are all things that Harry requires in his ideal woman. But, I felt — and I'm talking years ago when all this was planned — initially, she's terrified by his image. I mean, he's a bit of a rock god to her when she sees him first, at 10 or 11, and he's this famous boy. So Ginny had to go through a journey as well. And rather like with Ron, I didn't want Ginny to be the first girl that Harry ever kissed. That's something I meant to say, and it's kind of tied in.
One of the ways in which I tried to show that Harry has done a lot of growing up — in “Phoenix,” remember when Cho comes into the compartment, and he thinks, ‘I wish I could have been discovered sitting with better people,’ basically? He's with Luna and Neville. So literally the identical thing happens in “Prince,” and he's with Luna and Neville again, but this time, he has grown up, and as far as he's concerned he is with two of the coolest people on the train. They may not look that cool. Harry has really grown. And I feel that Ginny and Harry, in this book, they are total equals. They are worthy of each other. They've both gone through a big emotional journey, and they've really got over a lot of delusions, to use your word, together. So, I enjoyed writing that. I really like Ginny as a character.
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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 31, 2005 10:02 pm (#1112 of 1858)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Don't forget that you have to add in 'ship prediction is -if he survives.
Today I became unhappily convinced that Ron will not survive. I believe Ron will sacrifice his life in order for Harry to accomplish so end.
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Paulus Maximus - Jul 31, 2005 11:52 pm (#1113 of 1858)
Ron's joke about tea leaves is rather unsettling... I wonder what would happen to Hermione if Ron died? (Assuming that Ron and Hermione actually get together in book 7, which they have yet to do if that 'ship is to play out...)
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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 2, 2005 4:41 am (#1114 of 1858)
In HBP we have Ron and Hermione (no prizes to those who guessed that one) we had Harry and Ginny (again well done but no medal) but Madame Pince and Filch!!!!
Was this a deliberate ploy to get us talking or is there something else?
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Snuffles - Aug 2, 2005 4:54 am (#1115 of 1858)
Olivia
Oh come now Phelim, what woman would be able to resist Argus in that mouldy old tailcoat of his!!!!
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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 2, 2005 9:25 am (#1116 of 1858)
Snuffles - may be Filch has an ability with love potions we don't know about
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 2, 2005 9:33 am (#1117 of 1858)
I doubt that even someone as cantankerous and contrary as Argus goes unloved, I believe that at his core their were people that he cared for and with whom he formed a type of friendship with.
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Snuffles - Aug 2, 2005 12:46 pm (#1118 of 1858)
Olivia
That could be true Phelim, after all he was taking a qwik spell course, so who knows.....
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Hermonie's Secret - Aug 3, 2005 6:35 am (#1119 of 1858)
Interesting thought, maybe the smells he detected in Sluggy's office are Ginny's smells and not the other way around. However, I see Ginny as a girl who knows what she wants and knows that this would be the best thing for Harry whether he knows it yet or not. In addition to the fact the she is in the slug club and Sluggy wouldn't care if two of his clubbers became associated this way - he is not exactly a moral icon. Don't get me wrong, I really like Ginny myself. She is intellegent and smart and does what she wants. All qualities I admire.
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Dattatreya Thalasseri - Aug 5, 2005 7:27 pm (#1120 of 1858)
I hope that Ship H/G sinks with a lead filled hold. The pairing came and slapped me across the face when I was reading...really, Harry sees the two kissing and even though he's probably seen her kissing her other boyfriends before he is seized with a fit of Jelousy? Did not compute in my book. I hope that Harry's message gets through to her, she really should not be coming along on the trip, any lingering feelings might stand in the way of his judgement. He would do something foolish and she might end up dead. I actually like them both as characters, just not together.
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M A Grimmett - Aug 6, 2005 11:39 am (#1121 of 1858)
Harry's matured a lot. I think a symptom of this is his realization that Ginny is his ideal woman.
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Liz Mann - Aug 6, 2005 1:00 pm (#1122 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I think that J.K. created Ginny for the purpose of putting her with Harry, just like she created Dumbledore for the purpose of Harry having a mentor. In which case we must surely see more of their relationship (I hope!). And no, I don't think he has seen her kissing other boyfriends before, not that we know of anyway. And he had started to notice her before that, like with the perfume thing in Potions. I loved that hint!
I agree M A Grimmett, Ginny is his ideal woman. She has many of the same character traits as him and many of the same flaws. She's pretty, but not like Veela-standard. A lot of boys notice her but they don't gawk or anything. She's got the same fiery temper as Harry, and by the looks of it is just as likely to hex when annoyed. But she's also brave, cunning and determined, and stubbon (which may be a good thing or a bad thing).
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Sparrowhawk - Aug 6, 2005 4:14 pm (#1123 of 1858)
As a matter of fact, JKR has often hinted at the H/G partnership, it doesn't come out of the blue... and the jealousy comes after spending summertime together at the Burrow, therefore one can's say that Harry has just been seized by a sudden fit of jealousy without any explanation as to the reasons why his feelings have changed.
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Sticky Glue - Aug 6, 2005 5:41 pm (#1124 of 1858)
I also think that JKR has been hinting at a H/G ship through all the books.
I really like Ginny as a character in the books, and think she will be ideal for him, what I have to get rid of each time I read the books is the movie contamination of Ginny.
I don't think the movies show her character well at all.
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Puck - Aug 6, 2005 7:32 pm (#1125 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Well, we have only seen three movies, and the books didn't show her true nature until OotP. I mean, we new she had a good heart, but she was tongue tied all the time.
I realized in book 5 she was a good match for Harry. And there are many subtle clues early on in HBP that Harry is feeling differently toward her. He feels annoyed that she doesn't sit with him on the train, or come to Hogsmead with them. His thoughts drift to whether she is at the tea house with Dean. He notices her long red hair swaying. The site of her kissing Dean is just what brings it home for him.
The only ones that surprised me were the short-lived romance with Ron and Lavender, and the Lupin and Tonks thing. (Though I am happy about the latter, as Lupin derserves love more than any!)
The pairings, I suspect, will be part of the whole "Love is powerful" theme.
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Finn BV - Aug 6, 2005 7:38 pm (#1126 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
… and the books didn't show her true nature until OotP. --Puck
I would argue that I saw the true Ginny in GoF when she accepted Neville's invitation to the Yule Ball. Of course, she wanted the experience too, but that fact that she had enough heart to go with "Longbottom" was quite a shock, and the little 11-year-old Ginny transformed into a very mature Ginny, for me.
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Puck - Aug 6, 2005 7:48 pm (#1127 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Yes, we saw her good heart, her kind nature, but her spirit -that fire- we didn't see that until the 5th book.
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Eponine - Aug 6, 2005 8:03 pm (#1128 of 1858)
I'd say we saw a bit of her true nature when she stood up to Malfoy in Cos.
'Leave him alone, he didn't want all that!' CoS, UK Paperback p. 50.
I do agree that her spirit wasn't fully revealed until OotP though, despite the glimpses we were given before.
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MWPP - Aug 17, 2005 9:10 pm (#1129 of 1858)
First of all, I agree that Ginny's character wasn't really fleshed-out before OotP, which is one reason that I didn't quite feel as happy with her and Harry as I did with Ron and Hermione. I think R/Hr had been foreshadowed through the entire series, while H/G was perhaps in CoS, but didn't come back until OotP and not strongly until HBP.
Also, going back to something said much earlier, I think that Harry's reaction to a possible Snape/Lily relationship would be hilarious! Though I do agree that Snape/Narcissa looked pretty good during chapter 2.
Finally, I was delighted with Lupin/Tonks, I had been hoping for Lupin to get a girlfriend, but I expected it to be a new character. I like Tonks, though, and the only problem I have is that her character hasn't been developed as much as Lupins, hopefully we'll see much more of her/them in book 7.
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Doris Crockford - Aug 18, 2005 8:58 am (#1130 of 1858)
I admit, I was really surprised about Tonks and Lupin. I didn't remember anything about that seemed as obvious to me as Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione in HBP. But then again, not much in Harry Potter is obvious at all to me (especially Madam Pince/Filch ). So I looked for anything that would hint to her liking him. So I'll tell you what I found, for those of you who thought it was just as out-of-the-blue as I did. I (quickly) looked back at OoP and noticed that Tonks was more clumsy when Lupin was around- like when the Advanced Guard got to Privet Drive and she knocked over the plate, when she knocked over the troll's leg umbrella stand after she, Lupin and Molly locked the door to Grimmauld Place when the Order left after Snape's report, etc- but was less clumsy when he wasn't around- when Moody was with them and they went to St. Mungo's. Anyway, I bet you're all wondering how that is specifically related to her liking Lupin. Well, in HBP, Fleur remarks to Ron that he's just as bad as Tonks when he knocks over the gravy trying to pass it to her at Christmas dinner. So I figured that JKR was hinting "This is how you know Tonks likes someone", and noticed she was mostly clumsy around Lupin.
Oh, and I noticed at the end of OoP, when some of the Order meets Harry at the train station, I noticed that Lupin finishes Tonks' sentence (well, sort of, since Arthur and Mad-Eye also finish her thought).
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Saralinda Again - Aug 18, 2005 9:17 am (#1131 of 1858)
My Patronus is a Crumple-Horn Snorkack
Thank you, Doris Crockford, for doing the digging! You're probably right; JKR was setting us up.
Some of us who just sort of "felt" that it was right probably picked up on those hints subliminally, but couldn't figure out where the feeling came from.
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total hatred01 - Aug 22, 2005 11:22 pm (#1132 of 1858)
I still believe that the H/G and R/Hr can still be sunk. I have seen the arguments but still it is still uncertain if the ship will sucessfuly sail. Like the Titanic which many believed will not sink but look what happened. The arguments might be strong on the surface but if you look closely, it has barely noiceable defects. For example, the R/Hr ship. Let us assume that Hr loves R. Do you think Hr will continue to love R if he continues to be mean to her? Love is a two way relationship. Hermione is no martyr and if Ron continues to act like a jerk. The ship is bound to its watery grave. Another big factor is the overinflatation of Ron's ego over little sucess. It understand to bashful sometimes but from what Ron is acting, he thinks he is the best there is. He had become so arrogant, far much arrogant to Draco. An fly on elephant's back, thinking he is big because he is standing on the elephant.
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haymoni - Aug 23, 2005 5:31 am (#1133 of 1858)
I think Ron & Hermione can finally relax and just date each other.
The pressure of who likes whom is off. They've been through yet another horrible experience together. They have a lot to offer each other.
Ron doesn't need to be a jerk anymore (about Hermione anyway!) and Hermione is certainly capable of taking him down a peg or two. Ron will make sure that she is more than just a bookworm.
Still, lots of great relationships still manage to sink.
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Liz Mann - Aug 23, 2005 11:08 am (#1134 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Ron is more mature now than he was. J.K. said that in the interview with Emerson and Melissa. The point of the Ron/Lavender relationship was to make him more mature by making him realise it's not all about the physical stuff, thereby making him more conscious of emotions and feelings. Ron and Hermione fight so much because they're opposites. But, of course, opposites attract. Besides, you're always mean to the ones you love. I think if their constant bickering was going to be an issue, it would have stopped them from liking each other in the first place. They fell for each other despite that so I don't see that it can ruin their relationship. Not that they're actually in a relationship at this point, but soon, hopefully.
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Herm oh ninny - Aug 23, 2005 11:14 am (#1135 of 1858)
"Accio treats!"
Total hatrid - I think the best argument that the H/G and R/H will in fact sail is that Jo has confirmed it herself :
ES: We thought it was clearer than ever that Harry and Ginny are an item and Ron and Hermione — although we think you made it painfully obvious in the first five books —
JKR: [points to herself and whispers] So do I!
ES: What was that?
JKR: [More loudly] Well so do I! So do I!
[All laugh; Melissa doubles over, hysterical, and may have died.]
ES: Harry/Hermione shippers - delusional!
JKR: Well no, I'm not going to - Emerson, I am not going to say they're delusional! They are still valued members of my readership! I am not going to use the word delusional. I am however, going to say — now I am trusting both of you to do the spoiler thing when you write this up —
[More laughter.]
JKR: I will say, that yes, I personally feel - well it's going to be clear once people have read book six. I mean, that’s it. It’s done, isn’t it? We know. Yes, we do now know that it's Ron and Hermione. I do feel that I have dropped heavy - (MuggleNet/Leaky Cauldron Interview)
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Puck - Aug 23, 2005 1:45 pm (#1136 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Personally I think the reason Ron and Hermione bickered so much is because neither was able to admit their true feelings. Once things are all out in the open I believe that they will get along well and argue a bit less.
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Sparrowhawk - Aug 23, 2005 2:12 pm (#1137 of 1858)
To me, it looked as if Hermione was pretty well aware of her own feelings towards Ron, but exasperated by his immature behaviour...
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ema fewett - Aug 28, 2005 6:01 pm (#1138 of 1858)
Liz.....I think your post in more than well said!
I'm almost positive that Harry will still like Ginny in book 7. My only worry is that they wont go on his "journey" together. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Ginny will join him, Ron, and Hermione, in finding the horcruxes.
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Mrs Brisbee - Aug 29, 2005 7:49 am (#1139 of 1858)
Ginny is only fifteen though. She will be sixteen a few months into book 7, but if Rowling follows the same one year pattern she has for the rest of the books then Ginny will not come of age before the series ends. I highly doubt that Arthur and Molly would allow Ginny to join the seventeen-year-olds on their quest for Horcruxes.
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Saralinda Again - Aug 29, 2005 8:33 am (#1140 of 1858)
My Patronus is a Crumple-Horn Snorkack
Mrs. Brisbee: I highly doubt that Arthur and Molly would allow Ginny to join the seventeen-year-olds on their quest for Horcruxes.
Heh. I'd like to see them stop that girl, when the path before her includes righting wrongs, avenging Dumbledore, saving the world, and fighting beside her main squeeze.
If it were my daughter (who's easily as gifted and headstrong as Ginny), I'd spend half my time arguing that she should stay back, and the other half fussing about the things she needed to do to protect herself if she did follow her instincts.
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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 29, 2005 10:44 am (#1141 of 1858)
If I was Harry and Ginny I'd be more worried about Molly coming along to "protect" her daughter and unofficial son. One dangerous gooseberry.
But actually let Molly and Ginny loose together if someone tries to harm Harry. Major problem to the attacker of Mr Potter. Better watch out Snape.
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Liz Mann - Aug 29, 2005 1:28 pm (#1142 of 1858)
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I don't think Molly and Arthur will let Ginny. Yes she'll put up a really big fight and temper tantrums will ensure, but she is still underage and her parents have the right to stop her. And besides that, Harry and Ron would never let her come - Ron because she's his sister and he cares about her too much, Harry because he loves her and so cares about her too much.
I do, however, think that Ginny will be involved in the final battle, partly because I think it will take place at Hogwarts.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 31, 2005 1:27 pm (#1143 of 1858)
There is a new essay on the Lexicon concerning the subject of ships. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Liz Mann - Aug 31, 2005 2:45 pm (#1144 of 1858)
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I don't think the Harry/Ginny relationship is giving out the message that "if you pine over a boy long enough he'll eventually love you". I think it's giving out the message that you don't deserve a person if you don't like them for who they are. Ginny, initially, was infatuated by the 'celebtrity' Harry, The Boy Who Lived. She got over that and because she did she got to know Harry as a person and now she likes the 'person' Harry. And at the same time, once she'd started talking around him, Harry got to like her back. Therefore pining didn't get her anywhere, and once she stopped pining she got what she wanted.
Also, Harry and Ginny did have a friendship of sorts for a while in OotP. She helped him get into Umbridge's office, they talked alone several times during which she made him feel better, she made him see sense about his behaviour at Privet Drive during the Christmas break and she went with him to the Department of Mysteries.
And I don't think Ginny will betray them. I don't see any comparison between Ginny and Peter. As far as we know Peter betrayed James and Lily because he was a coward. Ginny is not a coward.
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Maddest Dragon - Aug 31, 2005 3:21 pm (#1145 of 1858)
If Harry and his friends are parallels with Harry's parents and their circle (which I doubt; they're a new generation, new pattern), then Ginny would compare with Lily. I even see an early marriage between her and Harry as a distinct possiblity, though it probably won't happen during the series. If any of Harry's friends does betray them, it will probably be inadvertent: someone tells a secret to the wrong person because they believe it's the right thing to do.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 31, 2005 3:49 pm (#1146 of 1858)
Liz, I agree I do not see Ginny in the light painted in that essay. As to the subject of ginny betraying the trio, I think there little to no possibility of that occurring because, Ginny is the polar opposite of Pettigrew she is courageous and an adept witch in her own right. It is far more likely that sheould follow Sirius maxim from PoA when he says I would have died rather than betray my friends. I think that Ginny would follow that advice and give up her life rather than betray her friends.
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ema fewett - Aug 31, 2005 5:29 pm (#1147 of 1858)
Here here! to all the above four or five posts! I completely agree that Ginny is the polar opposite of Peter....she would never betray the trio.....atleast not intentionally.
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TangledWeb - Aug 31, 2005 9:42 pm (#1148 of 1858)
I like what is mentioned in that essay about parallels between the trio, and while Ginny and Peter were both the fourth wheel so to speak, as JKR has emphasized in the books, it is your actions that really represent the true person that you are.
Harry could have been put in Slytherin, but he told the Sorting Hat to be put in Gryffindor. Same with Ginny...she could have continued to be the fourth wheel and perhaps let the resentment and hatred build up inside of her, or she could pursue her own friends and her own life, and be the better for it.
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timrew - Sep 1, 2005 3:14 pm (#1149 of 1858)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Ah, you can't keep the H/H shippers down, can you?
Like most people have said, Ginny has twenty times the character of Pettigrew and would never betray the trio in a million years.
I'm afraid it's a H/G ship all the way...........
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Finn BV - Sep 1, 2005 3:38 pm (#1150 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
I understand how the author of the essay considers Ginny the counterpart of Pettigrew. It is simply because he joined along the expeditions at times but was not among the "inner circle" – James and Sirius were best friends, and then James and Sirius expanded to let Remus in, and Wormtail was sort of… there. It's slightly different now, but I think the author's point is very reasonable. The point they fail to mention is that they don't feel Ginny has the same qualities as Wormtail, just that in comparison of the two generations, she fits in as that. Does that make sense?
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Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 1151 to 1200)
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Doris Crockford - Sep 1, 2005 6:11 pm (#1151 of 1858)
Makes sense to me, Finn. The author also ignores the fact that Ginny has another group of friends- I remember her going to sit with some other fourth years at the start of OoP. So she has another group of friends, who she probably knows really well, having had classes with them every day for several years. Peter didn't seem to have any other friends (that I remember). He was a bit of a loner that no one really seemed to like, while Ginny's 'too popular for her own good' (or something like that). So Ginny doesn't always tag-along with the trio, and isn't as awed by the trio as Peter was with James and Sirius. She's more of an equal to them, when she does hang out with them.
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Weeny Owl - Sep 1, 2005 10:08 pm (#1152 of 1858)
I don't agree with that essay at all, and one thing that wasn't mentioned is that Ginny has not only dated other boys but she also stood up to Ron when he tried to tell her what to do. She has determination, a backbone, and has plenty of magical ability without having to hang around people who are more powerful. Wormtail hung around the other three because he was weak and wanted their protection. Ginny nailed Draco with a beautiful Bat-Bogey Hex that impressed even Fred and George, so she's hardly needing their protection.
I agree, Doris... Ginny is more of an equal when she's with the trio.
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Honour - Sep 17, 2005 9:20 am (#1153 of 1858)
Hi there guys,
Even though I must resignedly (is there such a word?) admit that there is "something" between Ron and Hermione, It still doesn't for want of a better expression "feel right". I feel somewhere down the track Ron's resentment of Hermione's bossy, stubborn nature plus her being more intelligent than he are going to be the clinchers in the bust up of the century! They don't look and feel compatible, combative maybe. I feel that Hermione will be the one who will always have to compromise in this relationship, which in the end, could could turn into bitterness, and a once wounderful friendship would be lost ...
And as for Harry and Ginny eeeoooowwwww! I still feel that Ginny initially won Harry over with a charm or love potion, so this relationship seems to be a falsehood from the start, oh yes there were moments, but emotionally Harry isn't very mature in the love stakes, so again, we will probably see how this pans out in Book 7 too.
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Honour - Sep 17, 2005 9:36 am (#1154 of 1858)
Oh and I so did really like the idea of Viktor and Hermione, maybe he'll fly back into her life in book 7? The new DADA teacher perhaps?OK so maybe I'm reaching. But maybe he'll come join the fight against evil. Durmstrang were suppose to be quite strong in the teachings of the Dark Arts, maybe he can be an asset for the Order?
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Liz Mann - Sep 17, 2005 10:00 am (#1155 of 1858)
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I love the Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny pairings.
Opposites attract and besides, I think that if those factors of Ron and Hermione's differing personalities was going to be a problem it would have stopped them from getting together in the first place. Besides, Ron has become more mature and he needs someone like Hermione to teach him to make compromises. He needs her to make him more sensible and more mature, and she needs him to make her lighten up a little and have fun, and also more tolerant.
And Harry and Ginny I think was almost like fate (not that J.K. believes in fate). Black haired man and a red haired woman - where have we seen that before? People have commented that Ginny has turned into a Mary-Sue, but I don't think so because even though she's pretty enough that all the guys are watching her, she does have flaws - she's stubbon and hot-headed for a start. But Harry has both those flaws too, which is why they're such a good match.
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Eponine - Sep 17, 2005 10:20 am (#1156 of 1858)
I agree with Liz.
The idea of Ginny using any kind of potion to attract Harry goes against everything Jo said in her post-HBP interview and what we know of Ginny's character. Ginny is one of the only characters who knows what it's like to be controlled by something/someone, and I doubt she would ever do anything to put anyone else in a similar situation.
JKR said she made Ginny as Harry's ideal girl, and it seems to me that their relationship is just what it appeared to be in HBP. I don't think there's any subterfuge involved.
As for Ron and Hermione, they need each other for balance. Hermione needs Ron to lighten her up. He makes her laugh and brings fun into her life. Hermione, on the other hand, brings a bit of seriousness into Ron's life. He needs her to help him focus on the more important things. They each taught the other to compromise.
I've been expecting R/Hr and H/G to happen for years, and I enjoyed the way they both played out in HBP.
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Honour - Sep 17, 2005 10:31 am (#1157 of 1858)
eeooowww, I'm sorry, but where has Ron become mature? Continuing to "be" with someone because he hasn't the intestinal fortitude to break it off is not a mature thing to do. He still has a hang-up about being poor ... which I find troubling ... and Hermione needs someone to love her for who she is and be charmed by her bossy, stubborn, and sometimes righteous self and if their is anyone who is tolerant then it is Hermione, house elves, warewolves ... Ron hurts Hermione, she's run off teary eyed many times because of what he has said to her yet he never apologises to her (even Harry gets a sort of boy type apology from Ron but Hermione doesn't), this behaviour doesn't show tenderness, or respect.
And as for Ginny and Harry, still eeooowww! You mean to tell me if Hermione had "red" hair, because she is already stubborn, then she'd be in the running with Harry too? and double eeeooowww to base a relationship on a "she looks like my mummy complex" eeeooowww, eeeooowww, eeeeooowww ....
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Eponine - Jan 21, 2005 5:08 pm (#1158 of 1858)
Having a hang-up about being poor is not that bad. Ask anyone who doesn't have money.
Ron does love Hermione for who she is. He's the one who has had a crush on her since GoF (even if he didn't realize it then), and she has always been that bossy, stubborn and often self-righteous person. Hermione hasn't exactly been a shining beacon of kindness in her actions towards Ron either. Their actions towards each other in HBP are a culmination of years of attraction, frustration and confusion.
Ultimately, R/Hr has been in the works since PS/SS, not necessarily with their actions or feelings, but with the literary development that JKR gave to them.
As for Harry and Ginny - If Harry and Ginny were real people, then H/G looking like J/L might be a little weird. But these are literary characters. It's called a parallel. One of the pro-H/G arguments prior to HBP was Ron's furtive look at the end of OotP. I heard a number of people complaining that 'Ron is clueless about relationships, just because he wants it doesn't mean it's going to happen, it doesn't mean anything.' And again, if these were real people, then it probably wouldn't mean a thing, but these are fictional characters under the control of a single author, and that furtive look was Jo's way of foreshadowing the eventual H/G relationship.
I respect your right to dislike the ships, but I have to disagree with you. I think both ships were well done and entirely believable. They were developed through literary patterns and techniques, but also through the characterization and personalities of those involved.
Jo has been setting up both of these ships since book 1.
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Honour - Sep 17, 2005 10:54 am (#1159 of 1858)
hmmnn, like I said in my first post am resigned ... (Hoisting up white flag) ...
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Weeny Owl - Sep 17, 2005 12:14 pm (#1160 of 1858)
Their actions towards each other in HBP are a culmination of years of attraction, frustration and confusion.
Not to mention being overloaded on hormones and just the usual stuff teens go through.
If Harry and Ginny were real people, then H/G looking like J/L might be a little weird.
We don't really know that Ginny looks like Lily, though. They both have red hair, but I have two red-haired female cousins who look quite a bit different. One has short blondish-red hair and a slightly chubby face, while the other has long dark-red hair and a thin face.
I think both ships were well done and entirely believable. They were developed through literary patterns and techniques, but also through the characterization and personalities of those involved.
I totally agree with you on that, and with what you said about all of it being set up since the first book.
Ginny got over her crush on the Boy Who Lived and got to know plain old Harry, while Harry started noticing her in the back of his mind, and slowly she crept up to warrant his full attention.
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Maddest Dragon - Sep 17, 2005 4:41 pm (#1161 of 1858)
"I still feel that Ginny initially won Harry over with a charm or love potion, so this relationship seems to be a falsehood from the start...."
Impossible! First, Ginny would be the last person in the world to do something like that. If she'd wanted to, she'd likely have tried it much earlier on, instead of putting aside her feelings for Harry and going out with other boys. Instead of trying to force him to like her, she chose to be more herself, so he'd like her for herself or not, but not fall for her in any fake way.
Second, Harry's feelings for Ginny develop gradually. He resists at first, tells himself she's more like a sister to him, and tries to act normal around her. Perfectly realistic way to feel if he's naturally developing feelings for her.
Harry and Ginny may have some parallels with Lily and James, and not just in hair color. Like Lily, Harry was raised by Muggles. Like James, Ginny comes from a wizarding family.
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K Stahl - Sep 17, 2005 5:25 pm (#1162 of 1858)
For me, one of the reasons that the relationship between Ron and Hermione causes a smidgen of consternation is that the character of Hermione is so extensively developed, while Ron's character is rather lightly developed.
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Liz Mann - Sep 18, 2005 7:38 am (#1163 of 1858)
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I don't think that's true at all! I think Ron has been just as well developed as Hermione. Unless you're talking about the movies, in which case you're probabaly right. But in the books we know Ron just as well as Hermione. In fact in some ways I think Ron is more well developed than Hermione. For example, both have inner demons. J.K. has said that Hermione's bossy, swotty exterior hides an interior that feels woefully inadequate. But we have never found out why. On the other hand, we know all about Ron's feeling inadequate and why it has happened because he stated it the first time we met him - his older brothers are all successful and he doesn't think he can live up to them, which is probably largely down to Mrs Weasley's always comparing him and Fred and George to the older three, saying things like, "Why can't you be more like your brothers?" and "We never had this much trouble with Bill and Charlie and Percy!" He has bad self-esteem problems because of it, and also because of the poverty thing.
But Ron has developed in HBP because first of all, his confidence has improved thanks to Harry's little stunt with the Felix Felicis, and secondly, yes he couldn't bring himself to break up with Lavender, which might be seen as cowardly until you consider that the reason he didn't want to break up with her was because he didn't want to hurt her feelings. So suddenly Ron has become concious of girls' feelings. And J.K. herself said that Ron's relationship with Lav Lav taught him that there's more to being with girls than the physical stuff (which was all he had with Lav Lav). So he is far more aware now of feelings and emotions and the importance of them, and it seems he's feeling them more himself now.
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Steve Newton - Sep 18, 2005 11:50 am (#1164 of 1858)
Librarian
I am doing the HBP read-a-long and I think that I am seeing much evidence that the brain attack at the DOM is having a huge effect on Ron. Most of the trios good ideas seem to come from him in this book. I think that his hesitancy in breaking up with Lavender was only partly immaturity. He is inexperienced in this and he was also aware that the break up would hurt Lavender, and he did not want to hurt her.
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frogface - Sep 19, 2005 4:32 am (#1165 of 1858)
I actually found myself in a very similar position to poor won won at exactly the same age. I was with a girl who I didn't particularly have feeling for in the first place, and wanted to break up with her but was hesitant because I didn't want to hurt her feelings (please don't judge me, this was years ago!). So I like to think that Ron isn't quite as immature and undeveloped as some people think. Sure, he has his moments, but then don't we all? Especially at his age. I'd rather believe that Ron is just a bit misunderstood than think that both me and him are hopeless cases anyway!
I think is inability to apologise, isn't just directed at Hermione either. Did he ever actually say the word "sorry" to Harry about their fall out in GoF? Did he ever say sorry to Ginny in HBP? No, but that doesn't mean he isn't sorry, he just has his own way of saying it. For example I saw his gesture of helping out with the Buckbeak case in PoA as a way of saying sorry to Hermoine. I think they're the perfect match because their qualities cancel out the other's flaws. They probably understand each other pretty well after spending so much time with each other for six years in a row.
As for Ginny slipping Harry some potion...no way, it doesn't make sense. If he was under the influence of the potion I doubt he would have broken up with her, and to say "well maybe she stopped giving him the potion by that point" doesn't work either because he did still have feelings for her, he was just trying to protect her. Plus theres the fact that Ginny would have to have been slipping him some potion for nearly a whole year without him or anyone else noticing. I don't buy it, sorry.
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Liz Mann - Sep 19, 2005 4:51 am (#1166 of 1858)
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I completely agree, frogface. A friend of mine (who's a girl) got into a similar situation. The guy really liked her and was coming on really strong and she went along with it because she didn't want to hurt his feelings (I think he said he loved her or something). Then she found that she was in a semi-relationship with him, meeting his family and everything, without even wanting to be, but couldn't get out of it because it would have hurt him even more to tell him the truth. Eventually she had to, though, obviously. Some people are just too nice for their own good.
I also agree about Ron's apologies. He has other ways of doing it besides saying the word 'sorry'.
Also, with regard to Ron's cutting comments, growing up in a family of almost all boys, who undoubtedly rib each other all the time and have insults flying around left, right and centre every day between people who are never going to admit or let it show when the comments actually hurt, he probably doesn't realise that those types of comments do hurt, especially to people outside the family who don't know how to tell when he really means them or not. And since he's not used to being around girls, except Ginny and his mother, it probably took him a while to latch onto the fact that girls react differently to insults than boys do.
Plus, he's like Harry, he has a bad temper which makes him open his big mouth without thinking (he and Harry have a lot in common in this respect).
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Muggle Doctor - Sep 19, 2005 3:34 pm (#1167 of 1858)
Well, of course my ship prediction (Harry/Hufflepuff) sailed into mine-infested waters and got its keel ripped out. I thought he might hook up for another quick fling before going for the love of his life in book 7, but it doesn't look like that is to be.
Ultimately no 'ship is settled until Voldemort is dead and we see who is still standing after that, but I agree with those who think that HG and RH seem pretty inviolable by now.
Just a word on Draco - who would have suspected Draco/Myrtle at all? I am almost starting to feel sorry for him after this (thoughts prompted by a large discussion on a non-child-safe part of livejournal.com that I will NOT link to), because of all of the characters, he is the most alone. The task given him (murder Dumbledore) was terrible and he could discuss it with nobody living.
He finally realises what he has let himself in for by following the path of loyalty to Voldemort, yet he has nobody to support him. He travelled all the way to Hogwarts at the centre of Pansy's affectionate attentions yet cannot discuss his task with her because either (a) it would let on that maybe his loyalties are in doubt or (b) it would let slip the facade of the confident, in-control neophyte Death Eater that is probably what makes him Pansy's poster-boy. Much like Voldemort himself, he is respected and feared by those around him, but not loved.
The difference is that Voldemort cared nothing for love and did not need it, whereas Draco (who from Narcissa's behaviour in Spinner's End seems at least to have been loved by his mother) HAS known love and DOES need it, but because of the path he follows, he does not get it. What he gets from Pansy might not be love at all, but the fawning affection of a girl who is besotted by, or wishes to hang on the coat-tails of, a powerful, upancoming young man. Even Harry's relationship with Cho was possibly deeper than that - based on shared sorrow and loss, true, rather than anything you can call love - but at least it wasn't superficial play-acting based on Harry's glamour.
As one of the livejournal crowd put it: "If anyone had written a fan-fic about Draco crying and whining on Myrtle's shoulder, six months ago it would have been flamed to hell; now it's canon."
At least Myrtle understands the horror of being truly alone in a desperate situation. Maybe she was talking to Dumbledore (if Dumbledore wasn't watching Draco as closely as he claimed in OOTP to have been watching Harry), and that's when Dumbledore knew that Draco still had a conscience and could be saved.
At the end of it all, Dumbledore really died to save Draco's soul - but I digress.
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Liz Mann - Sep 19, 2005 5:45 pm (#1168 of 1858)
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Wow, Muggle Doctor! I never considered Draco/Myrtle as a ship. Well, I suppose it is on her side anyway, she certainly seemed to like him. But I suppose it's more likely for ghosts to have feelings for the living than the other way around.
You make me feel quite sorry for Draco. Poor guy! You're right, he is alone. I hope there's hope for him yet. Choices, after all.
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Muggle Doctor - Sep 21, 2005 3:15 pm (#1169 of 1858)
I feel pity for Draco, for while I am well aware that he has chosen his own path (made his own bed and must lie in it), he has done so on the basis of promises of victory and glory that an eleven-to-fifteen year old (even a wizard) probably doesn't have the wherewithal to see past (i.e. that they may not come true). This is probably unavoidable, though, if the people raising him and for the most part instructing him in the way of the world are blinded by the same promise of guaranteed victory.
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Choices - Sep 21, 2005 6:41 pm (#1170 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
It is interesting to see that Draco can be tempted by evil and yet Harry is not tempted to turn to the dark side. What a difference between the two.
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M A Grimmett - Sep 22, 2005 7:34 am (#1171 of 1858)
It's all about choices...
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Muggle Doctor - Sep 22, 2005 7:19 pm (#1172 of 1858)
The difference here (if I could be permitted to expand) is that Harry sees evil (in terms of his relatives' treatment of himself and probably others with 'differences'/weak and defenceless people) and looks on it as "bad" because he is at the receiving end, with unpleasant consequences. Draco sees evil from the opposite viewpoint, as something that he, his family and other powerful 'winners' do to lesser mortals, and which brings the doer of the evil some sort of benefit. Draco has no reason to reject evil, because heretofore evil has brought him his heart's desire. Harry sees, in Draco and those like him, the spitting image of his aunt, uncle and cousin brutalizing those over whom fate has given them power, and despises every bit of it.
All of Harry's lapses into nastiness (his attempted use of the Cruciatus curse on Bellatrix - which didn't stop her for long because it was 'only righteous anger' and on Snape, which was blocked, and his unwitting use of Sectumsempra on Draco, when he didn't realize what it did) have been under the most horrifying extremes of pressure. Bellatrix had just slain Sirius in battle; Snape had (from Harry's POV) just murdered Dumbledore; Draco was halfway through the Cruciatus curse when Harry used Sectumsempra.
Draco is nasty because it suits him to be; only when he finds himself at the top echelon of nastiness does he really see what it's all about. If both Harry and Draco survive, they may actually become friends of a sort, though I think things will always be awkward between them.
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Liz Mann - Sep 23, 2005 2:56 pm (#1173 of 1858)
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I think J.K. has said that Harry and Draco will never have to work together or become friends.
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I Am Used Vlad - Sep 23, 2005 6:06 pm (#1174 of 1858)
I Am Almighty!
Liz, did she say that. I think I remember that there was once a rumor that she said Harry and Draco would team up to fight Voldemort, and she denied saying it. That's a bit different than saying it isn't going to happen. I tried to find it on Quick Quotes, but my efforts bore no fruit.
And to keep this somewhat on topic, I love the idea of a Draco/Myrtle 'ship. Assuming, of course, that Draco doesn't make it.
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Honour - Sep 24, 2005 12:01 am (#1175 of 1858)
"...Both have inner demons. J.K has said that Hermione's bossy, swotty exterior hides an interior that feels woefully inadequate. But we never found out why ..." - Liz Mann
I think we can deduce that Hermione feels and behaves this way because she is aware of her muggle-ness and (over) compensates for this by being knowledgeable about everything she can read on Magic.
When I commented that maybe, just maybe Ginny had used a potion to "hook" Harry I meant and I think I even stated 'initially used' a potion because I had come across the passage that Molly had told Hermione and Ginny about a love potion, combining with Fred and George selling them at their shop all these,at least gave Ginny opportunity or knowledge of love potions, Harry noticing a scent whenever Ginny was around, the same floral notes he remembered in potions class when studying about love potions. If Ginny used a potion she would not have to use it for a year? She would only have to use it 3 or 4 times just to inbed the memory of the scent in his mind, trigger the memory a couple of times and teach his brain to associate that memory/scent with her and Alakazam! Hooked! The rest would naturally fall into place their shared love of quidditch etc. etc. I'm not saying Ginny did this with any malice, or manipulation, I just think after all the guys she had been going out with, she finally realised that she (still) wanted Harry and all she had to do was "tweek" his interest, hold his interest long enough for him to realise that he was indeed interested in her. Much like how we see that Hermione had to draw Ron's attention to her, and hold his interest long enough for him to accept he had deeper feelings for her as well, Geez boys are thick!!!!
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Liz Mann - Sep 24, 2005 11:17 am (#1176 of 1858)
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Yes, well, it's boys in a book written by a woman, so he probably would be thick.
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Hollywand - Sep 24, 2005 1:29 pm (#1177 of 1858)
Gryffindor
Okay, now I have this image of Myrtle and Pansy slugging it out in the girl's bathroom for the winner of Draco's affections. Yikes. Now that's ugly.
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Maddest Dragon - Sep 24, 2005 2:28 pm (#1178 of 1858)
I interpreted Harry's noticing the scent to be a sign of him naturally falling in love with Ginny. It was a scent she wore, and that he unconsciously associated with her--when he smelled it in the Amortentia in Slughorn's classroom, it reminded him vaguely of the Burrow, but he couldn't put his finger on why. Since everyone smells what they find most attractive, Harry smelled something he associated with Ginny, who he found most attractive (even if his attraction to her was mostly unconscious at that point).
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frogface - Sep 25, 2005 7:00 am (#1179 of 1858)
If she didn't use a love potion for their entire relationship, than its possible that the result would have been similar to poor Merope Gaunt and Tom Riddle. Obviously I don't think that Harry would ever treat Ginny in such a heartless way, but there would be every possibility that he would leave Ginny if she stopped giving him potion.
The main reason I don't buy it is that it doesn't make sense to me for JKR to have created the perfect girl for Harry (she's said that Ginny is ideal for Harry), and have her use a potion. Ginny has experienced being controled through use of magic first hand from her experience with the diary, and I strongly doubt that she would ever put someone else through that, especially if she cared for them. I doubt even more that JKR would create a character who would do that sort of thing and then go on to describe her as Harry's ideal girl.
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Choices - Sep 25, 2005 9:15 am (#1180 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I agree frogface - Ginny wouldn't want to force Harry to like her. He has free will and must make the choice to love her, not be tricked into it. Ginny is very popular and wouldn't have to resort to a love potion to have a boyfriend.
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Muggle Doctor - Sep 26, 2005 3:45 pm (#1181 of 1858)
She may well have used an enhanced perfume that simply snaps boys' heads around a little harder, as opposed to what Merope used, which appears to have been a true "mind-altering drug". That sort of enhanced perfume would leave Ginny in the clear ethically and morally; she could only ever be accused of trying just a little harder to get boys to notice her.
Provided all she was doing was getting Harry's attention with a scent (especially one he already associates with her), I see no problems. He's always loved her in one way or another (not necessarily romantic, mostly the way he's loved Hermione); taking the next step was simply the logical progression.
It fits for Ron to have Hermione - the Pureblood/Muggleborn connection fits with the theme of tolerance that underlies the good guys in these books. Likewise, by (we hope) Harry marrying Ginny, he will have the family he's always wanted (and remember he's always been glad to go - or return - to the Burrow, because there he has lots of people make a fuss of him in a nice way, and he feels like he's part of something good). So really, much as I'd secretly hoped for H/Hr as a second-choice possibility, HG/RH made the most sense in the book's overall context.
As for Luna and Neville, they may never (according to JKR) be boyfriend and girlfriend, but I can certainly imagine them becoming very close, even if they never become "romantic".
What I really want to know is how Ernie feels without Hannah; they always seemed to be together in book four (leading the Support Cedric campaign and swapping chocolate frogs), and they were IIRC the Hufflepuff prefects, again requiring them to have a great deal to do with each other... but were they more than that? Or have I been reading too much fan fiction? Whatever the case, she's been his constant companion for any number of reasons and he must be missing her.
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Prof.Elisabeth Skaga - Oct 5, 2005 12:41 pm (#1182 of 1858)
I think Ginny hasn't done anything to snag Harry, not this time around anyway. Remember Harry reacting pretty badly to Ginny's other 'ships... Simple as it may seem, she just let Harry be the hunter. It's the first thing in all self help 'ship books for women, don't be desperate, let the man/boy chase you, it makes you all the more interesting........ The fact that Ginny is perfect for Harry is just faith, she is strong enough not to listen to him all the time and tough enough to take the problems that lays ahead, even as Harry's girl friend. And we see that when the heros in books and films asks their girl friends to stay away it never works that way and still she always survives.......
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M A Grimmett - Oct 16, 2005 3:00 pm (#1183 of 1858)
I don't believe that JKR would allow Ginny to snare Harry like that. She's said that she made Ginny perfect for Harry, so no potion would be needed.
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Muggle Doctor - Oct 16, 2005 3:38 pm (#1184 of 1858)
Edited Oct 16, 2005 4:58 pm
It's interesting, Prof. Skaga, that Harry, who has been raised for the first eleven years in a Muggle world that was (increasingly) embracing equal opportunity for most of his life, should cling to a 'medieval' thought-frame of protecting Ginny; whilst Ginny, who has spent all her life in the wizarding world (which is quite medieval in outlook), should want to stand by his side and take what he takes, fight his battles with him, etc.
That having been said, the hosuehold Harry was raised in is itself quite 'old-fashioned' in outlook. Harry has had very little experience of being loved, and even less of learning to love in return.
This is why Cho was such a disaster for him. Had he got in before Cedric did, he and Cho might have been OOTP's Ron and Lavender, had a nice little 'pash-and-hug' fling, and then gone their separate ways at the end, the way adolescents do. As it was, their relationship (such as it was) was tainted by Cedric's death, under circumstances where Harry didn't really know whether he was coming or going. It was little wonder that he eventually said something to upset her. The worst possible girlfriend, IMHO, is one you originally went to comfort and ended up pashing. Harry/Cho was simply an illustration of that rule.
Ginny, on the other hand, is a different matter. Harry never really knew Cho before they started 'going out' - she was just that sexy Asian chick on the Ravenclaw team. By the time his feelings for Ginny were unmasked, he had got to know her very well as a person and he had already risked his neck to save her (and she to help him - I think she knew full well what she would be heading into at the Ministry; at the very least, she must have suspected that either Voldemort himself would be there, or some high-calibre accomplices).
What is more, Ginny comes from an environment that not only offers Harry unconditional love (on any level, whether it be maternal affection from Molly or the 'chaste' love that is equivalent to comradeship from Ron and the twins) but demonstrates 'how it's done' between themselves. Thus he learns to love and be loved, and that is how he will beat Voldemort.
If anyone is responsible for beating the Dark Lord, it is (indirectly) the Weasley family.
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KWeldon - Oct 16, 2005 7:00 pm (#1185 of 1858)
If anyone is responsible for beating the Dark Lord, it is (indirectly) the Weasley family.
As disappointed I was in the H/G ship, I think you hit the nail right on the head, Muggle Doctor. Very profound.
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Muggle Doctor - Dec 4, 2005 7:09 pm (#1186 of 1858)
Although in the end, it may come down to Harry/Myrtle.
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Phelim Mcintyre - Dec 17, 2005 5:55 am (#1187 of 1858)
On the Ginny and potions subject, while I don't believe this is the case, we must remember Mrs Weasley telling Ginny and Hermione about the love potions she made as a girl while staying in the Leaky cauldron in PoA.
Also, on the subject of relationships. The shop where I work had a book on Harry Potter put in the sex and sexuality section!!!!! maybe someone had taken the kissing in HbP too seriously.
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Mediwitch - Dec 18, 2005 8:12 am (#1188 of 1858)
"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
I think the conversation between Mrs. Weasley, Hermione, and Ginny re: love potions was simply to set up their existence within JKR's magical world. That way it didn't come out of the blue when Romilda Vane tried to give Harry the one in the chocolate cauldrons, which Ron ended up eating, which led to Slughorn giving him the poisoned mead, etc. etc. etc. It also provided a "realistic" option for Merope Gaunt to land the handsome Tom Riddle, again without coming out of nowhere.
EDIT: JKR made it pretty clear in her interview with Emerson and Melissa that Harry and Ginny are supposed to be together, and I doubt she'd say that if Ginny was using a love potion on Harry!
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hawick girl - Dec 18, 2005 4:36 pm (#1189 of 1858)
I also think that in the situations where love potions were used they caused all-encompassing obsession, not love. I don't think that is how Harry/Ginny's relationship could be termed.
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Liz Mann - Dec 18, 2005 5:08 pm (#1190 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I agree, hawick girl. I mean, look at Ron's behaviour when he was under the love potion.
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hawick girl - Dec 18, 2005 10:28 pm (#1191 of 1858)
Yep a nut, a complete nutcase.
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Phelim Mcintyre - Dec 19, 2005 7:38 am (#1192 of 1858)
I agree with the point that Harry and Ginny are supposed to be together so a love potion is out. The first mention I can come across about love potions is during CoS when Lockheart mentions that Snape could teach people how to make them on Valentine's Day. If Ginny was going to use one she would probably have done so then.
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rassannassar - Jan 14, 2006 1:58 pm (#1193 of 1858)
You must also remember, Ron acted the way he did when he ate Romilda Vane's chocolate cauldron because the potion had been sitting for a very long time and Slughorn did say that they strengthen with time.
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ema fewett - Jan 16, 2006 8:05 am (#1194 of 1858)
Moving a bit away from love potions, I was wondering, we know that Hermione writes to Victor....and we know that he has or had a major crush on her. What I dont get is, if they are still communicating, how would Hermione have told him that she likes someone else? Because after HBP, it's clear that Hermione and Ron are an item. I wonder...I mean, Victor's heart must have been broken and I doubt he would have even wanted to talk to Hermione after she would have confessed. Or does he still think she likes him?
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haymoni - Jan 17, 2006 7:02 am (#1195 of 1858)
I don't think Krum likes Hermione like that. Really, what would an internationally-known Quidditch star need Hermione for?
She may keep him grounded, she may offer him advice, but I don't think Hermione is the type to keep someone on the backburner. Dating Mc-what's-his-face while Won-Won and Lav-Lav were sucking face is one thing.
I'm sure that their "romance" has been over for some time.
I really don't think we'll hear from him other than a reference to a letter - "Viktor says the same thing is happening in Bulgaria!" - or something like that.
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Honour - Jan 17, 2006 7:31 pm (#1196 of 1858)
Some men find the intellect a very attractive characteristic! and my goodness the girl isn't exactly ugly! As a famous sports star, all these simpering, empty headed, dolly girls would be more of the same old same old, now, meeting and talking with Hermione in contrast, would be something different. By the end of GOF, Viktor was still serious about his feelings for Hermione that he suggested they correspond as well as an invitation to visit him in his homeland ... What would he need Hermione for? the boy does have a pulse!
Anyway, this whole romance was written by JKR just to bring to our attention that Ron had feelings for Hermione ... Now, I'd like to echo Haymoni's words - "What would Hermione need Ron for?"
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haymoni - Jan 17, 2006 8:23 pm (#1197 of 1858)
Ron is actually THERE!!!
I'm guessing you probably have to schedule an appointment to meet with Viktor Krum.
Compared to our snail mail, with owl post you can be reasonably sure that your letter will be delivered to the guy and not to a roomful of secretaries that forge his signature on a photo, but that's not the same as being there.
If Hermione wanted somebody famous, she'd have chosen Harry.
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Honour - Jan 17, 2006 10:33 pm (#1198 of 1858)
Ahh that's if Hermione had the choice ... according to JKR Ginny has been especially created for that role, so, I would reiterate that Viktor was just a wee sweet interlude for Hermione and Viktor and a sledge-hammer over the head for the Ron character (and us readers who really wish it were Harry and Hermione ...)
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haymoni - Jan 18, 2006 10:24 am (#1199 of 1858)
As soon as I typed the last sentance, I could feel the ire of the H/H shippers upon me!!!
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Honour - Jan 18, 2006 7:25 pm (#1200 of 1858)
LOL haymoni! I think all of of us H/H shippers have sadly resigned ourselves to seeing the H/G ship develop, I personally will be skimming over these bits as I read book 7 ....
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Makes sense to me, Finn. The author also ignores the fact that Ginny has another group of friends- I remember her going to sit with some other fourth years at the start of OoP. So she has another group of friends, who she probably knows really well, having had classes with them every day for several years. Peter didn't seem to have any other friends (that I remember). He was a bit of a loner that no one really seemed to like, while Ginny's 'too popular for her own good' (or something like that). So Ginny doesn't always tag-along with the trio, and isn't as awed by the trio as Peter was with James and Sirius. She's more of an equal to them, when she does hang out with them.
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Weeny Owl - Sep 1, 2005 10:08 pm (#1152 of 1858)
I don't agree with that essay at all, and one thing that wasn't mentioned is that Ginny has not only dated other boys but she also stood up to Ron when he tried to tell her what to do. She has determination, a backbone, and has plenty of magical ability without having to hang around people who are more powerful. Wormtail hung around the other three because he was weak and wanted their protection. Ginny nailed Draco with a beautiful Bat-Bogey Hex that impressed even Fred and George, so she's hardly needing their protection.
I agree, Doris... Ginny is more of an equal when she's with the trio.
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Honour - Sep 17, 2005 9:20 am (#1153 of 1858)
Hi there guys,
Even though I must resignedly (is there such a word?) admit that there is "something" between Ron and Hermione, It still doesn't for want of a better expression "feel right". I feel somewhere down the track Ron's resentment of Hermione's bossy, stubborn nature plus her being more intelligent than he are going to be the clinchers in the bust up of the century! They don't look and feel compatible, combative maybe. I feel that Hermione will be the one who will always have to compromise in this relationship, which in the end, could could turn into bitterness, and a once wounderful friendship would be lost ...
And as for Harry and Ginny eeeoooowwwww! I still feel that Ginny initially won Harry over with a charm or love potion, so this relationship seems to be a falsehood from the start, oh yes there were moments, but emotionally Harry isn't very mature in the love stakes, so again, we will probably see how this pans out in Book 7 too.
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Honour - Sep 17, 2005 9:36 am (#1154 of 1858)
Oh and I so did really like the idea of Viktor and Hermione, maybe he'll fly back into her life in book 7? The new DADA teacher perhaps?OK so maybe I'm reaching. But maybe he'll come join the fight against evil. Durmstrang were suppose to be quite strong in the teachings of the Dark Arts, maybe he can be an asset for the Order?
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Liz Mann - Sep 17, 2005 10:00 am (#1155 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I love the Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny pairings.
Opposites attract and besides, I think that if those factors of Ron and Hermione's differing personalities was going to be a problem it would have stopped them from getting together in the first place. Besides, Ron has become more mature and he needs someone like Hermione to teach him to make compromises. He needs her to make him more sensible and more mature, and she needs him to make her lighten up a little and have fun, and also more tolerant.
And Harry and Ginny I think was almost like fate (not that J.K. believes in fate). Black haired man and a red haired woman - where have we seen that before? People have commented that Ginny has turned into a Mary-Sue, but I don't think so because even though she's pretty enough that all the guys are watching her, she does have flaws - she's stubbon and hot-headed for a start. But Harry has both those flaws too, which is why they're such a good match.
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Eponine - Sep 17, 2005 10:20 am (#1156 of 1858)
I agree with Liz.
The idea of Ginny using any kind of potion to attract Harry goes against everything Jo said in her post-HBP interview and what we know of Ginny's character. Ginny is one of the only characters who knows what it's like to be controlled by something/someone, and I doubt she would ever do anything to put anyone else in a similar situation.
JKR said she made Ginny as Harry's ideal girl, and it seems to me that their relationship is just what it appeared to be in HBP. I don't think there's any subterfuge involved.
As for Ron and Hermione, they need each other for balance. Hermione needs Ron to lighten her up. He makes her laugh and brings fun into her life. Hermione, on the other hand, brings a bit of seriousness into Ron's life. He needs her to help him focus on the more important things. They each taught the other to compromise.
I've been expecting R/Hr and H/G to happen for years, and I enjoyed the way they both played out in HBP.
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Honour - Sep 17, 2005 10:31 am (#1157 of 1858)
eeooowww, I'm sorry, but where has Ron become mature? Continuing to "be" with someone because he hasn't the intestinal fortitude to break it off is not a mature thing to do. He still has a hang-up about being poor ... which I find troubling ... and Hermione needs someone to love her for who she is and be charmed by her bossy, stubborn, and sometimes righteous self and if their is anyone who is tolerant then it is Hermione, house elves, warewolves ... Ron hurts Hermione, she's run off teary eyed many times because of what he has said to her yet he never apologises to her (even Harry gets a sort of boy type apology from Ron but Hermione doesn't), this behaviour doesn't show tenderness, or respect.
And as for Ginny and Harry, still eeooowww! You mean to tell me if Hermione had "red" hair, because she is already stubborn, then she'd be in the running with Harry too? and double eeeooowww to base a relationship on a "she looks like my mummy complex" eeeooowww, eeeooowww, eeeeooowww ....
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Eponine - Jan 21, 2005 5:08 pm (#1158 of 1858)
Having a hang-up about being poor is not that bad. Ask anyone who doesn't have money.
Ron does love Hermione for who she is. He's the one who has had a crush on her since GoF (even if he didn't realize it then), and she has always been that bossy, stubborn and often self-righteous person. Hermione hasn't exactly been a shining beacon of kindness in her actions towards Ron either. Their actions towards each other in HBP are a culmination of years of attraction, frustration and confusion.
Ultimately, R/Hr has been in the works since PS/SS, not necessarily with their actions or feelings, but with the literary development that JKR gave to them.
As for Harry and Ginny - If Harry and Ginny were real people, then H/G looking like J/L might be a little weird. But these are literary characters. It's called a parallel. One of the pro-H/G arguments prior to HBP was Ron's furtive look at the end of OotP. I heard a number of people complaining that 'Ron is clueless about relationships, just because he wants it doesn't mean it's going to happen, it doesn't mean anything.' And again, if these were real people, then it probably wouldn't mean a thing, but these are fictional characters under the control of a single author, and that furtive look was Jo's way of foreshadowing the eventual H/G relationship.
I respect your right to dislike the ships, but I have to disagree with you. I think both ships were well done and entirely believable. They were developed through literary patterns and techniques, but also through the characterization and personalities of those involved.
Jo has been setting up both of these ships since book 1.
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Honour - Sep 17, 2005 10:54 am (#1159 of 1858)
hmmnn, like I said in my first post am resigned ... (Hoisting up white flag) ...
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Weeny Owl - Sep 17, 2005 12:14 pm (#1160 of 1858)
Their actions towards each other in HBP are a culmination of years of attraction, frustration and confusion.
Not to mention being overloaded on hormones and just the usual stuff teens go through.
If Harry and Ginny were real people, then H/G looking like J/L might be a little weird.
We don't really know that Ginny looks like Lily, though. They both have red hair, but I have two red-haired female cousins who look quite a bit different. One has short blondish-red hair and a slightly chubby face, while the other has long dark-red hair and a thin face.
I think both ships were well done and entirely believable. They were developed through literary patterns and techniques, but also through the characterization and personalities of those involved.
I totally agree with you on that, and with what you said about all of it being set up since the first book.
Ginny got over her crush on the Boy Who Lived and got to know plain old Harry, while Harry started noticing her in the back of his mind, and slowly she crept up to warrant his full attention.
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Maddest Dragon - Sep 17, 2005 4:41 pm (#1161 of 1858)
"I still feel that Ginny initially won Harry over with a charm or love potion, so this relationship seems to be a falsehood from the start...."
Impossible! First, Ginny would be the last person in the world to do something like that. If she'd wanted to, she'd likely have tried it much earlier on, instead of putting aside her feelings for Harry and going out with other boys. Instead of trying to force him to like her, she chose to be more herself, so he'd like her for herself or not, but not fall for her in any fake way.
Second, Harry's feelings for Ginny develop gradually. He resists at first, tells himself she's more like a sister to him, and tries to act normal around her. Perfectly realistic way to feel if he's naturally developing feelings for her.
Harry and Ginny may have some parallels with Lily and James, and not just in hair color. Like Lily, Harry was raised by Muggles. Like James, Ginny comes from a wizarding family.
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K Stahl - Sep 17, 2005 5:25 pm (#1162 of 1858)
For me, one of the reasons that the relationship between Ron and Hermione causes a smidgen of consternation is that the character of Hermione is so extensively developed, while Ron's character is rather lightly developed.
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Liz Mann - Sep 18, 2005 7:38 am (#1163 of 1858)
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I don't think that's true at all! I think Ron has been just as well developed as Hermione. Unless you're talking about the movies, in which case you're probabaly right. But in the books we know Ron just as well as Hermione. In fact in some ways I think Ron is more well developed than Hermione. For example, both have inner demons. J.K. has said that Hermione's bossy, swotty exterior hides an interior that feels woefully inadequate. But we have never found out why. On the other hand, we know all about Ron's feeling inadequate and why it has happened because he stated it the first time we met him - his older brothers are all successful and he doesn't think he can live up to them, which is probably largely down to Mrs Weasley's always comparing him and Fred and George to the older three, saying things like, "Why can't you be more like your brothers?" and "We never had this much trouble with Bill and Charlie and Percy!" He has bad self-esteem problems because of it, and also because of the poverty thing.
But Ron has developed in HBP because first of all, his confidence has improved thanks to Harry's little stunt with the Felix Felicis, and secondly, yes he couldn't bring himself to break up with Lavender, which might be seen as cowardly until you consider that the reason he didn't want to break up with her was because he didn't want to hurt her feelings. So suddenly Ron has become concious of girls' feelings. And J.K. herself said that Ron's relationship with Lav Lav taught him that there's more to being with girls than the physical stuff (which was all he had with Lav Lav). So he is far more aware now of feelings and emotions and the importance of them, and it seems he's feeling them more himself now.
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Steve Newton - Sep 18, 2005 11:50 am (#1164 of 1858)
Librarian
I am doing the HBP read-a-long and I think that I am seeing much evidence that the brain attack at the DOM is having a huge effect on Ron. Most of the trios good ideas seem to come from him in this book. I think that his hesitancy in breaking up with Lavender was only partly immaturity. He is inexperienced in this and he was also aware that the break up would hurt Lavender, and he did not want to hurt her.
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frogface - Sep 19, 2005 4:32 am (#1165 of 1858)
I actually found myself in a very similar position to poor won won at exactly the same age. I was with a girl who I didn't particularly have feeling for in the first place, and wanted to break up with her but was hesitant because I didn't want to hurt her feelings (please don't judge me, this was years ago!). So I like to think that Ron isn't quite as immature and undeveloped as some people think. Sure, he has his moments, but then don't we all? Especially at his age. I'd rather believe that Ron is just a bit misunderstood than think that both me and him are hopeless cases anyway!
I think is inability to apologise, isn't just directed at Hermione either. Did he ever actually say the word "sorry" to Harry about their fall out in GoF? Did he ever say sorry to Ginny in HBP? No, but that doesn't mean he isn't sorry, he just has his own way of saying it. For example I saw his gesture of helping out with the Buckbeak case in PoA as a way of saying sorry to Hermoine. I think they're the perfect match because their qualities cancel out the other's flaws. They probably understand each other pretty well after spending so much time with each other for six years in a row.
As for Ginny slipping Harry some potion...no way, it doesn't make sense. If he was under the influence of the potion I doubt he would have broken up with her, and to say "well maybe she stopped giving him the potion by that point" doesn't work either because he did still have feelings for her, he was just trying to protect her. Plus theres the fact that Ginny would have to have been slipping him some potion for nearly a whole year without him or anyone else noticing. I don't buy it, sorry.
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Liz Mann - Sep 19, 2005 4:51 am (#1166 of 1858)
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I completely agree, frogface. A friend of mine (who's a girl) got into a similar situation. The guy really liked her and was coming on really strong and she went along with it because she didn't want to hurt his feelings (I think he said he loved her or something). Then she found that she was in a semi-relationship with him, meeting his family and everything, without even wanting to be, but couldn't get out of it because it would have hurt him even more to tell him the truth. Eventually she had to, though, obviously. Some people are just too nice for their own good.
I also agree about Ron's apologies. He has other ways of doing it besides saying the word 'sorry'.
Also, with regard to Ron's cutting comments, growing up in a family of almost all boys, who undoubtedly rib each other all the time and have insults flying around left, right and centre every day between people who are never going to admit or let it show when the comments actually hurt, he probably doesn't realise that those types of comments do hurt, especially to people outside the family who don't know how to tell when he really means them or not. And since he's not used to being around girls, except Ginny and his mother, it probably took him a while to latch onto the fact that girls react differently to insults than boys do.
Plus, he's like Harry, he has a bad temper which makes him open his big mouth without thinking (he and Harry have a lot in common in this respect).
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Muggle Doctor - Sep 19, 2005 3:34 pm (#1167 of 1858)
Well, of course my ship prediction (Harry/Hufflepuff) sailed into mine-infested waters and got its keel ripped out. I thought he might hook up for another quick fling before going for the love of his life in book 7, but it doesn't look like that is to be.
Ultimately no 'ship is settled until Voldemort is dead and we see who is still standing after that, but I agree with those who think that HG and RH seem pretty inviolable by now.
Just a word on Draco - who would have suspected Draco/Myrtle at all? I am almost starting to feel sorry for him after this (thoughts prompted by a large discussion on a non-child-safe part of livejournal.com that I will NOT link to), because of all of the characters, he is the most alone. The task given him (murder Dumbledore) was terrible and he could discuss it with nobody living.
He finally realises what he has let himself in for by following the path of loyalty to Voldemort, yet he has nobody to support him. He travelled all the way to Hogwarts at the centre of Pansy's affectionate attentions yet cannot discuss his task with her because either (a) it would let on that maybe his loyalties are in doubt or (b) it would let slip the facade of the confident, in-control neophyte Death Eater that is probably what makes him Pansy's poster-boy. Much like Voldemort himself, he is respected and feared by those around him, but not loved.
The difference is that Voldemort cared nothing for love and did not need it, whereas Draco (who from Narcissa's behaviour in Spinner's End seems at least to have been loved by his mother) HAS known love and DOES need it, but because of the path he follows, he does not get it. What he gets from Pansy might not be love at all, but the fawning affection of a girl who is besotted by, or wishes to hang on the coat-tails of, a powerful, upancoming young man. Even Harry's relationship with Cho was possibly deeper than that - based on shared sorrow and loss, true, rather than anything you can call love - but at least it wasn't superficial play-acting based on Harry's glamour.
As one of the livejournal crowd put it: "If anyone had written a fan-fic about Draco crying and whining on Myrtle's shoulder, six months ago it would have been flamed to hell; now it's canon."
At least Myrtle understands the horror of being truly alone in a desperate situation. Maybe she was talking to Dumbledore (if Dumbledore wasn't watching Draco as closely as he claimed in OOTP to have been watching Harry), and that's when Dumbledore knew that Draco still had a conscience and could be saved.
At the end of it all, Dumbledore really died to save Draco's soul - but I digress.
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Liz Mann - Sep 19, 2005 5:45 pm (#1168 of 1858)
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Wow, Muggle Doctor! I never considered Draco/Myrtle as a ship. Well, I suppose it is on her side anyway, she certainly seemed to like him. But I suppose it's more likely for ghosts to have feelings for the living than the other way around.
You make me feel quite sorry for Draco. Poor guy! You're right, he is alone. I hope there's hope for him yet. Choices, after all.
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Muggle Doctor - Sep 21, 2005 3:15 pm (#1169 of 1858)
I feel pity for Draco, for while I am well aware that he has chosen his own path (made his own bed and must lie in it), he has done so on the basis of promises of victory and glory that an eleven-to-fifteen year old (even a wizard) probably doesn't have the wherewithal to see past (i.e. that they may not come true). This is probably unavoidable, though, if the people raising him and for the most part instructing him in the way of the world are blinded by the same promise of guaranteed victory.
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Choices - Sep 21, 2005 6:41 pm (#1170 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
It is interesting to see that Draco can be tempted by evil and yet Harry is not tempted to turn to the dark side. What a difference between the two.
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M A Grimmett - Sep 22, 2005 7:34 am (#1171 of 1858)
It's all about choices...
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Muggle Doctor - Sep 22, 2005 7:19 pm (#1172 of 1858)
The difference here (if I could be permitted to expand) is that Harry sees evil (in terms of his relatives' treatment of himself and probably others with 'differences'/weak and defenceless people) and looks on it as "bad" because he is at the receiving end, with unpleasant consequences. Draco sees evil from the opposite viewpoint, as something that he, his family and other powerful 'winners' do to lesser mortals, and which brings the doer of the evil some sort of benefit. Draco has no reason to reject evil, because heretofore evil has brought him his heart's desire. Harry sees, in Draco and those like him, the spitting image of his aunt, uncle and cousin brutalizing those over whom fate has given them power, and despises every bit of it.
All of Harry's lapses into nastiness (his attempted use of the Cruciatus curse on Bellatrix - which didn't stop her for long because it was 'only righteous anger' and on Snape, which was blocked, and his unwitting use of Sectumsempra on Draco, when he didn't realize what it did) have been under the most horrifying extremes of pressure. Bellatrix had just slain Sirius in battle; Snape had (from Harry's POV) just murdered Dumbledore; Draco was halfway through the Cruciatus curse when Harry used Sectumsempra.
Draco is nasty because it suits him to be; only when he finds himself at the top echelon of nastiness does he really see what it's all about. If both Harry and Draco survive, they may actually become friends of a sort, though I think things will always be awkward between them.
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Liz Mann - Sep 23, 2005 2:56 pm (#1173 of 1858)
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I think J.K. has said that Harry and Draco will never have to work together or become friends.
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I Am Used Vlad - Sep 23, 2005 6:06 pm (#1174 of 1858)
I Am Almighty!
Liz, did she say that. I think I remember that there was once a rumor that she said Harry and Draco would team up to fight Voldemort, and she denied saying it. That's a bit different than saying it isn't going to happen. I tried to find it on Quick Quotes, but my efforts bore no fruit.
And to keep this somewhat on topic, I love the idea of a Draco/Myrtle 'ship. Assuming, of course, that Draco doesn't make it.
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Honour - Sep 24, 2005 12:01 am (#1175 of 1858)
"...Both have inner demons. J.K has said that Hermione's bossy, swotty exterior hides an interior that feels woefully inadequate. But we never found out why ..." - Liz Mann
I think we can deduce that Hermione feels and behaves this way because she is aware of her muggle-ness and (over) compensates for this by being knowledgeable about everything she can read on Magic.
When I commented that maybe, just maybe Ginny had used a potion to "hook" Harry I meant and I think I even stated 'initially used' a potion because I had come across the passage that Molly had told Hermione and Ginny about a love potion, combining with Fred and George selling them at their shop all these,at least gave Ginny opportunity or knowledge of love potions, Harry noticing a scent whenever Ginny was around, the same floral notes he remembered in potions class when studying about love potions. If Ginny used a potion she would not have to use it for a year? She would only have to use it 3 or 4 times just to inbed the memory of the scent in his mind, trigger the memory a couple of times and teach his brain to associate that memory/scent with her and Alakazam! Hooked! The rest would naturally fall into place their shared love of quidditch etc. etc. I'm not saying Ginny did this with any malice, or manipulation, I just think after all the guys she had been going out with, she finally realised that she (still) wanted Harry and all she had to do was "tweek" his interest, hold his interest long enough for him to realise that he was indeed interested in her. Much like how we see that Hermione had to draw Ron's attention to her, and hold his interest long enough for him to accept he had deeper feelings for her as well, Geez boys are thick!!!!
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Liz Mann - Sep 24, 2005 11:17 am (#1176 of 1858)
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Yes, well, it's boys in a book written by a woman, so he probably would be thick.
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Hollywand - Sep 24, 2005 1:29 pm (#1177 of 1858)
Gryffindor
Okay, now I have this image of Myrtle and Pansy slugging it out in the girl's bathroom for the winner of Draco's affections. Yikes. Now that's ugly.
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Maddest Dragon - Sep 24, 2005 2:28 pm (#1178 of 1858)
I interpreted Harry's noticing the scent to be a sign of him naturally falling in love with Ginny. It was a scent she wore, and that he unconsciously associated with her--when he smelled it in the Amortentia in Slughorn's classroom, it reminded him vaguely of the Burrow, but he couldn't put his finger on why. Since everyone smells what they find most attractive, Harry smelled something he associated with Ginny, who he found most attractive (even if his attraction to her was mostly unconscious at that point).
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frogface - Sep 25, 2005 7:00 am (#1179 of 1858)
If she didn't use a love potion for their entire relationship, than its possible that the result would have been similar to poor Merope Gaunt and Tom Riddle. Obviously I don't think that Harry would ever treat Ginny in such a heartless way, but there would be every possibility that he would leave Ginny if she stopped giving him potion.
The main reason I don't buy it is that it doesn't make sense to me for JKR to have created the perfect girl for Harry (she's said that Ginny is ideal for Harry), and have her use a potion. Ginny has experienced being controled through use of magic first hand from her experience with the diary, and I strongly doubt that she would ever put someone else through that, especially if she cared for them. I doubt even more that JKR would create a character who would do that sort of thing and then go on to describe her as Harry's ideal girl.
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Choices - Sep 25, 2005 9:15 am (#1180 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I agree frogface - Ginny wouldn't want to force Harry to like her. He has free will and must make the choice to love her, not be tricked into it. Ginny is very popular and wouldn't have to resort to a love potion to have a boyfriend.
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Muggle Doctor - Sep 26, 2005 3:45 pm (#1181 of 1858)
She may well have used an enhanced perfume that simply snaps boys' heads around a little harder, as opposed to what Merope used, which appears to have been a true "mind-altering drug". That sort of enhanced perfume would leave Ginny in the clear ethically and morally; she could only ever be accused of trying just a little harder to get boys to notice her.
Provided all she was doing was getting Harry's attention with a scent (especially one he already associates with her), I see no problems. He's always loved her in one way or another (not necessarily romantic, mostly the way he's loved Hermione); taking the next step was simply the logical progression.
It fits for Ron to have Hermione - the Pureblood/Muggleborn connection fits with the theme of tolerance that underlies the good guys in these books. Likewise, by (we hope) Harry marrying Ginny, he will have the family he's always wanted (and remember he's always been glad to go - or return - to the Burrow, because there he has lots of people make a fuss of him in a nice way, and he feels like he's part of something good). So really, much as I'd secretly hoped for H/Hr as a second-choice possibility, HG/RH made the most sense in the book's overall context.
As for Luna and Neville, they may never (according to JKR) be boyfriend and girlfriend, but I can certainly imagine them becoming very close, even if they never become "romantic".
What I really want to know is how Ernie feels without Hannah; they always seemed to be together in book four (leading the Support Cedric campaign and swapping chocolate frogs), and they were IIRC the Hufflepuff prefects, again requiring them to have a great deal to do with each other... but were they more than that? Or have I been reading too much fan fiction? Whatever the case, she's been his constant companion for any number of reasons and he must be missing her.
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Prof.Elisabeth Skaga - Oct 5, 2005 12:41 pm (#1182 of 1858)
I think Ginny hasn't done anything to snag Harry, not this time around anyway. Remember Harry reacting pretty badly to Ginny's other 'ships... Simple as it may seem, she just let Harry be the hunter. It's the first thing in all self help 'ship books for women, don't be desperate, let the man/boy chase you, it makes you all the more interesting........ The fact that Ginny is perfect for Harry is just faith, she is strong enough not to listen to him all the time and tough enough to take the problems that lays ahead, even as Harry's girl friend. And we see that when the heros in books and films asks their girl friends to stay away it never works that way and still she always survives.......
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M A Grimmett - Oct 16, 2005 3:00 pm (#1183 of 1858)
I don't believe that JKR would allow Ginny to snare Harry like that. She's said that she made Ginny perfect for Harry, so no potion would be needed.
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Muggle Doctor - Oct 16, 2005 3:38 pm (#1184 of 1858)
Edited Oct 16, 2005 4:58 pm
It's interesting, Prof. Skaga, that Harry, who has been raised for the first eleven years in a Muggle world that was (increasingly) embracing equal opportunity for most of his life, should cling to a 'medieval' thought-frame of protecting Ginny; whilst Ginny, who has spent all her life in the wizarding world (which is quite medieval in outlook), should want to stand by his side and take what he takes, fight his battles with him, etc.
That having been said, the hosuehold Harry was raised in is itself quite 'old-fashioned' in outlook. Harry has had very little experience of being loved, and even less of learning to love in return.
This is why Cho was such a disaster for him. Had he got in before Cedric did, he and Cho might have been OOTP's Ron and Lavender, had a nice little 'pash-and-hug' fling, and then gone their separate ways at the end, the way adolescents do. As it was, their relationship (such as it was) was tainted by Cedric's death, under circumstances where Harry didn't really know whether he was coming or going. It was little wonder that he eventually said something to upset her. The worst possible girlfriend, IMHO, is one you originally went to comfort and ended up pashing. Harry/Cho was simply an illustration of that rule.
Ginny, on the other hand, is a different matter. Harry never really knew Cho before they started 'going out' - she was just that sexy Asian chick on the Ravenclaw team. By the time his feelings for Ginny were unmasked, he had got to know her very well as a person and he had already risked his neck to save her (and she to help him - I think she knew full well what she would be heading into at the Ministry; at the very least, she must have suspected that either Voldemort himself would be there, or some high-calibre accomplices).
What is more, Ginny comes from an environment that not only offers Harry unconditional love (on any level, whether it be maternal affection from Molly or the 'chaste' love that is equivalent to comradeship from Ron and the twins) but demonstrates 'how it's done' between themselves. Thus he learns to love and be loved, and that is how he will beat Voldemort.
If anyone is responsible for beating the Dark Lord, it is (indirectly) the Weasley family.
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KWeldon - Oct 16, 2005 7:00 pm (#1185 of 1858)
If anyone is responsible for beating the Dark Lord, it is (indirectly) the Weasley family.
As disappointed I was in the H/G ship, I think you hit the nail right on the head, Muggle Doctor. Very profound.
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Muggle Doctor - Dec 4, 2005 7:09 pm (#1186 of 1858)
Although in the end, it may come down to Harry/Myrtle.
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Phelim Mcintyre - Dec 17, 2005 5:55 am (#1187 of 1858)
On the Ginny and potions subject, while I don't believe this is the case, we must remember Mrs Weasley telling Ginny and Hermione about the love potions she made as a girl while staying in the Leaky cauldron in PoA.
Also, on the subject of relationships. The shop where I work had a book on Harry Potter put in the sex and sexuality section!!!!! maybe someone had taken the kissing in HbP too seriously.
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Mediwitch - Dec 18, 2005 8:12 am (#1188 of 1858)
"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
I think the conversation between Mrs. Weasley, Hermione, and Ginny re: love potions was simply to set up their existence within JKR's magical world. That way it didn't come out of the blue when Romilda Vane tried to give Harry the one in the chocolate cauldrons, which Ron ended up eating, which led to Slughorn giving him the poisoned mead, etc. etc. etc. It also provided a "realistic" option for Merope Gaunt to land the handsome Tom Riddle, again without coming out of nowhere.
EDIT: JKR made it pretty clear in her interview with Emerson and Melissa that Harry and Ginny are supposed to be together, and I doubt she'd say that if Ginny was using a love potion on Harry!
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hawick girl - Dec 18, 2005 4:36 pm (#1189 of 1858)
I also think that in the situations where love potions were used they caused all-encompassing obsession, not love. I don't think that is how Harry/Ginny's relationship could be termed.
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Liz Mann - Dec 18, 2005 5:08 pm (#1190 of 1858)
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I agree, hawick girl. I mean, look at Ron's behaviour when he was under the love potion.
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hawick girl - Dec 18, 2005 10:28 pm (#1191 of 1858)
Yep a nut, a complete nutcase.
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Phelim Mcintyre - Dec 19, 2005 7:38 am (#1192 of 1858)
I agree with the point that Harry and Ginny are supposed to be together so a love potion is out. The first mention I can come across about love potions is during CoS when Lockheart mentions that Snape could teach people how to make them on Valentine's Day. If Ginny was going to use one she would probably have done so then.
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rassannassar - Jan 14, 2006 1:58 pm (#1193 of 1858)
You must also remember, Ron acted the way he did when he ate Romilda Vane's chocolate cauldron because the potion had been sitting for a very long time and Slughorn did say that they strengthen with time.
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ema fewett - Jan 16, 2006 8:05 am (#1194 of 1858)
Moving a bit away from love potions, I was wondering, we know that Hermione writes to Victor....and we know that he has or had a major crush on her. What I dont get is, if they are still communicating, how would Hermione have told him that she likes someone else? Because after HBP, it's clear that Hermione and Ron are an item. I wonder...I mean, Victor's heart must have been broken and I doubt he would have even wanted to talk to Hermione after she would have confessed. Or does he still think she likes him?
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haymoni - Jan 17, 2006 7:02 am (#1195 of 1858)
I don't think Krum likes Hermione like that. Really, what would an internationally-known Quidditch star need Hermione for?
She may keep him grounded, she may offer him advice, but I don't think Hermione is the type to keep someone on the backburner. Dating Mc-what's-his-face while Won-Won and Lav-Lav were sucking face is one thing.
I'm sure that their "romance" has been over for some time.
I really don't think we'll hear from him other than a reference to a letter - "Viktor says the same thing is happening in Bulgaria!" - or something like that.
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Honour - Jan 17, 2006 7:31 pm (#1196 of 1858)
Some men find the intellect a very attractive characteristic! and my goodness the girl isn't exactly ugly! As a famous sports star, all these simpering, empty headed, dolly girls would be more of the same old same old, now, meeting and talking with Hermione in contrast, would be something different. By the end of GOF, Viktor was still serious about his feelings for Hermione that he suggested they correspond as well as an invitation to visit him in his homeland ... What would he need Hermione for? the boy does have a pulse!
Anyway, this whole romance was written by JKR just to bring to our attention that Ron had feelings for Hermione ... Now, I'd like to echo Haymoni's words - "What would Hermione need Ron for?"
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haymoni - Jan 17, 2006 8:23 pm (#1197 of 1858)
Ron is actually THERE!!!
I'm guessing you probably have to schedule an appointment to meet with Viktor Krum.
Compared to our snail mail, with owl post you can be reasonably sure that your letter will be delivered to the guy and not to a roomful of secretaries that forge his signature on a photo, but that's not the same as being there.
If Hermione wanted somebody famous, she'd have chosen Harry.
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Honour - Jan 17, 2006 10:33 pm (#1198 of 1858)
Ahh that's if Hermione had the choice ... according to JKR Ginny has been especially created for that role, so, I would reiterate that Viktor was just a wee sweet interlude for Hermione and Viktor and a sledge-hammer over the head for the Ron character (and us readers who really wish it were Harry and Hermione
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haymoni - Jan 18, 2006 10:24 am (#1199 of 1858)
As soon as I typed the last sentance, I could feel the ire of the H/H shippers upon me!!!
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Honour - Jan 18, 2006 7:25 pm (#1200 of 1858)
LOL haymoni! I think all of of us H/H shippers have sadly resigned ourselves to seeing the H/G ship develop, I personally will be skimming over these bits as I read book 7 ....
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Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 1201 to 1250)
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Eunice - Jan 19, 2006 11:55 am (#1201 of 1858)
*Snapette & Lupinette forever*
"What would Hermione need Ron for?"
Yes, that's the question. I found adorable Ron + Hermione during GoF, but now I think Ron is honestly too immature (and sometimes behaves like he's stupid, or at least JKR describes him like that), so I can't understand what could Hermione find in Ron. She's much more intelligent and educated than him.
I understood quite early that they were meant for each other, but their reunion in HBP didn't satisfy me. That's why I prefer for Hermione other pairings... (Gina, a member of Sycophant Hex, understands me )
Neither was I satisfied with Harry + Ginny, as depicted in HBP. I loved with all my heart Ginny's shy love for Harry in CoS, but got detached from Ginny when she started to date other boys. The eventual relationship between Harry and Ginny came almost as un-emotional for me. There wasn't enough romance for my taste (except for the Casablanca ending).
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haymoni - Jan 19, 2006 12:18 pm (#1202 of 1858)
I think she likes Ron for all the reasons that WE like Ron.
He's funny and he's a true friend.
I think they complete each other. He keeps her human - he'll call her on the carpet when she's too bookish or rule-abiding. She keeps him motivated when he wants to goof off.
Maybe she likes being part of his family - being an only child, she might like all the craziness of the Burrow.
We've never seen them alone - we don't know what they were like at #12 before Harry got there or how things went at the Burrow before Harry arrived.
Sometimes you can't explain why you are attracted to someone.
You just ARE.
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Liz Mann - Jan 19, 2006 4:33 pm (#1203 of 1858)
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I really love the R/Hr pairing. Ron influences Hermione to lighten up and Hermione influences Ron to be more serious. And I think Ron has matured a lot in the last year (the whole Lav-Lav thing aside). He was being very mature at Dumbledore's funeral, comforting Hermione (something he previously wouldn't have been very comfortable doing, probably) and he was the one who said they'd go with Harry.
I also love the H/G pairing. Harry needs a girl who he can have fun with, who will join him in mischief and help him in his schemes, but at the same time as the ability to stand up to him and bring him back down to earth (with a bump, if necessary). Ginny fulfills all those requirements. Some people have said they think Ginny has become a Mary-Sue, but I don't think so. She has flaws - she has a fiery temper, she's quick to hex and she's stubbon. However, Harry has all these flaws too, which is why they're so compatible. Plus, Ginny is the only one of Harry's friends who has had first-hand experience of Voldemort, so she's the only one of them who really understands.
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hawick girl - Jan 19, 2006 11:47 pm (#1204 of 1858)
I agree with that last part about a better understanding of Voldie.
I never thought that there was a H/Hr relationship. I never felt that Harry noticed her, unlike Ron. He always notices stuff about Hermione first (between Harry and Ron) like her teeth, worries about her schedule, etc. Also in GoF, Hermione and Ron are fighting at the Yule Ball and Hermione says that he should have asked before the last resort and after she stomps off, Ron says to Harry that she missed the point, but Harry thinks that it is Ron that missed the point instead.
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frogface - Jan 20, 2006 5:53 am (#1205 of 1858)
I find it rather frustrating when people say things like "what would Hermione want with someone like Ron? She's much too clever for him!" As well as being quite insulting to Ron (who actually more lazy than stupid) its not a very nice thing to say about Hermione either. Ok, so she clearly values knowledge - but is that really all there is to her personality? She's consistently shown signs of loyalty and friendship during the series, and those are the values that best embody Ron as well.
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haymoni - Jan 20, 2006 6:28 am (#1206 of 1858)
I compared 3 of my co-workers to the Trio - The one who loves detail and gets into all the boring stuff was Hermione. The one who was knowledgable and able to communicate this knowledge without being an insufferable know-it-all was Harry. The third is very knowledgable but doesn't call attention to herself. You can always count on her to get the job done. So she was Ron.
Her reaction was "So I'm the DUMB one????"
I very quickly told her that she was BOOK Ron, not MOVIE Ron.
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Steve Newton - Jan 20, 2006 6:50 am (#1207 of 1858)
Librarian
I can't understand why people underestimate Ron. While he has always been something of a goof off he has always been smart. In HBP Ron, not Hermione, is the answer person.
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Puck - Jan 20, 2006 7:26 am (#1208 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Ron should himself clever from the beginnging. His chess ability saved the Stone. Couldn't have done it without him! He's plenty smart for Hermione. I can't picture Her with an ambitious twit like Percy!
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Choices - Jan 20, 2006 7:10 pm (#1209 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Ron has always been our information person on matters relating to the Wizarding World, since both Harry and Hermione were raised by Muggles. Ron, from an old pureblood wizarding family, has the answers concerning all things magical and he clues Harry and Hermione in on a lot of things. He is usually kind and brave and loyal and I think he is a good match for Hermione. His grades are just about always the same as Harry's or close - they both got 7 O.W.L.'s.
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Steve Newton - Jan 20, 2006 7:23 pm (#1210 of 1858)
Librarian
In HBP Ron was the go to guy on all matters, not just the wizarding world. He was the problem solver. (This is, of course, excepting the ugly Lav-Lav situation.)
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ema fewett - Jan 20, 2006 7:27 pm (#1211 of 1858)
Here here to all of the above!! I LOVE Ron!!!
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Honour - Jan 20, 2006 8:16 pm (#1212 of 1858)
Fine... fine... just remember I didn't say that Ron was more "lazy" than he is "stupid"! I didn't say that the situation between Lav-lav and Ron was "ugly" and as for being a "loyal" friend lets not forget his jealousy of Harry, when Harry's name was added to the GOF...
Maybe, my concerns with the "Ron" character is more to do with the way inwhich JKR wrote him? In order to make contrasts between Ron and Harry she played up Harry's abilities and she hasn't quite filled out Ron's character description yet, I always sense there has to be a little more to Ron, (he may yet shine brightly in book 7). Of the Chess game in PS/SS, in Ron's defense, I personally, value his "sacrifice" of himself for Harry, the more admirable trait, rather than the way he played the game....
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haymoni - Jan 20, 2006 10:12 pm (#1213 of 1858)
I think Hermione explains it well to Harry - Ron has all those older brothers, he never does anything first or gets anything new and he lives in Harry's shadow.
How much more can a redhead take!!!
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Honour - Jan 21, 2006 3:58 am (#1214 of 1858)
That's why I think that at the moment JKR is short-changing Ron in her descriptions of him. In book 6 the twins are gone, Ron can't keep using that old chestnut! he should be a little more confident surely? instead Hermione has to curse McCleggan so that Ron can get into the team? Like you said haymoni he's a redhead for pity's sake! Where's the ooph! Where's the fire?
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Weeny Owl - Jan 21, 2006 10:48 am (#1215 of 1858)
The twins may be gone from Hogwarts, but they're still managing to give Ron a hard time. They were teasing him about Lavender during the Christmas holidays, and after years and years of their teasing, he isn't going to overcome it that easily.
Perhaps, though, the twins might not tease him quite so much if he's with Hermione because they know her and like her. They'll still tease him, of course, but maybe not as much.
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frogface - Jan 24, 2006 6:14 am (#1216 of 1858)
Ron doesn't immediately find his confidence in book six, but once Harry finally finds a way to demonstrate to Ron that it was a lack of confidence holding him back, Ron does seem to me to become a more confident character. Hermione and Harry were able to recognise that Ron felt over-shadowed by his brothers, but whose to say the Ron realised this about himself?
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Liz Mann - Feb 1, 2006 10:41 am (#1217 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Ron appears to have had a confidence problem all his life, because he's always lived with his brothers. Now that he's alone at Hogwarts, he's not going to get over it right away.
I think Ron does have the fiery redhead qualities - he always lunges at Malfoy whenever said person insults him or his family (unlike in the movie where he looks at the ground and whimpers a half-hearted insult). And I think Ron has improved in book six, especially after the Quidditch incident with the Felix Felicis (stroke of brilliance on Harry's part).
By the way, I came on here to say that I have found a petition requesting that H/Hr shippers and R/Hr shippers calm down and stop the fighting. It can be found here.
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I Am Used Vlad - Feb 1, 2006 6:46 pm (#1218 of 1858)
I Am Almighty!
So they're still fighting out there somewhere. All that seemed to have stopped here after HBP.
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Honour - Feb 2, 2006 2:01 am (#1219 of 1858)
'Fighting' seems like such a harsh phrase Vlad ... Wands were never drawn, no blood spilt, well not on my part anyway. I am resigned to the fact that the "Ginny" character was 'created' for Harry, and that JKR has written the "Hermione" and "Ron" characters into a relationship, and I will be skimming over these 'bits' in book seven. The only way I can accept all this is to stay detached really! R-e-s-i-g-n-e-d I tell's ya!
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Liz Mann - Feb 2, 2006 6:10 am (#1220 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
It just seems silly to me that some people have accepted Dumbledore's death but not that Ron and Hermione are together.
Actually, Honour, 'fighting' isn't such a harsh word in some places on the internet, and while most of them are perfectly nice, some H/Hr fans are being downright rude. Go take a look at the Harry/Hermione page on Mugglenet's Wall of Shame.
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frogface - Feb 2, 2006 6:14 am (#1221 of 1858)
You know when I read some of those comments I realised just how lucky we are to have this forum. You rarely see such immature and disrespectful comments here, and when you do the person who wrote them is cautioned, and sometimes banned all together. I actually laughed at the comment that suggested that JKR didn't see the evidence...she WROTE the books! LOL!
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Liz Mann - Feb 2, 2006 6:19 am (#1222 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I know! Some of the comments are pure cheek. Especially the ones saying that the H/Hr fans are smarter than J.K. Have you seen that petition linked to on there? It's hilarious!
Otherwise, we have no choice but to ban Book 7 when it comes out. As the millions of Harry/Hermione shippers are the only "true" fans of the Harry Potter book series, this action will seriously affect books sales, and will undoubtedly force Bloomsbury and Scholastic to reconsider any future Harry Potter publications.
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haymoni - Feb 2, 2006 6:20 am (#1223 of 1858)
frogface - this was the first forum that I ever joined.
Imagine my surprise when I went to some others!
My goodness! I suppose people think they can be mean and cruel because this is somewhat anonymous, but WOW!!!
I'm stayin' right here!
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Choices - Feb 2, 2006 11:28 am (#1224 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I love all the HP characters and they are very real to me, but they are JKR's babies and she can do with them as she wishes and I accept that. I can't even imagine people getting so bent out of shape over some fictional characters relationships. I wanted Hermione and Harry to be a couple, but JKR decided Ginny was perfect for Harry and that is fine with me. I can only wish them great happiness.
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Liz Mann - Feb 2, 2006 1:37 pm (#1225 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Harry certainly deserves the his ideal girl.
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Robert Dierken - Feb 4, 2006 9:18 pm (#1226 of 1858)
I still wonder who it is that Luna Lovegood loves good!
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Lilly P - Feb 5, 2006 12:10 pm (#1227 of 1858)
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I think Luna is an extremley faithfull/dedicated person. She defends any thing her father tells her is true even when she is considered "loony" for it. she is a depedable member of the DA, who comes running when called by the coins even though it may be dangerous. I think that is exactly the right kind of girl for Nevill! And he would be so greatfull for someone to finaly believe in him, for him and not who he should be, that he would treat her like the treasure she is. He would never tease her and call her loony and she would love him flaws and all.
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Weeny Owl - Feb 5, 2006 12:50 pm (#1228 of 1858)
JKR said that Neville and Luna won't hook up. He finds her oddness off-putting.
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The One - Feb 5, 2006 3:42 pm (#1229 of 1858)
Open minded sceptic
The strange thing about this is that by the end of HBP, Luna and Neville seems to develop some kind of close friendship, as they attend the funeral together. (I also think we see them together in another setting, but I my bu wrong on that.)
this does not mean that they will hook up, they very well may be friends only, but JKR's statement that Luna is just to weird for Neville does not quite seem to fit the book.
(For the record, I never thought that Luna and Neville would hook up, but that is simply because I thought it was to simple for the author to simply pair of the "misfits".)
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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 7, 2006 3:28 pm (#1230 of 1858)
I expected Ron/Hermione from the start and definitely after OotP, but I think something was very weird about the Harry/Ginny. It just stikes me as all wrong. We didn't get enough after all of the supposed symbolic build up people have said we previously had. They're together a few weeks, we don't see much of it, and they part. Not what I wanted.
But then I think Harry is more of a Lone Hero type, or even that he might have to sacrifice himself to defeat Voldemort, so that might be affecting my judgement.
I wonder why Jo sunk Neville/Luna on her site if she was going to have them hanging out together at the end of the book? Everyone I know who does not go online thinks they are now a couple.
Remus/Tonks is something I suspected would happen, but I didn't think was done well. I hated seeing a young female auror lose her powers from pining over a man. That was sort of squicky and I think the hospital scene shifted the balance from that lovely Fleur love declaration and Dumbledore's death to something inappropriately fluffy. I can live with it, though.
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timrew - Feb 7, 2006 5:15 pm (#1231 of 1858)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Harry needs to 'dump' Ginny, so she can come riding to his rescue in book 7.
At leat, that's what I think will happen!
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Liz Mann - Feb 7, 2006 5:54 pm (#1232 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I definately think Harry/Ginny still has some part to play. After all, Harry's ability to love is one of the things that sets him apart from Voldie, and the force behind the locked door in the DOM that Harry has in abundance but Voldie doesn't. Who he loves is irrelevent, really. It's the fact that he can that matters.
Besides, J.K. wouldn't create Harry his perfect girl and then make them only last a few weeks.
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Puck - Feb 9, 2006 8:50 pm (#1233 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I think it's all about the power of love. That's why Tonks looses her powers. Love is the one true magic, the strongest kind. I agree, kind of sappy to see a woman pine that way, but I think it was supposed to show how emotion can effect ones magical abilities.
and yes, I doubt it's really over between H&G.
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Liz Mann - Feb 10, 2006 9:34 am (#1234 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I'm sure it could have happened the other way around, too, and that a man could have lost his powers pining over a woman. J.K's not anti-femanist, you know.
I agree, Puck, the power of love seems to be one of the important themes of the series, except unlike most stories HP is not just talking about romantic love, but all kinds - family love, friendship love etc.
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Paul Spilsbury - Feb 19, 2006 11:03 am (#1235 of 1858)
Priest and theologian (anglican)
It seems clear to me that Harry intends only to conceal his relationship with Ginny from Voldemort, not to end it. Love (especially a love so important to the ultimate defeat of V.) cannot just be turned off at a moment's notice. In Chamber of Secrets Harry saved her from death, which in itself creates an unbreakable bond between them. Ginny remembers all this, even if Harry forgets ("Lucky you", she says coolly). I suspect the final confrontation to be some kind of re-run of this, with V. and snake (Nagini) on one side, Harry and Ginny on the other- but possibly with Ginny saving Harry this time. Harry deserves to be loved by someone whom he loves too. Who else but Ginny is in the frame?
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Liz Mann - Feb 19, 2006 2:00 pm (#1236 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
That's a good idea, actually. Voldemort has Harry at his mercy, everything looks lost, and then Ginny saves Harry and Harry uses his final strength to finish Voldemort.
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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 20, 2006 6:52 pm (#1237 of 1858)
Uh, Jo said Ginny did NOT have a life bond to Harry. And she said they had to come together and part. They might get back together, but Jo didn't promise that.
I HATE the idea of Ginny helping Harry destroy Voldemort. He's the prophecy boy. He has to do that on his own. It should, if I had my way, come down to the two of them.
Harry needs the support of his friends, but Voldemort is HIS problem.
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frogface - Feb 21, 2006 3:38 am (#1238 of 1858)
She also said Ginny is Harry's ideal girl. In my mind that makes it pretty likely that they'll get back together in some way before the end. Also the prophecy states the Harry has "power the dark lord knows not" and Dumbledore has said that this power is Harry's abilities to love. This is exemplified mainly through Ginny, Ron and Hermione. So its pretty likely that Ginny is going to help Harry defeat the dark lord, whether she is physically or not. Don't forget that Voldemort has affected everyone's lives. Everyone has something to lose here. He's everyone's problem. And while it looks as though Harry has to be the one to deal the final blow, other's are likely to help along the way.
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Liz Mann - Feb 21, 2006 2:23 pm (#1239 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Certainly I don't think Ginny will hold Voldemort down while Harry casts AK but I do think she'll have some part. Even if it's just that Harry looks over at her during the battle and finds his crucial strength from it.
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Esther Rose - Feb 21, 2006 2:44 pm (#1240 of 1858)
That seriously gave me "Rocky" vibes. (An american movie about a boxer.)
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haymoni - Feb 21, 2006 2:47 pm (#1241 of 1858)
"Except for the day that I found out I was a wizard, this is the greatest day in the history of my life. Yo, Ginny! I did it!"
Sorry...so Sorry!!!
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M A Grimmett - Feb 22, 2006 11:45 am (#1242 of 1858)
I flashed on Harry jogging in place and waving his fists in the air.
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geauxtigers - Feb 22, 2006 8:23 pm (#1243 of 1858)
Yum!
My Predictions:
Ginny and Harry Neville and Luna Hermione and Ron Tonks and Lupin
thats who I'd like to see together when its all said and done!
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Liz Mann - Feb 23, 2006 3:49 pm (#1244 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Here here! Although J.K. has said on her website that Neville and Luna won't happen.
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Choices - Feb 23, 2006 7:25 pm (#1245 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I know these won't happen, but I'd like to pair - Harry and Hermione, Ginny and Neville, Ron and Luna, and then Tonks and Lupin.
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Hermionefan(#1) - Feb 23, 2006 8:53 pm (#1246 of 1858)
missing my picture!!!!! *cry cry cry*
geauxtigers, thats EXACTLY who I put togethor!! And nobody believed me about Tonks/Lupin and I was like, "YES!! I promise!!" But they didn't believe me. And in fifth grade my friends were all like, "oh my gosh, Harry and Ginny are sooo not gonna get together, it's not even funny how not together they're gonna be" *rolls eyes* Yeah that's my friends all right. Very argumentative. Anyway I do think it will come down to just Harry and Voldie, no one else.
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timrew - Feb 23, 2006 8:56 pm (#1247 of 1858)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Choices:- ...............Harry and Hermione, Ginny and Neville, Ron and Luna, and then Tonks and Lupin.
You're missing the big one - Voldemort and Umbridge!
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Steve Newton - Feb 24, 2006 7:01 am (#1248 of 1858)
Librarian
timrew, show some kindness. You've got to let go. Not even Voldemort deserves that.
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The One - Feb 24, 2006 7:17 am (#1249 of 1858)
Open minded sceptic
I always thought that Umbrigde would end up in St. Mungos and marry Lockhart...
But, I might be wrong. I still prefers Harry/Hermione and Ron/Luna despite what JKR said, so what does I know?
(I did not use to care at all about who Ginny would end up with, but I have started to like the Ginny/Neville idea.)
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Puck - Feb 25, 2006 11:18 am (#1250 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
If she likes younger men, then Umbridge and Percy would make quite a pair!
(Any Molly thought Fleur was bad!)
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*Snapette & Lupinette forever*
"What would Hermione need Ron for?"
Yes, that's the question. I found adorable Ron + Hermione during GoF, but now I think Ron is honestly too immature (and sometimes behaves like he's stupid, or at least JKR describes him like that), so I can't understand what could Hermione find in Ron. She's much more intelligent and educated than him.
I understood quite early that they were meant for each other, but their reunion in HBP didn't satisfy me. That's why I prefer for Hermione other pairings... (Gina, a member of Sycophant Hex, understands me )
Neither was I satisfied with Harry + Ginny, as depicted in HBP. I loved with all my heart Ginny's shy love for Harry in CoS, but got detached from Ginny when she started to date other boys. The eventual relationship between Harry and Ginny came almost as un-emotional for me. There wasn't enough romance for my taste (except for the Casablanca ending).
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haymoni - Jan 19, 2006 12:18 pm (#1202 of 1858)
I think she likes Ron for all the reasons that WE like Ron.
He's funny and he's a true friend.
I think they complete each other. He keeps her human - he'll call her on the carpet when she's too bookish or rule-abiding. She keeps him motivated when he wants to goof off.
Maybe she likes being part of his family - being an only child, she might like all the craziness of the Burrow.
We've never seen them alone - we don't know what they were like at #12 before Harry got there or how things went at the Burrow before Harry arrived.
Sometimes you can't explain why you are attracted to someone.
You just ARE.
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Liz Mann - Jan 19, 2006 4:33 pm (#1203 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I really love the R/Hr pairing. Ron influences Hermione to lighten up and Hermione influences Ron to be more serious. And I think Ron has matured a lot in the last year (the whole Lav-Lav thing aside). He was being very mature at Dumbledore's funeral, comforting Hermione (something he previously wouldn't have been very comfortable doing, probably) and he was the one who said they'd go with Harry.
I also love the H/G pairing. Harry needs a girl who he can have fun with, who will join him in mischief and help him in his schemes, but at the same time as the ability to stand up to him and bring him back down to earth (with a bump, if necessary). Ginny fulfills all those requirements. Some people have said they think Ginny has become a Mary-Sue, but I don't think so. She has flaws - she has a fiery temper, she's quick to hex and she's stubbon. However, Harry has all these flaws too, which is why they're so compatible. Plus, Ginny is the only one of Harry's friends who has had first-hand experience of Voldemort, so she's the only one of them who really understands.
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hawick girl - Jan 19, 2006 11:47 pm (#1204 of 1858)
I agree with that last part about a better understanding of Voldie.
I never thought that there was a H/Hr relationship. I never felt that Harry noticed her, unlike Ron. He always notices stuff about Hermione first (between Harry and Ron) like her teeth, worries about her schedule, etc. Also in GoF, Hermione and Ron are fighting at the Yule Ball and Hermione says that he should have asked before the last resort and after she stomps off, Ron says to Harry that she missed the point, but Harry thinks that it is Ron that missed the point instead.
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frogface - Jan 20, 2006 5:53 am (#1205 of 1858)
I find it rather frustrating when people say things like "what would Hermione want with someone like Ron? She's much too clever for him!" As well as being quite insulting to Ron (who actually more lazy than stupid) its not a very nice thing to say about Hermione either. Ok, so she clearly values knowledge - but is that really all there is to her personality? She's consistently shown signs of loyalty and friendship during the series, and those are the values that best embody Ron as well.
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haymoni - Jan 20, 2006 6:28 am (#1206 of 1858)
I compared 3 of my co-workers to the Trio - The one who loves detail and gets into all the boring stuff was Hermione. The one who was knowledgable and able to communicate this knowledge without being an insufferable know-it-all was Harry. The third is very knowledgable but doesn't call attention to herself. You can always count on her to get the job done. So she was Ron.
