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Lupin is really James Potter
Elanor Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:45 am
Lupin is really James Potter
Landman - Sep 1, 2003 11:50 am
Edited by Kip Carter Jan 12, 2006 12:17 pm
This is my favorite theory, because it seems the most probable to me, and I think the payoff for Harry would be the greatest. Since he lost his "parents" and his surrogate father Sirius, discovering his real dad living inside his good friend would be a strong emotional reveal near the end of the story. Here are the main points supporting the theory. I've taken these from the Ultimate Unofficial Guide to Harry Potter:
How did DD get James' Invisibility Cloak, and how did Hagrid get the key to the Potter's vault? Implication is that James/Lupin gave them to DD.
Unlke everyone else, Lupin never stared at Harry's scar or mentioned his eyes or resemblance to James (when he met him the first time.) Lupin acts like he already knows Harry. (PoA - Chapter 5)
Lupin seems to be able to read Harry's mind (PoA - chapter 8 )
Harry tells Lupin that when a dementor gets near him, he hears his mum being murdered by Voldemort. On hearing this, Lupin had made "a sudden motion with his arm, as though to grip Harry's shoulder, but thought better of it." (Chapter 10) [There's no reason why Lupin should stop himself from just gripping Harry's arm unless he wants to distance himself emotionally from Harry.]
Trelawney said that Lupin "positively fled when I offered to crystal gaze for him" (Chapter 11) [He's obviously afraid of exposing something besides being a werewolf - since the whole staff already knew that.]
When Harry tells Lupin he is hearing his mum's voice louder, Lupin looks "paler than usual." Harry then tells Lupin how he hears his dad's voice for the first time trying to hold off Voldemort so his mother could escape. "'You heard James?' said Lupin in a strange voice." (Chapter 12)
Professor Lupin, who was "both shaken and pleased," comes over to congratulate Harry on his spectacular Patronus. (Chapter 13) [He was shaken from seeing his own Patronus - the Stag.]
"I certainly don't want Harry dead..." "An odd shiver passed over his face." (Chapter 17) [That's not just a teacher or friend saying that.]
Lupin: "Now that we could all transform." (Chapter 18) [ Why wouldn't he say "Now that they could all transform"?
Lupin has "no hesitation" about what Harry's father would think (Chapter 18) [Why is he so sure about what Harry's father would think?]
Lupin's first name is Remus - the legendary wolf-child who was murdered by his brother or his brother's followers (such as Pettigrew?)
Harry's father, James, is now stuck inside the body of one of his closest (but dead) friends. James is now, for all intents, Remus Lupin (complete with werewolf transformation.)
He is unable to reveal his identity(especially now that Voldemort is back) and is paranoid that his own emotions will make him weak and he will let the truth slip. He so badly wants to touch his son, but he doesn't dare.
BTW, James and Lupin, using a Switching Spell, probably performed by Lily, switched identities as one last precaution to protect the Potter line. Remember that Voldemort wants to extinguish all Potters. The real story behind this is still unknown, hopefully to be revealed in Book 6.
Lupin is really James Potter Thread Index
This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. At that time, this thread was still set in the "Archived Thread to be Worked" folder of the WC forum. Elanor
Landman - Sep 1, 2003 11:50 am
Edited by Kip Carter Jan 12, 2006 12:17 pm
This is my favorite theory, because it seems the most probable to me, and I think the payoff for Harry would be the greatest. Since he lost his "parents" and his surrogate father Sirius, discovering his real dad living inside his good friend would be a strong emotional reveal near the end of the story. Here are the main points supporting the theory. I've taken these from the Ultimate Unofficial Guide to Harry Potter:
How did DD get James' Invisibility Cloak, and how did Hagrid get the key to the Potter's vault? Implication is that James/Lupin gave them to DD.
Unlke everyone else, Lupin never stared at Harry's scar or mentioned his eyes or resemblance to James (when he met him the first time.) Lupin acts like he already knows Harry. (PoA - Chapter 5)
Lupin seems to be able to read Harry's mind (PoA - chapter 8 )
Harry tells Lupin that when a dementor gets near him, he hears his mum being murdered by Voldemort. On hearing this, Lupin had made "a sudden motion with his arm, as though to grip Harry's shoulder, but thought better of it." (Chapter 10) [There's no reason why Lupin should stop himself from just gripping Harry's arm unless he wants to distance himself emotionally from Harry.]
Trelawney said that Lupin "positively fled when I offered to crystal gaze for him" (Chapter 11) [He's obviously afraid of exposing something besides being a werewolf - since the whole staff already knew that.]
When Harry tells Lupin he is hearing his mum's voice louder, Lupin looks "paler than usual." Harry then tells Lupin how he hears his dad's voice for the first time trying to hold off Voldemort so his mother could escape. "'You heard James?' said Lupin in a strange voice." (Chapter 12)
Professor Lupin, who was "both shaken and pleased," comes over to congratulate Harry on his spectacular Patronus. (Chapter 13) [He was shaken from seeing his own Patronus - the Stag.]
"I certainly don't want Harry dead..." "An odd shiver passed over his face." (Chapter 17) [That's not just a teacher or friend saying that.]
Lupin: "Now that we could all transform." (Chapter 18) [ Why wouldn't he say "Now that they could all transform"?
Lupin has "no hesitation" about what Harry's father would think (Chapter 18) [Why is he so sure about what Harry's father would think?]
Lupin's first name is Remus - the legendary wolf-child who was murdered by his brother or his brother's followers (such as Pettigrew?)
Harry's father, James, is now stuck inside the body of one of his closest (but dead) friends. James is now, for all intents, Remus Lupin (complete with werewolf transformation.)
He is unable to reveal his identity(especially now that Voldemort is back) and is paranoid that his own emotions will make him weak and he will let the truth slip. He so badly wants to touch his son, but he doesn't dare.
BTW, James and Lupin, using a Switching Spell, probably performed by Lily, switched identities as one last precaution to protect the Potter line. Remember that Voldemort wants to extinguish all Potters. The real story behind this is still unknown, hopefully to be revealed in Book 6.
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Last edited by Elanor on Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:24 pm; edited 4 times in total
Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Lupin is really James Potter (Post 1 to 50)
Elanor Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:52 am
Denise P. - Sep 1, 2003 1:34 pm (#1 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
This is one of my favorite theories out there but one that gets people all worked up over.
I think it is a brilliant theory. There is also the entire fact that Lupin fled from Trewlawney when she offered to gaze for him (or something like that..don't make me get my book) Upon first reading it, I assumed Lupin didn't want her to know he was a werewolf but then later we find out, she already knew. That being the case...what, exactly, is he hiding? Hmmm....could be that he is James!
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Professor Kosh - Sep 1, 2003 2:33 pm (#2 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Didnt the image of James Potter come out of the wands in GoF Priori Incantum? Also, Lupin doesn't resemble any of the pictures given to Harry by Hagrid, and Harry would recognize if people called Lupin 'James' in the flashback from Snape. Granted, he could disguise himself, but who died looking like James Potter? And if someone did in disguise, would the Priori Incantum spell in GoF continue the disguise?
Also, while Lupin obviously cares about Harry, he is nowhere as involved in his life as Sirius, and I don't think he would let Harry continue to suffer at the Dursleys after Volde was gone the first time and most DEs were in Azkaban. Sorry, but I really don't think this theory holds water.
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Landman - Sep 1, 2003 4:11 pm (#3 of 528)
Professor Kosh - you are looking at this the wrong way. It has nothing to do with being disguised.
The image of James came out of the wand because his body died. Lupin's mind/soul/spirit was in James, and vice versa. And Lily said your dad is coming because she would be aware of the switch and wouldn't want to alert Voldemort or the DE's that a switch was made.
The reason Lupin is not as involved in his life is that he needs to keep his emotional distance and not give away the switch. Please re-read the original post - I think you may have missed some of the key points.
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mischa fan - Sep 1, 2003 4:43 pm (#4 of 528)
Easy being green, it is not
I like this theory, I don't buy into it, but it is enjoyable. The one major problem I have with it is that if James and Lupin switched then why didn't "Lupin" know that the secret keeper was switched to Wormtail. I would think that if Lupin was in James' body and switched the secret keeper then he would have gotten a message to James in Lupin's body. It seems like Lupin was kept at a distance from James,Sirius, and Wormtail because of him being a werewolf.
I also don't see why James would want to switch bodies with someone, and if he did then why not Sirius, his best friend?
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Hem Hem - Sep 1, 2003 4:48 pm (#5 of 528)
And if Lupin has James' soul inside of him, then why doesn't he make a bit more of an effort to keep in touch with his son? If Lupin is James, he's done a rotten job of being a father over the last two years.
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Professor Kosh - Sep 1, 2003 5:01 pm (#6 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
While the spirit idea would explain the physical aspects (missed that in the original post, sorry!), the emotional distance thing simply doesn't add up. After Voldemort's fall, almost everyone assumed he was dead, and most DEs were rounded up in short order and at least played at being 'back to normal' for over 10 years. Why would Lupin (inhabited by James's spirit) continue to hide this?
As for the points/evidence in the original post (numbered as they appeared):
1) The key and cloak could have just as easily have come from DD, who had Hagrid on the scene after the Potters' deaths pretty quickly and could have retrieved them from the house or had them from James for safekeeping (or some combo for each item).
3) Lupin's ability to 'read Harry's mind' does not imply any sort of familiar relationship. Perhaps Lupin mearly understands him (Lupin was quite bright!). Even if Lupin were really James, he hasn't been involved in Harry's day-to-day life almost all his life. Why would he have any greater insight? As a father of a son myself, I can tell you that the parent bond doesn't mean I always know what my son is going through.
4) When Harry tells Lupin about hearing his mom, and Lupin considers reaching out to touch Harry but stops, the implication you make is that he has no other reason to emotionally distance himself. This doesn't necessarily mean he is trying to distance himself. Look at it from this point of view: Lupin was a great friend of Harry's father, and likely mother as well. So he will feel a connection to Harry, but that doesn't mean he feels it is his place to act to familiar with Harry (some people are uncomfortable with physicality, even so much as putting a hand on a shoulder). To Harry, Lupin is a professor and a friend of his father, not a beloved relative whom he has grown up knowing. Lupin is still a relative stranger. 5) In reference to Lupin's reaction to Trelawney, I think the werewolf connection makes more sense than her sensing that he's "not" Lupin.
6) Lupin WAS best friends with James for many years. I imagine Ron would respond the same way about Harry, or Hermonine. I think his reaction was simply that, and doesn't imply anything more.
7) Of course Lupin would be shaken and pleased. Pleased that Harry produced a corporeal Patronus (very hard thing to do), and shaken at the circumstances in which Harry had to do it, AND for the fact that it was the spitting image of his best and long dead friend's animagus form. (How do you think Harry would feel if one day someone produced a patronus that looked exactly like a silver Snuffles?)
9) He says 'we' because they could all transform. Lupin *does* transform as a werewolf. The word applies to him too!
10) Lupin has no hesitation about what Harry's father would think because they were great friends for a long time. Lupin and James were close, almost as close as with Sirius.
Here's an interesting twist on that theory though...what if Lily and James switched Harry w/ another infant to protect Harry? What if the real Harry Potter is....Neville? I've got nothing to support it, but sounds fun!
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Landman - Sep 1, 2003 5:33 pm (#7 of 528)
In a normal book, the bullet points would probably not amount to much, but considering what we know about JKR and how she writes, these things have to amount to something.
There is something special about Lupin that hasn't been revealed to us yet -- we'll just have to wait and see.
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Liz Mann - Sep 1, 2003 5:37 pm (#8 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Here's another piece of evidence for the theory (which I like, by the way): why did Lupin take the Marauder's Map from Harry when they came out of Snape's office? His excuse was, "I am astounded that you didn't hand it in. Particuarly after the last time a student left information about the castle lying around." Bit hypacritical isn't it, when he himself is concealing information that could lead to Sirius's capture? Besides, Sirius already knows the map, he wouldn't have to look at it. And Lupin didn't then go and give it to Dumbledore, did he?
You turn up in the map as who you are, not who you're pretending to be. Harry could have looked on the map and seen 'James Potter' written there and then he would know the truth. And did anybody noticed he only gave him the map back WHEN HE WAS LEAVING AND WOULDN'T BE ON THE MAP ANYMORE??
Oooo! Oooo! I've just thought of something! If Lupin is James, and he does show up as that on that map, then Snape knows who he is! Remember, Lupin left the map on his table, Snape came in to give him his potion and saw it lying there and the dot representing Lupin running along the passage under the Whomping Willow! He would have seen the name on it! And, did you notice, when he entered the room in the Shrieking Shack, he had his want pointed, not at Sirius, the supposed mass murderer, but at Lupin. And, it said:
"Lying on your desk was a certain map. One glance at it told me all I needed to know. I saw you running along this passageway and out of sight."
And again, why tie Lupin up when Sirius was supposed to be the mad and dangerous murderer?
OK, I know I'm probably reading too much into that bit from the Shrieking Shack but it could be seen that way.
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LooneyLupin - Sep 1, 2003 7:10 pm (#9 of 528)
THIS CONTAINS SPOILERS ABOUT BOOK 5. BE WARNED!
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Denise P. - Sep 1, 2003 7:14 pm (#10 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Nope, sorry..you lost me on that logic
Lupin is NOT Harry's father. James is Harry's father. Lupin and James did a switching spell and changed physical bodies. That which makes James James is now residing in Lupin's body. That which made Lupin Lupin was killed when the physical body of James was killed. It is Lupin's body that reacts to the moon, not Lupin himself so James is bound by that change since he is residing in Lupin's body.
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Brave ol' Neville - Sep 1, 2003 8:14 pm (#11 of 528)
Used to be Seek W.
I think Lupin fled from crystal gazing because the crystal ball resembled the moon and he might transform. Thats just my two cents.
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OkieAngel - Sep 2, 2003 2:08 am (#12 of 528)
I think Lupin fled from Trelawney because she's a freak, and he didn't want to hear how he was going to die a grisly death that week...
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Joost! - Sep 2, 2003 3:36 am (#13 of 528)
Second line of information
I don't understand who James suspected to be the traitor. He trusted Sirius and wanted him to be secretkeeper, he made wormtail SK so he trusted him and he locked Lupin with his wife and child (and you must really trust someone who looks like you, if you let him live with your wife!)
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Liz Mann - Sep 2, 2003 7:02 am (#14 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
He probably didn't believe it of any of his friends. If Dumbledore told him one of them had turned traitor, I can see him standing up and saying, "You're wrong!" He probably thought that somebody in the Order had perhaps turned against them, but not one of his three closest friends.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 2, 2003 7:52 am (#15 of 528)
Liz,
As one of the people attacked many times for defending this theory I cannot belive I missed the PoA part about Snape pointing the wand at Lupin and not Sirius. I can see him being more angry that James is still alive then at Sirius being out of prison.
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Liz Mann - Sep 2, 2003 12:15 pm (#16 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Exactly. After all, as much as he hated Sirius, Lupin and Wormtail, he seemed to have hated James the most.
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W J - Sep 2, 2003 12:20 pm (#17 of 528)
Nice argument, Landman, but I still don't buy it. Prof. Kosh has countered each point and I still can't see any reason for James not to have revealed himself by now. Also, JKR said that it irked her when people believed that Harry's parents are not dead. I don't think we will see James or Lily alive again in any form.
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rettoP yrraH - Sep 2, 2003 12:26 pm (#18 of 528)
Half of what I say is meaningless
I aggree with WJ...James is dead. Lilly is dead. Sirius is dead. Bertha Jorkins is dead. ect...
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OkieAngel - Sep 2, 2003 12:34 pm (#19 of 528)
As much as I would love this theory to be true, I just don't see it being plausible. For one thing, Snivellus would have went running to tattle straight to DD with the proof, which would've been great because then they would've surely noticed Peter's name there as well. As for who James thought the mole was, I agree that he probably didn't suspect any of his closest friends.
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Harold Pinta - Sep 2, 2003 1:18 pm (#20 of 528)
Didn't JKR say in one interview that we would never see a live James or Lily? The idea seems too farfetched for me. If James essence, soul mind wahtever is in lupin's body, despite all the logical reasons people may have for this theory, he would also be the worst dad in the universe to allow his son living with the Dursley's, going through all this hassle with Voldemort. If I were James in Lupin's body I would want to be near my son and help him in every way I can. As far as I can determine Lupin is Lupin and james unfortunately has died.
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Denise P. - Sep 2, 2003 1:22 pm (#21 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
We won't see James alive because his physical body is dead, gone...no where.
As for not being in contact with Harry for these years, James is safe as long as no one knows he is alive. Once it is known he is alive, he becomes a target again. Can you imagine how this is killing him inside? He wants to protect his son yet the only way he can is by avoiding getting close to him. Do I think he knows what people will think when this all comes out? I do and he is strong enough in his convictions, he will face the wrath of people and possibly the hatred of Harry to protect Harry.
And just so others are aware, this theory is featured in a book called the Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter. It is a good book, worth reading.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 2, 2003 1:48 pm (#22 of 528)
I agree NoVeil...I thought the book was pretty useful. There are alot of other points in the book, besides the James/Lupin theory, that have yet to be resolved. Anyone know if there is going to be an update to the book with OotP chapters included?
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Haggis and Irn Bru - Sep 2, 2003 2:46 pm (#23 of 528)
I have just got a couple of comments on this theory..
Why did Lupin turn into a werewolf if he was James?
Lupin seems to resemble Lupin from the Pensive and not James.
He seems to show restraint in from of Snpae
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rettoP yrraH - Sep 2, 2003 4:10 pm (#24 of 528)
Half of what I say is meaningless
Becase he is not James! his 'soul' is James. I dont agree with the theory but it is intresing.
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Hem Hem - Sep 2, 2003 6:13 pm (#25 of 528)
This comes from the first ezboard forum, a post by Olivia Wood:
"US GoF p.338 "Well, there are Switching Spells ... but what's the point of Switching it? Unless you swapped its fangs for wine-gums or something that would make it less dangerous..." US GoF p.236-7 "Longbottom, kindly do not reveal that you can't even perform a simple Switching Spell in fromt of anyone from Durmstrang..."
That doesn't sound to me as if a Switching Spell would have anything to do with switching conciousness with somebody or anything like that, and I don't think a spell of that nature could be called simple or would be tought in school. If such a spell exists in the HP universe, it's bound to be considered Dark Magic.
I don't really believe in this theory. I don't think Remus' behaveior in PoA was odd at all if you assume he's James' old werewolf friend, but if he's supposed to be James in Remus' body, then I'd say he acted more than a little weird, especially with what we know about James' personality from OoP.
The difference between this theory and a theory like DIGS is that while having Dumbledore be the Giant Squid would have little to no impact on the overall message of the books, having Harry's parent actually be alive and in the body of one of his best friends would definately have an impact on the message. Why would JKR choose to include that plot twist? What would that say about death? What would that say to kids who have lost loved ones? Should they go looking for their dead friends and family members among strangers, since there's a chance that they aren't really dead but just hiding?
I don't think it fits in thematically with what we know about the series so far. It may be a fantasy series, but it's realistic in it's own way, and bringing James back from the dead is just too fairy-taleish, IMO. I just think the books make a lot more sense and are a lot more powerful if Remus is Remus and James stayes dead.
Besides, James was a jerk, and I like Remus. You can't seriously wish him dead?"
I think Olivia's perspective on this theory is perfect.
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Professor Kosh - Sep 2, 2003 7:29 pm (#26 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
I believe I addressed this earlier, but to again rebut the contention that the "Lupin-James" would reveal himself to protect Harry:
For YEARS almost everyone believed the DE and Volde threat was over. Harry is even allowed to shop openly in Diagon Ally, go to the Quiddich Cup, etc, when it is suspected that Volde may be back. It makes NO sense for James to hide to 'protect' himself or Harry. Protect from whom? It doesn't wash.
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Landman - Sep 2, 2003 10:22 pm (#27 of 528)
Harry has never been by himself. It's clear that in addition to Hagrid and the Weasleys, DD has several people watching over Harry at all times, not to mention any spells or charms that may be in place.
The DE's were not gone -- they were just laying low and plotting and scheming. If James revealed himself and took Harry back, they would not only paint huge targets on themselves, Harry would lose that "ancient" magic that DD invoked to protect Harry.
I think those of you who don't consider this either totally don't understand the concept (James' body is gone, but he lives on inside of Lupin subject to Lupins werewolf curse) or are thinking one-dimensionally. There are several layers of story we haven't been told about yet. And as I said, knowing the way JKR writes, she is just giving way too many clues about Lupin for them to be meaningless.
Open your mind to the possibility. . .
BTW, it makes no sense for DD to let Harry live under the stairs for 11 years, but he did, so things don't always make sense until you hear the reasons behind them.
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Maollelujah - Sep 3, 2003 12:21 am (#28 of 528)
I've read some wild theories, but this one takes the cake. You could probably come up with a James-Dumbledore theory just as easy.
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TGF - Sep 3, 2003 12:53 am (#29 of 528)
Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I agree with Maollelujah... If James is Lupin, then I'll start shipping for Ron and Hermione. And those of you that know me will know the weight of that statement.
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Joost! - Sep 3, 2003 1:50 am (#30 of 528)
Second line of information
And don't forget the James-Seamus theory.
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Denise P. - Sep 3, 2003 5:40 am (#31 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
I would be more willing to dismiss this as a wild theory as well...if I had not read all the canon evidence and pondered it. This theory does have merit even if I am not 100% certain it will come to pass.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 3, 2003 5:49 am (#32 of 528)
Edited by Sep 3, 2003 5:51 am
Just to clarify, I know what McGonagall said about 'simple' switching spells...but that doesn't mean there aren't higher level spells that do the same thing. Maybe there are degrees of spells and a really good wizards could get a switching spell to work on humans.
Not to say this theory is correct or incorrect but there is evidence in the Lexicon that shows that it COULD be and since this is a theory board it is a good discussion....
No matter what you believe about this theory we can all agree that there is something more to Lupin that we have not been told in the book so far. I hope now that Sirius is gone Harry will go back to Lupin for more info. remember, in PoA, Harry was becoming pretty close to Lupin before Sirius revealed himself to be innocent and Harry's godfather. I hope Harry remembers who helped him with the Patronus charmed that has saved his life twice now.
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Mare - Sep 3, 2003 6:54 am (#33 of 528)
I can see the evidence, I just don't want to believe this theory is true. I like Remus too much (even though it apparently isn't Remus at all )
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Professor Kosh - Sep 3, 2003 8:16 am (#34 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Harry has had a big target on himself ever since he re-entered the Wizarding world. If there really is a 'Lupin-James', he would have risked nothing more to have been with his son. Also, Harry steps out of the protection of that 'ancient magic' every time he went to the Burrow, to the Quiddich Cup (such an open place to get him; if everyone were really that paranoid about him in those days before Volde came fully back, would they have let him go?) or to Hogsmeade. Besides, can you imagine how BETRAYED Harry will feel if this were true and he found out? I'd be FURIOUS! And that DD didn't tell him (their relationship is strained enough right now, thank you!)?
Sorry, but I truly think that much of the 'evidence' of this is mere wishful thinking reading too much into events. There may be more to Lupin, but the evidence presented earlier in this forum doesn't bear that out. (Still, its a fun theory to debate!)
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 3, 2003 10:43 am (#35 of 528)
Well, part of the Theory is that DD doesn't know - the only two that knew the switch took place were James and Lupin. Just like he didn't know Peter was the secret keeper and not Sirius. The Marauders were able to do alot behind DD's back. That's what makes me think James, Lupin and Sirius are/were extrordinary wizards, probably more so than anyone knew.
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Professor Kosh - Sep 3, 2003 1:30 pm (#36 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
True, James and the gang did several things that DD didn't know about. However, if they had done this, you don't think that James would have told DD? I doubt "Lupin-James" would keep that from DD. Nope!
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Marye Lupin - Sep 3, 2003 2:35 pm (#37 of 528)
"I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building." Peanuts
2 points:
(1) Why didn't Lupin know Sirius was innocent, I can't possibly see Lupin(in James's body) switching SK without telling James. (
2) OoP U.S. Edition p. 670, Harry is talking to Lupin and Sirius about what he saw in the Pensieve:
"'Well...I thought he was a bit of an idiot.'
'Of course he was a bit of an idiot!' said Sirius bracingly.'We were all idiots! Well--not Moony so much,' he said fairly, looking at Lupin, but Lupin shook his head.
'Did I ever tell you to lay off Snape?" he said. 'Did I ever have the guts to tell you I thought you were out of order?'"
Now I may be reading too much into this (I do that sometimes) but from the impression I get of James, I don't think he would criticize the person who died for him like this (it just seems out of character--he's not that good of an actor).
(However, since I'm willing to consider this theory I'll admit that Liz's interpretation of Snape's confrontation in the Shrieking Shack is interesting)
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Professor Kosh - Sep 3, 2003 5:58 pm (#38 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Excellent points Marye! Those points (especially #1) confirm that Lupin is NOT James.
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Landman - Sep 3, 2003 6:38 pm (#39 of 528)
Okay everyone, watch those 'can't possibly' and 'confirm' statements --
If James and Lupin switched bodies for a specific reason, and then Lupin(really James) goes away to do something important, he's now out of the loop. What if Lily and James (really Lupin) decide based on some new information (maybe Sirius is being hunted) that they need to switch to Wormtail.
Are you saying that's not at least possible?
Regarding point 2 Marye -- if you lived as a person, acting totally like him for several years, it would not be too difficult to believe that he would respond based on his memories of that person and his experience with him.
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Ihavebothbuttocks - Sep 4, 2003 5:50 am (#40 of 528)
quote "And again, why tie Lupin up when Sirius was supposed to be the mad and dangerous murderer?"
Maybe because Lupin was the mad and dangerous werewolf who hadn't remembered to take his wolfsbane potion.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 4, 2003 7:36 am (#41 of 528)
BUT....Lupin was in the Shack and we know that he actually has to SEE the moon to turn in to the werewolf. That point is proven later in the story when they walk out and when Lupin fianlly sees the moon he changes...
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mollis - Sep 4, 2003 7:45 am (#42 of 528)
Which brings out a possible error in the books. Lupin didn't change until he saw the moon or was in the moonlight. Why then was the shack all scratched up like the wolf-Lupin had spent time in there? If he has to see the moon to change, why couldn't DD have just put Lupin into a room without windows on the full moon nights and then he never would have changed into the wolf and would not have been a danger to the other students?
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Mare - Sep 4, 2003 8:33 am (#43 of 528)
Padfoot "Prizoner of Azkaban mysteries and mistakes" 12/12/02 8:45am
(I am getting the hang of this linking-thingy )
The link is to a discussion at the bottom of this forum, were this issue has been discussed before, you'll probably find it interesting. Take a look!
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mollis - Sep 4, 2003 9:58 am (#44 of 528)
Thanks Mare! I am not in the least bit surprised to learn this has been discussed in detail before. As a newbie to all of this, I wasn't around for all of that. But it seems to me this really was never explained away. I suppose we'll just have to accept it as is.
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Mare - Sep 4, 2003 11:08 am (#45 of 528)
Yep, I'm afraid we can discuss this bit for all eternity and not get an answer that will satisfy every-one. So we'll just have to stick with JKR's explanation, allthough it seems to have some holes...
That is going to be the worst of it, when book 7 is finished and there are still unsolved issues! And they will never be solved, that means we will all have unsolved issues for the rest of our lives. O dear, what are the chances of all of us becoming ghosts?
(I am rambling, I know. Any-one wants to say something on-topic?)
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mollis - Sep 4, 2003 11:14 am (#46 of 528)
Yeah, I guess this is supposed to be about Lupin as James Potter. I just can't seem to swallow that one. It doesn't feel right to me. I think there is more to Lupin than meets the eye, as was implied in POA. We just need the rest of the story (hopefully in Book 6). But I don't think that he is actually James. Although it is fun to hear people defend this theory!
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Professor Kosh - Sep 4, 2003 11:33 am (#47 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Sorry, but I just can't see Lily making such a large decision as changing the secret-keeper without finding someway to tell 'Lupin-James', and I don't think 'James-Lupin' would have done it either without letting 'Lupin-James' know. Sorry, but it just doesn't add up! The only way this theory could be possible is if DD, Lupin, James, Lily were ALL acting out of character or had vastly different characters than previously believed.
on a side note about the full-moon changing thing: i believe it was done this way out of dramatic license. It made for a good scene. JKR isn't perfect, and not everything is 100% internally consistant*
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 4, 2003 12:20 pm (#48 of 528)
Here is the thing about the switch....from the conversation in PoA it seemed as though it was Sirius idea to switch the secret keeper. Which explains why the Lupin (James) character is surprised by this revelation in the shack. If James, as Lupin, made teh switch and left to do what he needed to do and during the time he was gone the Fidelius Charm was placed, then while he is still gone, Peter betrays the Potters and they are killed, the real James would not have known the switch was made.
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mischa fan - Sep 3, 2003 8:10 pm (#49 of 528)
Easy being green, it is not
A couple of problems that bug me. First, the Potters are going to go into hiding, James has something he needs to do so he and Lupin switch, would Lupin really take it on himself to change James' choice for secret keeper, would he really make that decision himself. And if there was a valid reason not to use Sirius then wouldn't he then go with Dumbledore, it was stated that the Potters and Dumbledore where close, and Dumbledore would have been a better choice then Wormtail.
Second problem, why, if they did switch, didn't Lupin(James) go to Dumbledore and tell him what had happened and ask for his son back, Dumbledore could have told if Lupin was lying or not.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 4, 2003 12:49 pm (#50 of 528)
Just to address couple of the questions. I will have to reread PoA but I thought Sirius says it was his idea to switch secret keepers. Anyone who knew the Potter's would assume that Sirius was the secret keeper and he would be a target, Peter being the last choice of anyone would be fairly safe. Second, DD, I believe was not made a Secret Keeper becasue he was VERY active in the Order at the time that meant he was at risk alot.
The reason I think Lupin does not ask to get Harry back is much more complex. Having a gf who was adopted at a young age, her reaction to seeing her birth parents was not exactly a warm family reunion. Imagine Harry's reaction to finding out his father had been alive the entier time and he was stuck with the Dursey's for 10 years. Also, Lupin knows that Harry is probably safer with the Dursley's than with him at the current time. And everyone knows that Harry would refuse to go back to the Dursley's if he thought his father was alive (as evidenced by his reaction to Sirius offering to let him stay with him)
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Ravenclaw Pony
This is one of my favorite theories out there but one that gets people all worked up over.
I think it is a brilliant theory. There is also the entire fact that Lupin fled from Trewlawney when she offered to gaze for him (or something like that..don't make me get my book) Upon first reading it, I assumed Lupin didn't want her to know he was a werewolf but then later we find out, she already knew. That being the case...what, exactly, is he hiding? Hmmm....could be that he is James!
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Professor Kosh - Sep 1, 2003 2:33 pm (#2 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Didnt the image of James Potter come out of the wands in GoF Priori Incantum? Also, Lupin doesn't resemble any of the pictures given to Harry by Hagrid, and Harry would recognize if people called Lupin 'James' in the flashback from Snape. Granted, he could disguise himself, but who died looking like James Potter? And if someone did in disguise, would the Priori Incantum spell in GoF continue the disguise?
Also, while Lupin obviously cares about Harry, he is nowhere as involved in his life as Sirius, and I don't think he would let Harry continue to suffer at the Dursleys after Volde was gone the first time and most DEs were in Azkaban. Sorry, but I really don't think this theory holds water.
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Landman - Sep 1, 2003 4:11 pm (#3 of 528)
Professor Kosh - you are looking at this the wrong way. It has nothing to do with being disguised.
The image of James came out of the wand because his body died. Lupin's mind/soul/spirit was in James, and vice versa. And Lily said your dad is coming because she would be aware of the switch and wouldn't want to alert Voldemort or the DE's that a switch was made.
The reason Lupin is not as involved in his life is that he needs to keep his emotional distance and not give away the switch. Please re-read the original post - I think you may have missed some of the key points.
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mischa fan - Sep 1, 2003 4:43 pm (#4 of 528)
Easy being green, it is not
I like this theory, I don't buy into it, but it is enjoyable. The one major problem I have with it is that if James and Lupin switched then why didn't "Lupin" know that the secret keeper was switched to Wormtail. I would think that if Lupin was in James' body and switched the secret keeper then he would have gotten a message to James in Lupin's body. It seems like Lupin was kept at a distance from James,Sirius, and Wormtail because of him being a werewolf.
I also don't see why James would want to switch bodies with someone, and if he did then why not Sirius, his best friend?
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Hem Hem - Sep 1, 2003 4:48 pm (#5 of 528)
And if Lupin has James' soul inside of him, then why doesn't he make a bit more of an effort to keep in touch with his son? If Lupin is James, he's done a rotten job of being a father over the last two years.
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Professor Kosh - Sep 1, 2003 5:01 pm (#6 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
While the spirit idea would explain the physical aspects (missed that in the original post, sorry!), the emotional distance thing simply doesn't add up. After Voldemort's fall, almost everyone assumed he was dead, and most DEs were rounded up in short order and at least played at being 'back to normal' for over 10 years. Why would Lupin (inhabited by James's spirit) continue to hide this?
As for the points/evidence in the original post (numbered as they appeared):
1) The key and cloak could have just as easily have come from DD, who had Hagrid on the scene after the Potters' deaths pretty quickly and could have retrieved them from the house or had them from James for safekeeping (or some combo for each item).
3) Lupin's ability to 'read Harry's mind' does not imply any sort of familiar relationship. Perhaps Lupin mearly understands him (Lupin was quite bright!). Even if Lupin were really James, he hasn't been involved in Harry's day-to-day life almost all his life. Why would he have any greater insight? As a father of a son myself, I can tell you that the parent bond doesn't mean I always know what my son is going through.
4) When Harry tells Lupin about hearing his mom, and Lupin considers reaching out to touch Harry but stops, the implication you make is that he has no other reason to emotionally distance himself. This doesn't necessarily mean he is trying to distance himself. Look at it from this point of view: Lupin was a great friend of Harry's father, and likely mother as well. So he will feel a connection to Harry, but that doesn't mean he feels it is his place to act to familiar with Harry (some people are uncomfortable with physicality, even so much as putting a hand on a shoulder). To Harry, Lupin is a professor and a friend of his father, not a beloved relative whom he has grown up knowing. Lupin is still a relative stranger. 5) In reference to Lupin's reaction to Trelawney, I think the werewolf connection makes more sense than her sensing that he's "not" Lupin.
6) Lupin WAS best friends with James for many years. I imagine Ron would respond the same way about Harry, or Hermonine. I think his reaction was simply that, and doesn't imply anything more.
7) Of course Lupin would be shaken and pleased. Pleased that Harry produced a corporeal Patronus (very hard thing to do), and shaken at the circumstances in which Harry had to do it, AND for the fact that it was the spitting image of his best and long dead friend's animagus form. (How do you think Harry would feel if one day someone produced a patronus that looked exactly like a silver Snuffles?)
9) He says 'we' because they could all transform. Lupin *does* transform as a werewolf. The word applies to him too!
10) Lupin has no hesitation about what Harry's father would think because they were great friends for a long time. Lupin and James were close, almost as close as with Sirius.
Here's an interesting twist on that theory though...what if Lily and James switched Harry w/ another infant to protect Harry? What if the real Harry Potter is....Neville? I've got nothing to support it, but sounds fun!
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Landman - Sep 1, 2003 5:33 pm (#7 of 528)
In a normal book, the bullet points would probably not amount to much, but considering what we know about JKR and how she writes, these things have to amount to something.
There is something special about Lupin that hasn't been revealed to us yet -- we'll just have to wait and see.
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Liz Mann - Sep 1, 2003 5:37 pm (#8 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Here's another piece of evidence for the theory (which I like, by the way): why did Lupin take the Marauder's Map from Harry when they came out of Snape's office? His excuse was, "I am astounded that you didn't hand it in. Particuarly after the last time a student left information about the castle lying around." Bit hypacritical isn't it, when he himself is concealing information that could lead to Sirius's capture? Besides, Sirius already knows the map, he wouldn't have to look at it. And Lupin didn't then go and give it to Dumbledore, did he?
You turn up in the map as who you are, not who you're pretending to be. Harry could have looked on the map and seen 'James Potter' written there and then he would know the truth. And did anybody noticed he only gave him the map back WHEN HE WAS LEAVING AND WOULDN'T BE ON THE MAP ANYMORE??
Oooo! Oooo! I've just thought of something! If Lupin is James, and he does show up as that on that map, then Snape knows who he is! Remember, Lupin left the map on his table, Snape came in to give him his potion and saw it lying there and the dot representing Lupin running along the passage under the Whomping Willow! He would have seen the name on it! And, did you notice, when he entered the room in the Shrieking Shack, he had his want pointed, not at Sirius, the supposed mass murderer, but at Lupin. And, it said:
"Lying on your desk was a certain map. One glance at it told me all I needed to know. I saw you running along this passageway and out of sight."
And again, why tie Lupin up when Sirius was supposed to be the mad and dangerous murderer?
OK, I know I'm probably reading too much into that bit from the Shrieking Shack but it could be seen that way.
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LooneyLupin - Sep 1, 2003 7:10 pm (#9 of 528)
THIS CONTAINS SPOILERS ABOUT BOOK 5. BE WARNED!
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Denise P. - Sep 1, 2003 7:14 pm (#10 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Nope, sorry..you lost me on that logic
Lupin is NOT Harry's father. James is Harry's father. Lupin and James did a switching spell and changed physical bodies. That which makes James James is now residing in Lupin's body. That which made Lupin Lupin was killed when the physical body of James was killed. It is Lupin's body that reacts to the moon, not Lupin himself so James is bound by that change since he is residing in Lupin's body.
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Brave ol' Neville - Sep 1, 2003 8:14 pm (#11 of 528)
Used to be Seek W.
I think Lupin fled from crystal gazing because the crystal ball resembled the moon and he might transform. Thats just my two cents.
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OkieAngel - Sep 2, 2003 2:08 am (#12 of 528)
I think Lupin fled from Trelawney because she's a freak, and he didn't want to hear how he was going to die a grisly death that week...
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Joost! - Sep 2, 2003 3:36 am (#13 of 528)
Second line of information
I don't understand who James suspected to be the traitor. He trusted Sirius and wanted him to be secretkeeper, he made wormtail SK so he trusted him and he locked Lupin with his wife and child (and you must really trust someone who looks like you, if you let him live with your wife!)
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Liz Mann - Sep 2, 2003 7:02 am (#14 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
He probably didn't believe it of any of his friends. If Dumbledore told him one of them had turned traitor, I can see him standing up and saying, "You're wrong!" He probably thought that somebody in the Order had perhaps turned against them, but not one of his three closest friends.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 2, 2003 7:52 am (#15 of 528)
Liz,
As one of the people attacked many times for defending this theory I cannot belive I missed the PoA part about Snape pointing the wand at Lupin and not Sirius. I can see him being more angry that James is still alive then at Sirius being out of prison.
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Liz Mann - Sep 2, 2003 12:15 pm (#16 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Exactly. After all, as much as he hated Sirius, Lupin and Wormtail, he seemed to have hated James the most.
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W J - Sep 2, 2003 12:20 pm (#17 of 528)
Nice argument, Landman, but I still don't buy it. Prof. Kosh has countered each point and I still can't see any reason for James not to have revealed himself by now. Also, JKR said that it irked her when people believed that Harry's parents are not dead. I don't think we will see James or Lily alive again in any form.
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rettoP yrraH - Sep 2, 2003 12:26 pm (#18 of 528)
Half of what I say is meaningless
I aggree with WJ...James is dead. Lilly is dead. Sirius is dead. Bertha Jorkins is dead. ect...
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OkieAngel - Sep 2, 2003 12:34 pm (#19 of 528)
As much as I would love this theory to be true, I just don't see it being plausible. For one thing, Snivellus would have went running to tattle straight to DD with the proof, which would've been great because then they would've surely noticed Peter's name there as well. As for who James thought the mole was, I agree that he probably didn't suspect any of his closest friends.
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Harold Pinta - Sep 2, 2003 1:18 pm (#20 of 528)
Didn't JKR say in one interview that we would never see a live James or Lily? The idea seems too farfetched for me. If James essence, soul mind wahtever is in lupin's body, despite all the logical reasons people may have for this theory, he would also be the worst dad in the universe to allow his son living with the Dursley's, going through all this hassle with Voldemort. If I were James in Lupin's body I would want to be near my son and help him in every way I can. As far as I can determine Lupin is Lupin and james unfortunately has died.
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Denise P. - Sep 2, 2003 1:22 pm (#21 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
We won't see James alive because his physical body is dead, gone...no where.
As for not being in contact with Harry for these years, James is safe as long as no one knows he is alive. Once it is known he is alive, he becomes a target again. Can you imagine how this is killing him inside? He wants to protect his son yet the only way he can is by avoiding getting close to him. Do I think he knows what people will think when this all comes out? I do and he is strong enough in his convictions, he will face the wrath of people and possibly the hatred of Harry to protect Harry.
And just so others are aware, this theory is featured in a book called the Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter. It is a good book, worth reading.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 2, 2003 1:48 pm (#22 of 528)
I agree NoVeil...I thought the book was pretty useful. There are alot of other points in the book, besides the James/Lupin theory, that have yet to be resolved. Anyone know if there is going to be an update to the book with OotP chapters included?
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Haggis and Irn Bru - Sep 2, 2003 2:46 pm (#23 of 528)
I have just got a couple of comments on this theory..
Why did Lupin turn into a werewolf if he was James?
Lupin seems to resemble Lupin from the Pensive and not James.
He seems to show restraint in from of Snpae
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rettoP yrraH - Sep 2, 2003 4:10 pm (#24 of 528)
Half of what I say is meaningless
Becase he is not James! his 'soul' is James. I dont agree with the theory but it is intresing.
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Hem Hem - Sep 2, 2003 6:13 pm (#25 of 528)
This comes from the first ezboard forum, a post by Olivia Wood:
"US GoF p.338 "Well, there are Switching Spells ... but what's the point of Switching it? Unless you swapped its fangs for wine-gums or something that would make it less dangerous..." US GoF p.236-7 "Longbottom, kindly do not reveal that you can't even perform a simple Switching Spell in fromt of anyone from Durmstrang..."
That doesn't sound to me as if a Switching Spell would have anything to do with switching conciousness with somebody or anything like that, and I don't think a spell of that nature could be called simple or would be tought in school. If such a spell exists in the HP universe, it's bound to be considered Dark Magic.
I don't really believe in this theory. I don't think Remus' behaveior in PoA was odd at all if you assume he's James' old werewolf friend, but if he's supposed to be James in Remus' body, then I'd say he acted more than a little weird, especially with what we know about James' personality from OoP.
The difference between this theory and a theory like DIGS is that while having Dumbledore be the Giant Squid would have little to no impact on the overall message of the books, having Harry's parent actually be alive and in the body of one of his best friends would definately have an impact on the message. Why would JKR choose to include that plot twist? What would that say about death? What would that say to kids who have lost loved ones? Should they go looking for their dead friends and family members among strangers, since there's a chance that they aren't really dead but just hiding?
I don't think it fits in thematically with what we know about the series so far. It may be a fantasy series, but it's realistic in it's own way, and bringing James back from the dead is just too fairy-taleish, IMO. I just think the books make a lot more sense and are a lot more powerful if Remus is Remus and James stayes dead.
Besides, James was a jerk, and I like Remus. You can't seriously wish him dead?"
I think Olivia's perspective on this theory is perfect.
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Professor Kosh - Sep 2, 2003 7:29 pm (#26 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
I believe I addressed this earlier, but to again rebut the contention that the "Lupin-James" would reveal himself to protect Harry:
For YEARS almost everyone believed the DE and Volde threat was over. Harry is even allowed to shop openly in Diagon Ally, go to the Quiddich Cup, etc, when it is suspected that Volde may be back. It makes NO sense for James to hide to 'protect' himself or Harry. Protect from whom? It doesn't wash.
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Landman - Sep 2, 2003 10:22 pm (#27 of 528)
Harry has never been by himself. It's clear that in addition to Hagrid and the Weasleys, DD has several people watching over Harry at all times, not to mention any spells or charms that may be in place.
The DE's were not gone -- they were just laying low and plotting and scheming. If James revealed himself and took Harry back, they would not only paint huge targets on themselves, Harry would lose that "ancient" magic that DD invoked to protect Harry.
I think those of you who don't consider this either totally don't understand the concept (James' body is gone, but he lives on inside of Lupin subject to Lupins werewolf curse) or are thinking one-dimensionally. There are several layers of story we haven't been told about yet. And as I said, knowing the way JKR writes, she is just giving way too many clues about Lupin for them to be meaningless.
Open your mind to the possibility. . .
BTW, it makes no sense for DD to let Harry live under the stairs for 11 years, but he did, so things don't always make sense until you hear the reasons behind them.
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Maollelujah - Sep 3, 2003 12:21 am (#28 of 528)
I've read some wild theories, but this one takes the cake. You could probably come up with a James-Dumbledore theory just as easy.
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TGF - Sep 3, 2003 12:53 am (#29 of 528)
Anti-Voldemort Insurgent
I agree with Maollelujah... If James is Lupin, then I'll start shipping for Ron and Hermione. And those of you that know me will know the weight of that statement.
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Joost! - Sep 3, 2003 1:50 am (#30 of 528)
Second line of information
And don't forget the James-Seamus theory.
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Denise P. - Sep 3, 2003 5:40 am (#31 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
I would be more willing to dismiss this as a wild theory as well...if I had not read all the canon evidence and pondered it. This theory does have merit even if I am not 100% certain it will come to pass.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 3, 2003 5:49 am (#32 of 528)
Edited by Sep 3, 2003 5:51 am
Just to clarify, I know what McGonagall said about 'simple' switching spells...but that doesn't mean there aren't higher level spells that do the same thing. Maybe there are degrees of spells and a really good wizards could get a switching spell to work on humans.
Not to say this theory is correct or incorrect but there is evidence in the Lexicon that shows that it COULD be and since this is a theory board it is a good discussion....
No matter what you believe about this theory we can all agree that there is something more to Lupin that we have not been told in the book so far. I hope now that Sirius is gone Harry will go back to Lupin for more info. remember, in PoA, Harry was becoming pretty close to Lupin before Sirius revealed himself to be innocent and Harry's godfather. I hope Harry remembers who helped him with the Patronus charmed that has saved his life twice now.
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Mare - Sep 3, 2003 6:54 am (#33 of 528)
I can see the evidence, I just don't want to believe this theory is true. I like Remus too much (even though it apparently isn't Remus at all )
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Professor Kosh - Sep 3, 2003 8:16 am (#34 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Harry has had a big target on himself ever since he re-entered the Wizarding world. If there really is a 'Lupin-James', he would have risked nothing more to have been with his son. Also, Harry steps out of the protection of that 'ancient magic' every time he went to the Burrow, to the Quiddich Cup (such an open place to get him; if everyone were really that paranoid about him in those days before Volde came fully back, would they have let him go?) or to Hogsmeade. Besides, can you imagine how BETRAYED Harry will feel if this were true and he found out? I'd be FURIOUS! And that DD didn't tell him (their relationship is strained enough right now, thank you!)?
Sorry, but I truly think that much of the 'evidence' of this is mere wishful thinking reading too much into events. There may be more to Lupin, but the evidence presented earlier in this forum doesn't bear that out. (Still, its a fun theory to debate!)
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 3, 2003 10:43 am (#35 of 528)
Well, part of the Theory is that DD doesn't know - the only two that knew the switch took place were James and Lupin. Just like he didn't know Peter was the secret keeper and not Sirius. The Marauders were able to do alot behind DD's back. That's what makes me think James, Lupin and Sirius are/were extrordinary wizards, probably more so than anyone knew.
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Professor Kosh - Sep 3, 2003 1:30 pm (#36 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
True, James and the gang did several things that DD didn't know about. However, if they had done this, you don't think that James would have told DD? I doubt "Lupin-James" would keep that from DD. Nope!
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Marye Lupin - Sep 3, 2003 2:35 pm (#37 of 528)
"I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building." Peanuts
2 points:
(1) Why didn't Lupin know Sirius was innocent, I can't possibly see Lupin(in James's body) switching SK without telling James. (
2) OoP U.S. Edition p. 670, Harry is talking to Lupin and Sirius about what he saw in the Pensieve:
"'Well...I thought he was a bit of an idiot.'
'Of course he was a bit of an idiot!' said Sirius bracingly.'We were all idiots! Well--not Moony so much,' he said fairly, looking at Lupin, but Lupin shook his head.
'Did I ever tell you to lay off Snape?" he said. 'Did I ever have the guts to tell you I thought you were out of order?'"
Now I may be reading too much into this (I do that sometimes) but from the impression I get of James, I don't think he would criticize the person who died for him like this (it just seems out of character--he's not that good of an actor).
(However, since I'm willing to consider this theory I'll admit that Liz's interpretation of Snape's confrontation in the Shrieking Shack is interesting)
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Professor Kosh - Sep 3, 2003 5:58 pm (#38 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Excellent points Marye! Those points (especially #1) confirm that Lupin is NOT James.
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Landman - Sep 3, 2003 6:38 pm (#39 of 528)
Okay everyone, watch those 'can't possibly' and 'confirm' statements --
If James and Lupin switched bodies for a specific reason, and then Lupin(really James) goes away to do something important, he's now out of the loop. What if Lily and James (really Lupin) decide based on some new information (maybe Sirius is being hunted) that they need to switch to Wormtail.
Are you saying that's not at least possible?
Regarding point 2 Marye -- if you lived as a person, acting totally like him for several years, it would not be too difficult to believe that he would respond based on his memories of that person and his experience with him.
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Ihavebothbuttocks - Sep 4, 2003 5:50 am (#40 of 528)
quote "And again, why tie Lupin up when Sirius was supposed to be the mad and dangerous murderer?"
Maybe because Lupin was the mad and dangerous werewolf who hadn't remembered to take his wolfsbane potion.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 4, 2003 7:36 am (#41 of 528)
BUT....Lupin was in the Shack and we know that he actually has to SEE the moon to turn in to the werewolf. That point is proven later in the story when they walk out and when Lupin fianlly sees the moon he changes...
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mollis - Sep 4, 2003 7:45 am (#42 of 528)
Which brings out a possible error in the books. Lupin didn't change until he saw the moon or was in the moonlight. Why then was the shack all scratched up like the wolf-Lupin had spent time in there? If he has to see the moon to change, why couldn't DD have just put Lupin into a room without windows on the full moon nights and then he never would have changed into the wolf and would not have been a danger to the other students?
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Mare - Sep 4, 2003 8:33 am (#43 of 528)
Padfoot "Prizoner of Azkaban mysteries and mistakes" 12/12/02 8:45am
(I am getting the hang of this linking-thingy )
The link is to a discussion at the bottom of this forum, were this issue has been discussed before, you'll probably find it interesting. Take a look!
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mollis - Sep 4, 2003 9:58 am (#44 of 528)
Thanks Mare! I am not in the least bit surprised to learn this has been discussed in detail before. As a newbie to all of this, I wasn't around for all of that. But it seems to me this really was never explained away. I suppose we'll just have to accept it as is.
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Mare - Sep 4, 2003 11:08 am (#45 of 528)
Yep, I'm afraid we can discuss this bit for all eternity and not get an answer that will satisfy every-one. So we'll just have to stick with JKR's explanation, allthough it seems to have some holes...
That is going to be the worst of it, when book 7 is finished and there are still unsolved issues! And they will never be solved, that means we will all have unsolved issues for the rest of our lives. O dear, what are the chances of all of us becoming ghosts?
(I am rambling, I know. Any-one wants to say something on-topic?)
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mollis - Sep 4, 2003 11:14 am (#46 of 528)
Yeah, I guess this is supposed to be about Lupin as James Potter. I just can't seem to swallow that one. It doesn't feel right to me. I think there is more to Lupin than meets the eye, as was implied in POA. We just need the rest of the story (hopefully in Book 6). But I don't think that he is actually James. Although it is fun to hear people defend this theory!
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Professor Kosh - Sep 4, 2003 11:33 am (#47 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Sorry, but I just can't see Lily making such a large decision as changing the secret-keeper without finding someway to tell 'Lupin-James', and I don't think 'James-Lupin' would have done it either without letting 'Lupin-James' know. Sorry, but it just doesn't add up! The only way this theory could be possible is if DD, Lupin, James, Lily were ALL acting out of character or had vastly different characters than previously believed.
on a side note about the full-moon changing thing: i believe it was done this way out of dramatic license. It made for a good scene. JKR isn't perfect, and not everything is 100% internally consistant*
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 4, 2003 12:20 pm (#48 of 528)
Here is the thing about the switch....from the conversation in PoA it seemed as though it was Sirius idea to switch the secret keeper. Which explains why the Lupin (James) character is surprised by this revelation in the shack. If James, as Lupin, made teh switch and left to do what he needed to do and during the time he was gone the Fidelius Charm was placed, then while he is still gone, Peter betrays the Potters and they are killed, the real James would not have known the switch was made.
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mischa fan - Sep 3, 2003 8:10 pm (#49 of 528)
Easy being green, it is not
A couple of problems that bug me. First, the Potters are going to go into hiding, James has something he needs to do so he and Lupin switch, would Lupin really take it on himself to change James' choice for secret keeper, would he really make that decision himself. And if there was a valid reason not to use Sirius then wouldn't he then go with Dumbledore, it was stated that the Potters and Dumbledore where close, and Dumbledore would have been a better choice then Wormtail.
Second problem, why, if they did switch, didn't Lupin(James) go to Dumbledore and tell him what had happened and ask for his son back, Dumbledore could have told if Lupin was lying or not.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 4, 2003 12:49 pm (#50 of 528)
Just to address couple of the questions. I will have to reread PoA but I thought Sirius says it was his idea to switch secret keepers. Anyone who knew the Potter's would assume that Sirius was the secret keeper and he would be a target, Peter being the last choice of anyone would be fairly safe. Second, DD, I believe was not made a Secret Keeper becasue he was VERY active in the Order at the time that meant he was at risk alot.
The reason I think Lupin does not ask to get Harry back is much more complex. Having a gf who was adopted at a young age, her reaction to seeing her birth parents was not exactly a warm family reunion. Imagine Harry's reaction to finding out his father had been alive the entier time and he was stuck with the Dursey's for 10 years. Also, Lupin knows that Harry is probably safer with the Dursley's than with him at the current time. And everyone knows that Harry would refuse to go back to the Dursley's if he thought his father was alive (as evidenced by his reaction to Sirius offering to let him stay with him)
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Last edited by Elanor on Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:58 am; edited 1 time in total
Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Lupin is really James Potter (Post 51 to 100)
Elanor Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:57 am
Professor Kosh - Sep 4, 2003 3:29 pm (#51 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
True, Harry might NOW be safer at the Dursleys, but again, he was not in that much danger after most of the DE were imprisoned or killed. If Lupin were James, he would be very irresponsible not to ask DD for him back. Even if DD said no, then DD would know and Harry would have been told by now! And, that still doesn't address mischa fan's point that Lupin wouldn't take it on himself to change the Secret Keeper without telling James or (if James-Lupin were unreachable) at least DD.
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Hem Hem - Sep 4, 2003 5:30 pm (#52 of 528)
If Lupin is really Harry's dad, he should be at least trying to maintain the relationship they developed in PoA. Even that much doesn't seem to be happening.
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Lady Kazuma - Sep 4, 2003 7:09 pm (#53 of 528)
I feel a long-winded post coming on...ack, nearly my bedtime...
Allow me to address a few topics brought up, and then introduce an idea or two of my own:
Basically, they all knew there was a spy in the group of four. Everyone did rather assume it wasn't James spying on himself, so that leaves three. Consider from now on that Sirius thought Remus was the spy, Lily thought Sirius was the spy, Peter really was the spy, and James thought Peter was the spy.
Why? Sirius thought Remus was the spy because that's what he told Harry. I don't know why exactly, but that is a fact. Lily would think Sirius possible for being the spy because she would know that James is biased toward him, she would know Sirius's history, and he doesn't act like Mister Innocent anyway. Peter was the spy, unless some really weird twist shows up (My crazy theory - James was the spy. But I won't go into that...) James thought Peter was the spy because, well, he was. There would have to be at least some indication that he was.
So, James arranges for Sirius to be made secret-keeper, then switches himself with Remus. James was extremely talented in Transfiguration, so I think he would have been able to cast an advanced form of the switching spell to do so. James does not tell Lily about this, nor Sirius, nor Dumbledore, nor anyone but Remus.
But why would he do it?
This depends a lot of circumstance, which I just can't get over when I'm trying to support theories. It's impossible to prove if there was one circumstance or another, but here are a few possibilities:
1.) James had something very important to do, but couldn't leave hiding to do it. I was never able to understand how James would have handled being locked up like that all the time. The intention wasn't just for a week - He'd have been forced to stay as long as there was danger from Voldemort.
2.) For the above reasons, James just had to get out, maybe it was just supposed to be temporary. I always took it that Sirius really had been the secret-keeper at one point, but then convinced 'James' and Lily to change after awhile. Why would Peter and Voldemort take a week or more to reveal the secret/perform the attack.
3.) Whatever reason they came up with in the Ultimate..yada-yada-yada...Guide. I read it, but I can't remember just know, nor can I remember where I put my book.
To be honest, this is the hardest part for me when supporting this theory. You can shoot down any theory I post in regards to this, but it really does depend on circumstances.
Anyway, so they've changed, and James now goes off and does whatever, and Remus is stuck in hiding with Lily and Harry. Remus however, either doesn't know that James suspects Peter, or comes up with different evidence against Sirius, and he *and Lily* decide to change to Peter. After all, I love the man, but I wouldn't trust him with my secrets, he seems sort of like Hagrid with that... Meanwhile, Lily has no idea she's no longer with her husband.
Next, we all know what happens.
So Baby!Harry is sent to live with his Aunt and Uncle, whom Lily really didn't seem all that close to, so why would James know much about them? James would initially want to claim Harry, and I'm sure he asked Dumbledore. Dumbledore would have explained his reasons, the protection Harry had there, and whatever else Dumbledore has to say about it, and James decided that that was the safest place for Harry. After all, Dumbledore and the Order knew that Voldemort wasn't dead, and there were definatly Death Eaters still on the loose. Just look at what happened to the Longbottoms, how many years after the fact? Just when everyone was starting to feel safe. That may have been the final factor for James in leaving Harry with the Dursleys, where he was ensured safety.
Why wouldn't James reveal himself as James? Would you believe him? I don't think I would. First of all, James is now a werewolf, just as effectively as if he'd been bitten, except he didn't have to go through that. People don't trust werewolves worth anything, that's already been made obvious. Everyone would decide he's insane. Secondly, so far as everyone knows, Remus's three best friends were just betrayed and killed by the fourth. And by Remus's best friends, I mean only friends. Remus would have been a very lonely and sad guy, probably living by himself off away from everyone else somewhere in a cottage or shack or something. Again, everyone would decide he's gone mad. Thirdly, James really has just been given a heavy blow. He put one of his friends in grave danger, and they died because of it. Sirius, to James's knowledge, betrayed him - his wife had been right, he'd been blind about it, and now his wife was dead, his friends were dead, and his son would suffer without a proper family. Also, he suspected Hero!Peter of being a traitor, when he was driven into a tearful rage and attacked the real traitor in James's name for the sake of James's revenge. James is feeling awfully guilty by now. So he doesn't tell, and for whatever reason (either Dumbledore's protections, or his own worries) he can't get close to his son as he's growing up. Well, neither did Remus, that's not so far-fetched.
And Harry grows up and goes to school, and I doubt he really knows much about what's happening to him there. No one seemed to know about Quirrel or Riddle, and I doubt Dumbledore would have given all the details to Remus, either, so James wouldn't know his son was in danger. So far as he knew, the plan was still working, and Harry was now safer than ever - he's learning magic at Hogwarts now, after all.
So on flows time, and all the sudden Sirius Black escapes from Azkaban. It's one of James's worst fears come true. The man he trusted beyond anyone (even Dumbledore), and who betrayed that trust so horribly is now loose, and said to be after Harry. I believe Dumbledore approached Remus for the job, and forced him to accept. And I believe James would jump at the chance, even if he is still frightened of what could happen.
James may be, at this point, all ready to spill his guts out to Harry about the truth. He has every intention of doing it. He first sees Harry on the train ride (because I don't believe he was actually asleep the whole time, whether he was James or Remus), and takes the time to adjust himself to seeing him. I think that would be necessary before facing someone you helped create, that you've never really met before, and who looks eerily like you are supposed to look.
So what stops James from spilling his secret? The dementors. James sees how tormented Harry is by his parents death, but also that he's accepting of it. He's hearing his mother's voice, and James just can't do it. Even more so when Harry starts hearing "his father's" voice.
If you don't believe James/Remus could keep important stuff like this secret, just think of everything else we know for a fact he kept to himself. Sirius being an animagi and the map being two of the main ones. He just kinda forgot to mention it, I suppose.
So when Sirius reveals himself as innocent? Well, I think I've explained most of it. I don't know whether the map would should Lupin or James. That's up to you, I guess. If Remus, there's no worries. If James, there's already an explanation in this thread, and I'm not going to repeat it. Only five minutes until bed time...
After Sirius comes back, James sees that Harry has someone to cling to - he doesn't need a father, especially not a crappy one like him. So he leaves them be, and lets them bond. This is true either way, James or Remus. This is why I believe Remus backed off and didn't keep up relations with Harry. James in his time living alone and as a werewolf - an outcast - has become very subdued. Remus is accepted to be subdued to begin with - he doesn't become involved unless he feels he must.
Meanwhile, fourth year strolls
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Lady Kazuma - Sep 4, 2003 7:10 pm (#54 of 528)
Going on...
Meanwhile, fourth year strolls around (what with Hermione and the time turner, time hasn't been strolling very well lately, but now it seems back to normal), and James is still deliberately oblivious. And then Sirius stops by and informs him that Voldemort is back, etc...
Harry still has Dumbledore and Sirius to cling to. All through the year, he does his part, but keeps his distance. He becomes very concern at the proper times.
I think we see a bit of the old James while the Guard is picking up Harry. He's just discovered an extremely depressed son locked up in the place James thought he was safe. He becomes very commanding during that time, and leads the group. He seems very determined to get Harry out of there.
Now, thought, with Sirius dead and Voldemort out in the open, James is going to have a tough time convincing himself that everything is okay, and he shouldn't become involved. I believe this true even if he is Remus. He's going to have to do something.
That's all of that part. I hope it explains how I think it's possible. I haven't got the time to type much else, but here's a copy and paste of something I typed for another thread, which never got posted. I was very upset about the rudeness of some people at the time, which I think shows itself rather nicely in this post:
Even people who think this idea is full of holes should realize that it may lead into other theories and ideas about Remus. The reason why this theory was created in the first place is to explain why Remus acts so oddly. If Remus really was sorry that Harry was in that sitiuation, he could have just told Dumbledore about Sirius. There is something odd about the fact that he didn't. There is something odd about how he reacts to things, and a few of us don't accept that it's just his way. And others should therefore expect that we're going to make up excuses as to why certain things should happen. You may find it absurd, but that gives you no reason to resort to insults and put downs. Instead, you should find something contructive to add that gives those of us who need a better explanation something to go off of.
So that's all (finally. It took more than an hour to type..ack!) I'm 10 minutes past my bedtime. I only sleep for seven hours, and I need all my minutes
Oh well. 'Night all!
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Marye Lupin - Sep 5, 2003 1:53 pm (#55 of 528)
"I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building." Peanuts
Wow! Lady Kazuma (and the rest of you who support this theory) are really making me more and more ready to believe it. But I'm going to play Devil's Advocate for a moment and point out something... I can not believe that James would switch bodies with Remus without letting his wife know (unless it was just for a few hours, and for the SK switch to have taken place it must have been at least several days) Not only is that extremely trusting but I can't imagine Lily wouldn't become suspicious after a while.
I suggest that Lily did know about it. She and Remus then found out something that made Sirius suddenly a not-so-good choice for SK (either because they suspected him or because he was in serious danger, I suspect the latter because Sirius said it was his idea to switch **). The two of them discussed it and then, very reluctantly, and without the means to contact James safely, decided to make the switch. (Sirius meanwhile is unsure as to why Lily and *James* are so reluctant to make the switch).
** Despite the fact that Sirius and James were clearly best friends, they probably didn't aggree on everything. Sirius probably did suspect Remus, but James, being a somewhat better judge of character, disaggreed (it is possible that James suspected Peter a little--not enought to confront him-- but after Peter's seemingly tragic death changed his mind). The fact that Sirius (and supposedly James) suspected Remus has always bugged me because (unless this theory is true and James has been doing a horrible job of immitating Remus and everything we've heard about the guy is false) I can't understand how they could possibly suspect him. Yes, he is a werewolf, but if they've really been terrific friends with the guy since they were 11, they must know it's not in his character.
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zelmia - Sep 5, 2003 2:07 pm (#56 of 528)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I think Prof. Kosh nicked my rebuttals from the EZboard forum. They are nearly verbatim what I said there. But I actually say this out of thanks to him for doing that, as it saves me the trouble of having to retype all of that.
I really don't know how anyone could possibly take this "theory" seriously. I'm sorry, but the parameters of this saga are very distinct. It is not possible to "switch bodies" in this saga. There is no such thing as a "consciousness-switching" spell. The story that immediately comes to mind with this concept is Tale of the Body Thief by Anne Rice, and there are no doubt countless others.
In the Harry Potter series, if characters want to "switch bodies" they use Polyjuice potion; which, I might add, is apparently so difficult to pull off that it warrants having the recipe placed out of general circulation of the student population, or they learn to become Animagi. If characters want to "switch consciousnesses" they use the Imperious Curse, Occlumency, or some other spell that we haven't been told the name of yet. There is absolutely nothing in this saga to even suggest that such a thing might be possible. If so, please give us the page numbers.
One other point: Trelawney's remark about Lupin's having "positively fled" (PA) is uncoroborated by any other character, and also taken out of context. This remark is made by Trelawney herself in her attempt to confirm her "prediction" of Lupin's imminent demise. The full statement is: "He seems to know himself that his time is short. Why, he positively fled when I offered to crystal gaze for him." Thus, we cannot know that this event actually occured (indeed, it is likely that it did not), let alone Lupin's motivation.
In spite of these rebuttals, the only thing we need to know is that James appeared in the Priori Incantatem. He could not have done this if he was still alive. The Priori Incantatem expells the echoes, shadows, essences, spirits, souls, or whatever name you want to give them, of those spells - even Pettigrew's hand appeared there.
James and Lily are dead. They are not coming back.
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Denise P. - Sep 5, 2003 2:11 pm (#57 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Prior to PoA, we would have said the only way for a person to become a stag would have been through transfiguration or a potion similar to polyjuice...hmmm?
I don't see anything in the Potterverse to suggest that a body switching/consciousness switching spell is NOT possible.
I think the theory has merit and the beauty of it that she can never confirm it and it will still hold water. She could be at home, reading this thinking "Dang, first they found the Squid out...now Lupin/James! That is it, I am not going to confirm it and make them mad."
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zelmia - Sep 5, 2003 2:20 pm (#58 of 528)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Yes, but that's exactly my point, Denise. Becoming an animagus is something that was not outside the realm of possibilty
1) because we'd seen McGongall do it and
2) even without her example, we had already been introduced to the concept of Transfiguration in general.
Where, in the HP series has the concept of "Switching consciousness" been suggested?
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Marye Lupin - Sep 5, 2003 2:41 pm (#59 of 528)
"I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building." Peanuts
edit... I wrote this before I saw Zelmia's reply
...and that is probably exactly why she didn't confirm the Squid theory in Book 5 ;-)
These two theories are fun whether they are true or not. You can believe in them or not but so far there is no absolute evidence against either of them. They're fun to think about anyway. Nothing is impossible in Harry Potter. If I had told you after SS/PS that I thought Ron's rat was really one of Harry's father's best friends who betrayed them to Voldemort, is believed dead and is now in hidding as a fat, lazy rodent you'd most likely tell me I was crazy.
(On a completely unrelated side note, once right after PoA came out and I hadn't read it yet, somebody told me that the bad guy was the last person I'd suspect, and, as a joke, I said that I already knew that the evil mastermind behind everything was really Scabbers (who had once been Voldemort's "pet" rat and had wispered his evil commands into Voldy's ear) My friend stared at me for like a minute trying to decide how to respond to that)
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Thom Matheson - Sep 5, 2003 7:39 pm (#60 of 528)
As DD suggests, it is our choices, blah blah, blah, and we choose to debate an undebatable point. A no win thread. Remember when we all spent countless hours disecting the merits of Figg as the next DADA teacher? Many posts with back up data and theories to beat the ban, to help "prove" that she was some great witch that would lead our kids in the classroom. That first chapter on OoP had me laughing out loud. We were all so wrong. Dementors in Surry and Arabella a Squib.
This James and Remus thing will go down as one of the most debated threads along with the Ship Ship nonsense, but boy, do we have fun talking about it.
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Landman - Sep 5, 2003 8:09 pm (#61 of 528)
Zelmia -
James appeared in the Priori Incantatem because it was his body that died - if you read the previous posts this is already explained. Lily would not want to betray the real James (Lupin) in front of Voldemort and the DE's, so she said your father is coming.
Every book, JKR has introduced brand new spells, charms, animals, etc., so how can you possibly say that Switching consciousness does not exist in this universe? Until Book 6 and 7 are on the shelf, we can't say anything about what doesn't exist, because she hasn't written it yet.
This is a Fantasy world, and anything is possible as long as it doesn't directly contradict a known fact.
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Lady Kazuma - Sep 5, 2003 8:17 pm (#62 of 528)
Zelmia: I suppose we just have conflicting views. I've rather led myself to believe that the parameters of the Wizarding World were not distinct, except that nothing could bring someone back to life after they've died. And that's not what we're discussing.
The idea that they could switch 'spirits' or 'cores' or what have you comes from the numerous referneces to Switching Spells, and their complete uselessness up to this point. Hermione describes the simple ones as changing physical things, but I see no reason why an advanced spell couldn't do more powerful things. James was good at Transfiguration. He had a wand made for Transfiguration. I've always been under the impression that you could do more as a master of Transfiguration then become an animagus.
I hate when people immediately disregard anything Trelawney says. She's been more use than just her two predictions, if you really take the time to look. She may have a twisted view of things, but I've never taken her for a liar.
Priori Incantatum brings about an *Echo* nothing else was confirmed. The spell brought an echo of whatever had died - which was James's body, no matter whose spirit was in it at the time. Cedric was an echo, not actually there. Lily was an echo. James was an echo. No spirit was actually drawn from their world by that spell. At least not the way I look at it.
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Professor Kosh - Sep 5, 2003 8:47 pm (#63 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Edited by Denise P. Sep 5, 2003 8:51 pm
Zelmia: Just so you know, I didn't plagerize any post from EZ (in fact, I've never been there. This is my only HP forum!) I just rebutted the 'evidence' as it was presented. A guess great minds think alike!
Trelawney said 'positively fled'. As annoying as most people probably find her, I'd probably flee too! And I'm certainly not James (or am I?). Lupin probably just tried to avoid her when she offered (since she predicts death and suffering for everyone, who wouldn't?), and her pattern of speech put it as 'positively fled'. It is an entirely consistant thing for her to say, yet I'm sure is not literally accurate. I don't think we are disregarding her, but just understanding the likelyhood of the actual event based on her speech patterns and the general response to her character.
I do not argue that a 'soul-switching' spell is impossible. I'm sure it's very possible. That isn't evidence for this theory, though.
The biggest evidence against this theory is that it requires several characters to act 'out of character'.
James (as Lupin) would have to leave his child with the Dursley's without getting him, even after the main threat was over. Any arguement that it was too dangerous is hogwash. Another Fidelus charm, with DD as secret keeper, could easily have protected them both while Harry was younger, as well as between school sessions. It was protection enough during OoP! James also would have had plenty of help, had he needed it. And they certainly would not do the switch without letting Lily know. Lupin (as James) would have had to change the secret keeper without telling the real James, something he would not have done, not without letting someone know where the real James was (DD). Lily would have had to do the same thing, another out of character action (if she knew about the switch). DD would have to keep this information from Harry, something I don't imagine he would do, and certainly not now! "I'm going to tell you everything." -- DD. If this theory were true, he would have told him then.
This theory doesn't hold up because the characters wouldn't act this way. Is there any hard factual reason they couldn't, no. It is possible, but then again, so it the possiblity that Voldemort is Harry's real father. We all know that isn't true, don't we?
Edit: I edited out a line that was not acceptable under the standards set forth by Lexicon Steve. If you have any questions, I can be reached at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Denise P. - Sep 5, 2003 8:49 pm (#64 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Who is to say that James or Lupin would not act this way? Keep in mind how long ago this took place and the event surrounding it. It is possible and like I said, I doubt that this was ever intended to be for more than a few hours but Voldemort kinda changed that little aspect.
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Professor Kosh - Sep 5, 2003 9:54 pm (#65 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Because, as those characters are described, they wouldn't. No father who was as loving as James is described would allow this secret to go on when there was no further need for it. It is possible in only the most technical sense, that there are no physical laws preventing it. But, I simply cannot believe that these characters as described in canon would do the things necessary for this theory to be true.
One further point: Canon states that James and Sirius were unsure of Lupin (as possible traitor, although I can't imagine why). That was one of the reasons he wasn't made secret keeper. If this is so, why on Earth would James switch bodies with Lupin, just when they were getting ready to go under the Fidelus charm? I can't believe I didn't think of this earlier, but this is the strongest evidence against it yet!
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Lady Kazuma - Sep 6, 2003 5:06 am (#66 of 528)
*wonders if she typed for an hour and a half for nothing*
Anyway. Yes, Professor Kosh, if you look at it a certain way, they do appear to be working out of character. But if you look at it another way, they aren't. Circumstances, you see. I'm going to have to write that in every post now, just so people remember.
Where is the Canon reference that both James and Sirius were unsure of Remus? Because if it's Sirius saying so, that doesn't really mean much. Sirius has been known to be wrong. James didn't necessarily have to tell him everything, especially not in that situation. If Remus said it, well, that's interesting in this theory, because, of course, that would mean James said it, and there could be all sorts of reasons for that. If it's something said in narration, like when Harry figures something out, Harry's been wrong before as well. But I would like to know where it is exactly.
