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The Prophecy
Elanor Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:33 am
The Prophecy
Sly Girl - Aug 29, 2003 12:13 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Jan 12, 2006 12:15 pm
Does Dumbledore understand it correctly? Could it possibly mean something else other than Harry has to kill Voldemort? It's worded so strangely and ambigously that it could be open to interpretation. What part will Neville play?
The Prophecy Thread Index
This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. At that time, this thread was still set in the "Archived Thread to be Worked" folder of the WC forum. Elanor
Sly Girl - Aug 29, 2003 12:13 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Jan 12, 2006 12:15 pm
Does Dumbledore understand it correctly? Could it possibly mean something else other than Harry has to kill Voldemort? It's worded so strangely and ambigously that it could be open to interpretation. What part will Neville play?
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Last edited by Elanor on Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:59 am; edited 1 time in total
Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 1440
Join date : 2011-02-19
Age : 52
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The Prophecy (Post 1 to 50)
Elanor Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:38 am
zelmia - Aug 29, 2003 1:38 pm (#1 of 383)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I think he understands it perfectly, which is why he shed that single tear. I don't think it means anything else.
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Viola Intonada - Aug 29, 2003 1:47 pm (#2 of 383)
The prophecy (in it's own way) says that Harry has to bring an end to the Dark Lord. I don't think he actually has to kill Tom Riddle.
Besides, Dumbledore has admitted once that he was wrong. I don't think I could handle DD being wrong again. Oh, the horror! gasp!
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Sly Girl - Aug 29, 2003 1:58 pm (#3 of 383)
Okay, what I meant about the ambigousness of the prophecy, was this..
Logically there are two parts to the prophecy: the first is "either must die at the hand of the other..." This uncommon verbiage can be unclear at first read. Try replacing "either" with the phrase "one of the two" to make it easier to understand. The new phrase reads: "one of the two must die at the hand of the other." This states that the vanquisher (Harry) must kill the Dark Lord (Voldemort) or Voldy must kill Harry.
A few quick points: First, it does not rule out both of them dying. It’s quite possible for Harry to kill Voldy and then at some later time die at the hand of a third person or of natural causes.
Second, this part of the prophecy doesn’t preclude the odd possibility of both dying at each other’s hand, as in a old-west-style duel in which each participant simultaneously and lethally shoots the other as he himself is about to die.
Third, if athird person —not Harry and not Voldy—does kill Harry or Voldy it will have to happen after the other one is already dead at the other’s hand. That is, in most cases while both Harry and Voldemort are alive, no one else can kill either of them. We say in most cases because there is an exception to this claim typified by the following. Suppose Voldy feeds Harry a slow acting poison that will kill Harry, but not for several weeks. In the meantime Neville kills Voldy. Neville has killed Voldy while both Harry and Voldy were alive, but still Harry is soon to die at Voldy’s hand fulfilling the prophecy. Notice that in this case Neville can not kill Harry. For if he did, then neither Harry would have killed Voldy nor would Voldy have killed Harry.) Harry has been killed at Voldy’s hand; he just hasn’t died…yet.
In summary, excluding the bizarre or unusual, Harry must kill Voldemort (and then someone or something else could kill Harry) or Voldemort must kill Harry (and then someone or something else could kill Voldemort). But, neither can die by anyone else’s hand before one of them (or both of them) is killed by the other.
Now consider this...
Just for the record, let's set the text down:
The One with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies....and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...The one with the power to vaquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."
Dumbledore tells Harry that this prophecy could have applied to two people: Harry and Neville. Upon hearing this, Harry is hopeful that perhaps this was all a big mistake. Call up Voldemort, let him know, he's got the wrong guy. No such luck, says Dumbledore:
"Then -- it might not be me?" said Harry. "I am afraid," said Dumbledore..."that there is no doubt that it is you." "But you said -- Neville was born at the end of July too -- and his mum and dad --" "You are forgetting the next part of the prophecy, the final identifying feature of the boy who could vanquish Voldemort...Voldemort himself would 'mark him as his equal.' And so he did, Harry. He chose you , not Neville. He gave you the scar that has proved both blessing and curse. "But he might have chosen wrong!" said Harry. "He might have marked the wrong person!" "He chose the boy he thought most liekly to be a danger to him," said Dumbledore..."and in marking you with that scar, he did not kill you, as he intended, but gave you powers and a future, which have fitted you to escape him not once, but four times so far..."
Dumbledore's answer to Harry is that there was no wrong choice for Voldemort to make. Whomever he saw as the greatest threat, whoever he marked, would be his enemy, and eventually have to face him. This fits with JK Rowling's overall theme of personal choice: we are not defined by our abilities, but by our choices. Harry became the Prophecy Boy, not because he is the great-grandson of so-and-so, or the mixture of this house or that house's bloodlines. Harry became the Prophecy Boy because Voldemort chose him. Had Voldemort chosen Neville, it would be his burden to carry.
A little insight in to this, I think, will show us where things are going to go with Harry and Voldemort. Voldemort's essence (indeed, even his name, the French Vol-de-Mort) represent a Flight from Death. Voldemort is terrified of one thing only: death. He does not wish to die, to fade from this world. Because of this, he can not love. When we love, we invest a part of our selves in another person, but in doing so, we open our selves up to pain and loss. Because when a loved one dies, when they leave this world, they take a part of us with them, and we can never get that part back. It is a bitter bargain that we make. Voldemort, fearing Death in any form, refuses to love, refuses to invest part of himself in others. When he hears of one who will vanquish him, he sets out to destroy that person, and all connected to him.
And here is the trick. Voldemort goes to kill Harry and his parents. Harry, who is saved by the love of his mother, has a preternatal connection to both Death and Love. Part of Harry is gone from the beginning, his parents having sacrificied themselves to save him. Harry knows of Death, and is not afraid of it. In the Death Room at the end of Book 5, Harry is drawn to Death, to the voices behind the veil, unlike the others (apart from Luna). Harry's connection to Death allows him to love without fear. He has experienced Death, the pain that comes from losing someone you have invested part of your soul in.
This knowledge of Death gives Harry the ability to Love. His soul is already incomplete, his parents having died before he knew them. But this gives Harry the ability to love, to invest in others without fear of Death taking it away.
And who gave this to Harry? Voldemort did. By killing his parents, Voldemort created the exact type of person who will have the power to defeat him, the person who Loves, and does not fear Death. Dumbledore says as much to Harry, intimating to him that his one strength over Voldemort comes from his ability to love. It is with this Love that Harry will overcome Voldemort, unafraid to die to protect that which he cares about.
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Elatia Fishbane - Aug 29, 2003 3:54 pm (#4 of 383)
That's pretty much how I took it, my guess is that DD took it that way, too - then again, I haven't been able to come up with a different way of looking at it.
I'm curious about the "Neither can live while the other survives" part. I think this is a bit ambiguous as well - it would have been a lot more straight forward if it said "neither can live while the other is alive," but since it isn't stated like that, it leaves a lot of room for interpretation. Alos, is it just implying that they'll constantly find themselves at battle with eachother - or does it mean that each of them will actually suffer from some sort of inner destruction while they're both alive?
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Sly Girl - Aug 29, 2003 5:24 pm (#5 of 383)
Yes! I think JKR went out of her way to make that part a little confusing. I'm fairly sure we'll get one of those 'D'oh!' moments after she reveals something on down the line. Does anyone else think that while we *know* the prophecy, we haven't learned all there is to know about it?
Maybe I'm just paranoid. lol
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Hem Hem - Aug 29, 2003 5:29 pm (#6 of 383)
I think you're right, Sly Girl. Such a huge revelation as the prophesy CAN'T be something too easy to guess or interpret. Knowing JKR, there's going to be something twisted going on with the prophecy.
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Dr.Filibuster - Aug 29, 2003 5:36 pm (#7 of 383)
The Neville connection is so impressive. Otherwise where would the personal choice factor be that JKR believes in so much?
It's Voldemort's fault that Harry is so powerful now, not the prophecy's, or is it? If he didn't believe in it would it have happened anyway? Would it be Neville if he had chosen Neville?
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Sly Girl - Aug 29, 2003 5:46 pm (#8 of 383)
That's what makes it so interesting to me. Basically what the theory above is saying is that Voldemort gave the power to defeat him to Harry because he marked him as his equal. There is nothing we know that points to things working out the same, had he picked Neville as his victim. Would someone have died to protect Neville? Would Neville be different than what he is now?
I like the part in the theory about 'love' being what Voldemort gave to Harry, albeit inadvertently. Because Harry was saved by his mother's love, he has been saved, again and again, in one way or another. And it continues to be something Voldemort just can't 'get'.
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Vicky Leery - Aug 29, 2003 5:49 pm (#9 of 383)
What bothers me is this: if "neither can live while the other survives," then how could it be that they have coexisted for fifteen years so far?
What if there's a prophesied event that's supposed to happen, which wasn't mentioned straight away- and event that one of them must not survive? Maybe that's why the word wasn't "live," but "survive."
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Elatia Fishbane - Aug 29, 2003 6:26 pm (#10 of 383)
Well, Voldemort admitted that he was really weak and wasn't really alive until he shared a head with Quirrell, even that wasn't really living. After that he was 'weaker than ever' *skips to the point*, I don't think Old Morty's technically been alive more than just over a year.. maybe?
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Gina R Snape - Aug 29, 2003 9:58 pm (#11 of 383)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
So, the theory says there's someone with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord. But it says nothing about Tom Riddle.
Now, Harry does not want to be a murderer. And he possesses some kind of magic related to love. It's that magic which protects him in PS/SS when Quirrell tries to touch him. It's also that magic which forces Voldemort to, er, lose his "grip" on the boy in the MoM scene at the end of OoP.
So, what if Harry's power of love will lead him to finding a way to redeem Voldemort? Because then, the Dark Lord will not survive. But Tom Riddle could get his humanity back. I think it's no small coincidence that Dumbledore referred to him as Tom, and that there is a purposeful reason why JKR goes to great lengths in the series to let us know that Voldemort has tried to flee his humanity and changed his name as part of that.
As for the co-existence...well, I too think Voldemort didn't really exist for many years. At least not in a proper body, befitting the description of existence in a way that would genuinely qualify co-existence.
Oh, and one more thing. (I know it's been brought up before, but...) does this mean Harry can't die except by Voldemort? He can't be run over by a bus? Or hexed to death by (fill in name of enemy here...Malfoy...Bellatrix...etc). Or poisoned by Snape. Or by accident during another one of Dobby's little stunts to 'help' him? etc.
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Sly Girl - Aug 29, 2003 11:17 pm (#12 of 383)
Hmm very interesting, Gina... hmm... check out what I wrote about the name Tom Riddle on the Lord Voldemort thread, it sort of connects with what you're saying.
I think some people think that yes, it means Harry can't be killed unless by Voldemort. I'm not sure how they would double check that though seeing as Harry probably won't volunteer to be killed. I'm not sure what I personally believe though.. it's confusing.
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Ulrikke - Aug 30, 2003 3:25 am (#13 of 383)
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I don't think it means that Harry *can't* die except by Voldemort, but that he *won't* die except by Voldemort. At least not before he's killed Voldemort... Oh, I don't know... it *is* very confusing.
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Pinky - Aug 30, 2003 6:50 am (#14 of 383)
La la narf!
Gina, I've thought a bit along those same lines. I've also wondered about the "fate worse than death" that Dumbledore refers to. What else could that be for Voldemort, than to have his magical powers stripped away and be forced to live as a muggle for the rest of his life? If, as you are saying, it is the "Dark Lord" that needs to be vanquished and not Tom Riddle, I can see a resolution looking something like that.
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Gina R Snape - Aug 30, 2003 7:21 am (#15 of 383)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Well, I hadn't thought about stripping him of his powers altogether. Is that even possible? I wonder.
But he did make himself "less human" when he became LV. So, I do think making him "more human" again would be a severe punishment to him. I tend to think of this, though, less in terms of his magical ability and more in terms of physical and emotional pain. Does that make sense?
Sly Girl, I'll go have a look at your thoughts on the LV thread. I'm very curious!
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Professor Kosh - Aug 30, 2003 7:23 am (#16 of 383)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
I don't think that Tom Riddle is in any way separate from Voldemort (a la Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker). Nothing I've read in the books so far leads me to believe that Riddle is in any way redeemable. He killed his own father, caused the death of a fellow student for racist reasons, has been responsible for the deaths of many. Also, don't forget that in Philosopher's Stone, he kills and drinks the blood of a unicorn. That act alone would damn him. The "Dark Lord" is Riddle.
Further, I think the reason DD calls him "Tom" is the same as why he wouldn't go along with the "he who must not be named" business. He does not fear Voldemort, and he doesn't respect Riddles pretensiousness by calling him "Voldemort" to his face. DD is saying to Voldemort, "I know exactly who you are. I don't fear you."
Just my opinion
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Gina R Snape - Aug 30, 2003 7:32 am (#17 of 383)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Well, I do agree that changing his name to Lord Voldemort is more than a bit pretentious. But, I am a social worker by profession. So, I guess I believe there is hope for even Lord Voldemort to change his ways.
Not to mention, how powerful is the power of love in the wizarding world? Maybe it's the one thing Tom Riddle never had, that could change him. I guess we'll just have to wait and see...
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Gabrielle D - Aug 30, 2003 9:48 am (#18 of 383)
meep
Dumbledore fought Voldy at the MoM, knowing he could not kill him. The Prophecy stated somthing like: either will die at the hand of the other. This means that no one could kill Voldy at all unless it's Harry. Because this thing is both ways, does it mean that no one could kill Harry unless it is Voldy? Does it mean that if Harry would get into a car accident he would live or if someone (other than Voldy) put avada kadavra on him, he would live again?
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Professor Kosh - Aug 30, 2003 10:48 am (#19 of 383)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
No, i think the prophecy means no one *will* kill either of them before the final showdown, not that they *can't* be killed (this, of course, gets into the who future as predestined vs. mutable). If Harry were to get in a fatal car accident, he is just as likely to be killed as anyone else in the car. The prophecy only implies that he *will* not.
As for hoping Lord Voldemort could change his ways, I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. Volde is no longer human, and he crossed that line some time ago. His soul is dead and gone; nothing to redeem (but it is a very kind sentiment; I admire those who can do social work). Tom Riddle is long dead. His only redemtion would be the destruction of the Voldemort creature.
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Detail Seeker - Aug 30, 2003 1:15 pm (#20 of 383)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
The way we got to "know" Tom Riddle in CoS shows me, that the difference between him and Voldemort is only a gradual one. The traits in his character, he developed in becoming Lord Voldemort, were the dominant ones in Tom Riddle already. He has psychologically, not physically, developed himself to his full blossom.So I do not see a way of redeeming him.
But all of this should belong to the LV thread...
So, two main possibilities or making the prophecy reality were proposed. The hope to kill the LV in Tom Riddle,who will survive redeemed variant on the one hand and the Harry will kill variant on the other, with the variations, that Harry either survives or gets killed, by Voldemort or somebody else, too. Perhaps, we should not let the possibility of Voldemort killing Harry after having lost all of his followers out of thought. It would be the most realistic one, for it would show, that the victory of Evil (whatever this is) can be postponed, but it survives and every generation has to fight its own fight against it. An ending: Everything is good now and forever and the Order just has to bemoan its dead - many as there will certainly be- would be too easy for this series.
Another alternative: Voldemort gets killed, but stays as a ghost, that has been forgotten to be silenced. He sees his vision smashed, is unable to do anything against i, but will be able to induce coming generations. The silenced ghost version would be, what I expect to be Dumbledore´s idea of something worse than death.
Uh, this has become a long post.
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Gabrielle D - Aug 30, 2003 2:25 pm (#21 of 383)
meep
We haven't heard of anything non-human becomming ghosts... could they? Because Voldy isn't human, he couldn't become a ghost, right?
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Landman - Aug 30, 2003 7:20 pm (#22 of 383)
Prophecies in most literature is extremely flawed, and open to wide interpretation. There is nothing that says this prophecy is complete, or accurate. In fact, for neither can live while the other survives, is clearly inaccurate, for they both are living just fine. If you interpret this to mean Voldemort's body 'died' when he gave Harry the scar, this would mean the prophecy was fulfilled and is done.
Also, if you believe the prophecy, assuming Voldemort and Dumbledore are at least as smart as we are, then they would surely realize that Harry and Voldy are immortal and can't be killed except by each other. So why would Dumbledore bother fighting Voldy in book 5, and why would Voldy put up a shield to protect himself?
Regarding Tom Riddle -- I see him as a separate person. This is someone that Voldemort used to be, but has since transformed. Simply changing his name did not make him the Dark Lord -- there is more to this story than we have heard yet. I think Dumbledore referring to Voldy as Tom is an act of defiance, and is a way for DD to show he has no fear of him. In all great works of literature, the main villain has to be someone beyond redemption. Remember that Darth Vader was not the main villain - the Emperor was; Vader worked for him. In HP, Voldemort is the main baddie, however, the stage is set for redemption by Wormtail, or another Death Eater.
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Carina - Aug 30, 2003 8:39 pm (#23 of 383)
and her killer bunny rabbit
I totally agree with everything that was said about Voldy/Tom being truly evil and neither can be redeemed, but I'm hoping that this 'Voldy dies, but Tom lives' thing happens, because I really don't want to see Harry kill anyone.
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Leprechaun Jack! - Aug 30, 2003 9:43 pm (#24 of 383)
The cow says...moo, the sheep says...baa, and the Bear says WOOF.
Neither can live while the other survives
I think there is a fundamental difference between "living" and "surviving"
While Voldy is alive Harry is basically unable to live his life, he constantly has to worry if Voldy and the DE's (a new singing group) are after him.
While Harry is alive Voldy is unable to get on with his plans of being the Big Bad, because he is consumed with getting rid of Harry.
If one or the other (neither) was to Die (can live) then the other(survivor) could get on with his life (be it good or bad).
Jack
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Hem Hem - Aug 30, 2003 9:54 pm (#25 of 383)
Something intersting just hit me. The prophecy is written in ambiguous words that are very open to interpretation. Now, when the HP books are translated into foreign languages, the structure of the other languages sometimes require the words to be less ambiguous... for example, in Hebrew, there's no gender-neutral pronoun at all... The fact that Professor Sinistra is female is considered cannon bevause the translators of the Portuguese HP books needed to know her gender when they translated the books, and they asked JKR for more details.
So maybe, I was thinking, some of the ambiguity of the sentences in the prophecy will become clearer once the translations come out... is this a reasonable assumption?
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Sly Girl - Aug 30, 2003 9:55 pm (#26 of 383)
Quoth Landman: "and why would Voldy put up a shield to protect himself?"
Well.. technically, Voldemort doesn't know that part of the prophecy, remember? He only heard the first part, about the thrice defied, born in July stuff. He doesn't know about the either must die/neither can live excerpt.
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Landman - Aug 30, 2003 10:06 pm (#27 of 383)
OMG! I've been quoth'd -- how wude.
You know, Sly, if you're going to hold me to what actually happened in the book, that will severely limit my ability to respond to you're theories.
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cara - Aug 31, 2003 4:57 pm (#28 of 383)
People keep talking about the co-existance thing, I didn't read it like that. The prophecy says "Niether can live while the other survives" and I translated it one of them will die and the other will live on. Maybe I'm too simple minded, i dunno.
Why didn't Dumbledore kill Voldermort? He is powerful enough. Voldermort assumed it was because Dumbledore thought he was above that. Or maybe it's something else. Maybe Dumbledore didn't kill him because he knew that was Harry's battle. Or some wierd force held him back. hmm.
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mollis - Aug 31, 2003 5:11 pm (#29 of 383)
Or maybe Dumbledore knew that he wouldn't be able to completely get rid of Voldemort. The prophecy implies that Harry is the "one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" (emphasis on the ONE). Perhaps Dumbledore would be able to nearly-kill Voldemort or reduce him to something resembling who he was after the backfire of the AK, but I don't think Dumbledore can truly vanquish Harry, if the prophecy is to be believed. I think that this is Harry's fight because he truly is the only one who can get rid of Voldemort truly and completely.
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Cezar - Aug 31, 2003 5:13 pm (#30 of 383)
Edited by Aug 31, 2003 5:18 pm
Liam Conner,
actualy if the prophecy states that neither one *will* die by the hands of anybody else other than the "other" ( harry or Voldemort)then it is also stating that neighter can... Let me explain... This occurs( Spelling ?I am brazilian so sorry about spelling errors) because the prophecy has predicted that unti one of them kills the other, they cant die, so if harry were to step in front of a bus, he wouldn´t dye, because the prophecy would have seen that and would have seen that he survived untill he kills voldemort...It seems that the prophecy is unchangable ( speeling ?)(Probably why Dumbledore didn´t try to go back in time in PoA to kill pettigrew) so therefore I come to the conclusion that neither harry or VV can die from anotehr cause even if they run in front of a bus... get it ?
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rettoP yrraH - Aug 31, 2003 10:38 pm (#31 of 383)
Half of what I say is meaningless
Maybe we can take Firenzie(whatever)s Say into the Fray...He said Human's are no good at future telling. Now the Minestry thinks differnt by keeping all of them[prophesys] but, we have to take the centures words into account. And the Minestry has been wrong before.
As McGonnagal said 'Dividation is the most imprecise form magic...'
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MeaninglessTorture - Aug 31, 2003 10:55 pm (#32 of 383)
Edited by Kip Carter Sep 1, 2003 2:57 am
I have edited this thread in the hopes that both MeaninglessTorture and others will understand certain things that do not set well on this Forum...the lack of capital letters when they should be used. Under normal situations, I would delete this post; however I chose to edit it instead this time. I may not be so lenient in the future. I left the original and added the corrected version. I did add a few punctuation marks where needed.
Please take your time and make sure your post is worth being published on this Forum. -Kip
hmmm, I was thinking, since its either harry kills voldy or voldy kills harry, does that mean that harry cant die of any other way except voldy killing him? so he is safe as long as voldemort is out of the picture, unless he has killed him? man, I am confusing myself.
well, I guess he could be tortured into insanity any ways rather than being killed, or get the dementors kiss, and voldemort could destroy his body. or maybe I read the prophecy wrong.
whips out order of the phoenix and begins flipping through pages*
----- Edited version below -----
Hmmm, I was thinking! Since it's either Harry kills Voldy or Voldy kills Harry, does that mean that Harry can't die of any other way except Voldy killing him? So he is safe as long as Voldemort is out of the picture, unless he has killed him? Man, I am confusing myself.
Well, I guess he could be tortured into insanity any ways rather than being killed, or get the dementors kiss, and Voldemort could destroy his body. Or maybe I read the prophecy wrong.
whips out Order of the Phoenix and begins flipping through pages*
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Professor Kosh - Sep 1, 2003 9:21 am (#33 of 383)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Another thing that I haven't seen addressed much is the definitions of the words 'live' and 'survive'. To me, the concept of 'live' can also mean more than just being alive, but can imply that one simply cannot have much of a life while the other survives. Certainly Harry hasn't had much of a life because of Volde's survival: repeated mortal peril year after year, forced to remain with the criminally abusive Dursleys, etc.. In turn, Volde lost almost all he had achieved because of infant Harry's survival, and he has been thwarted by Harry repeatedly (Philosopher's Stone, the Basilisk, the wand battle between them at the end of GoF) and, even more importantly, many know of it. He has lost some of the pure, unreasoned fear that he used to thrive on, and the world is now alerted to him far earlier than he planned.
So, my point is while, currently, both are 'alive', neither is really 'living'. Something to think about, eh?
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Professor Kosh - Sep 1, 2003 9:25 am (#34 of 383)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Also, one other point. I saw mentioned several posts ago the battle between DD and Volde. Many seem to make the assumption that DD could, if he chose to, simply wipe the floor with Volde. Why this assumption? Certainly DD is powerful, but so is Volde. I'm not saying that DD would not win in a magical battle, but I think it is wrong to assume it would be easy, a certainty, or even without wider consequences. Who knows what kind of magical forces might have to be unleashed to defeat someone such as Voldemort?
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Landman - Sep 1, 2003 4:51 pm (#35 of 383)
Is there any thought on why Voldemort waited one year before making his move on Harry? If Voldy knew the beginnin of the prophecy then why wait -- what additional info did he need in order to make his decision between Neville and Harry?
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mischa fan - Sep 1, 2003 4:55 pm (#36 of 383)
Easy being green, it is not
Didn't they mention in PoA that Voldemort was after the Potters for awhile, maybe it took 1 year for him to catch up with them.
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Gina R Snape - Sep 1, 2003 5:50 pm (#37 of 383)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
::leers at Professor Kosh for taking the DADA position away from my Severus::
I don't think we know why. But I suspect it might be because of a combination of things:
a) figuring out which kid(s) fit the prophecy might've taken some time;
b) finding said kid(s) might've taken some more time;
c) He might have been occupied with other activities leading up to it.
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Joost! - Sep 2, 2003 4:57 am (#38 of 383)
Second line of information
And remember DD thinking Tom Riddle was probably the most brilliant student ever to study at Hogwarts.
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Professor Kosh - Sep 2, 2003 5:55 pm (#39 of 383)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
My dear Mrs. Snape, what makes you think I took that position away from Severus? He DOES have a cover to keep, you know. A cover that DD seems to think is better suited at Potions.
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Denise P. - Sep 2, 2003 6:06 pm (#40 of 383)
Ravenclaw Pony
Like I pointed out in another thread, this Forum is not the place to role play in any form. Please take it over to St Mungo's on the FanFiction Forum.
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Bubotuber Puss - Sep 3, 2003 11:42 am (#41 of 383)
So, splendid theories about the technicalities of the phophesy... I am very interested in How the actual fulfillment of the prophesy will happen. I mean we all love Harry and think he has done incredible things, but will he Really be powerful enough after his seventh year to defeat The most powerful evil wizard of all time?
I mean to say since DD is the only wizard Volemort ever feared, do you think even Dumbledore was that powerful when he finished his seventh year at Hogwarts?
No, I think it would be impossible for the final Harry vs. Voldy match to be a Gandalf vs. Saruman battle of the master wizards. I think it would be insulting to the world that Rowling has created.
No, I am interested in theories in How Harry will vanquish the Dark Lord. Each time he has thwarted Voldy in the first 5 books it has been because of some fluke that Voldy hasn't expected, like the wands linking and the priori incantem. Could the whole series be ended by some fluke that neither Harry or Voldy expected?
My personal theory on how is that the Power of Love theme in the books will somehow lead to Harry understanding and controlling this extreme power of Love that he has "in his skin". That Harry will actually consciously use this power to vanquish the Dark Lord of his own power of Love and that after that his scar will disappear, his strange "in his skin" power will leave, and he will be free to live his life finally with (Cho/Hermione/_____). The End happily Ever after.
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OkieAngel - Sep 3, 2003 12:00 pm (#42 of 383)
Here's a possibility I was discussing with my younger brother concerning the prophecy...
Harry will have to sacrifice himself in order to truly rid the world of Voldemort. He will be showing the greatest love for his friends and mankind. Perhaps this will happen in "The" final battle, or maybe it will be something he realises he has to do and plans for, as we assume Lily did.
Do I want to see this happen? No, I want to see Harry triumph over Voldy and the DE's, then go on to live happily ever after with the love of his life and a half dozen kids.
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Olivia Wood - Sep 3, 2003 3:24 pm (#43 of 383)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
What did Lily plan for? I thought it was just because she refused to give up her son, even though she knew Voldemort would kill her that the whole 'sacrifice' magic came into efect, and she didn't really plan on anything. Doesn't Voldemort say something like 'the protection your mother so unwittingly provided' or something like that? Or are you refering to something else?
Anyway, I think the Harry's actually going to plan out the final confrontation, since it's impossible for him to win by pure strength, and it would be kind of dissapointing if he won by accident... Right now I'm partial to maybe Harry switching appearances with somebody (Neville) via Polyjuice potion, and catching Voldie off guard or something...
And no Happily-Ever-After's. I always find those depressing.
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Denise S. - Sep 3, 2003 3:56 pm (#44 of 383)
We are not a cult, we're just slightly obsessed and mentally unstable. There's a difference. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
You find happily-ever-after endings depressing??? ;-)
Is there anything left of Lily's charm that protects Harry directly? I know that it did up til the GoF rebirthing scene, and I know that Harry's love of Sirius drove Voldemort out of his (Harry's) body, but the direct power of Lily's love charm doesn't seem to protect Harry as it did in PS.
While it would be boring for Harry to win by some odd fluke (the way he has in, oh, all the books so far), I don't see him suddenly becoming enlightened enough to understand how to use the power of love to his advantage. How could he? He's really only just starting to understand it, and if it's something that seems to be being studied by the DoM, the chance of Harry somehow knowing and planning when to use it vs. Voldemort seems smaller than the chance of him defeating Voldemort by yet another fluke.
In my opinion.
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OkieAngel - Sep 3, 2003 4:05 pm (#45 of 383)
Olivia, I was referring to a theory that I and some of the others around here have that Lily had actually performed an ancient spell/charm that required her sacrifice for Harry's life. This was discussed (pro's and con's) on another thread as to why she didn't fight Voldy, wand in hand. Do we have canon evidence, no, but as with all things Potter, I believe there is more to her "death scene" than meets the eye. How does this relate to the prophecy? Well, if it were me, and I had been told the most powerful dark wizard of all time was drawing a bead on my child, I know I would search and re-search for anything at all to thwart him.
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Prefect Marcus - Sep 3, 2003 5:34 pm (#46 of 383)
"Anyone can cook"
There is a difference between "Won't" and "Can't". I doubt very much that Harry or Tom can let their guard down. "Oh Gee, I guess since only the other guy can kill me, I don't have to be looking out for myself except when he is around." Harry and Tom are going to have to guard against attacks all the time. The prophecy states only that only Harry has a chance of succeeding against Tom.
Harry does not have to be a murderer. Murder is the deliberate illegal taking of another human's life, with the emphasis on 'illegal'. It is legal in every culture and system of laws to kill in self-defense. So if Harry kills Tom in self-defense, it is not murder.
As to fate worse than death, I have long suspected that Tom is going to get 'kissed'. Perhaps Harry will stun Tom, and a Dementor ally of Tom will kiss him before Harry can stop him. No more soul, no more problem.
Marcus
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Olivia Wood - Sep 3, 2003 5:41 pm (#47 of 383)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
You think Voldemort has any soul left to get sucked out?
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Denise S. - Sep 3, 2003 6:56 pm (#48 of 383)
We are not a cult, we're just slightly obsessed and mentally unstable. There's a difference. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Well, what else was left when his body was destroyed when the AK backfired back in 1981? (It was '81, right?)
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OkieAngel - Sep 3, 2003 10:16 pm (#49 of 383)
Excellent point, Marcus. Remember the Aurors were authorized to use the Unforgivables near the end of the last war. Harry has already experimented with "Crucio", and even though he has thus far refrained from killing even when given the opportunity, I think he realizes it's a whole different quidditch match when it comes to Voldy.
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Sinister Kittens - Sep 4, 2003 5:01 am (#50 of 383)
I've put myself on Lurk only status, sorry I haven't been chatting but I have been reading about you all ;-).
I think the fact that he is prepared to use Crucio against Bellatrix does indicate a change within Harry (even though he was in an extremely emotional state at the time). But I was wondering about the "gleam of triumph" (not an exact quote) in Dumbledores eyes when he found that Voldemort had used Harry's blood to 'resurect' himself. Any clues?
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Oh! And that's a bad miss!
I think he understands it perfectly, which is why he shed that single tear. I don't think it means anything else.
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Viola Intonada - Aug 29, 2003 1:47 pm (#2 of 383)
The prophecy (in it's own way) says that Harry has to bring an end to the Dark Lord. I don't think he actually has to kill Tom Riddle.
Besides, Dumbledore has admitted once that he was wrong. I don't think I could handle DD being wrong again. Oh, the horror! gasp!
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Sly Girl - Aug 29, 2003 1:58 pm (#3 of 383)
Okay, what I meant about the ambigousness of the prophecy, was this..
Logically there are two parts to the prophecy: the first is "either must die at the hand of the other..." This uncommon verbiage can be unclear at first read. Try replacing "either" with the phrase "one of the two" to make it easier to understand. The new phrase reads: "one of the two must die at the hand of the other." This states that the vanquisher (Harry) must kill the Dark Lord (Voldemort) or Voldy must kill Harry.
A few quick points: First, it does not rule out both of them dying. It’s quite possible for Harry to kill Voldy and then at some later time die at the hand of a third person or of natural causes.
Second, this part of the prophecy doesn’t preclude the odd possibility of both dying at each other’s hand, as in a old-west-style duel in which each participant simultaneously and lethally shoots the other as he himself is about to die.
Third, if athird person —not Harry and not Voldy—does kill Harry or Voldy it will have to happen after the other one is already dead at the other’s hand. That is, in most cases while both Harry and Voldemort are alive, no one else can kill either of them. We say in most cases because there is an exception to this claim typified by the following. Suppose Voldy feeds Harry a slow acting poison that will kill Harry, but not for several weeks. In the meantime Neville kills Voldy. Neville has killed Voldy while both Harry and Voldy were alive, but still Harry is soon to die at Voldy’s hand fulfilling the prophecy. Notice that in this case Neville can not kill Harry. For if he did, then neither Harry would have killed Voldy nor would Voldy have killed Harry.) Harry has been killed at Voldy’s hand; he just hasn’t died…yet.
In summary, excluding the bizarre or unusual, Harry must kill Voldemort (and then someone or something else could kill Harry) or Voldemort must kill Harry (and then someone or something else could kill Voldemort). But, neither can die by anyone else’s hand before one of them (or both of them) is killed by the other.
Now consider this...
Just for the record, let's set the text down:
The One with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies....and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...The one with the power to vaquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."
Dumbledore tells Harry that this prophecy could have applied to two people: Harry and Neville. Upon hearing this, Harry is hopeful that perhaps this was all a big mistake. Call up Voldemort, let him know, he's got the wrong guy. No such luck, says Dumbledore:
"Then -- it might not be me?" said Harry. "I am afraid," said Dumbledore..."that there is no doubt that it is you." "But you said -- Neville was born at the end of July too -- and his mum and dad --" "You are forgetting the next part of the prophecy, the final identifying feature of the boy who could vanquish Voldemort...Voldemort himself would 'mark him as his equal.' And so he did, Harry. He chose you , not Neville. He gave you the scar that has proved both blessing and curse. "But he might have chosen wrong!" said Harry. "He might have marked the wrong person!" "He chose the boy he thought most liekly to be a danger to him," said Dumbledore..."and in marking you with that scar, he did not kill you, as he intended, but gave you powers and a future, which have fitted you to escape him not once, but four times so far..."
Dumbledore's answer to Harry is that there was no wrong choice for Voldemort to make. Whomever he saw as the greatest threat, whoever he marked, would be his enemy, and eventually have to face him. This fits with JK Rowling's overall theme of personal choice: we are not defined by our abilities, but by our choices. Harry became the Prophecy Boy, not because he is the great-grandson of so-and-so, or the mixture of this house or that house's bloodlines. Harry became the Prophecy Boy because Voldemort chose him. Had Voldemort chosen Neville, it would be his burden to carry.
A little insight in to this, I think, will show us where things are going to go with Harry and Voldemort. Voldemort's essence (indeed, even his name, the French Vol-de-Mort) represent a Flight from Death. Voldemort is terrified of one thing only: death. He does not wish to die, to fade from this world. Because of this, he can not love. When we love, we invest a part of our selves in another person, but in doing so, we open our selves up to pain and loss. Because when a loved one dies, when they leave this world, they take a part of us with them, and we can never get that part back. It is a bitter bargain that we make. Voldemort, fearing Death in any form, refuses to love, refuses to invest part of himself in others. When he hears of one who will vanquish him, he sets out to destroy that person, and all connected to him.
And here is the trick. Voldemort goes to kill Harry and his parents. Harry, who is saved by the love of his mother, has a preternatal connection to both Death and Love. Part of Harry is gone from the beginning, his parents having sacrificied themselves to save him. Harry knows of Death, and is not afraid of it. In the Death Room at the end of Book 5, Harry is drawn to Death, to the voices behind the veil, unlike the others (apart from Luna). Harry's connection to Death allows him to love without fear. He has experienced Death, the pain that comes from losing someone you have invested part of your soul in.
This knowledge of Death gives Harry the ability to Love. His soul is already incomplete, his parents having died before he knew them. But this gives Harry the ability to love, to invest in others without fear of Death taking it away.
And who gave this to Harry? Voldemort did. By killing his parents, Voldemort created the exact type of person who will have the power to defeat him, the person who Loves, and does not fear Death. Dumbledore says as much to Harry, intimating to him that his one strength over Voldemort comes from his ability to love. It is with this Love that Harry will overcome Voldemort, unafraid to die to protect that which he cares about.
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Elatia Fishbane - Aug 29, 2003 3:54 pm (#4 of 383)
That's pretty much how I took it, my guess is that DD took it that way, too - then again, I haven't been able to come up with a different way of looking at it.
I'm curious about the "Neither can live while the other survives" part. I think this is a bit ambiguous as well - it would have been a lot more straight forward if it said "neither can live while the other is alive," but since it isn't stated like that, it leaves a lot of room for interpretation. Alos, is it just implying that they'll constantly find themselves at battle with eachother - or does it mean that each of them will actually suffer from some sort of inner destruction while they're both alive?
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Sly Girl - Aug 29, 2003 5:24 pm (#5 of 383)
Yes! I think JKR went out of her way to make that part a little confusing. I'm fairly sure we'll get one of those 'D'oh!' moments after she reveals something on down the line. Does anyone else think that while we *know* the prophecy, we haven't learned all there is to know about it?
Maybe I'm just paranoid. lol
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Hem Hem - Aug 29, 2003 5:29 pm (#6 of 383)
I think you're right, Sly Girl. Such a huge revelation as the prophesy CAN'T be something too easy to guess or interpret. Knowing JKR, there's going to be something twisted going on with the prophecy.
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Dr.Filibuster - Aug 29, 2003 5:36 pm (#7 of 383)
The Neville connection is so impressive. Otherwise where would the personal choice factor be that JKR believes in so much?
