Beedle the Bard

Beedle the Bard

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. At that time, this thread was still set in the "New Discussions Threads Not Approved or Placed" folder of the WC forum. Elanor

Puck - Dec 15, 2007 5:40 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Jan 27, 2008 4:47 pm
I have been reading the synopsis of the stories on Amzon, and I was hoping that others who read would like to discuss them. The one about the Warlock's Hairy Heart -quite disturbing, totally fascinating.

freshwater - Dec 15, 2007 8:28 pm (#1 of 128)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
That one was disturbing, Puck....gruesome and violent...not a story for children, was my first thought. Although I do recall that many fairytales are just about as grim (no pun intended ) and I loved fairytales as a child. If you're going to write a tale of warning, you might as well make it memorable.

I particularly liked The Wizard and the Hopping Pot....good old morality tale told in an engaging way. But my favorite --so far-- is The Fountain of Fair Fortune. Although I anticipated the extent to which the 4 main characters would assist each other, I didn't foresee the manner in which they healed/served each other's needs by the end. That one definately bears re-reading and discussion.

Great idea for a thread, Puck! I hope others will join in soon.

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Finn BV - Dec 15, 2007 10:03 pm (#2 of 128)
Me kayaking, Niagara River, August 2006. I have been likened to Reepicheep in this photo.
I definitely agree that "The Fountain of Fair Fortune" is the best one so far. Great story, great moral.

Did "The Warlock's Hairy Heart" remind anybody else, a bit, of the Pirates-of-the-Caribbean incarnation of Davey Jones? He was the first thing I thought of when I read about cutting out one's heart and the young maiden… Anyway, wow, Amazon.com is uber cool and the person who's writing these reviews must be in heaven. I am liking the reviews, too, they're not a word-for-word recount without being too skimpy on the details either, and this person clearly likes Rowling. What a cool job!

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geauxtigers - Dec 15, 2007 11:27 pm (#3 of 128)
Yum!
I read them too. I liked the Foutain of the Fair Fortune too. It's my favorite as well.

The Hairy heart was a bit creepy, but it does get the message across! Actually, my first thought was of Romeo and Juliet when I got to the part about him ripping his heart out. For some reason it just made me think of the end of that play (Juliet 'dead' and then him killing himself, I dunno, I can't explain it really!) even though it's not even close to the fairy tale. LOL But then I thought of Davey Jones as well. Creepy story. Sounds like Voldemort a bit. Trying to evade love. Except Voldy didn't really run from it, he didn't understand it, so it was never an issue. He ran from death, the warlock ran from Love. When will these villans learn that everything usually comes back to bite them in the butt? Alas, it makes for some entertaining stories though, so.

I can't wait to hear the rest of the tales!

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Dec 16, 2007 12:13 am (#4 of 128)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
"I have been reading the synopsis of the stories on Amzon," Hemhem, would someone please provide a link for those of us who are too tired/lazy to look it up?

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shepherdess - Dec 16, 2007 12:17 am (#5 of 128)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
Just go to Amazon.com and it's right near the top of the page.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Dec 16, 2007 1:22 am (#6 of 128)
"Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking"
Thank you Shepherdess, it's now 2:22 am, and instead of going to bed like I said I was doing exactly an hour ago, I'm off reading...

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Puck - Dec 16, 2007 7:30 am (#7 of 128)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
TBE, I read on the chat that you going to bed at 1:11am. Hope you got some sleep!

The heart made me think of Volde -storing part of yourself in a container to avoid something you think "unpleasant", but ending up with a fate much worse. Apparently young Tom never read these tales -he would consider them beneath him. I think he would have liked this one. Although, instead of learning not to play with dark arts, he would go ahead and encase his heart, but then never take it out. (Hmmm, he couldn't love, so perhaps his heart is in a case somewhere....)

The story of the Fountain was clearly the readers favorite, as well. I think that helps us appreciate it more, as it's re told with such obvious enjoyment. I must have been in a dark mood, however, because the Hairy Heart was the one I most liked. This might change, however, if I ever get to read it in Jo's own words.

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Madam Pince - Dec 16, 2007 7:41 am (#8 of 128)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Amazon suggests putting this link into your favorites if you want to have permanent access: amazon.com forward-slash beedlebard (with all the www's and stuff...)

I'm printing out the summaries right now, because they are so detailed that after all the recent lexicon lawsuit nonsense, I would not be surprised if the summaries get yanked off the site because they're "violating" some copyright or something.

The book itself is absolutely beautiful, in my opinion. It looks just like a wizarding book ought to look! The silver designs and the moonstones are lovely.

Two questions about the book itself -- on the cover, what is the design in the upper left-hand corner, on the silver mountings? The other three corners are clearly a foot, a heart, and a fountain, but I can't quite decipher the upper left one. It maybe looks a bit like a leaf? Or possibly a feather? The clearest picture of it is the last image when you click "3" under "Images", although there's also a fairly clear one under "2" as well. There's one glimpse of the inside-page illustration for "The Cackling Stump" that rather looks like there's a leaf floating down from around the stump -- could it be that leaf? Clearly the foot is from "Hopping Pot" and the heart is from "Hairy Heart" and the fountain is "Fountain of Fair Fortune" so it seems like we're missing something from "The Cackling Stump" -- I'm thinking it must be a leaf. (So that means the central skull must be "Tale of The Three Brothers" I suppose...) Any ideas?

The other question: It says "Translated from the original ____ by J.K. Rowling" -- what is that missing word? Is it "runes"? I can't quite read her handwriting.

I thought it was interesting that the reviewer also apparently had some problems with reading her handwriting, too. Neat how they described how the handwriting changed as the stories progressed.

Edit: Oooooo, TBE is encountering the "mysterious numbers thingy" that Maria and I do -- she was originally going to go to bed at 1:11, then she notes that it's 2:22 and she's still not in bed... Ooooooo.... *insert creepy music here*

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Orion - Dec 16, 2007 10:08 am (#9 of 128)
If the foot is for the hopping pot, and the heart for the hairy heart, and the fountain for the fountain, the missing design must be for the cackling stump, but it doesn't look like a stump at all. It looks like a leaf to me, but it's blurred. The missing word looks like "runes" to me. I've had a Scottish penfriend for thirty years, they write like that.

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Puck - Dec 16, 2007 10:42 am (#10 of 128)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
The skullis from the Three Brothers, because I saw one of the pictures that had 3 skulls, and you could see the title of the Three Brothers just underneath.

I agree, the word is "runes". Will look again at the pictures. Good idea to print it out, Madame Pince!

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Puck - Dec 16, 2007 12:24 pm (#11 of 128)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
Toolate to edit. I just looked, and the last picture of them replacing the book in the protective pouch, you get a clear view of that corner of the book. It is definately a leaf.

Babbity Rabbity reminded me a bit of "The Emperors New Clothes" at the beginning.

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Chemyst - Dec 16, 2007 1:26 pm (#12 of 128)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
That was most definitely "Translated from the original runes ...
I didn't have any problem reading that word because a year before DH came out, I'd written this fan fiction in which the story (a poem rather than a fairy tale) was also translated from runes (by Hermione.) I think I need a good agent now!

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Verity Weasley - Dec 16, 2007 2:42 pm (#13 of 128)
I thought it said 'translated from the original runic' which I interpreted to mean something written in runes.