(P.S. Circumstances)
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UrbanKat - Sep 6, 2003 7:44 am (#67 of 528)
Nope, sorry. Non of the 'evidence' for this theory seems very goo d to. Remus is Remus, and James is dead. I think his name is probably Remus, (as in Romulus and Remus) because Remus is going to die, as did Remus in the myth.
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Professor Kosh - Sep 6, 2003 5:43 pm (#68 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Urban Kat: I think that he was named Remus because of the wolf-child part of the legend. His death would mirror Sirius too much, I think.
My Lady, the reference is in Chapter 19, pg 372 (American, paperback edition). To paraphrase, Peter asks Lupin why would they have changed Secret Keeper without telling him. Lupin guesses it would be because they suspected him, which Sirius confirms. And, while Sirius has been known to be wrong, I'm sure that the reason for the switch was discussed between James, Sirius, and Peter before they made the change (I don't see James not suggesting that they tell Lupin otherwise. In fact, if James was really Lupin, or even planning it, he would still want to tell Lupin, if only to let the 'real' James know.) They would not have kept the information from Lupin in either case, unless they were unsure of him (monumentally bad judgement, but understandable. Werewolves are Dark creatures, and it is feasible to suspect that Voldemort might have some power over them).
I understand Circumstances, but the evidence against this theory is, IMHO, far more overwhelming than evidence for it.
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W J - Sep 6, 2003 11:44 pm (#69 of 528)
I'm just not buying this theory either. I know a lot of thought has gone into this theory and a lot of you believe it, but I think this is just too complicated for the story and I can't see how it would help the plot at this point for James suddenly to reveal himself in Lupin's body. I trust JKR when she said Harry's parents are dead and not coming back, and I interpret that to mean that they are really dead, body and soul. 'Just my opinion.
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Lady Kazuma - Sep 7, 2003 6:00 pm (#70 of 528)
Okay...allow me to make this a little clearer.
I do *not* believe in this theory. I *do* support the theory. I support the theory because it is the first believable reason I've come across for why Remus acts like he does. I really want to know that, and I'm open to any theories about it. I think this thread should be about that, rather than about everyone who thinks it's impossible coming here and repeating what everyone else has said, even when those who support the theory have already come up with reasons why that is.
I don't mean to be rude...but I'm getting a little tired of repeating information, and I'm sure other people are as well.
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W J - Sep 7, 2003 7:20 pm (#71 of 528)
Lady Kazuma, please do not feel you have to repeat anything you have already said. I read your posts and I understand why you think this theory is a possibility. Some of us just happen to disagree that there is any real evidence. We just interpret it differently. Restating your evidence will not change our minds anymore than our disbelief will change your mind. Let's just agree to disagree and please do not become upset.
Sharing, disagreeing, evolving, agreeing, and debating on theories is what this forum is all about. Every thread will have supporters and nonsupporters posting on the topic. Let's keep it friendly.
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Joost! - Sep 8, 2003 1:31 am (#72 of 528)
Second line of information
When I was thinking about this theory, I came across a question...
Why assume it's James in Lupins body? It could just as well be Lily. Is there evidence that it can only be James and nobody else?
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Slytherin Prefect - Sep 8, 2003 2:26 am (#73 of 528)
Also known as Chuda Jurian of the Snake Clan
>I do *not* believe in this theory. I *do* support the theory. I support the theory because it is the first believable reason I've come across for why Remus acts like he does. I really want to know that, and I'm open to any theories about it. I think this thread should be about that, rather than about everyone who thinks it's impossible coming here and repeating what everyone else has said, even when those who support the theory have already come up with reasons why that is. I don't mean to be rude...but I'm getting a little tired of repeating information, and I'm sure other people are as well. <
I know this frustration rather well. Nearly a year ago, when I first came to the Lexicon Forum, and found an actual place for intelligent discourse in the Harry Potter world, I chose my name, Slytherin Prefect, for a purpose: When my name would be mentioned, I wanted people to think, "That's the guy who talks about what a bunch of hypocrites the Gryffindor house is, and how Slytherin got hosed at the end of Book One."
But instead, I'm the squidman. ^_^
It all started with my frustration over a single question, "Where was the giant squid in the triwizard challenge." Then, a remark in jest, "That tears it, Dumbledore is an unregistered animagus who can turn into a giant squid."
Then I started "supporting" this theory. I found circumstantial evidence to lead to the posibility that Dumbledore might actually be the Giant Squid.
However, before I knew it, there was a following. A large number of people had flocked to this theory and threw their arms around it. I never meant for the squid theory to be anything serious, and yet people were so convinced that Dumbledore was the giant squid when the 'author' of the theory didn't quite believe it himself.
To this day, until Rowling gives us a clear indication whether or not it is true, I'm not going to say that Dumbledore is the giant squid. I honestly think the theory holds water, and even though I don't 'believe' the theory, so to speak, I took great pleasure for the longest time in watching the discourse it caused. The formation of DIGS, and everything that followed, until the squid theory simply became rooted in Lexicon Forum Culture. Anyone who's spent any time at the forum will have heard of the theory.
Hence, why when I'm asked about the squid theory, I call it the "forum's theory" as opposed to "Slytherin Prefect's theory" as many members of the forum still call it today. The theory itself means absolutely nothing to me, but DIGS means a great deal because it has given us something to talk about that no one else in the Harry Potter World is considering.
Which is why I feel, Lady Kazuma, that while you may not 'believe' the theory, it does for whatever reason hold meaning for you. It's important to you in some way.
However, the theory that cannot take dissent and some 'repititions' is a theory which is not worth reading about. People come to this thread to dissent not because they think anyone who champions it is some kind of nutbar - they'd have simply left it alone, as was done with so many meritless theories in the Lexicon past.
Becoming a champion of a theory such as this one simply requires that you sometimes deal with repetitive challenges and the like. I can't tell you the number of times I've had to answer the question "How can Dumbledore be the squid playing in the lake with the Weasley twins when he was off flying to London?" I'm sure that anyone else in the forum who's taken up the DIGS mantle has answered that question numerous times themselves.
Just don't get angry, and don't get discouraged. Take pride in that you have chose to champion a cause which is important enough for people to drop by the theory's thread and post their dissent. ^_^
- Your Friendly Neighborhood Slytherin. Give me your lunch money. ^_^
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Professor Kosh - Sep 8, 2003 3:51 am (#74 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Love that last little line SP!
I agree with what SP said. I'm sure I'm known here as an 'opponent' (or whatever) of this theory. In my posts, I've tried to respond to the evidence presented and offer my take on it, and present any evidence I have to support my position. I sincerly hope no one is taking this as an attack on the person/persons who promote this theory. And I hope I'm not too repetitive, but if the same evidence is repeated, I usually respond with my thoughts on it again as well. To be honest, this is one of my favorite threads!
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 8, 2003 2:10 pm (#75 of 528)
Joost, very interesting take on the theory (Lily) instead of James but I think that the protection spell Lily placed on Harry was effective becasue she sacrificed herself for Harry...if she didn't really die would the spell have been as effective I wonder? Just a question.
As on of the defenders of this theory I don't mind the arguments agianst it except when they turn in to post like "that is a dumb theory, james is dead and that the end of it" I respect those and will disagree with those who take the time to defend why they don't think its true form things in the books. But it's the outright dismissals with no evidence that kind of get to you. Almost everyone who has defended this theory, whether they believe it or not, have had things in the books to back up the arguemenst, it would be nice to see the same form those who disagree.
Personally, I am of the opinion that there needs to be a better explanation of Lupins actions towards Harry other than "he is James old friend". Sirius was just as close, if not closer to James, and his reactions to Harry are not the same as Lupins. Lupin reacts in what seems to be a more emotional way than Sirius.
Also, when they are saying that James and Sirius suspected Lupin might be a traitor, Sirius is speaking for what he thought James was thinking...its call hearsay. James could have told Lupin he suspected Sirius since he came from a dark family. Maybe James and Lupin switched so James could do some investigating that he could not do as himself and in that time Peter betrayed them. Imagine living with the guilt that you were not around to defend your wife and child. Do you honestly think it would be easy to come out of hiding and admit you were not there....and maybe he knew if he didn;t reveal himself at the real James he could continue to investigate what he needed to without anyone hunting him down. It is also possible that many woudl have suspected him as a traitor too since he was still alive.
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Denise P. - Sep 8, 2003 2:56 pm (#76 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Everyone is free to believe or disbelieve this theory as they like. If you believe it, great, put your evidence that supports your belief. If you don't buy it, disregard the thread. Nothing is going to be gained by trying to "prove" anyone right or wrong since it can't be done. There is evidence to support or disprove the theory, depending on your view point.
Now, play nicely with one another. This is discussing a piece of fiction, there is no reason to get upset with anyone. Don't worry, be happy!
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Joost! - Sep 9, 2003 12:49 am (#77 of 528)
Second line of information
If you assume DD doesn't know about the switch, it could be possible that Lupin died and not Lily. The reason Harry survived Voldemorts attack is because his father died for him (James is really dead). But DD thinks both his parents were killed and both gave Harry magical protection. Because Petunia is the only family Harry's got, DD placed him with the Dursleys, thinking Harry would be safe there. But we've never seen this protection at work (or at least we don't know about it), perhaps Harry is as safe at 4 Privet Drive as he is in the Forbidden Forest.
Dumbledore has been wrong before...
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Professor Kosh - Sep 9, 2003 1:33 am (#78 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Bluenote: I agree with your statement about disagreeing with a theory. Simply posting thinks like "that is a dumb theory, james is dead and that the end of it" is very rude. I try to discuss the evidence when I disagree, and hope I succeed at this.
That said, I also agree that Lupin's actions are sometimes puzzling, and you are right that he seems to respond more emotionally than Sirius. However, he could simply be a more emotional person. Sirius was closer (I believe), but he isn't as mature and is psychologically scarred (he was in Azkaban for a long time, with Dementors around all the time).
I don't think Sirius is just saying what James was thinking, I think they discussed it. If they didn't, why would they go with Peter instead of Lupin, unless they suspected Lupin. Lupin was closer to James than Peter.
If James and Lupin suspected Sirius, I think his refusal to be Secret Keeper would have convinced them otherwise:
Were he the traitor, what a better role! Why would Sirius refuse, if he were the traitor?
Sirius says that he convinced James to use Peter. Were he the traitor, why would he do that? I can't see he would.
Sirius said that they changed 'at the last minute' to Peter. That means, James and Lily were ready to go with Sirius. If they suspected him, wouldn't they have gone with their other close (closer than Peter) friend Lupin (rather than do this 'body-switch')?
And again, even if they did the body switch, they wouldn't have changed the Secret Keeper without letting 'Lupin-James' know.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 9, 2003 10:08 am (#79 of 528)
I always assumed that the reason Lupin and/or Sirius was not made the secret keeper in the end had alot to do with the danger each was in as well who was trusted. Sirius and Lupin were better duelers and therefore would be more involved in and fights with voldy and the DE's. Peter was "hopeless" and would have not been so involved and was a safer bet to be the secret keeper as well as the lat person anyone would suspect.
The whole theory evolved because of Lupin reactions to Harry mentioning things with his parents in PoA. I agree Sirius didn't react the same way becasue he might have been emotionally stunted becasue of his time in prison, however even after he had been out for a couple years and was around Harry his reactions were still more detatched than Lupin's. I am erreading OotP and just read the part where Harry contacts Sirius about his dad and talks to both Lupin and Sirius about what he saw in the Pensieve. Lupin seems to really choose his words carefully when talking about James and seemed excited when reminded that James used to play with the Snitch all the time...having read this theory and rereading the Lupin parts gives you a different perpective on those scenes.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 9, 2003 10:37 am (#80 of 528)
Okay...so here is something to think about regarding the James/Lupin thing that might explain "Lupin's" reaction in the shack to Sirius admitting he didn't betray the Potter's...
A few days before the Fidelius Charm is placed on the Potter's, James and Lupin make the theoretical switch so James can do what ever he needs to do. While he is gone, Lily perfoms the Fidelius charm with Sirius, 'James' and Peter present. At the last minute Sirius tells Lily to use Peter instead, and since 'Lupin' is not present he has no idea they switched. Now, in the next week Peter betrays the Potter's to Voldy and they die and Harry defeats Voldy. Sirius goes after Peter since he knows who the person was thay betrayed them. (you notice we never hear where Lupin was during this time ever - i will explain that later) 14 years later they are at the shack when Peter is revealed to be alive and 'Lupin' realizes that his best freind didnt' betray him adn therefore has that reaction by hugging him.
Now, where was Lupin. Its the Secret Keeper charm working at its best....Lupin returns after the charm is placed on the Potters and now he cannot go home. Remember what they said about the Fidelus Charm "you could have look in the window of the house and not see them"? 'Lupin' could not go home becasue the secret keeper did not tell him where to go (Harry had to have a piece of paper with 12 Grimmauld Place written by DD to get in).....during that time it is also possible that he had to endure the real Lupin's ailment and turned in to a werewolf...thus not able to make the switch before Peter betrayed his wife and son and best friend. It is also possible that "Lupin' went to Sirius, who he thought was the secret keeper but when he found him it was too late and Peter had already betrayed the Potter's. (this is unlikely since Sirius never told 'Lupin' who the real secret keeper was)
I hope this makes sense
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Fawkesy Lady - Sep 9, 2003 11:30 am (#81 of 528)
Wow, this is a great thread!!! Does anyone know what the "J" stands for in Remus J. Lupin?
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Mare - Sep 9, 2003 12:34 pm (#82 of 528)
James?
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Marye Lupin - Sep 9, 2003 1:54 pm (#83 of 528)
"I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building." Peanuts
I have something to add to Bluenote's theory: Like I said before, I think that it might have been Sirius, not James, who suspected Lupin, and that because of this Sirius was not let in on the switch. Since 'Lupin' couldn't find his family, he went to the person he thought was Secret Keeper. Sirius was probably very suspicious that 'Lupin' knew who the Secret Keeper was and, in order to try and trick the person he thought was the spy, he "confirmed" that he was Secret Keeper but said that he had sworn not to tell anybody where the Potters were.
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Marye Lupin - Sep 9, 2003 2:07 pm (#84 of 528)
"I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building." Peanuts
Oh, I also have a suggestion of what it was 'Lupin' was doing--he may have been hunting Voldemort. James knew about the prophecy and did not want his son to be put in the position of fighting Voldemort, so he decided to try to track down Voldemort himself. For whatever reason, he failed, returned home early, and ... (add scenario I described in previous post).
This might also explain why Dumbledore was not aware of the switch. Dumbledore, at this time, was not so attatched to little Harry and realized that the kid was going to have to fight Voldemort (and that there was no other way). James might have acted very foolishly in trying to save his son, but people have been known to act irrationally when the lives of people they love are at stake.
P.S. This might also explain why Lily might not have known about the switch since she seems like a less foolish person than her husband and wouldn't have gone along with it. It is my humble opinion that Lily did know about the switch (and this is more of a feeling that James wouldn't let somebody else pretend to be him if his wife didn't know about it) and that she reluctantly went along with it because she knew she couldn't talk James out of it.
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Professor Kosh - Sep 9, 2003 4:15 pm (#85 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Hm....you all have good points. However, I still (perhaps stubbornly) believe that the change in Secret Keepers would not have been done without letting 'James-Lupin' know. If they couldn't contact him directly, they would have let DD know, so DD could let 'James-Lupin' know, or at least told Sirius (whom they all trusted) to tell 'James-Lupin' about the change (Sirius would have approved of such a outrageous plan, and would have been a good choice). If they didn't let 'James-Lupin' know they took the risk that he might never know, and never find his family again. Remember, these were dangerous times, and all of them were in danger.
All that said, the last couple of posts have presented the most plausible case I've heard so far.
If Lily decided to agree to the change of Secret Keeper at Sirius's suggestion,
and if Lily 'didn't' know about the 'body-swap',
and if 'James-Lupin' kept it to himself when Lily agreed to switch because James had sworn him to secrecy about it ("don't tell Lily, she'll KILL me!")
and if James and Lupin had kept Sirius out of the loop about it (although I can't imagine why)
then, the tragic comedy of error necessary for this theory would have been in place.
However, this constellations of actions seem so far-fetched as to be extremely hard to believe (for me). And I still can't imagine any reason why Sirius wouldn't have been told about the 'body-switch'. It is not believable to me for Sirius to have been suspected by James or Lupin, because they were ready to go with him as Secret Keeper, and only changed at the last moments at Sirius's suggestion. I guess if I could figure that out...
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Joost! - Sep 10, 2003 1:39 am (#86 of 528)
Second line of information
I have to agree with Professor Kosh, they knew there was a traitor and they all thought it was Lupin. I don't believe the theory that they already suspected Wormtail and wanted to confront him, that's just irresponsible and stupid. Why lead the Dark Lord to your family to test if someone is a traitor, that's just irresponsible and stupid.
If the switch was made, I can't believe Lupin and James didn't plan on the possibility of the Fidelius Charm shutting James out. Why didn't Lupin contact James about the change in Secret Keeper? I realize that Lupin couldn't tell James where they were hiding, that's how the Fidelius Charm works, but they could've met outside somewhere or Lupin could've sent an owl.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 10, 2003 5:52 am (#87 of 528)
Edited by Sep 10, 2003 5:52 am
Actually...the only person we know of thinking it was Lupin was Sirius. No one ever mentions who James thought the spy was. It is very plausible that he thought it was Sirius, sinc he came from a family of dark wizards.
I agree about the Wormtail thing. I think it is safe to assume that at least Sirius and James/Lupin never suspected Peter as the traitor. Especially Sirius since it was his idea to make the swtich.
Keeping the secret from Lily would have made sense. James was very impuslive and it could have been as simple not tell Lily because they DID know about the prophecy and Lily told James not to go after Voldy. James being who he is aasked Lupin to help (since James suspected Sirius as a traitor) and made Lupin promise not to tell Lily about the switch. At this time they decided to do the Fidelus Charm and James (Lupin) could not tell Lily why they could not do it yet so he was stuck, he had to go along with it. It is not so far fetched really from what we have seen regarding James and Lily so far.
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Joost! - Sep 10, 2003 7:20 am (#88 of 528)
Second line of information
If this theory is correct then we can assume that James knows(!) Lupin wasn't the traitor (you don't leave a suspect with your wife and child). And I guess if he trusted Lupin that much he would tell him who he think to be the traitor, it would be either Sirius or Peter.
If they both suspected Peter at all, I believe, they would agree not to use him as a Secret Keeper. That means they had to know Sirius was the spy, this is impossible because he wasn't.
So there were two suspects and Lupin and James are both to be trusted... Why not use either James or Lupin as SK?
I hope this is clear enough.... I'm not sure.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 10, 2003 8:03 am (#89 of 528)
Edited by Sep 10, 2003 8:04 am
Disregarding who Peter thought was the spy here is how I saw it...from what we know and using this theory...James trusted Lupin and may have thought that Sirius could have been a spy, Sirius thought it was Lupin until Peter showed his true colors, and Lupin, thought Sirius to be the spy...but here is what is tricky...I am not sure that James really suspected anyone....he tursted Lupin well enough to leave him alone with is family and he trusted Sirius enough to let him be the secret keeper. So, he leaves (as Lupin) trusting both his best friends and assuming Sirius is going to be the secret keeper. When he comes back his wife is dead and his son is gone, his friend Lupin (in James' body) is dead and his best friend Sirius betrayed him (or so he thinks) so now he has to live with the guilt of getting his wife and friend killed and living with the fact his was his decision not to use DD as the secret keeper becasue he trusted Sirius. So when they are in the shack and Peter is revealed to be alive the traitor, Lupin (James) reacts in the way he did. His best friend didn't betray him as he had thought.
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Professor Kosh - Sep 10, 2003 10:45 am (#90 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
James trusted Lupin and may have thought that Sirius could have been a spy, Sirius thought it was Lupin until Peter showed his true colors, and Lupin, thought Sirius to be the spy...but here is what is tricky...I am not sure that James really suspected anyone....he tursted Lupin well enough to leave him alone with is family and he trusted Sirius enough to let him be the secret keeper
If Lupin thought Sirius were the spy, he would discuss it with James (to protect him). If James then trusted Lupin enough to switch bodies, then James would have to trust his suspicions and not go with Black as Secret Keeper. But we know that it was Black who got them to change, so this assumption cannot be correct.
If James trusted Lupin and suspected Black, then Lupin would likely be the secret keeper (or Peter). But he wasn't considered, so this is incorrect.
If James were going to leave his family in Lupin's care for a period which they were going to undergo the Fedieus Charm, then Lupin would not have changed the secret keeper without telling James or finding a way to let him know (through DD would be the most obvious). "Lupin"'s body did not know, so this assumption cannot be correct.
If Sirius thought Lupin were the spy, he also would have confided in James. So, this makes it extremely likely that James discussed it with Sirius, and kept Lupin out of the loop. Of the three we discussed above, this is the only one that fits the facts as we know them, without a lot of 'accidents' and stretches of possibility.
Its a very interesting theory, but it just doesn't fit. Lupin may very likely have a reason he behaves a bit off from what most expect given what we know, but the explanations for Lupin to really be James are so convoluted! It seems too much like a soap opera...
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zelmia - Sep 10, 2003 11:34 am (#91 of 528)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
1) Neither James nor Lily could have appeared in the Priori Incantatem if they were not dead. Cedric says "Harry, take my body back to my parents" which perfectly clarifies that it is Cedric's spirit/essence - and not his corporeal form - who makes this request.
2) What kind of a person would sacrifice his whole family in such a way as was done on that Halloween night? And for what purpose? Thus far in this discussion there has been no legitimate purpose for why this sort of spell - assuming that it is even possible - would have been cast in the first place. Regardless, I can't see a character sacrificing his entire family - particularly his infant child - for any reason. I think the reality is that the Potters felt they were perfectly safe in using the Fidelius Charm. But unfortunately, it backfired.
On a personal note, what is so mysterious about Lupin? Other than the fact that he is a werewolf, and the fact that everyone he's ever gotten close to has either died or been sent to prison or ... died. I just don't see his character as being all that enigmatic.
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Landman - Sep 10, 2003 12:27 pm (#92 of 528)
Zelmia,
Go back and read post #1 on this thread - that explains all the odd things about Lupin. Regarding your points:
1.) James and Lily's bodies are dead, so that is why they show up in the Priori Incantatem, but James spirit/soul is inside of Lupin. The spirit inside of James is really Lupin and he is the one who talks to Harry.
2.) He obviously didn't think he would be sacrificing anything. They had a plan that didn't work out.
I challenge everyone to give me factual reasons why this theory is Impossible. So far, everyone has come up with ideas for maybe this and maybe that, but in the world we currently know about, given all the canon facts, this theory is Possible. No matter how unlikely you think it may be, it is still possible.
Why it's possible:
Switching spells exist (we don't know all about them yet) and in a world of magic, everything is possible unless we are told it can't be done.
James, Lily, and Lupin knew each other and had contact with each other.
That is all that is needed to make this possible - I didn't say likely, just possible. So, I guess I'd like everyone to not dismiss this as having no merit at all. Go ahead and present your case, but don't say it's not possible.
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Detail Seeker - Sep 10, 2003 12:58 pm (#93 of 528)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
As far as I read the arguments in this thread, my summary is:
All the evidence in favour of the starting theory can be explained by other, more likely assumptions. But you are right, we cannot falsify the theory at the moment. The Priori Incantatus is closest to falsify this theory, but again we do not know enough about the mechanisms of this spell: If you kill an animagus in animagus form - will the person murdered appear on the PI or will the animagus appear. The answer to this question may decide about your theory, Landman.
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Lady Kazuma - Sep 10, 2003 1:16 pm (#94 of 528)
A few things.
Firstly, I'm sorry I got upset, I really am. But, you must understand, I'm seventeen, female, and it was somewhere around 5 am. You will not find a 5 am when a seventeen year old female is not moody. Not being male, I'm not sure how they would act at 5 am. I apologize.
Secondly, *gives Slytherin Prefect a great big hug and hands over a galleon* Thank you so much. You made me feel a lot better!
Thirdly, For those of you who question why "James" would not tell Dumbledore about their switching secret-keepers, if only to get the information to "Remus"...I can just picture Dumbledore's reaction:
"So, let me get this straight. You're telling me that you changed secret keepers from Sirius, on Sirius's suggestion, to Peter. Obviously you trust both of them. So you want me to tell Remus? So you trust him too? Okay...then who's the spy?"
If "James" then told him about the soul-switching, Dumbledore would have stopped James from going after Voldemort, if that's what you believe. Sorry, there's no way for that to have worked out right. "James" wouldn't be able to let "Remus" in on the secret-keeper-switch if "Remus" wasn't there to tell.
That's all for now...I need a nap
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 10, 2003 1:41 pm (#95 of 528)
Lady Kazuma, I am not sure I understand your question. We know that the Marauder's were able to hide things from DD fairly easily and the reason James and Lupin didn't tell DD about the switch in bodies is exactly what you stated... he would have stopped them.
the basic premise is that they made the switch without telling anyone for some mysterious reason.... which has yet to be determined/revealed. My theory is that is was so James (as Lupin) could get more info he would no be able to any other way, as himself.
Also, keep in mind that James could have suspect that Sirius was the traitor... all we know is that it was Sirius' idea to switch to Peter... we never hear why other than he was the least likely candidate. It is also possible that as Lupin (as James when the Fidelius charms was place) made a comment about not fully trusting Sirius and he suggested using Peter to make sure that Sirius could not betray the Potter's.
This theory is very easy to dismiss because it is a complicated story to get to WHY they made the switch. We know NOTHING about what the Potter's did for a living to leave Harry with all the money and JKR had mentioned in an old interview I believe that their jobs when they died are critical to the story. We have two books to find out what is going on.... argue if you want but at least keep an open mind about the theory. We have seen nothing to prove it cannot be possible. Just as I have that DD is the squid (despite the illogical nature of a giant squid being his animagus)
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Madam Poppy - Sep 10, 2003 2:59 pm (#96 of 528)
Kirsten Valleskey
Edited by Sep 10, 2003 3:01 pm
I thought I'd join in the theory dueling. I was totally convinced of the Lupin is James theory when I read it, but became a little skeptical after Book 5 when Prof. Lupin did not seem to make any effort to even speak with Harry when given the opportunity. Having said that, I always thought it was odd during the Priori Incantatem when it says, "Do it now," whispered his father's voice, "be ready to run..." Why didn't JKR write, "whispered his father"? Was this her way of telling us that the voice was James but the ghost was Lupin? Hmmmmm?
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Marye Lupin - Sep 10, 2003 3:54 pm (#97 of 528)
"I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building." Peanuts
Going back a little...
"It is not believable to me for Sirius to have been suspected by James or Lupin, because they were ready to go with him as Secret Keeper, and only changed at the last moments at Sirius's suggestion."
Alright, before I start I am fairly certain that James trusted Sirius completely. However I don't think Sirius trusted Lupin. As I mentioned before best friends (even friends as close as James and Sirius) do not always agree on everything. My guess if that this had been the subject of many debates up to this point. Dumbledore had probably given them what Sirius considered undeniable evidence that someone in their group was the spy. He knew he wasn't the spy (and it's pretty clear James wasn't) and he didn't consider Peter a threat at all (we observed through Sirius's refusal to admit that Kreacher might be a threat that he tends to underestimate some people/house-elves).
James, however did not consider the evidence undeniable (as we have demonstrated countless times on both this thread and others, nothing is completely impossible) and refused to believe any of his best friends would betray him (Remember James, unlike Sirius, grew up in a good family, and he isn't used to being betrayed by people he's supposed to trust).
Knowing how Sirius felt about Lupin, and not wanting Sirius to do anything rash if he thought Lupin was in a position to be a threat, James would probably have kept the switch from Sirius. Was this a serious mistake? yes, but James is not perfect, he was most likely acting out of fear for his family, and he did not expect Sirius to change their plans by making Peter SK.
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Maollelujah - Sep 10, 2003 10:00 pm (#98 of 528)
The problem with this theory there is no factual evidence that it happened. It is merely a based on a couple interpretations, several hopes, a mysterious soul-switching spell, and a complete lack of any facts.
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Professor Kosh - Sep 11, 2003 12:29 am (#99 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
All the evidence in favour of the ...theory can be explained by other, more likely assumptions. But you are right, we cannot falsify the theory at the moment
I think this truly gets to the heart of it. As I have said before, this theory is technically possible, as others have said as well. However, to fit it in with available canon requires an inordinately complicated series of events, several instances of mistrust between suppossedly very close friends, and the continuing keeping of this 'secret' from DD or Harry, regardless of the circumstances. These assumptions could happen, but there are more likely assumptions.
We'll just have to see how it plays out in the last two books. Who knows?
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Joost! - Sep 11, 2003 1:14 am (#100 of 528)
Second line of information
Hence the name "Theory", if there was factual evidence it would be called a fact. In my opinion we have enough clues to discuss this theory seriously.
No, Lupin never said: "Harry, I am your father.", but he also never said: "Harry, I am NOT your father, there is no such thing as a soul-switching spell."
It seems more logical to me that Lupin is Lupin and James is dead, but then I also found it logical that cars can't fly and broom are used to sweep the floor...
I'm still don't believe the theory, though.
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Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
True, Harry might NOW be safer at the Dursleys, but again, he was not in that much danger after most of the DE were imprisoned or killed. If Lupin were James, he would be very irresponsible not to ask DD for him back. Even if DD said no, then DD would know and Harry would have been told by now! And, that still doesn't address mischa fan's point that Lupin wouldn't take it on himself to change the Secret Keeper without telling James or (if James-Lupin were unreachable) at least DD.
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Hem Hem - Sep 4, 2003 5:30 pm (#52 of 528)
If Lupin is really Harry's dad, he should be at least trying to maintain the relationship they developed in PoA. Even that much doesn't seem to be happening.
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Lady Kazuma - Sep 4, 2003 7:09 pm (#53 of 528)
I feel a long-winded post coming on...ack, nearly my bedtime...
Allow me to address a few topics brought up, and then introduce an idea or two of my own:
Basically, they all knew there was a spy in the group of four. Everyone did rather assume it wasn't James spying on himself, so that leaves three. Consider from now on that Sirius thought Remus was the spy, Lily thought Sirius was the spy, Peter really was the spy, and James thought Peter was the spy.
Why? Sirius thought Remus was the spy because that's what he told Harry. I don't know why exactly, but that is a fact. Lily would think Sirius possible for being the spy because she would know that James is biased toward him, she would know Sirius's history, and he doesn't act like Mister Innocent anyway. Peter was the spy, unless some really weird twist shows up (My crazy theory - James was the spy. But I won't go into that...) James thought Peter was the spy because, well, he was. There would have to be at least some indication that he was.
So, James arranges for Sirius to be made secret-keeper, then switches himself with Remus. James was extremely talented in Transfiguration, so I think he would have been able to cast an advanced form of the switching spell to do so. James does not tell Lily about this, nor Sirius, nor Dumbledore, nor anyone but Remus.
But why would he do it?
This depends a lot of circumstance, which I just can't get over when I'm trying to support theories. It's impossible to prove if there was one circumstance or another, but here are a few possibilities:
1.) James had something very important to do, but couldn't leave hiding to do it. I was never able to understand how James would have handled being locked up like that all the time. The intention wasn't just for a week - He'd have been forced to stay as long as there was danger from Voldemort.
2.) For the above reasons, James just had to get out, maybe it was just supposed to be temporary. I always took it that Sirius really had been the secret-keeper at one point, but then convinced 'James' and Lily to change after awhile. Why would Peter and Voldemort take a week or more to reveal the secret/perform the attack.
3.) Whatever reason they came up with in the Ultimate..yada-yada-yada...Guide. I read it, but I can't remember just know, nor can I remember where I put my book.
To be honest, this is the hardest part for me when supporting this theory. You can shoot down any theory I post in regards to this, but it really does depend on circumstances.
Anyway, so they've changed, and James now goes off and does whatever, and Remus is stuck in hiding with Lily and Harry. Remus however, either doesn't know that James suspects Peter, or comes up with different evidence against Sirius, and he *and Lily* decide to change to Peter. After all, I love the man, but I wouldn't trust him with my secrets, he seems sort of like Hagrid with that... Meanwhile, Lily has no idea she's no longer with her husband.
Next, we all know what happens.
So Baby!Harry is sent to live with his Aunt and Uncle, whom Lily really didn't seem all that close to, so why would James know much about them? James would initially want to claim Harry, and I'm sure he asked Dumbledore. Dumbledore would have explained his reasons, the protection Harry had there, and whatever else Dumbledore has to say about it, and James decided that that was the safest place for Harry. After all, Dumbledore and the Order knew that Voldemort wasn't dead, and there were definatly Death Eaters still on the loose. Just look at what happened to the Longbottoms, how many years after the fact? Just when everyone was starting to feel safe. That may have been the final factor for James in leaving Harry with the Dursleys, where he was ensured safety.
Why wouldn't James reveal himself as James? Would you believe him? I don't think I would. First of all, James is now a werewolf, just as effectively as if he'd been bitten, except he didn't have to go through that. People don't trust werewolves worth anything, that's already been made obvious. Everyone would decide he's insane. Secondly, so far as everyone knows, Remus's three best friends were just betrayed and killed by the fourth. And by Remus's best friends, I mean only friends. Remus would have been a very lonely and sad guy, probably living by himself off away from everyone else somewhere in a cottage or shack or something. Again, everyone would decide he's gone mad. Thirdly, James really has just been given a heavy blow. He put one of his friends in grave danger, and they died because of it. Sirius, to James's knowledge, betrayed him - his wife had been right, he'd been blind about it, and now his wife was dead, his friends were dead, and his son would suffer without a proper family. Also, he suspected Hero!Peter of being a traitor, when he was driven into a tearful rage and attacked the real traitor in James's name for the sake of James's revenge. James is feeling awfully guilty by now. So he doesn't tell, and for whatever reason (either Dumbledore's protections, or his own worries) he can't get close to his son as he's growing up. Well, neither did Remus, that's not so far-fetched.
And Harry grows up and goes to school, and I doubt he really knows much about what's happening to him there. No one seemed to know about Quirrel or Riddle, and I doubt Dumbledore would have given all the details to Remus, either, so James wouldn't know his son was in danger. So far as he knew, the plan was still working, and Harry was now safer than ever - he's learning magic at Hogwarts now, after all.
So on flows time, and all the sudden Sirius Black escapes from Azkaban. It's one of James's worst fears come true. The man he trusted beyond anyone (even Dumbledore), and who betrayed that trust so horribly is now loose, and said to be after Harry. I believe Dumbledore approached Remus for the job, and forced him to accept. And I believe James would jump at the chance, even if he is still frightened of what could happen.
James may be, at this point, all ready to spill his guts out to Harry about the truth. He has every intention of doing it. He first sees Harry on the train ride (because I don't believe he was actually asleep the whole time, whether he was James or Remus), and takes the time to adjust himself to seeing him. I think that would be necessary before facing someone you helped create, that you've never really met before, and who looks eerily like you are supposed to look.
So what stops James from spilling his secret? The dementors. James sees how tormented Harry is by his parents death, but also that he's accepting of it. He's hearing his mother's voice, and James just can't do it. Even more so when Harry starts hearing "his father's" voice.
If you don't believe James/Remus could keep important stuff like this secret, just think of everything else we know for a fact he kept to himself. Sirius being an animagi and the map being two of the main ones. He just kinda forgot to mention it, I suppose.
So when Sirius reveals himself as innocent? Well, I think I've explained most of it. I don't know whether the map would should Lupin or James. That's up to you, I guess. If Remus, there's no worries. If James, there's already an explanation in this thread, and I'm not going to repeat it. Only five minutes until bed time...
After Sirius comes back, James sees that Harry has someone to cling to - he doesn't need a father, especially not a crappy one like him. So he leaves them be, and lets them bond. This is true either way, James or Remus. This is why I believe Remus backed off and didn't keep up relations with Harry. James in his time living alone and as a werewolf - an outcast - has become very subdued. Remus is accepted to be subdued to begin with - he doesn't become involved unless he feels he must.
Meanwhile, fourth year strolls
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Lady Kazuma - Sep 4, 2003 7:10 pm (#54 of 528)
Going on...
Meanwhile, fourth year strolls around (what with Hermione and the time turner, time hasn't been strolling very well lately, but now it seems back to normal), and James is still deliberately oblivious. And then Sirius stops by and informs him that Voldemort is back, etc...
Harry still has Dumbledore and Sirius to cling to. All through the year, he does his part, but keeps his distance. He becomes very concern at the proper times.
I think we see a bit of the old James while the Guard is picking up Harry. He's just discovered an extremely depressed son locked up in the place James thought he was safe. He becomes very commanding during that time, and leads the group. He seems very determined to get Harry out of there.
Now, thought, with Sirius dead and Voldemort out in the open, James is going to have a tough time convincing himself that everything is okay, and he shouldn't become involved. I believe this true even if he is Remus. He's going to have to do something.
That's all of that part. I hope it explains how I think it's possible. I haven't got the time to type much else, but here's a copy and paste of something I typed for another thread, which never got posted. I was very upset about the rudeness of some people at the time, which I think shows itself rather nicely in this post:
Even people who think this idea is full of holes should realize that it may lead into other theories and ideas about Remus. The reason why this theory was created in the first place is to explain why Remus acts so oddly. If Remus really was sorry that Harry was in that sitiuation, he could have just told Dumbledore about Sirius. There is something odd about the fact that he didn't. There is something odd about how he reacts to things, and a few of us don't accept that it's just his way. And others should therefore expect that we're going to make up excuses as to why certain things should happen. You may find it absurd, but that gives you no reason to resort to insults and put downs. Instead, you should find something contructive to add that gives those of us who need a better explanation something to go off of.
So that's all (finally. It took more than an hour to type..ack!) I'm 10 minutes past my bedtime. I only sleep for seven hours, and I need all my minutes
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Marye Lupin - Sep 5, 2003 1:53 pm (#55 of 528)
"I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building." Peanuts
Wow! Lady Kazuma (and the rest of you who support this theory) are really making me more and more ready to believe it. But I'm going to play Devil's Advocate for a moment and point out something... I can not believe that James would switch bodies with Remus without letting his wife know (unless it was just for a few hours, and for the SK switch to have taken place it must have been at least several days) Not only is that extremely trusting but I can't imagine Lily wouldn't become suspicious after a while.
I suggest that Lily did know about it. She and Remus then found out something that made Sirius suddenly a not-so-good choice for SK (either because they suspected him or because he was in serious danger, I suspect the latter because Sirius said it was his idea to switch **). The two of them discussed it and then, very reluctantly, and without the means to contact James safely, decided to make the switch. (Sirius meanwhile is unsure as to why Lily and *James* are so reluctant to make the switch).
** Despite the fact that Sirius and James were clearly best friends, they probably didn't aggree on everything. Sirius probably did suspect Remus, but James, being a somewhat better judge of character, disaggreed (it is possible that James suspected Peter a little--not enought to confront him-- but after Peter's seemingly tragic death changed his mind). The fact that Sirius (and supposedly James) suspected Remus has always bugged me because (unless this theory is true and James has been doing a horrible job of immitating Remus and everything we've heard about the guy is false) I can't understand how they could possibly suspect him. Yes, he is a werewolf, but if they've really been terrific friends with the guy since they were 11, they must know it's not in his character.
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zelmia - Sep 5, 2003 2:07 pm (#56 of 528)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I think Prof. Kosh nicked my rebuttals from the EZboard forum. They are nearly verbatim what I said there. But I actually say this out of thanks to him for doing that, as it saves me the trouble of having to retype all of that.
I really don't know how anyone could possibly take this "theory" seriously. I'm sorry, but the parameters of this saga are very distinct. It is not possible to "switch bodies" in this saga. There is no such thing as a "consciousness-switching" spell. The story that immediately comes to mind with this concept is Tale of the Body Thief by Anne Rice, and there are no doubt countless others.
In the Harry Potter series, if characters want to "switch bodies" they use Polyjuice potion; which, I might add, is apparently so difficult to pull off that it warrants having the recipe placed out of general circulation of the student population, or they learn to become Animagi. If characters want to "switch consciousnesses" they use the Imperious Curse, Occlumency, or some other spell that we haven't been told the name of yet. There is absolutely nothing in this saga to even suggest that such a thing might be possible. If so, please give us the page numbers.
One other point: Trelawney's remark about Lupin's having "positively fled" (PA) is uncoroborated by any other character, and also taken out of context. This remark is made by Trelawney herself in her attempt to confirm her "prediction" of Lupin's imminent demise. The full statement is: "He seems to know himself that his time is short. Why, he positively fled when I offered to crystal gaze for him." Thus, we cannot know that this event actually occured (indeed, it is likely that it did not), let alone Lupin's motivation.
In spite of these rebuttals, the only thing we need to know is that James appeared in the Priori Incantatem. He could not have done this if he was still alive. The Priori Incantatem expells the echoes, shadows, essences, spirits, souls, or whatever name you want to give them, of those spells - even Pettigrew's hand appeared there.
James and Lily are dead. They are not coming back.
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Denise P. - Sep 5, 2003 2:11 pm (#57 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Prior to PoA, we would have said the only way for a person to become a stag would have been through transfiguration or a potion similar to polyjuice...hmmm?
I don't see anything in the Potterverse to suggest that a body switching/consciousness switching spell is NOT possible.
I think the theory has merit and the beauty of it that she can never confirm it and it will still hold water. She could be at home, reading this thinking "Dang, first they found the Squid out...now Lupin/James! That is it, I am not going to confirm it and make them mad."
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zelmia - Sep 5, 2003 2:20 pm (#58 of 528)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Yes, but that's exactly my point, Denise. Becoming an animagus is something that was not outside the realm of possibilty
1) because we'd seen McGongall do it and
2) even without her example, we had already been introduced to the concept of Transfiguration in general.
Where, in the HP series has the concept of "Switching consciousness" been suggested?
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Marye Lupin - Sep 5, 2003 2:41 pm (#59 of 528)
"I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building." Peanuts
edit... I wrote this before I saw Zelmia's reply
...and that is probably exactly why she didn't confirm the Squid theory in Book 5 ;-)
These two theories are fun whether they are true or not. You can believe in them or not but so far there is no absolute evidence against either of them. They're fun to think about anyway. Nothing is impossible in Harry Potter. If I had told you after SS/PS that I thought Ron's rat was really one of Harry's father's best friends who betrayed them to Voldemort, is believed dead and is now in hidding as a fat, lazy rodent you'd most likely tell me I was crazy.
(On a completely unrelated side note, once right after PoA came out and I hadn't read it yet, somebody told me that the bad guy was the last person I'd suspect, and, as a joke, I said that I already knew that the evil mastermind behind everything was really Scabbers (who had once been Voldemort's "pet" rat and had wispered his evil commands into Voldy's ear) My friend stared at me for like a minute trying to decide how to respond to that)
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Thom Matheson - Sep 5, 2003 7:39 pm (#60 of 528)
As DD suggests, it is our choices, blah blah, blah, and we choose to debate an undebatable point. A no win thread. Remember when we all spent countless hours disecting the merits of Figg as the next DADA teacher? Many posts with back up data and theories to beat the ban, to help "prove" that she was some great witch that would lead our kids in the classroom. That first chapter on OoP had me laughing out loud. We were all so wrong. Dementors in Surry and Arabella a Squib.
This James and Remus thing will go down as one of the most debated threads along with the Ship Ship nonsense, but boy, do we have fun talking about it.
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Landman - Sep 5, 2003 8:09 pm (#61 of 528)
Zelmia -
James appeared in the Priori Incantatem because it was his body that died - if you read the previous posts this is already explained. Lily would not want to betray the real James (Lupin) in front of Voldemort and the DE's, so she said your father is coming.
Every book, JKR has introduced brand new spells, charms, animals, etc., so how can you possibly say that Switching consciousness does not exist in this universe? Until Book 6 and 7 are on the shelf, we can't say anything about what doesn't exist, because she hasn't written it yet.
This is a Fantasy world, and anything is possible as long as it doesn't directly contradict a known fact.
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Lady Kazuma - Sep 5, 2003 8:17 pm (#62 of 528)
Zelmia: I suppose we just have conflicting views. I've rather led myself to believe that the parameters of the Wizarding World were not distinct, except that nothing could bring someone back to life after they've died. And that's not what we're discussing.
The idea that they could switch 'spirits' or 'cores' or what have you comes from the numerous referneces to Switching Spells, and their complete uselessness up to this point. Hermione describes the simple ones as changing physical things, but I see no reason why an advanced spell couldn't do more powerful things. James was good at Transfiguration. He had a wand made for Transfiguration. I've always been under the impression that you could do more as a master of Transfiguration then become an animagus.
I hate when people immediately disregard anything Trelawney says. She's been more use than just her two predictions, if you really take the time to look. She may have a twisted view of things, but I've never taken her for a liar.
Priori Incantatum brings about an *Echo* nothing else was confirmed. The spell brought an echo of whatever had died - which was James's body, no matter whose spirit was in it at the time. Cedric was an echo, not actually there. Lily was an echo. James was an echo. No spirit was actually drawn from their world by that spell. At least not the way I look at it.
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Professor Kosh - Sep 5, 2003 8:47 pm (#63 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Edited by Denise P. Sep 5, 2003 8:51 pm
Zelmia: Just so you know, I didn't plagerize any post from EZ (in fact, I've never been there. This is my only HP forum!) I just rebutted the 'evidence' as it was presented. A guess great minds think alike!
Trelawney said 'positively fled'. As annoying as most people probably find her, I'd probably flee too! And I'm certainly not James (or am I?). Lupin probably just tried to avoid her when she offered (since she predicts death and suffering for everyone, who wouldn't?), and her pattern of speech put it as 'positively fled'. It is an entirely consistant thing for her to say, yet I'm sure is not literally accurate. I don't think we are disregarding her, but just understanding the likelyhood of the actual event based on her speech patterns and the general response to her character.
I do not argue that a 'soul-switching' spell is impossible. I'm sure it's very possible. That isn't evidence for this theory, though.
The biggest evidence against this theory is that it requires several characters to act 'out of character'.
James (as Lupin) would have to leave his child with the Dursley's without getting him, even after the main threat was over. Any arguement that it was too dangerous is hogwash. Another Fidelus charm, with DD as secret keeper, could easily have protected them both while Harry was younger, as well as between school sessions. It was protection enough during OoP! James also would have had plenty of help, had he needed it. And they certainly would not do the switch without letting Lily know. Lupin (as James) would have had to change the secret keeper without telling the real James, something he would not have done, not without letting someone know where the real James was (DD). Lily would have had to do the same thing, another out of character action (if she knew about the switch). DD would have to keep this information from Harry, something I don't imagine he would do, and certainly not now! "I'm going to tell you everything." -- DD. If this theory were true, he would have told him then.
This theory doesn't hold up because the characters wouldn't act this way. Is there any hard factual reason they couldn't, no. It is possible, but then again, so it the possiblity that Voldemort is Harry's real father. We all know that isn't true, don't we?
Edit: I edited out a line that was not acceptable under the standards set forth by Lexicon Steve. If you have any questions, I can be reached at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Denise P. - Sep 5, 2003 8:49 pm (#64 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Who is to say that James or Lupin would not act this way? Keep in mind how long ago this took place and the event surrounding it. It is possible and like I said, I doubt that this was ever intended to be for more than a few hours but Voldemort kinda changed that little aspect.
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Professor Kosh - Sep 5, 2003 9:54 pm (#65 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Because, as those characters are described, they wouldn't. No father who was as loving as James is described would allow this secret to go on when there was no further need for it. It is possible in only the most technical sense, that there are no physical laws preventing it. But, I simply cannot believe that these characters as described in canon would do the things necessary for this theory to be true.
One further point: Canon states that James and Sirius were unsure of Lupin (as possible traitor, although I can't imagine why). That was one of the reasons he wasn't made secret keeper. If this is so, why on Earth would James switch bodies with Lupin, just when they were getting ready to go under the Fidelus charm? I can't believe I didn't think of this earlier, but this is the strongest evidence against it yet!
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Lady Kazuma - Sep 6, 2003 5:06 am (#66 of 528)
*wonders if she typed for an hour and a half for nothing*
Anyway. Yes, Professor Kosh, if you look at it a certain way, they do appear to be working out of character. But if you look at it another way, they aren't. Circumstances, you see. I'm going to have to write that in every post now, just so people remember.
Where is the Canon reference that both James and Sirius were unsure of Remus? Because if it's Sirius saying so, that doesn't really mean much. Sirius has been known to be wrong. James didn't necessarily have to tell him everything, especially not in that situation. If Remus said it, well, that's interesting in this theory, because, of course, that would mean James said it, and there could be all sorts of reasons for that. If it's something said in narration, like when Harry figures something out, Harry's been wrong before as well. But I would like to know where it is exactly.
(P.S. Circumstances)
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UrbanKat - Sep 6, 2003 7:44 am (#67 of 528)
Nope, sorry. Non of the 'evidence' for this theory seems very goo d to. Remus is Remus, and James is dead. I think his name is probably Remus, (as in Romulus and Remus) because Remus is going to die, as did Remus in the myth.
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Professor Kosh - Sep 6, 2003 5:43 pm (#68 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Urban Kat: I think that he was named Remus because of the wolf-child part of the legend. His death would mirror Sirius too much, I think.
My Lady, the reference is in Chapter 19, pg 372 (American, paperback edition). To paraphrase, Peter asks Lupin why would they have changed Secret Keeper without telling him. Lupin guesses it would be because they suspected him, which Sirius confirms. And, while Sirius has been known to be wrong, I'm sure that the reason for the switch was discussed between James, Sirius, and Peter before they made the change (I don't see James not suggesting that they tell Lupin otherwise. In fact, if James was really Lupin, or even planning it, he would still want to tell Lupin, if only to let the 'real' James know.) They would not have kept the information from Lupin in either case, unless they were unsure of him (monumentally bad judgement, but understandable. Werewolves are Dark creatures, and it is feasible to suspect that Voldemort might have some power over them).
I understand Circumstances, but the evidence against this theory is, IMHO, far more overwhelming than evidence for it.
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W J - Sep 6, 2003 11:44 pm (#69 of 528)
I'm just not buying this theory either. I know a lot of thought has gone into this theory and a lot of you believe it, but I think this is just too complicated for the story and I can't see how it would help the plot at this point for James suddenly to reveal himself in Lupin's body. I trust JKR when she said Harry's parents are dead and not coming back, and I interpret that to mean that they are really dead, body and soul. 'Just my opinion.
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Lady Kazuma - Sep 7, 2003 6:00 pm (#70 of 528)
Okay...allow me to make this a little clearer.
I do *not* believe in this theory. I *do* support the theory. I support the theory because it is the first believable reason I've come across for why Remus acts like he does. I really want to know that, and I'm open to any theories about it. I think this thread should be about that, rather than about everyone who thinks it's impossible coming here and repeating what everyone else has said, even when those who support the theory have already come up with reasons why that is.
I don't mean to be rude...but I'm getting a little tired of repeating information, and I'm sure other people are as well.
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W J - Sep 7, 2003 7:20 pm (#71 of 528)
Lady Kazuma, please do not feel you have to repeat anything you have already said. I read your posts and I understand why you think this theory is a possibility. Some of us just happen to disagree that there is any real evidence. We just interpret it differently. Restating your evidence will not change our minds anymore than our disbelief will change your mind. Let's just agree to disagree and please do not become upset.
Sharing, disagreeing, evolving, agreeing, and debating on theories is what this forum is all about. Every thread will have supporters and nonsupporters posting on the topic. Let's keep it friendly.
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Joost! - Sep 8, 2003 1:31 am (#72 of 528)
Second line of information
When I was thinking about this theory, I came across a question...
Why assume it's James in Lupins body? It could just as well be Lily. Is there evidence that it can only be James and nobody else?
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Slytherin Prefect - Sep 8, 2003 2:26 am (#73 of 528)
Also known as Chuda Jurian of the Snake Clan
>I do *not* believe in this theory. I *do* support the theory. I support the theory because it is the first believable reason I've come across for why Remus acts like he does. I really want to know that, and I'm open to any theories about it. I think this thread should be about that, rather than about everyone who thinks it's impossible coming here and repeating what everyone else has said, even when those who support the theory have already come up with reasons why that is. I don't mean to be rude...but I'm getting a little tired of repeating information, and I'm sure other people are as well. <
I know this frustration rather well. Nearly a year ago, when I first came to the Lexicon Forum, and found an actual place for intelligent discourse in the Harry Potter world, I chose my name, Slytherin Prefect, for a purpose: When my name would be mentioned, I wanted people to think, "That's the guy who talks about what a bunch of hypocrites the Gryffindor house is, and how Slytherin got hosed at the end of Book One."
But instead, I'm the squidman. ^_^
It all started with my frustration over a single question, "Where was the giant squid in the triwizard challenge." Then, a remark in jest, "That tears it, Dumbledore is an unregistered animagus who can turn into a giant squid."
Then I started "supporting" this theory. I found circumstantial evidence to lead to the posibility that Dumbledore might actually be the Giant Squid.
However, before I knew it, there was a following. A large number of people had flocked to this theory and threw their arms around it. I never meant for the squid theory to be anything serious, and yet people were so convinced that Dumbledore was the giant squid when the 'author' of the theory didn't quite believe it himself.
To this day, until Rowling gives us a clear indication whether or not it is true, I'm not going to say that Dumbledore is the giant squid. I honestly think the theory holds water, and even though I don't 'believe' the theory, so to speak, I took great pleasure for the longest time in watching the discourse it caused. The formation of DIGS, and everything that followed, until the squid theory simply became rooted in Lexicon Forum Culture. Anyone who's spent any time at the forum will have heard of the theory.
Hence, why when I'm asked about the squid theory, I call it the "forum's theory" as opposed to "Slytherin Prefect's theory" as many members of the forum still call it today. The theory itself means absolutely nothing to me, but DIGS means a great deal because it has given us something to talk about that no one else in the Harry Potter World is considering.
Which is why I feel, Lady Kazuma, that while you may not 'believe' the theory, it does for whatever reason hold meaning for you. It's important to you in some way.
However, the theory that cannot take dissent and some 'repititions' is a theory which is not worth reading about. People come to this thread to dissent not because they think anyone who champions it is some kind of nutbar - they'd have simply left it alone, as was done with so many meritless theories in the Lexicon past.
Becoming a champion of a theory such as this one simply requires that you sometimes deal with repetitive challenges and the like. I can't tell you the number of times I've had to answer the question "How can Dumbledore be the squid playing in the lake with the Weasley twins when he was off flying to London?" I'm sure that anyone else in the forum who's taken up the DIGS mantle has answered that question numerous times themselves.
Just don't get angry, and don't get discouraged. Take pride in that you have chose to champion a cause which is important enough for people to drop by the theory's thread and post their dissent. ^_^
- Your Friendly Neighborhood Slytherin. Give me your lunch money. ^_^
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Professor Kosh - Sep 8, 2003 3:51 am (#74 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Love that last little line SP!
I agree with what SP said. I'm sure I'm known here as an 'opponent' (or whatever) of this theory. In my posts, I've tried to respond to the evidence presented and offer my take on it, and present any evidence I have to support my position. I sincerly hope no one is taking this as an attack on the person/persons who promote this theory. And I hope I'm not too repetitive, but if the same evidence is repeated, I usually respond with my thoughts on it again as well. To be honest, this is one of my favorite threads!
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 8, 2003 2:10 pm (#75 of 528)
Joost, very interesting take on the theory (Lily) instead of James but I think that the protection spell Lily placed on Harry was effective becasue she sacrificed herself for Harry...if she didn't really die would the spell have been as effective I wonder? Just a question.
As on of the defenders of this theory I don't mind the arguments agianst it except when they turn in to post like "that is a dumb theory, james is dead and that the end of it" I respect those and will disagree with those who take the time to defend why they don't think its true form things in the books. But it's the outright dismissals with no evidence that kind of get to you. Almost everyone who has defended this theory, whether they believe it or not, have had things in the books to back up the arguemenst, it would be nice to see the same form those who disagree.
Personally, I am of the opinion that there needs to be a better explanation of Lupins actions towards Harry other than "he is James old friend". Sirius was just as close, if not closer to James, and his reactions to Harry are not the same as Lupins. Lupin reacts in what seems to be a more emotional way than Sirius.
Also, when they are saying that James and Sirius suspected Lupin might be a traitor, Sirius is speaking for what he thought James was thinking...its call hearsay. James could have told Lupin he suspected Sirius since he came from a dark family. Maybe James and Lupin switched so James could do some investigating that he could not do as himself and in that time Peter betrayed them. Imagine living with the guilt that you were not around to defend your wife and child. Do you honestly think it would be easy to come out of hiding and admit you were not there....and maybe he knew if he didn;t reveal himself at the real James he could continue to investigate what he needed to without anyone hunting him down. It is also possible that many woudl have suspected him as a traitor too since he was still alive.
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Denise P. - Sep 8, 2003 2:56 pm (#76 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Everyone is free to believe or disbelieve this theory as they like. If you believe it, great, put your evidence that supports your belief. If you don't buy it, disregard the thread. Nothing is going to be gained by trying to "prove" anyone right or wrong since it can't be done. There is evidence to support or disprove the theory, depending on your view point.
Now, play nicely with one another. This is discussing a piece of fiction, there is no reason to get upset with anyone. Don't worry, be happy!
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Joost! - Sep 9, 2003 12:49 am (#77 of 528)
Second line of information
If you assume DD doesn't know about the switch, it could be possible that Lupin died and not Lily. The reason Harry survived Voldemorts attack is because his father died for him (James is really dead). But DD thinks both his parents were killed and both gave Harry magical protection. Because Petunia is the only family Harry's got, DD placed him with the Dursleys, thinking Harry would be safe there. But we've never seen this protection at work (or at least we don't know about it), perhaps Harry is as safe at 4 Privet Drive as he is in the Forbidden Forest.
Dumbledore has been wrong before...
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Professor Kosh - Sep 9, 2003 1:33 am (#78 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Bluenote: I agree with your statement about disagreeing with a theory. Simply posting thinks like "that is a dumb theory, james is dead and that the end of it" is very rude. I try to discuss the evidence when I disagree, and hope I succeed at this.
That said, I also agree that Lupin's actions are sometimes puzzling, and you are right that he seems to respond more emotionally than Sirius. However, he could simply be a more emotional person. Sirius was closer (I believe), but he isn't as mature and is psychologically scarred (he was in Azkaban for a long time, with Dementors around all the time).
I don't think Sirius is just saying what James was thinking, I think they discussed it. If they didn't, why would they go with Peter instead of Lupin, unless they suspected Lupin. Lupin was closer to James than Peter.
If James and Lupin suspected Sirius, I think his refusal to be Secret Keeper would have convinced them otherwise:
Were he the traitor, what a better role! Why would Sirius refuse, if he were the traitor?
Sirius says that he convinced James to use Peter. Were he the traitor, why would he do that? I can't see he would.
Sirius said that they changed 'at the last minute' to Peter. That means, James and Lily were ready to go with Sirius. If they suspected him, wouldn't they have gone with their other close (closer than Peter) friend Lupin (rather than do this 'body-switch')?
And again, even if they did the body switch, they wouldn't have changed the Secret Keeper without letting 'Lupin-James' know.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 9, 2003 10:08 am (#79 of 528)
I always assumed that the reason Lupin and/or Sirius was not made the secret keeper in the end had alot to do with the danger each was in as well who was trusted. Sirius and Lupin were better duelers and therefore would be more involved in and fights with voldy and the DE's. Peter was "hopeless" and would have not been so involved and was a safer bet to be the secret keeper as well as the lat person anyone would suspect.
The whole theory evolved because of Lupin reactions to Harry mentioning things with his parents in PoA. I agree Sirius didn't react the same way becasue he might have been emotionally stunted becasue of his time in prison, however even after he had been out for a couple years and was around Harry his reactions were still more detatched than Lupin's. I am erreading OotP and just read the part where Harry contacts Sirius about his dad and talks to both Lupin and Sirius about what he saw in the Pensieve. Lupin seems to really choose his words carefully when talking about James and seemed excited when reminded that James used to play with the Snitch all the time...having read this theory and rereading the Lupin parts gives you a different perpective on those scenes.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 9, 2003 10:37 am (#80 of 528)
Okay...so here is something to think about regarding the James/Lupin thing that might explain "Lupin's" reaction in the shack to Sirius admitting he didn't betray the Potter's...
A few days before the Fidelius Charm is placed on the Potter's, James and Lupin make the theoretical switch so James can do what ever he needs to do. While he is gone, Lily perfoms the Fidelius charm with Sirius, 'James' and Peter present. At the last minute Sirius tells Lily to use Peter instead, and since 'Lupin' is not present he has no idea they switched. Now, in the next week Peter betrays the Potter's to Voldy and they die and Harry defeats Voldy. Sirius goes after Peter since he knows who the person was thay betrayed them. (you notice we never hear where Lupin was during this time ever - i will explain that later) 14 years later they are at the shack when Peter is revealed to be alive and 'Lupin' realizes that his best freind didnt' betray him adn therefore has that reaction by hugging him.
Now, where was Lupin. Its the Secret Keeper charm working at its best....Lupin returns after the charm is placed on the Potters and now he cannot go home. Remember what they said about the Fidelus Charm "you could have look in the window of the house and not see them"? 'Lupin' could not go home becasue the secret keeper did not tell him where to go (Harry had to have a piece of paper with 12 Grimmauld Place written by DD to get in).....during that time it is also possible that he had to endure the real Lupin's ailment and turned in to a werewolf...thus not able to make the switch before Peter betrayed his wife and son and best friend. It is also possible that "Lupin' went to Sirius, who he thought was the secret keeper but when he found him it was too late and Peter had already betrayed the Potter's. (this is unlikely since Sirius never told 'Lupin' who the real secret keeper was)
I hope this makes sense
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Fawkesy Lady - Sep 9, 2003 11:30 am (#81 of 528)
Wow, this is a great thread!!! Does anyone know what the "J" stands for in Remus J. Lupin?
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Mare - Sep 9, 2003 12:34 pm (#82 of 528)
James?
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Marye Lupin - Sep 9, 2003 1:54 pm (#83 of 528)
"I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building." Peanuts
I have something to add to Bluenote's theory: Like I said before, I think that it might have been Sirius, not James, who suspected Lupin, and that because of this Sirius was not let in on the switch. Since 'Lupin' couldn't find his family, he went to the person he thought was Secret Keeper. Sirius was probably very suspicious that 'Lupin' knew who the Secret Keeper was and, in order to try and trick the person he thought was the spy, he "confirmed" that he was Secret Keeper but said that he had sworn not to tell anybody where the Potters were.
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Marye Lupin - Sep 9, 2003 2:07 pm (#84 of 528)
"I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building." Peanuts
Oh, I also have a suggestion of what it was 'Lupin' was doing--he may have been hunting Voldemort. James knew about the prophecy and did not want his son to be put in the position of fighting Voldemort, so he decided to try to track down Voldemort himself. For whatever reason, he failed, returned home early, and ... (add scenario I described in previous post).
This might also explain why Dumbledore was not aware of the switch. Dumbledore, at this time, was not so attatched to little Harry and realized that the kid was going to have to fight Voldemort (and that there was no other way). James might have acted very foolishly in trying to save his son, but people have been known to act irrationally when the lives of people they love are at stake.
P.S. This might also explain why Lily might not have known about the switch since she seems like a less foolish person than her husband and wouldn't have gone along with it. It is my humble opinion that Lily did know about the switch (and this is more of a feeling that James wouldn't let somebody else pretend to be him if his wife didn't know about it) and that she reluctantly went along with it because she knew she couldn't talk James out of it.
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Professor Kosh - Sep 9, 2003 4:15 pm (#85 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Hm....you all have good points. However, I still (perhaps stubbornly) believe that the change in Secret Keepers would not have been done without letting 'James-Lupin' know. If they couldn't contact him directly, they would have let DD know, so DD could let 'James-Lupin' know, or at least told Sirius (whom they all trusted) to tell 'James-Lupin' about the change (Sirius would have approved of such a outrageous plan, and would have been a good choice). If they didn't let 'James-Lupin' know they took the risk that he might never know, and never find his family again. Remember, these were dangerous times, and all of them were in danger.
All that said, the last couple of posts have presented the most plausible case I've heard so far.
If Lily decided to agree to the change of Secret Keeper at Sirius's suggestion,
and if Lily 'didn't' know about the 'body-swap',
and if 'James-Lupin' kept it to himself when Lily agreed to switch because James had sworn him to secrecy about it ("don't tell Lily, she'll KILL me!")
and if James and Lupin had kept Sirius out of the loop about it (although I can't imagine why)
then, the tragic comedy of error necessary for this theory would have been in place.
However, this constellations of actions seem so far-fetched as to be extremely hard to believe (for me). And I still can't imagine any reason why Sirius wouldn't have been told about the 'body-switch'. It is not believable to me for Sirius to have been suspected by James or Lupin, because they were ready to go with him as Secret Keeper, and only changed at the last moments at Sirius's suggestion. I guess if I could figure that out...
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Joost! - Sep 10, 2003 1:39 am (#86 of 528)
Second line of information
I have to agree with Professor Kosh, they knew there was a traitor and they all thought it was Lupin. I don't believe the theory that they already suspected Wormtail and wanted to confront him, that's just irresponsible and stupid. Why lead the Dark Lord to your family to test if someone is a traitor, that's just irresponsible and stupid.
If the switch was made, I can't believe Lupin and James didn't plan on the possibility of the Fidelius Charm shutting James out. Why didn't Lupin contact James about the change in Secret Keeper? I realize that Lupin couldn't tell James where they were hiding, that's how the Fidelius Charm works, but they could've met outside somewhere or Lupin could've sent an owl.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 10, 2003 5:52 am (#87 of 528)
Edited by Sep 10, 2003 5:52 am
Actually...the only person we know of thinking it was Lupin was Sirius. No one ever mentions who James thought the spy was. It is very plausible that he thought it was Sirius, sinc he came from a family of dark wizards.
I agree about the Wormtail thing. I think it is safe to assume that at least Sirius and James/Lupin never suspected Peter as the traitor. Especially Sirius since it was his idea to make the swtich.
Keeping the secret from Lily would have made sense. James was very impuslive and it could have been as simple not tell Lily because they DID know about the prophecy and Lily told James not to go after Voldy. James being who he is aasked Lupin to help (since James suspected Sirius as a traitor) and made Lupin promise not to tell Lily about the switch. At this time they decided to do the Fidelus Charm and James (Lupin) could not tell Lily why they could not do it yet so he was stuck, he had to go along with it. It is not so far fetched really from what we have seen regarding James and Lily so far.
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Joost! - Sep 10, 2003 7:20 am (#88 of 528)
Second line of information
If this theory is correct then we can assume that James knows(!) Lupin wasn't the traitor (you don't leave a suspect with your wife and child). And I guess if he trusted Lupin that much he would tell him who he think to be the traitor, it would be either Sirius or Peter.
If they both suspected Peter at all, I believe, they would agree not to use him as a Secret Keeper. That means they had to know Sirius was the spy, this is impossible because he wasn't.
So there were two suspects and Lupin and James are both to be trusted... Why not use either James or Lupin as SK?
I hope this is clear enough.... I'm not sure.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 10, 2003 8:03 am (#89 of 528)
Edited by Sep 10, 2003 8:04 am
Disregarding who Peter thought was the spy here is how I saw it...from what we know and using this theory...James trusted Lupin and may have thought that Sirius could have been a spy, Sirius thought it was Lupin until Peter showed his true colors, and Lupin, thought Sirius to be the spy...but here is what is tricky...I am not sure that James really suspected anyone....he tursted Lupin well enough to leave him alone with is family and he trusted Sirius enough to let him be the secret keeper. So, he leaves (as Lupin) trusting both his best friends and assuming Sirius is going to be the secret keeper. When he comes back his wife is dead and his son is gone, his friend Lupin (in James' body) is dead and his best friend Sirius betrayed him (or so he thinks) so now he has to live with the guilt of getting his wife and friend killed and living with the fact his was his decision not to use DD as the secret keeper becasue he trusted Sirius. So when they are in the shack and Peter is revealed to be alive the traitor, Lupin (James) reacts in the way he did. His best friend didn't betray him as he had thought.
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Professor Kosh - Sep 10, 2003 10:45 am (#90 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
James trusted Lupin and may have thought that Sirius could have been a spy, Sirius thought it was Lupin until Peter showed his true colors, and Lupin, thought Sirius to be the spy...but here is what is tricky...I am not sure that James really suspected anyone....he tursted Lupin well enough to leave him alone with is family and he trusted Sirius enough to let him be the secret keeper
If Lupin thought Sirius were the spy, he would discuss it with James (to protect him). If James then trusted Lupin enough to switch bodies, then James would have to trust his suspicions and not go with Black as Secret Keeper. But we know that it was Black who got them to change, so this assumption cannot be correct.
If James trusted Lupin and suspected Black, then Lupin would likely be the secret keeper (or Peter). But he wasn't considered, so this is incorrect.
If James were going to leave his family in Lupin's care for a period which they were going to undergo the Fedieus Charm, then Lupin would not have changed the secret keeper without telling James or finding a way to let him know (through DD would be the most obvious). "Lupin"'s body did not know, so this assumption cannot be correct.
If Sirius thought Lupin were the spy, he also would have confided in James. So, this makes it extremely likely that James discussed it with Sirius, and kept Lupin out of the loop. Of the three we discussed above, this is the only one that fits the facts as we know them, without a lot of 'accidents' and stretches of possibility.
Its a very interesting theory, but it just doesn't fit. Lupin may very likely have a reason he behaves a bit off from what most expect given what we know, but the explanations for Lupin to really be James are so convoluted! It seems too much like a soap opera...
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zelmia - Sep 10, 2003 11:34 am (#91 of 528)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
1) Neither James nor Lily could have appeared in the Priori Incantatem if they were not dead. Cedric says "Harry, take my body back to my parents" which perfectly clarifies that it is Cedric's spirit/essence - and not his corporeal form - who makes this request.
2) What kind of a person would sacrifice his whole family in such a way as was done on that Halloween night? And for what purpose? Thus far in this discussion there has been no legitimate purpose for why this sort of spell - assuming that it is even possible - would have been cast in the first place. Regardless, I can't see a character sacrificing his entire family - particularly his infant child - for any reason. I think the reality is that the Potters felt they were perfectly safe in using the Fidelius Charm. But unfortunately, it backfired.
On a personal note, what is so mysterious about Lupin? Other than the fact that he is a werewolf, and the fact that everyone he's ever gotten close to has either died or been sent to prison or ... died. I just don't see his character as being all that enigmatic.
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Landman - Sep 10, 2003 12:27 pm (#92 of 528)
Zelmia,
Go back and read post #1 on this thread - that explains all the odd things about Lupin. Regarding your points:
1.) James and Lily's bodies are dead, so that is why they show up in the Priori Incantatem, but James spirit/soul is inside of Lupin. The spirit inside of James is really Lupin and he is the one who talks to Harry.
2.) He obviously didn't think he would be sacrificing anything. They had a plan that didn't work out.
I challenge everyone to give me factual reasons why this theory is Impossible. So far, everyone has come up with ideas for maybe this and maybe that, but in the world we currently know about, given all the canon facts, this theory is Possible. No matter how unlikely you think it may be, it is still possible.
Why it's possible:
Switching spells exist (we don't know all about them yet) and in a world of magic, everything is possible unless we are told it can't be done.
James, Lily, and Lupin knew each other and had contact with each other.
That is all that is needed to make this possible - I didn't say likely, just possible. So, I guess I'd like everyone to not dismiss this as having no merit at all. Go ahead and present your case, but don't say it's not possible.
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Detail Seeker - Sep 10, 2003 12:58 pm (#93 of 528)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
As far as I read the arguments in this thread, my summary is:
All the evidence in favour of the starting theory can be explained by other, more likely assumptions. But you are right, we cannot falsify the theory at the moment. The Priori Incantatus is closest to falsify this theory, but again we do not know enough about the mechanisms of this spell: If you kill an animagus in animagus form - will the person murdered appear on the PI or will the animagus appear. The answer to this question may decide about your theory, Landman.
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Lady Kazuma - Sep 10, 2003 1:16 pm (#94 of 528)
A few things.
Firstly, I'm sorry I got upset, I really am. But, you must understand, I'm seventeen, female, and it was somewhere around 5 am. You will not find a 5 am when a seventeen year old female is not moody. Not being male, I'm not sure how they would act at 5 am. I apologize.
Secondly, *gives Slytherin Prefect a great big hug and hands over a galleon* Thank you so much. You made me feel a lot better!
Thirdly, For those of you who question why "James" would not tell Dumbledore about their switching secret-keepers, if only to get the information to "Remus"...I can just picture Dumbledore's reaction:
"So, let me get this straight. You're telling me that you changed secret keepers from Sirius, on Sirius's suggestion, to Peter. Obviously you trust both of them. So you want me to tell Remus? So you trust him too? Okay...then who's the spy?"
If "James" then told him about the soul-switching, Dumbledore would have stopped James from going after Voldemort, if that's what you believe. Sorry, there's no way for that to have worked out right. "James" wouldn't be able to let "Remus" in on the secret-keeper-switch if "Remus" wasn't there to tell.
That's all for now...I need a nap
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 10, 2003 1:41 pm (#95 of 528)
Lady Kazuma, I am not sure I understand your question. We know that the Marauder's were able to hide things from DD fairly easily and the reason James and Lupin didn't tell DD about the switch in bodies is exactly what you stated... he would have stopped them.
the basic premise is that they made the switch without telling anyone for some mysterious reason.... which has yet to be determined/revealed. My theory is that is was so James (as Lupin) could get more info he would no be able to any other way, as himself.
Also, keep in mind that James could have suspect that Sirius was the traitor... all we know is that it was Sirius' idea to switch to Peter... we never hear why other than he was the least likely candidate. It is also possible that as Lupin (as James when the Fidelius charms was place) made a comment about not fully trusting Sirius and he suggested using Peter to make sure that Sirius could not betray the Potter's.
