Severus and the Evans Sisters

Lady Arabella Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:47 pm

The following is an archive of material originally posted on the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum, hosted by World Crossing, which ceased operations on April 15th, 2011

Lady Arabella Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:52 pm

Severus and the Evans Sisters

me and my shadow 813 - Oct 5, 2005 12:04 am
Edited by Kip Carter Jan 3, 2006 12:59 am

I considered posting this in nicknames thread or to why Snape hates Harry/James etc. but...

I believe Lily dubbed Snape the Half-Blood Prince

Hermione said handwriting was obviously a girl's
in O of P "worst memory" chapter it is said that Snape's handwriting is miniscule and cramped
Lily and Snape were in Potions together...

...So after hearing him called "Snivellus" so much, Lily cheers him up by giving him a new nickname. She writes it in his book for him. He's over the moon. She also jots helpful potion hints in his book. He was a natural at spells but she was a natural at potions. (Maybe one day in class when the marauders are particularly obnoxious, she writes "just shove a bezoar down their throats")

In the "Worst Memory" chapter, it says that Lily's "furious expression had twitched for an instant as though she was going to smile". Snape must have seen it and so called her a Mudblood. Lily reacts and then calls him Snivellus. Game over...

So it's his worst memory not only because he was humiliated in front of her but because it was the end of their friendship. Of course he blames James for it, even more so when they (James and Lily) eventually fell in love and thus Harry in turn...

JKR said in an interview that Vold had never known love but that Snape had. So even if it was unrequited or just a friendly love... I believe it was a major thing in Snape's life and will be a revelation of book 7. It may also tie into why JKR says Lily didn't have to die that night. But that's another thread.

I changed the title from Theory about Lily and Severus to Theories about Severus and the Evans Sisters after the original author started a new thread Theory about Petunia and Severus with some of the same points. - Kip

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T Vrana - Oct 5, 2005 3:50 am (#1 of 273)

The description of "Half-Blood Prince" written in the book was "small and cramped". That is very close to miniscule and cramped, I think...

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LooneyLuna - Oct 5, 2005 5:00 am (#2 of 273)
Edited Oct 5, 2005 6:13 am

I agree that Lily and Severus enjoyed a friendship until that day we saw in "Snape's Worst Memory." I also think Lily might have invited Severus over to her house on holiday. I think he is the "awful boy" that Pet overheard telling Lily about the Dementors of Azkaban.

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Madam Pince - Oct 5, 2005 5:51 am (#3 of 273)

Good ideas, me and my shadow! I also picture Snape and Lily as lab partners in Potions class. I have often wondered about the handwriting style thing -- it seems odd for JKR to have mentioned it unless it is going to be significant somehow... When Hermione said that about it looking like a girl's handwriting, I immediately thought Eileen Prince, because I thought the book was probably originally hers (it's 50 years old, etc.) and that maybe she had put notes in it. But Lily is a possibility, too! Lab partners are always doodling notes and stuff to pass back and forth in class, so she could've done it in the text also.

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Madame Pomfrey - Oct 5, 2005 6:40 am (#4 of 273)
Edited Oct 5, 2005 7:45 am

I like this thread. I had thought that "awful"boy might refer to Snape also. Harry had asked Dumbledore...’ "how can you be sure Snape is on our side?" Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make his mind up about something. At last he said "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." ‘ This was after he already told Harry that Snape’s involvement with the prophecy was Snape’s greatest regret of his life. I think what Dumbledore did not tell Harry is that Snape had loved his mother. This is one of the reasons why Snape hated James so much and why he hates Harry who looks like him. Jo said that Harry having Lily's eyes is important .I think in book 7 Snape will finally see Lily in Harry through Harry's eyes and sacrifice himself for Harry. I noticed during Occlumency lessons that Snape’s voice would soften, I think this was with eye contact but I can't remember for certain. Anyways, I am one of those in the “Snape loved Lily” camp.

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kaykay1970 - Oct 5, 2005 6:44 am (#5 of 273)
Edited Oct 5, 2005 7:46 am

It could be possible that Lily and Snape were in the Slug Club together, thus forging their friendship.

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Finn BV - Oct 5, 2005 7:16 am (#6 of 273)

Shadow, great ideas! You've tied together some annoying loose ends. Let's see… I agree, Petunia may have heard about the dementors from Snape, but I don't think he was the "awful boy." She would certainly – no matter how much she despised her sister and her love interests – but would certainly be able to tell apart the difference between Snape (the assumed boyfriend) and James (the actual husband). You may have a stretch of a row with your family but you'd definitely know who was married to whom.

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LooneyLuna - Oct 5, 2005 7:47 am (#7 of 273)

I am certain Pet knows the difference between James and Severus. I don't think Pet knew James as a boy, since Lily and James didn't start dating until 7th year. But Pet might have known Severus as a boy (under the age of 15). Lily might have brought Severus home on the holidays. Pure speculation, but would make sense.

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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 5, 2005 8:15 am (#8 of 273)
Edited Oct 5, 2005 10:23 am

There is one other option that I am considering...

Petunia and Snape dated.

That is the love that he knew and all sorts of implications come along with that... I just got goosebumps. I think that's right. It says Harry can easily read the writing and Ron can't. Because Harry grew up reading that writing. Wow. I think we need to start a new thread - Petunia and Severus: what went wrong? Severus and the Evans Sisters 464751818

One major implication is the significance of the book itself.

It may indeed need its own thread eventually but for now it is pertinent to this discussion.

Love in whatever form could be said to be contained in the book.
The 'title' Half Blood Prince is an obvious reference to Harry, Dark Lord, Snape triangulation to be resolved.
Potion notes may be crucial later on.
Harry's experience retrieving book from Room of Requirement crucial later on.

I found it interesting that JKR made a point for Hermione to check if the book was okay, then she says "it seems all right. I mean, it really does seem to be...just a textbook." Foreshadowing?

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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 5, 2005 8:50 am (#9 of 273)

Given what we have seen of Lily's character I can imagine her asking the family to give shelter to Severus, much in the Potters did for Sirius. Although, Petunia could have been bitterly opposed to taking Severus in because, it could possibly have increased her feeling of isolation at home.

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Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Oct 5, 2005 11:36 am (#10 of 273)

OMG Finn, I love your avatar. I love that play and I’m excited about the movie.

I love this thread. I am absolutely in the “Snape has a thing for Lily” camp. The thing about the writing makes a lot of sense. I never thought about it like that.

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RoseMorninStar - Oct 5, 2005 12:54 pm (#11 of 273)

It is interesting that both Lily and James seem to have been excellent students and Harry (except for DADA) seems to be only slightly above average.

I am not sure which 'camp' I am in. I can see that Lily would have perhaps been extra kind to Snape, the way Ginny/Hermionee is to Neville or Luna and considered him a 'friend'. And I have suspected that although the book may have been Snapes, that perhaps he was table partners with Lily and he would copy down in his book the changes that made her so successful at potion-making. I know if I had a gifted table partner that was a wiz at a subject and they were making alterations to the directions to achieve the best results, I would copy the changes down too, much as one does in a recipe.

Was there a 'love' relationship? I don't know. Hard to say. But I do think that when Petunia learned about Azkaban/dementors 'from that awful boy' Lily brought home, I don't think she is referring to James. Snape or Sirius maybe. And she could have just seen it as a friendship or, as someone stated earlier, a holiday break from what sounded like an abusive family life. But it seems a bit odd that Lily would be so close to someone who was 'part of a group of Slytherins that almost all turned out to be death eaters'.

It is interesting to note that the first potion they make is the 'draught of living death'... but it doesn't say too much about what that potion would be used for... hmmm

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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 5, 2005 10:26 am (#12 of 273)
Edited by Denise P. Oct 5, 2005 2:09 pm

Theory about Petunia and Severus

Sprouted from a theory about Lily nicknaming Snape 'half blood prince' -- (theory about Lily and Severus thread).

Petunia and Severus met through Lily and fell in love.
He is 'that awful boy' for heartbreak reasons we can speculate on.
He is part of reason she takes Harry in...
It's her handwriting in book, that's why Ron can't read it but Harry can.

Jackpot or no?

Edit: I moved this into the existing thread already started by you. There is no need to start a new thread for each aspect of a theory concerning the same people. The thread title is broad enough to cover it. Denise P.

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haymoni - Oct 5, 2005 10:26 am (#13 of 273)

It's Pet's handwriting or Lily's?

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Finn BV - Oct 5, 2005 1:27 pm (#14 of 273)

OMG Finn, I love your avatar. I love that play and I’m excited about the movie. –Matilda

LOL, thanks, I wrote that on the Dean thread to you (about your 2nd line of info).

Back on topic: But it seems a bit odd that Lily would be so close to someone who was 'part of a group of Slytherins that almost all turned out to be death eaters'. –RoseMS

I agree. Especially because Lily seems, to me, at least, to be very similar to a Hermione of her day, and for her to go out hanging with Slytherins just seems out of place. It would be logical to presume that Snape made advances on her, and not vice versa, but why would she accept them? Is she that sympathetic that all of the Marauders' teasing would make her want to do anything to be against them? Hmm…

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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 5, 2005 2:22 pm (#15 of 273)

haymoni -- whose writing is it in the book?

At first I thought it was Lily's but then I got hit between the eyes with a troll's club about Snape and Petunia getting together. I don't know why but it feels like a fit.

Lily and Snape would become friends at least due to potions. JKR has said by no means are the entire Slytherins hated by the other three houses. Only a slight few are connected with DE's and she said other hogworts houses are connected with DE's. So I don't think Lily would avoid becoming friends with Snape because he's from a certain house. On the contrary, I think she saw James/Sirius as being more 'evil' to use the term loosely.

So now I’m thinking the writing in the book could be Petunia's. As stated before, it's fishy that Ron can't read the handwriting but Harry has no trouble reading it.

In an interview JKR was asked if Petunia is a Squib.

"Good question. No, she is not, but—[Laughter]. No, she is not a Squib. She is a Muggle, but—[Laughter]. You will have to read the other books. You might have got the impression that there is a little bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will find out what it is. She is not a squib, although that is a very good guess. Oh, I am giving a lot away here. I am being shockingly indiscreet."

Yeah maybe she fights off a DE but the history of her powers is interesting too. I think we'll see a pensieve memory with Petunia and Snape in book 7

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rambkowalczyk - Oct 5, 2005 3:15 pm (#16 of 273)

My guess is that Petunia generally hates the idea of witches and wizards existing. In book one she calls Lily a freak.

I doubt that she would have had any type of a relationship with Snape knowing that he was a wizard. Can you imagine these two unpleasant people sharing a broom ride on a full moon?

On the other hand suppose the Snapes lived in the same town as the Evans and that Petunia knew him first thinking he was an ordinary Muggle? Then when she discovered he was a wizard she felt betrayed and he became that awful boy.

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Derek Robertson - Oct 5, 2005 4:32 pm (#17 of 273)

me and my shadow 813 - If Lily and Snape only fell out with each other the day of the OWL DADA exam, then how could Lily have been writing in his NEWT potions book?

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 5, 2005 4:55 pm (#18 of 273)
Edited Oct 5, 2005 5:58 pm

If Hermione studied NEWT Charms before her OWLs, then Lily and Severus may well have studied NEWT Potions before their OWLs...

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Choices - Oct 5, 2005 5:24 pm (#19 of 273)

I cannot imagine two people any less likely to be "involved" than Muggle, horse-faced, wizard hating Petunia Dursley and Slytherin wizard, sullen, loner Severus Snape. It is just too weird to even contemplate. I can't even imagine him being friends with Lily and she is a witch. He in Slytherin and she in Gryffindor - total opposites. I think he would have totally looked down his hooked nose at her and she at him. If we find out that Severus and Lily had an attraction to each other, I will be greatly shocked. If we find out that Severus and Petunia had an attraction......well, it just ain't going to happen. LOL

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 5, 2005 5:30 pm (#20 of 273)

Godric and Salazar were once friends...

Of course, that was a long time ago...

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LooneyLuna - Oct 5, 2005 5:32 pm (#21 of 273)

I see the Severus/Lily friendship starting on the Hogwart's Express. Severus in a compartment by himself and Lily asking if she can share. Friends before the sorting.

I can also see Severus showing Lily his mom's Newt potions book, while they are studying for their OWLs or before.

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Viola Intonada - Oct 5, 2005 6:06 pm (#22 of 273)
Edited Oct 5, 2005 7:09 pm

I’m delighted to see this thread. This has been the topic that has been on my mind the most since reading HBP.

By the end of HBP, I was convinced that Snape loved Lily. Not that Lily loved Snape, but that Snape loved Lily. I’m not sure that Lily may have even known.

I think that is why Dumbledore was so sure of Snape's loyalty. Snape wanted James out of the way, but when Voldemort killed Lily, that was the end of Snape's loyalty to Voldy.

I don't think that Lily was a wiz at potions. I think that Slughorn thought she was a wiz because Snape would give her hints and help her out in class. Just like Harry, Lily liked being thought of as excellent at potions, therefore never told anyone Snape was helping her. Snape never took credit, and probably made a few well-planned mistakes to make Lily look the best at potions, not himself. (He sacrificed his own reputation to boost hers, trying to win her favor). The handwriting in the book may have been Snape's mother. You would have to make a potion many, many times in order to figure out that you would have to throw a stir in the opposite direction in order to get better results. That is not something you figure out the first time. Maybe Snape was sharing his mother's knowledge with Lily.

Snape loving Lily would certainly explain his hatred for James and Sirius, especially after all of these years. James got the girl and Snape could never forgive him. After first reading the "Snape's Worst Memory", I thought it very petty of Snape to still hate James and Sirius for being bullies. But that was probably the first time that Snape blew it with Lily, and she started showing more attention to James.

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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 5, 2005 6:24 pm (#23 of 273)
Edited Oct 5, 2005 7:32 pm

I definitely don't see a romantic attraction on the part of Lily towards Severus, but a friendship yes I do. I am shifting more toward the writing in the book being Lily's and not Petunia's. Harry could have been able to read the writing easier than Ron because it was his mother's writing and not because he'd necessarily grown up seeing the handwriting (Petunia).

Petunia might not have snogged Snape but I get the sense that she's not the 'wizard hater' many assume her to be. JKR's characters are way too complex to just categorically label her as such, especially one where there's clues of something going on under the surface.

For instance, when Harry tells his aunt and uncle that Vold is back in beginning of O of P, I feel it's a bit of foreshadowing regarding Petunia:

“Aunt Petunia had never in her life looked at him like that before. Her large, pale eyes were not narrowed in dislike or anger, they were wide and fearful. The furious pretense that Aunt Petunia had maintained all Harry's life -- that there was no magic and no other world than the world she inhabited with Uncle Vernon -- seemed to have fallen away.”

(PS - Viola Intonada: I like your theory very much regarding Snape helping Lily. I just can't get around why we are being told that Harry has an easier time reading the handwriting than Ron does. It must be significant...)

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haymoni - Oct 5, 2005 7:05 pm (#24 of 273)

I had put forth the theory earlier that Severus could have been Lily's Neville.

She's a Muggle-born, gets on the train to Hogwarts not knowing anybody. She could have sat in a compartment with a greasy-haired oddball. I’m guessing she was quite cute, even at 11. Maybe she helped him on the train.

They get sorted into separate houses. They make other friends. He's in Slytherin and hears about all the pureblood business. He tries to hide that he is a half-blood.

By the time the "worst memory" rolls around, he's not ready to accept help from his old friend Lily. He calls her a Mudblood, she sees what he has become and turns her back on him.

We may have been led to think that "the worst" was Severus hanging upside down with his underpants showing, but it could be that it is his worst memory because that was where he lost Lily.

It's odd that I’m typing this because I found the "I am a Rock" clip of Snape today. One part of the song indicates a past love or a love that was lost and whomever put this together shows Snape thinking about Lily.

I have no idea where that clip came from but I’m sure if you search the Forum for "I am a Rock", you'll find the link somewhere.

I don't think Snape would have anything to do with horse-faced Petunia if he had even a hint of a shot with Lily.

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Saracene - Oct 5, 2005 10:27 pm (#25 of 273)

I’m fully on the "Snape loved Lily" bandwagon, myself. Although I doubt very much that she returned his feelings back; more likely that she felt sorry for him.

I don't think that Lily scribbled in Snape's Potions book. There's no way IMO that Lily would have written down Sectumsempra - from what we know about her such dark curses are totally out of her character (whereas it suits Snape's vindictive nature perfectly). So it means that if Lily did write something, there would have been two different handwritings in the book - but no such thing is mentioned.

I think it's likely that both Lily and Snape were brilliant at potions. I haven't seen any reason to doubt Snape's abilities; the potion he did for Lupin is described as incredibly complex and something that only a few wizards can make successfully. I thought about the possibility that Lily, much like her son, was benefiting all that time from someone else's knowledge, but I strongly doubt that she could fool Slughorn for -that- long. The reason he goes on so much more about Lily rather than Snape could be simply that Lily was so much more likeable and loveable than Snape and Slughorn did have genuine affection for her, personally.

Slughorn's remark about how he'd seen the "power of the obsessive love" intrigues me too... it may not have been meant as anything significant and I’m just overanalyzing, but little details like that so often turn out to mean -a lot- in these books and I can't help feeling that Harry is going to learn something about his Mum from Slughorn.

Lady Arabella Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:58 pm

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LooneyLuna - Oct 6, 2005 5:26 am (#26 of 273)

Slughorn also made this comment about Lily, "Liked her?" said Slughorn, his eyes brimming with tears once more. "I don't imagine anyone who met her wouldn't have liked her...Very Brave...Very funny....It was a most horrible thing...." (HBP, Chapter 22, After the Burial).

Saracene, I’m also intrigued by Slughorn's comment about the power of obsessive love. I hope we learn if Severus had a Lily obssession.

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T Vrana - Oct 6, 2005 8:24 am (#27 of 273)

viola intonada-

DD testified that Snape returned to the good side before LV's downfall, therefore before Lily was killed.

I do think there was a Lily/Snape connection. Obsessive love or at least friendship and respect (for Lily and her abilities) works for me. 'Specially since Sluggy brought up obsessive love...

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Choices - Oct 6, 2005 8:54 am (#28 of 273)
Edited Oct 6, 2005 9:56 am

Viola - I like your ideas and if I could see a relationship between Lily and Severus, it would be as you depict it in your Post #22.

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Viola Intonada - Oct 6, 2005 11:33 am (#29 of 273)

Thanks Choices!

T Vrana- in the chapter "The Seer Overheard" when Harry is confronting DD about overhearing that Snape was the one who overheard the prophecy DD replies "You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned-"

IMHO, this implies that Snape left Voldy after the Potters murder.

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haymoni - Oct 6, 2005 11:54 am (#30 of 273)

Greatest regret that Voldy went after Harry or greatest regret that Lily was killed????

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T Vrana - Oct 6, 2005 12:35 pm (#31 of 273)
Edited Oct 6, 2005 2:25 pm

viola intonada- DD testified Snape came back before LV's downfall to the Wizengamot.

DD said Snape was distraught once he realized how LV interpreted the prophecy. The interpretation could have come months before LV actually found the Potters.

I have assumed Snape was the one close to LV who warned DD that the Potters movements were being reported to LV. That assumption came from Snape's reaction in the Shrieking Shack in POA, commenting that James was arrogant for not listening to the warning about Black. Sounded to me as though he had a personal interest in that whole event, and James' failure to listen to the warning. Turns out Black was not the LV spy, but Snape didn't know that at the time.

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Viola Intonada - Oct 6, 2005 3:36 pm (#32 of 273)

T Vrana,

Could you please tell me where that is in the books. I don't remember it. (about the Wizengamot)

Thanks

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 6, 2005 3:46 pm (#33 of 273)
Edited Oct 6, 2005 4:48 pm

I’m not T Vrana, but it's during the Pensieve scene in book 4.

DD said Snape was distraught once he realized how LV interpreted the prophecy. The interpretation could have come months before LV actually found the Potters.

It probably did. The prophecy was made before Harry and Neville were born, and Snape probably wasted no time reporting to his master. That gave Snape at least 15 months to tip Dumbledore off as to whom Voldemort would try to kill.

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T Vrana - Oct 6, 2005 4:30 pm (#34 of 273)

Paulus Maximus- I agree.

Viola Intonada, here you go: pages 590-591, hardcover US version of GoF

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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 6, 2005 5:32 pm (#35 of 273)

He was distraught yet he still loathes Harry. Snape will be so pivotal in book 7 because his salvation lies in having to give his allegiance to his 'enemy' - a Potter. I make this statement with the belief that DD's death was staged and Snape will remain a double agent, even if Harry's not aware of it.

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T Vrana - Oct 6, 2005 5:38 pm (#36 of 273)
Edited Oct 6, 2005 6:39 pm

I agree. But I think Snape will also have to realize that Harry is not James, and is more like Lily than he has been willing to admit.

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LooneyLuna - Oct 6, 2005 5:40 pm (#37 of 273)
Edited Oct 6, 2005 6:41 pm

I apologize for changing the subject, but I wanted to examine Snape's Worst Memory and the Tarot Card: The Hanged Man. As we know, James, did a "Levi-corpus" on Severus, putting him in the Hanged Man position.

I found something of interest here:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Under the Hanged Man card description:

When the Hanged Man appears, know that greater wisdom and happiness is at hand, but only if you are prepared to sacrifice something for that wisdom. Sometimes it is something physical you must be deprived of, but in most cases it is a perspective or a viewpoint that must be left behind. For example, a fantasy that you can never fulfill, or a crush on someone who's out of your reach. Inevitably, sacrificing something you value will always lead you to something even more valuable.

Did Severus sacrifice his love of Lily to go deeper into the Dark Arts? Or by calling her a Mudblood publicly, essentially announced his allegiance with that gang of Slytherins that became DEs?

Just thinking out loud.

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Viola Intonada - Oct 6, 2005 6:42 pm (#38 of 273)

Paulus Maximus and T Vrana, thanks for the info. I haven't reread book 4 in a while and had forgotten all about that scene.

(I’m presently on my reread of PoA)

LooneyLuna, so who's side does this mean that Snape is on? Does this mean that he left his crush on Lily behind and has returned whole-heartedly to Voldy?

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wynnleaf - Oct 6, 2005 7:53 pm (#39 of 273)
Edited Oct 6, 2005 8:54 pm

So much fun to find this thread after not quite 2 days mostly gone (did make 1 post).

Anyway, interesting thoughts.

Here's something I noticed today.

Every time Slughorn comments on Harry's ability in potions, he remarks or implies that he got it from Lily. There's only one time that he's going on about Harry's ability and doesn't mention Lily. It's when he drags Severus over at the Christmas party. The only reference he makes towards Harry having innate ability doesn't mention Lily.