Her reaction was "So I'm the DUMB one????"
I very quickly told her that she was BOOK Ron, not MOVIE Ron.
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Steve Newton - Jan 20, 2006 6:50 am (#1207 of 1858)
Librarian
I can't understand why people underestimate Ron. While he has always been something of a goof off he has always been smart. In HBP Ron, not Hermione, is the answer person.
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Puck - Jan 20, 2006 7:26 am (#1208 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Ron should himself clever from the beginnging. His chess ability saved the Stone. Couldn't have done it without him! He's plenty smart for Hermione. I can't picture Her with an ambitious twit like Percy!
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Choices - Jan 20, 2006 7:10 pm (#1209 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Ron has always been our information person on matters relating to the Wizarding World, since both Harry and Hermione were raised by Muggles. Ron, from an old pureblood wizarding family, has the answers concerning all things magical and he clues Harry and Hermione in on a lot of things. He is usually kind and brave and loyal and I think he is a good match for Hermione. His grades are just about always the same as Harry's or close - they both got 7 O.W.L.'s.
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Steve Newton - Jan 20, 2006 7:23 pm (#1210 of 1858)
Librarian
In HBP Ron was the go to guy on all matters, not just the wizarding world. He was the problem solver. (This is, of course, excepting the ugly Lav-Lav situation.)
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ema fewett - Jan 20, 2006 7:27 pm (#1211 of 1858)
Here here to all of the above!! I LOVE Ron!!!
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Honour - Jan 20, 2006 8:16 pm (#1212 of 1858)
Fine... fine... just remember I didn't say that Ron was more "lazy" than he is "stupid"! I didn't say that the situation between Lav-lav and Ron was "ugly" and as for being a "loyal" friend lets not forget his jealousy of Harry, when Harry's name was added to the GOF...
Maybe, my concerns with the "Ron" character is more to do with the way inwhich JKR wrote him? In order to make contrasts between Ron and Harry she played up Harry's abilities and she hasn't quite filled out Ron's character description yet, I always sense there has to be a little more to Ron, (he may yet shine brightly in book 7). Of the Chess game in PS/SS, in Ron's defense, I personally, value his "sacrifice" of himself for Harry, the more admirable trait, rather than the way he played the game....
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haymoni - Jan 20, 2006 10:12 pm (#1213 of 1858)
I think Hermione explains it well to Harry - Ron has all those older brothers, he never does anything first or gets anything new and he lives in Harry's shadow.
How much more can a redhead take!!!
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Honour - Jan 21, 2006 3:58 am (#1214 of 1858)
That's why I think that at the moment JKR is short-changing Ron in her descriptions of him. In book 6 the twins are gone, Ron can't keep using that old chestnut! he should be a little more confident surely? instead Hermione has to curse McCleggan so that Ron can get into the team? Like you said haymoni he's a redhead for pity's sake! Where's the ooph! Where's the fire?
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Weeny Owl - Jan 21, 2006 10:48 am (#1215 of 1858)
The twins may be gone from Hogwarts, but they're still managing to give Ron a hard time. They were teasing him about Lavender during the Christmas holidays, and after years and years of their teasing, he isn't going to overcome it that easily.
Perhaps, though, the twins might not tease him quite so much if he's with Hermione because they know her and like her. They'll still tease him, of course, but maybe not as much.
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frogface - Jan 24, 2006 6:14 am (#1216 of 1858)
Ron doesn't immediately find his confidence in book six, but once Harry finally finds a way to demonstrate to Ron that it was a lack of confidence holding him back, Ron does seem to me to become a more confident character. Hermione and Harry were able to recognise that Ron felt over-shadowed by his brothers, but whose to say the Ron realised this about himself?
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Liz Mann - Feb 1, 2006 10:41 am (#1217 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Ron appears to have had a confidence problem all his life, because he's always lived with his brothers. Now that he's alone at Hogwarts, he's not going to get over it right away.
I think Ron does have the fiery redhead qualities - he always lunges at Malfoy whenever said person insults him or his family (unlike in the movie where he looks at the ground and whimpers a half-hearted insult). And I think Ron has improved in book six, especially after the Quidditch incident with the Felix Felicis (stroke of brilliance on Harry's part).
By the way, I came on here to say that I have found a petition requesting that H/Hr shippers and R/Hr shippers calm down and stop the fighting. It can be found here.
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I Am Used Vlad - Feb 1, 2006 6:46 pm (#1218 of 1858)
I Am Almighty!
So they're still fighting out there somewhere. All that seemed to have stopped here after HBP.
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Honour - Feb 2, 2006 2:01 am (#1219 of 1858)
'Fighting' seems like such a harsh phrase Vlad ... Wands were never drawn, no blood spilt, well not on my part anyway. I am resigned to the fact that the "Ginny" character was 'created' for Harry, and that JKR has written the "Hermione" and "Ron" characters into a relationship, and I will be skimming over these 'bits' in book seven. The only way I can accept all this is to stay detached really! R-e-s-i-g-n-e-d I tell's ya!
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Liz Mann - Feb 2, 2006 6:10 am (#1220 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
It just seems silly to me that some people have accepted Dumbledore's death but not that Ron and Hermione are together.
Actually, Honour, 'fighting' isn't such a harsh word in some places on the internet, and while most of them are perfectly nice, some H/Hr fans are being downright rude. Go take a look at the Harry/Hermione page on Mugglenet's Wall of Shame.
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frogface - Feb 2, 2006 6:14 am (#1221 of 1858)
You know when I read some of those comments I realised just how lucky we are to have this forum. You rarely see such immature and disrespectful comments here, and when you do the person who wrote them is cautioned, and sometimes banned all together. I actually laughed at the comment that suggested that JKR didn't see the evidence...she WROTE the books! LOL!
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Liz Mann - Feb 2, 2006 6:19 am (#1222 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I know! Some of the comments are pure cheek. Especially the ones saying that the H/Hr fans are smarter than J.K. Have you seen that petition linked to on there? It's hilarious!
Otherwise, we have no choice but to ban Book 7 when it comes out. As the millions of Harry/Hermione shippers are the only "true" fans of the Harry Potter book series, this action will seriously affect books sales, and will undoubtedly force Bloomsbury and Scholastic to reconsider any future Harry Potter publications.
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haymoni - Feb 2, 2006 6:20 am (#1223 of 1858)
frogface - this was the first forum that I ever joined.
Imagine my surprise when I went to some others!
My goodness! I suppose people think they can be mean and cruel because this is somewhat anonymous, but WOW!!!
I'm stayin' right here!
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Choices - Feb 2, 2006 11:28 am (#1224 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I love all the HP characters and they are very real to me, but they are JKR's babies and she can do with them as she wishes and I accept that. I can't even imagine people getting so bent out of shape over some fictional characters relationships. I wanted Hermione and Harry to be a couple, but JKR decided Ginny was perfect for Harry and that is fine with me. I can only wish them great happiness.
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Liz Mann - Feb 2, 2006 1:37 pm (#1225 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Harry certainly deserves the his ideal girl.
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Robert Dierken - Feb 4, 2006 9:18 pm (#1226 of 1858)
I still wonder who it is that Luna Lovegood loves good!
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Lilly P - Feb 5, 2006 12:10 pm (#1227 of 1858)
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I think Luna is an extremley faithfull/dedicated person. She defends any thing her father tells her is true even when she is considered "loony" for it. she is a depedable member of the DA, who comes running when called by the coins even though it may be dangerous. I think that is exactly the right kind of girl for Nevill! And he would be so greatfull for someone to finaly believe in him, for him and not who he should be, that he would treat her like the treasure she is. He would never tease her and call her loony and she would love him flaws and all.
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Weeny Owl - Feb 5, 2006 12:50 pm (#1228 of 1858)
JKR said that Neville and Luna won't hook up. He finds her oddness off-putting.
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The One - Feb 5, 2006 3:42 pm (#1229 of 1858)
Open minded sceptic
The strange thing about this is that by the end of HBP, Luna and Neville seems to develop some kind of close friendship, as they attend the funeral together. (I also think we see them together in another setting, but I my bu wrong on that.)
this does not mean that they will hook up, they very well may be friends only, but JKR's statement that Luna is just to weird for Neville does not quite seem to fit the book.
(For the record, I never thought that Luna and Neville would hook up, but that is simply because I thought it was to simple for the author to simply pair of the "misfits".)
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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 7, 2006 3:28 pm (#1230 of 1858)
I expected Ron/Hermione from the start and definitely after OotP, but I think something was very weird about the Harry/Ginny. It just stikes me as all wrong. We didn't get enough after all of the supposed symbolic build up people have said we previously had. They're together a few weeks, we don't see much of it, and they part. Not what I wanted.
But then I think Harry is more of a Lone Hero type, or even that he might have to sacrifice himself to defeat Voldemort, so that might be affecting my judgement.
I wonder why Jo sunk Neville/Luna on her site if she was going to have them hanging out together at the end of the book? Everyone I know who does not go online thinks they are now a couple.
Remus/Tonks is something I suspected would happen, but I didn't think was done well. I hated seeing a young female auror lose her powers from pining over a man. That was sort of squicky and I think the hospital scene shifted the balance from that lovely Fleur love declaration and Dumbledore's death to something inappropriately fluffy. I can live with it, though.
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timrew - Feb 7, 2006 5:15 pm (#1231 of 1858)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Harry needs to 'dump' Ginny, so she can come riding to his rescue in book 7.
At leat, that's what I think will happen!
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Liz Mann - Feb 7, 2006 5:54 pm (#1232 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I definately think Harry/Ginny still has some part to play. After all, Harry's ability to love is one of the things that sets him apart from Voldie, and the force behind the locked door in the DOM that Harry has in abundance but Voldie doesn't. Who he loves is irrelevent, really. It's the fact that he can that matters.
Besides, J.K. wouldn't create Harry his perfect girl and then make them only last a few weeks.
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Puck - Feb 9, 2006 8:50 pm (#1233 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I think it's all about the power of love. That's why Tonks looses her powers. Love is the one true magic, the strongest kind. I agree, kind of sappy to see a woman pine that way, but I think it was supposed to show how emotion can effect ones magical abilities.
and yes, I doubt it's really over between H&G.
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Liz Mann - Feb 10, 2006 9:34 am (#1234 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I'm sure it could have happened the other way around, too, and that a man could have lost his powers pining over a woman. J.K's not anti-femanist, you know.
I agree, Puck, the power of love seems to be one of the important themes of the series, except unlike most stories HP is not just talking about romantic love, but all kinds - family love, friendship love etc.
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Paul Spilsbury - Feb 19, 2006 11:03 am (#1235 of 1858)
Priest and theologian (anglican)
It seems clear to me that Harry intends only to conceal his relationship with Ginny from Voldemort, not to end it. Love (especially a love so important to the ultimate defeat of V.) cannot just be turned off at a moment's notice. In Chamber of Secrets Harry saved her from death, which in itself creates an unbreakable bond between them. Ginny remembers all this, even if Harry forgets ("Lucky you", she says coolly). I suspect the final confrontation to be some kind of re-run of this, with V. and snake (Nagini) on one side, Harry and Ginny on the other- but possibly with Ginny saving Harry this time. Harry deserves to be loved by someone whom he loves too. Who else but Ginny is in the frame?
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Liz Mann - Feb 19, 2006 2:00 pm (#1236 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
That's a good idea, actually. Voldemort has Harry at his mercy, everything looks lost, and then Ginny saves Harry and Harry uses his final strength to finish Voldemort.
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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 20, 2006 6:52 pm (#1237 of 1858)
Uh, Jo said Ginny did NOT have a life bond to Harry. And she said they had to come together and part. They might get back together, but Jo didn't promise that.
I HATE the idea of Ginny helping Harry destroy Voldemort. He's the prophecy boy. He has to do that on his own. It should, if I had my way, come down to the two of them.
Harry needs the support of his friends, but Voldemort is HIS problem.
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frogface - Feb 21, 2006 3:38 am (#1238 of 1858)
She also said Ginny is Harry's ideal girl. In my mind that makes it pretty likely that they'll get back together in some way before the end. Also the prophecy states the Harry has "power the dark lord knows not" and Dumbledore has said that this power is Harry's abilities to love. This is exemplified mainly through Ginny, Ron and Hermione. So its pretty likely that Ginny is going to help Harry defeat the dark lord, whether she is physically or not. Don't forget that Voldemort has affected everyone's lives. Everyone has something to lose here. He's everyone's problem. And while it looks as though Harry has to be the one to deal the final blow, other's are likely to help along the way.
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Liz Mann - Feb 21, 2006 2:23 pm (#1239 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Certainly I don't think Ginny will hold Voldemort down while Harry casts AK but I do think she'll have some part. Even if it's just that Harry looks over at her during the battle and finds his crucial strength from it.
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Esther Rose - Feb 21, 2006 2:44 pm (#1240 of 1858)
That seriously gave me "Rocky" vibes. (An american movie about a boxer.)
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haymoni - Feb 21, 2006 2:47 pm (#1241 of 1858)
"Except for the day that I found out I was a wizard, this is the greatest day in the history of my life. Yo, Ginny! I did it!"
Sorry...so Sorry!!!
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M A Grimmett - Feb 22, 2006 11:45 am (#1242 of 1858)
I flashed on Harry jogging in place and waving his fists in the air.
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geauxtigers - Feb 22, 2006 8:23 pm (#1243 of 1858)
Yum!
My Predictions:
Ginny and Harry Neville and Luna Hermione and Ron Tonks and Lupin
thats who I'd like to see together when its all said and done!
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Liz Mann - Feb 23, 2006 3:49 pm (#1244 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Here here! Although J.K. has said on her website that Neville and Luna won't happen.
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Choices - Feb 23, 2006 7:25 pm (#1245 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I know these won't happen, but I'd like to pair - Harry and Hermione, Ginny and Neville, Ron and Luna, and then Tonks and Lupin.
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Hermionefan(#1) - Feb 23, 2006 8:53 pm (#1246 of 1858)
missing my picture!!!!! *cry cry cry*
geauxtigers, thats EXACTLY who I put togethor!! And nobody believed me about Tonks/Lupin and I was like, "YES!! I promise!!" But they didn't believe me. And in fifth grade my friends were all like, "oh my gosh, Harry and Ginny are sooo not gonna get together, it's not even funny how not together they're gonna be" *rolls eyes* Yeah that's my friends all right. Very argumentative. Anyway I do think it will come down to just Harry and Voldie, no one else.
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timrew - Feb 23, 2006 8:56 pm (#1247 of 1858)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Choices:- ...............Harry and Hermione, Ginny and Neville, Ron and Luna, and then Tonks and Lupin.
You're missing the big one - Voldemort and Umbridge!
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Steve Newton - Feb 24, 2006 7:01 am (#1248 of 1858)
Librarian
timrew, show some kindness. You've got to let go. Not even Voldemort deserves that.
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The One - Feb 24, 2006 7:17 am (#1249 of 1858)
Open minded sceptic
I always thought that Umbrigde would end up in St. Mungos and marry Lockhart...
But, I might be wrong. I still prefers Harry/Hermione and Ron/Luna despite what JKR said, so what does I know?
(I did not use to care at all about who Ginny would end up with, but I have started to like the Ginny/Neville idea.)
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Puck - Feb 25, 2006 11:18 am (#1250 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
If she likes younger men, then Umbridge and Percy would make quite a pair!
(Any Molly thought Fleur was bad!)
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 52
Location : France
Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 1251 to 1300)
Elanor Sun May 15, 2011 10:02 am
Die Zimtzicke - Feb 27, 2006 8:11 pm (#1251 of 1858)
Shame on you all! You didn't mention Filch/Pince or Crookshanks/Mrs. Norris lately, have you?
But seriously, I think Ron/Hermione is a done deal, but that Jo might still have a twist up her sleeve with Harry. We'll see.
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Muggle Doctor - Feb 28, 2006 7:13 am (#1252 of 1858)
But seriously, I think Ron/Hermione is a done deal, but that Jo might still have a twist up her sleeve with Harry.
Although I disagree, I can accept that you may be right. It would be ironic if you were, though, given that we have not seen any hot romantic stuff between R/H, yet we know that H/G has been a hot kissing relationship for at least a period of weeks.
If Harry dies, Myrtle gets him.
If Ginny dies, Harry may yet wind up with Luna. In fact, even if Ron and Ginny were both to wind up dead, I think Harry would be far more likely to end up with Luna than Hermione (which may be why JKR won't let Neville have her). Dan Radcliffe and Emma Watson may give people 'on-screen chemistry' ideas (and it's a shame from that POV that H/H is a sunk ship), but Hermione has only ever been (and will only ever be) Harry's friend AFAIK.
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Liz Mann - Feb 28, 2006 12:24 pm (#1253 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
J.K. has said that the pairings in HBP are final.
Dan and Emma probably do have on screen chemestry, but actually I think Dan and Bonnie do too.
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Holly T. - Feb 28, 2006 12:32 pm (#1254 of 1858)
Of course Dan and Emma only have "on screen chemistry" because they won't give poor Rupert any lines.
I've thought Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione were pretty obvious since CoS but my daughter disagrees. When Harry and Ginny got together in HBP I was like "Ha! I was right!"
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Liz Mann - Feb 28, 2006 6:16 pm (#1255 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
And Ginny hasn't had much screentime either. We haven't really seen her side by side with Harry since she woke up in the Chamber, and they don't look like that anymore.
Rupert and Emma, I think, look good together too.
Harry and Ginny
Harry and Hermione
Ron and Hermione
Actually, my theory is that Emma is going to look good with either of the boys, because the casting people almost certainly put the three of them together prior to hiring them to see if they had chemistry. And if they have chemistry as a group then it makes sense that they have chemestry as pairs.
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 1, 2006 2:06 pm (#1256 of 1858)
What's funny to me is that so many people think after HbP that the H/G and the R/Hr are now set in stone, when H/G have come together and PARTED at the end of that book,and R/Hr are not officially dating at the end, that we know of.
If Ginny dies, which is certainly possible, then I think it's Luna or Lone Hero for Harry providing he lives, which I do not feel is a sure thing either.
If we're going to bring the films into it, they did an extraordinary job hunting for a Luna actress, and Dan audtioned with her. He seems very determined to help Eveanna be a great Luna, since she told a French reporter he gave her his phone number. (God help the girl if anyone tried to get that phone number out of her!) That must have been funny..."Here, Dan, here's a couple of thousand girls. Help us pick one!" It was probably like going to a buffet for him.
I can't say much about Bonnie Wright, although she seems like a sweet child, because I think she looks younger than she is, and I don't feel I have seen enough of her acting to say I know how she would act in shippy scenes.
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Steve Newton - Mar 1, 2006 2:25 pm (#1257 of 1858)
Librarian
I don't actually think that Harry and Ginny have split. Ginny in no way agreed with him. She just sort of told him that she understood how he was feeling and that she wasn't surprised.
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The One - Mar 1, 2006 4:12 pm (#1258 of 1858)
Open minded sceptic
I do not agree there. They splitt. Question is whether they will reunite. Apparently Harry dropped her for security, and plan to be together again after this is all over, but...
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frogface - Mar 1, 2006 5:16 pm (#1259 of 1858)
I wouldn't really see the point in having them brought together and split apart for good in such a short amount of time. I know you don't like Ginny and Harry as a pairing Die Zimtzickle and The One, but I think they're a done deal. The split between them wasn't for the right reasons in my opinion. It mirrored what Lupin was trying to do in shunting away Tonks. Yet in the end he realised that it was foolish, and I think Harry will do the same before the end.
I also really do think Hermione and Ron are going to FINALLY get together in book 7. I think JKR has been working towards that since book one. I know people disagree on that, shipping is a touchy subject with a lot of readers but this is just how I see things, and I see them to be rather clear.
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Liz Mann - Mar 1, 2006 6:27 pm (#1260 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
...shipping is a touchy subject with a lot of readers... - frogface
Yes, I know. Some people are just taking it way too personally, as is made clear by reading the Harry/Hermione section of the Mugglenet Wall of Shame. (And that petition that was created. )
What's funny to me is that so many people think after HbP that the H/G and the R/Hr are now set in stone...
The reason for that is probably: "I mean, that’s it. It’s done, isn’t it? We know. Yes, we do now know that it's Ron and Hermione." - J.K. Rowling, Mugglenet/Leaky Cauldron Interview.
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Puck - Mar 1, 2006 8:33 pm (#1261 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I doubt that Dan has any more info than we do when it comes to the end of the series, so I wouldn't put much stock in who he chooses to send time with personally. Who he likes off screen has nothing to do with what will happen on screen.
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 2, 2006 8:42 pm (#1262 of 1858)
Saying Ron and Hermione is set in stone doesn't automatically carry over to Harry and Ginny, in my opinion. I think R/Hr is the obvious ship, the one Jo said years ago she couldn't believe we hadn't guessed yet. If there is any kind of twist, I think it's going to come with Harry.
I don't deny the possibility of H/G coming back, I just think it was written poorly so far. Like I said, I'd give anything if it hadn't been all blazing looks and chest monsters and off screen connecting.
And they DID split as far as I'm concerned. If we are going to take Jo's interviews as part of the canon, she said they had to come together and part. To me, that's a split.
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Liz Mann - Mar 3, 2006 6:20 am (#1263 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I agree, they have split. But it just seems a bit silly for J.K. to have foreshadowed their relationship since book two (less obviously, perhaps, than R/Hr but the hints were still there) and then spent books five and six building it up, only to have them together for a matter of weeks before they split up again for good. Especially since J.K has said that she created Ginny as Harry's ideal girl. I think they will get together again at some point.
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Choices - Mar 3, 2006 11:48 am (#1264 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I agree Liz - I think their so called "split" is just temporary and they will be reunited.
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haymoni - Mar 3, 2006 12:13 pm (#1265 of 1858)
Here, here!!
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The One - Mar 4, 2006 11:19 am (#1266 of 1858)
Open minded sceptic
This is just a comment to the discussion on the Ginny thread, but as it goes only on relationship, I thought I would post it here.
We assume that Ginny's original fan girl crush on Harry has somewhere turned into True Love(t). My objection to that is that we see no indication whatsoever that this is the case, except that we need to assume that it has happened in order to make JKR's statements make sense.
It is in fact a bit worse, because once we actually see Ginny say something about her feelings for Harry:
Chapter 30 HBP
"I never really gave up on you," she said. "Not really. I always hoped..." ......
"I knew you wouldn't be happy unless you were hunting Voldemort. Maybe that's why I like you so much"
We learn that her current feelings are the follow-up of her fan girl crush, and that what she likes about Harry is his determination to fight Voldemort.
Her original crush has never ended, and apparently it has not changed much either.
Of course, this is not enough to prove that she is still nothing but a fan girl, but still I find it interesting that this is the only piece of information we ever get about Ginny's feelings for Harry. (Apart from the fact that Hermione has given her advice.)
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Liz Mann - Mar 4, 2006 5:02 pm (#1267 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
In Order of the Phoenix, we learn from Hermione that Ginny has moved on. And Ginny's change in behaviour would suggest that too. But since she started talking and being herself around him, she's got to know him, and her feelings came back, except this time real ones because they're directed at the real him and not the celebrity. Or maybe they did never really go away, but the type of feelings she had changed when she got to know him.
Hasn't J.K. explained all this somewhere?
And I think what she meant by the second quote was that she admired his bravery and his determination and the fact that he can't be happy unless he's doing some kind of good.
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Catherine - Mar 4, 2006 5:07 pm (#1268 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
Hasn't J.K. explained all this somewhere? --Liz Mann
Yes, she has!
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 5, 2006 10:27 pm (#1269 of 1858)
Hary chose Cho for Quidditch and good looks. I don't see that Ginny is any different. I still loathe the chest monster and the blazing looks.
And if the love was set up from book two, (squicky idea, since she was eleven and he was just twelve, but I'll go with it) why was Voldemort able to possess Ginny when she was getting feelings for Harry? Voldemort could not stand to possess Harry when Harry felt genuine love.
By the way, Ginny NEVER said she moved on, or that her feelings came back. It's canon that she never gave up on him, not really. That's the bottom line. If she was trying to be more herself to get Harry to notice her, that's why so many people who don't like her feel she was using the other guys. Couldn't she learn to be herself when she was 13 or 14 with out having boyfriends involved? If you don't know who you are, in my opinion, you can't know what you really want.
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frogface - Mar 6, 2006 2:50 am (#1270 of 1858)
I think you're sort of missing the point that these kids are growing up. Harry has grown up a lot since he first noticed Cho, and he actually knows Ginny for who she is now, having spent two whole summers, christmas's, and times he's been in her company at where she hasn't been shying away from him. So I see that relationship as being a step up from his crush on Cho.
And anyway, we can't just judge the character's on what they say because that just isn't how things work. What people say and what they actually mean can to be very different things.
Lastly, a LOT of teenagers aren't entirely sure who they are but I can't see how that gets in the way of who they care for. Plenty of teenagers also have friends and boyfriends and girlfriends who they genuinely care for. And she wasn't trying to get Harry to notice her. She was just being herself in the hope that one day Harry might come around. Thats different. So I don't see her as dating Micheal or Dean as a tactic. Just a young girl exploring, which is perfectly normal.
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Liz Mann - Mar 6, 2006 6:40 am (#1271 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I think her dating Micheal and Dean was a way for her to try and move on from Harry. Hermione, after all, said she told Ginny to do just that.
And I liked the chest monster thing. Okay, there's a physical side to the relationship, there's one to every relationship, but that doesn't mean that's all it's about. I think Harry likes Ginny not only for her prettiness and her Quidditch skills, but also because of her personality - her daring, her rebelliousness, her sarcasm, her strength. I certainly think her bat bogey hexes impressed him.
As for why could Voldemort possess her when she was getting feelings for Harry, her feelings were not love back then. It was an eleven year old girl's crush. I don't know if they're love even now, or if his feelings toward her are either. That's the beauty of HP, it's realistic - people don't jump straight from indifference to true love like they do in Disney movies and fairy tales. Harry likes Ginny a lot, in a romantic way, and Ginny is the same back. Maybe it will develop into love later, but for the moment it's just a romantic liking. Harry loved Sirius (in a different way, obviously) and that's the feeling Voldemort couldn't stand when he tried to possess Harry.
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Esther Rose - Mar 6, 2006 7:57 am (#1272 of 1858)
Not to say that this is canon but perhaps. Just perhaps Harry sees the amount of courage Ginny has.
Ginny was the only other student that actually faced Tom Riddle(Voldemort) and still went to the MOM with Harry. I am not saying she knows all of what Harry is facing. but she understands a lot of what Harry is facing, probably more than anyone else. It's one thing to hear the stories like Ron and Hermione have. It's another thing completely to be stuck in the middle of it like Ginny has.
She probably has a lot of respect from Harry, not to mention an unspoken bond that began when he saved her in COS.
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Weeny Owl - Mar 6, 2006 11:31 am (#1273 of 1858)
Sixteen-year-old Tom Riddle possessed Ginny. The powerful and much-more-learned Voldemort didn't. They may be one and the same in many ways, but at sixteen Tom Riddle wasn't the same person as Lord Voldemort in the Ministry's atrium.
I don't see Ginny as using other guys. Even if, at only fourteen or fifteen, she hadn't quite given up on Harry, she is strong enough not to sit hidden away pining for someone. She made friends, dated a couple of boys, and became the person she truly is instead of the girl who had only a crush. She is growing, maturing, and becoming her own person, and when she started being herself, Harry started seeing her differently.
It's definitely realistic.
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Esther Rose - Mar 6, 2006 11:41 am (#1274 of 1858)
True Weeney Owl but it is still a step closer to experiencing Tom(Voldemort) than any of Harry's other friends have experienced to date.
And, if a dumb troll can unite Ron and Harry to Hermione then a bewitched diary certainly must have made some sort of connection between Harry and Ginny. =)
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Puck - Mar 6, 2006 12:30 pm (#1275 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I was watching PS/SS last night and noted Hermione making a comment about the dirt on Ron's nose. Molly had said the same to him as well (in the book, not the movie)
We have also mentioned that Ginny -in some ways- makes us think of Lily.
So, in the end, they could both end up marrying someone much like the girl that "married dear old Dad"!
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 6, 2006 1:41 pm (#1276 of 1858)
Ginny only faced Tom Riddle when he came out of the diary, and then she became unconcious. When he was using her she didn't know what she was doing. She didn't remember any of it. That is not the same as Voldemort using Harry, who was fully aware of what was going on, to get Dumbledore to kill Harry.
I agree they have possession in common, but it's not the same sort of possession, and Harry has never even admitted to Ginny that he was possessed at the DoM They need to have some serious converstaions about their experiences and motivations, not about tattoos and Quidditch, before I'll admit they have a serious relationship.
It's possible they will do that, but I haven't seen it yet, so that's why I'm hesitant to believe H/G is a final pairing. It certainly could be, but I'm not sold on it yet.
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Puck - Mar 6, 2006 2:00 pm (#1277 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Well, it isn't canon, but we can't say they haven't talked about such things. They spent much time together during the final weeks of the term, and we only caught a glimpse or two. JKR isn't writing romance, so she leaves out many of these kind of details. Personally I find it hard to imagine they haven't had any such serious discussions.
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Esther Rose - Mar 6, 2006 2:13 pm (#1278 of 1858)
But facing Tom Riddle(Voldemort) even if it is just before "taking a nap" is still more than what any of the other students experienced.
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haymoni - Mar 6, 2006 2:23 pm (#1279 of 1858)
Who'd want to talk about Voldy when you could be snogging???
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Weeny Owl - Mar 6, 2006 3:54 pm (#1280 of 1858)
True Weeney Owl but it is still a step closer to experiencing Tom(Voldemort) than any of Harry's other friends have experienced to date.
Oh, yes it is, Esther. I was just giving my view on why possessing Ginny and possessing Harry were miles apart. The memory-Tom and the true Lord Voldemort aren't quite the same, so possessing Ginny wouldn't be quite the problem for a sixteen-year-old that possessing Harry would for the complete and totally evil Voldemort.
The fact remains that Harry and Ginny have a bond no one else has, and they have each grown stronger after those experiences. That's part of why I feel they're ideally suited.
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Liz Mann - Mar 6, 2006 4:15 pm (#1281 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I agree, Weeny Owl. Not so much because they were both possessed by Voldemort but because they've both met and experienced him in some shape or form. Ron and Hermione have never even seen Voldemort... yet.
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Finn BV - Mar 9, 2006 3:42 pm (#1282 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
I never really post on this thread, so hi everybody!
Over on Jo's site one of the Easter Eggs shows a revision of OoP. One of the columns of the basic plot of the chapter refers to "Cho/Ginny," so for anybody who's still not convinced JKR had been trying to plan Harry/Ginny, there's a little proof from early stages of Book 5.
Just thought I'd let you all know.
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 9, 2006 6:46 pm (#1283 of 1858)
Having a chapter mostly about Cho/Ginny does not mean it has to be H/G in the end.
If it does, I don't see how...nothing personal meant.
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Finn BV - Mar 10, 2006 8:09 am (#1284 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
No, if you go to her site, she has different categories set up for things that might happen in the chapter, e.g. plot is the main one, but Order of the phoenix, DA, and Cho/Ginny are others. You sort of have to see it, but they're set up to notate the main plot points of the book, and which part happens in the chapter. I just saw it and sort of struck me.
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 10, 2006 9:06 am (#1285 of 1858)
I can't get the silly thing to work. I'm never any good at this kind of stuff. I usually just wait for someone to tell me what happened. I'm quite computer illiterate.
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TheSaint - Mar 12, 2006 4:56 am (#1286 of 1858)
Die..if you go tothe site thread, someone posted a link.
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The One - Mar 30, 2006 12:33 pm (#1287 of 1858)
Open minded sceptic
Ship thread has been dead for weeks! We can not have that.
As an old H/Hr shipper I still cannot make the OBHWF thing make sense, despite JKR's statements in the famous interviews.
An idea struck me: I have always felt that Ron needed to get his own life outside of the trio. He has always been overshadowed by his brothers, by Harry, even by Hermione. He needs to live at least parts of his life in a setting where he is not defined primarily as the kid brother of the Quidditch star Charlie, the brilliant Percy and Bill and the funny twins and the big brother of the cool babe Ginny. He also is the sidekick of Harry the hero and a friend of the extremely brilliant Hermione.
He started out making a name for him self as a Quddich player of course, that is one step in the right direction. Still it is on a team led by Harry.
When he once more was overshadowed by his friends, first by beeing invited to the big cool party as a hang-on on the brilliant Hermione, while the Hero Harry and the cool babe Ginny was invited by Slughorn himself, then by being reminded that he alone in his closest circle had no romantic experience whatsoever, he did another step in that direction, he got himself a girlfriend outside of the trio.
Most people consider that as a detour on his path towards Hermione, but what if it was not? What if the idea of getting a life as something else than the least spectacular trio member by looking for a girlfriend was a sound one, he just happened to go for the wrong girl?
Luna showed a certain interest in Ron in OotP. Is it a coincident that Ron starts to see Luna with fresh eyes, just as his relationship with Lavender approaches it disastrous end?
Remember that in GoF we learn that Luna seems to live not to far from the Weasley's, a piece of information that still isn't used for anything.
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Choices - Mar 30, 2006 1:18 pm (#1288 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
The One, I am still living in hope (probably false - LOL) that Harry and Hermione will still end up together. It definitely looks like Ginny and Harry, but I just can't let go of Harry and Hermione. :-(
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 30, 2006 6:31 pm (#1289 of 1858)
I can let go of Harruy/Hermione as I wasn't that hung up on it. I can't understand Harry/Ginny, though. What does SHE get out of it? He doesn't pay her that much attention, or discuss many important things wiht her. He didn't even give her consolation when he was bringing her out of the chamber, or when she was telling him about Bill. It was straight to business. It all just seemed superficial to me, mostly because of that wretched chest monster.
I wish I could see it, but I don't. I've read so many essays, Im cross eyed, but it still seems to me he didn't think of her as anything except a little sister, until he realized she was doing stuff with other guys.
I wanted to see more of the interaction, and not be told about it, ot worse yet, just be told to be quiet and accept it.
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Aimee Shawn - Mar 30, 2006 8:02 pm (#1290 of 1858)
Perhaps because Harry doesn't have much conversation with Ginny, I just don't see them as intellectual equals. Hermione challenges Harry, pushes him to excel and gives him moral and physical support to achieve his goals. Harry and Ginny's relationship seems purely physical. Great when you are young - as I seem to remember in my distant past! - but not much once the attraction has faded or the desire sated. Chest monsters don't hang around forever.
When I mentioned this several months ago, I got my head handed to me, maybe calmer heads are prevailing. I was really glad to read the last 3 posts! (Amazing how smart people who agree with your point of view are, isn't it?! LOL) Cannot for the life of me see a H/G 'ship. Would like to see H/Hr or I could even go for someone new entirely. Harry/Ginny just doesn't work for me as things are as of book 6.
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Liz Mann - Mar 31, 2006 2:23 am (#1291 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I think Harry and Ginny are interlectual equals, it's just that J.K. didn't spend all that much time showing their relationship because she was focusing on the horcruxes and didn't want HBP to be as long as OotP.
He doesn't pay her that much attention, or discuss many important things wiht her. He didn't even give her consolation when he was bringing her out of the chamber, or when she was telling him about Bill.
But that was long before he had any romantic interest in her. I'm sure he pays her much more attention now.
It all just seemed superficial to me, mostly because of that wretched chest monster.
I don't understand why people hate the chest monster so much. Okay, it's kinda cheesy but then teenage romance often is. It's just a reference to something primal inside him. And technically it was Harry who described it as that, so maybe J.K is saying something about Harry there. I thought it was cute.
But it still seems to me he didn't think of her as anything except a little sister, until he realized she was doing stuff with other guys.
It wasn't that, it was the fact that she started seeing other guys when she had decided to move on from her fan-girl-like crush on him. When she did that she started acting more naturally around him, showing her true self (the strong, confident girl rather than the shy, silly, pining-after-him girl). Seeing the real her (from OotP onwards) made Harry fall for her. I mean, how is he supposed to fall for her or see her as anything but Ron's little sister when she hardly ever talks to him? Likewise, how is she supposed to have anything but a fan-girl crush on him when she never talks to him? When she got over that crush she started talking to him which meant she fell for him again, but this time the real him.
But when he first started seeing the real her (in OotP) he was still interested in Cho, so any interest he had in Ginny would have gone unnoticed by him (and so by us since the books are from his POV) because he was preoccupied. I think his interest in Ginny was already developing, subconciously, in book five.
Harry and Ginny's relationship seems purely physical.
I don't think it is. Obviously there is a physical element, there is in every relationship, but it's not all about that. Harry's relationship with Cho was purely physical (and an admiration for her Quidditch skills), so having it be the same with Ginny wouldn't make sense because the point of Cho was to get Harry past that teenage 'looks-are-everything, physical-is-all-that-matters' ideology. Ginny has a lot of personality similarities with Harry, including their flaws (which Ginny does have even though some fans are wrongly accusing her of being perfect) - such as a firey temper, the ability to act rashly etc. Ginny also has the ability to keep Harry in line and his feet on the ground. She shares a love of mischief with him too. When Harry said he wanted to get into Umbridge's office Hermione was scolding and worrying over the very idea, while Ginny said, "Okay, I think that's possible."
I think Harry sees Hermione too much as a mother-figure. After all, his concience usually speaks to him in Hermione's voice. Not really something a man wants from his girlfriend.
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 31, 2006 7:26 am (#1292 of 1858)
Harry cetainly was in a relationship with Ginny was Bill was injured. He could have comforted her a little when he heard the news, even if it was just a hug, or an arm around her.
Ginny decided to date other guys, but she admits she had never given up on him, not really, so she was still pining for the boy who lived, even before she really got to know him one on one, so it still seems a bit superficial to me. If she had gotten over the crush, then they'd gotten to be friends, and then gotten together, I'd have no problem with it, but as long as she still had the crush, it makes it look a bit like she was just using the other gusy to bide her time until Harry noticed her. We still didn't see them talk that much, and I wish we could have.
Harry liked Cho because of Quidditch and her good looks. What's so different with Ginny?
Getting into Umbridge's office was a tactical move, not mischief to me, by the way.
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The One - Mar 31, 2006 8:09 am (#1293 of 1858)
Open minded sceptic
My dislike of the Harr7 Ginny ship and the Ron Hermione ship is quite different in nature.
There can be, and have been made tons and tons of points for and against the different shop, we see the character react to each other i different settings, and I understand tha people have strong opinions in one direction, while I have strong opinions in another.
The Harry/Ginny relationship is different. I do not really have strong opinions against it. It is nothing wrong with Ginny. It is nothing wrong with Harry's hormones going heywire over the pretty girl.
It is just that it is nothing in the description of Ginny or in the description of her relationship with Harry that gives me the impression that this is important. Ok, one teenager, the hero, snogs another teenager, the babe, and thats it. What else is new?
In all of the HBP Harry's relationship with Hermione and Ron is somewhat toned down. Ron and Hermione's disbeliefe with respect to Harry's Draco theories combined with Hermione's intense dislike of Harry's use of the potions book creates a certain distance, combined with the fact that a lot of the focus when the trio is working as a trio is on romantic problems between Ron and Hermione. The HBP is very much about Harry, DD, Draco and Snape. The two other trio mebers and the other students is mostly background.
Then, at the end of the story Harry gets a girlfriend. Does the author use the possibility to let the Hero speak to her, to see if she support her where his friends does not? No, she does not. At the end of the story we see noattempt at all of creating a bounding between Harry and his girlfriend. What we see is that at the end of the book the focus is turned back on the trio as a unit. We see Hermione wait to discuss trio things till after Ginny has left.
It looks like the Author puts effort ito saying that despite the trio going in the background in HBP, the trio will be very important in book 7. But the book also seems to say that a 16 year old hero is supossed to have a girl friend, but byond that Ginny is not really important.
This was a long and complicate post to say a simple thing: To me, the Ron/hermione ship is a ship that you may like or dislike, but it is there fo a reason, it serves purpose, and I understand that other likes it even if I am not to found of it.
Harry/Ginny is different, that one simply is not important.
And I feel that in this story, the Hero's girl friend should be important.
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Weeny Owl - Mar 31, 2006 10:06 am (#1294 of 1858)
Harry cetainly was in a relationship with Ginny was Bill was injured. He could have comforted her a little when he heard the news, even if it was just a hug, or an arm around her.
When Bill was injured, Harry had just seen Dumbledore killed.
JKR has put all sorts of subtle things in the book about Harry and Ginny, and part of that is that Harry spent most of the summer at the Burrow, and with Ginny being herself around him for nearly an entire summer, they each got to know the other as real people.
Harry's "chest monster" is simply a way of describing a growing attraction, and I didn't have a problem with it. It's no different than describing those feelings as a butterflies in the stomach.
As for Harry not discussing specific things with Ginny or for his girlfriend needing to be important, I just don't see it that way.
Harry is the main focus, and his dealings with his enemies are more of a secondary focus than anything else. He has Ron and Hermione, but usually at the end, he's alone. First book, Harry goes on alone to fight Quirrel. Second book, Harry goes on alone to fight diary Tom. Third book, Harry goes on alone to fight the dementors. Fourth book, Harry goes on alone even if Cedric is with him initially. Fifth book, Harry goes on alone but Neville shows up. Sixth book he's with Dumbledore but goes on alone to fight Snape.
Ginny was the one who came to get Harry and take him to the hospital wing. Even Hagrid wasn't getting through to him. Ginny no longer has a crush on Harry. She is over the silly, giddy, girls-following-Viktor fan club thing. She never gave up on him because her feelings for him were always there below the surface, and now that she's growing up and seeing Harry and not some fantasy, she can be Ginny around him.
Harry has seen a different Ginny - the true Ginny - since OotP, and after spending so much time with her during the summer, he isn't seeing a member of a fan club but the person she really is.
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Holly T. - Mar 31, 2006 10:22 am (#1295 of 1858)
I think when Ginny was in the DA Harry started seeing her as more of an equal instead of a younger sister-type figure who just always kind of there in the background. I also think the scene in the library with the Easter eggs is important to the development of the Harry/Ginny relationship. They interact like real friends, people who are comfortable with each other. Harry was never comfortable with Cho.
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Liz Mann - Mar 31, 2006 2:15 pm (#1296 of 1858)
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Weeny Owl - you put it better than me.
You can be mostly over someone but not entirely. A person who's mostly over their old crush can act normally around them and be comfortable, but they still wouldn't say no to getting together.
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frogface - Mar 31, 2006 3:22 pm (#1297 of 1858)
I agree, its not "a crush" anymore. The feelings stayed there but they developed. You don't spend five years in someones company without getting to know them pretty darn well. I think that it shows a lot of strength that instead of Ginny forgetting about Harry, her feelings remained and matured over a long time.
We can't assume that JKR intended us to see the relationship as unimportant because we aren't her. I personally think the H/G ship will turn out to be very important, and I know there are those who disagree. But those are just opinions.
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Liz Mann - Mar 31, 2006 3:51 pm (#1298 of 1858)
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How important the relationship will ultimately be to the end of the series, I don't know. I certainly don't think that romance is the most important part of the plot. But there has been evidence that Harry's ability to love will be important, and this ability is displayed through his feelings for Ginny as well as his friendship with Ron and Hermione and others.
What I do definitely think is that this relationship is not over. J.K. spent too much time foreshadowing it and building up to it for it only to last a few weeks. I think Harry will miss Ginny a lot while he's off fighting Voldemort and I think Ginny will be present at the final battle.
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Finn BV - Mar 31, 2006 4:21 pm (#1299 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Maybe it should be said that the main difference between the girls-following-Krum and Harry and Ginny is that in the former 'ship, half of the involved parties are not sharing the attraction the other half has. Harry and Ginny are equally in love with each other, that they don't need to be falling for each other at every sight of the other, as Ron and Lavender's fling. If there's mutual love between two emotionally mature people -- especially these two who will be front-runners in the inevitable showdown -- then they won't be the type of 'ship where there are two people who won't let go of the other, who are constantly embraced, but they will be two people who love each other and know that they don't have to worry about losing the other's love if they "unlock" themselves from a hug or something.
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 31, 2006 7:58 pm (#1300 of 1858)
Where is the mutual love though? Harry never said he loved Ginny. She never said she loved him. He never confided in her about anything important. Even in the chocolate scene, he didn't say why he was upset, only that he wanted to talk to Sirius.
And I do not see anyone but Harry in the inevitable showdown. Harry's the prophecy boy. He has to do the job. Not Ginny, or Hermione, or Ron, or anyone else. The love he needs is the love you get when you believe in yourself, in who you are and what you have to do, in my opinion. Not the love you get when you practically ignore a girl for years, and she will still sit at your feet if you give her a snog in front of fifty people including her brother, and her ex.
And at 15 an 16, I would hardly consider any of the kids emotionally mature people. Harry and Ginny, together, were not mature at all. They were downright nasty sometimes. Jo said Ginny was compassionate right after writing a book where Ginny treated a lot of people terribly. Love SHOULD make us more compassionate people. Not high strung, temper tossing, pushy people who can't keep their priorities straight.
Where was she so mature? Pretending to vomit into her cereal bowl? Bringing a pet to school that was not on the approved school list? Hexing Zacharias? (God forbid anyone actually ask what happened in regards to something the whole wizarding world is wondering about!) Dissing Ron for his sexual inexperience? Talking down to Hermione, who has done nothing but help her? Crashing into Zacharias? Still acting like she has to learn to put up with Bill's wedding to Fleur, after Fleur's well done declaration of love in the hospital scene?
I don't see it, except maybe when she led Harry away from Dumbledore's body, and like I said, he tuned her out and did not try to comfort her or gain comfort from her. He just let her lead him off.
It's him, too. It was all about him in that scene, like it always is, which is what you get when you have a socially inept boyfriend like Harry. He can't connect with Ginny on a deep level. If he can, he hasn't yet. She's always got to be his support, his comfort, his little fan girl, whom he can always count on to come whenever he's ready for her, and drop when he has other things to do that he WON'T tell her about.
That's not romantic to me. It's pitiful. This relationship in HbP brought out the worst in both of them, and I hope it gets better in the last book.
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Shame on you all! You didn't mention Filch/Pince or Crookshanks/Mrs. Norris lately, have you?
But seriously, I think Ron/Hermione is a done deal, but that Jo might still have a twist up her sleeve with Harry. We'll see.
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Muggle Doctor - Feb 28, 2006 7:13 am (#1252 of 1858)
But seriously, I think Ron/Hermione is a done deal, but that Jo might still have a twist up her sleeve with Harry.
Although I disagree, I can accept that you may be right. It would be ironic if you were, though, given that we have not seen any hot romantic stuff between R/H, yet we know that H/G has been a hot kissing relationship for at least a period of weeks.
If Harry dies, Myrtle gets him.
If Ginny dies, Harry may yet wind up with Luna. In fact, even if Ron and Ginny were both to wind up dead, I think Harry would be far more likely to end up with Luna than Hermione (which may be why JKR won't let Neville have her). Dan Radcliffe and Emma Watson may give people 'on-screen chemistry' ideas (and it's a shame from that POV that H/H is a sunk ship), but Hermione has only ever been (and will only ever be) Harry's friend AFAIK.
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Liz Mann - Feb 28, 2006 12:24 pm (#1253 of 1858)
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J.K. has said that the pairings in HBP are final.
Dan and Emma probably do have on screen chemestry, but actually I think Dan and Bonnie do too.
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Holly T. - Feb 28, 2006 12:32 pm (#1254 of 1858)
Of course Dan and Emma only have "on screen chemistry" because they won't give poor Rupert any lines.
I've thought Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione were pretty obvious since CoS but my daughter disagrees. When Harry and Ginny got together in HBP I was like "Ha! I was right!"
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Liz Mann - Feb 28, 2006 6:16 pm (#1255 of 1858)
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And Ginny hasn't had much screentime either. We haven't really seen her side by side with Harry since she woke up in the Chamber, and they don't look like that anymore.
Rupert and Emma, I think, look good together too.
Harry and Ginny
Harry and Hermione
Ron and Hermione
Actually, my theory is that Emma is going to look good with either of the boys, because the casting people almost certainly put the three of them together prior to hiring them to see if they had chemistry. And if they have chemistry as a group then it makes sense that they have chemestry as pairs.
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 1, 2006 2:06 pm (#1256 of 1858)
What's funny to me is that so many people think after HbP that the H/G and the R/Hr are now set in stone, when H/G have come together and PARTED at the end of that book,and R/Hr are not officially dating at the end, that we know of.
If Ginny dies, which is certainly possible, then I think it's Luna or Lone Hero for Harry providing he lives, which I do not feel is a sure thing either.
If we're going to bring the films into it, they did an extraordinary job hunting for a Luna actress, and Dan audtioned with her. He seems very determined to help Eveanna be a great Luna, since she told a French reporter he gave her his phone number. (God help the girl if anyone tried to get that phone number out of her!) That must have been funny..."Here, Dan, here's a couple of thousand girls. Help us pick one!" It was probably like going to a buffet for him.
I can't say much about Bonnie Wright, although she seems like a sweet child, because I think she looks younger than she is, and I don't feel I have seen enough of her acting to say I know how she would act in shippy scenes.
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Steve Newton - Mar 1, 2006 2:25 pm (#1257 of 1858)
Librarian
I don't actually think that Harry and Ginny have split. Ginny in no way agreed with him. She just sort of told him that she understood how he was feeling and that she wasn't surprised.
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The One - Mar 1, 2006 4:12 pm (#1258 of 1858)
Open minded sceptic
I do not agree there. They splitt. Question is whether they will reunite. Apparently Harry dropped her for security, and plan to be together again after this is all over, but...
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frogface - Mar 1, 2006 5:16 pm (#1259 of 1858)
I wouldn't really see the point in having them brought together and split apart for good in such a short amount of time. I know you don't like Ginny and Harry as a pairing Die Zimtzickle and The One, but I think they're a done deal. The split between them wasn't for the right reasons in my opinion. It mirrored what Lupin was trying to do in shunting away Tonks. Yet in the end he realised that it was foolish, and I think Harry will do the same before the end.
I also really do think Hermione and Ron are going to FINALLY get together in book 7. I think JKR has been working towards that since book one. I know people disagree on that, shipping is a touchy subject with a lot of readers but this is just how I see things, and I see them to be rather clear.
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Liz Mann - Mar 1, 2006 6:27 pm (#1260 of 1858)
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...shipping is a touchy subject with a lot of readers... - frogface
Yes, I know. Some people are just taking it way too personally, as is made clear by reading the Harry/Hermione section of the Mugglenet Wall of Shame. (And that petition that was created. )
What's funny to me is that so many people think after HbP that the H/G and the R/Hr are now set in stone...
The reason for that is probably: "I mean, that’s it. It’s done, isn’t it? We know. Yes, we do now know that it's Ron and Hermione." - J.K. Rowling, Mugglenet/Leaky Cauldron Interview.
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Puck - Mar 1, 2006 8:33 pm (#1261 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I doubt that Dan has any more info than we do when it comes to the end of the series, so I wouldn't put much stock in who he chooses to send time with personally. Who he likes off screen has nothing to do with what will happen on screen.
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 2, 2006 8:42 pm (#1262 of 1858)
Saying Ron and Hermione is set in stone doesn't automatically carry over to Harry and Ginny, in my opinion. I think R/Hr is the obvious ship, the one Jo said years ago she couldn't believe we hadn't guessed yet. If there is any kind of twist, I think it's going to come with Harry.
I don't deny the possibility of H/G coming back, I just think it was written poorly so far. Like I said, I'd give anything if it hadn't been all blazing looks and chest monsters and off screen connecting.
And they DID split as far as I'm concerned. If we are going to take Jo's interviews as part of the canon, she said they had to come together and part. To me, that's a split.
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Liz Mann - Mar 3, 2006 6:20 am (#1263 of 1858)
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I agree, they have split. But it just seems a bit silly for J.K. to have foreshadowed their relationship since book two (less obviously, perhaps, than R/Hr but the hints were still there) and then spent books five and six building it up, only to have them together for a matter of weeks before they split up again for good. Especially since J.K has said that she created Ginny as Harry's ideal girl. I think they will get together again at some point.
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Choices - Mar 3, 2006 11:48 am (#1264 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I agree Liz - I think their so called "split" is just temporary and they will be reunited.
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haymoni - Mar 3, 2006 12:13 pm (#1265 of 1858)
Here, here!!
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The One - Mar 4, 2006 11:19 am (#1266 of 1858)
Open minded sceptic
This is just a comment to the discussion on the Ginny thread, but as it goes only on relationship, I thought I would post it here.
We assume that Ginny's original fan girl crush on Harry has somewhere turned into True Love(t). My objection to that is that we see no indication whatsoever that this is the case, except that we need to assume that it has happened in order to make JKR's statements make sense.
It is in fact a bit worse, because once we actually see Ginny say something about her feelings for Harry:
Chapter 30 HBP
"I never really gave up on you," she said. "Not really. I always hoped..." ......
"I knew you wouldn't be happy unless you were hunting Voldemort. Maybe that's why I like you so much"
We learn that her current feelings are the follow-up of her fan girl crush, and that what she likes about Harry is his determination to fight Voldemort.
Her original crush has never ended, and apparently it has not changed much either.
Of course, this is not enough to prove that she is still nothing but a fan girl, but still I find it interesting that this is the only piece of information we ever get about Ginny's feelings for Harry. (Apart from the fact that Hermione has given her advice.)
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Liz Mann - Mar 4, 2006 5:02 pm (#1267 of 1858)
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In Order of the Phoenix, we learn from Hermione that Ginny has moved on. And Ginny's change in behaviour would suggest that too. But since she started talking and being herself around him, she's got to know him, and her feelings came back, except this time real ones because they're directed at the real him and not the celebrity. Or maybe they did never really go away, but the type of feelings she had changed when she got to know him.
Hasn't J.K. explained all this somewhere?
And I think what she meant by the second quote was that she admired his bravery and his determination and the fact that he can't be happy unless he's doing some kind of good.
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Catherine - Mar 4, 2006 5:07 pm (#1268 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
Hasn't J.K. explained all this somewhere? --Liz Mann
Yes, she has!
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 5, 2006 10:27 pm (#1269 of 1858)
Hary chose Cho for Quidditch and good looks. I don't see that Ginny is any different. I still loathe the chest monster and the blazing looks.
And if the love was set up from book two, (squicky idea, since she was eleven and he was just twelve, but I'll go with it) why was Voldemort able to possess Ginny when she was getting feelings for Harry? Voldemort could not stand to possess Harry when Harry felt genuine love.
By the way, Ginny NEVER said she moved on, or that her feelings came back. It's canon that she never gave up on him, not really. That's the bottom line. If she was trying to be more herself to get Harry to notice her, that's why so many people who don't like her feel she was using the other guys. Couldn't she learn to be herself when she was 13 or 14 with out having boyfriends involved? If you don't know who you are, in my opinion, you can't know what you really want.
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frogface - Mar 6, 2006 2:50 am (#1270 of 1858)
I think you're sort of missing the point that these kids are growing up. Harry has grown up a lot since he first noticed Cho, and he actually knows Ginny for who she is now, having spent two whole summers, christmas's, and times he's been in her company at where she hasn't been shying away from him. So I see that relationship as being a step up from his crush on Cho.
And anyway, we can't just judge the character's on what they say because that just isn't how things work. What people say and what they actually mean can to be very different things.
Lastly, a LOT of teenagers aren't entirely sure who they are but I can't see how that gets in the way of who they care for. Plenty of teenagers also have friends and boyfriends and girlfriends who they genuinely care for. And she wasn't trying to get Harry to notice her. She was just being herself in the hope that one day Harry might come around. Thats different. So I don't see her as dating Micheal or Dean as a tactic. Just a young girl exploring, which is perfectly normal.
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Liz Mann - Mar 6, 2006 6:40 am (#1271 of 1858)
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I think her dating Micheal and Dean was a way for her to try and move on from Harry. Hermione, after all, said she told Ginny to do just that.
And I liked the chest monster thing. Okay, there's a physical side to the relationship, there's one to every relationship, but that doesn't mean that's all it's about. I think Harry likes Ginny not only for her prettiness and her Quidditch skills, but also because of her personality - her daring, her rebelliousness, her sarcasm, her strength. I certainly think her bat bogey hexes impressed him.
As for why could Voldemort possess her when she was getting feelings for Harry, her feelings were not love back then. It was an eleven year old girl's crush. I don't know if they're love even now, or if his feelings toward her are either. That's the beauty of HP, it's realistic - people don't jump straight from indifference to true love like they do in Disney movies and fairy tales. Harry likes Ginny a lot, in a romantic way, and Ginny is the same back. Maybe it will develop into love later, but for the moment it's just a romantic liking. Harry loved Sirius (in a different way, obviously) and that's the feeling Voldemort couldn't stand when he tried to possess Harry.
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Esther Rose - Mar 6, 2006 7:57 am (#1272 of 1858)
Not to say that this is canon but perhaps. Just perhaps Harry sees the amount of courage Ginny has.
Ginny was the only other student that actually faced Tom Riddle(Voldemort) and still went to the MOM with Harry. I am not saying she knows all of what Harry is facing. but she understands a lot of what Harry is facing, probably more than anyone else. It's one thing to hear the stories like Ron and Hermione have. It's another thing completely to be stuck in the middle of it like Ginny has.
She probably has a lot of respect from Harry, not to mention an unspoken bond that began when he saved her in COS.
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Weeny Owl - Mar 6, 2006 11:31 am (#1273 of 1858)
Sixteen-year-old Tom Riddle possessed Ginny. The powerful and much-more-learned Voldemort didn't. They may be one and the same in many ways, but at sixteen Tom Riddle wasn't the same person as Lord Voldemort in the Ministry's atrium.
I don't see Ginny as using other guys. Even if, at only fourteen or fifteen, she hadn't quite given up on Harry, she is strong enough not to sit hidden away pining for someone. She made friends, dated a couple of boys, and became the person she truly is instead of the girl who had only a crush. She is growing, maturing, and becoming her own person, and when she started being herself, Harry started seeing her differently.
It's definitely realistic.
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Esther Rose - Mar 6, 2006 11:41 am (#1274 of 1858)
True Weeney Owl but it is still a step closer to experiencing Tom(Voldemort) than any of Harry's other friends have experienced to date.
And, if a dumb troll can unite Ron and Harry to Hermione then a bewitched diary certainly must have made some sort of connection between Harry and Ginny. =)
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Puck - Mar 6, 2006 12:30 pm (#1275 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I was watching PS/SS last night and noted Hermione making a comment about the dirt on Ron's nose. Molly had said the same to him as well (in the book, not the movie)
We have also mentioned that Ginny -in some ways- makes us think of Lily.
So, in the end, they could both end up marrying someone much like the girl that "married dear old Dad"!
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 6, 2006 1:41 pm (#1276 of 1858)
Ginny only faced Tom Riddle when he came out of the diary, and then she became unconcious. When he was using her she didn't know what she was doing. She didn't remember any of it. That is not the same as Voldemort using Harry, who was fully aware of what was going on, to get Dumbledore to kill Harry.
I agree they have possession in common, but it's not the same sort of possession, and Harry has never even admitted to Ginny that he was possessed at the DoM They need to have some serious converstaions about their experiences and motivations, not about tattoos and Quidditch, before I'll admit they have a serious relationship.
It's possible they will do that, but I haven't seen it yet, so that's why I'm hesitant to believe H/G is a final pairing. It certainly could be, but I'm not sold on it yet.
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Puck - Mar 6, 2006 2:00 pm (#1277 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Well, it isn't canon, but we can't say they haven't talked about such things. They spent much time together during the final weeks of the term, and we only caught a glimpse or two. JKR isn't writing romance, so she leaves out many of these kind of details. Personally I find it hard to imagine they haven't had any such serious discussions.
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Esther Rose - Mar 6, 2006 2:13 pm (#1278 of 1858)
But facing Tom Riddle(Voldemort) even if it is just before "taking a nap" is still more than what any of the other students experienced.
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haymoni - Mar 6, 2006 2:23 pm (#1279 of 1858)
Who'd want to talk about Voldy when you could be snogging???
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Weeny Owl - Mar 6, 2006 3:54 pm (#1280 of 1858)
True Weeney Owl but it is still a step closer to experiencing Tom(Voldemort) than any of Harry's other friends have experienced to date.
Oh, yes it is, Esther. I was just giving my view on why possessing Ginny and possessing Harry were miles apart. The memory-Tom and the true Lord Voldemort aren't quite the same, so possessing Ginny wouldn't be quite the problem for a sixteen-year-old that possessing Harry would for the complete and totally evil Voldemort.
The fact remains that Harry and Ginny have a bond no one else has, and they have each grown stronger after those experiences. That's part of why I feel they're ideally suited.
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Liz Mann - Mar 6, 2006 4:15 pm (#1281 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I agree, Weeny Owl. Not so much because they were both possessed by Voldemort but because they've both met and experienced him in some shape or form. Ron and Hermione have never even seen Voldemort... yet.
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Finn BV - Mar 9, 2006 3:42 pm (#1282 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
I never really post on this thread, so hi everybody!
Over on Jo's site one of the Easter Eggs shows a revision of OoP. One of the columns of the basic plot of the chapter refers to "Cho/Ginny," so for anybody who's still not convinced JKR had been trying to plan Harry/Ginny, there's a little proof from early stages of Book 5.
Just thought I'd let you all know.
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 9, 2006 6:46 pm (#1283 of 1858)
Having a chapter mostly about Cho/Ginny does not mean it has to be H/G in the end.
If it does, I don't see how...nothing personal meant.
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Finn BV - Mar 10, 2006 8:09 am (#1284 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
No, if you go to her site, she has different categories set up for things that might happen in the chapter, e.g. plot is the main one, but Order of the phoenix, DA, and Cho/Ginny are others. You sort of have to see it, but they're set up to notate the main plot points of the book, and which part happens in the chapter. I just saw it and sort of struck me.
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 10, 2006 9:06 am (#1285 of 1858)
I can't get the silly thing to work. I'm never any good at this kind of stuff. I usually just wait for someone to tell me what happened. I'm quite computer illiterate.
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TheSaint - Mar 12, 2006 4:56 am (#1286 of 1858)
Die..if you go tothe site thread, someone posted a link.
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The One - Mar 30, 2006 12:33 pm (#1287 of 1858)
Open minded sceptic
Ship thread has been dead for weeks! We can not have that.
As an old H/Hr shipper I still cannot make the OBHWF thing make sense, despite JKR's statements in the famous interviews.
An idea struck me: I have always felt that Ron needed to get his own life outside of the trio. He has always been overshadowed by his brothers, by Harry, even by Hermione. He needs to live at least parts of his life in a setting where he is not defined primarily as the kid brother of the Quidditch star Charlie, the brilliant Percy and Bill and the funny twins and the big brother of the cool babe Ginny. He also is the sidekick of Harry the hero and a friend of the extremely brilliant Hermione.
He started out making a name for him self as a Quddich player of course, that is one step in the right direction. Still it is on a team led by Harry.
When he once more was overshadowed by his friends, first by beeing invited to the big cool party as a hang-on on the brilliant Hermione, while the Hero Harry and the cool babe Ginny was invited by Slughorn himself, then by being reminded that he alone in his closest circle had no romantic experience whatsoever, he did another step in that direction, he got himself a girlfriend outside of the trio.
Most people consider that as a detour on his path towards Hermione, but what if it was not? What if the idea of getting a life as something else than the least spectacular trio member by looking for a girlfriend was a sound one, he just happened to go for the wrong girl?
Luna showed a certain interest in Ron in OotP. Is it a coincident that Ron starts to see Luna with fresh eyes, just as his relationship with Lavender approaches it disastrous end?
Remember that in GoF we learn that Luna seems to live not to far from the Weasley's, a piece of information that still isn't used for anything.
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Choices - Mar 30, 2006 1:18 pm (#1288 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
The One, I am still living in hope (probably false - LOL) that Harry and Hermione will still end up together. It definitely looks like Ginny and Harry, but I just can't let go of Harry and Hermione. :-(
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 30, 2006 6:31 pm (#1289 of 1858)
I can let go of Harruy/Hermione as I wasn't that hung up on it. I can't understand Harry/Ginny, though. What does SHE get out of it? He doesn't pay her that much attention, or discuss many important things wiht her. He didn't even give her consolation when he was bringing her out of the chamber, or when she was telling him about Bill. It was straight to business. It all just seemed superficial to me, mostly because of that wretched chest monster.
I wish I could see it, but I don't. I've read so many essays, Im cross eyed, but it still seems to me he didn't think of her as anything except a little sister, until he realized she was doing stuff with other guys.
I wanted to see more of the interaction, and not be told about it, ot worse yet, just be told to be quiet and accept it.
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Aimee Shawn - Mar 30, 2006 8:02 pm (#1290 of 1858)
Perhaps because Harry doesn't have much conversation with Ginny, I just don't see them as intellectual equals. Hermione challenges Harry, pushes him to excel and gives him moral and physical support to achieve his goals. Harry and Ginny's relationship seems purely physical. Great when you are young - as I seem to remember in my distant past! - but not much once the attraction has faded or the desire sated. Chest monsters don't hang around forever.
When I mentioned this several months ago, I got my head handed to me, maybe calmer heads are prevailing. I was really glad to read the last 3 posts! (Amazing how smart people who agree with your point of view are, isn't it?! LOL) Cannot for the life of me see a H/G 'ship. Would like to see H/Hr or I could even go for someone new entirely. Harry/Ginny just doesn't work for me as things are as of book 6.
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Liz Mann - Mar 31, 2006 2:23 am (#1291 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I think Harry and Ginny are interlectual equals, it's just that J.K. didn't spend all that much time showing their relationship because she was focusing on the horcruxes and didn't want HBP to be as long as OotP.
He doesn't pay her that much attention, or discuss many important things wiht her. He didn't even give her consolation when he was bringing her out of the chamber, or when she was telling him about Bill.
But that was long before he had any romantic interest in her. I'm sure he pays her much more attention now.
It all just seemed superficial to me, mostly because of that wretched chest monster.
I don't understand why people hate the chest monster so much. Okay, it's kinda cheesy but then teenage romance often is. It's just a reference to something primal inside him. And technically it was Harry who described it as that, so maybe J.K is saying something about Harry there. I thought it was cute.
But it still seems to me he didn't think of her as anything except a little sister, until he realized she was doing stuff with other guys.
It wasn't that, it was the fact that she started seeing other guys when she had decided to move on from her fan-girl-like crush on him. When she did that she started acting more naturally around him, showing her true self (the strong, confident girl rather than the shy, silly, pining-after-him girl). Seeing the real her (from OotP onwards) made Harry fall for her. I mean, how is he supposed to fall for her or see her as anything but Ron's little sister when she hardly ever talks to him? Likewise, how is she supposed to have anything but a fan-girl crush on him when she never talks to him? When she got over that crush she started talking to him which meant she fell for him again, but this time the real him.
But when he first started seeing the real her (in OotP) he was still interested in Cho, so any interest he had in Ginny would have gone unnoticed by him (and so by us since the books are from his POV) because he was preoccupied. I think his interest in Ginny was already developing, subconciously, in book five.
Harry and Ginny's relationship seems purely physical.
I don't think it is. Obviously there is a physical element, there is in every relationship, but it's not all about that. Harry's relationship with Cho was purely physical (and an admiration for her Quidditch skills), so having it be the same with Ginny wouldn't make sense because the point of Cho was to get Harry past that teenage 'looks-are-everything, physical-is-all-that-matters' ideology. Ginny has a lot of personality similarities with Harry, including their flaws (which Ginny does have even though some fans are wrongly accusing her of being perfect) - such as a firey temper, the ability to act rashly etc. Ginny also has the ability to keep Harry in line and his feet on the ground. She shares a love of mischief with him too. When Harry said he wanted to get into Umbridge's office Hermione was scolding and worrying over the very idea, while Ginny said, "Okay, I think that's possible."
I think Harry sees Hermione too much as a mother-figure. After all, his concience usually speaks to him in Hermione's voice. Not really something a man wants from his girlfriend.
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 31, 2006 7:26 am (#1292 of 1858)
Harry cetainly was in a relationship with Ginny was Bill was injured. He could have comforted her a little when he heard the news, even if it was just a hug, or an arm around her.
Ginny decided to date other guys, but she admits she had never given up on him, not really, so she was still pining for the boy who lived, even before she really got to know him one on one, so it still seems a bit superficial to me. If she had gotten over the crush, then they'd gotten to be friends, and then gotten together, I'd have no problem with it, but as long as she still had the crush, it makes it look a bit like she was just using the other gusy to bide her time until Harry noticed her. We still didn't see them talk that much, and I wish we could have.
Harry liked Cho because of Quidditch and her good looks. What's so different with Ginny?
Getting into Umbridge's office was a tactical move, not mischief to me, by the way.
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The One - Mar 31, 2006 8:09 am (#1293 of 1858)
Open minded sceptic
My dislike of the Harr7 Ginny ship and the Ron Hermione ship is quite different in nature.
There can be, and have been made tons and tons of points for and against the different shop, we see the character react to each other i different settings, and I understand tha people have strong opinions in one direction, while I have strong opinions in another.
The Harry/Ginny relationship is different. I do not really have strong opinions against it. It is nothing wrong with Ginny. It is nothing wrong with Harry's hormones going heywire over the pretty girl.
It is just that it is nothing in the description of Ginny or in the description of her relationship with Harry that gives me the impression that this is important. Ok, one teenager, the hero, snogs another teenager, the babe, and thats it. What else is new?
In all of the HBP Harry's relationship with Hermione and Ron is somewhat toned down. Ron and Hermione's disbeliefe with respect to Harry's Draco theories combined with Hermione's intense dislike of Harry's use of the potions book creates a certain distance, combined with the fact that a lot of the focus when the trio is working as a trio is on romantic problems between Ron and Hermione. The HBP is very much about Harry, DD, Draco and Snape. The two other trio mebers and the other students is mostly background.
Then, at the end of the story Harry gets a girlfriend. Does the author use the possibility to let the Hero speak to her, to see if she support her where his friends does not? No, she does not. At the end of the story we see noattempt at all of creating a bounding between Harry and his girlfriend. What we see is that at the end of the book the focus is turned back on the trio as a unit. We see Hermione wait to discuss trio things till after Ginny has left.
It looks like the Author puts effort ito saying that despite the trio going in the background in HBP, the trio will be very important in book 7. But the book also seems to say that a 16 year old hero is supossed to have a girl friend, but byond that Ginny is not really important.
This was a long and complicate post to say a simple thing: To me, the Ron/hermione ship is a ship that you may like or dislike, but it is there fo a reason, it serves purpose, and I understand that other likes it even if I am not to found of it.
Harry/Ginny is different, that one simply is not important.
And I feel that in this story, the Hero's girl friend should be important.
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Weeny Owl - Mar 31, 2006 10:06 am (#1294 of 1858)
Harry cetainly was in a relationship with Ginny was Bill was injured. He could have comforted her a little when he heard the news, even if it was just a hug, or an arm around her.
When Bill was injured, Harry had just seen Dumbledore killed.
JKR has put all sorts of subtle things in the book about Harry and Ginny, and part of that is that Harry spent most of the summer at the Burrow, and with Ginny being herself around him for nearly an entire summer, they each got to know the other as real people.
Harry's "chest monster" is simply a way of describing a growing attraction, and I didn't have a problem with it. It's no different than describing those feelings as a butterflies in the stomach.
As for Harry not discussing specific things with Ginny or for his girlfriend needing to be important, I just don't see it that way.
Harry is the main focus, and his dealings with his enemies are more of a secondary focus than anything else. He has Ron and Hermione, but usually at the end, he's alone. First book, Harry goes on alone to fight Quirrel. Second book, Harry goes on alone to fight diary Tom. Third book, Harry goes on alone to fight the dementors. Fourth book, Harry goes on alone even if Cedric is with him initially. Fifth book, Harry goes on alone but Neville shows up. Sixth book he's with Dumbledore but goes on alone to fight Snape.
Ginny was the one who came to get Harry and take him to the hospital wing. Even Hagrid wasn't getting through to him. Ginny no longer has a crush on Harry. She is over the silly, giddy, girls-following-Viktor fan club thing. She never gave up on him because her feelings for him were always there below the surface, and now that she's growing up and seeing Harry and not some fantasy, she can be Ginny around him.
Harry has seen a different Ginny - the true Ginny - since OotP, and after spending so much time with her during the summer, he isn't seeing a member of a fan club but the person she really is.
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Holly T. - Mar 31, 2006 10:22 am (#1295 of 1858)
I think when Ginny was in the DA Harry started seeing her as more of an equal instead of a younger sister-type figure who just always kind of there in the background. I also think the scene in the library with the Easter eggs is important to the development of the Harry/Ginny relationship. They interact like real friends, people who are comfortable with each other. Harry was never comfortable with Cho.
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Liz Mann - Mar 31, 2006 2:15 pm (#1296 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Weeny Owl - you put it better than me.
You can be mostly over someone but not entirely. A person who's mostly over their old crush can act normally around them and be comfortable, but they still wouldn't say no to getting together.
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frogface - Mar 31, 2006 3:22 pm (#1297 of 1858)
I agree, its not "a crush" anymore. The feelings stayed there but they developed. You don't spend five years in someones company without getting to know them pretty darn well. I think that it shows a lot of strength that instead of Ginny forgetting about Harry, her feelings remained and matured over a long time.
We can't assume that JKR intended us to see the relationship as unimportant because we aren't her. I personally think the H/G ship will turn out to be very important, and I know there are those who disagree. But those are just opinions.
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Liz Mann - Mar 31, 2006 3:51 pm (#1298 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
How important the relationship will ultimately be to the end of the series, I don't know. I certainly don't think that romance is the most important part of the plot. But there has been evidence that Harry's ability to love will be important, and this ability is displayed through his feelings for Ginny as well as his friendship with Ron and Hermione and others.
What I do definitely think is that this relationship is not over. J.K. spent too much time foreshadowing it and building up to it for it only to last a few weeks. I think Harry will miss Ginny a lot while he's off fighting Voldemort and I think Ginny will be present at the final battle.
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Finn BV - Mar 31, 2006 4:21 pm (#1299 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Maybe it should be said that the main difference between the girls-following-Krum and Harry and Ginny is that in the former 'ship, half of the involved parties are not sharing the attraction the other half has. Harry and Ginny are equally in love with each other, that they don't need to be falling for each other at every sight of the other, as Ron and Lavender's fling. If there's mutual love between two emotionally mature people -- especially these two who will be front-runners in the inevitable showdown -- then they won't be the type of 'ship where there are two people who won't let go of the other, who are constantly embraced, but they will be two people who love each other and know that they don't have to worry about losing the other's love if they "unlock" themselves from a hug or something.
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 31, 2006 7:58 pm (#1300 of 1858)
Where is the mutual love though? Harry never said he loved Ginny. She never said she loved him. He never confided in her about anything important. Even in the chocolate scene, he didn't say why he was upset, only that he wanted to talk to Sirius.
And I do not see anyone but Harry in the inevitable showdown. Harry's the prophecy boy. He has to do the job. Not Ginny, or Hermione, or Ron, or anyone else. The love he needs is the love you get when you believe in yourself, in who you are and what you have to do, in my opinion. Not the love you get when you practically ignore a girl for years, and she will still sit at your feet if you give her a snog in front of fifty people including her brother, and her ex.
And at 15 an 16, I would hardly consider any of the kids emotionally mature people. Harry and Ginny, together, were not mature at all. They were downright nasty sometimes. Jo said Ginny was compassionate right after writing a book where Ginny treated a lot of people terribly. Love SHOULD make us more compassionate people. Not high strung, temper tossing, pushy people who can't keep their priorities straight.
Where was she so mature? Pretending to vomit into her cereal bowl? Bringing a pet to school that was not on the approved school list? Hexing Zacharias? (God forbid anyone actually ask what happened in regards to something the whole wizarding world is wondering about!) Dissing Ron for his sexual inexperience? Talking down to Hermione, who has done nothing but help her? Crashing into Zacharias? Still acting like she has to learn to put up with Bill's wedding to Fleur, after Fleur's well done declaration of love in the hospital scene?
I don't see it, except maybe when she led Harry away from Dumbledore's body, and like I said, he tuned her out and did not try to comfort her or gain comfort from her. He just let her lead him off.
It's him, too. It was all about him in that scene, like it always is, which is what you get when you have a socially inept boyfriend like Harry. He can't connect with Ginny on a deep level. If he can, he hasn't yet. She's always got to be his support, his comfort, his little fan girl, whom he can always count on to come whenever he's ready for her, and drop when he has other things to do that he WON'T tell her about.
That's not romantic to me. It's pitiful. This relationship in HbP brought out the worst in both of them, and I hope it gets better in the last book.
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Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 1301 to 1350)
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haymoni - Mar 31, 2006 8:07 pm (#1301 of 1858)
I think all of the characters have moments of wisdom. There were times that I forgot that they were only 15 & 16, but then it came back to me.
This isn't a love story - it's a wizard story - a quest story.
But what's a story without a little bit of romance?
It isn't the main focus of the book, but if she wrote a story about kids going to school together for 7 years and there was no boy/girl thing going on, only the quest story, we'd be questioning that, just like we question the fact that nobody goes to the bathroom.
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Finn BV - Mar 31, 2006 8:21 pm (#1302 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
DZ, first of all, I was never very into 'shipping, so let me say that the outcome of the 'ships in HBP made me feel indifferent. I'm sorry that you were into a different Harry 'ship beforehand, because I was not (well, for a year or so after OoP I got into reuniting Harry & Cho, but that's another story ) and that obviously changes our perspectives.
Also, before we get into 'ships, I don't think it will be Harry and Ginny who battle with Voldemort, I just mean that I believe Ginny will help Harry in some way to the showdown. If we want to discuss that further, we can take it to another thread.
Now, think on a relative basis. I should amend my previous post so that it reads "If there's mutual love between two more emotionally mature people," that is, in comparison to somebody like Lavender -- or, perhaps, Ron --, then they can handle a relationship where it isn't a passionate kiss every three seconds -- exaggeration, I know, but to give you the kind of relationship I am talking about, I felt I should describe it this way.
Harry never said he loved Ginny. She never said she loved him.
I think it is pretty clear from all the clues Jo gave us in Book 6 alone -- not to mention previous books -- that Harry needs to fall for Ginny. Think about all the times in this book that he feels his stomach squirming because he just sees Ginny. And the flower aroma from the Burrow... Harry definitely has a yearning for Ginny. While I don't have the time to go look for it in my copy of the book, Ginny certainly returns this feeling.
I think that Ginny's acceptance of Harry's not wanting to make them a literally "attached" couple is where she shows her maturity. Some girls might take this as a rejection. But Ginny understands, she's been through Voldemort in some form before, she's got to accept this, which she does without putting up any sort of a fight.
I hope that makes sense. That's the best I can explain it.
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Puck - Mar 31, 2006 8:24 pm (#1303 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
LOL, Haymoni! Thanks to Fred and George's store window we now know the reason why they aren't going to the bathroom!
We need to remember that these aren't ideal heros. They aren't written to be perfect, but to be real. This is how most teenagers act. Kissing people, teasing brothers for not ever kissing anyone, feeling jealousy, etc.... If it was all too "perfect" JKR would have never sucked in all those "non readers" into her HP world. Kids started reading the books because the relate to the characters. Harry's ideal girl isn't truly ideal, she's just right for him. And if some of the relationship seems superficial, it's because they are teenagers. And Harry finds comfot in Ginny. Perhaps that is why he doesn't tell her everything. He needs time to talk about other things, to feel "normal". That doesn't mean he doesn't find her important, or an equal. It's just that he needs one little part of his life that is not about fighting LV.
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Lina - Apr 1, 2006 1:02 am (#1304 of 1858)
Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Finn (@ your post #1299), now I'm really starting to think that you lie about your age...
Die Zimtzicke, you just keep saying that Harry never confided in Ginny about anything important. No matter how much some of us try to show you situations from books where we can see that Harry does confide in Ginny about some things that are really important to him, you choose not to see them. At the moments that none of his friends noticed that something was bothering him or didn't think they wanted to know why he was acting the way he was, she was there, she asked him and she didn't want to give up without getting some answers. Like when she helped him to talk to Sirius (she just thought that it was important, unlike Hermione) or when she told him that he shouldn't be hiding from the others because he thought that he was possessed by Voldemort and she showed him that he wasn't possessed, unlike her. That shows to me that she feels much better what is going on in Harry than Ron and Hermione together.
While, why doesn't Harry see what is going on with Ginny, well, I have a simple explanation: he is a boy. I don't see it as romantic or pitiful, just realistic. He is fortunate enough that she is patient and she can show him in a nice way that he is selfish. And he doesn't want to be selfish, so I can see her helping him to understand her better. And I can see this as realistic too. Because there exist patient girls in the world. I wouldn't like the story that would show some ideal people. I like it because it shows that the good people have the flaws too.
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Weeny Owl - Apr 1, 2006 1:56 am (#1305 of 1858)
I don't see it, except maybe when she led Harry away from Dumbledore's body, and like I said, he tuned her out and did not try to comfort her or gain comfort from her. He just let her lead him off.
Again, Harry had just seen Dumbledore being killed, and he was kneeling by the body. He was in shock, and while Bill's injuries might be serious, Ginny knew Bill was alive. Harry knew Dumbledore was dead. If he hadn't reacted the way he did, it would seem cold and heartless to me. Ginny came to him when he needed her. She has her entire family for comfort, and Harry has only his friends. She was his friend in that moment more than a girlfriend.
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Liz Mann - Apr 1, 2006 4:43 am (#1306 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I agree. It's not that Harry didn't care that Bill had been injured it's that Harry was in shock and grieving himself. When people are grieving they become selfish, whether they want to be or not. And Ginny would have been in shock and grieving about Dumbledore too, which is why she understood, but since she wasn't as close to him as Harry was (he wasn't her mentor) her head was clear enough that she could take care of Harry at that moment. But taking care of him does not mean fussing over him. Harry doesn't like being fussed over, anyway.
I think Harry is the kind of person who would not be comfortable with public displays of affection (the kiss not withstanding because he went into a little world of his own there and forgot all about the other people in the room). Really, when you think about it, he's not entirely comfortable with private displays of affection either (he gets awkward whenever Hermione hugs him - though he's probably getting used to that now since she's done it so often). This makes sense considering he has never had affection throughout his childhood (stupid Dursleys ). And really it might not even occur to him to hug her in that moment.
Harry and Ginny certainly share mutual feelings for each other. Whether or not those feelings are actual full-blown love is irrelevant really. Maybe J.K. should have shown them talking more, but she was concentrating on other, more important, things. If she had included everything that she could have included, the book would have been another OotP length installement (not that we would have complained, of course ).
And I think that they are mature for their age. Ginny has her flaws. She had a go at Ron when he annoyed her. She had a go at Zacharias when he annoyed her. But then Harry has a go at people who annoy him too. Are these features immature or just flaws that an adult can have too?
I certainly think that Harry and Ginny are on the same level.
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The One - Apr 1, 2006 10:25 am (#1307 of 1858)
Open minded sceptic
I TOLD YOU SO!!!!! I so flipping told you so. (Sorry about language..)
JKR, an BBC interview today, made a lot of statements clearly indicating that she has been “a bit deceptive” in her statements after the HBP was released.
Among other things she says that “I was quite surprised that no one noticed that the ‘Anvil sized hints’ I talked about had very much to do with Hermione’s concern for Harry in ‘Goblet’ and Phoenix’”
Read the entire interview here
Predictable, some sore losers already plan to set up a protest site and collect the “true fans” reactions to this. Apparently they plan to write to JKR and try to persuade her to change her plans.
Pretty lame if you ask me, but if you want, you are supposed to send an email to:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
(See? I am generous in the moment of triumph!!)
*Does happy dance while the mistaken ones prepare their futile emails*
Edited to remove word the mods might dislike, correction, WOULD dislike.
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frogface - Apr 1, 2006 10:58 am (#1308 of 1858)
Are you sure this is genuine? It is april fool's day after all, and you do encounter a lot of fake information on the Internet. Remember all the fake titles and rumours that JKR has denied via her own website? Besides why would she say one thing in an interview only to tell us something contrary to that in a later interview? By the way your link doesn't work.
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The One - Apr 1, 2006 11:01 am (#1309 of 1858)
Open minded sceptic
The link worked when I tested it just after posting. Looks like site is busy now. Looked genuine to me.
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Choices - Apr 1, 2006 11:04 am (#1310 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I get a message saying the server is busy.
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Aimee Shawn - Apr 1, 2006 11:14 am (#1311 of 1858)
I can't get through either, message says server is busy. Give us the gist of the message, please, The One. My curiosity's running out my ears!
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frogface - Apr 1, 2006 11:16 am (#1312 of 1858)
You sure its geniune? Even though bowu - the sites name, stands for "blondes of the world unite". Also I went onto the BBC website and there isn't anything mentioning an interview with JKR. They always mention if it if they've had an interview with her.
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Eponine - Apr 1, 2006 12:16 pm (#1313 of 1858)
Well, considering how Emerson and Melissa have finally announced their engagement, and several other things of a rather dubious nature have been posted to the internet today, I'm rather inclined to take anything like this with a very very very large grain of salt.
In other words, it's a joke. April Fool's is the day that many major websites post pranks of all kinds.
Beyond the fact that any interview with Jo is advertised well in advance, BBC would have this posted as well. This little website that has no connection with BBC would not have exclusive rights to such an interview.
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Finn BV - Apr 1, 2006 2:16 pm (#1314 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Also, the site's domain is Blondes of the World Unite. That's not what I would call the a reliable source.
Thanks to Lina @ #1304.
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Liz Mann - Apr 1, 2006 3:48 pm (#1315 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
It's an April Fool's joke.
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Aimee Shawn - Apr 1, 2006 4:05 pm (#1316 of 1858)
I've been all over the web trying to confirm JKR's interview either today or yesterday and it just didn't happen. I think, whatever "it" was, simply was a large practical joke to celebrate the day.
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Liz Mann - Apr 1, 2006 4:45 pm (#1317 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I don't think it really needs confirming. I mean, anyone who's read that interview will know that's not what she was referring to.
Yes, we do now know that it's Ron and Hermione. I do feel that I have dropped heavy hints. ANVIL-sized, actually, hints, prior to this point.
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Finn BV - Apr 1, 2006 4:48 pm (#1318 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
That's a pretty good way of saying it Liz. Not a whole lot of different ways to interpet that.
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haymoni - Apr 1, 2006 6:45 pm (#1319 of 1858)
Guess we didn't need a thread, huh Finn???
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Aimee Shawn - Apr 1, 2006 7:21 pm (#1320 of 1858)
Help! What does the "interview" supposedly say? I've tried to connect but keep getting server busy signals. Admittedly, haven't worked too hard on it since I couldn't confirm it on BBC or anywhere else, but I am curious about the content. Thanx, Nosey Aimee
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Liz Mann - Apr 2, 2006 10:05 am (#1321 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
It's still saying the server's busy. If it was working I'm sure by now it would say that it's a joke, because you're supposed to fess up after midday on April 1st. Even LeakyMug have given in now.
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The One - Apr 2, 2006 1:03 pm (#1322 of 1858)
Open minded sceptic
hey, I confess!!
The busy message is a fake, there is no interview.
Simpler to make a fake busy message then to write a fake interview..
Sorry I did not confess earlier, but when I went offline in Norway it was still a lot left of day in the US.
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Liz Mann - Apr 3, 2006 2:27 pm (#1323 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I thought it was probably you, The One! Nice one.
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Catherine - Jun 21, 2006 1:31 pm (#1324 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
I've been thinking about Slughorn's reference to "obsessive love" and wondered if this would be shown in the final book.
I tried to think of what characters this could apply to, and I wondered if it could be about Snape. There are many Forum members who think that Snape cared for Lily, but after HbP I wondered if perhaps Narcissa was really the one.
Now, it could have simply been about Merope Gaunt and her feelings for Tom Riddle, Sr., which would be the obvious example. I just wonder if that's the only example.
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Liz Mann - Jun 22, 2006 5:43 am (#1325 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Unless Voldemort used to be in love with someone. That would actually explain a lot.
I like the idea of Snape being in love with Lily and that being the reason he hates Harry so much.
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Elanor - Jun 22, 2006 11:57 am (#1326 of 1858)
I've been wondering about that sentence too Catherine! Actually, I have posted something about it on the alchemy thread some months ago:
"About chapter 15, I've been wondering about Ginny's and Luna's roles in Harry's journey. IMO, and only IMO, I still think there is something fishy about Ginny, something that's not completely right. I can't help but think that Slughorn's words in chapter 9, about Amortensia being "the most dangerous and powerful potion in this room" and that: "When you have seen as much of life as I have, you will not underestimate the power of obsessive love" (p.177) were really important for our story, as are the love potions clues, starting with Molly talking about her making some when she was young, and with Fred and George's ones. There must be more to this than just Romilda Vane's feeble attempts to give some to Harry! Now, has Ginny really used a love potion on Harry or is it just a hint that her "obsessive love" can become "dangerous" (i.e. her doing something foolish thinking it would help Harry in book 7, or something like that) at some point... " (from post #1143, here)
And the more I think about it, the more I think Ginny's love for Harry could qualify as "obsessive"! And I am very worried for her in book 7...
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Liz Mann - Jun 22, 2006 12:57 pm (#1327 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
J.K. said that she wanted Harry to have his ideal girl, and that that girl is Ginny. J.K.'s not going to have him meet his ideal girl and then have it turn out that there's something fishy or suspicious about her, not after everything else Harry's been through. She never does anything that isn't necessary, especially in the misery department.
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haymoni - Jun 22, 2006 1:07 pm (#1328 of 1858)
I'm guessing once that Valentine backfired, Ginny gave up on trying to coerce Harry into liking her.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jun 22, 2006 6:46 pm (#1329 of 1858)
Jo wants Harry to have his ideal girl? Unless I missed something recently, Jo said Harry and Ginny were meant to come together and part, and that was her last word on the subject. If she had indeed, confirmed positively that it will be H/G at the end of book seven, I want a link to that!
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Liz Mann - Jun 23, 2006 7:34 am (#1330 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Well she can't exactly say that it will be H/G at the end of the book, can she, because that would be giving away that they will be alive at the end of the book. She has said that she meant for Harry and Ginny to come together and part, which they have already, but that doesn't mean they won't get back together. And she did also say that Ginny was Harry's ideal girl.
Quotage from the Leaky/Mugglenet interview:
MA: Had you been trying to get them —
JKR: Well I always knew that that was going to happen, that they were going to come together and then part.
ES: Were you always -----ing it? [We can’t figure out what Emerson actually said here.]
JKR: Well, no, not really, because the plan was, which I really hope I fulfilled, is that the reader, like Harry, would gradually discover Ginny as pretty much the ideal girl for Harry. She's tough, not in an unpleasant way, but she's gutsy. He needs to be with someone who can stand the demands of being with Harry Potter, because he's a scary boyfriend in a lot of ways. He's a marked man. I think she's funny, and I think that she's very warm and compassionate. These are all things that Harry requires in his ideal woman. But, I felt — and I'm talking years ago when all this was planned — initially, she's terrified by his image. I mean, he's a bit of a rock god to her when she sees him first, at 10 or 11, and he's this famous boy. So Ginny had to go through a journey as well. And rather like with Ron, I didn’t want Ginny to be the first girl that Harry ever kissed. That's something I meant to say, and it's kind of tied in.
One of the ways in which I tried to show that Harry has done a lot of growing up — in “Phoenix,” remember when Cho comes into the compartment, and he thinks, ‘I wish I could have been discovered sitting with better people,’ basically? He's with Luna and Neville. So literally the identical thing happens in “Prince,” and he's with Luna and Neville again, but this time, he has grown up, and as far as he's concerned he is with two of the coolest people on the train. They may not look that cool. Harry has really grown. And I feel that Ginny and Harry, in this book, they are total equals. They are worthy of each other. They've both gone through a big emotional journey, and they've really got over a lot of delusions, to use your word, together. So, I enjoyed writing that. I really like Ginny as a character.
So yeah, she said both.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jun 23, 2006 5:25 pm (#1331 of 1858)
They were equals in my opinion, because they were both jerks to pretty much everyone in HBP. They did deserve each other in that sense. I just can't stand the way they are when they're together. Maybe it's because I really do think either Ginny will die, or that Harry is so intertwined with Voldemort that he will have to die to win. I'm a big proponent of the idea that he may need to lay down his life for his friends.
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Ponine - Jun 23, 2006 7:54 pm (#1332 of 1858)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
I have to disagree with you there, Die Zimtzicke -- I don't think Ginny and Harry were jerks to everyone in HBP at all! I mean -- LOL -- they're teenagers, struggling with hormones and friends and love and evil and death and loneliness and grief and the occasional possession or merging of minds... Between Ron's treatment of Hermione and Lavender, Hermione's Hitchcock moment, Ginny lashing out at her brother for humiliating her, and the Weasley kids' treatment of Percy, I think they are all acting pretty normally to both normal and abnormal circumstances. Ideal behavior, not, probably not at all, but I don't think most human behavior is. I fear that you might be on to something when you think one of them will die, but I really hope not, because I adore all four of them!
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Liz Mann - Jun 25, 2006 7:02 am (#1333 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I just have this feeling that Ginny won't die. I don't know what it is. And as long as she doesn't die then Harry will have a reason to live because he'll have some kind of happiness to meet him on the other side. However, whether J.K. will choose to let that happen or not is another matter, because I'm still not sure whether Harry will die or not. I can find evidence for both ways.
And I agree, that is typical teenage behaviour.
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Mediwitch - Jun 25, 2006 3:57 pm (#1334 of 1858)
"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
Another vote here for "normal" adolescent behavior. Both Mr. Mediwitch and I spend as much time with children and adolescents as we do with each other, and we see this kind of behavior on a daily basis. Ponine, I think you hit the nail right on the head.
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Ponine - Jun 25, 2006 9:13 pm (#1335 of 1858)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Thanks, Mediwitch I'd like to think so -- One of these reasons I like the books so much is the fact that the characters are so innately human, in thoughts, behavior, humor and types...
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Liz Mann - Jul 21, 2006 2:03 pm (#1336 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I've just found an essay on The Leaky Cauldron that I think perfectly describes why Harry and Ginny make a good couple, and why Harry is attracted to Ginny and not to Hermione.
Follow the directions thus: Go to The Leaky Cauldron, find the link to the Scribbulus section on the right hand side, click on 'Index of Essays', scroll down to 'Issue 2' and find the heading "Why Harry picked Ginny as a romantic partner".
I would rate this essay PG.
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Honour - Jul 21, 2006 6:29 pm (#1337 of 1858)
The real reason Harry picked Ginny is because JKR wrote it that way! There were no choices, no "picking" one or the other. JKR engineered/planned it that way a "fait acompli" ... All those still struggling with it "should build a bridge" and this is said with much love ...
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TheSaint - Jul 21, 2006 7:24 pm (#1338 of 1858)
ROFL...sure it is Honour.
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Liz Mann - Jul 22, 2006 6:21 am (#1339 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
The real reason Harry picked Ginny is because JKR wrote it that way! There were no choices, no "picking" one or the other.
Yes, I know that, Honour. What the person's saying is that this is why the characters Ginny and Harry are right together (as J.K. has written them), and why Harry and Hermione are incompatible.
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TheSaint - Jul 22, 2006 9:10 am (#1340 of 1858)
'Ginny is the perfect girl for Harry.' Sure she is, at the age of 16 and 17. Does this mean the rest of his life? I surely would not be involved now with the guys I dated in High School. I know some people marry thier high school sweethearts, but it is rare and the odds of it lasting are even more remote.
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Honour - Jul 22, 2006 8:58 pm (#1341 of 1858)
Sorry Liz Mann if my post sounded a bit short, I've always had a bug bear pet hate about the knowledge that JKR had predisposed the Harry character to fall inlove with the Ginny character. Then when I started to realise that Ginny shared many of Lily's characteristics as well as being similar in looks to her, eeeooower! I think there are therapists for that!
I have never been a fan of the Harry/Ginny ship but that's just me, I don't need to be convinced of how compatible they are, like I said, it is a fait acompli, just one of those things you deal with and move on, no biggy
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Liz Mann - Jul 23, 2006 1:32 pm (#1342 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I know some people marry thier high school sweethearts, but it is rare and the odds of it lasting are even more remote.
That's true. It worked for Molly and Arthur, though. Who knows whether Lily and James would have worked out.
Then when I started to realise that Ginny shared many of Lily's characteristics as well as being similar in looks to her, eeeooower! I think there are therapists for that!
Lol! Well, Freud wouldn't have been surprised.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 27, 2006 9:52 pm (#1343 of 1858)
Jo can tell us anything in an interview, but if we don't see it in the books, then we don't see it. If she'd put more H/G into the books, and less of it in interviews, maybe I could buy it. I just can't stand the way Ginny is written, so why would I want her with Harry?
And if we're going to make Jo's interviews canon, she did say they had to come together and part, did she not?
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Puck - Jul 28, 2006 5:35 am (#1344 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I think the parting is to show yet another sacrifice that Harry makes.
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Liz Mann - Jul 28, 2006 4:00 pm (#1345 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I think there was a lot of hints towards Harry and Ginny, just not glaring ones - the paralell between them and Harry's parents, Ginny's crush, little moments where they'd share an un-spoken joke and the fact that Ginny is the only one of Harry's friends who has met Voldemort and knows what it's like to deal with him first hand.
Admittedly, there wasn't a whole lot of it before book five, but in five and six I think there was sufficient development. I think Harry started to notice her in book five but he was still hung up on Cho and so didn't realise it until after he and Cho were over.
Well, anyway, maybe there'll be enough of Harry and Ginny in book seven that it'll make up for any lack of build up to the relationship there might have been. J.K. does occasionally browse through the fansites, so maybe she'll take people's comments into consideration. She won't change anything drastic, obviously, I mean she won't get rid of the H/G relationship all together, but she can still keep comments in mind.
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TheSaint - Jul 28, 2006 4:27 pm (#1346 of 1858)
I mean she won't get rid of the H/G relationship all together, but she can still keep comments in mind.
I hope not...I want to read her story. No outside influence!
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Steve Newton - Jul 28, 2006 5:02 pm (#1347 of 1858)
Librarian
I can't see Ginny breaking off the relationship simply because Harry said so. She may skulk in the background but she will be with him.
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Choices - Jul 28, 2006 6:28 pm (#1348 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I am re-reading the series and am in book 2 now. There are major hints of things to come in later books and one that sticks out is Draco's comment in the book store when Ginny speaks up for Harry...."Got yourself a girlfriend, Potter?" Then later the Valentine's Day poem (from Ginny?) delivered to Harry in the hallway - something about his eyes being as green as a freshly pickled toad. LOL But I still find it curious that Ginny (?) would have used the phrase "Dark Lord" in the poem. We have yet to discover who actually sent the poem - sometimes I think it was really Draco who sent it to publicly embarrass Harry. Draco would most likely use the phrase "DarK Lord", whereas I don't think Ginny would.
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TheSaint - Jul 29, 2006 12:36 pm (#1349 of 1858)
In Book 2 Ginny sent Harry the valentine of her own volition. [Read the entire quote from the Leaky Cauldron, 2005] From Madame Scoop's Website. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
It was Ginny.
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Liz Mann - Jul 29, 2006 1:45 pm (#1350 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
His eyes are as green as a fresh-pickled toad,
His hair is as dark as a blackboard,
I wish he was mine, he's really divine,
The hero who conqured You-Know-Who
It just doesn't work. I think J.K. used Dark Lord simply because it fit the tune and it rhymed with blackboard.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I think all of the characters have moments of wisdom. There were times that I forgot that they were only 15 & 16, but then it came back to me.
This isn't a love story - it's a wizard story - a quest story.
But what's a story without a little bit of romance?
It isn't the main focus of the book, but if she wrote a story about kids going to school together for 7 years and there was no boy/girl thing going on, only the quest story, we'd be questioning that, just like we question the fact that nobody goes to the bathroom.
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Finn BV - Mar 31, 2006 8:21 pm (#1302 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
DZ, first of all, I was never very into 'shipping, so let me say that the outcome of the 'ships in HBP made me feel indifferent. I'm sorry that you were into a different Harry 'ship beforehand, because I was not (well, for a year or so after OoP I got into reuniting Harry & Cho, but that's another story ) and that obviously changes our perspectives.
Also, before we get into 'ships, I don't think it will be Harry and Ginny who battle with Voldemort, I just mean that I believe Ginny will help Harry in some way to the showdown. If we want to discuss that further, we can take it to another thread.
Now, think on a relative basis. I should amend my previous post so that it reads "If there's mutual love between two more emotionally mature people," that is, in comparison to somebody like Lavender -- or, perhaps, Ron --, then they can handle a relationship where it isn't a passionate kiss every three seconds -- exaggeration, I know, but to give you the kind of relationship I am talking about, I felt I should describe it this way.
Harry never said he loved Ginny. She never said she loved him.
I think it is pretty clear from all the clues Jo gave us in Book 6 alone -- not to mention previous books -- that Harry needs to fall for Ginny. Think about all the times in this book that he feels his stomach squirming because he just sees Ginny. And the flower aroma from the Burrow... Harry definitely has a yearning for Ginny. While I don't have the time to go look for it in my copy of the book, Ginny certainly returns this feeling.
I think that Ginny's acceptance of Harry's not wanting to make them a literally "attached" couple is where she shows her maturity. Some girls might take this as a rejection. But Ginny understands, she's been through Voldemort in some form before, she's got to accept this, which she does without putting up any sort of a fight.
I hope that makes sense. That's the best I can explain it.
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Puck - Mar 31, 2006 8:24 pm (#1303 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
LOL, Haymoni! Thanks to Fred and George's store window we now know the reason why they aren't going to the bathroom!
We need to remember that these aren't ideal heros. They aren't written to be perfect, but to be real. This is how most teenagers act. Kissing people, teasing brothers for not ever kissing anyone, feeling jealousy, etc.... If it was all too "perfect" JKR would have never sucked in all those "non readers" into her HP world. Kids started reading the books because the relate to the characters. Harry's ideal girl isn't truly ideal, she's just right for him. And if some of the relationship seems superficial, it's because they are teenagers. And Harry finds comfot in Ginny. Perhaps that is why he doesn't tell her everything. He needs time to talk about other things, to feel "normal". That doesn't mean he doesn't find her important, or an equal. It's just that he needs one little part of his life that is not about fighting LV.
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Lina - Apr 1, 2006 1:02 am (#1304 of 1858)
Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Finn (@ your post #1299), now I'm really starting to think that you lie about your age...