I agree that the Fountain of Fair Fortune sounds like a great fairy story, but I can't help liking Babbitty Rabbitty - if only for the great title. I remember reading on JKR's website that when she came up with the title for Deathly Hallows she didn't have a story in mind so she then faced the task of trying to write a story to fit that impossible title. It sounds like she managed it fairly well!

Three cheers for Amazon!!!

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journeymom - Dec 16, 2007 5:09 pm (#14 of 128)
Wait, wait! I can't find it! It was there at the top, now it's gone. Is this just my link to Amazon, or is gone??

If someone has it book marked, could they share, please?

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Choices - Dec 16, 2007 5:35 pm (#15 of 128)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Journeymom, go to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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journeymom - Dec 16, 2007 9:37 pm (#16 of 128)
Thanks, Choices.

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Chemyst - Dec 18, 2007 7:26 am (#17 of 128)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I thought it said 'translated from the original runic' which I interpreted to mean something written in runes. ~ Verity Weasley

You had me second-guessing myself. So I looked up 'runic' and it is listed only as an adjective, except for a video game by that name. Adjectives generally need nouns to modify. (It does sound a little like the word "rubric" which can be either noun or adjective.) When I compare the "es" in the word Tales with the "es" at the ending of runes and see the way the "s" squiggle folds back under instead of opening out like a "c", I'm convinced it is "runes." I am also convinced that I just spent entirely too much time defending a trivial detail.

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Orion - Dec 18, 2007 7:56 am (#18 of 128)
That's the point of this forum...

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Anna L. Black - Dec 18, 2007 12:43 pm (#19 of 128)
Wow, I really want to read that book now. And I'm glad that it was Amazon who bought it, because otherwise we probably wouldn't know at all what it is about.

Even without reading the full transcript of the stories, it's obvious that Rowling did what she's so good at - taken something we all know and love (fairy-tales with common messages), and adopted it to fit her own world. I just love that And I want the book

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Verity Weasley - Dec 18, 2007 8:09 pm (#20 of 128)
Chemyst, I have to agree. After having another closer look at the photos posted by Amazon I have to concur that it does indeed say runes.

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Puck - Dec 19, 2007 7:06 am (#21 of 128)
Mommy, Queen of Everything
In the Pottercast JKR said she was orginally going to write more stories, but kept it down to 5 when she decided to hand write the book. Wonder if we'll ever see the others?

Of course, I'd be thrilled for a copy of this one.

Anyone notice that the women in these stories are always fairly sensible characters with intergiryt, and all the "foolish" and "greedy" characters are male?

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Anna L. Black - Dec 19, 2007 12:09 pm (#22 of 128)
Well, isn't it so in real life? Just kidding

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PeskyPixie - Dec 19, 2007 3:17 pm (#23 of 128)
Well, she gives us ladies the enchanting Miss Bella, so that about evens things out.

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shepherdess - Dec 19, 2007 4:28 pm (#24 of 128)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
And then there's Umbridge.

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Potteraholic - Dec 19, 2007 5:10 pm (#25 of 128)
"Plenty of courage, I see. Not a bad mind either. There's talent - and a nice thirst to prove yourself ..." (PS/SS)

Rita Skeeter's no picnic either.

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shepherdess - Dec 19, 2007 7:20 pm (#26 of 128)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
Maybe all the "foolish" and "greedy" females were going to be in the 25 stories she didn't write.

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Mediwitch - Dec 25, 2007 7:10 pm (#27 of 128)
"We could have all been killed-- or worse, expelled!"
I actually liked Babbitty Rabbitty, too, partly because of the name! The Hairy Heart was creepy...it made me think of Voldemort and also of the original Grimm Brothers kind of fairy tales.

I'm so pleased we got a chance to glimpse these stories. I wish they would be published like Quidditch Through the Ages and Fantastic Beasts (for a charity)!

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zelmia - Jan 1, 2008 2:48 am (#28 of 128)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I actually have mixed feelings about Amazon having bought this last book. While I'm happy that the charity will receive such an enormous contribution - and I'm certainly happy that Amazon has kindly put the synopses of the Tales on their web site for us - part of me feels like it's almost a complete contradiction of what JKR intended by hand writing the work (and including a special message to whomever purchased that particular copy).

Having said that, it's certainly a beatifully bound work. I love all the little details of the silver corners, etc. I really liked the Fountain story for some reason. And the Hairy Heart was sheer Gothic horror - I liked it too.

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Mare - Jan 4, 2008 5:05 am (#29 of 128)
But I think I read somewhere that amazon is going to sent it on tour to schools and libraries to be displayed and shared with other people.

Normally I would agree with you Zelmia, but reading the amazon page it seems to me that the people handling the book know and like Jo's world as much as we do. They are sharing as much as they can and I'm grateful for that. allthough I'm sure it was a very smart move by amazon to buy the book, the fact that they are (apparently) going to send it to places where other people can enjoy it too and thus give every-one a bit of ownership of the book seems to me something that Jo would like very much.

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shepherdess - Jan 4, 2008 12:01 pm (#30 of 128)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
I'd like to know just how much they're going to let people enjoy it. Are they actually going to let people hold the book in their own hands and actually read it? Or are they just going to have it in some kind of display case where you can admire but not touch or read?

The first option would make it worth paying to see, but surely it wouldn't be feasible to allow countless numbers of people the time to individually read the whole book. The second seems more likely to me, and in my opinion, does not make it worth paying to see it.

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Chemyst - Jan 4, 2008 5:29 pm (#31 of 128)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Hmm... My guess would be that they'd show it under bullet-proof Plexiglas for free as an incentive to get people to come to an event, but then charge for peripherals - sell related books and merchandise once you are there.

I can't imagine them letting muggles touch it. I'd think even the archivist would be required to wear gloves.

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valuereflection - Jan 5, 2008 4:09 pm (#32 of 128)
Most libraries don't charge for events. Often schools (not universities) don't charge, either, unless they are fund-raising. But perhaps they would need to charge something for Beedle the Bard, just to be able to afford the extra security measures and personnel that would be necessary to guard a million-dollar book. And they would need extra accomodations for the large crowds of people who would want to come. Perhaps Amazon should consider displaying it at several museums -- museums are already in the business of displaying rare works to the public.

I think it would be cool if someone from Amazon read aloud one of the fairy tales on tour. It would not be a typical small group listening to a story-hour at the library.

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Madam Pince - Jan 6, 2008 5:40 pm (#33 of 128)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
I thought I read that it was going to be shown in a display case.

Like Chemyst, I can't imagine that they would allow the great unwashed masses to handle the book! Even the guys holding it up for bidding at Sotheby's were wearing gloves (according to the pictures on their website...)

I also agree with Chemyst that the display will probably be free of charge, but then they'll sell other merchandise and such at the event.