Slughorn mentions that of course Snape taught Harry for 5 years. He is going on about how good Harry is and does an "even you, Severus..." kind of remark, implying that even Severus, who was really good at potions, didn't make whatever potion Slughorn was talking about so well the first time around. When Severus says something about he'd never noticed Harry having that much ability in class, Slughorn says something to the effect that Harry's ability must be a natural ability. But what he doesn't do, and yet did every other time he talked about Harry's "talent," was mention Lily.

Suppose Lily and Severus were both in the Slug Club. Slughorn, whatever else we may think of him, is pretty observant of people. If Severus had liked Lily a lot, he may have figured it out. He may have known that mentioning Lily to Severus wouldn't be the thing to do, especially at a party.

Just a thought.

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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 6, 2005 9:03 pm (#40 of 273)
Edited Oct 6, 2005 10:04 pm

LooneyLuna: I like your hanged man theory very much. interesting how Severus 'invented' the spell and then had it used on him in his most humiliating moment... enough to make a man turn his coat?

TVrana: I agree with you and can see Harry's struggle with Snape's holding the key to something in the end being equally hard for him. Ultimately both their past wounds could be healed by the experience.

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T Vrana - Oct 7, 2005 4:08 am (#41 of 273)
Edited Oct 7, 2005 5:18 am

wynnleaf- Interesting catch. It was also Slughorn who mentioned the danger of obsessive love...

me and my shadow- even with past wounds healed, if Snape and Harry survive, the best I see for them is a grudging respect. I don't think they will ever like each other.

I still wonder why JK said LV would have spared Lily. I can't see Snape asking LV for this favor. So why? She was Muggle born, had defied LV three times, why spare her?

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LooneyLuna - Oct 7, 2005 5:11 am (#42 of 273)
Edited Oct 7, 2005 6:12 am

LooneyLuna, so who's side does this mean that Snape is on? Does this mean that he left his crush on Lily behind and has returned whole-heartedly to Voldy? – Viola

Yes and no. I think that after the Snape's Worst Memory incident, Snape turned to the Dark Arts/Dark Side. He then went on to become a DE. That gave him, what, a good 2 or 3 years after school was out to become one of Voldemort's Inner Circle (not sure of the timeline there). I also think that Snape would have stayed with Voldemort if Lily had been spared.

The turning point for Snape was Lily's murder at Voldemort's wand. Although Snape had moved past his crush while in school, he never got over her or he remembered their friendship/his love for her.

So, even though Snape had overheard the whole prophecy and only reported part of it to Voldemort, and Snape had appeared to change sides 1 year before Voldemort's downfall, I don't think he truly became an agent for the Good Side until after Lily's murder. I’m sure he was crushed. In one of the books, doesn't Snape state about how foolish it is to die for another?

Snape, being a true Slytherin, holds his cards close to his chest. He isn't going to give anything away until he knows who is going to win.

Is it tea time at St. Mungos yet?

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haymoni - Oct 7, 2005 5:17 am (#43 of 273)

Did JKR actually say that Voldy would have spared Lily or did she say that Lily didn't have to die - i.e. she didn't have to sacrifice herself?

How do we know that Voldy wouldn't have AK'd Lily after killing Harry?

Someone had suggested that he would have modified Lily's memory so that she would admit to the killings, as he had done with other victims.

Perhaps it had nothing to do with Severus at all.

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T Vrana - Oct 7, 2005 5:22 am (#44 of 273)

Loony- I don't think Snape could have heard the whole prophecy. He was listening at a keyhole when he was caught by Aberforth. Aberforth confronted him, it would have been impossible to remain crouched at the keyhole and hear the prophecy with Aberforth asking him what he was doing. The second half of the prophecy takes less than 20 seconds to say, speaking very slowly. In this time Aberforth would have seen Snape, asked him what he was doing, Snape would have stood up and made his excuses, Aberforth decides to bodily remove him, DD opens the door to see what is going on, Trelwaney comes out of her trance.

Snape arrived at Hogwarts knowing lots of Dark Magic, though I can see that incident pushing him further.

I still trust DD's read, and it would seem he would not take such a young Severus in as a teacher unless he already felt Snape was remorseful and back on the good side. Just knowing LV was going after Lily, and he, Snape, was powerless to stop him, may have been enough for the regret and the return to the only wizard LV ever feared, DD.

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wynnleaf - Oct 7, 2005 5:28 am (#45 of 273)

In one of the books, doesn't Snape state about how foolish it is to die for another?

I may be wrong, but I don't think Severus ever said this. It doesn't make much sense, does it -- particularly in light of his willingness to take on the unbreakable vow to protect Draco? Aside from the last part of the vow which he may not have known was coming, it seems clear that Severus was at least willing to put his life on the line to protect Draco.

And then there's all that spying for years that's pretty life threatening -- I guess it could all be for revenge, but revenge for something that happened to Severus? or to Lily?

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LooneyLuna - Oct 7, 2005 5:31 am (#46 of 273)

Haymoni - Lily was given a choice and she chose to die. James was going to be murdered anyway.

From Quick Quotes 2005 Emerson/Melissa Interview (towards the end):

“You would instinctively rush them. But if in cold blood you were told, ‘Get out of the way,’ " you know, what would you do? I mean, I don't think any mother would stand aside from their child. But does that answer it? She did very consciously lay down her life. She had a clear choice."

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The implication is that Voldemort would not have killed her if she had stepped aside.

T-Varana - I am a firm believer that Snape heard the ENTIRE prophecy. Only because Trelawny "woke-up" to find him standing there with Aberforth. I doubt that she would have woken up mid-prophecy and then gone back into trance again once things were quiet. Dumbledore's memory of the prophecy is intact as well. No interruptions.

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T Vrana - Oct 7, 2005 5:44 am (#47 of 273)

Loony- There was no interruption and Trelwaney didn't wake up in the middle, she came out of her trance at the end.

Snape was listening at a keyhole. This would require him to be stooped with his ear pressed to the door. Aberforth would have entered the hallway and noticed this odd position and confronted Snape. "Hey..what are you doing?" End of Snape hearing prophecy. Snape straightens and begins to explain he's looking for DD blah, blah, blah... Aberforth doesn't buy it and approaches Snape to remove him, Snape protests. The second half of the prophecy is over. DD hears the commotion and opens the door, Trelwaney is coming out of her trance.

Why would Snape only tell LV part of the prophecy?

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haymoni - Oct 7, 2005 5:47 am (#48 of 273)

I’m clear on what Lily did, but it is Voldy's motives that I’m wondering about.

Was he willing to spare her because he wanted to use her or was he willing to spare her because Severus asked him to or does Voldy have a thing for mothers in general?

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wynnleaf - Oct 7, 2005 5:52 am (#49 of 273)
Edited Oct 7, 2005 6:57 am

Let's assume Trelawney went through the whole prophecy in a trance (no waking up in between), and woke up to find the door opening and Aberforth with Severus at the door. Okay -- think about it. Work backwards from that point. Aberforth didn't discover Severus, confront him, and open the door all in one split second did he? I mean, that had to take at least maybe 15-30 seconds? Aberforth comes up the stairs and sees Severus listening at the door. Severus has heard about half the prophecy. Then (start counting the seconds) "hey you, what are you doing?" Severus can no longer listen at the door because Aberforth is striding up to him, accusing him. Severus looks up. Aberforth continues, "Get away from there!" Maybe Severus tries to escape. Aberforth grabs him. "Oh no you don't. Dumbledore's going to learn about this!" By this time, Trelawney's finished the prophecy and Severus missed all the last part. Aberforth opens the door as Trelawney is coming out of her trance.

Okay, now the other way. Severus is listening at the door to Trelawney's prophecy. He's hearing the prophecy. The prophecy ends and he's heard the whole thing. Aberforth comes up the stairs. "hey, what are you up to?" "I’m just waiting for DD" "No you're listening at the door!" They argue. "DD's going to hear about this!" Aberforth grabs Severus, maybe he tries to get away, and Aberforth opens the door. How long did that take? A split second?? If Severus heard the whole prophecy, then got confronted by Aberforth, and then they opened the door, then Trelawney was just hanging around for a good half a minute after her trance was over.

Hmmm. Last scenario. Severus is listening to the prophecy and Aberforth comes up the stairs. Regardless of what accusations Aberforth is making, Severus keeps his ear glued to the door and keeps listening. Aberforth doesn't try to stop him or anything until the prophecy is over (so Alberforth just watches Severus for 20 seconds or so while Severus keeps eavesdropping?? -- naw!).

See the problem? If Aberforth confronted Severus, when did it happen? It certainly didn't all happen in a split second.

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LooneyLuna - Oct 7, 2005 6:22 am (#50 of 273)

I understand what you're saying, wynnleaf. This question can only be answered by JKR. We have to agree to disagree.

Back to Lily. I think Voldemort asked Lily to step aside because Snape asked him to spare her (possibly saying Lily is just a silly girl). IRonically, this choice made it possible for Harry to survive the AK. If Voldemort had outright killed Lily, Harry would have died as well.

Lady Arabella Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:01 pm

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T Vrana - Oct 7, 2005 6:27 am (#51 of 273)

Looney- Well, all this can only be answered by JK, but since we have 2 years...

I’m still curious, why do you think Snape would only tell LV half the prophecy?

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wynnleaf - Oct 7, 2005 6:34 am (#52 of 273)
Edited Oct 7, 2005 7:35 am

Looney, let me re-phrase briefly...

Several posters have theorized that the reason Severus didn't hear the whole prophecy, yet Trelawney saw him at the door, was because of the altercation with Aberforth.

But what I’m saying is to look at it the other way around. When Trelawney "woke up" out of her trance and saw Severus at the door with Aberforth, there is no way Severus could have heard the last part of the prophecy, unless Aberforth the confrontation with Aberforth did not actually take place.

If Severus heard the entire prophecy, how would you explain the Aberforth confrontation? That is, when did it occur?

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LooneyLuna - Oct 7, 2005 6:44 am (#53 of 273)
Edited Oct 7, 2005 7:47 am

Really, it's not for this thread, but I think that Snape wanted to be a Dark Lord. To me, Snape would have waited for Voldemort to destroy himself, or be destroyed by someone else, and then Snape would have been in a position to take over. He is an even better Occlumens and Leglimens than Voldemort. I think that Snape wanted the recognition, and the power of Voldemort to be his.

But, his love for Lily and her subsequent murder, changed all that.

Wynnleaf - I think it did happen in a split second. Snape listening so intently that he doesn't hear Aberforth. Aberforth grasping Snape's arm, the door opening and Trelawny out of her trance. Surprised looks all around. Even if there were a few seconds of scuffle, the prophecy had started to repeat itself, so Snape would have heard up until the last part.

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T Vrana - Oct 7, 2005 6:56 am (#54 of 273)
Edited Oct 7, 2005 8:03 am

Hmmm..big goal for a 19 year old. Snape still fears LV now, in his 40's (won't say his name, grabs his arm and is uncomfortable talking about him with Harry during Occlumency lessons).

I’m not sure how Severus immediately after hearing the prophecy could have deduced that holding back part 2 would lead to LV's downfall. Holding back the entire prophecy would seem more likely to bring about LV's downfall. By giving LV part 1, LV tried to kill Harry before Harry became a threat. There was no way to know that the attempt to kill the baby in question (at that time unknown) would lead to LV's downfall. But if Snape wanted LV gone, seems that he would have kept the prophecy quiet so the baby in question had a chance to grow and become a real threat.

But I agree Lily had an effect on Snape, and her eyes still will.

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Honour - Oct 7, 2005 6:59 am (#55 of 273)

Back to Lily. I think Voldemort asked Lily to step aside because Snape asked him to spare her... -LooneyLuna

In order for this statement to make sense for me, the relationship between Severus and Voldemort would have to be a close one, and as we all know, Voldemort does not care for relationships, actually Voldemort doesn't care full-stop! Back then Severus was just a spy, (actually, less than that he was a nark), and I would think he was probably a junior ranking DE too, especially compared to Bella, her husband and probably even Lucius, so I don't think at the time of the Potter's murders Severus would have held much sway with Voldemort to be able to ask for favours ... I think Lily's reaction to Voldemort is probably the reason that he gave her the choice to stand aside, she was probably defiant! She was probably the first person to be this way in his presence ... and I think her reaction made him curious, I can see him thinking - based on his experience (or lack thereof) with his own mother - I think he wanted to see what her choice would be .... Merope didn't love baby Tom enough to live for him ... I don't think Voldemort expected Lily to love her son enough to die for him ... but I bet you Dumbledore did ...

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 7, 2005 8:01 am (#56 of 273)
Edited Oct 7, 2005 9:01 am

I have another problem with Severus having heard the whole prophecy. Why would Dumbledore lie to Harry about how many people knew the whole prophecy?

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Choices - Oct 7, 2005 10:03 am (#57 of 273)

Honour - "Back then Severus was just a spy, (actually, less than that he was a nark)"

Severus was a narcotics officer???

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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 7, 2005 10:44 am (#58 of 273)

Paulus Maximus - good point regarding why would DD lie to Harry about just the two of them knowing the entire prophecy.

This is changing the topic, but what are people's thoughts on the concept of Lily's handwriting being in Snape's book and what that could imply about the book's significance. (her 'energy' in book, spells/potions created by Lily and Severus, etc...) Once again, just thinking out loud.

It seems like it will be a big deal when Harry retrieves book in room of requirement.

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T Vrana - Oct 7, 2005 11:30 am (#59 of 273)

I think the writing is either Snape's or Snape's mom. In OotP, Snape's handwriting is described as miniscule and cramped. The writing in HBP's book is described as small and cramped. Seems pretty close....

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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 7, 2005 11:49 am (#60 of 273)

TVrana - yes I remember your post on that and I agree the descriptions are close. However, I can't seem to get past a few points, and I’m sorry I’m also repeating myself...

- although Hermione does eventually believe that the "girl" handwriting was Snape's mother, her conversation with Harry there is interesting (white tomb chapter):

Shouldn't have left his old book in the bottom of that cupboard, should he?

But why didn't he turn you in?

I don't think he wanted to associate himself with that book...And even if Snape pretended it hadn't been his, Slughorn would have recognized his writing at once.

What if Snape knew Slughorn would recognize Lily's handwriting at once? I suppose you've got to believe in the theory that Snape was in love with Lily to believe this possibility...

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wynnleaf - Oct 7, 2005 12:10 pm (#61 of 273)
Edited Oct 7, 2005 1:12 pm

I don't think it was Lily's handwriting.

1. Harry would notice if there were 2 different handwritings in the book, so all the notes were written by one person.

2. Severus clearly calls himself the HBP. He also clearly states that the levicorpus and Sectumsempra spells are his own inventions.

Therefore, the notes regarding Levicorpus and Sectumsempra are notes about Severus' own inventions. The HBP title is his own title, therefore written by him. That means, if it's all the same handwriting, that he wrote all the rest of the notes in the book.

The only way the writing could be Lily's is if

1. She wrote all of the notes in a book that belonged to Severus, including putting his nickname in it. What, he wouldn't have written any of the notes himself? If she wrote in the book, wouldn't we see 2 sets of handwriting in it?

2. She wrote the Sectumsempra curse in the potions book. I really don't think she would have done that!

Another objection is that the handwriting is described very similarly to Severus' handwriting elsewhere.

That doesn't mean that she and Severus didn't collaborate some on creating potions, or perhaps even spells.

I noted on another thread that the Draught to produce Euphoria had a lot of modifications to it. And it included ingredients to counteract the more outwardly obvious manifestations of the potion. That sounds to me like somebody worked on that potion who actually planned to use it, rather than just as an academic exercise. I can't see why Lily would want such a potion, but I could see Severus maybe doing that.

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haymoni - Oct 7, 2005 12:24 pm (#62 of 273)

I wonder if Snape is a Parselmouth?

Could he have somehow written his notes in Parseltongue so that Harry can read them but Ron can't?

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Choices - Oct 7, 2005 1:39 pm (#63 of 273)
Edited Oct 7, 2005 2:46 pm

Is Parseltongue a written language or just a spoken language? Wish we knew more about it. Since it is snake language and snakes have no hands, I would venture to guess that it is not a written language. I would think it is based on sounds rather than on letters.

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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 7, 2005 1:45 pm (#64 of 273)

Haymoni - interesting concept. but maybe I’m just making more out of that bit of info than need be. Everyone's ideas about Lily not writing in the book is valid and I accept it for now. I do still think it was she who dubbed him Half-Blood Prince.

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haymoni - Oct 7, 2005 2:47 pm (#65 of 273)

Choices - I’m sure you are correct.

I just can't figure out why Harry could read the handwriting and Ron could not.

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Viola Intonada - Oct 7, 2005 3:41 pm (#66 of 273)

I just had a random thought cross my mind. What if the reason that Harry could read the handwriting and Ron could not was because of what Voldy had imparted onto Harry, ie, parselmouth. Voldy would have had experience reading Snape's handwriting, it could just be one more little nuance of his "scar".

I still believe that it is Snape's and his mother's handwriting in the book. I think that their handwriting probably looks very similar. (I write just like my mom's)

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Honour - Oct 7, 2005 4:06 pm (#67 of 273)

Honour, Snape was a narcotics officers? – Choices

Oh my gosh! I had forgotten that this forum is World Wide and certain words would mean something else to some else from a different background to me. In New Zealand a narc is someone who spies on others and passes on information, trying to think of a term which doesn't sound too derogatory er... "stool pidgeon", I’m surely showing my age with that one ... Oh Choices, I laughed out loud with that one hee hee hee ....

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T Vrana - Oct 7, 2005 4:12 pm (#68 of 273)
Edited Oct 7, 2005 5:13 pm

Viola Intonada et al- I've looked and can't find any mention that Ron could not read the HBP's book. Where is this? :-)

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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 7, 2005 4:48 pm (#69 of 273)
Edited Oct 7, 2005 5:57 pm

TVrana - handwriting reference is first paragraph of 'House of Gaunt' chapter. It's subtle but JKR has used subtler clues for sure.

wynnleaf - do you feel Lily is above such spells as Levicorpus and Sectumsempra? I honor your opinion, but here's a few facts:

1. Slughorn to Tom Riddle in 'Horcruxes' chapter: "Wizards of a certain caliber have always been drawn to that aspect of magic."

2. Harry was "itching to try it out" (Sectumsempra! for enemies) but Hermione's wrath kept him back. He was even going to use a spell for enemies on McLaggen, not exactly a threatening person.

3. When Harry did use it and Hermione chided him in 'Sectumsempra' chapter, Ginny says "by the sound of it Malfoy was trying to use an Unforgivable Curse, you should be glad Harry had something good up his sleeve."

So my point, being that I can't let it go, is that Lily could have written those spells in the book. Heck, it could have been her book entirely, written some spells he recommended for defensive magic. Maybe she gave the book to Snape, putting his nickname on the back cover. I’m just babbling here but Snape never said “it's my book.” He said "I invented those spells" and "I am the Half Blood Prince".

I guess the more obvious answer to the quotes above is that JKR is just setting us up to realize how Snape isn't a 'baddie'.

PS- this is off topic but can anyone direct me to where a thread would be about Snape's life debt to James?

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T Vrana - Oct 7, 2005 4:59 pm (#70 of 273)

me & my shadow- Thanks. Hmmm...intriguing that Ron has a tougher time deciphering the notes..

I still have a tough time getting past miniscule and cramped (Snape's OWLS writing) and small and cramped (HBP). Snape or mom, or JK is pulling a fast one.

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Madame Pomfrey - Oct 7, 2005 5:39 pm (#71 of 273)
Edited Oct 7, 2005 6:54 pm

Regardless of who wrote in the book, one thing I feel is certain is that Snape and Lily shared that book. Lily must have told James about Levicorpus and then he used it on Snape in the pensieve scene. Snape even made a reference to it in HBP "And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you?"

Every time Slughorn comments on Harry's ability in potions, he remarks or implies that he got it from Lily. There's only one time that he's going on about Harry's ability and doesn't mention Lily. It's when he drags Severus over at the Christmas party. The only reference he makes towards Harry having innate ability doesn't mention Lily.-wynnleaf

Good catch, Wynnleaf! That makes me wonder if perhaps Slughorn knew of Snape’s love for Lily and didn't want to mention her in front of him. I think Snape loved Lily but she didn't return the feeling. She chose James. Probably the main reason Snape hates him so much.

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T Vrana - Oct 7, 2005 5:55 pm (#72 of 273)

If they shared the book, it was pre- OWLS, because James use of it was OWLS year. The HBP book was a 6th year book. Does that make the writing in HBP's book Mama Snape's? Or did Snape just jot it down every year?

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Madame Pomfrey - Oct 7, 2005 6:00 pm (#73 of 273)
Edited Oct 7, 2005 7:02 pm

Well..The book is 50 yrs old, Right? I would say that it was originally Mama Snape’s and handed down to him. Snape’s writing though. I totally forgot about James using Levicorpus his OWL year.I'll have to rethink this.

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T Vrana - Oct 7, 2005 6:30 pm (#74 of 273)
Edited Oct 7, 2005 7:31 pm

This, of course, ties in with the Mama Snape, Irma Pince, I’m a Prince thread... Severus and the Evans Sisters 2281877974

Severus and the Evans Sisters 2281877974

Madam Pince loses it when she sees the book, and, presumably, the writing. If she is Mama Snape, it isn't her writing...

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wynnleaf - Oct 7, 2005 7:27 pm (#75 of 273)

Well..The book is 50 yrs old, Right? I would say that it was originally Mama Snape’s and handed down to him. Snape’s writing though. I totally forgot about James using Levicorpus his OWL year. I'll have to rethink this.

Well, he could have had the book long before his 6th year and could have been writing in it for several years.

Lady Arabella Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:18 pm

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Madame Pomfrey - Oct 8, 2005 6:35 am (#76 of 273)

That is true. The book being 50 yrs old, it could have been Tom Riddle’s for all we know, except Dumbledore said he didn't want Tom's old school things finding their way back into the school. Or was that just in the movie?

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deletedaccount - Oct 8, 2005 7:21 am (#77 of 273)

When did Madam Pince see the HBP book?

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Choices - Oct 8, 2005 8:54 am (#78 of 273)
Edited Oct 8, 2005 9:55 am

Well, if James used Levicorpus on Snape in their fifth - OWL - year and James and Lily didn't even like each other until sometime in their sixth year, then it hardly seems likely that she would have shared with James in fifth year about the spell Snape created.

Madam Pince saw the book when Hermione and Harry were in the library and she got all upset thinking Harry had written in one of her precious books. Harry assured her it was his personal book and left the library hurriedly.

