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T. M. Riddle, a half-forgotten friend
Elanor Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:51 am
T. M. Riddle, a half-forgotten friend
Madame Librarian - Feb 13, 2004 9:29 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Jan 12, 2006 12:24 pm
In my re-read of all the chapter 13's to mine for possible clues for villian in chapter 13 thread, I came across this passage in CoS, ch. 13, pg. 233-234 (US, paperback). Harry is still pondering the blank diary just before he figures out how to make it "talk":
"...And while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and had half-forgotten...."
Way back on an earlier thread this fall, I'd noticed that sentence and my antenna went up--"clue, clue, clue." I suggested a whacko theory about kindly Mr. Riddle living across the yard from that lovely Potter couple with the new baby, and dropping in to play with little Harry and sharing a spot of tea with his charming mum. My idea was that Riddle was in a pre-Voldemort state, though working on his heinous scheme, and in the meantime was living a seemingly quiet life, working at a mundane job perhaps even at the MoM. At any rate, it put Riddle in the same place as baby Harry.
I still think this is a stretch, but I also still think that Harry's memory of having known Riddle is important enough to merit a little discussion to get your ideas.
OK, ready, set, go!
Ciao. Barb
This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. At that time, this thread was still set in the "Archived Thread to be Worked" folder of the WC forum. Elanor
Madame Librarian - Feb 13, 2004 9:29 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Jan 12, 2006 12:24 pm
In my re-read of all the chapter 13's to mine for possible clues for villian in chapter 13 thread, I came across this passage in CoS, ch. 13, pg. 233-234 (US, paperback). Harry is still pondering the blank diary just before he figures out how to make it "talk":
"...And while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and had half-forgotten...."
Way back on an earlier thread this fall, I'd noticed that sentence and my antenna went up--"clue, clue, clue." I suggested a whacko theory about kindly Mr. Riddle living across the yard from that lovely Potter couple with the new baby, and dropping in to play with little Harry and sharing a spot of tea with his charming mum. My idea was that Riddle was in a pre-Voldemort state, though working on his heinous scheme, and in the meantime was living a seemingly quiet life, working at a mundane job perhaps even at the MoM. At any rate, it put Riddle in the same place as baby Harry.
I still think this is a stretch, but I also still think that Harry's memory of having known Riddle is important enough to merit a little discussion to get your ideas.
OK, ready, set, go!
Ciao. Barb
Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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T. M. Riddle, a half-forgotten friend (Post 1 to 50)
Elanor Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:53 am
Sly Girl - Feb 13, 2004 9:37 pm (#1 of 183)
Yeah, we've talked about this one before, actually. That part has always bugged me too. I'm not sure what the consensus was about it.. I think most people thought it meant nothing, but hey, I'll buck the system and say that it does! ah ha!
I'm not sure about your theory though. Wouldn't Dumbledore notice a Riddle character? Weren't Lily and James in hiding by the time Harry was born? They were in the order, wouldn't they know the name Riddle?
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Madame Librarian - Feb 13, 2004 9:47 pm (#2 of 183)
Sly, I agree with all the holes you've punched, but so far that's all I can come up with. Maybe he wasn't a neighbor or anything close like that, but somehow was able to insinuate himself into the area near the Potters, just for a bit (deliveryman, transformed into a harmless old geezer admiring a cute baby).
Do we know exactly when the Potters were put into hiding? Were they also in hiding in a Muggle sense? Is it possible that they were able to see Lily's folks and Petunia, the thinking being that the Muggle world was reasonably protected from the DEs? Or maybe they could have Muggle visitors, and Riddle is somehow related to the Evans's (uwww, this idea makes me nervous--like it leads to some unpleasant conclusions).
Ciao. Barb
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Mad Madame Mim - Feb 13, 2004 9:58 pm (#3 of 183)
"Don't tell me you've never heard of the marvellous Madame Mim?"
Maybe Harry has always been unconsciously aware of Tom/Voldemort's presence, even when Voldemort was weak. The scar doesn't necessarily have to hurt for Tom to be creeping into Harry's subconscious.
Just a thought.
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I Am Used Vlad - Feb 13, 2004 10:09 pm (#4 of 183)
I Am Almighty!
Harry was only 15 months old when his parents were killed. Is it possible to remember a name from that early in life? I know nothing of early childhood development, but that seems young to recall a name more than ten years later.
It could be different for wizards, though.
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S.E. Jones - Feb 13, 2004 10:46 pm (#5 of 183)
Let it snow!
I've heard it suggested once that the reason the name sounded familiar but half-forgotten was because of the (subconscious) connection Harry shares to Voldemort. Basically, it is a piece of Voldemort in Harry that would be fondly remembering his childhood self, T. M. Riddle....
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Sly Girl - Feb 13, 2004 11:17 pm (#6 of 183)
Ah... good explanation S.E. That does sound feasible. Maybe there's something else going on we'll understand by book 7? heh
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Sherbie Lemon - Feb 14, 2004 7:58 am (#7 of 183)
I found an interesting quote I had forgotten about that I think has a place here: "There are strange likenesses between us, after all. Both half-bloods, orphans, raised by muggles. Probably the only two Parselmouths to come out of Hogwarts since the great Slytherin himself. We even look something alike..." (CoS p.317 US)
I like your explanation S.E. I think perhaps, parts of Voldemort got transferred through that attack in Godric's Hollow into Harry. But all those similarities! And there are no coincidences, right?
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septentrion - Feb 14, 2004 1:53 pm (#8 of 183)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
They're not coincidences because LV choosed to kill the more like him baby 15 years ago and we all know he failed. And when he marked Harry and made him his equal he gave him what was lacking Harry to be reaaly similar to him.
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Madame Librarian - Feb 14, 2004 4:07 pm (#9 of 183)
So, it sounds like most of you who posted here are seeing the memory Harry as an "echo" of the time when the attack at Godric's Hollow took place. What Harry thinks he remembers as someone named T. M. Riddle is in fact Voldemort with the transformed Riddle still deep inside.
I agree that seems to make sense because it is a logical way to think of it, but, you know, I have a feeling JKR is being even trickier here. So, I'll ponder on it some more.
Ciao. Barb
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Kip Carter - Feb 14, 2004 9:57 pm (#10 of 183)
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
We know in Book 5 that Harry is able to strongly visualize what is happening with what Voldemort is thinking and doing. Can we completely disregard the chance that Harry's faint memory could be what pre-Voldemort as a very young toddler Tom Riddle could have remember about his grandfather (the elder Riddle who was killed along with his wife and his son, Tom's hated father) visiting him at the orphanage? Think about that for a few minutes!
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popkin - Feb 15, 2004 2:01 am (#11 of 183)
mother
I like to think that somehow, as a baby, Harry knew Tom Riddle. I don't know how it could be possible, since, apparently, Tom had already become the hideous Lord Voldemort by the time Harry was born. But I think that the clue Barb has quoted is very clear - Harry remembers a long forgotten friend named Tom Riddle.
Maybe, as a very young child, Harry had some kind of vivid dreams about Tom, and vaguely remembers the dreams. Since there is a connection between them, maybe Harry has many, many dreams about Tom that he doesn't quite remember when he's awake. Maybe we'll see some dreams like that, dreams of Tom's childhood, in the next books.
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Sly Girl - Feb 15, 2004 7:59 am (#12 of 183)
That's true- Harry does talk about his dreams a bit in Book one- we know he dreamt of the flying motorbike, we know he dreamt of a green flashing light.. so maybe there is something to that.
As for Kip's idea. Hmm, I don't know why, but the thought of Harry remembering young Riddle's childhood gave me the creeps!
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mollis - Feb 15, 2004 9:08 am (#13 of 183)
Edited by Feb 15, 2004 8:09 am
This is something that has been bothering me for awhile too, Madame Librarian, I'm glad you started this thread!
My thoughts on this are connected to the scene in SS movie of Voldy's attack on Harry. When Voldy enters the room to attack baby Harry and Harry sees Voldy - he smiles at him! Lily has just been murdered before his eyes, but baby Harry looks at Voldy with more of a smile. Harry is not scared of this stranger in his room - possibly because Voldy is no stranger to Harry, Harry just knows him as Tom Riddle.
Since we are told JKR wrote this scene herself, and I think we are considering it cannon, it lends a great deal to the idea that Tom Riddle/Voldemort was friendly to Harry as a baby. We have 2 pieces of evidence that indicate Harry knew Tom's name and face as a child. Why or how Tom Riddle got to be friendly with the Potters is beyond me though. Unless he really was doing the dual-personalities thing - Evil Dark Lord Voldemort by night, innocent (maybe even muggle) neighbor Tom Riddle by day. Could have been his disguise during the early days of his reign of terror. Assuming this were true, and that the population at large didn't know Voldemort was once Tom Riddle, it could help further explain why Dumbledore calls him Tom in OOTP.
And I agree with Sly Girl, Kip, your idea gives me the creeps! Mainly because if Harry has memories from Voldy/Tom's childhood, he may possess traces of memories from Tom's whole life. Talk about a can of worms!
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Madame Librarian - Feb 15, 2004 9:17 am (#14 of 183)
Let me throw this scenario on the table (I did something similar a while back, but it probably fell through the Veil already)--
OK, we know that Voldie was at the peak of his powers from 1970 to 1981 and that Harry was born in 1980. We also know that Riddle had mastered so many magical transformations in his quest for immortality that few recognized him as the brilliant, young fellow who graduated from Hogwarts, Tom Riddle. In other words, he no longer looked at all like the handsome Tom. But--does that automatically mean that he could not transform back to his normal state for the purposes of furthering his evil goals? Could he not go back to looking like Tom (who would by 1970 be a handsome middle-aged Wizard in his low 40s)? It would be a very useful spell.
Voldie hears of the Prophecy in 1979, and he's fully aware of the need to keep tabs on potential candidates who fit the profile of "thrice defied him" and having a kid at the end of July. As of the spring of 1980 let's say, there are two likely candidates (though Neville and Harry are not born yet, it is apparent that Alice and Lily are both due around the same time, and it is known that both couples are active Order members).
Now, there are two critical questions that could make my theory work: 1)--When exactly did Lily and James go into hiding? When DD heard the Prophecy (1979)? When Lily became pregnant and therefore a candidate to produce the child who could vanquish Voldie? Is there any canon answer that I've missed? And that leads to the 2nd question...
2)--When exactly was Wormtail made Secret-Keeper? According to the Lex, he was already passing information to Voldie. If he's made S-K shortly before the attack on Halloween, 1981, is it not possible that the Potter's hideout was breachable before that? If he's made S-K well before that, he could have passed the information to Voldie at any time earlier.
If he was able to find the Potters, and if he was in his Tom Riddle form, his charm and talent for persuasion (through spells, perhaps) could have put him in direct contact with infant/toddler Harry in order to assess if this is the kid he needs to get at. He does not need to act rashly here because he knows he'll have Wormtail to pass on information should DD upgrade the protections on the Potters.
Could it not be that what Harry remembers in that scene with the diary is not a false memory or one produced by the magic transference of some of Voldie's powers of the failed AK curse, but an actual memory of that nice guy who played with him a bit when he was a little 'un?
Ciao. Barb
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FCBarca - Feb 15, 2004 9:22 am (#15 of 183)
I believe it to be because of the connection. I believe it also to be because of the 'transfer' that occurred with the 'curse that failed', as this also explained why Harry has a similar likeness to Tom Riddle.
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mollis - Feb 15, 2004 9:47 am (#16 of 183)
Edited by Feb 15, 2004 8:48 am
Madame Librarian wrote: "If he was able to find the Potters, and if he was in his Tom Riddle form, his charm and talent for persuasion (through spells, perhaps) could have put him in direct contact with infant/toddler Harry in order to assess if this is the kid he needs to get at. He does not need to act rashly here because he knows he'll have Wormtail to pass on information should DD upgrade the protections on the Potters."
Brilliant Barb! I completely agree with what you wrote. I think it makes sense that Voldy would study the 2 kids in question to learn which is the likely candidate for fulfilling the prophecy. Perhaps he studied Harry and the Lestranges studied Neville (that would explain why maybe they were the ones to crucio them later)? Voldy chose Harry due to similar background or some other reason.
I highly doubt that the Potters were protected via SK for very long (doesn't Sirius say something to Peter about running straight to Voldy with the 'good news'). It seems likely that they did that charm just before Halloween, perhaps due to a warning from a spy (Snape?)that Voldy was getting ready to strike. They had probably been keeping a low profile since the prophecy - unless they didn't know about it. We don't really know if DD told the Potters about the prophecy. He may have just told them that Voldy was after Harry without much explanation.
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I Am Used Vlad - Feb 15, 2004 11:13 am (#17 of 183)
I Am Almighty!
Wasn't the prophecy made in 1980, shortly before Harry's birth?
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Little Ginny - Feb 15, 2004 12:06 pm (#18 of 183)
No, the prophecy was made in October, but Harry was born in July the following year, that means the prophecy was made in October 1979.
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Anna L. Black - Feb 15, 2004 2:08 pm (#19 of 183)
So... *counting* The prophecy was given exactly 9 months before the birth date... Very interesting. Perhaps what triggered Trelawney's trance was... ehm, the process of making the baby that the prophecy talks about? But I'm going off-topic here...
What I meant to say was: From what DD says, it seems as though Voldemort acted rashly when he went to attack the Potters - so he didn't exactly have time to "settle down" as Tom and try to make close contact with Harry. However, what I'm saying is not based on solid facts from the books, so it might be wrong.
No, wait... I was about to write a whole theory when I figured that I missed a year... OK, forget everything I've said, it makes perfect sense - Voldemort did have the time to do it all. But that makes me wonder what really made him choose Harry and not Neville. And also - why did he have to wait that long?? He could have killed Harry before that, especially if he was pretending to be a lovely neighbour.
Now I'm confused...
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popkin - Feb 15, 2004 4:42 pm (#20 of 183)
mother
mollis, I agree with your post (#13) that in the SS movie, in the scene written by JKR, baby Harry looks as though he recognizes and likes the person pointing a wand at him. It's interesting that the person with the wand has his/her face hidden by a hood. JKR had a clear idea of what Lord Voldemort looked like at this time. Why would she write the scene with his face hidden?
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S.E. Jones - Feb 15, 2004 5:31 pm (#21 of 183)
Let it snow!
Little Ginny: No, the prophecy was made in October, but Harry was born in July the following year, that means the prophecy was made in October 1979.
Where does it say the prophecy was made in October? All Dumbledore said was that he heard it "on a cold, wet night sixteen years ago, in a room above the bar at the Hog's Head Inn. I had gone there to see an applicant for the post of Divination teacher, though it was against my inclination to allow the the subject of Divination to continue at all...." (OotP, ch37, pg840, US). The only other thing we know is that Trewlany has been working there "nearly sixteen years." (OotP, ch 15, pg314, US). He could have been interviewing her at the start of term (fall 1979), prior to the second semester starting (winter 1979/1980) or during the end of the last semester for the following school year (spring 1980), or any day between, for that matter....
EDIT: It seems to me that Voldemort hadn't really settled on a baby (Harry or Neville) until shortly before the incident at Godric's Hollow, thus their need to go into hiding. Plus, he would need time to figure out who was in the Order, who had a child, who had defied him three times, what that meant exactly, whose kid was born at the end of July, and then decide between them which kid was referenced in the Prophecy. Harry was only a year and three months old when the attempted killing happened and so I don't think he would have had time to do all that and set up house next to the Potters....
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FCBarca - Feb 16, 2004 4:32 am (#22 of 183)
'But that makes me wonder what really made him choose Harry and not Neville'
It was because Harry was more like Voldemort, because Harry is a half-blood like Voldemort, and Neville is a pure-blood. Voldemort saw himself in Harry before he'd seen him.
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Anna L. Black - Feb 16, 2004 10:00 am (#23 of 183)
I know, it's just.... I'm not comfortable with this explanation. I have a gut feeling that DD is somehow wrong here.... But it's probably just in my head. Go figure.
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Madame Librarian - Feb 16, 2004 10:47 am (#24 of 183)
Anna, do you mean that DD is wrong here when he tells Harry in OoP that it simply could not be Neville? Here's the quote, chapter 37, pg. 842 (US):
"The official record was relabeled after Voldemort's attack on you as a child," said Dumbledore. "It seemed plain the to the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy that Voldemort could only have tried to kill you cause he knew you to be the one to whom Sibyll was referring."
"Then--it might not be me?" said Harry.
"I am afraid," said Dumbledore slowly, looking as though every word cost him great effort, "that there is no doubt that is is you."
"But you said--Neville was born at the end of July too--and his mum and dad--"
"You are forgetting the next part of the prophecy, the final identifying feature of the boy who could vanquish Voldemort...Voldemort himself would 'mark him as his equal.' And so he did, Harry. He chose you, not Neville. He gave you the scar that has proved both blessing and curse."
"But he might have chosen wrong!" said Harry. "He might have marked the wrong person!"
"He chose the boy he thought most likely to be a danger to him," said Dumbledore. "And notice this, Harry. He chose, not the pureblood (which according to his creed, is the only wizard worth being or knowing), but the half-blood, like himself. He saw himself in you before he had ever seem you, and in marking you with that scar, he did not kill you, as he intended, but gave you powers, and a future, which fitted you to escape him not once, but four times so far--something that neither your parents, nor Neville's parent, ever achieved."
[OK, sorry for the long quote, but I think it's sometimes a good idea to have in repeated on the thread to help people form ideas.]
Getting back to Anna's comment--there is something in DD's response to Harry that despite his absolute confidence in believing Harry to be "the one," worries me. DD has made mistakes before and is the first to admit he is fallible, so I am uncomfortable with his assurance here. Also, the way he says it--"...slowy, looking as though every word cost him great effort..."--is he covering something up here, and he must convince Harry that he's chosen for a reason beyond what Voldemort started?
Anyway, my post had put us adrift from the Riddle/friend subject and if we get going on this particular bit, I suggest we move this post and Anna's to the Dumbledore thread.
Ciao. Barb
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popkin - Feb 16, 2004 11:38 am (#25 of 183)
mother
Edited by Feb 16, 2004 10:54 am
It's interesting that it is Tom Riddle's name, in written form, that Harry recognizes. Maybe Lily or James, or someone else that Harry knew, a grandparent perhaps, was a childhood friend of Tom Riddle's and reminisced about him with Harry.
I really think there must be a strong connection between Lily and Tom/LV, otherwise he would not have hesitated to kill her when she stood between him and Harry in Godric's Hollow. Maybe the "long forgotten friend" is a clue to their relationship.
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zelmia - Feb 16, 2004 1:23 pm (#26 of 183)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I think we may be taking that passage too literally, if I may be so blunt. I think Rowling was simply giving the reader an understanding of why Harry was so compelled by the Diary, even though it didn't appear to have any significance. He only felt as if the name should mean something to him ...like the name of some childhood friend half-forgotten.
Most people can relate to that feeling of "having something on the tip of your tongue" or of feeling that something has some meaning that you just can't quite put your finger on. Here Rowling has simply given an analogy that is universally comprehensible: that of the "half-forgotten childhood friend." I don't think there is any real significance to the passage other than that.
But obviously I could be wrong.
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Madame Librarian - Feb 16, 2004 2:58 pm (#27 of 183)
Zelmia, I don't believe that JKR is just using a simple analogy to explain Harry's compulsion to read the diary. JKR chooses her phrases very carefully and this reference to a classic Proustian sensation (as in "Remembrance of Things Past" where the main character is transported back to a memory in his childhood by the aroma of baking cookies) that Harry feels upon seeing the name T. M. Riddle is supposed to be a hint that there is really something to remember. That feeling Harry has of having not only known this Riddle, but of having him as a friend is what compels him to delve into the diary. It is stronger than mere curiousity posed by the blank diary pages.
Speaking from personal experience, a half-remembered anything (name, title, song, event, accident) but especially a friend or acquaitence creates a powerful feeling of frustration when your brain can't produce the facts. That tip-of-the-tongue phenomenon is different than just wanting to know what's inside something.
Ciao. Barb
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Madame Librarian - Feb 16, 2004 3:12 pm (#28 of 183)
Hi, folks, I've been thinking about Anna's post #23 and my subsequent one. I am transferring them to the Dumbledore thread because, though they are off-topic for this thread, I think they might be an interesting issue to take up there. Wish me luck in getting everything over there. Of course, I'll leave them here so you can figure out what I'm talking about.
Ciao. Barb
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Detail Seeker - Feb 16, 2004 3:47 pm (#29 of 183)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
We should try to get to know, from when there could be a rememberance of that name, if we want to find things that nourish this theory or disprove it.
Where can Harry have heard that name:
I doubt, that he will have any memories from his time with his parents. So, we should not look there with priority.
He might have heard such a name at the Dursley´s - Old Tom Riddle (LV´s father) a friend of Vernon´s father ?
Some mentioning in the photo album, Hagrid presented to him ? Not likely, but possible.
Chocolate frog cards ?
Subconscious remembering having seen the name, when he was shown the plaquette with his father´s name on it in the Trophy Room ? Possible.
That is, what I would think of. I don´t know, if this helps further.
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virgoddess1313 - Feb 16, 2004 4:44 pm (#30 of 183)
I don't think he could remember Tom Riddle from before his parents deaths, or even from before that. I'm no psychologist (definately far from it), but we've been learning about child development in my psychology class. Before the age of three, children don't have the proper neural connections to remember things longterm. Any memories they have from before the age of three tend to be things people have told them since then that they then percieve as a memory.
But, since Harry seems to remember the attack on his parents, that sort of blows that out of the water. I don't think JKR was thinking that scientifically.
I still think, though, that if Harry had heard the name of Tom Riddle before he came into contact with the diary, it was sometime in his childhood.
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Madame Librarian - Feb 16, 2004 6:13 pm (#31 of 183)
I think we have to recognize that for Harry, and for wizards in general, perhaps, certain memories may begin at an earlier age than in Muggles, especially memories fraught with emotion, even happy ones.
This next bit I'm going to bring up is very disturbing to consider (and I apologize if it's been said before somewhere), but there's a part of me that is suspicious of various friends associated with Lily and James. Yes, of course, Pettigrew's true sympathies are well known, but at other times I can see JKR weaving a surprising plot involving practically everyone else who we believe to be on the good side. I even had the awful idea that Lily and James themselves were somehow mixed up with Voldemort in a way that would have him and Harry together during Harry's first year. Aaaack! It's too terrible to ponder.
Ciao. Barb
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virgoddess1313 - Feb 16, 2004 7:32 pm (#32 of 183)
Terrible, but a good thought. I would believe a plot twist like that.. the dark side to the Potters. But with all the doubt Harry felt in OtP concerning his father, I'd hate to see how he would react to that. But it is a good argument in favor of the idea that Harr y somehow knew Voldie/Riddle in his childhood.
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tracie1976 - Feb 16, 2004 7:38 pm (#33 of 183)
"Harry needs her badly." JKR on Hermione...interview from The Times June 30, 2000 artwork for avatar by logansrogue at livejournal.com
Could it be possible that Voldemort visited Harry in dreams and thats why Harry feels like he's a half-forgotten friend?
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popkin - Feb 16, 2004 11:31 pm (#34 of 183)
mother
tracie1976, that makes sense to me. If Harry has been dreaming Voldemort's dreams of long corridors with him, why wouldn't he be sharing other dreams as well? It could be that Voldemort occasionally dreams of happier times, times when he was very human and not yet evil at all. These memory dreams, or even dreams of what could have been if Tom had made different choices, might never have woken Harry, and so he doesn't consciously remember them - he might have only a vague, grasping feeling of trying to remember them.
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Leviosa - Feb 17, 2004 2:26 am (#35 of 183)
But Harry has those dreams only since Voldemort has been growing stonger (GoF and OotP). Since GoF the connection between Voldemort and Harry is strong enough to transfer dreams. But in CoS Voldemort was very weak and there were no signs of their connection at all.
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FCBarca - Feb 17, 2004 3:08 am (#36 of 183)
I think it was because of the connection, it certainly is the most logical answer. About Tom riddle knowing James and Lily; that's impossible, as they're too young. As I'm a firm believer that Tom Riddle is Voldemort, it would make sense if James and Lily knew Voldemort, although i can't see why they would know his real name. I believe that Lily's grandparents were Dark wizards, and maybe Voldemort knew of them, and respected her because of her grandparents, although that is an unlikely and quite boring twist.
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VeronikaG - Feb 18, 2004 3:35 am (#37 of 183)
Is there any doubt that Tom Riddle is Voldemort? He even said it in the Chamber.
