The heir of Gryffindor

The heir of Gryffindor

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. At that time, this thread was still set in the "Archived Thread to be Worked" folder of the WC forum. Elanor

oz grail - Apr 4, 2004 8:19 am
Edited by Kip Carter Jan 12, 2006 12:22 pm
I hope that you remember the story of Tom Marvolo Riddle – He is the heir of Slytherin. I assume that you thought, and not once, that there are more heirs like Tom, heirs of Helga Hufflepuff , Godric Gryffindor and Rowena Ravenclaw. My theory claims that it has ound the heirs of Godric Gryffindor.

We all know that the mascots and colors of the houses were not chosen by mistake. We know that Slytherin liked snakes and could talk to them, therefore the mascot is a snake. Another thing is the color of the Avada Kedavra curse – green , like one of the Slytherin house colors. Probably it is not a coincidence. According to these samples we can assume that the house colors of Gryffindor were chosen for a reason.

What characters if so is related to the red and gold colors of Gryffindor? The first family that comes into my mind when you talk about the red color are the Weasleys. Every one of the Weasleys without exception is a redhead (the characters that are mentioned in the books anyway). Since we are talking about a family with lots of children this is almost a miracle that all of them redheads (I don’t think that a quote is necessary because the Weasley's red hair is mentioned again and again through out the books , the red hair became a trademark for all the weasleys. Draco Malfoy recognized Ron as a Weasley because of his hair. ).

So maybe the red color was given to the house because of Godric's red hair color? We know that hair can be a magical thing that passes from father to son, like Harry's untidy hair (James used to mess it up).

The gold color creates an Absurd – the weasleys have no gold ! In this case its completely the opposite!

There are more clues that my theory is true –

Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire – page 154 (English Version) :

"'He’s really excited!’ said Colin, practically bouncing up and down in his seat. ‘I just hope he’s a Gryffindor! Keep your fingers crossed, eh, Harry?’ ‘er - yeah, all right,’ said Harry. He turned back to Hermione, Ron and nearly Headless Nick. ‘brothers and sisters usually go in the same houses, don’t they?’ he said. He was judging by the Weasleys, all seven of whome had been put into gryffindor. ‘oh, not necessarily,’ said Hermione. ‘paravati patil’s twin’s in ravenclaw, and they’re identical, you’d think they’d be together, wouldn’t you?’”

The point in these things is to show that it is not a coincidence that all of the weasleys are in Gryffindor. You would have expect at least one of them to be in another house, maybe Percy because his behavior in the fifth book is completely ungryffindorish.

The makers of the first movie cut the part in the train when Ron tells Harry that all of his family were and are in Gryffindor. But they added a bigger clue that all of them are gryffindors. When Ron puts on the sorting hat it says – "Another Weasley ah? If so I think it will be sorted into – GRYFFINDOR!". If we will judge by the movie we can see that the sorting hat is not looking at Ron's character, its only noticing that he is a weasley and sorting him into Gryffindor.

Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix – Page 105 (English Version) :

“’the pure blood families are all interrelated,’ said sirius. ‘if you’re only going to let your sons and daughters marry pure-bloods your choice is very limited; there are hardly any of us left. Molly and I are cousins by marriage and arthur’s something like my second cousin once removed. But ther’s no point looking for them on here - if ever a family was a bunch of blood traitors it’s the weasleys’"

The weasleys are a pure blood family, and if so there is a chance that they are related to a wizard that lived a few centuries ago.

That is my theory, hope you will except it or at least criticize it. Thank you for reading till here!

Oz Grail

huge thank to Cabbage (Cruvi ^^) for translating everything I wrote to English!

Chemyst - Apr 4, 2004 9:53 am (#1 of 180)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
Some of the clues you cite are pretty wobbly and won't stand on their own, but I do like the idea that the heirs of the houses will in some way work together and resolve the problems caused by the split between their ancestors. It is a great literary plot device! And the Sorting Hat's song in OP supports the idea that this is what needs to happen. The sorting hat is so old and threadbare, it would be nice if he could retire and not have to split the students into rival groups anymore. If this is going to occur in book seven, we should get more info on Helga Hufflepuff and Rowena Ravenclaw's descendants in book six.

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I Am Used Vlad - Apr 4, 2004 11:46 am (#2 of 180)
I Am Almighty!
but I do like the idea that the heirs of the houses will in some way work together and resolve the problems caused by the split between their ancestors- Chemyst

The problem with this is that Voldemort is the heir of Slytherin.

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Denise P. - Apr 4, 2004 11:56 am (#3 of 180)
Ravenclaw Pony
I know that this has been discussed before, the Heir of Gryffindor theory, here and on other Forums. I really don't think we are going to see it confirmed or denied. Remember Chamber of Secrets? Been there, done that, got the t-shirt already on the Heir idea. I agree, there are things that could be taken as pointing to Harry as the Heir or the Weasleys but I just don't think JKR is going to be redundant and re-do that theme again.

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Hem Hem - Apr 4, 2004 8:53 pm (#4 of 180)
I really don't think we are going to see it confirmed or denied.

Very true, although by virtue of the fact that it hasn't been denied, many people probably hold as though it has been confirmed.

from the March 3rd chat interview:
Jami: Is Harry related to Godric Gryffindor? JK Rowling replies -> People are always wondering who Harry might be related to. Maybe he is

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Chemyst - Apr 4, 2004 10:17 pm (#5 of 180)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
The problem with this is that Voldemort is the heir of Slytherin. - nimrod

True. However, having plot elements working together does not necessarily mean they're holding hands and playing nicely. Some of the best stories have plots where the villain intended a selfish or destructive evil, but it turned out for good. (Gollum's action in Lord of the Rings is an example.) The precedent has already been set in PS/SS where Voldemort intended to destroy baby Potter but ended up giving him a portion of power. I don't think stepping up the scale until it applies to the entire wizard world instead of affecting just one small boy would be redundant.

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Tomoé - Apr 4, 2004 11:07 pm (#6 of 180)
Back in business
Since Godric Gryffindor lived in the 11th century and since all the pure-blood family are inter-related, if anyone in the Wizarding World is his descendant, then all of them are and many time each. That kind of tightly closely knit society doesn't have a family tree, it have a family thorn.

Let's say there's a average of three generations a century from Gryffindor to Harry, that will make a 30 storey family tree. In Godric's storey, their will be 536,807,912 names. You read it right, 500 millions. Half of them should be muggles, as Lily was muggle-born, there will then be around 268,435,456 Wizard names. If Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff, Gryffindor and Slytherin had descendants, every wizard attached to the old Wizard families will see each of them in their family, a couple of thousand times.

How Tom Riddle could be the heir of Slytherin then? Maybe Slytherin was less prolific than the others, maybe Tom's mother's maiden name was Slytherin or Slytherin is half of Tom's great x27 grandfathers.

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S.E. Jones - Apr 4, 2004 11:54 pm (#7 of 180)
Let it snow!
It doesn't really work that way, though. To be considered any kind of heir you usually have to be able to trance your ancestry along particular lines. In other words, only certain family connections count. There can be thousands of people descended from any one given person in history, but only a few could be their heirs because they can trace back along the right lines. Usually things are passed down father to first born son, even if you have seven children, only that first born's family can really call themselves the "heirs" of your estate. Inheritance only jumped to daughters in the absense of sons (this rule also changed depending on location, social rank, and time period, unfortunately). So, if someone in the wizarding world could trace certain lines back to Godric Gryffindor, even if all the other purebloods could trace some ancestry back to him, they would still be his heirs in the appropriate sense..... This would also explain how Tom Riddle was considered the Heir of Slytherin, his mother may have been able to make such connections, i.e. she had the appropriate lines, and thus was the heir before him....

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Catherine - Apr 5, 2004 4:42 am (#8 of 180)
Canon Seeker
Thanks for the lucid and logical discussion, S.E. Jones. I think you hit it exactly right.

I realized, while you discussed Voldemort as heir of Slytherin and his connections, that we don't really know who Tom Riddle's mother was--neither her first or last name. I know that Voldemort was named after his grandfather (hence the "Marvolo"), but that's it.

I wish I could have my hands on the Wizarding Genealogy book in Grimmauld Place! It would be very interesting to know more how the wizards in our story might be connected to Voldemort, and to each other

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Padfoot - Apr 5, 2004 3:42 pm (#9 of 180)
I have never understood the heir of Slytherin logic. To me, there would be more than one heir. Is Voldy's mom an heir too before she died? If it does pass through the male line, then Voldy's grandfather is the heir? What if he had a brother, even a twin brother! Who would be the heir then? Or would they both be? I've been rereading what S.E. Jones wrote. Maybe it's been too long of a day for me, but I am still confused.

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Catherine - Apr 5, 2004 3:52 pm (#10 of 180)
Canon Seeker
I can't speak for S.E.Jones, but my reading of that post is that it concerns the law of primogeniture, where an estate passes to the legitimately born eldest son of the family. It was a way of consolidating land, money, and influence, instead of dividing (hence weakening) the assets.

When claiming to be a "direct' descendant, certain conditions must be met. You mention twins; the first male twin would be the heir. One cannot usually claim a "direct descent" if one is illegitmate, for example, or if one claims the descent through a marriage or through an uncle.

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Chemyst - Apr 5, 2004 3:56 pm (#11 of 180)
"Organizing is what you do before you do something, so that when you do it, it is not all mixed up." A.A. Milne
I really don't believe the story is headed this direction, but...

Now that Voldie has a new body, what is to stop him from procreating? If he works fast, there is still time before the end of year six. Oh, nevermind.

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vball man - Apr 5, 2004 4:43 pm (#12 of 180)
He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
I've long wondered if Tom was "heir of Slytherin" in some way other than being related. Maybe: Vol explains his powers: "I found an ancient text. It was written by Salazaar himself. It told of a potion that would make me his true heir. I only needed some of his blood. It took me 3 years, but I found it - with the help of that fool Grindelwald. Dumbledore saw the difference in me immediately. But no one else did. All the other professors and students went around the school not even knowing they were miserable flies compared with me!" BWhaaa BWhaaha!

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urzafyffe - Apr 5, 2004 5:16 pm (#13 of 180)
Well there is always, Bella but she is married.

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hopping hessian - Apr 5, 2004 5:48 pm (#14 of 180)
"Extrodinary claims require extrordinary proof" -Bill Nye
Only in name, I think. Though she might have affection for her husband, in her twisted kind of way.

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urzafyffe - Apr 5, 2004 6:13 pm (#15 of 180)
I can just see it now DL killing Rodolphus just so he can have Bella for himself.

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Hem Hem - Apr 5, 2004 6:32 pm (#16 of 180)
[from the March 4th online chat:] Harry: Has Voldermort any children
JK Rowling replies -> No. Voldemort as a father... now that's not a nice thought.

I know that it doesn't exactly rule out what you guys are talking about, but it at least gives us something to work off of. Anyways, none of us were really pondering this question seriously, were we?

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urzafyffe - Apr 5, 2004 6:55 pm (#17 of 180)
Let me think, Oh yeah and I just saw a pig flew by my window.

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DJ Evans - Apr 5, 2004 7:39 pm (#18 of 180)
Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
Oh, I don't know--wouldn't have Umbridge made Voldemort the "prefect" daughter? Just think of the family get togethers that those two would have!!!! hee hee

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S.E. Jones - Apr 5, 2004 10:27 pm (#19 of 180)
Let it snow!
padfoot: I have never understood the heir of Slytherin logic. To me, there would be more than one heir. Is Voldy's mom an heir too before she died? If it does pass through the male line, then Voldy's grandfather is the heir? What if he had a brother, even a twin brother! Who would be the heir then? Or would they both be? I've been rereading what S.E. Jones wrote. Maybe it's been too long of a day for me, but I am still confused.

Catherine Allen: .....my reading of that post is that it concerns the law of primogeniture, where an estate passes to the legitimately born eldest son of the family......When claiming to be a "direct' descendant, certain conditions must be met.

Yeah, Catherine, that's what I was referring to. Only certain lines on a family tree count when deciding who is an "heir" to an estate. This is why there aren't more heirs; it doesn't matter if you are descended from someone, only if you have the right family connections to them. So, yes, Tom's grandfather was the heir and thus his eldest son would have been as well. In the case that he didn't have an eldest son, and, presumably, didn't have a brother, his daughter would then take the title of heir (which seems to be what happened). The position would then go back to her eldest son (Tom) and then to his eldest son and so on until they hit another spot where there were no other males to inherit in which case it would again go to a daughter and the line would continue.... So, the heirs were Grandfather Marvolo, then Mom Riddle, then Tom....