This theory is very easy to dismiss because it is a complicated story to get to WHY they made the switch. We know NOTHING about what the Potter's did for a living to leave Harry with all the money and JKR had mentioned in an old interview I believe that their jobs when they died are critical to the story. We have two books to find out what is going on.... argue if you want but at least keep an open mind about the theory. We have seen nothing to prove it cannot be possible. Just as I have that DD is the squid (despite the illogical nature of a giant squid being his animagus)
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Madam Poppy - Sep 10, 2003 2:59 pm (#96 of 528)
Kirsten Valleskey
Edited by Sep 10, 2003 3:01 pm
I thought I'd join in the theory dueling. I was totally convinced of the Lupin is James theory when I read it, but became a little skeptical after Book 5 when Prof. Lupin did not seem to make any effort to even speak with Harry when given the opportunity. Having said that, I always thought it was odd during the Priori Incantatem when it says, "Do it now," whispered his father's voice, "be ready to run..." Why didn't JKR write, "whispered his father"? Was this her way of telling us that the voice was James but the ghost was Lupin? Hmmmmm?
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Marye Lupin - Sep 10, 2003 3:54 pm (#97 of 528)
"I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building." Peanuts
Going back a little...
"It is not believable to me for Sirius to have been suspected by James or Lupin, because they were ready to go with him as Secret Keeper, and only changed at the last moments at Sirius's suggestion."
Alright, before I start I am fairly certain that James trusted Sirius completely. However I don't think Sirius trusted Lupin. As I mentioned before best friends (even friends as close as James and Sirius) do not always agree on everything. My guess if that this had been the subject of many debates up to this point. Dumbledore had probably given them what Sirius considered undeniable evidence that someone in their group was the spy. He knew he wasn't the spy (and it's pretty clear James wasn't) and he didn't consider Peter a threat at all (we observed through Sirius's refusal to admit that Kreacher might be a threat that he tends to underestimate some people/house-elves).
James, however did not consider the evidence undeniable (as we have demonstrated countless times on both this thread and others, nothing is completely impossible) and refused to believe any of his best friends would betray him (Remember James, unlike Sirius, grew up in a good family, and he isn't used to being betrayed by people he's supposed to trust).
Knowing how Sirius felt about Lupin, and not wanting Sirius to do anything rash if he thought Lupin was in a position to be a threat, James would probably have kept the switch from Sirius. Was this a serious mistake? yes, but James is not perfect, he was most likely acting out of fear for his family, and he did not expect Sirius to change their plans by making Peter SK.
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Maollelujah - Sep 10, 2003 10:00 pm (#98 of 528)
The problem with this theory there is no factual evidence that it happened. It is merely a based on a couple interpretations, several hopes, a mysterious soul-switching spell, and a complete lack of any facts.
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Professor Kosh - Sep 11, 2003 12:29 am (#99 of 528)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
All the evidence in favour of the ...theory can be explained by other, more likely assumptions. But you are right, we cannot falsify the theory at the moment
I think this truly gets to the heart of it. As I have said before, this theory is technically possible, as others have said as well. However, to fit it in with available canon requires an inordinately complicated series of events, several instances of mistrust between suppossedly very close friends, and the continuing keeping of this 'secret' from DD or Harry, regardless of the circumstances. These assumptions could happen, but there are more likely assumptions.
We'll just have to see how it plays out in the last two books. Who knows?
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Joost! - Sep 11, 2003 1:14 am (#100 of 528)
Second line of information
Hence the name "Theory", if there was factual evidence it would be called a fact. In my opinion we have enough clues to discuss this theory seriously.
No, Lupin never said: "Harry, I am your father.", but he also never said: "Harry, I am NOT your father, there is no such thing as a soul-switching spell."
It seems more logical to me that Lupin is Lupin and James is dead, but then I also found it logical that cars can't fly and broom are used to sweep the floor...
I'm still don't believe the theory, though.
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Lupin is really James Potter (Post 101 to 150)
Elanor Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:00 pm
Madam Pince - Sep 11, 2003 1:25 am (#101 of 528)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
What an interesting theory, and how fun to discuss it! That's what makes a debate fun, isn't it -- can't be proven or disproven? I mean, the threads that die out here on the Forum are the ones that start out with a question, someone answers, and then it's "Oh yeah. I didn't notice that. Oh well." What fun is that?
Anyway, I look at the question not so much from the viewpoint of character analysis, but rather from author analysis. I believe that one of the major themes of this series is death and how you deal with it. Someone (HemHem I think) said way back in this thread that this theory would sort of cheapen the whole theme/"lesson" of dealing with death. I agree, and I don't think JKR would do that. So while it COULD be true that Lupin is James, I would be very disappointed if it turns out that way.
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Joost! - Sep 11, 2003 2:08 am (#102 of 528)
Second line of information
I'm not sure if JKR wants to "teach" us anything. I just think she's writing a fantastic story about a boy in a strange world.
But I would also be disappointed if Lupin turns out to be James, because a lot of people saw it coming. That's not what we all expect from her, do we? We want her to invent plot changes that make her readers think: "WHAT?!! Oh wait, she was hinting towards that all along. How blind am I that I didn't notice that."
I reckon she knows about this theory, so she could change her mind and never write about it, although she planned to.
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Mindy - Sep 11, 2003 3:57 am (#103 of 528)
Exactly. Pinta said why would James/Lupin leave Harry at the Dursleys'? Plus, there would also be that blood bond magic Dumbledore talks about. Why doesn't Harry stay with him instead?
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 11, 2003 6:19 am (#104 of 528)
Edited by Sep 11, 2003 6:21 am
The blood bond is formed becasue Lily dies protecting Harry and Petunia is her only remaining blood relative. But this brings up LOADS of other questions. Where was the rest of her family? Where was James' family?
I agree that JKR is probably trying to teach something in the stories but she is also an author with an incredible imagination. ANYTHING is possible in her world. So to say that a swithcing spell cannot be used to do this...well we have not seen many of the spells mentioned in use yet. If you go back and reread the books the one spell mentioned more than any other that we have never really seen in use is the Switching Spell. (yes i know it was mentioned in GoF with the changing a dragons teeth to something else, but we never saw it used)
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Fawkesy Lady - Sep 11, 2003 8:33 am (#105 of 528)
This thread is absolutely addicting. One day I am for James is Lupin and the next, I am totally against it. The original message of the thread states some of Lupin's reactions to Harry, for example in PoA (chapter 10 Maurader's Map), when Harry tells Lupin that he can hear Voldemore murdering his mum. JKR writes, "Lupin made a sudden motion with his arm as though to grip Harry's shoulder, but though better of it." This theory suggests that because it is James, he flinches because Harry is talking about his mum. You can also look at it that Harry doesn't know that Lupin knew his mum and Lupin does not share that fact with Harry at that time, so he restrains himself. Looking at the context in the book does help put things in perspective. One phrase quoted in the book here in the forum can be taken out of context. Just thought I'd bring it up. Though I do enjoy reading everyones ideas about this theory.
Fawkesy Lady xoxo
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 11, 2003 8:52 am (#106 of 528)
Edited by Sep 11, 2003 8:53 am
I would say I agree with you Fawkesy...but there is more than that one anecedote abuot Lupin's reacions to Harry. There is the one when Harry is finally able to produce the Patronus and its a stag (James animagus). I think the quote reads something about Lupin runnig towards him 'shaken' or somehting like that...along with a few more instances of Lupin reacting odd to to Harry mentioning his mom and dad. Also, JKR goes to great lengths in her descriptions of people that is cannot be disregarded as a throw away...for instance when she decribes Sirius as having a 'barking laugh' we know what she is doing.
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Fawkesy Lady - Sep 11, 2003 9:53 am (#107 of 528)
Good point Blue! I would be curious to see JKR's thoughts on this theory?
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Hazell Tole - Sep 11, 2003 11:04 am (#108 of 528)
I like the sound of this!
I could agree with the theory about James' soul being in Lupin's body but I don't think that they would of swapped. I haven't heard whether wizards can do this but if they could, surely two minds would be better than one!
The reason I could believe James is hiding is because we know it can happen as Lord Voldemort did the same thing with professor Quirrell. Anyway, to make himself known as James would be disastrous because Lord Voldemort is still out there. He might be gaining strength like Lord Voldemort did but I am not sure whether this could be, as Lupin would have to die if james came fully back. But maybe Lupin would be prepared to do this because what sort of life has he got being a warewolf and I suppose you have to give anything a go to assure Lord Vodemort's fall?!?!?
So many questions and thoughts, its like dominoes in a way.
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Madam Poppy - Sep 11, 2003 12:45 pm (#109 of 528)
Kirsten Valleskey
Edited by Sep 11, 2003 12:46 pm
I think that once the Lupin is James Theory was published in the Ultimate Guide to Harry Potter, that killed any chance of it ever being put into the books.
JKR wants her readers to be surprised. Look at all the recent Book 5 secrecy and security. She has said that one or two people have come close to figuring out the ending of the series but no one has guessed it so far. I believe that Lupins coolness towards Harry in Book 5 shows that JKR dropped Lupin is James and we now may never know if we were right.
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Landman - Sep 11, 2003 1:04 pm (#110 of 528)
You may be right Madam Poppy, although she said in some cases there is no turning back now -- she can't undo some of the plot points, so if someone guesses correctly, she'll have to live with it.
Thinking along the same lines, if she does turn away from this theory, here's an alternate version:
It's possible that Lupin had access to James Pensieve and Lupin may have taken what memories were inside the Pensieve after James died. This could also explain Lupin's emotional reactions to Harry, because he has potentially some very profound memories living inside his head.
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S.E. Jones - Sep 11, 2003 1:14 pm (#111 of 528)
Let it snow!
Can I ask an honest question? What is the purpose of this theory in the context of the story? To see a living form of James or to give Lupin's presence in the books some importance and meaning?
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 11, 2003 2:22 pm (#112 of 528)
I think it is to give the story a wrap up that no one can really see coming to be honest. Right now the end is Harry killing Voldemort or being killed...not a very good prospect for the series. It is even mentioned at the end of OotP. When Harry leaves Hagrids and sits by lake alone he is reflecting on the fact he wil either have to commit a murder or be murdered. I think the Lupin as James theories gives the chance that their might be a 'happy' ending for Harry, reunited with his father in what ever form.
ALTHOUGH....I do think by printing it in the Guide book it may have diminshed the chances of it being bore out in the remaining books and JKR has given a way out becasue she never really gave OBVIOUS clues to Jmaes as Lupin, it has all been speculation. I am sure if it doesn't happen we will never find out it was supposed too...
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Maollelujah - Sep 11, 2003 5:27 pm (#113 of 528)
If you go back and reread the books the one spell mentioned more than any other that we have never really seen in use is the Switching Spell. (yes i know it was mentioned in GoF with the changing a dragons teeth to something else, but we never saw it used)
I think we have seen the switching spell in many times in Mrs. McGonnagal's classes, everytime they try to change one object into another. In their first class they try to change a match into a needle. Second year it is a beetle into a button etc...
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Denise P. - Sep 11, 2003 5:49 pm (#114 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
While Switching Spells are mentioned, what is being taught in McGonnagal's class is Transfiguration. They may be related but they are not the same thing. In her class, they are transfiguring, not switching.
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Maollelujah - Sep 11, 2003 6:04 pm (#115 of 528)
While Switching Spells are mentioned, what is being taught in McGonnagal's class is Transfiguration. They may be related but they are not the same thing. In her class, they are transfiguring, not switching.
"Don't you care about Gryffindor, do you only care about yourselves, I don't want Slytherin to win the house cup, and you'll lose all the points I got from Professor McGonagall for knowing about Switching Spells." Hermione says this in the first book.
Also in the fourth book:
"Longbottom, kindly do not reveal that you can't even perform a simple Switching Spell in front of anyone from Durmstrang!" Professor McGonagall barked at the end of one particularly difficult lesson, during which Neville had accidentally transplanted his own ears onto a cactus.
So I believe switching spells are a type of Transfigure spell.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 12, 2003 5:43 am (#116 of 528)
Once again....the spells are mentioned but we never see them in use.
Hermoine knows alot of stuff, and it could have been a simple question in the class if any knows what a switching spell is.
As far as McGonagall's comment I have always had a different view about that comment than others. What if there ARE levels of each spell? Her comment instead of meaning that the Switching Spell, in general, is simple...means that at this point (thier forth) year, Neville should be able to do a simple or basic switching spell, maybe they learn advanced switching spell later on in school.
Also, her comment shows that you can, at least, transfer parts of the human body to inanimate objects. It is such a stretch to believe that a really advanced wizard could use a switching spell to do what is mentioned in the theory?
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Matt Allair - Sep 12, 2003 11:13 pm (#117 of 528)
'Mischief Managed.......Not! (Nox)'
Going back to Professor Kosh, I really have to commend his arguments and all of the others who support this theory. In the past, I've have a couple of friendly disagreements with Denise P. about this theory.
For myself, why I haven't agreed with the theory had to do with human nature and a persons paternal instincts.
If James was in Lupin's body, wouldn't it take an incredible amount of self control to never reveal oneself? Can anyone expect a father who has never seen his only son in twelve years, to not find himself falling out of character?
Can you imagine someone going mad with grief, being in a body that changes into a werewolf, with the knowledge of his wife's death and his best friend? How could such a person stay sane and levelheaded?
My impression was that James was an impulsive person and the flashback on OOP helps to reinforce that impression. I just have a hard time with the idea that Remus / James could spend nine months in the same school with his son, while having the kind of restraint we see in POA.
In addition, how could Dumbledore not have suspected anything when agreeing to have Lupin teach for the semester? While arguemts have been made to answer that question. I still have to wonder if Dumbledore would have a suspicion that a switching spell was performed.
Just friendly little two Knuts on the matter. I kindly agree to disagree, to each his own.
Matt A.
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Mrs. Sirius - Sep 14, 2003 10:44 pm (#118 of 528)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
This theory has been around for a while and have read much of the "evidence" to support it.
It is a very difficult theory for me to buy. Harry is James' son whom he has not seen in a dozen years. James/Lupin would have known how much this son has suffered in that time. James/Lupin was not able to ease his son's pain during those twelve years. To show the restrain that Lupin shows in PoA would make James a very cold calculating man who is just out to protect himself, staying safely, unsuspected in Lupin's body while providing nothing for Harry.
The terrible scene in the Pensieve where James attackes Snape, unprovoked, showing James as an insensitive cruel prat is nothing, compared to a man in hiding, who's wife has been killed and only child is being reared by cruel and mean step-parents and yet he does nothing to reach out and comfort that child.
Even after seeing James in the Pensieve episode, many allowances can be made for his behavior to perserve the wonderful person, image that we get of James from Harry previous view of his father e.g. James was young, Snape had actually already attacked James enough to merit James' attack. But if James the parent, is still alive and meets his son for the first time in twelve years, when this son is facing tremendous difficulties and all he can show is -restrait-then James becomes extremely unsympathetic.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 15, 2003 6:02 am (#119 of 528)
I have seen this argument against the theory come up a few times and my response to it is twofold:
First, James has learned that acting impulsively cost him his family and one of his best friends and got another friend thrown in to prison for 13 years. I am sure after living as Lupin for 13 years basically locked in his own mind having to relive what he did has made him very skiddish in his reactions to Harry. JKR does not waste words in descriptions and the words used to describe Lupin are carefully chosen to show, I think, and higher emotional connection. Not becasue he is an old friend mind you, becasue she doesn't use the same words to describe any of James and Lily other friends when they react to Harry.
Second, James is also fully aware that he left his son to live with the Dursley's for all these years and is does not know how to tell Harry or Dumbledore what he did. As I have said before, I lived through an adoption 'reunion' with my gf and her biological parents and for all the happy stories you see on TV....there are 20 unhappy ones. There is anger, resentment, and fear of the parents coming back. It's not all hugs and kisses and catching up.
Also, James is not protecting himself....he is protecting Harry. I think that James/Lupin knows that while at the Dusley's he is safer than he is with him. That is wht he let him stay there...not becasue he wanted to but becasue he was looking out for Harry.
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Fawkesy Lady - Sep 15, 2003 7:02 pm (#120 of 528)
I have been keeping up on this thread and find it absolutely interesting. What I would like to know is how many of you would like to see this theory come true. When I think on it, I am not sure I would like to have guessed the ending. I am just curious to see what you all think.
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Denise S. - Sep 15, 2003 7:09 pm (#121 of 528)
We are not a cult, we're just slightly obsessed and mentally unstable. There's a difference. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
How would this theory come true? Say Lupin really is James Potter--then what? How could he go up to Harry and say, "Luke"--I mean (), "Harry, I am your father"? How could "Lupin" possibly phrase it or convey it to Harry in a way that would make Harry believe him? What proof would he have for it? There'd be absolutely no one to back him up on this, no record of the switching, nothing. It would be more likely that Harry would step back from Lupin, look at him like he was insane, and then rush off and tell Dumbledore, which would lead to more problems.
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Fawkesy Lady - Sep 16, 2003 8:24 am (#122 of 528)
I agree with you Denise, after reading Harry's reactions in OOP, he would had Lupin for not telling him and feel betrayed by him and like you said step back from him. This is a fun theory to discuss, but I would not like to see it come to fruition.
P.S. I ABLOSULTELY LOVE THE STAR WARS REFERENCE!!!! I am also a closet Star Wars junkie and I just thought that was laugh out loud funny.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 16, 2003 10:17 am (#123 of 528)
Edited by Sep 16, 2003 10:22 am
That has always been a question I would love to see her resolve. HOW do you tell your son you are still alive with no proof. No one to verify that you are you...except maybe Dumbledore...with Occulmancy (SP)? or perhaps the Marauder's Map?
I always get dismissed when I bring up the Star Wars references but they cannot be denied...an orphan left to live with his aunt and uncle (Luke), who then goes off under the teaching of an old and wise wizard to learn the trade (obi wan) only to make some friends who help on his task (Han, Leia)...I know the main plot is not the same...Voldy is not Harry's father...Hermoine is not Harry's sister..but there are lots of similar story points...,
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schoff - Sep 16, 2003 11:12 am (#124 of 528)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Maybe it'll happen like this:
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am (#125 of 528)
Edited by Sep 16, 2003 11:50 am
LOL....that's funny
Where did you get that?
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Hem Hem - Sep 16, 2003 5:44 pm (#126 of 528)
As for how Lupin could prove that he is James, there's always veritaserum for those vital situations.
)
And by the way, schoff, congrats on finding the perfect place to display the emoticon! I knew the situation would arise at some point! I think if I had to vote for the coolest emoticon from the "Advance team welcome and test your connection" thread, I'd give it to that one!
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schoff - Sep 16, 2003 5:54 pm (#127 of 528)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Edited by Sep 16, 2003 5:55 pm
YES! Score one for me! Madam Poppy, take that!
I guess, since I've now joined this discussion, I've got to admit I don't believe the "Lupin is James" idea, even though I think it's the most original I've ever come across. This was cemented (IMO) by Lupin's actions, or more precisely, his lack of actions on Harry's part. Lupin never seems to want to spend time with Harry, even innocently--like a game of chess, or something. He doesn't ask the most basic questions about Harry's life (ie--how're classes? etc), and more importantly to me, he never sent Harry a Christmas (he and Sirius gave him books in OoP--the first such gift) or Birthday present or card, even after they met. Hagrid sends Harry these things. I would think with the bonding Lupin and Harry had in PoA, would have at least given Lupin an excuse to keep in touch with Harry, even if it was just sending him a card at holidays.
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Fawkesy Lady - Sep 16, 2003 7:24 pm (#128 of 528)
Perhaps Lupin feels insecure of relationships, I mean considering what most wizards think of werewolves. Yes, he had good relationships with Padfoot, Prongs and Wormtail, but look what happened to them dead dead with Voldy.
If Lupin is a poor as we are lead to belive, then he probably wouldn't have a lot of money to buy gifts and then send them via owl post. Just a thought.
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schoff - Sep 16, 2003 7:27 pm (#129 of 528)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Edited by Sep 16, 2003 7:34 pm
That doesn't negate him from sending a card or letter, though...
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Marye Lupin - Sep 17, 2003 2:49 pm (#130 of 528)
"I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building." Peanuts
That's suspicious even if he's not Harry's father.
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Lisa Horton - Sep 19, 2003 11:44 am (#131 of 528)
I think this is a wonderful theory! Its perfect!! I never picked up on to it before I read your post. What do you think about this: Is their more to Harry's blood? Remember in GOF when Voldermort was able to touch Harry . Albus said "HE has overcome that paticluar barrier"Did Lily"charm"his blood also .( its seems so) Also in OOTP it was said that "As long as you call home the place where your mothers blood flows you will be safe" One more theory is Harry like Tonks? When ever Aunt P cuts his hair it grows right back . I am very interestedd in what you and anyone else has to say !!
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Hem Hem - Sep 19, 2003 4:53 pm (#132 of 528)
Welcome to the forum, Lisa! Your theories are certainly worthy of discussion, but they don't really belong in the middle of this thread...I think if you make use of the "search" function in the teal bar at the top of the main menu, you'll see where these theories are appropriate to be discussed. As for Harry being a metamorphmagus, check out the "Harry Potter" thread, especially posts 137-139. Make sure to look around, and enjoy what you see. The volume of subjects being discussed here is hugely immense...I'm sure you'll find everything you're looking for.
And once again, Welcome to the Forum community.
Jackie F.
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Lei Storm - Sep 22, 2003 8:11 pm (#133 of 528)
I think this theory is very interesting and I wouldn't put it past J.K. to do something like this. However I am torn between logic and magic. First let's try logic. Even if James is Lupin,and even if he is able to exercise amazing self-control like I think Lady Kazuma stated before,how long does this switching spell work? Can't spells wear off? Then if it did,how would he become Remus again if the real Remus had already died? Also,Lady Kazuma mentioned the fact that Remus/James wouldn't know about Harry's first two years. Well,what about the fourth and fifth? Or the knowledge that his best friend is a mass murderer,then he's innocent but on the run,then he's dead? Wouldn't that make him insane? Then while he's working for the Order won't that remind him of his dead wife and his former friend? I certainly wouldn't be able to cope with that. On the other hand we don't exactly know how these spells work. Also the signs that Lupin shows Harry are almost fatherly,but he was a close friend of Lily and James.I think it would be fascinating if J.K. did that,but all the same I'd still be dissappionted because she murdered off Sirius. It is not entirely possible,but it is not entirely impossible either. schoff where did you get those smilies? Those are brilliant!
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Susurro Notities - Sep 23, 2003 12:22 am (#134 of 528)
Edited by Sep 23, 2003 12:23 am
I love this theory. I would love to see Harry have a parent. BUT I just don't believe it. I have read this entire thread and there is one issue I have not seen addressed.
If James and Lupin switched bodies why wouldn't James in Lupin's body been made the secret keeper? After all James KNEW he wasn't the secret keeper.
Ok all supporters rebuke me with: They switched without Lily's knowledge and the charm was done after James in Lupin's body left to do an errand.
PROBLEMS:
1. James didn't tell his wife that he was switching bodies with someone else? A. Wow might that not lead to some intimacy issues? (I hope this is ok to say - I tried to be sensitive) B. Didn't James & Lily share all the intrigue as they were in a dangerous battle against evil? C. Doesn't the lack of sharing something major like switching bodies destroy the image of James and Lily as a wonderful, close, perfect sort of couple?
2. Lupin in James' body or Lily (who surely must have known about any switch) didn't mention that it wouldn't be a good time to cast the charm? A. Voldemort's attack would have had to be so imminent that the charm had to be cast at that moment - but who cast it? How did they know about an imminent attack? B. Did Peter just happen to be around during this imminent threat? C. If they had enough time to decide on a secret keeper and cast a spell couldn't they have thought of something else to escape Voldemort so that James wouldn't be left without knowing where his family was?
I don't think this "Lily doesn't know and the charm was cast after James left" flies. Thus if that argument is cast aside I am left wondering why if James switched with Lupin the secret keeper wasn't James in Lupin's body?
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Joost! - Sep 23, 2003 2:59 am (#135 of 528)
Second line of information
I mostly agree with you, Susurro. Let me comment on your problems.
1A I recognized this before, you must really, really trust a guy with your body and your wife.
1B I would think so...
1C This could be true, but we don't know Lily & James well enough to assume they were the perfect couple. Let's hope for Harry's sake they were.
2A I'm not sure the attack was imminent, I guess Dumbledore told MWPP & Lily about the prophecy so they knew You-Know-Who wanted to kill Harry. Sirius, Wormtail, James (actually Lupin), Lily and even DD could've performed the Charm, but Lily or Wormtail would be most likely. This depends on how the Fidelius Charm actually works. If indeed the attack was imminent, I reckon Snape would have told the Order.
2B I guess he was.
2C This is my greatest objection to the theory, I can't believe Lupin wouldn't let James know who the SK was.
Why didn't they use "Lupin" as Secret Keeper? I don't know and I guess "James" or Lily or Sirius or Dumbledore or even Ernie Prang would've been a better choice, but the fact is they chose Wormtail and we can't chance that.
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mollis - Sep 23, 2003 6:16 am (#136 of 528)
Susurro, I think you hit the nail right on the head with your last post! I too have been following this thread, mostly for entertainment since I have a hard time believing it. Mainly for your reason 1A, I don't see how a husband would switch bodies and not tell his wife. There would definately be issues! And if they did tell her, then Lupins body should have been secret keeper and the theory may have worked for me.
I don't mean to bust anyone's bubble or cause upset, I love the theories here. It is what makes it so fun!
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Denise P. - Sep 23, 2003 6:25 am (#137 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
I think when the switch occurred, that it was not meant to be for any extended length of time. With that in mind, I can certainly see why James would NOT have told Lily. I would have to assume that a switching spell is not an easy thing to do (if you buy into the whole switching spell theory) and probably dangerous. I know that if my husband told me he and a friend were going to do something that would potentially be a HUGE problem, I would try to stop him. If Lily would have done that, yep...James is a typical man and would have just done it anyway. I really believe that the switch was only supposed to be for under an hour and then things went horribly wrong.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 23, 2003 7:02 am (#138 of 528)
Edited by Sep 23, 2003 7:28 am
Denise, you know I have been behind this theory from the beginning and you are probably right about WHY Lily did not know. My guess it had to do with James wanting to go after Voldy after hearing from DD that Harry was a target. Lily told him not to and he used Lupin to accomplish this task.
However, the "only..under an hour" doesn't fit with the reaction "Lupin" had to finding out Sirius was not the traitor. If James had made the switch with Lupin only an hour before than I would assume he would have known Sirius was not the Secret Keeper. I have always believed that if this is true the switch was made before Peter was made Secret Keeper. Here is my proposed time line for the events:
1: Trewlawny predicts a child will bring down Voldy. Spy overhears in Hogs Head (my theory is Dung but that is on another board and not relevant here) 2: About a year later Voldy finds out and realizes there are two babies that fit this prophecy 3: DD finds out Voldy knows (perhaps a regret from the spy) 4: He goes to Longbottoms and Potter and tells them of danger 5: Some time before the Potter's die, James tells Lily he cannot sit around and decides to go after Voldy himself. She makes him promise not to and he does. He talks Lupin in to a Switching Spell so he can go after Voldy. 6: Lily cast Fidelus Charm with Peter as secret keeper after Sirius suggestion. "Lupin" left thinking Sirius was going to be the secret keeper. 7: Sometime during that week "Lupin" decides to get the spell undone and goes to Sirius to find location. Sirius thinks Lupin is the traitor and refuses to tell him (even though cannot) and refuses to tell "Lupin" that Peter is the real secret keeper. 8: Voldy attacks and kills "James" and Lily and gets destroyed by baby Potter. 9: "Lupin" is now stuck because his real body is destroyed and he is stuck unable to protect his son and goes in to hiding.
The reaction the Shrieking Shack seems to imply that "Lupin" thought Sirius to be the traitor and was extremely relieved when he was wrong.
and one other thing...for all you parents out there...if you had just been told your son was going to be killed by the baddest wizard of them all, would intimacy be a huge problem for you? I doubt that it would have been for Lily and "James" at this time.
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Denise P. - Sep 23, 2003 7:09 am (#139 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Uhm, let's not go down that road with the intimacy speculation. Keep in mind that we are a kid friendly forum
I just don't think that either James or Lupin meant for the switch to be an extended period of time. I think it was done, they would confront Sirius, switch back and THEN tell Lily about it. Those plans were blown to bits when Voldemort showed up, obviously.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 23, 2003 7:29 am (#140 of 528)
I didn't mean for the conversation to go there, but was just trying to show that at that point it would not have been a concern for any party involved.
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Joost! - Sep 23, 2003 7:54 am (#141 of 528)
Second line of information
Bluenote, you've almost pulled me over to your side. I think you make a very strong point with the time line you constructed.
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Fawkesy Lady - Sep 23, 2003 10:09 am (#142 of 528)
This is kind of in connection with Bluenote's theory (which by-the-way is very good!). If James and Lupin switched (supposedly for a short period of time), then "James'" body would change into a werewolf, but since he was killed by LV no one knew. If James is in Lupin's body, people know that he is a werewolf and therefore changed his animagus form into a werewolf. In PoA where "Lupin" only changes into a werewolf after the moon comes from behind the clouds (clearing up the question)after coming out from the Shrieking Shack and James/Lupin realizes he should have changed, so he does, and to avoid meeting up with anyone, runs into the Forbidden Forest.
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Susurro Notities - Sep 23, 2003 1:35 pm (#143 of 528)
Bluenote,
I agree with your time line up to the middle of point 5.
1: Trewlawny predicts a child will bring down Voldy. Spy overhears in Hogs Head (my theory is Dung but that is on another board and not relevant here) 2: About a year later Voldy finds out and realizes there are two babies that fit this prophecy 3: DD finds out Voldy knows (perhaps a regret from the spy) 4: He goes to Longbottoms and Potter and tells them of danger 5: Some time before the Potter's die, James tells Lily he cannot sit around and decides to go after Voldy himself. She makes him promise not to and he does.
It is at this point that I see some difficulties.
He talks Lupin in to a Switching Spell so he can go after Voldy. 6: Lily cast Fidelus Charm with Peter as secret keeper after Sirius suggestion. "Lupin" left thinking Sirius was going to be the secret keeper.
The difficulties are as follows: 1. If James is going after Voldemort it is likely that he would be gone for an extended period of time or at least for more than an hour. 2. Which brings up the intimacy issue again. 3. Men with decent marriages (I agree with you Joost perfect may not be the correct word to describe the marriage but I would expect it was solid or decent.) might go to the bar after promising not to but would they go into mortal combat? 4. Why would James and Lily wait to cast the Fidelus Charm? Why not do it as soon as possible after they found out about the prophecy? Surely Dumbledore would have immediately told them of ways to protect their family. 5. If Sirius suspected that Lupin was a traitor why wouldn't he have shared this with James? 6. If he did share it with James would James have left Lily and Harry in Lupin's care? 7. Would James switch with Lupin without telling Sirius?
I am sure there are answers to many if not all of these questions but there are a lot of questions. Is it believable that James, Sirius, Lily, and Lupin would have failed to react in a reasonable manner in all these aspects? I know that James' arrogance could account for his belief that he could single handed take on Voldemort but is he really such a complete jerk that he would betray his wife?
Ok Shoot!
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Madame Librarian - Sep 23, 2003 2:22 pm (#144 of 528)
Susurro, when you post in italics in the light brown type color, I have a hard time reading. Thanks.
Ciao. Barb
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Madam Pince - Sep 23, 2003 3:52 pm (#145 of 528)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Barb, you can just run your mouse over her letters and highlight them, and then they should be fine to read. On my computer, hers are not in italics and are a medium-dark brown.
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Madame Librarian - Sep 23, 2003 4:23 pm (#146 of 528)
Madam P, I will try that. Thanks.
Ciao. Barb
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Lei Storm - Sep 23, 2003 6:07 pm (#147 of 528)
Those are good points. Also,why would Lupin want to commit in the first place? If James told him it would only be for a few hours why didn't he rethink? Didn't they both know what Voldemort was like? Didn't they both know he attacked without warning,in an unlikely way? I would think Lupin would be more intelligent than that. I would also think James would have had at least an inch of common sense to realize what all could go wrong. Then again,this is only my thoughts.
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Susurro Notities - Sep 23, 2003 7:36 pm (#148 of 528)
Edited by Sep 23, 2003 7:53 pm
Sorry Madame Librarian, I will experiment with some other colors.
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Joost! - Sep 24, 2003 12:31 am (#149 of 528)
Second line of information
Lei has got a point there. If James goes after the Dark Lord, not only does he leave his family, but he ought to have known there was a chance he would not return. Taking on the most powerful dark wizard of all times is not without risk. He would be risking his own life and the body of his friend.
Although, I can imagine Lupin and James agreeing that it would be better to lose the body of a werewolf than a "healthy" body.
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Madam Poppy - Sep 24, 2003 2:05 am (#150 of 528)
Kirsten Valleskey
Edited by Sep 24, 2003 2:06 am
Susurro, the 2nd color in your last post is much easier to read, though it doesn't perfectly match now with your picture. Thanks
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
What an interesting theory, and how fun to discuss it! That's what makes a debate fun, isn't it -- can't be proven or disproven? I mean, the threads that die out here on the Forum are the ones that start out with a question, someone answers, and then it's "Oh yeah. I didn't notice that. Oh well." What fun is that?
Anyway, I look at the question not so much from the viewpoint of character analysis, but rather from author analysis. I believe that one of the major themes of this series is death and how you deal with it. Someone (HemHem I think) said way back in this thread that this theory would sort of cheapen the whole theme/"lesson" of dealing with death. I agree, and I don't think JKR would do that. So while it COULD be true that Lupin is James, I would be very disappointed if it turns out that way.
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Joost! - Sep 11, 2003 2:08 am (#102 of 528)
Second line of information
I'm not sure if JKR wants to "teach" us anything. I just think she's writing a fantastic story about a boy in a strange world.
But I would also be disappointed if Lupin turns out to be James, because a lot of people saw it coming. That's not what we all expect from her, do we? We want her to invent plot changes that make her readers think: "WHAT?!! Oh wait, she was hinting towards that all along. How blind am I that I didn't notice that."
I reckon she knows about this theory, so she could change her mind and never write about it, although she planned to.
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Mindy - Sep 11, 2003 3:57 am (#103 of 528)
Exactly. Pinta said why would James/Lupin leave Harry at the Dursleys'? Plus, there would also be that blood bond magic Dumbledore talks about. Why doesn't Harry stay with him instead?
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 11, 2003 6:19 am (#104 of 528)
Edited by Sep 11, 2003 6:21 am
The blood bond is formed becasue Lily dies protecting Harry and Petunia is her only remaining blood relative. But this brings up LOADS of other questions. Where was the rest of her family? Where was James' family?
I agree that JKR is probably trying to teach something in the stories but she is also an author with an incredible imagination. ANYTHING is possible in her world. So to say that a swithcing spell cannot be used to do this...well we have not seen many of the spells mentioned in use yet. If you go back and reread the books the one spell mentioned more than any other that we have never really seen in use is the Switching Spell. (yes i know it was mentioned in GoF with the changing a dragons teeth to something else, but we never saw it used)
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Fawkesy Lady - Sep 11, 2003 8:33 am (#105 of 528)
This thread is absolutely addicting. One day I am for James is Lupin and the next, I am totally against it. The original message of the thread states some of Lupin's reactions to Harry, for example in PoA (chapter 10 Maurader's Map), when Harry tells Lupin that he can hear Voldemore murdering his mum. JKR writes, "Lupin made a sudden motion with his arm as though to grip Harry's shoulder, but though better of it." This theory suggests that because it is James, he flinches because Harry is talking about his mum. You can also look at it that Harry doesn't know that Lupin knew his mum and Lupin does not share that fact with Harry at that time, so he restrains himself. Looking at the context in the book does help put things in perspective. One phrase quoted in the book here in the forum can be taken out of context. Just thought I'd bring it up. Though I do enjoy reading everyones ideas about this theory.
Fawkesy Lady xoxo
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 11, 2003 8:52 am (#106 of 528)
Edited by Sep 11, 2003 8:53 am
I would say I agree with you Fawkesy...but there is more than that one anecedote abuot Lupin's reacions to Harry. There is the one when Harry is finally able to produce the Patronus and its a stag (James animagus). I think the quote reads something about Lupin runnig towards him 'shaken' or somehting like that...along with a few more instances of Lupin reacting odd to to Harry mentioning his mom and dad. Also, JKR goes to great lengths in her descriptions of people that is cannot be disregarded as a throw away...for instance when she decribes Sirius as having a 'barking laugh' we know what she is doing.
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Fawkesy Lady - Sep 11, 2003 9:53 am (#107 of 528)
Good point Blue! I would be curious to see JKR's thoughts on this theory?
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Hazell Tole - Sep 11, 2003 11:04 am (#108 of 528)
I like the sound of this!
I could agree with the theory about James' soul being in Lupin's body but I don't think that they would of swapped. I haven't heard whether wizards can do this but if they could, surely two minds would be better than one!
The reason I could believe James is hiding is because we know it can happen as Lord Voldemort did the same thing with professor Quirrell. Anyway, to make himself known as James would be disastrous because Lord Voldemort is still out there. He might be gaining strength like Lord Voldemort did but I am not sure whether this could be, as Lupin would have to die if james came fully back. But maybe Lupin would be prepared to do this because what sort of life has he got being a warewolf and I suppose you have to give anything a go to assure Lord Vodemort's fall?!?!?
So many questions and thoughts, its like dominoes in a way.
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Madam Poppy - Sep 11, 2003 12:45 pm (#109 of 528)
Kirsten Valleskey
Edited by Sep 11, 2003 12:46 pm
I think that once the Lupin is James Theory was published in the Ultimate Guide to Harry Potter, that killed any chance of it ever being put into the books.
JKR wants her readers to be surprised. Look at all the recent Book 5 secrecy and security. She has said that one or two people have come close to figuring out the ending of the series but no one has guessed it so far. I believe that Lupins coolness towards Harry in Book 5 shows that JKR dropped Lupin is James and we now may never know if we were right.
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Landman - Sep 11, 2003 1:04 pm (#110 of 528)
You may be right Madam Poppy, although she said in some cases there is no turning back now -- she can't undo some of the plot points, so if someone guesses correctly, she'll have to live with it.
Thinking along the same lines, if she does turn away from this theory, here's an alternate version:
It's possible that Lupin had access to James Pensieve and Lupin may have taken what memories were inside the Pensieve after James died. This could also explain Lupin's emotional reactions to Harry, because he has potentially some very profound memories living inside his head.
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S.E. Jones - Sep 11, 2003 1:14 pm (#111 of 528)
Let it snow!
Can I ask an honest question? What is the purpose of this theory in the context of the story? To see a living form of James or to give Lupin's presence in the books some importance and meaning?
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 11, 2003 2:22 pm (#112 of 528)
I think it is to give the story a wrap up that no one can really see coming to be honest. Right now the end is Harry killing Voldemort or being killed...not a very good prospect for the series. It is even mentioned at the end of OotP. When Harry leaves Hagrids and sits by lake alone he is reflecting on the fact he wil either have to commit a murder or be murdered. I think the Lupin as James theories gives the chance that their might be a 'happy' ending for Harry, reunited with his father in what ever form.
ALTHOUGH....I do think by printing it in the Guide book it may have diminshed the chances of it being bore out in the remaining books and JKR has given a way out becasue she never really gave OBVIOUS clues to Jmaes as Lupin, it has all been speculation. I am sure if it doesn't happen we will never find out it was supposed too...
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Maollelujah - Sep 11, 2003 5:27 pm (#113 of 528)
If you go back and reread the books the one spell mentioned more than any other that we have never really seen in use is the Switching Spell. (yes i know it was mentioned in GoF with the changing a dragons teeth to something else, but we never saw it used)
I think we have seen the switching spell in many times in Mrs. McGonnagal's classes, everytime they try to change one object into another. In their first class they try to change a match into a needle. Second year it is a beetle into a button etc...
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Denise P. - Sep 11, 2003 5:49 pm (#114 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
While Switching Spells are mentioned, what is being taught in McGonnagal's class is Transfiguration. They may be related but they are not the same thing. In her class, they are transfiguring, not switching.
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Maollelujah - Sep 11, 2003 6:04 pm (#115 of 528)
While Switching Spells are mentioned, what is being taught in McGonnagal's class is Transfiguration. They may be related but they are not the same thing. In her class, they are transfiguring, not switching.
"Don't you care about Gryffindor, do you only care about yourselves, I don't want Slytherin to win the house cup, and you'll lose all the points I got from Professor McGonagall for knowing about Switching Spells." Hermione says this in the first book.
Also in the fourth book:
"Longbottom, kindly do not reveal that you can't even perform a simple Switching Spell in front of anyone from Durmstrang!" Professor McGonagall barked at the end of one particularly difficult lesson, during which Neville had accidentally transplanted his own ears onto a cactus.
So I believe switching spells are a type of Transfigure spell.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 12, 2003 5:43 am (#116 of 528)
Once again....the spells are mentioned but we never see them in use.
Hermoine knows alot of stuff, and it could have been a simple question in the class if any knows what a switching spell is.
As far as McGonagall's comment I have always had a different view about that comment than others. What if there ARE levels of each spell? Her comment instead of meaning that the Switching Spell, in general, is simple...means that at this point (thier forth) year, Neville should be able to do a simple or basic switching spell, maybe they learn advanced switching spell later on in school.
Also, her comment shows that you can, at least, transfer parts of the human body to inanimate objects. It is such a stretch to believe that a really advanced wizard could use a switching spell to do what is mentioned in the theory?
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Matt Allair - Sep 12, 2003 11:13 pm (#117 of 528)
'Mischief Managed.......Not! (Nox)'
Going back to Professor Kosh, I really have to commend his arguments and all of the others who support this theory. In the past, I've have a couple of friendly disagreements with Denise P. about this theory.
For myself, why I haven't agreed with the theory had to do with human nature and a persons paternal instincts.
If James was in Lupin's body, wouldn't it take an incredible amount of self control to never reveal oneself? Can anyone expect a father who has never seen his only son in twelve years, to not find himself falling out of character?
Can you imagine someone going mad with grief, being in a body that changes into a werewolf, with the knowledge of his wife's death and his best friend? How could such a person stay sane and levelheaded?
My impression was that James was an impulsive person and the flashback on OOP helps to reinforce that impression. I just have a hard time with the idea that Remus / James could spend nine months in the same school with his son, while having the kind of restraint we see in POA.
In addition, how could Dumbledore not have suspected anything when agreeing to have Lupin teach for the semester? While arguemts have been made to answer that question. I still have to wonder if Dumbledore would have a suspicion that a switching spell was performed.
Just friendly little two Knuts on the matter. I kindly agree to disagree, to each his own.
Matt A.
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Mrs. Sirius - Sep 14, 2003 10:44 pm (#118 of 528)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
This theory has been around for a while and have read much of the "evidence" to support it.
It is a very difficult theory for me to buy. Harry is James' son whom he has not seen in a dozen years. James/Lupin would have known how much this son has suffered in that time. James/Lupin was not able to ease his son's pain during those twelve years. To show the restrain that Lupin shows in PoA would make James a very cold calculating man who is just out to protect himself, staying safely, unsuspected in Lupin's body while providing nothing for Harry.
The terrible scene in the Pensieve where James attackes Snape, unprovoked, showing James as an insensitive cruel prat is nothing, compared to a man in hiding, who's wife has been killed and only child is being reared by cruel and mean step-parents and yet he does nothing to reach out and comfort that child.
Even after seeing James in the Pensieve episode, many allowances can be made for his behavior to perserve the wonderful person, image that we get of James from Harry previous view of his father e.g. James was young, Snape had actually already attacked James enough to merit James' attack. But if James the parent, is still alive and meets his son for the first time in twelve years, when this son is facing tremendous difficulties and all he can show is -restrait-then James becomes extremely unsympathetic.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 15, 2003 6:02 am (#119 of 528)
I have seen this argument against the theory come up a few times and my response to it is twofold:
First, James has learned that acting impulsively cost him his family and one of his best friends and got another friend thrown in to prison for 13 years. I am sure after living as Lupin for 13 years basically locked in his own mind having to relive what he did has made him very skiddish in his reactions to Harry. JKR does not waste words in descriptions and the words used to describe Lupin are carefully chosen to show, I think, and higher emotional connection. Not becasue he is an old friend mind you, becasue she doesn't use the same words to describe any of James and Lily other friends when they react to Harry.
Second, James is also fully aware that he left his son to live with the Dursley's for all these years and is does not know how to tell Harry or Dumbledore what he did. As I have said before, I lived through an adoption 'reunion' with my gf and her biological parents and for all the happy stories you see on TV....there are 20 unhappy ones. There is anger, resentment, and fear of the parents coming back. It's not all hugs and kisses and catching up.
Also, James is not protecting himself....he is protecting Harry. I think that James/Lupin knows that while at the Dusley's he is safer than he is with him. That is wht he let him stay there...not becasue he wanted to but becasue he was looking out for Harry.
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Fawkesy Lady - Sep 15, 2003 7:02 pm (#120 of 528)
I have been keeping up on this thread and find it absolutely interesting. What I would like to know is how many of you would like to see this theory come true. When I think on it, I am not sure I would like to have guessed the ending. I am just curious to see what you all think.
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Denise S. - Sep 15, 2003 7:09 pm (#121 of 528)
We are not a cult, we're just slightly obsessed and mentally unstable. There's a difference. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
How would this theory come true? Say Lupin really is James Potter--then what? How could he go up to Harry and say, "Luke"--I mean (), "Harry, I am your father"? How could "Lupin" possibly phrase it or convey it to Harry in a way that would make Harry believe him? What proof would he have for it? There'd be absolutely no one to back him up on this, no record of the switching, nothing. It would be more likely that Harry would step back from Lupin, look at him like he was insane, and then rush off and tell Dumbledore, which would lead to more problems.
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Fawkesy Lady - Sep 16, 2003 8:24 am (#122 of 528)
I agree with you Denise, after reading Harry's reactions in OOP, he would had Lupin for not telling him and feel betrayed by him and like you said step back from him. This is a fun theory to discuss, but I would not like to see it come to fruition.
P.S. I ABLOSULTELY LOVE THE STAR WARS REFERENCE!!!! I am also a closet Star Wars junkie and I just thought that was laugh out loud funny.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 16, 2003 10:17 am (#123 of 528)
Edited by Sep 16, 2003 10:22 am
That has always been a question I would love to see her resolve. HOW do you tell your son you are still alive with no proof. No one to verify that you are you...except maybe Dumbledore...with Occulmancy (SP)? or perhaps the Marauder's Map?
I always get dismissed when I bring up the Star Wars references but they cannot be denied...an orphan left to live with his aunt and uncle (Luke), who then goes off under the teaching of an old and wise wizard to learn the trade (obi wan) only to make some friends who help on his task (Han, Leia)...I know the main plot is not the same...Voldy is not Harry's father...Hermoine is not Harry's sister..but there are lots of similar story points...,
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schoff - Sep 16, 2003 11:12 am (#124 of 528)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Maybe it'll happen like this:
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am (#125 of 528)
Edited by Sep 16, 2003 11:50 am
LOL....that's funny
Where did you get that?
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Hem Hem - Sep 16, 2003 5:44 pm (#126 of 528)
As for how Lupin could prove that he is James, there's always veritaserum for those vital situations.
) And by the way, schoff, congrats on finding the perfect place to display the emoticon! I knew the situation would arise at some point! I think if I had to vote for the coolest emoticon from the "Advance team welcome and test your connection" thread, I'd give it to that one!
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schoff - Sep 16, 2003 5:54 pm (#127 of 528)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Edited by Sep 16, 2003 5:55 pm
YES! Score one for me! Madam Poppy, take that!
I guess, since I've now joined this discussion, I've got to admit I don't believe the "Lupin is James" idea, even though I think it's the most original I've ever come across. This was cemented (IMO) by Lupin's actions, or more precisely, his lack of actions on Harry's part. Lupin never seems to want to spend time with Harry, even innocently--like a game of chess, or something. He doesn't ask the most basic questions about Harry's life (ie--how're classes? etc), and more importantly to me, he never sent Harry a Christmas (he and Sirius gave him books in OoP--the first such gift) or Birthday present or card, even after they met. Hagrid sends Harry these things. I would think with the bonding Lupin and Harry had in PoA, would have at least given Lupin an excuse to keep in touch with Harry, even if it was just sending him a card at holidays.
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Fawkesy Lady - Sep 16, 2003 7:24 pm (#128 of 528)
Perhaps Lupin feels insecure of relationships, I mean considering what most wizards think of werewolves. Yes, he had good relationships with Padfoot, Prongs and Wormtail, but look what happened to them dead dead with Voldy.
If Lupin is a poor as we are lead to belive, then he probably wouldn't have a lot of money to buy gifts and then send them via owl post. Just a thought.
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schoff - Sep 16, 2003 7:27 pm (#129 of 528)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Edited by Sep 16, 2003 7:34 pm
That doesn't negate him from sending a card or letter, though...
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Marye Lupin - Sep 17, 2003 2:49 pm (#130 of 528)
"I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building." Peanuts
That's suspicious even if he's not Harry's father.
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Lisa Horton - Sep 19, 2003 11:44 am (#131 of 528)
I think this is a wonderful theory! Its perfect!! I never picked up on to it before I read your post. What do you think about this: Is their more to Harry's blood? Remember in GOF when Voldermort was able to touch Harry . Albus said "HE has overcome that paticluar barrier"Did Lily"charm"his blood also .( its seems so) Also in OOTP it was said that "As long as you call home the place where your mothers blood flows you will be safe" One more theory is Harry like Tonks? When ever Aunt P cuts his hair it grows right back . I am very interestedd in what you and anyone else has to say !!
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Hem Hem - Sep 19, 2003 4:53 pm (#132 of 528)
Welcome to the forum, Lisa! Your theories are certainly worthy of discussion, but they don't really belong in the middle of this thread...I think if you make use of the "search" function in the teal bar at the top of the main menu, you'll see where these theories are appropriate to be discussed. As for Harry being a metamorphmagus, check out the "Harry Potter" thread, especially posts 137-139. Make sure to look around, and enjoy what you see. The volume of subjects being discussed here is hugely immense...I'm sure you'll find everything you're looking for.
And once again, Welcome to the Forum community.
Jackie F.
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Lei Storm - Sep 22, 2003 8:11 pm (#133 of 528)
I think this theory is very interesting and I wouldn't put it past J.K. to do something like this. However I am torn between logic and magic. First let's try logic. Even if James is Lupin,and even if he is able to exercise amazing self-control like I think Lady Kazuma stated before,how long does this switching spell work? Can't spells wear off? Then if it did,how would he become Remus again if the real Remus had already died? Also,Lady Kazuma mentioned the fact that Remus/James wouldn't know about Harry's first two years. Well,what about the fourth and fifth? Or the knowledge that his best friend is a mass murderer,then he's innocent but on the run,then he's dead? Wouldn't that make him insane? Then while he's working for the Order won't that remind him of his dead wife and his former friend? I certainly wouldn't be able to cope with that. On the other hand we don't exactly know how these spells work. Also the signs that Lupin shows Harry are almost fatherly,but he was a close friend of Lily and James.I think it would be fascinating if J.K. did that,but all the same I'd still be dissappionted because she murdered off Sirius. It is not entirely possible,but it is not entirely impossible either. schoff where did you get those smilies? Those are brilliant!
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Susurro Notities - Sep 23, 2003 12:22 am (#134 of 528)
Edited by Sep 23, 2003 12:23 am
I love this theory. I would love to see Harry have a parent. BUT I just don't believe it. I have read this entire thread and there is one issue I have not seen addressed.
If James and Lupin switched bodies why wouldn't James in Lupin's body been made the secret keeper? After all James KNEW he wasn't the secret keeper.
Ok all supporters rebuke me with: They switched without Lily's knowledge and the charm was done after James in Lupin's body left to do an errand.
PROBLEMS:
1. James didn't tell his wife that he was switching bodies with someone else? A. Wow might that not lead to some intimacy issues? (I hope this is ok to say - I tried to be sensitive) B. Didn't James & Lily share all the intrigue as they were in a dangerous battle against evil? C. Doesn't the lack of sharing something major like switching bodies destroy the image of James and Lily as a wonderful, close, perfect sort of couple?
2. Lupin in James' body or Lily (who surely must have known about any switch) didn't mention that it wouldn't be a good time to cast the charm? A. Voldemort's attack would have had to be so imminent that the charm had to be cast at that moment - but who cast it? How did they know about an imminent attack? B. Did Peter just happen to be around during this imminent threat? C. If they had enough time to decide on a secret keeper and cast a spell couldn't they have thought of something else to escape Voldemort so that James wouldn't be left without knowing where his family was?
I don't think this "Lily doesn't know and the charm was cast after James left" flies. Thus if that argument is cast aside I am left wondering why if James switched with Lupin the secret keeper wasn't James in Lupin's body?
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Joost! - Sep 23, 2003 2:59 am (#135 of 528)
Second line of information
I mostly agree with you, Susurro. Let me comment on your problems.
1A I recognized this before, you must really, really trust a guy with your body and your wife.
1B I would think so...
1C This could be true, but we don't know Lily & James well enough to assume they were the perfect couple. Let's hope for Harry's sake they were.
2A I'm not sure the attack was imminent, I guess Dumbledore told MWPP & Lily about the prophecy so they knew You-Know-Who wanted to kill Harry. Sirius, Wormtail, James (actually Lupin), Lily and even DD could've performed the Charm, but Lily or Wormtail would be most likely. This depends on how the Fidelius Charm actually works. If indeed the attack was imminent, I reckon Snape would have told the Order.
2B I guess he was.
2C This is my greatest objection to the theory, I can't believe Lupin wouldn't let James know who the SK was.
Why didn't they use "Lupin" as Secret Keeper? I don't know and I guess "James" or Lily or Sirius or Dumbledore or even Ernie Prang would've been a better choice, but the fact is they chose Wormtail and we can't chance that.
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mollis - Sep 23, 2003 6:16 am (#136 of 528)
Susurro, I think you hit the nail right on the head with your last post! I too have been following this thread, mostly for entertainment since I have a hard time believing it. Mainly for your reason 1A, I don't see how a husband would switch bodies and not tell his wife. There would definately be issues! And if they did tell her, then Lupins body should have been secret keeper and the theory may have worked for me.
I don't mean to bust anyone's bubble or cause upset, I love the theories here. It is what makes it so fun!
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Denise P. - Sep 23, 2003 6:25 am (#137 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
I think when the switch occurred, that it was not meant to be for any extended length of time. With that in mind, I can certainly see why James would NOT have told Lily. I would have to assume that a switching spell is not an easy thing to do (if you buy into the whole switching spell theory) and probably dangerous. I know that if my husband told me he and a friend were going to do something that would potentially be a HUGE problem, I would try to stop him. If Lily would have done that, yep...James is a typical man and would have just done it anyway. I really believe that the switch was only supposed to be for under an hour and then things went horribly wrong.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 23, 2003 7:02 am (#138 of 528)
Edited by Sep 23, 2003 7:28 am
Denise, you know I have been behind this theory from the beginning and you are probably right about WHY Lily did not know. My guess it had to do with James wanting to go after Voldy after hearing from DD that Harry was a target. Lily told him not to and he used Lupin to accomplish this task.
However, the "only..under an hour" doesn't fit with the reaction "Lupin" had to finding out Sirius was not the traitor. If James had made the switch with Lupin only an hour before than I would assume he would have known Sirius was not the Secret Keeper. I have always believed that if this is true the switch was made before Peter was made Secret Keeper. Here is my proposed time line for the events:
1: Trewlawny predicts a child will bring down Voldy. Spy overhears in Hogs Head (my theory is Dung but that is on another board and not relevant here) 2: About a year later Voldy finds out and realizes there are two babies that fit this prophecy 3: DD finds out Voldy knows (perhaps a regret from the spy) 4: He goes to Longbottoms and Potter and tells them of danger 5: Some time before the Potter's die, James tells Lily he cannot sit around and decides to go after Voldy himself. She makes him promise not to and he does. He talks Lupin in to a Switching Spell so he can go after Voldy. 6: Lily cast Fidelus Charm with Peter as secret keeper after Sirius suggestion. "Lupin" left thinking Sirius was going to be the secret keeper. 7: Sometime during that week "Lupin" decides to get the spell undone and goes to Sirius to find location. Sirius thinks Lupin is the traitor and refuses to tell him (even though cannot) and refuses to tell "Lupin" that Peter is the real secret keeper. 8: Voldy attacks and kills "James" and Lily and gets destroyed by baby Potter. 9: "Lupin" is now stuck because his real body is destroyed and he is stuck unable to protect his son and goes in to hiding.
The reaction the Shrieking Shack seems to imply that "Lupin" thought Sirius to be the traitor and was extremely relieved when he was wrong.
and one other thing...for all you parents out there...if you had just been told your son was going to be killed by the baddest wizard of them all, would intimacy be a huge problem for you? I doubt that it would have been for Lily and "James" at this time.
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Denise P. - Sep 23, 2003 7:09 am (#139 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Uhm, let's not go down that road with the intimacy speculation. Keep in mind that we are a kid friendly forum
I just don't think that either James or Lupin meant for the switch to be an extended period of time. I think it was done, they would confront Sirius, switch back and THEN tell Lily about it. Those plans were blown to bits when Voldemort showed up, obviously.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 23, 2003 7:29 am (#140 of 528)
I didn't mean for the conversation to go there, but was just trying to show that at that point it would not have been a concern for any party involved.
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Joost! - Sep 23, 2003 7:54 am (#141 of 528)
Second line of information
Bluenote, you've almost pulled me over to your side. I think you make a very strong point with the time line you constructed.
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Fawkesy Lady - Sep 23, 2003 10:09 am (#142 of 528)
This is kind of in connection with Bluenote's theory (which by-the-way is very good!). If James and Lupin switched (supposedly for a short period of time), then "James'" body would change into a werewolf, but since he was killed by LV no one knew. If James is in Lupin's body, people know that he is a werewolf and therefore changed his animagus form into a werewolf. In PoA where "Lupin" only changes into a werewolf after the moon comes from behind the clouds (clearing up the question)after coming out from the Shrieking Shack and James/Lupin realizes he should have changed, so he does, and to avoid meeting up with anyone, runs into the Forbidden Forest.
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Susurro Notities - Sep 23, 2003 1:35 pm (#143 of 528)
Bluenote,
I agree with your time line up to the middle of point 5.
1: Trewlawny predicts a child will bring down Voldy. Spy overhears in Hogs Head (my theory is Dung but that is on another board and not relevant here) 2: About a year later Voldy finds out and realizes there are two babies that fit this prophecy 3: DD finds out Voldy knows (perhaps a regret from the spy) 4: He goes to Longbottoms and Potter and tells them of danger 5: Some time before the Potter's die, James tells Lily he cannot sit around and decides to go after Voldy himself. She makes him promise not to and he does.
It is at this point that I see some difficulties.
He talks Lupin in to a Switching Spell so he can go after Voldy. 6: Lily cast Fidelus Charm with Peter as secret keeper after Sirius suggestion. "Lupin" left thinking Sirius was going to be the secret keeper.
The difficulties are as follows: 1. If James is going after Voldemort it is likely that he would be gone for an extended period of time or at least for more than an hour. 2. Which brings up the intimacy issue again. 3. Men with decent marriages (I agree with you Joost perfect may not be the correct word to describe the marriage but I would expect it was solid or decent.) might go to the bar after promising not to but would they go into mortal combat? 4. Why would James and Lily wait to cast the Fidelus Charm? Why not do it as soon as possible after they found out about the prophecy? Surely Dumbledore would have immediately told them of ways to protect their family. 5. If Sirius suspected that Lupin was a traitor why wouldn't he have shared this with James? 6. If he did share it with James would James have left Lily and Harry in Lupin's care? 7. Would James switch with Lupin without telling Sirius?
I am sure there are answers to many if not all of these questions but there are a lot of questions. Is it believable that James, Sirius, Lily, and Lupin would have failed to react in a reasonable manner in all these aspects? I know that James' arrogance could account for his belief that he could single handed take on Voldemort but is he really such a complete jerk that he would betray his wife?
Ok Shoot!
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Madame Librarian - Sep 23, 2003 2:22 pm (#144 of 528)
Susurro, when you post in italics in the light brown type color, I have a hard time reading. Thanks.
Ciao. Barb
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Madam Pince - Sep 23, 2003 3:52 pm (#145 of 528)
The eyes are the windows to the soul...
Barb, you can just run your mouse over her letters and highlight them, and then they should be fine to read. On my computer, hers are not in italics and are a medium-dark brown.
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Madame Librarian - Sep 23, 2003 4:23 pm (#146 of 528)
Madam P, I will try that. Thanks.
Ciao. Barb
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Lei Storm - Sep 23, 2003 6:07 pm (#147 of 528)
Those are good points. Also,why would Lupin want to commit in the first place? If James told him it would only be for a few hours why didn't he rethink? Didn't they both know what Voldemort was like? Didn't they both know he attacked without warning,in an unlikely way? I would think Lupin would be more intelligent than that. I would also think James would have had at least an inch of common sense to realize what all could go wrong. Then again,this is only my thoughts.
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Susurro Notities - Sep 23, 2003 7:36 pm (#148 of 528)
Edited by Sep 23, 2003 7:53 pm
Sorry Madame Librarian, I will experiment with some other colors.
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Joost! - Sep 24, 2003 12:31 am (#149 of 528)
Second line of information
Lei has got a point there. If James goes after the Dark Lord, not only does he leave his family, but he ought to have known there was a chance he would not return. Taking on the most powerful dark wizard of all times is not without risk. He would be risking his own life and the body of his friend.
Although, I can imagine Lupin and James agreeing that it would be better to lose the body of a werewolf than a "healthy" body.
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Madam Poppy - Sep 24, 2003 2:05 am (#150 of 528)
Kirsten Valleskey
Edited by Sep 24, 2003 2:06 am
Susurro, the 2nd color in your last post is much easier to read, though it doesn't perfectly match now with your picture. Thanks
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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Lupin is really James Potter (Post 151 to 200)
Elanor Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:03 pm
Bluenote1313 - Sep 24, 2003 5:58 am (#151 of 528)
Well, Lupin may have offered to switch to prove that he wasn't the traitor. As Lupin, James would have been able to tell first hand if DE approached him or avoided him.
As far as the intimacy thing, James and Lily's son was in mortal danger, it would have been the LAST thing on their mind at that point.
Also, we know James listens to almost no one. It makes perfect sense, considering his past, that he would tell Lily that he will not go after Voldy and then try to go out and take care of the problem before it found him. He had to have known a Fidelus Charm was going to be cast and he thought he would be able to get back to his family. From what we have heard and seen, James seems just the type of guy to think he can handle this problem himself. Remember the prophecy, the child would be born to people who have three times defied the Dark Lord. Three times Lily and James had survived a confrontation with Voldy, maybe he assumed he wouldbe able to do it again if he caught up with him.
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Madame Librarian - Sep 24, 2003 3:39 pm (#152 of 528)
Susurro,
Thanks! That darker brown works for me.
Ciao. Barb
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Marye Lupin - Sep 24, 2003 4:05 pm (#153 of 528)
"I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building." Peanuts
I do see one major problem with this theory (and I know I'm one of the "supporters", but I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment). While I can picture James doing somthing as drastic as this (especially after seeing him in the Pensieve) I cannot picture Lupin going along with it (especially if he knew Lily didn't like the idea). Lupin always struck me as the sensible one in the group and I know that if I were searching for an accomplice in such a risky plan, I would go to Sirius, not Lupin.
Hey maybe Sirius was really James
(just to clarify--this is a joke, not speculation)
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Michelle K. - Sep 24, 2003 4:16 pm (#154 of 528)
Wow, such thought put into the theory. I like it alot. I agree with Bluenote on the intimacy issue, I doubt Lily and James were thinking about that. Harry was in danger and if James thought he could save his son I believe he would have done anything to save him, including trading bodies with Lupin.
I also can see many reasons for not telling Sirius and/or Lily:
1. Lupin and James thought the switch would be only for a few hours.
2. Didn't want to worry Lily. Who by the way was a new mother.
3. James didn't tell Lupin that he and Lily switched secret keepers. So using Lupin instead of Sirius made sense.
4. I think that by using Lupin it showed Lupin that James trusted him. I always go back to the part in POA when Lupin says werewolves are untrustworthy.
While I love reading the theory. I don't think that Lupin is James. JKR said that Harry's parents ARE dead.
But it's still fun to imagine.
Michelle
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Susurro Notities - Sep 24, 2003 7:01 pm (#155 of 528)
Edited by Sep 24, 2003 7:13 pm
Well, Lupin may have offered to switch to prove that he wasn't the traitor. As Lupin, James would have been able to tell first hand if DE approached him or avoided him. Bluenote this is an interesting thought. Almost convincing enough to get me to believe this theory. But no, I still don't buy it.
I cannot picture Lupin going along with it (especially if he knew Lily didn't like the idea). Lupin always struck me as the sensible one in the group and I know that if I were searching for an accomplice in such a risky plan, I would go to Sirius, not Lupin. Marye Lupin, Excellent thought.
Michelle K.,
Harry was in danger and if James thought he could save his son I believe he would have done anything to save him, including trading bodies with Lupin. Of course he would have. But would he have deceived his wife? It is important to remember that intimacy is not just what we first think of. It is words, thoughts, feelings, reactions, and history. In the context of everyday interaction between a husband and wife these all come up hundreds of times. Would Lupin have responded correctly? What would Lily think? No I can't imagine the switch happening without Lily's knowledge.
1. Lupin and James thought the switch would be only for a few hours. Ah yes. "Off to fight the Dark Lord. Be back soon." I think James might have arrogantly thought just that, but he must have known it might take considerably longer than a few hours. Lupin being the more level headed of the two, as Marye Lupin pointed out, would certainly wanted to explore the ramifications of James fighting Voldemort on his own and of the switch itself.
2. Didn't want to worry Lily. How important is worry compared to betrayal?
3. James didn't tell Lupin that he and Lily switched secret keepers. So using Lupin instead of Sirius made sense. If James didn't trust Lupin enough to tell him about the switch then why would he leave his family with him?
4. I think that by using Lupin it showed Lupin that James trusted him. I always go back to the part in POA when Lupin says werewolves are untrustworthy. I understand that James might want to show he trusted Lupin but I think telling him about the switch would have done the trick.
Imagining is fun. I wish there was a way that Harry could have one of his parents or at least Sirius back I think that is what makes this theory so appealing. Unfortunately I don't think it is going to happen. (But the debate is fun!)
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Lei Storm - Sep 24, 2003 8:03 pm (#156 of 528)
Remeber that James is an adult now. He may still have had reckless moments but when your in the face of danger,and your family might get murdered any minute,I think that would be one of the times to use your brain instead of your wants. As for him not telling Lily,that would be a sensible approach. Remeber in OotP he stopped being such a jerk when he saw Lily.His voice became much deeper and pleasenter.THat would show that he truly cares for her,so it would be unlikely that he would do that to her.How does he even know where Voldemort is anyway? Fascinating theory though.
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LilyP - Sep 24, 2003 11:59 pm (#157 of 528)
Wow, I've been reading this thread for a long time, but these recent posts are getting me thinking. If it were my husband, he'd do anything to protect our kids.
OK, maybe I missed part of the discussion, but how do we KNOW that Lily didn't know about the switch? Maybe she did know.
Wow, the prospect of Harry having a parent back is wonderful.
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Joost! - Sep 25, 2003 1:26 am (#158 of 528)
Second line of information
Well, if Lily did know, she wouldn't use change the Secret Keeper without letting James know.
Lei Storm: "How does he (James) even know where Voldemort is anyway?"
Apparently he didn't know, because while James was out searching, LV showed up at his house and murdered his family.
And about Lupin offering to switch to prove he's not the traitor. In my opinion, if James had any doubts about Lupin, he wouldn't leave him with his family and his body.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 25, 2003 7:10 am (#159 of 528)
That's why I don't think James thought Lupin the traitor...I think James though Sirius the traitor and that is why he had the reaction he did in the shack in PoA.
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Lei Storm - Sep 25, 2003 3:52 pm (#160 of 528)
Joost:Exactly. Are we expected to beleive,with all the suspision floating around,that he would leave his family in the care of another? I mean come on.
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Merlyn - Sep 26, 2003 7:31 pm (#161 of 528)
How do you explain away the fact that in GOF the shades of both James and Lily came out of Voldemort's wand during the Priori Incantatem episode?
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schoff - Sep 26, 2003 10:22 pm (#162 of 528)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Merlyn: I think the explanation being used is that the priori spell showed their physical form, not their spiritual form.
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Denise S. - Sep 27, 2003 8:56 pm (#163 of 528)
We are not a cult, we're just slightly obsessed and mentally unstable. There's a difference. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Wait...during the Priori Incantatum, didn't James say something to the effect of "hold on, son, we're helping you"? If he did, I don't see why physically-James-spiritually-Lupin would go call him son.
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mischa fan - Sep 27, 2003 9:04 pm (#164 of 528)
Easy being green, it is not
Nice try Denise, but in my copy the "echo" of James didn't call Harry son.
"When the connection is broken, we will linger for only moments...but we will give you time. .. you must get to the Portkey, it will return you to Hogwarts... do you understand, Harry?"
That is what Harry's father said to him in GoF.
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Denise S. - Sep 27, 2003 9:20 pm (#165 of 528)
We are not a cult, we're just slightly obsessed and mentally unstable. There's a difference. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Ach!!! It wasn't a sneaky try, it was my attempt to remember a small snippet of dialogue that I last read...what, a year ago?!
(dang, there went a potential rebuttal )
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mischa fan - Sep 27, 2003 9:28 pm (#166 of 528)
Easy being green, it is not
I didn't mean nice try as in you wear being sneaky, I really thought you had cannon evidence that would be a major blow to the theory, I was disappointed when I checked out GoF.
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Pat Fuller - Sep 28, 2003 2:42 pm (#167 of 528)
I've read all the posts for and against Lupin being James Potter. I haven't made up my mind yet but...if he was, couldn't that explain where Hagrid took Harry after Lily was killed...to spend one last time with James. There are a lot of unknowns here I know, but suppose somehow Dumbledore knew of the switch (maybe he performed it) and instructed Hagrid to take Harry to Lupin/James knowing that he would have to place Harry in the care of his Aunt and Uncle. Just a thought.
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mischa fan - Sep 28, 2003 3:37 pm (#168 of 528)
Easy being green, it is not
Hi Pat, I don't see James letting his son go to live with the Dursleys, even if he was in the body of Lupin. I do accept that it is possible that James would do that if no one knew about the switch, but if Dumbledore knew that I couldn't see James do any less then demand to raise his son.
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Marye Lupin - Sep 28, 2003 3:40 pm (#169 of 528)
"I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building." Peanuts
What Denise said made me think of something (and I apologize if somebody already mentioned this, I don't remember)-- In the original edition of GoF, James (or whoever he is) comes out of the wand first and says something along the lines of "your mother's coming". When the whole who-died-first mistake was caught it was changed, and I'm assuming it was changed to something along the lines of "your father is coming". Now that I think about it I don't know how much this affects the theory (it could also mean that Lily didn't know about the switch) but I thought it was interesting. Does anybody know what the wording is in the newer editions?
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mischa fan - Sep 28, 2003 3:49 pm (#170 of 528)
Easy being green, it is not
"Your father is coming..."she said quietly. "Hold on for your father...it will be all right...hold on..."
And he came...first his head, then his body...tall and untidy-haired like Harry, the smoky, shadowy form of James Potter blossomed from the end of Voldemort's wand, fell to the ground and straightened like his wife. He walked close to Harry, looking down at him, and he spoke in the same distant, echoing voice as the others, but quietly, so that Voldemort, his face now livid with fear as his victims prowled around him, could not hear...
That is what it says in my book, paper back version.
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Hem Hem - Sep 29, 2003 5:54 pm (#171 of 528)
And the revised version does qualify as canon, right? So do we guess that Lily's soul never learned that she was experiencing her "afterlife" with someone other than her husband? Gee, I don't like that approach.
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Fawkesy Lady - Sep 29, 2003 6:55 pm (#172 of 528)
But, that could be like wizard photographs. Perhaps Lily's soul comes out of the wand as if she was just killed. Like photos, the people the pictures are of still continue on with life, but the photos still move. The souls coming out of the wand could be like the photos and the "real" souls have gone on to wherever wizard souls go.
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mischa fan - Sep 29, 2003 7:18 pm (#173 of 528)
Easy being green, it is not
But Fawkesy Lady, James knew about the Triwizard cup and knew it would take Harry back to Hogwarts, I doubt he knew that when he was killed.
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Fawkesy Lady - Sep 30, 2003 1:06 pm (#174 of 528)
Good point mischa, thanks!
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Lei Storm - Oct 5, 2003 1:16 am (#175 of 528)
I'm so confused. Number on: What is with this thing of everyone suspecting another of being a traitor?Where did we come up with that? Number two: I would think that James wold have more of a heart than to betray his wife and put her in possible danger.
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Gryffindor Ghost - Oct 5, 2003 7:15 am (#176 of 528)
Lupin: "Now that we could all transform." (Chapter 18) [ Why wouldn't he say "Now that they could all transform"?
Well, I am a first timer here but let me voice my opinion. Lupin said that "we could all transform" because he himself transforms into a werewolf (though every full moon only). He did not give himself away as James, because I certainly believe that Lupin is not James.
As with his show of emotion every time Harry mentions his parents, well, that's obvious isn't it? He is a friend of James and Lily. Therefore, he is emotionally affected by the mere mention of them.
But your theory is plausible. Let's just see if it's true or not.
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Gryffindor Ghost - Oct 6, 2003 7:23 am (#177 of 528)
Mischa fan, did you read what Dumbledore said about the "echoes" of spells? Harry's wand made Voldy's regurgitate the spells it performed-in reverse order. The echo of James knew about the Triwizard Tournament because, as Dumbledore says, the echo retains the character and personality of the person. That's why you may note that all the other echoes are talking to Harry as they would in that situation if they are alive even if they haven't met him (like the case of Bertha Jorkins and the old Muggle).
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::StinkerBell:: - Oct 11, 2003 11:59 pm (#178 of 528)
Use to be LongLiveSnuffles.....
Seems a bit too star wars-ish..... Harry,I am your father........