I wonder, could TR, the past self, somehow be disconnected from LV, even if they are the same person? Those who have seen Lord of the Rings probably remember the scene where Gollum splits into two, his present self Gollum, and his former self Smeagol. These are two different persons, even if they are the same. The Ring's power created Gollum from Smeagol, and destroyed the connection to his true personality. We don't know all that happened to Tom Riddle before he came to Hogwarts. We don't even know most of what happened during his first years. He could have been possessed by some dark object himself, having his Slytherin qualities springing out. The connection to Harry could be not only by the present evil wizard, but also the long lost TR. The pre-evil TR could be calling out to Harry, to try to warn him, at the same time as LV tries to kill him. I know this is possibly too much like Gollum/Frodo in LotR, but it could be. Maybe there is even some way to extract TR from LV. And maybe this should be on another thread.
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Anna L. Black - Feb 18, 2004 7:20 am (#38 of 183)
I liked the comparison to LotR, but I believe that TR and LV are not two different identities. TR was evil enough as himself - he released the Basilisk, and so killed a girl (Myrtle), and framed someone else (Hagrid). Also, he killed his father and granparents simply out of hatred. So, he didn't need LV to "possess" him in order to become evil. Also, just like you said - "Lord Voldemort" was a name that he took at school, only to make himself less like his father.
Back to the original topic, I think that the most likely explanation is that Harry subconciously "shares" Voldemort's memories as TR - it's just one of the things that he has as a result of the curse (like Parseltongue).
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Little Ginny - Feb 18, 2004 10:55 am (#39 of 183)
S.E. Jones: Where does it say the prophecy was made in October?
I'm sorry, I really thought it was October. I didn't have my books with me, and somehow my brain must have associated "cold and wet" with October and I remembered it the wrong way.
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Choices - Feb 18, 2004 11:24 am (#40 of 183)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
One possible explanation for baby Harry seeming to be familiar with Voldemort - we know of Voldemort's ability to possess others, so maybe he was with Harry in that way - as a family friend, babysitter, etc. Then again maybe baby Harry's little smile when he saw Voldemort was just something he did with everyone he saw.....maybe he was just a happy, friendly baby who smiled at everyone he met.
Another thought - maybe Voldemort, taking no chances, intended to kill both Harry and Neville. He just started with Harry, the AK backfired and he was never able to complete his plan to kill Neville.
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zelmia - Feb 18, 2004 1:48 pm (#41 of 183)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I have always assumed that Harry found the name familiar because he had seen it in the Trophy Room - that coupled with Ron's explanation that Riddle had received a Special Award. But until the discovery of the Diary, the name didn't have any significance for Harry and so he hadn't remembered seeing it.
I'm sorry, but I don't buy the idea that Harry knew Riddle in the past - his own past, not the past inside the Diary. In order for this to be even possible Riddle would had to have already emerged from the Diary prior to Harry's coming to Hogwarts. But we know that that is not the case since Riddle himself says, Enough for me to leave its pages at last.
Secondly, Riddle had already become Voldemort by the time Harry was born. Dumbledore remarks about how Riddle had gone so deep into the Dark Arts and undergone so many dangerous transformations that he was no longer recognisable as the brilliant young wizard who was once Head Boy here. So even if James and Lily knew Voldemort, they knew Voldemort not Tom Riddle. Voldemort had cast off the name - and identity - of Riddle decades before.
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popkin - Feb 18, 2004 11:56 pm (#42 of 183)
mother
Choices - Feb 18, 2004 10:24 am (#40 of 41)Another thought - maybe Voldemort, taking no chances, intended to kill both Harry and Neville. He just started with Harry, the AK backfired and he was never able to complete his plan to kill Neville.
I agree. What kind of an evil dark lord would leave a baby unharmed if it could possibly threaten his position of power?
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VeronikaG - Feb 19, 2004 4:00 am (#43 of 183)
I was not saying I thought LV had possessed Tom Riddle at Hogwarts. I know they are the same. What I meant was that Tom Riddle, as a young boy, maybe wasn't evil, he just had lots of anger in him, and the ability to use it. But sometime before he opened the chamber, he had been in contact with some evil dark arts object, or a dark wizard, maybe Grindelwald, that brought out the worst in him (and that was bad!), had him release the basilisk, become LV, and kill lots of people.
The diary was written at a time when he was already evil, so I wasn't thinking of that version of TR, but of an even earlier one, contacting Harry. Yes, it's a strange theory, but theories usually are.
Down in the Chamber TR told Harry there were similarities between them. Harry was also beaten up and neglected as a kid, and has a lot of anger in him. The big difference is that even though Harry has been in contact with evil lots of times, he has not let it get to him. Making sense?
And by the way, I agree with those who don't think he was Harry's neighbor. But I had another scary thought. Metamorphmagus....
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hopping hessian - Feb 19, 2004 7:05 am (#44 of 183)
"Extrodinary claims require extrordinary proof" -Bill Nye
I find this theory very interesting, but there's one thing that bothers me: if Lord Thingy was a metamorphmagus or whatever, and was trying to get close to the potters to see if they were the threat, why use his real name? He knew that Dumbledore knew who he was, or at least he should have suspected it, so why take the risk of being found out? Why not be Joel Davis or Sam Harrison or whatever.
Also, it's only the name that Harry finds familiar. He could have heard the name as a child, but didn't connect it with a person.
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VeronikaG - Feb 19, 2004 7:43 am (#45 of 183)
He saw the name as initials. That's an unusual way to refer to someone when talking, isn't it?
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Dan Wells - Feb 19, 2004 8:08 pm (#46 of 183)
Hi.
In a past post someone asked why JKR would hide he face of Voldemort in the film since she already knew what he looked like.
Perhaps the character hadn't been cast yet. This is the simplest explanation, though it's also the least 'fun'.
Or, she didn't want us to recognize the actor playing Voldemort.
Or (drum roll please) it *wasn't* voldemort that fired the spell.
Of all of them, I'm afraid the first one makes the most sense to me.
Whaddaya all think?
Dan
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FCBarca - Feb 20, 2004 3:54 am (#47 of 183)
I think it was because if you don't see their face, it makes it more scary, more dark (I personally don't think that not seeing someone's face makes it more scary, but it does make it scary for some people.)
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Chris. - Feb 28, 2004 9:34 pm (#48 of 183)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
I've heard people mention on this thread that Harry only remembers the name, TM Riddle, from his time in the Trophy Room when getting showed his father's plaque. We're confusing the book and the movie. Although, there has been hints that this could be a bit brom the book which JKR scrapped but agreed for it to be used in the movie.
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Ladybug220 - Feb 28, 2004 10:59 pm (#49 of 183)
...moves faster than Severus Snape confronted with shampoo
It's Ron that remembers the name since he had to polish it after throwing up slugs on it while doing detention.
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Little Ginny - Feb 29, 2004 9:40 am (#50 of 183)
But the name sounds to Harry like that of a friend, not simply someone who he knew. So if he had contact with that name before, it must have been somthing he remembered as positive. I agree with many of you that it's highly unlikely that Lord Thingy/ Tom Riddle had friendly contact with baby Harry. So in my opinion there must be other possibilities:
1. It was the "Voldemort's-powers"-part of Harry who remembered Tom Riddle as its former owner.
OR
2. Harry knew, as a baby someone named Riddle but not Tom. It could be possible that not all the magic abilities Voldemort alias Tom has/had came from his mother- perhaps there is some magic in the Riddle family as well, and one of the (perhaps very few) magical members of them fought on Harry's parents side and in course of that visited them and played with baby Harry (or brought his child who played with baby Harry). What makes me think that this is possible, was that, as Veronika says, it are the initials that Harry notices. Now, TM does not say that very much, so I would assume that Harry simply remembered "Riddle" and thought the "TM"-part belonged to it.
OR
3. something completely different, like it doesn't mean anything at all (of course, I don't like that)
Yeah, we've talked about this one before, actually. That part has always bugged me too. I'm not sure what the consensus was about it.. I think most people thought it meant nothing, but hey, I'll buck the system and say that it does! ah ha!
I'm not sure about your theory though. Wouldn't Dumbledore notice a Riddle character? Weren't Lily and James in hiding by the time Harry was born? They were in the order, wouldn't they know the name Riddle?
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Madame Librarian - Feb 13, 2004 9:47 pm (#2 of 183)
Sly, I agree with all the holes you've punched, but so far that's all I can come up with. Maybe he wasn't a neighbor or anything close like that, but somehow was able to insinuate himself into the area near the Potters, just for a bit (deliveryman, transformed into a harmless old geezer admiring a cute baby).
Do we know exactly when the Potters were put into hiding? Were they also in hiding in a Muggle sense? Is it possible that they were able to see Lily's folks and Petunia, the thinking being that the Muggle world was reasonably protected from the DEs? Or maybe they could have Muggle visitors, and Riddle is somehow related to the Evans's (uwww, this idea makes me nervous--like it leads to some unpleasant conclusions).
Ciao. Barb
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Mad Madame Mim - Feb 13, 2004 9:58 pm (#3 of 183)
"Don't tell me you've never heard of the marvellous Madame Mim?"
Maybe Harry has always been unconsciously aware of Tom/Voldemort's presence, even when Voldemort was weak. The scar doesn't necessarily have to hurt for Tom to be creeping into Harry's subconscious.
Just a thought.
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I Am Used Vlad - Feb 13, 2004 10:09 pm (#4 of 183)
I Am Almighty!
Harry was only 15 months old when his parents were killed. Is it possible to remember a name from that early in life? I know nothing of early childhood development, but that seems young to recall a name more than ten years later.
It could be different for wizards, though.
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S.E. Jones - Feb 13, 2004 10:46 pm (#5 of 183)
Let it snow!
I've heard it suggested once that the reason the name sounded familiar but half-forgotten was because of the (subconscious) connection Harry shares to Voldemort. Basically, it is a piece of Voldemort in Harry that would be fondly remembering his childhood self, T. M. Riddle....
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Sly Girl - Feb 13, 2004 11:17 pm (#6 of 183)
Ah... good explanation S.E. That does sound feasible. Maybe there's something else going on we'll understand by book 7? heh
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Sherbie Lemon - Feb 14, 2004 7:58 am (#7 of 183)
I found an interesting quote I had forgotten about that I think has a place here: "There are strange likenesses between us, after all. Both half-bloods, orphans, raised by muggles. Probably the only two Parselmouths to come out of Hogwarts since the great Slytherin himself. We even look something alike..." (CoS p.317 US)
I like your explanation S.E. I think perhaps, parts of Voldemort got transferred through that attack in Godric's Hollow into Harry. But all those similarities! And there are no coincidences, right?
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septentrion - Feb 14, 2004 1:53 pm (#8 of 183)
Art by Makani, icon by Pearle
They're not coincidences because LV choosed to kill the more like him baby 15 years ago and we all know he failed. And when he marked Harry and made him his equal he gave him what was lacking Harry to be reaaly similar to him.
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Madame Librarian - Feb 14, 2004 4:07 pm (#9 of 183)
So, it sounds like most of you who posted here are seeing the memory Harry as an "echo" of the time when the attack at Godric's Hollow took place. What Harry thinks he remembers as someone named T. M. Riddle is in fact Voldemort with the transformed Riddle still deep inside.
I agree that seems to make sense because it is a logical way to think of it, but, you know, I have a feeling JKR is being even trickier here. So, I'll ponder on it some more.
Ciao. Barb
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Kip Carter - Feb 14, 2004 9:57 pm (#10 of 183)
co-Host with Steve on the Lexicon Forum, but he has the final say as the Owner!
We know in Book 5 that Harry is able to strongly visualize what is happening with what Voldemort is thinking and doing. Can we completely disregard the chance that Harry's faint memory could be what pre-Voldemort as a very young toddler Tom Riddle could have remember about his grandfather (the elder Riddle who was killed along with his wife and his son, Tom's hated father) visiting him at the orphanage? Think about that for a few minutes!
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popkin - Feb 15, 2004 2:01 am (#11 of 183)
mother
I like to think that somehow, as a baby, Harry knew Tom Riddle. I don't know how it could be possible, since, apparently, Tom had already become the hideous Lord Voldemort by the time Harry was born. But I think that the clue Barb has quoted is very clear - Harry remembers a long forgotten friend named Tom Riddle.
Maybe, as a very young child, Harry had some kind of vivid dreams about Tom, and vaguely remembers the dreams. Since there is a connection between them, maybe Harry has many, many dreams about Tom that he doesn't quite remember when he's awake. Maybe we'll see some dreams like that, dreams of Tom's childhood, in the next books.
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Sly Girl - Feb 15, 2004 7:59 am (#12 of 183)
That's true- Harry does talk about his dreams a bit in Book one- we know he dreamt of the flying motorbike, we know he dreamt of a green flashing light.. so maybe there is something to that.
As for Kip's idea. Hmm, I don't know why, but the thought of Harry remembering young Riddle's childhood gave me the creeps!
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mollis - Feb 15, 2004 9:08 am (#13 of 183)
Edited by Feb 15, 2004 8:09 am
This is something that has been bothering me for awhile too, Madame Librarian, I'm glad you started this thread!
My thoughts on this are connected to the scene in SS movie of Voldy's attack on Harry. When Voldy enters the room to attack baby Harry and Harry sees Voldy - he smiles at him! Lily has just been murdered before his eyes, but baby Harry looks at Voldy with more of a smile. Harry is not scared of this stranger in his room - possibly because Voldy is no stranger to Harry, Harry just knows him as Tom Riddle.
Since we are told JKR wrote this scene herself, and I think we are considering it cannon, it lends a great deal to the idea that Tom Riddle/Voldemort was friendly to Harry as a baby. We have 2 pieces of evidence that indicate Harry knew Tom's name and face as a child. Why or how Tom Riddle got to be friendly with the Potters is beyond me though. Unless he really was doing the dual-personalities thing - Evil Dark Lord Voldemort by night, innocent (maybe even muggle) neighbor Tom Riddle by day. Could have been his disguise during the early days of his reign of terror. Assuming this were true, and that the population at large didn't know Voldemort was once Tom Riddle, it could help further explain why Dumbledore calls him Tom in OOTP.
And I agree with Sly Girl, Kip, your idea gives me the creeps! Mainly because if Harry has memories from Voldy/Tom's childhood, he may possess traces of memories from Tom's whole life. Talk about a can of worms!
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Madame Librarian - Feb 15, 2004 9:17 am (#14 of 183)
Let me throw this scenario on the table (I did something similar a while back, but it probably fell through the Veil already)--
OK, we know that Voldie was at the peak of his powers from 1970 to 1981 and that Harry was born in 1980. We also know that Riddle had mastered so many magical transformations in his quest for immortality that few recognized him as the brilliant, young fellow who graduated from Hogwarts, Tom Riddle. In other words, he no longer looked at all like the handsome Tom. But--does that automatically mean that he could not transform back to his normal state for the purposes of furthering his evil goals? Could he not go back to looking like Tom (who would by 1970 be a handsome middle-aged Wizard in his low 40s)? It would be a very useful spell.
Voldie hears of the Prophecy in 1979, and he's fully aware of the need to keep tabs on potential candidates who fit the profile of "thrice defied him" and having a kid at the end of July. As of the spring of 1980 let's say, there are two likely candidates (though Neville and Harry are not born yet, it is apparent that Alice and Lily are both due around the same time, and it is known that both couples are active Order members).
Now, there are two critical questions that could make my theory work: 1)--When exactly did Lily and James go into hiding? When DD heard the Prophecy (1979)? When Lily became pregnant and therefore a candidate to produce the child who could vanquish Voldie? Is there any canon answer that I've missed? And that leads to the 2nd question...
2)--When exactly was Wormtail made Secret-Keeper? According to the Lex, he was already passing information to Voldie. If he's made S-K shortly before the attack on Halloween, 1981, is it not possible that the Potter's hideout was breachable before that? If he's made S-K well before that, he could have passed the information to Voldie at any time earlier.
If he was able to find the Potters, and if he was in his Tom Riddle form, his charm and talent for persuasion (through spells, perhaps) could have put him in direct contact with infant/toddler Harry in order to assess if this is the kid he needs to get at. He does not need to act rashly here because he knows he'll have Wormtail to pass on information should DD upgrade the protections on the Potters.
Could it not be that what Harry remembers in that scene with the diary is not a false memory or one produced by the magic transference of some of Voldie's powers of the failed AK curse, but an actual memory of that nice guy who played with him a bit when he was a little 'un?
Ciao. Barb
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FCBarca - Feb 15, 2004 9:22 am (#15 of 183)
I believe it to be because of the connection. I believe it also to be because of the 'transfer' that occurred with the 'curse that failed', as this also explained why Harry has a similar likeness to Tom Riddle.
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mollis - Feb 15, 2004 9:47 am (#16 of 183)
Edited by Feb 15, 2004 8:48 am
Madame Librarian wrote: "If he was able to find the Potters, and if he was in his Tom Riddle form, his charm and talent for persuasion (through spells, perhaps) could have put him in direct contact with infant/toddler Harry in order to assess if this is the kid he needs to get at. He does not need to act rashly here because he knows he'll have Wormtail to pass on information should DD upgrade the protections on the Potters."
Brilliant Barb! I completely agree with what you wrote. I think it makes sense that Voldy would study the 2 kids in question to learn which is the likely candidate for fulfilling the prophecy. Perhaps he studied Harry and the Lestranges studied Neville (that would explain why maybe they were the ones to crucio them later)? Voldy chose Harry due to similar background or some other reason.
I highly doubt that the Potters were protected via SK for very long (doesn't Sirius say something to Peter about running straight to Voldy with the 'good news'). It seems likely that they did that charm just before Halloween, perhaps due to a warning from a spy (Snape?)that Voldy was getting ready to strike. They had probably been keeping a low profile since the prophecy - unless they didn't know about it. We don't really know if DD told the Potters about the prophecy. He may have just told them that Voldy was after Harry without much explanation.
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I Am Used Vlad - Feb 15, 2004 11:13 am (#17 of 183)
I Am Almighty!
Wasn't the prophecy made in 1980, shortly before Harry's birth?
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Little Ginny - Feb 15, 2004 12:06 pm (#18 of 183)
No, the prophecy was made in October, but Harry was born in July the following year, that means the prophecy was made in October 1979.
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Anna L. Black - Feb 15, 2004 2:08 pm (#19 of 183)
So... *counting* The prophecy was given exactly 9 months before the birth date... Very interesting. Perhaps what triggered Trelawney's trance was... ehm, the process of making the baby that the prophecy talks about? But I'm going off-topic here...
What I meant to say was: From what DD says, it seems as though Voldemort acted rashly when he went to attack the Potters - so he didn't exactly have time to "settle down" as Tom and try to make close contact with Harry. However, what I'm saying is not based on solid facts from the books, so it might be wrong.
No, wait... I was about to write a whole theory when I figured that I missed a year... OK, forget everything I've said, it makes perfect sense - Voldemort did have the time to do it all. But that makes me wonder what really made him choose Harry and not Neville. And also - why did he have to wait that long?? He could have killed Harry before that, especially if he was pretending to be a lovely neighbour.
Now I'm confused...
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popkin - Feb 15, 2004 4:42 pm (#20 of 183)
mother
mollis, I agree with your post (#13) that in the SS movie, in the scene written by JKR, baby Harry looks as though he recognizes and likes the person pointing a wand at him. It's interesting that the person with the wand has his/her face hidden by a hood. JKR had a clear idea of what Lord Voldemort looked like at this time. Why would she write the scene with his face hidden?
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S.E. Jones - Feb 15, 2004 5:31 pm (#21 of 183)
Let it snow!
Little Ginny: No, the prophecy was made in October, but Harry was born in July the following year, that means the prophecy was made in October 1979.
Where does it say the prophecy was made in October? All Dumbledore said was that he heard it "on a cold, wet night sixteen years ago, in a room above the bar at the Hog's Head Inn. I had gone there to see an applicant for the post of Divination teacher, though it was against my inclination to allow the the subject of Divination to continue at all...." (OotP, ch37, pg840, US). The only other thing we know is that Trewlany has been working there "nearly sixteen years." (OotP, ch 15, pg314, US). He could have been interviewing her at the start of term (fall 1979), prior to the second semester starting (winter 1979/1980) or during the end of the last semester for the following school year (spring 1980), or any day between, for that matter....
EDIT: It seems to me that Voldemort hadn't really settled on a baby (Harry or Neville) until shortly before the incident at Godric's Hollow, thus their need to go into hiding. Plus, he would need time to figure out who was in the Order, who had a child, who had defied him three times, what that meant exactly, whose kid was born at the end of July, and then decide between them which kid was referenced in the Prophecy. Harry was only a year and three months old when the attempted killing happened and so I don't think he would have had time to do all that and set up house next to the Potters....
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FCBarca - Feb 16, 2004 4:32 am (#22 of 183)
'But that makes me wonder what really made him choose Harry and not Neville'
It was because Harry was more like Voldemort, because Harry is a half-blood like Voldemort, and Neville is a pure-blood. Voldemort saw himself in Harry before he'd seen him.
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Anna L. Black - Feb 16, 2004 10:00 am (#23 of 183)
I know, it's just.... I'm not comfortable with this explanation. I have a gut feeling that DD is somehow wrong here.... But it's probably just in my head. Go figure.
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Madame Librarian - Feb 16, 2004 10:47 am (#24 of 183)
Anna, do you mean that DD is wrong here when he tells Harry in OoP that it simply could not be Neville? Here's the quote, chapter 37, pg. 842 (US):
"The official record was relabeled after Voldemort's attack on you as a child," said Dumbledore. "It seemed plain the to the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy that Voldemort could only have tried to kill you cause he knew you to be the one to whom Sibyll was referring."
"Then--it might not be me?" said Harry.
"I am afraid," said Dumbledore slowly, looking as though every word cost him great effort, "that there is no doubt that is is you."
"But you said--Neville was born at the end of July too--and his mum and dad--"
"You are forgetting the next part of the prophecy, the final identifying feature of the boy who could vanquish Voldemort...Voldemort himself would 'mark him as his equal.' And so he did, Harry. He chose you, not Neville. He gave you the scar that has proved both blessing and curse."
"But he might have chosen wrong!" said Harry. "He might have marked the wrong person!"
"He chose the boy he thought most likely to be a danger to him," said Dumbledore. "And notice this, Harry. He chose, not the pureblood (which according to his creed, is the only wizard worth being or knowing), but the half-blood, like himself. He saw himself in you before he had ever seem you, and in marking you with that scar, he did not kill you, as he intended, but gave you powers, and a future, which fitted you to escape him not once, but four times so far--something that neither your parents, nor Neville's parent, ever achieved."
[OK, sorry for the long quote, but I think it's sometimes a good idea to have in repeated on the thread to help people form ideas.]
Getting back to Anna's comment--there is something in DD's response to Harry that despite his absolute confidence in believing Harry to be "the one," worries me. DD has made mistakes before and is the first to admit he is fallible, so I am uncomfortable with his assurance here. Also, the way he says it--"...slowy, looking as though every word cost him great effort..."--is he covering something up here, and he must convince Harry that he's chosen for a reason beyond what Voldemort started?
Anyway, my post had put us adrift from the Riddle/friend subject and if we get going on this particular bit, I suggest we move this post and Anna's to the Dumbledore thread.
Ciao. Barb
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popkin - Feb 16, 2004 11:38 am (#25 of 183)
mother
Edited by Feb 16, 2004 10:54 am
It's interesting that it is Tom Riddle's name, in written form, that Harry recognizes. Maybe Lily or James, or someone else that Harry knew, a grandparent perhaps, was a childhood friend of Tom Riddle's and reminisced about him with Harry.
I really think there must be a strong connection between Lily and Tom/LV, otherwise he would not have hesitated to kill her when she stood between him and Harry in Godric's Hollow. Maybe the "long forgotten friend" is a clue to their relationship.
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zelmia - Feb 16, 2004 1:23 pm (#26 of 183)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I think we may be taking that passage too literally, if I may be so blunt. I think Rowling was simply giving the reader an understanding of why Harry was so compelled by the Diary, even though it didn't appear to have any significance. He only felt as if the name should mean something to him ...like the name of some childhood friend half-forgotten.
Most people can relate to that feeling of "having something on the tip of your tongue" or of feeling that something has some meaning that you just can't quite put your finger on. Here Rowling has simply given an analogy that is universally comprehensible: that of the "half-forgotten childhood friend." I don't think there is any real significance to the passage other than that.
But obviously I could be wrong.