To give another example of how this would work, if the Weasleys had some family inheritance to pass on, Bill would be considered Arthur's heir because he is the eldest son. If Bill and Charlie both had sons, Bill's son would be considered Arthur's heir because Bill is the eldest son while Charlie's son would only be considered Arthur's descendant because Charlie was a younger son.... Ginny, as a daughter, could only be considered an inheriting heir if sons 1-6 died without producing heirs. Her son could inherit if sons 1-6 didn't have any heirs and would inherit from one of Ginny's brothers (we'll assume nothing happens to Bill and say they inherit from Bill)....

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Czarina - Apr 6, 2004 4:46 am (#20 of 180)
That could explain why Arthur is so poor -- he was one of the younger Weasley sons of his generation? Pure speculation, but I think that the Weasley clan has always been more prolific than other families. They seemed to have acquired a reputation beyond what you would expect one family: for example "they all have red hair and more children than they can afford." -- This reads that they ALL have more children than they can afford, perhaps indicating that at other points in time, there were many other Weasleys. Were they killed by Voldemort? Hmm.

Back on topic.

We know Slytherin designated an heir for himself in order so that heir could someday come back and open the Chamber of Secrets. It is unclear whether this is an entirely biological connection, but Dumbledore's remarks seem to sound to that effect: "the last remaining descendant of Salazar Slytherin." Did Gryffindor even DESIGNATE an heir? It could be anyone, even if he did.

If Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw had heirs, would their inheritance pass perhaps through the female line? That would be interesting.

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Madame Librarian - Apr 6, 2004 5:13 am (#21 of 180)
And, let's not forget that whole brouhaha over the supposed error/typo where in some early editions of the first book it said "last remaining ancestor" not descendant. JKR has not clearly stated that that's a true error. So, we have lots of confuddlement about this whole thing--

Does "heir" mean biological only? Could Salazar have chosen a like-thinking sort of wizard who had the power and the impulse to pursue the goals that Slytherin hoped for?

Is there some arcane and twisty reverse time thing going on?

Getting back to this thread's topic--Gryffindor's heir. If it's Harry, does that mean that, surely, we will hear more about the Potter line (as it should trace back to Godric's time)? Or, are we again talking a philosophical heir, not biological?

Because of the transfer of Voldie's powers from the failed AK, is Harry now somehow the heir of both founders?

Gaaa! So many questions!

Ciao. Barb

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S.E. Jones - Apr 6, 2004 8:10 am (#22 of 180)
Let it snow!
Mad. Lib: Is there some arcane and twisty reverse time thing going on?

I don't think there is any time warp going on here, Barb. Yes, JKR called the "ancestor" thing a deliberate error but then she said it was supposed to be descendant (I added the underline):

Scholastic #2, October 16, 2000:
Q: Harry Potter for grownups again! Is Voldemort the last remaining ancestor of Slytherin, or the last remaining descendent of Slytherin?
A: Ah, you spotted the deliberate error. Yes, it should read "descendent." That's been changed in subsequent editions. (Keep hold of the "ancestor" one, maybe it'll be valuable one day!)

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firebird - Apr 6, 2004 10:26 am (#23 of 180)
Weird. Deliberate error? What the heck does that mean and if she actually DID mean 'ancestor', how can she possibly reconcile that in the sixth and fifth books without some weird time warp? And wasn't DD the one who said that 'the last remaining ancestor'? How would he know?

Going back to the many heirs question, it is possible that as Sirius was 'the last of the Blacks' that Volde was 'the last of the Slytherins'... Meaning that as well as having the 'heir' distinction passed on through certain lines (firstborn son, no blood traitors), not many of them survived to produce heirs. Hardly any, in fact.

My understanding while reading it was that the 'heir' distinction could be passed on through blood, perhaps the magical power in the blood has some sort of consciousness, and like destiny, knows in which direction it's going. Does that make sense?

If only the first-born son gets the title of heir, then Ron can't possibly be Gryffindor's heir, but perhaps he could be if it was decided (by some enigmatic magical process) that he was the most fit to carry the title out of the seven children. Similarly if one discriminated -as pure-blood families often did- on inheritance through maintaining the purity of the descendant's blood, then Voldie should not be Salazar's heir, the line would have died with his mother. However, he was probably judged fit because of his intelligence and ambition and other Slytherinesque qualities and so became the heir.

Even if she recycled the overused heir idea -which I don't think is likely- I don't think JKR would bring Rowena's and Helga's heirs into this. She's effectively ignored the other two houses on really important matters like this. If Ron is Gryffindor's heir, which I think is possible, it wouldn't be explicitly stated, but maybe there would some cryptic statement about it in the next books, not some huge revelation. Personally I don't think she'll tell us, though she'd leave room for theories such as this.

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Chris. - Apr 6, 2004 10:31 am (#24 of 180)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Dumbledore, being the All-knowing wizard , would probably know about Voldemort's ancestory. If Harry was the Heir of Gryffindor, he would want to see if Voldie was the Heir of Slyth.

I like your idea about Heirs not just being about blood-status, but about magical abilities as well.

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S.E. Jones - Apr 6, 2004 2:51 pm (#25 of 180)
Let it snow!
firebird: Deliberate error? What the heck does that mean and if she actually DID mean 'ancestor', how can she possibly reconcile that in the sixth and fifth books without some weird time warp?

Apparently she meant 'descendant' not 'ancestor'...so no need for a time warp.....

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prof sprout - Apr 7, 2004 7:21 am (#26 of 180)
Uh oh I'm hearing, Voldemort is Salazar Slytherin. )

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Blast - Apr 7, 2004 8:05 am (#27 of 180)
I think I'm back!
This was discussed on a different thread but wouldn't the sorting hat know who was decended from whom? It has been at Hogwarts from the beginning and would know who your parents and ancestors were. Also is blood really important? Just because you are related to one of the founding members does not automatically make you like them. It is the choices you make that become who you are. Look at Sirius, he came from a family of Slytherins and he rejected the whole blood predgidous dogma. Look at real life, Charles the second of England left no legal heirs, but if I'm not mistaken he had several illegitamit children. A decendent from this union might be closer in blood line to the throne of England than the current monarchs, but it is the current monarchs that rule. In the Wizarding World a person could be the Heir of Ravenclaw but be in Hufflepuff.

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prof sprout - Apr 7, 2004 8:10 am (#28 of 180)
I was joking around with the So in so IS so in so theories. How Voldemort is really Salazar Slytherin. I'm sorry for any confusion. )

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Hem Hem - Apr 7, 2004 11:52 pm (#29 of 180)
Remember that with the House of Black, denying the ideals of the family made a person lose his heirship. Perhaps there are other descendents of Slytherin that were "burned off the tapestry," so to speaqk, and are therefore not technically heirs anymore.

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Tom Vitleysa - Apr 8, 2004 7:40 am (#30 of 180)
Another important aspect of an heir is that he or she claim their inheritance. LV did this by opening the CS. That's what make him the heir of Slytherin. What else is important about this title? What importance would there be in being the heir of one of the other founders? I can't imagine JKR placing much importance on a hero's ancient blood-lines. Doesn't that go against the tone of the books? I feel that LV's emphasis on being a descendant of Slytherin is an example of someone proving there importance with irrelevant information rather than letting the person that they are speak for itself.

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S.E. Jones - Apr 8, 2004 7:57 am (#31 of 180)
Let it snow!
The only importance I can see in showing someone being the heir of one of the other houses would be to show Gryffindor's heir because, if Harry were the "Heir of Gryffindor", then he and Voldemort would be continuing the fight that Godric and Salazar started over a thousand years ago and finally putting it to rest with one's victory over the other (i.e. Harry defeating Slytherin's heir and breaking the tradition of pureblood mania in the wizarding world).... This is why I don't think we'll see Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff's heirs, because they weren't in on the original fight.....

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Blast - Apr 9, 2004 10:10 am (#32 of 180)
I think I'm back!
Something just hit me as funny. What if Draco was heir to Gryffendor. This would be pretty ironic now wouldn't it.

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dobbyiscool - Apr 9, 2004 10:20 am (#33 of 180)
Whatever women do they must do twice as well as men to be thought half as good. Luckily this is not difficult. --Charlotte Whitton
Yeah, I bet his parents would be devistated to find out they where desendents of Godric Gryffendor!

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DJ Evans - Apr 9, 2004 2:36 pm (#34 of 180)
Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
Wonder if a person could be the heir to the two houses? That would be a unique way to "unite" the houses, for sure!!!!

Later, deb

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popkin - Apr 16, 2004 8:37 pm (#35 of 180)
mother
Edited by Apr 16, 2004 8:40 pm
DJ, I have often wondered if Harry could be heir to all four houses. The only sticking point is that Dumbledore said that Tom was the last remaining ancestor/descendant of Slytherin.

Once Tom dies, does the Slytherin blood line die with him, or does the blood line rerout itself through a less direct line of descendants? Or, will a hidden heir turn up? Did Tom believe that Harry would usurp power from him by proving that he, Harry, was actually a more direct descendant of Slytherin?

As Hem Hem pointed out, the records of descendants may not be all that accurate. Surely the Malfoys would be as selective as Mrs. Black about who they'd claim as relatives. The Weasley's aren't too obsessed with their blood line. Do they have more accurate records? Or, have they not kept records - just photo albums and family Bibles (or an equivalent)?

Are wizards born to muggles actually recipients of recessive genes passed from so many generations back that their families no longer remember that they had magical relatives?

Could Hermione be a descendant of Rowena Ravenclaw? The Sorting Hat had wanted to put her in that house.

Could Ron be a descendant of Hufflepuff? I can see him begging the Sorting Hat not to put him there if it had considered it.

Could the trio be uniting the other three houses into Gryffindor?

Alas, all we have are questions. I am tired of waiting for book six. And I bet it takes forever for book seven to be completed. sigh.

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Madame Librarian - Apr 16, 2004 8:40 pm (#36 of 180)
I'll just point our here that "heir" doesn't necessarily mean that soemone is the "descendant." You just have to be named in the will, or fulfill some other prophectic (!) criteria perhaps.

Ciao. Barb

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DJ Evans - Apr 17, 2004 5:30 pm (#37 of 180)
Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
I might be totally off base here, but didn't Tom do some sort of task or spell (something) to become the heir of Slytherin? Like I said, it's just something that I can remember but not well enough to state exactly what it was that he did. Dang!!! Does that make sense to anybody?

Later days, Deb

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vball man - Apr 17, 2004 8:57 pm (#38 of 180)
He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot loose. - Jim Elliot
I think that it makes sense that Vol could be a non-descendant and be "heir."

However, Vol does say, "...You think I was going to use my filthy Muggle father's name forever? I, in whose veins runs the blood of Salazar Slytherin himself, through my mother's side?..." (CoS)

He seems to be claiming to be an actual descendant.

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Madame Librarian - Apr 18, 2004 8:17 am (#39 of 180)
Thanks, vball, I knew someone would have an apt citation to settle the descendant v. heir thing. It seems that Tom knew quite a bit about his mother's side of the family. But how? Not the right thread, here for a discussion of this, but I'll pose the question on the correct thread.

Ciao. Barb

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Catherine - Apr 18, 2004 9:30 am (#40 of 180)
Canon Seeker
Perhaps he perused a copy of the wizards's guide to Genealogy--like the one that was in 12 Grimmauld Place.

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Madame Librarian - Apr 18, 2004 9:35 am (#41 of 180)
FYI--I did pose my question (see post #39 above) on the Tom Riddle/Voldemort thread for those who are interested.

Ciao. Barb

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DJ Evans - Apr 18, 2004 5:46 pm (#42 of 180)
Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
vball man, I remember that passage ("...You think I was going to use my filthy Muggle father's name forever? I, in whose veins runs the blood of Salazar Slytherin himself, through my mother's side?..." (CoS), I had forgotten that. Thanks! But can we take LV at his word? He has been know to not tell the whole truth. It could just be a fantasy in his head that he has had and held so long that he is even starting to believe it himself? That or he preformed some ritual where he got some blood from Salazar Slytherin's grave (from his bones)?

Here's a funny little thought: If at the end of book 7, right before Harry kills LV (if that is the way JKR has it all happening), LV finds out that it's really HP that is the heir of not only Gryffindor but also the "true" heir of Slytherin? Wouldn't that just make LV's day?

