The Forest Conversation: What Did Dumbledore Ask Snape To Do?

Lady Arabella Wed May 25, 2011 8:50 pm

The following is an archive of material originally posted on the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum, hosted by World Crossing, which ceased operations on April 15, 2011

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Lady Arabella Wed May 25, 2011 8:56 pm

The Forest conversation: What did Dumbledore ask Snape to do?

T Brightwater - Oct 26, 2005 10:22 am
Edited by Kip Carter May 21, 2007 8:12 am

This has come up on both the Snape and Dumbledore threads, and perhaps it deserves a space of its own.

Hagrid overhears an argument between Snape and DD in the Forest. "I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much for granted an' maybe he – Snape – didn' wan' ter do it anymore...anyway, Dumbledore told him flat out he'd agreed ter do it an' that was all there was to it. Pretty firm with him. An' then he said something abou' Snape makin' investigations in his own House, in Slytherin."

Many people have said that this doesn't sound like DD is asking Snape to sacrifice himself by breaking his Unbreakable Vow, and I agree. It also doesn't sound like the way DD would tell Snape that he had to fulfill his Vow and kill him.

Did Snape want to stop spying on Voldemort? Why, all of a sudden? And, if there's some good reason he wants out, why would DD be "pretty firm" with him? Seems he'd be more likely to try to calm him down and explain how important it is, rather than flat out tell him he had to keep doing it.

This makes me think that it is something that Snape is reluctant to do but is not crucial to the Order's war against Voldemort. Something personal, perhaps.

Here's my theory: Dumbledore wanted Snape to tell Harry that he, Snape, was the one who overheard the prophecy and told LV about it, and maybe even <gasp!> apologize.

This is something Snape would find extremely unpleasant and might object to as unnecessary. DD is probably sick of getting stuck in the middle between Harry and Snape, and wants Snape to take the initiative so that he can get things sorted out with Harry, since Harry's suspicions about Snape are getting in his way.

DD gave Harry the "homework" of getting the memory from Slughorn; perhaps this is Snape's homework.

When Harry comes into DD's office after just having discovered it from Trelawney, DD goes white because Harry was supposed to have heard this from Snape a while ago and dealt with it to some extent. This is exactly the reaction and the scene DD was trying to prevent.

Does this sound plausible to anyone else?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

CatherineHermiona - Oct 26, 2005 10:40 am (#1 of 236)

This thread is the one I waited! I read that before Snape killed DD, DD said: "Snape, please........". My mum said that it could mean anything. It could mean: "Snape, please, don't kill me!" or "Snape. please, watch after Harry!" or "Snape, please, do what we agreed!" or even "Snape, please, kill me!". The last one, hardly, but still.

Kate

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Oct 26, 2005 10:43 am (#2 of 236)

I would love to think that Snape was telling Dumbledore he was tired to having to seem to be the "bad guy" and he didn't want to do it anymore. Am I just dreaming here? LOL

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

CatherineHermiona - Oct 26, 2005 11:05 am (#3 of 236)

You mean like he is gentle, good soul?! Are you sure you mean Snape? I can't imagine Snape being gentle.

Kate

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Oct 26, 2005 11:29 am (#4 of 236)

No....LOL Not exactly Mr. Kind and Gentle, but maybe he is just tired of everyone thinking he is the bad guy and looking down on him and being suspicious.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Brightwater - Oct 26, 2005 12:04 pm (#5 of 236)

Kate, I'm not sure that what DD and Snape were talking about in the Forest is the same thing that DD was asking on top of the Tower.

Choices, I can see Snape being sick of seeming to be the bad guy all the time, but it's rather necessary to his cover. If he gives that up, how long would it take for him to end up like Regulus and Karkaroff?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Finn BV - Oct 26, 2005 1:49 pm (#6 of 236)

I doubt Snape would meet a similar end to Regulus and Igor.

At the moment, I think Snape's getting tired of the Vow, actually, and DD is telling him to continue on with it. Unfortunately, DD doesn't know what Draco has to do, just that Snape has to help him. That's where I stood at my inital read and I am like that right now.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Muggle Doctor - Oct 26, 2005 2:25 pm (#7 of 236)

I was, but now am not, sure that Dumbledore ordered Snape to kill him, i.e. that he foresaw what was coming. What I think he did do was make it clear that if Snape was put into a position of being obliged to either kill him or save him, that maintaining his cover came first.

This implies Dumbledore realising that if Snape, Draco or whoever was in a position to kill him, things would already be so desperate that it would make no difference. As indeed was the case; I cannot believe that a fully functional Dumbledore (one who had not drunk the potion) would allow himself to be taken so easily as he was.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Oct 26, 2005 3:29 pm (#8 of 236)

I do think that the forest conversation directly links to DD's "Severus please" on tower. I don't have book at hand so don't have exact timeline of forest conversation, but "looking to his own house" could mean Draco and his being behind the Katie/Ron stuff. We know that Draco was trying to keep Snape out of all his plans.

Not being able to do it anymore and feeling taken for granted I take to simply mean Snape's double life. DD insisting he has no choice is for his own good. He cannot back out of an Unbreakable, and Snape obviously did not go into it super-willingly. He's freaked.

So it could be that DD died or "died" a la Living Death potion just before AK curse, which is why he flew up and hovered. None of the AK's we've seen did anything except drop on the spot. So Snape didn't kill him technically. DD's eyes were closed when they found him at the bottom of the tower, again unlike all other AK victims.

For now I don't think Forest Talk has anything to do with Snape telling Harry about his role in the prophecy/Potter deaths.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Oct 26, 2005 4:06 pm (#9 of 236)
Edited Oct 26, 2005 5:10 pm

First, I don't think DD and Severus' conversation is about any new request DD made of Severus. Hagrid describes Snape as not wanting to do something anymore. That implies that he was referring either to something he'd already been doing, or something that he'd previously agreed to do. I doubt if he'd ever have agreed to apologize to Harry for anything.

I think that the conversation in the forest is a mirror of the conversation that DD had with Harry in the Cave. In the Cave, DD had a long back-and-forth conversation with Harry where he repeatedly asked Harry if he would obey his every directive, regardless what occurred. Again and again Harry pulled a "yes, but" kind of response. But again and again DD insisted that Harry do whatever he directed. He reminded Harry that Harry had agreed to do this before they left Hogwarts. Finally Harry agrees.

But then Harry found himself, in obeying DD's instructions, doing something that was so personally painful and painful to DD, it caused him to hate himself and be repulsed by his own actions.

JKR used mirroring language to describe Severus' face on the tower -- "hatred and revulsion." I tend to think that if the language mirrored the language describing Harry, then the emotions were also mirroring each other.

Now if the emotions and their descriptions were mirrors -- what about the conversation that Harry had with DD? Did it also have a mirror?

The argument that Hagrid described sounds a great deal like the conversation Harry had with DD. The biggest difference is that we don't know the topic of the argument.

Harry and Severus were both engaged in actions that were causing DD apparent harm or pain. The words describing each at that moment were the same. If their emotions at the time were also mirrors, how much more likely is it that the very similar sounding argument/conversations were also mirrors?

Now that doesn't mean that the DD/Severus argument was DD requiring Severus to kill him. But if they are truly mirrors, then DD was requiring Severus to do something to DD that was personally highly distasteful or painful to Severus, and probably causing harm of some kind to DD.

Harry's and Severus' actions are mirrors. The descriptions of each are mirrors. The emotions may be mirrors. Therefore -- the conversations are also mirrors.

Sure, that's not conclusive, but that's my biggest rationale.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Oct 26, 2005 6:02 pm (#10 of 236)

I agree that Snape would never have agreed to tell Harry about the Prophesy, or apologize, so DD saying you said you would, so now you will, doesn't seem to fit that scenario.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Saracene - Oct 26, 2005 7:02 pm (#11 of 236)

Same here. Apart from sheer improbability that Snape would agree to tell Harry about the prophecy and apologize, I don't see how on earth Harry would believe Snape that he was sorry when he knows how much Snape hated his father.

Also, looking at the conversation Harry has with DD right after finding out about Snape's part in the prophecy, there's a bit when Harry asks DD, for the umpteenth time, how he can be *sure* that Snape is on their side. DD then looks as if he is making his mind up about something, and then finally he simply says that he -is- sure. I think that DD was making up his mind whether to tell Harry the whole story and in the end decided not to; probably because he didn't wish to reveal somebody else's secret.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Oct 26, 2005 7:12 pm (#12 of 236)

Saracene,

I agree. I also wonder if it could be even more than that. I think DD probably knew that if he told Harry about why he trusted Severus, it would probably get into a long somewhat complex conversation which might force DD to reveal to Harry any plans that he and Severus had. Anyway, if DD had truly planned for Harry to be at the tower and that Severus might end up AKing DD, then I don't think it was really the time for explanations. I mean, I don't think Harry would have time to process the explanations, what with horcrux hunting, before he'd be seeing Severus do something apparently Really Evil.

I guess what I mean is that if DD told him that night, the entire impact of what DD revealed might be lost before Harry really had a chance to process it. It would be better for Harry to learn it later, when he'd hopefully be ready to learn it.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Honour - Oct 26, 2005 11:39 pm (#13 of 236)

Wow! Wynnleaf your post #9 was awesome and totally logical, and better still it made sense to me! Right! one mystery solved 999,999 to go ... Smile

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

CatherineHermiona - Oct 27, 2005 1:25 am (#14 of 236)

What if DD made Unbreakable Wow with Snape? If so, which?

Kate

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Oct 27, 2005 6:51 am (#15 of 236)

Thanks Honour!

CatherineHermiona, I don't think DD would ever ask for an unbreakable vow with Severus. DD often said he trusted Severus. The reason Bellatrix and Narcissa as for the Vow is because they don't trust Severus. Trusting someone is not the same as depending upon someone to fulfill a contract because they are forced to do it.

DD didn't ask Harry for an unbreakable vow to obey his instructions on the expedition to the Cave. He had to go over and over the point that Harry had to do what he said no matter what, and Harry had a lot of "yes, but" responses before he completely agreed. But DD never asked for a Vow. Why not? He trusted Harry. DD made it very clear that he trusted Severus. I don't think he would require an unbreakable vow from anyone he trusted.

In general, I don't think DD would make an unbreakable vow with anyone. I think he has too strong a belief in personal choices to attempt to force someone's choice through a vow.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Esther Rose - Oct 27, 2005 7:05 am (#16 of 236)

Wynnleaf - It could be even deeper than that. It might be that Dumbledore would never ask for an Unbreakable vow because it was an act of ultimatum and threat. And no ultimatum, in Dumbledore's mind, is worth death.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Brightwater - Oct 27, 2005 7:30 am (#17 of 236)

wynnleaf, you are brilliant and I tip my witch's hat to you! Have a butterbeer!

Now, what was Snape supposed to investigate in his own House? If Snape told DD about Draco's task, that didn't really need investigating. Is DD trying to figure out how the necklace got to Katie? He seemed not to work out who did that until he was on top of the Tower. Or was it something else?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Oct 27, 2005 8:14 am (#18 of 236)

T Brightwater, thanks!!

What about this idea? Maybe a bit too far in left field, but...

What if "investigate your own house," doesn't mean Slytherin House, but Severus' own house at Spinner's End, where Pettigrew seems to be hanging out? Just a thought. I can't think what could be going on there, but maybe "house" doesn't mean what we automatically think it does.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Brightwater - Oct 27, 2005 9:25 am (#19 of 236)

oooh, that's very intriguing. Hagrid might have just assumed DD was talking about Snape's House at Hogwarts and added "in Slytherin" on his own.

Is Pettigrew up to something? Maybe DD thinks he's Draco's outside accomplice.

Is there more to that house than we know? Is it possible Voldemort lived there after leaving Hogwarts and DD thinks there might be a Horcrux hidden there?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Honour - Oct 27, 2005 11:30 am (#20 of 236)
Edited Oct 27, 2005 12:31 pm

OOHH Wynnleaf! your post #18 had me twitching as well, my daughter and I always thought that Peter's presence at Severus' home was suspicious and just down right weird! and, it didn't look like much fun for either Peter or Severus. Surely this must be an example of the trust between Severus and DD? Not only does DD know that Severus has a 'house guest' but he probably knows the reason why Peter is there?

I like it out here in the left field! Smile

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madame Pomfrey - Oct 27, 2005 1:05 pm (#21 of 236)
Edited Oct 27, 2005 2:19 pm

I thought that Wormtail's presence was possibly an order to keep an eye on Snape by Voldemort. Snape as much as said that no one (DE) trusts him in Spinners End. However,The DE response to Snape on the tower does not support this. They seemed to cower at the sight of him, respect him, not to mention follow his commands. It almost seems as if they expect Snape to be the next Dark Lord or the second command. I think most of us agree that Snape is on the side of good, but,sometimes I think we have been duped really badly by Snape and by Jo. What if Snape has always been for Voldemort and he only redeems himself at the end of book 7? That would be the ultimate burn, would it not?

What if Wormtail's silver hand is a horcrux made by the death of Cedric. Long shot-but it just came to me.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

deletedaccount - Oct 27, 2005 3:51 pm (#22 of 236)

I've never thought Snape was good.

Maybe Snape told and DD were arguing over finding the horcruxes. Maybe Snape told DD he didn't want to help with them anymore. Snape was telling DD he was assuming that he could get rid of them.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Saracene - Oct 27, 2005 5:14 pm (#23 of 236)

Snape does appear to have some authority over the Death Eaters who came with Draco, but I wouldn't say that they fear him or cower before him. From the way they conduct themselves, they don't appear to be terribly sharp and don't seem to belong to the upper-rank Death Eaters like Lucius, Bellatrix and Snape.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Oct 27, 2005 5:48 pm (#24 of 236)

wynnleaf- Hagrid said

An' then he said summat abou Snape makin' investigations in his House, in Slytherin...

It seems DD said Slytherin, or are you assuming Hagrid added this because he was assuming?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Oct 27, 2005 7:56 pm (#25 of 236)
Edited Oct 27, 2005 8:59 pm

An' then he said summat abou Snape makin' investigations in his House, in Slytherin. . . .
It seems DD said Slytherin, or are you assuming Hagrid added this because he was assuming? T Vrana

Well, I'm not really assuming it, because I realize this is a far less likely theory. But if Hagrid added the "in Slytherin" part in order to clarify the "in his house" part, just assuming that DD meant Slytherin House, when perhaps the only part DD said was mentioning "his house" to Severus -- well, then you'd possibly have a very different meaning to what DD really said, from what Hagrid thought he said.

Lady Arabella Wed May 25, 2011 9:06 pm

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Oct 28, 2005 10:21 am (#26 of 236)

oooo, I like the idea of looking to "his own house" being Spinner's End! That's very interesting and would bring us back there very strongly in book 7. It certainly sounds like Hagrid to assume that, sounds like something JKR would use later in a twist...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Oct 28, 2005 11:16 am (#27 of 236)
Edited Oct 28, 2005 12:17 pm

I think Dumbledore meant Slytherin because he was wanting Snape to keep an eye on Draco and the ones who were helping Draco - Crabbe and Goyle. Perhaps he wanted to know if there were others involved in the plot. I'm not sure that Dumbledore would have known that Wormtail was staying at Snape's house, unless Snape told him.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Oct 28, 2005 12:17 pm (#28 of 236)

Yes, that was my initial reaction to it as well. I don't recall whether the forest conversation happened before the scene with Draco and Snape in the classroom during xmas party, where Draco plainly tells Snape he doesn't want him prying. So that makes total sense that we've got Snape getting frazzled from trying to pin down what Draco is up to.

Also, I'm leaning toward Wormtail not being a threat to the Order, rather his time with Snape will "turn" him to being an asset to Vold's downfall.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

MWPP - Nov 2, 2005 7:29 pm (#29 of 236)

I, too, believe that DD was referring to Slytherin with the "house" comment. It never really made sense to me, though, why DD would urge snape to investigate draco, especially assuming that snape is good, he would to that on his own. While reading this thread, however, this thought just occurred to me. If DD did want to PROTECT draco, he may have been telling snape to lay off a bit, not to investigate and risk draco's discovery/life. Hagrid just said that DD said something "snape making investigations..." not whether he should or should not make them.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Brightwater - Nov 3, 2005 10:06 am (#30 of 236)

Here's another possibility - DD thinks LV may have hidden a Horcrux somewhere in Hogwarts, and the Slytherin dorm is one likely place.

The reason I don't think he's being asked to investigate Draco is that he has been doing that already - this conversation takes place after Slughorn's party.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Siva6 - Nov 6, 2005 7:38 pm (#31 of 236)

Everyone [except JKR] has forgotten a small request made to Harry by DD in the Cave; "Kill me, please". I submit that DD knew what he might be in for in the Cave, and had prepared SS for it during the conversation in the forrest. Why else would DD have imobilized Harry when DM came to the top of the tower? In DD's words, he knew he [DD] was safe because he was with Harry. DD probably knew the final outcome of his actions in the Cave, and also knew that his death was the only way to stop the greater evil. It would also gavanize Harry's powers as no other way could have.[excepting Ginny, but that would have been the power of Hate, which is LV's power]

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Nov 6, 2005 8:50 pm (#32 of 236)

Siva6 said:

Everyone (except JKR) has forgotten a small request made to Harry by DD in the Cave; "Kill me, please".

How did I ever forget that?? More and more, the conversation between DD and Harry seems to mirror the one between DD and Severus, and then the events in the Cave seem mirrored by the tower. There's no way that JKR didn't plan that mirroring for a purpose.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

deletedaccount - Nov 7, 2005 7:38 pm (#33 of 236)

There's also a sort of mirroring between Voldemort's childhood and Harry's childhood, and look how that turned out. Harry didn't kill Dumbledore, instead he was trying to help him. Snape killed DD.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Nov 8, 2005 11:26 am (#34 of 236)

Harry didn't kill Dumbledore, instead he was trying to help him. Snape killed DD.

We don't actually know that for a fact. Even under the "DD is definitely dead" viewpoint, it could easily be that the liquids that Harry force-fed DD are what killed him. He knew he was almost dead and wanted Severus to AK him.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Muggle Doctor - Nov 8, 2005 12:49 pm (#35 of 236)

Wynnleaf, I agree. It also explains in my mind why he might be setting Snape up to knock him off, especially given that the second horcrux (the ring) nearly killed him as it was. He knew he was probably going into something even more dangerous, and with the Snape/Draco Unbreakable business ("You must do it if Draco fails"), was risking a fate that nobody could undo. Therefore if he is doomed, it must be either Draco or Snape who kills him (to save Snape at the very least), and he already knows that Draco can't (bring himself to) do it.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Diagon Nilly - Nov 8, 2005 4:11 pm (#36 of 236)

I'm in love with the idea that Harry actually killed Dumbledore and Snape just hastened the process. It adds another level to JKRs implications that "evil" is contextual, and not as black and white as Harry believes.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Betelgeuse Black - Nov 9, 2005 6:37 pm (#37 of 236)

It's my viewpoint that DD froze Harry to protect him. I think the argument in the forest was about Snape going back to the Death Eaters. Snape didn't want to go back. He was tired of being the double agent. DD told him that he said he would do it and that is that. DD also knew that the DADA teacher would not last until the next year. I think DD planned Snapes departure.

Betelgeuse

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

hawick girl - Nov 9, 2005 6:51 pm (#38 of 236)

Not only to protect him, but to be the 'witness' as well. I think that it completes Harry's tutorial. It's his final lesson (although I also think that there should be some sort of memory, letter etc. that helps guide Harry)

Dumbledore's Handy Guide to Horcrux Destruction--in just a few easy steps you'll have a mortal enemy to destroy

Just Set it and forget it! (oh wait, that's Voldie's motto)

Bam! Let's Kick it up a notch!

Bam! Bam!

Sorry Ron Popeil and Emeril Lagasse also to you guys I have food shows/infomercials on my mind

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Vulture - Nov 11, 2005 8:16 am (#39 of 236)

Hagrid overhears an argument between Snape and DD in the Forest. "I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much for granted an' maybe he – Snape – didn' wan' ter do it anymore...anyway, Dumbledore told him flat out he'd agreed ter do it an' that was all there was to it. Pretty firm with him. An' then he said something abou' Snape makin' investigations in his own House, in Slytherin."

Many people have said that this doesn't sound like DD is asking Snape to sacrifice himself by breaking his Unbreakable Vow, and I agree. It also doesn't sound like the way DD would tell Snape that he had to fulfill his Vow and kill him. (T Brightwater - Oct 26, 2005 11:22 am)

I think (1) you have to bear in mind that Hagrid was trying not to listen _ so his account was rather fragmentary (so, for example, the "it" that Snape didn't want to do just might not be the "it" that Dumbledore says he (Snape) agreed to); (2) it might be best to put this conversation together with other things that we know and agree on: I'm thinking of Snape's Vow and the 'hand twitch', and of the simple fact that Snape AK'ed Dumbledore (let's not get into whether he wanted to, or whether Dumbledore is "really dead" for the umpteenth time).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Nov 11, 2005 8:59 am (#40 of 236)

Vulture and others,

We can look at the conversation in the forest for what the various intentions of the characters were, but we also have to consider what JKR's intentions were. I've pointed out before the mirroring that exists between this conversation and Severus' later actions, and the conversation Harry has with DD in the Cave and Harry's subsequent actions toward DD. Of course, the characters aren't doing this to create a mirror. But the mirror is there nevertheless. And JKR must have a reason for the mirror.

Here it is, in case you haven't noticed it all before, or seen posts on it.

Conversation/argument mirror: Severus and DD in the forest versus Harry and DD in the Cave. DD is pressing Severus and Harry to agree to something that neither seem to want to do -- both want to argue with DD about it. DD insists to both that they must follow his instructions and seems to remind both of previously agreed promises (for Harry, his previous promise to do exactly what DD told him on the horcrux expedition).

Although we don't know for certain that the action below of Severus is related to the argument in the forest, still Severus' and Harry have mirroring actions.

Mirror of Actions: Harry force-feeds the Cave liquids to DD, in spite of the excruciating torment that they produce. DD toward the end begs to be killed. Later, Severus AK's DD following a request of "Severus, please." From a 3rd person point of view, both actions look very, very similar -- individuals acting cruelly to an old man. The old man begging for -- mercy? death? something?