It's Voldemort's fault that Harry is so powerful now, not the prophecy's, or is it? If he didn't believe in it would it have happened anyway? Would it be Neville if he had chosen Neville?
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Sly Girl - Aug 29, 2003 5:46 pm (#8 of 383)
That's what makes it so interesting to me. Basically what the theory above is saying is that Voldemort gave the power to defeat him to Harry because he marked him as his equal. There is nothing we know that points to things working out the same, had he picked Neville as his victim. Would someone have died to protect Neville? Would Neville be different than what he is now?
I like the part in the theory about 'love' being what Voldemort gave to Harry, albeit inadvertently. Because Harry was saved by his mother's love, he has been saved, again and again, in one way or another. And it continues to be something Voldemort just can't 'get'.
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Vicky Leery - Aug 29, 2003 5:49 pm (#9 of 383)
What bothers me is this: if "neither can live while the other survives," then how could it be that they have coexisted for fifteen years so far?
What if there's a prophesied event that's supposed to happen, which wasn't mentioned straight away- and event that one of them must not survive? Maybe that's why the word wasn't "live," but "survive."
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Elatia Fishbane - Aug 29, 2003 6:26 pm (#10 of 383)
Well, Voldemort admitted that he was really weak and wasn't really alive until he shared a head with Quirrell, even that wasn't really living. After that he was 'weaker than ever' *skips to the point*, I don't think Old Morty's technically been alive more than just over a year.. maybe?
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Gina R Snape - Aug 29, 2003 9:58 pm (#11 of 383)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
So, the theory says there's someone with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord. But it says nothing about Tom Riddle.
Now, Harry does not want to be a murderer. And he possesses some kind of magic related to love. It's that magic which protects him in PS/SS when Quirrell tries to touch him. It's also that magic which forces Voldemort to, er, lose his "grip" on the boy in the MoM scene at the end of OoP.
So, what if Harry's power of love will lead him to finding a way to redeem Voldemort? Because then, the Dark Lord will not survive. But Tom Riddle could get his humanity back. I think it's no small coincidence that Dumbledore referred to him as Tom, and that there is a purposeful reason why JKR goes to great lengths in the series to let us know that Voldemort has tried to flee his humanity and changed his name as part of that.
As for the co-existence...well, I too think Voldemort didn't really exist for many years. At least not in a proper body, befitting the description of existence in a way that would genuinely qualify co-existence.
Oh, and one more thing. (I know it's been brought up before, but...) does this mean Harry can't die except by Voldemort? He can't be run over by a bus? Or hexed to death by (fill in name of enemy here...Malfoy...Bellatrix...etc). Or poisoned by Snape. Or by accident during another one of Dobby's little stunts to 'help' him? etc.
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Sly Girl - Aug 29, 2003 11:17 pm (#12 of 383)
Hmm very interesting, Gina... hmm... check out what I wrote about the name Tom Riddle on the Lord Voldemort thread, it sort of connects with what you're saying.
I think some people think that yes, it means Harry can't be killed unless by Voldemort. I'm not sure how they would double check that though seeing as Harry probably won't volunteer to be killed. I'm not sure what I personally believe though.. it's confusing.
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Ulrikke - Aug 30, 2003 3:25 am (#13 of 383)
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I don't think it means that Harry *can't* die except by Voldemort, but that he *won't* die except by Voldemort. At least not before he's killed Voldemort... Oh, I don't know... it *is* very confusing.
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Pinky - Aug 30, 2003 6:50 am (#14 of 383)
La la narf!
Gina, I've thought a bit along those same lines. I've also wondered about the "fate worse than death" that Dumbledore refers to. What else could that be for Voldemort, than to have his magical powers stripped away and be forced to live as a muggle for the rest of his life? If, as you are saying, it is the "Dark Lord" that needs to be vanquished and not Tom Riddle, I can see a resolution looking something like that.
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Gina R Snape - Aug 30, 2003 7:21 am (#15 of 383)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Well, I hadn't thought about stripping him of his powers altogether. Is that even possible? I wonder.
But he did make himself "less human" when he became LV. So, I do think making him "more human" again would be a severe punishment to him. I tend to think of this, though, less in terms of his magical ability and more in terms of physical and emotional pain. Does that make sense?
Sly Girl, I'll go have a look at your thoughts on the LV thread. I'm very curious!
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Professor Kosh - Aug 30, 2003 7:23 am (#16 of 383)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
I don't think that Tom Riddle is in any way separate from Voldemort (a la Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker). Nothing I've read in the books so far leads me to believe that Riddle is in any way redeemable. He killed his own father, caused the death of a fellow student for racist reasons, has been responsible for the deaths of many. Also, don't forget that in Philosopher's Stone, he kills and drinks the blood of a unicorn. That act alone would damn him. The "Dark Lord" is Riddle.
Further, I think the reason DD calls him "Tom" is the same as why he wouldn't go along with the "he who must not be named" business. He does not fear Voldemort, and he doesn't respect Riddles pretensiousness by calling him "Voldemort" to his face. DD is saying to Voldemort, "I know exactly who you are. I don't fear you."
Just my opinion
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Gina R Snape - Aug 30, 2003 7:32 am (#17 of 383)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Well, I do agree that changing his name to Lord Voldemort is more than a bit pretentious. But, I am a social worker by profession. So, I guess I believe there is hope for even Lord Voldemort to change his ways.
Not to mention, how powerful is the power of love in the wizarding world? Maybe it's the one thing Tom Riddle never had, that could change him. I guess we'll just have to wait and see...
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Gabrielle D - Aug 30, 2003 9:48 am (#18 of 383)
meep
Dumbledore fought Voldy at the MoM, knowing he could not kill him. The Prophecy stated somthing like: either will die at the hand of the other. This means that no one could kill Voldy at all unless it's Harry. Because this thing is both ways, does it mean that no one could kill Harry unless it is Voldy? Does it mean that if Harry would get into a car accident he would live or if someone (other than Voldy) put avada kadavra on him, he would live again?
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Professor Kosh - Aug 30, 2003 10:48 am (#19 of 383)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
No, i think the prophecy means no one *will* kill either of them before the final showdown, not that they *can't* be killed (this, of course, gets into the who future as predestined vs. mutable). If Harry were to get in a fatal car accident, he is just as likely to be killed as anyone else in the car. The prophecy only implies that he *will* not.
As for hoping Lord Voldemort could change his ways, I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. Volde is no longer human, and he crossed that line some time ago. His soul is dead and gone; nothing to redeem (but it is a very kind sentiment; I admire those who can do social work). Tom Riddle is long dead. His only redemtion would be the destruction of the Voldemort creature.
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Detail Seeker - Aug 30, 2003 1:15 pm (#20 of 383)
Quod tempus non sanat, sanat ferrum,... so prepare
The way we got to "know" Tom Riddle in CoS shows me, that the difference between him and Voldemort is only a gradual one. The traits in his character, he developed in becoming Lord Voldemort, were the dominant ones in Tom Riddle already. He has psychologically, not physically, developed himself to his full blossom.So I do not see a way of redeeming him.
But all of this should belong to the LV thread...
So, two main possibilities or making the prophecy reality were proposed. The hope to kill the LV in Tom Riddle,who will survive redeemed variant on the one hand and the Harry will kill variant on the other, with the variations, that Harry either survives or gets killed, by Voldemort or somebody else, too. Perhaps, we should not let the possibility of Voldemort killing Harry after having lost all of his followers out of thought. It would be the most realistic one, for it would show, that the victory of Evil (whatever this is) can be postponed, but it survives and every generation has to fight its own fight against it. An ending: Everything is good now and forever and the Order just has to bemoan its dead - many as there will certainly be- would be too easy for this series.
Another alternative: Voldemort gets killed, but stays as a ghost, that has been forgotten to be silenced. He sees his vision smashed, is unable to do anything against i, but will be able to induce coming generations. The silenced ghost version would be, what I expect to be Dumbledore´s idea of something worse than death.
Uh, this has become a long post.
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Gabrielle D - Aug 30, 2003 2:25 pm (#21 of 383)
meep
We haven't heard of anything non-human becomming ghosts... could they? Because Voldy isn't human, he couldn't become a ghost, right?
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Landman - Aug 30, 2003 7:20 pm (#22 of 383)
Prophecies in most literature is extremely flawed, and open to wide interpretation. There is nothing that says this prophecy is complete, or accurate. In fact, for neither can live while the other survives, is clearly inaccurate, for they both are living just fine. If you interpret this to mean Voldemort's body 'died' when he gave Harry the scar, this would mean the prophecy was fulfilled and is done.
Also, if you believe the prophecy, assuming Voldemort and Dumbledore are at least as smart as we are, then they would surely realize that Harry and Voldy are immortal and can't be killed except by each other. So why would Dumbledore bother fighting Voldy in book 5, and why would Voldy put up a shield to protect himself?
Regarding Tom Riddle -- I see him as a separate person. This is someone that Voldemort used to be, but has since transformed. Simply changing his name did not make him the Dark Lord -- there is more to this story than we have heard yet. I think Dumbledore referring to Voldy as Tom is an act of defiance, and is a way for DD to show he has no fear of him. In all great works of literature, the main villain has to be someone beyond redemption. Remember that Darth Vader was not the main villain - the Emperor was; Vader worked for him. In HP, Voldemort is the main baddie, however, the stage is set for redemption by Wormtail, or another Death Eater.
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Carina - Aug 30, 2003 8:39 pm (#23 of 383)
and her killer bunny rabbit
I totally agree with everything that was said about Voldy/Tom being truly evil and neither can be redeemed, but I'm hoping that this 'Voldy dies, but Tom lives' thing happens, because I really don't want to see Harry kill anyone.
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Leprechaun Jack! - Aug 30, 2003 9:43 pm (#24 of 383)
The cow says...moo, the sheep says...baa, and the Bear says WOOF.
Neither can live while the other survives
I think there is a fundamental difference between "living" and "surviving"
While Voldy is alive Harry is basically unable to live his life, he constantly has to worry if Voldy and the DE's (a new singing group) are after him.
While Harry is alive Voldy is unable to get on with his plans of being the Big Bad, because he is consumed with getting rid of Harry.
If one or the other (neither) was to Die (can live) then the other(survivor) could get on with his life (be it good or bad).
Jack
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Hem Hem - Aug 30, 2003 9:54 pm (#25 of 383)
Something intersting just hit me. The prophecy is written in ambiguous words that are very open to interpretation. Now, when the HP books are translated into foreign languages, the structure of the other languages sometimes require the words to be less ambiguous... for example, in Hebrew, there's no gender-neutral pronoun at all... The fact that Professor Sinistra is female is considered cannon bevause the translators of the Portuguese HP books needed to know her gender when they translated the books, and they asked JKR for more details.
So maybe, I was thinking, some of the ambiguity of the sentences in the prophecy will become clearer once the translations come out... is this a reasonable assumption?
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Sly Girl - Aug 30, 2003 9:55 pm (#26 of 383)
Quoth Landman: "and why would Voldy put up a shield to protect himself?"
Well.. technically, Voldemort doesn't know that part of the prophecy, remember? He only heard the first part, about the thrice defied, born in July stuff. He doesn't know about the either must die/neither can live excerpt.
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Landman - Aug 30, 2003 10:06 pm (#27 of 383)
OMG! I've been quoth'd -- how wude.
You know, Sly, if you're going to hold me to what actually happened in the book, that will severely limit my ability to respond to you're theories.
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cara - Aug 31, 2003 4:57 pm (#28 of 383)
People keep talking about the co-existance thing, I didn't read it like that. The prophecy says "Niether can live while the other survives" and I translated it one of them will die and the other will live on. Maybe I'm too simple minded, i dunno.
Why didn't Dumbledore kill Voldermort? He is powerful enough. Voldermort assumed it was because Dumbledore thought he was above that. Or maybe it's something else. Maybe Dumbledore didn't kill him because he knew that was Harry's battle. Or some wierd force held him back. hmm.
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mollis - Aug 31, 2003 5:11 pm (#29 of 383)
Or maybe Dumbledore knew that he wouldn't be able to completely get rid of Voldemort. The prophecy implies that Harry is the "one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" (emphasis on the ONE). Perhaps Dumbledore would be able to nearly-kill Voldemort or reduce him to something resembling who he was after the backfire of the AK, but I don't think Dumbledore can truly vanquish Harry, if the prophecy is to be believed. I think that this is Harry's fight because he truly is the only one who can get rid of Voldemort truly and completely.
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Cezar - Aug 31, 2003 5:13 pm (#30 of 383)
Edited by Aug 31, 2003 5:18 pm
Liam Conner,
actualy if the prophecy states that neither one *will* die by the hands of anybody else other than the "other" ( harry or Voldemort)then it is also stating that neighter can... Let me explain... This occurs( Spelling ?I am brazilian so sorry about spelling errors) because the prophecy has predicted that unti one of them kills the other, they cant die, so if harry were to step in front of a bus, he wouldn´t dye, because the prophecy would have seen that and would have seen that he survived untill he kills voldemort...It seems that the prophecy is unchangable ( speeling ?)(Probably why Dumbledore didn´t try to go back in time in PoA to kill pettigrew) so therefore I come to the conclusion that neither harry or VV can die from anotehr cause even if they run in front of a bus... get it ?
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rettoP yrraH - Aug 31, 2003 10:38 pm (#31 of 383)
Half of what I say is meaningless
Maybe we can take Firenzie(whatever)s Say into the Fray...He said Human's are no good at future telling. Now the Minestry thinks differnt by keeping all of them[prophesys] but, we have to take the centures words into account. And the Minestry has been wrong before.
As McGonnagal said 'Dividation is the most imprecise form magic...'
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MeaninglessTorture - Aug 31, 2003 10:55 pm (#32 of 383)
Edited by Kip Carter Sep 1, 2003 2:57 am
I have edited this thread in the hopes that both MeaninglessTorture and others will understand certain things that do not set well on this Forum...the lack of capital letters when they should be used. Under normal situations, I would delete this post; however I chose to edit it instead this time. I may not be so lenient in the future. I left the original and added the corrected version. I did add a few punctuation marks where needed.
Please take your time and make sure your post is worth being published on this Forum. -Kip
hmmm, I was thinking, since its either harry kills voldy or voldy kills harry, does that mean that harry cant die of any other way except voldy killing him? so he is safe as long as voldemort is out of the picture, unless he has killed him? man, I am confusing myself.
well, I guess he could be tortured into insanity any ways rather than being killed, or get the dementors kiss, and voldemort could destroy his body. or maybe I read the prophecy wrong.
whips out order of the phoenix and begins flipping through pages*
----- Edited version below -----
Hmmm, I was thinking! Since it's either Harry kills Voldy or Voldy kills Harry, does that mean that Harry can't die of any other way except Voldy killing him? So he is safe as long as Voldemort is out of the picture, unless he has killed him? Man, I am confusing myself.
Well, I guess he could be tortured into insanity any ways rather than being killed, or get the dementors kiss, and Voldemort could destroy his body. Or maybe I read the prophecy wrong.
whips out Order of the Phoenix and begins flipping through pages*
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Professor Kosh - Sep 1, 2003 9:21 am (#33 of 383)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Another thing that I haven't seen addressed much is the definitions of the words 'live' and 'survive'. To me, the concept of 'live' can also mean more than just being alive, but can imply that one simply cannot have much of a life while the other survives. Certainly Harry hasn't had much of a life because of Volde's survival: repeated mortal peril year after year, forced to remain with the criminally abusive Dursleys, etc.. In turn, Volde lost almost all he had achieved because of infant Harry's survival, and he has been thwarted by Harry repeatedly (Philosopher's Stone, the Basilisk, the wand battle between them at the end of GoF) and, even more importantly, many know of it. He has lost some of the pure, unreasoned fear that he used to thrive on, and the world is now alerted to him far earlier than he planned.
So, my point is while, currently, both are 'alive', neither is really 'living'. Something to think about, eh?
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Professor Kosh - Sep 1, 2003 9:25 am (#34 of 383)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
Also, one other point. I saw mentioned several posts ago the battle between DD and Volde. Many seem to make the assumption that DD could, if he chose to, simply wipe the floor with Volde. Why this assumption? Certainly DD is powerful, but so is Volde. I'm not saying that DD would not win in a magical battle, but I think it is wrong to assume it would be easy, a certainty, or even without wider consequences. Who knows what kind of magical forces might have to be unleashed to defeat someone such as Voldemort?
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Landman - Sep 1, 2003 4:51 pm (#35 of 383)
Is there any thought on why Voldemort waited one year before making his move on Harry? If Voldy knew the beginnin of the prophecy then why wait -- what additional info did he need in order to make his decision between Neville and Harry?
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mischa fan - Sep 1, 2003 4:55 pm (#36 of 383)
Easy being green, it is not
Didn't they mention in PoA that Voldemort was after the Potters for awhile, maybe it took 1 year for him to catch up with them.
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Gina R Snape - Sep 1, 2003 5:50 pm (#37 of 383)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
::leers at Professor Kosh for taking the DADA position away from my Severus::
I don't think we know why. But I suspect it might be because of a combination of things:
a) figuring out which kid(s) fit the prophecy might've taken some time;
b) finding said kid(s) might've taken some more time;
c) He might have been occupied with other activities leading up to it.
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Joost! - Sep 2, 2003 4:57 am (#38 of 383)
Second line of information
And remember DD thinking Tom Riddle was probably the most brilliant student ever to study at Hogwarts.
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Professor Kosh - Sep 2, 2003 5:55 pm (#39 of 383)
Instructor, Defense Against the Dark Arts
My dear Mrs. Snape, what makes you think I took that position away from Severus? He DOES have a cover to keep, you know. A cover that DD seems to think is better suited at Potions.
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Denise P. - Sep 2, 2003 6:06 pm (#40 of 383)
Ravenclaw Pony
Like I pointed out in another thread, this Forum is not the place to role play in any form. Please take it over to St Mungo's on the FanFiction Forum.
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Bubotuber Puss - Sep 3, 2003 11:42 am (#41 of 383)
So, splendid theories about the technicalities of the phophesy... I am very interested in How the actual fulfillment of the prophesy will happen. I mean we all love Harry and think he has done incredible things, but will he Really be powerful enough after his seventh year to defeat The most powerful evil wizard of all time?
I mean to say since DD is the only wizard Volemort ever feared, do you think even Dumbledore was that powerful when he finished his seventh year at Hogwarts?
No, I think it would be impossible for the final Harry vs. Voldy match to be a Gandalf vs. Saruman battle of the master wizards. I think it would be insulting to the world that Rowling has created.
No, I am interested in theories in How Harry will vanquish the Dark Lord. Each time he has thwarted Voldy in the first 5 books it has been because of some fluke that Voldy hasn't expected, like the wands linking and the priori incantem. Could the whole series be ended by some fluke that neither Harry or Voldy expected?
My personal theory on how is that the Power of Love theme in the books will somehow lead to Harry understanding and controlling this extreme power of Love that he has "in his skin". That Harry will actually consciously use this power to vanquish the Dark Lord of his own power of Love and that after that his scar will disappear, his strange "in his skin" power will leave, and he will be free to live his life finally with (Cho/Hermione/_____). The End happily Ever after.
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OkieAngel - Sep 3, 2003 12:00 pm (#42 of 383)
Here's a possibility I was discussing with my younger brother concerning the prophecy...
Harry will have to sacrifice himself in order to truly rid the world of Voldemort. He will be showing the greatest love for his friends and mankind. Perhaps this will happen in "The" final battle, or maybe it will be something he realises he has to do and plans for, as we assume Lily did.
Do I want to see this happen? No, I want to see Harry triumph over Voldy and the DE's, then go on to live happily ever after with the love of his life and a half dozen kids.
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Olivia Wood - Sep 3, 2003 3:24 pm (#43 of 383)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
What did Lily plan for? I thought it was just because she refused to give up her son, even though she knew Voldemort would kill her that the whole 'sacrifice' magic came into efect, and she didn't really plan on anything. Doesn't Voldemort say something like 'the protection your mother so unwittingly provided' or something like that? Or are you refering to something else?
Anyway, I think the Harry's actually going to plan out the final confrontation, since it's impossible for him to win by pure strength, and it would be kind of dissapointing if he won by accident... Right now I'm partial to maybe Harry switching appearances with somebody (Neville) via Polyjuice potion, and catching Voldie off guard or something...
And no Happily-Ever-After's. I always find those depressing.
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Denise S. - Sep 3, 2003 3:56 pm (#44 of 383)
We are not a cult, we're just slightly obsessed and mentally unstable. There's a difference. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
You find happily-ever-after endings depressing??? ;-)
Is there anything left of Lily's charm that protects Harry directly? I know that it did up til the GoF rebirthing scene, and I know that Harry's love of Sirius drove Voldemort out of his (Harry's) body, but the direct power of Lily's love charm doesn't seem to protect Harry as it did in PS.
While it would be boring for Harry to win by some odd fluke (the way he has in, oh, all the books so far), I don't see him suddenly becoming enlightened enough to understand how to use the power of love to his advantage. How could he? He's really only just starting to understand it, and if it's something that seems to be being studied by the DoM, the chance of Harry somehow knowing and planning when to use it vs. Voldemort seems smaller than the chance of him defeating Voldemort by yet another fluke.
In my opinion.
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OkieAngel - Sep 3, 2003 4:05 pm (#45 of 383)
Olivia, I was referring to a theory that I and some of the others around here have that Lily had actually performed an ancient spell/charm that required her sacrifice for Harry's life. This was discussed (pro's and con's) on another thread as to why she didn't fight Voldy, wand in hand. Do we have canon evidence, no, but as with all things Potter, I believe there is more to her "death scene" than meets the eye. How does this relate to the prophecy? Well, if it were me, and I had been told the most powerful dark wizard of all time was drawing a bead on my child, I know I would search and re-search for anything at all to thwart him.
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Prefect Marcus - Sep 3, 2003 5:34 pm (#46 of 383)
"Anyone can cook"
There is a difference between "Won't" and "Can't". I doubt very much that Harry or Tom can let their guard down. "Oh Gee, I guess since only the other guy can kill me, I don't have to be looking out for myself except when he is around." Harry and Tom are going to have to guard against attacks all the time. The prophecy states only that only Harry has a chance of succeeding against Tom.
Harry does not have to be a murderer. Murder is the deliberate illegal taking of another human's life, with the emphasis on 'illegal'. It is legal in every culture and system of laws to kill in self-defense. So if Harry kills Tom in self-defense, it is not murder.
As to fate worse than death, I have long suspected that Tom is going to get 'kissed'. Perhaps Harry will stun Tom, and a Dementor ally of Tom will kiss him before Harry can stop him. No more soul, no more problem.
Marcus
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Olivia Wood - Sep 3, 2003 5:41 pm (#47 of 383)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
You think Voldemort has any soul left to get sucked out?
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Denise S. - Sep 3, 2003 6:56 pm (#48 of 383)
We are not a cult, we're just slightly obsessed and mentally unstable. There's a difference. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Well, what else was left when his body was destroyed when the AK backfired back in 1981? (It was '81, right?)
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OkieAngel - Sep 3, 2003 10:16 pm (#49 of 383)
Excellent point, Marcus. Remember the Aurors were authorized to use the Unforgivables near the end of the last war. Harry has already experimented with "Crucio", and even though he has thus far refrained from killing even when given the opportunity, I think he realizes it's a whole different quidditch match when it comes to Voldy.
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Sinister Kittens - Sep 4, 2003 5:01 am (#50 of 383)
I've put myself on Lurk only status, sorry I haven't been chatting but I have been reading about you all ;-).
I think the fact that he is prepared to use Crucio against Bellatrix does indicate a change within Harry (even though he was in an extremely emotional state at the time). But I was wondering about the "gleam of triumph" (not an exact quote) in Dumbledores eyes when he found that Voldemort had used Harry's blood to 'resurect' himself. Any clues?
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The Prophecy (Post 51 to 100)
Elanor Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:41 am
siobhan - Sep 4, 2003 12:02 pm (#51 of 383)
Edited by Sep 4, 2003 12:06 pm
I thought 'fate worse than death' was to become a ghost but i think i prefer your theory Marcus. It seems more suitable than having an evil ghost floating around but on that point who exactly is the bloody baron and why was he afraid of death?
The prophecy leaves a lot of possibilities to be discussed though. I like the idea of Harry dying for the greater good once voldie is killed such as dying to save Ron so he can live a happy life with Hermy.Just my thoughts
On the whole gleam of triumph situation i posted on the temporary forum that DD had just realised that Voldie could now be killed. He had become mortal by performing the ritual at the end of GOF. He says he was just glad to get his old body back (Quote???) so DD realised he has enough human in him to die now so explaing the gleam of triumph.IMO of course
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Jenny M. - Sep 4, 2003 3:27 pm (#52 of 383)
I agree with your "gleam of triumph" theory, Giggles. I think it also has to do with the realization that Voldy now shares Wormtail's life-debt to Harry (incurred at the end of PoA.)
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Ladybug220 - Sep 4, 2003 4:55 pm (#53 of 383)
...moves faster than Severus Snape confronted with shampoo
I hadn't thought about the fact that Harry and Wormtail share the life-debt. Good thinking!!
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OkieAngel - Sep 4, 2003 5:32 pm (#54 of 383)
I agree that the "gleam" was for the fact that Voldy is now mortal again. Remember in SS when Hagrid was telling Harry about Voldemort, he made the comment that he didn't think there was enough human left in him for him to die. Now, that is not the case. Voldy is a hodge-podge of human parts; his father's bone, Wormtail's flesh, and Harry's blood. Here's what's interesting to me however, if it holds true that it was Lily's "blood sacrifice" that saved Harry's life, won't that same magic invoke itself again when Voldy tries to kill Harry, only this time it could be from inside him, being as Lily's blood flows in him as well. Could this be how "Love" destroys him? I dunno, it's all bloody confusing...
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timrew - Sep 4, 2003 5:41 pm (#55 of 383)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Reminds me of an old Calypso song about transplants, OkieAngel. It would suit Voldie.....
"I got the heart of an ape,
The liver of a chicken,
The blood of an ox
Through a tube which is drippin'
Through me spleen, I got from a cow,
I was human once, but I'm not sure now!"
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OkieAngel - Sep 4, 2003 5:45 pm (#56 of 383)
As usual Tim, you sum it all up well...
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Denise S. - Sep 4, 2003 6:04 pm (#57 of 383)
We are not a cult, we're just slightly obsessed and mentally unstable. There's a difference. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
So then the whole "gleam of triumph" seems to be due to the fact that Harry can kill Voldemort now and fulfill the prophecy? (whenever I write "fulfill the prophecy," I feel like I'm talking about The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe ) I suppose that makes sense.
Has anyone ever asked JKR about this? *adds to list of questions for JKR*
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OkieAngel - Sep 4, 2003 6:25 pm (#58 of 383)
Me too, Denise! I love those Narnia Chronicles, am trying to get my son to read them while we wait for book 6.
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Patronus - Sep 6, 2003 8:19 am (#59 of 383)
When I first read that line, I thought it meant that both of them have to die in the end.
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Olivia Wood - Sep 6, 2003 8:28 am (#60 of 383)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
So did I. I had to read that part over again, and then Dumbledore's actual explination came as a relief.
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Hazell Tole - Sep 9, 2003 2:54 pm (#61 of 383)
Hi my name is Hazell. I have a niggling question about what Dumbledore says in OTTP and I wondered whether anyone could give me an opinion. What was Dumbledore's plan? Quote: I cared more for your happiness than your knowing the truth, more for your peace of mind than my plan, more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the plan failed
I know that part of the plan was about it being the right time to tell Harry, but even if he had told him everything earlier, I dont see how telling him would of changed the events and deaths. Harry would face the same things even if he did know. And that can't be all the plan. It's just to simple for Dumbledore, I think there was more to "The Plan" maybe?. I hope you know what I mean!
The Plan ..Mmmm, Mmmmm????? My Brain is overworking!
I hope in future books that I do find out what Dumbledore's plan was.
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Olivia Wood - Sep 9, 2003 2:59 pm (#62 of 383)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
I was a little confused about that too... Was 'the Plan' to leave Harry at the Dursleys, and then raise him up once he got to Hogwarts so that he would have the best chance he can to defeat Voldie? Or is there something more to it?
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schoff - Sep 9, 2003 3:02 pm (#63 of 383)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Hazel, that's a great question, and one we are discussing on the Dumbledore thread. Check it out, there's a lot of great ideas there. Personally, I think DD has several long term plans in action, but the one regarding Harry meant that DD had to treat him without regard to Harry's emotional well-being.
Welcome to the Forum, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts!
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OkieAngel - Sep 10, 2003 1:09 am (#64 of 383)
I think DD's initial plan was to use Harry as a means to an end, the way to defeat Voldemort. I think perhaps he had planned to simply train him as one would a soldier and then send him out to do battle. Would make for a rather dull story, though.
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Kirk Wilkins - Sep 12, 2003 3:32 pm (#65 of 383)
I think we fans are spending to much on the the fact that Harry or Voldemort will die and not the second part of the prophecy. Neither can live while the other survives. As the neither is treated as a pronoun, it means not one nor the other. I guess both of them will die! No, just joking. This means, since Voldemort is back, that Harry and Voldemort cannot live full lives. Explains the sudden angst and anger doesn't it? Also the "for" most fans think that means "to the extent of", the obvious. I think it means to the equivalent of. Harry and Voldemort may kill each other off, or they can live their rest of their lives as shadows of their former selves. Note the "MUST" in "Either MUST die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives". Most of us would consider that a fact either must die, or could it be must as in nearly true probability as in "You must be tired?" One of them would kill off the other to save their sanity. Talk about a predicament. Voldemort would kill Harry as soon as possible wouldn't he? This is how I guess the series will turn out. Note that it says Harry has the power to vanquish the Dark Lord, not kill. He will return Voldemort to goodness through the power of forgiveness, and Harry was the only with the power to forgive Voldemort. Voldemort will become good and they both will live. The "shadowness of mind" will only last as Lord Voldemort survives, not Tom Riddle. I ask all fans to deeply study the prophecy with a dictionary like I did to realize the complex work of literary art it is. Or maybe just JKR made it complex so we would not take it simply? This is like what she did with the Quidditch captains. She said it wouldn't expect. It was Angelina Johnson who you would easily suspect, but you didn't because you thought it was someone you wouldn't suspect, and while you were drooling over Neville, you weren't expecting the obvious. JKR plants these things in our mind to trick us yet it is the truth, done slyly.
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Olivia Wood - Sep 12, 2003 3:50 pm (#66 of 383)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
I think we pretty much have to take the prophecy at face value. Remember the second one? "The servant has been chained up these past X years, tonight he will bread free and set out to rejoin his master." (Paraphrased, obviously.) So my point is that the second one wasn't very literal. Analyzing the grammar wouldn't have done us any good, Pettigrew never was really chained by anything, he just chose not to return to Voldie. If anyone's in a position to interpret the prophecy, it's the Squid, and I think we should trust to his interpretation.
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Madame Librarian - Sep 13, 2003 6:12 am (#67 of 383)
All the wonderful foregoing analysis has made my brain hurt, so I am offering an extremely simple theory or partial theory:
"...and either must die at the HAND of the other..."
Wormtail's hand is now part of V. (apologies--I don't remember if it's actually connected to V.'s arm or was just thrown in to the cauldron as part of that "recipe for recovery"--maybe doesn't matter). Wormtail owes a life-debt to Harry. Is there anything here? Could a final attack by V. on Harry ultimately fail because it isn't 100% V. who's attacking but rather the HAND of a chap who actually cannot kill Harry till the debt is re-paid?
This is not really up to the caliber of the rest of the discussion, but it's very early here, and Kirk's word-by-word analysis method made me read the Prophecy and think about each work. The word HAND just kind of jumped out at me. Is this too silly an idea?
Help! Ciao. Barb
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Kirk Wilkins - Sep 13, 2003 7:06 am (#68 of 383)
Actually when I read HAND I thought it meant they had to die not using magic. Cool! A gun fight in Harry Potter would be awesome! Just joking! (:
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*Lady Penelope* - Sep 13, 2003 9:32 am (#69 of 383)
You should never underestimate how important a wardrobe based around the colour pink can be when you are planning to save the world...
I think you might be on to something, Barb -- Wormtail now has a hand from Voldie -- if Harry is the one to go, it might be via Wormtail.
Also, Voldie has part of Harry in him too. (Blood, if I recall correctly) Reckon that means he can't kill Harry until that debt is settled?
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A-is-for-Amy - Sep 13, 2003 11:20 am (#70 of 383)
Mom of 2 boys
The blood he has from Harry is what confuses me. When Harry told Dumbledore that Wormtail had taken some of his blood, Dumbledore jumped up and wanted to see exactly WHERE the blood had been drawn from (the crook of his arm). Why was it important what part of Harry was cut to obtain his blood? THis always jumped out at me as strange, and I wondered, after reading OoP, if it would somehow tie in with the prophecy.
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shepherdess - Sep 13, 2003 11:33 am (#71 of 383)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
Maybe he just wanted to see it because he was concerned about Harry's wound. Although I'm not sure I believe that.
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Madame Librarian - Sep 13, 2003 12:05 pm (#72 of 383)
shepherdess, is it possible he needed to make sure that Harry's arm was not developing a dark mark?
A really goofy idea: Blood circulates 2 ways in the body--towards the heart in veins, away from the heart in arteries. If the source of the blood Wormtail took was from a vein, uh oh, something evil would be implanted in Harry's heart. If, however, the blood came from an artery, the goodness in Harry's heart might "infect" V. So DD needed to check. Nah, this one is just too bizarre....
Ciao. Barb
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shepherdess - Sep 13, 2003 2:06 pm (#73 of 383)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
Actually I was just thinking along the lines of making sure it wasn't infected or something. Or to assure himself there wasn't some kind of poison on the knife? But it's more likely something having to do with the blood protection thing.
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siobhan - Sep 14, 2003 5:00 am (#74 of 383)
What do you think of the other prophecies though. 'at the solstice will come a new' 'and none will come after' when i read this i thought that it definately had some significance in the next two books. Ideas?
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Madame Librarian - Sep 14, 2003 5:56 am (#75 of 383)
Siobahn, could you elaborate a bit? My husband has the book now and I've lost the brain cells that had the "other prophecies" you mentioned on file. Thanks. Ciao. Barb
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schoff - Sep 14, 2003 12:10 pm (#76 of 383)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Madam Librarian: Siobahn is referring to the the two prophecies the DA smashed when using the Reducto spell to escape the DE's.
One was at the solstice will come a new.
The other was and none will come after.
I heard a theory they were inside jokes from JKR. The solstice one meant the date OoP was released (June 21 is the solstice) and the other meant that there will be no more than seven books. Don't know if it's true, though, and I've got no other suggestions of my own.
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Madame Librarian - Sep 14, 2003 2:14 pm (#77 of 383)
Very plausible theories, schoff. With JKR this could be all there is to them, or there could be this and much, much more. Gotta wait and see. Thanks for the memory refresher (we Muggles do have some excellent resources, mostly in the form of great forums and helpful Potter fans).
Ciao. Barb
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zixyer - Sep 14, 2003 2:50 pm (#78 of 383)
Gasp! What if it means that no HP books will come after OotP?!
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schoff - Sep 14, 2003 3:53 pm (#79 of 383)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Edited by Sep 14, 2003 3:53 pm
That would be the form of my boggart, zixyer!
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siobhan - Sep 15, 2003 10:38 am (#80 of 383)
Sorry about not being v. clear. Thanks for clearing that up Schoff. Nice bit of info. too. I like the connection with the books. Good thinking.
Siobhán
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S.E. Jones - Sep 16, 2003 9:48 pm (#81 of 383)
Let it snow!
I don't know if this has been brought up before but a writer with MuggleNet came up with a great breakdown of the prophecy that I thought might interest a few people. She brings up some very interesting points, such as what the line "neither can live while the other survives" means.
Here's a brief excerpt: The following part is a linguistic masterpiece: "born as the seventh month dies." Seven as in the magical number (note how many number sevens there are in the entire series) and the beautiful balancing of "born" and "dies." The death of the month gives birth to the hero; darkness gives birth to light.
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Jenna C - Sep 17, 2003 7:11 pm (#82 of 383)
I'm new, so I don't know if anyone said this before, but on the prophecy in spidery writing was written a date of some sixteen years previously, and below that: S.P.T. to A.P.W.B.D. Dark Lord and (?) Harry Potter
I think that A.P.W.B.D. stands for Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore (Dumbledore says his full name at Harry's hearing),but I can't figure out what S.P.T. stands for. Does anyone know what it stands for and what it could mean?
Jenna
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Hem Hem - Sep 17, 2003 7:16 pm (#83 of 383)
It's Sybil P. Trelawney. As for Trelawney's middle name, your guess is as good as mine!
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LilyP - Sep 17, 2003 7:36 pm (#84 of 383)
That article/editorial on mugglenet is really great. It's in a section called the North Tower. The site is down right now, but I read it the other day. It's definitely worth the read.
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S.E. Jones - Sep 17, 2003 7:38 pm (#85 of 383)
Let it snow!
Sybil P. Trewlany...hm... Maybe the P. is for "Pheobe" (as in Pheobus Apollo) or "Pythia" (as in Pythius, or Pythion).
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Susurro Notities - Sep 17, 2003 8:23 pm (#86 of 383)
S.E. Jones thank you for the reference to the article. It was very interesting. I read the prophecy just as the author of the article said, in other words I focused on the last part. The article shed light on the rest of the prophecy and brought many new interpretations.
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Neville Longbottom - Sep 18, 2003 3:29 am (#87 of 383)
I have read on the mugglenet forum a few weeks ago, that Trelawney's full name in the italian Prisoner of Azkaban edition is Sybill Pandora Trelawney. Of course this would fit with the "P" as well as with her constant foretelling of doom. But I have no idea, how reliable this poster is, as I don't normally visit the mugglenet forums and I also don't read the italian Potter books. Maybe someone from Italy can confirm the name?
