Malfoy's Task and The Vow

Lady Arabella Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:20 pm

The following is an archive of material originally posted on the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum, hosted by World Crossing, which ceased operations on April 15th, 2011

Lady Arabella Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:22 pm

Malfoy's Task & The Vow

T Vrana - Jan 21, 2007 5:34 am
Edited by Kip Carter Aug 4, 2007 6:33 am

Just after the release of HBP, I started a thread that questioned what Malfoy's original task was, and proposed that kidnapping Trelawney was the real task. The thread enjoyed a few weeks of life, but was eventually munched. In Oct '06 I resurrected the idea that Malfoy's had an original task that did not involve killing DD, but something else (not just kidnapping Trelawney). The thread was granted permanent status and brought out some great ideas (not mine), but was accidently munched recently. It was suggested, by Kip, that I start the thread once more, in hopes that there is still an interest in the ideas that were posted, and to give a chance for new posters to add their thoughts.

I was able to find parts of the thread cached by Google, so I'll start the thread as I did in Oct, with some slight editing:

I am not convinced that Draco Malfoy's original assignment from LV was to kill DD.

1. Draco is a coward who turns a lighter shade of pale at the mention of stepping into the Forbidden Forest, but he's confident and relaxed on the train knowing he has to kill the most powerful wizard in the wizarding world? LV and all the DEs are afraid of DD, but Malfoy acts like it is no big deal.

2. Malfoy knows before the start of term that he wants to fix the vanishing cabinet. But in the end, he is supposed to be on the tower alone waiting for DD. He spent the entire school year, and several hours, crying in the bathroom, on a plan that amounted to little more than waiting for DD somewhere and AKing him? Why such a complicated and difficult plan for such a simple ending? It seems to me he could have accomplished the same task just hiding behind a suit of armor and waiting for DD to return from one of his many excursions. Why the need for all the DEs, the hours in the RoR, the tears? Was he stalling or did he have another assignment?

3. Draco has only been working on the cabinet for 6 weeks when he decides to try the necklace. Dumb plan that didn't have a chance of working. Why did he even try it? Harry suggests that Malfoy would want revenge for his father's imprisonment, and I agree. I think the attempt on DD's life, lame as it was, was an independent act of revenge.

4. Draco looks terrible just before Christmas, but he is still rather cocky with Snape.

5. Post Christmas he seems to have lost all his confidence and swagger.

6. Last year, LV desperately wanted the prophecy. Now he's lost interest?

7. Lucius failed to get the prophecy. Wouldn't it make more sense to punish Draco by insisting he get what his father botched?

8. Last time LV showed up in Hogsmeade with a bunch of DEs, DD was sure he was after something in Hogwarts.

9. Trelawney, DD and Harry are the only known sources of the prophecy. LV is afraid of DD and doesn't want to meet Harry again until he's completely ready. I think this includes hearing the complete prophecy.

10. Trelawney was last seen near the RoR.

So, I think it is possible that Malfoy's original task had to do with getting something in or out of Hogwarts. DEs in to get something, perhaps Trelawney, or something else, out, perhaps something in the RoR, perhaps something elsewhere in the castle. This seems to support the need for the cabinet more than the plan to kill DD. True, Draco shoved Trelawney out just after he fixed the cabinet, but he would have needed time to let the DEs know the cabinet was fixed and he was ready.

I think LV was angry when Draco returned home for Christmas without getting the job done, and discovered that Draco had taken it upon himself to try and kill DD (perhaps to gain favor with LV, perhaps because he was having a hard time with the cabinet, or perhaps, as suggested above, for his own revenge). LV's reaction was to pile on, 'So, my first assignment wasn't enough? Fine, now do both the original task and, since that wasn't enough, kill DD. And, Draco, get it done or I'll kill you, and your family.'

Contrast this to Harry's situation with DD and the Slughorn memory. Similar situation, Harry working on something else, but DD's reaction is simply quiet disappointment.

This would fit the Narcissa's comment that not even the Dark Lord has been able to: get into Hogwarts, get the prophecy etc. And it would mean that the Vow Snape took was not to kill DD.

Thoughts?
*********
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

painting sheila - Jan 21, 2007 12:08 pm (#1 of 287)

I am so excited to be post #1!

One of the goals in my life has been fulfilled!

Now on to my post -

I think Malfoy bit off more than he could chew.

As a mother, I can tell when my kids are in over their heads long before they can. And, if the situation merits, I will try and lay ground work to help them through the situation - without their knowing. I want them to succeed, but I also want them to learn from their mistakes.

I think the "assignment" made by LV to Draco was something on a smaller scale - find the broken vanishing cabinet? Keep tabs on Harry? On DD? Report all strange behaviors of HRH?

Then I think, once LV had Draco "trapped", he kept adding more to the assignment - or expanding it. Draco foolishly continued to think he could do whatever LV had asked of him because of the baby steps in which it had been presented.

Once Draco realized EXACTLY what LV wanted him to do - kill DD - it was too late. His pride and fear got the better of him and he - with ut direction - continued to move forward.

I think Narcissa knew LV a lot better than Draco and understood that LV never asked his followers to do small and simple things. She could tell sense that something much larger and dangerous had to be around the corner.

Narcissa speaking to Snape was her acting as any mother would - lay a ground work to help her son.

Whew!I am sure I have left holes and important thoughts out - but this is a start anyway.

Have at it!

She

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

rambkowalczyk - Jan 21, 2007 12:21 pm (#2 of 287)

It's a shame the last batch got munched because there were so many good ideas.

Draco's mission could have been more than just kill Dumbledore. Voldemort could have told Draco his mission was to find a way to get the Death Eaters into the castle and kill Dumbledore but made Draco promise not to reveal to anyone about the part to kill Dumbledore. This would be to insure that Draco himself did the killing and not get Snape to do it.

If Draco failed to kill Dumbledore, it wouldn't matter much to Voldemort because his primary objective, getting in to Hogwarts, would still be accomplished and he can now justify to himself killing Lucius' family for revenge.

Although Voldemort may still have wanted Snape to do it in the end, I think he wanted Draco to go through the pain of knowing he couldn't kill Voldemort and as a result die.

The only problem I have with the above theory and yours is that it doesn't ring true for me that Narcissa would be that hysterical about getting Death Eaters in the castle. But to actually kill Dumbledore puts Draco more at risk because in her eyes Dumbledore would swat him like the fly he is. So to me Narcissa is hysterical because she knows it's Draco mission to kill Dumbledore.

The other possibility is that Draco is given two missions: kill Dumbledore and find a way in, but Snape only knows about the kill Dumbledore. I wonder how much Voldemort trusts Snape not to tell Dumbledore about the other part. Voldemort would suspect Snape of telling Dumbledore about the plot to kill him so while Dumbledore is busy protecting himself it is easy to kidnap Tralawney.

I don't think Draco knows about the plan to kidnap Tralawney. And I like to think that Dumbledore anticipated this and has Tralawney safely hidden.

edit: I like your idea Painting Sheila.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 21, 2007 2:04 pm (#3 of 287)

I can't see Dumbledore having the time to hide Trelawney. He and Harry left the castle just a few minutes after he tells Harry about Snape. Afraid she is fair game in my opinion.

I believe that Narcissa realizes that Draco - as much as she loves him - is a snotty little twit and incapable of performing the entire task as given to him by Voldemort. She knows probably by past history that this is the way Voldemort punishes failure by his DE's. Since Draco did not perform the entire task, I wonder how Voldemort will punish him? Or if he will. He may be so happy that Dumbledore appears to be dead that he won't do a thing. NAW!!

Mickey

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

painting sheila - Jan 21, 2007 4:06 pm (#4 of 287)

With Lucius out of the picture, Draco failing at his task - I can imagine that Narcissa is fearing for her own safety also.

She may go into hiding to try and help her husband and son from afar.

Maybe she will also become a double agent. I guess it just depends on who she hates - and fears - the most.

Narcissa may have heard rumblings of LV having someone in Hogwarts kill DD. She may have correctly guess that LV was setting up Draco - even though Draco wasn't aware

(Thank you rambkowalczyk. You make several solid points. the group of us should be able to figure this out in no time! HA! (not))

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jan 21, 2007 7:22 pm (#5 of 287)

Painting sheila- I like the idea that LV started with something smaller than kill DD, to lure Malfoy in, but, unless Draco was lying, it was Draco's idea to use the Vanishing Cabinet, so I don’t think finding it was a task. But, getting something out, Trelawney, whatever LV was after when he asked for the teaching position, or in, DE's would still fit.

rambko- The only problem I have with the above theory and yours is that it doesn't ring true for me that Narcissa would be that hysterical about getting Death Eaters in the castle.

I see your point, but if we look at it through Narcissa's eyes I think she could be hysterical if she thinks:

1) Draco may end up in Azkaban for bringing DEs into the castle. He husband is already imprisoned, and losing her 17 year old son to prison would be horrible.

2) DD will act as LV does. Regulus was killed for the 'crime' of not wanting to be a DE any longer. What would LV do to a traitor who brought the Order to his headquarters?

It may not be just getting DEs in, but something out, something small enough that Filch feels the need to use a secresy probe on students leaving the castle.

If the original task was to kill DD, and Snape is not totally evil, he is rather calm for a man who knows either Draco or he must kill DD. Snape is upset just before Christmas, but toward the end of the year, he's setting Harry rather boring detentions, and implying they will continue on the following year.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Solitaire - Jan 21, 2007 8:42 pm (#6 of 287)

Voldemort could have told Draco his mission was to find a way to get the Death Eaters into the castle

I agree with this. I, too, believe killing Dumbledore may have been involved, since I doubt Draco would have attempted such a stunt, had he not been instructed to do so. I think the wine and the necklace were "long distance" attempts to do the job, because he was afraid of the consequences if he tried to do it in person. I think he was more afraid of the consequences of killing Dumbledore than of the possibility that Dumbledore might kill him. I think Draco was arrogant enough to believe that he had the skill to do it, if required. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

painting sheila - Jan 21, 2007 8:52 pm (#7 of 287)

T Vrana - I wouldn't put it past Draco to lie - or to boast about something he knows nothing about.

Snape - I am thinking he was thinking that it would never come to some having to kill DD. I truly think (and I am not a huge Snape fan) that Snape took the Vow thinking that it would never come down to the wire.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 22, 2007 9:47 am (#8 of 287)

Knowing Draco he probably figured on coming up on Dumbledore from the rear. He definitely is a back stabbing little twit.

Doubt if he could lie to Voldemort and get away with it Sheila.

But maybe it’s just that I don't like the little twit!

Mickey

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jan 22, 2007 10:01 am (#9 of 287)

I wouldn't put it past Draco to lie - or to boast about something he knows nothing about.

Except he told DD this on the tower, and I have the impression, perhaps wrong, that Draco was compelled to tell the truth, either out of nervousness or DD's influence.

Snape - I am thinking he was thinking that it would never come to some having to kill DD

But one of them had to kill DD at some point. I'm amazed at Snape's calm when Draco still appears to be getting nowhere, and the year end is fast approaching.

If the original task was to kill DD, why did Malfoy completely stop his attempts, other than the vanishing cabinet, after Christmas? Once it gets to the point that he's sobbing to Moaning Myrtle, and in fear for his and his family's life, it seems odd he doesn't try something, anything, out of desperation. Instead he continues to plod on with the Vanishing Cabinet. And in the end, he waits alone for DD. Why not do that earlier in the year? With his coin he could have ambushed DD after any number of excursions DD took that year.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

haymoni - Jan 22, 2007 11:23 am (#10 of 287)

Then the book would have been a lot shorter.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jan 22, 2007 11:29 am (#11 of 287)

Haymoni- LOL!

Not too much shorter, I would have hoped by the time he was sobbing in the bathroom (Spring) he might have been desperate enough to try something.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Laura W - Jan 22, 2007 11:41 am (#12 of 287)

Well, we may think that Draco gave up on his task to kill Dumbledore just after Christmas, but neither Malfoy nor Dumbledore does. Note this part of the Tower conversation (which took place near the end of the school year):

(Malfoy): "You don't know what I'm capable of. You don't know what I've done!"

(DD): "Oh yes I do. You almost killed Katie Bell and Ronald Weasley. You have been trying, with increasing desperation, to kill me all year. Forgive me, Draco, but they have been feeble attempts ... I wonder whether your heart has been really in it ..."

(Malfoy): "It has been in it! I've been working on it all year ..."

There is no doubt, from the wording above, that the task they are talking about is specifically the killing of DD and that they both see Draco as having been working on accomplishing that task all year (albeit not working on it too hard in Dumbledore's opinion).

And later in the conversation, Malfoy tells DD he has no other option but to kill the Headmaster because if he doesn't, "He'll kill me! He'll kill my whole family!" to which DD replies, "I did dare not speak to you of the mission with which I knew you had been entrusted, in case he used Legilimency against you. But now at last we can speak plainly to each other ... no harm has been done, you have hurt nobody ..."

In other words, Draco - according to DD - has not yet accomplished the task LV gave him. Nobody has yet been hurt (read, killed). Obviously, just getting the DEs into the castle was not, to DD, the task; and he makes no mention of Draco getting anything out of the school (as being the task). Dumbledore might be wrong about the task, but I definitely read that conversation on the Astronomy Tower to mean that he saw Draco's task as being to kill him.

That makes perfect sense to me when I read the Spinner's End chapter. It would be a task so immense that Voldemort would be practically guaranteed Draco would fail. Thus, as Snape correctly told Narcissa, LV is really expecting that Snape would be the one to carry it out in the end. This would - in Tom's mind - be a loyalty test for Severus. Also, by setting Draco the job of killing DD, it allows Tom Riddle to further punish the Malfoys - when Draco fails him, as he inevitably will - for Lucius' blunder concerning the prophecy disk (and, while he's at it, for Lucius' blunder concerning the diary/Horcrux four years earlier).

I don't know where fixing the Vanishing Cabinet and letting the DEs into the school fits in with this. Unless it was Draco's own idea to further ingratiate himself with the Dark Lord; and to supplant Snape or Bellatrix or anyone as Voldemort's "favourite" by getting the DEs in, which Dumbledore had always said was impossible. Draco would absolutely LOVE that honour.

Laura

----------------------------------------------

Edited To Add --

Good one, haymoni!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jan 22, 2007 12:20 pm (#13 of 287)

Laura- There is no doubt, from the wording above, that the task they are talking about is specifically the killing of DD and that they both see Draco as having been working on accomplishing that task all year (albeit not working on it too hard in Dumbledore's opinion).

Yes, Draco has been trying to kill DD all year, but, the conversation continues, I think, with Malfoy saying "and tonight...", but he's interrupted by noise of the battle below. I think he had more to say. It may have been only, "And tonight I'm going to kill you". Or it may be something else.

Draco has been trying to kill DD, but I think it is possible that Harry was right, Draco wanted to kill DD for revenge, not for LV.

I do think LV added killing DD over Christmas, as punishment for not staying on task, so it is part of his task by the time of the tower.

Yes, killing DD does fit what we read, perfectly, but that's what makes me suspicious. Did anyone doubt, once Malfoy caught Harry on the train, that killing DD was the task? It seems to me Jo was more transparent than she's ever been before, very early in the book, if this is the case.

I don't know where fixing the Vanishing Cabinet and letting the DEs into the school fits in with this. Unless it was Draco's own idea to further ingratiate himself with the Dark Lord; and to supplant Snape or Bellatrix or anyone as Voldemort's "favorite" by getting the DEs in, which Dumbledore had always said was impossible. Draco would absolutely LOVE that honor

But you make my case, a bit. DD thought it was impossible, I think LV did too.

Remember that Cissy says Draco has to do something even LV has not succeeded in doing. But we know from Slughorn that LV has never sought a fight with DD. I take that to mean he has avoided DD, has not tried himself, or through his DEs to kill him. The only encounter we know about is the MoM, and I don't think LV or Bella would admit to anyone that he couldn't kill DD. I would bet they made excuses about Aurors showing up.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Laura W - Jan 22, 2007 1:32 pm (#14 of 287)

Yes, Draco has been trying to kill DD all year, but, the conversation continues, I think, with Malfoy saying and tonight...", but he's interrupted by noise of the battle below. I think he had more to say. It may have been only, "And tonight I'm going to kill you"."

I thought it would be "And tonight is when it will happen" or "And tonight, you have given me my opportunity" or "And tonight, my task will be fulfilled." Or some such. Of course, Jo conveniently put a stop to that comment so, for all we know, Draco was going to say something like, "And tonight I have changed my mind. I don't want to follow the Dark Lord anymore. He's not a nice man." Even as I write that, I'm thinking, "Yeah, right! When flobberworms fly!" But I guess anything is possible.

I don't know where fixing the Vanishing Cabinet and letting the DEs into the school fits in with this. Unless it was Draco's own idea to further ingratiate himself with the Dark Lord; and to supplant Snape or Bellatrix or anyone as Voldemort's favorite" by getting the DEs in, which Dumbledore had always said was impossible. Draco would absolutely LOVE that honour." (LW)

But you make my case, a bit. DD thought it was impossible, I think LV did too. (T. Vrana)

Hmm. I *did* sort of argue against myself by putting in that bit about how getting the DEs into Hogwarts was - because of Dumbledore's spells protecting the castle - impossible.

Yet, Dumbledore says to Draco on the Tower that he knows what the task was and that he is surprised that the Death Eaters got into Hogwarts and is very interested in learning from Malfoy how he accomplished this feat. If the task actually was to get the DEs into Hogwarts, then Dumbledore was wrong when he said he knew what the task was. Obviously he didn't. Do you see the same contradiction here that I do?

Laura

--------------------------------------------------------------------

EDITED TO ADD -

Just thought of something else. Snape tells Cissy that he is fully aware what Draco's task is and that he is certain that Voldemort intends for him (Severus) to carry it out in the end. If the original task was only to get Death Eaters into Hogwarts, how was Snape going to do that? Through the Vanishing Cabinets, as Draco did? By another method a wizard much more talented than Draco (ie - Snape) would be able to accomplish despite the spells DD put on the castle? Or was Snape acting when he claimed to even know what Draco's task was?

I know the answer that the task was to kill Dumbledore is almost too obvious, but I just don't believe LV said to the young Death Nibbler, "Draco, I am going to give you a great and horrible task to perform for your Lord and Master. I want you to figure out a way to have my loyal followers appear at Hogwarts School before the school year is over. If you accomplish this, you will be honoured above all others."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jan 22, 2007 1:57 pm (#15 of 287)

Yes, and no.

I think DD assumed he knew what Draco's task was, as we all did, that is, to kill him.

LOL on the end of Malfoy's sentence. But, other than "And tonight its going to happen", it could have been "And tonight, not only am I going to kill you, but the DEs are going to _________", fill in the blank with whatever you think WAS the reason for so many DEs in the castle. Kidnapping Trelawney for the prophecy (which Lucius failed to get), whatever he was after when he asked for the teaching job and arrived in Hogsmeade with a pack of DEs, etc.

EDITED TO RESPOND: Snape, as a trusted Order member, and teacher, was able to open the gates at the start of HBP. So, I think it would actually be easy for him to get DEs in, because DD trusts him.

I don't think he would have phrased it that way. He may have said he needed the prophecy, he needed Trelawney. It was a very important task just a year before. Or whatever he was after that night mentioned above. It may be that whatever DD though he was after is a very big deal.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

rambkowalczyk - Jan 22, 2007 5:50 pm (#16 of 287)

I can't see Dumbledore having the time to hide Trelawney. He and Harry left the castle just a few minutes after he tells Harry about Snape. Afraid she is fair game in my opinion. MickeyCee3948

Good point. Dumbledore does know that there have been attempts to get Sybil out of the castle. (Umbridge trying to fire her in OOP). And before Dumbledore and Harry left, Harry did tell Dumbledore of Draco's Ah-Ha moment. Granted Dumbledore didn't think there was a way for the Death Eaters to get into the castle and this could be his major error I still remain optimistic that Sybil is safe. Also I misplaced my HBP, I thought after Harry told Dumbledore about Draco's Ah-ha, that Harry had to go back to his dorm to get his Invisibility Cloak. This should have been enough time for Dumbledore to have done something.

Since Draco did not perform the entire task, I wonder how Voldemort will punish him? Or if he will. He may be so happy that Dumbledore appears to be dead that he won't do a thing. NAW!! MickeyCee3948

I think this depends on how badly Voldemort wanted Dumbledore dead and if Draco accomplish his other mission whatever that was. For instance if the goal was to Kill Dumbledore and kidnap Sybil and they succeeded in both, I think Malfoy family will get a temporary reprieve. But if they didn't get Sybil, then the Malfoys have every right to fear Voldemort's wrath, even if Draco had no idea that the other Death Eaters were kidnapping Sybil.

It may not be just getting DEs in, but something out, something small enough that Filch feels the need to use a secrecy probe on students leaving the castle. T Vrana

This makes me wonder if there is another possible object that could be used as a horcrux. But if there was and Dumbledore knew of it, he would have told Harry. Just to be certain did Filch use a secrecy sensor on Students leaving Hogwarts as well as when they entered?

If the original task was to kill DD, and Snape is not totally evil, he is rather calm for a man who knows either Draco or he must kill DD. Snape is upset just before Christmas, but toward the end of the year, he's setting Harry rather boring detentions, and implying they will continue on the following year. T Vrana

Good point, but just as you can believe that Narcissa can be hysterical about getting Death Eaters in the castle, I can believe that Snape can act blasé about the possibility of having to kill Dumbledore. When Draco and Dumbledore talk in the tower do you accept that at that point Draco has to kill Dumbledore? I am assuming your answer is yes, which means that if it wasn't the original task, it became so at some point. So I think when Snape gave his detention to Harry, it was Draco's task. Am I making sense here?

Perhaps Snape is calm, because Dumbledore has a plan and at this moment Snape trusts him. Just because we know the climax happens in June doesn't mean that Snape does.

If the original task was to kill DD, why did Malfoy completely stop his attempts, other than the vanishing cabinet, after Christmas? Once it gets to the point that he's sobbing to Moaning Myrtle, and in fear for his and his family's life, it seems odd he doesn't try something, anything, out of desperation. Instead he continues to plod on with the Vanishing Cabinet. And in the end, he waits alone for DD. Why not do that earlier in the year? With his coin he could have ambushed DD after any number of excursions DD took that year. T Vrana

Yes this has me thinking as well. But maybe at this point Draco is just not thinking clearly because he is afraid. To ambush DD on one of his excursions would require him to leave the castle grounds. This may not be easy to do because of heightened security. I don't think he knows of the unguarded tunnels. Although Draco seems powerful enough to do the Imperious Curse, I would doubt that he could make Rosmerta kill anyone.

Is it possible that Draco's mission to kill Dumbledore was changed to kill him in front of witnesses in which case getting the vanishing cabinet to work is crucial. Or maybe Draco realized that he had to do both parts of the mission and that doing one wasn't sufficient.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Laura W - Jan 22, 2007 6:06 pm (#17 of 287)

T. Vrana wrote: "Snape, as a trusted Order member, and teacher, was able to open the gates at the start of HBP. So, I think it would actually be easy for him to get DEs in, because DD trusts him."

That's true. Which means, if the task LV gave to Draco *was* just letting the DEs in, and if Snape knew that was what it was; he wasn't really taking much of a risk in agreeing to the third part of the Unbreakable Vow. After all, he would be agreeing to carry out Draco's task (ie - getting DEs into the castle), which he obviously could do just by opening the front gate.

This is another reason I do not think that the task was just to get the Death Eaters in. Too easy for Snape to accomplish. No reason for his hand to twitch when Narcissa demanded the third part. Nope, Draco's task had to be something which would be difficult - either physically or emotionally - for Severus to do when young Malfoy failed. Or something that would put Snape in danger while doing it or afterwards. Something that Bella (who knew what the task was) never thought Severus would agree to do. (Thus, the surprised look on her face when he went along with taking the Unbreakable Vow.)

As you pointed out, T, letting the DEs into the castle would have been both easy and no-risk to the Potions Master. That cannot be said of killing Dumbledore (or perhaps something else).

Laura

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 22, 2007 6:21 pm (#18 of 287)

Laura W. wrote (a long time ago) - I don't know where fixing the Vanishing Cabinet and letting the DEs into the school fits in with this. Unless it was Draco's own idea to further ingratiate himself with the Dark Lord; and to supplant Snape or Bellatrix or anyone as Voldemort's "favourite" by getting the DEs in, which Dumbledore had always said was impossible. Draco would absolutely LOVE that honour.

I've always felt Draco wanted the DE's in the school for "moral support" (using the word moral is odd when discussing Draco)...

DD to Draco on the Tower:

...are you acting alone?

No, he said. "I've got back-up."