Later days, Deb

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S.E. Jones - Apr 18, 2004 6:02 pm (#43 of 180)
Let it snow!
I'd take him at his word here. When we are told that he was lying before it was when he was trying to manipulate Harry, i.e. he had a purpose to the lie, to try to persuade Harry of something, but here he is simply explaning his reasons for the name Voldemort.

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DJ Evans - Apr 18, 2004 6:11 pm (#44 of 180)
Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
S.E. Jones, you're right there, but I've just always felt if you will lie about one thing--then you are most likely to lie about other things. And with his lying to try and persaude Harry of something, then that just gives me the impression that lying is his way of getting what he wants--and he would love to be known as the heir of Salazar Slytherin!!! So I'm still not going to trust LV on this one.

Later days, Deb

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Czarina - Apr 19, 2004 7:28 am (#45 of 180)
That's the problem with liars -- one lie and suddenly no one believes you. I think that in the Chamber, Riddle was playing the part of the "explain-all villain" before he killed Harry and Ginny. He wanted Harry to die KNOWING that he was fooled all along by Lord Voldemort. So I see no reason for him to lie at this point. He believes that he is the heir of Slytherin, so it is true until JKR says otherwise.

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JKR4PM - Apr 20, 2004 11:40 pm (#46 of 180)
"We did it!" "Did What? Goodnight."
Do you mean that it is true that he is the heir or that he BELIEVES himself to be the heir?

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Czarina - Apr 21, 2004 9:02 am (#47 of 180)
Both, for now. What he said in the Chamber was true. He was not lying because at the very least, he believes that he is the heir. And why shouldn't he be?

Also, there is no rule that there can't be more than one heir of something. or that one cannot be two heirs simultaneously. Harry could be the Heir of Slytherin and Gryffindor AND Riddle could be the Heir of Slytherin. It's all possible at the present.

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S.E. Jones - Apr 21, 2004 9:41 am (#48 of 180)
Let it snow!
It can't be possible and allow for Riddle being, according to Dumbledore (whom I expect knows more than he's letting on about Tom's mum's family tree), is the last remaining descendant, i.e. the last heir....

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Iverson Godfrey - Apr 21, 2004 5:02 pm (#49 of 180)
Harry Potter fan since 2002
I could name my cat sole heir to all my earthly possesions and my direct decendants wouldn't be entitled to a dime. So you do not have to be a decendant to be an heir, and being a decendant does not guarentee an inheritance.

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S.E. Jones - Apr 21, 2004 5:48 pm (#50 of 180)
Let it snow!
Yes, but in this particular case it would seem that Slytherin had provided that his blood descendants would be his heirs, probably following traditional lines of inheritance, and Voldemort hadn't named any non-blood heirs, that we know of.....

Verbina - Apr 24, 2004 7:14 pm (#51 of 180)
Image by me. Base by Nefertiti at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Or it might be that there is more than blood necessary to be the Heir. Philosophy, ability etc could all tie into it. It's not just that Tom could speak to snakes. Harry could do that. It's not that he could open the chamber. Harry did that as well. It's not just his hatred of Muggles. Other have that hatred as well. And it is not just his blood. Others likely have that as well. It is the right combination of them all that make him the Heir. The same could go for Harry or whomever you think it could be for Gryffindor.

Though...going with the uniting of the houses to defeat Slytherin, I do find it interesting that for the first time in Book 5, someone not in Gryffindor took part in Harry's adventure at the end of the book. Luna is a Ravenclaw.

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S.E. Jones - Apr 25, 2004 8:25 pm (#52 of 180)
Let it snow!
And it is not just his blood. Others likely have that as well.

Or it could be his blood through his mother's family. As I said before, lines of inheritance follow certain lines only (such as through eldest sons) not every line of a family tree. JKR said we'd find out more about Tom's mother in Book 6 or 7 and I think this is tied into her family and who they were and their connection to Salazar Slytherin. For all we know, Tom's grandfather may have been Morvolo Slytherin and he was the first in his family to not have a son and thus, providing he didn't have a brother, lines of inheritance would travel to his daughter (who married Riddle) and then to his grandson, Tom.

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Verbina - Apr 26, 2004 9:02 am (#53 of 180)
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True. Very true SE Jones. It could be that it is primarily the blood but I can't help but wonder if perhaps there is just atiny bit more to it than the blood. With so many centuries between Salazar and Tom Riddle there is a chance that he was a direct decendent of Salazar but the chances are rather slim considering all the variables. But if it were a connection of blood combined with mind set, magical tendencies, special abilitiies such as the Parseltongue ability, all would sort of make the claim to the heeirship more legitimate I guess.

I am reminded of a different series of books I read where heirship was decided not on blood lines but on the psychic abilities. If the head of a line had children but none showed the abilities of the line, he could pass over them and give the heirship to another relative that did show the ability. Blood still played a part but the ability was the clincher.

Just a possibilty in this area. We really don't know how the wizarding world would have figured it to be honest.

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S.E. Jones - Apr 26, 2004 9:09 pm (#54 of 180)
Let it snow!
Actually, it wouldn't be that implausible for him to be a direct descendant of Slytherin, even after more than 1000 years, since lines of inheritance follow certain family lines. Royal and noble families (especially in European nobility, since they kept such good record of it) can trace their linage back farther than that in many, many cases.

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Vern Afanofhp - May 25, 2004 8:23 pm (#55 of 180)
My $.02 Is that DD Is the heir of Gryffindor......

For some strange reason I think, Harry's family tree might be older--maybe all the way back to Merlin????????????

This also means, that I think that the Longbottoms can trace their history there too!

At the end of the OotP, DD makes comments about, Harry's powers----some LV don't have....You know the old magic-----The ones in the DoM.

--VEZ--

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Blast - May 30, 2004 10:05 pm (#56 of 180)
I think I'm back!
I would like to know what Gryffindor looked like, if he was tall and had red hair, then maybe the Weasleys'are his heirs. But seriously if all the pureblood familys are related, then anybody could be anybody's heir.

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S.E. Jones - May 30, 2004 10:46 pm (#57 of 180)
Let it snow!
Since an heir would have to be declared through a particular line, it would matter how they are related, but it would be nice to know what he looked like. Why hasn't Harry ever run across a picture of the founders? All we've seen is the old statue of Slytherin in the chamber....

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Chris. - Jun 1, 2004 7:47 am (#58 of 180)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
In the CoS film when Harry and Ron lure Crabbe and Goyle to eat the cakes, there's a statue behind either H & R or C & G with a man surrounded by lions. I may be wrong but I think I've seen it.

The statue could be Gryffindor. I know it's the movie though.

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popkin - Jun 1, 2004 7:59 am (#59 of 180)
mother
That statue is actually surrounded by all four Hogwarts mascots - lion, snake, badger and raven. It is holding a scroll, and appears to be the Hogwarts architect. It could be Gryffindor.

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JKR4PM - Jun 1, 2004 6:31 pm (#60 of 180)
"We did it!" "Did What? Goodnight."
I think that the statue is not canon. I believe (and I have been wrong before) that it was put in so Harry and Ron would have something to hide behind that looked better than the inside of a closet.

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Accio Book Six - Jun 10, 2004 7:35 pm (#61 of 180)
Ok, hear me out. I am going to post this here and on the Heir of Gryffindor page, because I think it pertains to both and I can't choose.

I have a theory that Harry's immense talent for catching the snitch can add a lot to heir of Gryffindor case. I'll begin with the facts.

FACTS: Harry is the youngest seeker in a century. He is a genius on the broom. He has a connection with the snitch that has never failed him. Harry's parents went into hiding in Godric's Hollow. It is speculated that harry has family or a connection to Godric's Hollow. The inventor of the golden snitch was from Godric's Hollow. Quiddich was originally played in moors. Godric Gryffindor was from a moor. Godric (Godric's Hollow) is Gryffindor's first name.

DOES ANYONE KNOW IF GODRIC'S HOLLOW IS OR CONTAINS A MOOR? it would make sense, as a moor is a hollowing out of the ground, basically. If Godric's Hollow is a moor, it could stand to reason that Quiddich was once huge in GH. It could also be that GG lived in GH. Maybe GG was a quiddich star and lived in GH because it was a prime place for quiddich. MAYBE even GH was named the way it is because that was GG's favourite quiddich hollow. If any of this is true, and if it is in fact true that Harry's heritage lies in GH, the Gryffindor bloodline may have been in GH this whole time. And James Potter was a pure blood, so it's possible... maybe Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor. If GH is a moor, two things now make it more possible to prove that harry is GG's heir.

1. Just the fact that Harry may have been born in Godric's Hollow and that his family was from there makes it SLIGHTLY possible, just by geography.

2. I really think that Godric Gryffindor might have been a fantastic quiddich player. In particular, a seeker. Harry's unusually amazing talent at catching the snitch and the fact that his dad was great too makes it seem like seeking might just be inherited. What if the Slytherin gift that was passed to his heir was the parseltongue ability, and the Gryffindor gift was supernatural abilities on the quiddich pitch!

add those to the fact that harry pulled GG's sword out of his hat, and the fact that dumbledore said that "only a true gryffindor could..." (get it? a TRUE gryffindor? maybe, LITERALLY?) and I think we have our heir.

And Gryffindor and Slytherin were best friends. Maybe they were the only ones who could keep eachother in check? We all know that Voldemort is the heir of Slytherin... don't you think it would just make sense that Harry is the heir of his best friend and the only one that stood up to him? Remember, Gryffindor stood up to Slytherin when he didn't want to admit half bloods to the school.

So that's my theory. At first I thought the Heir of Gryffindor idea was stupid. Now I don't.

Haha, I think I've convinced myself... did I convince you?

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S.E. Jones - Jun 10, 2004 9:14 pm (#62 of 180)
Let it snow!
A wonderfully put theory, Accio Book Six. As for whether GH is a moor, on the Godric's Hollow thread, which I highly recommend, we discussed the fact that St. Godric (who many think Godric Gryffindor may have been derived from) is venerated in Durham, England, just north of Yorkshire (which is, of course, famous for its moors). There are also a great many mountains and hills along these moors where a Hollow could easily be hidden. Again, Bravo. By the way, you might want to look into this essay on the Lexicon about similarities between St Godric and Gryffindor and possible connections to Harry to help further your theory....

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Accio Book Six - Jun 11, 2004 4:28 am (#63 of 180)
Great, that fills in the one big hole in my theory!

It just seems like there are too many similarities for this to just be some hair-brained idea. And the more I think about it, the more it makes sense that the heir of Gryffindor would be needed to oust or stop the heir of slytherin.

haha, don't you hate it when there are so many thoughts swimming around in your head and you can't just focus it all? I wish I had had a pensieve when I was writing my big theory!

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Diagon Nilly - Jun 12, 2004 7:48 am (#64 of 180)
But weren't James and Lily living as muggles in Godrics Hollow? They would have been living as muggles among muggles...in a town founded by a wizard. Not that I don't think this wouldn't fit into the theory, but would it?

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Chris. - Jun 12, 2004 10:07 am (#65 of 180)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Hermione said on the train in PoA that Hogsmeade was the only wizarding village, however Godric'sd Hollow could be unplottable. Do we know if just the house was called Godric's Hollow?

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I Am Used Vlad - Jun 12, 2004 1:07 pm (#66 of 180)
I Am Almighty!
The inventor of the snitch is from Godric's Hollow. I'm pretty sure "Quidditch through the Ages" would be referring to the town in which he lived, and not the name of his house.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 12, 2004 6:57 pm (#67 of 180)
Let it snow!
It could be a co-inhabited village, as in a village where Muggles and Wizards live together (unbeknownst to the Muggles, of course). It isn't said that James and Lily were living as Muggles, just that they were living in Godric's Hollow. In PS Hagrid said, "...he turned up in the village where you was all living..." so I think the "village" he was referring to was Godric's Hollow, but that's just my opinion. There is also the comment by McGonagall in PS, "What they're saying is that last night Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow." which also points to it being the village they lived in and not their house.

Just because Hogsmeade is the only All-WIZARDING village, does that really mean that there aren't villages that are co-inhabited? Why is it automattically assumed to be a Muggle village?

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Accio Book Six - Jun 12, 2004 7:23 pm (#68 of 180)
Yeah, even if it is co-inhabited it could still happen. Plus, back in the days where Godric's hollow would have been named after Gryffindor (if it in fact happened) or when the guy invented the snitch, it would have been probably a fairly deserted moorland back then.

I mean, come on. Who doesn't know about the way things have grown since stuff like sanitation and penicilin and stuff were invented. I have two words for you: Urban Sprawl.