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Yavanna - Oct 13, 2003 12:20 pm (#179 of 528)
But if Lupin is James wouldn't he want to kill Peter because of what he did to his wife insteed of being calm when he had a chance.Every reasonable man would do that.
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Joost! - Oct 14, 2003 12:44 am (#180 of 528)
Second line of information
Every reasonable would become a murderer? That's a rather cynical statement, isn't it? Harry didn't and he's hardly a reasonable man. Lupin wanted to kill Wormtail when he knew he was a traitor, but Harry stopped him.
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Amanda Potter - Oct 14, 2003 11:57 am (#181 of 528)
I tend to agree with Griffindor Ghost that Lupin was so close to James, Sirius and Peter that he loves Harry more like a Nephew. I don't think that Lupin is James although I did like the thought of it and the possibilties of it. One might wonder what JKR is really playing at?
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Yavanna - Oct 15, 2003 7:20 am (#182 of 528)
Harry wanted to kill Sirius when he thought Sirius was responsible for the death of his parents.He cooled out later. What I wanted to say is that every man would drive crazy if he would find out that his wife (and his best friend)is murdered.And the first thing he would do in his madnes,would be doing the same thing to the murderer (the traitor in this case).I don't say it's necesarry for him to become a murderer.Harry didn't become a murderer although he wanted to kill.The same goes for the 5th book,when Sirius dies.
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Joost! - Oct 15, 2003 7:56 am (#183 of 528)
Second line of information
Remember that Lupin/James has had 12 years to think about what happened and he knew for a year that the murderer was out of prison, Yavanna, I think his judgment was very clouded at the moment he first saw Sirius or Wormtail.
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Tara Wilkinson - Oct 23, 2003 1:25 pm (#184 of 528)
when i read the title of the discussion, i thought, "that is too far-fetched to even consider," but i'm always open to new ideas about the series since JKR has proven that almost anything is possible in her books. after thinking about it for awhile, i started to wonder about the whole prefect deal. all throughout the series, we read that James and Lily were Head Boy and Girl, but in OP28, we find out that James wasn't even a prefect... but Lupin was. i have no idea how that woud fit in to your theory, Landman, but it's definitly something to think about.
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Hem Hem - Oct 23, 2003 5:25 pm (#185 of 528)
Wecome to the forum, Tara! Go over the the Kip Carter "-- Tell About Yourself (new)" 10/22/03 12:21pm thread to introduce yourself! We're happy to have contribute to the discussions! If you look up "James Prefect" in the search function (which can be found in the teal bar a the top of your menu), you should find all sorts of interpretations of Sirius' comment. Have fun!
As an aside, I wanted to remind you to read Lexicon Steve "-- Philosophy of this Forum - Please Read!" 9/7/03 1:46pm . Proper capitalization is important to make your posts easier to read for all of our members, which includes young children and people who are not native English speakers.
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abby holmes - Oct 25, 2003 4:22 pm (#186 of 528)
I have enjoyed this theory since first discovering it, but the only way I buy it is if Lupin and James switched bodies while still at Hogwarts. This would explain the prefect indiscrepency as well as how Lily ended up marrying someone she so clearly despised. The best evidence that supports the theory relates to Sirius telling Harry in Oop that James's parents had taken Sirius in as a second son and Lupin and Sirius embracing as brothers in the Shrieking Shack. I believe that JK takes parenthood seriously and that she would not encourage readers to like a character if he is essentially, a dead-beat dad (as in the case where Lupin and James switched shortly before Lily is killed). In the theory where they switch at school (perhaps encouraged by DD because it was essential that James stay alive) Harry would be a Potter biologically, but was raised by Remus until he was killed by Voldemort. This would explain why the living Lupin takes more of an interest in Harry than other students, but is able tp keep his distance.
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Madame Librarian - Oct 25, 2003 6:21 pm (#187 of 528)
abby, if they "switched bodies while still at Hogwarts," how could Harry still be a Potter biologically? Do you mean that Lily married Lupin, thinking it was Lupin, but all along it was really James-as-Lupin? Obviously I am confused. Help!
Ciao. Barb
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Sassi Fras - Oct 25, 2003 7:12 pm (#188 of 528)
I think she means Lily married James' body inhabited by Lupin, but since it was James' body, Harry would biologically be a Potter. (Sorry if that isn't overly clear, but I don't think the other way I could explain it would be appropriate for the forum.) Since Lupin is in James' body, emotionally he would be Harry's father.
Now that is definately as clear as mud. I hope you aren't further confused.
Personally, I don't believe this is the case, but it is a very interesting senerio.
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Joost! - Oct 26, 2003 1:35 am (#189 of 528)
Second line of information
So, Lupin is Harry's father (transferring James' genes to Harry), but James' father is Harry's grandfather?
Why would they have switched? Lupin-James seems like a nice guy in PoA and OoP, would he let Lupin give his life to save himself? It sounds odd, in my opinion...
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timrew - Oct 26, 2003 5:44 am (#190 of 528)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I think this is one of those theories that it's fun to speculate on, but which is (IMHO) a load of old banana skins!
Other theories which I lump under the same category (also IMHO), are Harry and Ginny being brother and sister; and Snape being a Vampire. But, as I said, it's fun to talk about them!
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Weeny Owl - Oct 26, 2003 8:41 am (#191 of 528)
This is an interesting theory but not one I could see JKR using because after going through all of these posts, it's still pretty darned confusing. I think if she did decide to use this, she would have to write another book just to explain it.
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Lei Storm - Oct 27, 2003 7:24 pm (#192 of 528)
Also I don't think J.K. will want to bring all this confusion to her readers. When I was in the bookstore waiing fot OotP, I saw 6 year old kids! They would have a pretty hard time understanding this.
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schoff - Oct 27, 2003 10:16 pm (#193 of 528)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Actually, I don't think it's all that hard to understand. That is, if you take all the technical stuff out of it...
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Sinister Kittens - Oct 28, 2003 4:37 am (#194 of 528)
I've put myself on Lurk only status, sorry I haven't been chatting but I have been reading about you all ;-).
Tim - i'm totally with you, but does this mean you are in favour of the DIGS theory? ;-)
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Ihavebothbuttocks - Oct 28, 2003 6:28 am (#195 of 528)
Hmmm...giant squid and a load of old banana skins. Shouldn't this be moved to the recipes topic?
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timrew - Oct 28, 2003 4:04 pm (#196 of 528)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Sinister Kittens, The DIGS theory....hmmm.
I've made this opinion about Dumbledore before. I don't think that he is an animagus. I just think he can turn himself into whatever he likes; the giant squid, the bumblebee that Harry sees while doing his exam......whatever!
He doesn't even need an invisibility cloak to become invisible. The man is the greatest wizard of all time, so if he wanted to become a giant squid, I don't see it being a problem for him.
As for the recipe, Ihavebothbuttocks, Squid and Banana Skins? Well, don't knock it until you've tried it.....
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Lei Storm - Oct 29, 2003 5:08 pm (#197 of 528)
schoff:Yeah, but still I can't see J.K. bringing back Harry's dad in someone elses body,not after having Harry live 15 years with the Dursleys. It just doesn't seem to fit.
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zelmia - Nov 14, 2003 11:48 am (#198 of 528)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
The One Reason Why This Theory Couldn't Work
There is not any such thing as a "Body-Switching Spell".
"Well, how do YOU know?" you will ask. Because if there was such a thing, why would Crouch Jr. have gone through all the bother and risk of using Polyjuice Potion during his stint as DADA teacher?
Polyjuice Potion has to be taken every hour. He had to constantly consume this concoction to be able to pull off his little mission. And while he was successful, undoubtedly if there was a "Body Swap" spell, he would have used this instead. Even if the incantation had only a short-lived effect (as has been suggested earlier in the thread), the risk of discovery would have been almost nil. Even if the spell wore off, Junior would have simply found himself back in his own skin, from where he could still control Moody (under the Imperius Curse) to perform the spell again.
For that matter, if there was a "Body Swap" spell, the whole business of installing Junior would have been completely unnecessary. Voldemort could have simply gone to collect Harry from Hogwarts himself, using Moody's body. (Or for that matter, any of the other little errands he sent his followers to do.) If such a spell existed, why wouldn't Voldemort just use Moody's body, go fetch Harry, kill Moody (or keep him around for future use), brew potion to reincarnate self, and kill Harry once and for all?
"What if you need a sort of 'third part cast-er'? Some objective person to perform the spell on the two parties being swapped?" you might ask. Well if that is the case, then the effects of the spell must certainly last until the "return swap" spell is performed. In which case that is an even better argument for why the spell could not exist. [NOTE: Incidentally, if there was such a spell, I doubt the effects of it would be only temporary. I think it would be more like transfiguration, which lasts until one is re-transfigured to their original form.]
Because if it did, as I've pointed out above, Voldemort would no doubt have performed in on Junior and Moody, rather than use the Polyjuice Potion in GF. If it did, Junior could have performed it on Voldemort and Crouch Sr. and so Voldemort could have walked right in to the Ministry as Crouch Sr. and done whatever he wanted.
"Well, maybe the 'Body Swap' spell is too arcane/obscure/advanced..." you might argue. Voldemort showed us in OP that he is indeed a VERY powerful wizard. His knowledge is unfathomable, almost as much as Dumbledore's. He would surely either know or learn how to use this spell if it existed - if for no other reason than to give himself the ability to move about voluntarily without having to be carted around by Wormtail.
Thank you for your kind attention.
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Weeny Owl - Nov 14, 2003 4:00 pm (#199 of 528)
That is absolutely the BEST explanation I've ever read about the whole "body-switching spell" thing, Zelmia.
I've never been able to put into words why I didn't feel it would work, but you've cleared it up nicely... thanks!
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Landman - Nov 15, 2003 7:26 pm (#200 of 528)
Zelmia - I appreciate the thought and work you put into your explanation, but the fact is that you have no way of knowing if a 'body-switching spell' exists in JKR's universe. And how could you, a mere muggle, know what it takes to perform the spell. Maybe both parties have to explicitly agree to the switch, maybe something else -- we just don't know.
There are no absolutes in this universe unless JKR has told us so. You say things in your post like "must" and "certainly" but you can't really use words like that.
In a magical universe, anything is possible unless the author tells us it's not.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Well, Lupin may have offered to switch to prove that he wasn't the traitor. As Lupin, James would have been able to tell first hand if DE approached him or avoided him.
As far as the intimacy thing, James and Lily's son was in mortal danger, it would have been the LAST thing on their mind at that point.
Also, we know James listens to almost no one. It makes perfect sense, considering his past, that he would tell Lily that he will not go after Voldy and then try to go out and take care of the problem before it found him. He had to have known a Fidelus Charm was going to be cast and he thought he would be able to get back to his family. From what we have heard and seen, James seems just the type of guy to think he can handle this problem himself. Remember the prophecy, the child would be born to people who have three times defied the Dark Lord. Three times Lily and James had survived a confrontation with Voldy, maybe he assumed he wouldbe able to do it again if he caught up with him.
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Madame Librarian - Sep 24, 2003 3:39 pm (#152 of 528)
Susurro,
Thanks! That darker brown works for me.
Ciao. Barb
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Marye Lupin - Sep 24, 2003 4:05 pm (#153 of 528)
"I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building." Peanuts
I do see one major problem with this theory (and I know I'm one of the "supporters", but I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment). While I can picture James doing somthing as drastic as this (especially after seeing him in the Pensieve) I cannot picture Lupin going along with it (especially if he knew Lily didn't like the idea). Lupin always struck me as the sensible one in the group and I know that if I were searching for an accomplice in such a risky plan, I would go to Sirius, not Lupin.
Hey maybe Sirius was really James
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Michelle K. - Sep 24, 2003 4:16 pm (#154 of 528)
Wow, such thought put into the theory. I like it alot. I agree with Bluenote on the intimacy issue, I doubt Lily and James were thinking about that. Harry was in danger and if James thought he could save his son I believe he would have done anything to save him, including trading bodies with Lupin.
I also can see many reasons for not telling Sirius and/or Lily:
1. Lupin and James thought the switch would be only for a few hours.
2. Didn't want to worry Lily. Who by the way was a new mother.
3. James didn't tell Lupin that he and Lily switched secret keepers. So using Lupin instead of Sirius made sense.
4. I think that by using Lupin it showed Lupin that James trusted him. I always go back to the part in POA when Lupin says werewolves are untrustworthy.
While I love reading the theory. I don't think that Lupin is James. JKR said that Harry's parents ARE dead.
But it's still fun to imagine.
Michelle
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Susurro Notities - Sep 24, 2003 7:01 pm (#155 of 528)
Edited by Sep 24, 2003 7:13 pm
Well, Lupin may have offered to switch to prove that he wasn't the traitor. As Lupin, James would have been able to tell first hand if DE approached him or avoided him. Bluenote this is an interesting thought. Almost convincing enough to get me to believe this theory. But no, I still don't buy it.
I cannot picture Lupin going along with it (especially if he knew Lily didn't like the idea). Lupin always struck me as the sensible one in the group and I know that if I were searching for an accomplice in such a risky plan, I would go to Sirius, not Lupin. Marye Lupin, Excellent thought.
Michelle K.,
Harry was in danger and if James thought he could save his son I believe he would have done anything to save him, including trading bodies with Lupin. Of course he would have. But would he have deceived his wife? It is important to remember that intimacy is not just what we first think of. It is words, thoughts, feelings, reactions, and history. In the context of everyday interaction between a husband and wife these all come up hundreds of times. Would Lupin have responded correctly? What would Lily think? No I can't imagine the switch happening without Lily's knowledge.
1. Lupin and James thought the switch would be only for a few hours. Ah yes. "Off to fight the Dark Lord. Be back soon." I think James might have arrogantly thought just that, but he must have known it might take considerably longer than a few hours. Lupin being the more level headed of the two, as Marye Lupin pointed out, would certainly wanted to explore the ramifications of James fighting Voldemort on his own and of the switch itself.
2. Didn't want to worry Lily. How important is worry compared to betrayal?
3. James didn't tell Lupin that he and Lily switched secret keepers. So using Lupin instead of Sirius made sense. If James didn't trust Lupin enough to tell him about the switch then why would he leave his family with him?
4. I think that by using Lupin it showed Lupin that James trusted him. I always go back to the part in POA when Lupin says werewolves are untrustworthy. I understand that James might want to show he trusted Lupin but I think telling him about the switch would have done the trick.
Imagining is fun. I wish there was a way that Harry could have one of his parents or at least Sirius back I think that is what makes this theory so appealing. Unfortunately I don't think it is going to happen. (But the debate is fun!)
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Lei Storm - Sep 24, 2003 8:03 pm (#156 of 528)
Remeber that James is an adult now. He may still have had reckless moments but when your in the face of danger,and your family might get murdered any minute,I think that would be one of the times to use your brain instead of your wants. As for him not telling Lily,that would be a sensible approach. Remeber in OotP he stopped being such a jerk when he saw Lily.His voice became much deeper and pleasenter.THat would show that he truly cares for her,so it would be unlikely that he would do that to her.How does he even know where Voldemort is anyway? Fascinating theory though.
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LilyP - Sep 24, 2003 11:59 pm (#157 of 528)
Wow, I've been reading this thread for a long time, but these recent posts are getting me thinking. If it were my husband, he'd do anything to protect our kids.
OK, maybe I missed part of the discussion, but how do we KNOW that Lily didn't know about the switch? Maybe she did know.
Wow, the prospect of Harry having a parent back is wonderful.
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Joost! - Sep 25, 2003 1:26 am (#158 of 528)
Second line of information
Well, if Lily did know, she wouldn't use change the Secret Keeper without letting James know.
Lei Storm: "How does he (James) even know where Voldemort is anyway?"
Apparently he didn't know, because while James was out searching, LV showed up at his house and murdered his family.
And about Lupin offering to switch to prove he's not the traitor. In my opinion, if James had any doubts about Lupin, he wouldn't leave him with his family and his body.
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Bluenote1313 - Sep 25, 2003 7:10 am (#159 of 528)
That's why I don't think James thought Lupin the traitor...I think James though Sirius the traitor and that is why he had the reaction he did in the shack in PoA.
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Lei Storm - Sep 25, 2003 3:52 pm (#160 of 528)
Joost:Exactly. Are we expected to beleive,with all the suspision floating around,that he would leave his family in the care of another? I mean come on.
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Merlyn - Sep 26, 2003 7:31 pm (#161 of 528)
How do you explain away the fact that in GOF the shades of both James and Lily came out of Voldemort's wand during the Priori Incantatem episode?
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schoff - Sep 26, 2003 10:22 pm (#162 of 528)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Merlyn: I think the explanation being used is that the priori spell showed their physical form, not their spiritual form.
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Denise S. - Sep 27, 2003 8:56 pm (#163 of 528)
We are not a cult, we're just slightly obsessed and mentally unstable. There's a difference. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Wait...during the Priori Incantatum, didn't James say something to the effect of "hold on, son, we're helping you"? If he did, I don't see why physically-James-spiritually-Lupin would go call him son.
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mischa fan - Sep 27, 2003 9:04 pm (#164 of 528)
Easy being green, it is not
Nice try Denise, but in my copy the "echo" of James didn't call Harry son.
"When the connection is broken, we will linger for only moments...but we will give you time. .. you must get to the Portkey, it will return you to Hogwarts... do you understand, Harry?"
That is what Harry's father said to him in GoF.
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Denise S. - Sep 27, 2003 9:20 pm (#165 of 528)
We are not a cult, we're just slightly obsessed and mentally unstable. There's a difference. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Ach!!! It wasn't a sneaky try, it was my attempt to remember a small snippet of dialogue that I last read...what, a year ago?!
(dang, there went a potential rebuttal )
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mischa fan - Sep 27, 2003 9:28 pm (#166 of 528)
Easy being green, it is not
I didn't mean nice try as in you wear being sneaky, I really thought you had cannon evidence that would be a major blow to the theory, I was disappointed when I checked out GoF.
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Pat Fuller - Sep 28, 2003 2:42 pm (#167 of 528)
I've read all the posts for and against Lupin being James Potter. I haven't made up my mind yet but...if he was, couldn't that explain where Hagrid took Harry after Lily was killed...to spend one last time with James. There are a lot of unknowns here I know, but suppose somehow Dumbledore knew of the switch (maybe he performed it) and instructed Hagrid to take Harry to Lupin/James knowing that he would have to place Harry in the care of his Aunt and Uncle. Just a thought.
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mischa fan - Sep 28, 2003 3:37 pm (#168 of 528)
Easy being green, it is not
Hi Pat, I don't see James letting his son go to live with the Dursleys, even if he was in the body of Lupin. I do accept that it is possible that James would do that if no one knew about the switch, but if Dumbledore knew that I couldn't see James do any less then demand to raise his son.
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Marye Lupin - Sep 28, 2003 3:40 pm (#169 of 528)
"I know the answer! The answer lies within the heart of all mankind! The answer is twelve? I think I'm in the wrong building." Peanuts
What Denise said made me think of something (and I apologize if somebody already mentioned this, I don't remember)-- In the original edition of GoF, James (or whoever he is) comes out of the wand first and says something along the lines of "your mother's coming". When the whole who-died-first mistake was caught it was changed, and I'm assuming it was changed to something along the lines of "your father is coming". Now that I think about it I don't know how much this affects the theory (it could also mean that Lily didn't know about the switch) but I thought it was interesting. Does anybody know what the wording is in the newer editions?
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mischa fan - Sep 28, 2003 3:49 pm (#170 of 528)
Easy being green, it is not
"Your father is coming..."she said quietly. "Hold on for your father...it will be all right...hold on..."
And he came...first his head, then his body...tall and untidy-haired like Harry, the smoky, shadowy form of James Potter blossomed from the end of Voldemort's wand, fell to the ground and straightened like his wife. He walked close to Harry, looking down at him, and he spoke in the same distant, echoing voice as the others, but quietly, so that Voldemort, his face now livid with fear as his victims prowled around him, could not hear...
That is what it says in my book, paper back version.
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Hem Hem - Sep 29, 2003 5:54 pm (#171 of 528)
And the revised version does qualify as canon, right? So do we guess that Lily's soul never learned that she was experiencing her "afterlife" with someone other than her husband? Gee, I don't like that approach.
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Fawkesy Lady - Sep 29, 2003 6:55 pm (#172 of 528)
But, that could be like wizard photographs. Perhaps Lily's soul comes out of the wand as if she was just killed. Like photos, the people the pictures are of still continue on with life, but the photos still move. The souls coming out of the wand could be like the photos and the "real" souls have gone on to wherever wizard souls go.
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mischa fan - Sep 29, 2003 7:18 pm (#173 of 528)
Easy being green, it is not
But Fawkesy Lady, James knew about the Triwizard cup and knew it would take Harry back to Hogwarts, I doubt he knew that when he was killed.
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Fawkesy Lady - Sep 30, 2003 1:06 pm (#174 of 528)
Good point mischa, thanks!
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Lei Storm - Oct 5, 2003 1:16 am (#175 of 528)
I'm so confused. Number on: What is with this thing of everyone suspecting another of being a traitor?Where did we come up with that? Number two: I would think that James wold have more of a heart than to betray his wife and put her in possible danger.
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Gryffindor Ghost - Oct 5, 2003 7:15 am (#176 of 528)
Lupin: "Now that we could all transform." (Chapter 18) [ Why wouldn't he say "Now that they could all transform"?
Well, I am a first timer here but let me voice my opinion. Lupin said that "we could all transform" because he himself transforms into a werewolf (though every full moon only). He did not give himself away as James, because I certainly believe that Lupin is not James.
As with his show of emotion every time Harry mentions his parents, well, that's obvious isn't it? He is a friend of James and Lily. Therefore, he is emotionally affected by the mere mention of them.
But your theory is plausible. Let's just see if it's true or not.
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Gryffindor Ghost - Oct 6, 2003 7:23 am (#177 of 528)
Mischa fan, did you read what Dumbledore said about the "echoes" of spells? Harry's wand made Voldy's regurgitate the spells it performed-in reverse order. The echo of James knew about the Triwizard Tournament because, as Dumbledore says, the echo retains the character and personality of the person. That's why you may note that all the other echoes are talking to Harry as they would in that situation if they are alive even if they haven't met him (like the case of Bertha Jorkins and the old Muggle).
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::StinkerBell:: - Oct 11, 2003 11:59 pm (#178 of 528)
Use to be LongLiveSnuffles.....
Seems a bit too star wars-ish..... Harry,I am your father........
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Yavanna - Oct 13, 2003 12:20 pm (#179 of 528)
But if Lupin is James wouldn't he want to kill Peter because of what he did to his wife insteed of being calm when he had a chance.Every reasonable man would do that.
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Joost! - Oct 14, 2003 12:44 am (#180 of 528)
Second line of information
Every reasonable would become a murderer? That's a rather cynical statement, isn't it? Harry didn't and he's hardly a reasonable man. Lupin wanted to kill Wormtail when he knew he was a traitor, but Harry stopped him.
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Amanda Potter - Oct 14, 2003 11:57 am (#181 of 528)
I tend to agree with Griffindor Ghost that Lupin was so close to James, Sirius and Peter that he loves Harry more like a Nephew. I don't think that Lupin is James although I did like the thought of it and the possibilties of it. One might wonder what JKR is really playing at?
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Yavanna - Oct 15, 2003 7:20 am (#182 of 528)
Harry wanted to kill Sirius when he thought Sirius was responsible for the death of his parents.He cooled out later. What I wanted to say is that every man would drive crazy if he would find out that his wife (and his best friend)is murdered.And the first thing he would do in his madnes,would be doing the same thing to the murderer (the traitor in this case).I don't say it's necesarry for him to become a murderer.Harry didn't become a murderer although he wanted to kill.The same goes for the 5th book,when Sirius dies.
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Joost! - Oct 15, 2003 7:56 am (#183 of 528)
Second line of information
Remember that Lupin/James has had 12 years to think about what happened and he knew for a year that the murderer was out of prison, Yavanna, I think his judgment was very clouded at the moment he first saw Sirius or Wormtail.
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Tara Wilkinson - Oct 23, 2003 1:25 pm (#184 of 528)
when i read the title of the discussion, i thought, "that is too far-fetched to even consider," but i'm always open to new ideas about the series since JKR has proven that almost anything is possible in her books. after thinking about it for awhile, i started to wonder about the whole prefect deal. all throughout the series, we read that James and Lily were Head Boy and Girl, but in OP28, we find out that James wasn't even a prefect... but Lupin was. i have no idea how that woud fit in to your theory, Landman, but it's definitly something to think about.
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Hem Hem - Oct 23, 2003 5:25 pm (#185 of 528)
Wecome to the forum, Tara! Go over the the Kip Carter "-- Tell About Yourself (new)" 10/22/03 12:21pm thread to introduce yourself! We're happy to have contribute to the discussions! If you look up "James Prefect" in the search function (which can be found in the teal bar a the top of your menu), you should find all sorts of interpretations of Sirius' comment. Have fun!
As an aside, I wanted to remind you to read Lexicon Steve "-- Philosophy of this Forum - Please Read!" 9/7/03 1:46pm . Proper capitalization is important to make your posts easier to read for all of our members, which includes young children and people who are not native English speakers.
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abby holmes - Oct 25, 2003 4:22 pm (#186 of 528)
I have enjoyed this theory since first discovering it, but the only way I buy it is if Lupin and James switched bodies while still at Hogwarts. This would explain the prefect indiscrepency as well as how Lily ended up marrying someone she so clearly despised. The best evidence that supports the theory relates to Sirius telling Harry in Oop that James's parents had taken Sirius in as a second son and Lupin and Sirius embracing as brothers in the Shrieking Shack. I believe that JK takes parenthood seriously and that she would not encourage readers to like a character if he is essentially, a dead-beat dad (as in the case where Lupin and James switched shortly before Lily is killed). In the theory where they switch at school (perhaps encouraged by DD because it was essential that James stay alive) Harry would be a Potter biologically, but was raised by Remus until he was killed by Voldemort. This would explain why the living Lupin takes more of an interest in Harry than other students, but is able tp keep his distance.
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Madame Librarian - Oct 25, 2003 6:21 pm (#187 of 528)
abby, if they "switched bodies while still at Hogwarts," how could Harry still be a Potter biologically? Do you mean that Lily married Lupin, thinking it was Lupin, but all along it was really James-as-Lupin? Obviously I am confused. Help!
Ciao. Barb
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Sassi Fras - Oct 25, 2003 7:12 pm (#188 of 528)
I think she means Lily married James' body inhabited by Lupin, but since it was James' body, Harry would biologically be a Potter. (Sorry if that isn't overly clear, but I don't think the other way I could explain it would be appropriate for the forum.) Since Lupin is in James' body, emotionally he would be Harry's father.
Now that is definately as clear as mud. I hope you aren't further confused.
Personally, I don't believe this is the case, but it is a very interesting senerio.
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Joost! - Oct 26, 2003 1:35 am (#189 of 528)
Second line of information
So, Lupin is Harry's father (transferring James' genes to Harry), but James' father is Harry's grandfather?
Why would they have switched? Lupin-James seems like a nice guy in PoA and OoP, would he let Lupin give his life to save himself? It sounds odd, in my opinion...
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timrew - Oct 26, 2003 5:44 am (#190 of 528)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I think this is one of those theories that it's fun to speculate on, but which is (IMHO) a load of old banana skins!
Other theories which I lump under the same category (also IMHO), are Harry and Ginny being brother and sister; and Snape being a Vampire. But, as I said, it's fun to talk about them!
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Weeny Owl - Oct 26, 2003 8:41 am (#191 of 528)
This is an interesting theory but not one I could see JKR using because after going through all of these posts, it's still pretty darned confusing. I think if she did decide to use this, she would have to write another book just to explain it.
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Lei Storm - Oct 27, 2003 7:24 pm (#192 of 528)
Also I don't think J.K. will want to bring all this confusion to her readers. When I was in the bookstore waiing fot OotP, I saw 6 year old kids! They would have a pretty hard time understanding this.
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schoff - Oct 27, 2003 10:16 pm (#193 of 528)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Actually, I don't think it's all that hard to understand. That is, if you take all the technical stuff out of it...
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Sinister Kittens - Oct 28, 2003 4:37 am (#194 of 528)
I've put myself on Lurk only status, sorry I haven't been chatting but I have been reading about you all ;-).
Tim - i'm totally with you, but does this mean you are in favour of the DIGS theory? ;-)
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Ihavebothbuttocks - Oct 28, 2003 6:28 am (#195 of 528)
Hmmm...giant squid and a load of old banana skins. Shouldn't this be moved to the recipes topic?
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timrew - Oct 28, 2003 4:04 pm (#196 of 528)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Sinister Kittens, The DIGS theory....hmmm.
I've made this opinion about Dumbledore before. I don't think that he is an animagus. I just think he can turn himself into whatever he likes; the giant squid, the bumblebee that Harry sees while doing his exam......whatever!
He doesn't even need an invisibility cloak to become invisible. The man is the greatest wizard of all time, so if he wanted to become a giant squid, I don't see it being a problem for him.
As for the recipe, Ihavebothbuttocks, Squid and Banana Skins? Well, don't knock it until you've tried it.....
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Lei Storm - Oct 29, 2003 5:08 pm (#197 of 528)
schoff:Yeah, but still I can't see J.K. bringing back Harry's dad in someone elses body,not after having Harry live 15 years with the Dursleys. It just doesn't seem to fit.
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zelmia - Nov 14, 2003 11:48 am (#198 of 528)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
The One Reason Why This Theory Couldn't Work
There is not any such thing as a "Body-Switching Spell".
"Well, how do YOU know?" you will ask. Because if there was such a thing, why would Crouch Jr. have gone through all the bother and risk of using Polyjuice Potion during his stint as DADA teacher?
Polyjuice Potion has to be taken every hour. He had to constantly consume this concoction to be able to pull off his little mission. And while he was successful, undoubtedly if there was a "Body Swap" spell, he would have used this instead. Even if the incantation had only a short-lived effect (as has been suggested earlier in the thread), the risk of discovery would have been almost nil. Even if the spell wore off, Junior would have simply found himself back in his own skin, from where he could still control Moody (under the Imperius Curse) to perform the spell again.
For that matter, if there was a "Body Swap" spell, the whole business of installing Junior would have been completely unnecessary. Voldemort could have simply gone to collect Harry from Hogwarts himself, using Moody's body. (Or for that matter, any of the other little errands he sent his followers to do.) If such a spell existed, why wouldn't Voldemort just use Moody's body, go fetch Harry, kill Moody (or keep him around for future use), brew potion to reincarnate self, and kill Harry once and for all?
"What if you need a sort of 'third part cast-er'? Some objective person to perform the spell on the two parties being swapped?" you might ask. Well if that is the case, then the effects of the spell must certainly last until the "return swap" spell is performed. In which case that is an even better argument for why the spell could not exist. [NOTE: Incidentally, if there was such a spell, I doubt the effects of it would be only temporary. I think it would be more like transfiguration, which lasts until one is re-transfigured to their original form.]
Because if it did, as I've pointed out above, Voldemort would no doubt have performed in on Junior and Moody, rather than use the Polyjuice Potion in GF. If it did, Junior could have performed it on Voldemort and Crouch Sr. and so Voldemort could have walked right in to the Ministry as Crouch Sr. and done whatever he wanted.
"Well, maybe the 'Body Swap' spell is too arcane/obscure/advanced..." you might argue. Voldemort showed us in OP that he is indeed a VERY powerful wizard. His knowledge is unfathomable, almost as much as Dumbledore's. He would surely either know or learn how to use this spell if it existed - if for no other reason than to give himself the ability to move about voluntarily without having to be carted around by Wormtail.
Thank you for your kind attention.
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Weeny Owl - Nov 14, 2003 4:00 pm (#199 of 528)
That is absolutely the BEST explanation I've ever read about the whole "body-switching spell" thing, Zelmia.
I've never been able to put into words why I didn't feel it would work, but you've cleared it up nicely... thanks!
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Landman - Nov 15, 2003 7:26 pm (#200 of 528)
Zelmia - I appreciate the thought and work you put into your explanation, but the fact is that you have no way of knowing if a 'body-switching spell' exists in JKR's universe. And how could you, a mere muggle, know what it takes to perform the spell. Maybe both parties have to explicitly agree to the switch, maybe something else -- we just don't know.
There are no absolutes in this universe unless JKR has told us so. You say things in your post like "must" and "certainly" but you can't really use words like that.
In a magical universe, anything is possible unless the author tells us it's not.
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Lupin is really James Potter (Post 201 to 250)
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Carina - Nov 15, 2003 7:35 pm (#201 of 528)
and her killer bunny rabbit
That's a good point, Landman. Up to now, we've only really heard of one person casting one spell (if the individual spells are cast simultaniously, the power is combined as in the case of Charlie and Co. vs the dragon). IF there is a body-switching spell (and I'm not sure there is) it may be a two or even three person spell where all participants need to play a part in the incantation in order for it to work right.
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zelmia - Nov 15, 2003 7:56 pm (#202 of 528)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Landman (and others), in fact not any thing is possible in this particular magical universe. For example: people still need to wear glasses to correct their vision, since there is apparently no spell or potion for this type of medical malady. Ditto certain types of scars, which cannot be eliminated. There is no spell for locating or summoning a lost individual (Bertha Jorkins), nor apparently can one Apparate with a baby in her arms.
Rowling has given very specific parameters for what is and is not possible in the world she has created. May I politely suggest taking the opposite tack and assuming that, unless the author specifically mentions something (i.e. Body Swapping Spell/Charm), it does not exist.
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Carina - Nov 15, 2003 9:19 pm (#203 of 528)
and her killer bunny rabbit
Zelmia, I think you and Landman are saying the same thing from opposite sides. The only rules we have for this world are the ones Rowling has decided on, whether or not she's shared them with us yet. There may or may not be a Body-Switching spell. Rowling hasn't told us one way or another if it's possible, so we don't know.
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Landman - Nov 16, 2003 10:16 am (#204 of 528)
Zelmia - read your last post. You use the word "apparently" because I guess even you are not really sure. And I said any thing is possible unless we have been told it can't be done.
We can assume certain things if we want (i.e., wearing glasses) but we can't make definitive statements about them -- and then use these statements to draw further conclusions.
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Third guy from the left - Nov 17, 2003 8:48 am (#205 of 528)
I'm sorry Landman, but I must disagree.
Making assumptions based on what we see in canon is exactly what this forum is about. I see something. I make assumptions based upon it and I draw a conclusion. I then post my conclusion to see what other people make of it because other poeple usually see things that I missed. They post replies based on their assumptions. That's what makes this fun.
Who is right? Who is wrong? If we are lucky, that question might be answered in the remaining books. In the case of this thread, I suspect that it will be answered. In the case of some of the other threads, it might not be.
If we can't make assumptions and draw conclusions from them, then we can't trust Harry's assumptions either. And to be perfectly honest, all that we have so far out of 5 books is Harry's assumptions, what Harry sees and what Harry's been told. If what start questions assumptions to the degree you are talking about, anything is possible. We have no basis on which to have discussions. For all we know, Harry could be a human power source with his mind plugged into a giant computer simulation.
To quote a play I was recently involved in:
Guildenstern: "We only know what we are told, and that's little enough. And for all we know it isn't even true."
Player: "For all anyone knows, nothing is. Everything has to be taken on trust; truth is only that which is taken to be true. It's the currency of living. There may be nothing behind it, but it doesn't make any difference so long as it is honoured. One acts on assumptions. What do you assume?"
Guildenstern and the Player from "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead"
3rd Guy (horribly off topic)
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zelmia - Nov 17, 2003 11:30 am (#206 of 528)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Bravo, Third Guy!
And just to clarify, (and then I am going back to dropping out of this discussion) I used the word "apparently" because it is apparent (evident, clear, obvious, plain... choose your own synonym) from what is written in the text alone. I am drawing a conclusion from what is actually written there. Choosing to focus on "the color" of my choice of words, rather than "the content of their character", make it seem to me that there is no real rebuttal to the points I have made.
Landman: We can assume certain things if we want (i.e., wearing glasses) but we can't make definitive statements about them -- and then use these statements to draw further conclusions.
On the contrary: I think that if we are going to draw any conclusion about what is not given in the text, we need to be using information that is given in the text, not creating our own version of the story to suit our personal desires about its outcome. And in my opinion, what is given in the text of this story does not logically lead to the conclusion that a spell exists which can be performed to allow characters to change bodies.
Thank you for your kind attention...
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Mare - Nov 17, 2003 12:32 pm (#207 of 528)
This is interesting indeed! To draw conclusions. The funny thing is you can't draw conclusions.
Simple example: Suppose you want to say: "All swans are black or white"
A lot of people would say that that is a definte thing, a conclusion. but it is not, because you can never be sure that there isn't a blue one swimming around somewhere. The only way to be absolutely, definitely sure, is to find that blue one.
And then, by doing so, the only thing you did was disprove your theory.
So to say, that there is no such thing as a spell to switch bodies, can not be proved untill that spell is discovered somewhere in the books. And by doing so the theory would be disproved....
but there is hope! since this is a world, created by a person who makes the rules of the world clear to us through her writing, there is the possibility (I think it is a small one) that Hermione blurts out somewhere that there exists no such thing as that spell.
Off course that doesn't say that there can never be one, but that is not really important for this discussion
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Landman - Nov 17, 2003 1:47 pm (#208 of 528)
I'm sorry you misunderstood me Third Guy and Zelmia. I'm not saying you can't make assumptions and have fun discussing them. What I'm saying is you can't make assumptions and state that they are absolutely true (i.e., canon.)
There is not any such thing as a "Body-Switching Spell".
You are stating the above as fact. But you can’t prove a negative. You can’t say something is impossible unless we are told that in the books. For instance, we have been told it is impossible to Disapparate within Hogwarts. This is a fact.
We see Harry and Dumbledore wearing glasses, so we assume that eyesight can't be improved to the point where glasses are unnecessary. This seems like a valid assumption. But show me in any of the books where it says that it is not possible to improve one's eyesight with magic. Without this reference, you can’t say factually that it is impossible.
We know for a fact there is a spell called ACCIO that allows you to call objects to you and we've seen it work many times. BUT what we don't know about it is it's limits. Can Draco Accio Lucius from inside Azkaban? We can make all sorts of interesting assumptions about the nature of accio, and security devices at Azkaban, and whether you can accio a person, but we don't know for sure, because JKR hasn’t told us.
In summary, all I’m saying is that you can certainly make assumptions and statements and try to support them, I just don’t think that they should be presented as hard evidence. You can’t throw away the theory about Lupin and James until such time as JKR states the means to accomplish this is impossible.
P.S. You left off the meaning for apparently that I was referencing --- Appearing as such but not necessarily so; seeming: an apparent advantage.
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Third guy from the left - Nov 17, 2003 2:25 pm (#209 of 528)
If this is going to become a philosophical discussion, then I would like to point out that by your reasoning, while it is stated in canon that you cannot apparate or disapparate within Hogwarts. It cannot be proven. You are making an assumption. Your assumption is that Hermione (through Hogwarts, A History of) and Snape (and whoever else might have stated it) are actually correct when they made the statement. I defy you to prove that they are. The book could be wrong. Snape could be lying. To quote Landman "You can't prove a negative". This is a negative.
Zelmia has made observations, made assumptions from those observations, and has made conclusions based on those observations. (By the way, Mare, you can make conclusions based on assumptions. Those conclusions might not turn out to be correct, but you can make them). Zelmia has drawn conclusions and will likely keep them barring canon or thorough debate. We have to wait until book six and seven for the former, and so far the latter has not yet been provided. Landman has started with a different set of assumptions and naturally has reached a different conclusion. I believe that for the moment, they will merely have to agree to disagree.
I have only been weighing into this because I am not fond of the "well anything is possible" argument. As I have attempted to point out above, it takes the legs out from underneath everything. We have to assume something; otherwise, I might as well start a thread theorizing that DD is the Dark Lord, and Voldie was only trying to prevent his rise to power.
If I wanted to argue in favor of Lupin is really James, I'd ask "How do we know James wasn't an Metimorphmagus?" That way he wouldn't need a body switching spell.
I personally hope that this theory isn't true. If I were Harry and my dad had been alive for the past 14 years. I doubt that I'd be able to forgive him. He left my mom and me to die at Voldie's hands. He's left me in the care of the Dursleys for 14 years. He let his best friend rot in Azkaban for a crime he didn't commit. He never got in contact with me.
I'm not saying this theory isn't right. I'm just saying I would hope James wouldn't put his son through all that.
3rd Guy
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timrew - Nov 17, 2003 6:07 pm (#210 of 528)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Third guy from the left wrote, "I personally hope that this theory isn't true. If I were Harry and my dad had been alive for the past 14 years. I doubt that I'd be able to forgive him. He left my mom and me to die at Voldie's hands. He's left me in the care of the Dursleys for 14 years. He let his best friend rot in Azkaban for a crime he didn't commit. He never got in contact with me."
This is also why I think this theory is a load of old banana skins and should be consigned to oblivion. You are totally right, Third guy from the left, er, if that's not a contradiction in terms.....
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S.E. Jones - Nov 18, 2003 12:11 am (#211 of 528)
Let it snow!
Third guy from the left: Your assumption is that Hermione (through Hogwarts, A History of) and Snape (and whoever else might have stated it) are actually correct when they made the statement. I defy you to prove that they are. The book could be wrong. Snape could be lying.
While it is possible that Snape could, in fact, be lying, I seriously doubt Hermione was in the numerous times she has quoted that Apparation is impossible inside Hogwarts grounds. In this instance she is speaking as the voice of JKR herself, who has stated before that she often uses Hermione for sources of info. for the characters because we (the readers) will not doubt our source (Hermione, the bookworm). JKR cannot be wrong because this is her world, and she creates this world and all the rules that govern it. It would have been very easy to have said there was no such thing as "Evanesco" after reading the first book because we had not encountered the spell as yet. We do not know what spells do or do not exist in JKR's world until she tells us, but we can guess, predict, and have fun doing it. This thread is here for those who wish to speculate on the possibility and for those who think it unlikely to offer their opinion to the contrary but please remember that we do not know, cannot know, until JKR deems fit to tell us. We cannot say with complete certainty that a Body-Switching spell does or does not exist. Please return to the topic at hand: Could Lupin really be James Potter?
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Third guy from the left - Nov 18, 2003 8:32 am (#212 of 528)
Edited by Denise P. Nov 18, 2003 1:06 pm
Back on topic.
Assumption 1: "James was (or 'is' depending on which side of the fence you sit on) generally a good person despite what was seen during the Snape's Worst Memory chapter of OoTP"
Assumption 2: "James loved Lily and Harry"
Assumption 3: "James and Sirius were best friends"
Observation: "If this theory is true, James abandoned Lily and Harry (not to mention his friend Lupin) to Voldemort"
Analysis: This would be a violation of Assumption 1. However, a case could be made for extenuating circumstances. Maybe James was on some sort of deep undercover mission to do something, and it was necessary for him to appear to still be at home. That might explain why James wasn't with his family when they knew Voldemort was hunting them.
Observation: Harry was left to live with the abusive Dursleys for 13+ years.
Analysis: This would seem to violate Assumption 2. It is possible that in order to maintain Lily's sacrificial magic, Harry had to stay with the Dursleys. It is possible that James didn't know how Harry was being treated. Although that would most likely mean that he never even bothered to check up on Harry.
Observation: Even when Harry was alone with "Lupin", he never told Harry the truth.
Analysis: Vague stretchings of possibilities are forming at the edges of my brain about some super secret something that required James to stay hidden for 13+ years for fear of discovery or something. (No wait, I'm sorry, I must be channeling Wormtail's story)
Assumption 4: James knew who his secret keeper was.
Observation: James let his best friend (see Assumption 3) rot in Azkaban rather than come forward and admit the truth about what had happened.
Analysis: I can't begin to even defend this. The only possibilities I see were that either he didn't care about Sirius (unlikely given Sirius' apparent devotion to Harry) or that James didn't know who the secret keeper was. I consider this one unlikely as well. I, personally, would want to know who was defending my wife and child.
Conclusion: This does not completely disprove this theory. However, if this theory holds true, the James that is being defined is worse than Wormtail and would likely make Snape seem like a caring, loving individual.
I edited this post because I had already asked that the thread be returned to topic. - S.E. Jones
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Landman - Nov 18, 2003 2:01 pm (#213 of 528)
Edited by Denise P. Nov 18, 2003 1:07 pm
Observation: "If this theory is true, James abandoned Lily and Harry (not to mention his friend Lupin) to Voldemort"
Isn't it possible that James, Lily, and Lupin were all in this together, and agreed on a plan? And that they expected to be successful in their plan? And that they never expected to be betrayed and that Voldy would find them?
Observation: Harry was left to live with the abusive Dursleys for 13+ years.
Dumbledore has stated his reasons for this more than once. If he had been raised as a pampered Prince, living with Lupin, he would not be the same Harry we know, and has been speculated many times, he would probably be dead.
Observation: Even when Harry was alone with "Lupin", he never told Harry the truth.
This is the whole point of the theory. The way he acted towards Harry strongly suggests there is something more going on here (this is all discussed in several of the earlier posts.) There is a reason he can't tell Harry the truth -- that reason is what we are waiting to hear.
Observation: James let his best friend (see Assumption 3) rot in Azkaban rather than come forward and admit the truth about what had happened
What if he didn't know the truth? In POA, Lupin(James) is shocked to discover he was wrong about Sirius, and Wormtail was still alive.
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Denise P. - Nov 18, 2003 2:06 pm (#214 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Enough is enough! You can not like this theory to your hearts content but there will be NO more of this sniping at one another over it. If it continues, those members not heeding this post WILL be placed on moderated status.
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Third guy from the left - Nov 18, 2003 2:14 pm (#215 of 528)
What a cute little bunny. Stares and smiles.
Anyway, apologies to all concerned. I got carried away.
I have posted my point of view and am content with it. Landman, I see your side, and can follow from your assumptions to how you reach your conclusions.
I guess this is an "agree to disagree" situation.
3rd Guy
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freshwater - Nov 23, 2003 2:37 pm (#216 of 528)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
Well, I read the entire thread this afternoon and my tiny brain is reeling! It was great fun to read and I appreciate the contributions of so many folks to this enigma of a theory. In the beginning, I thought that James-in-Lupin's-body was the craziest thing I'd ever heard. Now, though not totally convinced it is so, I have to admit that it is an intriguing possibility, and not so very farfetched.
Aside from all of the canon clues as to whether this could or could not have come to pass, it's fun to look ahead and consider how James-in-Lupin's-body might affect the final outcome of the series.....
1) the prophesy never stated (I believe) that Harry had to fight/destroy LV alone, perhaps his father is meant to assist him in the final conflict in some way;
2) after all that Harry has lost and suffered in his young life, it would be satisfying to see him regain a father/son relationship...even if he is angry at first, working together against LV might have a unifying/bonding effect on their relationship;
3) many posts elsewhere on the lexicon have suggested that Harry will survive his final encounter with LV and will return to Hogwarts as DADA instructor...at the age of 17 or 18? Naaaah! But, if James-in-Lupin's-body were to assist in the final defeat of LV, HE could return to Hogwarts as the DADA teacher...even in a werewolf's body, he would have proved his power, trustworthiness and usefulness to the wizarding world. So he has to take a couple of days off every month...this is still the guy I'd want to teach my son DADA. I like Lupin(possibly James-in-Lupin's-body) and want a happy ending for him.
4) This scenario (#3 above) would fill the DADA position and leave Harry free to begin auror training and then work as an auror for the MoM, under Arthur Weasley as Minister of Magic.
Just one comment on the possibility of Lupin and James switching bodies way back then...I have to believe DD was aware of the entire switch, and think that perhaps Snape somehow learned of it, too. If James-in-Lupin's-body had to stay in hiding for 13-15 years so as to be available for some later showdown with LV (I suspect that there is a little glass ball (prophecy) with James Potter's name on it on one of those dusty shelves), and Snape has successfully kept that secret all this time, that would account for DD's trust in Snape as a reformed DE. This idea of Snape knowing James is in Lupin's body came from my second reading of PoA, where Snape sees the marauder's map on Lupin's desk showing Lupin (but it would have to read "J. Potter", wouldn't it?) running through the passage from the whomping willow. From that point on--if not before--Snape would have known that the guy who appears to be Lupin is really James Potter.
I'm sure I've rambled here...possibly off on some other track, but that's how one thought led to another for me.
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VeronikaG - Nov 26, 2003 7:57 am (#217 of 528)
Since I have opinions on everything, I just have to say something here!
I'm one of those who would hate to see this theory being revealed as true. I really like Lupin, he's my favourite grown up in the books, and I hope he's "real", not James pretending to be him.
Most of the Lupin fans (at least I believe so) would probably like for him to just be Remus Lupin. We know that JKR also likes him, and I somehow think she wouldn't make such a twist. In these books the good people are true characters. Those who pretend to be someone they are not, Pettigrew and Crouch Jr. to mention a couple, are bad. I don't think JKR would like Lupin so much if he wasn't a true character.
If Lupin really is James, then why didn't he tell Sirius? They lived together for a few months, so he would have had the opportunity. And even if Sirius and Lupin were close, Sirius and James were closer. I think Sirius would be more happy to discover that James was still alive, than he would be sad to discover that Lupin was really dead. As bad as it seems. James could probably have convinced him by telling him something only he, James, would know.
Besides, I agree with those who say that this plot twist would be a major thing to explain. There are so many other questions to be answered in the next two book, I don't really see room for it.
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freshwater - Nov 26, 2003 5:36 pm (#218 of 528)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
Veronika, you make a good point about "true characters" vs those who are pretending to be someone else (Pettigrew and Crouch). But, if Lupin is really James Potter, maybe he did tell Sirius while they were together in #12 Grimmauld Place, but did not deem it the proper time to share with Harry. Just guessing...
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Hermionefan(#1) - Dec 1, 2003 6:27 pm (#219 of 528)
missing my picture!!!!! *cry cry cry*
I don't know if anyone said this before, but if James was Lupin, wouldn't James be on the Marauders Map and not Lupin? If someone said this, sorry!
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Susurro Notities - Dec 1, 2003 6:32 pm (#220 of 528)
Interesting thought Hermionefan(#1). Is it the body or the essence of the person that is shown on the map? Is Wormtail on the map when he is a rat? If so then it would seem that it is the essence of the person not their physical form that is shown.
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freshwater - Dec 1, 2003 7:20 pm (#221 of 528)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
I believe the map shows one's essence...as when it showed B. Crouch to be in Snape's office (GoF) when it was really Barty Crouch Jr. masquerading as MEM. (Although, the map apparently cannot distinguish a Jr. from a Sr.!) That's why I thought the map must have shown "J. Potter" when Snape saw it on Lupin's desk (PoA)....that is it would have shown that IF Lupin is really James Potter in Remus Lupin's body.
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Susurro Notities - Dec 1, 2003 7:42 pm (#222 of 528)
Thank you freshwater. I hadn't thought about MEM/Barty Crouch Jr. So it would seem that Lupin cannot be James. Gee that was simple compared to the rest of the discussion on this thread.
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S.E. Jones - Dec 1, 2003 7:46 pm (#223 of 528)
Let it snow!
The map also showed "P. Pettigrew" and "S. Black" with the Trio the night they all ended up in the Shrieking Shack in PoA, thus the reason Lupin ran down to meet them so quickly.... Of course I think the reason Harry never saw that Scabbers was listed as Pettigrew was because he never had any reason to look for him on the map (the map only seems to show you the people on the path you're looking for or the people you're looking for)....
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Joost! - Dec 2, 2003 2:10 am (#224 of 528)
Second line of information
Without getting into another discussion about how the Marauder's Map works exactly, I think it would show J. Potter if this theory is true. But I don't think this proves anything...
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Bluenote1313 - Dec 4, 2003 12:51 pm (#225 of 528)
As one who has defended this theory for a while based on the evidence I wanted to go back to issues raised earlier. Just because we haven't heard of a spell to switch bodies doesn't mean there isn't one. I have always thought that there are different levels of switching spells based on your ability. McGonagall tells Neville not to tell any one he cannot perform a 'simple' switching spell. I always read that as Neville's ability being basic not the spell. Maybe better withces and wizards can perfrom advanced switching spells after years of practice.
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freshwater - Dec 4, 2003 6:18 pm (#226 of 528)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
My post of Dec. 1 was not meant to refute the "Lupin is really James Potter" theory....it could just as well support it. IF James switched into Lupin's body (to do some mission or to hide out for a later confrontation with LV), I believe that DD would definately have known about it, and that Snape may have known about it. In fact, Snape's keeping this secret (that James Potter was not killed but has been in hiding in Lupin's body) could be the proof DD has that Snape is trustworthy. So...if Snape saw "J. Potter" on the map on Lupin's desk, he would have already known his true identity, and would still have run to the Shrieking Shack to confront Sirius Black and James.
I know, I know...that's a lot of "if's" and probably a bit farfetched. But then, isn't that the whole idea of a plot twist?
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Hem Hem - Dec 17, 2003 6:39 pm (#227 of 528)
Credit goes to Gina for thinking this up, but I found it really interesting, and (what can I say?) decided to reference her idea over here. Even though I don't exactly support the Lupin=James theory myself, those who do will find this pretty interesting.
What does the J stand for in the "Professor Remus J. Lupin" found on his suitcase? Could it possibly be James?
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Denise P. - Dec 17, 2003 6:41 pm (#228 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
It could be James but it would have no bearing on the theory at all. Lupin's parents would have named him that ages before he ever met James. Of course, if it turned out it WAS James, that could be a clue from JKR. Sometimes an initial is just that. Harry S Truman didn't have a middle name, just the S.
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Hem Hem - Dec 17, 2003 6:42 pm (#229 of 528)
He could have given himself the initial, maybe.
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Mad Madame Mim - Jan 9, 2004 11:21 pm (#230 of 528)
"Don't tell me you've never heard of the marvellous Madame Mim?"
Hold on to your seats!
We have heard of a magic that allows one change into another's appearance; three times in fact. First in CS when the trio use the polyjuice potion, twice in GoF. Crouch jr. uses it to be Moody and daddy Crouch makes a brew for junior and dying mommy dear to switch in Azkaban (see GoF page 684). Also note that Daddy Crouch made enough for Mommy dear to keep her son's apperance until she died. She was buried under junior's name and apperance. Yes, she died with his apperance....
However, we have nothing citing that Lupin drinks something every hour like Crouch jr. did as Moody. And where has James/Lupin been getting hair samples for the past 15 years? Unless you can use the hair of the person you've changed into while you are that person. Crouch junior said he had to keep Moody alive to learn his patterns and habbits. He did not say that he needed Moody alive for the potion to work.
However, GoF describes that Moody's hair had been unevenly cut. This might imply that you need the original specimen for the potion to work. Or Crouch jr. could have used Moody's hair just because...
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Denise P. - Jan 10, 2004 10:30 am (#231 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
You have me confused with your logic? If you read the theory, you would see it is based on a Switching Spell, which as far as anyone knows, doesn't require the user to have anything of the recipiant.
Your post is about Polyjuice Potion, which is not used in the case of the James is Lupin theory.
If the theory is correct, the essence that is James was transfered to Lupin's body....it was not James assuming the shape/form/mannerisms of Lupin.
I like the theory but I doubt it will ever be proven or disproven.
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VeronikaG - Jan 11, 2004 7:29 am (#232 of 528)
I personally will assume that if it's not revealed as true in the next two books, it's not. It's just something someone thought up on a discussion board. I know many of you really like this theory, but I don't. I want Lupin to really be Lupin.
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Bluenote1313 - Jan 15, 2004 2:59 pm (#233 of 528)
Before all of you jump to conclusions...this is not a theory thought up on a discussion board. This theory was put forth first by the author of the unofficial Harry Potter Guide book. In that book there are numerous citings of 'unusual' behavior by Lupin specifically towards Harry. For example, Lupin's reaction when he sees that Harry's Patronus is a stag, the smae creature James Transfigured in to. JKR describes Lupin as "shaken" after seeing the Patronus. If we have learned nothing from the board, we know that JKR does not choose her words without meanings....so 'shaken' means something...what exactly we still have about 1600 pages to find out in.
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timrew - Jan 15, 2004 4:57 pm (#234 of 528)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Lupin would also be 'shaken' to see that Harry's Patronus was a stag. He doesn't have to be James to be surprised by this.
He sees his old friend's animagus produced by Harry (his son) as a Patronus. Of course he's going to be shaken!
Tha author of the unofficial Harry Potter Guide book probably knows as much about what's to come as we do!
Let's leave it to JKR to surprise us in book six or seven. Personally, I think this theory is a load of old banana skins.
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Weeny Owl - Jan 15, 2004 5:42 pm (#235 of 528)
I agree with you, tim.
As has been said before, it would be so very cruel for James to have been around all these years and not try to be part of Harry's life.
Even if he had to stay away prior to the third year at Hogwarts, James/Lupin would have plenty of reasons to stay in contact with Harry after that, especially since he told Harry a few things about the Marauders.
After all that Harry has gone through with his parents dying, his upbringing at the hands of the Dursleys, all the attempts to kill him, and his anguish over Sirius dying, I would hope JKR wouldn't do something so sadistic as to make this theory part of her books.
I would think it would be devastating for Harry to find out that he had a father all along who didn't care enough to send him a Christmas card. Granted, Lupin has little money, but he could still send a note or a card or something.
I think it would be much more in keeping with JKR's plots if Harry and Lupin become closer now that James and Sirius are gone.
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Czarina - Jan 16, 2004 8:05 am (#236 of 528)
It just wouldn't be right for Lupin to really be James Potter. The whole series is based around Harry losing his parents. His mother DIED for him. His father also died for him. Harry feels the need to avenge his parents' deaths.
That isn't to say that his parents still aren't in his life: Lily protects him through the "ancient magic" protection spell; James personifies his Patronus to protect him. They are there in spiritual form, not physical.
(Feel free to move this onto the Harry thread if this doesn't quite fit.)
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Madam Poppy - Jan 16, 2004 10:31 am (#237 of 528)
Kirsten Valleskey
I was a "believer" of The Theory till Book 5 came out. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember Lupin showing any "odd" reactions to Harry in this book.
My personal theory is that JKR had switched James with Lupin until she found out that someone had caught on. When it was published in a book and posted all over the internet, James was left dead to her readers. My only hope is that she may "come clean" and admit the James/Lupin Switching Spell some day.
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VeronikaG - Jan 16, 2004 11:26 am (#238 of 528)
Is it possible that Harry's patronus, the stag, really IS Prongs, James in his animagus shape? Maybe James' spirit is called for every time Harry casts his patronus. Maybe Lupin felt James' spiritual presence, but didn't quite know what he was experiencing. That could left him shaken.
And now you'll probably argue why Harry doesn't feel his presence. Well, it could be hidden underneath Harry's fear of dementors, and the relief of seeing his patronus appear. OK, not the best explanation.
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mollis - Jan 16, 2004 12:40 pm (#239 of 528)
I follow this thread because it is very entertaining to witness the discussion, but I'm with Tim. Banana skins all the way!
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Devika - Jan 17, 2004 2:37 am (#240 of 528)
I second Tim and Mollis!
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Gryffindor Ghost - Jan 17, 2004 6:58 am (#241 of 528)
I thought that this thread was already closed. Ok, so here is my opinion about the topic: Is Lupin really James?
Professor Remus J. Lupin a.k.a. Moony cannot be James Potter a.k.a. Prongs because James Potter was already dead! It was said so by the author herself, and was confirmed by most characters (well, at least the older ones): Mr. and Mrs. Dursley, Profs. Dumbledore and McGonagall, Hagrid, Prof. Lupin, Mrs. Weasley, Sirius, and even Voldemort.
How did Dumbledore and Hagrid get James' Invisibility Cloak and the key to their (the Potters') Gringotts vault? Simple. James, upon knowing that Voldemort was after them, gave the cloak and the key to Dumbledore, assuming that their lives were in danger. But when he was reassured of their safety(??) with the Fidelius Charm, he wasn't able to recover them because Voldemort had caught up with them and (sniff!) killed them.
As to why Lupin never really paid attention to Harry's scar, etc., well, Lupin was a very thoughtful person and perhaps he thought that comments or references to Harry's scar were likely to cause painful recollections of his tragic past. (Although Harry was quite immune to it.) Or he himself finds it painful because one of his best friends (James) died, and that his other best friend (Sirius) had betrayed the other (James). Then, he might have been afraid to mention anything about Harry's parents because mentioning them might lead to the topic of Sirius Black, which, during the third book where Lupin was featured, was avoided because Harry might discover something and do something really stupid and dangerous (like looking for Black).
Then, with that "positively fled" thing, Lupin was definitely afraid of crystal balls, isn't he? (They look like the moon to him.)
Then all those examples where Harry talks about his parents, and that he hears them whenever he gets too near a dementor, Lupin was looking "paler than usual" because he was afraid that the conversation might lead to Sirius Black. He also spoke in a "strange voice" because the memory of his friend's death is quite painful to him (and to all of us, for that matter). The strange voice might have been a pun, like that "gleam of triumph" in Dumbledore's eyes in GoF. (or they meant other things. But unless all the books were released, we can only guess, can't we?) It could have meant that his voice broke because of emotion. As to that scene after Harry's match with Ravenclaw, Lupin was "both shaken and pleased" because it was as if he was seeing James again, what with Harry's appearance and his stag Patronus. As to his "shiver" when he said "I certainly don't want Harry dead," well, Harry meant to him more than a student or a friend because he was James' only son, and james was Lupin's best friend! Plus the fact that Harry is a living replica of James (except for the eyes). I think all of us will shiver at the mere thought that we wanted someone as important to us as Harry was to Lupin.
Lupin said "we could all transform" because all of them can indeed transform. Lupin transforms into a werewolf, James into a stag, Sirius into a large dog, and Peter into a rat. Although Lupin cannot transform at will like the others, it's still called transformation, isn't it? So Lupin's use of we is correct and is not revealing anything because its just as normal for him to say that as saying we eat, drink, or sleep.
Lupin was so sure of what James would say because he had known James for a long time and knows the way James' mind works. I most of us will agree with this.
Lupin's first name of Remus is taken from one of the legendary twins, Romulus and Remus, who were believed to have been nursed by a wolf because they were orphans. This usage is in connection with Lupins identity of being a werewolf. (Okay, maybe his parents didn't know that he will be a werewolf, but since Ms. Rowling's the one who chooses names for her characters, they have no choice, do they?"
Now, this theory is quite plausible, or even possible. No one but Ms. Rowling knows. But all I have written here are my opinion and everybody has the right to criticize my post, and to contrdict it. I'd be happy to know what your ideas are about my post. As I haven't read most of the posts after my last, I haven't got any idea of those posts, but once I have read them, I will modify this post to suit the thread's progress.
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Czarina - Jan 17, 2004 7:49 am (#242 of 528)
Gryffindor Ghost, you summed up my thoughts on the matter exactly. Bravo!
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Devika - Jan 17, 2004 10:09 am (#243 of 528)
Thanks Gryffindor Ghost!
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Gryffindor Ghost - Jan 17, 2004 8:50 pm (#244 of 528)
Thanks for supporting my opinion, Czarina and Devika.
I just want another thought added: Lupin cannot be James Potter because in OotP, where everybody (well, everybody who's in close contact with the Order, anyway) already knows that Sirius didn't betray Lily and James Potter, Lupin seemed really close to Harry than he was back in PoA. That just means that Lupin isn't anxious anymore about what Harry might know that he shouldn't (except of course about the prophecy, which everybody from Dumbledore to Sirius was careful not to mention to Harry because he was still too young to know).
Then there's the scene where Harry breaks into Umbridge's office to use her fire in order to talk to Sirius, where Harry talks to Sirius and Lupin about what he had witnessed in the Pensieve (with Snape's thoughts), Sirius and Lupin beamed reminiscently upon hearing Harry's story. Lupin also asked if James was playing with the Snitch. Then he told Harry the real score about James and Lily's relationship in an outsider's point of view.
Well, if Lupin really was James, he wouldn't have done or said those things so convincingly, even though he tries really hard not to reveal himself, would he? I mean, even when you are in disguise, it's always likely that you will still act as yourself and let something slip (well, except if you are a well-trained imposter, like Barty Crouch, Jr., which I think Lupin most certainly isn't).
Another one: If Lupin was indeed James, he would have told Sirius about it, or, in the light (or dark) of Sirius' death, he would have revealed himself to console Harry, to show him that he's still got someone, wouldn't he? Not unless he has some big reason not to do so. Or unless Ms. Rowling isn't going to reveal him until the sixth or seventh book. Who knows? I've said before that this theory is plausible (quoting Dumbledore), "possible, I'd say probable". This is just my opinion. I do not mean to contradict or to critize the person who started this thread, but this is what I think of the topic. Well, to each his own, right? Let me know what you think, folks. Bye bye for now. Quite busy.
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Landman - Jan 19, 2004 1:27 pm (#245 of 528)
Not unless he has some big reason not to do so.
Whenever someone disagrees with this theory, there is usually something like your sentence above included in the post. This is really the whole point of the theory -- first, it's possible, and second we have not been told everything and everyone's decisions. We won't know until the end of book 7.
Having said that, I don't believe that OotP advanced the case of this theory very much. I think Madam Poppy may be right on that JKR changed her mind about this and decided to stop dropping any hints or references in the latest book.
Since I started this thread, maybe I can end it -- I think everything that could be said about this has been. I appreciate everyone's input -- thanks.
The End??
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Madam Poppy - Jan 20, 2004 1:51 pm (#246 of 528)
Kirsten Valleskey
THE END!
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Denise P. - Jan 20, 2004 9:03 pm (#247 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
While I think that JKR will never confirm or deny this theory, I have always liked it. Ever since I first read the theory and brought it up on this board, it has brought heated debated from those who oppose it.
I poo-poo'd it when I first read it but after reading the entire theory, in the Clues book as well as the supporting evidence listed, I was more willing to concede that while unlikely, it was a remote possibility. Since then, I have always thought it was possible.
If someone had posted, back in the days before CoS and PoA were published, that Scabbers was really a wizard hiding and not a rat, I think it would have had a similar reception among fans.
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Bluenote1313 - Jan 21, 2004 12:04 pm (#248 of 528)
Exactly NoVeil. Scabbers as a person? Please! But look what happened...it began an integral part of the story line and no one is complaining now.
Now...do I think the theory is true? After book 5 its a lot less likely but still POSSIBLE. These theories are all about possibilities not truth since there is only one person who knows the truth. And she ain't talkin' yet.
Dismissing the theory because it was cruel or because that makes James a bad father? Hardly. Look at the facts. If Harry found out his father was alive do you think he would go back to the Dursley's where he is completely safe? Do you think James (as Lupin) could continue to be a non-threat? Once the secret is out, it is out all the way.
As far as why Lupin wasn't in the story more in Book 5....the point of the Sirius/Harry relationship was to set up the ending and the emotions involved in that. If we had spent a whole 700 pages developing the Lupin/Harry relationship and then Sirius died...who would have cared? Just becasue it wasn't a focus point for book 5 doesn't mean it is any less possible.
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Aimeé - Jan 30, 2004 10:16 pm (#249 of 528)
I like this theory, I don't think it should come to an end. It has good bases, I mean, it is possible because there are a lot of questions on Lupin's reaction towards Harry and as I said, it's a great theory and it has good bases as well, so, come on!, don't end it, it's always fun to guess and it's best if there are things we should give a thought (this is the case).
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Luanee - Feb 2, 2004 11:00 pm (#250 of 528)
Well if it is really Jame's soul trapped inside Lupin's body, then is it still capable of transforming to a werewolf during full moon? Somehow I think this theory is not possible, too far-fetched, but it's interesting.
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and her killer bunny rabbit
That's a good point, Landman. Up to now, we've only really heard of one person casting one spell (if the individual spells are cast simultaniously, the power is combined as in the case of Charlie and Co. vs the dragon). IF there is a body-switching spell (and I'm not sure there is) it may be a two or even three person spell where all participants need to play a part in the incantation in order for it to work right.
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zelmia - Nov 15, 2003 7:56 pm (#202 of 528)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Landman (and others), in fact not any thing is possible in this particular magical universe. For example: people still need to wear glasses to correct their vision, since there is apparently no spell or potion for this type of medical malady. Ditto certain types of scars, which cannot be eliminated. There is no spell for locating or summoning a lost individual (Bertha Jorkins), nor apparently can one Apparate with a baby in her arms.
Rowling has given very specific parameters for what is and is not possible in the world she has created. May I politely suggest taking the opposite tack and assuming that, unless the author specifically mentions something (i.e. Body Swapping Spell/Charm), it does not exist.
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Carina - Nov 15, 2003 9:19 pm (#203 of 528)
and her killer bunny rabbit
Zelmia, I think you and Landman are saying the same thing from opposite sides. The only rules we have for this world are the ones Rowling has decided on, whether or not she's shared them with us yet. There may or may not be a Body-Switching spell. Rowling hasn't told us one way or another if it's possible, so we don't know.
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Landman - Nov 16, 2003 10:16 am (#204 of 528)
Zelmia - read your last post. You use the word "apparently" because I guess even you are not really sure. And I said any thing is possible unless we have been told it can't be done.
We can assume certain things if we want (i.e., wearing glasses) but we can't make definitive statements about them -- and then use these statements to draw further conclusions.
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Third guy from the left - Nov 17, 2003 8:48 am (#205 of 528)
I'm sorry Landman, but I must disagree.
Making assumptions based on what we see in canon is exactly what this forum is about. I see something. I make assumptions based upon it and I draw a conclusion. I then post my conclusion to see what other people make of it because other poeple usually see things that I missed. They post replies based on their assumptions. That's what makes this fun.
Who is right? Who is wrong? If we are lucky, that question might be answered in the remaining books. In the case of this thread, I suspect that it will be answered. In the case of some of the other threads, it might not be.
If we can't make assumptions and draw conclusions from them, then we can't trust Harry's assumptions either. And to be perfectly honest, all that we have so far out of 5 books is Harry's assumptions, what Harry sees and what Harry's been told. If what start questions assumptions to the degree you are talking about, anything is possible. We have no basis on which to have discussions. For all we know, Harry could be a human power source with his mind plugged into a giant computer simulation.
To quote a play I was recently involved in:
Guildenstern: "We only know what we are told, and that's little enough. And for all we know it isn't even true."
Player: "For all anyone knows, nothing is. Everything has to be taken on trust; truth is only that which is taken to be true. It's the currency of living. There may be nothing behind it, but it doesn't make any difference so long as it is honoured. One acts on assumptions. What do you assume?"
Guildenstern and the Player from "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead"
3rd Guy (horribly off topic)
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zelmia - Nov 17, 2003 11:30 am (#206 of 528)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Bravo, Third Guy!
And just to clarify, (and then I am going back to dropping out of this discussion) I used the word "apparently" because it is apparent (evident, clear, obvious, plain... choose your own synonym) from what is written in the text alone. I am drawing a conclusion from what is actually written there. Choosing to focus on "the color" of my choice of words, rather than "the content of their character", make it seem to me that there is no real rebuttal to the points I have made.
Landman: We can assume certain things if we want (i.e., wearing glasses) but we can't make definitive statements about them -- and then use these statements to draw further conclusions.
On the contrary: I think that if we are going to draw any conclusion about what is not given in the text, we need to be using information that is given in the text, not creating our own version of the story to suit our personal desires about its outcome. And in my opinion, what is given in the text of this story does not logically lead to the conclusion that a spell exists which can be performed to allow characters to change bodies.
Thank you for your kind attention...
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Mare - Nov 17, 2003 12:32 pm (#207 of 528)
This is interesting indeed! To draw conclusions. The funny thing is you can't draw conclusions.
Simple example: Suppose you want to say: "All swans are black or white"
A lot of people would say that that is a definte thing, a conclusion. but it is not, because you can never be sure that there isn't a blue one swimming around somewhere. The only way to be absolutely, definitely sure, is to find that blue one.
And then, by doing so, the only thing you did was disprove your theory.
So to say, that there is no such thing as a spell to switch bodies, can not be proved untill that spell is discovered somewhere in the books. And by doing so the theory would be disproved....
but there is hope! since this is a world, created by a person who makes the rules of the world clear to us through her writing, there is the possibility (I think it is a small one) that Hermione blurts out somewhere that there exists no such thing as that spell.
Off course that doesn't say that there can never be one, but that is not really important for this discussion
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Landman - Nov 17, 2003 1:47 pm (#208 of 528)
I'm sorry you misunderstood me Third Guy and Zelmia. I'm not saying you can't make assumptions and have fun discussing them. What I'm saying is you can't make assumptions and state that they are absolutely true (i.e., canon.)
There is not any such thing as a "Body-Switching Spell".
You are stating the above as fact. But you can’t prove a negative. You can’t say something is impossible unless we are told that in the books. For instance, we have been told it is impossible to Disapparate within Hogwarts. This is a fact.
We see Harry and Dumbledore wearing glasses, so we assume that eyesight can't be improved to the point where glasses are unnecessary. This seems like a valid assumption. But show me in any of the books where it says that it is not possible to improve one's eyesight with magic. Without this reference, you can’t say factually that it is impossible.
We know for a fact there is a spell called ACCIO that allows you to call objects to you and we've seen it work many times. BUT what we don't know about it is it's limits. Can Draco Accio Lucius from inside Azkaban? We can make all sorts of interesting assumptions about the nature of accio, and security devices at Azkaban, and whether you can accio a person, but we don't know for sure, because JKR hasn’t told us.
In summary, all I’m saying is that you can certainly make assumptions and statements and try to support them, I just don’t think that they should be presented as hard evidence. You can’t throw away the theory about Lupin and James until such time as JKR states the means to accomplish this is impossible.
P.S. You left off the meaning for apparently that I was referencing --- Appearing as such but not necessarily so; seeming: an apparent advantage.
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Third guy from the left - Nov 17, 2003 2:25 pm (#209 of 528)
If this is going to become a philosophical discussion, then I would like to point out that by your reasoning, while it is stated in canon that you cannot apparate or disapparate within Hogwarts. It cannot be proven. You are making an assumption. Your assumption is that Hermione (through Hogwarts, A History of) and Snape (and whoever else might have stated it) are actually correct when they made the statement. I defy you to prove that they are. The book could be wrong. Snape could be lying. To quote Landman "You can't prove a negative". This is a negative.