Die Zimtzicke, you just keep saying that Harry never confided in Ginny about anything important. No matter how much some of us try to show you situations from books where we can see that Harry does confide in Ginny about some things that are really important to him, you choose not to see them. At the moments that none of his friends noticed that something was bothering him or didn't think they wanted to know why he was acting the way he was, she was there, she asked him and she didn't want to give up without getting some answers. Like when she helped him to talk to Sirius (she just thought that it was important, unlike Hermione) or when she told him that he shouldn't be hiding from the others because he thought that he was possessed by Voldemort and she showed him that he wasn't possessed, unlike her. That shows to me that she feels much better what is going on in Harry than Ron and Hermione together.
While, why doesn't Harry see what is going on with Ginny, well, I have a simple explanation: he is a boy. I don't see it as romantic or pitiful, just realistic. He is fortunate enough that she is patient and she can show him in a nice way that he is selfish. And he doesn't want to be selfish, so I can see her helping him to understand her better. And I can see this as realistic too. Because there exist patient girls in the world. I wouldn't like the story that would show some ideal people. I like it because it shows that the good people have the flaws too.
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Weeny Owl - Apr 1, 2006 1:56 am (#1305 of 1858)
I don't see it, except maybe when she led Harry away from Dumbledore's body, and like I said, he tuned her out and did not try to comfort her or gain comfort from her. He just let her lead him off.
Again, Harry had just seen Dumbledore being killed, and he was kneeling by the body. He was in shock, and while Bill's injuries might be serious, Ginny knew Bill was alive. Harry knew Dumbledore was dead. If he hadn't reacted the way he did, it would seem cold and heartless to me. Ginny came to him when he needed her. She has her entire family for comfort, and Harry has only his friends. She was his friend in that moment more than a girlfriend.
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Liz Mann - Apr 1, 2006 4:43 am (#1306 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I agree. It's not that Harry didn't care that Bill had been injured it's that Harry was in shock and grieving himself. When people are grieving they become selfish, whether they want to be or not. And Ginny would have been in shock and grieving about Dumbledore too, which is why she understood, but since she wasn't as close to him as Harry was (he wasn't her mentor) her head was clear enough that she could take care of Harry at that moment. But taking care of him does not mean fussing over him. Harry doesn't like being fussed over, anyway.
I think Harry is the kind of person who would not be comfortable with public displays of affection (the kiss not withstanding because he went into a little world of his own there and forgot all about the other people in the room). Really, when you think about it, he's not entirely comfortable with private displays of affection either (he gets awkward whenever Hermione hugs him - though he's probably getting used to that now since she's done it so often). This makes sense considering he has never had affection throughout his childhood (stupid Dursleys ). And really it might not even occur to him to hug her in that moment.
Harry and Ginny certainly share mutual feelings for each other. Whether or not those feelings are actual full-blown love is irrelevant really. Maybe J.K. should have shown them talking more, but she was concentrating on other, more important, things. If she had included everything that she could have included, the book would have been another OotP length installement (not that we would have complained, of course ).
And I think that they are mature for their age. Ginny has her flaws. She had a go at Ron when he annoyed her. She had a go at Zacharias when he annoyed her. But then Harry has a go at people who annoy him too. Are these features immature or just flaws that an adult can have too?
I certainly think that Harry and Ginny are on the same level.
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The One - Apr 1, 2006 10:25 am (#1307 of 1858)
Open minded sceptic
I TOLD YOU SO!!!!! I so flipping told you so. (Sorry about language..)
JKR, an BBC interview today, made a lot of statements clearly indicating that she has been “a bit deceptive” in her statements after the HBP was released.
Among other things she says that “I was quite surprised that no one noticed that the ‘Anvil sized hints’ I talked about had very much to do with Hermione’s concern for Harry in ‘Goblet’ and Phoenix’”
Read the entire interview here
Predictable, some sore losers already plan to set up a protest site and collect the “true fans” reactions to this. Apparently they plan to write to JKR and try to persuade her to change her plans.
Pretty lame if you ask me, but if you want, you are supposed to send an email to:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
(See? I am generous in the moment of triumph!!)
*Does happy dance while the mistaken ones prepare their futile emails*
Edited to remove word the mods might dislike, correction, WOULD dislike.
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frogface - Apr 1, 2006 10:58 am (#1308 of 1858)
Are you sure this is genuine? It is april fool's day after all, and you do encounter a lot of fake information on the Internet. Remember all the fake titles and rumours that JKR has denied via her own website? Besides why would she say one thing in an interview only to tell us something contrary to that in a later interview? By the way your link doesn't work.
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The One - Apr 1, 2006 11:01 am (#1309 of 1858)
Open minded sceptic
The link worked when I tested it just after posting. Looks like site is busy now. Looked genuine to me.
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Choices - Apr 1, 2006 11:04 am (#1310 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I get a message saying the server is busy.
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Aimee Shawn - Apr 1, 2006 11:14 am (#1311 of 1858)
I can't get through either, message says server is busy. Give us the gist of the message, please, The One. My curiosity's running out my ears!
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frogface - Apr 1, 2006 11:16 am (#1312 of 1858)
You sure its geniune? Even though bowu - the sites name, stands for "blondes of the world unite". Also I went onto the BBC website and there isn't anything mentioning an interview with JKR. They always mention if it if they've had an interview with her.
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Eponine - Apr 1, 2006 12:16 pm (#1313 of 1858)
Well, considering how Emerson and Melissa have finally announced their engagement, and several other things of a rather dubious nature have been posted to the internet today, I'm rather inclined to take anything like this with a very very very large grain of salt.
In other words, it's a joke. April Fool's is the day that many major websites post pranks of all kinds.
Beyond the fact that any interview with Jo is advertised well in advance, BBC would have this posted as well. This little website that has no connection with BBC would not have exclusive rights to such an interview.
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Finn BV - Apr 1, 2006 2:16 pm (#1314 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Also, the site's domain is Blondes of the World Unite. That's not what I would call the a reliable source.
Thanks to Lina @ #1304.
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Liz Mann - Apr 1, 2006 3:48 pm (#1315 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
It's an April Fool's joke.
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Aimee Shawn - Apr 1, 2006 4:05 pm (#1316 of 1858)
I've been all over the web trying to confirm JKR's interview either today or yesterday and it just didn't happen. I think, whatever "it" was, simply was a large practical joke to celebrate the day.
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Liz Mann - Apr 1, 2006 4:45 pm (#1317 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I don't think it really needs confirming. I mean, anyone who's read that interview will know that's not what she was referring to.
Yes, we do now know that it's Ron and Hermione. I do feel that I have dropped heavy hints. ANVIL-sized, actually, hints, prior to this point.
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Finn BV - Apr 1, 2006 4:48 pm (#1318 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
That's a pretty good way of saying it Liz. Not a whole lot of different ways to interpet that.
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haymoni - Apr 1, 2006 6:45 pm (#1319 of 1858)
Guess we didn't need a thread, huh Finn???
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Aimee Shawn - Apr 1, 2006 7:21 pm (#1320 of 1858)
Help! What does the "interview" supposedly say? I've tried to connect but keep getting server busy signals. Admittedly, haven't worked too hard on it since I couldn't confirm it on BBC or anywhere else, but I am curious about the content. Thanx, Nosey Aimee
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Liz Mann - Apr 2, 2006 10:05 am (#1321 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
It's still saying the server's busy. If it was working I'm sure by now it would say that it's a joke, because you're supposed to fess up after midday on April 1st. Even LeakyMug have given in now.
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The One - Apr 2, 2006 1:03 pm (#1322 of 1858)
Open minded sceptic
hey, I confess!!
The busy message is a fake, there is no interview.
Simpler to make a fake busy message then to write a fake interview..
Sorry I did not confess earlier, but when I went offline in Norway it was still a lot left of day in the US.
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Liz Mann - Apr 3, 2006 2:27 pm (#1323 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I thought it was probably you, The One! Nice one.
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Catherine - Jun 21, 2006 1:31 pm (#1324 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
I've been thinking about Slughorn's reference to "obsessive love" and wondered if this would be shown in the final book.
I tried to think of what characters this could apply to, and I wondered if it could be about Snape. There are many Forum members who think that Snape cared for Lily, but after HbP I wondered if perhaps Narcissa was really the one.
Now, it could have simply been about Merope Gaunt and her feelings for Tom Riddle, Sr., which would be the obvious example. I just wonder if that's the only example.
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Liz Mann - Jun 22, 2006 5:43 am (#1325 of 1858)
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Unless Voldemort used to be in love with someone. That would actually explain a lot.
I like the idea of Snape being in love with Lily and that being the reason he hates Harry so much.
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Elanor - Jun 22, 2006 11:57 am (#1326 of 1858)
I've been wondering about that sentence too Catherine! Actually, I have posted something about it on the alchemy thread some months ago:
"About chapter 15, I've been wondering about Ginny's and Luna's roles in Harry's journey. IMO, and only IMO, I still think there is something fishy about Ginny, something that's not completely right. I can't help but think that Slughorn's words in chapter 9, about Amortensia being "the most dangerous and powerful potion in this room" and that: "When you have seen as much of life as I have, you will not underestimate the power of obsessive love" (p.177) were really important for our story, as are the love potions clues, starting with Molly talking about her making some when she was young, and with Fred and George's ones. There must be more to this than just Romilda Vane's feeble attempts to give some to Harry! Now, has Ginny really used a love potion on Harry or is it just a hint that her "obsessive love" can become "dangerous" (i.e. her doing something foolish thinking it would help Harry in book 7, or something like that) at some point... " (from post #1143, here)
And the more I think about it, the more I think Ginny's love for Harry could qualify as "obsessive"! And I am very worried for her in book 7...
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Liz Mann - Jun 22, 2006 12:57 pm (#1327 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
J.K. said that she wanted Harry to have his ideal girl, and that that girl is Ginny. J.K.'s not going to have him meet his ideal girl and then have it turn out that there's something fishy or suspicious about her, not after everything else Harry's been through. She never does anything that isn't necessary, especially in the misery department.
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haymoni - Jun 22, 2006 1:07 pm (#1328 of 1858)
I'm guessing once that Valentine backfired, Ginny gave up on trying to coerce Harry into liking her.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jun 22, 2006 6:46 pm (#1329 of 1858)
Jo wants Harry to have his ideal girl? Unless I missed something recently, Jo said Harry and Ginny were meant to come together and part, and that was her last word on the subject. If she had indeed, confirmed positively that it will be H/G at the end of book seven, I want a link to that!
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Liz Mann - Jun 23, 2006 7:34 am (#1330 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Well she can't exactly say that it will be H/G at the end of the book, can she, because that would be giving away that they will be alive at the end of the book. She has said that she meant for Harry and Ginny to come together and part, which they have already, but that doesn't mean they won't get back together. And she did also say that Ginny was Harry's ideal girl.
Quotage from the Leaky/Mugglenet interview:
MA: Had you been trying to get them —
JKR: Well I always knew that that was going to happen, that they were going to come together and then part.
ES: Were you always -----ing it? [We can’t figure out what Emerson actually said here.]
JKR: Well, no, not really, because the plan was, which I really hope I fulfilled, is that the reader, like Harry, would gradually discover Ginny as pretty much the ideal girl for Harry. She's tough, not in an unpleasant way, but she's gutsy. He needs to be with someone who can stand the demands of being with Harry Potter, because he's a scary boyfriend in a lot of ways. He's a marked man. I think she's funny, and I think that she's very warm and compassionate. These are all things that Harry requires in his ideal woman. But, I felt — and I'm talking years ago when all this was planned — initially, she's terrified by his image. I mean, he's a bit of a rock god to her when she sees him first, at 10 or 11, and he's this famous boy. So Ginny had to go through a journey as well. And rather like with Ron, I didn’t want Ginny to be the first girl that Harry ever kissed. That's something I meant to say, and it's kind of tied in.
One of the ways in which I tried to show that Harry has done a lot of growing up — in “Phoenix,” remember when Cho comes into the compartment, and he thinks, ‘I wish I could have been discovered sitting with better people,’ basically? He's with Luna and Neville. So literally the identical thing happens in “Prince,” and he's with Luna and Neville again, but this time, he has grown up, and as far as he's concerned he is with two of the coolest people on the train. They may not look that cool. Harry has really grown. And I feel that Ginny and Harry, in this book, they are total equals. They are worthy of each other. They've both gone through a big emotional journey, and they've really got over a lot of delusions, to use your word, together. So, I enjoyed writing that. I really like Ginny as a character.
So yeah, she said both.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jun 23, 2006 5:25 pm (#1331 of 1858)
They were equals in my opinion, because they were both jerks to pretty much everyone in HBP. They did deserve each other in that sense. I just can't stand the way they are when they're together. Maybe it's because I really do think either Ginny will die, or that Harry is so intertwined with Voldemort that he will have to die to win. I'm a big proponent of the idea that he may need to lay down his life for his friends.
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Ponine - Jun 23, 2006 7:54 pm (#1332 of 1858)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
I have to disagree with you there, Die Zimtzicke -- I don't think Ginny and Harry were jerks to everyone in HBP at all! I mean -- LOL -- they're teenagers, struggling with hormones and friends and love and evil and death and loneliness and grief and the occasional possession or merging of minds... Between Ron's treatment of Hermione and Lavender, Hermione's Hitchcock moment, Ginny lashing out at her brother for humiliating her, and the Weasley kids' treatment of Percy, I think they are all acting pretty normally to both normal and abnormal circumstances. Ideal behavior, not, probably not at all, but I don't think most human behavior is. I fear that you might be on to something when you think one of them will die, but I really hope not, because I adore all four of them!
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Liz Mann - Jun 25, 2006 7:02 am (#1333 of 1858)
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I just have this feeling that Ginny won't die. I don't know what it is. And as long as she doesn't die then Harry will have a reason to live because he'll have some kind of happiness to meet him on the other side. However, whether J.K. will choose to let that happen or not is another matter, because I'm still not sure whether Harry will die or not. I can find evidence for both ways.
And I agree, that is typical teenage behaviour.
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Mediwitch - Jun 25, 2006 3:57 pm (#1334 of 1858)
"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
Another vote here for "normal" adolescent behavior. Both Mr. Mediwitch and I spend as much time with children and adolescents as we do with each other, and we see this kind of behavior on a daily basis. Ponine, I think you hit the nail right on the head.
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Ponine - Jun 25, 2006 9:13 pm (#1335 of 1858)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Thanks, Mediwitch I'd like to think so -- One of these reasons I like the books so much is the fact that the characters are so innately human, in thoughts, behavior, humor and types...
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Liz Mann - Jul 21, 2006 2:03 pm (#1336 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I've just found an essay on The Leaky Cauldron that I think perfectly describes why Harry and Ginny make a good couple, and why Harry is attracted to Ginny and not to Hermione.
Follow the directions thus: Go to The Leaky Cauldron, find the link to the Scribbulus section on the right hand side, click on 'Index of Essays', scroll down to 'Issue 2' and find the heading "Why Harry picked Ginny as a romantic partner".
I would rate this essay PG.
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Honour - Jul 21, 2006 6:29 pm (#1337 of 1858)
The real reason Harry picked Ginny is because JKR wrote it that way! There were no choices, no "picking" one or the other. JKR engineered/planned it that way a "fait acompli" ... All those still struggling with it "should build a bridge" and this is said with much love ...
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TheSaint - Jul 21, 2006 7:24 pm (#1338 of 1858)
ROFL...sure it is Honour.
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Liz Mann - Jul 22, 2006 6:21 am (#1339 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
The real reason Harry picked Ginny is because JKR wrote it that way! There were no choices, no "picking" one or the other.
Yes, I know that, Honour. What the person's saying is that this is why the characters Ginny and Harry are right together (as J.K. has written them), and why Harry and Hermione are incompatible.
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TheSaint - Jul 22, 2006 9:10 am (#1340 of 1858)
'Ginny is the perfect girl for Harry.' Sure she is, at the age of 16 and 17. Does this mean the rest of his life? I surely would not be involved now with the guys I dated in High School. I know some people marry thier high school sweethearts, but it is rare and the odds of it lasting are even more remote.
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Honour - Jul 22, 2006 8:58 pm (#1341 of 1858)
Sorry Liz Mann if my post sounded a bit short, I've always had a bug bear pet hate about the knowledge that JKR had predisposed the Harry character to fall inlove with the Ginny character. Then when I started to realise that Ginny shared many of Lily's characteristics as well as being similar in looks to her, eeeooower! I think there are therapists for that!
I have never been a fan of the Harry/Ginny ship but that's just me, I don't need to be convinced of how compatible they are, like I said, it is a fait acompli, just one of those things you deal with and move on, no biggy
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Liz Mann - Jul 23, 2006 1:32 pm (#1342 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I know some people marry thier high school sweethearts, but it is rare and the odds of it lasting are even more remote.
That's true. It worked for Molly and Arthur, though. Who knows whether Lily and James would have worked out.
Then when I started to realise that Ginny shared many of Lily's characteristics as well as being similar in looks to her, eeeooower! I think there are therapists for that!
Lol! Well, Freud wouldn't have been surprised.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 27, 2006 9:52 pm (#1343 of 1858)
Jo can tell us anything in an interview, but if we don't see it in the books, then we don't see it. If she'd put more H/G into the books, and less of it in interviews, maybe I could buy it. I just can't stand the way Ginny is written, so why would I want her with Harry?
And if we're going to make Jo's interviews canon, she did say they had to come together and part, did she not?
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Puck - Jul 28, 2006 5:35 am (#1344 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I think the parting is to show yet another sacrifice that Harry makes.
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Liz Mann - Jul 28, 2006 4:00 pm (#1345 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I think there was a lot of hints towards Harry and Ginny, just not glaring ones - the paralell between them and Harry's parents, Ginny's crush, little moments where they'd share an un-spoken joke and the fact that Ginny is the only one of Harry's friends who has met Voldemort and knows what it's like to deal with him first hand.
Admittedly, there wasn't a whole lot of it before book five, but in five and six I think there was sufficient development. I think Harry started to notice her in book five but he was still hung up on Cho and so didn't realise it until after he and Cho were over.
Well, anyway, maybe there'll be enough of Harry and Ginny in book seven that it'll make up for any lack of build up to the relationship there might have been. J.K. does occasionally browse through the fansites, so maybe she'll take people's comments into consideration. She won't change anything drastic, obviously, I mean she won't get rid of the H/G relationship all together, but she can still keep comments in mind.
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TheSaint - Jul 28, 2006 4:27 pm (#1346 of 1858)
I mean she won't get rid of the H/G relationship all together, but she can still keep comments in mind.
I hope not...I want to read her story. No outside influence!
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Steve Newton - Jul 28, 2006 5:02 pm (#1347 of 1858)
Librarian
I can't see Ginny breaking off the relationship simply because Harry said so. She may skulk in the background but she will be with him.
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Choices - Jul 28, 2006 6:28 pm (#1348 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I am re-reading the series and am in book 2 now. There are major hints of things to come in later books and one that sticks out is Draco's comment in the book store when Ginny speaks up for Harry...."Got yourself a girlfriend, Potter?" Then later the Valentine's Day poem (from Ginny?) delivered to Harry in the hallway - something about his eyes being as green as a freshly pickled toad. LOL But I still find it curious that Ginny (?) would have used the phrase "Dark Lord" in the poem. We have yet to discover who actually sent the poem - sometimes I think it was really Draco who sent it to publicly embarrass Harry. Draco would most likely use the phrase "DarK Lord", whereas I don't think Ginny would.
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TheSaint - Jul 29, 2006 12:36 pm (#1349 of 1858)
In Book 2 Ginny sent Harry the valentine of her own volition. [Read the entire quote from the Leaky Cauldron, 2005] From Madame Scoop's Website. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
It was Ginny.
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Liz Mann - Jul 29, 2006 1:45 pm (#1350 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
His eyes are as green as a fresh-pickled toad,
His hair is as dark as a blackboard,
I wish he was mine, he's really divine,
The hero who conqured You-Know-Who
It just doesn't work. I think J.K. used Dark Lord simply because it fit the tune and it rhymed with blackboard.
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timrew - Jul 29, 2006 3:29 pm (#1351 of 1858)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Liz Mann:- His eyes are as green as a fresh-pickled toad, His hair is as dark as a blackboard, I wish he was mine, he's really divine, The hero who conqured You-Know-Who
Perhaps it should read..................
His eyes are as green as a fresh-pickled toad, His hair is as dark as a black kazoo. I wish he was mine, he's really divine, The hero who conquered You-Know-Who
Okay, you try finding a rhyme to go with You-Know-Who. It's hard!!
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 29, 2006 5:27 pm (#1352 of 1858)
I thought the Valentine was weird, too. I'm glad I'm not the only one. When Jo confirmed it was from Ginny, though. I was happy. I always thought it was from her.
What is odd about the breakup, no matter what Ginny does about it, or doesn't do, is that it can't possibly do much to really protect her, since no one knows they broke up. Certainly no one who could tell Voldemort. Harry doesn't even think about seeing her one more time when he has that last happy golden day with Ron and Hermione. He feel that being with her was living someone else's life. He doesn't even tell her when he breaks up with her that he's planning on leaving he school, an I think she had right to know at least that much. Something is just weird about this relationship, and it's NOT just that I think Ginny is a world class jerk in HBP.
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Choices - Jul 29, 2006 5:35 pm (#1353 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Thanks Saint for confirming who the valentine poem was from. I think I remember hearing that before, but still thought it was uncertain enough to possibly be from Draco. It just seems so unlike Ginny to be that bold - she was still in the "embarrassed to death" stage with Harry, so to publicly announce her affection for him seemed somehow out of character for her.
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TheSaint - Jul 29, 2006 8:25 pm (#1354 of 1858)
I too would have thought it was part of the 'Tom trying to get to Harry' scheme if it were not for her saying it was of her own volition.
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Liz Mann - Jul 30, 2006 3:34 pm (#1355 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
It just seems so unlike Ginny to be that bold - she was still in the "embarrassed to death" stage with Harry, so to publicly announce her affection for him seemed somehow out of character for her.
The Valentine was anonymous, though. He wouldn't have guessed who it was from if Draco hadn't said that, and she was probably relying on that fact. That's the whole point of valentines cards - to secretly say 'I like you'.
Something is just weird about this relationship, and it's NOT just that I think Ginny is a world class jerk in HBP.
Like Harry was when he was in fifth year (and still is sometimes)? Or Ron, for that matter? Even Hermione has moments of jerkiness.
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Catherine - Jul 30, 2006 3:55 pm (#1356 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
LOL, Liz. I sent an anonymous Valentine once when I was very young and even more foolish than I am now...
I realize that Die Zimzticke and I disagree over Ginny, but I think it's rather harsh to call her a "world class jerk" in HbP. I rather saw her as an "heir to Lily," cheeky and outgoing and strong.
I don't think Harry has to tell Ginny (or JKR show us every scene) for Ginny to realize what Harry's plans are. I think she knows.
That said, I am waiting to see her all dressed up for Fleur's and Bill's wedding, dressed in the pale gold that Fleur mentioned.
Ginny will be rather Phoenix-like, don't you think? All red hair and gold dress....
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darien - Jul 30, 2006 4:06 pm (#1357 of 1858)
Doctor in the many arts of wasting one's time
Yes, Ginny is a lot like Lily. Was it Freud who said we look for our mother (or father) in our wife( or husband) or was it some other person?
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 30, 2006 6:14 pm (#1358 of 1858)
Ginnny is like Lily in that she has red hair, (though Lily's was dark red and Ginny's is firey) and that Jo SAYS she was popular. I see her as actually more like James. A pureblood, who plays Quidditch, and hexes people that annoy her.
I agree that other people were jerks in the book, but this thread is about ships, and we were discussing H/G. Together, to ME, Harry and Ginny were MORE jerky than usual. The Harry/Ginny relationship, while I concede it made Harry feel more normal, and therefore happy, is double jerkiness. Harry has tunnel vision whenever he's being a jerk, and it's usually when he needs to be thinking ahead and beyond. Ginny just gets in a temper, and Harry can do that himself.
Ginny was practically at his beck and call in HBP. When he wanted her, she was there, in spite of all of the times he's ignored her in the past, and all of the things he has not bothered to say to her. I don't think it made either of them better people. When you are in falling in love I think it should make you kinder, nicer, and more focused, and give you more presence. That didn't happen in HBP.
Eric Fromm, in his book "the Art Of Loving" pointed out that immature love says I love you because I need you. Mature love says I need you because I love you. Presence has to have value.
In HBP, with Harry/Ginny, but also with Ron/Lavender, and Remus/Tonks, we saw immature love. If it's meant to become mature love, a lot of bobok seven will have to focus on it, because it's just not there now.
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Mediwitch - Jul 30, 2006 6:37 pm (#1359 of 1858)
"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
A lot of book seven will have to focus on the horcruxes; the romance aspect is secondary. We may not see the development of any relationships in depth because these are not romance novels. The romances must exist because romantic love/attraction/whatever-you-would-call-it is a part of every day life for many people, but the romance is not the focus of these novels.
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Catherine - Jul 31, 2006 6:37 am (#1360 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
In HBP, with Harry/Ginny, but also with Ron/Lavender, and Remus/Tonks, we saw immature love. If it's meant to become mature love, a lot of bobok seven will have to focus on it, because it's just not there now.
That's an interesting point. JKR is writing about love, though, for an immature audience. Perhaps she portrays love in a way that is accessible to her younger audience.
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journeymom - Aug 1, 2006 1:15 am (#1361 of 1858)
"In HBP, with Harry/Ginny, but also with Ron/Lavender, and Remus/Tonks, we saw immature love."
Perhaps it's immature because -they- are immature! (Or, in the case of Lupin and Tonks, neophytes.) They are teen-agers. Teen-agers can be hostile, obnoxious, absured, ignorant, loving, accepting and logical all in the same 24 hours.
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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 1, 2006 7:54 am (#1362 of 1858)
Agreed. So why do so many fans think Harry and Ginny, at their age, are really, truly, permanently in love and that the breakup is a blip on the page and that the relationship MUST be the linchpin the ending of the book turns on?
I'm talking about the whole "Love defeats Voldemort so Ginny is needed to defeat Voldemort" stuff you see on so many boards. That's what makes me cranky. Harry as the prophecy boy has to defeat Voldemort on his own as I see it, and his relationships, while important in preparing him, (all of them, not just Ginnny) won't be the sole deciding factor.
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journeymom - Aug 1, 2006 9:46 am (#1363 of 1858)
As far as the sub-plot of relationships is concerned, I thought JKR herself implied that Harry/Ginny are together, ultimately if not immediately during Book 7.
I agree with your second paragraph, Die Zimtzicke.
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haymoni - Aug 1, 2006 10:13 am (#1364 of 1858)
There are different kinds of love and Harry has experienced or seen most of them.
I don't think Voldy had that opportunity and at some point decided that he did not need love.
I keep thinking of that scene in "A Wrinkle In Time" where Meg knew her power was love, but she couldn't bring herself to love that big brain thing, IT. But she was able to love her brother - Charles, was it?
I think Harry has to learn how to USE love. Perhaps while he is thinking about those he loves, some sort of shield is formed.
I don't know - I'm just thinking out loud.
Or typing out loud.
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journeymom - Aug 1, 2006 10:23 am (#1365 of 1858)
"I think Harry has to learn how to USE love. Perhaps while he is thinking about those he loves, some sort of shield is formed."
That makes sense, as that's how LV was squeezed out of Harry when LV possessed him. Harry started to dwell on Sirius Black and suddenly LV was gone, he couldn't abide the love Harry was feeling. I like your analogy to "Wrinkle In Time", haymoni.
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Liz Mann - Aug 1, 2006 11:54 am (#1366 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
So why do so many fans think Harry and Ginny, at their age, are really, truly, permanently in love and that the breakup is a blip on the page and that the relationship MUST be the linchpin the ending of the book turns on? I'm talking about the whole "Love defeats Voldemort so Ginny is needed to defeat Voldemort" stuff you see on so many boards. That's what makes me cranky. Harry as the prophecy boy has to defeat Voldemort on his own as I see it, and his relationships, while important in preparing him, (all of them, not just Ginnny) won't be the sole deciding factor.
I have to agree with you, Die Zimtzicke. I'm a Harry/Ginny shipper but I don't believe that their relationship is going to be the key to the ending, nor do I think they are in love at this point. I hope their feelings can develop into love in the future, but at the moment I think it's just teenage 'like'. Both of them do still have a lot of maturing to do. Harry's a lot more mature than most sixteen/seventeen year olds in a lot of ways (he's far more worldly) but in matters of the heart he still has a lot to learn. Maybe that's partly why J.K. made them split up for the moment. Maybe by the time they get back together (if they do) they'll have grown up more.
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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 2, 2006 8:18 am (#1367 of 1858)
I really think Harry's going to die to defeat Voldemort anyway. I always have. Unless you're reading Disney versions, many heroes wind up dead heroes or lone heros. Jo seems to me to be more of a classical writer. Maybe I'm wrong.
That's why, however, I often get frustrated when you get more discussion on some boards about the ships than you do about major plot points. Thankfully, this board is not so bad that way. I love it here.
I like the "Wrinkle in Time" analogy, but I do not think Jo implied that Harry and Ginny are going to be together in the end. At least not the way she did about Ron and Hermione. She said Harry and Ginny had to come together and part. That's not definitive to me, If I'm wrong and he lives, we can't prove at this point that she will.
I just don't see any ship as being the main thrust of the story, in spite of how many folks in the fandom do concentrate on shipping.
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Liz Mann - Aug 3, 2006 3:08 pm (#1368 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I agree, the shipping is not the main point and many people blow it completely out of proportion.
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Nate Davis - Aug 25, 2006 1:30 pm (#1369 of 1858)
BYU student
Edited by Catherine Aug 26, 2006 4:10 am
Ever since I first read the books (around when GoF the book came out) I've always thought that Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny would happen. I've always really liked all four characters, and I've not only thought that it would happen based on the text, but it's what I would choose to happen myself.
I found a really interesting essay called 'Giving Her the Power: The Characterization of Harry/Ginny,' which painstakingly goes through how Ginny is portrayed in the first five books (it was written before HBP was released). Warning: this is one of the longest essays I've ever read - it took me at least an hour, if I remember right. Here's the URL:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
It seems to me that Jo has always tried to portray Ginny in a positive light, and she's been one of my favorite characters since I've read books five and six. I think her relationship with Harry will be very important to the final book, even though I don't think she'll actually be present at the final showdown.
As far as Ron/Hermione goes, it's interesting to finally have solid confirmation of what I've suspected ever since I first read the books. Their relationship may have some bearing on what happens, but at this point I doubt it will have great impact on the main plot of book seven.
I removed the link to another site. We discourage linking to essays on other sites, as we cannot be responsible for the content found there. I hope you understand.--Catherine
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journeymom - Aug 25, 2006 2:16 pm (#1370 of 1858)
And the drawing of Ginny and Harry at the bottom of the essay isn't too shabby, either! Lovely!
(Yes, very fan girl and shallow of me.)
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Eponine - Aug 25, 2006 2:23 pm (#1371 of 1858)
I beta read that essay! Red did a considerable amount of work pulling all that information together for what she refers to as the BHE (Big Honkin' Essay).
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journeymom - Aug 25, 2006 11:58 pm (#1372 of 1858)
Eponine, that is way cool to know!
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Liz Mann - Aug 26, 2006 10:02 am (#1373 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I'm in the process of reading this essay at the moment. I'm up to 'Travelling Eyes'.
While I do think that Harry/Ginny was discreetly developed from very early on (whereas Ron/Hermione was developed very loudly), I'm wondering why this writer is pointing to such very tiny details when there are other, more significant ones. For example, the fact that Harry likes humour. I agree that this is one of the reasons why he likes her, but the example she chose to use was:
"Some'n say m'name?" Mundungus mumbled sleepily. "I 'gree with Sirius..."
He raised a very grubby hand in the air as though voting, his droppy, bagshot eyes unfocused. Ginny giggled.
It's not to say that this isn't an example of Ginny's having a similar sense of humour to Harry (her giggling is a detail that is irrelevant to the plot and the focus of the scene and so must have been put there for a reason), but there are better examples, I think. Like all the times that someone does or says something stupid, and Harry and Ginny glance at each other before trying to hide their laughter. (Harry and Ron do this too, but Ron's a boy.)
Still, the essay seems to be nicely constructed and organised, and very comprehensive, and I'm impressed.
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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 26, 2006 8:18 pm (#1374 of 1858)
Sugarquill is a site where you are supposed to be H/G to post there. If you go to a site that is anti-H/G, they also have very good essays in favor of other ships, or no ships at all.
In that particular example, with Dung, is Ginny looking at Harry? Does she know Harry is looking at her? Is he intentionally looking at her? Does Harry respond in a noticable way? Is he really getting ready to laugh himself? We don't know that. None of that is stated at all. Yet, it's considered proof that Harry and Ginny have a similiar sense of humor, even though Harry isn't amused ANYWHERE in that scene.
As far as ANY ship goes, as far as I'm concerned, an essay doesn't prove anything except the person writing it has gotten to the point where he/she reads the books LOOKING for ways to interpret them to support the writer's ship.
No one really knows what Jo is going to do, and that includes any ship but R/Hr. I think she's been pretty firm on R/Hr, but that's just my interpretation.
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Liz Mann - Aug 27, 2006 6:16 am (#1375 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Yet, it's considered proof that Harry and Ginny have a similiar sense of humor...
Not proof, Die Zimtzicke, evidence.
I agree that she's been very firm on R/Hr, and hasn't said anything definite on H/G yet.
I don't like that example either. There are many other signs to show that Harry and Ginny share a similar sense of humour, as I said before. For example:
"Ah, there's Penelope!" said Percy, smoothing his hair and going pink again. Ginny caught Harry's eye and they both turned away to hide their laughter...
There are other examples but I can't be bothered to go look for them.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 11, 2005 12:37 am (#1376 of 1858)
So Ginny deliberately tried to get Harry's attention, so they could both laugh at her brother. That's quite typical of Ginny.
Harry and Ginny both looking down on Percy, and laughing at him just foreshadows how nasty both of them will be to people when they get together, in my opinion. Pecry tried to help Harry choose classes when he didn't know what to take. Percy was the only one who was worried about Ginny in CoS. He was afraid she was ill, and got on the twins for scaring her. At THAT point, they were just being jerks, which is what they are to almost everyone when they are together.
Harry and Ginny do not become better, more focused people when they are getting together, or during the few weeks they spend together, before he breaks up with her. Maybe that's why Jo said they had to come together and part. I hope so, anyway.
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haymoni - Aug 28, 2006 12:02 pm (#1377 of 1858)
If I think something is funny and I'm trying to hide my laughter and I happen to catch the eye of someone who seems to be thinking the same as I do, it usually sends me over the edge and I have to redouble my efforts.
I don't think Ginny went out of her way to catch Harry's eye regarding Percy. It just happened. Harry is one of the few people who know that Ginny caught Percy snogging with Penelope. It's an inside joke that they can both laugh at.
When Ginny was about to tell them what was going on with her in COS, Percy came over and interrupted, and in full "I am Prefect, hear me roar" fashion, he just assumed that Ginny was about to spill the beans about he and Penelope, when here she was trying to tell them what was really going on.
I had wondered if Percy was really concerned about Ginny or if he just didn't want to be made fun of.
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The One - Aug 28, 2006 1:47 pm (#1378 of 1858)
Open minded sceptic
I think that Percy really was concerned about Ginny. As he was really concerned about Ron in GoF.
I think he really wants to be part of the family as well, but he also want to make career. His desire to leave the powerty (and non-importanness) of his family behind hin hs affected his judgement.
Apart from that, I find two youngster laughing at a slightly older kid trying to impress a girl to be neither overtly shippy nor cruel, it is just the kind of things people do. But it does show a common sense og humour, that is true.
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me and my shadow 813 - Dec 29, 2006 5:48 pm (#1379 of 1858)
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I've been thinking a lot about the couples that we've seen so far and I have some concern. I find most of the women in HP to be more than just assertive or confident or strong. I think Molly is funny, but she is quite domineering. We don't see a lot of her relating with Arthur, but given what we know it seems like she tells everyone what to do and they either do it, or complain and then do it, or deal with her wrath. Ginny strikes me as very similar to her mother and I hope Harry doesn't get under her thumb. Minerva (although not 'ship material as far as we know) is more than a bit firm and unapproachable. Tonks seems like a 'tomboy'. Hermione is demanding to say the least. Ron better watch out or he'll be in the same situation as his father.
I'm wondering two things: where are the soft women? Is it weak to be soft? All we have for soft feminine is Fleur, who is almost mocking femininity, then there's Trelawney who is made to seem pathetic. Luna's my only hope for a soft&strong feminine model, and I hope Harry ends up with her. As far as Hermione, I do love her character but I think she'd be better off with Viktor, if he could develop other interests besides sports. Any thoughts?
I should point out that I am female, in case other women of the forum are upset by these statements coming from a male.
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Puck - Dec 29, 2006 6:52 pm (#1380 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Lavender and Parvati are pretty "girly". Choo would fit that description as well. Perhaps Harry just doesn't relate well to such people, so we don't see much of such characters.
Harry would never allow himself to be fully "under a thumb", and I doubt think Ginny would be happy if he was.
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me and my shadow 813 - Dec 29, 2006 8:05 pm (#1381 of 1858)
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Puck, I'm not sure what you mean by "girly" but it doesn't sound good to me. The female character I most relate to is Luna. A Lavender type, or Parvati, I don't recall much depth shown to us so I don't know, but regarding those two being less "tough" and "loud", they seem to be depicted in a less than positive light, as in silly or dumb for looking up to Trelawney. And Cho also ended up seeming quite helpless or somewhat weak compared to how JKR writes Hermione or Ginny who to me could use some softening. That's why I think Hermione would be better with Viktor, because his brutishness would soften her.
I'm talking here regarding 'shipping. Molly and Arthur, from what we've seen so far, are our only models of adult couple behavior in HP. We've got nothing else to go on and we haven't seen much interaction. But Molly, although very caring, is extremely domineering and I'm not sure why JKR likes to produce the important female characters this way. It just seems like it's tough-chick my-way-or-the-highway types for *major* female characters. I could easily see Ginny turning into Molly. Arthur's never home and Molly's fine with it but she rules the roost. Harry would probably be gone a lot and Ginny'd be fine with it. I see her becoming like that.
So Luna, as the most balanced feminine character for me, should be with Harry, who will be the most balanced masculine character, if not now then by end of book 7. She's confident without being domineering, intelligent without being pushy, and is gentle without being depicted as silly.
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Under The Imperius - Dec 29, 2006 9:42 pm (#1382 of 1858)
Be afraid...Be very afraid...
I could just picture Luna and Harry honeymooning...
Luna-"Harry dear, woulden't you just love to go Crumple-Horned Snorkcack hunting?"
Harry-"Er..."
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Laura W - Dec 30, 2006 12:57 am (#1383 of 1858)
me and my, I have thought this all along - well, since I read Book Four the first time - but, since you have actually come out and said (wrote) it, ... I, too, think Hermoine and Viktor would be good for each other. Not exactly for the reason you gave, however.
Even though she was far from the prettiest girl of those from all three schools who were at Hogwarts for the tournament, and even though - as a professional athelete - the 18-year-old (by my timeline) Krum could have had his pick of dates for the Yule Ball, he chose the relatively plain (at 15, anyway) aloof Hermoine who had shown no interest in him or his fame. I see this as his good judgement. He saw in her brains and character and strength, and was drawn to it. That raised my opinion of him.
This was added to in my mind when he a) was considerate enough to make sure Harry had no designs on Hermoine before pursuing her, and b) gave both Gryffindor champions credit for their excellent flying and sportsmanship and their winning efforts. This shows a lack of big-headedness on Krum's part, although everybody fawns on him. No, this man has character and I like him. I think a strong, intelligent and loving woman like Hermoine would make him an excellent partner. And vice versa.
Laura
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me and my shadow 813 - Dec 30, 2006 1:59 am (#1384 of 1858)
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Laura W - I agree with your reasons and although we know who she ends up with, Viktor's still my vote for Hermione. It's sort of a beauty and the beast tale... she's refined and he's - what does she say in the film - a Physical Being. Perfect for her. I don't see people as a match who bicker all the time, like she does with Ron. If they're bickering now, what happens 25 years down the road? I also like Viktor because I think knowing the dark arts has a positive purpose in this story. He'll be there for Harry.
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Laura W - Dec 30, 2006 2:25 am (#1385 of 1858)
Blast! Too late to edit!
I wrote, "gave both Gryffindor champions credit for ...". Of course what I meant was, "gave both Hogwarts champions credit for ...". Cedric was in Hufflepuff house. I know that. (hitting myself over head with new frying pan)
LW
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Liz Mann - Dec 30, 2006 9:15 am (#1386 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Arthur's never home and Molly's fine with it but she rules the roost.
She doesn't seem fine with it to me. Whenever he has to work late or overtime she seems sad. Yes, Molly is quite domineering but there is obviously a lot of affection between her and her husband (Mollywobbles!). I think J.K. was kind of playing around with a stereotype with Molly and Arthur.
I think Harry does relate to girls like Ginny and Hermione better than softer females (though, to be fair, Hermione can often be soft, and we've seen softer moments in Ginny too), because they're more like himself. He wants a girlfriend that can be a friend too, who he can have fun with. Besides that, with Harry's rashness and temper, he needs someone who can keep his feet on the ground. I don't think Ginny will put him under her thumb, because Harry is by no means a mild man and wouldn't allow himself to be put under anyone's thumb, but I do think she will keep his head out of the clouds. A milder female will probably find herself frequently under his thumb, and she would probably tire of his moods and angsting and tendancy to be melodramatic.
I don't see people as a match who bicker all the time, like she does with Ron. If they're bickering now, what happens 25 years down the road?
They bicker so much because they're opposites. But at the same time the fact that they're opposites is a good thing. Ron will teach Hermione to lighten up a little and Hermione will teach Ron to be more serious and focused. What they need to do is settle into a system where they can use their differences rather than be dominated by them. Besides, opposites attract. I also think they bicker so much becasue there is so much sexual tension between them. Once they get together that should be resolved and the bickering should soften down a bit. Not go away completely, that would be a shame really , but they might not do it as much.
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me and my shadow 813 - Dec 30, 2006 11:28 am (#1387 of 1858)
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Laura W - thanks, I knew what you meant. Put the frying pan down.
Liz Mann - thanks for your post. I didn't intend it as an insult when I said Molly is fine with Arthur being away a lot. I meant that Ginny is supposed to be perfect for Harry because she wouldn't be the possessive type, so I was showing the similarity to Molly's independence. Of course Ginny would be sad that Harry's away a lot, just as I'm sure Molly is.
I basically enjoy Molly, like I said I think she's funny and I know tons of women/mothers like her, so, as you pointed out, they are a stereotype. I just don't see, if they are the only real adult couple we get to see so far, why she'd decide to portray them this way. In A Very Frosty Christmas chapter, a rare scene with Molly trying to connect with her husband, Arthur is completely unresponsive. That scene makes me pity her, not think they have a lot of affection. So, if this is our rare peek into their intimacy, why write it that way? (Thank goodness for the Mollywobbles remark).
Regarding opposites, I do believe they attract and that's what I meant about Hermione and Viktor. I can see her and Ron being opposites but not in a good way. Ron is so unsure of himself and Hermione is confident. To me, their relationship would be Hermione trying to bolster Ron's confidence, like in Quidditch tryouts. Viktor is more her equal as far as feeling confident and accomplished. She needs someone she admires, not someone she feels superior to. Any thoughts?
I do think Remus and Tonks are a good match. I think he'll soften her and she doesn't see him as a charity case.
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Thom Matheson - Dec 30, 2006 1:30 pm (#1388 of 1858)
With 7 kids, believe me there is intimancy. They have been together since they were teens. There is most certainly a mutual respect and admiration between them. The fact that JKR hasn't shown us doesn't make it necessarily not that way.
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me and my shadow 813 - Dec 30, 2006 2:38 pm (#1389 of 1858)
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Thom wrote - The fact that JKR hasn't shown us doesn't make it necessarily not that way.
The above rationale works only some of the time for me. A story must be taken at face value at some point in order for the reader to discern whether or not they relate, accept, reject, etc., to the story. I know 'shipping is a minor aspect of the story, and I'm all for speculation, but I'm curious about how people and relationships are portrayed in HP and why. Severus's personality is portayed in a certain way in order to illustrate a certain type of person and what that means about ourselves, the reader. That's the author's objective with novels which revolve around relationship, is to explore behavior/subconscious/impetus/will. I think the trouble with this story is we have such complex relationships occurring, that for me other relationships appear, in comparison, to be weak in ways.
I'm not too concerned about Molly's lovelife. I really started posting here because the major women in this series seem to tilt the scales in portraying *important* women as overbearing. It concerns me but perhaps JKR did it because it's wartime in this particular story and folks have to harden their shells. Or maybe it's just the way she views strong women. Gladly, JKR has said she loves Luna and I think she's the closest there is to a well-rounded feminine figure.
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TomProffitt - Dec 30, 2006 3:49 pm (#1390 of 1858)
Bullheaded empiricist
"I really started posting here because the major women in this series seem to tilt the scales in portraying *important* women as overbearing." --- me and my shadow 813
I wouldn't use the word "overbearing" myself. I think what we're seeing is what Rowling views as admirable traits; all of her key characters (male and female) are independent, self-reliant, and assertive to a certain degree, or else they are developing those traits. To my point of view Molly and Arthur have a relationship of equals; Molly seems the leader, but it appears to me that Arthur is only "standing up to her" when he feels it necessary. And for the rest of it, there are things an adult just doesn't do in front his teen-age child's friends. We are limited by Harry's Point of View.
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Liz Mann - Dec 30, 2006 5:13 pm (#1391 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Ron is so unsure of himself and Hermione is confident.
I think Hermione's only outwardly confident, because J.K. has related her to herself when she was young, insecure on the inside and compensates for it by getting everything right all the time.
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journeymom - Dec 30, 2006 5:18 pm (#1392 of 1858)
"That's why I think Hermione would be better with Viktor, because his brutishness would soften her. " Eeek! Perhaps brutish isn't the best word? I can't see Hermione putting up with brutish for a second.
Women do not require softening. Is it weak to be soft? I ask, is it wrong for a woman to be strong? The major female characters are strong because that's what JKR likes. I know I -love- the female characters she created. Dolores Umbridge is the worst, most hateful character in the whole story, in my opinion. She's the one I love to hate.
I guess I disagree with the definition of a well-rounded woman, if Luna is it. She's too out there. In the daily grind of a relationship she'd drive Harry up a wall. Don't get me wrong, she's lovable and obviously talented and smart. And in HBP Harry demonstrated he'd grown up a bit by the way he related to Luna. Basically he'd learned to be polite and value her friendship in spite of her odd behavior.
In A Very Frosty Christmas Arthur rolls his eyes at Molly's Christmas radio tradition. Actually, I felt a little hurt for her, as well. But I think it's supposed to be comical. Arthur was unresponsive in that scene, but their affection is a given, it is implied, it is not explicitly portrayed.
Other couples to consider are Narcissa and Lucius Malfoy and Petunia and Vernon Dursley.
===============================
Oh, I was also going to agree that from what little we've seen of Viktor he seems a better match for Hermione than Ron. I know there's the adage, opposites attract. And JKR appears to be utilizing that here. Opposite traits might attract people initially but often turn out to be the very thing that irritate couples to no end eventually. Hermione might think Ron's silliness and lack of academic ambition is endearing now but eventually she'd lose respect for Ron. However, JKR is the creator here, and if anybody can reveal how Ron and Hermione get together satisfactorily, she can. Or perhaps it's a given now. I really don't see Hermione with anyone other than Ron.
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Die Zimtzicke - Dec 30, 2006 7:51 pm (#1393 of 1858)
One thing about ships...as far as Fleur and Bill, Fleur is by no means a soft, girly girl. She's tough as nails underneath, as I see it, and certainly highly-motivated, or she wouldn't have made it to champion. In that match, Bill seems more like his dad to me, very easy going, while she's the opinionated one.
I don't think the idea that Luna is too out of it to be with anyone is fair. I think a lot of that dreaminess is a front. She snaps back to reality quickly enough when she has to. When Hermione insults her father is one example, and when she explains about using the thestrals to get to London is another. She gets picked on, perhaps, because she's a bit eccentric, so she sometimes goes along with it and becomes more eccentric, but she is a loyal friend. Her serene disposition could suit someone quite well, if Jo were so inclined.
As for Molly, I think she's extremely overbearing, but Arthur can always go out an putter about in the shed till the worst of it blows over. He loves her, and I'm sure she loves him, but she's definitely got the stronger personality as I see it. When he has stood up to her, it's only because she's been in the minority and he's had plenty of support, if I remember correctly. I'm thinking of the scene at Grimmauld Place, when they're telling Harry about the Order against her wishes.
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journeymom - Dec 30, 2006 8:34 pm (#1394 of 1858)
Die Zim, I don't know if you are responding to my comments about Luna, but I did not mean to say she's too out there for anyone, but specifically for Harry. I can't see her with any of the currently existing characters but maybe she'll meet the perfect guy later. Maybe JKR will never finalize that story. And I agree, she has her moments of clarity. And she does get her point across, even if the relevance is obscure.
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Puck - Dec 30, 2006 10:01 pm (#1395 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Molly is the mother of 6 boys -two of them being Fred and George. I think her strong personality would be necessary for survival. However, as Dr. Phil would say, she would be a "soft place to fall" for any of her family/friends. Her harshness comes from love and worry, a mother hen protecting her chicks. You can't get any more "feminine" than that.
I don't think it's Ron's sillines that Hermione likes. They have been through so much together. She knows how far he will go for a friend, that he would stand by her side, no matter what. I agree the bickering has been an outlet for tension due to unspoken feelings.
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me and my shadow 813 - Dec 31, 2006 4:39 pm (#1396 of 1858)
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Liz Mann wrote - I think Hermione's only outwardly confident, because J.K. has related her to herself when she was young, insecure on the inside and compensates for it by getting everything right all the time.
I do agree Liz. However, to me that could be said of 95% of the adult population, let alone adolescents. I feel Hermione is more confident compared to Ron. In HBP, Harry spends long periods of time trying encourage him to no avail. I know he's the youngest son and has been picked on by his brothers, etc., but I thought he was sort of pathetic in HBP. I would love if this is just a phase, and to see him get through it, which might be what JKR has in mind. But for now, if I were Hermione (knowing all that we know and not assuming all sorts of conjured backstory about her time spent with Viktor) I'd be more attracted to Viktor by far.
Yes it seems JKR likes to portray women as "strong", which in the story to me, in many cases, translates as loud and obnoxious. I'd be curious to go back through the books and count how many quotes end in exclamation points, seeing the percentage that come out of the mouths of female characters. (we'd have to discount spellcasting and the entire Flight of the Prince chapter just to be fair).
And what I meant by "brutish" is the classic Beauty & the Beast phenomenon. It is a very real mutual attraction that could only "irritate" later if the two people involved aren't willing to learn and grow from eachother which, to me, is the whole point.
I welcome any thoughts and opinions.
(Edited for grammar)
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journeymom - Dec 31, 2006 5:13 pm (#1397 of 1858)
The only problem with Viktor is that he's not there. Ron is!
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The Wandless Wizard - Dec 31, 2006 6:53 pm (#1398 of 1858)
When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
There is another problem with Viktor. I hate to say the obvious. Love isn't math and brains. It is heart and soul, and it rarely ever makes sense. There is no formula to tell who will be a good couple. You fall in love and no longer see reason. Viktor Krum might be the better match for Hermione. The formulas, personality tests, psycho-anylizing and all the common sense in the world might say Krum is perfect for her. But Ron has her heart. That is all that matters. Maybe one day he'll lose it, but that day has not come yet. Until it does, Ron and Hermione are the ones meant for each other.
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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 1, 2007 5:11 pm (#1399 of 1858)
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I watched PS last night and did find myself respecting Ron's chessplaying ability. I'm not generally in favor of sacrifice, but that's a war game for you. I will give Ron the benefit of the doubt that he must be capable of complex strategy and seeing the big picture, so he's not the dullest knife in the drawer.
journeymom, I can't bear to think of Narcissa and Lucius's relationship, nor Vernon and Pet's. But I see your point, those men aren't "henpecked".
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journeymom - Jan 1, 2007 11:04 pm (#1400 of 1858)
Me and My, I wasn't making that conclusion at all, but now that you point it out, I have to agree! I was simply suggesting two more married couples that we know a little about that we might consider.
For the most part, Vernon seems to be the one in charge, though Petunia is never cowed. In OotP when Harry and Dudley were attacked by dementors and Harry was threatened with expulsion, Vernon was fit to be tied, ready to kick Harry out on his ear. Petunia, as well. Then she gets Dumbledore's howler and changes tack and says Harry will have to stay. Vernon deflates like a balloon and says, "But Petunia, Dear, why?" Or something. I've always liked that image of Vernon deflating.
But my considerations of the Dursleys' relationship got me thinking about something else...
Nah, there just isn't enough to it. I was trying to make a comparison between Petunia and Vernon to Eileen and Tobias Snape. Pet has a magical sister and married the mugglest of muggles. Eileen Prince was a witch and married a muggle. Pet is sour, Eileen the student was described as sour (or not pleasant or whatever). I can't help but see similarities between Petunia and Severus Snape. But I don't know to what end. Can we learn anything about Snape's home life by comparing it Harry's home life? I guess not. That's just stretching it a bit much.
Ah well.
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Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Liz Mann:- His eyes are as green as a fresh-pickled toad, His hair is as dark as a blackboard, I wish he was mine, he's really divine, The hero who conqured You-Know-Who
Perhaps it should read..................
His eyes are as green as a fresh-pickled toad, His hair is as dark as a black kazoo. I wish he was mine, he's really divine, The hero who conquered You-Know-Who
Okay, you try finding a rhyme to go with You-Know-Who. It's hard!!
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 29, 2006 5:27 pm (#1352 of 1858)
I thought the Valentine was weird, too. I'm glad I'm not the only one. When Jo confirmed it was from Ginny, though. I was happy. I always thought it was from her.
What is odd about the breakup, no matter what Ginny does about it, or doesn't do, is that it can't possibly do much to really protect her, since no one knows they broke up. Certainly no one who could tell Voldemort. Harry doesn't even think about seeing her one more time when he has that last happy golden day with Ron and Hermione. He feel that being with her was living someone else's life. He doesn't even tell her when he breaks up with her that he's planning on leaving he school, an I think she had right to know at least that much. Something is just weird about this relationship, and it's NOT just that I think Ginny is a world class jerk in HBP.
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Choices - Jul 29, 2006 5:35 pm (#1353 of 1858)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Thanks Saint for confirming who the valentine poem was from. I think I remember hearing that before, but still thought it was uncertain enough to possibly be from Draco. It just seems so unlike Ginny to be that bold - she was still in the "embarrassed to death" stage with Harry, so to publicly announce her affection for him seemed somehow out of character for her.
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TheSaint - Jul 29, 2006 8:25 pm (#1354 of 1858)
I too would have thought it was part of the 'Tom trying to get to Harry' scheme if it were not for her saying it was of her own volition.
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Liz Mann - Jul 30, 2006 3:34 pm (#1355 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
It just seems so unlike Ginny to be that bold - she was still in the "embarrassed to death" stage with Harry, so to publicly announce her affection for him seemed somehow out of character for her.
The Valentine was anonymous, though. He wouldn't have guessed who it was from if Draco hadn't said that, and she was probably relying on that fact. That's the whole point of valentines cards - to secretly say 'I like you'.
Something is just weird about this relationship, and it's NOT just that I think Ginny is a world class jerk in HBP.
Like Harry was when he was in fifth year (and still is sometimes)? Or Ron, for that matter? Even Hermione has moments of jerkiness.
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Catherine - Jul 30, 2006 3:55 pm (#1356 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
LOL, Liz. I sent an anonymous Valentine once when I was very young and even more foolish than I am now...
I realize that Die Zimzticke and I disagree over Ginny, but I think it's rather harsh to call her a "world class jerk" in HbP. I rather saw her as an "heir to Lily," cheeky and outgoing and strong.
I don't think Harry has to tell Ginny (or JKR show us every scene) for Ginny to realize what Harry's plans are. I think she knows.
That said, I am waiting to see her all dressed up for Fleur's and Bill's wedding, dressed in the pale gold that Fleur mentioned.
Ginny will be rather Phoenix-like, don't you think? All red hair and gold dress....
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darien - Jul 30, 2006 4:06 pm (#1357 of 1858)
Doctor in the many arts of wasting one's time
Yes, Ginny is a lot like Lily. Was it Freud who said we look for our mother (or father) in our wife( or husband) or was it some other person?
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 30, 2006 6:14 pm (#1358 of 1858)
Ginnny is like Lily in that she has red hair, (though Lily's was dark red and Ginny's is firey) and that Jo SAYS she was popular. I see her as actually more like James. A pureblood, who plays Quidditch, and hexes people that annoy her.
I agree that other people were jerks in the book, but this thread is about ships, and we were discussing H/G. Together, to ME, Harry and Ginny were MORE jerky than usual. The Harry/Ginny relationship, while I concede it made Harry feel more normal, and therefore happy, is double jerkiness. Harry has tunnel vision whenever he's being a jerk, and it's usually when he needs to be thinking ahead and beyond. Ginny just gets in a temper, and Harry can do that himself.
Ginny was practically at his beck and call in HBP. When he wanted her, she was there, in spite of all of the times he's ignored her in the past, and all of the things he has not bothered to say to her. I don't think it made either of them better people. When you are in falling in love I think it should make you kinder, nicer, and more focused, and give you more presence. That didn't happen in HBP.
Eric Fromm, in his book "the Art Of Loving" pointed out that immature love says I love you because I need you. Mature love says I need you because I love you. Presence has to have value.
In HBP, with Harry/Ginny, but also with Ron/Lavender, and Remus/Tonks, we saw immature love. If it's meant to become mature love, a lot of bobok seven will have to focus on it, because it's just not there now.
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Mediwitch - Jul 30, 2006 6:37 pm (#1359 of 1858)
"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
A lot of book seven will have to focus on the horcruxes; the romance aspect is secondary. We may not see the development of any relationships in depth because these are not romance novels. The romances must exist because romantic love/attraction/whatever-you-would-call-it is a part of every day life for many people, but the romance is not the focus of these novels.
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Catherine - Jul 31, 2006 6:37 am (#1360 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
In HBP, with Harry/Ginny, but also with Ron/Lavender, and Remus/Tonks, we saw immature love. If it's meant to become mature love, a lot of bobok seven will have to focus on it, because it's just not there now.
That's an interesting point. JKR is writing about love, though, for an immature audience. Perhaps she portrays love in a way that is accessible to her younger audience.
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journeymom - Aug 1, 2006 1:15 am (#1361 of 1858)
"In HBP, with Harry/Ginny, but also with Ron/Lavender, and Remus/Tonks, we saw immature love."
Perhaps it's immature because -they- are immature! (Or, in the case of Lupin and Tonks, neophytes.) They are teen-agers. Teen-agers can be hostile, obnoxious, absured, ignorant, loving, accepting and logical all in the same 24 hours.
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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 1, 2006 7:54 am (#1362 of 1858)
Agreed. So why do so many fans think Harry and Ginny, at their age, are really, truly, permanently in love and that the breakup is a blip on the page and that the relationship MUST be the linchpin the ending of the book turns on?
I'm talking about the whole "Love defeats Voldemort so Ginny is needed to defeat Voldemort" stuff you see on so many boards. That's what makes me cranky. Harry as the prophecy boy has to defeat Voldemort on his own as I see it, and his relationships, while important in preparing him, (all of them, not just Ginnny) won't be the sole deciding factor.
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journeymom - Aug 1, 2006 9:46 am (#1363 of 1858)
As far as the sub-plot of relationships is concerned, I thought JKR herself implied that Harry/Ginny are together, ultimately if not immediately during Book 7.
I agree with your second paragraph, Die Zimtzicke.
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haymoni - Aug 1, 2006 10:13 am (#1364 of 1858)
There are different kinds of love and Harry has experienced or seen most of them.
I don't think Voldy had that opportunity and at some point decided that he did not need love.
I keep thinking of that scene in "A Wrinkle In Time" where Meg knew her power was love, but she couldn't bring herself to love that big brain thing, IT. But she was able to love her brother - Charles, was it?
I think Harry has to learn how to USE love. Perhaps while he is thinking about those he loves, some sort of shield is formed.
I don't know - I'm just thinking out loud.
Or typing out loud.
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journeymom - Aug 1, 2006 10:23 am (#1365 of 1858)
"I think Harry has to learn how to USE love. Perhaps while he is thinking about those he loves, some sort of shield is formed."
That makes sense, as that's how LV was squeezed out of Harry when LV possessed him. Harry started to dwell on Sirius Black and suddenly LV was gone, he couldn't abide the love Harry was feeling. I like your analogy to "Wrinkle In Time", haymoni.
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Liz Mann - Aug 1, 2006 11:54 am (#1366 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
So why do so many fans think Harry and Ginny, at their age, are really, truly, permanently in love and that the breakup is a blip on the page and that the relationship MUST be the linchpin the ending of the book turns on? I'm talking about the whole "Love defeats Voldemort so Ginny is needed to defeat Voldemort" stuff you see on so many boards. That's what makes me cranky. Harry as the prophecy boy has to defeat Voldemort on his own as I see it, and his relationships, while important in preparing him, (all of them, not just Ginnny) won't be the sole deciding factor.
I have to agree with you, Die Zimtzicke. I'm a Harry/Ginny shipper but I don't believe that their relationship is going to be the key to the ending, nor do I think they are in love at this point. I hope their feelings can develop into love in the future, but at the moment I think it's just teenage 'like'. Both of them do still have a lot of maturing to do. Harry's a lot more mature than most sixteen/seventeen year olds in a lot of ways (he's far more worldly) but in matters of the heart he still has a lot to learn. Maybe that's partly why J.K. made them split up for the moment. Maybe by the time they get back together (if they do) they'll have grown up more.
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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 2, 2006 8:18 am (#1367 of 1858)
I really think Harry's going to die to defeat Voldemort anyway. I always have. Unless you're reading Disney versions, many heroes wind up dead heroes or lone heros. Jo seems to me to be more of a classical writer. Maybe I'm wrong.
That's why, however, I often get frustrated when you get more discussion on some boards about the ships than you do about major plot points. Thankfully, this board is not so bad that way. I love it here.
I like the "Wrinkle in Time" analogy, but I do not think Jo implied that Harry and Ginny are going to be together in the end. At least not the way she did about Ron and Hermione. She said Harry and Ginny had to come together and part. That's not definitive to me, If I'm wrong and he lives, we can't prove at this point that she will.
I just don't see any ship as being the main thrust of the story, in spite of how many folks in the fandom do concentrate on shipping.
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Liz Mann - Aug 3, 2006 3:08 pm (#1368 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I agree, the shipping is not the main point and many people blow it completely out of proportion.
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Nate Davis - Aug 25, 2006 1:30 pm (#1369 of 1858)
BYU student
Edited by Catherine Aug 26, 2006 4:10 am
Ever since I first read the books (around when GoF the book came out) I've always thought that Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny would happen. I've always really liked all four characters, and I've not only thought that it would happen based on the text, but it's what I would choose to happen myself.
I found a really interesting essay called 'Giving Her the Power: The Characterization of Harry/Ginny,' which painstakingly goes through how Ginny is portrayed in the first five books (it was written before HBP was released). Warning: this is one of the longest essays I've ever read - it took me at least an hour, if I remember right. Here's the URL:
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It seems to me that Jo has always tried to portray Ginny in a positive light, and she's been one of my favorite characters since I've read books five and six. I think her relationship with Harry will be very important to the final book, even though I don't think she'll actually be present at the final showdown.
As far as Ron/Hermione goes, it's interesting to finally have solid confirmation of what I've suspected ever since I first read the books. Their relationship may have some bearing on what happens, but at this point I doubt it will have great impact on the main plot of book seven.
I removed the link to another site. We discourage linking to essays on other sites, as we cannot be responsible for the content found there. I hope you understand.--Catherine
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journeymom - Aug 25, 2006 2:16 pm (#1370 of 1858)
And the drawing of Ginny and Harry at the bottom of the essay isn't too shabby, either! Lovely!
(Yes, very fan girl and shallow of me.)
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Eponine - Aug 25, 2006 2:23 pm (#1371 of 1858)
I beta read that essay! Red did a considerable amount of work pulling all that information together for what she refers to as the BHE (Big Honkin' Essay).
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journeymom - Aug 25, 2006 11:58 pm (#1372 of 1858)
Eponine, that is way cool to know!
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Liz Mann - Aug 26, 2006 10:02 am (#1373 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I'm in the process of reading this essay at the moment. I'm up to 'Travelling Eyes'.
While I do think that Harry/Ginny was discreetly developed from very early on (whereas Ron/Hermione was developed very loudly), I'm wondering why this writer is pointing to such very tiny details when there are other, more significant ones. For example, the fact that Harry likes humour. I agree that this is one of the reasons why he likes her, but the example she chose to use was:
"Some'n say m'name?" Mundungus mumbled sleepily. "I 'gree with Sirius..."
He raised a very grubby hand in the air as though voting, his droppy, bagshot eyes unfocused. Ginny giggled.
It's not to say that this isn't an example of Ginny's having a similar sense of humour to Harry (her giggling is a detail that is irrelevant to the plot and the focus of the scene and so must have been put there for a reason), but there are better examples, I think. Like all the times that someone does or says something stupid, and Harry and Ginny glance at each other before trying to hide their laughter. (Harry and Ron do this too, but Ron's a boy.)
Still, the essay seems to be nicely constructed and organised, and very comprehensive, and I'm impressed.
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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 26, 2006 8:18 pm (#1374 of 1858)
Sugarquill is a site where you are supposed to be H/G to post there. If you go to a site that is anti-H/G, they also have very good essays in favor of other ships, or no ships at all.
In that particular example, with Dung, is Ginny looking at Harry? Does she know Harry is looking at her? Is he intentionally looking at her? Does Harry respond in a noticable way? Is he really getting ready to laugh himself? We don't know that. None of that is stated at all. Yet, it's considered proof that Harry and Ginny have a similiar sense of humor, even though Harry isn't amused ANYWHERE in that scene.
As far as ANY ship goes, as far as I'm concerned, an essay doesn't prove anything except the person writing it has gotten to the point where he/she reads the books LOOKING for ways to interpret them to support the writer's ship.
No one really knows what Jo is going to do, and that includes any ship but R/Hr. I think she's been pretty firm on R/Hr, but that's just my interpretation.
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Liz Mann - Aug 27, 2006 6:16 am (#1375 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Yet, it's considered proof that Harry and Ginny have a similiar sense of humor...
Not proof, Die Zimtzicke, evidence.
I agree that she's been very firm on R/Hr, and hasn't said anything definite on H/G yet.
I don't like that example either. There are many other signs to show that Harry and Ginny share a similar sense of humour, as I said before. For example:
"Ah, there's Penelope!" said Percy, smoothing his hair and going pink again. Ginny caught Harry's eye and they both turned away to hide their laughter...
There are other examples but I can't be bothered to go look for them.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 11, 2005 12:37 am (#1376 of 1858)
So Ginny deliberately tried to get Harry's attention, so they could both laugh at her brother. That's quite typical of Ginny.
Harry and Ginny both looking down on Percy, and laughing at him just foreshadows how nasty both of them will be to people when they get together, in my opinion. Pecry tried to help Harry choose classes when he didn't know what to take. Percy was the only one who was worried about Ginny in CoS. He was afraid she was ill, and got on the twins for scaring her. At THAT point, they were just being jerks, which is what they are to almost everyone when they are together.
Harry and Ginny do not become better, more focused people when they are getting together, or during the few weeks they spend together, before he breaks up with her. Maybe that's why Jo said they had to come together and part. I hope so, anyway.
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haymoni - Aug 28, 2006 12:02 pm (#1377 of 1858)
If I think something is funny and I'm trying to hide my laughter and I happen to catch the eye of someone who seems to be thinking the same as I do, it usually sends me over the edge and I have to redouble my efforts.
I don't think Ginny went out of her way to catch Harry's eye regarding Percy. It just happened. Harry is one of the few people who know that Ginny caught Percy snogging with Penelope. It's an inside joke that they can both laugh at.
When Ginny was about to tell them what was going on with her in COS, Percy came over and interrupted, and in full "I am Prefect, hear me roar" fashion, he just assumed that Ginny was about to spill the beans about he and Penelope, when here she was trying to tell them what was really going on.
I had wondered if Percy was really concerned about Ginny or if he just didn't want to be made fun of.
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The One - Aug 28, 2006 1:47 pm (#1378 of 1858)
Open minded sceptic
I think that Percy really was concerned about Ginny. As he was really concerned about Ron in GoF.
I think he really wants to be part of the family as well, but he also want to make career. His desire to leave the powerty (and non-importanness) of his family behind hin hs affected his judgement.
Apart from that, I find two youngster laughing at a slightly older kid trying to impress a girl to be neither overtly shippy nor cruel, it is just the kind of things people do. But it does show a common sense og humour, that is true.
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me and my shadow 813 - Dec 29, 2006 5:48 pm (#1379 of 1858)
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I've been thinking a lot about the couples that we've seen so far and I have some concern. I find most of the women in HP to be more than just assertive or confident or strong. I think Molly is funny, but she is quite domineering. We don't see a lot of her relating with Arthur, but given what we know it seems like she tells everyone what to do and they either do it, or complain and then do it, or deal with her wrath. Ginny strikes me as very similar to her mother and I hope Harry doesn't get under her thumb. Minerva (although not 'ship material as far as we know) is more than a bit firm and unapproachable. Tonks seems like a 'tomboy'. Hermione is demanding to say the least. Ron better watch out or he'll be in the same situation as his father.
I'm wondering two things: where are the soft women? Is it weak to be soft? All we have for soft feminine is Fleur, who is almost mocking femininity, then there's Trelawney who is made to seem pathetic. Luna's my only hope for a soft&strong feminine model, and I hope Harry ends up with her. As far as Hermione, I do love her character but I think she'd be better off with Viktor, if he could develop other interests besides sports. Any thoughts?
I should point out that I am female, in case other women of the forum are upset by these statements coming from a male.
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Puck - Dec 29, 2006 6:52 pm (#1380 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Lavender and Parvati are pretty "girly". Choo would fit that description as well. Perhaps Harry just doesn't relate well to such people, so we don't see much of such characters.
Harry would never allow himself to be fully "under a thumb", and I doubt think Ginny would be happy if he was.
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me and my shadow 813 - Dec 29, 2006 8:05 pm (#1381 of 1858)
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Puck, I'm not sure what you mean by "girly" but it doesn't sound good to me. The female character I most relate to is Luna. A Lavender type, or Parvati, I don't recall much depth shown to us so I don't know, but regarding those two being less "tough" and "loud", they seem to be depicted in a less than positive light, as in silly or dumb for looking up to Trelawney. And Cho also ended up seeming quite helpless or somewhat weak compared to how JKR writes Hermione or Ginny who to me could use some softening. That's why I think Hermione would be better with Viktor, because his brutishness would soften her.
I'm talking here regarding 'shipping. Molly and Arthur, from what we've seen so far, are our only models of adult couple behavior in HP. We've got nothing else to go on and we haven't seen much interaction. But Molly, although very caring, is extremely domineering and I'm not sure why JKR likes to produce the important female characters this way. It just seems like it's tough-chick my-way-or-the-highway types for *major* female characters. I could easily see Ginny turning into Molly. Arthur's never home and Molly's fine with it but she rules the roost. Harry would probably be gone a lot and Ginny'd be fine with it. I see her becoming like that.
So Luna, as the most balanced feminine character for me, should be with Harry, who will be the most balanced masculine character, if not now then by end of book 7. She's confident without being domineering, intelligent without being pushy, and is gentle without being depicted as silly.
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Under The Imperius - Dec 29, 2006 9:42 pm (#1382 of 1858)
Be afraid...Be very afraid...
I could just picture Luna and Harry honeymooning...
Luna-"Harry dear, woulden't you just love to go Crumple-Horned Snorkcack hunting?"
Harry-"Er..."
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Laura W - Dec 30, 2006 12:57 am (#1383 of 1858)
me and my, I have thought this all along - well, since I read Book Four the first time - but, since you have actually come out and said (wrote) it, ... I, too, think Hermoine and Viktor would be good for each other. Not exactly for the reason you gave, however.
Even though she was far from the prettiest girl of those from all three schools who were at Hogwarts for the tournament, and even though - as a professional athelete - the 18-year-old (by my timeline) Krum could have had his pick of dates for the Yule Ball, he chose the relatively plain (at 15, anyway) aloof Hermoine who had shown no interest in him or his fame. I see this as his good judgement. He saw in her brains and character and strength, and was drawn to it. That raised my opinion of him.
This was added to in my mind when he a) was considerate enough to make sure Harry had no designs on Hermoine before pursuing her, and b) gave both Gryffindor champions credit for their excellent flying and sportsmanship and their winning efforts. This shows a lack of big-headedness on Krum's part, although everybody fawns on him. No, this man has character and I like him. I think a strong, intelligent and loving woman like Hermoine would make him an excellent partner. And vice versa.
Laura
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me and my shadow 813 - Dec 30, 2006 1:59 am (#1384 of 1858)
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Laura W - I agree with your reasons and although we know who she ends up with, Viktor's still my vote for Hermione. It's sort of a beauty and the beast tale... she's refined and he's - what does she say in the film - a Physical Being. Perfect for her. I don't see people as a match who bicker all the time, like she does with Ron. If they're bickering now, what happens 25 years down the road? I also like Viktor because I think knowing the dark arts has a positive purpose in this story. He'll be there for Harry.
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Laura W - Dec 30, 2006 2:25 am (#1385 of 1858)
Blast! Too late to edit!
I wrote, "gave both Gryffindor champions credit for ...". Of course what I meant was, "gave both Hogwarts champions credit for ...". Cedric was in Hufflepuff house. I know that. (hitting myself over head with new frying pan)
LW
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Liz Mann - Dec 30, 2006 9:15 am (#1386 of 1858)
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Arthur's never home and Molly's fine with it but she rules the roost.
She doesn't seem fine with it to me. Whenever he has to work late or overtime she seems sad. Yes, Molly is quite domineering but there is obviously a lot of affection between her and her husband (Mollywobbles!). I think J.K. was kind of playing around with a stereotype with Molly and Arthur.
I think Harry does relate to girls like Ginny and Hermione better than softer females (though, to be fair, Hermione can often be soft, and we've seen softer moments in Ginny too), because they're more like himself. He wants a girlfriend that can be a friend too, who he can have fun with. Besides that, with Harry's rashness and temper, he needs someone who can keep his feet on the ground. I don't think Ginny will put him under her thumb, because Harry is by no means a mild man and wouldn't allow himself to be put under anyone's thumb, but I do think she will keep his head out of the clouds. A milder female will probably find herself frequently under his thumb, and she would probably tire of his moods and angsting and tendancy to be melodramatic.
I don't see people as a match who bicker all the time, like she does with Ron. If they're bickering now, what happens 25 years down the road?
They bicker so much because they're opposites. But at the same time the fact that they're opposites is a good thing. Ron will teach Hermione to lighten up a little and Hermione will teach Ron to be more serious and focused. What they need to do is settle into a system where they can use their differences rather than be dominated by them. Besides, opposites attract. I also think they bicker so much becasue there is so much sexual tension between them. Once they get together that should be resolved and the bickering should soften down a bit. Not go away completely, that would be a shame really , but they might not do it as much.
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me and my shadow 813 - Dec 30, 2006 11:28 am (#1387 of 1858)
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Laura W - thanks, I knew what you meant. Put the frying pan down.
Liz Mann - thanks for your post. I didn't intend it as an insult when I said Molly is fine with Arthur being away a lot. I meant that Ginny is supposed to be perfect for Harry because she wouldn't be the possessive type, so I was showing the similarity to Molly's independence. Of course Ginny would be sad that Harry's away a lot, just as I'm sure Molly is.
I basically enjoy Molly, like I said I think she's funny and I know tons of women/mothers like her, so, as you pointed out, they are a stereotype. I just don't see, if they are the only real adult couple we get to see so far, why she'd decide to portray them this way. In A Very Frosty Christmas chapter, a rare scene with Molly trying to connect with her husband, Arthur is completely unresponsive. That scene makes me pity her, not think they have a lot of affection. So, if this is our rare peek into their intimacy, why write it that way? (Thank goodness for the Mollywobbles remark).
Regarding opposites, I do believe they attract and that's what I meant about Hermione and Viktor. I can see her and Ron being opposites but not in a good way. Ron is so unsure of himself and Hermione is confident. To me, their relationship would be Hermione trying to bolster Ron's confidence, like in Quidditch tryouts. Viktor is more her equal as far as feeling confident and accomplished. She needs someone she admires, not someone she feels superior to. Any thoughts?
I do think Remus and Tonks are a good match. I think he'll soften her and she doesn't see him as a charity case.
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Thom Matheson - Dec 30, 2006 1:30 pm (#1388 of 1858)
With 7 kids, believe me there is intimancy. They have been together since they were teens. There is most certainly a mutual respect and admiration between them. The fact that JKR hasn't shown us doesn't make it necessarily not that way.
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me and my shadow 813 - Dec 30, 2006 2:38 pm (#1389 of 1858)
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Thom wrote - The fact that JKR hasn't shown us doesn't make it necessarily not that way.
The above rationale works only some of the time for me. A story must be taken at face value at some point in order for the reader to discern whether or not they relate, accept, reject, etc., to the story. I know 'shipping is a minor aspect of the story, and I'm all for speculation, but I'm curious about how people and relationships are portrayed in HP and why. Severus's personality is portayed in a certain way in order to illustrate a certain type of person and what that means about ourselves, the reader. That's the author's objective with novels which revolve around relationship, is to explore behavior/subconscious/impetus/will. I think the trouble with this story is we have such complex relationships occurring, that for me other relationships appear, in comparison, to be weak in ways.
I'm not too concerned about Molly's lovelife. I really started posting here because the major women in this series seem to tilt the scales in portraying *important* women as overbearing. It concerns me but perhaps JKR did it because it's wartime in this particular story and folks have to harden their shells. Or maybe it's just the way she views strong women. Gladly, JKR has said she loves Luna and I think she's the closest there is to a well-rounded feminine figure.
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TomProffitt - Dec 30, 2006 3:49 pm (#1390 of 1858)
Bullheaded empiricist
"I really started posting here because the major women in this series seem to tilt the scales in portraying *important* women as overbearing." --- me and my shadow 813
I wouldn't use the word "overbearing" myself. I think what we're seeing is what Rowling views as admirable traits; all of her key characters (male and female) are independent, self-reliant, and assertive to a certain degree, or else they are developing those traits. To my point of view Molly and Arthur have a relationship of equals; Molly seems the leader, but it appears to me that Arthur is only "standing up to her" when he feels it necessary. And for the rest of it, there are things an adult just doesn't do in front his teen-age child's friends. We are limited by Harry's Point of View.
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Liz Mann - Dec 30, 2006 5:13 pm (#1391 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Ron is so unsure of himself and Hermione is confident.
I think Hermione's only outwardly confident, because J.K. has related her to herself when she was young, insecure on the inside and compensates for it by getting everything right all the time.
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journeymom - Dec 30, 2006 5:18 pm (#1392 of 1858)
"That's why I think Hermione would be better with Viktor, because his brutishness would soften her. " Eeek! Perhaps brutish isn't the best word? I can't see Hermione putting up with brutish for a second.
Women do not require softening. Is it weak to be soft? I ask, is it wrong for a woman to be strong? The major female characters are strong because that's what JKR likes. I know I -love- the female characters she created. Dolores Umbridge is the worst, most hateful character in the whole story, in my opinion. She's the one I love to hate.
I guess I disagree with the definition of a well-rounded woman, if Luna is it. She's too out there. In the daily grind of a relationship she'd drive Harry up a wall. Don't get me wrong, she's lovable and obviously talented and smart. And in HBP Harry demonstrated he'd grown up a bit by the way he related to Luna. Basically he'd learned to be polite and value her friendship in spite of her odd behavior.
In A Very Frosty Christmas Arthur rolls his eyes at Molly's Christmas radio tradition. Actually, I felt a little hurt for her, as well. But I think it's supposed to be comical. Arthur was unresponsive in that scene, but their affection is a given, it is implied, it is not explicitly portrayed.
Other couples to consider are Narcissa and Lucius Malfoy and Petunia and Vernon Dursley.
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Oh, I was also going to agree that from what little we've seen of Viktor he seems a better match for Hermione than Ron. I know there's the adage, opposites attract. And JKR appears to be utilizing that here. Opposite traits might attract people initially but often turn out to be the very thing that irritate couples to no end eventually. Hermione might think Ron's silliness and lack of academic ambition is endearing now but eventually she'd lose respect for Ron. However, JKR is the creator here, and if anybody can reveal how Ron and Hermione get together satisfactorily, she can. Or perhaps it's a given now. I really don't see Hermione with anyone other than Ron.
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Die Zimtzicke - Dec 30, 2006 7:51 pm (#1393 of 1858)
One thing about ships...as far as Fleur and Bill, Fleur is by no means a soft, girly girl. She's tough as nails underneath, as I see it, and certainly highly-motivated, or she wouldn't have made it to champion. In that match, Bill seems more like his dad to me, very easy going, while she's the opinionated one.
I don't think the idea that Luna is too out of it to be with anyone is fair. I think a lot of that dreaminess is a front. She snaps back to reality quickly enough when she has to. When Hermione insults her father is one example, and when she explains about using the thestrals to get to London is another. She gets picked on, perhaps, because she's a bit eccentric, so she sometimes goes along with it and becomes more eccentric, but she is a loyal friend. Her serene disposition could suit someone quite well, if Jo were so inclined.
As for Molly, I think she's extremely overbearing, but Arthur can always go out an putter about in the shed till the worst of it blows over. He loves her, and I'm sure she loves him, but she's definitely got the stronger personality as I see it. When he has stood up to her, it's only because she's been in the minority and he's had plenty of support, if I remember correctly. I'm thinking of the scene at Grimmauld Place, when they're telling Harry about the Order against her wishes.
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journeymom - Dec 30, 2006 8:34 pm (#1394 of 1858)
Die Zim, I don't know if you are responding to my comments about Luna, but I did not mean to say she's too out there for anyone, but specifically for Harry. I can't see her with any of the currently existing characters but maybe she'll meet the perfect guy later. Maybe JKR will never finalize that story. And I agree, she has her moments of clarity. And she does get her point across, even if the relevance is obscure.
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Puck - Dec 30, 2006 10:01 pm (#1395 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Molly is the mother of 6 boys -two of them being Fred and George. I think her strong personality would be necessary for survival. However, as Dr. Phil would say, she would be a "soft place to fall" for any of her family/friends. Her harshness comes from love and worry, a mother hen protecting her chicks. You can't get any more "feminine" than that.
I don't think it's Ron's sillines that Hermione likes. They have been through so much together. She knows how far he will go for a friend, that he would stand by her side, no matter what. I agree the bickering has been an outlet for tension due to unspoken feelings.
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me and my shadow 813 - Dec 31, 2006 4:39 pm (#1396 of 1858)
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Liz Mann wrote - I think Hermione's only outwardly confident, because J.K. has related her to herself when she was young, insecure on the inside and compensates for it by getting everything right all the time.
I do agree Liz. However, to me that could be said of 95% of the adult population, let alone adolescents. I feel Hermione is more confident compared to Ron. In HBP, Harry spends long periods of time trying encourage him to no avail. I know he's the youngest son and has been picked on by his brothers, etc., but I thought he was sort of pathetic in HBP. I would love if this is just a phase, and to see him get through it, which might be what JKR has in mind. But for now, if I were Hermione (knowing all that we know and not assuming all sorts of conjured backstory about her time spent with Viktor) I'd be more attracted to Viktor by far.
Yes it seems JKR likes to portray women as "strong", which in the story to me, in many cases, translates as loud and obnoxious. I'd be curious to go back through the books and count how many quotes end in exclamation points, seeing the percentage that come out of the mouths of female characters. (we'd have to discount spellcasting and the entire Flight of the Prince chapter just to be fair).
And what I meant by "brutish" is the classic Beauty & the Beast phenomenon. It is a very real mutual attraction that could only "irritate" later if the two people involved aren't willing to learn and grow from eachother which, to me, is the whole point.
I welcome any thoughts and opinions.
(Edited for grammar)
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journeymom - Dec 31, 2006 5:13 pm (#1397 of 1858)
The only problem with Viktor is that he's not there. Ron is!
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The Wandless Wizard - Dec 31, 2006 6:53 pm (#1398 of 1858)
When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
There is another problem with Viktor. I hate to say the obvious. Love isn't math and brains. It is heart and soul, and it rarely ever makes sense. There is no formula to tell who will be a good couple. You fall in love and no longer see reason. Viktor Krum might be the better match for Hermione. The formulas, personality tests, psycho-anylizing and all the common sense in the world might say Krum is perfect for her. But Ron has her heart. That is all that matters. Maybe one day he'll lose it, but that day has not come yet. Until it does, Ron and Hermione are the ones meant for each other.
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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 1, 2007 5:11 pm (#1399 of 1858)
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I watched PS last night and did find myself respecting Ron's chessplaying ability. I'm not generally in favor of sacrifice, but that's a war game for you. I will give Ron the benefit of the doubt that he must be capable of complex strategy and seeing the big picture, so he's not the dullest knife in the drawer.
journeymom, I can't bear to think of Narcissa and Lucius's relationship, nor Vernon and Pet's. But I see your point, those men aren't "henpecked".
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journeymom - Jan 1, 2007 11:04 pm (#1400 of 1858)
Me and My, I wasn't making that conclusion at all, but now that you point it out, I have to agree! I was simply suggesting two more married couples that we know a little about that we might consider.
For the most part, Vernon seems to be the one in charge, though Petunia is never cowed. In OotP when Harry and Dudley were attacked by dementors and Harry was threatened with expulsion, Vernon was fit to be tied, ready to kick Harry out on his ear. Petunia, as well. Then she gets Dumbledore's howler and changes tack and says Harry will have to stay. Vernon deflates like a balloon and says, "But Petunia, Dear, why?" Or something. I've always liked that image of Vernon deflating.
But my considerations of the Dursleys' relationship got me thinking about something else...
Nah, there just isn't enough to it. I was trying to make a comparison between Petunia and Vernon to Eileen and Tobias Snape. Pet has a magical sister and married the mugglest of muggles. Eileen Prince was a witch and married a muggle. Pet is sour, Eileen the student was described as sour (or not pleasant or whatever). I can't help but see similarities between Petunia and Severus Snape. But I don't know to what end. Can we learn anything about Snape's home life by comparing it Harry's home life? I guess not. That's just stretching it a bit much.
Ah well.
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 1401 to 1450)
Elanor Sun May 15, 2011 10:05 am
me and my shadow 813 - Jan 1, 2007 11:27 pm (#1401 of 1858)
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"I can't help but see similarities between Petunia and Severus Snape."
I started a thread called Severus and the Evans Sisters a while back and (for about a day) was convinced Petunia and Severus had a "thing" or that he broke her heart. It was ridiculous but we all have our insane speculations now and again.
I think there's definitely something to comparing Severus's home life to Harry's, as well Harry's to Vold's. To me, that's the basis of *why* Harry's capacity for love is why he'll defeat Vold. Not because Harry's the only person in the entire WW who has the capacity to love. But because he's the only one who *despite* such a grievous childhood can... that the grief, fear, etc. didn't get twisted into blind hatred and revenge. Eleven years with Vernon and Pet could have done it...
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journeymom - Jan 2, 2007 9:36 am (#1402 of 1858)
"It was ridiculous but we all have our insane speculations now and again. "
Lol! I remember that thread and remember that you were not the only one who considered it.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 3, 2007 12:59 pm (#1403 of 1858)
An post HBP interview with Dan Radcliffe that was done by a Mexican Journalist was just released and Dan thinks Harry is probably going to die, but that he would be better suited to Luna as far as relationships go, if my sources are correct. I'm trying to download it but it's taking forever. Anyone got the whole transcript, and does it mention anything else about shipping?
If this should be someplace else, I hope the mods will move it for me. I wasn't sure if it went better here or in the movie folder. Dan's certainly entitled to his opinion, like anyone else.
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journeymom - Jan 3, 2007 1:08 pm (#1404 of 1858)
Lol! Die Zimtzicke, considering your strongly stated opinion of Ginny, you must be a little satisfied hearing this news.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 3, 2007 1:14 pm (#1405 of 1858)
If it is actually what I was told it was, (Dratted Realplayer!) it's not news. It's been said several times before. As a Dead Harry fan who doesn't care for Ginny, yes, it would be fun to hear, but I want to see the whole thing before I decide.
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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 3, 2007 5:00 pm (#1406 of 1858)
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he would be better suited to Luna as far as relationships go
~woo hoo~
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Liz Mann - Jan 4, 2007 10:52 am (#1407 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Do we really know it's Dan's opinion? It might be David Yates's opinion, and he's putting loads of Luna-Harry scenes in OotP because of it (like I get the feeling that Mike Newell likes the idea of Harry/Hermione because there seemed to be a lot of bits for them in GoF). Dan has to talk about how great all the major things in the film is and why, and since Luna is a fairly major addition he has to talk enthusiastically about her.
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haymoni - Jan 4, 2007 11:22 am (#1408 of 1858)
Maybe it's really a Dan/Evanna thing.
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The Wandless Wizard - Jan 4, 2007 11:32 am (#1409 of 1858)
When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Liz, I got the same impression from GoF. The Harry/Hermione connection came through pretty clear in the movie version of GoF. Someone I know who watches the movies but doesn't read the books asked me who Hermione has a crush on after GoF. CoS makes it look like Ron, but GoF completely changes that. It might just be because that is the book where Ron is mad at Harry so a lot of the scenes have Hermione and Harry, but no Ron. Still, it looked like the director was trying to get more than friendship across.
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Elanor - Jan 4, 2007 11:37 am (#1410 of 1858)
Still... I do like the idea of Harry/Luna much better than Harry/Ginny!
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Liz Mann - Jan 4, 2007 3:47 pm (#1411 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Well I have always been a Harry/Ginny... No sorry, that's not true, I used to be a Harry/Cho fan until I first started coming online. And OotP definitely put me off that pairing for good. But I've been a Harry/Ginny fan since I abandoned Harry/Cho, and I think I've always been a Ron/Hermione fan.
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Hoot Owl - Jan 5, 2007 4:20 pm (#1412 of 1858)
Teacher
In the end the only opinion that matters is JKR's. The author not the fans nor the actors will decide the outcome!
That doesn't mean we or they are not able to express that opinion.
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Starling - Jan 10, 2007 3:39 am (#1413 of 1858)
Harry/Luna? Goodness, no, it's Neville/Luna all the way.
I don't think Newell is a Harry/Hermione shipper. If Hermione had a thing for Harry, she'd have never hugged him like that. That's how teenagers are. Shown quite nicely at the end of CoS, actually. Typical teenage awkwardness between Ron and Hermione!
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Liz Mann - Jan 10, 2007 7:54 am (#1414 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Well, that's a good point.
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journeymom - Jan 10, 2007 12:01 pm (#1415 of 1858)
Neville/Luna: I think JKR shot that one down. She said Luna is too alarming for Neville. I'll see if I can hunt that down.
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"Luna and Neville will hook up in HP&THBP
The Luna/Neville shippers are much less vehement and scary than the Harry/Hermione, Ron/Hermione tribes, so I hope I won’t receive too much hate mail for quashing this rumour. I see Neville and Luna as very different kinds of people and while they share a certain isolation within Hogwarts, I don’t think that’s enough to foster true love - friendship, perhaps, although I think that Neville would always find Luna’s wilder flights of fancy alarming." --Rumours section at Jo's website.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 10, 2007 10:25 pm (#1416 of 1858)
I can't figure out why JKR chose that one to shoot down. It's a cute ship and a lot of fans liked it. It seemed so perfectly harmless. WHY shoot down Neville/Luna, of all things? Unless she realized that having them together at the funeral would be taken by a lot of people as confirmation that they were together as a couple, and she has other plans for them.
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The Wandless Wizard - Jan 11, 2007 1:16 am (#1417 of 1858)
When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
The hug in the GoF movie was akward. He was about to face serious danger. Hemione was worried and just couldnt resist. Afterward, then they were both embarrassed. It definitely looked like it was played with some romance under the surface to me. Also, the scene on the bridge. Hermione was leaning up against him and talking softly in his ear. There seemed to be some chemistry there. Maybe he wanted to get them both in frame or wanted to portray they were being secretive, but it looked like he was portraying romance to me.
I assume JKR shot down Neville/Luna cause it was the only ship that wasn't going to be shot down by HBP. JKR pretty firmly established who the big 3 want to be with in that book. I don't think it will change in the next book. So the only major ship left to sink was Neville/Luna. Plus, as she said, it did not have as vehement a fan base, so their were less people to alienate.
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Starling - Jan 11, 2007 4:33 am (#1418 of 1858)
Hug in tent: they looked embarrassed, because their hug wasn't what Rita wanted it to be.
On the bridge: exactly, no awkwardness! No romance. They just feel really comfortable together.
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haymoni - Jan 11, 2007 6:48 am (#1419 of 1858)
JKR told us that she would shoot down theories that were a waste of time.
However, in this case she seems to find it almost comical that we would think these 2 would end up together. When Neville tries to avoid sitting with Luna, he wasn't concerned about his reputation. She really scares him.
We just truly love these 2 characters and wouldn't it be lovely if they turned out to be a match.
But again - Jo's world - Jo says no.
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Honour - Jan 12, 2007 4:12 am (#1420 of 1858)
Reading the books I would have picked a Ron/Luna pairing myself. We see Ron progress from being quite shallow and derisive toward Luna to actually liking her. I always got the impression that Luna found Ron attractive even when he was being rather rude ... but as you say haymoni, "Jo's world - Jo says no.
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journeymom - Jan 12, 2007 11:42 am (#1421 of 1858)
Me too, Honour. When they first meet Luna, she laughs hysterically and just a little bit too long at Ron's joke. I immediately thought that was a hint that she liked him. Again, maybe Luna will never pair up with anybody in DHs. She'll only be, what, 17 years old? She's got time.
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Laura W - Jan 13, 2007 3:18 am (#1422 of 1858)
(stupid nit-pick alert) Harry will be 17. Luna is in Ginny's year: she will be 16.
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By the way, I never saw a Luna-Neville pairing. I agree that she and her weird ways would scare him.
And, yes, on more than one occasion Luna shows a distinct attraction for Ron Weasley. Laughing long and hard at his jokes on the train and saying that she wouldn't have minded going with him to the Yule Ball the previous year - because she doesn't much care for dancing anyway - in OoP: plus a couple of comments she makes in HBP (one to Harry about Ron saying very funny things, giving Ron a present of a Gurdyroot). Although he has gotten used to her - and even kind of likes her - by Book Six, there is obviously *no more than that* on Ron's part. But I strongly suspect Luna feels differently. Of course, being Luna Lovegood, she takes whatever comes or does not come in a very zen-like way.
(I'm really, really routing for her to find a decent, kind young hippie-wizard who will share her beliefs and values, and will love her and their children forever. (wistful sigh) After Voldemort is removed from the scene, of course!)
Laura
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journeymom - Jan 13, 2007 12:18 pm (#1423 of 1858)
Yup, that's why I said Luna Will Be 17. I was, rather too obliquely, referring to the upcoming Deathly Hallows. That's the last opportunity for JKR to pair Luna up with anybody. But she doesn't have to pair her up with anybody at all. I didn't have a boyfriend in twelfth grade and didn't get married until I was 24 y.o. These wizards and witches get married so young!
I wonder if Luna's good love will save Ron in a perilous situation. Neville shows an interest in Ginny (took her to the Yule Ball, among other things) and has protected her a few time.
Hey, I see a pattern! Neville and Harry, the prophecy boys, both like Ginny. Hermione personally dislikes Luna, and are both interested in Ron. I wonder if Hermione picked up on this on some level? Besides the fact that Luna offends Hermione's logical sensibilities.
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haymoni - Jan 14, 2007 9:52 am (#1424 of 1858)
Laura - I see Luna taking over the Quibbler and staying a bit of a loner. It will take a very special wizard to attract our girl.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 14, 2007 10:14 pm (#1425 of 1858)
I really don't understand Ron/Luna. I've tried but I don't. Her laughing at his joke seems to scream "socially inept" to me, and it wasn't something he enjoyed. Watching him like a mildly interesting televison program doesn't sound like love.
Then again, they're neighbors, and he should know her but he doesn't seem to. She doesn't like dancing, but neither does Harry. I think she would have gone to the ball with him the way Ginny went with Neville, just to be in on the action. She hums a tune that at that time would have humiliated him if he'd heard her. Even when he's semi-conscious in OotP, he still calls her Loony. In HBP she thinks he's quite unkind, while he says she's growing on him, but he still thinks she's mad, and Luna doesn't believe Ron when he compliments her commentary. None of this seems romantic at all to me personally, and we have Jo's statement that know we know it's Ron and Hermione.
Incidentally, Luna could turn 17 in DH, depending on when her birthday is. Hermione's going to turn 18 as soon as the book starts. I wish we knew when Luna's birthday is.
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Laura W - Jan 15, 2007 4:49 am (#1426 of 1858)
haymoni, call me a romantic, but I have hope and faith that that " very special wizard" is out there. He may not show up in Book Seven, but my Inner Trelawny sees him in Luna's future. (knowing look)
"and we have Jo's statement that know we know it's Ron and Hermione."
Absolutely, Die! That is a given. As I said, I do not believe Mr. Ronald Weasley is, was or ever will be attracted to Luna. But I - along with Honour and journeymom - still think she likes him a lot. Nonetheless, it's Ron and Hermoine all the way - because that's what Jo wants, and it *is* her world.
Laura
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 15, 2007 11:27 am (#1427 of 1858)
The problem I have with Luna liking Ron a lot is, that when she meets him on the train, he doesn't seem to know her at all and all she seems to know about him is that he's Ginny's brother, and that Padma was dissing him about the Yule Ball. Yet some fans of the pairing that I know insist she was laughing at his jokes and implying she would have gone to the ball with him because she wanted him as a boyfriend. I am not sure if it's a love at first sight mentality at work there, or what, but I can't get into any pairing where the characters think they are in love without getting to know the person in question. And we have no evidence that they know each other, at that point.
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Laura W - Jan 15, 2007 12:22 pm (#1428 of 1858)
I don't think Luna really knows Ron at this point. She has never officially met him. I agree with you there.
But she is a 14-year-old girl. She has been going to the same school as Ronald Weasley for three years. She has undoubtedly seen him in the school on many, many occasions in the last three years; certainly three times a day at mealtimes, in the hallways and at the Quidditch matches. You know how it is. She finds him attractive and starts asking around about him. Or, even if she doesn't ask, news at Hogwarts about everyone and everything seems to spread like wildfire.
So, being kind of shy but definitely interested in (ie - having a crush on) this older boy, Luna is especially attuned to anything she can learn about him from the other students. Gossip and truth alike. Such as the fact that he took Padma Patil to the Yule Ball and she had a terrible time (until she met that Beauxbaton. boy) because her red-headed date wouldn't dance with her. I have no doubt Padma complained endlessly to all the Ravenclaw girls about that.
And then there is the fact that Luna and Ginny are friends. I'm sure Luna's ears picked up every time Ginny talked about her brother. Of course I do not for one moment believe Luna was "in love" with Ron when she first officially met him on the train at the beginning of OoP, or at anytime throughout that or the next year. You don't have to know someone well to think they are attractive and funny and would make a good boyfriend; in other words, to have a crush on them. Especially when you are a teenager.
(hey, this is fun. i usually write about such serious stuff. maybe I should write romance novels. just kidding! hee, hee)
Laura
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 15, 2007 10:17 pm (#1429 of 1858)
But Jo has sunk Ron/Luna, like she has sunk Neville/Luna and Harry/Cho. Why does she sink certain ships and let other, even what she would certainly consider even more bizarre pairings, go on? How does she choose?
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Thom Matheson - Jan 15, 2007 10:21 pm (#1430 of 1858)
Die, what's that 50s song? "Stupid Cupid, stop picking on me."
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 15, 2007 10:29 pm (#1431 of 1858)
Connie Francis did "Stupid Cupid". It came out on September 26, 1958 and stayed on the charts at #1 for six weeks.
God, I AM old!
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Thom Matheson - Jan 15, 2007 10:32 pm (#1432 of 1858)
Connie Francis? Tell me you had to look that up and not just from memory?
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Honour - Jan 16, 2007 5:42 am (#1433 of 1858)
Actually Die I agree with you about Luna/Ron. I too didn't think that it was mutual love at first sight, but I do think that Luna had on previous occassions 'noticed' Ron. She also 'reads' Ron quite accurately, and IMHO sees past his somewhat rude (too harsh a word?), maybe Ron's unsubtleness.
Once again IMHO, if sticking with JKR's "formula" i.e. Harry falling for Ginny because she looks like his mum, is brave like Lily etc. etc. and because JKR deems it so, then to me, it is Luna who reminds me more of Molly than Hermione does. I have always had the impression that JKR had decided that Ginny would be paired with Harry and that she tied up the loose ends of Hermione and Ron by pairing them off, but then as I have said this is only my humble opinion, and after all it is Jo's opinion who matters most
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journeymom - Jan 16, 2007 10:56 am (#1434 of 1858)
"But Jo has sunk Ron/Luna, like she has sunk Neville/Luna and Harry/Cho. Why does she sink certain ships and let other, even what she would certainly consider even more bizarre pairings, go on? How does she choose? " -Die Zim
Yes, JKR shot down the above mentioned 'ships. She doesn't intend those people to pair up with those other people. But in real life people have crushes on people that are not available. I think Neville didn't stop liking Ginny just because Ginny got together with Harry. And IF Luna liked Ron, I don't think she stopped liking him when he got together with Hermione (or Lavendar, for that matter).
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 16, 2007 11:14 am (#1435 of 1858)
In HBP Luna refers to Ron and says he says funny things at times, "But he can be a bit unkind. I noticed that last year."
If she ever did like him, it sounds like the bloom is starting to fade off the rose there.
I agree that Neville didn't stop liking Ginny. If he had he wouldn't have gotten involved with the Inquisitorial squad to try to help her. I expect him to come up again in relation to her in some way in the last book. If Jo has script approval, like she said she did (we were just discussing this in the OotP film thread, if you need the exact quote) I can't see why Ginny stayed out all night with Neville in GoF. Very mysterious. I hope Jo's not letting them condense Michael and Dean into Neville. Neville is too well liked to be used in that way. It would make them leaving out the Marauders look like a non-issue by comparison.
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Eponine - Jan 16, 2007 3:43 pm (#1436 of 1858)
If he had, he wouldn't have gotten involved with the Inquisitorial squad to try to help her.
I honestly do not understand this line of reasoning. Neville wouldn't have helped Ginny if he wasn't romantically interested in her? He would have left her there if he didn't like her that way?
Neville is not so petty that he would leave a friend at the mercies of the Inquisitorial Squad if he wasn't romantically interested in them.