Godric's hollow was probably a mostly wizard settlement surrounded by wilderness and open land before modern times.

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Diagon Nilly - Jun 13, 2004 12:17 am (#69 of 180)
I thought I read in one of the books (or JKR interview? My befuddled mind can't recall) they were living as muggles while in hiding. I could be wrong. I would assume it's a muggle village because what's the point as living as muggles among wizards? Wizards can usually tell other wizards, even without magic, and the Potters wouldn't want to attract attention. Their thinking might be the last place Voldy would look is a muggle village.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 13, 2004 12:24 am (#70 of 180)
Let it snow!
Again, it be a co-inhabited village, so there is a mixture of Muggles and Wizards. Also, they were using the Fidelius Charm and so couldn't attract attention to themselves....

EDIT: Just found this comment from Hermione concerning Hogsmeade: "I've read it's the only entirely non-Muggle settlement in Britain - ". Well, if it's the only "entirely non-Muggle" then there must be villages that are partially-Muggle. Right?

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Diagon Nilly - Jun 13, 2004 12:36 am (#71 of 180)
Let me rephrase, the major majority of denizens would be muggles. Like little whinging. I don't think there's anyplace that would be 100% wizard-free.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 13, 2004 12:42 am (#72 of 180)
Let it snow!
Okay. Then I don't see the problem. They'd have the Fidelius Charm working and so wouldn't be attracting attention to themselves by other wizards. And, if they were living as Muggles, then the Muggles wouldn't have noticed anything odd. So we have a co-inhabited village where the Potters could easily have hid. Which means it's a village that could have it's roots as a co-inhabited village that once knew about its wizarding past (1000 some years ago). I guess I no longer see what we're arguing about....

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MrsGump - Jun 13, 2004 8:43 am (#73 of 180)
Could "living as Muggles" simply mean "not using magic". There seems to be ways of tracking when magic is used and by whom, so maybe they weren't using any magic while hiding.

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Accio Book Six - Jun 13, 2004 9:23 am (#74 of 180)
That's a good idea, MrsGump. I don't really know much about the fidelius charm, but I think if they weren't using magic, that would mean that they'd have to leave the house quite often to get the stuff they need to live. Maybe the fidelius charm protects them as long as they're in that town? Maybe that's why they always say that they were hiding in 'Godric's hollow' instead of 'in a house'. Haha, just thinking aloud here...

And go back to my last post about how Godric's hollow could easily be almost all muggle now but still be started by wizards. Anyone who has been to Brittain could see it as being plausable. There are few big cities. They're mostly all very small and there still is tons of sprawling open land. Besides, wouldn't towns back then have been set up in more suitable areas than moorlands?

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S.E. Jones - Jun 13, 2004 3:30 pm (#75 of 180)
Let it snow!
Does anyone know where the "living as Muggles" quote is from?

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Chris. - Jun 14, 2004 7:45 am (#76 of 180)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
According to published reports, Rowling had direct input into the scene in the first film. If so, we can glean the following facts:

Lily and James were living as Muggles in a two story cottage

We never see James in the final confrontation, which adds fire to some of the other speculations about who was actually there.

As Voldemort strides toward the cottage, he appears to be alone.

From 'Godric's Hollow' page on Lexicon.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 14, 2004 3:43 pm (#77 of 180)
Let it snow!
Lily and James were living as Muggles in a two story cottage

Do you know how Steve actually came up with this though? I ask because so many other things in the movies are different than the books and so many other wizards also wear Muggle clothes, or Muggle-like clothes. Lily definately looks like she's wearing Muggle clothes in the Mirror of Erised scene but James's clothes look more like they come from the late 1800s-early 1900s. I also have a problem with the Lexicon's statement that Godric's Hollow must be a Muggle town since Hogsmeade is the only entirely non-Muggle town in Brittain; it doesn't provide for the existance of co-inhabited towns which I think do exist and I think are at least hinted at in the books.....

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The giant squid - Jun 14, 2004 11:40 pm (#78 of 180)
Well, considering that 12GP and Diagon Alley are in London, there's at least one co-inhabited town in England...

--Mike

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Accio Book Six - Jun 15, 2004 8:12 am (#79 of 180)
And where the Burrow is... I don't have GoF on me, but I know that just the Weasleys, Diggorys and Lovegoods (maybe another one) are the only wizards in that area. That implies that there are muggles, unless they live in the middle of nowhere, and we know that that isn't true because when Harry first flies to the burrow, there are other houses around that he sees, right?

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Tomoé - Jun 17, 2004 9:22 am (#80 of 180)
Back in business
The Fawcetts too live around Ottery St Catchpole. The Weasleys that we know pretty well, the Diggorys that was in the limelight in GoF, the Lovegood that was in the limelight in OoP, I wonder when we will encounter the Fawcetts ... but that's for another thread.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 18, 2004 3:07 am (#81 of 180)
Isn't there a Fawcett in Hufflepuff, in the same year as Harry? I think her name is Hannah.

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The giant squid - Jun 18, 2004 4:16 am (#82 of 180)
Phelim, no one named Fawcett is sorted with Harry. Hannah's last name is Abbot (SS/PS ch. 7, p. 119, US edition).

Curiously, though, I caught another bit of JKR's problems with math: on p.122 she says, "And now there were only three people left to be sorted." She then lists Dean Thomas, Lisa Turpin & Ron Weasley...then mentions that Blaise Zabini was sorted. Dean, Lisa, Ron, Blaise...yup that's three. :-\

--Mike

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Accio Book Six - Jun 18, 2004 5:48 am (#83 of 180)
hahahahaha, good one, Mike!

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popkin - Jun 18, 2004 9:02 am (#84 of 180)
mother
Edited by Jun 18, 2004 9:03 am
This is from the Lexicon:

Fawcett, Miss S. b. 1980 (deduction) Ravenclaw, 1991 - 1998 (CS11, GF16, 23) (see below)

Possibly part of the Fawcett family of Ottery St. Catchpole. Attended the Duelling Club in 1992 (CS11) and the Yule Ball in 1994 (GF23). For a short time she had a long white beard, thanks to trying to cross Dumbledore's Age Line to put her name in the Goblet of Fire despite being underage (GF16).

During the meeting of the Duelling Club, Miss Fawcett was mentioned as though she were grouped with other Ravenclaws in Harry's year. She could not have attended the Yule Ball without an older date unless she were at least in Harry's year. Dumbledore's Age Line shows that she could not have started Hogwarts before 1990. It seems a reasonable deduction that she is in Harry's year. Still, this a deduction, not something stated explicitly in canon. - MLW

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Verbina - Jun 18, 2004 9:28 am (#85 of 180)
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Back to teh all wizard villages issue. I don't think it would really be necessary to list the co-inhabited villages as it would seem that the wizards are everywhere. they just are not known to the Muggles which live around them. (Other than they think the people a bit odd!)

I always felt that Godric's Hollow was a village. Not too small and not too big. Easy to disappear into and sort of meld into the muggle population.

One thing though that has always made me curious is what did the Muggles think when the house blew up?

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Accio Book Six - Jun 18, 2004 2:20 pm (#86 of 180)
Yeah, I've always wondered that too. It would have been hard for Hagrid to just go in and get harry, as the muggle police/fire dept. would have been there!

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Padfoot - Jun 18, 2004 2:52 pm (#87 of 180)
Well, when Peter blew up the street causing all those muggles to die they blamed it on a gas line explosion. Some similar excuse would be used for the Potter's house.

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Verbina - Jun 18, 2004 10:04 pm (#88 of 180)
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But like Accio Book Six said, wouldn't the police and fire departments be there? Would they let a large man like Hagrid poke around in the rubble? Or did he and Sirius get there before the police and fire department?

I have often wondered if perhaps the muggles of the village were friendly with the family and if any would recall them fondly. If Harry was to return to Godric's Hollow, and the muggles of the area knew James and Lily, there may be a few surprised people there. After all, everyone comments on how much he looks like James except for his eyes. Surely, if they were acquainted with the muggles, someone woul drecognize him as the long lost Potter boy. And I am sure they probably thought him dead after the explosion.

I seem to be rambling a bit here now...I better stop.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 18, 2004 10:31 pm (#89 of 180)
Let it snow!
If they lived out on the edge of town (or say 10-15 minutes outside of town), and it were a small rural village, it might at least take the Muggles several minutes to realize something had happened and call the authorities. Hagrid does say he "got [Harry] out all right before the Muggles started swarmin' around" so the Muggles might've shown up just after Hagrid took off with Harry (I'm guessing Sirius then Disapparated from the scene)....

Also, do we know the explosion (being magical and all) even make a noise? One would naturally assume so, but, being that we don't know everything that happened that night, who really knows....

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 21, 2004 2:47 am (#90 of 180)
Thanks Popkin - I knew I had read of Miss Fawcett and actually went through the books to find her. these are the only two references I can find. But boy what a Homer. To mix her with Hannah Abbot.

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Tomoé - Jun 21, 2004 9:26 pm (#91 of 180)
Back in business
Giant Squid -> Curiously, though, I caught another bit of JKR's problems with math: on p.122 she says, "And now there were only three people left to be sorted." She then lists Dean Thomas, Lisa Turpin & Ron Weasley...then mentions that Blaise Zabini was sorted. Dean, Lisa, Ron, Blaise...yup that's three. :-\

It is not JKR's mistake, it's the US editor's mistake. In the original version, there's no line for Dean Thomas, so Lisa, plus Ron, plus Blaise make three. When they published it in the US, the editor add the line about Dean but did not change the statement "And now there were only three people left". JKR's honor is safe. ^_^

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The giant squid - Jun 21, 2004 11:07 pm (#92 of 180)
Thanks, Tomoe. I'd rather blame editors than writers for anything anyway. They're dark, evil creatures that are bitter that they can't write better (or add, for that matter).

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 22, 2004 2:43 am (#93 of 180)
Tomoe this miscount is also in the UK edition.

Oy - Giant squid. I'm an editor, and a writer. Yes many editors are ghouls and monsters but we are not all that bad. We have to make a book sellable, and leve in deliberate mistakes so people have something to talk about.

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Accio Book Six - Jun 22, 2004 6:15 am (#94 of 180)
Anyone have any input into why Harry is or isn't the heir of Gryffindor? I think we've gotten a little too far off topic here...

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Chris. - Jun 22, 2004 6:38 am (#95 of 180)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Okay, here's my input into why Harry could be the Heir of Gryffindor.

When Harry was getting his first wand it shot out red and gold sparks the colours of Gryffindor.

In the Chamber of Secrets Harry pulled Godric Gryffindor's sword from the Sorting Hat and later Dumbledore tells him that only a "true Gryffindor" could have done this.

Before Harry's parents died they lived in "Godric's Hollow" Godric being Gryffindor's first name

Harry birthday is on the 31st July which falls under the sign of Leo the Lion, Gryffindor's mascot.

Harry has a natural affinity with Fawkes the Phoenix. Fawkes is scarlet with a gold tail - again the colours of Gryffindor.

And against the theory:

Fawkes the Phoenix's colouring/plumage does not have to do with Gryffindor: The traditional plumage for phoenixes in myths are scarlet and gold.

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Accio Book Six - Jun 22, 2004 10:26 am (#96 of 180)
But perhaps Godric Gryffindor made Gryffindor House's colours scarlet and gold BECAUSE of the colours of the pheonix. I think, actually, that he probably did.

EDIT: and prongs... are you canadian? I can usually tell these things...

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Chris. - Jun 22, 2004 3:46 pm (#97 of 180)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
No I'm not. I'm from Scotland!

As for the Phoenix thing, that could be a possibility.

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Verbina - Jun 22, 2004 6:08 pm (#98 of 180)
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Oh! Okay, on another forum we had a 2 year long discussion on this topic. We covered alot of ground in there (and suprisingly the conversation about the prophecy was amazingly close! )

We made a list and most is what Prongs said. But there is one more thing.

Little is mentioned about James family. We can however assume from various things that he was from a well off wizarding family. The vault at gringotts was very full when Harry first went there. Now unless there was a donation fund thing set up after James and Lily died, the money was there from before his parents were killed. They weren't that old when they died so unless they were in a line of work that made large amounts of money, one of them was fairly well off. We have seen Petunia and the way she lives. Comfortable but not rich in my opinion. (Though that could be due to Dudley's bad case of the gimmies! ^_^) So it has to be James. Where would he get such money? Family inheritance perhaps? A well off wizarding family is the result of the thought process on this one.

That's all I have to add to it all.