Mirror of Emotions: In the midst of the above action, which is directly related to the previous conversation with DD, Harry feels such overwhelming emotion at his part in the action, that he hates himself and is repulsed by his actions. In midst of his action of AKing DD, Severus displays the emotions of "hatred" and "revulsion."

Okay -- the mirroring is there. It's not the characters decisions or intentions that are creating that mirror, but JKR's writing, descriptive words, and mapping of the action. This isn't one of those things where you pick out the details and make it fit a preconceived idea of a mirror. It's quite clearly there. The use of practically the exact same words to describe Harry and Severus emotions about the action pretty much seals this as a mirror.

The only real question is whether or not the mirroring conversation in the forest is -- like Harry and DD's conversation in the Cave -- directly related to the mirroring actions. Because the tone of the conversations are such mirrors, the actions are mirrors, and the emotions are described in mirroring language, I feel that it is a very, very high likelihood that the conversations are not only mirrors in tone ("you have to do this. You agreed to do this. You must do it."), but that the conversation with Severus must be about the action that DD wants him to do on the tower, just as DD's conversation with Harry is about the action he wants him to do in the Cave.

In other words...for Harry, the conversation with DD and DD's insistence, leads to the action, which produces the emotion. Therefore, under the evidence of all of the other mirroring, I believe that for Severus, the forest conversation and DD's insistence, leads to the action, which produces the emotion. Rather than... for Severus the conversation and DD's insistence producing an emotion which leads to an alternate action than the action specified in the conversation. You see, if that was the case, the later mirroring in the action and emotion parts would be contradictory if not pointless. It would be contradictory and pointless because you'd have actions and emotions described in mirroring terms, but in fact not mirroring at all.

Oh, I hope that made sense! This is where all my nonverbal thinking is in play and I see this like some 3-D moving venn diagram or something, and it's very hard to me to translate it into words!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Diagon Nilly - Nov 11, 2005 9:24 am (#41 of 236)

Well said, Wynnleaf! I couldn't agree more!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Vulture - Nov 11, 2005 9:39 am (#42 of 236)

Sorry, my last post was a bit incomplete, because I got prematurely logged off.

=====================================================================

==================================================================

Conversation/argument mirror: ...

Mirror of Actions: ...

Mirror of Emotions: ...

wynnleaf - Nov 11, 2005 8:59 am (#40)

The following is all just my opinion, but I'm afraid I don't see any "mirror" in the events you refer to, unless you're going to suggest similar parallels elsewhere _ which I haven't , in fact, seen suggested. Yes, I see similarities up to a point _ but only at the same point where I could make connections between these and other events, or between other sets of events and characters, all over the books.

You have to bear in mind that these books are about a war (of a sort), and war tends to impose similar choices, issues, and emotions on different participants. And those choices, issues, and emotions tend to be very compelling ones, both for those directly affected and for those who just read about them, which is why perfectly civilised people who abhor violence nevertheless keep booksellers in business selling tons of books from many different genres of violence and conflict. It's hardly surprising that, in one fictional world of conflict created by one author, similarities crop up.

Of course, each of us can make connections of our own _ that's part of the enjoyment of reading. You say "This isn't one of those things where you pick out the details and make it fit a preconceived idea of a mirror." _ I'm afraid that (in my opinion) it is exactly one of those things. I know I do the same myself _ it's always easier to spot the speck in another's eye than the log in one's own; I know, I know.

I don't mean any offence, but some of Snape's fans (though I, in fact, also count myself as one) seem to share his tendency to keep insisting on his central importance in everything , and therefore are necessarily pushed into constantly mapping his actions to those of Harry, who is the central character. The irony is that, if his fans would just let him be , Snape is quite a strong and enjoyable character in his own right.

Anyway, if we're to continue arguing about Snape, may I suggest we move it to his thread (though I'm trying to stay off the damn thing _ it consumes time like a whale with sandwiches.)

Having said all the above, Wynnleaf, your "mirror" theory is extremely , not to say intensely , well-thought-out and argued. It's just that (I'm afraid) I disagree with all of it !! :-)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Nov 11, 2005 9:45 am (#43 of 236)

Anyway, if we're to continue arguing about Snape, may I suggest we move it to his thread

You know, I thought my entire post was to support my understanding of what was going on in the forest conversation -- the topic of the thread. If I was not clear enough even to get that bit across, it's no wonder you don't agree with me. I know I can get awfully "involved" or convoluted in an argument, but I at least thought my purpose , to explain the forest conversation in light of the mirroring pieces, was clear.

As regards the mirroring (parallels is you like) -- for instance, can I take it that you think the use of almost the exact same descriptive words for Harry and Severus' emotions are either a) accidental or b) a red herring, and have nothing to do with any intent of JKR to draw a correlation between the two?

And the similarities in the conversation/arguments are the same -- circumstantial, accidental, or red herrings.

I don't mean any offence, but some of Snape's fans (though I, in fact, also count myself as one) seem to share his tendency to keep insisting on his central importance in everything , and therefore are necessarily pushed into constantly mapping his actions to those of Harry, who is the central character.

I don't do that with the other books. But in this case, it's HP and the HBP, after all, aka, Harry Potter and Severus Snape. I think there'd be no surprise that JKR would have lots of links between the two, including parallels, in this book.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Vulture - Nov 11, 2005 10:40 am (#44 of 236)

OK, to continue from #39 (please read #39 first) _

I tend to feel that, in general, logical plot is not JKR's strong point. Now, that's not to say that she doesn't produce colourful and convincing action _ she does. And of course, her characters are her No. 1 strength. But I generally don't look too hard for all the dots to join on the logic level. For example, at Book 3's end, the explanations to reconcile Sirius's actions during the book with his innocence are among the thinnest notions I've ever read. We accept them, of course, because we accept the overall idea about Sirius as a character. (If you feel like arguing on this point, please let's take it to the Sirius thread.)

Anyway, what I'm saying is that (in my opinion) the best we can do with what Hagrid overhears is look for as close a common-sense and down-to-earth explanation as we can reconcile wit what we know.

Here's mine: (I'm assuming _ just for now _ that Snape is on Dumbledore's side. If he's not, the following would be framed a bit differently.)

Scene 1:

In the "Spinner's End" chapter, we all see how confident and at his ease Snape is with the Wicked Sisters. (I'd almost suspect his enjoyment of Bellatrix's indignation to be on the verge of flirtatiousness, were it not that putting the words "Snape" and "flirt" in the same sentence boggles the mind.) As the scene progresses, however (i.e. after his answers to Bellatrix's questions, and during Narcissa's pleas) he becomes slightly more _ I won't say 'on edge', but 'guarded' is perhaps the word I want. WI think I've referred to this elsewhere: when Narcissa asks him to take the Vow, he pauses _ maybe not long, but long enough for Bellatrix to cackle with scepticism. That says to me that he wasn't expecting Narcissa to pull out the Vow on him. Indeed, why should he ? _ it was he, not she, who had started that part of the conversation ("Listen ... it might be possible for me to help Draco"), and he did so mainly to stop her blubbering. (She was in a right state, slopping wine down her dress.) Snape had just shut Bellatrix and her questions up with a masterly defence, and suddenly Narcissa pulls this Vow thing like a Joker card and threatens to undo it all.

So, he 'wings' it, as we say at home. He goes along with it; his chances are pretty good, after all, that Narcissa won't ask much other than to be, in effect, Draco's nanny. But as we see, she does ask for the big one. That's why we get his hand twitching. We don't know (either then or at Book 6's end) whether he knew, at this point, what "the deed" Draco was to perform actually was. But even if he did _ well, after all, Dumbledore is the greatest wizard for ages, isn't he ? Surely he'll sort something out ? After all, Dumbledore, in a sense, is the one who got him (Snape) into the whole hornets' nest in the first place. Snape is into gambler's territory at this stage, and his chances aren't impossible.

Scene 2:

We don't see this, but we can assume it: that is, we can assume that Dumbledore and Snape have more conversations than we see. Anyway _ when Snape reports to Dumbledore, it turns out that there's damn all Dumbledore can do. So we're now into a situation where Dumbledore (and Snape himself, no doubt) are racking their brains trying to contrive something that will help Snape avoid the Vow.

Scene 3: The Forest argument. Bear in mind that they may have had many such conversations, all of which end in the fact that they're, in effect, trapped unless one of them sacrifices himself. Dumbledore wouldn't order Snape to die, all other things being equal _ but they're not equal: you see, Dumbledore doesn't regard death as the worst thing that can happen to a person _ he would see being a murderer as worse.

By the time of the Forest conversation, exasperation at going over the same old ground may be starting to set in. Snape wants to get out of the trap; Dumbledore is overheard emphasising that Snape made the Vow.

Scene 3: The "pleading" _ I think that, in the end, Snape can't face sacrificing himself, and that Dumbledore is horrified at his (Snape's) choice.

Out of time !!!!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Nov 11, 2005 11:18 am (#45 of 236)

I can't buy that DD would ever talk to anyone that way regarding their impending death. Nor do I think DD's trust would be iron clad after such a conversation, or many such conversations.

What Hagrid overheard doesn't seem to support Snape trying to get out of the vow.

Well...I just heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much fer granted an' maybe he...Snape...didn' wan' ter do it anymore....

That doesn't sound like objecting to the vow. It sounds a bit silly if Snape is talking about the vow. He knew it was an unbreakble vow before he took it, not something you just decide you don't want to do anymore. And it can't be talking about his death from the vow, did he ever want to die?

It sounds, to me, more like an objection to a request from DD to do something, or to continue doing something. Dying from the vow requires him to do nothing.

Hope that makes sense.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Ann - Nov 11, 2005 11:38 am (#46 of 236)

Thanks, wynnleaf, for a really excellent argument for the mirroring. I think there's a lot more of it in the books, particularly HBP. Harry is much more like Snape than like James. In no particular order, one might note that they're both taunted and distrusted by their fellow students; they're both "Dumbledore's men," they're both half-bloods, they both did Dark spells as students (Harry's Sectumsempra and his attempts to do the Cruciatus curse), they both have violent tempers and blame others for their own misjudgment (I think Snape blames James for Lily's death in the same way that Harry blames Snape for Sirius's), and they are both solidly against Voldemort because he has killed people that they love (Lily in Snape's case; Lily and James in Harry's.)

So I think you're quite right about the Forest conversation--it mirrors the one in the cave. My question about what Hagrid has overheard comes from his initial interpretation of it. In the lead up, Hagrid is talking about the possibility that the school will be closed. Everyday danger is an expected thing at Hogwarts, he explains "but attempted murder, tha's diff'rent. 'S'no wonder Dumbledore's angry with Sn---"

Why does Hagrid think it's no wonder? What does Snape have to do with the necklace or the poison? Certainly nothing on the surface, and Hagrid clearly trusts Snape because Dumbledore does (he won't believe Harry when he tells him Snape's killed Dumbledore). And, in fact, in the conversation he recounts, it is Snape that's angry--Dumbledore just tells him flatly that he's agreed to do something, so he's going to have to do it. I don't understand Hagrid's statement. Does anyone else?

I agree that the investigation in his house is weird, too. Surely Dumbledore knows by now that Draco's behind these things; what is the point of an investigation? Unless it's to keep Draco from hurting anyone else in his attempts to kill Dumbledore--that could be it, I suppose. I can't see Wormtail being involved, since he isn't, really.

I was also struck, as wynnleaf was, by the fact that whatever Snape has agreed to do is an on-going task, not a one time thing (I can't see that it's killing Dumbledore, much less apologizing to Harry). It's not just that Hagrid says "anymore," but that he says it sounded to him like Snape was complaining about overwork. So it's got to be something more on-going: perhaps simply doing Dumbledore's bidding, but there may be more to it than that. It might be that he's referring to attempting to watch over and help Draco (even though Draco resists him); he may be ready to give up--to do nothing, as T Vrana just put it--which would result in his death. If so, he's basically offering to give his life for Dumbledore--another parallel with Harry, who in the cave offers to drink the potion instead.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Nov 11, 2005 12:10 pm (#47 of 236)

I've thought it might be the double life bit Snape doesn't want to do anymore. Pretending to be a DE. Now DD wants him to go in even deeper, leave the decent WW behind, be hunted and hated. 'Confirm' what the Order thinks of him...

Just a thought....

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Nov 11, 2005 12:21 pm (#48 of 236)

Vulture said-- The "pleading" _ I think that, in the end, Snape can't face sacrificing himself, and that Dumbledore is horrified at his (Snape's) choice.

Nice storyline. Very clear. However, I cannot accept that DD would ask Snape to die. I see it the other way around, insisting that Snape "kill" him in order for Snape to become Vold's prized possession thus securing spy position. Hence Hagrid hears Snape "doesn't want to do it anymore". I've always thought that, basically what T Vrana posted #47.

Ann said-- I agree that the investigation in his house is weird, too. Surely Dumbledore knows by now that Draco's behind these things; what is the point of an investigation? Unless it's to keep Draco from hurting anyone else in his attempts to kill Dumbledore--that could be it, I suppose.

I see the "investigate the house" as finding out who is helping Draco. We've got Snape drilling Draco for info on who besides Crabbe and Goyle are helping him and of course Draco doesn't tell him.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Nov 11, 2005 7:45 pm (#49 of 236)

Vulture said-- The "pleading" _ I think that, in the end, Snape can't face sacrificing himself, and that Dumbledore is horrified at his (Snape's) choice.

Nice storyline. Very clear. However, I cannot accept that DD would ask Snape to die.

Neither can I. But also, if DD was telling Severus he needed to follow through and die with the Vow, would he really go about it with the tone Hagrid described? "Look Severus, you agreed to it and that's that." Mighty "firm" with him, was DD, according to Hagrid.

Now suppose a commander is having to send someone on a mission that's going to basically mean their death. So what about whether or not they go themselves into it. Is that commander really going to use that tone???

I'd think if you really had to talk to someone facing certain death, you'd focus more on supportive statements, looking to give confidence, the meaning to that person's sacrifice, a peace with what was happening, courage -- stuff like that. Not "you agreed to it, now you've got to do it." Be "firm" with him. Yeah right. Sorry, I can't picture DD approaching it like that.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

TwinklingBlueEyes - Nov 11, 2005 11:47 pm (#50 of 236)

I can't help from going back asking myself ... when did I ever trust Hagrid's view as gospel? Something strikes me as off, but I can't put my finger on it.

... toddles off to ponder ponderous things somemore...

Lady Arabella Wed May 25, 2011 9:21 pm

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Saracene - Nov 12, 2005 2:19 am (#51 of 236)

I can't see it that Dumbledore would insist on Snape dying. I don't think that their conversation supports that notion, either. Snape's words suggest that he thinks that Dumbledore is asking too much of him - thing is, it was Snape himself who got them into the whole Vow mess (I don't think he can blame Dumbledore for anything. Snape wouldn't be where he's now if he didn't originally join the Death Eaters in the first place.) On what grounds could Snape say that he did't want to die and expect that Dumbledore would choose to sacrifice his own life because Snape screwed up? If Snape would be to die, he's the person responsible for it - not Dumbledore.

On death vs. murder: well, that takes up back to whether there are distinctions between murder as Draco had planned it and killing someone because that's what you've been asked to do. I don't think Dumbledore's views would be as extreme as to prefer death to killing in ANY circumstances.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

kage - Nov 12, 2005 10:01 am (#52 of 236)

I can't see DD planning his own or anybody elses death. It's impossible. Period.

So if the forest conversation is related to the outcome of the tower events it is also related to what DD was planning - and how it went wrong.

We don't know if Severus ever told DD about the vow - he might well have not! Wether out of pride (such a stupid mistake, getting himself into that trap) or out of malicious intentions...again, we don't know.

We do know that DD was planning to save Draco from LV. And with giving the DADA job to Severus it was pretty clear that Severus would leave Hogwarts before end of term.

So what could DD have been planning that
a) fits with these two pieces of information we've got and
b) Severus might not be to keen on doing anymore after Draco has turned against him and
c) makes some sense with the tower events?

I keep coming back to the idea that DD wanted Severus to go 'underground' with Draco. That makes at least for some sort of a plan. And after Draco started to see and treat Severus as a rival Severus 'affection' for Draco could well have gone down the drain, so he didn't want to do it anymore.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Nov 12, 2005 11:06 am (#53 of 236)

We don't know if Severus ever told DD about the vow...

No, we don't know for sure. We can figure out that DD sent the letter to Harry that he'd pick him up at the Dursleys as well as go on an errand (trying to recruit Slughorn), only days after the Vow was made. And we know that Harry told DD about the vow. So even if Severus didn't tell DD about the vow right after it occurred, DD certainly found out about it. At least, I think it's a fair assumption that if DD hadn't heard about it prior to Harry's eavesdropping on the Severus/Draco conversation, then DD would at least ask Severus about it when he heard about it over Christmas or just afterward.

I also think that what Severus doesn't want to do any more has to do with going deeply under cover. It seems to tie in with Hagrid's belief that Severus was feeling over worked or sort of stressed out. By this time, he'd have been doing the double agent thing for 1 1/2 years, on top of what he'd done in the past. That would be pretty dangerous and "high stress." Then, to be have to plan on going very deeply undercover, away from Hogwarts -- well, that could be even worse. If a "faked death" for DD was included, that would obviously make Severus position particularly precarious. But even if that wasn't in the original plan, just getting Draco -- who is not cooperating with Severus at all -- away and under cover would be pretty tricky, especially if he'd still have to be lying to LV and playing the DE in that arena. In other words, it looks like he'd be jumping out of the proverbial frying pan into the fire.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Nov 12, 2005 12:10 pm (#54 of 236)

I tend to trust what Hagrid says because so often he is simply spouting what he has heard from Dumbledore. Granted sometimes you have to read between the lines, but basically it's Dumbledore's ideas and words coming out of Hagrid's mouth.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

kage - Nov 12, 2005 1:49 pm (#55 of 236)

choices, it's only the bit about Severus beeing overworked that I can't believe completely. Hagrid spilled something he shouldn't have heard and certainly not talked about. To me that very bit sounds like Hagrid wants to make these news sound less important.

wynnleaf: And we know that Harry told DD about the vowOh yes, you're perfectly right, of course.

And yes, it could be about nothing else but Severus not wanting to do the spying anymore. But I can not make myself belief DD's death was faked. And I meant something like Severus hiding Draco and Narcissa and go 'underground' himself - and not return to LV. Which would mean that he's mostly out of the game - another thing the he probably wouldn't be too happy about (bold assumption The Forest Conversation: What Did Dumbledore Ask Snape To Do? 3276373137

The Forest Conversation: What Did Dumbledore Ask Snape To Do? 3276373137

)

Ah, I'm doing a poor job on expressing my thoughts tonight, sorry, I'll try again, tomorrow maybe...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Ann - Nov 12, 2005 4:10 pm (#56 of 236)

But why did Hagrid say it wasn't surprising that Dumbldore was angry at Snape after Malfoy's two attempts at murder? What's the connection?

And was Dumbledore angry? Or just firm? Did Hagrid tell Harry everything he heard? (He usually does.)

By the way, I can easily see Dumbledore planning his own death--insisting that Snape kill him rather than let Draco do it or have Snape die himself. I can't see Dumbledore planning anyone else's death (except Voldemort's).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Saracene - Nov 13, 2005 12:44 am (#57 of 236)

With Dumbledore and the Vow: while personally I do believe that he knew about it, just to play devil's advocate I'd say that while Harry told Dumbledore about the Vow, Harry doesn't know the full content of its terms. All he heard Snape say is that Snape swore an Unbreakable Vow to Draco's mother to protect him. The real interesting question IMO is whether Dumbledore knew about the all-important third clause.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Nov 13, 2005 8:43 am (#58 of 236)

Ann, I agree. Saracene, I guess it just depends on whether you see Snape as DD's man or Vold's...

A point was made on another thread that Vold sent Snape to interview for a position that was cursed. This sounds strange. He must have known that Snape wouldn't last more than one year. It was DD knowing about the curse, to me, that prevented him from hiring Snape that year until he was sure Snape had turned and then the Potions position was available.

On top of the fact that Snape has constantly been tested for his loyalty by both sides for years, a long time ago with DD and recently with Vold. Must be very stressful, hence the forest conversation. I mean, what he says Bellatrix in Spinner's End, all the excuses he's had to formulate, stories have to match, he must use occulmense against the "greatest legilimense", etc. Whoa. I'd be freaking out too, saying I can't do it anymore.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Vulture - Nov 13, 2005 10:55 am (#59 of 236)

I've thought it might be the double life bit Snape doesn't want to do anymore. Pretending to be a DE. (T Vrana - Nov 11, 2005 12:10 pm (#47)

I agree; that's the other possibility. I reckon that the two main contenders for what Snape doesn't want to do anymore are either (1) the Vow _ or something to sort it out, or (2) his spy job.

Nice storyline. Very clear. However, I cannot accept that DD would ask Snape to die. I see it the other way around, insisting that Snape "kill" him in order for Snape to become Vold's prized possession thus securing spy position. (me and my shadow 813- Nov 11, 2005 12:21 pm (#48)

Well, firstly, I'm not sure my own storyline was that good, in fact !! (More on that in a minute.)

On 'asking Snape to die' _ are you sure that you're talking about death as Dumbledore sees it, or as you do ? You see, if Snape is definitely on the good side, and if he therefore has got himself in a trap over the Vow, I can certainly agree with you that Dumbledore would want to sacrifice himself to let Severus off the hook. But does he in fact have that choice ? You see, what you seem to be perhaps forgetting is the Avra Kedavra itself. Of course, Dumbledore doesn't want Severus to die _ but he knows that it's worse for him (Snape) to perform an Avra Kedavra than to die.

(And if you think Dumbledore plays soft soap, think again _ remember that moment in "Goblet Of Fire" where it hits home to Harry just why Dumbledore is called "the only one Voldemort ever feared" ?)

Well, I'll leave that to tick over. Now, on my own storyline _ I'm happy enough with my analysis of "Spinner's End" ('Scene 1' as I called it), but not so sure on the rest _ if only because I was rushing. But basically, let me put it this way:

In analysing what Hagrid overheard, I think we need to put it together with, and examine, 4 main things:

(1) "Spinner's End" chapter, especially Snape's hand-twitch.

(2) The Forest argument itself, especially the 2 "it"-s.

(3) The Dumbledore death scene _ especially the pleading.