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journeymom - Jan 16, 2007 5:32 pm (#1437 of 1858)
No, I don't think he would not have helped. But I vaguely remember Neville said or did something that was Ginny-oriented. I'll see if I can find it.
=======================
OP US p. 742 "Got 'em all, " said Warrington, shoving Ron roughly forward into the room. "That one, " he poked a thick finger a t Neville, "tried to stop me taking her," he pointed at Ginny, who was trying to kick the shins of the large Slytherin girl holding her, "so I brought him along too."
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Eponine - Jan 16, 2007 5:42 pm (#1438 of 1858)
Oh, I'm not debating that Neville helped Ginny, and that's what got him involved.
That one,' he poked a thick finger at Neville, 'tried to stop me taking her,' he pointed at Ginny, who was trying to kick the shins of the large Slytherin girl holding her, 'so I brought him along too.' - OotP
But I fail to see how that can be used as evidence that he has a crush on her. Personally, if I was taking bets on who Neville was crushing on, I'd pick Hermione. After all, she was his first choice to the Yule Ball, not Ginny.
ETA: posted while you were finding the quote!
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journeymom - Jan 16, 2007 5:54 pm (#1439 of 1858)
Good point. I just finished re-reading OP and your comment, Eponine, reminded something that I do not understand.
P.794 Harry tells Neville, "I'll bet you can get Hermione up the corridor and into the lift.... Then you could find someone.... Raise the alarm..."
"And whad are you going do do?" said Neville, mopping his bleeding nose with his sleeve and frowning at Harry.
"I've got to find the others, " said Harry.
"Well, I'b going do find dem wid you," said Neville firmly.
"But Hermione- "
"We'll dake her wid us," said Neville firmly. "I'll carry her- You're bedder at fighding dem dan I ab-"
He stood up and seized one of Hermione's arms, glared at Harry, who hesitated, then grabbed the other and helped hoist Hermione's limp form over Neville's shoulders.
Does Neville glare at Harry because Harry seemingly didn't want to cooperate? Why does Harry hesitate? Maybe he just doesn't want to bring along injured Neville and Hermione sack-of-potatoes because it would slow him down?
Can we contrast this with Lucius, who ordered the DE's to leave Nott Sr behind?
Perhaps I should take this to the "Odd Things" thread.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 17, 2007 10:30 am (#1440 of 1858)
Neville's more the type to try to reason with someone, or to go get help from someone, than to take decisive action on his own. He's not a leader. He's a loyal follower. I'm not saying he's in love with Ginny or has a deep crush on her. But it seems like he feels a special affection for her, that makes him more assertive than he usually is. He didn't know where they were taking Ginny or why. It didn't have to be that big of an emergency to him that he had to stand up to those other students at that minute. They weren't Death Eaters...just other students.
He could have followed to see what was up, or any number of other things. He still likes her, which is hardly a bad thing.
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Steve Newton - Jan 17, 2007 11:08 am (#1441 of 1858)
Librarian
I have to disagree. Neville has been the embodiment of decisive action. He has charged Crabbe, Goyle, and Malfoy. He asked for a date to the Yule Ball immediately, he charged into a room of DEs to be with Harry. When Harry has his vision of Mr. Weasley and the snake Neville goes for help. I think this is decisive because he figured out immediately that this was something that the kids could not handle. I can't think of anyone who has taken more decisive action in the series.
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Eponine - Jan 17, 2007 12:33 pm (#1442 of 1858)
I'm going to have to agree with Steve here. We have more than enough evidence of Neville taking action when confronted with something, especially when his friends are involved. Not only that, we have Neville standing up to his friends (in PS/SS) when he thought they were doing something wrong.
If he can stand up to his friends at age 11 over a little matter like house points, I think he's more than capable of standing up to some bullies at age 15 when they're dragging one of his friends off. (I doubt Ginny went willingly with the IS.)
I still see no evidence in the books that implies that Neville has any more feelings for Ginny than that of friendship. Yes, they went to the ball together, but she was his second choice as was he for her. Yes, he tried to save her from the IS, but that's hardly proof of his feelings as he likely would have done the same for Harry, Ron or Hermione.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 18, 2007 12:13 pm (#1443 of 1858)
If someone wants to interpret actions by Neville as possible foreshadowing for N/G, I'm just saying that I understand where they are coming from. I'm not sure if Jo will go that way, but I wouldn't be surprised if she did. Actually, I think it could be done well, and I'd be pleased if it was.
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Eponine - Jan 18, 2007 7:00 pm (#1444 of 1858)
Out of curiosity, if you dislike Ginny so much, why would you wish her on Neville? I mean, your posts seem to indicate that you think very little of her, and it seems extremely incongruous to me to pair someone who you clearly can't stand up with someone you seem to like.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 19, 2007 4:48 pm (#1445 of 1858)
I can't stand her with Harry. They bring out the worst in each other as I see it. When they were together, they acted like jerks to a lot of people. Ginny and Neville seem at their best with each other. I see potential for them making each other better people. They build up each others strengths and cancel out each other's weaknesses. Ginny and Harry have some of the same strengths and weaknesses. There's no support there, and no way for them to think outside of their own little box. I am not completely without hope that anyone in this series can, through their experiences, become a better person, with the possible exception of Voldemort.
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Eponine - Jan 19, 2007 7:01 pm (#1446 of 1858)
I don't know. From what you've said in the past, a lot of the things you dislike about Ginny didn't occur while she was in a relationship with Harry (i.e. stealing the diary back, crashing into/hexing Zacharias, yelling at Ron about Dean, wanting to go along to the Ministry, refusing Luna's help at the Ministry). So if you disliked her so much while she wasn't in a relationship with Harry, why would you think she'd be any better with Neville?
And quite frankly, I have absolutely no recollection of any example in the books of Ginny and Neville being at their best with each other. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain the two of them have had very little canon interaction, let alone enough to indicate that they would bring out the best in each other.
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Thom Matheson - Jan 19, 2007 8:35 pm (#1447 of 1858)
Die, the one thing that I noticed only in book six is that Ginny seems able to calm Harry down. When no one eles can get through to Harry she seems able to. Must be the smell of her hair.
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Liz Mann - Jan 20, 2007 7:14 am (#1448 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Harry and Ginny perhaps can be a little mean together, but they can be just as mean apart too, and they're only fifteen and sixteen, they have plenty of time to grow out of it.
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Steve Newton - Jan 20, 2007 7:19 am (#1449 of 1858)
Librarian
Thom, Ginny does a pretty good job of calming Harry in OOTP, too. At Grimmaud Place when Harry is having thoughts of running.
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Elanor - Jan 20, 2007 7:54 am (#1450 of 1858)
Luna does has this effect on Harry too in OotP. In fact, she is the only one able to "reach" him when Harry is "prisoner" of his anger and grief after Sirius's death. I do think this passage of the series is very important.
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"I can't help but see similarities between Petunia and Severus Snape."
I started a thread called Severus and the Evans Sisters a while back and (for about a day) was convinced Petunia and Severus had a "thing" or that he broke her heart. It was ridiculous but we all have our insane speculations now and again.
I think there's definitely something to comparing Severus's home life to Harry's, as well Harry's to Vold's. To me, that's the basis of *why* Harry's capacity for love is why he'll defeat Vold. Not because Harry's the only person in the entire WW who has the capacity to love. But because he's the only one who *despite* such a grievous childhood can... that the grief, fear, etc. didn't get twisted into blind hatred and revenge. Eleven years with Vernon and Pet could have done it...
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journeymom - Jan 2, 2007 9:36 am (#1402 of 1858)
"It was ridiculous but we all have our insane speculations now and again. "
Lol! I remember that thread and remember that you were not the only one who considered it.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 3, 2007 12:59 pm (#1403 of 1858)
An post HBP interview with Dan Radcliffe that was done by a Mexican Journalist was just released and Dan thinks Harry is probably going to die, but that he would be better suited to Luna as far as relationships go, if my sources are correct. I'm trying to download it but it's taking forever. Anyone got the whole transcript, and does it mention anything else about shipping?
If this should be someplace else, I hope the mods will move it for me. I wasn't sure if it went better here or in the movie folder. Dan's certainly entitled to his opinion, like anyone else.
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journeymom - Jan 3, 2007 1:08 pm (#1404 of 1858)
Lol! Die Zimtzicke, considering your strongly stated opinion of Ginny, you must be a little satisfied hearing this news.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 3, 2007 1:14 pm (#1405 of 1858)
If it is actually what I was told it was, (Dratted Realplayer!) it's not news. It's been said several times before. As a Dead Harry fan who doesn't care for Ginny, yes, it would be fun to hear, but I want to see the whole thing before I decide.
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me and my shadow 813 - Jan 3, 2007 5:00 pm (#1406 of 1858)
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he would be better suited to Luna as far as relationships go
~woo hoo~
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Liz Mann - Jan 4, 2007 10:52 am (#1407 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Do we really know it's Dan's opinion? It might be David Yates's opinion, and he's putting loads of Luna-Harry scenes in OotP because of it (like I get the feeling that Mike Newell likes the idea of Harry/Hermione because there seemed to be a lot of bits for them in GoF). Dan has to talk about how great all the major things in the film is and why, and since Luna is a fairly major addition he has to talk enthusiastically about her.
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haymoni - Jan 4, 2007 11:22 am (#1408 of 1858)
Maybe it's really a Dan/Evanna thing.
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The Wandless Wizard - Jan 4, 2007 11:32 am (#1409 of 1858)
When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Liz, I got the same impression from GoF. The Harry/Hermione connection came through pretty clear in the movie version of GoF. Someone I know who watches the movies but doesn't read the books asked me who Hermione has a crush on after GoF. CoS makes it look like Ron, but GoF completely changes that. It might just be because that is the book where Ron is mad at Harry so a lot of the scenes have Hermione and Harry, but no Ron. Still, it looked like the director was trying to get more than friendship across.
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Elanor - Jan 4, 2007 11:37 am (#1410 of 1858)
Still... I do like the idea of Harry/Luna much better than Harry/Ginny!
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Liz Mann - Jan 4, 2007 3:47 pm (#1411 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Well I have always been a Harry/Ginny... No sorry, that's not true, I used to be a Harry/Cho fan until I first started coming online. And OotP definitely put me off that pairing for good. But I've been a Harry/Ginny fan since I abandoned Harry/Cho, and I think I've always been a Ron/Hermione fan.
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Hoot Owl - Jan 5, 2007 4:20 pm (#1412 of 1858)
Teacher
In the end the only opinion that matters is JKR's. The author not the fans nor the actors will decide the outcome!
That doesn't mean we or they are not able to express that opinion.
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Starling - Jan 10, 2007 3:39 am (#1413 of 1858)
Harry/Luna? Goodness, no, it's Neville/Luna all the way.
I don't think Newell is a Harry/Hermione shipper. If Hermione had a thing for Harry, she'd have never hugged him like that. That's how teenagers are. Shown quite nicely at the end of CoS, actually. Typical teenage awkwardness between Ron and Hermione!
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Liz Mann - Jan 10, 2007 7:54 am (#1414 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Well, that's a good point.
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journeymom - Jan 10, 2007 12:01 pm (#1415 of 1858)
Neville/Luna: I think JKR shot that one down. She said Luna is too alarming for Neville. I'll see if I can hunt that down.
=======================
"Luna and Neville will hook up in HP&THBP
The Luna/Neville shippers are much less vehement and scary than the Harry/Hermione, Ron/Hermione tribes, so I hope I won’t receive too much hate mail for quashing this rumour. I see Neville and Luna as very different kinds of people and while they share a certain isolation within Hogwarts, I don’t think that’s enough to foster true love - friendship, perhaps, although I think that Neville would always find Luna’s wilder flights of fancy alarming." --Rumours section at Jo's website.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 10, 2007 10:25 pm (#1416 of 1858)
I can't figure out why JKR chose that one to shoot down. It's a cute ship and a lot of fans liked it. It seemed so perfectly harmless. WHY shoot down Neville/Luna, of all things? Unless she realized that having them together at the funeral would be taken by a lot of people as confirmation that they were together as a couple, and she has other plans for them.
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The Wandless Wizard - Jan 11, 2007 1:16 am (#1417 of 1858)
When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
The hug in the GoF movie was akward. He was about to face serious danger. Hemione was worried and just couldnt resist. Afterward, then they were both embarrassed. It definitely looked like it was played with some romance under the surface to me. Also, the scene on the bridge. Hermione was leaning up against him and talking softly in his ear. There seemed to be some chemistry there. Maybe he wanted to get them both in frame or wanted to portray they were being secretive, but it looked like he was portraying romance to me.
I assume JKR shot down Neville/Luna cause it was the only ship that wasn't going to be shot down by HBP. JKR pretty firmly established who the big 3 want to be with in that book. I don't think it will change in the next book. So the only major ship left to sink was Neville/Luna. Plus, as she said, it did not have as vehement a fan base, so their were less people to alienate.
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Starling - Jan 11, 2007 4:33 am (#1418 of 1858)
Hug in tent: they looked embarrassed, because their hug wasn't what Rita wanted it to be.
On the bridge: exactly, no awkwardness! No romance. They just feel really comfortable together.
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haymoni - Jan 11, 2007 6:48 am (#1419 of 1858)
JKR told us that she would shoot down theories that were a waste of time.
However, in this case she seems to find it almost comical that we would think these 2 would end up together. When Neville tries to avoid sitting with Luna, he wasn't concerned about his reputation. She really scares him.
We just truly love these 2 characters and wouldn't it be lovely if they turned out to be a match.
But again - Jo's world - Jo says no.
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Honour - Jan 12, 2007 4:12 am (#1420 of 1858)
Reading the books I would have picked a Ron/Luna pairing myself. We see Ron progress from being quite shallow and derisive toward Luna to actually liking her. I always got the impression that Luna found Ron attractive even when he was being rather rude ... but as you say haymoni, "Jo's world - Jo says no.
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journeymom - Jan 12, 2007 11:42 am (#1421 of 1858)
Me too, Honour. When they first meet Luna, she laughs hysterically and just a little bit too long at Ron's joke. I immediately thought that was a hint that she liked him. Again, maybe Luna will never pair up with anybody in DHs. She'll only be, what, 17 years old? She's got time.
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Laura W - Jan 13, 2007 3:18 am (#1422 of 1858)
(stupid nit-pick alert) Harry will be 17. Luna is in Ginny's year: she will be 16.
----------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, I never saw a Luna-Neville pairing. I agree that she and her weird ways would scare him.
And, yes, on more than one occasion Luna shows a distinct attraction for Ron Weasley. Laughing long and hard at his jokes on the train and saying that she wouldn't have minded going with him to the Yule Ball the previous year - because she doesn't much care for dancing anyway - in OoP: plus a couple of comments she makes in HBP (one to Harry about Ron saying very funny things, giving Ron a present of a Gurdyroot). Although he has gotten used to her - and even kind of likes her - by Book Six, there is obviously *no more than that* on Ron's part. But I strongly suspect Luna feels differently. Of course, being Luna Lovegood, she takes whatever comes or does not come in a very zen-like way.
(I'm really, really routing for her to find a decent, kind young hippie-wizard who will share her beliefs and values, and will love her and their children forever. (wistful sigh) After Voldemort is removed from the scene, of course!)
Laura
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journeymom - Jan 13, 2007 12:18 pm (#1423 of 1858)
Yup, that's why I said Luna Will Be 17. I was, rather too obliquely, referring to the upcoming Deathly Hallows. That's the last opportunity for JKR to pair Luna up with anybody. But she doesn't have to pair her up with anybody at all. I didn't have a boyfriend in twelfth grade and didn't get married until I was 24 y.o. These wizards and witches get married so young!
I wonder if Luna's good love will save Ron in a perilous situation. Neville shows an interest in Ginny (took her to the Yule Ball, among other things) and has protected her a few time.
Hey, I see a pattern! Neville and Harry, the prophecy boys, both like Ginny. Hermione personally dislikes Luna, and are both interested in Ron. I wonder if Hermione picked up on this on some level? Besides the fact that Luna offends Hermione's logical sensibilities.
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haymoni - Jan 14, 2007 9:52 am (#1424 of 1858)
Laura - I see Luna taking over the Quibbler and staying a bit of a loner. It will take a very special wizard to attract our girl.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 14, 2007 10:14 pm (#1425 of 1858)
I really don't understand Ron/Luna. I've tried but I don't. Her laughing at his joke seems to scream "socially inept" to me, and it wasn't something he enjoyed. Watching him like a mildly interesting televison program doesn't sound like love.
Then again, they're neighbors, and he should know her but he doesn't seem to. She doesn't like dancing, but neither does Harry. I think she would have gone to the ball with him the way Ginny went with Neville, just to be in on the action. She hums a tune that at that time would have humiliated him if he'd heard her. Even when he's semi-conscious in OotP, he still calls her Loony. In HBP she thinks he's quite unkind, while he says she's growing on him, but he still thinks she's mad, and Luna doesn't believe Ron when he compliments her commentary. None of this seems romantic at all to me personally, and we have Jo's statement that know we know it's Ron and Hermione.
Incidentally, Luna could turn 17 in DH, depending on when her birthday is. Hermione's going to turn 18 as soon as the book starts. I wish we knew when Luna's birthday is.
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Laura W - Jan 15, 2007 4:49 am (#1426 of 1858)
haymoni, call me a romantic, but I have hope and faith that that " very special wizard" is out there. He may not show up in Book Seven, but my Inner Trelawny sees him in Luna's future. (knowing look)
"and we have Jo's statement that know we know it's Ron and Hermione."
Absolutely, Die! That is a given. As I said, I do not believe Mr. Ronald Weasley is, was or ever will be attracted to Luna. But I - along with Honour and journeymom - still think she likes him a lot. Nonetheless, it's Ron and Hermoine all the way - because that's what Jo wants, and it *is* her world.
Laura
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 15, 2007 11:27 am (#1427 of 1858)
The problem I have with Luna liking Ron a lot is, that when she meets him on the train, he doesn't seem to know her at all and all she seems to know about him is that he's Ginny's brother, and that Padma was dissing him about the Yule Ball. Yet some fans of the pairing that I know insist she was laughing at his jokes and implying she would have gone to the ball with him because she wanted him as a boyfriend. I am not sure if it's a love at first sight mentality at work there, or what, but I can't get into any pairing where the characters think they are in love without getting to know the person in question. And we have no evidence that they know each other, at that point.
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Laura W - Jan 15, 2007 12:22 pm (#1428 of 1858)
I don't think Luna really knows Ron at this point. She has never officially met him. I agree with you there.
But she is a 14-year-old girl. She has been going to the same school as Ronald Weasley for three years. She has undoubtedly seen him in the school on many, many occasions in the last three years; certainly three times a day at mealtimes, in the hallways and at the Quidditch matches. You know how it is. She finds him attractive and starts asking around about him. Or, even if she doesn't ask, news at Hogwarts about everyone and everything seems to spread like wildfire.
So, being kind of shy but definitely interested in (ie - having a crush on) this older boy, Luna is especially attuned to anything she can learn about him from the other students. Gossip and truth alike. Such as the fact that he took Padma Patil to the Yule Ball and she had a terrible time (until she met that Beauxbaton. boy) because her red-headed date wouldn't dance with her. I have no doubt Padma complained endlessly to all the Ravenclaw girls about that.
And then there is the fact that Luna and Ginny are friends. I'm sure Luna's ears picked up every time Ginny talked about her brother. Of course I do not for one moment believe Luna was "in love" with Ron when she first officially met him on the train at the beginning of OoP, or at anytime throughout that or the next year. You don't have to know someone well to think they are attractive and funny and would make a good boyfriend; in other words, to have a crush on them. Especially when you are a teenager.
(hey, this is fun. i usually write about such serious stuff. maybe I should write romance novels. just kidding! hee, hee)
Laura
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 15, 2007 10:17 pm (#1429 of 1858)
But Jo has sunk Ron/Luna, like she has sunk Neville/Luna and Harry/Cho. Why does she sink certain ships and let other, even what she would certainly consider even more bizarre pairings, go on? How does she choose?
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Thom Matheson - Jan 15, 2007 10:21 pm (#1430 of 1858)
Die, what's that 50s song? "Stupid Cupid, stop picking on me."
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 15, 2007 10:29 pm (#1431 of 1858)
Connie Francis did "Stupid Cupid". It came out on September 26, 1958 and stayed on the charts at #1 for six weeks.
God, I AM old!
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Thom Matheson - Jan 15, 2007 10:32 pm (#1432 of 1858)
Connie Francis? Tell me you had to look that up and not just from memory?
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Honour - Jan 16, 2007 5:42 am (#1433 of 1858)
Actually Die I agree with you about Luna/Ron. I too didn't think that it was mutual love at first sight, but I do think that Luna had on previous occassions 'noticed' Ron. She also 'reads' Ron quite accurately, and IMHO sees past his somewhat rude (too harsh a word?), maybe Ron's unsubtleness.
Once again IMHO, if sticking with JKR's "formula" i.e. Harry falling for Ginny because she looks like his mum, is brave like Lily etc. etc. and because JKR deems it so, then to me, it is Luna who reminds me more of Molly than Hermione does. I have always had the impression that JKR had decided that Ginny would be paired with Harry and that she tied up the loose ends of Hermione and Ron by pairing them off, but then as I have said this is only my humble opinion, and after all it is Jo's opinion who matters most
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journeymom - Jan 16, 2007 10:56 am (#1434 of 1858)
"But Jo has sunk Ron/Luna, like she has sunk Neville/Luna and Harry/Cho. Why does she sink certain ships and let other, even what she would certainly consider even more bizarre pairings, go on? How does she choose? " -Die Zim
Yes, JKR shot down the above mentioned 'ships. She doesn't intend those people to pair up with those other people. But in real life people have crushes on people that are not available. I think Neville didn't stop liking Ginny just because Ginny got together with Harry. And IF Luna liked Ron, I don't think she stopped liking him when he got together with Hermione (or Lavendar, for that matter).
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 16, 2007 11:14 am (#1435 of 1858)
In HBP Luna refers to Ron and says he says funny things at times, "But he can be a bit unkind. I noticed that last year."
If she ever did like him, it sounds like the bloom is starting to fade off the rose there.
I agree that Neville didn't stop liking Ginny. If he had he wouldn't have gotten involved with the Inquisitorial squad to try to help her. I expect him to come up again in relation to her in some way in the last book. If Jo has script approval, like she said she did (we were just discussing this in the OotP film thread, if you need the exact quote) I can't see why Ginny stayed out all night with Neville in GoF. Very mysterious. I hope Jo's not letting them condense Michael and Dean into Neville. Neville is too well liked to be used in that way. It would make them leaving out the Marauders look like a non-issue by comparison.
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Eponine - Jan 16, 2007 3:43 pm (#1436 of 1858)
If he had, he wouldn't have gotten involved with the Inquisitorial squad to try to help her.
I honestly do not understand this line of reasoning. Neville wouldn't have helped Ginny if he wasn't romantically interested in her? He would have left her there if he didn't like her that way?
Neville is not so petty that he would leave a friend at the mercies of the Inquisitorial Squad if he wasn't romantically interested in them.
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journeymom - Jan 16, 2007 5:32 pm (#1437 of 1858)
No, I don't think he would not have helped. But I vaguely remember Neville said or did something that was Ginny-oriented. I'll see if I can find it.
=======================
OP US p. 742 "Got 'em all, " said Warrington, shoving Ron roughly forward into the room. "That one, " he poked a thick finger a t Neville, "tried to stop me taking her," he pointed at Ginny, who was trying to kick the shins of the large Slytherin girl holding her, "so I brought him along too."
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Eponine - Jan 16, 2007 5:42 pm (#1438 of 1858)
Oh, I'm not debating that Neville helped Ginny, and that's what got him involved.
That one,' he poked a thick finger at Neville, 'tried to stop me taking her,' he pointed at Ginny, who was trying to kick the shins of the large Slytherin girl holding her, 'so I brought him along too.' - OotP
But I fail to see how that can be used as evidence that he has a crush on her. Personally, if I was taking bets on who Neville was crushing on, I'd pick Hermione. After all, she was his first choice to the Yule Ball, not Ginny.
ETA: posted while you were finding the quote!
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journeymom - Jan 16, 2007 5:54 pm (#1439 of 1858)
Good point. I just finished re-reading OP and your comment, Eponine, reminded something that I do not understand.
P.794 Harry tells Neville, "I'll bet you can get Hermione up the corridor and into the lift.... Then you could find someone.... Raise the alarm..."
"And whad are you going do do?" said Neville, mopping his bleeding nose with his sleeve and frowning at Harry.
"I've got to find the others, " said Harry.
"Well, I'b going do find dem wid you," said Neville firmly.
"But Hermione- "
"We'll dake her wid us," said Neville firmly. "I'll carry her- You're bedder at fighding dem dan I ab-"
He stood up and seized one of Hermione's arms, glared at Harry, who hesitated, then grabbed the other and helped hoist Hermione's limp form over Neville's shoulders.
Does Neville glare at Harry because Harry seemingly didn't want to cooperate? Why does Harry hesitate? Maybe he just doesn't want to bring along injured Neville and Hermione sack-of-potatoes because it would slow him down?
Can we contrast this with Lucius, who ordered the DE's to leave Nott Sr behind?
Perhaps I should take this to the "Odd Things" thread.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 17, 2007 10:30 am (#1440 of 1858)
Neville's more the type to try to reason with someone, or to go get help from someone, than to take decisive action on his own. He's not a leader. He's a loyal follower. I'm not saying he's in love with Ginny or has a deep crush on her. But it seems like he feels a special affection for her, that makes him more assertive than he usually is. He didn't know where they were taking Ginny or why. It didn't have to be that big of an emergency to him that he had to stand up to those other students at that minute. They weren't Death Eaters...just other students.
He could have followed to see what was up, or any number of other things. He still likes her, which is hardly a bad thing.
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Steve Newton - Jan 17, 2007 11:08 am (#1441 of 1858)
Librarian
I have to disagree. Neville has been the embodiment of decisive action. He has charged Crabbe, Goyle, and Malfoy. He asked for a date to the Yule Ball immediately, he charged into a room of DEs to be with Harry. When Harry has his vision of Mr. Weasley and the snake Neville goes for help. I think this is decisive because he figured out immediately that this was something that the kids could not handle. I can't think of anyone who has taken more decisive action in the series.
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Eponine - Jan 17, 2007 12:33 pm (#1442 of 1858)
I'm going to have to agree with Steve here. We have more than enough evidence of Neville taking action when confronted with something, especially when his friends are involved. Not only that, we have Neville standing up to his friends (in PS/SS) when he thought they were doing something wrong.
If he can stand up to his friends at age 11 over a little matter like house points, I think he's more than capable of standing up to some bullies at age 15 when they're dragging one of his friends off. (I doubt Ginny went willingly with the IS.)
I still see no evidence in the books that implies that Neville has any more feelings for Ginny than that of friendship. Yes, they went to the ball together, but she was his second choice as was he for her. Yes, he tried to save her from the IS, but that's hardly proof of his feelings as he likely would have done the same for Harry, Ron or Hermione.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 18, 2007 12:13 pm (#1443 of 1858)
If someone wants to interpret actions by Neville as possible foreshadowing for N/G, I'm just saying that I understand where they are coming from. I'm not sure if Jo will go that way, but I wouldn't be surprised if she did. Actually, I think it could be done well, and I'd be pleased if it was.
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Eponine - Jan 18, 2007 7:00 pm (#1444 of 1858)
Out of curiosity, if you dislike Ginny so much, why would you wish her on Neville? I mean, your posts seem to indicate that you think very little of her, and it seems extremely incongruous to me to pair someone who you clearly can't stand up with someone you seem to like.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 19, 2007 4:48 pm (#1445 of 1858)
I can't stand her with Harry. They bring out the worst in each other as I see it. When they were together, they acted like jerks to a lot of people. Ginny and Neville seem at their best with each other. I see potential for them making each other better people. They build up each others strengths and cancel out each other's weaknesses. Ginny and Harry have some of the same strengths and weaknesses. There's no support there, and no way for them to think outside of their own little box. I am not completely without hope that anyone in this series can, through their experiences, become a better person, with the possible exception of Voldemort.
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Eponine - Jan 19, 2007 7:01 pm (#1446 of 1858)
I don't know. From what you've said in the past, a lot of the things you dislike about Ginny didn't occur while she was in a relationship with Harry (i.e. stealing the diary back, crashing into/hexing Zacharias, yelling at Ron about Dean, wanting to go along to the Ministry, refusing Luna's help at the Ministry). So if you disliked her so much while she wasn't in a relationship with Harry, why would you think she'd be any better with Neville?
And quite frankly, I have absolutely no recollection of any example in the books of Ginny and Neville being at their best with each other. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain the two of them have had very little canon interaction, let alone enough to indicate that they would bring out the best in each other.
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Thom Matheson - Jan 19, 2007 8:35 pm (#1447 of 1858)
Die, the one thing that I noticed only in book six is that Ginny seems able to calm Harry down. When no one eles can get through to Harry she seems able to. Must be the smell of her hair.
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Liz Mann - Jan 20, 2007 7:14 am (#1448 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Harry and Ginny perhaps can be a little mean together, but they can be just as mean apart too, and they're only fifteen and sixteen, they have plenty of time to grow out of it.
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Steve Newton - Jan 20, 2007 7:19 am (#1449 of 1858)
Librarian
Thom, Ginny does a pretty good job of calming Harry in OOTP, too. At Grimmaud Place when Harry is having thoughts of running.
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Elanor - Jan 20, 2007 7:54 am (#1450 of 1858)
Luna does has this effect on Harry too in OotP. In fact, she is the only one able to "reach" him when Harry is "prisoner" of his anger and grief after Sirius's death. I do think this passage of the series is very important.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 20, 2007 8:03 am (#1451 of 1858)
I disagee with that. Phineas tells him not to run, saying those are Dumbledore's orders. Harry never discusses with Ginny his feeling that he needs to get away. Then Hermione shows up. Ginny tells him he should remember she was possessed, too and he says he forgot. Then Hermione reminds him he could not have been apparated away from Hogwarts, and Ron confirms this, saying Harry was in his bed the whole time. Ginny's part in this no greater than anyone else's and she definitely didn't have anything to do with Hary decididng not to run away.
I see that as bad for H/G, because it was a great time for Harry and Ginny to actually discuss ora t least arrange to discuss when tehy were alone, their shared experinces with Voldemort, and they don't.
As for her not being in a relationship with Harry when she did many of her hot tempered, rude things, she had never given up on him by her own admission, and was trying to do things to make him notice her.
If she had NOT said she never gave up on Harry, and they had really gotten to know each other in the text as friends first, I'd have no problem with her. That's what ruins her for me. Everything she does while she is hoping, as she tells him, that "you might take a bit more notice" is suspect to me.
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rambkowalczyk - Jan 20, 2007 8:16 am (#1452 of 1858)
If she had NOT said she never gave up on Harry, and they had really gotten to know each other in the text as friends first, I'd have no problem with her. That's what ruins her for me. Everything she does while she is hoping, as she tells him, that "you might take a bit more notice" is suspect to me. Die Zim
Interesting idea. Was Ginny's obnoxious behavior (in your opinion)because she was trying to get Harry to notice her? Was she less obnoxious after Harry started dated her?
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Eponine - Jan 20, 2007 8:39 am (#1453 of 1858)
You know, I understand that you don't like Ginny or H/G, and that's your prerogative. No one here is insisting that you must love her or even find her tolerable, but I still do not understand how you could pair her up with Neville.
There is nothing in canon to indicate that he would temper her behavior or she would bring out the best in him. And I'm not even sure what that would be, as Neville has been a strong character since PS/SS. There is nothing in canon to indicate that either of them have feelings for each other beyond friendship.
It just seems unlikely to me that dating Neville would turn Ginny into a character you'd like. Unless the only reason you want her with Neville is so she won't be with Harry.
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juliebug - Jan 20, 2007 9:05 am (#1454 of 1858)
I, of course, can't speak for Die, but was a big fan of a Neville/Ginny pairing and think we may be on a similar page, on this topic.
Ginny always used the power of her popularity for good where Neville was concerned. She never feared what being in his company would do to her own reputation. She never allowed anyone, even Neville himself, to talk badly about him. Talking about Neville always brought to light the best part of Ginny's personality.
Neville seems to be a bit bolder when Ginny is around. While there are plenty of brave things Neville does without Ginny's presense, he still does seem to consistantly rise up to meet challenges when Ginny is near him. I always thought that if the two of them became an item, that Neville would get a bit more "street cred" with the other students, something he truly deserves anyway, but might not get without some help.
I do not hate Ginny. I like her. My biggest fear of a Harry/Ginny pairing was that it would demean her character. I have always felt that was a strong enough character that she didn't need to be Harry's girl just to gain importance in the stories. I've come to accept that this is the way that JKR always intended for that story line to go, but I still think that Neville and Ginny could have been great for each other.
p.s. As I said at the beginning, this are my thoughts. If Die does not agree with me and feels I have misspoken, she (or anyone else who thinks I spoke out of turn) may feel free to call me a barmy old codger.
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Eponine - Jan 20, 2007 9:41 am (#1455 of 1858)
With the exception of the first time we see Luna in OotP, and Ginny calls her 'Loony', she does the same thing for Luna. Ginny is the one who insists they sit with her on the train, and we have Luna herself tell us that Ginny stopped some boys from calling her Loony and saying that Ginny is very nice to her. Her behavior towards Neville is nothing she didn't do for Luna either. (And correct me if I'm wrong, but I can only recall the one time on the train when she wouldn't let Neville talk badly about himself. Is there another time in the books when she stood up for him?)
juliebug, I have nothing against the N/G pairing. Personally, I don't think it has any basis in canon, but if people want to ship it, that's their business. What I don't understand is people who clearly can't stand the girl, but they'll happily ship her with Neville. It just isn't consistent to me. If you (general you) dislike her character so much, why in the world would you want to put her with a character you do like? It's just very very strange to me. To me, it comes across as a way to get her away from Harry and little more.
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Thom Matheson - Jan 20, 2007 10:54 am (#1456 of 1858)
Juliebug, thanks for letting me call you a barmy old codger, and if and when the need arises I shall do so with the utmost respect and of course timing. But, now is not that time.(slinks away lirking in the threads for the right opportunity).
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journeymom - Jan 20, 2007 3:32 pm (#1457 of 1858)
Eponine, great point.
Juliebug said, "I have always felt that was a strong enough character that she didn't need to be Harry's girl just to gain importance in the stories. I've come to accept that this is the way that JKR always intended for that story line to go, but I still think that Neville and Ginny could have been great for each other. "
You are so right, Ginny is a strong character. That's why JKR created her, to be equal to Harry. We have to bear in mind, JKR's main character is Harry, and she created Ginny FOR Harry. Stating it so explicitly like that sounds almost -sexist? disrespectful to Ginny? Sorry, I'm not sure how to word what I'm thinking. But Ginny is not the main character.
I hope you all are mind-readers and can figure out that I mean no disrespect to Ginny. I'm one of Ginny's fans.
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Liz Mann - Jan 20, 2007 5:06 pm (#1458 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
If she had NOT said she never gave up on Harry, and they had really gotten to know each other in the text as friends first, I'd have no problem with her. That's what ruins her for me. Everything she does while she is hoping, as she tells him, that "you might take a bit more notice" is suspect to me.
I don't see what's wrong with Ginny hoping Harry might take a bit more notice of her if she was more herself around him. That does not mean that every mean thing she did was trying to get Harry to notice her, or even that she was actively trying to impress him, just that she tried to relax around him.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 20, 2007 6:47 pm (#1459 of 1858)
Ginny is nowhere near equal to Harry, and I still can't figure out why Jo said that, even though she added the "pretty much" part to it and mentioned that she was just hoping the readers saw Ginny that way. For Harry is canonically equal to Voldemort, and Ginny has nowhere near that much potential as I see it. Being able to make flying snot appear isn't that great an achievement to put her in that category.
I'd like Ginny with anyone that doesn't leave her to be the prize that Harry the conquering hero gets for winning. That IS demeaning, and if she has no other point than to be a love interest for the hero, that's all she is...the Weasley that Harry can snog.
Neville is just an example, because he seems to be so nice that he could tone down her temper and make her a happy person. But I'd take Neville, or a redeemed Draco, or darned near anyone to prevent that from happening.
Besides, Jo hasn't even confirmed for certain, beyond a doubt, that Harry even survives. If he dies, which I think is quite possible, do you think 16 year old Ginny is going to or even should mourn Harry for the rest of her life? I say no way! That's demeaning, too. It gives her the appearance of having no value outside of Harry.
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journeymom - Jan 21, 2007 12:55 am (#1460 of 1858)
Since you bring up Ginny's magical abilities, Harry is most definitly NOT Voldemort's equal. Because of the prophecy he is Voldemort's opponent.
Stating that Ginny is Harry's 'prize' is very demeaning, not only to Ginny but also Harry. But being the Weasley that Harry snogs isn't unreasonable. Ron is Harry's best friend. Harry likes all the Weasleys generally, even Percy until he turned into a right git. Ginny is a Weasley.
Draco? Only in fan fiction. Why does Ginny's temper need toning down? Neville could never satisfy Ginny. Who ever implied that Ginny would mourn Harry for the rest of her life? Who knows, maybe Ginny will die. I do think Harry would mourn her for the rest of his life, but he wouldn't stop living.
ALL the characters in this story have a part to play, Ginny is simply one of them. Die Zim, perhaps your arguement is with JKR because you are not satisfied with the way she portrays Harry's partner. Without referring to Ginny and her shortcomings, what would your ideal partner for Harry be like?
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peachespig - Jan 21, 2007 1:29 am (#1461 of 1858)
Hi all, I'm new on the Lexicon forum, but I immediately thought I'd check out the ships thread.
journeymom said:
You are so right, Ginny is a strong character. That's why JKR created her, to be equal to Harry. We have to bear in mind, JKR's main character is Harry, and she created Ginny FOR Harry. Stating it so explicitly like that sounds almost -sexist? disrespectful to Ginny?
I agree, and I don't think you should worry about it being disrespectful to her; all the characters are in some sense created to have a certain relationship to Harry, be it friend or foil or mentor or love interest. We can go back and forth between thinking of them as people, and thinking of them as having roles in the plot; from the first point of view Ginny may be an independent person, but from the second point of view she's a character with a role to play, and every character orbits around Harry.
Die Zimtzicke said:
Ginny is nowhere near equal to Harry, and I still can't figure out why Jo said that, even though she added the "pretty much" part to it and mentioned that she was just hoping the readers saw Ginny that way. For Harry is canonically equal to Voldemort, and Ginny has nowhere near that much potential as I see it.
I think you may be confusing "equal" in the sense of power or in the sense of importance to the plot with "equal" in the sense of character maturity. When JKR said Harry and Ginny were total equals, she was talking about the emotional journey they had both gone through, having to do with the development of their characters -- how they had both grown up to the point that they were worthy of each other, meaning they were ready and able to be in a mutually positive, healthy relationship. Voldemort may be a powerful wizard who's important to the story, but as far as his character goes, he's far from being the equal of either Harry or Ginny.
I'd like Ginny with anyone that doesn't leave her to be the prize that Harry the conquering hero gets for winning. That IS demeaning, and if she has no other point than to be a love interest for the hero, that's all she is...the Weasley that Harry can snog.
I guess I don't really see why that's "all" she is. Ron is Harry's friend and sidekick, does that demean him because that's all he is? Ginny and Ron both have roles, sure, but I think JKR also did a nice job fleshing them out as people we can identify with beyond just their role in the plot. What is it about Ginny that "demeans" her if she's the love interest, that wouldn't demean any other girl?
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xray - Jan 21, 2007 1:55 am (#1462 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
I see that as bad for H/G, because it was a great time for Harry and Ginny to actually discuss ora t least arrange to discuss when tehy were alone, their shared experinces with Voldemort, and they don't.
Not really. We are expecting this to come to pass and this may have been a good opportunity according to us, the readers. However, the author has decided to eiter wait or do it differently. I believe she's waiting to a more appropriate time... when Harry needs to know crucial information that only Ginny, albeit unknowningly, has.
Everything she does while she is hoping, as she tells him, that "you might take a bit more notice" is suspect to me.
Actually I must disagree here. Let's look at the text: Page 647, HBP She looked away from him, over the lake. "I never really gave up on you," she said. "Not really. I always hoped . . . Hermione told me to get on with life, maybe go out with some other people, relax a bit around you, because I never used to be able to talk if you were in the room, remember? And she thought you might take a bit more notice if I was a bit more—myself."
(I think it's so cute too.) I can't understand how you can hate Ginny because of this paragraph.
Ginny is nowhere near equal to Harry, and I still can't figure out why Jo said that, even though she added the "pretty much" part to it and mentioned that she was just hoping the readers saw Ginny that way. For Harry is canonically equal to Voldemort, and Ginny has nowhere near that much potential as I see it. Being able to make flying snot appear isn't that great an achievement to put her in that category.
Hrm, I don't know. JKR has led us to believe that Ginny is an extremely powerful witch and her primary example is the Bat Bogey Hex. Fred and George are certainly wary of it and Slughorn was quite impressed and expects great things from Ginny given simply his witness of her casting it on a single occasion. Who are we to decide that the spell is simple or not complex enough to exemplify Ginny's remarkable power? We might not think it's enough, but I Jo believes it is.
I'd like Ginny with anyone that doesn't leave her to be the prize that Harry the conquering hero gets for winning.
Hrm, I am a little surprised that anyone would think this is Jo's purpose for Ginny. I certainly don't see her as simply Harry's prize. Her character has been built up slowly and steadily throughout the series to where I believe she's going to be an integral part in helping Harry defeat Voldemort.
Without referring to Ginny and her shortcomings, what would your ideal partner for Harry be like?
Yes, I'm very curious myself.
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Rosie Lu - Jan 21, 2007 3:00 am (#1463 of 1858)
Neville is just an example, because he seems to be so nice that he could tone down her temper and make her a happy person.
I absolutely love Neville, he's my favorite character after Harry, but I don't understand why Neville would need to tone Ginny down. She's fine the way she is, and she's perfectly happy with Harry, as Harry is with her.
If he dies, which I think is quite possible, do you think 16 year old Ginny is going to or even should mourn Harry for the rest of her life?
It is possible Harry will die, yes, although I'm one of the ones who believes he won't. But, I do take Ginny's statement about "never giving up" on Harry to mean that since she hasn't given up on him all this time, she certainly won't give up on him in DH, no matter what happens. I'll admit that statement of Ginny's does convince me more that Harry'll survive and finally get a chance at a normal life.
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Eponine - Jan 21, 2007 8:40 am (#1464 of 1858)
There is more than one way to measure equality. Do you mean Voldemort is Harry's equal in power? (I would have to say Harry is nowhere near as powerful as LV) Is he is equal in importance to the story? Are they equals in their singing ability?
And Jo did not actually say 'pretty much' about the equals thing, it was about the ideal girl thing. This is what she had to say about the equals:
Harry has really grown. And I feel that Ginny and Harry, in this book, they are total equals. They are worthy of each other. They've both gone through a big emotional journey, and they've really got over a lot of delusions, to use your word, together.
She's talking about how they are equal emotionally. Not physically, not in terms of magical power or intellectually, but emotionally. And that's what's important.
As for Ginny being his reward, well, what's to say that any love interest won't be his reward? I doubt that Ginny is going to sit patiently at home weaving and unraveling until he returns to claim her. For a love interest to truly be nothing but a reward, she really has to be rather passive about it.
Besides, it's not really about a reward. It's about the characters getting a bit of happiness at the end of the journey. I'm not sure what's so bad about the survivors being happy.
I do find it interesting that you admit that you don't care who she's with, as long as it isn't Harry.
And as for Harry dying, well, if he does, my money's on Ginny dying too. However, if only she survives, then no, I don't expect her to mourn him forever, but I also wouldn't expect Jo to marry her off in the epilogue to someone just because she needs to be paired off with someone. It wouldn't make sense from a literary point of view to do that.
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Steve Newton - Jan 21, 2007 8:51 am (#1465 of 1858)
Librarian
Just as an aside, I think that when it comes to pure magical power Harry is more powerful that Voldemort. In the GOF he forced the light into Voldemort's wand. Voldemort is much more experienced and knowledgeable.
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Liz Mann - Jan 21, 2007 9:33 am (#1466 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
In that scene in the graveyard, I kind of got the feeling that Harry being able to force the bead of light back into Voldemort's wand had nothing to do with magical strength but the strength of his determination and his extraordinary ability to push his physical strength to the maximum. Harry has shown this latter ability many times, like when he held onto Quirrell's face, when he went for the snitch even after the bludger had broken his arm, etc.
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Steve Newton - Jan 21, 2007 9:46 am (#1467 of 1858)
Librarian
I'm not sure that I see the difference.
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haymoni - Jan 21, 2007 10:31 am (#1468 of 1858)
I just thought Harry figured out the beads of light before Voldy did. Something just told him he had to keep those beads going towards Voldy.
Harry doesn't seem to be surprised by magic. I mean, he is ALWAYS surprised by magic, but since he hasn't been around it much, when something bizarre happens, he really doesn't know the difference and really doesn't care.
Voldy on the other hand, sent his little AK at Harry, hoping to prove to his supporters that he was truly "The Greatest" and had things in hand.
But nooooooooooooo! Stuff went wrong again and that blasted kid got away.
I don't necessarily think that Harry was better than Voldy. He just wasn't overconfidant, which seems to be Voldy's downfall.
Hang on! This is the 'Shipping Thread.
What am I talking about again?
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Eponine - Jan 21, 2007 10:45 am (#1469 of 1858)
This is off topic for the thread, but I don't know about the measurement of magical power. Harry obviously has more love than Voldemort which will probably translate into LV's downfall, and during the scene in the graveyard, Harry had a much stronger motivation than Voldemort to move the beads of light. Harry was fighting for his life.
Voldemort definitely has more magical knowledge than Harry, though.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 21, 2007 3:23 pm (#1470 of 1858)
I still think Harry might have to die as he is so intwined with Voldemort, or I can see him being a lone hero. The problems in the wizarding world aren't going to go away the second Voldemort dies. They're still going to be there, and I can see Harry devoting himself to solving them. He said being with Ginny was like living someone else's life. Maybe he's starting to realize it is not his life and can never be. Since I don't like it in general, shipping gets WAY too much attention on too many boards to suit me.
If I had to put him with a girl, which would absolutely be my last choice, I'd want him to be with a girl that we have found out quite a bit about, her hopes, her dreams, and her aspirations, that he could have a real connection with, to discuss his past and his destiny, but no one like that has come along, especially not Ginny.
Before HBP the people I knew who liked H/G used to tell me to be patient, that Ginny was going to get over her crush on Harry, that we were going to see them making friends, talking together about all of the seious things as well as the simple, and becoming close, doing all sorts of things together, and connecting. They told me that Harry was going to really get to know her as a person, and she him, and it was not going to be a typical teenaged snogging relationship. The relationship that came out of that interaction was going to make them better, kinder, more giving people.
Well, I WAS patient, but I don't feel I got any of that. I didn't see the scenes I expected, that showed WHY they were perfect for each other. I saw Harry getting a chest monster, and having dreams he didn't want Ron to see, and dreaming of her sobbing over his body professing attraction. Not affection, just attraction. Even some of the fans I used to talk to that liked H/G have admitted they didn't get what they wanted to see. Can EVERY one here honestly say they think it was done perfectly?
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xray - Jan 21, 2007 3:58 pm (#1471 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Can EVERY one here honestly say they think it was done perfectly?
No, not perfectly. That would be more appropriate in a romance story. The "romance" aspect is a side story. Jo did it in a way she wanted and I'm happy with that. It's not crucial to the story of Harry Potter no matter how much we might want it to be. Personally, I was pleased with how it turned out.
Besides, no matter how "perfectly" she might write it, there are tons of others who'd say differently.
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Liz Mann - Jan 21, 2007 7:22 pm (#1472 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
'Perfect' is a matter of opinion. Some people might say it happened perfectly and others might not.
...Ginny was going to get over her crush on Harry, that we were going to see them making friends, talking together about all of the seious things as well as the simple, and becoming close, doing all sorts of things together, and connecting. They told me that Harry was going to really get to know her as a person, and she him, and it was not going to be a typical teenaged snogging relationship. The relationship that came out of that interaction was going to make them better, kinder, more giving people.
Ginny did get over her crush to a certain extent even if she didn't get over it completely. They did make friends. They did have moments together even if they didn't start hanging out just the two of them much. Harry's best friends are Ron and Hermione after all, and it's more important to the story's plot for him to spend time with them. Harry did get to know her better when she started talking around him. As for the relationship making them better, kinder, more giving people, that may be so if this story were a romance, but it's not. If Harry and Ginny do become those things then it'll more likely be because of their other experiences, not because of the relationship. As xray said the romance is a side story.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 21, 2007 10:34 pm (#1473 of 1858)
Whenever there was a chance for Jo to really show Ginny and Hary doing something together, Jo blew past it. We didn't get many conversations and scenes of them. We just got told they were hanging out at the Burrow, or that she was the heart of the team.
Forgive us fans who like to be shown things instead of told...
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xray - Jan 21, 2007 10:48 pm (#1474 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Whenever there was a chance for Jo to really show Ginny and Hary doing something together, Jo blew past it. We didn't get many conversations and scenes of them. We just got told they were hanging out at the Burrow, or that she was the heart of the team.
It's not a romance novel.
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Eponine - Jan 21, 2007 11:06 pm (#1475 of 1858)
Even though Jo has said that these books are for herself, she's also very aware that these books have a large audience of children. I doubt she wants to put 10 year old boys through long, heartfelt conversations about the characters' hopes and dreams. The way she handled the romance in HBP was appropriate for all ages and types of fans. Certainly, it might not have been as thorough as some fans would have liked, but it was suitable for all the people who read the books.
And quite frankly, long, drawn-out descriptions of the time spent at the Burrow and Quidditch practices have never been a part of the books. She's always glossed over a lot of things that happen, and for her to insert them in this book would have been awkward and alien to the style of the books.
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Rosie Lu - Jan 22, 2007 2:54 am (#1476 of 1858)
I have to agree with xray here in that these books are not romance novels. There was already way more romance stuff in HBP than previous books. I thought it was handled well as a fun little side story, but anything more and I would've started wondering if I was still reading Harry Potter.
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peachespig - Jan 22, 2007 7:23 pm (#1477 of 1858)
I agree with the previous couple comments. I think romance in Harry Potter is like dessert -- something light and tasty that sets off the rest of the meal. Sure, left to my devices I might have five helpings and skip the other courses, but like a good chef JKR knows how much is too much for the meal she's giving us.
I do wish there was more Harry and Ginny interaction, but then, I wish there was more of a lot of things. I think she found a great balance with HBP for what makes a great book -- a lot better than OotP -- but that means she just couldn't give us as much as we might want of everything.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 22, 2007 7:36 pm (#1478 of 1858)
I wondered if I was still reading Harry Potter because there were so few little light, cheerful romantic touches and so much teen hormone-induced angst.
The twins accusing Ginny of having five boys on the string was not romantic in my opinion. Neither was Ron practically calling her a slut and Harry wanting to agree, or her slurping with Dean in the hallway to begin with. Harry having a chest monster was not romantic, or him having dirty dreams about Ginny, or picturing her sobbing over him confessing attraction. Ron's using Lavender to gain sexual experience was not romantic, nor was Harry kissing Ginny in front of fifty people then looking around for everyone's reactions to the show. Hermione using McClaggan to make Ron jealous wasn't romantic. It was pathetic.
This was not a fun, little side story as I saw it, nor a romance novel. It was Jo trying to make teenagers look totally hormone driven and succeeding.
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peachespig - Jan 22, 2007 8:09 pm (#1479 of 1858)
Well, DZ, I'm sorry the romantic subplots didn't work for you. I thought it was fun, which is not to say there weren't painful moments. But I don't think it's the right criterion, looking at each development in those storylines and asking if they're "romantic". Many of the things you mentioned aren't supposed to be "romantic" in the true sense, though they did concern romance.
First off, the H/G and R/Hr storylines were clearly presented in a different way. Harry's crush on Ginny was supposed to be sweet and amusing, and I think it succeeded. All those things you didn't like -- the chest monster, his undescribed naughty dreams about her, the imagined confession of attraction -- made me smile and feel more affection for him. I thought it was all very cute. He was so awkward and nervous about it all, all the way up until the kiss, the poor guy. To me there was a great balance there between keeping it clean for the kiddies, while at the same time conveying with suggestive humor the feelings of a teenager.
The Ron and Hermione storyline, on the other hand, was clearly meant to be funny in a painful kind of way, and there were lots of moments that made me wince. But even though I got frustrated with the characters, I never lost my affection for them; I still understood all too well where they were coming from. Hermione using McLaggen was neither romantic nor pathetic, in my opinion -- it was a bit wicked and a bit painful, and yep, pretty funny. And Ron -- while we know Lavender wasn't his true love or anything, there's no way I would say he was "using" her. Physically demonstrative though they were, they were together for months, she gave him a ridiculous "My Sweetheart" pimp chain -- I'm sure they had some sweet, if temporary, moments together. It was a typical teenaged relationship -- which I don't think is an evil thing.
So I don't see why it can't both be a fun side story (or stories really, since H/G and R/Hr were so different) and accurately lampoon teenage drama. JKR has always had a dark sense of humor when it comes to human frailties, and I don't see why romance should be any different.
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journeymom - Jan 22, 2007 8:21 pm (#1480 of 1858)
Teenagers are angsty and hormone ridden. JKR portrayed this truth in a pretty funny way. Sometimes a person can really miss the point, which is too bad, because what a sad, miserable reading experience that must be.
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Rosie Lu - Jan 22, 2007 10:36 pm (#1481 of 1858)
Teenagers are angsty and hormone ridden. JKR portrayed this truth in a pretty funny way.
Yep, I agree. I found the romance - as I said previously - fun. I think it was funny, sweet and everything peachespig described. I thought it was very realistic. Of course not everyone has to agree, but I think that's all Jo was trying to do with the romance.
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haymoni - Jan 23, 2007 5:10 am (#1482 of 1858)
I don't think teenage love is supposed to be romantic. It is what it is - a bunch of hormones and out-of-control emotions. Watching the characters deal with these emotions has been a riot.
Fleur's devotion to Bill, Tonks fighting for love with Remus, Arthur & Molly having pet names - I thought those parts were romantic.
I don't see any of the kids being at that kind of level yet.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 24, 2007 10:01 am (#1483 of 1858)
Thank you, Kaymoni. You got my point. I don't see them being at that kind of level yet, either. I don't think any of them are truly in love, or truly know wht they want at this point. Teenaged love is sometimes real, I concede, but not usually, and a lot of fans I know take shipping way too seriously. I can't. It's just not at a serious level to me yet.
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Eponine - Jan 24, 2007 11:35 am (#1484 of 1858)
I agree that a lot of people take shipping way too seriously. I mean, there are message boards out there that are devoted solely to discussing and dissecting a certain ship. I just can't imagine spending that much time talking about the relationships between a couple of fictional characters.
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peachespig - Jan 24, 2007 1:27 pm (#1485 of 1858)
haymoni said, Fleur's devotion to Bill, Tonks fighting for love with Remus, Arthur & Molly having pet names - I thought those parts were romantic.
Yes, I agree -- especially Bill and Fleur. I think JKR thought rightly that writing either R/Hr or H/G as either cloyingly sweet or melodramatic would have had the wrong tone at this point in their lives and their relationships.
The thing is, I think a lot of readers are focusing not just on the current state of the relationship, but where the text is telling us it's headed. Ron and Hermione spend a lot of HBP fighting, but we readers know the way it was done means they'll be together before the end of the series. Because of that, the fighting -- despite it being painful -- can seem sweeter than it would otherwise be because we know where it's going.
Then there's also the fact that Harry reacts in the exact same way to Hermione asking Ron to the Slug Club party as he did to Arthur and Molly's pet names. R/Hr haven't reached the longtime-couple, romantic stage that Arthur and Molly have, but I'd say the text is telling us pretty clearly that those couples are at different stages on the same trajectory.
DZ said, a lot of fans I know take shipping way too seriously. I can't. It's just not at a serious level to me yet.
I guess I take it seriously in the amount of thought I've given it, though mostly I find it fun rather than traumatic. I'm glad you've spared yourself from spending a lot of time thinking about Harry's love life!
I do think that H/G will almost certainly have a true "romantic" moment or two (in the sense you mean) before DH is over, and I wouldn't be surprised if R/Hr do as well. In fact, I would say the break-up scene from HBP already has that flavor of real romance, with each sacrificing something for the other.
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Gatorgrad1991 - Jan 29, 2007 6:08 am (#1486 of 1858)
Eponine said: I mean, there are message boards out there that are devoted solely to discussing and dissecting a certain ship.
And sites/forums/communities that are dedicated to talking exclusively about why other ships are gross. I can more easily understand people devoting so much time and energy to discussing something they like, but something you HATE?! It makes absolutely no sense to me.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 29, 2007 12:00 pm (#1487 of 1858)
People who have strong feelings on any subject like to spend time discussing them with others who feel the same way, I guess.
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Gatorgrad1991 - Jan 29, 2007 12:20 pm (#1488 of 1858)
Yeah, I see your point. I'm just always more about the things I like and enjoy than things that I dislike or find disgusting/repulsive. Not just in HP discussions, either.
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Honour - Jan 30, 2007 4:02 pm (#1489 of 1858)
Wow! what a discussion! I too am in the camp inwhich the Harry/Ginny pairing makes no sense whatsoever. I could never quite get over the whole obvious way inwhich JKR wrote Ginny 'especially' for Harry, and yes, I agree with some who say that JKR has fashioned Ginny into a palate, to serve to Harry as a prize for getting rid of Voldermort. And yes this is demeaning for Ginny and Harry. I myself, can't get over the fact that Ginny has similar looks to Lily! eorwer! I also agree that Ginny is not Harry's equal (even emotionally), just as Ron is not Hermione's equal (but that's an entirely other discussion).
Despite some saying that there was not enough interaction between Neville and Ginny to even suggest a relationship, she accompanyied (sp) Neville to the Yule Ball and Neville had a good time. Was Ginny using Neville just to go to the Ball and maybe make Harry jealous? Has Ginny used all of the guys she went out with, with the view inmind to make Harry jealous? Sounds like a nasty little girl and from my end a manipulative one too!
There you go Die, the heat's off you for awhile while the Ginny fans retrain their cannon's on me!
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Rosie Lu - Jan 30, 2007 4:09 pm (#1490 of 1858)
I also agree that Ginny is not Harry's equal (even emotionally), just as Ron is not Hermione's equal (but that's an entirely other discussion).
That's fine if you don't think so, but the author does and this is her story. She said Harry and Ginny are equals in terms of the emotional journeys they've gone on, and I take her word for it.
she accompanyied (sp) Neville to the Yule Ball and Neville had a good time. Was Ginny using Neville just to go to the Ball and maybe make Harry jealous?
There is nowhere in canon that said Neville had a good time. In the books, it says Neville trod on her feet and she met Michael Corner at the ball and later went onto date him.
Ginny has also never once used a guy to make Harry jealous. Do you see her flaunting her relationships in Harry's face? I don't. However, for an example of someone using someone to make another jealous, look at Hermione and Ron. She went to the Slug Club Christmas party for the sole purpose of using someone to make Ron jealous, and you know what? I don't hate her for it. She's a teenager.
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peachespig - Jan 30, 2007 8:14 pm (#1491 of 1858)
Honour said: Was Ginny using Neville just to go to the Ball and maybe make Harry jealous?
I don't think that makes any sense. Ginny was presented by Ron with a golden opportunity to go to the Ball with Harry; all she had to do was go back on her promise to Neville. But she stayed true to her word and honored her promise. If she was willing to be mean to Neville for the sake of snaring Harry, there was her chance right there -- but instead she did the decent and kind thing.
Ginny was, let's not forget, Neville's second choice for the Ball. If there were to be anyone Neville had a secret crush on, I would suppose it to be Hermione, who he asked first. Anyway, there's no evidence that the mere fact Ginny said "yes" to him means she was at all manipulative -- in fact I think her refusing to cancel her date with him for Harry demonstrates she was the opposite.
Rosie Lu said, However, for an example of someone using someone to make another jealous, look at Hermione and Ron.
I have to agree. Much as I love Hermione, I think her revenge date with McLaggen was far and away the single lowest thing we've seen any of the kids do in the romantic department. I'm not saying I don't understand her frustration -- because I do -- but that was a petty thing to do.
I do think that we're supposed to contrast Harry and Ginny, who seem to always take the high road in the romantic arena, with Ron and Hermione, who are just slightly more out of control and teenagerish about everything.
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Gatorgrad1991 - Jan 31, 2007 10:27 am (#1492 of 1858)
Honour said: Was Ginny using Neville just to go to the Ball and maybe make Harry jealous? Has Ginny used all of the guys she went out with, with the view inmind to make Harry jealous? Definitely NO to the first question. Ron practically handed her the opportunity to go to the ball with Harry on a silver platter, yet she chose to honor her committment to go with Neville. Besides, Ginny didn't ask him; it was the other way around, and Ginny was Neville's second choice. Does anyone ask if Neville was using Ginny to make Hermione jealous?
And the second question I have to say NO to as well. If she was trying to make Harry jealous don't you think she would have flaunted the relationships? Harry never really saw her with Michael, except for DA meetings, which are hardly romantic settings. And when he and Ron walked in on Dean and Ginny it was a surprise to everyone, including Ginny. Plus after she and Dean were caught out her attention was almost entirely on Ron and his sexist reaction to her kissing someone; she barely even knew that Harry was there.
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xray - Jan 31, 2007 10:32 am (#1493 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Was Ginny using Neville just to go to the Ball and maybe make Harry jealous? - Honour
Actually I don't see how anyone could make this assessment given the information provided.
"Right," said Ron, who looked extremely put out, "this is getting stupid. Ginny, you can go with Harry, and I'll just—"
"I can't," said Ginny, and she went scarlet too. "I'm going with — with Neville. He asked me when Hermione said no, and I thought... well... I'm not going to be able to go otherwise, I'm not in fourth year." She looked extremely miserable. "I think I'll go and have dinner," she said, and she got up and walked off to the portrait hole, her head bowed. - GoF, US ed., page 401
Rowling gave Ginny a lot of dialog to fully explain her situation, basically telling the reader that she has no romantic interest in Neville. Her going scarlet, her bowed head, and back on page 399 we saw
"I asked her to go with me just now," Harry said dully, "and she told me."
Ginny had suddenly stopped smiling.
are giant neon signs to the reader that she still has a thing for Harry. Gah, poor Ginny... she missed a golden opportunity to go with Harry to the Yule Ball. I can SO imagine how she must have felt, yet she kept her word to Neville. I felt so bad for her when I read that.
In that little scene we learn so much about Ginny. She REALLY wanted to go to the ball with Harry but she kept her word to Neville. But if one hates Ginny then I can see how it'd be easy to overlook this on a first read.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 31, 2007 10:53 am (#1494 of 1858)
Ginny could not have gone to the Ball with Harry. In the whole time he was desperate for a date, he never thought to ask her. He didn't see her as datable, didn't want to go with her or even consider it. When Ron suggests they go together, Harry doesn't even respond when Ginny can't go. He just hits on the next girl who walks by. Harry almost ignored Ginny for five books, until he got a chest monster for her.
Ginny may have not been using Neville to make Harry jealous. I disagree with that, but I do think she was using the other boys she dates, because she spent a lot of time with them, and she by her own admission ahd never gotten over Harry. Dean was certainly serious about her, judging from his reaction to the public display in the common room. She could have had fun with other people without letting them think they had a chance with her when they did not. I especially love Dean. I think he got the shaft.
If Jo wanted us to think of Harry and Ginny as equals, she did a poor job of it. Harry is by prophesy, Voldemort's equal, and we know Ginny is nowhere near that powerful yet. She's a total waste at both battles she's in. During one she breaks her ankle at once, and despite having her wand and her voice does nothing else. Neville, without either, still stands by Harry. In the second, Ginny admits she would have died without the Felix, and we don't see her do anything except dodge spells and toss her hair around.
If Ginny is just the love interest, the little prize Harry gets for winning, it's extremely demeaning to her and to women in general. She's often just an object that Jo uses when she has a plot point to push. Harry does not take her seriously at any point I can remember. He forgets her possession. When she tries to talk to him about dementors, he seizes on the tattoo comment. When she questions him about listening to a book, he fluffs her off. When he breaks up with her, he doesn't even tell her that he probably won't be back at Hogwarts anyway. He has no interest in her concern. That's not a good relationship.
If R/Hr were the ones who were childish, and Jo wanted us to think H/G were taking the high road, why did Jo says R/Hr were the ones who had anvil sized hints, and not H/G? She never said "Now we know it's H/G." She said that about Ron and Hermione.
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journeymom - Jan 31, 2007 11:05 am (#1495 of 1858)
Ginny liked Neville well enough, and she couldn't go to the Yule Ball otherwise, since she was a third year. It's just a school dance, this isn't the same as Merope manipulating Tom Riddle Sr. with a love potion. I was not romantically interested in the guy I went to Senior Ball with. Hermione explained to Harry and Ron that Ginny 'gave up' on Harry and got on with her life. As a mother of a daughter I think that was a smart, healthy thing to do. 13 y.o, 14 y.o. is too young to settle on one guy for the rest of your life. Counting Neville, Michael Corner and Dean Thomas, Ginny dated all of three other guys. All of them are decent guys. For pity's sake, I had crushes on dozens of guys while I was in high school.
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journeymom - Jan 31, 2007 11:22 am (#1496 of 1858)
I really, truly, sincerely do not understand why it would be so nice for Dean Thomas to 'end up with' Ginny if Ginny is this manipulative, useless, hair tossing, awful person. That makes no sense.
Harry didn't notice Ginny like he doesn't notice a lot of things. Yes, Ginny and Harry getting together is a plot device, like Voldemort is a plot device. JKR wanted Harry to do a lot of other things before she brought Harry and Ginny together. I do think JKR did not do Harry and Ginny's relationship very well. I knew it was coming but it didn't seem natural and it was rather sudden. But I guess the difference is that I like who Ginny has become. She's mischievous, smart and athletic. She's fun.
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xray - Jan 31, 2007 11:32 am (#1497 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Ginny could not have gone to the Ball with Harry. -- Die Zimtzicke
Clearly she could have gone with Harry had she not already told Neville she'd go with him.
He didn't see her as datable, didn't want to go with her or even consider it. When Ron suggests they go together, Harry doesn't even respond when Ginny can't go. He just hits on the next girl who walks by.
You don't know that he didn't want to go with her. Jo is showing the readers a typical boy, not realizing what he's got even when it's right under his nose. That's a PERFECT assessment of teenage boys, especially at 15 years of age... trust me, I was one (and I was worse than Harry). Harry wasn't supposed to notice Ginny until it was the right time.
Speaking of "right under his nose", in a Time Pacific interview with Jo (back in December of 2000 when she was less guarded about her secrets), Rowling was talking strictly about the Trio and out of the blue she pulls Ginny into the discussion. She wasn't asked a question about Ginny, she volunteered it herself:
I would say Harry has flaws and failings. He was too proud [in the fourth book] to talk to Ron about what was bothering them both. Harry was walking around thinking, 'I'm the one with all the problems,' and he did have a lot of problems, but Ron had been a faithful friend for three years, and I would have cut Ron a little more slack. And what about Ginny [Ron's younger sister]? Poor Ginny, languishing in love for Harry, and he's merrily asking out other girls right under her nose! But that's just a boy thing."
That was said while she was writing OotP where we saw: "Yeah," said Ron slowly, savoring the words, "we won. Did you see the look on Chang's face when Ginny got the Snitch right out from under her nose?" I don't think it's a coincidence.
I do think she was using the other boys she dates, because she spent a lot of time with them, and she by her own admission ahd never gotten over Harry.
Yes, she never did really get over Harry. Isn't that common among first crushes? And seriously, I can't fathom how she may have been using the other boys she dates. Wouldn't that constitute a short-lived fling? As I recall she dated Michael Corner for a year, then dated Dean for almost another year.
I especially love Dean. I think he got the shaft.
Somehow I can't help but think you're confusing canon with fanfiction. Dean's character was hardly developed in Rowling's books.
Harry is by prophesy, Voldemort's equal, and we know Ginny is nowhere near that powerful yet.
We don't know that. We have no idea of the extent of Ginny's power except for what Jo tells us and she alludes to the fact that Ginny is in fact very powerful in both the books and in her interviews.
She's a total waste at both battles she's in
Hee! I see you got suckered in by Jo. There's still one book left.
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journeymom - Jan 31, 2007 11:46 am (#1498 of 1858)
Harry doesn't yet seem that magically powerful to me. He said so himself, he's been lucky, friends and family have helped him at just the right moment many times. He can think fast and keep his cool under pressure and find resources. These are not magical traits, they're just human. If he has powerful innate magic he has not tapped it or mastered it. He may yet develop exceptional talent in other subjects, but if he never does it won't matter. All Harry has ever wanted was to be normal. Voldemort is exceptionally magically talented and I don't think Harry will ever be his equal there.
Harry is Voldemort's equal because JKR says so, because that's how the plot is supposed to go. Just like Ginny is Harry's equal, it's a plot device.
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sstabeler - Jan 31, 2007 11:55 am (#1499 of 1858)
Erm, Harry produced a patronus at 13 when even grown wizards struggle with it? even the head of the department of magical law enforcement found that impressive. not to mention, he won the triwizard tournament when he was 3 years younger than the rest of the participants, he has held off Lord Voldemort several times, i don't think any old wizard could do that. also, ntoice that the head of the department of magical law enforcement, described a sa powerful witch, was not able to survive an encounter wiht Lord Voldemort? equally notice that Lord Voldemort did not AK Madam Bones straight away, as she was able to put up a fight. sounds like harry is more magically powerful than at first seems.
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peachespig - Jan 31, 2007 1:24 pm (#1500 of 1858)
Hmm, DZ said a lot of things and I think I disagree with most of them. I agree with a lot of what xray said in response, but I'll add a few words of my own. Let me start with the thing DZ said that uses the words I used before and so is probably meant for me:
If R/Hr were the ones who were childish, and Jo wanted us to think H/G were taking the high road, why did Jo says R/Hr were the ones who had anvil sized hints, and not H/G? She never said "Now we know it's H/G." She said that about Ron and Hermione.
Honestly I don't see what these two things have to do with each other. Yes, it's true, the R/Hr relationship was a lot more obvious than the H/G relationship; the former plotline was clearly visible since GoF, while the latter was only obliquely hinted at until HBP. Why can't R/Hr be a couple that has been obvious for a while and yet act less than totally mature, while H/G has been made obvious only more recently and yet they act more mature? I don't see any connection.
Ginny could not have gone to the Ball with Harry.
Sure she could have, if she said yes and then Harry accepted it. Harry wasn't interested in her then of course, but he was desperate for a date; who's to say he wouldn't have agreed to Ron's suggestion?
In the whole time he was desperate for a date, he never thought to ask her. He didn't see her as datable, didn't want to go with her or even consider it.
The first statement is obviously true, but the second is pure speculation, and I would say unfounded. He doesn't consider it because the possibility is removed almost as soon as it's created. We never hear him have a negative thought about her "datability" -- I don't even think Harry would think about people in those terms. (Though Ron clearly would and did, see Eloise Midgen.)
She could have had fun with other people without letting them think they had a chance with her when they did not.
How can you be sure she didn't think Dean did have a chance with her? We don't always know our hearts ahead of time. Who's to say she didn't fully give Dean a chance to win her heart -- away from Harry or anyone else -- and it just didn't work out?
Just because she says, circa the end of HBP, that she never gave up on Harry, doesn't mean she hadn't thought, or hoped, that Michael or Dean might cause her to give up on him. She seems to have given relationships with both boys a real shot. Seems like the right way to behave to me.
If Jo wanted us to think of Harry and Ginny as equals, she did a poor job of it. Harry is by prophesy, Voldemort's equal, and we know Ginny is nowhere near that powerful yet. She's a total waste at both battles she's in.
I'm pretty sure you made this comparison before, and I said then I think you're misunderstanding what Jo meant by "equals". She didn't mean equal in magical ability or usefulness in battle or even role in the story -- Harry may be ahead of Ginny in all those regards. From Jo's context, talking about them both going through an emotional journey, she is clearly talking about them being emotional equals -- fit for a mature and respectful mutual relationship. Just that.
If Ginny is just the love interest, the little prize Harry gets for winning, it's extremely demeaning to her and to women in general.
I disagree strongly. An author can have a purpose for a character without demeaning the character as an imaginary human being, and every character in this book is defined in some way by who they are to Harry -- that's because he's the star. Ron is not demeaned by being "just" the best friend. Dumbledore is not demeaned by being "just" the mentor. She's made for us interesting characters to fill in those stereotypical roles.
He has no interest in her concern.
I think you are choosing to see all their interactions in the most negative light possible. Yes, Harry did not show interest in her for many years; but I see no reason to think that by the time they are together, he's anything but respectful of her. The thing is, Harry has clearly come to think of Ginny as the happiness he wishes he could have, if not for Voldemort; and so he wants to keep her safe as he wants to safeguard the idea of that happiness. So he wants to protect her instead of exposing her to danger.
Do you really think Ginny is going to allow herself to be "kept safe", however?
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I disagee with that. Phineas tells him not to run, saying those are Dumbledore's orders. Harry never discusses with Ginny his feeling that he needs to get away. Then Hermione shows up. Ginny tells him he should remember she was possessed, too and he says he forgot. Then Hermione reminds him he could not have been apparated away from Hogwarts, and Ron confirms this, saying Harry was in his bed the whole time. Ginny's part in this no greater than anyone else's and she definitely didn't have anything to do with Hary decididng not to run away.
I see that as bad for H/G, because it was a great time for Harry and Ginny to actually discuss ora t least arrange to discuss when tehy were alone, their shared experinces with Voldemort, and they don't.
As for her not being in a relationship with Harry when she did many of her hot tempered, rude things, she had never given up on him by her own admission, and was trying to do things to make him notice her.
If she had NOT said she never gave up on Harry, and they had really gotten to know each other in the text as friends first, I'd have no problem with her. That's what ruins her for me. Everything she does while she is hoping, as she tells him, that "you might take a bit more notice" is suspect to me.
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rambkowalczyk - Jan 20, 2007 8:16 am (#1452 of 1858)
If she had NOT said she never gave up on Harry, and they had really gotten to know each other in the text as friends first, I'd have no problem with her. That's what ruins her for me. Everything she does while she is hoping, as she tells him, that "you might take a bit more notice" is suspect to me. Die Zim
Interesting idea. Was Ginny's obnoxious behavior (in your opinion)because she was trying to get Harry to notice her? Was she less obnoxious after Harry started dated her?
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Eponine - Jan 20, 2007 8:39 am (#1453 of 1858)
You know, I understand that you don't like Ginny or H/G, and that's your prerogative. No one here is insisting that you must love her or even find her tolerable, but I still do not understand how you could pair her up with Neville.
There is nothing in canon to indicate that he would temper her behavior or she would bring out the best in him. And I'm not even sure what that would be, as Neville has been a strong character since PS/SS. There is nothing in canon to indicate that either of them have feelings for each other beyond friendship.
It just seems unlikely to me that dating Neville would turn Ginny into a character you'd like. Unless the only reason you want her with Neville is so she won't be with Harry.
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juliebug - Jan 20, 2007 9:05 am (#1454 of 1858)
I, of course, can't speak for Die, but was a big fan of a Neville/Ginny pairing and think we may be on a similar page, on this topic.
Ginny always used the power of her popularity for good where Neville was concerned. She never feared what being in his company would do to her own reputation. She never allowed anyone, even Neville himself, to talk badly about him. Talking about Neville always brought to light the best part of Ginny's personality.
Neville seems to be a bit bolder when Ginny is around. While there are plenty of brave things Neville does without Ginny's presense, he still does seem to consistantly rise up to meet challenges when Ginny is near him. I always thought that if the two of them became an item, that Neville would get a bit more "street cred" with the other students, something he truly deserves anyway, but might not get without some help.
I do not hate Ginny. I like her. My biggest fear of a Harry/Ginny pairing was that it would demean her character. I have always felt that was a strong enough character that she didn't need to be Harry's girl just to gain importance in the stories. I've come to accept that this is the way that JKR always intended for that story line to go, but I still think that Neville and Ginny could have been great for each other.
p.s. As I said at the beginning, this are my thoughts. If Die does not agree with me and feels I have misspoken, she (or anyone else who thinks I spoke out of turn) may feel free to call me a barmy old codger.
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Eponine - Jan 20, 2007 9:41 am (#1455 of 1858)
With the exception of the first time we see Luna in OotP, and Ginny calls her 'Loony', she does the same thing for Luna. Ginny is the one who insists they sit with her on the train, and we have Luna herself tell us that Ginny stopped some boys from calling her Loony and saying that Ginny is very nice to her. Her behavior towards Neville is nothing she didn't do for Luna either. (And correct me if I'm wrong, but I can only recall the one time on the train when she wouldn't let Neville talk badly about himself. Is there another time in the books when she stood up for him?)
juliebug, I have nothing against the N/G pairing. Personally, I don't think it has any basis in canon, but if people want to ship it, that's their business. What I don't understand is people who clearly can't stand the girl, but they'll happily ship her with Neville. It just isn't consistent to me. If you (general you) dislike her character so much, why in the world would you want to put her with a character you do like? It's just very very strange to me. To me, it comes across as a way to get her away from Harry and little more.
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Thom Matheson - Jan 20, 2007 10:54 am (#1456 of 1858)
Juliebug, thanks for letting me call you a barmy old codger, and if and when the need arises I shall do so with the utmost respect and of course timing. But, now is not that time.(slinks away lirking in the threads for the right opportunity).
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journeymom - Jan 20, 2007 3:32 pm (#1457 of 1858)
Eponine, great point.
Juliebug said, "I have always felt that was a strong enough character that she didn't need to be Harry's girl just to gain importance in the stories. I've come to accept that this is the way that JKR always intended for that story line to go, but I still think that Neville and Ginny could have been great for each other. "
You are so right, Ginny is a strong character. That's why JKR created her, to be equal to Harry. We have to bear in mind, JKR's main character is Harry, and she created Ginny FOR Harry. Stating it so explicitly like that sounds almost -sexist? disrespectful to Ginny? Sorry, I'm not sure how to word what I'm thinking. But Ginny is not the main character.
I hope you all are mind-readers and can figure out that I mean no disrespect to Ginny. I'm one of Ginny's fans.
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Liz Mann - Jan 20, 2007 5:06 pm (#1458 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
If she had NOT said she never gave up on Harry, and they had really gotten to know each other in the text as friends first, I'd have no problem with her. That's what ruins her for me. Everything she does while she is hoping, as she tells him, that "you might take a bit more notice" is suspect to me.
I don't see what's wrong with Ginny hoping Harry might take a bit more notice of her if she was more herself around him. That does not mean that every mean thing she did was trying to get Harry to notice her, or even that she was actively trying to impress him, just that she tried to relax around him.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 20, 2007 6:47 pm (#1459 of 1858)
Ginny is nowhere near equal to Harry, and I still can't figure out why Jo said that, even though she added the "pretty much" part to it and mentioned that she was just hoping the readers saw Ginny that way. For Harry is canonically equal to Voldemort, and Ginny has nowhere near that much potential as I see it. Being able to make flying snot appear isn't that great an achievement to put her in that category.
I'd like Ginny with anyone that doesn't leave her to be the prize that Harry the conquering hero gets for winning. That IS demeaning, and if she has no other point than to be a love interest for the hero, that's all she is...the Weasley that Harry can snog.
Neville is just an example, because he seems to be so nice that he could tone down her temper and make her a happy person. But I'd take Neville, or a redeemed Draco, or darned near anyone to prevent that from happening.
Besides, Jo hasn't even confirmed for certain, beyond a doubt, that Harry even survives. If he dies, which I think is quite possible, do you think 16 year old Ginny is going to or even should mourn Harry for the rest of her life? I say no way! That's demeaning, too. It gives her the appearance of having no value outside of Harry.
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journeymom - Jan 21, 2007 12:55 am (#1460 of 1858)
Since you bring up Ginny's magical abilities, Harry is most definitly NOT Voldemort's equal. Because of the prophecy he is Voldemort's opponent.
Stating that Ginny is Harry's 'prize' is very demeaning, not only to Ginny but also Harry. But being the Weasley that Harry snogs isn't unreasonable. Ron is Harry's best friend. Harry likes all the Weasleys generally, even Percy until he turned into a right git. Ginny is a Weasley.
Draco? Only in fan fiction. Why does Ginny's temper need toning down? Neville could never satisfy Ginny. Who ever implied that Ginny would mourn Harry for the rest of her life? Who knows, maybe Ginny will die. I do think Harry would mourn her for the rest of his life, but he wouldn't stop living.
ALL the characters in this story have a part to play, Ginny is simply one of them. Die Zim, perhaps your arguement is with JKR because you are not satisfied with the way she portrays Harry's partner. Without referring to Ginny and her shortcomings, what would your ideal partner for Harry be like?
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peachespig - Jan 21, 2007 1:29 am (#1461 of 1858)
Hi all, I'm new on the Lexicon forum, but I immediately thought I'd check out the ships thread.
journeymom said:
You are so right, Ginny is a strong character. That's why JKR created her, to be equal to Harry. We have to bear in mind, JKR's main character is Harry, and she created Ginny FOR Harry. Stating it so explicitly like that sounds almost -sexist? disrespectful to Ginny?
I agree, and I don't think you should worry about it being disrespectful to her; all the characters are in some sense created to have a certain relationship to Harry, be it friend or foil or mentor or love interest. We can go back and forth between thinking of them as people, and thinking of them as having roles in the plot; from the first point of view Ginny may be an independent person, but from the second point of view she's a character with a role to play, and every character orbits around Harry.
Die Zimtzicke said:
Ginny is nowhere near equal to Harry, and I still can't figure out why Jo said that, even though she added the "pretty much" part to it and mentioned that she was just hoping the readers saw Ginny that way. For Harry is canonically equal to Voldemort, and Ginny has nowhere near that much potential as I see it.
I think you may be confusing "equal" in the sense of power or in the sense of importance to the plot with "equal" in the sense of character maturity. When JKR said Harry and Ginny were total equals, she was talking about the emotional journey they had both gone through, having to do with the development of their characters -- how they had both grown up to the point that they were worthy of each other, meaning they were ready and able to be in a mutually positive, healthy relationship. Voldemort may be a powerful wizard who's important to the story, but as far as his character goes, he's far from being the equal of either Harry or Ginny.
I'd like Ginny with anyone that doesn't leave her to be the prize that Harry the conquering hero gets for winning. That IS demeaning, and if she has no other point than to be a love interest for the hero, that's all she is...the Weasley that Harry can snog.
I guess I don't really see why that's "all" she is. Ron is Harry's friend and sidekick, does that demean him because that's all he is? Ginny and Ron both have roles, sure, but I think JKR also did a nice job fleshing them out as people we can identify with beyond just their role in the plot. What is it about Ginny that "demeans" her if she's the love interest, that wouldn't demean any other girl?
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xray - Jan 21, 2007 1:55 am (#1462 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
I see that as bad for H/G, because it was a great time for Harry and Ginny to actually discuss ora t least arrange to discuss when tehy were alone, their shared experinces with Voldemort, and they don't.
Not really. We are expecting this to come to pass and this may have been a good opportunity according to us, the readers. However, the author has decided to eiter wait or do it differently. I believe she's waiting to a more appropriate time... when Harry needs to know crucial information that only Ginny, albeit unknowningly, has.
Everything she does while she is hoping, as she tells him, that "you might take a bit more notice" is suspect to me.
Actually I must disagree here. Let's look at the text: Page 647, HBP She looked away from him, over the lake. "I never really gave up on you," she said. "Not really. I always hoped . . . Hermione told me to get on with life, maybe go out with some other people, relax a bit around you, because I never used to be able to talk if you were in the room, remember? And she thought you might take a bit more notice if I was a bit more—myself."
(I think it's so cute too.) I can't understand how you can hate Ginny because of this paragraph.
Ginny is nowhere near equal to Harry, and I still can't figure out why Jo said that, even though she added the "pretty much" part to it and mentioned that she was just hoping the readers saw Ginny that way. For Harry is canonically equal to Voldemort, and Ginny has nowhere near that much potential as I see it. Being able to make flying snot appear isn't that great an achievement to put her in that category.
Hrm, I don't know. JKR has led us to believe that Ginny is an extremely powerful witch and her primary example is the Bat Bogey Hex. Fred and George are certainly wary of it and Slughorn was quite impressed and expects great things from Ginny given simply his witness of her casting it on a single occasion. Who are we to decide that the spell is simple or not complex enough to exemplify Ginny's remarkable power? We might not think it's enough, but I Jo believes it is.
I'd like Ginny with anyone that doesn't leave her to be the prize that Harry the conquering hero gets for winning.
Hrm, I am a little surprised that anyone would think this is Jo's purpose for Ginny. I certainly don't see her as simply Harry's prize. Her character has been built up slowly and steadily throughout the series to where I believe she's going to be an integral part in helping Harry defeat Voldemort.
Without referring to Ginny and her shortcomings, what would your ideal partner for Harry be like?
Yes, I'm very curious myself.
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Rosie Lu - Jan 21, 2007 3:00 am (#1463 of 1858)
Neville is just an example, because he seems to be so nice that he could tone down her temper and make her a happy person.
I absolutely love Neville, he's my favorite character after Harry, but I don't understand why Neville would need to tone Ginny down. She's fine the way she is, and she's perfectly happy with Harry, as Harry is with her.
If he dies, which I think is quite possible, do you think 16 year old Ginny is going to or even should mourn Harry for the rest of her life?
It is possible Harry will die, yes, although I'm one of the ones who believes he won't. But, I do take Ginny's statement about "never giving up" on Harry to mean that since she hasn't given up on him all this time, she certainly won't give up on him in DH, no matter what happens. I'll admit that statement of Ginny's does convince me more that Harry'll survive and finally get a chance at a normal life.
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Eponine - Jan 21, 2007 8:40 am (#1464 of 1858)
There is more than one way to measure equality. Do you mean Voldemort is Harry's equal in power? (I would have to say Harry is nowhere near as powerful as LV) Is he is equal in importance to the story? Are they equals in their singing ability?
And Jo did not actually say 'pretty much' about the equals thing, it was about the ideal girl thing. This is what she had to say about the equals:
Harry has really grown. And I feel that Ginny and Harry, in this book, they are total equals. They are worthy of each other. They've both gone through a big emotional journey, and they've really got over a lot of delusions, to use your word, together.
She's talking about how they are equal emotionally. Not physically, not in terms of magical power or intellectually, but emotionally. And that's what's important.
As for Ginny being his reward, well, what's to say that any love interest won't be his reward? I doubt that Ginny is going to sit patiently at home weaving and unraveling until he returns to claim her. For a love interest to truly be nothing but a reward, she really has to be rather passive about it.
Besides, it's not really about a reward. It's about the characters getting a bit of happiness at the end of the journey. I'm not sure what's so bad about the survivors being happy.
I do find it interesting that you admit that you don't care who she's with, as long as it isn't Harry.
And as for Harry dying, well, if he does, my money's on Ginny dying too. However, if only she survives, then no, I don't expect her to mourn him forever, but I also wouldn't expect Jo to marry her off in the epilogue to someone just because she needs to be paired off with someone. It wouldn't make sense from a literary point of view to do that.
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Steve Newton - Jan 21, 2007 8:51 am (#1465 of 1858)
Librarian
Just as an aside, I think that when it comes to pure magical power Harry is more powerful that Voldemort. In the GOF he forced the light into Voldemort's wand. Voldemort is much more experienced and knowledgeable.
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Liz Mann - Jan 21, 2007 9:33 am (#1466 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
In that scene in the graveyard, I kind of got the feeling that Harry being able to force the bead of light back into Voldemort's wand had nothing to do with magical strength but the strength of his determination and his extraordinary ability to push his physical strength to the maximum. Harry has shown this latter ability many times, like when he held onto Quirrell's face, when he went for the snitch even after the bludger had broken his arm, etc.
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Steve Newton - Jan 21, 2007 9:46 am (#1467 of 1858)
Librarian
I'm not sure that I see the difference.
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haymoni - Jan 21, 2007 10:31 am (#1468 of 1858)
I just thought Harry figured out the beads of light before Voldy did. Something just told him he had to keep those beads going towards Voldy.
Harry doesn't seem to be surprised by magic. I mean, he is ALWAYS surprised by magic, but since he hasn't been around it much, when something bizarre happens, he really doesn't know the difference and really doesn't care.
Voldy on the other hand, sent his little AK at Harry, hoping to prove to his supporters that he was truly "The Greatest" and had things in hand.
But nooooooooooooo! Stuff went wrong again and that blasted kid got away.
I don't necessarily think that Harry was better than Voldy. He just wasn't overconfidant, which seems to be Voldy's downfall.
Hang on! This is the 'Shipping Thread.
What am I talking about again?
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Eponine - Jan 21, 2007 10:45 am (#1469 of 1858)
This is off topic for the thread, but I don't know about the measurement of magical power. Harry obviously has more love than Voldemort which will probably translate into LV's downfall, and during the scene in the graveyard, Harry had a much stronger motivation than Voldemort to move the beads of light. Harry was fighting for his life.
Voldemort definitely has more magical knowledge than Harry, though.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 21, 2007 3:23 pm (#1470 of 1858)
I still think Harry might have to die as he is so intwined with Voldemort, or I can see him being a lone hero. The problems in the wizarding world aren't going to go away the second Voldemort dies. They're still going to be there, and I can see Harry devoting himself to solving them. He said being with Ginny was like living someone else's life. Maybe he's starting to realize it is not his life and can never be. Since I don't like it in general, shipping gets WAY too much attention on too many boards to suit me.
If I had to put him with a girl, which would absolutely be my last choice, I'd want him to be with a girl that we have found out quite a bit about, her hopes, her dreams, and her aspirations, that he could have a real connection with, to discuss his past and his destiny, but no one like that has come along, especially not Ginny.
Before HBP the people I knew who liked H/G used to tell me to be patient, that Ginny was going to get over her crush on Harry, that we were going to see them making friends, talking together about all of the seious things as well as the simple, and becoming close, doing all sorts of things together, and connecting. They told me that Harry was going to really get to know her as a person, and she him, and it was not going to be a typical teenaged snogging relationship. The relationship that came out of that interaction was going to make them better, kinder, more giving people.
Well, I WAS patient, but I don't feel I got any of that. I didn't see the scenes I expected, that showed WHY they were perfect for each other. I saw Harry getting a chest monster, and having dreams he didn't want Ron to see, and dreaming of her sobbing over his body professing attraction. Not affection, just attraction. Even some of the fans I used to talk to that liked H/G have admitted they didn't get what they wanted to see. Can EVERY one here honestly say they think it was done perfectly?
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xray - Jan 21, 2007 3:58 pm (#1471 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Can EVERY one here honestly say they think it was done perfectly?
No, not perfectly. That would be more appropriate in a romance story. The "romance" aspect is a side story. Jo did it in a way she wanted and I'm happy with that. It's not crucial to the story of Harry Potter no matter how much we might want it to be. Personally, I was pleased with how it turned out.
Besides, no matter how "perfectly" she might write it, there are tons of others who'd say differently.
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Liz Mann - Jan 21, 2007 7:22 pm (#1472 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
'Perfect' is a matter of opinion. Some people might say it happened perfectly and others might not.
...Ginny was going to get over her crush on Harry, that we were going to see them making friends, talking together about all of the seious things as well as the simple, and becoming close, doing all sorts of things together, and connecting. They told me that Harry was going to really get to know her as a person, and she him, and it was not going to be a typical teenaged snogging relationship. The relationship that came out of that interaction was going to make them better, kinder, more giving people.
Ginny did get over her crush to a certain extent even if she didn't get over it completely. They did make friends. They did have moments together even if they didn't start hanging out just the two of them much. Harry's best friends are Ron and Hermione after all, and it's more important to the story's plot for him to spend time with them. Harry did get to know her better when she started talking around him. As for the relationship making them better, kinder, more giving people, that may be so if this story were a romance, but it's not. If Harry and Ginny do become those things then it'll more likely be because of their other experiences, not because of the relationship. As xray said the romance is a side story.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 21, 2007 10:34 pm (#1473 of 1858)
Whenever there was a chance for Jo to really show Ginny and Hary doing something together, Jo blew past it. We didn't get many conversations and scenes of them. We just got told they were hanging out at the Burrow, or that she was the heart of the team.
Forgive us fans who like to be shown things instead of told...
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xray - Jan 21, 2007 10:48 pm (#1474 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Whenever there was a chance for Jo to really show Ginny and Hary doing something together, Jo blew past it. We didn't get many conversations and scenes of them. We just got told they were hanging out at the Burrow, or that she was the heart of the team.
It's not a romance novel.
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Eponine - Jan 21, 2007 11:06 pm (#1475 of 1858)
Even though Jo has said that these books are for herself, she's also very aware that these books have a large audience of children. I doubt she wants to put 10 year old boys through long, heartfelt conversations about the characters' hopes and dreams. The way she handled the romance in HBP was appropriate for all ages and types of fans. Certainly, it might not have been as thorough as some fans would have liked, but it was suitable for all the people who read the books.
And quite frankly, long, drawn-out descriptions of the time spent at the Burrow and Quidditch practices have never been a part of the books. She's always glossed over a lot of things that happen, and for her to insert them in this book would have been awkward and alien to the style of the books.
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Rosie Lu - Jan 22, 2007 2:54 am (#1476 of 1858)
I have to agree with xray here in that these books are not romance novels. There was already way more romance stuff in HBP than previous books. I thought it was handled well as a fun little side story, but anything more and I would've started wondering if I was still reading Harry Potter.
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peachespig - Jan 22, 2007 7:23 pm (#1477 of 1858)
I agree with the previous couple comments. I think romance in Harry Potter is like dessert -- something light and tasty that sets off the rest of the meal. Sure, left to my devices I might have five helpings and skip the other courses
, but like a good chef JKR knows how much is too much for the meal she's giving us. I do wish there was more Harry and Ginny interaction, but then, I wish there was more of a lot of things. I think she found a great balance with HBP for what makes a great book -- a lot better than OotP -- but that means she just couldn't give us as much as we might want of everything.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 22, 2007 7:36 pm (#1478 of 1858)
I wondered if I was still reading Harry Potter because there were so few little light, cheerful romantic touches and so much teen hormone-induced angst.
The twins accusing Ginny of having five boys on the string was not romantic in my opinion. Neither was Ron practically calling her a slut and Harry wanting to agree, or her slurping with Dean in the hallway to begin with. Harry having a chest monster was not romantic, or him having dirty dreams about Ginny, or picturing her sobbing over him confessing attraction. Ron's using Lavender to gain sexual experience was not romantic, nor was Harry kissing Ginny in front of fifty people then looking around for everyone's reactions to the show. Hermione using McClaggan to make Ron jealous wasn't romantic. It was pathetic.
This was not a fun, little side story as I saw it, nor a romance novel. It was Jo trying to make teenagers look totally hormone driven and succeeding.
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peachespig - Jan 22, 2007 8:09 pm (#1479 of 1858)
Well, DZ, I'm sorry the romantic subplots didn't work for you. I thought it was fun, which is not to say there weren't painful moments. But I don't think it's the right criterion, looking at each development in those storylines and asking if they're "romantic". Many of the things you mentioned aren't supposed to be "romantic" in the true sense, though they did concern romance.
First off, the H/G and R/Hr storylines were clearly presented in a different way. Harry's crush on Ginny was supposed to be sweet and amusing, and I think it succeeded. All those things you didn't like -- the chest monster, his undescribed naughty dreams about her, the imagined confession of attraction -- made me smile and feel more affection for him. I thought it was all very cute. He was so awkward and nervous about it all, all the way up until the kiss, the poor guy. To me there was a great balance there between keeping it clean for the kiddies, while at the same time conveying with suggestive humor the feelings of a teenager.
The Ron and Hermione storyline, on the other hand, was clearly meant to be funny in a painful kind of way, and there were lots of moments that made me wince. But even though I got frustrated with the characters, I never lost my affection for them; I still understood all too well where they were coming from. Hermione using McLaggen was neither romantic nor pathetic, in my opinion -- it was a bit wicked and a bit painful, and yep, pretty funny. And Ron -- while we know Lavender wasn't his true love or anything, there's no way I would say he was "using" her. Physically demonstrative though they were, they were together for months, she gave him a ridiculous "My Sweetheart" pimp chain -- I'm sure they had some sweet, if temporary, moments together. It was a typical teenaged relationship -- which I don't think is an evil thing.
So I don't see why it can't both be a fun side story (or stories really, since H/G and R/Hr were so different) and accurately lampoon teenage drama. JKR has always had a dark sense of humor when it comes to human frailties, and I don't see why romance should be any different.
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journeymom - Jan 22, 2007 8:21 pm (#1480 of 1858)
Teenagers are angsty and hormone ridden. JKR portrayed this truth in a pretty funny way. Sometimes a person can really miss the point, which is too bad, because what a sad, miserable reading experience that must be.
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Rosie Lu - Jan 22, 2007 10:36 pm (#1481 of 1858)
Teenagers are angsty and hormone ridden. JKR portrayed this truth in a pretty funny way.
Yep, I agree. I found the romance - as I said previously - fun. I think it was funny, sweet and everything peachespig described. I thought it was very realistic. Of course not everyone has to agree, but I think that's all Jo was trying to do with the romance.
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haymoni - Jan 23, 2007 5:10 am (#1482 of 1858)
I don't think teenage love is supposed to be romantic. It is what it is - a bunch of hormones and out-of-control emotions. Watching the characters deal with these emotions has been a riot.
Fleur's devotion to Bill, Tonks fighting for love with Remus, Arthur & Molly having pet names - I thought those parts were romantic.
I don't see any of the kids being at that kind of level yet.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 24, 2007 10:01 am (#1483 of 1858)
Thank you, Kaymoni. You got my point. I don't see them being at that kind of level yet, either. I don't think any of them are truly in love, or truly know wht they want at this point. Teenaged love is sometimes real, I concede, but not usually, and a lot of fans I know take shipping way too seriously. I can't. It's just not at a serious level to me yet.
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Eponine - Jan 24, 2007 11:35 am (#1484 of 1858)
I agree that a lot of people take shipping way too seriously. I mean, there are message boards out there that are devoted solely to discussing and dissecting a certain ship. I just can't imagine spending that much time talking about the relationships between a couple of fictional characters.
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peachespig - Jan 24, 2007 1:27 pm (#1485 of 1858)
haymoni said, Fleur's devotion to Bill, Tonks fighting for love with Remus, Arthur & Molly having pet names - I thought those parts were romantic.
Yes, I agree -- especially Bill and Fleur. I think JKR thought rightly that writing either R/Hr or H/G as either cloyingly sweet or melodramatic would have had the wrong tone at this point in their lives and their relationships.
The thing is, I think a lot of readers are focusing not just on the current state of the relationship, but where the text is telling us it's headed. Ron and Hermione spend a lot of HBP fighting, but we readers know the way it was done means they'll be together before the end of the series. Because of that, the fighting -- despite it being painful -- can seem sweeter than it would otherwise be because we know where it's going.
Then there's also the fact that Harry reacts in the exact same way to Hermione asking Ron to the Slug Club party as he did to Arthur and Molly's pet names. R/Hr haven't reached the longtime-couple, romantic stage that Arthur and Molly have, but I'd say the text is telling us pretty clearly that those couples are at different stages on the same trajectory.
DZ said, a lot of fans I know take shipping way too seriously. I can't. It's just not at a serious level to me yet.
I guess I take it seriously in the amount of thought I've given it, though mostly I find it fun rather than traumatic. I'm glad you've spared yourself from spending a lot of time thinking about Harry's love life!
I do think that H/G will almost certainly have a true "romantic" moment or two (in the sense you mean) before DH is over, and I wouldn't be surprised if R/Hr do as well. In fact, I would say the break-up scene from HBP already has that flavor of real romance, with each sacrificing something for the other.
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Gatorgrad1991 - Jan 29, 2007 6:08 am (#1486 of 1858)
Eponine said: I mean, there are message boards out there that are devoted solely to discussing and dissecting a certain ship.
And sites/forums/communities that are dedicated to talking exclusively about why other ships are gross. I can more easily understand people devoting so much time and energy to discussing something they like, but something you HATE?! It makes absolutely no sense to me.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 29, 2007 12:00 pm (#1487 of 1858)
People who have strong feelings on any subject like to spend time discussing them with others who feel the same way, I guess.
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Gatorgrad1991 - Jan 29, 2007 12:20 pm (#1488 of 1858)
Yeah, I see your point. I'm just always more about the things I like and enjoy than things that I dislike or find disgusting/repulsive. Not just in HP discussions, either.
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Honour - Jan 30, 2007 4:02 pm (#1489 of 1858)
Wow! what a discussion! I too am in the camp inwhich the Harry/Ginny pairing makes no sense whatsoever. I could never quite get over the whole obvious way inwhich JKR wrote Ginny 'especially' for Harry, and yes, I agree with some who say that JKR has fashioned Ginny into a palate, to serve to Harry as a prize for getting rid of Voldermort. And yes this is demeaning for Ginny and Harry. I myself, can't get over the fact that Ginny has similar looks to Lily! eorwer! I also agree that Ginny is not Harry's equal (even emotionally), just as Ron is not Hermione's equal (but that's an entirely other discussion).
Despite some saying that there was not enough interaction between Neville and Ginny to even suggest a relationship, she accompanyied (sp) Neville to the Yule Ball and Neville had a good time. Was Ginny using Neville just to go to the Ball and maybe make Harry jealous? Has Ginny used all of the guys she went out with, with the view inmind to make Harry jealous? Sounds like a nasty little girl and from my end a manipulative one too!
There you go Die, the heat's off you for awhile while the Ginny fans retrain their cannon's on me!
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Rosie Lu - Jan 30, 2007 4:09 pm (#1490 of 1858)
I also agree that Ginny is not Harry's equal (even emotionally), just as Ron is not Hermione's equal (but that's an entirely other discussion).
That's fine if you don't think so, but the author does and this is her story. She said Harry and Ginny are equals in terms of the emotional journeys they've gone on, and I take her word for it.
she accompanyied (sp) Neville to the Yule Ball and Neville had a good time. Was Ginny using Neville just to go to the Ball and maybe make Harry jealous?
There is nowhere in canon that said Neville had a good time. In the books, it says Neville trod on her feet and she met Michael Corner at the ball and later went onto date him.
Ginny has also never once used a guy to make Harry jealous. Do you see her flaunting her relationships in Harry's face? I don't. However, for an example of someone using someone to make another jealous, look at Hermione and Ron. She went to the Slug Club Christmas party for the sole purpose of using someone to make Ron jealous, and you know what? I don't hate her for it. She's a teenager.