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The giant squid - Jun 23, 2004 12:29 am (#99 of 180)
Phelim: my apologies...a writer friend of mine has recently had to deal with the bad sort of editor. Y'all are like lawyers: we know most of you are all right, but it's more fun to pick at ya.

Verbina, JKR mentioned in a chat (don't remember which one) that James inherited the money. It was in response to a question about what James & Lily did for a living, I believe. Of course, she didn't say how long the money had been in the family...

Prongs--I hadn't caught the Leo connection. Must be because I'm an Aquarius.

--Mike

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Chris. - Jun 23, 2004 12:37 am (#100 of 180)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Here's the interview question:

Questioner:What did James and Lily Potter do when they were alive?

JKR:Well, I can't go into too much detail, because you're going to find out in future books. But James inherited plenty of money, so he didn't need a well-paid profession. You'll find out more about both Harry's parents later.

AOL chat, October 19, 2000.

popkin - Jun 23, 2004 1:25 am (#101 of 180)
mother
Edited by Jun 23, 2004 1:36 am
Thanks for posting that, Prongs. I've always wanted to know where they got their money.

As for book support of Harry being the heir of Griffindor, at some point Dumbledore says that leaving Harry at the Dursleys insured he would not get the attention of a "pampered prince". I thought that was a blatant clue. It may have been near the end of the OotP. I'll see if I can look it up on the Lexicon.

EDIT: I couldn't find it, and my copy of OotP is loaned out just now.

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Chris. - Jun 23, 2004 1:59 am (#102 of 180)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
"Five years ago, then," continued Dumbledore, as though he had not paused in his story "you arrived at Hogwarts, neither as happy nor as well-nourished as I would have liked, perhaps, yet alive and healthy, You were not a pampered little prince, but as normal a boy as I could have hoped under the circumstances. Thus far, my plan was working well." (OP Ch37, P737, UK edition)

Is this the bit you're looking for?

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 23, 2004 3:51 am (#103 of 180)
Ginat Squid - I feel sorry for your friend. As I said, some editors (like the one who runs the Daily Prophet) are ghouls and monsters. I know, I work with them. But ask twenty editors to deal with your book - and you'll get twenty different lists of strengths and weaknesses.

As to Harry's wealth. I think JKR says something about James inheriting it on her website.

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popkin - Jun 23, 2004 5:39 am (#104 of 180)
mother
Thanks, Prongs. That was it.

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Chris. - Jun 23, 2004 5:53 am (#105 of 180)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
As for book support of Harry being the heir of Griffindor, at some point Dumbledore says that leaving Harry at the Dursleys insured he would not get the attention of a "pampered prince". I thought that was a blatant clue. (Post #101- Popkin)

Yes, I suppose it was in a way but Dumbledore didn't want Harry to be treated like a prince because he wanted to make sure Harry never got full of himself, and started being "too good for some people" and hanging around Slytherins. I doubt Dumbledore knew Harry would be in Gryffindor, but I think in the book and/or movie, Dumbledore has a twinkle in his eye and winks/nods/gives a significant to Harry. I'll try to find it.

EDIT: Nope, must be movie contamination. All Harry/the narrator says is that he could see the High Table and Dumbledore properly now. It was Hagrid who gave him the thumbs up. Anyone check PS/SS DVD or video for the "look"? (Sorry, I don't have it )

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Accio Book Six - Jun 23, 2004 6:03 am (#106 of 180)
I distinctively remember it. He raises his goblet a little and tilts his head in a bit of a nod to Harry, and Harry smiles. I thought it was nice, I wish JKR could have put it or something like it in the book. It shows a nice early connection between the two.

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Casey - Jun 23, 2004 6:13 am (#107 of 180)
I agree. It's one of my favorite moments in the film. I can't wait to see what develops as the books go further and we learn more about Dumbledore's relationship with Harry and if he really is the heir.

However, the Weasley theory is pretty interesting too, and I'd never thought about it before. It would make add a twist, that's for sure. I doubt many people would expect it.

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popkin - Jun 23, 2004 6:50 am (#108 of 180)
mother
Edited by Jun 23, 2004 6:58 am
About the "pampered prince" quote, it made me wonder if perhaps Griffindor and Slytherin were both pampered princes whose big heads contributed to the rift between the houses. We know that Slytherin's purist views were what ultimately caused the split, but if Griffindor had not been (perhaps) arrogant, and strutted around the castle (as at least one of his - we think - heirs has done) then the two friends might have been able to work out their differences. Griffindor had to have seen something good in Slytherin for them to have been best friends in the first place. Maybe Slytherin first began toying with his purist ideas because they got under Griffindor's skin, and he wanted to knock Godric down a peg. In that scenario Griffindor would have had a significant other (mother, father, or, most likely, wife) who was not pureblood.

The quote also made me think of Tom Riddle, definitely the heir of Slytherin, who was not raised as a "pampered prince", but in a muggle orphanage. Didn't Dumbledore notice what effect that set of circumstances had on Tom? I get the "blood protection" thing, but really can't buy into a kid being improved by deliberately placing him in a home where he is neither loved nor understood.

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Accio Book Six - Jun 23, 2004 6:58 am (#109 of 180)
I don't know, popkin. I think that just as time went on, Slytherin's views were just pretty much juxtaposed to Gryffindor's. I think of Gryffindor as a noble guy, just like most of the Gryffindor's we know now. I mean, he wanted to let EVERYONE with magical talent in, and he wouldn't stand for that jerk Slytherin who only wanted to admit the purebloods. I think they would have continued to be friends, had Slytherin not been so adament about letting in only the purebloods. I just wonder what the wizards of today would LOOK like, had Slytherin had his way... all that inbreeding... haha

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Chris. - Jun 23, 2004 7:05 am (#110 of 180)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
I think all the Founders except Helga Hufflepuff were a bit too sure of themselves. They were, after all, considered the greatest witches and wizards of their age.

Accio, you posted while I was thinking and writing my idea. Gryffindor did not want to let EVERYONE in, he wanted people with brave deeds to their name. Okay, not as discriminating as Slytherin but still had his preferences into what was the perfect witch/wizard.

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Accio Book Six - Jun 23, 2004 10:18 am (#111 of 180)
I'm pretty sure it was Gryffindor... I KNOW it is explained somewhere in the books, but I don't know where. Anyone who is good at quote finding, take a whirl. He wanted to let everyone with magical abilities into the school, but only wanted those who were brave in his house. And Hufflepuff DID have a standard for her house, too.

Now each of these four founders formed their own house, for each did VALUE DIFFERENT VIRTUES in the ones they had to teach. By Gryffindor, the bravest were prized far beyond the rest; For Ravenclaw, the cleverest would always be the best; For Hufflepuff, hard workers were most worthy of admission; And power-hungry Slytherin Loved those of great ambition.

Just note that the sorting hat's song from GoF (above) states that they ALL valued different virtues, and NOwhere does it say that Hufflepuff just took all the rest... it says that she found hard workers most worthy of admission. So if you're lazy or whatever, she wouldn't want you.

This is a bit off topic, but I just wanted to show that none of the house founders were without prejudice when it came to picking kids for their houses. Annnnnnnnnnnyways, if someone could find the bit where it's explained that slytherin only wanted purebloods and Gryffindor took a stand to let ALL magic children in, that would be great.

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Chris. - Jun 23, 2004 10:28 am (#112 of 180)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Now each of these four founders Formed their own house, for each Did value different virtues In the ones they had to teach.(verse from Sorting Hat song [GF])

Okay, I agree. They did all have preferences for entrance into their house.

Good Hufflepuff, she took the rest, and taught them all she knew,(GF)

So Hufflepuff did "take the rest"

Back to the Heir of Gryffindor...

If Harry was the Heir of Gryffindor, who would tell him? Dumbledore, of course but are there any heirlooms apart from the sword that Dumbledore would pass on?

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Accio Book Six - Jun 23, 2004 11:09 am (#113 of 180)
Oh, that's interesting! I know the sorting hat belonged to Godric, but Harry obviously can't have that...

I think if Harry is the heir, it will be more symbolic, as his mortal enemy is the heir of slytherin. You know, stop what was started over a thousand years ago kind of thing...

Plus, if you go back and read my post (I think it was in the late 50's or early 70's) you can see that I'm convinced that, although it's not technically an "heirloom", Harry DID inheret one thing... his amazing quiddich ability. I'll go and find my post now.

EDIT: yeah, read posts 61-63. Beyond that is some speculation about the specifics of Godric's Hollow etc. but 61-63 is the good stuff. hahaha, well, in my opinion.

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popkin - Jun 23, 2004 1:48 pm (#114 of 180)
mother
Accio Book Six - Jun 23, 2004 11:09 am (#113 of 113) Oh, that's interesting! I know the sorting hat belonged to Godric, but Harry obviously can't have that...

Actually, if the Sorting Hat were to outlive its usefulness and the houses were joined together, as it said they should be, Harry could inherit it.

I am in the camp that believes Harry is definitely the heir through James, so I think the three of them (Harry, James, Godric) must share many physical, mental and social traits. That seems to be the pattern that JKR writes into families, even through generations (Weasleys' red hair and impulsiveness, Malfoys' blond hair and arrogance, Dudley and Vernon's physical similarities and insecurities - Petunia is insecure, too). Then, the characters' choices change them as they grow older - either for better or for worse. James apparently made some bad mistakes (as Sirius seems to confirm when he tells Harry that James would have thrown caution to the wind just for the adventure - big paraphrase), and Harry runs the risk of doing the same. It makes me think that Godric must also have made a very serious error in judgement because of his arrogance, and Hogwarts has been cursed by it for the past 1000 years. Besides vanquishing the Dark Lord, I think it is Harry's destiny to cautiously choose rightly and free Hogwarts from Godric's curse.

Maybe Godric's decision to split the houses is tied as closely to his quidditch abilities as it is to Salazar's desire to be more selective in who to admit to the school. Maybe it started because Godric felt the bravest would make the best quidditch team members - or some other such nonsense. Afterall, why would the bravest kids make the best students or the best citizens of the school? At some point Godric set his good sense aside and set up his school to be forever pitted against itself.

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Accio Book Six - Jun 23, 2004 1:53 pm (#115 of 180)
I don't know if it ever said that it was Gryffindor's idea to separate the houses... I'm not sure, but it might have said that they argued over which students to admit, so they settled it by forming their own houses.

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popkin - Jun 23, 2004 1:59 pm (#116 of 180)
mother
It was Griffindor's school, so I think he had the final say. At any rate, he could have taken Helga's attitude and worked together with her, but he didn't.

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Verbina - Jun 23, 2004 11:30 pm (#117 of 180)
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Gryffindor's school? Okay I must have missed something or my memory is fading. I don't remember that.

Going back just a bit to what I posted about James money...that was what my friends and I had figured out and how we figured it out before that interview with JKR. ^_^

I had this truly bizarre idea along the lines of the Heir and personalities and such.

We all know that Voldemort and Harry are enemies. Opposites in many ways even though on the surface there are similarities. Guess you could call them opposite sides of a coin. And the part that sticks out in my mind is the wands having twin cores. The wood is different, yew vs holly. (Though both are considered deadly, one is connected to death (yew) and the holly is connected to rebirth or life.)

Is it possible that the same thing occured with Godric Gryffindor and Slytherin? Could they have been opposites so completely that to be true friends was impossible? Could it be that too had twin core wands? I know a bizarre idea. Go on and shoot it down. ^_^

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Chris. - Jun 24, 2004 2:17 am (#118 of 180)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
I don't know if it ever said that it was Gryffindor's idea to separate the houses-Accio Book Six

Well, in a way, Godric Gryffindor did split the school into houses.

When Slytherin only wanted Pure-bloods to be taught, Gryffindor took off his hat and said that would choose, the hat being the current Sorting Hat. They put brains in it and for c.1000 years, the hat has been dividing the new young witches and wizards into the four houses. The Sorting Hat has come to regret the desicion and wished he had stayed on Godric's head.

Is it possible that the same thing occured with Godric Gryffindor and Slytherin? Could they have been opposites so completely that to be true friends was impossible? Could it be that too had twin core wands?-Verbina

I think they were pushed into being friends. Gryffindor and Slytherin appear to be Pure-bloods, even though only one of them (Slytherin) was prejudice against all others except his own kind. Let's say this and this is only my opinion from canon. There may be nothing to suggest what I'm saying but there's nothing against it either. I'm going for the Founders being around 30 when they created Hogwarts.