(4) Snape's behaviour the same evening as (3) _ what we know of it, I mean _ for example, the fact that he stunned Flitwick.

I've got to run ...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madame Pomfrey - Nov 13, 2005 12:10 pm (#60 of 236)

I think Dumbledore had two reasons why he hired Snape for the DADA job. #1 Dumbledore had a plan which involved Snape going to Voldemort's side permanently (why else hire him for a job he knows to be cursed in which no one lasts more than a year. #2 Having removed Snape as potions master, Harry was able to take N.E.W.T. level potions.

I think the forest conversation had to do with Snape's going to Voldemort's side. Snape didn't want to do it but was neccessary for Dumbledore's plan to work. When Snape AK'd Dumbledore, I think the hate and revulsion on Snape's face mirrored his feelings about going through with this plan, killing Dumbledore and having the whole W.W know him as Dumbledore's murderer and traitor. I think Dumbledore's pleading was for Snape to follow through with this plan. In doing this, Snape has placed himself in the greatest danger and is why he goes off on Harry when Harry called him a coward.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Nov 13, 2005 3:34 pm (#61 of 236)

Hi Vulture, you wrote -- You see, what you seem to be perhaps forgetting is the Avra Kedavra itself. Of course, Dumbledore doesn't want Severus to die _ but he knows that it's worse for him (Snape) to perform an Avra Kedavra than to die.

But you may be forgetting that Moody told an entire class in 4th year that if they all tried to AK him at the same time he would barely get a nosebleed or something. So I don't think it's necessarily "worse" for Snape to use an AK than to die. There is no possible way to know if Snape put his entire force behind that AK or if he was thinking "don't work, don't work" as he did it". Oh well, we'll have to wait and see.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Saracene - Nov 13, 2005 4:15 pm (#62 of 236)

Of course, Dumbledore doesn't want Severus to die _ but he knows that it's worse for him (Snape) to perform an Avra Kedavra than to die.

I can't say I remember Dumbledore expressing a sentiment that it is always better to die than to kill, whatever the circumstances of the killing are. He says that there are worse things than death - but he doesn't exactly elaborate.

Also, I'd say that Avada Kedavra was Snape's personal choice, rather than something Dumbledore asked him to do, specifically. Surely there are other ways to kill someone with magic. However, if you wished to convince the Death Eaters around you that you're definitely on LV's side, AK is the way to go.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Ann - Nov 13, 2005 5:47 pm (#63 of 236)

I also think that when Dumbledore said that there were worse things than death, he didn't mean the Avada Kedavra curse. One tears one's soul when one kills, but I think the tear can mend. (The evil thing about the horcrux is that you prevent the mending by putting the soul bit into something else, as I understand it.) Surely Dumbledore wouldn't argue that killing is always evil and inexcusable; after all, Harry is going to have to kill Voldemort, and one assumes that Aurors and Order members kill when they fight Death Eaters. If Snape killed Dumbledore at Dumbledore's own insistence, and in doing so saved Draco and Harry as well as himself, and positioned himself to help Harry take down Voldemort, I think the damage to his soul would be fairly minimal.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Ms Hagrid - Nov 14, 2005 7:50 am (#64 of 236)

I have wondered whether Dumbledore might have preferred his death to be a result of Avada Kedavra versus whatever-it-was that potion he drank was.

Perhaps the effect of that potion would be to turn you into an Inferius (joining the others in the lake) after it killed you. Wouldn't Dumbledore prefer a quick, clean AK death instead?

Snape would still be reluctant to be the one who actually did the AK, but I could see him realizing that it had to be done.

My apologies if this has already been mentioned elsewhere!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Nov 14, 2005 9:34 am (#65 of 236)

Vulture,

We had a discussion a few days back about what I called the mirroring, and I think you called parallels, between certain scenes in the book. The "clincher" on those mirrors or parallels for me is JKR's use of almost exactly the same adjectives for Harry's emotions while force-feeding DD the liquids in the Cave, as the ones she uses to describe Severus' face when AKing DD. As you know, I did a sort of "connect the dots" kind of thing starting with the forest conversation, to Harry's conversations with DD prior to the Cave liquids scenes, to the tower scene.

Anyway, you saw those parallels more in the context of there being many parallels within the context of war situations (sorry, I know I'm simplifying drastically).

But I wanted to ask you specifically about the parallel use of almost the same adjectives to describe Harry's internal emotions and Severus' external emotions. You know what I mean -- Harry felt hatred for himself and repulsed at his actions; Severus face was full of hatred and revulsion.

Why do you think JKR used the same words? Do you believe this was purely coincidental? What do you think we should take from this parallel? Nothing?

For me personally, it's the primary argument against a faked death (and I'm in the "DD faked his death" camp). I tend to think if I'm seeing the same language used for such similar situations, then JKR is also describing the same emotions. I know there's no proof of that. But I just can't believe she used the same words pointlessly or without purpose. So what could the purpose be? To me, if the words are alike, what she's describing is also alike. If that's the case, then the emotions on Severus' face would be caused by more or less the same concerns that caused Harry to feel hatred for himself and be repulsed at his actions. And if Severus was feeling hatred for himself and revulsion over what he was doing, then I don't think it could be a simple "faked death" kind of AK.

That last paragraph really belongs in the thread on DD's death being faked or not. But the problem extends back to the forest conversation.

But my question for you is simply this. What do you think about JKR's use of the same words for Harry and Severus' emotions? What do you glean from her use of those words?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Vulture - Nov 14, 2005 10:42 am (#66 of 236)

I can't say I remember Dumbledore expressing a sentiment that it is always better to die than to kill, whatever the circumstances of the killing are. (Saracene - Nov 13, 2005 4:15 pm (#62)

No, he didn't, and I don't believe I exactly said so either. The key words that I would disagree with in the exact wording of the sentiment above would be "always" and "whatever the circumstances".

However, I believe we can deduce that Dumbledore does believe that is better to die than to murder _ all other things being equal. He never spells this out fully, but we know that he says to Voldemort, "You are quite wrong", in direct contradiction to Voldemort's statement that "There is nothing worse than death" in Book 5. (I think we can assume that Dumbledore weighs every word he says when facing Voldemort.)

Now, later, in Book 6, Slughorn tells the young Tom Riddle that "death would be preferable" to splitting one's soul, and that the way a wizard/witch splits his/her soul is by murder. Slughorn's demeanour as he says this is very different from his usual cheery self-indulgent manner _ he is unusually grave and, indeed, appalled at the whole mention of the very topic.

I think we can assume two things about the above Slughorn episode _ firstly, that what he says is not some private moral belief of his own: his feeling about it reflects a general attitude about Horcruxes _ clues to this are it's being a "banned subject" and Dumbledore being "especially fierce" about it. Secondly, if a normally self-centred and morally lackadaisical wizard like Slughorn nevertheless snaps to attention on this point, we can assume that it's a known and accepted taboo in the wizard world.

Now, you may object that this 'only applies to Horcruxes', and not to murder in general. But Slughorn's conversation with Riddle is quite clear _ murder by a wizard splits the soul. The only question is whether a wizard-murderer would afterwards "use this (the soul-split) to his advantage" to make a Horcrux; he/she might not. But his/her soul would still be split, and I feel it's quite clear that this is seen as worse than being dead.

Think of how wizards, even on the Dark Side, react to murder in JKR's books _ it's not something they take lightly. The exception, of course, is Voldemort _ but then, that is the point of the whole story, isn't it ?

But you may be forgetting that Moody told an entire class in 4th year that if they all tried to AK him at the same time he would barely get a nosebleed or something. So I don't think it's necessarily "worse" for Snape to use an AK than to die. There is no possible way to know if Snape put his entire force behind that AK or if he was thinking "don't work, don't work" as he did it". (me and my shadow 813 - Nov 13, 2005 3:34 pm (#61)

No, I didn't forget that _ I simply don't see your point. The class didn't have the ability to do an Avda Kedavra; Snape has, we can assume. Even if the "fake death" camp are correct and he didn't, in fact, use this ability on the Tower, I think his general wizard abilities and interest in Dark Arts make it reasonable to assume he could do a full-blown Avda Kedavra if he chose.

So, that's the ability. Now, I can't see the logic of "he was thinking 'don't work, don't work' as he did it" (the AK). I mean, either he meant to do it or (if the "fake death" camp are right) he and Dumbledore cooked up a big act for everyone else's benefit. (I don't believe this, myself.) I don't think the Avda Kedavra is like some sort of gun that poor ol' Snape didn't realise was loaded !!

If Snape did do a proper Avda Kedavra, he would have to mean it (as Bellatrix explained in Book 5) for it to kill Dumbledore. That, as I hope I've shown, would definitely be worse for his soul than death, and if he consulted Dumbledore on the moral choice beforehand, Dumbledore would not shirk from making that clear. (It certainly looks to me as if Snape _ assuming him to be on the "right side" _ got himself caught between the rock of the Vow and the hard place of dying instead of fulfilling it.) This may look harsh, but Dumbledore, out of love for Severus, would not give a damn about how the right thing looks.

(Of course, if we, the readers, are being tricked about what really happened on the Tower, that's a whole other question (for which, I have to point out, there is no hard evidence).)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Ann - Nov 14, 2005 10:58 am (#67 of 236)

It's actually Crucio that Bellatrix said one has to mean, not the Avada Kedavra. But it's a fair assumption that this is also true of the AK.

I don't think you've proved that the soul split that results from murder is worse than death. It is two of the three methods (that we know of) of making onself immortal that result in something that is worse than death: drinking unicorn blood (as Harry learns in Book 1) and the horcrux. I think the cases are roughly parallel: in both cases, you are killing something innocent to preserve your own life and as a result, that life is cursed. (Voldemort, incidentally, does both those things--not wise. It is his "greatest weakness" that he doesn't realize that some things are worse than death.) But I don't think that all killing, even in battle, would have the same effect: the evil part is when you use the torn soul bit, forestalling any possibility of repentance. Dumbledore does say (OotP) that the prophecy means Harry will have to kill Voldemort in the end if he is to live himself. He does not then go on to say "but of course you wouldn't want to do that, since it would be worse than death to be a murderer."

Me and My Shadow was, I think, confused about your post, and assumed you meant that the AK in itself hurt the caster, rather than the death of the other person. But the point is the intention behind casting the spell at all--the penalty depends on that.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Nov 14, 2005 11:13 am (#68 of 236)

Ann - I'm confused quite a bit... The Forest Conversation: What Did Dumbledore Ask Snape To Do? 464751818

I posted on another thread, I believe it was Horcrux thread, talking about intention. To me it is the only thing that can save one's soul in such times of war. Otherwise, from the outside looking in, killings may look identical.

My point about Snape using an AK being worse than death is just because a person verbalized "Avada Kedavra" with a wand in their hand doesn't mean they've done something that will cause them great pain worse than death. So yes that's an ability of his, but in the story we've been told that it's what one chooses to do with one's abilities that counts and I agree.

In any event, if Snape successfully and squarely AK'd DD with every ounce of effort behind it, and DD is dead as a doornail, to me it doesn't alter the plot very much. DD will be there in the portrait orchestrating things and Snape will do his job as spy for the Order.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Valfunde - Nov 14, 2005 11:47 am (#69 of 236)

And remember everyone that there was much emphasis in HBP on non-verbal spells! We, through Harry's eyes, see Snape cast the AK curse, BUT it seems to react to DD differently than what we've been shown as the AK before...DD flying up into the air and over the tower. Did Severus really AK DD? Did he make it look like it and cast a non-verbal spell of something else? So many questions!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Ann - Nov 14, 2005 2:57 pm (#70 of 236)

I don't think Snape would have looked so agonized if it had been another spell that wouldn't really kill him. He wouldn't have reacted so badly when Harry told him to "kill me like you killed him." And AKs seem to work differently at different times, as do a lot of other spells. I remember being suspicious when Harry, Ron, and Hermione managed to knock Snape out with Expelliarmus--previous examples had just summoned the wand. Impedimenta, too, seems much more violent some times than others. Perhaps it simply reflects the power of the caster?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Saracene - Nov 15, 2005 12:03 am (#71 of 236)

I still don't see any actual evidence that Dumbledore believes that it is better to die than to murder. He says to Riddle that there are worse things than death - but he doesn't elaborate further and certainly doesn't mention murder.

And actually, Slughorn does not precisely say that death is preferrable to splitting your soul. Here's the exact wording of Slughorn's:

"Well, you split your soul, you see, and hide part of it in an object outside the body. Then, even if one's body is attacked or destroyed, one cannot die, for part of the soul remains earthbound and undamaged. But of course, existence in such a form... few would want it, Tom, very few. Death would be preferrable."

Later he of course refers to murder as a "supreme act of evil" - but when he talks of "death being preferrable" he's speaking about the existence such as allowed by a Horcrux if your body is destroyed - not the act of murder.

And if murder is such a taboo in wizarding world, good guys like Sirius and Lupin sure feel no concern about their souls being ripped when they almost kill Pettigrew. And in GoF it's mentioned that under Crouch the Aurors were given a "licence to kill"; so obviously, just like in our world, killing is sometimes seen as justified in wizarding world too.

Also, it's interesting that Voldemort is the only person who is referred to as having a mutilated soul and the only person whose very appearance is distorted by it. Which makes me think that what has changed him so is not necessarily the acts of murder he's committed, but that he kept the torn bits of his soul permanently detached. I wonder what happens to the torn bits anyway; surely they don't just float around everywhere and bump into each other, Smile

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Brightwater - Nov 15, 2005 6:38 pm (#72 of 236)

Valfunde, I wonder about that too. I had a theory about Snape saying AK and actually performing another, nonverbal spell to get DD off the Tower for some quick hocus-pocus - especially since Albus had just been telling Draco about how they could make it look as if he and his mother had been killed. I think I posted it somewhere...a couple months ago...on some thread....(not terribly useful, I know!) My husband thinks DD may be hiding in plain sight, in his portrait!

I agree that "he didn' want ter do it anymore" indicates that whatever Snape is objecting to, it is something he is already doing and wants to stop. Obvious possibilities include:

- teaching DADA?

- trying to get information out of Draco?

- spying on LV?

Less obvious (loony theory alert!):

- Playing host to Wormtail? I can imagine him not wanting to do that anymore!

- socializing with Narcissa to pick up information on Draco's plan? (Admittedly my brain shuts down before I can get a good image of Snape in a Mata Hari-type role...)

Actually, if it's something about Wormtail, that would fit in with (wynnleaf's?) theory that "investigations in his house" actually referred to Spinner's End.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Nov 16, 2005 9:44 am (#73 of 236)

I would have to say that whatever it is, Snape has been doing it a long time - not just something he has been doing for a few months. More likely a few years and that makes me choose spying on Voldemort as the logical one.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Vulture - Nov 16, 2005 10:45 am (#74 of 236)

It's actually Crucio that Bellatrix said one has to mean, not the Avada Kedavra. But it's a fair assumption that this is also true of the AK. (Ann - Nov 14, 2005 10:58 am (#67-

No, what Bellatrix said was : "Never used an Unforgiveable Curse before, have you, boy ? You have to mean them, Potter !!". Those are her exact words _ and note, particularly, the "them".

I don't think you've proved that the soul split that results from murder is worse than death. It is two of the three methods (that we know of) of making onself immortal that result in something that is worse than death: drinking unicorn blood (as Harry learns in Book 1) and the horcrux. (Ann - Nov 14, 2005 10:58 am -#67)

Well, thanks for drawing my attention to the unicorn blood thing, but otherwise, that's two methods, not three _ the soul-split by murder is what you need to do to make a Horcrux. (Or are you saying that there's something else besides (1) unicorn blood and (2) Horcruxes ?) A Horcrux is simply the encasing of one of the split pieces of the soul. I would say that it's Dark Magic, but I think that Dumbledore would consider the worst crime in the whole scenario to be the murder to split the soul. From what Slughorn says, a wizard, to split his/her soul, has to murder.

Anyway _ I think I proved my point on the soul-split (for Horcrux-making) as long as you agree with Slughorn that "death would be preferable", and the rest of his answers to Riddle.

As for unicorn blood _ in Book 1, referring to drinking unicorn blood, Harry asks Firenze _ "if you're going to be cursed forever, death is better, isn't it ?". Firenze agrees that it is.

In both the above situations, it depends if you agree with Slughorn and Firenze. I see no reason not to, in these particular contexts _ in my last post I explained why I feel able to rely on Slughorn about this while not relying on him in general.

Voldemort, of course, with several murders behind him, doesn't give a damn about his soul.

But I don't think that all killing, even in battle, would have the same effect: the evil part is when you use the torn soul bit, foreclosing any possibility of repentance. (Ann - Nov 14, 2005 10:58 am -#67)

Certainly, all killing is not murder _ if one kills in self-defense (where the clear choice was kill someone or be killed by them ), that isn't murder. I emphasize "by them" because it may be that Snape faced a choice of killing an innocent man or being killed by the Vow _ that wasn't self-defense, obviously.

Killing in battle is more problematic for determining the rights and wrongs _ some of humanity's best minds have argued and disagreed about it for centuries. The best I can do is say that, as far as possible, if you're in a battle you should apply the rights and wrongs about murder and self-defense the very best you can. For example, this clearly means that you should not kill prisoners or the defenseless, while it also clearly means that killing someone who is definitely trying to kill you or your comrades is not murder.

A very noticeable feature of JKR's books is that, so far, in battles, the good side appear to have pulled out all the stops to avoid killing their enemies. The only one who has even tried to use Unforgiveable Curses is Harry, and his ineffectiveness at doing so indicates (if we take Bellatrix's words) that he doesn't mean them in the very depth of his soul.

Unfortunately, JKR has stayed silent in the books about the ethics of killing by the good side - apart from when Harry stopped Sirius and Lupin from killing Pettigrew. That episode left questions unanswered _ how would they have killed him ? The Avra Kedavra ? Certainly, as far as I'm concerned, killing a defenseless man would have made them murderers (which is why Harry intervened).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Vulture - Nov 16, 2005 11:47 am (#75 of 236)

(I made this a separate post, mainly because I ran out of editing time on the last one, but also because the two posts answer different people. Hope these and #66, taken together, clarify my points.)

I still don't see any actual evidence that Dumbledore believes that it is better to die than to murder. He says to Riddle that there are worse things than death - but he doesn't elaborate further and certainly doesn't mention murder. (Saracene - Nov 15, 2005 12:03 am - #71)

Firstly, I agree that Dumbledore doesn't spell it out. In #66 and #74, I use various quotations from him, Slughorn and Firenze to make different parts of my case. The point is, I very much doubt if Dumbledore would disagree with their words.

Secondly, turn your question around _ do you really think that Dumbledore believes that it's better for you to murder than to die yourself ? (Now, please note, as I've already said _ not all killing is murder. )

And actually, Slughorn does not precisely say that death is preferrable to splitting your soul. Here's the exact wording of Slughorn's:

Well, you split your soul, you see, and hide part of it in an object outside the body. Then, even if one's body is attacked or destroyed, one cannot die, for part of the soul remains earthbound and undamaged. But of course, existence in such a form... few would want it, Tom, very few. Death would be preferrable.

Later he of course refers to murder as a "supreme act of evil"[/B] - but when he talks of "death being preferrable" he's speaking about the existence such as allowed by a Horcrux if your body is destroyed - not the act of murder. (Saracene - Nov 15, 2005 12:03 am -#71

Yes, but where does the existence of the Horcrux come from ? _ A split soul. Where does the split soul come from ? _ Murder.

And if murder is such a taboo in wizarding world, good guys like Sirius and Lupin sure feel no concern about their souls being ripped when they almost kill Pettigrew. (Saracene- Nov 15, 2005 12:03 am -#71)

We don't know enough about what they "felt" _ we do know that Harry was right to intervene, and that they accepted this. My own opinion is that they were acting out of grief and anger.

And in GoF it's mentioned that under Crouch the Aurors were given a "license to kill"; so obviously, just like in our world, killing is sometimes seen as justified in wizarding world too. (Saracene - Nov 15, 2005 12:03 am -#71)

Yes, and we're specifically invited (not least by Sirius, by the way) to disapprove of what Crouch did.

Also, it's interesting that Voldemort is the only person who is referred to as having a mutilated soul and the only person whose very appearance is distorted by it. Which makes me think that what has changed him so is not necessarily the acts of murder he's committed, but that he kept the torn bits of his soul permanently detached. I wonder what happens to the torn bits anyway; surely they don't just float around everywhere and bump into each other, (Saracene - Nov 15, 2005 12:03 am -#71)

I think the murders and the detached soul splits are two sides of the same coin, in this context.

Lady Arabella Wed May 25, 2011 9:33 pm

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

hawick girl - Nov 16, 2005 4:19 pm (#76 of 236)

The third way to gain immortality is to use the Philosopher's Stone. I had the same thought--ok there are numbers 1 and 2, but what is 3, It took me a couple of minutes and then the light dawned...PS.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Ann - Nov 16, 2005 4:51 pm (#77 of 236)

Vulture, I stand corrected about what Bella said about the Crucio. So, on some level, Snape has to want Dumbledore dead. But I still think it's possible to kill an innocent person with good intentions (not that I could do it--one gets into all those horrible questions like, if you could save a hundred people from certain death by killing a single innocent child, would you do it?)

But Saracene is right: in the case of both unicorn blood and horcruxes, what is worse than death is the cursed existence that is gained by murdering. So you could murder, and create a horcrux, and that wouldn't be worse than death--you could live quite happily (as an evil, morally scarred person, one assumes), until the point when you otherwise would have died. Then the curse would kick in and, although you wouldn't die, your existence from that point on would be worse than death.

I agree that murder seems very much to be avoided by the good guys in these books; but they are children's books after all. I think Harry is going to kill Voldemort, though. And (assuming he survives), his existence will not be forever cursed thereafter. Likewise, if it proves that Snape has killed Dumbledore at Dumbledore's own insistence, he will probably still be miserable and guilty, but his soul will eventually heal. With Draco, the danger was greater. If he'd been able to kill, he would have been praised and honored for it by the Death Eaters and Voldemort, and he wouldn't have the maturity to resist that path. By showing Draco that he's not a killer, and by putting him in Snape's debt, Dumbledore has truly saved Draco.