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Madame Librarian - Feb 16, 2004 2:58 pm (#27 of 183)
Zelmia, I don't believe that JKR is just using a simple analogy to explain Harry's compulsion to read the diary. JKR chooses her phrases very carefully and this reference to a classic Proustian sensation (as in "Remembrance of Things Past" where the main character is transported back to a memory in his childhood by the aroma of baking cookies) that Harry feels upon seeing the name T. M. Riddle is supposed to be a hint that there is really something to remember. That feeling Harry has of having not only known this Riddle, but of having him as a friend is what compels him to delve into the diary. It is stronger than mere curiousity posed by the blank diary pages.
Speaking from personal experience, a half-remembered anything (name, title, song, event, accident) but especially a friend or acquaitence creates a powerful feeling of frustration when your brain can't produce the facts. That tip-of-the-tongue phenomenon is different than just wanting to know what's inside something.
Ciao. Barb
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Madame Librarian - Feb 16, 2004 3:12 pm (#28 of 183)
Hi, folks, I've been thinking about Anna's post #23 and my subsequent one. I am transferring them to the Dumbledore thread because, though they are off-topic for this thread, I think they might be an interesting issue to take up there. Wish me luck in getting everything over there. Of course, I'll leave them here so you can figure out what I'm talking about.
Ciao. Barb
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Detail Seeker - Feb 16, 2004 3:47 pm (#29 of 183)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
We should try to get to know, from when there could be a rememberance of that name, if we want to find things that nourish this theory or disprove it.
Where can Harry have heard that name:
I doubt, that he will have any memories from his time with his parents. So, we should not look there with priority.
He might have heard such a name at the Dursley´s - Old Tom Riddle (LV´s father) a friend of Vernon´s father ?
Some mentioning in the photo album, Hagrid presented to him ? Not likely, but possible.
Chocolate frog cards ?
Subconscious remembering having seen the name, when he was shown the plaquette with his father´s name on it in the Trophy Room ? Possible.
That is, what I would think of. I don´t know, if this helps further.
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virgoddess1313 - Feb 16, 2004 4:44 pm (#30 of 183)
I don't think he could remember Tom Riddle from before his parents deaths, or even from before that. I'm no psychologist (definately far from it), but we've been learning about child development in my psychology class. Before the age of three, children don't have the proper neural connections to remember things longterm. Any memories they have from before the age of three tend to be things people have told them since then that they then percieve as a memory.
But, since Harry seems to remember the attack on his parents, that sort of blows that out of the water. I don't think JKR was thinking that scientifically.
I still think, though, that if Harry had heard the name of Tom Riddle before he came into contact with the diary, it was sometime in his childhood.
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Madame Librarian - Feb 16, 2004 6:13 pm (#31 of 183)
I think we have to recognize that for Harry, and for wizards in general, perhaps, certain memories may begin at an earlier age than in Muggles, especially memories fraught with emotion, even happy ones.
This next bit I'm going to bring up is very disturbing to consider (and I apologize if it's been said before somewhere), but there's a part of me that is suspicious of various friends associated with Lily and James. Yes, of course, Pettigrew's true sympathies are well known, but at other times I can see JKR weaving a surprising plot involving practically everyone else who we believe to be on the good side. I even had the awful idea that Lily and James themselves were somehow mixed up with Voldemort in a way that would have him and Harry together during Harry's first year. Aaaack! It's too terrible to ponder.
Ciao. Barb
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virgoddess1313 - Feb 16, 2004 7:32 pm (#32 of 183)
Terrible, but a good thought. I would believe a plot twist like that.. the dark side to the Potters. But with all the doubt Harry felt in OtP concerning his father, I'd hate to see how he would react to that. But it is a good argument in favor of the idea that Harr y somehow knew Voldie/Riddle in his childhood.
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tracie1976 - Feb 16, 2004 7:38 pm (#33 of 183)
"Harry needs her badly." JKR on Hermione...interview from The Times June 30, 2000 artwork for avatar by logansrogue at livejournal.com
Could it be possible that Voldemort visited Harry in dreams and thats why Harry feels like he's a half-forgotten friend?
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popkin - Feb 16, 2004 11:31 pm (#34 of 183)
mother
tracie1976, that makes sense to me. If Harry has been dreaming Voldemort's dreams of long corridors with him, why wouldn't he be sharing other dreams as well? It could be that Voldemort occasionally dreams of happier times, times when he was very human and not yet evil at all. These memory dreams, or even dreams of what could have been if Tom had made different choices, might never have woken Harry, and so he doesn't consciously remember them - he might have only a vague, grasping feeling of trying to remember them.
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Leviosa - Feb 17, 2004 2:26 am (#35 of 183)
But Harry has those dreams only since Voldemort has been growing stonger (GoF and OotP). Since GoF the connection between Voldemort and Harry is strong enough to transfer dreams. But in CoS Voldemort was very weak and there were no signs of their connection at all.
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FCBarca - Feb 17, 2004 3:08 am (#36 of 183)
I think it was because of the connection, it certainly is the most logical answer. About Tom riddle knowing James and Lily; that's impossible, as they're too young. As I'm a firm believer that Tom Riddle is Voldemort, it would make sense if James and Lily knew Voldemort, although i can't see why they would know his real name. I believe that Lily's grandparents were Dark wizards, and maybe Voldemort knew of them, and respected her because of her grandparents, although that is an unlikely and quite boring twist.
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VeronikaG - Feb 18, 2004 3:35 am (#37 of 183)
Is there any doubt that Tom Riddle is Voldemort? He even said it in the Chamber.
I wonder, could TR, the past self, somehow be disconnected from LV, even if they are the same person? Those who have seen Lord of the Rings probably remember the scene where Gollum splits into two, his present self Gollum, and his former self Smeagol. These are two different persons, even if they are the same. The Ring's power created Gollum from Smeagol, and destroyed the connection to his true personality. We don't know all that happened to Tom Riddle before he came to Hogwarts. We don't even know most of what happened during his first years. He could have been possessed by some dark object himself, having his Slytherin qualities springing out. The connection to Harry could be not only by the present evil wizard, but also the long lost TR. The pre-evil TR could be calling out to Harry, to try to warn him, at the same time as LV tries to kill him. I know this is possibly too much like Gollum/Frodo in LotR, but it could be. Maybe there is even some way to extract TR from LV. And maybe this should be on another thread.
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Anna L. Black - Feb 18, 2004 7:20 am (#38 of 183)
I liked the comparison to LotR, but I believe that TR and LV are not two different identities. TR was evil enough as himself - he released the Basilisk, and so killed a girl (Myrtle), and framed someone else (Hagrid). Also, he killed his father and granparents simply out of hatred. So, he didn't need LV to "possess" him in order to become evil. Also, just like you said - "Lord Voldemort" was a name that he took at school, only to make himself less like his father.
Back to the original topic, I think that the most likely explanation is that Harry subconciously "shares" Voldemort's memories as TR - it's just one of the things that he has as a result of the curse (like Parseltongue).
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Little Ginny - Feb 18, 2004 10:55 am (#39 of 183)
S.E. Jones: Where does it say the prophecy was made in October?
I'm sorry, I really thought it was October. I didn't have my books with me, and somehow my brain must have associated "cold and wet" with October and I remembered it the wrong way.
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Choices - Feb 18, 2004 11:24 am (#40 of 183)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
One possible explanation for baby Harry seeming to be familiar with Voldemort - we know of Voldemort's ability to possess others, so maybe he was with Harry in that way - as a family friend, babysitter, etc. Then again maybe baby Harry's little smile when he saw Voldemort was just something he did with everyone he saw.....maybe he was just a happy, friendly baby who smiled at everyone he met.
Another thought - maybe Voldemort, taking no chances, intended to kill both Harry and Neville. He just started with Harry, the AK backfired and he was never able to complete his plan to kill Neville.
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zelmia - Feb 18, 2004 1:48 pm (#41 of 183)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I have always assumed that Harry found the name familiar because he had seen it in the Trophy Room - that coupled with Ron's explanation that Riddle had received a Special Award. But until the discovery of the Diary, the name didn't have any significance for Harry and so he hadn't remembered seeing it.
I'm sorry, but I don't buy the idea that Harry knew Riddle in the past - his own past, not the past inside the Diary. In order for this to be even possible Riddle would had to have already emerged from the Diary prior to Harry's coming to Hogwarts. But we know that that is not the case since Riddle himself says, Enough for me to leave its pages at last.
Secondly, Riddle had already become Voldemort by the time Harry was born. Dumbledore remarks about how Riddle had gone so deep into the Dark Arts and undergone so many dangerous transformations that he was no longer recognisable as the brilliant young wizard who was once Head Boy here. So even if James and Lily knew Voldemort, they knew Voldemort not Tom Riddle. Voldemort had cast off the name - and identity - of Riddle decades before.
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popkin - Feb 18, 2004 11:56 pm (#42 of 183)
mother
Choices - Feb 18, 2004 10:24 am (#40 of 41)Another thought - maybe Voldemort, taking no chances, intended to kill both Harry and Neville. He just started with Harry, the AK backfired and he was never able to complete his plan to kill Neville.
I agree. What kind of an evil dark lord would leave a baby unharmed if it could possibly threaten his position of power?
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VeronikaG - Feb 19, 2004 4:00 am (#43 of 183)
I was not saying I thought LV had possessed Tom Riddle at Hogwarts. I know they are the same. What I meant was that Tom Riddle, as a young boy, maybe wasn't evil, he just had lots of anger in him, and the ability to use it. But sometime before he opened the chamber, he had been in contact with some evil dark arts object, or a dark wizard, maybe Grindelwald, that brought out the worst in him (and that was bad!), had him release the basilisk, become LV, and kill lots of people.
The diary was written at a time when he was already evil, so I wasn't thinking of that version of TR, but of an even earlier one, contacting Harry. Yes, it's a strange theory, but theories usually are.
Down in the Chamber TR told Harry there were similarities between them. Harry was also beaten up and neglected as a kid, and has a lot of anger in him. The big difference is that even though Harry has been in contact with evil lots of times, he has not let it get to him. Making sense?
And by the way, I agree with those who don't think he was Harry's neighbor. But I had another scary thought. Metamorphmagus....
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hopping hessian - Feb 19, 2004 7:05 am (#44 of 183)
"Extrodinary claims require extrordinary proof" -Bill Nye
I find this theory very interesting, but there's one thing that bothers me: if Lord Thingy was a metamorphmagus or whatever, and was trying to get close to the potters to see if they were the threat, why use his real name? He knew that Dumbledore knew who he was, or at least he should have suspected it, so why take the risk of being found out? Why not be Joel Davis or Sam Harrison or whatever.
Also, it's only the name that Harry finds familiar. He could have heard the name as a child, but didn't connect it with a person.
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VeronikaG - Feb 19, 2004 7:43 am (#45 of 183)
He saw the name as initials. That's an unusual way to refer to someone when talking, isn't it?
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Dan Wells - Feb 19, 2004 8:08 pm (#46 of 183)
Hi.
In a past post someone asked why JKR would hide he face of Voldemort in the film since she already knew what he looked like.
Perhaps the character hadn't been cast yet. This is the simplest explanation, though it's also the least 'fun'.
Or, she didn't want us to recognize the actor playing Voldemort.
Or (drum roll please) it *wasn't* voldemort that fired the spell.
Of all of them, I'm afraid the first one makes the most sense to me.
Whaddaya all think?
Dan
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FCBarca - Feb 20, 2004 3:54 am (#47 of 183)
I think it was because if you don't see their face, it makes it more scary, more dark (I personally don't think that not seeing someone's face makes it more scary, but it does make it scary for some people.)
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Chris. - Feb 28, 2004 9:34 pm (#48 of 183)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
I've heard people mention on this thread that Harry only remembers the name, TM Riddle, from his time in the Trophy Room when getting showed his father's plaque. We're confusing the book and the movie. Although, there has been hints that this could be a bit brom the book which JKR scrapped but agreed for it to be used in the movie.
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Ladybug220 - Feb 28, 2004 10:59 pm (#49 of 183)
...moves faster than Severus Snape confronted with shampoo
It's Ron that remembers the name since he had to polish it after throwing up slugs on it while doing detention.
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Little Ginny - Feb 29, 2004 9:40 am (#50 of 183)
But the name sounds to Harry like that of a friend, not simply someone who he knew. So if he had contact with that name before, it must have been somthing he remembered as positive. I agree with many of you that it's highly unlikely that Lord Thingy/ Tom Riddle had friendly contact with baby Harry. So in my opinion there must be other possibilities:
1. It was the "Voldemort's-powers"-part of Harry who remembered Tom Riddle as its former owner.
OR
2. Harry knew, as a baby someone named Riddle but not Tom. It could be possible that not all the magic abilities Voldemort alias Tom has/had came from his mother- perhaps there is some magic in the Riddle family as well, and one of the (perhaps very few) magical members of them fought on Harry's parents side and in course of that visited them and played with baby Harry (or brought his child who played with baby Harry). What makes me think that this is possible, was that, as Veronika says, it are the initials that Harry notices. Now, TM does not say that very much, so I would assume that Harry simply remembered "Riddle" and thought the "TM"-part belonged to it.
OR
3. something completely different, like it doesn't mean anything at all (of course, I don't like that)
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T. M. Riddle, a half-forgotten friend (Post 51 to 100)
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Madame Librarian - Feb 29, 2004 1:45 pm (#51 of 183)
Little Ginny, your point #2 about Harry knowing someone named Riddle but not necessarily Riddle/Voldie is brilliant!! Wow. It really just popped as the kind of thing JKR would do. The name stamped on the cover of the diary was T. M. Riddle, not Tom Riddle. Again, wow.
OK, so who could it be? Old Mr. Riddle and Mr. Riddle's parents were murdered by Voldie 50 years ago (1944), so that's not who it could be. It's not Voldie's mom, she died shortly after giving birth, or so we're told, by young Tom himself. Is he telling the truth? All kinds of possibilities open up if somehow she's still alive. Was there a sibling or cousin and their offspring? Another possibility for someone to be in Harry's world.
These are the ones I can imagine working out (in an elegant JKR sort of way). Does anyone else see the potential in Little Ginny's suggestion?
Ciao. Barb
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Czarina - Feb 29, 2004 4:07 pm (#52 of 183)
A lot of potential, actually. Still, I hold with the belief that it was the transferred powers in Harry that recognised the name "T.M. Riddle."
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Choices - Mar 2, 2004 10:50 am (#53 of 183)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Still, I hold with the belief that it was the transferred powers in Harry that recognised the name "T.M. Riddle."
This sounds like a logical explanation to me, too.
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zelmia - Mar 10, 2004 1:58 pm (#54 of 183)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Harry and Ron are supposed to meet Draco Malfoy in the Trophy Room for The Midnight Duel in PS/SS. True, they didn't really spend any time there, but Harry could have caught a glimpse of Riddle's plaque.
Also, I did mean that Ron had seen the name because of repeatedly polishing said plaque (sorry my poor typing caused confusion over my point). He says that the name sounds familiar. So naturally Harry thinks the name is familiar - or should be - to himself as well.
Remember he had a similar feeling when the Trio were trying to figure out who Nicolas Flammel was. He had read the name somewhere, it was familiar to him, but he couldn't remember where or why. I think the apparent familiarity of the name "T M Riddle" is pretty much the same situation as Nicolas Flammel.
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Mattew Bates - Mar 10, 2004 7:29 pm (#55 of 183)
“Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars.” Kahlil Gibran
I think it's much more plausible that the disembodied Voldemist spent many a night dwelling on his past, wallowing in his disembodied predicament. Asleep or awake, Harry's connection to him would allow Voldie's dwellings to creep into his subconscious. Because Harry has no friends, that kind of unconscious familiarity with anyone could be mistaken for "friendly."
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Madame Librarian - Mar 10, 2004 9:11 pm (#56 of 183)
Harry has no friends? Mattew, could you please elaborate on this a bit because I don't understand how you've come to that conclusion? I know Harry had a miserable social life before he came to Hogwarts, but by the time he's contemplating the diary in CoS, Harry is close to Ron and Hermione, liked by his Quidditch teammates, and he's aware that the Weasleys and Hagrid care about him very much as do DD and McGonagall.
Ciao. Barb
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Mattew Bates - Mar 11, 2004 1:41 pm (#57 of 183)
“Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars.” Kahlil Gibran
My apologies, Barb. Allow me to clarify my point. Up until he went to Hogwarts, Harry had no friends. (A poor choice of verb tense on my part.) My point was that the disembodied Voldemort had roughly ten years of time to dwell on his past, possibly filtering that subconsciously (and probably unknowingly) through his and Harry's connection before Harry had a friend. Harry thinks he remembers T.M. Riddle as a childhood friend, but he had no childhood friends, so he has no context to compare that to - just a vague sense of familiarity.
Also, I doubt Tom Riddle had much (socially) to do with the Potters during the first fifteen months of Harry's life - otherwise, Harry would likely have felt the same vague sense of connection from reading Remus' name on his luggage on the train ride in for year three. It may be possible that T.M. Riddle was baby-sitting Harry more often than Uncle Moony, but I doubt it very highly
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scully jones - Mar 11, 2004 2:15 pm (#58 of 183)
yeah right
Zelmia, The reason the "familiarity" with the name T.M. Riddle is more important than his "familiarity" with the name Nicolas Flamel is this:
Nicolas Flamel is just a familiar sounding name.
T.M. Riddle seems like an old friend.
I don't think just seeing his name somewhere would give Harry that feeling inside.
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Chris. - Mar 11, 2004 3:04 pm (#59 of 183)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
I have read through this thread, and thought about the different ideas. However, I think some of Voldemort's knowledge was given to Harry too, when he gave him the scar.
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Little Ginny - Mar 12, 2004 6:47 am (#60 of 183)
If Harry had lots of contact with lupin as a baby, and therefore subconsciously remembered him, he would feel he read a long-forgotten-friend's name if he read "Remus" or "Moony", because this would be how his parents called Lupin, the name baby Harry heard, but Harry wouldn't remmber the name "R.J. Lupin", because it's very unlikely Remus was ever called this among his friends.
Therefore, I think it is possible that it was the surename "Riddle" that caught Harry's attention, and that might indicate that whatever Riddle baby Harry knew, it was the surename he heard from him.
Also I don't think that if Voldie's spirit dwelled in thoughts about his past, he would remember the "Riddle"-part of his name with very friendly feelings. In CoS Tom says that he always hated his name, so young Tom would probably thought of himself only as "Tom" or maybe as "Tom Marvolo", until he created his new name.
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Madame Librarian - Mar 12, 2004 7:02 am (#61 of 183)
Agreed, Little Ginny. I may be wrong, but just the way JKR has phrased and staged that little scene makes me think that there's something stronger that a planted memory (from the scar/attack incident). I had a sense that Harry was experiencing something akin to what we would feel if we heard a snippet of melody or saw a picture from book we read in childhood (or that Proustian thing--the smell of baking cookies) that produces an almost physical recall of a real thing from your past. You are almost transported back to that time for a second or two.
I also think that since the CoS plotline was a self-contained one, i.e., it has its own beginning-middle-end resolution that doesn't really carry over to the next book since Voldie isn't really in this one (I know, I know, don't all jump on me at once. There are tons of clues and hints about characters and how the WW works, but that's not what I mean here), JKR would have said something to wrap up this little phrase at the end when Harry is confronting Tom Riddle.
We already know about the mechanism of something transferred from Voldie to Harry through the attack, so it would have been quite natural for JKR to add a line or two like, "Harry was suddenly knew that the Tom Riddle standing before him had never been a friend from long ago. As he felt his scar throbbing, he knew the memory was a false one that came from the strange and terrifying powers he gained when he became The Boy Who Lived. No, Tom was never a friend, never."
Ciao. Barb
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Tomoé - Mar 12, 2004 8:41 am (#62 of 183)
Back in business
"Harry couldn't explain, even to himself, why he didn't just throw Riddle's diary away. The fact was that even though he knew the diary was blank, he kept adsent-mindedly picking it up and turning the pages, as though it was a story he wanted to finish. And while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was small, and half-forgotten." (UK CoS p.174, italic JKR)
"Imagine how angry I was when the next time my diary was opened, it was Ginny who was writing to me, not you." (UK CoS p.230)
Since the very first time I read Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, I thought the diary had the power to attract people to it, to make them obsessive to write something in its pages, to keep the dairy with them, to prevent people to drop it like Ginny did. I was beginning to think I was imagining things, but I still wonder ...
After Ginny get the diary back, she write to Riddle, even if she knew she was the one who get the monster out of the chamber because of it. And she didn't put the diary aside, refusing to write in it again, but threw it in a bathroom where no one goes. Threw it, not hidden it carefully somewhere in the bathroom where no one will find it for the next 300 years, throw it in one of the cubicle and ran away before Myrtle even saw her. It sounds like she was trying to freed herself from the book full of dark magic and had to put all her will in that single throw.
And not only did she wrote again after she got it back she told it about how she felt when she discovered Harry got it and could have learn her dirty secret. But she threw the diary because it was making her do things, why write in again? Why write that much?
So Harry, like Ginny, was attracted by the diary, not as far as Ginny was. Maybe the more you write, the stronger is the need to write or maybe it take the same abilities to overthrow the diary and the Imperius Curse. I'm shivering ...
What do you think?
Edit : I mean, Harry "kept adsent-mindedly picking it up and turning the pages, as though it was a story he wanted to finish", even if T. M. Riddle did sound familiar why was he compulsively opening it and turn the pages? He don't do this with other books.
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zelmia - Mar 12, 2004 2:37 pm (#63 of 183)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
VERY good points, Tomoe. I think you're on to something there.
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MrsGump - Mar 13, 2004 7:43 pm (#64 of 183)
Tomoe, very good explaination. Ginny could've thrown the diary into the fire and been done with it for good, but she didn't.
I always wondered , when she got it back, knowing it was dangerous, why she'd write in it again. And it would definatly be a Voldemort thing to enchant it to make someone want to use it and not destroy it.
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Tomoé - Mar 15, 2004 2:07 pm (#65 of 183)
Back in business
I was mulling over the diary this week-end, the victims, who were they?
Ernie went on, ‘Remember what was written on the wall? Enemies of the heir Beware. Potter had some sort of run-in with Filch. Next thing we know, Filch’s cat’s attacked. That first year, Creevy, was annoying Potter at the Quidditch match, taking pictures of him while he was lying in the mud. Next thing we know, Creevey’s been attacked.’ (UK CoS p.148)
To continue on Ernie's way of thinking, Justin Finch-Fletchley is imply in a situation where he makes Harry look like the heir of Slytherin. Next thing we know, Justin's been attacked. The only case that doesn't follow the pattern is Hermione and Peneloppe, but we know Harry wasn't the one who open the chamber, it was Ginny. What if Ginny told Tom Riddle about Filch and Tom promised to care of him for her. What if she told him about Colin and Tom said he will take care of him too. Then Justin and finally Hermione who was always the number 1 rival for anyone who wants Harry?
What if Ginny wished Filch, Colin, Justin and Hermione to be out of the picture and Tom got them petrified and assured Ginny that was for the best and that she was a step closer to Harry on each of those times.
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Dr Filibuster - Mar 15, 2004 3:14 pm (#66 of 183)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
That's an interesting angle Tomoe.
It just feels like something a Dark Wizard would do, ie consider doing "favours" for somebody not by empowering them, but by destroying their foes/love rivals/people who annoy them slightly. The victims also matched Voldemort's ideal targets...convenient hey?
When did Ginny and Hermione become friends? Was it after Hermione recovered? If so, did Ginny start the friendship because she felt responsible for the attack?
Perhaps this post should be moved to the Ginny or Hermione thread?
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Tomoé - Mar 17, 2004 9:36 am (#67 of 183)
Back in business
Doc : The victims also matched Voldemort's ideal targets... convenient hey?
Tom could have twisted the fact a little bit, in Justin case, Malfoy would have been the one to slay, but he was pure blood, so why not take Justin who was hiding because he was muggle-born. The same could be said of Filch as well, why take the cat, why not the man? because the man was squib, but pureblood nevertheless. Colin and Hermione were muggle-born, so he could strike them directly. For Peneloppe, I'm not sure if she petrified by mistake or if the snake take her on purpose.
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Czarina - Mar 17, 2004 3:47 pm (#68 of 183)
Hermione recruited Penelope to let her into the library and then use her mirror to look around corners. (I presume that since Penny had to give Hermione permission to be in the library, she would have to stay with her.) So if the basilisk was INTENDING to kill Hermione, getting Penelope too was a mistake. Which begs the question: where does it say in the book that Penelope was a mudblood? Is that only an assumption, circumstantial evidence? (She was attacked by the basilisk, so she must be a Muggleborn. Not if she was WITH Hermione.) Sir Nicholas was attacked too and saved Justin; but if JUSTIN was the intended target, then Sir Nick just got in the way. Neither of the two would be necessarily Muggleborns. Sorry to venture off-topic.