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tandaradei - Jan 9, 2008 4:16 pm (#34 of 128)
Reference Librarian
Some quick IMHO notes:

"The Warlock's Hairy Heart" reminds me of Hawthorne's "The Birth-Mark"; of which Wikipedia says: ["The Birth-Mark" is a romantic short story written by Nathaniel Hawthorne that examines obsession with human perfection. It was first published in the March, 1843 edition of The Pioneer.] And aren't these poignant stories about obsession? Interestingly, the birth-mark on Aylmer's wife Georgiana (the Hawthorne story) is heart-shaped, which again reminds me of JKR's Beetle story, and about cutting hearts out. In Hawthorne's story, when Aylmer's heart-shaped birth-mark is removed, she -- the beauty of her generation -- dies, and everybody loses everything … ESPECIALLY her husband. So much for this quest for scientific perfection. The idea being that, when certain quests are pursued too obsessively they may, like a bullet, cause loads of peripheral damage ... and bring about great tragedy.

"The Fountain of Fair Fortune” reminds me of an indie movie Bruce Lee wanted to make, but others did because he died; regarding his take on Eastern Philosophy. It was called Circle of Iron (1978). In that movie we learn bunches of "journey is everything" kind of stuff; and when Cord in that movie finally “earns” the prize of all knowledge, he discovers it to be a mere book, which when opened reveals a mirror! Hehe. The real gems of both stories appear from the quests themselves, showing moral growth, maturity and resultant happiness in its participants. xxxxxxxxx As an aside, this is always why I felt JKR made Dumbledore's funeral so beautiful: even while Harry realized the locket had gotten them nowhere in terms of the quest (and Deathly Hallows had yet to be written); nonetheless, the beauty of the environment of the funeral helps us realize, that what Dumbledore & Harry attempted together to achieve mattered more than the result apparently; that they had attempted their quest so truly and bravely; and that in the end, in the beauty in eulogizing Dumbledore in that funeral could be seen from that vantage point (as against the vantage point of ugly baby Voldy’s “funeral” in the King's Cross Chapter / or when he dies so “mundanely” in the final duel).

In both: soul growth.

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Eponine - Jul 31, 2008 5:27 am (#35 of 128)
FYI: Beetle the Bard in time for Christmas

I knew they'd release the book eventually. The Collector's Edition looks very very nice.

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PeskyPixie - Jul 31, 2008 10:35 am (#36 of 128)
Yeah, but it costs $100. I think I'll go for the paperback version and spend the rest of my money on yet more books.

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PeskyPixie - Jul 31, 2008 5:46 pm (#37 of 128)
I've just pre-ordered my copy of Beedle! For someone who pooh-poohed the book when it was rare and exclusive I've certainly come around. Ah, the grapes are much sweeter now.

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Madam Pince - Jul 31, 2008 7:06 pm (#38 of 128)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Orion called it in a post Dec. 2nd 2007 on the "Books for Charity" thread... congrats, Orion!

***teensy cynical part of me is noting how Scholastic and Bloomsbury will still have a money-maker for the Christmas season this year...***

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tandaradei - Jul 31, 2008 7:12 pm (#39 of 128)
Reference Librarian
cool. I've preordered too.

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Verity Weasley - Jul 31, 2008 7:17 pm (#40 of 128)
Oh that Deluxe edition looks just beautiful! I'm not sure I could justify the cost though, particularly when I have to pay for shipping to Australia as well. At least the exchange rate is good, (notice how I'm trying to convince myself!). I wasn't too impressed with the cover of the paperback version, although the price is excellent. It's a shame they couldn't do something in between.

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Quinn Crockett - Jul 31, 2008 8:10 pm (#41 of 128)
"Yes! I'm impugning a continent!"
Maybe just buy the little one just to have the text - which I've no doubt will be open for discussion here - then get the expensive one if you can afford it. That' probably what I'm going to do, anyway.

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PatPat - Jul 31, 2008 8:33 pm (#42 of 128)
Just pre-ordered mine!! ***Secretly agrees with the cynical part of Madam Pince.***

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shepherdess - Jul 31, 2008 11:37 pm (#43 of 128)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
Verity, you might want to take another look at that link; both versions are hardcover.

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Madam Pince - Aug 1, 2008 12:37 pm (#44 of 128)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
For convenience' sake, here is how Amazon.com describes the two upcoming editions of Beedle the Bard:

The Tales of Beedle the Bard, Collector's Edition Offered Exclusively by Amazon (Available in Limited Quantities)

In December 2007, J.K. Rowling unveiled The Tales of Beedle the Bard, a very special book of five fairy tales illustrated by the bard herself, embellished with silver ornaments and mounted moonstones. Amazon was fortunate to come into possession of one of the original copies, and it was our privilege to share images and reviews of this incredible artifact. Now J.K. Rowling is giving millions of Harry Potter fans worldwide cause for celebration with a new edition of The Tales of Beedle the Bard (available December 4, 2008) and Amazon is thrilled to exclusively offer a luxuriously packaged Collector’s Edition designed to evoke the spirit of the handcrafted original.
Tucked in its own case disguised as a wizarding textbook found in the Hogwarts library, the Collector's Edition includes an exclusive reproduction of J.K. Rowling's handwritten introduction, as well as 10 additional illustrations not found in the Standard Edition or the original. Opening the case reveals a velvet bag embroidered with J.K. Rowling’s signature, in which sits the piece de resistance: your very own copy of The Tales of Beedle the Bard, complete with metal skull, corners, and clasp; replica gemstones; and emerald ribbon.

Offering the trademark wit and imagination familiar to Rowling's legions of readers--as well as Aesop's wisdom and the occasional darkness of the Brothers Grimm--each of these five tales reveals a lesson befitting children and parents alike: the strength gained with a trusted friendship, the redemptive power of love, and the true magic that exists in the hearts of all of us. Rowling's new introduction also comments on the personal lessons she has taken from the Tales, noting that the characters in Beedle's collection "take their fates into their own hands, rather than taking a prolonged nap or waiting for someone to return a lost shoe," and "that magic causes as much trouble as it cures."

But the true jewel of this new edition is the enlightening and comprehensive commentary (including extensive footnotes!) by Professor Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore, who brings his unique wizard's-eye perspective to the collection. Discovered "among the many papers which Dumbledore left in his will to the Hogwarts Archives," the venerable wizard's ruminations on the Tales allow today's readers to place them in the context of 16th century Muggle society, even allowing that "Beedle was somewhat out of step with his times in preaching a message of brotherly love for Muggles" during the era of witch hunts that would eventually drive the wizarding community into self-imposed exile. In fact, versions of the same stories told in wizarding households would shock many for their uncharitable treatment of their Muggle characters.

Professor Dumbledore also includes fascinating historical backstory, including tidbits such as the history and pursuit of magic wands, a brief comment on the Dark Arts and its practitioners, and the struggles with censorship that eventually led "a certain Beatrix Bloxam" to cleanse the Tales of "much of the darker themes that she found distasteful," forever altering the meaning of the stories for their Muggle audience. Dumbledore also allows us a glimpse of his personal relationship to the Tales, remarking that it was through "Babbity Rabbity and Her Cackling Stump" that "many of us [wizards] first discovered that magic could not bring back the dead."

Both a wise and delightful addition to the Harry Potter canon, this new translation of The Tales of Beedle the Bard is all that fans could hope for and more--and an essential volume for the libraries of Muggles, wizards, and witches, both young and old.

Net proceeds from this Collector's Edition and the Standard Edition support of the Children's High Level Group, a charity co-founded in 2005 by J K Rowling and Emma Nicholson MEP to make life better for vulnerable children. (The Children's High Level Group is a charity registered in England and Wales under registered charity number 1112575.)

