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Harry's Blood and Harmony
Lady Arabella Mon May 30, 2011 12:13 am
The following is an archive of material originally posted on the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum, hosted by World Crossing, which ceased operations on April 15, 2011
Last edited by Lady Arabella on Mon May 30, 2011 12:16 am; edited 1 time in total
Lady Arabella- Prefect
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Lady Arabella Mon May 30, 2011 12:16 am
Harry's Blood and Harmony
Round Pink Spider - Sep 20, 2005 4:36 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Aug 4, 2007 6:26 am
(This theory has its roots in alchemy, but it goes beyond alchemy as a topic, and I think it’s significant enough that it deserves its own thread.)
It is the tradition to have four houses, but in this case, I wanted them to correspond roughly to the four elements. So Gryffindor is fire, Ravenclaw is air, Hufflepuff is earth, and Slytherin is water, hence the fact that their common room is under the lake. So again, it was this idea of harmony and balance, that you had four necessary components and by integrating them you would make a very strong place. But they remain fragmented, as we know.
If only they could achieve perfect unity, you would have an absolute unstoppable force, and I suppose it's that craving for unity and wholeness that means that they keep that quarter of the school that maybe does not encapsulate the most generous and noble qualities, in the hope, in the very Dumbledore-esque hope, that they will achieve union, and they will achieve harmony. Harmony is the word. (emphasis added)
In her July 16th interview with Emerson Spartz of Mugglenet, and Melissa Anelli of the Leaky Cauldron, J. K. Rowling made these comments about the connection between HP and alchemy. I think that the word “harmony” deserves considerable attention.
According to the theory of the four Elements JKR mentions, opposing Elements couldn’t unite directly, because they would tend to cancel each other out. So, for example, Fire and Water in equal amounts would eliminate each other. The ancient Greeks came to the conclusion that they needed an intervening Element, a harmonia, that would help the two opposing elements work together.
The concept of harmonia was actually much more important in ancient philosophy than it appears. It was actually fundamental to the whole cosmology of the cultures from which the Greeks and Egyptians, among others, were descended. All the Elements needed to work together, to balance, for the universe to function. And harmonia was the concept that expressed this interplay between the Elements.
The concept of harmonia appears in many places all over the books, camouflaged in one form or another. One of the simplest is in the word “harmony.” There are a number of references to harmony that indicate its importance. This comes from Prof. Binns’ speech about the Chamber of Secrets:
“For a few years, the founders worked in harmony together, seeking out youngsters who showed signs of magic and bringing them to the castle to be educated.” (CoS, p. 150)
The Sorting Hat also mentioned harmony:
So Hogwarts worked in harmony/For several happy years,/But then discord crept among us/Feeding on our faults and fears. (OotP, p. 206)
The Sorting Hat went a little further: while the Founders were balanced, there was “harmony”; when problems began, there was “discord” or lack of harmony. Dumbledore presents the threat of Voldemort in similar terms:
“Lord Voldemort’s gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open.” (GoF, p. 723)
Although the Greeks didn’t use the word harmonia to refer to music, it looks like JKR has connected her concept of harmony to music, too. She had Dumbledore insist on singing the school song the year that Harry arrived safely at Hogwarts, and he said at the time that music was “a magic beyond all we do here”. (SS/PS, p. 128) Dumbledore’s pet is a phoenix, whom Tom Riddle deprecatingly called a “songbird” (CoS, p. 316). And the magical thread that connected Harry’s and Voldemort’s wands emitted a sound that Harry identified as phoenix song (GoF, p. 664).
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 20, 2005 4:38 pm (#1 of 208)
Edited Sep 20, 2005 5:40 pm
(continued)
The Greeks believed that the most important harmonia between Fire and Water was the Element Air. We can see this in the scene when Harry’s and Voldemort’s wands connected, too: Harry and Voldemort were suddenly levitated into the air to the “un-earth-ly” sound of phoenix song (Earth is Air’s opposite among the Elements, just as Fire is Water’s opposite). So the connection between Harry, as a “true Gryffindor” (representing Fire), and Voldemort, as a descendent of Slytherin (representing Water) was depicted with music and air, symbols of harmonia.
Now, where is all this going?
Back to the Elements and alchemy, people used to believe that there were four Humours in the body that corresponded with these Elements and that, just as the Elements had to be in balance for the universe to function, the Humours had to be in balance for the body to stay healthy. When Melissa Anelli asked JKR about the “gleam of triumph” in Dumbledore’s eyes when he heard that Voldemort had used Harry’s blood to recreate his body, she said, “That's still enormously significant. And let's face it, I haven’t told you that much is enormously significant, so you can let your imaginations run free there.”
A few weeks ago, I suddenly realize that blood is the Humour of the body that is supposedly connected to Air! Harry’s blood represents a harmonia, a connection, between Harry’s body and Voldemort’s, just as their wands connected them together, and even as the scar connects their minds together. (Remember that Harry said he felt as if his scar was turning him into an “aerial [Air-ial] that was tuned in to tiny fluctuations in Voldemort’s mood…” OotP, p. 554)
Where is she going with this? I don’t know. But I think this belongs on the open Forum for discussion, because (in JKR’s own words) Harry’s blood connecting him with Voldemort is “enormously significant.” So I guess it’s time for our imaginations to run free…
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Elanor - Sep 21, 2005 10:57 am (#2 of 208)
Edited Sep 21, 2005 11:59 am
Great posts RPS!
It is one of my pet theories that, since Slytherin left Hogwarts, the balance of the Wizarding World is broken. Alchemists associated the 4 elements/4 humours theory to the one about the macrocosm and the microcosm: the universe was organised in concentric spheres: from planets to men, from men to minerals, hence the connections between metals, planets, organs, etc...
So, if the houses, and thus their founders, are bound to the elements, which lived at the beginning in harmony (as you said), then when Slytherin left Hogwarts he broke not only the balance of the school but also the one of the whole wizarding world, as what happens to the microcosm also happens to the macrocosm. Slytherin's heir, Voldemort's actions and ideas can still be seen as the consequences of that severing. Thus, Harry's true aim will be to restore the balance of the wizarding world by defeating Voldemort since, here again, what happens to the microcosm (Harry) also happens to the macrocosm (the Wizarding World), whose fates are closely bound.
To those 4 elements, alchemists believed that a fifth should be added, which was the spiritual nature of the essence of the universe: quintessence, that was at the same time in each of the elements and above them. And what is Harry reading in the HBP? "Quintessence: a quest"! I think that quintessence can thus be applied to 2 persons: Dumbledore (the headmaster is above the houses, plus there is the white smoke shaped like a phoenix after his death: he becomes the spirit above all of them) and of course Harry. Quintessence, that is to say the ability to unite everyone at Hogwarts so to be the one above the houses distinctions, must be his quest in the future.
What you said about Harry's blood is very interesting. I'll have to think more about it!
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LooneyLuna - Sep 22, 2005 5:32 am (#3 of 208)
Edited Sep 22, 2005 6:32 am
RPS, brilliant, as usual!
The only thing I can add is that Snape, as head of Slytherin house has caused more discord within Hogwarts and the Wizarding World by killing Dumbledore. Here we have another Slytherin that has left the school in disarray.
Maybe Slughorn can help Harry with appreciating people for who they are, instead of which house they belong. Something that Slughorn does with ease. I can see Slughorn helping Harry bring harmony to Hogwarts.
I have nothing to add about Harry's blood, it's, er, over my head.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 22, 2005 8:11 am (#4 of 208)
Edited Sep 22, 2005 9:12 am
I agree, Luna. I've also suspect that part of Slughorn's purpose in the books may be to help Harry connect with the Slytherins in the school. (It's a good thing Slughorn wasn't teaching DADA...) And Harry having at least a touch of sympathy for Draco now can't hurt either!
I agree that Snape has caused disarray. But that isn't really the same thing as discord. Discord (as JKR is using it) means division between groups that need to work together. Actually, I would say that the houses within Hogwarts are in a better position to work together now than they ever have been before. Having Draco out of Slytherin can't hurt -- he would really have stood in the way of any unity.
Also, I would guess that, with Dumbledore gone, many people in the Wizarding World are going to be looking to Harry as a "savior". But the division between him and the Ministry ought to create an interesting conflict...
So all in all, I would guess that, in many ways, what happened at the end of HBP may actually be the first step in uniting many groups. (Did you notice the merfolk and the centaurs coming out to honor DD? Sometimes deaths can bring people together...)
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LooneyLuna - Sep 22, 2005 8:25 am (#5 of 208)
I see what you're saying, RPS. Snape killing Dumbledore and leaving Hogwarts is more of a catalyst bringing people together as opposed to separating them. Initially, there will be panic and discord, but eventually, they will unite, not necessarily under Harry, though he will lead the way. They have to unite if they want to survive and defeat Voldemort. I think if Harry knows that the Hogwart's Houses/Wizarding World are working together, that will put Harry in a better position to defeat Voldemort. If that makes any sense.
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T Vrana - Sep 22, 2005 8:38 am (#6 of 208)
Edited Sep 22, 2005 9:41 am
RPS- If Slughorn stays (and I think he will), I have to believe he knows DD is not dead, and that the DEs were expected. Slughorn only came to Hogwarts after Harry convinced him he was safer at Hogwarts with DD.
If the evening of DD's "death" wasn't somewhat planned, I don't think Slughorn would still feel safe staying at Hogwarts.
I thought DD and Slughorn standing back to back cleaning up Sluggy's house was symbolic of the coming cleaning up of the WW. They weren't standing side by side, because they are conflicting powers, Gryffindor vs Slytherin, fire vs water, but they did work together.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 22, 2005 12:05 pm (#7 of 208)
T Vrana, I also think that Slughorn will stay (I think he's vital to the story), but I think that it'll be because he realizes that, if they don't hang together, they're all going to hang separately. I really think I detected a slight change of heart on his part near the end of the last book. Did you notice that, in the scene in Dumbledore's/McGonagall's office at the end, when discussing whether the school should reopen, he seemed to be intending to stay?
I am sure Dumbledore would have wanted the school to remain open, said Professor Sprout. "I feel that if a single pupil wants to come, then the school ought to remain open for that pupil."
But will we have a single pupil after this? said Slughorn, now dabbing his sweating brow with a silken handkerchief. "Parents will want to keep their children at home and I can't say I blame them. Personally, I don't think we're in more danger at Hogwarts than we are anywhere else, but you can't expect mothers to think like that. They'll want to keep their families together, it's only natural."
Notice Slughorn saying "we", and also admitting that "we're" in no more danger at Hogwarts than anywhere else. To me, that implies that he's already cast in his lot with the other teachers.
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T Vrana - Sep 22, 2005 2:09 pm (#8 of 208)
Yes. But the very fact he's willing to stay tells me he knows he's still safer at Hogwarts. He was on the run for a year, suddenly he's going to do the team thing? He's a Slytherin, they tend to be into self-preservation.
Could be wrong...
Unless he was on the run from DD...How long had DD been looking for that memory?
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valuereflection - Sep 22, 2005 6:54 pm (#9 of 208)
As Dumbledore said, Horace likes his comfort. Slughorn has grown quite comfortable at Hogwarts. Not only because of the Slug Club and the supplement to his teacher's salary from Hagrid's magical creatures. He has now made Hogwarts his home. He has resumed his treasured old connections with his former students. Why should he want to exert himself to overcome his inertia (leave)? Life on the run would be less langorous than his comfortable job.
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T Vrana - Sep 22, 2005 7:29 pm (#10 of 208)
Edited Sep 22, 2005 9:05 pm
Life on the run would be less langorous than his comfortable job . . .
Very true. I don't mean to belabor the point, but Slughorn felt the need to be on the run, despite all his love of "trophy" friends and comforts. For him to uproot himself every week for a year, he had to be really desperate. I had the impression he was running from DEs. Are you suggesting he needed money, so he was moving from house to house for financial reasons?
If he was afraid of the DEs, with DEs breaking into DD's castle, and killing DD, I would think he would be back on the run.
That is what leads me to believe he knows more than he's letting on.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 23, 2005 6:16 am (#11 of 208)
Edited Sep 23, 2005 7:18 am
Slughorn had cut himself off from the protection that Hogwarts presented years ago. Harry had to convince him that teaching at Hogwarts wasn't the same as being in the Order of the Phoenix before he would go back. Now that he's back, I think perhaps the part of him that enjoyed being a teacher has been resuscitated, and he's starting to feel at least a slight sense of loyalty to his students again.
I wanted to mention some other stuff that I found out while I was writing my newsletter. First, I had always thought that mythology was just a bunch of stories that some shepherds with too much time on their hands made up , but actually, I discovered in my investigations that a lot of the Greek myths are tied to philosophical beliefs. The ones that are most pertinent to this discussion are the Fire-Water myths.
Fire was the destructive Element -- not necessarily bad, in the sense that it can get rid of useless things that need getting rid of -- so it was tied to Aries, or Mars if you're talking Latin. It was also associated with creativity, like the fire of a forge, so it was associated with Haephestus (Vulcan in Rome).
Water was the Element that brought things together. So it was associated with love, and with Aphrodite/Venus (which is probably why she was pictured as being born from the ocean).
As an image of the Elements working together, the Greeks and others showed Fire and Water being married to each other. So Haephestus and Aphrodite were married, and Aphrodite had several flings with Aries, which produced several children, the most important (for our purposes) being named Harmonia.
Why is this important? It explains what's going on with Slytherin house. The purpose of Slytherin house was to unite, because that's what Water is supposed to do, unite unlike things. Instead, Salazar Slytherin became a divider, and Wizarding Society has been divided ever since. Even more interestingly, Water is associated with LOVE! You can even see this in a pun from the Sorting Hat: when Slytherin went away, he left the school "quite downhearted."
So now I think this shows where Harry comes in. He's part like his father, a real Gryffindor, a divider, but he's also part like his mother. Did you notice that Lily was good at Potions, which are the Water magic in the book? And she was obviously pretty tender-hearted. Now Harry's heart, his ability to love, is his most important characteristic. He has become a unifier -- which is the role Water is supposed to play.
So, in a sense, Harry is stepping into the role vacated by Salazar Slytherin -- he's uniting the Wizarding World by bringing unlike people together.
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septentrion - Sep 23, 2005 11:33 am (#12 of 208)
Edited Sep 23, 2005 12:42 pm
And don't forget Harry was nearly sorted in Slytherin.
LooneyLuna : Snape killing Dumbledore and leaving Hogwarts is more of a catalyst bringing people together as opposed to separating them. Initially, there will be panic and discord, but eventually, they will unite
Your comments have made me see Snape's flight like an ourobouros figure. Slytherin left and created discord. Snape left and provoked unity.
Just for the record : in French, we use the word "harmonie" (harmony) to design some musical bands. Didn't you say DD gave importance to music as something which is harmony ?
edit : Snape is a Slytherin and unexpectedly created unity with his actions. He also knew (or created ?) a singing counter-curse to the sectumsempra. Still music as something which reunites what had been seperated, what had been cut, and it comes from Snape.
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Choices - Sep 23, 2005 12:09 pm (#13 of 208)
Dumbledore said, "Music is a magic beyond all we do here".... or something to that effect.
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HungarianHorntail11 - Sep 23, 2005 1:25 pm (#14 of 208)
Great thread, RPS! And I love these posts.
I am wondering if reflection (mirrors) can also relate to water. I know this is stretching it, but JKR refused to discuss the mirror and when I think of reflections, I think of water. How can the mirrors in this series help unity or harmony?
Regarding Slughorn, I stated the following on the Slughorn thread: I kind of thought of Slughorn as a not-so-valiant King Arthur type. Rounding up the best of the best not quite understanding the magnitude of his actions, but ending up with a coming together that will help keep Hogwarts intact.
And this on the White Tomb thread:
“All of those who came to show their respects, even nasty ol' Umbridge, came. I think that in itself shows a sense of unity. It seems as though DD's death shows that all of these people/creatures are capable of working together when push comes to shove. I also think that tragedy brings out the best in people and they work together in ways most never expect. Look at how Harry was able to lift himself above his grief to appreciate Ron and Hermoine's allegiance to him.”
The reason I point this out is because, if two or more people have come up with the same idea separately, then there must be something to it.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 23, 2005 1:34 pm (#15 of 208)
Edited Sep 23, 2005 2:40 pm
Dumbledore said, "Music is a magic beyond all we do here".... or something to that effect. – Choices
That's on SS/PS, p. 128.
Your comments have made me see Snape's flight like an ourobouros figure. Slytherin left and created discord. Snape left and provoked unity.
So many ouroboroses, so little time...
For those of you who haven't dug much into alchemy yet, here's a quickie on the ouroboros...
The Serpent biting its own tail is first seen as early as 1600 years BC in Egypt. From there it moved to the Phonecians and then to the Greeks, who called it the Ouroboros, which means devouring its tail.
The serpent biting its tail is found in other mythoi as well, including Norse myth, where the serpent's name is Jörmungandr, and in Hindu, where the dragon circles the tortoise which supports the four elephants that carry the world.
The ouroboros has several meanings interwoven into it. Foremost is the symbolism of the serpent biting, devouring, eating its own tail. This symbolises the cyclic Nature of the Universe: creation out of destruction, Life out of Death. The ouroboros eats its own tail to sustain its life, in an eternal cycle of renewal. -- From [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
So Sepentrion's description of Snape's flight as an ouroboros is quite apt.
EDIT: Sorry, HH11, you posted while I was ironing my daughter's pants...
Your comments about DD's funeral and Slughorn do reinforce the point pretty well. I think we're pretty much all seeing things coming together. On the "reflection" thing... um, can you explain where you're coming from? I don't see the connection...
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DM Havox - Sep 23, 2005 3:47 pm (#16 of 208)
First and foremost, what and great thread! RPS, my hat's off to you!
One thing the Merpeople and the Centaurs at DD funeral reminded me of was the Fountain of Magical Bretherin at the MoM. DD's "death" is uniting the WW? IMHO, he is the catylist.
Also I remember the centaurs always repeating "Mars is bright tonight" and "Mars being the bringer of battle." I would hope this war, represented by Mars, is the cleansing type of fire. Along the same lines of destruction and renewal, forest fires actually cleanse the environment, and some trees actually need the heat of fire to help reproduce, like the sand pine (not to sound all Discovery Channel or anything). Sort of the phoenix rising from the ashes thing...
I can also see that Malfoy was sort of the leader of the Slytherins, or his group of them anyway, and I could see them being willing to cooperate more easily now he is gone. Slughorn seems more willing to help unite the houses than Snape would have. Maybe we will see the rebirth of the DA since it was a small uniting of 3 of the houses, and maybe some of the Slytherins might join up? Harry is definitely the key to unification.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 23, 2005 5:06 pm (#17 of 208)
Edited Sep 23, 2005 6:07 pm
One of things that is interesting to me is that the Harmony that Dumbledore and Harry create a true harmony. As Leaned Hand once said Right knows no boundaries, and justice no frontiers; the brotherhood of man is not a domestic institution. On the other hand the MoM up to this point has represented a pseudo-harmony that is best represented by the Fountain of Magical Brethren.
Harry's blood is I believe an indivisible unbreakable metaphor for the true harmony that Dumbledore sought to create and Harry as his successor in the quest to defeat Voldemort will complete its creation and preserve it.
RPS, I wonder if it would be possible for me to receive copies of your newsletters. I find your theories fascinating to read.
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wynnleaf - Sep 23, 2005 5:55 pm (#18 of 208)
RPS, I wonder if it would be possible for me to receive copies of your newsletters. I find your theories fascinating to read.
Ditto, RPS
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 23, 2005 6:22 pm (#19 of 208)
Edited Sep 23, 2005 7:34 pm
Uhhh... gee, thanks! But I'm not writing it anymore...
I can send you the good stuff from the past issues. Also, I am still producing occasional, half-size letters with the same sort of information in them.
I had to give up the newsletters because I was under a certain amount of pressure at home to return to my own writing. So Phoenix Song and I are now working toward writing our own work and hopefully getting it published.
Anyway, I'll start sending you the good stuff from the old issues, Nathan and Wynnleaf.
DM Havox, yes, actually there are many references to Mars, and to Venus too. As I recall, on his Astronomy OWL (?) he was mistaking Mars for Venus, or something of that sort (don't have the books right now). Very symbolic. It would have to be symbolic, because if you've ever done any star-gazing, you know that mistaking Mars for Venus is kind of ridiculous. Venus is bright and white; Mars is dim and red.
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Ana Cis - Sep 25, 2005 4:48 pm (#20 of 208)
Edited by Sep 25, 2005 5:49 pm
First, thank you, RSP, for establishing such an interesting thread.
The following idea may sound wacky, but here it goes. When Voldemort used Harry's blood to form his body, doesn't it seem descriptive of a type of ouroboros? LV, totally, evil and lacking of love, incorporates the blood that's filled with magic of a love sacrifice—-a mother sacrificing her life for her child that has a great capacity to love. I'm not very good at logically point it out, but I sense a connection with whole idea of creation out destruction. It seems that both fundamental natures ride within Voldemort.
On a different tangent, in the various stories within each of the books, they consistently show Harry's ability to transcend the prejudices before him. For example:
Except for his intense hate for Snape, Harry shows all the characteristics of becoming a great unifier—-maybe that's that reason there such a close connection between Fawkes and him. However, the biggest personal obstacle towards reaching this goal is his personal enmity against Snape...and maybe even Voldemort. We'll see how he resolves this internal struggle in Book 7.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 25, 2005 6:17 pm (#21 of 208)
First, thank you, Ana Cis, for the compliment!
I see what you mean, about Voldemort's blood being like an ouroboros. You're right. And I expect it'll bite him in the end...
I agree with you that (Harry’s) hatred for Snape is a real obstacle that he has to overcome. That's really quite serious; since love is Harry's most important characteristic, hate of any kind in Harry is a bad thing. Actually, I think he showed just a touch of compassion for Tom Riddle -- remember that Dumbledore asked if he was feeling sorry for Voldemort? He knows that Voldemort has to go, that he is destroying lives and has to be stopped, but I don't think he hates Voldemort as much as he hates what he's doing. But with Snape... yeah, that's real hate, and I think it's got to go.
On the subject of the connection through Harry's blood, I've been thinking that, in the end, we're probably going to see some spectacular magic as a result. The connection with the wands led to some amazing stuff in GoF. The connection through Harry's scar led to some real drama at the end of OotP. So I would expect some fireworks.
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valuereflection - Sep 25, 2005 6:57 pm (#22 of 208)
Round Pink Spider,
I also would like copies of your past newsletters. Thank you.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 27, 2005 9:50 am (#23 of 208)
Edited Sep 27, 2005 10:51 am
This morning, over the phone, Barb made a brilliant observation on this topic that she said I could share with you all. It concerns the spell "Sectumsempra," and it really illustrates the theme of harmony and how important it is.
The Latin word "seco", from which "sectum" comes, does in fact mean wound or cut, BUT (!!!) it also means DIVIDE. And many of you may recognize the word "sempra" from the Marine Corps motto, "Semper Fidelis", as meaning "always". So that means that "sectumsempa" means (approximately) "divide[d] always."
As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, the Element Water is supposed to join unlike things. But Slytherin house has lost this fundamental purpose. Instead of joining others together, they create division and discord. If you look at the scene, you'll notice (as Barb pointed out this morning) that, right before Harry uses Sectumsempra, he hits the cistern right behind Myrtle, so there's water all over the place.
Now all that symbolism is pretty neat all by itself, but this is where it becomes truly amazing. When Snape is healing Malfoy, he's using "an incantation that sounded almost like a song."
He's using music -- harmony, as it were -- to heal the "division."
I just have to sit back and soak in that amazing detail for a moment...
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Phoenix song - Sep 27, 2005 1:25 pm (#24 of 208)
I just have to sit back and soak in that amazing detail for a moment... – RPS
Gee, thanks!
Coming from you that's an enormous compliment!
Talk to you soon!
Barb
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 30, 2005 4:18 am (#25 of 208)
I remembered a while ago another instance of Voldemort taking away harmony was when he was a boy. One of the things he took away from one of the other children was a mouth organ, which in the USA we would call a harmonica.
Notice that Harry (for some strange reason) thought that Dumbledore might have it in his office. (That would have been an appropriate place to find harmony...) But Voldemort would never have used a harmonica for a Horcrux!
Round Pink Spider - Sep 20, 2005 4:36 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Aug 4, 2007 6:26 am
(This theory has its roots in alchemy, but it goes beyond alchemy as a topic, and I think it’s significant enough that it deserves its own thread.)
It is the tradition to have four houses, but in this case, I wanted them to correspond roughly to the four elements. So Gryffindor is fire, Ravenclaw is air, Hufflepuff is earth, and Slytherin is water, hence the fact that their common room is under the lake. So again, it was this idea of harmony and balance, that you had four necessary components and by integrating them you would make a very strong place. But they remain fragmented, as we know.
If only they could achieve perfect unity, you would have an absolute unstoppable force, and I suppose it's that craving for unity and wholeness that means that they keep that quarter of the school that maybe does not encapsulate the most generous and noble qualities, in the hope, in the very Dumbledore-esque hope, that they will achieve union, and they will achieve harmony. Harmony is the word. (emphasis added)
In her July 16th interview with Emerson Spartz of Mugglenet, and Melissa Anelli of the Leaky Cauldron, J. K. Rowling made these comments about the connection between HP and alchemy. I think that the word “harmony” deserves considerable attention.
According to the theory of the four Elements JKR mentions, opposing Elements couldn’t unite directly, because they would tend to cancel each other out. So, for example, Fire and Water in equal amounts would eliminate each other. The ancient Greeks came to the conclusion that they needed an intervening Element, a harmonia, that would help the two opposing elements work together.