Edit: Just had a creepy thought. Getting DE's into the school could be Bella's idea suggested to Draco. Draco doesn't want Severus *stealing his glory*, which is mentioned in the same scene as Severus noticing Bella has been teaching Draco Occlumency. I wonder if Bella was determined for Severus to fail in helping Draco so Severus would die from not fulfilling the Vow?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

painting sheila - Jan 22, 2007 6:57 pm (#19 of 287)

me and my shadow - Good ONE! I just see Draco as being to overwhelmed to come up with so many ideas - the two tries at killing DD, the vanishing cabinet, the DE's in Hogwarts . .. it just seems to much for him - in my opinion.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madam Pince - Jan 22, 2007 9:46 pm (#20 of 287)

Sheila, can I just randomly say here that if your Oldest Son had been the right age at the time of tryouts for the movie part of Draco Malfoy, he would have been a shoo-in?! (Don't take that the wrong way -- I know he's a good boy and nothing like Draco in personality, obviously! But in your avatar he's just got "that look" to me! Just as I'd have pictured Draco!)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

haymoni - Jan 23, 2007 6:24 am (#21 of 287)

Once Dumbledore was killed, I would think the DEs would have tried to take the school.

But they ran into the Order, so it couldn't be done.

What is the point of killing Dumbledore if not to take the school?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

painting sheila - Jan 23, 2007 6:28 am (#22 of 287)

Ha! Madame Pince - When we did Harry Potter the Musical he DID play Draco and spot on I might add. It was a little scary how well he played the bad guy. He slicked his hair back and everything! If I find a picture, I will post it - such a fun thing!

speaking of acting - I think Draco has been a big act from the beginning. He is afraid of his father and always demeaned by his dad. If the relationship we have seen of Draco and Lucius - in public - is a taste of what happens at home, I can actually see Draco having a poor self-esteem. He is all bravado at school, but inside he doubts himself and his worth.

Narcissa knows this and protects her son at all cost - against everyone but dad.

We really don't know Draco's skill level as a wizard - do we?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jan 23, 2007 8:24 am (#23 of 287)

Yes this has me thinking as well. But maybe at this point Draco is just not thinking clearly because he is afraid. To ambush DD on one of his excursions would require him to leave the castle grounds. This may not be easy to do because of heightened security. I don't think he knows of the unguarded tunnels. Although Draco seems powerful enough to do the Imperious Curse, I would doubt that he could make Rosmerta kill anyone.

But he was able to get her to poison a bottle of mead. Why not get her to poison a glass of mead when he stops in for a drink, which he must at times.

As for Draco needing to leave the castle to AK DD, not need, he can AK in the 7th floor corridor.

That's true. Which means, if the task LV gave to Draco *was* just letting the DEs in, and if Snape knew that was what it was; he wasn't really taking much of a risk in agreeing to the third part of the Unbreakable Vow. After all, he would be agreeing to carry out Draco's task (ie - getting DEs into the castle), which he obviously could do just by opening the front gate.

This is another reason I do not think that the task was just to get the Death Eaters in. Too easy for Snape to accomplish. No reason for his hand to twitch when Narcissa demanded the third part. Nope, Draco's task had to be something which would be difficult - either physically or emotionally - for Severus to do when young Malfoy failed. Or something that would put Snape in danger while doing it or afterwards. Something that Bella (who knew what the task was) never thought Severus would agree to do. (Thus, the surprised look on her face when he went along with taking the Unbreakable Vow.)

Just getting them in would be easy. I don't think the 'getting in' is the task, but getting something out. Letting DEs in to Hogwarts and making sure they get what they need involves danger for the students, and depending what it is they want retrieved, danger if LV gets his hands on it.

EDIT- It may also be that Snape was lying and did not know what the task was and flinched because he did not know what he was agreeing to.

Once Dumbledore was killed, I would think the DEs would have tried to take the school.

But they ran into the Order, so it couldn't be done.

What is the point of killing Dumbledore if not to take the school?

Good point. They did not bring enough DEs to take the school, even without the Order. It would be very difficult for the handful of DEs to take over from all the teachers and all the students. So, if taking over the school was not part of the plan, why kill DD? They also leave Harry. I don't think LV wants to risk another meeting with Harry until he is completely ready. This includes fixing the brother wand problem (missing Ollivander)and hearing the prophecy LV wanted so desperately 'last year'. Trelawney is the only source other than DD or Harry.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 23, 2007 9:46 am (#24 of 287)

I seriously doubt that Voldemort actually expected Draco to accomplish the task. Draco was stupid enough to make the offer in the first place and Voldemort just decided to let the kid try. When he fails, I'll just AK him as punishment for his father’s failure. I notice that none of the DE's that were at Hogwarts also took part in the MOM attack. In particular Bellatrix and Peter! You would think that Voldemort would have learned about the competence of his DE's and sent more. Could the fact that he sent so few indicate he really didn't believe they would succeed.

Mickey

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jan 23, 2007 9:57 am (#25 of 287)

Or that he doesn't have many to spare! He just lost his most competent bunch to Azkaban. And while I understand he wants to punish the Malfoy's, giving Draco an impossible task just to get him killed is a waste of a perfectly eager little DE. I'm not sure LV has a huge following at this point. Can he really spare one, or more if the DEs he sends with him are caught or killed, on a mission he is sure will fail? I have to think he planned to get something out of the sacrifice other than revenge alone.

Lady Arabella Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:25 pm

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

rambkowalczyk - Jan 23, 2007 10:21 am (#26 of 287)

What is the point of killing Dumbledore if not to take the school? Haymoni

The last time Voldemort tried to kill Harry, didn't Dumbledore stop him? I think Voldemort knows that to Harry Dumbledore is a protector. With Dumbledore dead Harry could lose confidence.

We really don't know Draco's skill level as a wizard - do we? Painting Sheila

Although Draco may be a coward, I still think he's quite competent. He did put the Imperious Curse on an adult. I think he is in all of Harry's NEWT level classes. We think just because Harry has bested him a few times he is not good. But he shouldn't be underestimated.

But he was able to get her to poison a bottle of mead. Why not get her to poison a glass of mead when he stops in for a drink, which he must at times. T Vrana

Putting poison in a bottle of mead has the possibility that the bottle will never be opened. Putting poison in a glass of something that someone is about to drink is closer to murder. It's possible Rosmerta could have fought against this.

Just getting them in would be easy. I don't think the 'getting in' is the task, but getting something out. T Vrana

I'm beginning to think this is the crux of the matter. As pointed out before why was Filch using the secrecy sensor on students going to Hogsmeade. What possible object could Voldemort be looking for?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jan 23, 2007 10:25 am (#27 of 287)

He did put the Imperious Curse on an adult.

Nitpicking, but do we know he did this? He didn't go into Hogsmeade, unless it was before the start of term. He was working with adult accomplices. I had thought one of them Imperiused Rosmerta.

What possible object could Voldemort be looking for?

I have to think this is going to be one of the big surprises in DH, as DD made a point that he thought LV was after something at Hogwarts, when he asked for the teaching position.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

rambkowalczyk - Jan 23, 2007 10:42 am (#28 of 287)

He was working with adult accomplices. I had thought one of them Imperiused Rosmerta.

It's possible but it sounds more complicated. Wouldn't that mean that an adult would have to be continually around Rosmerta to make sure the spell doesn't wear off? Whereas I was thinking that Draco could Imperius her through the coin? Yes this is a stretch as well.

Suppose the object is the trophy that Tom won for "Special Services to the School". In Tom's sick mind he would think that killing Dumbledore was a special Service. Perhaps he wants to use it as a horcrux to replace the diary.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Soul Search - Jan 23, 2007 11:31 am (#29 of 287)

We know from the pensieve scenes and Dumbledore's statements that Tom Riddle liked collecting trophies. He had the trophy compulsion before his desire for horcrux objects. Could he have just wanted some trophy from Hogwarts.

Only canon object I can think of is the Special Services award.

Given that Tom Riddle had to do a lot of research to discover the Chamber of Secrets, I would guess he also found the RoR and the storeroom. He could have secreted anything either in the Chamber or the RoR storeroom. It takes speaking Parsletongue to open the Chamber, so the storeroom seems more likely for death eaters to retrieve something from.

Coincidently(?), Harry also knows of both these secret places.

Draco used the RoR storeroom for his work on the cabinet. He says he learned about it from Harry's DA experience, but that may not be exactly true. Harry did not use the storeroom on OotP. How did Draco know the cabinet was in the storeroom, or how did he know of the storeroom to take the cabinet there? Is it possible Voldemort told him about the storeroom because he wanted something from it?

Yes, it is possible he just asked the RoR where the cabinet was, but it seems a bit of a stretch. I am suspicious of the storeroom; it will, no doubt, play a role in DH.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

mona amon - Jan 24, 2007 4:09 am (#30 of 287)

Yet, Dumbledore says to Draco on the Tower that he knows what the task was and that he is surprised that the Death Eaters got into Hogwarts and is very interested in learning from Malfoy how he accomplished this feat. If the task actually was to get the DEs into Hogwarts, then Dumbledore was wrong when he said he knew what the task was. Obviously he didn't. Do you see the same contradiction here that I do?-Laura

Not really a contradiction, Laura. Even if letting in the DE's was part of the task, and DD knew this, he could still be surprised that Draco had actually accomplished this, when he, DD, thought it was impossible.

It may also be that Snape was lying and did not know what the task was and flinched because he did not know what he was agreeing to.T Vrana

Snape is able to hide his emotions even from the great LV. I feel that nothing less than the thought of killing DD could have caused that twitch.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jan 24, 2007 12:48 pm (#31 of 287)

MONA AMON- .I feel that nothing less than the thought of killing DD could have caused that twitch.

You may be right, but for me a few things could cause the flinch:

1) If Snape did not know what the task was. He is taking the Unbreakable Vow, the assumption being he will die if he fails. If he does not know what it is, how can he do it? He can't admit he doesn't know to Bella and Cissy. And we saw that Draco was no help.

2) If he knew what it was and it was to deliver Trelawney to LV.

3) If he did not know what it was, but thought it was to kill Harry.

4) If he did not know and just did not want to commit to a vow that could end in death without knowing what he was committing to.

Snape did say he thought LV would want Draco to do it so he, Snape could stay at Hogwarts and continue his spy duties. With DD dead, why would he assume, in the current environment of fear and uncertainty, that anyone would leave their child at Hogwarts and that Hogwarts would remain open. The very first thought after DD's death was 'should we close the school". Who would Snape spy on?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Laura W - Jan 24, 2007 12:51 pm (#32 of 287)

"Not really a contradiction, Laura. Even if letting in the DE's was part of the task, and DD knew this ,he could still be surprised that Draco had actually accomplished this, when he, DD, thought it was impossible." (mona amon)

Thanks for responding to my comment, mona. You might be right.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

T. Vrana. Re your possibilities on why Snape's hand twitched (aside from the task being to kill DD, as I and mona think it was):

1. That is a legitimate possibility (although not a theory I strongly subscribe to at this moment).

2. I do not think this task would be too difficult for a wizard of Snape's talent and cunning. He could Imperious her or in some other way get her to leave the grounds and then have her Apparate (under the Imperious Curse) to where Voldemort is. Or he could probably create an illegal Portkey and send her to him. (Since Trelawney is frequently under the "spell" of that Muggle sherry anyway, I do not think it would be too difficult to manipulate her - using magic or not - to do something she normally would not.) I don't think this task would be dangerous enough to Snape to have his hand twitch during the taking of the Unbreakable. Whatever else he is, Severus is a very brave wizard.

3. Come on! Severus knows better than anyone (except for Dumbledore and Harry) that it must be Voldemort who kills Harry Potter. Severus says this to Bellatrix in the Spinner's End chapter and also to the huge Death Eater in the Flight of the Prince chapter of HBP ("Have you forgotten our orders? Potter belongs to the Dark Lord - ".). No way he would think the task given to Draco was to kill Harry.

4. You are basically saying the same thing as in 1. and my response is the same as I wrote to your point 1.

Laura

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

TomProffitt - Jan 24, 2007 2:30 pm (#33 of 287)

Part one of the Vow:

“Will you, Severus, watch over my son, Draco, as he attempts to fulfill the Dark Lord's wishes?”

implies that Snape needs to help Draco complete the Task. So, even though Snape doesn't have to directly complete the Task he would still be in deep trouble if he attempted to prevent Draco from fulfilling the Task.

Part Two:

“And will you, to the best of your ability, protect him from harm?”

implies the same even more strongly. Draco will most definitely be harmed should he fail to complete the Task.

So the Third Part, Snape taking over the Vow is irrelevant. If anything it makes things somewhat easier on Snape, it gives Snape the out of doing the Task for Draco in order to "watch over" and "protect from harm."

If Snape is the theoretical "Good Snape" he must know the Task before undertaking the Vow. He should at least have a very good idea of what it is, because under most circumstances it can be a very good bet that it is something Dumbledore and the Order don't want to happen.

I don't see how Snape can complete parts One & Two of the Vow without making certain that the Task is completed by someone.

Posting this idea on Snape & the Vow Thread as well, not sure where it really belongs.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jan 24, 2007 2:34 pm (#34 of 287)

Laura- You misunderstand. I don't think Snape’s twitching has to be limited to fear for himself. Delivering Trelawney to LV would be horrible. Remember poor Bertha?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jan 24, 2007 4:34 pm (#35 of 287)

Tom-

I don't think “watch over and protect as he attempts to fulfill the Dark Lord's wishes' requires Snape to do much of anything. That's why Bella is scornful when Snape first suggests this. If Draco fails, is no longer attempting to fulfill the vow, Snape would be off the hook. I don't think Snape would have agreed to one and two if he had to protect Draco from LV. No way. Talk about twitching! It is step three that's the trouble, and thus why he flinches. No wiggle room in that one.

implies that Snape needs to help Draco complete the Task

But Snape doesn't, and nothing happens to him, so I don't think he has to help at all. He just has to 'watch over' as Draco attempts to do his task.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

TomProffitt - Jan 24, 2007 6:39 pm (#36 of 287)

I don't think Snape would have agreed to one and two if he had to protect Draco from LV. --- T Vrana

From my point of view that is exactly what he did do, though. At least so far as it relates to Draco & the Task.

I think that says a lot about the task right there. It must be something that Snape is willing to see completed.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jan 24, 2007 7:12 pm (#37 of 287)

But, everyone was pretty sure that Draco would fail. That's why Cissy risked disobeying LV's orders to ask for Snape's help. So, with your interpretation of #1 and #2, knowing Draco would likely fail, Snape was already basically agreeing to do it himself, or get in LV's way when Draco failed. Why flinch at #3? And from Cissy viewpoint, why even ask for #3? I can't see why Jo would have a #3 if #1 and #2 already had it covered.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

mona amon - Jan 25, 2007 4:50 am (#38 of 287)

T Vrana, delivering Trelawny to LV may be horrible, but as a double agent Snape must often have been in such sticky situations, so would not have flinched.

And anyway it does not fit in with Narcissa's" it is too dangerous" and how can he when the dark lord himself-?" etc.

I do not think he'd be playing this game without knowing what the task was. Why would he pretend? He does not seem to be pumping Narcissa for information, and she certainly doesn't give him any.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jan 25, 2007 4:54 am (#39 of 287)

how can he when the dark lord himself-?

Actually, this question by Cissy argues for the task to be something other than killing DD. Slughorn told Harry that LV has never sought a fight with DD. I would include sending DEs after DD or trying to kill him, as seeking a fight. So, whatever it is, it is something the Dark Lord has tried. It appears killing DD is not something he has tried.

On Trelawney and sticky situations, maybe, but delivering a person to be tortured and killed is in a different league, for me at least.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

mona amon - Jan 25, 2007 5:00 am (#40 of 287)

But he keeps hurling AKs at DD in the MoM.
Surely that counts.

edit-did not see the last part of your post,T vrana.

On Trelawney and sticky situtations, maybe, but delivering a person to be tortured and killed is in a different league, for me at least.

I'm not saying he was planning to do it. But surely, if you are working for LV, Snape would have been in situations where he'd be asked to get information which would lead to people being killed etc. No doubt he'd have wriggled out of it somehow. Don't know if I'm being clear, trying to beat the editing time limit.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

TomProffitt - Jan 25, 2007 5:07 am (#41 of 287)

So, with your interpretation of #1 and #2, knowing Draco would likely fail, Snape was already basically agreeing to do it himself, or get in LV's way when Draco failed. Why flinch at #3? --- T Vrana

The only thing that part three adds is for Snape to do the Task if Draco fails, otherwise he was obligated to ensure that Draco completed the task. I don't believe the "twitch" is significant.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jan 25, 2007 6:19 am (#42 of 287)

mona- Cissy says it is something that even LV has never succeeded at. The only two who know he could not kill DD at the MoM, are LV and Bella. LV surely is not going to tell anyone he could not kill DD, and Bella is so fiercely loyal, I doubt she can even admit to herself that LV could not kill DD. I am sure she rationalized the whole thing and credits the arrival of the Aurors for saving DD from LV. Even if she DOES realize LV couldn't kill DD, I don't think she would tell Cissy.

On Trelawney, #3 would have required he do it, if that was the task, thus the flinch. He knew he could not wiggle out of #3.

Tom- I just don't see how watch over and protect during the task requires he ensure Draco's success. If that were the case #3 is not needed. I think the flinch is significant, but that's just my opinion.

EDIT- If Snape was required by the Vow to ensure Draco's success, Snape should be dead, if that's how the Vow works. Draco did not succeed.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

TomProffitt - Jan 25, 2007 6:49 am (#43 of 287)

I just don't see how watch over and protect during the task requires he ensure Draco's success. --- T Vrana

He's not doing a very good job of "protecting" if he allows Draco to fail, and definitely not if intentionally prevents Draco's success. He's committed to the success of the Task prior to the third part, because actively seeking Draco's failure is most certainly not "watching over and protecting."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jan 25, 2007 7:18 am (#44 of 287)

Tom- I agree that actively seeking Draco's failure may be out, but actively ensuring his success is not required in "watch over and protect", or Snape would be dead. Draco failed. Snape can watch him fail with absolutely no consequences. The “protect” even has the out of 'to the best of your ability'. That's why #3 was necessary.

EDIT- I should say Draco failed, if killing DD was Draco's original task.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

TomProffitt - Jan 25, 2007 7:51 am (#45 of 287)

T Vrana, I think the third part makes Snape's ability to fulfill the Vow easier, not harder. He no longer has to insure Draco does the Task, but only see it through to completion. Furthermore, in spirit if nothing else, telling Dumbledore about the Vow and the Task is working against both, unless it is something Dumbledore is willing to let take place.

And we should always remember that no matter how distasteful the idea would be to Snape, he always had the option of telling Dumbledore that his cover had been blown and he could no longer be a spy.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jan 25, 2007 7:59 am (#46 of 287)

Why would Cissy add part three? If, as you say, it lets Snape off the hook as far as insuring Draco succeeds, then she has put her child in more danger by adding #3. Even though the task is done (again if, DD, original vow etc.) Draco failed. So, Cissy adding part three helped Snape and LV, but put Draco in greater danger than leaving it at #1 and #2 would have. Now LV can kill Draco for failing. Doesn't add up for me.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

TomProffitt - Jan 25, 2007 9:08 am (#47 of 287)

Why would Cissy add part three? If, as you say, it let's Snape off the hook as far as insuring Draco succeeds ... --- T Vrana

It lets Draco off of the hook, too. Before the third part the only way to success is for Draco to do the deed. With the third part added, Draco can now get off of the hook by having Snape do it for him. They are both aided by the third part.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jan 25, 2007 9:16 am (#48 of 287)

Not really. Neither Snape nor Malfoy had LV's permission for this. LV assigned Draco this task to punish the Malfoys. The best scenario for him, by your interpretation, was to keep it at #1 and #2, because Snape would have been required to make sure Draco succeeded, then LV has no reason to kill or punish him. But now, Snape was let off the hook, as you say, and didn't have to make sure Draco succeeded. Now Snape has done the deed and Draco failed, with witnesses. LV can still punish Draco for failing.

Plus, it is will you do part #1, part #2 AND part #3, not OR part #3. If Part #1 and #2 required Snape to help Draco succeed, then Snape should be dead.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jan 25, 2007 1:35 pm (#49 of 287)

rambko- From a ways back

The only problem I have with the above theory and yours is that it doesn't ring true for me that Narcissa would be that hysterical about getting Death Eaters in the castle

But it was dangerous. Gibbon was AK'd (apparently by his own man, but he's still dead) and 'brutal face' was captured. Gibbon died without DD even being in or around the castle. So, getting DE's into the castle was a much bigger deal, I think, tham we are giving it credit for.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

mona amon - Jan 25, 2007 7:48 pm (#50 of 287)

T Vrana, regarding Trelawney, basically we are disagreeing about what would cause Snape to flinch and what wouldn't, so there's no way we are going to convince each other!

how can he when the dark lord himself-?

It does not matter whether Bella told Cissy about the DD-LV confrontation. These things get around. Several aurors saw both DD and Voldemort in the MoM, and could put two and two together.

But leaving aside the MoM battle, it was common knowledge in the WW that DD was the only one LV ever feared.(Slughorn's remark, which you quoted, would fit in here.)If LV wanted him dead, but has not succeeded in achieving this, I think it fits in with Cissy's remark. She wouldn't be thinking it out in the logical way that we are.

Lady Arabella Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:27 pm

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jan 26, 2007 6:32 am (#51 of 287)

If LV wanted him dead, but has not succeeded in achieving this, I think it fits in with Cissy's remark

But that's just it, from Sluggy's remark we know he has not tried to achieve this. When Sluggy says LV has never sought a fight with LV, I have to think that he has never gone after him personally, and has not sent DEs, because if a mob boss, for instance, sent his goons to kill me, I would consider that seeking a fight with me. And, at the time Sluggy said this, he was on the run and trying to decide whether to go to Hogwarts. I can't believe that he was only thinking about LV, but also his DEs.

As for the MoM, Cissy seems to be thinking long term as she says no one has ever succeeded, as though it is something that has been actively tried. While the Aurors arrived to see LV leaving, they did not see a battle and have no way of knowing how long LV was there. The few newspaper reports we see, do not mention a battle, but a raid and the sighting of LV. I don't think it is a lock that Cissy knows there was a battle.

If DD was right, LV needs to do a few things before he goes for Harry again.

1) Fix wand problem (Ollivander is missing)

2) Hear the prophecy (Trelawney only person who knows other than DD and Harry)

3)Get whatever he was after when he asked DD for a job (why mention it otherwise?)

4) Kill DD.

On #3, why would Fortescue, the ice cream vendor from Diagon Alley, disappear? Well, one of the portraits of past headmasters in DD"s office was named Fortescue. Is it possible that Fortescue the ice cream guy, is a descendent of Fortescue the headmaster, and LV wants something from Hogwarts that he thinks Fortescue may know about?

On #4. I still doubt Malfoy had the courage and confidence he exhibited on the train, to kill DD. LV may have told Draco he wanted :

1) DD dead, so find a way to let my DEs in

2) The Prophecy

3) Or he may want something else, but it requires a group to retrieve, and he does not tell Draco

Six weeks into trying to fix the cabinet, several things could have occurred:

1) Draco is having a tough time fixing the cabinet, so he tries to kill DD rather than find a way to let the DEs in

2) Draco is still working on the cabinet, but wants revenge for his father's imprisonment (Harry's idea)

3) Then, at Christmas, LV hears about Malfoy's attempts, is angry, and adds killing DD to the task.

I just don't think Jo told us everything. She told us too much, too soon, for this to all be what it appears to be.

EDIT- And LV does want something from Hogwarts, and has tried to get it in the past. It was dangerous just getting DEs in as a huge battle erupted and Gibbon ended up dead. He has tried to get the prophecy and failed. But has he ever tried to kill DD (other than the MoM, which only Harry and Bella saw).

It has been asked on the Importance of James thread (by Haymoni), if DD made James Head Boy because one of the Thrice defied happened during school. Did LV try to get into Hogwarts only to be defied by James and Lily?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jan 26, 2007 9:28 am (#52 of 287)

T Vrana,regarding Trelawney, basically we are disagreeing about what would cause Snape to flinch and what wouldn't, so there's no way we are going to convince each other!

You are probably right. But I would like to add that I am assuming Snape is on the right side, DD's side, and there are any number of things LV might want done that Snape, as one of the good guys, would not be willing to do. Whatever it is LV wanted, it can't be good for the good guys. So while Snape was willing to watch over Draco, who it is assumed will fail, he may not have been willing to do whatever it was, and considered withdrawing from the Vow, but realized he had been backed into a corner and couldn't, thus the flinch.

I don't think it has to be something that causes him fear (especially since he doesn't seem to be very bothered as the end of the year approaches, busy assigning boring detentions and threatening continued detentions the next year), just something that will help LV and hurt the Order.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 26, 2007 7:23 pm (#53 of 287)

I've been pondering the cabinet thing - there was a comment made by juliebug (on another thread) on whether Draco wanted to fix the cabinets for his own getaway. I hope she posts it here. It reminded me to post another of my ponderings:

If Draco’s whooping occurred mere hours before DE’s entering the school, how did they know he had fixed the cabinets? Were they all sitting for days and weeks and months in B&B shop waiting for him to pop through and tell them it was fixed? I suppose it's possible Rosmerta was "on call" to inform them from Hogsmeade.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

TomProffitt - Jan 26, 2007 7:35 pm (#54 of 287)

Were they all sitting for days and weeks and months in B&B shop waiting for him to pop through and tell them it was fixed? --- me and my shadow 813

Apparition.