I like the theory that Riddle was feeding off of Ginny's insecurities. She might not have said "Kill that annoying Colin." but she might have written "...that annoying Colin..." which gave Riddle something to work with. Question -- how would RIDDLE know that Colin, Justin, and Hermione are Muggleborns? I doubt Ginny would have written it in the diary. Eleven-year-olds tend not to think that's very important.
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Madame Librarian - Mar 17, 2004 9:29 pm (#69 of 183)
Good question, Czarina. Is it the basilisk who senses the Muggle elements in one's blood, or did Tom have to order the attack on specific students? If it's the basilisk acting on its own, then that implies that when Salazar Slytherin built the chamber and created the basilisk, he "programmed" (for lack of a better word) the snake to sniff out and kill muggleborns and halfbloods. The only thing Tom had to do was find and open the chamber.
Ciao. Barb
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Little Ginny - Mar 20, 2004 6:57 am (#70 of 183)
Maybe Ginny just let slip that the later targets were muggleborns, like "Oh, I am astonished about how fast Hermione learnt about the magic world, she's hasn't even seen a wand till she was eleven" or "this morning, Colin bored me with a story about how he found out he was magic, and that he never knew he could do magic until he got the letter from Hogwarts..." Tom just had to memorize the names and make a list of possible victims.
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MrsGump - Mar 20, 2004 8:04 am (#71 of 183)
Tom could have asked Ginny, too. The diary is/was a very powerful piece of magic-work. It had enough of a hold on Ginny that she didn't destroy it when she wanted to be rid of it, I don't see why she wouldn't anser if Tom said "Hey, what about that Creevy kid? He sure is odd for a pure blood, who are his parents, anyways?" and she'd tell.
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Star Crossed - Mar 20, 2004 6:25 pm (#72 of 183)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Both make sense, but I'm leaning with Madame Librarian. I don't think Salazar would have to tell the basilisk (Would he tell?) who to go after. I think it can sense the less-than-one-hundred-percent-pure-bloodiness.
To go off on a tajent, and to sort of get back on topic, I think the reason Harry gets a feeling of a half-forgotten friend is because of Tom Riddle and the diary. It's kind of hard to explain, but when you see someone, you get a feeling. If you can or cannot trust them. And if you can trust them, there are some people you feel like you've known forever. I think the diary is suppose to give off a feeling of friendliness and trust. After all, Tom is supposed to be this person we all trust (At the beginning, of course), and the diary gives off that aura of trustworthiness.
Yeah, just ignore this post.
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Choices - Mar 21, 2004 9:50 am (#73 of 183)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I sort of thought that the basilisk acted on it's own when Tom wasn't around, but took orders from Tom when Tom was present. I tend to believe that it was programmed to seek out and kill the students with mixed blood in Tom's absence, but when Tom returned he took control of it again.
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Madame Librarian - Mar 21, 2004 10:11 am (#74 of 183)
Yes, Choices, a nice way to look at it. It is a Dark creature for sure, and very ominous whether it acts alone or on orders. Kind of reminds me of how the dementors take orders...sort of.
It's definitely not the kind of magical creature Hagrid would be inclined to take care of.
Ciao. Barb
EDIT--Just had a thought (strange for a lazy Sunday, isn't it?). Back when real-Tom was at Hogwarts and the actual perpetrator of the release of the basilisk, why didn't the snake attack him? If as I and others proposed above that Salazar Slytherin had "programmed" the thing to attack Muggles and Muggleborns, why was real-Tom not vulnerable? Just because he's an ancestor/descendent of Slytherin? Because he has powerful magic that can control the snake? This is very odd to work out, I think. Any ideas?
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Choices - Mar 21, 2004 10:24 am (#75 of 183)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Perhaps it had something to do with him being a Parseltongue - the basilisk could understand him and therefore didn't attack him. But, Harry is a Parseltongue and it tried to kill him in the chamber (on Tom's orders). Good question Madame!
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Madame Librarian - Mar 21, 2004 10:33 am (#76 of 183)
Choices, good thinking. Somehow I think there's more to it, though. This is one of those "little" issues that my never get answered.
Ciao. Barb
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zelmia - Mar 22, 2004 3:51 pm (#77 of 183)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
We also have to remember that it was the people at Hogwarts (both Students and Faculty) who assumed that the Basilisk was attacking Muggle-borns. True, most of the victims were apparently Muggle-born, an idea that was deliberately introduced into the plot. But, as with the case of Penny Clearwater, whom we don't know for certain was Muggle-born, these may have simply been a coincidence.
A "real" basilisk, just like the HP basilisk, kills with "its murderous stare" and not its venom. Therefore, it was simply a matter of who happened to be walking by at the precise moment the Basilisk was there. Not even Tom Riddle, as clever and cunning as he obviously was, could have controlled that.
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Czarina - Mar 22, 2004 8:15 pm (#78 of 183)
So how did Tom (and Ginny) avoid staring at the basilisk? Wouldn't it want to see who was talking to it?
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Chris. - Mar 23, 2004 3:16 am (#79 of 183)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Zelmia, I thought they were assuming that it wasn't attacking Slytherins. But that may lead on to the Muggle-born issue.
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Choices - Mar 23, 2004 12:07 pm (#80 of 183)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I don't remember for sure, but I didn't think Ginny ever saw the basilisk. She wrote in the diary and did the things that Tom directed her to do. She opened the Chamber of Secrets on his command and entered, but Tom had not called forth the basilisk when she got down there - he only called the basilisk when Harry arrived and Ginny was passed out, so she didn't "look" at the basilisk.
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Chris. - Mar 23, 2004 12:11 pm (#81 of 183)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
I thought when Ginny set loose the Basilisk on the victims, she was in a mental state that caused her to blank everything out. So she couldn't see the attacks or the snake.
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Czarina - Mar 23, 2004 12:30 pm (#82 of 183)
Yes, I think Ginny would have been unable to see the basilisk. She was in a trance. Likewise, if you closed your eyes, the basilisk's stare wouldn't affect you, I think. I'm not sure on that.
But Tom would have been able to see the basilisk -- I hightly doubt he was in a trance himself, although that possibility can't be entirely ruled out. What was to prevent the basilisk from looking at him? I suppose he was smart and closed his eyes (or looked away) because he knew what was coming? How would he have avoided eventually staring at it?
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Chris. - Mar 23, 2004 12:48 pm (#83 of 183)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Do we mean the Tom in his school days or the spirit of him in the CoS events?
I think the Heirs of Slytherin are invulnerable to the Snake's glare.
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Tomoé - Mar 23, 2004 2:03 pm (#84 of 183)
Back in business
Maybe the killing stare is not always "on", maybe the basilisk have to want to kill for the stare to work. Newt Scamander, in FB, wrote "anyone looking directly into [the basilisk eyes] will suffer instant death" and "there have been no recorded sighting of basilisks in Britain for at least four hundred years", how Newt or any other modern writer could have any concrete information about basilisk. Herpo the Foul's Basilisk is known to have lived 900 years, but there's no records that Herpo has been killed by the snake. Maybe basilisks don't kill snake and consider parselmouth as good as any snake. Or maybe any creature who can understand and talk parceltongue is immune to the basilisk stare.
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I Am Used Vlad - Mar 23, 2004 7:19 pm (#85 of 183)
I Am Almighty!
Tom can talk to the basilisk, so all he would have to do is tell it not to look directly at him.
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Choices - Mar 23, 2004 7:22 pm (#86 of 183)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
But Harry spoke parseltongue and he evidently wasn't immune to it's stare. Fawkes blinded the basilisk so it wouldn't "look" at Harry when he was fighting it.
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Tomoé - Mar 23, 2004 7:33 pm (#87 of 183)
Back in business
How do we know Harry wasn't immune? We know Hermione, Justin, Peneloppe, Colin and Mrs Noris were not immune, but as long as Harry didn't look into the eyes of the Basilisk, we just don't know.
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I Am Used Vlad - Mar 23, 2004 8:19 pm (#88 of 183)
I Am Almighty!
Choices, the difference is that Riddle is the Heir of Slytherin, and the basilisk followed his orders. I didn't mean he was immune to its stare, just that it wouldn't look at him if he told it not to.
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HP Fan - Mar 29, 2004 12:44 pm (#89 of 183)
Have only just seen this thread and I'm sorry if what I am about to put forward is repeating anything that has already been said. Since I have heard about the connection between Harry and Voldemort I have wondered whether the line
"And while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and had half-forgotten...."
was a clue from JKR. As they have a connection and Voldemort transferred some of his powers to Harry when the curse failed - it could be that the name has some meaning because of this connection - but Harry doesn't know where its from.
I think I have to agree with Nimrod2000 - I think Riddle would have ordered the Basilisk not to look at him. Just to kill the person he wants it to. Remember he tells the basilisk to kill Harry when it comes out of the statue before it is blinded.
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popkin - Apr 12, 2004 10:41 pm (#90 of 183)
mother
I haven't reread that passage lately, but I don't think Harry ever tries to talk to the Basilisk. I think he takes Tom Riddle at his word, that Harry will not be able to control the Basilisk with parseltongue. But, for all we know, if Harry had tried to talk to the Basilisk in parseltongue it would have obeyed him as readily as it obeyed Tom.
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Madame Librarian - Apr 13, 2004 8:39 am (#91 of 183)
HP Fan, I started this thread and if you read the opener, you'll see that I was pondering something other than the connection caused by the failed AK curse. I was speculating about a "kindly Mr. Riddle" (LV able to take on his former self for purposes of maneuvering through the WW to further the Evil cause) was a neighbor or acquaintence of the Potters, played with little Harry, something like that. However, as you might have noticed the drift of the thread was that it is most likely the AK connection that's working here. I concede to the wisdom of the majority, but have kept a small file (only 3 or 4 neurons of brain space) tucked away in case it's proved to be more along what I suggested.
Ciao. Barb
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Julia. - Apr 13, 2004 9:26 am (#92 of 183)
74% obsessed! Uconn Jew Crew says: is it August yet?
Do mine eyes decieve me? Popkin, is it really you?
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Tomoé - Apr 13, 2004 10:26 pm (#93 of 183)
Back in business
I agree with you popkin, the basilisk would probably obeyed both Harry and Tom if Harry had tried to order it to do something.
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popkin - Apr 14, 2004 3:42 am (#94 of 183)
mother
Edited by Apr 14, 2004 3:44 am
Hi, Julia. It's nice to be back, but I'm so far behind on reading the posts that I won't be posting much for a while. Thanks, Tomoe. I guess that means I remembered the passage right.
I agree with you ML, that there is more of a connection between Harry and Tom Riddle than the powers transfered through the curse and the wand cores. I think it's going to turn out to be a central mystery of the series - why Harry and Tom look so much alike, have the same wand cores, and have many of the same abilities. Maybe it has something to do with them both being heirs of Slytherin...... I also suspect that Olivander (and Dumbledore) knows more than he's telling about their connection - maybe he knows Cassandra's prophecy fortelling of their future conflict and its resolution. Whatever the connection is between them, I think the "long forgotten friend" comment is a big clue to the mystery.
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VeronikaG - Apr 15, 2004 1:56 am (#95 of 183)
Hmmm..? Cassandra's prophecy? Do you mean Trelawney's?
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popkin - Apr 15, 2004 2:54 am (#96 of 183)
mother
I mean Cassandra Trelawney, Sybyll's great grandmother. She's supposed to have been a great and prolific seer. I figure she must have had some prophecies about Harry and Tom. There isn't any specific evidence for this, but I expect it to be true anyway.
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VeronikaG - Apr 15, 2004 3:42 am (#97 of 183)
Oh, I forgot about her. Sorry.
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popkin - May 7, 2004 2:19 am (#98 of 183)
mother
Edited by May 7, 2004 2:22 am
Today, I came across the passage that got this thread started:
Harry couldn't explain, even to himself, why he didn't just throw Riddle's diary away. The fact was that even though he knew the diary was blank, he kept absentmindedly picking it up and turning the pages, as though it were a story he wanted to finish. And while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and had half-forgotten. But this was absurd. He'd never had friends before Hogwarts, Dudley had made sure of that. CoS, ch. 13, pg. 233-234 (US, paperback).
Harry feels that he knows the person Tom Riddle, not the name, and probably not from his Privet Drive days. I thought that this passage is almost certainly tied together with the "stand aside, silly girl" comment and the comment that Harry's mother needn't have died.
In CoS, Tom mentions that he befriended Ginny so as to use her, and it is implied that he did the same with Hagrid. It is possible that Tom tried to charm his way into Lily and James' lives so as to get to Harry. But I think that the fact that LV tried to spare Lily's life implies something deeper.
"To Business, Harry," said Riddle, still smiling broadly. "Twice -- in your past, in my future -- we have met. And twice I failed to kill you...." CoS, Ch. 17, Pg. 316 (US, paperback).
This passage confirms that Tom and Harry met on at least one other occasion besides the day baby harry defeated LV.
I'm too tired to think anymore. That's good, because I need to sleep. Maybe you guys can draw the more difficult conclusions from here.
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Star Crossed - May 7, 2004 3:40 am (#99 of 183)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
No, I think he means Halloween '81, and then their meeting at the end of SS.
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mike miller - May 7, 2004 5:01 am (#100 of 183)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
I think you've got it right Aly (Star Crossed) in terms of Tom's reference to "twice in your past, in my future.." comment.
Popkin - As far as Harry's feeling of somehow knowing Riddle, I think that's a carry over from the AK when Harry was one. I don't think Voldemort tried to befriend Lily and James. The lines were already drawn by that point. Riddle had successfully transformed himself into Voldemort and probably didn't even resemble Riddle.
I have one thought that's been kicking around in my head; is it possible that in the final showdown Harry will do something to transform Voldemort back into Tom Riddle and in this way defeat Voldemort? Once back as Tom Riddle, maybe there's some way for Riddle to redeem himself (a second chance for Tom). I started think about this during the battle in the MoM when DD only refers to Voldemort as "Tom". I'm almost surprised that being called Tom didn't infuriate Voldemort. He has gone through so much effort to change into Voldemort and away from Riddle who actually embodies everything Voldemort hates.
Little Ginny, your point #2 about Harry knowing someone named Riddle but not necessarily Riddle/Voldie is brilliant!! Wow. It really just popped as the kind of thing JKR would do. The name stamped on the cover of the diary was T. M. Riddle, not Tom Riddle. Again, wow.
OK, so who could it be? Old Mr. Riddle and Mr. Riddle's parents were murdered by Voldie 50 years ago (1944), so that's not who it could be. It's not Voldie's mom, she died shortly after giving birth, or so we're told, by young Tom himself. Is he telling the truth? All kinds of possibilities open up if somehow she's still alive. Was there a sibling or cousin and their offspring? Another possibility for someone to be in Harry's world.
These are the ones I can imagine working out (in an elegant JKR sort of way). Does anyone else see the potential in Little Ginny's suggestion?
Ciao. Barb
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Czarina - Feb 29, 2004 4:07 pm (#52 of 183)
A lot of potential, actually. Still, I hold with the belief that it was the transferred powers in Harry that recognised the name "T.M. Riddle."
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Choices - Mar 2, 2004 10:50 am (#53 of 183)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Still, I hold with the belief that it was the transferred powers in Harry that recognised the name "T.M. Riddle."
This sounds like a logical explanation to me, too.
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zelmia - Mar 10, 2004 1:58 pm (#54 of 183)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Harry and Ron are supposed to meet Draco Malfoy in the Trophy Room for The Midnight Duel in PS/SS. True, they didn't really spend any time there, but Harry could have caught a glimpse of Riddle's plaque.
Also, I did mean that Ron had seen the name because of repeatedly polishing said plaque (sorry my poor typing caused confusion over my point). He says that the name sounds familiar. So naturally Harry thinks the name is familiar - or should be - to himself as well.
Remember he had a similar feeling when the Trio were trying to figure out who Nicolas Flammel was. He had read the name somewhere, it was familiar to him, but he couldn't remember where or why. I think the apparent familiarity of the name "T M Riddle" is pretty much the same situation as Nicolas Flammel.
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Mattew Bates - Mar 10, 2004 7:29 pm (#55 of 183)
“Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars.” Kahlil Gibran
I think it's much more plausible that the disembodied Voldemist spent many a night dwelling on his past, wallowing in his disembodied predicament. Asleep or awake, Harry's connection to him would allow Voldie's dwellings to creep into his subconscious. Because Harry has no friends, that kind of unconscious familiarity with anyone could be mistaken for "friendly."
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Madame Librarian - Mar 10, 2004 9:11 pm (#56 of 183)
Harry has no friends? Mattew, could you please elaborate on this a bit because I don't understand how you've come to that conclusion? I know Harry had a miserable social life before he came to Hogwarts, but by the time he's contemplating the diary in CoS, Harry is close to Ron and Hermione, liked by his Quidditch teammates, and he's aware that the Weasleys and Hagrid care about him very much as do DD and McGonagall.
Ciao. Barb
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Mattew Bates - Mar 11, 2004 1:41 pm (#57 of 183)
“Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars.” Kahlil Gibran
My apologies, Barb. Allow me to clarify my point. Up until he went to Hogwarts, Harry had no friends. (A poor choice of verb tense on my part.) My point was that the disembodied Voldemort had roughly ten years of time to dwell on his past, possibly filtering that subconsciously (and probably unknowingly) through his and Harry's connection before Harry had a friend. Harry thinks he remembers T.M. Riddle as a childhood friend, but he had no childhood friends, so he has no context to compare that to - just a vague sense of familiarity.
Also, I doubt Tom Riddle had much (socially) to do with the Potters during the first fifteen months of Harry's life - otherwise, Harry would likely have felt the same vague sense of connection from reading Remus' name on his luggage on the train ride in for year three. It may be possible that T.M. Riddle was baby-sitting Harry more often than Uncle Moony, but I doubt it very highly
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scully jones - Mar 11, 2004 2:15 pm (#58 of 183)
yeah right
Zelmia, The reason the "familiarity" with the name T.M. Riddle is more important than his "familiarity" with the name Nicolas Flamel is this:
Nicolas Flamel is just a familiar sounding name.
T.M. Riddle seems like an old friend.
I don't think just seeing his name somewhere would give Harry that feeling inside.
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Chris. - Mar 11, 2004 3:04 pm (#59 of 183)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
I have read through this thread, and thought about the different ideas. However, I think some of Voldemort's knowledge was given to Harry too, when he gave him the scar.
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Little Ginny - Mar 12, 2004 6:47 am (#60 of 183)
If Harry had lots of contact with lupin as a baby, and therefore subconsciously remembered him, he would feel he read a long-forgotten-friend's name if he read "Remus" or "Moony", because this would be how his parents called Lupin, the name baby Harry heard, but Harry wouldn't remmber the name "R.J. Lupin", because it's very unlikely Remus was ever called this among his friends.
Therefore, I think it is possible that it was the surename "Riddle" that caught Harry's attention, and that might indicate that whatever Riddle baby Harry knew, it was the surename he heard from him.
Also I don't think that if Voldie's spirit dwelled in thoughts about his past, he would remember the "Riddle"-part of his name with very friendly feelings. In CoS Tom says that he always hated his name, so young Tom would probably thought of himself only as "Tom" or maybe as "Tom Marvolo", until he created his new name.
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Madame Librarian - Mar 12, 2004 7:02 am (#61 of 183)
Agreed, Little Ginny. I may be wrong, but just the way JKR has phrased and staged that little scene makes me think that there's something stronger that a planted memory (from the scar/attack incident). I had a sense that Harry was experiencing something akin to what we would feel if we heard a snippet of melody or saw a picture from book we read in childhood (or that Proustian thing--the smell of baking cookies) that produces an almost physical recall of a real thing from your past. You are almost transported back to that time for a second or two.
I also think that since the CoS plotline was a self-contained one, i.e., it has its own beginning-middle-end resolution that doesn't really carry over to the next book since Voldie isn't really in this one (I know, I know, don't all jump on me at once. There are tons of clues and hints about characters and how the WW works, but that's not what I mean here), JKR would have said something to wrap up this little phrase at the end when Harry is confronting Tom Riddle.
We already know about the mechanism of something transferred from Voldie to Harry through the attack, so it would have been quite natural for JKR to add a line or two like, "Harry was suddenly knew that the Tom Riddle standing before him had never been a friend from long ago. As he felt his scar throbbing, he knew the memory was a false one that came from the strange and terrifying powers he gained when he became The Boy Who Lived. No, Tom was never a friend, never."
Ciao. Barb
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Tomoé - Mar 12, 2004 8:41 am (#62 of 183)
Back in business
"Harry couldn't explain, even to himself, why he didn't just throw Riddle's diary away. The fact was that even though he knew the diary was blank, he kept adsent-mindedly picking it up and turning the pages, as though it was a story he wanted to finish. And while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was small, and half-forgotten." (UK CoS p.174, italic JKR)
"Imagine how angry I was when the next time my diary was opened, it was Ginny who was writing to me, not you." (UK CoS p.230)
Since the very first time I read Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, I thought the diary had the power to attract people to it, to make them obsessive to write something in its pages, to keep the dairy with them, to prevent people to drop it like Ginny did. I was beginning to think I was imagining things, but I still wonder ...
After Ginny get the diary back, she write to Riddle, even if she knew she was the one who get the monster out of the chamber because of it. And she didn't put the diary aside, refusing to write in it again, but threw it in a bathroom where no one goes. Threw it, not hidden it carefully somewhere in the bathroom where no one will find it for the next 300 years, throw it in one of the cubicle and ran away before Myrtle even saw her. It sounds like she was trying to freed herself from the book full of dark magic and had to put all her will in that single throw.
And not only did she wrote again after she got it back she told it about how she felt when she discovered Harry got it and could have learn her dirty secret. But she threw the diary because it was making her do things, why write in again? Why write that much?
So Harry, like Ginny, was attracted by the diary, not as far as Ginny was. Maybe the more you write, the stronger is the need to write or maybe it take the same abilities to overthrow the diary and the Imperius Curse. I'm shivering ...
What do you think?
Edit : I mean, Harry "kept adsent-mindedly picking it up and turning the pages, as though it was a story he wanted to finish", even if T. M. Riddle did sound familiar why was he compulsively opening it and turn the pages? He don't do this with other books.
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zelmia - Mar 12, 2004 2:37 pm (#63 of 183)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
VERY good points, Tomoe. I think you're on to something there.
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MrsGump - Mar 13, 2004 7:43 pm (#64 of 183)
Tomoe, very good explaination. Ginny could've thrown the diary into the fire and been done with it for good, but she didn't.
I always wondered , when she got it back, knowing it was dangerous, why she'd write in it again. And it would definatly be a Voldemort thing to enchant it to make someone want to use it and not destroy it.
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Tomoé - Mar 15, 2004 2:07 pm (#65 of 183)
Back in business
I was mulling over the diary this week-end, the victims, who were they?
Ernie went on, ‘Remember what was written on the wall? Enemies of the heir Beware. Potter had some sort of run-in with Filch. Next thing we know, Filch’s cat’s attacked. That first year, Creevy, was annoying Potter at the Quidditch match, taking pictures of him while he was lying in the mud. Next thing we know, Creevey’s been attacked.’ (UK CoS p.148)
To continue on Ernie's way of thinking, Justin Finch-Fletchley is imply in a situation where he makes Harry look like the heir of Slytherin. Next thing we know, Justin's been attacked. The only case that doesn't follow the pattern is Hermione and Peneloppe, but we know Harry wasn't the one who open the chamber, it was Ginny. What if Ginny told Tom Riddle about Filch and Tom promised to care of him for her. What if she told him about Colin and Tom said he will take care of him too. Then Justin and finally Hermione who was always the number 1 rival for anyone who wants Harry?
What if Ginny wished Filch, Colin, Justin and Hermione to be out of the picture and Tom got them petrified and assured Ginny that was for the best and that she was a step closer to Harry on each of those times.
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Dr Filibuster - Mar 15, 2004 3:14 pm (#66 of 183)
Sue, from Northwich, England.
That's an interesting angle Tomoe.
It just feels like something a Dark Wizard would do, ie consider doing "favours" for somebody not by empowering them, but by destroying their foes/love rivals/people who annoy them slightly. The victims also matched Voldemort's ideal targets...convenient hey?