Two Pureblood families, the Slytherins and the Gryffindors have had a lifelong bond of friendship. Their two young sons, Godric and Salazar were friends and had lots of ambition. In c. 1002BC, Godric and Salazar meet Helga Hufflepuff and Rowena Ravenclaw. They all share the same ambition, to teach young witches and wizards. They travel around and then settle in the east of Scotland, now near Edinburgh, and build Hogwarts, School of Witchcraft and Wizardry in c. 1000BC.

They decide on who they should take into the school. Godric says those with brave deeds to their name, Rowena claims only people with sharp minds of intelligence, Helga says the hardest workers (though she does say she would take them all), and of course, Salazar wanted those with the purest of ancestry.

Godric and the two female Founders are annoyed at this, but still want their own virtues considered. They are all as bad as each other. At last, Godric came with an idea.

'Twas Gryffindor who found the way,

He whipped me off his head

The founders put some brains in me

So I could choose instead! (GF)

In many years, the Founders and Hogwarts lived in harmony, teaching the students each year that had come and the Houses had helped them all. After a few years, rivalry between Godric and Salazar begun and Slytherin became jealous and angry at Gryffindor. The rift between them caused Slytherin to leave the school, but not before building the Chamber. Around 1000 years later, the Sorting Hat (and probably Dumbledore) is doubting that dividing the Firstyears in four is not a good idea.

This is a long post, sorry

Another person, I think it was on the T.M. Riddle thread that Harry recognised Tom's name because he was the Heir of Gryffindor he could recognise the Heir of Slytherin, seeing as the bond between Godric and Slytherin was strong. This could be a good idea.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 24, 2004 2:42 am (#119 of 180)
If the school was Godric Gryffindor's (though I've not come across that as a fact as far as I am aware) would the heir of Gryffindor own the school? Or is it run by some form of management or trust fund?

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Chris. - Jun 24, 2004 2:50 am (#120 of 180)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
But it's not Gryffindor's school, and I'm not sure it would be their heirs either.

When the Founders died (unknown), the ownership of Hogwarts went to the Headmasters and Headmistresses of Hogwarts.

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Accio Book Six - Jun 24, 2004 8:30 am (#121 of 180)
I don't think they started the school in 1002 BC... I think you meant AD. But that aside, I thought that the sorting hat said that they only made him when they would be leaving the school and needed a way of sorting the kids after their deaths. I think it was ALL of their ideas to sort the school into houses, and Gryffindor provided the hat later on.

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popkin - Jun 24, 2004 12:03 pm (#122 of 180)
mother
Edited by Jun 24, 2004 12:07 pm
I'm sorry I confused so many people. Godric Gryffindor did not rule the school. I checked the Lexicon and reread the Sorting Hat's song from OotP, and it definitely says that the school was begun by the four founders, and that they were on an equal footing. There is no indication that Godric Griffindor was in charge in any way. I don't know where I got that idea.

The Sorting Hat also says that when the four houses were first established it did not cause trouble between the founders. Trouble began later when after "several happy years...discord crept among us, feeding on our faults and fears". At that time, each of the founders "sought to rule". The fighting stopped when Slytherin left, but the founders were not happy to see him go. He left them "quite downhearted". And, from that point onward the Houses have not "been united as they once were meant to be."

Still, my point stands. Godric (along with the other three) lost sight of his original lofty goals and made self serving mistakes which cursed the school to be divided - house against house - instead of being united for a common purpose, as the founders had designed it to be.

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Accio Book Six - Jun 24, 2004 12:33 pm (#123 of 180)
Still, my point stands. Godric (along with the other three) lost sight of his original lofty goals and made self serving mistakes which cursed the school to be divided - house against house - instead of being united for a common purpose, as the founders had designed it to be. -Popkin

Does this sound like any potential heir we know of?

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popkin - Jun 24, 2004 12:36 pm (#124 of 180)
mother
Edited by Jun 24, 2004 12:37 pm
Right. Which was why Dumbledore placed Harry at the Dursley's where he would not be a "pampered prince" and repeat the arogant mistakes of his father, James, and their ancestor, Godric.

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Accio Book Six - Jun 24, 2004 12:49 pm (#125 of 180)
I think we *might* be on to something, here. I get more convinced of this theory every day.

I sometimes wonder what harry would have been like, had he been raised in the WW... do you think he'd be all arogant like his dad and Gryff? I can't picture him that way, but I suppose it could happen. Do you think he would have been friends with Draco and thought himself above people like Ron? I mean, he IS the boy who lived... he very well could have thought the world of himself.

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popkin - Jun 24, 2004 12:57 pm (#126 of 180)
mother
I think that might have been what Dumbledore was afraid of. I don't understand why Dumbledore didn't raise Harry himself, though.

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Accio Book Six - Jun 24, 2004 1:18 pm (#127 of 180)
Probably because he would have to run the school and wouldn't be able to give Harry enough attention or something along those lines. And of course Harry would have been safe when Dumbledore is around, but I don't think that Dumbledore could ALWAYS protect Harry, and that's why he sent Harry to number 4... so the blood protection would work.

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popkin - Jun 25, 2004 4:10 pm (#128 of 180)
mother
Ron isn't weak and useless. He's just portrayed that way in the movies. He's just beginning to come into his own, now that the twins are not putting him down all the time. Also, since when does an heir have to be not weak and useless. Surely there have been many, many heirs throughout history that fit that description.

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Dumbledore - Jun 29, 2004 2:49 pm (#129 of 180)
(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
How do we know that James' arrogance led to his downfall? According to Sirius and Lupin, his "head deflated a bit" by the time he graduated from Hogwarts. We really don't know that it was his arrogance that led to his death. However, I do like the theory!!

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Chris. - Jul 2, 2004 9:09 am (#130 of 180)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
"How do we know that James' arrogance led to his downfall?"- Dumbledore

James was too sure of himself when he was sitting his OWLs (Snape's Worst Memory, OP). I don't know but it may have been his loss of big-headed-ness (Not a word I know! ) that led to his downfall. I'm not saying Lily took his "power" away but she did take a part of James that, I think, made him a better wizard.

If Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor, did James "take up" the title before him? Was he called Lord Gryffindor? I don't know about that one.

Thoughts?

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Verbina - Jul 2, 2004 11:17 pm (#131 of 180)
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Unless it is more than blood that would define an heir. It could be a mixture of blood, abilities and personality. The last one of course is so variable. But abilities...

With the heir of Slytherin, we don't know for 100% positive that it was a blood line exactly that made Tom Riddle the heir. We DO know however that Parseltongue was a sign of heirship. So it may be that bloodline means nothing. Or it maybe that the right combination of things had to come together for someone to be an heir. Blood and ability. Also, if Tom's personality had been different...would he still have been the Heir of Slytherin? I don't know about that.

It reminds me of a series of books called the Darkover Novels by Marion Zimmer-Bradley. In them, the heirship of houses of power was defined by both blood and ability. If one man had a son, he could give the heirship to him. But he could also give it to his long lost cousin if the psychic power connected to that house was evident.

Anyway, what I am trying to say that it is possible that James was not an heir...not in the same way that it appears Harry could be.

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S.E. Jones - Jul 3, 2004 1:29 am (#132 of 180)
Let it snow!
Verbina: With the heir of Slytherin, we don't know for 100% positive that it was a blood line exactly that made Tom Riddle the heir.

Actually, I'd argue that we do know for sure that it was blood that marked Riddle as an heir. He isn't just called an 'heir' but a 'descendant' as well. Also, on JKR's website, she says in answer to the question of whether Harry and Voldemort could be related, "And hasn’t Dumbledore already told Harry that Voldemort is the last surviving descendent of Salazar Slytherin? Just to clarify - this means that Harry is NOT a descendent of Salazar Slytherin." Notice here she is stressing the "descendant" and not "heir"....

I'd say it is blood that qualifies an heir, at least in Salazar Slytherin's case....

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Verbina - Jul 3, 2004 1:45 pm (#133 of 180)
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Okay, yes. It has been stated that Voldemort was the last living decendant of Slytherin. But one thing that has always bothered me about that is that there were other decendants before Tom. And from the way the situation with the Chamber is discussed, no one before Tom had opened the chamber. Why? There had to have been others of Slytherin blood over the centuries that would have been able to open it.

That is why I am thinking it is not just the bloodline that decides it. Tom HAD to be a parselmouth to open the chamber, let alone control the basilisk. Without it, bloodline meant nothing.

And the same with personality. Without the personality that Tom had, there is no way that the chamber would have been opened by him. If he were like Harry, the chamber would not have been opened, or at the very least, the Basilisk would not have been unleashed.

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Dumbledore - Jul 3, 2004 4:06 pm (#134 of 180)
(Albus Percival Wulfric Brian)
That's very interesting, Verbina. One would have to have been a parselmouth to control the basilisk. That would mean that if you were an heir only by blood, that all of Salazar's descendents were parselmouths. But we know that can't be true, because being a parselmouth is such a rare gift. So it is possible that there are other variables to determine an heir...hmm...will have to think on this one a little.

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green shoes - Jul 3, 2004 9:20 pm (#135 of 180)
"DON'T PANIC."
Hi! Recently, when the 6th book title came out, a bunch of HP fans around here got together and discussed in particular, who IS the 'half blood prince.' We have all thought for some time now that Harry is a descendent of Godric Gryffindor, and perhaps his true heir. There are so many clues that lead one to believe this. I believe that Godric was a prince. It seems to me that he was the MAIN founder of the school. Some maybe small things that lead me to this conclusion, would be-- the knocker on the Head's (Dumbeldore's) office is a Gryffin. Also the sorting hat was literally taken off Godric's head, and used as the official sorter from then on. He had a jewel encrusted sword--magical sword?--excalibur?(princelike?) Being a prince he would've had alot of money to build a school with as well...alright, maybe these are all things that we've all known, I'm not sure, if this is true, im sorry for wasting your time, but one last thing that my sister and I couldn't help but notice as having importance, is that when we looked up Godric online, the search came up about a certain St. Godric, who was also known as a 'patron' (patronus) saint, and I believe he had some abilities to prophecize(sp?) about the future, and seemed to know things that were going on hundreds of miles away..(sound like anyone we know? harry!) The final thing about him that was interesting to us, was that St. Godric was always protrayed in paintings and such iconography with a STAG at his side! (james'animagus form--harry's patronus).Harry's parents hid out at Godric's hollow as well--can't be a coincidence! Harry could also have more special protection at Hogwarts, because of a connection to Gryffindor. I think harry will find out all about this connection to Godric in the next book, and realize why he is so powerful, and his fate more fully. Perhaps Godric left behind some more interesting magical amulets that could help harry vanquish Voldemort, without his wand?? Alright, I'll stop now.) peace!

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Chris. - Jul 3, 2004 10:23 pm (#136 of 180)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
"One would have to have been a parselmouth to control the basilisk. That would mean that if you were an heir only by blood, that all of Salazar's descendents were parselmouths. But we know that can't be true."-Dumbledore

But couldn't the gift of Parselmouth skip a few generations. Some, now deseased, descendants had it, but others didn't. Tom Riddle, through many generations of his mother's family, just was lucky to inherit it, and for it to help him on his way to power.

And blue shoes, great ideas! I am a Harry-Heir of Gryff supporter too. ^_^

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S.E. Jones - Jul 3, 2004 11:53 pm (#137 of 180)
Let it snow!
Verbina: But one thing that has always bothered me about that is that there were other decendants before Tom. And from the way the situation with the Chamber is discussed, no one before Tom had opened the chamber. Why? There had to have been others of Slytherin blood over the centuries that would have been able to open it.

Aside from seconding what Prongs had to say about the ability skipping a generation, I think it may also simply be fate. Tom had the same hatred for Muggle-borns that Salazar had but perhaps Salazar's children didn't; after all, Tom's mother married a muggle (willing from what we know). Tom's circumstances simply happened to turn out so that he grew up in a situation that allowed him reason to hate Muggles (no I'm not saying that he became Voldemort purely because of his environment, simply that his environment fostered the development that may or may not have taken place otherwise). Therefore, he, someone who was like Harry and longed for a familial connection to the wizarding world, went looking for the Chamber to "fulfill his birthright" (an award his misguided dreams and sense of "righteous anger" asured him he was owed after being neglected for so long).

Simply put, I don't think Salazar's other descendants had the right circumstances come together to cumulate into the Chamber opening, if they even knew about it at all. It is quite possible that one descendant decided to put a stop to all the nonsense and didn't tell his children about it, who didn't tell their children, etc. However, Tom did have the right mindset to open the Chamber, and I think that's what really matters (he was a blood heir, with the same thought process as his ancestor)....