Also Available: the Standard Edition The Tales of Beedle the Bard, Standard Edition contains the five fairy tales, a new introduction by J.K. Rowling, illustrations reproduced from the original handcrafted book, and commentary on each of the tales from Professor Albus Dumbledore.

Collector's Edition Product Features: • All five fairy tales from the original The Tales of Beedle the Bard • Outer case disguised as a wizarding textbook from the Hogwarts library • Exclusive reproduction of J.K. Rowling's handwritten introduction • 10 new illustrations by J.K. Rowling not included in the Standard Edition or the original handcrafted edition • Velvet bag embroidered with J.K. Rowling's signature • Metal skull, corners, and clasp • Replica gemstones • Emerald ribbon

Stay tuned for updated images and details about The Tales of Beedle the Bard, Collector's Edition. (Text courtesy Amazon.com)

I shouldn't have read this. Now it's quite tempting.

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Solitaire - Aug 1, 2008 1:41 pm (#45 of 128)
The expensive one has a few "extras" that are not in the other one ... as well as looking more like the original one, I think. I can't even pass it off as being for a spouse or kid (I don't have either). If I buy it, it's for me.

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Verity Weasley - Aug 1, 2008 9:14 pm (#46 of 128)
Edited Aug 1, 2008 9:51 pm
Thanks Shepherdess, yes, I see both versions are hardcover. I much prefer the UK cover for the standard edition though. I'm quite surprised at how reasonable the pricing is for the standard version, considering it is a hardcover book, albeit a thin one. They could have charged twice that at least and people would still flock to buy it.

Solitaire, the good thing about the release date is that you can pass it off as a Christmas present to yourself, then it doesn't seem quite so indulgent. That's the line of thinking I'm taking. I have both a spouse and children, but they're not getting it!!

Edited to add: I've done it! I just ordered the Collector's Edition, along with 'Harry, a History' - the book by Melissa Annelli. I just hope they get here in time for Christmas!

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Anna L. Black - Aug 2, 2008 3:43 am (#47 of 128)
Verity, how much do they charge for shipping? I'm wondering whether to pre order it now, or wait until it arrives in bookstores here (which I'm not sure is going to happen, actually ).

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Solitaire - Aug 2, 2008 1:14 pm (#48 of 128)
Maybe it is a "free shipping" item. I've ordered lots of things from Amazon that have free shipping. If it is, it will say so on the main info page for the item.

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Verity Weasley - Aug 2, 2008 3:58 pm (#49 of 128)
Unfortunately Soli, none of those 'free shipping' offers apply if it's an international order. Anna, the shipping to Australia is $10 for one book, then $5 for each additional book. The Collector's Edition is only available from Amazon, but the standard edition will be available in shops.

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freshwater - Aug 2, 2008 5:12 pm (#50 of 128)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
I don't know, Verity. I pre-ordered the deluxe edition(for me) and regular edition (for my classroom) and got free shipping. I'm in the U.S.....so maybe it is different for Australia as you are a bit further away. Still....I think if you order a special edition for $100 you ought to get free shipping!

EDIT...just realized I ordered from Amazon.com, NOT amazon.com.uk !

PeskyPixie - Aug 3, 2008 2:19 pm (#51 of 128)
I ordered two copies of the standard edition from the Canadian branch (?) of Amazon and to make my order qualify for free shipping I added two more books I really want to my order.

I thought that Dumbledore's comments would only be available in the Collector's edition and was a bit sad about that, but now that I know that they'll be in the Standard edition as well, I'm not tempted by the more expensive version anymore.

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Mare - Aug 6, 2008 12:43 pm (#52 of 128)
I'm sure they will have some in shops over here, they had the English version of the comic relief books too. But I actually like the cover of the american version better, so maybe I have to order anyhow.

But Freshwater, if you have both versions with you at some point, I'm sure you could make a nice comparison to see if there is any extra information in the deluxe edition!

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geauxtigers - Dec 4, 2008 9:36 pm (#53 of 128)
Yum!
I'm shocked that no one has posted anything about Beedle yet! Or is there another thread? **wanders off to find thread** If not I'll be back!

Okay I can't find another thread! How did everyone like Beedle? I loved it! I thought it was really good and loved all the commentary and how it was set up in general. And uhh, how about the Horklumps line? Branched out hasn't she! I laughed so hard! I really don't have time to dig deep, but I couldn't resist! So I will be back once I get through exams next week!

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freshwater - Dec 4, 2008 9:58 pm (#54 of 128)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
I ordered the special edition from amazon...but it will not be shipped until the 8th! I thought they would ship so it would arrive on the 4th.....hhmmmph!

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Dryleaves - Dec 5, 2008 1:10 am (#55 of 128)
I have read it too. I did it with a very uncritical eye, though, so I don't have any discussion topics to bring up. I really enjoyed it. Early Christmas present for myself...

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tandaradei - Dec 5, 2008 8:36 am (#56 of 128)
Reference Librarian
I've read it also, but also uncritically.

I was thrilled to learn more about Nearly Headless Nick; and also that the term warlock was meant to generally indicate an accomplished dueling wizard; and I appreciated all Dumbledore's comments on the stories, which I had not read before.

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Solitaire - Dec 5, 2008 8:43 am (#57 of 128)
I'm hoping to get it for Christmas.

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legolas returns - Dec 5, 2008 11:13 am (#58 of 128)
I loved the Beedle the Bard stories. The stories are all very good/thought provoking etc but I found Dumbledores commentary very interesting.

I agree with whoever asked why you would wait for Christmas to read the book. Are you crazy (in the nicest of possible ways)?

I was amused by Dumbledore's anecdote relating to the Fountain of Fair Fortune. It made me laugh and made me think of a present member of the teaching staff.

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Steve Newton - Dec 5, 2008 2:26 pm (#59 of 128)
Librarian
I just ordered a copy at my library.

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mona amon - Dec 5, 2008 7:57 pm (#60 of 128)
Loved it!

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Elanor - Dec 6, 2008 6:42 am (#61 of 128)
Loved it! Especially Dumbledore's comments and the little details we learn in them. I was really amazed by the alchemical drawing of the fountain too (I'll post about it on the alchemy thread), just kept looking at it saying "wow!"

BTW, don't you think it's sort of cruel of her to tempt us with "Grumble the Grubby Goat"? I want to read "Grumble the Grubby Goat" now!!!! Don't you?

Edit: I giggled at "Bertrand de Pensées-Profondes" too. "pensées profondes" means "profound/deep thoughts" and I'd bet she had one pompous philosopher whose name starts with a "B" on her mind when she invented Bertrand. As for "Lisette de Lapin", lapin is rabbit in French.

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freshwater - Dec 6, 2008 7:02 am (#62 of 128)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
BTW, don't you think it's sort of cruel of her to tempt us with "Grumble the Grubby Goat"? I want to read "Grumble the Grubby Goat" now!!!! Don't you?--Elanor

I'll bet it's part of an evil plot to set us up to buy the next book for charity.....The Tales of Betty the Bardette, or some such thing. And, naturally....I will.

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legolas returns - Dec 6, 2008 7:03 am (#63 of 128)
Watch out we might get Toadstool Tales instead!