Zelmia has made observations, made assumptions from those observations, and has made conclusions based on those observations. (By the way, Mare, you can make conclusions based on assumptions. Those conclusions might not turn out to be correct, but you can make them). Zelmia has drawn conclusions and will likely keep them barring canon or thorough debate. We have to wait until book six and seven for the former, and so far the latter has not yet been provided. Landman has started with a different set of assumptions and naturally has reached a different conclusion. I believe that for the moment, they will merely have to agree to disagree.
I have only been weighing into this because I am not fond of the "well anything is possible" argument. As I have attempted to point out above, it takes the legs out from underneath everything. We have to assume something; otherwise, I might as well start a thread theorizing that DD is the Dark Lord, and Voldie was only trying to prevent his rise to power.
If I wanted to argue in favor of Lupin is really James, I'd ask "How do we know James wasn't an Metimorphmagus?" That way he wouldn't need a body switching spell.
I personally hope that this theory isn't true. If I were Harry and my dad had been alive for the past 14 years. I doubt that I'd be able to forgive him. He left my mom and me to die at Voldie's hands. He's left me in the care of the Dursleys for 14 years. He let his best friend rot in Azkaban for a crime he didn't commit. He never got in contact with me.
I'm not saying this theory isn't right. I'm just saying I would hope James wouldn't put his son through all that.
3rd Guy
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timrew - Nov 17, 2003 6:07 pm (#210 of 528)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Third guy from the left wrote, "I personally hope that this theory isn't true. If I were Harry and my dad had been alive for the past 14 years. I doubt that I'd be able to forgive him. He left my mom and me to die at Voldie's hands. He's left me in the care of the Dursleys for 14 years. He let his best friend rot in Azkaban for a crime he didn't commit. He never got in contact with me."
This is also why I think this theory is a load of old banana skins and should be consigned to oblivion. You are totally right, Third guy from the left, er, if that's not a contradiction in terms.....
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S.E. Jones - Nov 18, 2003 12:11 am (#211 of 528)
Let it snow!
Third guy from the left: Your assumption is that Hermione (through Hogwarts, A History of) and Snape (and whoever else might have stated it) are actually correct when they made the statement. I defy you to prove that they are. The book could be wrong. Snape could be lying.
While it is possible that Snape could, in fact, be lying, I seriously doubt Hermione was in the numerous times she has quoted that Apparation is impossible inside Hogwarts grounds. In this instance she is speaking as the voice of JKR herself, who has stated before that she often uses Hermione for sources of info. for the characters because we (the readers) will not doubt our source (Hermione, the bookworm). JKR cannot be wrong because this is her world, and she creates this world and all the rules that govern it. It would have been very easy to have said there was no such thing as "Evanesco" after reading the first book because we had not encountered the spell as yet. We do not know what spells do or do not exist in JKR's world until she tells us, but we can guess, predict, and have fun doing it. This thread is here for those who wish to speculate on the possibility and for those who think it unlikely to offer their opinion to the contrary but please remember that we do not know, cannot know, until JKR deems fit to tell us. We cannot say with complete certainty that a Body-Switching spell does or does not exist. Please return to the topic at hand: Could Lupin really be James Potter?
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Third guy from the left - Nov 18, 2003 8:32 am (#212 of 528)
Edited by Denise P. Nov 18, 2003 1:06 pm
Back on topic.
Assumption 1: "James was (or 'is' depending on which side of the fence you sit on) generally a good person despite what was seen during the Snape's Worst Memory chapter of OoTP"
Assumption 2: "James loved Lily and Harry"
Assumption 3: "James and Sirius were best friends"
Observation: "If this theory is true, James abandoned Lily and Harry (not to mention his friend Lupin) to Voldemort"
Analysis: This would be a violation of Assumption 1. However, a case could be made for extenuating circumstances. Maybe James was on some sort of deep undercover mission to do something, and it was necessary for him to appear to still be at home. That might explain why James wasn't with his family when they knew Voldemort was hunting them.
Observation: Harry was left to live with the abusive Dursleys for 13+ years.
Analysis: This would seem to violate Assumption 2. It is possible that in order to maintain Lily's sacrificial magic, Harry had to stay with the Dursleys. It is possible that James didn't know how Harry was being treated. Although that would most likely mean that he never even bothered to check up on Harry.
Observation: Even when Harry was alone with "Lupin", he never told Harry the truth.
Analysis: Vague stretchings of possibilities are forming at the edges of my brain about some super secret something that required James to stay hidden for 13+ years for fear of discovery or something. (No wait, I'm sorry, I must be channeling Wormtail's story)
Assumption 4: James knew who his secret keeper was.
Observation: James let his best friend (see Assumption 3) rot in Azkaban rather than come forward and admit the truth about what had happened.
Analysis: I can't begin to even defend this. The only possibilities I see were that either he didn't care about Sirius (unlikely given Sirius' apparent devotion to Harry) or that James didn't know who the secret keeper was. I consider this one unlikely as well. I, personally, would want to know who was defending my wife and child.
Conclusion: This does not completely disprove this theory. However, if this theory holds true, the James that is being defined is worse than Wormtail and would likely make Snape seem like a caring, loving individual.
I edited this post because I had already asked that the thread be returned to topic. - S.E. Jones
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Landman - Nov 18, 2003 2:01 pm (#213 of 528)
Edited by Denise P. Nov 18, 2003 1:07 pm
Observation: "If this theory is true, James abandoned Lily and Harry (not to mention his friend Lupin) to Voldemort"
Isn't it possible that James, Lily, and Lupin were all in this together, and agreed on a plan? And that they expected to be successful in their plan? And that they never expected to be betrayed and that Voldy would find them?
Observation: Harry was left to live with the abusive Dursleys for 13+ years.
Dumbledore has stated his reasons for this more than once. If he had been raised as a pampered Prince, living with Lupin, he would not be the same Harry we know, and has been speculated many times, he would probably be dead.
Observation: Even when Harry was alone with "Lupin", he never told Harry the truth.
This is the whole point of the theory. The way he acted towards Harry strongly suggests there is something more going on here (this is all discussed in several of the earlier posts.) There is a reason he can't tell Harry the truth -- that reason is what we are waiting to hear.
Observation: James let his best friend (see Assumption 3) rot in Azkaban rather than come forward and admit the truth about what had happened
What if he didn't know the truth? In POA, Lupin(James) is shocked to discover he was wrong about Sirius, and Wormtail was still alive.
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Denise P. - Nov 18, 2003 2:06 pm (#214 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Enough is enough! You can not like this theory to your hearts content but there will be NO more of this sniping at one another over it. If it continues, those members not heeding this post WILL be placed on moderated status.
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Third guy from the left - Nov 18, 2003 2:14 pm (#215 of 528)
What a cute little bunny. Stares and smiles.
Anyway, apologies to all concerned. I got carried away.
I have posted my point of view and am content with it. Landman, I see your side, and can follow from your assumptions to how you reach your conclusions.
I guess this is an "agree to disagree" situation.
3rd Guy
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freshwater - Nov 23, 2003 2:37 pm (#216 of 528)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
Well, I read the entire thread this afternoon and my tiny brain is reeling! It was great fun to read and I appreciate the contributions of so many folks to this enigma of a theory. In the beginning, I thought that James-in-Lupin's-body was the craziest thing I'd ever heard. Now, though not totally convinced it is so, I have to admit that it is an intriguing possibility, and not so very farfetched.
Aside from all of the canon clues as to whether this could or could not have come to pass, it's fun to look ahead and consider how James-in-Lupin's-body might affect the final outcome of the series.....
1) the prophesy never stated (I believe) that Harry had to fight/destroy LV alone, perhaps his father is meant to assist him in the final conflict in some way;
2) after all that Harry has lost and suffered in his young life, it would be satisfying to see him regain a father/son relationship...even if he is angry at first, working together against LV might have a unifying/bonding effect on their relationship;
3) many posts elsewhere on the lexicon have suggested that Harry will survive his final encounter with LV and will return to Hogwarts as DADA instructor...at the age of 17 or 18? Naaaah! But, if James-in-Lupin's-body were to assist in the final defeat of LV, HE could return to Hogwarts as the DADA teacher...even in a werewolf's body, he would have proved his power, trustworthiness and usefulness to the wizarding world. So he has to take a couple of days off every month...this is still the guy I'd want to teach my son DADA. I like Lupin(possibly James-in-Lupin's-body) and want a happy ending for him.
4) This scenario (#3 above) would fill the DADA position and leave Harry free to begin auror training and then work as an auror for the MoM, under Arthur Weasley as Minister of Magic.
Just one comment on the possibility of Lupin and James switching bodies way back then...I have to believe DD was aware of the entire switch, and think that perhaps Snape somehow learned of it, too. If James-in-Lupin's-body had to stay in hiding for 13-15 years so as to be available for some later showdown with LV (I suspect that there is a little glass ball (prophecy) with James Potter's name on it on one of those dusty shelves), and Snape has successfully kept that secret all this time, that would account for DD's trust in Snape as a reformed DE. This idea of Snape knowing James is in Lupin's body came from my second reading of PoA, where Snape sees the marauder's map on Lupin's desk showing Lupin (but it would have to read "J. Potter", wouldn't it?) running through the passage from the whomping willow. From that point on--if not before--Snape would have known that the guy who appears to be Lupin is really James Potter.
I'm sure I've rambled here...possibly off on some other track, but that's how one thought led to another for me.
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VeronikaG - Nov 26, 2003 7:57 am (#217 of 528)
Since I have opinions on everything, I just have to say something here!
I'm one of those who would hate to see this theory being revealed as true. I really like Lupin, he's my favourite grown up in the books, and I hope he's "real", not James pretending to be him.
Most of the Lupin fans (at least I believe so) would probably like for him to just be Remus Lupin. We know that JKR also likes him, and I somehow think she wouldn't make such a twist. In these books the good people are true characters. Those who pretend to be someone they are not, Pettigrew and Crouch Jr. to mention a couple, are bad. I don't think JKR would like Lupin so much if he wasn't a true character.
If Lupin really is James, then why didn't he tell Sirius? They lived together for a few months, so he would have had the opportunity. And even if Sirius and Lupin were close, Sirius and James were closer. I think Sirius would be more happy to discover that James was still alive, than he would be sad to discover that Lupin was really dead. As bad as it seems. James could probably have convinced him by telling him something only he, James, would know.
Besides, I agree with those who say that this plot twist would be a major thing to explain. There are so many other questions to be answered in the next two book, I don't really see room for it.
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freshwater - Nov 26, 2003 5:36 pm (#218 of 528)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
Veronika, you make a good point about "true characters" vs those who are pretending to be someone else (Pettigrew and Crouch). But, if Lupin is really James Potter, maybe he did tell Sirius while they were together in #12 Grimmauld Place, but did not deem it the proper time to share with Harry. Just guessing...
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Hermionefan(#1) - Dec 1, 2003 6:27 pm (#219 of 528)
missing my picture!!!!! *cry cry cry*
I don't know if anyone said this before, but if James was Lupin, wouldn't James be on the Marauders Map and not Lupin? If someone said this, sorry!
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Susurro Notities - Dec 1, 2003 6:32 pm (#220 of 528)
Interesting thought Hermionefan(#1). Is it the body or the essence of the person that is shown on the map? Is Wormtail on the map when he is a rat? If so then it would seem that it is the essence of the person not their physical form that is shown.
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freshwater - Dec 1, 2003 7:20 pm (#221 of 528)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
I believe the map shows one's essence...as when it showed B. Crouch to be in Snape's office (GoF) when it was really Barty Crouch Jr. masquerading as MEM. (Although, the map apparently cannot distinguish a Jr. from a Sr.!) That's why I thought the map must have shown "J. Potter" when Snape saw it on Lupin's desk (PoA)....that is it would have shown that IF Lupin is really James Potter in Remus Lupin's body.
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Susurro Notities - Dec 1, 2003 7:42 pm (#222 of 528)
Thank you freshwater. I hadn't thought about MEM/Barty Crouch Jr. So it would seem that Lupin cannot be James. Gee that was simple compared to the rest of the discussion on this thread.
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S.E. Jones - Dec 1, 2003 7:46 pm (#223 of 528)
Let it snow!
The map also showed "P. Pettigrew" and "S. Black" with the Trio the night they all ended up in the Shrieking Shack in PoA, thus the reason Lupin ran down to meet them so quickly.... Of course I think the reason Harry never saw that Scabbers was listed as Pettigrew was because he never had any reason to look for him on the map (the map only seems to show you the people on the path you're looking for or the people you're looking for)....
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Joost! - Dec 2, 2003 2:10 am (#224 of 528)
Second line of information
Without getting into another discussion about how the Marauder's Map works exactly, I think it would show J. Potter if this theory is true. But I don't think this proves anything...
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Bluenote1313 - Dec 4, 2003 12:51 pm (#225 of 528)
As one who has defended this theory for a while based on the evidence I wanted to go back to issues raised earlier. Just because we haven't heard of a spell to switch bodies doesn't mean there isn't one. I have always thought that there are different levels of switching spells based on your ability. McGonagall tells Neville not to tell any one he cannot perform a 'simple' switching spell. I always read that as Neville's ability being basic not the spell. Maybe better withces and wizards can perfrom advanced switching spells after years of practice.
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freshwater - Dec 4, 2003 6:18 pm (#226 of 528)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
My post of Dec. 1 was not meant to refute the "Lupin is really James Potter" theory....it could just as well support it. IF James switched into Lupin's body (to do some mission or to hide out for a later confrontation with LV), I believe that DD would definately have known about it, and that Snape may have known about it. In fact, Snape's keeping this secret (that James Potter was not killed but has been in hiding in Lupin's body) could be the proof DD has that Snape is trustworthy. So...if Snape saw "J. Potter" on the map on Lupin's desk, he would have already known his true identity, and would still have run to the Shrieking Shack to confront Sirius Black and James.
I know, I know...that's a lot of "if's" and probably a bit farfetched. But then, isn't that the whole idea of a plot twist?
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Hem Hem - Dec 17, 2003 6:39 pm (#227 of 528)
Credit goes to Gina for thinking this up, but I found it really interesting, and (what can I say?) decided to reference her idea over here. Even though I don't exactly support the Lupin=James theory myself, those who do will find this pretty interesting.
What does the J stand for in the "Professor Remus J. Lupin" found on his suitcase? Could it possibly be James?
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Denise P. - Dec 17, 2003 6:41 pm (#228 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
It could be James but it would have no bearing on the theory at all. Lupin's parents would have named him that ages before he ever met James. Of course, if it turned out it WAS James, that could be a clue from JKR. Sometimes an initial is just that. Harry S Truman didn't have a middle name, just the S.
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Hem Hem - Dec 17, 2003 6:42 pm (#229 of 528)
He could have given himself the initial, maybe.
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Mad Madame Mim - Jan 9, 2004 11:21 pm (#230 of 528)
"Don't tell me you've never heard of the marvellous Madame Mim?"
Hold on to your seats!
We have heard of a magic that allows one change into another's appearance; three times in fact. First in CS when the trio use the polyjuice potion, twice in GoF. Crouch jr. uses it to be Moody and daddy Crouch makes a brew for junior and dying mommy dear to switch in Azkaban (see GoF page 684). Also note that Daddy Crouch made enough for Mommy dear to keep her son's apperance until she died. She was buried under junior's name and apperance. Yes, she died with his apperance....
However, we have nothing citing that Lupin drinks something every hour like Crouch jr. did as Moody. And where has James/Lupin been getting hair samples for the past 15 years? Unless you can use the hair of the person you've changed into while you are that person. Crouch junior said he had to keep Moody alive to learn his patterns and habbits. He did not say that he needed Moody alive for the potion to work.
However, GoF describes that Moody's hair had been unevenly cut. This might imply that you need the original specimen for the potion to work. Or Crouch jr. could have used Moody's hair just because...
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Denise P. - Jan 10, 2004 10:30 am (#231 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
You have me confused with your logic? If you read the theory, you would see it is based on a Switching Spell, which as far as anyone knows, doesn't require the user to have anything of the recipiant.
Your post is about Polyjuice Potion, which is not used in the case of the James is Lupin theory.
If the theory is correct, the essence that is James was transfered to Lupin's body....it was not James assuming the shape/form/mannerisms of Lupin.
I like the theory but I doubt it will ever be proven or disproven.
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VeronikaG - Jan 11, 2004 7:29 am (#232 of 528)
I personally will assume that if it's not revealed as true in the next two books, it's not. It's just something someone thought up on a discussion board. I know many of you really like this theory, but I don't. I want Lupin to really be Lupin.
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Bluenote1313 - Jan 15, 2004 2:59 pm (#233 of 528)
Before all of you jump to conclusions...this is not a theory thought up on a discussion board. This theory was put forth first by the author of the unofficial Harry Potter Guide book. In that book there are numerous citings of 'unusual' behavior by Lupin specifically towards Harry. For example, Lupin's reaction when he sees that Harry's Patronus is a stag, the smae creature James Transfigured in to. JKR describes Lupin as "shaken" after seeing the Patronus. If we have learned nothing from the board, we know that JKR does not choose her words without meanings....so 'shaken' means something...what exactly we still have about 1600 pages to find out in.
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timrew - Jan 15, 2004 4:57 pm (#234 of 528)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Lupin would also be 'shaken' to see that Harry's Patronus was a stag. He doesn't have to be James to be surprised by this.
He sees his old friend's animagus produced by Harry (his son) as a Patronus. Of course he's going to be shaken!
Tha author of the unofficial Harry Potter Guide book probably knows as much about what's to come as we do!
Let's leave it to JKR to surprise us in book six or seven. Personally, I think this theory is a load of old banana skins.
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Weeny Owl - Jan 15, 2004 5:42 pm (#235 of 528)
I agree with you, tim.
As has been said before, it would be so very cruel for James to have been around all these years and not try to be part of Harry's life.
Even if he had to stay away prior to the third year at Hogwarts, James/Lupin would have plenty of reasons to stay in contact with Harry after that, especially since he told Harry a few things about the Marauders.
After all that Harry has gone through with his parents dying, his upbringing at the hands of the Dursleys, all the attempts to kill him, and his anguish over Sirius dying, I would hope JKR wouldn't do something so sadistic as to make this theory part of her books.
I would think it would be devastating for Harry to find out that he had a father all along who didn't care enough to send him a Christmas card. Granted, Lupin has little money, but he could still send a note or a card or something.
I think it would be much more in keeping with JKR's plots if Harry and Lupin become closer now that James and Sirius are gone.
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Czarina - Jan 16, 2004 8:05 am (#236 of 528)
It just wouldn't be right for Lupin to really be James Potter. The whole series is based around Harry losing his parents. His mother DIED for him. His father also died for him. Harry feels the need to avenge his parents' deaths.
That isn't to say that his parents still aren't in his life: Lily protects him through the "ancient magic" protection spell; James personifies his Patronus to protect him. They are there in spiritual form, not physical.
(Feel free to move this onto the Harry thread if this doesn't quite fit.)
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Madam Poppy - Jan 16, 2004 10:31 am (#237 of 528)
Kirsten Valleskey
I was a "believer" of The Theory till Book 5 came out. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember Lupin showing any "odd" reactions to Harry in this book.
My personal theory is that JKR had switched James with Lupin until she found out that someone had caught on. When it was published in a book and posted all over the internet, James was left dead to her readers. My only hope is that she may "come clean" and admit the James/Lupin Switching Spell some day.
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VeronikaG - Jan 16, 2004 11:26 am (#238 of 528)
Is it possible that Harry's patronus, the stag, really IS Prongs, James in his animagus shape? Maybe James' spirit is called for every time Harry casts his patronus. Maybe Lupin felt James' spiritual presence, but didn't quite know what he was experiencing. That could left him shaken.
And now you'll probably argue why Harry doesn't feel his presence. Well, it could be hidden underneath Harry's fear of dementors, and the relief of seeing his patronus appear. OK, not the best explanation.
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mollis - Jan 16, 2004 12:40 pm (#239 of 528)
I follow this thread because it is very entertaining to witness the discussion, but I'm with Tim. Banana skins all the way!
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Devika - Jan 17, 2004 2:37 am (#240 of 528)
I second Tim and Mollis!
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Gryffindor Ghost - Jan 17, 2004 6:58 am (#241 of 528)
I thought that this thread was already closed. Ok, so here is my opinion about the topic: Is Lupin really James?
Professor Remus J. Lupin a.k.a. Moony cannot be James Potter a.k.a. Prongs because James Potter was already dead! It was said so by the author herself, and was confirmed by most characters (well, at least the older ones): Mr. and Mrs. Dursley, Profs. Dumbledore and McGonagall, Hagrid, Prof. Lupin, Mrs. Weasley, Sirius, and even Voldemort.
How did Dumbledore and Hagrid get James' Invisibility Cloak and the key to their (the Potters') Gringotts vault? Simple. James, upon knowing that Voldemort was after them, gave the cloak and the key to Dumbledore, assuming that their lives were in danger. But when he was reassured of their safety(??) with the Fidelius Charm, he wasn't able to recover them because Voldemort had caught up with them and (sniff!) killed them.
As to why Lupin never really paid attention to Harry's scar, etc., well, Lupin was a very thoughtful person and perhaps he thought that comments or references to Harry's scar were likely to cause painful recollections of his tragic past. (Although Harry was quite immune to it.) Or he himself finds it painful because one of his best friends (James) died, and that his other best friend (Sirius) had betrayed the other (James). Then, he might have been afraid to mention anything about Harry's parents because mentioning them might lead to the topic of Sirius Black, which, during the third book where Lupin was featured, was avoided because Harry might discover something and do something really stupid and dangerous (like looking for Black).
Then, with that "positively fled" thing, Lupin was definitely afraid of crystal balls, isn't he? (They look like the moon to him.)
Then all those examples where Harry talks about his parents, and that he hears them whenever he gets too near a dementor, Lupin was looking "paler than usual" because he was afraid that the conversation might lead to Sirius Black. He also spoke in a "strange voice" because the memory of his friend's death is quite painful to him (and to all of us, for that matter). The strange voice might have been a pun, like that "gleam of triumph" in Dumbledore's eyes in GoF. (or they meant other things. But unless all the books were released, we can only guess, can't we?) It could have meant that his voice broke because of emotion. As to that scene after Harry's match with Ravenclaw, Lupin was "both shaken and pleased" because it was as if he was seeing James again, what with Harry's appearance and his stag Patronus. As to his "shiver" when he said "I certainly don't want Harry dead," well, Harry meant to him more than a student or a friend because he was James' only son, and james was Lupin's best friend! Plus the fact that Harry is a living replica of James (except for the eyes). I think all of us will shiver at the mere thought that we wanted someone as important to us as Harry was to Lupin.
Lupin said "we could all transform" because all of them can indeed transform. Lupin transforms into a werewolf, James into a stag, Sirius into a large dog, and Peter into a rat. Although Lupin cannot transform at will like the others, it's still called transformation, isn't it? So Lupin's use of we is correct and is not revealing anything because its just as normal for him to say that as saying we eat, drink, or sleep.
Lupin was so sure of what James would say because he had known James for a long time and knows the way James' mind works. I most of us will agree with this.
Lupin's first name of Remus is taken from one of the legendary twins, Romulus and Remus, who were believed to have been nursed by a wolf because they were orphans. This usage is in connection with Lupins identity of being a werewolf. (Okay, maybe his parents didn't know that he will be a werewolf, but since Ms. Rowling's the one who chooses names for her characters, they have no choice, do they?"
Now, this theory is quite plausible, or even possible. No one but Ms. Rowling knows. But all I have written here are my opinion and everybody has the right to criticize my post, and to contrdict it. I'd be happy to know what your ideas are about my post. As I haven't read most of the posts after my last, I haven't got any idea of those posts, but once I have read them, I will modify this post to suit the thread's progress.
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Czarina - Jan 17, 2004 7:49 am (#242 of 528)
Gryffindor Ghost, you summed up my thoughts on the matter exactly. Bravo!
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Devika - Jan 17, 2004 10:09 am (#243 of 528)
Thanks Gryffindor Ghost!
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Gryffindor Ghost - Jan 17, 2004 8:50 pm (#244 of 528)
Thanks for supporting my opinion, Czarina and Devika.
I just want another thought added: Lupin cannot be James Potter because in OotP, where everybody (well, everybody who's in close contact with the Order, anyway) already knows that Sirius didn't betray Lily and James Potter, Lupin seemed really close to Harry than he was back in PoA. That just means that Lupin isn't anxious anymore about what Harry might know that he shouldn't (except of course about the prophecy, which everybody from Dumbledore to Sirius was careful not to mention to Harry because he was still too young to know).
Then there's the scene where Harry breaks into Umbridge's office to use her fire in order to talk to Sirius, where Harry talks to Sirius and Lupin about what he had witnessed in the Pensieve (with Snape's thoughts), Sirius and Lupin beamed reminiscently upon hearing Harry's story. Lupin also asked if James was playing with the Snitch. Then he told Harry the real score about James and Lily's relationship in an outsider's point of view.
Well, if Lupin really was James, he wouldn't have done or said those things so convincingly, even though he tries really hard not to reveal himself, would he? I mean, even when you are in disguise, it's always likely that you will still act as yourself and let something slip (well, except if you are a well-trained imposter, like Barty Crouch, Jr., which I think Lupin most certainly isn't).
Another one: If Lupin was indeed James, he would have told Sirius about it, or, in the light (or dark) of Sirius' death, he would have revealed himself to console Harry, to show him that he's still got someone, wouldn't he? Not unless he has some big reason not to do so. Or unless Ms. Rowling isn't going to reveal him until the sixth or seventh book. Who knows? I've said before that this theory is plausible (quoting Dumbledore), "possible, I'd say probable". This is just my opinion. I do not mean to contradict or to critize the person who started this thread, but this is what I think of the topic. Well, to each his own, right? Let me know what you think, folks. Bye bye for now. Quite busy.
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Landman - Jan 19, 2004 1:27 pm (#245 of 528)
Not unless he has some big reason not to do so.
Whenever someone disagrees with this theory, there is usually something like your sentence above included in the post. This is really the whole point of the theory -- first, it's possible, and second we have not been told everything and everyone's decisions. We won't know until the end of book 7.
Having said that, I don't believe that OotP advanced the case of this theory very much. I think Madam Poppy may be right on that JKR changed her mind about this and decided to stop dropping any hints or references in the latest book.
Since I started this thread, maybe I can end it -- I think everything that could be said about this has been. I appreciate everyone's input -- thanks.
The End??
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Madam Poppy - Jan 20, 2004 1:51 pm (#246 of 528)
Kirsten Valleskey
THE END!
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Denise P. - Jan 20, 2004 9:03 pm (#247 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
While I think that JKR will never confirm or deny this theory, I have always liked it. Ever since I first read the theory and brought it up on this board, it has brought heated debated from those who oppose it.
I poo-poo'd it when I first read it but after reading the entire theory, in the Clues book as well as the supporting evidence listed, I was more willing to concede that while unlikely, it was a remote possibility. Since then, I have always thought it was possible.
If someone had posted, back in the days before CoS and PoA were published, that Scabbers was really a wizard hiding and not a rat, I think it would have had a similar reception among fans.
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Bluenote1313 - Jan 21, 2004 12:04 pm (#248 of 528)
Exactly NoVeil. Scabbers as a person? Please! But look what happened...it began an integral part of the story line and no one is complaining now.
Now...do I think the theory is true? After book 5 its a lot less likely but still POSSIBLE. These theories are all about possibilities not truth since there is only one person who knows the truth. And she ain't talkin' yet.
Dismissing the theory because it was cruel or because that makes James a bad father? Hardly. Look at the facts. If Harry found out his father was alive do you think he would go back to the Dursley's where he is completely safe? Do you think James (as Lupin) could continue to be a non-threat? Once the secret is out, it is out all the way.
As far as why Lupin wasn't in the story more in Book 5....the point of the Sirius/Harry relationship was to set up the ending and the emotions involved in that. If we had spent a whole 700 pages developing the Lupin/Harry relationship and then Sirius died...who would have cared? Just becasue it wasn't a focus point for book 5 doesn't mean it is any less possible.
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Aimeé - Jan 30, 2004 10:16 pm (#249 of 528)
I like this theory, I don't think it should come to an end. It has good bases, I mean, it is possible because there are a lot of questions on Lupin's reaction towards Harry and as I said, it's a great theory and it has good bases as well, so, come on!, don't end it, it's always fun to guess and it's best if there are things we should give a thought (this is the case).
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Luanee - Feb 2, 2004 11:00 pm (#250 of 528)
Well if it is really Jame's soul trapped inside Lupin's body, then is it still capable of transforming to a werewolf during full moon? Somehow I think this theory is not possible, too far-fetched, but it's interesting.
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Lupin is really James Potter (Post 251 to 300)
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Bluenote1313 - Feb 3, 2004 8:05 am (#251 of 528)
I think of all the parts of this theory, the werewolf thing is the easiest to explain....being a werewolf is a physical thing affecting the body of Lupin, no matter whose soul is inside it the body will still be forced to change...
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Loopy Lupin - Feb 24, 2004 2:02 pm (#252 of 528)
My two cents goes back to something hinted at in earlier posts. If you re-read the dialogue in the Shrieking Shack part of POA, it is clear that Sirius thought Lupin was the traitor in their midst which was part of the reason he trusted Pettigrew to become Secret Keeper. (Recall the Sirius and Lupin both forgive each other for thinking this). I cannot imagine that if Sirius thought this, he had not shared his thoughts with the Potters. So, why on earth would James switch with someone he believed to be a traitor?
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Bluenote1313 - Feb 25, 2004 12:21 pm (#253 of 528)
If you go back read the chain of events for this theory you will see that most assumed that Sirius was the traitor based on family history. I think the idea was he would swith with Lupin for a short period of time so that Lupin could prove to James he was not the traitor, as well do some investigating under the disguise of Lupin. On one of these nights out, the secret keeper charm was done with Peter as the keeper. James (as Lupin) comes to see Sirius (who was assumed to be the secret keeper) desperate to find the Potter's to switch back. Sirius already didn't trust Lupin but was now even more suspicious. Then, when the Potters location was revealed and they were killed Sirius KNEW it was Peter that was the traitor. Sirius never saw Lupin again becasue he was captured the next day. James (as Lupin) assumed that Sirius was the secret keeper the whole time and figured him to be ther traitor. Hence the revelation in PoA than neither was the traitor and thier reconciliation.
Hope that helps.
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Denise P. - Mar 19, 2004 9:55 am (#254 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
I agree Bluenote. The whole theory hinges on several factors and one of them is that neither Lupin or James intended this to be more than just a short term switch. Events spiraled out of their control. Had James any clue of what was shortly to occur, he would not have agreed to it and allowed his family to be killed while he lived, however inadvertantly.
I do like this theory although I will admit it is rather farfetched. There are enough clue to warrant giving it consideration and if JKR never confirms or denies it, there is still clues to show it could be the case. At least, all the clues to this point in the series suggests that it could be possible.
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Hogs Head - Mar 19, 2004 4:25 pm (#255 of 528)
Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Just my opinion, but I think Lupin is really not James Potter.
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VeronikaG - Mar 23, 2004 6:59 am (#256 of 528)
But why oh WHY do you want to keep on believing that Lupin is James if it's never confirmed? Shouldn't Harry have the right to know by the end of the series if that's the case?
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Denise P. - Mar 23, 2004 7:28 am (#257 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Just because *I* believe it to be possible doesn't mean Harry does. As far as I know, Harry has never even entertained the idea that Lupin could be James
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Hogs Head - Mar 23, 2004 10:23 am (#258 of 528)
Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Veronika G. -- When you say, "But why oh WHY do you want to keep on believing that Lupin is James if it's never confirmed? Shouldn't Harry have the right to know by the end of the series if that's the case?" I trust you weren't referring to me or my immediately prior post. I DON'T believe it.
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VeronikaG - Mar 24, 2004 1:06 am (#259 of 528)
No, Hogs Head, I was referring to Denise's post. I don't think that Lupin is James either, because in HP only the "bad guys" pretend to be someone they are not. (Scabbers/Peter Pettigrew, Moody/Crouch) I'm not counting Tonks in here, because even if she can change appearance, we know from the beginning who she is.
Even if I don't believe the Lupin = James theory, I would want it to be revealed by the end of the series, if it's true. I just see no point whatsoever in JKR making James and Lupin change places, and then never let Harry or the readers know that Harry's father's alive. That wouldn't be nice. Then again, she could just realize that people are on to her theory, but I would want her to still go through with it, if that was her plan. And she has also said that nobody can make her change the story line.
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Denise P. - Mar 24, 2004 6:35 am (#260 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
There is no pretense going on though. If this theory is correct, there was a body switch involved. Since that night, James, for his own safety and possibly that of Harry, has had to become Lupin in order to survive. For all intents and purposes, he is now Lupin. He is subject to the cycle of a werewolf because that is a physical change directly associated with Lupin. Since it was just a body switch, I would think that his memories and experiences up to the switch are purely James though.
I have never seen the quote by JKR where she claims only bad guys pretend to be someone they are not. Can you tell me which interview?
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VeronikaG - Mar 24, 2004 6:56 am (#261 of 528)
That was never said in an interview, it's only my observation. It is very possible to prove me wrong on it.
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Denise P. - Mar 24, 2004 7:04 am (#262 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Whoops...read that wrong, thought you had said JKR said it.
This entire theory, to this point in the books, is one that can't be totally proven or ruled out, that is one reason I like it so much.
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Prefect Marcus - Mar 24, 2004 10:30 am (#263 of 528)
"Anyone can cook"
Denise P. - "This entire theory, to this point in the books, is one that can't be totally proven or ruled out, that is one reason I like it so much. "
Ummm, what about shadow-Lily telling Harry that his father was about to come out of the wand?
Marcus
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Denise P. - Mar 24, 2004 10:40 am (#264 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
It is not clear, based on the evidence of the theory, if Lily knows of the switch or not. In her defense, she believes James to be James and has no reason to suspect otherwise. If she does know of the switch, she is not going to endanger James (as Lupin) by saying "Wait until your father who is really Lupin comes out" and give the entire jig up.
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hopping hessian - Mar 29, 2004 12:13 pm (#265 of 528)
"Extrodinary claims require extrordinary proof" -Bill Nye
What about what JKR said in an interview: "Voldemort killed James and Lily and then tried to kill Harry." It seems so unlike her to be that direct unless there is no mystery about it. Also, in the scene in SS (which JKR added herself), right before Lily slams the door she screams "James". If it were really Lupin, why would she do that? If she knew about the switch, she could have been trying to deceive Voldy, but under such emotional stress, it seems more likely that she would have forgotten about the deception and screamed "Behind you!" or "He's here!" Why "James"? But what if she didn't know about it? If James thought Lupin was the traitor and switched bodies to see if he was, why would he leave his wife and son with a potential traitor and not warn her? Just a couple of questions.
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Padfoot - Mar 29, 2004 12:20 pm (#266 of 528)
If James is really Lupin I will be severely dissapointed. What kind of father is he? Plus, Harry really likes Lupin now. If he found out that Lupin was his dad in disguise but didn't tell him he would be furious and deeply hurt.
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draco all the way - Apr 5, 2004 12:03 am (#267 of 528)
See,now this theory's just dumb. It's fun and all but don't you think you're going overboard with it? I mean Lupin is so clearly a well defined and seperate induvidual. And if he was James would'nt he look after Harry more? Would'nt he ask Harry about his childhood and about all those years he (James) had'nt been there for him? I mean would'nt he have at least said " your father loved you very much ". I'm trying to look at this from another point of view, but I'm sorry I just can't see it.
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Denise P. - Apr 5, 2004 6:44 am (#268 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
As I have stated before and as others who have read the full theory have said, you can't get the sense of this by the little bit posted on this thread. In order to even consider the theory, you need to get The Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter and read the corresponding canon that is used as a base for the theory.
However, you can think it is a dumb theory. There are plenty of theories floating around on the Forum that I find farfetched as well but I don't totally discount them.
How many, prior to PoA, would have scoffed and jeered at the idea of Scabbers being wizard??
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Bluenote1313 - Apr 5, 2004 8:07 am (#269 of 528)
Well said Denise. Just because we like the theory and defend it doesn't mean it will be true. Prior to Book 5, 90% of the people thought that Hagrid would be dead by now. Theory is theory....this one happens to have some circumstantial evidence to back it up...
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draco all the way - Apr 5, 2004 8:17 am (#270 of 528)
I am sorry to offend you all. I guess I was being a tad harsh. I tried, you know, to see it from your point of view but I just could'nt get it. Maybe this is one of those theories that I will never get. And I have read the Unofficial Guide once but I still did'nt get it. I realised when i read my post over again how arrogant I seemed. You are right the Scabber's theory was totally far fetched.And if that can come true perhaps this can too. Again I apoligise.
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Denise P. - Apr 5, 2004 8:43 am (#271 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
draco, no need...many people dislike this theory. Everyone embraces those theories they like and discounts those they don't, that is the nature of people.
I think that one thing that JKR has shown over and over is that things are not always what they seem and just when you think you have it figured out, she is going to turn what you think you know upside down and shake it really hard. That is one thing I just really love about this series.
Now, I am off to make my James is Lupin shirt
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Loopy Lupin - Apr 5, 2004 10:21 am (#272 of 528)
I'm afraid that I can't really get in line with this theory. I don't think its "dumb" but there are quite a few things here that JKR would have to really explain well for this to make sense. For me, the biggest obstacle to all of this is the very idea that James would just be more or less standing on the side lines all this time while his son is physically and mentally abused by the Dursleys not to mention everything that has happened up till now.
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Prefect Marcus - Apr 5, 2004 12:07 pm (#273 of 528)
"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Apr 5, 2004 12:09 pm
I agree 100%, Loopy. There are just too many places that it could go wrong.
So unless Murphy takes a holiday, I just can't see it.
Marcus
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Catherine - Apr 5, 2004 12:26 pm (#274 of 528)
Canon Seeker
I've proposed some "over the top" things myself, and it has been very entertaining to see how much discussion this thread generates, which I think is great. I have also not read Waters's book, which I plan to do, so that I can understand the theory from its source.
Nonetheless, there are some real holes here, most of which have been discussed at some length, so I will just say "me, too!" on those and proceed with my own thoughts.
I agree with those posters who say that there is "more" to Lupin than we have seen thus far. Very true! After OotP, I became convinced that Lupin is a legilimens--the scene in PoA where he stares intently at Sirius, and then hugs him made me think that he was practicing legilmency to see if Sirius was lying. This may account for him apparently "reading Harry's mind" and staring at Harry.
For those who seemed to think it was important that Remus seemed to know Harry, I think this is easily explained by Remus's relationship with Lily and James. He was one of James's best friends, a member of the Order of the Phoenix, and it wouldn't have been unusual for Remus to have seen Harry as a baby. Harry looks so much like James that Remus would have known him anywhere, even if he had never seen Harry before. In addition, he may have watched Harry from afar. Harry was under survellience the whole summer in OotP and was unaware of it until the night of the dementor attack. Who's to say that Dumbledore didn't have trustworthy wizards watching the area during Harry's childhood?
I think it is a stretch to say that a stag was "James's patronus." What was probably meant is that James transformed into a stag. He had seen James transform many times. That's why he was so shaken to see Harry's stag patronus--it would have been like seeing a ghost for him.
In the end, I have always believed that some important Switching Spell took place--the clues have been laid, and I think it will be important. I just don't think that Lupin and James switched.
Can't wait to find out how right or wrong we all are!
Cheers.
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Prefect Marcus - Apr 5, 2004 12:45 pm (#275 of 528)
"Anyone can cook"
Catherine Allen - "For those who seemed to think it was important that Remus seemed to know Harry, I think this is easily explained by Remus's relationship with Lily and James. He was one of James's best friends, a member of the Order of the Phoenix, and it wouldn't have been unusual for Remus to have seen Harry as a baby. Harry looks so much like James that Remus would have known him anywhere, even if he had never seen Harry before. In addition, he may have watched Harry from afar. Harry was under survellience the whole summer in OotP and was unaware of it until the night of the dementor attack. Who's to say that Dumbledore didn't have trustworthy wizards watching the area during Harry's childhood?"
It can be explained even easier than that. Harry is constantly being recognized by the WW as "Harry Potter", or as Draco puts it, "Scar-face". We are also told over and over again that Harry looks remarkablely like his father. There is also the little matter that Ron and Hermione were calling Harry by name when he had colapsed from the first Dementor encounter, and Professor Lupin was right there in the compartment when they did it.
So, we have a world-famous boy sporting a world-famous scar, whose friends are anxiously calling "Harry", who is the spitting image of Lupin's best friend, James Potter.
Would somebody please explain to me exactly why it should come as a shock that Lupin recognizes him?
Marcus
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hopping hessian - Apr 5, 2004 5:54 pm (#276 of 528)
"Extrodinary claims require extrordinary proof" -Bill Nye
Well, said. Lupin is no moron. Besides, people are different. Just because Lupin reacts to things differently than the norm (i.e. Harry's scar), or in what some think of as suspect (i.e. James' voice) doesn't mean that he is hiding something.
As for fleeing from Sybil, I'm rather found of the theory that she had a crush on him and he was trying to stay away. I have some evidence for this, but this isn't the right place to post it.
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draco all the way - Apr 5, 2004 9:31 pm (#277 of 528)
Oh hey hopping hessian, I know this isn't the right forum but I love Bill Nye The Science Guy, especially the songs! Isn't the show cancelled?
I still feel if Lupin was James he would of expressed his feelings a bit more. I mean he's missed out on most of Harry's childhood. Wouldn't he even inquire about that? Plus I like Lupin as the quiet guy he is. Like hopping said just because he reacts differently doesn't mean he's hiding something. It's just his nature. Plus he is a bit more attached to Harry's past then many other people therefore he has the right to act differently. Did that make any sense?
Go Bill Nye the Science Guy!
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hopping hessian - Apr 7, 2004 6:07 am (#278 of 528)
"Extrodinary claims require extrordinary proof" -Bill Nye
I still feel if Lupin was James he would of expressed his feelings a bit more. I mean he's missed out on most of Harry's childhood. Wouldn't he even inquire about that?
That's a very good point. I also can't picture James leaving his wife and baby when he knew they were in danger. James might have been many things, but he was no coward.
I love Bill Nye The Science Guy, especially the songs! Always happy to meet another Nyeite!
Isn't the show cancelled?
Sadly, yes *hh begins to sob*
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Denise P. - Apr 29, 2004 6:14 am (#279 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
I still feel if Lupin was James he would of expressed his feelings a bit more. I mean he's missed out on most of Harry's childhood. Wouldn't he even inquire about that?
It was brought out on the Neville thread, when it was suggested that his parents illness is a ruse, that a parent would do what is necessary to keep a child safe and alive. Speaking as one, it would just about do me in but I would do anything I could to keep my children safe and alive.
We know James, for whatever reason was targeted. If it were known he is alive, even as Lupin, that would make him a target as well. He is doing what he can to keep his child alive.
Yes, it is tough but if this theory is correct, James is practicing tough lough. I don't think he enjoys this and I think he is hoping that Harry will understand why he did it and forgive him.
Tough love is just that, tough. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...and all those other cliches.
And once again, James did NOT leave his wife and child. He had no idea that Voldemort would be paying a housecall later that evening. If he had, there is NO WAY that he and Lupin would have switched.
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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Apr 29, 2004 6:44 am (#280 of 528)
Sometimes known as Kim.
Well, Denise, you didn't expect me not to respond?
My personal feelings for this theory aside, I can't get past Lupin's speech in the Shrieking Shack whenever this theory is floated out. There is nothing in that speech to suggest that he is anyone other than Lupin.
"This house"--Lupin looked miserably around the room,--"the tunnel that leads to it--they were built for my use."
"But I always managed to forget my guilty feelings every time we sat down to plan our next month's adventure. And I haven't changed..." Lupin's face had hardened, and there was self-disgust in his voice. "All this year, I have been battling with myself, wondering whether I should tell Dumbledore that Sirius was an Animagus. But I didn't do it. Why? Because I was too cowardly. It would have meant admitting that I'd betrayed his trust while I was at school, admitting that I'd led others along with me...and Dumbledore's trust has meant everything to me."
There are many passages from this scene I could use, but these two seem so clearly to reflect Lupin speaking in the first person and not James trying to imitate Lupin.
In addition to these examples, there is Lupin's exit from the school. If he were indeed James, I think it would have been much more difficult to go. Lupin was sad to go, but there was no indication that he(James) was leaving the son he'd been separated from for 12 years.
But as to what you said about tough love, I agree. I'm sure James would do anything to spare his child. Including fighting Voldemort to the death in Godric's Hollow. I realize that he didn't know Voldemort would be coming that night, but they were in hiding for a reason. He knew Voldemort was looking for them. James' family was in mortal danger and needed protection. I can't see him delegating that role to anyone else. Even Lupin.
Well, I'll stop now.
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Maollelujah - Apr 29, 2004 10:03 pm (#281 of 528)
It was brought out on the Neville thread, when it was suggested that his parents illness is a ruse, that a parent would do what is necessary to keep a child safe and alive. Speaking as one, it would just about do me in but I would do anything I could to keep my children safe and alive.
But Lupin/James has done really very little to ensure his child's safety. If Harry's safety was his number one priority, he wouldn't have resigned from Hogworts and he surely would have showed up around Hogwarts during GoF, after reading the signs similar to what Sirius had done.
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draco all the way - Apr 30, 2004 12:18 am (#282 of 528)
Maollelujah, excellant point! If lupin was James he would of at least hung around at Hogsmeade during GoF!
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Denise P. - Apr 30, 2004 5:51 am (#283 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
If your life and the life of your child depended upon you keeping the secret safe, that you were alive, you would do anything needed.
But Lupin/James has done really very little to ensure his child's safety. If Harry's safety was his number one priority, he wouldn't have resigned from Hogworts and he surely would have showed up around Hogwarts during GoF, after reading the signs similar to what Sirius had done.
How hard do you imagine it would be, as a parent, to stay away from your child, to not tell him the truth, to not protect him and want to hug on him? It would be nearly unbearable and such an incredible strain to be around him day by day and do nothing? By leaving Hogwarts, James/Lupin has ensured that he won't break the secret and jeopardize either himself or Harry.
After living as Lupin for so long, it is a survival mechanism to speak as Lupin, to tell things from Lupins point of view. People are capable of doing extraordinary things under extraordinary circumstances. Being unexpectedly trapped in the body of someone else, a werewolf no less, certainly qualifies as extraordinary. Add in there that some madman is trying to kill you, already killed your family and you are alive through sheer chance....I am truly amazed that Lupin/James is not a stark raving loon. The burden that he has had to carry in addition to the werewolf burden is unreal.
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haymoni - Apr 30, 2004 6:17 am (#284 of 528)
Wouldn't we have heard someplace that James was a werewolf?
I mean how can he be James, Lupin AND a werewolf?
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Denise P. - Apr 30, 2004 6:34 am (#285 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
:::sigh::: The problem that exists in this thread is that many of those who oppose it have never read the actual theory, the entire thing. It is contained with The Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter
James is NOT a werewolf, Lupin is
James and Lupin switched bodies and when Voldemort attacked
Lupin (in the body of James) was killed while James (in the body of Lupin) survived
Lupin's body, where James resides, is a werewolf.
James, in Lupin's body, has no choice in the matter and is bound by the physical restraints of Lupin's body
Lupin's physical body will change, doesn't matter who is residing within the body
Think of it similar to a cornea transplant. I may get the cornea of a brilliant artist but that will not make me a brilliant artist.
I realize a lot of people don't like this theory but really, check the book to get the FULL theory rather than the barebones theory that has been posted here on the thread.
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haymoni - Apr 30, 2004 9:53 am (#286 of 528)
You are absolutely right, Denise.
I can't understand it because I haven't read it but, like fan fiction, I won't read it.
I have a hard enough time trying to remember the difference between the books and the movies - through in some theories that are well-written and well-researched - I'll be a mess!
I need another JKR chat to clear away the questions!
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Loopy Lupin - Apr 30, 2004 11:51 am (#287 of 528)
I admit to not having read the theory from the Unofficial Guide, but I have been reading these new posts with interest. Nevertheless, my views on this matter remain unchanged from those expressed several posts back.
To put it as simply as possible, I fail to see how keeping this secret is of such paramount importance that Harry had to be condemned to 11 years at the hands of abusive relatives. This is not to mention "James/Lupin's" perpetual absence throughout most of Harry's wizarding life. I fail to see how the revelation of Lupin's "true identity" would put Harry in any more danger than he already has been during the course of this story.
Also, I can understand that James/Lupin would have to "keep up appearances" and act as though he were Lupin. However, what bothers me about that is that going into a detailed "recollection" of some of Lupin's experiences seems to exacerbate the lie.
I guess I still just have not seen an explanation that would justify what Harry has been put through in the name of keeping this secret.
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NYCNomad - Apr 30, 2004 12:14 pm (#288 of 528)
I must confess, The Ultimate Unofficial Guide has some good points, but halfway through and especially in the addition for OotP, I felt they were being a little rediculous(sp?). JKR says something once and they immediatly turn it into a running theme. She says that someone was wide eyed and all of a sudden her animagus form is a wide eyed frog. There were some very very good points in there. Things that I would have never caught myself and definitions that saved me a lot of time on the computer looking things up. But, also think about what is being said. So, that's my 2 knuts worth, sorry if I offended anyone.
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Loopy Lupin - Apr 30, 2004 12:20 pm (#289 of 528)
The Unofficial Guide is a good source and they have some good theories. But, at times, they do go a little overboard.
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Bluenote1313 - May 3, 2004 1:22 pm (#290 of 528)
Have they released the section for OotP for the Unofficial Guide yet? I am curious to see how they continued this theory into book 5.
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Prefect Marcus - May 3, 2004 1:31 pm (#291 of 528)
"Anyone can cook"
I saw the OoP section of the Unoffical Guide in a bookstore recently.
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NYCNomad - May 4, 2004 7:48 am (#292 of 528)
I have it, I've read it and I was honestly upset with it. I feel that they reushed to get it out and did a sloppy job with it. Things were not thought out. They made running bits at the first mention of things, and I felt they were spending more time saying their "sleuth-o-scope" or whatever it was was going off to various degrees. If you see it in the book store, read a bit of it before you take it home. If I did, I would have put it right back on the shelfs.
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Sherbie Lemon - May 4, 2004 9:38 am (#293 of 528)
Hear, Hear, NYCNomad! Thankfully I got if for Christmas; if I'd spent a dime on it myself I would be quite perturbed. I feel it is rushed as well. The original Ultimate Guide is pretty good, though like everyone has said, they read a lot into a little detail. Hey, I'm all for symbolism and hidden meanings, but gimme a break, some of that stuff is just ridiculous.
I do love this theory, though. I'm not saying I believe it, but I enjoy reading it and imagining what the outcome would be for poor Harry if it turned out to be true.
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DJ Evans - May 4, 2004 10:57 am (#294 of 528)
Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
I too have the OotP book and to me it's a waste of good paper. But, I did hear (no "actual" facts yet--just rumors) that they are planning on another book for the OotP book. But it will be around 2 years before it is out. They said they knew they had rush that book, but was wanting to get something out there in the market for book 5. Personally I think they should have waited. I mean I really liked the way the dealt with books 1-4 and expected the same out of their second book.
Sherbie, lucky you got it as a present--I spent my hard cold cash for it!!!
I can't see Lupin as James either, just as the Giant Squid is the Giant Squid, Lupin is Lupin and James is James.
Later days, Deb
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NYCNomad - May 4, 2004 12:40 pm (#295 of 528)
Thank goodness I'm not the only that felt that way. I do have to say they got a couple good things that I appreciated, but that was a severe waste. As far as James being Lupin, I am not counting that theory out as of yet. I have some good arguments for and against. But my best friend is a stout believer in it and I promised to back him on his if he would back me on mine, so.... Lupin is James!!!!
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Loopy Lupin - May 4, 2004 2:06 pm (#296 of 528)
I just want to throw in an additional 2 Knuts from me that I did think that the Oop unofficial guide was rushed and some things are just not there no matter how hard you read into them. In particular, many of their "running bits" are just coincidental word choices by JKR and not deliberate. Don't get me wrong, I fully understand that JKR is very deliberate in her word choice and their are plenty of things, names in particular, that have a many-layered meaning, but not to the degree implied by the guide.
Now, to get back on topic: No way does Remus=James! hehe
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Weeny Owl - May 13, 2004 11:59 pm (#297 of 528)
It's an interesting theory, but how would it work at the end of the series?
Harry defeats Voldie, then James/Lupin comes over and says, "Oh, by the way, I'm really your father." Harry is thrilled?
After everything Harry has gone through, I would think he would feel betrayed rather than happy. Perhaps James/Lupin couldn't be around him before the third year at Hogwarts, but what about after that? He could easily have shown some interest in Harry even if only as a friend of Harry's parents. As far as we know, there's been no communication between them, and while Lupin has no money, he could arrange to get a letter to Harry occasionally.
I can't see how such an ending would benefit the series, and to explain it might take more pages than it's worth considering everything else that's going to have to be explained.
The other reason I think Lupin is Lupin is that if he were actually James, I just don't see him being quite so pleasant to Snape. He might be able to pull it off, but it seems unlikely. Granted, James was supposed to have lost his big head, but Sirius and Lupin did say that while James stopped hexing everyone just for the fun of it, his relationship with Snape never really changed.
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Bluenote1313 - May 14, 2004 6:15 am (#298 of 528)
The Snape thing in very interesting but we are not sure what James feelings for Snape are at the end. In OotP we see how they treated each other as fifth years. But if you remember, James was not a prefect but ended up Head Boy by 7th year. Something in those two years changed to make everyone think he was good enough to be Head Boy. Maybe with this change came a change in attitude towards Snape. On the other hand, Snape is just the sort of guy (like Sirius) to hold a grudge for 15-20 years.
I just finished reading the 'hint' book for the OotP and I am disappointed. I did not know before I bought it that it was not the full analysis but only a rushed version of hint/clues in the book. They say they will be releasing a version much more like the books 1-4 analysis later this year. Hopefully that will of better use.
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Tomoé - May 14, 2004 12:45 pm (#299 of 528)
Back in business
'She started going out with him in seventh year,' said Lupin.
'Once James had deflated his head a bit,' said Sirius.
'And stopped hexing people just for the fun of it,' said Lupin.
'Even Snape?' said Harry
'Well,' said Lupin slowly, 'Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?'
'And my mum was OK with that?'
'She didn't know too much about it, to tell you the truth,' said Sirius. 'I mean, James didn't take Snape on dates with her and jinx him in front of her, did he?' (UK OoP ch.29 pp.593-594)
It do sounds like James and Snape were still hexing each other in the seventh year, when James and Lily were together, and were still at row when James died. Poor Harry is trapped in his parents unsolved quarrels, Snape on his father side and Petunia on her mother side.
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Kieran Burke - May 16, 2004 3:48 pm (#300 of 528)
I really hope James isn't Lupin because Remus is my favourite character so far. I think its the fact that not only is he such a great character but that he stays so calm all the time. I think he does have something to hide and I think we'll see just how good a wizard he really is in the up coming books, and I think he'll impress us. After all that's happened to him I hope he gets a relativly happy ending because he's suffered as much as Harry really, and I think he really deserves to get the DADA posistion back at Hogwarts.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I think of all the parts of this theory, the werewolf thing is the easiest to explain....being a werewolf is a physical thing affecting the body of Lupin, no matter whose soul is inside it the body will still be forced to change...
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Loopy Lupin - Feb 24, 2004 2:02 pm (#252 of 528)
My two cents goes back to something hinted at in earlier posts. If you re-read the dialogue in the Shrieking Shack part of POA, it is clear that Sirius thought Lupin was the traitor in their midst which was part of the reason he trusted Pettigrew to become Secret Keeper. (Recall the Sirius and Lupin both forgive each other for thinking this). I cannot imagine that if Sirius thought this, he had not shared his thoughts with the Potters. So, why on earth would James switch with someone he believed to be a traitor?
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Bluenote1313 - Feb 25, 2004 12:21 pm (#253 of 528)
If you go back read the chain of events for this theory you will see that most assumed that Sirius was the traitor based on family history. I think the idea was he would swith with Lupin for a short period of time so that Lupin could prove to James he was not the traitor, as well do some investigating under the disguise of Lupin. On one of these nights out, the secret keeper charm was done with Peter as the keeper. James (as Lupin) comes to see Sirius (who was assumed to be the secret keeper) desperate to find the Potter's to switch back. Sirius already didn't trust Lupin but was now even more suspicious. Then, when the Potters location was revealed and they were killed Sirius KNEW it was Peter that was the traitor. Sirius never saw Lupin again becasue he was captured the next day. James (as Lupin) assumed that Sirius was the secret keeper the whole time and figured him to be ther traitor. Hence the revelation in PoA than neither was the traitor and thier reconciliation.
Hope that helps.
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Denise P. - Mar 19, 2004 9:55 am (#254 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
I agree Bluenote. The whole theory hinges on several factors and one of them is that neither Lupin or James intended this to be more than just a short term switch. Events spiraled out of their control. Had James any clue of what was shortly to occur, he would not have agreed to it and allowed his family to be killed while he lived, however inadvertantly.
I do like this theory although I will admit it is rather farfetched. There are enough clue to warrant giving it consideration and if JKR never confirms or denies it, there is still clues to show it could be the case. At least, all the clues to this point in the series suggests that it could be possible.
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Hogs Head - Mar 19, 2004 4:25 pm (#255 of 528)
Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Just my opinion, but I think Lupin is really not James Potter.
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VeronikaG - Mar 23, 2004 6:59 am (#256 of 528)
But why oh WHY do you want to keep on believing that Lupin is James if it's never confirmed? Shouldn't Harry have the right to know by the end of the series if that's the case?
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Denise P. - Mar 23, 2004 7:28 am (#257 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Just because *I* believe it to be possible doesn't mean Harry does. As far as I know, Harry has never even entertained the idea that Lupin could be James
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Hogs Head - Mar 23, 2004 10:23 am (#258 of 528)
Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Veronika G. -- When you say, "But why oh WHY do you want to keep on believing that Lupin is James if it's never confirmed? Shouldn't Harry have the right to know by the end of the series if that's the case?" I trust you weren't referring to me or my immediately prior post. I DON'T believe it.
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VeronikaG - Mar 24, 2004 1:06 am (#259 of 528)
No, Hogs Head, I was referring to Denise's post. I don't think that Lupin is James either, because in HP only the "bad guys" pretend to be someone they are not. (Scabbers/Peter Pettigrew, Moody/Crouch) I'm not counting Tonks in here, because even if she can change appearance, we know from the beginning who she is.
Even if I don't believe the Lupin = James theory, I would want it to be revealed by the end of the series, if it's true. I just see no point whatsoever in JKR making James and Lupin change places, and then never let Harry or the readers know that Harry's father's alive. That wouldn't be nice. Then again, she could just realize that people are on to her theory, but I would want her to still go through with it, if that was her plan. And she has also said that nobody can make her change the story line.
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Denise P. - Mar 24, 2004 6:35 am (#260 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
There is no pretense going on though. If this theory is correct, there was a body switch involved. Since that night, James, for his own safety and possibly that of Harry, has had to become Lupin in order to survive. For all intents and purposes, he is now Lupin. He is subject to the cycle of a werewolf because that is a physical change directly associated with Lupin. Since it was just a body switch, I would think that his memories and experiences up to the switch are purely James though.
I have never seen the quote by JKR where she claims only bad guys pretend to be someone they are not. Can you tell me which interview?
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VeronikaG - Mar 24, 2004 6:56 am (#261 of 528)
That was never said in an interview, it's only my observation. It is very possible to prove me wrong on it.
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Denise P. - Mar 24, 2004 7:04 am (#262 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Whoops...read that wrong, thought you had said JKR said it.
This entire theory, to this point in the books, is one that can't be totally proven or ruled out, that is one reason I like it so much.
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Prefect Marcus - Mar 24, 2004 10:30 am (#263 of 528)
"Anyone can cook"
Denise P. - "This entire theory, to this point in the books, is one that can't be totally proven or ruled out, that is one reason I like it so much. "
Ummm, what about shadow-Lily telling Harry that his father was about to come out of the wand?
Marcus
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Denise P. - Mar 24, 2004 10:40 am (#264 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
It is not clear, based on the evidence of the theory, if Lily knows of the switch or not. In her defense, she believes James to be James and has no reason to suspect otherwise. If she does know of the switch, she is not going to endanger James (as Lupin) by saying "Wait until your father who is really Lupin comes out" and give the entire jig up.
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hopping hessian - Mar 29, 2004 12:13 pm (#265 of 528)
"Extrodinary claims require extrordinary proof" -Bill Nye
What about what JKR said in an interview: "Voldemort killed James and Lily and then tried to kill Harry." It seems so unlike her to be that direct unless there is no mystery about it. Also, in the scene in SS (which JKR added herself), right before Lily slams the door she screams "James". If it were really Lupin, why would she do that? If she knew about the switch, she could have been trying to deceive Voldy, but under such emotional stress, it seems more likely that she would have forgotten about the deception and screamed "Behind you!" or "He's here!" Why "James"? But what if she didn't know about it? If James thought Lupin was the traitor and switched bodies to see if he was, why would he leave his wife and son with a potential traitor and not warn her? Just a couple of questions.
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Padfoot - Mar 29, 2004 12:20 pm (#266 of 528)
If James is really Lupin I will be severely dissapointed. What kind of father is he? Plus, Harry really likes Lupin now. If he found out that Lupin was his dad in disguise but didn't tell him he would be furious and deeply hurt.
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draco all the way - Apr 5, 2004 12:03 am (#267 of 528)
See,now this theory's just dumb. It's fun and all but don't you think you're going overboard with it? I mean Lupin is so clearly a well defined and seperate induvidual. And if he was James would'nt he look after Harry more? Would'nt he ask Harry about his childhood and about all those years he (James) had'nt been there for him? I mean would'nt he have at least said " your father loved you very much ". I'm trying to look at this from another point of view, but I'm sorry I just can't see it.
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Denise P. - Apr 5, 2004 6:44 am (#268 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
As I have stated before and as others who have read the full theory have said, you can't get the sense of this by the little bit posted on this thread. In order to even consider the theory, you need to get The Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter and read the corresponding canon that is used as a base for the theory.
However, you can think it is a dumb theory. There are plenty of theories floating around on the Forum that I find farfetched as well but I don't totally discount them.
How many, prior to PoA, would have scoffed and jeered at the idea of Scabbers being wizard??
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Bluenote1313 - Apr 5, 2004 8:07 am (#269 of 528)
Well said Denise. Just because we like the theory and defend it doesn't mean it will be true. Prior to Book 5, 90% of the people thought that Hagrid would be dead by now. Theory is theory....this one happens to have some circumstantial evidence to back it up...
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draco all the way - Apr 5, 2004 8:17 am (#270 of 528)
I am sorry to offend you all. I guess I was being a tad harsh. I tried, you know, to see it from your point of view but I just could'nt get it. Maybe this is one of those theories that I will never get. And I have read the Unofficial Guide once but I still did'nt get it. I realised when i read my post over again how arrogant I seemed. You are right the Scabber's theory was totally far fetched.And if that can come true perhaps this can too. Again I apoligise.
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Denise P. - Apr 5, 2004 8:43 am (#271 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
draco, no need...many people dislike this theory. Everyone embraces those theories they like and discounts those they don't, that is the nature of people.
I think that one thing that JKR has shown over and over is that things are not always what they seem and just when you think you have it figured out, she is going to turn what you think you know upside down and shake it really hard. That is one thing I just really love about this series.
Now, I am off to make my James is Lupin shirt
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Loopy Lupin - Apr 5, 2004 10:21 am (#272 of 528)
I'm afraid that I can't really get in line with this theory. I don't think its "dumb" but there are quite a few things here that JKR would have to really explain well for this to make sense. For me, the biggest obstacle to all of this is the very idea that James would just be more or less standing on the side lines all this time while his son is physically and mentally abused by the Dursleys not to mention everything that has happened up till now.
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Prefect Marcus - Apr 5, 2004 12:07 pm (#273 of 528)
"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Apr 5, 2004 12:09 pm
I agree 100%, Loopy. There are just too many places that it could go wrong.
So unless Murphy takes a holiday, I just can't see it.
Marcus
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Catherine - Apr 5, 2004 12:26 pm (#274 of 528)
Canon Seeker
I've proposed some "over the top" things myself, and it has been very entertaining to see how much discussion this thread generates, which I think is great. I have also not read Waters's book, which I plan to do, so that I can understand the theory from its source.
Nonetheless, there are some real holes here, most of which have been discussed at some length, so I will just say "me, too!" on those and proceed with my own thoughts.
I agree with those posters who say that there is "more" to Lupin than we have seen thus far. Very true! After OotP, I became convinced that Lupin is a legilimens--the scene in PoA where he stares intently at Sirius, and then hugs him made me think that he was practicing legilmency to see if Sirius was lying. This may account for him apparently "reading Harry's mind" and staring at Harry.
For those who seemed to think it was important that Remus seemed to know Harry, I think this is easily explained by Remus's relationship with Lily and James. He was one of James's best friends, a member of the Order of the Phoenix, and it wouldn't have been unusual for Remus to have seen Harry as a baby. Harry looks so much like James that Remus would have known him anywhere, even if he had never seen Harry before. In addition, he may have watched Harry from afar. Harry was under survellience the whole summer in OotP and was unaware of it until the night of the dementor attack. Who's to say that Dumbledore didn't have trustworthy wizards watching the area during Harry's childhood?
I think it is a stretch to say that a stag was "James's patronus." What was probably meant is that James transformed into a stag. He had seen James transform many times. That's why he was so shaken to see Harry's stag patronus--it would have been like seeing a ghost for him.
In the end, I have always believed that some important Switching Spell took place--the clues have been laid, and I think it will be important. I just don't think that Lupin and James switched.
Can't wait to find out how right or wrong we all are!
Cheers.
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Prefect Marcus - Apr 5, 2004 12:45 pm (#275 of 528)
"Anyone can cook"
Catherine Allen - "For those who seemed to think it was important that Remus seemed to know Harry, I think this is easily explained by Remus's relationship with Lily and James. He was one of James's best friends, a member of the Order of the Phoenix, and it wouldn't have been unusual for Remus to have seen Harry as a baby. Harry looks so much like James that Remus would have known him anywhere, even if he had never seen Harry before. In addition, he may have watched Harry from afar. Harry was under survellience the whole summer in OotP and was unaware of it until the night of the dementor attack. Who's to say that Dumbledore didn't have trustworthy wizards watching the area during Harry's childhood?"
It can be explained even easier than that. Harry is constantly being recognized by the WW as "Harry Potter", or as Draco puts it, "Scar-face". We are also told over and over again that Harry looks remarkablely like his father. There is also the little matter that Ron and Hermione were calling Harry by name when he had colapsed from the first Dementor encounter, and Professor Lupin was right there in the compartment when they did it.
So, we have a world-famous boy sporting a world-famous scar, whose friends are anxiously calling "Harry", who is the spitting image of Lupin's best friend, James Potter.
Would somebody please explain to me exactly why it should come as a shock that Lupin recognizes him?
Marcus
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hopping hessian - Apr 5, 2004 5:54 pm (#276 of 528)
"Extrodinary claims require extrordinary proof" -Bill Nye
Well, said. Lupin is no moron. Besides, people are different. Just because Lupin reacts to things differently than the norm (i.e. Harry's scar), or in what some think of as suspect (i.e. James' voice) doesn't mean that he is hiding something.
As for fleeing from Sybil, I'm rather found of the theory that she had a crush on him and he was trying to stay away. I have some evidence for this, but this isn't the right place to post it.
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draco all the way - Apr 5, 2004 9:31 pm (#277 of 528)
Oh hey hopping hessian, I know this isn't the right forum but I love Bill Nye The Science Guy, especially the songs! Isn't the show cancelled?
I still feel if Lupin was James he would of expressed his feelings a bit more. I mean he's missed out on most of Harry's childhood. Wouldn't he even inquire about that? Plus I like Lupin as the quiet guy he is. Like hopping said just because he reacts differently doesn't mean he's hiding something. It's just his nature. Plus he is a bit more attached to Harry's past then many other people therefore he has the right to act differently. Did that make any sense?
Go Bill Nye the Science Guy!
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hopping hessian - Apr 7, 2004 6:07 am (#278 of 528)
"Extrodinary claims require extrordinary proof" -Bill Nye
I still feel if Lupin was James he would of expressed his feelings a bit more. I mean he's missed out on most of Harry's childhood. Wouldn't he even inquire about that?
That's a very good point. I also can't picture James leaving his wife and baby when he knew they were in danger. James might have been many things, but he was no coward.
I love Bill Nye The Science Guy, especially the songs! Always happy to meet another Nyeite!
Isn't the show cancelled?
Sadly, yes
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Denise P. - Apr 29, 2004 6:14 am (#279 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
I still feel if Lupin was James he would of expressed his feelings a bit more. I mean he's missed out on most of Harry's childhood. Wouldn't he even inquire about that?
It was brought out on the Neville thread, when it was suggested that his parents illness is a ruse, that a parent would do what is necessary to keep a child safe and alive. Speaking as one, it would just about do me in but I would do anything I could to keep my children safe and alive.
We know James, for whatever reason was targeted. If it were known he is alive, even as Lupin, that would make him a target as well. He is doing what he can to keep his child alive.
Yes, it is tough but if this theory is correct, James is practicing tough lough. I don't think he enjoys this and I think he is hoping that Harry will understand why he did it and forgive him.
Tough love is just that, tough. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...and all those other cliches.
And once again, James did NOT leave his wife and child. He had no idea that Voldemort would be paying a housecall later that evening. If he had, there is NO WAY that he and Lupin would have switched.
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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Apr 29, 2004 6:44 am (#280 of 528)
Sometimes known as Kim.
Well, Denise, you didn't expect me not to respond?
My personal feelings for this theory aside, I can't get past Lupin's speech in the Shrieking Shack whenever this theory is floated out. There is nothing in that speech to suggest that he is anyone other than Lupin.
"This house"--Lupin looked miserably around the room,--"the tunnel that leads to it--they were built for my use."
"But I always managed to forget my guilty feelings every time we sat down to plan our next month's adventure. And I haven't changed..." Lupin's face had hardened, and there was self-disgust in his voice. "All this year, I have been battling with myself, wondering whether I should tell Dumbledore that Sirius was an Animagus. But I didn't do it. Why? Because I was too cowardly. It would have meant admitting that I'd betrayed his trust while I was at school, admitting that I'd led others along with me...and Dumbledore's trust has meant everything to me."
There are many passages from this scene I could use, but these two seem so clearly to reflect Lupin speaking in the first person and not James trying to imitate Lupin.
In addition to these examples, there is Lupin's exit from the school. If he were indeed James, I think it would have been much more difficult to go. Lupin was sad to go, but there was no indication that he(James) was leaving the son he'd been separated from for 12 years.
But as to what you said about tough love, I agree. I'm sure James would do anything to spare his child. Including fighting Voldemort to the death in Godric's Hollow. I realize that he didn't know Voldemort would be coming that night, but they were in hiding for a reason. He knew Voldemort was looking for them. James' family was in mortal danger and needed protection. I can't see him delegating that role to anyone else. Even Lupin.
Well, I'll stop now.
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Maollelujah - Apr 29, 2004 10:03 pm (#281 of 528)
It was brought out on the Neville thread, when it was suggested that his parents illness is a ruse, that a parent would do what is necessary to keep a child safe and alive. Speaking as one, it would just about do me in but I would do anything I could to keep my children safe and alive.
But Lupin/James has done really very little to ensure his child's safety. If Harry's safety was his number one priority, he wouldn't have resigned from Hogworts and he surely would have showed up around Hogwarts during GoF, after reading the signs similar to what Sirius had done.
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draco all the way - Apr 30, 2004 12:18 am (#282 of 528)
Maollelujah, excellant point! If lupin was James he would of at least hung around at Hogsmeade during GoF!
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Denise P. - Apr 30, 2004 5:51 am (#283 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
If your life and the life of your child depended upon you keeping the secret safe, that you were alive, you would do anything needed.
But Lupin/James has done really very little to ensure his child's safety. If Harry's safety was his number one priority, he wouldn't have resigned from Hogworts and he surely would have showed up around Hogwarts during GoF, after reading the signs similar to what Sirius had done.
How hard do you imagine it would be, as a parent, to stay away from your child, to not tell him the truth, to not protect him and want to hug on him? It would be nearly unbearable and such an incredible strain to be around him day by day and do nothing? By leaving Hogwarts, James/Lupin has ensured that he won't break the secret and jeopardize either himself or Harry.
After living as Lupin for so long, it is a survival mechanism to speak as Lupin, to tell things from Lupins point of view. People are capable of doing extraordinary things under extraordinary circumstances. Being unexpectedly trapped in the body of someone else, a werewolf no less, certainly qualifies as extraordinary. Add in there that some madman is trying to kill you, already killed your family and you are alive through sheer chance....I am truly amazed that Lupin/James is not a stark raving loon. The burden that he has had to carry in addition to the werewolf burden is unreal.
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haymoni - Apr 30, 2004 6:17 am (#284 of 528)
Wouldn't we have heard someplace that James was a werewolf?
I mean how can he be James, Lupin AND a werewolf?
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Denise P. - Apr 30, 2004 6:34 am (#285 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
:::sigh::: The problem that exists in this thread is that many of those who oppose it have never read the actual theory, the entire thing. It is contained with The Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter
James is NOT a werewolf, Lupin is
James and Lupin switched bodies and when Voldemort attacked
Lupin (in the body of James) was killed while James (in the body of Lupin) survived
Lupin's body, where James resides, is a werewolf.
James, in Lupin's body, has no choice in the matter and is bound by the physical restraints of Lupin's body
Lupin's physical body will change, doesn't matter who is residing within the body
Think of it similar to a cornea transplant. I may get the cornea of a brilliant artist but that will not make me a brilliant artist.
I realize a lot of people don't like this theory but really, check the book to get the FULL theory rather than the barebones theory that has been posted here on the thread.
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haymoni - Apr 30, 2004 9:53 am (#286 of 528)
You are absolutely right, Denise.
I can't understand it because I haven't read it but, like fan fiction, I won't read it.