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peachespig - Jan 30, 2007 8:14 pm (#1491 of 1858)
Honour said: Was Ginny using Neville just to go to the Ball and maybe make Harry jealous?
I don't think that makes any sense. Ginny was presented by Ron with a golden opportunity to go to the Ball with Harry; all she had to do was go back on her promise to Neville. But she stayed true to her word and honored her promise. If she was willing to be mean to Neville for the sake of snaring Harry, there was her chance right there -- but instead she did the decent and kind thing.
Ginny was, let's not forget, Neville's second choice for the Ball. If there were to be anyone Neville had a secret crush on, I would suppose it to be Hermione, who he asked first. Anyway, there's no evidence that the mere fact Ginny said "yes" to him means she was at all manipulative -- in fact I think her refusing to cancel her date with him for Harry demonstrates she was the opposite.
Rosie Lu said, However, for an example of someone using someone to make another jealous, look at Hermione and Ron.
I have to agree. Much as I love Hermione, I think her revenge date with McLaggen was far and away the single lowest thing we've seen any of the kids do in the romantic department. I'm not saying I don't understand her frustration -- because I do
-- but that was a petty thing to do. I do think that we're supposed to contrast Harry and Ginny, who seem to always take the high road in the romantic arena, with Ron and Hermione, who are just slightly more out of control and teenagerish about everything.
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Gatorgrad1991 - Jan 31, 2007 10:27 am (#1492 of 1858)
Honour said: Was Ginny using Neville just to go to the Ball and maybe make Harry jealous? Has Ginny used all of the guys she went out with, with the view inmind to make Harry jealous? Definitely NO to the first question. Ron practically handed her the opportunity to go to the ball with Harry on a silver platter, yet she chose to honor her committment to go with Neville. Besides, Ginny didn't ask him; it was the other way around, and Ginny was Neville's second choice. Does anyone ask if Neville was using Ginny to make Hermione jealous?
And the second question I have to say NO to as well. If she was trying to make Harry jealous don't you think she would have flaunted the relationships? Harry never really saw her with Michael, except for DA meetings, which are hardly romantic settings. And when he and Ron walked in on Dean and Ginny it was a surprise to everyone, including Ginny. Plus after she and Dean were caught out her attention was almost entirely on Ron and his sexist reaction to her kissing someone; she barely even knew that Harry was there.
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xray - Jan 31, 2007 10:32 am (#1493 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Was Ginny using Neville just to go to the Ball and maybe make Harry jealous? - Honour
Actually I don't see how anyone could make this assessment given the information provided.
"Right," said Ron, who looked extremely put out, "this is getting stupid. Ginny, you can go with Harry, and I'll just—"
"I can't," said Ginny, and she went scarlet too. "I'm going with — with Neville. He asked me when Hermione said no, and I thought... well... I'm not going to be able to go otherwise, I'm not in fourth year." She looked extremely miserable. "I think I'll go and have dinner," she said, and she got up and walked off to the portrait hole, her head bowed. - GoF, US ed., page 401
Rowling gave Ginny a lot of dialog to fully explain her situation, basically telling the reader that she has no romantic interest in Neville. Her going scarlet, her bowed head, and back on page 399 we saw
"I asked her to go with me just now," Harry said dully, "and she told me."
Ginny had suddenly stopped smiling.
are giant neon signs to the reader that she still has a thing for Harry. Gah, poor Ginny... she missed a golden opportunity to go with Harry to the Yule Ball. I can SO imagine how she must have felt, yet she kept her word to Neville. I felt so bad for her when I read that.
In that little scene we learn so much about Ginny. She REALLY wanted to go to the ball with Harry but she kept her word to Neville. But if one hates Ginny then I can see how it'd be easy to overlook this on a first read.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 31, 2007 10:53 am (#1494 of 1858)
Ginny could not have gone to the Ball with Harry. In the whole time he was desperate for a date, he never thought to ask her. He didn't see her as datable, didn't want to go with her or even consider it. When Ron suggests they go together, Harry doesn't even respond when Ginny can't go. He just hits on the next girl who walks by. Harry almost ignored Ginny for five books, until he got a chest monster for her.
Ginny may have not been using Neville to make Harry jealous. I disagree with that, but I do think she was using the other boys she dates, because she spent a lot of time with them, and she by her own admission ahd never gotten over Harry. Dean was certainly serious about her, judging from his reaction to the public display in the common room. She could have had fun with other people without letting them think they had a chance with her when they did not. I especially love Dean. I think he got the shaft.
If Jo wanted us to think of Harry and Ginny as equals, she did a poor job of it. Harry is by prophesy, Voldemort's equal, and we know Ginny is nowhere near that powerful yet. She's a total waste at both battles she's in. During one she breaks her ankle at once, and despite having her wand and her voice does nothing else. Neville, without either, still stands by Harry. In the second, Ginny admits she would have died without the Felix, and we don't see her do anything except dodge spells and toss her hair around.
If Ginny is just the love interest, the little prize Harry gets for winning, it's extremely demeaning to her and to women in general. She's often just an object that Jo uses when she has a plot point to push. Harry does not take her seriously at any point I can remember. He forgets her possession. When she tries to talk to him about dementors, he seizes on the tattoo comment. When she questions him about listening to a book, he fluffs her off. When he breaks up with her, he doesn't even tell her that he probably won't be back at Hogwarts anyway. He has no interest in her concern. That's not a good relationship.
If R/Hr were the ones who were childish, and Jo wanted us to think H/G were taking the high road, why did Jo says R/Hr were the ones who had anvil sized hints, and not H/G? She never said "Now we know it's H/G." She said that about Ron and Hermione.
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journeymom - Jan 31, 2007 11:05 am (#1495 of 1858)
Ginny liked Neville well enough, and she couldn't go to the Yule Ball otherwise, since she was a third year. It's just a school dance, this isn't the same as Merope manipulating Tom Riddle Sr. with a love potion. I was not romantically interested in the guy I went to Senior Ball with. Hermione explained to Harry and Ron that Ginny 'gave up' on Harry and got on with her life. As a mother of a daughter I think that was a smart, healthy thing to do. 13 y.o, 14 y.o. is too young to settle on one guy for the rest of your life. Counting Neville, Michael Corner and Dean Thomas, Ginny dated all of three other guys. All of them are decent guys. For pity's sake, I had crushes on dozens of guys while I was in high school.
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journeymom - Jan 31, 2007 11:22 am (#1496 of 1858)
I really, truly, sincerely do not understand why it would be so nice for Dean Thomas to 'end up with' Ginny if Ginny is this manipulative, useless, hair tossing, awful person. That makes no sense.
Harry didn't notice Ginny like he doesn't notice a lot of things. Yes, Ginny and Harry getting together is a plot device, like Voldemort is a plot device. JKR wanted Harry to do a lot of other things before she brought Harry and Ginny together. I do think JKR did not do Harry and Ginny's relationship very well. I knew it was coming but it didn't seem natural and it was rather sudden. But I guess the difference is that I like who Ginny has become. She's mischievous, smart and athletic. She's fun.
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xray - Jan 31, 2007 11:32 am (#1497 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Ginny could not have gone to the Ball with Harry. -- Die Zimtzicke
Clearly she could have gone with Harry had she not already told Neville she'd go with him.
He didn't see her as datable, didn't want to go with her or even consider it. When Ron suggests they go together, Harry doesn't even respond when Ginny can't go. He just hits on the next girl who walks by.
You don't know that he didn't want to go with her. Jo is showing the readers a typical boy, not realizing what he's got even when it's right under his nose. That's a PERFECT assessment of teenage boys, especially at 15 years of age... trust me, I was one (and I was worse than Harry). Harry wasn't supposed to notice Ginny until it was the right time.
Speaking of "right under his nose", in a Time Pacific interview with Jo (back in December of 2000 when she was less guarded about her secrets), Rowling was talking strictly about the Trio and out of the blue she pulls Ginny into the discussion. She wasn't asked a question about Ginny, she volunteered it herself:
I would say Harry has flaws and failings. He was too proud [in the fourth book] to talk to Ron about what was bothering them both. Harry was walking around thinking, 'I'm the one with all the problems,' and he did have a lot of problems, but Ron had been a faithful friend for three years, and I would have cut Ron a little more slack. And what about Ginny [Ron's younger sister]? Poor Ginny, languishing in love for Harry, and he's merrily asking out other girls right under her nose! But that's just a boy thing."
That was said while she was writing OotP where we saw: "Yeah," said Ron slowly, savoring the words, "we won. Did you see the look on Chang's face when Ginny got the Snitch right out from under her nose?" I don't think it's a coincidence.
I do think she was using the other boys she dates, because she spent a lot of time with them, and she by her own admission ahd never gotten over Harry.
Yes, she never did really get over Harry. Isn't that common among first crushes? And seriously, I can't fathom how she may have been using the other boys she dates. Wouldn't that constitute a short-lived fling? As I recall she dated Michael Corner for a year, then dated Dean for almost another year.
I especially love Dean. I think he got the shaft.
Somehow I can't help but think you're confusing canon with fanfiction. Dean's character was hardly developed in Rowling's books.
Harry is by prophesy, Voldemort's equal, and we know Ginny is nowhere near that powerful yet.
We don't know that. We have no idea of the extent of Ginny's power except for what Jo tells us and she alludes to the fact that Ginny is in fact very powerful in both the books and in her interviews.
She's a total waste at both battles she's in
Hee! I see you got suckered in by Jo. There's still one book left.
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journeymom - Jan 31, 2007 11:46 am (#1498 of 1858)
Harry doesn't yet seem that magically powerful to me. He said so himself, he's been lucky, friends and family have helped him at just the right moment many times. He can think fast and keep his cool under pressure and find resources. These are not magical traits, they're just human. If he has powerful innate magic he has not tapped it or mastered it. He may yet develop exceptional talent in other subjects, but if he never does it won't matter. All Harry has ever wanted was to be normal. Voldemort is exceptionally magically talented and I don't think Harry will ever be his equal there.
Harry is Voldemort's equal because JKR says so, because that's how the plot is supposed to go. Just like Ginny is Harry's equal, it's a plot device.
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sstabeler - Jan 31, 2007 11:55 am (#1499 of 1858)
Erm, Harry produced a patronus at 13 when even grown wizards struggle with it? even the head of the department of magical law enforcement found that impressive. not to mention, he won the triwizard tournament when he was 3 years younger than the rest of the participants, he has held off Lord Voldemort several times, i don't think any old wizard could do that. also, ntoice that the head of the department of magical law enforcement, described a sa powerful witch, was not able to survive an encounter wiht Lord Voldemort? equally notice that Lord Voldemort did not AK Madam Bones straight away, as she was able to put up a fight. sounds like harry is more magically powerful than at first seems.
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peachespig - Jan 31, 2007 1:24 pm (#1500 of 1858)
Hmm, DZ said a lot of things and I think I disagree with most of them.
I agree with a lot of what xray said in response, but I'll add a few words of my own. Let me start with the thing DZ said that uses the words I used before and so is probably meant for me: If R/Hr were the ones who were childish, and Jo wanted us to think H/G were taking the high road, why did Jo says R/Hr were the ones who had anvil sized hints, and not H/G? She never said "Now we know it's H/G." She said that about Ron and Hermione.
Honestly I don't see what these two things have to do with each other. Yes, it's true, the R/Hr relationship was a lot more obvious than the H/G relationship; the former plotline was clearly visible since GoF, while the latter was only obliquely hinted at until HBP. Why can't R/Hr be a couple that has been obvious for a while and yet act less than totally mature, while H/G has been made obvious only more recently and yet they act more mature? I don't see any connection.
Ginny could not have gone to the Ball with Harry.
Sure she could have, if she said yes and then Harry accepted it. Harry wasn't interested in her then of course, but he was desperate for a date; who's to say he wouldn't have agreed to Ron's suggestion?
In the whole time he was desperate for a date, he never thought to ask her. He didn't see her as datable, didn't want to go with her or even consider it.
The first statement is obviously true, but the second is pure speculation, and I would say unfounded. He doesn't consider it because the possibility is removed almost as soon as it's created. We never hear him have a negative thought about her "datability" -- I don't even think Harry would think about people in those terms. (Though Ron clearly would and did, see Eloise Midgen.)
She could have had fun with other people without letting them think they had a chance with her when they did not.
How can you be sure she didn't think Dean did have a chance with her? We don't always know our hearts ahead of time. Who's to say she didn't fully give Dean a chance to win her heart -- away from Harry or anyone else -- and it just didn't work out?
Just because she says, circa the end of HBP, that she never gave up on Harry, doesn't mean she hadn't thought, or hoped, that Michael or Dean might cause her to give up on him. She seems to have given relationships with both boys a real shot. Seems like the right way to behave to me.
If Jo wanted us to think of Harry and Ginny as equals, she did a poor job of it. Harry is by prophesy, Voldemort's equal, and we know Ginny is nowhere near that powerful yet. She's a total waste at both battles she's in.
I'm pretty sure you made this comparison before, and I said then I think you're misunderstanding what Jo meant by "equals". She didn't mean equal in magical ability or usefulness in battle or even role in the story -- Harry may be ahead of Ginny in all those regards. From Jo's context, talking about them both going through an emotional journey, she is clearly talking about them being emotional equals -- fit for a mature and respectful mutual relationship. Just that.
If Ginny is just the love interest, the little prize Harry gets for winning, it's extremely demeaning to her and to women in general.
I disagree strongly. An author can have a purpose for a character without demeaning the character as an imaginary human being, and every character in this book is defined in some way by who they are to Harry -- that's because he's the star. Ron is not demeaned by being "just" the best friend. Dumbledore is not demeaned by being "just" the mentor. She's made for us interesting characters to fill in those stereotypical roles.
He has no interest in her concern.
I think you are choosing to see all their interactions in the most negative light possible. Yes, Harry did not show interest in her for many years; but I see no reason to think that by the time they are together, he's anything but respectful of her. The thing is, Harry has clearly come to think of Ginny as the happiness he wishes he could have, if not for Voldemort; and so he wants to keep her safe as he wants to safeguard the idea of that happiness. So he wants to protect her instead of exposing her to danger.
Do you really think Ginny is going to allow herself to be "kept safe", however?
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Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 1501 to 1550)
Elanor Sun May 15, 2011 10:08 am
sstabeler - Jan 31, 2007 2:17 pm (#1501 of 1858)
Also, there are several times he HAS shown concern for Ginny- COS, in the Chamber, he was hoping she was still alive (she was), in GOF ( I believe it was) when Ginny out her elbow in the butter ( or was it her pudding?) he was glad no-one had noticed, not to mention the obvious one- in OOTP, Bellatrix Lestrage threatened to torture her, and he stood right in front of her. sounds like he does care about Ginny to me. and i don't think Ginny is going to let herself be kept safe, she will want to be involved.
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peachespig - Jan 31, 2007 2:29 pm (#1502 of 1858)
sstabeler, I agree, when I said Harry didn't show interest in Ginny for many years I meant explicit romantic interest. The points you make are good ones. And it was definitely the butter.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 31, 2007 2:33 pm (#1503 of 1858)
How's this- he was hoping she was alive because she was his best friend Ron's sister and the school, which he considered his home, was about to close. He was glad no one noticed the butter dish incident because it was as embarrassing to him as the valentine was later. And everyone stood in front of Ginny when Bella wanted to torture her. Of course they would. She was the littlest girl. Hary had just got done basically telling her she was too young to be of any use to him, and I think he was right.
As for Dean, I have never doubted that Ginny has potential. Before HBP, when she was becoming her own person and getting over her wasted dream of Harry, as Bonnie Wright put it. That potential WAS just wasted in HBP. With Harry, she's not a very nice person. He isn't either, with her, but that's for another thread. She's nasty to Zach, just for asking questions, to Hermione, who has been her true friend, to Ron, who is her brother, and to Dean, who seemed to really care about her. And Dean has never done anything that does not depict him as friend to Harry.
I think Ginny will want to be involved, too, but if we're lucky, again in my opinion, she'll be her usual headstrong, hotheaded, stubborn, impulsive HBP self, and get killed, quickly.
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peachespig - Jan 31, 2007 3:04 pm (#1504 of 1858)
Well, DZ, I tried to reply extensively to your previous post, but I see you didn't find any of that worth commenting on. Alas!
I can't join you wishing death on Ginny, of course, and fortunately for her I think that's pretty unlikely to come about. But I'm always perplexed by this "Harry and Ginny bring out the worst in each other" thing when I see quite the opposite, and what you said here seems incorrect on the face of it:
With Harry, she's not a very nice person. He isn't either, with her, but that's for another thread. She's nasty to Zach, just for asking questions, to Hermione, who has been her true friend, to Ron, who is her brother, and to Dean, who seemed to really care about her.
Because Ginny's fights with Zacharias, Ron and Hermione all take place before she gets together with Harry. So how can you blame her behavior here on her being with him? I don't even find any of those fights to be awful the way you do, but actually linking them to her being with Harry is just chronologically incorrect.
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journeymom - Jan 31, 2007 5:38 pm (#1505 of 1858)
Die Zimtzicke, please answer:
Why would you inflict this awful person, Ginny, on Neville or Dean, whom you think well of?
This is shear hypocrisy. Honestly, I'm beginning to doubt your sincerity.
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Rosie Lu - Jan 31, 2007 7:31 pm (#1506 of 1858)
Because Ginny's fights with Zacharias, Ron and Hermione all take place before she gets together with Harry.
Exactly. None of those things even take place when she's with Harry. They take place when she's with Dean, so is Dean the one making her do these things? No, I don't think so. Ginny is the way she is because that's the way she is, it has nothing to do with her romantic relationships. I also agree with Ginny in most of those situations, BTW.
I also don't think Ginny's going to die. I think she's going to be part of that "other life" Harry so desperately wants after Voldemort's gone.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 31, 2007 8:51 pm (#1507 of 1858)
I've said a million times that Ginny has potential that is being wasted by Harry wanting to make her the little woman who waits at home that he doesn't have to tell anything to. If she was with a guy who was not so close in temperment to her, she'd probably be fine. That's why I'd like to see her serious about someone else than the guy she's been idol-worshipping and crushing on since she was ten. But everything she has done with other guys so far has been a sham because she never got over Harry. She was taking Hermione's advice and using it to get his attention.
Being with Ginny is not the life for Harry. It's like living someone else's life. And he knows it. He'll never be able to have a normal life. He's going to go from being the boy-who-lived to the man-who-won, if he himself survives, which is no sure thing, either.
I'm not sure if she'll die, but some Weasley probably will. They can't all survive considering how many of them are neck deep in the war effort. Ginny dying would at least be an angsty, interesting plot point.
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journeymom - Jan 31, 2007 9:03 pm (#1508 of 1858)
Harry wants to make her the little woman who waits at home? Support this with canon, please.
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peachespig - Jan 31, 2007 9:26 pm (#1509 of 1858)
DZ said, Being with Ginny is not the life for Harry. It's like living someone else's life. And he knows it. He'll never be able to have a normal life
Wow, what a cruel fate you have in mind for Harry! Even if he survives his battle with Voldemort, and Voldemort is defeated, you think he'll still be unable to do something as simple as have a happy relationship with someone he likes?
I think having a normal life is exactly what he's fighting for; Harry having a normal life is what Lily died for. And I don't think either his fight or her death will be in vain.
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Rosie Lu - Feb 1, 2007 3:51 am (#1510 of 1858)
That's why I'd like to see her serious about someone else than the guy she's been idol-worshipping and crushing on since she was ten.
Ginny no longer sees Harry in the same light she did when she was ten. Jo confirms this in her interview. That's part of the "emotional journey" she had to go on to become Harry's equal. She doesn't hero-worship him.
Being with Ginny is not the life for Harry. It's like living someone else's life. And he knows it. He'll never be able to have a normal life.
Going by the prophecy, Harry can't live a normal life while Voldemort is still alive, and neither can Voldemort ("neither can live while the other survives..."). That's why Harry can't be with Ginny now; he can't fully "live" and be normal while Voldemort's alive. In my opinion, Ginny represents part of the life he'll have after Voldemort's gone, and that's exactly what Jo meant by "someone else's life". She's going to be part of his "other life" after Voldemort, when he'll finally get a chance to live.
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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 1, 2007 4:46 am (#1511 of 1858)
I see Ginny as having started with hero worship, and as she's gotten to know Harry she's also fallen for "just Harry". She accepts and loves both his aspects. Harry, on the other hand, is at a point where he thinks he needs to be either The One or "just Harry", but he can't be both at the same time. He has not yet reconciled these two images of himself. I think he will by the end, and I think it's important for whatever lady he ends up with to understand everything he is.
I agree with Die that Harry not communincating with Ginny is a major problem in the relationship. I just think that Harry will grow, and finally embrace all of what he is, and that will solve the problem.
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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 1, 2007 12:01 pm (#1512 of 1858)
Thanks for the support on communication, Mrs. Brisbee.
He's leaving her out by not telling her ANYTHING, even things he could tell her. I still think if he was not planning on going back to school he should have at least told her that during the breakup- that he wouldn't be there anyway. He seems like he wants her to stay behind and be safe and wait for him to come home the conquering hero or something, and I don't like it. It's so Victorian. He's not giving her enough credit, if she really IS his equal, and I also don't see how it keeps her safe.
I disagree though that Ginny has really gotten to KNOW Harry. When have they ever discussed their pasts, their ambitions, what motivates them, what they want out of life? Never. And he doesn't know her, because he's never asked her how she feels about anything or what's important to her.
Even after Voldemort's gone, Harry will have issues to work through. He doesn't need to just marry and buy a house with a picket fence and have 12 kids. He will be the same as any war vet who has seen people die, and seen tragic waste, and perhaps had to kill others. Anyone here who's lived with one besides me want to talk about what that's like? It's not normalcy. And it takes a long time to work through, and a lot of relationships are ruined by it.
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haymoni - Feb 1, 2007 12:42 pm (#1513 of 1858)
Ginny wasn't exactly shocked by Harry's revelation. I mean, did any of us doubt that Harry would have to go off and face Voldy alone?
Anyone associated with Harry is a target, especially those he loves. He has to go on without her and she understands. She doesn't like it, but she understands.
These kids are still really young and if they go off and get married, their relationship will probably be doomed. But if they are allowed to grow up in a Voldy-Free world, then perhaps they will get the time to have all of those big, important discussions.
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MickeyCee3948 - Feb 1, 2007 12:49 pm (#1514 of 1858)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Aye but why exclude Ginny but allow Ron and Hermoine. They are in just as much danger as Ginny.
I would think he would want Ginny close by so he can insure her protection. Not put that burden on someone else. Everyone knew in HBP that Harry and Ginny were an item. I would figure that someone loyal to Voldemort has probably already told of the relationship.
Mickey
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Steve Newton - Feb 1, 2007 1:06 pm (#1515 of 1858)
Librarian
Dumbledore asked Harry to include Ron and Hermione. They are well known to be his friends and would be targets. His relationship with Ginny is less well known. Still, I think any Weasley, Percy?, would be a target. Poor Hagrid.
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peachespig - Feb 1, 2007 1:28 pm (#1516 of 1858)
MickeyCee said: Aye but why exclude Ginny but allow Ron and Hermoine. They are in just as much danger as Ginny.
Well first of all, Harry did intend originally to go off alone, even without Ron and Hermione.
But besides that, I think it's clear he thinks of Ron and Hermione differently than Ginny. The first two have been through all his dangerous adventures with him, while Ginny hasn't, though she was there for a couple. Ron and Hermione have shared the day-in, day-out ups and downs of friendship, while with Ginny instead he shared a brief but wonderful glimpse of happiness and romance. So I think to him, Ron and Hermione represent his past and present -- and that's all about the struggle against Voldemort. Ginny, instead, is the future to him -- which he's trying (I'm not saying he'll succeed) to keep away from the Voldemort fight.
I do think Harry is trying to deny something that the author will not forget, which is that Ginny has been involved in the struggle against Voldemort -- in book 2 very personally. Harry's intentions are well-meaning, but I'll be very surprised if Ginny sits at home and does nothing for all of book 7; she has a personal stake in the defeat of Voldemort as well.
haymoni said: These kids are still really young and if they go off and get married, their relationship will probably be doomed. But if they are allowed to grow up in a Voldy-Free world, then perhaps they will get the time to have all of those big, important discussions.
In the real world, not many high school relationships last, it's true. But the fact that it's a book series that's just about to end makes me think literary closure will trump real-life probabilities. I do expect the epilogue of DH to go a few years into the future and tell us that the main characters got married, had kids, etc.
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xray - Feb 1, 2007 1:33 pm (#1517 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
I agree with Die that Harry not communincating with Ginny is a major problem in the relationship. I just think that Harry will grow, and finally embrace all of what he is, and that will solve the problem. - Mrs Brisbee
Well, yes and no. I think Jo chose not to show us too many "mushy" details of their relationship on purpose, because really, how many 11 year olds are interested in that sort of reading? One has to assume that it was "normal" in every sense of a typical relationship--that many normal things happened like walks by the lake, sneaking off for snogging sessions and the like--unless of course you don't want it to be.
I disagree though that Ginny has really gotten to KNOW Harry. When have they ever discussed their pasts, their ambitions, what motivates them, what they want out of life? Never. And he doesn't know her, because he's never asked her how she feels about anything or what's important to her. - Die Zimt
And this is important to the story how?
Anyone here who's lived with one besides me want to talk about what that's like? It's not normalcy. And it takes a long time to work through, and a lot of relationships are ruined by it.
My dad is a WWII veteran of the pacific theatre of the war. He was an aircraft mechanic made infantryman, fought in defense of Bataan and Corrigidor, survived the infamous Bataan Death March followed by 3 1/2 years of incarceration in a brutal POW camp in Mukden, China. He, along with many US GIs, was experimented upon by the Japanese with biological warfare, although *snicker* the Japanese were furious because the Americans were imunized against every known disease at the time, so many of their 'subjects' were tainted. (See Unit 731 for more information if you're interested).
My dad suffered a lot but he survived. He did ask, "why me?" but not in the context you might think... he asked "why me?" because he wanted to know why he survived when so many others didn't. What was special about him where he survived when, he thought, stronger, more deserving people, died. After the war he spent a few years travelling the country and "learning about himself." Then he met my mother. They didn't marry until they were in their late 30's but he's lived a very normal life and he said he feels very fortunate to have come back alive.
Harry hasn't really experienced much devastation in comparison. He has the emotional support of his very loyal friends, Ron and Hermione (if only I had friends like that), and the support of many of his classmates (Neville and the DA in particular) he will get through this. It may not be normalcy in the wizarding world but he has everything he needs, Ginny, all the great Weasleys, Hermione, and countless others, to live a "normal" life when it's over. (Although, you could make a point that a celebrity doesn't live a normal life.)
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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 1, 2007 2:14 pm (#1518 of 1858)
My father-in-law is listed by name in a passage of the book "Bloody Tarawa". If anyone wants a great book on the Pacific theatre, I'd advise you to get that one. As to how this relates, I agree with xray, that celebrity life isn't a normal life.
We don't know either, what Harry will still have to go through, and how devastating it will be, and by extension, we don't know who Harry will have left at the end of the war to help him adjust to what he's been through, though, since there are clearly going to be more deaths. We can't even prove at this point that Harry survives.
As for why it is important for Ginny and Harry to get to know each other, that's what I think makes a relationship strong enough to last through the kind of after effects he might well have. If they don't have the firm foundation of knowing each other extremely well, it isn't going to make sense for them to just live happily ever after. Some fans think they know each other perfectly. I didn't see that in the text, and I'd like to. If Harry spent a few years traveling the world getting back in touch with himself like xray's father, and then wanted to look for a serious relationship, that would work better and make more sense, too. But I don't personally think the epilogue can be long enough for Jo to show that, and all of the surviving kids getting married and having kids of their own.
Jo doesn't write the books for eleven year olds anyway. She writes them for herself. In the text it said that Harry and Ginny did not have much time alone. They were busy, her with exams and Harry with detention, or with Ron and Hemrione. Not alone.
Hey, let's talk about Ron and Hermione, too instead of just H/G. I'm 98% sure Ron and Hermione WILL survive!
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sstabeler - Feb 2, 2007 9:09 am (#1519 of 1858)
Die, harry has to survive. why? there are two deaths, and one is early on. either that is Voldemort's death, in which case harry can't be the one who destroys the horcruxes, or it's someone other than Harry. the second death is likely Voldemort's or another DE's death. voldemort's if it isn't early on, and another DE if Voldemortdies early on. unless the epilogue charts Harry's WHOLE remaining life, and ends with harry dying from old age........
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xray - Feb 2, 2007 10:32 am (#1520 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Jo doesn't write the books for eleven year olds anyway. She writes them for herself. - DZ
Erm, she writes them for herself, that is true, but for herself at age 11. She said it's something she would have wanted to read at age 11.
Hey, let's talk about Ron and Hermione, too instead of just H/G.
Sure! I think we're not going to see too much mushy stuff here either. I'm anticipating something like this: Harry catches Ron and Hermione liplocked... they jump, surprised that Harry saw, and Harry says something... "About time, took you two long enough!" Hee!
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peachespig - Feb 2, 2007 10:42 am (#1521 of 1858)
sstabeler, I'm not sure what you mean by there are two deaths, and one is early on. JKR told us at one point that she had decided that two people who she had once planned to live would die, and one who she once planned to die would live. But I don't recall her ever telling us that only two people would die; there could be a dozen other people who she originally planned to die who still die. Did I miss something?
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sstabeler - Feb 2, 2007 10:46 am (#1522 of 1858)
I thought soemwhere she said there were two deaths in DH.
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journeymom - Feb 2, 2007 11:17 am (#1523 of 1858)
peachespig is correct. JKR was saying she planned Book 7 years ago and on finally writing it she gave one person a reprieve and she killed two others that didn't die in her origional plan. She wasn't referring to the total number of people who die, just that she'd made some changes.
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MickeyCee3948 - Feb 2, 2007 11:17 am (#1524 of 1858)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
She said 2 of our characters die! No mention of which ones. It being quoted in all of the papers today. About the release date, the fact that the book is already #1 on the Best Seller List and has exceeded HBP sales already.
Mickey
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haymoni - Feb 2, 2007 11:23 am (#1525 of 1858)
xray - I'm pretty certain that Jo has said several times that she did not write this book as a children's book. It just happens to be about a child. I think she WOULD have liked this book at age 11. I would have also, but at that age, I read everything I could get my hands on...Even stuff I should NEVER have been reading!
sstabler - her quote is a bit vague on that topic. She said that as she was writing Book 7, 2 more people would die and 1 person got a reprieve. So does that mean that only 2 people die in Book 7? Or does that mean originally she meant for, say, 3 people to die and now there are going to be 5? Only Jo knows!
And now her editors, I guess!
Now...how to get this ship back on topic...
Do we have any canon other than the fact that Madam Pince was standing next to Filch at Dumbledore's funeral that they are a couple?
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journeymom - Feb 2, 2007 11:51 am (#1526 of 1858)
That's all I know for sure. But didn't Harry notice it and shudder at the thought of Filch and Pince together? Or is that just us?
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peachespig - Feb 2, 2007 12:00 pm (#1527 of 1858)
haymoni, I wouldn't take that to mean she totally ignores that fact that a lot of her audience is made of kids. I always took it to mean that she has different ideas about what is appropriate for "a children's book" than some people. And while she will include death, and humorous romance, she won't include (say) drug addiction or teen pregnancy, which she specifically mentioned once as not appearing:
"Rowling added that she would never tackle issues such as drugs or teen-age pregnancies in a children's book."
So I think she is definitely thinking about what's appropriate for her audience.
To answer your on-topic question -- I think the only other mention of Filch/Pince we have is Harry jokingingly suggesting to Hermione that he "always thought there might be something between them." I doubt he was serious, which is why the implication is amusing...
While I'm linking, here's a quote of JKR's from before OotP (2001) that I think might be interesting for our discussion of whether Harry will be able to pursue a romance after book 7:
I want Harry Potter and his friends to grow up as well as older, though I'll keep it all humorous, well within the tone of the books. I want them eventually to be truly 17 and discover girlfriends and boyfriends and have sexual feelings - nothing too gritty. Why not allow them to have those feelings?
I get two things from this. One, again, she has an idea of "the tone of the books" and tries to stay within that; and two, that she thinks that things like growing up and romance should be treated "humorously" and as "not too gritty." This seems perfectly in keeping with how she wrote HBP years later, and goes along with my expectation that the romances will end happily rather than full of angst.
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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 2, 2007 6:25 pm (#1528 of 1858)
Jo's comments on children's books that I had handy:
When I'm writing, I don't aim for any - any age group. I write these books entirely for myself. And in fact, before - before my British publisher Bloomsbury told me that they were going to market the books as for 9 year olds and above, I really had no idea. A vague idea, obviously. I mean, I was aware they weren't for 3 year olds, and I knew that probably 19 year olds would be wanting to read other stuff, although I've met quite a few 19 year olds since, so that's - that's a really nice thing. The optimum age, I'd definitely say is 9+ for these books.
Well, it's an interesting point, because... I never saw them as, you know, exclusively *for* children, ever. As I said, I was 30 when I finished book 1. I'm now 34. I'm still writing what I know I'd like to read now. But I am aware that I would have liked to have read it when I was much younger. It depends what Marty means. I mean, certainly the sense of humour is mine. It's not what I think kids find funny, it's what I find funny. So, yes, I'm writing for anyone who wants to read the books - anyone at all. I hope that answers the question.
Diane Rhem show 1999
What I find interesting is that people call me a children's writer. When I started writing I had never thought of writing for children
Movie Magic Magazine, May, 2004
Now what that means for shipping, I don't know. I still think she can do anything she wants, any way she wants, and that there is going to be a twist someplace. Since she has been more firm about R/Hr, I think the twist has to come someplace else, and the most likely place as I see it is with the H/G. Either Harry dies, or Ginny dies, or they wind up going in different directions. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
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peachespig - Feb 2, 2007 7:57 pm (#1529 of 1858)
Interesting quotes. See, something like
Bloomsbury told me that they were going to market the books as for 9 year olds and above, I really had no idea. A vague idea, obviously. I mean, I was aware they weren't for 3 year olds, and I knew that probably 19 year olds would be wanting to read other stuff
that sounds to me like she knew it would be marketed to ages somewhere between 3 and 19, she just didn't know it was going to be 9+. And the "a vague idea, obviously" indicates she wasn't oblivious to the fact that mostly children would read it.
The second quote sounds like she's trying not to be limited to being a "children's book author" -- and I think we'll all agree that there are adults who can appreciate the books.
But what I get from the quotes that I listed is that although she doesn't feel that she is exclusively writing for children, she is nonetheless aware that they are much of her audience, and she's being faithful to a "tone of the books" that's compatible with them, and that keeps romance from getting too gritty. She's come right out and said there are some things she would never do because she's being faithful to that tone.
As for "twists"... I'm sure there will be twists and turns regarding how Harry and Ginny are apart and wondering if they will get back together, but I can't see her setting things up the way she did in HBP without them ending up together, even putting "ideal girl" quotes aside. Even plot twists are constrained to fit organically within what's come before.
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Honour - Feb 2, 2007 9:59 pm (#1530 of 1858)
Actually Die Z I like your take on the plot twist. It would be more of an impact if it is Harry and Ginny who do not wind up together, rather than Hermione and Ron (a coupling of which I also have issues with - nevertheless, my issues, my problem! By gosh! that would make interesting reading indeed! We are all aware that JKR has deemed it so that Harry and Ginny be a pair - I haven't come across cannon yet (maybe someone can find it if it exists?), which states JKR saying that Harry and Ginny will be a pair, in the end, when all is done?
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Sunny Baudelaire - Feb 3, 2007 11:18 pm (#1531 of 1858)
In the debate over whether or not Jo considers herself a children's book author, the most recent quote of all has yet to be brought up.
Written by Jo, herself, on her own web site in the rubbish bin under the headline "Pure Garbage":
Headline "Rowling is 'riled' by being seen as a children's book author."
Rowling's response: "Absolute Garbage! I have said many times that if I remain a children's author forever (which I may well do) I will never see this as being a lesser, easier or less 'serious' career as writing for adults. Whenever I have discussed the possibility of writing adult fiction, it has nearly always been because an interviewer has asked 'might you one day write a book for adults'."
So, not only did she call herself a "children's book author", she says she may even remain one forever. And this was her own site, written by her. No Rita Skeeter Quick Quotes Quill was at work!
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frogface - Feb 4, 2007 7:43 am (#1532 of 1858)
I believe she also said that her first book after Harry Potter, will be aimed at young children.
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sstabeler - Feb 4, 2007 9:03 am (#1533 of 1858)
personally, i can't see any of the Trio dying, nor Ginny. I'm not saying they might end up in danger of losing their life, but everything tends to return to pretty much normalcy after most of the books, which makes me think in the end, the main 4 characters will survive. even in OOTP, they were still together in the end. it was only in HBP, which to me seems as if it ended in the spring term, where they didn't.
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Thom Matheson - Feb 4, 2007 11:54 am (#1534 of 1858)
They'll grab Luna and Neville and start a commune of DA at #12.
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peachespig - Feb 4, 2007 4:42 pm (#1535 of 1858)
Sunny B, good catch with Jo's web page quote!
I've been looking through some of her interviews and there's no question she knew and knows she's writing "a children's book." I even found the text of the original letter she sent while looking for an agent in 1994:
"I enclose a synopsis and sample chapters of a book intended for children aged 9-12. I would be very grateful if you would tell me if you would be interested in seeing the full manuscript. Yours sincerely, Joanne Rowling"
So she's known from the very beginning -- before she had an agent, much less a publisher! -- that she was writing a children's book. (And anyway, how could she not have known?)
So, how to reconcile this with her other statements that she was not writing for children? I think this quote kind of explains it:
...I'd been writing for adults before and the manuscripts were never publishable. Then, I write what I think is a child's story-although really I wrote it for me, primarily for me. In fact, when I first started writing, I think I was thinking too much about the children who would read it. So, I thought, okay, just write it for yourself. And that was the right decision, because then, as a writer, you can't talk down to your audience...
So she knows it's "a child's story," and says so. But at the same time, she finds she can avoid talking down to the children, and she can write a better book, if she doesn't worry too much about what a children's book is "supposed to be". It's a useful mental trick to write the best book she can.
So anyway, getting back towards shipping, I do think she's stated clearly that there are limits to what she'd put in these books. Here's the actual quote I was alluding to before, from the "Connection" radio interview:
Now if I get the tone right, I do believe that your nine-year-old will still be interested in a fourteen-year-old Harry - obviously it is inappropriate in books like these - it would be totally alien to the tone of these books if we - if I got into - erm - too - too - grittily realistic an area that, you know - we're - we're not going to be looking at teenage pregnancy here, we're not going to be looking at drug-taking here, you know, this would be totally alien to the spirit of these books. However, I do want Harry to grow up in a realistic way ...
So although we can haggle about exactly what she would or wouldn't do, I would say this establishes conclusively that she won't do just anything: she considers there to be limits, in keeping with "the spirit" of the books, beyond which she can't in good faith go. My belief that the shipping situation will end up happy, not angsty or grim, comes from my perception of what she thinks this spirit is.
In particular, although there are some scary and unhappy things in the series (and no doubt more to come), it's been my observation that the parts of the plot focusing on growing up, the "normal teenager" part that everyone can identify with -- as opposed to the fight against evil part -- are more humorous and much less dark. I think shipping falls into this category. And I think Jo thinks so too:
I want Harry Potter and his friends to grow up as well as older, though I'll keep it all humorous, well within the tone of the books. I want them eventually to be truly 17 and discover girlfriends and boyfriends and have sexual feelings - nothing too gritty. Why not allow them to have those feelings?
I mentioned that one already, but I think it completes my thought process: her perception of the spirit of her books is that things like "growing up" and "romance" should be kept humorous and not gritty.
Sorry for the length, but I think this explains why I think the kids' romances, H/G and R/Hr in particular, will end happily, despite any other sad things that very likely will occur in Deathly Hallows.
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The One - Feb 5, 2007 1:01 pm (#1536 of 1858)
Open minded sceptic
Well, she seeems to say that sex is out of the question. A bit f snogging is as far as she will go in that department.
But the kids needs to learn that hormons will often lead you astray. We have seen it already, as in his crush on Cho preventing him from taking advice from Cederic, Hermione's fake date with Macglaggen, Ron hurting Lavender by entering a relationship he did not really have his heart in etc.
I do not at all see that the books being kids books prevents the Harry/Ginny or Ron Hermione relationship ending in nothing, or even in disaster.
We see a lot of violence and betrayal in the books already. Adding a betrayal caused by jealopsy for instance, may or may not happen, but I do not at all see that the children audiance prevents it.
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The One - Feb 5, 2007 2:05 pm (#1537 of 1858)
Open minded sceptic
I just wanted to add:
I am re-reading HBP now. I have just read the story about Merope Gaunt, who fell in love with a man not interested in her at all, tricked him magically, ran away from her family who found the guy as uaceptable as his folks found her, was later deserted by her husband, and ended up giving up her life in poverty, leaving a son behind to grow up in an orphanage.
Doesn't seem to me that Jo consider unhappy love stories unsuitable for her readers.
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peachespig - Feb 5, 2007 2:38 pm (#1538 of 1858)
The One said: I have just read the story about Merope Gaunt... Doesn't seem to me that Jo consider unhappy love stories unsuitable for her readers.
Yes, but the Jo quotes I supplied earlier were about "Harry Potter and his friends" growing up -- that was what I was talking about and that was what she said she would keep humorous. The main teenaged characters, who are the ones most readers are intended to identify with. Indeed, she seems perfectly willing to tell a much more sinister story for Riddle's mother. But I don't think she would ever have Hermione, for example, go through that kind of plot arc -- I think that's exactly what she means by "too gritty".
In fact, there is a parallel character at Hogwarts to Merope, in the sense of someone trying to get their way via a love potion -- Romilda. But notice how her story, in contrast to Merope's, is made humorous and light; we're not supposed to think Romilda is truly nasty, just amusing.
So the dire circumstance of Voldemort's birth -- a creepy aspect of the main dramatic plot -- is echoed in the growing-up plot in a much more amusing way. It's the growing-up plot developments that I expect to stay on the light side of things.
We see a lot of violence and betrayal in the books already. Adding a betrayal caused by jealopsy for instance, may or may not happen, but I do not at all see that the children audiance prevents it.
So it's not that I can't see any betrayal caused by jealousy anywhere in the story -- it's that I can't see it among Harry and his friends. I think that really would violate her criterion to keep their romances "humorous".
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sstabeler - Feb 5, 2007 2:42 pm (#1539 of 1858)
I think Romilda is supposed to be similar, but for a different reason. Romilda wanted to go to Slughorn's party with harry, while Merope always had marriage on her mind. there's a difference, as one is more permanent in effect.
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frogface - Feb 6, 2007 4:34 am (#1540 of 1858)
I think thats exactly the point Peachespig is trying to make Sstabeler. Even though it is absolutely necessary to have dark and gritty things happen in the book, that doesn't at all mean that dark and gritty will be the reflection of the relationships between H/G and R/H. It seems that JKR has said that she will keep the romances of the principle characters humourous and light. And that suggests to me that although there may be bumps in the road (H/R has been an EXTREMELY bumpy road!) ultimately it looks as though they will end up happy together.
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sstabeler - Feb 9, 2007 11:29 am (#1541 of 1858)
Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 9, 2007 10:31 am
I agree. I can see them all being happy together, although maybe not for ALL characters, as I think she could justify Draco's only love being killed, given he is so horrible. But for the main characters, I think there will be no deaths getting in the way. As an aside, given the Weasleys seem to have a lot of children, and Potters only one, judging by the pattern of James and Harry being only childs, I wonder how that will play out in regards to children. Or maybe it'll mean a medium number of children, not a massive number.
-Edited to fix some problems with capitalization.- SE Jones
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xray - Feb 9, 2007 2:38 pm (#1542 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
I don't know, Sstabeler. Usually an only child desires siblings. I've seen very large families result from parents where one was an only child and the other came from a large family. I might expect a Harry/Ginny union to result in at least 5 children, perhaps with as many as 10.
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journeymom - Feb 9, 2007 6:08 pm (#1543 of 1858)
Well, it take two to tango. Ginny is seven of seven. She might not want a bunch of kids. But the pattern does seem to have a grain of truth. My grandmother was an only and proceeded to have nine children. My husband is the oldest of seven and would have been perfectly happy to have no children. I guess two kids was a nice compromise!
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xray - Feb 17, 2007 12:49 am (#1544 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
I just had a fun thought... what would Vernon and Petunia say if Dudley started dating Luna Lovegood?!
I now ship Luna/Dudley !!!
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xray - Feb 17, 2007 9:45 am (#1545 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
I thought about this some more... wouldn't it be so fun to see Luna and Dudley date? Imagine Dudley starting to get out of hand and Luna nonchalantly hinting at a hex to keep him in check. Luna's so laid back and out there and Dudley is controlling but afraid of magic. He might try to take charge and Luna would go along with him up to a point. They'd make such a perfect couple, don't you think?
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haymoni - Feb 17, 2007 10:00 am (#1546 of 1858)
I think Dudley would be more terrified of Luna than Neville is.
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Soul Search - Feb 17, 2007 6:41 pm (#1547 of 1858)
Luna is too nice to have anything to do with Dudley.
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Luna Logic - Feb 18, 2007 2:54 am (#1548 of 1858)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Dudley is specialised in bullying Luna's like children (and many others).
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Sunny Baudelaire - Feb 18, 2007 3:01 pm (#1549 of 1858)
xray - THAT was funny! What would you call your ship? The Looney Lumps?
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peachespig - Feb 18, 2007 4:26 pm (#1550 of 1858)
"Dudgood".
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Also, there are several times he HAS shown concern for Ginny- COS, in the Chamber, he was hoping she was still alive (she was), in GOF ( I believe it was) when Ginny out her elbow in the butter ( or was it her pudding?) he was glad no-one had noticed, not to mention the obvious one- in OOTP, Bellatrix Lestrage threatened to torture her, and he stood right in front of her. sounds like he does care about Ginny to me. and i don't think Ginny is going to let herself be kept safe, she will want to be involved.
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peachespig - Jan 31, 2007 2:29 pm (#1502 of 1858)
sstabeler, I agree, when I said Harry didn't show interest in Ginny for many years I meant explicit romantic interest. The points you make are good ones. And it was definitely the butter.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 31, 2007 2:33 pm (#1503 of 1858)
How's this- he was hoping she was alive because she was his best friend Ron's sister and the school, which he considered his home, was about to close. He was glad no one noticed the butter dish incident because it was as embarrassing to him as the valentine was later. And everyone stood in front of Ginny when Bella wanted to torture her. Of course they would. She was the littlest girl. Hary had just got done basically telling her she was too young to be of any use to him, and I think he was right.
As for Dean, I have never doubted that Ginny has potential. Before HBP, when she was becoming her own person and getting over her wasted dream of Harry, as Bonnie Wright put it. That potential WAS just wasted in HBP. With Harry, she's not a very nice person. He isn't either, with her, but that's for another thread. She's nasty to Zach, just for asking questions, to Hermione, who has been her true friend, to Ron, who is her brother, and to Dean, who seemed to really care about her. And Dean has never done anything that does not depict him as friend to Harry.
I think Ginny will want to be involved, too, but if we're lucky, again in my opinion, she'll be her usual headstrong, hotheaded, stubborn, impulsive HBP self, and get killed, quickly.
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peachespig - Jan 31, 2007 3:04 pm (#1504 of 1858)
Well, DZ, I tried to reply extensively to your previous post, but I see you didn't find any of that worth commenting on. Alas!
I can't join you wishing death on Ginny, of course, and fortunately for her I think that's pretty unlikely to come about. But I'm always perplexed by this "Harry and Ginny bring out the worst in each other" thing when I see quite the opposite, and what you said here seems incorrect on the face of it:
With Harry, she's not a very nice person. He isn't either, with her, but that's for another thread. She's nasty to Zach, just for asking questions, to Hermione, who has been her true friend, to Ron, who is her brother, and to Dean, who seemed to really care about her.
Because Ginny's fights with Zacharias, Ron and Hermione all take place before she gets together with Harry. So how can you blame her behavior here on her being with him? I don't even find any of those fights to be awful the way you do, but actually linking them to her being with Harry is just chronologically incorrect.
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journeymom - Jan 31, 2007 5:38 pm (#1505 of 1858)
Die Zimtzicke, please answer:
Why would you inflict this awful person, Ginny, on Neville or Dean, whom you think well of?
This is shear hypocrisy. Honestly, I'm beginning to doubt your sincerity.
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Rosie Lu - Jan 31, 2007 7:31 pm (#1506 of 1858)
Because Ginny's fights with Zacharias, Ron and Hermione all take place before she gets together with Harry.
Exactly. None of those things even take place when she's with Harry. They take place when she's with Dean, so is Dean the one making her do these things? No, I don't think so. Ginny is the way she is because that's the way she is, it has nothing to do with her romantic relationships. I also agree with Ginny in most of those situations, BTW.
I also don't think Ginny's going to die. I think she's going to be part of that "other life" Harry so desperately wants after Voldemort's gone.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jan 31, 2007 8:51 pm (#1507 of 1858)
I've said a million times that Ginny has potential that is being wasted by Harry wanting to make her the little woman who waits at home that he doesn't have to tell anything to. If she was with a guy who was not so close in temperment to her, she'd probably be fine. That's why I'd like to see her serious about someone else than the guy she's been idol-worshipping and crushing on since she was ten. But everything she has done with other guys so far has been a sham because she never got over Harry. She was taking Hermione's advice and using it to get his attention.
Being with Ginny is not the life for Harry. It's like living someone else's life. And he knows it. He'll never be able to have a normal life. He's going to go from being the boy-who-lived to the man-who-won, if he himself survives, which is no sure thing, either.
I'm not sure if she'll die, but some Weasley probably will. They can't all survive considering how many of them are neck deep in the war effort. Ginny dying would at least be an angsty, interesting plot point.
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journeymom - Jan 31, 2007 9:03 pm (#1508 of 1858)
Harry wants to make her the little woman who waits at home? Support this with canon, please.
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peachespig - Jan 31, 2007 9:26 pm (#1509 of 1858)
DZ said, Being with Ginny is not the life for Harry. It's like living someone else's life. And he knows it. He'll never be able to have a normal life
Wow, what a cruel fate you have in mind for Harry! Even if he survives his battle with Voldemort, and Voldemort is defeated, you think he'll still be unable to do something as simple as have a happy relationship with someone he likes?
I think having a normal life is exactly what he's fighting for; Harry having a normal life is what Lily died for. And I don't think either his fight or her death will be in vain.
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Rosie Lu - Feb 1, 2007 3:51 am (#1510 of 1858)
That's why I'd like to see her serious about someone else than the guy she's been idol-worshipping and crushing on since she was ten.
Ginny no longer sees Harry in the same light she did when she was ten. Jo confirms this in her interview. That's part of the "emotional journey" she had to go on to become Harry's equal. She doesn't hero-worship him.
Being with Ginny is not the life for Harry. It's like living someone else's life. And he knows it. He'll never be able to have a normal life.
Going by the prophecy, Harry can't live a normal life while Voldemort is still alive, and neither can Voldemort ("neither can live while the other survives..."). That's why Harry can't be with Ginny now; he can't fully "live" and be normal while Voldemort's alive. In my opinion, Ginny represents part of the life he'll have after Voldemort's gone, and that's exactly what Jo meant by "someone else's life". She's going to be part of his "other life" after Voldemort, when he'll finally get a chance to live.
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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 1, 2007 4:46 am (#1511 of 1858)
I see Ginny as having started with hero worship, and as she's gotten to know Harry she's also fallen for "just Harry". She accepts and loves both his aspects. Harry, on the other hand, is at a point where he thinks he needs to be either The One or "just Harry", but he can't be both at the same time. He has not yet reconciled these two images of himself. I think he will by the end, and I think it's important for whatever lady he ends up with to understand everything he is.
I agree with Die that Harry not communincating with Ginny is a major problem in the relationship. I just think that Harry will grow, and finally embrace all of what he is, and that will solve the problem.
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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 1, 2007 12:01 pm (#1512 of 1858)
Thanks for the support on communication, Mrs. Brisbee.
He's leaving her out by not telling her ANYTHING, even things he could tell her. I still think if he was not planning on going back to school he should have at least told her that during the breakup- that he wouldn't be there anyway. He seems like he wants her to stay behind and be safe and wait for him to come home the conquering hero or something, and I don't like it. It's so Victorian. He's not giving her enough credit, if she really IS his equal, and I also don't see how it keeps her safe.
I disagree though that Ginny has really gotten to KNOW Harry. When have they ever discussed their pasts, their ambitions, what motivates them, what they want out of life? Never. And he doesn't know her, because he's never asked her how she feels about anything or what's important to her.
Even after Voldemort's gone, Harry will have issues to work through. He doesn't need to just marry and buy a house with a picket fence and have 12 kids. He will be the same as any war vet who has seen people die, and seen tragic waste, and perhaps had to kill others. Anyone here who's lived with one besides me want to talk about what that's like? It's not normalcy. And it takes a long time to work through, and a lot of relationships are ruined by it.
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haymoni - Feb 1, 2007 12:42 pm (#1513 of 1858)
Ginny wasn't exactly shocked by Harry's revelation. I mean, did any of us doubt that Harry would have to go off and face Voldy alone?
Anyone associated with Harry is a target, especially those he loves. He has to go on without her and she understands. She doesn't like it, but she understands.
These kids are still really young and if they go off and get married, their relationship will probably be doomed. But if they are allowed to grow up in a Voldy-Free world, then perhaps they will get the time to have all of those big, important discussions.
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MickeyCee3948 - Feb 1, 2007 12:49 pm (#1514 of 1858)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Aye but why exclude Ginny but allow Ron and Hermoine. They are in just as much danger as Ginny.
I would think he would want Ginny close by so he can insure her protection. Not put that burden on someone else. Everyone knew in HBP that Harry and Ginny were an item. I would figure that someone loyal to Voldemort has probably already told of the relationship.
Mickey
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Steve Newton - Feb 1, 2007 1:06 pm (#1515 of 1858)
Librarian
Dumbledore asked Harry to include Ron and Hermione. They are well known to be his friends and would be targets. His relationship with Ginny is less well known. Still, I think any Weasley, Percy?, would be a target. Poor Hagrid.
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peachespig - Feb 1, 2007 1:28 pm (#1516 of 1858)
MickeyCee said: Aye but why exclude Ginny but allow Ron and Hermoine. They are in just as much danger as Ginny.
Well first of all, Harry did intend originally to go off alone, even without Ron and Hermione.
But besides that, I think it's clear he thinks of Ron and Hermione differently than Ginny. The first two have been through all his dangerous adventures with him, while Ginny hasn't, though she was there for a couple. Ron and Hermione have shared the day-in, day-out ups and downs of friendship, while with Ginny instead he shared a brief but wonderful glimpse of happiness and romance. So I think to him, Ron and Hermione represent his past and present -- and that's all about the struggle against Voldemort. Ginny, instead, is the future to him -- which he's trying (I'm not saying he'll succeed) to keep away from the Voldemort fight.
I do think Harry is trying to deny something that the author will not forget, which is that Ginny has been involved in the struggle against Voldemort -- in book 2 very personally. Harry's intentions are well-meaning, but I'll be very surprised if Ginny sits at home and does nothing for all of book 7; she has a personal stake in the defeat of Voldemort as well.
haymoni said: These kids are still really young and if they go off and get married, their relationship will probably be doomed. But if they are allowed to grow up in a Voldy-Free world, then perhaps they will get the time to have all of those big, important discussions.
In the real world, not many high school relationships last, it's true. But the fact that it's a book series that's just about to end makes me think literary closure will trump real-life probabilities.
I do expect the epilogue of DH to go a few years into the future and tell us that the main characters got married, had kids, etc. - - - - - - - - - -
xray - Feb 1, 2007 1:33 pm (#1517 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
I agree with Die that Harry not communincating with Ginny is a major problem in the relationship. I just think that Harry will grow, and finally embrace all of what he is, and that will solve the problem. - Mrs Brisbee
Well, yes and no. I think Jo chose not to show us too many "mushy" details of their relationship on purpose, because really, how many 11 year olds are interested in that sort of reading? One has to assume that it was "normal" in every sense of a typical relationship--that many normal things happened like walks by the lake, sneaking off for snogging sessions and the like--unless of course you don't want it to be.
I disagree though that Ginny has really gotten to KNOW Harry. When have they ever discussed their pasts, their ambitions, what motivates them, what they want out of life? Never. And he doesn't know her, because he's never asked her how she feels about anything or what's important to her. - Die Zimt
And this is important to the story how?
Anyone here who's lived with one besides me want to talk about what that's like? It's not normalcy. And it takes a long time to work through, and a lot of relationships are ruined by it.
My dad is a WWII veteran of the pacific theatre of the war. He was an aircraft mechanic made infantryman, fought in defense of Bataan and Corrigidor, survived the infamous Bataan Death March followed by 3 1/2 years of incarceration in a brutal POW camp in Mukden, China. He, along with many US GIs, was experimented upon by the Japanese with biological warfare, although *snicker* the Japanese were furious because the Americans were imunized against every known disease at the time, so many of their 'subjects' were tainted. (See Unit 731 for more information if you're interested).
My dad suffered a lot but he survived. He did ask, "why me?" but not in the context you might think... he asked "why me?" because he wanted to know why he survived when so many others didn't. What was special about him where he survived when, he thought, stronger, more deserving people, died. After the war he spent a few years travelling the country and "learning about himself." Then he met my mother. They didn't marry until they were in their late 30's but he's lived a very normal life and he said he feels very fortunate to have come back alive.
Harry hasn't really experienced much devastation in comparison. He has the emotional support of his very loyal friends, Ron and Hermione (if only I had friends like that), and the support of many of his classmates (Neville and the DA in particular) he will get through this. It may not be normalcy in the wizarding world but he has everything he needs, Ginny, all the great Weasleys, Hermione, and countless others, to live a "normal" life when it's over. (Although, you could make a point that a celebrity doesn't live a normal life.)
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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 1, 2007 2:14 pm (#1518 of 1858)
My father-in-law is listed by name in a passage of the book "Bloody Tarawa". If anyone wants a great book on the Pacific theatre, I'd advise you to get that one. As to how this relates, I agree with xray, that celebrity life isn't a normal life.
We don't know either, what Harry will still have to go through, and how devastating it will be, and by extension, we don't know who Harry will have left at the end of the war to help him adjust to what he's been through, though, since there are clearly going to be more deaths. We can't even prove at this point that Harry survives.
As for why it is important for Ginny and Harry to get to know each other, that's what I think makes a relationship strong enough to last through the kind of after effects he might well have. If they don't have the firm foundation of knowing each other extremely well, it isn't going to make sense for them to just live happily ever after. Some fans think they know each other perfectly. I didn't see that in the text, and I'd like to. If Harry spent a few years traveling the world getting back in touch with himself like xray's father, and then wanted to look for a serious relationship, that would work better and make more sense, too. But I don't personally think the epilogue can be long enough for Jo to show that, and all of the surviving kids getting married and having kids of their own.
Jo doesn't write the books for eleven year olds anyway. She writes them for herself. In the text it said that Harry and Ginny did not have much time alone. They were busy, her with exams and Harry with detention, or with Ron and Hemrione. Not alone.
Hey, let's talk about Ron and Hermione, too instead of just H/G. I'm 98% sure Ron and Hermione WILL survive!
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sstabeler - Feb 2, 2007 9:09 am (#1519 of 1858)
Die, harry has to survive. why? there are two deaths, and one is early on. either that is Voldemort's death, in which case harry can't be the one who destroys the horcruxes, or it's someone other than Harry. the second death is likely Voldemort's or another DE's death. voldemort's if it isn't early on, and another DE if Voldemortdies early on. unless the epilogue charts Harry's WHOLE remaining life, and ends with harry dying from old age........
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xray - Feb 2, 2007 10:32 am (#1520 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Jo doesn't write the books for eleven year olds anyway. She writes them for herself. - DZ
Erm, she writes them for herself, that is true, but for herself at age 11. She said it's something she would have wanted to read at age 11.
Hey, let's talk about Ron and Hermione, too instead of just H/G.
Sure! I think we're not going to see too much mushy stuff here either. I'm anticipating something like this: Harry catches Ron and Hermione liplocked... they jump, surprised that Harry saw, and Harry says something... "About time, took you two long enough!" Hee!
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peachespig - Feb 2, 2007 10:42 am (#1521 of 1858)
sstabeler, I'm not sure what you mean by there are two deaths, and one is early on. JKR told us at one point that she had decided that two people who she had once planned to live would die, and one who she once planned to die would live. But I don't recall her ever telling us that only two people would die; there could be a dozen other people who she originally planned to die who still die. Did I miss something?
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sstabeler - Feb 2, 2007 10:46 am (#1522 of 1858)
I thought soemwhere she said there were two deaths in DH.
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journeymom - Feb 2, 2007 11:17 am (#1523 of 1858)
peachespig is correct. JKR was saying she planned Book 7 years ago and on finally writing it she gave one person a reprieve and she killed two others that didn't die in her origional plan. She wasn't referring to the total number of people who die, just that she'd made some changes.
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MickeyCee3948 - Feb 2, 2007 11:17 am (#1524 of 1858)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
She said 2 of our characters die! No mention of which ones. It being quoted in all of the papers today. About the release date, the fact that the book is already #1 on the Best Seller List and has exceeded HBP sales already.
Mickey
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haymoni - Feb 2, 2007 11:23 am (#1525 of 1858)
xray - I'm pretty certain that Jo has said several times that she did not write this book as a children's book. It just happens to be about a child. I think she WOULD have liked this book at age 11. I would have also, but at that age, I read everything I could get my hands on...Even stuff I should NEVER have been reading!
sstabler - her quote is a bit vague on that topic. She said that as she was writing Book 7, 2 more people would die and 1 person got a reprieve. So does that mean that only 2 people die in Book 7? Or does that mean originally she meant for, say, 3 people to die and now there are going to be 5? Only Jo knows!
And now her editors, I guess!
Now...how to get this ship back on topic...
Do we have any canon other than the fact that Madam Pince was standing next to Filch at Dumbledore's funeral that they are a couple?
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journeymom - Feb 2, 2007 11:51 am (#1526 of 1858)
That's all I know for sure. But didn't Harry notice it and shudder at the thought of Filch and Pince together? Or is that just us?
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peachespig - Feb 2, 2007 12:00 pm (#1527 of 1858)
haymoni, I wouldn't take that to mean she totally ignores that fact that a lot of her audience is made of kids. I always took it to mean that she has different ideas about what is appropriate for "a children's book" than some people. And while she will include death, and humorous romance, she won't include (say) drug addiction or teen pregnancy, which she specifically mentioned once as not appearing:
"Rowling added that she would never tackle issues such as drugs or teen-age pregnancies in a children's book."
So I think she is definitely thinking about what's appropriate for her audience.
To answer your on-topic question -- I think the only other mention of Filch/Pince we have is Harry jokingingly suggesting to Hermione that he "always thought there might be something between them." I doubt he was serious, which is why the implication is amusing...
While I'm linking, here's a quote of JKR's from before OotP (2001) that I think might be interesting for our discussion of whether Harry will be able to pursue a romance after book 7:
I want Harry Potter and his friends to grow up as well as older, though I'll keep it all humorous, well within the tone of the books. I want them eventually to be truly 17 and discover girlfriends and boyfriends and have sexual feelings - nothing too gritty. Why not allow them to have those feelings?
I get two things from this. One, again, she has an idea of "the tone of the books" and tries to stay within that; and two, that she thinks that things like growing up and romance should be treated "humorously" and as "not too gritty." This seems perfectly in keeping with how she wrote HBP years later, and goes along with my expectation that the romances will end happily rather than full of angst.
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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 2, 2007 6:25 pm (#1528 of 1858)
Jo's comments on children's books that I had handy:
When I'm writing, I don't aim for any - any age group. I write these books entirely for myself. And in fact, before - before my British publisher Bloomsbury told me that they were going to market the books as for 9 year olds and above, I really had no idea. A vague idea, obviously. I mean, I was aware they weren't for 3 year olds, and I knew that probably 19 year olds would be wanting to read other stuff, although I've met quite a few 19 year olds since, so that's - that's a really nice thing. The optimum age, I'd definitely say is 9+ for these books.
Well, it's an interesting point, because... I never saw them as, you know, exclusively *for* children, ever. As I said, I was 30 when I finished book 1. I'm now 34. I'm still writing what I know I'd like to read now. But I am aware that I would have liked to have read it when I was much younger. It depends what Marty means. I mean, certainly the sense of humour is mine. It's not what I think kids find funny, it's what I find funny. So, yes, I'm writing for anyone who wants to read the books - anyone at all. I hope that answers the question.
Diane Rhem show 1999
What I find interesting is that people call me a children's writer. When I started writing I had never thought of writing for children
Movie Magic Magazine, May, 2004
Now what that means for shipping, I don't know. I still think she can do anything she wants, any way she wants, and that there is going to be a twist someplace. Since she has been more firm about R/Hr, I think the twist has to come someplace else, and the most likely place as I see it is with the H/G. Either Harry dies, or Ginny dies, or they wind up going in different directions. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
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peachespig - Feb 2, 2007 7:57 pm (#1529 of 1858)
Interesting quotes. See, something like
Bloomsbury told me that they were going to market the books as for 9 year olds and above, I really had no idea. A vague idea, obviously. I mean, I was aware they weren't for 3 year olds, and I knew that probably 19 year olds would be wanting to read other stuff
that sounds to me like she knew it would be marketed to ages somewhere between 3 and 19, she just didn't know it was going to be 9+. And the "a vague idea, obviously" indicates she wasn't oblivious to the fact that mostly children would read it.
The second quote sounds like she's trying not to be limited to being a "children's book author" -- and I think we'll all agree that there are adults who can appreciate the books.
But what I get from the quotes that I listed is that although she doesn't feel that she is exclusively writing for children, she is nonetheless aware that they are much of her audience, and she's being faithful to a "tone of the books" that's compatible with them, and that keeps romance from getting too gritty. She's come right out and said there are some things she would never do because she's being faithful to that tone.
As for "twists"... I'm sure there will be twists and turns regarding how Harry and Ginny are apart and wondering if they will get back together, but I can't see her setting things up the way she did in HBP without them ending up together, even putting "ideal girl" quotes aside. Even plot twists are constrained to fit organically within what's come before.
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Honour - Feb 2, 2007 9:59 pm (#1530 of 1858)
Actually Die Z I like your take on the plot twist. It would be more of an impact if it is Harry and Ginny who do not wind up together, rather than Hermione and Ron (a coupling of which I also have issues with - nevertheless, my issues, my problem!
By gosh! that would make interesting reading indeed! We are all aware that JKR has deemed it so that Harry and Ginny be a pair - I haven't come across cannon yet (maybe someone can find it if it exists?), which states JKR saying that Harry and Ginny will be a pair, in the end, when all is done? - - - - - - - - - -
Sunny Baudelaire - Feb 3, 2007 11:18 pm (#1531 of 1858)
In the debate over whether or not Jo considers herself a children's book author, the most recent quote of all has yet to be brought up.
Written by Jo, herself, on her own web site in the rubbish bin under the headline "Pure Garbage":
Headline "Rowling is 'riled' by being seen as a children's book author."
Rowling's response: "Absolute Garbage! I have said many times that if I remain a children's author forever (which I may well do) I will never see this as being a lesser, easier or less 'serious' career as writing for adults. Whenever I have discussed the possibility of writing adult fiction, it has nearly always been because an interviewer has asked 'might you one day write a book for adults'."
So, not only did she call herself a "children's book author", she says she may even remain one forever. And this was her own site, written by her. No Rita Skeeter Quick Quotes Quill was at work!
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frogface - Feb 4, 2007 7:43 am (#1532 of 1858)
I believe she also said that her first book after Harry Potter, will be aimed at young children.
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sstabeler - Feb 4, 2007 9:03 am (#1533 of 1858)
personally, i can't see any of the Trio dying, nor Ginny. I'm not saying they might end up in danger of losing their life, but everything tends to return to pretty much normalcy after most of the books, which makes me think in the end, the main 4 characters will survive. even in OOTP, they were still together in the end. it was only in HBP, which to me seems as if it ended in the spring term, where they didn't.
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Thom Matheson - Feb 4, 2007 11:54 am (#1534 of 1858)
They'll grab Luna and Neville and start a commune of DA at #12.
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peachespig - Feb 4, 2007 4:42 pm (#1535 of 1858)
Sunny B, good catch with Jo's web page quote!
I've been looking through some of her interviews and there's no question she knew and knows she's writing "a children's book." I even found the text of the original letter she sent while looking for an agent in 1994:
"I enclose a synopsis and sample chapters of a book intended for children aged 9-12. I would be very grateful if you would tell me if you would be interested in seeing the full manuscript. Yours sincerely, Joanne Rowling"
So she's known from the very beginning -- before she had an agent, much less a publisher! -- that she was writing a children's book. (And anyway, how could she not have known?)
So, how to reconcile this with her other statements that she was not writing for children? I think this quote kind of explains it:
...I'd been writing for adults before and the manuscripts were never publishable. Then, I write what I think is a child's story-although really I wrote it for me, primarily for me. In fact, when I first started writing, I think I was thinking too much about the children who would read it. So, I thought, okay, just write it for yourself. And that was the right decision, because then, as a writer, you can't talk down to your audience...
So she knows it's "a child's story," and says so. But at the same time, she finds she can avoid talking down to the children, and she can write a better book, if she doesn't worry too much about what a children's book is "supposed to be". It's a useful mental trick to write the best book she can.
So anyway, getting back towards shipping, I do think she's stated clearly that there are limits to what she'd put in these books. Here's the actual quote I was alluding to before, from the "Connection" radio interview:
Now if I get the tone right, I do believe that your nine-year-old will still be interested in a fourteen-year-old Harry - obviously it is inappropriate in books like these - it would be totally alien to the tone of these books if we - if I got into - erm - too - too - grittily realistic an area that, you know - we're - we're not going to be looking at teenage pregnancy here, we're not going to be looking at drug-taking here, you know, this would be totally alien to the spirit of these books. However, I do want Harry to grow up in a realistic way ...
So although we can haggle about exactly what she would or wouldn't do, I would say this establishes conclusively that she won't do just anything: she considers there to be limits, in keeping with "the spirit" of the books, beyond which she can't in good faith go. My belief that the shipping situation will end up happy, not angsty or grim, comes from my perception of what she thinks this spirit is.
In particular, although there are some scary and unhappy things in the series (and no doubt more to come), it's been my observation that the parts of the plot focusing on growing up, the "normal teenager" part that everyone can identify with -- as opposed to the fight against evil part -- are more humorous and much less dark. I think shipping falls into this category. And I think Jo thinks so too:
I want Harry Potter and his friends to grow up as well as older, though I'll keep it all humorous, well within the tone of the books. I want them eventually to be truly 17 and discover girlfriends and boyfriends and have sexual feelings - nothing too gritty. Why not allow them to have those feelings?
I mentioned that one already, but I think it completes my thought process: her perception of the spirit of her books is that things like "growing up" and "romance" should be kept humorous and not gritty.
Sorry for the length, but I think this explains why I think the kids' romances, H/G and R/Hr in particular, will end happily, despite any other sad things that very likely will occur in Deathly Hallows.
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The One - Feb 5, 2007 1:01 pm (#1536 of 1858)
Open minded sceptic
Well, she seeems to say that sex is out of the question. A bit f snogging is as far as she will go in that department.
But the kids needs to learn that hormons will often lead you astray. We have seen it already, as in his crush on Cho preventing him from taking advice from Cederic, Hermione's fake date with Macglaggen, Ron hurting Lavender by entering a relationship he did not really have his heart in etc.
I do not at all see that the books being kids books prevents the Harry/Ginny or Ron Hermione relationship ending in nothing, or even in disaster.
We see a lot of violence and betrayal in the books already. Adding a betrayal caused by jealopsy for instance, may or may not happen, but I do not at all see that the children audiance prevents it.
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The One - Feb 5, 2007 2:05 pm (#1537 of 1858)
Open minded sceptic
I just wanted to add:
I am re-reading HBP now. I have just read the story about Merope Gaunt, who fell in love with a man not interested in her at all, tricked him magically, ran away from her family who found the guy as uaceptable as his folks found her, was later deserted by her husband, and ended up giving up her life in poverty, leaving a son behind to grow up in an orphanage.
Doesn't seem to me that Jo consider unhappy love stories unsuitable for her readers.
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peachespig - Feb 5, 2007 2:38 pm (#1538 of 1858)
The One said: I have just read the story about Merope Gaunt... Doesn't seem to me that Jo consider unhappy love stories unsuitable for her readers.
Yes, but the Jo quotes I supplied earlier were about "Harry Potter and his friends" growing up -- that was what I was talking about and that was what she said she would keep humorous. The main teenaged characters, who are the ones most readers are intended to identify with. Indeed, she seems perfectly willing to tell a much more sinister story for Riddle's mother. But I don't think she would ever have Hermione, for example, go through that kind of plot arc -- I think that's exactly what she means by "too gritty".
In fact, there is a parallel character at Hogwarts to Merope, in the sense of someone trying to get their way via a love potion -- Romilda. But notice how her story, in contrast to Merope's, is made humorous and light; we're not supposed to think Romilda is truly nasty, just amusing.
So the dire circumstance of Voldemort's birth -- a creepy aspect of the main dramatic plot -- is echoed in the growing-up plot in a much more amusing way. It's the growing-up plot developments that I expect to stay on the light side of things.
We see a lot of violence and betrayal in the books already. Adding a betrayal caused by jealopsy for instance, may or may not happen, but I do not at all see that the children audiance prevents it.
So it's not that I can't see any betrayal caused by jealousy anywhere in the story -- it's that I can't see it among Harry and his friends. I think that really would violate her criterion to keep their romances "humorous".
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sstabeler - Feb 5, 2007 2:42 pm (#1539 of 1858)
I think Romilda is supposed to be similar, but for a different reason. Romilda wanted to go to Slughorn's party with harry, while Merope always had marriage on her mind. there's a difference, as one is more permanent in effect.
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frogface - Feb 6, 2007 4:34 am (#1540 of 1858)
I think thats exactly the point Peachespig is trying to make Sstabeler. Even though it is absolutely necessary to have dark and gritty things happen in the book, that doesn't at all mean that dark and gritty will be the reflection of the relationships between H/G and R/H. It seems that JKR has said that she will keep the romances of the principle characters humourous and light. And that suggests to me that although there may be bumps in the road (H/R has been an EXTREMELY bumpy road!) ultimately it looks as though they will end up happy together.
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sstabeler - Feb 9, 2007 11:29 am (#1541 of 1858)
Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 9, 2007 10:31 am
I agree. I can see them all being happy together, although maybe not for ALL characters, as I think she could justify Draco's only love being killed, given he is so horrible. But for the main characters, I think there will be no deaths getting in the way. As an aside, given the Weasleys seem to have a lot of children, and Potters only one, judging by the pattern of James and Harry being only childs, I wonder how that will play out in regards to children. Or maybe it'll mean a medium number of children, not a massive number.
-Edited to fix some problems with capitalization.- SE Jones
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xray - Feb 9, 2007 2:38 pm (#1542 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
I don't know, Sstabeler. Usually an only child desires siblings. I've seen very large families result from parents where one was an only child and the other came from a large family. I might expect a Harry/Ginny union to result in at least 5 children, perhaps with as many as 10.
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journeymom - Feb 9, 2007 6:08 pm (#1543 of 1858)
Well, it take two to tango. Ginny is seven of seven. She might not want a bunch of kids. But the pattern does seem to have a grain of truth. My grandmother was an only and proceeded to have nine children. My husband is the oldest of seven and would have been perfectly happy to have no children. I guess two kids was a nice compromise!
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xray - Feb 17, 2007 12:49 am (#1544 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
I just had a fun thought... what would Vernon and Petunia say if Dudley started dating Luna Lovegood?!
I now ship Luna/Dudley !!!
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xray - Feb 17, 2007 9:45 am (#1545 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
I thought about this some more... wouldn't it be so fun to see Luna and Dudley date? Imagine Dudley starting to get out of hand and Luna nonchalantly hinting at a hex to keep him in check. Luna's so laid back and out there and Dudley is controlling but afraid of magic. He might try to take charge and Luna would go along with him up to a point. They'd make such a perfect couple, don't you think?
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haymoni - Feb 17, 2007 10:00 am (#1546 of 1858)
I think Dudley would be more terrified of Luna than Neville is.
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Soul Search - Feb 17, 2007 6:41 pm (#1547 of 1858)
Luna is too nice to have anything to do with Dudley.
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Luna Logic - Feb 18, 2007 2:54 am (#1548 of 1858)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Dudley is specialised in bullying Luna's like children (and many others).
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Sunny Baudelaire - Feb 18, 2007 3:01 pm (#1549 of 1858)
xray - THAT was funny! What would you call your ship? The Looney Lumps?
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peachespig - Feb 18, 2007 4:26 pm (#1550 of 1858)
"Dudgood".
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Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 1551 to 1600)
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Eponine - Feb 19, 2007 8:45 am (#1551 of 1858)
Before Jo debunked it, I liked the idea of Luna and Neville together. I still think they'd be cute together, but I'm not wasting energy over wishing it would happen in the books. Personally, I think Luna is unlikely to end up in a relationship in canon.
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Gatorgrad1991 - Feb 19, 2007 11:04 am (#1552 of 1858)
Eponine said: Personally, I think Luna is unlikely to end up in a relationship in canon.
I agree, wholeheartedly. It's not like these are romance novels, where everyone must be paired off for a Happily Ever After at the end. And Luna is, in many ways, a true individual. She doesn't need a "mate".
I like Luna with either Fred or George in fanon, though.
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peachespig - Feb 19, 2007 11:16 am (#1553 of 1858)
Gatorgrad: why not both?
Seriously, I also agree that Luna may end up unpaired (Neville as well, though I can kind of see the epilogue telling us that 5 years later he married Susan Bones or something). For Luna it is still not easy to even have friends; I think that should probably come before a romance. And assuming she lives, I kind of expect at the end of DH that it will be made clear Luna's been fully accepted into the extended family of the main characters.
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Sunny Baudelaire - Feb 19, 2007 4:05 pm (#1554 of 1858)
Well, Luna would not have been in the original epilogue because Jo wrote that in 1990, and I'm convinced that Luna was a late addition to Order of the Phoenix. I also think that the fact that we've never been given her birthday puts her on par with characters like Dean Thomas, Seamus Finnegan, the Patil twins, Lavender Brown, Susan Bones, Ernie MacMillan, etc. etc. Jo certainly is not going to go into the future life of every character. So we may never find out about Luna in the epilogue.
But, I confess, my opinion may be biased due to my not fully understanding the love that a section of fandom has for her character.
Peachespig - I like your Dudgood name. (Wonder if x-ray will allow me to be first mate.)
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peachespig - Feb 19, 2007 5:39 pm (#1555 of 1858)
Thanks Sunny B, and I'm sure xray will be needing all the shipmates he can get!
I definitely agree about the likelihood of Luna being a late addition, but I would not quite put her with those other characters you mention. The thing about Luna is that she has fought in the end battle in each of the last two books -- she's participated in the main dramatic plot. Pretty much all those other characters are only involved in the growing-up plot and didn't participate in the fights. She responded to the DA summons when Neville was the only other person to do so in HBP. I think that raises her profile.
So Jo might have had to make it up in the last few years, but I think we will hear something about Luna's future, if she survives.
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Rosie Lu - Feb 19, 2007 10:03 pm (#1556 of 1858)
I also thought it'd be Neville/Luna until Jo shut that down, and in HBP Neville and Luna were always together, so if she hadn't shut it down, I'd probably still be expecting it.
Now, I'm worried Luna or Neville are going to die. *wibble* But hopefully they won't. I'd be crushed if they did. If they do survive, I don't expect we'll learn who they marry, unless it's someone like peachespig suggested and happens down the road. I'd actually like to see Neville get with someone sweet like Susan Bones, or maybe Hannah Abbott.
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Rosie Lu - Feb 20, 2007 4:45 am (#1557 of 1858)
Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 27, 2007 2:27 am
This post is in response to a now deleted post by member BrandyCane that read:
"You don't battle Death Eaters in two seperate battles and come out practically unscathed too often. And the fact that we don't know Luna's birthday makes me believe all the more that there's something very special about Luna.
We don't know Dumbledore's birthday, as well; and I see Dumbledore and Luna as mirror-images of each other.
But, be that as it may - this is a shipping thread, and I'm way off course, here.
So, in parting, remember this: POTTY LURVES LOONY!" - SE Jones
We don't know Dumbledore's birthday, as well; and I see Dumbledore and Luna as mirror-images of each other.
Dumbledore died, which is why I don't think Dumbledore got a birthday. I don't think Sirius got one either, though I'd have to double check.
I don't take this as proof Luna will die, btw, although, as I said above, I do worry. I certainly don't want Luna to die, but that's why I believe Dumbledore never got one.
I'm sorry if I'm mistaken, but I've never understood why people take shipping so seriously. It baffles me.
By your last sentence, I take it you prefer Harry/Luna. That's fine, and I see nothing wrong with that ship at all, although I don't see it in the books (Harry is clearly destined to be with Ginny if he lives), but I'm sure it's a fun ship to enjoy in fanfiction, much like I'm sure Neville/Luna shippers still do. It's no reason to take your aggressions out on a fictional character.
- This post was edited to remove comments that lead to inappropriate discussion. Remember everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Play nice, everyone. - SE Jones
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Eponine - Feb 20, 2007 6:46 am (#1558 of 1858)
Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 23, 2007 1:13 pm
This discussion seem to be veering a bit off topic. Whether or not Luna lives or dies has nothing to do with shipping (although, I'm firmly in the "I don't know" camp).
Let's stick to actual shipping discussion, so the mods don't feel the need to warn us.
So, at what point will Ron and Hermione officially be a couple?
- This post was edited to remove part of a discussion that was deleted from other posts. - SE Jones
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Rosie Lu - Feb 20, 2007 7:05 am (#1559 of 1858)
So, at what point will Ron and Hermione officially be a couple?
Hopefully at Bill and Fleur's wedding, so it'll ease the tension between them and make the horcrux hunt less stressful romance-wise. I think it'll be important that Harry has both of them there by his side, helping him in all the ways they can.
I saw Ron and Hermione as very much a unit at the end of HBP, set-up to help Harry, and this was after the Lavender stuff. So, I'm hoping their couple-hood will happen at the wedding. But who knows, maybe Jo would rather hold off until closer to the end. We still have to see Krum, I believe.
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Eponine - Feb 20, 2007 7:26 am (#1560 of 1858)
Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 26, 2007 7:44 pm
This post is in response to a now deleted post member BrandyCane that read:
"You claim to not understand why people take shipping so seriously, yet you believe that Harry & Ginny, in your words, are destined to be together...if he lives, that is.
A bit contradictive, don't you think?
Yes, I adore Harry/Luna. They seem to bring out the best in one another, and if Harry were to survive & move on with his life, I would love for him to have a woman as ethereally beautiful as Luna." - SE Jones
I don't take shipping that seriously either, but I also believe that Harry and Ginny are destined to be together because I believe that Jo wrote them that way. And in the Potterverse, Jo is destiny. If for some reason, H/G didn't happen, I wouldn't be that devastated. It's just a book. It's possible to not be a serious shipper and still be certain that two characters are going to be together.
I am a bit curious where it says that Luna is ethereally beautiful in canon, though. I can't recall any physical descriptions of her other than her having straggly, dirty blonde hair and protuberant silvery eyes. Was there a description of her that I missed in the books somewhere?
- This post was edited to remove part of a discussion that was deleted from other posts. - SE Jones
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Rosie Lu - Feb 20, 2007 8:09 am (#1561 of 1858)
Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 23, 2007 1:33 pm
You claim to not understand why people take shipping so seriously, yet you believe that Harry & Ginny, in your words, are destined to be together...if he lives, that is.
A bit contradictive, don't you think?
No, because I don't care that much. But, the books and Jo herself point to a H/G pairing, and I don't see a point in arguing against that. In all honesty, what I care more about is Harry living and being happy. The books had him happy with her in HBP, so I'm happy with that. Just as I'm happy with the R/Hr pairing.
- This post was edited to remove a response to an inappropriate discussion that had already been deleted. - SE Jones
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Luna Logic - Feb 20, 2007 8:28 am (#1562 of 1858)
from the other side (of the Channel)
One argument against an eventual Luna shipping (sorry if the expression is not correct, I'm not a great expert at this matter!):
in the books JKR doesn't show us a single boy taking a (shipping) interest in Luna.
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xray - Feb 20, 2007 8:55 am (#1563 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 26, 2007 7:48 pm
Brandy Cane, as others have pointed out elsewhere in this forum, Luna has the mind of a child in her oblivious serenity like persona and her blind anti-logic beliefs. Is this why you call her ethereal beauty? I honestly have not seen Harry and Luna interact in any way that would imply that they bring out the best in each other, much less show affection.
- Edited to remove a response to a now deleted post. - SE Jones
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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 20, 2007 10:25 am (#1564 of 1858)
Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 23, 2007 1:43 pm
I do not think Ginny is sweet and adorable at all, and that fact is well known. I think she's a whining bore. I am a Dead Harry person, but if we're going to talk about the possibility of something happening to Ginny instead then I suppose I could go for an H/L ship as well. Luna is connected to the thestrals, but that doesn't have to mean death. Harry could change his mind about her exactly the way he changed his mind about them. He wonders how he could ever have thought them ugly at one point, does he not? And he never really called Luna ugly anyway, anymore than he's called Ginny pretty. It never happened.
Part of my anti-H/G stance I concede is probably film contamination. Most of Ginny's good scenes that could be hints for an H/G ship have been cut, such as the scene where Ron suggests Harry ask her to the ball, and the scene where she does not have a good time with Neville at the ball. Luna has gotten extra stuff she didn't already have, such as the scene where she and Harry go for a walk in the woods and she explains thestrals to him, and H/L fans I know are enjoying that. Jo approves the scripts. I can't help but wonder why these things are happening.
- This post was edited to remove comments from a previously deleted discussion. - SE Jones
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Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 20, 2007 6:16 pm (#1565 of 1858)
Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 23, 2007 1:56 pm
In terms of relationships, I tend to think that J.K. Rowling has given deliberate thought to the construction of the various relationships and constricted them with due diligence being given to those actions, feelings, and emotions that are explicitly illustrated for the benefit of the readers, and those actions, feelings that are implied by context.
- This post was edited to remove a response to a now deleted discussion. - SE Jones
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Rosie Lu - Feb 20, 2007 7:58 pm (#1566 of 1858)
Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 23, 2007 1:59 pm
So far, in the books, what scene between a couple has been your favorite? I quite like the Mollywobbles scene with Molly and Arthur in HBP. ;D
- This post was edited to remove a response to a now deleted discussion. - SE Jones
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Eponine - Feb 20, 2007 8:02 pm (#1567 of 1858)
I adore the Mollywobbles scene. I always picture Arthur standing on the other side of the door, saying, "To find out how airplanes stay up" (or whatever it was that he said close to that) in this sort of childish excitement/wonderment way. Molly and Arthur are just precious, and I loved Harry's embarrassed reaction to the mollywobbles bit.
I also really liked Fleur's statement about being beautiful enough for the both of them. She was really quite annoying throughout the book, but you can tell she really loves Bill there.
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xray - Feb 20, 2007 8:05 pm (#1568 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Oooh, Fleur's statement floored me. Really, my jaw dropped.
Then Molly's response... oh man if I was a girl I'd have cried.
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Rosie Lu - Feb 20, 2007 8:12 pm (#1569 of 1858)
Fleur's statement was the best. I love Fleur, she's really quite oblivious to the fact that Molly can't stand her, but then she goes and says that! It was the the sweetest and funniest line in the book.
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journeymom - Feb 20, 2007 8:20 pm (#1570 of 1858)
Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 23, 2007 2:00 pm
I'm a girl and I was a wet mess throughout that scene. (I was a wet mess throughout most of the last portion of the book.) I just remind myself that Fleur was a TriWizard champion and Bill loves her for a reason.
- This post was edited to remove a response to a now deleted discussion. - SE Jones
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History2010 - Feb 20, 2007 10:41 pm (#1571 of 1858)
So far, in the books, what scene between a couple has been your favorite?
I have to say that my favorite scene is between Ron and Hermione, when Hermione fixes Ron's essay after he uses the "Spell-Check" Quill, and he says, "I love you, Hermione."
As it's my OTP, it's a great squee-worthy moment, and then it's also just something that Ron says to her without thinking about it. It's a great moment.
I also like the "Mollywobbles" moment.
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Thom Matheson - Feb 20, 2007 10:59 pm (#1572 of 1858)
Mine is the Hermione/Ron line, " (no book here) Ronald you have the emotionly something the size of a teaspoon". Don't remember all of it but I can imagine them sitting around the table with all their friends 20 years later and saying that like some loving squabbling couple. Right up there with Arthur and Molly. Remember the Princess Bride scene with Billy Crystal? Squabbling couple again, but in a loving way.
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Sunny Baudelaire - Feb 20, 2007 11:11 pm (#1573 of 1858)
I liked Hermione calling Ron "Mr. Master of Mystery" in HBP, it just barely beats out the "emotional range of a teaspoon" line for me.
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Thom Matheson - Feb 20, 2007 11:18 pm (#1574 of 1858)
Is that like McGonnagal's "bunch of babbling babboons"?
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Jadelollipop - Feb 21, 2007 4:59 am (#1575 of 1858)
So far, in the books, what scene between a couple has been your favorite? Do I have to pick just one? I love the end of HBP with Fleur's declaration but that is about Bill and to Molly... another couple there is Remus and Tonks There are several for Ron and Hermione to choose from but I love the scene in GOF
Ron: Hermione, Neville's right You are a girl Hermione: Oh well spotted!... Just because its taken you 3 years to notice, Ron, doesn't mean no one else has spotted I'm a girl
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Gatorgrad1991 - Feb 21, 2007 5:41 am (#1576 of 1858)
Rosie Lu: So far, in the books, what scene between a couple has been your favorite?
There are so many! Like others I loved "Mollywobbles". I thought it made a beautiful and sweet counterpoint to all of the times we see Molly being somewhat overbearing. And it makes it clear how much she and Arthur love each other.
Fleur's flair-up in the hospital wing was brilliant as well. She declares her love for Bill in such a straightforward manner, as if to say how dare anyone question it.
I like the Harry/Ginny break-up scene at the end soooooooooooooooo much. It shows how they relate to each other so well, especially when Harry thinks that Ginny won't argue with him about his decision. It really is amazing how JKR gives you such a strong sense of how well they know each other with so few words.
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Good Evans - Feb 21, 2007 8:52 am (#1577 of 1858)
Practically perfect in every way
Rosie Lu - can I suggest that you suggest this as a vote option on the vote thread? You will need to pick out some scenes as te options but could leave in a "other - please state which" option.
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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 21, 2007 12:55 pm (#1578 of 1858)
Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 23, 2007 2:03 pm
I have very few romantic moments that I can actually say I liked. I don't think romance is Jo's strong point, and most of them, especially in HBP are like reading bad fanfic. But Fleur standing up to Molly was overdue and a classic.
- This post was edited to remove a response to a now deleted discussion. - SE Jones
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haymoni - Feb 21, 2007 1:00 pm (#1579 of 1858)
I still cry everytime I get to that part, but I don't cry over Dumbledore anymore. Odd.
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journeymom - Feb 21, 2007 3:51 pm (#1580 of 1858)
"I liked Hermione calling Ron "Mr. Master of Mystery" in HBP, it just barely beats out the "emotional range of a teaspoon" line for me."
Sunny, I don't remember that line! Where is it from?
"Babbling, bumbling, bunch of baboons." Repeat several times.
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Catherine - Feb 21, 2007 3:52 pm (#1581 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
Edited Feb 23, 2007 3:07 pm
I realize that this thread has moved on, so please do not allow this post to disrupt a good discussion, but....
There have been some inappropriate comments on this thread. If these continue, I will have this thread locked until folks cool off.
I will be watching this thread very closely, and folks in violation of our Forum guidelines may expect an email from me.
Play nicely.
And back to the regularly scheduled discussion....
If you have questions or comments about this post, DO NOT post to this thread. Instead, email me at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
In addition, do NOT delete posts. I or another Host may edit posts as we see fit, but posts are not to be deleted.
EDIT: I am assuming that Host S.E. Jones left this post intact because she had to edit this thread for inappropriate and off-topic posts. Thank you to all of the HPLF members who tried to keep the discussion "on track" and civil.--Catherine
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Sunny Baudelaire - Feb 21, 2007 4:40 pm (#1582 of 1858)
journeymom, It was in the Chapter 'Draco's Detour'. Hermione had just come out of Borgin and Burkes unsuccessful in her attempt to find out what Malfoy was trying to purchase. Ron said something about her being too obvious and her retort was something along the lines of "well do it yourself Mr. Master of Mystery." Then they bickered all the way back to Fred and George's shop.
Some people would say that doesn't qualify as a romantic moment, but I disagree!
(The quotes were paraphrased. I don't have my book handy.)
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xray - Feb 28, 2007 12:19 am (#1583 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Someone once said this to me in a different forum prior to HBP: "That is something I don't get. H/G possibility? Where? I don't see anything that could lead to a H/G romance"
I've seen some people lamenting how they never saw Harry/Ginny coming; that it was so sudden without buildup. I beg to differ. Here is some of the H/G development I see throughout the books prior to HBP.
Sorcerer's Stone (Philosopher's Stone)
We see Ginny as Harry arrives at the train station and again when he's disembarking from the train at the end… why? Initially, she's very outgoing and forceful.
Chamber of Secrets
(CoS, Scholastic Press, Ch. 3: The Burrow, p43)
At that moment there was a diversion in the form of a small, redheaded figure in a long nightdress, who appeared in the kitchen, gave a small squeal, and ran out again.
"Ginny," said Ron in an undertone to Harry. "My sister. She's been talking about you all summer."
(p50)
On the third landing, a door stood ajar. Harry just caught sight of a pair of bright brown eyes staring at him before it closed with a snap.
"Ginny," said Ron. "You don't know how weird it is for her to be this shy. She never shuts up normally —"
(p53)
He and Ron went down to breakfast to find Mr. and Mrs. Weasley and Ginny already sitting at the kitchen table. The moment she saw Harry, Ginny accidentally knocked her porridge bowl to the floor with a loud clatter. Ginny seemed very prone to knocking things over whenever Harry entered a room. She dived under the table to retrieve the bowl and emerged with her face glowing like the setting sun. Pretending he hadn't noticed this, Harry sat down and took the toast Mrs. Weasley offered him.
(p55)
"Oh, are you starting at Hogwarts this year?" Harry asked Ginny. She nodded, blushing to the roots of her flaming hair, and put her elbow in the butter dish. Fortunately no one saw this except Harry
It's interesting how we get exposed to Ginny here. So far it's all Ginny->Harry.
(CoS, Scholastic Press, Ch. 4: At Flourish and Blotts, p76)
"Famous Harry Potter," said Malfoy. "Can't even go into a bookshop without making the front page."
"Leave him alone, he didn't want all that!" said Ginny. It was the first time she had spoken in front of Harry. She was glaring at Malfoy.
"Potter, you've got yourself a girlfriend!" drawled Malfoy. Ginny went scarlet as Ron and Hermione fought their way over, both clutching stacks of Lockhart's books.
Ruh Roh... Draco said the G word.
(CoS, Scholastic Press, Ch 13: The Very Secret Diary, p302)
Hot all over at the thought of being given a valentine in front of a line of first years, which happened to include Ginny Weasley, Harry tried to escape.
( p304)
Malfoy was looking furious, and as Ginny passed him to enter her classroom, he yelled spitefully after her, "I don't think Potter liked your valentine much!"
Ginny covered her face with her hands and ran into class.
(CoS, Scholastic Press, Ch. 17: The Heir of Slytherin, p392)
"The diary," said Riddle. "My diary. Little Ginny's been writing in it for months and months, telling me all her pitiful worries and woes - how her brothers tease her, how she had to come to school with secondhand robes and books, how" —Riddle's eyes glinted "how she didn't think famous, good, great Harry Potter would ever like her…."
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
(PoA, Scholastic Press, Ch. 4: The Leaky Cauldron, p62)
Ginny, who had always been very taken with Harry, seemed even more heartily embarrassed than usual when she saw him, perhaps because he had saved her life during their previous year and muttered "hello" without looking at him.
(PoA, Scholastic Press, Ch. 5: The Dementor, p71)
"Ah, there's Penelope!" said Percy, smoothing his hair and going Pink again. Ginny caught Harry's eye, and they both turned away to hide their laughter as Percy strode over to a girl with long, curly hair, walking with his chest thrown out so that she couldn't miss his shiny badge stood back to let him on.
(PoA, Scholastic Press, Ch. 10: The Marauder's Map, p183)
He had a stream of visitors, all intent on cheering him up. Hagrid sent him a bunch of earwiggy flowers that looked like yellow cabbages, and Ginny Weasley, blushing furiously, turned up with a get-well card she had made herself.
That last one is quite interesting. Ginny seldom appears in PoA. We see her on page 86 shaking like mad after the dementors appeared on the train. (The only one affected worse was Harry.) She reappears only twice more: on page 160 where they discover the portrait of the Fat Lady slashed and on page 183 as illustrated above when she brings her homemade get-well card. It seems as if JKR is going out of her way to give Ginny cameos to keep up the Ginny—>Harry story line. She's certainly doing her best to keep them apart. My guess is so that they don't develop a sibling like relationship similar to what has developed between Harry and Hermione. I can still see the grimace on Jo Rowling's face in when Couric suggested it. Harry and Hermione? Eww!
(continued next post)
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xray - Feb 28, 2007 12:22 am (#1584 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
(continued from previous post)
Goblet of Fire
(GoF, Scholastic Press, Ch. 5, Weasleys' Wizard Wheezes, p54)
Then two girls appeared in the kitchen doorway behind Mrs. Weasley. One, with very bushy brown hair and rather large front teeth, was Harry's and Ron's friend, Hermione Granger. The other, who was small and red-haired, was Ron's younger sister, Ginny. Both of them smiled at Harry, who grinned back, which made Ginny go scarlet — she had been very taken with Harry ever since his first visit to the Burrow.
Isn't that interesting. JKR repeats what she said in PoA… that Ginny was always very taken with Harry.
(GoF, Scholastic Press, Ch. 22: The Unexpected Task, p399)
"I asked [Cho] to go with me just now," Harry said dully, "and she told me."
Ginny had suddenly stopped smiling.
(p401)
"Right," said Ron, who looked extremely put out, "this is getting stupid. Ginny, you can go with Harry, and I'll just -"
"I can't," said Ginny, and she went scarlet too. "I'm going with - with Neville. He asked me when Hermione said no, and I thought… well…. I'm not going to be able to go otherwise, I'm not in fourth year." She looked extremely miserable. "I think I'll go and have dinner," she said, and she got up and walked off to the portrait hole, her head bowed.
Poor Ginny. She looked extremely miserable for missing an opportunity to go with Harry to the ball. Can't you just feel her pain? Yet, as bad as she wants to go, we see some strong, significant character development… she's true to her word. She doesn't blow off Neville… she agreed to go with him. Sigh. Poor Ginny. She must really feel miserable.
Order of the Phoenix
In OotP Ginny's character grows tremendously. She overcomes her crush and is able to face Harry on a more peer-to-peer level.
(OotP, Scholastic Press, Ch. 4: Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place, p69) "Oh, hello, Harry!" said Ron's younger sister, Ginny, brightly. "I thought I heard your voice."
Do you notice how Rowling seems to force the word brightly in there?
(Ch. 9: The Woes of Mrs. Weasley, p170)
[Tonks'] hair was tomato red and waist-length today; she looked like Ginny's older sister.
Tonks' description (Ch. 3: The Advance Guard, p47):
She looked the youngest there; she had a pale heart-shaped face, dark twinkling eyes, and short spiky hair that was a violent shade of violet.
(Ch. 23: Christmas on the Closed Ward, p509)
"Well, hello there!" he said. "I expect you'd like my autograph, would you?"
"Hasn't changed much, has he?" Harry muttered to Ginny, who grinned.
(Ch. 38: The Second War Begins, p848)
Ginny caught Harry's eye and looked away quickly, grinning.
At the very end of OotP, Ron hints toward H/G for book 6:
(OotP, Scholastic Press, Ch. 38: The Second War Begins, p866, Ron speaking to Ginny about her now ex-bf, Michael Corner)
"Michael—but—" said Ron, craning around in his seat to stare at her. "But you were going out with him!"
"Not any more," said Ginny resolutely. "He didn't like Gryffindor beating Ravenclaw at Quidditch, and got really sulky, so I ditched him and he ran off to comfort Cho instead." She scratched her nose absently with the end of her quill, turned The Quibbler upsidedown and began marking her answers. Ron looked highly delighted.
"Well, I always thought he was a bit of an idiot," he said, prodding his queen forwards towards Harry's quivering castle. "Good for you. Just choose someone—better—next time."
He cast Harry an oddly furtive look as he said it.
Jo Rowling recently let us know that Ginny was one of her favorite characters. We also know that Ginny is a very forceful character (from the World Book Chat in March). Some of the most telling "evidence" is found in this Time Pacific interview.
And what about Ginny [Ron's younger sister]? Poor Ginny, languishing in love for Harry, and he's merrily asking out other girls right under her nose! But that's just a boy thing."