The concept of harmonia was actually much more important in ancient philosophy than it appears. It was actually fundamental to the whole cosmology of the cultures from which the Greeks and Egyptians, among others, were descended. All the Elements needed to work together, to balance, for the universe to function. And harmonia was the concept that expressed this interplay between the Elements.
The concept of harmonia appears in many places all over the books, camouflaged in one form or another. One of the simplest is in the word “harmony.” There are a number of references to harmony that indicate its importance. This comes from Prof. Binns’ speech about the Chamber of Secrets:
“For a few years, the founders worked in harmony together, seeking out youngsters who showed signs of magic and bringing them to the castle to be educated.” (CoS, p. 150)
The Sorting Hat also mentioned harmony:
So Hogwarts worked in harmony/For several happy years,/But then discord crept among us/Feeding on our faults and fears. (OotP, p. 206)
The Sorting Hat went a little further: while the Founders were balanced, there was “harmony”; when problems began, there was “discord” or lack of harmony. Dumbledore presents the threat of Voldemort in similar terms:
“Lord Voldemort’s gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open.” (GoF, p. 723)
Although the Greeks didn’t use the word harmonia to refer to music, it looks like JKR has connected her concept of harmony to music, too. She had Dumbledore insist on singing the school song the year that Harry arrived safely at Hogwarts, and he said at the time that music was “a magic beyond all we do here”. (SS/PS, p. 128) Dumbledore’s pet is a phoenix, whom Tom Riddle deprecatingly called a “songbird” (CoS, p. 316). And the magical thread that connected Harry’s and Voldemort’s wands emitted a sound that Harry identified as phoenix song (GoF, p. 664).
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 20, 2005 4:38 pm (#1 of 208)
Edited Sep 20, 2005 5:40 pm
(continued)
The Greeks believed that the most important harmonia between Fire and Water was the Element Air. We can see this in the scene when Harry’s and Voldemort’s wands connected, too: Harry and Voldemort were suddenly levitated into the air to the “un-earth-ly” sound of phoenix song (Earth is Air’s opposite among the Elements, just as Fire is Water’s opposite). So the connection between Harry, as a “true Gryffindor” (representing Fire), and Voldemort, as a descendent of Slytherin (representing Water) was depicted with music and air, symbols of harmonia.
Now, where is all this going?
Back to the Elements and alchemy, people used to believe that there were four Humours in the body that corresponded with these Elements and that, just as the Elements had to be in balance for the universe to function, the Humours had to be in balance for the body to stay healthy. When Melissa Anelli asked JKR about the “gleam of triumph” in Dumbledore’s eyes when he heard that Voldemort had used Harry’s blood to recreate his body, she said, “That's still enormously significant. And let's face it, I haven’t told you that much is enormously significant, so you can let your imaginations run free there.”
A few weeks ago, I suddenly realize that blood is the Humour of the body that is supposedly connected to Air! Harry’s blood represents a harmonia, a connection, between Harry’s body and Voldemort’s, just as their wands connected them together, and even as the scar connects their minds together. (Remember that Harry said he felt as if his scar was turning him into an “aerial [Air-ial] that was tuned in to tiny fluctuations in Voldemort’s mood…” OotP, p. 554)
Where is she going with this? I don’t know. But I think this belongs on the open Forum for discussion, because (in JKR’s own words) Harry’s blood connecting him with Voldemort is “enormously significant.” So I guess it’s time for our imaginations to run free…
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Elanor - Sep 21, 2005 10:57 am (#2 of 208)
Edited Sep 21, 2005 11:59 am
Great posts RPS!
It is one of my pet theories that, since Slytherin left Hogwarts, the balance of the Wizarding World is broken. Alchemists associated the 4 elements/4 humours theory to the one about the macrocosm and the microcosm: the universe was organised in concentric spheres: from planets to men, from men to minerals, hence the connections between metals, planets, organs, etc...
So, if the houses, and thus their founders, are bound to the elements, which lived at the beginning in harmony (as you said), then when Slytherin left Hogwarts he broke not only the balance of the school but also the one of the whole wizarding world, as what happens to the microcosm also happens to the macrocosm. Slytherin's heir, Voldemort's actions and ideas can still be seen as the consequences of that severing. Thus, Harry's true aim will be to restore the balance of the wizarding world by defeating Voldemort since, here again, what happens to the microcosm (Harry) also happens to the macrocosm (the Wizarding World), whose fates are closely bound.
To those 4 elements, alchemists believed that a fifth should be added, which was the spiritual nature of the essence of the universe: quintessence, that was at the same time in each of the elements and above them. And what is Harry reading in the HBP? "Quintessence: a quest"! I think that quintessence can thus be applied to 2 persons: Dumbledore (the headmaster is above the houses, plus there is the white smoke shaped like a phoenix after his death: he becomes the spirit above all of them) and of course Harry. Quintessence, that is to say the ability to unite everyone at Hogwarts so to be the one above the houses distinctions, must be his quest in the future.
What you said about Harry's blood is very interesting. I'll have to think more about it!
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LooneyLuna - Sep 22, 2005 5:32 am (#3 of 208)
Edited Sep 22, 2005 6:32 am
RPS, brilliant, as usual!
The only thing I can add is that Snape, as head of Slytherin house has caused more discord within Hogwarts and the Wizarding World by killing Dumbledore. Here we have another Slytherin that has left the school in disarray.
Maybe Slughorn can help Harry with appreciating people for who they are, instead of which house they belong. Something that Slughorn does with ease. I can see Slughorn helping Harry bring harmony to Hogwarts.
I have nothing to add about Harry's blood, it's, er, over my head.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 22, 2005 8:11 am (#4 of 208)
Edited Sep 22, 2005 9:12 am
I agree, Luna. I've also suspect that part of Slughorn's purpose in the books may be to help Harry connect with the Slytherins in the school. (It's a good thing Slughorn wasn't teaching DADA...) And Harry having at least a touch of sympathy for Draco now can't hurt either!
I agree that Snape has caused disarray. But that isn't really the same thing as discord. Discord (as JKR is using it) means division between groups that need to work together. Actually, I would say that the houses within Hogwarts are in a better position to work together now than they ever have been before. Having Draco out of Slytherin can't hurt -- he would really have stood in the way of any unity.
Also, I would guess that, with Dumbledore gone, many people in the Wizarding World are going to be looking to Harry as a "savior". But the division between him and the Ministry ought to create an interesting conflict...
So all in all, I would guess that, in many ways, what happened at the end of HBP may actually be the first step in uniting many groups. (Did you notice the merfolk and the centaurs coming out to honor DD? Sometimes deaths can bring people together...)
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LooneyLuna - Sep 22, 2005 8:25 am (#5 of 208)
I see what you're saying, RPS. Snape killing Dumbledore and leaving Hogwarts is more of a catalyst bringing people together as opposed to separating them. Initially, there will be panic and discord, but eventually, they will unite, not necessarily under Harry, though he will lead the way. They have to unite if they want to survive and defeat Voldemort. I think if Harry knows that the Hogwart's Houses/Wizarding World are working together, that will put Harry in a better position to defeat Voldemort. If that makes any sense.
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T Vrana - Sep 22, 2005 8:38 am (#6 of 208)
Edited Sep 22, 2005 9:41 am
RPS- If Slughorn stays (and I think he will), I have to believe he knows DD is not dead, and that the DEs were expected. Slughorn only came to Hogwarts after Harry convinced him he was safer at Hogwarts with DD.
If the evening of DD's "death" wasn't somewhat planned, I don't think Slughorn would still feel safe staying at Hogwarts.
I thought DD and Slughorn standing back to back cleaning up Sluggy's house was symbolic of the coming cleaning up of the WW. They weren't standing side by side, because they are conflicting powers, Gryffindor vs Slytherin, fire vs water, but they did work together.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 22, 2005 12:05 pm (#7 of 208)
T Vrana, I also think that Slughorn will stay (I think he's vital to the story), but I think that it'll be because he realizes that, if they don't hang together, they're all going to hang separately. I really think I detected a slight change of heart on his part near the end of the last book. Did you notice that, in the scene in Dumbledore's/McGonagall's office at the end, when discussing whether the school should reopen, he seemed to be intending to stay?
I am sure Dumbledore would have wanted the school to remain open, said Professor Sprout. "I feel that if a single pupil wants to come, then the school ought to remain open for that pupil."
But will we have a single pupil after this? said Slughorn, now dabbing his sweating brow with a silken handkerchief. "Parents will want to keep their children at home and I can't say I blame them. Personally, I don't think we're in more danger at Hogwarts than we are anywhere else, but you can't expect mothers to think like that. They'll want to keep their families together, it's only natural."
Notice Slughorn saying "we", and also admitting that "we're" in no more danger at Hogwarts than anywhere else. To me, that implies that he's already cast in his lot with the other teachers.
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T Vrana - Sep 22, 2005 2:09 pm (#8 of 208)
Yes. But the very fact he's willing to stay tells me he knows he's still safer at Hogwarts. He was on the run for a year, suddenly he's going to do the team thing? He's a Slytherin, they tend to be into self-preservation.
Could be wrong...
Unless he was on the run from DD...How long had DD been looking for that memory?
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valuereflection - Sep 22, 2005 6:54 pm (#9 of 208)
As Dumbledore said, Horace likes his comfort. Slughorn has grown quite comfortable at Hogwarts. Not only because of the Slug Club and the supplement to his teacher's salary from Hagrid's magical creatures. He has now made Hogwarts his home. He has resumed his treasured old connections with his former students. Why should he want to exert himself to overcome his inertia (leave)? Life on the run would be less langorous than his comfortable job.
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T Vrana - Sep 22, 2005 7:29 pm (#10 of 208)
Edited Sep 22, 2005 9:05 pm
Life on the run would be less langorous than his comfortable job . . .
Very true. I don't mean to belabor the point, but Slughorn felt the need to be on the run, despite all his love of "trophy" friends and comforts. For him to uproot himself every week for a year, he had to be really desperate. I had the impression he was running from DEs. Are you suggesting he needed money, so he was moving from house to house for financial reasons?
If he was afraid of the DEs, with DEs breaking into DD's castle, and killing DD, I would think he would be back on the run.
That is what leads me to believe he knows more than he's letting on.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 23, 2005 6:16 am (#11 of 208)
Edited Sep 23, 2005 7:18 am
Slughorn had cut himself off from the protection that Hogwarts presented years ago. Harry had to convince him that teaching at Hogwarts wasn't the same as being in the Order of the Phoenix before he would go back. Now that he's back, I think perhaps the part of him that enjoyed being a teacher has been resuscitated, and he's starting to feel at least a slight sense of loyalty to his students again.
I wanted to mention some other stuff that I found out while I was writing my newsletter. First, I had always thought that mythology was just a bunch of stories that some shepherds with too much time on their hands made up , but actually, I discovered in my investigations that a lot of the Greek myths are tied to philosophical beliefs. The ones that are most pertinent to this discussion are the Fire-Water myths.
Fire was the destructive Element -- not necessarily bad, in the sense that it can get rid of useless things that need getting rid of -- so it was tied to Aries, or Mars if you're talking Latin. It was also associated with creativity, like the fire of a forge, so it was associated with Haephestus (Vulcan in Rome).
Water was the Element that brought things together. So it was associated with love, and with Aphrodite/Venus (which is probably why she was pictured as being born from the ocean).
As an image of the Elements working together, the Greeks and others showed Fire and Water being married to each other. So Haephestus and Aphrodite were married, and Aphrodite had several flings with Aries, which produced several children, the most important (for our purposes) being named Harmonia.
Why is this important? It explains what's going on with Slytherin house. The purpose of Slytherin house was to unite, because that's what Water is supposed to do, unite unlike things. Instead, Salazar Slytherin became a divider, and Wizarding Society has been divided ever since. Even more interestingly, Water is associated with LOVE! You can even see this in a pun from the Sorting Hat: when Slytherin went away, he left the school "quite downhearted."
So now I think this shows where Harry comes in. He's part like his father, a real Gryffindor, a divider, but he's also part like his mother. Did you notice that Lily was good at Potions, which are the Water magic in the book? And she was obviously pretty tender-hearted. Now Harry's heart, his ability to love, is his most important characteristic. He has become a unifier -- which is the role Water is supposed to play.
So, in a sense, Harry is stepping into the role vacated by Salazar Slytherin -- he's uniting the Wizarding World by bringing unlike people together.
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septentrion - Sep 23, 2005 11:33 am (#12 of 208)
Edited Sep 23, 2005 12:42 pm
And don't forget Harry was nearly sorted in Slytherin.
LooneyLuna : Snape killing Dumbledore and leaving Hogwarts is more of a catalyst bringing people together as opposed to separating them. Initially, there will be panic and discord, but eventually, they will unite
Your comments have made me see Snape's flight like an ourobouros figure. Slytherin left and created discord. Snape left and provoked unity.
Just for the record : in French, we use the word "harmonie" (harmony) to design some musical bands. Didn't you say DD gave importance to music as something which is harmony ?
edit : Snape is a Slytherin and unexpectedly created unity with his actions. He also knew (or created ?) a singing counter-curse to the sectumsempra. Still music as something which reunites what had been seperated, what had been cut, and it comes from Snape.
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Choices - Sep 23, 2005 12:09 pm (#13 of 208)
Dumbledore said, "Music is a magic beyond all we do here".... or something to that effect.
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HungarianHorntail11 - Sep 23, 2005 1:25 pm (#14 of 208)
Great thread, RPS! And I love these posts.
I am wondering if reflection (mirrors) can also relate to water. I know this is stretching it, but JKR refused to discuss the mirror and when I think of reflections, I think of water. How can the mirrors in this series help unity or harmony?
Regarding Slughorn, I stated the following on the Slughorn thread: I kind of thought of Slughorn as a not-so-valiant King Arthur type. Rounding up the best of the best not quite understanding the magnitude of his actions, but ending up with a coming together that will help keep Hogwarts intact.
And this on the White Tomb thread:
“All of those who came to show their respects, even nasty ol' Umbridge, came. I think that in itself shows a sense of unity. It seems as though DD's death shows that all of these people/creatures are capable of working together when push comes to shove. I also think that tragedy brings out the best in people and they work together in ways most never expect. Look at how Harry was able to lift himself above his grief to appreciate Ron and Hermoine's allegiance to him.”
The reason I point this out is because, if two or more people have come up with the same idea separately, then there must be something to it.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 23, 2005 1:34 pm (#15 of 208)
Edited Sep 23, 2005 2:40 pm
Dumbledore said, "Music is a magic beyond all we do here".... or something to that effect. – Choices
That's on SS/PS, p. 128.
Your comments have made me see Snape's flight like an ourobouros figure. Slytherin left and created discord. Snape left and provoked unity.
So many ouroboroses, so little time...
For those of you who haven't dug much into alchemy yet, here's a quickie on the ouroboros...
The Serpent biting its own tail is first seen as early as 1600 years BC in Egypt. From there it moved to the Phonecians and then to the Greeks, who called it the Ouroboros, which means devouring its tail.
The serpent biting its tail is found in other mythoi as well, including Norse myth, where the serpent's name is Jörmungandr, and in Hindu, where the dragon circles the tortoise which supports the four elephants that carry the world.
The ouroboros has several meanings interwoven into it. Foremost is the symbolism of the serpent biting, devouring, eating its own tail. This symbolises the cyclic Nature of the Universe: creation out of destruction, Life out of Death. The ouroboros eats its own tail to sustain its life, in an eternal cycle of renewal. -- From [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
So Sepentrion's description of Snape's flight as an ouroboros is quite apt.
EDIT: Sorry, HH11, you posted while I was ironing my daughter's pants...
Your comments about DD's funeral and Slughorn do reinforce the point pretty well. I think we're pretty much all seeing things coming together. On the "reflection" thing... um, can you explain where you're coming from? I don't see the connection...
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DM Havox - Sep 23, 2005 3:47 pm (#16 of 208)
First and foremost, what and great thread! RPS, my hat's off to you!
One thing the Merpeople and the Centaurs at DD funeral reminded me of was the Fountain of Magical Bretherin at the MoM. DD's "death" is uniting the WW? IMHO, he is the catylist.
Also I remember the centaurs always repeating "Mars is bright tonight" and "Mars being the bringer of battle." I would hope this war, represented by Mars, is the cleansing type of fire. Along the same lines of destruction and renewal, forest fires actually cleanse the environment, and some trees actually need the heat of fire to help reproduce, like the sand pine (not to sound all Discovery Channel or anything). Sort of the phoenix rising from the ashes thing
...I can also see that Malfoy was sort of the leader of the Slytherins, or his group of them anyway, and I could see them being willing to cooperate more easily now he is gone. Slughorn seems more willing to help unite the houses than Snape would have. Maybe we will see the rebirth of the DA since it was a small uniting of 3 of the houses, and maybe some of the Slytherins might join up? Harry is definitely the key to unification.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 23, 2005 5:06 pm (#17 of 208)
Edited Sep 23, 2005 6:07 pm
One of things that is interesting to me is that the Harmony that Dumbledore and Harry create a true harmony. As Leaned Hand once said Right knows no boundaries, and justice no frontiers; the brotherhood of man is not a domestic institution. On the other hand the MoM up to this point has represented a pseudo-harmony that is best represented by the Fountain of Magical Brethren.
Harry's blood is I believe an indivisible unbreakable metaphor for the true harmony that Dumbledore sought to create and Harry as his successor in the quest to defeat Voldemort will complete its creation and preserve it.
RPS, I wonder if it would be possible for me to receive copies of your newsletters. I find your theories fascinating to read.
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wynnleaf - Sep 23, 2005 5:55 pm (#18 of 208)
RPS, I wonder if it would be possible for me to receive copies of your newsletters. I find your theories fascinating to read.
Ditto, RPS
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 23, 2005 6:22 pm (#19 of 208)
Edited Sep 23, 2005 7:34 pm
Uhhh... gee, thanks!
But I'm not writing it anymore... I can send you the good stuff from the past issues. Also, I am still producing occasional, half-size letters with the same sort of information in them.
I had to give up the newsletters because I was under a certain amount of pressure at home to return to my own writing. So Phoenix Song and I are now working toward writing our own work and hopefully getting it published.
Anyway, I'll start sending you the good stuff from the old issues, Nathan and Wynnleaf.
DM Havox, yes, actually there are many references to Mars, and to Venus too. As I recall, on his Astronomy OWL (?) he was mistaking Mars for Venus, or something of that sort (don't have the books right now). Very symbolic. It would have to be symbolic, because if you've ever done any star-gazing, you know that mistaking Mars for Venus is kind of ridiculous. Venus is bright and white; Mars is dim and red.
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Ana Cis - Sep 25, 2005 4:48 pm (#20 of 208)
Edited by Sep 25, 2005 5:49 pm
First, thank you, RSP, for establishing such an interesting thread.
The following idea may sound wacky, but here it goes. When Voldemort used Harry's blood to form his body, doesn't it seem descriptive of a type of ouroboros? LV, totally, evil and lacking of love, incorporates the blood that's filled with magic of a love sacrifice—-a mother sacrificing her life for her child that has a great capacity to love. I'm not very good at logically point it out, but I sense a connection with whole idea of creation out destruction. It seems that both fundamental natures ride within Voldemort.
On a different tangent, in the various stories within each of the books, they consistently show Harry's ability to transcend the prejudices before him. For example:
- In SS - he sees past Hagrid's appearance to his kindness.
- In COS - he's filled with compassion over Dobby's subjugation and sets him free.
- In POA - he stops Remus and Sirius from killing Pettigrew, though guilty of accessory in the murder of Harry's parents; he also forms a close friendship with Remus, a werewolf.
- In GOF - he believes in fairness and shares his knowledge with Cedric, forming a friendship with his competitor, and would have willing let him win.
- In OotP - he's willing to address the injustice towards Snape by confronting Sirius and Lupin on the subject.
- In HBP - he learns to look beyond Luna and Neville's appearances and learns to feel great affection for them; we also see the seeds of compassion for Draco begin to form inside of him.
Except for his intense hate for Snape, Harry shows all the characteristics of becoming a great unifier—-maybe that's that reason there such a close connection between Fawkes and him. However, the biggest personal obstacle towards reaching this goal is his personal enmity against Snape...and maybe even Voldemort. We'll see how he resolves this internal struggle in Book 7.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 25, 2005 6:17 pm (#21 of 208)
First, thank you, Ana Cis, for the compliment!
I see what you mean, about Voldemort's blood being like an ouroboros. You're right. And I expect it'll bite him in the end...
I agree with you that (Harry’s) hatred for Snape is a real obstacle that he has to overcome. That's really quite serious; since love is Harry's most important characteristic, hate of any kind in Harry is a bad thing. Actually, I think he showed just a touch of compassion for Tom Riddle -- remember that Dumbledore asked if he was feeling sorry for Voldemort? He knows that Voldemort has to go, that he is destroying lives and has to be stopped, but I don't think he hates Voldemort as much as he hates what he's doing. But with Snape... yeah, that's real hate, and I think it's got to go.
On the subject of the connection through Harry's blood, I've been thinking that, in the end, we're probably going to see some spectacular magic as a result. The connection with the wands led to some amazing stuff in GoF. The connection through Harry's scar led to some real drama at the end of OotP. So I would expect some fireworks.
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valuereflection - Sep 25, 2005 6:57 pm (#22 of 208)
Round Pink Spider,
I also would like copies of your past newsletters. Thank you.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 27, 2005 9:50 am (#23 of 208)
Edited Sep 27, 2005 10:51 am
This morning, over the phone, Barb made a brilliant observation on this topic that she said I could share with you all. It concerns the spell "Sectumsempra," and it really illustrates the theme of harmony and how important it is.
The Latin word "seco", from which "sectum" comes, does in fact mean wound or cut, BUT (!!!) it also means DIVIDE. And many of you may recognize the word "sempra" from the Marine Corps motto, "Semper Fidelis", as meaning "always". So that means that "sectumsempa" means (approximately) "divide[d] always."
As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, the Element Water is supposed to join unlike things. But Slytherin house has lost this fundamental purpose. Instead of joining others together, they create division and discord. If you look at the scene, you'll notice (as Barb pointed out this morning) that, right before Harry uses Sectumsempra, he hits the cistern right behind Myrtle, so there's water all over the place.
Now all that symbolism is pretty neat all by itself, but this is where it becomes truly amazing. When Snape is healing Malfoy, he's using "an incantation that sounded almost like a song."
He's using music -- harmony, as it were -- to heal the "division."
I just have to sit back and soak in that amazing detail for a moment...
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Phoenix song - Sep 27, 2005 1:25 pm (#24 of 208)
I just have to sit back and soak in that amazing detail for a moment... – RPS
Gee, thanks!
Coming from you that's an enormous compliment!Talk to you soon!
Barb
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 30, 2005 4:18 am (#25 of 208)
I remembered a while ago another instance of Voldemort taking away harmony was when he was a boy. One of the things he took away from one of the other children was a mouth organ, which in the USA we would call a harmonica.
Notice that Harry (for some strange reason) thought that Dumbledore might have it in his office. (That would have been an appropriate place to find harmony...) But Voldemort would never have used a harmonica for a Horcrux!
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T Vrana - Sep 30, 2005 4:21 am (#26 of 208)
RPS- Excellent observation!
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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 4, 2005 9:18 am (#27 of 208)
Edited Oct 4, 2005 10:27 am
Hello, I’d like to thank those that started this discussion as it's been on my mind... have any of you heard of the film 'Fifth Element'? You've already described the alchemical concept, so no matter. It definitely holds a firm place in myths and storytelling.
The value of Harry's blood must be more than the 'sum' of the four houses. Interesting how DD finally verbalizes it when they're at the cave. It was quite a statement given who DD is, JKR didn't give a reaction from Harry though.
The metaphor of it to music is key (ha ha) to book 7 I'm sure. The mouth organ was interesting foreshadowing, and the Weird Sisters reappearance may be important...
Thanks to all for your 'evidence' of this theory.
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Ana Cis - Oct 4, 2005 6:27 pm (#28 of 208)
Edited by Oct 4, 2005 7:28 pm
me and my shadow 813,
It's fascinating; I really like your idea about "The value of Harry's blood must be more than the 'sum' of the four houses." Please expand on your point, sometimes I'm a bit dense. On DD finally verbalizing it, did you mean about Harry's blood being worth more the DD's?
Also, on a side note, I was rereading Book 5 last night, and I caught something I missed before. When Harry was at the hearing and Dumbledore showed up; it hit me right between the eyes! OotP8, p. 139, U.S. Ed: "A powerful emotion had risen in Harry's chest at the sight of Dumbledore, a fortified, hopeful feeling rather like that which phoenix song gave him."
I thought, "WOW! There's a harmonic connection between Harry, Dumbledore, and Fawkes!"...And here you are discussing harmony and harmonica and how Voldemort wouldn't have used a harmonica. Like I said, fascinating...Thanks RSP!
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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 6, 2005 10:00 am (#29 of 208)
Hello again Ana Cis - seems like we're interested in similar threads!
The concept of Harry's blood I think is a symbol for his ability to unite opposing things and make a greater power/force than the two things simply coexisting, greater than the sum of their parts, etc.
I see this most apparent when i just reread the first chapter of book 6. It is a very very foreshadowy chapter in that Harry's power lies in the merging of the muggle world and the wizarding world. It is symbolized with his half-blood and with the struggle between the three half-bloods.
It's huge: the two 'opposing' half-bloods, who have blended in various ways via magic and blood, and the third half-blood severus and the question of his alliegance...