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OkieAngel - Sep 19, 2003 9:08 pm (#88 of 383)
I have long been intrigued (well, since reading GoF) about how JKR is going to tie in the fact that Voldie is indebted to Wormatail and to Harry for his new body. I posted this thought waaayy back on this thread. Here's a portion:
*Voldy is a hodge-podge of human parts; his father's bone, Wormtail's flesh, and Harry's blood. Here's what's interesting to me however, if it holds true that it was Lily's "blood sacrifice" that saved Harry's life, won't that same magic invoke itself again when Voldy tries to kill Harry, only this time it could be from inside him, being as Lily's blood flows in him as well. Could this be how "Love" destroys him?**
How this is going to tie-in in to future plot lines is anyone's guess, but it should give us deprived fans here at the Forum plenty to disect and discuss.
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S.E. Jones - Sep 19, 2003 9:27 pm (#89 of 383)
Let it snow!
This might be better suited to the Voldemort or Harry thread. We used to have a thread on how Harry might kill Voldemort on the EZboards but it didn't get transferred in the move and I can't find an old one here.
EDIT: Okay, OkieAngel, try Possible Deaths in Future Books, that seems the best place.....
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Wendelin the Weird - Sep 25, 2003 1:09 am (#90 of 383)
burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Ummm... so if Voldie knows that Dumbledore cant kill him, why is he afraid of him?! hee hee I mean, isnt that the part of the prophesy that he knows? That one of the boys would bring his downfall... not DD. So why is he afraid of him? ((Maybe its just my late night brain dysfunction here....))
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Joost! - Sep 25, 2003 1:36 am (#91 of 383)
Second line of information
If doesn't say DD can't kill You-Know-Who. It says Harry (or Neville) has the power to vanquish him. Maybe DD can use "The One" as a weapon.
It could happen like this: DD uses Harry's hand to kill LV. Let's just hope the hand is still attached to Harry's arm.
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Wendelin the Weird - Sep 25, 2003 12:09 pm (#92 of 383)
burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Bleargh! Lets hope! ha haa
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LilyP - Sep 25, 2003 3:15 pm (#93 of 383)
Actually, there is a difference between dying and vanquishing. Here is the definition:
van•quish [ vángkwish ] (past van•quished, past participle van•quished, present participle van•quish•ing, 3rd person present singular van•quish•es)
transitive verb
1. defeat in battle: to defeat an opponent or opposing army in a battle or fight
2. defeat in competition: to prove convincingly superior to somebody in a contest, competition, or argument
3. overcome emotion: to overcome, suppress, or subdue an emotion, feeling, or idea
[14th century. Formed from Old French venquis , from veintre , from Latin vincere “conquer” (source of English convince, victory, and evict).]
This brings me back to the idea that Voldemort will not die, but will revert back to Tom Riddle - and will be reformed. Although I would not mind seeing the end of Voldemort.
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Caitlin McCoy - Sep 25, 2003 3:50 pm (#94 of 383)
Fierce are the winds that I blow before me
Voldemort doesn't know the full extent of the prophesy, does he, now that Harry (inadvertantly) destroyed it. The only way it can be viewed would be withing the Pensieve. So Voldemort doesn't realize that Dumbledore can't kill him. Oh, but he's hoping, isn't he?
~Caitlin
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schoff - Sep 25, 2003 5:36 pm (#95 of 383)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Actually, Caitlin, Voldemort could still get the prophecy...from Trelawney. It's been shown he can get memories out of someone, even if that person is unaware of their knowledge.
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Hem Hem - Sep 25, 2003 8:05 pm (#96 of 383)
That's why Trelawney gets eternal residence in the top tower of Hogwarts.
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Wendelin the Weird - Sep 26, 2003 11:35 pm (#97 of 383)
burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
YES!! OMG that make so much sense! Thanks guys!
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LilyP - Sep 27, 2003 1:51 pm (#98 of 383)
Wow, I had never made that connection for Trelawney. That is Great!! People are always complaining about how she was such a bad choice for Dumbledore to have made, but you're right. He's protecting her!
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Wendelin the Weird - Sep 27, 2003 6:36 pm (#99 of 383)
burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
So it seems especially interesting in that case that Umbridge was trying to oust her from the castle at the same time that Voldemort was trying to get the prophesy from the DoM. Very interesting! I cant wait to find out who she really is! Vile woman...
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LilyP - Sep 30, 2003 7:02 pm (#100 of 383)
Oh, I'd not made the connection with Umbridge either. I always assumed she was only an ignorant, vile follower of Fudge. Wendelin, are you suggesting she is connected to Voldemort and the DE's (except for their undue influence over the ministry due to Fudge's idiocy).
By the way, Wendelin - I love your picture! It makes me giggle!
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Edited by Sep 4, 2003 12:06 pm
I thought 'fate worse than death' was to become a ghost but i think i prefer your theory Marcus. It seems more suitable than having an evil ghost floating around but on that point who exactly is the bloody baron and why was he afraid of death?
The prophecy leaves a lot of possibilities to be discussed though. I like the idea of Harry dying for the greater good once voldie is killed such as dying to save Ron so he can live a happy life with Hermy.Just my thoughts
On the whole gleam of triumph situation i posted on the temporary forum that DD had just realised that Voldie could now be killed. He had become mortal by performing the ritual at the end of GOF. He says he was just glad to get his old body back (Quote???) so DD realised he has enough human in him to die now so explaing the gleam of triumph.IMO of course
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Jenny M. - Sep 4, 2003 3:27 pm (#52 of 383)
I agree with your "gleam of triumph" theory, Giggles. I think it also has to do with the realization that Voldy now shares Wormtail's life-debt to Harry (incurred at the end of PoA.)
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Ladybug220 - Sep 4, 2003 4:55 pm (#53 of 383)
...moves faster than Severus Snape confronted with shampoo
I hadn't thought about the fact that Harry and Wormtail share the life-debt. Good thinking!!
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OkieAngel - Sep 4, 2003 5:32 pm (#54 of 383)
I agree that the "gleam" was for the fact that Voldy is now mortal again. Remember in SS when Hagrid was telling Harry about Voldemort, he made the comment that he didn't think there was enough human left in him for him to die. Now, that is not the case. Voldy is a hodge-podge of human parts; his father's bone, Wormtail's flesh, and Harry's blood. Here's what's interesting to me however, if it holds true that it was Lily's "blood sacrifice" that saved Harry's life, won't that same magic invoke itself again when Voldy tries to kill Harry, only this time it could be from inside him, being as Lily's blood flows in him as well. Could this be how "Love" destroys him? I dunno, it's all bloody confusing...
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timrew - Sep 4, 2003 5:41 pm (#55 of 383)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Reminds me of an old Calypso song about transplants, OkieAngel. It would suit Voldie.....
"I got the heart of an ape,
The liver of a chicken,
The blood of an ox
Through a tube which is drippin'
Through me spleen, I got from a cow,
I was human once, but I'm not sure now!"
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OkieAngel - Sep 4, 2003 5:45 pm (#56 of 383)
As usual Tim, you sum it all up well...
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Denise S. - Sep 4, 2003 6:04 pm (#57 of 383)
We are not a cult, we're just slightly obsessed and mentally unstable. There's a difference. ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
So then the whole "gleam of triumph" seems to be due to the fact that Harry can kill Voldemort now and fulfill the prophecy? (whenever I write "fulfill the prophecy," I feel like I'm talking about The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe ) I suppose that makes sense.
Has anyone ever asked JKR about this? *adds to list of questions for JKR*
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OkieAngel - Sep 4, 2003 6:25 pm (#58 of 383)
Me too, Denise! I love those Narnia Chronicles, am trying to get my son to read them while we wait for book 6.
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Patronus - Sep 6, 2003 8:19 am (#59 of 383)
When I first read that line, I thought it meant that both of them have to die in the end.
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Olivia Wood - Sep 6, 2003 8:28 am (#60 of 383)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
So did I. I had to read that part over again, and then Dumbledore's actual explination came as a relief.
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Hazell Tole - Sep 9, 2003 2:54 pm (#61 of 383)
Hi my name is Hazell. I have a niggling question about what Dumbledore says in OTTP and I wondered whether anyone could give me an opinion. What was Dumbledore's plan? Quote: I cared more for your happiness than your knowing the truth, more for your peace of mind than my plan, more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the plan failed
I know that part of the plan was about it being the right time to tell Harry, but even if he had told him everything earlier, I dont see how telling him would of changed the events and deaths. Harry would face the same things even if he did know. And that can't be all the plan. It's just to simple for Dumbledore, I think there was more to "The Plan" maybe?. I hope you know what I mean!
The Plan ..Mmmm, Mmmmm????? My Brain is overworking!
I hope in future books that I do find out what Dumbledore's plan was.
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Olivia Wood - Sep 9, 2003 2:59 pm (#62 of 383)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
I was a little confused about that too... Was 'the Plan' to leave Harry at the Dursleys, and then raise him up once he got to Hogwarts so that he would have the best chance he can to defeat Voldie? Or is there something more to it?
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schoff - Sep 9, 2003 3:02 pm (#63 of 383)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Hazel, that's a great question, and one we are discussing on the Dumbledore thread. Check it out, there's a lot of great ideas there. Personally, I think DD has several long term plans in action, but the one regarding Harry meant that DD had to treat him without regard to Harry's emotional well-being.
Welcome to the Forum, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts!
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OkieAngel - Sep 10, 2003 1:09 am (#64 of 383)
I think DD's initial plan was to use Harry as a means to an end, the way to defeat Voldemort. I think perhaps he had planned to simply train him as one would a soldier and then send him out to do battle. Would make for a rather dull story, though.
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Kirk Wilkins - Sep 12, 2003 3:32 pm (#65 of 383)
I think we fans are spending to much on the the fact that Harry or Voldemort will die and not the second part of the prophecy. Neither can live while the other survives. As the neither is treated as a pronoun, it means not one nor the other. I guess both of them will die! No, just joking. This means, since Voldemort is back, that Harry and Voldemort cannot live full lives. Explains the sudden angst and anger doesn't it? Also the "for" most fans think that means "to the extent of", the obvious. I think it means to the equivalent of. Harry and Voldemort may kill each other off, or they can live their rest of their lives as shadows of their former selves. Note the "MUST" in "Either MUST die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives". Most of us would consider that a fact either must die, or could it be must as in nearly true probability as in "You must be tired?" One of them would kill off the other to save their sanity. Talk about a predicament. Voldemort would kill Harry as soon as possible wouldn't he? This is how I guess the series will turn out. Note that it says Harry has the power to vanquish the Dark Lord, not kill. He will return Voldemort to goodness through the power of forgiveness, and Harry was the only with the power to forgive Voldemort. Voldemort will become good and they both will live. The "shadowness of mind" will only last as Lord Voldemort survives, not Tom Riddle. I ask all fans to deeply study the prophecy with a dictionary like I did to realize the complex work of literary art it is. Or maybe just JKR made it complex so we would not take it simply? This is like what she did with the Quidditch captains. She said it wouldn't expect. It was Angelina Johnson who you would easily suspect, but you didn't because you thought it was someone you wouldn't suspect, and while you were drooling over Neville, you weren't expecting the obvious. JKR plants these things in our mind to trick us yet it is the truth, done slyly.
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Olivia Wood - Sep 12, 2003 3:50 pm (#66 of 383)
Undisputable evidence: Hermione is an alien.
I think we pretty much have to take the prophecy at face value. Remember the second one? "The servant has been chained up these past X years, tonight he will bread free and set out to rejoin his master." (Paraphrased, obviously.) So my point is that the second one wasn't very literal. Analyzing the grammar wouldn't have done us any good, Pettigrew never was really chained by anything, he just chose not to return to Voldie. If anyone's in a position to interpret the prophecy, it's the Squid, and I think we should trust to his interpretation.
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Madame Librarian - Sep 13, 2003 6:12 am (#67 of 383)
All the wonderful foregoing analysis has made my brain hurt, so I am offering an extremely simple theory or partial theory:
"...and either must die at the HAND of the other..."
Wormtail's hand is now part of V. (apologies--I don't remember if it's actually connected to V.'s arm or was just thrown in to the cauldron as part of that "recipe for recovery"--maybe doesn't matter). Wormtail owes a life-debt to Harry. Is there anything here? Could a final attack by V. on Harry ultimately fail because it isn't 100% V. who's attacking but rather the HAND of a chap who actually cannot kill Harry till the debt is re-paid?
This is not really up to the caliber of the rest of the discussion, but it's very early here, and Kirk's word-by-word analysis method made me read the Prophecy and think about each work. The word HAND just kind of jumped out at me. Is this too silly an idea?
Help! Ciao. Barb
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Kirk Wilkins - Sep 13, 2003 7:06 am (#68 of 383)
Actually when I read HAND I thought it meant they had to die not using magic. Cool! A gun fight in Harry Potter would be awesome! Just joking! (:
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*Lady Penelope* - Sep 13, 2003 9:32 am (#69 of 383)
You should never underestimate how important a wardrobe based around the colour pink can be when you are planning to save the world...
I think you might be on to something, Barb -- Wormtail now has a hand from Voldie -- if Harry is the one to go, it might be via Wormtail.
Also, Voldie has part of Harry in him too. (Blood, if I recall correctly) Reckon that means he can't kill Harry until that debt is settled?
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A-is-for-Amy - Sep 13, 2003 11:20 am (#70 of 383)
Mom of 2 boys
The blood he has from Harry is what confuses me. When Harry told Dumbledore that Wormtail had taken some of his blood, Dumbledore jumped up and wanted to see exactly WHERE the blood had been drawn from (the crook of his arm). Why was it important what part of Harry was cut to obtain his blood? THis always jumped out at me as strange, and I wondered, after reading OoP, if it would somehow tie in with the prophecy.
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shepherdess - Sep 13, 2003 11:33 am (#71 of 383)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
Maybe he just wanted to see it because he was concerned about Harry's wound. Although I'm not sure I believe that.
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Madame Librarian - Sep 13, 2003 12:05 pm (#72 of 383)
shepherdess, is it possible he needed to make sure that Harry's arm was not developing a dark mark?
A really goofy idea: Blood circulates 2 ways in the body--towards the heart in veins, away from the heart in arteries. If the source of the blood Wormtail took was from a vein, uh oh, something evil would be implanted in Harry's heart. If, however, the blood came from an artery, the goodness in Harry's heart might "infect" V. So DD needed to check. Nah, this one is just too bizarre....
Ciao. Barb
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shepherdess - Sep 13, 2003 2:06 pm (#73 of 383)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
Actually I was just thinking along the lines of making sure it wasn't infected or something. Or to assure himself there wasn't some kind of poison on the knife? But it's more likely something having to do with the blood protection thing.
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siobhan - Sep 14, 2003 5:00 am (#74 of 383)
What do you think of the other prophecies though. 'at the solstice will come a new' 'and none will come after' when i read this i thought that it definately had some significance in the next two books. Ideas?
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Madame Librarian - Sep 14, 2003 5:56 am (#75 of 383)
Siobahn, could you elaborate a bit? My husband has the book now and I've lost the brain cells that had the "other prophecies" you mentioned on file. Thanks. Ciao. Barb
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schoff - Sep 14, 2003 12:10 pm (#76 of 383)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Madam Librarian: Siobahn is referring to the the two prophecies the DA smashed when using the Reducto spell to escape the DE's.
One was at the solstice will come a new.
The other was and none will come after.
I heard a theory they were inside jokes from JKR. The solstice one meant the date OoP was released (June 21 is the solstice) and the other meant that there will be no more than seven books. Don't know if it's true, though, and I've got no other suggestions of my own.
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Madame Librarian - Sep 14, 2003 2:14 pm (#77 of 383)
Very plausible theories, schoff. With JKR this could be all there is to them, or there could be this and much, much more. Gotta wait and see. Thanks for the memory refresher (we Muggles do have some excellent resources, mostly in the form of great forums and helpful Potter fans).
Ciao. Barb
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zixyer - Sep 14, 2003 2:50 pm (#78 of 383)
Gasp! What if it means that no HP books will come after OotP?!
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schoff - Sep 14, 2003 3:53 pm (#79 of 383)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Edited by Sep 14, 2003 3:53 pm
That would be the form of my boggart, zixyer!
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siobhan - Sep 15, 2003 10:38 am (#80 of 383)
Sorry about not being v. clear. Thanks for clearing that up Schoff. Nice bit of info. too. I like the connection with the books. Good thinking.
Siobhán
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S.E. Jones - Sep 16, 2003 9:48 pm (#81 of 383)
Let it snow!
I don't know if this has been brought up before but a writer with MuggleNet came up with a great breakdown of the prophecy that I thought might interest a few people. She brings up some very interesting points, such as what the line "neither can live while the other survives" means.
Here's a brief excerpt: The following part is a linguistic masterpiece: "born as the seventh month dies." Seven as in the magical number (note how many number sevens there are in the entire series) and the beautiful balancing of "born" and "dies." The death of the month gives birth to the hero; darkness gives birth to light.
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Jenna C - Sep 17, 2003 7:11 pm (#82 of 383)
I'm new, so I don't know if anyone said this before, but on the prophecy in spidery writing was written a date of some sixteen years previously, and below that: S.P.T. to A.P.W.B.D. Dark Lord and (?) Harry Potter
I think that A.P.W.B.D. stands for Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore (Dumbledore says his full name at Harry's hearing),but I can't figure out what S.P.T. stands for. Does anyone know what it stands for and what it could mean?
Jenna
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Hem Hem - Sep 17, 2003 7:16 pm (#83 of 383)
It's Sybil P. Trelawney. As for Trelawney's middle name, your guess is as good as mine!
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LilyP - Sep 17, 2003 7:36 pm (#84 of 383)
That article/editorial on mugglenet is really great. It's in a section called the North Tower. The site is down right now, but I read it the other day. It's definitely worth the read.
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S.E. Jones - Sep 17, 2003 7:38 pm (#85 of 383)
Let it snow!
Sybil P. Trewlany...hm... Maybe the P. is for "Pheobe" (as in Pheobus Apollo) or "Pythia" (as in Pythius, or Pythion).
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Susurro Notities - Sep 17, 2003 8:23 pm (#86 of 383)
S.E. Jones thank you for the reference to the article. It was very interesting. I read the prophecy just as the author of the article said, in other words I focused on the last part. The article shed light on the rest of the prophecy and brought many new interpretations.
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Neville Longbottom - Sep 18, 2003 3:29 am (#87 of 383)
I have read on the mugglenet forum a few weeks ago, that Trelawney's full name in the italian Prisoner of Azkaban edition is Sybill Pandora Trelawney. Of course this would fit with the "P" as well as with her constant foretelling of doom. But I have no idea, how reliable this poster is, as I don't normally visit the mugglenet forums and I also don't read the italian Potter books. Maybe someone from Italy can confirm the name?
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OkieAngel - Sep 19, 2003 9:08 pm (#88 of 383)
I have long been intrigued (well, since reading GoF) about how JKR is going to tie in the fact that Voldie is indebted to Wormatail and to Harry for his new body. I posted this thought waaayy back on this thread. Here's a portion:
*Voldy is a hodge-podge of human parts; his father's bone, Wormtail's flesh, and Harry's blood. Here's what's interesting to me however, if it holds true that it was Lily's "blood sacrifice" that saved Harry's life, won't that same magic invoke itself again when Voldy tries to kill Harry, only this time it could be from inside him, being as Lily's blood flows in him as well. Could this be how "Love" destroys him?**
How this is going to tie-in in to future plot lines is anyone's guess, but it should give us deprived fans here at the Forum plenty to disect and discuss.
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S.E. Jones - Sep 19, 2003 9:27 pm (#89 of 383)
Let it snow!
This might be better suited to the Voldemort or Harry thread. We used to have a thread on how Harry might kill Voldemort on the EZboards but it didn't get transferred in the move and I can't find an old one here.
EDIT: Okay, OkieAngel, try Possible Deaths in Future Books, that seems the best place.....
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Wendelin the Weird - Sep 25, 2003 1:09 am (#90 of 383)
burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Ummm... so if Voldie knows that Dumbledore cant kill him, why is he afraid of him?! hee hee I mean, isnt that the part of the prophesy that he knows? That one of the boys would bring his downfall... not DD. So why is he afraid of him? ((Maybe its just my late night brain dysfunction here....))
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Joost! - Sep 25, 2003 1:36 am (#91 of 383)
Second line of information
If doesn't say DD can't kill You-Know-Who. It says Harry (or Neville) has the power to vanquish him. Maybe DD can use "The One" as a weapon.
It could happen like this: DD uses Harry's hand to kill LV. Let's just hope the hand is still attached to Harry's arm.
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Wendelin the Weird - Sep 25, 2003 12:09 pm (#92 of 383)
burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Bleargh! Lets hope! ha haa
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LilyP - Sep 25, 2003 3:15 pm (#93 of 383)
Actually, there is a difference between dying and vanquishing. Here is the definition:
van•quish [ vángkwish ] (past van•quished, past participle van•quished, present participle van•quish•ing, 3rd person present singular van•quish•es)
transitive verb
1. defeat in battle: to defeat an opponent or opposing army in a battle or fight
2. defeat in competition: to prove convincingly superior to somebody in a contest, competition, or argument
3. overcome emotion: to overcome, suppress, or subdue an emotion, feeling, or idea
[14th century. Formed from Old French venquis , from veintre , from Latin vincere “conquer” (source of English convince, victory, and evict).]
This brings me back to the idea that Voldemort will not die, but will revert back to Tom Riddle - and will be reformed. Although I would not mind seeing the end of Voldemort.
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Caitlin McCoy - Sep 25, 2003 3:50 pm (#94 of 383)
Fierce are the winds that I blow before me
Voldemort doesn't know the full extent of the prophesy, does he, now that Harry (inadvertantly) destroyed it. The only way it can be viewed would be withing the Pensieve. So Voldemort doesn't realize that Dumbledore can't kill him. Oh, but he's hoping, isn't he?
~Caitlin
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schoff - Sep 25, 2003 5:36 pm (#95 of 383)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Actually, Caitlin, Voldemort could still get the prophecy...from Trelawney. It's been shown he can get memories out of someone, even if that person is unaware of their knowledge.
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Hem Hem - Sep 25, 2003 8:05 pm (#96 of 383)
That's why Trelawney gets eternal residence in the top tower of Hogwarts.
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Wendelin the Weird - Sep 26, 2003 11:35 pm (#97 of 383)
burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
YES!! OMG that make so much sense! Thanks guys!
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LilyP - Sep 27, 2003 1:51 pm (#98 of 383)
Wow, I had never made that connection for Trelawney. That is Great!! People are always complaining about how she was such a bad choice for Dumbledore to have made, but you're right. He's protecting her!
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Wendelin the Weird - Sep 27, 2003 6:36 pm (#99 of 383)
burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
So it seems especially interesting in that case that Umbridge was trying to oust her from the castle at the same time that Voldemort was trying to get the prophesy from the DoM. Very interesting! I cant wait to find out who she really is! Vile woman...
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LilyP - Sep 30, 2003 7:02 pm (#100 of 383)
Oh, I'd not made the connection with Umbridge either. I always assumed she was only an ignorant, vile follower of Fudge. Wendelin, are you suggesting she is connected to Voldemort and the DE's (except for their undue influence over the ministry due to Fudge's idiocy).
By the way, Wendelin - I love your picture! It makes me giggle!
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 1440
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The Prophecy (Post 101 to 150)
Elanor Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:44 am
Wendelin the Weird - Oct 1, 2003 12:44 am (#101 of 383)
burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Yes, its been a thought in my mind since the start when we saw her in Harrys trial. At first I thought we were going to find out that she was actually someone in disguise like Lucius Malfoy (because Harry found it so odd that he was so near when he came out of the trial) but then I realized that he couldnt have been in two places at once later in the book.
But it just seems odd to me that she is always being likened to a toad in her descriptions, and something really seems fishy about the fact the Malfoy, a known DE, has been making plans with Fudge, and then she gets appointed there, all the while basically fawning over the Slytherins and taking an approach that would usher in the changes that Malfoy and the DEs would most want (control of Hogwarts, ridding them of DD, Getting Trelawny out of the school where she might no longer be protected, etc...) It just seems like more than coincidence to me that Fudge is allowing it to happen. I think he is a pawn of Malfoy and Umbridge is perhaps too, or is a DE supporter herself.
It is possible that she was just acting under orders for finding fault with Trelawny and known OoTP members like Hagrid etc... but it seels possible that Malfoy may have pulled strings to get "one of his own kind" into a role where they could takeover Hogwarts and in the meantime get info about the prophesy from Trelawny.
On this same note, I think it more than coincidence that Harry felt that pain when she touched him in detention.
Just a thought...
And now Ill stop before I get us all off-topic. *wink*
{And thanks, Ive been searching for AGES for a pic of a good witch burning! ~_~}
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siobhan - Oct 1, 2003 10:12 am (#102 of 383)
'But it just seems odd to me that she is always being likened to a toad in her descriptions' Maybe you can hatch Basilisk eggs under her??
As for the whole Harry feeling pain when Umbridge touches him maybe Voldie was just feeling extra powerful at that moment but that seems very suspicious all the same it is very fishy. Maybe JKR was trying to give us a clue as to who sent the dementors on Harry or to put us off the scent of who she relly is??
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Balderdash - Oct 1, 2003 1:11 pm (#103 of 383)
Dumbledore wants Trelawney to stay 1) incase Voldemort or a Death Eater gets his hands on her and 2) Incase she pops out another prophecy. He'll want to be around or have one of his followers around if she does.
On Umbridge. I don't think Umbridge is a death eater. Like Sirius said "The world is not made out of good people and death eaters". Umbridge is merely power hungry and being in the Minister's pocket is the way to get some. Also if she was a death eater then she would have been there in Book 4 when all the death eaters apparated. There were 3 missing - Crouch, Karkaroff and Snape. All the others were dead in his service.
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::StinkerBell:: - Oct 1, 2003 3:48 pm (#104 of 383)
Use to be LongLiveSnuffles.....
Balderdash~ I just love the way you said that!........Incase she pops out another prophecy......... hee hee! I really don't think Umbrige is a DE. She seems too....I don't know, but I don't think she would be one because she is really to closed to Fudge, and he is opossed to the DE.
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Wendelin the Weird - Oct 1, 2003 6:38 pm (#105 of 383)
burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
But do we know that the inner circle is "all" of the DE's? I mean, cant there be some peripheral ones.. for instance was Bode mentioned at the meeting?
And yes, very good point about the possibly of another prediction! She did just spout a 2nd one, it wouldnt be hard to believe that she could have a third as well!
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zixyer - Oct 1, 2003 8:45 pm (#106 of 383)
Yeah, it really isn't much of a war if it's just like 10 death eaters vs. 20 order members.
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Balderdash - Oct 2, 2003 12:37 am (#107 of 383)
Wendelin - Bode was mentioned, along with the Lestranges, to be in Azkaban. the missing death eaters where snape, crouch and karkaroff, dead death eaters and death eaters in azkaban. No Umbrudge was among them.
Also Voldemort will be wanting to recruit a new generation of Death eaters. Just like Bill and Charlie and those ofn their generation will unite against Voldemort, there will be a new generation of death eaters.
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Fawkes Forever - Oct 2, 2003 1:11 am (#108 of 383)
Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
Wendelin, Siobhan, Balderdash & Snuffles,
we've been having some discussions over on the Umbridge - Who was she really? thread, about her motivation for attempting to oust Trelwaney from Hogwarts.... feel free to add your theories
& Siobhan, it's nice to meet another Siobhan on the forum, thats why I go by the name of Fawkes... its less confusing.
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Neville Longbottom - Oct 2, 2003 2:03 am (#109 of 383)
Bode never was a Death Eater. He was under the Imperius curse, because Avery told Voldemort that Bode was able to get the prophecy (On topic again *g*). It became clear, when Harry dreamed of Voldemort and Rookwood.
But nonetheless, not every Death Eater on the first meeting was mentioned. Voldemort only said the names of a few.
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Wendelin the Weird - Oct 2, 2003 2:38 am (#110 of 383)
burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
So I wonder what Trelawney did before she came to interview with Dumbledore... I mean, were there other prophesies prior to that one? Hmmm...
"The boy would be born to parents who had already defied the Dark Lord three times..." ~Dumbledore
So I wonder then, what did Lily and James do to "defy" Voldemort three times, and the Longbottoms as well?
Defy: 1) to challenge to combat; 2) to goad into trying to perform something; 3) to confront with assured power of resistance {from Websters dictionary online}
And isnt it interesting to imagine all four of those people fighting against Voldemort personally on multiple occasions, much like Harry has done? Especially considering he seems to prefer to have others do his dirty work for him. What circumstances would they have come across him and what he was doing prior to the story we know? We know he wanted to takeover as the most powerful wizard, and that he and his DEs killed a lot of people, but do we really know his plans?
Also, does anyone have any thoughts specifically as to how knowing the prophesy would have been a "weapon"? Knowing that he or Harry would have to kill each other may not have changed anything at all, except that he would know that noone else (including DD) had the power to vanquish him. Is that it?
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Weeny Owl - Oct 2, 2003 9:22 am (#111 of 383)
Defy also means "to renounce faith in" or "to resist attempts at." Defying Voldie three times wouldn't necessarily have to mean in a face-to-face confrontation. It's possible that Voldie sent a Death Eater or two to convince the Potters and the Longbottoms that they should side with the one who is in power, much the same way Draco tried to convince Harry to join in with the "right" people.
As for a weapon... a weapon isn't always a corporeal entity; it can also be a means of gaining an advantage or defending oneself in a conflict. Perhaps Voldie thought that if the Prophecy continued it would state a specific means by which he could defeat Harry and the rest of the Wizarding World. He might also have thought that if the Prophecy stated that one would be born who had the power to vanquish him, it would also give reasons why he could be vanquished and he could find ways to counteract whatever weaknesses he had in his defensive magic.
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siobhan - Oct 2, 2003 9:59 am (#112 of 383)
I don't think Bode was a Death Eater mainly because i believe that Malfoy put him under the imperious curse during the trial. Someone already mentioned that it is possible Bode was hiding beside the DoM while Malfoy and Harry were down there. Malfoy could have easily guessed there was someone guarding it at all times.
& Fawkes it is always nice to meet another Siobhán. So good to know at least one person on this forum can pronounce it, always have that problem
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Aragog Fan - Oct 2, 2003 10:29 am (#113 of 383)
As posted earlier, "vanquish" doesn't necessarily mean kill, but to conquer (Webster's). Why did Lord V pick Harry over Neville? DD points out that LV pick the one most like himself...very telling! And who is LV? Tom Riddle or what used to be Tom Riddle? Can we truly seperate Tom from LV? DD did at the battle at the MofM... OK, so if there are no coincidences with JKR, lets look at Tom and Harry. Both were orphans raised in an unloving enviroment, both half bloods, both tied physically and spiritually to Hogwarts, both with a need to "prove themselves",they even physically resemble each other. If you transplant Harry in Tom's time, they seem almost the same child. But why did Tom go one way and Harry the other? Does "the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" (maybe the ability to love)have anything to do with it? Maybe not. As a social worker, I've learned that barring genetics, experiences are what shape our perceptions on the world. What is Tom's story...what were his experiences before, during and after Hogwarts? How did LV develop? Ok...stay with me...There is a huge psychic connection between LV and Harry. Even though Harry has the ability to expell LV when totally possessed, he did not do so when he was able to access LV's emotions. He even welcomed them. Harry feels he is a "marked man" and feels alone in the world because of his destiny...but is he alone? No.. Tom and Harry share very similar experiences and emotions, but in a different perspective. So, what would happen if Harry learns and understands Tom's journey to becoming LV and developes empathy. Not sympathy, but empathy (there is a difference!). Because Harry is empathetic (and is geared towards saving others), will he begin to try to reach Tom as DD was doing at the MofM? Are Tom and LV "in essence divided" (DD's statement after Harry admits being the snake)? Harry and LV have learned about their connection and it may be that the war against LV might be fought as a battle for Tom's soul. Maybe that's why Harry is the only one to vanquish the Dark Lord. Harry is the only one beside LV that has access to Tom. Oh! and also...when Harry looked at DD and experienced incredible hatred it made me wonder why LV would hate DD much more than anyone else? What happened at Hogwarts during Tom's time as a student? As the snake, LV didn't feel the same degree of hate towards Arthur W. when guarding the door or when dealing with anyone else. Hmmm....
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Sly Girl - Oct 2, 2003 11:22 am (#114 of 383)
Excellent post Aragog Fan... brings up many interesting possiblities and questions.
Try skimming the Lord Voldemort/Tom Riddle posts down below, you might see we've touched a couple of these issues, actually.
I was reading on another thread that despite all actions to the contrary, prophecies have a sneaky way of coming true. So- if that is the case and Harry must accept his hand in the outcome of the future, what will that do to him? Is the prophecy written as such that neither Harry nor Voldemort can escape it?
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S.E. Jones - Oct 2, 2003 12:14 pm (#115 of 383)
Let it snow!
Well, since a prophecy is really only the fated outcome of an event, there is no way either can escape it because no matter what they do they are fated to complete the prophecy in one way or another....
BTW, there is a new installment from Northtower on MuggleNet now. The interpretations of prophecies, in my mind, solve a great amount of the mystery but also open up new questions. It's worth a look....
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Balderdash - Oct 2, 2003 12:47 pm (#116 of 383)
Aragog fan. I discussed the difference between Harry and Tom/Voldemort on a thread about Wormtail's debt.
Both are very similar - both are half bloods, parent dead, looks, need to prove themself. But something very different happened to them.
Tom's muggle family rejected him. It was this snobbery that fueled his hatred against them. Harry's took him. They took him grudgingly and unwillingly but they took him and that has made all the difference.
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BarnMan - Oct 3, 2003 7:59 am (#117 of 383)
I think we may be over-simplifying the meaning of "And either must die at the hand of the other. . ." This is a prophecy, and I don't think it should be taken too literally. I think it could include the possiblilty that Voldemort could order one of his Death Eaters to kill Harry. If such a specific order were given, isn't Voldemort just as responsible, if not more so, for the death of Harry, as the person he ordered to commit the actual murder? Wouldn't Harry's death be on his hands?
I beleive, as I think most of us do, that it will come down to some climatic battle between Voldemort and Harry, but the point I am trying to make is that by the wording of the prophecy, it doesn't have to. I think that would be a very interesting twist to the story.
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zixyer - Oct 3, 2003 1:42 pm (#118 of 383)
I think of all the loopholes that people have dug out of the prophecy BarnMan's is most plausible. It also could mean that Harry might set into a motion a sequence of events that cause Voldemort's downfall.
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Aragog Fan - Oct 5, 2003 8:06 am (#119 of 383)
For some reason, it tugs on my brain that Tom and LV are seperate. JKR has hinted it too much. And if so, what role will Tom play? Where did LV come from? DD knows that Prof. Trewlany is not an "old fraud" (some of the time! and don't be suprised if she adds more to the whats going to happen. Also, Harry has met LV four times and got the better of LV. How long before the prophecy actually happens? Why is it a process instead of an event? Vanquish...not kill... :::frustration::: How long till the sixth book?!?
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Ricky Warner - Oct 5, 2003 5:55 pm (#120 of 383)
Sorry, but what places make yo say that Tom and LV are different. I need to read the books again!
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Thomas Lusk - Oct 10, 2003 10:51 am (#121 of 383)
I think this is being way over analysied. Harry asks Dumbledore if this means he will have to kill Voldy. And Dumbledore says Yes. The word Kill was used not change him back to Tom Riddle but kill.
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Pinky - Oct 10, 2003 11:06 am (#122 of 383)
La la narf!
The exact quote is "so does that mean that... that one of us has got to kill the other one... in the end?" "'Yes,' said Dumbledore." (OoP American edition, ch 37, p.844.) Dumbledore is not omniscient (all-knowing) - he's been wrong before; he can be wrong again! That's why we over analyze!
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Thomas Lusk - Oct 10, 2003 12:22 pm (#123 of 383)
Well, I guess because Dumbledore says yes, so matter of factly, It leads me to believe that it must be so. Otherwise I would expect him to say he isn't sure but that is the way he interprets it.
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Ovate - Oct 15, 2003 7:15 am (#124 of 383)
Hi all. This is really a great forum. All kinds of interesting posts here. I already posted a version of this in the Neville Longbottom thread, but I’m not sure that that was the right place to post it so I’m posting this version here. Sorry if that’s a problem. This is my theory about Neville and the prophecy. Part of the prophecy states that
1) The Dark Lord must mark the One as his equal and 2) The One must have powers the Dark Lord knows not.
When Voldemort learned of the prophecy he set out to eliminate the threat against him, not knowing which boy posed the threat he went after both of them. Its been made quite clear that Voldemort, even though he’s of mixed blood himself, considers only pure-bloods to be his social equals. He thinks of mixed bloods and the muggle born as social inferiors. He offered the Longbottoms a deal to spare Neville because he was the last of a pureblood line. He was an equal in Voldemort’s social circle. If the Longbottoms cooperated, he would spare their son’s life, but instead would cast a spell to remove the magic from him. This might explain why the Death Eaters went after Neville's parents after the curse on Harry backfired. After all, why would the Longbottoms know where Voldemort had gone? But if the Longbottoms had done some sort of deal with Voldemort to protect Neville maybe the Death Eaters thought that the Longbottoms had some how double-crossed them. Its also possible that the Death Eaters were just trying to find out whether there was more to the Prophecy that might tell them what had happened.
On the other hand, maybe Voldemort just thought that it would be bad public relations to kill the last of a pureblood line. Voldemort has been telling his followers that he is a pureblood (why they didn't figure out that this is a lie, I’ll never know). He’s ashamed of being a mixed-blood and maybe afraid of being found out by his followers. Perhaps he spared Neville and tried to kill Harry out of his own shame at being mixed-blood and out of fear of being found out by the Death Eaters. I don't see how Voldemort could be marking either Harry or Neville as his equal in terms of wizard skill. Even by the end of the seventh book I can't see Harry as Voldemort's equal in that regard. But with regard to social equality I can see Voldemort regarding the Longbottoms as equals. Maybe Neville was marked as Voldemort's (social) equal merely by the fact that he didn't kill him straight off as he tried to do with Harry whom he saw as his social inferior (or at least he wanted the Death Eaters to believe that he saw Harry as his social inferior). Maybe Neville was marked as Voldemort's (social) equal in his own eyes and/or those of his followers merely by the fact that he didn't kill him straight off as he tried to do with Harry whom he treated as his inferior. In any case, the spell he cast damaged Neville’s ability to remember things. Because Harry was mixed blood Voldemort felt no compunction against killing him straight out. In a way, the scar that Voldemort gave Harry marked him, in Voldemort’s eyes, as socially inferior. In contrast, the damaged memory Voldemort gave Neville showed that Voldemort regarded him as a social equal. Obviously, since Neville still had a bit of magic left in him, Voldemort must have missed something i.e. Neville had powers the Dark Lord knew not.