She reinforces a scene directly from Goblet of Fire where Harry asks Cho to the Yule Ball right under Ginny's nose (see above). But even more remarkable than that quote is the context in which it was provided. In that interview, Rowling is talking about the trio and their relationships. It is strictly about Harry, Ron, and Hermione. Then, out of the blue, she throws in that bit about Ginny. I recommend you read the entire interview. She wasn't asked a question about Ginny. It was all about Harry, Ron, Hermione, and in particular Harry's faults. Rowling just blurted it out.
xray
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lobelia - Feb 28, 2007 12:14 pm (#1585 of 1858)
Fabulous Job. It looks like you have a great start to an editorial. I think what surprised me was the change in Harry toward Ginny. I think that you only see it in HBP when they have time to begin to be friends. I think he always counted on her as part of the Weasley family and cared for in the way he cared for Fred and George. How does familial love become "crush" love? I think the first time he thought of Ginny in that way was when he overheard Zambini retelling the events with the intial meeting with Slughorn. He mentions that a lot of boys find her pretty.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 1, 2007 4:59 pm (#1586 of 1858)
Let it snow!
xray --I've seen some people lamenting how they never saw Harry/Ginny coming; that it was so sudden without buildup. I beg to differ. Here is some of the H/G development I see throughout the books prior to HBP.--
Well, as one of the people lamenting the lack of buildup to the Harry/Ginny relationship, let me offer my perspective. It's not that the books are lacking proof/buildup/whatever that Ginny has romantic feelings for Harry (as you so aptly proved, xray), it's that the books are lacking buildup of Harry having feelings for Ginny. His feelings are the one that seemed to bloom out of nowhere, which may have been what Jo was going for, but I just don't care for the way she told that part of the story. If she wanted to build them up as friends first so Harry could get Cho out of his system, fine, but you'd think an author would still want to slowly leave clues to a future romance with Ginny (especially considering how much Jo loves her clues). I've read other books that do this very well, one in particular has the couple start out as friends but with the girl having a crush on the guy. The guy continues to see the girl as friendly, younger female friend and nothing more until one day he notices how pretty her hair looks (Jo showed this with Ron and Hermione when Ron notices the change in Hermione's front teeth), but thinks nothing more about it. The guy keeps noting things like this about the girl but she doesn't become a focus of romantic interest until he sees someone else focusing on her in that fashion (Jo again did this very well with Ron and Hermione). Why couldn't Harry have noted that Ginny was very pretty earlier in the books without attaching romantic significance to the comment, then mention an uneasy feeling when he sees her with Corner, which he dismisses, then noticing the way she smells (which is the first actual hint of any building romantic feeling that we actually do get), then buildup even more to actual jealousy when he sees her with Dean. Skipping straight to "hey, she smells good; how dare Dean touch her" just seems to drastic a leap to me. I mean, I could believe it if Dean were the first boy to see her as a romantic interest which peaked Harry's jealousy (similar to what happened with Ron and Hermione), but that isn't the case as we have Micheal Corner from the year before. Maybe I'm just disappointed because Ron and Hermione's relationship development was so well done and Harry and Ginny's seems like an afterthought in comparison (which I know it isn't supposed to, which just disappoints me more).....
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MickeyCee3948 - Mar 1, 2007 9:04 pm (#1587 of 1858)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
As you say, he had to get Cho out of his system. He also considers Ginny off limits because she is Ron's sister. He also has a somewhat brotherly affection for Ginny which he had to get over.
I see that the story has progressed normally for teenagers. It usually doesn't take a couple of years for their relationships to develop. As a matter of fact some change relationships as often as they change their pants.
Of course, I'm not referring to anyone with the intellect and good sense to be involved with the forum. LOL "smile"
Mickey
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lobelia - Mar 2, 2007 10:51 am (#1588 of 1858)
I'm with you S.E. Jones. I loved the relationship with Ron and Hermoine. Still not really sure are we......, but in Harry's mind Ginny just sort of went from friend and familial figure to monster in the chest jealousy. I think the directness and the briskness of it is what is disappointing. We know Ginny has always had a thing for Harry, but shouldn't she of been surprised when Harry suddenly kissed her after winning the game? The beginning of the written relationship seemed forced for me. That being said, I love Ginny's character and there seems to be no better match for Harry. I actually like that JKR had them break up at the end of HBP. The story line can focus on the fight and not on romantic meetings in tea shops.
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Jadelollipop - Mar 2, 2007 11:03 am (#1589 of 1858)
But Harry did notice her in earlier books. "Bright brown eyes" in COS Vivid Weasley Hair (COS)...Long dancing hair (OOTP) eyes reflecting firelight, curled up like a cat, watched her walk away (OOTP)... He also attempted to speak to her on various occasions...With Harry it was always going to be a "struck by lightning" moment
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xray - Mar 2, 2007 11:43 am (#1590 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
the books are lacking buildup of Harry having feelings for Ginny. His feelings are the one that seemed to bloom out of nowhere, which may have been what Jo was going for, but I just don't care for the way she told that part of the story. - S.E. Jones
I agree with you a little bit. I too would have liked to see Harry sticking his elbow in the butter dish but I'm not disappointed with how Jo wrote Harry->Ginny in HBP. How does one write the buildup to a crush when you're inside his head all the time to begin with? It's tough because it never happens that way. A guy's feelings for someone who's already rather close to him may develop slowly but he doesn't realize it until there's a sudden epiphany. It's not an incremental process: first she's nice, then she's sweet, then she's cute, then she's cute + a little bit, then she's cute + a little bit more, then pretty, then pretty plus I like her, then pretty + .... One day you notice how pretty, sweet, and cute she is, then you find yourself trying to be near her a little more than before and suddenly it's a full blown crush with I can't stop thinking about her. Harry always saw Ginny in a positive light and even back in OotP we saw some signs of Harry noticing Ginny... the chocolate in the library scene comes to mind. There weren't a lot, but it's not like there was nothing.
Why couldn't Harry have noted that Ginny was very pretty earlier in the books without attaching romantic significance to the comment,
Didn't this happen? On the train when Harry was hiding in Draco's compartment.
then mention an uneasy feeling when he sees her with Corner, which he dismisses, then noticing the way she smells (which is the first actual hint of any building romantic feeling that we actually do get), then buildup even more to actual jealousy when he sees her with Dean.
Yeah, it sure would have been fun to see it written like that but in reality it doesn't, at least not from the inside. If the story were being told from a different point of view than Harry's we'd probably have seen it like we did for Ron and Hermione. Hermione definitely noticed something was up and ... well, girls gossip.
Ginny just sort of went from friend and familial figure to monster in the chest jealousy. - lobelia
I don't think he went to familial figure at all. I think Jo intentionally kept them apart to avoid that very perception.
We know Ginny has always had a thing for Harry, but shouldn't she of been [sic] surprised when Harry suddenly kissed her after winning the game?
No, definitely not. Ginny knew how Harry felt thanks to Hermione. Smart girl that Hermione.
I agree with both of you that there could have been a little more buildup, but to say there was none is wrong. I'm not disappointed with what we were given, not at all.
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Sunny Baudelaire - Mar 2, 2007 12:53 pm (#1591 of 1858)
I laugh when I hear people say that "Harry and Ginny were sudden." Believe me, for those of us expecting this pair since book 1, it was a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG Wait!
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Hoot Owl - Mar 3, 2007 3:00 pm (#1592 of 1858)
Teacher
Why should Ginny have been surprised? Hadn't Harry been looking at her and treating her a bit differently all year? Looking annoyed when she left him on the train to sit with Dean. Reassuring her that he was not taking orders from a book, even before she asked. Asking her to go to Hogsmead with him. Hermione probably did tip her off that Harry seemed very interested in Ginny's relationship. Not to mention the month or so after her breakup when Harry couldn't stop himself from looking at her, talking with her, laughing with her, walking her back after practice!
She ran across the common room, with "a hard blazing look on her face" and threw her arms around his neck. If he hadn't kissed her, I think, maybe, she was going to kiss him! I think she was tired of waiting! After all four year is along time, especially when you are fifteen.
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sstabeler - Mar 3, 2007 3:27 pm (#1593 of 1858)
Hoot owl, i agree to a point.I get the impression Ginny didn't notice the subtle glances, or at least their true meaning. I agree that she wanted to force Harry to decide though. If she had thrown her arms around him in a hug, I would have though she was just celebrating the win with her Captain. but throwing her arms around his neck, I believe means she would have kissed Harry if he hadn't. She might have been surprised he managed to get in a kiss first though.
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Wanda - Mar 4, 2007 10:54 am (#1594 of 1858)
Editor
I agree, Sunny (nods fervently)! I've been waiting for Harry and Ginny to get together since Book 1 too.
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Sticky Glue - Mar 4, 2007 1:14 pm (#1595 of 1858)
Yep, so have I
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 6, 2007 4:14 pm (#1596 of 1858)
For people who have been hoping for this snog session since the characters were ten and eleven, it must seem odd that anyone could see anything wrong with it, but I'm going to try again to explain what's wrong with it as I see it, so people can refute or agree with my points as they will.
Ginny is apparently made for Harry, and from what I have been told, made to fit his life, but to me that makes her inherently subservient to him, despite Jo's comment about them being equals. Other characters have problems, ambitions, desires and feelings that extend beyond Harry, but Ginny does not. Everything about her revolves around him, either getting him to notice her, or supporting him, or just being what he wants her to be. Ginny is too Harry-centric to interest me as a character. I don't see the personality other people seem to see, because it's all about liking Harry, getting noticed by Harry, making Harry jealous or defending Harry. She's not really becoming a more interesting character, or more prominent, or even more powerful, for anything of her own. Her journey, as Jo described it, seems to be solely concerned with arriving at a point where she is Harry' idealized love interest. She's perfect for him because he needs someone who is perfect for him,because HE deserves some happiness.
So she's been made perfect for him, but what does she get out of it? How does he fulfill her? That's what I want to know as a woman, a mom and a mother of both daughters and sons. She's supposed to support Harry and serve his wants and needs, but does she ever think about what she needs? Does he care what she thinks? Is she even a person in her own right?
I have to say no. He doesn't confide in her. He doesn't tell her what's really bothering him, and see if she can relate. He forgets the most traumatic experience of her life that he knows of...the diary. He brushes her off when she asks him pointed questions about a possibly enchanted book he's dealing with. And he breaks up with her because of how HE would feel if it were her funeral.
I don't buy it's an equal relationship, or that she has developed a personality of her own. I don't see it on the page. In a relationship I want to see people who can negotiate, and work together, and become better people when they are together, who have consideration for EACH OTHER'S needs. Tom Riddle spent more time listening to and talking to Ginny than Harry did, canonically, and that's sad. When he talked about how she felt and confided in him, I at least believed him, even if it was for nefarious purposes.
So I don't like Ginny with Harry, plain and simple, because they don't do any kind of connecting that comes across to me. Yes, they're very young and need to mature, but I still see fans saying they do love each other, and that they're going to be married in the next book, and all sorts of things I don't understand.
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Eponine - Mar 6, 2007 6:09 pm (#1597 of 1858)
You know, these characters are essentially just words on a page. It doesn't matter if she was created to be his love interest. It's not detrimental to her or to him because they're plot points, both of them.
I like the two of them together, and I've been expecting them to be together since after GoF when I actually took the time to think about the shipping. I'm not all that fussed about whether we see them really connecting on a deep, emotional level in the books. Because if Jo says they understand each other, than I'm taking that at face value. If she says Ginny is his ideal girl, then that's good enough for me because she created the characters and she knows them better than I do. I didn't go into these books expecting a romance story, and I'm still not expecting an intimate look into Harry's romantic relationship in DH. It's just alien to the nature of the books to me.
I think a lot of people have read too much fanfiction which tends to really focus on the romance, and have built up too many expectations for how things could be. Sure, Jo could write many long conversations between Harry and Ginny about their hopes and dreams and what they want to get out of life (besides the whole defeating Voldemort thing) and their future together, but those kinds of conversations would just stick out at awkward angles in canon.
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Thom Matheson - Mar 6, 2007 6:33 pm (#1598 of 1858)
Eponine, I agree with you as well but would venture to go further. There is only one character that we get to know intimately, Harry Potter. As Eponine pointed out, shipping is a byproduct of the reader and their desires, and then how they go on to defend them. We have been told over and over that the books were not written with any serious love interests taking place. Just the surface stuff that would be associated with normal teenage growing up. The fact that they are all in a coeducational school away from home just brings it out a bit quicker.
Being hard on Ginny because of the way she is written is a compliment to Rowlings writting. She leaves a lot of her characters open to their own interpretations. I personally love the Lucius Malfoy character the way it is written. The same as I do Molly Weasley. Both are complex and both dearly defend their positions.
I see Ginny as a way for us to learn more about Harry, because, after all this series is about him. His "break up" at the end of HBP is another case of being noble to a degree, and I can see him thinking that. At the same time I see Ginny telling him to stuff it and Harry finally secumbing to her wishes, just as he did in OoP. Ginny for me is supporting Harry, because she chooses to. The same with Ron and Hermione.
Die, I also have daughters and a son, but I would not match them up with the Harry Potter series as a model for their future any more then you do. As I said in my opening, it is WE that take shipping far more seriously then needed. I love the thread here because of that, not in spite of it. Take heart, it is all in good fun. You have well documented how you feel about Molly and Ginny. All I can say is Good for you. You stand by your belief as a reader and as a person. I feel the same about that murdering Snape. Also well documented. We all must tip our caps to Rowling for making us feel the way we do. See you in line for the finale.
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 6, 2007 8:02 pm (#1599 of 1858)
It is because that so much is from Harry's point of view that this bothers me. If any relationship should have been shown, not told, it's this one. I think it's poor writing. Jo is good at many things, bless her, but romance is not apparently one of them.
You shouldn't have to read interviews to be able to see what's going on with characters in a story. That, if it's a really good story, should be in the text.
Strange how Snape and Ginny do the most polarizing, isn't it?
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Sunny Baudelaire - Mar 6, 2007 11:23 pm (#1600 of 1858)
We won't know whether or not Jo can write romance, until she writes an adult novel which includes a romantic subplot. Harry Potter is a children's book series and has as much 'romance' as it can without turning off the series' pre-teen fans.
One the the newest quotes on Quick Quotes Quill includes this comment from Jo: And in growing older Harry will encounter girls, a situation which will demand a delicate balancing act from Rowling. "Although a lot of readers may grow along with Harry, there could be others in the future, who at the age of nine or 10 read the entire series in 12 months.
I don't know how to post links, but here is the address: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Yes, as readers we know Harry the best. Then I would say we know Ron, Neville, Ginny and Hermione.
We know alot about Ginny that isn't just 'Harry centric'. We know she broke into the broom closet at the age of 6 because she wanted to learn how to play Quidditch, but her brothers wouldn't let her. We know she loves and missed her brothers when they went off to Hogwarts without her because we saw her cry and chase after the train.
She doesn't only defend Harry, we've seen her defend Neville. "You're not a nobody". She defended her mother and father by spraying Percy's glasses with mashed parsnips when he ripped their heart out at Christmas. We also saw her defending Hermione when Ron accused her of lying about having a date to the Yule Ball.
And of course she defends herself. From Zacharias Smith who was pestering her to relive the details of a night she and her friends could have been killed or implying she only got on the Quidditch team by knowing the captain.
We know she loves cats. We know she loves pets in general; she owns a Pigmy Puff and named Ron's Owl Pigwidgeon.
We know that she put her studies ahead of spending time with Harry. Harry and Ginny's time together was becoming increasingly restricted. Ginny's O.W.L.s were approaching and she was therefore forced to study for hours into the night.
That is just a sample of things we know about Ginny that aren't 'Harry centric'.
I have read every review of Half-Blood Prince that I could find (from professional book reviewers, not on-line fandom), and not one of them had a bad thing to say about Harry's girl friend or how his relationship with her was not written well. In fact, HBP was Jo's best reviewed book since Prisoner of Azkaban.
The only complaints about "Jo told us instead of showed us" have come from on-line fandom, and I can take a good guess why.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Before Jo debunked it, I liked the idea of Luna and Neville together. I still think they'd be cute together, but I'm not wasting energy over wishing it would happen in the books. Personally, I think Luna is unlikely to end up in a relationship in canon.
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Gatorgrad1991 - Feb 19, 2007 11:04 am (#1552 of 1858)
Eponine said: Personally, I think Luna is unlikely to end up in a relationship in canon.
I agree, wholeheartedly. It's not like these are romance novels, where everyone must be paired off for a Happily Ever After at the end. And Luna is, in many ways, a true individual. She doesn't need a "mate".
I like Luna with either Fred or George in fanon, though.
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peachespig - Feb 19, 2007 11:16 am (#1553 of 1858)
Gatorgrad: why not both?
Seriously, I also agree that Luna may end up unpaired (Neville as well, though I can kind of see the epilogue telling us that 5 years later he married Susan Bones or something). For Luna it is still not easy to even have friends; I think that should probably come before a romance. And assuming she lives, I kind of expect at the end of DH that it will be made clear Luna's been fully accepted into the extended family of the main characters.
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Sunny Baudelaire - Feb 19, 2007 4:05 pm (#1554 of 1858)
Well, Luna would not have been in the original epilogue because Jo wrote that in 1990, and I'm convinced that Luna was a late addition to Order of the Phoenix. I also think that the fact that we've never been given her birthday puts her on par with characters like Dean Thomas, Seamus Finnegan, the Patil twins, Lavender Brown, Susan Bones, Ernie MacMillan, etc. etc. Jo certainly is not going to go into the future life of every character. So we may never find out about Luna in the epilogue.
But, I confess, my opinion may be biased due to my not fully understanding the love that a section of fandom has for her character.
Peachespig - I like your Dudgood name. (Wonder if x-ray will allow me to be first mate.)
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peachespig - Feb 19, 2007 5:39 pm (#1555 of 1858)
Thanks Sunny B, and I'm sure xray will be needing all the shipmates he can get!
I definitely agree about the likelihood of Luna being a late addition, but I would not quite put her with those other characters you mention. The thing about Luna is that she has fought in the end battle in each of the last two books -- she's participated in the main dramatic plot. Pretty much all those other characters are only involved in the growing-up plot and didn't participate in the fights. She responded to the DA summons when Neville was the only other person to do so in HBP. I think that raises her profile.
So Jo might have had to make it up in the last few years, but I think we will hear something about Luna's future, if she survives.
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Rosie Lu - Feb 19, 2007 10:03 pm (#1556 of 1858)
I also thought it'd be Neville/Luna until Jo shut that down, and in HBP Neville and Luna were always together, so if she hadn't shut it down, I'd probably still be expecting it.
Now, I'm worried Luna or Neville are going to die. *wibble* But hopefully they won't. I'd be crushed if they did. If they do survive, I don't expect we'll learn who they marry, unless it's someone like peachespig suggested and happens down the road. I'd actually like to see Neville get with someone sweet like Susan Bones, or maybe Hannah Abbott.
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Rosie Lu - Feb 20, 2007 4:45 am (#1557 of 1858)
Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 27, 2007 2:27 am
This post is in response to a now deleted post by member BrandyCane that read:
"You don't battle Death Eaters in two seperate battles and come out practically unscathed too often. And the fact that we don't know Luna's birthday makes me believe all the more that there's something very special about Luna.
We don't know Dumbledore's birthday, as well; and I see Dumbledore and Luna as mirror-images of each other.
But, be that as it may - this is a shipping thread, and I'm way off course, here.
So, in parting, remember this: POTTY LURVES LOONY!" - SE Jones
We don't know Dumbledore's birthday, as well; and I see Dumbledore and Luna as mirror-images of each other.
Dumbledore died, which is why I don't think Dumbledore got a birthday. I don't think Sirius got one either, though I'd have to double check.
I don't take this as proof Luna will die, btw, although, as I said above, I do worry. I certainly don't want Luna to die, but that's why I believe Dumbledore never got one.
I'm sorry if I'm mistaken, but I've never understood why people take shipping so seriously. It baffles me.
By your last sentence, I take it you prefer Harry/Luna. That's fine, and I see nothing wrong with that ship at all, although I don't see it in the books (Harry is clearly destined to be with Ginny if he lives), but I'm sure it's a fun ship to enjoy in fanfiction, much like I'm sure Neville/Luna shippers still do. It's no reason to take your aggressions out on a fictional character.
- This post was edited to remove comments that lead to inappropriate discussion. Remember everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Play nice, everyone. - SE Jones
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Eponine - Feb 20, 2007 6:46 am (#1558 of 1858)
Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 23, 2007 1:13 pm
This discussion seem to be veering a bit off topic. Whether or not Luna lives or dies has nothing to do with shipping (although, I'm firmly in the "I don't know" camp).
Let's stick to actual shipping discussion, so the mods don't feel the need to warn us.
So, at what point will Ron and Hermione officially be a couple?
- This post was edited to remove part of a discussion that was deleted from other posts. - SE Jones
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Rosie Lu - Feb 20, 2007 7:05 am (#1559 of 1858)
So, at what point will Ron and Hermione officially be a couple?
Hopefully at Bill and Fleur's wedding, so it'll ease the tension between them and make the horcrux hunt less stressful romance-wise.
I think it'll be important that Harry has both of them there by his side, helping him in all the ways they can. I saw Ron and Hermione as very much a unit at the end of HBP, set-up to help Harry, and this was after the Lavender stuff. So, I'm hoping their couple-hood will happen at the wedding. But who knows, maybe Jo would rather hold off until closer to the end. We still have to see Krum, I believe.
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Eponine - Feb 20, 2007 7:26 am (#1560 of 1858)
Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 26, 2007 7:44 pm
This post is in response to a now deleted post member BrandyCane that read:
"You claim to not understand why people take shipping so seriously, yet you believe that Harry & Ginny, in your words, are destined to be together...if he lives, that is.
A bit contradictive, don't you think?
Yes, I adore Harry/Luna. They seem to bring out the best in one another, and if Harry were to survive & move on with his life, I would love for him to have a woman as ethereally beautiful as Luna." - SE Jones
I don't take shipping that seriously either, but I also believe that Harry and Ginny are destined to be together because I believe that Jo wrote them that way. And in the Potterverse, Jo is destiny. If for some reason, H/G didn't happen, I wouldn't be that devastated. It's just a book. It's possible to not be a serious shipper and still be certain that two characters are going to be together.
I am a bit curious where it says that Luna is ethereally beautiful in canon, though. I can't recall any physical descriptions of her other than her having straggly, dirty blonde hair and protuberant silvery eyes. Was there a description of her that I missed in the books somewhere?
- This post was edited to remove part of a discussion that was deleted from other posts. - SE Jones
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Rosie Lu - Feb 20, 2007 8:09 am (#1561 of 1858)
Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 23, 2007 1:33 pm
You claim to not understand why people take shipping so seriously, yet you believe that Harry & Ginny, in your words, are destined to be together...if he lives, that is.
A bit contradictive, don't you think?
No, because I don't care that much. But, the books and Jo herself point to a H/G pairing, and I don't see a point in arguing against that. In all honesty, what I care more about is Harry living and being happy. The books had him happy with her in HBP, so I'm happy with that. Just as I'm happy with the R/Hr pairing.
- This post was edited to remove a response to an inappropriate discussion that had already been deleted. - SE Jones
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Luna Logic - Feb 20, 2007 8:28 am (#1562 of 1858)
from the other side (of the Channel)
One argument against an eventual Luna shipping (sorry if the expression is not correct, I'm not a great expert at this matter!):
in the books JKR doesn't show us a single boy taking a (shipping) interest in Luna.
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xray - Feb 20, 2007 8:55 am (#1563 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 26, 2007 7:48 pm
Brandy Cane, as others have pointed out elsewhere in this forum, Luna has the mind of a child in her oblivious serenity like persona and her blind anti-logic beliefs. Is this why you call her ethereal beauty? I honestly have not seen Harry and Luna interact in any way that would imply that they bring out the best in each other, much less show affection.
- Edited to remove a response to a now deleted post. - SE Jones
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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 20, 2007 10:25 am (#1564 of 1858)
Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 23, 2007 1:43 pm
I do not think Ginny is sweet and adorable at all, and that fact is well known. I think she's a whining bore. I am a Dead Harry person, but if we're going to talk about the possibility of something happening to Ginny instead then I suppose I could go for an H/L ship as well. Luna is connected to the thestrals, but that doesn't have to mean death. Harry could change his mind about her exactly the way he changed his mind about them. He wonders how he could ever have thought them ugly at one point, does he not? And he never really called Luna ugly anyway, anymore than he's called Ginny pretty. It never happened.
Part of my anti-H/G stance I concede is probably film contamination. Most of Ginny's good scenes that could be hints for an H/G ship have been cut, such as the scene where Ron suggests Harry ask her to the ball, and the scene where she does not have a good time with Neville at the ball. Luna has gotten extra stuff she didn't already have, such as the scene where she and Harry go for a walk in the woods and she explains thestrals to him, and H/L fans I know are enjoying that. Jo approves the scripts. I can't help but wonder why these things are happening.
- This post was edited to remove comments from a previously deleted discussion. - SE Jones
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Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 20, 2007 6:16 pm (#1565 of 1858)
Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 23, 2007 1:56 pm
In terms of relationships, I tend to think that J.K. Rowling has given deliberate thought to the construction of the various relationships and constricted them with due diligence being given to those actions, feelings, and emotions that are explicitly illustrated for the benefit of the readers, and those actions, feelings that are implied by context.
- This post was edited to remove a response to a now deleted discussion. - SE Jones
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Rosie Lu - Feb 20, 2007 7:58 pm (#1566 of 1858)
Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 23, 2007 1:59 pm
So far, in the books, what scene between a couple has been your favorite? I quite like the Mollywobbles scene with Molly and Arthur in HBP. ;D
- This post was edited to remove a response to a now deleted discussion. - SE Jones
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Eponine - Feb 20, 2007 8:02 pm (#1567 of 1858)
I adore the Mollywobbles scene. I always picture Arthur standing on the other side of the door, saying, "To find out how airplanes stay up" (or whatever it was that he said close to that) in this sort of childish excitement/wonderment way. Molly and Arthur are just precious, and I loved Harry's embarrassed reaction to the mollywobbles bit.
I also really liked Fleur's statement about being beautiful enough for the both of them. She was really quite annoying throughout the book, but you can tell she really loves Bill there.
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xray - Feb 20, 2007 8:05 pm (#1568 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Oooh, Fleur's statement floored me. Really, my jaw dropped.
Then Molly's response... oh man if I was a girl I'd have cried.
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Rosie Lu - Feb 20, 2007 8:12 pm (#1569 of 1858)
Fleur's statement was the best. I love Fleur, she's really quite oblivious to the fact that Molly can't stand her, but then she goes and says that! It was the the sweetest and funniest line in the book.
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journeymom - Feb 20, 2007 8:20 pm (#1570 of 1858)
Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 23, 2007 2:00 pm
I'm a girl and I was a wet mess throughout that scene. (I was a wet mess throughout most of the last portion of the book.) I just remind myself that Fleur was a TriWizard champion and Bill loves her for a reason.
- This post was edited to remove a response to a now deleted discussion. - SE Jones
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History2010 - Feb 20, 2007 10:41 pm (#1571 of 1858)
So far, in the books, what scene between a couple has been your favorite?
I have to say that my favorite scene is between Ron and Hermione, when Hermione fixes Ron's essay after he uses the "Spell-Check" Quill, and he says, "I love you, Hermione."
As it's my OTP, it's a great squee-worthy moment, and then it's also just something that Ron says to her without thinking about it. It's a great moment.
I also like the "Mollywobbles" moment.
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Thom Matheson - Feb 20, 2007 10:59 pm (#1572 of 1858)
Mine is the Hermione/Ron line, " (no book here) Ronald you have the emotionly something the size of a teaspoon". Don't remember all of it but I can imagine them sitting around the table with all their friends 20 years later and saying that like some loving squabbling couple. Right up there with Arthur and Molly. Remember the Princess Bride scene with Billy Crystal? Squabbling couple again, but in a loving way.
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Sunny Baudelaire - Feb 20, 2007 11:11 pm (#1573 of 1858)
I liked Hermione calling Ron "Mr. Master of Mystery" in HBP, it just barely beats out the "emotional range of a teaspoon" line for me.
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Thom Matheson - Feb 20, 2007 11:18 pm (#1574 of 1858)
Is that like McGonnagal's "bunch of babbling babboons"?
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Jadelollipop - Feb 21, 2007 4:59 am (#1575 of 1858)
So far, in the books, what scene between a couple has been your favorite? Do I have to pick just one? I love the end of HBP with Fleur's declaration but that is about Bill and to Molly... another couple there is Remus and Tonks There are several for Ron and Hermione to choose from but I love the scene in GOF
Ron: Hermione, Neville's right You are a girl Hermione: Oh well spotted!... Just because its taken you 3 years to notice, Ron, doesn't mean no one else has spotted I'm a girl
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Gatorgrad1991 - Feb 21, 2007 5:41 am (#1576 of 1858)
Rosie Lu: So far, in the books, what scene between a couple has been your favorite?
There are so many! Like others I loved "Mollywobbles". I thought it made a beautiful and sweet counterpoint to all of the times we see Molly being somewhat overbearing. And it makes it clear how much she and Arthur love each other.
Fleur's flair-up in the hospital wing was brilliant as well. She declares her love for Bill in such a straightforward manner, as if to say how dare anyone question it.
I like the Harry/Ginny break-up scene at the end soooooooooooooooo much. It shows how they relate to each other so well, especially when Harry thinks that Ginny won't argue with him about his decision. It really is amazing how JKR gives you such a strong sense of how well they know each other with so few words.
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Good Evans - Feb 21, 2007 8:52 am (#1577 of 1858)
Practically perfect in every way
Rosie Lu - can I suggest that you suggest this as a vote option on the vote thread? You will need to pick out some scenes as te options but could leave in a "other - please state which" option.
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Die Zimtzicke - Feb 21, 2007 12:55 pm (#1578 of 1858)
Edited by S.E. Jones Feb 23, 2007 2:03 pm
I have very few romantic moments that I can actually say I liked. I don't think romance is Jo's strong point, and most of them, especially in HBP are like reading bad fanfic. But Fleur standing up to Molly was overdue and a classic.
- This post was edited to remove a response to a now deleted discussion. - SE Jones
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haymoni - Feb 21, 2007 1:00 pm (#1579 of 1858)
I still cry everytime I get to that part, but I don't cry over Dumbledore anymore. Odd.
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journeymom - Feb 21, 2007 3:51 pm (#1580 of 1858)
"I liked Hermione calling Ron "Mr. Master of Mystery" in HBP, it just barely beats out the "emotional range of a teaspoon" line for me."
Sunny, I don't remember that line! Where is it from?
"Babbling, bumbling, bunch of baboons." Repeat several times.
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Catherine - Feb 21, 2007 3:52 pm (#1581 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
Edited Feb 23, 2007 3:07 pm
I realize that this thread has moved on, so please do not allow this post to disrupt a good discussion, but....
There have been some inappropriate comments on this thread. If these continue, I will have this thread locked until folks cool off.
I will be watching this thread very closely, and folks in violation of our Forum guidelines may expect an email from me.
Play nicely.
And back to the regularly scheduled discussion....
If you have questions or comments about this post, DO NOT post to this thread. Instead, email me at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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EDIT: I am assuming that Host S.E. Jones left this post intact because she had to edit this thread for inappropriate and off-topic posts. Thank you to all of the HPLF members who tried to keep the discussion "on track" and civil.--Catherine
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Sunny Baudelaire - Feb 21, 2007 4:40 pm (#1582 of 1858)
journeymom, It was in the Chapter 'Draco's Detour'. Hermione had just come out of Borgin and Burkes unsuccessful in her attempt to find out what Malfoy was trying to purchase. Ron said something about her being too obvious and her retort was something along the lines of "well do it yourself Mr. Master of Mystery." Then they bickered all the way back to Fred and George's shop.
Some people would say that doesn't qualify as a romantic moment, but I disagree!
(The quotes were paraphrased. I don't have my book handy.)
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xray - Feb 28, 2007 12:19 am (#1583 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Someone once said this to me in a different forum prior to HBP: "That is something I don't get. H/G possibility? Where? I don't see anything that could lead to a H/G romance"
I've seen some people lamenting how they never saw Harry/Ginny coming; that it was so sudden without buildup. I beg to differ. Here is some of the H/G development I see throughout the books prior to HBP.
Sorcerer's Stone (Philosopher's Stone)
We see Ginny as Harry arrives at the train station and again when he's disembarking from the train at the end… why? Initially, she's very outgoing and forceful.
Chamber of Secrets
(CoS, Scholastic Press, Ch. 3: The Burrow, p43)
At that moment there was a diversion in the form of a small, redheaded figure in a long nightdress, who appeared in the kitchen, gave a small squeal, and ran out again.
"Ginny," said Ron in an undertone to Harry. "My sister. She's been talking about you all summer."
(p50)
On the third landing, a door stood ajar. Harry just caught sight of a pair of bright brown eyes staring at him before it closed with a snap.
"Ginny," said Ron. "You don't know how weird it is for her to be this shy. She never shuts up normally —"
(p53)
He and Ron went down to breakfast to find Mr. and Mrs. Weasley and Ginny already sitting at the kitchen table. The moment she saw Harry, Ginny accidentally knocked her porridge bowl to the floor with a loud clatter. Ginny seemed very prone to knocking things over whenever Harry entered a room. She dived under the table to retrieve the bowl and emerged with her face glowing like the setting sun. Pretending he hadn't noticed this, Harry sat down and took the toast Mrs. Weasley offered him.
(p55)
"Oh, are you starting at Hogwarts this year?" Harry asked Ginny. She nodded, blushing to the roots of her flaming hair, and put her elbow in the butter dish. Fortunately no one saw this except Harry
It's interesting how we get exposed to Ginny here. So far it's all Ginny->Harry.
(CoS, Scholastic Press, Ch. 4: At Flourish and Blotts, p76)
"Famous Harry Potter," said Malfoy. "Can't even go into a bookshop without making the front page."
"Leave him alone, he didn't want all that!" said Ginny. It was the first time she had spoken in front of Harry. She was glaring at Malfoy.
"Potter, you've got yourself a girlfriend!" drawled Malfoy. Ginny went scarlet as Ron and Hermione fought their way over, both clutching stacks of Lockhart's books.
Ruh Roh... Draco said the G word.
(CoS, Scholastic Press, Ch 13: The Very Secret Diary, p302)
Hot all over at the thought of being given a valentine in front of a line of first years, which happened to include Ginny Weasley, Harry tried to escape.
( p304)
Malfoy was looking furious, and as Ginny passed him to enter her classroom, he yelled spitefully after her, "I don't think Potter liked your valentine much!"
Ginny covered her face with her hands and ran into class.
(CoS, Scholastic Press, Ch. 17: The Heir of Slytherin, p392)
"The diary," said Riddle. "My diary. Little Ginny's been writing in it for months and months, telling me all her pitiful worries and woes - how her brothers tease her, how she had to come to school with secondhand robes and books, how" —Riddle's eyes glinted "how she didn't think famous, good, great Harry Potter would ever like her…."
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
(PoA, Scholastic Press, Ch. 4: The Leaky Cauldron, p62)
Ginny, who had always been very taken with Harry, seemed even more heartily embarrassed than usual when she saw him, perhaps because he had saved her life during their previous year and muttered "hello" without looking at him.
(PoA, Scholastic Press, Ch. 5: The Dementor, p71)
"Ah, there's Penelope!" said Percy, smoothing his hair and going Pink again. Ginny caught Harry's eye, and they both turned away to hide their laughter as Percy strode over to a girl with long, curly hair, walking with his chest thrown out so that she couldn't miss his shiny badge stood back to let him on.
(PoA, Scholastic Press, Ch. 10: The Marauder's Map, p183)
He had a stream of visitors, all intent on cheering him up. Hagrid sent him a bunch of earwiggy flowers that looked like yellow cabbages, and Ginny Weasley, blushing furiously, turned up with a get-well card she had made herself.
That last one is quite interesting. Ginny seldom appears in PoA. We see her on page 86 shaking like mad after the dementors appeared on the train. (The only one affected worse was Harry.) She reappears only twice more: on page 160 where they discover the portrait of the Fat Lady slashed and on page 183 as illustrated above when she brings her homemade get-well card. It seems as if JKR is going out of her way to give Ginny cameos to keep up the Ginny—>Harry story line. She's certainly doing her best to keep them apart. My guess is so that they don't develop a sibling like relationship similar to what has developed between Harry and Hermione. I can still see the grimace on Jo Rowling's face in when Couric suggested it. Harry and Hermione? Eww!
(continued next post)
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xray - Feb 28, 2007 12:22 am (#1584 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
(continued from previous post)
Goblet of Fire
(GoF, Scholastic Press, Ch. 5, Weasleys' Wizard Wheezes, p54)
Then two girls appeared in the kitchen doorway behind Mrs. Weasley. One, with very bushy brown hair and rather large front teeth, was Harry's and Ron's friend, Hermione Granger. The other, who was small and red-haired, was Ron's younger sister, Ginny. Both of them smiled at Harry, who grinned back, which made Ginny go scarlet — she had been very taken with Harry ever since his first visit to the Burrow.
Isn't that interesting. JKR repeats what she said in PoA… that Ginny was always very taken with Harry.
(GoF, Scholastic Press, Ch. 22: The Unexpected Task, p399)
"I asked [Cho] to go with me just now," Harry said dully, "and she told me."
Ginny had suddenly stopped smiling.
(p401)
"Right," said Ron, who looked extremely put out, "this is getting stupid. Ginny, you can go with Harry, and I'll just -"
"I can't," said Ginny, and she went scarlet too. "I'm going with - with Neville. He asked me when Hermione said no, and I thought… well…. I'm not going to be able to go otherwise, I'm not in fourth year." She looked extremely miserable. "I think I'll go and have dinner," she said, and she got up and walked off to the portrait hole, her head bowed.
Poor Ginny. She looked extremely miserable for missing an opportunity to go with Harry to the ball. Can't you just feel her pain? Yet, as bad as she wants to go, we see some strong, significant character development… she's true to her word. She doesn't blow off Neville… she agreed to go with him. Sigh. Poor Ginny. She must really feel miserable.
Order of the Phoenix
In OotP Ginny's character grows tremendously. She overcomes her crush and is able to face Harry on a more peer-to-peer level.
(OotP, Scholastic Press, Ch. 4: Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place, p69) "Oh, hello, Harry!" said Ron's younger sister, Ginny, brightly. "I thought I heard your voice."
Do you notice how Rowling seems to force the word brightly in there?
(Ch. 9: The Woes of Mrs. Weasley, p170)
[Tonks'] hair was tomato red and waist-length today; she looked like Ginny's older sister.
Tonks' description (Ch. 3: The Advance Guard, p47):
She looked the youngest there; she had a pale heart-shaped face, dark twinkling eyes, and short spiky hair that was a violent shade of violet.
(Ch. 23: Christmas on the Closed Ward, p509)
"Well, hello there!" he said. "I expect you'd like my autograph, would you?"
"Hasn't changed much, has he?" Harry muttered to Ginny, who grinned.
(Ch. 38: The Second War Begins, p848)
Ginny caught Harry's eye and looked away quickly, grinning.
At the very end of OotP, Ron hints toward H/G for book 6:
(OotP, Scholastic Press, Ch. 38: The Second War Begins, p866, Ron speaking to Ginny about her now ex-bf, Michael Corner)
"Michael—but—" said Ron, craning around in his seat to stare at her. "But you were going out with him!"
"Not any more," said Ginny resolutely. "He didn't like Gryffindor beating Ravenclaw at Quidditch, and got really sulky, so I ditched him and he ran off to comfort Cho instead." She scratched her nose absently with the end of her quill, turned The Quibbler upsidedown and began marking her answers. Ron looked highly delighted.
"Well, I always thought he was a bit of an idiot," he said, prodding his queen forwards towards Harry's quivering castle. "Good for you. Just choose someone—better—next time."
He cast Harry an oddly furtive look as he said it.
Jo Rowling recently let us know that Ginny was one of her favorite characters. We also know that Ginny is a very forceful character (from the World Book Chat in March). Some of the most telling "evidence" is found in this Time Pacific interview.
And what about Ginny [Ron's younger sister]? Poor Ginny, languishing in love for Harry, and he's merrily asking out other girls right under her nose! But that's just a boy thing."
She reinforces a scene directly from Goblet of Fire where Harry asks Cho to the Yule Ball right under Ginny's nose (see above). But even more remarkable than that quote is the context in which it was provided. In that interview, Rowling is talking about the trio and their relationships. It is strictly about Harry, Ron, and Hermione. Then, out of the blue, she throws in that bit about Ginny. I recommend you read the entire interview. She wasn't asked a question about Ginny. It was all about Harry, Ron, Hermione, and in particular Harry's faults. Rowling just blurted it out.
xray
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lobelia - Feb 28, 2007 12:14 pm (#1585 of 1858)
Fabulous Job. It looks like you have a great start to an editorial. I think what surprised me was the change in Harry toward Ginny. I think that you only see it in HBP when they have time to begin to be friends. I think he always counted on her as part of the Weasley family and cared for in the way he cared for Fred and George. How does familial love become "crush" love? I think the first time he thought of Ginny in that way was when he overheard Zambini retelling the events with the intial meeting with Slughorn. He mentions that a lot of boys find her pretty.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 1, 2007 4:59 pm (#1586 of 1858)
Let it snow!
xray --I've seen some people lamenting how they never saw Harry/Ginny coming; that it was so sudden without buildup. I beg to differ. Here is some of the H/G development I see throughout the books prior to HBP.--
Well, as one of the people lamenting the lack of buildup to the Harry/Ginny relationship, let me offer my perspective. It's not that the books are lacking proof/buildup/whatever that Ginny has romantic feelings for Harry (as you so aptly proved, xray), it's that the books are lacking buildup of Harry having feelings for Ginny. His feelings are the one that seemed to bloom out of nowhere, which may have been what Jo was going for, but I just don't care for the way she told that part of the story. If she wanted to build them up as friends first so Harry could get Cho out of his system, fine, but you'd think an author would still want to slowly leave clues to a future romance with Ginny (especially considering how much Jo loves her clues). I've read other books that do this very well, one in particular has the couple start out as friends but with the girl having a crush on the guy. The guy continues to see the girl as friendly, younger female friend and nothing more until one day he notices how pretty her hair looks (Jo showed this with Ron and Hermione when Ron notices the change in Hermione's front teeth), but thinks nothing more about it. The guy keeps noting things like this about the girl but she doesn't become a focus of romantic interest until he sees someone else focusing on her in that fashion (Jo again did this very well with Ron and Hermione). Why couldn't Harry have noted that Ginny was very pretty earlier in the books without attaching romantic significance to the comment, then mention an uneasy feeling when he sees her with Corner, which he dismisses, then noticing the way she smells (which is the first actual hint of any building romantic feeling that we actually do get), then buildup even more to actual jealousy when he sees her with Dean. Skipping straight to "hey, she smells good; how dare Dean touch her" just seems to drastic a leap to me. I mean, I could believe it if Dean were the first boy to see her as a romantic interest which peaked Harry's jealousy (similar to what happened with Ron and Hermione), but that isn't the case as we have Micheal Corner from the year before. Maybe I'm just disappointed because Ron and Hermione's relationship development was so well done and Harry and Ginny's seems like an afterthought in comparison (which I know it isn't supposed to, which just disappoints me more).....
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MickeyCee3948 - Mar 1, 2007 9:04 pm (#1587 of 1858)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
As you say, he had to get Cho out of his system. He also considers Ginny off limits because she is Ron's sister. He also has a somewhat brotherly affection for Ginny which he had to get over.
I see that the story has progressed normally for teenagers. It usually doesn't take a couple of years for their relationships to develop. As a matter of fact some change relationships as often as they change their pants.
Of course, I'm not referring to anyone with the intellect and good sense to be involved with the forum. LOL "smile"
Mickey
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lobelia - Mar 2, 2007 10:51 am (#1588 of 1858)
I'm with you S.E. Jones. I loved the relationship with Ron and Hermoine. Still not really sure are we......, but in Harry's mind Ginny just sort of went from friend and familial figure to monster in the chest jealousy. I think the directness and the briskness of it is what is disappointing. We know Ginny has always had a thing for Harry, but shouldn't she of been surprised when Harry suddenly kissed her after winning the game? The beginning of the written relationship seemed forced for me. That being said, I love Ginny's character and there seems to be no better match for Harry. I actually like that JKR had them break up at the end of HBP. The story line can focus on the fight and not on romantic meetings in tea shops.
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Jadelollipop - Mar 2, 2007 11:03 am (#1589 of 1858)
But Harry did notice her in earlier books. "Bright brown eyes" in COS Vivid Weasley Hair (COS)...Long dancing hair (OOTP) eyes reflecting firelight, curled up like a cat, watched her walk away (OOTP)... He also attempted to speak to her on various occasions...With Harry it was always going to be a "struck by lightning" moment
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xray - Mar 2, 2007 11:43 am (#1590 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
the books are lacking buildup of Harry having feelings for Ginny. His feelings are the one that seemed to bloom out of nowhere, which may have been what Jo was going for, but I just don't care for the way she told that part of the story. - S.E. Jones
I agree with you a little bit. I too would have liked to see Harry sticking his elbow in the butter dish but I'm not disappointed with how Jo wrote Harry->Ginny in HBP. How does one write the buildup to a crush when you're inside his head all the time to begin with? It's tough because it never happens that way. A guy's feelings for someone who's already rather close to him may develop slowly but he doesn't realize it until there's a sudden epiphany. It's not an incremental process: first she's nice, then she's sweet, then she's cute, then she's cute + a little bit, then she's cute + a little bit more, then pretty, then pretty plus I like her, then pretty + .... One day you notice how pretty, sweet, and cute she is, then you find yourself trying to be near her a little more than before and suddenly it's a full blown crush with I can't stop thinking about her. Harry always saw Ginny in a positive light and even back in OotP we saw some signs of Harry noticing Ginny... the chocolate in the library scene comes to mind. There weren't a lot, but it's not like there was nothing.
Why couldn't Harry have noted that Ginny was very pretty earlier in the books without attaching romantic significance to the comment,
Didn't this happen? On the train when Harry was hiding in Draco's compartment.
then mention an uneasy feeling when he sees her with Corner, which he dismisses, then noticing the way she smells (which is the first actual hint of any building romantic feeling that we actually do get), then buildup even more to actual jealousy when he sees her with Dean.
Yeah, it sure would have been fun to see it written like that but in reality it doesn't, at least not from the inside. If the story were being told from a different point of view than Harry's we'd probably have seen it like we did for Ron and Hermione. Hermione definitely noticed something was up and ... well, girls gossip.
Ginny just sort of went from friend and familial figure to monster in the chest jealousy. - lobelia
I don't think he went to familial figure at all. I think Jo intentionally kept them apart to avoid that very perception.
We know Ginny has always had a thing for Harry, but shouldn't she of been [sic] surprised when Harry suddenly kissed her after winning the game?
No, definitely not. Ginny knew how Harry felt thanks to Hermione. Smart girl that Hermione.
I agree with both of you that there could have been a little more buildup, but to say there was none is wrong. I'm not disappointed with what we were given, not at all.
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Sunny Baudelaire - Mar 2, 2007 12:53 pm (#1591 of 1858)
I laugh when I hear people say that "Harry and Ginny were sudden." Believe me, for those of us expecting this pair since book 1, it was a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG Wait!
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Hoot Owl - Mar 3, 2007 3:00 pm (#1592 of 1858)
Teacher
Why should Ginny have been surprised? Hadn't Harry been looking at her and treating her a bit differently all year? Looking annoyed when she left him on the train to sit with Dean. Reassuring her that he was not taking orders from a book, even before she asked. Asking her to go to Hogsmead with him. Hermione probably did tip her off that Harry seemed very interested in Ginny's relationship. Not to mention the month or so after her breakup when Harry couldn't stop himself from looking at her, talking with her, laughing with her, walking her back after practice!
She ran across the common room, with "a hard blazing look on her face" and threw her arms around his neck. If he hadn't kissed her, I think, maybe, she was going to kiss him! I think she was tired of waiting! After all four year is along time, especially when you are fifteen.
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sstabeler - Mar 3, 2007 3:27 pm (#1593 of 1858)
Hoot owl, i agree to a point.I get the impression Ginny didn't notice the subtle glances, or at least their true meaning. I agree that she wanted to force Harry to decide though. If she had thrown her arms around him in a hug, I would have though she was just celebrating the win with her Captain. but throwing her arms around his neck, I believe means she would have kissed Harry if he hadn't. She might have been surprised he managed to get in a kiss first though.
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Wanda - Mar 4, 2007 10:54 am (#1594 of 1858)
Editor
I agree, Sunny (nods fervently)! I've been waiting for Harry and Ginny to get together since Book 1 too.
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Sticky Glue - Mar 4, 2007 1:14 pm (#1595 of 1858)
Yep, so have I
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 6, 2007 4:14 pm (#1596 of 1858)
For people who have been hoping for this snog session since the characters were ten and eleven, it must seem odd that anyone could see anything wrong with it, but I'm going to try again to explain what's wrong with it as I see it, so people can refute or agree with my points as they will.
Ginny is apparently made for Harry, and from what I have been told, made to fit his life, but to me that makes her inherently subservient to him, despite Jo's comment about them being equals. Other characters have problems, ambitions, desires and feelings that extend beyond Harry, but Ginny does not. Everything about her revolves around him, either getting him to notice her, or supporting him, or just being what he wants her to be. Ginny is too Harry-centric to interest me as a character. I don't see the personality other people seem to see, because it's all about liking Harry, getting noticed by Harry, making Harry jealous or defending Harry. She's not really becoming a more interesting character, or more prominent, or even more powerful, for anything of her own. Her journey, as Jo described it, seems to be solely concerned with arriving at a point where she is Harry' idealized love interest. She's perfect for him because he needs someone who is perfect for him,because HE deserves some happiness.
So she's been made perfect for him, but what does she get out of it? How does he fulfill her? That's what I want to know as a woman, a mom and a mother of both daughters and sons. She's supposed to support Harry and serve his wants and needs, but does she ever think about what she needs? Does he care what she thinks? Is she even a person in her own right?
I have to say no. He doesn't confide in her. He doesn't tell her what's really bothering him, and see if she can relate. He forgets the most traumatic experience of her life that he knows of...the diary. He brushes her off when she asks him pointed questions about a possibly enchanted book he's dealing with. And he breaks up with her because of how HE would feel if it were her funeral.
I don't buy it's an equal relationship, or that she has developed a personality of her own. I don't see it on the page. In a relationship I want to see people who can negotiate, and work together, and become better people when they are together, who have consideration for EACH OTHER'S needs. Tom Riddle spent more time listening to and talking to Ginny than Harry did, canonically, and that's sad. When he talked about how she felt and confided in him, I at least believed him, even if it was for nefarious purposes.
So I don't like Ginny with Harry, plain and simple, because they don't do any kind of connecting that comes across to me. Yes, they're very young and need to mature, but I still see fans saying they do love each other, and that they're going to be married in the next book, and all sorts of things I don't understand.
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Eponine - Mar 6, 2007 6:09 pm (#1597 of 1858)
You know, these characters are essentially just words on a page. It doesn't matter if she was created to be his love interest. It's not detrimental to her or to him because they're plot points, both of them.
I like the two of them together, and I've been expecting them to be together since after GoF when I actually took the time to think about the shipping. I'm not all that fussed about whether we see them really connecting on a deep, emotional level in the books. Because if Jo says they understand each other, than I'm taking that at face value. If she says Ginny is his ideal girl, then that's good enough for me because she created the characters and she knows them better than I do. I didn't go into these books expecting a romance story, and I'm still not expecting an intimate look into Harry's romantic relationship in DH. It's just alien to the nature of the books to me.
I think a lot of people have read too much fanfiction which tends to really focus on the romance, and have built up too many expectations for how things could be. Sure, Jo could write many long conversations between Harry and Ginny about their hopes and dreams and what they want to get out of life (besides the whole defeating Voldemort thing) and their future together, but those kinds of conversations would just stick out at awkward angles in canon.
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Thom Matheson - Mar 6, 2007 6:33 pm (#1598 of 1858)
Eponine, I agree with you as well but would venture to go further. There is only one character that we get to know intimately, Harry Potter. As Eponine pointed out, shipping is a byproduct of the reader and their desires, and then how they go on to defend them. We have been told over and over that the books were not written with any serious love interests taking place. Just the surface stuff that would be associated with normal teenage growing up. The fact that they are all in a coeducational school away from home just brings it out a bit quicker.
Being hard on Ginny because of the way she is written is a compliment to Rowlings writting. She leaves a lot of her characters open to their own interpretations. I personally love the Lucius Malfoy character the way it is written. The same as I do Molly Weasley. Both are complex and both dearly defend their positions.
I see Ginny as a way for us to learn more about Harry, because, after all this series is about him. His "break up" at the end of HBP is another case of being noble to a degree, and I can see him thinking that. At the same time I see Ginny telling him to stuff it and Harry finally secumbing to her wishes, just as he did in OoP. Ginny for me is supporting Harry, because she chooses to. The same with Ron and Hermione.
Die, I also have daughters and a son, but I would not match them up with the Harry Potter series as a model for their future any more then you do. As I said in my opening, it is WE that take shipping far more seriously then needed. I love the thread here because of that, not in spite of it. Take heart, it is all in good fun. You have well documented how you feel about Molly and Ginny. All I can say is Good for you. You stand by your belief as a reader and as a person. I feel the same about that murdering Snape. Also well documented. We all must tip our caps to Rowling for making us feel the way we do. See you in line for the finale.
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 6, 2007 8:02 pm (#1599 of 1858)
It is because that so much is from Harry's point of view that this bothers me. If any relationship should have been shown, not told, it's this one. I think it's poor writing. Jo is good at many things, bless her, but romance is not apparently one of them.
You shouldn't have to read interviews to be able to see what's going on with characters in a story. That, if it's a really good story, should be in the text.
Strange how Snape and Ginny do the most polarizing, isn't it?
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Sunny Baudelaire - Mar 6, 2007 11:23 pm (#1600 of 1858)
We won't know whether or not Jo can write romance, until she writes an adult novel which includes a romantic subplot. Harry Potter is a children's book series and has as much 'romance' as it can without turning off the series' pre-teen fans.
One the the newest quotes on Quick Quotes Quill includes this comment from Jo: And in growing older Harry will encounter girls, a situation which will demand a delicate balancing act from Rowling. "Although a lot of readers may grow along with Harry, there could be others in the future, who at the age of nine or 10 read the entire series in 12 months.
I don't know how to post links, but here is the address: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Yes, as readers we know Harry the best. Then I would say we know Ron, Neville, Ginny and Hermione.
We know alot about Ginny that isn't just 'Harry centric'. We know she broke into the broom closet at the age of 6 because she wanted to learn how to play Quidditch, but her brothers wouldn't let her. We know she loves and missed her brothers when they went off to Hogwarts without her because we saw her cry and chase after the train.
She doesn't only defend Harry, we've seen her defend Neville. "You're not a nobody". She defended her mother and father by spraying Percy's glasses with mashed parsnips when he ripped their heart out at Christmas. We also saw her defending Hermione when Ron accused her of lying about having a date to the Yule Ball.
And of course she defends herself. From Zacharias Smith who was pestering her to relive the details of a night she and her friends could have been killed or implying she only got on the Quidditch team by knowing the captain.
We know she loves cats. We know she loves pets in general; she owns a Pigmy Puff and named Ron's Owl Pigwidgeon.
We know that she put her studies ahead of spending time with Harry. Harry and Ginny's time together was becoming increasingly restricted. Ginny's O.W.L.s were approaching and she was therefore forced to study for hours into the night.
That is just a sample of things we know about Ginny that aren't 'Harry centric'.
I have read every review of Half-Blood Prince that I could find (from professional book reviewers, not on-line fandom), and not one of them had a bad thing to say about Harry's girl friend or how his relationship with her was not written well. In fact, HBP was Jo's best reviewed book since Prisoner of Azkaban.
The only complaints about "Jo told us instead of showed us" have come from on-line fandom, and I can take a good guess why.
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Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 1601 to 1650)
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 7, 2007 7:13 am (#1601 of 1858)
It is because that so much is from Harry's point of view that this bothers me.-- Die Zimtzicke
Although me and Die are worlds apart on our opinions about Ginny-- I love, she hates-- I have to agree with this. As soon as Ginny became a big deal for Harry, what he thinks about her and knows about her tell us a good deal about Harry's growth as a character-- and since he is the hero of these books, that matters a great deal. I think someone on the Ginny thread called Ginny a solid second tier character, and I like that description. She is perfectly drawn and described for that role. Once she becomes Harry's One True and Only Love, what Harry knows about her and does with her becomes far more important, not because it tells us about Ginny but because it tells us about Harry. It wouldn't have taken up much space in the books to indicate that Harry knew the names of her friends, or knew her favorite class, or whatever. Would you want a boyfriend who lets you come sit with him and his friends, but never sits with you and yours? Doesn't know what you are studying or what you want to do after you graduate? Until we see Harry taking an interest in such things, it's hard to say what sort of depth there is to their relationship.
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Gatorgrad1991 - Mar 7, 2007 7:59 am (#1602 of 1858)
Sunny B: I have read every review of Half-Blood Prince that I could find (from professional book reviewers, not on-line fandom), and not one of them had a bad thing to say about Harry's girl friend or how his relationship with her was not written well.
Too right. Not too long ago on the Harry/Ginny thread at Fiction Alley Park someone posted a whole bunch of book review excepts, and not a one complained about how "out of nowhere", "rushed", "unrealistic", etc. the H/G relationship was in the book. Most seemed to agree that it was an entirely realistic and well-written "romance" taking into account the intended readership.
The only complaints about "Jo told us instead of showed us" have come from on-line fandom, and I can take a good guess why.
Sour grapes?
Seriously, I agree. The only complaints I've read about how the relationship was written have been in the on-line fandom, and from people that are apparently invested in another girl as Harry's love interest. That's not to say that there's a 100% correlation; maybe 85%?
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 7, 2007 8:09 am (#1603 of 1858)
Apparently, then, you didn't read my post above because I like Ginny and Harry and am complaining nonetheless. A book critic can be anyone. They don't have to be a "professional". If we had to be professional book critics to be allowed an opinion, then we may as well just shut down all forums right now, because really, what right do we have to post an opinion about anything?
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xray - Mar 7, 2007 11:52 am (#1604 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Ginny is apparently made for Harry, and from what I have been told, made to fit his life, but to me that makes her inherently subservient to him, despite Jo's comment about them being equals. - DZ
Die, reread the books and go on what you know, not what you're told. It's all there. Jo is the author of the books and if she says they're equals, they are. Period. We haven't seen it in the books yet but it'll be there. Keep your eyes peeled for the next (and final) book in the series, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows.
So she's been made perfect for him, but what does she get out of it? How does he fulfill her?
I think you have this wrong. Ginny and Harry are equals and they are "made for each other."
He doesn't confide in her.
We don't know this. I'd like to believe that he has confided in her many things. What did they talk about when we weren't looking? We need to use our imagination and read between the lines.
You don't believe they're equals despite what the author tells you. You feel annoyed because you hate Ginny but you love Harry (kind of like a mom ). You must understand and know that Ginny isn't finished; she's still a work in progress. We can expect great things from Ginny in DH; Jo said so. But if you refuse to believe the author then no amount of persuasion will rectify that.
Jo is good at many things, bless her, but romance is not apparently one of them.
Maybe if she actually wrote a romance novel you might feel differently.
You shouldn't have to read interviews to be able to see what's going on with characters in a story.
Heh. You don't need to. Let's see, there are what, 250 million Harry Potter readers? How many invest time and seek out the internet to satisfy their cravings for more? If we look at polls taken at various fansites, the most ever voting in a particular poll might have been around 150,000. Let's conservatively up that to say, 250,000 "internet fans of Harry Potter." That's 0.001 or 0.1% of all Harry Potter fans crave for more on the internet. Now how many of those "need" to use the internet to see what's going on in the books? By my count, only one.
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Steve Newton - Mar 7, 2007 11:57 am (#1605 of 1858)
Librarian
"He doesn't confide in her.
We don't know this. I'd like to believe that he has confided in her many things. What did they talk about when we weren't looking? We need to use our imagination and read between the lines."
I have to agree with Die on this. We know what the author has told us. If we haven't seen it we do not know it has happened and we should be careful saying that it does. There has to be some other evidence.
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Jadelollipop - Mar 7, 2007 1:43 pm (#1606 of 1858)
He did confide in Ginny (infamous Chocolate in the Library) when he told her that he wanted to talk to Sirius...He let his two best friends believe he had argued with Cho...
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Gatorgrad1991 - Mar 7, 2007 2:02 pm (#1607 of 1858)
Mrs B.:Apparently, then, you didn't read my post above because I like Ginny and Harry and am complaining nonetheless.
I read it after I had posted mine, and I'd say that puts you in the 15% that "complain" about H/G but weren't invested in another girl as the love interest.
All I'm saying is that from what I've seen the vast majority of regular, run-of-the-mill on-line fans that hated/loathed H/G were solidly invested in the idea of their preferred gal hooking up with the Hero, not that that is true of ALL those fans.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 7, 2007 2:51 pm (#1608 of 1858)
Let it snow!
Well, I have to agree with that 15/85% breakdown, Gatorgrad, unfortunately. Similarly, there were a very large number of fans who absolutely hated Ron and wished him an untimely death simply because they preferred Hermione with Harry.
Thankfully, I can say I'm solidly in that 15% with Mrs. Brisbee who is looking at this from a literary point of view. I honestly don't think Jo wrote Harry/Ginny well at all. I think Steve Newton phrased it quite well, "We know what the author has told us." I shouldn't have to go online to find out that Jo thinks Ginny is Harry's equal or that she's perfect for him, I should be able to pick that up purely from the text of the book, and if I don't then it wasn't well written. Jo didn't have to necessarily write them sharing their hopes and dreams with each other, as far as I'm concerned, but she should've wrote Ginny becoming of more importance to Harry as a lead up to a romance blossoming. Honestly, he doesn't really have any greater friendship with her prior to HBP than he does with anyone else who isn't Ron or Hermione, at least that's the way it is presented, and that's what really counts - the presentation. I should be able to pick up hints that she's becoming important to Harry as a friend (and I don't believe the train scenes in OP and HBP count; he simply needed a place to sit in OP and simply wanted to sit with someone he knew in HBP, it wasn't necessarily based on degree of friendship), prior to feeling jealous when she's hanging on someone else's arm. He confides that he needs to speak to Sirius to her, not because he's feeling closer to her as a friend but because she kept insisting and he simply needed to speak his wish aloud after a week of keeping it bottled up inside. I'm not saying I don't think they'll get along well together or that they're not ment for each other (because that is clearly what Jo intended), and I certainly felt better about the sudden romance the second time through the book, as I caught more subtle clues, but I just think Jo should've written it better.
xray --How does one write the buildup to a crush when you're inside his head all the time to begin with? It's tough because it never happens that way.--
I see you didn't read all of my last post. That's okay, it's your priority. I've seen such a "sudden" romance written quite well from inside someone's head and with a buildup. Harry didn't need to stick his elbow in the butter or go red in the face when she's around, there are other ways of showing a growing affection for someone (non-romantic) and then suddenly push it to romantic tension.
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xray - Mar 7, 2007 3:21 pm (#1609 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
I think it was there, just only too subtly done. I'm only just now noticing some of those. For instance:
Ron and Hermione exchanged another look. "I'm not sure, Harry. . . ."
"Yeah, I still don't reckon You-Know-Who would let Malfoy join. . . ."
Annoyed, but absolutely convinced he was right, Harry snatched up a pile of filthy Quidditch robes and left the room; Mrs. Weasley had been urging them for days not to leave their washing and packing until the last moment. On the landing he bumped into Ginny, who was returning to her room carrying a pile of freshly laundered clothes.
"I wouldn't go in the kitchen just now," she warned him. "There's a lot of Phlegm around."
"I'll be careful not to slip in it." Harry smiled. (HBP, p131)
Interesting here is how this scene has nothing to do with what's going on; it's just there. Ginny instantly changes Harry's mood from annoyed to happy.
"Fancy trying to find a compartment?"
"I can't, Harry, I said I'd meet Dean," said Ginny brightly. "See you later."
"Right," said Harry. He felt a strange twinge of annoyance as she walked away, her long red hair dancing behind her; he had become so used to her presence over the summer that he had almost forgotten that Ginny did not hang around with him, Ron, and Hermione while at school. Then he blinked and looked around: He was surrounded by mesmerized girls. (HBP, p136)
So here we have Harry watching Ginny walk away and suddenly realizes he's got all these girls mesmerized, looking at him... but he's watching Ginny.
They chose the one nearest a gold-colored cauldron that was emitting one of the most seductive scents Harry had ever inhaled: Somehow it reminded him simultaneously of treacle tart, the woody smell of a broomstick handle, and something flowery he thought he might have smelled at the Burrow. He found that he was breathing very slowly and deeply and that the potion's fumes seemed to be filling him up like drink. A great contentment stole over him; he grinned across at Ron, who grinned back lazily. (HBP, p183)
"Hang on," said a voice close by Harry's left ear and he caught a sudden waft of that flowery smell he had picked up in Slughorn's dungeon. He looked around and saw that Ginny had joined them. (HBP, p192)
Of course, we learn that the aroma is coming from Amortentia, the most powerful love potion in the world "and it's supposed to smell differently to each of according to what attracts us".
It's not nearly as sudden as some of you make it out to be, it's just subtle, very subtle... perhaps too subtle for those who prefer to be told everything directly.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 7, 2007 4:58 pm (#1610 of 1858)
Let it snow!
--It's not nearly as sudden as some of you make it out to be, it's just subtle, very subtle... perhaps too subtle for those who prefer to be told everything directly.--
Yes, it is all of a sudden. It's only in HBP, not anywhere else, I call a one-book-buildup "all of a sudden". There should have been more lead up before HBP (which I think is the point where those who think it's sudden and those who don't are misunderstanding each other). There are subtle clues in HBP, but they don't have much in the way pre-HBP precedence to build off of. See what I mean?
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xray - Mar 7, 2007 5:11 pm (#1611 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
So you're saying that a boy should have a growing attraction over the course of 5 years rather than one summer, and if it's not done that way then it's "sudden" ?
Harry has ALWAYS seen Ginny in a positive light but only until he spent some time with her over the summer, after she had matured a bit, did Harry start becoming attracted to her romantically.
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Sunny Baudelaire - Mar 7, 2007 5:22 pm (#1612 of 1858)
Well, if there were no hints prior to Half-Blood Prince, why did so many people accurately predict the H/G ship?
Prior to the publication of HBP, every poll I saw on "who will Harry kiss in HBP" had Ginny as the winner.
What else has the majority of fandom ever correctly guessed?
If you saw no evidence, well then O.K., but please acknowledge that some of us did see the evidence. The clues were there, not as obvious as the Ron/Hermione ones but there never the less.
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Puck - Mar 7, 2007 8:50 pm (#1613 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Harry had a crush on Cho for several books, thus he wasn't thinking much about Ginny. The fact that he would start to develop feelings for her after he was over Cho, and not realize himself how he was feeling about her until jealousy slapped him in the face seems right to me.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 7, 2007 11:08 pm (#1614 of 1858)
Let it snow!
--So you're saying that a boy should have a growing attraction over the course of 5 years rather than one summer, and if it's not done that way then it's "sudden" ? --
No, that wasn't what I said at all. I said "affection" not "attraction". It is their friendship that I don't feel was properly built, and, to me, it is suggested that it is from their friendship which their attraction grew. As to why so many people accurately predicted it, well because there's plenty of precedence in the genre. I predicted it also, but that still doesn't mean I think it was well written. We might as well admit that you won't change my mind and I won't change yours (that's usually the way most things go here on the forum anyway) so I'm perfectly willing to agree to disagree.
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frogface - Mar 8, 2007 3:02 am (#1615 of 1858)
Literally no one can agree on the subject, especially when Ginny comes up lol. Just check out the Ginny thread and you'll see what I mean. I agree with both of you in a way, I saw very very subtle clues in OotP in the way Ginny was being described from Harry's point of view, and their chocolate scene in the library. But I could have done with a few more hints.
I guess JKR decided Harry had too much on his mind in OotP to foreshadow his feelings for Ginny. For the first half of the book his thoughts are firmly on Cho, and then the end half is firmly concentrated on his feelings about Sirius and Dumbledore. At that point in his life, there just wasn't room for anyone else in his head. After all, he spent a good deal of OotP trying to push Voldy OUT of his head. No wonder Ginny couldn't get in! Poor guy.
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Gatorgrad1991 - Mar 8, 2007 6:38 am (#1616 of 1858)
Sunny B: Well, if there were no hints prior to Half-Blood Prince, why did so many people accurately predict the H/G ship?
Exactly. I think this continual debate about the H/G clues comes down to personal preference. I've read lots of comments on other fora from people who insist that certain textual clues "Don't count", and that is a question of preference.
frogface: I guess JKR decided Harry had too much on his mind in OotP to foreshadow his feelings for Ginny.
Not only was it about his crush on Cho in the beginning and his grief over Sirius/anger at Dumbledore in the end, but the fact that throughout OotP Harry is extremely self-absorbed, in a woe-is-me kind of way. If you look at it that way it makes the library scene between Harry and Ginny an even bigger example of their growing friendship, because Harry breaks out of his "whine" shell and genuinely talks to Ginny. He tells her something that he had kept from Ron and Hermione. That should be a pretty big clue.
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Luna Logic - Mar 8, 2007 7:21 am (#1617 of 1858)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Edited by Mar 8, 2007 6:23 am
Real good arguments about Harry state of mind all through OotP,Frogface and Gatorgrad. The loss of Sirius has been a shock and a blow, and the withdrawal of Dumbledore becomes a torment during the holidays and the school year.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 8, 2007 7:36 am (#1618 of 1858)
I thought OotP was a good start to Ginny/Harry, especially the scene in the library, but I have to agree with S.E. Jones: "It is their friendship that I don't feel was properly built, and, to me, it is suggested that it is from their friendship which their attraction grew."
It simply wasn't built upon in HBP. We don't see Ginny having a depth of friendship with Harry, like that Harry has with Hermione or Ron. We don't see him going to her with a problem and being comforted by her advice in HBP. Their interaction hasn't been shown to go beyond a certain level.
The question is, why? I've been thinking about what Die Zimtzicke said about Ginny being a prize, and I'm wondering if Harry sees her a bit that way. The way he felt about their relationship only being possible in a world without Voldemort suggests that might be true, no matter how honorable his intentions were when they broke up. You'll note that the problem here is with Harry, not with Rowling. At the same time she shows us Harry and Ginny's brief relationship and breakup, she also shows us two other love stories: Fleur and Bill, and Tonks and Lupin. The women in those relationships are willing to take their men knowing the trials and dangers. It should be noted too that Lupin tries to reject Tonks to "save" her.
I think Harry is still a bit self-adsorbed. He will mature-- this is after all his story. Hopefully signs of his maturity will include him realizing Ginny is his equal, and him giving equal weight to her feelings and interests.
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xray - Mar 8, 2007 11:49 am (#1619 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
S.E. Jones, I cannot agree to disagree with you until I understand what it is we're disagreeing about!
I still don't understand at all your point.
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xray - Mar 8, 2007 12:59 pm (#1620 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Actually I was in the middle of revising that last post when I got distracted and exceeded the time limit.
You said you lamented the lack of buildup, not in G->H but in H->G. I pointed out subtleties where Harry is realizing his attraction to Ginny but that's not enough because you only saw it in HBP, not in prior books.
I pointed out that usually it doesn't happen that way, that in most cases it's a stark realization on the part of the boy. You said Harry should have noticed Ginny in earlier books (maybe GoF?), that she was pretty, and when he found out she was dating Michael Corner it should have sparked some jealousy.
I do agree that it'd have been nice to see Harry realizing how pretty Ginny is in earlier books but wouldn't that have spilled the beans? It was very subtle, even in OotP we see it.
You wanted the relationship to be more obvious and less subtly shown, do I have this correct?
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 8, 2007 1:35 pm (#1621 of 1858)
Harry did not confide in Ginny in the chocolate scene. (I wish spoilers for the film were allowed here REALLY bad right now.) He told her he wanted to talk to Sirius, but not why, and more importantly he didn't tell her what was troubling him, although he easily could have in one or two sentences.
As for Ginny breaking into the broomshed, I don't buy it. Ginny may have told Hermione that, but as a mother of many, I don't see it being possible. Molly would keep track of the baby, especially her only girl, and with that many nosy, active, brothers around, in my opinion, someone would have noticed if she'd gone missing and gone flying. It makes no sense to me the way it was put. The twins just look like th type to spy, and if Molly couldn't keep an eye on the baby, I'd think she would tell one of the older kids to do it.
As for the Phlemg thing, it didn't make me see Ginny as more endearing just because it made Harry smile. Harry and Fleur parted on good terms after GoF with her acknowleding him as a champion and the savior of her sister. The fact that his apparent attraction for Ginny allows him to begin trashing Fleur, too, just to agree with Ginny, is sad to me.
It starts with that "scornful" comment from Ginny, "I suppose you like the way Plegm says "Arry, do you?" He doesn't even know what the situation really is in the house at that point, but he lets it stand.
I'm uncomfortable with the comments about sour grapes, and bitterness, and the supposed idea that nearly everyone saw the H/G coming. That's assuming a whole lot that can't be proven. There's just as many anti-H/G boards as pro-H/G, that I've seen.
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haymoni - Mar 8, 2007 1:59 pm (#1622 of 1858)
I don't think Harry liked the comments that Fleur made about the Burrow - he loves that place. He also knows that Fleur was pretty uppity until he saved her sister. Of course she loves him now, so she probably doesn't do anything to REALLY annoy Harry, but he can understand how Ginny & Molly can be offended.
If Harry had not smelled the Love Potion, he may not have made the Ginny connection, or at least it might have taken him a bit longer.
I think some boys just need to be hit on the head with a ton of bricks. If Ginny had not run to hug Harry, I don't think we would have seen anything happen between them at all. Harry would still be hung up on what Ron would think.
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TomProffitt - Mar 8, 2007 2:13 pm (#1623 of 1858)
Bullheaded empiricist
"If Ginny had not run to hug Harry, I don't think we would have seen anything happen between them at all. Harry would still be hung up on what Ron would think." --- haymoni
That's basically how I operated as a teen-age boy. The girls chased me until I caught them.
I think Harry and Ginny are showing a typical teen-age relationship which is very shallow on both of their parts in different places. I think it silly to expect to see Jo's long range plans for them completely revealed at the ages of fifteen and sixteen.
Frankly, I would be disappointed to see Ginny and Harry possess that perfect meant for each other relationship between equals at their current ages. To see that would be absurd.
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Sunny Baudelaire - Mar 8, 2007 11:12 pm (#1624 of 1858)
As far as Harry seeing Ginny as pretty earlier, Ginny always got positive physical descriptions from Harry.
Hermione's eyes were described as "brown", Luna's eyes were described as "protuberant" and "popping", and Ginny's were described as "bright brown". Who got the most positive description?
Hermione's hair is described as "bushy", Luna's hair is described as "straggly", and Ginny's is described as "vivid". Once again, who got the most positive description?
Die Z I'm uncomfortable with the comments about sour grapes, and bitterness, and the supposed idea that nearly everyone saw the H/G coming. That's assuming a whole lot that can't be proven. There's just as many anti-H/G boards as pro-H/G, that I've seen.
I think you are misstating what has been said. No one on this board ever declared that everyone saw Harry/Ginny coming. But I maintain that there were enough people who predicted it to make the claim "there was no evidence" not true.
Another point I made is that Half-Blood Prince was JKR's best reviewed book since Prisoner of Azkaban. That is a fact that can be proven. Read the reviews of Goblet of Fire, Order of the Phoenix, and Half-Blood Prince and see what I'm talking about.
And once again, not one professional book review I read, ever criticized Harry's girl friend or the way the relationship was written. Every time I see that aspect criticized, it is always someone involved in on-line fandom. And as far as that stands right now, that is a fact. If there are book reviews out there that do criticize Jo for that, then give me a link and I will come back to this thread and correct my statement and apologize.
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Wanda - Mar 9, 2007 2:49 am (#1625 of 1858)
Editor
So Die, you're basically calling Ginny a liar for telling Hermione she's been borrowing the boys' brooms (post #1621)? Why oh why oh why would she bother to lie to Hermione about something like this? There'd be absolutely no reason. Oh, and it also has absolutely nothing to do with 'shipping, so why say it here?
You really don't like this girl, huh? I just don't get why, though.
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Gatorgrad1991 - Mar 9, 2007 5:50 am (#1626 of 1858)
Die Z: Harry did not confide in Ginny in the chocolate scene. (I wish spoilers for the film were allowed here REALLY bad right now.) He told her he wanted to talk to Sirius, but not why, and more importantly he didn't tell her what was troubling him, although he easily could have in one or two sentences.
I know this is going to sound nasty and snarky, but I want to make sure I'm understanding your point here. What I'm getting is that you think because Harry didn't confide in Ginny as much as you, apparently, thought he should have that means he didn't confide in her at all? Is that about the gist of it? I have to wonder what you really expect out of these books at time. I really do.
The reality of that scene, taken in it's full context, makes it more than abundant clear that Harry confided in, or if you prefer shared a confidence with, Ginny. He told her something that he hadn't told anyone, not even his best friends Ron and Hermione - that he wanted to talk to Sirius. Why should it matter that he didn't tell her why he was upset or why he felt this seemingly urgent need to talk to his godfather. He told her something that he hadn't told ANYone else. Where I come from that rates as confiding.
I'm uncomfortable with the comments about sour grapes, and bitterness, and the supposed idea that nearly everyone saw the H/G coming. Did anyone say that "nearly everyone saw H/G coming"?. No. What was said was that enough people saw it coming, and correctly predicted it, to render the almost constant complaints of out-of-nowhere, no development, yada yada yada completely and utterly obsolete. And when those complaints come continuously from people that clearly hate the character of Ginny, or are just as clearly invested in another Harry pairing, then yeah. It does reek of sour grapes, especially since the complaining and griping has been going on for almost two years. If there wasn't an element of bitterness wouldn't the whole kerfluffle have died down by now?
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haymoni - Mar 9, 2007 7:00 am (#1627 of 1858)
Guys - give it up!
Die isn't going to start liking Ginny, just like she isn't going to start liking Molly.
It would have been much funner if Harry had fallen for Luna, but these books aren't romantic comedies.
We are just going to have to take Jo at her word and her written word and respect one another's opinions.
I just don't know how much further we can take these conversations without getting a thumping from the Moderators.
Now how about that wacky Filch & Madam Pince????
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Thom Matheson - Mar 9, 2007 7:29 am (#1628 of 1858)
I have been staring at this screen for a bit and posting a response, but no, other then to say Die, I applaud you for sticking to your guns in the face of it all. That said let us lighten up.
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Wanda - Mar 9, 2007 7:52 am (#1629 of 1858)
Editor
She doesn't like Molly?! Wow.
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haymoni - Mar 9, 2007 7:54 am (#1630 of 1858)
Cut it out!!!!!
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Thom Matheson - Mar 9, 2007 7:56 am (#1631 of 1858)
Wanda, stop it!!! Please read the rule here.
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Wanda - Mar 9, 2007 8:20 am (#1632 of 1858)
Editor
Oh... I'm sorry, but I was just surprised. I wasn't trying to inflame things, I just haven't had a chance to read every post on the Forum yet. Things come as a shock sometimes.
Look I don't mean to grumble, but I don't see that this is fair. People have been debating Harry/Ginny for months. I'm new here, so why shouldn't I join in?
Anyway... back to 'shipping...
I can't wait to see Ron and Hermione properly get together and have a good old snog. I feel that their relationship is still quite stilted, so I'd really like it if they dropped their barriers a bit more in DH.
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haymoni - Mar 9, 2007 8:24 am (#1633 of 1858)
Yes - comforting her while she was crying on her shoulder - not exactly fulfilling.
I'd like to see Harry walk in on them at the Burrow.
It would be really funny if Ron made the same noise coming up for air that he did with Lavender.
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Thom Matheson - Mar 9, 2007 8:30 am (#1634 of 1858)
Everyone's opinion is welcome here. Debating an issue is encouraged as well as constructive. Your's included. Just don't make it personal. If you read "Forum Guidelines at the top of the opening page, this will all make sense.
I look forward to seeing your thoughts throughout in the future.
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Puck - Mar 9, 2007 11:19 am (#1635 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I thought it took class for Harry not to reveal to any friends what he saw in the pensieve. It was not his memory to tell, and he never should have seen it.
Harry and Ginny spent the summer hanging out, laughing, basically having a good time. That's what their friendship was based on. As Tom point out, they are teenagers. By the end of the summer Harry already had new feelings for Ginny, it just took a brick for him to realize this.
Why not confide more in Ginny? Because he's Dumbuledore's man through and through, and DD said to only tell Ron and Hermione. Back in high school, my friends knew more about me than any boyfriends.
Oh, and he didn't brush her off when she asked about the book. He "gently" explained that it was just some hints written in the margins. I'm guessing she must have found out more detail about the book, as she told Hermione off when she harped on him about using it. Ginny seemed to know understand what Harry and Hermione were talking about in that scene.
I've seen plenty of cases where one person has feeling, and the other just feels friendship. Then one day, the second person wakes up and thinks "Wow! WHy didn't I see that before!" It's that sudden. (Just ask my brother and his wife. ) Seems perfectly normal to me.
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Fishcakes - Mar 9, 2007 1:29 pm (#1636 of 1858)
Harry did not confide in Ginny in the chocolate scene. [snip] He told her he wanted to talk to Sirius, but not why, and more importantly he didn't tell her what was troubling him, although he easily could have in one or two sentences.
Die, while I am sure I will not convince you to read this scene the way I do, maybe I/we can get you to at least understand why we see it a certain way.
I do believe that Harry confided in Ginny, I believe this because he told her something he was not willing to tell any one else. The memory is something that is between him, Sirius and Remus (and his father if he was still around.) His desire was to talk to them to find out exactly what happened. Ginny was not there when the incident happened, she wasn't even born. Also, that memory was obtained by dishonest means, and it would be fairly low of Harry to tell others of it. Yet, even though he lets Ron and Hermione, his usual confidants, carry on blissfully ignorant of even the smallest tidbit of what's actually bothering him, he does tell Ginny.
Harry was feeling very isolated in OotP, even from Ron and Hermione. That he told Ginny his desire during this time is very significant. It shows a growing friendship and growing trust. Of all the H/G moments, this is actually my favourite, not because it shows that they are so much in love (it doesn't), but because it shows that they communicate well, that Ginny can bring Harry out of his funk by being understanding and compassionate and that he trusts her when he trusts so few.
Also, I think Ginny told Harry something he will need to hold on to in DH -
'Anything is possible, if you've got enough nerve'
As for Ginny breaking into the broomshed, I don't buy it. Ginny may have told Hermione that, but as a mother of many, I don't see it being possible. Molly would keep track of the baby, especially her only girl, and with that many nosy, active, brothers around, in my opinion, someone would have noticed if she'd gone missing and gone flying. It makes no sense to me the way it was put. The twins just look like th type to spy, and if Molly couldn't keep an eye on the baby, I'd think she would tell one of the older kids to do it.
If you want, take this to the Ginny thread, I'm not sure this is the appropriate place to discuss this as it doesn't really relate to shipping.
As for the Phlemg thing, it didn't make me see Ginny as more endearing just because it made Harry smile. Harry and Fleur parted on good terms after GoF with her acknowleding him as a champion and the savior of her sister. The fact that his apparent attraction for Ginny allows him to begin trashing Fleur, too, just to agree with Ginny, is sad to me.
It starts with that "scornful" comment from Ginny, "I suppose you like the way Plegm says "Arry, do you?" He doesn't even know what the situation really is in the house at that point, but he lets it stand.
As much as I love Fleur, she comes across as a real pain in the proverbial to play host to, add to that that she treats Ginny like a child (any mother of teenagers will know that this is practically the number one cardinal sin when you are a teenager!!) So rather than lashing out at Fleur she pokes fun at her behind her back, much like when you get fed up of shipping debates and go and have a rant in a safe place. While I don't think name calling is very mature, I think it is more mature than being mean to Fleur to her face. Harry and Ginny have a very similar sense of humour, they have been sharing glances, giggles and jokes since PoA (possibly CoS, I can't remember what happens on the train home), often at other peoples expense. Harry is not so blind that he doesn't realise that Fleur is difficult, and takes time to get used to, no matter on what good terms they parted.
I'm uncomfortable with the comments about sour grapes, and bitterness, and the supposed idea that nearly everyone saw the H/G coming. That's assuming a whole lot that can't be proven. There's just as many anti-H/G boards as pro-H/G, that I've seen.
I don't think any one has claimed that everyone saw H/G coming. I didn't even think about it until OotP, and strangely enough it was the comment by Hermione about missing each other while her lips twitched that made me think of the possibility. That bit seemed to stand out almost, the comment made sense in the situation and yet didn't (I can't explain!) It was only after this, and after a re-read, that I started to notice all the little subtle clues I had missed before. In my defence, I read all of the first four books in quick succession and then OotP was released a week or two later. I wasn't involved in fandom and shipping had never occurred to me beyond thinking H/Hr was going to happen after watching the first two films (on the basic assumption of Hero gets main girl) that was rectified, after reading the books, to R/Hr. Even that was very much in the background.
Even though I saw H/G and have argued for it pre HBP I never really became a shipper until post HBP. I really do feel that for many H/G was meant to be picked up on a re-read. When you sit there and notice all the small scenes that slipped by the first time because they didn't seem relevant. For this to work, you have to keep your mind open. If you go in absolutely hating it, it is unlikely that you will suddenly fall in love with it. You just find ways to dismiss or change the meaning of scenes. It is hard not to do this when you already have preferences for something else (been there, done that), but it's not impossible, which is part of the reason that things sometimes come across as sour grapes. (You being a general you)
Also, when scenes that obviously have an entirely different meaning in the book are completely twisted around to mean something completely different, than this also comes across as sour grapes. Rather than just saying 'ok, so Harry and Ginny obviously enjoy each other's company, even if I don't like the ship' people come up with weak theories to try and explain it away, and try to pass them off as canon rather than fanon. Or they rant and rage at the author. These sorts of things come off as sour grapes, it is not so much the disliking, every body has their likes and dislikes, but the level of dislike and how it is expressed and dealt with, I think.
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xray - Mar 9, 2007 4:16 pm (#1637 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Just two quick comments to Die Zimtzicke. (Others have done such a brilliant job replying to the rest.)
Harry did not confide in Ginny in the chocolate scene. - DZ
If that's what you want to believe there's nothing wrong with it. I, and many others, interpret it differently, and IMO it's how Rowling intended it to be interpreted. She's so deliciously subtle.
As for Ginny breaking into the broomshed, I don't buy it.
Oooh, you could be on to something here! If Ginny didn't break into the broomshed like you think, then that means she must have learned to fly almost instantly like Harry did! OOOOh! After all, they are equals. Thanks for the idea, Die!
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TheSaint - Mar 9, 2007 4:26 pm (#1638 of 1858)
opens umbrella to shield from sarcasm dripping from above*
I, for one, find shipping the least interesting aspect of the series, but this thread the most entertaining. Same argument for two years...LOL
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S.E. Jones - Mar 9, 2007 7:25 pm (#1639 of 1858)
Let it snow!
Gatorgrad --What was said was that enough people saw it coming, and correctly predicted it, to render the almost constant complaints of out-of-nowhere, no development, yada yada yada completely and utterly obsolete. And when those complaints come continuously from people that clearly hate the character of Ginny, or are just as clearly invested in another Harry pairing, then yeah. It does reek of sour grapes...--
And what about those who, like myself, correctly predicted it, love Ginny's character, don't want to see Harry with anyone else, and still don't like how it was written? I said I would "agree to disagree" and stop my half of the debate, and I'm sticking to that (sorry, xray), but I'm only bringing this up to make a point. Everyone has a right to their opinion, as long as that opinion is stated in a mature and civil manner. If you disagree with someone's opinion, fine, but don't bring "sour grapes" into, from either side, or you will be kipendoed. No members' post is "obsolete" or "invalid" just because you disagree. If you don't want to argue the same point over and over, then don't. That's why we have the mantra "agree to disagree".
Perhaps the same argument has been going on for two years, but do you realize how long the "H/Hr"-"R/Hr" argument went on for? And for those who were convinced it would be H/Hr, every passage in the book supported their view, and for those who were convinced it would be R/Hr, every passage in the book supported their view. Everyone has a right to their own interpretation of what they read. For some of us, this is an old argument, but for others among us it is new, so don't hold it against someone if they want to join in. If it's old for you, bring up a different topic to discuss. Threads are capable of obliging two discussions at once.
And now, I will step down from my host's soapbox....
xray --S.E. Jones, I cannot agree to disagree with you until I understand what it is we're disagreeing about!... You wanted the relationship to be more obvious and less subtly shown, do I have this correct?--
I'm afraid you still don't have it correct, xray. I've made my points, all the ones I'm going to make; I guess you're just going to have to re-read my posts, in full, and contemplate them a bit. I'm sorry you feel that way about letting the discussion go.....
Wanda --I can't wait to see Ron and Hermione properly get together and have a good old snog. I feel that their relationship is still quite stilted, so I'd really like it if they dropped their barriers a bit more in DH.--
What do you think will happen at the wedding? It will be another chance for them to see each other in their formal clothes (Ron finally has a formal robe that doesn't look like it belong's in a Meatloaf video) and weddings can be romantic settings for the guests (think about it, you see everyone in their best clothes, you see these two people making this loving commitment, there's dancing, etc.)....
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Puck - Mar 9, 2007 7:33 pm (#1640 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Did Jo ever confirm the Filch?Pince thing, or is the fact that they are standing together at the end of HBP another subtle take-it-as-you-wish moment?
Fishcakes, where is that scene in OotP when Hermione's lips twitch when she comments about people missing each other?
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Sunny Baudelaire - Mar 9, 2007 9:51 pm (#1641 of 1858)
Puck, I'm not Fishcakes, but I can answer the question.
It's during the "Lucky You" scene when Ron, Hermione & Ginny confront Harry after he learns he was possessed.
"It's you lot that won't look at me!" said Harry angrily.
"Maybe you're taking it in turns to look and keep missing each other," suggested Hermione, the corners of her mouth twitching.
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Fishcakes - Mar 10, 2007 3:43 am (#1642 of 1858)
That's the one Sunny Baudelaire, I'll just expand it a little.
She sat down next to Ginny, and the two girls and Ron all looked up at Harry.
“How’re you feeling?” asked Hermione.
“Fine,” said Harry stiffly.
“Oh, don’t lie, Harry,” she said impatiently. “Ron and Ginny say you’ve been hiding from everyone since you got back from St. Mungo’s.”
“They do, do they?” said Harry, glaring at Ron and Ginny. Ron looked down at his feet but Ginny seemed quite unabashed.
“Well, you have!” she said. “And you won’t look at any of us!”
“It’s you lot who won’t look at me!” said Harry angrily.
“Maybe you’re taking it in turns to look, and keep missing each other,” suggested Hermione, the corners of her mouth twitching.
“Very funny,” snapped Harry, turning away.
I'm not claiming it was a valid tip off, but it may have just made little pieces of H/G that I had picked up without realising fall in place together. I think it was more the twitching than the comment itself, it almost seemed un-hermioneish in this situation!
Ginny having a crush, then seemingly moving on with her life. Harry is then hit over the head when Ginny totally puts him in his place in the whole lucky you scene. (With out the lucky you scene, I don't think Harry would have confided in Ginny in the library later on.) It seemed only a matter of time before Harry developed feelings for Ginny, and then he would be the one crushing while she dated others. Classic romantic irony!
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xray - Mar 10, 2007 9:13 am (#1643 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Hermione is such a Harry/Ginny shipper!
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Puck - Mar 10, 2007 9:57 am (#1644 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Hermione is a romantic. She's great at helping others with their relationships, just can't seem to sort out her own.
I was thinking, she told Ginny to move on and date other boys, and Harry may notice her in time. Do you think that's what she was doing with Viktor? Moving on to someone else to get Ron to take notice? Ginny met Micheal Corner at the Yule ball, so the timing seems about right...
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Sunny Baudelaire - Mar 10, 2007 11:38 am (#1645 of 1858)
In one of JKR's diary entries she mentions how she stopped by Leavesden studios and chatted with all the young actors/actresses. She mentioned that she and Emma talked about Hermione's love life. What I wouldn't have given to have been a fly on the wall during that converstation!
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Fishcakes - Mar 10, 2007 12:56 pm (#1646 of 1858)
I was thinking, she told Ginny to move on and date other boys, and Harry may notice her in time. Do you think that's what she was doing with Viktor? Moving on to someone else to get Ron to take notice? Ginny met Micheal Corner at the Yule ball, so the timing seems about right...
I don't think it was to get Ron to notice (that's what McClaggen was for I think it was more of a case of not wanting to wait.
Ginny was different in that she wasn't herself around Harry, so Hermione advised her to move on in the hopes that she would then be better able to act like herself. Dating other people was just part of that, not to get Harry to notice, Ginny being herself would hopefully do that. Ginny may have found someone else she liked instead, but Dean and Michael weren't what she was looking for.
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Hoot Owl - Mar 10, 2007 2:29 pm (#1647 of 1858)
Teacher
Wasn't Hermione's advice that if Ginny ' acted more like herself' then Harry might take notice? I think Hermione told her that way back in POA when she and Ginny shared a room at the Leaky Cauldron. She probably saw that Ginny acted differently when Harry was not around.
The " get on with your life " advice may have been when Neville ask her {both of them) to the Yule Ball. It does seem like the right timing. Maybe Ginny started to say no then Hermione pulled her aside, told her Harry was going to ask Cho not her and she should get on with her life and not wait until Harry noticed.
Hermione had already accepted Viktor's invitation by then. I do think Hermione expected Ron to be more impressed by her going to the ball with his idol. She seemed surprised by the intensity of his jealousy. You would think she would have known that he would react that way.
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Puck - Mar 10, 2007 2:41 pm (#1648 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Poor Ginny must have been so devastated when Ron suggested Harry take Ginny, and she had already said yes to Neville. Then again, watching him watch Cho and Cedric all night wouldn't have been a picnic either.
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xray - Mar 10, 2007 4:11 pm (#1649 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Great point, Puck! Here I was merely lamenting Ginny's loss at an opportunity to go with Harry to the ball when I hadn't even considered why she shouldn't. Jo's so sneaky and clever sometimes, it's scary.
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Puck - Mar 10, 2007 5:23 pm (#1650 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Exactly. The twins were merely annoyed with Ron and Harry, and were happy to go dance with other boys. Ginny would have been devastated. (Plus afraid to speak -or trip, or step on his toes, etc...)
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
It is because that so much is from Harry's point of view that this bothers me.-- Die Zimtzicke
Although me and Die are worlds apart on our opinions about Ginny-- I love, she hates-- I have to agree with this. As soon as Ginny became a big deal for Harry, what he thinks about her and knows about her tell us a good deal about Harry's growth as a character-- and since he is the hero of these books, that matters a great deal. I think someone on the Ginny thread called Ginny a solid second tier character, and I like that description. She is perfectly drawn and described for that role. Once she becomes Harry's One True and Only Love, what Harry knows about her and does with her becomes far more important, not because it tells us about Ginny but because it tells us about Harry. It wouldn't have taken up much space in the books to indicate that Harry knew the names of her friends, or knew her favorite class, or whatever. Would you want a boyfriend who lets you come sit with him and his friends, but never sits with you and yours? Doesn't know what you are studying or what you want to do after you graduate? Until we see Harry taking an interest in such things, it's hard to say what sort of depth there is to their relationship.
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Gatorgrad1991 - Mar 7, 2007 7:59 am (#1602 of 1858)
Sunny B: I have read every review of Half-Blood Prince that I could find (from professional book reviewers, not on-line fandom), and not one of them had a bad thing to say about Harry's girl friend or how his relationship with her was not written well.
Too right. Not too long ago on the Harry/Ginny thread at Fiction Alley Park someone posted a whole bunch of book review excepts, and not a one complained about how "out of nowhere", "rushed", "unrealistic", etc. the H/G relationship was in the book. Most seemed to agree that it was an entirely realistic and well-written "romance" taking into account the intended readership.
The only complaints about "Jo told us instead of showed us" have come from on-line fandom, and I can take a good guess why.
Sour grapes?
Seriously, I agree. The only complaints I've read about how the relationship was written have been in the on-line fandom, and from people that are apparently invested in another girl as Harry's love interest. That's not to say that there's a 100% correlation; maybe 85%?
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 7, 2007 8:09 am (#1603 of 1858)
Apparently, then, you didn't read my post above because I like Ginny and Harry and am complaining nonetheless. A book critic can be anyone. They don't have to be a "professional". If we had to be professional book critics to be allowed an opinion, then we may as well just shut down all forums right now, because really, what right do we have to post an opinion about anything?
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xray - Mar 7, 2007 11:52 am (#1604 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Ginny is apparently made for Harry, and from what I have been told, made to fit his life, but to me that makes her inherently subservient to him, despite Jo's comment about them being equals. - DZ
Die, reread the books and go on what you know, not what you're told. It's all there. Jo is the author of the books and if she says they're equals, they are. Period. We haven't seen it in the books yet but it'll be there. Keep your eyes peeled for the next (and final) book in the series, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows.
So she's been made perfect for him, but what does she get out of it? How does he fulfill her?
I think you have this wrong. Ginny and Harry are equals and they are "made for each other."
He doesn't confide in her.
We don't know this. I'd like to believe that he has confided in her many things. What did they talk about when we weren't looking? We need to use our imagination and read between the lines.
You don't believe they're equals despite what the author tells you. You feel annoyed because you hate Ginny but you love Harry (kind of like a mom ). You must understand and know that Ginny isn't finished; she's still a work in progress. We can expect great things from Ginny in DH; Jo said so. But if you refuse to believe the author then no amount of persuasion will rectify that.
Jo is good at many things, bless her, but romance is not apparently one of them.
Maybe if she actually wrote a romance novel you might feel differently.
You shouldn't have to read interviews to be able to see what's going on with characters in a story.
Heh. You don't need to. Let's see, there are what, 250 million Harry Potter readers? How many invest time and seek out the internet to satisfy their cravings for more? If we look at polls taken at various fansites, the most ever voting in a particular poll might have been around 150,000. Let's conservatively up that to say, 250,000 "internet fans of Harry Potter." That's 0.001 or 0.1% of all Harry Potter fans crave for more on the internet. Now how many of those "need" to use the internet to see what's going on in the books? By my count, only one.
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Steve Newton - Mar 7, 2007 11:57 am (#1605 of 1858)
Librarian
"He doesn't confide in her.
We don't know this. I'd like to believe that he has confided in her many things. What did they talk about when we weren't looking? We need to use our imagination and read between the lines."
I have to agree with Die on this. We know what the author has told us. If we haven't seen it we do not know it has happened and we should be careful saying that it does. There has to be some other evidence.
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Jadelollipop - Mar 7, 2007 1:43 pm (#1606 of 1858)
He did confide in Ginny (infamous Chocolate in the Library) when he told her that he wanted to talk to Sirius...He let his two best friends believe he had argued with Cho...
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Gatorgrad1991 - Mar 7, 2007 2:02 pm (#1607 of 1858)
Mrs B.:Apparently, then, you didn't read my post above because I like Ginny and Harry and am complaining nonetheless.
I read it after I had posted mine, and I'd say that puts you in the 15% that "complain" about H/G but weren't invested in another girl as the love interest.
All I'm saying is that from what I've seen the vast majority of regular, run-of-the-mill on-line fans that hated/loathed H/G were solidly invested in the idea of their preferred gal hooking up with the Hero, not that that is true of ALL those fans.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 7, 2007 2:51 pm (#1608 of 1858)
Let it snow!
Well, I have to agree with that 15/85% breakdown, Gatorgrad, unfortunately. Similarly, there were a very large number of fans who absolutely hated Ron and wished him an untimely death simply because they preferred Hermione with Harry.
Thankfully, I can say I'm solidly in that 15% with Mrs. Brisbee who is looking at this from a literary point of view. I honestly don't think Jo wrote Harry/Ginny well at all. I think Steve Newton phrased it quite well, "We know what the author has told us." I shouldn't have to go online to find out that Jo thinks Ginny is Harry's equal or that she's perfect for him, I should be able to pick that up purely from the text of the book, and if I don't then it wasn't well written. Jo didn't have to necessarily write them sharing their hopes and dreams with each other, as far as I'm concerned, but she should've wrote Ginny becoming of more importance to Harry as a lead up to a romance blossoming. Honestly, he doesn't really have any greater friendship with her prior to HBP than he does with anyone else who isn't Ron or Hermione, at least that's the way it is presented, and that's what really counts - the presentation. I should be able to pick up hints that she's becoming important to Harry as a friend (and I don't believe the train scenes in OP and HBP count; he simply needed a place to sit in OP and simply wanted to sit with someone he knew in HBP, it wasn't necessarily based on degree of friendship), prior to feeling jealous when she's hanging on someone else's arm. He confides that he needs to speak to Sirius to her, not because he's feeling closer to her as a friend but because she kept insisting and he simply needed to speak his wish aloud after a week of keeping it bottled up inside. I'm not saying I don't think they'll get along well together or that they're not ment for each other (because that is clearly what Jo intended), and I certainly felt better about the sudden romance the second time through the book, as I caught more subtle clues, but I just think Jo should've written it better.
xray --How does one write the buildup to a crush when you're inside his head all the time to begin with? It's tough because it never happens that way.--
I see you didn't read all of my last post. That's okay, it's your priority. I've seen such a "sudden" romance written quite well from inside someone's head and with a buildup. Harry didn't need to stick his elbow in the butter or go red in the face when she's around, there are other ways of showing a growing affection for someone (non-romantic) and then suddenly push it to romantic tension.
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xray - Mar 7, 2007 3:21 pm (#1609 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
I think it was there, just only too subtly done. I'm only just now noticing some of those. For instance:
Ron and Hermione exchanged another look. "I'm not sure, Harry. . . ."
"Yeah, I still don't reckon You-Know-Who would let Malfoy join. . . ."
Annoyed, but absolutely convinced he was right, Harry snatched up a pile of filthy Quidditch robes and left the room; Mrs. Weasley had been urging them for days not to leave their washing and packing until the last moment. On the landing he bumped into Ginny, who was returning to her room carrying a pile of freshly laundered clothes.
"I wouldn't go in the kitchen just now," she warned him. "There's a lot of Phlegm around."
"I'll be careful not to slip in it." Harry smiled. (HBP, p131)
Interesting here is how this scene has nothing to do with what's going on; it's just there. Ginny instantly changes Harry's mood from annoyed to happy.
"Fancy trying to find a compartment?"
"I can't, Harry, I said I'd meet Dean," said Ginny brightly. "See you later."
"Right," said Harry. He felt a strange twinge of annoyance as she walked away, her long red hair dancing behind her; he had become so used to her presence over the summer that he had almost forgotten that Ginny did not hang around with him, Ron, and Hermione while at school. Then he blinked and looked around: He was surrounded by mesmerized girls. (HBP, p136)
So here we have Harry watching Ginny walk away and suddenly realizes he's got all these girls mesmerized, looking at him... but he's watching Ginny.
They chose the one nearest a gold-colored cauldron that was emitting one of the most seductive scents Harry had ever inhaled: Somehow it reminded him simultaneously of treacle tart, the woody smell of a broomstick handle, and something flowery he thought he might have smelled at the Burrow. He found that he was breathing very slowly and deeply and that the potion's fumes seemed to be filling him up like drink. A great contentment stole over him; he grinned across at Ron, who grinned back lazily. (HBP, p183)
"Hang on," said a voice close by Harry's left ear and he caught a sudden waft of that flowery smell he had picked up in Slughorn's dungeon. He looked around and saw that Ginny had joined them. (HBP, p192)
Of course, we learn that the aroma is coming from Amortentia, the most powerful love potion in the world "and it's supposed to smell differently to each of according to what attracts us".