I really want to make this a new thread: The Half-bloods and the Merging of Two Worlds. Again, the first chapter of book 6 is so vital to what i believe will occur in book 7 -- the two worlds merge, but the question is what will the outcome be? terror or harmony? it's almost like the balance lies in Snape's hands more than Harry's...
What do you think?
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 6, 2005 3:44 pm (#30 of 208)
Edited Oct 6, 2005 4:52 pm
Are you two shadowing each other???
Shadow (if I may call you that...), I learned more about the "fifth element" from too much research into Harry Potter than any place else. But I'm familiar with the fifth element. For those not familiar, the "fifth element" is one of many names the alchemists gave to the Philosopher's Stone. Another common name was "the quintessence," which originally was meant to imply that the fifth (and highest) thing would come from the joining of the purest essential natures of the four Elements (if I understand my alchemy correctly).
I absolutely agree with you that Harry's blood is in some way symbolic of the Fifth Element, and that it must be greater than the sum of the four houses.
I'm sure that all references to music are very important. Actually, even Quidditch is played on a "pitch". And just in case you think that's a meaningless coincidence, look at this passage, which I think is a foreshadowing of the end of the story:
The castle seemed very quiet even for a Sunday. Everybody was clearly out in the sunny grounds…He could see people messing around in the air over the Quidditch pitch and a couple of students swimming in the lake… OotP, p. 850
In this scene, all the Elements are properly reunited: the grounds (Earth) are sunny (Fire), and people are swimming in the lake (Water) and flying in the air (Air) over the Quidditch pitch (harmony). Notice, too, that they are in the air, the harmonizing Element, over the "pitch." (I believe that this is the ONLY reference to students deliberately swimming in the lake, probably because Water represents Slytherin house, which is disordered. So now students can swim in it, because Water has been restored to proper union.)
BTW, those who are inclined that way can find numerous Easter references between pages 850 and 853. That was another symbol alchemists used to represent the creation of the Philosopher's Stone. For example, the events in the Ministry took place on a Friday, and this is a Sunday.
As far as the Weird Sisters, keep in mind that the Weird Sisters are a reference to the prophecy, because the three witches who made the prophecy in the play Macbeth were called "the Weird Sisters." (JKR has mentioned the significance of the play in interviews -- it's where she got her ideas about the prophecy. So if you don't know anything about it, go look up a summary on the Internet; you'll be glad you did! ) Weird comes from an Old English word connected to fate. So whenever you see the Weird Sisters mentioned, sit up and take notice!
I thought, "WOW! There's a harmonic connection between Harry, Dumbledore, and Fawkes!" -- Ana Cis
Yes, Fawkes does seem to be a symbol of harmonia in the story. Keep in mind how very significant it must be that an entire chapter of HBP was named "The Phoenix Lament." Someone has speculated before now that Dumbledore's death may result in uniting people.
It’s almost like the balance lies in Snape's hands more than Harry's...
How very true! Now that I've read HBP, I'm more sure than ever that Snape has an important part to play in the last book.
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HungarianHorntail11 - Oct 6, 2005 4:37 pm (#31 of 208)
Edited Oct 6, 2005 5:38 pm
Since you are all discussing connections and harmony, I thought this would fit in from GoF Priori Incantatem:
“And then an unearthly and beautiful sound filled the air . . . .It was coming from every thread of the light-spun web vibrating around Harry and Voldemort. It was a sound Harry recognized, though he had heard it only once before in his life: phoenix song.
It was the sound of hope to Harry . . . the most beautiful and welcome thing he had ever heard in his life . . . He felt as though the song were inside him instead of just around him . . . It was the sound he connected with Dumbledore, and it was almost as though a friend were speaking in his ear. . .
Don't break the connection.”
Well, we have the earth and air connections, as they both rose into the air and then touched down away from the DEs. I can't come up with the fire or water connection, though. The light spun web was gold representing truth (and encompassed them both) the song, harmony, both (truth and harmony) of which are a threat to Big V's existence and he also seems to be fearful. When faced with the absolute coming together/uniting, Harry emerges not only triumphant but extremely powerful when matched up against Big V - Harry is able to force the bead of light back into Big V's wand. Also, it seems as though, no matter how incompetent or helpless Harry seems, he is never alone. Insamuch as Big V thinks he has come farther than any wizard, he is, in essence, regressing.
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T Vrana - Oct 6, 2005 4:42 pm (#32 of 208)
Edited Oct 6, 2005 5:46 pm
HH- Your two missing elements above, isn't Harry as a Gryffindor the fire, and LV as a Slytherin the water?
I think RPS made this connection earlier, Gryffindor- fire, Slytherin-water.
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HR]HungarianHorntail11 - Oct 6, 2005 5:10 pm (#33 of 208)
Edited Oct 6, 2005 6:10 pm
Thank you, I knew I had them somewhere! (You know what they say, good thing my head's attached!) Or is it?
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LooneyLuna - Oct 6, 2005 5:21 pm (#34 of 208)
Edited Oct 6, 2005 6:23 pm
RPS, do you mean that Snape may be *instrumental* in uniting the Wizarding World?
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Ana Cis - Oct 6, 2005 5:49 pm (#35 of 208)
Edited by Oct 6, 2005 6:59 pm
Wow!! You're all giving me goose bumps! I know so very little about Alchemy, though I know a little about music and harmony from playing the piano. This is really so fascinating that I'm printing this information out just so that I can use it as reference when I reread the books!
me and my shadow 813, your theory makes a lot sense to me. So Harry will bring about Harmony both in the WW and the Muggle World. This theory coincide w/JKR's comments. I also agree that Snape will be a critical to Harry's success. As LooneyLuna says, he's "instrumental" This is great!!
RPS, thank you for the summary on Alchemy! As I said, I know very little about it. I've started to read the thread, but honestly is such a looong thread; it will take me forever to read it and try to figure it out.
HH11, after reading your post, that whole section has finally clicked for me. I knew it was key (no pun intended) to the story, but until you tied it to the whole business of the four elements and the song, I couldn't understand the basis for it.
You're all forcing me to reread the stories w/a new perspective!!
EDIT: Just thought of this...One question: Since Voldemort's soul is so damaged, there's no chance for redemption; hence he needs to be destroyed. Does this mean, that Snape being from Slytherin will be redeemed thereby taking LV's places and create the harmony needed within the water element? Does this make sense?
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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 6, 2005 8:42 pm (#36 of 208)
Edited Oct 6, 2005 9:57 pm
Ana Cis - Yes, JKR has said that there's significance to the muggle world and wizard world overlapping. First Sirius appearing on muggle news, I was thinking, hmm. Then in O of P chapter with dementors attacking Dudders and Harry - there's a few mentions of worlds 'fusing' or not being separate.
Then chapter one of HBP it's not only mentioning how the visits between the two Ministers has progressively become more frequent, but the events between the worlds are becoming progressively more intertwined, or at least the awareness for the muggles is increasing. When Fudge is almost shocked that the Prime Minister doesn't get it, I was again thinking hmmm...
JKR mentioned DD killed Grindewald in 1945, alluding to Hitler in her comment that the two worlds are connected. I really love this idea and hope she goes with it in book 7.
PS - regarding your 'edit' portion at the end. I found it interesting how when DD and Slughorn are cleaning up the mess in his house, they are two opposites (tall and thin/short and stout) standing back to back but making the 'identical motion' with their wands. Fire and Water there too.
PPS - Round Pink Spider: have you heard the alchemist term Perfect Ruby? I think it's another term for PS (which i believe was red) -- and ruby is Gryffindor's jewel.
PPPS - to RPS: regarding Weird Sisters - love your insights. the 'bass player for the Weird Sisters' was at DD funeral ceremony.
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T Vrana - Oct 7, 2005 4:31 am (#37 of 208)
Edited Oct 7, 2005 5:31 am
Small matter, but may be important, did DD kill Grindewald? I thought the term 'defeated' was always used. I ask because I wonder if DD has ever killed anyone, and if Harry will actually kill LV, or just defeat him.
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HungarianHorntail11 - Oct 7, 2005 4:38 am (#38 of 208)
Edited Oct 7, 2005 6:42 am
Yes, T Vrana, I can't look it up now, but in one of JKR's interviews, she does confirm this.
Edit: Sorry, I did mean that JKR confirmed that he was dead. There was a discussion a while back as to whether Grindewald was defeated in another sense (perhaps existing as a dementor) and I was thinking along those lines when I responded.
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T Vrana - Oct 7, 2005 5:10 am (#39 of 208)
I'm going to split hairs here. DD defeated Grindewald. Grindewald is dead, JK confirmed this in one interview I found. But I still question if DD killed Grindewald. I can't find any place that it actually says he killed him. (As this ties in with WWII, Hitler, for instance, took his own life...)
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Steve Newton - Oct 7, 2005 5:17 am (#40 of 208)
Actually, as I recall it, JKR confirmed that Grindelwald was dead. No mention of how or when.
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 7, 2005 7:20 am (#41 of 208)
RPS, do you mean that Snape may be *instrumental* in uniting the Wizarding World?
Yeah, I think his efforts may be of note.
Round Pink Spider: have you heard the alchemist term Perfect Ruby? I think it's another term for PS (which i believe was red) -- and ruby is Gryffindor's jewel.
Nope, hadn't heard that one. Actually, I have a picture of Mercury Sulfide crystals (cinnabar), which are the source of the image of the Philosopher's Stone. They look very much like the "crystal" that Harry had in his hand when he lost consciousness in the movie -- but much smaller, of course! And holding real HgS crystals in your hand would of course be a bad idea, since they're poisonous. (I've always wondered if all that mercury was the real reason for some of the alchemical imagery... ) Anyway, of course, no surprise that rubies would be associated with Gryffindor.
RPS, thank you for the summary on Alchemy! As I said, I know very little about it. I've started to read the thread, but honestly is such a looong thread; it will take me forever to read it and try to figure it out.
Ana Cis, I wrote several articles to introduce alchemy and its connections about HP. This thread actually reflects just one small (but important) part of what I found. If you'd like to see the articles, they could get you started. They certainly make many interesting connections with alchemy over on the Alchemy thread, but since they've been at it a long time, it's not such a good place for beginners to learn the topic. I haven't quite covered all the introductory aspects of alchemy in my articles yet, but if you're interested, drop me a note at my e-mail address (which I'll post temporarily below). My sister and I are talking about starting a website with the articles, but I won't have time for that for a few months.
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valuereflection - Oct 7, 2005 7:59 am (#42 of 208)
In Post #30, Round Pink Spider said, "BTW, those who are inclined that way can find numerous Easter references between pages 850 and 853. That was another symbol alchemists used to represent the creation of the Philosopher's Stone. For example, the events in the Ministry took place on a Friday, and this is a Sunday." (from OotP)
I looked at these pages in OotP. I might have seen a couple of Easter references, but I'm not sure about them. If they are numerous, I'm missing some. Please, could you delineate these? I'd be interested in reading this. Thank you.
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 7, 2005 9:14 am (#43 of 208)
I'm sorry, valuereflection! I didn't list them because we're not supposed to discuss religious connections on the Forum, since it might create tension and hostility. I mentioned the Easter connections only because that is another symbol used in alchemy, an unfortunate complication given the rules of the Forum.
I'll send them to you in a private e-mail.
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Steve Newton - Oct 7, 2005 9:50 am (#44 of 208)
OK, I may be dense, but, what pages 850-853?
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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 7, 2005 10:37 am (#45 of 208)
TVrana - interesting regarding Grindewald 'defeated' - yes that would make sense that DD didn't kill him directly, so DD's not a 'murderer' and it would fit the parallel with Hitler's suicide.
Is there any quote regarding killing in self-defense not being a 'soul-splitting' event? I feel that would be valid...
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T Vrana - Oct 7, 2005 10:46 am (#46 of 208)
Edited Oct 7, 2005 12:25 pm
There isn't a quote I know of. I have thought that killing someone while apprehending them, say an Auror apprehending a DE, for instance, would not tear the soul. But in the WW you pick the curses/hexes etc. So in the Muggle world, a criminal might be shot by an officer in defending himself, and the criminal might die. No tear.
But in the WW you have to choose to do an AK. Why not stun a DE? Or use some other hex? So, we know some DEs have died. If an Auror chose an AK, even in defense, does that cause a tear? I'm thinking (just came to me this moment) maybe it does as it was chosen to kill not apprehend or defend...
Unless a DE is hit by more than one powerful stun, by more than one Auror. That would not tear, I wouldn't think.
I assume Aurors do not do Unforgivables, come to think of it.
Have to think about this...
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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 7, 2005 11:54 am (#47 of 208)
Edited Oct 7, 2005 12:54 pm
Yeah, it's a fine line, and as you mentioned it bears strongly on the circumstances in which Harry 'defeats' Vold. Perhaps Harry will simply kill Vold with his unique ability of rebounding Vold's own spell (i.e. how he got his scar). That's definitely not a soul splitting scenario as Harry's already done it with no soul damage.
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 7, 2005 1:34 pm (#48 of 208)
Edited Oct 7, 2005 2:45 pm
(Steve, the "pages 850 to 853" were in OotP; it was a reference to post #30.)
Actually, I think DD misinterpreted the prophecy -- the prophecy never says that either must kill the other. It says that Harry can vanquish Voldemort, and that one must die by the hand of the other. With what we've discovered about Harry's blood, and the possibility that Harry is a Horcrux, I would guess that Harry is going to have to allow Voldemort to try to kill him. I don't know what'll happen, but right now, that's my suspicion.
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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 7, 2005 1:42 pm (#49 of 208)
I guess I need to correct my own post -
Harry wouldn't have incurred soul damage when he received his scar because the rebounding spell didn't kill Vold. But it would have had Vold not been fragmented into six other bits... In any event, of course 1 year old Harry wasn't trying to harm anyone.
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 7, 2005 1:46 pm (#50 of 208)
Sorry -- I must have edited my post after you posted, Shadow.
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Ana Cis - Oct 7, 2005 5:13 pm (#51 of 208)
Edited by Oct 7, 2005 6:14 pm
I've been meaning to ask this for a while, but I keep getting sidetracked by other subjects. If Voldemort tried AK Harry, wouldn't the curse rebound again? Just because he can touch Harry, it doesn't necessarily mean the LV can use the AK spell against Harry. Is the protection gone? This is the part that I'm confused about. Was Lily's protection just temporary?
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T Vrana - Oct 7, 2005 5:24 pm (#52 of 208)
Ana Cis- I think it has to be a one-time deal, otherwise Harry would be invincible...
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Ana Cis - Oct 7, 2005 7:34 pm (#53 of 208)
Edited by Oct 7, 2005 8:36 pm
T Vrana, That's a deduction, but I don't see it being explicitly addressed. I guess it's to keep us guessing until book 7.
Here's where my confusion lies: in OotP37, Dumbledore states that Harry's mother gave him a lingering protection that LV never expected. This protection flows through Harry's veins which Dumbledore takes advantage its properties to protect Harry until he's 17. However, this section is still very vague. What does lingering mean in terms of time? What does protection mean in terms of actual effects? The only things we know about the protection is that 1) it protected Harry from the AK spell, but we don't know for how long or if the protection was for only certain spells; 2) it also protected Harry from LV's touch until he came to life using Harry's blood; and 3) Dumbledore took advantage of this it to place the protection charm on Harry. Yet we're assuming it only protected Harry from the AK charm only for that one time. We can also deduce that this protection may also provide Harry with the magical properties required to create the harmonizing effects needed to bring the four elements, hence the four houses, together.
Maybe I'm being to nitpicky, but I feel there are still a lot of questions left unanswered. If I'm way off and am overanalyzing this whole blood protection subject, please let me know so that I can tell my self, have a butterbeer and quit thinking so much! Ah, a nice glass of mead will do...
Oh! While I'm on a roll, I keep reading that Harry will probably have to die; with all this big deal about his blood being special w/this lingering protection, why does he need to die?
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Steve Newton - Oct 8, 2005 5:24 am (#54 of 208)
Thanks, RPS.
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T Vrana - Oct 8, 2005 6:32 am (#55 of 208)
Ana Cis- Looking at the MoM scene with DD, Harry and LV, DD protects Harry from LV's AK. So DD, at least, thinks Lily's protection against curses, was temporary. In addition, LV was able to Crucio Harry.
Lily's blood still protects Harry when he's at Privet Drive. DD (JKR) has made such a huge point if this, I would think it possible we see this protection in action in book 7.
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Ana Cis - Oct 8, 2005 7:25 am (#56 of 208)
Bear with me on this. What Lily did was unprecedented. Therefore, no one, including Dumbledore, knows all of its ramifications. This was proven by the fact that he was mistakenly concerned over LV's ability to possess Harry. DD's protection against LV's AK curse may again be a mistaken impression.
I'm not totally committing myself to this theory. However, since history has a tendency to repeat itself; and Jo Rowling knows this. There may be an opportunity for this to happen again. Where LV sends another AK spell against Harry, it again rebounds. However, because there are no Horcruxes left, LV simply dies. Harry's scar may just become a normal scar. This may be a
letdown for a lot of people, but it does reconcile my concern over Harry having to intentionally kill LV.
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HungarianHorntail11 - Oct 8, 2005 8:34 am (#57 of 208)
Edited Oct 8, 2005 9:35 am
Ana Cis, I agree with that line of thinking and posted it here a while back. It would also fit in with the ouroboros theory on the alchemy thread.
One other thought I had regarding Harry and the quintessence. I don't know if this matters in the overall scheme of things, but I always thought of Harry as uniting the houses in literal terms rather than figuratively; but what if it is meant figuratively, i.e., Harry is the quintessence by way of funnelling or channelling the power of the four (using their intelligence, knowledge, or powers, whatever they offer) in an effort to vanquish Big V?
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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 8, 2005 9:35 am (#58 of 208)
HHorntail 11, I like your thinking on that.
RPS, Have you read anywhere about JKR's nonconventional use of the opposite elements? Meaning, in astrology fire/air are opposites and earth/water. Is there a discussion from her somewhere on this?
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T Vrana - Oct 8, 2005 9:43 am (#59 of 208)
Edited Oct 8, 2005 10:44 am
HH and Ana Cis- I see your points, but think that, since LV can Crucio Harry, he can AK him as well.
Harry was the boy who lived, because of his mother's love. This helped in SS as well. Fawkes helped in the CoS. James in a way in PoA. In GoF, Fawkes, DD, LV's victims, all helped save Harry. OotP, DD saved Harry. I think, as the Chosen One, not just the boy who lived, he will have to defeat LV alone, with his own love. No mom, dad or DD to protect or help. If Lily's love saves him in the end, has he really arrived as a hero, or is he just the boy who lived still?
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 8, 2005 12:31 pm (#60 of 208)
I keep reading that Harry will probably have to die; with all this big deal about his blood being special w/this lingering protection, why does he need to die? -- Ana Cis
This is an alchemical detail, Ana Cis, one that's not in the stuff I sent you earlier today. When JKR answered the question about Neville on her website, she indicated that the Chosen One, the one whom Voldemort marked by his attack, is a king: "So where does this leave Neville, the boy who was so nearly King?" I'm not going to debate in which sense Harry is a "king", but there's almost certainly a connection with alchemy. And in alchemy, the Red King has to die and be reborn in some way.
If you look, you'll find that Harry enters an "underworld" or a land of the dead in every book. I'm sure book 7 will be no exception. And in all the books, he dies a figurative death. In SS/PS, he ended up in a coma. In CoS, he nearly died from the basilisk venom. In PoA it was the dementors near the lake. In GoF I would say it was his collapse after returning from the graveyard, although that could be debated. In OotP it was being possessed; he was on the ground afterwards. I would question whether there really was a figurative death in HBP; however, JKR has said that the last two are like one book in some ways. He did enter a land of the dead, though. So we can reasonably expect that Harry will "die", or come near death, in the last book.
Have you read anywhere about JKR's nonconventional use of the opposite elements? Meaning, in astrology fire/air are opposites and earth/water. Is there a discussion from her somewhere on this? – Shadow
I have really studied JKR's use of the Four Elements and their opposites. I assure you that her pairings are entirely conventional. She definitely pairs Fire and Water!
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Ana Cis - Oct 8, 2005 6:47 pm (#61 of 208)
Edited by Oct 8, 2005 7:50 pm
T Vrana – We're seeing it slightly different which is fine. My post below isn't to disagree with you, but to share my perception for I feel this is one of the more critical subjects in Potterverse. Throughout the series, I've seen Harry (with his magical abilities) as going at it alone against Voldemort (and his magical abilities). I will go into more detail in the paragraphs below.
A key point: Lily's love sacrifice is a critical part of what provides the magical properties within Harry's blood, which is the reason Voldemort wanted to use it. It is also an inherent part of Harry as a human being and a wizard. Without it, Harry would have been just a normal boy like Neville the other boys in the wizarding world.
Just as the magical abilities provided by LV, and the acquired knowledge and wisdom from Dumbledore's lessons will help Harry fight Voldemort, I believe these inherent magical properties will do the same without making Harry less of a hero. I'll repeat Dumbledore's words from CS, "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." Hence, it will be Harry's choices, not his protections or his abilities, that will make him a hero at the end. Just as his choice to confront the danger regardless of the risk to himself, or the help he received, has made him a hero throughout the whole series. Except for his mother protecting him as a baby, IMO, the help he received were mostly tools that he could use during the conflict:
- In SS: Although he had help from his friends to get to the stone, he alone confronted Voldemort. He used his knowledge about the Mirror of Erised, and the realization that his touch was a weapon to help him defeat Voldemort.
- In CS: Fawkes did blind the basilisk, and strengthened Harry's spirit though its song. However, Harry had still had to risk his life, and had to kill the basilisk with the sword, as well as come up with the realization that he could use the fang to destroy the diary--his actions, not Fawkes'.
- In POA: He, alone, confronted the dementors. It was "his love" for his father and Sirius that allowed him to successfully produce a corporeal Patronus. The fact that the Patronus was his father in his animagous form just "reflects his great love" for his father. Without this, James as you said could not have helped him fight the dementors.
- In GOF: Harry was alone, when "consciously chose" to confront Voldemort, providing the opportunity to use his wand and the properties within the wands. You see it as Fawkes, DD, and Voldemort's victims helping Harry. I see it as good/light ancient magic within Harry that helped come up with Fawkes, DD, and LV's victims as weapons. Just as dark magic, Wormtail,and Nagini were Voldemort's weapons during the confrontation.
- In OotP: Yes, DD helped him, but we'll never know if it was needed. However, at the end, the conflict still came down to be between Voldemort and Harry alone. Harry's magic, Love, was more powerful than Voldemort's magic of possession.
Maybe RPS would say this . It's the inherent properties within Harry that helps him harmonize with all that have helped him fight Voldemort throughout the series. I don't see why this would change, except that it would be more explicit thereby easier to perceive in Book 7.
RPS – Thanks again for the information. I'd like to discuss this "underworld" that Harry enters in the near future. I'd like to learn more about it and the alchemic process. However, this post is long enough as it is.
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T Vrana - Oct 8, 2005 8:23 pm (#62 of 208)
Ana Cis- I do see your point, but still feel while Harry is extraordinary, and has chosen to take on these challenges alone, he has had help all along, and was never truly alone, and will now need to stand on his own. Feel this even more strongly now that I've re-read 1-5 and just started 6. From DD:
The magic I evoked fifteen years ago means that Harry has powerful protection while he can still call this house 'home'. [removed unimportant to the argument text, bad typist, lazy] This magic will cease to operate the moment Harry turns seventeen; in other words, at the moment he becomes a man.
While Lily's love and sacrifice will always be a part of Harry, her protection, IMHO, will not. He will become a man and fight LV as a man, not a boy protected by his mother. If all he has to do is hunt down the horcruxes then stand in front of LV and be AK'd, I'll be disappointed.
Just my humble opinion, but Harry, as a man, will not be protected the same way he was as a boy...
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RoseMorninStar - Oct 8, 2005 8:44 pm (#63 of 208)
Edited Oct 8, 2005 9:49 pm
Someone in another thread suggested this one to me-I have only read about the last 40 posts and I see I will have to go back and read the first 20 or so to fully participate. It would be really interesting to know how deeply JKR tied in these concepts of alchemy in the book. I mean, it is obvious that she did quite a bit of research, or at the least read a lot of books with historical/mythological/magical references. If I can correctly recall, I think she had the names of the four houses on the very first day Harry 'walked' into her mind, fully formed. She wrote the names of the houses on a 'sick' bag of the train she was riding on.
I hope I am not being redundant as I have discussed what I have come to conclude about the blood protection in other threads, here goes.
- I think that Lily provided Harry with an exceptional level of protection when she sacrificed herself. She did not do this intentionally, because it was something unexpected that no one had experienced before. This protection was Love. It was in Harry's very skin. This is why Quirrelmort could not touch Harry. This is why Voldemort used Harry's blood in his rebirthing ceremony and why this form of protection is no longer a hurdle for Harry. Harry still has Lily's love & protection in his skin, it just no longer protects him from Voldemort. Voldemort thinks he has overcome a huge hurdle. And he has. But I think there is more.
- Dumbledore, either having been told what happened to Lily & James or just realizing that Harry needed protection after the deaths of both of his parents, decided to cast a charm that would afford Harry the best level of protection he could give him until he was 'of age'. This 'charm' had to be sealed by a blood relative...a relative who had the same blood flowing in their veins as Harry's mother, Lily. So, it was up to Petunia to agree to the terms of this charm . . whatever that agreement was, we do not know (in Dumbledore's original correspondence to Petunia?). This charm protected Harry in what way? We aren't really told how.. perhaps it is a bit like an 'unplottable' charm. Where he cannot be found as long as he calls the house of a blood relative 'home'? Perhaps that is why, in GoF they had to bring Harry to them. We don't know for sure.