To get back to the forest conversation, though: Reading it over again, I think it must have been murdering Dumbledore that Snape doesn't want to do anymore. Perhaps Dumbledore got him to promise (or got him to promise to keep his promise to Narcissa), and Snape agreed, since he wanted to save Malfoy. But now that Malfoy has proved so evil (the necklace--in fact, the mead incident has not happened at the time of the conversation, though we hear about the conversation from Hagrid after it), Snape thinks saving Draco isn't worth the guilt and pain he'd suffer from killing Dumbledore anymore. He'd rather die himself.

Oh, and I didn't mean to be enigmatic about the Philosopher's Stone. Sorry.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Nov 16, 2005 11:33 pm (#78 of 236)

Ann wrote -- "But Saracene is right: in the case of both unicorn blood and horcruxes, what is worse than death is the cursed existence that is gained by murdering."

From what I gather about DD in these books, his meaning is simple and I'd take it to relate to the above statement.

The thing worse than death is clinging so desperately to life that you are not only willing to murder/horcrux but won't even realize that you are, ironically, mutilating yourself in the process.

Then you turn around, immortal, yet in pieces and incapable of experiencing anything that a real life has to offer. And I do not believe for a minute that Vold isn't interested in what a real life has to offer, no matter how much we think he "hates love".

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

kage - Nov 17, 2005 4:01 am (#79 of 236)

..."he didn' want ter do it anymore" indicates that whatever Snape is objecting to, it is something he is already doing and wants to stop. - T Brightwater

While this is entirely possible, I also see the possibility that it's something he has agreed to do (according to DD) at a certain point in the future. Which would depend on what DD was originally planning. As I said before, I can't see DD planning for Severus or himself to die/sacrifice himself. Though he might well have known that he wouldn't be around that much longer - age, injury, another horcrux to destroy,...

Please allow me to explain (Warning: long post ahead)

Now, if DD knew about the last part of Severus vow he would have had to create a situation where it would never look as if Draco would fail, because than Severus would have to act or 'drop dead' (yes, I do understand that vow as a serious complication). He'd have to convince Draco to accept his offer of hiding him and his mother completely. Than he or someone else would have to do that hiding. Severus would be a likely candidate for that job, he's already on the jinxed DADA job and he, in my opinion, is in a very precarious situation with LV, who doesn't trust him at all (where did the Order and DD come from in the MOM, Pettigrew installed in his house, capable of doing his own thinking and planning, Occlumens). This way it would make sense for Severus to go into hiding, too, all of his further actions for DD, if any, would have to be extremely underground - not just undercover. Something Severus might not be too keen to do, especially after that little prat turned against him.

If DD did not know about the last part of Severus vow he could create a situation where he confronts Draco, pushing him to the point where Draco lowers his wand (fails!) and then have Severus take care of the hiding (see above). Which is exactly what DD does.

So Severus comes to the scene at the point where not only Draco seems to fail, but with DE on the scene already, and he's got to act. If he stops Draco, the DEs will get alarmed and start acting in the inimitable way DEs act, getting everybody (DD, Draco, Harry, himself, the whole school) in extreme immediate danger. So in a split second Severus decides to kill DD and take Draco and the DEs with him out of Hogwarts for at the cost of making himself a murderer (big sacrifice, not at all the decision of a coward). This decision might well be in accordance with DD), it's what I can believe DD is pleading for, especially after consuming that mysterious potion (not a health drink)

Can anybody follow?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Vaughn - Nov 17, 2005 7:00 am (#80 of 236)

Kage, Excellent break down of the scenarios. I think that you are right on with those two possibilities, the only question that really remains is did DD know about the final part of the vow. I think that he did based on the plea. If he knows about the vow he knows that Severus has to either kill or be killed because Draco is unable to complete his task, so Snape must complete it for him or die. DD knows that without a wand and with Harry frozen and himself somewhat incapacitated by the potion, he probably will not be able to get all of the death eaters. DD is always thinking about his students and I think that he looks at his options, knows that Snape must either kill DD or die from the vow. DD also knows that he cannot guarantee the safety of his students as a whole or Draco or Harry, in his current state. So he sees that his only option is to sacrifice himself, save both Draco and Snape, and allow Snape to save the rest of the school and Harry by getting the DE out of there. Hence the "Severus...please" and the look of disgust and hatred on Snapes face.

I think that this also explains Snapes response to Harry and all his actions when leaving the castle. He doesn't hurt anyone else, his goal is to get everyone out of the castle as quick as possible to keep the rest of the people safe. This is why he goes nuts when Harry calls him a coward. Harry is once again letting his emotions rule whereas Snape's actions are based not on emotion but duty. I can not think of any other scenario that explains how Snape treats Harry at the end.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Ann - Nov 17, 2005 7:48 am (#81 of 236)

kage and Vaughn, a really excellent reconstruction. I was of T Brightwater's opinion initially, the "anymore" implied an ongoing action, but I think now kage is right and it must be a promise. In a sense, keeping to the promise is a continuing action, a continuing willingness to abide by it.

But I'd have to differ, and agree with Vaughn that Snape must have told Dumbledore about the entire vow, not just the first part. I think that's obvious from what Dumbledore says that ultimately makes Draco lower his wand. Draco points out that he has a wand, that Dumbledore is at his mercy, and Dumbledore says:

“No Draco. It is my mercy, and not yours, that matters now.”

To me, that indicates that he has reconciled himself to death. He will not defend himself, as a mercy to Snape, who will die if he does not. And, although he will die anyway, he is expending his last bit of time and effort to ensure that it is not Draco that kills him. Draco will suffer much more from killing Dumbledore than Snape will, because Snape will be doing it for a better reason, and because Snape is mature enough and has enough perspective that he will not be distracted by the praise and honor that his act will bring him from Voldemort and the DEs. For Snape, it is just one more repellant, horrible thing that he has had to do for the right; for Draco, it would be a huge first step on the road to hell.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Brightwater - Nov 18, 2005 11:40 am (#82 of 236)

OK, time for another hare-brained Brightwater theory. : The Forest Conversation: What Did Dumbledore Ask Snape To Do? 1003735042

The Forest Conversation: What Did Dumbledore Ask Snape To Do? 1003735042

Is it possible that DD has been taking Felix Felicis on a regular basis? Has Snape been making it for him? Did Snape start seeing signs of overuse, and did he threaten to stop giving it to DD? We know from Slughorn that taking FF too often has damaging side-effects. I'm taking wynnleaf's excellent "mirroring" idea one step further - DD's order to Harry in the cave involved Harry forcing DD to drink a potion that would harm him.

Maybe DD's confidence was due to the lucky potion, and had begun to turn into dangerous over-confidence. Maybe DD even thought it would protect him from the AK curse, as it protected Ron, Hermione and Ginny from the DEs' hexes. Perhaps the potion in the cave was an anti-Felix...

Anyone want to join me for Happy Hour at St. Mungo's? : The Forest Conversation: What Did Dumbledore Ask Snape To Do? 2281877974

The Forest Conversation: What Did Dumbledore Ask Snape To Do? 2281877974

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Vulture - Nov 18, 2005 12:53 pm (#83 of 236)

hawick girl, well done in #76; completely slipped my mind.

Note that the Philosopher's Stone is the only method that isn't Dark magic.

So you could murder, and create a horcrux, and that wouldn't be worse than death--you could live quite happily (as an evil, morally scarred person, one assumes), until the point when you otherwise would have died. Then the curse would kick in and, although you wouldn't die, your existence from that point on would be worse than death. (Ann - Nov 16, 2005 4:51 pm (#77)

I can't agree with the above. I mean, yes OK, we agree that the cursed existence is worse than death _ no problem there (for me, I mean, not Voldemort or whoever !!). But I also feel that to murder is worse than to die yourself. I mean, surely you must see some contradiction in the words "you could live quite happily (as an evil, morally scarred person...)" ?!! Though I suppose it all depends on how one defines happiness ....

I'm not sure exactly what JKR is up to (who is ?!! _ sigh !!) but I think she is running the two moralities (ours and her wizard world's) together.

I think Harry is going to kill Voldemort, though. And (assuming he survives), his existence will not be forever cursed thereafter. (Ann - Nov 16, 2005 4:51 pm -#77)

Ah. I was afraid of this !! This is where it gets tricky. My own view is that Harry is justified in killing Voldemort because they're at war. However, (1) we then get into the whole area of what is and isn't a just war, and (2) my view does seem to be at odds with the way all the good characters (I'm excluding Snape as "unknown", not to say "suspect" !!) have so far avoided killing. JKR, in Book 6, avoided (whether deliberately or not, I don't know) any straight decision on justification for killing by having Dumbledore tell Harry that Voldemort's hunt for him will make the killing of one of them inevitable. In terms of our own morality, it's almost inevitable that if Harry kills him it'll be self-defense. (What will happen if Harry 'gets the drop on him' I don't know.)

To get back to the forest conversation, though: Reading it over again, I think it must have been murdering Dumbledore that Snape doesn't want to do anymore. Perhaps Dumbledore got him to promise (or got him to promise to keep his promise to Narcissa), and Snape agreed, since he wanted to save Malfoy. But now that Malfoy has proved so evil (the necklace--in fact, the mead incident has not happened at the time of the conversation, though we hear about the conversation from Hagrid after it), Snape thinks saving Draco isn't worth the guilt and pain he'd suffer from killing Dumbledore anymore. He'd rather die himself. (Ann - Nov 16, 2005 4:51 pm (#77)

No, I don't really see the logic; I'm sorry. For one thing, I don't see any evidence that Snape would "rather die himself". Yes, it could be what happens on the Tower that "Snape doesn't want to do anymore", but I don't agree precisely with the rest of what you say. The other candidate for what "Snape doesn't want to do anymore" is spying on Voldemort, I reckon.

I haven't much time left, so I'll go into more detail some other time, but my own hunch (as I think I said before) is that Dumbledore did everything possible to keep Snape from getting caught up in Draco's plan (which would trigger the Vow) _ as opposed to just quizzing Malfoy and keeping Dumbledore informed about it. If you notice, Snape was (I think) the only Order member of Hogwarts staff, and major "good side" (till now !!) character not put on patrol by Dumbledore on the fatal night. I think that the understanding between Dumbledore and Snape was (1) that Snape should try and find out Malfoy's plan so that Dumbledore could close it down; (2) if that didn't work, Dumbledore would arrange things so that Snape wouldn't get caught up in actual events (I'm assuming, of course, that if you don't get any chance to fulfill the Vow, it doesn't punish you); and (3) if that didn't work, Snape was to do the decent thing and refuse the Vow. (Unlike most posts I've read, I feel that Dumbledore would regard murder of an innocent person as far worse than dying oneself, as I've explained.)

I'm not quite sure how to precisely plug what I've said into the right points in the Forest conversation, except that "you take too much for granted" could be Snape getting cold feet about item (3) above.

But anyway, on the Tower, I feel that Dumbledore's pleading is not for mercy, or for encouragement to do the AK, but is a result of dawning horror at what Snape seems about to do to himself by committing murder. (It reminds me of Sir Thomas More's words to the perjurer whose false testimony sent him to his death: "In truth, Master Rich, I am sorrier for your your perjury than mine own peril".)

If he stops Draco, the DEs will get alarmed and start acting in the inimitable way DEs act, getting everybody (DD, Draco, Harry, himself, the whole school) in extreme immediate danger. So in a split second Severus decides to kill DD and take Draco and the DEs with him out of Hogwarts for at the cost of making himself a murderer (big sacrifice, not at all the decision of a coward). This decision might well be in accordance with DD), it's what I can believe DD is pleading for, especially after consuming that mysterious potion (not a health drink) (kage - Nov 17, 2005 4:01 am -#79)

kage, I agree with nearly all your logic in #79 except the above !! But I'm out of time here, so it'll have to wait.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Brightwater - Nov 18, 2005 2:09 pm (#84 of 236)

But anyway, on the Tower, I feel that Dumbledore's pleading is not for mercy, or for encouragement to do the AK, but is a result of dawning horror at what Snape seems about to do to himself by committing murder. (It reminds me of Sir Thomas More's words to the perjurer whose false testimony sent him to his death: "In truth, Master Rich, I am sorrier for your your perjury than mine own peril".)

Vulture, I like your take on this. I think it makes a great deal of sense for DD to keep Snape out of situations where he would be forced to fulfill the Vow, because he wouldn't want Snape to harm himself by killing him.

I may be one of the few people who don't think that Harry is going to kill Voldemort at the end - he'll find and destroy the remaining Horcruxes and then realize, as Draco did, that he is not a killer. Voldemort will die as a result of using Harry's blood for his re-birthing, or be killed by someone else (Wormtail or Snape would be my guess, but maybe that's too much like the death of Saruman in LOTR) or live out the brief remainder of his miserable existence in debt to Harry's mercy - which would probably count as "worse than death" from his point of view.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

nschend - Nov 18, 2005 3:44 pm (#85 of 236)

I just came from the movie and I have just read all the threads on this particular subject. Please forgive me if I mention things that were already said earlier.

There are many things that might come into play. I do believe DD asked Snape to kill him. Why else would DD stall for time with Malfoy at the top of the tower. He quit stalling as soon as he sees Snape. I believe he stunned Harry to carry news back to the Order. That way Snape's cover is completely believed by all sides in case the DEs catch on to Snape's duplicity. I believe this because when Snape and Malfoy are leaving in the forest, Snape does not harm Harry in the least. Snape says, "No Unforgiveable Curses from you Potter". I believe Snape is trying to keep Harry pure for his dealing with LV. LV would easily use Harry's indiscretions against Harry at a critical time to break Harry.

Snape has been much misunderstood by Harry. Snape protected Quirrell from Killing him in Socerer's Stone. Snape tried to teach Harry Occlumency in Order. Snape sent the Order straight to Sirius's home after LV planted a dream in Harry to lure Harry to the Department of Mysteries. He even tried to convince Sirius to stay behind to warn the rest of the Order. I believe he did this to protect Sirius as much as to leave someone behind to give the Order the information. Snape only stunned Sprout so that Malfoy thought Snape had actuallly killed someone.

It might also be possible that DD asked Snape to kill him so that Priori Incantatem would be used in the final battle. Snape might know that one DE has his wand's brother.

Peter has a life debt. I truly believe that will also play a part.

Finding the last of the horcruxes will undoubtedly bring Harry, Hermione, and Ron back to Hogwarts for their seventh year. And could it be possible that Ginny might have some power that LV may have left in her after possessing her in Chamber?

If nothing else, JKR has shown us repeatedly in every book that nothing is as it seems.

So back to that conversation in the woods. We know Hagrid was trying to ignore them. I agree that the investigation was probably meant about Slytherin and trying to find out who gave Katie the necklace. It would be fascinating to see if it really is inquiring into Spinner's End. I am pretty sure Kreacher has the Slytherin necklace. Didn't we get a glimpse of it on Order? At least that's what JKR's interview was hinting at, I think.

I do believe DD would orchestrate his death if it a more "ancient magic" to defeat LV. That would be very Chronicles of Narnia. In fact, DD states that he wanted Harry's happiness more than he had thought of nameless, faceless people getting killed by LV.

Since LV can use Harry's scar to get into Harry, I think Harry's blood will also play a part in tearing LV apart from the inside out. Surely Harry's distress over losing Sirius and DD will burn LV.

Am I completely off course?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Saracene - Nov 18, 2005 7:33 pm (#86 of 236)

I don't think that avoiding the consequences of the Vow is as easy as simply arranging matters so that you don't get a chance to fulfil it. Otherwise there'd be little point to the Vow in the first place - less an Unbreakable Vow and more like a Don't-Worry-You-Can-Still-Get-Around-It Vow. IMO an arrangement like that would be a lot more ruthless and binding: "So you couldn't be around to fulfil your Vow eh? Well that's too bad for you, sunshine, you're still for a chop."

I can't really imagine Dumbledore being so adamant that Snape doesn't harm his soul that he'd seriously prefer a scenario on the Tower where Snape doesn't act on the Vow and dies. What then? Dumbledore would probably still be killed by another Death Eater, and there'd be no one around to hurry them out of the castle. Greyback in particular would have loved to linger and bite some children on his way out. Does the state of Snape's soul really outweigh all pragmatic considerations?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Ann - Nov 18, 2005 8:24 pm (#87 of 236)

I think that a lot of our discussions here reflect our own personal moralities and beliefs about whether, in extreme circumstances, it is worse to do a murder, even for the best of reasons, or to die oneself. I may be particularly aware of this because, personally, I would agree with Vulture and T Brightwater that it would be better to die than be a murderer.

But that doesn't seem to be the attitude the books take. For example, in PoA, when Harry tells Sirius and Remus to spare Wormtail, Dumbledore says it's a very noble deed. In other words, it's extraordinary; he doesn't fault the two older men for contemplating killing him in the first place. He is not shocked or horrified. And at the end of OotP, he clearly tells Harry that he will have to kill Voldemort. This obviously, then, is not a violation of the ethical code of the right side, since Dumbledore himself embodies that code.

I think, in the context of the books, murder for the cause is acceptable. Not good, not particularly noble in itself, but acceptable. And I think it is a murder for the cause that Dumbledore is asking Snape to commit.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

kage - Nov 18, 2005 11:56 pm (#88 of 236)

T Brightwater: I may be one of the few people who don't think that Harry is going to kill Voldemort at the end

Well, at least you're not alone [waves hands]

So you couldn't be around to fulfil your Vow eh? Well that's too bad for you, sunshine, you're still for a chop.

LOL! Saracene, are you calling Severus 'Sunshine'?! May I refer to Severus as 'our little sunshine'? I think I might do that...sorry, I'm in some rather hilarious mood...

Seriously, there seems to be one little problem with DD keeping our little sunshine out of a situation where the vow would kick in: he tells Harry to go and get our little sunshine, twice. The only way I can make that work is that it was DDs original plan, but that potion and the DEs got in the way.

Good Morning, everyone (moves over to Our Little Sunshine's personal thread, still giggling) sunny

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Nov 19, 2005 7:37 am (#89 of 236)

T brightwater- I also do not think Harry will kill LV, he will vanquish him, but this does not mean he will kill him. Curious to see how it all works out...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Nov 19, 2005 10:42 am (#90 of 236)

The murder thing is an interesting dilemma. Ordinarily I would not kill anyone, but if I met Satan/Evil Incarnate, and had the power to kill/destroy him, I would do it because it would be for the good of all mankind. I could rid the world of evil and I would be willing to kill to achieve that end. This is how I see what Harry has to do - he must kill, when he normally would not dream of doing so, in order to rid the wizarding world of the ultimate evil. Murder is terrible, but when it is for the good of the entire population, then the act can be tolerated/acceptable.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

RoseMorninStar - Nov 19, 2005 11:35 am (#91 of 236)

Ann, it is also my feeling that I would rather die than murder someone. I think that feeling is shared by a good number of people. That said, this is not a straightforward case of his life or mine. I think it would have come down to 'both Snape and Dumbledore would have died'. That, while still no easy choice, puts things in a bit of a different light. Especially if Dumbledore had something up his sleeve, as I think he does, and he had requested this of Snape should such a situation arise. What Dumbledore has up his sleeve exactly, I am not certain. But, I could imagine, if Dumbledore had requested such a thing, how difficult that would be for someone, and hence, the argument in the forest.

T Brightwater, kage, T Vrana, you are not alone. I too think that Harry will vanquish Voldemort in the end but he will not directly kill him. I am sorry to repeat this for anyone who has already read it, but it is one of my major reasons for thinking that Harry's scar is one of the Horcruxes (but that it was created as one in error/by accident).

I think that when the final showdown between Harry & Voldemort occurs, Harry will think that he is a goner because he still has one Horcrux remaining to find & destroy. When Voldemort "AK's" Harry, the deadly curse will hit Harry and once again rebound (the reason I think it will rebound has something to do with the 'glint in Dumbledore's eye' at the end of GoF, AND whatever plan Dumbledore had with his 'death' -real or faked-). When this final AK rebounds upon Voldemort he will destroy his own last Horcrux, and thereby be vanquished.

Harry, as foretold in the prophecy, has a 'power' to vanquish the dark lord. What would be his 'power' that no one else has?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Nov 19, 2005 9:10 pm (#92 of 236)

Rose MorninStar, ever since I decided that the scar is probably a horcrux, I've felt the way you describe in above post. But, the only thing is the part of the prophecy which says "at the hand of the other". Don't have book, can't quote exactly but you know the line...

The only thing I can think of for getting around Harry killing Vold but "at the hand of the other" is Wormtail, the silver hand and the life debt he owes Harry...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Diagon Nilly - Nov 19, 2005 10:07 pm (#93 of 236)

The only thing I can think of for getting around Harry killing Vold but "at the hand of the other" is Wormtail, the silver hand and the life debt he owes Harry...

"At the hand of the other" . . .technically Wormtail does have Voldemort's hand, since it's Voldemort's magic that spawned it. So, good point you have there.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Nov 20, 2005 7:55 am (#94 of 236)

I should rephrase my thought above. I do not think Harry will AK or otherwises make a direct attempt to kill LV. But he will vanquish him, this may include LV's death caused indirectly by something Harry does. An example someone came up with elsewhere some weeks ago, Dorothy killing the Wicked Witch of the West while trying to save Scarecrow.

The witch sets fire to Scarecrow. Dorothy tries to put out the fire with a bucket of water, but hits the Wicked Witch who melts. Technically, Dorothy killed, vanquished, the Wicked Witch. But she was not trying to kill her, and if the Wicked Witch had not set fire to Scarecrow, Dorothy would not have accidently melted her. So in a way, the Wicked Witch caused her own demise. Brilliant, really. Dorothy's love for Scarecrow, and the Witch's own evil, defeat the Wicked Witch.

So, I see Harry vanquishing LV in a similar fashion, not direct like an AK or throwing him off a tower, but indirectly by an action to save someone else (or himself).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Ann - Nov 20, 2005 8:43 am (#95 of 236)

I actually think Harry will kill Voldemort directly, but not with an AK. Snape is clearly right when he tells him that he shouldn't use Unforgivables--he hasn't got the nerve or the ability...to hate. Harry's strength is in his ability to love, and love strongly, despite all the hardship he's been through. His ability to love (his parents and Sirius) is the reason he wants to kill Voldemort himself, and Dumbledore seems to approve this.

So I assume that his love will somehow be involved in whatever manner he ultimately finds to kill Voldemort. But I think it's going to be intentional, not an accident. (The Wizard of Oz is a very different kind of book--and one can come up with lots of examples where the hero/ine does kill the villain.) And I'm afraid it will involve something happening to Ginny, who is clearly being set up as the most important love of all.