Draco passes through the repaired cabinet, apparates to wherever to say they are ready and Dumbledore has left Hogwarts, messages are sent (by tattoo or some other means), the group selected for the job apparates to B & B and passes through the cabinet to Hogwarts.

Do we have canon that the non-Hogwarts end is still at B & B? The operators of B & B need not be active participants either, just threatened into silence would suffice.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 26, 2007 7:51 pm (#55 of 287)

TomP, Draco didn't appear to be paying attention, let alone accomplishing, apparition during their lessons in chapter 18. I cannot recall if Draco was part of the testing along with Ron and Hermione, but I will guess he isn't up to apparating. I'd be more inclined to stretch my imagination that Rosmerta was messenger than Draco was apparating about England.

The Lex: "Apparition becomes more difficult as distance increases. Only highly trained wizards would try intercontinental Apparition (QA9).

Edit: just to cover my butt, I'm not implying Scotland to England is intercontinental...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

TomProffitt - Jan 27, 2007 4:49 am (#56 of 287)

me and my shadow 813, I merely meant to point out that Draco used the cabinet to get to London and all the needed death eaters apparate in to there. There is no need for them all to be waiting around in one place.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

juliebug - Jan 27, 2007 7:54 am (#57 of 287)

Here is the post I put under poll discussions. I'm glad that you found it useful, Me and My Shadow. I have some more thoughts I would like to share later, but for now, my 2 year old grows restless.

I had a thought about Draco's task. Some argue that because he was working on the vanishing cabinet from the very beginning of the school year that his task must have been to get DE's into the school. I wonder, what if Draco hadn't originally planned on using the cabinet to bring anyone in, but rather to quickly get himself out and to a safe place once he had completed his task?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

mona amon - Jan 27, 2007 8:30 am (#58 of 287)

T Vrana, I really don't think the overwrought Narcissa was choosing her words so carefully. She starts off with "how can he when the dark lord himself-?"For all we know, she was going to say "when the Dark Lord himself has never even tried?" But there stands Big Sister Bella gasping away, so she quickly changes it to "I only meant...that nobody has yet succeeded..."

Anyway, LV has never tried to kidnap Trelawney, so that will not fit either, the way you are looking at it.

As for Draco's confidence, the way I see it is this: He is given a task by LV, which I feel is to kill DD. He is given a free hand as to the means, and LV even allows him to use the services of his DE's if he wishes.

Now Draco probably realises he will not be able to do it alone, but with DE's to back him up he feels it won't be much of a problem. He is only sixteen after all, as his mother points out. He gets the bright idea of letting the DE's in through the cabinets,and sets off for school, swaggering all the way.

After a while he realises he may not be able to repair the cabinet, that he'd have to kill DD on his own. Then he makes the desperate attempts with the necklace and poisoned mead.

Juliebug, then when do you think Draco changed his plans, and why? Shall wait for the rest of your thoughts.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

juliebug - Jan 27, 2007 9:50 am (#59 of 287)

The decision to bring along Death Eaters seems, to me, like it was a last minute sort of thing. The scene that plays out at the tower is much like all the classic movie scenes where the bad guys reveal their evil plans to the hero, to show off their wicked genius. They laugh at what a weak, old fool Dumbledore is. They flaunt their plans to harm the Hogwarts students.

Draco's statements lead me to believe that he invited certain Death Eaters to come through the cabinet. When Dumbledore asked Draco why he invited Fenrir, Draco replied, "I didn't, I didn't know he was going to come-" He seemed almost apologetic. Fenrir's comment made it sound as though he just happened to hear about the passage into Hogwarts and jumped at the opportunity to get in on the action. I think that if getting Death Eaters into the castle were Draco's task, he would not have had any say in who came at all. His response to Dumbledore's question would probably have been different as well. The way Draco answered the question, it seemed as though he wanted everyone there, except Fenrir. Like it was his plan to have them backing him up. Dumbledore seemed to be phrasing his questions very carefully, so much so that it seemed like he didn't really need to ask the questions at all.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 27, 2007 10:25 am (#60 of 287)

I merely meant to point out that Draco used the cabinet to get to London and all the needed death eaters apparate in to there. There is no need for them all to be waiting around in one place. – TomProffitt

Tom, I got what you were saying. Still wondering how they knew when Draco had accomplished fixing the cabinet. He'd been trying for almost a year, relied only on Rosmerta as communication, and Draco and DD confirm on Tower the other cabinet is in B&B (not with Vold or DE location). So, once he pops out in Knockturn Alley, then what?

I could believe the DE's were camped out in Knockturn Alley. The streets and shops were deserted, according to the Trio when they followed Draco to B&B. They could have taken over the Alley by now.

When Dumbledore asked Draco why he invited Fenrir, Draco replied, "I didn't, I didn't know he was going to come-" He seemed almost apologetic. Fenrir's comment made it sound as though he just happened to hear about the passage into Hogwarts and jumped at the opportunity to get in on the action. I think that if getting Death Eaters into the castle were Draco's task, he would not have had any say in who came at all. – juliebug

I agree with the above. It supports the idea that Vold used Draco's hard work on devising a plan to enter/exit Hogwarts for Vold's own plan. I believe Draco wanted certain DE's as "backup" as he tells DD, but obviously not Fenrir.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jan 27, 2007 5:42 pm (#61 of 287)

Mona amon-Anyway, LV has never tried to kidnap Trelawney, so that will not fit either, the way you are looking at it.

But he did try to get the prophecy, and he would be taking Trelawney to get the prophecy.

But I actually am more inclined to think he was after the same thing he was after when he asked for the teaching position.

Juliebug- Fenrir's comment made it sound as though he just happened to hear about the passage into Hogwarts and jumped at the opportunity to get in on the action.

Perhaps, but I thought it possible that LV sent him along to make sure Draco did the job, and if not....

I think the DE's were planned all along, just not Fenrir.

On Draco using the cabinets to escape. Possible, but he tells DD he is the only one who "realized there could be a way into Hogwarts". He did not say out of Hogwarts, so I assume he planned to bring DEs in all along as he was checking out the cabinet before the start of term.

M & M shadow- I always assumed Draco used the enchanted coins to alert the DEs when he was ready for them. Then they apparated to B & B's. Also, Draco tells DD that the DEs "were able to pass from Borgin & Burkes into the school".

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 27, 2007 9:05 pm (#62 of 287)

But I actually am more inclined to think he was after the same thing he was after when he asked for the teaching position. - T Vrana

Have you heard the rumour about a Badge being drawn as a DH illustration? I will try to locate post by Die Z. about it. It's nothing official but we speculated Riddle's Special Service shield -- a clue which is still dangling from CoS -- could have been what Vold was trying to get from the school when he interviewed or was he putting it back? It could be Vold found it pleasing to have a horcrux hidden within the school, as we don't know how often people go into the Trophy Case (other than an occasional polishing by squib Filch).

I always assumed Draco used the enchanted coins to alert the DEs when he was ready for them. Then they apparated to B & B's. Also, Draco tells DD that the DEs "were able to pass from Borgin & Burkes into the school".

Yes, I think it was done via Rosmerta but still wondering how and more importantly when she was Imperio'd. Is Draco capable of that spell? Could that have been Draco in Three Broomsticks polyjuiced as Zabini "lolling"? (love that word)

Edit: just realised TVrana, you might be referring to the DE's having coins as well. Hadn't thought of that. Makes sense. When did Draco have a chance to get these things done? I suppose at Christmas break he could've seen DE's.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jan 28, 2007 10:14 am (#63 of 287)

m & M shadow- I don't think Malfoy went to Hogsmeade, did he? Wasn't he serving detention with someone?

The shield...hmmmm...why couldn't Snape just grab it and carry it out? Why no protections if it is a horcrux? Interesting, but needs some thought.

Could Draco have done it all around the same time he approached Borgin?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Luna Logic - Jan 28, 2007 12:08 pm (#64 of 287)
Edited by Jan 28, 2007 12:10 pm

Here is the link to the post : Die Zimtzicke, "Horcruxes" #147

I am reading this thread from the start, and yes the idea of the task consisting in getting out a small object would be getting well with the prefect's badge. Well also because in my idea the horcruxes are all reminding Voldemort of his construction of power and influence (the orphanage, then the school, then B and B... then...) But when he see that his horcruxes are been sought, he tries to retrieve them secure.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madam Pince - Jan 28, 2007 12:53 pm (#65 of 287)

Why would either apparition or coins be needed? I was under the impression that the DEs communicated by means of the tattoo. At first I thought only Voldemort could "initiate" communication via this method, then when Hermione said she'd modelled the DA's coins after the DE's tattoos, then I just assumed that any DE could signal any of the other DEs by using the tattoos. Of course, they would've had to set up ahead of time what the "signal" on the tattoo would be for "I've finally succeeded -- everybody rally 'round -- Love, Draco"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 28, 2007 5:31 pm (#66 of 287)

I don't think Malfoy went to Hogsmeade, did he? Wasn't he serving detention with someone? - T Vrana

Yes but there's been speculation that Zabini and Draco polyjuiced and switched places. Maybe Draco bribed him - can't imagine Zabini would want to do detention for Draco.

The shield...hmmmm...why couldn't Snape just grab it and carry it out? Why no protections if it is a horcrux? Interesting, but needs some thought.

Well help us think! (wink) I have no idea... like Luna Logic said, so far it fits with speculation that Filch was scanning for objects being smuggled out of the school. It also fits because DD used the word *trophy* when talking about horcruxes with Harry. This is literally a trophy, awarded specifically to Riddle, and it's an award for blaming Hagrid for opening the Chamber. It's a phenomenal horcrux object. Yet, as you pointed out, T Vrana, still some holes.

Why would either apparition or coins be needed? I was under the impression that the DEs communicated by means of the tattoo. - Madam Pince

Good catch, Madam P. Thanks.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Die Zimtzicke - Jan 28, 2007 6:39 pm (#67 of 287)

My ears were burning...

Actually, if it were the shield that were a horcrux, which was pretty much out in that case in plain sight, I don't see why anyone sympathetic to Voldemort couldn't have grabbed it over the last couple of years. It's not like it's something that would have immediately been missed. Lucius had been in an out of the school, and Barty Crouch, Junior was there almost a whole year. Voldemort wouldn't have had to tell them why he wanted it. He could have just ordered them to get it as a test of loyalty. That's why I like better the idea of it being the badge, that was left someplace where it is possibly misplaced, or better hidden; at any rate harder to find.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jan 28, 2007 7:33 pm (#68 of 287)

DIE- I agree. Whatever LV wanted out of Hogwarts, it seemed to be difficult to get (bunch of DEs with him in Hogsmeade), and yet students were being probed leaving the school. So, size does not seem to be the difficult part. So what is the difficulty? I like the idea of the badge. The shield for special services is nice, an award, but the badge represented power. Of the two, I think LV would treasure the power more than the award.

So where is the prefect's badge, and why did Draco need to let all those DEs in? Original task...breach Hogwarts and get DEs in. Perhaps....

If Fortescue was kidnapped and was related to Fortescue the headmaster...

Fortescue the ice cream guy knew a great deal about something, anyone recall? It was history of...something. Could Fortescue have a portrait of his Great great... Grandfather the headmaster, which gave him first hand knowledge of this history? Is whatever LV wants tied to Hogwarts of long ago, and is this why Fortescue is missing? I think it is the where that may be the difficult part...ancient part of Hogwarts, but not the chamber.

Have to look up Fortescue..

EDIT- Found it. Fortescue knew a great deal about Medieval witch burnings...hmmmmm...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 28, 2007 7:56 pm (#69 of 287)

Would Filch's scanning have picked up the badge? We don't know if the Horcrux gives off any kind of signal. And if it had the kinda of enchantments that the ring had. I kinda think someone would have gotten stung before. Like maybe Ron when he was having to polish everything in the cabinet. Oops...the award would have been in the cabinet, not the badge. Since the students take there uniforms home I believe that Voldemort would have had the badge and not had to have it recovered from Hogwarts.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Luna Logic - Jan 29, 2007 1:14 am (#70 of 287)

hello everybody ! trying to express myself in another language is difficult (but I enjoy it), but to me, the major problem is, expressing myself in this topic and trying to NOT be outside the topic... with the subject of badge and shield . So I hesitate to answer about the last very interesting idea above...

May be we could discuss in Horcruxe thread again about the nature of a small horcruxe, linked to Tom Riddle's school years, and where it first could have been hidden by him ?

And here, if the small Horcruxe was in the school, we could discuss about : was it the task of Draco Malfoy to help getting out something for V ?

But what to do with the question : Why Voldemort, now, would be trying to get out of Hogwarts his Horcruxe? It is perhaps relevant to this topic, no ?

Luna Lost in Thread's Logic

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

mona amon - Jan 29, 2007 4:05 am (#71 of 287)

Er...what is this badge everyone's talking about? Must have missed something big.

Luna, wouldn't Tom Riddle's diary be a horcrux linked to his school years?

Why Voldemort, now, would be trying to get out of Hogwarts his Horcruxe?

Exactly. DD was keeping it a secret. How would LV know that his horcruxes were under threat?

About the task, here's something that puzzles me. The task, whatever it was, was obviously something of vital importance to LV. Yet he is willing to let Draco bungle along for a whole year, almost. Why couldn't he have got Snape to step in earlier?

Could he have been waiting for Harry to turn seventeen? T Vrana,in her post#51 has a list of things LV will want to do before he goes after Harry-fix the brother wand problem, hear the prophecy, kill DD. Maybe he is also waiting for Harry to turn seventeen(for the Privet Drive protection to wear out),and so he's willing to while away a whole year.

Any thoughts about this?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Luna Logic - Jan 29, 2007 4:51 am (#72 of 287)
Edited by Jan 29, 2007 4:55 am

mona amon : I also am puzzled by the patience of Voldemort

- first, in HP4 a whole school's year and terrible complications, just to make Harry touch a portkey...

- second, in HP6, I had the same impression with Malfoy's task.

Honestly I was (before meeting this forum !) under the impression it was just for the "suspense" of the books...

Now, this thread make me wonder... is there more to the tasks than we see at first sight ?

(if somebody could tell me a "good thread" resuming the theory about HP4, the whole year and the portkey... I will run to it !)

others questions : "How would LV know that his horcruxes were under threat? It seems he knows, for the diary, and think the Malfoy family is responsible for its loss. Now for the ring ??

last question : "wouldn't Tom Riddle's diary be a horcrux linked to his school years?" Yes, but in my mind it is linked with the discovery of his Salazar linage (?), and the Chamber of Secrets. But the school was important for him in others ways (discussion continues in the Horcruxes thread )

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Mrs Brisbee - Jan 29, 2007 5:57 am (#73 of 287)

Maybe Voldemort isn't trying to get a Horcrux out of Hogwarts, but something he can use to make a final Horcrux. I don't see why he would have abandoned his plan to murder Harry and use that death for the final Horcrux. We know he has ordered that the DEs leave Harry to him. My guess is Voldemort is still looking for the perfect artifact to use for that final Horcrux.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jan 29, 2007 6:50 am (#74 of 287)

Mickey-Since the students take their uniforms home I believe that Voldemort would have had the badge and not had to have it recovered from Hogwarts.

Unless he left it there intentionally, for safe keeping. It is a very big castle, and not even DD knows all its secrets.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 29, 2007 6:56 am (#75 of 287)

That would suggest that Tom was making Horcruxes while at school and while we know that Moaning Myrtle was a victim, I wonder if the diary and his badge would have both been made while at school.

Mickey

Lady Arabella Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:38 pm

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Thom Matheson - Jan 29, 2007 7:03 am (#76 of 287)

Mona we are discussing Voldemort's head boy/prefect badges, or his service to the school plaque. Head badge representing power seems to make sense for someone that values power as much as he does.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

mona amon - Jan 29, 2007 7:56 am (#77 of 287)

Thanks, Thom!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Die Zimtzicke - Jan 29, 2007 10:53 am (#78 of 287)

There is something that looks like a badge or shield on some of the banners the bookshops are using to advertise preorders for Deathly Hallows. This all started when someone on some board (don't know who was first now!) wondered if that's a Horcrux .

If it's the shield, I was just saying that Voldemort could have gotten someone to get it out of Hogwarts long ago. A missing badge might be harder to find than a shield that sits in a case, where it is obvious, but not something that people seem to pay a lot of attention to. I thought Tom could have gotten some underling of his to grab it years ago, or that Lucius or Peter could have stolen the shield when they visited the school at some more recent point, if anyone had any idea of it's value. Certainly the fake Moody could have grabbed it in book four. It depends on when a connection was made between Tom Riddle and Voldemort.

As for taking uniforms home, they certainly seem to take robes and badges home. There are no uniforms mentioned either on the supply list or by the kids until book five, when you get one mention of Draco looking like a slug in a Hogwarts uniform, so I don't know what is even meant by uniforms. But I don't think we've got enough info to prove the badge is at Hogwarts. We only know the shield is.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madame Pomfrey - Feb 6, 2007 7:21 am (#79 of 287)

I can't see why Voldemort would want to remove the shield from the school even if it is a Horcrux , unless he suspects that someone knows about them. If he ,all of sudden, is gathering his Horcrux es then someone has clued him in and Snape is the only one that comes to mind. If Voldemort still thinks that he is the only one who knows about his Horcrux es then I think he would leave them as they are. He doesn't need one on his person in order for them to prevent his death, Right? If he does then it seems to me like he would have died at Godric's Hollow. Am I missing something here?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Feb 6, 2007 7:42 am (#80 of 287)

M POMFREY- I think you are right. Perhaps it is not yet a Horcrux and he wants to make it one with Harry's death, if DD is wrong about Nagini, which he may be. I think the whole point of mentioning that Nagini may be a Horcrux was to introduce the idea that a living thing could be a Horcrux ...(Harry).

Seems like a lot of trouble, though, for one object of questionable value. Then again, maybe the value to him is high. Or maybe it was one of many things he wanted that night.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madame Pomfrey - Feb 6, 2007 12:27 pm (#81 of 287)

I agree about Nagini, T. Please, please, please let Voldemort not make any more Horcrux es, but of course, seeing him make one would answer a lot of our questions.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Luna Logic - Feb 6, 2007 1:57 pm (#82 of 287)

Madame Pomfrey " If he ,all of sudden,is gathering his Horcrux es then someone has clued him in and Snape is the only one that comes to mind."

What a really good idea! Yes but in my mind it would be part of plan made according to Dumbledore...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Mediwitch - Feb 6, 2007 7:47 pm (#83 of 287)

Mrs. Brisbee, I think you are on to something in this post when you discuss the possibility of Malfoy's task being to sneak an object OUT of Hogwarts to be made into a Horcrux : Mrs Brisbee, "+ Malfoy's Task & The Vow" #73, 29 Jan 2007 5:57 am.

Didn't Filch use a Secrecy Sensor to check the students leaving the castle? That would sense any concealment, not just dark magic (such as an item which is already a Horcrux ). I do not believe that Voldemort made Nagini into a Horcrux as Dumbledore suspected, because there was no evidence of such during the Priori Incantatum in GoF either before or after Frank Bryce's "echo" appeared.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Luna Logic - Feb 7, 2007 1:17 am (#84 of 287)

Thanks Mediwitch, I re-read Mrs Brisbee’s post "Voldemort is still looking for the perfect artefact to use for that final Horcrux .". I agree with you both that Voldemort has still a last Horcrux to make. And yes it could make sense for him to make it with something from Hogwarts. Malfoy's task would have been trying to get out something from the RoR (first, finding it…)or getting out Tom' shield from the Trophies room (easier). The Secrecy Sensor used to check the students leaving the castle has made that impossible. “Filch was triple-checking everybody with his Secrecy Sensor... » (HPB chap 12 p. 228 Bloomsbury)

Do you think that the vanishing cabinet could be used for that getting out?

But I persist to like Madame Pomfrey's idea too. Perhaps they are both possible. The Horcrux es' quest might be very different then...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

mona amon - Feb 7, 2007 2:50 am (#85 of 287)

I do not believe that Voldemort made Nagini into a Horcrux as Dumbledore suspected, because there was no evidence of such during the Priori Incantatum in GoF either before or after Frank Bryce's "echo" appeared-Mediwitch

I think only trained wizards will be able to recognise all the spells that come out of the wand. Harry only notices the ones that have a corporeal form - Wormtail's hand and the forms of the murder victims.

I mean, if LV could hold a wand, he must have been using it for other things besides murder, a little crucio on Wormtail for instance, but Harry does not see anything except the hand and the murdered people.

So I think he could have made Nagini into a Horcrux , without Harry noticing any evidence of the spell.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madam Pince - Feb 7, 2007 5:20 am (#86 of 287)

Doesn't Harry hear screams during the Priori Incantatum? I thought that was supposed to represent the "crucios." But you're right -- I can't think how some other spells would be represented, such as making a Horcrux .

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Mrs Brisbee - Feb 7, 2007 5:37 am (#87 of 287)

Didn't Filch use a Secrecy Sensor to check the students leaving the castle? That would sense any concealment, not just dark magic (such as an item which is already a Horcrux ).—Mediwitch

Good point about the secrecy detector. Wasn't it like the one the MoM desk guy used in OotP? I'll have to dig out my copy of OotP and check.

I think Voldemort had the ulterior motive of getting the Death Eaters into the school so they could get something specific out (an object to be made into a Horcrux ), but Malfoy wouldn't be told how important that was or even know about it. He's just a 16 year old peon.

I doubt Nagini was a Horcrux at the graveyard scene in GoF. Since Voldemort died trying to murder Harry to make his last Horcrux , I think it makes sense that he was reborn intending to use Harry's murder for his last Horcrux . I think Nagini was in the graveyard because he was going to make her into that Horcrux after killing Harry, but that plan was foiled.

I have some thoughts and questions about Nagini the Horcrux , which I will take over to the Horcrux thread.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

mona amon - Feb 7, 2007 9:22 am (#88 of 287)

Madam Pince, you are right-those screams would have been the crucios. I didn't realise that.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Mediwitch - Feb 7, 2007 2:22 pm (#89 of 287)

Since we don't know how a Horcrux is really made except that there is a spell, I think it's hard to guess what form it might take in Priori Incantatum, but I think it would take some form. Harry might not have recognized it as what it was, had one actually appeared, and neither would we. I do think some evidence would have been present that we would now (since we know of the existance of Horcruxes) would be able to say "Aha! THAT's what such-and-such was during the Priori Incantatum- Voldemort's Horcrux !"

No evidence in Priori Incantatum, no Horcrux from Frank Bryce's death in my opinion. So to me, that support's Mrs. Brisbee's theory about Malfoy's task.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Feb 13, 2007 4:20 pm (#90 of 287)

Just a thought, but is it possible Bellatrix took Trelawney through the Cabinet before Ron &c ompany staked out the Room of Requirement?

Since we don't know how a Horcrux is really made except that there is a spell, I think it's hard to guess what form it might take in Priori Incantatum, but I think it would take some form. – Mediwitch

I noticed there was a successful *Imperio* performed on Harry just after the *Crucio's* on Harry. Both are Unforgivables yet the Imperio did not appear in Priori Incantatem. (I'll copy this to Horcruxes thread.)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madame Pomfrey - Feb 14, 2007 6:00 am (#91 of 287)

That is possible, Me & My. I am one who is about 90% sure that Trelawney is in Voldemort’s clutches. His first priority in OoP was to hear the remainder of the Prophecy and I don't think that has changed. Someone mentioned that kidnapping her would be a mistake on his part because she doesn't remember the Prophecy. I disagree. I think he would break into her mind as he did Bertha's. I am afraid she will probably die in the process.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Luna Logic - Feb 14, 2007 6:21 am (#92 of 287)

Also, in favor to(?) this theory, the fact that the whereabouts of all the DE were not very clear, on the night of the attack of Hogwarts (Do we know something about Bella's presence in Hogwarts? I must confess I don't remember)
Now a very basic question: could two persons go together in that vanishing cabinet?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Feb 14, 2007 6:38 am (#93 of 287)

Also, in favor to(?) this theory, the fact that the whereabouts of all the DE were not very clear, on the night of the attack of Hogwarts (Do we know something about Bella's presence in Hogwarts? I must confess I don't remember)

It's interesting that the DEs we see involved in the attack aren't the best of the DEs. Where was Bella? Why, since she knew about Draco's task, wasn't she there helping out?

Or maybe Bella was leading a completely different group on a different task in the castle, while the group we see are merely a diversion tactic.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Soul Search - Feb 14, 2007 7:09 am (#94 of 287)

Good thought, wynnleaf.

I think we have concluded that there was more going on that night than setting the dark mark to lure Dumbledore to the tower.