I have a hard enough time trying to remember the difference between the books and the movies - through in some theories that are well-written and well-researched - I'll be a mess!
I need another JKR chat to clear away the questions!
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Loopy Lupin - Apr 30, 2004 11:51 am (#287 of 528)
I admit to not having read the theory from the Unofficial Guide, but I have been reading these new posts with interest. Nevertheless, my views on this matter remain unchanged from those expressed several posts back.
To put it as simply as possible, I fail to see how keeping this secret is of such paramount importance that Harry had to be condemned to 11 years at the hands of abusive relatives. This is not to mention "James/Lupin's" perpetual absence throughout most of Harry's wizarding life. I fail to see how the revelation of Lupin's "true identity" would put Harry in any more danger than he already has been during the course of this story.
Also, I can understand that James/Lupin would have to "keep up appearances" and act as though he were Lupin. However, what bothers me about that is that going into a detailed "recollection" of some of Lupin's experiences seems to exacerbate the lie.
I guess I still just have not seen an explanation that would justify what Harry has been put through in the name of keeping this secret.
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NYCNomad - Apr 30, 2004 12:14 pm (#288 of 528)
I must confess, The Ultimate Unofficial Guide has some good points, but halfway through and especially in the addition for OotP, I felt they were being a little rediculous(sp?). JKR says something once and they immediatly turn it into a running theme. She says that someone was wide eyed and all of a sudden her animagus form is a wide eyed frog. There were some very very good points in there. Things that I would have never caught myself and definitions that saved me a lot of time on the computer looking things up. But, also think about what is being said. So, that's my 2 knuts worth, sorry if I offended anyone.
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Loopy Lupin - Apr 30, 2004 12:20 pm (#289 of 528)
The Unofficial Guide is a good source and they have some good theories. But, at times, they do go a little overboard.
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Bluenote1313 - May 3, 2004 1:22 pm (#290 of 528)
Have they released the section for OotP for the Unofficial Guide yet? I am curious to see how they continued this theory into book 5.
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Prefect Marcus - May 3, 2004 1:31 pm (#291 of 528)
"Anyone can cook"
I saw the OoP section of the Unoffical Guide in a bookstore recently.
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NYCNomad - May 4, 2004 7:48 am (#292 of 528)
I have it, I've read it and I was honestly upset with it. I feel that they reushed to get it out and did a sloppy job with it. Things were not thought out. They made running bits at the first mention of things, and I felt they were spending more time saying their "sleuth-o-scope" or whatever it was was going off to various degrees. If you see it in the book store, read a bit of it before you take it home. If I did, I would have put it right back on the shelfs.
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Sherbie Lemon - May 4, 2004 9:38 am (#293 of 528)
Hear, Hear, NYCNomad! Thankfully I got if for Christmas; if I'd spent a dime on it myself I would be quite perturbed. I feel it is rushed as well. The original Ultimate Guide is pretty good, though like everyone has said, they read a lot into a little detail. Hey, I'm all for symbolism and hidden meanings, but gimme a break, some of that stuff is just ridiculous.
I do love this theory, though. I'm not saying I believe it, but I enjoy reading it and imagining what the outcome would be for poor Harry if it turned out to be true.
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DJ Evans - May 4, 2004 10:57 am (#294 of 528)
Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
I too have the OotP book and to me it's a waste of good paper. But, I did hear (no "actual" facts yet--just rumors) that they are planning on another book for the OotP book. But it will be around 2 years before it is out. They said they knew they had rush that book, but was wanting to get something out there in the market for book 5. Personally I think they should have waited. I mean I really liked the way the dealt with books 1-4 and expected the same out of their second book.
Sherbie, lucky you got it as a present--I spent my hard cold cash for it!!!
I can't see Lupin as James either, just as the Giant Squid is the Giant Squid, Lupin is Lupin and James is James.
Later days, Deb
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NYCNomad - May 4, 2004 12:40 pm (#295 of 528)
Thank goodness I'm not the only that felt that way. I do have to say they got a couple good things that I appreciated, but that was a severe waste. As far as James being Lupin, I am not counting that theory out as of yet. I have some good arguments for and against. But my best friend is a stout believer in it and I promised to back him on his if he would back me on mine, so.... Lupin is James!!!!
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Loopy Lupin - May 4, 2004 2:06 pm (#296 of 528)
I just want to throw in an additional 2 Knuts from me that I did think that the Oop unofficial guide was rushed and some things are just not there no matter how hard you read into them. In particular, many of their "running bits" are just coincidental word choices by JKR and not deliberate. Don't get me wrong, I fully understand that JKR is very deliberate in her word choice and their are plenty of things, names in particular, that have a many-layered meaning, but not to the degree implied by the guide.
Now, to get back on topic: No way does Remus=James! hehe
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Weeny Owl - May 13, 2004 11:59 pm (#297 of 528)
It's an interesting theory, but how would it work at the end of the series?
Harry defeats Voldie, then James/Lupin comes over and says, "Oh, by the way, I'm really your father." Harry is thrilled?
After everything Harry has gone through, I would think he would feel betrayed rather than happy. Perhaps James/Lupin couldn't be around him before the third year at Hogwarts, but what about after that? He could easily have shown some interest in Harry even if only as a friend of Harry's parents. As far as we know, there's been no communication between them, and while Lupin has no money, he could arrange to get a letter to Harry occasionally.
I can't see how such an ending would benefit the series, and to explain it might take more pages than it's worth considering everything else that's going to have to be explained.
The other reason I think Lupin is Lupin is that if he were actually James, I just don't see him being quite so pleasant to Snape. He might be able to pull it off, but it seems unlikely. Granted, James was supposed to have lost his big head, but Sirius and Lupin did say that while James stopped hexing everyone just for the fun of it, his relationship with Snape never really changed.
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Bluenote1313 - May 14, 2004 6:15 am (#298 of 528)
The Snape thing in very interesting but we are not sure what James feelings for Snape are at the end. In OotP we see how they treated each other as fifth years. But if you remember, James was not a prefect but ended up Head Boy by 7th year. Something in those two years changed to make everyone think he was good enough to be Head Boy. Maybe with this change came a change in attitude towards Snape. On the other hand, Snape is just the sort of guy (like Sirius) to hold a grudge for 15-20 years.
I just finished reading the 'hint' book for the OotP and I am disappointed. I did not know before I bought it that it was not the full analysis but only a rushed version of hint/clues in the book. They say they will be releasing a version much more like the books 1-4 analysis later this year. Hopefully that will of better use.
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Tomoé - May 14, 2004 12:45 pm (#299 of 528)
Back in business
'She started going out with him in seventh year,' said Lupin.
'Once James had deflated his head a bit,' said Sirius.
'And stopped hexing people just for the fun of it,' said Lupin.
'Even Snape?' said Harry
'Well,' said Lupin slowly, 'Snape was a special case. I mean, he never lost an opportunity to curse James so you couldn't really expect James to take that lying down, could you?'
'And my mum was OK with that?'
'She didn't know too much about it, to tell you the truth,' said Sirius. 'I mean, James didn't take Snape on dates with her and jinx him in front of her, did he?' (UK OoP ch.29 pp.593-594)
It do sounds like James and Snape were still hexing each other in the seventh year, when James and Lily were together, and were still at row when James died. Poor Harry is trapped in his parents unsolved quarrels, Snape on his father side and Petunia on her mother side.
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Kieran Burke - May 16, 2004 3:48 pm (#300 of 528)
I really hope James isn't Lupin because Remus is my favourite character so far. I think its the fact that not only is he such a great character but that he stays so calm all the time. I think he does have something to hide and I think we'll see just how good a wizard he really is in the up coming books, and I think he'll impress us. After all that's happened to him I hope he gets a relativly happy ending because he's suffered as much as Harry really, and I think he really deserves to get the DADA posistion back at Hogwarts.
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Lupin is really James Potter (Post 301 to 350)
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NYCNomad - May 19, 2004 7:54 am (#301 of 528)
There are some really great arguments here, which I have no answers for. My only thoughts are that there are so many very different things about Lupin, (besides that he's a wolf sometimes), that make me question him. He doesn't look at the scar, he doesn't mention the similarity of his and Lilys eyes, the lack of willingness for physical contact with him, (did Lupin ever physically contact Harry?) thing along that nature. so... Lupin=James
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Weeny Owl - May 19, 2004 8:47 am (#302 of 528)
Lupin doesn't look at Harry's scar that we know of. He may look at it, but if Harry isn't paying attention, then the readers won't be told it's happening.
Lupin seems to be arather reserved person, probably due to his condition and the reactions he's received all his life because of it. Even with all the drama in the Shrieking Shack, he seemed to keep his head and react more with cool logic when deciding what to do with Scabbers/Wormtail. I wouldn't think he would feel comfortable beeing so forward as to mention Harry and Lily's eyes. The same goes for physical contact.
Aside from any interpretations of Lupin's actions or non-actions, there are only two books left. JKR has quite a bit of main plot and sub-plots to explain. She said in an interview that she will get more into the backstory of the Marauders and that she will explain more about Voldemort's birth. There are just so many other things that are crucial to the ending of the series, and while it's possible that this theory is correct, I still don't see it as a viable part of the books.
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S.E. Jones - May 19, 2004 9:49 pm (#303 of 528)
Let it snow!
I think some of Lupin's reaction to Harry stems from the fact that he knew him and his parents prior to the AK backfiring. He is, as Weeny Owl said, a very reserved person, and with being more James's friend than Lily's, may have thought "my he looks like James" on several occasions but never said it aloud. Plus, he knew that Harry looked like James and had Lily's eyes because he saw him as a baby and so it isn't the shock to him that is to other people who've never seen Harry before but remember his parents. As for Lupin's actions/reactions, well James and Lily were Remus's friends and he's seeing their son suffer, of course he's going to be moved. When he started to reach for Harry's arm to comfort him on hearing that he hear's Lily's voice, he's probably feeling a great deal of sympathy for his friends' son. However, Harry didn't know that he knew the Potters and Lupin probably wanted to keep a certain teacher/student relationship, so he decided not to back off a bit. Being that the Marauders were, it seems the only people Lupin (being so reserved) ever truly bonded with, it isn't that surprising that he is more moved when Harry mentions Remus's dear dead friend James's voice. Just my two knuts on the situation....
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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - May 20, 2004 1:25 pm (#304 of 528)
Sometimes known as Kim.
And let's not forget what DD says at the end of OoTP:
I defy anyone who has watched you as I have--and I have watched you more closely than you can have imagined...
Although I think DD personally has watched over Harry I think he has had others watch him as well. I think Lupin, with his inability to find sustaining work among other things, would have been a perfect candidate to watch over Harry, to keep tabs on him. And Lupin, with his characteristic stoicism, could have been depended on not to interfere with the unpleasantness of Harry's childhood. As much as he would have disliked what he saw, he would have the restraint not to intercede on his behalf. And, if he has watched over Harry during his growing years, he would have nothing to be surprised about in his appearance.
Which, in my opinion, is another reason why Lupin is Lupin. I cannot see James, given the day in and day out taunts of Harry's childhood, able to refrain from easing his son's burden. I think if James really was Lupin, Dudley would have had a pig's tail long before Harry's 11th birthday.
Lastly, could you all have pity on a girl and put this thread to bed. The screen name says it all.... ; )
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Loopy Lupin - May 20, 2004 1:57 pm (#305 of 528)
Here, here.
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Verschwinden Sie - May 28, 2004 7:29 am (#306 of 528)
I'm all for putting this one to bed, especially since J.K. Rowling has said many times that Harry's parents are, unequivocally, dead and gone. She's consistently quashed and rejected any suggestion they might be alive in any way, shape, or form, and has said on many an occasion that we will never see them alive in the series.
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Loopy Lupin - May 28, 2004 9:19 am (#307 of 528)
I know that you can ask Kip to make a thread permanent. Could we ask him to archive a thread as well? (Or better yet banish it, never to return?)
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Verschwinden Sie - May 28, 2004 10:13 am (#308 of 528)
It's gotta be within his power to discontinue threads or freeze it so no one else can post, he says in the user agreement that he'll delete anything that breaks the rules, so we know he can do that... and he uses frozen threads to mark the different sections off in the forums. I say petition away. Hehehe... =)
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Denise P. - May 28, 2004 1:31 pm (#309 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Yes, a thread can be archived. An archived thread does not mean it is banished or will never return. And yes, any Host has the ability to freeze, move and delete a thread.
This theory, while scoffed at by many, has valid points. One can dislike a theory, everyone has some theory that they don't like. Disliking a theory is no reason to ban it or suggest it has no merit in having a thread.
We will never see James alive. It is a given. This theory supports the fact that we will never see James alive because if it were proven true, we would see Lupin, not James. That which is James is not just his physical body but also that which resides in a body. If a switching spell was done, yep...James can live on in a body not his own.
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timrew - May 28, 2004 4:12 pm (#310 of 528)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
If Lupin was really James.......
1) Why hasn't he revealed himself to Harry yet?
2) Why did he come out of the wand in the graveyard? He hasn't died, so his spirit should not appear.
3) Why did he save himself, and leave Lily and Harry to face 'Voldie' (sorry, JKR!)?
3) And surely a cool character like James would never have grown a moustache that looks like a caterpillar crawling across his upper lip?
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Weeny Owl - May 28, 2004 10:24 pm (#311 of 528)
Good grief, Tim, next time post a spew alert. (That IS spew and not S.P.E.W.)
Playing devil's advocate for a bit, James's body came out of the wand and apparently Lily had no idea her hubby hadn't actually died. Of course, if James is actually inhabiting Lupin's body, then eventually said body will die, and boy will James be in for it then!
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freshwater - May 29, 2004 8:57 am (#312 of 528)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
3) And surely a cool character like James would never have grown a moustache that looks like a caterpillar crawling across his upper lip?
Whoa, Tim! That's the most compelling argument I've heard so far against Lupin's body containing the soul of James Potter! LOL
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Diagon Nilly - May 29, 2004 11:27 am (#313 of 528)
Didn't JKR say somewhere on her site (or maybe an interview) that the James/Lupin theory wasn't true? I could be wrong. I know she dispelled the Snape-as-vampire myth...which I'm sure made Gina jump for joy the minute she saw it
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haymoni - May 29, 2004 11:30 am (#314 of 528)
I don't recall her dispelling the James/Lupin theory. I remember the Stubby Boardman/Regulus Black theory going up in smoke. That's about all I can recall.
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Kitoky - May 31, 2004 3:05 pm (#315 of 528)
So what you guys are improvising is that Lupin died instead of James?
There's like a body switch? Sorry if it seems stupid.
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Liz - May 31, 2004 9:08 pm (#316 of 528)
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I honestly think that Hagrid(keeper of Keys) got the key to Harry's vault through Dumbledore through James and Lily.
You're forgetting a major point. Lupin was suspected to be with the Dark Lord.(Why would James hand over his son to a Death Eater)
Beth
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 1, 2004 6:05 am (#317 of 528)
One would assume that both Sirius and James suspected Lupin of being the traitor. Unfortunately, its not necessarily so. The books only confirm that Sirius thought so.
Sirius's switch as secret keeper with Peter was apparently motivated by his thought that Lupin had betrayed them all. But, James may not have needed to be aware of the fact that Sirius switched with Peter as the Potter's secret keeper. You would think that James would have had to be somehow involved in such a switch or at least informed. But, of course, maybe part of the strategy was to keep even the Potters in the dark about the secret keeper's identity. Clearly, distrust was rampant at the time and even among MWPP.
Anyway, that's still a nice point Beth. Unfortunately, it doesn't put this theory to rest. Let's keep trying though.
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Liz - Jun 1, 2004 1:27 pm (#318 of 528)
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You know I never thought about that. Nice Reasoning.
Beth
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Maollelujah - Jun 1, 2004 4:26 pm (#319 of 528)
But, of course, maybe part of the strategy was to keep even the Potters in the dark about the secret keeper's identity. Clearly, distrust was rampant at the time and even among MWPP.
Didn't Sirius state that 'he persuaded Lily and James to switch to Peter...', so I doubt that the Potters didn't know who their secret keeper was.
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 1, 2004 6:28 pm (#320 of 528)
Ah, and me speaking again without my POA copy. (Which I am re-reading at the moment, but haven't gotten to that part). So, there's all the more reason to believe that everyone had suspected Lupin as the traitor.
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Liz - Jun 1, 2004 6:31 pm (#321 of 528)
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I am totaly lost.
Beth
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 1, 2004 6:58 pm (#322 of 528)
Um, well, your point earlier was essentially (correct me where I'm missing it) that James wouldn't agree to any body switch because Lupin was suspected of being a DE. I responded that only Sirius thought Lupin was the traitor. Then, Maollelujah corrected me by pointing out that Sirius talked James and Lily into switching to Peter. Thus, one might conclude that James and Lily, too, thought Lupin was the traitor in their midst and so we are back to wondering why James would turn his body over to the person he believed to be the traitor.
Don't know if this clears it up.
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S.E. Jones - Jun 1, 2004 8:42 pm (#323 of 528)
Let it snow!
Simple. He wouldn't.
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Mare - Jun 2, 2004 2:20 am (#324 of 528)
Unless they didn't really believe it was a Marauder after all and thought it was another order member...
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S.E. Jones - Jun 2, 2004 2:23 am (#325 of 528)
Let it snow!
So then all that about them thinking it was Lupin was just to lead the Order member off the trail so they could catch him? Okay, I think this theory is getting even more involved than the main plot that's already going on in the books. So did they or didn't they think it was Lupin?
My head hurts....
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Mare - Jun 2, 2004 2:31 am (#326 of 528)
Personally, I believe they did think it was Remus (And I'm never going to understand how he can just wave that away in the shrieking shack scene, maybe he isn't Lupin after all!)
Sirius at least did think it or he wouldn't have said so. Now for some reason I can see Lily doubting it, but I don't think she would edge James on to switch places with Remus.
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 2, 2004 6:08 am (#327 of 528)
maybe he isn't Lupin after all!-- Mare
Ooh. New thread. "Who is Lupin?"
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Mare - Jun 2, 2004 6:32 am (#328 of 528)
"Who is Lupin?"
O, You mean except for James, Crookshanks, Dumbledore and Lily's squib uncle twice removed?
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Catherine - Jun 2, 2004 2:45 pm (#329 of 528)
Canon Seeker
Don't forget the Giant Squid. Oops, wrong thread.....
I will continue to support the arguments which say that Lupin is Lupin, James is James, and the Giant Squid is...oops, wrong thread again!
Cheers!
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 2, 2004 4:29 pm (#330 of 528)
Cheers Catherine.
Fun aside, I am interested in any response to the observations that got us to this point: that is, if James, like Sirius, suspected Lupin was the traitor, why on earth would he do a body switch with Lupin? I bring it up again because I haven't heard the theory's supporters respond. (I'm sure there is a response; just haven't heard it yet.)
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Liz - Jun 2, 2004 5:56 pm (#331 of 528)
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How would you begin to do a body switch? Maybe it should be called a brain switch.
Beth
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 3, 2004 6:22 am (#332 of 528)
The would do it with magic.
Seriously, I guess its called a body switch because each person is keeping their own brain, but just inhabiting the body of another. Plus, body switch sounds less icky than brain switch. Too me, at least.
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Denise P. - Jun 3, 2004 6:37 am (#333 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
The authors of this theory put forth that a Switching Spell is the basis for the swap. We have heard about Switching Spells but it is not entirely clear what it does.
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mike miller - Jun 3, 2004 7:09 am (#334 of 528)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
I'm in the process of another re-read of the series and in GoF Professor McGonagall tells Neville not to tell any of the visiting students that he cannot even do a proper Switching Spell. Since they are still early in their forth year, I would assume that a Switching Spell should be mastered by most third year students. Based on this conclusion, I don't think a Switching Spell is a powerful enough spell to switch the souls of two people.
I guess it could be possible that a very powerful wizard could manage to use a reletively simple spell to accomplish a rather complicated end. Personally, I don't beleive the theory. Lupin is Lupin, James is James, the Giant Squid is just a squid and Dobby is just a House Elf (*Tips hat to Catherine*)
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Denise P. - Jun 3, 2004 7:19 am (#335 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Yep, there may be a level of the spell that is simple enough that even a third year can do it. Look at Transfiguration. The students start simple and work up to complex spells. It may be the same way with Switching Spells. Because we don't know anything about them other than one offhand comment by McGonnagal, it is very possible that a complex level of a Switching Spell is capable of switching consciences (spelling?) between people.
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Bluenote1313 - Jun 3, 2004 12:41 pm (#336 of 528)
In regards to the questions about James suspecting Lupin let me throw this out...maybe the switching spell was done to prove to James, by Lupin, that he was not the traitor. The theory relies on the fact the Switching Spell was done prior to the Fidelus Charm which meant even if Lupin was the traitor, the Potter's were not in hiding so it didn't matter. Then, while James was in Lupin's body, the spell was cast with Peter as the Secret Keeper on the suggestion of Sirius. But what was "James" supposed to say? If he questions this then he has to confess he (Lupin) and James perfomed the spell and Lily might not be too happy about that. So the spell goes on as planned. A few days later Lupin (who is really James) goes to Sirius thinking he is the Secret Keeper, as previously discussed, and asks where the Potter's are at. Sirius doesn't trust Lupin so he doesn't tell him, shortly afterwards "Lupin" in James' body is killed and James is stuck in Lupin's body having to live with the guilt of not being there. He suspects Sirius this whole time, until he sees Peter in the shack (hence the reaction to finding out his best friend was not the traitor)
There are alot of 'if's' in this theories I admit, but that doesn't mean its not fun.
Another point, I watched an A&E Biography about Rowling last night and she mentioned that she thought the main story line of the books was Harry trying find a father. We know DD is more grand-fatherly, Hagrid is the weird uncle, and Ron and the other Weasley's are like brothers. She made a point in the books the say the Sirius and James were like brothers, then in book 5 question if Sirius knew that Harry wasn't James. I took this as Sirius looking at Harry more like a brother and not a son. And she would not be so cruel as to kill off Harry's surrogate father in book 5. So who does that leave as the father figure? Mr Weasley, I don't think, at least not for Harry. Lockhart? Nope. Filch? Doubtful. So who is the only other male character to get significant time in the books? Lupin....
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 3, 2004 12:46 pm (#337 of 528)
The theory relies on the fact the Switching Spell was done prior to the Fidelus Charm which meant even if Lupin was the traitor, the Potter's were not in hiding so it didn't matter-- Blue Note
Ah, well, Lupin is still Lupin in my book, but I knew there was an explanation out there somewhere.
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Padfoot - Jun 3, 2004 1:02 pm (#338 of 528)
Edited by Jun 3, 2004 1:02 pm
Ok, so that explanation (of Bluenote1313) could be possible to how the switching of the two wizards came about. But what about now? Why would James/Lupin not say anything to anyone about the switch after all this time? There doesn't seem to be enough motivation to pretend to be someone else. Plus, if this theory were to become true, that would be horribly cruel to Harry. I just don't buy it.
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 3, 2004 2:02 pm (#339 of 528)
Well, truly there had better be a darn good explanation for going through with it all of this time, not to mention Lupin's complete absence from GoF.
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Dumbledore - Jun 3, 2004 2:06 pm (#340 of 528)
(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
What would Lupin's absence in GoF have to do with proving/disproving the Lupin/James theory? Are you saying that James in Lupin form may have been trying to distance himself from Harry while he was struggling through the Triwizard Tournament so as not to appear too fatherly and spill his secret?
Edit: Sorry if I was babbling!
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Bluenote1313 - Jun 4, 2004 5:04 am (#341 of 528)
Dumbledore...I think that is exactly why he is distancing himself in both GoF and OotP. He may have thought he was getting to close in PoA and at the end when turned in to the werewolf would have put the kids and his son in danger if not for Sirius being able to change in to a bigger animal. I think that is the reason for his absence for 13 years as well. He is a dangerous animal for a few days a month. Also, what if he knows that Harry is only protected for Voldy because he goes to Privet Drive every year, by revelaing himself he knows what Harry (and the Dursley's for that matter) will want to do once they know James is really alive. He had to weigh his own personal feelings over the safety of his son from the man who tried to kill him. Besides...as Lupin he is free to work against Voldy and his followers without the constant watch it is obvious James was under before his family was attacked. I think this all goes back to the comment Malfoy made at the end of CoS "your parents were meddlesome fools too" this indicates Voldy was after them for some other reason that the prophecy. What did they find out? Why were they targets?
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Denise P. - Jun 4, 2004 6:14 am (#342 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
One thing that people who dislike this theory keep going back to is that James (as Lupin) stayed away from his son and allowed him to be brought up in horrible conditions. The refrain is "What father would DO that to their child?"
Dumbledore didn't think Voldemort left, I suspect that James doesn't think that either. He knew for some reason, Voldemort wanted to kill both Harry and him. Everyone thinks he is dead now. He is free to work against Voldemort in relative safety.
It would be horribly hard and painful, incredibly difficult to sit back and not have contact with Harry and allow the things that have happened to him to occur. James is looking at the bigger picture. He is putting aside his own wants and needs AND those of Harry to focus on the larger needs. By laying low and not revealing himself, he is able to do more than if he is constantly running for his life. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (or the one) said a wise man with pointed ears once.
James has to weigh the damage Voldemort can do to the entire world against the possible hatred of his son when the truth is revealed and the judgement of those who don't know what he is sacrificing for them.
If this theory pans out, I think Harry would be angry but in the end, able to see the bigger picture too and forgive his father.
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draco all the way - Jun 4, 2004 9:34 pm (#343 of 528)
Good post! But, sadly, I'm still a disbeliever simply because one of the main themes of the books is overcoming death and grief. If James simply came back at the end of it all it would be too convienient and too fairy tale-ish. And if there's one thing that HP is not its a fairy tale!
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Padfoot - Jun 7, 2004 3:58 pm (#344 of 528)
I think that the HP world is rather fairy tale-ish. Most fairy tales have magical elements to them with some sort of moral backing. Now saying this, I don't think it means Lupin is anybody other than Lupin.
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draco all the way - Jun 8, 2004 2:05 am (#345 of 528)
I meant fairy tale as in the prince always defeats the witch and gets the princess and Disney. Harry Potter is a fantasy (no doubt) but it is darker and things don't always end up happily ever after. As illustrated in the last 2 books.But that's off topic, so I'll stop.
Lupin is Lupin, and James is dead- I think.
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Padfoot - Jun 8, 2004 2:32 pm (#346 of 528)
Lupin is Lupin, and James is dead- I think.
Totally agree 100% DATW!
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The PhantomOtaku - Jun 11, 2004 3:28 pm (#347 of 528)
I don't agree with this theory simply because it make James out to be coward. When the prophecy was foretold, it only mentions the child will be the one to defeat Voldemort, not the parents. Why would James sacrifice one of his best friends AND his wife to save himself when the world would have nothing to gain from it? It seems too selfish and cowardly to be something James would do.
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Denise P. - Jun 11, 2004 5:14 pm (#348 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Whoever said James sacrificed his wife and best friend? This switch was meant ONLY to expose the traitor, it was not meant to be permanent in any way. I seriously doubt that James would have ever agreed to the switch had he known of the events that were about to pass. He was not there to prevent the death of his wife and Lupin. What is selfish or cowardly about not being able to predict the future?
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Round Pink Spider - Jun 11, 2004 10:06 pm (#349 of 528)
Crazed Writer
I agree with you, Denise P. I think James and Lupin DID make the switch, either to catch the traitor who was shadowing the Potters or because it was desperately important that at least one Potter remain alive (Sirius said that Wormtail bringing Volde "the LAST Potter" would make everything OK).
By the way, there are some BIG, BIG clues in favor of the James/Lupin theory in the PoA movie! When Remus began to transform, Sirius pressed his hand to Remus' heart and said, "This heart is where you truly live. This flesh is only flesh!" Match this up with the end of the movie, when Sirius told Harry, "You can always find the ones you love in your heart." I think these were meant to be put together. Also, just before Remus lost control in the movie, he whimpered to Harry, "I'm not dead... I'm not dead..." That makes no sense at all if the speaker was really Remus Lupin.
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Ff3girl - Jun 11, 2004 11:04 pm (#350 of 528)
OK, FIRST OF ALL...
The quotes and ideas you're using are from the movie... I think most people here can agree that the movies are NOT canon... That quote from Sirius was actually a line that was stolen from Dumbledore.
"You think the dead we loved (by the way, "loved" is past tense)ever truly leave us? You think that we don't recall them more clearly than ever in times or great trouble? Your father is alive in you, Harry, and shows himself most plainly when you have need of him." -Prisoner of Azkaban, chapter 22, page 427 American ed.
One of the arguments for this theory is that the only reason they did this was to find the traitor... if they were trying to find the traitor, that would mean all the people involved in the switching would already know that a betrayal had happened and that Voldemort was already coming after them, and that the Potters were in mortal danger.
Besides that, I cannot see how switching bodies with a friend would help to learn new information. If the traitor wouldn't expose himself to Lupin in his own body, or James in his own body, why in the heck would switching bodies make any difference whatsoever?!
We all know that JKR has said that Lupin is her favorite character... so why would she make it so that we never actually met Lupin? I think this WOULD make James a coward since he would have already known that his family was in mortal danger.
JKR has also said that death is very final in her books, and that there are going to be miraculous resurrections.
Sorry if I came across as rude in this post... this theory makes me a little worked up... :-)
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There are some really great arguments here, which I have no answers for. My only thoughts are that there are so many very different things about Lupin, (besides that he's a wolf sometimes), that make me question him. He doesn't look at the scar, he doesn't mention the similarity of his and Lilys eyes, the lack of willingness for physical contact with him, (did Lupin ever physically contact Harry?) thing along that nature. so... Lupin=James
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Weeny Owl - May 19, 2004 8:47 am (#302 of 528)
Lupin doesn't look at Harry's scar that we know of. He may look at it, but if Harry isn't paying attention, then the readers won't be told it's happening.
Lupin seems to be arather reserved person, probably due to his condition and the reactions he's received all his life because of it. Even with all the drama in the Shrieking Shack, he seemed to keep his head and react more with cool logic when deciding what to do with Scabbers/Wormtail. I wouldn't think he would feel comfortable beeing so forward as to mention Harry and Lily's eyes. The same goes for physical contact.
Aside from any interpretations of Lupin's actions or non-actions, there are only two books left. JKR has quite a bit of main plot and sub-plots to explain. She said in an interview that she will get more into the backstory of the Marauders and that she will explain more about Voldemort's birth. There are just so many other things that are crucial to the ending of the series, and while it's possible that this theory is correct, I still don't see it as a viable part of the books.
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S.E. Jones - May 19, 2004 9:49 pm (#303 of 528)
Let it snow!
I think some of Lupin's reaction to Harry stems from the fact that he knew him and his parents prior to the AK backfiring. He is, as Weeny Owl said, a very reserved person, and with being more James's friend than Lily's, may have thought "my he looks like James" on several occasions but never said it aloud. Plus, he knew that Harry looked like James and had Lily's eyes because he saw him as a baby and so it isn't the shock to him that is to other people who've never seen Harry before but remember his parents. As for Lupin's actions/reactions, well James and Lily were Remus's friends and he's seeing their son suffer, of course he's going to be moved. When he started to reach for Harry's arm to comfort him on hearing that he hear's Lily's voice, he's probably feeling a great deal of sympathy for his friends' son. However, Harry didn't know that he knew the Potters and Lupin probably wanted to keep a certain teacher/student relationship, so he decided not to back off a bit. Being that the Marauders were, it seems the only people Lupin (being so reserved) ever truly bonded with, it isn't that surprising that he is more moved when Harry mentions Remus's dear dead friend James's voice. Just my two knuts on the situation....
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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - May 20, 2004 1:25 pm (#304 of 528)
Sometimes known as Kim.
And let's not forget what DD says at the end of OoTP:
I defy anyone who has watched you as I have--and I have watched you more closely than you can have imagined...
Although I think DD personally has watched over Harry I think he has had others watch him as well. I think Lupin, with his inability to find sustaining work among other things, would have been a perfect candidate to watch over Harry, to keep tabs on him. And Lupin, with his characteristic stoicism, could have been depended on not to interfere with the unpleasantness of Harry's childhood. As much as he would have disliked what he saw, he would have the restraint not to intercede on his behalf. And, if he has watched over Harry during his growing years, he would have nothing to be surprised about in his appearance.
Which, in my opinion, is another reason why Lupin is Lupin. I cannot see James, given the day in and day out taunts of Harry's childhood, able to refrain from easing his son's burden. I think if James really was Lupin, Dudley would have had a pig's tail long before Harry's 11th birthday.
Lastly, could you all have pity on a girl and put this thread to bed. The screen name says it all.... ; )
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Loopy Lupin - May 20, 2004 1:57 pm (#305 of 528)
Here, here.
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Verschwinden Sie - May 28, 2004 7:29 am (#306 of 528)
I'm all for putting this one to bed, especially since J.K. Rowling has said many times that Harry's parents are, unequivocally, dead and gone. She's consistently quashed and rejected any suggestion they might be alive in any way, shape, or form, and has said on many an occasion that we will never see them alive in the series.
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Loopy Lupin - May 28, 2004 9:19 am (#307 of 528)
I know that you can ask Kip to make a thread permanent. Could we ask him to archive a thread as well? (Or better yet banish it, never to return?)
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Verschwinden Sie - May 28, 2004 10:13 am (#308 of 528)
It's gotta be within his power to discontinue threads or freeze it so no one else can post, he says in the user agreement that he'll delete anything that breaks the rules, so we know he can do that... and he uses frozen threads to mark the different sections off in the forums. I say petition away. Hehehe... =)
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Denise P. - May 28, 2004 1:31 pm (#309 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Yes, a thread can be archived. An archived thread does not mean it is banished or will never return. And yes, any Host has the ability to freeze, move and delete a thread.
This theory, while scoffed at by many, has valid points. One can dislike a theory, everyone has some theory that they don't like. Disliking a theory is no reason to ban it or suggest it has no merit in having a thread.
We will never see James alive. It is a given. This theory supports the fact that we will never see James alive because if it were proven true, we would see Lupin, not James. That which is James is not just his physical body but also that which resides in a body. If a switching spell was done, yep...James can live on in a body not his own.
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timrew - May 28, 2004 4:12 pm (#310 of 528)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
If Lupin was really James.......
1) Why hasn't he revealed himself to Harry yet?
2) Why did he come out of the wand in the graveyard? He hasn't died, so his spirit should not appear.
3) Why did he save himself, and leave Lily and Harry to face 'Voldie' (sorry, JKR!)?
3) And surely a cool character like James would never have grown a moustache that looks like a caterpillar crawling across his upper lip?
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Weeny Owl - May 28, 2004 10:24 pm (#311 of 528)
Good grief, Tim, next time post a spew alert. (That IS spew and not S.P.E.W.)
Playing devil's advocate for a bit, James's body came out of the wand and apparently Lily had no idea her hubby hadn't actually died. Of course, if James is actually inhabiting Lupin's body, then eventually said body will die, and boy will James be in for it then!
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freshwater - May 29, 2004 8:57 am (#312 of 528)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
3) And surely a cool character like James would never have grown a moustache that looks like a caterpillar crawling across his upper lip?
Whoa, Tim! That's the most compelling argument I've heard so far against Lupin's body containing the soul of James Potter! LOL
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Diagon Nilly - May 29, 2004 11:27 am (#313 of 528)
Didn't JKR say somewhere on her site (or maybe an interview) that the James/Lupin theory wasn't true? I could be wrong. I know she dispelled the Snape-as-vampire myth...which I'm sure made Gina jump for joy the minute she saw it
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haymoni - May 29, 2004 11:30 am (#314 of 528)
I don't recall her dispelling the James/Lupin theory. I remember the Stubby Boardman/Regulus Black theory going up in smoke. That's about all I can recall.
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Kitoky - May 31, 2004 3:05 pm (#315 of 528)
So what you guys are improvising is that Lupin died instead of James?
There's like a body switch? Sorry if it seems stupid.
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Liz - May 31, 2004 9:08 pm (#316 of 528)
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I honestly think that Hagrid(keeper of Keys) got the key to Harry's vault through Dumbledore through James and Lily.
You're forgetting a major point. Lupin was suspected to be with the Dark Lord.(Why would James hand over his son to a Death Eater)
Beth
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 1, 2004 6:05 am (#317 of 528)
One would assume that both Sirius and James suspected Lupin of being the traitor. Unfortunately, its not necessarily so. The books only confirm that Sirius thought so.
Sirius's switch as secret keeper with Peter was apparently motivated by his thought that Lupin had betrayed them all. But, James may not have needed to be aware of the fact that Sirius switched with Peter as the Potter's secret keeper. You would think that James would have had to be somehow involved in such a switch or at least informed. But, of course, maybe part of the strategy was to keep even the Potters in the dark about the secret keeper's identity. Clearly, distrust was rampant at the time and even among MWPP.
Anyway, that's still a nice point Beth. Unfortunately, it doesn't put this theory to rest. Let's keep trying though.
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Liz - Jun 1, 2004 1:27 pm (#318 of 528)
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You know I never thought about that. Nice Reasoning.
Beth
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Maollelujah - Jun 1, 2004 4:26 pm (#319 of 528)
But, of course, maybe part of the strategy was to keep even the Potters in the dark about the secret keeper's identity. Clearly, distrust was rampant at the time and even among MWPP.
Didn't Sirius state that 'he persuaded Lily and James to switch to Peter...', so I doubt that the Potters didn't know who their secret keeper was.
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 1, 2004 6:28 pm (#320 of 528)
Ah, and me speaking again without my POA copy. (Which I am re-reading at the moment, but haven't gotten to that part). So, there's all the more reason to believe that everyone had suspected Lupin as the traitor.
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Liz - Jun 1, 2004 6:31 pm (#321 of 528)
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I am totaly lost.
Beth
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 1, 2004 6:58 pm (#322 of 528)
Um, well, your point earlier was essentially (correct me where I'm missing it) that James wouldn't agree to any body switch because Lupin was suspected of being a DE. I responded that only Sirius thought Lupin was the traitor. Then, Maollelujah corrected me by pointing out that Sirius talked James and Lily into switching to Peter. Thus, one might conclude that James and Lily, too, thought Lupin was the traitor in their midst and so we are back to wondering why James would turn his body over to the person he believed to be the traitor.
Don't know if this clears it up.
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S.E. Jones - Jun 1, 2004 8:42 pm (#323 of 528)
Let it snow!
Simple. He wouldn't.
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Mare - Jun 2, 2004 2:20 am (#324 of 528)
Unless they didn't really believe it was a Marauder after all and thought it was another order member...
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S.E. Jones - Jun 2, 2004 2:23 am (#325 of 528)
Let it snow!
So then all that about them thinking it was Lupin was just to lead the Order member off the trail so they could catch him? Okay, I think this theory is getting even more involved than the main plot that's already going on in the books. So did they or didn't they think it was Lupin?
My head hurts....
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Mare - Jun 2, 2004 2:31 am (#326 of 528)
Personally, I believe they did think it was Remus (And I'm never going to understand how he can just wave that away in the shrieking shack scene, maybe he isn't Lupin after all!)
Sirius at least did think it or he wouldn't have said so. Now for some reason I can see Lily doubting it, but I don't think she would edge James on to switch places with Remus.
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 2, 2004 6:08 am (#327 of 528)
maybe he isn't Lupin after all!-- Mare
Ooh. New thread. "Who is Lupin?"
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Mare - Jun 2, 2004 6:32 am (#328 of 528)
"Who is Lupin?"
O, You mean except for James, Crookshanks, Dumbledore and Lily's squib uncle twice removed?
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Catherine - Jun 2, 2004 2:45 pm (#329 of 528)
Canon Seeker
Don't forget the Giant Squid. Oops, wrong thread.....
I will continue to support the arguments which say that Lupin is Lupin, James is James, and the Giant Squid is...oops, wrong thread again!
Cheers!
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 2, 2004 4:29 pm (#330 of 528)
Cheers Catherine.
Fun aside, I am interested in any response to the observations that got us to this point: that is, if James, like Sirius, suspected Lupin was the traitor, why on earth would he do a body switch with Lupin? I bring it up again because I haven't heard the theory's supporters respond. (I'm sure there is a response; just haven't heard it yet.)
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Liz - Jun 2, 2004 5:56 pm (#331 of 528)
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How would you begin to do a body switch? Maybe it should be called a brain switch.
Beth
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 3, 2004 6:22 am (#332 of 528)
The would do it with magic.
Seriously, I guess its called a body switch because each person is keeping their own brain, but just inhabiting the body of another. Plus, body switch sounds less icky than brain switch. Too me, at least.
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Denise P. - Jun 3, 2004 6:37 am (#333 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
The authors of this theory put forth that a Switching Spell is the basis for the swap. We have heard about Switching Spells but it is not entirely clear what it does.
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mike miller - Jun 3, 2004 7:09 am (#334 of 528)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
I'm in the process of another re-read of the series and in GoF Professor McGonagall tells Neville not to tell any of the visiting students that he cannot even do a proper Switching Spell. Since they are still early in their forth year, I would assume that a Switching Spell should be mastered by most third year students. Based on this conclusion, I don't think a Switching Spell is a powerful enough spell to switch the souls of two people.
I guess it could be possible that a very powerful wizard could manage to use a reletively simple spell to accomplish a rather complicated end. Personally, I don't beleive the theory. Lupin is Lupin, James is James, the Giant Squid is just a squid and Dobby is just a House Elf (*Tips hat to Catherine*)
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Denise P. - Jun 3, 2004 7:19 am (#335 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Yep, there may be a level of the spell that is simple enough that even a third year can do it. Look at Transfiguration. The students start simple and work up to complex spells. It may be the same way with Switching Spells. Because we don't know anything about them other than one offhand comment by McGonnagal, it is very possible that a complex level of a Switching Spell is capable of switching consciences (spelling?) between people.
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Bluenote1313 - Jun 3, 2004 12:41 pm (#336 of 528)
In regards to the questions about James suspecting Lupin let me throw this out...maybe the switching spell was done to prove to James, by Lupin, that he was not the traitor. The theory relies on the fact the Switching Spell was done prior to the Fidelus Charm which meant even if Lupin was the traitor, the Potter's were not in hiding so it didn't matter. Then, while James was in Lupin's body, the spell was cast with Peter as the Secret Keeper on the suggestion of Sirius. But what was "James" supposed to say? If he questions this then he has to confess he (Lupin) and James perfomed the spell and Lily might not be too happy about that. So the spell goes on as planned. A few days later Lupin (who is really James) goes to Sirius thinking he is the Secret Keeper, as previously discussed, and asks where the Potter's are at. Sirius doesn't trust Lupin so he doesn't tell him, shortly afterwards "Lupin" in James' body is killed and James is stuck in Lupin's body having to live with the guilt of not being there. He suspects Sirius this whole time, until he sees Peter in the shack (hence the reaction to finding out his best friend was not the traitor)
There are alot of 'if's' in this theories I admit, but that doesn't mean its not fun.
Another point, I watched an A&E Biography about Rowling last night and she mentioned that she thought the main story line of the books was Harry trying find a father. We know DD is more grand-fatherly, Hagrid is the weird uncle, and Ron and the other Weasley's are like brothers. She made a point in the books the say the Sirius and James were like brothers, then in book 5 question if Sirius knew that Harry wasn't James. I took this as Sirius looking at Harry more like a brother and not a son. And she would not be so cruel as to kill off Harry's surrogate father in book 5. So who does that leave as the father figure? Mr Weasley, I don't think, at least not for Harry. Lockhart? Nope. Filch? Doubtful. So who is the only other male character to get significant time in the books? Lupin....
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 3, 2004 12:46 pm (#337 of 528)
The theory relies on the fact the Switching Spell was done prior to the Fidelus Charm which meant even if Lupin was the traitor, the Potter's were not in hiding so it didn't matter-- Blue Note
Ah, well, Lupin is still Lupin in my book, but I knew there was an explanation out there somewhere.
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Padfoot - Jun 3, 2004 1:02 pm (#338 of 528)
Edited by Jun 3, 2004 1:02 pm
Ok, so that explanation (of Bluenote1313) could be possible to how the switching of the two wizards came about. But what about now? Why would James/Lupin not say anything to anyone about the switch after all this time? There doesn't seem to be enough motivation to pretend to be someone else. Plus, if this theory were to become true, that would be horribly cruel to Harry. I just don't buy it.
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 3, 2004 2:02 pm (#339 of 528)
Well, truly there had better be a darn good explanation for going through with it all of this time, not to mention Lupin's complete absence from GoF.
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Dumbledore - Jun 3, 2004 2:06 pm (#340 of 528)
(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
What would Lupin's absence in GoF have to do with proving/disproving the Lupin/James theory? Are you saying that James in Lupin form may have been trying to distance himself from Harry while he was struggling through the Triwizard Tournament so as not to appear too fatherly and spill his secret?
Edit: Sorry if I was babbling!
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Bluenote1313 - Jun 4, 2004 5:04 am (#341 of 528)
Dumbledore...I think that is exactly why he is distancing himself in both GoF and OotP. He may have thought he was getting to close in PoA and at the end when turned in to the werewolf would have put the kids and his son in danger if not for Sirius being able to change in to a bigger animal. I think that is the reason for his absence for 13 years as well. He is a dangerous animal for a few days a month. Also, what if he knows that Harry is only protected for Voldy because he goes to Privet Drive every year, by revelaing himself he knows what Harry (and the Dursley's for that matter) will want to do once they know James is really alive. He had to weigh his own personal feelings over the safety of his son from the man who tried to kill him. Besides...as Lupin he is free to work against Voldy and his followers without the constant watch it is obvious James was under before his family was attacked. I think this all goes back to the comment Malfoy made at the end of CoS "your parents were meddlesome fools too" this indicates Voldy was after them for some other reason that the prophecy. What did they find out? Why were they targets?
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Denise P. - Jun 4, 2004 6:14 am (#342 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
One thing that people who dislike this theory keep going back to is that James (as Lupin) stayed away from his son and allowed him to be brought up in horrible conditions. The refrain is "What father would DO that to their child?"
Dumbledore didn't think Voldemort left, I suspect that James doesn't think that either. He knew for some reason, Voldemort wanted to kill both Harry and him. Everyone thinks he is dead now. He is free to work against Voldemort in relative safety.
It would be horribly hard and painful, incredibly difficult to sit back and not have contact with Harry and allow the things that have happened to him to occur. James is looking at the bigger picture. He is putting aside his own wants and needs AND those of Harry to focus on the larger needs. By laying low and not revealing himself, he is able to do more than if he is constantly running for his life. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (or the one) said a wise man with pointed ears once.
James has to weigh the damage Voldemort can do to the entire world against the possible hatred of his son when the truth is revealed and the judgement of those who don't know what he is sacrificing for them.
If this theory pans out, I think Harry would be angry but in the end, able to see the bigger picture too and forgive his father.
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draco all the way - Jun 4, 2004 9:34 pm (#343 of 528)
Good post! But, sadly, I'm still a disbeliever simply because one of the main themes of the books is overcoming death and grief. If James simply came back at the end of it all it would be too convienient and too fairy tale-ish. And if there's one thing that HP is not its a fairy tale!
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Padfoot - Jun 7, 2004 3:58 pm (#344 of 528)
I think that the HP world is rather fairy tale-ish. Most fairy tales have magical elements to them with some sort of moral backing. Now saying this, I don't think it means Lupin is anybody other than Lupin.
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draco all the way - Jun 8, 2004 2:05 am (#345 of 528)
I meant fairy tale as in the prince always defeats the witch and gets the princess and Disney. Harry Potter is a fantasy (no doubt) but it is darker and things don't always end up happily ever after. As illustrated in the last 2 books.But that's off topic, so I'll stop.
Lupin is Lupin, and James is dead- I think.
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Padfoot - Jun 8, 2004 2:32 pm (#346 of 528)
Lupin is Lupin, and James is dead- I think.
Totally agree 100% DATW!
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The PhantomOtaku - Jun 11, 2004 3:28 pm (#347 of 528)
I don't agree with this theory simply because it make James out to be coward. When the prophecy was foretold, it only mentions the child will be the one to defeat Voldemort, not the parents. Why would James sacrifice one of his best friends AND his wife to save himself when the world would have nothing to gain from it? It seems too selfish and cowardly to be something James would do.
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Denise P. - Jun 11, 2004 5:14 pm (#348 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Whoever said James sacrificed his wife and best friend? This switch was meant ONLY to expose the traitor, it was not meant to be permanent in any way. I seriously doubt that James would have ever agreed to the switch had he known of the events that were about to pass. He was not there to prevent the death of his wife and Lupin. What is selfish or cowardly about not being able to predict the future?
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Round Pink Spider - Jun 11, 2004 10:06 pm (#349 of 528)
Crazed Writer
I agree with you, Denise P. I think James and Lupin DID make the switch, either to catch the traitor who was shadowing the Potters or because it was desperately important that at least one Potter remain alive (Sirius said that Wormtail bringing Volde "the LAST Potter" would make everything OK).
By the way, there are some BIG, BIG clues in favor of the James/Lupin theory in the PoA movie! When Remus began to transform, Sirius pressed his hand to Remus' heart and said, "This heart is where you truly live. This flesh is only flesh!" Match this up with the end of the movie, when Sirius told Harry, "You can always find the ones you love in your heart." I think these were meant to be put together. Also, just before Remus lost control in the movie, he whimpered to Harry, "I'm not dead... I'm not dead..." That makes no sense at all if the speaker was really Remus Lupin.
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Ff3girl - Jun 11, 2004 11:04 pm (#350 of 528)
OK, FIRST OF ALL...
The quotes and ideas you're using are from the movie... I think most people here can agree that the movies are NOT canon... That quote from Sirius was actually a line that was stolen from Dumbledore.
"You think the dead we loved (by the way, "loved" is past tense)ever truly leave us? You think that we don't recall them more clearly than ever in times or great trouble? Your father is alive in you, Harry, and shows himself most plainly when you have need of him." -Prisoner of Azkaban, chapter 22, page 427 American ed.
One of the arguments for this theory is that the only reason they did this was to find the traitor... if they were trying to find the traitor, that would mean all the people involved in the switching would already know that a betrayal had happened and that Voldemort was already coming after them, and that the Potters were in mortal danger.
Besides that, I cannot see how switching bodies with a friend would help to learn new information. If the traitor wouldn't expose himself to Lupin in his own body, or James in his own body, why in the heck would switching bodies make any difference whatsoever?!
We all know that JKR has said that Lupin is her favorite character... so why would she make it so that we never actually met Lupin? I think this WOULD make James a coward since he would have already known that his family was in mortal danger.
JKR has also said that death is very final in her books, and that there are going to be miraculous resurrections.
Sorry if I came across as rude in this post... this theory makes me a little worked up... :-)
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Lupin is really James Potter (Post 351 to 400)
Elanor Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:13 pm
The PhantomOtaku - Jun 11, 2004 11:38 pm (#351 of 528)
Ff3girl, I think you mean that there are NOT going to be resurrections, right?? ^_^
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S.E. Jones - Jun 12, 2004 1:29 am (#352 of 528)
Let it snow!
Also, just before Remus lost control in the movie, he whimpered to Harry, "I'm not dead... I'm not dead..."
Actually, it isn't Remus talking. It's Ron saying "Bad idea... bad idea... bad idea..." in a small voice because Hermione was walking toward Lupin. Then she says, "Professor?" and he howls and she rushes back to Ron and Harry and you get the cut "Nice doggie..." line. Remus doesn't speak at all there during or after the transformation. I didn't catch that it was Ron after my first viewing but after subsequent viewings....
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Diagon Nilly - Jun 12, 2004 7:43 am (#353 of 528)
Also, how does one explain James coming out of Voldy's wand? That wouldn't be Lupin, as Lily says "your father is coming."
I agree that Lupin is Lupin, James is dead, and Timerw still in St. Mungos with the threstrals.
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Denise P. - Jun 12, 2004 7:46 am (#354 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
It is unclear if Lily knew that the switch occurred. If that is the case, she would refer to James as "your father" and even if she did know, she would maintain the illusion in order to keep James alive.
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Ff3girl - Jun 12, 2004 1:27 pm (#355 of 528)
PhantomOtaku: Ff3girl, I think you mean that there are NOT going to be resurrections, right?? ^_^
Yes, that is indeed what I meant... thanks!
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Liz Mann - Jun 12, 2004 2:58 pm (#356 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Towards the beginning of the thread I proposed some evidence for this theory, and it is still the main reason why I think this theory has some merit. I said:
Here's another piece of evidence for the theory (which I like, by the way): why did Lupin take the Marauder's Map from Harry when they came out of Snape's office? His excuse was, "I am astounded that you didn't hand it in. Particuarly after the last time a student left information about the castle lying around." Bit hypacritical isn't it, when he himself is concealing information that could lead to Sirius's capture? Besides, Sirius already knows the map, he wouldn't have to look at it. And Lupin didn't then go and give it to Dumbledore, did he?
You turn up in the map as who you are, not who you're pretending to be. Harry could have looked on the map and seen 'James Potter' written there and then he would know the truth. And did anybody notice he only gave him the map back WHEN HE WAS LEAVING AND WOULDN'T BE ON THE MAP ANYMORE??
Oooo! Oooo! I've just thought of something! If Lupin is James, and he does show up as that on that map, then Snape knows who he is! Remember, Lupin left the map on his table, Snape came in to give him his potion and saw it lying there and the dot representing Lupin running along the passage under the Whomping Willow! He would have seen the name on it! And, did you notice, when he entered the room in the Shrieking Shack, he had his wand pointed, not at Sirius, the supposed mass murderer, but at Lupin. And, he said:
"Lying on your desk was a certain map. One glance at it told me all I needed to know. I saw you running along this passageway and out of sight."
And again, why tie Lupin up when Sirius was supposed to be the mad and dangerous murderer?
OK, I know I'm probably reading too much into that bit from the Shrieking Shack but it could be seen that way.
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Round Pink Spider - Jun 12, 2004 5:17 pm (#357 of 528)
Crazed Writer
I like it! Hmm...very clever! Never thought of it from that angle.
By the way, did you notice that Harry is an excellent teacher, just like Lupin? And that Lupin admitted that he wasn't much of a potion-maker, like Harry?
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Ff3girl - Jun 12, 2004 10:52 pm (#358 of 528)
Actually, I did notice that Harry and Lupin both aren't excellent potion-makers. I also remember that James would've had to be a superb potions brewer if he was a student who always got top-grades and was head boy.
boom shaka laka :-P
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S.E. Jones - Jun 12, 2004 10:58 pm (#359 of 528)
Let it snow!
So what? Harry's not the best in the class at Charms and Lily's wand was great for Charms. Harry's not best in the class at Transfiguration but James's wand was great for Transfiguration and he was able to become an animgus by age 15 (not exactly a small feet, so I'm guess Transfiguration was a strong point of his). Harry has other strengths and weaknesses than his parents....
By the way, Round Pink Spider and Ff3girl, I don't think your points even hold water. If James was Lupin now, then he still would've had the abilities he had as a boy of Hogwarts age, i.e. he'd still be a great potions maker, etc. Unless you're saying Lupin (as in the real Lupin) is Harry's real father, which I think is a rumor that JKR has already stomped on.
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Ff3girl - Jun 12, 2004 11:04 pm (#360 of 528)
My sister just pointed out another idea...
When JKR uses something as a spell or anything as a plot device, she likes to give us a good example of it before it becomes an important part of the story, so that the readers can't complain, "hey! where did that come from?!"
An example would be that she introduced us to animagi in the first book, before this concept became nearly as important as it was in the 3rd book, and even re-introduced it in the third book before the big secret of everybody's identities was revealed.
In my opinion, it would be completely out of the blue for JKR to use a spell that has been once accidentally used by Neville to put two ears on a cactus (the switching spell) and then use the same spell to cause two people to switch souls when there has been no kind of indication that this spell is capable of doing that.
It seems like the concept of the switching spell has not been clearly laid out enough for the readers to be so important to the plot.
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Ff3girl - Jun 12, 2004 11:09 pm (#361 of 528)
S.E. Jones:
I do not think that James and Lupin ever switched bodies, that's the point I'm trying to argue. I was trying to negate pink spider's point about Lupin and Harry both not being great at potions-making, implying that they must somehow be related ... *cough cough*
You say that JKR has already stomped out this theory?? I of course completely disagree with this theory, and if you could show me or give me some kind of idea where she's said this, I would be really grateful.
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S.E. Jones - Jun 13, 2004 12:00 am (#362 of 528)
Let it snow!
Sorry for the confusion there Ff3girl.The theory JKR stomped out was that someone other than James was Harry's dad. She says on her website, "James is DEFINATELY Harry’s father. Doesn’t everybody Harry meets say ‘you look just like your father’?"
As to James simply being in Lupin's body, again, he'd have the same abilities (i.e. an "eye" for potions) as he did as a youngster if he were James, which Lupin doesn't have, so that in itself is a point against the Lupin=James theory, in my mind.
And, I really liked your post #360, Ff3girl. A very good point!
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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jun 13, 2004 7:03 am (#363 of 528)
Sometimes known as Kim.
Well, we all know where I stand on this issue : )
However, as much as I'd like to fall in with Ff3girl's argument (post 360), I think her conclusion falls short of her premise. We still have books 6 and 7 to read and that's plenty of time for JKR to expand on the Switching Spell. I agree wholeheartedly that JKR introduces these spells innocently enough before using them as a major plot device. I think she has touched on it enough to make the alert reader notice. I would be very surprised if it doesn't play a major role in one of the last two books.
I'm not suggesting that it will be used to explain a James is Lupin twist--I think JKR has made it explicitly clear that when one dies in these books one is dead, *weeps a bitter tear for Sirius*. JKR has too much respect for her story, the reader and I think Harry too, to stoop to such cheap theatrics. However, it will undoubtedly be used again. I feel sure of it. And I think it will be BIG.
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Liz Mann - Jun 13, 2004 7:14 am (#364 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
If James was Lupin now, then he still would've had the abilities he had as a boy of Hogwarts age, i.e. he'd still be a great potions maker, etc.
If James is trapped in Lupin's body, then clearly he's trying to keep it secret. It would be a bit suspicious if someone who was never really good at Potions suddenly is good at it. He has to pretend he can't do them so that people will believe he really is Lupin.
And as I said, what about the Snape pointing his wand at Lupin thing and the thing with the map?
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Diagon Nilly - Jun 13, 2004 7:23 am (#365 of 528)
If James is Lupin, how come he hasn't revealed himself to Harry yet? He'd missed out on 13 years of his son's life, and if it were me, I'd move heaven and earth to make up for lost time. I mean, won't Harry be just a little P.O.'d if/when he finds out: "I've had a dad ALL this time and you didn't tell me!" And I think Harry would understand if someone told him for his own safety he had to continue to stay with the Dursleys.
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Denise P. - Jun 13, 2004 7:27 am (#366 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
It goes back to the bigger picture. James can do much more by NOT revealing he is alive than he can do if he is in hiding, fearing for his life. He can do more to ensure Harry's safety as well. Yes, it is rotten and horrible that he can't tell Harry that he is alive. I am sure his first inclination and deepest wish is that he could tell Harry. James is taking the hard road and rather than be selfish by revealing himself, he is working for the greater good, that which may save more people. I really think that once it all comes out in the open and Harry (and everyone) is aware of the entire situation and circumstances, that he (Harry) is going to be more than willing to forgive his father. Of course he is going to be upset, who wouldn't be?
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Weeny Owl - Jun 13, 2004 10:49 am (#367 of 528)
It's an interesting theory, and it's believable in many ways, but what purpose would it actually serve for the series?
There's been a lot of discussion as to whether or not Wormtail and his silver hand will kill Lupin. That scenario seems more believable for Lupin than anything else. As much as I love Lupin, the only way I could see it work would be if Harry finds out Lupin is James and if Lupin is killed and Harry dies as well. His entire family would be together, along with Sirius.
If Lupin-as-James and Harry both live, then what? With all of the plotting, how many pages would it take JKR to make Lupin-as-James believable? How many pages would she need to devote to Harry's anger over being deceived all of his life? How many pages for him understanding the whys and wherefores. How many pages for a reconciliation?
She said we're going to learn more about Voldie's birth and the backstory of the Marauders. She's going to have to include things regarding Muggles noticing odd happenings. She's going to have to come to some conclusion regarding Grimmauld Place and Kreacher. There will have to be more deaths, some explanations of the futures of the known Death Eaters, and whatever goes on at Hogwarts each year. With so much left to tell, Lupin-as-James doesn't seem to add anything to the series besides confusion.
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Prefect Marcus - Jun 13, 2004 11:10 am (#368 of 528)
"Anyone can cook"
I have to agree with your assessment, Weeny Owl. What purpose would it actually serve in the series? My main objection to it, however, is that it is just too convoluted requiring too many twists and turns to work. It comes down to Occam's Razor. The right answer is generally the simpliest one.
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Weeny Owl - Jun 13, 2004 11:41 am (#369 of 528)
That's an excellent point, Marcus. It is too convoluted, and the explanations to have it make sense would detract from other aspects of the series.
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Liz Mann - Jun 13, 2004 1:59 pm (#370 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I think Harry would have to find out about Lupin before the finale, be really angry, then nearly lose him in the finale and be so relieved that he's alive that he forgets his anger. What the point would be, I don't know. But if J.K were to do it then clearly she would have a reason.
It may be a bit far-fetched, but she's done far-fetched things before and made them believable.
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draco all the way - Jun 14, 2004 4:39 am (#371 of 528)
A tad too far fetched. I think Ff3 girl's sister came up with a very good point. But I must commend you all on your excellant detective work, mostly Liz who by the way is EVERYWHERE! I standby my beliefs and bow to you superior sleuth work.
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Bluenote1313 - Jun 14, 2004 6:30 am (#372 of 528)
Keep in mind everyone...no one though that Scabbers was actually the person who betrayed the Potters before PoA. That didn't come out of the blue either but no one noticed all the hints about how old Scabbers was in the first two books...now that we have read books 3-4-5 it is easy to see...but until then we all had NO idea....
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 14, 2004 6:35 am (#373 of 528)
he was able to become an animgus by age 15 (not exactly a small feet,-- S.E. Jones
No small feet indeed. Probably about triple "E" wide I think. Hehe. I kill me.
Now, take me to St. Mungo's James and don't spare the thestrals!
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NYCNomad - Jun 14, 2004 7:10 am (#374 of 528)
Wow, I've been gone for a while and I've forgotten howmany brilliant minds and theories are in here. Along with all your help I've talked myself into a circle where I think that Lupin IS James, but I'm also fully convinced that James is really dead. There is to much evidence and to many arguments that can not be overlooked for both sides. So, just to throw an idea out there how's this?
Lupin and James DID do a switching spell, wich opened their minds to each other and even blended their minds a little and then they switched back. But they still maintained part of the other persons mind. So James really did die, but Lupin, while really Lupin, has part of his mind saying he's really James and is Harrys father and husband of the late Lily. But that he is aware of it, not mentally disturbed, but two minds, one body kinda thing.
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Liz Mann - Jun 14, 2004 11:52 am (#375 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Mostly Liz who by the way is EVERYWHERE!
What do you mean, I'm everywhere?
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Padfoot - Jun 14, 2004 2:37 pm (#376 of 528)
NYCNomad, like a mind-meld?
Liz, you are everywhere!
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Liz Mann - Jun 14, 2004 2:41 pm (#377 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
???
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Ff3girl - Jun 14, 2004 3:57 pm (#378 of 528)
NYCNomad: Lupin and James DID do a switching spell, wich opened their minds to each other and even blended their minds a little and then they switched back.
Wow! Now there's a theory that sounds like it would please both sides... a little too convenient, isn't it? I still think that they never switched... I just can't really see how it would serve the story at all(for full details, see my above posts ^_^).
My sister IS good at thinking up ideas, isn't she? Especially arguments for this theory. Lupin is her favorite character, so she gets a little... uhm... emotional over it.
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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jun 14, 2004 4:35 pm (#379 of 528)
Sometimes known as Kim.
NYCNomad--mind-meld, hmm? Don't know about anyone else, but I hear anything approaching mind-meld and I see Spock : )
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NYCNomad - Jun 15, 2004 5:39 am (#380 of 528)
Not a mind-meld per-say, but more of a mind blend. Where it's not where they activly wanted to share minds but was a side effect of a overzealous switching spell. Where they were mixed both mind and body for a short while. When all was fixed and people had their own ears, feet and minds back there were still some lingering memories.
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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jun 15, 2004 5:55 am (#381 of 528)
Sometimes known as Kim.
Mind-meld, mind blend. I still see
How cool is that smiley?!
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NYCNomad - Jun 15, 2004 6:15 am (#382 of 528)
It is a cool smiley. I don't really see my theory as being likely, just a possible solution that would fit both arguments, just the earth element virgo coming out in me.
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 15, 2004 6:47 am (#383 of 528)
What I'm about to write, I write with great trepidation as I believe I have made my feelings on this theory quite clear. But I do thoroughly enjoy arguing about it. Anyway, here goes.
One of the bigger points against the theory, IMHO, is the bit about why "Lupin/James" has stayed out of Harry's life so much and for so long. Has anyone suggested that this could be explained by the werewolf issue? The one time "Lupin/James" became a regular part of Harry's life, he slipped up with his potion and, but for Snuffles, may well have harmed Harry (and others). (Of course, this is not to mention that he doesn't regularly have access to the potion unless he's around Snape.) Clearly, "Lupin/James" felt he was too much of a danger to continue teaching, so perhaps he's kept his distance, at least in part, because of the danger that would possibly put Harry in?
To be clear, it goes against every grain for me to help this theory out, but I was just wondering if this was a point someone had made before?
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Liz Mann - Jun 15, 2004 7:05 am (#384 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
That is a good point, Loopy. Harry could hardly live with him, could he? That's almost certainly why the Potters chose Sirius to be Harry's guardian and not Lupin.
By the way, a while ago Ff3girl wrote: When JKR uses something as a spell or anything as a plot device, she likes to give us a good example of it before it becomes an important part of the story, so that the readers can't complain, "hey! where did that come from?!... In my opinion, it would be completely out of the blue for JKR to use a spell that has been once accidentally used by Neville to put two ears on a cactus (the switching spell) and then use the same spell to cause two people to switch souls when there has been no kind of indication that this spell is capable of doing that.
J.K has actually mentioned Switching Spells at least twice. One in the very first book ("...you'll lose all the points I got from Professor McGonagall for knowing about Switching Spells.") Then she brought it up again, having Neville accidently put his own ears on a cactus (). Quite often if she brings something up more than once, it'll be important at some point. So I think Switching Spells will have some importance, even if it's not for this.
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NYCNomad - Jun 15, 2004 7:09 am (#385 of 528)
Liz, I agree. My friend back in Chicago says he can site a Switching Spell refrence used in each of the 5 books. It is not clearly explaned but it's often refered to. It's has to be used at some point.
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Liz Mann - Jun 15, 2004 7:24 am (#386 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
All the books? *goes to check the Lexicon*
Hermione knew quite a bit about Switching Spells already in her first year, and gained some house points for it from McGonagall (SS9)
Neville wasn't particuarly adept at these, managing to switch his own ears onto a cactus during Transfiguration class (GF15)
Hermione, discussing ways to combat dragons: "Well, there are Switching Spells... but what's the point of Switching it? Unless you swrapped its fangs for wine gums or something that would make it less dangerous..." (GF20)
The definition of Switching Spells was on the OWL test Harry took in June 1996. (OP31)
I correct myself - there are four references to them in the books. But that's still only three of the five. Where were the references in CoS and PoA?
Hey, here's another question about the night in the Shrieking Shack. How come Snape stood there for so long under the Cloak before revealing himself? Possibly trying to work out why James Potter was on the map but not in the Shack?
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NYCNomad - Jun 15, 2004 7:30 am (#387 of 528)
I honestly don't recall them myself, that was my friend in Chicago. Maybe he was exagerrating, or perhaps he was just wrong. We exchange theories occasionally and either agree to support each others theories or tell eachother that the other in crazy. But he's very good with mythology and folk lore. He Guessed Sirius was an animagi and Lupin was a werewolf almost as soon as they were introduced and several other things.
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mike miller - Jun 15, 2004 8:15 am (#388 of 528)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Liz - Switching Spells were mentioned by McGonagall in GoF, just before the Beauxbatons flying carirage arrived, telling Neville not to admit to not being able to do a simple switching spell. (sorry I don't have the exact quote).
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Liz Mann - Jun 15, 2004 8:28 am (#389 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Oh yeah! So that's five references to it. And that one's not on the Lexicon!
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Weeny Owl - Jun 15, 2004 10:20 am (#390 of 528)
As for Lupin not being in contact with Harry because of being a werewolf, I don't see it as supporting this theory because he's a werewolf for just a few days each month.
Even if Lupin avoided being around people for one week out of the month, that still leaves three weeks, plus with Harry being at school for so long, they wouldn't see much of each other anyway. That doesn't mean Lupin couldn't write the occasional letter.
I think Lupin cares about Harry because he's a connection to James and Lily and for no other reason. I don't see him as avoiding Harry for the purpose of safety either because of being a werewolf or because of the Lupin-as-James theory.
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NYCNomad - Jun 15, 2004 10:29 am (#391 of 528)
I can't say I support the avoidance of Harry because he's a werewolf. The easy easy solution is just to cage himself up every month when it's that time. There are many ways to work around that. But, speaking of that, Lupin says that when he was bitten there was no cure. Does that mean that if someone got bitten now there is a cure? Then what about the guy in Mungo's? Oh no, I'm ranting again.
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Accio Book Six - Jun 15, 2004 10:36 am (#392 of 528)
Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them says that there is no cure yet for werewolves. When I read it, it confused me though because I immediately thought of when Lupin said that 'in those days there was no cure'. I think this is just a little mistake.
But to the issue of Lupin raising Harry... Lupin is a KNOWN werewolf, and we know of the prejudice there is towards werewolves. What do you think the reaction of the WW would be if the most famous person in their world, the boy who rid them of the Dark Lord, was being raised by a werewolf? I think that IF Lupin were a candidate to raise Harry, he would be thinking more along those lines when he decided that he couldn't take care of him rather than the actual LOGISTICS of a werewolf raising a child.
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Weeny Owl - Jun 15, 2004 10:50 am (#393 of 528)
No one is going to remove Harry from the Dursleys because Dumbledore wouldn't allow that. It's essential for Harry's protection.
It isn't whether or not Lupin would raise Harry, but what contact he has with Harry. The werewolf problem still has no bearing on staying in contact with Harry regardless of Lupin being Lupin or Lupin-as-James.
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Accio Book Six - Jun 15, 2004 10:56 am (#394 of 528)
I know that Harry has to live with a relative. I do NOT believe that James is in fact Lupin, but say he was... wouldn't the relative rule work there, too? So say if the switching spell couldn't be un-switched because James' body was killed before James could come back as Remus and turn it all right, James technically COULD have raised Harry, but WOULDN'T because Remus' body is a widely known werewolf.
I'm just playing Devil's advocate here...
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NYCNomad - Jun 15, 2004 11:01 am (#395 of 528)
But the relative has to be BLOOD of Lily. Relative is all good and great, but Vernon is useless, Aunt Marge is useless, Dudley perhaps, but Petunia is Lilys only blood relation. I like saying that, Vernon is useless.
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Weeny Owl - Jun 15, 2004 11:03 am (#396 of 528)
I don't think the relative rule would work because it's Lily's blood that matters.
Even if Lupin is James, I still don't think Dumbledore, if he knows, would have allowed Harry to stay with anyone but the Durleys because of the explanation in OotP about him calling home the place where his mother's blood dwells. (I don't have the exact quote.)
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 15, 2004 11:07 am (#397 of 528)
As for Lupin not being in contact with Harry because of being a werewolf, I don't see it as supporting this theory because he's a werewolf for just a few days each month. -- Weeny Owl
Well, that was probably the reasoning that made "Lupin/James" think that it would be ok to teach at Hogwarts, wasn't it? All the teachers knew about his status, Snape was bringing him the latest in "werewolf control" potions, and, after all, it was only a few days a month to worry about. Well, that plan worked out beautifully, didn't it? The problem would be if an emergency comes up (such as seeing HRH, Sirius, and Pettigrew on the map heading to the Whomping Willow) and requires action, you (as a werewolf) would risk making things much, much worse.
(Arrgh!!! I don't even believe in this theory and look at me! Did someone do a switching spell on me without telling me?)
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Accio Book Six - Jun 15, 2004 11:07 am (#398 of 528)
I take it all back. I forgot about the MOTHER's blood rule. But say it was the father's side that counts... if James IS Lupin, would he even count, not having his own blood anymore?
I think the reason that theorizing is so fun on this board is because ANYTHING is possible in Harry Potter.
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Weeny Owl - Jun 15, 2004 11:27 am (#399 of 528)
Lupin being a werewolf would need to be exceptionally careful regardless of whether or not he's actually related to Harry, but friend or father, there's still the question of why we never hear that he's even sent a letter to Harry.
I still believe that if it were more than just Harry being his friends' son, he would stay in contact. An occasional letter, a birthday card, a Christmas card... any of those would be possible without giving away anything.
I think Lupin cares for Harry but not because he's Harry's father in a werewolf body.
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S.E. Jones - Jun 15, 2004 11:06 pm (#400 of 528)
Let it snow!
Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them says that there is no cure yet for werewolves.
But doesn't that just hold true for the time of the writing of the book? Isn't it supposed to be an old school book? Doesn't it also say in another place something along the lines of "at the time of writing, there is a Werewolf Support Unit in the Beings Division...." which means that Harry could be reading the book 5 years later. Lupins says in PoA, "...but in those days there was no cure" alluding to there being a cure now....
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Ff3girl, I think you mean that there are NOT going to be resurrections, right?? ^_^
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S.E. Jones - Jun 12, 2004 1:29 am (#352 of 528)
Let it snow!
Also, just before Remus lost control in the movie, he whimpered to Harry, "I'm not dead... I'm not dead..."
Actually, it isn't Remus talking. It's Ron saying "Bad idea... bad idea... bad idea..." in a small voice because Hermione was walking toward Lupin. Then she says, "Professor?" and he howls and she rushes back to Ron and Harry and you get the cut "Nice doggie..." line. Remus doesn't speak at all there during or after the transformation. I didn't catch that it was Ron after my first viewing but after subsequent viewings....