- I have an odd, nagging feeling that Dumbledore might be related to Gryffindor. I can't explain exactly why. I just do. Maybe it's the whole Phoenix/fire connection. And that he has Gryffindor's sword.
In a recent interview JKR is asked how Harry's grandparents died and she answers that that takes her into more 'mundane' territory and she just had to get rid of them so that Harry would only have one remaining relative. Then the interview says "That sort of shuts down the Heir of Gryffindor, as well." JKR pauses and says, "yeah, well -yeah." ARGH! I wish the interviewer would have been more clear with their question rather than 'assuming'...they ruined the answers to a couple of questions that way!!! I think that bit of conversation is very ambiguous.
- I still believe that this part of the prophecy: '..he will have power the dark lord knows not' has something to do with the 'gleam' in Dumbledore's eye at the end of GoF and with the 'plan' that he had at the end of HBP. I am not sure if Dumbledore actually died or if he will be reborn in another form or what....but I do think it was part of a plan, and I think it will somehow give Harry 'a power the dark lord knows not."
I think the glint in Dumbledore's eye..and whatever he did with the plan that ended in his 'death' afforded Harry some type of protection that the 'dark lord knows not'. I think when Harry faces Voldemort for the final showdown, Voldemort will attempt to kill Harry with an AK... and it will rebound because of that special protection OR it will hit his scar, which is the final horcrux (destroying it)and the AK will rebound, hitting Voldemort, killing him. In this way, Harry will "Vanquish" the dark lord, without having to kill him directly, which I do not think he will (I do not think Harry will not kill Voldemort directly).
Someone was discussing earlier about the harmony between the wizarding and muggle worlds. JKR was asked that question. Here it is:
Calliope: Are the Muggle and Magical worlds ever going to be rejoined? JK Rowling replies -> No, the breach was final, although as book six shows, the Muggles are noticing more and more odd happenings now that Voldemort's back. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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I do love the idea of there being some type of 'harmony' theme interwoven throughout the series. I just went back and read the first post in this thread. Then I read the Emerson/Melissa/JKR interview again. I will definitely have to finish reading the earlier posts give this more thought!!
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T Vrana - Oct 9, 2005 6:30 am (#64 of 208)
Edited Oct 9, 2005 8:51 am
Ana Cis- I think we are close to agreeing. It is Harry's ability to love that will save him (the attempted possession by LV at the MoM was broken by Harry's love for Sirius, had nothing to do with Lily's protection, or he could not have possessed him even momentarily).
What I do not agree with, and perhaps I misunderstood your point, is that Lily's love and sacrifice will protect Harry and help him defeat LV. While Harry carries Lily's blood, he has had choices, as you mentioned, and it is his choices and his ability to love that DD indicates are his strength:
“You are protected by your ability to love!” said Dumbledore loudly. "The only protection that can possibly work against the lure of power like Voldemort's! In spite of all the temptation you have endured, all the suffering, you remain pure of heart, just as pure as you wereat the age of eleven, when you stared into a mirror that reflected your heart's desire, and it showed you only the way to thwart Lord Voldemort, and not immortality or riches. Harry, have you any idea how few wizards could have seen what you saw in that mirror?...."
Lily was able to save baby Harry with her love and sacrifice. But Harry's entire quest can't be about Lily's love and sacrifice, it has to be about his own ability to love and sacrifice. It has to be about his choices. His mother's love does live on in him, but he is still his own wizard with choices.
If LV is to die by a rebounded curse, it can't, in my opinion, be from Lily's love and sacrifice, or we have literally gone nowhere and Harry's ability to love and sacrifice will be unimportant, it will still be about Lily's choice. If LV dies from a rebounded curse, it will be Harry's love and willingness to sacrifice that will power it. This is Harry's story. Lily gave him a start, as do all mothers, and she gave him a really good start, unlike some mothers, but what happens as children grow and mature is about their choices, not their mother's.
HH- I think this still fits the ouroboros theory as we are back at love and sacrifice, and a deflected curse.
Just MHO...
EDIT- I want to add that Snape tells Bella that LV's using Harry's blood to regenerate makes LV invincible. A lie, I think. LV now how Harry's blood, Lily's blood, so he can touch Harry and that little obstacle is overcome. But that is old news. Harry still has a power LV knows not, Harry's ability to love. LV is still dwelling on the protection Lily gave Harry as a baby. Harry, been there, done that. Harry's own power, love, sacrifice will defeat LV, and LV will be surprised...again...
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RoseMorninStar - Oct 9, 2005 9:51 am (#65 of 208)
Edited Oct 9, 2005 10:54 am
T Vrana, good point. I have given this some thought. Dumbledore saw Tom Riddle grow up. Tom went from abandoned orphan who was very bright - to the evil being he has become. Harry grew up - an abandoned orphan - taken in by a family who neither wanted nor loved him. Tom Riddle and Harry have much in common. Yet...because Harry can love, after all he has been through..that choice, that choice to love, is what makes him different from Voldemort. That evil path not taken by Harry-beginning with how they reacted to finding out they were wizards (Tom wanting proof/and to go it alone - Harry awed and ready to accept new friends in his new world) to the sorting hat and Harry's choice NOT to be in Slytherin... although it told him he could be 'great'. Perhaps the sorting hat told Tom Riddle the same thing. And Tom perhaps made another choice.
Is part of that reason because he was loved by his mother/his parents? Could that make such a difference even though Harry was too small to really remember it? Could that love have created the change in Harry that Voldemort lacks? Or, was it that love that lingered on Harry that enabled him to continue to search for that in his life, rather than go it alone?
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wynnleaf - Oct 9, 2005 11:03 am (#66 of 208)
Edited Oct 9, 2005 12:06 pm
I can't think of anything said by anyone (characters or JKR) that indicates that Harry got his ability to love from Lily's sacrifice.
On a purely developmental level, it would be far more likely that a baby who had never had loving care as an infant would grow up without learning empathy, than for a baby who had experienced love and care for the first 15 months. You may recall the situations in eastern Europe (was it Albania?) where many children had who had been in orphanages since birth, and had not received any personal nurturing as babies, grew up with severe attachment disorders and were unable to empathize with other people. Babies do learn a great deal from even the first weeks after birth about love and how to communicate and empathize with others. Without empathy, you can't love. It's a basis for the ability to love.
Lily and James did give Harry that loving nurture as a baby, so in that way, they both did help to give him the ability to love. But I don't see anything in the books or JKR's comments that indicates Harry actually got his ability to love from Lily's sacrifice -- as though his ability to love came by magic.
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Ana Cis - Oct 9, 2005 11:20 am (#67 of 208)
Edited by Oct 9, 2005 12:28 pm
Rose - I'll get back to your post a little later, for I read some interesting points.
T Vrana - It's about the nuances and how we interpret the words and phrases that make us view things differently. Please, don't be humble in your opinion; I totally respect it even if I may disagree. When I disagree with someone, I don't just turn it off or ignore it. I just put it in shelf, to be recalled when additional evidence or understanding validates it because I know that I'm not all knowing and that I've been unable to reach that same frame of reference with those theories or ideas.
Back to the subject at hand...
TVrana: "What I do not agree with, and perhaps I misunderstood your point, is that Lily's love and sacrifice will protect Harry and help him defeat LV. While Harry carries Lily's blood, he has had choices, as you mentioned, and it is his choices and his ability to love that DD indicates are his strength" I do believe that Lily's love and sacrifice will protect him. However, I'll explain it further down in post.
Lily was able to save baby Harry with her love and sacrifice. But Harry's entire quest can't be about Lily's love and sacrifice, it has to be about his ability to love and sacrifice. It has to be about his choices. His mother's love does live on in him, but he is still his own wizard with choices.
My point is that they're about both, and they are so thoroughly integrated that we can't be separate them into an either or situation. Therefore, to a certain extent, it is about both James and Lily's love and sacrifice, because without it Harry wouldn't be Harry. That event is an integral part of Harry's person that cannot be separated from him. It's from them that he gets the great capacity to love. In POA22, Dumbledore tells Harry that the dead they loved never truly leaves them; and that in times of great trouble they recall them more clearly as was proven by Harry's ability call James as his Patronus. To me, the magic of Lily's love and sacrifice will always protect him. How that protection will manifest itself, we won't actually know until Book 7. I just put a theory out there as a possibility and for one to ponder. I'm sure JKR has her own ideas and will surprise us all when we read it.
T Vrana: If LV is to die by a rebounded curse, it can't, in my opinion, be from Lily's love and sacrifice, or we have literally gone nowhere and Harry's ability to love and sacrifice will be unimportant, it will still be about Lily's choice. If LV dies from a rebounded curse, it will be Harry's love and willingness to sacrifice that will power it. This is Harry's story. Lily gave him a start, as do all mothers, and she gave him a really good start, unlike some mothers, but what happens as children grow and mature is about their choices, not their mother's."
When I speak about this inherent protection I don't mean to imply that that is all there is to Harry, but that it's a major and integral part of him. And it's integral to him because he understands it as being part of him and consciously chooses to accept it. It is quite different for Tom Riddle as we see in the passage below occurred in HBP, [Dumbledore: "...near the end of her pregnancy, Merope was alone in London and in desperate need of gold, desperate enough to sell her one and only valuable possession, the locket that was one of Marvolo's treasured family heirlooms." "But she could do magic!" said Harry impatiently. "She could have got food and everything for herself by magic, couldn't she?" "Ah," said Dumbledore, "perhaps she could. But, it is my belief...that when her husband abandoned her; Merope stopped using magic...Merope refused to use her wand even to save her own life." "She wouldn't even stay alive for her son?" Dumbledore raised his eyebrows, "Could you possibly be feeling sorry for Lord Voldemort?" Then it goes into the subject Lily's and Merope's choices.
There's an overabundance of information and implications within these passages. However, they belong in other threads, and my focus is the parts showing what Tom Riddle inherited from his parents that are also an integral part of who he is. Does this excuse the evil within him? No, but one can understand that he didn't inherit the magic of love the way Harry did. Still, Tom made it worse by consciously choosing to reject his Muggle ancestry and the concept of Love; he sought revenge instead of compassion and forgiveness for his mother and father. Consequently, Tom Riddle inherited and chose the prejudices, greed, and hate inherent within his ancestry. What make this whole subject difficult is that nothing is cut and dry with any well defined lines, but it's intermixed between what we inherit, the environment around us, and the choices we make.
EDIT: wynnleaf - please quote the reference. There's a lot for information out there, and it may have been misworded. Thanks.
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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 9, 2005 1:10 pm (#68 of 208)
Edited Oct 9, 2005 2:26 pm
RPS - Yes since JKR has educated herself so enormously on many levels i figured her element pairings were from an established sourcing (other than astrology). I was wondering, if it is from conventional alchemical sourcings, might you explain or might you direct me to an approximate post where you covered it.
Edit – I see in your initial post that fire and water in equal amounts will eliminate each other. That's sufficient. Thanks.
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T Vrana - Oct 9, 2005 1:30 pm (#69 of 208)
Edited Oct 9, 2005 3:36 pm
wynnleaf- Not sure if you were responding to my post, I agree Harry did not magically inherit his ability to love, and wasn't trying to imply he did. In my opinion, the magic involved in Lily's sacrifice gave Harry a one- time shield from LV's AK, and a lasting protection from his touch, but the latter is negated now that LV used Harry's blood to regenerate. The magic DD used, based on Lily's sacrifice gives Harry some type of protection 'til age 17.
Ana Cis- Will respond shortly.
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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 9, 2005 3:49 pm (#70 of 208)
Edited Oct 9, 2005 4:50 pm
I was just perusing the "JKR interview with Emerson and Melissa" thread and found an interesting theory posted on DD's family being killed either in Grindewald times or earlier. Say a wife and kids, and that now DD has no heir to his Gryffindor 'throne'. That makes a lot of sense that JKR says don't bother guessing about James's family line. I'm probably the last one to figure this out but it does seem to fit nicely into the tale. It would make Harry perhaps his chosen heir.
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 9, 2005 5:49 pm (#71 of 208)
Since we're kicking around the topic of the final confrontation between Harry and Voldemort, I'm going to offer my opinion (for what's it's worth -- not much really
) that Voldemort is going to fulfill the ouroboros image of biting his own tail because of the blood he took from Harry. Harry's blood now acts as a harmonia between Harry and Voldemort: it joins them together. Nobody can know what effect that will have magically if Voldemort tries to kill him. But I don't believe that Harry's love will protect him (just as Lily's love didn't protect her). Instead, I speculate that it will lead him to sacrifice himself for everyone else. I think that it's at the moment of Harry's death or near-death that the business with the blood will bite Voldemort "in the end."My suspicion is that Voldemort may die and Harry may live because he used Harry's blood. But there will probably be a lot more to it than that.
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T Vrana - Oct 9, 2005 6:05 pm (#72 of 208)
Ana Cis- We agree that Lily's and Jame's love and sacrifice help make Harry who he is, so, in a way, they are still part of him and they are part of the reason his is able to love. We also agree Harry has made choices, so he is also who he is because he has made cerrtain choices and values love over power.
Where we part is the very specific magic, based on a very specific action, required to rebound an AK when Harry is a man. If Harry can rebound an AK (not necessarily one aimed at him, if his sacrifice or love will shield someone else. But, how strong would a sacrifice be if it was made not for someone you love, but someone you hate...? Hmmm) it will be his sacrifice, not Lily's at work. He made it that far because of Lily, but Lily's love and sacrifice did their job, they got him to manhood, they influenced who he would be, now it is up to him.
I agree Lily's sacrifice and love will always be with Harry, but no longer as a shield. Harry was shielded as a child. Now, as a man, that love and sacrifice that helped shape him, is still part of him, but can no longer shield him or others. Now he will have to choose, perhaps, whether to sacrifice for someone else.
It is rather like raising any child. You try to teach them to be kind, decent, loving, brave individuals. You protect them from harm. But one day they leave and go out into the world. You no longer protect them physically, but you have armed them, hopefully, with the tools to be decent and safe. But you don't follow them around making sure they don't get hurt, and they make their own decisions.
So, Lily's love and sacrifice will always be a part of Harry, but I really doubt that it will protect him or anyone else from an AK. Only Harry will be able to do that. And we don't even know if he can.
Hope that makes sense...I think we basically agree...
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wynnleaf - Oct 9, 2005 6:15 pm (#73 of 208)
Edited Oct 9, 2005 7:19 pm
Ana Cis said
EDIT: wynnleaf - please quote the reference. There's a lot for information out there, and it may have been misworded. Thanks.
And T Vrana said
wynnleaf- Not sure if you were responding to my post, I agree Harry did not magically inherit his ability to love, and wasn't trying to imply he did.
I wasn't responding to you, T Vrana, but to RoseMorninStar who posted immediately previously to me. Perhaps I misunderstood her post, but she appeared to be speculating on how Harry got his ability to love, since his childhood had such similarities to LV, who cannot love. She pointed out that he only spent a little over 1 year with Lily and James. She (I thought) speculated as to whether he got his ability to love from Lily and James' love during those 14-15 months, or whether it was a lingering love affect, presumably I thought she meant, from Lily's sacrifice. That's what I thought she meant, and it seemed to fit with RoseMorninStar's other theories regarding Lily's sacrifice.
That's why I didn't reference the post, Ana Cis, since it was immediately preceding mine. At least, I assume that's what you meant by "quote the reference," since there weren't any other references alluded to in my post. If I was going to put the quote in, I'd have had to use RoseMorninStar's entire post.
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RoseMorninStar - Oct 9, 2005 8:39 pm (#74 of 208)
wynnleaf, I wasn't implying that Harry got his ability to love through Lily's sacrifice. But simply by the love of his parents (death/no death/with sacrifice or not). The references you made to the poor children of the orphanges of Russia & Romania is the perfect case in point. This love is nothing specific to the 'magical' wizarding world..but something 'magical' that all parents should pass on to their children. Merope's abandonment of Tom (she felt she had nothing to live for...which doesn't say much about her innate capability to love) left Tom without even the tiniest sense of nurture. I would think that any orphan would like to think that their parent did everything in their power to live for them... even to the point of dying for them. Merope did neither. And it is sad.
I think I was trying, in my comments, to provoke conversation about what makes the essential difference between Harry & Voldemort. Dumbledore has commented on it several times. Voldemort has commented on what they have in common. Harry has asked about them having similarities and differences. Harry even felt some sympathy toward Voldemort when he heard about some of his circumstances--but that is the difference between Harry & Voldmeort. Harry can feel. He has compassion. Harry usually dismisses Dumbledore's comments about the difference is that Harry has the capacity to love with a 'Yeah, yeah, yeah...so what, big deal, I can love...' kind of way.
The hate and arrogance of the pure-blood families seems to be 'born out in the blood' and that is what will be the end of them. For example.. look at how many of 'the last of their houses' are in the books. Sirius was the last in his line..yet his cousin Bellatrix kills him. There is very little love left in many of the pure-blood wizarding families. They are the biggest threat in and of themselves.
And then, there is another pure-blood wizarding family...the Weasley's that is a family full of love and care for one another. But they are not full of 'blood-pride'.
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Ana Cis - Oct 10, 2005 7:49 am (#75 of 208)
Edited by Oct 10, 2005 8:55 am
wynnleaf – You got it right, just wanted to know who or what you were referencing.
Ana Cis – Post#51-"I've been meaning to ask this for a while, but I keep getting sidetracked by other subjects. If Voldemort tried AK Harry, wouldn't the curse rebound again? Just because he can touch Harry, it doesn't necessarily mean the LV can use the AK spell against Harry. Is the protection gone? This is the part that I'm confused about. Was Lily's protection just temporary?"
T Vrana – I referenced back to my question because we've been more or less talking around my specific question. When I asked about Lily's protection, I never meant that Harry's protection was against the whole Wizarding community, but specifically against Voldemort. If it was against the whole Wizarding community, I agree with your comment that it would have made Harry invincible—there would be no point to the story.
Lily's protection was against Voldemort himself because that's who she was protecting Harry from when she died. I believe this point is clear; so my question was if it being temporary. I believe Round Pink Spider answered it on another thread, "Long Theory about Harry's Family"- RPS's Post #544
Based on what she wrote, this is how I understand it. Lily's protection against Voldemort was not temporary due to this whole blood relationship magical attributes which Dumbledore explained to Harry. However, since LV used Harry's blood, LV has immunized himself and can not only touch Harry, but AK him as well. So in the end we do agree. If Voldemort uses the AK spell, it won't rebound as it did the first time.
Rose: This love is nothing specific to the 'magical' wizarding world..but something 'magical' that all parents should pass on to their children. Merope's abandonment of Tom (she felt she had nothing to live for...which doesn't say much about her innate capability to love) left Tom without even the tiniest sense of nurture. I would think that any orphan would like to think that their parent did everything in their power to live for them... even to the point of dying for them. Merope did neither. And it is sad.
I agree with your view that Love is "magical"--carries a certain spiritual power. At 11 years old, Harry was hungry for love and affection. When Hagrid showed up, treating him as someone special and showing so much affection, Harry responded right away. If there were two people who really needed love and acceptance, they were Harry and Hagrid. JKR's has done a beautiful job in demonstrating there affection; it's so palpable. I believe that's the reason that Dumbledore sent Hagrid. He knew they would automatically connect with each other. I also believe that he understood Harry's desire to be loved and it's one of the many reasons that he placed the mirror of Erised in a location where Harry would find it and see how much his parents loved him. Although, the mirror doesn't necessarily show the truth, this is one time that it showed what was true because Dumbledore knew that Harry's parents loved him deeply. Once he experienced this, it was easier for Harry to comprehend his parents' sacrifice to protect him.
On another subject: I researching JKR's quotes to see if she uses the word alchemy in any of her comments...haven't found any so far. However, when she explained how the character of Harry came into her mind, she says this: "I knew instantly that he was a wizard, but he didn’t know that yet. Then I began to work out his background. That was, that was the basic idea. He’s a boy who is magic but doesn’t yet know. So I’m thinking, well how can he not know. You know, so I worked backwards from that point."
Ref: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Harry is magic vs. Harry can use magic. This statement startled me; I didn't catch it in previous readings. Have any of you noted previously. Was this a misstatement, or did she mean to say that his whole essence is magic or magical? ...your thoughts?
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T Vrana - Oct 10, 2005 8:03 am (#76 of 208)
Ana Cis- When I asked about Lily's protection, I never meant that Harry's protection was against the whole Wizarding community, but specifically against Voldemort
I understood that we were just talking about LV. I had the impression that the argument was that Lily's sacrifice and love would still protect Harry from an AK. Looks like we agree it probably would not.
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Paulus Maximus - Oct 10, 2005 8:11 am (#77 of 208)
Edited Oct 10, 2005 9:16 am
Is there any quote regarding killing in self-defense not being a 'soul-splitting' event? I feel that would be valid...
Murder splits the soul, but they do not say whether all killing is murder. Here's one definition, from [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
crime of killing somebody: the crime of killing another person deliberately and not in self-defense or with any other extenuating circumstance recognized by law
Therefore, it seems as if killing somebody in self-defense, or with other "extenuating circumstances recognized by law", would not be considered murder. Dumbledore was not a murderer even if he killed Grindelwald, and Harry will not be a murderer even if he succeeds in killing Voldemort.
On the other hand, Harry does mention at the end of book 5 that his life must either include or end in murder... I personally think that he was mistaken.
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T Vrana - Oct 10, 2005 8:23 am (#78 of 208)
But is it ever self- defense to AK someone? If you can hit someone with an AK, you can hit them with some other hex to stop them. Unless AK is the only thing that will stop someone (let's say they are using a shield charm, and only an AK can get through it), I would think choosing to use an AK would never qualify under self defense.
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Ana Cis - Oct 10, 2005 8:42 am (#79 of 208)
Like everyone, I've also thought about this issue. Subsequently, I've been reviewing the books and have noticed that Dumbledore has never killed anyone. Based on his anger, he could have killed Barry Crouch Jr. Under the circumstances and our viewpoint, he would have been justified. Yet he didn't. My hypothesis is that magic in itself can be so damaging that there may not be a reason to kill when you can stun, freeze, or use so many different types of defensive and offensive spells. I believe that’s Barry Crouch Sr. went wrong when he gave Aurors the authority to use the AK spell. So IMO, killing damages the soul in some way. If you noticed every time Harry has tried to use an unforgivable or dark spell, it has gone badly for him. I don't believe that killing is the route he needs to take.
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RoseMorninStar - Oct 10, 2005 9:08 am (#80 of 208)
Edited Oct 10, 2005 10:12 am
Definition of murder: the unlawful and malicious or premeditated killing of one human being by another; also, any killing done while committing another felony (crime).
I think that murder, by definition, is death that is caused outside the realm of self-defense measures or accidents. Those types of deaths would not 'tear ones soul in two'.
I do think that JKR will come up with a way of having Harry 'vanquish' Lord Voldemot without Harry having to kill him. I think that the word 'vanquish' was carefully used...both in the case of the prophecy, and in describing Dumbledore's 'defeat' of the dark lord Grindelwald. Don't get me wrong..I think Voldemort will die...but he just won't be killed in a 'direct' way by Harry.
Sort of like in the Wizard of OZ...Dorothy 'defeated' one witch by having the house from Kansas fall on her. Yes, Dorothy 'killed' her..but not in a direct, intentional or pre-meditated way. Also, when she went to defend herself against the other witch (sorry, can't remember their names) she threw a bucket of water on her..and she melted. Now, Dorothy killed that witch too..but in a way that was not murder. It was indirect and innocent. I think that somehow JKR will come up with a way for Harry to 'vanquish' Voldemort without directly having to kill him. And all of the signs point to it having something to do with blood, love, and harmony.
Speaking of harmony, I am still quite curious as to what JKR means when she says there is more to the sorting hat than we know (It always seems to be talking about harmony):
The character you might be most surprised to see evolve is none other than the Sorting Hat. 'There is more to the Sorting Hat than what you have read about in the first three books,' Rowling says. 'Readers will find out what the Sorting Hat becomes as they get into future books.'
I thought there was another recent comment about the sorting hat, but I cannot seem to find it right now.
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T Vrana - Oct 10, 2005 9:13 am (#81 of 208)
Edited Oct 10, 2005 10:17 am
Picky point, Dorothy was trying to save Scarecrow, who was on fire, when she tossed the water and melted the Wicked Witch of the West.
Could be how Harry kills LV, while trying to save someone.
I agree. I don't think Harry will directly and intentionally kill LV, and I don't think DD directly killed Grindewald.
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Ana Cis - Oct 10, 2005 9:48 am (#82 of 208)
Edited by Oct 10, 2005 10:49 am
Rose - Based on what I read in the HP Lexicon, the sorting hat was bewitched by all the founders with brains and some personality. Therefore, it has some characteristics from each founder so it's about the only thing that has maintained balance and harmony within itself. Additionally, it has seen the thoughts of every student that has gone through the school. That's a lot of information it has acquired through the ages. Being the Headmaster's office, it has also gotten to hear all the going-ons in the WW throughout the years. It could be that it has developed awareness; therefore, it may the have the ability to deduce what will happen in the future; or further still...maybe even have a soul?
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Paulus Maximus - Oct 10, 2005 3:14 pm (#83 of 208)
But is it ever self- defense to AK someone? If you can hit someone with an AK, you can hit them with some other hex to stop them.