Of course, Voldemort's "best" death eaters were in Azkaban. Bellatrix's absence is, I think, notable. She also failed at the Ministry in OotP, so had to secure the Dark Lord's favor again. I would bet all the galleons I own that Bellatrix kidnapped Trelawney.

What about Narcissa? We can't be sure just how much a death eater she is, but Voldemort would have enjoyed sending her on the mission where her son was likely to be killed. What was Narcissa's task?

I think the big blond wizard that kept missing with his curses was Avery and he is one of Dumbledore's spies. He also gave Voldemort the deceptive information about the prophecies that caused Voldemort to waste a lot of time.

There were new death eaters on the tower. Maybe those we have met before were on more important tasks within Hogwarts. Who else is missing?

The entrance to Dumbledore's tower is on the same floor (now) as the RoR. Has the sword been mentioned since that night?

Tom Riddle's award is also a possible death eater goal. No reason for it to be mentioned, so we can't tell about it.

Anything else?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Feb 14, 2007 7:44 am (#95 of 287)

I think the big blond wizard that kept missing with his curses was Avery and he is one of Dumbledore's spies. He also gave Voldemort the deceptive information about the prophecies that caused Voldemort to waste a lot of time. (Soul Search)

I've wondered about that, too. But if the big blond was on the Order's side, wouldn't he have known about another reason for the attack -- whether to kidnap Trelawney or get some object? And then he'd have alerted DD prior to the attack, right?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Feb 14, 2007 8:29 am (#96 of 287)

Not if he didn't know about the other missions. LV would have only told individual DEs what they needed to know for their own mission. That way it would be harder for DD and the Order to discover all LV's plans.

I agree Big Blond's behaviour was odd. Almost as though he were just trying to keep the Order ducking and mostly out of harm’s way. The only exception was Bill and Fenrir, and Fenrir was not expected.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

MickeyCee3948 - Feb 14, 2007 8:44 am (#97 of 287)

I don't believe it matters now whether Voldemort hears the entire prophecy or not. It can't be changed and HE is the one who put the wheels in motion.

Going after Trelawney may and I state MAY have been an objective of the DE's upon entering the castle but it would have been a mistake. I doubt even Voldemort could make it through the haze in Trelawney's brain.

I also believe that the extra protection of order members in the castle prevented the DE's from achieving whatever goal besides the death of DD they intended to perform.

As to the big blond DE, I doubt if it was Avery. The other members of the order would have recognized him.

Mickey

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Feb 14, 2007 8:47 am (#98 of 287)

I doubt even Voldemort could make it through the haze in Trelawney's brain. (Mickey)

Yeah, it's hard to imagine him getting anything, isn't it? And I have to admit, I'm not quite sure what good it would do LV to hear the last part of the prophecy. I can see why he'd want to, but having once heard it, so what? On the other hand, DD seemed to think it was pretty important to keep it from LV, so maybe if LV does get the prophecy, he'll be able to make some use of it.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

haymoni - Feb 14, 2007 9:26 am (#99 of 287)

I'm holding out for the big blond to be Otto Bagman, Ludo's brother.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madame Pomfrey - Feb 15, 2007 9:18 pm (#100 of 287)

I agree with the rest of you who believe Big Blond is a Dumbledore spy .If Avery is he and a double agent, the Order wouldn't acknowledge him would they? It would blow his cover.

Lady Arabella Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:50 pm

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Feb 16, 2007 11:50 am (#101 of 287)

I like the Big Blond DE being Avery. He wasn't treated very nicely at the graveyard and might be ready for a change. I do agree that that DE is a fake.

As far as DH is concerned, since Vold isn't aware that Trelawney goes into trance and has no memory of the prophecies, I'm quite convinced he is still obsessed with hearing it in its entirety.

Regarding how many people can fit into the Cabinet, Bella would simply Stun her and push her through to the waiting arms of another DE at Knockturn Alley. The woman never seems to carry a wand...?

Regarding Narcissa, is she a DE? I thought not for some reason.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madam Pince - Feb 16, 2007 12:53 pm (#102 of 287)

Regarding how many people can fit into the Cabinet, Bella would simply Stun her and push her through to the waiting arms of another DE at Knockturn Alley.

Good point, me and my shadow. JKR set the precedent for this by having Fred and George just shove Montague into the Cabinet and voila! He appeared somewhere else...

I didn't think Narcissa is a DE, either. Odd that she isn't, but I don't think she is.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

mona amon - Feb 16, 2007 6:01 pm (#103 of 287)

The woman never seems to carry a wand...?

LOL! Maybe she's a squib? She could easily have repaired that teacup that Neville broke...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

journeymom - Feb 17, 2007 12:31 pm (#104 of 287)

But could she still be a seer if she was a squib? She's made two real prophecies, and honestly, I think she's made a couple more that were glossed over as jokes.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Feb 18, 2007 3:08 pm (#105 of 287)

I agree, journeymom.

I also noticed something that could support Trelawney's abduction. In OoP Dumbledore's Army chapter, when the DA first go to the Room of Requirement, it says there is a "man-size vase" nearby. Then in HBP Seer Overheard chapter, Trelawney tosses her sherry bottles into a large "blue and white vase" in a nearby niche. I'm wondering if Bella or another DE hid in the vase when Draco threw the Peruvian Powder (as it is "man-size") and when Harry left Trelawney standing in the corridor alone, the DE lept from the vase and took her into the RoR. Seems odd JKR would use the term "man size" if not for a person to be inside of it at some future point. Must ponder...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Feb 18, 2007 3:33 pm (#106 of 287)

Is it the same vase Harry hid behind in HBP, when he was avoiding Trelawney?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Soul Search - Feb 18, 2007 4:51 pm (#107 of 287)

me and my shadow 813, good pickup.

An alternative is someone stuffed Trelawney in the vase and used it to get her to the RoR and through the cabinet, sherry bottles and all.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Feb 20, 2007 4:05 pm (#108 of 287)

T Vrana, I don't know about Harry hiding in HBP off the top of my head...

Soul Search, that would be funny: Bellatrix hoisting the huge vase over her shoulder and tossing it into the Cabinet. I like it. Of course, the RoR would need to have been kept open, or Draco would have needed to be close at hand in order to reopen it. I don't feel Bella would be able to open it for some reason...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Feb 20, 2007 7:35 pm (#109 of 287)

m & m shadow-

Just found it...it was a statue, not a vase that Harry hid behind on his way to DD's office for his first lesson. Oh well.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

virginiaelizabeth - Feb 20, 2007 8:41 pm (#110 of 287)

As far as DH is concerned, since Vold isn't aware that Trelawney goes into trance and has no memory of the prophecies, .

You know how you can't remember any part of your life before you turned 3 or 4 years old? I think this works the same way. Even though you can't remember it, that doesn't mean it isn't there. The prophecy is there, but Trelawney just doesn't know its there. Voldemort will have to do some serious legilimency to find it, but it's there.

The vase is a good idea. It is interesting that she described it as "Man-sized" when she could of just said big, or large. But she made it more specific. Man-sized meaning a person could fit in it. Could be a subtle way of hinting that someone may hide in it later on. Or maybe we just pay too close attention to details!

I personally think that Malfoy's original task was to get Trelawney out of Hogwarts. He tried to fix that vanishing cabinet right from the start, so he needed a way to get something in and out of Hogwarts. If his task was to kill DD, then why would he need that pathway? Just doesn't make sense. LV was obsessed with hearing the contents of the prophecy, and just like that, he decides to kill DD? Yes that's a great thing, but like I said, he was obsessed with the prophecy, so I think his main goal, when he gave Draco the task was to get that prophecy, and the only way left to get it that was at all plausible, was to capture the seer who made it. Then later in the year he told Draco to kill DD. Kill 2 birds with one stone type of deal.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Feb 21, 2007 11:18 am (#111 of 287)

virginiaelizabeth, I agree with the above. I'm not sure whether Vold will acquire it with Legilimency, as it seems a far stretch to read thoughts that are subconscious, perhaps a forced Pensieve memory if it's possible to extract a memory that isn't *remembered*. But that he'll try is a probability.

I was thinking about the vase speculation, and why Draco wouldn't just grab Trelawney when she heard him whooping. But it is stated earlier on that the Cabinet was located around a turn. When Harry went into RoR to hide the Potions book it described-- "He turned right past an enormous stuffed troll, ran a short way, took a left at the broken Vanishing Cabinet..." So it's possible Draco either a) couldn't see from where he stood it was Trelawney that entered the RoR and/or b) he was too cowardly, as usual, to do it without backup.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Feb 21, 2007 12:06 pm (#112 of 287)

Regarding my previous post about Pensieve memories, I believe DD extracted a memory from Morfin that was buried beneath a Memory Charm and thus not *remembered*, so it might be a similar situation with extracting Trelawney's prophecies...?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Feb 21, 2007 12:49 pm (#113 of 287)

I don't think he got a memory from Morphin, he got one from the MoM official. Morphin confessed to doing it. I think.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

MickeyCee3948 - Feb 21, 2007 5:52 pm (#114 of 287)

Diving into Trelawney's brain would be like a trip to the Outer Limits. She is so loosely packed up there that any delving into what is there would surely be fatal.

I think getting Morfin's memory from beneath a memory charm is one thing. He still remembered it, it was just blocked. Trelawney does NOT even know she made a prophecy. No memory at all.

Mickey

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

virginiaelizabeth - Feb 21, 2007 9:22 pm (#115 of 287)

Diving into Trelawney's brain would be like a trip to the Outer Limits. LOL! It sure would be!

But we don't really have proof that it isn't in her head as well. It came out of her mouth, so I think there's a good chance that it's up in that brain of hers. She has no recollection of it, but that doesn't mean that it's not there.

I still think that Voldemort would be able to find it. But like you said, it will probably kill her.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

geauxtigers - Feb 21, 2007 10:17 pm (#116 of 287)

Hmm, trying to think of this from a different angle because I'm not really sure which side to lean too. So think of it like this:

You have a dream and wake not remembering any of it, but you know you had a dream. Then there are mornings you wake up and you didn't have a dream at all. But there is a chance that you did infact have a dream, you just don't remember even having one in the first place. So let’s see, Vold breaks into your mind, he could find the dream that you knew you had and the one you didn't know you had. It could be like that with Trelawney. She has no idea that she's made any predictions what so ever, but the potential for it to still be in her head are absolutely there. It’s like Ginny said earlier too, there are gray spots in brain where you remember nothing. You can't remember anything from the time I was born until I was about 6, then I can start remembering more than before. It’s all there in your head, you just don't know it. Does that make sense?

Of course this is dealing with complete fiction and it cannot really happen, so Jo could do whatever she wanted with this!

So.. Malfoy's original task. I'm not sure what I think it was. I think it was several things, the first being to fix the vanishing cabinet, so that tells me he needed to get something in or out of Hogwarts. So that in itself could be several things, Trelawney out, Death eaters in to kill Dumbledore, or both. I think they were trying to get Bug Eyes out, but they weren't going to just pass up all these possibly unsuspecting Order members. OOO! I just had a brain wave!! Sorry if this has been mentioned, I've been out of the loop since August. What if Voldemort also wanted to hide a Horcrux in Hogwarts? I think there will be one there, so what if he needed the vanishing cabinet to 'smuggle' the Horcrux in and hide it somewhere. But then why would he not come himself. Okay so that’s a stretch, we can probably scratch that...

Anyway, I think the kill Dumbledore wasn't part of the original task, but added later. I can't seem to make much sense out of all that mess the night Snape killed him. There was some planning there on both sides.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Feb 22, 2007 9:45 am (#117 of 287)

Trelawney, though in a trance, would have heard herself, on some level, saying the prophecy. Her ears and brain were still functioning, so it is there, just not a conscious memory, IMO.

If Voldy wanted to get something in, I can see him not wanting to come himself until DD is gone. I think LV rarely takes any real chances, the MoM being an exception rather than the rule. I think he tends to send others to do the heavy lifting, and he does the sneak middle of the night murders.

Have to say, I joined another Forum recently (not Harry Potter related) and I was amazed at the level of nastiness there. Happy to be here among such nice folks!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

mona amon - Feb 22, 2007 7:14 pm (#118 of 287)

Good point, T Vrana,about LV never putting himself in the line of fire. But it only makes me all the more certain that getting rid of DD would have been his first priority. Once he has achieved this, he can take over Hogwarts, kidnap Trelawney, bring in a Horcrux or take one out, do anything he wants, in short.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madam Pince - Feb 22, 2007 10:08 pm (#119 of 287)

I agree about Trelawney -- the words came out of her mouth, so they must've started out in her brain. Basic synapse-ology... The prophecy's still in there somewhere amongst all the clutter...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

sstabeler - Feb 23, 2007 12:39 pm (#120 of 287)

I think LV going to the ministry was him figuring out that Bella and Harry were arguing over the prophecy, he realises Harry isn't going to give Bella the prophecy, and thinking " if you want a job doing............" and promptly apparating to the ministry, he then decides to try another murder attempt on Harry, after playing around with Harry and finding he has been thwarted yet AGAIN but Dumbledore intervenes. He took a calculated risk, and it backfired. his return was revealed, and he had to run for it. Rescuing Bella in the process. ( maybe Voldemort rescuing Bella was why she assumed she was a favourite?)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Feb 23, 2007 1:21 pm (#121 of 287)

I don't think it was a calculated risk. I think he was in a towering rage (Harry felt it), and reacted to being thwarted by Harry again. He wasn't thinking, he was reacting. IMHO

But it only makes me all the more certain that getting rid of DD would have been his first priority

If this were true, why not attack with a bigger force? I think he wants many things in place before proceeding:

1) Prophecy

2) Wand

3) DD

4) Something else, perhaps, that Jo hasn't revealed yet...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Feb 24, 2007 11:14 am (#122 of 287)

I do believe it it possible that Vold could extract Trelawney's memory. In Morfin's case, Harry asked "And Morfin never realised he hadn't done it?" DD then explained "it took a great deal of skilled Legilimency to coax it out of him" (Sluggish Memory chapter HBP). Severus has said that Vold is highly skilled at Legilimency, and I do believe that the experience/event exists somewhere in Trelawney's mind. It might not happen, but I feel it is possible (and exciting) canon-wise and plot-wise.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Soul Search - Feb 24, 2007 3:24 pm (#123 of 287)

me and my shadow 813,

... but I feel it is possible (and exciting) canon-wise and plot-wise.

You may be right, but I am not sure how much hearing the full prophecy would help Voldemort now. He doesn't know that, of course. In Voldemort's mind, the prophecy probably concludes with his horrible death.

It was important that he hadn't heard the whole prophecy before Godric's Hollow, otherwise he may not have gone after Harry. But now ... so what.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Feb 25, 2007 12:32 pm (#124 of 287)

Soul Search, to me it would be exciting because it would cause yet more doubt in Vold's mind, causing him to slip up in my opinion, and also Trelawney's abduction and interrogation would be exciting (although sad for Trelawney of course). I feel it could be Severus's role in helping to free her which is even more exciting, for a Severus fan.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

mona amon - Feb 26, 2007 4:05 am (#125 of 287)

T Vrana, I've thought of a good argument. Or at least it seems good to me

LV did not seriously expect Draco to succeed at the task. He really wants Snape to do it. Let us assume that the task (the'deed'mentioned by Narcissa in the vow)was something other than killing DD.Draco will most likely fail.Snape will have to do it, and thereby expose his double(triple?) agent status. He can no longer remain at Hogwarts. Then who is to kill DD for LV?

That is why I feel that killing DD would be LV's first priority.All the other things become much easier after that.

why not attack with a bigger force?

LV would know that when dealing with a wizard like DD,it is not the size of the force that matters.It would have to be done as an inside job.Letting in the DE's that night seems to have been solely the idea of Draco,who would have needed their backup to give him the confidence to attempt the deed.

Lady Arabella Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:25 pm

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

sstabeler - Feb 26, 2007 9:01 am (#126 of 287)

I don't know, I personally think the DEs were there to

a) deal with any guard that gets in Draco's way (they did this) and

b) to convince Draco to do the job if he looked like failing

(they failed, thus 'we've got a problem', they had no orders to do it themselves, and Draco wasn't going to do it, so they needed Snape to convince Draco to kill DD, but Snape actually does it himself. They knew they would be in hot water but without Voldemort's direct order, were not going to finish the job themselves.)

I reckon the size of the force was so small to limit losses should the DEs be defeated. I reckon it wasn't just Draco that Voldmeort saw as disposable. I reckon the only DE Voldmeort told to get out alive at all costs was Greyback. Do we even have any Canon that Greyback escaped, as I thought he was knocked unconscious when he was trying to injure Harry. If Greyback is out of the picture, I can see the other werewolves thinking Greyback was weak, and rallying around a new leader, (perhaps Lupin?) as if the werewolves go over to the side of the Order/Ministry, Voldemort loses one hell of a weapon. Isn't Greyback one of Voldmeort's recruiting tools?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Feb 27, 2007 9:38 am (#127 of 287)

Hi, Mona

Well, do we know that Snape would have exposed himself? It really depends on what the task was and if it could be done with DD's knowledge.

Let's say, for instance, the original task was to get a group of DEs into the castle to do..something.. It is quite possible that Draco fixed the cabinet that night because he had help that he was unaware of, and DD had planned to let things play out that night. It would explain why DD seemed to have extra security inside the castle that night.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Mattew Bates - Feb 27, 2007 12:02 pm (#128 of 287)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Die Zimtzicke - Jan 29, 2007 10:53 am (#78)

There is something that looks like a badge or shield on some of the banners the bookshops are using to advertise preorders for Deathly Hallows. This all started when someone on some board (don't know who was first now!) wondered if that's a Horcrux .

Is all this talk about the sucked-in square shape with "Year 7" in it shown here? If I'm looking at the wrong ad, could someone point me to the right one? Because that shield bears a striking resemblance to the ones with "Year 1" thru "Year 6" on these. If that's the case, then I suspect we fans have made a mountain out of a molehill.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madam Pince - Feb 27, 2007 1:52 pm (#129 of 287)

...we fans have made a mountain out of a molehill.

Us? Surely you jest... Malfoy's Task and The Vow 2281877974

(Welcome back, Mattew! Haven't seen you in awhile!)

I agree, T Vrana. Regardless of what the task was, there is no guarantee that Snape would've "given away" his "spy status" just by accomplishing the deed. It was purely because circumstances went awry that night on the Astronomy Tower that he had to be publicly present in the first place. Depending on what the task was, he could potentially have done it without ever being suspected.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

mona amon - Feb 28, 2007 7:53 am (#130 of 287)

T Vrana and Madam Pince, maybe Snape would not necessarily have to blow his cover. But the risk is there (looking at it from LV's point of view), especially since the task is supposed to be difficult and dangerous.

My point is that LV will not risk wasting Snape on this task (if it is something other than killing DD) since he is the only one who can get rid of DD for him.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madam Pince - Feb 28, 2007 6:45 pm (#131 of 287)

Why do you think Snape is the only one who can get rid of Dumbledore for him? (Apologies in advance if you already explained this and I missed something...)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

mona amon - Feb 28, 2007 7:24 pm (#132 of 287)

Madam Pince, this is the way I see it.DD is the only one LV ever feared. And LV is an extremely talented wizard, perhaps second only to DD. So, since he is not confident about killing him himself (Slughorn claims that he has never sought a fight with DD, and when he tried to kill him in the MoM, he failed) he would have even less confidence that his bunch of bungling DEs would be able to do it.

His only hope of killing DD would be to try an inside job, get someone who has DD's complete trust to catch him unawares. And who better than Snape?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madam Pince - Mar 1, 2007 2:21 pm (#133 of 287)

Ah, OK! I see! Thanks!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Mar 1, 2007 8:30 pm (#134 of 287)

But why waste Draco, an eager volunteer, and several DEs? Just to get revenge on Malfoy? Many of LV's inner circle are already in Azkaban. If LV was sure Draco would fail (and Draco killing DD did fail) why waste all those DEs? He's going to run out of followers! Plus, LV never sanctioned Snape fulfilling the task, that we know of. Snape did that on his own.

Why would LV want Draco or Snape to succeed in killing DD? Since he's the only wizard LV has ever feared, doesn't Draco or Snape's success make LV look a tad weak?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madam Pince - Mar 1, 2007 9:33 pm (#135 of 287)

That's the problem I have with the whole idea that Voldemort would send somebody else to kill Dumbledore, T Vrana. If they should actually manage to pull it off, it would make Voldemort look like a positive weenie, in my opinion. I can't imagine he'd want to lose face like that.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

mona amon - Mar 2, 2007 3:59 am (#136 of 287)

I do not know if LV has that sort of pride (and courage, for that matter), there is no evidence of it in the books. Snape claims that he acknowledges DD is a great wizard. And in GOF he is pretty cool about admitting (in front of all his DEs) that he couldn't do anything to Harry as long as he was under DD's nose, and he says "I am now going to prove my power by killing him, here and now, in front of you all, when there is no Dumbledore to protect him..."GOF chapter 33

I feel that what he wants is unlimited power, and complete control over the WW, and that he'd try to achieve this with whatever means he has. If he got someone to dispose of DD for him, he wouldn't regard it as being weak, just clever (in my opinion).

Plus, LV never sanctioned Snape fulfilling the task, that we know of. Snape did that on his own.

He does tell Cissy that he thinks LV intends him to do it in the end, but as with everything Snape says, no way to prove it. But would he make a UV agreeing to do it if he did not have LV's sanction?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Mar 2, 2007 7:43 am (#137 of 287)

I do not know if LV has that sort of pride (and courage, for that matter),there is no evidence of it in the books.

Sure he does and yes it is there. He makes a point of showing his DEs he can kill Harry (which backfires) in front of his DEs (as you point out above). He does seem to admit DD is powerful, and it seems to be known that he fears him, so sending a 17 year old with a bunch of DEs to kill him is odd. Possible outcomes in LV's mind:

1) They will fail and he loses a bunch of DEs

2) They will succeed and a 17 year old will have killed the only wizard LV ever feared (I can't think LV wants this)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

sstabeler - Mar 2, 2007 8:13 am (#138 of 287)

Not to mention, he has lost at least 2 DEs, possibly more (the only DEs we see escaping are Draco, Snape, the Carrows and the blond-haired DE. that's 5. We know that one DE was killed by a mis-aimed AK, and one was captured by the ministry ( as the Ministry found a DE stunned/body bound on top of the tower). Also, what happened to Fenrir? He was stunned during combat with Harry, and we don't see him escape. Sounds like Lupin's job will be a bit easier, IMO. I think Fenrir was captured by an Auror checking out the corridor after the battle during a minister-ordered sweep of the castle for any remaining DEs. Also, wouldn't it be ironic if, assuming Greyback has been captured, that the werewolves assume Greyback was getting weak and rally around a new leader, who is surprisingly high-profile in the werewolves, Remus Lupin. Of course, they would have to get registered. Then Voldmeort loses an important recruiting tool ( that of threatening to set werewolves on the target's children).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Mar 2, 2007 8:07 pm (#139 of 287)

I agree LV added it, but I don't think he wanted Draco to succeed.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

mona amon - Mar 2, 2007 8:15 pm (#140 of 287)

Oh dear, I deleted that post ,thinking I'd make it more clear but since you've already replied, T Vrana, I'll post the same thing-

I hope you are right about Greyback, sstabeler. He's #1 on my list of people I do not want to meet in DH. The whole question of how many followers LV has gets me muddled up, so I will not argue about that.

They will succeed and a 17 year old will have killed the only wizard LV ever feared (I can't think LV wants this)

Yet, in the Tower scene it becomes clear that Draco was told by LV to kill DD. I thought we were only discussing whether it was his original task.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't think he expected him to succeed.cBut do you really feel he'd want to confront DDc himself,cand risk getting turned into Vapomort again?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Mar 3, 2007 6:14 am (#141 of 287)

No, I don't think he wanted to face DD and that is why he avoided DD in the past and was very surprised when he arrived at the hall in the MoM.

I won't deny that LV wanted DD out of the way, but I don't think he entrusted this mission to Draco for all the reasons outlined at the start. But we have seen that LV has a temper. He punishes those who disappoint him and even makes the poor decision to go to the MoM, in a towering fury, when he realizes that the prophecy was smashed. I think in a similar fashion, when Draco was getting distracted from the original task, and making attempts at DD's life, he became angry and added the murder of DD to the original task, fully expecting Draco to fail.

So if LV did want DD out of the way, and didn't want to face him himself, what was his plan? It could be that he had originally planned for the DEs to murder DD and Draco's task was to get them in (though I think there were other DEs there to get something else), but again, when Draco overstepped his task, trying to kill DD, LV became angry and added the murder. Part of his anger would have been because he did want the DEs in to do something else and Draco was unaware of. Also, if Draco was caught with his feeble attempts, he wouldn't be available to let the DEs in. If Draco did kill DD but did not mange to get DEs in, LV's plans would still be thwarted.