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Diagon Nilly - Jun 12, 2004 7:43 am (#353 of 528)
Also, how does one explain James coming out of Voldy's wand? That wouldn't be Lupin, as Lily says "your father is coming."
I agree that Lupin is Lupin, James is dead, and Timerw still in St. Mungos with the threstrals.
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Denise P. - Jun 12, 2004 7:46 am (#354 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
It is unclear if Lily knew that the switch occurred. If that is the case, she would refer to James as "your father" and even if she did know, she would maintain the illusion in order to keep James alive.
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Ff3girl - Jun 12, 2004 1:27 pm (#355 of 528)
PhantomOtaku: Ff3girl, I think you mean that there are NOT going to be resurrections, right?? ^_^
Yes, that is indeed what I meant... thanks!
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Liz Mann - Jun 12, 2004 2:58 pm (#356 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Towards the beginning of the thread I proposed some evidence for this theory, and it is still the main reason why I think this theory has some merit. I said:
Here's another piece of evidence for the theory (which I like, by the way): why did Lupin take the Marauder's Map from Harry when they came out of Snape's office? His excuse was, "I am astounded that you didn't hand it in. Particuarly after the last time a student left information about the castle lying around." Bit hypacritical isn't it, when he himself is concealing information that could lead to Sirius's capture? Besides, Sirius already knows the map, he wouldn't have to look at it. And Lupin didn't then go and give it to Dumbledore, did he?
You turn up in the map as who you are, not who you're pretending to be. Harry could have looked on the map and seen 'James Potter' written there and then he would know the truth. And did anybody notice he only gave him the map back WHEN HE WAS LEAVING AND WOULDN'T BE ON THE MAP ANYMORE??
Oooo! Oooo! I've just thought of something! If Lupin is James, and he does show up as that on that map, then Snape knows who he is! Remember, Lupin left the map on his table, Snape came in to give him his potion and saw it lying there and the dot representing Lupin running along the passage under the Whomping Willow! He would have seen the name on it! And, did you notice, when he entered the room in the Shrieking Shack, he had his wand pointed, not at Sirius, the supposed mass murderer, but at Lupin. And, he said:
"Lying on your desk was a certain map. One glance at it told me all I needed to know. I saw you running along this passageway and out of sight."
And again, why tie Lupin up when Sirius was supposed to be the mad and dangerous murderer?
OK, I know I'm probably reading too much into that bit from the Shrieking Shack but it could be seen that way.
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Round Pink Spider - Jun 12, 2004 5:17 pm (#357 of 528)
Crazed Writer
I like it! Hmm...very clever! Never thought of it from that angle.
By the way, did you notice that Harry is an excellent teacher, just like Lupin? And that Lupin admitted that he wasn't much of a potion-maker, like Harry?
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Ff3girl - Jun 12, 2004 10:52 pm (#358 of 528)
Actually, I did notice that Harry and Lupin both aren't excellent potion-makers. I also remember that James would've had to be a superb potions brewer if he was a student who always got top-grades and was head boy.
boom shaka laka :-P
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S.E. Jones - Jun 12, 2004 10:58 pm (#359 of 528)
Let it snow!
So what? Harry's not the best in the class at Charms and Lily's wand was great for Charms. Harry's not best in the class at Transfiguration but James's wand was great for Transfiguration and he was able to become an animgus by age 15 (not exactly a small feet, so I'm guess Transfiguration was a strong point of his). Harry has other strengths and weaknesses than his parents....
By the way, Round Pink Spider and Ff3girl, I don't think your points even hold water. If James was Lupin now, then he still would've had the abilities he had as a boy of Hogwarts age, i.e. he'd still be a great potions maker, etc. Unless you're saying Lupin (as in the real Lupin) is Harry's real father, which I think is a rumor that JKR has already stomped on.
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Ff3girl - Jun 12, 2004 11:04 pm (#360 of 528)
My sister just pointed out another idea...
When JKR uses something as a spell or anything as a plot device, she likes to give us a good example of it before it becomes an important part of the story, so that the readers can't complain, "hey! where did that come from?!"
An example would be that she introduced us to animagi in the first book, before this concept became nearly as important as it was in the 3rd book, and even re-introduced it in the third book before the big secret of everybody's identities was revealed.
In my opinion, it would be completely out of the blue for JKR to use a spell that has been once accidentally used by Neville to put two ears on a cactus (the switching spell) and then use the same spell to cause two people to switch souls when there has been no kind of indication that this spell is capable of doing that.
It seems like the concept of the switching spell has not been clearly laid out enough for the readers to be so important to the plot.
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Ff3girl - Jun 12, 2004 11:09 pm (#361 of 528)
S.E. Jones:
I do not think that James and Lupin ever switched bodies, that's the point I'm trying to argue. I was trying to negate pink spider's point about Lupin and Harry both not being great at potions-making, implying that they must somehow be related ... *cough cough*
You say that JKR has already stomped out this theory?? I of course completely disagree with this theory, and if you could show me or give me some kind of idea where she's said this, I would be really grateful.
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S.E. Jones - Jun 13, 2004 12:00 am (#362 of 528)
Let it snow!
Sorry for the confusion there Ff3girl.The theory JKR stomped out was that someone other than James was Harry's dad. She says on her website, "James is DEFINATELY Harry’s father. Doesn’t everybody Harry meets say ‘you look just like your father’?"
As to James simply being in Lupin's body, again, he'd have the same abilities (i.e. an "eye" for potions) as he did as a youngster if he were James, which Lupin doesn't have, so that in itself is a point against the Lupin=James theory, in my mind.
And, I really liked your post #360, Ff3girl. A very good point!
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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jun 13, 2004 7:03 am (#363 of 528)
Sometimes known as Kim.
Well, we all know where I stand on this issue : )
However, as much as I'd like to fall in with Ff3girl's argument (post 360), I think her conclusion falls short of her premise. We still have books 6 and 7 to read and that's plenty of time for JKR to expand on the Switching Spell. I agree wholeheartedly that JKR introduces these spells innocently enough before using them as a major plot device. I think she has touched on it enough to make the alert reader notice. I would be very surprised if it doesn't play a major role in one of the last two books.
I'm not suggesting that it will be used to explain a James is Lupin twist--I think JKR has made it explicitly clear that when one dies in these books one is dead, *weeps a bitter tear for Sirius*. JKR has too much respect for her story, the reader and I think Harry too, to stoop to such cheap theatrics. However, it will undoubtedly be used again. I feel sure of it. And I think it will be BIG.
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Liz Mann - Jun 13, 2004 7:14 am (#364 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
If James was Lupin now, then he still would've had the abilities he had as a boy of Hogwarts age, i.e. he'd still be a great potions maker, etc.
If James is trapped in Lupin's body, then clearly he's trying to keep it secret. It would be a bit suspicious if someone who was never really good at Potions suddenly is good at it. He has to pretend he can't do them so that people will believe he really is Lupin.
And as I said, what about the Snape pointing his wand at Lupin thing and the thing with the map?
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Diagon Nilly - Jun 13, 2004 7:23 am (#365 of 528)
If James is Lupin, how come he hasn't revealed himself to Harry yet? He'd missed out on 13 years of his son's life, and if it were me, I'd move heaven and earth to make up for lost time. I mean, won't Harry be just a little P.O.'d if/when he finds out: "I've had a dad ALL this time and you didn't tell me!" And I think Harry would understand if someone told him for his own safety he had to continue to stay with the Dursleys.
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Denise P. - Jun 13, 2004 7:27 am (#366 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
It goes back to the bigger picture. James can do much more by NOT revealing he is alive than he can do if he is in hiding, fearing for his life. He can do more to ensure Harry's safety as well. Yes, it is rotten and horrible that he can't tell Harry that he is alive. I am sure his first inclination and deepest wish is that he could tell Harry. James is taking the hard road and rather than be selfish by revealing himself, he is working for the greater good, that which may save more people. I really think that once it all comes out in the open and Harry (and everyone) is aware of the entire situation and circumstances, that he (Harry) is going to be more than willing to forgive his father. Of course he is going to be upset, who wouldn't be?
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Weeny Owl - Jun 13, 2004 10:49 am (#367 of 528)
It's an interesting theory, and it's believable in many ways, but what purpose would it actually serve for the series?
There's been a lot of discussion as to whether or not Wormtail and his silver hand will kill Lupin. That scenario seems more believable for Lupin than anything else. As much as I love Lupin, the only way I could see it work would be if Harry finds out Lupin is James and if Lupin is killed and Harry dies as well. His entire family would be together, along with Sirius.
If Lupin-as-James and Harry both live, then what? With all of the plotting, how many pages would it take JKR to make Lupin-as-James believable? How many pages would she need to devote to Harry's anger over being deceived all of his life? How many pages for him understanding the whys and wherefores. How many pages for a reconciliation?
She said we're going to learn more about Voldie's birth and the backstory of the Marauders. She's going to have to include things regarding Muggles noticing odd happenings. She's going to have to come to some conclusion regarding Grimmauld Place and Kreacher. There will have to be more deaths, some explanations of the futures of the known Death Eaters, and whatever goes on at Hogwarts each year. With so much left to tell, Lupin-as-James doesn't seem to add anything to the series besides confusion.
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Prefect Marcus - Jun 13, 2004 11:10 am (#368 of 528)
"Anyone can cook"
I have to agree with your assessment, Weeny Owl. What purpose would it actually serve in the series? My main objection to it, however, is that it is just too convoluted requiring too many twists and turns to work. It comes down to Occam's Razor. The right answer is generally the simpliest one.
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Weeny Owl - Jun 13, 2004 11:41 am (#369 of 528)
That's an excellent point, Marcus. It is too convoluted, and the explanations to have it make sense would detract from other aspects of the series.
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Liz Mann - Jun 13, 2004 1:59 pm (#370 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I think Harry would have to find out about Lupin before the finale, be really angry, then nearly lose him in the finale and be so relieved that he's alive that he forgets his anger. What the point would be, I don't know. But if J.K were to do it then clearly she would have a reason.
It may be a bit far-fetched, but she's done far-fetched things before and made them believable.
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draco all the way - Jun 14, 2004 4:39 am (#371 of 528)
A tad too far fetched. I think Ff3 girl's sister came up with a very good point. But I must commend you all on your excellant detective work, mostly Liz who by the way is EVERYWHERE! I standby my beliefs and bow to you superior sleuth work.
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Bluenote1313 - Jun 14, 2004 6:30 am (#372 of 528)
Keep in mind everyone...no one though that Scabbers was actually the person who betrayed the Potters before PoA. That didn't come out of the blue either but no one noticed all the hints about how old Scabbers was in the first two books...now that we have read books 3-4-5 it is easy to see...but until then we all had NO idea....
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 14, 2004 6:35 am (#373 of 528)
he was able to become an animgus by age 15 (not exactly a small feet,-- S.E. Jones
No small feet indeed. Probably about triple "E" wide I think. Hehe. I kill me.
Now, take me to St. Mungo's James and don't spare the thestrals!
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NYCNomad - Jun 14, 2004 7:10 am (#374 of 528)
Wow, I've been gone for a while and I've forgotten howmany brilliant minds and theories are in here. Along with all your help I've talked myself into a circle where I think that Lupin IS James, but I'm also fully convinced that James is really dead. There is to much evidence and to many arguments that can not be overlooked for both sides. So, just to throw an idea out there how's this?
Lupin and James DID do a switching spell, wich opened their minds to each other and even blended their minds a little and then they switched back. But they still maintained part of the other persons mind. So James really did die, but Lupin, while really Lupin, has part of his mind saying he's really James and is Harrys father and husband of the late Lily. But that he is aware of it, not mentally disturbed, but two minds, one body kinda thing.
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Liz Mann - Jun 14, 2004 11:52 am (#375 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Mostly Liz who by the way is EVERYWHERE!
What do you mean, I'm everywhere?
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Padfoot - Jun 14, 2004 2:37 pm (#376 of 528)
NYCNomad, like a mind-meld?
Liz, you are everywhere!
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Liz Mann - Jun 14, 2004 2:41 pm (#377 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
???
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Ff3girl - Jun 14, 2004 3:57 pm (#378 of 528)
NYCNomad: Lupin and James DID do a switching spell, wich opened their minds to each other and even blended their minds a little and then they switched back.
Wow! Now there's a theory that sounds like it would please both sides... a little too convenient, isn't it? I still think that they never switched... I just can't really see how it would serve the story at all(for full details, see my above posts ^_^).
My sister IS good at thinking up ideas, isn't she? Especially arguments for this theory. Lupin is her favorite character, so she gets a little... uhm... emotional over it.
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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jun 14, 2004 4:35 pm (#379 of 528)
Sometimes known as Kim.
NYCNomad--mind-meld, hmm? Don't know about anyone else, but I hear anything approaching mind-meld and I see Spock : )
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NYCNomad - Jun 15, 2004 5:39 am (#380 of 528)
Not a mind-meld per-say, but more of a mind blend. Where it's not where they activly wanted to share minds but was a side effect of a overzealous switching spell. Where they were mixed both mind and body for a short while. When all was fixed and people had their own ears, feet and minds back there were still some lingering memories.
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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jun 15, 2004 5:55 am (#381 of 528)
Sometimes known as Kim.
Mind-meld, mind blend. I still see
How cool is that smiley?!
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NYCNomad - Jun 15, 2004 6:15 am (#382 of 528)
It is a cool smiley. I don't really see my theory as being likely, just a possible solution that would fit both arguments, just the earth element virgo coming out in me.
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 15, 2004 6:47 am (#383 of 528)
What I'm about to write, I write with great trepidation as I believe I have made my feelings on this theory quite clear. But I do thoroughly enjoy arguing about it. Anyway, here goes.
One of the bigger points against the theory, IMHO, is the bit about why "Lupin/James" has stayed out of Harry's life so much and for so long. Has anyone suggested that this could be explained by the werewolf issue? The one time "Lupin/James" became a regular part of Harry's life, he slipped up with his potion and, but for Snuffles, may well have harmed Harry (and others). (Of course, this is not to mention that he doesn't regularly have access to the potion unless he's around Snape.) Clearly, "Lupin/James" felt he was too much of a danger to continue teaching, so perhaps he's kept his distance, at least in part, because of the danger that would possibly put Harry in?
To be clear, it goes against every grain for me to help this theory out, but I was just wondering if this was a point someone had made before?
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Liz Mann - Jun 15, 2004 7:05 am (#384 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
That is a good point, Loopy. Harry could hardly live with him, could he? That's almost certainly why the Potters chose Sirius to be Harry's guardian and not Lupin.
By the way, a while ago Ff3girl wrote: When JKR uses something as a spell or anything as a plot device, she likes to give us a good example of it before it becomes an important part of the story, so that the readers can't complain, "hey! where did that come from?!... In my opinion, it would be completely out of the blue for JKR to use a spell that has been once accidentally used by Neville to put two ears on a cactus (the switching spell) and then use the same spell to cause two people to switch souls when there has been no kind of indication that this spell is capable of doing that.
J.K has actually mentioned Switching Spells at least twice. One in the very first book ("...you'll lose all the points I got from Professor McGonagall for knowing about Switching Spells.") Then she brought it up again, having Neville accidently put his own ears on a cactus (). Quite often if she brings something up more than once, it'll be important at some point. So I think Switching Spells will have some importance, even if it's not for this.
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NYCNomad - Jun 15, 2004 7:09 am (#385 of 528)
Liz, I agree. My friend back in Chicago says he can site a Switching Spell refrence used in each of the 5 books. It is not clearly explaned but it's often refered to. It's has to be used at some point.
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Liz Mann - Jun 15, 2004 7:24 am (#386 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
All the books? *goes to check the Lexicon*
Hermione knew quite a bit about Switching Spells already in her first year, and gained some house points for it from McGonagall (SS9)
Neville wasn't particuarly adept at these, managing to switch his own ears onto a cactus during Transfiguration class (GF15)
Hermione, discussing ways to combat dragons: "Well, there are Switching Spells... but what's the point of Switching it? Unless you swrapped its fangs for wine gums or something that would make it less dangerous..." (GF20)
The definition of Switching Spells was on the OWL test Harry took in June 1996. (OP31)
I correct myself - there are four references to them in the books. But that's still only three of the five. Where were the references in CoS and PoA?
Hey, here's another question about the night in the Shrieking Shack. How come Snape stood there for so long under the Cloak before revealing himself? Possibly trying to work out why James Potter was on the map but not in the Shack?
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NYCNomad - Jun 15, 2004 7:30 am (#387 of 528)
I honestly don't recall them myself, that was my friend in Chicago. Maybe he was exagerrating, or perhaps he was just wrong. We exchange theories occasionally and either agree to support each others theories or tell eachother that the other in crazy. But he's very good with mythology and folk lore. He Guessed Sirius was an animagi and Lupin was a werewolf almost as soon as they were introduced and several other things.
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mike miller - Jun 15, 2004 8:15 am (#388 of 528)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Liz - Switching Spells were mentioned by McGonagall in GoF, just before the Beauxbatons flying carirage arrived, telling Neville not to admit to not being able to do a simple switching spell. (sorry I don't have the exact quote).
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Liz Mann - Jun 15, 2004 8:28 am (#389 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Oh yeah! So that's five references to it. And that one's not on the Lexicon!
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Weeny Owl - Jun 15, 2004 10:20 am (#390 of 528)
As for Lupin not being in contact with Harry because of being a werewolf, I don't see it as supporting this theory because he's a werewolf for just a few days each month.
Even if Lupin avoided being around people for one week out of the month, that still leaves three weeks, plus with Harry being at school for so long, they wouldn't see much of each other anyway. That doesn't mean Lupin couldn't write the occasional letter.
I think Lupin cares about Harry because he's a connection to James and Lily and for no other reason. I don't see him as avoiding Harry for the purpose of safety either because of being a werewolf or because of the Lupin-as-James theory.
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NYCNomad - Jun 15, 2004 10:29 am (#391 of 528)
I can't say I support the avoidance of Harry because he's a werewolf. The easy easy solution is just to cage himself up every month when it's that time. There are many ways to work around that. But, speaking of that, Lupin says that when he was bitten there was no cure. Does that mean that if someone got bitten now there is a cure? Then what about the guy in Mungo's? Oh no, I'm ranting again.
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Accio Book Six - Jun 15, 2004 10:36 am (#392 of 528)
Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them says that there is no cure yet for werewolves. When I read it, it confused me though because I immediately thought of when Lupin said that 'in those days there was no cure'. I think this is just a little mistake.
But to the issue of Lupin raising Harry... Lupin is a KNOWN werewolf, and we know of the prejudice there is towards werewolves. What do you think the reaction of the WW would be if the most famous person in their world, the boy who rid them of the Dark Lord, was being raised by a werewolf? I think that IF Lupin were a candidate to raise Harry, he would be thinking more along those lines when he decided that he couldn't take care of him rather than the actual LOGISTICS of a werewolf raising a child.
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Weeny Owl - Jun 15, 2004 10:50 am (#393 of 528)
No one is going to remove Harry from the Dursleys because Dumbledore wouldn't allow that. It's essential for Harry's protection.
It isn't whether or not Lupin would raise Harry, but what contact he has with Harry. The werewolf problem still has no bearing on staying in contact with Harry regardless of Lupin being Lupin or Lupin-as-James.
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Accio Book Six - Jun 15, 2004 10:56 am (#394 of 528)
I know that Harry has to live with a relative. I do NOT believe that James is in fact Lupin, but say he was... wouldn't the relative rule work there, too? So say if the switching spell couldn't be un-switched because James' body was killed before James could come back as Remus and turn it all right, James technically COULD have raised Harry, but WOULDN'T because Remus' body is a widely known werewolf.
I'm just playing Devil's advocate here...
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NYCNomad - Jun 15, 2004 11:01 am (#395 of 528)
But the relative has to be BLOOD of Lily. Relative is all good and great, but Vernon is useless, Aunt Marge is useless, Dudley perhaps, but Petunia is Lilys only blood relation. I like saying that, Vernon is useless.
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Weeny Owl - Jun 15, 2004 11:03 am (#396 of 528)
I don't think the relative rule would work because it's Lily's blood that matters.
Even if Lupin is James, I still don't think Dumbledore, if he knows, would have allowed Harry to stay with anyone but the Durleys because of the explanation in OotP about him calling home the place where his mother's blood dwells. (I don't have the exact quote.)
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 15, 2004 11:07 am (#397 of 528)
As for Lupin not being in contact with Harry because of being a werewolf, I don't see it as supporting this theory because he's a werewolf for just a few days each month. -- Weeny Owl
Well, that was probably the reasoning that made "Lupin/James" think that it would be ok to teach at Hogwarts, wasn't it? All the teachers knew about his status, Snape was bringing him the latest in "werewolf control" potions, and, after all, it was only a few days a month to worry about. Well, that plan worked out beautifully, didn't it? The problem would be if an emergency comes up (such as seeing HRH, Sirius, and Pettigrew on the map heading to the Whomping Willow) and requires action, you (as a werewolf) would risk making things much, much worse.
(Arrgh!!! I don't even believe in this theory and look at me! Did someone do a switching spell on me without telling me?)
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Accio Book Six - Jun 15, 2004 11:07 am (#398 of 528)
I take it all back. I forgot about the MOTHER's blood rule. But say it was the father's side that counts... if James IS Lupin, would he even count, not having his own blood anymore?
I think the reason that theorizing is so fun on this board is because ANYTHING is possible in Harry Potter.
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Weeny Owl - Jun 15, 2004 11:27 am (#399 of 528)
Lupin being a werewolf would need to be exceptionally careful regardless of whether or not he's actually related to Harry, but friend or father, there's still the question of why we never hear that he's even sent a letter to Harry.
I still believe that if it were more than just Harry being his friends' son, he would stay in contact. An occasional letter, a birthday card, a Christmas card... any of those would be possible without giving away anything.
I think Lupin cares for Harry but not because he's Harry's father in a werewolf body.
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S.E. Jones - Jun 15, 2004 11:06 pm (#400 of 528)
Let it snow!
Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them says that there is no cure yet for werewolves.
But doesn't that just hold true for the time of the writing of the book? Isn't it supposed to be an old school book? Doesn't it also say in another place something along the lines of "at the time of writing, there is a Werewolf Support Unit in the Beings Division...." which means that Harry could be reading the book 5 years later. Lupins says in PoA, "...but in those days there was no cure" alluding to there being a cure now....
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Lupin is really James Potter (Post 401 to 450)
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Accio Book Six - Jun 16, 2004 6:06 am (#401 of 528)
I guess I just figured that this was a new edition... after all, it IS the 75th edition or something in like 100 years, and the fact that it is HARRY's book (that he would have bought new) and not a library book makes me think that it would be fairly up to date. I'm sure it could be a year or two old, but probably not much more than that. That's also not to say that a werewolf cure was found in that time, but we have no proof of that.
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Ff3girl - Jun 16, 2004 11:04 pm (#402 of 528)
Liz Mann said: Quite often if she brings something up more than once, it'll be important at some point.
Ok, so Switching Spells have been mentioned four times, isn't that right? And it is true that usually when something is important to the series it is mentioned more than once. But there have been so many things that have been mentioned more than once!! This might not be the strongest argument, but you can usually find cross-references across the series for tons of spells and characters.
Besides that, none of the references has mentioned the switching spell being capable of switching human souls. It seems like the only mention of a spell or ability that affects the soul (so far) is the Dementor's Kiss.
A person's soul is usually not something to be messed with. I think in the same way that the only curse that kills is Avada Kedavra, the only curse/spell/ability that could remove a person's soul, in my opinion, is the Dementor's Kiss. That's that makes it so terrifying.
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NYCNomad - Jun 17, 2004 5:25 am (#403 of 528)
Ff3girl; I think I see where you're coming from. Just because Harrys neck is tingling more than once, doesn't make his neck magical, and just because Dobby has a big, long nose doesn't mean that it is vastly important. But, as a general rule, things are mentioned with a purpose. Many of those examples where switching spell are mentioned could have used different spells instead. Additionally, it is mentioned in various levels of their academic career. Not like the levitation spell where you learn it and leave it be, it was mentioned early, again later and once again even later in the books. This gives me the impression that it is a spell that has stages to it. Like transfiguration as a whole, changing like inanimated objects to something similar is easy, but changing a complex vertebrea animal is a whole lot harder. I would guess that switching your ears would be easy, changing your entire body would be much much harder.
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 22, 2004 9:19 am (#404 of 528)
Just happened to be perusing POA last night when I came across the scene where Snape enters the Shack. He is explaining that he was bringing Lupin his potion when he saw everything going on on the Maurader's Map. More importantly, he says to Lupin, I saw "you." "You!" There is no hint or trace, from either Snape or Lupin, that this was odd or that he saw anything other than a dot that said "Remus Lupin."
I point this out because there was some speculation that Snape saw "James Potter" on the map. If that's so, JKR gives us not so much as a hint of it here...very unlike her to not drop a clue.
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Accio Book Six - Jun 22, 2004 10:22 am (#405 of 528)
I agree with you, Loopy Lupin. I think that there is just too much evidence against this theory and it is just WAY too far fetched to be a possibility. I can see something like this almost ruining the integrity of the series. Imagine how many people will read that and just think to themselves "what the ****!?" I just don't know how she could tie up all the loose ends and make it seem believable... and how would Lupin really being James help or further the story? Wouldn't it just complicate it?
And on to the part when Snape says that he saw "you" (Lupin) on the map... wouldn't he say something along the lines of "to my surprise, I saw YOU on the map" or SOMETHING that would make it seem out of the ordinary? I for one think that Snape first pointed his wand at Lupin because he had been looking for something he could peg on him to get him fired for a year, and he finally had the perfect bit of incriminating evidence... he was helping Sirius Black. Snape is more than capable of pointing his wand at Lupin, but still keeping his eye on both men and attackiing Sirius (should he have made a move)
Anyways, that's all I have to say... for now
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Ff3girl - Jun 22, 2004 11:45 pm (#406 of 528)
Very well put, Accio Book 6. I also think that Snape simply calling Lupin "You" is not nearly enough of a clue for it to be anything. I think that for this to be used as evidence (as well as many of the other arguments for this theory) would require a huuuge stretch of the imagination. I would feel very personally cheated if this theory were true. (I do love arguing against it, though! ^_~)
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Denise P. - Jun 23, 2004 9:59 am (#407 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
You really can't take anything from the movies as either a pro or con in regards to this theory since the movies are not canon. Any argument for or against has to come only from the books. If not, we could have a field day with the entire gringe in your seat scene from the movie that would support this theory.
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Liz Mann - Jun 23, 2004 12:41 pm (#408 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Just happened to be perusing POA last night when I came across the scene where Snape enters the Shack. He is explaining that he was bringing Lupin his potion when he saw everything going on on the Maurader's Map. More importantly, he says to Lupin, I saw "you." "You!" There is no hint or trace, from either Snape or Lupin, that this was odd or that he saw anything other than a dot that said "Remus Lupin."
I point this out because there was some speculation that Snape saw "James Potter" on the map. If that's so, JKR gives us not so much as a hint of it here...very unlike her to not drop a clue.
That was me who said that, but I also said that when Snape came in, he was pointing his wand, not at Sirius, the supposedly dangerous mass murderer, but at Lupin. And then it was Lupin that he tied up. Why?
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Accio Book Six - Jun 23, 2004 12:48 pm (#409 of 528)
I think I gave my idea on why that might be a couple posts ago, Liz Mann. Ch-Ch-Check it out.
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Liz Mann - Jun 23, 2004 2:12 pm (#410 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I for one think that Snape first pointed his wand at Lupin because he had been looking for something he could peg on him to get him fired for a year, and he finally had the perfect bit of incriminating evidence... he was helping Sirius Black. Snape is more than capable of pointing his wand at Lupin, but still keeping his eye on both men and attackiing Sirius (should he have made a move).
Yes, but wouldn't it have made more sense to point his wand at the more dangerous of the two? And wouldn't Snape be more interested in catching the man who tried to kill him than the man who got the job he wants?
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Bluenote1313 - Jun 23, 2004 2:16 pm (#411 of 528)
Although I am one of the biggest supporters of this theory....I think there a few explanations on why Snape was pointing his wand at Lupin:
1 - It was his archenemy James he saw on the map. Why didn't he say it? Becasue he hates James and Harry and knows what the truth would mean. I just reread PoA and noticed that when ever Harry is looking a the map he never sees Lupin. It's the way Snape says "you" to Lupin that struck something. What if Snape is looking at the map and sees "James Potter" going in the passage way and cannot believe his eyes so he goes to investigate...then when he gets in to the Shack all he finds is Lupin and no James? I can imagine just that reaction.
2 - Snape knew Lupin had not taken his potion and didn't know when he might start transforming.
3 - Lupin had a wand and Sirius didn't when Snape entered the room.
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Weeny Owl - Jun 23, 2004 2:21 pm (#412 of 528)
I was thinking that about the potion. After all, while Snape was never actually attacked by a werewolf, it was close, and since Lupin hadn't taken his Wolfsbane Potion, that would be what Snape was thinking of.
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Ff3girl - Jun 23, 2004 5:20 pm (#413 of 528)
I do think that if Snape saw "James Potter" on the mauraders' map, he would've said more than just "you", because that would be another think to rub in Harry's face about his father. I would imagine him saying something like:
"You understand the kind of man your father was now?! He wasn't even man enough to face his own death!"
Man, oh man. If an explanation of that was added into the shrieking shack scene... well, that would've been a hard scene to follow!
I really hope that at some point, Harry does see Lupin on the Marauders' map. That way we could really get this matter settled once and for all.
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Catherine - Jun 24, 2004 7:48 am (#414 of 528)
Canon Seeker
Please forgive me if I am misunderstanding the recent posts, but I guess I'm missing the significance of the word "you." In my hardback Scholastic edition, when Snape reveals himself in the Shrieking Shack, he calls both Lupin and Sirius "Lupin and Black." In fact, he calls them by their names several times each.
I have always assumed that Snape tied up Lupin because Lupin had not taken his potion that night, and also because he didn't want Lupin interfering in Black's capture. Snape had drawn the conclusion that Lupin had been helping Black all along, and along with the lycanthropy, was perceived as doubly dangerous. In addition, I think Snape was enjoying Sirius's capture, and wanted to fully experience being in a position of power and control over someone he hates.
I have read and reread that scene, and I can find no real evidence that Snape has seen James Potter in the Maruader's Map. I'll go read it again....
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Accio Book Six - Jun 24, 2004 8:17 am (#415 of 528)
You took the words right out of my mouth, Catherine. I think that if this is going to be evidence towards the Lupin is James theory, it has to be a lot more sound.
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Liz Mann - Jun 24, 2004 10:42 am (#416 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
What we mean by 'you' is that when Snape was explaining how he knew they were there, he said, "I saw you running down the tunnel and out of sight." Or something like that.
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Ff3girl - Jun 24, 2004 3:44 pm (#417 of 528)
Good catch, Catherine. I suppose to should read a scene before I try to comment on it from my memory alone. If Snape really did call them both Lupin and Black, that would seem like another really good argument against this theory.
*waves a little flag that says 'yay!'*
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TheQuibbler - Jun 26, 2004 9:28 pm (#418 of 528)
Hear Hear to Professor Kosh. I don't understand this theory. -Lupin, like Sirius, obviously feels a paternal bond with Harry and wants to protect him but while he was teaching at Hogwarts, he thought better revealing to Harry the terrible past with the Sirius/Wormtail switch. -He was good friends with James and that's why he feels shaken that Harry heard his voice. -With the invisibility cloak and the key, James obviously gave them to DD for safe keeping. -Lupin could transform too, yet his tranformation was not optional at that time. -And honestly, who would have wanted to have their fortune told by Trelawny?
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Leila 2X4B - Jul 2, 2004 9:25 pm (#419 of 528)
I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
TheQuibbler has a good point. Man, just typing that sentence feels weird. It is odd to assume that Sirius could feel a bond with Harry and not Lupin. Harry is like a picture of James, and even if Lupin never knew Harry, it must be like looking at his best friend from school again. Lupin wanted to reach out to Harry, but the memories were probably painful.
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Denise P. - Jul 3, 2004 7:49 am (#420 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
I am not sure how the last two posts have any bearing on this theory. Can you be more specific in how it relates to James being Lupin.
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Leila 2X4B - Jul 3, 2004 10:58 am (#421 of 528)
I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
I was referring to the idea that Lupin's paternal and loving feelings toward Harry indicated that he was in fact James and my previous post was showing how that just because Lupin cares for Harry doesn't necessarily indicate that he is nothing other than who he appears.
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The Artful Dodger - Jul 6, 2004 7:35 pm (#422 of 528)
Sorry, but I don't think there's much in this theory, as most (I dare say all) arguments can be easily explained. For example, Lupin doesn't stare at Harry's scar because he is sensible enough to know it would annoy him. And the reaction when Harry tells him about hearing Lily and James screaming is an expression of deep concern (reading that particular scene always makes me shudder). And this behaviour, this understanding makes him such a thoroughly loveable character (I believe he is my favourite of all).
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NYCNomad - Jul 7, 2004 11:48 am (#423 of 528)
Artful Dodger- I would disagree. I feel there is lots of good strong evidence that Lupin is James. I don't really feel that it is accurate, but I feel the need to support the theory, it's become a little something of a personal quest for me. I agree that there are plenty of arguments against this theory, but to say that this is groundless, I would suggest rereading this thread to see all of the arguments.
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The Artful Dodger - Jul 8, 2004 11:49 am (#424 of 528)
If Lupin is James Potter, then I wonder why he hasn't shown his real identity to Harry by now. It would be torture if he told Harry at the end of book 7 "Hey, your father's always been alive, it's me." I don't see the point why Rowling would let Harry suffer all the pain if his father wasn't dead at all.
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NYCNomad - Jul 8, 2004 11:58 am (#425 of 528)
That is the strongest argument against it, I agree, but there could be any number of reasons. That is up to JKR to reveal to us. She has shown us ways that Voldemort came back to life, even though he was supposed to be dead. When she killed Sirius, she said she didn't want to but she had to to make room for an event coming up. My theory is that Lupin is really Lupin, but with some of James in him due to a crazy switching spell.
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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jul 8, 2004 1:08 pm (#426 of 528)
Sometimes known as Kim.
Artful Dodger---As my name suggests, no one is more against this theory than me. But if you read this thread, and I know at 400+ posts that is rather daunting, you will see many reasonable arguments supporting it. Specifically, check out posts by Denise P. for reasons why James as Lupin has not revealed himself to Harry.
For the record I, personally, will go into a severe decline if this theory proves true.
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Leila 2X4B - Jul 8, 2004 1:10 pm (#427 of 528)
I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
I believe that Lupin is Lupin and James is as dead as a doornail. I also believe that Harry would have seen "James Potter" on the Marauder's Map. Plus I agree with the Dodger, JKR wouln't put Harry through all of that torment to say "BOO" Suprise, Daddy's here. Moreover, as a parent I know that I could not stand aside watching my only beloved child suffer.
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Denise P. - Jul 8, 2004 3:50 pm (#428 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
We know that the map shows the person, not necessarily the body they inhabit. We know this because it showed Barty Crouch rather than Mad Eye in Snape's office. The same argument could be used for Harry never seeing James Potter on the map as was explained why Ron (or anyone before Lupin) never saw Peter Pettigrew
Harry, as far as we know, never saw Lupin on the map. That being the case, you can't say it never showed James Potter on the map.
Yep, it would be hard to sit and watch your child suffer but if you knew revealing yourself would cause untold number of people to die and suffer, it may make your choice a little less hard. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Didn't Dumbledore say something similar to that to the twins, in regards to The Order? Arthur and those folks understand the needs of the Order is greater than their personal needs.
We don't know the specifics of why the Potters went into hiding. We can speculate that James is acting for the greater good, sacrificing his own wants and those of Harry for that greater good. A very tough choice and if this theory pans out, I certainly hope Harry can get past his personal anger to see that it was for a greater good.
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The Artful Dodger - Jul 8, 2004 3:53 pm (#429 of 528)
Lupin is Lupin, I followed your advice, and I agree that their are some strong pro-arguments. I also must admit that partly, I don't believe this theory because I don't want to. My explanation for Lupin's odd behaviour (and the J. in his name) would be that he had a very special relationship to James. Bit thin, though. Seems I have to give it a second thought...
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The Artful Dodger - Jul 8, 2004 4:14 pm (#430 of 528)
Just noticed something: If Lupin is James, than he should've known all the time that Sirius is not the traitor. And if he could not share the truth about his identity with the members of the Order, he should at least have shared the truth about Sirius with them (as it would have been in their interest). But nobody knows that Sirius is innocent until the end of PoA. So it does seem rather unlikely that James still lives in Lupin, doesn't it?
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Catherine - Jul 8, 2004 4:20 pm (#431 of 528)
Canon Seeker
Denise, I'm sure this is a typo, ". Didn't Dumbledore say something similar to that to the twins, in regards to The Order?
It was Sirius who said it, as you quite correctly pointed out that larger things are at stake.
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Ff3girl - Jul 9, 2004 1:39 am (#432 of 528)
The Artful Dodger :If Lupin is James, than he should've known all the time that Sirius is not the traitor.
And I would just like to add... boom shaka laka.
Thank you.
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Tomoé - Jul 9, 2004 7:11 am (#433 of 528)
Back in business
Pretty fair point Artful Dodger! ^_~ (no one have find that in 429 posts?)
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Loopy Lupin - Jul 9, 2004 7:42 am (#434 of 528)
For the record I, personally, will go into a severe decline if this theory proves true. -- Lupin is Lupin
What, oh what, would you do with your name?
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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jul 9, 2004 8:00 am (#435 of 528)
Sometimes known as Kim.
What, oh what, would you do with your name? -- Loopy Lupin
Funny you should ask...I'd recently considered that and decided there would be only one option for me. Are you ready??? Here it is then...
Lupin was Lupin
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Catherine - Jul 9, 2004 8:16 am (#436 of 528)
Canon Seeker
Kim, I laughed out loud at "Lupin was Lupin"!
You know, it might be slightly less elegant, but I would not begrudge you a "HA! I TOLD YOU that Lupin was Lupin!"
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Loopy Lupin - Jul 9, 2004 8:19 am (#437 of 528)
Or Lupin is NOT Lupin.
Although I am confident in my dismissal of this theory, I would say that if it proves to be true JKR had better come up with some pretty plausible explanations or some unsuspecting person will be hit with a flying Book 6 (or 7) straight out my window.
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Catherine - Jul 9, 2004 8:28 am (#438 of 528)
Canon Seeker
I don't blame you, Loopy. I'm afraid that if Lupin is James, then I might accidentally perform emotional, wandless magic and hit someone with a Bat-Bogey Hex or maybe even an Entrail-Expelling Curse. Accidentally, naturally.
I think that a lot of fans would be sending JKR a howler if she pulls the "Lupin is James" plotline. She really would need a goatee, and a one-way ticket to Bolivia.
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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jul 9, 2004 8:32 am (#439 of 528)
Sometimes known as Kim.
I think I was unclear. Or I'm misreading both Catherine's and Loopy's posts. When I said 'Lupin was Lupin', I meant 'Lupin used to be Lupin'--should this theory prove true.
But if this theory proves to be false--and I'm considering a novena to ensure this--then I shall (and feel free to call me a sore winner) change my name to HA! I TOLD YOU that Lupin is Lupin! Nah nah na nah nah!
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Loopy Lupin - Jul 9, 2004 8:41 am (#440 of 528)
HA! I TOLD YOU that Lupin is Lupin! Nah nah na nah nah!-- Lupin is Lupin
No, I think we understand each other. Anyway, I would definitely not hold it against you if you changed your name to that. Even if you don't, my comment line will read: HA! Lupin is Lupin told you so!
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Bluenote1313 - Jul 9, 2004 12:01 pm (#441 of 528)
Artful Dodger said: If Lupin is James, than he should've known all the time that Sirius is not the traitor
our response? No. In the timeline of the theory, James and Lupin switched sometime before the Fideleus (SP?) Charm was cast. When Lupin (James) left he thoguht Sirius would be the Secret Keeper. At the last minute Sirius suggested Peter to Lily and James (who was Lupin). When Lupin (James) went to Sirius to find out where the Potter's were at, he suspected Lupin was the traitor (from PoA) and wouldn't tell him where (even though he really couldn't)
Once Peter betrayed the Potter's, Sirius realized he was wrong but was immediately sent to jail and Lupin (James) was stuck in the body he currently inhabits. Its all in the timing of when the spells were cast and where each person was at the time. The James/Lupin switch was supposed to be temporary but since Peter betrayed them right after becoming Secret Keeper (or within a weeks time) he was stuck in the current body, with no proof who he really is and no way to protect his son since he becomes a werewolf for a short time each month.
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The Artful Dodger - Jul 9, 2004 1:09 pm (#442 of 528)
I'm well aware of that, but why should Lupin (in Jame's body) and Lily not tell James (in Lupin's body) whom they had chosen as Secret Keeper? There wouldn't have been too much risk in it, because after all, James (in Lupin's body) would be highly unlikely the one who spied on James and Lily. One has to think of pretty far-fetched explanations to keep this theory alive, it seems to me.
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tracie1976 - Jul 9, 2004 1:16 pm (#443 of 528)
"Harry needs her badly." JKR on Hermione...interview from The Times June 30, 2000 artwork for avatar by logansrogue at livejournal.com
James would have to know that they changed the secret keeper to Peter before the charm had to be done. So if James is some how in Lupin's body, he would know that Sirius was not the secret keeper and did not betray the Potters. So Lupin would not have found out about Peter still being alive and actually betraying the Potters instead of Sirius at the end of PoA. So there can't be a way that James is actually Lupin.
In short Lupin is Lupin and unfortunately James is dead IMO.
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Aud Duck - Jul 12, 2004 6:47 pm (#444 of 528)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
Forgive me if someone's already said this, as I haven't read the whole thread yet; my main problems with the theory are these:
First, the Lupin that Harry knows as a DADA teacher does not remotely resemble the James shown in the pensieve. Time changes people, yes. But the reason that this doesn't convince me is that the fifteen-year-old Lupin in the pensieve acts very much like the older DADA teacher. James may or may not be a good actor, but after a good twelve years in hiding, I think his concentration would be lapsing somewhat. You can argue a very guarded demeanour in Patronus lessons with Harry, but I think that the events in the shreiking shack would be so emotional that he would forget to act like the calm, reasonable Lupin and become more like himself, especially with regards to Snape.
Second, there is a problem with the betrayal logic. The Lupin is James theory involves too many extraneous people. In order for it to happen, James had to trust Lupin and Sirius, which doesn't add up. It seems that it never occured to any of the marauders that Peter was a threat. So they know that one of the four is the spy. James wouldn't spy on himself, so that's out. Peter isn't worth considering. Sirius wouldn't betray James. That leaves only Lupin as a possibility for traitor, and if James had thought that Lupin was the traitor, he certainly would not have left him with Lily and baby Harry. I don't buy that James suspected Peter. He would have told Sirius if that was the case. And as I already mentioned, I don't think it ever crossed their minds to suspect him.
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Paulus Maximus - Jul 15, 2004 4:19 am (#445 of 528)
I think that if James and Remus had switched, Lily would know.
And when she appeared from Voldemort's wand in the graveyard, she said to Harry "Your father is coming... hold on for your father."
Now, J and R might have pulled a fast one on Lily, or she might have some reason to make Harry think that it was his father... but it seems more likely that James was James and Remus is Remus.
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Weeny Owl - Jul 16, 2004 11:52 am (#446 of 528)
In Dumbledore's office after the Barty Crouch, Jr. confession, Dumbledore is explaining the Priori Incantatem and says it's "An echo which retained Cedric's appearance and character." It also retained the appearance and character of the other victims, and it would seem reasonable to think that James's appearance and character were actually James.
In PoA, Sirius says, "I persuaded Lily and James to change to Peter at the last moment, persuaded them to use him as Secret-Keeper instead of me." Lily and James knew Sirius wasn't their Secret-Keeper and longer, and the change was "at the last moment." Depending on what "at the last moment" means, there wouldn't have been time for an elaborate body switch to occur.
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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jul 17, 2004 3:12 pm (#447 of 528)
Sometimes known as Kim.
but it seems more likely that James was James and Remus is Remus. --Paulus Maximus
Paulus, the correct phrasing for that theory is: Lupin is Lupin.
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Courtney22 - Jul 17, 2004 8:19 pm (#448 of 528)
Earlier in this thread (I think but am too lazy to double check sorry)Someone said that the fact that no one ever saw Lupin on the Marauders Map was a clue that James and Lupin switched but Snape saw Lupin on the map. Lupin is Lupin.
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Denise P. - Jul 17, 2004 9:02 pm (#449 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Well, Snape never specifically says he saw Lupin on the map, does he?
Lying on your desk was a certain map. One glance at it told me all I needed to know. I saw you running along this passageway and out of sight.
We don't know for a fact what the map showed.
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Courtney22 - Jul 17, 2004 9:37 pm (#450 of 528)
Before he says "you" he specifically calls Lupin by name.
"I've just been in your office Lupin. You forgot to take your potion tonight, so I took a goblet along. And very lucky I did ... lucky for me, I mean. Lying on your desk was a certain map. One glance told me all I need to know. I saw you running along this passage way out of site." p. 358 American hardback ed.
To me that says that he saw Lupin on the passage The rest of the conversation he still refers to him as Lupin which tells me he saw Lupin's name on the map not James.
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I guess I just figured that this was a new edition... after all, it IS the 75th edition or something in like 100 years, and the fact that it is HARRY's book (that he would have bought new) and not a library book makes me think that it would be fairly up to date. I'm sure it could be a year or two old, but probably not much more than that. That's also not to say that a werewolf cure was found in that time, but we have no proof of that.
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Ff3girl - Jun 16, 2004 11:04 pm (#402 of 528)
Liz Mann said: Quite often if she brings something up more than once, it'll be important at some point.
Ok, so Switching Spells have been mentioned four times, isn't that right? And it is true that usually when something is important to the series it is mentioned more than once. But there have been so many things that have been mentioned more than once!! This might not be the strongest argument, but you can usually find cross-references across the series for tons of spells and characters.
Besides that, none of the references has mentioned the switching spell being capable of switching human souls. It seems like the only mention of a spell or ability that affects the soul (so far) is the Dementor's Kiss.
A person's soul is usually not something to be messed with. I think in the same way that the only curse that kills is Avada Kedavra, the only curse/spell/ability that could remove a person's soul, in my opinion, is the Dementor's Kiss. That's that makes it so terrifying.
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NYCNomad - Jun 17, 2004 5:25 am (#403 of 528)
Ff3girl; I think I see where you're coming from. Just because Harrys neck is tingling more than once, doesn't make his neck magical, and just because Dobby has a big, long nose doesn't mean that it is vastly important. But, as a general rule, things are mentioned with a purpose. Many of those examples where switching spell are mentioned could have used different spells instead. Additionally, it is mentioned in various levels of their academic career. Not like the levitation spell where you learn it and leave it be, it was mentioned early, again later and once again even later in the books. This gives me the impression that it is a spell that has stages to it. Like transfiguration as a whole, changing like inanimated objects to something similar is easy, but changing a complex vertebrea animal is a whole lot harder. I would guess that switching your ears would be easy, changing your entire body would be much much harder.
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Loopy Lupin - Jun 22, 2004 9:19 am (#404 of 528)
Just happened to be perusing POA last night when I came across the scene where Snape enters the Shack. He is explaining that he was bringing Lupin his potion when he saw everything going on on the Maurader's Map. More importantly, he says to Lupin, I saw "you." "You!" There is no hint or trace, from either Snape or Lupin, that this was odd or that he saw anything other than a dot that said "Remus Lupin."
I point this out because there was some speculation that Snape saw "James Potter" on the map. If that's so, JKR gives us not so much as a hint of it here...very unlike her to not drop a clue.
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Accio Book Six - Jun 22, 2004 10:22 am (#405 of 528)
I agree with you, Loopy Lupin. I think that there is just too much evidence against this theory and it is just WAY too far fetched to be a possibility. I can see something like this almost ruining the integrity of the series. Imagine how many people will read that and just think to themselves "what the ****!?" I just don't know how she could tie up all the loose ends and make it seem believable... and how would Lupin really being James help or further the story? Wouldn't it just complicate it?
And on to the part when Snape says that he saw "you" (Lupin) on the map... wouldn't he say something along the lines of "to my surprise, I saw YOU on the map" or SOMETHING that would make it seem out of the ordinary? I for one think that Snape first pointed his wand at Lupin because he had been looking for something he could peg on him to get him fired for a year, and he finally had the perfect bit of incriminating evidence... he was helping Sirius Black. Snape is more than capable of pointing his wand at Lupin, but still keeping his eye on both men and attackiing Sirius (should he have made a move)
Anyways, that's all I have to say... for now
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Ff3girl - Jun 22, 2004 11:45 pm (#406 of 528)
Very well put, Accio Book 6. I also think that Snape simply calling Lupin "You" is not nearly enough of a clue for it to be anything. I think that for this to be used as evidence (as well as many of the other arguments for this theory) would require a huuuge stretch of the imagination. I would feel very personally cheated if this theory were true. (I do love arguing against it, though! ^_~)
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Denise P. - Jun 23, 2004 9:59 am (#407 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
You really can't take anything from the movies as either a pro or con in regards to this theory since the movies are not canon. Any argument for or against has to come only from the books. If not, we could have a field day with the entire gringe in your seat scene from the movie that would support this theory.
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Liz Mann - Jun 23, 2004 12:41 pm (#408 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
Just happened to be perusing POA last night when I came across the scene where Snape enters the Shack. He is explaining that he was bringing Lupin his potion when he saw everything going on on the Maurader's Map. More importantly, he says to Lupin, I saw "you." "You!" There is no hint or trace, from either Snape or Lupin, that this was odd or that he saw anything other than a dot that said "Remus Lupin."
I point this out because there was some speculation that Snape saw "James Potter" on the map. If that's so, JKR gives us not so much as a hint of it here...very unlike her to not drop a clue.
That was me who said that, but I also said that when Snape came in, he was pointing his wand, not at Sirius, the supposedly dangerous mass murderer, but at Lupin. And then it was Lupin that he tied up. Why?
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Accio Book Six - Jun 23, 2004 12:48 pm (#409 of 528)
I think I gave my idea on why that might be a couple posts ago, Liz Mann. Ch-Ch-Check it out.
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Liz Mann - Jun 23, 2004 2:12 pm (#410 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
I for one think that Snape first pointed his wand at Lupin because he had been looking for something he could peg on him to get him fired for a year, and he finally had the perfect bit of incriminating evidence... he was helping Sirius Black. Snape is more than capable of pointing his wand at Lupin, but still keeping his eye on both men and attackiing Sirius (should he have made a move).
Yes, but wouldn't it have made more sense to point his wand at the more dangerous of the two? And wouldn't Snape be more interested in catching the man who tried to kill him than the man who got the job he wants?
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Bluenote1313 - Jun 23, 2004 2:16 pm (#411 of 528)
Although I am one of the biggest supporters of this theory....I think there a few explanations on why Snape was pointing his wand at Lupin:
1 - It was his archenemy James he saw on the map. Why didn't he say it? Becasue he hates James and Harry and knows what the truth would mean. I just reread PoA and noticed that when ever Harry is looking a the map he never sees Lupin. It's the way Snape says "you" to Lupin that struck something. What if Snape is looking at the map and sees "James Potter" going in the passage way and cannot believe his eyes so he goes to investigate...then when he gets in to the Shack all he finds is Lupin and no James? I can imagine just that reaction.
2 - Snape knew Lupin had not taken his potion and didn't know when he might start transforming.
3 - Lupin had a wand and Sirius didn't when Snape entered the room.
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Weeny Owl - Jun 23, 2004 2:21 pm (#412 of 528)
I was thinking that about the potion. After all, while Snape was never actually attacked by a werewolf, it was close, and since Lupin hadn't taken his Wolfsbane Potion, that would be what Snape was thinking of.
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Ff3girl - Jun 23, 2004 5:20 pm (#413 of 528)
I do think that if Snape saw "James Potter" on the mauraders' map, he would've said more than just "you", because that would be another think to rub in Harry's face about his father. I would imagine him saying something like:
"You understand the kind of man your father was now?! He wasn't even man enough to face his own death!"
Man, oh man. If an explanation of that was added into the shrieking shack scene... well, that would've been a hard scene to follow!
I really hope that at some point, Harry does see Lupin on the Marauders' map. That way we could really get this matter settled once and for all.
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Catherine - Jun 24, 2004 7:48 am (#414 of 528)
Canon Seeker
Please forgive me if I am misunderstanding the recent posts, but I guess I'm missing the significance of the word "you." In my hardback Scholastic edition, when Snape reveals himself in the Shrieking Shack, he calls both Lupin and Sirius "Lupin and Black." In fact, he calls them by their names several times each.
I have always assumed that Snape tied up Lupin because Lupin had not taken his potion that night, and also because he didn't want Lupin interfering in Black's capture. Snape had drawn the conclusion that Lupin had been helping Black all along, and along with the lycanthropy, was perceived as doubly dangerous. In addition, I think Snape was enjoying Sirius's capture, and wanted to fully experience being in a position of power and control over someone he hates.
I have read and reread that scene, and I can find no real evidence that Snape has seen James Potter in the Maruader's Map. I'll go read it again....
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Accio Book Six - Jun 24, 2004 8:17 am (#415 of 528)
You took the words right out of my mouth, Catherine. I think that if this is going to be evidence towards the Lupin is James theory, it has to be a lot more sound.
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Liz Mann - Jun 24, 2004 10:42 am (#416 of 528)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
What we mean by 'you' is that when Snape was explaining how he knew they were there, he said, "I saw you running down the tunnel and out of sight." Or something like that.
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Ff3girl - Jun 24, 2004 3:44 pm (#417 of 528)
Good catch, Catherine. I suppose to should read a scene before I try to comment on it from my memory alone. If Snape really did call them both Lupin and Black, that would seem like another really good argument against this theory.
*waves a little flag that says 'yay!'*
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TheQuibbler - Jun 26, 2004 9:28 pm (#418 of 528)
Hear Hear to Professor Kosh. I don't understand this theory. -Lupin, like Sirius, obviously feels a paternal bond with Harry and wants to protect him but while he was teaching at Hogwarts, he thought better revealing to Harry the terrible past with the Sirius/Wormtail switch. -He was good friends with James and that's why he feels shaken that Harry heard his voice. -With the invisibility cloak and the key, James obviously gave them to DD for safe keeping. -Lupin could transform too, yet his tranformation was not optional at that time. -And honestly, who would have wanted to have their fortune told by Trelawny?
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Leila 2X4B - Jul 2, 2004 9:25 pm (#419 of 528)
I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
TheQuibbler has a good point. Man, just typing that sentence feels weird. It is odd to assume that Sirius could feel a bond with Harry and not Lupin. Harry is like a picture of James, and even if Lupin never knew Harry, it must be like looking at his best friend from school again. Lupin wanted to reach out to Harry, but the memories were probably painful.
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Denise P. - Jul 3, 2004 7:49 am (#420 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
I am not sure how the last two posts have any bearing on this theory. Can you be more specific in how it relates to James being Lupin.
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Leila 2X4B - Jul 3, 2004 10:58 am (#421 of 528)
I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
I was referring to the idea that Lupin's paternal and loving feelings toward Harry indicated that he was in fact James and my previous post was showing how that just because Lupin cares for Harry doesn't necessarily indicate that he is nothing other than who he appears.
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The Artful Dodger - Jul 6, 2004 7:35 pm (#422 of 528)
Sorry, but I don't think there's much in this theory, as most (I dare say all) arguments can be easily explained. For example, Lupin doesn't stare at Harry's scar because he is sensible enough to know it would annoy him. And the reaction when Harry tells him about hearing Lily and James screaming is an expression of deep concern (reading that particular scene always makes me shudder). And this behaviour, this understanding makes him such a thoroughly loveable character (I believe he is my favourite of all).
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NYCNomad - Jul 7, 2004 11:48 am (#423 of 528)
Artful Dodger- I would disagree. I feel there is lots of good strong evidence that Lupin is James. I don't really feel that it is accurate, but I feel the need to support the theory, it's become a little something of a personal quest for me. I agree that there are plenty of arguments against this theory, but to say that this is groundless, I would suggest rereading this thread to see all of the arguments.
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The Artful Dodger - Jul 8, 2004 11:49 am (#424 of 528)
If Lupin is James Potter, then I wonder why he hasn't shown his real identity to Harry by now. It would be torture if he told Harry at the end of book 7 "Hey, your father's always been alive, it's me." I don't see the point why Rowling would let Harry suffer all the pain if his father wasn't dead at all.
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NYCNomad - Jul 8, 2004 11:58 am (#425 of 528)
That is the strongest argument against it, I agree, but there could be any number of reasons. That is up to JKR to reveal to us. She has shown us ways that Voldemort came back to life, even though he was supposed to be dead. When she killed Sirius, she said she didn't want to but she had to to make room for an event coming up. My theory is that Lupin is really Lupin, but with some of James in him due to a crazy switching spell.
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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jul 8, 2004 1:08 pm (#426 of 528)
Sometimes known as Kim.
Artful Dodger---As my name suggests, no one is more against this theory than me. But if you read this thread, and I know at 400+ posts that is rather daunting, you will see many reasonable arguments supporting it. Specifically, check out posts by Denise P. for reasons why James as Lupin has not revealed himself to Harry.
For the record I, personally, will go into a severe decline if this theory proves true.
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Leila 2X4B - Jul 8, 2004 1:10 pm (#427 of 528)
I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
I believe that Lupin is Lupin and James is as dead as a doornail. I also believe that Harry would have seen "James Potter" on the Marauder's Map. Plus I agree with the Dodger, JKR wouln't put Harry through all of that torment to say "BOO" Suprise, Daddy's here. Moreover, as a parent I know that I could not stand aside watching my only beloved child suffer.
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Denise P. - Jul 8, 2004 3:50 pm (#428 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
We know that the map shows the person, not necessarily the body they inhabit. We know this because it showed Barty Crouch rather than Mad Eye in Snape's office. The same argument could be used for Harry never seeing James Potter on the map as was explained why Ron (or anyone before Lupin) never saw Peter Pettigrew
Harry, as far as we know, never saw Lupin on the map. That being the case, you can't say it never showed James Potter on the map.
Yep, it would be hard to sit and watch your child suffer but if you knew revealing yourself would cause untold number of people to die and suffer, it may make your choice a little less hard. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Didn't Dumbledore say something similar to that to the twins, in regards to The Order? Arthur and those folks understand the needs of the Order is greater than their personal needs.
We don't know the specifics of why the Potters went into hiding. We can speculate that James is acting for the greater good, sacrificing his own wants and those of Harry for that greater good. A very tough choice and if this theory pans out, I certainly hope Harry can get past his personal anger to see that it was for a greater good.
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The Artful Dodger - Jul 8, 2004 3:53 pm (#429 of 528)
Lupin is Lupin, I followed your advice, and I agree that their are some strong pro-arguments. I also must admit that partly, I don't believe this theory because I don't want to. My explanation for Lupin's odd behaviour (and the J. in his name) would be that he had a very special relationship to James. Bit thin, though. Seems I have to give it a second thought...
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The Artful Dodger - Jul 8, 2004 4:14 pm (#430 of 528)
Just noticed something: If Lupin is James, than he should've known all the time that Sirius is not the traitor. And if he could not share the truth about his identity with the members of the Order, he should at least have shared the truth about Sirius with them (as it would have been in their interest). But nobody knows that Sirius is innocent until the end of PoA. So it does seem rather unlikely that James still lives in Lupin, doesn't it?
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Catherine - Jul 8, 2004 4:20 pm (#431 of 528)
Canon Seeker
Denise, I'm sure this is a typo, ". Didn't Dumbledore say something similar to that to the twins, in regards to The Order?
It was Sirius who said it, as you quite correctly pointed out that larger things are at stake.
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Ff3girl - Jul 9, 2004 1:39 am (#432 of 528)
The Artful Dodger :If Lupin is James, than he should've known all the time that Sirius is not the traitor.
And I would just like to add... boom shaka laka.
Thank you.
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Tomoé - Jul 9, 2004 7:11 am (#433 of 528)
Back in business
Pretty fair point Artful Dodger! ^_~ (no one have find that in 429 posts?)
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Loopy Lupin - Jul 9, 2004 7:42 am (#434 of 528)
For the record I, personally, will go into a severe decline if this theory proves true. -- Lupin is Lupin
What, oh what, would you do with your name?
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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jul 9, 2004 8:00 am (#435 of 528)
Sometimes known as Kim.
What, oh what, would you do with your name? -- Loopy Lupin
Funny you should ask...I'd recently considered that and decided there would be only one option for me. Are you ready??? Here it is then...
Lupin was Lupin
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Catherine - Jul 9, 2004 8:16 am (#436 of 528)
Canon Seeker
Kim, I laughed out loud at "Lupin was Lupin"!
You know, it might be slightly less elegant, but I would not begrudge you a "HA! I TOLD YOU that Lupin was Lupin!"
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Loopy Lupin - Jul 9, 2004 8:19 am (#437 of 528)
Or Lupin is NOT Lupin.
Although I am confident in my dismissal of this theory, I would say that if it proves to be true JKR had better come up with some pretty plausible explanations or some unsuspecting person will be hit with a flying Book 6 (or 7) straight out my window.
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Catherine - Jul 9, 2004 8:28 am (#438 of 528)
Canon Seeker
I don't blame you, Loopy. I'm afraid that if Lupin is James, then I might accidentally perform emotional, wandless magic and hit someone with a Bat-Bogey Hex or maybe even an Entrail-Expelling Curse. Accidentally, naturally.
I think that a lot of fans would be sending JKR a howler if she pulls the "Lupin is James" plotline. She really would need a goatee, and a one-way ticket to Bolivia.
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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jul 9, 2004 8:32 am (#439 of 528)
Sometimes known as Kim.
I think I was unclear. Or I'm misreading both Catherine's and Loopy's posts. When I said 'Lupin was Lupin', I meant 'Lupin used to be Lupin'--should this theory prove true.
But if this theory proves to be false--and I'm considering a novena to ensure this--then I shall (and feel free to call me a sore winner) change my name to HA! I TOLD YOU that Lupin is Lupin! Nah nah na nah nah!
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Loopy Lupin - Jul 9, 2004 8:41 am (#440 of 528)
HA! I TOLD YOU that Lupin is Lupin! Nah nah na nah nah!-- Lupin is Lupin
No, I think we understand each other. Anyway, I would definitely not hold it against you if you changed your name to that. Even if you don't, my comment line will read: HA! Lupin is Lupin told you so!
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Bluenote1313 - Jul 9, 2004 12:01 pm (#441 of 528)
Artful Dodger said: If Lupin is James, than he should've known all the time that Sirius is not the traitor
our response? No. In the timeline of the theory, James and Lupin switched sometime before the Fideleus (SP?) Charm was cast. When Lupin (James) left he thoguht Sirius would be the Secret Keeper. At the last minute Sirius suggested Peter to Lily and James (who was Lupin). When Lupin (James) went to Sirius to find out where the Potter's were at, he suspected Lupin was the traitor (from PoA) and wouldn't tell him where (even though he really couldn't)
Once Peter betrayed the Potter's, Sirius realized he was wrong but was immediately sent to jail and Lupin (James) was stuck in the body he currently inhabits. Its all in the timing of when the spells were cast and where each person was at the time. The James/Lupin switch was supposed to be temporary but since Peter betrayed them right after becoming Secret Keeper (or within a weeks time) he was stuck in the current body, with no proof who he really is and no way to protect his son since he becomes a werewolf for a short time each month.
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The Artful Dodger - Jul 9, 2004 1:09 pm (#442 of 528)
I'm well aware of that, but why should Lupin (in Jame's body) and Lily not tell James (in Lupin's body) whom they had chosen as Secret Keeper? There wouldn't have been too much risk in it, because after all, James (in Lupin's body) would be highly unlikely the one who spied on James and Lily. One has to think of pretty far-fetched explanations to keep this theory alive, it seems to me.
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tracie1976 - Jul 9, 2004 1:16 pm (#443 of 528)
"Harry needs her badly." JKR on Hermione...interview from The Times June 30, 2000 artwork for avatar by logansrogue at livejournal.com
James would have to know that they changed the secret keeper to Peter before the charm had to be done. So if James is some how in Lupin's body, he would know that Sirius was not the secret keeper and did not betray the Potters. So Lupin would not have found out about Peter still being alive and actually betraying the Potters instead of Sirius at the end of PoA. So there can't be a way that James is actually Lupin.
In short Lupin is Lupin and unfortunately James is dead IMO.
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Aud Duck - Jul 12, 2004 6:47 pm (#444 of 528)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
Forgive me if someone's already said this, as I haven't read the whole thread yet; my main problems with the theory are these:
First, the Lupin that Harry knows as a DADA teacher does not remotely resemble the James shown in the pensieve. Time changes people, yes. But the reason that this doesn't convince me is that the fifteen-year-old Lupin in the pensieve acts very much like the older DADA teacher. James may or may not be a good actor, but after a good twelve years in hiding, I think his concentration would be lapsing somewhat. You can argue a very guarded demeanour in Patronus lessons with Harry, but I think that the events in the shreiking shack would be so emotional that he would forget to act like the calm, reasonable Lupin and become more like himself, especially with regards to Snape.
Second, there is a problem with the betrayal logic. The Lupin is James theory involves too many extraneous people. In order for it to happen, James had to trust Lupin and Sirius, which doesn't add up. It seems that it never occured to any of the marauders that Peter was a threat. So they know that one of the four is the spy. James wouldn't spy on himself, so that's out. Peter isn't worth considering. Sirius wouldn't betray James. That leaves only Lupin as a possibility for traitor, and if James had thought that Lupin was the traitor, he certainly would not have left him with Lily and baby Harry. I don't buy that James suspected Peter. He would have told Sirius if that was the case. And as I already mentioned, I don't think it ever crossed their minds to suspect him.
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Paulus Maximus - Jul 15, 2004 4:19 am (#445 of 528)
I think that if James and Remus had switched, Lily would know.
And when she appeared from Voldemort's wand in the graveyard, she said to Harry "Your father is coming... hold on for your father."
Now, J and R might have pulled a fast one on Lily, or she might have some reason to make Harry think that it was his father... but it seems more likely that James was James and Remus is Remus.
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Weeny Owl - Jul 16, 2004 11:52 am (#446 of 528)
In Dumbledore's office after the Barty Crouch, Jr. confession, Dumbledore is explaining the Priori Incantatem and says it's "An echo which retained Cedric's appearance and character." It also retained the appearance and character of the other victims, and it would seem reasonable to think that James's appearance and character were actually James.
In PoA, Sirius says, "I persuaded Lily and James to change to Peter at the last moment, persuaded them to use him as Secret-Keeper instead of me." Lily and James knew Sirius wasn't their Secret-Keeper and longer, and the change was "at the last moment." Depending on what "at the last moment" means, there wouldn't have been time for an elaborate body switch to occur.
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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Jul 17, 2004 3:12 pm (#447 of 528)
Sometimes known as Kim.
but it seems more likely that James was James and Remus is Remus. --Paulus Maximus
Paulus, the correct phrasing for that theory is: Lupin is Lupin.
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Courtney22 - Jul 17, 2004 8:19 pm (#448 of 528)
Earlier in this thread (I think but am too lazy to double check sorry)Someone said that the fact that no one ever saw Lupin on the Marauders Map was a clue that James and Lupin switched but Snape saw Lupin on the map. Lupin is Lupin.
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Denise P. - Jul 17, 2004 9:02 pm (#449 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Well, Snape never specifically says he saw Lupin on the map, does he?
Lying on your desk was a certain map. One glance at it told me all I needed to know. I saw you running along this passageway and out of sight.
We don't know for a fact what the map showed.
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Courtney22 - Jul 17, 2004 9:37 pm (#450 of 528)
Before he says "you" he specifically calls Lupin by name.
"I've just been in your office Lupin. You forgot to take your potion tonight, so I took a goblet along. And very lucky I did ... lucky for me, I mean. Lying on your desk was a certain map. One glance told me all I need to know. I saw you running along this passage way out of site." p. 358 American hardback ed.
To me that says that he saw Lupin on the passage The rest of the conversation he still refers to him as Lupin which tells me he saw Lupin's name on the map not James.
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Lupin is really James Potter (Post 451 to 500)
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justme - Jul 18, 2004 4:11 pm (#451 of 528)
It seems to me, that Snape would have had a completely different reaction in the Shrieking Shack if he saw "James Potter", instead of "Remus Lupin" on the map, heading down the passage.
I also think that Snape would not have missed the oppurtunity to let Harry know if it was James.
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Gryffindor Ghost - Jul 19, 2004 7:16 am (#452 of 528)
Hello, everyone!
I'm back in this thread after missing, what, 400 posts? Yeah, that would be right. Anyway, the last time I checked on this thread, I thought that it will be closed. But it's still here!
Okay, I know that I missed a lot of posts but I think I'll catch up.
The Marauder's Map shows the people inside, outside, and around Hogwarts exactly as they are, even though they disguise themselves. (An example of this is during that night when Harry saw Barty Crouch, Jr. stealing potions ingredients from Snape's office. Barty Crouch's name was registered on the Marauder's Map even though physically, he was Mad-Eye Moody.) If Lupin was really James Potter, then Harry or Snape would have seen it, right? Because as Lupin and Sirius (God rest his soul) said in the Shrieking Shack, the Marauder's Map never lies, so even if a person is in the physical form of another, the Map will still show his name. (Pettigrew, anyone?)
Oppss, sorry if it's a bit long. I wanted to add some more but I'm really tired right now.
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NYCNomad - Jul 19, 2004 10:09 am (#453 of 528)
I really can't say I'm convinced by that argument. I'm kinda inbetween James being Lupin, being Lupin. I feel that they were, and they changed back, but there was some residual effects. But if the Map shows who people really are, wouldn't it have shown Peter before that year in the 5 years the Weasley twins had it? They would have seen Peter at least once. As for other instances, when it shows Crouch in GoF, he might have been between hours for the polyjuice potion. So he might have been in his real form at that point. And wouldn't Harry have seen Black going into and/or out of the hidden tunnel? Or have seen Black on the map before Ron got abducted?
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Leila 2X4B - Jul 19, 2004 11:58 am (#454 of 528)
I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
I think it has to do with that Harry would have recognized his own father's name. Peter's name would have slipped by unnoticed because, until the middle of PoA, he never heard of it. As for the twins, I think that they would not have been looking Petigrew for the same reason, but Potter is a famous name and would have popped out at anybody. Plus it would not be 5 years, Ron was in his third year when the map came into Harry's possession, by then the Twins knew the map inside out.
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NYCNomad - Jul 20, 2004 5:05 am (#455 of 528)
Even if he didn't recognize the name, he would have recognized it if it was always with him, or in his house, or one of the few people in the school courtyard when nobody else was in sight. He doesn't need to know the name, but he would recognize it as not belonging there.
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Mundane Madness - Jul 20, 2004 8:56 am (#456 of 528)
I myself agree that the Priori Incanetum would show Lupin, if he died in James' body as Lupin. A Switching Spell itself only changes the appearance, I don't think it's magic is powerful enough to change the souls inhabiting bodies, as Harry and his class learn it in the fourth or fifth year. McGonagoll calls the spell simple. Anyway, Voldemort did not want to kill all the Potters, so he would not care if James was still alive. He said that his mother did not have to die, and he told her to stand aside while he killed Harry. James and Lily just stood in his way and he could not move them aside. However, proof for James and Lupin switch is, since I must give credit to all arguments if they are logical. Rowling, on her own site has made comment discrediting many rumors about Harry. She has not touched the Lupin is James one...
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NYCNomad - Jul 20, 2004 1:19 pm (#457 of 528)
Mundane; I have argued myself into confusion regarding Voldemort killing and "not wanting to kill" Lily. This is the wrong thread for that, but I have stated some thoughts in his thread. Or maybe it was the Lily and James thread... I am so confused..
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Mundane Madness - Jul 20, 2004 4:07 pm (#458 of 528)
I am just offering my arguement, against the theory, becuase I believe the thread starter said that Lupin could not reveal himself as James because Voldemort wanted to kill all of the Potters, and I'm offering proof that he did not, so I don't see any reason for James to hide.
Also, I am now sure that Voldemort did nto want to kill the Potters. Even though he could have told Harry hsi mother did not have to die, but Voldemort has no reason to lie. It could be that as Hagrid said, he liked killign by then, but Voldemort does nto seem insane or a sadist to me, he is power-hungry to extreme extents, but the sadist torture and murder seems to lie in hs Death Eaters. (Bellatrix Lestrange)
Sorry if this is off topic.
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Courtney22 - Jul 20, 2004 5:28 pm (#459 of 528)
I would like to add that what man would want to leave his wife and child in a time of crisis? If someone where after my family it wouldn't matter if my life were in danger or if I lived or died, all that would matter for me was my significant other and child. Why would James save his own hide and leave his wife and kid to possibly die. I'd rather die trying to protect them than run for any reason.
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Leila 2X4B - Jul 20, 2004 6:35 pm (#460 of 528)
I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
NYCNomad -, the reason that I said since Harry didn't know the name, he wouldn't have recognized it is because Harry isn't very observant. He forgot who the Lestrange's between the GoF and OotP. If he weren't looking for it, he might not have noticed it. James Potter would stand out to him because it was his father, as Barty Crouch did because his behavior was so eccentric to Harry at the time.
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Mundane Madness - Jul 20, 2004 6:49 pm (#461 of 528)
THE MARUADER MAP!!!!
It knew that Petigrew was scabbers, and it would show remus as JAmes if that were the case...
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Landman - Aug 7, 2004 1:09 pm (#462 of 528)
Because Pettigrew is Scabbers -- the same reason it would show the Werewolf as Lupin (and not James.)
The Map knows when the body changes, but doesn't know about the soul or spirit living inside the body.
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weasley by nature - Aug 8, 2004 8:08 pm (#463 of 528)
ahhh! I HATE this theory!
1) How did DD get James' Invisibility Cloak, and how did Hagrid get the key to the Potter's vault? These could just be Flints, James could've given these things to Dumbledore before he died, or Dumbledore could've retrieved these objects from their house after James died.