No, but AK isn't the only spell that can kill. (Maybe it's the best spell, but not the only one.) Dumbledore could have thrown a different spell at Grindelwald to kill him.
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Mattew Bates - Oct 10, 2005 3:15 pm (#84 of 208)
Round Pink Spider, in post #60, you brought to light that Harry enters an "underworld" in each of the books, but then you had trouble nailing down this figurative death in books five and six. I am very intrigued by this idea, but I don't see the need to limit these journeys to how close Harry comes to actual death. Since death is "the undiscovered country," a symbolic death is any trip to threatening lands, unknown and unguided. Therefore, if you broadened your definition of figurative death into a journey based, less personal idea, you may find them much more easily. It only reinforces the symbolism that four of these six trips are almost totally underground:
SS/PS: the seven trials under Hogwarts for the Stone (entrance guarded by a Cerberus-like three-headed dog, no less) CoS: the trip into the Chamber (entrance guarded by a ghost) PoA: the trip into the past GoF: the trip to the graveyard (an overt symbol of death if ever there was one) OotP: the trip to the Department of Mysteries (wherein all things undiscovered are studied, and a portal to death resides) HBP: the trip into the cave filled with inferi, from which Dumbledore does not fully return
I'm sure there are other references to literary and/or mythological "underworlds" in the above passages, as well. To bring this back around to the original topic, there are references to some of the mythologies that you said (back in your original post) harmony was so important to. Are there similar references to harmony in classic works of literature, as well?
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T Vrana - Oct 10, 2005 3:42 pm (#85 of 208)
Paulus Maximus- I'm sure you are right about other spells that can kill, Sectumsempra for instance. I still suspect DD would not intend to kill. As the epitome of goodness, I suspect he would try to subdue and detain. Could be wrong...
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Paulus Maximus - Oct 10, 2005 3:53 pm (#86 of 208)
Or perhaps Grindelwald simply could not be subdued and detained, forcing DD to kill him...
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T Vrana - Oct 10, 2005 3:59 pm (#87 of 208)
Could be. I'm not saying DD didn't kill him, but that he did not intend to kill him. That is, I don't think DD would use an unforgivable or a dark curse (like sectumsempra), but as a result of what had to be a hard fought battle, Grindewald died.
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Ana Cis - Oct 10, 2005 4:38 pm (#88 of 208)
Edited by Oct 10, 2005 5:39 pm
There may be other spells for killing a person, but so far they haven't been mentioned. Here we are in the 6th of a 7 book series. If there is such a spell, I believe that JKR would have mentioned it by now. With the emphasis of Love being the power that Voldemort knows not, the use of a killing spell seems counterintuitive.
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T Vrana - Oct 10, 2005 5:27 pm (#89 of 208)
Edited Oct 10, 2005 6:39 pm
Not necessarily. The curse the DE hit Hermione with, nonverbally, did a great deal of damage to Hermione, and it was indicated it would have been much worse if he had been able to say the curse. I'm quite sure there are many curses intended to kill, but equally certain they would all be considered Dark Magic.
But I agree, Harry will not use a killing spell to take out LV.
Sorry, this has nothing to do with Harry's blood or harmony....
But how about this, nothing to do with Harry's blood, but harmony. In SS the fragmented school sings the school song, all to differnt tunes. Funny, at the time. But we haven't heard the school song since, and JK said this due to the dark times and if we hear DD lead it again we'll know he's in top form.
I'm in the “DD is not dead” camp. Will we hear the school song at the end of book 7, and will it be in unison?
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RoseMorninStar - Oct 10, 2005 6:07 pm (#90 of 208)
Edited Oct 10, 2005 7:08 pm
I know this is not following the current topic of discussion but I found this bit of interview and thought that some in here might find it interesting.
Ani Morison for Sunday Star Times New Zealand - My question is why does Harry keep going back to the Dursleys, when he is closer to the Weasleys than he is to them?
JK Rowling: That has been explained in the books to an extent, it has been explained in the books but possibly you haven't yet finished this book when it is made very clear. Harry receives magical protection from his mother's sacrifice as long as he remains close to her blood. In other words, Aunt Petunia. That protection won't continue to hold once he is a man, once he turns 17 - he is no longer given that protective aura by his mother, so Dumbledore wants him to go back one more time to ensure the protection continues to his 17th birthday and after that he really is on his own.
Ana Cis, yes.. I agree with what you posted about the sorting hat.. but I wonder if there is more? I mean, I wonder if something unexpected will show up with the hat in book #7? I just cannot wait!!!
I don't think Dumbledore killed Grindelwald directly. I do think he vanquished or 'defeated' him and he died. JKR has been a bit cagey about it so how Grindelwald died might have bearing on how book 7 plays out with Harry & Voldemort.
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 11, 2005 10:41 am (#91 of 208)
iHarry is magic vs. Harry can use magic. This statement startled me; I didn't catch it in previous readings. Have any of you noted previously. Was this a mis-statement, or did she mean to say that his whole essence is magic or magical? ...your thoughts? -- Ana Cis
My thought is that she just misspoke. I have heard her talk about this moment in other interviews, and she has always spoken of this moment in terms of "this boy is a wizard and he doesn't know it." I don't think she really meant anything more by it.
Paulus Maximus- I'm sure you are right about other spells that can kill, Sectumsempra for instance. I still suspect DD would not intend to kill. As the epitome of goodness, I suspect he would try to subdue and detain. Could be wrong... -- T Vrana
I have this sneaking suspicion that we're going to discover that, when Dumbledore was young (probably before Grindelwald's time), Dumbledore did, in fact, use the Dark Arts, and may even have killed someone, or been responsible for someone's death. I would guess that it was in the wake of this, perhaps when he was in the pangs of remorse, that he ended up picking up Fawkes, the incarnate image of rising from the ashes of the past. I would guess that that's the reason that he was willing to give Snape a second chance: because someone else gave him a second chance.
Why am I bringing this up? DD may have been the epitome of goodness when Harry knew him, and maybe even back in 1945, but I think he may not always have been that way. And I'm guessing that it's a mistake to assume that he was always a good person. We really know nothing about him before he started teaching.
To bring this back around to the original topic, there are references to some of the mythologies that you said (back in your original post) harmony was so important to. Are there similar references to harmony in classic works of literature, as well? -- Matthew Bates
A couple that leap immediately to mind are The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion. Tolkien was a scholar of ancient languages, and he was very familiar with the concept of harmonia in its ancient Persian form, arta. Arta was the Persian term for the harmonious working of the universe. In The Silmarillion, Tolkien had the elves use the term "Arda" for the world. It was even created out of music!
Actually, I think that Tolkien is a very good example for another reason. You see, according to that ancient concept of arta, the ruler, the king, is the linchpin upon which the wellbeing of the people rested. In The Silmarillion, it was the presumption of the Numenorean king that caused the destruction of Numenor. And in The Lord of the Rings, the restoration of the Righteous King, Aragorn, signaled the return of prosperity to Middle-Earth.
Similarly, in the stories of the Fisher King and the Holy Grail, it was a moral failure of the King that had brought ruin upon the land, and only when Percival set it right could the land recover. The stories of Percival and the Holy Grail are also very important to Harry Potter: there are a lot of parallels between the two. And you may recall that Percival is one of Dumbledore's baptismal names. He even has a wound "above his knee", just like the Fisher King.
Anyway, these are other reasons why I think the image of Harry as a "king" are terribly important.
In SS the fragmented school sings the school song, all to different tunes. Funny, at the time. But we haven't heard the school song since, and JK said this due to the dark times and if we hear DD lead it again we'll know he's in top form. -- T Vrana
Yes, the school sang the song in discord. That shows that the school is divided.
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Steve Newton - Oct 11, 2005 12:20 pm (#92 of 208)
RPS, in SS McGonagall says that Dumbledore was too noble to use the Dark Arts. (Not her exact words, I don't have the book with me.) After several readings it occurred to me that this suggested that Dumbledore did, indeed, know the Dark Arts and may have, perhaps, used them.
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haymoni - Oct 11, 2005 12:21 pm (#93 of 208)
I'm guessing you need to know some Dark Arts to blast open a Horcrux.
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RoseMorninStar - Oct 11, 2005 12:31 pm (#94 of 208)
I am not so sure about Dumbledore and the Dark Arts. Somewhere in HBP Dumbledore asks/tells Harry he had Snape help with something and Harry questions, 'Why Snape? Why not Madam Pomfrey?' and Dumbledore answers (something like) 'Because Snape knows so much more about the Dark Arts.' I think that is one of the special relationships that Dumbledore has with Snape. I think he has learned from him and trusts him for his knowledge. Especially his knowledge in the Dark Arts. We do not know how, but either Lupin or Sirius said that Snape came to Hogwarts in his first year knowing more about the Dark Arts than some 7th year students. So...I don't think it is Dumbledore that knows about Dark Arts...it is Snape.
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 11, 2005 2:42 pm (#95 of 208)
All that means is that Snape knows more about the Dark Arts than Madame Pomphrey, and maybe more than Dumbledore. That doesn't mean that Dumbledore doesn't have any knowledge of the Dark Arts. In fact, it would be incredibly stupid of Dumbledore not to know a great deal about the Dark Arts. He'd be guilty of the same mistake Voldemort made, ignoring a branch of magic, leaving his enemy knowing things he doesn't. He obviously thought that Voldemort was foolish to do that, so presumably Dumbledore isn't that foolish.
But I still suspect that Dumbledore did something he regrets when he was young. He speaks as if he had known great spiritual suffering -- he understood how Harry was feeling when Sirius died because of him. Even if DD never used the Dark Arts, I wouldn't be surprised if someone died because he was irresponsible at some point. If Snape regretted Lily's death, that would again give Dumbledore and Snape something in common, and again that would explain why DD trusted Snape when others would not have.
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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 11, 2005 2:51 pm (#96 of 208)
I am trying to start a thread on this exact topic. I believe DD's suffering came from his child. I believe he/she 'fell' to the dark arts and betrayed DD somehow. And that's why we've got all this talk about loyalty from Harry to DD/Gryffindor.
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Ana Cis - Oct 11, 2005 7:22 pm (#97 of 208)
Edited by Oct 11, 2005 8:23 pm
In Book 5 he made an interesting statement that makes me believe that he seems to totally understand Harry's suffering and anger. "You care so much you feel as though you will bleed to death with pain of it." It's his way of saying I know, I've been there. Also, "For I now see that what I have done, and not done, with regard to you, bears all the hallmarks of the failings of age. Youth cannot know how age thinks and feels. But old men are guilty if they forget what it was to be young... and I seem to have forgotten lately..." This made realize the reason he's always been so understanding of the pranks students pull off and the curiosity that gets them into trouble. He seems to appreciate the twins' for their creativity than upset about the ways the try to go around the rules.
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T Vrana - Oct 11, 2005 7:43 pm (#98 of 208)
RPS- While I agree DD may have done things he regrets, at 150, and being a risk taker, who admits to huge mistakes, I can't match up the epitome of goodness with once using Dark Arts to kill someone. If he knows Dark Arts, and I think he does, I assume it is because he studied them, not used them. He is the most knowledgeable wizard ever/of his time. Mischievous, definitely. Irresponsible, hmmmm, not quite the word I would use. A touch arrogant, yes, but not because he looks down on others, because he knows he is very intelligent and very powerful. He is willing to take chances, and give others chances, I'm sure this has hurt him and others. I think he has known pain like Harry's. I have a difficult time comparing him to Snape, except, as you say, they may both know regret.
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 14, 2005 12:56 pm (#99 of 208)
Edited Oct 14, 2005 2:02 pm
Getting back to harmony, I would like to revisit a topic from way back on post #23 of this thread. I'm going to repost most of this for the purpose of discussion.
The Latin word "seco", from which "sectum" comes, does in fact mean wound or cut, BUT (!!!) it also means DIVIDE. And many of you may recognise the word "sempra" from the Marine Corps motto, "Semper Fidelis", as meaning "always". So that means that "sectumsempa" means (approximately) "divide[d] always."
As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, the Element Water is supposed to join unlike things. But Slytherin house has lost this fundamental purpose. Instead of joining others together, they create division and discord. If you look at the scene, you'll notice (as Barb pointed out this morning) that, right before Harry uses Sectumsempra, he hits the cistern right behind Myrtle, so there's water all over the place.
Now all that symbolism is pretty neat all by itself, but this is where it becomes truly amazing. When Snape is healing Malfoy, he's using "an incantation that sounded almost like a song."
He's using music -- harmony, as it were -- to heal the "division."
What I realized today is that Snape, the young, bitter Slytherin, may have invented this incantation, which is a perfect expression of the Death Eaters' attitude. But it was also Snape who used harmony to heal the division. I've got to believe that this is a BIG HINT!
I'm feeling some foreshadowing here!
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RoseMorninStar - Oct 14, 2005 2:25 pm (#100 of 208)
Round Pink Spider... not only may you be onto something..but JKR made this comment on her website: Dumbledore called for the school song when he was feeling particularly buoyant, but times are becoming ever darker in the wizarding world. Should Dumbledore ever suggest a rousing encore, you may assume that he is on top form once more.
A song of Harmony perhaps? I wonder what the sorting hat will come up with next year... and if 'Dumbledore' will ever call for an encore?!!
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HungarianHorntail11 - Oct 14, 2005 3:11 pm (#101 of 208)
RPS, I posted the following on another thread because I couldn't find a tie-in (no pun intended) with this topic, but since you are talking about harmony, I thought maybe binding might also fit? I edited it to fit the harmony topic.
I was wondering why the Unbreakable Vow bound them by fire rather than water when fire is supposed to represent Gryffindor (i.e., DD) and water, Slytherin? Could this be a hint regarding a binding or healing with GG?
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 14, 2005 4:58 pm (#102 of 208)
RoseMorninStar, I have often thought about the significance of the school song. Maybe they'll all sing it together someday. By the way, I noticed a while ago (although I hadn't mentioned it yet) that the Four Founders were two men and two women, like a mixed quartet (soprano, alto, tenor, bass). Just an interesting little detail...
I was wondering why the Unbreakable Vow bound them by fire rather than water when fire is supposed to represent Gryffindor (i.e., DD) and water, Slytherin? Could this be a hint regarding a binding or healing with GG? -- HH11
Actually, HH, I think that only has to do with the symbolic language. In JKR's symbolic language, fire appears to represent Truth. So the Unbreakable Vow binds individuals with fire because it enforces Truth -- if you aren't true to your vow, you die.
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Ana Cis - Oct 14, 2005 7:51 pm (#103 of 208)
Edited by Oct 14, 2005 8:51 pm
Round Pink Spider, "Harry's Blood and Harmony" #99, 14 Oct 2005 1:56 pm
RPS,
While Harry's waiting for Snape to get back, we read about Harry looking down at the floor and seeing Draco's blood mixing with the water, "floating like crimson flowers across its surface." Any foreshadowing of harmony or maybe truth in this passage? Any other thoughts about the symbolism behind this passage?
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 15, 2005 9:54 am (#104 of 208)
Well, Ana, I never did get around to figuring out the symbolic significance of water itself before HBP came out. But "crimson flowers" would represent revelation of the truth. A lot of truth was revealed at that moment: the truth that Harry was putting his trust in notes written by someone dangerous, the truth that Draco was suffering from his situation, and most importantly, the truth that Harry had really hurt someone unjustly. I should think this realization will stick with Harry permanently.
Symbolism? Ummm... Maybe because the "crimson flowers" are floating in water, Harry's learning a truth about the Slytherins. It's actually noticeably true that the Slytherins are not strong people. They're ambitious, but they aren't brave. I would guess that this is the place from which Harry will begin his journey toward reuniting the Slytherins with the rest of Wizarding Society. He's got just a touch of sympathy for them now. Then he saw Draco at the top of the tower, and he knew that Draco wasn't going to kill Dumbledore. That should help, too.
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Ana Cis - Oct 15, 2005 10:34 am (#105 of 208)
For some reason, this scene keeps reminding me of the one in CS where the Girl's bathroom was flooded and (if I remember correctly) Harry found Riddle's diary. I'll compare both scenarios, and look for similarities that can provide some clues the water imagery.
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RoseMorninStar - Oct 15, 2005 9:18 pm (#106 of 208)
RPS... you said; '...and most importantly, the truth that Harry had really hurt someone unjustly. I should think this realization will stick with Harry permanently. '
Harry may have used a curse he shouldn't have...but Draco was ready to use an Unforgiveable curse on Harry...so I don't think we can really say that he had hurt someone unjustly. I do however, think that the realization of what he did will stick with him a long time. A full body bind curse would have worked just as well.(or better)
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 16, 2005 11:21 am (#107 of 208)
When I said that he had hurt someone unjustly, what I really meant was that he realized afterwards that he had hurt Draco very badly without a good reason for hurting him badly. He had every right to defend himself, to block the curse, to use a full body bind or a hex. He had already blocked similar curses the year before, cast by far more expert hands, so he knew how to do it.
The realization was strictly retrospective. Harry realized after he used the curse that it was excessive. Since he didn't know what it did, he should have been more careful with it. He used it on Draco because the book said it was for use on enemies, so he tested it out on Draco because he considered Draco an enemy.
Unjustly was probably the wrong word. Perhaps I should have said "more than was appropriate under the circumstances."
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wynnleaf - Oct 16, 2005 2:26 pm (#108 of 208)
Edited Oct 16, 2005 3:27 pm
Another part of Harry's willingness to use sectumsempra is that he was planning on using it in a quite arbitrary manner just to find out what it did. Earlier in the Sectumsempra chapter, Harry is considering trying it on, I think McLaggen next time his back is turned.
So while his use of the curse on Draco happened to occur at a moment when Draco was trying to use Crucio on him, Harry would realize that it was only circumstantial that he ended up using the curse at an actual moment of danger. In fact, he had planned to use it on a completely innocent unsuspecting student.
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HungarianHorntail11 - Oct 16, 2005 6:50 pm (#109 of 208)
He seemed to be becoming a bit reckless with this "power" and the encounter with Draco set him straight. I thought it would be very interesting to see o whom Harry ended up using Sectumsempra, to see who he defined as his enemy. Later though, he realizes Draco wasn't able to kill DD, so what does it mean in the end? He needs to redefine his judgments?
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Ana Cis - Oct 31, 2005 6:05 pm (#110 of 208)
Edited by Oct 31, 2005 6:10 pm
RPS - The water may represent transforming knowledge and dissolution of Harry's fixed concepts and perceptions about himself and others.
Harry learned two very significant points that went against his preconceptions:
# 1) Draco is no longer an object to be hated, but a human being with fears and hurts like Harry. I believe there was small seed planted in Harry that Draco, although a bully, is not as evil as he perceives him to be.
# 2) The Potion textbook he thought as friend is not as friendly as he perceived--he may begin to learn discernment.
It's interesting to see the cyclical theme to this event. This is the second time that Harry has become attached to a book, disregarding the warnings of his friends. Maybe the third lesson will take, if need be.
The reason I consider that reference of water as a clue/indication of transforming knowledge is that Jo has done this in other sections of the series. When Harry learned he was a wizard from Hagrid, he was in an island surrounded by water, and there was a huge storm that night. This was a huge change in perception about himself.
However, I need to do more research to confirm this concept.
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 1, 2005 10:08 am (#111 of 208)
The knowledge that Harry gained after swimming into the cave was also a good example of transforming knowledge. So your suggestion sounds reasonable to me.
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Oliver Wood - Nov 1, 2005 1:19 pm (#112 of 208)
Maybe this has been mentioned but Harry also solved his tri-wizard clue in the bath surrounded by water. Another example of transforming knowledge.
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Round Pink Spider - Nov 1, 2005 4:59 pm (#113 of 208)
Excellent observation! Thanks!
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T Vrana - Nov 1, 2005 6:10 pm (#114 of 208)
Ana Cis-
HBP's book, like HBP, is not all bad, IMO. Without the book Ron would likely have died and Harry would not have won the Felix, therefore would not have retrieved the Slughorn memory. The potions were good, but getting caught up in hate (Secumsempra- for enemies), was not so good.
I think Harry will need to realize Snape is a mix as well, full of useful information that may help him defeat LV, but don't get caught up in the hate.
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Ana Cis - Nov 3, 2005 7:11 pm (#115 of 208)
Edited by Nov 3, 2005 7:14 pm
T-Vrana – I agree with you about the HBP text, but it's also not "all good". That's what I meant when I said that the textbook is not as friendly as Harry believed. My point is not about the book, but about Harry's ability to discern things and situations. In CS, Harry felt that the diary was like a friend. He has similar feelings about this book. He never went to any of the teachers (Flitwick, McGonagall, Slughorn) and asked about the spells and their impacts. He only saw the benefits and never asked if there are any consequences. This was a traumatic and transformational lesson for him, a part of growing up.
Veering a little off this point, and back to the imagery of water, it also seems that Jo's making the reader have a change in their preconception also. Oliver Wood's reference (thanks for adding that one; I had forgotten about it )about solving the clue in the prefects' bathroom, we notice there's painting of a mermaid. It lets us know that there's another type of group of non-humans that exist in the stories; in PS/SS we meet a half-giant, and we learn that Harry is not only a wizard but a more powerful wizard than he/we realize; in HBP Sectumsempra, we also see another side of the book, as well as a more human side of Draco; in OotP, by the MOM "Fountain of Magical Brethren," we, as well as Dumbledore, learn that Voldemort is unable to possess Harry because of his capacity to love. Therefore, it's not just the characters' preconceptions and judgments that are being addressed, but the readers' also.
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wynnleaf - Nov 4, 2005 12:27 pm (#116 of 208)
Ana Cis,
I noticed your comment:
he textbook is not as friendly as Harry believed. My point is not about the book, but about Harry's ability to discern things and situations. In CS, Harry felt that the diary was like a friend.
You might be interested in my recent post #91 today on “The Significance of the HBP Title” thread. By the way, regardless how Harry thinks of the potions notes, they are not "personal" or "friendly" in the sense that the writer wrote only for himself. This was unlike the writer of the diary who specifically intended to appear helpful and friendly in order to manipulate the reader for evil purposes.
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Ana Cis - Nov 4, 2005 4:19 pm (#117 of 208)
Edited by Nov 4, 2005 4:21 pm
wynnleaf – I'll gladly read your post.
However, I disagree with your point in this post; the way Harry feels or thinks about the potions book is significant. My point is about discernment, and whether Harry has learned from his prior experiences and applies what his has learned, regardless if the books are evil or manipulative. When Harry got the book, he did not know whether the book was dangerous or not. It turns out that it did have some notes about Dark Magic. One of the core themes of the series has to do Harry's maturing process. When it came to Potions text, he took it for granted that all the notes written in the book were benign or beneficial. The incident with the sectumsempra spell taught him that he was naïve. Harry tends to act based mostly on his emotions, and not enough on his reasoning. He must learn to find a balance/harmony between the two. One of the main objectives with Dumbledore's lessons was to learn to stop, think, and analyze—not just react. Whether the Potions text author wrote the notes for himself is not as important as whether the application of those notes result in a positive or negative impact—the principle of cause and effect.
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wynnleaf - Nov 4, 2005 4:53 pm (#118 of 208)
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I disagree with this comment -- When it came to Potions text, he took it for granted that all the notes written in the book were benign or beneficial.
In part, I think Harry's weakness here was discernment. But I also think it was a weakness in which he was willing to use spells which he already knew were not necessarily benign or beneficial. Harry had already experimented with various notes for spells that, while not deadly, were nevertheless somewhat mean and harmful. He was quite willing to try those spells directly on people he disliked, without any prior experimentation. When he saw the sectumsemptra spell, it said specifically that it was "for enemies." Interestingly, Harry decided to try that spell out on a guy who's primary "crime" toward Harry was to be a pain at Quidditch and like the same girl, yet Harry was perfectly willing to try out what he already knew must at the very least be another nasty, unpleasant spell as soon as McClaggen's back was turned.
I don't consider this to be solely a weakness of discernment. I think the use of the sectumsempra spell was both lack of wisdom in using a spell which he simply assumed would be no worse than what he'd already used, but also a willingness to use hurtful spells on others with very little provocation. It was not such a leap later to see Harry, when truly furious, quite willing to use the Crucio, and to use with full knowledge the sectumsempra.
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Ana Cis - Nov 4, 2005 8:46 pm (#119 of 208)
Edited by Nov 4, 2005 8:46 pm
I agree and stand corrected; I would also that Harry still has a problem controlling his emotions--part of the lack of balance I referred to earlier.
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Ana Cis - Nov 5, 2005 8:51 pm (#120 of 208)
Edited by Nov 5, 2005 8:58 pm
WARNING...LONG POST.
I wanted to share this interesting section in HBP that deals with Harmony. I had shared part of it with RPS. Since this passage deals w/harmony, I decided to post it in this thread versus the chapter thread.
In chapter HBP18, "Birthday Surprises", Harry, Ron, and Hermione were in Potions class and had to create an antidote. Slughorn states the following, “that assuming we have achieved correct identification of the potion’s ingredients...our primary aim [my emphasis] is not the relatively simple one of selecting antidotes to those ingredients in and of themselves, but to find that added component [antidote] that will, by an almost alchemical process, transform these disparate elements—“
It is interesting that the definition for an antidote is the same definition given for harmony as described by JOHN CURTIS FRANKLIN, PHD in Classics.
Harmony in Greek and Indo-Iranian Cosmology [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Harmony, in the non-musical sense ... describes an actual physical (and some would say metaphysical) phenomenon [my emphasis]. As formulated by the ancient Greeks, Harmony is the interaction of two or more parts to create a whole which transcends the properties of its elements. ....Other familiar expressions include the Chinese circle of Yin and Yang, and the English saying 'the whole is greater than the sum of its parts'. The concept is of great relevance today with the explosion of interest in the phenomena of complexity....It is a 'conflict' which, in neutralizing itself, gives rise to a productive reconciliation, a supervenient [ensuing] or emergent property.