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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 8, 2005 9:28 am (#79 of 273)

Hi TVrana - Regarding which year it was... someone mentioned that both Snape and Lily could have been doing advanced potions in fifth year similar to Hermione's advanced schedule. I don't know if this is feasible.

I can't remember who posted about Lily actually not being great at potions and Snape (out of his affection for her) letting her copy off of him. I thought it was an interesting theory, especially since Slughorn keeps harping about it...almost too much to only be significant to Harry's 'cheating'. It would be a good twist in Harry's finding out his mother wasn't a saint, similar to how he was disillusioned about his father's behavior in pensieve scene.

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T Vrana - Oct 8, 2005 9:52 am (#80 of 273)

m&m shadow- Hermione took extra classes, not really advanced classes. We haven't seen an example of years mixing, so I’m not sure about that one.

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wynnleaf - Oct 8, 2005 10:11 am (#81 of 273)
Edited Oct 8, 2005 11:12 am

Assume the Marauders were right about Severus coming to Hogwarts already knowing a lot of Dark Magic.

That means he also probably knew a lot of regular acceptable magic, too.

Where'd he learn it? If we assume that he had the potions book as a second hand one from his mom, then I'd guess that many of his books were his mom's second hand books. He may have been reading upper level books for years. After all, he was a pretty smart kid and was obviously quite curious about learning more, beyond the limits of whatever was being taught at Hogwarts. So I'd guess that he often delved into books of magic beyond his school level. And with his mom's books at home, he could do this over summers, too.

Point is, I'd guess he was using the potions book, and perhaps others, well before 6th year. And he likely developed some of those spells earlier than 6th year. It's clear he was using the book for a lot more than just doing homework, after all.

By the way, I don't think the potions book would have been Tom Riddle's. Tom probably got all of his books second hand. If the potions book had been Tom's, it would have been new when Tom was using it.

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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 9, 2005 2:20 pm (#82 of 273)

TVrana - regarding the question of being in their sixth year, it seems fishy to me that if Snape wrote all that stuff in HBP book in sixth year then why would he write Levicorpus and Sectumsempra in it if he'd already invented them in his fifth year (they are both used in O of P 'Worst Memory' chapter). I’m getting sooo confused...

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haymoni - Oct 9, 2005 2:40 pm (#83 of 273)

I could see Snape as a Hermione of sorts. He's studying, reading ahead. He probably was an insufferable know-it-all himself.

Takes one to know one!!!!

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hawick girl - Oct 9, 2005 10:19 pm (#84 of 273)

Assuming some sort of relationship between Lily and Snape:

Remember that it was he, Snape, that gave the heads up to Voldie about the prophecy and wouldn’t you give a treat to a good dog on a job well done?

What if when Snape realizes that Lily is the intended victim, he turns in to a double agent (his greatest regret), and he is told that he should (but probably would any way) ask for Lily to be spared making the whole sacrifice possible and giving Harry protection.

On another thread someone was saying that JKR said that there was no charm when Lily sacrificed, only 'ancient magic.' Could DD have thought of this knowing Snape's past crush, Lily's love, and Voldie's reward system to set up this 'last resort' defense of thw WW.

It is possible that Snape provided the protection by making Lily’s death a choice and not 'a matter of course'. How Irritated was Snape that James' son would benefit from his request?

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Saracene - Oct 9, 2005 11:34 pm (#85 of 273)
Edited Oct 10, 2005 12:36 am

I've seen the suggestion that LV offered Lily a chance to live because of Snape many times. My main problem with it is that I can't see LV doing -anything- on anyone's request. And I can't really think of how Snape could have convinced LV that it's worth sparing Lily either. I mean, it's pretty implausible that she would, say, agree to work for LV or anything after he killed her child.

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wynnleaf - Oct 10, 2005 6:41 am (#86 of 273)
Edited Oct 10, 2005 7:42 am

Since we know he did offer her a choice, we're left with only a few options.

1. He offered her a choice because she could be of some use to him alive.

This has been discussed in some other threads and keeps getting the objection that since Lily clearly wouldn't become a DE, and with so many other deaths to his name, there wasn't much reason for LV to try to blame these deaths on Lily.

2. He offered her a choice because of something to do with his own mother's choice.

This is a possibility. Did he actually want her to fail the test and not be willing to do anything possible for her child? Like Merope?

3. He offered her a choice because he was concerned her death might be counterproductive.

Since he had no idea about the way her death would protect Harry, I can't see anything else he might have been concerned about.

4. He offered her a choice because of someone else's reasons -- therefore at someone else's request.

Would LV do anything at someone else's request? Probably not. Would he make a bargain with someone else? Or do a "favor" (according to his estimation) for someone else? Hm. Maybe. He acted like he was doing Pettigrew a favor by creating the arm for him.

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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 10, 2005 7:17 am (#87 of 273)
Edited Oct 10, 2005 8:19 am

1. He offered her a choice because she could be of some use to him alive.

This has been discussed in some other threads and keeps getting the objection that since Lily clearly wouldn't become a DE, and with so many other deaths to his name, there wasn't much reason for LV to try to blame these deaths on Lily.

Another option is that by keeping Lily alive, Voldemort could alter her memory so she would claim that Sirius was the secret keeper, and he may have been able to save the position of his spy.

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 10, 2005 7:49 am (#88 of 273)
Edited Oct 10, 2005 8:49 am

2. He offered her a choice because of something to do with his own mother's choice.

This is a possibility. Did he actually want her to fail the test and not be willing to do anything possible for her child? Like Merope.

I think that's a possibility too. Love is a foreign idea to Voldemort, so the idea of a mother sacrificing her life to save her child is equally foreign to him. All he knows is that his own mother had a choice to live (and raise him) or die (and abandon him), so maybe he thought that Lily was abandoning her son by choosing to die.

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Soul Search - Oct 10, 2005 7:52 am (#89 of 273)

Mrs Brisbee -- I think it goes further than that. We have evidence that Voldemort arranged to blame someone else for the deaths he used to create horcruxes. He was planning to create his sixth horcrux with Harry's death.

Lily would have been perfect for planting memories that someone else had killed James and Harry. My first choice would be Snape. Everyone that knew them would easily believe that Snape had killed James.

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T Vrana - Oct 10, 2005 8:13 am (#90 of 273)

If LV needed Lily for his own purposes, he could have stunned her, rather than AK her. I think it is more likely she did something to change his mind, or LV had agreed to spare her for someone else, but then he got annoyed and killed her anyway.

Just a thought...

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wynnleaf - Oct 10, 2005 8:15 am (#91 of 273)
Edited Oct 10, 2005 9:15 am

Soul Search,

I don't think LV blaming those earlier deaths on other individuals was because he was making a horcrux using their murders. Therefore, I don't think his plan to use Harry's death for a horcrux would make him want to blame those deaths on others. I think the earlier murders were committed before LV had a reputation as a Dark Wizard and murderer. At that time, he was still trying to operate in the regular WW, and not be a wanted murderer.

Further, while Severus would make an excellent candidate if LV were trying to blame the murders on someone, I don't see the point. Why loose one of your spies to take the blame of murders off of yourself, when you're already wanted for numerous murders as it is?

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 10, 2005 8:18 am (#92 of 273)
Edited Oct 10, 2005 9:19 am

Voldemort might have modified Lily's memory to make her think that SHE had killed Harry...

Or maybe he wouldn't have needed to...

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hawick girl - Oct 10, 2005 11:08 am (#93 of 273)

Remember that it was he, Snape, that gave the heads up to Voldie about the prophecy and wouldn’t you give a treat to a good dog on a job well done?

I thought that it was something like 'I can't promise anything, but I will try,' type of thing.

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RoseMorninStar - Oct 10, 2005 11:57 am (#94 of 273)
Edited Oct 10, 2005 1:00 pm

JKR has never mentioned what James & Lily's occupations were. She has said that there is some very important information we will learn about Lily in book 7.

Then, there is this bit from an interview:

Question: “Now, can I ask you: are there any special wizarding powers in your world that depend on the wizard using their eyes to do something? Bit like ...” JKR: “Why do you want to know this?” Question: “I just vaguely wondered.” JKR: “Why?” Question: “Well because everyone always goes on about how Harry's got Lily Potter's eyes.” JKR: “Aren’t you smart? There is something, maybe, coming about that. I’m going to say no more, very clever.”

I have a feeling Lily was quite a special witch. I don't know how..but it must have something to do with her eyes (and, whatever it is, I wonder, can Harry do it too?). I also think that Lily may have worked at the department of mysteries and Voldemort thought her information and knowledge might be useful and that is why he would have spared her. I cannot imagine Snape asking a 'favor' from Voldemort, and I cannot imagine him granting a favor either. He would see that as a weakness and would have been more likely to kill Lily I would think.

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Amilia Smith - Oct 10, 2005 5:18 pm (#95 of 273)

My personal take on why Voldemort was willing to let Lily live: I think Voldemort is more concerned with his image as Most Evil Wizard of the Century than he is with superfluous murders. Not that he has any qualms about superfluous murders. . . . But when he has a chance to leave a witness that He Himself, not just one of his nameless, faceless Death Eaters, is killing babies and leaving their mothers widowed, that's great PR in the Most Evil department. Nothing gets people more riled than the thought of killing babies. Witness the WWI propaganda.

So I think that Voldemort was willing to let Lily live not so that he could disguise the truth, but so that he could trumpet it.

Speaking of which, how did the story about what happened that night get out anyway?

Mills, who just realized that this post has nothing to do with a Lily/Snape/Petunia relationship.

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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 11, 2005 7:25 am (#96 of 273)

Rose Morning Star - Yes I was wondering whether eventually a wizard's eyes replace their wands to direct spells.

It seems eventually true magic should be done without 'props'. Similar to how spells eventually become nonverbalized, it becomes an internal power.

Perhaps Lily was exceptionally gifted and it was passed to Harry.

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Choices - Oct 11, 2005 8:29 am (#97 of 273)

I don't think anything ever really replaces a wand. Some spells can be done non-verbally and sans wand, but remember that we still see Dumbledore and Voldemort - two very powerful and accomplished wizards - still using their wands.

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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 11, 2005 9:12 am (#98 of 273)
Edited Oct 11, 2005 10:12 am

I guess I was thinking along the lines of Harry surpassing all other wizards in the end. But perhaps the eyes have more to do with the old saying they're the "windows to the soul"...

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timrew - Oct 11, 2005 1:59 pm (#99 of 273)

Amilia Smith:- I think Voldemort is more concerned with his image as Most Evil Wizard of the Century than he is with superfluous murders.

I can see him now, at the "Most Evil Wizard Of the Century" Awards..............

“I would like to thank all my Death Eaters, my agent, my gorgeous wife, Dolores, my house-elf, and anybody else that knows me for this award. And I thank you all, my public, for it. Thank you, thank you, thank you..............”

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hawick girl - Oct 11, 2005 7:34 pm (#100 of 273)
Edited Oct 11, 2005 8:36 pm

“...and to those of you who have been against me, all I say is, "You're Next" and "I'll win next year too so start running now". Goodnight to all and don't forget to tip your waitresses on your way out.”

LOL!

Lady Arabella Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:19 pm

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Madame Pomfrey - Oct 12, 2005 10:38 am (#101 of 273)

LOL Tim....”And thanks most of all to Cornelius Fudge for not alerting my presence to the Wizarding world and helping to make this award possible.”

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zelmia - Oct 12, 2005 4:31 pm (#102 of 273)
Edited Oct 12, 2005 5:34 pm

Well, I have to say, I am not convinced of anything - platonic, romantic or scholarly - going on between Snape and Lily.
(1) The "Levicorpus" spell that he jotted in his text, for example. Why assume he learned this during the "worst memory"? Why wouldn't he be able to figure out how to combine the roots of levi - (raise, levitate) and "corpus" (body)? If Hermione can "move tree (mobiliarbus)" as a Third Year, surely Snape, who later became a teacher, could work out a similar spell. Ditto the boys who were, at that very moment, working in secret to become Animagi.

(2) Ron and the handwriting. I don't recall this being such an issue in the book. Still, I don't think it really proves anything, other than that Ron doesn't have much interest in the handwriting in the first place. And why should he? He's got Harry there to interpret for him and share whatever secrets the handwriting can give him.

(3) I find the suggestion that Snape came over to Lily and Petunia's at any point during their stints at Hogwarts extremely unlikely. Snape was a loner, with a few older acquaintances who shared his interests in the Dark Arts and Voldemort's preaching. Even assuming Lily did ever extend an invitation to him, I would have to see it in the text before I would believe he would ever have accepted it.

By the way: "Narc" is indeed a reference to a Narcotics Officer. Historically these police officers worked deep undercover in their attempts to get close to the source of the narcotics distribution.

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wynnleaf - Oct 12, 2005 5:11 pm (#103 of 273)
Edited Oct 12, 2005 6:14 pm

Zelmia,

I agree with you on points 1 and 2. As regards #3, well Petunia was obviously talking about somebody when she referred to "that dreadful boy." For various reasons, it seems a strange way to refer to James, instead of "your father," For one thing, Lily and James didn’t even start dating until 6th or 7th year, so if he came to visit Lily it wouldn’t be until he was around 17 – just doesn’t sound quite right for “that dreadful boy.”

Of course, Petunia could have been referring to Sirius, who as James friend could also have visited. Still, he likely wouldn’t have visited until after James had been there, so that would put him around 17 or older if he ever visited the Evan’s house.

Could we really think of James and Sirius talking about Dementors on a visit to the Evan’s house? Well – maybe.

On the other hand, if it wasn’t one of them, who was it? The idea that Lily and Severus were friends isn’t all that weird. Lily wouldn’t have let being from a different house affect her. If Severus weren’t quite so “Dark” earlier on, but just mainly a nerdy, loner type, highly intelligent kid – well, they might have got to know each other. One thing we know. They were both really, really good at potions. A link? Maybe.

Other clues 1. Severus never says anything bad about Lily, or even remotely mentions her, even though he has loads to say about James. 2. The Potters deaths is Severus’ greatest regret, but he hated James -- so what does he regret? 3. Slughorn talks about Lily whenever he mentions Harry’s potions talent except when he talks about Harry’s talent to Severus. 4. They both were great at potions. 5. Severus resented her help in the pensieve scene – why? It’s not because she’s muggle-born, because he’s half muggle-born. So why did he react to her comment?

In other words, Severus' lack of comments about Lily, Slughorn’s lack of Lily-comments around Severus, his reaction to her in the pensieve scene, and the question of why the Potter's deaths were the greatest regret of his life. Yes, that does hint of a connection between him and Lily. No, it’s not evidence, but it can be considered hints. Or at least, a set of circumstances are set up which each alone is nothing of interest, but all together (when we know that the author plans practically everything) seem hardly circumstantial.

Last, “narc.” I believe that someone said that “narc” in New Zealand has a broader meaning than the term “narc,” in the USA. Of course, for all I know you’re from New Zealand, too.

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 12, 2005 5:40 pm (#104 of 273)
Edited Oct 12, 2005 6:42 pm

Why assume he learned this during the "Worst Memory"?

Is anyone assuming that? Lupin said that everyone was using Levicorpus during his fifth year, and James only used it on Snape at the end of that year. If Snape did not invent the spell himself, he could have learned it months before his worst memory.

Besides, Snape hates it when people use his own spells against him. Levicorpus being a spell of his own invention might make that memory his worst.

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Choices - Oct 12, 2005 6:39 pm (#105 of 273)

Petunia has such a horrible attitude about Lily and so looks down on her for her unusual proclivities toward magic. It just seems natural to me that if Lily met and fell in love with someone like her - "strange and abnormal" in Petunia's opinion, then I think Petunia referring to James as "that horrible boy" is exactly what her response would be to him coming to see Lily and spending time at the house. I think Petunia was just flat out jealous and sought to put down Lily and James every chance she got.

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wynnleaf - Oct 12, 2005 6:47 pm (#106 of 273)
Edited Oct 12, 2005 7:50 pm

Is anyone assuming that? Lupin said that everyone was using Levicorpus during his fifth year, and James only used it on Snape at the end of that year. If Snape did not invent the spell himself, he could have learned it months before his worst memory.

As the inventor of the spell, Severus could have invented it at practically any time before his 6th year. The question of why he wrote it in the 6th year Potions Book, when we know the spell existed prior to that, can easily be answered by the fact that unlike a person who bought his books new at the start of 6th year, Severus probably used 2nd-hand books of his mother's, and therefore had them around the house all his life. So he could have invented the spell long before 6th or even 5th year, and written it in the 6th year potions book because that's what he was reading at the time.

Snape hates it when people use his own spells against him. Levicorpus being a spell of his own invention might make that memory his worst.

I agree that James' using a spell of Severus' invention would certainly make the memory worse. But I wouldn't say that in general he hates people using his own spells against him. We really only have the examples of James and later Harry doing that. Because he hated James anyway, and later -- apparently -- Harry, their using his own spells against him would be particularly provoking.

Edit: Choices, we were cross posting. What I mainly meant by it being strange to use "that dreadful boy" regarding James, would be 1. he wasn't really a boy when she met him, but a young man and 2. it doesn't seem like the kind of thing James might have been telling Lily about on a visit to the Evan's house and 3. (just thought of this), there'd be no reason to tell Lily about Dementors by the time James got to know her, since by then she'd have been in the WW long enough to have learned a good deal about them.

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hawick girl - Oct 12, 2005 6:49 pm (#107 of 273)

How many memories did Snape put into the Pensieve? There may have been more than the one we saw. If there was a Lily/Severus link, maybe the romance of James and Lily, being found eavesdropping, or the reaction that Voldie had to his news (to go after Lily and Co.) We just don't know. I wish that we had seen all of the memories that Snape put in there. Maybe we did. I don't remember clearly.

Also, I think that Petunia's statement about 'the dreadful boy' means that someone was there. Who? It had to be someone a few years +/- from Lily's age, and one willing to talk about Dementors to or around a muggle.

I’m just a reader. Wink

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T Vrana - Oct 12, 2005 7:11 pm (#108 of 273)
Edited Oct 12, 2005 8:12 pm

I have been puzzled by 'levicorpus' being in Snape's 6th year book, though James uses it on him in their 5th year, and Snape tells Harry James used his (Snape's) own spell against him. But, Wynnleaf, you have a point. The book was his mother's. I also think Snape had a desire to prove himself, and, as we saw in a memory, was a loner. So, what did he do in his lonely, spare time? Messed around with and improved the potions in his mother's old book long before year 6, and made up spells.

I think this also ties in with Snape's disdain for Hermione. Apart from being Harry's friend, she is book clever, but stops there. He comments nastily in HBP that Hermione gives the exact book definition for something. He clearly pushed the bounds and went beyond just reading and memorizing.

hawick girl- He put at least two memories in the pensieve. I would love to see the second one...

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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 12, 2005 7:23 pm (#109 of 273)

I don't have OofP around but was there another memory when Harry saw a man - Snape's father - yelling at a 'cowering woman'? Not sure.

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hawick girl - Oct 12, 2005 7:26 pm (#110 of 273)
Edited Oct 12, 2005 8:28 pm

I thought he put more than one in, as well. I would love to find out what else he didn't want Harry to see.

Maybe Hermione reminds him of Lily. I’m not sure of the consequences of this idea, but it is a thought.

Edit: I have to re-read OotP! I can't quite remember it. It is all fuzzy around the edges!

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T Vrana - Oct 12, 2005 8:28 pm (#111 of 273)

m&m shadow- Yes and no. There is a memory of a hooked nosed man shouting and a woman cowering, and a young boy crying in the corner. It has been assumed that the hooked nosed man was Snape's father, but the newer theory, Madame Pince, Irma Pince, I am Prince, is Mama Snape. She is described as hooked nosed with sallow skin. Snape's home at Spinner's End resembles a library. Not my theory, forget whose it was, but I really like it. So, it is possible the apparently abusive man is an uncle Prince.

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zelmia - Oct 12, 2005 10:32 pm (#112 of 273)

I agree with Choices. I think "that awful boy" was James. Remember, Harry's immediate response is, "If you mean my dad, why don't you just say so?"

It's pretty well implied in the text that Petunia is older than Lily - perhaps quite a bit so. In Book One, the Evans sisters "hadn't seen each other for several years" yet their boys are only a couple months apart in age. To me this says that Petunia has already left home and been married for a bit before Lily left school. Why? Because we know Lily and James were around 22 when they died/were murdered, and Harry was only a year old. From those clues, it seems Petunia is the elder.
Personally I have always kind of seen Petunia as around 5 years or so older than Lily, although I have no canon to back this up. But for Petunia, even if she's only a couple or three years older, a 16 or 17 year old boy would be just that: a boy. And regardless of the age difference between the sisters, or who is older, it's also doubly insulting to refer to someone nearing adulthood as a child, a boy, or a little girl.

All we have to go on is Snape's behaviour toward Lily in the Worst Memory - which wasn't very nice, to say the least. Now, how one can go from that to he was secretly in love with her? Hm... I just think that's too great a leap to be making.
I think it is more likely that he saw her, if anything, as a rival. We know Slughorn favored Lily. If she and Snape were in the same class, it must have really irked Snape that Lily, a Muggle born (Snape's own heritage notwithstanding), got so much attention and praise from Slughorn. He probably only came up with half of those adjustments to the Potions text as a way of trying to move out of Lily's shadow and into Slughorn's spotlight.

And on the very remote chance that he ever did come to chez Evans on a school break or whatever, Petunia's thoughts and feelings on the matter are very clear indeed and always have been. She abhors Magic and Magical people. She also happens to be a strident neat freak. Snape is the exact opposite of everything Petunia stands for. I know they say opposites attract, but... Nope, I just don't think so.

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RoseMorninStar - Oct 12, 2005 10:33 pm (#113 of 273)
Edited Oct 12, 2005 11:35 pm

David Moulds for the News of the World – “How does Aunt Petunia know about Dementors and all the other magical facts she knows?”

JK Rowling: “Another very good question. She overheard a conversation, that is all I am going to say. She overheard conversation. The answer is in the beginning of Phoenix, she said she overheard Lily being told about them basically.”

David: “Is that true?”

JK Rowling: “Yes. The reason I am hesitant is because there is more to it than that. As I think you suspect. Correctly, but I don't want to say what else there is because it relates to book 7.”

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I don't think 'that awful boy' was James. It doesn't seem like (if it had been James) that it would 'spoil the plot'.

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zelmia - Oct 12, 2005 10:45 pm (#114 of 273)
Edited Oct 12, 2005 11:48 pm

Unless the conversation Petunia overheard was something to do with what happened at Godric's Hollow. That would definitely spoil the plot if Rowling gave away how Petunia had heard of Dementors before.