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Yavanna - Oct 15, 2003 11:30 am (#125 of 383)
If Harry doesn't kill Voldemort;Voldemort will kill him.It's a fight of stronger.Harry Has to kill Voldemort if he wants to die.Voldemort won't stay still until Harry's dead.That's the fact. Ovate,one thing I don't understand.If this is all about Neville,why are books about Harry?Doesn't make sense.I don't know,but it's not logically to me.
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Ovate - Oct 15, 2003 11:41 am (#126 of 383)
Hi Yavanna.
With regard to the titles of the books, well, Harry has been the focus in all the books so far, but without Dumbledore he would surely have died, at least in book 5. In fact, a case could be made that Dumbledore was the hero of book 5. He saved Harry from Voldemort as well as routing the rest of the Death Eaters. Still the book is called "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix" not "Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix" as its written from Harry's perspective and he is quite heroic. Harry can still be the focus and act in a heroic way in book 7 even if Neville ultimately kills Voldemort. Perhaps Harry saves Neville from Voldemort.
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Susurro Notities - Oct 15, 2003 7:25 pm (#127 of 383)
Ovate, I think Voldemort did mark his equal. He marked the half-blood. Harry is someone who could turn out to be clever and powerful he is not a pureblood who, Voldemort has found, can be tricked and led.
Voldemort may wonder if he chose correctly but I don't think that will change the course of the books. Harry is the protagonist and will remain so.
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Ovate - Oct 16, 2003 8:05 am (#128 of 383)
Hi Susurro
Well Frodo was the protagonist of LOTR but it was Gollum who took the ring into the fires of Mount Doom. And as far as blood is concerned, I'm pretty sure that Dumbledore is a pureblood and he's said to be the only wizard that Voldemort fears.
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Ovate - Oct 16, 2003 8:08 am (#129 of 383)
Also I don't know why Voldemort wouldn't have chosen to eliminate both threats since he couldn't be certain which child would be his potential doom.
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Sinister Kittens - Oct 16, 2003 8:09 am (#130 of 383)
I've put myself on Lurk only status, sorry I haven't been chatting but I have been reading about you all ;-).
Ovate - before the moderators find you.... Lots of people here haven't read the book you refer to. You might want to delete the part of your post where you give too much away!
PS - hope you don't think i'm mean for mentioning this!
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Pinky - Oct 16, 2003 12:14 pm (#131 of 383)
La la narf!
Sinister Kittens, I assume you are referring to Ovate's mention of Lord of the Rings (LOTR). This is a Harry Potter forum, not a LOTR forum, so I'm no more concerned about a comment about the outcome of LOTR than I would be if it was a comment about another book. There have been numerous posts in the past about parallels between other works of literature and Harry Potter, so I think Ovate's comment was valid. LOTR has been out for quite some time now, so if someone does not know the ending and wishes to not read a "spoiler" about it, they may have a hard time doing so. It can hardly be considered a "spoiler" if the series has been out for almost 50 years! As a moderator, I do not "police" the forums, I just try to make sure everyone is having a good time. I think that Ovate was trying to show an example of a story in which the "hero" (Frodo) was not the one who actually accomplished the final downfall of the villain (Sauron) - and was theorizing that perhaps Neville would play a similar role to that of Gollum. That is something I personally have considered before and think that Neville bears much watching, particularly since the prophecy could have referred to him. Now then, I would certainly agree that the post should have been deleted if it had contained a spoiler about book 6! (After I found out how part of book 6 had been leaked to the public! )
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Ovate - Oct 16, 2003 8:02 pm (#132 of 383)
Sinister Kittens, I don't think you're post was in the least bit mean. I thought about making the post about Frodo and Gollum more vague, but couldn't think of a good way of doing that and still making my point. It isn't necessary that Harry be the one to vanquish Voldemort. In fact, if it were certain that Harry would be the one to vanquish Voldemort the books would be much less interesting.
JKR has already done some foreshadowing concerning Harry's "killer instinct". He wouldn't allow Peter Pettigrew, who was indirectly responsible for his parents murders, to be killed by someone else, let alone killing Peter himself. And he couldn't even manage a decent Cruciatus curse on Bellatrix Le Strange immediately after she had killed Sirius. He just doesn't have the killer instinct.
I think that Neville's first name is also a little bit interesting. If the Longbottoms did make a deal with Voldemort to save their son's life that deal would be somewhat akin to the deal that Neville Chamberlain made with Adolf Hitler prior to WWII. Everyone knows of the parallels between Voldemort and Hitler.
Finally, if the Longbottoms made a deal with Voldemort to spare Neville in return for allowing Voldemort to cast a spell to remove the magic from him, perhaps they did their own spell first to hide a bit of Neville's magic from Voldemort. If Uncle Algie knew this, it might make sense of his rather extraordinary efforts to try to bring out some magical ability in Neville.
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Wendelin the Weird - Oct 16, 2003 10:55 pm (#133 of 383)
burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Hmm... Wait a tic. Voldemort's parents were a witch and a complete Muggle. Harrys parents were a wizard (we think anyway - no mention of the Potters being Muggles) and a witch from Muggle parentage. I think there is a bit of a differnce there after all.
In a sense, Harry is a pureblood born of two magical parents, whereas Riddle was born of a magical mum and a Muggle dad. (*snort* Magical Mum! I think Molly Weasley should write a book titled this! ha haa)
What about the Longbottoms? From what we know, they were both a great witch and wizard also, him being an auror and from a wizarding family (Im assuming his Gran that he lives with is his father's mum). So Harry and Neville are actually more alike than either of them and Tom Riddle...
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schoff - Oct 16, 2003 11:59 pm (#134 of 383)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Edited by Oct 17, 2003 12:10 am
I'm under the impression that in the WW (especially as far as the DE's are concerned), children who are born to any muggle or muggle-born have the same standing:
Two Muggle parents = Muggle-Born child ("mudblood")
One Muggle parent + One Muggle-Born parent = Half-Blood
One Muggle-born parent + One Pure-Blooded Parent = Half-Blood
Two Muggle-born parents = Half-Blood
Half-Blood + anyone = Half-Blood
Technically, this makes Harry and Voldemort Half-Bloods. Same was true in Nazi Germany. Didn't one have to go back 4 generations, and if any one ancestor was Jewish, then you were considered Jewish too, even if it wasn't your faith? I do remember that the qualifications for being consider a Jew in the Nazi regime would have listed Hitler as a Jew.
Neville is pure-blood. This is confirmed in CoS (ch11 US185). In that way, he is not Voldemort's equal. Harry is.
EDIT: Wendelin - Neville's dad (Frank Longbottom) is Gran's son. Confirmed in OoP (ch23 US514).
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Madame Librarian - Oct 17, 2003 5:13 am (#135 of 383)
schoff, thanks for the rundown there. It's confusing sometimes to keep straight as evidenced by the number of times in this very forum that we misstate someone's "classification" (eww, I don't even like saying it like that). Since it is awkward to handle, I'm wondering if it was purposely contrived by JKR to further the comparison to the Nazi Germany thing, and cleverly remind us of that awful era. Just a thought....
Ciao. Barb
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Mare - Oct 17, 2003 7:39 am (#136 of 383)
Hem hem
Before we restart this entire discussion again tatataaa:
Lilly P. "Harry Potter: Half-Blood or Pure-Blood?????" 10/20/02 10:24am
Jami JoAnne Russell "Muggle-born Wizards and Wizard-born Muggles..." 1/2/03 4:53pm
Read the threads, they are a fun discussion, but please don't discuss the topic here, unless directly related to the prophecy.
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Willow'sGran - Oct 17, 2003 7:50 pm (#137 of 383)
Pardon me, I'm brand new here. I've been scouring the prophecy forum, but I can't find any reference to one thing. What exactly is "the power the Dark Lord has not"?; the one Dumbledore says Harry has in such quantities? Any ideas? Also, if Dumbledore was revealing everything why didn't he tell Harry what it was?
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Susurro Notities - Oct 17, 2003 8:54 pm (#138 of 383)
Love, and all the powers associated with love: kindness, compassion, loyalty...? That is what I have thought was "the power the Dark Lord has not". I think Dumbledore suggests this. If I were a better Harry Potter scholar I could find the parts of the books that lead me to this conclusion. Unfortunately I am not the scholar others on this forum are.
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S.E. Jones - Oct 17, 2003 9:43 pm (#139 of 383)
Let it snow!
(OotP, ch36, pg816, US)
And I'll see Sirius again....
And as Harry's heart filled with emotion, the creature's coils loosened, the pain was gone....
(OotP, ch 37, pg843)
"I haven't any powers he hasn't got, I couldn't fight the way he did tonight, I cant possess people or -- or kill them --"
"There is a room in the Department of Mysteries," interupted Dumbledore, "that is kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is an once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you."
I think, more than anything else, the last part of that quote, "It was your heart that saved you," is what really points to it being love. There are also lines referring to Voldemort's hatred and underestimation of love throughout the entire series....
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zixyer - Oct 17, 2003 11:26 pm (#140 of 383)
Also, Harry's love for Sirius is what made him go to the Dept. of Mysteries.
So apparently Voldemort has no capacity for love. Imagine what life would be like without love. You might go so far as to call it even worse than death.
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Willow'sGran - Oct 18, 2003 6:33 am (#141 of 383)
I first thought it was love too. But you can't contain love in a room. That's the part that keeps me questioning.
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Susurro Notities - Oct 18, 2003 6:56 am (#142 of 383)
Death doesn't occur when one walks through an arch either. (unless it falls on you )In JKR's world some essence of love might very well be kept in a room.
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Wendelin the Weird - Oct 18, 2003 6:57 am (#143 of 383)
burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Well, there are such things as love potions in the HP universe, so perhaps its not a big container of love, but something that can produce it or send and receive it.. just a thought. Who would think that Death could be contained behind a door or a veil either...
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Willow'sGran - Oct 18, 2003 7:16 am (#144 of 383)
I don't mean to sound obsessive or anything but Love being the power that Harry has and Snake-eyes doesn't just doesn't work. Love is an emotion, it could be the fuel a power needs, but it is not a power in itself. A love potion can't create love, it can only make a person act as though they love. You can't study love, can't quantify it, and it is something that anyone can experience.
I never thought the archway was death. I thought it was a means of magical execution. Something like an electric chair, or a guillotine. I also thought of it as a doorway to death. I never thought of it as THE place where death is.
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Susurro Notities - Oct 18, 2003 7:49 am (#145 of 383)
Edited by Oct 18, 2003 7:50 am
This may be just a semantics discussion but I see love as power. Emotional power is difficult to measure but not impossible.
"You can't study love, can't quantify it, and it is something that anyone can experience."
Love has been studied since time began. Conclusions reached from the study of love are well known and widely accepted. For example children who grow up with love are overwhelmingly more productive, less conflicted, happier.... than children who do not experience much love.
Love is also measurable. The power of love for a friend is widely thought of as less than the extreme amount of love felt for one's child.
Yes anyone can love just as anyone can explode fireworks. Fireworks are still power as is love.
Just as automotive movement is the manifestation of the combined powers of fuel and engine, compassion, kindness, passion, bravery, thoughtfulness... are the manifestations of the power of love.
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Weeny Owl - Oct 18, 2003 8:11 am (#146 of 383)
Susurro - "compassion, kindness, passion, bravery, thoughtfulness... are the manifestations of the power of love."
That's a simply wonderful description, Susurro. I would also add that love has the power to heal.
As for love not being something that can be contained in a room, this is the Wizarding World, after all, so pretty much anything is possible.
When Dumbledore mentions that the force is more wonderful and more terrible than death, etc., I suppose it could depend on which definition of "terrible" JKR is using. She could mean it as "awesome" and not as a synonym for "horrible."
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Thom Matheson - Oct 18, 2003 8:18 am (#147 of 383)
Tell me that Fear, and Hate doesn't raise a physical response. People do strange things out of hate or fear or for that matter sorrow and depression. All evoke physical responses that can be trapped, bottled and stored.
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Susurro Notities - Oct 18, 2003 11:31 am (#148 of 383)
Exactly Tim. Fear and Hate are great examples of emotional power!
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Willow'sGran - Oct 18, 2003 12:57 pm (#149 of 383)
This is going to be a longish post. I've been giving some thought to the power Harry has that Snake-eyes doesn't and I've found references in both the books, and the paralell to WWII that Ms. Rowling uses to reach this decision.
I think the power is Truth. The first hints of this are scenes involving the Mirror of Erised. Harry saw wishes in the mirror. They were indeed things he would have liked to be true, but they weren't. Dumbledore made it a point to tell Harry not to look for the mirror again. He then hid the stone in the mirror. Much the same way Churchill hid the truth about the D-Day invasion in the lies planted on a dead man's body.
In the second book, Harry defeated the memory of Voldemort, with the truth that Voldemort had never become the "Greatest Wizard of all Time". Voldemort never had the courage to test Dumbledore.
In PoA, Harry triumphed over the dememtors, and Pettigrew by demanding the truth.
In GoF Harry survived by being true to himself. First, he made sure that everyone had an equal playing field when he told Cedric about the dragons. Secondly, he refused to leave anyone behind. Third he accepted the fact that Voldemort was stronger than he, but that he could still fight.
We all know about the Occlumency and Legilimency in OoP. I know there is some debate about the Occlumency and what it means. I think both definitions are true, it is the ability to close one's mind, it is also the ability to see through someone else's eyes.
I also think these things tie into the whole "his mother's eyes" thing.
Finally, the thing that is most convincing for me, was Dumbledore's statement about the fountain of magical brethren being a lie. If the Ministry kept a lie on display, then it makes sense that they would attempt to hide the truth.
Truth can be studied, it can be quantified, and it can be manipulated. Truth is not an emotion.
The difference is that while you can study the effects of love, you can declare an amount of love and you can maipulate a person through love, you can't change love itself. Love has no existence independent of conciousness. Neither does any other emotion. Truth does. If everyone on the planet believed that a stone was water; a stone would still be a stone.
This answer also fits well in another thread, like what the gleam in Dumbledore's eyes was about. He might very well have felt triumphant that by taking Harry's blood, Voldemort also removed some of his transferred powers from Harry. Harry's *true* powers, occlumency being one, could now blossom.
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S.E. Jones - Oct 18, 2003 1:32 pm (#150 of 383)
Let it snow!
Willow's Gran: Love is an emotion, it could be the fuel a power needs, but it is not a power in itself. A love potion can't create love, it can only make a person act as though they love. You can't study love, can't quantify it, and it is something that anyone can experience.
I think this fits most of the mysteries studied in the DoM. Death, time, thought, future (which was next to the room with the time turners)...throughout history, these things were considered great mysteries because they couldn't really be quantified and really studied. Psychologists study thought but, as I have found in my psychology class, that a lot is unknown about the human thought process and there are usually at least three different theories to explain everything. Dumbledore said that this "power" was the greatest of all the mysteries studied and I agree. There is no real reason, physiologically, for love. Yes there are certain stimuli that cause certain physiological responses, but there is nothing to show why we become emotionally attached to some things and not to others. Plus, there are several references to Voldemort being disgusted by love, him overlooking it... (OotP, ch37, pg836) "You would be protected by an ancient magic of which he knows, which he despises, and which he has always, therefore, underestimated --- to his cost. I am speaking, of course, of the fact that your mother died to save you. She gave you a lingering protection he never expected, a protection that flows in your veins to this day." (PS, ch17, US) "Your mother died to save you. If there is one thing Voldemort cannot understand, it is love. He didn't realize that love as powerful as your mother's for you leaves it's own mark. Not a scar, no visible sign...to have been loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some protection forever. It is in your very skin. Quirrell, full of hatred, greed, and ambition, sharing his soul with Voldemort, could not touch you for this reason. It was agony to touch a person marked by something so good." There are, of course, others....
As for truth being quantifiable, as someone who has taken many ethics classes, truth isn't as cut and dry as you might think....
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burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Yes, its been a thought in my mind since the start when we saw her in Harrys trial. At first I thought we were going to find out that she was actually someone in disguise like Lucius Malfoy (because Harry found it so odd that he was so near when he came out of the trial) but then I realized that he couldnt have been in two places at once later in the book.
But it just seems odd to me that she is always being likened to a toad in her descriptions, and something really seems fishy about the fact the Malfoy, a known DE, has been making plans with Fudge, and then she gets appointed there, all the while basically fawning over the Slytherins and taking an approach that would usher in the changes that Malfoy and the DEs would most want (control of Hogwarts, ridding them of DD, Getting Trelawny out of the school where she might no longer be protected, etc...) It just seems like more than coincidence to me that Fudge is allowing it to happen. I think he is a pawn of Malfoy and Umbridge is perhaps too, or is a DE supporter herself.
It is possible that she was just acting under orders for finding fault with Trelawny and known OoTP members like Hagrid etc... but it seels possible that Malfoy may have pulled strings to get "one of his own kind" into a role where they could takeover Hogwarts and in the meantime get info about the prophesy from Trelawny.
On this same note, I think it more than coincidence that Harry felt that pain when she touched him in detention.
Just a thought...
And now Ill stop before I get us all off-topic. *wink*
{And thanks, Ive been searching for AGES for a pic of a good witch burning! ~_~}
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siobhan - Oct 1, 2003 10:12 am (#102 of 383)
'But it just seems odd to me that she is always being likened to a toad in her descriptions' Maybe you can hatch Basilisk eggs under her??
As for the whole Harry feeling pain when Umbridge touches him maybe Voldie was just feeling extra powerful at that moment but that seems very suspicious all the same it is very fishy. Maybe JKR was trying to give us a clue as to who sent the dementors on Harry or to put us off the scent of who she relly is??
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Balderdash - Oct 1, 2003 1:11 pm (#103 of 383)
Dumbledore wants Trelawney to stay 1) incase Voldemort or a Death Eater gets his hands on her and 2) Incase she pops out another prophecy. He'll want to be around or have one of his followers around if she does.
On Umbridge. I don't think Umbridge is a death eater. Like Sirius said "The world is not made out of good people and death eaters". Umbridge is merely power hungry and being in the Minister's pocket is the way to get some. Also if she was a death eater then she would have been there in Book 4 when all the death eaters apparated. There were 3 missing - Crouch, Karkaroff and Snape. All the others were dead in his service.
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::StinkerBell:: - Oct 1, 2003 3:48 pm (#104 of 383)
Use to be LongLiveSnuffles.....
Balderdash~ I just love the way you said that!........Incase she pops out another prophecy......... hee hee! I really don't think Umbrige is a DE. She seems too....I don't know, but I don't think she would be one because she is really to closed to Fudge, and he is opossed to the DE.
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Wendelin the Weird - Oct 1, 2003 6:38 pm (#105 of 383)
burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
But do we know that the inner circle is "all" of the DE's? I mean, cant there be some peripheral ones.. for instance was Bode mentioned at the meeting?
And yes, very good point about the possibly of another prediction! She did just spout a 2nd one, it wouldnt be hard to believe that she could have a third as well!
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zixyer - Oct 1, 2003 8:45 pm (#106 of 383)
Yeah, it really isn't much of a war if it's just like 10 death eaters vs. 20 order members.
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Balderdash - Oct 2, 2003 12:37 am (#107 of 383)
Wendelin - Bode was mentioned, along with the Lestranges, to be in Azkaban. the missing death eaters where snape, crouch and karkaroff, dead death eaters and death eaters in azkaban. No Umbrudge was among them.
Also Voldemort will be wanting to recruit a new generation of Death eaters. Just like Bill and Charlie and those ofn their generation will unite against Voldemort, there will be a new generation of death eaters.
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Fawkes Forever - Oct 2, 2003 1:11 am (#108 of 383)
Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
Wendelin, Siobhan, Balderdash & Snuffles,
we've been having some discussions over on the Umbridge - Who was she really? thread, about her motivation for attempting to oust Trelwaney from Hogwarts.... feel free to add your theories
& Siobhan, it's nice to meet another Siobhan on the forum, thats why I go by the name of Fawkes... its less confusing.
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Neville Longbottom - Oct 2, 2003 2:03 am (#109 of 383)
Bode never was a Death Eater. He was under the Imperius curse, because Avery told Voldemort that Bode was able to get the prophecy (On topic again *g*). It became clear, when Harry dreamed of Voldemort and Rookwood.
But nonetheless, not every Death Eater on the first meeting was mentioned. Voldemort only said the names of a few.
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Wendelin the Weird - Oct 2, 2003 2:38 am (#110 of 383)
burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
So I wonder what Trelawney did before she came to interview with Dumbledore... I mean, were there other prophesies prior to that one? Hmmm...
"The boy would be born to parents who had already defied the Dark Lord three times..." ~Dumbledore
So I wonder then, what did Lily and James do to "defy" Voldemort three times, and the Longbottoms as well?
Defy: 1) to challenge to combat; 2) to goad into trying to perform something; 3) to confront with assured power of resistance {from Websters dictionary online}
And isnt it interesting to imagine all four of those people fighting against Voldemort personally on multiple occasions, much like Harry has done? Especially considering he seems to prefer to have others do his dirty work for him. What circumstances would they have come across him and what he was doing prior to the story we know? We know he wanted to takeover as the most powerful wizard, and that he and his DEs killed a lot of people, but do we really know his plans?
Also, does anyone have any thoughts specifically as to how knowing the prophesy would have been a "weapon"? Knowing that he or Harry would have to kill each other may not have changed anything at all, except that he would know that noone else (including DD) had the power to vanquish him. Is that it?
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Weeny Owl - Oct 2, 2003 9:22 am (#111 of 383)
Defy also means "to renounce faith in" or "to resist attempts at." Defying Voldie three times wouldn't necessarily have to mean in a face-to-face confrontation. It's possible that Voldie sent a Death Eater or two to convince the Potters and the Longbottoms that they should side with the one who is in power, much the same way Draco tried to convince Harry to join in with the "right" people.
As for a weapon... a weapon isn't always a corporeal entity; it can also be a means of gaining an advantage or defending oneself in a conflict. Perhaps Voldie thought that if the Prophecy continued it would state a specific means by which he could defeat Harry and the rest of the Wizarding World. He might also have thought that if the Prophecy stated that one would be born who had the power to vanquish him, it would also give reasons why he could be vanquished and he could find ways to counteract whatever weaknesses he had in his defensive magic.
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siobhan - Oct 2, 2003 9:59 am (#112 of 383)
I don't think Bode was a Death Eater mainly because i believe that Malfoy put him under the imperious curse during the trial. Someone already mentioned that it is possible Bode was hiding beside the DoM while Malfoy and Harry were down there. Malfoy could have easily guessed there was someone guarding it at all times.
& Fawkes it is always nice to meet another Siobhán. So good to know at least one person on this forum can pronounce it, always have that problem
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Aragog Fan - Oct 2, 2003 10:29 am (#113 of 383)
As posted earlier, "vanquish" doesn't necessarily mean kill, but to conquer (Webster's). Why did Lord V pick Harry over Neville? DD points out that LV pick the one most like himself...very telling! And who is LV? Tom Riddle or what used to be Tom Riddle? Can we truly seperate Tom from LV? DD did at the battle at the MofM... OK, so if there are no coincidences with JKR, lets look at Tom and Harry. Both were orphans raised in an unloving enviroment, both half bloods, both tied physically and spiritually to Hogwarts, both with a need to "prove themselves",they even physically resemble each other. If you transplant Harry in Tom's time, they seem almost the same child. But why did Tom go one way and Harry the other? Does "the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" (maybe the ability to love)have anything to do with it? Maybe not. As a social worker, I've learned that barring genetics, experiences are what shape our perceptions on the world. What is Tom's story...what were his experiences before, during and after Hogwarts? How did LV develop? Ok...stay with me...There is a huge psychic connection between LV and Harry. Even though Harry has the ability to expell LV when totally possessed, he did not do so when he was able to access LV's emotions. He even welcomed them. Harry feels he is a "marked man" and feels alone in the world because of his destiny...but is he alone? No.. Tom and Harry share very similar experiences and emotions, but in a different perspective. So, what would happen if Harry learns and understands Tom's journey to becoming LV and developes empathy. Not sympathy, but empathy (there is a difference!). Because Harry is empathetic (and is geared towards saving others), will he begin to try to reach Tom as DD was doing at the MofM? Are Tom and LV "in essence divided" (DD's statement after Harry admits being the snake)? Harry and LV have learned about their connection and it may be that the war against LV might be fought as a battle for Tom's soul. Maybe that's why Harry is the only one to vanquish the Dark Lord. Harry is the only one beside LV that has access to Tom. Oh! and also...when Harry looked at DD and experienced incredible hatred it made me wonder why LV would hate DD much more than anyone else? What happened at Hogwarts during Tom's time as a student? As the snake, LV didn't feel the same degree of hate towards Arthur W. when guarding the door or when dealing with anyone else. Hmmm....
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Sly Girl - Oct 2, 2003 11:22 am (#114 of 383)
Excellent post Aragog Fan... brings up many interesting possiblities and questions.
Try skimming the Lord Voldemort/Tom Riddle posts down below, you might see we've touched a couple of these issues, actually.
I was reading on another thread that despite all actions to the contrary, prophecies have a sneaky way of coming true. So- if that is the case and Harry must accept his hand in the outcome of the future, what will that do to him? Is the prophecy written as such that neither Harry nor Voldemort can escape it?
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S.E. Jones - Oct 2, 2003 12:14 pm (#115 of 383)
Let it snow!
Well, since a prophecy is really only the fated outcome of an event, there is no way either can escape it because no matter what they do they are fated to complete the prophecy in one way or another....
BTW, there is a new installment from Northtower on MuggleNet now. The interpretations of prophecies, in my mind, solve a great amount of the mystery but also open up new questions. It's worth a look....
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Balderdash - Oct 2, 2003 12:47 pm (#116 of 383)
Aragog fan. I discussed the difference between Harry and Tom/Voldemort on a thread about Wormtail's debt.
Both are very similar - both are half bloods, parent dead, looks, need to prove themself. But something very different happened to them.
Tom's muggle family rejected him. It was this snobbery that fueled his hatred against them. Harry's took him. They took him grudgingly and unwillingly but they took him and that has made all the difference.
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BarnMan - Oct 3, 2003 7:59 am (#117 of 383)
I think we may be over-simplifying the meaning of "And either must die at the hand of the other. . ." This is a prophecy, and I don't think it should be taken too literally. I think it could include the possiblilty that Voldemort could order one of his Death Eaters to kill Harry. If such a specific order were given, isn't Voldemort just as responsible, if not more so, for the death of Harry, as the person he ordered to commit the actual murder? Wouldn't Harry's death be on his hands?
I beleive, as I think most of us do, that it will come down to some climatic battle between Voldemort and Harry, but the point I am trying to make is that by the wording of the prophecy, it doesn't have to. I think that would be a very interesting twist to the story.
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zixyer - Oct 3, 2003 1:42 pm (#118 of 383)
I think of all the loopholes that people have dug out of the prophecy BarnMan's is most plausible. It also could mean that Harry might set into a motion a sequence of events that cause Voldemort's downfall.
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Aragog Fan - Oct 5, 2003 8:06 am (#119 of 383)
For some reason, it tugs on my brain that Tom and LV are seperate. JKR has hinted it too much. And if so, what role will Tom play? Where did LV come from? DD knows that Prof. Trewlany is not an "old fraud" (some of the time!
and don't be suprised if she adds more to the whats going to happen. Also, Harry has met LV four times and got the better of LV. How long before the prophecy actually happens? Why is it a process instead of an event? Vanquish...not kill... :::frustration::: How long till the sixth book?!? - - - - - - - - - -
Ricky Warner - Oct 5, 2003 5:55 pm (#120 of 383)
Sorry, but what places make yo say that Tom and LV are different. I need to read the books again!
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Thomas Lusk - Oct 10, 2003 10:51 am (#121 of 383)
I think this is being way over analysied. Harry asks Dumbledore if this means he will have to kill Voldy. And Dumbledore says Yes. The word Kill was used not change him back to Tom Riddle but kill.
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Pinky - Oct 10, 2003 11:06 am (#122 of 383)
La la narf!
The exact quote is "so does that mean that... that one of us has got to kill the other one... in the end?" "'Yes,' said Dumbledore." (OoP American edition, ch 37, p.844.) Dumbledore is not omniscient (all-knowing) - he's been wrong before; he can be wrong again! That's why we over analyze!
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Thomas Lusk - Oct 10, 2003 12:22 pm (#123 of 383)
Well, I guess because Dumbledore says yes, so matter of factly, It leads me to believe that it must be so. Otherwise I would expect him to say he isn't sure but that is the way he interprets it.
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Ovate - Oct 15, 2003 7:15 am (#124 of 383)
Hi all. This is really a great forum. All kinds of interesting posts here. I already posted a version of this in the Neville Longbottom thread, but I’m not sure that that was the right place to post it so I’m posting this version here. Sorry if that’s a problem. This is my theory about Neville and the prophecy. Part of the prophecy states that
1) The Dark Lord must mark the One as his equal and 2) The One must have powers the Dark Lord knows not.
When Voldemort learned of the prophecy he set out to eliminate the threat against him, not knowing which boy posed the threat he went after both of them. Its been made quite clear that Voldemort, even though he’s of mixed blood himself, considers only pure-bloods to be his social equals. He thinks of mixed bloods and the muggle born as social inferiors. He offered the Longbottoms a deal to spare Neville because he was the last of a pureblood line. He was an equal in Voldemort’s social circle. If the Longbottoms cooperated, he would spare their son’s life, but instead would cast a spell to remove the magic from him. This might explain why the Death Eaters went after Neville's parents after the curse on Harry backfired. After all, why would the Longbottoms know where Voldemort had gone? But if the Longbottoms had done some sort of deal with Voldemort to protect Neville maybe the Death Eaters thought that the Longbottoms had some how double-crossed them. Its also possible that the Death Eaters were just trying to find out whether there was more to the Prophecy that might tell them what had happened.
On the other hand, maybe Voldemort just thought that it would be bad public relations to kill the last of a pureblood line. Voldemort has been telling his followers that he is a pureblood (why they didn't figure out that this is a lie, I’ll never know). He’s ashamed of being a mixed-blood and maybe afraid of being found out by his followers. Perhaps he spared Neville and tried to kill Harry out of his own shame at being mixed-blood and out of fear of being found out by the Death Eaters. I don't see how Voldemort could be marking either Harry or Neville as his equal in terms of wizard skill. Even by the end of the seventh book I can't see Harry as Voldemort's equal in that regard. But with regard to social equality I can see Voldemort regarding the Longbottoms as equals. Maybe Neville was marked as Voldemort's (social) equal merely by the fact that he didn't kill him straight off as he tried to do with Harry whom he saw as his social inferior (or at least he wanted the Death Eaters to believe that he saw Harry as his social inferior). Maybe Neville was marked as Voldemort's (social) equal in his own eyes and/or those of his followers merely by the fact that he didn't kill him straight off as he tried to do with Harry whom he treated as his inferior. In any case, the spell he cast damaged Neville’s ability to remember things. Because Harry was mixed blood Voldemort felt no compunction against killing him straight out. In a way, the scar that Voldemort gave Harry marked him, in Voldemort’s eyes, as socially inferior. In contrast, the damaged memory Voldemort gave Neville showed that Voldemort regarded him as a social equal. Obviously, since Neville still had a bit of magic left in him, Voldemort must have missed something i.e. Neville had powers the Dark Lord knew not.
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Yavanna - Oct 15, 2003 11:30 am (#125 of 383)
If Harry doesn't kill Voldemort;Voldemort will kill him.It's a fight of stronger.Harry Has to kill Voldemort if he wants to die.Voldemort won't stay still until Harry's dead.That's the fact. Ovate,one thing I don't understand.If this is all about Neville,why are books about Harry?Doesn't make sense.I don't know,but it's not logically to me.
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Ovate - Oct 15, 2003 11:41 am (#126 of 383)
Hi Yavanna.
With regard to the titles of the books, well, Harry has been the focus in all the books so far, but without Dumbledore he would surely have died, at least in book 5. In fact, a case could be made that Dumbledore was the hero of book 5. He saved Harry from Voldemort as well as routing the rest of the Death Eaters. Still the book is called "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix" not "Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix" as its written from Harry's perspective and he is quite heroic. Harry can still be the focus and act in a heroic way in book 7 even if Neville ultimately kills Voldemort. Perhaps Harry saves Neville from Voldemort.
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Susurro Notities - Oct 15, 2003 7:25 pm (#127 of 383)
Ovate, I think Voldemort did mark his equal. He marked the half-blood. Harry is someone who could turn out to be clever and powerful he is not a pureblood who, Voldemort has found, can be tricked and led.
Voldemort may wonder if he chose correctly but I don't think that will change the course of the books. Harry is the protagonist and will remain so.
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Ovate - Oct 16, 2003 8:05 am (#128 of 383)
Hi Susurro
Well Frodo was the protagonist of LOTR but it was Gollum who took the ring into the fires of Mount Doom. And as far as blood is concerned, I'm pretty sure that Dumbledore is a pureblood and he's said to be the only wizard that Voldemort fears.
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Ovate - Oct 16, 2003 8:08 am (#129 of 383)
Also I don't know why Voldemort wouldn't have chosen to eliminate both threats since he couldn't be certain which child would be his potential doom.
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Sinister Kittens - Oct 16, 2003 8:09 am (#130 of 383)
I've put myself on Lurk only status, sorry I haven't been chatting but I have been reading about you all ;-).
Ovate - before the moderators find you.... Lots of people here haven't read the book you refer to. You might want to delete the part of your post where you give too much away!
PS - hope you don't think i'm mean for mentioning this!
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Pinky - Oct 16, 2003 12:14 pm (#131 of 383)
La la narf!
Sinister Kittens, I assume you are referring to Ovate's mention of Lord of the Rings (LOTR). This is a Harry Potter forum, not a LOTR forum, so I'm no more concerned about a comment about the outcome of LOTR than I would be if it was a comment about another book. There have been numerous posts in the past about parallels between other works of literature and Harry Potter, so I think Ovate's comment was valid. LOTR has been out for quite some time now, so if someone does not know the ending and wishes to not read a "spoiler" about it, they may have a hard time doing so. It can hardly be considered a "spoiler" if the series has been out for almost 50 years! As a moderator, I do not "police" the forums, I just try to make sure everyone is having a good time. I think that Ovate was trying to show an example of a story in which the "hero" (Frodo) was not the one who actually accomplished the final downfall of the villain (Sauron) - and was theorizing that perhaps Neville would play a similar role to that of Gollum. That is something I personally have considered before and think that Neville bears much watching, particularly since the prophecy could have referred to him. Now then, I would certainly agree that the post should have been deleted if it had contained a spoiler about book 6! (After I found out how part of book 6 had been leaked to the public! )
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Ovate - Oct 16, 2003 8:02 pm (#132 of 383)
Sinister Kittens, I don't think you're post was in the least bit mean. I thought about making the post about Frodo and Gollum more vague, but couldn't think of a good way of doing that and still making my point. It isn't necessary that Harry be the one to vanquish Voldemort. In fact, if it were certain that Harry would be the one to vanquish Voldemort the books would be much less interesting.
JKR has already done some foreshadowing concerning Harry's "killer instinct". He wouldn't allow Peter Pettigrew, who was indirectly responsible for his parents murders, to be killed by someone else, let alone killing Peter himself. And he couldn't even manage a decent Cruciatus curse on Bellatrix Le Strange immediately after she had killed Sirius. He just doesn't have the killer instinct.
I think that Neville's first name is also a little bit interesting. If the Longbottoms did make a deal with Voldemort to save their son's life that deal would be somewhat akin to the deal that Neville Chamberlain made with Adolf Hitler prior to WWII. Everyone knows of the parallels between Voldemort and Hitler.
Finally, if the Longbottoms made a deal with Voldemort to spare Neville in return for allowing Voldemort to cast a spell to remove the magic from him, perhaps they did their own spell first to hide a bit of Neville's magic from Voldemort. If Uncle Algie knew this, it might make sense of his rather extraordinary efforts to try to bring out some magical ability in Neville.
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Wendelin the Weird - Oct 16, 2003 10:55 pm (#133 of 383)
burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Hmm... Wait a tic. Voldemort's parents were a witch and a complete Muggle. Harrys parents were a wizard (we think anyway - no mention of the Potters being Muggles) and a witch from Muggle parentage. I think there is a bit of a differnce there after all.
In a sense, Harry is a pureblood born of two magical parents, whereas Riddle was born of a magical mum and a Muggle dad. (*snort* Magical Mum! I think Molly Weasley should write a book titled this! ha haa)
What about the Longbottoms? From what we know, they were both a great witch and wizard also, him being an auror and from a wizarding family (Im assuming his Gran that he lives with is his father's mum). So Harry and Neville are actually more alike than either of them and Tom Riddle...
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schoff - Oct 16, 2003 11:59 pm (#134 of 383)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Edited by Oct 17, 2003 12:10 am
I'm under the impression that in the WW (especially as far as the DE's are concerned), children who are born to any muggle or muggle-born have the same standing:
Two Muggle parents = Muggle-Born child ("mudblood")
One Muggle parent + One Muggle-Born parent = Half-Blood
One Muggle-born parent + One Pure-Blooded Parent = Half-Blood
Two Muggle-born parents = Half-Blood
Half-Blood + anyone = Half-Blood
Technically, this makes Harry and Voldemort Half-Bloods. Same was true in Nazi Germany. Didn't one have to go back 4 generations, and if any one ancestor was Jewish, then you were considered Jewish too, even if it wasn't your faith? I do remember that the qualifications for being consider a Jew in the Nazi regime would have listed Hitler as a Jew.
Neville is pure-blood. This is confirmed in CoS (ch11 US185). In that way, he is not Voldemort's equal. Harry is.