When did Ginny and Hermione become friends? Was it after Hermione recovered? If so, did Ginny start the friendship because she felt responsible for the attack?
Perhaps this post should be moved to the Ginny or Hermione thread?
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Tomoé - Mar 17, 2004 9:36 am (#67 of 183)
Back in business
Doc : The victims also matched Voldemort's ideal targets... convenient hey?
Tom could have twisted the fact a little bit, in Justin case, Malfoy would have been the one to slay, but he was pure blood, so why not take Justin who was hiding because he was muggle-born. The same could be said of Filch as well, why take the cat, why not the man? because the man was squib, but pureblood nevertheless. Colin and Hermione were muggle-born, so he could strike them directly. For Peneloppe, I'm not sure if she petrified by mistake or if the snake take her on purpose.
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Czarina - Mar 17, 2004 3:47 pm (#68 of 183)
Hermione recruited Penelope to let her into the library and then use her mirror to look around corners. (I presume that since Penny had to give Hermione permission to be in the library, she would have to stay with her.) So if the basilisk was INTENDING to kill Hermione, getting Penelope too was a mistake. Which begs the question: where does it say in the book that Penelope was a mudblood? Is that only an assumption, circumstantial evidence? (She was attacked by the basilisk, so she must be a Muggleborn. Not if she was WITH Hermione.) Sir Nicholas was attacked too and saved Justin; but if JUSTIN was the intended target, then Sir Nick just got in the way. Neither of the two would be necessarily Muggleborns. Sorry to venture off-topic.
I like the theory that Riddle was feeding off of Ginny's insecurities. She might not have said "Kill that annoying Colin." but she might have written "...that annoying Colin..." which gave Riddle something to work with. Question -- how would RIDDLE know that Colin, Justin, and Hermione are Muggleborns? I doubt Ginny would have written it in the diary. Eleven-year-olds tend not to think that's very important.
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Madame Librarian - Mar 17, 2004 9:29 pm (#69 of 183)
Good question, Czarina. Is it the basilisk who senses the Muggle elements in one's blood, or did Tom have to order the attack on specific students? If it's the basilisk acting on its own, then that implies that when Salazar Slytherin built the chamber and created the basilisk, he "programmed" (for lack of a better word) the snake to sniff out and kill muggleborns and halfbloods. The only thing Tom had to do was find and open the chamber.
Ciao. Barb
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Little Ginny - Mar 20, 2004 6:57 am (#70 of 183)
Maybe Ginny just let slip that the later targets were muggleborns, like "Oh, I am astonished about how fast Hermione learnt about the magic world, she's hasn't even seen a wand till she was eleven" or "this morning, Colin bored me with a story about how he found out he was magic, and that he never knew he could do magic until he got the letter from Hogwarts..." Tom just had to memorize the names and make a list of possible victims.
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MrsGump - Mar 20, 2004 8:04 am (#71 of 183)
Tom could have asked Ginny, too. The diary is/was a very powerful piece of magic-work. It had enough of a hold on Ginny that she didn't destroy it when she wanted to be rid of it, I don't see why she wouldn't anser if Tom said "Hey, what about that Creevy kid? He sure is odd for a pure blood, who are his parents, anyways?" and she'd tell.
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Star Crossed - Mar 20, 2004 6:25 pm (#72 of 183)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Both make sense, but I'm leaning with Madame Librarian. I don't think Salazar would have to tell the basilisk (Would he tell?) who to go after. I think it can sense the less-than-one-hundred-percent-pure-bloodiness.
To go off on a tajent, and to sort of get back on topic, I think the reason Harry gets a feeling of a half-forgotten friend is because of Tom Riddle and the diary. It's kind of hard to explain, but when you see someone, you get a feeling. If you can or cannot trust them. And if you can trust them, there are some people you feel like you've known forever. I think the diary is suppose to give off a feeling of friendliness and trust. After all, Tom is supposed to be this person we all trust (At the beginning, of course), and the diary gives off that aura of trustworthiness.
Yeah, just ignore this post.
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Choices - Mar 21, 2004 9:50 am (#73 of 183)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I sort of thought that the basilisk acted on it's own when Tom wasn't around, but took orders from Tom when Tom was present. I tend to believe that it was programmed to seek out and kill the students with mixed blood in Tom's absence, but when Tom returned he took control of it again.
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Madame Librarian - Mar 21, 2004 10:11 am (#74 of 183)
Yes, Choices, a nice way to look at it. It is a Dark creature for sure, and very ominous whether it acts alone or on orders. Kind of reminds me of how the dementors take orders...sort of.
It's definitely not the kind of magical creature Hagrid would be inclined to take care of.
Ciao. Barb
EDIT--Just had a thought (strange for a lazy Sunday, isn't it?). Back when real-Tom was at Hogwarts and the actual perpetrator of the release of the basilisk, why didn't the snake attack him? If as I and others proposed above that Salazar Slytherin had "programmed" the thing to attack Muggles and Muggleborns, why was real-Tom not vulnerable? Just because he's an ancestor/descendent of Slytherin? Because he has powerful magic that can control the snake? This is very odd to work out, I think. Any ideas?
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Choices - Mar 21, 2004 10:24 am (#75 of 183)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
Perhaps it had something to do with him being a Parseltongue - the basilisk could understand him and therefore didn't attack him. But, Harry is a Parseltongue and it tried to kill him in the chamber (on Tom's orders). Good question Madame!
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Madame Librarian - Mar 21, 2004 10:33 am (#76 of 183)
Choices, good thinking. Somehow I think there's more to it, though. This is one of those "little" issues that my never get answered.
Ciao. Barb
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zelmia - Mar 22, 2004 3:51 pm (#77 of 183)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
We also have to remember that it was the people at Hogwarts (both Students and Faculty) who assumed that the Basilisk was attacking Muggle-borns. True, most of the victims were apparently Muggle-born, an idea that was deliberately introduced into the plot. But, as with the case of Penny Clearwater, whom we don't know for certain was Muggle-born, these may have simply been a coincidence.
A "real" basilisk, just like the HP basilisk, kills with "its murderous stare" and not its venom. Therefore, it was simply a matter of who happened to be walking by at the precise moment the Basilisk was there. Not even Tom Riddle, as clever and cunning as he obviously was, could have controlled that.
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Czarina - Mar 22, 2004 8:15 pm (#78 of 183)
So how did Tom (and Ginny) avoid staring at the basilisk? Wouldn't it want to see who was talking to it?
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Chris. - Mar 23, 2004 3:16 am (#79 of 183)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Zelmia, I thought they were assuming that it wasn't attacking Slytherins. But that may lead on to the Muggle-born issue.
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Choices - Mar 23, 2004 12:07 pm (#80 of 183)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
I don't remember for sure, but I didn't think Ginny ever saw the basilisk. She wrote in the diary and did the things that Tom directed her to do. She opened the Chamber of Secrets on his command and entered, but Tom had not called forth the basilisk when she got down there - he only called the basilisk when Harry arrived and Ginny was passed out, so she didn't "look" at the basilisk.
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Chris. - Mar 23, 2004 12:11 pm (#81 of 183)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
I thought when Ginny set loose the Basilisk on the victims, she was in a mental state that caused her to blank everything out. So she couldn't see the attacks or the snake.
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Czarina - Mar 23, 2004 12:30 pm (#82 of 183)
Yes, I think Ginny would have been unable to see the basilisk. She was in a trance. Likewise, if you closed your eyes, the basilisk's stare wouldn't affect you, I think. I'm not sure on that.
But Tom would have been able to see the basilisk -- I hightly doubt he was in a trance himself, although that possibility can't be entirely ruled out. What was to prevent the basilisk from looking at him? I suppose he was smart and closed his eyes (or looked away) because he knew what was coming? How would he have avoided eventually staring at it?
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Chris. - Mar 23, 2004 12:48 pm (#83 of 183)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Do we mean the Tom in his school days or the spirit of him in the CoS events?
I think the Heirs of Slytherin are invulnerable to the Snake's glare.
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Tomoé - Mar 23, 2004 2:03 pm (#84 of 183)
Back in business
Maybe the killing stare is not always "on", maybe the basilisk have to want to kill for the stare to work. Newt Scamander, in FB, wrote "anyone looking directly into [the basilisk eyes] will suffer instant death" and "there have been no recorded sighting of basilisks in Britain for at least four hundred years", how Newt or any other modern writer could have any concrete information about basilisk. Herpo the Foul's Basilisk is known to have lived 900 years, but there's no records that Herpo has been killed by the snake. Maybe basilisks don't kill snake and consider parselmouth as good as any snake. Or maybe any creature who can understand and talk parceltongue is immune to the basilisk stare.
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I Am Used Vlad - Mar 23, 2004 7:19 pm (#85 of 183)
I Am Almighty!
Tom can talk to the basilisk, so all he would have to do is tell it not to look directly at him.
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Choices - Mar 23, 2004 7:22 pm (#86 of 183)
*Completely Obsessed With Harry Potter*
But Harry spoke parseltongue and he evidently wasn't immune to it's stare. Fawkes blinded the basilisk so it wouldn't "look" at Harry when he was fighting it.
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Tomoé - Mar 23, 2004 7:33 pm (#87 of 183)
Back in business
How do we know Harry wasn't immune? We know Hermione, Justin, Peneloppe, Colin and Mrs Noris were not immune, but as long as Harry didn't look into the eyes of the Basilisk, we just don't know.
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I Am Used Vlad - Mar 23, 2004 8:19 pm (#88 of 183)
I Am Almighty!
Choices, the difference is that Riddle is the Heir of Slytherin, and the basilisk followed his orders. I didn't mean he was immune to its stare, just that it wouldn't look at him if he told it not to.
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HP Fan - Mar 29, 2004 12:44 pm (#89 of 183)
Have only just seen this thread and I'm sorry if what I am about to put forward is repeating anything that has already been said. Since I have heard about the connection between Harry and Voldemort I have wondered whether the line
"And while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and had half-forgotten...."
was a clue from JKR. As they have a connection and Voldemort transferred some of his powers to Harry when the curse failed - it could be that the name has some meaning because of this connection - but Harry doesn't know where its from.
I think I have to agree with Nimrod2000 - I think Riddle would have ordered the Basilisk not to look at him. Just to kill the person he wants it to. Remember he tells the basilisk to kill Harry when it comes out of the statue before it is blinded.
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popkin - Apr 12, 2004 10:41 pm (#90 of 183)
mother
I haven't reread that passage lately, but I don't think Harry ever tries to talk to the Basilisk. I think he takes Tom Riddle at his word, that Harry will not be able to control the Basilisk with parseltongue. But, for all we know, if Harry had tried to talk to the Basilisk in parseltongue it would have obeyed him as readily as it obeyed Tom.
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Madame Librarian - Apr 13, 2004 8:39 am (#91 of 183)
HP Fan, I started this thread and if you read the opener, you'll see that I was pondering something other than the connection caused by the failed AK curse. I was speculating about a "kindly Mr. Riddle" (LV able to take on his former self for purposes of maneuvering through the WW to further the Evil cause) was a neighbor or acquaintence of the Potters, played with little Harry, something like that. However, as you might have noticed the drift of the thread was that it is most likely the AK connection that's working here. I concede to the wisdom of the majority, but have kept a small file (only 3 or 4 neurons of brain space) tucked away in case it's proved to be more along what I suggested.
Ciao. Barb
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Julia. - Apr 13, 2004 9:26 am (#92 of 183)
74% obsessed! Uconn Jew Crew says: is it August yet?
Do mine eyes decieve me? Popkin, is it really you?
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Tomoé - Apr 13, 2004 10:26 pm (#93 of 183)
Back in business
I agree with you popkin, the basilisk would probably obeyed both Harry and Tom if Harry had tried to order it to do something.
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popkin - Apr 14, 2004 3:42 am (#94 of 183)
mother
Edited by Apr 14, 2004 3:44 am
Hi, Julia. It's nice to be back, but I'm so far behind on reading the posts that I won't be posting much for a while. Thanks, Tomoe. I guess that means I remembered the passage right.
I agree with you ML, that there is more of a connection between Harry and Tom Riddle than the powers transfered through the curse and the wand cores. I think it's going to turn out to be a central mystery of the series - why Harry and Tom look so much alike, have the same wand cores, and have many of the same abilities. Maybe it has something to do with them both being heirs of Slytherin...... I also suspect that Olivander (and Dumbledore) knows more than he's telling about their connection - maybe he knows Cassandra's prophecy fortelling of their future conflict and its resolution. Whatever the connection is between them, I think the "long forgotten friend" comment is a big clue to the mystery.
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VeronikaG - Apr 15, 2004 1:56 am (#95 of 183)
Hmmm..? Cassandra's prophecy? Do you mean Trelawney's?
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popkin - Apr 15, 2004 2:54 am (#96 of 183)
mother
I mean Cassandra Trelawney, Sybyll's great grandmother. She's supposed to have been a great and prolific seer. I figure she must have had some prophecies about Harry and Tom. There isn't any specific evidence for this, but I expect it to be true anyway.
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VeronikaG - Apr 15, 2004 3:42 am (#97 of 183)
Oh, I forgot about her. Sorry.
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popkin - May 7, 2004 2:19 am (#98 of 183)
mother
Edited by May 7, 2004 2:22 am
Today, I came across the passage that got this thread started:
Harry couldn't explain, even to himself, why he didn't just throw Riddle's diary away. The fact was that even though he knew the diary was blank, he kept absentmindedly picking it up and turning the pages, as though it were a story he wanted to finish. And while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and had half-forgotten. But this was absurd. He'd never had friends before Hogwarts, Dudley had made sure of that. CoS, ch. 13, pg. 233-234 (US, paperback).
Harry feels that he knows the person Tom Riddle, not the name, and probably not from his Privet Drive days. I thought that this passage is almost certainly tied together with the "stand aside, silly girl" comment and the comment that Harry's mother needn't have died.
In CoS, Tom mentions that he befriended Ginny so as to use her, and it is implied that he did the same with Hagrid. It is possible that Tom tried to charm his way into Lily and James' lives so as to get to Harry. But I think that the fact that LV tried to spare Lily's life implies something deeper.
"To Business, Harry," said Riddle, still smiling broadly. "Twice -- in your past, in my future -- we have met. And twice I failed to kill you...." CoS, Ch. 17, Pg. 316 (US, paperback).
This passage confirms that Tom and Harry met on at least one other occasion besides the day baby harry defeated LV.
I'm too tired to think anymore. That's good, because I need to sleep. Maybe you guys can draw the more difficult conclusions from here.
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Star Crossed - May 7, 2004 3:40 am (#99 of 183)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
No, I think he means Halloween '81, and then their meeting at the end of SS.
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mike miller - May 7, 2004 5:01 am (#100 of 183)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
I think you've got it right Aly (Star Crossed) in terms of Tom's reference to "twice in your past, in my future.." comment.
Popkin - As far as Harry's feeling of somehow knowing Riddle, I think that's a carry over from the AK when Harry was one. I don't think Voldemort tried to befriend Lily and James. The lines were already drawn by that point. Riddle had successfully transformed himself into Voldemort and probably didn't even resemble Riddle.
I have one thought that's been kicking around in my head; is it possible that in the final showdown Harry will do something to transform Voldemort back into Tom Riddle and in this way defeat Voldemort? Once back as Tom Riddle, maybe there's some way for Riddle to redeem himself (a second chance for Tom). I started think about this during the battle in the MoM when DD only refers to Voldemort as "Tom". I'm almost surprised that being called Tom didn't infuriate Voldemort. He has gone through so much effort to change into Voldemort and away from Riddle who actually embodies everything Voldemort hates.
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T. M. Riddle, a half-forgotten friend (Post 101 to 150)
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Madame Librarian - May 7, 2004 6:14 am (#101 of 183)
Popkin, exactly! That was my thinking and why I started this post. That paragraph seems to contain so many couched clues/hints. I didn't notice, of course, on first reading ages ago, but since being on the Forum, I pay particular attention to Harry's inner monologues where he tries to think things out for himself. The language there is so...so...evocative (best word I can find) of what I feel sometimes when a memory just eludes me but I know it will be a real important one when it finally comes out. I believe Harry's unconscious is struggling here to produce that key memory about Riddle. The only explanation I can imagine (not that there isn't a better one) is the one you mention above--somehow Riddle/Voldie was part of Harry's life when he was a baby. The awful thoughts I have about Lily and James and how they could have been associated with Voldie...well, I'm too chicken to let them fully develop in my own mind because I fear what I'd come up with. I did post some more benign scenarios toward the beginning of this thread when the discussion first took off.
Ciao. Barb
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popkin - May 7, 2004 6:58 am (#102 of 183)
mother
Edited by May 7, 2004 7:03 am
If, as Star Crossed says, "twice" means Halloween '81 and the end of SS/PS, then Harry never met Riddle before he defeated him. Yet, he feels he knows him - and I'm convinced it's not just a throwover from the rebounded AK. I still think there's something there - and from what Harry says, it's not the name "Tom Riddle", but something about finishing the story of Tom Riddle - a story which he has already begun to read (or, knowing JKR, to write).
Maybe there's another dark object, something like the diary, that was in Harry's parents' home. Maybe Harry played with it as a baby and came to know Riddle through it to some extent. Maybe it is associated with Lily's past connection to Riddle - something from her own childhood, passed to her from Great Uncle Marvolo, or something.
Lily is relatively kind to Snape in the vision Harry sees in the pensieve. Maybe she just had a soft spot for villains. Or maybe....she, Snape and Riddle are interconnected (and Mark Evans - can't forget him). I'm going in circles. I love this theory, but can't get anywhere with it. I hope book six will be done soon. I have a feeling I've begun reading a book with blank pages, and I'd like to finish it.
You know, Barb, diary Tom would only know about future events that Ginny, Harry (or possibly Lucius) had told him about. If none of those people know about an association between Tom and Lily, or of a meeting between pre-snakeface LV and baby Harry, diary Tom would not know about it either. I'm still holding out for a face to face meeting between Tom Riddle, Lily and Harry.
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Little Ginny - May 7, 2004 10:13 am (#103 of 183)
Popkin, the same lines interested me very much, and I tried to come to an explanation ( I posted it here before), but mine was slightly different than yours.
My idea was, as it was the name "Riddle" that struck Harry's mind, that baby Harry used to know someone named Riddle, but not necessarily Tom Riddle.
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Padfoot - May 7, 2004 12:36 pm (#104 of 183)
Since JKR hardly ever makes comments like these and does nothing with them, I think something will happen in book 6 or the beginning of book 7 that will address this issue. I also think it's more that just the AK event that Harry remembers. Since he thinks of Tom as a half forgotten friend not enemy, I think that is interesting. The name brings no fear or unease in Harry. I am not going anywhere with this, just talking out loud. I'd like to hear some more theories about this.
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Star Crossed - May 7, 2004 12:43 pm (#105 of 183)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Well, when I hear Riddle, I usually think of a joke, jokes are funny, they make you happy. Word association, you know? I still think it's a charm Riddle put on the diary that made people think he was a nice guy. You pick up the diary, you feel happy. You open the diary, you feel wonderful. You write in the diary, ecstatic.
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Hagsquid - May 7, 2004 3:31 pm (#106 of 183)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
I just now realized that JKR named him riddle to give us a clue that his name was a "riddle" that we might have wanted to figure out. Wow. I feel sheepish.
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Tomoé - May 7, 2004 5:28 pm (#107 of 183)
Back in business
Here's my take of what happened : Tomoé post #62.
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Robert Dierken - May 7, 2004 6:55 pm (#108 of 183)
Perhaps it was Nelson Riddle. (Just kidding!)
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vball man - May 8, 2004 8:33 pm (#109 of 183)
He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
I assumed (after OoP, more confidently) that Vol's powers/feelings were placed into Harry's head on Oct31,81. When Harry saw the name "Riddle," the Vol feelings in his head felt familiar with the name, and Harry had the described feelings.
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Emily - May 10, 2004 4:37 pm (#110 of 183)
Tomoé- if I'm reading right (and I'm probably not) you're saying that Riddle put something like the Imperius Curse on his diary. That seems like something he would do and would be able to do, so it sounds possible to me.
Hagsqid- don't feel bad, I never picked up on it until you pointed it out.
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Tomoé - May 10, 2004 5:57 pm (#111 of 183)
Back in business
Not exactly a spell of the imperius curse kind, more of the muggle repellent one but in reverse, people get obsessive with the diary, want to keep it on them all the time, keep look in, write in it, but they don't have very specific orders to follow.
Tom passed the summer between his 5th and 6th years in Hogwarts and could even had had the permission the go in the library restricted section, the one with Dark Arts book.
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haymoni - May 10, 2004 7:47 pm (#112 of 183)
I got the impression that Tom had spent more than 1 summer at Hogwarts. Wonder if that will happen to Harry in Book 6 - "shortest stay at Privet Drive ever".
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Tomoé - May 10, 2004 7:57 pm (#113 of 183)
Back in business
I got that impression too, that Tom had spent more than 1 summer at Hogwarts, but the scene only allow to safely conclude he spent Summer 1942 in Hogwarts.
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sewfuninme - May 13, 2004 12:23 pm (#114 of 183)
It seems as if the conclusion of many is that it is Lily that was known by Voldemort, based on his comment to stand aside. Perhaps it was not through Lily, but through James that Harry may have known Tom. First, Tom notes the similarities that he and Harry have. Many have noted how much Harry looks like James. This leads me to the conclusion that Tom and James are related somehow, not Tom and Lily. Since Lily is from a muggle family, this makes more sense. We know nothing of Lily and Petunia's family, but even less of James' family. In fact I think we know less of James' family, than of Tom's family. Perhaps James and Tom are cousins or uncle and nephew.
If it is through James, as a relative, that Tom and Harry know each other, then it would seem more "reasonable" that James would be a threat to Tom, whereas Lily would not be. She wouldn't need to be killed, but James would, and so would his son.
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Star Crossed - May 13, 2004 12:38 pm (#115 of 183)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I always thought the only reason Voldemort killed James was because he was trying to protect his family, and time, by dueling with Voldemort. It's not like Voldemort could turn his back and leave in the middle of a duel. He'd be..well, not killed, but hurt!
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Weeny Owl - May 13, 2004 2:18 pm (#116 of 183)
I like the idea of the opposite of a Muggle repellant. When I reread that part, it seemed that the diary was enchanted somehow because Harry couldn't seem to forget it. It seemed more that there was some sort of attraction-type spell on it rather than Riddle actually being a half-forgotten friend. Something that would make the person holding the diary WANT to write in it.
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Tomoé - May 13, 2004 3:14 pm (#117 of 183)
Back in business
An attractive spell would also explain why Ginny wrote again in the diary after she dropped it in Myrtle's toilet. She knew the diary was making her do things, she should have know better than write in it again.
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Weeny Owl - May 13, 2004 4:52 pm (#118 of 183)
Maybe she did know better but was compelled to. After all that time with the diary and/or Tom influencing her, I'm sure it would be difficult to resist. I would like to know if Ginny had that same feeling of a half-forgotten friend that Harry had.
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Chemyst - May 30, 2004 7:57 am (#119 of 183)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
This is one of those threads that I "always meant to read," and now that it is on the munchers schedule I did it.
Going back to life in 1980, the idea of Tom Riddle as child predator and perhaps the nice-man-with-the-candy, does make some sense. Voldemort probably would want "to case out the joint" before charging in brandishing his wand. (I've read the early posts closely but have only skimmed most of the basilisk ones in the middle, so I hope I'm not repeating.)
In the early posts to this thread, many were trying to cram the time frame of Riddle meeting Harry into the short interval between Peter's betrayal and the actual attack. But that is not necessary, in fact, that is not even the better story. Riddle (that's Voldemort using his Riddle-look) could have made contact with Harry wherever the Potters were living before they went into hiding. These would be nice memories for Harry. The Potters probably knew the enemy only as Voldemort, at least early on. Then one day, DD shows up, recognizes Riddle, and promptly decides to whisk the Potters away into hiding. It is only now that Peter's role would become important-- Voldemort needs to find the Potters to finish the job DD interrupted.
Since Harry has subconscious recall of a flying motorbike and a flash of green light, we have to accept that he could half-remember other things too. Parents probably wouldn't talk about super-scary stuff in front of their child; Harry would be left with good memories of Riddle.
If, in the final showdown Harry does do something to transform Voldemort back into Tom Riddle, it could be that much tougher for Harry to face an old friend instead of a life-long enemy, but COS probably took care of that!