Way off topic by now, but, hey, it happens.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Diagon Nilly - Nov 20, 2005 9:29 am (#96 of 236)

..hmmm like while running away from LV, Harry accidently leads him into the locked room at the MoM...which has been blasted open mid-battle. While in there, Harry remains unaffected while LV crumbles.

Heh, can you tell I put some thought into the end? Though this is a subject for another thread.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

RoseMorninStar - Nov 20, 2005 3:48 pm (#97 of 236)

Well, the prophecy says that the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord... so that leads me to believe that Harry has something special...something that is not common. The only two things I can think of is that it has something to do with Harry's green eyes (same as Lily's) or it has something to do with powers that Voldemort transferred to Harry the night he tried to kill him (that is where the possible scar/Horcrux comes in).

I am not quite sure it should be taken so literally 'at the hand of the other' means BY HAND, literally. Although, one could argue the use of a wand (which is held in a hand) could be interpreted as 'at the hand'.

I have used the Dorothy/ Wizard of Oz analogy before T Vrana, and I think it is an apt one. I do not think Harry will Kill Voldemort directly...but it will occur with a 'Dorothy' type situation. I think the idea of Wormtail's 'hand' being the weapon is a very interesting one...but then I wonder... why would it be Harry who is the 'one with the power to vanquish the dark lord'?? Unless it has something to do with the life debt (which I suppose is quite possible).

Boy...how long is it going to take her to write the last book?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Nov 20, 2005 5:38 pm (#98 of 236)

Rose - "....or it has something to do with powers that Voldemort transferred to Harry the night he tried to kill him"

I don't think it will be that because the powers Harry has are ones that Voldemort knows not - if it is the powers that Voldemort transferred to Harry, then he would surely know them.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

hawick girl - Nov 20, 2005 8:56 pm (#99 of 236)

Love. It has been drummed into us long enough (since the begining) and it will be the end of Voldie. IMO

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Saracene - Nov 20, 2005 10:29 pm (#100 of 236)

I can just see it:

Harry: meesa loves you Voldemort! Gimme a hug!

Voldemort: Whaaat??? ARGH! (crumbles into dust)

Seriously though, I somehow don't see Harry killing Voldemort directly "by hand" either. And I definitely think the locked room in MoM containing "terrible power" hasn't been introduced for no reason.

I however think that, unlike Dorothy, Harry would have every single intent to kill Voldemort.

Lady Arabella Wed May 25, 2011 9:44 pm

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Nov 20, 2005 10:44 pm (#101 of 236)

Diagon Nilly wrote -- "at the hand of the other" technically Wormtail does have Voldemort's hand, since it's Voldemort's magic that spawned it. So, good point you have there.

Thank you for your vote of confidence, but I actually meant it in reverse-- Not that the silver hand would be Vold's but Harry's. The speciality of the silver hand is that it is said to crush a twig with no effort and slice through Harry's bonds. So I was thinking if Harry, Vold and Wormtail were in the "climax scene" with Wormtail having to decide with whom his loyalties lay, it would be Harry. The hand would come down on Vold and save Harry's soul splitting.

I've been thinking about the murder/soul splitting thing, and agree with those who have said that murder is murder. Especially in the WW where practically everyone carries a wand. I asked myself if a decent cop (the equivalent of an auror) needed to defend him/herself from an attacker, a bullet to the chest is not necessary. A bullet to the kneecap is just as effective in the short term.

It may not be relavent to this discussion, but with the exception of the dearest circumstances, especially in a world where everyone is potentially "armed", I'm thinking there's no way anyone would AK another except utter rage/dementia.

Sorry, this has very little to with the forest conversation... to tie it in to above reference, I'm thinking since Wormtail is already doomed in all the killing he has done in Vold's name (notice how Vold didn't actually kill Cedric) that Wormtail may sacrifice his soul at the end for Harry... you know, kill Vold.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

hawick girl - Nov 20, 2005 10:55 pm (#102 of 236)

Hitting a suspect in the kneecap is enough to put them on the ground, but they still can squeeze the trigger of their gun and kill the cop. I think that (generally) cops shoot for the center mass, and not one of the extremeties (better accuracy).

What do you mean murder is murder? Do you mean that what we see as murder in the RW is murder in the WW? What about manslaughter, and other forms of unintentional deaths?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Nov 20, 2005 11:23 pm (#103 of 236)

hawick girl, I guess I'm thinking that a wand has many levels of power. It's not a lethal weapon only- so if someone comes at you with a wand you can blast them with a Jelly Arms Charm or something and go from there. If your attacker AK's you before you get a chance, you've got no chance anyway...

I'm not saying a Jelly Arms Charm is going to finish off Vold, but I'm feeling like Harry "finishing off" Vold does not include Harry taking a life.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Amilia Smith - Nov 21, 2005 3:16 am (#104 of 236)

On those lines, I find it interesting that the DEs in the MoM battle at the end of OotP used such wimpy spells. They were not throwing Unforgivables right and left, like you would expect them to, but rather such spells as Tarantellegra, of all things.

Mills.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Nov 21, 2005 8:34 am (#105 of 236)

Mills, yes that's interesting about the MoM.

I suppose, too, since our tale takes place in the UK, a more clear comparison could be "bobbies" rather than "cops". But in the case of both people holding guns in the "real world" versus WW, there aren't too many options for disarming your attacker. So if you're a "decent" cop, you'd shoot them in the knee or shoulder to get them down, not just go for killing them.

Of course, as I mentioned before there are times when it's absolutely necessary to "kill or be killed". I know personally what the "fight or flight" mechanism of the brain feels like and you aren't going to stand around analysing the fairest defense...

But in the case of wands, it is very different than a gun. You have many defensive options, most of which are not lethal, only one of which is.

Back to forest conversation, I do not think DD would ask Snape to perform such an act, even if DD thinks death isn't so bad. I could see him reminding Snape he agreed to participate in a plan to create the illusion, thereby becoming DE/Vold's "closest friend".

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Vaughn - Nov 21, 2005 9:19 am (#106 of 236)

All I can say about the shooting people in the knee caps or shoulders is: there is way to much television and movie contamination going on.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Steve Newton - Nov 21, 2005 9:25 am (#107 of 236)

I once did a list of all of the spells that I could find in the MOM battle. It is somewhere in the read-a-long thread for OOTP. While the unforgivables are not listed specifically very often there are references to several green spells which is the color of the AK. The unforgivablest of spells. Several other spells are only identified by their color so they may also have been used since I don't know what color they are. Wasn't Neville crucioed at the MOM?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Nov 21, 2005 12:44 pm (#108 of 236)

DD told LV there were things worse than death. Surely, whatever is worse is what will eventually happen to LV. I don't think Harry will kill LV, although I do expect Harry to be the one to bring about his downfall, although perhaps a bit inadvertently, rather than by a direct intentional action.

I don't think DD directed Severus to kill him prior to the tower scene. If DD is actually dead (and I don't think he is), then I think that DD would only want Severus to AK him if he was dying already.

Once DD knew about the unbreakable vow, what would we expect him to do? "Oh, too bad, I guess one of us will have to die." And then try to figure out who the best one to die should be? I don't think DD would be that fatalistic. I think he'd try to come up with a solution. I don't think he'd wouldn't want Severus to truly murder him. Nor do I think he'd tell him, "well, sorry, but you'll just have to die."

It makes sense to me that DD would work toward a solution that both solves for the vow, and solves for the problem of murder.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

deletedaccount - Nov 21, 2005 5:34 pm (#109 of 236)

Neville was crucioed in OotP in the MoM by Bellatrix.

I think what may happen is that Harry destroys all the horcruxes and then during the final battle Harry jumps in front of Ginny as Voldemort is trying to AK Ginny. The AK hits Harry, killing him. Voldemort tries again to AK Ginny and it bounces back and kills Voldemort. Voldemort just doesn't seem to learn his lessons.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

hawick girl - Nov 22, 2005 2:22 pm (#110 of 236)

wynnleaf wrote in Post 108

DD told LV there were things worse than death. Surely, whatever is worse is what will eventually happen to LV.

I think that those things worse than death already happened to a certain degree. He was "less than the meanest ghost" for 13 years. I also think that there are worse things in store for Voldie.

I wonder what Harry would gather from the conversation if Hagrid put his memory into the Pensieve. I think that is one of the ways that Harry (and the readers as well) will find out, unless DD kept a memory for Harry to explain things better.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Brightwater - Nov 23, 2005 12:08 pm (#111 of 236)

If DD was planning his death in some way, he darn well better have remembered to leave Harry the Pensieve and a lot of little bottles in his will.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Vulture - Nov 25, 2005 10:54 am (#112 of 236)

If he stops Draco, the DEs will get alarmed and start acting in the unimitable way DEs act, getting everybody (DD, Draco, Harry, himself, the whole school) in extreme immediate danger. So in a split second Severus decides to kill DD and take Draco and the DEs with him out of Hogwarts for at the cost of making himself a murderer (big sacrifice, not at all the decision of a coward). This decision might well be in accordance with DD), it's what I can believe DD is pleading for, especially after consuming that mysterious potion (not a health drink) (kage- Nov 17, 2005 4:01 am (#79)

Hi, Kage:Took me a while !! _ in fact, the above inspired me to write a whole "essay" _ see below. Won't repeat any of it, but I'll just add that the DEs wouldn't have had a free run _ the Order were in their way. I've seen many posts (not just yours) that talk as if safety from the DEs depended on Dumbledore and/or Snape _ I don't like that. Anyway _ please read on !! ...

===========================================================

I feel that the theory of Dumbledore sacrificing his life for 'student safety' doesn't work:

(a) he couldn't know 100% that Snape would be able to take charge of the Death Eaters so completely that they'd leave straightaway without more killing: Snape does so by force of personality _ a tricky and changeable thing to rely on;

(b) Neither Dumbledore nor Snape could know that the Death Eaters on the Tower were all that were in Hogwarts.

(c) Besides, there's Dumbledore's wider responsibilities, both to students and others _ how safe are they all now that he's dead ?

Also, based on how Dumbledore was in Books 4 and 5, my feeling is that, faced with Death Eaters, his instinct is to fight the good fight. Yes, I know _ he's without a wand, but basically, it's four DEs (we can exclude Malfoy) against Dumbledore, Snape and invisible Harry, with two wands between them. Tight, but Harry has got out of tighter situations. OK, there's the issue of Dumbledore wanting to keep Harry's presence secret, but Snape could still "Accio" Harry's wand and have it in Dumbledore's grip before the DEs realised. Or even more simply _ in Book 3, wasn't Lupin able _ with one spell _ to magic three wands away from three people who were off-guard, into his own hand ? _ Snape could do the same, before the DEs realised what was going on.

(By the way, Dumbledore's freezing of Harry is inconsistent with his deliberately and willingly dying: think about it _ if Dumbledore has learned anything from earlier in the evening, it's that freezing him will make Harry do exactly what he does do: lash out the minute the spell lifts. That could have been disastrous. If Dumbledore had any foreknowledge of what was to happen, it would have been safer to constrain Harry with an order _ at worst, if Harry disobeyed (which he had sworn not to), he would do so with some judgement.)

As for Dumbledore's death being to protect Snape's spying credibility with Voldemort, that doesn't hold up either. "Spinner's End" does not show someone on edge, worried about Voldemort's trust, or eager to prove himself _ quite the contrary; Snape is more relaxed, confident and amusing than we've ever seen him. And it's not an act: the sisters are there on an errand which would get them the chop if they breathed a word to Lord V or anyone else; they're the ones under pressure, not Snape. As for Wormtail _ yes, Lord V probably has put Wormtail there partly to watch Snape, but mainly , I feel, to be watched by him. Yes, Lord V probably doesn't trust Snape 100% _ in the same general sense that he distrusts all his servants to some extent. After all, Lord V counts no-one as a friend (and Snape is the only significant DE character not to boast of Lord V's friendship or special trust (in Spinner's End, his carefully measured claim _ so unlike his usual way of taking credit _ is only for his " value to the Dark Lord" arising specifically from Dumbledore's trust in him _ so might an efficient pawn refer modestly to its value to the chess-player. (In the way of these things, this, paradoxically, suggests to me that Snape knows Lord V better than most.)

If Lord V was really suspicious of Snape, he would surely put someone more effective than Wormtail on the case. Surely, it's mainly (all right, not 100%, as I've said above) the other way around: we know from Book 4 that Voldemort despises Wormtail for being low in brainpower, loyalty and courage (oddly enough, the qualities of the three non-Slytherin Houses !! _ but never mind) _ in other words, someone who needs to be watched for possible treachery but is a deadly bore to have around. So he puts Wormtail somewhere where (a) he doesn't have to worry about him, and (b) doesn't have to see him. Snape's brief threat to get Wormtail more dangerous duties shows where the real power in the house lies. Also, if Wormtail does betray the Dark Side, his most recent information will be only about Snape and Spinner's end, not Voldemort.

So _ if Dumbledore did fake his death (which I doubt), or arrange and/or foresee his real one (which I also doubt), it's unlikely to be for 'student safety' or for Snape's spying credentials. (Even as I say it, however, I realise that I'm relying on the plot logic of a writer who managed to make a fiendishly laughing knife-wielding maniac turn out to be innocent !! _ Dumbledore's line that "Sirius has not behaved like an innocent man" has to rank as one of the all-time understatements in all literature.) But anyway _ there is also no evidence (nor have I seen anyone suggesting) that Dumbledore had pre-arranged his landing into the trap on the Tower. Putting this with the fact that Malfoy concealed his plans (or most details, anyway) from Snape, we know that Snape could not have expected Dumbledore to arrive on the Tower, or have made any precise arrangement (as opposed to general catch-all guidelines) for it with him. Look at how Snape arrives:

... the door burst open and there stood Snape, his wand clutched in his hand as his black eyes swept the scene ... ,

after which JKR lists everyone there (except Harry) as Snape looks from one to the next. This is not a relaxed evening stroller who knows what he's going to find _ this is one seriously red-alert wizard. Read the passage aloud and it hits you like a bullet from a gun, not least the sound and rhythm of it _ it's the best bit of writing in the scene, if not the whole chapter.

Much has been said (in Snape's defence) about all the supposed telepathy between him and Dumbledore _ behind Dumbledore's mumbled pleas. But there is no evidence of this. Indeed, if they're communicating telepathically, why does Dumbledore speak at all ? _ the Death Eaters are "cowed", so there's no pressure on Snape. Nor is there any evidence that Snape has any inkling of Harry's presence _ yes, his defenders would say that he's just pretending, but there's no evidence. This isn't good for Snape's defence, given that Dumbledore was all for Harry revealing himself to Snape moments before (when Dumbledore still trusted him).

(I haven't been on the Lexicon for a few days, so apologies if the above repeats stuff said already by others.)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Nov 25, 2005 6:58 pm (#113 of 236)

But anyway _ there is also no evidence (nor have I seen anyone suggesting) that Dumbledore had pre-arranged his landing into the trap on the Tower.

Actually, Vulture, I have suggested that DD did know about the tower and presented 'evidence' that it could be the case. Of course, nothing is certain, otherwise none of us would be here at all.

The evidence that DD knew:

1) DD seems intent on getting Snape to him.

2) Snape resides in the dungeons

3) The astronomy tower is about as far away from the dungeons as one can get

4) DD seems to suspect that something is up as he tells Harry to talk to no one and go get Snape

5) DD seems to have had no intention of fighting or letting Harry fight

6) With all this in mind, why not land in the entrance hall instead of picking the point farthest away from Snape, and the one most likely to land Harry in trouble by sending him through several floors to get to Snape? Odd choice unless DD had another reason to be on the tower.

The bigger theory (DD's not dead and didn't go soft in the head in HBP)takes evidence from the entire book and is on the Was the major death real thread. Won't repeat it all here, but...

DD to Malfoy on the tower:

...and, as you say, right under my nose.

Option 1: DD is admitting Malfoy pulled this off, right under his nose.

Option 2: DD is pointing out that Malfoy has been skulking around all year, poisoning students, right under DD's very prominent, most powerful and brilliant wizard, crooked, broken twice, did you really think I didn't notice in my own castle, nose.

Not evidence, but I choose option 2.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Nov 25, 2005 9:02 pm (#114 of 236)

T Vrana wrote - "With all this in mind, why not land in the entrance hall instead of picking the point farthest away from Snape, and the one most likely to land Harry in trouble by sending him through several floors to get to Snape? Odd choice unless DD had another reason to be on the tower."

I agree with your point of view, but I think we're led to believe that DD and Harry are going to the tower because the Dark Mark was cast directly above it. If I recall correctly, there is canon referring to that.

However, the canon is Harry's thoughts and not DD's words. DD could easily have been expecting it to occur. I posted on another thread that it was Snape who cast the Mark in order to signal privately to DD (or even Dobby). If you reread, it dances around whether the DE "Gibbons" actually cast the Mark...but that's another thread.

PS-- I agree with Option 2 regarding DD's nose...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Vulture - Nov 26, 2005 7:04 am (#115 of 236)

The evidence that DD knew:

1) DD seems intent on getting Snape to him.

2) Snape resides in the dungeons

3) The astronomy tower is about as far away from the dungeons as one can get

4) DD seems to suspect that something is up as he tells Harry to talk to no one and go get Snape

5) DD seems to have had no intention of fighting or letting Harry fight

6) With all this in mind, why not land in the entrance hall instead of picking the point farthest away from Snape, and the one most likely to land Harry in trouble by sending him through several floors to get to Snape? Odd choice unless DD had another reason to be on the tower.

T Vrana - Nov 25, 2005 6:58 pm (#113)

DD seems to suspect that something is up as he tells Harry to talk to no one and go get Snape

_ Well, yes, we all know "something is up" at this point. But the no-talk order is in line with his policy all evening. He seems to be making Harry and Horcruxes central to his strategies.

DD seems to have had no intention of fighting or letting Harry fight

_ I accept the part about Harry, and that's in line with Dumbledore's policy all evening. But there's no evidence for the other _ if he'd had his wand, we don't know what he'd have done.

With all this in mind, why not land in the entrance hall instead of picking the point farthest away from Snape, and the one most likely to land Harry in trouble by sending him through several floors to get to Snape? Odd choice unless DD had another reason to be on the tower.

_ Well, it's only an odd choice if one has deliberately ruled out the reason Book 6 gives (or, OK, seems to give, if we're being sceptical) _ that he saw the Dark Mark, didn't expect it and shot up to the Tower to investigate. He was, however, getting weaker all the time, and needed Snape to give him similar help to what he gave with the ring-curse. So _ have we compelling proof to reject the book's reason ?

It's important to remember that JKR doesn't have Dumbledore in total control of strategy, throughout the books. In Book 1, the Stone would have been stolen were it not for Our Trio. In Book 2, similar for the Chamber _ Dumbledore said he knew the "who", but not the "how". In Book 4, he never spotted the DE in Hogwarts. In Book 5, he said "I am not leaving to go into hiding. Fudge will soon regret that he ever dislodged me from Hogwarts, I promise you" _ maybe he was right, but we'll never know, because the only reason that the Ministry accepted that Voldemort had returned was because Harry's rash journey induced Voldemort to show himself.

I'm not putting Dumbledore down _ what I'm saying is that, by JKR's past standards, the 'official' explanation (see my reply to (6), above) for what Dumbledore does is plausible enough.

----------------------------------------------------------

Option 1: DD is admitting Malfoy pulled this off, right under his nose.

Option 2: DD is pointing out that Malfoy has been skulking around all year, poisoning students, right under DD's very prominent, most powerful and brilliant wizard, crooked, broken twice, did you really think I didn't notice in my own castle, nose. (T Vrana - Nov 25, 2005 6:58 pm (#113)

Dumbledore tells Malfoy that he knew what he was up to all year. However, he seems to indicate that he didn't know about the Vanishing Cabinet. I don't put it more strongly than "seems to indicate" _ and my main reason for believing it is JKR's convention of having two protagonists, near the end, having (often incongruous) long explanatory conversations for our benefit. But even if Dumbledore knew everything, I see no evidence that he would have expected a Dark Mark on the Tower. Malfoy says "we (him and his DEs) decided" to put one up there, and that he kept all this from Snape.

==========================================================

By the way, can you tell me which post no. on the "Was the major death real" thread ? _ thanks.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Death - Nov 26, 2005 7:29 am (#116 of 236)

I have suggested that DD did know about the tower and presented 'evidence' that it could be the case. Of course, nothing is certain, otherwise none of us would be here at all. (T Vrana - Nov 25, 2005 6:58 pm - #113)

HE CERTAINLY DIDN'T SEEM PLEASED TO SEE ME.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madame Pomfrey - Nov 26, 2005 6:12 pm (#117 of 236)

Why did Dumbledore choose the tower? Could it be that maybe after seeing the dark mark, he believed Trelawney? Trelawney said to Harry, "Dumbledore chooses to ignore the warnings the cards show-The Lightning Struck Tower,Calamity,Disaster, coming all the time."

What She predicted: "Two of spades, conflict; seven of spades, an ill omen; ten of spades, violence;. Knave of spades, a dark young man, possibly troubled, one who dislikes the questioner."

Could he have stuck that info in the back of his mind?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Nov 26, 2005 10:18 pm (#118 of 236)

vulture- We know that untrained, young, unsuspecting wizards can do magic without wands (releasing snakes, putting 'foes' belongings out of reach, levitating out of harms’ way, blowing up aunts, ok Harry had a little training, but no wand, and no spell), so I have confidence that a 150 year old, most brilliant wizard in the WW can do some basic magic without a wand, such as:

1) retrieve his own wand

2) retrieve and use Harry's wand

3) summon Fawkes

He does none of the above. I suspect because he chooses not to as he has a mission with Malfoy. (He does, however, spend many, many, many minutes conversing with Malfoy, so I contend he was not too weak to do a little magic, if that was his intent).

DD offers Malfoy options, and tells him it is his mercy, DD's, that counts. Either DD is a blowhard, or he does still have the ability to act. I see no evidence DD is a blowhard.