It's not nearly as sudden as some of you make it out to be, it's just subtle, very subtle... perhaps too subtle for those who prefer to be told everything directly.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 7, 2007 4:58 pm (#1610 of 1858)
Let it snow!
--It's not nearly as sudden as some of you make it out to be, it's just subtle, very subtle... perhaps too subtle for those who prefer to be told everything directly.--
Yes, it is all of a sudden. It's only in HBP, not anywhere else, I call a one-book-buildup "all of a sudden". There should have been more lead up before HBP (which I think is the point where those who think it's sudden and those who don't are misunderstanding each other). There are subtle clues in HBP, but they don't have much in the way pre-HBP precedence to build off of. See what I mean?
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xray - Mar 7, 2007 5:11 pm (#1611 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
So you're saying that a boy should have a growing attraction over the course of 5 years rather than one summer, and if it's not done that way then it's "sudden" ?
Harry has ALWAYS seen Ginny in a positive light but only until he spent some time with her over the summer, after she had matured a bit, did Harry start becoming attracted to her romantically.
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Sunny Baudelaire - Mar 7, 2007 5:22 pm (#1612 of 1858)
Well, if there were no hints prior to Half-Blood Prince, why did so many people accurately predict the H/G ship?
Prior to the publication of HBP, every poll I saw on "who will Harry kiss in HBP" had Ginny as the winner.
What else has the majority of fandom ever correctly guessed?
If you saw no evidence, well then O.K., but please acknowledge that some of us did see the evidence. The clues were there, not as obvious as the Ron/Hermione ones but there never the less.
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Puck - Mar 7, 2007 8:50 pm (#1613 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Harry had a crush on Cho for several books, thus he wasn't thinking much about Ginny. The fact that he would start to develop feelings for her after he was over Cho, and not realize himself how he was feeling about her until jealousy slapped him in the face seems right to me.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 7, 2007 11:08 pm (#1614 of 1858)
Let it snow!
--So you're saying that a boy should have a growing attraction over the course of 5 years rather than one summer, and if it's not done that way then it's "sudden" ? --
No, that wasn't what I said at all. I said "affection" not "attraction". It is their friendship that I don't feel was properly built, and, to me, it is suggested that it is from their friendship which their attraction grew. As to why so many people accurately predicted it, well because there's plenty of precedence in the genre. I predicted it also, but that still doesn't mean I think it was well written. We might as well admit that you won't change my mind and I won't change yours (that's usually the way most things go here on the forum anyway) so I'm perfectly willing to agree to disagree.
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frogface - Mar 8, 2007 3:02 am (#1615 of 1858)
Literally no one can agree on the subject, especially when Ginny comes up lol. Just check out the Ginny thread and you'll see what I mean. I agree with both of you in a way, I saw very very subtle clues in OotP in the way Ginny was being described from Harry's point of view, and their chocolate scene in the library. But I could have done with a few more hints.
I guess JKR decided Harry had too much on his mind in OotP to foreshadow his feelings for Ginny. For the first half of the book his thoughts are firmly on Cho, and then the end half is firmly concentrated on his feelings about Sirius and Dumbledore. At that point in his life, there just wasn't room for anyone else in his head. After all, he spent a good deal of OotP trying to push Voldy OUT of his head. No wonder Ginny couldn't get in! Poor guy.
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Gatorgrad1991 - Mar 8, 2007 6:38 am (#1616 of 1858)
Sunny B: Well, if there were no hints prior to Half-Blood Prince, why did so many people accurately predict the H/G ship?
Exactly. I think this continual debate about the H/G clues comes down to personal preference. I've read lots of comments on other fora from people who insist that certain textual clues "Don't count", and that is a question of preference.
frogface: I guess JKR decided Harry had too much on his mind in OotP to foreshadow his feelings for Ginny.
Not only was it about his crush on Cho in the beginning and his grief over Sirius/anger at Dumbledore in the end, but the fact that throughout OotP Harry is extremely self-absorbed, in a woe-is-me kind of way. If you look at it that way it makes the library scene between Harry and Ginny an even bigger example of their growing friendship, because Harry breaks out of his "whine" shell and genuinely talks to Ginny. He tells her something that he had kept from Ron and Hermione. That should be a pretty big clue.
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Luna Logic - Mar 8, 2007 7:21 am (#1617 of 1858)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Edited by Mar 8, 2007 6:23 am
Real good arguments about Harry state of mind all through OotP,Frogface and Gatorgrad. The loss of Sirius has been a shock and a blow, and the withdrawal of Dumbledore becomes a torment during the holidays and the school year.
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Mrs Brisbee - Mar 8, 2007 7:36 am (#1618 of 1858)
I thought OotP was a good start to Ginny/Harry, especially the scene in the library, but I have to agree with S.E. Jones: "It is their friendship that I don't feel was properly built, and, to me, it is suggested that it is from their friendship which their attraction grew."
It simply wasn't built upon in HBP. We don't see Ginny having a depth of friendship with Harry, like that Harry has with Hermione or Ron. We don't see him going to her with a problem and being comforted by her advice in HBP. Their interaction hasn't been shown to go beyond a certain level.
The question is, why? I've been thinking about what Die Zimtzicke said about Ginny being a prize, and I'm wondering if Harry sees her a bit that way. The way he felt about their relationship only being possible in a world without Voldemort suggests that might be true, no matter how honorable his intentions were when they broke up. You'll note that the problem here is with Harry, not with Rowling. At the same time she shows us Harry and Ginny's brief relationship and breakup, she also shows us two other love stories: Fleur and Bill, and Tonks and Lupin. The women in those relationships are willing to take their men knowing the trials and dangers. It should be noted too that Lupin tries to reject Tonks to "save" her.
I think Harry is still a bit self-adsorbed. He will mature-- this is after all his story. Hopefully signs of his maturity will include him realizing Ginny is his equal, and him giving equal weight to her feelings and interests.
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xray - Mar 8, 2007 11:49 am (#1619 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
S.E. Jones, I cannot agree to disagree with you until I understand what it is we're disagreeing about!
I still don't understand at all your point.
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xray - Mar 8, 2007 12:59 pm (#1620 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Actually I was in the middle of revising that last post when I got distracted and exceeded the time limit.
You said you lamented the lack of buildup, not in G->H but in H->G. I pointed out subtleties where Harry is realizing his attraction to Ginny but that's not enough because you only saw it in HBP, not in prior books.
I pointed out that usually it doesn't happen that way, that in most cases it's a stark realization on the part of the boy. You said Harry should have noticed Ginny in earlier books (maybe GoF?), that she was pretty, and when he found out she was dating Michael Corner it should have sparked some jealousy.
I do agree that it'd have been nice to see Harry realizing how pretty Ginny is in earlier books but wouldn't that have spilled the beans? It was very subtle, even in OotP we see it.
You wanted the relationship to be more obvious and less subtly shown, do I have this correct?
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 8, 2007 1:35 pm (#1621 of 1858)
Harry did not confide in Ginny in the chocolate scene. (I wish spoilers for the film were allowed here REALLY bad right now.) He told her he wanted to talk to Sirius, but not why, and more importantly he didn't tell her what was troubling him, although he easily could have in one or two sentences.
As for Ginny breaking into the broomshed, I don't buy it. Ginny may have told Hermione that, but as a mother of many, I don't see it being possible. Molly would keep track of the baby, especially her only girl, and with that many nosy, active, brothers around, in my opinion, someone would have noticed if she'd gone missing and gone flying. It makes no sense to me the way it was put. The twins just look like th type to spy, and if Molly couldn't keep an eye on the baby, I'd think she would tell one of the older kids to do it.
As for the Phlemg thing, it didn't make me see Ginny as more endearing just because it made Harry smile. Harry and Fleur parted on good terms after GoF with her acknowleding him as a champion and the savior of her sister. The fact that his apparent attraction for Ginny allows him to begin trashing Fleur, too, just to agree with Ginny, is sad to me.
It starts with that "scornful" comment from Ginny, "I suppose you like the way Plegm says "Arry, do you?" He doesn't even know what the situation really is in the house at that point, but he lets it stand.
I'm uncomfortable with the comments about sour grapes, and bitterness, and the supposed idea that nearly everyone saw the H/G coming. That's assuming a whole lot that can't be proven. There's just as many anti-H/G boards as pro-H/G, that I've seen.
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haymoni - Mar 8, 2007 1:59 pm (#1622 of 1858)
I don't think Harry liked the comments that Fleur made about the Burrow - he loves that place. He also knows that Fleur was pretty uppity until he saved her sister. Of course she loves him now, so she probably doesn't do anything to REALLY annoy Harry, but he can understand how Ginny & Molly can be offended.
If Harry had not smelled the Love Potion, he may not have made the Ginny connection, or at least it might have taken him a bit longer.
I think some boys just need to be hit on the head with a ton of bricks. If Ginny had not run to hug Harry, I don't think we would have seen anything happen between them at all. Harry would still be hung up on what Ron would think.
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TomProffitt - Mar 8, 2007 2:13 pm (#1623 of 1858)
Bullheaded empiricist
"If Ginny had not run to hug Harry, I don't think we would have seen anything happen between them at all. Harry would still be hung up on what Ron would think." --- haymoni
That's basically how I operated as a teen-age boy. The girls chased me until I caught them.
I think Harry and Ginny are showing a typical teen-age relationship which is very shallow on both of their parts in different places. I think it silly to expect to see Jo's long range plans for them completely revealed at the ages of fifteen and sixteen.
Frankly, I would be disappointed to see Ginny and Harry possess that perfect meant for each other relationship between equals at their current ages. To see that would be absurd.
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Sunny Baudelaire - Mar 8, 2007 11:12 pm (#1624 of 1858)
As far as Harry seeing Ginny as pretty earlier, Ginny always got positive physical descriptions from Harry.
Hermione's eyes were described as "brown", Luna's eyes were described as "protuberant" and "popping", and Ginny's were described as "bright brown". Who got the most positive description?
Hermione's hair is described as "bushy", Luna's hair is described as "straggly", and Ginny's is described as "vivid". Once again, who got the most positive description?
Die Z I'm uncomfortable with the comments about sour grapes, and bitterness, and the supposed idea that nearly everyone saw the H/G coming. That's assuming a whole lot that can't be proven. There's just as many anti-H/G boards as pro-H/G, that I've seen.
I think you are misstating what has been said. No one on this board ever declared that everyone saw Harry/Ginny coming. But I maintain that there were enough people who predicted it to make the claim "there was no evidence" not true.
Another point I made is that Half-Blood Prince was JKR's best reviewed book since Prisoner of Azkaban. That is a fact that can be proven. Read the reviews of Goblet of Fire, Order of the Phoenix, and Half-Blood Prince and see what I'm talking about.
And once again, not one professional book review I read, ever criticized Harry's girl friend or the way the relationship was written. Every time I see that aspect criticized, it is always someone involved in on-line fandom. And as far as that stands right now, that is a fact. If there are book reviews out there that do criticize Jo for that, then give me a link and I will come back to this thread and correct my statement and apologize.
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Wanda - Mar 9, 2007 2:49 am (#1625 of 1858)
Editor
So Die, you're basically calling Ginny a liar for telling Hermione she's been borrowing the boys' brooms (post #1621)? Why oh why oh why would she bother to lie to Hermione about something like this? There'd be absolutely no reason. Oh, and it also has absolutely nothing to do with 'shipping, so why say it here?
You really don't like this girl, huh? I just don't get why, though.
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Gatorgrad1991 - Mar 9, 2007 5:50 am (#1626 of 1858)
Die Z: Harry did not confide in Ginny in the chocolate scene. (I wish spoilers for the film were allowed here REALLY bad right now.) He told her he wanted to talk to Sirius, but not why, and more importantly he didn't tell her what was troubling him, although he easily could have in one or two sentences.
I know this is going to sound nasty and snarky, but I want to make sure I'm understanding your point here. What I'm getting is that you think because Harry didn't confide in Ginny as much as you, apparently, thought he should have that means he didn't confide in her at all? Is that about the gist of it? I have to wonder what you really expect out of these books at time. I really do.
The reality of that scene, taken in it's full context, makes it more than abundant clear that Harry confided in, or if you prefer shared a confidence with, Ginny. He told her something that he hadn't told anyone, not even his best friends Ron and Hermione - that he wanted to talk to Sirius. Why should it matter that he didn't tell her why he was upset or why he felt this seemingly urgent need to talk to his godfather. He told her something that he hadn't told ANYone else. Where I come from that rates as confiding.
I'm uncomfortable with the comments about sour grapes, and bitterness, and the supposed idea that nearly everyone saw the H/G coming. Did anyone say that "nearly everyone saw H/G coming"?. No. What was said was that enough people saw it coming, and correctly predicted it, to render the almost constant complaints of out-of-nowhere, no development, yada yada yada completely and utterly obsolete. And when those complaints come continuously from people that clearly hate the character of Ginny, or are just as clearly invested in another Harry pairing, then yeah. It does reek of sour grapes, especially since the complaining and griping has been going on for almost two years. If there wasn't an element of bitterness wouldn't the whole kerfluffle have died down by now?
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haymoni - Mar 9, 2007 7:00 am (#1627 of 1858)
Guys - give it up!
Die isn't going to start liking Ginny, just like she isn't going to start liking Molly.
It would have been much funner if Harry had fallen for Luna, but these books aren't romantic comedies.
We are just going to have to take Jo at her word and her written word and respect one another's opinions.
I just don't know how much further we can take these conversations without getting a thumping from the Moderators.
Now how about that wacky Filch & Madam Pince????
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Thom Matheson - Mar 9, 2007 7:29 am (#1628 of 1858)
I have been staring at this screen for a bit and posting a response, but no, other then to say Die, I applaud you for sticking to your guns in the face of it all. That said let us lighten up.
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Wanda - Mar 9, 2007 7:52 am (#1629 of 1858)
Editor
She doesn't like Molly?! Wow.
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haymoni - Mar 9, 2007 7:54 am (#1630 of 1858)
Cut it out!!!!!
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Thom Matheson - Mar 9, 2007 7:56 am (#1631 of 1858)
Wanda, stop it!!! Please read the rule here.
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Wanda - Mar 9, 2007 8:20 am (#1632 of 1858)
Editor
Oh... I'm sorry, but I was just surprised. I wasn't trying to inflame things, I just haven't had a chance to read every post on the Forum yet. Things come as a shock sometimes.
Look I don't mean to grumble, but I don't see that this is fair. People have been debating Harry/Ginny for months. I'm new here, so why shouldn't I join in?
Anyway... back to 'shipping...
I can't wait to see Ron and Hermione properly get together and have a good old snog. I feel that their relationship is still quite stilted, so I'd really like it if they dropped their barriers a bit more in DH.
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haymoni - Mar 9, 2007 8:24 am (#1633 of 1858)
Yes - comforting her while she was crying on her shoulder - not exactly fulfilling.
I'd like to see Harry walk in on them at the Burrow.
It would be really funny if Ron made the same noise coming up for air that he did with Lavender.
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Thom Matheson - Mar 9, 2007 8:30 am (#1634 of 1858)
Everyone's opinion is welcome here. Debating an issue is encouraged as well as constructive. Your's included. Just don't make it personal. If you read "Forum Guidelines at the top of the opening page, this will all make sense.
I look forward to seeing your thoughts throughout in the future.
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Puck - Mar 9, 2007 11:19 am (#1635 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I thought it took class for Harry not to reveal to any friends what he saw in the pensieve. It was not his memory to tell, and he never should have seen it.
Harry and Ginny spent the summer hanging out, laughing, basically having a good time. That's what their friendship was based on. As Tom point out, they are teenagers. By the end of the summer Harry already had new feelings for Ginny, it just took a brick for him to realize this.
Why not confide more in Ginny? Because he's Dumbuledore's man through and through, and DD said to only tell Ron and Hermione. Back in high school, my friends knew more about me than any boyfriends.
Oh, and he didn't brush her off when she asked about the book. He "gently" explained that it was just some hints written in the margins. I'm guessing she must have found out more detail about the book, as she told Hermione off when she harped on him about using it. Ginny seemed to know understand what Harry and Hermione were talking about in that scene.
I've seen plenty of cases where one person has feeling, and the other just feels friendship. Then one day, the second person wakes up and thinks "Wow! WHy didn't I see that before!" It's that sudden. (Just ask my brother and his wife. ) Seems perfectly normal to me.
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Fishcakes - Mar 9, 2007 1:29 pm (#1636 of 1858)
Harry did not confide in Ginny in the chocolate scene. [snip] He told her he wanted to talk to Sirius, but not why, and more importantly he didn't tell her what was troubling him, although he easily could have in one or two sentences.
Die, while I am sure I will not convince you to read this scene the way I do, maybe I/we can get you to at least understand why we see it a certain way.
I do believe that Harry confided in Ginny, I believe this because he told her something he was not willing to tell any one else. The memory is something that is between him, Sirius and Remus (and his father if he was still around.) His desire was to talk to them to find out exactly what happened. Ginny was not there when the incident happened, she wasn't even born. Also, that memory was obtained by dishonest means, and it would be fairly low of Harry to tell others of it. Yet, even though he lets Ron and Hermione, his usual confidants, carry on blissfully ignorant of even the smallest tidbit of what's actually bothering him, he does tell Ginny.
Harry was feeling very isolated in OotP, even from Ron and Hermione. That he told Ginny his desire during this time is very significant. It shows a growing friendship and growing trust. Of all the H/G moments, this is actually my favourite, not because it shows that they are so much in love (it doesn't), but because it shows that they communicate well, that Ginny can bring Harry out of his funk by being understanding and compassionate and that he trusts her when he trusts so few.
Also, I think Ginny told Harry something he will need to hold on to in DH -
'Anything is possible, if you've got enough nerve'
As for Ginny breaking into the broomshed, I don't buy it. Ginny may have told Hermione that, but as a mother of many, I don't see it being possible. Molly would keep track of the baby, especially her only girl, and with that many nosy, active, brothers around, in my opinion, someone would have noticed if she'd gone missing and gone flying. It makes no sense to me the way it was put. The twins just look like th type to spy, and if Molly couldn't keep an eye on the baby, I'd think she would tell one of the older kids to do it.
If you want, take this to the Ginny thread, I'm not sure this is the appropriate place to discuss this as it doesn't really relate to shipping.
As for the Phlemg thing, it didn't make me see Ginny as more endearing just because it made Harry smile. Harry and Fleur parted on good terms after GoF with her acknowleding him as a champion and the savior of her sister. The fact that his apparent attraction for Ginny allows him to begin trashing Fleur, too, just to agree with Ginny, is sad to me.
It starts with that "scornful" comment from Ginny, "I suppose you like the way Plegm says "Arry, do you?" He doesn't even know what the situation really is in the house at that point, but he lets it stand.
As much as I love Fleur, she comes across as a real pain in the proverbial to play host to, add to that that she treats Ginny like a child (any mother of teenagers will know that this is practically the number one cardinal sin when you are a teenager!!) So rather than lashing out at Fleur she pokes fun at her behind her back, much like when you get fed up of shipping debates and go and have a rant in a safe place. While I don't think name calling is very mature, I think it is more mature than being mean to Fleur to her face. Harry and Ginny have a very similar sense of humour, they have been sharing glances, giggles and jokes since PoA (possibly CoS, I can't remember what happens on the train home), often at other peoples expense. Harry is not so blind that he doesn't realise that Fleur is difficult, and takes time to get used to, no matter on what good terms they parted.
I'm uncomfortable with the comments about sour grapes, and bitterness, and the supposed idea that nearly everyone saw the H/G coming. That's assuming a whole lot that can't be proven. There's just as many anti-H/G boards as pro-H/G, that I've seen.
I don't think any one has claimed that everyone saw H/G coming. I didn't even think about it until OotP, and strangely enough it was the comment by Hermione about missing each other while her lips twitched that made me think of the possibility. That bit seemed to stand out almost, the comment made sense in the situation and yet didn't (I can't explain!) It was only after this, and after a re-read, that I started to notice all the little subtle clues I had missed before. In my defence, I read all of the first four books in quick succession and then OotP was released a week or two later. I wasn't involved in fandom and shipping had never occurred to me beyond thinking H/Hr was going to happen after watching the first two films (on the basic assumption of Hero gets main girl) that was rectified, after reading the books, to R/Hr. Even that was very much in the background.
Even though I saw H/G and have argued for it pre HBP I never really became a shipper until post HBP. I really do feel that for many H/G was meant to be picked up on a re-read. When you sit there and notice all the small scenes that slipped by the first time because they didn't seem relevant. For this to work, you have to keep your mind open. If you go in absolutely hating it, it is unlikely that you will suddenly fall in love with it. You just find ways to dismiss or change the meaning of scenes. It is hard not to do this when you already have preferences for something else (been there, done that), but it's not impossible, which is part of the reason that things sometimes come across as sour grapes. (You being a general you)
Also, when scenes that obviously have an entirely different meaning in the book are completely twisted around to mean something completely different, than this also comes across as sour grapes. Rather than just saying 'ok, so Harry and Ginny obviously enjoy each other's company, even if I don't like the ship' people come up with weak theories to try and explain it away, and try to pass them off as canon rather than fanon. Or they rant and rage at the author. These sorts of things come off as sour grapes, it is not so much the disliking, every body has their likes and dislikes, but the level of dislike and how it is expressed and dealt with, I think.
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xray - Mar 9, 2007 4:16 pm (#1637 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Just two quick comments to Die Zimtzicke. (Others have done such a brilliant job replying to the rest.)
Harry did not confide in Ginny in the chocolate scene. - DZ
If that's what you want to believe there's nothing wrong with it. I, and many others, interpret it differently, and IMO it's how Rowling intended it to be interpreted. She's so deliciously subtle.
As for Ginny breaking into the broomshed, I don't buy it.
Oooh, you could be on to something here! If Ginny didn't break into the broomshed like you think, then that means she must have learned to fly almost instantly like Harry did! OOOOh! After all, they are equals. Thanks for the idea, Die!
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TheSaint - Mar 9, 2007 4:26 pm (#1638 of 1858)
opens umbrella to shield from sarcasm dripping from above*
I, for one, find shipping the least interesting aspect of the series, but this thread the most entertaining. Same argument for two years...LOL
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S.E. Jones - Mar 9, 2007 7:25 pm (#1639 of 1858)
Let it snow!
Gatorgrad --What was said was that enough people saw it coming, and correctly predicted it, to render the almost constant complaints of out-of-nowhere, no development, yada yada yada completely and utterly obsolete. And when those complaints come continuously from people that clearly hate the character of Ginny, or are just as clearly invested in another Harry pairing, then yeah. It does reek of sour grapes...--
And what about those who, like myself, correctly predicted it, love Ginny's character, don't want to see Harry with anyone else, and still don't like how it was written? I said I would "agree to disagree" and stop my half of the debate, and I'm sticking to that (sorry, xray), but I'm only bringing this up to make a point. Everyone has a right to their opinion, as long as that opinion is stated in a mature and civil manner. If you disagree with someone's opinion, fine, but don't bring "sour grapes" into, from either side, or you will be kipendoed. No members' post is "obsolete" or "invalid" just because you disagree. If you don't want to argue the same point over and over, then don't. That's why we have the mantra "agree to disagree".
Perhaps the same argument has been going on for two years, but do you realize how long the "H/Hr"-"R/Hr" argument went on for? And for those who were convinced it would be H/Hr, every passage in the book supported their view, and for those who were convinced it would be R/Hr, every passage in the book supported their view. Everyone has a right to their own interpretation of what they read. For some of us, this is an old argument, but for others among us it is new, so don't hold it against someone if they want to join in. If it's old for you, bring up a different topic to discuss. Threads are capable of obliging two discussions at once.
And now, I will step down from my host's soapbox....
xray --S.E. Jones, I cannot agree to disagree with you until I understand what it is we're disagreeing about!... You wanted the relationship to be more obvious and less subtly shown, do I have this correct?--
I'm afraid you still don't have it correct, xray. I've made my points, all the ones I'm going to make; I guess you're just going to have to re-read my posts, in full, and contemplate them a bit. I'm sorry you feel that way about letting the discussion go.....
Wanda --I can't wait to see Ron and Hermione properly get together and have a good old snog. I feel that their relationship is still quite stilted, so I'd really like it if they dropped their barriers a bit more in DH.--
What do you think will happen at the wedding? It will be another chance for them to see each other in their formal clothes (Ron finally has a formal robe that doesn't look like it belong's in a Meatloaf video) and weddings can be romantic settings for the guests (think about it, you see everyone in their best clothes, you see these two people making this loving commitment, there's dancing, etc.)....
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Puck - Mar 9, 2007 7:33 pm (#1640 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Did Jo ever confirm the Filch?Pince thing, or is the fact that they are standing together at the end of HBP another subtle take-it-as-you-wish moment?
Fishcakes, where is that scene in OotP when Hermione's lips twitch when she comments about people missing each other?
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Sunny Baudelaire - Mar 9, 2007 9:51 pm (#1641 of 1858)
Puck, I'm not Fishcakes, but I can answer the question.
It's during the "Lucky You" scene when Ron, Hermione & Ginny confront Harry after he learns he was possessed.
"It's you lot that won't look at me!" said Harry angrily.
"Maybe you're taking it in turns to look and keep missing each other," suggested Hermione, the corners of her mouth twitching.
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Fishcakes - Mar 10, 2007 3:43 am (#1642 of 1858)
That's the one Sunny Baudelaire, I'll just expand it a little.
She sat down next to Ginny, and the two girls and Ron all looked up at Harry.
“How’re you feeling?” asked Hermione.
“Fine,” said Harry stiffly.
“Oh, don’t lie, Harry,” she said impatiently. “Ron and Ginny say you’ve been hiding from everyone since you got back from St. Mungo’s.”
“They do, do they?” said Harry, glaring at Ron and Ginny. Ron looked down at his feet but Ginny seemed quite unabashed.
“Well, you have!” she said. “And you won’t look at any of us!”
“It’s you lot who won’t look at me!” said Harry angrily.
“Maybe you’re taking it in turns to look, and keep missing each other,” suggested Hermione, the corners of her mouth twitching.
“Very funny,” snapped Harry, turning away.
I'm not claiming it was a valid tip off, but it may have just made little pieces of H/G that I had picked up without realising fall in place together. I think it was more the twitching than the comment itself, it almost seemed un-hermioneish in this situation!
Ginny having a crush, then seemingly moving on with her life. Harry is then hit over the head when Ginny totally puts him in his place in the whole lucky you scene. (With out the lucky you scene, I don't think Harry would have confided in Ginny in the library later on.) It seemed only a matter of time before Harry developed feelings for Ginny, and then he would be the one crushing while she dated others. Classic romantic irony!
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xray - Mar 10, 2007 9:13 am (#1643 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Hermione is such a Harry/Ginny shipper!
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Puck - Mar 10, 2007 9:57 am (#1644 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Hermione is a romantic. She's great at helping others with their relationships, just can't seem to sort out her own.
I was thinking, she told Ginny to move on and date other boys, and Harry may notice her in time. Do you think that's what she was doing with Viktor? Moving on to someone else to get Ron to take notice? Ginny met Micheal Corner at the Yule ball, so the timing seems about right...
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Sunny Baudelaire - Mar 10, 2007 11:38 am (#1645 of 1858)
In one of JKR's diary entries she mentions how she stopped by Leavesden studios and chatted with all the young actors/actresses. She mentioned that she and Emma talked about Hermione's love life. What I wouldn't have given to have been a fly on the wall during that converstation!
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Fishcakes - Mar 10, 2007 12:56 pm (#1646 of 1858)
I was thinking, she told Ginny to move on and date other boys, and Harry may notice her in time. Do you think that's what she was doing with Viktor? Moving on to someone else to get Ron to take notice? Ginny met Micheal Corner at the Yule ball, so the timing seems about right...
I don't think it was to get Ron to notice (that's what McClaggen was for
I think it was more of a case of not wanting to wait. Ginny was different in that she wasn't herself around Harry, so Hermione advised her to move on in the hopes that she would then be better able to act like herself. Dating other people was just part of that, not to get Harry to notice, Ginny being herself would hopefully do that. Ginny may have found someone else she liked instead, but Dean and Michael weren't what she was looking for.
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Hoot Owl - Mar 10, 2007 2:29 pm (#1647 of 1858)
Teacher
Wasn't Hermione's advice that if Ginny ' acted more like herself' then Harry might take notice? I think Hermione told her that way back in POA when she and Ginny shared a room at the Leaky Cauldron. She probably saw that Ginny acted differently when Harry was not around.
The " get on with your life " advice may have been when Neville ask her {both of them) to the Yule Ball. It does seem like the right timing. Maybe Ginny started to say no then Hermione pulled her aside, told her Harry was going to ask Cho not her and she should get on with her life and not wait until Harry noticed.
Hermione had already accepted Viktor's invitation by then. I do think Hermione expected Ron to be more impressed by her going to the ball with his idol. She seemed surprised by the intensity of his jealousy. You would think she would have known that he would react that way.
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Puck - Mar 10, 2007 2:41 pm (#1648 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Poor Ginny must have been so devastated when Ron suggested Harry take Ginny, and she had already said yes to Neville. Then again, watching him watch Cho and Cedric all night wouldn't have been a picnic either.
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xray - Mar 10, 2007 4:11 pm (#1649 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Great point, Puck! Here I was merely lamenting Ginny's loss at an opportunity to go with Harry to the ball when I hadn't even considered why she shouldn't. Jo's so sneaky and clever sometimes, it's scary.
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Puck - Mar 10, 2007 5:23 pm (#1650 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Exactly. The twins were merely annoyed with Ron and Harry, and were happy to go dance with other boys. Ginny would have been devastated. (Plus afraid to speak -or trip, or step on his toes, etc...)
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 10, 2007 9:32 pm (#1651 of 1858)
When it comes to the most postive descriptions from Harry, I think Cedric Diggory wins hands down. LOL! Harry sometimes looks at Ginny and is reminded of Molly and/or the twins. I don't think that's romantic foreshadowing there. At least I hope not.
And by the way, Ginny never missed an opportunity to go to the ball with Harry, because he never asked her, even when he was desperate for a date. Ron thought of it, but Harry never even considered it on his own, and even though it's from Harry's point of view, when Ginny had a date with Neville, Harry never even thought, "Oh, drat! I can't even get her."
He never regretted not asking her after he found out she was going with Neville. He just moved onto the next girl that came along, Parvati, who he has also described in positive terms, at least as far as her hair goes.
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haymoni - Mar 10, 2007 9:40 pm (#1652 of 1858)
Who was is - Dean or Seamus - that said Parvati & Padme were the best looking girls in their year?
It must not have been too much of a "settlement" - going with the best-looking 4th years.
Wonder why nobody asked them sooner??
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Rosie Lu - Mar 11, 2007 4:25 am (#1653 of 1858)
I've always wondered why no one asked Parvati and Padma sooner, if they were the best looking girls in their year (according to Dean).
He never regretted not asking her after he found out she was going with Neville. He just moved onto the next girl that came along, Parvati, who he has also described in positive terms, at least as far as her hair goes.
But it is after Ginny leaves the common room and after Hermione storms out that Harry says that the time has come for "drastic action". I think Jo was having a little fun there with the boys - they almost had their chance to go with Ginny and Hermione, but of course, the time wasn't right for that yet.
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Puck - Mar 11, 2007 7:50 am (#1654 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I just love that part when it suddenly dawns on Ron that Hermione is a girl. "Oh, well spotted!"
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Lina - Mar 11, 2007 9:17 am (#1655 of 1858)
Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Maybe Harry just respected Ginny too much to ask her to go with him instead of the girl he wanted to be with. At that moment, when he realized he can't go with the girl from his dreams, he had to ask someone he didn't care too much about.
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Puck - Mar 11, 2007 10:27 am (#1656 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Or at that point she was more Ron's little sister to him than a girl. We saw how hard it was for him to make that transition.
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frogface - Mar 11, 2007 12:04 pm (#1657 of 1858)
I think Harry would have gone with Ginny if she hadn't already said yes to Neville. So it was a missed opportunity for her in my opinion. But like Rosie Lu said - it wasn't the right time for Harry or Ron to get their girls yet, they both still had a lot of growing up to do. I don't think Hermione had fully admitted to herself that she had feelings for Ron at that point, his jealous reaction probably woke them both up a bit - the same way it woke Harry up when he saw Ginny with Dean.
As for the twins not being asked before, well we don't know who asked them before Harry. But its possible they turned down several offers in the hope that someone better would come along.
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Hoot Owl - Mar 11, 2007 9:25 pm (#1658 of 1858)
Teacher
Maybe the twins weren't as adverse as Ginny to trading up? Harry besides being famous, was a school champion and Ron is a tall apparently good looking boy. Parvati seemed astounded that Hermione wasn't going to the Ball with him.
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frogface - Mar 12, 2007 4:47 am (#1659 of 1858)
I wouldn't say she seemed astounded. All she did was suggest Ron go with Hermione. Being a girl it was probably 10 times more obvious was was going on between Ron and Hermione than it was to Harry or Ron.
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haymoni - Mar 12, 2007 6:02 am (#1660 of 1858)
They often say that sometimes the prettiest girls aren't asked because everybody thinks someone else has already asked them or because there isn't a boy confident enough to ask them.
Maybe that's what happened with the Twins - although it does seems strange that we don't hear about how pretty they are until now.
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Eponine - Mar 12, 2007 6:08 am (#1661 of 1858)
Every time you guys refer to the Patil twins as the Twins, I keep thinking you mean Fred and George, and it takes me a second to get unconfused. =)
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Steve Newton - Mar 12, 2007 6:59 am (#1662 of 1858)
Librarian
Eponine, I wouldn't worry about that. In a few short years it will take you hours or even days to get unconfused.
I'm just trying to comfort you.
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journeymom - Mar 12, 2007 9:53 am (#1663 of 1858)
Eponine, do you feel comforted? Lol!
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Thom Matheson - Mar 12, 2007 2:39 pm (#1664 of 1858)
And I thought that you meant my brother Tim and I.
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Puck - Mar 12, 2007 2:46 pm (#1665 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Yes, Thom, I'm sure you and your brother are very pretty and anyone would be thrilled to take you to the ball.
I thought Parvati was astounded that Hermione had been asked to the ball before she was. She was shocked that someone other than Ron or Harry would want to take her.
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haymoni - Mar 12, 2007 3:22 pm (#1666 of 1858)
I thought she was just a big gossip hound.
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Eponine - Mar 12, 2007 6:41 pm (#1667 of 1858)
I'm so comforted.
Parvati does seem the gossipy type.
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Thom Matheson - Mar 12, 2007 7:17 pm (#1668 of 1858)
Thank you Puck, Tim is not nearly as cute as I, even though we are identical. By the way, did you hear about..........
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Muggle Doctor - Mar 13, 2007 6:32 am (#1669 of 1858)
I have always been convinced that it will be HG, RH in canon, simply because the pureblood needs to marry the Muggleborn and Harry needs to marry into the large, loving family he never had as a kid. :-) Good reasons for both 'ships.
That being the case, I have never had a problem with the Harry/Hermione shippers (and was aggressively one myself after GoF the book), nor Harry/Luna (especially after their chat about Sirius etc. at the end of Book 5 - I think JKR left some threads loose there for the fanficcers to seize).
However, I think that as 'experts' of a sort, and relatively sensible experts at that, we get far too hung up on staying true to Canon and/or being displeased with Canon when it doesn't seem (for what we consider to be very good reasons) to serve up either the combination we want, or the way in which we want it done.
I think everyone's pretty much accepted, on the face of it, which the canon ships are going to be. I know there are probably going to be readers joining us as soon as Deathly Hallows is out, not only who have picked up DH but who might have bought the other six books at the same time because they finally got interested and 'now I can read the whole thing in one go, without having to wait'. (Lucky them.) Those people are going to have their own ideas, as they plough through, on exactly who is right for whom. Some of them are going to be fanfiction authors who have their own ideas about who is right for whom.
I think it should be permissible to discuss the possibilities we know are never going to happen. I think we need to be very careful with the new readership (as and if it comes in), and how quickly or 'brutally' we dismiss their wrong ideas, where they are wrong, and try not to give too much away.
I've written all sorts of ships - Harry/Hermione, Harry/Hannah Abbott, and a couple I would get deleted for mentioning, just to name a few. The important thing is that in my own mind, I had valid reasons for putting them together. I think if someone comes in with an offbeat or out-of-left-field theory, we need to gently tease out of them what their valid reasons are: everyone likes to talk about their own opinion, and it is far better to get someone to realize through a process of careful analysis that they CAN'T justify their ship, than to just drop an anvil-sized hint on their head and tell them they are wrong.
On the other hand, there's nothing wrong (and lots admirable) with a firm stance like that made by Prefect Marcus so long ago, when he tried to insist that Harry and Pansy Parkinson were made for each other. The fascinating thing was, some of his reasoning actually made good sense (though I never agreed with the whole of it), and you could buy into that argument if you really wanted to. He had done a lot of work and made it plausible.
So there's nothing wrong with holding new members up to "standards of scholarship", but it doesn't matter if we are wrong. And the truth has still to be revealed, four months from now. Let's have fun with our wild ideas while we still have some options left to talk about! The speculative aspect will probably be dead after July 22, but until then, long live the speculative aspect.
The last thing I want is for this thread to decay into regurgitated post-DH theories of why things had to be the way they were, or couldn't have been something else. If, after all is revealed, people see possible divergence points (what fanficcers would call AU fic opportunities), I think we should discuss those. And we should also take pains to be able to criticise our own theories, and show both sides of the coin! We have been far too partisan about our own personal biases.
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Puck - Mar 13, 2007 7:19 am (#1670 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Muggle DOc, have you voted on the "Ships that never sailed" thread? Some interesting pairins to consider over there. :simle:
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journeymom - Mar 13, 2007 12:06 pm (#1671 of 1858)
Muggle Doctor, brilliantly said.
Are any of your fictions archived online?
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xray - Mar 13, 2007 2:36 pm (#1672 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
I've always wondered why no one asked Parvati and Padma sooner, if they were the best looking girls in their year (according to Dean). - Rosie Lu
I've wondered about this too and the only reason I can think of, although I hate to say it, is that it may be because they are of foreign descent.
not only who have picked up DH but who might have bought the other six books at the same time because they finally got interested and 'now I can read the whole thing in one go, without having to wait'. (Lucky them.) - Muggle Doctor
I strongly believe that we got the advantage here (Lucky us). I read PS/SS straight through OotP in two weeks. I didn't understand why everyone was so upset with Sirius' death in OotP. Now I know. When you invest so much time speculating about the characters, they become so much closer to the heart and affect you emotionally when you read about them in the next book. Likewise I think it can be just as painful, if not more, to shippers when they discover they were wrong. Just like those who continue to believe that Sirius is not dead, some shippers believe their ship may still have a chance even when the possibility is nil.
The ones who read all seven books straight through without deliberating for years in between are ultimately the losers; they won't get to experience the emotional highs and lows associated with Harry Potter and his friends' successes as we have.
p.s. If lucky them was meant sarcastically, I missed it (sorry).
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TheSaint - Mar 13, 2007 2:42 pm (#1673 of 1858)
xray - I've wondered about this too and the only reason I can think of, although I hate to say it, is that it may be because they are of foreign descent.
Ummm...yeah. I think I will stick with the pretty girl gets asked last theory.
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xray - Mar 13, 2007 2:45 pm (#1674 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
I like that one much better too. It's happier
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frogface - Mar 13, 2007 2:55 pm (#1675 of 1858)
Strangely enough, I don't think race is really an issue in the magical world. If it is then its never been brought up. I think the mainstream predujuces are that of which species you are (Centuars and Humans don't seem to get on) and how "pure" your blood line is.
The "too pretty" option makes more sense to me.
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juliebug - Mar 13, 2007 2:59 pm (#1676 of 1858)
I thought that maybe these were the sort of girls who received multiple invitations and put off making a decision as long as possible. Just to make sure nothing better came their way as soon as they committed to a date. Just a thought.
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TomProffitt - Mar 14, 2007 6:00 am (#1677 of 1858)
Bullheaded empiricist
I've wondered about this too and the only reason I can think of, although I hate to say it, is that it may be because they are of foreign descent. --- xray
We should probably consider age as well. The prettiest fourteen year old girls aren't going to attract near as much attention as the prettiest seventeen year old girls.
You've also got the whole nerve/fear issue with the boys of their age, too; I'd wager that for the fourteen year old boys (and most of the fifteens) that they've never asked a girl out before. That's quite intimidating enough with out asking "the prettiest girls" in your year.
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frogface - Mar 14, 2007 7:28 am (#1678 of 1858)
Plus lets not forget that Parvati is a bit annoying
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 14, 2007 7:50 am (#1679 of 1858)
Yes, Parvati's is a bit annoying, but so are a lot of girls who got dates. She's not any more annoying than is normal for a girl that age, and would boys get into all of those things she does that seem annoying to the readers anyway? Boys at that age sometimes go for looks first, and a lot of the other stuff goes over their heads. Example: Ron. I personally thought Lavender was more annoying, but maybe that's just me.
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Thom Matheson - Mar 14, 2007 8:29 am (#1680 of 1858)
Lavender is a pain in the kister. Also remember that boys tend to think that the pretty girls are so pretty they would never want to go out with them and they just fail to ask for fear of rejection.
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haymoni - Mar 14, 2007 8:29 am (#1681 of 1858)
I always found them BOTH annoying - from Book 1 even - except when Parvati stuck up for Neville.
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frogface - Mar 14, 2007 8:47 am (#1682 of 1858)
I was only being half-serious I don't find Parvati annoying - because she is a character in a book. So if she's ever irritating me I can just put the book down and come back later! But I think I would find both Parvati and Lavander annoying if I ever had to go to school with either of them. And their giggles would have put me off as a teenage boy looking for a date. The lead up to the Yule ball is one of my favourite moments in all the books - it reflects so accurately the sort of anguish teens put themselves through. "Why do they have move in packs?" is probably the best line ever! It's so true! I'm sure I remember thinking things almost like that at my age. And the way Harry notices that Hogwarts is actually full of girls - brilliant.
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haymoni - Mar 14, 2007 9:36 am (#1683 of 1858)
I'm sure Jo's experience as a teacher let her see all that first hand.
I think that part was captured perfectly.
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mona amon - Mar 14, 2007 7:27 pm (#1684 of 1858)
Maybe not many realised the Patil twins were good looking, until they were all dressed up for the ball.
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 14, 2007 8:35 pm (#1685 of 1858)
If that were the case no one would have asked Ron and Harry how they got dates with the prettiest girls in their year. Which is canon.
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xray - Mar 14, 2007 10:30 pm (#1686 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Canon according to Dean. No argument here
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Eponine - Mar 15, 2007 6:23 am (#1687 of 1858)
Canon according to Dean. - xray
True. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Not to say that Parvati and Padma weren't attractive girls, but not everyone might consider them to be the prettiest.
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Puck - Mar 15, 2007 9:24 am (#1688 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Especially with Fleur floating around with her Veela charms.
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 15, 2007 2:34 pm (#1689 of 1858)
I'm (again!) borrowing an idea being discussed on other boards. What effect would it have on Ron and Hermione's relationship if he ever found out she confunded McClaggan? Would he be pleased she helped him, or disappointed that she didn't think he could do it on his own?
I think it would hurt his pride at least a bit and they might have an argument over it. How likely does anyone think it is he'll NEVER find out?
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journeymom - Mar 15, 2007 6:07 pm (#1690 of 1858)
I think it would hurt his pride AND he'd be pleased she did that for him, and I hope he never finds out.
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Puck - Mar 15, 2007 7:36 pm (#1691 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Only two people know, and they will never tell...
...because they both know it would cause a fight.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 15, 2007 11:20 pm (#1692 of 1858)
Let it snow!
I think whether it would cause a fight depends on how long they're together before he finds out. If he finds out in the next year or two he'll probably blow up at her (think of how he reacted over her thinking he took the Felix potion). If he finds out years down the line after they've been married for several decades and have a house-full of kids, he'll probably threaten to bring it up every now just to make her mad but otherwise laugh about it. Either way, I seriously doubt it will hurt their relationship.
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mona amon - Mar 16, 2007 4:18 am (#1693 of 1858)
If that were the case no one would have asked Ron and Harry how they got dates with the prettiest girls in their year. Which is canon.(Die Zimtzicke)
True. I was under the (mistaken) impression that Dean made that remark after the Yule Ball.
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Puck - Mar 16, 2007 7:26 am (#1694 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Well, it could be only Dean thinks them the prettiest. Or perhaps Jo was using this to show how much Ron and Harry liked the other two girls. Even with beauties on their arms, they only had eyes for Cho and Hermione.
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haymoni - Mar 16, 2007 7:49 am (#1695 of 1858)
I remember thinking it strange that Dean hadn't asked Parvati.
I guess I always pair Dean & Seamus together and I pair Lavender & Parvati together.
If Seamus had asked Lavender, why didn't Dean ask Parvati?
Did Dean even go to the Ball???
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Muggle Doctor - Mar 16, 2007 8:29 am (#1696 of 1858)
A few points to those who answered my post.
Much of my fic is archived on line in places which might not be considered work or child safe. To be blunt, the sites feature slash fanfic and other such things as well as the tame stuff. Also, some of it is drabbles (100 words or less), and very much spur of the moment.
I think new readers ARE lucky being able to read the whole thing in one go. But that doesn't mean they have to race through them from start to finish; just that they will not have to wait the years we have had to wait. Each book will be fresh in their minds when they start the next. I think there is a difference between the first slow and careful read, and a re-read where it is harder to read every word, as it were, because your mind is already familiar with "what happens". In that sense, they have the advantage. They can read all seven books as new, fresh originals and maintain the suspense and anticipation all the way through, yet they are free to stop for a short time and digest/discuss what they have read before moving on.
Also, I have spent a lot of time off this board because it's been a long time between books and I had pretty much run out of things to say for a while. At least newbies will be able to get their theories out there and quickly have them supported or demolished ("Just finished book five, and I think Harry's going to hook up with Luna next... oh hello, whoops! Didn't see that coming!") without the agony of having to thrash ideas back and forth ad nauseam. It cuts both ways.
JM2K
PS I should probably start reading all six books again.
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totyle - Mar 20, 2007 1:38 am (#1697 of 1858)
There's a certain kind of ecstatic feeling in getting to read the books all at one go as I found out, as I came aboard only a year or so after OotP came out. It was like having a treasure trove at hand...indescribable..the joy of having 5 HP books to read at a go...some things words just can't express...
But then...I came across The Lexicon while whiling away my time till HBP came out and that's quite another feeling altogether....however pathetic though it sounds..just like Luna says..it was like having friends (real life friends just didnt get it)...enjoying the intense debates and being amazed at the way every single character gets dissected by the fans..
It really gives new meaning to reading and enjoying a book when all the time at the back of my mind I am recalling what forum posters have said about things like certain pairings and trying to look at it from their point of view...
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S.E. Jones - Mar 20, 2007 5:23 pm (#1698 of 1858)
Let it snow!
We need to find a different thread to discuss the pros and cons of waiting for the books or reading them in one go, etc. This thread is for 'shipping so let's get back on topic.
I'll try this question again: What do you think will happen between Ron and Hermione at Bill's wedding? It will be another chance for them to see each other in their formal clothes (Ron finally has a formal robe that doesn't look like it belong's in a Meatloaf video) and weddings can be romantic settings for the guests (think about it, you see everyone in their best clothes, you see these two people making this loving commitment, there's dancing, etc.)....
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 20, 2007 8:55 pm (#1699 of 1858)
I'm not sure, but I think the wedding has a big target painted all over it, and that there won't be much time for extra shipping there, due to some kind of attack or disaster. But that might just be me.
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totyle - Mar 20, 2007 9:49 pm (#1700 of 1858)
Traditionally, however fast paced, however action packed a story is there will be a moment of respite given to the characters..I believe Bill and Fleur's wedding day will be that moment in the last book. For eg in stories like Romancing The Stone, Bird on a Wire..(I cant think of any other eg at the moment!) there's a moment for the hero and heroine (in this case H/G, R/Hr, L/T..anyone I missed?!) to get together in a romantic setting despite having the crooks at their heels just a scene ago...
So Yes..IMO I think Bill and Fleur's wedding day will be the momentary 'feel good time' before the onset of the darkness. In HBP last chapter, last paragraph Harry felt his heart lift at the thought that there would still be one last golden day of peace left to enjoy with Ron and Hermione (funny he doesnt think Ginny..hmmm)..so I'm guessing that this will be given to us...if it isn't Im going to feel quite cheated...Im looking forward to that..I wouldnt want the last book to be all darkness without the golden moment to strengthen me up before the showdown.
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When it comes to the most postive descriptions from Harry, I think Cedric Diggory wins hands down. LOL! Harry sometimes looks at Ginny and is reminded of Molly and/or the twins. I don't think that's romantic foreshadowing there. At least I hope not.
And by the way, Ginny never missed an opportunity to go to the ball with Harry, because he never asked her, even when he was desperate for a date. Ron thought of it, but Harry never even considered it on his own, and even though it's from Harry's point of view, when Ginny had a date with Neville, Harry never even thought, "Oh, drat! I can't even get her."
He never regretted not asking her after he found out she was going with Neville. He just moved onto the next girl that came along, Parvati, who he has also described in positive terms, at least as far as her hair goes.
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haymoni - Mar 10, 2007 9:40 pm (#1652 of 1858)
Who was is - Dean or Seamus - that said Parvati & Padme were the best looking girls in their year?
It must not have been too much of a "settlement" - going with the best-looking 4th years.
Wonder why nobody asked them sooner??
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Rosie Lu - Mar 11, 2007 4:25 am (#1653 of 1858)
I've always wondered why no one asked Parvati and Padma sooner, if they were the best looking girls in their year (according to Dean).
He never regretted not asking her after he found out she was going with Neville. He just moved onto the next girl that came along, Parvati, who he has also described in positive terms, at least as far as her hair goes.
But it is after Ginny leaves the common room and after Hermione storms out that Harry says that the time has come for "drastic action". I think Jo was having a little fun there with the boys - they almost had their chance to go with Ginny and Hermione, but of course, the time wasn't right for that yet.
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Puck - Mar 11, 2007 7:50 am (#1654 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I just love that part when it suddenly dawns on Ron that Hermione is a girl. "Oh, well spotted!"
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Lina - Mar 11, 2007 9:17 am (#1655 of 1858)
Kate's new T-shirt and henna tattoo
Maybe Harry just respected Ginny too much to ask her to go with him instead of the girl he wanted to be with. At that moment, when he realized he can't go with the girl from his dreams, he had to ask someone he didn't care too much about.
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Puck - Mar 11, 2007 10:27 am (#1656 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Or at that point she was more Ron's little sister to him than a girl. We saw how hard it was for him to make that transition.
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frogface - Mar 11, 2007 12:04 pm (#1657 of 1858)
I think Harry would have gone with Ginny if she hadn't already said yes to Neville. So it was a missed opportunity for her in my opinion. But like Rosie Lu said - it wasn't the right time for Harry or Ron to get their girls yet, they both still had a lot of growing up to do. I don't think Hermione had fully admitted to herself that she had feelings for Ron at that point, his jealous reaction probably woke them both up a bit - the same way it woke Harry up when he saw Ginny with Dean.
As for the twins not being asked before, well we don't know who asked them before Harry. But its possible they turned down several offers in the hope that someone better would come along.
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Hoot Owl - Mar 11, 2007 9:25 pm (#1658 of 1858)
Teacher
Maybe the twins weren't as adverse as Ginny to trading up? Harry besides being famous, was a school champion and Ron is a tall apparently good looking boy. Parvati seemed astounded that Hermione wasn't going to the Ball with him.
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frogface - Mar 12, 2007 4:47 am (#1659 of 1858)
I wouldn't say she seemed astounded. All she did was suggest Ron go with Hermione. Being a girl it was probably 10 times more obvious was was going on between Ron and Hermione than it was to Harry or Ron.
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haymoni - Mar 12, 2007 6:02 am (#1660 of 1858)
They often say that sometimes the prettiest girls aren't asked because everybody thinks someone else has already asked them or because there isn't a boy confident enough to ask them.
Maybe that's what happened with the Twins - although it does seems strange that we don't hear about how pretty they are until now.
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Eponine - Mar 12, 2007 6:08 am (#1661 of 1858)
Every time you guys refer to the Patil twins as the Twins, I keep thinking you mean Fred and George, and it takes me a second to get unconfused. =)
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Steve Newton - Mar 12, 2007 6:59 am (#1662 of 1858)
Librarian
Eponine, I wouldn't worry about that. In a few short years it will take you hours or even days to get unconfused.
I'm just trying to comfort you.
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journeymom - Mar 12, 2007 9:53 am (#1663 of 1858)
Eponine, do you feel comforted? Lol!
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Thom Matheson - Mar 12, 2007 2:39 pm (#1664 of 1858)
And I thought that you meant my brother Tim and I.
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Puck - Mar 12, 2007 2:46 pm (#1665 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Yes, Thom, I'm sure you and your brother are very pretty and anyone would be thrilled to take you to the ball.
I thought Parvati was astounded that Hermione had been asked to the ball before she was. She was shocked that someone other than Ron or Harry would want to take her.
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haymoni - Mar 12, 2007 3:22 pm (#1666 of 1858)
I thought she was just a big gossip hound.
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Eponine - Mar 12, 2007 6:41 pm (#1667 of 1858)
I'm so comforted.
Parvati does seem the gossipy type.
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Thom Matheson - Mar 12, 2007 7:17 pm (#1668 of 1858)
Thank you Puck, Tim is not nearly as cute as I, even though we are identical. By the way, did you hear about..........
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Muggle Doctor - Mar 13, 2007 6:32 am (#1669 of 1858)
I have always been convinced that it will be HG, RH in canon, simply because the pureblood needs to marry the Muggleborn and Harry needs to marry into the large, loving family he never had as a kid. :-) Good reasons for both 'ships.
That being the case, I have never had a problem with the Harry/Hermione shippers (and was aggressively one myself after GoF the book), nor Harry/Luna (especially after their chat about Sirius etc. at the end of Book 5 - I think JKR left some threads loose there for the fanficcers to seize).
However, I think that as 'experts' of a sort, and relatively sensible experts at that, we get far too hung up on staying true to Canon and/or being displeased with Canon when it doesn't seem (for what we consider to be very good reasons) to serve up either the combination we want, or the way in which we want it done.
I think everyone's pretty much accepted, on the face of it, which the canon ships are going to be. I know there are probably going to be readers joining us as soon as Deathly Hallows is out, not only who have picked up DH but who might have bought the other six books at the same time because they finally got interested and 'now I can read the whole thing in one go, without having to wait'. (Lucky them.) Those people are going to have their own ideas, as they plough through, on exactly who is right for whom. Some of them are going to be fanfiction authors who have their own ideas about who is right for whom.
I think it should be permissible to discuss the possibilities we know are never going to happen. I think we need to be very careful with the new readership (as and if it comes in), and how quickly or 'brutally' we dismiss their wrong ideas, where they are wrong, and try not to give too much away.
I've written all sorts of ships - Harry/Hermione, Harry/Hannah Abbott, and a couple I would get deleted for mentioning, just to name a few. The important thing is that in my own mind, I had valid reasons for putting them together. I think if someone comes in with an offbeat or out-of-left-field theory, we need to gently tease out of them what their valid reasons are: everyone likes to talk about their own opinion, and it is far better to get someone to realize through a process of careful analysis that they CAN'T justify their ship, than to just drop an anvil-sized hint on their head and tell them they are wrong.
On the other hand, there's nothing wrong (and lots admirable) with a firm stance like that made by Prefect Marcus so long ago, when he tried to insist that Harry and Pansy Parkinson were made for each other. The fascinating thing was, some of his reasoning actually made good sense (though I never agreed with the whole of it), and you could buy into that argument if you really wanted to. He had done a lot of work and made it plausible.
So there's nothing wrong with holding new members up to "standards of scholarship", but it doesn't matter if we are wrong. And the truth has still to be revealed, four months from now. Let's have fun with our wild ideas while we still have some options left to talk about! The speculative aspect will probably be dead after July 22, but until then, long live the speculative aspect.
The last thing I want is for this thread to decay into regurgitated post-DH theories of why things had to be the way they were, or couldn't have been something else. If, after all is revealed, people see possible divergence points (what fanficcers would call AU fic opportunities), I think we should discuss those. And we should also take pains to be able to criticise our own theories, and show both sides of the coin! We have been far too partisan about our own personal biases.
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Puck - Mar 13, 2007 7:19 am (#1670 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Muggle DOc, have you voted on the "Ships that never sailed" thread? Some interesting pairins to consider over there. :simle:
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journeymom - Mar 13, 2007 12:06 pm (#1671 of 1858)
Muggle Doctor, brilliantly said.
Are any of your fictions archived online?
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xray - Mar 13, 2007 2:36 pm (#1672 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
I've always wondered why no one asked Parvati and Padma sooner, if they were the best looking girls in their year (according to Dean). - Rosie Lu
I've wondered about this too and the only reason I can think of, although I hate to say it, is that it may be because they are of foreign descent.
not only who have picked up DH but who might have bought the other six books at the same time because they finally got interested and 'now I can read the whole thing in one go, without having to wait'. (Lucky them.) - Muggle Doctor
I strongly believe that we got the advantage here (Lucky us). I read PS/SS straight through OotP in two weeks. I didn't understand why everyone was so upset with Sirius' death in OotP. Now I know. When you invest so much time speculating about the characters, they become so much closer to the heart and affect you emotionally when you read about them in the next book. Likewise I think it can be just as painful, if not more, to shippers when they discover they were wrong. Just like those who continue to believe that Sirius is not dead, some shippers believe their ship may still have a chance even when the possibility is nil.
The ones who read all seven books straight through without deliberating for years in between are ultimately the losers; they won't get to experience the emotional highs and lows associated with Harry Potter and his friends' successes as we have.
p.s. If lucky them was meant sarcastically, I missed it (sorry).
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TheSaint - Mar 13, 2007 2:42 pm (#1673 of 1858)
xray - I've wondered about this too and the only reason I can think of, although I hate to say it, is that it may be because they are of foreign descent.
Ummm...yeah. I think I will stick with the pretty girl gets asked last theory.
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xray - Mar 13, 2007 2:45 pm (#1674 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
I like that one much better too. It's happier
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frogface - Mar 13, 2007 2:55 pm (#1675 of 1858)
Strangely enough, I don't think race is really an issue in the magical world. If it is then its never been brought up. I think the mainstream predujuces are that of which species you are (Centuars and Humans don't seem to get on) and how "pure" your blood line is.
The "too pretty" option makes more sense to me.
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juliebug - Mar 13, 2007 2:59 pm (#1676 of 1858)
I thought that maybe these were the sort of girls who received multiple invitations and put off making a decision as long as possible. Just to make sure nothing better came their way as soon as they committed to a date. Just a thought.
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TomProffitt - Mar 14, 2007 6:00 am (#1677 of 1858)
Bullheaded empiricist
I've wondered about this too and the only reason I can think of, although I hate to say it, is that it may be because they are of foreign descent. --- xray
We should probably consider age as well. The prettiest fourteen year old girls aren't going to attract near as much attention as the prettiest seventeen year old girls.
You've also got the whole nerve/fear issue with the boys of their age, too; I'd wager that for the fourteen year old boys (and most of the fifteens) that they've never asked a girl out before. That's quite intimidating enough with out asking "the prettiest girls" in your year.
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frogface - Mar 14, 2007 7:28 am (#1678 of 1858)
Plus lets not forget that Parvati is a bit annoying
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 14, 2007 7:50 am (#1679 of 1858)
Yes, Parvati's is a bit annoying, but so are a lot of girls who got dates. She's not any more annoying than is normal for a girl that age, and would boys get into all of those things she does that seem annoying to the readers anyway? Boys at that age sometimes go for looks first, and a lot of the other stuff goes over their heads. Example: Ron. I personally thought Lavender was more annoying, but maybe that's just me.
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Thom Matheson - Mar 14, 2007 8:29 am (#1680 of 1858)
Lavender is a pain in the kister. Also remember that boys tend to think that the pretty girls are so pretty they would never want to go out with them and they just fail to ask for fear of rejection.
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haymoni - Mar 14, 2007 8:29 am (#1681 of 1858)
I always found them BOTH annoying - from Book 1 even - except when Parvati stuck up for Neville.
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frogface - Mar 14, 2007 8:47 am (#1682 of 1858)
I was only being half-serious I don't find Parvati annoying - because she is a character in a book. So if she's ever irritating me I can just put the book down and come back later! But I think I would find both Parvati and Lavander annoying if I ever had to go to school with either of them. And their giggles would have put me off as a teenage boy looking for a date. The lead up to the Yule ball is one of my favourite moments in all the books - it reflects so accurately the sort of anguish teens put themselves through. "Why do they have move in packs?" is probably the best line ever! It's so true! I'm sure I remember thinking things almost like that at my age. And the way Harry notices that Hogwarts is actually full of girls - brilliant.
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haymoni - Mar 14, 2007 9:36 am (#1683 of 1858)
I'm sure Jo's experience as a teacher let her see all that first hand.
I think that part was captured perfectly.
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mona amon - Mar 14, 2007 7:27 pm (#1684 of 1858)
Maybe not many realised the Patil twins were good looking, until they were all dressed up for the ball.
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 14, 2007 8:35 pm (#1685 of 1858)
If that were the case no one would have asked Ron and Harry how they got dates with the prettiest girls in their year. Which is canon.
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xray - Mar 14, 2007 10:30 pm (#1686 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Canon according to Dean. No argument here
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Eponine - Mar 15, 2007 6:23 am (#1687 of 1858)
Canon according to Dean. - xray
True. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Not to say that Parvati and Padma weren't attractive girls, but not everyone might consider them to be the prettiest.
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Puck - Mar 15, 2007 9:24 am (#1688 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Especially with Fleur floating around with her Veela charms.
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 15, 2007 2:34 pm (#1689 of 1858)
I'm (again!) borrowing an idea being discussed on other boards. What effect would it have on Ron and Hermione's relationship if he ever found out she confunded McClaggan? Would he be pleased she helped him, or disappointed that she didn't think he could do it on his own?
I think it would hurt his pride at least a bit and they might have an argument over it. How likely does anyone think it is he'll NEVER find out?
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journeymom - Mar 15, 2007 6:07 pm (#1690 of 1858)
I think it would hurt his pride AND he'd be pleased she did that for him, and I hope he never finds out.
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Puck - Mar 15, 2007 7:36 pm (#1691 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Only two people know, and they will never tell...
...because they both know it would cause a fight.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 15, 2007 11:20 pm (#1692 of 1858)
Let it snow!
I think whether it would cause a fight depends on how long they're together before he finds out. If he finds out in the next year or two he'll probably blow up at her (think of how he reacted over her thinking he took the Felix potion). If he finds out years down the line after they've been married for several decades and have a house-full of kids, he'll probably threaten to bring it up every now just to make her mad but otherwise laugh about it. Either way, I seriously doubt it will hurt their relationship.
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mona amon - Mar 16, 2007 4:18 am (#1693 of 1858)
If that were the case no one would have asked Ron and Harry how they got dates with the prettiest girls in their year. Which is canon.(Die Zimtzicke)
True. I was under the (mistaken) impression that Dean made that remark after the Yule Ball.
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Puck - Mar 16, 2007 7:26 am (#1694 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Well, it could be only Dean thinks them the prettiest. Or perhaps Jo was using this to show how much Ron and Harry liked the other two girls. Even with beauties on their arms, they only had eyes for Cho and Hermione.
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haymoni - Mar 16, 2007 7:49 am (#1695 of 1858)
I remember thinking it strange that Dean hadn't asked Parvati.
I guess I always pair Dean & Seamus together and I pair Lavender & Parvati together.
If Seamus had asked Lavender, why didn't Dean ask Parvati?
Did Dean even go to the Ball???
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Muggle Doctor - Mar 16, 2007 8:29 am (#1696 of 1858)
A few points to those who answered my post.
Much of my fic is archived on line in places which might not be considered work or child safe. To be blunt, the sites feature slash fanfic and other such things as well as the tame stuff. Also, some of it is drabbles (100 words or less), and very much spur of the moment.
I think new readers ARE lucky being able to read the whole thing in one go. But that doesn't mean they have to race through them from start to finish; just that they will not have to wait the years we have had to wait. Each book will be fresh in their minds when they start the next. I think there is a difference between the first slow and careful read, and a re-read where it is harder to read every word, as it were, because your mind is already familiar with "what happens". In that sense, they have the advantage. They can read all seven books as new, fresh originals and maintain the suspense and anticipation all the way through, yet they are free to stop for a short time and digest/discuss what they have read before moving on.
Also, I have spent a lot of time off this board because it's been a long time between books and I had pretty much run out of things to say for a while. At least newbies will be able to get their theories out there and quickly have them supported or demolished ("Just finished book five, and I think Harry's going to hook up with Luna next... oh hello, whoops! Didn't see that coming!") without the agony of having to thrash ideas back and forth ad nauseam. It cuts both ways.
JM2K
PS I should probably start reading all six books again.
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totyle - Mar 20, 2007 1:38 am (#1697 of 1858)
There's a certain kind of ecstatic feeling in getting to read the books all at one go as I found out, as I came aboard only a year or so after OotP came out. It was like having a treasure trove at hand...indescribable..the joy of having 5 HP books to read at a go...some things words just can't express...
But then...I came across The Lexicon while whiling away my time till HBP came out and that's quite another feeling altogether....however pathetic though it sounds..just like Luna says..it was like having friends (real life friends just didnt get it)...enjoying the intense debates and being amazed at the way every single character gets dissected by the fans..
It really gives new meaning to reading and enjoying a book when all the time at the back of my mind I am recalling what forum posters have said about things like certain pairings and trying to look at it from their point of view...
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S.E. Jones - Mar 20, 2007 5:23 pm (#1698 of 1858)
Let it snow!
We need to find a different thread to discuss the pros and cons of waiting for the books or reading them in one go, etc. This thread is for 'shipping so let's get back on topic.
I'll try this question again: What do you think will happen between Ron and Hermione at Bill's wedding? It will be another chance for them to see each other in their formal clothes (Ron finally has a formal robe that doesn't look like it belong's in a Meatloaf video) and weddings can be romantic settings for the guests (think about it, you see everyone in their best clothes, you see these two people making this loving commitment, there's dancing, etc.)....
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 20, 2007 8:55 pm (#1699 of 1858)
I'm not sure, but I think the wedding has a big target painted all over it, and that there won't be much time for extra shipping there, due to some kind of attack or disaster. But that might just be me.
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totyle - Mar 20, 2007 9:49 pm (#1700 of 1858)
Traditionally, however fast paced, however action packed a story is there will be a moment of respite given to the characters..I believe Bill and Fleur's wedding day will be that moment in the last book. For eg in stories like Romancing The Stone, Bird on a Wire..(I cant think of any other eg at the moment!) there's a moment for the hero and heroine (in this case H/G, R/Hr, L/T..anyone I missed?!) to get together in a romantic setting despite having the crooks at their heels just a scene ago...
So Yes..IMO I think Bill and Fleur's wedding day will be the momentary 'feel good time' before the onset of the darkness. In HBP last chapter, last paragraph Harry felt his heart lift at the thought that there would still be one last golden day of peace left to enjoy with Ron and Hermione (funny he doesnt think Ginny..hmmm)..so I'm guessing that this will be given to us...if it isn't Im going to feel quite cheated...Im looking forward to that..I wouldnt want the last book to be all darkness without the golden moment to strengthen me up before the showdown.
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 1701 to 1750)
Elanor Sun May 15, 2011 10:12 am
Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 21, 2007 9:24 am (#1701 of 1858)
I have a question in the series thus far several of the adult characters were not or are not involved in relationships, or as the case of Lupin demonstrates are extremely reticent to enter into a relationship and there exists a certain symmetry in this regard:
Neither Dumbledore nor Voldemort are capable of engaging in a relationship involving romantic affections; although in the case of Dumbledore I would argue that he capable of a form and style of love that is in the words of the Man of La Mancha is to love pure and chaste from afar, while, Voldemort is incapable of feeling love at all.
Likewise neither Severus Snape, nor Sirius Black are emotionally mature enough to become involved in a relationship that involves a romantic component;
The case of Lupin is an intriguing one because I wonder whether he is capable of being in a relationship but, is just extremely reticent due to his condition prefer like Dumbledore toto love pure and chaste from afar;
When considering the case of Severus Snape and the majority of Marauders, I find it intriguing that only James Potter was able to successfully consummate a relationship that ended in marriage.
I did not include Peter Pettigrew in my thought process because, insofar as I am aware the topic of Peter Pettigrew being in a romantic relation has never been broached to J.K. Rowling
Is the fact that only James and Lily's relationship resulted in marriage symbolic?
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Thom Matheson - Mar 21, 2007 9:35 am (#1702 of 1858)
If this ship between H and R is to ever get off the ground, really, is if Hermione makes it happen. Leaving it up to Ron to make the first move could be like waiting to see Thestrals without seeing death first.
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journeymom - Mar 21, 2007 9:51 am (#1703 of 1858)
I would say, significant. The Harry Potter story seems to be all about the effect of parental relations on the main characters. Tom Riddle's mother was a mess who artificially manipulated her husband. Harry's parents were mature enough and normal, but were taken away from him tragically. We know almost nothing about Lupin's parents, but he's a decent enough guy, traitor theories aside. So I don't think we're supposed to question his parents.
I can't imagine Dumbledore as a child. Obviously he was, I know he didn't spring fully formed, white beard flowing, from under a cabbage leaf. He's got a brother. JKR created Dumbledore to be this exceptional, powerful, wise mentor for Harry. He loves him like a son. I think in OotP he says he never thought he'd have this kind of relationship and that's why he was reluctant to tell Harry about the prophecy. Dumbledore has love for all of humanity, but would probably drive any individual woman up a wall. "Greatest wizard ever known and he still can't remember to put the toilet seat down!"
We know least about Peter Pettigrew. Maybe we'll learn about his family in DH, but for whatever reason I haven't wondered about Pettigrew's background. Besides, ew! He's a creep!
I can hardly wait to learn more about Eileen Prince.
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xray - Mar 21, 2007 10:17 am (#1704 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Hi Nathan. I started to respond to your post but then paused; are you referring to the period between the Marauder's graduation from Hogwarts to just before the death of James and Lily? I am unfamiliar with the timeline prior to Harry's birth.
Otherwise I find the reasoning as to why we don't see other "adult" marriages rather obvious. Rowling has said that adult relationships would be boring to children which is why she doesn't include them. The exception being Remus and Tonks (and Bill/Fleur if you want to argue that point).
If this ship between H and R is to ever get off the ground, really, is if Hermione makes it happen. Leaving it up to Ron to make the first move could be like waiting to see Thestrals without seeing death first. - Thom Matheson
Hrm, as I think about it more, I'm starting to wonder. Ron did seem to start acting more mature about relationships after he broke up with Lavender. I have a feeling he's going to ask Hermione to be his date to Bill and Fleur's wedding. From that point on they'll be a couple.
Actually the R/Hr relationship is one that I predicted with precision prior to HBP. I said that Ron & Hermione would become a couple but they themselves wouldn't realize it. Here's hoping to be 2 for 2
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 21, 2007 12:04 pm (#1705 of 1858)
Xray, I did not include timelines in the consideration of my earlier post because, my question has more to do with the the diifferent forms of love and the symbolic meaning if any behind the fact that several prominent characters including Dumbledore, Sirius, and Severus are not involved in an relationship that consists of romantic commponent.
The argument that the children does not hold sway with me because, to my knowledge the series has nver been specifically stated by J.K. Rowling as targeting children, and as such the fact that the exclusion of such relationships on the basis it bores children seem to be abrogated in part. Also, there are elements of a relationship among Hagrid and Maxime that are dispersed throughout GoF and continued in OotP.
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xray - Mar 21, 2007 1:33 pm (#1706 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
What age group are you actually aiming for, Jo?
JKR: When I'm writing, I don't aim for any - any age group. I write these books entirely for myself. And in fact, before - before my British publisher Bloomsbury told me that they were going to market the books as for 9 year olds and above, I really had no idea. A vague idea, obviously. I mean, I was aware they weren't for 3 year olds, and I knew that probably 19 year olds would be wanting to read other stuff, although I've met quite a few 19 year olds since, so that's - that's a really nice thing. The optimum age, I'd definitely say is 9+ for these books.
Why do you think young children are so drawn to these books?
JKR: That's such a, such a very hard question to answer, because... without being disingenuous. I wrote what I wanted to write. And I wrote the sort of thing that I knew I'd like to read, I'd like to read *now* as an adult, and I knew that I would have liked to have read it when I was 11. - Diane Rehm Show, 1999
Duck__69 asks: Are you going to get more mature themes as your books age or are you going to keep it geared toward younger kids
jkrowling_bn: I think an eight or nine year old will be able to read all seven books
jkrowling_bn: that's my intention
jkrowling_bn: however, Harry is growing up, so obviously he will face certain issues an eight year old won't
jkrowling_bn: I don't think, however, that that will be uninteresting for an eight year old - Barnes & Noble chat, 20 Oct 2000
I'm looking for the other quote where she says she didn't want to write about adult's love lives. I'll post it when I find it.
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TomProffitt - Mar 21, 2007 4:15 pm (#1707 of 1858)
Bullheaded empiricist
I'm looking for the other quote where she says she didn't want to write about adult's love lives. -- xray
I remember the quote, but have no idea how to find it. It was along the lines of the characters (HRH) not being interested in that kind of thing. Now that they are 17 years old I imagine they will be more inclined to notice adult relationships than they would have when they were eleven or twelve.
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 21, 2007 4:24 pm (#1708 of 1858)
But she has given MANY mixed messages about that. She told Movie Magic magazine (which I have sitting right in front of me) in May, 2004:
What I find interesting is that people call me a children's writer. When I started writing I had never thought of writing for children.
So I don't know what she really means by a children's book anymore. I haven't seen the quote about adult ships. I'd like to, if anyone finds the link.
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Puck - Mar 21, 2007 4:35 pm (#1709 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Sarah, I believe Ron will attempt to dance with Hermione at the wedding, and she will do her best not to grimace when he steps on her toes. If Harry avoids Ginny by spending all his time as a third wheel that could have an effect on the level of romance.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 21, 2007 5:23 pm (#1710 of 1858)
Let it snow!
I've also seen quotes from Jo that go back and forth between her being a children's author and her not writing for children. I don't think she knows herself, to be honest. Either way, I'm just glad that we can all enjoy the books.
As for adult relationships, I think she's shown us a good deal of Molly and Arthur's relationship and they definitely qualify as adults (most of the time ). We also get to see some of Vernon and Pet's relationship as they work together or fight over Harry and Dudley. It is true, though, that most adult relationships are happening "off-screen" with the main characters catching only glimpses (like James/Lily, Bill/Fleur, Remus/Tonks, Hagrid/Maxim).
Puck, that would be such a cute scene. Do you think Hermione will finally wear that perfume Ron gave her for Christmas in OP?
Also, does anyone think it possible that Victor could show up during the wedding? He was a triwizard champ along side Fleur so who knows, he may get invited.
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Denise P. - Mar 21, 2007 5:25 pm (#1711 of 1858)
Ravenclaw Pony
Wow, if Victor showed up, it could be very interesting to Ron and Hermione. Ron doesn't seem to handle competition well (and he lacks a lot of self confidence)
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Puck - Mar 21, 2007 7:59 pm (#1712 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Ron? Jealous and unconfident? Never!
If Hermione did wear the perfume would Ron notice if she didn't tell him? (I mean would he know it was the stuff he gave her? It would be 18 months after the purchase, so perhaps she could refill the bottle with something more to her liking and tell him he bought it for her. (Not that I would ever do such a thing. )
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S.E. Jones - Mar 21, 2007 10:25 pm (#1713 of 1858)
Let it snow!
You know, I remember a time when we debated about whether or not the perfume was a love potion or something similar based on Hermione saying it had a very unusual scent (which is quite likely her nice way of saying "it stinks"). Considering the mention and use of love potions in HBP, I guess that old idea wouldn't be entirely out of the question (although I think it unlikely). I'm not saying that Ron would do such a thing on purpose, but maybe the guy he bought it from took one look at him and decided he needed all the help he could get....
I think Krum showing up to the wedding would be a great catalyst to Ron finally making the first move. Krum's presence could be the best thing that could happen to their relationship.
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Puck - Mar 22, 2007 5:41 am (#1714 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Ron sees Krum walk in, stalks up to Hermione, grabs her and plants one on her. I like it!
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haymoni - Mar 22, 2007 5:50 am (#1715 of 1858)
Maybe the perfume is the thing that Hermione smelled in Slughorn's class.
I kept thinking it was a smell associated with Ron, but maybe it was the smell of the perfume he gave her.
Mmmm...
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frogface - Mar 22, 2007 5:51 am (#1716 of 1858)
I also think that whatever she smelt - perfume or otherwise - reminded her of Ron. Hence the blushing.
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 22, 2007 9:32 am (#1717 of 1858)
I read a great fic once where Lavender and Parvati threw that perfume out behind Hemrione's back because it smelt like a "dead niffler" and Hermione was glad when she found out, becuase she didn't have the courage to do it herself.
Funny stuff...but alas, I think the perfume will not come up again. Viktor is another story. I hope he does. He might not only be a catalyst for R/Hr, he might have some good information for Harry from Durmstrang about horcruxes.
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Puck - Mar 22, 2007 10:56 am (#1718 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Teehee, it smells like a dead niffler.
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Jenniffler - Mar 22, 2007 1:34 pm (#1719 of 1858)
Searching for gold in the HP world. Oh, here it is!
In defense of all the Niffler family: Hey! We're very useful.
Seriously, I think we will forever have our own ideas about what scent attracts Hermione. Definitely not dead nifflers. Perish the thought.(Even though it IS really funny, Die Zimzicke!)
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Denise P. - Mar 22, 2007 1:59 pm (#1720 of 1858)
Ravenclaw Pony
I am sure it smelled like dusty books (And seriously, I found a website that sells candles with Puppy Breath scent) Dead Niffler....the smell of romance in the spring, when nifflers fight to the death over their chosen mate? Hee...
I think Ron more than likely picked a strong smelling perfume because he thought that is what girls wear/like. This could be partially because when new wearers use a perfume, they tend to put on too much, hence a quite strong smell. I would even venture a guess that perhaps it is something Molly either wears occasionally or has in the past. I know that growing up, I only knew the perfumes my mother wore (Charlie!) and my grandmother (White Shoulders) so at a similar age, I would have been likely to choose one of those as a gift to someone, had I been male.
I would like to see this ship finally sail, with or without strong perfume.
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Luna Logic - Mar 22, 2007 2:26 pm (#1721 of 1858)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Edited by Mar 22, 2007 1:27 pm
Denise: I would like to see this ship finally sail, with or without strong perfume. Re reading the first pages of chapter 14, HBP, when they are extracting a Snargaluff's pod in Herbology, Ron says:
"You know, I don't think I'll be having any of these in my garden when I've got my own place.." . So he is thinking of a future, with a house and garden... and not alone, I suppose.
Ron, associated with a garden's "natural" perfume ? It would be accorded to the "freshly mown grass" that Hermione smelled in Amortentia potion (chapter 9, p.176 Bloomsbury).
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Puck - Mar 22, 2007 4:35 pm (#1722 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
It could be as simple as she smelled the soap he uses, etc....
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Thom Matheson - Mar 22, 2007 8:32 pm (#1723 of 1858)
Boy Denise, right you are about the guy thing to do. In fact I still swoon over the smell of Charlie. Miss that stuff.
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juliebug - Mar 22, 2007 8:44 pm (#1724 of 1858)
Nope, won't do it. I want to, but I won't. Thom that set up was classic. You're killin' me!
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Thom Matheson - Mar 22, 2007 8:47 pm (#1725 of 1858)
I keep telling you guys, "It's Magic".
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haymoni - Mar 23, 2007 6:10 am (#1726 of 1858)
Ok - thanks - now I've got the "Charlie" song in my head. So now I have to torture you all with the Enjoli song: "I can bring home the bacon...Fry it up in a pan..."
It seems like the 3rd smell is something obviously connected with the person you love (at the moment, anyway), so Hermione had to stop herself before she blurted out, "...and that awful perfume that Ron gave to me!"
That's my guess!
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Puck - Mar 23, 2007 11:42 am (#1727 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
LOL, Julie. I thinking we both have the same thought.
For some reason I have an urge to go read Oedipus.
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Muggle Doctor - Mar 30, 2007 6:44 pm (#1728 of 1858)
Poor Lupin; of all the Marauders, he would possibly be the best husband for a woman (we don't yet know how James changed in such a way that Lily would like him), but he has kept himself chaste all these years because he doesn't want to inflict his lycanthropy on someone. Maybe when the war is over he should just bite Tonks, and the problem will no longer exist. They could howl at the moon together, and she would of course be safe around him, being a werewolf herself...
(I wonder what happens when two werewolves marry and mate... and whether the state they are in at the time bears any relationship to how the children turn out.)
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Laura W - Mar 31, 2007 12:28 am (#1729 of 1858)
Hi Muggle Doctor .
Source: Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them by Newt Scamander
"Werewolf:
" ... Humans turn into werewolves only when bitten. There is no known cure, though recent developments in potion-making have to a great extent alleviated the worst symptoms. Once a month, at the full moon, the otherwise sane and normal wizard or Muggle afflicted transforms into a murderous beast. ..."
"(footnote) "This classification refers, of course, to the werewolf in its transformed state. When there is no full moon, the werewolf is as harmless as any other human."
When Newt Scamander writes, "Once a month, at the full moon, the otherwise sane and normal wizard or Muggle afflicted transforms ...", I imagine the word "normal" to mean that he or she can have children. I honestly don't know though. Or about the offspring having wolfish qualities. Again, Fantastic Beasts tells us "Humans turn into werewolves only when bitten." Nothing about it (ie - the disease) being passed on to the infected adult's children who have not actually been bitten. Don't believe there is anything in canon about it though. Would be interesting to know.
And Remus absolutely HATES his disease! There is plenty of canon to show this. Because of it, he has to experience terrible pain every month of his life - in PoA, he says that it is very painful to transform; because of it he is shunned by the more prejudiced in the WW - in OoP he tells Harry that he is not exactly invited to dinner by other wizards -; because of it he cannot get paid work and feel the sense of pride and accomplishment that such employment would afford him, not to mention the Galleons - we all know about the anti-werewolf legislation Umbridge brought in, and have heard often about how shabby and patched Lupin's robes are. He accepts his chronic affliction because he has to but he would not wish it on his worst enemy, let alone on a funny, kind, delightful, talented young woman who loves him.
Lupin has already told - and told and told, apparently - Nymphadora that there will be challenges if they become serious. I think she will be prepared for and up to whatever comes their way.
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Muggle Doctor - Mar 31, 2007 8:42 am (#1730 of 1858)
I was only being flippant; I know he'd never do it. But I am reminded of the F.F.Coppola version of "Dracula", and Mina Harker's desire to drink Dracula's blood and become vampir, while Dracula himself tries to dissuade her.
It makes Fenrir's targeting of children even more horrific - imagine a small child having to go through that every full moon. It's a wonder Lupin's still sane.
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journeymom - Mar 31, 2007 10:46 am (#1731 of 1858)
"You'd know all about the madness within, wouldn't you, Remus."
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Puck - Apr 1, 2007 2:43 pm (#1732 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
The Maurauders do seem a bit cursed, don't they? Hmmmm.....
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gankomon - May 10, 2007 5:12 pm (#1733 of 1858)
I realize this thread has moved on a bit, but had to add my two cents from an earlier post.
"So far, in the books, what scene between a couple has been your favorite?" Well.....
"Mollywobbles" was frankly hilarious- it summed up Molly's and Arthur's relationship perfectly. The library scene in Book Five with Harry and Ginny was also a good one- anyone else notice how only Ginny could get him to admit what the real issue was? I'm not much of shipper (spent far too much time sailing through typhoons for that), but have been sort of expecting Harry and Ginny to happen since Book Two, due to numerous hints in the books, and yes- Harry did notice Ginny. In fact for someone who he didn't really know, there are many occasions where he notices her when he easily could have missed her. But that is another post.
Others include the post-Ball argument between Ron and Hermione in Book Four. There is also the hilarious scene where Ron and Lavender first get together, and the Lupin-Tonks scene where we finally find out that Tonks loves Lupin (and it appears to be mutual), both in Book Six.
And yes, Puck, the Marauders have not had good luck so far. Two dead, one cursed and one a traitor. But that is different topic. So I shall exit the Shipping Department without launching any additional vessels into these roiled waters.
regards,
gankomon
-----------------
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.
-Number 6
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Die Zimtzicke - May 11, 2007 6:31 am (#1734 of 1858)
I didn't think Ginny got Harry to admit the real issue at all in the library. He was upset about what he had seen his father do. He didn't confide in Ginny at all. He just said that he was did not want to talk to Cho, but to Sirius.
If that scene was truly important, I really think JO would have gotten the film people to handle it differently than they apparently have, from what I've heard talking to people who went to the preview. But that's all I can say about that here.
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Eponine - May 11, 2007 8:06 am (#1735 of 1858)
You know, the chocolate in the library scene has been debated so much, and nothing is going to change some people's minds over it.
Whether Harry told Ginny the real issue or not, he still told her something that he hadn't told anyone else. It might not be a soul-baring confidence, but it was a confidence nonetheless. I don't see why he had to share his entire problem with her for it to be a nice moment for him to actually open up to someone (even just a little) when he was having such a difficult year.
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Steve Newton - May 11, 2007 8:10 am (#1736 of 1858)
Librarian
They shared chocolate. How can there be a more binding tie?
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Eponine - May 11, 2007 9:38 am (#1737 of 1858)
Chocolate is the food of love, after all. =)
Now I want chocolate!
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xray - May 11, 2007 10:20 am (#1738 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
It was also their first one on one conversation ever. Nobody else but them.
And don't forget, Madam Pince screamed "Chocolate in the library!" (that's a hint). It wasn't Food nor was it Eating; it was specifically Chocoloate!
Yay Chocolate! The food of lurve.
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Sunny Baudelaire - May 11, 2007 1:01 pm (#1739 of 1858)
If that scene was truly important, I really think JO would have gotten the film people to handle it differently than they apparently have, from what I've heard talking to people who went to the preview. But that's all I can say about that here.
Jo often foreshadows things 1 book in advance, which the film makers rarely (if ever) do. The films only deal with what was important to Harry in the book they are filming.
Jo actually foreshadows Harry's crush on Cho in Prisoner of Azkaban, when he notices she's pretty and has a swoop in his stomach. The film makers didn't even cast a Cho for POA. The crush wasn't important to the plot until the 4th film, so Warner Brothers didn't bother with it until then.
Every interaction between Harry and Ginny in Order of the Phoenix was setting up Ginny as the object of Harry's affection in the next book. But once again, Warner Brothers is not going to foreshadow a realationship that won't appear on screen for 18 months.
But, alas, if you want to think that the movies are more canon than the books and interviews, then that's your choice.
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Die Zimtzicke - May 12, 2007 6:47 pm (#1740 of 1858)
I don't think films are more canon than books, but I think they're at least equal to interviews, because I do believe, and always have, that Jo has some control over what goes into those films. And I have always believed that if something is important, it should be clear in the books. I don't want to have to look up some interview to find out what Jo should have said in the books adn did not.
As for Cho, how do you film someone's stomach swooping anyway? LOL!
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frogface - May 13, 2007 4:47 am (#1741 of 1858)
I don't take too much notice of what goes into the films even if Jo does has some say about what does and doesn't go in. After all, the PoA movie completely skipped the details on how the Marauder's became animagi and that they created the Marauder's map or how Sirius, and Crouch in GoF escaped Azkaban or why Harry's Patronus was a Stag. But those are all pretty important plot elements in my opinion. So the fact that they seem to have left the Harry/Ginny romance until the HBP movie doesn't surpise me in the least. After all its only very subtly hinted at in OotP, and not really at all in the books preceding that.
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xray - May 13, 2007 7:00 am (#1742 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
or why Harry's Patronus was a Stag. - frogface
Harry's patronus was a stag? I thought it was some giant funnel looking wave thing. Oh and don't forget, dementors can fly. Even though we're told specifically that they don't fly, they glide, in OotP.
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frogface - May 13, 2007 8:48 am (#1743 of 1858)
A stag patronus does make an appearance in PoA - after the great bit wave thingy - but its not explained why it takes the form of a stag. I'm not entirely sure if its even mentioned that Patronuses take the form of animals in the film.
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Sunny Baudelaire - May 14, 2007 4:02 pm (#1744 of 1858)
As for Cho, how do you film someone's stomach swooping anyway?
They did an excellent job of that in the scene on the Hogwarts Express when Cho comes up and orders her 2 pumpkin pasties. VERY OBVIOUSLY a stomach swooping moment. It just came one year later for film!Harry than book!Harry.
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Eponine - May 29, 2007 6:56 am (#1745 of 1858)
Scholastic has up a new poll question about who's going to end up with whom. Personally, I'm quite surprised they put Harry and Hermione as an option. I also wish they'd let you vote for more than one option.
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xray - May 29, 2007 8:23 am (#1746 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Eponine, I saw that. I am disappointed they put up several ships that aren't mutually exclusive with only one vote. It is interesting that they completely excluded Harry/Luna. Hysterical even!
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Sunny Baudelaire - May 29, 2007 8:53 am (#1747 of 1858)
Clearly, Scholastic never checked with Warner Brothers. Someone forgot to tell them that they need to ignore the books because it's the movies that contain the real shipping hints.
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Die Zimtzicke - May 29, 2007 7:34 pm (#1748 of 1858)
Sunny must agree now that there are still shipping hints for H/Hr! How amusing! {;-)
But seriously, that poll means about as much as the one about who was going to live and who was going to die. If I remember corectly, not even Voldemort got a lot of dying votes. It's all silliness to me. The H/Hr option is proof of that, in my personal opinion. Either they're out of touch, or they're pulling our legs.
Although the media release that went with it was VERY Interesting.
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xray - May 30, 2007 10:13 am (#1749 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Although the media release that went with it was VERY Interesting. - Die Zimtzicke
Yes indeed it was, especially considering the quote they used to support it.
Throughout the past six Harry Potter books, there has been much discussion about relationships: Would Harry and Hermione get together? Ron and Hermione? How about Harry and Luna Lovegood? What other romantic possibilities exist? At the end of Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, Harry says goodbye to his girlfriend:
“I can’t be involved with you anymore. We’ve got to stop seeing each other. We can’t be together.”
She said, with an oddly twisted smile, “It’s for some stupid, noble reason, isn’t it?”
“It’s been like . . . like something out of someone else’s life, these last few weeks with you,” said Harry. “But I can’t . . . we can’t . . . I’ve got things to do alone now.”
. . . "I knew this would happen in the end. I knew you wouldn’t be happy unless you were hunting Voldemort. Maybe that’s why I like you so much.”
Harry could not bear to hear these things, nor did he think his resolution would hold if he remained sitting beside her. Ron, he saw, was now holding Hermione and stroking her hair while she sobbed into his shoulder, tears dripping from the end of his own long nose.
The most amusing part is how they actually mention Harry and Luna Lovegood yet she's completely excluded from the poll as a non-entity. LOLZ!
The poll questions are:
Harry and Ginny
Ron and Hermione
Harry and Hermione
Remus and Tonks
The disappointing thing about the poll is the inclusion of non mutually exclusive pairings. I want to vote for Ron/Hermione, Harry/Ginny, AND Remus/Tonks but I can't.
Nevertheless it doesn't matter. The main pairings have already been verified by Jo. It's Harry and Ginny AND Ron and Hermione.
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Rosie Lu - May 30, 2007 12:28 pm (#1750 of 1858)
The main pairings have already been verified by Jo. It's Harry and Ginny AND Ron and Hermione.
And Remus and Tonks! ;-)
This poll is definitely a nod to the shippers in fandom. I find it very amusing.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I have a question in the series thus far several of the adult characters were not or are not involved in relationships, or as the case of Lupin demonstrates are extremely reticent to enter into a relationship and there exists a certain symmetry in this regard:
Neither Dumbledore nor Voldemort are capable of engaging in a relationship involving romantic affections; although in the case of Dumbledore I would argue that he capable of a form and style of love that is in the words of the Man of La Mancha is to love pure and chaste from afar, while, Voldemort is incapable of feeling love at all.
Likewise neither Severus Snape, nor Sirius Black are emotionally mature enough to become involved in a relationship that involves a romantic component;
The case of Lupin is an intriguing one because I wonder whether he is capable of being in a relationship but, is just extremely reticent due to his condition prefer like Dumbledore toto love pure and chaste from afar;
When considering the case of Severus Snape and the majority of Marauders, I find it intriguing that only James Potter was able to successfully consummate a relationship that ended in marriage.
I did not include Peter Pettigrew in my thought process because, insofar as I am aware the topic of Peter Pettigrew being in a romantic relation has never been broached to J.K. Rowling
Is the fact that only James and Lily's relationship resulted in marriage symbolic?
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Thom Matheson - Mar 21, 2007 9:35 am (#1702 of 1858)
If this ship between H and R is to ever get off the ground, really, is if Hermione makes it happen. Leaving it up to Ron to make the first move could be like waiting to see Thestrals without seeing death first.
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journeymom - Mar 21, 2007 9:51 am (#1703 of 1858)
I would say, significant. The Harry Potter story seems to be all about the effect of parental relations on the main characters. Tom Riddle's mother was a mess who artificially manipulated her husband. Harry's parents were mature enough and normal, but were taken away from him tragically. We know almost nothing about Lupin's parents, but he's a decent enough guy, traitor theories aside. So I don't think we're supposed to question his parents.
I can't imagine Dumbledore as a child. Obviously he was, I know he didn't spring fully formed, white beard flowing, from under a cabbage leaf. He's got a brother. JKR created Dumbledore to be this exceptional, powerful, wise mentor for Harry. He loves him like a son. I think in OotP he says he never thought he'd have this kind of relationship and that's why he was reluctant to tell Harry about the prophecy. Dumbledore has love for all of humanity, but would probably drive any individual woman up a wall. "Greatest wizard ever known and he still can't remember to put the toilet seat down!"
We know least about Peter Pettigrew. Maybe we'll learn about his family in DH, but for whatever reason I haven't wondered about Pettigrew's background. Besides, ew! He's a creep!
I can hardly wait to learn more about Eileen Prince.
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xray - Mar 21, 2007 10:17 am (#1704 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Hi Nathan. I started to respond to your post but then paused; are you referring to the period between the Marauder's graduation from Hogwarts to just before the death of James and Lily? I am unfamiliar with the timeline prior to Harry's birth.
Otherwise I find the reasoning as to why we don't see other "adult" marriages rather obvious. Rowling has said that adult relationships would be boring to children which is why she doesn't include them. The exception being Remus and Tonks (and Bill/Fleur if you want to argue that point).
If this ship between H and R is to ever get off the ground, really, is if Hermione makes it happen. Leaving it up to Ron to make the first move could be like waiting to see Thestrals without seeing death first. - Thom Matheson
Hrm, as I think about it more, I'm starting to wonder. Ron did seem to start acting more mature about relationships after he broke up with Lavender. I have a feeling he's going to ask Hermione to be his date to Bill and Fleur's wedding. From that point on they'll be a couple.
Actually the R/Hr relationship is one that I predicted with precision prior to HBP. I said that Ron & Hermione would become a couple but they themselves wouldn't realize it. Here's hoping to be 2 for 2
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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 21, 2007 12:04 pm (#1705 of 1858)
Xray, I did not include timelines in the consideration of my earlier post because, my question has more to do with the the diifferent forms of love and the symbolic meaning if any behind the fact that several prominent characters including Dumbledore, Sirius, and Severus are not involved in an relationship that consists of romantic commponent.
The argument that the children does not hold sway with me because, to my knowledge the series has nver been specifically stated by J.K. Rowling as targeting children, and as such the fact that the exclusion of such relationships on the basis it bores children seem to be abrogated in part. Also, there are elements of a relationship among Hagrid and Maxime that are dispersed throughout GoF and continued in OotP.
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xray - Mar 21, 2007 1:33 pm (#1706 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
What age group are you actually aiming for, Jo?
JKR: When I'm writing, I don't aim for any - any age group. I write these books entirely for myself. And in fact, before - before my British publisher Bloomsbury told me that they were going to market the books as for 9 year olds and above, I really had no idea. A vague idea, obviously. I mean, I was aware they weren't for 3 year olds, and I knew that probably 19 year olds would be wanting to read other stuff, although I've met quite a few 19 year olds since, so that's - that's a really nice thing. The optimum age, I'd definitely say is 9+ for these books.
Why do you think young children are so drawn to these books?
JKR: That's such a, such a very hard question to answer, because... without being disingenuous. I wrote what I wanted to write. And I wrote the sort of thing that I knew I'd like to read, I'd like to read *now* as an adult, and I knew that I would have liked to have read it when I was 11. - Diane Rehm Show, 1999
Duck__69 asks: Are you going to get more mature themes as your books age or are you going to keep it geared toward younger kids
jkrowling_bn: I think an eight or nine year old will be able to read all seven books
jkrowling_bn: that's my intention
jkrowling_bn: however, Harry is growing up, so obviously he will face certain issues an eight year old won't
jkrowling_bn: I don't think, however, that that will be uninteresting for an eight year old - Barnes & Noble chat, 20 Oct 2000
I'm looking for the other quote where she says she didn't want to write about adult's love lives. I'll post it when I find it.
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TomProffitt - Mar 21, 2007 4:15 pm (#1707 of 1858)
Bullheaded empiricist
I'm looking for the other quote where she says she didn't want to write about adult's love lives. -- xray
I remember the quote, but have no idea how to find it. It was along the lines of the characters (HRH) not being interested in that kind of thing. Now that they are 17 years old I imagine they will be more inclined to notice adult relationships than they would have when they were eleven or twelve.
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 21, 2007 4:24 pm (#1708 of 1858)
But she has given MANY mixed messages about that. She told Movie Magic magazine (which I have sitting right in front of me) in May, 2004:
What I find interesting is that people call me a children's writer. When I started writing I had never thought of writing for children.
So I don't know what she really means by a children's book anymore. I haven't seen the quote about adult ships. I'd like to, if anyone finds the link.
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Puck - Mar 21, 2007 4:35 pm (#1709 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Sarah, I believe Ron will attempt to dance with Hermione at the wedding, and she will do her best not to grimace when he steps on her toes. If Harry avoids Ginny by spending all his time as a third wheel that could have an effect on the level of romance.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 21, 2007 5:23 pm (#1710 of 1858)
Let it snow!
I've also seen quotes from Jo that go back and forth between her being a children's author and her not writing for children. I don't think she knows herself, to be honest. Either way, I'm just glad that we can all enjoy the books.
As for adult relationships, I think she's shown us a good deal of Molly and Arthur's relationship and they definitely qualify as adults (most of the time ). We also get to see some of Vernon and Pet's relationship as they work together or fight over Harry and Dudley. It is true, though, that most adult relationships are happening "off-screen" with the main characters catching only glimpses (like James/Lily, Bill/Fleur, Remus/Tonks, Hagrid/Maxim).
Puck, that would be such a cute scene. Do you think Hermione will finally wear that perfume Ron gave her for Christmas in OP?
Also, does anyone think it possible that Victor could show up during the wedding? He was a triwizard champ along side Fleur so who knows, he may get invited.
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Denise P. - Mar 21, 2007 5:25 pm (#1711 of 1858)
Ravenclaw Pony
Wow, if Victor showed up, it could be very interesting to Ron and Hermione. Ron doesn't seem to handle competition well (and he lacks a lot of self confidence)
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Puck - Mar 21, 2007 7:59 pm (#1712 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Ron? Jealous and unconfident? Never!
If Hermione did wear the perfume would Ron notice if she didn't tell him? (I mean would he know it was the stuff he gave her? It would be 18 months after the purchase, so perhaps she could refill the bottle with something more to her liking and tell him he bought it for her. (Not that I would ever do such a thing. )
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S.E. Jones - Mar 21, 2007 10:25 pm (#1713 of 1858)
Let it snow!
You know, I remember a time when we debated about whether or not the perfume was a love potion or something similar based on Hermione saying it had a very unusual scent (which is quite likely her nice way of saying "it stinks"). Considering the mention and use of love potions in HBP, I guess that old idea wouldn't be entirely out of the question (although I think it unlikely). I'm not saying that Ron would do such a thing on purpose, but maybe the guy he bought it from took one look at him and decided he needed all the help he could get....
I think Krum showing up to the wedding would be a great catalyst to Ron finally making the first move. Krum's presence could be the best thing that could happen to their relationship.
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Puck - Mar 22, 2007 5:41 am (#1714 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Ron sees Krum walk in, stalks up to Hermione, grabs her and plants one on her. I like it!
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haymoni - Mar 22, 2007 5:50 am (#1715 of 1858)
Maybe the perfume is the thing that Hermione smelled in Slughorn's class.
I kept thinking it was a smell associated with Ron, but maybe it was the smell of the perfume he gave her.
Mmmm...
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frogface - Mar 22, 2007 5:51 am (#1716 of 1858)
I also think that whatever she smelt - perfume or otherwise - reminded her of Ron. Hence the blushing.
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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 22, 2007 9:32 am (#1717 of 1858)
I read a great fic once where Lavender and Parvati threw that perfume out behind Hemrione's back because it smelt like a "dead niffler" and Hermione was glad when she found out, becuase she didn't have the courage to do it herself.
Funny stuff...but alas, I think the perfume will not come up again. Viktor is another story. I hope he does. He might not only be a catalyst for R/Hr, he might have some good information for Harry from Durmstrang about horcruxes.
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Puck - Mar 22, 2007 10:56 am (#1718 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Teehee, it smells like a dead niffler.
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Jenniffler - Mar 22, 2007 1:34 pm (#1719 of 1858)
Searching for gold in the HP world. Oh, here it is!
In defense of all the Niffler family: Hey! We're very useful.
Seriously, I think we will forever have our own ideas about what scent attracts Hermione. Definitely not dead nifflers. Perish the thought.(Even though it IS really funny, Die Zimzicke!)
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Denise P. - Mar 22, 2007 1:59 pm (#1720 of 1858)
Ravenclaw Pony
I am sure it smelled like dusty books (And seriously, I found a website that sells candles with Puppy Breath scent) Dead Niffler....the smell of romance in the spring, when nifflers fight to the death over their chosen mate? Hee...
I think Ron more than likely picked a strong smelling perfume because he thought that is what girls wear/like. This could be partially because when new wearers use a perfume, they tend to put on too much, hence a quite strong smell. I would even venture a guess that perhaps it is something Molly either wears occasionally or has in the past. I know that growing up, I only knew the perfumes my mother wore (Charlie!) and my grandmother (White Shoulders) so at a similar age, I would have been likely to choose one of those as a gift to someone, had I been male.
I would like to see this ship finally sail, with or without strong perfume.