It might also explain about Petunia's absolute terror when she had heard the name Voldemort in the kitchen. Not from Dumbledore's letter (attached to Harry's blanket) but because she had heard Lily and James talking about Dementors, Voldemort and whatever else that could spoil the plot before Book 7.

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Saracene - Oct 12, 2005 10:56 pm (#115 of 273)
Edited Oct 13, 2005 12:03 am

Or maybe both of his parents were hook-nosed, unlucky boy, Smile

Regarding the conversation Aunt Petunia had overheard: I don't remember the passage exactly, but did she say explicitly that the "awful boy" was over at the Evans' house when she overheard him and her sister? Or do people just assume that he came to visit because it looks like the most likely scenario? I agree BTW that Dementors are the sort of morbid topic Snape would know about.

If Snape and Lily were friends at some point BTW, unless I’m mistaken that would be the first time anyone from the other house was friends with a Slytherin in the books. It kinda makes me think that being sorted into Slytherin really limits your social circle at school because it looks like the most isolated house - other houses don't like them much and they in return don't like other houses. Pretty hard to form inter-house relationships with those kinds of prejudices.

Snape wasn't very nice to Lily in the Pensieve, true, but you have to remember that in the same memory Lily *loathed* James. Yet eventually she married the guy - so obviously the way people feel about each other can change with time. And if Snape resented Lily for being his rival at Potions, wouldn't you expect him to make some snarky remarks about it?

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frogface - Oct 13, 2005 2:51 am (#116 of 273)

We know that in Harry's time, Slytherin was an isolated house. However we don't know for sure it was like that in the Marauder generation. I think that cheery Prof. Slughorn being Slytherin's head of house would have gone quite a way to making house relations with Slytherin at least civil, if not friendly.

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rambkowalczyk - Oct 13, 2005 4:48 am (#117 of 273)

It seems as though we are assuming that the Evans family lived on Privit Drive or in the same town that Harry grows up in. Suppose the Evans lived in the town that Spinner's End is in. This would be a secret that Petunia would rather not have any one know. Suppose they lived on Spinners End and the Evans father was a mill worker like Tobias?

This reminds me of "Keeping Up Appearances" the show where Hyacinth is continually trying to make believe she is upper crust whereas it's obvious that she isn't.

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wynnleaf - Oct 13, 2005 5:02 am (#118 of 273)

rambkowalczyk,

That's an idea that could work. Whenever I've pictured a circumstance where the Evans knew the Snapes growing up, I've pictured them both from the same town. Coming from that background might provide an explanation for why Petunia is always so interested in being just like all the neighbors. She wants to be sure that she fits in with this nice middle-class lifestyle and nothing shows of her roots.

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zelmia - Oct 13, 2005 9:46 am (#119 of 273)
Edited Oct 13, 2005 10:47 am

Actually what Petunia says in OP is "I heard that awful boy telling her about [the Dementors] years ago." To which Harry responds, "If you mean my mum and dad why don't you just use their names?"

Now, I realise that this only fuels the debate regarding just who "that awful boy" actually referred to, since technically it could be that Petunia was referring to neither James nor Lily. But remember Occam's Razor: the simplest explanation is the best.
My opinion - and I realise I am in the minority on this - is that until there is further evidence of any kind of actual friendship between Snape and... well, just about any other character, but especially Lily, it is safe to read Petunia's confession as referring to James and Lily.

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wynnleaf - Oct 13, 2005 11:07 am (#120 of 273)
Edited Oct 13, 2005 12:15 pm

But remember Occam's Razor: the simplest explanation is the best.

Well, I’m not sure that JKR follows that. Talk about loads of complex explanations throughout the books!!

But also - - -if it was all so simple, when asked about where Petunia heard about Dementors, JKR could have so easily just said, "she overheard James talking to Lily." Even if the conversation had been about something JKR didn't want to reveal, it wouldn't have revealed any of it to say something that simple and direct. But that's not what JKR did. She wouldn't say anything about it other than that Petunia overheard a conversation. It's easy to explain that away as not so important, by suggesting that JKR couldn't reveal anything about the conversation without giving away a plot detail. But if the conversation was between James and Lily -- when we already know Petunia probably knew James -- there's be no reason why JKR couldn't just say she overheard James mention Dementors. It's the fact that she didn't say who Petunia overheard, that makes it sound very suspiciously like it wasn't James, and revealing who she did hear would reveal plot secrets. That strikes me as indicating that if we knew who it was Petunia heard -- we would know something important.

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haymoni - Oct 13, 2005 11:38 am (#121 of 273)

wynnleaf - I agree. Sometimes with Jo it is more important to look at what she doesn't or won't say rather than what she does say.

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Paulus Maximus - Oct 14, 2005 6:13 am (#122 of 273)
Edited Oct 14, 2005 7:16 am

Unless the conversation Petunia overheard was something to do with what happened at Godric's Hollow. That would definitely spoil the plot if Rowling gave away how Petunia had heard of Dementors before.

If the conversation was anything to do with what (we know) happened at Godric's Hollow, then it couldn't have been between Lily and James (or between either of them and anyone else), because they were already dead by then. And how many other "awful boy"s and "her"s could Petunia overhear?

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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 16, 2005 10:03 am (#123 of 273)

I agree, Paulus Maximus, couldn't have been Godric's Hollow... The conversation with the elusive 'awful boy' must have been at Lily and Pet's childhood home, in my opinion. I like the idea of them growing up in Spinner's End. Makes much sense to continuity of plot a la JKR.

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Saracene - Oct 23, 2005 3:26 am (#124 of 273)

I've read this bit of observation on another HP site concerning the Occlumency lessons which, if the “Snape-cared-for-Lily” theory turns out to be true, could be interesting. At one point, Snape throws Legilimency at Harry again and Harry gets the usual stream of flashing memories in his mind: a black dragon... his parents waving to him from the mirror... Cedric lying dead on the ground. After which he just goes NOOOOOO! and then Snape tells him to get up, etc., and the book mentions that Snape looks paler than usual. The suggestion was that Snape himself got a bit of unexpected jolt from seeing Lily flash in Harry's memories, hence the paleness.

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Circe - Oct 23, 2005 11:13 pm (#125 of 273)

Very possible! I already read that as meaning Snape was pale because of Cedric's death and the link to the return of a Voldemort that was unhappy with Snape (remember Voldemort counts him as one who has left his service forever).

Lady Arabella Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:21 pm

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wynnleaf - Oct 24, 2005 5:59 am (#126 of 273)

Saracene,

That's an interesting observation. I had noticed before the mention of Severus being more pale after that encounter, and I do remember wondering exactly what in Harry's mind had such an effect on Severus. But I never thought of it as the memory of James and Lily. I guess I assumed it must be the memory of Cedric dead. But Severus would know about that and shouldn't have been shocked in any way to run across that memory. On the other hand, Severus probably had no knowledge that Harry had a memory of James and Lily (beyond baby memories), so wouldn't have expected to run across that.

Of course, a person can still be shocked to see something even if they were expecting to see it.

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T Vrana - Oct 24, 2005 6:01 am (#127 of 273)

I like the idea Snape was shocked at seeing Lily.

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CatherineHermiona - Oct 24, 2005 12:35 pm (#128 of 273)
Edited Oct 24, 2005 1:36 pm

I saw something during re-watching PoA. There was the scene where Lupin was talking to Harry about his mother:

“Lily was amazing woman. She was with me when no-one else wasn't. She knew how to see beauty in others - even when others haven't seen it in themselves.”

I see this sentence very important.

Sorry if I’m interrupting a conversation. I just saw this and I had to post it. Kate

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wynnleaf - Oct 24, 2005 3:31 pm (#129 of 273)

CatherineHermiona,

I know several people have mentioned that as a possibility for something that JKR saw in POA and that gave her chills as something that foreshadows future books.

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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 25, 2005 7:24 am (#130 of 273)
Edited Oct 25, 2005 8:25 am

I was cruising through a JKR interview on quick quotes quill that someone referenced, and came across these two quotes I thought were significant to this discussion...

‘ “There’s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape.”

JKR: “He, um, there’s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can’t because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I’m slightly stunned that you’ve said that and you’ll find out why I’m so stunned if you read Book 7. That’s all I’m going to say.”

“Hi, I really like the books and we already learned a lot about Harry’s father and I was wondering ‘Are we going to learn a lot about his mother?’ “

JKR: “Yeah, you will. It’s ---- yet again ---- you won’t find out ---- OK, in Book 3 you’re absolutely right. You find out a lot about Harry’s father. Now the important thing about Harry’s mother, the really, really significant thing, you’re going to find out in 2 parts. You’ll find out a lot more about her in Book 5, or you’ll find out something very significant about her in Book 5, then you’ll find out something incredibly important about her in Book 7. But I can’t tell you what those things are so I’m sorry, but yes, you will find out more about her because both of them are very important in what Harry ends up having to do.”

I guess it's just a matter of wondering what she means regarding book 5?

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haymoni - Oct 25, 2005 7:55 am (#131 of 273)

Yes - could she have made a mistake and meant Book 6 - the fact that she was so good at Potions?

Or is it the "awful boy" comment by Petunia?

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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 25, 2005 8:16 am (#132 of 273)
Edited Oct 25, 2005 9:16 am

I was thinking she was referring to Lily's defending Snape in 'worst memory'. If so, that would indicate we'll find out about their friendship/history in book 7. And her mentioning that both 'significant things' are very important in what Harry has to do could be about forgiving Snape and/or them saving each other's lives or something.

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haymoni - Oct 25, 2005 8:43 am (#133 of 273)

All this re-reading - I’m having trouble remembering what happens when!!

Book 7 better be HUGE.

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wynnleaf - Oct 25, 2005 10:21 am (#134 of 273)

“You’ll find out a lot more about her in Book 5, or you’ll find out something very significant about her in Book 5,....”

JKR seems to start with "a lot more about her," and change so that she words it better with "something very significant." It's as though she means that something she would reveal about Lily in Book 5, while not fitting our usual interpretation of "a lot" -- that is, it's not a lot of textual stuff -- is, none the less "a lot" in terms of being "very significant."

What all do we learn that's new about Lily in Book 5?

We already know about her choice to die for Harry (Book 4). We already know about her love giving him protection.

I’m not sure what additional information we learn about Lily's love protecting Harry. Part of what we learn at the end of Book 5 is how Harry's ability to love helps protect him. And we learn how DD used the blood connection to create protection for Harry at Privet Drive.

New stuff about Lily. I don't have my book here. I can only think of the Pensieve scene and her defense of Severus Snape.

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T Vrana - Oct 25, 2005 5:21 pm (#135 of 273)

I agree it seems to be the Pensieve scene. Lily standing up for Snape. Nothing else new I can think of.

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Saracene - Oct 25, 2005 11:00 pm (#136 of 273)

What intrigues me in the Pensieve scene is Lily's reaction when James uses Levicorpus on Snape and Lily is described as suppressing a smile. Why did she feel the urge the smile when she was so clearly outraged? Did she really find the sight amusing?

Lily's reaction to "Mudblood" comment BTW makes me feel pretty sure that she and Snape weren't friends or good acquaintances at the time of the Pensieve incident. If they were and Lily has just been called a very offensive name by someone she considered a friend, I'd expect reaction that had some hurt to it, instead of her just saying coolly, “oh well then, I won't bother next time.” In general I can't say I detect any real personal vibe between them two in this scene.

Just thinking about that example of obsessive love in the books - Merope's for Tom Riddle Snr., I wonder if Snape, if he had some unrequited love for Lily, tried to pull something similar (especially seeing his penchant of trying to improve potions recipes)...

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kage - Oct 26, 2005 6:29 am (#137 of 273)

If they were [friends] and Lily has just been called a very offensive name by someone she considered a friend, I'd expect reaction that had some hurt to it, instead of her just saying coolly, “oh well then, I won't bother next time.”

Actually Lily calls him Snivellus, which is what James and Sirius call Severus. So I think it does hurt a lot.

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wynnleaf - Oct 26, 2005 6:37 am (#138 of 273)
Edited Oct 26, 2005 7:39 am

One problem I have with the idea of the “mudblood” comment being Severus' worst memory, or Lily breaking off a friendship over that bit of name-calling, is my experiences watching several teenage kids and their friends. I’m often amazed at the variety of insults that teenagers will toss out at each other and yet eventually be forgiven. I do think it's maybe more of a guy thing -- some of the awful things they will say to each other and still remain good friends is almost unbelievable at times. So a girl at that age might take things a good deal worse. Still, if Lily and Severus were truly friends, it just seems a stretch to believe that the friendship would completely end over that one incident. Particularly since Lily would surely have known that it was an especially stressful and embarrassing incident for Severus -- I'd think it could be forgiven.

The only way I could really explain this would be if it was Severus who thought it was unforgivable and allowed a major breach to occur, never going to Lily and apologizing (that would be in character, after all), and not even trying any other attempt to remain friends.

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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 26, 2005 7:09 am (#139 of 273)

I agree with wynnleaf in that Snape is more likely to hold a grudge (obviously in his character) over 'worst memory' than Lily. It may be a testimony to her character that she didn't freak out over it.

Saracene, it seems Lily's slight smile was foreshadowing her eventually warming up to James. I believe Snape called her a mudblood because he saw the 'smile' so had fear and rage that he'd lose her to James. She cracked at his darkest hour and so used the most derogatory word of their culture that he knew would hurt her like she'd just hurt him.

He'd probably knew all along their friendship would never amount to anything romantic, but had his hopes (enter obsessive love?).

Given JKR's quote in above post, it seems this scenario is becoming quite probable. In my opinion of course.

I keep trying to fit the book in to all this. I still think Lily's involved with that potions book and when Harry retrieves it something big will happen. Any ideas?

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T Vrana - Oct 26, 2005 7:12 am (#140 of 273)

If we took a pensieve moment of Hermione and Ron, with Hermione sending birds to attack Ron, what would we think...

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CatherineHermiona - Oct 26, 2005 10:27 am (#141 of 273)

What if Lily accepted to be James' girlfriend just to hurt Snape? I’m not saying that she didn't love James, maybe she fell in love with him AFTER she started to date with him. We know she always thought that James is way too selfish.

I’m in the chat room. Kate

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T Vrana - Oct 26, 2005 5:53 pm (#142 of 273)
Edited Oct 26, 2005 7:08 pm

ala Hermione going out with McLaggen? Hmmmm...I don't see the Lily/Snape 'relationship' as anything but platonic, sorta like Harry and Luna.

Wait! What if everyone was after Lily the way all the girls wanted Harry to ask them to Sluggy's Christmas party (including James!). Snape may not have been in the Slug Club, or even if he was, Lily asked Snape to go to the Christmas Party, the same way Harry asked Luna, just as friends. Snape fell for Lily and later felt embarrassed when his affection was not returned and Lily confirmed she only liked him as a friend. He determines never to show his emotions openly again.

Possible?

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Saracene - Oct 26, 2005 6:42 pm (#143 of 273)

Well, of course Lily would feel hurt at being rebuked so offensively by someone she tried to stick up for. I just don't get the feeling that her defense of Snape had anything personal about it, that she was sticking up for someone who was her friend. Prior to the "mudblood" comment, her attention in that scene is concentrated 100% on James - she doesn't interact like a concerned friend with Snape at all. And Snape himself doesn't really interact with Lily either - his "mudblood" comment is made in third person; he's not actually talking to Lily herself.

I tend to think that, if Snape had any feelings for Lily at all, they'd appear sometime after the Pensieve scene. They were only in their fifth grade; there was still some time for the feelings to change. I wouldn't necessarily take the "mudblood" slur as a proof that Snape had the same sort of aggressive prejudice against Muggle-borns that, say, Draco has. IMO it's more likely that at that moment he was in a mood to lash out and "mudblood" was the worst insult he could possibly make about Lily.

And if you look at HBP, sixth year definitely looks like the year where everyone's romantic feelings really take off in a big way, Smile

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wynnleaf - Oct 26, 2005 6:54 pm (#144 of 273)
Edited Oct 26, 2005 8:07 pm

So what do we learn about Lily in Book 5??

If she and Severus didn't have some sort of friendship, that is.

Well, maybe that she knew Severus was half-blood. Her reaction to the mudblood comment is somewhat surprised.

If Draco, for instance, called someone a mudblood, no one would be surprised in the slightest. But perhaps Lily was a bit surprised because she knew Severus' half-blood background. But if she did know it, how?

You know, maybe we're completely misinterpreting part of this. When we try to see a Lily connection in the pensieve scene, it's usually interpreted along the lines of the mudblood comment ending some sort of relationship, or perhaps just putting Severus -- with secret feelings for Lily -- into a position where he thinks she'll never like him.

But then we've seen the HBP 6th year potions book and many have speculated that the two worked together in potions.

Suppose that Lily didn't hold a grudge over the mudblood remark, and that Severus actually did (I know this sounds weird) in some way try to make up for it and they became friends. Then they collaborated in potions during NEWT years.

But then Lily started dating James and that, of course, ended the friendship from Severus' point of view.

I’m trying to put the mudblood remark into a scenario that includes some possible hints in HBP that they may have been friends during 6th year.

me and my shadow 813, where can I find that quote of JKR's about finding out important things about Lily in books 5 and 7? I looked in Madam Scoops and couldn't find it.

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T Vrana - Oct 26, 2005 7:19 pm (#145 of 273)
Edited Oct 26, 2005 8:36 pm

wynnleaf- "I’m trying to put the mudblood remark into a scenario that includes some possible hints in HBP that they may have been friends during 6th year"

Well, in looking at JK's use of mirror images. I'll try the above again. Someone (Lupin) said Lily was very popular. In sixth year, Harry is very popular. Lily would have been a member of the Slug Cub. Harry is a member of the Slug Club. Luna is a loner, not from Harry's house, who others pick on. Snape is a loner, not from Lily's house, who others pick on. Girls are plotting how to get Harry to ask them to Sluggy's Christmas Party. Lily, very popular, likely had boys hoping she would ask them to the Christmas Party. Harry, feeling a bit sorry for Luna, asks her to go, and then almost regrets it. Lily, feeling sorry for Snape (and not one to hold a grudge), asks him to go, and may later regret it. But for Snape, it is much more meaningful, and he develops an obsessive love toward Lily, which she eventually has to squash. Snape is crushed, and determines not to be so vulnerable again (thus Snape's comment to Tonks about her obvious love for Lupin).

And, if James, Lily and Snape were all in NEWT Potions together, I can see the following:

“Hey, Evans. Why not ask me to the party. Come on, who else would you rather go with?”

Raised eyebrows from Lily.

“Severus, would you like to go the Party with me?”

I would not see this as Lily using Snape, more putting James in his place, while asking someone she does feel a bit sorry for. Like Harry.

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Saracene - Oct 26, 2005 9:21 pm (#146 of 273)

I don't really think that it would surprise anyone that someone who is a half-blood would despise a Muggle-born. If you buy into that whole blood hierarchy thing, then having one wizard parent would definitely make you feel that you are a cut above someone who has no wizard parents at all.

I think that Snape is very likely to have been in Slug Club. He was clearly a gifted student and someone likely to be singled out by Slughorn. And if Lily did ask him to the party, I think it would have been a *huge* item of gossip at school, in the same way that Harry asking Luna is. Yet I get an impression that even if there was some sort of friendship it would have been very low-key and not something many people were aware of.

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wynnleaf - Oct 27, 2005 6:56 am (#147 of 273)
Edited Oct 27, 2005 9:01 am

I agree with Saracene. If Severus and Lily had any kind of relationship in 6th year, I don't think anyone would have been particularly aware of it -- not to the extent that everyone was aware that Harry took Luna to the Christmas party.

However, I think they could have had a less public friendship. Suppose that they had a friendship that partly evolved through NEWT level potions class. Not everyone takes NEWT level potions. The Marauders may or may not have been in that class. We don't know for sure that any of them became Aurors, requiring that class. The class would have been a lot smaller, with perhaps more contact between students of different houses.

Suppose two very talented students started to work together and became friends? It might not require a direct apology from Severus for the mudblood remark (seems so hard to imagine). It could just have started with Lily being willing to be nice to an often-picked-on loner, and Severus remembering that this was one person who did try to stick up for him at the end of the previous year. Add to that, each with an admiration for the skill of the other -- and a friendship begins.

Edit: I know of a personal example of the above type of friendship. I guess it's what makes a Lily/Severus friendship make so much sense to me. If you're interested, email me and I'll send it to you.

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T Vrana - Oct 27, 2005 5:25 pm (#148 of 273)

wynnleaf and sarcene- what makes you think a trip to Sluggy's party was not known? If this did happen, many, many years ago, it was a big deal then. But how many High School big deals do you remember and discuss? Add to this that Harry never really knew his parents and hates Snape, would anyone share, by the way your mom took Snape to a party? I still like the parallel.

I also like the idea of a friendship of sorts developing in NEWT Potions. With Lily being great at potions and the HBP's book, they could have shared notes, or just admired each other’s work and had a friendly competition of sorts.

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Saracene - Oct 27, 2005 6:08 pm (#149 of 273)
Edited Oct 27, 2005 7:24 pm

Well, no, I don't think anyone would directly offer that sort of information to Harry. However, my impression is that basically no one who was around at school at the time of Snape and Lily is aware of any connection between them at all. Otherwise I'd expect to see -some- sort of veiled comment or ambiguous "foreshadowing" observation from someone. Something along the lines of Petunia's "awful boy" remark. When Harry tells everyone at the end of HBP how Snape told DD that he was so sorry for his parents' death, and that Snape obviously didn't think much of his mother cause he called her a filthy little mudblood, everyone just takes it along.

And also, an open friendship or any sort of connection with a muggle-born would not exactly decorate Snape's Death Eater resume later on.

I can see what you mean with the parallels to Luna, but I think that Snape is altogether a different kettle of fish. They're both outsiders, but Luna is considered to be just a harmless weirdo, and is not a surly, greasy, Slytherin tinkering with dangerous curses and Dark Arts, and hurling "mudblood" insults at people who try to help them. Harry asking Luna caused major enough gossip, but a girl like Lily asking someone like Snape out? That would leave everyone's jaws hanging open for years to come.

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kage - Oct 28, 2005 1:50 am (#150 of 273)

Otherwise I'd expect to see -some- sort of veiled comment or ambiguous "foreshadowing" observation from someone.

Saracene, well, it was already given:
“Lily was amazing woman. She was with me when no-one else wasn't. She knew how to see beauty in others - even when others haven't seen it in themselves.”
(I think I mentioned it somewhere at least once before, but thanks to CatherineHermiona in post #128 for giving the quote from POA movie. (I admit I thought it was said in HBP, but as my mind isn't such a reliable source...does anybody know if/where Remus says something like that in the book?)