Harry, to Hermione's disgust, came up with the bezoar as the antidote. Later in the chapter, we see Harry use the bezoar to save Ron's life.
A point of reference: I thought this was a word that was made up by JKR. However, a bezoar is an actual item that was believed to be an antidote for poisons.
bezoar goat - Bezoar \Be"zoar\, n. [F. b['e]zoard, fr. Ar. b[=a]zahr, b[=a]dizahr, fr. Per. p[=a]d-zahr bezoar; p[=a]d protecting + zahr poison; cf. Pg. & Sp. bezoar.] A calculous concretion found in the intestines of certain ruminant animals (as the wild goat, the gazelle, and the Peruvian llama) formerly regarded as an unfailing antidote for poison, and a certain remedy for eruptive, pestilential, or putrid diseases. Hence: Any antidote or panacea.
Ref: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
This episode made me realize that the chapter represented an analogy/foreshadowing between the bezoar and Harry. The bezoar represents the antidote that provides the harmony in the conflict between the poison and Ron's body (his physical health). Harry (or some part of him) will be the antidote that will provide the harmony in the conflict between Voldemort and his minions and the Wizarding World. However, how he will accomplish it is still a mystery whose answer is known by JKR, and maybe her editor.
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Magic Words - May 16, 2006 6:41 pm (#121 of 208)
Very tricky, hiding threads in group folders. Do you have any idea how long it took me to read 120 posts just now? And I have a response to #15 or so....
I posted this on the Draco Malfoy thread. Turns out "ouroboros" was the word I was looking for all along:
“I've often seen people comparing the trio to the Marauders and wondering who will be the equivalent of Peter Pettigrew. It's my belief that Draco Malfoy will play that role, but in reverse. Peter deserted his three best friends. In doing so, he reenacted in microcosm the split between Slytherin and the other three founders of Hogwarts. Peter has some definite Slytherin qualities - out only for himself, using any means, etc. I relate James, Sirius, and Lupin to Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, and Ravenclaw, respectively, and it was when they lost their Slytherin representative that things went seriously wrong for them (James dead, Sirius imprisoned). Harry, Ron, and Hermione pick up where the Marauders left off, with a Gryffindor, a Hufflepuff, and a Ravenclaw representative, but no Slytherin. I think that by accepting Malfoy (not necessarily as a great friend, but at least somewhat accepting him), they will symbolically come full circle, returning to a complete group of four, and this will mirror the return of Slytherin to its place in a unified Hogwarts.”
In general, the observations here are amazing. Intuitively I always thought water should unite more than divide, and I couldn't understand how Slytherin corresponded with water except by process of elimination, but if they've strayed from their original purpose, that works perfectly.
One thing I'm wondering: if blood corresponds to air, do flesh and bone have elements associated with them? If so, it'd be interesting to see which one Voldemort's missing.
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frogface - May 17, 2006 2:54 am (#122 of 208)
Out of the Marauders who represents which house though? I would have put Lupin as a Hufflepuff, because he is loyal, hardworking and accepting of students despite their creed or ability. But what about James and Sirius. Both very brave and both very clever...hmm it’s a tricky one. My first instinct is to put James as a Gryffindor, but we know more about Sirius, and from what we know, he definitely seems like more of a Gryffinor than a Ravenclaw - his bravery and emotion seem to override his keen mind quite often in OotP.
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Magic Words - May 17, 2006 7:03 am (#123 of 208)
I would say Lupin is Ravenclaw because he's the one interested in reading and learning. He's the Hermione equivalent of the group, and we know Hermione was almost a Ravenclaw. Sirius and James are very close, I agree, but I put Sirius as a Hufflepuff because he seems more connected with loyalty than James does (Animagus form is a dog, for instance), and James in Gryffindor because, apart from being brave, he's Harry's father and Harry is definitely Gryffindor.
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haymoni - May 17, 2006 7:09 am (#124 of 208)
He would also be Hufflepuff because he doesn't seem to support the "Wizards Only" way of thinking.
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journeymom - May 17, 2006 9:51 am (#125 of 208)
Edited May 17, 2006 10:54 am
Hi! This is a fascinating thread. I'm glad it was dug up. I can't possibly add intelligently to the alchemy debate. But I noticed this quite a while ago, from RPS,
This is an alchemical detail, Ana Cis, one that's not in the stuff I sent you earlier today. When JKR answered the question about Neville on her website, she indicated that the Chosen One, the one whom Voldemort marked by his attack, is a king: So where does this leave Neville, the boy who was so nearly King?" I'm not going to debate in which sense Harry is a "king", but there's almost certainly a connection with alchemy. And in alchemy, the Red King has to die and be reborn in some way."
Remember the chants of "Weasley is our King!" Well, from the Arthurian legend connection, the red-haired Weasleys would be the Red King. Ginny almost dies in CoS. Arthur is attacked and almost dies in OotP. Bill is mangled and almost dies in HBP. (Ron is poisoned, but I don't know that he almost died. And it wasn't related to the battle with LV.) Anyway, I suppose you could say with Harry getting together with Ginny, he's an honorary Weasley. Maybe this makes him the Red King. He almost died, himself, in PS/SS.
On the subject of unification, I remember Jo, when asked, answered that someone will NOT be Minister for Magic, but I can't remember who. Was it Harry or Arthur? Or am I imagining things? Or maybe I'm thinking too big. Maybe she means Harry or Arthur to be Headmaster. Or Ron for that matter. Or Ginny!
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Steve Newton - May 17, 2006 10:25 am (#126 of 208)
My sometimes faulty memory says that JKR said the Arthur would not be the next Minister for Magic. The key word being next.
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haymoni - May 17, 2006 12:13 pm (#127 of 208)
Somebody get the quote - I don't recall "next" being there - but I've been wrong before.
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Catherine - May 17, 2006 12:16 pm (#128 of 208)
On her site, Jo answered in the FAQ section "Will Arthur Weasley be the new Minister..."
She said, "Alas, no."
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haymoni - May 17, 2006 12:51 pm (#129 of 208)
And we knew there would be a new minister in Book 6 because of her earlier chat.
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Steve Newton - May 17, 2006 12:52 pm (#130 of 208)
Which means that he could become the Minister after Scrimgeour.
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Round Pink Spider - May 17, 2006 3:33 pm (#131 of 208)
Edited May 17, 2006 4:39 pm
Hi! It's only by coincidence that I noticed discussion resuming here!
I posted this on the Draco Malfoy thread. Turns out "ouroboros" was the word I was looking for all along:
I've often seen people comparing the trio to the Marauders and wondering who will be the equivalent of Peter Pettigrew. It's my belief that Draco Malfoy will play that role, but in reverse...I relate James, Sirius, and Lupin to Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, and Ravenclaw, respectively, and it was when they lost their Slytherin representative that things went seriously wrong for them...Harry, Ron, and Hermione pick up where the Marauders left off...they will symbolically come full circle, returning to a complete group of four, and this will mirror the return of Slytherin to its place in a unified Hogwarts.
I agree that we'll see a microcosm of reunion at Hogwarts, certainly, although I won't speculate as to who will be involved. But "ouroboros" might not be the word you're looking for -- or maybe it is.
The Ouroboros is a symbol of the end returning to the beginning, and death and destruction resulting in new life. The Elements/Houses being rejoined is a little closer to the concept of the Philosopher's Stone in general. The Philosopher's Stone was supposed to produce perfect balance between the Elements.
One thing I'm wondering: if blood corresponds to air, do flesh and bone have elements associated with them? If so, it'd be interesting to see which one Voldemort's missing.
Well, not really. The old belief was that there were 4 humours in the body: blood (Air), yellow bile (Fire), phlegm (Water), and black bile (Earth). Supposedly, to be in perfect health, these humours had to be in perfect balance.
To go a little further, the body itself was associated with Earth and Water (the primal mud); the will was associated with Fire; and the spirit or soul with Air. You can see these reflected in the way JKR has depicted the Dementors. When they appear, the light disappears, coinciding with an inability to move or exert one's own will (Fire/light), and they "suck on the air", trying to draw out the soul.
I hope this answers your question, Magic Words.
Remember the chants of "Weasley is our King!" Well, from the Arthurian legend connection, the red haired Weasleys would be the Red King. Ginny almost dies in CoS. Arthur is attacked and almost dies in OotP. Bill is mangled and almost dies in HBP. (Ron is poisoned, but I don't know that he almost died. And it wasn't related to the battle with LV.) Anyway, I suppose you could say with Harry getting together with Ginny, he's an honorary Weasley. Maybe this makes him the Red King. He almost died, himself, in PS/SS.
Let me help a little with the Red King/Arthur issue. I've learned a lot about JKR's image of kingship since I wrote this, so forgive me if I digress. I'm glossing over these very fast here, but I'll try to be coherent at least!
JKR has linked together a lot of different images in her "kingship," and I don't know if I've chased them all down yet. But here are the ones I've found:
1. King = Red King: The Red King symbol represents Sulphur, and it's only meaningful with a "White Queen", representing Mercury. The Red King and the White Queen "marry" and produce the infant "Philosopher's Stone." So far, I've seen these Red King/White Queen pairs: Ron/Hermione, Bill/Fleur, James/Lily, Charlus/Dorea (James' parents), Harry/Ginny (a special case), possibly Remus/Tonks (but they don't yet fulfill all the images), and Snape/Narcissa (look for this to happen in book 7).
2. King = Philosopher's Stone: This has to do with the uniting of the Four Elements. The division in the school represents the division in Wizarding Society as a whole. The "king" is the person who can reunite Wizarding Society as the Philosopher's Stone harmonizes the 4 Elements.
3. King = Keeper of the Grail: This one I found a couple of years ago. The books have very close ties to the story of Percival and the Fisher King, the Wounded King who was the Keeper of the Grail. Dumbledore is an image of the Fisher King, whose injury reflects the devastation of his land. Dumbledore's injury to his hand (his right hand, the hand of his power) coincides with the loss of peace and the union of opposites in the Order of the Phoenix. When Dumbledore died, Fawkes, who was the symbol of union and harmony, went away.
4. King = Bearer of the Sword: Despite Arthur Weasley being the one with the name "Arthur," Harry is the one with most of the connections to King Arthur, especially his pulling the sword from the Sorting Hat. But the "bearer of the sword" image actually comes from Norse mythology.
Odin thrust a sword into a great tree in the king's hall, and the only one who could pull it out was Sigmund, the King's son. Eventually, the sword was broken, and Sigmund (who was dying) left the broken sword for his unborn son, Sigurd. Eventually, Sigurd had this sword reforged. Both Lord of the Rings and the legend of King Arthur were based on this story.
Your observation that the Red Kings get hurt is very good, Journeymom. I only realized recently that the shedding of blood is part of the Red King imagery, so you're right on target there.
I'm sorry that this was such a very long response, but I hope you found it interesting.
On the subject of unification, I remember Jo, when asked, answered that someone will NOT be Minister for Magic, but I can't remember who. Was it Harry or Arthur? Or am I imagining things? Or maybe I'm thinking too big. Maybe she means Harry or Arthur to be Headmaster. Or Ron for that matter. Or Ginny!
JKR has made a number of comments on all these subject. She said that A) Arthur would not be the new Minister for Magic (Scrimgeour was; that comment was made before HBP was released); B) Harry would not become Minister for Magic (she said 17 was much too young to be going into politics); C) She didn't see Harry going into an academic career (not going to be a teacher or Headmaster).
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Magic Words - May 17, 2006 5:15 pm (#132 of 208)
Round Pink Spider, all I meant by the ouroboros was that they have to return to the original conditions of the school, where the four houses work in harmony (as the Founders did), symbolically represented by a group of four students where each embodies the qualities of a different House (as the Marauders used to).
Now I want to know more about the whole Red King idea. Why do Ron and Hermione fill the requirements, for instance, but not Remus and Tonks? And why Snape/Narcissa? And don't we know nothing about Charlus and Dorea? If a full explanation is too long and complicated to post, do you know of a website or something where I could find it?
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Round Pink Spider - May 17, 2006 7:04 pm (#133 of 208)
Edited May 17, 2006 8:11 pm
Now I want to know more about the whole Red King idea. Why do Ron and Hermione fill the requirements, for instance, but not Remus and Tonks? And why Snape/Narcissa? And don't we know nothing about Charlus and Dorea? If a full explanation is too long and complicated to post, do you know of a website or something where I could find it?
I don't know of any website. The alchemy thread could give you the info, but you'd have to sift (a lot!), since there's so much else on there. So I'll try to summarize.
Alchemists used symbols to communicate their ideas to other alchemists without giving away their information to the unworthy. One symbol was the Red King, who represented Sulphur, which you could call the "masculine" side of matter. They considered things that could burn or break down other things to be "active" or masculine. The matching symbol was the White Queen, representing Mercury, the "feminine" side of matter. Things that joined other things together, or melted, or could bend, were considered "passive" or feminine.
The Red King was associated with the Sun and the Element Fire (and sometimes Earth), and the White Queen was associated with the Moon and the moist Elements Air and Water.
Taking all this, you can see the symbols around the people I mentioned.
Ron (Red King): at least two references to a rotten egg (Sulphur) smell from his potions; middle name Bilius ("bilious" -- excess of yellow bile, the Fire humour)
Hermione (White Queen): Her initials, Hg, are the chemical symbol for Mercury. Her name is a reference to Hermes, the Greek name of the god Mercury. She has excelled in Potions from the beginning ("Water" magic). She was almost in Ravenclaw, the house associated with Air. Harry dreamed of the two of them wearing crowns.
Bill: His first name, like that of most of the Weasleys, represents British royalty (King William). Gryffindor represents Fire, so all the Weasleys are associated with Fire.
Fleur: She was already associated with Air, because the Beaubaton students sat with the Ravenclaws. But Harry helped associate her with Water by saving her sister in the Second Task. It was after this task (and before the Third) that she first saw Bill. Her nickname "Phlegm" refers to the humour associated with Water. At the end of HBP, Molly offered her a tiara.
James: Like the Weasleys, all the Potters have royal names (King James). And as a Gryffindor, James is associated with Fire.
Lily: Her name associates her with Water (waterlilies). We found out in HBP that she excelled at Potions, which are Water magic.
Charlus: All we know about James' parents are their names (we think), but that's enough. Charlus is probably a reference to King Charles, or possibly Charlemagne. "Char" is also a Fire reference.
Dorea: Means "of the sea."
Remus: Remus was in Gryffindor, but this is about all I know that qualifies him as a Red King. That, and he's not good at Tonks: I know of no Water connections for Tonks. However, she has close associations with Hecate, who was a moon goddess. So maybe that's enough for her.
Snape: As a Slytherin, he's naturally connected with Water. But he has tied himself with Fire in several ways. First, he's a divider: he teaches Occlumency and non-verbal spells, methods of non-communication. Fire is the Element that divides. Also, at the end of HBP, when he took back the nickname, the Half-Blood Prince ("prince" being a Red King reference), his face was "illuminated by the flaming cabin," Hagrid's hut.
Narcissa: Her Slytherin associations naturally connect her with the White Queen image. She was also associated with Water when she came seeking Severus' help at the beginning of HBP: "She was so pale that she seemed to shine in the darkness; the long blonde hair streaming down her back gave her the look of a drowned person." (HBP, p. 22) When the two knelt for the Unbreakable Vow, it was the image of a wedding ceremony. I'm not speculating that they will end up married -- obviously, Lucius would have to die first -- but the possibility is there.
Harry: Harry has so many associations with kingship that it would be a joke to list them. But just a couple -- Harry is a British nickname for Henry; the current Queen's younger grandson is named Henry, but everyone calls him Harry. And there have been lots of King Henrys. He's closely associated with King Arthur and with the Philosopher's Stone.
Ginny: The reason I said Harry and Ginny are a special case is because Ginny is associated with alcohol (Gin-ny), the "water" that burns. Her full name, Ginevra, is based on Guinevere, King Arthur's wife.
There! I hope that wasn't too long and drawn-out. That's about two years' worth of research in a nutshell.
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Magic Words - May 18, 2006 7:41 am (#134 of 208)
Thanks, RPS!
It sounds like both Harry and Ginny have both sides to them. Harry was almost in Slytherin, and he tries to unite the wizarding world against Voldemort, with the DA and such.
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Round Pink Spider - May 18, 2006 12:00 pm (#135 of 208)
Well, the information I gave you about Harry is simplistic, but it had to be, or it would take all day. He has references to all Four Elements; Water was the last to show up, and it showed up in HBP, with Harry starting to improve at Potions, and starting to have compassion for Draco. Since Water is associated with Love, his connections with Water have to strengthen even more in the next book.
I would expect we'll see more Water connections with Ginny, too. Her Fire connections with Harry were very obvious -- the times she looked at him with love (before their first kiss, when Harry said good-bye), she gave him a "hard, blazing look." So her connection with the burning side of alcohol is already clear. But aside from her friendship with Luna, I haven't seen any clear Moon/Mercury/Water connections yet.
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journeymom - May 18, 2006 1:59 pm (#136 of 208)
I know of no Water connections for Tonks.
Her first name, Nymphadora, could be associated with water nymphs.
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virginiaelizabeth - May 18, 2006 6:40 pm (#137 of 208)
That's very interesting RPS! I might have to start reading the alchemy thread!
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Round Pink Spider - May 19, 2006 3:35 am (#138 of 208)
Edited May 19, 2006 4:38 am
Her first name, Nymphadora, could be associated with water nymphs.
Oh, yeah, I'd thought of that, but I'd forgotten it. Of the nymphs, only the Neriads and Naiads are associated with water, but I guess it's a Water connection of sorts.
That's very interesting RPS! I might have to start reading the alchemy thread!
You might want to read some of the archived Alchemy thread first; otherwise you might feel like you've jumped in the ocean without a life-preserver.
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Vaughn - May 19, 2006 7:05 am (#139 of 208)
As for Tonks association with the White Queen...did you say that Alchemists viewed the feminine as things that melted or bend...were malleable? Tonks as a shape shifter has a very malleable quality which could tie her to the White Queen.
Vaughn.
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Round Pink Spider - May 19, 2006 1:37 pm (#140 of 208)
That's an interesting interpretation. You could be correct, Vaughn.
One of the people over on the Treasure Hunt thread made an excellent case connectingTonks with Hecate, who was a moon goddess with three different aspects, a maiden, a matron, and an old crone. We applied her ability to shift her appearance to that. However, that doesn't make your idea invalid by any means.
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Mediwitch - May 19, 2006 7:17 pm (#141 of 208)
And of course, Tonks was "mooning" over "Moony"! Moon 2
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Robert Dierken - May 19, 2006 8:16 pm (#142 of 208)
Harry Potter is actually named Harry, so it is not a nickname. England has had 2 Harolds and 8 Henrys as kings. (And there were of course no English kings named Arthur, although they narrowly missed twice.)
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Round Pink Spider - May 20, 2006 3:00 am (#143 of 208)
Your point about "Harry" is taken. However, she is proposing in her book that Merlin was a real person, so therefore that would make King Arthur real, too. This is fiction, after all...
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journeymom - May 20, 2006 11:16 am (#144 of 208)
Wasn't one of the real King Henrys called Harry in Shakespeare?
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Nathan Zimmermann - May 20, 2006 11:23 am (#145 of 208)
Journeymom, yes that name was applied to Henry V who ruled England from 1413 to 1422.
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wynnleaf - May 20, 2006 11:40 am (#146 of 208)
Edited May 20, 2006 12:41 pm
Henry V ... "a little touch of Harry in the night..." I love that.
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Robert Dierken - May 22, 2006 8:56 am (#147 of 208)
King Arthur is based on a real person, who is mentioned three times in the Saxon Chronicles:
(1) Arthur defeated the Saxons at the battle of Badon Hill.
(2) Arthur was not the king.
(3) Arthur and Modred killed each other at the battle of Camlann.
From (1) we know that Arthur was not English. (and the chap who killed him was Modred, not Mordred.)
Henry VIII is often referred to as Harry, but Harry Potter is just Harry.
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journeymom - May 22, 2006 9:09 pm (#148 of 208)
There was a Roman general, also called a prefect, in Britain named Lucius Artorius, of all things. How cool is that? He's one of the possible historical basis for King Arthur.
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journeymom - May 22, 2006 9:24 pm (#149 of 208)
Edited May 22, 2006 10:31 pm
Of course, what does this have to do with Harmony? Not much, but I do love the whole Arthur scenario.
Regardless, I'd like to go wildly off topic and refer to the Star Wars legends (I can hear the eyes rolling from here). Every time I read the title to this thread, Blood and Harmony, I think about it. My dear husband demonstrated to me that in Episodes I through III, the point is made that Anikan is the Chosen One who will bring balance. Well, that sounds all very well and good, but what the Jedis forgot is that a thousand years before they'd already destroyed the Sith and were now the protectors of the Republic. They already ruled with good will and the best interest of their fellow people. To bring any 'balance' to the Force would serve to push the balance of power towards The Dark Side. Which is exactly what happened when Obi Wan, and later Darth Sidious helped Anakin complete his training.
And I'm sorry, I know this is apropos of nothing HP, but I've been itching to get this into writing for a while. Thanks for indulging me.
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Magic Words - May 23, 2006 6:42 am (#150 of 208)
That's what I thought too, Journeymom, until someone pointed out that the Dark Side wasn't really extinct, just keeping a low profile, and Anakin wiped it out for good and all when he killed the emperor (and himself) to protect Luke. So I guess 'balance' really did mean good only, not equally strong good and evil.
I'm not really sure what this has to do with "blood," though I guess it could be "harmony" you're referring to. (Trying to tie this topic in to HP, since we've gotten started on it .) JKR's idea of harmony seems a bit different, since she's bent on including the Slytherins rather than eliminating them. Then again, not all Slytherins are evil, so it could be a matter of good/neutral representing balance and harmony while evil represents imbalance.
I happen to love Star Wars, so I don't at all mind comparing it to Harry Potter, even though JKR has warned us against thinking they're too similar. However, look at the way evil was destroyed in SW: a parent's love for a child. Sounds familiar. Of course, we'd then have to compare Amidala to Merope for dying of a broken heart when she had newborn babies to look after...
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Round Pink Spider - May 23, 2006 3:54 pm (#151 of 208)
Edited May 23, 2006 4:58 pm
Actually, to get back to Arthur...
I can show you exactly how Arthur ties in to Harmony, and I think you'll find it really interesting.
First, to address Robert's historical comments about Arthur, JKR's books incorporate the legends of King Arthur. They're not particularly concerned with the real, historical "Arthur". The legends are very important, and I'm going to address the reason in this post.
You've probably noticed the elements of Greek mythology in the book -- they're some of the most obvious "borrowed" elements that she's included. But she's actually borrowed elements from Egyptian, Roman, Germanic, Norse, and Celtic mythology, Germanic and Celtic legends, and a bunch of different literary sources. After a couple of years of research, I think I have identified the pattern of her borrowing. She went back to the source of the ideas in alchemy, then followed those ideas forward into mythology, legends, and literature, and incorporated appropriate references to those in her books.
The Arthurian legends are a great example. I'll start by going back to the ancient ideas underlying alchemy. One of those ancient ideas is the term arta, the True Order. The True Order represents proper harmony with nature and in society, which the ancients saw as interrelated. The True Order was exemplified by justice, truth, peace, and overall physical health. And, most importantly, the keystone to the True Order was a Righteous King.
The ancients believed that the King was to the society what the heart or soul was to the body: the element that pulled everything together and expressed the essence of the society. The king was "married" to his people and his land, so that evil done by the king resulted in war, famine, pestilence, and injustice; on the other hand, a Righteous King could restore peace and end injustice. This concept went so far that there was a belief that a true King could heal his subjects with a touch, a belief that lasted right through Medieval times in Europe.
Those of you familiar with Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion will get all this. Tolkien was an expert on ancient mythologies and languages. He actually used the name "Arda" as the elves' name for the world, a reference to the term arta. And Aragorn was an image of the Righteous King -- before he accepted his kingship, Middle Earth was falling farther and farther into decay; when he accepted the kingship, he began to restore peace and justice. He was able to heal others ("The hands of the king are the hands of healing..."). He was also foresighted, another classic association with arta.
These ideas about kingship were transmitted along with mythologies from the Greeks and Romans to the Germanic tribes. You can see them in a slightly altered form in the legends about Sigmund and Sigurd. These Germanic legends combined with the Celtic legends about Merlin (and probably the reality of "Arthur") and eventually formed the legends of King Arthur. For example, in Norse myth, Odin thrust a sword into the trunk of a living tree, and only the king's son, Sigmund, was able to draw it forth. In the King Arthur legend, the sword was in a stone and anvil (in some legends, it was Merlin that put it there), and only the king's son, Arthur, could draw it forth.
In the legends of King Arthur (as they eventually developed over the centuries with the European additions), Arthur started as a Righteous King, but he was eventually betrayed by his wife and his best friend; in some versions, he began turning away from justice to protect his wife. In other versions, he had an incestuous union with his half-sister, and the child that resulted brought him down. In the end, the land suffered war, as the result of his unrighteous behavior.
Now we have Harry Potter. Someone hid Godric Gryffindor's sword in the Sorting Hat, and only Harry Potter, the "true Gryffindor", was able to draw it forth. This is one of the many ways that JKR has symbolized Harry as a "Righteous King," the person who can restore peace and order to society.