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Star Crossed - May 30, 2004 10:04 am (#120 of 183)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I'm confused with this Riddle-Voldemort thing. I always thought that when DD said Riddle underwent changes, it was impossible to guess they were the same person. But the way everyone seems to be talking, it's like he could change from Riddle to Voldemort. First off, if he could, why would he want to? If he could get into the Potters' house, why not just kill Harry then? That confuses me. Why would Harry remember that anyway? I can barely remember what I had for breakfast. I still believe the only reason he remembers Riddle is because it's a charm on the diary to make you trust the diary. I'm reminded of what Ron warned Harry about books and all they could do.
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haymoni - May 30, 2004 2:24 pm (#121 of 183)
I think it is the connection between Harry & Voldemort that draws him to the name.
Harry feels that he should know the name and, if he was just starting to realize that his burning scar meant something more than just pain, maybe he actually WAS remembering the name via Voldemort's memories. It wasn't a strong memory, just a feeling.
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Weeny Owl - May 30, 2004 4:29 pm (#122 of 183)
I still believe the only reason he remembers Riddle is because it's a charm on the diary to make you trust the diary. I'm reminded of what Ron warned Harry about books and all they could do.
I always looked at it that way. It seems that the diary had some sort of compulsion spell so that whoever had it couldn't seem to stop thinking about it. Since this is the magical world, that does make sense.
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Madame Librarian - Jun 4, 2004 5:19 pm (#123 of 183)
Chemyst, I love your scenario of how Harry might have known Riddle. I am, I admit, not sure how it would all work with what we know was supposedly going on with Voldemort at the time, his leaving his Riddle-self behind and becoming the semi-immortal Voldemort. So, all those who can't buy this theory do have a point. I imagine there could be some very special single episode of Voldemort re-forming himself into Riddle (through intricate magic, of course) to visit the Wizard world in order to...what, I don't know...maybe wheel and deal with the dementors, pay a little visit to the head goblin at Gringotts, something like that. While in his old body, he finds it curiously pleasant to spy on the life he left behind. It would have been during this period, perhaps, that his meeting with the Potters might have happened.
This is probably just good fodder for a fanfic, but I know it will be disappointing to me if the half-remembered friend turns out to be just because of the magic in the diary or the transfer of powers when Harry was a baby.
Ciao. Barb
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Scarlet Seer - Jun 14, 2004 5:41 pm (#124 of 183)
S.E. Jones and Sherbie Lemon, I think you both may have the right idea. Extrapolating from there, there’s another potential scenario. Dumbledore told us that Voldemort was one of the most brilliant students to ever attend Hogwarts. Harry on the other hand, is far from brilliant. He manages to get passing grades in his classes, but he certainly can’t be counted as Hogwarts’s most brilliant student. As this is true, how can Voldemort, who is not only brilliant, but also very experienced, mark Harry as equal? Unless…
What if Voldemort’s curse did more than just make Harry a Parselmouth? What if all of Voldemort’s memories were transferred to Harry and have been lying dormant all these years? As S.E. Jones pointed out, this would explain why Harry remembered Riddle’s name, and it would explain how Harry could be Voldemort’s equal. Unfortunately, if this is true, these memories will almost certainly start surfacing soon. If Harry starts having visions of Voldemort’s childhood or if he accidentally performs a Dark Arts spell, he could be in serious trouble.
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dobbyiscool - Jun 15, 2004 9:21 am (#125 of 183)
Whatever women do they must do twice as well as men to be thought half as good. Luckily this is not difficult. --Charlotte Whitton
When I was reading OoP again last night, I noticed that DD always calls LV "Voldemort" when talking about him in his present state (he calls him Tom when he is talking about him as a student at Hogwarts, but I think that was only once), so why did he call him "Tom" when they where dualing? I don't know if this has been brought up before, so if it has, just redirect me. This was the only TMR thread I could find, so redirect me if I am in the wrong location as well. Thanks a million! Dobby
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Star Crossed - Jun 15, 2004 9:34 am (#126 of 183)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Well, dobby, I think he calls him Voldemort so everyone knew who he was talking about. If he called him Tom to...let's say Molly's face, she wouldn't think of Voldemort. She'd probably think of some student named Tom.
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mike miller - Jun 15, 2004 9:35 am (#127 of 183)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Dobbyiscool - I think you are defininately on to something. It was either this thread or the Lord Voldmeort/Tom Riddle thread where we talked about this.
I postulated that there may yet be some remenant of Tom somewhere deep inside Voldemort that DD was trying to reach. If true, this could create an avenue for Voldemorts destruction.
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dobbyiscool - Jun 15, 2004 9:51 am (#128 of 183)
Whatever women do they must do twice as well as men to be thought half as good. Luckily this is not difficult. --Charlotte Whitton
Molly would know now, after the Ginny and the Diary fiasco, that Tom was LV, but I agree with mike about DD trying to reach the Tom inside of Voldemort. Unfortunetly, it didn't work.
Another thought, Tom was named after his muggle father, so perhapes DD was trying to remind him he wasn't pureblood, or maybe he tried to strike a nerve to get LV to lose his cool or something like that.
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Julia. - Jun 15, 2004 12:09 pm (#129 of 183)
74% obsessed! Uconn Jew Crew says: is it August yet?
Edited by S.E. Jones Jun 16, 2004 5:04 pm
I always thought Dumbledore called him 'Tom' just so he remembers that Dumbledore was his teacher. He may be Big Bad Voldemort to everyone else, but to Dumbledore, he is Little Tom Riddle, his student at Hogwarts. This no doubt infuriated Voldie. When reading OoP and Dumbledore called him Tom my first reaction was 'That must have peeved him off.' I assume Voldie's reaction was simillar.
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S.E. Jones - Jun 16, 2004 1:01 am (#130 of 183)
Let it snow!
I agree Julia. I'm reminded of the scene in Dumbledore's office in OotP when they're discussing taking Dumbledore away and he talks to the Auror Dawlish and you get the sense that he's doing the same thing. He's reminding the guy that he's just the student and he's the teacher, and it makes Dawlish pause. I think that is exactly what he was trying to do with Voldemort by calling him Tom.
(OotP, ch27, pg620, US):
...[Fudge] made a small choking noise and then looked around at Kingsley and the man with short gray hair, who alone of everyone in the room had remained entirely silent so far. The latter gave Fudge a reassuring nod and moved forward a little, away from the wall. Harry saw his hand drift, almost casually, toward his pocket.
"Don't be silly, Dawlish," said Dumbledore kindly. "I'm sure you are an excellent Auror, I seem to remember that you achieved 'Outstanding' in all you NEWTs, but if you attempt to - er - 'bring me in' by force, I will have to hurt you."
The man called Dawlish blinked, looking rather foolish. He looked toward Fudge again, but this time seemed to be hoping for a clue as to what to do next.
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sewfuninme - Jun 16, 2004 2:53 pm (#131 of 183)
Edited by S.E. Jones Jun 16, 2004 5:04 pm
Julia - I agree that must have really "peeved him off". A reminder that he isn't as big as he thinks he is.
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vball man - Jun 16, 2004 8:06 pm (#132 of 183)
He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
Especially for someone like Dawlish, who is used to commanding respect of everyone.
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Robert Dierken - Jun 19, 2004 7:11 pm (#133 of 183)
The only other Tom that I can recall is the barkeeper at the Leaky Cauldron.
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Killian - Jun 20, 2004 3:07 pm (#134 of 183)
Okay, I wanted to say a couple of things about this. First, I don't hold the whole Tom and Voldemort being two seperate people or anything of that nature. Tom is not a nice person--we saw that in Chamber of Secrets, when he set loose the basilisk and framed Hagrid. Nice people don't do those things, and all Voldemort is is who Tom grew up to be. He's the same person. You don't become a different person just because your name changes when you get married, so why should Tom suddenly be different from Voldemort? In all honesty, I think that Julia is right. Tom was Dumbledore's student, and that's what he knows him as. It might just be a personal insult, calling him Tom instead of the name that everyone else fears.
Second, as for the old friend remark that Harry makes, I kind of spotted something similar to that in OotP. We know that Voldemort, or Tom, is the heir of Slytherin, and Harry is very likely the heir of Gryffindor. In the sorting hat's new song in Book 5, which I think JKR said somewhere it was supposed to be important, one of the lines is "For were there such friends anywhere As Slytherin and Gryffindor?" Somehow, that just connected in my mind to the remark that Harry makes in CoS. Maybe this was mentioned elsewhere on this thread, but if it was then I wouldn't know since I don't have the time to go back and read all 133 posts.
Anyway, it reminded me of the line in book 2 because if they are the heirs of the two houses, and those two former men use to be friends, then . . . I don't know! Reincarnation, maybe? Or maybe someone else has a thought, because frankly, I'm a bit brain dead right now.
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Liz - Jun 20, 2004 5:43 pm (#135 of 183)
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Yes the two Godric and Salazar had been friends at one time in order to make a school, so if Harry was heir to Griffindor and Voldie to Slytherin, then they would in a way be like distant friends.
Shivers....
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popkin - Jun 21, 2004 2:18 am (#136 of 183)
mother
Edited by Jun 21, 2004 2:23 am
That's a very interesting thought, Killian. I wonder if the recognition of Slytherin heirs could have been magically planted in Griffindor heirs. Harry couldn't have connected his innate feelings of friendship to the name Voldemort, because he's known to be the one who killed Harry's parents, but without any previous knowledge of "Tom Riddle"'s background the ancient magic is able to kick in and do its work. Sorry, that's the best I can do at 4:30 AM.
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Cassandra1234 - Jun 30, 2004 11:53 am (#137 of 183)
I think that the familiarity he feels towards the name is just a first shadow of the connection that Harry has with Voldemort. Like the way he's a parseltongue...
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koala marpusial - Jul 1, 2004 9:06 pm (#138 of 183)
are you from new zealand?
I'm willing to bet this half-forgotten friend thing has something-- yes, something -- to do with time travel.
I think everyone will be able to surmise what this might mean... or could mean in a number of ways...
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spug - Jul 1, 2004 9:29 pm (#139 of 183)
I agree with Cassandra1234. I don't think the "half-forgotten friend" is something to take literaly. I think it is just implying that the name will have an importance in the future, and is in some way related to Harry. I feel that Harry's recognition of the name is simply because of the connection Harry has with Voldemort through his scar and the fact that "he [Voldemort] transferred some of his own powers to you [Harry] the night he gave you that scar." (-Dumbledore, CoS ch. 18 pg. 333 AE) Also, I don't think "Tom Riddle" is much more than a "half-forgotten friend" to Voldemort either.
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contess lillein asend - Jul 20, 2004 3:12 pm (#140 of 183)
Koala: Maybe your on to something. I watched POA for the (won't even tell you) time and I noticed when Snape had Lupin's class he kept saying turn to page 394. So I wen't home and turned to page 394. Harry discovers the time turner. What after all this he goes back to the begining and one act can undo the whole thing. Like killing Voldie in his parents driveway.
Talk about Shivers.
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Little Ginny - Jul 20, 2004 4:15 pm (#141 of 183)
Contess, in my copy of POA (UK paperback) on page 394, it's about how Lupin and Sirius want to force Scabbers/Pettigrew to reveal himself.
Which copy did you use?
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 20, 2004 4:22 pm (#142 of 183)
Crazed Writer
While not discounting any of the really interesting suggestions that other people have made, I'm wondering if, when Voldemort attacked Harry, all his powers and memories got slammed into Harry's infant brain. Harry's brain wasn't ready to do anything with all that information, so it's just been shuffled to the back, sitting in his subconcious, waiting to emerge. I think that's the only way Harry could be Voldemort's "equal". In fact, Dumbledore even implied as much at the end of OotP! After all, being able to speak Parseltongue would hardly be enough to make Harry Voldemort's equal. Voldie is 70 years old, was one of Hogwarts' best students ever, and (according to Dumbledore) may know more magic than any other wizard currently living.
This instance of recognizing the name "T.M. Riddle" could be an instance of one of those subconcious memories emerging, just as being able to speak Parseltongue is an instance of one of Voldemort's powers emerging.
Actually, I've been wondering if this is the "thing that was little" in CoS that's going to become very big in HBP. If those powers are going to do Harry any good at all, he's going to have to learn how to deal with them this year. Dumbledore's obviously got to teach him Occlumency this year. Could that, or all this contact with Voldemort's mind, trigger an outpouring of Voldemort's powers (and memories)? (Ick, all those murders!)
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popkin - Jul 20, 2004 11:06 pm (#143 of 183)
mother
Edited by Jul 20, 2004 11:09 pm
I think it's possible that Harry got a brain infusion from Voldemort in the failed AK curse, but I don't think the marking made Harry Voldemort's equal. It identified which boy Voldemort felt was most like himself. This is what Dumbledore said - that Voldemort chose his equal and then marked him (inadvertantly).
OFF TOPIC ALERT: Hey, RPS, could you check out my spider thread before it goes to the chop? I was actually hoping you could get us on the right track spider-sleuthing-wise. Thanks.
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zelmia - Jul 21, 2004 1:15 am (#144 of 183)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Snape says to turn to page 394 in the film because that's what he says in the book. I don't think there's any more to it than that. "Miss Granger" said Snape in a voice of deadly calm, "I was under the impression that I am taching this lesson, not you. And I am telling you all to turn to page 394." - PA Ch. 9 But out of interest, my US page 394 also has the Time Turner Reveal.
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Tomoé - Jul 21, 2004 7:52 pm (#145 of 183)
Back in business
My UK hardcover PoA doesn't have any page 394.
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vball man - Jul 24, 2004 9:11 pm (#146 of 183)
He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
I agree with RPSpider. I think that Harry has all the powers Vol had at the time of the curse, plus what he inherited from James and Lily, plus what Lily gave him with her sacrifice. Harry does not know how to use most of these powers. And even later, I think that Harry will be "too noble to use them."
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 25, 2004 9:24 am (#147 of 183)
Crazed Writer
Let's hope so, Vball man!
But many of those powers would be just ordinary magic and not Dark Arts, and those would come in very handy!
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 25, 2004 10:16 am (#148 of 183)
Crazed Writer
By the way, if Harry does have Voldie's memories and powers and they start emerging this next year, can you imagine Snape's face when Harry starts knowing how to do all those potions perfectly from memory? I feel like Ron contemplating "Draco Malfoy, the amazing bouncing ferret."
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Scarlet Seer - Jul 28, 2004 4:32 am (#149 of 183)
Oh, dear. I hope Harry doesn't start to pick up any of Voldie's mannerisms; that would be too creepy. And Snape would know what it meant, too. Incidentally, did you notice that Harry has already done a spell that he only knew from his contact with Tom Riddle. In CoS, Harry did the spider-repelling spell which he knew from seen Tom Riddle's diary. Ron didn't know it; in fact, Ron didn't even know ABOUT it, so I don't think they learned it in class. In addition, Harry somehow knew that the spell wouldn't be powerful enough to fight all of the spiders. How could he know that, since he'd never tried it or even heard of the spell before that night? After all, the "Accio" spell can pick up a paper clip or a feather, but it can also bring two broomsticks out of their chains, through a wall, and down the corridors of Hogwarts to Fred and George Weasley.
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 28, 2004 11:20 am (#150 of 183)
Crazed Writer
Um, Scarlet Seer? Those spider spells were only in the movie...Generally, the movies aren't considered "canon". But you're right, it would be just too creepy if Harry started acting like Voldemort. I've thought of that, too...
Popkin, exactly! That was my thinking and why I started this post. That paragraph seems to contain so many couched clues/hints. I didn't notice, of course, on first reading ages ago, but since being on the Forum, I pay particular attention to Harry's inner monologues where he tries to think things out for himself. The language there is so...so...evocative (best word I can find) of what I feel sometimes when a memory just eludes me but I know it will be a real important one when it finally comes out. I believe Harry's unconscious is struggling here to produce that key memory about Riddle. The only explanation I can imagine (not that there isn't a better one) is the one you mention above--somehow Riddle/Voldie was part of Harry's life when he was a baby. The awful thoughts I have about Lily and James and how they could have been associated with Voldie...well, I'm too chicken to let them fully develop in my own mind because I fear what I'd come up with. I did post some more benign scenarios toward the beginning of this thread when the discussion first took off.
Ciao. Barb
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popkin - May 7, 2004 6:58 am (#102 of 183)
mother
Edited by May 7, 2004 7:03 am
If, as Star Crossed says, "twice" means Halloween '81 and the end of SS/PS, then Harry never met Riddle before he defeated him. Yet, he feels he knows him - and I'm convinced it's not just a throwover from the rebounded AK. I still think there's something there - and from what Harry says, it's not the name "Tom Riddle", but something about finishing the story of Tom Riddle - a story which he has already begun to read (or, knowing JKR, to write).
Maybe there's another dark object, something like the diary, that was in Harry's parents' home. Maybe Harry played with it as a baby and came to know Riddle through it to some extent. Maybe it is associated with Lily's past connection to Riddle - something from her own childhood, passed to her from Great Uncle Marvolo, or something.
Lily is relatively kind to Snape in the vision Harry sees in the pensieve. Maybe she just had a soft spot for villains. Or maybe....she, Snape and Riddle are interconnected (and Mark Evans - can't forget him). I'm going in circles. I love this theory, but can't get anywhere with it. I hope book six will be done soon. I have a feeling I've begun reading a book with blank pages, and I'd like to finish it.
You know, Barb, diary Tom would only know about future events that Ginny, Harry (or possibly Lucius) had told him about. If none of those people know about an association between Tom and Lily, or of a meeting between pre-snakeface LV and baby Harry, diary Tom would not know about it either. I'm still holding out for a face to face meeting between Tom Riddle, Lily and Harry.
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Little Ginny - May 7, 2004 10:13 am (#103 of 183)
Popkin, the same lines interested me very much, and I tried to come to an explanation ( I posted it here before), but mine was slightly different than yours.
My idea was, as it was the name "Riddle" that struck Harry's mind, that baby Harry used to know someone named Riddle, but not necessarily Tom Riddle.
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Padfoot - May 7, 2004 12:36 pm (#104 of 183)
Since JKR hardly ever makes comments like these and does nothing with them, I think something will happen in book 6 or the beginning of book 7 that will address this issue. I also think it's more that just the AK event that Harry remembers. Since he thinks of Tom as a half forgotten friend not enemy, I think that is interesting. The name brings no fear or unease in Harry. I am not going anywhere with this, just talking out loud. I'd like to hear some more theories about this.
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Star Crossed - May 7, 2004 12:43 pm (#105 of 183)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Well, when I hear Riddle, I usually think of a joke, jokes are funny, they make you happy. Word association, you know? I still think it's a charm Riddle put on the diary that made people think he was a nice guy. You pick up the diary, you feel happy. You open the diary, you feel wonderful. You write in the diary, ecstatic.
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Hagsquid - May 7, 2004 3:31 pm (#106 of 183)
This is me listening to OoP for the umteenth time.
I just now realized that JKR named him riddle to give us a clue that his name was a "riddle" that we might have wanted to figure out. Wow. I feel sheepish.
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Tomoé - May 7, 2004 5:28 pm (#107 of 183)
Back in business
Here's my take of what happened : Tomoé post #62.
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Robert Dierken - May 7, 2004 6:55 pm (#108 of 183)
Perhaps it was Nelson Riddle. (Just kidding!)
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vball man - May 8, 2004 8:33 pm (#109 of 183)
He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
I assumed (after OoP, more confidently) that Vol's powers/feelings were placed into Harry's head on Oct31,81. When Harry saw the name "Riddle," the Vol feelings in his head felt familiar with the name, and Harry had the described feelings.
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Emily - May 10, 2004 4:37 pm (#110 of 183)
Tomoé- if I'm reading right (and I'm probably not) you're saying that Riddle put something like the Imperius Curse on his diary. That seems like something he would do and would be able to do, so it sounds possible to me.
Hagsqid- don't feel bad, I never picked up on it until you pointed it out.
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Tomoé - May 10, 2004 5:57 pm (#111 of 183)
Back in business
Not exactly a spell of the imperius curse kind, more of the muggle repellent one but in reverse, people get obsessive with the diary, want to keep it on them all the time, keep look in, write in it, but they don't have very specific orders to follow.
Tom passed the summer between his 5th and 6th years in Hogwarts and could even had had the permission the go in the library restricted section, the one with Dark Arts book.
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haymoni - May 10, 2004 7:47 pm (#112 of 183)
I got the impression that Tom had spent more than 1 summer at Hogwarts. Wonder if that will happen to Harry in Book 6 - "shortest stay at Privet Drive ever".
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Tomoé - May 10, 2004 7:57 pm (#113 of 183)
Back in business
I got that impression too, that Tom had spent more than 1 summer at Hogwarts, but the scene only allow to safely conclude he spent Summer 1942 in Hogwarts.
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sewfuninme - May 13, 2004 12:23 pm (#114 of 183)
It seems as if the conclusion of many is that it is Lily that was known by Voldemort, based on his comment to stand aside. Perhaps it was not through Lily, but through James that Harry may have known Tom. First, Tom notes the similarities that he and Harry have. Many have noted how much Harry looks like James. This leads me to the conclusion that Tom and James are related somehow, not Tom and Lily. Since Lily is from a muggle family, this makes more sense. We know nothing of Lily and Petunia's family, but even less of James' family. In fact I think we know less of James' family, than of Tom's family. Perhaps James and Tom are cousins or uncle and nephew.
If it is through James, as a relative, that Tom and Harry know each other, then it would seem more "reasonable" that James would be a threat to Tom, whereas Lily would not be. She wouldn't need to be killed, but James would, and so would his son.
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Star Crossed - May 13, 2004 12:38 pm (#115 of 183)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I always thought the only reason Voldemort killed James was because he was trying to protect his family, and time, by dueling with Voldemort. It's not like Voldemort could turn his back and leave in the middle of a duel. He'd be..well, not killed, but hurt!
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Weeny Owl - May 13, 2004 2:18 pm (#116 of 183)
I like the idea of the opposite of a Muggle repellant. When I reread that part, it seemed that the diary was enchanted somehow because Harry couldn't seem to forget it. It seemed more that there was some sort of attraction-type spell on it rather than Riddle actually being a half-forgotten friend. Something that would make the person holding the diary WANT to write in it.
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Tomoé - May 13, 2004 3:14 pm (#117 of 183)
Back in business
An attractive spell would also explain why Ginny wrote again in the diary after she dropped it in Myrtle's toilet. She knew the diary was making her do things, she should have know better than write in it again.
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Weeny Owl - May 13, 2004 4:52 pm (#118 of 183)
Maybe she did know better but was compelled to. After all that time with the diary and/or Tom influencing her, I'm sure it would be difficult to resist. I would like to know if Ginny had that same feeling of a half-forgotten friend that Harry had.
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Chemyst - May 30, 2004 7:57 am (#119 of 183)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
This is one of those threads that I "always meant to read," and now that it is on the munchers schedule I did it.
Going back to life in 1980, the idea of Tom Riddle as child predator and perhaps the nice-man-with-the-candy, does make some sense. Voldemort probably would want "to case out the joint" before charging in brandishing his wand. (I've read the early posts closely but have only skimmed most of the basilisk ones in the middle, so I hope I'm not repeating.)
In the early posts to this thread, many were trying to cram the time frame of Riddle meeting Harry into the short interval between Peter's betrayal and the actual attack. But that is not necessary, in fact, that is not even the better story. Riddle (that's Voldemort using his Riddle-look) could have made contact with Harry wherever the Potters were living before they went into hiding. These would be nice memories for Harry. The Potters probably knew the enemy only as Voldemort, at least early on. Then one day, DD shows up, recognizes Riddle, and promptly decides to whisk the Potters away into hiding. It is only now that Peter's role would become important-- Voldemort needs to find the Potters to finish the job DD interrupted.
Since Harry has subconscious recall of a flying motorbike and a flash of green light, we have to accept that he could half-remember other things too. Parents probably wouldn't talk about super-scary stuff in front of their child; Harry would be left with good memories of Riddle.
If, in the final showdown Harry does do something to transform Voldemort back into Tom Riddle, it could be that much tougher for Harry to face an old friend instead of a life-long enemy, but COS probably took care of that!
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Star Crossed - May 30, 2004 10:04 am (#120 of 183)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I'm confused with this Riddle-Voldemort thing. I always thought that when DD said Riddle underwent changes, it was impossible to guess they were the same person. But the way everyone seems to be talking, it's like he could change from Riddle to Voldemort. First off, if he could, why would he want to? If he could get into the Potters' house, why not just kill Harry then? That confuses me. Why would Harry remember that anyway? I can barely remember what I had for breakfast. I still believe the only reason he remembers Riddle is because it's a charm on the diary to make you trust the diary. I'm reminded of what Ron warned Harry about books and all they could do.