Why shouldn't this be valid for Lily/Severus as well?

Also, while Harry is talking to Mr. Weasley and Remus at Christmas about Severus , there's those horrible love songs playing all the time (said this before, too). I have to admit that these songs can be at least as easily connected with Remus, though. (Still, the book is about Harry and the Half Blood Prince -> Severus Snape...)

Lady Arabella Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:23 pm

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Saracene - Oct 28, 2005 2:16 am (#151 of 273)

I haven't actually seen PoA (or any HP movie), but yeah, I know about that quote. I didn't count it though since it belongs exclusively to the films and in the books Lupin doesn't say anything that could serve as an equivalent.

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wynnleaf - Oct 28, 2005 8:24 am (#152 of 273)

I had wondered if that quote from the POA movie was one thing that JKR felt foreshadowed what we'd discover in future books. But that's not enough to make it anywhere near canon.

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me and my shadow 813 - Oct 28, 2005 10:05 am (#153 of 273)

I wanted to add to something mentioned earlier in this thread regarding Lily and Severus perhaps having that Advanced Potions book prior to 6th year.

In GoF, Hermione says she is doing OWL practice papers - in 4th year.

So Lily and Severus could have had the "HBP" book in 5th year, which makes sense that the notes on "Levicorpus" and "Sectumsempra" were written in it, being used in 5th year "worst memory".

Perhaps Slughorn gave it to his star pupils in 4th year from his own bookshelf. It doesn't have to have come from Severus' mother.

What do you think?

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T Vrana - Oct 29, 2005 8:02 am (#154 of 273)

I’m not sure that quote was what JKR was referring to. Didn't she say she caught her breath when she saw it, not heard it. Didn't the director say it was obvious and there in the books? I thought she was referring to Ron and Hermione briefly grabbing each other’s hands when Hagrid brought out Buckbeak (think that's the scene). The Ron/Hermione relationship is there throughout the books. I’m not sure this line about Lily is. Before this line was brought out here, did anyone think anything like this about Lily? You could after perhaps come up with this after OotP, but I thought the director said it was there from the beginning.

So where did it come from if not the books? I have to go find those quotes, unless someone else knows where they are.

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CatherineHermiona - Oct 29, 2005 10:25 am (#155 of 273)

Oh, I thought that's perfectly clear that Ron and Hermione will become a couple. It's so obvious!!!!!!!!!!!

I’m in the chat room. Kate

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frogface - Nov 5, 2005 2:50 am (#156 of 273)

LOL, yes, I always thought so too Kate, but a lot of people seemed to think that a Harry/Hermione relationship was obvious.

Me and my shadow 183, it could just be that the curriculum was changed during the time when the Marauders were at school and when Harry started. Snape may have changed it himself because he felt that younger students shouldn't have access to the sort of potions he did. He may blame some of his education for stimulating his fascination with the dark arts and later becoming a death eater.

I like the Snape/Lily friendship theory, but I think that if she had taken him to a party Slughorn would have mentioned it. He doesn't seem to know anything the animosity between Snape and Harry because he caused a rather awkward scene by mentioning Harry's potion "talent" to Snape. Then again he could have been trying to patch things up between them... I've just woken up so I'll need to think about this one!

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Soul Search - Nov 5, 2005 5:29 am (#157 of 273)

Hermione took McClaggen to a Slughorn party to annoy Ron.

Could Lily have taken Snape to a Slughorn party to annoy James?

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T Vrana - Nov 5, 2005 6:51 am (#158 of 273)

Soul Search- Yes! I think so. But not in the same way. Hermione took McLaggen to make Ron jealous. I think Lily might have asked Snape to deflate James' ego a bit. Just a theory....

I, too, thought the Ron/Hermione relationship was obvious and was really surprised to discover there was a real debate going on regarding Hermione and Harry (never 'forumed' til post HBP). But that hand holding moment was the only thing that stood out, for me. I had watched the whole movie again looking for the "clue" that made JK catch her breath, got to the end and thought "That's it?!". I never picked up on the Lupin/Lily comment. It does make a better "I can't believe that's there" moment for JKR...I really want to find the director's comment...

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wynnleaf - Nov 5, 2005 7:03 am (#159 of 273)

I found Slughorn's comments to Harry and Severus at the Christmas party interesting. In every other reference Slughorn made to Harry's talent, he'd say something about Harry inheriting the talent from Lily. But when Severus is standing there and Slughorn mentions Harry's talent, he doesn't mention Lily at all, but first said something about Severus teaching Harry for 5 years and then that Harry must be a natural. But he didn't mention Lily at all around Severus.

Of course, that could just be JKR not wanting to give us an opportunity to see Severus react or not react to a mention of Lily. But I also wondered if both Lily and Severus were in the Slug Club, perhaps Slughorn knew about a friendship or attraction and just didn't think it would be a good idea to mention Lily around Severus. Slughorn may be rude occasionally, but he can be pretty perceptive when he wants to be.

I still don't think Lily would have asked Severus to a Slug Club party. I think he would have been part of the Slug Club and invited anyway.

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T Vrana - Nov 5, 2005 7:19 am (#160 of 273)

Even if he was a member, Lily could have asked him, in front of James, to go with her, just to goad James, and be nice to Snape. If Snape was invited, would he ask anyone? Would anyone accept?

I can see Snape being taunted because he has no one to go with.

I can see Lily being kind, while putting James in his place, in any number of scenarios.

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Choices - Nov 5, 2005 10:08 am (#161 of 273)

I cannot even buy into a friendship between Lily and Snape, much less a romance. First they are in two very different houses and second, Snape is a loner and probably a geek - hardly one to mingle or attend parties. I just can't imagine them getting together in any way, shape, or form. People from different houses do not seem to intermingle - Luna being the possible exception when she goes with Harry, Ron, Hermione, Ginny, and Neville (all Gryffindors)to help out at the MOM and in book 6 when the DE's come to Hogwarts. We see students from different houses speaking and being in class together or doing other activities (Dueling Club, etc.), but they generally don't hang out together.

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wynnleaf - Nov 5, 2005 11:07 am (#162 of 273)

Choices,

That was true of Hogwarts in Harry's years prior to the Slug Club. But in Slughorn's group, students from different houses do intermingle and socialize. I assume that Slughorn's Slug Club was similar during the time of Severus, the Marauders, and Lily. We can be certain that Lily was in the SlugClub, and based on the way Slughorn chooses people, plus the way he talked to Severus at the Christmas part (even the fact that Severus was at the Christmas party), makes me mostly convinced that Severus was in the Slug Club, too.

So there you have it -- perfect opportunity for the two to get to know each other, in an atmosphere where students did mingle between houses.

As for Severus being a loner -- that's true. However, I could see Lily striking up a conversation, especially if she already knew that he was really, really good at one of her best subjects, potions.

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T Vrana - Nov 5, 2005 1:01 pm (#163 of 273)

Choices- Luna is also a loner and a 'geek', and from another house. Harry asked her. Harry seems to have his mom's compassion.

I don't see it as a romance at all. More like Harry and Luna, just friends. Lily may even have had a moment of regret after asking Snape, just as Harry did after asking Luna.

The parallel between Harry/Luna and Lily/Snape just strikes me as possible and interesting. 'Specially since all the girls wanted Harry to ask them, and Lupin (?) mentioned Lily was very popular (or was that Sluggy). At some point Snape has worn his heart on his sleeve and regrets it. It could be over Lily. She was kind, he read more into it, he became obsessed (Slughorn talked of the danger of obsessive love).

Just a thought...

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me and my shadow 813 - Nov 5, 2005 2:29 pm (#164 of 273)

# I felt the urge to repost this quote, just to refresh our memories...

ES: “Was James the only one who had romantic feelings for Lily?”

JKR: “No. [Pause.] She was like Ginny, she was a popular girl.”

MA: “Snape?”

JKR: “That is a theory that's been put to me repeatedly.”

ES: “What about Lupin?”

JKR: ”I can answer either one.”

ES: ”How about both? One at a time.”

JKR: “I can't answer, can I, really?

...Lupin was very fond of Lily, we'll put it like that, but I wouldn't want anyone to run around thinking that he competed with James for her. She was a popular girl, and that is relevant. But I think you've seen that already. She was a bit of a catch.”

MA: “How did they get together? She hated James, from what we’ve seen.”

JKR: “Did she really? You're a woman, you know what I’m saying.” [Laughter.]

At this point, who could it possibly be "relevant" for other than Snape?

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Solitaire - Nov 5, 2005 2:30 pm (#165 of 273)

Was Eileen Prince a pure-blood or a half-blood Witch? Could she have been the first Half-blood Prince?

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Saracene - Nov 5, 2005 2:59 pm (#166 of 273)

Slughorn doesn't really strike me as a person who takes care to mind other people's feelings. He's quite thick-skinned in that regard IMO.

I can really only see very superficial parallels between Luna and Snape and IMO the differences between them are too major. Luna is from Ravenclaw and her house has fairly good relations with Gryffindor; Snape is from Slytherin and the animosity between them and Gryffindors hardly started in Harry's day. Prior to Harry asking Luna out, they have already established friendly relationship with each other; the only interaction we have seen between Snape and Lily so far involved him calling Lily a mudblood and Lily walking away. Hardly a basis for a mutual good feeling.

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wynnleaf - Nov 5, 2005 3:02 pm (#167 of 273)

me and my shadow,

Thanks for reposting those interview quotes. It seems significant to me that JKR was willing to at least say some tiny bit about Lupin being fond of Lily, but she didn't respond to the Snape part of the question at all. And as you say, why would the part about her being popular be "relevant?"

I just have to add this little personal thing. I am much acquainted with a recent high school friendship which has such similarities. Very bright, talented, popular, pretty girl who has lots of friends also having a close friendship with dark, cynical, geeky, very bright and talented loner guy. Not romantic on her part, but if it was on his, he'd never, ever say so. But it was a very close friendship that practically no one else knew about.

I guess knowing about a real relationship that has a lot of similarities, and was also, while not intentionally secret, unknown by practically everyone, makes the idea of a strong friendship between Lily and Severus very believable, as well as such a friendship being unknown to most other students and teachers.

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me and my shadow 813 - Nov 5, 2005 3:10 pm (#168 of 273)

# I got another urge to post more of same interview after so many comments about how it's impossible that Lily would be friendly with a Slytherin. It's ridiculous to me to think that she'd be that prejudice...

ES: “Why is Slytherin house still –“

JKR: “Still allowed!”

[All laugh]

ES: “Yes! I mean, it's such a stigma.”

JKR: “But they're not all bad. They literally are not all bad. [Pause.] Well, the deeper answer, the non-flippant answer, would be that you have to embrace all of a person, you have to take them with their flaws, and everyone's got them. It’s the same way with the student body. If only they could achieve perfect unity, you would have an absolute unstoppable force, and I suppose it's that craving for unity and wholeness that means that they keep that quarter of the school that maybe does not encapsulate the most generous and noble qualities, in the hope, in the very Dumbledore-esque hope that they will achieve union, and they will achieve harmony. Harmony is the word.”

ES: “Couldn’t —“

JKR: “Couldn't they just shoot them all? NO, Emerson, they really couldn’t!”

[All laugh]

ES: “Couldn't they just put them into the other three houses, and maybe it wouldn’t be a perfect fit for all of them, but a close enough fit that they would get by and wouldn't be in such a negative environment?”

JKR: “They could. But you must remember, I have thought about this —“

ES: “Even their common room is a gloomy dark room—“

JKR: “Well, I don't know, because I think the Slytherin common room has a spooky beauty.”

ES: “It's gotta be a bad idea to stick all the Death Eaters' kids together in one place.”

[All crack up again ]

JKR: “But they're not all — don't think I don't take your point, but — we, the reader, and I as the writer, because I’m leading you all there — you are seeing Slytherin house always from the perspective of Death Eaters' children. They are a small fraction of the total Slytherin population. I’m not saying all the other Slytherins are adorable, but they're certainly not Draco, they're certainly not, you know, Crabbe and Goyle. They're not all like that, that would be too brutal for words, wouldn’t it?”

ES: “But there aren't a lot of Death Eater children in the other houses, are there?”

JKR: “You will have people connected with Death Eaters in the other houses, yeah, absolutely.”

Okay, I think I’m done now.

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wynnleaf - Nov 5, 2005 3:45 pm (#169 of 273)

You know, maybe I’m wrong -- I know that DD and Hermione often speak for JKR. But sometimes I get the feeling that this unknown personality of Lily - that we only know 3rd person from just a few people, and very little even from them - is really more like JKR than maybe any of the other characters. Whenever I see or hear JKR and then think of Lily, I think of Lily as though she's like JKR.

Okay, suppose -- just suppose -- that's true. Then the way JKR sees the Slytherins might be in her imagination the way Lily saw them -- take the good with the bad and appreciate them for who they are (not the really bad guys, but the others). And JKR enjoys Severus' character. Sure, she's said a lot about the negatives of his character, but she's also admitted to really enjoying his character, too. So whenever I think of maybe Lily being friends with Severus, I think of this JKR kind of personality -- and then it makes sense to me.

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Saracene - Nov 5, 2005 4:03 pm (#170 of 273)

Well... I get what JKR is saying about Draco and his posse representing only a small portion of Slytherins. But if you go by what is actually there in the books, there's barely any suggestion that these decent Slytherin students exist at all and certainly no evidence of Slytherin students making friendships or even casual acquaintances with people from the other houses; in Harry's time or his parents' time. And the books mention that Gryffindor students hate Slytherins "on principle". It would be very hard for anyone to rise above this whole culture of mutual animosity, even someone as good-hearted as Lily.

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Choices - Nov 5, 2005 6:14 pm (#171 of 273)

OK, I confess you all have convinced me that it is possible that Lily and Snape were friends. But, I do have to say that I don't exactly see the Slug Club parties as being events where members of all the houses mingle and have a jolly good time. It seemed to me that they mostly clumped into groups of their own houses and there was a bit of animosity between individuals from different houses when they did mingle. Slughorn seemed to be the only one who went from group to group or individual to individual and chatted with them. He was like a social butterfly flitting from flower (person to person) to flower. I could be wrong, but I did not get the idea that there was a lot of friendly interaction going on among the students.

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Finn BV - Nov 5, 2005 8:45 pm (#172 of 273)

Yes, I agree, Choices. Assuming this generations' parties are no different from the previous', it seems that there are just awkward moments of silence when Slughorn tries to bring up conversation between houses.

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Valfunde - Nov 5, 2005 8:51 pm (#173 of 273)
Edited by Nov 5, 2005 8:53 pm

All of this recent conversation about cross-house friendships and how Gryffindors (Lily) could have been friends with Slytherins (Snape) reminds me of the importance of the Sorting Hat's Song of "Warning" in OotP. In the song we hear that the original Godric and Salthazar were the best and closest of friends. We tend not to think of the dusty old founders in this way really. The deep divide between them overshadows this original true and pure friendship. In my mind it reminds me of a Harry and Ron kind of deep friendship that perhaps Godric and Salthazar shared. That's one of the reasons why the spilt between them was so catastrophic. Why couldn't Lily be friends with Snape, really? Like others, I too believe something is there. Lily got along well with Slughorn and he made jokes to her how she should be in Slytherin. She gave him a cheeky reply back to that, so it shows they had a bit more than just your average student to teacher relationship. It was a mutual appreciation for each other. I think that Lily could've easily have had that with Severus.

Oh, one thing that I want to add about a Severus and Lily friendship. I can't remember which book/s (OotP?) it is in, but this has always stuck with me. Ever notice how Snape's insults of James to Harry, most specifically the ones about his big fat head/his conceitedness, really echo what we heard Lily say to James in that Pensieve memory? She said something to James like “it's amazing that you can stay on your broom playing quidditch with that big swollen head of yours.” Gee, doesn't that sound like a "Severus-like" thing to say? Yeah, it does cause we have heard him pretty much say the same thing to Harry about his father. I bet just a bit of Lily and Severus' friendship might have revolved around their dislike of "people that aren't like us" - you know how teenagers are - and James was one of those people. Not that I can see Lily being petty, mean or vindictive about it. James picked on Severus (who probably also gave it back too- but we don't see this in that Pensieve memory) and Lily was echoing this in her dislike of James. Just a thought...

wynnleaf - I do so enjoy your posts and completely understand the "vibe" you get about Lily being an aspect of JKR like we sense with DD and Hermione. She, like Lily, gave "birth" to Harry! Something that I always remember was that JKR said once in an interview that for the SS movie, they wanted to cast her as Lily! She obviously didn't do it, but someone else saw the connection there too.

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Ann - Nov 6, 2005 7:15 am (#174 of 273)

This is a great thread! I've just discovered it, and I’m really impressed by all the interesting ideas. But I’m bothered by the assumption that lots of people seem to make that Lily wasn't in love. I think they both were--although it wasn't openly acknowledged as romantic/sexual love by either of them. I can see them having been quite good friends all through school, perhaps because they were both so good at potions. That might explain why James was so nasty to Snape: he was jealous that, despite his general popularity and charmed existence, Lily wasn't interested in him. So he and his friends try to make Snape look bad, and of course that just makes Lily dislike them more. I think Snape visited her home and was the "awful boy" Petunia overheard. (I can't see a failed Petunia-Snape relationship; "awful boy" is insufficiently vehement for that!)

As they reach the end of their 5th year, Lily & Snape's friendship turns to love, rather like Hermione and Ron's seems to be doing. But its development is stopped by James' attack, which humiliates young Snape using his own spell and in front of the young woman whose respect and love is most valuable to him. The thought that he has already ruined any chance of having her respect by being seen in this humiliating position (as I think most insecure teenagers might be tempted to assume--and Snape was clearly a very insecure teenager) would have upset Snape so much that, when she tries to help (out of pity, he thinks) he lashes out and uses a horrible slur, thereby actually betraying their friendship and her himself. No wonder it's his worst memory.

I think when Voldemort interprets the first half of the prophecy and decides to go after the Potters, Snape begins to loathe himself, and turns to Dumbledore. I don't think Voldemort would have spared Lily because Snape asked him to, but because Snape came up with some reason to advise Voldemort to leave her alive--possibly even a reference to the power of a mother's love. Voldemort doesn't really believe him, of course, having no experience of love or understanding of its power. So he kills her when she won't get out of the way. Just as Harry blames Snape so violently for Sirius's death (because he knows deep down that it's his own fault), Snape blames James and Sirius for Lily's death (because he, too, knows deep down that it's his own fault). So many parallels between Snape and Harry!

As for the Potions book, I think the notes were probably Snape's writing (not Lily's or Petunia's), but I wonder if they weren't charmed so that only Harry can read them. Possibly because Snape really wanted Harry to learn from him that way--but possibly because he charmed the handwritten notes as a student, so that they could only be read by "Lily's eyes"! If so, there may be more stuff in the book that Harry will find useful down the line. (Why, otherwise, would JKR make a point of telling us that he hasn't read all the notes?)

(Sorry to have made this so long.)

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wynnleaf - Nov 6, 2005 7:47 am (#175 of 273)

(Why, otherwise, would JKR make a point of telling us that he hasn't read all the notes?)

Ann, did she say that?? Where? I want to see that.

Edit: do you mean she tells us in the book?

Lady Arabella Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:25 pm

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Soul Search - Nov 6, 2005 7:51 am (#176 of 273)

Ann,

I like the idea that the notes in the potions book were charmed and could only be understood by "Lily's eyes." This would fit with and explain the numerous "Lily's eyes" references.

I can't recall any scene where either Ron or Hermione read any notes. Hermione would have wanted to.

I will have to read those passages again, but I do have the vague feeling that Harry had a little trouble, at first, in understanding the notes. While Harry has "Lily's eyes," he is not Lily, so maybe the charm did not work perfectly for him.

Maybe it also explains the uncertainty about the handwriting's appearance. Hermione thought it look feminine, yet the "Half-Blood-Prince" reference was clearly Snape's. Could the "Lily's eyes" charm made the handwriting appear feminine?

The idea could even have a role in book seven and Harry starting to suspect Snape's true role. What if Hermione tries to read the notes and can't. What possible explanation could there be?

Well spotted, Ann. Might explain some things and lend support for even more.

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Ann - Nov 6, 2005 8:17 am (#177 of 273)

wynnleaf, in the book HBP, at one point fairly early on, the narrator mentions that Harry hasn't read all the marginal notes, but that they seemed to deal with more than just potions. This must have been before he tried the Levicorpus spell (which spell seems to me ensures that the handwriting is Snape's, since he claims to have invented it, and the notes show a lot of crossing out and revision).

I don't think Harry ever had trouble reading the notes, though. What the book says, I think, is that he had trouble reading the printed instructions through all the notes and revisions. Once he tries to read the notes, although they're in tiny writing, he doesn't seem to have any difficulties.

(I'd check these with the book and give chapter and verse, but it would mean disturbing the cat who has settled on my lap!)

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Soul Search - Nov 6, 2005 8:27 am (#178 of 273)

Ann, heaven forbid, don't disturb the cat! I think you are right about Harry's understanding the notes.

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wynnleaf - Nov 6, 2005 8:36 am (#179 of 273)

Ann,

Thanks for the reference!

I like your ideas, especially about the notes possibly being charmed so that only "Lily's eyes" can read them (and Severus, of course).

But a problem in your timetable of Lily and Severus' friendship/whatever being broken after the end of 5th year is that the potions book is a 6th year book.

I know we've looked at the possibility of Severus using this book, and others of his mom's, for years prior to 6th year, but if Severus and Lily were working together in potions class, then I'd think the notes in the 6th year book would mean it would have to be 6th year potions class.

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Choices - Nov 6, 2005 12:40 pm (#180 of 273)

Valfunde - "Lily got along well with Slughorn and he made jokes to her how she should be in Slytherin."

Just because Lily got on well with Slughorn, doesn't mean she could be friendly with Snape. After all Slughorn is a teacher, pleasant and gregarious. Snape is a loner, sullen, defensive and not exactly the life of the party. It's possible, but I don't think it would be easy to make friends with him, especially for a Gryffindor.

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me and my shadow 813 - Nov 6, 2005 1:34 pm (#181 of 273)

Ann - nice posts. Thanks for your thoughts.

A while back someone mentioned Lily and Severus meeting on the train in first year, like Ron sitting down with Harry. I like that idea and could easily imagine a "pensieve memory" showing us this in book 7. I'd say if that was the case, perhaps through the years Lily and Severus sat exclusively together in potions. Ernie MacMillon of Hufflepuff sits with our Gryffindor trio in potions in book 6. So it's not a rule that houses must sit separately.