As for the whole theory, the posts evolved on dead or not and major death, and so many of the posters here have read it. I hate to put them through it again. I will try to find the most comprehensive, but it gets very long as it encompasses the whole book of clues, not just any one chapter or moment..

m&m shadow- DD seems to go to the tower because he sees the Dark Mark. Moody/Crouch Jr. seems to drink from his hip flask because that is what Moody is known to do. But everything is not what it seems, which is why we're all here...

m pomfrey- I think you have a point that while DD may have seemed to ignore Trelawney, the most brilliant people I know always listen, they may not always respond, but they listen...There is a saying that slips my mind (I'm not one of the brilliant people), but I'm sure it has to do with fools talking, and the wise listening...

Death- You weren't there...sorry

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

RoseMorninStar - Nov 27, 2005 2:04 am (#119 of 236)

Madame Pomfrey, I agree with T Vrana. I think that Dumbledore did listen to Prof. Trelawney.. she just wanted him to act..or react, to her prediction. Dumbledore seems to handle things in a different manner than she expected him to. I notice that Dumbledore reacts to Harry the same way. When he tells Dumbledore that Draco is up to something...Harry gets upset that Dumbledore does not seem to react the way he wants him to...But I think that Dumbledore did listen.. and use the information. He just didn't let Harry know it..probably for his own good. Same with Trelawney.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madame Pomfrey - Nov 27, 2005 7:47 am (#120 of 236)

That's true, MorninStar. They expect Dumbledore to get excited and show more interest than he appears to. Dumbledore, being the great thinker that he is, seems to digest and store this information. He is calm and shows little emotion which could be interpreted as disinterest or disbelief.

TVrana,I agree that Dumbledore,the greatest wizard,could have easily overtook Malfoy a number of ways but he chose not to. Furthermore,his questioning of Malfoy and his calm polite conversation with the DE seemed to me that he was stalling for time. He was waiting for Snape to get there so they could go through with the plan.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Nov 27, 2005 8:25 am (#121 of 236)

Death- I mispoke last night. You were lurking around the tower that night, hoping for a chance at DD, but you put your hopes in the likes of Draco, Alecto and Amyscus. How disappointing it must have been when you had to settle for Gibbon...

M pomfrey- I agree that DD seemed to be stalling, and Snape's arrival prompted DD to prompt him, urgently, into action. Without a plan the 'please' makes no sense...

I don't think it was please kill me, but please follow through with the plan that will make it look as though you've killed me, and take your place as the second most hated wizard in the WW. Perhaps, for Harry, it is a tie.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madame Pomfrey - Nov 27, 2005 8:53 am (#122 of 236)

T, Where is your post on Snape casting the dark mark?I must have missed it.I often wonder who actually cast it and that subject interests me.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Nov 27, 2005 9:47 am (#123 of 236)

Madame Pomfrey, I posted about Snape casting the Dark Mark. It's on "Was the Major Death Real" thread, posts #518-520...

T Vrana, I agree with you and was simply pointing out (the obvious) the canon that may support otherwise.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Death - Nov 27, 2005 2:02 pm (#124 of 236)

Death- I mispoke last night. You were lurking around the tower that night, hoping for a chance at DD, but you put your hopes in the likes of Draco, Alecto and Amyscus. How disappointing it must have been when you had to settle for Gibbon... (T Vrana - Nov 27, 2005 8:25 am -#121 of 123)

NO, I DO NOT "HOPE FOR CHANCES". I DO NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING, IN FACT. AFTER ALL, EVERYONE COMES TO ME SOONER OR LATER.

AS FOR "DISAPPOINTMENT" .... I'M SORRY ?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Nov 27, 2005 3:04 pm (#125 of 236)

I'm hardly having any opportunity to post lately (hard to post with sick fretful toddler in arms), but somebody said something that I just felt was incorrect. Somebody (Vulture?) said that there was no evidence that DD and Severus were having any sort of legilimens communication on the tower, and that it was pure speculation.

As I see it, the only evidence that one might possibly see of two powerful wizards communicating through ligilimency, when both are well versed in nonverbal spells and occlumency/legilimency, would be eye contact. That's it. That's all a 3rd person/character would see. Since we see everything from Harry's point of view, that is all we might expect to see from his point of view. And guess what?? Surprise, surprise, that's exactly what he sees.

So, minus a ridiculously revealing "hey, Severus, look me in the eye, will you?" what in the world would we expect to see as evidence of legilimency? Only some sort of deliberate eye contact. And that's what we got. Not a glance, not a glimpse, but direct and seemingly deliberate eye contact.

So, yes, there is direct evidence of legilimency on the tower.

Lady Arabella Thu May 26, 2011 8:20 pm

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

timrew - Nov 27, 2005 3:57 pm (#126 of 236)

Wow! We have the real Grim Reaper on this forum!

Can I call you 'Grim'?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

hawick girl - Nov 27, 2005 6:21 pm (#127 of 236)

what about Grimmy?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Vaughn - Nov 28, 2005 2:45 pm (#128 of 236)

Death, Do you really look like Brad Pitt?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

-

Madame Pomfrey - Nov 28, 2005 2:47 pm (#129 of 236)

Thanks Me and My. Will pop on over to that thread.*pop*

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Diagon Nilly - Nov 28, 2005 4:45 pm (#130 of 236)

I figured death looks like the classic grim reaper, but he has Norm MacDonald's voice.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Marie E. - Nov 28, 2005 6:40 pm (#131 of 236)

Norm McDonald's voice? *snerk*

Let's get back on topic, folks...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Saracene - Nov 28, 2005 9:45 pm (#132 of 236)

Hello Death! How is Binky?

Back on topic... it's interesting that Snape and Dumbledore would have their little argument in the forest. It's not like it's a usual place for either of them to hang around. Makes me think that whatever they were discussing,Dumbledore didn't want anyone to listen to it, including his neighbours in the portraits.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

azi - Nov 29, 2005 6:26 am (#133 of 236)

I agree, Saracene. It reminded me of Harry and Krum's discussion in GoF, although somehow I doubt Dumbledore and Snape's conversation was about a girl! Krum, however, did not wish to be heard. Any other occurrences of people having discussions in the forest that we know of? Ooo, yes, Snape and Quirrell in PS!

Seems the forest is the place to go for unheard conversations...in theory anyway.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madame Pomfrey - Nov 29, 2005 7:59 am (#134 of 236)

Good catch Saracene! The portraits even know about the horcruxes. If the conversation is concerning Dumbledore's faked death, Snape and Dumbledore are possibly the only ones who know of "the plan."

We still don't know much about the forest conversation Snape had with Quirrell either.

I think either Dumbledore's death was devised by Dumbledore for a very well thought out unknown reason and Snape is on the good side, or . . . . Snape is evil, always has been, and actually killed Dumbledore.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Nov 29, 2005 8:34 am (#135 of 236)

I agree and I cannot help but think the centaurs know about what occurs in the forest. When they showed up at the funeral, I had a feeling they were there for show.

In "Seer Overheard" chapter as well, when Trelawney says Firenze thought her prediction was "comical", I thought that was a clue for us of centaurs knowing more than what appears to be happening.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Vulture - Nov 29, 2005 8:54 am (#136 of 236)

I'm hardly having any opportunity to post lately (hard to post with sick fretful toddler in arms), but somebody said something that I just felt was incorrect. Somebody (Vulture?) said that there was no evidence that DD and Severus were having any sort of legilimens communication on the tower, and that it was pure speculation.

As I see it, the only evidence that one might possibly see of two powerful wizards communicating through ligilimency, when both are well versed in nonverbal spells and occlumency/legilimency, would be eye contact. That's it. That's all a 3rd person/character would see. Since we see everything from Harry's point of view, that is all we might expect to see from his point of view. And guess what?? Surprise, surprise, that's exactly what he sees.

So, minus a ridiculously revealing "hey, Severus, look me in the eye, will you?" what in the world would we expect to see as evidence of legilimency? Only some sort of deliberate eye contact. And that's what we got. Not a glance, not a glimpse, but direct and seemingly deliberate eye contact.

So, yes, there is direct evidence of legilimency on the tower. ~wynnleaf - Nov 27, 2005 3:04 pm (#125)

(I don't know if I was the only one to say what you referred to, but yes, I did say it.)

I don't mean to be rude (I mean that), but you've just contradicted yourself.

First, you say that the only thing a third party would see would be eye contact, and that that's what Harry sees. I agree with that _ in fact, I'll go even farther: even if Harry couldn't see their eye contact, due to the particular position he was frozen in, that wouldn't rule out their doing Legilimency. But something not being ruled out is not direct evidence of its existence.

You then say "minus a ridiculously revealing "hey, Severus, look me in the eye, will you?" what in the world would we expect to see as evidence of legilimency? Only some sort of deliberate eye contact. And that's what we got." So you're not only admitting that there's no direct evidence, you're saying that there could not be direct evidence. I agree (not perhaps 100% _ I'm sure JKR could have managed, not a "ridiculously revealing", but revealing, statement if she chose _ but 99%).

You then say "So, yes, there is direct evidence of legilimency on the tower."

Look, I ought to say that I don't discount possibilities. Where I tend to step in and contradict is where people take unproven possibilities, base conclusions on them (no, I'm not saying you're doing that here), and then others base more on them , and so on.

Being logged out !!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madame Pomfrey - Nov 29, 2005 10:55 am (#137 of 236)

n "Seer Overheard" chapter as well, when Trelawney says Firenze thought her prediction was "comical", I thought that was a clue for us of centaurs knowing more than what appears to be happening.

I like that,Me And My. The portraits may not know what’s going but I bet the centaurs sure do.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Brightwater - Nov 29, 2005 10:59 am (#138 of 236)

Hey, Death, how's Susan these days?

Saracene, well spotted. (Here's a list for Mugglenet - Places to avoid for a private conversation: 1) The Hog's Head 2) The Headmaster's Office 3) The Library 4) The Forest 5) Anywhere within 100 yards of Fred and George...)

Whatever it was that Snape didn't want to do, I'm inclined to think that the "investigations in his own house," whether that refers to Slytherin or Spinner's End, has to do with DD's search for Horcruxes. We don't know that many places where Voldemort has been where he would be likely to hide something; the Slytherin dungeons seem likely, and it's possible that LV lived in Spinner's End after leaving Hogwarts.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Nov 29, 2005 1:16 pm (#139 of 236)

T Brightwater, that's an interesting thought that DD meant investigations regarding horcruxes. By that time, they already knew Draco was trying to kill DD, so what was there to investigate other than the "how" part -- although that was obviously important, too.

Vulture,

Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like your equating "evidence" with "proof." Direct eye contact is evidence. It is not proof. Knowing that there was direct eye contact shows us that the possibility was there for legilimency. That's "evidence." It does not show us proof that legilimency occurred.

I can't imagine why JKR would put in any clear or obvious proof. She certainly wanted Harry to be convinced DD was murdered by Severus. I'm guessing DD wanted that, so that everyone would think that Severus had fulfilled the vow. If we're going to look for anything, it certainly isn't going to be any "proof" that Harry's character would see, and since we see practically everything from Harry's point of view, then we're not going to see proof, period. But we can look for evidence, and direct eye contact is evidence.

You know, we saw evidence that fake/Moody was really Crumb, Jr. It wasn't proof, but we saw it anyway (Crumb in Marauder's Map). If the book had cut off half-way through, to be continued in another book, how many would be speculating that Moody was really Crumb, Jr.? And it would seem maybe a silly theory. But the evidence was still there, wasn't it? Just not the proof.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

frogface - Nov 29, 2005 1:48 pm (#140 of 236)

I agree with everything Wynnleaf said...apart from calling Crouch “Crumb.” (heh heh)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Saracene - Nov 29, 2005 6:01 pm (#141 of 236)

T Brightwater, that's a very interesting thought! The only thing I could think of regarding Snape making investigations "in his house" was that it had something to do with Draco. But unless I'm mixing up the timeline we've already seen Snape trying to get Draco to fess up what he was up to, and we've seen Dumbledore show zero reaction when Harry told him about the overheard conversation. So why was it important to suggest that Dumbledore was once again telling Snape to investigate Draco, and why did Dumbledore put it so obliquely?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Nov 29, 2005 7:59 pm (#142 of 236)

Oh no! Can't believe I did that!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [

HR]T Brightwater - Nov 30, 2005 9:54 am (#143 of 236)

wynnleaf & Saracene, thanks for the encouragement!

Riddle is rather sentimental about some things, in an extremely warped and sick way. He hid one Horcrux in a place where he had committed a rather nasty act of magic. (BTW, I'm glad Jo didn't go into any details about that.) He hid another in his mother's childhood home, near where he had murdered his father and his family and managed to put the blame on his own uncle. According to DD (and I think he was right here), Tom Riddle was more attached to Hogwarts than he ever was to any person. It would make sense that he would want to hide a Horcrux somewhere in Hogwarts, though we don't know if he ever managed to do so.

He may have come back to Hogwarts looking for another object associated with one of the Founders, or he may have been looking for a place to hide a Horcrux he had already made. The most likely places are the Chamber of Secrets, the Room of Requirement (I think one of them is there), and somewhere in the Slytherin dorms, which would be easier for Snape to search than DD.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Nov 30, 2005 10:06 pm (#144 of 236)

This doesn't belong here, but I do think one horcrux is or was in the Riddle House. It is mentioned that no one lived there for very long after the murders because the house had a bad feeling about it (not exact quote, obviously). Bit of LV's soul hanging about could do that...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Wizadora - Dec 1, 2005 8:21 am (#145 of 236)

T. Brightwater - That is an interesting interpretation. If we are to assume that DD told Snape that he was looking for Horcruxes, that might explain why Snape helped after DD injured his hand and why DD asked for Snape on the tower. The conversation in the forest could have been DD, reminding Snape that he had agreed to help with the Horcrux search. This is an interesting plot development, because it means that there is someone who can help Harry in his Horcrux search. Snape will of course have to find creative ways to help Harry, who wouldn't accept his help I don't think. With the description of Spinners end, it is clear that Snape has a lot of books about something. Dark arts probably, and could have been very valuable to DD in his search and destroy mission.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Vulture - Dec 2, 2005 8:29 am (#146 of 236)

Re post #139: Wynnleaf, the words I used were "direct evidence". There is no direct evidence, i.e. proof, that Legilimency took place on the Tower. There is a clue, or indication, of the possibility of Legilimency on the Tower _ i.e the probable direct eye contact you mention. (I say "probable" because it's actually not stated that Dumbledore and Snape looked each other in the eye _ what is said is that "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was hatred and revulsion etched in the harsh lines of his face" before he raised his wand.)

I'm sure I make mistakes, but I try to choose my words as carefully as possible (subject to being always in a hurry as I generally get 1 hour log-on per day). I deliberately said " direct evidence" for emphasis; however, for my own part, I'm afraid I'm not willing to accept the use of the word "evidence" when the correct term would be something like "clue" or "indication". To use the word "evidence" in such a way can give the appearance of proof without the factual basis _ in short, it can cause confusion to readers.

(Whether it's a result of such confusion I don't know, but I've seen several posts that take it for granted that Snape and Dumbledore did do Legilimency on the Tower. Not your doing, I know that _ these were long before our "direct evidence" debate.)

=======================================================

Something else _ apologies if this has been discussed before and I missed it: what about the possibility that the Forest conversation is about the Defense Against The Dark Arts job ? It occurs to me that this would explain a lot.

Taking points in no particular order _ it's natural enough that Dumbledore would be quite exasperated if Snape, who (we and the school assume, though I can't remember him saying so, as such) for years would have given several sets of teeth to get his hands on the job, now "doesn't want to do it anymore". At the same time, Snape would have a right to be exasperated himself _ we know from Book 5 that he applied for the job several times, and it can't be nice to be finally given a job simply because no-one else will do it.

On the other hand, we are told elsewhere by Dumbledore that yes, the job is jinxed, and just how it's jinxed. Presumably, he would have let Snape know the risk he was in for before offering him the job.

Snape might have been all for it at the start but, later on, feel _ very validly _ that, given the general background of Book 6, his particular one year (if the jinx again comes true) may not end as harmlessly as, say, Lupin's.

Dumbledore may have tried to allay his fears through the year by various measures, but Snape may, by now, feel that he (Dumbledore) is "taking too much for granted" _ and given the ends that three of the previous five job holders (the other two being Lupin and Umbridge) came to, I'd agree with him.

The "investigations" into "his own House" _ well, the 'general background' I referred to above is certainly mixed up with Malfoy's attack attempts. What do we think ?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Saracene - Dec 2, 2005 5:09 pm (#147 of 236)

I never really got an impression that Snape was anything but satisfied about getting DADA position in the sixth book, or exasperated that he was given the job because no one else would do it.

I think also that, in trying to find an explanation for the forest conversation, it's necessary to look at it from the point of view of storytelling as well. JKR wouldn't mention this conversation for no reason, and there also has to be a very important reason why it was necessary to keep the topic of the conversation unexplained even after the end of the sixth book. If the conversation was about Snape being unhappy about DADA job, or being a double agent, or feeling overworked, why was it necessary to hide the topic and never specify what was it that Snape "didn't want to do anymore"?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Brightwater - Dec 2, 2005 8:22 pm (#148 of 236)

Good point, Saracene. OK, what does Snape do besides teach at Hogwarts and spy on Voldemort for DD (or vice versa)? He brews potions. Lupin reminds us of that at the Burrow.

There are cauldrons full of several potions in Slughorn's first lesson, some of which have apparently been working for a while, considering that Polyjuice Potion takes at least a month and it was ready for use, since Malfoy stole some and used it. Did Slughorn have time to get all those potions to that point, or were those things that Snape had already started?

Seriously, is it possible that DD has been taking too much Felix Felicis or should I check into St. Mungo's?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Dec 3, 2005 2:09 pm (#149 of 236)

Saracene wrote -- "If the conversation was about Snape being unhappy about DADA job, or being a double agent, or feeling overworked, why was it necessary to hide the topic and never specify what was it that Snape "didn't want to do anymore"?"

Precisely because there are so many different answers to "what were they talking about?". It's a classic cliff-hanger and just adds another "what is Snape about?" to our list of questions with no answers. But I agree, I don't feel it was about the DADA job.

T Brightwater, I am one of those people who believes in the power of the Merlin/Gandalf/DD/old bearded guy. I think DD evolved from needing Felix ages ago, just as he needs no invisibility cloak. To me, he represents a master in this story. And Felix seems to represent that perfect synchronicity that we all strive for but only a master achieves.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Vulture - Dec 7, 2005 11:37 am (#150 of 236)

I never really got an impression that Snape was anything but satisfied about getting DADA position in the sixth book, or exasperated that he was given the job because no one else would do it. (Saracene - Dec 2, 2005 5:09 pm (#147 of 149)

Oh, I'm sure he was satisfied, even triumphant, at first, when he got it. But he wouldn't be the first person, Muggle or wizard, fact or fiction, to be over the moon at finally getting a job he'd always wanted, only to be disenchanted (no pun intended !!) some months later. The Vow issue would play its part, and so also the one-year jinx, in what would seem to me a set of ever-increasing worries for him as the year wore on. If he began to have rows with Dumbledore which concerned the D.A.D.A. job in some way, the fact that the Head had always refused his previous applications (which we know about from Umbridge in Book 5) would come to his mind. (If you remember, he wasn't happy when she mentioned it.)

I think also that, in trying to find an explanation for the forest conversation, it's necessary to look at it from the point of view of storytelling as well. JKR wouldn't mention this conversation for no reason, and there also has to be a very important reason why it was necessary to keep the topic of the conversation unexplained even after the end of the sixth book. If the conversation was about Snape being unhappy about DADA job, or being a double agent, or feeling overworked, why was it necessary to hide the topic and never specify what was it that Snape "didn't want to do anymore"? (Saracene - Dec 2, 2005 5:09 pm (#147 of 149)

Good point _ but there could be all sorts of reasons which don't rule out the conversation being about his D.A.D.A job. Remember, the job is jinxed, and the jinx is linked not simply to Voldemort but to Voldemort's reasons for wanting to get back into Hogwarts. We know something of these issues, but there's more to come.

I should also point out that JKR, here, seems to have re-worked a previous passage about a pivotal, enigmatic conversation near the Forest involving Snape and raising questions about which side he's on _ I refer, of course, to his chat with Quirrell in Book 1. I don't know how relevant such a link may be, but it occurs to me that the Book 1 conversation seemed equally significant, to us and to Harry, when it occurred , but turned out to be a bit of a side issue (apart from Snape's role in it being different to what Harry had thought).

Lady Arabella Thu May 26, 2011 8:23 pm

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Brightwater - Dec 9, 2005 12:01 pm (#151 of 236)

One thing it does in the story is to increase Harry's (and therefore our) suspicions about Snape. Harry thinks the discussion was about the Katie Bell incident and Malfoy's possible role in it, so, knowing Jo, we can probably eliminate that as the actual subject. :-)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Vulture - Dec 12, 2005 11:04 am (#152 of 236)

In case I forget later:

May I wish you all
A Very Snape-Less Christmas
And A Dumbledore-ful New Year !!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Dec 12, 2005 6:53 pm (#153 of 236)

Yikes, you can't take Snape out of Christmas! What fun would that be? LOL

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Maddest Dragon - Dec 15, 2005 12:03 am (#154 of 236)

Hmmm... a couple of things jumped out at me while reading this thread (and I admit, I skimmed some of it):

The suggestion that Dumbledore had told Snape to confess to Harry that he had been the eavesdropper at the Hog's Head, and apologize. I don't think that was the subject of the conversation Hagrid overheard, but I do think it happened. That's exactly the sort of thing Dumbledore would have asked Snape to do. Not just asked, insisted--as firmly as he insisted that Harry get the memory from Slughorn, or even more so. I also think Snape lied to Dumbledore and said he had. Being a stellar Occlumens, he could get away with it, where nobody else could get away with lying to Dumbledore. Which would explain the whiteness on Dumbledore's face when Harry told him he had only just found out. That also makes Dumbledore's words that get Harry to talk especially poignant: "Harry, you were never a good Occlumens...."

Next, the suggestion that Dumbledore and Snape could have been communicating wordlessly on top of the tower:

So, minus a ridiculously revealing "hey, Severus, look me in the eye, will you?" what in the world would we expect to see as evidence of legilimency? Only some sort of deliberate eye contact. And that's what we got. Not a glance, not a glimpse, but direct and seemingly deliberate eye contact.