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TLWest - Jul 4, 2004 3:57 pm (#138 of 180)
Oooooh!! I love that St Godric had a stag by his side! That's a really interesting supporting detail!

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Green Eyes - Jul 6, 2004 10:48 am (#139 of 180)
I've been thinking about this alot (too much, really) and I've read over some of the posts here...too many to read them all so I hope I'm not repeating. A couple of thoughts/observations that I'd like some help with...

All the Weasley's are placed in Gryffindor...why? Ginny is the only girl born to Arthur's family in several generations...why?

I think that the Weasley's are direct descendants of Godric Gryffindor by bloodline.

I think that Harry is the one with the power to vanquish the DLord...but he is not automatically sorted into Gryffindor at his sorting....he asks not to go into Slytherin which was the hat's first inclination...to put him there.

Is he almost placed in Slytherin because he is at heart a Slytherin or is it because he has some of Voldemort in him? Is this an anomaly? Is he really a Gryffindor and only "contaminated" by the power transferred to him?

Harry chooses not to be a Slytherin...and is then placed in Gryffindor...this suggests that an "Heir" makes a choice to be so (if he is in fact the heir of GG )and that it is not necessarily bloodline that makes one an heir. Or does it suggest that Harry has the "heart" of a Gryffindor by choosing to deny his nature and act differently? Is it the ability to deny this nature that gives him the power to vanquish the dark lord? The fact that his father morphed into a Stag which is the animal associated with St. Godric suggests a blood connection to Gryffindor through the Potters. But it could also suggest that James was at "heart" a Gryffindor too - defying Voldemort three times etc. not necessarily a blood descendant.

It still doesn't answer the question as to why Ginny is the only girl. But this fact being brought up makes me think that it will be through marriage that Harry will be brought into Gryffindor's actual bloodline (through his children). Whew! Help!

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 6, 2004 2:20 pm (#140 of 180)
"Anyone can cook"
Green Eyes,

Nowhere does the Hat say it was going to put Harry into Slytherin, or that it wanted to put Harry into Slytherin. What it does say (twice!) is that Harry would have done well in Slytherin.

Don't feel bad. This is a very common misinterpretation. :-)

Marcus

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Green Eyes - Jul 6, 2004 3:01 pm (#141 of 180)
I don't think its a misinterpretation...I never said the sorting hat said Harry should be in Slytherin, but the sorting hat did say "Are you sure...etc.

If Harry didn't have what it took to be successful in Slytherin, the sorting hat wouldn't have said those things, it would have made other comments about other houses...but when Harry says "Not Slytherin, Not Slytherin..." the sorting hat says "Are you sure?" and goes on to list why he would be great in Slytherin...

This gives me the impression that had Harry said nothing, he might have gone in Slytherin...but Harry didn't want to end up in Slytherin because of Malfoy and he heard all bad wizards came from there...he asked to be in "anything but Slytherin."

But if you think about Tom Riddle/Voldemort being the heir of Slytherin, and Harry being "touched" by Voldemort through the attack on him as a child and carrying some of LV's powers inside him...it makes perfect sense that he would be sorted as a Slytherin.

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Ozymandias - Jul 6, 2004 3:07 pm (#142 of 180)
Nothing beside remains...
As I posted earlier on the HBP thread, I am convinced that Ginny is the Heir of Gryffindor.

I agree with Green Eyes that the Weasleys are G.G.'s descendants. Not only have all of them been in Gryffindor, but they have red hair, one of the colors of Gryffindor house.

Ginny is the only girl in several generations. This must be important in some way. (Though I'm slightly less certain of this after the whole Mark Evans thing.)

Ginny is often described as catlike or otherwise associated with cats. The mascot of Gryffindor house is a lion.

Ginny appears to have been deliberately selected as the recipient of Tom Riddle's diary. Why would this be? Perhaps it is because as the Heir of Gryffindor, she would have posessed the ability to stop the Heir of Slytherin. (I believe that G.G. left behind a Chamber of Secrets of his own, to combat Slytherin's heir if he put the "kill all the muggleborns" plan into action.) This would be sort of like Riddle having Ginny kill all the roosters. He got rid of anything that could stop Slytherin's monster, including Ginny herself.

I think, if the PS/SS tasks represent the seven books, that Ginny is the smallest bottle that will help Harry through to the next book. The Gryffindor chamber might contain something that would be helpful in fighting Voldemort.

Thoughts? Problems?

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Warty Harris - Jul 6, 2004 3:08 pm (#143 of 180)
The hat said that Harry would do well in Slytherin. I think it may mean something. Not that he was meant for that house or was suppose to be there but something about him.......what could that be?

I mean if he is the Heir of Gryffindor that makes the hats comment even more strange. What about Harry makes him a Wizard that would do well in Slytherin? I really have not seen anything yet. Let us look at the hats view of a wizard that would do well in Slytherin.

Or perhaps in Slytherin

You'll make your real friends,

Those cunning folk use any means

To achieve there ends.

I think it may be the part about using any means to achieve the end. Maybe.....

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 6, 2004 3:42 pm (#144 of 180)
"Anyone can cook"
Edited by Jul 6, 2004 3:43 pm
Oh yes, Harry's ability to do well in Slytherin will be important. This I fully agree.

If nothing else, it hints to the fact that not all Slytherins are bad/evil people. It could even mean that he will eventually find close friends there. *cough*Pansy*cough*

It could also mean that Harry will help heal the breach (at least temporarily) between the two former "fast" friends Salazar Slytherin and Godric Gryffindor.

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Chris. - Jul 7, 2004 1:56 am (#145 of 180)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
I had to laugh at that sneaky use of invisble font, Marcus!

So if Ginny is the Heir, having the Heir of Slytherin's soul poured into you can't be good. Is this why she's getting so much power?

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 7, 2004 7:32 am (#146 of 180)
"Anyone can cook"
It is not likely that Ginny is the HoG. She has six older brothers ahead of her.

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Chris. - Jul 7, 2004 2:53 pm (#147 of 180)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
But could the gene of the Heir go down through the Weasley women?

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S.E. Jones - Jul 7, 2004 4:18 pm (#148 of 180)
Let it snow!
Not if it started with a male.... Why would it?

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Ozymandias - Jul 7, 2004 10:02 pm (#149 of 180)
Nothing beside remains...
Why not? We don't really know anything about the way inheritance passes in the WW. I don't think she can be excluded just on the basis of her brothers without having more information.

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S.E. Jones - Jul 7, 2004 10:07 pm (#150 of 180)
Let it snow!
Well, if it is something that means you have to be a female to be the heir of, why would Gryffindor be an heir or have an heir in that way because he was male..?

Also, it wouldn't be inherited through the Weasleys as they haven't had any girls in the family for generations and so couldn't pass the "gene" on. Unless, you are saying that this "gene" is only expressed in the females of the family, which means that Gryffindor, being male, wouldn't have expressed....

See what I mean?

As for inheritance in the wizarding world, do you mean genetic or monetary?

Ozymandias - Jul 7, 2004 10:28 pm (#151 of 180)
Nothing beside remains...
I guess inheritance wasn't quite the word I was looking for. I meant "heirship" or "heirhood" or "heirness" or whatever is correct. Since Tom Riddle is the only heir of a founder we have seen, we don't have much to go on. We do know that he was a blood relation of Slytherin (though we don't know if this is the deciding factor) and that he had to do research to find out about the Chamber. He also has the same opinion of muggle-borns that Slytherin did. This is what I think is most important: the heir being sort of a spiritual successor to the founder. But the point is, we really don't know.

I don't really think it's a gene that gets passed on in the sense of passing on eye color or something. It's my (largely unsubstantiated) belief that there are a number of conditions that must be filled for someone to be named Gryffindor's heir, and that Ginny is the first to fit the bill. The fact that she's the first female Weasley in a while could be important, or it could be another Mark Evans. My theory still works either way. (For me at least.)

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S.E. Jones - Jul 7, 2004 11:01 pm (#152 of 180)
Let it snow!
I think the that fact that Tom had Salazar's point of view concerning Muggles points more to the whole "it's our choices more than our abilities" debate. For all we know, Salazar's children (and their children after them) disagreed with him concerning Muggles and Muggle-borns. We do know that Tom's mom married a Muggle which points to her not having a Muggle prejudice. Tom, however, chose to follow his great-great... grandfather's footsteps whereas all the descendants between him and Salazar may have chosen not to..... That doesn't point to someone needing more than blood to be an heir, just more than blood to exercise that right.....

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Chris. - Jul 8, 2004 1:41 am (#153 of 180)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Okay, I was trying to guess there.

I have no idea who genes work etc but it could be Heirship clause. Gryffindor decided his Heirs would be women but Ginny's only been the first Weasley in 7(?) generations, so that isn't way back to Godric's time.

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penguin patronus - Aug 3, 2004 4:43 pm (#154 of 180)
"The map never lies!"
I'm sorry, but I really think that the heir of Gryffindor is Harry. There are many things that lead me to this. For example, gold and red sparks shot out of Harry's wand in Ollivanders, his parents hid from voldy in Godric's hollow, and I don't think that it's a coincidence that Godric's sword came out of the sorting hat! Perhaps this was something J.K. Rowling meant by there being clues in CoS. What do you think?

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Ozymandias - Aug 3, 2004 4:54 pm (#155 of 180)
Nothing beside remains...
As much as I want it to be Ginny, I have to agree with you, penguin. There are just too many signs pointing to Harry. Unless, of course, that's just to throw us off...

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penguin patronus - Aug 5, 2004 6:41 pm (#156 of 180)
"The map never lies!"
Yeah, besides, I really don't think that heirship would work only through the women. It would totally have to go throught the guys too.

Also, speaking of the heirs of the houses, who are Hufflepuff's and Ravenclaw's do you think?

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Tomoé - Aug 5, 2004 7:51 pm (#157 of 180)
Back in business
I do think Harry is Gryffindor's heir, but not his legal heir. That's where came the split between Slytherin and the other founders, the importance of whom your are born from versus you really are.

By pulling the sword out of the hat, Harry proved himself worthy in the way Gryffindor thought the best, Harry did save a girl from a bad wizard who threatened her life, risking his own life in the process, doesn't it sounds like a perfect knight story. ^_^

I expect Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff's heir to be in the same fashion, after all, "a rift began to grow between Slytherin and the others"* as Professor Binns told us, so it is not only to Gryffindor and Slytherin to make up but to the four of them. I do believe the sorting hat will make two people spiritual heir of Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff.

I also believe Ravenclaw's heir is Terry Boot and that he already got something from the hat because of this line (I heard you cry : "Pity Tomoe, not that crazy theory again!" ^_~) :

‘And did you kill a basilisk with that sword in Dumbledore’s office?’ demanded Terry Boot. ‘That’s what one of the portraits on the wall told me when I was there last year …’(OoP ch.16 p.305)

Notice the portraits in Dumbledore's office have always faked sleep until OoP, and even when they stop pretending, they never talk with anybody but Dumbledore when the headmaster is in there. My guess is Terry was left alone in Dumbledore's office and tried the hat again. Because something actually dropped out of the Hat one portrait (I bet on Phineas as he is always the first to talk with people beside Dumbledore when the Headmaster is not there) told him Harry get a Godric's sword out two years ago. Plus, Terry was the only Ravenclaw boy we knew for the first 4 books.

As for Hufflepuff, I'm thorn between Hannah and Ernie. Ernie is a hard worker, a not prejudiced pure-blood, he stick for his friends and fight injustice (the unfair way Malfoy ducked points, the unfair way the WW treated Harry in OoP, the unfair way Umbridge wanted to leave them unprepared for their DADA OWL, the unfair way Cedric was overshadowed by Harry). Hannah sounds to be a hard worker too, she's not prejudiced as she hang around with pure-bloods and muggle-borns alike, she stick up for her friends and fight injustice (sticking up for Harry in CoS and OoP, giving her support for Cedric in GoF, becoming member of the DA). I do think Hannah is more likely as JKR seems keen to keep the 50% male 50% female in the series.

Now, maybe Slytherin will have both a legal heir and a spiritual heir, as I don't see Harry, Terry and Hannah/Ernie trying to make up with Voldemort. ¬_¬ So I'll say, the four spiritual heirs will fight Slytherin's legal heir and therefore unit the houses in a common fight. My #1 candidate for the post are Theodore/Blaise (not sure which one) and probably Pansy. We don't know enough of them, but I'm sure it won't be Draco, too obvious.