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rcs - Dec 6, 2008 7:15 am (#64 of 128)
I noticed something interesting in the artwork for "The Fountain of Fair Fortune": On the very last page of the story, when you see the picture of the Fountain itself, there are a bunch of symbols inscribed on it. Mostly just astrological symbols and stuff, but one of them (the largest one, right at the base of the fountain) is the Deathly Hallows sign.

Did anybody else notice this? I wonder what JKR (or Mary GrandPre? Who did all those little illustrations in TBB anyway?) could have meant by that.

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freshwater - Dec 6, 2008 8:56 am (#65 of 128)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
See Elanor's post #61....she mentions alchemical drawings on the Fountain illustration, and said she'd post something on the alchemy thread. It's not one I frequent, but now I must go check it out. See you there, rcs?

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rcs - Dec 6, 2008 11:17 am (#66 of 128)
I wasn't really commenting on the alchemical symbols; I was just wondering if anybody else noticed that one of them was the Deathly Hallows sign.

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Quinn Crockett - Dec 6, 2008 11:27 am (#67 of 128)
"Yes! I'm impugning a continent!"
Elanor, could she have taken the name from Betrand Russell instead of a prof she once had?

I don't have the book - yet. Hopefully some kind soul will give to me as a gift for christmas.

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Pigwidgeon - Dec 6, 2008 2:43 pm (#68 of 128)
NE Ohio
I got mine on Thursday, but my week was so crazy I only got a chance to read it now (and I should have been working on other things, but come on! It's HARRY POTTER!)

LOVED it! I had a grin on my face the entire time. I felt like I was getting back into the magic again. I didn't read it too critically (brain's still too fried after this week for that LOL). This was a fun book. I thought the stories were great, but I loved the side notes by Dumbledore even more, which served as a history/commentary about the story and the wizarding world. I think my favorite comic moment was the snippet from the Toadstool books, and Dumbledore's commentary on them. That was great!

Wonderfull "Merry Christmas to Me" gift

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freshwater - Dec 6, 2008 3:33 pm (#69 of 128)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
I must admit that --because I ordered the deluxe edition from Amazon, and they are not shipping it until Monday **imagine my scowling face**-- I slipped into my local bookstore this afternoon, grabbed a copy of the Bard, settled into a chair by the fire and browsed through DD's commentaries. (I read the summaries of the tales on Amazon last year when they first bought one of the original copies at auction)

I felt like I was getting back into the magic again.--Pigwidgeon

I felt the same way, Pigwidgeon....Jo's particular flavor of humor, felt like slipping back into a comfortable pair of slippers.

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Anna L. Black - Dec 7, 2008 12:01 am (#70 of 128)
Shhh, freshwater, don't give me ideas A coupleof months ago, I sent a question to the local bookstore-chain, and wondered whether they'll have Beedle on sale, and how much it will cost. They never answered, so I went and ordered it from Amazon, instead, and yesterday my mum saw it in the shopping mall... And I'm only getting it around the 12th. And since that's close to the weekend, I'll probably get it even later. Anyway, I hope that I'll be able to resist, and not do what I did with DH (I went and bought a copy on the release day, when I was supposed to get it by delivery the next day. Then, the delivery was delayed by a day, so it's actually lucky that I did that!).

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Mrs. Sirius - Dec 7, 2008 12:14 am (#71 of 128)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
I am being cheap, so I told my husband to have the kids give it to me as my Christmas give. My husband who never met a book he could put off buying, bought it first day. He showed it to me today but wouldn't let me read I, so I will have to get it from him some how, no way I can wait until Christmas.

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freshwater - Dec 7, 2008 7:58 am (#72 of 128)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
He showed it to me today but wouldn't let me read I, so I will have to get it from him some how, no way I can wait until Christmas.--Mrs. Sirius

As the "mom of 4", I'm sure you have many means of getting what you want from your husband! Good luck, Mrs. S!

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Elanor - Dec 7, 2008 9:55 am (#73 of 128)
It could also be that Quinn! Or even maybe a bit of both!

I have posted about the fountain drawing on the alchemy thread btw.

Mrs Sirius, if your husband needs a bit more persuasion, there is still Kreacher's way of "persuading" people. Maybe something to remind him of...

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Mare - Dec 7, 2008 5:09 pm (#74 of 128)
Did any-one notice Hector Dagworth-Granger? Might that have been the "witch or wizard somewhere on the family tree" for Hermione?
So what do we think of the fact that apparantly you can't be 100% muggleborn after all, is it simply a way to not have to explain how muggleborn children can be magical?

Also: much love for the introduction and the fact that she so actively points out that her heroines prefer to be in charge of their own lives. I disagree about the maiden though. The warlocks high standing and fortune aren't enough, she still tries to get him to show that he has feelings. There are more than enough women today who wouldn't even bother with that if the first two qualifications are present... too bad she gets to die for her troubles.

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rcs - Dec 7, 2008 7:23 pm (#75 of 128)
Wasn't Hector Dagworth-Granger mentioned before? I think it was by Slughorn in HBP.

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Choices - Dec 8, 2008 8:35 am (#76 of 128)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I don't remember that, but then my memory isn't perfect. I think if Slughorn had mentioned Dagworth-Granger, we all would have jumped on it.

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mona amon - Dec 8, 2008 8:47 am (#77 of 128)
Slughorn does mention Dagworth-Granger, but we didn't jump because he specifically asks Hermione whether she's related to him, and she says "No, I'm muggle-born".

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Choices - Dec 8, 2008 8:50 am (#78 of 128)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Thanks Mona. Otherwise we would have been all over that. Hermione says she is not related to him....end of discussion. :-)

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Mare - Dec 8, 2008 10:28 am (#79 of 128)
I'll take the bait Do we assume Hermione has her entire familytree memorised?

When did Dagworth-Granger lived? Is it possible that he is an ancestor of Hermione without her knowing it? Maybe some-one in the family had Black/Dursley like qualities and decided to "blast" every wizard of the family tree to keep it "all muggle, all the time."
If you assume that you allready know that you are 100% muggleborn, you don't exactly have a reason to go looking for a wizard ancestor, even though you may have one.

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Orion - Dec 8, 2008 10:42 am (#80 of 128)
Most people only know something about their immediate ancestors including the grandparents and the great-grandparents, but not much more. As Hermione's parents are both dentists, they have an all-muggle family and extended family meeting for the big family events. If a wizard relative had turned up at a wedding or a funeral, surely Hermione would have noticed, so IMO Hermione doesn't know about the wizard genes. Maybe she just thinks that being muggle born means she's a rare genetical mutation.

It's surprising that she doesn't know such important things which aren't only common knowledge among wizard but which are also related to herself and her own personal history. A wizard in her family who could tell her important things about herself and her ancestry would be priceless for her. There is no subject resembling biology on the Hogwarts curriculum, BTW.

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legolas returns - Dec 8, 2008 11:19 am (#81 of 128)
Herbology is the closest you get to Biology or Botany.

She could well have had a distant magical relative but they could just have been seen as a little eccentric by the rest of the family. Only Hermione/Hermione's parents would really be able that they were magical.