Actually, it doesn't say that they make eye contact. Dumbledore says his first pleading, "Severus..." before we're told that "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face." Could it be that Snape is not looking Dumbledore in the eye--and Dumbledore is pleading with him to do so? Even when he gazes at Dumbledore, it's only for a moment. That could be done without making true eye contact.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Saracene - Dec 15, 2005 12:14 am (#155 of 236)

I don't really see why Dumbledore would ask Snape to confess to Harry that he was the eavesdropper who's set Voldemort on his parents. What would that achieve? Harry wouldn't believe in million years that Snape was sorry for what he's done and the only result would be Harry's hatred intensifying by tenfold.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Maddest Dragon - Dec 15, 2005 12:33 am (#156 of 236)

I think it would achieve quite a lot. First, Harry deserves to know the truth--needs to know it, both to defeat Voldemort and for his own sake--and, if Dumbledore doesn't see that after the incidents in OotP, he's thicker than a brick wall. Second, hearing it in Snape's own words, with a sincere apology--note that half the deal was that he had to apologize--is the only thing that could possibly convince Harry that Snape's repentance was sincere. Which is shaky at best--Harry might just hate Snape more, nothing else accomplished. But it's still the only way.

Also, there is likely more to the story than Dumbledore has let on, and it may be that Snape had to tell Harry the rest of it.

In any case, I think this requirement would be as much for Snape's sake as Harry's. A bit like the way Harry presses Slughorn to give him the memory: "You liked her.... but you won't help her son." I can see Dumbledore telling Snape that, if his repentance really is sincere, he's called upon to help Harry now--and start by telling him the truth that he deserves to know. A bit reminiscent of when he told Snape and Sirius to shake hands and cease hostilities.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Lily Evans - Dec 16, 2005 11:25 am (#157 of 236)

I have always believed that Snape did know what Draco's task was from the beginning and that he shared that information with DD. I don't think Snape knew how Draco was going to do it, but he did know what he was to do. I believe DD believed it was necessary for Snape to step in order to save DRACO. DD sacrificed himself to save Draco.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Brightwater - Dec 21, 2005 4:25 pm (#158 of 236)

I agree, Maddest Dragon, that hearing the story from Snape himself is the only possible way Harry could have come to terms with it. I can't imagine that he would hate Snape any more than he did after finding out from Professor Trelawney.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Saracene - Dec 21, 2005 5:20 pm (#159 of 236)

I tried to imagine Snape himself telling Harry the whole story about the prophecy and I just can't do it. It just seems... I don't know, totally against nature. Snape is so not, not, NOT a confessional type who bares his soul and apologises to people. Which is why I'm dying to see his conversation with Dumbledore when Snape returned to the good side; Snape in remorseful state is surely a sight rarer than the Loch Ness monster, Smile

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

TomProffitt - Dec 22, 2005 4:36 pm (#160 of 236)

I don't see how they could have been talking about or planning having Snape hit Dumbledore with the AK.

There are just so many ways for someone who can do magic to kill someone that you can't just plan against all eventualities. I don't think DD would have been able to foresee (even knowing Draco's task, which we don't) circumstances where Snape offing DD would be a realistic plan.

Even assuming DD is dying from a curse on the ring Horcrux & that Draco's task is to kill DD, there just aren't enough reasons to plan for Snape to do the deed in a show down. It may have been Snape doing the AK on orders from DD, but I don't think it was a plan. They had to have been arguing something else.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Brightwater - Dec 29, 2005 8:53 am (#161 of 236)

Exactly, Saracene; Snape would find it almost impossible to tell Harry about his role in the Potters' deaths - and Dumbledore would realize that it was absolutely necessary that Harry find out from Snape and no one else. That would explain the heat on both sides of the Forest conversation.

If Harry had heard the story from Snape, there's a small possibility that he would believe that Snape's repentance was genuine; if he heard it from anyone else, even Dumbledore, he would never believe it. DD knew that, and perhaps that's why he turned white when Harry told him that he'd found out from Trelawney.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jan 2, 2006 7:32 am (#162 of 236)

Somehow I don't see DD asking Snape to tell Harry when he got around to it and trusting it was done. If this confession were to happen, I see it more like the revelation of Sirius to Snape at the end of GoF, in DD's presence, as was the coerced handshake. If DD truly wanted Harry to know, and Snape to tell him, I see a similar scene. After the terribly failed occlumency lessons, DD must have realized letting Snape and Harry work out their demons alone, together would have been a big mistake. DD would need to referee this encounter to get them both past their hate, and in Snape's case, guilt.

I think DD went white because he didn't want Harry to know yet, and not the way he found out. DD doesn't want Harry derailed by hate for Snape, LV is the target, and hate for Snape won't help Harry.

Just my opinion, of course...

Happy New Year!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

haymoni - Jan 3, 2006 11:50 am (#163 of 236)

I still think the reason Dumbledore doesn't give Harry all the details is because it is about Snape's love for Lily.

Snape hears the prophesy, blabs it to Voldy, goes with him to Godric's Hollow - "Here, my lord??? We're looking for the boy here?" He realizes what a terrible mistake he's made - he doesn't give a hoot about James - it's all about Lily.

That's why Dumbledore won't tell Harry - what boy wants to find out that his mother was loved by (forgive me, Gina!) a greasy-haired git like Snape.

Perhaps he thinks that Harry can't handle something like that.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madame Pomfrey - Jan 4, 2006 11:44 am (#164 of 236)

I agree Haymoni .I think Lily has everything to do with Snape's "greatest regret of his life." As much as Harry despises Snape, if Harry knew that Snape truly loved his mother, maybe he would believe this regret. As for the forfest conversation, I think it has to do with Dumbledore's plan for Snape to go to go to Voldemorts camp full time. If Snape really loved Lily, as some of us speculate, his hatred for Voldemort must be great.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

haymoni - Jan 4, 2006 12:12 pm (#165 of 236)

But his guilt would be greater.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Strider - Jan 4, 2006 4:39 pm (#166 of 236)

Hello, I've been reading this thread there is a question that I've posted in the Severus Snape thread that I think goes here.

I find it very weird that a conversation about Dumbledore's plans regarding Snape and the Unbreakable Vow, or something important happened in the forest where they could be overhear, like they obviously were. Did this mean that they were discussing a plan that was being rehearsed or explained? or the urgency for Dumbledore to speak to Snape was so great that he did it as soon as he found him or the other way around?

We always see the important conversations happen in Dumbledore's office not in an open place.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

hawick girl - Jan 4, 2006 4:54 pm (#167 of 236)

I think that the forest has been used for several important discussions. In GoF, Harry and Krum have a discussion that Krum doesn't want to be heard also in the Forest. In PS/SS Harry and Hagrid have a discussion about why someone would want to drink unicorn blood, which also happens in the Forest. There are probably more examples of important discussions that take place (and may be overheard) in the Forest.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madame Pomfrey - Jan 5, 2006 3:45 am (#168 of 236)

Didn't the conversation between Quirrell and Snape also take place in the forest? That conversation was also puzzling.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

TomProffitt - Jan 5, 2006 4:35 am (#169 of 236)

Jo's big on symbolism. Perhaps there is some symbolism in the location of a conversation.

I haven't tried to decipher these symbols she uses, but it's obvious that she does so. For example, she definitely uses socks as a symbol, and right now I suspect the type of sock and their use is indicative of the quality of a relationship.

So, there is probably a symbolic reason for the conversations taking place in the forest. She may place other important conversations in key places, like classrooms, common rooms, and the great hall, but I don't know for certain. Someone with more time than me might want to investigate it.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

haymoni - Jan 5, 2006 9:51 am (#170 of 236)

I'm guessing most folks stay away from the forest, so it is a very logical place to have a conversation.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Jan 5, 2006 10:37 am (#171 of 236)

Since students are not allowed (supposedly) to go into the forest, Dumbledore thought it a secure place for a private conversation. Hagrid is the only teacher/person likely to be in the forest and since Dumbledore trusts Hagrid with his life, then I think he would trust him to know what the conversation was about should he accidentally overhear it.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Jan 5, 2006 12:16 pm (#172 of 236)

I think the primary reason for the forest conversation is a device so that JKR can have Hagrid over hearing it. But within the plot, I suppose it could also be so that the portraits don't hear the conversation either. Perhaps DD had a secret that he didn't want portraits (obligated to serve whoever the headmaster/mistress is), to tell McGonagall later.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 6, 2006 1:40 pm (#173 of 236)

It's also possible that DD and Snape were in the forest for something else (like to speak with the centaurs) and on their way out were "arguing" based on that prior meeting. Perhaps the centaurs brought something to light for them which involves yet another task for Snape...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Midori - Jan 11, 2006 8:57 pm (#174 of 236)

Folks, can you explain me a detail. Here is quote:
...Dumbledore told him flat out he'd agreed ter do it an' that was all there was to it...
Could this be interpreted as
Dumbledore told him (Snape) flat out he'd (Snape) agreed ter do it...
or this can mean also
Dumbledore told him (Snape) flat out he'd (Dumbledore) agreed ter do it... ?
Thanks for help)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Jan 12, 2006 11:58 am (#175 of 236)

As it so often is with JKR, I think it could be interpreted either way. We are getting it second hand through Hagrid and don't know how the line was originally spoken.

Lady Arabella Thu May 26, 2011 8:26 pm

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Soul Search - Jan 14, 2006 8:19 am (#176 of 236)

Dumbledore and Snape being in the forest is a bit curious. If all they wanted was a private conversation, there has to be a more convenient room in the castle; there has to be a room without portraits.

I can't quite buy that they were conferring with Centaurs, or any other forest creatures. Centaurs don't get involved.

We know that wizards can't apparate on the Hogwarts grounds. Most seem to go out of the gates to Hogsmeade to apparate, and Dumbledore and Harry did on their way to the cave. But, how far do the "grounds" extend; how much of the the forest is included in the ban?

My thought is that going a ways into the forest is closer than going out of the gates. Also, there is no one to see them apparate or disapparate (return) in the forest, whereas any spy could be in Hogsmeade watching the gates. It might be suspicious for Snape to be seen apparating or disapparating with Dumbledore.

Where would Dumbledore and Snape disapparate from? Order headquarters, #12 Grimmauld Place. Dumbledore and Snape were returning from a meeting at #12 Grimmauld Place.

Now, does this put a different interpretation on what Hagrid overheard?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

TomProffitt - Jan 14, 2006 10:07 am (#177 of 236)

The forest is also a convenient place for Hagrid to be doing the overhearing. I suppose that it is not above Albus & Severus to "stage" an argument for Hagrid's benefit either.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 14, 2006 2:29 pm (#178 of 236)

They may have been disapparating, DD could have easily lifted the ban for them temporarily I suppose. But 12GP is no longer order headquarters so it must have been somewhere else. Or did Harry tell them to use it again? I can't remember... I thought there was a temporary headquarters that was not identified...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Mrs Brisbee - Jan 15, 2006 6:49 am (#179 of 236)

My thought is that going a ways into the forest is closer than going out of the gates. Also, there is no one to see them apparate or disapparate (return) in the forest, whereas any spy could be in Hogsmeade watching the gates. It might be suspicious for Snape to be seen apparating or disapparating with Dumbledore. --Soul Search

That's a clever explanation, Soul Search. I've no idea where they might be going, though.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madame Pomfrey - Jan 15, 2006 7:12 am (#180 of 236)

Soul Search, I like the idea that the argument might be staged. Knowing that Hagrid is bad with keeping silent about anything, the conversation could now be used in a way that suggests Snape and Dumbledore had a falling out of sorts which would make everyone believe even more that Snape is a traitor and killed Dumbledore purposely as a DE. This I think was part of Dumbledore's plan-to make sure Severus is condemned as a DE in the eyes of the wizarding world.In other words, they are fooling Voldemort. Dumbledore must have really needed Snape in the DE camp to help Harry in his destruction of Voldemort somehow.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Soul Search - Jan 15, 2006 9:22 am (#181 of 236)

Madame Pomfrey, wynnleaf and TomProffitt have been exploring that angle. But, I do have some thoughts.

The forest would be the place to stage a conversation so Hagrid would overhear it.

But, it seem a stretch to expect Hagrid to mention it to just the right people.

Back to the Order connection:

Given that Dumbledore and Snape were returning from an Order meeting, was their overheard conversation an continuation of a discussion with some, or one, member of the Order?

We didn't hear much from Moody in HBP. He would be a logical candidate to take over from Dumbledore.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Jan 15, 2006 9:30 am (#182 of 236)

These are talented and powerful wizards for goodness sakes - I hardly think they would have to stoop to staging pretend arguments in the forest when they could simply implant a false memory in whomever they wanted. Tom Riddle did it when he was 15/16 years old, so surely Dumbledore or Snape could easily do it.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 15, 2006 3:17 pm (#183 of 236)

I think it may be worth considering -again- that DD saying "in his own house" was in fact Spinner's End and not Slytherin. But I don't know why...

What could be in Snape's house? Wormtail's there, we know. I know this is a wild guess but what about a horcrux? What if Snape's mother was one of Riddle's posse? What if she was a Ravenclaw, Vold visited her at the house years ago and used an item of hers -a family heirloom- as a horcrux without her knowing, then tucked it away somewhere safe?

I remember reading the beginning of chapter two it described the chimney *like an admonitory finger* (paraphrasing). A warning finger pointing or hovering over Snape's house. Maybe it has more meaning than just Snape and the Vow...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Vulture - Jan 28, 2006 2:45 pm (#184 of 236)

Snape in remorseful state is surely a sight rarer than the Loch Ness monster (Saracene - Dec 21, 2005 5:20 pm (#159)

And the resemblance doesn't end there !!

=======================================================================

Didn't the conversation between Quirrell and Snape also take place in the forest? (Madame Pomfrey - Jan 5, 2006 3:45 am (#168)

I'm afraid that there are a lot of re-hashes in Book 6, and this is one of them (in my opinion).

===========================================================================

I think the primary reason for the forest conversation is a device so that JKR can have Hagrid over hearing it. (wynnleaf - Jan 5, 2006 12:16 pm (#172)

Now that I think _ were they actually that near the Forest ? Isn't it rather that Hagrid heard their voices as he was coming out of the Forest, and that he heard them because their voices were raised ? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

========================================================================

These are talented and powerful wizards for goodness sakes - I hardly think they would have to stoop to staging pretend arguments in the forest when they could simply implant a false memory in whomever they wanted. (Choices - Jan 15, 2006 9:30 am (#182)

But aren't false memory implants Dark magic ? But I agree with your basic point _ I'm sure they could find better ways.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Jan 28, 2006 5:41 pm (#185 of 236)

Vulture - "But aren't false memory implants Dark magic?"

Well, it's magic and I think the "darkness" of it depends on the purpose for which it is done. If it was done for evil, then it would be dark, otherwise, not.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Steve Newton - Jan 28, 2006 7:23 pm (#186 of 236)

It seems that memory 'implants' are fairly routine by the MOM. Arthur is said to have done some on the night of the disturbance at Moody's. I can't see any way that they could be considered dark magic.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Honour - Jan 28, 2006 10:46 pm (#187 of 236)

Harking back to your post #183 Shadow, I agree with you. When I read that passage I immediately thought of Spinners End as well! It didn't dawn on me until I read it in the threads that others thought it was referring to Slytherin House.

Tell you something else that skipped through my mind as I read chapter 2 of HPB, if Peter is in Severus' house, is Voldermort there too? Just because Severus explained Peter's presence with some line or other to Bella and Narcissa doesn't mean it was so, after all, Severus was feeding these ladies a whole lot of .... er lines and false inferences ... Any who, thought I'd just throw that into the mix as well ... Smile

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Vulture - Feb 14, 2006 12:03 pm (#188 of 236)

May I mention a theory recently put to me by my brother (and first posted on the Severus Snape thread): I personally don't buy it, and it may have been covered before, but anyway:

He argues that the cave Horcrux was not, after all, in the locket, but in the basin of water _ and Dumbledore, literally, drank the Horcrux. That's why Snape (who, by this theory, is still on the good side, folks !!) had to kill him _ and it was the Horcrux , not Dumbledore, who was pleading for mercy.

Fairly way out as a theory, I know. But it does cover most angles _ except for the Avra Kedavra problem, that (as Bellatrix told us in Book 5) "you have to mean them" (Unforgiveables, that is).

This theory has an interesting angle on Dumbledore's anguished words when he's drinking the basin's water. According to the theory (there's no proof of this in the canon), the soul-part sliced away when the Horcrux is created is the part opposed to the evil act which allowed the slicing. Thus we have Dumbledore saying "Please don't hurt them" _ i.e. the Horcrux is speaking through him.

The theory is also, of course, intended to explain what Hagrid overheard near the Forest. According to this, Dumbledore has realised that he will have to submit to possession by the Horcrux and be killed. Snape, for all sorts of reasons, is sceptical that Dumbledore is right in his analysis.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Caius Iulius - Feb 14, 2006 12:27 pm (#189 of 236)

Shadow, Honour, I have read HBP in a different language also and I looked up that sentence about Snape's House. It was translated as "department", so that is why I think that "House" in this case does mean Slytherin and not Spinners End. Of course, the translator could be wrong. Nevertheless, I wanted to pass you this information.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Feb 15, 2006 2:57 pm (#190 of 236)

Caius, thanks for the added facet... I wonder if it is strictly accurate in that way. I was thinking, if DD has indeed told Snape about the horcruxes, which we might assume he has, than perhaps DD was telling him he has reason to believe a relic/horcrux lies within a hidden corner of Spinner's End. It's possible that Snape's mother was a Ravenclaw and/or descended from them...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Caius Iulius - Feb 16, 2006 10:18 am (#191 of 236)

That is possible, but in that case the hiding place would be important because of a relation with Ravenclaw, and not because it was related to Voldemort himself. For all we know, previous "hiding horcrux places" were all of importance to Voldemort (Hogwarts, his mother’s house and the cave which he visited in his youth).

Personally, I think the conversation has to do with going on being a double spy.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Feb 16, 2006 3:18 pm (#192 of 236)

I agree, Caius. The locations all seem to be significant to Vold. I had a thought that, given mama Prince possibly attended Hogwarts with Vold, if the two of them had a connection in some way. Hermione stated at the end of HBP that she'd be doing more research into Eileen Prince, so perhaps something will be revealed to us in book 7.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Caius Iulius - Feb 17, 2006 3:13 pm (#193 of 236)

True, Hermione's investigations usually lead us somewhere important. But what is bothering me is that we haven't got, as far as I can see, any clues whatsoever about Eileen Prince and a possible link to Voldemort.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

virginiaelizabeth - Feb 22, 2006 2:38 pm (#194 of 236)

I definitely think that Eileen Prince will play a big role in book 7. I also agree that Hermione's research will lead to something important. As for the clues linking Eileen Prince and LV, I feel sure that there are lots and lots of them in all six books, we just have to find them! After all, JKR wants us to try and figure it out, but she also wants to make it really hard to do. I'm confident that when we read book 7, there will be several times where we will be shocked at the outcome of something that has been there since the beginning of the series ,but we never realized it was important. Now its time for me to go and start looking for some of these clues!!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Night Owl - Jun 17, 2006 9:04 am (#195 of 236)

Something that struck me as very strange while rereading HBP. Why did Snape and Dumbledore have that conversation in the Forbidden Forest? Why not in Dumbledores office. What had they been doing there? It just seems strange that in the middle of the night they would meet there. Were they coming back from someplace, tho that would seem strange to be there and not on the road back to the school. I wonder if they were not practicing something that may take place on the tower. There had to be a reason to be in that spot. Just a thought.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Jun 17, 2006 9:16 am (#196 of 236)

I think it was just a place where they could have privacy and not be overheard. After all, the portraits in Dumbledore's office listen in on every conversation. The forest was also the place where Snape confronted Quirrell in book one and the edge of the forest was where Viktor Krum talked with Harry about his feelings for Hermione in book 4.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Night Owl - Jun 17, 2006 1:52 pm (#197 of 236)

A lot of sensitive things have been said in Dumbledore’s office. Tom Riddles Horcruxes. The prophecy,
Trewlany’s involvement. And a lot more that I cannot think of right at the minute. I still think there was a reason why they were in that spot. If that was the exact place of the other meetings you describe I don't know. It still bugs me. Smile

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Hollywand - Jun 17, 2006 3:24 pm (#198 of 236)

How about if they wanted Hagrid to overhear the conversation since they both knew they were not going to be at Hogwarts much longer?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madame Pomfrey - Jun 17, 2006 4:56 pm (#199 of 236)
Edited Jun 17, 2006 5:57 pm

I like that Hollywand.I have often thought that Hagrid lets things slip on purpose per Dumbledore’s orders. Perhaps Harry will question Hagrid again and learn more. Something has to change Harry's mind about Snape-if Snape is for the good, that is.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Soul Search - Jun 18, 2006 7:03 am (#200 of 236)

My guess is Dumbledore and Snape were returning from #12 Grimmauld Place.

We know one can't apparate within the Hogwart's grounds. Many go to Hogsmeade to apparate, but that could mean being seen. Why not a space in the forest, outside the apparation restriction. Clandestine comings and goings could be more easily accomplished.

Lady Arabella Thu May 26, 2011 8:29 pm

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Magic Words - Jun 18, 2006 8:01 pm (#201 of 236)

If we're looking for slightly more complicated possibilities (since those are so much more fun) what about Snape and Dumbledore visiting someone in the forest? Centaurs? I doubt it would be Grawp... what else is out there?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Jun 30, 2006 5:20 pm (#202 of 236)

Perhaps they were seeking a joy ride in a Ford Anglia? Or wanted to question a gigantic fifty-year-old spider as to whether his family had noticed anything strange in the forest? Or, the one that always seemed the most absolutely, positively glaring to me, perhaps Lupin? We're told that Lupin is off with the werewolves doing underground work, and I'm not sure if it's for certain, but I'd always thought that werewolves lived in the Forbidden Forest. (I hope that's not movie contamination.) I think it would make a good spot for Lupin, he would be close to the school in case he was needed (like on the night he and other Order members were asked to patrol the corridors) and it might provide another reason as to why Tonks was stationed in Hogsmeade; perhaps she volunteered for the position as it put her close to the one she so desperately longed for. I'm sure somebody has come up with this before me, but I thought I'd bring it up. Hey, maybe in the end the two will get married and move into the Shrieking Shack and have little wolf babies who can just change their appearance at the full moon to look like regular people and drink Wolfsbane to calm themselves.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Honour - Jul 12, 2006 4:04 pm (#203 of 236)

Your Lupin theory makes absolute sense to me Tom! Good One!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 13, 2006 8:22 pm (#204 of 236)
Edited Jul 13, 2006 9:37 pm

but I'd always thought that werewolves lived in the Forbidden Forest . . .