I agree about the Slug Club, though. So far all we've seen is Slughorn shooting questions to everyone, and everyone feeling a bit uncomfortable. Sounds like Lily got on with him but that doesn't mean Slug Clubs were a hoot. If anything, I'd see him making Lily center stage like Riddle, only not by her choosing.

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T Vrana - Nov 6, 2005 2:19 pm (#182 of 273)

Ann- I love the idea of Lily's eyes being able to read the HBP's writing!

Choices- It may not have been easy to like Snape, but I get the feeling Lily was rather special. I’m certain she was confident and not easily put off.

I do like the idea of Lily and Snape meeting either on the train or in Diagon Alley buying supplies, and having a friendship of sorts. Perhaps they were both put off by James' arrogance, in the same way Harry is put off by Malfoy's....

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Solitaire - Nov 6, 2005 2:57 pm (#183 of 273)

Snape's fascination with the Dark Arts seems to me to be the biggest obstacle to a friendship with Lily. The way Sirius talked, it was an important reason for James's hatred of Snape.

I do believe Lily knew Snape was half-blood, though, from the way she reacted to him in the Pensieve scene when he called her a Mudblood. If she did know, she did not rat him out to his peers. However, I suspect that any previous friendship that may have existed between them went down the drain at that point.

Solitaire

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wynnleaf - Nov 6, 2005 3:07 pm (#184 of 273)

Choices,

Remember I said a few posts back that I'd known of a close friendship that the Lily/Severus idea reminds me of? In that case, the girl in question said -- when asked why she could put up with the remarkably acerbic tongue of the guy, that drove almost everyone else away -- she considered it a challenge. She also came to the conclusion that the very sarcastic, cutting way of talking was actually a test of sorts. If you could "pass" the test (which practically no one did), you could become friends. "Passing" the test for her meant being able to not take the cutting, bitter remarks too seriously, and always have a "cheeky" (to use Slughorn's expression) or otherwise witty answer as a comeback.

This may have nothing to do with a possible Lily and Severus friendship, but having seen something like that actually work in real life, I at least think it's a possibility.

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Saracene - Nov 6, 2005 3:16 pm (#185 of 273)

I definitely think that, if Lily and Snape were friends at any time at all, it would have been some time during the sixth year. I know I've said this a few times before, but I just don't detect any intimacy between them two in the Pensieve scene, none at all. On the other hand, a smaller NEWT class would have meant that they'd have a chance for closer interaction than before. And sixteen years old would have been a prime time for Snape to get his nose out of his beloved Dark Arts a little bit and pay attention to what a catch Lily was, Smile

Their friendship, if it was such, would also have to be something that few people, if any, were aware of. I think so mostly because of the way everyone reacted when Harry told them of how Snape had told DD that he was sorry Harry's parents were dead. Lupin's immediate reaction is, "but he hated James!", and it doesn't occur to anyone to suggest that it might have had something to do with Lily. If anyone had even a shred of an impression that Lily and Snape had a connection at any point, I’m sure someone would have brought it up. The way it was, they all seem to accept Harry's words that Snape obviously didn't think his mother was worth a damn.

Interesting though that as far as I can remember Slughorn wasn't present at the scene when Harry explained about DD's reason for trusting Snape...

I don't necessarily think that there's major significance to Harry being able to make out HBP's writing as opposed to Ron. There's no suggestion that there's some sort of magical interference at work, and some people are just better at reading handwriting. I always have to go for help to a colleague when I need to make sense of what someone scribbled on a fax or letter, Smile

And even if there was some sort of Lily-centered spell on the book, I wouldn't expect it to be hereditary.

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Solitaire - Nov 6, 2005 3:20 pm (#186 of 273)

I should think any friendship with Muggle-born Lily would probably have been abandoned once Snape began to seek the company of the older Slytherins who would eventually become DEs. Friendship with Lily would have been too risky for someone like Snape, who would certainly have wanted to gain the respect of people like Bella and her other cohorts and be a part of Voldemort's inner circle. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire

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wynnleaf - Nov 6, 2005 3:27 pm (#187 of 273)

On Saracene and Solitaire's posts...

I, too, think they were likely friends in 6th year. If there is any connection between the potions book and Lily, then they were friends that year. However, if they were friends that year, what is it about the pensieve scene that is "Snape's Worst Memory?"

I should think any friendship with Muggle-born Lily would probably have been abandoned once Snape began to seek the company of the older Slytherins who would eventually become DEs.

It's worth remembering that DE's like Lucius were a good deal older than Severus and had long since graduated when he was in NEWT level. Somewhere, haven't we learned that Narcissa didn't go to Hogwarts? I'd assume the same for Bellatrix if that was the case.

I don't think we know of other DE's who were in Hogwarts around the same time as Severus. Do we? If anyone knows of any, please mention them.

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Solitaire - Nov 6, 2005 3:44 pm (#188 of 273)

If Snape went into the DEs after leaving Hogwarts--as I believe he did--this would probably mean that he had been in touch with former Slytherins-turned-DEs while he was still in Hogwarts. We know he was into the Dark Arts while he was at Hogwarts. I still can't see Lily consorting with someone known to be so enamored with that area of magic ... and it seems to have been generally known.

Solitaire

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Saracene - Nov 6, 2005 3:51 pm (#189 of 273)

Well, it's worth remembering that the Pensieve memory was not the only memory Snape removed from his mind. I think the book mentions that he's removed three of them.

As to why he'd consider it one of his worst, I don't really see the need to seek any reason other than that, in this memory, he's been so horribly humiliated in public (especially if James did in fact removed his pants). Snape's reaction to Harry seeing it, "Having fun? Amusing man, your father, wasn't he?" IMO suggests that this memory is all to do with James.

I just think that if Snape indeed loved Lily and was a partial cause of her death, he'd have much, much worse memories connected with her than him calling her a mudblood. I shudder to think, for example, how he would have felt after Lily was murdered.

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deletedaccount - Nov 6, 2005 4:54 pm (#190 of 273)

Maybe Snape's father was related to the Evans family and that was why Snape visited the Evans family. The Evans family lived in Spinners End near the Snapes. Petunia never liked the Snapes because they were abnormal to her.

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Choices - Nov 6, 2005 5:20 pm (#191 of 273)

A couple of people have mentioned that they think if Lily and Severus were friends it was likely to be in 6th year, but that is just when Lily and James were becoming close and then falling in love. I just can't see James wanting her to be friends with his arch-enemy Snape and I can't see her having the time to pal around with a Slytherin boy when she and James were starting to spend so much time together. I seriously doubt James would have wanted Snape tagging along on his dates with Lily, nor do I think Snape would have wanted to be around James at all.

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Saracene - Nov 6, 2005 5:42 pm (#192 of 273)

I thought it was mentioned that James and Lily started to go out in the final year? Which would be year 7, not 6.

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Ann - Nov 6, 2005 5:54 pm (#193 of 273)

The HBP Potions book has to have been in use during Snape and Lily's fifth year, at least by them. Snape worked out the Levicorpus spell on its pages, and that spell was in use by all sorts of people that year, according to Lupin. It could be that Snape and Lily were looking ahead, and working privately through the 6th year book; or it could be that students were smarter (or more docile) 20 years ago--that's what everyone always says, anyway--and they did that book in 5th year. Or, of course, JKR may have made a mistake. After all, the HBP was supposed to have turned up in book 2! But whatever the case, I think that they must have been friends before the incident Harry saw in the pensieve, and not afterwards.

That incident is not labeled "Snape's Worst Memory" by anything in the narrative, but by JKR in her chapter title. We don't see any of Snape's other memories that lesson, so that has got to be the one referred to, and I think it's because it is the memory of Snape's insulting Lily so badly that he loses all her respect and affection. Their relationship before that may not have been all that obvious to others, particularly if it was limited to the Potions classroom and perhaps a summer visit. James (obsessed by Lily, clearly) might have noticed, but not the others (Lupin, McGonagall). They also wouldn't necessarily have known if Snape visited her over the summer holidays. (They can't have been related, by the way, since Dumbledore says Harry has no other living relatives.)

I think Lily wouldn't be put off by the Dark magic--she'd want to reform him, change his mind, and show him that it wasn't necessary.

I also am grateful to whomever pointed out that the one time Slughorn doesn't associate Harry's apparent potions skills with Lily is the time that Snape is present. I hadn't noticed that, and I think it's an excellent observation. To corroborate it, I might note that in "The Phoenix Lament" we're told:

“Snape!” ejaculated Slughorn, who looked the most shaken, pale and sweating. "Snape! I taught him! I thought I knew him!"

This sounds to me that Slughorn, like Dumbledore, trusted Snape for himself, and perhaps trusted in the memory of his love for Lily. Unlike the others, he didn't just trust him because Dumbledore said to (I don't think he would.) That's why he's the most shocked and upset. Slughorn is very tied in and knows all the gossip through his friends--he must have known that Snape was a DE. He's such a timid man, and yet he even invites Snape to his Christmas party. I think he trusted Snape because he knows about Snape's love for Lily, and can't imagine that he would still be loyal to Voldemort after her murder.

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me and my shadow 813 - Nov 6, 2005 6:10 pm (#194 of 273)

Okay, I’m going to put something out there that may cause a riot.

I'll preface it with a quote from Slughorn in Horcruxes chapter, when Riddle asks about how to encase a horcrux:

“It's natural to feel curious about these things...wizards of a certain caliber have always been drawn to that aspect of magic.”

We know how talented Slughorn thought Riddle was. We know how talented he thought Lily was. His experience may in fact be that it is not uncommon for young, extraordinary witches and wizards to explore. I posted a while back a few examples of this, including Ginny (a gifted witch according to JKR) thinking it was lucky that Harry used Sectumsempra on Draco in defense of his Crucio curse. Also Harry's itchy finger to try out that spell on McLaggen for no apparent reason.

I believe we've been told that James hated the Dark Arts. I know of no "canon" that says this of Lily.

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Diagon Nilly - Nov 6, 2005 6:56 pm (#195 of 273)

Don't forget, Advanced Potions Making was Snape's mother's book. He already had it, and probably read it long before sixth year, therefore could easily have worked out Levicorpus and other jinxes in its pages at any time before his sixth year at Hogwarts. If Snape was anything like Hermione in terms of academic studiousness (and he probably was), he probably knew that book very well before sixth year potions. I could see him carrying it around like any young boy would carry around their favorite comic book Smile

If he and Lily were friends before sixth year and especially potions partners, then he may have shown her that book and practiced advanced potions making togther before the class that necessitated using it. I could see Snape enjoying working on advanced concepts with a student as adept at potion making as he was... as I’m sure he would have respected the input from such a fellow clever student.

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Saracene - Nov 6, 2005 6:59 pm (#196 of 273)

I don't know... IMO you need to have a specific sort of mindset, apart from mere talent, to be drawn to Dark Arts.

It's true that Harry itched to try out that spell, but once he saw what it did, he was horrified - he didn't go, "wow, what an amazing spell!" And when Harry listens to Snape's poetic speech about Dark Arts in the first DADA class, his reaction is disbelief that anyone would view Dark Arts in that way.

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wynnleaf - Nov 6, 2005 8:34 pm (#197 of 273)

And when Harry listens to Snape's poetic speech about Dark Arts in the first DADA class, his reaction is disbelief that anyone would view Dark Arts in that way.

But I don't think his reaction was really disbelief that anyone would view the Dark Arts in such a way. I think, just like Hermione seemed to, that he was reacting to that speech because it was Snape that said it. As Hermione pointed out, Harry had said more or less the same thing the year before. It wasn't the viewpoints he was reacting against -- they were his own viewpoints as well. But when he heard them out of Severus' mouth, he immediately viewed them with a negative spin.

Now -- how that relates to me and my shadow's comment. In some essentials, Hermione seemed to think Harry and Severus were saying about the same thing as regards the Dark Arts. So it's possible to have an interest in the Dark Arts and it not necessarily be an unhealthy interest. So yes, I think Lily could have had an interest in the Dark Arts. That doesn't mean that she ever had any temptation to go down the path of DE's.

Further, it is the opinion of James, Sirius, and Lupin that Severus came to Hogwarts up to his eyebrows in the Dark Arts. The degree to which that was really true, or how much it just seemed that way when he'd have perhaps arrived at Hogwarts being a Slytherin and knowing, maybe like Hermione, a lot about magic well above his year, is hard to tell. I’m not saying Lupin wasn't being honest, but it may have been in part their (the Marauder's) perception, rather than the exact truth.

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Madame Librarian - Nov 6, 2005 8:50 pm (#198 of 273)

During their 5th year, Snape calls Lily a filthy mudblood (this based on the memory we see in the pensieve). No friendship there. Almost no chance of it developing. Lily is a tough one, however, she doesn't let silly name-calling bother her much, especially when the insult is delivered by a Slytherin loner with greasy hair who's snubbed by even his own fellow purebloods (wait...don't launch those dungbombs yet...I know we know he's half-blood, but...)

Sixth year. Oy, poor Lily is teamed up with Snape in Potions class. They share a text or at least refer to his more than hers since he seems to have studied up ahead of time and is very well prepared. Lily is no slouch, she loves excelling at things and has decided to make the best of a bad situation by working hard to get along with her lab partner. Snape, a little stunned that she even agrees to the pairing, is just as interested in impressing everyone with his superior Potions abilities, and keeps his snide remarks and nasty behavior in check. They make a formidable team actually.

Then, Lily casually flips through the book Snape is using and lands upon the HBP inscription. What? This greasy git who's been letting everyone assume that because he's a Slyth, because he's so aloof and sneering that he's pureblood is really...what...a half-blood!? Whoa, that's huge, she thinks, especially in light of the nasty thing he called her just last term. She confronts him with this and worms the story out of him. He caves--tells all about his mum and dad and miserable childhood. In his limited way, he bares his heart to her and how important it is in the Wizarding world, especially as a Slyth, that he be perceived as pureblood. The scribble in the book was just his own personal venting of his deepest, most conflicted view of his own identity.

Lily, clever girl, sort of gets it. She can sympathize a bit because she does realize that for someone like Snape, someone who is not naturally likeable, blood status might be the only asset he can depend on. She agrees to keep his secret, no worries.

Snape is again stunned that Lily would even understand this at all, but he slowly lets his defenses down and they form an edgy friendship. Their Potions work gets even better than before and this pleases both of them. The friendship may be a bit lopsided with Lily keeping it casual and quiet while Snape thinks it might grow into something more, but that's a different issue that I’m not really addressing here. I’m just speculating as to the timing, the circumstances and the motivation for their relationship to improve beyond the name-calling incident.

Ciao. Barb

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Honour - Nov 6, 2005 9:55 pm (#199 of 273)

me and my shadow 813, thats quite an interesting idea. I've always thought that Lily was painted a little too 'Lily white and pure'. I wonder, if she and Severus did dabble in the dark arts? this could be where James' aversion of the dark arts as well as his dislike of Severus may stem from. Maybe James could see 'his' Lily slipping over to the 'Dark side' ... It was a thought guys, we have to do something to while away the time until the 7th book comes out : )...

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Saracene - Nov 7, 2005 2:59 am (#200 of 273)

I wish we had more backstory and had an idea whether Snape really wanted everyone to think that he was a pureblood when he was at school. He doesn't really make a fuss about it either way as a grown-up.

I've mentioned this before, but I really don't think anyone would find it strange that someone who was a half-blood would show derision towards a Muggle-born. If you're someone who takes the whole blood thing seriously, then naturally you'd feel superior to someone who was even lower on the wizard blood hierarchy than you are. That's the whole vicious class system for you.

And I imagine that if Lily found out that Snape felt like he needed to hide his muggle parent from the world, she'd probably feel not unlike Hagrid did after that conversation with Madame Maxine where she hotly denied her half-giant blood. I think she'd be pretty scornful that someone should hide who they are because they're anxious to be accepted by the racist snobs.

Lady Arabella Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:27 pm

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Madame Librarian - Nov 7, 2005 5:18 am (#201 of 273)

I didn't say that Lily condoned Snape's attitude, whether it be keeping his half-blood status a secret or scorning a mudblood over a half-blood. I just think she was sympathetic to Snape himself once she understood his background and his desire to succeed. I envisioned a friendship or at least a truce based on a "agree to disagree" kind of deal (something familiar to Forum members, eh?) and the mutual interest in excelling at Potions. They both had good minds and natural talent (or talent based on hard work), so they avoided the other attitude issue once they had it out, and concentrated on their shared academic interest. I’m thinking that is at least a feasible backstory scenario that would take maybe a page or two (myabe less in the hands of a good writer) to set the stage for some important piece of information about Lily and Snape that will be bared in book 7.

Ciao. Barb

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wynnleaf - Nov 7, 2005 6:13 am (#202 of 273)

One of the problems here is that we really have no solid clues to Lily's personality to be able to reasonably guess at what kind of person she'd have been able to be friends with. We know she eventually came to love and married James, but the only real picture we get of his personality is what we saw in the pensieve scene, which wasn't very nice, although we assume he matured past those kinds of arrogant and bullying attitudes.

Maybe that's why, for lack of any other personality clues to tie to Lily, I tend to think of her as JKR's personality. Maybe that's not valid, but it seems to me the only thing there really is to go on. JKR says that the Slytherins have good qualities and you have to take the good with the bad, so I tend to assume that Lily would have thought the same. JKR has said she really enjoys writing Snape's character, so I tend to think Lily would at least have found his character pretty interesting.

We really haven't got any evidence that Lily in school had the same hatred of all things Dark like James and Sirius. We don't have any evidence that she was only friends with those in her house. Harry is more like Lily than James. He's able to form a friendship with Luna, from another house, and fall for Cho Chang, also from another house. Further, he's not so completely turned off by all the Dark Arts as James -- he's willing to try out hexes and curses in the potions book notes, as well as try several times to use the Crucio curse. Harry didn't instantly dislike Draco because of his interest in the Dark Arts, but because of his elitist attitudes. So if Lily is a bit like Harry, and possibly mirroring JKR's attitudes toward her characters, I think it's entirely possible that she'd form a friendship with Severus Snape.

I find the assumption that Severus had blood purity elitist notions a bit surprising. We know from Slughorn that not all Slytherins were that way. Since we still have no idea why Severus joined the DE's, we can't just assume it was a blood purity issue. But most importantly, his use of the term "half-blood" in his own private name for himself, seems in complete contradiction to the notion that he was trying to distance himself from his muggle roots. You might check post #49, in the "Snape Wants to Kill Voldemort Himself" thread, for my thoughts on the use of the name "Prince" based on my own lifelong use of the name "Wynn" (a family name). I use "Wynn" because I like the name a lot and those ancestors were cool. I always use "wynn" in screen names. It doesn't indicate anything whatsoever about which side of my family I prefer. I love and am proud of both sides. And "Prince" is definitely a cool name, especially with "the" in the title. I’m surprised he'd use "half-blood" with that title if he in any way thought it watered down the impact of the title.

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me and my shadow 813 - Nov 7, 2005 9:11 am (#203 of 273)

It seems crucial that JKR is using four houses, representing different aspects of the human condition, to bring to light the fact that we All have All these qualities inside of us individually. The percentages and ratios will be unique to each of us, but "uniting the houses" is a metaphor for unifying all parts of one's soul, even the parts we may not like.

Of course this is evident in the above posts regarding Harry's reaction to Snape describing the Dark Arts. Harry is projecting onto Snape, to use psychology. He is unaware of the similarities between them. Of course Snape has his own psychological blocks for projecting his hatred/jealousy of James onto Harry.

I feel we are being shown this complexity of character within most of the major personalities in the books. As far as Lily, I'd think, like Ginny and her fondness of hexes, that Lily and other gifted witches would familiarize themselves with Dark Arts. I believe there was a quote something like "just because DD doesn't use Dark Arts doesn't mean he doesn't know them". (Paraphrasing there, but it's close)

It's interesting that James was always so against Dark Arts but he finds it amusing to go around hexing everyone in the corridors for the heck of it, according to Lily. It seems very unaware of a pot calling the kettle black...again, psychology 101.

And wasn't it Sirius saying to Harry in OoP, there's not just black and white, "good wizards" and DE's.

To see the world as strongly defined good and evil is a very dangerous thing. I could go on and on...

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Saracene - Nov 7, 2005 3:08 pm (#204 of 273)

I don't really finding convincing the argument that since Harry is a lot like his mother and is able to form relationships with people from other houses, it is then perfectly plausible for Lily to form friendship with a Slytherin. This rather glosses over the fact that, by all evidence we've seen so far, Slytherins are something of a house apart from everyone else. Yes, Harry befriends Luna and is friendly with Ernie McMillan and Cedric, who are Hufflepuffs. But we haven't seen him, or in fact any Ravenclaw, Gryffindor or Hufflepuff, form any sort of friendship or tie with someone who was a Slytherin. I know that JKR -says- that we must not think that all Slytherin students are bad - but I don't see that she's actually backed that notion up in her writing; if, in Harry's time, there are decent Slytherins around who make friends with people from other houses, well, where are they? Was there one single Slytherin in Harry's DA group?

I’m not saying all that because I think that there's no way Lily could have been friends with a Slytherin, rather that such friendship, if such existed, would have been pretty unusual and would have had a lot of hurdles to overcome.

Also, I don't think it's fair to lump -all- hexes and jinxes into Dark Arts corner and say that James was obviously a hypocrite and Ginny was attracted to Dark Arts. Otherwise you'd have to conclude that Fred and George's joke shop is a nest of Dark Arts. Surely there's a big gulf between a jinx that hangs you up upside down and a curse like Sectumsempra that is designed specifically to wound and spill blood and potentially kill.

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Ann - Nov 7, 2005 3:47 pm (#205 of 273)

If you look at JKR's web site, in the notes on Edits on the Bulletin Board page, there are actually two possibilities where she's edited out bits that might have moderated our view of Slytherin. One was the Weasley cousin who was supposed to be sorted into Slytherin and feed the trio all sorts of information that we ultimately got from other sources. The other was the conversation between Draco and Theodore Nott, who, although a DE son, is not, I think, shown doing anything terrible. So we might have had a more rounded picture without the edits. But she did have the Sorting Hat consider putting Harry there (although the list of attributes the Hat gives, includes the virtues for all four houses). And, of course, Slughorn was a student once, and Phineas Nigellus, and they're both good.

The reason there were no Slytherins in Harry's DA group was that Harry is prejudiced against Slytherin. The period when James and Lily were in school was just at the beginning of Voldemort's first rise. That Regulus Black, at least a year younger than they were, could join the Death Eaters without realizing what he was getting himself into shows that he hadn't completely shown his true colors, even at the time James and Lily graduated. I think Slytherins were probably less divided from the other houses than than they are during Harry's school years.