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Mrs. Sirius - Dec 9, 2008 10:01 pm (#82 of 128)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Edited Dec 10, 2008 6:26 am
When did Hector Dagworth-Granger live? Anything further than 3 generation and there is a good chance Hermione or even her parents aren't area of them or their "nature". Look at all the genealogy discoveries that are being made currently, the current US vice president is related 6-7 generations back to the president to be. My husband discovered he is related to Joseph Smith the founder of the Morman Church 8 generations back. According to my mother we are related to dubious political factions in the country we come from, only 3-4 generations back.

I have never even made more than a cursory search into that.

Edited for privacy and modesty :-)

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Verity Weasley - Dec 10, 2008 1:32 am (#83 of 128)
Hector Dagworth-Granger was the founder of the Most Extraordinary Society of Potioneers, so it sounds as though he has been around for a while. Then again, Slughorn mentioned him so he might only be a generation or so back.

Anyway, back to Beedle, I ordered the Collector's Edition from Amazon but it will take ages to get to Australia, so today I weakened and bought a copy of the normal one at a bookshop. I haven't read it all yet, but I did read the stories themselves on the Amazon website when they bought the final copy, so I'm looking forward to reading all the comments. I ordered my copy back in August when the Aussie dollar was a lot stronger. It has since taken a real dive so it has ended up costing a lot more than I was expecting. Oh well, happy Christmas to me!

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Solitaire - Dec 10, 2008 8:04 am (#84 of 128)
Then again, Slughorn mentioned him so he might only be a generation or so back.

Since Sluggy is a Potions Master, he would probably know about Dagworth-Granger and maybe even talk about him, even if he lived a couple of centuries ago ... whether he knew him or not. I chased around some links to him, but I couldn't find a date for the Society of Potioneers. Snape probably would have known!

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freshwater - Dec 10, 2008 7:13 pm (#85 of 128)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
My collector's edition of The Tales of Beedle the Bard arrived today! **happy dance** The book itself is about 4 x 6 inches(maybe a bit bigger) and rather heavy, due to the "silver" emblems on the cover. The outer book in which it fits, it huge! It's at least 12 inches tall and 8-9 inches wide, and 2 1/2 to 3 inches deep! How am I going to fit that on a bookshelf? On the other hand....it reminds me a bit of a book Hermione might have taken out of the Hogwart's Library for a bit of light reading. **off to read the tales and the commentary**

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Solitaire - Dec 10, 2008 9:49 pm (#86 of 128)
I'm jealous, freshwater. I can't afford the fancy version this year ... only the $8 one.

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Quinn Crockett - Dec 22, 2008 1:05 pm (#87 of 128)
"Yes! I'm impugning a continent!"
I think what I like best about this is all the little details we learn about the characters we already know. That McGonagall became Head of Hogwarts and her animagus abilities, for instance. Or the tidbits about how wands work.

I also think that we learn about a culture through its stories. Though Wizard culture is obviously fictional, it makes it that much more real to be able to read these "stories" from there, and to better understand it.

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journeymom - Dec 28, 2008 12:20 pm (#88 of 128)
My dear daughter gave me Beedle for Christmas, and I finished reading it last night. Oooh, what fun! I liked it more than I expected to, and Dumbledore's comments really added a lot. Someone several posts back mentioned how easy it was to slip into JKR's writing again, like comfortable slippers. It was lovely to read new material by Jo.

I think she did a great job of writing in a 'olde fashioned' fairytale style. I could have done without the guy licking the heart.

I think the tale of the three brothers is my favorite, since it ties into Harry's story so much. And I think you can roughly parallel the three brothers with Voldemort, Snape and Harry, and since Harry even called them brothers at the end of DH, I think it's on purpose. Though now I'm thinking about it, Dumbledore's behavior more directly parallel's the second brother's behavior than Snape's does. Dumbledore actually tried use the stone, while Snape had to make do with looking into Harry's eyes to see Lily one last time.

Oh, and someone here 'called it' way back at the beginning, comparing the Hairy Heart to Voldemort's horcruxes.

I noticed all those alchemical symbols on the fountain, and will have to go read what Audrey wrote in a bit. After I've done something useful around the house...

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freshwater - Dec 28, 2008 1:38 pm (#89 of 128)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
Back up in the section "The World and the Harry Potter Phenomenon" you'll find the HP Trivia quiz thread. The current quiz is about The Tales of Beedle the Bard....give it a try. **off for one more re-read before I try it...**

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Solitaire - Dec 28, 2008 3:28 pm (#90 of 128)
I guess I need to either head to B&N or fire off an order to Amazon, since I did not get a copy for Christmas.

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journeymom - Dec 28, 2008 3:50 pm (#91 of 128)
Most definitely, Solitaire, get yourself a copy post haste!

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Mrs. Sirius - Dec 28, 2008 5:34 pm (#92 of 128)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Isn't it just like JKR though, to play with our temptations? She can't write something and leave well enough alone.

Dumbledore says his favorite story was "The Tale of the Three Brothers" but his brother's was "Grumble the Grubby Goat". Well, why was he goat tale so fascinating that it was Alberforth's favorite? and what about Grumble and those flies? Also tell us more about Egbert!

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Mrs Brisbee - Dec 28, 2008 8:31 pm (#93 of 128)
I too got Beedle the Bard for Christmas, and found it very enjoyable. Dumbledore's commentaries and the footnotes were very interesting.

I was glad to see that McGonagall finally got to be Headmistress.

One of JKR's footnotes seems to confirm my opinion about the leadership abilities of Dumbledore's portrait. She tells us that as facsimiles of wizards and witches, photos can move like the people they copy; portraits can move and talk; and ghosts can move, talk, and think. So, it seems a portrait wouldn't make a great leader, as it shouldn't be able to think up new plans, just spout the old ones.

The note about residual magic in wands might explain that baffling moment in DH, where Harry grabs three wands and does a triple-strength spell. If a wand is a focus, three wands should make the power more diffuse, not stronger. And if it did make spells stronger, why wouldn't wizards go around all the time with three wands strapped together? But if it was a case of residual magic than it was a rare fluke and that explains that.

I'm still trying to figure out what all the wandlore stuff means to the series at large.

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Holly T. - Dec 28, 2008 8:35 pm (#94 of 128)
Soli (and anyone else who didn't get a copy of Beedle)--I have two extra copies--one was a gift to us and one I had bought someone for a gift, only to have the intended giftee mention the day before I was planning to give it to her that her dh had bought it for her. So--e-mail me and I will be happy to put them in the mail.

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Orion - Dec 29, 2008 4:20 am (#95 of 128)
Soli, what's the problem in getting a Beedle? The shops are full of them and it's number one in the book sale charts. Did anybody else have an adolescent giggling fit about the Horklumps?

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Solitaire - Jan 13, 2009 7:56 am (#96 of 128)
Orion, mine has finally arrived by mail! I didn't order one initially, because it was on my Christmas list to my entire family, who all know that anything Harry Potter is perfect for me. (I told them where they could buy it, too.) Then, after Christmas, I was in no shape to go shopping. I could hardly hobble around the house, and I had a bad cold. I'm better now. Actually, I ordered Beedle from Amazon, together with the two new versions of Persuasion and Northanger Abbey, right after I made the post above. It finally arrived on the weekend!

Now I just need to have my DVD player fixed, so that I can watch all of the HP and new Jane Austen movies!

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PeskyPixie - Jan 22, 2009 12:08 pm (#97 of 128)
Orion, I was a tad shocked by the Horklumps.

Ah, Abe, his fascination with goats began early on in life.