EDIT: Wendelin - Neville's dad (Frank Longbottom) is Gran's son. Confirmed in OoP (ch23 US514).
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Madame Librarian - Oct 17, 2003 5:13 am (#135 of 383)
schoff, thanks for the rundown there. It's confusing sometimes to keep straight as evidenced by the number of times in this very forum that we misstate someone's "classification" (eww, I don't even like saying it like that). Since it is awkward to handle, I'm wondering if it was purposely contrived by JKR to further the comparison to the Nazi Germany thing, and cleverly remind us of that awful era. Just a thought....
Ciao. Barb
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Mare - Oct 17, 2003 7:39 am (#136 of 383)
Hem hem
Before we restart this entire discussion again tatataaa:
Lilly P. "Harry Potter: Half-Blood or Pure-Blood?????" 10/20/02 10:24am
Jami JoAnne Russell "Muggle-born Wizards and Wizard-born Muggles..." 1/2/03 4:53pm
Read the threads, they are a fun discussion, but please don't discuss the topic here, unless directly related to the prophecy.
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Willow'sGran - Oct 17, 2003 7:50 pm (#137 of 383)
Pardon me, I'm brand new here. I've been scouring the prophecy forum, but I can't find any reference to one thing. What exactly is "the power the Dark Lord has not"?; the one Dumbledore says Harry has in such quantities? Any ideas? Also, if Dumbledore was revealing everything why didn't he tell Harry what it was?
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Susurro Notities - Oct 17, 2003 8:54 pm (#138 of 383)
Love, and all the powers associated with love: kindness, compassion, loyalty...? That is what I have thought was "the power the Dark Lord has not". I think Dumbledore suggests this. If I were a better Harry Potter scholar I could find the parts of the books that lead me to this conclusion. Unfortunately I am not the scholar others on this forum are.
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S.E. Jones - Oct 17, 2003 9:43 pm (#139 of 383)
Let it snow!
(OotP, ch36, pg816, US)
And I'll see Sirius again....
And as Harry's heart filled with emotion, the creature's coils loosened, the pain was gone....
(OotP, ch 37, pg843)
"I haven't any powers he hasn't got, I couldn't fight the way he did tonight, I cant possess people or -- or kill them --"
"There is a room in the Department of Mysteries," interupted Dumbledore, "that is kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is an once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you."
I think, more than anything else, the last part of that quote, "It was your heart that saved you," is what really points to it being love. There are also lines referring to Voldemort's hatred and underestimation of love throughout the entire series....
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zixyer - Oct 17, 2003 11:26 pm (#140 of 383)
Also, Harry's love for Sirius is what made him go to the Dept. of Mysteries.
So apparently Voldemort has no capacity for love. Imagine what life would be like without love. You might go so far as to call it even worse than death.
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Willow'sGran - Oct 18, 2003 6:33 am (#141 of 383)
I first thought it was love too. But you can't contain love in a room. That's the part that keeps me questioning.
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Susurro Notities - Oct 18, 2003 6:56 am (#142 of 383)
Death doesn't occur when one walks through an arch either. (unless it falls on you )In JKR's world some essence of love might very well be kept in a room.
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Wendelin the Weird - Oct 18, 2003 6:57 am (#143 of 383)
burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Well, there are such things as love potions in the HP universe, so perhaps its not a big container of love, but something that can produce it or send and receive it.. just a thought. Who would think that Death could be contained behind a door or a veil either...
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Willow'sGran - Oct 18, 2003 7:16 am (#144 of 383)
I don't mean to sound obsessive or anything but Love being the power that Harry has and Snake-eyes doesn't just doesn't work. Love is an emotion, it could be the fuel a power needs, but it is not a power in itself. A love potion can't create love, it can only make a person act as though they love. You can't study love, can't quantify it, and it is something that anyone can experience.
I never thought the archway was death. I thought it was a means of magical execution. Something like an electric chair, or a guillotine. I also thought of it as a doorway to death. I never thought of it as THE place where death is.
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Susurro Notities - Oct 18, 2003 7:49 am (#145 of 383)
Edited by Oct 18, 2003 7:50 am
This may be just a semantics discussion but I see love as power. Emotional power is difficult to measure but not impossible.
"You can't study love, can't quantify it, and it is something that anyone can experience."
Love has been studied since time began. Conclusions reached from the study of love are well known and widely accepted. For example children who grow up with love are overwhelmingly more productive, less conflicted, happier.... than children who do not experience much love.
Love is also measurable. The power of love for a friend is widely thought of as less than the extreme amount of love felt for one's child.
Yes anyone can love just as anyone can explode fireworks. Fireworks are still power as is love.
Just as automotive movement is the manifestation of the combined powers of fuel and engine, compassion, kindness, passion, bravery, thoughtfulness... are the manifestations of the power of love.
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Weeny Owl - Oct 18, 2003 8:11 am (#146 of 383)
Susurro - "compassion, kindness, passion, bravery, thoughtfulness... are the manifestations of the power of love."
That's a simply wonderful description, Susurro. I would also add that love has the power to heal.
As for love not being something that can be contained in a room, this is the Wizarding World, after all, so pretty much anything is possible.
When Dumbledore mentions that the force is more wonderful and more terrible than death, etc., I suppose it could depend on which definition of "terrible" JKR is using. She could mean it as "awesome" and not as a synonym for "horrible."
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Thom Matheson - Oct 18, 2003 8:18 am (#147 of 383)
Tell me that Fear, and Hate doesn't raise a physical response. People do strange things out of hate or fear or for that matter sorrow and depression. All evoke physical responses that can be trapped, bottled and stored.
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Susurro Notities - Oct 18, 2003 11:31 am (#148 of 383)
Exactly Tim. Fear and Hate are great examples of emotional power!
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Willow'sGran - Oct 18, 2003 12:57 pm (#149 of 383)
This is going to be a longish post. I've been giving some thought to the power Harry has that Snake-eyes doesn't and I've found references in both the books, and the paralell to WWII that Ms. Rowling uses to reach this decision.
I think the power is Truth. The first hints of this are scenes involving the Mirror of Erised. Harry saw wishes in the mirror. They were indeed things he would have liked to be true, but they weren't. Dumbledore made it a point to tell Harry not to look for the mirror again. He then hid the stone in the mirror. Much the same way Churchill hid the truth about the D-Day invasion in the lies planted on a dead man's body.
In the second book, Harry defeated the memory of Voldemort, with the truth that Voldemort had never become the "Greatest Wizard of all Time". Voldemort never had the courage to test Dumbledore.
In PoA, Harry triumphed over the dememtors, and Pettigrew by demanding the truth.
In GoF Harry survived by being true to himself. First, he made sure that everyone had an equal playing field when he told Cedric about the dragons. Secondly, he refused to leave anyone behind. Third he accepted the fact that Voldemort was stronger than he, but that he could still fight.
We all know about the Occlumency and Legilimency in OoP. I know there is some debate about the Occlumency and what it means. I think both definitions are true, it is the ability to close one's mind, it is also the ability to see through someone else's eyes.
I also think these things tie into the whole "his mother's eyes" thing.
Finally, the thing that is most convincing for me, was Dumbledore's statement about the fountain of magical brethren being a lie. If the Ministry kept a lie on display, then it makes sense that they would attempt to hide the truth.
Truth can be studied, it can be quantified, and it can be manipulated. Truth is not an emotion.
The difference is that while you can study the effects of love, you can declare an amount of love and you can maipulate a person through love, you can't change love itself. Love has no existence independent of conciousness. Neither does any other emotion. Truth does. If everyone on the planet believed that a stone was water; a stone would still be a stone.
This answer also fits well in another thread, like what the gleam in Dumbledore's eyes was about. He might very well have felt triumphant that by taking Harry's blood, Voldemort also removed some of his transferred powers from Harry. Harry's *true* powers, occlumency being one, could now blossom.
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S.E. Jones - Oct 18, 2003 1:32 pm (#150 of 383)
Let it snow!
Willow's Gran: Love is an emotion, it could be the fuel a power needs, but it is not a power in itself. A love potion can't create love, it can only make a person act as though they love. You can't study love, can't quantify it, and it is something that anyone can experience.
I think this fits most of the mysteries studied in the DoM. Death, time, thought, future (which was next to the room with the time turners)...throughout history, these things were considered great mysteries because they couldn't really be quantified and really studied. Psychologists study thought but, as I have found in my psychology class, that a lot is unknown about the human thought process and there are usually at least three different theories to explain everything. Dumbledore said that this "power" was the greatest of all the mysteries studied and I agree. There is no real reason, physiologically, for love. Yes there are certain stimuli that cause certain physiological responses, but there is nothing to show why we become emotionally attached to some things and not to others. Plus, there are several references to Voldemort being disgusted by love, him overlooking it... (OotP, ch37, pg836) "You would be protected by an ancient magic of which he knows, which he despises, and which he has always, therefore, underestimated --- to his cost. I am speaking, of course, of the fact that your mother died to save you. She gave you a lingering protection he never expected, a protection that flows in your veins to this day." (PS, ch17, US) "Your mother died to save you. If there is one thing Voldemort cannot understand, it is love. He didn't realize that love as powerful as your mother's for you leaves it's own mark. Not a scar, no visible sign...to have been loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some protection forever. It is in your very skin. Quirrell, full of hatred, greed, and ambition, sharing his soul with Voldemort, could not touch you for this reason. It was agony to touch a person marked by something so good." There are, of course, others....
As for truth being quantifiable, as someone who has taken many ethics classes, truth isn't as cut and dry as you might think....
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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The Prophecy (Post 151 to 200)
Elanor Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:47 am
Sly Girl - Oct 18, 2003 4:04 pm (#151 of 383)
Maybe it is neither truth nor love, but Harry's inherent goodness (for lack of a better word). Something that is infused with love and truth and the like, but also something that has a physical manifestation- as in the form of Harry's power (to vanquish Voldemort.)
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Hermionefan(#1) - Oct 18, 2003 2:15 pm (#152 of 383)
missing my picture!!!!! *cry cry cry*
Harry Potter Prophecy
When I was reading Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, I mean the part where it says S.P.T. to A.P.W.B.D. Dark Lord and (?) Harry Potter, I read it over and over trying to understand what the initials stood for, when I had a brain blast. I think it stands for Sibyll P. Trelawney to Albus Percival Wulfric Dumbledore. Has this information been posted anywhere? A lot of people could drive themselves mad over that.
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Emily - Oct 18, 2003 6:33 pm (#153 of 383)
Hermionefan, wonderful! I can't speak for anyone else, but I never figured it out. I just guessed that it was whoever labeled it to their superior's initials... shows what I know.
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Wendelin the Weird - Oct 19, 2003 9:17 am (#154 of 383)
burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Oh, I thought it was clear thats what it stood for. Sorry.. Guess Im a nerd like that, connecting the initials etc... hee hee... And I love DDs full name - I bet there is some crazy anagram in there like Tom Marvolo Riddle's
Oh, and sorry to dredge up a philosophical debate on "love" hee hee... I just imagine that if the Wizarding World has found a way to study death, time travel, and impulses of the human brain, it seems like it wouldnt be a stretch to think that love could easily be one of the "mysteries" being studied behind one of those doors. I think it was interesting the little debate the girls had over opening that door too.. is that a bit of foreshadowing that they could be a love interest for Harry?
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buckbeat - Oct 21, 2003 12:19 pm (#155 of 383)
I don´t know whether this has been brought up before (I did not find it anyway): When reading the "wand trait" I was reminded of the Priori incantatem effect, which means that LV and Harrys wands don´t work against each other. I find this interesting in relation to the prophecy because of two reasons: 1) it seems to contradict with the prophecy, which could be understood that only Harry and LV can kill each other. Yet they possess the only pair of wands we have heard of so far which isn´t really fit for fighting each other (of course they could use other methods, but they are wizards, I don´t hope they go fist fighting) So they are the only ones who can kill each other but they can´t. 2) the wands are another form of "equalness", which could be unrelated to some transferred powers during the AK spell, or to LV choosing Harry.
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Neville Longbottom - Oct 21, 2003 12:32 pm (#156 of 383)
Harry's and Voldemort's wands only don't work against each other, when they are shouting spells at the same time. Otherwise the spells work, it is seen for example when Voldemort uses several curses on Harry in the graveyard in GoF, or when Voldemort tries to kill him in the Ministry of Magic.
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Fawkesy Lady - Oct 21, 2003 1:08 pm (#157 of 383)
In post 119 Aragog Fan wrote..."For some reason, it tugs on my brain that Tom and LV are seperate. JKR has hinted it too much. And if so, what role will Tom play?"
I fell asleep reading this thread and when I woke up I read this line and thought the last line said, "And if so, what role will Harry play?" As in Tom took on the role of the "Dark Lord" and Harry will have to take on a role. And here in my half sleep stage thought of this...Dumbledore is a name and like the phoenix is "reborn" when the old Dumbledore is going to die a new one must take over...Harry's role. Dumbledore is the only person Voldy is afraid of.
I know this sounds crazy, but I just had to write it.
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Fawkesy Lady - Oct 21, 2003 1:24 pm (#158 of 383)
Also, I have a question that has been bugging me. If this is the wrong thread for it, please let me know where to post it. Lily sacrificed herself for Harry. As her blood runs through his veins he is protected. He lives with Petunia because she is also of Lily's blood. Now that Voldy took some of Harry's blood and now he can touch Harry and that is no longer an issue, how can he be safe at Petunia's if the blood protection is moot?
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schoff - Oct 21, 2003 1:27 pm (#159 of 383)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Fawkesy Lady: Maybe the Lily Potter dying for Harry thread is what you're looking for?
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Fawkesy Lady - Oct 23, 2003 6:48 am (#160 of 383)
Thanks schoff, I will copy it over to that thread.
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scully jones - Oct 25, 2003 7:53 pm (#161 of 383)
yeah right
I just think that the "power" was.. Good. The force of Good... as opposed to the force of Bad. Basically Good vs. Evil and all that jazz... Maybe she meant something else, but that's what it seemed like to me.
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zixyer - Oct 25, 2003 9:19 pm (#162 of 383)
Okay, but how can the force of good be described as "More terrible than death, human intelligence, and forces of nature?"
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S.E. Jones - Oct 26, 2003 9:00 pm (#163 of 383)
Let it snow!
I can so easily see Love as fitting that description. Love (via Lily's sacrifice for her child) caused Voldemort to exist in a state that was, most probably to him, worst than death. It can make people do things that go against their reason by making them run into burning buildings to save their loved ones, this also goes against our biological/natural instincts to preserve ourselves first. And, it can make someone attempt to "move mountains," as they say, for those they love. If you wanted to take a very romantic view of things, you could argue that the Trojan War was about love (for love of an ideal, Helen) and the Battle of Thermopylae (for love of country). Also think of the great things that have been accomplished for Love, the building of the Taj Mahal; also, Longshanks built several great cathedrals along his wife's funeral route across England to express his love of her.... Still I think the references I cited in my last few posts (#139 and 150) were the best indicators, at least to me, that the "power" is indeed Love....
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Michelle K. - Oct 26, 2003 11:01 pm (#164 of 383)
"I think of all the loopholes that people have dug out of the prophecy BarnMan's is most plausible. It also could mean that Harry might set into a motion a sequence of events that cause Voldemort's downfall."
I too believe this too, I think it comes down to Wormtail. Why you ask? I think that Voldemort will have Wormtail try to kill Harry, but remembering the friendship, trust and "love" of James and Lily he will let Harry go. Voldemort will then kill Peter and Harry watching this will battle Voldemort. Will he succeed? Who knows, maybe Neville will come in to play?
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Tomoé - Oct 28, 2003 9:01 pm (#165 of 383)
Back in business
I copy-paste my post from another thread :
""The One with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...
Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies....
and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...
and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...
The one with the power to vaquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."
Since I read that prophecy, I'd assumed that the first line was linked to the forth, that the dark lord must be the dead one to be vanquished, but what if Harry must be killed to vanquish the dark lord ? (Someone probably already said that on the prophecy thread, I'm sorry if it is)"
I began to read that thread and I read Sly Girl telling that Harry is "the person who Loves, and does not fear Death". The person who loves enough to save every ones by is own death. I hope I'd not spoiled myself the end of Harry Potter.
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Tomoé - Oct 28, 2003 11:32 pm (#166 of 383)
Back in business
I read all the posts and Okieangel have point that theory out in the post forty-some, but it was drown but other matters.
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Ovate - Oct 29, 2003 7:26 pm (#167 of 383)
It seems that most people posting to this thread believe that Voldemort marked his equal, but to be accurate the prophecy does not state that Voldemort actually marked his equal. It states that he "marked him as his equal". Now there are at least two ways in which this statement differs from the statement "he marked his equal". First, it allows for the possibility of error. That is he may have made an error, For instance, if I were asked on an astronomy exam to mark Mars, I might mark the fifth planet from the sun as Mars, but, of course, I would be wrong. Second, the mark may be an act of deception. If I were a pirate and had a treasure map, I may very well mark a location that didn't actually harbor any treasure with the proverbial X in order to fool prying eyes. I think it's interesting that JKR did not state that Voldemort "marked his equal" when she easily could have.
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S.E. Jones - Oct 30, 2003 8:28 am (#168 of 383)
Let it snow!
I have to disagree with you there Ovate. I think the fact that it says "marked him as his equal" leaves less room for error because it makes the choice his. His equal is the one he chooses it to be. If he had chosen Neville, a great many things might have been different, but instead he chose Harry.
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Ihavebothbuttocks - Oct 30, 2003 10:13 am (#169 of 383)
Which, once again, brings you back to the choices thing.
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Ovate - Oct 30, 2003 10:17 am (#170 of 383)
How do we know that Voldemort didn't approach Neville prior to Harry? And as I said choosing someone as your equal is not the same as choosing your equal. It's just not the same. When Michael Jordan was drafted by the Chicago Bulls, he was the third choice in the draft. Obviously, Portland when it chose Sam Bowie first they thought that Bowie was Jordan's equal at the very least. They did not choose his equal, but they did not. They did mark him as Jordan's equal. His better in fact, but they were mistaken. For whatever reason, Hitler chose "Non-Jewish" scientists as better than Jewish scientists. He makes a point of stating that Jewish science was inferior. If he had actually chosen the best German scientists he would have chosen many Jews, including Einstein (of course, they wouldn't have cooperated with him). The point is that choosing someone as your equal is definitely NOT the same (necessarily) as choosing your equal. Of this, I am certain.
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Ovate - Oct 30, 2003 10:35 am (#171 of 383)
Two other points: First, it would be completely superfluous of JKR to raise Neville as a possible answer to the Prophecy, if it were so obvious that Harry was the one. That's why there is a question mark next to Harry's name on the crystal ball. It remains uncertain, even with Harry's scar. Second, how do we know that Voldemort didn't attack Neville in some way. Why would the Death Eaters believe that the Longbottoms in particular would know what happened to Voldemort. Why would Voldemort be stupid enough to only attack one of his potential vanquishers. Clearly, he would not. He may have attacked Harry first, but there can be no doubt that he would have attacked Neville also even if he thought Harry was more likely to be his downfall. Why take chances? He wouldn't have. Either Neville would have been attacked after Harry or Neville was already attacked prior to the attack on Harry. Just because Dumbledore thinks that Harry's scar is the mark spoken of in the prophecy does not make it so. He has been far from infallible. He didn't recognize Crouch Jr. as a phony Moody, someone who he knew very well, for 9 months. Quite mind boggling really. Second, in the first book he was called away to London by a phony message at a time when even he acknowledges he should have stayed at Hogwarts. Third, he admits that he shouldn't have set up Occlumency lessons with Snape. Fourth, he has let his emotions get the best of him in his dealings with Harry. Mostly, it doesn't make sense to bring Neville into this if it weren't important. The prophecy doesn't say Voldemort marked his equal, it says that he marked someone "as" his equal. It is not the same thing.
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Ovate - Oct 30, 2003 10:41 am (#172 of 383)
Finally, Neville's name really is curious and JKR had to know this. Longbottom was the tobacco leaf that led to Pippin and Merry uncovering the conspiracy between the evil wizard Saruman and Sackville-Baggins of the Shire in LOTR and of course the only famous Neville that I can think of was Neville Chamberlain who cut an infamous deal with Adolf Hitler prior to WWII. Neville's name is unlikely to be a coincidence.
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Ovate - Oct 30, 2003 11:02 am (#173 of 383)
I also found it interesting that Neville, who had improved by leaps and bounds during the DA lessons, happened to break his nose during the battle in the Department of Mysteries. The fact that he couldn't cast a spell in that battle (except for the spell that resulted in one of the time-changing crystal balls falling on one of the Death Eaters heads) had to reinforce the view amongst the Death Eaters that Neville was no threat to Voldemort. After all, they would have to have been concerned if Neville had suddenly shown some magical prowess. They have no idea the Prophecy says anything at all about Voldemort marking someone as his equal.
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Susurro Notities - Oct 30, 2003 1:54 pm (#174 of 383)
"The prophecy doesn't say Voldemort marked his equal, it says that he marked someone "as" his equal. It is not the same thing." I agree with you Ovate but I am unsure of what that means for Neville. If Neville was marked as well then he too was marked "as" equal. It seems that we could view Harry and Neville as having inferior or superior powers in relation to Voldemort. "...but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not." So it seems that Voldemort may have marked Harry and possibly Neville as equal but he/they are in fact superior.
I am curious, Ovate, about your thoughts on the LOTR reference (have never read the books) and the Neville Chamberlain connection. Are you implying that Neville may collude with Voldemort?
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Ovate - Oct 30, 2003 7:04 pm (#175 of 383)
In each, instance a deal was cut. Now in the first instance the deal was with an evil wizard in return for his "political" support. Neville Chamberlain, who was a perfectly respectable person, cut a deal with Hitler that he believed would spare England from war with Germany. It was a bad deal, but I'm sure he believed it was in England's best interest and he certainly was not a Nazi sympathizer.
I've posted this once before, so I apologize for repeating myself.
What I think the name might suggest is a deal struck by the Longbottom's with Voldemort to spare their son. In some ways, this would mirror the deal struck by Chamberlain. The deal may have been that the Longbottom's would allow Voldemort to extinguish the magic in Neville without a fight being put up by the Longbottoms who after all were formidible wizards and members of the Order. I think that the mark Voldemort left on Neville was possibly two-fold. First, his spell damaged Neville's memory. Second, by sparing Neville, Voldemort demonstrated to his followers that he held Neville's life in higher regard than he did Harry's. That is he spared the pure-blood and apparently Voldemort's followers believe that Voldemort is a pure-blood also, a fantasy that Voldemort must have taken great care to perpetuate. In that sense, I think Voldemort may have marked Neville as his equal even though in reality he is not, o perpetuate that fantasy amongst his followers. Obviously, Voldemort for some reason missed a bit of magic in Neville. In Neville's case that would be the power that the Dark Lord "knew not". Part of a deal would have included the Longbottoms maintaining their silence. On the other hand, why would they advertise making such a deal if it happened?
I think that a reasonable case can be made that either Harry or Neville could be the one mentioned in the prophecy. Doesn't it strike anyone else as odd that the Death Eaters would seek out the Longbottoms in particular after Voldemort's fall?
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Maollelujah - Oct 30, 2003 7:52 pm (#176 of 383)
Doesn't it strike anyone else as odd that the Death Eaters would seek out the Longbottoms in particular after Voldemort's fall?
I doesn't really strike one as odd, when you think that they were looking for their leader and as Auror's the Longbottoms might have had some information.
I believe that Neville is pretty much not the person that Voldermort marked. Read what Lucius Malfoy says at the DOM...
1. "Dumbledore never told you the reason you bear that scar was hidden in the bowels of the Department of Mysteries?" Malfoy sneered...
2. "...the Dark Lord wondered why - you didn't come running when he showed you the place where it was hidden in your dreams..."
3. "And why did he want to steal a prophecy about me?"
"About both of you, Potter, about both of you, haven't you ever wondered why the Dark Lord tired to kill you as a baby?"
I think these pretty point out Voldermort's thinking about who is the person in the prophesy.
Point two shows that Voldermort discusses his actions among his followers.
Point One and Three reveals that Voldermort believes that Harry is the one in the prophesy.
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Ovate - Oct 30, 2003 8:00 pm (#177 of 383)
I do think that Voldemort believes the prophecy pertains to Harry, but he doesn't know the whole prophecy and as I stated I think he believes that he's removed any possible threat that Neville might pose, but Neville has power that he "knew not".
The Death Eaters and Voldemort just assume that Harry is the one because they think that Neville is neutralized and obviously Harry has been a pain in the neck for Voldemort.
Once again there is no reason on earth for an intelligent person such as Voldemort not to have sought to eliminate BOTH Neville and Harry. In fact, there is no reason for him not to do so now, unless he's absolutely certain that Neville poses no threat, which he can't be unless he thinks that he already eliminated Neville as a threat somehow. Why would he chance it? That would just be plain dumb.
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Ovate - Oct 30, 2003 8:05 pm (#178 of 383)
Of all the aurors in the wizarding world, the Death Eaters just happen to choose the parents of one of the children who met the criteria set out in the prophecy. That seems like an astounding coincidence to me.
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Tomoé - Oct 30, 2003 8:49 pm (#179 of 383)
Back in business
Octave said : "Once again there is no reason on earth for an intelligent person such as Voldemort not to have sought to eliminate BOTH Neville and Harry."
Maybe the Longbottom had a secret keeper as well, Voldy just reach Harry before he could put a hand on Neville. But I don't throw away the idea of Neville being the one, Jo is tricky, that may be true and that may not as well.
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Susurro Notities - Oct 30, 2003 9:40 pm (#180 of 383)
As I understand Neville's power that he "knew not" was that "Voldemort for some reason missed a bit of magic." Yet Harry too has power that he "knows not", the power of love given him by his mother. Harry or Neville, Neville or Harry. I believe that Neville's story is important and that Neville will be pivotal in the final two books but I am not sure that he is the one the prophecy refers to.
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Ovate - Oct 30, 2003 10:02 pm (#181 of 383)
Susurro, I totally agree with you. My personal opinion is that either one of them could still be the one that fulfills the prophecy and that it will come down to circumstances and/or choices. I believe that both will play an important role in the end.
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Denise P. - Oct 30, 2003 10:42 pm (#182 of 383)
Ravenclaw Pony
Since Dumbledore has stressed often enough the principal of choices, I think it really points to the fact that Harry will ultimately choose if he is the person in the prophesy or if it will be Neville. Does that make sense?
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Maollelujah - Oct 30, 2003 11:11 pm (#183 of 383)
I do think that Voldemort believes the prophecy pertains to Harry, but he doesn't know the whole prophecy and as I stated I think he believes that he's removed any possible threat that Neville might pose, but Neville has power that he "knew not".
The prophesy is not contingent on Voldermort knowing the entire thing. Even if he didn't know any of it, the moment he tried to kill Harry, he made his choice which boy was going to be the one.
Also the prophesy doesn't give the impression there are two boys who have been marked and have powers "he knows not", rather it says "The One", which means there is only one boy with the power to vanquish Voldermort.
Of course, in retrospect Voldermort made some tactical mistakes in attacking only Harry, but so has a lot of other leaders in history. I am sure Napoleon would have loved to had a chance to fight Waterloo all over.
As for the question mark, it is before his name, because they didn't know who there boy with powers "he knows not" is until Voldermort chose him. After Voldermort attack Harry, they wrote the name in, as Dumbledore said.
Maybe it is not a coincidence that the DEs chose the Longbottoms of all the Aurors. Maybe it was the Longbottoms that were in charge of the search for Voldermort.
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Ovate - Oct 30, 2003 11:19 pm (#184 of 383)
Maollelujah you mentioned that Lucious Malfoy mentioned the scar to Harry in your previous post, I'm just saying that Malfoy wouldn't recognize the true signifcance of the scar. He only knows that Harry has the scar because Voldemort attacked him and that Voldemort attacked him because he was one of two children who might fulfill the prophecy.
As for the prophecy mentioning only one rather than two that doesn't mean that the prophecy is predicting exactly who might vanquish the Dark Lord only that one of the two will be able to vanquish him.
Its just incredible to me that the Longbottoms would be the ones attacked immediately after Voldemort attempts to destroy the one who might vanquish him.
I'm still wondering why you think that Voldemort would choose not to eliminate both threats even if he thinks that Harry poses the greater threat. To ignore Neville without good cause would be beyond idiotic. The first time round he may well have attacked Harry first and been incapacitated, but now he could clearly choose to eliminate Neville, yet he ignores him. Plainly idiotic, especially since he doesn't know the complete prophecy, unless he is absolutely certain that Neville poses no danger to him whatsoever, which he can't know, of course, unless he's taken steps to ensure that Neville poses no danger.
I choose to believe that Voldemort is not stupid enough to ignore Neville, even if he thinks that Neville poses only a minimal threat.
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Maollelujah - Oct 31, 2003 12:33 am (#185 of 383)
I agree it would have been a lot smarter of Voldie to get rid of Neville too, but if the Bad guy never made mistakes the good guy would never win.
But now Voldermort firmly believes that Harry is the one that will cause his demise. The key is that Voldermort has to mark him as his equal, and he has done that, not only by the scar, but also in his attempts to kill Harry in book 4 and book 5. Also every time Harry foils Voldermort's plots, he is re 'marked' as Voldermort's equal.
NoVeil4Me: I agree Harry had a choice, but I think he has already made his choice the first time he foiled Voldermort's plan in SS. He didn't have to try to save the Sorceror's Stone. He could have just as easily decide to study for his potions exam, but didn't.
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Ovate - Oct 31, 2003 3:15 am (#186 of 383)
Maollelujah we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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!!!!!LauraAngel - Oct 31, 2003 8:16 am (#187 of 383)
"If you attempt to — er — 'bring me in' by force, I will have to hurt you." - Albus Dumbledore
From the first time I read the profecy I got the feeling that something was missing. Maybe that Dumbledore stopped it before Harry heard the ending? Just a thought...
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Tomoé - Oct 31, 2003 9:34 am (#188 of 383)
Back in business
Err ... do you assume that the Longbottoms, knowing that their son may have be the one, knowing that LV could be looking to murder him, have let him available for anyone to kill him ?
I suspect that Neville had been as well hide as Harry, LV find Harry first and that's why he didn't kill Neville. No deeper reason than that.
And, IMO, if LV removed Neville's magic (except for a tiny bit), that would have mark him as his inferior, as he wasn't worth to be killed by the Dark Lord.
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Ovate - Oct 31, 2003 9:50 am (#189 of 383)
Well Tomoe I don't agree that sparing Neville would have marked him as inferior. I think that sparing Neville would indicate that Voldemort and his followers place a premium on pureblood whereas they would have seen Harry as a worthless half-blood. And he wouldn't have intentionally left Neville with any magical powers. That bit would have been the power that he knew not. Perhaps the Longbottoms were powerful enough to cast a spell that hid a small bit of Neville's magic, just a kernal that might emerge under the right circumstances.
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Peregrine - Oct 31, 2003 10:12 am (#190 of 383)
Do you think in the next book Harry will sit down with Neville and tell him everything about the Prophecy? I have a feeling it will be the two of them together against Voldemort in the end. Like it was in the MOM, everyone else will fall behind somehow, leaving Neville and Harry to deal with Voldemort and only in the last seconds will be know who the chosen one really is. Just a guess.
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Ovate - Oct 31, 2003 10:21 am (#191 of 383)
II think you're probably right Peregrine. Neville and Harry may well face Voldemort together in the end.
I don't know whether Neville will be told about the Prophecy. Harry (and Dumbledore) might think that it would be a burden to Neville for him to know. Hard to say.
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Peregrine - Oct 31, 2003 10:51 am (#192 of 383)
Or, since Harry was kept in the dark for so long he may not want to treat Neville like that too (unless Dumbledore told him not to say anything).
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Fluxsnare7 - Oct 31, 2003 11:37 am (#193 of 383)
Student of Many Things
I don't think the prophecy is ambiguous or strangely worded at all. It clearly states that "either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives." Obviously that means that Harry will have to kill or be killed. It's very clear that that is exactly what's happening and has happened since Voldemort attacked Harry. Harry isn't living, in my interpretation, when he is forced to go and live with some of the cruelest people alive and always coming into contact with someone or thing that wants to kill him. That's not living. Further, Voldemort clearly can't live while Harry does because since his curse backfired on him, every time he tried to come back in books 1-3 he was defeated, at the end of book four he made his comeback but all his attempts to rule are thwarted by Harry or because of Harry. Also, I think Dumbledore was right on the money by saying that Voldemort marked Harry as his equal by coming after him, a half-blood like himself.
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Fluxsnare7 - Oct 31, 2003 11:40 am (#194 of 383)
Student of Many Things
Is it a coincidence that Neville is very talented in Herbology?
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Fluxsnare7 - Oct 31, 2003 11:45 am (#195 of 383)
Student of Many Things
Voldemort might place a premium on pure-bloods, but he hasn't hesitated to kill a pureblood who doesn't want to follow in his rule.
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Ovate - Oct 31, 2003 11:52 am (#196 of 383)
As I've said before Dumbledore is not infallible and there are many clues suggesting that there is more to Neville than meets the eye. I doubt that Neville would have been singled out as a possibility if there would be nothing more to it than that. I've laid out my reasons for believing that Neville could be the one over the course of a number of posts and don't want to repeat myself so I'll just say that I totally disagree with you Fluxsnare7, Neville could be the one.
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Emily - Oct 31, 2003 3:51 pm (#197 of 383)
I just have to say, Ovate, that I think it would be a bit to much of a twist on Rowling's part to write 6 books about Harry and then at the final battle just tell us'nope, sorry, it's Neville.'
Just me, but I think she only put it in for a bit of intrigue. I do have to say, however, that all your posts are apparently very thought out and an interesting read.
Thanks.
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Ovate - Oct 31, 2003 4:19 pm (#198 of 383)
Well as I've said before, it wasn't Frodo who took the ring into the fires of Mount Doom in LOTR, so such a twist is not unprecedented in fantasy literature.
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LaTricia J. - Oct 31, 2003 5:35 pm (#199 of 383)
Ovate, I like the way you think, it is so true about the twist in LOTR, I have been surprised by JK Rowling so many times, I won't put anything past her.
Will anything change now that the prophecy has been destroyed? Obviously the MoM kept them for a reason right? I know Dumbledore of course will always retain his memory of it...
Of course thinking about it again, many prophecies were lost that night, I wonder what that means to the people that the prophecies were about?
I loved reading about the prophecy for the first time, I felt like I knew something about Harry that no one else did. It just all clicked, I am sure it clicked for more people then just me too! No wonder everyone is so protective of Harry! It's great, it's just all so great!
Thats all I had to add! Happy Halloween everyone! LaTricia J.
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Wendelin the Weird - Nov 1, 2003 3:25 am (#200 of 383)
burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Well on the matter of Neville's name, JKR has made mention of the fact that Hitlers Germany is an influence. It would be interesting if Neville tried to make a deal with Voldemort to spare Harry, and Harry wound up allowing himself to be killed to save Neville from death. It would tie in a bit with them both being chosen but only one having the power to vanquish him. Interesting thoughts though. I surely think we will see something unexpected like is being discussed in here in the long run... I dont think she would reveal everything in Book 5 about who has the power, I think shes giving us clues. As she says "Dont believe everything a character says..." so I dont think we can trust DD 100% or any character for that matter. Im expecting the unexpected.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Maybe it is neither truth nor love, but Harry's inherent goodness (for lack of a better word). Something that is infused with love and truth and the like, but also something that has a physical manifestation- as in the form of Harry's power (to vanquish Voldemort.)
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Hermionefan(#1) - Oct 18, 2003 2:15 pm (#152 of 383)
missing my picture!!!!! *cry cry cry*
Harry Potter Prophecy
When I was reading Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, I mean the part where it says S.P.T. to A.P.W.B.D. Dark Lord and (?) Harry Potter, I read it over and over trying to understand what the initials stood for, when I had a brain blast. I think it stands for Sibyll P. Trelawney to Albus Percival Wulfric Dumbledore. Has this information been posted anywhere? A lot of people could drive themselves mad over that.
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Emily - Oct 18, 2003 6:33 pm (#153 of 383)
Hermionefan, wonderful! I can't speak for anyone else, but I never figured it out. I just guessed that it was whoever labeled it to their superior's initials... shows what I know.
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Wendelin the Weird - Oct 19, 2003 9:17 am (#154 of 383)
burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Oh, I thought it was clear thats what it stood for. Sorry.. Guess Im a nerd like that, connecting the initials etc... hee hee... And I love DDs full name - I bet there is some crazy anagram in there like Tom Marvolo Riddle's
Oh, and sorry to dredge up a philosophical debate on "love" hee hee... I just imagine that if the Wizarding World has found a way to study death, time travel, and impulses of the human brain, it seems like it wouldnt be a stretch to think that love could easily be one of the "mysteries" being studied behind one of those doors. I think it was interesting the little debate the girls had over opening that door too.. is that a bit of foreshadowing that they could be a love interest for Harry?
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buckbeat - Oct 21, 2003 12:19 pm (#155 of 383)
I don´t know whether this has been brought up before (I did not find it anyway): When reading the "wand trait" I was reminded of the Priori incantatem effect, which means that LV and Harrys wands don´t work against each other. I find this interesting in relation to the prophecy because of two reasons: 1) it seems to contradict with the prophecy, which could be understood that only Harry and LV can kill each other. Yet they possess the only pair of wands we have heard of so far which isn´t really fit for fighting each other (of course they could use other methods, but they are wizards, I don´t hope they go fist fighting) So they are the only ones who can kill each other but they can´t. 2) the wands are another form of "equalness", which could be unrelated to some transferred powers during the AK spell, or to LV choosing Harry.
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Neville Longbottom - Oct 21, 2003 12:32 pm (#156 of 383)
Harry's and Voldemort's wands only don't work against each other, when they are shouting spells at the same time. Otherwise the spells work, it is seen for example when Voldemort uses several curses on Harry in the graveyard in GoF, or when Voldemort tries to kill him in the Ministry of Magic.
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Fawkesy Lady - Oct 21, 2003 1:08 pm (#157 of 383)
In post 119 Aragog Fan wrote..."For some reason, it tugs on my brain that Tom and LV are seperate. JKR has hinted it too much. And if so, what role will Tom play?"