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Solitaire - Nov 7, 2005 9:57 pm (#206 of 273)

I don't think his reaction was really disbelief that anyone would view the Dark Arts in such a way. I think, just like Hermione seemed to, that he was reacting to that speech because it was Snape that said it.

Not necessarily. It was how Snape talked about the Dark Arts that struck Harry. “It was surely one thing to respect the Dark Arts as a dangerous enemy, another to speak of them, as Snape was doing, with a loving caress in his voice?” (HBP Ch. 9)

Remember ... Just because Harry doesn't have a lot of emotional clarity about Snape--due to Snape's despicable treatment of himself, his rotten attitude towards Sirius and James, and the role he played in James and Lily's ultimate demise--doesn't necessarily mean Snape isn't a jerk.

Solitaire

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Honour - Nov 8, 2005 1:06 am (#207 of 273)

‘It was surely one thing to respect the Dark Arts as a dangerous enemy, another to speak of them, as Snape was doing, with a loving caress in his voice? ‘ (HBP CH.9)

I think Solitare, this quote is so very descriptively and perfectly correct, Severus would speak of the Dark Arts with this type of passion. By all accounts Severus has yearned for this post, and again he has a 'special talent' and affinity with the Dark Arts so once he was given this post of course he would be ecstatic" ... Anyone who has wanted something for such a long time, who has been constantly passed over year after year, seeing incompetents given the job when you know in your heart of hearts that you could do the job one hundred times better is a bitter pill to swallow ... but to finally have that post given to you I think anyone in the same position whether they be the DA teacher, the transfiguration teacher, whatever, would feel the same way too! OK now, what was the point I was trying to make? :-)

On another tangent and to fall in line with the thread, do you think Severus' 'passion' for the Dark Arts may have 'seduced' Lily into being interested as well? Just a thought...

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me and my shadow 813 - Nov 8, 2005 2:06 am (#208 of 273)

I’m just going to say again that studying the Dark Arts does not make one evil, bad, a DE. It's not black and white. I could easily see Lily wanting to know "Sectumsempra" in her sixth year. It was a scary time, if I have the chronology right. It's called survival.

Snape was labeled "up to his ears in the Dark Arts" by his adversaries. But let's look at a parallel via "worst memory". Who was acting like Draco? James -- who was acting like Harry? Severus, minding his own business as James approached him with a verbal attack. Nothing is as it seems...

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Choices - Nov 8, 2005 11:23 am (#209 of 273)

‘It was surely one thing to respect the Dark Arts as a dangerous enemy, another to speak of them, as Snape was doing, with a loving caress in his voice? ‘ (HBP CH.9)

It is just a few sentences later that Hermione tells Harry that what Snape said reminded her of Harry describing what it was like to face Voldemort. Harry had spoken in the same way as Snape had.

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wynnleaf - Nov 8, 2005 11:24 am (#210 of 273)

I agree with me and my shadow (doing that a lot lately), as well as lots of others here.

Saracene said I know that JKR -says- that we must not think that all Slytherin students are bad - but I don't see that she's actually backed that notion up in her writing; if, in Harry's time, there are decent Slytherins around who make friends with people from other houses, well, where are they?

I'm taking this as hints and preparation for what we're going to see in the future. I think JKR doesn't want us to think all Slytherins are bad and unlikable because she's going to be showing us some friendships in Book 7 -- either new ones, or revealing old ones (Severus/Lily??). I agree, we haven't seen much evidence of it yet, at least not with students. But I think she's trying to say that it could be there nevertheless, so we won't be too surprised when she reveals it.

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Pinky Prime - Nov 9, 2005 8:17 pm (#211 of 273)

I know that some of this belongs in another thread but I hope that it relates to the Snape Evans Sisters Theory. Catching up on threads from the beginning before I post gives me longwinded replies. Hope to be up to speed soon.

Petunia is jealous of her sister’s attention by her parents. She had magic but never used it because she wanted to be better than her sister. She convinced herself that she didn’t need magic to be what she was. The Hogwarts Staff and/or the MoM would have identified her. But I think she denied that. She may have done odd things like her sister or blamed Lily for doing certain things she did herself, out of spite. (Sisters!)

They do detect magic in muggle neighborhoods like Tom Riddle’s Orphanage. Maybe they sensed magic in a particular place (like Harry using the Patronus Charm)possibly in the Evan’s home and investigated it. Only to find one sister, Lily, confessed to using it. How could Petunia not have magic if she been enchanted by DD. Petunia and Lily both have the LOVE-Blood-Bond that will protect Harry. DD may have known all along that Petunia could be a witch - secret keeper.

After all, Tom Riddle’s mother was thought not to have magic, or be a squib but I don’t know. I think there was a reference to her by DD about her declining to use her abilities. Could Petunia have been the same as Riddle’s mother? She had a choice! DD reminded her of it.

Maybe Petunia thought it was her responsibility that Lily died at the hands of LV whom she had heard about. She felt guilty that her sister died because she felt that she could have protected her if only she had used her powers. Thus Petunia (PET thought she was a house elf) took Harry in and agreed to raise him.

Switching gears…

If Snape did love or like Lily a lot and she was trying to help him out of his situation with James why would he call her a mudblood? They would have had to have broken ties with each other in a prior incident. Maybe Snape meet Petunia thinking herself better than him and her sister took offense. That Awful Boy!

I don’t think that the Ministry obliviates the memories of those connected to the WW because Petunia who is connected and has magic mentioned Dementors. No she is well known even to LV but he knows that he cannot touch Harry there.

If only Snape hadn’t hated Lily’s sister he may not have even passed on the Prophesy to LV. (Reaching) Oooops! Snape, an unaccomplished occlumence show love as a DE to U NO WHO.

Better get some rest…

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T Vrana - Nov 11, 2005 6:58 am (#212 of 273)

I can't remember where, but I thought JK said in an interview that Petunia is a muggle. Will try to find it...

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Ann - Nov 11, 2005 10:25 am (#213 of 273)

T Vrana: It's the Edinburgh Book Day chat--you can find it on JKR's web site. She said "She's a Muggle, but..." There has been much discussion about the "but", of course, but I don't think it can mean she's a witch. Or a squib, which is the question that was asked. I've wondered about the possibility that she was a witch but did something so awful that she was transformed into a Muggle as punishment. (Hagrid in PS when he realizes that he'd given Quirrell/Voldemort the means to get past Fluffy hints at such a punishment, saying he should be made to live as a Muggle.)

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T Vrana - Nov 11, 2005 10:41 am (#214 of 273)

thanks, Ann...Interesting thought. Have to mull that one over. What could Petunia have done? Was she given a choice, Azkaban or muggle?

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Saracene - Nov 12, 2005 1:52 am (#215 of 273)

Petunia couldn't possibly be a Squib anyway. If I gather it correctly, the term "Squib" is used to describe someone who is born to wizarding parents but has no magical abilities. Petunia and Lily's parents were muggles; a person born to muggle parents without any magical abilites would be just a regular muggle.

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Ann - Nov 12, 2005 8:11 am (#216 of 273)

Of course, Saracene, that made it easy for JKR--the question was a dumb one. But she seemed to find it close to the truth in some way, and said so. That's why I thought that maybe she was a witch, too, and then lost her magic. After all, siblings often are (look at the Muggleborn Creeveys). Do we know of any Muggleborn who has non-magical siblings, besides Lily?

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Solitaire - Nov 12, 2005 11:19 am (#217 of 273)

Do we know if Justin Finch-Fletchley has sibs? If so, are they magical? Was Hermione's originally-planned sister to be a Muggle or a Witch?

As the Deputy Headmistress when Harry attended Hogwarts, McGonagall sent the Hogwarts acceptance/notification letters to the kids in Harry's generation. If she held that position when Lily and Pet were kids, she probably would have known if Petunia was magical.

In PS/SS, after she has been watching the Dursleys all day as a cat, she tells Dumbledore, "You couldn't find two people who are less like us." I realize that alone does not mean Pet couldn't be a witch. But in the movie, she actually calls the Dursleys "the worst sort of Muggles imaginable." Unless she was not yet sending out the letters to prospective students when Pet and Lily were kids--and therefore couldn't have known--that seems like a pretty big error to allow into the movie. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire

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Choices - Nov 12, 2005 11:57 am (#218 of 273)

I think the "but" may have been a hint that Petunia (late in life) is the one who does magic in a pinch. I have never particularly bought into that theory, but that is what the "but" might mean in my opinion. I have always thought it would be a Squib who does the magic - maybe Filch or Mrs. Figg, but Petunia is definitely a popular contender for that honor.

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Cass Lass - Nov 13, 2005 8:39 am (#219 of 273)

Just discovered this thread and think it is great! My mind is reeling a little though from reading all the posts in one go! I latched onto Snape/Lily the moment I read the Snape's Worst Memory chapter in OotP.

I started wondering about what I thought (and still think) was Snape's complex relationship with Harry round about PoA. Yeah he hates Harry because he looks like James, is forever breaking the rules, etc. But I wondered then why he would be so anxious to protect Harry by refeering the Quidditch match. I know Dumbledore told Harry all about the debt Snape owed James and so on but I just thought there might be more to it than that.

Remember Snape looking at Harry past Prof Quirrell in PS/SS? Then in GoF, "Further along the table, sitting next the Professor McGonagall, was Snape. His eyes lingered on Harry for a moment as Harry looked at him. His expression was difficult to read." Thoughtful, enigmatic glances? There has to be more to their relationship than Snape hating Harry's father and thus his son. There is only one other link between Harry and Snape (the obvious one being James)and that is Lily. And the only thing left of Lily in the world is her son (yeah those eyes again..) I can imagine Snape looking at Harry and thinking of the son that should have been his! (Yeah I know I've been reading too many Mills And Boon romances Smile

)

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Choices - Nov 13, 2005 10:12 am (#220 of 273)

If indeed Snape had feelings for Lily, maybe he stares at Harry trying to see past the resemblance to James, searching for those bits of Lily in Harry - like his eyes.

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Diagon Nilly - Nov 13, 2005 10:21 am (#221 of 273)
Edited by Nov 13, 2005 10:22 am

...or maybe Harry will find himself in Voldemort's grasp and Voldy tries to torture Harry by doing something sadistic to Harry's eyes (I’m reaching, but Voldy is the type). Considering the resemblance and Snape's feelings, this may set in motion the redemptive act that's hopefully in store for Snape.

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T Vrana - Nov 13, 2005 12:18 pm (#222 of 273)

Choices- I agree. I think Snape also 'tested' Harry in the very first potions class with those 6th year potions questions (bezoar, DoLD and Wolsbane, a bit unfair) to see if there was more of Lily in Harry than her eyes, since we now know she was "a dab hand" at potions. When Harry 'failed', Snape decided the eyes were all he got from Lily and he was really just like James, so he can go on hating James and Harry.

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Solitaire - Nov 13, 2005 1:25 pm (#223 of 273)

The frustrating (to me, at least) thing about Snape is that just about everything he does can be taken two ways.

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Saracene - Nov 13, 2005 5:35 pm (#224 of 273)

I’m not convinced that Snape asked Harry all those questions to see whether he was like Lily. According to Slughorn, Lily's gift was an intuitive grasp of potion-making - which would come through in practical exercises rather than mere rote recital of book knowledge (which is Hermione's forte and of which Snape is rather dismissive, if you look at his sarcastic comment to Hermione in HBP that her reply is taken word-for-word from a book).

I thought Snape was just picking on Harry like he always likes to do.

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T Vrana - Nov 13, 2005 6:54 pm (#225 of 273)

saracene- Until HBP, I would have agreed. But if there is a Lily connection (and I think there is) and Snape looked at Harry looking just like James, with Lily's eyes, and wondered, he could hardly ask him to whip up a potion to see if he was a natural (that sounds a bit sarcastic and I do not intend it to be). I’m not sure he intended the test to be fair. I think it was a half-hearted attempt at best. I think it is clear that Harry is much more like Lily in many ways. But Snape would very much like to hate James, and Harry, in peace. After all, Harry, in addition to looking just like James, is a physical reminder of Lily, James and Lily's death, Snape's big mistake in telling LV the prophecy, and Snape's betrayal of James and Lily, intended or not.

I just can't dismiss that the Snape's book comes into play in HBP, and two of the three questions arise again as we are all wondering about Lily and Snape (bezoar, DoLD).

Coincidence...?

Lady Arabella Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:29 pm

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me and my shadow 813 - Nov 18, 2005 9:06 am (#226 of 273)

Switching gears for a moment, I thought it may be significant regarding Pet and her possible history with magic...

In HBP Will and Won't chapter with DD and Petunia --

“Albus Dumbledore,” said Dumbledore, when Uncle Vernon failed to effect an introduction. "We have corresponded, of course." Harry thought this an odd way of reminding Aunt Petunia that he had once sent her an exploding letter, but Aunt Petunia did not challenge the term.

This is interesting to me... "we have corresponded" could refer to a letter from Hogwarts to Petunia. We do not know of the process of muggle-born application/acceptance into the school. Perhaps Pet applied but was not accepted. It seems deliberate to mention Harry's thinking it "odd".

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Ann - Nov 18, 2005 9:55 am (#227 of 273)

Me & My Shadow, JKR said on her web site that the Howler saying "Remember my last" that Dumbledore sent to Petunia referred to his most recent letter to her, personally. She also said that this was the letter left with Harry after his parents were killed (and actually, I think Dumbledore said so to Harry, too, in OotP. But I’m too lazy to check.) So "last" means he had corresponded with Petunia before that, she said, and she invited speculation. There has been LOTS.

Harry, not having JKR to explain things for him still didn't realize in HBP that Dumbledore had written her before. I agree that "corresponded" is significant however, since it implies that Petunia wrote back!

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Madame Librarian - Nov 18, 2005 2:54 pm (#228 of 273)

New thought (or maybe so old and I missed it in a previous post)--

Is it possible that Lily befriended Snape during 6th year potions class, and saw him as a potential beau for Petunia? This assumes that she and her sister were still on relatively OK terms, and/or Petunia had expressed some sort of interest in those clever wizard guys Lily kept mentioning. Why Snape? Well, maybe Lily was being a bit vicious about things her sister was pulling on her and this was pay back, or maybe she just honestly felt they'd be a good match since they seemed to have that loner, negative, nerdy but smart and meticulous (in class) type of personality. Maybe Pet wasn't too horrified at first. Maybe she did see some qualities in Snape. But, alas, Snape had really fallen for Lily and was mortified that he was handed off to the horsey-faced muggle sister. That's when he became that "horrid boy."

Just one of a g'zillion theories in the Big City.

Ciao. Barb

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kage - Nov 19, 2005 12:47 am (#229 of 273)

Pet?! Oh no, how mean, please don't do that to our little sunshine!

That's when he became that "horrid boy."
I'd rather say: That's when he became the "horryfied boy"! ;-)

Seems there are plenty of things "worse than death"

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Diagon Nilly - Nov 19, 2005 9:17 am (#230 of 273)

O' to be a fly on the wall for that blind date!

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Solitaire - Nov 19, 2005 11:25 am (#231 of 273)

The fact that Dumbledore says "We have corresponded, of course," does not suggest to me that Pet wrote back. I have just considered it a tactful reminder by Dumbledore that he has been aware of what has gone on in that house and of the way she and her family have treated Harry ... sort of like the drinks he conjured when she failed to offer any refreshment to him, as even a well-bred Muggle hostess should do.

Dumbledore definitely has a sense of humor, and he is not above teaching the Dursleys a few darkly humorous lessons in manners:

“... let us assume you have invited me warmly into your house.”
“I would assume that you were going to offer me refreshment, but the evidence so far suggests that that would be optimistic to the point of foolishness.”
And when Uncle Vernon shouts at Dumbledore to get rid of the glasses of mead that were banging against their heads, Dumbledore says, "But it would have been better manners to drink it, you know."

Of course, this is just my take on things ...

Solitaire

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Diagon Nilly - Nov 19, 2005 1:27 pm (#232 of 273)

Alright, I don't know if this is the place...I guess it is. I had this really weird dream this morning after thinking about Snape, the Evans sisters, and JKR's comments about someone once loved Snape.

In my dream, Snape and Lily were friends at school however Snape pretty much obsessively crushed on Lily. In a friendly effort to play matchmaker with Snape, she invites him home to meet her sister who is trying to control her jealousy of Lily as Lily is the gifted pretty sister. Petunia, due to her desire to live vicariously through her sister, ends up going out with Snape who uses this as an opportunity to get closer to Lily and exploits Petunia's feelings. Petunia ends up crushing on Snape only to get her heart broken because it's essentially unrequited. If course it ends badly after a series of events starting with Snape spurning Lily with the "mudblood" comment, and ending with Lily dating with James. Snape, in turn avoids Lily by dumping Petunia which forever hardens Petunia against anything having to do with wizards, her "perfect" sister (who set them up in the first place), and that "awful boy" she briefly fell for. She also rebounds with the muggliest muggle she could find: Vernon Dursley.

Em...sorry, it WAS a dream so it seems pretty soap opera. But there you go. Gosh, what a nerd I am dreaming of elaborate Harry Potter love triangles! Heheheh Very Happy

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me and my shadow 813 - Nov 19, 2005 4:30 pm (#233 of 273)

Diagon Nilly, that's a great dream. Madam Librarian's sentiments, and I posted it back on like #6 on this thread. It could be that Lily would try to play matchmaker if she could not return Severus's affections. And when Severus starts talking about Dementors and the Dark Lord, Petunia freaks out and that's how he became "that awful boy". It's a decent theory I think.

On another subject, I'd like to deepen my initial theory of this thread, which stated essentially that Lily gave Severus the nickname and that it was possibly even her handwriting in the potions book...

What if the potions book was Lily's, they worked on all the spells and charms together, and at the end of either their friendship or the 6th year, she "passed down" this precious info-filled book to him and wrote his nickname on the back cover.

My reasons/canon are the following:

We know that clever Hermione says the handwriting was "feminine" but Harry sense masculinity in the tone. (both of them collaborating)
We know that although the handwriting was described as similar to Snape's from OoP, it is not identical (miniscule and cramped versus potions book is small and cramped). And any writing within the margins of a book would be small and cramped...
We know that Harry could read the handwriting but Ron couldn't. Could it be his mother's? It doesn't seem right that Harry could read the handwriting because he saw Snape's in pensieve memory in OoP. There is no reason to believe he took the time to try to read any of it.
We know that Slughorn is still bragging about Lily's potions abilities (and we know her wand was particularly good for charms so she may have been gifted at that as well) so she would be interested in studying both, even perhaps not "innocent" spells
We may safely assume that there was a friendship between Severus and Lily that could have extended beyond the classroom and into free time, in their case studying/library, etc.
We know that Hermione independently studied OWL level in fourth year and NEWT level in fifth year, so Lily could have acquired the book from Sluggy or elsewhere before sixth year. It doesn't have to be Mrs. Prince's.
Snape yells to Harry "I am the Half-Blood Prince", and they are his spells. He does not say "the book was mine!" or "how dare you take my book!"

I will leave it at that for now. It seems the book, as well as the cover of the book which is now on the "new" copy in Sluggy's shelf, will be a plotline. So will Lily's personal life pre-James. Perhaps she wasn't afraid to check out what dark spells were about.

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Ann - Nov 20, 2005 8:54 am (#234 of 273)

Solitaire: ....when she failed to offer any refreshment to him, as even a well-bred Muggle hostess should do.

Even?

Me & my shadow, I don't think a romance between Snape & Petunia is necessary to explain how Petunia knows about Dementors. What she says is "I heard--that awful boy--telling her about them--years ago." We know that she's a busybody, always spying on the neighbors. It seems logical that she'd spy on Lily and her (boy?)friend. And, as I've said before, "that awful boy" is way too mild for someone who has scorned your affection--particularly if it's Snape, who's really good at scorn. I think even Petunia would have used a naughty word, in that case.

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Solitaire - Nov 20, 2005 9:22 am (#235 of 273)

Even we Muggles generally would offer refreshment to a visitor. That is not just the custom of Witches and Wizards.

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Soul Search - Nov 20, 2005 11:13 am (#236 of 273)

Although, Dumbledore was uninvited and unexpected. He was also unwanted. Would you offer refreshments to a pesky salesman that wormed his way into your living room?

On the other hand, the Dursleys didn't offer Arthur Weasley refreshments when he came to fetch Harry in GoF. He was expected, although not invited nor wanted. Vernon specifically said they wouldn't get any dinner, even if they had expected it.

They barely feed Harry, let alone stray wizards that show up at their door, or fireplace.

Question is, how will the Dursleys treat Ron and Hermione when they show up with Harry to stay for a few days? How did Petunia's parents treat Lily's wizarding friends that came to call?

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Ann - Nov 20, 2005 1:40 pm (#237 of 273)

** Sorry, Solitaire, I just thought it was a funny way of putting it, as if Muggles were otherwise less polite. It sounds very Malfoy-esque if you say it in a scathing tone. **

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Solitaire - Nov 20, 2005 2:03 pm (#238 of 273)

I was being silly ... because everyone knows Pet and Vernon think they are superior to those awful Wizards. How ironic for them not to even practice common Muggle courtesies like inviting Dumbledore into their home, offering him a seat, and serving him refreshment.

Solitaire

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hawick girl - Nov 20, 2005 9:18 pm (#239 of 273)

SoulSearch said in post #236

How did Petunia's parents treat Lily's wizarding friends that came to call?

Hmmmm, I think that with the reaction they had of Lily being a witch (I think that Pet said that they were proud, but I don't have my book--I borrowed it out, so I can't check), they would have accepted them easily.

Also, someone said that they thought that maybe Pet applied but was rejected from entry to Hogwarts. The notifications are sent to all kids with magical abilities, but not all kids accept. I think that was said in an interview.

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wynnleaf - Nov 21, 2005 12:51 pm (#240 of 273)

As to DD's, "we have corresponded, of course," comment, I think that means that Petunia had written to him as well. He did not, after all, say, "I have corresponded with you, of course." He said "we." If I said that to someone, it would mean that we had both corresponded previously, not that I had written that person one or more letters, to which he/she had not responded.

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T Vrana - Nov 21, 2005 8:43 pm (#241 of 273)

Some of their correspondence could be those horrible Christmas gifts Harry gets...