Dumbledore was symbolized as the previous Righteous King (the reason he led the "Order of the Phoenix," a symbol of the True Order). Dumbledore's withered hand was a symbol of his failing ability to unify society and the "Elements." At the beginning of OotP, Dumbledore was able to hold together Molly, Arthur, and Remus with Sirius, Mundungus, and Snape. But you can see the disparate elements in the Order of the Phoenix fall apart between the end of OotP and the end of HBP: Sirius died, Mundungus ran away, and Snape left.
So now Harry has to restore union and take on the role of Righteous King. I'm not going to suggest that Harry will ever wear a crown, but the symbols are there.
There are many other legendary and mythic elements that connect with the Righteous king image. But this show the way that King Arthur connects with "Harmony": through the image of the Righteous King, who maintains harmony in society.
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Catherine - May 24, 2006 5:10 am (#152 of 208)
I can show you exactly how Arthur ties in to Harmony, and I think you'll find it really interesting. –RPS
You did show this, but I am confused how this relates to Harry's blood.
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Round Pink Spider - May 24, 2006 5:26 am (#153 of 208)
Pardon me, Catherine.
The reason I started this thread was to share information about the reason Harry's blood appears to be so important, and see if anyone had any theories about where JKR might go with it. I think that part of the thread got quickly exhausted; it seemed that no one had any more idea than I did.
Harry's blood joins together Harry and Voldemort, as Air joins together Fire and Water. It's a link between them, a harmonia. Since no one has had any further speculations about Harry's blood, we've gone on to Harry as a harmonia, a unifier, in general. I brought up the information I did to show the way that the image of symbolic kingship is connected with Harry being a unifier, and why the Arthurian images seem to be in the story.
If you feel that the topic is inappropriate for this thread, I could move it or start a new thread, but to me it seemed that the overall topic of unification and harmony was still OK here. Please let me know what you think!
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Catherine - May 24, 2006 5:59 am (#154 of 208)
No pardon necessary, RPS.
I'm glad to know that I wasn't Confunded when I caught up on posts.
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Nathan Zimmermann - May 24, 2006 10:13 am (#155 of 208)
I have two questions that relate to Harry's blood. When Dumbledore and Harry are standing before the entrance to the inner chamber of the cave, Harry offers to use some of his own blood to gain entry to the cave. Dumbledore refuses Harry's offer by saying that "You are very kind, Harry," . . . "But, your blood is worth more than mine. . . ."(Cf chapter twenty-six page 714 of the large print edition).
First, Is the importance of Harry's blood only related to the protection gives him or is Harry's blood symbolic of Harry's ability to express great love and illustrate the potential he has to restore the balance of the natural order in the wizarding thereby producing harmony.
Second, Is the loss of Harry's blood as the result of the broken nose he suffered on the Hogwarts Express, symbolic of Harry's vulnerabilities?
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Magic Words - May 24, 2006 10:49 am (#156 of 208)
Blood as a unifying link keeps reminding me of the Sectumsempra scene in HBP: blood everywhere and a healing charm that sounded like a song....
Nathan, that quote about Harry's blood being worth more than Dumbledore's struck me as significant, too, but since Dumbledore didn't bat an eye when Harry used his own blood to get them out again, I figured it had no deeper meaning than what Dumbledore had already been saying, that Harry was more important in the war because only he could defeat Voldemort.
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Choices - May 24, 2006 4:00 pm (#157 of 208)
Going in, it seemed to me that Dumbledore did not want to draw fresh blood from Harry, but coming out, the blood was already there, so Dumbledore let Harry use it. What significance there is to that, I don't know.
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frogface - May 31, 2006 11:12 am (#158 of 208)
I think there must be significance. Remember the famous triumphant gleam? Well it came just after Harry told Dumbledore that he and Voldemort now share blood.
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Round Pink Spider - Jun 1, 2006 4:37 am (#159 of 208)
One of the alchemical symbols we've been discussing on the Treasure Hunt thread recently is the transformation of the White stone (from the second-to-last alchemical stage, the Albedo or White process) into the Red stone (in the last alchemical stage, the Rubedo or Red process). This is sometimes depicted as "cutting" the materials to make them "bleed." So first of all, I would suggest that the shedding of Harry's blood at the end is his step forward out of the White process into the Red process. It was in this scene that he began losing Albus Dumbledore, his "White" guide, so it makes sense that he would begin to move forward into the Red process. (Harry may shed a lot of blood in the last book! )
The second connection is a three-way connection between Kingship, Christian imagery, and alchemy. Obviously I can't go too deep into forbidden territory, but I will point out that the sacrifice of blood seems to be part of the symbolism of the Red King. It was in this scene that Harry essentially took over the Kingship from Dumbledore. It was the reverse of the beginning of the book: at the beginning, Dumbledore Apparated Harry, and told him that he was safe because he was with Dumbledore. At the end of this chapter, Harry Apparated Dumbledore, and assured him that he was safe -- and Dumbledore said he knew, because he was with Harry.
At the beginning of that chapter, Dumbledore led Harry through the water; at the end, Harry led Dumbledore through the water. So the shedding of Harry's blood was the beginning of his kingship.
BTW, Catherine told me offline that she understood that our topics cannot always involve Harry's blood as well as union and harmony. She wasn't kippendo-ing us; she just wanted a clarification. She said it's fine if the topics on this thread center on harmony and unification in general, as well as speculations about the value of Harry's blood.
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Ellen Jones - Jun 12, 2006 7:55 pm (#160 of 208)
Whew. This is my first post, so bear with me. (I also don't know how to put things in italics or to link to another post. If a mod wants to fix it for me, feel free.)
I've been reading through several of these threads (a daunting task) and I came across RoseMorninStar's post #90 about an interview with JKR which struck me as to why LV using Harry's blood could have caused DD's triumphant gleam:
“Ani Morison for Sunday Star Times New Zealand - My question is why does Harry keep going back to the Dursleys, when he is closer to the Weasleys than he is to them?
JK Rowling: That has been explained in the books to an extent, it has been explained in the books but possibly you haven't yet finished this book when it is made very clear. Harry receives magical protection from his mother's sacrifice as long as he remains close to her blood. In other words, Aunt Petunia. That protection won't continue to hold once he is a man, once he turns 17 - he is no longer given that protective aura by his mother, so Dumbledore wants him to go back one more time to ensure the protection continues to his 17th birthday and after that he really is on his own.”
1. Harry is protected when he is at Privet Drive because he is in proximity to Lily's blood, Petunia. It is being near the blood that protects him.
2. Lily's blood is in Harry.
3. Because LV used Harry's blood to regenerate a body for himself, he also has Lily's blood.
Could this be the ultimate paradox, that because Lily's blood flows through LV, so that when Harry is near LV he is protected by Lily's blood? Meaning it would be impossible for LV to kill Harry, just as it would have been impossible to kill him while he was at Privet Drive, essentially making LV a second "home base" for Harry?
This may have already been brought up and shot down, and if so I'd love it if someone would direct me to a thread where I could follow the discussion.
p.s. This alchemy business blows my mind. No wonder JKR doesn't crank out 2 or 3 books a year, like some authors.
p.p.s. RE: RPS's last post about process of alchemy, would there happen to be 7 stages of the process?
Thanks for listening.
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Magic Words - Jun 13, 2006 7:58 am (#161 of 208)
I've heard seven and twelve stages, Ellen, so I'm not sure which is right, or more widely accepted, or what. I know the last three are Black, White, and Red, and are almost definitely reflected by books 5, 6, and 7.
That blood idea is interesting, and not one I've heard before. I wish we knew more about exactly what the Dursleys' protection does. I interpreted it as some kind of Fidelius-like charm, that prevented Voldemort or his Death Eaters from coming near, which wouldn't fit your scenario because Harry has definitely come near Voldemort, but hmm... it bears thinking about.
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haymoni - Jun 13, 2006 8:40 am (#162 of 208)
I like that idea, Ellen, but Voldy was able to "Crucio" him pretty well, so I don't know how great the protection was.
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azi - Jun 13, 2006 9:36 am (#163 of 208)
Maybe the protection only extends to preventing death?
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Round Pink Spider - Jun 14, 2006 4:04 pm (#164 of 208)
Welcome to the Forum, Ellen!
I've heard this proposed before. In fact, I've even suggested it myself. It's possible that it's the case, but in the end, it's moot -- JKR dodged that bullet by leaving Voldemort out of HBP. At this point, I doubt they'll meet again before Harry is 17, at which point any protection Harry might have had from Lily's blood will be gone, no matter whose veins it might flow in.
However, there's one other point -- Dumbledore specifically indicated that Petunia had to take Harry in, thus completing a charm that Dumbledore had put on Harry. Harry had to be able to call Privet Drive "home" for the charm to work. Even if Voldemort captured Harry and brought him into his fortress voluntarily, it would never be a home for Harry. It would be a prison. So I don't think the protection would have applied.
p.s. This alchemy business blows my mind. No wonder JKR doesn't crank out 2 or 3 books a year, like some authors.
It blows my mind, too. And the alchemy is only one part of it. It is awe-inspiring the amount of literary detail she works in!
p.p.s. RE: RPS's last post about process of alchemy, would there happen to be 7 stages of the process?
As Magic Words has said, some alchemists made it 12, but most made it 7. Because of the seven books, I'd say JKR is going with seven.
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 29, 2006 7:13 am (#165 of 208)
The Greeks believed that the most important harmonia between Fire and Water was the Element Air. We can see this in the scene when Harry’s and Voldemort’s wands connected, too: Harry and Voldemort were suddenly levitated into the air to the “un-earth-ly” sound of phoenix song (Earth is Air’s opposite among the Elements, just as Fire is Water’s opposite). So the connection between Harry, as a “true Gryffindor” (representing Fire), and Voldemort, as a descendent of Slytherin (representing Water) was depicted with music and air, symbols of harmonia.
Now, where is all this going?
Back to the Elements and alchemy, people used to believe that there were four Humours in the body that corresponded with these Elements and that, just as the Elements had to be in balance for the universe to function, the Humours had to be in balance for the body to stay healthy. When Melissa Anelli asked JKR about the “gleam of triumph” in Dumbledore’s eyes when he heard that Voldemort had used Harry’s blood to recreate his body, she said, “That's still enormously significant. And let's face it, I haven’t told you that much is enormously significant, so you can let your imaginations run free there.”
A few weeks ago, I suddenly realize that blood is the Humour of the body that is supposedly connected to Air! Harry’s blood represents a harmonia, a connection, between Harry’s body and Voldemort’s, just as their wands connected them together, and even as the scar connects their minds together. (Remember that Harry said he felt as if his scar was turning him into an “aerial [Air-ial] that was tuned in to tiny fluctuations in Voldemort’s mood…” OotP, p. 554)
Where is she going with this? I don’t know.
I have been writing up all the information I have gathered in a series of lessons. When I got to this part, I suddenly had an inspiration for where JKR may be going with the blood!
When equal forces of Fire and Water are mixed, the Water extinguishes the Fire, and the Fire vaporizes the Water, resulting in mutual annihilation. We all know that Harry and Voldemort are opposites. Harry, as a Gryffindor, represents Fire, and Voldemort, as Slytherin's heir, represents Water, so in the normal course of events, their mental union would result in mutual annilhilation (as it almost did in SS/PS).
That's where Harry's blood comes in. As I noted above, Harry's blood represents Air, and Air is not annihilated by interaction with Water. That means that the bit of Harry's blood in Voldemort may prevent Harry's annihilation!
I don't know what form Harry's preservation might take from this, but I think this may be the reason that Harry's blood is enormously important. It may "put the stopper in Death" for Harry.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 29, 2006 11:06 am (#166 of 208)
Edited Aug 29, 2006 12:29 pm
RPS, your thoughts bring to mind Dumbledore's request to the Dursley's concerning Harry. "The magic I evoked fifteen years ago means that Harry has powerful protections while he can still call this house 'home.'. . . .This magic will cease to operate the moment that Harry turns seventeen; in other words, at the moment he becomes a man. I ask only this: that you allow Harry to return once more, to this house, before his seventeenth birthday, which will ensure that the protection continues until that time."(HBP Large Print Edition page 80).
To what extent are Harry's protections tied to the fact that Lily and Petunia are siblings?
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 30, 2006 7:33 am (#167 of 208)
I suppose one could say that, since blood is the Humour for Air, the sacrifice Lily made is sort of a foreshadowing of the sacrifice Harry will make. However, I don't think there's any direct connection between them. So I don't, for example, think that Petunia will be in any way connected with the protection from death that Harry might have at the end of book 7. Nor do I think that it's Lily's sacrifice running around in Voldemort's veins that will make the difference (IMO). I believe that Harry's blood forms a harmonia between himself and Voldemort, which in and of itself might be enough to keep Harry alive, just enough that he might not be "properly dead" and someone might be able to save him.
So that's my answer: I don't think there's any connection between Harry being saved by Voldemort having some of his blood, and Lily and Petunia being siblings.
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Phoenix - Aug 31, 2006 8:14 am (#168 of 208)
I just have a question - I was thinking Harry's natural ability to fly seems relevant to his blood connection to air. It was Harry's ability to fly that saved him from the dragon in the first task in GoF. It also made him the youngest Quidditch player (seeker) in a century. Harry used the element air to save Sirus with Buckbeak, and he flew to the MoM on a thestral to rescue Sirius, which was a blunder, but it exposed LV to the wizarding world. He also had a significant confrontation with Malfoy on a broomstick over Neville. Not to mention all of his famous captures of the 'snitch', which, RPS, you've noted represents 'secrets', so symbolically, he finds out secrets in the element of air. Is there a connection here, or am I stretching again?
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Choices - Aug 31, 2006 8:57 am (#169 of 208)
Phoenix - there was also the time Harry fought Voldemort and they rose up into the air in the golden cage as the wands locked on to each other. Interesting "air" connections.
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Phoenix - Aug 31, 2006 9:20 am (#170 of 208)
Choices, you're right - I missed the most significant one!
I was thinking about the tasks in GoF, and it's interesting that when Harry was fighting the dragon, the dragon basically combined the elements of air and fire. The lake was obviously water, and the maze, earth. The combination of air and fire seems to fit, as Harry, as Gryffindor represents fire, and the blood humour represents air. I know this is simplistic, but I wonder if that was a clue to RPS's conclusion above?
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 1, 2006 4:25 pm (#171 of 208)
Phoenix, it's unclear to me whether Harry's ability to fly is connected to Air or to Fire, since Fire is the Element that always moves upward. The Weasley family are heavily connected to Fire, not Air, yet most of them are great fliers. Even their car could fly! So I think the broom-riding ability might be an expression of Fire.
On the other hand, Harry and Voldemort going up in the Air during their fight in the graveyard is definitely connected to Air. So I think floating may be more of an Air thing. I'm just not sure.
On a different forum, I just was working on a lesson that included information about the tasks in GoF. I'm just going to copy that stuff to here:
The goal of the Harry Potter books seems to be bringing balance between the Houses. This is the purpose of a harmonia. As the books go on, Harry has become less and less a pure Gryffindor, and more and more a balance, a harmonia, between the Four Houses. This began in Goblet of Fire, when Harry helped each of the other three champions in turn.
At the beginning of GoF, the students from Durmstrang sat with the Slytherins, while the Beauxbatons students sat with the Ravenclaws. That means that Durmstrang was allied with Water, and Beauxbatons with Air (recall that the Durmstrangs came up through the lake in a ship, while the Beauxbatons came down through the air with flying horses).
The First Task involved Fire (dragons). In that task, Harry helped Cedric (Hufflepuff/Earth) by warning him about the dragons, giving him time to prepare. The Second Task involved Water (the lake). Harry helped Fleur (Beauxbatons/Air) with that task by rescuing her sister. The Third Task, involving Earth, was slightly different. Harry and Krum (Durmstrang/Water) faced Earth together when they found Mr. Crouch, who was killed (Death is associated with Earth). Then during the task, Harry stopped Krum from torturing Cedric (Earth) when Krum was under the Imperius Curse. And after Cedric died, Krum spoke to Harry about the way that Cedric had always been polite to him, even though he was from Durmstrang. So by helping the other Champions, Harry was forging connections between the different Elements.
The last connection to be forged was that between Harry (Gryffindor/Fire) and Air. That connection started in the graveyard. Wormtail took blood from Harry, and used it to recreate Voldemort’s body. It so happens that blood is the bodily Humour associated with Air. By using Harry’s blood, Voldemort created a harmonia between the two of them. Later in that scene, Harry’s and Voldemort’s wands joined together, to the sound of phoenix song, once again creating a harmonia. In Order of the Phoenix, Harry’s connection with Air became more apparent:
“…he often felt lurches of annoyance or cheerfulness that were unrelated to what was happening to him at the time, which were always accompanied by a particularly painful twinge from his scar. He had the horrible impression that he was slowly turning into a kind of aerial that was tuned in to tiny fluctuations in Voldemort’s mood…” (OotP, p. 554)
Harry was turning into an Air-ial!
In HBP, we noticed that Fleur remained connected to both Water and Air -- "Phlegm" is the Humour associated with Water. Water is also associated with Love. Fleur first saw Bill when he came with his mother to support Harry in the Third Task. So that's another way that Harry helped link Fleur with Water -- he indirectly introduced her to her future husband.
I know that's kind of overkill in response to your comment about the dragon and Fire and Air, but that's what I take from the Elements in GoF.
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Phoenix - Sep 1, 2006 9:12 pm (#172 of 208)
Edited Sep 1, 2006 10:18 pm
RPS, I like your overkill. I get so wrapped up in the details, of which there are many, that I often overlook the big picture. I appreciate the time you took in pointing it out again. The details stop making sense without being pulled into the larger context.
It's interesting - Harry's function as harmonia often is precipitated by him becoming separate or singled out. In the first 2 books, by preventing Voldemort from coming back, he maintained the harmonia of the wizarding world. In PS, he was hated for losing points for Gryffindor before he faced Quirrel-Mort. He had to re-commit the very act he was resented for - leaving the common room and wandering at night.
In CoS, everyone thought Harry to be Slytherin's heir. By killing the basilisk, Harry prevented Hogwarts from being closed, as well as stopping Voldemort. Basically, in the first 2 books, Harry maintained the equilibrium, or harmonia that already existed in the wizarding world. Well, actually, he was instrumental in clearing Hagrid's name in CoS and freeing Dobby.
In PoA, though, Harry goes well beyond maintaining the status quo by connecting with Sirius and uncovering the truth to at least DD and saving both Sirius and Buckbeak. In this book he was singled out because of Trelawnley's prediction of the Grim, and for a large part of the book, Harry thought he was being tailed by a Grim, so he was separated by his fears. Also, the profound effect the dementors had on him, he had to work to overcome. This book seemed to represent more inner struggles and feelings of separateness, which led to personal connections for him.
In GoF, Harry becomes completely separated from the entire school for a time, even divided from Ron, before he becomes the harmonia as you described above. This was the most significant beginning of his role as a harmonia above and beyond the status quo.
In OotP, well, his separation is very clear throughout most of the book, but it results in a harmonia between the MoM, DD, and the wizarding community at large. He also brings together the DA. But at the end, Harry feels more separate than ever because of the prophecy, and his grief over Sirius. In HBP, Harry is actually separated this time because of his popularity being the 'Chosen One.' He's also the only one who thinks Malfoy is up to something big. At the end when DD dies, Harry takes on the mantle of finding the horcruxes and destroying Voldemort, which is kind of a harmonia with his destiny within the wizarding world. But it's interesting, because he always goes through extreme separations, for being the one to create harmonia. It's a kind of duality.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 2, 2006 5:29 am (#173 of 208)
Let's face it -- Harry is stuck being a leader, and that means he'll be singled out. *sigh* It's tough being the one everyone looks to. I've wondered if Harry will slip out of this at the end because everyone thinks he's dead (aside from his close friends), and he's able to just slip away and marry Ginny. But I don't think that's likely with his role as symbolic king... just wishful thinking!
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Die Zimtzicke - Sep 2, 2006 7:31 pm (#174 of 208)
I think Harry's function as harmonia will cause him to remain a lone hero if he survives. I know that's not a popular opinion, but I still think it's possible.
Or he could even be a dead hero, and his passing is the uniting factor. "No greater love is there than this; to lay down one's life for a friend" and all that. Only he could lay down his life for the world.
I know that's going to be an unpopular opinion, too.
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Phoenix - Sep 2, 2006 7:41 pm (#175 of 208)
Edited Sep 2, 2006 8:59 pm
This is true. All his separations and trials have prepared him to lead and follow his truth. After what he's been through, neither public opinion nor the MoM will ever sway him from his path, I don't think. It is just fascinating, though, how well JKR built this into the story.
I would like to see him marry Ginny too, but it does look like he's going to follow in Dumbledore's footsteps. Dumbledore was a 'harmonia', but he was separate.
Associating flying with fire goes against all my inclinations, but if I think of it in terms of air feeds fire, it makes a bit more sense to me, as Harry does seem to gain power through flight. Flying just seems like it should be an air association.
DZ, our posts just crossed. I do agree Harry's death could be a uniting factor in the wizarding world. He would be a true martyr. People would look at everything he did in his life, like freeing Dobby the house elf, and try to emulate him. However, if he is taking DD's place as a king, he would need time to 'rule', so to speak. There will still be many contributions he could make, although I don't think he has Dumbledore's brilliance.
And you're right, I would hate to see Harry die.
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Die Zimtzicke - Sep 3, 2006 4:43 pm (#176 of 208)
Oh, I'd love to see Harry die. I think it's the most fitting ending. And I loathe Ginny Weasely. But I know that's not a popular opinion.
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wynnleaf - Sep 5, 2006 11:45 am (#177 of 208)
Die Zimtzicke,
I reprinted your comment on the Harry Potter thread, with a request that you explain the reasons behind your comment. Hope you don't mind. I am not wanting to argue, but am simply quite curious.
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Die Zimtzicke - Sep 6, 2006 9:52 am (#178 of 208)
As I said there, but will elaborate on here, I think that Harry dying would be a fitting ending. He's always been the means to an end. He's intertwined with Voldemort to the point that they can become part of each other. Harry didn't know where he began and Voldemort ended when he was possessed. One may well have to die to defeat the other. And I think Jo could do that well. She does action well. You get the Christian ideal that ties in with the comment Jo made in response to fundamentalists about her faith affecting her work then. There is no greater love than this to lay down one's life for one's friends, so to speak. He leaves the world safe for those he leaves behind, and goes to a better life.
Harry, whose next life HAS to be better than this one, gets to go on to the next great adventure, is reunited with his parents, and Sirus, and Dumbledore.
That's not losing. That's winning with style. Too many people say Harry can't die, because it would be a horrible ending. Why does it have to be horrible? The books stress the afterlife constantly. Look at the veil, the ghosts, and what Dumbledore said about Flamel. It ties into to most hero's journeys. They don't end up with double weddings, picket fences and twelve kids usually, unless you're watching Disney versions.
And, as Jo pointed out in New York, it means it would be harder for another author to recreate Harry later. "Scarlett" is a great example of a case where that went bad, in my opinion.
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haymoni - Sep 6, 2006 10:24 am (#179 of 208)
Edited Sep 6, 2006 11:25 am
She said she understood why an author might do that (kill off a character), but I never thought it was a problem for her (leaving them alive so that someone else can write more).
It is one thing for Nicholas Flamel and Dumbledore to go on to the next great adventure. It was a total tragedy for Cedric - what a waste!
I just don't see her punishing Harry as she has, only to kill him in the end. She just doesn't seem that heartless.
And then there is that dinner companion thing, which I have admitted is desperation on my part, but I'm holding tight!
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 7, 2006 4:36 pm (#180 of 208)
Edited Sep 7, 2006 5:38 pm
I understand your point of view now, Die Zimtzicke, and to some extent I even agree with it. I do think that his dying in a noble sacrifice to defeat Voldemort would be a fitting end, and I agree that JKR could carry it off in style.
That said, I think it's highly unlikely that that's the ending that JKR would choose, for a number of reasons:
1. Haymoni is right that JKR probably views premature death as a tragedy. JKR's own background of losing her mother when her mother was only in her 40s inclines me to think that JKR would be unlikely to end it that way. But I think that's not really very conclusive.
2. The books are particularly preoccupied with Harry growing up. She has actually said that she find the idea of Peter Pan, the boy who never grew up, rather sinister (those were her words). So I find it very unlikely that she'd leave her hero in the state of never growing up -- going off to the afterlife like a kid, with his parents and teacher, never being married or having children. That's how Sirius ended up, and she has made it clear that she saw Sirius as someone who never really grew up. Harry has been going through all the ordinary elements of growing up -- adolescent pangs, dating, being popular or unpopular. Why would she throw all that away, and have him never finish growing up?
3. The alchemical symbolism supports both his surviving and getting married, and the alchemical symbolism is the most important and reliable clue to the stories. In the previous books, Harry was symbolized as the Salt, which brings the Red King (Sulphur -- Ron) and the White Queen (Mercury -- Hermione), the quarreling couple, together in marriage. Unless they get married in the next book, I think Harry has to be there, or the symbolism won't be fulfilled. Then, in HBP, Harry was portrayed as a Red King (remember that his antidote potion smelled of rotten eggs -- a sulphur reference). Ginny is his White Queen. Again, the symbolism won't be fulfilled unless he marries.
Also, all the alchemical symbolism indicates that Harry is meant to represent the Philosopher's Stone. One of the symbols of the Stone is the Red King that dies, and is then restored to life.