I fell asleep reading this thread and when I woke up I read this line and thought the last line said, "And if so, what role will Harry play?" As in Tom took on the role of the "Dark Lord" and Harry will have to take on a role. And here in my half sleep stage thought of this...Dumbledore is a name and like the phoenix is "reborn" when the old Dumbledore is going to die a new one must take over...Harry's role. Dumbledore is the only person Voldy is afraid of.
I know this sounds crazy, but I just had to write it.
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Fawkesy Lady - Oct 21, 2003 1:24 pm (#158 of 383)
Also, I have a question that has been bugging me. If this is the wrong thread for it, please let me know where to post it. Lily sacrificed herself for Harry. As her blood runs through his veins he is protected. He lives with Petunia because she is also of Lily's blood. Now that Voldy took some of Harry's blood and now he can touch Harry and that is no longer an issue, how can he be safe at Petunia's if the blood protection is moot?
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schoff - Oct 21, 2003 1:27 pm (#159 of 383)
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Fawkesy Lady: Maybe the Lily Potter dying for Harry thread is what you're looking for?
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Fawkesy Lady - Oct 23, 2003 6:48 am (#160 of 383)
Thanks schoff, I will copy it over to that thread.
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scully jones - Oct 25, 2003 7:53 pm (#161 of 383)
yeah right
I just think that the "power" was.. Good. The force of Good... as opposed to the force of Bad. Basically Good vs. Evil and all that jazz... Maybe she meant something else, but that's what it seemed like to me.
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zixyer - Oct 25, 2003 9:19 pm (#162 of 383)
Okay, but how can the force of good be described as "More terrible than death, human intelligence, and forces of nature?"
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S.E. Jones - Oct 26, 2003 9:00 pm (#163 of 383)
Let it snow!
I can so easily see Love as fitting that description. Love (via Lily's sacrifice for her child) caused Voldemort to exist in a state that was, most probably to him, worst than death. It can make people do things that go against their reason by making them run into burning buildings to save their loved ones, this also goes against our biological/natural instincts to preserve ourselves first. And, it can make someone attempt to "move mountains," as they say, for those they love. If you wanted to take a very romantic view of things, you could argue that the Trojan War was about love (for love of an ideal, Helen) and the Battle of Thermopylae (for love of country). Also think of the great things that have been accomplished for Love, the building of the Taj Mahal; also, Longshanks built several great cathedrals along his wife's funeral route across England to express his love of her.... Still I think the references I cited in my last few posts (#139 and 150) were the best indicators, at least to me, that the "power" is indeed Love....
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Michelle K. - Oct 26, 2003 11:01 pm (#164 of 383)
"I think of all the loopholes that people have dug out of the prophecy BarnMan's is most plausible. It also could mean that Harry might set into a motion a sequence of events that cause Voldemort's downfall."
I too believe this too, I think it comes down to Wormtail. Why you ask? I think that Voldemort will have Wormtail try to kill Harry, but remembering the friendship, trust and "love" of James and Lily he will let Harry go. Voldemort will then kill Peter and Harry watching this will battle Voldemort. Will he succeed? Who knows, maybe Neville will come in to play?
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Tomoé - Oct 28, 2003 9:01 pm (#165 of 383)
Back in business
I copy-paste my post from another thread :
""The One with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...
Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies....
and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...
and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...
The one with the power to vaquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."
Since I read that prophecy, I'd assumed that the first line was linked to the forth, that the dark lord must be the dead one to be vanquished, but what if Harry must be killed to vanquish the dark lord ? (Someone probably already said that on the prophecy thread, I'm sorry if it is)"
I began to read that thread and I read Sly Girl telling that Harry is "the person who Loves, and does not fear Death". The person who loves enough to save every ones by is own death. I hope I'd not spoiled myself the end of Harry Potter.
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Tomoé - Oct 28, 2003 11:32 pm (#166 of 383)
Back in business
I read all the posts and Okieangel have point that theory out in the post forty-some, but it was drown but other matters.
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Ovate - Oct 29, 2003 7:26 pm (#167 of 383)
It seems that most people posting to this thread believe that Voldemort marked his equal, but to be accurate the prophecy does not state that Voldemort actually marked his equal. It states that he "marked him as his equal". Now there are at least two ways in which this statement differs from the statement "he marked his equal". First, it allows for the possibility of error. That is he may have made an error, For instance, if I were asked on an astronomy exam to mark Mars, I might mark the fifth planet from the sun as Mars, but, of course, I would be wrong. Second, the mark may be an act of deception. If I were a pirate and had a treasure map, I may very well mark a location that didn't actually harbor any treasure with the proverbial X in order to fool prying eyes. I think it's interesting that JKR did not state that Voldemort "marked his equal" when she easily could have.
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S.E. Jones - Oct 30, 2003 8:28 am (#168 of 383)
Let it snow!
I have to disagree with you there Ovate. I think the fact that it says "marked him as his equal" leaves less room for error because it makes the choice his. His equal is the one he chooses it to be. If he had chosen Neville, a great many things might have been different, but instead he chose Harry.
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Ihavebothbuttocks - Oct 30, 2003 10:13 am (#169 of 383)
Which, once again, brings you back to the choices thing.
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Ovate - Oct 30, 2003 10:17 am (#170 of 383)
How do we know that Voldemort didn't approach Neville prior to Harry? And as I said choosing someone as your equal is not the same as choosing your equal. It's just not the same. When Michael Jordan was drafted by the Chicago Bulls, he was the third choice in the draft. Obviously, Portland when it chose Sam Bowie first they thought that Bowie was Jordan's equal at the very least. They did not choose his equal, but they did not. They did mark him as Jordan's equal. His better in fact, but they were mistaken. For whatever reason, Hitler chose "Non-Jewish" scientists as better than Jewish scientists. He makes a point of stating that Jewish science was inferior. If he had actually chosen the best German scientists he would have chosen many Jews, including Einstein (of course, they wouldn't have cooperated with him). The point is that choosing someone as your equal is definitely NOT the same (necessarily) as choosing your equal. Of this, I am certain.
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Ovate - Oct 30, 2003 10:35 am (#171 of 383)
Two other points: First, it would be completely superfluous of JKR to raise Neville as a possible answer to the Prophecy, if it were so obvious that Harry was the one. That's why there is a question mark next to Harry's name on the crystal ball. It remains uncertain, even with Harry's scar. Second, how do we know that Voldemort didn't attack Neville in some way. Why would the Death Eaters believe that the Longbottoms in particular would know what happened to Voldemort. Why would Voldemort be stupid enough to only attack one of his potential vanquishers. Clearly, he would not. He may have attacked Harry first, but there can be no doubt that he would have attacked Neville also even if he thought Harry was more likely to be his downfall. Why take chances? He wouldn't have. Either Neville would have been attacked after Harry or Neville was already attacked prior to the attack on Harry. Just because Dumbledore thinks that Harry's scar is the mark spoken of in the prophecy does not make it so. He has been far from infallible. He didn't recognize Crouch Jr. as a phony Moody, someone who he knew very well, for 9 months. Quite mind boggling really. Second, in the first book he was called away to London by a phony message at a time when even he acknowledges he should have stayed at Hogwarts. Third, he admits that he shouldn't have set up Occlumency lessons with Snape. Fourth, he has let his emotions get the best of him in his dealings with Harry. Mostly, it doesn't make sense to bring Neville into this if it weren't important. The prophecy doesn't say Voldemort marked his equal, it says that he marked someone "as" his equal. It is not the same thing.
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Ovate - Oct 30, 2003 10:41 am (#172 of 383)
Finally, Neville's name really is curious and JKR had to know this. Longbottom was the tobacco leaf that led to Pippin and Merry uncovering the conspiracy between the evil wizard Saruman and Sackville-Baggins of the Shire in LOTR and of course the only famous Neville that I can think of was Neville Chamberlain who cut an infamous deal with Adolf Hitler prior to WWII. Neville's name is unlikely to be a coincidence.
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Ovate - Oct 30, 2003 11:02 am (#173 of 383)
I also found it interesting that Neville, who had improved by leaps and bounds during the DA lessons, happened to break his nose during the battle in the Department of Mysteries. The fact that he couldn't cast a spell in that battle (except for the spell that resulted in one of the time-changing crystal balls falling on one of the Death Eaters heads) had to reinforce the view amongst the Death Eaters that Neville was no threat to Voldemort. After all, they would have to have been concerned if Neville had suddenly shown some magical prowess. They have no idea the Prophecy says anything at all about Voldemort marking someone as his equal.
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Susurro Notities - Oct 30, 2003 1:54 pm (#174 of 383)
"The prophecy doesn't say Voldemort marked his equal, it says that he marked someone "as" his equal. It is not the same thing." I agree with you Ovate but I am unsure of what that means for Neville. If Neville was marked as well then he too was marked "as" equal. It seems that we could view Harry and Neville as having inferior or superior powers in relation to Voldemort. "...but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not." So it seems that Voldemort may have marked Harry and possibly Neville as equal but he/they are in fact superior.
I am curious, Ovate, about your thoughts on the LOTR reference (have never read the books) and the Neville Chamberlain connection. Are you implying that Neville may collude with Voldemort?
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Ovate - Oct 30, 2003 7:04 pm (#175 of 383)
In each, instance a deal was cut. Now in the first instance the deal was with an evil wizard in return for his "political" support. Neville Chamberlain, who was a perfectly respectable person, cut a deal with Hitler that he believed would spare England from war with Germany. It was a bad deal, but I'm sure he believed it was in England's best interest and he certainly was not a Nazi sympathizer.
I've posted this once before, so I apologize for repeating myself.
What I think the name might suggest is a deal struck by the Longbottom's with Voldemort to spare their son. In some ways, this would mirror the deal struck by Chamberlain. The deal may have been that the Longbottom's would allow Voldemort to extinguish the magic in Neville without a fight being put up by the Longbottoms who after all were formidible wizards and members of the Order. I think that the mark Voldemort left on Neville was possibly two-fold. First, his spell damaged Neville's memory. Second, by sparing Neville, Voldemort demonstrated to his followers that he held Neville's life in higher regard than he did Harry's. That is he spared the pure-blood and apparently Voldemort's followers believe that Voldemort is a pure-blood also, a fantasy that Voldemort must have taken great care to perpetuate. In that sense, I think Voldemort may have marked Neville as his equal even though in reality he is not, o perpetuate that fantasy amongst his followers. Obviously, Voldemort for some reason missed a bit of magic in Neville. In Neville's case that would be the power that the Dark Lord "knew not". Part of a deal would have included the Longbottoms maintaining their silence. On the other hand, why would they advertise making such a deal if it happened?
I think that a reasonable case can be made that either Harry or Neville could be the one mentioned in the prophecy. Doesn't it strike anyone else as odd that the Death Eaters would seek out the Longbottoms in particular after Voldemort's fall?
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Maollelujah - Oct 30, 2003 7:52 pm (#176 of 383)
Doesn't it strike anyone else as odd that the Death Eaters would seek out the Longbottoms in particular after Voldemort's fall?
I doesn't really strike one as odd, when you think that they were looking for their leader and as Auror's the Longbottoms might have had some information.
I believe that Neville is pretty much not the person that Voldermort marked. Read what Lucius Malfoy says at the DOM...
1. "Dumbledore never told you the reason you bear that scar was hidden in the bowels of the Department of Mysteries?" Malfoy sneered...
2. "...the Dark Lord wondered why - you didn't come running when he showed you the place where it was hidden in your dreams..."
3. "And why did he want to steal a prophecy about me?"
"About both of you, Potter, about both of you, haven't you ever wondered why the Dark Lord tired to kill you as a baby?"
I think these pretty point out Voldermort's thinking about who is the person in the prophesy.
Point two shows that Voldermort discusses his actions among his followers.
Point One and Three reveals that Voldermort believes that Harry is the one in the prophesy.
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Ovate - Oct 30, 2003 8:00 pm (#177 of 383)
I do think that Voldemort believes the prophecy pertains to Harry, but he doesn't know the whole prophecy and as I stated I think he believes that he's removed any possible threat that Neville might pose, but Neville has power that he "knew not".
The Death Eaters and Voldemort just assume that Harry is the one because they think that Neville is neutralized and obviously Harry has been a pain in the neck for Voldemort.
Once again there is no reason on earth for an intelligent person such as Voldemort not to have sought to eliminate BOTH Neville and Harry. In fact, there is no reason for him not to do so now, unless he's absolutely certain that Neville poses no threat, which he can't be unless he thinks that he already eliminated Neville as a threat somehow. Why would he chance it? That would just be plain dumb.
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Ovate - Oct 30, 2003 8:05 pm (#178 of 383)
Of all the aurors in the wizarding world, the Death Eaters just happen to choose the parents of one of the children who met the criteria set out in the prophecy. That seems like an astounding coincidence to me.
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Tomoé - Oct 30, 2003 8:49 pm (#179 of 383)
Back in business
Octave said : "Once again there is no reason on earth for an intelligent person such as Voldemort not to have sought to eliminate BOTH Neville and Harry."
Maybe the Longbottom had a secret keeper as well, Voldy just reach Harry before he could put a hand on Neville. But I don't throw away the idea of Neville being the one, Jo is tricky, that may be true and that may not as well.
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Susurro Notities - Oct 30, 2003 9:40 pm (#180 of 383)
As I understand Neville's power that he "knew not" was that "Voldemort for some reason missed a bit of magic." Yet Harry too has power that he "knows not", the power of love given him by his mother. Harry or Neville, Neville or Harry. I believe that Neville's story is important and that Neville will be pivotal in the final two books but I am not sure that he is the one the prophecy refers to.
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Ovate - Oct 30, 2003 10:02 pm (#181 of 383)
Susurro, I totally agree with you. My personal opinion is that either one of them could still be the one that fulfills the prophecy and that it will come down to circumstances and/or choices. I believe that both will play an important role in the end.
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Denise P. - Oct 30, 2003 10:42 pm (#182 of 383)
Ravenclaw Pony
Since Dumbledore has stressed often enough the principal of choices, I think it really points to the fact that Harry will ultimately choose if he is the person in the prophesy or if it will be Neville. Does that make sense?
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Maollelujah - Oct 30, 2003 11:11 pm (#183 of 383)
I do think that Voldemort believes the prophecy pertains to Harry, but he doesn't know the whole prophecy and as I stated I think he believes that he's removed any possible threat that Neville might pose, but Neville has power that he "knew not".
The prophesy is not contingent on Voldermort knowing the entire thing. Even if he didn't know any of it, the moment he tried to kill Harry, he made his choice which boy was going to be the one.
Also the prophesy doesn't give the impression there are two boys who have been marked and have powers "he knows not", rather it says "The One", which means there is only one boy with the power to vanquish Voldermort.
Of course, in retrospect Voldermort made some tactical mistakes in attacking only Harry, but so has a lot of other leaders in history. I am sure Napoleon would have loved to had a chance to fight Waterloo all over.
As for the question mark, it is before his name, because they didn't know who there boy with powers "he knows not" is until Voldermort chose him. After Voldermort attack Harry, they wrote the name in, as Dumbledore said.
Maybe it is not a coincidence that the DEs chose the Longbottoms of all the Aurors. Maybe it was the Longbottoms that were in charge of the search for Voldermort.
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Ovate - Oct 30, 2003 11:19 pm (#184 of 383)
Maollelujah you mentioned that Lucious Malfoy mentioned the scar to Harry in your previous post, I'm just saying that Malfoy wouldn't recognize the true signifcance of the scar. He only knows that Harry has the scar because Voldemort attacked him and that Voldemort attacked him because he was one of two children who might fulfill the prophecy.
As for the prophecy mentioning only one rather than two that doesn't mean that the prophecy is predicting exactly who might vanquish the Dark Lord only that one of the two will be able to vanquish him.
Its just incredible to me that the Longbottoms would be the ones attacked immediately after Voldemort attempts to destroy the one who might vanquish him.
I'm still wondering why you think that Voldemort would choose not to eliminate both threats even if he thinks that Harry poses the greater threat. To ignore Neville without good cause would be beyond idiotic. The first time round he may well have attacked Harry first and been incapacitated, but now he could clearly choose to eliminate Neville, yet he ignores him. Plainly idiotic, especially since he doesn't know the complete prophecy, unless he is absolutely certain that Neville poses no danger to him whatsoever, which he can't know, of course, unless he's taken steps to ensure that Neville poses no danger.
I choose to believe that Voldemort is not stupid enough to ignore Neville, even if he thinks that Neville poses only a minimal threat.
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Maollelujah - Oct 31, 2003 12:33 am (#185 of 383)
I agree it would have been a lot smarter of Voldie to get rid of Neville too, but if the Bad guy never made mistakes the good guy would never win.
But now Voldermort firmly believes that Harry is the one that will cause his demise. The key is that Voldermort has to mark him as his equal, and he has done that, not only by the scar, but also in his attempts to kill Harry in book 4 and book 5. Also every time Harry foils Voldermort's plots, he is re 'marked' as Voldermort's equal.
NoVeil4Me: I agree Harry had a choice, but I think he has already made his choice the first time he foiled Voldermort's plan in SS. He didn't have to try to save the Sorceror's Stone. He could have just as easily decide to study for his potions exam, but didn't.
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Ovate - Oct 31, 2003 3:15 am (#186 of 383)
Maollelujah we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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!!!!!LauraAngel - Oct 31, 2003 8:16 am (#187 of 383)
"If you attempt to — er — 'bring me in' by force, I will have to hurt you." - Albus Dumbledore
From the first time I read the profecy I got the feeling that something was missing. Maybe that Dumbledore stopped it before Harry heard the ending? Just a thought...
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Tomoé - Oct 31, 2003 9:34 am (#188 of 383)
Back in business
Err ... do you assume that the Longbottoms, knowing that their son may have be the one, knowing that LV could be looking to murder him, have let him available for anyone to kill him ?
I suspect that Neville had been as well hide as Harry, LV find Harry first and that's why he didn't kill Neville. No deeper reason than that.
And, IMO, if LV removed Neville's magic (except for a tiny bit), that would have mark him as his inferior, as he wasn't worth to be killed by the Dark Lord.
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Ovate - Oct 31, 2003 9:50 am (#189 of 383)
Well Tomoe I don't agree that sparing Neville would have marked him as inferior. I think that sparing Neville would indicate that Voldemort and his followers place a premium on pureblood whereas they would have seen Harry as a worthless half-blood. And he wouldn't have intentionally left Neville with any magical powers. That bit would have been the power that he knew not. Perhaps the Longbottoms were powerful enough to cast a spell that hid a small bit of Neville's magic, just a kernal that might emerge under the right circumstances.
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Peregrine - Oct 31, 2003 10:12 am (#190 of 383)
Do you think in the next book Harry will sit down with Neville and tell him everything about the Prophecy? I have a feeling it will be the two of them together against Voldemort in the end. Like it was in the MOM, everyone else will fall behind somehow, leaving Neville and Harry to deal with Voldemort and only in the last seconds will be know who the chosen one really is. Just a guess.
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Ovate - Oct 31, 2003 10:21 am (#191 of 383)
II think you're probably right Peregrine. Neville and Harry may well face Voldemort together in the end.
I don't know whether Neville will be told about the Prophecy. Harry (and Dumbledore) might think that it would be a burden to Neville for him to know. Hard to say.
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Peregrine - Oct 31, 2003 10:51 am (#192 of 383)
Or, since Harry was kept in the dark for so long he may not want to treat Neville like that too (unless Dumbledore told him not to say anything).
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Fluxsnare7 - Oct 31, 2003 11:37 am (#193 of 383)
Student of Many Things
I don't think the prophecy is ambiguous or strangely worded at all. It clearly states that "either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives." Obviously that means that Harry will have to kill or be killed. It's very clear that that is exactly what's happening and has happened since Voldemort attacked Harry. Harry isn't living, in my interpretation, when he is forced to go and live with some of the cruelest people alive and always coming into contact with someone or thing that wants to kill him. That's not living. Further, Voldemort clearly can't live while Harry does because since his curse backfired on him, every time he tried to come back in books 1-3 he was defeated, at the end of book four he made his comeback but all his attempts to rule are thwarted by Harry or because of Harry. Also, I think Dumbledore was right on the money by saying that Voldemort marked Harry as his equal by coming after him, a half-blood like himself.
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Fluxsnare7 - Oct 31, 2003 11:40 am (#194 of 383)
Student of Many Things
Is it a coincidence that Neville is very talented in Herbology?
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Fluxsnare7 - Oct 31, 2003 11:45 am (#195 of 383)
Student of Many Things
Voldemort might place a premium on pure-bloods, but he hasn't hesitated to kill a pureblood who doesn't want to follow in his rule.
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Ovate - Oct 31, 2003 11:52 am (#196 of 383)
As I've said before Dumbledore is not infallible and there are many clues suggesting that there is more to Neville than meets the eye. I doubt that Neville would have been singled out as a possibility if there would be nothing more to it than that. I've laid out my reasons for believing that Neville could be the one over the course of a number of posts and don't want to repeat myself so I'll just say that I totally disagree with you Fluxsnare7, Neville could be the one.
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Emily - Oct 31, 2003 3:51 pm (#197 of 383)
I just have to say, Ovate, that I think it would be a bit to much of a twist on Rowling's part to write 6 books about Harry and then at the final battle just tell us'nope, sorry, it's Neville.'
Just me, but I think she only put it in for a bit of intrigue. I do have to say, however, that all your posts are apparently very thought out and an interesting read.
Thanks.
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Ovate - Oct 31, 2003 4:19 pm (#198 of 383)
Well as I've said before, it wasn't Frodo who took the ring into the fires of Mount Doom in LOTR, so such a twist is not unprecedented in fantasy literature.
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LaTricia J. - Oct 31, 2003 5:35 pm (#199 of 383)
Ovate, I like the way you think, it is so true about the twist in LOTR, I have been surprised by JK Rowling so many times, I won't put anything past her.
Will anything change now that the prophecy has been destroyed? Obviously the MoM kept them for a reason right? I know Dumbledore of course will always retain his memory of it...
Of course thinking about it again, many prophecies were lost that night, I wonder what that means to the people that the prophecies were about?
I loved reading about the prophecy for the first time, I felt like I knew something about Harry that no one else did. It just all clicked, I am sure it clicked for more people then just me too! No wonder everyone is so protective of Harry! It's great, it's just all so great!
Thats all I had to add! Happy Halloween everyone! LaTricia J.
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Wendelin the Weird - Nov 1, 2003 3:25 am (#200 of 383)
burned at the stake 47 times and counting...
Well on the matter of Neville's name, JKR has made mention of the fact that Hitlers Germany is an influence. It would be interesting if Neville tried to make a deal with Voldemort to spare Harry, and Harry wound up allowing himself to be killed to save Neville from death. It would tie in a bit with them both being chosen but only one having the power to vanquish him. Interesting thoughts though. I surely think we will see something unexpected like is being discussed in here in the long run... I dont think she would reveal everything in Book 5 about who has the power, I think shes giving us clues. As she says "Dont believe everything a character says..." so I dont think we can trust DD 100% or any character for that matter. Im expecting the unexpected.
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The Prophecy (Post 201 to 250)
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Sally Silly - Nov 1, 2003 7:51 am (#201 of 383)
I don't know if Harry can kill Voldemort.True,we might find out in the 5th,6th,or 7th books.I have only read the first 3.I am reading the 4th right now....I mean not now,But i am working on reading it.I do not know whyHerminone went to the Yule Ball with Krum.Do you?
~Missv~
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Denise P. - Nov 1, 2003 7:55 am (#202 of 383)
Ravenclaw Pony
Hi Missv! Welcome to the Forum.
Since you have not read all of the books, you are going to come across a lot of comments, information and speculation that will not make sense until you do read them.
Rather than ask about them, make a note in a notebook and as you read the books, I bet the majority will be answered for you If we answer each and every question that can be answered by reading the books, this Forum would be even larger than it already is! Yikes!
If you have not done so yet, mosey over and introduce yourself on the Welcome thread so we know a bit about you.
There are a lot of discussions you can participate in but keep in mind that many will contain information and spoilers about things you have not yet read.
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I Am Used Vlad - Nov 1, 2003 9:46 pm (#203 of 383)
I Am Almighty!
There is another possible interpretation to "for neither can live while the other survives."
Up to this point, everyone has assumed that this can't be literally true, since both Harry and Voldemort are alive at the same time. Some have speculated that neither can be considered to be living, since their conflict has kept Harry from having much of a life and Voldemort from realizing his goals. Other posts have brought up that Voldemort hasn't really been alive in a true sense for most of Harry's life. But Voldemort got his body back at the end of GoF, so both have been "truly" alive for a year at the end book 5, so the prophecy would still be literally false.
However, "for neither can live while the other survives" could still be literally true if it is not describing their existence before one of them dies at the other's hand, but after. It could mean that both Harry and Voldemort will die in a final confrontation, but one will survive in some way.
If this is true, Voldemort, who thinks that there is nothing worse than death, could "survive" by becoming a ghost. Harry would go on to the world of the dead. Voldemort would find out that there is something worse than death(being powerless), and Harry would be reunited with his family(his hearts deepest desire.)
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Weeny Owl - Nov 1, 2003 9:46 pm (#204 of 383)
Who exactly knows about the Prophecy?
We know Harry does now since Dumbledore told him.
We know that some of the Death Eaters do because of what happened in the Department of Mysteries. We know Voldie knows about it. Not the entire thing, but that there is a Prophecy. We know that someone else heard part of it and told Voldie, but...
... did Wormtail, Lupin, and Sirius know? They knew there was a reason that a Secret-Keeper was necessary, but did they know exactly why Voldie was after the Potters? Did the Potters themselves know?
We know Sirius switched with Wormtail hoping that he'd draw Voldie away from the Potters. He knew Voldie was after them, but did he know why?
Would Dumbledore have told the Order? All of them or part of them? Assuming Snape wasn't the one who heard part of the Prophecy and told Voldie, would Dumbledore tell Snape? Especially considering the need for Harry's Occlumency lessons, how much would Dumbledore confide in Snape?
It just seems as if knowing what has motivated some of the characters might explain their actions or at least part of their actions.
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Ovate - Nov 2, 2003 6:38 am (#205 of 383)
"for neither can live while the other survives"
There is a way that this could be literally true. If either Voldemort or the One mentioned in the prophecy is sent back into the far past by the other. then while that person is living in the present, he would also have died in the past. In the first edition of COS, JKR made what appeared to be a mistake when she calls Voldemort Slytherin's last living ancestor. Of course, JKR has called this a "deliberate" error and the text has been changed to read "last living descendent", but why would she call the error deliberate unless perhaps Voldemort is both Slytherin's descendent and his ancestor. If Voldemort is "vanquised" by sending him far into the past, he would also presumably die at some point in the past. So Voldemort, at present, would literally be both dead and living. Its clear that time-travel is possible in the wizarding world, but that it also can have serious consequences. If Voldemort is indeed both Slytherin's ancestor and his descendent, the conundrum would be that if Voldemort weren't sent into the past, then he would have never been born in the first place.
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Ovate - Nov 2, 2003 12:07 pm (#206 of 383)
Previously, I've suggested that the Longbottoms may have cut a deal with Voldemort to spare Neville's life. But perhaps it wasn't Neville's parents who cut a deal with Voldemort, perhaps it was his Gran. In the Longbottoms thread, I've posted my reasons for believing his Gran was a Slytherin and possibly a Death Eater. In brief, she always wears a fox (cunning) fur hat with a vulture (death eater) perched on it, she usually wears green (long green dress and gloves) and she has clawlike (grasping, ambitious) hands. Neville is also apparently deathly afraid of her. Gran is probably about Voldemort's age, perhaps they went to school together, perhaps they became friends when both were members of Slytherin house. Maybe it was this friendship that allowed Gran to cut a deal with Voldemort to spare Neville's life. If Voldemort attempted to remove the magic from Neville in lieu of killing him as part of this deal, maybe it wasn't tears of joy that Gran shed when Neville displayed some magical nature by bouncing when Great Uncle Algie accidently(?) dropped him.
Just a thought.
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Warty Harris - Nov 2, 2003 1:58 pm (#207 of 383)
Maybe Voldemort chose Harry because he was already planning to kill James Potter. When he heard the prophecy he thought that Harry would do him in as revenge for killing his father. So he thought that he would kill Harry and avoid the prophecy....of course not hearing the rest of the prophecy he didn't know what would happen. He may have wanted to spare Lily's life because someone else, like a death eater was in love with her, or that she was his great grand-duaghter or something like that. An argument could be made for Neville as well, but I think there is another reason why Voldemort chose Harry other than him just being a half-blood.
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A-is-for-Amy - Nov 2, 2003 3:09 pm (#208 of 383)
Mom of 2 boys
I think that Voldemort planned on killing both Harry AND Neville, but went to Harry's house first and met his downfall there. I mean, Voldemort isn't stupid, and he would have known (whether he heard the whole prophecy or not) that by killing Harry, Neville would become the one the prophecy was referring to by default. He would need to eliminate BOTH kids to be totally safe.
That being said, Dumbledore told Harry that Voldemort chose the child he felt would grow up to be the biggest threat to him. That makes me wonder what the Potters did that was more threatening than being Aurors as the Longbottoms were. I would assume that the child with the most threatening parents would have a good chance of being a more formidable adult themselves.
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Maollelujah - Nov 2, 2003 5:38 pm (#209 of 383)
. I mean, Voldemort isn't stupid, and he would have known (whether he heard the whole prophecy or not) that by killing Harry, Neville would become the one the prophecy was referring to by default. He would need to eliminate BOTH kids to be totally safe.
I think you are wrong. Voldermort is stupid. He has had many chances to kill Harry, but hasn't. I mean he could have killed Harry very easily when Harry was tied up in GoF, but had some complicated stupid plan instead. Tom Riddle probably could have killed Harry in CoS, but instead gave him a long talk and tried to let the big Snake do his bidding. He could have been there with his DE in the OotP and killed Harry with a quick killing curse, but didn't. At least once or twice Lucius could have killed Harry in OotP, but acting on Voldermort's orders didn't.
Face it Voldermort is pretty stupid. I really don't think he even has the slightest interest in Neville.
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Ovate - Nov 2, 2003 5:40 pm (#210 of 383)
How could Voldemort become the 2nd most powerful wizard in the world if he were stupid? Dumbledore said that Tom Riddle was a brilliant student.
"Tom's last year at Hogwarts was 1944-45. He was Prefect, Head boy and received a Medal for Magical Merit, Albus Dumbledore later said of him, “Brilliant. Of course, he was probably the most brilliant student Hogwarts has ever seen”." from the Voldemort page of the Lexicon.
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Maollelujah - Nov 2, 2003 6:10 pm (#211 of 383)
He was a brilliant student, but put that doesn't mean he is tactically smart, or does the right thing at the right time.
And If he was so brilliant/too smart why hasn't he killed Harry when he had the chance?
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Ovate - Nov 2, 2003 6:22 pm (#212 of 383)
In the first book Lily's love, with an assist from Dumbledore, saved Harry. In the second year, Harry was up against the memory of Tom Riddle as a 5th year student and Fawlkes saved Harry's Life. No confrontation in the third book. In the 4th book, Priori Incantatum saved Harry with an assist from echoes of Harry's parents, Cedric, Bertha Jorkins and the muggle Voldemort had killed. In the 5th book, Dumbledore saved Harry's life. Harry is a great wizard, but he's definitely been very lucky (and chosen his friends well too). Voldemort made it to the Sorceror's Stone in the first book, a difficult task indeed for him especially given that he didn't even have his own body. In the second book, we find out that Tom Riddle discovered the Chamber of Secrets, which even Dumbledore couldn't uncover and was smart enough to create that memory of himself in the diary. In the fourth book, he laid out a rather ingenious plan to capture Harry far from Hogwarts and away from Dumbledore's protection. He's not stupid, lot's of brilliant people fail for a variety of reasons, skillful enemise, overconfidence, and bad luck just to name three.
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Susurro Notities - Nov 2, 2003 6:24 pm (#213 of 383)
Is it possible that Voldemort feels he needs to kill Harry in battle? To prove his power?
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timrew - Nov 2, 2003 6:35 pm (#214 of 383)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Let's face it. Voldemort is getting to be a laughing-stock among the DEs because of the number of times he has been bested by Harry Potter.
I should imagine that he wants to kill Harry in the most spectacular way possible, to show that he is the 'main man', and 'el numero uno magico honcho'.
Look out for fireworks (and not Doc Filibuster's), in book 6.
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Maollelujah - Nov 2, 2003 6:36 pm (#215 of 383)
All that is nice. But it doesn't change the fact that when Voldermort has had an easy chance to kill Harry with a simple killing curse, he has bungled it stupidly. (And he has had several chances.)
I believe that however smart or brilliant he is, his arrogance makes him rather stupid, almost ineptly stupid. None of his failures have come down to anything more than his own bumbling mishandling of the situation.
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Susurro Notities - Nov 2, 2003 6:47 pm (#216 of 383)
Edited by Nov 2, 2003 5:49 pm
Maybe Voldemort will give up on a spectacular defeat of Harry since he has failed so often. If he does things will get more dangerous for Harry - the quick kill will come with much less notice.
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timrew - Nov 2, 2003 6:50 pm (#217 of 383)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
That's true, Maollelujah. I think Voldemort is up there with the greatest of the Bond villians.
That is....if you're going to kill someone, then do it after explaining to them why they have to die; tell them all of your plans; boast how easy it's going to be to all of your followers - and then choose the most complicated, lengthy and unnecessary way in which you're going to kill them.
In other words, give them every chance to escape to fight another day.
Voldemort is ego on legs. Harry should have no trouble whatsoever finishing him off!
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Ovate - Nov 2, 2003 7:30 pm (#218 of 383)
Voldemort certainly has a large ego no doubt, but I count 4 times (if I include Tom Riddle's memory) where Voldemort had a chance to kill Harryand each time he was defeated something outside his control. 1) Harry as a baby? Stupidity? No it was Lily's love or some other strange unknown force in Harry, 2) Harry as a first year? Stupidity? No, it was because Fawlkes who prevents Harry's certain death. 3) Harry in his fourth year? Stupidity? No, Voldemort's wand didn't work against Harry's otherwise Harry is dead. 4) Fifth year? Stupidity? No, it was Harry who was stupid in the fifth book and he would have died if not for Dumbledore.
In addition, Harry is completely protected at the Dursley's and, for the most part, at Hogwart's. Voldemort has lured Harry into traps 3 times. Each time Harry was lucky to escape.
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A-is-for-Amy - Nov 2, 2003 8:35 pm (#219 of 383)
Mom of 2 boys
What I am saying, is I don't think that Voldemort knows that Neville was another possiblity for the prophecy (for whatever reason). Otherwise, he should have killed him off by now, just to be on the safe side. Why risk having Harry be killed and Neville somehow marked in the future to bring the prophecy to fruition?
I agree that Voldemort's ego is largely to blame for the GoF debacle, to untie Harry and give him a wand so that he could prove he was better.... that was just not prudent. Other than that, he has been pretty smart.
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Maollelujah - Nov 2, 2003 9:08 pm (#220 of 383)
1) Harry as a baby? Stupidity? No it was Lily's love or some other strange unknown force in Harry,
He wasn't smart enough to figure out if he killed her, Harry would have some extra protection. His own stupidity caused him be foiled. How simple would it have been to stun the Mom, kill the son.
2) Harry as a first year? Stupidity? No, it was because Fawlkes who prevents Harry's certain death.
It wasn't Fawlkes. He should have told Quirrell to 'kill the boy', instead of telling him to 'seize the boy'. It would have been easier to get the stone from a dead boy than a struggling live one. His brilliance once again wasted.
3) Second Year.
Instead of calling the stupid Basilisk, Riddle only had to cast the killing curse to do away with him, right at the beginning. Instead he waited for Harry to kill the stupid snake, then gave him a little lecture, then finally tried to kill him. Sound like a smart plan to you?
Just think there might have been two Voldermort's if he did.
3) Harry in his fourth year? Stupidity? No, Voldemort's wand didn't work against Harry's otherwise Harry is dead.
He had Harry tied up, without a wand, absolutely helpless. Some brilliant evil wizard Voldermort was, all he had to do was cast the spell get it over with, but rather he decided to let Harry go, give him a wand and a chance. Rather stupid.
4) Fifth year? Stupidity?
How many times could have one of his death eaters just killed him, instead of talking about the prophecy. One DE kills him, another one says 'accio prophecy' it is over. Or even Voldermort shows up with his Death Eaters and kills him. Does it go down like this? No rather, Voldermort sends in his DEs, they lose, because of his orders, then like the idiot he is, he shows up to late to kill Harry.
Brilliant Evil Overlord or Bumbling Dark Lord? You be the judge.
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Weeny Owl - Nov 2, 2003 9:24 pm (#221 of 383)
I don't think he's bumbling, and brilliance doesn't always work out in the real world. He certainly didn't think through the possible ramifications of the Prophecy, or at least the part he heard.
I see him more as intellectually gifted, and while he has a brilliant mind, he doesn't see that his plans have flaws.
He is incredibly arrogant, and that manifests itself in many ways. In GoF, for instance, he didn't see that Harry had a way out at all. Harry was surrounded by a group of Death Eaters and he was injured... how could one person escape all of that? Granted, it would be logical and practical just to kill him, but Voldie had to show his Death Eaters that he was still, according to his conceit and arrogance, the most powerful wizard ever, and that he had lost none of his power while being gone thirteen years.
He is too consumed with himself and his vision of what he is. He just cannot fathom that anyone would dare defy him and win. He must make people bow to him and his wishes. He must make people fear him.
Since he's so arrogant, he would probably overlook someone like Neville. After all, he's probably heard from Lucius (through Draco) that Neville isn't always the best wizard around. Even with what the Prophecy says, Voldie would most likely feel that a child, and one who doesn't seem to be gifted with magic, would hardly be a threat.
Voldie's arrogance about the Prophecy, about Harry, and possibly about quite a few other things may be his downfall.