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Valfunde - Nov 21, 2005 9:02 pm (#242 of 273)
Edited by Nov 21, 2005 9:09 pm

OK, I’m very glad to know that I’m not the only one who can dream, or in my case, daydream about this Lily & Snape thing. I think that previous posters who believe that Lily gave Severus the nickname Half-Blood Prince are on to something. I have this scenario in my mind of Lily and Severus being potions partners and becoming friends. Lily enjoys Severus' dark humor and intelligence and he enjoys her intellectual sparing with him and her attention. Plus, she's very pretty to boot. When James and Sirius call Severus the other nickname Snape has - Snivellus - Lily makes Severus feel better by giving him her nickname for him - the half-blood prince. I think Lily could very well have given her friend this nickname, plus she knows what Snape considers his deep dark secret - he's a half blood hanging with the Slytherin pure-blood crowd. That's why I think an important aspect of Snape's worst memory is Lily calling him Snivelous and all that that nickname represents to him. He knows he's lost her friendship and respect when she calls him that. He also knows he's "lost" her to James. Just my little daydream...please be kind.

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Solitaire - Nov 21, 2005 9:44 pm (#243 of 273)

What if the original Half-Blood Prince was Eileen? Do we know if she was a pure-blood witch?

Solitaire

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Valfunde - Nov 29, 2005 11:09 am (#244 of 273)

Interesting point, Solitare. We don't know, do we, if Eileen was a pure or a half-blood witch? There is the intense encounter at the end of HBP when Snape says to Harry that he is the "half-blood prince." Was his mother half-blood? Well then, that would make good old Severus the (pause for dramatic effect) quarter-blood prince! Not quite as catchy as the first title, is it?

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wynnleaf - Nov 29, 2005 1:04 pm (#245 of 273)

JKR named the book "Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince." That implies a strong interaction between the two. Since the book ends with Severus claiming that title, I really don't think it was his mom's title. Besides, what guy would take his mom's school-age title as his own??

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Loopy Lupin - Dec 1, 2005 9:58 pm (#246 of 273)

What if Snape had an interest in Petunia, but scorned her and this is the cause of Petunia's distate for magic?

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me and my shadow 813 - Dec 2, 2005 8:31 am (#247 of 273)

Loopy, I touched on that possibility early on in the thread. I thought it may be that Pet calling Snape "awful boy" was out of bitterness due to something like you said. It certainly would add a nice twist to see that in a pensieve memory in book 7. That and Lily having an interest in dark magic in school along with Snape.

Can we infer anything from James saying to Lily in pensieve memory, "Are you going to hex me?" Or was he teasing because he's the one who does all the hexes...I think James could have been quite hypocritical in seeing himself as having some harmless fun and Severus and Lily as dabbling in "bad" hexes.

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me and my shadow 813 - Dec 2, 2005 2:34 pm (#248 of 273)

Continuation on post above...

In addition regarding that pensieve memory, James saw Lily sitting by the lake before he did Levicorpus on Snape. It could be he did it specifically because he knew she'd come over and protect Severus. It seems more and more likely to me that Lily and Severus's friendship was not a secret, and either Lupin or Snape himself will eventually spill it to Harry. Either that or in a hasty moment, we'll see that Snape uses his Patronus in front of Harry and it takes the form of a Lily.

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Saracene - Dec 2, 2005 5:20 pm (#249 of 273)

If the friendship wasn't secret... why doesn't Lupin mention any Lily connection when Harry tells everyone about Snape's role in the prophecy? Lupin goes straight to "but he hated James" and doesn't contradict Harry saying that Snape didn't think his mother was worth a damn.

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wynnleaf - Dec 2, 2005 5:45 pm (#250 of 273)

Well, nobody really says anything in response to that -- one way or the other. And of course, no one would know where Harry got that notion from. Only Lupin knows about Harry seeing the pensieve memory, and he still wouldn't know if Harry would have formed that opinion solely from the pensieve or if there'd been something else said by Severus.

Also, I got the impression that it could be that everyone was a bit surprised at that announcement, but since they were all convinced anyway that Severus had just killed DD, they didn't argue with it.

Lady Arabella Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:31 pm

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Solitaire - Dec 3, 2005 10:53 am (#251 of 273)

Here is an idea for those who believe Snape was in love with Lily. Maybe Snape's Patronus doesn't take the form of a Lily ... maybe it is Lily!

As for Snape/Pet ... she is so hyper-hospital-clean that I cannot see her ever being interested in the greasy-haired, apparently hygiene-deficient Snape.

Saracene, my brain is a bit overloaded these days, and my book is not handy. When does Harry tell everyone about Snape's role in the prophecy? I honestly do not remember.

Solitaire

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Diagon Nilly - Dec 3, 2005 12:01 pm (#252 of 273)

Petunia may be hyper-hospital-clean because she was spurned by the greasy-haired, apparently hygiene-deficient Snape. So she's rebelling against everything she "wanted". In Psychodynamic theory, this is referred to as "Reaction Formation" - The person adopts behavior that is the exact opposite of impulses he or she is afraid to acknowledge.

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me and my shadow 813 - Dec 3, 2005 1:42 pm (#253 of 273)

Diagon Nilly, you took the words right out of my mouth. It could be taken a step further to say that blame/prejudice in itself is a form of denial of one's own traits deemed as "bad".

We don't know what Petunia was like as a child. Too often people marry "normal" people to secure themselves a "normal" life. Let's just assume for Privet Drive, Vernon would be considered "normal". Petunia is desperately clinging to that life, that man, that son, that normal existence. I have no doubt that if she was intrigued with magic as a child, jealous of Lily, crushing on Snape perhaps then scorned, learned about Dementors and Vold and DE's and all the rest, she is soooo determined to live a safe, normal, extra-clean and extra-muggle existence now.

Saracene, when Harry tells everyone about Snape while they are gathered round Bill after tower incident, I feel there is a pregnant pause or an avoidance when Harry says *and he didn't give a damn about my mother either* (paraphrasing). Lupin didn't say "Snape hated James and Lily". And he didn't agree with Harry when he made above remark about his mother. To me, things left out are also significant. Could be reaching here though, of course...

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Saracene - Dec 3, 2005 4:52 pm (#254 of 273)

Solitaire,

I didn't put it exactly right - Harry doesn't really tell everyone about Snape's role in the prophecy. When they're all gathered around after DD's death and Tonks wonders what Snape had told DD to convince him, Harry says that Snape passed on information that made Voldemort hunt his parents and that then later Snape came to DD and said that he didn't realise what he was doing and that he was sorry that they were dead. But he doesn't mention anything specific about the prophecy.

As for the others' reaction to Harry's statement on Snape and what he must have thought of Lily: "Nobody asked how Harry knew this. All of them seemed to be lost in horrified shock, trying to digest the monstrous truth of what had happened."

So no, I don't really see any evidence of avoidance or pregnant pause. Lupin didn't voice agreement with Harry, but he did not disagree either or gave any indication that he might know or suspect more than what Harry thinks.

But it is interesting that Slughorn was missing from that scene...

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Mrs Brisbee - Dec 4, 2005 5:58 am (#255 of 273)

I really can't see Petunia having a crush on Snape. If the two had any sort of encounter that forever influenced how Pet views the magical world, I'd say she was eavesdropping on Lily and Snape and Snape decided to jinx her for it. I think that would fit both of their personalities better. Heck, maybe that's where Petunia got her horsey teeth.

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Solitaire - Dec 4, 2005 9:20 am (#256 of 273)

Thanks, Saracene. I did not remember Harry actually mentioning the prophecy to anyone but Ron and Hermione, so I was confused. My first read was so fast, though, that I either flew past things or have since forgotten them. Perhaps I'll have time for a nice, slow re-read over Christmas holidays. I hope so!

Solitaire

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me and my shadow 813 - Dec 4, 2005 11:53 am (#257 of 273)

I think JKR has left gaps in Lupin's response to Harry bringing up Lily and Snape. I could rephrase "pregnant pause" to "no response" or "avoidance". In my opinion, it happened not only at Bill's bed after tower, but also during "Frosty Christmas" chapter when Harry talks with Lupin about the Half-blood Prince book. I detected a distinct avoidance on Lupin's part. Like he was careful to leave certain things out of the conversation, knowing Harry was not ready to hear the whole story about Severus and Lily. Speculation, obviously, but to me there are definite holes in the Lily/Snape/Slug Club/Potions/HBP connection. A build-up for book 7.

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Ann - Dec 4, 2005 12:27 pm (#258 of 273)

Um...I think it's JKR leaving things out, not Lupin, and you're picking up on her careful evasions. Lupin's response to Harry's (incorrect) statement that Dumbledore trusted Snape because he was sorry that Harry's parents died is "But he hated James!" (paraphrase). That doesn't sound like a calculated evasion to me. He's not connecting Snape with Lily at all.

("Incorrect" because Snape was sorry not when they died, but when they were targeted, and because, as someone pointed out to me, Dumbledore never explicitly says that that is why he trusts Snape.)

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Magic Words - May 19, 2006 8:27 pm (#259 of 273)

I see this thread has been dormant for a while, but I'd like to add my two knuts about the Snape/Lily friendship idea.

The only difficulty I've ever had is with accepting that Lily would be interested in a boy who started his first year at Hogwarts knowing more Dark Arts than most graduating students. That's why I think they would have met early on and struck up a friendship. The sixth year potions book doesn't matter because Snape could have gotten it at any time. Something important to remember, though, is that this would have been before Voldemort became a real threat. The Dark Arts were dangerous, yes, but for kids at Hogwarts at that time, the sense of danger would have been far removed and hypothetical. Lily wouldn't have necessarily made the connection between "knows Dark Arts" and "potential Death Eater" for years, and they probably started to grow apart when she did (fifth or sixth year, I'd guess). The same goes for Slytherin house as a whole. Before Voldemort became a power to be reckoned with, Slytherins would have had similar personalities and might have kept to themselves, and yes, you'd have students like the Lestranges, but there wouldn't be such an "us vs. them" mentality because the rest of the world wouldn't have taken sides in the first war just yet.

About Lily coming up with the "Half-Blood Prince" nickname as a response to "Snivellus"- I love it! I hadn't thought of that. It gives the nickname so much more meaning, and it adds some poignancy to the pensieve scene where Lily calls Snape "Snivellus."

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wynnleaf - May 20, 2006 6:37 am (#260 of 273)
Edited May 20, 2006 7:42 am

Magic Words,

Interesting post.

Grindewald, however, had been defeated a number of years previous (not their generation), but still one imagines that many of his followers would, like LV's followers, come out of Slytherin. Or perhaps other schools. Still, it's not like the students in the Marauders, Lily, and Severus' time wouldn't have been aware of other Dark Lords in fairly recent history.

JKR has not really told us much of anything about Lily, particularly as regards her personality. It's hard to guess for sure what type of person she may have been willing to be friendly with. I know JKR has never said this, but I often imagine that Lily is the character that, in JKR's mind (since it's not in the books obviously), is most like JKR. Whenever I imagine how Lily looked, I tend to think of JKR -- the creator of Harry. Anyway, with that logic, Severus is JKR's favorite character to write -- a "gift of a character" -- so whatever JKR really thinks of Snape (we don't know yet, of course), that's what Lily thought of Severus. A bit wierd reasoning, I know.

I felt HBP hinted a bit that Severus and Lily were at least friendly during the time that Severus was writing notes in the HBP potions book.

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Catherine - May 24, 2006 5:22 am (#261 of 273)

I felt HBP hinted a bit that Severus and Lily were at least friendly during the time that Severus was writing notes in the HBP potions book.

Do you have a particular passage that shows this?

I can remember Slughorn complimenting Lily's ability in Potions, but I do not recall anything in the text (aside from the assumption that Snape and Lily were in N.E.W.T. level Potions class together) that indicates that they were friendly.

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wynnleaf - May 24, 2006 6:53 am (#262 of 273)
Edited May 24, 2006 7:54 am

Catherine,

You're right, there's nothing directly in the text to indicate they ever said one word to each other that year.

However, Harry uses the HBP notes consistently through the year. And consistently Slughorn says it reminds him of Lily. It's not just that "you're talented and your mom was talented," kind of thing. For instance, when Harry uses the HBP notes to brew the Draught to Produce Euphoria, he adds peppermint as is mentioned in the notes. Yet Slughorn says that the peppermint addition is just the kind of thing Lily would do.

Sure, Snape and Lily -- both apparently very creative at potions -- could simply have coincidently been producing very similar work, but that sounds a bit doubtful to me. The very fact that they were both pretty creative makes it less likely that Harry following Snape's directions would look like Lily's work to Slughorn unless Snape and Lily collaborated. Otherwise, one would think two highly creative students would have been doing distinctly different work.

Of course, this could be completely wrong. Very Happy

That's why I said it looks like a possible hint, nothing definite at all.

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Catherine - May 24, 2006 7:49 am (#263 of 273)
Edited May 24, 2006 8:56 am

That's why I said it looks like a possible hint, nothing definite at all.

I figured you were inferring the friendship; I just was unsure what inspired you to make the connection.

I take Slughorn's remark, "I really don't know where you get these brain waves, my boy...unless--"...."--it's just your mother's genes coming out in you!" to show that Slughorn still sets much (perhaps too much) store by blood. Also, I infer from this comment that he showed Lily a great deal of favoritism, even if she was a "dab hand" at Potions. I did not read into the quote that Lily would have used peppermint, merely that she would have exercised creativity as Harry appeared to do.

I could see favoritism such as this causing tension (as it occasionally does with Hermione and Ron and Draco). I also don't see why it is unlikely that both Lily and Severus could be gifted in Potions.

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wynnleaf - May 24, 2006 8:59 am (#264 of 273)
Edited May 24, 2006 10:00 am

Oh I didn't mean unlikely that they'd both be gifted at potions. Only that two very creative people, who appeared to strike out in unorthodox directions, wouldn't be likely to be similar in their work. So if Slughorn saw Harry's work and thought it seemed like Lily's, when in fact it was Snape's, then that might be evidence that they had worked together.

On the other hand, you could be right in that Slughorn might not have seen any actual similarity in Harry's supposed "style" in potions making and Lily's "style," but simply the similarity of being really good at it.

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Solitaire - May 28, 2006 11:15 am (#265 of 273)
Edited May 28, 2006 12:20 pm

The Dark Arts were dangerous, yes, but for kids at Hogwarts at that time, the sense of danger would have been far removed and hypothetical.

Dumbledore says that there has been precious little for the WW to celebrate for 11 years--following the deaths of James and Lily and the flight of Voldemort. It sounds to me like things were plenty dangerous when James and Lily were first at Hogwarts. We know that Voldemort was already gathering followers and pressuring people to join him. I can't believe that even first years at Hogwarts were unaware of this. It didn't take Harry long to be told that Slytherins were more "connected" to the Dark Arts.

As a Gryffindor, Lily would have quickly been told about this connection, I think. I can see her standing against it and not wanting to lump all Slytherins together. As a Muggle-born, she would certainly not want to exhibit any prejudices, because she would probably have known how it felt to be a victim of prejudice. Still, I think she would have been aware of all of this. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire (edited by me)

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Soul Search - May 28, 2006 6:22 pm (#266 of 273)
Edited May 28, 2006 7:23 pm

Our view of current Slytherins might be a bit jaundiced from seeing mostly through Harry's eyes and mostly viewing Draco, as a role model. My thoughts are that a Slytherin may not have always carried the prejudiced view we have. Also, a Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw may not be as critical as a Gryffindor.

Not only do we see all Slytherins through Harry's eyes, but I also see that Draco has had a dramatic effect on Slytherin House while he was there. Draco has pushed, at least some, Slytherins to anti-Harry and anti-Gryffindor. Draco has also pushed the "pureblood" cause.

Slughorn may be more typical of a Slytherin, rather than Snape, Draco, or Voldemort.

We show a prejudice when jumping to the conclusion that a Gryffindor, say Lily, would not ever associate with a Slytherin, say Snape.

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Solitaire - May 28, 2006 9:18 pm (#267 of 273)

My thoughts are that a Slytherin may not have always carried the prejudiced view we have.

But Soul Search ... Salazar Slytherin was the founder who believed magical learning should be kept strictly among the purebloods. It seems to me that the Slytherins who departed from that view would be the exceptions rather than the rule.

Solitaire

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wynnleaf - May 29, 2006 6:37 am (#268 of 273)
Edited May 29, 2006 7:37 am

Salazar Slytherin was the founder who believed magical learning should be kept strictly among the purebloods. It seems to me that the Slytherins who departed from that view would be the exceptions rather than the rule.

Yes, but we know that there were, and likely always have been, students in Slytherin who were not pureblood. To a certain degree, most Slytherins have to depart from that view if they're going to accept all of the members of their own house. Now granted, the DE's may not know about Voldemort being Tom Riddle -- a half-blood. But that's mostly because they didn't know the Voldemort was Tom Riddle. As far as we know, others in Slytherin knew that Snape was a half-blood, and it seems likely that others in Tom Riddle's day would have known his status.

In any case, if Snape and Riddle both got into Slytherin, it's most likely that there are other non-purebloods in, too.

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Solitaire - May 29, 2006 9:58 am (#269 of 273)

Maybe the Slytherins do not know about all of their members who are not pure-bloods. Did Snape's peers know about his half-blood heritage at the time he was a student? I wonder ...

Solitaire

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wynnleaf - May 29, 2006 10:09 am (#270 of 273)

Well, his mom's marriage was in the Daily Prophet, so I’m sure pureblood families were well aware that another of their group had married a muggle. Even if Snape never mentioned it himself, I feel fairly confident that if any Blacks or Malfoys ever mentioned Snape at home, they'ed hear right away that he was a half-blood.

The point isn't what anyone knew about Snape in particular. Thing is, if Snape's a half-blood, there were bound to be more. Not everyone would have been able to keep it a state secret.

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Madame Pomfrey - Jun 14, 2006 11:00 am (#271 of 273)
Edited Jun 14, 2006 12:01 pm

I think there there little hints throughout the books that suggest Snape may have had tender feelings for Lily.

1. Eye contact: Except for the times that Harry feels that Snape is trying to read his mind, there are several times in which Harry and Snape make eye contact and Snape is the first to look away.Is he seeing Lily's eyes?

2. Occlumency: After breaking into Harry's mind, Snape is paler and angrier than usual. The things he saw were a great black dragon rearing in front of Harry, Harry's father and mother waving at him out of an enchanted mirror and Cedric Diggory lying on the ground with blank eyes staring at him. Although seeing Cedric could evoke both the paleness and the anger, I think it was seeing Harry's parents that caused the emotions. Paleness at seeing Lily and Anger at seeing James and Lily as a couple happily waving at him. Also, Snape was shaking slightly and very white in the face after the scene where Harry breaks into Snape’s mind.Harry see's Snape’s father yelling at his mother while the boy Snape cowers in a corner, the teenager Snape shooting flies off the ceiling with his wand, and a girl laughing at a scrawney boy trying to mount a bucking broom. Was he shaking and pale because he was reliving a fight between his parents? Perhaps he was shaky and pale because the girl laughing at the boy was Lily and he was afraid Harry would recognize her.

3. Snape’s Worst Memory: Two things happen here that may suggest that Snape and Lily had been friends. Lily's eyes blink after Snape insults her and James uses Levicorpus on Snape. We know from HBP that Snape invented Levicorpus as evidenced by his accusing Harry and his "filthy father" of using his own inventions on him after Harry unsuccessfully tried to use this spell on Snape. Also, Harry is compared to his mother’s ability in potions when it is Snape’s book that Harry's using. Did Snape share this book with Lily? Lily defended Snape up until he called her a mudblood. Because of Lily, James did a countercurse and freed Snape. This is when he said: "I don't need help from filthy little mudbloods like her!" Note: this was said after James used Levicorpus on him. Was Snape mad because Lily shared his invention with James? Lily blinked. To me this action means she can't believe or is shocked that Snape ,a friend, just said this to her. "Fine," she said. "I won't bother in the future.(has she defended him in the past?)

4. Slughorn’s comments: Throughout HBP, since using the Prince's potion book, Harry has been accused of having his mother’s potions skills by Slughorn. He has been compared to Lily in every instance except one-Sluggy's Xmas party. While in front of Snape, Slughorn, besides giving Snape credit for teaching him, called it a natural ability. Why didn't Slughorn mention Lily when he had every other time including right before he pulled Snape in by the elbow to join the conversation? Did Slughorn avoid mentioning Lily on purpose?

5. Pet’s comment: "That awful boy" may refer to Snape and not James. Therefore , Snape was friendly enough with Lily to visit her home.

To end this I'd like to point out that Snape probably hates Harry, not only because he looks like James, but because Lily is dead because of him. He probably also hates Neville for the same reason: because Voldemort could have made him the "chosen one." Had he done so, Lily would be alive. I think that Snape will sacrifice himself for Harry. This will be his redemption. I think he will do this because he has wronged Lily by revealing the prophecy to Voldemort. Harry’s having Lily's eyes might be important because Snape will look at Harry and see Lily before making that sacrifice. I think the scene in PoA where Snape puts himself between Lupin (the werewolf) and the trio is foreshadowing and is what gave Jo goosebumps.

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wynnleaf - Jun 14, 2006 11:42 am (#272 of 273)
Edited Jun 14, 2006 12:43 pm

Madame Pomfrey,

All good points. I'd just add that Snape never ever criticizes or even mentions Lily to Harry, even though he's quick to use anything else connected with Harry as an instrument for criticizing.

Also, the fact that JKR didn't have Slughorn in the room when Harry made his pronouncement of Snape hating both his parents and calling Lily a mudblood at the end of HBP.

Certainly all of those things could be coincidence. Altogether, it looks pretty suspicious, especially in the light of his part in LV's targeting the Potters being Snape's biggest regret.

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Madame Pomfrey - Jun 14, 2006 7:41 pm (#273 of 273)
Edited Jun 14, 2006 8:43 pm

Thanks, Wynnleaf. What you added makes it even more suspicious! I hadn't considered that. I found a couple of other things I thought I'd mention.

In the chapter The Seer Overheard Dumbledore tells Harry: "You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized how Lord Voldemort interpreted the prophecy, Harry.I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned---"

I’m sure Snape knew Voldemort would kill the person the prophecy said could destroy him, he knew someone would die, so, why would James' death (a person he dearly hated) be the greatest regret of Snape’s life? This doesn't make sense to me, but a dead Lily does. I think that Snape tried to warn Lily that night in Godric's Hollow, he turned spy for Dumbledore before Voldemort’s fall.

After questioning Dumbledore about why he trusts Snape, Harry asked "Professor...how can you be sure Snape's on our side?" Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely."

What is Dumbledore keeping from Harry? Maybe something to do with Snape’s feelings for Lily?
I didn't mean to imply DD can't be part of the war. He can, but Harry and LV can't know. And DD can't permanently get rid of LV, but Harry, properly prepared, can.

Who is left to prepare Harry now? Those 5 strikes against 'good guys' sure make it look like a downhill battle for anyone, let alone the 'Chosen One'.

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