Again, I don't disagree with you that Harry's death as a hero would be a fitting ending. I just don't think that the alchemical background supports it. And I'm truly, honestly sorry to hear that you dislike Ginny Weasley as a character, because I think JKR is working hard to make her a heroine worthy of Harry, someone courageous and self-sacrificing in her own right.
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Choices - Sep 7, 2006 5:07 pm (#181 of 208)
Wonderfully stated as usual RPS. I enjoyed your thoughts and totally agree. Long live Harry!
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Phoenix - Sep 8, 2006 5:12 pm (#182 of 208)
I second Choices' comments! Thanks again, RPS! With DZ's comments, and my own thoughts, I had myself talked into Harry dying again!
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 12, 2006 1:52 pm (#183 of 208)
Phoenix, I should post a warning, here: from the symbolism, I would expect Harry to appear dead, at least for a while. He might not; as in SS/PS, he might just pass out, and then regain consciousness later. But I wouldn't be surprised if we see Harry looking dead, and having his friends mourning him and bringing his body back to Hogwarts, and maybe even talking about his funeral, maybe even for several days. But I believe that he will only appear dead, and that he will be resuscitated, probably by Hufflepuff's cup. We'll have to wait and see, though. If he's "dead," and he's still dead by the end of the book, well then, he's really dead!
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Soul Search - Sep 12, 2006 2:37 pm (#184 of 208)
Round Pink Spider,
If he's "dead," and he's still dead by the end of the book, well then, he's really dead!
I don't know. If Harry is dead at the end of book seven, I'll bet there will be zillions of hints that he is not really dead. We will find them all and discuss it for years and years.
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Phoenix - Sep 12, 2006 3:02 pm (#185 of 208)
Edited Sep 12, 2006 4:03 pm
RPS - fascinating theory! I don't know why, and it's probably way off base, but Harry emerging from his invisibility cloak in Hogsmeade behind Ron and Hermione comes to mind. And Tonks 'resurrecting' him from a death-like state (frozen, immobile, and invisible) comes to mind, as well as Harry 'coming back to life' after DD dies. He's very 'ghost-like' in these instances. Do you think these may be clues for Book 7?
And Soul Search, you're absolutely right! Fans will be clamoring for JKR to write another book (or set of books) resurrecting him! I don't know that she could take the heat!
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painting sheila - Sep 12, 2006 6:20 pm (#186 of 208)
RPS - Why do you think the Hufflepuff cup would bring him to life? Just curious?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 12, 2006 7:48 pm (#187 of 208)
Edited Sep 12, 2006 9:43 pm
Painting Sheila, in mythological terms cups, and cauldrons are traditionally associated with rebirth, rejuvenation, and restoration of the earth and by extension the body. For example, in Celtic myth the god Dagda the leader of the Tuatha Dé Danann possessed a cauldron akin to a horn of plenty
The Irish-Celtic god of the earth and treaties, and ruler over life and death. Dagda, or The Dagda, ("the good god") is one of the most prominent gods and the leader of the Tuatha Dé Danann. He is a master of magic, a fearsome warrior and a skilled artisan. Dagda is a son of the goddess Danu, and father of the goddess Brigid and the god Aengus mac Oc. The Morrigan is his wife, with whom he mates on New Years Day.
The Dagda is portrayed as possessing both super- human strength and appetite. His attributes are a cauldron with an inexhaustible supply of food, a magical harp with which he summons the seasons, and an enormous club, with one end of which he could kill nine men, but with the other restore them to life. He also possessed two marvellous swine---one always roasting, the other always growing---and ever-laden fruit trees. One of his epithets is Ollathir, which means "All-father". He is identified with the Welsh Gwydion and the Gallic Sucellos.
Dagda. Encyclopedia Mythica from Encyclopedia Mythica Online. <[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] [Accessed September 12, 2006].
Also notable is the Pair Dyrnwch Gawr: The Cauldron of Dyrnwch the Giant: According the legends surrounding it, when food was placed in the cauldron it would cook the food instantaneously. However, if a coward paced food in the cauldron it would remain uncooked.
Over time these legends coalesced into the idea of the Cauldron of Annwn, the Cauldron of the Cure and the Holy Grail of Arthurian literature.
Hufflepuff House is associated with the associated with the element of Earth as is exmplified by Pomona Sprout the head of Huffllepuff House and Professor of Herbology and the down to earth character of Cedric Diggory.
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Phoenix - Sep 12, 2006 8:03 pm (#188 of 208)
Excellent, Nathan! Just to add on, Lord Voldemort was reborn in a cauldron, so JKR is following the mythology.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 12, 2006 8:41 pm (#189 of 208)
Edited Sep 12, 2006 9:50 pm
As Phoenix pointed out Voldemort was reborn in cauldron.
It is interesting that this cauldron was made of stone, which in and of itself is representative of earth, and in the potion he used the blood of his enemy Harry in the potion that allows him to be reborn. Harry's blood is often associated with the element of air. Air and Earth are considered transitional elements in the sense that they bridge the gaps between the elements of Fire (Gryffindor) and Water (Slytherin).
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 18, 2006 11:43 am (#190 of 208)
Well, Painting Sheila... there you go! An admirable summary!
Phoenix, I don't know whether or not those were hints about the end of book 7, although it's possible. We talked about Tonks being associated with Heket and the Fates in her role of leading Harry through the crossroads, and between symbolic death and life. So... could be! As far as Dumbledore goes, well, Harry always dies a symbolic death at the end of the book. In HBP, effectively Dumbledore sacrificed his life in Harry's place, although Harry still was in a form of symbolic death, immobile, unable to speak or interfere, until Dumbledore died.
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journeymom - Sep 18, 2006 1:04 pm (#191 of 208)
Harry always dies a symbolic death at the end of the book. Okay, I'm a rank amateur to your professionalism in regard to the symbolism in the HP books. But I can't figure out where Harry dies (symbolically) in GoF.
PS- Fight with QuirrellMort, Harry passes out.
CoS- "You're dead, Harry Potter..." Basilisk poisoning.
PoA- Dementors nearly get him.
GoF- ?
OotP- Possessed by LV, wants to die.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 18, 2006 4:05 pm (#192 of 208)
Journeymom, In GoF Voldemort attempted to use the Killing Curse on Harry and at the same moment Harry attempted to deprive Voldemort of his wand using Expelliarmus during the confrontation in the graveyard.
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journeymom - Sep 19, 2006 8:38 am (#193 of 208)
Ahhh. Okay, I'll take it. I guess I wasn't counting that because Harry never passes out or is poisoned, he never physically has a near death experience. But the whole thing takes place in a graveyard, LV is trying to kill him, Pettigrew has already injured him, he's been wracked with pain from cruciatus and LV migrains.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 20, 2006 4:13 am (#194 of 208)
Edited Sep 20, 2006 5:17 am
Journeymom, let me make a more complete answer. I was referring to an idea that a lot of people are familiar with, so I just gave it a passing nod. But if you aren't so familiar with the idea, it bears repeating.
In the climax of each book, Harry enters an Underworld or a "land of the dead." He gains the key information, experiences a symbolic death, and is saved or restored by an image of rebirth, sometimes a Christian one. I will mention these, not to discuss religion, but because they are pertinent to the books.
In Sorcerer’s Stone, Harry and his friends had to get past Fluffy, a three-headed dog that represented Cerberus, the dog that guarded the Greek Underworld. They traveled under the ground to reach the Philosopher’s Stone. Harry stopped Quirrel from getting the Stone by grabbing his arm. Dumbledore, whom Harry heard “calling him by name” before he passed out, saved Harry from dying. He woke from a coma after three days.
In Chamber of Secrets, Harry and Ron slid down the pipes until they were far under the ground. There, Harry confronted Tom Riddle and the Basilisk, a giant serpent. (The Basilisk, which the spiders feared to name, symbolizes Voldemort, whom most people fear to name.) Although Harry defeated the Basilisk, he was poisoned and dying. Then Fawkes the phoenix, a symbol of resurrection, healed him. With Fawkes’ help, he ascended back to the land of the living.
In Prisoner of Azkaban, Harry and Hermione passed under the earth to follow what appeared to be a “Grim,” a symbol of death. They emerged in the Shrieking Shack, a place that was supposedly haunted, but was actually a place of hidden secrets. There they saw Sirius, a man who had been “buried alive” in Azkaban, and who’d concealed himself as a Grim-like dog. The secrets of Sirius, Wormtail, and Remus were revealed. After they left the Shrieking Shack, dementors surrounded Sirius and Harry, and Harry was nearly destroyed. His own Patronus, in the form of the White Stag, saved him. The Celts considered the White Stag a warning that the Otherworld, the spiritual world, was near. The White Stag would bar the passage of mortals to the spiritual world.
In Goblet of Fire, the Triwizard Cup pulled Harry and Cedric away to a cemetery, a “land of the dead.” There, Voldemort forced Harry to fight him. When their wands connected, Harry heard phoenix song, again a symbol of resurrection, and images of those Voldemort had killed appeared to save Harry. (This was a death image because Harry was able to see those who had died, as if he himself were also dead.) The cup, a symbol of the Grail or chalice of the Last Supper, brought Harry back to the land of the living. He returned lying on the ground beside a corpse, but Dumbledore raised him from the earth.
In Order of the Phoenix, “branches of candles” lit the rotating room through which Harry and his friends passed. These candles burned with a blue fire that made the floor look like water. We think this was a pun on crossing the River Styx (sticks/branches), the river one had to cross to enter the Greek Underworld. On the other side, Harry faced the Death Eaters in the Death Chamber. He chased Bellatrix back upstairs, and once again faced Voldemort. A statue with outstretched arms, reminiscent of crucifixion, saved him from death. Then Harry looked up and saw Dumbledore standing “in front of the golden gates,” a pun on the gates of Heaven. Effectively, Dumbledore stood between him and death. When Harry abandoned the protection of the statue’s arms, Voldemort the Serpent possessed him. However, Love drove the serpent away.
In Half-Blood Prince, Harry and Dumbledore entered another underground “land of the dead,” a lake filled with Inferi. To enter and leave the chamber, someone had to sacrifice his blood, again a Christian reference. Dumbledore had to drink a cup that meant his death, again a symbol of the Last Supper. When they returned to the tower, which lay under the Dark Mark, a symbol of death, Dumbledore put Harry in a Full-body Bind. Since Harry was already under his invisibility cloak, this was a symbolic death: Harry was unable to act, speak, or be seen by the others present, as if he were a spirit. Effectively, Dumbledore died to protect and save Harry. When Harry saw Dumbledore dead at the foot of the tower, he was “spread-eagled,” again a symbol of crucifixion. It was while kneeling at the foot of this symbolic “cross” that Harry learned the secret of R.A.B., which we believe will lead him to one of Voldemort’s Horcruxes in the last book.
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journeymom - Sep 20, 2006 8:22 am (#195 of 208)
Edited Sep 20, 2006 9:23 am
The Celts considered the White Stag a warning that the Otherworld, the spiritual world, was near. The White Stag would bar the passage of mortals to the spiritual world. That's interesting. I did not know this. I'd wondered about the antler crown that the prince (like Arthur in some versions of the legend) had to don in order to become king. Though perhaps that has too much fertility symbolism than is appropriate for a HP book!
In Order of the Phoenix, “branches of candles” lit the rotating room through which Harry and his friends passed. These candles burned with a blue fire that made the floor look like water. We think this was a pun on crossing the River Styx (sticks/branches), the river one had to cross to enter the Greek Underworld. Very cool!
Thanks, RPS, for reiterating the theory.
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Die Zimtzicke - Sep 20, 2006 8:26 am (#196 of 208)
Round Pink Spider, that was the best summary of that theory I have ever read. Can I quote you on that in some other threads? LOL! Honestly, that was just masterful.
But I still hope if Harry dies in the last book, he'll stay dead. I think it will be time for him to go onto the next great adventure at that point, having given his life for his friends. He may then rise above the fray. His physical presence is not necessary to achieve harmony, as I see it. However, I could be dead wrong, and it wouldn't be the first time.
I have also seen theories that Ginny dies, giving Harry the resolve to win. They are based on the Eurydice story. When Eurydice was tempted to betray her love, Orpheus, she fled and was struck on the ankle by a snake (Ginny's broken ankle in OotP is considered the foreshadowing for this) and sent to the underworld. Orpheus tried to get her back, and succeeded in winning her freedom. Before they could get away, Eurydice did something she was warned not to do (Headstrong Ginny could do this in the theory) and had to stay dead.
That theory, which is popular on several other boards, has Harry going to the underworld, but unsuccessfully, to rescue Ginny. He then, as I mentioned earlier, has the resolve he needs to win.
Any comments on that theory as to Harry's possible trip to the land of the dead?
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Steve Newton - Sep 20, 2006 8:44 am (#197 of 208)
Just a quick addition. Hermione draws 3 crosses on the doors. Another possible reference to the theme which cannot be discussed.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 20, 2006 12:59 pm (#198 of 208)
Edited Sep 20, 2006 2:15 pm
I'd wondered about the antler crown that the prince (like Arthur in some versions of the legend) had to don in order to become king. Though perhaps that has too much fertility symbolism than is appropriate for a HP book!
Journeymom, I'm afraid that Celtic mythology is one of my weak points. I seem to remember one of the Otherworld figures being a figure crowned with antlers, and that he was sometimes called the Lord of the Wood. But I really don't know enough to speak intelligently on the subject.
Round Pink Spider, that was the best summary of that theory I have ever read. Can I quote you on that in some other threads? LOL! Honestly, that was just masterful.
Thank you, Die Zimtzicke. As far as quoting me... well, you have my permission, but I hope the powers that be don't get on my case about the religious references! Unfortunately, it's really hard to talk about HP without mentioning them, because HP is based on alchemy, and alchemy is full of religious references.
I have also seen theories that Ginny dies, giving Harry the resolve to win. They are based on the Eurydice story. When Eurydice was tempted to betray her love, Orpheus, she fled and was struck on the ankle by a snake (Ginny's broken ankle in OotP is considered the foreshadowing for this) and sent to the underworld... Any comments on that theory as to Harry's possible trip to the land of the dead?
To start with, Greek mythology tends to be negative and pessimistic by its nature. You'll see this if you look at the way most mythic stories end. That doesn't fit JKR's stories very well. Secondly, JKR never uses all the aspects of a mythic story. She only touches on them, and moves on. So just because Eurydice ended up stuck in the Underworld, it doesn't necessarily follow that Ginny would, too.
I am already suspicious that Voldemort might use Ginny (or someone else, like Hagrid) to force Harry's hand and draw him into a final confrontation. So certainly I could see that happening. However, all the "lands of the dead" so far have been symbolic, and I expect the one in which Harry faces Voldemort for the last time to be symbolic also. In that sense, I can see Ginny ending up in a "land of the dead." It's possible (even likely) that Harry might die and see his beloved dead around him, and then return. Even we muggles can manage that!
Now, in answer to your other question -- I can imagine both Harry and Ginny surviving, or Harry really dying and Ginny surviving, or Ginny and Harry both really dying. But I can't imagine Ginny really dying, and Harry surviving. It's true that that sort of thing happens in real life, but literature isn't real life.
The creation of a book (or set of books) has a certain logic of efficiency in it, a certain streamlining. To have Harry try to save Ginny and fail would be a waste of writing effort. It would be inefficient -- it wouldn't advance the story. All the events in a book need to advance the story emotionally in some way.
Losing Sirius advanced the story, because it forced Harry to grow up -- he lost his father figure, and he faced death. Losing Dumbledore advances the story, because it forces Harry to stand alone to face Voldemort. He no longer has the virtually undefeatable Dumbledore to help or protect him. Now he must rely on his friends and his wits. Were Harry to lose Hagrid or Lupin or Prof. McGonagall near the end of book 7, it might goad him on to fight, so as to put an end to the killing. But losing Ginny during the climax, or at the end of the climax (as her being unable to leave the "Underworld") would not really lead to any growth necessary to the story. It would be bad writing.
Just a quick addition. Hermione draws 3 crosses on the doors. Another possible reference to the theme which cannot be discussed.
Crosses and crossings are a prevalent symbol in the books. If you look, you'll find them everywhere.
I am suspicious right now that the 3 rooms they explore have some connection with the Horcruxes, or more likely with the way Harry gets information for them. But I'm just sitting on that idea and waiting to see if I'm right or not.
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Mollyweaselbee - Oct 18, 2006 10:42 am (#199 of 208)
If I may say this on this site, May I just say that after reading the posts on this page I feel that I have entered a site of highly intelligent and intellectual people and I do not think that I could elaborate on anyone of the posts. Thank you - I really enjoyed reading them.
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journeymom - Oct 18, 2006 1:05 pm (#200 of 208)
Mollyweaselbee, I know what you're saying! The people at this site utilize disciplined logic and classical education to back up some wonderful theories. But that doesn't stop me from diving right in and commenting anyway! Lol!
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Thom Matheson - Oct 18, 2006 1:30 pm (#201 of 208)
Journeymom, and don't forget, "It's magic".
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S.E. Jones - Oct 18, 2006 3:13 pm (#202 of 208)
RPS --As far as quoting me... well, you have my permission, but I hope the powers that be don't get on my case about the religious references! Unfortunately, it's really hard to talk about HP without mentioning them, because HP is based on alchemy, and alchemy is full of religious references.—
RPS, I don't see you around nearly enough, it's good to hear from you!
While I doubt all forumers will share your belief that HP is based on alchemy, you are right in your assertion that HP contains lots of religious references and symbolism. As long as you are referring to the references as references and using the symbolism as symbolism, there's nothing wrong with mentioning it. We only discourage religious discussion that discusses religion as a focus of the debate, that members may find supporting one particular religion over another, that members may find disrespectful of a specific religion, that members may find offensive, etc. If you are simply using references and symbolism as a means to an end in terms of creating a theory or taking a stance on a particular HP-based debate, then there shouldn't be any problems.
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Round Pink Spider - Oct 21, 2006 3:47 pm (#203 of 208)
Edited Oct 21, 2006 4:48 pm
While I doubt all forumers will share your belief that HP is based on alchemy, you are right in your assertion that HP contains lots of religious references and symbolism. As long as you are referring to the references as references and using the symbolism as symbolism, there's nothing wrong with mentioning it.
Thank you very much, S.E.! I appreciate your reassurance. As far as the alchemy, well, HP includes so much history, mythology, literature, and other stuff, that we can all approach it from any direction and find things to learn and admire. That, I'm sure we can all agree about!
If I may say this on this site, May I just say that after reading the posts on this page I feel that I have entered a site of highly intelligent and intellectual people and I do not think that I could elaborate on anyone of the posts. Thank you I really enjoyed reading them.
Mollyweaselbee, if only I had a nickel for every time I've heard someone saying that! And lots of times, that comment is followed by real, solid contributions within just a few days/weeks...
Journeymom is right. Everyone comes here knowing things that others here might not. So don't be shy! Jump right in!
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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 22, 2006 3:38 pm (#204 of 208)
Mollyweaselbee, yes indeed feel free to jump right in!
RPS. I hope you get a chance to catch up on the Literary Symbolism thread and that you and Ana approve of the work that has been done there.
Since, blood is often connected to elemental air I would like to post some thoughts
1. In PS chapter 5 we are told that Lily Evans’ first wand was good for charm work.
2. In PS we learned that Professor Flitwick is the Professor Flitwick is teaches charms and is head of Ravenclaw House, which is connected to elemental air.
3. Is possible that as with spells and enchantments that guarded the Philosopher's Stone, that Professors Dumbledore assisted by Professors Flitwick and Slughorn supplemented and strengthened the the force of Lily's sacrifice and its imprint on Harry's blood?
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Laura W - Oct 23, 2006 1:09 am (#205 of 208)
Edited Oct 23, 2006 2:15 am
Thank you very much, S.E.! I appreciate your reassurance. As far as the alchemy, well, HP includes so much history, mythology, literature, and other stuff, that we can all approach it from any direction and find things to learn and admire. That, I'm sure we can all agree about!
Very wise, RPS.
As one who does not read fantasy books at all (just personal preference), but who is and always has been very engaged in social justice issues both on a personal and professional level, when I read my first HP book (PS) almost exactly one year ago, my initial reaction was, "Why this book is about social justice issues (ie - child abuse, racism, classism, war and peace, treatment of the disadvantaged and the 'different' in society, morality and ethics on a global level, power, corruption, goodness, etc.)! Nobody told me that! I just thought this was going to be a well-written series of fantasy novels for children, which is fine in itself but wouldn't be anything I would choose to read. It is SO MUCH MORE." And that is how I have continued to see all six books.
Of course, as you say, the HP books speak very loudly to each of the people on this Forum in many different ways. As it should be. What a tribute to JKR that she strikes so *many* cords with us, so strongly!
Sorry if I have digressed. Just wanted to acknowledge my appreciation of RPS 's comment above. Now back to "Blood and Harmony" ... alchemy, mythology and, of course, magic.
Laura
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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 23, 2006 8:42 am (#206 of 208)
The title of Chapter Twelve of HBP is Silver and Opals
The use of opals in the title. Is intriguing because, opals when placed under under proper lighting opalesce, transforming reflected light into multiple colors in including red and green.
First, in Greek mythology opals were held to be made of elemental water, (Slytherin's element) because, opals were tears that Zeus cried after the victory over the Titans, and were considered to impart the gift of prophecy and foresight while, the Roman associated opals with the traits of love, hope and purity.
Second, Arabic lore holds that opals were made of fire (Gryffindor's element) because, they rained down from the skies along with the lightning bolts that gave mankind fire.
However, there is a third way of looking at the opals, which involves a melding of elemental fire and elemental water through the use of a harmonizing agent.
The concept of melding the traits of a Slytherin as symbolized by the colors green and silver, and to a degree the courage and valour of Gryffindor as symbolized by the colors red and gold as demonstrated by
In essence the harmonizing agent is elemental air because, elemental air is often described as being both hot and wet in the sense that it bridges the gap leading from elemental fire, which is argued to be hot and dry represented by Gryffindor and its colors red and gold, and elemental water, cold and wet as symbolized by Slytherin with its color scheme green and silver. In the series elemental air is illustrated by Ravenclaw House with its colors of blue and bronze.
The ancient Roman philosopher Pliny wrote the following statements on opals:
"For in them you shall see the living fire of ruby, the glorious purple of the amethyst, the sea-green of the emerald, all glittering together in an incredible mixture of light."
Pliny the Elder as quoted here [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Pliny the Elder wrote a second similar statement on opals:
"There is in them a softer fire than the ruby, there is the brilliant purple of the amethyst, and the sea green of the emerald - all shining together in incredible union. Some by their splendor rival the colors of the painters, others the flame of burning sulphur or of fire quickened by oil."
Pliny The Elder as quoted here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
The presence of the amethyst in these quotations is illuminating because throughout the series the one prominent character associated with the color purple has been Albus Dumbledore.
Perhaps the opals in this chapter while referring directly to the cursed necklace possess a double meaning a meaning that implicitly suggests that in order overcome the impending darkness that Harry (the living fire of the ruby), must unite with Severus Snape, Horace Slughorn, and Draco Malfoy (the sea-green emerald) because, only by combining their strengths can they overcome the darkness and adequately prepare Harry for what is to come.
However, because, of his prior experience Harry is unlikely to do this without the presence of a harmonizing agent namely Albus or Aberforth Dumbledore (the brilliant amethyst), that tempers the fire of the ruby and the cool of the emerald.
Indeed ancient Hindu myths tell that Brahma, Shiva, and Vishnu vied for the love of the goddess of the rainbow and in order to protect her Brahman transformed her into a stone encompassing and uniting all colors of the rainbow.
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 10, 2007 11:20 pm (#207 of 208)
Harry Potter as the Sorting Hat points out in both PS and CoS would have done well in Slytherin House, yet Harry consciously made the choice not to be placed in Slytherin House and was placed in Gryffindor by the Sorting Hat, in essence
Harry is a Gryffindor that possesses some Slytherinesque traits. Harry melds the courage and valour of Gryffindor as symbolized by the house colors red and its heraldic device of a lion rampant while, demonstrating a Slytherinesque cunning and the ability avoid or escape situations that are generally disadvantageous preferring to fight only when no other alternative presents itself. Slytherin House's fluid is symbolized by the house colors green and silver, its heraldic device of a serpent.
Lily Evans Potter's status as a Gryffindor who was included in the Slug Club an organization founded by a Slytherin as well as her physical appearance the combination of green eyes and red hair?
Could it possible that Lily and Harry's association with both Gryffindor and Slytherin represent metaphorical bloodstones?
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Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 11, 2007 9:48 pm (#208 of 208)
Edited Jun 11, 2007 11:19 pm
I did some further research into bloodstones and there are some interesting myths that could have a bearing on Harry and the importance of his blood.
1. In the Middle Ages, bloodstone was believed to possess the properties to staunch blood flow. In an alchemical sense this may become important after Harry has been cut with the Hache, the knife necessary to achieve the Rubedo Process.
2. In the Middle Ages bloodstones were called the Martyr's Stone because of their frequent use in iconography depiciting death scenes. I would argue that the choices made by Harry Potter in Weasley's shed and again during the final lesson with Dumbledore reaffirms his decision to attempt to checkmate Voldemort even if results in his martyrdom in the hope that his defeat of Voldemort, will restore harmony to the wizarding World even though in order to do this he may have to sacrifice his life.
3. Also bloodstone was believed by several cultures to be an antivenom that could be utilized to counteract the bites of venomous snakes by drawing out the poison from the wound. Also, the bloodstone was believed to cure blood poisoning, these attributes may be useful should Harry or one of his allies be wounded by the Horcruxes in the process of destroying the Horcruxes especially with Nagini.
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