Have at me! ^_^

* UK CoS ch.9 p.114

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Elanor - Aug 6, 2004 3:53 am (#158 of 180)
Hi ! I agree with you Tomoé that Harry is Gryffindor's spiritual heir. As I have written in another thread, the fact that he could take the sword out of the Sorting Hat is really important.

Gryffindor's sword isn't a very common one. If you add the fact that he praised chivalrous values above all, we can presume he was a knight himself.

Now, at Gryffindor’s time, there was a very important ceremony for the Knights, it was called the dubbing. It was an admission rite and, above all, the presentation of his weapons to the new knight. Most of the time, it happened during a feast, but in case of emmergency, it could be done on a battle field unexpectedly. During that ceremony, the oldest knight (he was called his Godfather) gave a knock on the shoulder, or the nape of the head, of the youngest with the flat part of the sword. Doesn’t it remind you something?

You know what it means : what if Harry had just been “dubbed “ during the chamber of secrets battle by old Gryffindor’s hat which still has got some of his brains ? Through the time, Gryffindor would, in this way, be a sort of godfather commitionning Harry to keep on his fight... It would also be a symbolic way to recognize in Harry his true spiritual heir.

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Tomoé - Aug 6, 2004 7:36 am (#159 of 180)
Back in business
Gryffindor "dubbed" Harry his spiritual heir through the Sorting Hat? I like the idea Elanor!

I also believe Gryffindor was a knight or at the very least a wannabe knight.

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azi - Aug 6, 2004 8:33 am (#160 of 180)
Photo borrowed from Ardent Photography
Hmmm, if Hogwarts was founded over a thousand years ago then there was no such thing as a 'knight' in Britain. There were, however, warriors. I suppose if Godric had travelled to France or Europe in general he may have seen an early form of the Feudal System and knights there. I think it more likely he was a warrior, in other words he was held in prestige and was known for his bravery, but was not someone elses vassal. He would not have had an overlord.

With the description of warlocks so far in the books (UK version anyway) I think it highly likely that Godric was a warlock, whatever difference it is between them and plain wizards. Warlocks are described as playing dangerous magical games, such as the one where you collect falling rocks in a cauldron on top of your head (I think). You must have been brave (and in a way, stupid) to play a game with such a high death rate. Bravery is a quality associated with Gryffindor House.

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Elanor - Aug 6, 2004 9:35 am (#161 of 180)
Well, I don't entirely agree with you Azi. That is true that the Feudal System really appeared in England after 1066 and the Norman conquest, but that doesn't mean that knights were unknown there. There were no vassalage, but there were already a chivalry. Early you find huge domains (in the IXth -Xth centuries) which were in charge of earls (who weren't vassals yet). It was a time of conflicts, invasions,and the lord (named then Hlaford) was very important and had to protect his people. He had knights (housecarles) who lived in his house, and that before the year one thousand, even if chivalry will be more organized from the XIth century. (sources : "Précis d'histoire du Moyen-Age" - Jacques Heers).

Besides, we don't know how many years Gryffindor lived : isn't DD something like 150 years old ? And surely his sword is a knight weapon and the Sorting Hat said : "chivalry set Gryffindors apart" (PS/SS).

And, but that is only a personal theory, I think he might have been related to the Norman dukedom even before the conquest because his crest is really very similar to the norman crest, which will become the kings of Englands' crest after the conquest. In this dukedom you could find a very advanced feudal and chivalrous system, in fact the one the normans brought with them in 1066.

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Tomoé - Aug 6, 2004 6:32 pm (#162 of 180)
Back in business
If I remember well, "chivalry" appeared in the 12th or 13th century when the Church decided it was enough, those warriors named knights had to stop abusing their authority. As for Gryffindor's crest, it can be related to the Norman one but it also can have nothing to do with it. We are at the very beginning of that art, some crests looked a lot like others without being related. Things settled down over centuries.

Anyway, I don't trust JKR with medieval dates, the four founders built Hogwarts away from muggles to escape persecutions. Which persecutions? The church wasn't powerful enough to do massive persecutions at the 10th century! The first massive persecution is the massacre of the Cathars in the 13th century, 3 centuries after the set the first stones of Hogwarts, they should be fearing Vikings!

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Elanor - Aug 7, 2004 8:49 am (#163 of 180)
No,no : I've searched again, and this is what my 'Encyclopedic dictionary of history' says :

Chivalry is born between the 7th and the 10th century, with the new supremacy of the horse-rider who supplants then the foot soldier. You can find professional combatants from the beginning of the 9th century, but the chivalry with its specific rites like the dubbing appears between 970 and 1030 and reach his height in the 11th century when, that is true, the Church tried to control the knights.

From the 13th century, chivalry starts to be on the decline whereas the arthurian knight type becomes a literary hero. Times were then relatively more peaceful and, through these heroes, knights were feeling a sort of nostalgia. Finaly, chivalry will really start to die during the Hundred Year's War (14th-14th centuries) when the british bow-men will prove their efficiency and superiority.

But as far as I know, I agree with you about the persecutions (I'll check).

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Tomoé - Aug 7, 2004 11:49 am (#164 of 180)
Back in business
I didn't express my thought clear enough (yet again -_-), sorry all.

While the Chivalry system was effective around the 7th to the 10th century, the "Chivalry Spirit" wasn't born by the Xth century, the saving-people thing is not yet part of the package deal comportements a knight is expected to have. It came in the 12th or 13th century, so Gryffindor is an avant-garde Knight. I'll check for references later this week.

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Green Eyes - Aug 7, 2004 3:07 pm (#165 of 180)
I like the idea of "spiritual" heir rather than blood heir, especially for Godric Gryffindor's heir. Blood wasn't so important to him as it was to Slytherin. So it would be okay for Harry to be the heir of Gryffindor and not be a blood relation. But I'm still not certain that he is in fact the heir of Gryffindor.

I'm still not certain though. The Weasley thing still intrigues me and from their physical description and Arthur's muggle obsession, I just think it screams SOMETHING...just can't be sure what yet.

I wonder what Ginny's patronus is? If Harry is the heir of Gryffindor, and not a blood relation, then perhaps the Weasley's being blood would still work and then Harry becomes an honorary member of the family (through marriage).

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Elanor - Aug 8, 2004 8:28 am (#166 of 180)
Hi Tomoé ! I understand your point better now, but I still think it began earlier. In the 11th century, the Church tried to control the chivalry in the meaning of impose institutions we call here 'la Paix de Dieu' and 'la Trêve de Dieu' (Peace of God and Truce of God)which gave rules to war and warriors. These rules also gave duties to knights, as defend the poor and weak people : from all of this will come out the crusade spirit before the end of the 11th century.

This spirit will reach his peak with the foundation of the religious military orders, as the Knights Templar (founded in 1118) or the Hospitaller Knights (several orders founded from the 11th century, the most famous, the Malta Order was founded in 1113).

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Chris. - Aug 20, 2004 10:03 am (#167 of 180)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
I brought up this topic up a while ago, but I'll ask it again: if Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor, are there any heirlooms, excluding the sword, that would be given to him?

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Ozymandias - Aug 20, 2004 3:47 pm (#168 of 180)
Nothing beside remains...
The Sorting Hat, perhaps? If the houses ever are truly united, there wouldn't be much need for it anymore.

I also think that Gryffindor left his own Chamber of Non-Evil Secrets behind, and that the heir would be able to access this, but it's just a hunch.

It's been speculated that Fawkes once belonged to Gryffindor. We've already seen that the phoenix is developing loyalty towards Harry. Perhaps as Gryffindor's heir, Fawkes would choose to be Harry's pet.

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Chris. - Sep 3, 2004 1:49 pm (#169 of 180)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Ages ago, I made a list on why Harry could be the HoG. Here's an updated list.

-When Harry was getting his first wand it shot out red and gold sparks the colours of Gryffindor.
-In the Chamber of Secrets Harry pulled Godric Gryffindor's sword from the Sorting Hat and later Dumbledore tells him that only a "true Gryffindor" could have done this.
-Before Harry's parents died they lived in "Godric's Hollow" Godric being Gryffindor's first name
-Harry birthday is on the 31st July which falls under the sign of Leo the Lion, Gryffindor's mascot.
-Harry has a natural affinity with Fawkes the Phoenix. Fawkes is scarlet with a gold tail - again the colours of Gryffindor.
-Phoenixes(Harry) and Basilisks(Voldemort) are mortal enemies.
-Why did Voldemort "offer" to spare Lily? Was it because Harry and James were the Heirs of GG?

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Phoenix song - Sep 3, 2004 2:16 pm (#170 of 180)
Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." (HbP, p. 549)
Prongs: You've summarized up a lot of excellent points! I think that Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor, too. There are so many indications that he will be that it really seems inevitable. I've also heard other posters, (sorry I can't remember who) tie Harry in with GG by the egg sized rubies on GG's sword. There are a lot of egg references with Harry: his letters come in a dozen eggs in SS; he retrieves a golden egg in GoF; he gets a large Easter egg from Mrs. Weasley; and the egg sized rubies on the handle of the sword that he pulls out of the sorting hat. I'm certain that I'm missing several instances. Maybe someone else will remember more.

By the way, I love your Cosmo avatar!

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Tomoé - Sep 3, 2004 3:39 pm (#171 of 180)
Back in business
Prongs -> Why did Voldemort "offer" to spare Lily? Was it because Harry and James were the Heirs of GG?

Okay, so Tom's plan was to kill James and Harry, who both are heirs of Gryffindor, then leave Lily alone because she's not? Come on, Voldie is not merciful and it's not the murder of one more innocent or not that will prevent him to dream peacefully. He and his DE are use to kill entire families just for the sake of frightening people, if he offer Lily to spare her life, she must had something that very few others had.

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Sirius Lee - Sep 4, 2004 7:57 am (#172 of 180)
I would venture to say that it is more than just the sword from the Chamber that references Gryffindor. Many believe Fawkes may be have once belonged to Gryffindor and we know that the Sorting Hat was taken off Gryffindor's head. I like to look at it as 3 of "weapons" of Gryffidor's helping Harry battle Slythern's weapon. Why would someone's bird, hat AND sword magically appear if there wasn't a deeper connection!?

(I know further discussion/debate of some of this [Fawkes' ownership in particular] belongs on other threads, but I think it contributes to the Harry as Heir debate!)

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Chris. - Sep 4, 2004 8:09 am (#173 of 180)
HBP: 16th July 2005: the most anticipated day in history
Sirius, great thoughts!

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Julie Aronson - Sep 8, 2004 8:11 pm (#174 of 180)
Edited by S.E. Jones Sep 8, 2004 8:48 pm
Hello!

I have a theory that I was unsure where to post, so I stuck it in "What's in a name". It deals mainly with the GG/SS-->HP/LV pairings. Maybe it should be here.

Any moderator--please put it wherever it is supposed to be. I'm still pretty new here...

->Julie, I moved your post to the "Connections Between Harry and Voldemort" thread.<- SE Jones

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Kelly Kapaoski - Sep 15, 2004 4:56 am (#175 of 180)
I think it is just the Old, Old Pure blood families that are interrelated such as the Weasleys, Crouches, Blacks, Malfoys and Lestranges. Earnie Macmillion was considered a Pureblood even though he could only trace his wizarding blood back 9 generations. now here is the thing: what if the weasley children were the Heir of gryffindor through their mother molly since she is a pure blood as well or Neville longbottem through his mother alice

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Sirius Lee - Oct 12, 2004 4:24 pm (#176 of 180)
Earnie Macmillion was considered a Pureblood even though he could only trace his wizarding blood back 9 generations.

But if assume that many wizards live as long as Dumbledore (about 150 years), how much more that 9 generations would you really need to go?

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Kelly Kapaoski - Oct 12, 2004 5:50 pm (#177 of 180)
could be anywhere between 10 and 12 generations; Dumbledore and marchbanks could be part of those rare wizards and witches who reach over 150 years old.

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Lorrianna - Oct 20, 2004 9:48 am (#178 of 180)
As you said, one cannot be the direct decendant if the birth is illegitimate. Lord Voldemort was born a bastard. How then could he be the heir to Sytherin if we are following those rules?

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Kelly Kapaoski - Oct 20, 2004 12:16 pm (#179 of 180)
Voldemort wasn't illigitamite on his mothers side, it is kind of hard for a mother to deny that she just gave birth to a child

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Tomoé - Oct 20, 2004 7:20 pm (#180 of 180)
Back in business
I tough they were married, Diary Tom said : "he found out his wife was a witch". But now that I think of it, Tom could have been lying, hyperboling or just be plain wrong.