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 1, 2009 11:43 pm (#98 of 128)
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One of JKR's footnotes seems to confirm my opinion about the leadership abilities of Dumbledore's portrait. She tells us that as facsimiles of wizards and witches, photos can move like the people they copy; portraits can move and talk; and ghosts can move, talk, and think. So, it seems a portrait wouldn't make a great leader, as it shouldn't be able to think up new plans, just spout the old ones. - Mrs Brisbee

I don't feel this way about DD's portrait given the last few paragraphs of The Prince's Tale. How could DD's portrait not think?

Feel free to answer, Mrs Brisbee or others, on this or the Portrait thread. Thoughts?

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Steve Newton - Feb 2, 2009 8:32 am (#99 of 128)
Librarian
In OOTP the picture, can't remember which, goes to the MOM to rescue Arthur. He seems to be pretty quick thinking when he calls for help since there was no portrait nearby.

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Julia H. - Feb 2, 2009 9:51 am (#100 of 128)
Perhaps portraits mirror their originals. They can't think "on their own" but they can think as their originals would. So the portrait of an intelligent person would be more intelligent than the portrait of a stupid person. I think it is probable that a portrait cannot learn new skills and is not capable of significant personal development but it probably retains certain skills and characteristics of the original.

Regarding Dumbledore, we can perhaps say that the portrait may not have needed to make any new plans because all the plans may have already been in the head of the living Dumbledore and the portrait simply remembered. We know portraits can remember. However, the portrait Dumbledore strikes me as a thinking being. Besides, all portraits must be able to process new information, which is another mental activity. How could otherwise the portraits of the old Headmasters learn who the current Headmaster is, to mention just one example?

me and my shadow 813 - Feb 2, 2009 1:53 pm (#101 of 128)
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Yup, my feelings as well to both above posts. Curious JKR would say ghosts can think but Portraits cannot. We don't really see ghosts doing anything spectacular but we do witness some great contributions from the Portraits

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Madam Pince - Feb 2, 2009 8:58 pm (#102 of 128)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
What if there was a portrait of a ghost? I mean, like one of Nearly Headless Nick (from when he was alive) or somebody. Hmmmm.

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Mare - Feb 3, 2009 3:23 am (#103 of 128)
You could have a conversation with yourself!

I never understood either: If you have several portraits, there is only one person that keeps moving between them? So a portrait of you is hanging somewhere, but rarely is there an actual picture, because the inhabitant is somewhere else!

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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 3, 2009 5:02 am (#104 of 128)
Regarding Dumbledore, we can perhaps say that the portrait may not have needed to make any new plans because all the plans may have already been in the head of the living Dumbledore and the portrait simply remembered.-- Julia H.

That's my take on it. The living Dumbledore was highly intelligent, and could plan for many possibilities. Just not every possibility. I think that the portraits just replay the same formulas that they knew in life, but have some capacity to plug new data into the old formulas. They just can't come up with new stuff. They are not real people.

I don't see ghosts as all that extraordinary, either. They are more advanced copies than portraits, as they are imprints of the person's actual soul, but they are not "real" people either in the sense that they can grow and change, because it doesn't seem to be their real soul which is left behind.

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freshwater - Feb 3, 2009 6:57 pm (#105 of 128)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
Interesting discussion about the potential for portraits to come up new ideas vs. passing on ideas/plans of which they were aware before their deaths.....so, I suppose this means that the plan to move Harry from #4 Privet Dr. that DD discussed with Snape in DH was a plan that he'd already come up with prior to his death?

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tandaradei - Feb 3, 2009 7:25 pm (#106 of 128)
Reference Librarian
You know, I think one interesting example of ghosts coming up with new ideas is their sorrow over not being able to experience physical pleasures anymore.

I mean, before they died and as physical beings they could experience physical pleasures; so it wasn't within them to miss such things; but once they'd passed over as ghosts and were no longer capable of physical pleasures, they then learnt some miseries of, erm, non-physicalness....

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 3, 2009 9:12 pm (#107 of 128)
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I agree, tanda but JKR has told us ghosts can think. Unfortunately, she also told us Portraits cannot and that's where I'm stumped. I suppose Julia's thinking that Portraits are as intelligent as their subjects is possible. But it seems like DD was active in his ability to take Phineas's information that H&H were in the Forest of Dean and discuss this *new* information with Severus...

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Hieronymus Graubart - Feb 4, 2009 1:23 am (#108 of 128)
Well, you could program a computer to react to foreseeable new information, for example "If you hear somebody say where Harry is, remind Snape that he has to deliver the sword in this-and-that way". Does this computer think then, when it processes this "new" information? No, all the thinking has already been done by the programer.

I'm not saying that Dumbledore consiously programed his portrait. But he knew before his dead that Harry would need the sword and how it should be delivered and that it could not be delivered unless the person in posession of the sword knew where Harry was. The portrait could probably not react proper to a strange and unexpected situation on which the living Dumbledore had never wasted a thought.

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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 4, 2009 6:30 am (#109 of 128)
I'm not saying that Dumbledore consiously programed his portrait. But he knew before his dead that Harry would need the sword and how it should be delivered and that it could not be delivered unless the person in posession of the sword knew where Harry was. The portrait could probably not react proper to a strange and unexpected situation on which the living Dumbledore had never wasted a thought.-- Hieronymus Graubart

I agree. I do think, though, that Dumbledore did consciously come up with contingency plans. He knew for a full year that he was dying, and didn't want to trust a living soul with his full knowledge, perhaps because he feared that they would deviate from his desired plans.

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Madam Pince - Feb 4, 2009 7:09 am (#110 of 128)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Me and My, I think you've really hit on something interesting here. I'm almost wondering if it's not just another "JKR error." Well, maybe error is too strong a word, but you know what I mean -- the books are chock-full of things that contradict each other or don't really make logical sense. It always seemed to me that they were usually things that she stated early on in the books, then when it came up again in later books she maybe realized that what she'd said wouldn't work, but it was too late then. In other words, it just hadn't been planned all the way out clearly. But it's interesting that in this case it's something that was said in the very last, most recent book. All the others are done. Surely it would be planned out by now? It's very confusing.

It seems to me to be contradictory just in the very statement -- photos move, portraits move and talk, and ghosts move, talk, and think (thus implying that portraits don't think.) But I would argue that by the very definition of "talking" that portraits would have to think! (OK, leave aside the obvious joke here about people to speak without thinking... ) If the portrait was just "talking" in that it was playing back what it said while it was being painted, for example, so that it was rather like watching a movie, then I'd say yes, it's not really thinking. But that's not the case! They respond to questions. They interact. Their voices are triggered by something, and it changes according to the situation. I don't see how the "something" can be anything other than thinking.

I think JKR just mis-spoke. She's trying to make a convenient definition, but it doesn't fit her "facts" that she's already given us. Nothing really new there -- it's happened a lot.

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Mare - Feb 4, 2009 8:32 am (#111 of 128)
I think she needs the portraits to be sentient and thinking (after all what is the point of having all these headmasters there if they don't contribute somehow?)
The problem arises with Dumbledore's portrait because he is the first person we have known before he became a portrait. And I think that she would have loved for the portraits to be thinking, contributing "persons", but story wise she also very much needed Dumbledore to be dead. For Harry to end his journey on his own.