If Draco's task was to kill DD, from day one, why did the attempts on DD's life stop after the wine? Even when Draco was completely desperate?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Laura W - Mar 3, 2007 6:44 am (#142 of 287)

And, if Draco stopped making attempts on Dumbledore's life after the poisoned mead incident, why do both Dumbledore and Malfoy say - in their Tower conversation - that the boy has been trying to kill the Headmaster "all year"? We don't see that.

(DD): "... You almost killed Katie Bell and Ronald Weasley. You have been trying, with increasing desperation, to kill me all year. Forgive me, Draco, but they have been feeble attempts ... I wonder whether your heart has been really in it ..."

(Malfoy): "It has been in it! I've been working on it all year ..."

Increasing desperation? "All year"? *That's* what they call two times/tries?? (scratching head)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

rambkowalczyk - Mar 3, 2007 7:00 am (#143 of 287)

If anyone has ever procrastinated on an important task, Draco's actions would make a lot of sense to that person.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Mar 3, 2007 7:05 am (#144 of 287)

Increasing desperation? "All year"? *That's* what they call two times/tries?? (Laura)

We know that Draco was working on the vanishing cabinet "all year." If DD actually knew about the cabinet, or at least that Draco was searching for a way to have a DE attack on the castle, then DD's use of the words "all year" makes sense, as well.

Of course, DD acted like he didn't know about the cabinet. But in my opinion, he did do everything one might expect someone to do who knew an attack was planned and wanted to lure the perpetrators into going ahead with it that night -- making his exit from Hogwarts obvious, calling in more Order members to patrol, bring in Lupin from his werewolf assignment, etc.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Laura W - Mar 3, 2007 7:42 am (#145 of 287)

So, when Dumbledore says to Draco, "... you have managed to introduce Death Eaters into my school which, I admit, I thought impossible ... how did you do it?" and "... so tell me , while we wait for your friends ... how did you smuggle them in here? It seems to have taken you a long time to work out to do it." and when Malfoy tells him about the Vanishing Cabinets and DD replies, "Aaaah. That was clever ... there is a pair, I take it?", are you saying you do not believe him?

That is, you do not believe DD really did not know how Draco got the DEs into the castle and that he was not hearing the answer to this for the first time from Malfoy and that he was not genuinely impressed ("that was clever") and did not on the spot surmise that there must have been two Cabinets?

Which is a long way of me saying, do you think Dumbledore knew all about Draco working all year to get the DEs into the castle and trying to fix the Cabinet in order to accomplish that? And that DD was lying when he pretended, as per the conversation above, that he didn't know about this?

(Blimey, are we back to arguing - er, discussing - our cases on the basis of whether we believe or do not believe what a character says?! Well then, so be it. - grin)

Why bother with that charade? It just doesn't make sense. Dumbledore outright told Draco that he was well aware of what he had done to Ron and Katie, and that he knew about Draco trying to kill him ("all year"). Since he was being so forthcoming there on the Tower, why wouldn't he have also said something like, "I also know that you were trying to find a way to get Lord Voldemort's supporters into this castle all year. And I see you have succeeded in your task, Draco." If that were the case, that is (ie - if he knew that was Draco's task all along).

At least as far as that specific Tower conversation goes, *I* would say DD's talk of Draco's feeble tries all year refer to his trying to kill DD, and only that - even though *we* only see Draco making two tries. I'm not saying Dumbledore did not know more than that single fact regarding the task or anything else. At this point in the game, that is all speculation. And there is nothing wrong with speculation.

Still, I'm just looking strictly at the wording of that one Astronomy Tower conversation here. And Dumbledore *did* seem to be surprised about the DEs getting in and about the Vanishing Cabinets being used to accomplish this (as well as the whole Rosmerta under the Imperius Curse thing). At least, I believe he genuinely was.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Mar 3, 2007 8:14 am (#146 of 287)

Malfoy was trying to kill DD since the start, but the first attempts, IMO, were on his own. I don't think DD knew about the vanishing cabinet, but he may have known that Draco was trying to get DEs in, as he does seem to have a larger contingent inside that he has in the past. Note DD says he thought getting anyone in was impossible, almost like he's not surprised Draco was trying, but more that he succeeded.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madam Pince - Mar 3, 2007 10:31 am (#147 of 287)

I just finished a HBP re-read, and so I read that passage just last night. It read to me as if Dumbledore was "monologue-ing" Draco -- trying to draw out the conversation in order to delay things and give *?something?* a chance to happen. (Snape's arrival, perhaps?) And I wondered, too, if the "Aaaahhh"s (which Dumbledore spoke on several different occasions) were more moans/sighs of anguish or pain rather than "Ah-ha! Now I see!" type of "Aaaahhh"s -- does that make sense? I was trying to think of it more from the perspective of how Dumbledore was physically affected by the cave potion, than how I had previously read it. It's hard to tell from a read, though, rather than actually hearing Dumbledore say "Aaaahhhh..." It will be interesting to see how the movie translates it.

I don't know if I'm saying Dumbledore was lying or not, just that it could be read as if he's trying to buy some time by getting Draco into a conversation / bragging session.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Mar 3, 2007 11:07 am (#148 of 287)

Madam Pince, I agree with your above statement. Predominantly, DD was trying to buy extra time. Even though he knew Draco wasn't going to go through with it, I believe he was stalling for Severus's arrival for reasons I've posted on DD's Death thread. Regarding the "Aaaahhh", that's an interesting way to look at it. Hadn't occurred to me, but I also agree that the potion was killing him slowly (as he thought it might) and he was staying alive out of sheer will.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Mar 3, 2007 12:23 pm (#149 of 287)

when Malfoy tells him about the Vanishing Cabinets and DD replies, "Aaaah. That was clever ... there is a pair, I take it?", are you saying you do not believe him? (Laura)

DD may not have known exactly how Draco was going to get DE's in the castle, but I think he did know there was a plan to get DE's in. He may not have previously thought it could be done, but by that evening, I think he did know DE's might come. Does that mean he was giving some misinformation to Draco? Yeah, sure.

Why would he do that? Especially since he was already admitting to knowing Draco's efforts almost killed Katie and Ron?

My guess (and I've stated this other places), is that Snape had been alerted that DE's would be coming -- possibly by one of the DE's involved in the attack. Therefore, DD knew they were coming even though he (and Snape) didn't know about the cabinets. That explains why DD had so many Order members within the castle and made his leaving Hogwarts so overtly obvious.

As regards whether we believe all the characters all the time -- well, no, we don't believe all of them all the time. There are numerous characters who must be lying occasionally, and others who are known to be highly biased in certain areas. JKR has given us no indication that we should simply believe them all in blanket form. DD has certainly been known to lie to people before (in his office in OOTP, for instance), especially when he needed to protect someone. If he was protecting Snape, from whom he could have gotten the info of the impending attack, then he'd naturally have to pretend to Draco that he knew nothing about it. Besides, if he admitted knowing ahead of time, then he's as good as admitting that there's an element of "set up" to the whole thing. And he can't admit that to Draco, who may go report back to LV.

In my opinion, both DD's actions and Snape's give clues that they knew what about the planned DE attack (Snape's direct run to the tower, and the DE's lack of surprise at seeing him).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Thom Matheson - Mar 3, 2007 7:38 pm (#150 of 287)

The idea if Dumbledore knowingly letting Death Eaters into the castle is about as likely as letting Dementors in. Whatever clandestine read on the situation that Dumbledore may have had that, can't be one of them. I won't believe that he would put anything before the safety of his students and his school. You all are really reaching for this one I think.

If he had any inkling of the plan as it unfolded, he would have waited on the Horcrux hunt with Harry and stayed behind. Leaving the castle even for a trap to be set would not have happened I don't believe.

Lady Arabella Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:29 pm

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

geauxtigers - Mar 3, 2007 8:02 pm (#151 of 287)

Sorry if this is off topic a bit, but there were 50 some-odd posts and I still haven't plowed through them all. But I just read Spinner's End and I think it’s getting more confusing every time I read it!

Draco's task. Originally, I think it was to get Trelawney out, to get the prophecy, and kill Dumbledore.

“You could do it. You could do it instead of Draco, Severus. You would succeed, of course you would,’ then Snape replies, "He intends me to do it in the end, I think." (HBP US HB pg 34)

Now looking at that, depending on how you read it, the task could be to capture Trelawney or it could be to kill Dumbledore. Snape was the one that heard part of the prophecy, and he is a skilled legilimens, and Draco can perform occlemency, and possibly legilimancy (do we ever read this?). So if Draco fails first, Snape can take over. Then that leads us to the vanishing cabinet. Was that just to get DE in the school at the end? Or was it to get Trelawney out. then we look at DD's death. Draco makes several attempts via the necklace and the meade then finally, in the end of the book, clearly Voldemort wants Draco to kill him. So my theory of tying all this together is:

Draco must fix the vanishing cabinet as a back-up for what he is trying to do. He is given the task of killing Dumbldore, thus the meade and necklace. Once he gets Dumbledore out of the way, Trelawney is that much less protected. Remember, DD would not let her leave the castle in OoP when she was sacked. He has kept her safe and she doesn't even realize it. So with DD out of the way, more room to capture her. So then we reach the end of the book where the DE’s enter in through the Vanishing cabinet. Draco is on the tower trying to kill Dumbledore while there is a Death Eater battle vs the Order. People are distracted, Dumbledore is out of the way, who’s to say that this isn't the backup plan, while everyone isn't paying attention, some DE capture Trelwaney and get her out via the cabinet. Snape takes over and kills Dumbledore. Everything that was supposed to happen originally happens, just not any who was originally supposed to do it. Make sense?

Sorry for the long post, just had a huge brainwave and it’s been months since that’s happened! Couldn't hold back, spilled while I had the chance! LOL

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Laura W - Mar 3, 2007 8:57 pm (#152 of 287)

Answering posts 149 and 150:

I too, like Thom, cannot see Dumbledore leaving Hogwarts - even with extra protection in the hallways - if he knew for certain or even strongly suspected that on that very night Death Eaters would be let into the castle. That would be totally irresponsible of him. Aurors and others there might be to fight the DEs, but nobody is as powerful as DD. Look how he roped in the DEs at the MOM in OoP, and handed them over to Fudge on a platter. None of the other Order members fighting in that battle could have done that - as evidenced by the fact that they didn't -, not to mention DD taking on the most powerful Dark Wizard in the world in the Atrium and surviving. Not only surviving, but without a scratch.

Having the Headmaster at the school when the DEs arrived would have been more than invaluable. It would have been imperative. Remember, not only adults were fighting the DEs in the corridor. Five of Dumbledore's Army (three of them under-aged wizards) were too. These young people would not have been put in such direct peril (thank Merlin for Felix Felicis!) had DD been there. And he would know that. The captain does not abandon his ship and leave it to his subordinates (including possibly Snape) - however able and brave they be - if he is sure or feels strongly that the enemy pirates will be attacking when he is away.

If he had been aware of what was going to happen on that particular night in June or even within a few days of it - that Draco Malfoy would finally succeed in getting DEs into Hogwarts, somehow (even though DD tells Draco he thought that was impossible (and I believe DD did think that; you can choose to think he said that but didn't mean it) -, he could have gone Horcrux hunting with Harry the day before or the day after or next week. And knowing, by six books worth of canon regarding DDs character, how protective Dumbledore is of Hogwarts and all who reside there or have ever attended it, I am sure he would have picked another night to go to the Cave.

Laura

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Mar 3, 2007 9:55 pm (#153 of 287)

I too, like Thom, cannot see Dumbledore leaving Hogwarts - even with extra protection in the hallways - if he knew for certain or even strongly suspected that on that very night Death Eaters would be let into the castle. (Laura)

The problem is that the attack would only have occurred when DD was gone, and that, in fact, is what happened. Rosmerta contacted Draco (at least as far as we know) with the news that DD was out of the castle and that helped signal that it was time to get the attack under way.

Exactly what else was DD doing with that obvious "See me? I'm leaving the castle now!" performance through Hogsmeade? DD could have been invisible just like Harry -- as JKR has recently reminded us. No, DD wanted to be seen leaving.

And DD not allowing the castle to be at risk? Well, not by DD's standards -- I agree. But look at DD's standards of acceptable risk. It's okay to house Fluffy in the castle, even though kids stumbling into the room (which occurred) could have died horrible deaths. Hide the sorcerer's stone in the castle even though there may be (and were) deadly attempts made to get it. Don't close the school even though students are being petrified. Allow a werewolf (who indeed forgot his potion and threatened students) to teach. Allow an ex-death eater to teach and lead a house. Come on guys.... DD allows lots of risks. It's just that he tends to think he's got the risk factors all covered. And he did that night as well -- Order members were there and no students were killed.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Luna Logic - Mar 4, 2007 2:34 am (#154 of 287)
Edited by Mar 4, 2007 2:39 am

Two questions are discussed recently in the thread : 1. What was Malfoy's task? 2. What did Dumbledore think Malfoy's task was?
Question 2: The quotes and arguments above convinced me that we do not have any clue or hint in canon indicating that Dumbledore thought that the task of Malfoy was not the task to kill him.
So I agree with the opinions that
- Dumbledore thought that Malfoy’s task was to kill him.
- He had deduced from the “two feeble attempts” that Malfoy did not have too much heart on the task. (Only two attempts, and not direct ones)
- It did not worry him very much, as he was betting on Draco’s personality (not a killer), and thus waiting for the favorable occasion to offer him the Wizard Protection Program solution.

Concerning a possible arrival of DE at Hogwarts:
I share the opinion of Laura: Dumbledore (and everyone, including readers) were persuaded that it was impossible. Here again, not any clue in canon for the contrary :
The only possible hint in canon: the disappearance of Montague in the vanishing cabinet. But this indicated that one could LEAVE Hogwarts without being located - leave but not arrive somewhere. So this fact was not a clue leading Dumbledore to think that one could ENTER Hogwarts. Only those who were knowing of the existence of another cabinet, outside Hogwarts, could eventually think of it. Which was not DD’s case.

Question 1: Malfoy’s task. Three questions there :
1.1. What was the original task given by Voldemort to Draco?
1.2. Did Voldemort change the task during Malfoy’s Christmas holiday?
1.3. Did Voldemort have a plan in two parts, the first part requiring the success of an action entrusted to Drago, the second part being held hidden to Drago?
(Sorry for not taking the whole of your argumentation, geauxtigers, considering you were tying all questions and facts together ! But thanks to put all of those elements on your post.)
- geauxtigers #151 "You could do it. You could do it instead of Draco, Severus. You would succeed, of course you would," then Snape replies, "He intends me to do it in the end, I think." (HBP US HB pg 34)
geauxtigers: Now looking at that, depending on how you read it, the task could be to capture Trelawney or it could be to kill Dumbledore.
(…)the vanishing cabinet. Was that just to get DE in the school at the end? Or was it to get Trelawney out.
(..)Draco must fix the vanishing cabinet as a back-up for what he is trying to do.

Geauxtigers proposes then her solution ( #151). But I will stay behind some more because I am wondering about the idea “vanishing cabinet as a back-up”.

If the task is to kill Dumbledore, could the back-up be for Drago himself, to escape, the murder being done? But on his first attempts he appears to take great care in not leaving traces leading to him…

Then my new questions are :
Why does Malfoy tries so hard to fix the vanishing cabinet if his task is to kill Dumbledore? And can this question help to clarify point 1.2. and point 1.3. : the eventuality of a task changed by Voldemort at Christmas, and the eventuality of a hidden part of Voldemort plan?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Anna L. Black - Mar 4, 2007 3:08 am (#155 of 287)

1.3. Did Voldemort have a plan in two parts, the first part requiring the success of an action entrusted to Drago, the second part being held hidden to Drago? - Luna Logic

I think he did. Why?
First, what is Voldemort trying to achieve right now? We know that in OotP he was after the Prophecy. He must be still after it, because otherwise he would have tried to bring Harry to him. As Solitaire describes here: That left two ways of hearing the prophecy: Dumbledore, who heard it originally, and Trelawney, who made it. [...] Trelawney does seem like a more obvious choice than Dumbledore. As an old tosspot, she is weaker and more vulnerable and would make an easier target, IMO.
So, I believe that (at least part of) Voldemort's plan was to kidnap Trelawney.

Secondly, is Draco the one who needs to bring Trelawney in? Probably not. I say this because when she stumbled into the Room of Requirement, he threw her out of there, and continued celebrating his success on finishing the task. If his mission was to get her, we probably would've taken her as soon as she came into the RoR. (Hmmm, although he could've realized only later that it was her in the room, and he still had the chance to seize her after Harry left her in the corridor. )

Anyway, is makes sense that Draco's task was to let the DEs in, so that they would capture Trelawney (We actually don't know how many DEs made it into the castle. Some of them might still be hiding there...). Besides that, he also had to kill DD, which eventually Snape did for him.

Edited to add the last paragraph.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Mar 4, 2007 3:17 am (#156 of 287)

One reason I don't truly believe DD's comment that he hadn't thought DE's could get in the castle, is that throughout the series the castle has had numerous dangerous people or things prowling around.

Quirrell brought a troll in. A basilisk roamed the water pipes. A supposedly dangerous mass murderer who everyone was looking for got in twice -- once all the way into student's dorm rooms. A Death Eater in disguise taught all school year and whisked two students into Voldemort's presence.

DD may not have known exactly how Draco could perhaps get DEs into the castle, but surely he wasn't so trusting in the oft-breached castle defenses to believe it wasn't possible.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

mona amon - Mar 4, 2007 4:44 am (#157 of 287)

Wow! A lot seems to have happened on this thread since I was last here!

I would just like to say that I wholeheartedly support Thom and Laura (posts#150 and #152).It is unthinkable that DD would consider anything more important than the safety of his students.

The problem is that the attack would only have occurred when DD was gone .(Wynnleaf)

All the more reason to stay back, and avoid the likes of Greyback entering and savaging the students.

One reason I don't truly believe DD's comment that he hadn't thought DE's could get in the castle, is that throughout the series the castle has had numerous dangerous people or things prowling around (Wynnleaf)

Yes, that does make DD's mistake greater. The castle's security has been breached before, and yet he underestimates Draco. But it is still a mistake. So I too add my name to the list of people who believe DD's comment that he thought it was impossible for Draco to get DE's into the castle.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Mar 4, 2007 6:15 am (#158 of 287)

Yes, that does make DD's mistake greater. The castle's security has been breached before, and yet he underestimates Draco. But it is still a mistake. (mona amon)

I realize you're commenting on my list of dangerous people and creatures that got into Hogwarts in the series, and are saying that DD made a mistake in assuming it couldn't happen again.

But my point is also that DD does knowingly allow huge risks within the castle. I listed several that have occurred over the series including the ways in which students almost got injured or killed because of those risks which DD willingly took or allowed. So the argument that DD won't allow extremely risky things to happen in Hogwarts just simply doesn't follow canon.

The thing about Dumbledore is not that he won't allow huge risks, but that he always seems to think he has the risk under control. And in fact, he appeared to in HBP as well, at least insofar as no students were killed, in part because he had so many Order members on hand.

So back to Draco's Vow, his task, and whether or not DD knew about it or expected it to take the direction of bringing DEs into the castle -- I think DD may not have known about the DEs until just prior to the attack (long enough ahead of time to bring in a lot of Order members). But I do think he was expecting something far beyond Draco all by himself trying something.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Mar 4, 2007 8:40 am (#159 of 287)

I agree with Wynnleaf that DD has always taken risks. Moma amon and Laura, you sound like Hermione from SS/PS! She too, thought it was irresponsible of DD to let Harry go after Quirrell.

I don't think DD knew for sure that Draco would act that night, but I do think he suspected it was possible and took reasonable precautions considering he did think it was impossible to get DEs in. DD needed to get Horcruxes and teach Harry. If he sat around the castle all year, on the chance that something bad would happen, this would not get done. He had to trust his Order to protect the castle and students. He can't do everything himself! Getting rid of LV is priority #1, that protects everyone. The students were safe in their beds, and the Order was patrolling. DD did his job, and so did the Order.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Luna Logic - Mar 4, 2007 9:09 am (#160 of 287)
Edited by Mar 4, 2007 9:10 am

T Vrana: DD needed to get Horcruxes and teach Harry. If he sat around the castle all year, on the chance that something bad would happen, this would not get done. He had to trust his Order to protect the castle and students. He can't do everything himself! Getting rid of LV is priority #1, that protects everyone. The students were safe in their beds, and the Order was patrolling. DD did his job, and so did the Order.

I really agree with that part of your post, T Vrana. I was trying to express that idea but could not find words: DD could not stay in the castle all the time, he has to find the Horcruxes or to teach Harry in finding them. Because, if this task is not done, the risk is that not only some children will be wounded or killed, but so much people more... We already had a discussion in another thread about priority at war's time. As you say "Getting rid of LV is priority #1, that protects everyone."

But: I'm still not convinced at all that DD had "imagined" that the DE could get in Hogwarts.
No more that he had imagined a Troll could get in. (I must confess I don't remember HOW the Troll did exactly get in )
He has set general defenses of Hogwarts, against any intrusion that he could imagine, that's the problem of all the plans. And he has to reinforce defenses when he must leave Hogwarts, because he, himself, is a very important part of the defenses.

Wynnleaf: I must say I have difficulties to understand your real point of view. (Perhaps due to a misunderstanding, or lack of understanding on my part, I have no problem to admit it !). Are you proposing a deliberate strategy, Dumbledore's strategy, choosing this particular evening to go Horcrux ' hunting, knowing all of Malfoy's task, and thus letting the DE in? Concerning that point I really couldn't tell what you are thinking, and I mean absolutey no offence at all, on the contrary, I'm wishing to understand your point of view without making mistakes. (Luna sometimes lost in other's logics)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Mar 4, 2007 9:27 am (#161 of 287)

But: I'm still not convinced at all that DD had "imagined" that the DE could get in Hogwarts.

I agree. I think he was just erring on the side of caution by bringing the Order inside.

Then again, I sometimes wonder if he did know they could get in and had the Order stationed between the RoR and the students, but planned for the DEs to successfully get to the tower base. He did say Draco did this all under his nose. Sounded not like an admission, but a warning.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Mar 4, 2007 11:10 am (#162 of 287)

Wynnleaf: I must say I have difficulties to understand your real point of view. (Perhaps due to a misunderstanding, or lack of understanding on my part, I have no problem to admit it !). Are you proposing a deliberate strategy, Dumbledore's strategy, choosing this particular evening to go Horcrux ' hunting, knowing all of Malfoy's task, and thus letting the DE in? Concerning that point I really couldn't tell what you are thinking, and I mean absolutely no offence at all, on the contrary, I'm wishing to understand your point of view without making mistakes. (Luna sometimes lost in other's logics)

I think some of my theories that I've mentioned on other threads are spilling in without my having explained them here yet. So I'll try to explain.

DD knew Draco was tasked to do something that year. He did seem to think Draco's primarily task was to kill him. If Snape is loyal, DD probably knew that Draco had to fulfill his deed or risk his parent's and possibly his own death after school was out. DD had to somehow bring the situation to a crisis so that he could make his offer of a wizarding protection program to Draco.

If Snape is loyal, DD also knew that Snape made an Unbreakable Vow to complete Draco's task if necessary. That would mean DD would see that forcing a crisis would probably set up a situation where either he or Snape would have to die (or fake the death if possible - hard to say if he tried this and failed).

So DD needed a plan, not just some sort of hope that all would work out. He actually needed to force a crisis. And that crisis couldn't really be forced without Draco making a direct attempt on DD, so that Draco can learn he's not a killer.

Many of DD's actions and comments that night could be clues that he knew Draco would act if he, DD, left the castle. DD made his leaving blatant. He later talked to Draco as though he may have known more about Draco's plans than he let on -- his "under my nose, as it were" sorts of comments, for instance, sound like he could be speaking a bit facetiously.

In spite of being able to send a Patronus to Snape, DD instead wanted Harry to go get him. Even when he decided to go to the tower, DD still wanted Harry to go get Snape, rather than sending a Patronus. Yet if DD simply needed Snape for medical care, why not fly his broom to Snape, or send a much faster Patronus (much faster than Harry)?

Further, Snape could have been waiting for some sort of alert in his offices. When Flitwick came to get him, Flitwick would have had no idea that DD was on the tower. None of the Order members knew that. Yet Snape needed, because of the Vow, to get to Dumbledore, not just where ever the battle was going on. And he went directly to the tower, without apparently ever asking anyone where DD was. Tonks said that one moment she saw him, and the next she didn't, as though Snape went directly through the fighting and straight up the stairs. It's almost as though he knew exactly where to go. Some say, "oh, yes, he knew that people were trying to go up the stairs, so he probably realized something was going on up there." But Snape wasn't looking for where ever the battles were taking place. Because of the Vow, he needed to find DD and Draco. And he went directly to the tower. Last, when he got there, the DEs seemed unsurprised to see him, even though Draco was trying to keep him out of the loop of info.