2)Unlke everyone else, Lupin never stared at Harry's scar or mentioned his eyes or resemblance to James (when he met him the first time.) Lupin acts like he already knows Harry. (PoA - Chapter 5): Lupin could realize that it must be annoying to be reminded constantly about your dead parents or it could just be showing that he is a reserved person and doesn't say things that don't need to be said. The reason that Lupin "acts like he already knows Harry," which I don't totally buy in the first place, is that he knew James well and Harry strongly reminds him of James. Also many times he does not act like he already knows Harry, he acts like a teacher when he takes away the map from Harry, for example.
3)Lupin seems to be able to read Harry's mind (PoA - chapter
: Okay why would James be more able to read Harry's mind than Lupin? My parents have never been able to read my mind. He is simply deducing, or, if you want to find a strange reason, performing Leglimency. Dumbledore and Snape are also referred to as reading his mind and they can't be James too.
4)Harry tells Lupin that when a dementor gets near him, he hears his mum being murdered by Voldemort. On hearing this, Lupin had made "a sudden motion with his arm, as though to grip Harry's shoulder, but thought better of it." (Chapter 10) [There's no reason why Lupin should stop himself from just gripping Harry's arm unless he wants to distance himself emotionally from Harry.]: I admit, I don't know why he wouldn't grip his arm, but maybe it is just because Lupin is shy and also doesn't want Harry to feel uncomfortable or feel as if Lupin has sympathy for him. Also it isn't a normal teacher-student relationship and Lupin may want to remain professional. If he wanted to distance himself emotionally why would he agree to giving Harry one-on-one lessons in the first place?
5)Trelawney said that Lupin "positively fled when I offered to crystal gaze for him" (Chapter 11) [He's obviously afraid of exposing something besides being a werewolf - since the whole staff already knew that.]: Everyone knows that Trelawney is a fraud and I doubt Trelawney's gazing would show anything. Trelawney would be predicting his future also, not seeing his past, so I don't see why this would reveal that he was James.
6)When Harry tells Lupin he is hearing his mum's voice louder, Lupin looks "paler than usual." Harry then tells Lupin how he hears his dad's voice for the first time trying to hold off Voldemort so his mother could escape. "'You heard James?' said Lupin in a strange voice." (Chapter 12): James and Lily were is friends and he is talking to a kid who lost their parents. Of course he would be emotionally distraught when reminded of his friends' death. While this doesn't prove that Lupin isn't James, it definitely isn't evidence that he is.
7)Professor Lupin, who was "both shaken and pleased," comes over to congratulate Harry on his spectacular Patronus. (Chapter 13) [He was shaken from seeing his own Patronus - the Stag.]: Or because Harry just got attacked by what he thought were dementors and made a good patronous thanks to Lupin's training. Also he knows that James was a Stag too, der, so he could be "shaken" by that.
"I certainly don't want Harry dead..." "An odd shiver passed over his face." (Chapter 17) [That's not just a teacher or friend saying that.]: It's a man who feels deeply about his best friend's son whom is his best and favorite student. It is also a man who knows about the prophecy, presumably, that if Harry dies Voldemort may not be able to be defeated.
9)Lupin: "Now that we could all transform." (Chapter 18) [ Why wouldn't he say "Now that they could all transform"?: Lupin transforms also, he transforms into a werewolf by force, he doesn't say now that we could all become animagi.
10)Lupin has "no hesitation" about what Harry's father would think (Chapter 18) [Why is he so sure about what Harry's father would think?]: Because he was extremely close with James. Maybe James mentioned things that would imply what he would feel.
11)Lupin's first name is Remus - the legendary wolf-child who was murdered by his brother or his brother's followers (such as Pettigrew?): Remus is a reference that he is a werewolf. Also if you think everything about the name applies then where does James' brother fit into the equation?
12) What would be the point of the Fidelius Charm if you are entrusting all three people that are suspected? Sirius knew Peter was the Secret Keeper, Peter knew where the Potters were, and Lupin was in the body of James and could reveal where they were (I assume) plus could curse Lily&Harry while in the house.
13) So in order for this theory to be true, Snape has to know that James is in Remus' body, right? First, why would Snape not have said anything to Fudge or Dumbledore? Second, wouldn't he realize that the whole Sirius betrayed James theory doesn't make any sense anymore because why would James try to kill Harry? I don't buy that it doesn't show the spirit, that's the same thing. There's spirit and form, it doesn't show form therefore it must show spirit.
If anyone could address #12 and 13 it would be helpful because for me it shows that this theory is not just unlikely but false. If 12&13 are gone though then there's no reason to dismiss this theory, even though it is definitely not what I want to happen in the books.
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Ann - Aug 8, 2004 8:25 pm (#464 of 528)
I'm not fond of this theory either, partly because the "evidence" seems so trivial and explicable by Lupin's friendship with James. I think JKR would have given far more solid clues than she has if this theory were correct.
For example, the heading post says, "James and Lupin, using a Switching Spell, probably performed by Lily, switched identities as one last precaution to protect the Potter line. Remember that Voldemort wants to extinguish all Potters." But does anyone ever mention doing switching spells on entire bodies? If it were possible, why would there be the multiple references to polyjuice potion? If it were possible to switch bodies, wouldn't Crouch Jr. have switched with Moody, rather than having to brew that complicated glop and drink it every hour?
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Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 8, 2004 8:29 pm (#465 of 528)
Well, I think the best evidence against this theory is JKR's quotes on the various other "parentage" theories: that we've been watching too much Star Wars. I really don't think JKR is going to go for the cheap thrill of bringing characters back from the dead.
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The Artful Dodger - Aug 9, 2004 2:59 am (#466 of 528)
Another quote from JKR (found on the chat transcript thread):
kylie: What does the "J" in Remus J Lupin stand for? JK Rowling replies -> 'John'. Boring but true!
Crushes to pieces one of the key arguments brought forward by supporters of this theory (and as I see it, destroys the theory as a whole).
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Denise P. - Aug 9, 2004 7:12 am (#467 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
How is Lupin's middle name being John crush anything to do with this theory? His middle name could be Horatio and it would have no bearing on the theory at all.
Switching spells are mentioned briefly but never explained. It could be possible to switch bodies. As with many of the points brought forward with this theory, it comes down to speculation based on the evidence at hand.
Much as some would like to ignore it or discount it, there is some evidence to suggest the possibility that this theory could have happened.
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Loopy Lupin - Aug 9, 2004 7:36 am (#468 of 528)
I have been as ardent a detractor to this theory as I am an adherent to the Harry/Pansy 'ship. Nevertheless, I must agree with Denise 100%. What does the "J" in Remus "J" have to do with anything? Unlike Denise, however, I ask because I'm very interested in anything that may, as you say Artful Doger, crush this theory to pieces.
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NYCNomad - Aug 9, 2004 10:55 am (#469 of 528)
Loopy, you really think Pansy and Harry? Sorry for going off the topic here, but is there any evidence for that? (I'm asking so I know how deeply I need to read the appropreate threads) Jeeze, I can't spell today!!
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Ann - Aug 9, 2004 10:57 am (#470 of 528)
I would agree with Denise that whether Lupin's J means John or James doesn't make much difference. (Unless, perhaps, JKR dislikes this theory as much as many of us do, and was trying to put a spoke in at least one bit of it.)
It is also true, as Denise says, that there is probably a lot of stuff in the Wizarding World that we don't know about, and just because a spell hasn't been mentioned doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
The real argument against this theory is outside the Wizarding World, however, and in the world of composition. JKR is a fantastic writer when it comes to laying the groundwork for her plot twists. Were she to plan something as major as a James-Lupin switch, it would be cleverly foreshadowed, probably from the very beginning of the series, so that once we knew it was true, there would be all sorts of bits that would pop out at us and we would say "oh--that's what that meant!" Think of the discovery that James, Sirius, and Peter were animagi: we immediately thought back to PS/SS "Of course! James' wand was good for transfiguration! Scabbers didn't turn yellow when Ron tried to use a spell that mentioned 'this fat rat'!"
But obviously people who follow the Lupin-is-James theory have gone through the books with fine-toothed combs, and they have found no foreshadowings in them that would provoke that reaction--at least not in me. The fact that Lupin is fond of Harry does not make him his father, no matter how much we might want to see them reunited.
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The Artful Dodger - Aug 9, 2004 11:02 am (#471 of 528)
The guys who wrote the Harry Potter guide suspected that the J would stand for James and interpreted this as a big clue for Lupin being James Potter. The quote proves that they were wrong. That's what I mean when I say "crushes to pieces one of the key arguments". Besides, I believe that Jo knew about the theory. I think that's why she says "boring, but true", hinting that the theory the fans made up is interesting, but wrong. That's what makes me believe that her quote destroys the theory.
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Loopy Lupin - Aug 9, 2004 11:14 am (#472 of 528)
Loopy, you really think Pansy and Harry?-- NYCNomad
Nomad, please check out the "Harry's 'ship uniting the Houses" thread. Perhaps that thread is not named so well, but Harry/Pansy is the topic there.
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NYCNomad - Aug 9, 2004 12:27 pm (#473 of 528)
Thanks Loopy.
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timrew - Aug 10, 2004 3:49 pm (#474 of 528)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
You know what really puts me off about this theory? That there are only two books to go.
JKR will have enough explaining to do in the next two books about prophecies, wands, Death Eaters and good guys, why everyone has a time-turner - and what their animaguses are. Plus the reason why Dumbledore is the Giant Squid, and why Filch, Petunia, Arabella Figg, Dudley or Vernon are introduced to magic late in life.
And then also why Sirius comes back from the dead, or was never dead in the first place, or appears as a ghost.....or as a portrait.
And how Mundungus/Krum/or anyone else with red hair (this could include the whole Weasley family)is Crookshanks in animagus form.
And there again (to go back to an earlier theory), how everybody has a time-turner, and is flitting backwards and forwards in time continually, for no reason whatsoever, but to see if they are indeed Crookshanks, or Mark Evans, or Aberforth Dumbledore - who may be the landlord of (I can't remember the name of the pub right now, and I don't care) - so don't tell me!
Plus, why Snape is the father of Mark Evans: has never had a relationship in his life (except with Gina ): is a vampire: is a bat animagus: wears Nike trainers and goes jogging in Central Park (okay, I made that one up).
And to end......is Dumbledore in a relationship with McGonagall? How many kids do they have: how many of them are squids, and how many are kids?
The list goes on.....keep theorising, Forum Folk!!
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Leila 2X4B - Aug 10, 2004 6:36 pm (#475 of 528)
I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
...and thus Tim SPEWS again. I couldn't have thought it better myself. This theory is just so....what is the word I am looking for?...Hollywood?
Leila
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timrew - Aug 11, 2004 4:17 pm (#476 of 528)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I think SPEW is the word you're looking for, Sleeping Beauty
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Land of the Shire - Aug 13, 2004 11:33 pm (#477 of 528)
Let's assume for a moment that this theory is true.
It was explained that there was a traitor among the Marauders, and that all were aware of it, but the identity was uncertain. Remember that in PoA, in the Shrieking Shack, Sirius tells Lupin that he suspected Lupin was the traitor (Lupin replied that he suspected Sirius, but more on that later). Therefore, Sirius would have been unaware of the switch, as it would be totally ridiculous to suspect James would turn himself in to Voldemort (or turn Remus in, or something).
Now, what was going through James' mind? Since he had originally planned on Sirius as the Secret-Keeper (and changed at Sirius' request), he could not have suspected Sirius as the traitor. Since he agreed to invest his safety in Peter, he could not have suspected Peter as the traitor. That only leaves Lupin.
Why on earth would he switch bodies with someone he suspects as a traitor?
The theory just does not hold water when you examine the particular circumstances of the time leading up to the attack on Godric's hollow.
I hate this theory.
What really bothers me about it is that it seems so well-researched. So many textual examples, so many seemingly thoughtful arguments. Yet there is no logic involved, no hard evidence, only insinuations and eisegesis. Furthermore, there is no point to this theory. If it were true, it would not lead to any truth, nor would it advance the core story in any meaningful way. It would only confuse and frustrate readers, please critics, and be even more unfair to Harry.
This has led to a problem refuting this theory: we try to refute their arguments one-by-one instead of finding a concrete counter-argument. This was my attempt. I hope someone asks this tomorrow at the Q&A session in Edinburgh.
And ten points to me for using "eisegesis" in a sentence.
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Ann - Aug 14, 2004 6:21 am (#478 of 528)
And ten points to me for using "eisegesis" in a sentence. Do you mean exegesis? But that usually implies a fairly solid argument based on textual evidence, which, I agree with you, this theory doesn't have! Your point is very well taken. It's all wishful thinking--and while Harry would probably be happy to get his father back (even as a werewolf), I'm not sure he'd be happy at all to lose Lupin. But I can't believe it is going to happen.
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secret keeper - Aug 15, 2004 6:37 pm (#479 of 528)
This is a very interesting theory Landman. Hopefully this will prove to be more than just a theory in the future.
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Loopy Lupin - Aug 15, 2004 8:11 pm (#480 of 528)
Let's assume for a moment that this theory is true.--Land of the Shire
Why the bloody hell would you want to do that?
Seriously, once again, tim reaffirms his place as the King of Spew. Someone should frame that as a stunning parody of our rampant speculations.
Another way of putting it (not really, but I was struggling for a transition and that one will do) is that Lupin can't be James Potter because its been done before, more than a couple of times actually. Quirrel wasn't who he seemed to be what with LV sticking out of his head. Just when you thought it was safe to go back to DADA class, the professor turns out, it seems, to be evil again . But not really, Moody just isn't himself, literally. He's a Death Eater who's been in disguise for the past 10 months with PJ potion. And then, of course, everyone's favorite rat, it turns out, was a man, baby! Now lest that sounds like criticism of JKR, let me say that I found all of those twists well done, and surprising for different reasons. But, that is quite enough with the people turning out to be someone else. Surely, JKR won't go to this well again.
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Land of the Shire - Aug 15, 2004 8:52 pm (#481 of 528)
"Eisegesis" is precisely the opposite of "exegesis." Whereas "exegesis" is a sound analysis based on textual evidence, "eisegesis" is reading into something what you want to read, based on your prejudices and not necessarily on what's actually there.
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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Aug 15, 2004 8:55 pm (#482 of 528)
Sometimes known as Kim.
Why the bloody hell would you want to do that? --Loopy Lupin
LOL I couldn't agree more Loopy.
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Ann - Aug 15, 2004 9:34 pm (#483 of 528)
Land of the Shire, that's a perfect description of what this theory does! Thank you--I'd never run into the word. (And I even checked it in the dictionary to make sure I wasn't mistaken!) Grovelling apologies! And, I would say a good 20 points to your house!
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Paulus Maximus - Aug 16, 2004 1:12 am (#484 of 528)
Ah... another Greek scholar... Excellent!
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Fawkes Forever - Aug 16, 2004 6:16 am (#485 of 528)
Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
Tim : ".... or Aberforth Dumbledore - who may be the landlord of (I can't remember the name of the pub right now, and I don't care) - so don't tell me!"
Whadaya know Tim... we where right.... *shock horror & amazement*
JKR at the Edinburgh Book Festival (aug 15th 2004)
Q : Why is the barman of the Hog's Head vaguely familiar to Harry? Is he Dumbledores brother?
JK : Ooh - you are getting good. Why do you think that it is Aberforth? [Audience member : Various clues. He smells of goats and he looks a bit like Dumbledore]. I was quite proud of that clue. That is all that I am going to say. [Laughter]. Well yes, obviously. I like the goat clue - I sniggered to myself about that one.
Hmm, so what else did you say Tim.... everyone has a time turner & appear to be Crookshanks at one time or another..... hmmm, interesting... very interesting ...
Hows about... Lily is really Hedwig... now there's a plausible story line *Fawkes wanders off to loo-la land to have tea with Luna*
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Loopy Lupin - Aug 16, 2004 6:21 am (#486 of 528)
Lily is really Hedwig-- Fawkes Forever
Hey! Don't steal my thread ideas!!!
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Fawkes Forever - Aug 16, 2004 6:22 am (#487 of 528)
Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
Whoops... didn't know you'd already come up with that one... sorry Loopy.... just goes to show ya... great minds think alike... or insane minds anyways...
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Loopy Lupin - Aug 16, 2004 6:35 am (#488 of 528)
No, I was just kidding. However, if someone starts "Lavendar is Really Parvati," I will be enraged.
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Denise P. - Aug 16, 2004 5:01 pm (#489 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Edited Aug 17, 2004 8:53 am
People are free to agree or disagree with a theory as they like. They are not free to turn a thread into a place to ridicule a theory or encourage behavior that is not acceptable on the Forum. Think about it.
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Fawkes Forever - Aug 17, 2004 6:41 am (#490 of 528)
Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
Whoops sorry Denise, I didn't mean to discourage anyones theories... I was just trying to point out that in the crazy world of Harry Potter, just about anything is possible (ie. Aberforth being the barman at the Hogshead). Sorry if I caused any offence to anyone... *hangs head in shame & slopes off to iron hands... naughty Fawkes*
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Loopy Lupin - Aug 17, 2004 7:09 am (#491 of 528)
Whoops here too. I do think that tim's post made perfectly good points, humorously, but perfectly valid points nonetheless.
But, looking back, I crossed the line a few posts back with a post that had no point to make other than being snide. Sorry about that. I'm not likely to be convinced of this theory, but I'll refrain from expressing myself unless I have something constructive to say.
**goes of borrow Fawkes' iron**
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Hermy-own - Aug 17, 2004 11:48 am (#492 of 528)
S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
Wow! I've just read this theory for the first time and have to say its very impressive. Particularly the idea of James and Remus using a switching charm as a form of protection from LV.
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timrew - Aug 18, 2004 2:32 pm (#493 of 528)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Apologies Denise! I don't think this theory holds water; but you're right. I went 'over the top' with my post.
Although I did not mean to hold the theory to ridicule, on reading my post again, it looks that way. Sorry!
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Aud Duck - Aug 29, 2004 9:30 pm (#494 of 528)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
All of Lupin's behaviour can be explained by his personality and his connection to James as a best friend.
Lupin's behaviour on the train:
1. You don't comment on a kid's parentage when he has just recovered from a collapse brought on by dementors.
2. Harry is famous. Lupin realizes that he must be getting sick of fame and refrains from comment on his scar. Common courtesy.
3. He does not stare at the scar because he is, by now, accustomed to it. After he got rid of the dementors, he would have had ample time to survey Harry and note the scar before Harry came round. And that's even assuming that he was asleep for the whole first part of the train ride.
The almost grip of Harry's shoulder
1. We consider Lupin's not gripping Harry's shoulder strange because we are accustomed to a different sort of character. Hagrid and Mrs. Weasely are the sort that get on familiar terms with people very quickly.
2. Lupin is a werewolf. He is accustomed to being shunned and therefore not all that confident. He has come to expect people to not want him around.
3. Though, for reasons explained below, Lupin feels like he knows Harry, he realizes that he does not. He has not seen Harry in years (assuming that he has seen Harry at all; JKR's comment about only Sirius being there for the baptism makes me doubt this). People as reserved as Lupin woudn't reassuringly grip the shoulder of a 13-year-old boy that they hardly knew.
Lupin acts like he already knows Harry.
1. Harry looks like James, even down to the glasses. He probably inherited his father's posture and many of his mannerisms. That would be very spooky.
2. Far more importantly, Lupin shares Harry's tragedy. Both of them lost everyone they had on the night Voldemort killed Harry's parents. Most people rejoice about it because that was the night Voldemort was destroyed. Since Sirius is still assumed a traitor, Harry is the only person alive that was affected by it the way Lupin was. Harry doesn't fully understand that this was the case. Lupin does, and sharing something that powerful would make you feel close even to a complete stranger.
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Catherine - Sep 25, 2004 3:14 pm (#495 of 528)
Canon Seeker
It's a creative theory, I'll give everyone that much.
I've even reread the books with this theory in mind, trying to find any shred of evidence that Lupin is James.
The shrieking shack scene clinches it for me. Snape saw the Marauder's Map, and still referred to Sirius and Lupin by their names. In OoP, the animosity seems to be totally between Sirius and Snape.
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Prefect Marcus - Sep 25, 2004 6:11 pm (#496 of 528)
"Anyone can cook"
I have never understood the big mystery on the train of Remus knowing Harry's name. Harry wakes up with Ron and Hermione calling him by name. So even a total stranger who knows nothing about Harry, his scar, or his parentage would know his name.
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Catherine - Sep 25, 2004 6:14 pm (#497 of 528)
Canon Seeker
Yep, Marcus, there is that.
Yet one more piece of evidence "bites the dust."
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Phoenix song - Sep 25, 2004 10:25 pm (#498 of 528)
Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
Please bear with me as I put some thoughts down, and let me know if you think that they also discount this theory.
The reason that Lupin was not chosen as Secret Keeper originally for the Potters is that they believed that Lupin was the spy for Voldemort. If they believed this theory, WHY would Lily have willingly switched James and Remus?
If Remus had died in James' place, then it means that James is still alive in Lupin's body. Why would he have never come forward to explain the switch? It would have appeared that he would have at least have informed Dumbledore.
It would also seem as if James would have informed Dumbledore that the switch had been made from Sirius as the secret keeper to Pettigrew. If James had been alive, then he would have known that it was Peter who had betrayed them. He wouldn't have allowed Sirius to go to Azkaban for their murders, as he would have known that it was Peter who held the secret. "I persuaded Lily and James to change to Peter at the last moment, persuaded them to use him as Secret Keeper instead of me..." (PoA, Ch. 19, pg. 365) Lupin was also quite surprised to see Peter's name on the Marauder's Map. He was fully convinced that Sirius was the one who was the Secret Keeper for the Potters. If Lupin were James, then he would have known who the real secret keeper was.
A man is alive, (yet in another's body), but his wife and best friend have been murdered and his son is sent to live with estranged relatives. The murderer has vanished, but is believed to still be alive and waiting for the chance to return. What man would not have set out to find and destroy Voldemort even if it did cost him his life? Especially since that life now contains the pain of mourning, being removed from his only child, and the painful monthly transformations into a werewolf?
James was a wealthy man. Lupin is obviously struggling to survive. If James were alive he would certainly still feel entitled to his own money.
Lupin refers to getting bitten in his youth: "None of this could have happened if I hadn't been bitten...and if I hadn't been so foolhardy..." (PoA, Ch. 18, pg. 352) Surely if he were really James trapped in Sirius' body he wouldn't have the first person memory of Lupin being bitten as a child.
Lupin also carries a great deal of guilt for what he considers to be his betrayals of DD's trust. He feels guilty that he prowled through the town as a wolf when DD went through so much effort to allow him to attend school. James as Lupin wouldn't have felt the remorse that Lupin felt for being so reckless. James was an adventurous and reckless young man, and I don't see him feeling guilty about their escapades. Lupin alone could have understood the risk that DD took in allowing him to attend Hogwarts. Lupin alone would feel the remorse for taking advantage of DD's compassion.
I hope that I've made some sense here. Please let me know if I'm mistaken in any of these points. I like this theory and the discussion on it.
Barbie
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Loopy Lupin - Sep 26, 2004 9:53 am (#499 of 528)
Phoenix,
For someone relatively new to the Forum, you have come to grasp every reason why I cannot buy this theory with startling quickness. Good for you. To be sure, there are quite a few who can defend it just as well, but I'm not one of them.
I think, correct me if I'm wrong anyone, that this theory comes from the Ultimate Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter. (The title is something like that.) If you've never heard of that book Phoenix, its worth skimming over at the bookstore. Maybe you'll buy it maybe not.
Marcus!!! Well, as I live and breath. Where have you been!!! Thread unattended, car gone, no note! I've been worried sick!
Cya
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Choices - Sep 26, 2004 10:29 am (#500 of 528)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Lupin is James is an interesting theory, but in GOP it says....."Your father's coming..." she (Lily) said quietly. "Hold on for your father...." Then...."And he came....first his head, then his body....tall and untidy-haired like Harry, the smoky, shadowy form of James Potter blossomed from the end of Voldemort's wand, fell to the ground, and straightened like his wife." Now, these shadows of people that were killed by Voldemort seem to be very aware of what is happening and they know each other, so if James wasn't really James, then I think Lily would have known and not referred to him as "Your father" to Harry. It specifically says it was James Potter (and describes him) who emerged from the wand tip, so I think that pretty much cinches that argument.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
It seems to me, that Snape would have had a completely different reaction in the Shrieking Shack if he saw "James Potter", instead of "Remus Lupin" on the map, heading down the passage.
I also think that Snape would not have missed the oppurtunity to let Harry know if it was James.
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Gryffindor Ghost - Jul 19, 2004 7:16 am (#452 of 528)
Hello, everyone!
I'm back in this thread after missing, what, 400 posts? Yeah, that would be right. Anyway, the last time I checked on this thread, I thought that it will be closed. But it's still here!
Okay, I know that I missed a lot of posts but I think I'll catch up.
The Marauder's Map shows the people inside, outside, and around Hogwarts exactly as they are, even though they disguise themselves. (An example of this is during that night when Harry saw Barty Crouch, Jr. stealing potions ingredients from Snape's office. Barty Crouch's name was registered on the Marauder's Map even though physically, he was Mad-Eye Moody.) If Lupin was really James Potter, then Harry or Snape would have seen it, right? Because as Lupin and Sirius (God rest his soul) said in the Shrieking Shack, the Marauder's Map never lies, so even if a person is in the physical form of another, the Map will still show his name. (Pettigrew, anyone?)
Oppss, sorry if it's a bit long. I wanted to add some more but I'm really tired right now.
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NYCNomad - Jul 19, 2004 10:09 am (#453 of 528)
I really can't say I'm convinced by that argument. I'm kinda inbetween James being Lupin, being Lupin. I feel that they were, and they changed back, but there was some residual effects. But if the Map shows who people really are, wouldn't it have shown Peter before that year in the 5 years the Weasley twins had it? They would have seen Peter at least once. As for other instances, when it shows Crouch in GoF, he might have been between hours for the polyjuice potion. So he might have been in his real form at that point. And wouldn't Harry have seen Black going into and/or out of the hidden tunnel? Or have seen Black on the map before Ron got abducted?
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Leila 2X4B - Jul 19, 2004 11:58 am (#454 of 528)
I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
I think it has to do with that Harry would have recognized his own father's name. Peter's name would have slipped by unnoticed because, until the middle of PoA, he never heard of it. As for the twins, I think that they would not have been looking Petigrew for the same reason, but Potter is a famous name and would have popped out at anybody. Plus it would not be 5 years, Ron was in his third year when the map came into Harry's possession, by then the Twins knew the map inside out.
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NYCNomad - Jul 20, 2004 5:05 am (#455 of 528)
Even if he didn't recognize the name, he would have recognized it if it was always with him, or in his house, or one of the few people in the school courtyard when nobody else was in sight. He doesn't need to know the name, but he would recognize it as not belonging there.
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Mundane Madness - Jul 20, 2004 8:56 am (#456 of 528)
I myself agree that the Priori Incanetum would show Lupin, if he died in James' body as Lupin. A Switching Spell itself only changes the appearance, I don't think it's magic is powerful enough to change the souls inhabiting bodies, as Harry and his class learn it in the fourth or fifth year. McGonagoll calls the spell simple. Anyway, Voldemort did not want to kill all the Potters, so he would not care if James was still alive. He said that his mother did not have to die, and he told her to stand aside while he killed Harry. James and Lily just stood in his way and he could not move them aside. However, proof for James and Lupin switch is, since I must give credit to all arguments if they are logical. Rowling, on her own site has made comment discrediting many rumors about Harry. She has not touched the Lupin is James one...
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NYCNomad - Jul 20, 2004 1:19 pm (#457 of 528)
Mundane; I have argued myself into confusion regarding Voldemort killing and "not wanting to kill" Lily. This is the wrong thread for that, but I have stated some thoughts in his thread. Or maybe it was the Lily and James thread... I am so confused..
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Mundane Madness - Jul 20, 2004 4:07 pm (#458 of 528)
I am just offering my arguement, against the theory, becuase I believe the thread starter said that Lupin could not reveal himself as James because Voldemort wanted to kill all of the Potters, and I'm offering proof that he did not, so I don't see any reason for James to hide.
Also, I am now sure that Voldemort did nto want to kill the Potters. Even though he could have told Harry hsi mother did not have to die, but Voldemort has no reason to lie. It could be that as Hagrid said, he liked killign by then, but Voldemort does nto seem insane or a sadist to me, he is power-hungry to extreme extents, but the sadist torture and murder seems to lie in hs Death Eaters. (Bellatrix Lestrange)
Sorry if this is off topic.
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Courtney22 - Jul 20, 2004 5:28 pm (#459 of 528)
I would like to add that what man would want to leave his wife and child in a time of crisis? If someone where after my family it wouldn't matter if my life were in danger or if I lived or died, all that would matter for me was my significant other and child. Why would James save his own hide and leave his wife and kid to possibly die. I'd rather die trying to protect them than run for any reason.
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Leila 2X4B - Jul 20, 2004 6:35 pm (#460 of 528)
I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
NYCNomad -, the reason that I said since Harry didn't know the name, he wouldn't have recognized it is because Harry isn't very observant. He forgot who the Lestrange's between the GoF and OotP. If he weren't looking for it, he might not have noticed it. James Potter would stand out to him because it was his father, as Barty Crouch did because his behavior was so eccentric to Harry at the time.
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Mundane Madness - Jul 20, 2004 6:49 pm (#461 of 528)
THE MARUADER MAP!!!!
It knew that Petigrew was scabbers, and it would show remus as JAmes if that were the case...
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Landman - Aug 7, 2004 1:09 pm (#462 of 528)
Because Pettigrew is Scabbers -- the same reason it would show the Werewolf as Lupin (and not James.)
The Map knows when the body changes, but doesn't know about the soul or spirit living inside the body.
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weasley by nature - Aug 8, 2004 8:08 pm (#463 of 528)
ahhh! I HATE this theory!
1) How did DD get James' Invisibility Cloak, and how did Hagrid get the key to the Potter's vault? These could just be Flints, James could've given these things to Dumbledore before he died, or Dumbledore could've retrieved these objects from their house after James died.
2)Unlke everyone else, Lupin never stared at Harry's scar or mentioned his eyes or resemblance to James (when he met him the first time.) Lupin acts like he already knows Harry. (PoA - Chapter 5): Lupin could realize that it must be annoying to be reminded constantly about your dead parents or it could just be showing that he is a reserved person and doesn't say things that don't need to be said. The reason that Lupin "acts like he already knows Harry," which I don't totally buy in the first place, is that he knew James well and Harry strongly reminds him of James. Also many times he does not act like he already knows Harry, he acts like a teacher when he takes away the map from Harry, for example.
3)Lupin seems to be able to read Harry's mind (PoA - chapter
: Okay why would James be more able to read Harry's mind than Lupin? My parents have never been able to read my mind. He is simply deducing, or, if you want to find a strange reason, performing Leglimency. Dumbledore and Snape are also referred to as reading his mind and they can't be James too. 4)Harry tells Lupin that when a dementor gets near him, he hears his mum being murdered by Voldemort. On hearing this, Lupin had made "a sudden motion with his arm, as though to grip Harry's shoulder, but thought better of it." (Chapter 10) [There's no reason why Lupin should stop himself from just gripping Harry's arm unless he wants to distance himself emotionally from Harry.]: I admit, I don't know why he wouldn't grip his arm, but maybe it is just because Lupin is shy and also doesn't want Harry to feel uncomfortable or feel as if Lupin has sympathy for him. Also it isn't a normal teacher-student relationship and Lupin may want to remain professional. If he wanted to distance himself emotionally why would he agree to giving Harry one-on-one lessons in the first place?
5)Trelawney said that Lupin "positively fled when I offered to crystal gaze for him" (Chapter 11) [He's obviously afraid of exposing something besides being a werewolf - since the whole staff already knew that.]: Everyone knows that Trelawney is a fraud and I doubt Trelawney's gazing would show anything. Trelawney would be predicting his future also, not seeing his past, so I don't see why this would reveal that he was James.
6)When Harry tells Lupin he is hearing his mum's voice louder, Lupin looks "paler than usual." Harry then tells Lupin how he hears his dad's voice for the first time trying to hold off Voldemort so his mother could escape. "'You heard James?' said Lupin in a strange voice." (Chapter 12): James and Lily were is friends and he is talking to a kid who lost their parents. Of course he would be emotionally distraught when reminded of his friends' death. While this doesn't prove that Lupin isn't James, it definitely isn't evidence that he is.
7)Professor Lupin, who was "both shaken and pleased," comes over to congratulate Harry on his spectacular Patronus. (Chapter 13) [He was shaken from seeing his own Patronus - the Stag.]: Or because Harry just got attacked by what he thought were dementors and made a good patronous thanks to Lupin's training. Also he knows that James was a Stag too, der, so he could be "shaken" by that.
"I certainly don't want Harry dead..." "An odd shiver passed over his face." (Chapter 17) [That's not just a teacher or friend saying that.]: It's a man who feels deeply about his best friend's son whom is his best and favorite student. It is also a man who knows about the prophecy, presumably, that if Harry dies Voldemort may not be able to be defeated. 9)Lupin: "Now that we could all transform." (Chapter 18) [ Why wouldn't he say "Now that they could all transform"?: Lupin transforms also, he transforms into a werewolf by force, he doesn't say now that we could all become animagi.
10)Lupin has "no hesitation" about what Harry's father would think (Chapter 18) [Why is he so sure about what Harry's father would think?]: Because he was extremely close with James. Maybe James mentioned things that would imply what he would feel.
11)Lupin's first name is Remus - the legendary wolf-child who was murdered by his brother or his brother's followers (such as Pettigrew?): Remus is a reference that he is a werewolf. Also if you think everything about the name applies then where does James' brother fit into the equation?
12) What would be the point of the Fidelius Charm if you are entrusting all three people that are suspected? Sirius knew Peter was the Secret Keeper, Peter knew where the Potters were, and Lupin was in the body of James and could reveal where they were (I assume) plus could curse Lily&Harry while in the house.
13) So in order for this theory to be true, Snape has to know that James is in Remus' body, right? First, why would Snape not have said anything to Fudge or Dumbledore? Second, wouldn't he realize that the whole Sirius betrayed James theory doesn't make any sense anymore because why would James try to kill Harry? I don't buy that it doesn't show the spirit, that's the same thing. There's spirit and form, it doesn't show form therefore it must show spirit.
If anyone could address #12 and 13 it would be helpful because for me it shows that this theory is not just unlikely but false. If 12&13 are gone though then there's no reason to dismiss this theory, even though it is definitely not what I want to happen in the books.
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Ann - Aug 8, 2004 8:25 pm (#464 of 528)
I'm not fond of this theory either, partly because the "evidence" seems so trivial and explicable by Lupin's friendship with James. I think JKR would have given far more solid clues than she has if this theory were correct.
For example, the heading post says, "James and Lupin, using a Switching Spell, probably performed by Lily, switched identities as one last precaution to protect the Potter line. Remember that Voldemort wants to extinguish all Potters." But does anyone ever mention doing switching spells on entire bodies? If it were possible, why would there be the multiple references to polyjuice potion? If it were possible to switch bodies, wouldn't Crouch Jr. have switched with Moody, rather than having to brew that complicated glop and drink it every hour?
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Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 8, 2004 8:29 pm (#465 of 528)
Well, I think the best evidence against this theory is JKR's quotes on the various other "parentage" theories: that we've been watching too much Star Wars. I really don't think JKR is going to go for the cheap thrill of bringing characters back from the dead.
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The Artful Dodger - Aug 9, 2004 2:59 am (#466 of 528)
Another quote from JKR (found on the chat transcript thread):
kylie: What does the "J" in Remus J Lupin stand for? JK Rowling replies -> 'John'. Boring but true!
Crushes to pieces one of the key arguments brought forward by supporters of this theory (and as I see it, destroys the theory as a whole).
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Denise P. - Aug 9, 2004 7:12 am (#467 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
How is Lupin's middle name being John crush anything to do with this theory? His middle name could be Horatio and it would have no bearing on the theory at all.
Switching spells are mentioned briefly but never explained. It could be possible to switch bodies. As with many of the points brought forward with this theory, it comes down to speculation based on the evidence at hand.
Much as some would like to ignore it or discount it, there is some evidence to suggest the possibility that this theory could have happened.
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Loopy Lupin - Aug 9, 2004 7:36 am (#468 of 528)
I have been as ardent a detractor to this theory as I am an adherent to the Harry/Pansy 'ship. Nevertheless, I must agree with Denise 100%. What does the "J" in Remus "J" have to do with anything? Unlike Denise, however, I ask because I'm very interested in anything that may, as you say Artful Doger, crush this theory to pieces.
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NYCNomad - Aug 9, 2004 10:55 am (#469 of 528)
Loopy, you really think Pansy and Harry? Sorry for going off the topic here, but is there any evidence for that? (I'm asking so I know how deeply I need to read the appropreate threads) Jeeze, I can't spell today!!
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Ann - Aug 9, 2004 10:57 am (#470 of 528)
I would agree with Denise that whether Lupin's J means John or James doesn't make much difference. (Unless, perhaps, JKR dislikes this theory as much as many of us do, and was trying to put a spoke in at least one bit of it.)
It is also true, as Denise says, that there is probably a lot of stuff in the Wizarding World that we don't know about, and just because a spell hasn't been mentioned doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
The real argument against this theory is outside the Wizarding World, however, and in the world of composition. JKR is a fantastic writer when it comes to laying the groundwork for her plot twists. Were she to plan something as major as a James-Lupin switch, it would be cleverly foreshadowed, probably from the very beginning of the series, so that once we knew it was true, there would be all sorts of bits that would pop out at us and we would say "oh--that's what that meant!" Think of the discovery that James, Sirius, and Peter were animagi: we immediately thought back to PS/SS "Of course! James' wand was good for transfiguration! Scabbers didn't turn yellow when Ron tried to use a spell that mentioned 'this fat rat'!"
But obviously people who follow the Lupin-is-James theory have gone through the books with fine-toothed combs, and they have found no foreshadowings in them that would provoke that reaction--at least not in me. The fact that Lupin is fond of Harry does not make him his father, no matter how much we might want to see them reunited.
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The Artful Dodger - Aug 9, 2004 11:02 am (#471 of 528)
The guys who wrote the Harry Potter guide suspected that the J would stand for James and interpreted this as a big clue for Lupin being James Potter. The quote proves that they were wrong. That's what I mean when I say "crushes to pieces one of the key arguments". Besides, I believe that Jo knew about the theory. I think that's why she says "boring, but true", hinting that the theory the fans made up is interesting, but wrong. That's what makes me believe that her quote destroys the theory.
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Loopy Lupin - Aug 9, 2004 11:14 am (#472 of 528)
Loopy, you really think Pansy and Harry?-- NYCNomad
Nomad, please check out the "Harry's 'ship uniting the Houses" thread. Perhaps that thread is not named so well, but Harry/Pansy is the topic there.
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NYCNomad - Aug 9, 2004 12:27 pm (#473 of 528)
Thanks Loopy.
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timrew - Aug 10, 2004 3:49 pm (#474 of 528)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
You know what really puts me off about this theory? That there are only two books to go.
JKR will have enough explaining to do in the next two books about prophecies, wands, Death Eaters and good guys, why everyone has a time-turner - and what their animaguses are. Plus the reason why Dumbledore is the Giant Squid, and why Filch, Petunia, Arabella Figg, Dudley or Vernon are introduced to magic late in life.
And then also why Sirius comes back from the dead, or was never dead in the first place, or appears as a ghost.....or as a portrait.
And how Mundungus/Krum/or anyone else with red hair (this could include the whole Weasley family)is Crookshanks in animagus form.
And there again (to go back to an earlier theory), how everybody has a time-turner, and is flitting backwards and forwards in time continually, for no reason whatsoever, but to see if they are indeed Crookshanks, or Mark Evans, or Aberforth Dumbledore - who may be the landlord of (I can't remember the name of the pub right now, and I don't care) - so don't tell me!
Plus, why Snape is the father of Mark Evans: has never had a relationship in his life (except with Gina ): is a vampire: is a bat animagus: wears Nike trainers and goes jogging in Central Park (okay, I made that one up).
And to end......is Dumbledore in a relationship with McGonagall? How many kids do they have: how many of them are squids, and how many are kids?
The list goes on.....keep theorising, Forum Folk!!
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Leila 2X4B - Aug 10, 2004 6:36 pm (#475 of 528)
I'd be smegged off. I'd be mad as hell, man. If some git in a white coat designed me to croak just so that he could sell his new android with go-faster stripes.
...and thus Tim SPEWS again. I couldn't have thought it better myself. This theory is just so....what is the word I am looking for?...Hollywood?
Leila
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timrew - Aug 11, 2004 4:17 pm (#476 of 528)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I think SPEW is the word you're looking for, Sleeping Beauty
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Land of the Shire - Aug 13, 2004 11:33 pm (#477 of 528)
Let's assume for a moment that this theory is true.
It was explained that there was a traitor among the Marauders, and that all were aware of it, but the identity was uncertain. Remember that in PoA, in the Shrieking Shack, Sirius tells Lupin that he suspected Lupin was the traitor (Lupin replied that he suspected Sirius, but more on that later). Therefore, Sirius would have been unaware of the switch, as it would be totally ridiculous to suspect James would turn himself in to Voldemort (or turn Remus in, or something).
Now, what was going through James' mind? Since he had originally planned on Sirius as the Secret-Keeper (and changed at Sirius' request), he could not have suspected Sirius as the traitor. Since he agreed to invest his safety in Peter, he could not have suspected Peter as the traitor. That only leaves Lupin.
Why on earth would he switch bodies with someone he suspects as a traitor?
The theory just does not hold water when you examine the particular circumstances of the time leading up to the attack on Godric's hollow.
I hate this theory.
What really bothers me about it is that it seems so well-researched. So many textual examples, so many seemingly thoughtful arguments. Yet there is no logic involved, no hard evidence, only insinuations and eisegesis. Furthermore, there is no point to this theory. If it were true, it would not lead to any truth, nor would it advance the core story in any meaningful way. It would only confuse and frustrate readers, please critics, and be even more unfair to Harry.
This has led to a problem refuting this theory: we try to refute their arguments one-by-one instead of finding a concrete counter-argument. This was my attempt. I hope someone asks this tomorrow at the Q&A session in Edinburgh.
And ten points to me for using "eisegesis" in a sentence.
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Ann - Aug 14, 2004 6:21 am (#478 of 528)
And ten points to me for using "eisegesis" in a sentence. Do you mean exegesis? But that usually implies a fairly solid argument based on textual evidence, which, I agree with you, this theory doesn't have! Your point is very well taken. It's all wishful thinking--and while Harry would probably be happy to get his father back (even as a werewolf), I'm not sure he'd be happy at all to lose Lupin. But I can't believe it is going to happen.
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secret keeper - Aug 15, 2004 6:37 pm (#479 of 528)
This is a very interesting theory Landman. Hopefully this will prove to be more than just a theory in the future.
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Loopy Lupin - Aug 15, 2004 8:11 pm (#480 of 528)
Let's assume for a moment that this theory is true.--Land of the Shire
Why the bloody hell would you want to do that?
Seriously, once again, tim reaffirms his place as the King of Spew. Someone should frame that as a stunning parody of our rampant speculations.
Another way of putting it (not really, but I was struggling for a transition and that one will do) is that Lupin can't be James Potter because its been done before, more than a couple of times actually. Quirrel wasn't who he seemed to be what with LV sticking out of his head. Just when you thought it was safe to go back to DADA class, the professor turns out, it seems, to be evil again . But not really, Moody just isn't himself, literally. He's a Death Eater who's been in disguise for the past 10 months with PJ potion. And then, of course, everyone's favorite rat, it turns out, was a man, baby! Now lest that sounds like criticism of JKR, let me say that I found all of those twists well done, and surprising for different reasons. But, that is quite enough with the people turning out to be someone else. Surely, JKR won't go to this well again.
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Land of the Shire - Aug 15, 2004 8:52 pm (#481 of 528)
"Eisegesis" is precisely the opposite of "exegesis." Whereas "exegesis" is a sound analysis based on textual evidence, "eisegesis" is reading into something what you want to read, based on your prejudices and not necessarily on what's actually there.
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Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Aug 15, 2004 8:55 pm (#482 of 528)
Sometimes known as Kim.
Why the bloody hell would you want to do that? --Loopy Lupin
LOL I couldn't agree more Loopy.
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Ann - Aug 15, 2004 9:34 pm (#483 of 528)
Land of the Shire, that's a perfect description of what this theory does! Thank you--I'd never run into the word. (And I even checked it in the dictionary to make sure I wasn't mistaken!) Grovelling apologies! And, I would say a good 20 points to your house!
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Paulus Maximus - Aug 16, 2004 1:12 am (#484 of 528)
Ah... another Greek scholar... Excellent!
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Fawkes Forever - Aug 16, 2004 6:16 am (#485 of 528)
Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
Tim : ".... or Aberforth Dumbledore - who may be the landlord of (I can't remember the name of the pub right now, and I don't care) - so don't tell me!"
Whadaya know Tim... we where right.... *shock horror & amazement*
JKR at the Edinburgh Book Festival (aug 15th 2004)
Q : Why is the barman of the Hog's Head vaguely familiar to Harry? Is he Dumbledores brother?
JK : Ooh - you are getting good. Why do you think that it is Aberforth? [Audience member : Various clues. He smells of goats and he looks a bit like Dumbledore]. I was quite proud of that clue. That is all that I am going to say. [Laughter]. Well yes, obviously. I like the goat clue - I sniggered to myself about that one.
Hmm, so what else did you say Tim.... everyone has a time turner & appear to be Crookshanks at one time or another..... hmmm, interesting... very interesting ...
Hows about... Lily is really Hedwig... now there's a plausible story line *Fawkes wanders off to loo-la land to have tea with Luna*
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Loopy Lupin - Aug 16, 2004 6:21 am (#486 of 528)
Lily is really Hedwig-- Fawkes Forever
Hey! Don't steal my thread ideas!!!
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Fawkes Forever - Aug 16, 2004 6:22 am (#487 of 528)
Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
Whoops... didn't know you'd already come up with that one... sorry Loopy.... just goes to show ya... great minds think alike... or insane minds anyways...
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Loopy Lupin - Aug 16, 2004 6:35 am (#488 of 528)
No, I was just kidding. However, if someone starts "Lavendar is Really Parvati," I will be enraged.
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Denise P. - Aug 16, 2004 5:01 pm (#489 of 528)
Ravenclaw Pony
Edited Aug 17, 2004 8:53 am
People are free to agree or disagree with a theory as they like. They are not free to turn a thread into a place to ridicule a theory or encourage behavior that is not acceptable on the Forum. Think about it.
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Fawkes Forever - Aug 17, 2004 6:41 am (#490 of 528)
Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
Whoops sorry Denise, I didn't mean to discourage anyones theories... I was just trying to point out that in the crazy world of Harry Potter, just about anything is possible (ie. Aberforth being the barman at the Hogshead). Sorry if I caused any offence to anyone... *hangs head in shame & slopes off to iron hands... naughty Fawkes*
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Loopy Lupin - Aug 17, 2004 7:09 am (#491 of 528)
Whoops here too. I do think that tim's post made perfectly good points, humorously, but perfectly valid points nonetheless.
But, looking back, I crossed the line a few posts back with a post that had no point to make other than being snide. Sorry about that. I'm not likely to be convinced of this theory, but I'll refrain from expressing myself unless I have something constructive to say.
**goes of borrow Fawkes' iron**
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Hermy-own - Aug 17, 2004 11:48 am (#492 of 528)
S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
Wow! I've just read this theory for the first time and have to say its very impressive. Particularly the idea of James and Remus using a switching charm as a form of protection from LV.
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timrew - Aug 18, 2004 2:32 pm (#493 of 528)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Apologies Denise! I don't think this theory holds water; but you're right. I went 'over the top' with my post.
Although I did not mean to hold the theory to ridicule, on reading my post again, it looks that way. Sorry!
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Aud Duck - Aug 29, 2004 9:30 pm (#494 of 528)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
All of Lupin's behaviour can be explained by his personality and his connection to James as a best friend.
Lupin's behaviour on the train:
1. You don't comment on a kid's parentage when he has just recovered from a collapse brought on by dementors.
2. Harry is famous. Lupin realizes that he must be getting sick of fame and refrains from comment on his scar. Common courtesy.
3. He does not stare at the scar because he is, by now, accustomed to it. After he got rid of the dementors, he would have had ample time to survey Harry and note the scar before Harry came round. And that's even assuming that he was asleep for the whole first part of the train ride.
The almost grip of Harry's shoulder
1. We consider Lupin's not gripping Harry's shoulder strange because we are accustomed to a different sort of character. Hagrid and Mrs. Weasely are the sort that get on familiar terms with people very quickly.
2. Lupin is a werewolf. He is accustomed to being shunned and therefore not all that confident. He has come to expect people to not want him around.
3. Though, for reasons explained below, Lupin feels like he knows Harry, he realizes that he does not. He has not seen Harry in years (assuming that he has seen Harry at all; JKR's comment about only Sirius being there for the baptism makes me doubt this). People as reserved as Lupin woudn't reassuringly grip the shoulder of a 13-year-old boy that they hardly knew.
Lupin acts like he already knows Harry.
1. Harry looks like James, even down to the glasses. He probably inherited his father's posture and many of his mannerisms. That would be very spooky.
2. Far more importantly, Lupin shares Harry's tragedy. Both of them lost everyone they had on the night Voldemort killed Harry's parents. Most people rejoice about it because that was the night Voldemort was destroyed. Since Sirius is still assumed a traitor, Harry is the only person alive that was affected by it the way Lupin was. Harry doesn't fully understand that this was the case. Lupin does, and sharing something that powerful would make you feel close even to a complete stranger.
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Catherine - Sep 25, 2004 3:14 pm (#495 of 528)
Canon Seeker
It's a creative theory, I'll give everyone that much.
I've even reread the books with this theory in mind, trying to find any shred of evidence that Lupin is James.
The shrieking shack scene clinches it for me. Snape saw the Marauder's Map, and still referred to Sirius and Lupin by their names. In OoP, the animosity seems to be totally between Sirius and Snape.
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Prefect Marcus - Sep 25, 2004 6:11 pm (#496 of 528)
"Anyone can cook"
I have never understood the big mystery on the train of Remus knowing Harry's name. Harry wakes up with Ron and Hermione calling him by name. So even a total stranger who knows nothing about Harry, his scar, or his parentage would know his name.
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Catherine - Sep 25, 2004 6:14 pm (#497 of 528)
Canon Seeker
Yep, Marcus, there is that.
Yet one more piece of evidence "bites the dust."
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Phoenix song - Sep 25, 2004 10:25 pm (#498 of 528)
Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
Please bear with me as I put some thoughts down, and let me know if you think that they also discount this theory.
The reason that Lupin was not chosen as Secret Keeper originally for the Potters is that they believed that Lupin was the spy for Voldemort. If they believed this theory, WHY would Lily have willingly switched James and Remus?
If Remus had died in James' place, then it means that James is still alive in Lupin's body. Why would he have never come forward to explain the switch? It would have appeared that he would have at least have informed Dumbledore.
It would also seem as if James would have informed Dumbledore that the switch had been made from Sirius as the secret keeper to Pettigrew. If James had been alive, then he would have known that it was Peter who had betrayed them. He wouldn't have allowed Sirius to go to Azkaban for their murders, as he would have known that it was Peter who held the secret. "I persuaded Lily and James to change to Peter at the last moment, persuaded them to use him as Secret Keeper instead of me..." (PoA, Ch. 19, pg. 365) Lupin was also quite surprised to see Peter's name on the Marauder's Map. He was fully convinced that Sirius was the one who was the Secret Keeper for the Potters. If Lupin were James, then he would have known who the real secret keeper was.
A man is alive, (yet in another's body), but his wife and best friend have been murdered and his son is sent to live with estranged relatives. The murderer has vanished, but is believed to still be alive and waiting for the chance to return. What man would not have set out to find and destroy Voldemort even if it did cost him his life? Especially since that life now contains the pain of mourning, being removed from his only child, and the painful monthly transformations into a werewolf?
James was a wealthy man. Lupin is obviously struggling to survive. If James were alive he would certainly still feel entitled to his own money.
Lupin refers to getting bitten in his youth: "None of this could have happened if I hadn't been bitten...and if I hadn't been so foolhardy..." (PoA, Ch. 18, pg. 352) Surely if he were really James trapped in Sirius' body he wouldn't have the first person memory of Lupin being bitten as a child.
Lupin also carries a great deal of guilt for what he considers to be his betrayals of DD's trust. He feels guilty that he prowled through the town as a wolf when DD went through so much effort to allow him to attend school. James as Lupin wouldn't have felt the remorse that Lupin felt for being so reckless. James was an adventurous and reckless young man, and I don't see him feeling guilty about their escapades. Lupin alone could have understood the risk that DD took in allowing him to attend Hogwarts. Lupin alone would feel the remorse for taking advantage of DD's compassion.
I hope that I've made some sense here. Please let me know if I'm mistaken in any of these points. I like this theory and the discussion on it.
Barbie
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Loopy Lupin - Sep 26, 2004 9:53 am (#499 of 528)
Phoenix,
For someone relatively new to the Forum, you have come to grasp every reason why I cannot buy this theory with startling quickness. Good for you. To be sure, there are quite a few who can defend it just as well, but I'm not one of them.
I think, correct me if I'm wrong anyone, that this theory comes from the Ultimate Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter. (The title is something like that.) If you've never heard of that book Phoenix, its worth skimming over at the bookstore. Maybe you'll buy it maybe not.
Marcus!!! Well, as I live and breath. Where have you been!!! Thread unattended, car gone, no note! I've been worried sick!
Cya
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Choices - Sep 26, 2004 10:29 am (#500 of 528)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Lupin is James is an interesting theory, but in GOP it says....."Your father's coming..." she (Lily) said quietly. "Hold on for your father...." Then...."And he came....first his head, then his body....tall and untidy-haired like Harry, the smoky, shadowy form of James Potter blossomed from the end of Voldemort's wand, fell to the ground, and straightened like his wife." Now, these shadows of people that were killed by Voldemort seem to be very aware of what is happening and they know each other, so if James wasn't really James, then I think Lily would have known and not referred to him as "Your father" to Harry. It specifically says it was James Potter (and describes him) who emerged from the wand tip, so I think that pretty much cinches that argument.
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Lupin is really James Potter (Post 501 to 528)
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Phoenix song - Sep 26, 2004 10:40 am (#501 of 528)
Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
Choices: You're right! I missed that one! Surely Lily wouldn't have referred to "smoky" James as Harry's father if it were really Lupin in disguise!
Loopy Lupin: Thank you most sincerely. I'm feeling more and more at home within the forum and appreciate your compliment.
Barbie
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Aud Duck - Sep 26, 2004 12:07 pm (#502 of 528)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
Phoenix--I think that someone earlier in this thread explained that the reason James didn't know about the switch was that he wasn't available when it happened. Other that that, sound points, all.
The real problem with this theory is that it rests on the assumption that Lupin's behaviour is less wierd if he is James than if he is Lupin. I think his behaviour is perfectly normal, given the circumstances. But, for the reasons pointed out by Phoenix, his behaviour is odd if he is James. The only thing that has ever struck me as odd about Lupin is that he already knows Dean's name at the beginning of his first class when he didn't take the register. This lone oddity (and it's a completely unimportant one at that) is not explained by the Lupin is James theory.
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Paulus Maximus - Sep 26, 2004 2:21 pm (#503 of 528)
"If they believed this theory, WHY would Lily have willingly switched James and Remus?"
Sorry to differ on this point, but let me remind you that Switching is a Transfiguration (James' specialty), not a Charm (Lily's).
If such an important spell were to be cast, then for optimum effect it would be done by James, with his own wand.
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timrew - Sep 26, 2004 3:14 pm (#504 of 528)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I don't buy this theory for all the points recently raised. I also can't see how it can be 'shoe-horned' into the final two books. It would seem to me to be an enormous cop-out.
I really hope JKR does not go down this particularly 'Nocturn' Alley.........
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Phoenix song - Sep 26, 2004 9:16 pm (#505 of 528)
Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
Okay, since James and Lily obviously believed (along with DD and Sirius) that Lupin was a spy for Voldemort, WHY would James have switched places with Remus? The result is the same regardless of which parent it was that performed the charm. Also, I don't know that I believe that it would be possible for the two men to have switched their "souls" and "forms" without a third person assistant. (Talk about your possibilities for horrible splinching!)
I would also like to say that although Charms may have been Lily's specialty and transfiguration may have been James' specialty that it does not necessarily follow that they would have been without capable talent within the area of their spouse's perspective strengths. Although Lily may be strongest at charms, it does not mean that she would not be capable of performing admirably in a transfiguration. Despite James' strong suit being transfiguration, it does not mean that he is without abilities in the "charms" department.
I still believe that this is a valid reason to question the Lupin is James theory. I do believe that this is an interesting, entertaining, and challenging theory. But I don't think that it will come to pass for this reason and for the reasons that I have stated in previous posts.
Barbie
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Paulus Maximus - Oct 1, 2004 12:35 pm (#506 of 528)
No, indeed. But even if James can do charms well, Lily can still do them better. Even if Lily can do Transfiguration well, James can do it better.
And especially in times of conflict, it's a good idea to let people do what they do best.
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angel z - Oct 4, 2004 8:31 am (#507 of 528)
I have read through most of this thread, and I agree it is a very entertaining theory. I think the main reason we would all like to believe in this theory is because we would all like a happy ever after for Harry. To think that it was all a mistake and his dad is not dead after all would be something we would all pray for for Harry,(mabey even JKR)!
However the points made in the original post, although valid points well worth discussion, can pretty much all be explained by some other means.
The main reason for me not to buy into this theory though, is because I dont believe this is a credible story line, when we consider the way JKR has constructed her books so far. When I said JKR would probably love this to happen to Harry I believe it but I dont think the HP story is a fairy tale,I'm glad its not. It is more true to real life in its essence than that and I have not once found myself thinking that would never happen. (honestly! even with all the magic) The plot remains carefully considered and everything happens for a reason.
Still its nice to dream.
angel z
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Prefect Marcus - Oct 4, 2004 11:27 am (#508 of 528)
"Anyone can cook"
Rowling mentioned this theory on her webpage. She said the switch never happened.
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Loopy Lupin - Oct 4, 2004 12:12 pm (#509 of 528)
Indeed you are right Marcus. Alas, another theory down the tubes. Some may assume that I would take this opportunity to gloat. That's not my style. I'm actually having a bit "be careful what you wish for" type of feeling. I have wished that she would settle this topic. Now that she has, one of my favorite things to argue about has gone. Drat! Plus, what ever will "Lupin is Lupin" call herself now?
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Diagon Nilly - Oct 4, 2004 12:46 pm (#510 of 528)
Edited by Oct 4, 2004 12:49 pm
I just finished digging a six-foot hole next to Mark Evan's plot, if any pallbearers care to bring this one down there.
Sob! Why is it always the young ones to go! Sob! Snort! Wheeze!
Ah, Loopy. I believe Lupin Is Lupin will start calling herself, "I Was Right All Along."
or maybe "Lupin is Lupin"
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Dr Filibuster - Oct 4, 2004 12:48 pm (#511 of 528)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
She could call herself I told you Lupin is Lupin
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Catherine - Oct 4, 2004 1:08 pm (#512 of 528)
Canon Seeker
Kim could be "Lupin always was, is, and will continue to be Lupin."
It would be rude and ungracious for me to offer a "I told you so," to Ms. Waters and all those who bought into this theory, so I won't say it.
But I might be thinking it!
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Prefect Marcus - Oct 4, 2004 1:36 pm (#513 of 528)
"Anyone can cook"
Yes, Catherine. People who crow usually end up eating a lot of crow.
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Jennifer Anderson - Oct 4, 2004 1:54 pm (#514 of 528)
I was just on Rowing's web site and she updated the FAQ and she said that James would never save himself and leave his wife and son to die.
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Loopy Lupin - Oct 4, 2004 2:12 pm (#515 of 528)
She sure did, Jennifer. She sure did.
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legolas - Oct 4, 2004 2:30 pm (#516 of 528)
For a theory that has been dispelled its getting a lot of posts.
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I Am Used Vlad - Oct 4, 2004 2:56 pm (#517 of 528)
I Am Almighty!
The same thing happened on the Mark Evans thread, legolas, after JKR told us he was nobody.
And to keep this on topic:
This is my first and last post on this thread, and all I have to say is "Thank Goodness."
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Catherine - Oct 4, 2004 3:30 pm (#518 of 528)
Canon Seeker
Marcus,
I won't crow because I do not like the taste of crow, meself, but I will echo Vlad's sentiment's and say, "Thank you, JKR, for dispelling this theory."
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Prefect Marcus - Oct 4, 2004 3:39 pm (#519 of 528)
"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 4, 2004 3:44 pm
Before this thread disappears into the great muncher, I would like to ask a question. Does anybody know if this theory was proported anywhere else, or is this board its main home.
I am just trying to get a handle on how seriously Rowling reads this board.
EDIT: Note to Catherine. I dislike the taste of crow, as well. That is why you shall never hear a gloat from me when a certain long-looked-for event occurs.
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Aud Duck - Oct 4, 2004 4:42 pm (#520 of 528)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
I think someone said it was from The Ultimate Unofficial Guide to Harry Potter, but I'm not entirely sure.
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Hermy-own - Oct 4, 2004 4:52 pm (#521 of 528)
S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
I've always had the impression that it was from elsewhere, Marcus.
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hopping hessian - Oct 4, 2004 5:27 pm (#522 of 528)
"Extrodinary claims require extrordinary proof" -Bill Nye
Yes, aud duck, I'm pretty sure that Ms. Waters first suggested the theory and I was very happy to see it was untrue (sorry to be defensive, but Lupin is my favorite character from the series). Besides, I don't think it would have ended well for Harry. Could you imagine the anger and resentment that he would have felt? Not only would his father have been alive and not told him, but he would have let Harry live with the Dursley's most of his life, he would have spent a year with Harry without saying a word, worst of all, he would have allowed Lily to die (and Harry also if the AK hadn't backfired) to save himself. Add to this the fact that Harry's good opinion of his father has been shaken by what he saw in Snape's memory, there would have been definite issues.
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Choices - Oct 4, 2004 5:36 pm (#523 of 528)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I just finished reading the "Ultimate Guide to the Mysteries of HP" and this theory (James is Lupin) is indeed in there.
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Catherine - Oct 4, 2004 6:13 pm (#524 of 528)
Canon Seeker
EDIT: Note to Catherine. I dislike the taste of crow, as well. That is why you shall never hear a gloat from me when a certain long-looked-for event occurs. --Prefect "Pansy-Proponent" Marcus
Yes, dear. IF it occurs, I am sure that you will prove to be the perfect gentleman. I daresay that IF it occurs, I might prove ladylike as well.
Cheers, Marcus! **lifts tankard of lemonade**
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The Artful Dodger - Oct 4, 2004 6:16 pm (#525 of 528)
Yes it's from that Guide originally , and if you go to the top of the thread you will see that the theory made it from there to the forum. I personally never believed James was in Lupin, because JKR doesn't play around with death, and rightly so.
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timrew - Oct 4, 2004 6:23 pm (#526 of 528)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
This theory is dead,
Close down the thread.
Don't be an agitator....
Be a moderator!
Sorry! Couldn't resist a bit of (C)rap there.......
This theory is dead....long live the next theory!
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Weeny Owl - Oct 4, 2004 8:37 pm (#527 of 528)
I never believed this theory, but at the same time, it's another one that was fun to debate.
I do hope that Marcus's Pansy theory isn't answered either way any time soon. It's another fun one; quite stimulating to debate with someone as astute as Marcus.
At least we still have plenty of Snape stuff to discuss. I'm sure Gina is pleased.
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Kip Carter - Oct 4, 2004 9:31 pm (#528 of 528)
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
I have closed this thread down being that JKR has answered the question and moved it to the Archived Section of the Forum.
In OoP-28, we go into the Penseive again, but this time, into one of Snape's memories. We get to see James, Sirius, Lupin and Wormtail during thier fifth year at Hogwarts. Well, if Lupin actually WAS Harry's dad, James wouldn't be there. But all 4 of them are. (I really hope this made sense; it didn't to my sister...)
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Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
Choices: You're right! I missed that one! Surely Lily wouldn't have referred to "smoky" James as Harry's father if it were really Lupin in disguise!
Loopy Lupin: Thank you most sincerely. I'm feeling more and more at home within the forum and appreciate your compliment.
Barbie
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Aud Duck - Sep 26, 2004 12:07 pm (#502 of 528)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
Phoenix--I think that someone earlier in this thread explained that the reason James didn't know about the switch was that he wasn't available when it happened. Other that that, sound points, all.
The real problem with this theory is that it rests on the assumption that Lupin's behaviour is less wierd if he is James than if he is Lupin. I think his behaviour is perfectly normal, given the circumstances. But, for the reasons pointed out by Phoenix, his behaviour is odd if he is James. The only thing that has ever struck me as odd about Lupin is that he already knows Dean's name at the beginning of his first class when he didn't take the register. This lone oddity (and it's a completely unimportant one at that) is not explained by the Lupin is James theory.
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Paulus Maximus - Sep 26, 2004 2:21 pm (#503 of 528)
"If they believed this theory, WHY would Lily have willingly switched James and Remus?"
Sorry to differ on this point, but let me remind you that Switching is a Transfiguration (James' specialty), not a Charm (Lily's).
If such an important spell were to be cast, then for optimum effect it would be done by James, with his own wand.
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timrew - Sep 26, 2004 3:14 pm (#504 of 528)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I don't buy this theory for all the points recently raised. I also can't see how it can be 'shoe-horned' into the final two books. It would seem to me to be an enormous cop-out.
I really hope JKR does not go down this particularly 'Nocturn' Alley.........
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Phoenix song - Sep 26, 2004 9:16 pm (#505 of 528)
Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
Okay, since James and Lily obviously believed (along with DD and Sirius) that Lupin was a spy for Voldemort, WHY would James have switched places with Remus? The result is the same regardless of which parent it was that performed the charm. Also, I don't know that I believe that it would be possible for the two men to have switched their "souls" and "forms" without a third person assistant. (Talk about your possibilities for horrible splinching!)
I would also like to say that although Charms may have been Lily's specialty and transfiguration may have been James' specialty that it does not necessarily follow that they would have been without capable talent within the area of their spouse's perspective strengths. Although Lily may be strongest at charms, it does not mean that she would not be capable of performing admirably in a transfiguration. Despite James' strong suit being transfiguration, it does not mean that he is without abilities in the "charms" department.
I still believe that this is a valid reason to question the Lupin is James theory. I do believe that this is an interesting, entertaining, and challenging theory. But I don't think that it will come to pass for this reason and for the reasons that I have stated in previous posts.
Barbie
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Paulus Maximus - Oct 1, 2004 12:35 pm (#506 of 528)
No, indeed. But even if James can do charms well, Lily can still do them better. Even if Lily can do Transfiguration well, James can do it better.
And especially in times of conflict, it's a good idea to let people do what they do best.
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angel z - Oct 4, 2004 8:31 am (#507 of 528)
I have read through most of this thread, and I agree it is a very entertaining theory. I think the main reason we would all like to believe in this theory is because we would all like a happy ever after for Harry. To think that it was all a mistake and his dad is not dead after all would be something we would all pray for for Harry,(mabey even JKR)!
However the points made in the original post, although valid points well worth discussion, can pretty much all be explained by some other means.
The main reason for me not to buy into this theory though, is because I dont believe this is a credible story line, when we consider the way JKR has constructed her books so far. When I said JKR would probably love this to happen to Harry I believe it but I dont think the HP story is a fairy tale,I'm glad its not. It is more true to real life in its essence than that and I have not once found myself thinking that would never happen. (honestly! even with all the magic) The plot remains carefully considered and everything happens for a reason.
Still its nice to dream.
angel z
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Prefect Marcus - Oct 4, 2004 11:27 am (#508 of 528)
"Anyone can cook"
Rowling mentioned this theory on her webpage. She said the switch never happened.
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Loopy Lupin - Oct 4, 2004 12:12 pm (#509 of 528)
Indeed you are right Marcus. Alas, another theory down the tubes. Some may assume that I would take this opportunity to gloat. That's not my style. I'm actually having a bit "be careful what you wish for" type of feeling. I have wished that she would settle this topic. Now that she has, one of my favorite things to argue about has gone. Drat! Plus, what ever will "Lupin is Lupin" call herself now?
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Diagon Nilly - Oct 4, 2004 12:46 pm (#510 of 528)
Edited by Oct 4, 2004 12:49 pm
I just finished digging a six-foot hole next to Mark Evan's plot, if any pallbearers care to bring this one down there.
Sob! Why is it always the young ones to go! Sob! Snort! Wheeze!
Ah, Loopy. I believe Lupin Is Lupin will start calling herself, "I Was Right All Along."
or maybe "Lupin is Lupin"
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Dr Filibuster - Oct 4, 2004 12:48 pm (#511 of 528)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
She could call herself I told you Lupin is Lupin
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Catherine - Oct 4, 2004 1:08 pm (#512 of 528)
Canon Seeker
Kim could be "Lupin always was, is, and will continue to be Lupin."
It would be rude and ungracious for me to offer a "I told you so," to Ms. Waters and all those who bought into this theory, so I won't say it.
But I might be thinking it!
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Prefect Marcus - Oct 4, 2004 1:36 pm (#513 of 528)
"Anyone can cook"
Yes, Catherine. People who crow usually end up eating a lot of crow.
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Jennifer Anderson - Oct 4, 2004 1:54 pm (#514 of 528)
I was just on Rowing's web site and she updated the FAQ and she said that James would never save himself and leave his wife and son to die.
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Loopy Lupin - Oct 4, 2004 2:12 pm (#515 of 528)
She sure did, Jennifer. She sure did.
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legolas - Oct 4, 2004 2:30 pm (#516 of 528)
For a theory that has been dispelled its getting a lot of posts
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I Am Used Vlad - Oct 4, 2004 2:56 pm (#517 of 528)
I Am Almighty!
The same thing happened on the Mark Evans thread, legolas, after JKR told us he was nobody.
And to keep this on topic:
This is my first and last post on this thread, and all I have to say is "Thank Goodness."
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Catherine - Oct 4, 2004 3:30 pm (#518 of 528)
Canon Seeker
Marcus,
I won't crow because I do not like the taste of crow, meself, but I will echo Vlad's sentiment's and say, "Thank you, JKR, for dispelling this theory."
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Prefect Marcus - Oct 4, 2004 3:39 pm (#519 of 528)
"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Oct 4, 2004 3:44 pm
Before this thread disappears into the great muncher, I would like to ask a question. Does anybody know if this theory was proported anywhere else, or is this board its main home.
I am just trying to get a handle on how seriously Rowling reads this board.
EDIT: Note to Catherine. I dislike the taste of crow, as well. That is why you shall never hear a gloat from me when a certain long-looked-for event occurs.
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Aud Duck - Oct 4, 2004 4:42 pm (#520 of 528)
"I know I have to beat time when I learn Music." "Ahh, that accounts for it. He won't stand beating."--Alice in Wonderland
I think someone said it was from The Ultimate Unofficial Guide to Harry Potter, but I'm not entirely sure.
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Hermy-own - Oct 4, 2004 4:52 pm (#521 of 528)
S.P.R.W. Vice President = Ponine
I've always had the impression that it was from elsewhere, Marcus.
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hopping hessian - Oct 4, 2004 5:27 pm (#522 of 528)
"Extrodinary claims require extrordinary proof" -Bill Nye
Yes, aud duck, I'm pretty sure that Ms. Waters first suggested the theory and I was very happy to see it was untrue (sorry to be defensive, but Lupin is my favorite character from the series). Besides, I don't think it would have ended well for Harry. Could you imagine the anger and resentment that he would have felt? Not only would his father have been alive and not told him, but he would have let Harry live with the Dursley's most of his life, he would have spent a year with Harry without saying a word, worst of all, he would have allowed Lily to die (and Harry also if the AK hadn't backfired) to save himself. Add to this the fact that Harry's good opinion of his father has been shaken by what he saw in Snape's memory, there would have been definite issues.
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Choices - Oct 4, 2004 5:36 pm (#523 of 528)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I just finished reading the "Ultimate Guide to the Mysteries of HP" and this theory (James is Lupin) is indeed in there.
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Catherine - Oct 4, 2004 6:13 pm (#524 of 528)
Canon Seeker
EDIT: Note to Catherine. I dislike the taste of crow, as well. That is why you shall never hear a gloat from me when a certain long-looked-for event occurs. --Prefect "Pansy-Proponent" Marcus
Yes, dear. IF it occurs, I am sure that you will prove to be the perfect gentleman. I daresay that IF it occurs, I might prove ladylike as well.
Cheers, Marcus! **lifts tankard of lemonade**
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The Artful Dodger - Oct 4, 2004 6:16 pm (#525 of 528)
Yes it's from that Guide originally , and if you go to the top of the thread you will see that the theory made it from there to the forum. I personally never believed James was in Lupin, because JKR doesn't play around with death, and rightly so.
- - - - - - - - - -
timrew - Oct 4, 2004 6:23 pm (#526 of 528)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
This theory is dead,
Close down the thread.
Don't be an agitator....
Be a moderator!
Sorry! Couldn't resist a bit of (C)rap there.......
This theory is dead....long live the next theory!
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Weeny Owl - Oct 4, 2004 8:37 pm (#527 of 528)
I never believed this theory, but at the same time, it's another one that was fun to debate.
I do hope that Marcus's Pansy theory isn't answered either way any time soon. It's another fun one; quite stimulating to debate with someone as astute as Marcus.
At least we still have plenty of Snape stuff to discuss. I'm sure Gina is pleased.
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Kip Carter - Oct 4, 2004 9:31 pm (#528 of 528)
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
I have closed this thread down being that JKR has answered the question and moved it to the Archived Section of the Forum.
In OoP-28, we go into the Penseive again, but this time, into one of Snape's memories. We get to see James, Sirius, Lupin and Wormtail during thier fifth year at Hogwarts. Well, if Lupin actually WAS Harry's dad, James wouldn't be there. But all 4 of them are. (I really hope this made sense; it didn't to my sister...)
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