So it isn't so much how much portraits can comprehend or adapt, but that we understand that, even though quite extra-ordinary, they aren't exactly the same, you still lost a loved one.

Of course, in the final chapter when Harry rushes to DD's office this is all contradicted because portrait DD and Harry interact exactly as living DD and Harry would have done. Doesn't make a single difference at all that it's a portrait, could as well have been DD sitting behind his desk.

Sometimes Jo is little too convenient with her inventions.
Maybe we should start a thread: "things that were done very well in the books" to balance all the nitpicking...

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Orion - Feb 4, 2009 1:23 pm (#112 of 128)
I agree, Mare. The portraits seem to be quite as competent as living persons. Old Walburga and Sir Cadogan were quite as nutty when they were still running around, IMO. The only thing I wouldn't necessarily expect would be a complete personality change, but how often do you get that with a living person of a certain age?

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Mare - Feb 4, 2009 5:03 pm (#113 of 128)
I'm finding it easier to imagine Phineas having a change of mind (say his attitude towards our trio) then, say, Moaning Myrtle, who seems completely stuck in her ways...

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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 4, 2009 8:44 pm (#114 of 128)
Ghosts don't seem to be capable of changing, but then if they are a replica of a soul rather than an actual soul this is not surprising at all, it fits perfectly into the information Rowling provided in the Harry Potter series. Portraits haven't struck me as all that deep, less so than even ghosts. I guess that's why I have no problems with Rowling's Beedle the Bard information, because it matches my perceptions of her world as she laid it out in her books.

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 4, 2009 9:38 pm (#115 of 128)
Image Courtesy of Burgundyeyes at fanpop.com icons -- [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
To me the definition of Portraits being somewhere between a wizard photograph and a ghost is not accurate, IMO. I agree with both "sides" of the recent opinions. But it comes down to, for me, that DD's and Phineas's Portraits are more than simply how JKR defined them. Of course, her last reason being "it works for the plot" is valid!

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Elanor - Feb 4, 2009 10:40 pm (#116 of 128)
And let's not forget it's Dumbledore we're talking about! He was exceptionally talented, so his portrait must be too.

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Madam Pince - Feb 5, 2009 2:07 pm (#117 of 128)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
The problem arises with Dumbledore's portrait because he is the first person we have known before he became a portrait. --Mare

That is a very good observation.

Maybe we should start a thread: "things that were done very well in the books" to balance all the nitpicking...

Bwahahahaha!

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Michael Franz - Feb 6, 2009 3:36 pm (#118 of 128)
A Hogwarts portrait is the magical equivalent of a ROM construct from William Gibson's Neuromancer, and a ghost is the magical equivalent of an AI. In Neuromancer, Case asks the construct Dixie Flatline if he's sentient or not. Dixie responds that he feels sentient, but he's just software on a chip, so he could just be programmed to feel that way. He dismisses it as a "philosophical question." However, he notes that he isn't going to write a poem anytime soon, but an AI actually could.

What's the difference? I say the construct (and the portrait) do not actually have free will, while the ghost (and the AI) do. The AI named Wintermute seems to agree, saying he can easily predict what Dixie Flatline will do, but not what Case will do.

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Quinn Crockett - Feb 6, 2009 11:52 pm (#119 of 128)
"Yes! I'm impugning a continent!"
Hm... I thought this was the BtB thread and was very excited to see new posts. However, it seems to have been transmogrified into the Dumbledore thread 2.0 (or even the Potpourri thread).

Disappointing.....

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Madam Pince - Feb 7, 2009 6:09 am (#120 of 128)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Well, it started by analyzing a statement JKR made in Beedle, but you're right, it should probably be continued in the Portraits thread... (The Life of Portraits, in the Magical Items, Etc. Group Section Folder...)

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Mare - Feb 8, 2009 12:07 pm (#121 of 128)
Disappointing.....

Feel free to come up with a new item for discussion, we will happily join in...

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Mrs. Sirius - Feb 16, 2009 9:40 pm (#122 of 128)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Perhaps portraits mirror their originals. They can't think "on their own" but they can think as their originals would. So the portrait of an intelligent person would be more intelligent than the portrait of a stupid person. I think it is probable that a portrait cannot learn new skills and is not capable of significant personal development but it probably retains certain skills and characteristics of the original.

I think the the portrait in POA of the knight and his fat donkey is evidence of that. This knight goes around challenging everyone but he doesn't achieve much. He is pretty incompetent and is eventually fired as the portrait to Gryffindor Tower.

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jose043 - Feb 25, 2009 12:49 am (#123 of 128)
Hi All

Anne and I both loved Beedle the Bard. We found it very easy to read and are in the process of reading the full series again. Some of the tales are quite interesting to read and also the comments from JK and DD, as we got the Special Edition of the book.

Jose and Anne

Little Werewolves of West Aussie

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Mrs. Sirius - Feb 28, 2009 10:21 pm (#124 of 128)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
For Christmas my kids got me (at my urging) the paperback edition. I went to the living room, and found there on the shelf the hardcover edition from Bloomsbury (my husband the bookphile). I am almost afraid to ask, was this the $100. book??`"`'`"' shudder.

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Solitaire - Feb 28, 2009 11:22 pm (#125 of 128)
I have a hardcover version, but it is not the collector's version in the box. It only cost $8.

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Elanor - Mar 21, 2009 7:01 am (#126 of 128)
A couple of weeks ago, I have posted a few thoughts on the alchemy thread about the drawing on the Peverell grave that is to be found at the end of The Tale of the Three Brothers and also a question about the half-erased inscription that can be read on the grave. The full post can be read: here

Here's the part about the inscription itself:

"I was wondering about the drawing of the Peverell grave that is at the end of the Tale of the Three Brothers (p.93, UK). Drawn on the tombstone is the half erased Ignotus Peverell name, then, under it, the Deathly Hallows symbol (with a coffin on the left and crossed bones on the right) and then more words underneath.

I was wondering if the first line of the inscription could be "TEMPUS FUGIT". It starts with a T, then something that might be an 'E', next letter is hidden, then something that could be a 'P' (or a 'B'?) and 'US' in the end. Next word seems to begin with an 'F' (or an 'E'?) and the rest is hidden.

There is another word underneath that seems to end with "ANE", any ideas what it could be?

Tempus Fugit (Time Flees) is a Latin phrase often found on graves so it could fit, the more because it could underline the idea that there is no escape from death. I have no idea what the word underneath could be though."

Any ideas?

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Madam Pince - Mar 21, 2009 1:25 pm (#127 of 128)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Elanor, I have a really cool little book with tons of epitaphs in it -- funny ones, ones of famous people, etc. Unfortunately, I can't seem to lay my hands on it right now (although you led me a merry chase and I've spent the last 45 minutes looking for it ...I swear it was on the shelf with Thomas Paine...) When I find it, perhaps I'll have a thought.

I don't have a copy of "Beedle" and can't see the original illustration, but I'd bet your guess of Tempus Fugit is a good one. Nice detective work!

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Elanor - Mar 24, 2009 11:20 pm (#128 of 128)
Thanks Madam Pince! Your book sounds great! (OK, I've always loved visiting old cemetaries, they can "tell" so much about the past. Weird, I know! ). I hope you find it one of these days.