How would Snape know that events would play out on the tower? Draco said they'd already planned to put up the Mark on the tower to lure DD. It could be that a DE filled Snape in on some of the plans. That would explain how DD and Snape could know at least some of the basic plans, as well as why Snape would know that he'd find DD on the tower.

So my theory is that DD knew that once the attack started, the plan would involve an attempt to lure him to the tower. Snape knew that as well, and when he was alerted after the battle had started, he knew the place to find DD was on the tower.

However, DD did not necessarily know how Draco could get DEs into the castle. But I think he did expect them. He expected the attack to occur on a night when he'd been observed to leave the castle. So on the night he went to get the Horcrux , he called in Order members, including Lupin from his werewolf assignment, and stationed them within the castle (Harry, in spite DD's many absences and in spite of many nights searching the Marauders Map, had never observed a group of Order members patrolling).

So -- I think DD expected (possibly not for certain, but a good idea) that an attack would occur. He felt he'd left the castle safe in the hands of Order members. He needed Draco to go ahead with a plan that would force a crisis. So DD actually would have wanted Draco to do something. And better for it to be an attempt that DD would know about and be prepared for, than random poisonings and curses as Draco had done in the past.

Remember -- DD would not have wanted Draco to go home from Hogwarts without this issue being resolved in some way. Otherwise, Draco could be going home to his and his parent's deaths.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Luna Logic - Mar 4, 2007 11:46 am (#163 of 287)
Edited by Mar 4, 2007 12:08 pm

Wynnleaf, I can now say I have being hesitating to ask my last direct question to you.. but now, I felicitate myself for doing it! I wanted logic and I have got it... I wanted, too, something which wouldn't go against my idea of the characters, and your answer did fit, in that direction too.

Now I have to meditate on your theory, but it really makes great sense IMO...

I have seen the principal bit I couldn't grasp, it was about the DE and Snape. (Sorry if it was clear in your previous posts and I didn't see it, but now I understand your point.) Let's see :

Snape, we tend to forget it (I tend to forget it!) is part of the DE... Sometimes, he meets with them, of, if not, he meets with Voldemort, who, elsewhere, has some meetings with the DE.

Now, supposing Voldemort has a plan concerning an attack against Hogwarts (sure it's his goal now, concerning Trelawney, or concerning Dumbledore, or even concerning hidden Horcrux es why not, but I agree it's his goal).

What are, from his point of view, his instruments? 1. Drago; 2. some DE; 3. Snape;.

So Snape, as a DE or as Voldemort's spy, is informed of the attack, and (maybe.. or not, to keep his cover?)is given a role in it.

But the point is, he knows about the Dark Mark which will be cast above the Tower to "lure" Dumbledore (speaking from Voldemort point of view...)

Now, if Snape is a "good guy" (let's say, he is Dumbledore's ally...), he informs Dumbledore of the plan. Which plan is: When the vanishing cabinet is fixed, and as soon as Dumbledore leaves Hogwarts, DE have to get in, into Hogwarts, and (attack?), and Draco must kill Dumbledore on the Tower. DE having to check if Draco really does the task, or having to do the killing because Voldemort doesn't trust Draco succeeding in that task.

The rest, you have make it very clear in your last post, and I need some time to think about it! (Will I buy it? hm hm...)

But, with that theory, yes, Voldemort needs absolutly Draco making the way for DE's
(for what other task, that is another question... the question of this thread !)

Thanks again for explaining, and let me know if my reading of your explanation is not right! (Luna Logic, always ready to consider seriously any logical theory).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Mar 4, 2007 12:37 pm (#164 of 287)

Luna, yes I think you understood me pretty well.

We readers often assume that DD wouldn't want Draco to bring his task to some sort of culminating moment. But I think DD would want that. DD needs Draco to realize he's not a killer -- something the failed attempts with the necklace and the poisoned mead didn't do. DD needs to let Draco face him with his wand and realize he can't do it. Otherwise, Draco leaves the castle at the end of the school year and LV kills him. Further (assuming DD thinks, rightly or wrongly that Snape made a vow to complete Draco's task to kill DD), if Draco leaves the school having "failed," not only may Draco die, Snape may die, too, if not from not having killed DD, then from failing to protect Draco from LV's punishment.

So DD needed Draco to go ahead with his attempt. Of course, DD would want the castle secured so that whatever Draco tried, the students would be safe. But that doesn't mean he didn't want Draco's plan to go forward.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madam Pince - Mar 4, 2007 1:31 pm (#165 of 287)

Well, you won me over, wynnleaf.

Are you a lawyer? If not, you should be. That was an excellent closing argument for Snape's defense trial.

...is Draco the one who needs to bring Trelawney in? Probably not. I say this because when she stumbled into the Room of Requirement, he threw her out of there, and continued celebrating his success on finishing the task. If his mission was to get her, he probably would've taken her as soon as she came into the RoR. ***D'oh! Thunks self on head*** Anna Black, that was an excellent point you made about Draco and Trelawney; one I hadn't thought of before. Good catch! I need to mull that one over awhile...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Mar 4, 2007 3:21 pm (#166 of 287)

...is Draco the one who needs to bring Trelawney in? Probably not. I say this because when she stumbled into the Room of Requirement, he threw her out of there, and continued celebrating his success on finishing the task. If his mission was to get her, he probably would've taken her as soon as she came into the RoR. - Anna Black

I'm not sure about that because we know Draco doesn't like to do anything without back-up, and he didn't necessarily know it was Trelawney who entered. The Cabinet was around a turn and if he was busy whooping it up, he easily might not have recognised her voice and just threw the Peruvian Powder and tossed whoever it was out as a reflexive reaction.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

TomProffitt - Mar 4, 2007 4:43 pm (#167 of 287)

wynnleaf, your position on Draco & the Task works for me on all but one very important point.

I am unable to accept that a loyal Severus Snape would take the Unbreakable Vow without knowing Draco's Task and accepting it as something that would not be opposed by Dumbledore. (If I remember my timelines correctly, the Vow occured prior to the injury to Dumbledore's hand, but I may be wrong, or this may be irrelevant) The argument that Snape was "tricked" into agreeing to complete the Task is very weak to me and I think seeing the Task completed is implied strongly prior to that added third part enough not to be risked.

It's Snape and the Vow which is the weak point in this theory to me.

I think that Rowling has intentionally left us too little information to sort this out.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

geauxtigers - Mar 4, 2007 5:55 pm (#168 of 287)

I agree with everything you've said Wynnleaf. But I also think Trelawney is factored into this as well. What Voldemort wants more than anything is the prophecy in its entire form. So if we take what you've said and factor in the possibilty that perhaps while the battle was going on, DE were able to capture Trelawney. We have no clue of any of this, there is very little canon to support it. That being that she wasn't mentioned at the funeral. But I think this is one of those things that Jo wants us to push aside and not even think about so she can spring it on us in DH at which point lots of people will **gasp** and have a **Oh my gosh!** moment. Seems very possible.

I also think that the way you explained DD's knowing about Draco and the confrontation with him fits perfectly with the fact I'm positive everything that happened that night was planned. When I have more time to finish reading HBP I might be able to add more, but I think you've covered it all! Very well thought out! I have to go read A Tale of Two Cities now....**grumble grumble**

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Laura W - Mar 4, 2007 6:26 pm (#169 of 287)

I don't think DD knew for sure that Draco would act that night, but I do think he suspected it was possible and took reasonable precautions considering he did think it was impossible to get DEs in.

I agree, T. Vrana. You are, in fact, taking my side. I did not say that Dumbledore should not have gone out that night. I said, in my posts 145 and 152, that - for me - the fact that he did tells me that he was telling the truth during the Tower conversation about him believing that it was impossible for DEs to enter the castle.

What was being debated when I wrote what I did was whether Dumbledore knew for sure or almost sure that DEs would be coming into the school on that night (ie - he was not telling the truth when he told Draco he thought it was impossible) and would still leave. Some on this thread said that was the case.

If he sat around the castle all year, on the chance that something bad would happen, this would not get done.

That is so not fair, T! What you wrote about what I said in #152 bears no resemblance to what I actually wrote in #152. (frown) There is NOTHING in either of my two last posts that says he should sit around the castle all year, on the chance that something bad would happen. I only said that if he knew for sure that on a particular night Death Eaters would be let into Hogwarts by Draco Malfoy (whether he knew the method or not) - as was being argued as fact by some here - that Dumbledore would not leave the castle on that specific night.

I stand by that.

Laura

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Laura W - Mar 4, 2007 7:04 pm (#170 of 287)

Part Two (as in, too late to edit) -

That is so not fair, T ! What you wrote about what I said in #152 bears no resemblance to what I actually wrote in #152. (frown)

There is NOTHING in either of my two last posts that says he should sit around the castle all year, on the chance that something bad would happen. Did I not write: "If he had been aware of what was going to happen on that particular night in June or even within a few days of it - that Draco Malfoy would finally succeed in getting DEs into Hogwarts -, he could have gone Horcrux hunting with Harry the day before or the day after or next week."? That is in no way saying Dumbledore should stay in the castle all the time or never go to the Cave with Harry!

I only said that if he knew for sure that on a particular night Death Eaters would be let into Hogwarts by Draco Malfoy (whether DD knew the method or not) - as was being argued as a fact by some here - that Dumbledore would not leave the castle on that specific night.

Obviously I could be wrong but, for now, I stand by that.

I do believe Dumbledore was telling the truth when he told Draco Malfoy that he knew the boy was trying to kill him all that year. I do believe Dumbledore was not lying to Draco Malfoy when he said that he had always thought it was impossible for Death Eaters to get into Hogwarts. I do believe Dumbledore did not know anything about Draco using the Vanishing Cabinets to get the DEs and also using Rosmerta, and the surprise about same he expressed on the Tower was genuine. I believe he brought extra security into the school on that night simply because he knew he would be absent and these are dangerous times; not because he was specifically expecting Death Eaters (whom he believed could not penetrate the school, and who would have had to be brought in by a just-turned-17-year-old boy when the great Voldemort himself had not ever succeeded in doing so) to invade.

Anyway, if I have not made myself clear by now on this very specific issue (I thought I had done so in my last two posts, but alas!), I fear I never shall. It's all speculation anyway - until July 21.

LW

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

mona amon - Mar 4, 2007 8:13 pm (#171 of 287)

DD needed to get Horcruxes and teach Harry. If he sat around the castle all year, on the chance that something bad would happen, this would not get done.(T Vrana)

T, I think you misunderstood a little. We did not mean that DD would have to stay in the castle all the time. We were responding specifically to Wynnleaf's idea that DD deliberately left the castle that night in order to set Draco's attack plan into motion, and we felt that DD would not play around with his students' safety in that manner.

But: I'm still not convinced at all that DD had "imagined" that the DE could get in Hogwarts. No more that he had imagined a Troll could get in. (I must confess I don't remember HOW the Troll did exactly get in ) He has set general defenses of Hogwarts, against any intrusion that he could imagine, that's the problem of all the plans. And he has to reinforce defenses when he must leave Hogwarts, because he, himself, is a very important part of the defenses (Luna logic)

That was very well expressed, Luna. I totally agree.

DD had to somehow bring the situation to a crisis so that he could make his offer of a wizarding protection program to Draco.(Wynnleaf)

I agree that DD and Snape were extremely worried about Draco. But I think a lot of the worry was because they did not know what he was up to. They know he is trying to kill DD, and they know that he has some plan that he is working on. Snape tries to ask him about it, but is told to stay off. I get the feeling they were trying their utmost to prevent Draco from succeeding.

If they managed to reach the end of term without Draco achieving his task, it would then be easy to talk a terrified Draco into accepting DD's wizard protection programme. In other words, I feel that the end of term would be enough of a 'crisis' for DD's purposes.

Many of DD's actions and comments that night could be clues that he knew Draco would act if he, DD, left the castle. DD made his leaving blatant.(Wynnleaf)

Then why doesn't he make his leaving blatant, and then not so blatantly sneak back? Instead, he goes off on a dangerous mission from which there is no guarantee he will come back alive, and weakens himself by drinking strange potions, when he knows his school is in danger?

EDIT-posted at the same time as Laura. T, your post got us both worked up about the same thing at the same time!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Mar 4, 2007 8:44 pm (#172 of 287)

I'm sure that whatever was really going on, we're unlikely to guess it exactly. So my theory could easily be wrong, just as anyone else's could.

But even though my theory could be wrong, it won't be wrong because of DD not allowing Big risks around the castle. That's just not canon.

DD has allowed Fluffy. He hid the philosopher's stone in the castle knowing it could be the target of those who would stop at nothing to get it. He kept the school open while students were being petrified, thereby subjecting all of the students to the same risk. He kept the school open while a supposed mass murderer had gained access to dormitories. He allowed a werewolf and an ex-deatheater to teach there. He encouraged Harry -- no directed him -- to use a timeturner to go out and confront a huge number of dementors, risk a werewolf, and rescue Sirius, even though he could likely have done it himself.

The notion that DD wouldn't leave the castle if he knew DE's might come that night, because he wouldn't allow such a risk, simply doesn't stack up with the history of what DD has already done in canon.

The thing is -- DD always thinks he's got the risk under control. So even if DD knew Draco would bring in DEs that night, DD would feel he had minimized the risk by bringing in Order members. It might not have occurred that way, sure. But if not, it's certainly not because DD is oh-so-careful to keep the castle free of highly risky situations. To the contrary, he often directly allows substantial risks, and sometimes directly produces the risk.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Mar 4, 2007 9:00 pm (#173 of 287)

Laura and Mona- There was certainly no offense intended. It appears I misread your posts.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

mona amon - Mar 5, 2007 3:23 am (#174 of 287)

No problem, and no offense taken!

Wynnleaf, you are quite right about DD taking big risks. Whenever I read the books, I always wonder, how much did he know? To what extent was he controlling the events? To what extent did he allow events to just play out?

But this situation is different. It’s not a mere risk that he is taking. If your theory is correct, he is practically inviting the DEs in. And there is no need for him to go away. Like I said in my previous post, he can pretend to leave the castle and then return surreptitiously.

But to go off on a probably fatal expedition with only Bill, Tonks, and Lupin as extra protection just doesn't make sense to me. When have we ever seen him take that sort of risk?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Mrs Brisbee - Mar 5, 2007 3:50 am (#175 of 287)

But this situation is different. It’s not a mere risk that he is taking. If your theory is correct, he is practically inviting the DEs in. And there is no need for him to go away. Like I said in my previous post, he can pretend to leave the castle and then return surreptitiously.-- mona amon

I agree. There is a big difference between taking risks and knowing Death Eaters will run amok in your school-- and letting them.

I was thinking the reason Dumbledore left the castle visibly was because he figured Draco would not try anything while he was away. Since Dumbledore believed Draco's mission was to kill him, Dumbledore would expect that the rest of the castle was safe while Draco's target was absent from the school. Dumbledore probably believed Draco would put off any plan he had until his intended victim had returned.

Seeing the Dark Mark hovering over the school would then be a genuine shock to Dumbledore.

Lady Arabella Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:30 pm

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Luna Logic - Mar 5, 2007 4:18 am (#176 of 287)
Edited by Mar 5, 2007 4:23 am

Mrs Brisbee, your explanation is very simple. And logic.

Wynnleaf explanation is logic too, but complicated.

So we, readers of this thread, have a clear choice!
Both theories answers to the question which I called question 2 in my post here 2. What did Dumbledore thought Malfoy's task was?

The answer being: Dumbledore was thinking Draco's task was to kill him. He had his plan about that, waiting for the good occasion to offer Draco the Wizard protection Program. He has to go out Horcrux 's hunting.

Then one theory says the real target of the night was the Horcrux 's hunting (and Harry's teaching). The other theory says the real target of the night was Draco and the Vow.

(I must think about that choice...)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Mar 5, 2007 4:38 am (#177 of 287)

Then one theory says the real target of the night was the Horcrux 's hunting (and Harry's teaching). The other theory says the real target of the night was Draco and the Vow. (Luna Logic)

In my opinion, it was to "kill two birds with one stone" as it were. In other words, both were important in DD's plans.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Mar 5, 2007 6:59 am (#178 of 287)

I was thinking the reason Dumbledore left the castle visibly was because he figured Draco would not try anything while he was away. Since Dumbledore believed Draco's mission was to kill him, Dumbledore would expect that the rest of the castle was safe while Draco's target was absent from the school. Dumbledore probably believed Draco would put off any plan he had until his intended victim had returned.

Then why the seeming extra protection in the halls that night?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Mrs Brisbee - Mar 5, 2007 7:14 am (#179 of 287)

Because Dumbledore himself said that he always leaves extra protections in place when he leaves. Draco is not the only threat that exists. Plus, it's just good sense.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Mar 5, 2007 7:21 am (#180 of 287)

Because Dumbledore himself said that he always leaves extra protections in place when he leaves.

While I don't doubt DD has various protections, Harry studied the Marauder's Map most of the year and never noticed a contingent of Order members such as were there the night the DEs came. And if DD didn't actually expect trouble of any greater likelihood than any other night, why did he call in Lupin who was sort of "unground" on his werewolf mission?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Mrs Brisbee - Mar 5, 2007 7:36 am (#181 of 287)

Did Harry specifically study the Marauder's Map on nights Dumbledore was confirmed away? I'm asking because I honestly don't remember that being stated in the book.

If the Order members were patrolling the castle, that's a lot of area for them to cover. Note that Ron, Ginny, and Neville did not see the Order once while staking out the RoR on the night Dumbledore was killed. They had the Marauder's Map and were staking out prime real estate.

As for why Lupin was there-- well, why not? There's nothing to suggest that no other Order members are capable of patrolling hallways therefore he needed desperately to be recalled. He was probably available that evening for the task, just like Bill and Tonks.

Actually, I hope Dumbledore did put extra protection in place. It would show he at least listened to Harry, and it would make good sense to err on the safe side. It's not like Draco's last two murder attempts didn't go awry. Two students in Dumbledore's charge were nearly killed. Why wouldn't Dumbledore take reasonable precautions?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madam Pince - Mar 5, 2007 1:18 pm (#182 of 287)

For what it's worth, I read mona's and Laura's posts the same way you did, T Vrana. It sounded to me like mona and Laura were saying it would be irresponsible for Dumbledore to leave Hogwarts if he knew or strongly suspected a break-in by the DEs, and that T Vrana and wynnleaf were saying that Dumbledore had done similarly risky things before, and in fact may even have intentionally wanted to do so this time in order to precipitate a confrontation that needed to happen in order for Draco to be offered the Wizarding Protection Program thing and to realize that he wasn't really a killer. Nothing to get excited about there, to me -- just two different interpretations, both plausible.

I think yes, it could definitely be considered an irresponsible act by Dumbledore. But I also think it was a calculated risk. Dumbledore had thought it out, and felt that the risk was acceptable, or he wouldn't have done it. He had just discovered where the cave was, and had just received the info from Harry about Slughorn's memory, so he needed to move as quickly as possible. He is a great wizard, but he can't be everywhere at once, so he sets his most trusted seconds (the Order) to be where he cannot be. It essentially succeeded in the long run, so his calculated risk paid off. (Well, except for the fact that the locket seems to have been fake, but he couldn't possibly have known that...)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

John Bumbledore - Mar 5, 2007 1:18 pm (#183 of 287)

Pardon me for jumping to the end, I first made the following post on the poll discussion thread but though it may have more reason to be here. I don't know if any of my points have been addressed yet, so I would ask you to overlook any such revisited items as a product of my haste.

Dumbledore believed he and Harry were the only ones to know the full prophecy that Trelawney had given. Even if they took Trelawney, there does not appear to be any evidence that she would recall any of the prophecy.

Snape knows part of the prophecy, told that part to Voldemort. It follows that Voldemort knows both who gave the prophecy and that Dumbledore was the only one to have heard all of it (if there is more or not and if anyone at all heard all of it.)

I think it safe to conclude that Dumbledore keeps Trelawney safe at Hogwarts not for need to protect the prophecy but to protect her from Voldemort. He would damage or kill her even in a hopeless attempt to extract a memory that she does not have. Alternately Dumbledore may have been guarding against the possibility that Trelawney would make another prophecy in the future, wishing to prevent such a prophecy from falling upon the wrong ears.

If either is valid, then the greater danger was if Dumbledore was captured alive. Thus the expression on Snape's face could indicate that he abhorred the necessity of killing the weakened Dumbledore in order to protect the prophecy.

If Voldemort thought anyone else had knowledge of the prophecy, he would seek to capture and extract the memory. Thus, such a sacrifice by Dumbledore may serve to protect Harry, Ron and Hermione from abduction and interrogation, as only Dumbledore knew who else had been told the prophecy.

Sorry, this may not be strictly a discussion of these polls but it just all came to my mind and I wanted to get in recorded.

I would conclude that Draco's task was to get the Death Eaters into Hogwarts and to capture Dumbledore for questioning.

Addendum:

It would appear that Narcissa and the death eaters as a whole expected the task to be to kill Dumbledore. However, I don't think any of them know why the prophecy is so important to Voldemort. That would require knowledge of the contents of the prophecy that Voldemort would not wish to release. The natural, in their way of thinking, desire being to destroy one's greatest rival.

I expect that Dumbledore would have encouraged such a rumor and even used in his talk with Draco. If Dumbledore guessed correctly that Draco was told to attack and weaken Dumbledore for capture and torture, he may have pushed Draco to act.

To me, the questions are which goal would Draco most fear both failure and success? Why would he fear success? or Why would his fear of failure prevent his attempt?

Edit: Reply to Tom's question regarding the unbreakable vow.

That comes down to what Narcissa, Snape, and Bella believed was that task, not was Draco's task actually was. Doesn't it?

John Bumbledore <)B^D˜

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

TomProffitt - Mar 5, 2007 1:26 pm (#184 of 287)

John, this doesn't seem to work for me because of the Unbreakable Vow Snape took. Wouldn't Severus be dead now for having made Draco's task impossible to complete? I don't think that there is much wiggle room on that end.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Mar 5, 2007 1:43 pm (#185 of 287)

I think yes, it could definitely be considered an irresponsible act by Dumbledore. But I also think it was a calculated risk. Dumbledore had thought it out, and felt that the risk was acceptable, or he wouldn't have done it. He had just discovered where the cave was, and had just received the info from Harry about Slughorn's memory, so he needed to move as quickly as possible. He is a great wizard, but he can't be everywhere at once, so he sets his most trusted seconds (the Order) to be where he cannot be. - Madam Pince

I completely agree with the above. To me, DD's priority was Horcruxes -- a) traveling extensively all school year in order to locate and destroy as many as possible; b) securing the authentic Horcrux memory from Slughorn; c) teaching Harry as much as possible about Horcruxes so that Harry could carry on the quest when DD was gone, which, I believe, DD was preparing to do - die from his injuries.

He had to have trusted the Order. Minerva, we are told by Madam Pomfrey in OoP, would never have been hit by those Stunning curses in battle, Remus has proven himself quite accomplished, Nymphadora and Kingsley are Aurors, Bill's a curse-breaker, as well as Professor Flitwick, (and Severus?) and others... This seems ample security on top of all the extra enchantments. I do feel that DD was aware DE's could be entering the castle, that anything was possible. Even someone like Kreacher - if he could do what he did in OoP, he could have mentioned indirectly certain clues or secrets about Hogwarts to Malfoys or Bella. DD must have been prepared for the worst at all times.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madam Pince - Mar 5, 2007 1:54 pm (#186 of 287)

That's an interesting question, John Bumbledore. If Narcissa and Bella were mistaken about what they believed Draco's task to be, would the Unbreakable Vow still hold? Would Snape also have to be ignorant of the actual task, or not? Hmmmm. No way to know those things until JKR tells us more about Unbreakable Vows, I suppose, but that makes for interesting thought.

Another thought that your post brings to mind -- if someone "pulls out" a memory and places it into a Pensieve, is that memory then erased from the person's mind until it is retrieved and put back in? In other words, if Dumbledore had "stored" the prophecy memory in his Pensieve, would capturing him and interrogating him do any good? Maybe they were trying to steal the Pensieve?

It seems a person knows which memories are in his Pensieve, so he knows to go and look at them, because Dumbledore knew to go look in the Pensieve to show Harry what the prophecy was all about. But I wonder was the whole prophecy still in his brain too, or just the knowledge that "I stored the info about the prophecy in my Pensieve..."?