And your canon or evidence for? My thoughts are that werewolves live in many locations and many cultures?

My take on what Dumbledore asked Snape to do was to spread doubt and discord to try and turn them (the DE) to the good side, just as Lupin did among the werewolves and Hagrid among the Giants.

...toddles off thinking my 2 knuts worthless against the price of oil today...

Edited: For clarity, sort of...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Mediwitch - Jul 13, 2006 8:24 pm (#205 of 236)

Both Draco (SS/PS) and Ron (CoS) say they've heard werewolves live in the Forbidden Forest, but I don't recall any conclusive canon evidence.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

nthdavid - Jul 13, 2006 8:29 pm (#206 of 236)

In CoS (in The Heir of Slytherin) Riddle says that Hagrid had been raising werewolf cubs under his bed. Where did he get them and where did they go after they were discovered?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Jul 13, 2006 10:29 pm (#207 of 236)

I know that there is no real solid evidence of werewolves living in the forest, and that Malfoy and Ron are possibly spreading an idea that came about in the days of Lupin's own attending Hogwarts as a student. And as for Riddle reporting that Hagrid had been raising werewolf cubs under his bed, this is, according to JKR, simply a slanderous lie on the part of Riddle, as werewolves don't have "cubs."

Now we enter the realm of speculation and guess work, but as I am not DD, I am most certainly going to be much less accurate in my hypothesizing.

Okay, so we know that Hogwarts houses some creatures that "should be treated with great respect." (FB) These are the centaurs, merpeople, and unicorns. Now, the reason I bring this up is that the centaurs and the merpeople choose to separate themselves from Wizards, and they find Hogwarts a suitable habitat. According to Lupin, Fenrir Greyback marshals the werewolves, and Greyback likes to bite children so he can raise them to hate normal wizards. This follows along the line of separation idea, and thus, perhaps werewolves also find Hogwarts a suitable habitat, and hence they may perhaps be found in the Forbidden Forest.

As for there never having been solid confirmation of the werewolves presence, perhaps the moment you get close enough to them you become one yourself; you get bit and then are forced to live with them in hiding. And, with a werewolf like Greyback around to marshal the werewolves, it might be possible that the idea of biting humans even when they are not yet transformed might not be such a bad idea. Yes, perhaps Lupin was the cause for the werewolf rumor, but perhaps also at some point some of the students noticed howling in the Forest and associated that with werewolves, but as they only heard and had not come close enough to have seen them there was still no solid evidence of the werewolves' presence in the Forbidden Forest.

Except by Hagrid, the Forbidden Forest seems to be extremely uncharted. Newt Scamander speaks of rumors of a colony of Acromantula having been established in Scotland are unconfirmed, and supposedly he had traveled for many years; surely the Forbidden Forest would seem to be a little goldmine to one who is interested in researching fantastic beasts? Perhaps DD keeps the Forbidden Forest Forbidden to all, not just to Hogwarts students; maybe he likes to give the werewolves a hiding spot so that he might have an opportunity to keep them in check while they wait for Voldemort to come back to power. Perhaps Hagrid could be used by DD to keep him filled in on all the goings-on in the Forest; I doubt DD would have any fear that Hagrid would not love such a position of importance to DD, let alone it provides him an opportunity to pursue his dream; perhaps this is was a factor in DD's decision to allow Hagrid to stay at Hogwarts as the Gamekeeper?

If Lupin were in them Forbidden Forest, he would be close to Snape, who could continue to make him Wolfsbane Potion under DD's orders. Now, to do the important thing and tie this into the thread, perhaps Snape was on a regular visit to Lupin to a meeting place in the Forest in which he was going to give Lupin his potion. DD may have decided to tag along; it would make sense for him to have a way to communicate with Lupin other than by owl or Patronus, as I've no doubt that the other werewolves would find this suspicious behavior. On the way back, Snape brings up the fact that maybe he doesn't want to have to make Potion for Lupin any more. (We are now entering the part that Hagrid overheard.) DD's taking it for granted, according to Snape, that he has a brilliant potion-maker who would work hard to perfect the Wolfsbane Potion for Lupin. As for Snape making investigations in his own house, perhaps Lupin was able to figure something out about Greyback and had just told DD and Snape about it. Maybe Malfoy was entirely honest in Borgin and Burkes when he said that he knew Greyback; Greyback says something about having a connection in the school, DD suspects Malfoy already of trying to kill him, so he's reaffirming that Snape should be investigating the goings-on in his own house, A.K.A. talk to Malfoy, about whatever it is that Greyback said about his Hogwarts connection, perhaps even a plan to kill DD that Greyback was in on because Malfoy chose to trust him a bit more than he did Snape.

Purely speculation, all of it, but it's fun. Lupin says something out in the Forest about Snape not having much information on Snape, it aggravates him and he takes it out on DD, but perhaps his double-agent role was all Snape was referring to when sounded like he felt over worked.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Soul Search - Jul 14, 2006 9:09 am (#208 of 236)
Edited Jul 14, 2006 10:13 am

Werewolves are only in wolf form for something like three days out of twenty-eight. I doubt many would want to live in the forest in human form. A few might journey to Hogsmeade so they can roam the forest in wolf form and not encounter humans, but even these might be few.

Rumors of werewolves in the forest around Hogwarts must be mostly that, rumor. All part of that "forbidden" mystique.

I think it more likely Dumbledore and Snape had just apparated from somewhere, perhaps #12 Grimmauld Place. Coming back to the edge of the forest, rather than Hogsmeade, might be a way to travel to and from the castle without letting any Hogsmeade observers know.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Jul 14, 2006 10:22 am (#209 of 236)
Edited Jul 14, 2006 11:31 am

I think the Forbidden Forest is considered part of Hogwarts, so apparition would not be possible. If it were, then why did Dumbledore go into Hogsmeade to apparate instead of just popping into the Forbidden Forest?

I believe Snape and Dumbledore specifically went into the forest for privacy to discuss something very volatile - something that caused Snape to get angry and caused Dumbledore to have to remind him of their goal and also, who was running the show.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madame Pomfrey - Jul 14, 2006 5:10 pm (#210 of 236)

I agree, Choices. I think that conversation had something to do with what happened on the tower.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

TheSaint - Jul 14, 2006 7:00 pm (#211 of 236)

Was a little reminiscent of a previous discussion we saw in the woods...Snape and Quirrell.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

cindysuewho45 - Jul 28, 2006 11:25 pm (#212 of 236)

Hi all, I have enjoyed reading all your post! I agree that they were talking out there so that they could have some privacy. However reading in book 6, page 405. I feel that when Hagrid said that they were having a "Well, a heated discussion an' it wasn' easy ter block it out," that both men were angry or very upset, and loud.

And when Hagrid says "Well- I jus' heard Snape sayin' DD took too much fer granted an' maybe he - Snape - didn' wan' ter do it anymore-" I feel that if I was telling someone that they took to much for granted and I did not want to do it anymore, it would be something that I was already doing and wanted to stop doing. Not something that had not even happened yet. "didn' wan' ter do it any more". If it was something that I had never done, it would be worded differently. Like, NO, I will not do that. The "fer granted" part is what can be read more than one way. But it still says "any more" so it is something old not new.

Now on page 406, DD says that Snape had "agreed to do it an' that was all there was to it." Now we know that Snape had agreed to spy, be a double agent. I'm sure that there could have been something else that he was doing also. But then DD went on and said "An' then he said summat abou' Snape makin' investigations in his House, in Slytherin." Now if DD already knew about Snape's UV and that Draco was trying to kill him, why would he need Snape to look into or investigate the Slytherin House at all? If Snape had told DD about everything and DD and Snape had made a plan to kill DD. Then DD would not need Snape to look into anything at all, because DD would have already known about it. So the (DD wants Snape to kill him thing) just does not work for me, at this point.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Magic Words - Jul 29, 2006 6:12 am (#213 of 236)

I don't know. I feel sure the conversation has to be a clue. Snape not wanting to be a double agent anymore--well, it could be a motive for him to kill Dumbledore, but with the Unbreakable Vow it's superfluous. Not a very useful clue. And it has to be more than Snape feeling overworked, because that's what Hagrid assumes (I'm not saying Hagrid is always wrong, just that JKR wouldn't give us the answer that easily). To me, it has to refer to some kind of plan between Dumbledore and Snape, and what possible plans do we know about? Snape spying, Snape fulfilling the Vow, Snape protecting Harry?

Maybe it is nothing but me thinking of the Quirrell/Snape forest conversation, but in that case Snape's and Quirrell's roles turned out to be the reverse of what we thought they were. IF there's a parallel, that would mean Snape doesn't want to do something you'd think he would want to do (save his own life). I guess it's also possible that this is a clue to something we haven't even suspected yet, but which will appear in book 7, like Snape hunting Horcruxes.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

cindysuewho45 - Jul 30, 2006 9:45 am (#214 of 236)

Hi all, The conversation could very well be a clue, just not a clue about Snape killing DD, something else. If Snape would have told DD about the unbreakable vow, and what Draco was up to. DD would of had no reason to ask Snape to look into his own House, he would have already known. I agree that it is more than Snape feeling over worked. I feel that there is something more there, but I also feel that jumping just to the (Snape killed DD at his asking) plan, we are overlooking something else that it may be about. I do not know. OK, I like your thought about Snape and Horcruxes. Maybe DD wanted Snape to bring him LV's snake, or to kill it for him?????I could see where Snape would say no to that. I think we should look at different things that it could be.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Deb Zawacki - Jul 31, 2006 7:15 pm (#215 of 236)

I wonder if one unbreakable vow can trump another? For example--what if Snape--as penance for his part in the Potters-go-boom fiasco promised to protect Harry from really serious danger--recall his counter-jinxing Harry's broom, blocking him from the werewolf--agreeing to teach him occlumency--he didn't like helping Harry and it probably raised his BP----but he had promised....

And when Harry got into trouble with Draco or when Snape could have been fair he wasn't that doesn't mean he wasn't keeping his promise--

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Jul 31, 2006 7:53 pm (#216 of 236)

I just don't believe that when DD uses the word "trust" so many times in regards to Snape, that he means that Snape is being bound by a life-or-death commitment to a device like an unbreakable vow. That's just not what "trust" means to me. If DD used the words, "I'm convinced that Snape...." or "I have confidence that Snape...." then perhaps he'd be referring to a Vow. But I don't believe "I trust Severus Snape," refers to an Unbreakable Vow.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

haymoni - Aug 1, 2006 4:21 am (#217 of 236)

“Potters-go-boom” - I know I shouldn't laugh, but I certainly giggled.

I just don't see Dumbledore asking someone to take an Unbreakable Vow. He sees beyond the moment and would understand that there may be a more important reason why someone would have to break their word.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Aug 1, 2006 9:08 am (#218 of 236)

“....blocking him from the werewolf”

Movie contamination - he doesn't do that in the book.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Deb Zawacki - Aug 1, 2006 7:15 pm (#219 of 236)
Edited Aug 1, 2006 8:16 pm

Number 1: Snape’s a Slytherin, so IN THEORY he will do what he has to do to save his skin--make promises, take vows etc.

I don't care HOW apologetic Snape might have been--if he said he would protect Harry after causing his parents to be nuked--I would want it in blood, as tight a vow as I could make it--and I would keep him in my employ, living in my castle and on a short leash.

Trust is a word--and Dumbledore has misplaced his often. Either Snape OWES Dumbledore for something--a life-debt, or he took a vow.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Aug 1, 2006 9:37 pm (#220 of 236)
Edited Aug 1, 2006 10:38 pm

Trust is a word--and Dumbledore has misplaced his often. Either Snape OWES Dumbledore for something--a life-debt, or he took a vow.

Nevertheless, it is the word DD uses consistently. If his trust is real, but misplaced, then he doesn't know it was misplaced and had therefore no motive for demanding a vow or depending on a life-debt. If he didn't trust, but instead placed his confidence in a vow or life debt, then he wouldn't use the word trust. Besides, remember that we're not just talking about DD. DD is not a real person who may perhaps use words without taking their true meaning into account. This is the word JKR had DD use consistently. She picked that word for a reason. I tend to assume since she used the word so often, she meant "trust" and not something else.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

journeymom - Aug 2, 2006 7:43 am (#221 of 236)
Edited Aug 2, 2006 8:44 am

It can't always come down to House sorting, either. Yes, Severus Snape is a Slytherin, and Slytherins look out for themselves. And school unity has been emphasized as well and everybody has a little of each House in their personality.

I also wonder what it takes to become headmaster. Perhaps headmasters have a greater mix of each House in their personalities, or are at least able to put aside house loyalties in order to "rule" fairly. I'd hope so. Dumbledore would (hopefully) be able to see past Snape's slytherin affiliation in order to see what else he is capable of, like Hufflepuff loyalty. Maybe. Sorry, I'm not making my point really well.

Regardless, I cannot imagine Dumbledore requiring an Unbreakable Vow of Snape. This says more about Dumbledore than about Snape, and I would be a little disappointed to find in Book 7 that DD had garnered a UV from Snape, and that that's what he meant by he trusts Snape.

Two scenarios that sit better with me: DD was aware that Snape made another UV, prior to Narcissa's, an UV to some as yet unknown person. Or, DD trusted Snape because Snape in the past 16 years has proven his reliability and shown his sincere regret in ways we haven't seen yet.

A Snape/DD unbreakable vow just doesn't sit well with me. It's too coercive on Dd's part.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Magic Words - Aug 2, 2006 8:10 am (#222 of 236)

It sounds like we all agree that there's more to Dumbledore's trust than what he told Harry, i.e. Snape regretting the Potters' deaths. Either there was an Unbreakable Vow, or there was something else we haven't figured out yet. I agree with Wynnleaf and Journeymom that an Unbreakable Vow just doesn't seem to fit with Dumbledore and his use of the word "trust," so I'm putting my money on "something else." Maybe Dumbledore knows something about Snape that he learned without Snape telling him (and therefore Snape couldn't have lied about it.)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

journeymom - Aug 2, 2006 10:24 am (#223 of 236)

Maybe Dumbledore knows something about Snape that he learned without Snape telling him (and therefore Snape couldn't have lied about it.)

Magic Words, I like that.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Aug 2, 2006 2:17 pm (#224 of 236)
Edited Aug 2, 2006 3:17 pm

“World Book Day Chat, March 2004

Ali: Why specifically does Dumbledore trust Snape? JK Rowling replies -> Another excellent and non-answerable question. I shall merely say that Snape has given Dumbledore his story and Dumbledore believes it.”

While this doesn't tell us anything about what it is that caused DD to initially trust Snape, I think it does show that it's something that DD knows about Snape, not a Vow that he's extracted from him.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

timrew - Aug 2, 2006 2:23 pm (#225 of 236)

Voldemort:- "Kiss me..........my missing cousins.........."

No answer to that..........

Lady Arabella Thu May 26, 2011 8:31 pm

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

cindysuewho45 - Aug 3, 2006 12:28 am (#226 of 236)

Hi all, Well as for why DD trusted Snape, I feel that Snape lied to him back when he was sent to get the job at Hogwarts by LV. Snape has been able to lie to LV or DD all this time. And each of them are great wizards, so just how good or great is Snape at what he is doing.

I cannot remember where I read this, but somewhere JKR says that DD makes mistakes, big ones, when it comes to trusting. And DD said in the books that, the greater the wizard the greater the mistakes they sometime make, something like that. Trusting Snape could be DD's greatest mistake. I do not feel that Lily ever loved Snape, or that Snape ever loved Lily.

However knowing how DD feels about love, this could indeed be the lie Snape told DD to make him trust him. That he Snape, loved Lily back in the school days and could never have her, but he hates himself for what has happened to her. And wants to make up for what happened somehow etc. etc.. But as for the conversation by the forest, I feel that DD wanted Snape to do something like take LV's snake and bring it to him. So that DD could kill off one more Horcruxe. Or he wanted Snape to tell Harry something that Snape did not want to tell him. Or, or, or!!!!!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

haymoni - Aug 3, 2006 5:02 am (#227 of 236)

That quote means something different to me now than it did when I first read it.

My first take on it was Harry doesn't need to know the reason - it is between Dumbledore & Snape. Snape has told Dumbledore his story and Dumbledore believes it. That should be enough for Harry & for us - end of story.

But 2 years later after HBP, it takes on a bit more. She says "Snape has given Dumbledore his story..."

STORY - not "Snape has told Dumbledore the truth" or "Snape had a very good reason."

He gave Dumbledore his story - his version of events (my interpretation) - and Dumbledore believes it.

She says, "...and Dumbledore believes it."

it being the story - not necessarily Snape himself.

Amazing what 2 years and a couple of books will do!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Deb Zawacki - Aug 3, 2006 1:25 pm (#228 of 236)
Edited Aug 3, 2006 2:26 pm

Perhaps DD is ONLY a fictional character in a fictional book, and what makes logical sense to we "mere muggles" is moot. However, I tend to believe that DD’s greatness as a wizard is a balance between his humanity--[i.e. his trust, belief in the power of goodness and love, and a sincere belief in the salvation and or redemption of most (but not all) human beings.]

I also believe that DD ALSO possesses knowledge and competence in both white and dark magic--he knows how to use both and when, if ever, to use darker arts. You can't always win just by wearing the white cowboy hat and being the hero--you have to understand how dark souls think, feel and operate. Like the way they train special forces to endure pain and other survival skills.

I think that even if he believed Snape's "story" or whatever--the old adage about keeping friends close but enemies closer is appropriate with Snape. I am sure DD is both Occlumens and Legilimens. But he has a poker-players demeanor--what HE may really be feeling at any given time is not always clear. In fact we don't often REALLY know what he has been thinking until the end of each book--or even several books later!

Again, DD stresses CHOICES and he makes them all the time!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

cindysuewho45 - Aug 5, 2006 12:04 am (#229 of 236)

Hi all, I like the way you put that Deb Zawacki, the part about DD, and his greatness.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Feb 20, 2007 4:36 pm (#230 of 236)

I probably could post this elsewhere, but it might be nice to revive this wonderful thread.

There were many theories on what was meant by "An' then he said summat abou' Snape making investigations in his house, in Slytherin. Well, there's nothin' strange abou' that!"

With the idea in mind that DD could have been referring to Severus's actual house, I found this quote from Severus about Peter interesting: "He has taken to listening at doors, I don't know what he means by it..."

Will Peter be the real problem in DH? He might be the one to expose proof to Vold that Severus is loyal to DD. What if Peter has a pensieve memory that shows Severus speaking to one of the Order?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[MickeyCee3948]MickeyCee3948 - Feb 20, 2007 6:12 pm (#231 of 236)

I doubt if Severus is dumb enough to entertain members of the Order within his house. Even if it happen due to an emergency, I am sure he could lay it off to still collecting info for his master.

Mickey

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Feb 21, 2007 12:30 pm (#232 of 236)

MickeyCee, it's true Severus is supremely clever. However, it struck me as an assumption by Hagrid - "in Slytherin" because DD said "his house" and Hagrid then interpreted it, with another assumption "there's nothin' strange abou' that!". Seems odd to me since DD and Severus should have known about Draco since beginning of term so why discuss "investigating" it then?. Combined with Severus's comment about Peter's eavesdropping... Perhaps Peter is attempting to enter DD's Wizarding Protection Program by staying with Severus, but DD doesn't trust him yet.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

journeymom - Feb 21, 2007 3:12 pm (#233 of 236)

Hm! That's really interesting, Me and My!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Feb 21, 2007 5:13 pm (#234 of 236)

me and my,

I have wondered this too. For instance, JKR could have had DD word it "investigations in Slytherin," rather than "your house." It is possible -- not necessarily probable, but possible, -- that she used this as a little misdirection of her own. She has Hagrid assume that DD is telling Snape to investigate within Slytherin, making Harry and us assume later that it has to do with Draco. But using "your house," JKR could come back later and explain to us that DD was really concerned about Snape investigating something going on at Spinner End. For instance, Snape is at Hogwarts during the school year, but where's Peter? Still at Spinners End perhaps making mischief? Who knows.

If we always keep in mind that HBP is like the first half of a book, with a lot of mystery and who-dunnit, then I think we've got to assume that there's a bunch of authorial misdirection going on -- of the type used in GOF for instance. This might not be an example of it, but it could be.

And yes, JKR loves to trick her readers -- in the tried and true methods of a good mystery writer, or some well-used unreliable narrator, and other methods.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Thom Matheson - Feb 21, 2007 5:58 pm (#235 of 236)

Wynnleaf, thanks for reminding me about the fact that book 6 is supposed to be just 1/2 of the final book. I had forgotten that. It certainly helps to remember that this is just the front half. Of course we are left hanging on a lot of things.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Feb 24, 2007 11:20 am (#236 of 236)

She has Hagrid assume that DD is telling Snape to investigate within Slytherin, making Harry and us assume later that it has to do with Draco. But using "your house," JKR could come back later and explain to us that DD was really concerned about Snape investigating something going on at Spinner End. For instance, Snape is at Hogwarts during the school year, but where's Peter? Still at Spinners End perhaps making mischief? Who knows. – wynnleaf

I know what you mean, wynnleaf. I think Hagrid has made assumptions in the past as well, so she might use him for this purpose in this case. For instance, right before he explained the Forest Conversation to the trio, Hagrid said "But he doesn't know who sent that necklace nor who put poison in that wine, or they'd've bin caught, wouldn' they?" We know now that DD knew the entire time, so it seems Hagrid is out of the loop, as they say.

So, yes, what's Peter been doing at Spinner's End or elsewhere during book 6? I guess that's for the Peter thread...

Sponsored content

The Forest Conversation: What Did Dumbledore Ask Snape To Do?

The Forest Conversation: What Did Dumbledore Ask Snape To Do?

Posts 1 to 25

Posts 26 to 50

Posts 51 to 75

Posts 76 to 100

Posts 101 to 125

Posts 126 to 150

Posts 151 to 175

Posts 176 to 200

Posts 201 to 225

Posts 226 to 236

Re: The Forest Conversation: What Did Dumbledore Ask Snape To Do?