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Maollelujah - Nov 2, 2003 9:45 pm (#222 of 383)
I agree Voldermort is a brilliant student of magic, and brilliant user of magic. I also agree that he is an arrogant Evil Wizard, and it is my simple opinion that his brilliance will always be snuffed out by his arrogance. I mean you have to agree Voldermort's performance has been rather sub-standard so far: one foolish mistake after another.
So on Pinky's request let me tie this in with the prophecy...
With all his infinite brilliance Voldermort knows that he couldn't have been wrong in choosing Harry. He probably has never even given Neville a moments notice, because the minute he heard of the prophecy, he arrogantly knew it was the Potter kid.
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Pinky - Nov 2, 2003 9:49 pm (#223 of 383)
La la narf!
Just a quick reminder: while this is fascinating stuff that you are discussing, it is straying a bit from directly talking about the prophecy. Maybe this could be discussed more in depth in the Voldemort thread?
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I Am Used Vlad - Nov 2, 2003 10:13 pm (#224 of 383)
I Am Almighty!
Has anyone considered that Voldemort could have been defied by people who were not members of the Order. Dumbledore says that the prophecy "could have applied to two wizard boys, both born at the end of July that year, both of whom had parents in the Order of the Phoenix, both sets of parents having narrowly escaped Voldemort three times." This means that among children of members of the Order, the prophecy could only refer to Harry or Neville.
But Dumbledore would not have knowledge of the actions of all parents of wizards born at the time of the prophecy. Voldemort could have been defied three times by one of his Death Eaters, and Dumbledore would not have known.
It is possible that "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" is neither Harry nor Neville.
It's probably not Hermione, unless Voldemort had some bad dental work done(just joking), but any child of Death Eaters in Harry's year could be the One.
What is Draco's birthday, anyway?
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Ovate - Nov 3, 2003 8:13 am (#225 of 383)
I think that we all can agree that Voldemort is often blinded by arrogance. In my opinion, the books show that heart will trump cunning in the end. I still believe that Neville is a possible answer to the prophecy. If he put a spell on Neville to remove his magical potential, it may well have been arrogance that blinded him to the possibility that some kernal of magic in Neville could have been hidden from him. Perhaps we're just using the word stupidity differently.
(Sorry, I meant Dumbledore not Fawlkes in Harry's first year. I think that Voldemort told Quirrell to seize Harry rather than kill him because he wanted Harry to tell him where the stone was hidden first.)
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Sly Girl - Nov 3, 2003 11:12 am (#226 of 383)
I think the key to the whole bit between Dumbledore and Harry about the Prophecy again relates to CHOICE. Dumbledore makes a point of pointing it out to Harry- Voldemort CHOSE Harry. He chose the half-blood, the one like himself. This, more than anything, points to Voldemort's thoughts on the matter. It doesn't matter if he knows about Neville or not- he wanted the Potter child to be it.
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Ovate - Nov 3, 2003 12:04 pm (#227 of 383)
Really, I don't want to argue, but there is no way that we can know that Voldemort didn't secretly do something to Neville before he attacked Harry. We just don't know. I think that Dumbledore was talking about Moral choices and its true the stories are also about that.
I know I'm repeating myself, but the Prophecy DOES NOT say that Voldemort "marked his equal". It says that he "marked him as his equal" and those just are not equivalent statements. I have an exam question that asks me to mark Mars, I mistakenly mark the fifth planet Venus, but I marked it "as Mars". I fill out a form that asks me to mark my income. My income is say 12,000 galleons, but I want to impress someone, so I mark 50,000 galleons, its not really my income, but I marked it "as my income".
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!!!!!LauraAngel - Nov 3, 2003 1:02 pm (#228 of 383)
"If you attempt to — er — 'bring me in' by force, I will have to hurt you." - Albus Dumbledore
Good point, but what does it lead to? That Harry isn't equal to Voldemort? Or that Harry is worth more that Voldemort?...
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A-is-for-Amy - Nov 3, 2003 2:55 pm (#229 of 383)
Mom of 2 boys
Maybe Harry can obtain the Hand of Glory (I believe JKR said that Draco now owns it?), then use it to kill Voldemort per the prophecy! Either must die at the Hand of the other?
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Ovate - Nov 3, 2003 2:56 pm (#230 of 383)
It suggests that it doesn't matter that Harry and LV are both half-bloods. LV could have marked Neville "as his equal" even though Neville is a pureblood. Neville could be marked in two ways. First, his abysmal memory could have been caused by a spell cast by LV. The spell had left its mark. Second, casting a spell on Neville rather than trying to kill him, as he did Harry, (falsely) marks Neville "as his (social) equal". The purebloods are under the false impression that LV is also a pureblood and LV wants to maintain that deception. So instead of marking Harry, his true equal, he falsely marks Neville, indicating to his Death Eaters the high value he places on pureblood. No doubt he left a mark on Harry, even though he didn't intend to. But it might be that he marked both of them, one who is his equal (Harry) and one "as his equal" because he wants people to think Neville is his equal.
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Maollelujah - Nov 3, 2003 3:28 pm (#231 of 383)
Ovate: The only problem with your idea of Voldermort attacking Neville and marking him as the one in the prophecy with some spell is that there is nothing in the books that back it up. Your only evidence is "we don't know that it didn't happen" and wishful thinking. With those two key points we could make anyone the the boy in the prophecy.
Ron? We've never seen his birth certificate, so maybe his real birthday is in July, but his parents secretly have been telling him it is in March. And once a year on his real birthday, Voldie sends him birthday card saying "I am marking you as my equal." None of it is based on the books, but we don't know it didn't happen...
I really think it is about choice, like Sly Girl says. Voldermort had a choice and he made it.
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Susurro Notities - Nov 3, 2003 5:37 pm (#232 of 383)
"The purebloods are under the false impression that LV is also a pureblood and LV wants to maintain that deception."
The purebloods may have thought Voldemort was a pureblood but after the graveyard scene in GoF they now know he is a halfblood."
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Ovate - Nov 3, 2003 6:50 pm (#233 of 383)
Susurro, I think that only Peter was there when Voldemort mentioned his muggle father to Harry and I'm not sure that Peter even heard him. Bellatrix in OotP goes a little crazy when Harry calls Voldemort a half-blood.
I agree that there is no obvious evidence for Neville, I wouldn't expect anything obvious right now otherwise it would spoil the surprise at the end (if there is a surprise), but there are clues, which I've discussed extensively before. Neville's name is suspcious. His name connects him symbolically with two famous deals made by decent people with evil personages, one cut with Hitler by NEVILLE Chamberlain and in LOTR another deal is cut by some hobbits with the evil Wizard Saruman that is eventually revealed by a stash of LONGBOTTOM tobacco leaf that was found at his residence. I don't think his name is just a coincidence. And Neville's poor memory does mark him (I know that we don't have a clue why his memory is so bad, but at least he does have something that might be considered a mark).
The way Gran dresses is suspicious: she always wears a fox fur hat. Foxes symbolizes cunning, a Slytherin trait. The hat has a vulture perched on it. Vultures are literally "death eaters". Gran wears a long green dress and long green gloves. Green is a Slytherin color. Gran has clawlike hands. Claws are grasping. Grasping people are typically ambitious, a Slytherin trait. Gran may be about Voldemort's age. I think she was probably a Slytherin at Hogwarts (based on the way she dresses). She would have known Tom Riddle very well if this is the case. Perhaps they even had a friendship of sorts. (We don't know Gran's name. Might it be Olive?)
The fact that the Death Eaters tortured the Longbottoms and apparently no one else immediately after Voldemort's fall is suspicious. Why would think that the Longbottoms would have any information about Voldemort's whereabouts?
JKR has major twists at the end of each of her first four books. Snape appears to be trying to kill Harry at a Quidditch match, but it turned out he was really trying to rescue him. Initially, Tom Riddle appears to have saved Hogwarts from the monster from the Chamber of Secrets, but we all know how that turned out. Sirius appears to be a terrible criminal, but actually he was falsely accused and he risked everything to track down the real criminal. At first, Moody appears to be a really cool DADA teacher, but as Dean Thomas said he turned out to be a maniac. Oddly, no major twist occured in the fifth book. I expect that the ending of the final book will have a doozy of a twist.
Right now there seems to be a lot of evidence that Harry is the One, but it would have to appear that way at this point for any twist to work at the end of book 7.
Harry also just doesn't have a killer instinct. Harry wouldn't kill Sirius when he thought that he was responsible for his parents death. The same for Peter. And he didn't even have it in him to generate a proper Cruciatus (sp) curse on Bellatrix after she killed Sirius. I think that Harry might corner LV in the end, but just like Dumbledore, I don't think that he will want to kill him.
Finally, if Neville is not to play a role in the ending, then even mentioning him at all in the chapter about the Prophecy was a waste of ink.
Just my opinion.
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Maollelujah - Nov 3, 2003 7:59 pm (#234 of 383)
I guess this just proves that all Harry Potter fans are either a Luna Lovegood or a Hermione Granger when it comes theories.
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Ovate - Nov 3, 2003 8:50 pm (#235 of 383)
hmmm...
Funny guy. I hate to do this, but I don't enjoy being insulted just because we have differing opinions.
Ph.D in molecular biology at UCLA.
Post-doctoral fellowship at MIT.
Try to refrain from personal attacks. Its not nice. (I do kind of like Luna though and she is in Ravenclaw.)
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Susurro Notities - Nov 3, 2003 9:40 pm (#236 of 383)
Edited by Nov 3, 2003 8:43 pm
"I think that only Peter was there when Voldemort mentioned his muggle father to Harry and I'm not sure that Peter even heard him."
Ovate,
Prior to the arrival of the DEs Voldemort made his speech to Harry about his Muggle father. While he made this speech he is described as pacing "...up and down before Harry and Wormtail..." (p.646 GoF, US) It would seem he would have to project his voice so that Harry could hear him as he paced. Wormtail although occupied with pain is likely to have heard and taken in his master's halfblood history.
Note also that on p. 647 it GoF says the DEs formed "...a silent circle that enclosed Tom Riddle's grave, Harry, Voldemort, and the sobbing and twitching heap that was Wormtail." and on p.656 GoF(US)Voldemort is explaining his return he says "My father's bone, naturally, meant we would have to come here where he is buried." If the DEs did not already know Voldemort was originally Tom Riddle Jr. they would now know. They would also know that Riddle is not a pureblood name. I might also guess that the cemetery they are in would not be a typical burial place for wizards. Although we have not been told of the disposition of any wizard bodies my bet would be that they are not buried in Muggle cemeteries.
Additionally at Hogwarts everyone seems to know who is pureblood and who is not. Someone among the DEs must know of Voldemort's Hogwart days.
Ok this is a bit of overkill but I think at least some of the DEs know Voldemort is not a pureblood.
Now as to the Luna/Hermione issue. Gee Ovate I have been a Hermione for much of my life too - I think I might like being a Luna, smart but relaxed!
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Ovate - Nov 3, 2003 10:07 pm (#237 of 383)
Oh I have nothing against Luna. She's one of my favorite characters. After all, she can see the Thestrals and hear the voices behind the veil. I'm not saying I'm right, but I don't see anything illogical about what I've written. I admit that the evidence for Harry is strong, and for Neville speculation, based on numerous clues from which inferences can be drawn, is required, but I think it would be quite boring if there is not a major surprise at the end of book 7. JKR has said that she is very fond of major twists at the end of novels, especially those that people can't see coming.
You make a strong case for, at least, some Death Eater's knowing that Voldemort is a half-blood at this point, but Bellatrix obviously believes that he is a pureblood and the suggestion that he is not drives her crazy. Of course, she has been in Azkhaban for quite awhile. What kind of impact do you think that knowing Voldemort is not pureblood would have on the Death Eaters? Perhaps they overlook this fault in LV because he is Slytherin's heir.
I should point out that I'm also a rather poor skier. ;-)
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Maollelujah - Nov 3, 2003 10:17 pm (#238 of 383)
Sorry if you found it offensive, it wasn't meant that way. I wasn't trying to call you crazy, nor saying that I am right and you are wrong. I was only trying to make a clever Potteresque play on our clashing viewpoints by using Hermione and Luna and apparently failed.
I think Hermione, like me, would have hard time believing that your theory about Neville and some other theories floating around on the board, because they aren't based only on facts that can be gleaned from the books. On the other hand Luna wouldn't have as much problem understaning them, because her worldy view doesn't seem to be based on only the raw facts.
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Ovate - Nov 3, 2003 10:19 pm (#239 of 383)
Maollelujah, I'm sorry for misinterpreting you. Besides I do like Luna.
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!!!!!LauraAngel - Nov 4, 2003 9:35 am (#240 of 383)
"If you attempt to — er — 'bring me in' by force, I will have to hurt you." - Albus Dumbledore
"JKR has major twists at the end of each of her first four books. Snape appears to be trying to kill Harry at a Quidditch match, but it turned out he was really trying to rescue him. Initially, Tom Riddle appears to have saved Hogwarts from the monster from the Chamber of Secrets, but we all know how that turned out. Sirius appears to be a terrible criminal, but actually he was falsely accused and he risked everything to track down the real criminal. At first, Moody appears to be a really cool DADA teacher, but as Dean Thomas said he turned out to be a maniac. Oddly, no major twist occurred in the fifth book. I expect that the ending of the final book will have a doozy of a twist.
Right now there seems to be a lot of evidence that Harry is the One, but it would have to appear that way at this point for any twist to work at the end of book 7."
It was always people around Harry who were twisted, never Harry himself. I know that JKR broke a pattern by not making a twist in OP but I still think it's unlikely that Harry will turn out to stand by and watch in the end (or play a smaller part than we expect)
"Harry also just doesn't have a killer instinct. Harry wouldn't kill Sirius when he thought that he was responsible for his parents death. The same for Peter. And he didn't even have it in him to generate a proper Cruciatus (sp) curse on Bellatrix after she killed Sirius. I think that Harry might corner LV in the end, but just like Dumbledore, I don't think that he will want to kill him."
Harry might have backed out,but in PA when he first made a corporeal Patronus, he explains to Hermione that he knew he could do it, because he had already done it. I think that might be a lead: Maybe Harry sees it as if he has to do it; like he has half-way already done it because it has been predicted. Like it’s something he will do no matter what (well,other wise he dies), and he will be able to because of this. Maybe Harry won’t even have to kill LV. Maybe they battle at the MoM and LV goes through the veil?
I just had to comment your post...
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Fawkesy Lady - Nov 4, 2003 9:51 am (#241 of 383)
We are all guessing whether or not Neville will be involved with regards to getting Voldy and the prophecy. JKR wrote Neville into the story and connected him with the prophecy just to give us something to mull over and argue about. I mean she didn't have to have his birthday during the seventh month or his parents evade the Dark Lord three times. So perhaps that Neville is a red herring for us to butt heads over and keep us away from what she is really cooking up.
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!!!!!LauraAngel - Nov 4, 2003 10:01 am (#242 of 383)
"If you attempt to — er — 'bring me in' by force, I will have to hurt you." - Albus Dumbledore
Then she would have been fooling us all along! So many brain cells wasted... But wouldn't it be hard to explain later why she mentioned Neville then? I mean, the book would have been long even without that part...
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Emily - Nov 4, 2003 4:21 pm (#243 of 383)
Post 233: Oddly, no major twist occured at the end of the fifth book.
I disagree. I definitely consider Sirius' death a twist. At least, I don't know many people, on this forum or off, who before or during the fifth book could have pointed him out and said, 'he's going'. And what about the prophecy? We didn't know half of it before then. The prophecy's existance in itself was a twist.
Second. About Voldemort being 'stupid'. I disagree with this, too. First, as others have pointed out, is choice. Next, you have something that even Dumbledore recognizes. This is that Voldemort always underestimates his enemies, to his own cost.
1. Harry as a baby. Voldemort admits to his Death Eaters in the graveyard in GoF that he did not see Lily's defence coming. He underestimated her.
2. Harry's first year - Quirrel/Sorcerer's(Philosepher's) stone. Voldemort believes that he can convince Harry to join him. He underestimates Harry.
3.Harry's second year - the basilisk/Tom Riddle. Tom wants to gloat over Harry how he's going to kill him. He says he's going to teach Harry a lesson with the basilisk. He thinks that Harry will be killed by it. When Harry kills it, instead, he claims that he prefers it this way. He had
4. Harry's fourth year - the graveyard. This example ties arrogance in with underestimation. He tries to prove 'once and for all' that he is beyond all doubt better that Harry. He would have been better off killing Harry while he was tied up. He was too arrogant. He then underestimated Harry by allowing him to fight. He thought that Harry, alone, injured, and surrounded by Death eaters, not to mention facing the most feared wizard of the age, and the second most powerful wizard, could not possibly stand a chance. Wrong again.
5. Harry's fifth year - the DoM. Voldemort underestimates Harry by sending Death Eaters to kill him and retrieve the Prophecy instead of doing it himself. He truly thought that a dozen or so of his Death Eaters could easily overtake Harry Potter and a few fourth and fifth year students; even when he had never done it himself. This, again, was arrogant of him, because he believed that he and his followers were more powerful than their opponents.
Dumbledore said that Voldemort was a brilliant student and a very powerful wizard; but it just doesn't matter when you've got the sort of character flaws that he has. If he had done the practical thing, and he did have several chances, he'd be well on his way to world domination. Because of, or more precisely, according to, the Prophecy, none but Harry can defeat him. His choices have shaped the story and the fate of the Wizarding World.
I'm truly sorry about the term paper, but I feel that this topic deserves thorough exploration.
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A-is-for-Amy - Nov 4, 2003 4:35 pm (#244 of 383)
Mom of 2 boys
I thought having Umbridge be the one who sent the dementors was a nice twist, as well.
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Tomoé - Nov 4, 2003 8:59 pm (#245 of 383)
Back in business
IMO, the major twist in OoP is Harry messing everything up.
In the four first books, Harry always came to save the year. He save the stone in his first year (even if DD could have handle this himself), he killed the basilisk in his second year, he found Sirius, the truth about his parents murder and saved two inocents from death in his third year, he escaped from a duel with Voldemort and survive to tell the tale in his fourth year.
In his fifth year, Harry took a lot of unnecessary risk, not listening to anyone and ended up with Sirius dead and his 5 DA members injured.
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Ovate - Nov 5, 2003 12:14 am (#246 of 383)
I suppose I wasn't clear. I meant a specific kind of twist i.e someone appears to be good (or bad) turns out to be otherwise in the end.
book 1: Snape appears to be trying to kill Harry, but actually was really trying to save him. Quirrell seems to be resisting Snape's attempts to get the Stone, but is really trying to procure it for LV.
book 2: Tom Riddle who at first appears to be a model student who saved Hogwarts (50 years ago) from the CoS monster, turns out to be Slytherin's heir.
book 3: Sirius is introduced as a traitor and a murderer, but it turns out to be good.
book 4: Mad-Eye Moody, appears to be a cool DADA teacher, but is actually evil Barty Crouch Jr.
I didn't mean to imply that there weren't other kinds of twists, just not twists where someone who is not what he appears to be (in the sense of which side they are actually on).
In CoS, chapter 1, page 8, LV is desribed as "still terrifying, still CUNNING, still determined."
As far as I know, someone who is cunning is ingenious and clever, not stupid. I'm not saying that he hasn't made mistakes, but then again so has Dumbledore (leaving for London when he should have stayed at Hogwarts while the Stone was there; allowing Snape to teach Harry occlumency; not telling Harry about the prophecy sooner.)
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Fawkesy Lady - Nov 5, 2003 10:25 am (#247 of 383)
I have often heard that very brilliant people may not be so brilliant when it comes to common sense. I think that is what Ovate is trying to illustrate about Voldy underestimating Harry. Even though he is smart and powerful, he doesn't do what most people would consider the obvious or most common thing.
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!!!!!LauraAngel - Nov 5, 2003 12:34 pm (#248 of 383)
"If you attempt to — er — 'bring me in' by force, I will have to hurt you." - Albus Dumbledore
Ovate, I think they were correcting me. I just followed up on what you'd already said and didn't explain myself properly.
[...]he doesn't do what most people would consider the obvious or most common thing.
No, I think that is very clear... If most people walked around and killed whoever disagreed with them...
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scully jones - Nov 23, 2003 11:59 pm (#249 of 383)
yeah right
People keep pointing out that Tom Riddle was "stupid" or otherwise for sicking the basilisk on Harry instead of just killing him outright. Tom could hold a wand just fine, but as a memory-not-quite-finished-becoming-real, could he have actually used it? I don't think so. Did he use any spells other than speaking parseltongue? He sicked the basilisk on Harry because that was his only weapon.
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A-is-for-Amy - Nov 24, 2003 10:29 am (#250 of 383)
Mom of 2 boys
He did use the wand to write his name in the air and then demonstrate how the rearrangement of letters spelled out "I am Lord Voldmeort."
I think you are right, though. I'm not convinced that he would have been able to do such a powerful spell until Ginny was actually dead.
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I don't know if Harry can kill Voldemort.True,we might find out in the 5th,6th,or 7th books.I have only read the first 3.I am reading the 4th right now....I mean not now,But i am working on reading it.I do not know whyHerminone went to the Yule Ball with Krum.Do you?
~Missv~
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Denise P. - Nov 1, 2003 7:55 am (#202 of 383)
Ravenclaw Pony
Hi Missv! Welcome to the Forum.
Since you have not read all of the books, you are going to come across a lot of comments, information and speculation that will not make sense until you do read them.
Rather than ask about them, make a note in a notebook and as you read the books, I bet the majority will be answered for you If we answer each and every question that can be answered by reading the books, this Forum would be even larger than it already is! Yikes!
If you have not done so yet, mosey over and introduce yourself on the Welcome thread so we know a bit about you.
There are a lot of discussions you can participate in but keep in mind that many will contain information and spoilers about things you have not yet read.
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I Am Used Vlad - Nov 1, 2003 9:46 pm (#203 of 383)
I Am Almighty!
There is another possible interpretation to "for neither can live while the other survives."
Up to this point, everyone has assumed that this can't be literally true, since both Harry and Voldemort are alive at the same time. Some have speculated that neither can be considered to be living, since their conflict has kept Harry from having much of a life and Voldemort from realizing his goals. Other posts have brought up that Voldemort hasn't really been alive in a true sense for most of Harry's life. But Voldemort got his body back at the end of GoF, so both have been "truly" alive for a year at the end book 5, so the prophecy would still be literally false.
However, "for neither can live while the other survives" could still be literally true if it is not describing their existence before one of them dies at the other's hand, but after. It could mean that both Harry and Voldemort will die in a final confrontation, but one will survive in some way.
If this is true, Voldemort, who thinks that there is nothing worse than death, could "survive" by becoming a ghost. Harry would go on to the world of the dead. Voldemort would find out that there is something worse than death(being powerless), and Harry would be reunited with his family(his hearts deepest desire.)
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Weeny Owl - Nov 1, 2003 9:46 pm (#204 of 383)
Who exactly knows about the Prophecy?
We know Harry does now since Dumbledore told him.
We know that some of the Death Eaters do because of what happened in the Department of Mysteries. We know Voldie knows about it. Not the entire thing, but that there is a Prophecy. We know that someone else heard part of it and told Voldie, but...
... did Wormtail, Lupin, and Sirius know? They knew there was a reason that a Secret-Keeper was necessary, but did they know exactly why Voldie was after the Potters? Did the Potters themselves know?
We know Sirius switched with Wormtail hoping that he'd draw Voldie away from the Potters. He knew Voldie was after them, but did he know why?
Would Dumbledore have told the Order? All of them or part of them? Assuming Snape wasn't the one who heard part of the Prophecy and told Voldie, would Dumbledore tell Snape? Especially considering the need for Harry's Occlumency lessons, how much would Dumbledore confide in Snape?
It just seems as if knowing what has motivated some of the characters might explain their actions or at least part of their actions.
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Ovate - Nov 2, 2003 6:38 am (#205 of 383)
"for neither can live while the other survives"
There is a way that this could be literally true. If either Voldemort or the One mentioned in the prophecy is sent back into the far past by the other. then while that person is living in the present, he would also have died in the past. In the first edition of COS, JKR made what appeared to be a mistake when she calls Voldemort Slytherin's last living ancestor. Of course, JKR has called this a "deliberate" error and the text has been changed to read "last living descendent", but why would she call the error deliberate unless perhaps Voldemort is both Slytherin's descendent and his ancestor. If Voldemort is "vanquised" by sending him far into the past, he would also presumably die at some point in the past. So Voldemort, at present, would literally be both dead and living. Its clear that time-travel is possible in the wizarding world, but that it also can have serious consequences. If Voldemort is indeed both Slytherin's ancestor and his descendent, the conundrum would be that if Voldemort weren't sent into the past, then he would have never been born in the first place.
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Ovate - Nov 2, 2003 12:07 pm (#206 of 383)
Previously, I've suggested that the Longbottoms may have cut a deal with Voldemort to spare Neville's life. But perhaps it wasn't Neville's parents who cut a deal with Voldemort, perhaps it was his Gran. In the Longbottoms thread, I've posted my reasons for believing his Gran was a Slytherin and possibly a Death Eater. In brief, she always wears a fox (cunning) fur hat with a vulture (death eater) perched on it, she usually wears green (long green dress and gloves) and she has clawlike (grasping, ambitious) hands. Neville is also apparently deathly afraid of her. Gran is probably about Voldemort's age, perhaps they went to school together, perhaps they became friends when both were members of Slytherin house. Maybe it was this friendship that allowed Gran to cut a deal with Voldemort to spare Neville's life. If Voldemort attempted to remove the magic from Neville in lieu of killing him as part of this deal, maybe it wasn't tears of joy that Gran shed when Neville displayed some magical nature by bouncing when Great Uncle Algie accidently(?) dropped him.
Just a thought.
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Warty Harris - Nov 2, 2003 1:58 pm (#207 of 383)
Maybe Voldemort chose Harry because he was already planning to kill James Potter. When he heard the prophecy he thought that Harry would do him in as revenge for killing his father. So he thought that he would kill Harry and avoid the prophecy....of course not hearing the rest of the prophecy he didn't know what would happen. He may have wanted to spare Lily's life because someone else, like a death eater was in love with her, or that she was his great grand-duaghter or something like that. An argument could be made for Neville as well, but I think there is another reason why Voldemort chose Harry other than him just being a half-blood.
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A-is-for-Amy - Nov 2, 2003 3:09 pm (#208 of 383)
Mom of 2 boys
I think that Voldemort planned on killing both Harry AND Neville, but went to Harry's house first and met his downfall there. I mean, Voldemort isn't stupid, and he would have known (whether he heard the whole prophecy or not) that by killing Harry, Neville would become the one the prophecy was referring to by default. He would need to eliminate BOTH kids to be totally safe.
That being said, Dumbledore told Harry that Voldemort chose the child he felt would grow up to be the biggest threat to him. That makes me wonder what the Potters did that was more threatening than being Aurors as the Longbottoms were. I would assume that the child with the most threatening parents would have a good chance of being a more formidable adult themselves.
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Maollelujah - Nov 2, 2003 5:38 pm (#209 of 383)
. I mean, Voldemort isn't stupid, and he would have known (whether he heard the whole prophecy or not) that by killing Harry, Neville would become the one the prophecy was referring to by default. He would need to eliminate BOTH kids to be totally safe.
I think you are wrong. Voldermort is stupid. He has had many chances to kill Harry, but hasn't. I mean he could have killed Harry very easily when Harry was tied up in GoF, but had some complicated stupid plan instead. Tom Riddle probably could have killed Harry in CoS, but instead gave him a long talk and tried to let the big Snake do his bidding. He could have been there with his DE in the OotP and killed Harry with a quick killing curse, but didn't. At least once or twice Lucius could have killed Harry in OotP, but acting on Voldermort's orders didn't.
Face it Voldermort is pretty stupid. I really don't think he even has the slightest interest in Neville.
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Ovate - Nov 2, 2003 5:40 pm (#210 of 383)
How could Voldemort become the 2nd most powerful wizard in the world if he were stupid? Dumbledore said that Tom Riddle was a brilliant student.
"Tom's last year at Hogwarts was 1944-45. He was Prefect, Head boy and received a Medal for Magical Merit, Albus Dumbledore later said of him, “Brilliant. Of course, he was probably the most brilliant student Hogwarts has ever seen”." from the Voldemort page of the Lexicon.
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Maollelujah - Nov 2, 2003 6:10 pm (#211 of 383)
He was a brilliant student, but put that doesn't mean he is tactically smart, or does the right thing at the right time.
And If he was so brilliant/too smart why hasn't he killed Harry when he had the chance?
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Ovate - Nov 2, 2003 6:22 pm (#212 of 383)
In the first book Lily's love, with an assist from Dumbledore, saved Harry. In the second year, Harry was up against the memory of Tom Riddle as a 5th year student and Fawlkes saved Harry's Life. No confrontation in the third book. In the 4th book, Priori Incantatum saved Harry with an assist from echoes of Harry's parents, Cedric, Bertha Jorkins and the muggle Voldemort had killed. In the 5th book, Dumbledore saved Harry's life. Harry is a great wizard, but he's definitely been very lucky (and chosen his friends well too). Voldemort made it to the Sorceror's Stone in the first book, a difficult task indeed for him especially given that he didn't even have his own body. In the second book, we find out that Tom Riddle discovered the Chamber of Secrets, which even Dumbledore couldn't uncover and was smart enough to create that memory of himself in the diary. In the fourth book, he laid out a rather ingenious plan to capture Harry far from Hogwarts and away from Dumbledore's protection. He's not stupid, lot's of brilliant people fail for a variety of reasons, skillful enemise, overconfidence, and bad luck just to name three.
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Susurro Notities - Nov 2, 2003 6:24 pm (#213 of 383)
Is it possible that Voldemort feels he needs to kill Harry in battle? To prove his power?
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timrew - Nov 2, 2003 6:35 pm (#214 of 383)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
Let's face it. Voldemort is getting to be a laughing-stock among the DEs because of the number of times he has been bested by Harry Potter.
I should imagine that he wants to kill Harry in the most spectacular way possible, to show that he is the 'main man', and 'el numero uno magico honcho'.
Look out for fireworks (and not Doc Filibuster's), in book 6.
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Maollelujah - Nov 2, 2003 6:36 pm (#215 of 383)
All that is nice. But it doesn't change the fact that when Voldermort has had an easy chance to kill Harry with a simple killing curse, he has bungled it stupidly. (And he has had several chances.)
I believe that however smart or brilliant he is, his arrogance makes him rather stupid, almost ineptly stupid. None of his failures have come down to anything more than his own bumbling mishandling of the situation.
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Susurro Notities - Nov 2, 2003 6:47 pm (#216 of 383)
Edited by Nov 2, 2003 5:49 pm
Maybe Voldemort will give up on a spectacular defeat of Harry since he has failed so often. If he does things will get more dangerous for Harry - the quick kill will come with much less notice.
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timrew - Nov 2, 2003 6:50 pm (#217 of 383)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
That's true, Maollelujah. I think Voldemort is up there with the greatest of the Bond villians.
That is....if you're going to kill someone, then do it after explaining to them why they have to die; tell them all of your plans; boast how easy it's going to be to all of your followers - and then choose the most complicated, lengthy and unnecessary way in which you're going to kill them.
In other words, give them every chance to escape to fight another day.
Voldemort is ego on legs. Harry should have no trouble whatsoever finishing him off!
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Ovate - Nov 2, 2003 7:30 pm (#218 of 383)
Voldemort certainly has a large ego no doubt, but I count 4 times (if I include Tom Riddle's memory) where Voldemort had a chance to kill Harryand each time he was defeated something outside his control. 1) Harry as a baby? Stupidity? No it was Lily's love or some other strange unknown force in Harry, 2) Harry as a first year? Stupidity? No, it was because Fawlkes who prevents Harry's certain death. 3) Harry in his fourth year? Stupidity? No, Voldemort's wand didn't work against Harry's otherwise Harry is dead. 4) Fifth year? Stupidity? No, it was Harry who was stupid in the fifth book and he would have died if not for Dumbledore.
In addition, Harry is completely protected at the Dursley's and, for the most part, at Hogwart's. Voldemort has lured Harry into traps 3 times. Each time Harry was lucky to escape.
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A-is-for-Amy - Nov 2, 2003 8:35 pm (#219 of 383)
Mom of 2 boys
What I am saying, is I don't think that Voldemort knows that Neville was another possiblity for the prophecy (for whatever reason). Otherwise, he should have killed him off by now, just to be on the safe side. Why risk having Harry be killed and Neville somehow marked in the future to bring the prophecy to fruition?
I agree that Voldemort's ego is largely to blame for the GoF debacle, to untie Harry and give him a wand so that he could prove he was better.... that was just not prudent. Other than that, he has been pretty smart.
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Maollelujah - Nov 2, 2003 9:08 pm (#220 of 383)
1) Harry as a baby? Stupidity? No it was Lily's love or some other strange unknown force in Harry,
He wasn't smart enough to figure out if he killed her, Harry would have some extra protection. His own stupidity caused him be foiled. How simple would it have been to stun the Mom, kill the son.
2) Harry as a first year? Stupidity? No, it was because Fawlkes who prevents Harry's certain death.
It wasn't Fawlkes. He should have told Quirrell to 'kill the boy', instead of telling him to 'seize the boy'. It would have been easier to get the stone from a dead boy than a struggling live one. His brilliance once again wasted.
3) Second Year.
Instead of calling the stupid Basilisk, Riddle only had to cast the killing curse to do away with him, right at the beginning. Instead he waited for Harry to kill the stupid snake, then gave him a little lecture, then finally tried to kill him. Sound like a smart plan to you?
Just think there might have been two Voldermort's if he did.
3) Harry in his fourth year? Stupidity? No, Voldemort's wand didn't work against Harry's otherwise Harry is dead.
He had Harry tied up, without a wand, absolutely helpless. Some brilliant evil wizard Voldermort was, all he had to do was cast the spell get it over with, but rather he decided to let Harry go, give him a wand and a chance. Rather stupid.
4) Fifth year? Stupidity?
How many times could have one of his death eaters just killed him, instead of talking about the prophecy. One DE kills him, another one says 'accio prophecy' it is over. Or even Voldermort shows up with his Death Eaters and kills him. Does it go down like this? No rather, Voldermort sends in his DEs, they lose, because of his orders, then like the idiot he is, he shows up to late to kill Harry.
Brilliant Evil Overlord or Bumbling Dark Lord? You be the judge.
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Weeny Owl - Nov 2, 2003 9:24 pm (#221 of 383)
I don't think he's bumbling, and brilliance doesn't always work out in the real world. He certainly didn't think through the possible ramifications of the Prophecy, or at least the part he heard.
I see him more as intellectually gifted, and while he has a brilliant mind, he doesn't see that his plans have flaws.
He is incredibly arrogant, and that manifests itself in many ways. In GoF, for instance, he didn't see that Harry had a way out at all. Harry was surrounded by a group of Death Eaters and he was injured... how could one person escape all of that? Granted, it would be logical and practical just to kill him, but Voldie had to show his Death Eaters that he was still, according to his conceit and arrogance, the most powerful wizard ever, and that he had lost none of his power while being gone thirteen years.
He is too consumed with himself and his vision of what he is. He just cannot fathom that anyone would dare defy him and win. He must make people bow to him and his wishes. He must make people fear him.
Since he's so arrogant, he would probably overlook someone like Neville. After all, he's probably heard from Lucius (through Draco) that Neville isn't always the best wizard around. Even with what the Prophecy says, Voldie would most likely feel that a child, and one who doesn't seem to be gifted with magic, would hardly be a threat.
Voldie's arrogance about the Prophecy, about Harry, and possibly about quite a few other things may be his downfall.
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Maollelujah - Nov 2, 2003 9:45 pm (#222 of 383)
I agree Voldermort is a brilliant student of magic, and brilliant user of magic. I also agree that he is an arrogant Evil Wizard, and it is my simple opinion that his brilliance will always be snuffed out by his arrogance. I mean you have to agree Voldermort's performance has been rather sub-standard so far: one foolish mistake after another.
So on Pinky's request let me tie this in with the prophecy...
With all his infinite brilliance Voldermort knows that he couldn't have been wrong in choosing Harry. He probably has never even given Neville a moments notice, because the minute he heard of the prophecy, he arrogantly knew it was the Potter kid.
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Pinky - Nov 2, 2003 9:49 pm (#223 of 383)
La la narf!
Just a quick reminder: while this is fascinating stuff that you are discussing, it is straying a bit from directly talking about the prophecy. Maybe this could be discussed more in depth in the Voldemort thread?
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I Am Used Vlad - Nov 2, 2003 10:13 pm (#224 of 383)
I Am Almighty!
Has anyone considered that Voldemort could have been defied by people who were not members of the Order. Dumbledore says that the prophecy "could have applied to two wizard boys, both born at the end of July that year, both of whom had parents in the Order of the Phoenix, both sets of parents having narrowly escaped Voldemort three times." This means that among children of members of the Order, the prophecy could only refer to Harry or Neville.
But Dumbledore would not have knowledge of the actions of all parents of wizards born at the time of the prophecy. Voldemort could have been defied three times by one of his Death Eaters, and Dumbledore would not have known.
It is possible that "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" is neither Harry nor Neville.
It's probably not Hermione, unless Voldemort had some bad dental work done(just joking), but any child of Death Eaters in Harry's year could be the One.
What is Draco's birthday, anyway?
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Ovate - Nov 3, 2003 8:13 am (#225 of 383)
I think that we all can agree that Voldemort is often blinded by arrogance. In my opinion, the books show that heart will trump cunning in the end. I still believe that Neville is a possible answer to the prophecy. If he put a spell on Neville to remove his magical potential, it may well have been arrogance that blinded him to the possibility that some kernal of magic in Neville could have been hidden from him. Perhaps we're just using the word stupidity differently.
(Sorry, I meant Dumbledore not Fawlkes in Harry's first year. I think that Voldemort told Quirrell to seize Harry rather than kill him because he wanted Harry to tell him where the stone was hidden first.)
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Sly Girl - Nov 3, 2003 11:12 am (#226 of 383)
I think the key to the whole bit between Dumbledore and Harry about the Prophecy again relates to CHOICE. Dumbledore makes a point of pointing it out to Harry- Voldemort CHOSE Harry. He chose the half-blood, the one like himself. This, more than anything, points to Voldemort's thoughts on the matter. It doesn't matter if he knows about Neville or not- he wanted the Potter child to be it.