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Luna Logic - Mar 22, 2007 2:26 pm (#1721 of 1858)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Edited by Mar 22, 2007 1:27 pm
Denise: I would like to see this ship finally sail, with or without strong perfume. Re reading the first pages of chapter 14, HBP, when they are extracting a Snargaluff's pod in Herbology, Ron says:
"You know, I don't think I'll be having any of these in my garden when I've got my own place.." . So he is thinking of a future, with a house and garden... and not alone, I suppose.
Ron, associated with a garden's "natural" perfume ? It would be accorded to the "freshly mown grass" that Hermione smelled in Amortentia potion (chapter 9, p.176 Bloomsbury).
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Puck - Mar 22, 2007 4:35 pm (#1722 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
It could be as simple as she smelled the soap he uses, etc....
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Thom Matheson - Mar 22, 2007 8:32 pm (#1723 of 1858)
Boy Denise, right you are about the guy thing to do. In fact I still swoon over the smell of Charlie. Miss that stuff.
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juliebug - Mar 22, 2007 8:44 pm (#1724 of 1858)
Nope, won't do it. I want to, but I won't. Thom that set up was classic. You're killin' me!
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Thom Matheson - Mar 22, 2007 8:47 pm (#1725 of 1858)
I keep telling you guys, "It's Magic".
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haymoni - Mar 23, 2007 6:10 am (#1726 of 1858)
Ok - thanks - now I've got the "Charlie" song in my head. So now I have to torture you all with the Enjoli song: "I can bring home the bacon...Fry it up in a pan..."
It seems like the 3rd smell is something obviously connected with the person you love (at the moment, anyway), so Hermione had to stop herself before she blurted out, "...and that awful perfume that Ron gave to me!"
That's my guess!
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Puck - Mar 23, 2007 11:42 am (#1727 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
LOL, Julie. I thinking we both have the same thought.
For some reason I have an urge to go read Oedipus.
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Muggle Doctor - Mar 30, 2007 6:44 pm (#1728 of 1858)
Poor Lupin; of all the Marauders, he would possibly be the best husband for a woman (we don't yet know how James changed in such a way that Lily would like him), but he has kept himself chaste all these years because he doesn't want to inflict his lycanthropy on someone. Maybe when the war is over he should just bite Tonks, and the problem will no longer exist. They could howl at the moon together, and she would of course be safe around him, being a werewolf herself...
(I wonder what happens when two werewolves marry and mate... and whether the state they are in at the time bears any relationship to how the children turn out.)
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Laura W - Mar 31, 2007 12:28 am (#1729 of 1858)
Hi Muggle Doctor .
Source: Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them by Newt Scamander
"Werewolf:
" ... Humans turn into werewolves only when bitten. There is no known cure, though recent developments in potion-making have to a great extent alleviated the worst symptoms. Once a month, at the full moon, the otherwise sane and normal wizard or Muggle afflicted transforms into a murderous beast. ..."
"(footnote) "This classification refers, of course, to the werewolf in its transformed state. When there is no full moon, the werewolf is as harmless as any other human."
When Newt Scamander writes, "Once a month, at the full moon, the otherwise sane and normal wizard or Muggle afflicted transforms ...", I imagine the word "normal" to mean that he or she can have children. I honestly don't know though. Or about the offspring having wolfish qualities. Again, Fantastic Beasts tells us "Humans turn into werewolves only when bitten." Nothing about it (ie - the disease) being passed on to the infected adult's children who have not actually been bitten. Don't believe there is anything in canon about it though. Would be interesting to know.
And Remus absolutely HATES his disease! There is plenty of canon to show this. Because of it, he has to experience terrible pain every month of his life - in PoA, he says that it is very painful to transform; because of it he is shunned by the more prejudiced in the WW - in OoP he tells Harry that he is not exactly invited to dinner by other wizards -; because of it he cannot get paid work and feel the sense of pride and accomplishment that such employment would afford him, not to mention the Galleons - we all know about the anti-werewolf legislation Umbridge brought in, and have heard often about how shabby and patched Lupin's robes are. He accepts his chronic affliction because he has to but he would not wish it on his worst enemy, let alone on a funny, kind, delightful, talented young woman who loves him.
Lupin has already told - and told and told, apparently - Nymphadora that there will be challenges if they become serious. I think she will be prepared for and up to whatever comes their way.
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Muggle Doctor - Mar 31, 2007 8:42 am (#1730 of 1858)
I was only being flippant; I know he'd never do it. But I am reminded of the F.F.Coppola version of "Dracula", and Mina Harker's desire to drink Dracula's blood and become vampir, while Dracula himself tries to dissuade her.
It makes Fenrir's targeting of children even more horrific - imagine a small child having to go through that every full moon. It's a wonder Lupin's still sane.
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journeymom - Mar 31, 2007 10:46 am (#1731 of 1858)
"You'd know all about the madness within, wouldn't you, Remus."
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Puck - Apr 1, 2007 2:43 pm (#1732 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
The Maurauders do seem a bit cursed, don't they? Hmmmm.....
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gankomon - May 10, 2007 5:12 pm (#1733 of 1858)
I realize this thread has moved on a bit, but had to add my two cents from an earlier post.
"So far, in the books, what scene between a couple has been your favorite?" Well.....
"Mollywobbles" was frankly hilarious- it summed up Molly's and Arthur's relationship perfectly. The library scene in Book Five with Harry and Ginny was also a good one- anyone else notice how only Ginny could get him to admit what the real issue was? I'm not much of shipper (spent far too much time sailing through typhoons for that), but have been sort of expecting Harry and Ginny to happen since Book Two, due to numerous hints in the books, and yes- Harry did notice Ginny. In fact for someone who he didn't really know, there are many occasions where he notices her when he easily could have missed her. But that is another post.
Others include the post-Ball argument between Ron and Hermione in Book Four. There is also the hilarious scene where Ron and Lavender first get together, and the Lupin-Tonks scene where we finally find out that Tonks loves Lupin (and it appears to be mutual), both in Book Six.
And yes, Puck, the Marauders have not had good luck so far. Two dead, one cursed and one a traitor. But that is different topic. So I shall exit the Shipping Department without launching any additional vessels into these roiled waters.
regards,
gankomon
-----------------
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.
-Number 6
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Die Zimtzicke - May 11, 2007 6:31 am (#1734 of 1858)
I didn't think Ginny got Harry to admit the real issue at all in the library. He was upset about what he had seen his father do. He didn't confide in Ginny at all. He just said that he was did not want to talk to Cho, but to Sirius.
If that scene was truly important, I really think JO would have gotten the film people to handle it differently than they apparently have, from what I've heard talking to people who went to the preview. But that's all I can say about that here.
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Eponine - May 11, 2007 8:06 am (#1735 of 1858)
You know, the chocolate in the library scene has been debated so much, and nothing is going to change some people's minds over it.
Whether Harry told Ginny the real issue or not, he still told her something that he hadn't told anyone else. It might not be a soul-baring confidence, but it was a confidence nonetheless. I don't see why he had to share his entire problem with her for it to be a nice moment for him to actually open up to someone (even just a little) when he was having such a difficult year.
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Steve Newton - May 11, 2007 8:10 am (#1736 of 1858)
Librarian
They shared chocolate. How can there be a more binding tie?
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Eponine - May 11, 2007 9:38 am (#1737 of 1858)
Chocolate is the food of love, after all. =)
Now I want chocolate!
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xray - May 11, 2007 10:20 am (#1738 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
It was also their first one on one conversation ever. Nobody else but them.
And don't forget, Madam Pince screamed "Chocolate in the library!" (that's a hint). It wasn't Food nor was it Eating; it was specifically Chocoloate!
Yay Chocolate! The food of lurve.
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Sunny Baudelaire - May 11, 2007 1:01 pm (#1739 of 1858)
If that scene was truly important, I really think JO would have gotten the film people to handle it differently than they apparently have, from what I've heard talking to people who went to the preview. But that's all I can say about that here.
Jo often foreshadows things 1 book in advance, which the film makers rarely (if ever) do. The films only deal with what was important to Harry in the book they are filming.
Jo actually foreshadows Harry's crush on Cho in Prisoner of Azkaban, when he notices she's pretty and has a swoop in his stomach. The film makers didn't even cast a Cho for POA. The crush wasn't important to the plot until the 4th film, so Warner Brothers didn't bother with it until then.
Every interaction between Harry and Ginny in Order of the Phoenix was setting up Ginny as the object of Harry's affection in the next book. But once again, Warner Brothers is not going to foreshadow a realationship that won't appear on screen for 18 months.
But, alas, if you want to think that the movies are more canon than the books and interviews, then that's your choice.
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Die Zimtzicke - May 12, 2007 6:47 pm (#1740 of 1858)
I don't think films are more canon than books, but I think they're at least equal to interviews, because I do believe, and always have, that Jo has some control over what goes into those films. And I have always believed that if something is important, it should be clear in the books. I don't want to have to look up some interview to find out what Jo should have said in the books adn did not.
As for Cho, how do you film someone's stomach swooping anyway? LOL!
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frogface - May 13, 2007 4:47 am (#1741 of 1858)
I don't take too much notice of what goes into the films even if Jo does has some say about what does and doesn't go in. After all, the PoA movie completely skipped the details on how the Marauder's became animagi and that they created the Marauder's map or how Sirius, and Crouch in GoF escaped Azkaban or why Harry's Patronus was a Stag. But those are all pretty important plot elements in my opinion. So the fact that they seem to have left the Harry/Ginny romance until the HBP movie doesn't surpise me in the least. After all its only very subtly hinted at in OotP, and not really at all in the books preceding that.
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xray - May 13, 2007 7:00 am (#1742 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
or why Harry's Patronus was a Stag. - frogface
Harry's patronus was a stag? I thought it was some giant funnel looking wave thing. Oh and don't forget, dementors can fly. Even though we're told specifically that they don't fly, they glide, in OotP.
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frogface - May 13, 2007 8:48 am (#1743 of 1858)
A stag patronus does make an appearance in PoA - after the great bit wave thingy - but its not explained why it takes the form of a stag. I'm not entirely sure if its even mentioned that Patronuses take the form of animals in the film.
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Sunny Baudelaire - May 14, 2007 4:02 pm (#1744 of 1858)
As for Cho, how do you film someone's stomach swooping anyway?
They did an excellent job of that in the scene on the Hogwarts Express when Cho comes up and orders her 2 pumpkin pasties. VERY OBVIOUSLY a stomach swooping moment. It just came one year later for film!Harry than book!Harry.
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Eponine - May 29, 2007 6:56 am (#1745 of 1858)
Scholastic has up a new poll question about who's going to end up with whom. Personally, I'm quite surprised they put Harry and Hermione as an option. I also wish they'd let you vote for more than one option.
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xray - May 29, 2007 8:23 am (#1746 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Eponine, I saw that. I am disappointed they put up several ships that aren't mutually exclusive with only one vote. It is interesting that they completely excluded Harry/Luna. Hysterical even!
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Sunny Baudelaire - May 29, 2007 8:53 am (#1747 of 1858)
Clearly, Scholastic never checked with Warner Brothers. Someone forgot to tell them that they need to ignore the books because it's the movies that contain the real shipping hints.
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Die Zimtzicke - May 29, 2007 7:34 pm (#1748 of 1858)
Sunny must agree now that there are still shipping hints for H/Hr! How amusing! {;-)
But seriously, that poll means about as much as the one about who was going to live and who was going to die. If I remember corectly, not even Voldemort got a lot of dying votes. It's all silliness to me. The H/Hr option is proof of that, in my personal opinion. Either they're out of touch, or they're pulling our legs.
Although the media release that went with it was VERY Interesting.
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xray - May 30, 2007 10:13 am (#1749 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
Although the media release that went with it was VERY Interesting. - Die Zimtzicke
Yes indeed it was, especially considering the quote they used to support it.
Throughout the past six Harry Potter books, there has been much discussion about relationships: Would Harry and Hermione get together? Ron and Hermione? How about Harry and Luna Lovegood? What other romantic possibilities exist? At the end of Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, Harry says goodbye to his girlfriend:
“I can’t be involved with you anymore. We’ve got to stop seeing each other. We can’t be together.”
She said, with an oddly twisted smile, “It’s for some stupid, noble reason, isn’t it?”
“It’s been like . . . like something out of someone else’s life, these last few weeks with you,” said Harry. “But I can’t . . . we can’t . . . I’ve got things to do alone now.”
. . . "I knew this would happen in the end. I knew you wouldn’t be happy unless you were hunting Voldemort. Maybe that’s why I like you so much.”
Harry could not bear to hear these things, nor did he think his resolution would hold if he remained sitting beside her. Ron, he saw, was now holding Hermione and stroking her hair while she sobbed into his shoulder, tears dripping from the end of his own long nose.
The most amusing part is how they actually mention Harry and Luna Lovegood yet she's completely excluded from the poll as a non-entity. LOLZ!
The poll questions are:
Harry and Ginny
Ron and Hermione
Harry and Hermione
Remus and Tonks
The disappointing thing about the poll is the inclusion of non mutually exclusive pairings. I want to vote for Ron/Hermione, Harry/Ginny, AND Remus/Tonks but I can't.
Nevertheless it doesn't matter. The main pairings have already been verified by Jo. It's Harry and Ginny AND Ron and Hermione.
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Rosie Lu - May 30, 2007 12:28 pm (#1750 of 1858)
The main pairings have already been verified by Jo. It's Harry and Ginny AND Ron and Hermione.
And Remus and Tonks! ;-)
This poll is definitely a nod to the shippers in fandom. I find it very amusing.
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 1751 to 1800)
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Die Zimtzicke - May 30, 2007 1:02 pm (#1751 of 1858)
I disagree that the main pairings have been verified by Jo. She said now we know it's Ron and Hermione. She told H/Hr shippers to go back and reread. But I don't think she has ever confirmed that Harry, Ginny, Remus and Tonks all even live, and certainly not that they will all wind up paired up together in the end. If she has, I want a link to where she said, Yes, we now know it's R/H, H/G and R/T."
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Rosie Lu - May 30, 2007 6:35 pm (#1752 of 1858)
She never said any of them will live, not even Ron and Hermione. She said Ginny is Harry's ideal girl - that's enough to know her thoughts on the ship. As for Remus/Tonks, I think that was made pretty clear at the end of HBP. She also seemed to think favorably of it in her interview with TLC/Mugglenet, much like she did with Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny.
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xray - Jun 1, 2007 3:47 pm (#1753 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
OMG, this is hilarious!
Evanna Lynch is going all out for the part of Luna with her "out to lunch" bit coming into play.
From a recent interview:
P: You like Harry/Hermione, but what about Luna?
EL: My shipper is Luna/Dumbledore, but I know he is dead and that he was a little older, so I don't know what will happen to Luna.
Hee! She's priceless! Not only does she ship Harry/Hermione but also Luna/Dumbledore
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journeymom - Jun 1, 2007 6:54 pm (#1754 of 1858)
I love her. That's hysterical!
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Rosie Lu - Jun 2, 2007 12:58 am (#1755 of 1858)
Luna/Dumbledore? She's perfect for Luna, haha.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jun 2, 2007 6:15 am (#1756 of 1858)
A little older? LOL! I think Evanna was joking, but that's just me. She used to be a fan like any other, so she has to be aware that the fandom has a lot of crazy ship theories. Not that LL/AD don't have a lot in common. I think they do.
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sstabeler - Jun 18, 2007 2:54 pm (#1757 of 1858)
Personally, I think it's going to be Harry/Ginny, Ron/Hermione, Remus/Tonks, Neville/Parvati ( hey, if Harry ends up going out with Neville's date to the Yule ball, why can't Neville go out with Harry's? but for the other characters, I have no idea. But Luna/Percy could be interesting. even if it's unlikely.
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xray - Jun 18, 2007 4:35 pm (#1758 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
sstabeler, I agree with you on all accounts except I don't see Luna/Percy. It sure would be interesting though. Maybe opposites attract? Hee.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jun 18, 2007 6:55 pm (#1759 of 1858)
Didn't Parvati's parents want to pull the twins out of school all year? I'll bet they won't even be back, so I don't ship either of them with anyone anymore.
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sstabeler - Jun 22, 2007 12:28 pm (#1760 of 1858)
Actually, that was Eloise Midgeon. Parvati was pulled out, but only after Dumbledore's death. I can still see Parvati coming back, particularly as she will be of age, so might well override her parents and return anyway.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jun 22, 2007 5:25 pm (#1761 of 1858)
Well, I know the Patil twins were pulled out of school by their parents after Dumbledore's death, but before Dumbledore's funeral, but I can't remember the other reference I'm thinking of. I'll have to go back and look.
Okay- found it. HBP, Chapter 15. Parvati says, after Harry mentions he heard her parents wanted to pull her out of school, that she "managed to talk them out of it for the time being."
So they were trying to talk the girls into leaving school at least from the time of Katie's hospitalization.
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frogface - Jun 23, 2007 3:40 am (#1762 of 1858)
I think Susan Bones might be a good ship for Neville - she's also lost a lot as a result of Voldemort.
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Gatorgrad1991 - Jun 24, 2007 12:19 pm (#1763 of 1858)
sstabeler: said But Luna/Percy could be interesting. even if it's unlikely.
I like Luna with either of the twins, but particularly with George. He has always seemed the quieter of the two, and I think he and Luna would make a good match.
But other than thinking those two would work well together I don't ship Luna. She's just not a "romantic" sort of character to me; too many things about her scream "loner".
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totyle - Jun 24, 2007 11:51 pm (#1764 of 1858)
Just curious, do people really think that DH would have any pages dedicated to new ships other then those already established? I thought HBP was heavy on who's with who so I'm thinking DH is going to be just about getting on with the story. Or are posters posting unpaired pairs just hoping perhaps to see these pairings in the epilogue that JKR's said we'd get with short supporting explanations?
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Jadelollipop - Jun 27, 2007 5:09 am (#1765 of 1858)
I think we will just see the established pairings. (H/G reunited for instance) but I think a lot of people put more emphasis on shipping than warranted and prefer their fanon ships so want to see them in canon...I suspect the greater emphassis (as always) will be on the main plotline of Harry vs Voldemort...
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rambkowalczyk - Jun 29, 2007 6:09 am (#1766 of 1858)
I think it's possible that book 7 might have a Slytherin-Muggleborn pairing. Something like Zabini or Nott paired with a somehat minor character who is known to be Muggleborn.
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MickeyCee3948 - Jun 30, 2007 5:41 am (#1767 of 1858)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Maybe Draco will marry a muggleborn. Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants.
Mickey
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Muggle Doctor - Jul 7, 2007 9:48 am (#1768 of 1858)
Zabini's hatred for Muggleborns was proved on the train in book six.
Nott is an unkown, but a Death Eater offspring and probably not too partial to Muggleborns.
Draco? Too unpredictable. I think his petty prejudices will take a while to shed.
I really don't think we're going to see any major ship-building. It will be more loose ends - whether Tonks gets Remus, Harry gets back with Ginny in the end, Ron finally makes things official with Hermione, etc. What we may well see, however, is interactions between the characters which might feed the ficwriters' imaginations or discussions on ships/fic/both in the post-war world (for the survivors anyway), or fill-ins about James/Lily or whatever might have passed between Lily and Severus.
For some reason, I'm in a "Ginny dies, Harry ships Luna" mode right now. Because Luna is good at (helping Harry in) dealing with death and loss, which might be necessary if the YouTube interview I saw on Mugglenet is anything to go by (Rowling says 'Just because I say two characters die who originally didn't doesn't mean that only those two characters die. This is going to be a bloodbath.') The alternative, in fact my second choice is: "Harry dies, and ships Myrtle."
I know all my thinking is eventually going to be shot down by canon. But it's fun.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 7, 2007 11:01 pm (#1769 of 1858)
Harry dies and ships Myrtle...that would be interesting! But I think if Harry dies, he just goes onto the next great adventure and ships no one. I wouldn't be opposed to Harry/Luna, though. I think it would make him a much better person.
If Ginny dies and ships no one, though, I'm throwing a huge party, which you will be able to hear throughout the midwestern United States.
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Jenniffler - Jul 8, 2007 6:32 am (#1770 of 1858)
Searching for gold in the HP world. Oh, here it is!
That's not funny Die Zimtzicke. (Yes it is, but it's opposed to my opinion, so I did not laugh.)
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Hagsquid - Jul 8, 2007 7:03 am (#1771 of 1858)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
I always liked the Harry/Luna 'ship. I think there's a lot more to her than meets the eyes. She must be a very clever witch to be in Ravenclaw, so I think some of her "out there" ideas are going to pan out in the end. [=
If I hadn't been so into the Harry/Ginny 'ship (which I still am) then I would have been rooting for Harry/Luna. She's not a bad backup plan for the boy.
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sstabeler - Jul 8, 2007 10:25 am (#1772 of 1858)
somehow, I doubt if Ginny dies, Harry will be shipping anybody, from what I can see. it's not like Cho, where he only ever really knew a couple of things about Cho ( she's a seeker, she is pretty), while he has had a long time to get to know Ginny as a person. which usually leads to more stable relationships.
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Hagsquid - Jul 8, 2007 10:38 am (#1773 of 1858)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
I concur.
I fancy the Neville/Luna 'ship more anyway, but there can be little doubt that Luna has flirted with Ron and Harry in the past.
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Catherine - Jul 8, 2007 5:13 pm (#1774 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
I fancy the Neville/Luna 'ship more anyway, but there can be little doubt that Luna has flirted with Ron and Harry in the past. --Hagsquid
Hmmm...I never interpreted Luna as flirting with Harry. Luna is so free of artifice, although I do see her as playful.
In which scene did you think Luna was flirting?
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 8, 2007 5:35 pm (#1775 of 1858)
I agree with Catherine. I think romance strategies are beyond Luna. I didn't see her as flirting, just being her quirky self enjoying the possbility of making some new friends.
I quite liked Neville/Luna, but after Jo shot it down on her site, it was harder for me to enjoy it. There certainly wasn't as much fan fiction on the sites I frequent, after Jo shot it down.
If Ginny did die, which I'm not at all sure of, but not ruling out either, I think Harry could very well find someone else, based on his total lack of curiosity about his dead parents, and his "Sirius who" attitude in HBP. I would hope so anyway. I'd hate to see him alone for the rest of his life, just because he lost a girl he had dated for three weeks and then broken up with.
Harry is always a little aloof, to protect himself in my opinion. He manages to cut off other people pretty well, as we saw when he broke up with Ginny. Ron and Hermione won't let him do that, and he accepts it, but he's got a lot of loner in him he has to overcome before he's ready for a stable relationship in my opinion.
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Hagsquid - Jul 8, 2007 8:15 pm (#1776 of 1858)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
I think it's the scene where he asks her to the party. After reading it from the book, it doesn't seem so flirty. When Jim Dale reads it it sure does though. I guess it just depends on how it's read.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 9, 2007 12:44 pm (#1777 of 1858)
EVERYTHING depends on how it's read, especially ship theories. LOL!
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sstabeler - Jul 10, 2007 1:28 pm (#1778 of 1858)
Erm, Zie, he knew Sirius for what? 2 years before Sirius died, and he knew his parents for one. He has known Ginny for nearly 6 years. also, what do you mean his Sirius who attitude? Sirius is a sore point for Harry, he just suppresses his grief for the most part so he can get on with life. I doubt he would suppress his grief over Ginny were to die. After all,the Weasleys would be grieving, as well as Hermione. Not exactly the right circumstances for Harry to adopt a Ginny Who? attitude, not to mention Ron wouldn't forgive him if he did.
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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 10, 2007 2:45 pm (#1779 of 1858)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
sstabeler Trying to get Die to say anything positive about Ginny is impossible. A number of us have been trying for months and it won't happen. I'm not trying to start another round of argumentative discussions just stating a fact.
Mickey
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 10, 2007 9:29 pm (#1780 of 1858)
Sirius and Harry's grief over him is a VERY sore point for me, but one that needs to go on another thread, which is where I will take it.
But I still do not think Harry knows much of anything about Ginny at all, and he certainly didn't KNOW her for six years. His first year at school he wouldn't even have known her name if he hadn't been eavesdropping on the Weasleys in the train station. And all she knows about him is that he's the boy-who-lived, going after Voldemort. If she knows a lot about him, we didn't see her finding it out on the page. He never confided in her and she never tried to get him to.
But I still think the best ending would be Dead Harry, so I think a lot of shipping discussions are a moot point. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. There's more to the books than shipping.
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M A Grimmett - Jul 11, 2007 2:13 pm (#1781 of 1858)
Harry's lived at the Burrow quite a bit over summers and some holidays, not to mention the time at Grimmauld Place. He and Ginny were in close proximity, plenty of time to find out about each other.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 11, 2007 9:20 pm (#1782 of 1858)
Yeah, it would have been nice if we'd seen any of that.
LOL!
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sstabeler - Jul 16, 2007 12:12 pm (#1783 of 1858)
Die, we didn't see harry actually ask Ginny out either, did we? but we were given enough information to be able to figure out that he had. it;s the same here. the chances that they got to know each other are high.
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Muggle Doctor - Jul 18, 2007 7:01 am (#1784 of 1858)
After they have kissed, the text mentions that he leads her away from the common room so they can be on their own for quite a while, "and if there was time, they might get around to discussing the game". Or something like that.
I don't know about you, but I suspect that Harry's second "first kiss" was a much more pleasant experience than his first "first kiss". If I were that age, I think I'd rather kiss a Ginny Weasley flush with triumph after winning the Quidditch Cup than kiss a Cho Chang still weeping over her murdered boyfriend.
Ha, you thought the kiss in the OOTP film was eagerly awaited? Wait until the film for HBP...
And yet, there is still a part of me that, at the eleventh hour, wants either the Harry/Hermione or the Harry/Luna crowd to be right.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 18, 2007 7:49 am (#1785 of 1858)
I'd love the Harry/Luna crowd to be right, because Luna is a much more interesting character, but I don't REALLY think they will be. And the H/Hr crowd has already lost as far as I'm concerned, and deep down, I think the majority of them know it.
As much as I abhore the idea, I don't think Ginny has any other purpose than to be Harry's prize he gets for winning. Her main purpose as I see it is to wait for him to either come and rescue the damsel in distress, or simply wait for him to pay attention to her in every single book. She's always been nothing more than the Weasley with the womb to me. And I fear she will continue to be.
She'll probably need saving again, and she'll probably be Harry's snog toy again, because that's all she ever has been. Unless Harry dies. Then all bets are off. I really do not think she has any other point to the plot. I'll be surprised if she does anything at all successfully on her own.
We'll see soon enough.
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xray - Jul 18, 2007 8:12 am (#1786 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
I really do not think she has any other point to the plot. I'll be surprised if she does anything at all successfully on her own. - DZ
Really? Despite the multiple references to her extraordinary power? We've seen her exceptional ability alluded to in the books, in Jo's interviews, and adduced to in many essays and argument points. How can one consider this extraneous? I know you hate Ginny with an inordinate amount of passion but you can't seriously deny she's been written for more.
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The Viking - Jul 18, 2007 8:31 am (#1787 of 1858)
I know you hate Ginny with an inordinate amount of passion but you can't seriously deny she's been written for more.
Well, she can. At least I can.
The way her power is alluded to, but not shown, the lack of in-depth interaction between the Hero and his Girl...
At least in me, Jo's handling of Ginny leaves behind an impression of utter insignificance despite the space used to build her up to the role as the hero's girl. My feeling is that Ginny's contribution in the last book will be either very small, or negative.
I has a past as a rabid H/Hr shipper. And while I still prefer that ship, Jo's interviews has forced me into consider it likely I will not get my ship. I am able to see and accept the logic behind the Ron/Hermione ship but Harry/Ginny makes no sense whatsoever.
My prediction is: Either Harry will die, leaving Ron and Hermione behind as a couple, or there will actually still be surprises in store for us shipwise. In that case, perhaps Hermione will be Harry's girl after all?
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xray - Jul 18, 2007 9:07 am (#1788 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
The way her power is alluded to, but not shown, the lack of in-depth interaction between the Hero and his Girl.. - The Viking
So then what is the significance of her power? Why does Jo say Ginny is Harry's ideal equal?
there will actually still be surprises in store for us shipwise. In that case, perhaps Hermione will be Harry's girl after all?
ROFLMAO!!!!
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M A Grimmett - Jul 18, 2007 11:54 am (#1789 of 1858)
I guess I don't understand what all the fuss is over 'ships. JKR has said quite firmly what the pairings are. I understand people may not like them, but there they are regardless.
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Luna Logic - Jul 18, 2007 12:15 pm (#1790 of 1858)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Furthermore I think JKR wants to mark the difference between love and friendship.
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Eponine - Jul 19, 2007 6:48 am (#1791 of 1858)
Okay, quick shipping predictions for DH.
Harry/Ginny - will come to an understanding at some point early in the book, but they will not officially get back together until much closer to the end. They will get married and live happily ever after.
Ron/Hermione - won't be officially together at the beginning of the book, but they will be by the end. Harry will catch them kissing at some point. They will get married and live happily ever after.
Bill/Fleur - the wedding will go off smoothly and they will both survive to live happily ever after.
Remus/Tonks - Um...they will get married and live happily ever after.
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Luna Logic - Jul 19, 2007 6:52 am (#1792 of 1858)
from the other side (of the Channel)
I take all Eponine predictions.
One more : Harid/Madame Maxime... they will be married and adopt Grawp... and live long and happy ...Um.
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Catherine - Jul 19, 2007 7:52 am (#1793 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
Do we think Hagrid will be successful in procuring a lady friend for Grawp?
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Muggle Doctor - Jul 19, 2007 8:05 am (#1794 of 1858)
Hagrid/Maxime or Grawp/Lady Giant - I can just imagine when the kids come along. "Thas' right, I want LARGE size ADULT diapers fer me newborn!"
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Elanor - Jul 19, 2007 8:30 am (#1795 of 1858)
Suddenly wondering if Engorgement Charms work on diapers...
Ok, maybe this time I am ripe for St Mungo's!
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Luna Logic - Jul 19, 2007 10:07 am (#1796 of 1858)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Maybe we rent a bus to go together, some of us forumers, and speak of little giant babies all the road long? (I can't wait anymore... what to do ?)
Seriously, now. Will Grawp find a lady ?
My prediction is that he is the last Giant...
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 19, 2007 11:32 am (#1797 of 1858)
Bill/Fleur comment- I still think the wedding has a huge TARGET painted on it, and something dreadful will happen there. Some sort of attack that goes better for the Death Eaters than their miserably pathetic attempts thus far have gone.
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Potter Ace - Jul 19, 2007 11:41 am (#1798 of 1858)
I agree with Die, surely a large gathering of the order at a known date and location would attract a large number of DE's and since it will be in the beginning of the book, I to think that their will be much chaos and possibly more then 1 death for the good guys.
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legolas returns - Jul 19, 2007 11:43 am (#1799 of 1858)
Die-That could get a little messy. You know what arguments are like at weddings. Magical weddings ending in AKs.
Seriously I agree that an ambush is likely unless they get married in relative secrecy e.g nobody knows the location until 5 minutes beforehand and they apparate/portkey in.
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Steve Newton - Jul 19, 2007 11:56 am (#1800 of 1858)
Librarian
On the other hand at the Corleone wedding the FBI did show up but did not go in. It could also be a trap for the DEs. An obvious target where we will have our guard down, wink, wink.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I disagree that the main pairings have been verified by Jo. She said now we know it's Ron and Hermione. She told H/Hr shippers to go back and reread. But I don't think she has ever confirmed that Harry, Ginny, Remus and Tonks all even live, and certainly not that they will all wind up paired up together in the end. If she has, I want a link to where she said, Yes, we now know it's R/H, H/G and R/T."
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Rosie Lu - May 30, 2007 6:35 pm (#1752 of 1858)
She never said any of them will live, not even Ron and Hermione. She said Ginny is Harry's ideal girl - that's enough to know her thoughts on the ship. As for Remus/Tonks, I think that was made pretty clear at the end of HBP. She also seemed to think favorably of it in her interview with TLC/Mugglenet, much like she did with Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny.
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xray - Jun 1, 2007 3:47 pm (#1753 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
OMG, this is hilarious!
Evanna Lynch is going all out for the part of Luna with her "out to lunch" bit coming into play.
From a recent interview:
P: You like Harry/Hermione, but what about Luna?
EL: My shipper is Luna/Dumbledore, but I know he is dead and that he was a little older, so I don't know what will happen to Luna.
Hee! She's priceless! Not only does she ship Harry/Hermione but also Luna/Dumbledore
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journeymom - Jun 1, 2007 6:54 pm (#1754 of 1858)
I love her. That's hysterical!
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Rosie Lu - Jun 2, 2007 12:58 am (#1755 of 1858)
Luna/Dumbledore? She's perfect for Luna, haha.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jun 2, 2007 6:15 am (#1756 of 1858)
A little older? LOL! I think Evanna was joking, but that's just me. She used to be a fan like any other, so she has to be aware that the fandom has a lot of crazy ship theories. Not that LL/AD don't have a lot in common. I think they do.
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sstabeler - Jun 18, 2007 2:54 pm (#1757 of 1858)
Personally, I think it's going to be Harry/Ginny, Ron/Hermione, Remus/Tonks, Neville/Parvati ( hey, if Harry ends up going out with Neville's date to the Yule ball, why can't Neville go out with Harry's? but for the other characters, I have no idea. But Luna/Percy could be interesting. even if it's unlikely.
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xray - Jun 18, 2007 4:35 pm (#1758 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
sstabeler, I agree with you on all accounts except I don't see Luna/Percy. It sure would be interesting though. Maybe opposites attract? Hee.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jun 18, 2007 6:55 pm (#1759 of 1858)
Didn't Parvati's parents want to pull the twins out of school all year? I'll bet they won't even be back, so I don't ship either of them with anyone anymore.
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sstabeler - Jun 22, 2007 12:28 pm (#1760 of 1858)
Actually, that was Eloise Midgeon. Parvati was pulled out, but only after Dumbledore's death. I can still see Parvati coming back, particularly as she will be of age, so might well override her parents and return anyway.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jun 22, 2007 5:25 pm (#1761 of 1858)
Well, I know the Patil twins were pulled out of school by their parents after Dumbledore's death, but before Dumbledore's funeral, but I can't remember the other reference I'm thinking of. I'll have to go back and look.
Okay- found it. HBP, Chapter 15. Parvati says, after Harry mentions he heard her parents wanted to pull her out of school, that she "managed to talk them out of it for the time being."
So they were trying to talk the girls into leaving school at least from the time of Katie's hospitalization.
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frogface - Jun 23, 2007 3:40 am (#1762 of 1858)
I think Susan Bones might be a good ship for Neville - she's also lost a lot as a result of Voldemort.
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Gatorgrad1991 - Jun 24, 2007 12:19 pm (#1763 of 1858)
sstabeler: said But Luna/Percy could be interesting. even if it's unlikely.
I like Luna with either of the twins, but particularly with George. He has always seemed the quieter of the two, and I think he and Luna would make a good match.
But other than thinking those two would work well together I don't ship Luna. She's just not a "romantic" sort of character to me; too many things about her scream "loner".
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totyle - Jun 24, 2007 11:51 pm (#1764 of 1858)
Just curious, do people really think that DH would have any pages dedicated to new ships other then those already established? I thought HBP was heavy on who's with who so I'm thinking DH is going to be just about getting on with the story. Or are posters posting unpaired pairs just hoping perhaps to see these pairings in the epilogue that JKR's said we'd get with short supporting explanations?
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Jadelollipop - Jun 27, 2007 5:09 am (#1765 of 1858)
I think we will just see the established pairings. (H/G reunited for instance) but I think a lot of people put more emphasis on shipping than warranted and prefer their fanon ships so want to see them in canon...I suspect the greater emphassis (as always) will be on the main plotline of Harry vs Voldemort...
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rambkowalczyk - Jun 29, 2007 6:09 am (#1766 of 1858)
I think it's possible that book 7 might have a Slytherin-Muggleborn pairing. Something like Zabini or Nott paired with a somehat minor character who is known to be Muggleborn.
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MickeyCee3948 - Jun 30, 2007 5:41 am (#1767 of 1858)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Maybe Draco will marry a muggleborn. Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants.
Mickey
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Muggle Doctor - Jul 7, 2007 9:48 am (#1768 of 1858)
Zabini's hatred for Muggleborns was proved on the train in book six.
Nott is an unkown, but a Death Eater offspring and probably not too partial to Muggleborns.
Draco? Too unpredictable. I think his petty prejudices will take a while to shed.
I really don't think we're going to see any major ship-building. It will be more loose ends - whether Tonks gets Remus, Harry gets back with Ginny in the end, Ron finally makes things official with Hermione, etc. What we may well see, however, is interactions between the characters which might feed the ficwriters' imaginations or discussions on ships/fic/both in the post-war world (for the survivors anyway), or fill-ins about James/Lily or whatever might have passed between Lily and Severus.
For some reason, I'm in a "Ginny dies, Harry ships Luna" mode right now. Because Luna is good at (helping Harry in) dealing with death and loss, which might be necessary if the YouTube interview I saw on Mugglenet is anything to go by (Rowling says 'Just because I say two characters die who originally didn't doesn't mean that only those two characters die. This is going to be a bloodbath.') The alternative, in fact my second choice is: "Harry dies, and ships Myrtle."
I know all my thinking is eventually going to be shot down by canon. But it's fun.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 7, 2007 11:01 pm (#1769 of 1858)
Harry dies and ships Myrtle...that would be interesting! But I think if Harry dies, he just goes onto the next great adventure and ships no one. I wouldn't be opposed to Harry/Luna, though. I think it would make him a much better person.
If Ginny dies and ships no one, though, I'm throwing a huge party, which you will be able to hear throughout the midwestern United States.
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Jenniffler - Jul 8, 2007 6:32 am (#1770 of 1858)
Searching for gold in the HP world. Oh, here it is!
That's not funny Die Zimtzicke. (Yes it is, but it's opposed to my opinion, so I did not laugh.)
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Hagsquid - Jul 8, 2007 7:03 am (#1771 of 1858)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
I always liked the Harry/Luna 'ship. I think there's a lot more to her than meets the eyes. She must be a very clever witch to be in Ravenclaw, so I think some of her "out there" ideas are going to pan out in the end. [=
If I hadn't been so into the Harry/Ginny 'ship (which I still am) then I would have been rooting for Harry/Luna. She's not a bad backup plan for the boy.
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sstabeler - Jul 8, 2007 10:25 am (#1772 of 1858)
somehow, I doubt if Ginny dies, Harry will be shipping anybody, from what I can see. it's not like Cho, where he only ever really knew a couple of things about Cho ( she's a seeker, she is pretty), while he has had a long time to get to know Ginny as a person. which usually leads to more stable relationships.
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Hagsquid - Jul 8, 2007 10:38 am (#1773 of 1858)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
I concur.
I fancy the Neville/Luna 'ship more anyway, but there can be little doubt that Luna has flirted with Ron and Harry in the past.
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Catherine - Jul 8, 2007 5:13 pm (#1774 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
I fancy the Neville/Luna 'ship more anyway, but there can be little doubt that Luna has flirted with Ron and Harry in the past. --Hagsquid
Hmmm...I never interpreted Luna as flirting with Harry. Luna is so free of artifice, although I do see her as playful.
In which scene did you think Luna was flirting?
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 8, 2007 5:35 pm (#1775 of 1858)
I agree with Catherine. I think romance strategies are beyond Luna. I didn't see her as flirting, just being her quirky self enjoying the possbility of making some new friends.
I quite liked Neville/Luna, but after Jo shot it down on her site, it was harder for me to enjoy it. There certainly wasn't as much fan fiction on the sites I frequent, after Jo shot it down.
If Ginny did die, which I'm not at all sure of, but not ruling out either, I think Harry could very well find someone else, based on his total lack of curiosity about his dead parents, and his "Sirius who" attitude in HBP. I would hope so anyway. I'd hate to see him alone for the rest of his life, just because he lost a girl he had dated for three weeks and then broken up with.
Harry is always a little aloof, to protect himself in my opinion. He manages to cut off other people pretty well, as we saw when he broke up with Ginny. Ron and Hermione won't let him do that, and he accepts it, but he's got a lot of loner in him he has to overcome before he's ready for a stable relationship in my opinion.
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Hagsquid - Jul 8, 2007 8:15 pm (#1776 of 1858)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
I think it's the scene where he asks her to the party. After reading it from the book, it doesn't seem so flirty. When Jim Dale reads it it sure does though. I guess it just depends on how it's read.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 9, 2007 12:44 pm (#1777 of 1858)
EVERYTHING depends on how it's read, especially ship theories. LOL!
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sstabeler - Jul 10, 2007 1:28 pm (#1778 of 1858)
Erm, Zie, he knew Sirius for what? 2 years before Sirius died, and he knew his parents for one. He has known Ginny for nearly 6 years. also, what do you mean his Sirius who attitude? Sirius is a sore point for Harry, he just suppresses his grief for the most part so he can get on with life. I doubt he would suppress his grief over Ginny were to die. After all,the Weasleys would be grieving, as well as Hermione. Not exactly the right circumstances for Harry to adopt a Ginny Who? attitude, not to mention Ron wouldn't forgive him if he did.
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MickeyCee3948 - Jul 10, 2007 2:45 pm (#1779 of 1858)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
sstabeler Trying to get Die to say anything positive about Ginny is impossible. A number of us have been trying for months and it won't happen. I'm not trying to start another round of argumentative discussions just stating a fact.
Mickey
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 10, 2007 9:29 pm (#1780 of 1858)
Sirius and Harry's grief over him is a VERY sore point for me, but one that needs to go on another thread, which is where I will take it.
But I still do not think Harry knows much of anything about Ginny at all, and he certainly didn't KNOW her for six years. His first year at school he wouldn't even have known her name if he hadn't been eavesdropping on the Weasleys in the train station. And all she knows about him is that he's the boy-who-lived, going after Voldemort. If she knows a lot about him, we didn't see her finding it out on the page. He never confided in her and she never tried to get him to.
But I still think the best ending would be Dead Harry, so I think a lot of shipping discussions are a moot point. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. There's more to the books than shipping.
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M A Grimmett - Jul 11, 2007 2:13 pm (#1781 of 1858)
Harry's lived at the Burrow quite a bit over summers and some holidays, not to mention the time at Grimmauld Place. He and Ginny were in close proximity, plenty of time to find out about each other.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 11, 2007 9:20 pm (#1782 of 1858)
Yeah, it would have been nice if we'd seen any of that.
LOL!
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sstabeler - Jul 16, 2007 12:12 pm (#1783 of 1858)
Die, we didn't see harry actually ask Ginny out either, did we? but we were given enough information to be able to figure out that he had. it;s the same here. the chances that they got to know each other are high.
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Muggle Doctor - Jul 18, 2007 7:01 am (#1784 of 1858)
After they have kissed, the text mentions that he leads her away from the common room so they can be on their own for quite a while, "and if there was time, they might get around to discussing the game". Or something like that.
I don't know about you, but I suspect that Harry's second "first kiss" was a much more pleasant experience than his first "first kiss". If I were that age, I think I'd rather kiss a Ginny Weasley flush with triumph after winning the Quidditch Cup than kiss a Cho Chang still weeping over her murdered boyfriend.
Ha, you thought the kiss in the OOTP film was eagerly awaited? Wait until the film for HBP...
And yet, there is still a part of me that, at the eleventh hour, wants either the Harry/Hermione or the Harry/Luna crowd to be right.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 18, 2007 7:49 am (#1785 of 1858)
I'd love the Harry/Luna crowd to be right, because Luna is a much more interesting character, but I don't REALLY think they will be. And the H/Hr crowd has already lost as far as I'm concerned, and deep down, I think the majority of them know it.
As much as I abhore the idea, I don't think Ginny has any other purpose than to be Harry's prize he gets for winning. Her main purpose as I see it is to wait for him to either come and rescue the damsel in distress, or simply wait for him to pay attention to her in every single book. She's always been nothing more than the Weasley with the womb to me. And I fear she will continue to be.
She'll probably need saving again, and she'll probably be Harry's snog toy again, because that's all she ever has been. Unless Harry dies. Then all bets are off. I really do not think she has any other point to the plot. I'll be surprised if she does anything at all successfully on her own.
We'll see soon enough.
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xray - Jul 18, 2007 8:12 am (#1786 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
I really do not think she has any other point to the plot. I'll be surprised if she does anything at all successfully on her own. - DZ
Really? Despite the multiple references to her extraordinary power? We've seen her exceptional ability alluded to in the books, in Jo's interviews, and adduced to in many essays and argument points. How can one consider this extraneous? I know you hate Ginny with an inordinate amount of passion but you can't seriously deny she's been written for more.
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The Viking - Jul 18, 2007 8:31 am (#1787 of 1858)
I know you hate Ginny with an inordinate amount of passion but you can't seriously deny she's been written for more.
Well, she can. At least I can.
The way her power is alluded to, but not shown, the lack of in-depth interaction between the Hero and his Girl...
At least in me, Jo's handling of Ginny leaves behind an impression of utter insignificance despite the space used to build her up to the role as the hero's girl. My feeling is that Ginny's contribution in the last book will be either very small, or negative.
I has a past as a rabid H/Hr shipper. And while I still prefer that ship, Jo's interviews has forced me into consider it likely I will not get my ship. I am able to see and accept the logic behind the Ron/Hermione ship but Harry/Ginny makes no sense whatsoever.
My prediction is: Either Harry will die, leaving Ron and Hermione behind as a couple, or there will actually still be surprises in store for us shipwise. In that case, perhaps Hermione will be Harry's girl after all?
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xray - Jul 18, 2007 9:07 am (#1788 of 1858)
Hermione will work in Fred & George's Joke Shop after Hogwarts
The way her power is alluded to, but not shown, the lack of in-depth interaction between the Hero and his Girl.. - The Viking
So then what is the significance of her power? Why does Jo say Ginny is Harry's ideal equal?
there will actually still be surprises in store for us shipwise. In that case, perhaps Hermione will be Harry's girl after all?
ROFLMAO!!!!
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M A Grimmett - Jul 18, 2007 11:54 am (#1789 of 1858)
I guess I don't understand what all the fuss is over 'ships. JKR has said quite firmly what the pairings are. I understand people may not like them, but there they are regardless.
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Luna Logic - Jul 18, 2007 12:15 pm (#1790 of 1858)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Furthermore I think JKR wants to mark the difference between love and friendship.
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Eponine - Jul 19, 2007 6:48 am (#1791 of 1858)
Okay, quick shipping predictions for DH.
Harry/Ginny - will come to an understanding at some point early in the book, but they will not officially get back together until much closer to the end. They will get married and live happily ever after.
Ron/Hermione - won't be officially together at the beginning of the book, but they will be by the end. Harry will catch them kissing at some point. They will get married and live happily ever after.
Bill/Fleur - the wedding will go off smoothly and they will both survive to live happily ever after.
Remus/Tonks - Um...they will get married and live happily ever after.
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Luna Logic - Jul 19, 2007 6:52 am (#1792 of 1858)
from the other side (of the Channel)
I take all Eponine predictions.
One more : Harid/Madame Maxime... they will be married and adopt Grawp... and live long and happy ...Um.
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Catherine - Jul 19, 2007 7:52 am (#1793 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
Do we think Hagrid will be successful in procuring a lady friend for Grawp?
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Muggle Doctor - Jul 19, 2007 8:05 am (#1794 of 1858)
Hagrid/Maxime or Grawp/Lady Giant - I can just imagine when the kids come along. "Thas' right, I want LARGE size ADULT diapers fer me newborn!"
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Elanor - Jul 19, 2007 8:30 am (#1795 of 1858)
Suddenly wondering if Engorgement Charms work on diapers...
Ok, maybe this time I am ripe for St Mungo's!
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Luna Logic - Jul 19, 2007 10:07 am (#1796 of 1858)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Maybe we rent a bus to go together, some of us forumers, and speak of little giant babies all the road long? (I can't wait anymore... what to do ?)
Seriously, now. Will Grawp find a lady ?
My prediction is that he is the last Giant...
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 19, 2007 11:32 am (#1797 of 1858)
Bill/Fleur comment- I still think the wedding has a huge TARGET painted on it, and something dreadful will happen there. Some sort of attack that goes better for the Death Eaters than their miserably pathetic attempts thus far have gone.
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Potter Ace - Jul 19, 2007 11:41 am (#1798 of 1858)
I agree with Die, surely a large gathering of the order at a known date and location would attract a large number of DE's and since it will be in the beginning of the book, I to think that their will be much chaos and possibly more then 1 death for the good guys.
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legolas returns - Jul 19, 2007 11:43 am (#1799 of 1858)
Die-That could get a little messy. You know what arguments are like at weddings. Magical weddings ending in AKs.
Seriously I agree that an ambush is likely unless they get married in relative secrecy e.g nobody knows the location until 5 minutes beforehand and they apparate/portkey in.
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Steve Newton - Jul 19, 2007 11:56 am (#1800 of 1858)
Librarian
On the other hand at the Corleone wedding the FBI did show up but did not go in. It could also be a trap for the DEs. An obvious target where we will have our guard down, wink, wink.
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Ship-Ship (Exploring Relationships) Part II (Post 1801 to 1858)
Elanor Sun May 15, 2011 10:15 am
sstabeler - Jul 20, 2007 1:11 pm (#1801 of 1858)
Can you imagine it? Inner Circle turn up, expecting an easy win, then synchronised stunning curses from everyone in attendance. The DES would be dead, in all likelihood. Certainly they would have horrific casualty figures.
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Finn BV - Jul 23, 2007 11:28 am (#1802 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Well, I've never been much of a shipper, but I was really thrilled to set sail on Luna/Dean in this book. You really had to read between the lines to pick up on it. These are the clues I found:
Luna and Dean both spent some time together at Shell Cottage (Bill and Fleur's) (DH25). The only other people around were HRH, who were off making plans with Griphook; Ollivander left, I believe, a few days after their arrival, and Bill and Fleur. Luna and Dean probably got to know each other then.
US edition, p. 604, DH30, as people come poring through the Hog's Head/Room of Requirement passageway: "Come on, Luna," Dean called as he passed, holding out his free hand; she took it and followed him back up the stairs."
Both are artists: Dean we know from p. 184 (US edition) (P/SS11), when he draws a poster for the first Quidditch match; Luna we know from the drawings on her bedroom ceiling of HRH, Ginny and Neville (p. 417, US, DH21). Plus, Luna I believe made her turnip earrings which she wore in OP.
This might be a bit of a stretch, but Dean used to date Ginny, who became a good friend of Luna; perhaps Dean just went down the line after Ginny broke up with him?
Anyway, this was a really delightful part of DH!
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Mrs Figg - Jul 23, 2007 1:41 pm (#1803 of 1858)
Finn BV
I can't say that I picked up on it while reading but with re-reading the aforementioned sections I could see a Luna-Dean ship setting sail.
On another note...
At the end of book 7 in the epilogue when Teddy Lupin is snogging some girl Victoire and they discuss him becoming officially related to the Potters, I assume Victoire must be the daughter of Bill and Fleur? Does anyone else agree/disagree? Also I wonder what the main characters respective careers were? Hermione (Healer?), Ron and Harry (Aurors or something else in the ministry?), and Ginny (stay at home Mom?)
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Denise P. - Jul 23, 2007 1:45 pm (#1804 of 1858)
Ravenclaw Pony
Well, we know she is a Weasley cousin, since it says "our cousin" We can rule out Ginny, we can rule out Ron immediately. We can assume it is not Percy since he is quoting broomstick regulations rather than worrying about his daughter playing tonsil hockey with Teddy on a public platform. That only leaves George and Bill. Based on the spelling of her name, it is incredibly probably that she is Bill and Fleur's daughter. I guess she could be Charlie's but I doubt it.
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Finn BV - Jul 23, 2007 2:22 pm (#1805 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
I think you've got to assume it's Bill and Fleur's because of the French name. That was cute though – both children of werewolves/semi-werewolves.
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totyle - Jul 23, 2007 9:56 pm (#1806 of 1858)
I think we need to give what's due to all those who so rightly predicted that we wont actually get to see that much of Ginny apart from as the price for the hero...I liked the fact that the trio remained the trio very much...and the way everybody turned up in the end was wonderful so I didnt miss Ginny at all...only after having finished the book I realised that Ginny's character having been developed in HBP was all there was...H/G did end up together but it wasnt really a BIG thing which actually was IMO brilliant as I couldnt have tolerated another HBP like page after page of shipping issues. It seems that first half of HBP did away with a lot of the minor shipping issues so the later part of HBP and the final book could concentrate on the real story.
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Luna Logic - Jul 25, 2007 12:35 am (#1807 of 1858)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Yes Ginny seems in the second half of DH only a little girl again, having to be protected by adults...
Concerning the young married couples : he young woman who is in the final battle, Tonks, died.
Fleur, who stays in her cottage, lives.
I don't know what to do of that...
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Potteraholic - Jul 25, 2007 9:09 am (#1808 of 1858)
"Plenty of courage, I see. Not a bad mind either. There's talent - and a nice thirst to prove yourself ..." (PS/SS)
Re: Hermione and Ron
Don't know if this has been mentioned before - started reading the 'shipping posts to research it (both archived and current ones, but there are 1,000s!) - so I apologize if this has already been discussed.
Have only read DH once and rather then reread it immediately, have decided to read all the books again in order from Year 1 to Year 7. Have not reread the books like this before; always reread particular books out of sequence for specific reasons having to do with researching theories, getting ready to watch a particular movie, etc. Now want to see where Jo laid the foundation for things that came up in HBP and DH and read Harry's tale as one long, uninterrupted narrative.
When I read about the troll in the dungeon in PS/SS, when the trio become hard and fast friends, I noticed that even though it was Harry who remembered that Hermione was left behind and wanted to get her, and even though it was Harry who jumped on the troll's back and stuck his wand up its nose, it was Ron who said the spell Wingardium Leviosa that actually saved Hermione by making the troll's club drop on his head.
Remember how he learned that spell, partnered up with Hermione in Flitwick's Charms class, rolling his eyes at hearing Hermione's instruction on the correct pronunciation of the charm and where to put the stress? And how he said those mean things at the end of class that she overheard that made her run off crying?
Well, he obviously was paying attention to her and learned how to do the charm properly, unbeknownst to him, and his attention helped save her from the troll. And it was what helped form the trio's friendship.
"But from that moment on, Hermione Granger became their friend. There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other, and knocking out a twelve-foot mountain troll is one of them."(This passage has always been one of my favorite passages from the 1st book.)
I guess what I'm saying is, it seems Ron seemed to have been attuned to or receptive to Hermione in some way, without his even realizing it, right from the start.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 25, 2007 9:18 am (#1809 of 1858)
Ventures in, for what will probably be one of the last times...
Okay, with H/G, can anyone tell me where in DH she was Harry's equal, because I STILL don't get it. She helped, when she was allowed to or could, but she didn't do anything anyone else didn't do. And I thought she was pretty insecure still being jealous of Gabrielle and Cho, and thinking she had to snog Harry like firewhisky for him to remember her. I would have thought by then she'd have faith he'd remember her.
A scene between them after the battle, or him at least comforting her for a moment after Fred's death would have gone along way to help, but no, Harry doesn't think of her feelings or her loyalty, or her wit in this book. He thinks of her snogging and her hair mostly, as usual. She was NOT especially powerful in this book, that I could see. I think her character got shafted.
And also, can someone tellme what the POINT of Remus/Tonks was? I like the pairing, but it seemed pretty pointless, unless it was simply to make Andromeda the next generation's Gran Longbottom. Tonks moons after him, she gets him, gets pregnant, he regrets it all, and they die. Whoop-de-do. We needed that WHY? I'm bitter about that, because I think it could have been done so much better.
And as for ships...did I miss it? Who did Draco finally marry? Not Pansy, I hope! I used to love that ship, but she was a twit as I see it.
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Luna Logic - Jul 25, 2007 9:24 am (#1810 of 1858)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Edited by Jul 25, 2007 9:27 am
I agree with you, Die Z, Ginny's character didn't keep the promises it had (for me!); the Ginny/Harry's story began well in DH but came to nothing worth to read in the end (I don't count the epilogue!); and the story of Tonks and Lupin was not a very pleasant one to read...
That left... Bill and Fleur, Hermione and Ron, Luna and Dean, then Drago and... (Why not Pansy, because they called their son Scorpius!)
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legolas returns - Jul 25, 2007 11:20 am (#1811 of 1858)
I am pretty sure that Draco did not marry Pansy especially after her performance in the Great Hall-Harry/Ron would have passed negative comment on Dracos wife. When I first read the name Scorpius I thought about getting stung by a Scorpion-Draco/his family made the wrong choices and his family got stung by Voldemort.
Harry/Ginny-I think he could not bear to comfort her because he was so wracked with guilt over the people that died for him. He had to complete his tasks before getting rid of Voldemort. He was kind of too busy saving the world-Ginny understood this. Once the world was safe I think he needed time to sort out his thoughts-he was still guilt ridden and had had to deal with everybodies grief/celebrations when he wanted quiet time with the people important to him. He knew Ginny would still be there in the future. All the same by this time a little bit of comfort would have gone a long way.
I agree that the Lupin/Tonks was not pleasant to read. Lupin did go back to Tonks after Harry gave him grief. When the baby was born Lupin did seemed incredibly pleased. They had even less time than Harry had with his parents. I get the feeling that Lupin felt duty bound to go into battle regardless of his parenting duties. Tonks could not bear to have him in battle and not know what was happening to him-hence the reason she followed him.
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Sticky Glue - Jul 25, 2007 3:22 pm (#1812 of 1858)
I also have to admit that I was a little disapointed in Ginny's development in this book. But someone else on this forum (sorry can't remember where or who) commented that is seems like JKR tried to get most of the ships set and delt with at the beginning of HBP so that the rest of HBP and this book could get on with the main plot and story. That sort of made sense to me.
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Steve Newton - Jul 25, 2007 5:54 pm (#1813 of 1858)
Librarian
It makes sense but is still disappointing. I think that she needs to write a book about the happenings at Hogwarts during the year. It would be quite exciting. Neville and Ginny leading the revolt, Aberforth's aid, Snape trying to help while looking evil, the Carrows and their nastiness, the professors trying to carry on. Sigh.
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totyle - Jul 25, 2007 6:09 pm (#1814 of 1858)
Edited by Catherine Jul 26, 2007 6:54 am
He he..that was me Sticky glue...
The only ship that really mattered to me in the series was Ron and Hermione's ship..and that was wonderfully handled...everything else for me wasnt particularly interesting to ship about..
One thing that bugged me was, I know Ginny's the youngest so I guess the males around her were being very protective saying she had to stay put as she was underage etc..but what about Luna? Isnt Luna underage too...she's in Ginny's year isnt she but there was no one for her..no one to tell her to stay..you're underage..
Luna's character was wonderful, she was a true frind to the end...understanding Harry without needing any words from him. Who cares about 'love'ships when friendship is developed this way..I loved everything about Luna in this book, her wit, her gentleness, her insight into Harry's mind...simply loved her.
Edited to remove the word "u're" and to capitalize the letter "I." Please do not use Netspeak on the Forum.--Catherine
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 25, 2007 6:59 pm (#1815 of 1858)
Luna wasn't neccesarily under age. We still don't know when her birthday is. She could have had a birthday before Ginny. But yes, she was wonderful to everyone in this book. I ship her Harry/Luna, Dean/Luna, Neville/Luna...you name it. Anyone who got her would be a lucky person. Look how she cheered up and ministered to everyone when she was kidnapped.
I find the comment that Harry knew Ginny would still be there in the future kind of demeaning, actually. She's been waiting for him to have the time and inclination to pay attention to her since she was ten, however, so of course, what's a bit longer?
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Elaine2005 - Jul 25, 2007 9:09 pm (#1816 of 1858)
I was sorry that Ginny didn't have a larger role in the final book. Harry was so worried for her safety that he protected her rather than allowing her to be a partner. But she wasn't a partner, he broke up with her so that he could concentrate on the task at hand. She never became a main character, the main characters were Harry, Ron, and Hermione. I think, though, that off-stage, she did a lot of cool things, with Dumbledore's Army at Hogwarts. We don't get to see a lot of her with Harry, so we really don't get a good picture of their relationship. I do like Harry/Ginny, but I would accept their relationship better had she had a larger part to play in the final book.
I like that Neville really blossomed in this book. I am sure that he found someone nice to marry that we don't know about. But considering how much he matured in the last book, why couldn't there be Neville/Luna or Neville/Ginny pairing? Of course, the author intended Ginny for Harry, and said no to Neville/Luna, but considering Neville's development, what would stand in the way of Neville/Luna getting together?
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totyle - Jul 25, 2007 9:42 pm (#1817 of 1858)
hehe..Luna-Krum anyone..?? She would have brought him down to earth...Vot is the point of being an International Quidditch player..honestly!
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 27, 2007 8:14 am (#1818 of 1858)
Luna/Krum would have been awesome, but I doubt if Krum would ever understand her father and forgive him for the argument at the wedding. Krum seems thickheaded (at times) enough to hold a grudge. If you can't get along with Mr. Lovegood, you can't wind up with Luna as I see it.
I kind of got disappointed that Jo has done a u-turn on Neville/Luna in her interviews. The Dean/Luna people were having so much fun that it seemed to me like she was taking an unneccesary swipe at them.
Ginny did a lot of cool things off stage, but always with other people. She should have had something of her own besides the birthday present scene.
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Puck - Jul 28, 2007 1:03 pm (#1819 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Ginny, without knowing it, gave Harry the strength and motivation to keep going. He had to protect her. I found it sweet that he would watch her on the Marauders map, and she was the last thing he thought about before the AK hit him.
Still, I would have liked to see them reunite. We needed one more chapter. I don't think he was ready to go to her immediately. He was drained, physically and emotionally. They had broken up almost a year before, her brother had just died, and Harry felt the guilt. He didn't know if she was still feeling the same towards him, and probably wasn't up to having that kind of talk. I'm sure there were moments during the aftermath in the great Hall when they embraced or connected in some way. I'm sure he spoke to all the Weasley's. We just don't get to see it. (I wish we had. The one thing this book lacks is a bit of falling action.)
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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 28, 2007 11:52 pm (#1820 of 1858)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
On the predictions, I joined the Lexicon back in 2002 and my first posts on the 'shipping thread saying Harry/Ginny.
I predicted that at the point harry met his end, and intimate moment would help have courage. (little did I know that it wouldn't BE the end)
I predicted that Ginny would be pushed forward out of the background in the final book and she would have her BIG moment (wrooong, it was off-camera again, her attempt to steal the sword)
In a FFF I wrote an ending scene with ending with the word "scar", that had just Ginny and Harry together.
While I was disappointed that Ginny didn't get her big moment on camera, I was happy to see the end with Harry whole (physically and mentally) with Ginny. I had predicted together, but not whole.
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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 29, 2007 8:03 am (#1821 of 1858)
When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
The Ginny and Harry relationship was never really about Ginny. Ginny was representitive of something, a lot of somethings actually. So she did not have to fully be Harry's equal. I think that JKR did a great job of developing her throughout the series given that she was an ideal more than a person.
First, Ginny represents a connection to a real family for Harry. Harry looks into the mirror of erised and he sees a family. That is what he wants most. The family he likes more than any other is the Weasley's. They have adopted him some what, but he is still not officially a member of the family. Yet they have one daughter very near his age, and upon marriage Harry will officially be a family member. This is the reason I always knew they'd end up together. As soon as I saw Harry part of and yet a part from the Weasley family around book 2, I knew JKR gave the Weasley clan a girl child for a reason. I hope the encyclopedia JKR plans to write has a description of the wedding. Seeing Harry actually joining his symbolic family would be moving....check that, I should say symbolically joining his actual family (or a bit of both).
Ginny also represents normalcy, something else Harry longs for. Several times he describes dating her as something from someone else's life. Because it is a normal relationship, something Harry cannot have while Voldemort is around. His toher relationship with Cho was marred by the scar of Voldemort's murder of Cedric. When Harry and Ginny are together in the epilogue, it is the readers cue that Harry has achieved some measure of normalcy in his life since the defeat of Voldemort. He'll always be famous, but mostly he is a dad seeing his kids off to school. The things that Die complains of, the snogging and talk of her hair and beauty, are aspects of this normalcy. These are the things 17 year old couple do and think about. Well most 17 year old guys aren't thinking about their girlfriend's hair, but its a PG book.
Finally, Ginny represents sacrifice. There are several archetypical characteristics of a hero, and sacrifice is one of them. I write fiction as a hobby. I have a book outlined on my computer called Lessons in Heroism (bear with me, I have a point regarding Ginny/Harry). The plan is to be very up front about the conventions of fantasy heroes, and then twist them in hopefully unexpected ways. As such, the wise old mentor actually labels all of the things the hero learns as lessons. Each lesson is a archetypical characteristic of a hero (a lesson in strength, courage, conviction, etc). On my outline I have the final lesson labeled, A Lesson in Sacrifice. Heroes have to make sacrifices. They do not get the happy life. They suffer so others may live the happy lives. Frodo forever carries shadow of the ring, Luke Skywalker loses a hand, plenty of heros give their lives being heroes. Ginny is Harry's conscious sacrifice. He has suffered a lot, but Ginny is the thing Harry chooses to give up to be noble and heroic (and she calls him out for it ). It is part of the hero's journey.
So Ginny is representitive of these aspects. She was never meant to be a main character. I think that it is a credit to JKR that people notice her abscence in DH. In creating someone to fulfill these roles, we got a pretty nice character too. It mainly comes in small bits though.
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Puck - Jul 30, 2007 6:54 am (#1822 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I found it amusing that Cho would try to put the charm on for Harry in the final book. She so wants the hero, doesn't she? It was nice to see them able to at least speak again. They hadn't even looked at each other in book 6.
Well said, Wandless. I especially like the bit of Ginny representing Harry's sacrifice.
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hellocello3200 - Jul 30, 2007 3:33 pm (#1823 of 1858)
Some stuff of note for shipper's in today's interview, although I'm personally sad since I was always a bit of a closet AD/MM shipper myself...even though I thought there was more evidence against it than for it in the latter books...
Lola Victorpujebet: Was minerva in love with albus J.K. Rowling: No! Not everybody falls in love with everybody else...
but I still thought the "not everybody falls in love with everybody else..." was funny since fandom has managed to cover every possible pairing...
I don't know how I feel about JKR suggesting Neville/Luna is possible in one interview and then saying just days latter that Luna marries someone else...
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Puck - Jul 31, 2007 5:59 am (#1824 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
She also said that Luna marries later than the rest, so perhaps she and Neville date for a bit at some point....
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Finn BV - Jul 31, 2007 8:28 pm (#1825 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Well said, Wandless! I agree with what you said about noticing her absence from the book. I suppose many people overestimated her role in the action more than her role as a girlfriend/wife.
hellocello, I don't think she specifically said that Neville/Luna was "possible," but that she felt a "bit of a pull" between them. That's quite different. She noticed that they wouldn't be bad together after some of the things that happened in DH, but that eventually they weren't made for each other.
I was sad, though, to see that Dean/Luna was sunk so quickly… That's the first ship I've ever really been excited about…
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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 1, 2007 11:23 am (#1826 of 1858)
Me, too, Finn. I was sad, and I don't think there was any reason to sink it like that. It wasn't so major a plot point that ALL of the Luna shippers couldn't have sailed on. Not that most of them aren't still doing that anyway.
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Catherine - Aug 1, 2007 5:17 pm (#1827 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
I admit that I said to my hubby, "Luna and Dean will end up together" in my first go round of reading.
I don't find her explanation that Luna is a naturalist explorer type to be a problem--there is every bit of evidence that show Luna would act in such a manner.
If the series ever continues--I hope Luna finds something to validate her lifelong searches.
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hellocello3200 - Aug 2, 2007 8:49 pm (#1828 of 1858)
well, I guess Bellatrix/Voldemort shippers have something to celebrate...
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legolas returns - Aug 3, 2007 4:43 pm (#1829 of 1858)
I think that ship was a touch one sided. Voldemort did not love any beyond himself.
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The Wandless Wizard - Aug 3, 2007 9:56 pm (#1830 of 1858)
When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Yep. That is a ship with only one oar. Forever doomed to sail in circles.
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Potteraholic - Aug 4, 2007 7:23 am (#1831 of 1858)
"Plenty of courage, I see. Not a bad mind either. There's talent - and a nice thirst to prove yourself ..." (PS/SS)
I am slowly making my way through reading all the posts in this thread and the one before it, closed since 2004. I started doing this when I finished DH just to see how accurately our Forum HP Lexicon Forum community had pegged all the ships. I didn't realize there would be so many posts to read! But once I started reading a few, I decided it was either all or nothing.
It is interesting to see how the shipping theories evolved over time, as each new book and movie came out. Or how the arguments were sometimes cyclical, or restated by each batch of new posters. (Heaven knows, nobody wants to be redundant, but there are only so many previous posts one can read/research before wanting to post one's own ideas.) It was also interesting to see how heated the debates became and to read about unlikely 'snowball's chance' pairings (by some posters' estimates) that actually came true in DH.
But it doesn't look like the shipping debates will end just because we have book 7. There are still plenty of witches and wizards not accounted for.
Let the matchmaking continue!
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hellocello3200 - Aug 4, 2007 10:39 am (#1832 of 1858)
I agree it was one sided as far as genuine affection goes. I don't think anyone could have expected otherwise, that's why I said "something"... You'd have to be pretty screwy IMHO to find someone who resembles a snake attractive.
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Puck - Aug 4, 2007 10:54 am (#1833 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I like the idea of George marrying the muggle girl in the village who thinks his tricks are "like real magic". Jo said he named a son Fred.
SO, who pops the question? Ron or Hermione? She had to be the one to initiate that kiss, perhaps she had o propsed, too.
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Remi - Aug 4, 2007 12:12 pm (#1834 of 1858)
Dumbledore's woman through and through
I'm betting that "Twelve Failsafe Ways to Charm Witches" or its sequel has pointers on popping the question. Nice to know there is another book that Ron's read that Hermione hasn't.
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MickeyCee3948 - Aug 4, 2007 1:29 pm (#1835 of 1858)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Might have been "Twelve Failsafe Ways to Charm a Wizard". can't ever tell.
Mickey
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Celestina Warbeck - Aug 5, 2007 3:24 am (#1836 of 1858)
I would love it if Ron finally did pop the question. That would be a scene to watch!!!
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Puck - Aug 5, 2007 7:59 am (#1837 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
"Did you just ask me to marry you?"
"Always the tone of surprise"
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Good Evans - Aug 5, 2007 1:51 pm (#1838 of 1858)
Practically perfect in every way
LOL Puck!!!
and wouldn't it be good if she told him she needed to think about it! or maybe write a list of advantages and disadvantages in order to make up her mind!!!
However
I expect that Hermione simply advised him of the arrangements, and he sort of stammered out the question. to which she responded.. "naturally" and beamed at him. I guess that Harry was the best man?
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Soul Search - Aug 5, 2007 2:00 pm (#1839 of 1858)
Wouldn't a double wedding have been appropriate.
Molly would have been estatic ... and frantic. Arthur would have loved having Hermione's parents at the Burrow; likely drove them crazy with questions.
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Puck - Aug 5, 2007 2:45 pm (#1840 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I keeping imagining Arthur's reaction the first time he catch's Harry kissing Ginny. He's always like Harry, but that's his Little Girl.
So long as Ron didn't propose through a mouthful of food....
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Remi - Aug 5, 2007 4:26 pm (#1841 of 1858)
Dumbledore's woman through and through
Considering H-G's kids seem to be around the same age as R-H's, a double wedding sounds very likely. Sigh. Wish I had been invited ....
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 6, 2007 10:10 am (#1842 of 1858)
A double wedding involving Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione reminds me of the double wedding of Elizabeth and Jane Bennet at the conclusion of Pride and Prejudice.
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journeymom - Aug 7, 2007 10:45 pm (#1843 of 1858)
I have no doubt that Ron proposed to Hermione. In Deathly Hallows he finally stepped up and took his role as equal in their relationship.
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Good Evans - Aug 8, 2007 11:32 am (#1844 of 1858)
Practically perfect in every way
well - I am not so sure about early marriage, certainly there were no kids right off for either of them, so why rush in to marriage? There was no threat and war pending anymore. I can see that they maybe had a proper "courtship" esp R and H - who have only just acknowledged their feelings. Ron hasn't even met Hermione's parents properly. - maybe I am just a bit old fashioned? But I see them all finishing school, Ginny going off the the Harpies, Ron and Harry starting Auror training and Hermione going to the ministry. Staying together and then maybe a couple of years later tying the knots (respectively,) maybe together may not! Nothing wrong with a nice engagement, I can see Ron wanting to be at work and not let Hermione support him, its a pride thing, she overshadows him quite enough - I think one more thing like her supporting him whle he studies may just be abit too much.
just my thoughts anyway
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Elaine2005 - Aug 8, 2007 9:29 pm (#1845 of 1858)
I agree. I doubt that either couple rushed to marriage. With the length of time it took Ron and Hermione to even acknowledge how they felt about each other, a quick marriage would be way out of character for them.
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The Viking - Aug 9, 2007 7:34 am (#1846 of 1858)
Who said that anyone popped the question?
There are people that live together for life and have kids, but never marry.
Not everyone likes it, but it does happen..
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Catherine - Aug 9, 2007 3:51 pm (#1847 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
There are people that live together for life and have kids, but never marry. --The Viking
This is true, but for the most part, JKR's world of wizards shows married couples. It is perfectly expected that Ron and Hermione would be married.
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Finn BV - Aug 9, 2007 6:51 pm (#1848 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Very true, Catherine, but to top it all off with a citation: Jo told Meredith in the set of Today show interviews.
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Muggle Doctor - Oct 23, 2007 6:55 am (#1849 of 1858)
And now we have the formalized, official relationship of Hannah Abbott and Neville Longbottom to discuss...
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rambkowalczyk - Dec 30, 2007 11:04 am (#1850 of 1858)
I noticed in JKR's family tree. (behind the door on her website) that Draco is not married to Pansy. There was a Daphne Greengrass who was sorted into Slytherin in book one. Is this a younger sister?
I wonder what turned Draco off to Pansy or Pansy off to Draco?
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Liz Mann - Jan 1, 2008 2:04 pm (#1851 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Maybe after he reformed he saw Pansy for what she was.
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azi - Jan 1, 2008 2:20 pm (#1852 of 1858)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
Pansy may have decided she didn't like Draco. During DH, Draco was weak and doubting whether Voldemort was the right way, while Pansy appears to have been the opposite (the one time we saw her anyway - when she shouted that they could hand over Harry in the Great Hall). Draco may not have lived up to her expectations - remember his boasting on the train in HBP? Pansy seemed impressed at Draco then, but when she saw that he wasn't quite as brave and strong in his beliefs as he said, she may have decided it just wasn't going to work.
I like the idea that Draco decided Pansy wasn't his type though. There's always hope he learnt something from this experience.
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haymoni - Oct 18, 2008 12:49 pm (#1853 of 1858)
Pehaps Pansy landed Blaise.
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journeymom - Oct 20, 2008 8:55 am (#1854 of 1858)
Ah, Blaise. Such a disappointment.
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Denise P. - Oct 20, 2008 2:54 pm (#1855 of 1858)
Ravenclaw Pony
People had such high hopes for Blaise.
I am glad Draco didn't end up with Pansy.
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legolas returns - Oct 20, 2008 2:56 pm (#1856 of 1858)
Wouldnt Blaise want to carry on the family tradition of marrying for money?
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haymoni - Oct 21, 2008 4:52 pm (#1857 of 1858)
Perhaps all those stepfathers turned him off to that.
We really don't know enough about Pansy. "Parkinson" never sounded "wizardy" enough for me, but I can't imagine Draco taking out someone who wasn't a pureblood.
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PeskyPixie - Oct 29, 2008 9:49 am (#1858 of 1858)
Isn't Blaise supposed to be really good-looking? I think he'd be a prize for Pansy but wouldn't want her unless there was something in it for him.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Can you imagine it? Inner Circle turn up, expecting an easy win, then synchronised stunning curses from everyone in attendance. The DES would be dead, in all likelihood. Certainly they would have horrific casualty figures.
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Finn BV - Jul 23, 2007 11:28 am (#1802 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Well, I've never been much of a shipper, but I was really thrilled to set sail on Luna/Dean in this book. You really had to read between the lines to pick up on it. These are the clues I found:
Luna and Dean both spent some time together at Shell Cottage (Bill and Fleur's) (DH25). The only other people around were HRH, who were off making plans with Griphook; Ollivander left, I believe, a few days after their arrival, and Bill and Fleur. Luna and Dean probably got to know each other then.
US edition, p. 604, DH30, as people come poring through the Hog's Head/Room of Requirement passageway: "Come on, Luna," Dean called as he passed, holding out his free hand; she took it and followed him back up the stairs."
Both are artists: Dean we know from p. 184 (US edition) (P/SS11), when he draws a poster for the first Quidditch match; Luna we know from the drawings on her bedroom ceiling of HRH, Ginny and Neville (p. 417, US, DH21). Plus, Luna I believe made her turnip earrings which she wore in OP.
This might be a bit of a stretch, but Dean used to date Ginny, who became a good friend of Luna; perhaps Dean just went down the line after Ginny broke up with him?
Anyway, this was a really delightful part of DH!
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Mrs Figg - Jul 23, 2007 1:41 pm (#1803 of 1858)
Finn BV
I can't say that I picked up on it while reading but with re-reading the aforementioned sections I could see a Luna-Dean ship setting sail.
On another note...
At the end of book 7 in the epilogue when Teddy Lupin is snogging some girl Victoire and they discuss him becoming officially related to the Potters, I assume Victoire must be the daughter of Bill and Fleur? Does anyone else agree/disagree? Also I wonder what the main characters respective careers were? Hermione (Healer?), Ron and Harry (Aurors or something else in the ministry?), and Ginny (stay at home Mom?)
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Denise P. - Jul 23, 2007 1:45 pm (#1804 of 1858)
Ravenclaw Pony
Well, we know she is a Weasley cousin, since it says "our cousin" We can rule out Ginny, we can rule out Ron immediately. We can assume it is not Percy since he is quoting broomstick regulations rather than worrying about his daughter playing tonsil hockey with Teddy on a public platform. That only leaves George and Bill. Based on the spelling of her name, it is incredibly probably that she is Bill and Fleur's daughter. I guess she could be Charlie's but I doubt it.
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Finn BV - Jul 23, 2007 2:22 pm (#1805 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
I think you've got to assume it's Bill and Fleur's because of the French name. That was cute though – both children of werewolves/semi-werewolves.
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totyle - Jul 23, 2007 9:56 pm (#1806 of 1858)
I think we need to give what's due to all those who so rightly predicted that we wont actually get to see that much of Ginny apart from as the price for the hero...I liked the fact that the trio remained the trio very much...and the way everybody turned up in the end was wonderful so I didnt miss Ginny at all...only after having finished the book I realised that Ginny's character having been developed in HBP was all there was...H/G did end up together but it wasnt really a BIG thing which actually was IMO brilliant as I couldnt have tolerated another HBP like page after page of shipping issues. It seems that first half of HBP did away with a lot of the minor shipping issues so the later part of HBP and the final book could concentrate on the real story.
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Luna Logic - Jul 25, 2007 12:35 am (#1807 of 1858)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Yes Ginny seems in the second half of DH only a little girl again, having to be protected by adults...
Concerning the young married couples : he young woman who is in the final battle, Tonks, died.
Fleur, who stays in her cottage, lives.
I don't know what to do of that...
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Potteraholic - Jul 25, 2007 9:09 am (#1808 of 1858)
"Plenty of courage, I see. Not a bad mind either. There's talent - and a nice thirst to prove yourself ..." (PS/SS)
Re: Hermione and Ron
Don't know if this has been mentioned before - started reading the 'shipping posts to research it (both archived and current ones, but there are 1,000s!) - so I apologize if this has already been discussed.
Have only read DH once and rather then reread it immediately, have decided to read all the books again in order from Year 1 to Year 7. Have not reread the books like this before; always reread particular books out of sequence for specific reasons having to do with researching theories, getting ready to watch a particular movie, etc. Now want to see where Jo laid the foundation for things that came up in HBP and DH and read Harry's tale as one long, uninterrupted narrative.
When I read about the troll in the dungeon in PS/SS, when the trio become hard and fast friends, I noticed that even though it was Harry who remembered that Hermione was left behind and wanted to get her, and even though it was Harry who jumped on the troll's back and stuck his wand up its nose, it was Ron who said the spell Wingardium Leviosa that actually saved Hermione by making the troll's club drop on his head.
Remember how he learned that spell, partnered up with Hermione in Flitwick's Charms class, rolling his eyes at hearing Hermione's instruction on the correct pronunciation of the charm and where to put the stress? And how he said those mean things at the end of class that she overheard that made her run off crying?
Well, he obviously was paying attention to her and learned how to do the charm properly, unbeknownst to him, and his attention helped save her from the troll. And it was what helped form the trio's friendship.
"But from that moment on, Hermione Granger became their friend. There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other, and knocking out a twelve-foot mountain troll is one of them."(This passage has always been one of my favorite passages from the 1st book.)
I guess what I'm saying is, it seems Ron seemed to have been attuned to or receptive to Hermione in some way, without his even realizing it, right from the start.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 25, 2007 9:18 am (#1809 of 1858)
Ventures in, for what will probably be one of the last times...
Okay, with H/G, can anyone tell me where in DH she was Harry's equal, because I STILL don't get it. She helped, when she was allowed to or could, but she didn't do anything anyone else didn't do. And I thought she was pretty insecure still being jealous of Gabrielle and Cho, and thinking she had to snog Harry like firewhisky for him to remember her. I would have thought by then she'd have faith he'd remember her.
A scene between them after the battle, or him at least comforting her for a moment after Fred's death would have gone along way to help, but no, Harry doesn't think of her feelings or her loyalty, or her wit in this book. He thinks of her snogging and her hair mostly, as usual. She was NOT especially powerful in this book, that I could see. I think her character got shafted.
And also, can someone tellme what the POINT of Remus/Tonks was? I like the pairing, but it seemed pretty pointless, unless it was simply to make Andromeda the next generation's Gran Longbottom. Tonks moons after him, she gets him, gets pregnant, he regrets it all, and they die. Whoop-de-do. We needed that WHY? I'm bitter about that, because I think it could have been done so much better.
And as for ships...did I miss it? Who did Draco finally marry? Not Pansy, I hope! I used to love that ship, but she was a twit as I see it.
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Luna Logic - Jul 25, 2007 9:24 am (#1810 of 1858)
from the other side (of the Channel)
Edited by Jul 25, 2007 9:27 am
I agree with you, Die Z, Ginny's character didn't keep the promises it had (for me!); the Ginny/Harry's story began well in DH but came to nothing worth to read in the end (I don't count the epilogue!); and the story of Tonks and Lupin was not a very pleasant one to read...
That left... Bill and Fleur, Hermione and Ron, Luna and Dean, then Drago and... (Why not Pansy, because they called their son Scorpius!)
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legolas returns - Jul 25, 2007 11:20 am (#1811 of 1858)
I am pretty sure that Draco did not marry Pansy especially after her performance in the Great Hall-Harry/Ron would have passed negative comment on Dracos wife. When I first read the name Scorpius I thought about getting stung by a Scorpion-Draco/his family made the wrong choices and his family got stung by Voldemort.
Harry/Ginny-I think he could not bear to comfort her because he was so wracked with guilt over the people that died for him. He had to complete his tasks before getting rid of Voldemort. He was kind of too busy saving the world-Ginny understood this. Once the world was safe I think he needed time to sort out his thoughts-he was still guilt ridden and had had to deal with everybodies grief/celebrations when he wanted quiet time with the people important to him. He knew Ginny would still be there in the future. All the same by this time a little bit of comfort would have gone a long way.
I agree that the Lupin/Tonks was not pleasant to read. Lupin did go back to Tonks after Harry gave him grief. When the baby was born Lupin did seemed incredibly pleased. They had even less time than Harry had with his parents. I get the feeling that Lupin felt duty bound to go into battle regardless of his parenting duties. Tonks could not bear to have him in battle and not know what was happening to him-hence the reason she followed him.
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Sticky Glue - Jul 25, 2007 3:22 pm (#1812 of 1858)
I also have to admit that I was a little disapointed in Ginny's development in this book. But someone else on this forum (sorry can't remember where or who) commented that is seems like JKR tried to get most of the ships set and delt with at the beginning of HBP so that the rest of HBP and this book could get on with the main plot and story. That sort of made sense to me.
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Steve Newton - Jul 25, 2007 5:54 pm (#1813 of 1858)
Librarian
It makes sense but is still disappointing. I think that she needs to write a book about the happenings at Hogwarts during the year. It would be quite exciting. Neville and Ginny leading the revolt, Aberforth's aid, Snape trying to help while looking evil, the Carrows and their nastiness, the professors trying to carry on. Sigh.
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totyle - Jul 25, 2007 6:09 pm (#1814 of 1858)
Edited by Catherine Jul 26, 2007 6:54 am
He he..that was me Sticky glue...
The only ship that really mattered to me in the series was Ron and Hermione's ship..and that was wonderfully handled...everything else for me wasnt particularly interesting to ship about..
One thing that bugged me was, I know Ginny's the youngest so I guess the males around her were being very protective saying she had to stay put as she was underage etc..but what about Luna? Isnt Luna underage too...she's in Ginny's year isnt she but there was no one for her..no one to tell her to stay..you're underage..
Luna's character was wonderful, she was a true frind to the end...understanding Harry without needing any words from him. Who cares about 'love'ships when friendship is developed this way..I loved everything about Luna in this book, her wit, her gentleness, her insight into Harry's mind...simply loved her.
Edited to remove the word "u're" and to capitalize the letter "I." Please do not use Netspeak on the Forum.--Catherine
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 25, 2007 6:59 pm (#1815 of 1858)
Luna wasn't neccesarily under age. We still don't know when her birthday is. She could have had a birthday before Ginny. But yes, she was wonderful to everyone in this book. I ship her Harry/Luna, Dean/Luna, Neville/Luna...you name it. Anyone who got her would be a lucky person. Look how she cheered up and ministered to everyone when she was kidnapped.
I find the comment that Harry knew Ginny would still be there in the future kind of demeaning, actually. She's been waiting for him to have the time and inclination to pay attention to her since she was ten, however, so of course, what's a bit longer?
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Elaine2005 - Jul 25, 2007 9:09 pm (#1816 of 1858)
I was sorry that Ginny didn't have a larger role in the final book. Harry was so worried for her safety that he protected her rather than allowing her to be a partner. But she wasn't a partner, he broke up with her so that he could concentrate on the task at hand. She never became a main character, the main characters were Harry, Ron, and Hermione. I think, though, that off-stage, she did a lot of cool things, with Dumbledore's Army at Hogwarts. We don't get to see a lot of her with Harry, so we really don't get a good picture of their relationship. I do like Harry/Ginny, but I would accept their relationship better had she had a larger part to play in the final book.
I like that Neville really blossomed in this book. I am sure that he found someone nice to marry that we don't know about. But considering how much he matured in the last book, why couldn't there be Neville/Luna or Neville/Ginny pairing? Of course, the author intended Ginny for Harry, and said no to Neville/Luna, but considering Neville's development, what would stand in the way of Neville/Luna getting together?
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totyle - Jul 25, 2007 9:42 pm (#1817 of 1858)
hehe..Luna-Krum anyone..?? She would have brought him down to earth...Vot is the point of being an International Quidditch player..honestly!
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 27, 2007 8:14 am (#1818 of 1858)
Luna/Krum would have been awesome, but I doubt if Krum would ever understand her father and forgive him for the argument at the wedding. Krum seems thickheaded (at times) enough to hold a grudge. If you can't get along with Mr. Lovegood, you can't wind up with Luna as I see it.
I kind of got disappointed that Jo has done a u-turn on Neville/Luna in her interviews. The Dean/Luna people were having so much fun that it seemed to me like she was taking an unneccesary swipe at them.
Ginny did a lot of cool things off stage, but always with other people. She should have had something of her own besides the birthday present scene.
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Puck - Jul 28, 2007 1:03 pm (#1819 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Ginny, without knowing it, gave Harry the strength and motivation to keep going. He had to protect her. I found it sweet that he would watch her on the Marauders map, and she was the last thing he thought about before the AK hit him.
Still, I would have liked to see them reunite. We needed one more chapter. I don't think he was ready to go to her immediately. He was drained, physically and emotionally. They had broken up almost a year before, her brother had just died, and Harry felt the guilt. He didn't know if she was still feeling the same towards him, and probably wasn't up to having that kind of talk. I'm sure there were moments during the aftermath in the great Hall when they embraced or connected in some way. I'm sure he spoke to all the Weasley's. We just don't get to see it. (I wish we had. The one thing this book lacks is a bit of falling action.)
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Mrs. Sirius - Jul 28, 2007 11:52 pm (#1820 of 1858)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
On the predictions, I joined the Lexicon back in 2002 and my first posts on the 'shipping thread saying Harry/Ginny.
I predicted that at the point harry met his end, and intimate moment would help have courage. (little did I know that it wouldn't BE the end)
I predicted that Ginny would be pushed forward out of the background in the final book and she would have her BIG moment (wrooong, it was off-camera again, her attempt to steal the sword)
In a FFF I wrote an ending scene with ending with the word "scar", that had just Ginny and Harry together.
While I was disappointed that Ginny didn't get her big moment on camera, I was happy to see the end with Harry whole (physically and mentally) with Ginny. I had predicted together, but not whole.
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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 29, 2007 8:03 am (#1821 of 1858)
When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
The Ginny and Harry relationship was never really about Ginny. Ginny was representitive of something, a lot of somethings actually. So she did not have to fully be Harry's equal. I think that JKR did a great job of developing her throughout the series given that she was an ideal more than a person.
First, Ginny represents a connection to a real family for Harry. Harry looks into the mirror of erised and he sees a family. That is what he wants most. The family he likes more than any other is the Weasley's. They have adopted him some what, but he is still not officially a member of the family. Yet they have one daughter very near his age, and upon marriage Harry will officially be a family member. This is the reason I always knew they'd end up together. As soon as I saw Harry part of and yet a part from the Weasley family around book 2, I knew JKR gave the Weasley clan a girl child for a reason. I hope the encyclopedia JKR plans to write has a description of the wedding. Seeing Harry actually joining his symbolic family would be moving....check that, I should say symbolically joining his actual family (or a bit of both).
Ginny also represents normalcy, something else Harry longs for. Several times he describes dating her as something from someone else's life. Because it is a normal relationship, something Harry cannot have while Voldemort is around. His toher relationship with Cho was marred by the scar of Voldemort's murder of Cedric. When Harry and Ginny are together in the epilogue, it is the readers cue that Harry has achieved some measure of normalcy in his life since the defeat of Voldemort. He'll always be famous, but mostly he is a dad seeing his kids off to school. The things that Die complains of, the snogging and talk of her hair and beauty, are aspects of this normalcy. These are the things 17 year old couple do and think about. Well most 17 year old guys aren't thinking about their girlfriend's hair, but its a PG book.
Finally, Ginny represents sacrifice. There are several archetypical characteristics of a hero, and sacrifice is one of them. I write fiction as a hobby. I have a book outlined on my computer called Lessons in Heroism (bear with me, I have a point regarding Ginny/Harry). The plan is to be very up front about the conventions of fantasy heroes, and then twist them in hopefully unexpected ways. As such, the wise old mentor actually labels all of the things the hero learns as lessons. Each lesson is a archetypical characteristic of a hero (a lesson in strength, courage, conviction, etc). On my outline I have the final lesson labeled, A Lesson in Sacrifice. Heroes have to make sacrifices. They do not get the happy life. They suffer so others may live the happy lives. Frodo forever carries shadow of the ring, Luke Skywalker loses a hand, plenty of heros give their lives being heroes. Ginny is Harry's conscious sacrifice. He has suffered a lot, but Ginny is the thing Harry chooses to give up to be noble and heroic (and she calls him out for it ). It is part of the hero's journey.
So Ginny is representitive of these aspects. She was never meant to be a main character. I think that it is a credit to JKR that people notice her abscence in DH. In creating someone to fulfill these roles, we got a pretty nice character too. It mainly comes in small bits though.
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Puck - Jul 30, 2007 6:54 am (#1822 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I found it amusing that Cho would try to put the charm on for Harry in the final book. She so wants the hero, doesn't she? It was nice to see them able to at least speak again. They hadn't even looked at each other in book 6.
Well said, Wandless. I especially like the bit of Ginny representing Harry's sacrifice.
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hellocello3200 - Jul 30, 2007 3:33 pm (#1823 of 1858)
Some stuff of note for shipper's in today's interview, although I'm personally sad since I was always a bit of a closet AD/MM shipper myself...even though I thought there was more evidence against it than for it in the latter books...
Lola Victorpujebet: Was minerva in love with albus J.K. Rowling: No! Not everybody falls in love with everybody else...
but I still thought the "not everybody falls in love with everybody else..." was funny since fandom has managed to cover every possible pairing...
I don't know how I feel about JKR suggesting Neville/Luna is possible in one interview and then saying just days latter that Luna marries someone else...
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Puck - Jul 31, 2007 5:59 am (#1824 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
She also said that Luna marries later than the rest, so perhaps she and Neville date for a bit at some point....
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Finn BV - Jul 31, 2007 8:28 pm (#1825 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Well said, Wandless! I agree with what you said about noticing her absence from the book. I suppose many people overestimated her role in the action more than her role as a girlfriend/wife.
hellocello, I don't think she specifically said that Neville/Luna was "possible," but that she felt a "bit of a pull" between them. That's quite different. She noticed that they wouldn't be bad together after some of the things that happened in DH, but that eventually they weren't made for each other.
I was sad, though, to see that Dean/Luna was sunk so quickly… That's the first ship I've ever really been excited about…
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Die Zimtzicke - Aug 1, 2007 11:23 am (#1826 of 1858)
Me, too, Finn. I was sad, and I don't think there was any reason to sink it like that. It wasn't so major a plot point that ALL of the Luna shippers couldn't have sailed on. Not that most of them aren't still doing that anyway.
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Catherine - Aug 1, 2007 5:17 pm (#1827 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
I admit that I said to my hubby, "Luna and Dean will end up together" in my first go round of reading.
I don't find her explanation that Luna is a naturalist explorer type to be a problem--there is every bit of evidence that show Luna would act in such a manner.
If the series ever continues--I hope Luna finds something to validate her lifelong searches.
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hellocello3200 - Aug 2, 2007 8:49 pm (#1828 of 1858)
well, I guess Bellatrix/Voldemort shippers have something to celebrate...
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legolas returns - Aug 3, 2007 4:43 pm (#1829 of 1858)
I think that ship was a touch one sided. Voldemort did not love any beyond himself.
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The Wandless Wizard - Aug 3, 2007 9:56 pm (#1830 of 1858)
When wands are outlawed, only outlaws will have wands.
Yep. That is a ship with only one oar. Forever doomed to sail in circles.
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Potteraholic - Aug 4, 2007 7:23 am (#1831 of 1858)
"Plenty of courage, I see. Not a bad mind either. There's talent - and a nice thirst to prove yourself ..." (PS/SS)
I am slowly making my way through reading all the posts in this thread and the one before it, closed since 2004. I started doing this when I finished DH just to see how accurately our Forum HP Lexicon Forum community had pegged all the ships. I didn't realize there would be so many posts to read! But once I started reading a few, I decided it was either all or nothing.
It is interesting to see how the shipping theories evolved over time, as each new book and movie came out. Or how the arguments were sometimes cyclical, or restated by each batch of new posters. (Heaven knows, nobody wants to be redundant, but there are only so many previous posts one can read/research before wanting to post one's own ideas.) It was also interesting to see how heated the debates became and to read about unlikely 'snowball's chance' pairings (by some posters' estimates) that actually came true in DH.
But it doesn't look like the shipping debates will end just because we have book 7. There are still plenty of witches and wizards not accounted for.
Let the matchmaking continue!
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hellocello3200 - Aug 4, 2007 10:39 am (#1832 of 1858)
I agree it was one sided as far as genuine affection goes. I don't think anyone could have expected otherwise, that's why I said "something"... You'd have to be pretty screwy IMHO to find someone who resembles a snake attractive.
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Puck - Aug 4, 2007 10:54 am (#1833 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I like the idea of George marrying the muggle girl in the village who thinks his tricks are "like real magic". Jo said he named a son Fred.
SO, who pops the question? Ron or Hermione? She had to be the one to initiate that kiss, perhaps she had o propsed, too.
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Remi - Aug 4, 2007 12:12 pm (#1834 of 1858)
Dumbledore's woman through and through
I'm betting that "Twelve Failsafe Ways to Charm Witches" or its sequel has pointers on popping the question.
Nice to know there is another book that Ron's read that Hermione hasn't. - - - - - - - - - -
MickeyCee3948 - Aug 4, 2007 1:29 pm (#1835 of 1858)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
Might have been "Twelve Failsafe Ways to Charm a Wizard". can't ever tell.
Mickey
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Celestina Warbeck - Aug 5, 2007 3:24 am (#1836 of 1858)
I would love it if Ron finally did pop the question. That would be a scene to watch!!!
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Puck - Aug 5, 2007 7:59 am (#1837 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
"Did you just ask me to marry you?"
"Always the tone of surprise"
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Good Evans - Aug 5, 2007 1:51 pm (#1838 of 1858)
Practically perfect in every way
LOL Puck!!!
and wouldn't it be good if she told him she needed to think about it! or maybe write a list of advantages and disadvantages in order to make up her mind!!!
However
I expect that Hermione simply advised him of the arrangements, and he sort of stammered out the question. to which she responded.. "naturally" and beamed at him. I guess that Harry was the best man?
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Soul Search - Aug 5, 2007 2:00 pm (#1839 of 1858)
Wouldn't a double wedding have been appropriate.
Molly would have been estatic ... and frantic. Arthur would have loved having Hermione's parents at the Burrow; likely drove them crazy with questions.
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Puck - Aug 5, 2007 2:45 pm (#1840 of 1858)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
I keeping imagining Arthur's reaction the first time he catch's Harry kissing Ginny. He's always like Harry, but that's his Little Girl.
So long as Ron didn't propose through a mouthful of food....
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Remi - Aug 5, 2007 4:26 pm (#1841 of 1858)
Dumbledore's woman through and through
Considering H-G's kids seem to be around the same age as R-H's, a double wedding sounds very likely. Sigh. Wish I had been invited ....
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 6, 2007 10:10 am (#1842 of 1858)
A double wedding involving Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione reminds me of the double wedding of Elizabeth and Jane Bennet at the conclusion of Pride and Prejudice.
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journeymom - Aug 7, 2007 10:45 pm (#1843 of 1858)
I have no doubt that Ron proposed to Hermione. In Deathly Hallows he finally stepped up and took his role as equal in their relationship.
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Good Evans - Aug 8, 2007 11:32 am (#1844 of 1858)
Practically perfect in every way
well - I am not so sure about early marriage, certainly there were no kids right off for either of them, so why rush in to marriage? There was no threat and war pending anymore. I can see that they maybe had a proper "courtship" esp R and H - who have only just acknowledged their feelings. Ron hasn't even met Hermione's parents properly. - maybe I am just a bit old fashioned? But I see them all finishing school, Ginny going off the the Harpies, Ron and Harry starting Auror training and Hermione going to the ministry. Staying together and then maybe a couple of years later tying the knots (respectively,) maybe together may not! Nothing wrong with a nice engagement, I can see Ron wanting to be at work and not let Hermione support him, its a pride thing, she overshadows him quite enough - I think one more thing like her supporting him whle he studies may just be abit too much.
just my thoughts anyway
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Elaine2005 - Aug 8, 2007 9:29 pm (#1845 of 1858)
I agree. I doubt that either couple rushed to marriage. With the length of time it took Ron and Hermione to even acknowledge how they felt about each other, a quick marriage would be way out of character for them.
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The Viking - Aug 9, 2007 7:34 am (#1846 of 1858)
Who said that anyone popped the question?
There are people that live together for life and have kids, but never marry.
Not everyone likes it, but it does happen..
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Catherine - Aug 9, 2007 3:51 pm (#1847 of 1858)
Canon Seeker
There are people that live together for life and have kids, but never marry. --The Viking
This is true, but for the most part, JKR's world of wizards shows married couples. It is perfectly expected that Ron and Hermione would be married.
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Finn BV - Aug 9, 2007 6:51 pm (#1848 of 1858)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
Very true, Catherine, but to top it all off with a citation: Jo told Meredith in the set of Today show interviews.
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Muggle Doctor - Oct 23, 2007 6:55 am (#1849 of 1858)
And now we have the formalized, official relationship of Hannah Abbott and Neville Longbottom to discuss...
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rambkowalczyk - Dec 30, 2007 11:04 am (#1850 of 1858)
I noticed in JKR's family tree. (behind the door on her website) that Draco is not married to Pansy. There was a Daphne Greengrass who was sorted into Slytherin in book one. Is this a younger sister?
I wonder what turned Draco off to Pansy or Pansy off to Draco?
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Liz Mann - Jan 1, 2008 2:04 pm (#1851 of 1858)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Maybe after he reformed he saw Pansy for what she was.
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azi - Jan 1, 2008 2:20 pm (#1852 of 1858)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
Pansy may have decided she didn't like Draco. During DH, Draco was weak and doubting whether Voldemort was the right way, while Pansy appears to have been the opposite (the one time we saw her anyway - when she shouted that they could hand over Harry in the Great Hall). Draco may not have lived up to her expectations - remember his boasting on the train in HBP? Pansy seemed impressed at Draco then, but when she saw that he wasn't quite as brave and strong in his beliefs as he said, she may have decided it just wasn't going to work.
I like the idea that Draco decided Pansy wasn't his type though. There's always hope he learnt something from this experience.
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haymoni - Oct 18, 2008 12:49 pm (#1853 of 1858)
Pehaps Pansy landed Blaise.
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journeymom - Oct 20, 2008 8:55 am (#1854 of 1858)
Ah, Blaise. Such a disappointment.
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Denise P. - Oct 20, 2008 2:54 pm (#1855 of 1858)
Ravenclaw Pony
People had such high hopes for Blaise.
I am glad Draco didn't end up with Pansy.
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legolas returns - Oct 20, 2008 2:56 pm (#1856 of 1858)
Wouldnt Blaise want to carry on the family tradition of marrying for money?
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haymoni - Oct 21, 2008 4:52 pm (#1857 of 1858)
Perhaps all those stepfathers turned him off to that.
We really don't know enough about Pansy. "Parkinson" never sounded "wizardy" enough for me, but I can't imagine Draco taking out someone who wasn't a pureblood.
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PeskyPixie - Oct 29, 2008 9:49 am (#1858 of 1858)
Isn't Blaise supposed to be really good-looking? I think he'd be a prize for Pansy but wouldn't want her unless there was something in it for him.
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