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haymoni - May 30, 2004 2:24 pm (#121 of 183)
I think it is the connection between Harry & Voldemort that draws him to the name.
Harry feels that he should know the name and, if he was just starting to realize that his burning scar meant something more than just pain, maybe he actually WAS remembering the name via Voldemort's memories. It wasn't a strong memory, just a feeling.
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Weeny Owl - May 30, 2004 4:29 pm (#122 of 183)
I still believe the only reason he remembers Riddle is because it's a charm on the diary to make you trust the diary. I'm reminded of what Ron warned Harry about books and all they could do.
I always looked at it that way. It seems that the diary had some sort of compulsion spell so that whoever had it couldn't seem to stop thinking about it. Since this is the magical world, that does make sense.
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Madame Librarian - Jun 4, 2004 5:19 pm (#123 of 183)
Chemyst, I love your scenario of how Harry might have known Riddle. I am, I admit, not sure how it would all work with what we know was supposedly going on with Voldemort at the time, his leaving his Riddle-self behind and becoming the semi-immortal Voldemort. So, all those who can't buy this theory do have a point. I imagine there could be some very special single episode of Voldemort re-forming himself into Riddle (through intricate magic, of course) to visit the Wizard world in order to...what, I don't know...maybe wheel and deal with the dementors, pay a little visit to the head goblin at Gringotts, something like that. While in his old body, he finds it curiously pleasant to spy on the life he left behind. It would have been during this period, perhaps, that his meeting with the Potters might have happened.
This is probably just good fodder for a fanfic, but I know it will be disappointing to me if the half-remembered friend turns out to be just because of the magic in the diary or the transfer of powers when Harry was a baby.
Ciao. Barb
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Scarlet Seer - Jun 14, 2004 5:41 pm (#124 of 183)
S.E. Jones and Sherbie Lemon, I think you both may have the right idea. Extrapolating from there, there’s another potential scenario. Dumbledore told us that Voldemort was one of the most brilliant students to ever attend Hogwarts. Harry on the other hand, is far from brilliant. He manages to get passing grades in his classes, but he certainly can’t be counted as Hogwarts’s most brilliant student. As this is true, how can Voldemort, who is not only brilliant, but also very experienced, mark Harry as equal? Unless…
What if Voldemort’s curse did more than just make Harry a Parselmouth? What if all of Voldemort’s memories were transferred to Harry and have been lying dormant all these years? As S.E. Jones pointed out, this would explain why Harry remembered Riddle’s name, and it would explain how Harry could be Voldemort’s equal. Unfortunately, if this is true, these memories will almost certainly start surfacing soon. If Harry starts having visions of Voldemort’s childhood or if he accidentally performs a Dark Arts spell, he could be in serious trouble.
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dobbyiscool - Jun 15, 2004 9:21 am (#125 of 183)
Whatever women do they must do twice as well as men to be thought half as good. Luckily this is not difficult. --Charlotte Whitton
When I was reading OoP again last night, I noticed that DD always calls LV "Voldemort" when talking about him in his present state (he calls him Tom when he is talking about him as a student at Hogwarts, but I think that was only once), so why did he call him "Tom" when they where dualing? I don't know if this has been brought up before, so if it has, just redirect me. This was the only TMR thread I could find, so redirect me if I am in the wrong location as well. Thanks a million! Dobby
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Star Crossed - Jun 15, 2004 9:34 am (#126 of 183)
Ever wonder what happened while the Marauders were at Hogwarts? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Well, dobby, I think he calls him Voldemort so everyone knew who he was talking about. If he called him Tom to...let's say Molly's face, she wouldn't think of Voldemort. She'd probably think of some student named Tom.
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mike miller - Jun 15, 2004 9:35 am (#127 of 183)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
Dobbyiscool - I think you are defininately on to something. It was either this thread or the Lord Voldmeort/Tom Riddle thread where we talked about this.
I postulated that there may yet be some remenant of Tom somewhere deep inside Voldemort that DD was trying to reach. If true, this could create an avenue for Voldemorts destruction.
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dobbyiscool - Jun 15, 2004 9:51 am (#128 of 183)
Whatever women do they must do twice as well as men to be thought half as good. Luckily this is not difficult. --Charlotte Whitton
Molly would know now, after the Ginny and the Diary fiasco, that Tom was LV, but I agree with mike about DD trying to reach the Tom inside of Voldemort. Unfortunetly, it didn't work.
Another thought, Tom was named after his muggle father, so perhapes DD was trying to remind him he wasn't pureblood, or maybe he tried to strike a nerve to get LV to lose his cool or something like that.
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Julia. - Jun 15, 2004 12:09 pm (#129 of 183)
74% obsessed! Uconn Jew Crew says: is it August yet?
Edited by S.E. Jones Jun 16, 2004 5:04 pm
I always thought Dumbledore called him 'Tom' just so he remembers that Dumbledore was his teacher. He may be Big Bad Voldemort to everyone else, but to Dumbledore, he is Little Tom Riddle, his student at Hogwarts. This no doubt infuriated Voldie. When reading OoP and Dumbledore called him Tom my first reaction was 'That must have peeved him off.' I assume Voldie's reaction was simillar.
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S.E. Jones - Jun 16, 2004 1:01 am (#130 of 183)
Let it snow!
I agree Julia. I'm reminded of the scene in Dumbledore's office in OotP when they're discussing taking Dumbledore away and he talks to the Auror Dawlish and you get the sense that he's doing the same thing. He's reminding the guy that he's just the student and he's the teacher, and it makes Dawlish pause. I think that is exactly what he was trying to do with Voldemort by calling him Tom.
(OotP, ch27, pg620, US):
...[Fudge] made a small choking noise and then looked around at Kingsley and the man with short gray hair, who alone of everyone in the room had remained entirely silent so far. The latter gave Fudge a reassuring nod and moved forward a little, away from the wall. Harry saw his hand drift, almost casually, toward his pocket.
"Don't be silly, Dawlish," said Dumbledore kindly. "I'm sure you are an excellent Auror, I seem to remember that you achieved 'Outstanding' in all you NEWTs, but if you attempt to - er - 'bring me in' by force, I will have to hurt you."
The man called Dawlish blinked, looking rather foolish. He looked toward Fudge again, but this time seemed to be hoping for a clue as to what to do next.
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sewfuninme - Jun 16, 2004 2:53 pm (#131 of 183)
Edited by S.E. Jones Jun 16, 2004 5:04 pm
Julia - I agree that must have really "peeved him off". A reminder that he isn't as big as he thinks he is.
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vball man - Jun 16, 2004 8:06 pm (#132 of 183)
He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
Especially for someone like Dawlish, who is used to commanding respect of everyone.
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Robert Dierken - Jun 19, 2004 7:11 pm (#133 of 183)
The only other Tom that I can recall is the barkeeper at the Leaky Cauldron.
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Killian - Jun 20, 2004 3:07 pm (#134 of 183)
Okay, I wanted to say a couple of things about this. First, I don't hold the whole Tom and Voldemort being two seperate people or anything of that nature. Tom is not a nice person--we saw that in Chamber of Secrets, when he set loose the basilisk and framed Hagrid. Nice people don't do those things, and all Voldemort is is who Tom grew up to be. He's the same person. You don't become a different person just because your name changes when you get married, so why should Tom suddenly be different from Voldemort? In all honesty, I think that Julia is right. Tom was Dumbledore's student, and that's what he knows him as. It might just be a personal insult, calling him Tom instead of the name that everyone else fears.
Second, as for the old friend remark that Harry makes, I kind of spotted something similar to that in OotP. We know that Voldemort, or Tom, is the heir of Slytherin, and Harry is very likely the heir of Gryffindor. In the sorting hat's new song in Book 5, which I think JKR said somewhere it was supposed to be important, one of the lines is "For were there such friends anywhere As Slytherin and Gryffindor?" Somehow, that just connected in my mind to the remark that Harry makes in CoS. Maybe this was mentioned elsewhere on this thread, but if it was then I wouldn't know since I don't have the time to go back and read all 133 posts.
Anyway, it reminded me of the line in book 2 because if they are the heirs of the two houses, and those two former men use to be friends, then . . . I don't know! Reincarnation, maybe? Or maybe someone else has a thought, because frankly, I'm a bit brain dead right now.
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Liz - Jun 20, 2004 5:43 pm (#135 of 183)
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Yes the two Godric and Salazar had been friends at one time in order to make a school, so if Harry was heir to Griffindor and Voldie to Slytherin, then they would in a way be like distant friends.
Shivers....
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popkin - Jun 21, 2004 2:18 am (#136 of 183)
mother
Edited by Jun 21, 2004 2:23 am
That's a very interesting thought, Killian. I wonder if the recognition of Slytherin heirs could have been magically planted in Griffindor heirs. Harry couldn't have connected his innate feelings of friendship to the name Voldemort, because he's known to be the one who killed Harry's parents, but without any previous knowledge of "Tom Riddle"'s background the ancient magic is able to kick in and do its work. Sorry, that's the best I can do at 4:30 AM.
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Cassandra1234 - Jun 30, 2004 11:53 am (#137 of 183)
I think that the familiarity he feels towards the name is just a first shadow of the connection that Harry has with Voldemort. Like the way he's a parseltongue...
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koala marpusial - Jul 1, 2004 9:06 pm (#138 of 183)
are you from new zealand?
I'm willing to bet this half-forgotten friend thing has something-- yes, something -- to do with time travel.
I think everyone will be able to surmise what this might mean... or could mean in a number of ways...
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spug - Jul 1, 2004 9:29 pm (#139 of 183)
I agree with Cassandra1234. I don't think the "half-forgotten friend" is something to take literaly. I think it is just implying that the name will have an importance in the future, and is in some way related to Harry. I feel that Harry's recognition of the name is simply because of the connection Harry has with Voldemort through his scar and the fact that "he [Voldemort] transferred some of his own powers to you [Harry] the night he gave you that scar." (-Dumbledore, CoS ch. 18 pg. 333 AE) Also, I don't think "Tom Riddle" is much more than a "half-forgotten friend" to Voldemort either.
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contess lillein asend - Jul 20, 2004 3:12 pm (#140 of 183)
Koala: Maybe your on to something. I watched POA for the (won't even tell you) time and I noticed when Snape had Lupin's class he kept saying turn to page 394. So I wen't home and turned to page 394. Harry discovers the time turner. What after all this he goes back to the begining and one act can undo the whole thing. Like killing Voldie in his parents driveway.
Talk about Shivers.
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Little Ginny - Jul 20, 2004 4:15 pm (#141 of 183)
Contess, in my copy of POA (UK paperback) on page 394, it's about how Lupin and Sirius want to force Scabbers/Pettigrew to reveal himself.
Which copy did you use?
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 20, 2004 4:22 pm (#142 of 183)
Crazed Writer
While not discounting any of the really interesting suggestions that other people have made, I'm wondering if, when Voldemort attacked Harry, all his powers and memories got slammed into Harry's infant brain. Harry's brain wasn't ready to do anything with all that information, so it's just been shuffled to the back, sitting in his subconcious, waiting to emerge. I think that's the only way Harry could be Voldemort's "equal". In fact, Dumbledore even implied as much at the end of OotP! After all, being able to speak Parseltongue would hardly be enough to make Harry Voldemort's equal. Voldie is 70 years old, was one of Hogwarts' best students ever, and (according to Dumbledore) may know more magic than any other wizard currently living.
This instance of recognizing the name "T.M. Riddle" could be an instance of one of those subconcious memories emerging, just as being able to speak Parseltongue is an instance of one of Voldemort's powers emerging.
Actually, I've been wondering if this is the "thing that was little" in CoS that's going to become very big in HBP. If those powers are going to do Harry any good at all, he's going to have to learn how to deal with them this year. Dumbledore's obviously got to teach him Occlumency this year. Could that, or all this contact with Voldemort's mind, trigger an outpouring of Voldemort's powers (and memories)? (Ick, all those murders!)
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popkin - Jul 20, 2004 11:06 pm (#143 of 183)
mother
Edited by Jul 20, 2004 11:09 pm
I think it's possible that Harry got a brain infusion from Voldemort in the failed AK curse, but I don't think the marking made Harry Voldemort's equal. It identified which boy Voldemort felt was most like himself. This is what Dumbledore said - that Voldemort chose his equal and then marked him (inadvertantly).
OFF TOPIC ALERT: Hey, RPS, could you check out my spider thread before it goes to the chop? I was actually hoping you could get us on the right track spider-sleuthing-wise. Thanks.
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zelmia - Jul 21, 2004 1:15 am (#144 of 183)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Snape says to turn to page 394 in the film because that's what he says in the book. I don't think there's any more to it than that. "Miss Granger" said Snape in a voice of deadly calm, "I was under the impression that I am taching this lesson, not you. And I am telling you all to turn to page 394." - PA Ch. 9 But out of interest, my US page 394 also has the Time Turner Reveal.
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Tomoé - Jul 21, 2004 7:52 pm (#145 of 183)
Back in business
My UK hardcover PoA doesn't have any page 394.
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vball man - Jul 24, 2004 9:11 pm (#146 of 183)
He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
I agree with RPSpider. I think that Harry has all the powers Vol had at the time of the curse, plus what he inherited from James and Lily, plus what Lily gave him with her sacrifice. Harry does not know how to use most of these powers. And even later, I think that Harry will be "too noble to use them."
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 25, 2004 9:24 am (#147 of 183)
Crazed Writer
Let's hope so, Vball man!
But many of those powers would be just ordinary magic and not Dark Arts, and those would come in very handy!
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 25, 2004 10:16 am (#148 of 183)
Crazed Writer
By the way, if Harry does have Voldie's memories and powers and they start emerging this next year, can you imagine Snape's face when Harry starts knowing how to do all those potions perfectly from memory? I feel like Ron contemplating "Draco Malfoy, the amazing bouncing ferret."
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Scarlet Seer - Jul 28, 2004 4:32 am (#149 of 183)
Oh, dear. I hope Harry doesn't start to pick up any of Voldie's mannerisms; that would be too creepy. And Snape would know what it meant, too. Incidentally, did you notice that Harry has already done a spell that he only knew from his contact with Tom Riddle. In CoS, Harry did the spider-repelling spell which he knew from seen Tom Riddle's diary. Ron didn't know it; in fact, Ron didn't even know ABOUT it, so I don't think they learned it in class. In addition, Harry somehow knew that the spell wouldn't be powerful enough to fight all of the spiders. How could he know that, since he'd never tried it or even heard of the spell before that night? After all, the "Accio" spell can pick up a paper clip or a feather, but it can also bring two broomsticks out of their chains, through a wall, and down the corridors of Hogwarts to Fred and George Weasley.
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Round Pink Spider - Jul 28, 2004 11:20 am (#150 of 183)
Crazed Writer
Um, Scarlet Seer? Those spider spells were only in the movie...Generally, the movies aren't considered "canon". But you're right, it would be just too creepy if Harry started acting like Voldemort. I've thought of that, too...
Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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T. M. Riddle, a half-forgotten friend (Post 151 to 183)
Elanor Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:57 am
Tomoé - Jul 29, 2004 4:08 pm (#151 of 183)
Back in business
And if Voldemort started acting like Harry, that would creep the DE too.
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Ann - Aug 2, 2004 6:47 pm (#152 of 183)
I think Harry's memory of having known Riddle is actually Voldemort's memory of having known Riddle--after all it was 50 years ago, which must seem like a long ago time to him. Is this memory perhaps the small thing in the CoS that will become a big thing in HBP? That Harry is sharing Voldemort's memories?
There is another possible example of Harry sharing one of Voldemort's memories in OotP, when he looks at the Easter egg Ginny has brought him and feels a lump in his throat, which he can't explain. This has been discussed on the Relationship thread, but it is always attributed to his allegedly blooming feelings for Ginny, or perhaps his gratitude to Mrs. Weasley for her motherly care. But it seems to me, when you have a lump in your throat, you usually tend to know why. This isn't my idea--it was posted by popkin, in her posting (#54--I don't know how to make the link) to the “What was Voldemort so afraid of in the Graveyard?” thread. She pointed out that this may have actually been an emotion that Voldemort felt. And given that JK has suggested we will hear more about Voldemort's birth and early life in HBP, it seems likely that this is how we will find out about it.
(What popkin said was: "They might know exactly what it was that made a hard lump rise in Harry's throat when he was looking at an Easter egg (OotP) - a particularly difficult childhood memory of Voldemort's?")
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zelmia - Aug 2, 2004 7:19 pm (#153 of 183)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
You don't necessarily "always" know why something moves you. How many times have you been watching the television and what you might normally think of as just another stupid advert comes on, but for some reason it really gets to you? I think we've all had this happen at least once in our lives.
I'm not discounting the possiblity that it was a distant connection with Voldemort's memories, but there were definitely more easily accessible emotions for Harry at that point, whose emotions were running pretty high throughout that particular stage of the saga.
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Ann - Aug 3, 2004 7:28 am (#154 of 183)
But an Easter egg?
An advertisement gets to us because the creators have cleverly included a lot of things that push our buttons. (They do a lot of research to be able to do this.) If you think about it, you can usually figure out what they are. I think that Harry's puzzled reaction to his feelings about the egg shows that it has pushed Voldemort's buttons, not his own. It seems very similar to his puzzlement over the 'half-forgotten friend'. And it's neat to think that Voldemort might have an emotional reaction to something like an Easter egg. Or am I making this up?
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Some Guy - Aug 20, 2004 12:32 am (#155 of 183)
COS, Tom Riddle speaks of Salazar Slytherins "noble work". This has intrigued me the most. What were the REAL intentions of Salazar Slytherin? Did Salazar advocate a muggle/mud blood genoicide similar to what Lord Voldemort practices, or did Salazar want to kill all of the Gryyfindors and take over the school? The following statement by Tom Riddle seems significant to me:
Lord Voldemort: "I decided to leave behind a diary, preserving my 16 year old self in its pages, so that one day, with luck, I would be able to lead another in my foot steps and finish Salazar Slytherins noble work"
Harry: "Well you haven't finished it. No one has died this time, not even the cat. In a few hours the mandrake draft will be ready, and everyone that was petrified will be all right again."
Lord Voldemort: "Haven't I already told you that killing mud bloods doesn't matter to me any more. For many months now, my new target has been you (Harry)."
I believe the above makes a strong case for my following theory:
Gryyfindor and Slytherin have fought a continuous battle for control of Hogwarts through out the ages. This "war" will only end when the last heir, of either, house is dead. I personally feel that the phoenix tail core found in the "brother" wands of Voldemort and Harry symbolize the renewing battle between Slytherin and Gryyfindor. Is this why Harry seems to remember Tom as a long lost friend? His Gryyfindor blood (assumption)?
If you guys have any idea why the other 3 founders did not remove Salazar from Hogwarts let me know. I also wonder why Salazar did not start his own school.
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Madame Librarian - Aug 20, 2004 8:39 am (#156 of 183)
Some Guy, these are all excellent questions, and just as apt for the new thread (it's "graduated" to a regular slot now) on the four founders specifically. Did you already double post? If not, maybe that would be a good idea.
Ciao. Barb
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popkin - Aug 20, 2004 3:35 pm (#157 of 183)
mother
Ann, that Easter egg was to me one of the more interesting things in OotP. I figured LV is frequently looking at the world through Harry's eyes, and at that moment was unprepared for the emotional impact of a memory brought on by that egg, and so let him emotions leak into Harry's consciousness. I want to know what it was that the egg made Voldemort remember.
At some point, I think Harry will be able to take advantage of their connection, and, like Voldemort now does to him, will purposely break into Voldemort's thoughts and look through his eyes into Voldemort's world.
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Madame Kulich - Aug 20, 2004 8:32 pm (#158 of 183)
What Easter egg? How can I get to it?
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Ann - Aug 20, 2004 8:49 pm (#159 of 183)
It is in the books, not a DVD (we're talking chocolate Easter Egg with candy inside). OotP, the library scene with Ginny soon after Harry has seen Snape's worst memory in the pensieve. I'm not sure it is Voldemort actively looking through Harry's eyes; he's not doing that in CoS when Harry has the same impossible memories of the names "Tom Riddle." I think Voldemort's acquired memories, as well as his inborn talents, were copied into to Harry along with the curse scar.
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Parrothead Patronus - Aug 24, 2004 9:59 pm (#160 of 183)
The weather is here.....wish you were beautiful
This is just a thought but, maby Tom Riddle was a long lost friend of Harry's. His imaginary friend. Harry was lonely as a child and didn't have any real friends. In this case it's not really his imagination manifesting its self but Voldy/Tom's memories as a child. The significance of this would be that this would be the first time the link between Harry and Voldy emerges. I believe stored deep down in Harry is a whole lot of power that is just waiting to come out thanks to his "old friend Tom". I'm positive that Voldy transferred more powers to Harry than we've seen so far. I think something is going to happen in the last two books, maby something hormonal, thats going to lets these powers out.
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 25, 2004 6:03 pm (#161 of 183)
Crazed Writer
This may sound really weird, but I just finished this enormous analysis of the midsection of GoF, which has all kinds of symbolic stuff about book 6, and I just wanted to point out to you the book titles they were searching through for information to help Harry survive the Second Task. All the book titles are a summary of what's going to happen in HBP. The second to last one Harry looked in was Powers You Never Knew You Had and What to Do with Them Now You’ve Wised Up. Thought you'd get a kick out of seeing that!
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Ann - Aug 25, 2004 8:14 pm (#162 of 183)
RPS, Nice discovery! The book titles are always great, but it hadn't occurred to me that they could be prophetic. (Although I suppose Percy's Prefects who have gained Power should have been a hint.)
I'm pretty sure that Harry's previously unused powers are going to be the main theme of HBP! (Hmmm... I wonder what you do do with them?)
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 26, 2004 8:46 am (#163 of 183)
Crazed Writer
Aside from ordinary school books, it appears that most of the book titles are symbolic (Somebody suggested quite a while ago, maybe on a different thread, that Lockhart's book titles represent something about each Harry Potter book, and that does seem to be true).
Actually, from all the analysis, it looks like the main theme of HBP might actually be uncovering who people truly are, and their backgrounds (like Harry, the Half-blood Prince, DD, Snape, James, Godric Gryffindor, Voldemort, various traitors, etc.). Should be really interesting! But Harry's powers will probably be part of his own journey of self-discovery (not to mention self-acceptance!).
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LooneyLuna - Aug 27, 2004 6:41 pm (#164 of 183)
I love the idea that Tom Riddle was Harry's imaginary friend growing up.
Wow, reading your comments just made me think of what Harry said to Dumbledore at the end of OotP, "But I don't!" said Harry in a strangled voice. "I haven't any powers he hasn't got. I couldn't fight the way he did tonight, I can't possess people or - kill them-"
I think Harry is in for a big surprise. Not only is he as powerful, I bet he is more powerful (due to the love factor).
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 27, 2004 6:50 pm (#165 of 183)
Crazed Writer
Well, Luna, he did beat Voldemort in that all-out battle of wills with the golden thread and the spell-beads sliding on it. I would say that's a pretty good indication that you're right.
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LooneyLuna - Aug 28, 2004 8:03 am (#166 of 183)
RPS - but Harry doesn't realize it yet.
Ah, I can't wait for HBP to come out.
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Saud - Sep 1, 2004 5:18 pm (#167 of 183)
Edited by Sep 1, 2004 5:20 pm
Tom Marvolo Riddle, a half-forgotten friend?
We know that T.M.Riddle is an anagram for LV. And well, when you see an anagram you say, hey I know about this I have heard of it but just can't remember where? Just like 'Oh lame saint'
Where did I hear that?? AHA! that famous painting!
I think he just couldn't figure out that he was mistaking an enemy for a friend.
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popkin - Sep 2, 2004 9:19 am (#168 of 183)
mother
What if "half-forgotten" is a clue in itself - something like the "half-blood prince". Maybe there is something about Tom Riddle that is half-forgotten - not necessarily to Harry, but to the wizarding world or to Tom himself?
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Madame Librarian - Sep 2, 2004 3:21 pm (#169 of 183)
Nice possibility, popkin. I suppose if we were good little researchers, we'd mine the books for all uses "half." The only other thing that comes to mind immediately is DD's half-moon glasses.
Ciao. Barb
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popkin - Sep 3, 2004 8:44 am (#170 of 183)
mother
Voldemort keeps saying that he should have remembered things - like the the ancient magic that kicked in when the AK backfired onto him. Maybe he's "half-forgotten" one very important thing.