My head is starting to hurt again...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

lobelia - Mar 6, 2007 9:13 am (#187 of 287)

I agree with John Bumbledore that Dumbledore took a calculated risk in leaving for the journey. As a leader you have to delegate and he trusted his "army" to do their job. I would bet that Dumbledore's main goal is to vanquish or help to vanquish Voldemort. If you vanquish Voldemort you no longer have to worry about the safety of the students in Hogwarts. Letting other people try to get the Horcrux es so that Dumbledore can stay available in the school, would open those people up to certain mortal peril. They would know Voldemort's secret and Voldemort would know that Dumbledore knew. Remember Dumbledore seems to know Tom Riddle the best of any other individual. While Dumbledore has left much protection on the castle, he feels certain that it will be ok for the time he is away with the addition of the extra aurors.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Solitaire - Apr 2, 2007 11:05 am (#188 of 287)
Edited Apr 2, 2007 12:06 pm

if someone "pulls out" a memory and places it into a Pensieve, is that memory then erased from the person's mind until it is retrieved and put back in

Madam Pince, I've often wondered about this. When Dumbledore has looked at his memories in the Pensieve, they still seem to be in his mind. Yet Snape appears to have removed a memory from his mind so that Harry could not get to it. But could that be wrong? Is it possible that he wanted Harry to see that memory but thought that Harry lacked the skill to penetrate that far into his mind ... so he put it where Harry would be sure to snoop and find it? (Would Dumbledore have told him about Harry's ventures into the Pensieve?)

There seems to be a conflict here. If Snape knew that the memory put into the Pensieve was still in his mind, then why did he put it there? OR ... if the memories in the Pensieve are actually removed from one's mind while they are in the Pensieve, then were the actual memories Dumbledore placed in the Pensieve officially removed from his brain? If so, are they still in the Pensieve, assuming he had not replaced them before he was killed?

I know this belongs on a different thread, so feel free to respond to it on the Pensieve thread.

Solitaire

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Solitaire - Apr 2, 2007 6:54 pm (#189 of 287)
Edited Apr 2, 2007 7:56 pm

I posted this over on the Pensieve thread (here is the link to the actual post), if anyone wants to answer it there.

Solitaire

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

CrotonaPark44 - May 14, 2007 2:53 pm (#190 of 287)

If Trelawney were an authentic Sybill, her Inner Eye would be channeling her prophecies while she is in a trance state (sometimes induced by mind altering substances--such as alcohol)

Trelawney may not own the memory of her prophecy. She was just a conduit for someone else's voice speaking thru her to Dumbledore at the Hog's Head.

But does Voldemort know this? And if so, does he care?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madame Pomfrey - May 14, 2007 5:24 pm (#191 of 287)

If he does know, I doubt he cares. He will probably do what he did to Bertha Jorkins to retrieve the Prophecy memory. I think there is a very good chance that Voldemort already has her, poor Sybill. The last we saw her Harry had left her pretty close to the RoR. If the original task was to kidnap Trelawney then why did Draco throw her out of the RoR? Sybill told Harry it was dark and she could not see Draco, so perhaps Draco did not realize it was Trelawney. After Harry set off to Dumbledore's office Draco could have grabbed her then. The cabinet was repaired so he could have had help.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

CrotonaPark44 - May 14, 2007 6:16 pm (#192 of 287)

I fear you may be right, Madame Pomfrey

But it's sad to think that Sybill may be one of the characters who will not live to reach the end of Deathly Hallows.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

CrotonaPark44 - May 18, 2007 5:41 pm (#193 of 287)

My contribution to the Book 7 Theories collection:

IF Voldy has captured Sybill, and IF she goes into another trance, LV may misinterpret what the Inner Eye reveals and make a fatal error that will bring about his downfall.

It gives the Potter Saga symmetry. The story begins with Voldemort acting on Sybill's original prophecy and getting unexpected results. And now the story concludes with Voldy acting on Sybill's 3rd prophecy and getting zapped by Harry.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

journeymom - May 18, 2007 7:59 pm (#194 of 287)

I like it, Crotona.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madame Pomfrey - May 19, 2007 11:13 am (#195 of 287)

So do I!! BTW, What would be the point of Voldemort hearing the entire prophecy? He missed the part "having powers the Dark Lord knows not" and “Either must die...etc. He already has tried to kill Harry and he cannot do a thing about the power of Love, so perhaps he will interpret "by the hand of the other" differently. What say you?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - May 22, 2007 2:07 pm (#196 of 287)

But it's sad to think that Sybill may be one of the characters who will not live to reach the end of Deathly Hallows. - CrotonaPark44

I agree. I thought Severus was the one to get the reprieve, but perhaps JKR never intended him to die (or he's for sure a gonner) and Sybill is the one with the reprieve...I hope! I really like your idea about Vold hearing the third prophecy and acting on it to his demise. This thread is full of ideas about Draco's task getting Sybill into the cabinet, and your conclusion fits in well with that speculation.

Regarding the "by the hand of the other", I think Vold will interpret it literally but will in fact die "by the hand" in a roundabout manner.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madam Pince - May 22, 2007 7:07 pm (#197 of 287)

I really dislike that "...either must die by the hand of the other." It doesn't sound right to me. I want it to be "...one must die by the hand of the other." Someone speculated once that "the other" is somebody totally different from either Harry or Voldy -- "...either must die by the hand of Person X." That would be an interesting twist, but it would mean that Dumbledore totally misinterpreted what he heard...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

frogface - May 23, 2007 9:42 am (#198 of 287)
Edited May 23, 2007 10:44 am

The wording in that wouldn't really make sense though. It would have to be "One must die at the hand of another..." Personally, I think that Dumbledore's interpretation was 100% correct. I think the only revalation will come from how Harry manages to vanquish Voldemort. Also don't forget the begining of the Prophecy "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches, born as the 7th month dies" yadayadayada. (Sorry about the paraphrasing - its been a long day!) So this suggests to me that JKR worded the Prophecy so carefully because she wanted it be clear that Harry, and only Harry can beat Voldemort.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madam Pince - May 23, 2007 9:55 am (#199 of 287)

It could work if there's some sentence in there in the prophecy that got erased out somehow. There are ...'s both before and after that sentence, which could mean things were skipped. If the sentence before said something like, oh, I don't know... "There is a person known as The Other who is worse than Grindelwald, and ..."

It's reaching, I know. You're probably right.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - May 23, 2007 4:32 pm (#200 of 287)

Madam Pince, I agree with your subtle but crucial possibility -- we might read the prophecy as "...at the hand of the Other" in which Other refers to a third person. This is a classic riddle phenomenon which is not at all uncommon -- change a word ever so slightly and it changes everything. This to me is especially possible because many of us believe Harry will not be doing any killing, that no one will die at his hand, coupled with the fact that DD pointed out Peter (complete with curse-resistant silver Hand) owes Harry a life debt and is already a killer.

Lady Arabella Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:37 pm

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

CrotonaPark44 - May 24, 2007 3:35 pm (#201 of 287)

Going way out a a very shakey limb here: "and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives."

I nominate Neville Longbottom as The Other--the other boy born at the end of July to a wizarding family who have thrice defied the Dark Lord.

I predict Neville will be one of the major good guys to die in Deathly Hallows, but his consciously chosen sacrifice will enable Harry to defeat Voldemort and save the wizarding world.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

zelmia - Jun 15, 2007 10:25 am (#202 of 287)

This Thread suddenly seems to be about The Prophecy and no longer about Malfoy's Task and the Vow. How'd that happen?

# **************************************************

There is one thing, at least, that is certain about Draco's assignment: At least part his mission must have been to provide access for other Death Eaters into Hogwarts itself.
And Draco seems to have planned for this pretty much immediately. The Trio follow him to Borgin and Burkes - even before the term has actually started. They overhear Draco demanding from Borgin how to fix the complementary-but-broken cabinet (in the RoR); and ordering Borgin not to sell the one in the shop.

We can also conclude that Fenrir Greyback was always part of that portion of the mission, since Draco threatens Borgin with Fenrir Greyback, whom Draco describes as "an old family friend", coming into Borgin's shop periodically to check on things.

I think it's also pretty safe to conclude that Draco's mission was always going to be to kill Dumbledore. If this were not so, Narcissa would never have been so frantic about Draco's obvious inability to follow through. "Not even the Dark Lord himself has been able to..." she acknowledges.

Dumbledore left Hogwarts several times during the year in HBP, as I recall, sometimes to Harry's annoyance. (At one point, doesn't Harry wait for hours outside Dumbledore's office for Dumbledore to return?) But I agree that on that final night, Dumbledore must have felt that he had everything in place for a confrontation; that he and the Order were as ready as they would ever be.
He was also running out of time. It was already the end of the school year and no serious attempt/attack had yet come. It was going to happen at any moment and I agree that Dumbledore likely chose that particular night to be the night by making such a meal of his departure.

I do strongly hope that the opening chapters of DH will go right to Snape and the aftermath of the Tower incident.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Solitaire - Jun 15, 2007 10:55 am (#203 of 287)
Edited Jun 15, 2007 11:56 am

It's interesting that Draco calls Fenrir Greyback "an old family friend" to Mr. Borgin when one considers this exchange among Fenrir, Draco, and Dumbledore on the Tower:

“...I am a little shocked that Draco here invited you, of all people, into the school where his friends live ..."
“I didn’t,” breathed Malfoy. He was not looking at Fenrir; he did not seem to want to even glance at him. "I didn't know he was going to come--"

Draco doesn't seem too friendly toward Greyback at that particular moment, does he? It makes me wonder why he invoked Greyback's name to Borgin.

Solitaire

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

zelmia - Jun 15, 2007 11:35 am (#204 of 287)
Edited Jun 15, 2007 12:38 pm

Good point, Solitaire. Clearly Draco was either lying to Borgin - which is more likely, in my opinion - or to Dumbledore. Draco may simply have invoked Greyback to Borgin, after revealing his own newly-acquired Death Eater status to Borgin, as an empty threat.

On the other hand Draco may not have fully realised the sheer depravity of such a being as Greyback, who apparently wantonly preyed specifically upon children. Draco may have believed that, now that they were fellow Death Eaters, that he and his friends would be immune from such horrors.

Narcissa was right about one thing: Draco being "only 16". And we can see from these closing chapters that Draco has actually had a pretty sheltered life - for all his parents' dark doings. He clearly had no idea what he was getting into, and marched blindly in with a smile on his face. His mum, on the other hand, knew all too well.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

TwinklingBlueEyes - Jun 15, 2007 12:50 pm (#205 of 287)

Maybe similar circumstances as Regulas Black huh? Similar to real-world movements and recruiting, Nazi, Brownshirt, gangs, (I'll stop here). Fame and glory aimed at the young and dumb, er, inexperienced.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madame Pomfrey - Jun 15, 2007 1:53 pm (#206 of 287)
Edited Jun 15, 2007 2:54 pm

Maybe Fenrir, as ordered by Voldemort, had an order to check on things and Draco used this knowledge as a threat. I do not think for a moment that he is an old family friend. I don't think Narcissa would allow him anywhere near her only child.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

journeymom - Jun 19, 2007 12:54 am (#207 of 287)

TBE, I like that parallel to Regulas Black.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Erika Gryffindor - Jun 20, 2007 8:28 am (#208 of 287)

By “Old family friend” Draco could have been referring to his Death Eater family, and not his mum or dad.

Of course he will use it to threaten others, but no sir, I don't doubt for a second that Draco did not want him to be there. I would think he would be a little scared of Fenrir. To talk about him is one thing, to be in his presence is another...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Mrs Brisbee - Jun 20, 2007 8:39 am (#209 of 287)
Edited Jun 20, 2007 9:39 am

By “Old family friend” Draco could have been referring to his Death Eater family, and not his mum or dad.-- Erika Gryffindor

That makes a lot of sense, Erika. Draco has just been inducted into the Death Eaters, his new "crime family", sort of like gangs or the Mafia would be considered "family". Works for me!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

TwinklingBlueEyes - Jun 21, 2007 7:46 am (#210 of 287)

By “Old family friend” Draco could have been referring to his Death Eater family, and not his mum or dad.

Or maybe even through his mom and dad they became "old family"?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Jun 21, 2007 8:24 am (#211 of 287)

But would Mr. Borgin necessarily know that Draco was now a DE? I think Borgin would be very familiar with the Malfoy family, but not so much with Draco's DE family, thus I tend to think Fenrir is a Malfoy family "friend". Although, I would bet it is more of an acquaintance thing than a true friendship. Lucius Malfoy is too "snooty" to hang around with a low-life werewolf who preys on children.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Erika Gryffindor - Jun 21, 2007 8:28 am (#212 of 287)
Edited Jun 21, 2007 9:28 am

In that scene in the book, doesn't the narrator tell us that Draco SHOWS something to Borgin? I thought he was showing him his death eater mark. Then proceeded with the Fenrir quote?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Jun 21, 2007 8:45 am (#213 of 287)

We are not told exactly what it was that Draco showed Mr. Borgin. It could very well be the Dark Mark or as some have speculated, it could be a werewolf bite. Whatever it was, it frightened Borgin.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Mediwitch - Jun 21, 2007 8:46 am (#214 of 287)
Edited Jun 21, 2007 11:14 am

I think Draco would play up the "family friend" role even if it weren't exactly true. I mean, he's not going to say to Borgin, "You know Fenrir Greyback? Well, my dad's a Death Eater with him, so I'll have him check up on you for me." I think this is what he was alluding to (everyone knew Lucius was in Azkaban for the MoM incident) with the "family friend" comment.

EDIT: "family fiend" LOL Spitting Out Drink 2

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Jun 21, 2007 9:18 am (#215 of 287)

I agree Mediwitch - I think Draco was stretching the truth a bit with the "family friend" comment. Fenrir is more like a "family fiend" than anything. LOL

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

zelmia - Jun 21, 2007 11:14 am (#216 of 287)

I think it's pretty clear that Draco showed Borgin his Dark Mark tattoo. This would really be the only way for Draco to convince Borgin that he was "deathly" serious. Certainly Borgin's manner became much more deferential, despite his obvious dislike for Draco.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

zelmia - Jun 22, 2007 1:33 pm (#217 of 287)
Edited Jun 22, 2007 2:35 pm

Something else: When Harry overhears Draco and Snape's conversation (HBP - The Unbreakable Vow), Draco tells Snape that he doesn't need Snape's help, nor does he need to rely any longer on the Oafish Duo, Crabbe and Goyle, because "I have others [who are working with me]."

Again it strikes me that Draco's "help" was always meant to include Greyback, et al. I think part of the reason for Draco's reluctance to admit his association with Greyback to Dumbledore may have been that (a) he really didn't know Greyback was going to be part of the assault on Hogwarts. Draco may have been told that throwing Greyback's name around to people like Borgin would help... facilitate... his task. But Draco may not have known or expected that Greyback would actually be part of the assault team.

Or (b) He did know that Greyback would be part of the team, but he simply had no idea what Greyback would really do. Until that night on the tower, Draco had never been in a genuine life-and-death battle. Certainly, he had never seen anyone die (He could not see the Thestrals in OotP. And though he may have been able to see them in HBP, JKR does not give us any indication to think that anything has changed in that regard). Once the battle at Hogwarts starts, Draco sees it for what it really is: Very wicked people attacking - and killing - children; Draco's friends and classmates. For all his bravado, Draco is still very much a boy. "You are thinking like a child" Snape admonishes him, but to no effect. Six months later, Draco may have realised what Snape meant.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madame Pomfrey - Jul 2, 2007 2:25 pm (#218 of 287)

Regarding Draco's task, I do not think Dumbledore knew from Snape what Malfoy was up to. I think Harry clued him in and Draco, himself, filled in the rest. One thing that I noticed is that Dumbledore told Draco that he did not dare confront him about his mission in case Voldemort was using legilimency against him. Why did not Snape tell Dumbledore that Draco was now an accomplished occlumens? I say accomplished because he did manage to block Snape and Snape asked him what thoughts he was trying to conceal from his master. Another thing is the vow, I still am not sure if Dumbledore knew about it other than what Harry overheard.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

MickeyCee3948 - Jul 2, 2007 7:53 pm (#219 of 287)

Another point concerning Snape's comment about what thoughts he was trying to conceal from his master. WHO's the Master? Snape or Tom, Since Draco was talking to Snape and not Tom. Perhaps Snape tells us a little of his desire to be the real master. Not to follow the half -blood Tom.

Mickey

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

zelmia - Jul 2, 2007 8:47 pm (#220 of 287)

Good point, Mickey. Personally I always read that passage as Snape referring to himself with that title, which Draco overtly snubs. But perhaps they were both talking about Voldemort the whole time.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Jul 3, 2007 5:23 am (#221 of 287)
Edited Jul 3, 2007 6:24 am

Regarding Draco's task, I do not think Dumbledore knew from Snape what Malfoy was up to. I think Harry clued him in and Draco, himself, filled in the rest. One thing that I noticed is that Dumbledore told Draco that he did not dare confront him about his mission in case Voldemort was using legilimency against him. Why did not Snape tell Dumbledore that Draco was now an accomplished occlumens? I say accomplished because he did manage to block Snape and Snape asked him what thoughts he was trying to conceal from his master. Another thing is the vow, I still am not sure if Dumbledore knew about it other than what Harry overheard. (Madame Pomfrey)

Draco isn't an accomplished occlumens and he can't necessarily block Snape completely in a concerted attack. Snape, by the way, has never been presented as an "accomplished" legilimens, just a superb occlumens.

First, Snape may not want to press Draco with a concerted attempt at legilimency, because it could make Snape seem to be going against Draco's master (the Dark Lord?). Or, it could be that Draco does know enough occlumency to repel Snape. But that only means Snape isn't nearly as good at legilimency as he is at occlumency.

My point is that Draco probably isn't an "accomplished" occlumens and probably couldn't repel Voldemort at all. Repelling Snape is no evidence that Draco can stand up against Voldemort, who has no need to hold back at all and could use all of his forces of legilimency against Draco.

So Snape wouldn't be expected to tell Dumbledore that Draco is so good at occlumency that he could keep his thoughts from Voldemort, because that almost certainly isn't even true.

Harry, by the way, had no idea what Draco's task was and therefore couldn't "clue in" Dumbledore. Draco didn't tell Dumbledore anything until the end. So how did Dumbledore know if it wasn't from Harry or Draco directly?

I don't necessarily think Snape initially had any definite knowledge of what Draco's task was. My guess is that Dumbledore simply surmised Draco's task by virtue of looking at the earlier attacks which nearly got 2 students killed, and realizing that these were actually to be attacks on Dumbledore's life.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

mona amon - Jul 3, 2007 6:08 am (#222 of 287)

I think Snape, and consequently Dumbledore, did know what the task was, that Voldemort himself gave Snape the information, and instructed him to accomplish the task himself in the very likely event of Draco failing. In other words, I believe that what he tells Narcissa in Spinner's End is more or less true.

What they did not know was how Draco was planning to accomplish the task, so naturally they were very worried, especially when Draco's misdirected efforts almost result in the death of two students.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Paul Potter - Jul 3, 2007 8:58 am (#223 of 287)
Edited Jul 3, 2007 10:57 am

I was wondering if Dumbledore, who was able to see that Harry was going to the ROR to see the Mirror Of Erised, could possibly have known what Draco was doing in the ROR?

Edit: Sorry I think it may have been a disused Classroom. I just assumed it was the ROR as it just says It looked like an unused classroom. Harry needed somewhere to hide and a door was open.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Hagsquid - Jul 3, 2007 9:28 am (#224 of 287)

Was Harry going to RoR to see the Mirror? I didn't catch that...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

zelmia - Jul 3, 2007 10:28 am (#225 of 287)
Edited Jul 3, 2007 11:30 am

...Voldemort himself gave Snape the information, and instructed him to accomplish the task himself in the very likely event of Draco failing.

I don't agree there. Voldemort set Draco the task of killing Dumbledore - specifically because he knew Draco would fail - to punish Lucius (and, in my opinion, in order to remind Lucius of his place). Voldemort, who has never been able to defeat Dumbledore himself, neither expects nor wants Draco to succeed. That fact that Draco was actually able to pull it off is a big fat bonus for Voldemort.

Having Snape finish the job would destroy Snape's ability to report to Voldemort on the Order. It appears at this point that it was Dumbledore himself who instructed Snape to accomplish the task for Draco; to fulfill his obligation according to the Vow.

Lady Arabella Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:39 pm

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Hagsquid - Jul 3, 2007 10:52 am (#226 of 287)

I agree. There is no evidence that Voldemort ever told Snape about the task at hand. We only have the scene where Snape tells mama Malfoy that this is the case, and Snape could very well have been lying using legilimacy to extract the needed info.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Madame Pomfrey - Jul 3, 2007 12:31 pm (#227 of 287)

Wynnleaf, Don't you find it a little odd that Dumbledore told Draco that he had Snape watching him, yet he didn't tell Dumbledore about the occlumency lessons with Bella? I am desperately trying to trap Snape and you keep blocking me.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

mona amon - Jul 3, 2007 7:21 pm (#228 of 287)
Edited Jul 3, 2007 8:23 pm

That fact that Draco was actually able to pull it off is a big fat bonus for Voldemort. (Zelmia)

But Draco was not able to pull it off! Or am I misunderstanding something?

We only have the scene where Snape tells mama Malfoy that this is the case, and Snape could very well have been lying using legilimacy to extract the needed info. (Hagsquid)

While it’s OK for Snape to lie to the sisters about his loyalties etc, and other things which cannot be proved, it would have been very risky to lie about what Voldemort had said to him. Bellatrix might mention it in passing the next time she's with Voldemort, and then he'll be in deep trouble. It's more likely that he's telling the truth, but softened a little, as he wouldn't want to tell Narcissa that Voldemort more or less felt that Draco was a goner.

Having Snape finish the job would destroy Snape's ability to report to Voldemort on the Order. (Zelmia)

That is true. But I feel that at this point it was more important to Voldemort to have Dumbledore killed (so that he could go ahead with his plans of taking over the Wizarding World), than to have a spy in the order.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

zelmia - Jul 3, 2007 9:05 pm (#229 of 287)
Edited Jul 3, 2007 10:08 pm

When I said that Draco was able to "pull it off" I was assuming that implicit in the Vow is a certain amount of secrecy. Voldemort may not be aware that it was not actually Draco who pulled the trigger.
I could be wrong. But what does seem clear is that at least part of the Task was for Draco to enable the Death Eaters to invade the school. After all he went straight to Borgin and Burke's to inquire about the Cabinet already bandying Fenrir Greyback's name about.

As for Snape's cover being blown, well that doesn't really seem to matter too much if Dumbledore isn't around anymore. But originally Voldemort didn't expect Draco to kill Dumbledore; and it seems Draco's "team" was forbidden to take over if Draco failed. Again, Voldemort wanted Draco to fail. And as long as Dumbledore remained alive - which is what Voldemort expected - he would still need Snape.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Hagsquid - Jul 3, 2007 10:00 pm (#230 of 287)
Edited Jul 3, 2007 11:01 pm

Bellatrix might mention it in passing the next time she's with Voldemort, and then he'll be in deep trouble.

Can't. She and Narcissa weren't supposed to be at Snape's, and Snape knew that.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wynnleaf - Jul 4, 2007 1:33 pm (#231 of 287)
Edited Jul 4, 2007 2:33 pm

Wynnleaf, Don't you find it a little odd that Dumbledore told Draco that he had Snape watching him,yet he didn't tell Dumbledore about the occlumency lessons with Bella? I am desperatly trying to trap Snape and you keep blocking me. (Madame Pomfrey)

Do we know that Snape didn't tell Dumbledore about the occlumency lessons? Lessons with Bella really wouldn't make any difference to Dumbledore not wanting Draco to give up information to LV under legilimency. Remember, lessons with Bella does not make Draco a master occlumens. And he'd have to be a master at it to keep information from Voldemort.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

mona amon - Jul 4, 2007 7:44 pm (#232 of 287)

Can't. She and Narcissa weren't supposed to be at Snape's, and Snape knew that. (Hagsquid)

They were not supposed to be there chatting about the task, but I'm sure they were free to visit Snape if they wanted to. If not, well,' the rat' saw them there, but none of them seemed worried about it.

Voldemort may not be aware that it was not actually Draco who pulled the trigger. (Zelmia)

In that case Snape should have done it secretly. But he chooses a moment when there are several Death Eater witnesses to carry the tale back to Voldemort. One or two were captured I think, but Alecto and Amycus escaped and would have told Voldemort that it was Snape and not Draco who killed Dumbledore.

But what does seem clear is that at least part of the Task was for Draco to enable the Death Eaters to invade the school.

I always felt that Voldemort told Draco to do only one thing - kill Dumbledore. Narcissa refers to it as 'the deed' in the last part of the Vow. Letting the Death Eaters in I feel was Draco's own idea, he needed them for back up and moral support. He does try to kill Dumbledore on his own, through indirect methods, when he gets doubts about whether he will ever be able to repair the cabinet.

And as long as Dumbledore remained alive - which is what Voldemort expected - he would still need Snape.

I feel Voldemort did want Dumbledore dead, and that this was his priority ever since the MoM battle at the end of OOTP, and Snape was his man for the job. Dumbledore and Snape would always have known that someday Snape would be ordered to do this, and must have been prepared. But when Voldemort decides that Draco should try first, that must have been an unexpected complication for them.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

zelmia - Jul 5, 2007 1:39 am (#233 of 287)
Edited Jul 5, 2007 2:40 am

You make very good points Mona. I confess that I couldn't remember if there were any witnesses (apart from Harry) who observed Snape doing the AK. I thought I remembered that the OP came through about that time and distracted whoever was there.