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Agramante - Sep 6, 2004 12:02 pm (#171 of 183)
So Rowling keeps saying that more is yet to come on Riddle's birth, and his preparations against death, which impacted his experience at the Potters'. So this is shaky ground...I guess without many clues to go on, I'm not sure about any elaborate theories of family or personal connections between the Potters and Riddles (or any of their ancestors by different names). There are two basic explanations I like right now: (1) the failed curse transferred some memories or sense of identity from V to H; (2) the book itself was charmed, meant to draw its holder in. I've drawn a few parallels between Rowling's work and the Lord of the Rings, and I should probably stop (when I was a young boy Tolkien was my Rowling), but the Ring exerted a similar influence: it bound its holders to it. They would not give it up, and would hurt others to get it back. What clearer sign of this than Ginny ransacking the boys' room to find it again? The poor girl wasn't in control of herself! Harry was just older and, as we've seen in other situations, very resistant to mind control.
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popkin - Sep 6, 2004 12:15 pm (#172 of 183)
mother
Agramante, as fond as I am of the notion that Harry really has met and remembers Tom Riddle as a friend, your second explanation does make sense. It is the easiest answer to the riddle.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 6, 2004 1:02 pm (#173 of 183)
Crazed Writer
Both good answers!
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Phoenix song - Oct 6, 2004 9:58 am (#174 of 183)
Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
I'm more inclined to believe that Harry thinks of Tom Riddle as a "half-forgotten friend" because there is some sense of identity tied into Voldemort's transfer of powers to Harry. There is a sense of memory that perhaps exists within Harry's scar or within the powers themselves.
Since Voldemort has transformed himself to such a great extent I would think that Riddle would have been almost like a half-forgotten friend to Voldemort himself. It's almost like what Hagrid told Harry, "in seven years you won't even know yourself." Maybe given all of the magic that Voldemort has performed upon himself he hardly even remembers Riddle.
I don't think that Riddle was an imaginary friend, though. That's just a little bit too creepy for me! (Although it's interesting and fine for those who do believe that!)
Barbie
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Ann - Oct 6, 2004 7:17 pm (#175 of 183)
Phoenix Song, I like your idea that Riddle would seem like a half-forgotten friend to Voldemort--someone he used to be. I really think this is an indication that more got transferred to Harry than just Parseltongue. He got marked "as an equal," remember.
As for Voldemort's forgetfulness and obliviousness to Harry's strength, well, that can best be explained as a literary device. After all, if he were really as powerful and invincible as everyone in the wizarding world thinks he is, Harry would not have been able to defy him four times. But just as Harry is growing more impressive, so is Voldemort. (I mean, Quirrellmort was pretty shortsighted, wasn't he? And Riddle?)
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Saud - Oct 6, 2004 10:34 pm (#176 of 183)
How many times has JKR put in the prefix 'half' and made things complicated?
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Julie Aronson - Oct 11, 2004 7:43 pm (#177 of 183)
I like the idea of TMR as Harry's imaginary friend, but I think that was the "sheep's clothing" if you will. It seems to me that once the prophecy was spoken and Voldy identified the children in question, he spent a fair amount of time mentally probing them.
While it is possible that Neville remembers some of this, too, Harry's close encounter with the diary may have brought some of his distant and indistinct memories to the surface.
We can also note that throughout the series, Harry regains more and more of his early memories--not necessarily lost, but deeply buried. It will be interesting to see if more of the "Wicked Day" (thanks to Mary Stuart's Mordred book) comes to light in Harry's mind in books 6&7. The revelations therein could be breathtaking.
Julie
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Pine Fresh - Oct 20, 2004 8:05 am (#178 of 183)
Ok, tossing out a very ridiculous theory about why Harry might be familiar with the name Tom Riddle. Please feel free to poke holes:
What if LV was not using Peter Pettigrew as a spy during those months leading up to the showdown at Godric's Hollow but was possessing him bodily? By possessing Peter's body, LV would have been able to spend time in the Potters' company undetected. I have this creepy image of Uncle Peter/Lord Voldemort bouncing baby Harry on his knee, enchanting him with him fairy tales about an all-powerful wizard Tom Riddle (shiver).
Some points from the text supporting this theory:
In SS/PS, Harry is able to remember the green flash of the curse that was meant to kill him. So even though he was a little baby, maybe he can also dimly recall Uncle Peter telling him stories about Tom Riddle.
In SS/PS, LV is able to secret himself in Quirrell very easily, so we know he's quite accomplished at this possession trick.
In PoA, in the Shrieking Shack, Sirius accuses Peter of not sacrificing himself to protect the Potters, and Peter counters that he couldn't help it, that LV "had powers you couldn't believe" (or something like that).
In GoF, after the rebirthing ceremony, LV mentions that because Peter is supposed to be dead, it would have been unwise for him to possess Peter's body for traveling purposes. Perhaps this hints that LV had previously used Peter's body as a disguise.
Throughout the books, there's some suggestion that being possessed by LV changes a person for the worse. If Peter was possessed by LV for long periods of time, this might explain his becoming a turncoat; his own personality may have been so eroded by LV's cohabitation he could no longer muster his own values and beliefs.
We know that Peter was close to the Potters--they made him their Secret Keeper, and Harry saw him sitting between his parents in that photo of the Order that Moody showed him. He was obviously one of their closest friends, and they would have trusted him around their child.
Unanswered (unanswerable) questions raised by this ridiculous theory:
If LV had access to Harry through Peter, why didn't he try to kill him sooner?
Why would anyone make mention of the name Tom Riddle to the baby Harry?
Why wouldn't Peter have pleaded "Possession by Voldemort" when accused as a spy?
And I'm sure you've spotted many many other problems here.
Oh well! I was inspired for a moment. ; )
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Madame Librarian - Oct 20, 2004 2:08 pm (#179 of 183)
Pine Fresh, as a past source of many whacko theories myself, I am quite partial to them. I like yours--it's got some textual support and in the hands of crafty JKR, the flaws could be explained away.
The best thing about whacko theories is that they get us all thinking a little bit more creatively (see how nicely I avoided using "outside the box?"), and maybe someone arrives at a particularly brilliant insight. At the very least, they're good for a laugh or two.
But as to your specific concern that Harry would have no reason to remember the name T. M. Riddle, I suggest that maybe what he responds to is not exactly the name, but more the persona attached to the name that he might have encountered as a baby. If he probed baby Harry's mind, his identity as Riddle would be planted there as a memory/feeling.
Ciao. Barb
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Pine Fresh - Oct 21, 2004 6:33 am (#180 of 183)
Thanks for the kindness, understanding, and reassurance, Madam Librarian! Much appreciated!
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MickeyCee3948 - Oct 21, 2004 8:09 pm (#181 of 183)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I have expressed my theory in another thread that Harry's scar is tied to the reason that Voldemort did not die when he attacked Harry. And since we know that some of Voldemort's powers were inadvertantly transferred in the attack then does it not stand to reason that some of his memories would also transferred. Thus Harry remembers the name as Voldemort's memory not his.
Mikie
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Pine Fresh - Oct 22, 2004 6:25 am (#182 of 183)
Mickie--
Yes. I do think some of his memories could have been transferred to Harry. And I wonder if this transference of bits of himself into objects (the diary) and people (Harry) is one of the tactics he has used to cheat death. Like keeping backup disks of a manuscript--just in case your hard drive crashes . . .
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MickeyCee3948 - Oct 22, 2004 8:53 am (#183 of 183)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I have been wondering if the transference was more involuntary than that. Perhaps his essence or(dare I say)soul was transferred to Harry and this is the reason he didn't die. I am going to move this discussion over to the HBP thread since it probably needed to be discussed in that light.
Mikie
Back in business
And if Voldemort started acting like Harry, that would creep the DE too.
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Ann - Aug 2, 2004 6:47 pm (#152 of 183)
I think Harry's memory of having known Riddle is actually Voldemort's memory of having known Riddle--after all it was 50 years ago, which must seem like a long ago time to him. Is this memory perhaps the small thing in the CoS that will become a big thing in HBP? That Harry is sharing Voldemort's memories?
There is another possible example of Harry sharing one of Voldemort's memories in OotP, when he looks at the Easter egg Ginny has brought him and feels a lump in his throat, which he can't explain. This has been discussed on the Relationship thread, but it is always attributed to his allegedly blooming feelings for Ginny, or perhaps his gratitude to Mrs. Weasley for her motherly care. But it seems to me, when you have a lump in your throat, you usually tend to know why. This isn't my idea--it was posted by popkin, in her posting (#54--I don't know how to make the link) to the “What was Voldemort so afraid of in the Graveyard?” thread. She pointed out that this may have actually been an emotion that Voldemort felt. And given that JK has suggested we will hear more about Voldemort's birth and early life in HBP, it seems likely that this is how we will find out about it.
(What popkin said was: "They might know exactly what it was that made a hard lump rise in Harry's throat when he was looking at an Easter egg (OotP) - a particularly difficult childhood memory of Voldemort's?")
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zelmia - Aug 2, 2004 7:19 pm (#153 of 183)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
You don't necessarily "always" know why something moves you. How many times have you been watching the television and what you might normally think of as just another stupid advert comes on, but for some reason it really gets to you? I think we've all had this happen at least once in our lives.
I'm not discounting the possiblity that it was a distant connection with Voldemort's memories, but there were definitely more easily accessible emotions for Harry at that point, whose emotions were running pretty high throughout that particular stage of the saga.
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Ann - Aug 3, 2004 7:28 am (#154 of 183)
But an Easter egg?
An advertisement gets to us because the creators have cleverly included a lot of things that push our buttons. (They do a lot of research to be able to do this.) If you think about it, you can usually figure out what they are. I think that Harry's puzzled reaction to his feelings about the egg shows that it has pushed Voldemort's buttons, not his own. It seems very similar to his puzzlement over the 'half-forgotten friend'. And it's neat to think that Voldemort might have an emotional reaction to something like an Easter egg. Or am I making this up?
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Some Guy - Aug 20, 2004 12:32 am (#155 of 183)
COS, Tom Riddle speaks of Salazar Slytherins "noble work". This has intrigued me the most. What were the REAL intentions of Salazar Slytherin? Did Salazar advocate a muggle/mud blood genoicide similar to what Lord Voldemort practices, or did Salazar want to kill all of the Gryyfindors and take over the school? The following statement by Tom Riddle seems significant to me:
Lord Voldemort: "I decided to leave behind a diary, preserving my 16 year old self in its pages, so that one day, with luck, I would be able to lead another in my foot steps and finish Salazar Slytherins noble work"
Harry: "Well you haven't finished it. No one has died this time, not even the cat. In a few hours the mandrake draft will be ready, and everyone that was petrified will be all right again."
Lord Voldemort: "Haven't I already told you that killing mud bloods doesn't matter to me any more. For many months now, my new target has been you (Harry)."
I believe the above makes a strong case for my following theory:
Gryyfindor and Slytherin have fought a continuous battle for control of Hogwarts through out the ages. This "war" will only end when the last heir, of either, house is dead. I personally feel that the phoenix tail core found in the "brother" wands of Voldemort and Harry symbolize the renewing battle between Slytherin and Gryyfindor. Is this why Harry seems to remember Tom as a long lost friend? His Gryyfindor blood (assumption)?
If you guys have any idea why the other 3 founders did not remove Salazar from Hogwarts let me know. I also wonder why Salazar did not start his own school.
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Madame Librarian - Aug 20, 2004 8:39 am (#156 of 183)
Some Guy, these are all excellent questions, and just as apt for the new thread (it's "graduated" to a regular slot now) on the four founders specifically. Did you already double post? If not, maybe that would be a good idea.
Ciao. Barb
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popkin - Aug 20, 2004 3:35 pm (#157 of 183)
mother
Ann, that Easter egg was to me one of the more interesting things in OotP. I figured LV is frequently looking at the world through Harry's eyes, and at that moment was unprepared for the emotional impact of a memory brought on by that egg, and so let him emotions leak into Harry's consciousness. I want to know what it was that the egg made Voldemort remember.
At some point, I think Harry will be able to take advantage of their connection, and, like Voldemort now does to him, will purposely break into Voldemort's thoughts and look through his eyes into Voldemort's world.
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Madame Kulich - Aug 20, 2004 8:32 pm (#158 of 183)
What Easter egg? How can I get to it?
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Ann - Aug 20, 2004 8:49 pm (#159 of 183)
It is in the books, not a DVD (we're talking chocolate Easter Egg with candy inside). OotP, the library scene with Ginny soon after Harry has seen Snape's worst memory in the pensieve. I'm not sure it is Voldemort actively looking through Harry's eyes; he's not doing that in CoS when Harry has the same impossible memories of the names "Tom Riddle." I think Voldemort's acquired memories, as well as his inborn talents, were copied into to Harry along with the curse scar.
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Parrothead Patronus - Aug 24, 2004 9:59 pm (#160 of 183)
The weather is here.....wish you were beautiful
This is just a thought but, maby Tom Riddle was a long lost friend of Harry's. His imaginary friend. Harry was lonely as a child and didn't have any real friends. In this case it's not really his imagination manifesting its self but Voldy/Tom's memories as a child. The significance of this would be that this would be the first time the link between Harry and Voldy emerges. I believe stored deep down in Harry is a whole lot of power that is just waiting to come out thanks to his "old friend Tom". I'm positive that Voldy transferred more powers to Harry than we've seen so far. I think something is going to happen in the last two books, maby something hormonal, thats going to lets these powers out.
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 25, 2004 6:03 pm (#161 of 183)
Crazed Writer
This may sound really weird, but I just finished this enormous analysis of the midsection of GoF, which has all kinds of symbolic stuff about book 6, and I just wanted to point out to you the book titles they were searching through for information to help Harry survive the Second Task. All the book titles are a summary of what's going to happen in HBP. The second to last one Harry looked in was Powers You Never Knew You Had and What to Do with Them Now You’ve Wised Up. Thought you'd get a kick out of seeing that!
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Ann - Aug 25, 2004 8:14 pm (#162 of 183)
RPS, Nice discovery! The book titles are always great, but it hadn't occurred to me that they could be prophetic. (Although I suppose Percy's Prefects who have gained Power should have been a hint.)
I'm pretty sure that Harry's previously unused powers are going to be the main theme of HBP! (Hmmm... I wonder what you do do with them?)
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 26, 2004 8:46 am (#163 of 183)
Crazed Writer
Aside from ordinary school books, it appears that most of the book titles are symbolic (Somebody suggested quite a while ago, maybe on a different thread, that Lockhart's book titles represent something about each Harry Potter book, and that does seem to be true).
Actually, from all the analysis, it looks like the main theme of HBP might actually be uncovering who people truly are, and their backgrounds (like Harry, the Half-blood Prince, DD, Snape, James, Godric Gryffindor, Voldemort, various traitors, etc.). Should be really interesting! But Harry's powers will probably be part of his own journey of self-discovery (not to mention self-acceptance!).
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LooneyLuna - Aug 27, 2004 6:41 pm (#164 of 183)
I love the idea that Tom Riddle was Harry's imaginary friend growing up.
Wow, reading your comments just made me think of what Harry said to Dumbledore at the end of OotP, "But I don't!" said Harry in a strangled voice. "I haven't any powers he hasn't got. I couldn't fight the way he did tonight, I can't possess people or - kill them-"
I think Harry is in for a big surprise. Not only is he as powerful, I bet he is more powerful (due to the love factor).
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Round Pink Spider - Aug 27, 2004 6:50 pm (#165 of 183)
Crazed Writer
Well, Luna, he did beat Voldemort in that all-out battle of wills with the golden thread and the spell-beads sliding on it. I would say that's a pretty good indication that you're right.
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LooneyLuna - Aug 28, 2004 8:03 am (#166 of 183)
RPS - but Harry doesn't realize it yet.
Ah, I can't wait for HBP to come out.
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Saud - Sep 1, 2004 5:18 pm (#167 of 183)
Edited by Sep 1, 2004 5:20 pm
Tom Marvolo Riddle, a half-forgotten friend?
We know that T.M.Riddle is an anagram for LV. And well, when you see an anagram you say, hey I know about this I have heard of it but just can't remember where? Just like 'Oh lame saint'
Where did I hear that?? AHA! that famous painting!
I think he just couldn't figure out that he was mistaking an enemy for a friend.
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popkin - Sep 2, 2004 9:19 am (#168 of 183)
mother
What if "half-forgotten" is a clue in itself - something like the "half-blood prince". Maybe there is something about Tom Riddle that is half-forgotten - not necessarily to Harry, but to the wizarding world or to Tom himself?
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Madame Librarian - Sep 2, 2004 3:21 pm (#169 of 183)
Nice possibility, popkin. I suppose if we were good little researchers, we'd mine the books for all uses "half." The only other thing that comes to mind immediately is DD's half-moon glasses.
Ciao. Barb
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popkin - Sep 3, 2004 8:44 am (#170 of 183)
mother
Voldemort keeps saying that he should have remembered things - like the the ancient magic that kicked in when the AK backfired onto him. Maybe he's "half-forgotten" one very important thing.
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Agramante - Sep 6, 2004 12:02 pm (#171 of 183)
So Rowling keeps saying that more is yet to come on Riddle's birth, and his preparations against death, which impacted his experience at the Potters'. So this is shaky ground...I guess without many clues to go on, I'm not sure about any elaborate theories of family or personal connections between the Potters and Riddles (or any of their ancestors by different names). There are two basic explanations I like right now: (1) the failed curse transferred some memories or sense of identity from V to H; (2) the book itself was charmed, meant to draw its holder in. I've drawn a few parallels between Rowling's work and the Lord of the Rings, and I should probably stop (when I was a young boy Tolkien was my Rowling), but the Ring exerted a similar influence: it bound its holders to it. They would not give it up, and would hurt others to get it back. What clearer sign of this than Ginny ransacking the boys' room to find it again? The poor girl wasn't in control of herself! Harry was just older and, as we've seen in other situations, very resistant to mind control.
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popkin - Sep 6, 2004 12:15 pm (#172 of 183)
mother
Agramante, as fond as I am of the notion that Harry really has met and remembers Tom Riddle as a friend, your second explanation does make sense. It is the easiest answer to the riddle.
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Round Pink Spider - Sep 6, 2004 1:02 pm (#173 of 183)
Crazed Writer
Both good answers!
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Phoenix song - Oct 6, 2004 9:58 am (#174 of 183)
Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
I'm more inclined to believe that Harry thinks of Tom Riddle as a "half-forgotten friend" because there is some sense of identity tied into Voldemort's transfer of powers to Harry. There is a sense of memory that perhaps exists within Harry's scar or within the powers themselves.
Since Voldemort has transformed himself to such a great extent I would think that Riddle would have been almost like a half-forgotten friend to Voldemort himself. It's almost like what Hagrid told Harry, "in seven years you won't even know yourself." Maybe given all of the magic that Voldemort has performed upon himself he hardly even remembers Riddle.
I don't think that Riddle was an imaginary friend, though. That's just a little bit too creepy for me! (Although it's interesting and fine for those who do believe that!)
Barbie
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Ann - Oct 6, 2004 7:17 pm (#175 of 183)
Phoenix Song, I like your idea that Riddle would seem like a half-forgotten friend to Voldemort--someone he used to be. I really think this is an indication that more got transferred to Harry than just Parseltongue. He got marked "as an equal," remember.
As for Voldemort's forgetfulness and obliviousness to Harry's strength, well, that can best be explained as a literary device. After all, if he were really as powerful and invincible as everyone in the wizarding world thinks he is, Harry would not have been able to defy him four times. But just as Harry is growing more impressive, so is Voldemort. (I mean, Quirrellmort was pretty shortsighted, wasn't he? And Riddle?)
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Saud - Oct 6, 2004 10:34 pm (#176 of 183)
How many times has JKR put in the prefix 'half' and made things complicated?
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Julie Aronson - Oct 11, 2004 7:43 pm (#177 of 183)
I like the idea of TMR as Harry's imaginary friend, but I think that was the "sheep's clothing" if you will. It seems to me that once the prophecy was spoken and Voldy identified the children in question, he spent a fair amount of time mentally probing them.
While it is possible that Neville remembers some of this, too, Harry's close encounter with the diary may have brought some of his distant and indistinct memories to the surface.
We can also note that throughout the series, Harry regains more and more of his early memories--not necessarily lost, but deeply buried. It will be interesting to see if more of the "Wicked Day" (thanks to Mary Stuart's Mordred book) comes to light in Harry's mind in books 6&7. The revelations therein could be breathtaking.
Julie
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Pine Fresh - Oct 20, 2004 8:05 am (#178 of 183)
Ok, tossing out a very ridiculous theory about why Harry might be familiar with the name Tom Riddle. Please feel free to poke holes:
What if LV was not using Peter Pettigrew as a spy during those months leading up to the showdown at Godric's Hollow but was possessing him bodily? By possessing Peter's body, LV would have been able to spend time in the Potters' company undetected. I have this creepy image of Uncle Peter/Lord Voldemort bouncing baby Harry on his knee, enchanting him with him fairy tales about an all-powerful wizard Tom Riddle (shiver).
Some points from the text supporting this theory:
In SS/PS, Harry is able to remember the green flash of the curse that was meant to kill him. So even though he was a little baby, maybe he can also dimly recall Uncle Peter telling him stories about Tom Riddle.
In SS/PS, LV is able to secret himself in Quirrell very easily, so we know he's quite accomplished at this possession trick.
In PoA, in the Shrieking Shack, Sirius accuses Peter of not sacrificing himself to protect the Potters, and Peter counters that he couldn't help it, that LV "had powers you couldn't believe" (or something like that).
In GoF, after the rebirthing ceremony, LV mentions that because Peter is supposed to be dead, it would have been unwise for him to possess Peter's body for traveling purposes. Perhaps this hints that LV had previously used Peter's body as a disguise.
Throughout the books, there's some suggestion that being possessed by LV changes a person for the worse. If Peter was possessed by LV for long periods of time, this might explain his becoming a turncoat; his own personality may have been so eroded by LV's cohabitation he could no longer muster his own values and beliefs.
We know that Peter was close to the Potters--they made him their Secret Keeper, and Harry saw him sitting between his parents in that photo of the Order that Moody showed him. He was obviously one of their closest friends, and they would have trusted him around their child.
Unanswered (unanswerable) questions raised by this ridiculous theory:
If LV had access to Harry through Peter, why didn't he try to kill him sooner?
Why would anyone make mention of the name Tom Riddle to the baby Harry?
Why wouldn't Peter have pleaded "Possession by Voldemort" when accused as a spy?
And I'm sure you've spotted many many other problems here.
Oh well! I was inspired for a moment. ; )
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Madame Librarian - Oct 20, 2004 2:08 pm (#179 of 183)
Pine Fresh, as a past source of many whacko theories myself, I am quite partial to them. I like yours--it's got some textual support and in the hands of crafty JKR, the flaws could be explained away.
The best thing about whacko theories is that they get us all thinking a little bit more creatively (see how nicely I avoided using "outside the box?"), and maybe someone arrives at a particularly brilliant insight. At the very least, they're good for a laugh or two.
But as to your specific concern that Harry would have no reason to remember the name T. M. Riddle, I suggest that maybe what he responds to is not exactly the name, but more the persona attached to the name that he might have encountered as a baby. If he probed baby Harry's mind, his identity as Riddle would be planted there as a memory/feeling.
Ciao. Barb
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Pine Fresh - Oct 21, 2004 6:33 am (#180 of 183)
Thanks for the kindness, understanding, and reassurance, Madam Librarian! Much appreciated!
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MickeyCee3948 - Oct 21, 2004 8:09 pm (#181 of 183)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I have expressed my theory in another thread that Harry's scar is tied to the reason that Voldemort did not die when he attacked Harry. And since we know that some of Voldemort's powers were inadvertantly transferred in the attack then does it not stand to reason that some of his memories would also transferred. Thus Harry remembers the name as Voldemort's memory not his.
Mikie
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Pine Fresh - Oct 22, 2004 6:25 am (#182 of 183)
Mickie--
Yes. I do think some of his memories could have been transferred to Harry. And I wonder if this transference of bits of himself into objects (the diary) and people (Harry) is one of the tactics he has used to cheat death. Like keeping backup disks of a manuscript--just in case your hard drive crashes . . .
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MickeyCee3948 - Oct 22, 2004 8:53 am (#183 of 183)
Avatar courtesy of Gwen
I have been wondering if the transference was more involuntary than that. Perhaps his essence or(dare I say)soul was transferred to Harry and this is the reason he didn't die. I am going to move this discussion over to the HBP thread since it probably needed to be discussed in that light.
Mikie
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