But I do think that Draco was meant to create a breech in Hogwarts security as well. Draco tells Snape "I've got others to help me". To me this implies that the "others" were always part of the plan. For that to happen, Draco needed to find a way for them to get in.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Hagsquid - Jul 5, 2007 10:23 am (#234 of 287)

They were not supposed to be there chatting about the task, but I'm sure they were free to visit Snape if they wanted to. If not, well, 'the rat' saw them there, but none of them seemed worried about it. (mona amon)

Fair point. Okay. "Can't. She and Narcissa weren't supposed to be chatting about the deed with Snape, and Snape knew that."

Razz

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

mona amon - Jul 5, 2007 7:19 pm (#235 of 287)

!

But I'm not ready to say Touché! yet.

Bella can mention to Voldemort that it was Snape who told her that he knew about the task, which is actually true. She wasn't the one who was chatting about the task, and she wouldn't care about getting Snape into trouble.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

MickeyCee3948 - Jul 5, 2007 7:35 pm (#236 of 287)

Supposedly she would care about getting her sister in trouble though mona amon.

Mickey

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

zelmia - Jul 5, 2007 8:45 pm (#237 of 287)

One would normally assume that someone in Narcissa's position wouldn't mention to Voldemort having discussed the Task with Snape. As Bella points out to her, she and Bella were "forbidden to speak of it to anyone". Apart from anything else, talking about it with Snape falls in the category of "not following directions" which is apparently how Lucius ticked Voldemort off in the first place.

Personally, I wouldn't guess that she'd be particularly concerned with getting either Snape or Bella in trouble with their Dark Lord; but she may not wish to get herself or especially Draco in any more hot water.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

mona amon - Jul 6, 2007 4:29 am (#238 of 287)

Supposedly she would care about getting her sister in trouble though. (Mickey)

Bella does not have to mention that her sister was there!

But seriously, I don't believe any of them (Snape, Bella and Narcissa) are going to tell on each other. I was just making an attempt to prove that Snape was telling the truth when he told the sisters that he knew about the task.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Solitaire - Jul 6, 2007 7:57 am (#239 of 287)
Edited Jul 6, 2007 8:58 am

As Bella is involved in the business (being the bonder), it is to her advantage to keep her mouth shut on this one, I think. She has already ticked off Voldemort sufficiently with the DoM business and the Lost Prophecy ... don't you think?

Solitaire

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jul 6, 2007 9:00 am (#240 of 287)
Edited Jul 6, 2007 10:00 am

Have to disagree with a few points made over the past few posts:

1) Killing DD is not the only thing LV hasn't been able to do, he has also never been able to get into Hogwarts (except as Quirrelmort)

2) Sending Draco and a bunch of DEs to fail makes no sense. Many of LV's DEs are in prison, why send a bunch more to fail? He doesn't have an endless supply. LV did intend to accomplish something that night, IMO, and sending a message to Lucius seems a waste of a bunch of DEs, yet trusting Draco to kill DD seems equally foolhardy. Something more had to be going on.

3) Draco is a coward and a braggart, I believe him when he said he didn't know Fenrir was coming. I think he was lying to Borgin. By the time on the tower, he was, as is mentioned, seemingly unable to stop himself from telling DD the truth about everything, and his terror seemed genuine.

4) Killing DD isn't the only thing that could upset Narcissa to the point we saw her in Spinner's end. Breaching Hogwarts was dangerous, one DE died and another was captured.

5) Snape was threatening to give Harry detention into the following year, if he really knew either he or Draco had to kill DD by year's end, would he make this threat?

JM2K

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Jul 6, 2007 10:21 am (#241 of 287)

T Vrana - "Breaching Hogwarts was dangerous, one DE died and another was captured."

Is there canon evidence that one was captured? I know one died, but I do not remember the MOM saying they had one in custody.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jul 6, 2007 10:32 am (#242 of 287)

Scrimgeour told Harry they retrieved the guy on the tower, didn't he? When he said they knew there was someone on the tower with DD.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Jul 6, 2007 11:08 am (#243 of 287)
Edited Jul 6, 2007 12:09 pm

Harry and Scrimgeour speaking.....

“The word is that you were with him when he left the school the night that he died.”

“Whose word?” said Harry.

“Somebody Stupefied a Death Eater on top of the tower after Dumbledore died. There were also two broomsticks up there. The Ministry can add two and two, Harry.”

I don't know what happened to the stunned DE, but I would think if Scrimgeour had him in custody he would brag about it. They have poor, innocent Stan Shunpike locked up and are desperate to look like they are catching the criminals associated with Voldemort. Scrimgeour never actually says anyone is locked up from the Hogwarts invasion and battle.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jul 6, 2007 11:54 am (#244 of 287)
Edited Jul 6, 2007 12:56 pm

How would he know a DE was stupefied if the DE wasn't still there? And who would have released the DE? Harry was the last one off the tower. I can see them knowing when a spell is cast, but how would they know it was against a DE?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Solitaire - Jul 6, 2007 12:37 pm (#245 of 287)

”The Ministry can add two and two, Harry.”

Well, there's a point that is debatable! LOL Now I am wondering if the Ministry--in all their insightful brilliance--will charge Harry with the death of the DE. I'm wondering if Snape did it ...

Good point, T Vrana ... although I suppose he could have been given this information by an Auror.

Solitaire

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

me and my shadow 813 - Jul 6, 2007 1:13 pm (#246 of 287)
Edited Jul 6, 2007 2:15 pm

Also, a lot of information could have been given by Bloody Baron. I don't think it was idle chit chat that Nick told Harry the Baron spends a lot of time up there. He could have witnessed the entire scene, perhaps with DD's knowledge and even Severus's. Since he's Slytherin house ghost, he might give witness to what occurred whether working for or secretly against the DE's.

On another subject, I think it might be possible Myrtle will be important in Harry finding out what Malfoy's original task was. In Unknowable Room chapter Harry asks her "There's been a boy crying in here?" and she says "I promised I wouldn't tell anyone and I'll take his secret to the - "

I've always felt Myrtle will have some important role in book 7 since she was Vold's first victim and has taken it upon herself to help Harry. I suppose this idea relies on Harry returning to Hogwarts - or the lake!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jul 6, 2007 1:14 pm (#247 of 287)
Edited Jul 6, 2007 2:15 pm

Solitaire-That there was a stupefied DE on the tower? But then, the Auror lifted the spell and the DE got away? Now I'm confused!

I have assumed that the DE Harry stupefied was still there and was found and detained, and under interrogation revealed that he had been stupefied by an unknown assailant after Dumbledore's death. If the DE got away. How? And how did Scrimgeour know there was a DE stupefied after DD's death?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Jul 6, 2007 1:14 pm (#248 of 287)

How would he know a DE was stupefied if the DE wasn't still there?

Now that I can't answer for certain. Perhaps they know who all was on the tower, Snape, Draco, and Harry are accounted for, as is Dumbledore. That leaves only DE's - they (MOM) detected the Stupefy Spell and figured it had to be on a DE since it wasn't on Snape, Draco, Harry (Dumbledore stupefied Harry) or Dumbledore. Perhaps the spell wore off and the DE escaped before the MOM Aurors got there. That's my best guess, such as it is.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jul 6, 2007 1:17 pm (#249 of 287)

On the Bloody Baron, good possibility, but then, why wouldn't the Baron say it was Harry on the tower? Why tell the rest of the tale, and not reveal Harry's presence?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jul 6, 2007 1:23 pm (#250 of 287)
Edited Jul 6, 2007 2:24 pm

Choices- Harry wasn't accounted for, thus the question from Scrimgeuor. He's guessing that Harry was on the Tower. Harry is not confirming. So we know none of the Order told Scrimgeour of Harry's presense. Scrimgeour is guessing based on:

1) Harry's relationship with DD

2) Two brooms

3) A stupefied DE. But once again, how did he know a DE was stupefied? And does it wear off?

Lady Arabella Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:42 pm

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Jul 6, 2007 2:05 pm (#251 of 287)

T Vrana - "...how did he know a DE was stupefied?"

Can't the MOM detect spells? Also, I think Scrimgeour pretty well knows that Harry was there on the tower. He says that the DE was Stupefied AFTER Dumbledore died. That only leaves Harry who would have Stupefied a DE. I guess he assumes that one DE wouldn't Stupefy another DE.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

MickeyCee3948 - Jul 6, 2007 3:33 pm (#252 of 287)

Questioning Madame Rosmerta will verify that Harry was with Dumbledore when he returned to Hogsmeade. They probably did talk to her after she was decursed.

Mickey

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jul 6, 2007 3:45 pm (#253 of 287)

Choices- Looking back, it was actually Petrificus Totalus that Harry used on the Brutal Faced DE. Given that Harry said that DD's Petrificus only lifted when DD 'died', I assume it is a spell that does not lift on its own. Also, Harry remained petrified until released by Tonks on the train. Also, Harry notes the departure of the other DE's, Big blond, Amyscus and Alecto, etc. , but never mentions Brutal face after the tower. I think it is most likely that the MOM has Brutal Face, and that is howwo they know a DE was hit with a spell 'Post DD'. Fenrir wasn't mentioned, but he left the tower before Harry.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jul 6, 2007 3:46 pm (#254 of 287)

LOL! Rosmerta! I wonder if she remembers what happened whle Imperiused?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Jul 6, 2007 5:48 pm (#255 of 287)
Edited Jul 6, 2007 6:51 pm

Harry refers to the charm Dumbledore used on him as a Freezing Charm. You are correct that Harry uses Petrificus Totalus on the brutal faced DE who was last to leave the tower. Harry tells the group in the hospital wing later that Dumbledore immobilized him - he doesn't name the spell used. Since there are several charms which seem to "freeze" a wizard - Freezing Charm (Hermione used one to stop the Cornish Pixies and get them back in their cage in COS), Stupefy, Petrificus Totalus, etc. and since it doesn't specifically state which was used (except the one on the DE by Harry) perhaps Petrificus is one that could just wear off. When Hermione uses Petrificus Totalus on Neville in PS/SS, I think he was up and OK when they got back (we never heard otherwise). Did it wear off or was it lifted by someone? I don't know.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jul 6, 2007 6:19 pm (#256 of 287)

Didn't Malfoy use Petificus Totalus on Harry? He needed to be released. I always assumed Neville was found and released.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Jul 6, 2007 6:24 pm (#257 of 287)

Draco did get Harry with Petrificus Totalus and Tonks did release him. My question is - if she hadn't released him, would the spell have just worn off? There's just so darn much we don't know about these spells. :-(

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Solitaire - Jul 6, 2007 7:12 pm (#258 of 287)

My question is - if she hadn't released him, would the spell have just worn off?

Choices, I've wondered that myself. I wonder ... does the length of time a spell "sticks" reflect the power and strength of the Wizard? Would Malfoy's spell have been as powerful if Harry had been ready for it rather than being taken totally off-guard? If Hermione's Petrificus Totalus on Neville did wear off, I wonder if it was because she was younger and less experienced ... and whether one she cast now would have more "teeth" to it. I agree, Choices ... there is a lot we do not know.

Solitaire

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jul 7, 2007 5:03 am (#259 of 287)

Malfoy was confident Harry would not be found until the train reached London, a trip of several hours. I have to trust that Draco, born and raised in a wizarding family, and nearing legal wizard age, knows whether Pertificus Totalus wears off. Also, Harry never questions, even to himself, whether Draco's assertion is valid. I think by post 5th year at Hogwarts this would be a known quantity.

Add to this that Scrimgeour knows a DE was hit with a freezing charm post DD's 'death', and that Harry never saw Brutal Face exit the gate with his pals, and I am convinced it is most likely that Brutal Face was detained. Not 100%, but most likely.

With the magical power of Hogwarts, and all those spells being cast at the base of the tower, can the MOM really isolate one spell cast at the top? If this is the case, why don't Aurors appear at the site of any AK being cast? Why isn't there a squad of Aurors watching this 'report' for an AK , then appearing and capturing LV after he killed James Potter, and before Lily or the attempt on Harry? I think Harry's run-ins with the MoM may be based more on DD's assertion that Harry has been watched, more closely than he can imagine, otherwise it makes no sense that the MoM has this power and doesn't use it to stop LV.

JM2K

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

legolas returns - Jul 7, 2007 8:17 am (#260 of 287)
Edited Jul 7, 2007 9:18 am

Nobody can apparate within the grounds unless the magic has been removed from an area, e.g the great hall for apparition practice when the weather was bad. The only one with power to remove the anti-apparition seems to be Dumbledore.

It says in Book 6 that the caster of a spell could not be detected within a house if it was a magical family. Parental discipline is supposed to keep children in line and prevent them from doing magic. In Harry’s case he is the only magical person in the household so he could be detected doing magic or blamed for somebody else’s magic.

Hogwarts is an all- magical dwelling and magic could not be detected by muggles as it is hidden by enchantments. In addition there are bound to be loads of spells cast in the place

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Solitaire - Jul 7, 2007 10:15 am (#261 of 287)

Why isn't there a squad of Aurors watching this 'report' for an AK , then appearing and capturing LV after he killed James Potter, and before Lily or the attempt on Harry?

Don't the Ministry personnel just detect "inappropriate" magic ... that is, magic performed where it shouldn't be performed? At GH, how would they be able to tell whether James, Lily, LV, or any other wizard present was casting the spells?

As to why the Aurors didn't just show up and nab Voldy, he says the following: "I was ripped from my body, I was less than spirit, less than the meanest ghost ..." How could an Auror have captured LV in such a form? Besides, I'm sure the "spirit" fled immediately, before an Auror could have hit the spot. This brings up another point: how would an Auror have found the house in GH, concealed as it was under a Fidelius Charm ... a situation which leads me to wonder how Muggles would have begun swarming around it (Hagrid's words?) if it was hidden under the F. Charm. I'm confused!

Solitaire

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jul 7, 2007 12:44 pm (#262 of 287)
Edited Jul 7, 2007 1:48 pm

Solitaire- LOL! An AK is very inappropriate! While they may have been allowed under Crouch, I would think in trying to track down LV, AK's would have been monitored if anything other than underage magic in the wrong place can be monitored. There was a space of time between LV's first AK, killing James, his second AK, killing Lily and his calamitous (for him) AK which made him less than ghost. Apparition is almost instantaneous. But I'm not arguing that such a thing is possible, rather that it isn't.

Legolas- Wasn't talking about apparating into Hogwarts, know that is impossible, but rather to other places AK's are cast....if the MoM can monitor every spell cast, it seems that there would be problems with Moody's Unforgivables, LV's AK's, Wormtail's AK in the graveyard etc. I tend to think Harry's unlawful use of magic is the result of special monitoring, perhaps all underage wizards who live in Muggle homes are monitored, or perhaps he is more closely watched as DD said. But I just don't accept that every spell is kept record of, or the battle at the MoM should also have raised a red flag.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Jul 7, 2007 2:56 pm (#263 of 287)
Edited Jul 7, 2007 3:58 pm

Soli - "how would an Auror have found the house in GH, concealed as it was under a Fidelius Charm ... a situation which leads me to wonder how Muggles would have begun swarming around it (Hagrid's words?) if it was hidden under the F. Charm. I'm confused!"

I have always thought that was probably the basis for the theory that a Fidelius Charm disappears once the subject/subjects of the charm are dead. So, was Harry not included in the charm? Were just James and Lily covered? So many infernal questions! LOL JKR needs to write seven more books - one for each of the HP books just to wrap up loose ends and answer the multitude of questions we all have.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Solitaire - Jul 7, 2007 4:37 pm (#264 of 287)

T Vrana, I guess I just wonder if the Ministry even bothers about checking magic where magical families live. I'm guessing that #4PD was monitored so closely because of what happened at GH. With regard to GH, if the house was under a Fidelius Charm--as we know it was--they would not be able to find it and apparate in anyway. We do not know how much time passed between the first AK (James) and the backfired AK ... it could have been as little as 1-2 minutes, and if Ministry reponse time was slow, well, they might not have responded for several minutes. Besides, I'm sure the Ministry was busy enough during that first war that they could not go to every spot where someone fired off an AK.

Solitaire

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jul 7, 2007 4:56 pm (#265 of 287)

Well, I agree....the same reasoning leads me to believe that they couldn't distinguish Harry's spell from the myriad that were being cast during the battle at the foot of the tower.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Jul 8, 2007 8:46 am (#266 of 287)

Perhaps they can monitor spells cast outside the walls of the castle, but don't bother with those cast inside the castle. Just speculating - I don't know - Jo will have to tell us.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Solitaire - Jul 8, 2007 9:31 am (#267 of 287)

If the Ministry knows about a spell being cast up in the tower from some way other than an Auror or someone who saw it ... then I wonder if they know about the Sectumsempra! spell that was cast by Harry. If they can "detect" one spell long-distance, why not every other spell?

Could someone else--someone we do not yet know about--have been on that tower, hiding?

Solitaire

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Hagsquid - Jul 8, 2007 9:41 am (#268 of 287)
Edited Jul 8, 2007 10:41 am

I still wonder why DD wasted his spell on freezing Harry. Harry was safely beneath the invisibility cloak, so there was probably no danger of Harry being hurt, and DD knew it; in fact, Harry could have helped DD out--not that he would have likely needed it if Malfoy hadn't gotten lucky.

Maybe there was another up there with them who did the freezing of Harry.

Why didn't DD just make himself invisible? Man. Questions galore. There's just no way that Malfoy could have bested DD up on that tower. We know DD to be a great wizard, and it seems that he lost on purpose--at least in my opinion.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jul 8, 2007 9:51 am (#269 of 287)
Edited Jul 8, 2007 10:52 am

Hagsquid-

I think DD needed Malfoy to learn he wasn't a killer, and wanted to give him the chance to choose the right side. For this to happen, Draco needed the opportunity to carry out the murder. If he had been stopped, he never would have known if was capable of murder, and would not have left LV by choice. Thus DD's mercy....

Harry would have intervened.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Solitaire - Jul 8, 2007 11:10 am (#270 of 287)

I still wonder why DD wasted his spell on freezing Harry.

I agree with T Vrana ... there is no way Harry would have stayed quiet and heard Malfoy out. And there is REALLY no way he would have stood still when Snape arrived on the scene. Dumbledore was saving Harry's life. Well, that's how I see it ...

Solitaire

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Hagsquid - Jul 8, 2007 11:24 am (#271 of 287)
Edited Jul 8, 2007 12:24 pm

You can't convince me that Malfoy, Snape, and the four others would have had a chance vs DD. He easily took out several DE's in the DoM in OP. I just don't think DD would have had a problem fighting all of them at the same time if he hadn't been disarmed (which could easily have been prevented.) Well... that's how I see it anyway.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

zelmia - Jul 8, 2007 11:42 am (#272 of 287)
Edited Jul 8, 2007 12:42 pm

Dumbledore was weakened by whatever potion he drank in the Cave, so weak in fact that he couldn't even apparate home. Harry had to do it. On the other hand, Dumbledore obviously didn't need his wand to "freeze" Harry (Harry feels the effects of the charm the second after the "expelliarmus" is cast) so he may not have needed it at all, should he have chosen a different tack.

But that's just it: Dumbledore chose not to fight. He needed Harry to witness what happened next, and he knew Harry wouldn't if Dumbledore allowed him free will for those moments.

But on the first hand, Snape (Rogue) is a pretty powerful wizard as well so, in his extremely weakened state, even Dumbledore may have had a hard time against him.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Hagsquid - Jul 8, 2007 11:55 am (#273 of 287)

I agree with zelmia. DD wasn't outdone, he wanted Harry to see the battle. I honestly think he expected to die at this point in the story, and he knew that Snape would kill him.

If this reasoning is correct, then the question remains whether Snape did it because DD made him, or because he was truly evil.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jul 8, 2007 1:43 pm (#274 of 287)

zelmia- Whether DD needs a wand to perform magic is up for debate, but I do think he still had his wand when Harry was frozen. When Expelliarmus was cast Harry felt the effects of the spell DD was casting, and was surprised as the spells didn't match. Spells take time to reach their target. They were cast almost simultaneously, and as DD's spell reached Harry, Malfoy's spell reached DD. Harry notes that DD casting the spell cost DD his wand.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Hagsquid - Jul 8, 2007 1:51 pm (#275 of 287)

But why was there not a jet of red light from DD to Harry?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jul 8, 2007 4:18 pm (#276 of 287)
Edited Jul 8, 2007 5:47 pm

No mention of red light when Hermione uses Petrificus Totalus on Neville, in SS, or, if I remember correctly, in HBP when Malfoy uses it on Harry. Do we have an example of red light with Petrificus?

Stupefy has a red light.

editted to add: Have found several examples of stupefy with a red light. No light with Petrificus Totalus.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Choices - Jul 8, 2007 4:57 pm (#277 of 287)
Edited Jul 8, 2007 6:05 pm

T Vrana - I think it is in the fight at the MOM in OotP that we see Stupefy used so much and so many examples of "flashes of red light". Stupefy renders the victim unconscious whereas Petrificus Totalus only immobilizes. There is no light associated with Petrificus Totalus. (Information from the HP Lexicon)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jul 8, 2007 5:31 pm (#278 of 287)

Thanks, Choices, that answers the question of what DD most likely used on Harry, Petrificus Totalus.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Hagsquid - Jul 8, 2007 7:16 pm (#279 of 287)

Yup. Mos' def' petrificus totalus. Good catch.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jul 8, 2007 7:51 pm (#280 of 287)

So, to take it to the next step, Harry assumed release from the Petrificus Totalus only came with DD's 'death'....he further assumed Malfoy was correct that he would not be found for hours, therefore unable to escape the spell, for several hours. So unless someone released Brutal face from Harry's’ Petrificus, I think the MoM has him.

I note the Lexicon says Brutal face may be Big Blonde. NO WAY. Harry noted that Lupin is fighting Big Blonde very shortly after he immobilizes Brutal face with the Petrificus..and why would Harry suddenly change how he describes a DE and not show any surprise that a DE he just immobilized is suddenly at the base of the Tower and fighting?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Hagsquid - Jul 8, 2007 8:17 pm (#281 of 287)

I note the Lexicon says Brutal face may be Big Blonde. NO WAY. Harry noted that Lupin is fighting Big Blonde very shortly after he immobilizes Brutal face with the Petrificus..and why would Harry suddenly change how he describes a DE and not show any surprise that a DE he just immobilized is suddenly at the base of the Tower and fighting?

Good question. Time Turner? Very Happy

Maybe ol' brutal face came back to see what had happened up on the tower when Harry had just chased him off of the Hogwarts grounds, but there I go with wild speculation again.

I personally think Blondie and Brutal Face are two people though.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Luna Logic - Jul 9, 2007 12:39 am (#282 of 287)
Edited by Jul 9, 2007 1:40 am

T Vrana : So unless someone released Brutal face from Harry's Petrificus, I think the MoM has him.

Greyback is also submitted to Petrificus Totalus in the battle (Bloomsbury, p. 656). The MoM must then have the two? Unless someone released them (or one of them) (Who ?)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jul 9, 2007 5:10 am (#283 of 287)

Luna-

Good point. May be a different case for Fenrir, though. There were still other DEs around after he was hit with Harry's spell. He could have been released by a fellow DE. I also wonder if spells work differently on him.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jul 9, 2007 5:12 am (#284 of 287)

hagsquid- That still would not explain why Harry would call him Brutal Face on the Tower and switch to Big Blond below the Tower. To Harry it seems they are two different people. Not knowing their names, he assigns a description and it makes no sense that he would change descriptions.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Hagsquid - Jul 9, 2007 5:47 am (#285 of 287)

Not my theory. I was just throwing out the TimeTurner comment for argument's sake. I think they were two people.

I'm not sure what started the speculation of them being the same person. I just saw "same person in two places at once" and got excited.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

T Vrana - Jul 9, 2007 6:02 am (#286 of 287)
Edited Jul 9, 2007 7:18 am

LOL! I think Jo also put an end to the time turners in OOTP, when the lot of them were destroyed. Hermione even comments that they were all destroyed in HBP. A message from Jo, I think. Gets too messy and too many problems arise when everything can be fixed by time travel. I wish she had never introduced the idea, myself.

The two person 'discussion' started when I looked at the Lexicon for info on Brutal face (whom I think was capture) and found they left open the possibility that Brutal Face and Big blond might be one in the same. Doesn't make sense to me.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Hagsquid - Jul 9, 2007 6:04 am (#287 of 287)

Well, it's possible that someone had a time turner checked out when they were all destroyed. Razz

Though I agree that JKR wanted the Time Turner theories out of the way, and that's why we saw them smashed in HBP.

Sponsored content

Malfoy's Task and The Vow

Malfoy's Task and The Vow

Posts 1 to 25

Pots 26 to 50

Posts 51 to 75

Posts 76 to 100

Posts 101 to 125

Posts 126 to 150

Posts 151 to 175

Posts 176 to 200

Posts 201 to 225

Posts 226 to 250

Posts 251 to 287

Re: Malfoy's Task and The Vow