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Ovate - Nov 3, 2003 12:04 pm (#227 of 383)
Really, I don't want to argue, but there is no way that we can know that Voldemort didn't secretly do something to Neville before he attacked Harry. We just don't know. I think that Dumbledore was talking about Moral choices and its true the stories are also about that.
I know I'm repeating myself, but the Prophecy DOES NOT say that Voldemort "marked his equal". It says that he "marked him as his equal" and those just are not equivalent statements. I have an exam question that asks me to mark Mars, I mistakenly mark the fifth planet Venus, but I marked it "as Mars". I fill out a form that asks me to mark my income. My income is say 12,000 galleons, but I want to impress someone, so I mark 50,000 galleons, its not really my income, but I marked it "as my income".
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!!!!!LauraAngel - Nov 3, 2003 1:02 pm (#228 of 383)
"If you attempt to — er — 'bring me in' by force, I will have to hurt you." - Albus Dumbledore
Good point, but what does it lead to? That Harry isn't equal to Voldemort? Or that Harry is worth more that Voldemort?...
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A-is-for-Amy - Nov 3, 2003 2:55 pm (#229 of 383)
Mom of 2 boys
Maybe Harry can obtain the Hand of Glory (I believe JKR said that Draco now owns it?), then use it to kill Voldemort per the prophecy! Either must die at the Hand of the other?
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Ovate - Nov 3, 2003 2:56 pm (#230 of 383)
It suggests that it doesn't matter that Harry and LV are both half-bloods. LV could have marked Neville "as his equal" even though Neville is a pureblood. Neville could be marked in two ways. First, his abysmal memory could have been caused by a spell cast by LV. The spell had left its mark. Second, casting a spell on Neville rather than trying to kill him, as he did Harry, (falsely) marks Neville "as his (social) equal". The purebloods are under the false impression that LV is also a pureblood and LV wants to maintain that deception. So instead of marking Harry, his true equal, he falsely marks Neville, indicating to his Death Eaters the high value he places on pureblood. No doubt he left a mark on Harry, even though he didn't intend to. But it might be that he marked both of them, one who is his equal (Harry) and one "as his equal" because he wants people to think Neville is his equal.
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Maollelujah - Nov 3, 2003 3:28 pm (#231 of 383)
Ovate: The only problem with your idea of Voldermort attacking Neville and marking him as the one in the prophecy with some spell is that there is nothing in the books that back it up. Your only evidence is "we don't know that it didn't happen" and wishful thinking. With those two key points we could make anyone the the boy in the prophecy.
Ron? We've never seen his birth certificate, so maybe his real birthday is in July, but his parents secretly have been telling him it is in March. And once a year on his real birthday, Voldie sends him birthday card saying "I am marking you as my equal." None of it is based on the books, but we don't know it didn't happen...
I really think it is about choice, like Sly Girl says. Voldermort had a choice and he made it.
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Susurro Notities - Nov 3, 2003 5:37 pm (#232 of 383)
"The purebloods are under the false impression that LV is also a pureblood and LV wants to maintain that deception."
The purebloods may have thought Voldemort was a pureblood but after the graveyard scene in GoF they now know he is a halfblood."
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Ovate - Nov 3, 2003 6:50 pm (#233 of 383)
Susurro, I think that only Peter was there when Voldemort mentioned his muggle father to Harry and I'm not sure that Peter even heard him. Bellatrix in OotP goes a little crazy when Harry calls Voldemort a half-blood.
I agree that there is no obvious evidence for Neville, I wouldn't expect anything obvious right now otherwise it would spoil the surprise at the end (if there is a surprise), but there are clues, which I've discussed extensively before. Neville's name is suspcious. His name connects him symbolically with two famous deals made by decent people with evil personages, one cut with Hitler by NEVILLE Chamberlain and in LOTR another deal is cut by some hobbits with the evil Wizard Saruman that is eventually revealed by a stash of LONGBOTTOM tobacco leaf that was found at his residence. I don't think his name is just a coincidence. And Neville's poor memory does mark him (I know that we don't have a clue why his memory is so bad, but at least he does have something that might be considered a mark).
The way Gran dresses is suspicious: she always wears a fox fur hat. Foxes symbolizes cunning, a Slytherin trait. The hat has a vulture perched on it. Vultures are literally "death eaters". Gran wears a long green dress and long green gloves. Green is a Slytherin color. Gran has clawlike hands. Claws are grasping. Grasping people are typically ambitious, a Slytherin trait. Gran may be about Voldemort's age. I think she was probably a Slytherin at Hogwarts (based on the way she dresses). She would have known Tom Riddle very well if this is the case. Perhaps they even had a friendship of sorts. (We don't know Gran's name. Might it be Olive?)
The fact that the Death Eaters tortured the Longbottoms and apparently no one else immediately after Voldemort's fall is suspicious. Why would think that the Longbottoms would have any information about Voldemort's whereabouts?
JKR has major twists at the end of each of her first four books. Snape appears to be trying to kill Harry at a Quidditch match, but it turned out he was really trying to rescue him. Initially, Tom Riddle appears to have saved Hogwarts from the monster from the Chamber of Secrets, but we all know how that turned out. Sirius appears to be a terrible criminal, but actually he was falsely accused and he risked everything to track down the real criminal. At first, Moody appears to be a really cool DADA teacher, but as Dean Thomas said he turned out to be a maniac. Oddly, no major twist occured in the fifth book. I expect that the ending of the final book will have a doozy of a twist.
Right now there seems to be a lot of evidence that Harry is the One, but it would have to appear that way at this point for any twist to work at the end of book 7.
Harry also just doesn't have a killer instinct. Harry wouldn't kill Sirius when he thought that he was responsible for his parents death. The same for Peter. And he didn't even have it in him to generate a proper Cruciatus (sp) curse on Bellatrix after she killed Sirius. I think that Harry might corner LV in the end, but just like Dumbledore, I don't think that he will want to kill him.
Finally, if Neville is not to play a role in the ending, then even mentioning him at all in the chapter about the Prophecy was a waste of ink.
Just my opinion.
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Maollelujah - Nov 3, 2003 7:59 pm (#234 of 383)
I guess this just proves that all Harry Potter fans are either a Luna Lovegood or a Hermione Granger when it comes theories.
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Ovate - Nov 3, 2003 8:50 pm (#235 of 383)
hmmm...
Funny guy. I hate to do this, but I don't enjoy being insulted just because we have differing opinions.
Ph.D in molecular biology at UCLA.
Post-doctoral fellowship at MIT.
Try to refrain from personal attacks. Its not nice. (I do kind of like Luna though and she is in Ravenclaw.)
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Susurro Notities - Nov 3, 2003 9:40 pm (#236 of 383)
Edited by Nov 3, 2003 8:43 pm
"I think that only Peter was there when Voldemort mentioned his muggle father to Harry and I'm not sure that Peter even heard him."
Ovate,
Prior to the arrival of the DEs Voldemort made his speech to Harry about his Muggle father. While he made this speech he is described as pacing "...up and down before Harry and Wormtail..." (p.646 GoF, US) It would seem he would have to project his voice so that Harry could hear him as he paced. Wormtail although occupied with pain is likely to have heard and taken in his master's halfblood history.
Note also that on p. 647 it GoF says the DEs formed "...a silent circle that enclosed Tom Riddle's grave, Harry, Voldemort, and the sobbing and twitching heap that was Wormtail." and on p.656 GoF(US)Voldemort is explaining his return he says "My father's bone, naturally, meant we would have to come here where he is buried." If the DEs did not already know Voldemort was originally Tom Riddle Jr. they would now know. They would also know that Riddle is not a pureblood name. I might also guess that the cemetery they are in would not be a typical burial place for wizards. Although we have not been told of the disposition of any wizard bodies my bet would be that they are not buried in Muggle cemeteries.
Additionally at Hogwarts everyone seems to know who is pureblood and who is not. Someone among the DEs must know of Voldemort's Hogwart days.
Ok this is a bit of overkill but I think at least some of the DEs know Voldemort is not a pureblood.
Now as to the Luna/Hermione issue. Gee Ovate I have been a Hermione for much of my life too - I think I might like being a Luna, smart but relaxed!
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Ovate - Nov 3, 2003 10:07 pm (#237 of 383)
Oh I have nothing against Luna. She's one of my favorite characters. After all, she can see the Thestrals and hear the voices behind the veil. I'm not saying I'm right, but I don't see anything illogical about what I've written. I admit that the evidence for Harry is strong, and for Neville speculation, based on numerous clues from which inferences can be drawn, is required, but I think it would be quite boring if there is not a major surprise at the end of book 7. JKR has said that she is very fond of major twists at the end of novels, especially those that people can't see coming.
You make a strong case for, at least, some Death Eater's knowing that Voldemort is a half-blood at this point, but Bellatrix obviously believes that he is a pureblood and the suggestion that he is not drives her crazy. Of course, she has been in Azkhaban for quite awhile. What kind of impact do you think that knowing Voldemort is not pureblood would have on the Death Eaters? Perhaps they overlook this fault in LV because he is Slytherin's heir.
I should point out that I'm also a rather poor skier. ;-)
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Maollelujah - Nov 3, 2003 10:17 pm (#238 of 383)
Sorry if you found it offensive, it wasn't meant that way. I wasn't trying to call you crazy, nor saying that I am right and you are wrong. I was only trying to make a clever Potteresque play on our clashing viewpoints by using Hermione and Luna and apparently failed.
I think Hermione, like me, would have hard time believing that your theory about Neville and some other theories floating around on the board, because they aren't based only on facts that can be gleaned from the books. On the other hand Luna wouldn't have as much problem understaning them, because her worldy view doesn't seem to be based on only the raw facts.
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Ovate - Nov 3, 2003 10:19 pm (#239 of 383)
Maollelujah, I'm sorry for misinterpreting you. Besides I do like Luna.
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!!!!!LauraAngel - Nov 4, 2003 9:35 am (#240 of 383)
"If you attempt to — er — 'bring me in' by force, I will have to hurt you." - Albus Dumbledore
"JKR has major twists at the end of each of her first four books. Snape appears to be trying to kill Harry at a Quidditch match, but it turned out he was really trying to rescue him. Initially, Tom Riddle appears to have saved Hogwarts from the monster from the Chamber of Secrets, but we all know how that turned out. Sirius appears to be a terrible criminal, but actually he was falsely accused and he risked everything to track down the real criminal. At first, Moody appears to be a really cool DADA teacher, but as Dean Thomas said he turned out to be a maniac. Oddly, no major twist occurred in the fifth book. I expect that the ending of the final book will have a doozy of a twist.
Right now there seems to be a lot of evidence that Harry is the One, but it would have to appear that way at this point for any twist to work at the end of book 7."
It was always people around Harry who were twisted, never Harry himself. I know that JKR broke a pattern by not making a twist in OP but I still think it's unlikely that Harry will turn out to stand by and watch in the end (or play a smaller part than we expect)
"Harry also just doesn't have a killer instinct. Harry wouldn't kill Sirius when he thought that he was responsible for his parents death. The same for Peter. And he didn't even have it in him to generate a proper Cruciatus (sp) curse on Bellatrix after she killed Sirius. I think that Harry might corner LV in the end, but just like Dumbledore, I don't think that he will want to kill him."
Harry might have backed out,but in PA when he first made a corporeal Patronus, he explains to Hermione that he knew he could do it, because he had already done it. I think that might be a lead: Maybe Harry sees it as if he has to do it; like he has half-way already done it because it has been predicted. Like it’s something he will do no matter what (well,other wise he dies), and he will be able to because of this. Maybe Harry won’t even have to kill LV. Maybe they battle at the MoM and LV goes through the veil?
I just had to comment your post...
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Fawkesy Lady - Nov 4, 2003 9:51 am (#241 of 383)
We are all guessing whether or not Neville will be involved with regards to getting Voldy and the prophecy. JKR wrote Neville into the story and connected him with the prophecy just to give us something to mull over and argue about. I mean she didn't have to have his birthday during the seventh month or his parents evade the Dark Lord three times. So perhaps that Neville is a red herring for us to butt heads over and keep us away from what she is really cooking up.
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!!!!!LauraAngel - Nov 4, 2003 10:01 am (#242 of 383)
"If you attempt to — er — 'bring me in' by force, I will have to hurt you." - Albus Dumbledore
Then she would have been fooling us all along! So many brain cells wasted... But wouldn't it be hard to explain later why she mentioned Neville then? I mean, the book would have been long even without that part...
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Emily - Nov 4, 2003 4:21 pm (#243 of 383)
Post 233: Oddly, no major twist occured at the end of the fifth book.
I disagree. I definitely consider Sirius' death a twist. At least, I don't know many people, on this forum or off, who before or during the fifth book could have pointed him out and said, 'he's going'. And what about the prophecy? We didn't know half of it before then. The prophecy's existance in itself was a twist.
Second. About Voldemort being 'stupid'. I disagree with this, too. First, as others have pointed out, is choice. Next, you have something that even Dumbledore recognizes. This is that Voldemort always underestimates his enemies, to his own cost.
1. Harry as a baby. Voldemort admits to his Death Eaters in the graveyard in GoF that he did not see Lily's defence coming. He underestimated her.
2. Harry's first year - Quirrel/Sorcerer's(Philosepher's) stone. Voldemort believes that he can convince Harry to join him. He underestimates Harry.
3.Harry's second year - the basilisk/Tom Riddle. Tom wants to gloat over Harry how he's going to kill him. He says he's going to teach Harry a lesson with the basilisk. He thinks that Harry will be killed by it. When Harry kills it, instead, he claims that he prefers it this way. He had
4. Harry's fourth year - the graveyard. This example ties arrogance in with underestimation. He tries to prove 'once and for all' that he is beyond all doubt better that Harry. He would have been better off killing Harry while he was tied up. He was too arrogant. He then underestimated Harry by allowing him to fight. He thought that Harry, alone, injured, and surrounded by Death eaters, not to mention facing the most feared wizard of the age, and the second most powerful wizard, could not possibly stand a chance. Wrong again.
5. Harry's fifth year - the DoM. Voldemort underestimates Harry by sending Death Eaters to kill him and retrieve the Prophecy instead of doing it himself. He truly thought that a dozen or so of his Death Eaters could easily overtake Harry Potter and a few fourth and fifth year students; even when he had never done it himself. This, again, was arrogant of him, because he believed that he and his followers were more powerful than their opponents.
Dumbledore said that Voldemort was a brilliant student and a very powerful wizard; but it just doesn't matter when you've got the sort of character flaws that he has. If he had done the practical thing, and he did have several chances, he'd be well on his way to world domination. Because of, or more precisely, according to, the Prophecy, none but Harry can defeat him. His choices have shaped the story and the fate of the Wizarding World.
I'm truly sorry about the term paper, but I feel that this topic deserves thorough exploration.
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A-is-for-Amy - Nov 4, 2003 4:35 pm (#244 of 383)
Mom of 2 boys
I thought having Umbridge be the one who sent the dementors was a nice twist, as well.
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Tomoé - Nov 4, 2003 8:59 pm (#245 of 383)
Back in business
IMO, the major twist in OoP is Harry messing everything up.
In the four first books, Harry always came to save the year. He save the stone in his first year (even if DD could have handle this himself), he killed the basilisk in his second year, he found Sirius, the truth about his parents murder and saved two inocents from death in his third year, he escaped from a duel with Voldemort and survive to tell the tale in his fourth year.
In his fifth year, Harry took a lot of unnecessary risk, not listening to anyone and ended up with Sirius dead and his 5 DA members injured.
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Ovate - Nov 5, 2003 12:14 am (#246 of 383)
I suppose I wasn't clear. I meant a specific kind of twist i.e someone appears to be good (or bad) turns out to be otherwise in the end.
book 1: Snape appears to be trying to kill Harry, but actually was really trying to save him. Quirrell seems to be resisting Snape's attempts to get the Stone, but is really trying to procure it for LV.
book 2: Tom Riddle who at first appears to be a model student who saved Hogwarts (50 years ago) from the CoS monster, turns out to be Slytherin's heir.
book 3: Sirius is introduced as a traitor and a murderer, but it turns out to be good.
book 4: Mad-Eye Moody, appears to be a cool DADA teacher, but is actually evil Barty Crouch Jr.
I didn't mean to imply that there weren't other kinds of twists, just not twists where someone who is not what he appears to be (in the sense of which side they are actually on).
In CoS, chapter 1, page 8, LV is desribed as "still terrifying, still CUNNING, still determined."
As far as I know, someone who is cunning is ingenious and clever, not stupid. I'm not saying that he hasn't made mistakes, but then again so has Dumbledore (leaving for London when he should have stayed at Hogwarts while the Stone was there; allowing Snape to teach Harry occlumency; not telling Harry about the prophecy sooner.)
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Fawkesy Lady - Nov 5, 2003 10:25 am (#247 of 383)
I have often heard that very brilliant people may not be so brilliant when it comes to common sense. I think that is what Ovate is trying to illustrate about Voldy underestimating Harry. Even though he is smart and powerful, he doesn't do what most people would consider the obvious or most common thing.
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!!!!!LauraAngel - Nov 5, 2003 12:34 pm (#248 of 383)
"If you attempt to — er — 'bring me in' by force, I will have to hurt you." - Albus Dumbledore
Ovate, I think they were correcting me. I just followed up on what you'd already said and didn't explain myself properly.
[...]he doesn't do what most people would consider the obvious or most common thing.
No, I think that is very clear... If most people walked around and killed whoever disagreed with them...
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scully jones - Nov 23, 2003 11:59 pm (#249 of 383)
yeah right
People keep pointing out that Tom Riddle was "stupid" or otherwise for sicking the basilisk on Harry instead of just killing him outright. Tom could hold a wand just fine, but as a memory-not-quite-finished-becoming-real, could he have actually used it? I don't think so. Did he use any spells other than speaking parseltongue? He sicked the basilisk on Harry because that was his only weapon.
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A-is-for-Amy - Nov 24, 2003 10:29 am (#250 of 383)
Mom of 2 boys
He did use the wand to write his name in the air and then demonstrate how the rearrangement of letters spelled out "I am Lord Voldmeort."
I think you are right, though. I'm not convinced that he would have been able to do such a powerful spell until Ginny was actually dead.
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The Prophecy (Post 251 to 300)
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!!!!!LauraAngel - Nov 30, 2003 12:06 pm (#251 of 383)
"If you attempt to — er — 'bring me in' by force, I will have to hurt you." - Albus Dumbledore
Yeah, that's probably right.
I don't think LV's stupid. He's a great strategist. I bet he could beat Ron at chess any time. He has an excellent overview and can keep many balls in the air at the same time. But he does have a tendency to miss some important things sometimes. But on the other hand, if he didn't Harry would probably be dead and LV would be ruling the world and then we wouldn't have anything to read about!
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HP Fan - Dec 5, 2003 3:10 pm (#252 of 383)
I think the fact Voldemort chose Harry not Neville is significant. In that he did see himself in Harry, as a half-blood. I think Voldemort preaches the Pure-blood mantra but because he knows he is half-blood and that he is so powerful. I.E., he came from what Pure-blood's such as Malfoy and Bellatrix see as an inferior position within the Wizarding world to become the most feared, and one of the most powerful wizards therefore if he could do it what's to say that this half-blood boy born as the "Seventh Month dies" can't do the same and become the most powerful. What we hate and fear in others is often what we see in ourselves.
Does that make any sense at all? I'm not sure I've been a lucid as I could have been.
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Susurro Notities - Dec 5, 2003 4:31 pm (#253 of 383)
Edited by Dec 5, 2003 3:31 pm
"What we hate and fear in others is often what we see in ourselves." Nicely said and convincing.
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HP Fan - Dec 6, 2003 11:00 am (#254 of 383)
Thanks
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Flame Alligator - Jan 7, 2004 4:30 am (#255 of 383)
Yes, I think Dumbledore has interpreted The Prophecy correctly. He is centuries old and has probably seen more than mere mortals can imagine. Dumbledore is often regarded as "the greatest wizard in the world". His interpretation rings true. Harry must kill the Dark Lord or be kill himself. I consider this to be self defense and not murder. This is also, Justice, as Voldemort has had quite the time murdering and causing a great deal of suffering. If nothing else, Harry is moral. He is naughty sometimes as any boy is but in the end, he does what is necessary and just. In SS, he defends himself resulting in the death of Professor Quirel. I just hope Ron, Hermione and even Neville are with him in the final battle to help him not only defeat Voldemort but carry the burden of having to murder someone. Voldemort will not stop until Harry is dead. Voldemort must be defeated by Harry.
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Slyangel - Jan 7, 2004 3:22 pm (#256 of 383)
I agree that Dumbledore has the correct interpretation; to have him contradicted at this point would be an indelible black mark on his record as the Sage Guide & Leader--I just can't see JKR doing this to our beloved Dumbly. I know he's made mistakes, but they've resulted from a lack of judgment, not ineptitude.
Do you think the Shrieking Shack confrontation, in PoA, was a preparation for Harry's fatal and final confrontation with Voldemort? Was the notion of taking another life, in this case Sirius's, being introduced to Harry's psyche, giving him something to chew over in those quiet moments after his discussion with Dumbledore near the end of OoTP? (Or maybe JKR was simply playing up the drama of the moment for all it was worth.) And knowing how difficult it was for Harry to exact violent revenge--another example is his lame Cruciatus curse in OoTP; Bellatrix says something along the lines of "You have to want to hurt me!"--will he be able to kill Voldemort when the time comes? Me, I just don't see it. If an Avada Kedavra curse has to be backed by murderous intent, I don't see how Harry's ever going to be able to successfully execute a killing spell. Maybe V will lose his wand, they'll wrestle, and his death will be accidental. I don't know. I just can't envision Harry willfully killing Voldemort.
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Flame Alligator - Jan 8, 2004 10:31 am (#257 of 383)
If JKR has Voldemort killed by accident, I will be greatly disappointed, as I think Harry has the making of a great auror. Possibly, surpass Mad Eye Moody. Harry is still young. As I said he is moral. Being moral does not mean being innocent and purely good. To be moral is to do what is right. Evil has to be vanquished. We are on a journey with Harry. He is our hero. Voldemort must be defeated by Harry. JKR indeed was introducing the idea of killing in Harry's psyche and to us. In Chamber of Secrets, Dumbledore told Harry that some of Voldemorts powers were transferred to Harry. Perhaps Harry received some of Voldemort's darkness which will result in the Dark Lord's defeat.
What about Harry's father and his godfather, Sirius Black? Given the chance neither of them would have hesitated to kill Voldemort. I speculate that our hero has untapped fierocity which will enable him to get that Cruciatus curse up to par. Harry's favorite subject at Hogwart"s is Defense Against the Dark Arts. I, too, was disappointed in Harry's confrontation with Bellatrix resulting in Sirius Black's death. Then I thought, he's still young. He now has 3 deaths to avenge. Voldemort coming hard and fast every chance he gets. Harry better get it together. The older Harry gets the harder it will be for Voldemort to kill him. Of course, who knows Voldemor could fine a way to come back full force. Perhaps Dumbledore could take Harry under his wing and give him some advance training.
Our hero will have to darken his soul to defeat Voldemort?
Or how about this lame scenario?: Harry tries to kill Voldemort and some to Harry's personality gets transferred to Voldemort. That would really be lame!!!! (Smile)
Harry also needs more experience. When the time comes, he has to be calm and free of hot emotions. Then maybe he can pull a spectacular Cruciatus Curse or spell we don't know about yet.
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Madame Librarian - Jan 8, 2004 10:41 am (#258 of 383)
Flame (is it OK to call you by your first name alone?), believe it or not, but some of us have suggested the very thing you mention as a "lame scenario"--that is, Harry will overpower Voldie when he (Harry) somehow transfers the emotion of love back to him during a mind-sharing episode of legilimency/occlumency.
It will be like the Wicked Witch in Oz getting doused with all that water ("I'm m-e-e-e-elting!!!"). Voldie yells, "Oh, no, I'm in lo-o-o-v-e....!!!!" I am only half joking here.
Ciao. Barb
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timrew - Jan 8, 2004 12:44 pm (#259 of 383)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
And all the Death Eaters burst into a chorus of....
Hey, Ho, He's so in love,
The Dark, Dark Lord,
Our own Dark Lord!
Hey, Ho, The Dark, Dark Lord's in l-o-o-o-ve!!
And then they all hoist Harry on their shoulders, give him Voldemort's ruby slippers, and send him back to Kansas. Or am I getting two stories mixed up here.....?
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Julia. - Jan 8, 2004 1:11 pm (#260 of 383)
74% obsessed! Uconn Jew Crew says: is it August yet?
On my mother Tim! That was the funniest thing I've heard all week!
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OkieAngel - Jan 8, 2004 1:13 pm (#261 of 383)
Ah Tim, we can always count on you to add music to our lives here
As for the above theory being "lame", I don't think so at all. I have thought that love will be the thing that defeats Voldie, ultimately. Didn't we see in OP that he couldn't bear to stay in Harry's body once his thoughts and feelings turned towards Sirius?? However, it just may take the remainer of the series for our Boy Wonder to truly get a grip on his emotions and figure this out for himself, so that it is something that he can use as the ultimate weapon in the final battle, however JKR decides to play that out.
just my two knuts worth
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Dragonesss - Jan 8, 2004 2:55 pm (#262 of 383)
Edited by Jan 8, 2004 2:14 pm
"Lame scenario" deserves its own thread! How about "Love kills"?
`In a brief statement on Friday night, Minister for Magic Cornelius Fudge confirmed that He Who Must Not Be Named has died yesterday of the broken hart'
O, I'd love to see it happened! Or did it happen already? What if Harry's affection for Cho didn't just died out, but was transfered into Voldemort?
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Czarina - Jan 8, 2004 4:51 pm (#263 of 383)
Oh, puh-LEASE!
To get back on topic, I'd say that Harry's emotional state at the end of OoP is getting darker, even more so than at the beginning of the book. He will probably become even angrier in Book 6, to the point where he will be more than willing to administer the AK curse on Voldemort. I think the confrontation in Book 3 with Sirius was a very good case of foreshadowing. In that scene, our innocent young hero could not POSSIBLY kill anyone (the only thing he ever actually killed, I believe, was the Basilisk). In Book 4, he still can't kill Voldemort -- but he CAN overpower him. Logically, the last time these two meet in the series, Harry will be able to overpower the Dark Lord and be ABLE to kill him. He will be angry and hateful enough to do so.
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timrew - Jan 8, 2004 5:29 pm (#264 of 383)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I can't see Harry ever being capable of killing anyone. Pettigrew betrayed his parents to Voldemort, and was responsible for their deaths; but Harry begged Sirius and Lupin to spare him.
I honestly don't think that the series will end with Voldemort's death at Harry's hand. It would go against the grain of all the previous books - yes, including book 6 that no-one has read yet.
Good must be seen to have triumphed over evil, and I don't for a moment think that JKR will use murder to achieve this goal.
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Slyangel - Jan 8, 2004 8:18 pm (#265 of 383)
Definitely not at Harry's hand. I would be shocked if that were the case. To me, that would make Harry no better than Voldemort, to strike him down in cold blood (and as a Slytherin alumnus it really hurts me to say that ;-). I don't even see it happening in self-defense. But to die by love, what a singular idea! This I could see. It would give the phrase "kill 'em with kindness" a new slant, eh?
My scenario: Bellatrix is killed (ooh, let's say V does it himself), Harry inadvertently (or maybe intentionally) transfers his feelings of Love to V, V realizes that he was in love with Bellatrix all along; Voldemort, overcome with grief and remorse, kills himself. The end.
Seriously, though, do you think it's possible that Tom Riddle ever loved someone? Bellatrix...?
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Flame Alligator - Jan 9, 2004 6:35 am (#266 of 383)
Everybody please, feel free to call me Flame. I'm starting to feel like part of the family Madame Librarian.
Am I the only one who thinks Harry should kill Voldemort? Although it's the wizard world, Voldemort is a serial killer. How about this? Somehow Voldemort is captured. Seems impossible but let's suppose. He is sent to Azkaban and the Death Eaters suck the joy out of him for eternity. In this scenario, our dear Harry doesn't have to kill him and Voldemort is punished for his evil deeds. Of course, he might escape. Sirius Black managed it quite cleverly.
Harry expressed a desire to become auror. Aren't they licensed to kill/execute on capturing? Why do you think he is attracted to that profession? Vanquishing evil may just be his calling. Voldemort may just be the beginning. Harry's personality darkens a little in each book although he still manages a relatively possitive outlook on life.
What about Neville? Where is he in regard to The Prophecy? I would love to hear any ideas?
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Joost! - Jan 9, 2004 6:54 am (#267 of 383)
Second line of information
I don't think Harry should kill Voldemort, but I think he will. Voldemort must be stopped no matter what. But if Harry would use Avada Kedavra on him after he's captured, Harry cannot be the good guy of the story anymore. To me he will have chosen the dark side. If Voldemort gets killed during battle and it's either him or someone else, then sure let him be killed. It all depends on the situation, I guess. I hope Harry won't use a simple Avada Kedavra to end it.
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mollis - Jan 9, 2004 7:27 am (#268 of 383)
My opinion is the opposite of Joost's, I think Harry should kill Voldy, but I don't think he will. Harry will not be able to AK (Avada Kedavra)Voldy, due to the priori incantatem (sp?) This series will not come down to a battle with wands, but more of an emotional battle of wills. It will be some freak occurrence that will somehow allow Harry to destroy Voldy by exposing him to love (or some sort). And I am starting to accept the idea that Voldemort (& his powers) will be destroyed leaving Tom Riddle behind, to do penance for his actions.
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Flame Alligator - Jan 9, 2004 7:30 am (#269 of 383)
Joost,
If Harry kills Voldemort, he may not be the "good guy" anymore but he will be The Hero and that is what counts. Ah yes, I, too, will lament somewhat that he will no longer be as sweet. He would become a formidable force that works for good and there is where he would be different not the same as Voldemort. Harry is not power mad as is Voldemort. Who knows maybe Neville will share this burden. I will still love Harry even if he turns "Killer of evildoers, defender of the good.
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Flame Alligator - Jan 9, 2004 7:35 am (#270 of 383)
mollis,
I like your scenario. Wasn't Tom Riddle evil before he became Voldemort. Isn't that why Dumbledore kept his eye on him?
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FCBarca - Jan 9, 2004 7:38 am (#271 of 383)
I wouldn't class Voldemort as a serial killer. Voldemort kills for a reason, serial killer's kill for fun. I know you could say that Voldemort kills for fun, but concerning the Prophecy, I can't see how anyone could say he was going to kill Harry for fun (I know no-one has said that, but I'm just mentioning it, just in case someone was thinking of it that way).
From Voldemort's point of view, he's trying to conquer the world, and he know's that there is someone who could stop him, he's not going to let them grow up, become powerful and try to stop him.
I personally wouldn't have tried to kill Harry when he was a baby. I would have let him grow up, have a stab at his destiny, and would kill him then, although I can certainly understand why Voldemort would try to kill him when he was a baby.
The Prophecy is what has shaped the current situation, and as the Prophecy knew what was going to happen, I'm sure the part about one of them will die at the hand of the other will be true as well. I can't see that Harry will kill Voldemort with love being true, as much as I understand the reasoning, and that there are no glitches in anyone's theory concerning Voldemorts defeat at the hand's of love, I think that what Harry will kill Voldemort with will be something we haven't seen yet, something that will be introduced in the next book.
A lot of people I think haven't taken into account that almost everything is in place to go straight to the last book. The Ministry now knows that Voldemort is back, and we now know that Harry is the only one who can kill Voldemort, so why is there two books remaining instead of one? I think that the next book will have a strong plot, concerning two things, unlike the last book, where the book was made up of little plots instead of one big plot like the previous four books before it. The only questions that haven't been answered are why Harry is the only one who can kill Voldemort, and why neither can live while the other survives, and I can't see the next book being based around those questions. I think we should look ahead and think, what will happen in the next book that will influence Harry in his fight against Voldemort (however he will fight him)? I think that something will be revealed in the next book concerning Harry and Voldemort, and I believe it to be that there is more to the Prophecy than Dumbledore showed us, something that will give Harry hope and confidence that he can kill Voldemort.
I believe the plot of the next book will be based around my theory of the DADA teacher who was once Voldemort's mentor (that's right, the theory that no-one likes ), and that he is now trying to kill Voldemort, and he starts killing his Death Eaters, and it becomes apparent to Dumbledore that they seem to have an unknown ally, and Harry is wondering who this person is.
I think though that the Prophecy will play an important part in the plot of the next book, and that more will be revealed about why Harry is the only one who can kill the greatest wizard of all time, Voldemort.
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Joost! - Jan 9, 2004 7:48 am (#272 of 383)
Second line of information
Mollis, it's funny, I think the same thing will happen, well, maybe Riddle won't be left behind, but basically that's what I think will happen. So let me rephrase: I think Voldemort will die and it will be Harry who makes it happen.
Flame, to me the "good guy" and the "hero" are the same person. Who is Harry to decide if Voldemort should live or die? He's just a kid, he shouldn't make a decision like that.
Edit: We crossed posts, Barca. I think you're absolutly right about book six (except maybe the DADA teacher theory ).
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mollis - Jan 9, 2004 7:55 am (#273 of 383)
Edited by Jan 9, 2004 6:57 am
Flame- I agree that Tom wasn't necessarily "good", but he wasn't evil at that point either. I think that while he remained Tom, he was redeemable, he could still be saved. That is where the idea comes from. Also, you can go back and edit your post for up to 30 minutes. Double posts are frowned upon.
FC- I don't know that I agree with you, but I am curious, what do you think DD didn't tell us about the prophecy? I do think that there is much more for us to learn in Book 6 to prepare us and Harry for the final battle. However, there is certainly no shortage of questions the forum-folk here would love to see answered. Probably enough to fill several more books!
EDIT: Joost- Hee, Hee! We crossed posts too! I'm glad you agree with me! I just don't think JKR will have the series end with murder, either way.
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Madame Librarian - Jan 9, 2004 9:29 am (#274 of 383)
Does anyone think that Trelawney will utter another prophecy that will add to or alter the one we're all concerned about here?
A large point was made about keeping her at Hogwarts--surely for her own safety so Voldie wouldn't be able to drag the whole prophecy out of her with torture and magic, but also because she's a bit of a loose cannon when pronouncements are concerned. She just up and goes into a trance, and...!voila!...you have a prophecy.
Also, let's keep in mind that problematic choice of word "vanquish." That can be interpreted lots of different ways besides "kill." In fact, I suspect JKR was quite particular in her phrasing here. Also, the "either must die at the hand of the other" business still doesn't equate to a situation involving murder. Tons of wiggle room here on the language of the prophecy.
Ciao. Barb
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Weeny Owl - Jan 9, 2004 9:43 am (#275 of 383)
Harry killing Voldie in the midst of battle isn't murder, but I don't see JKR having Harry Avada Kedavra Voldie. That's just not her style. She's leading up to something that won't be an ordinary wizard battle.
I find it interesting that the Prophecy never actually mentions Voldie, but says "the Dark Lord." That makes me think that the differences between Tom Riddle and Lord Voldemort are significant.
Harry could kill the part of this being that is the Dark Lord leaving what's left (the Tom Riddle part) to be dealt with separately.
I keep thinking of the doors into the Chamber of Secrets... two entwined snakes with emerald eyes. We still don't know what color Tom Riddle's eyes are except that they have a reddish look. I also think it's significant that Voldie possessed Harry for a bit in OotP. JKR might have Harry possess Voldie at the end, and vanquish him with the "power the Dark Lord knows not."
Tom Riddle may be evil, but until he left Hogwarts, he wasn't truly the Dark Lord yet. The Prophecy doesn't say Harry has to vanquish evil... only that he has the power to vanquish the Dark Lord.
Edit: I agree with you, Barb, about JKR's phraseology. She does leave quite a bit of wiggle room with "vanquish," "Dark Lord," and "either must die at the hand of the other."
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Flame Alligator - Jan 9, 2004 9:44 am (#276 of 383)
FC Barca. I like your theory about the unknown aly who is may also be the new DADA teacher.
Voldemort wants to conquer the world for power. We don't know enough about him except he is driven by inferiority (muggle parentage) from his perspective. He would kill all "mud bloods". Serial killers often have "reasons" for killing.
I agree that The Prophecy will stand true. Prophecies can be ambiguous but this time I think it will stand true unless JKR decides to manipulate the story to keep Harry's hands clean. I agree with the idea that we have not seen the curse, spell or whatever Harry will need to defeat Voldemort.
Joost,
If Harry is caught alone with Voldemort alone and the battle begins what would you have Harry do?
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FCBarca - Jan 9, 2004 9:47 am (#277 of 383)
Mollis, sorry, I forgot to mention it. Because Dumbledore said the reason why Voldemort wanted to hear the Prophecy was to find out how to destroy Harry. But the Prophecy never said anything about how Voldemort would destroy Harry, which makes me think there is more.
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mollis - Jan 9, 2004 12:12 pm (#278 of 383)
See, I think that Voldy wanted to hear the prophecy because he didn't completely trust the DE that overheard it. And he may have thought there was more, since the DE was caught before hearing the end of it. He wanted to get the prophesy to hear the ending of it, which he is completely unaware of. Which means, that since Harry has now heard it, he really need to master occlumency so that Voldy can't peak inside Harry's head the hear it all.
As for a third prediction, Madame Librarian, I have mixed feelings. Mostly I think, been there done that, but it could happen. But considering that in the past 16 years she's only made 2 predictions, I think its hoping for a lot to have another one so soon.
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mollis - Jan 9, 2004 12:53 pm (#279 of 383)
Okay, sorry for the double post, but time has expired to edit.
A note on the word vanquished. Not only is it ambiguous, leaving room to think Tom may survive when Voldy is destroyed, but it has been used before. OOTP, pg 835(Am ed.): "Voldemort had been vanquished" DD is telling Harry about the night his parents died, and explaining why he needed to live at the Dursley's. In that instance, Voldy was vanquished, but not completely destroyed. A piece of him survived, granted, the bad piece, but still, vanquished and not gone. Perhaps if he is vanquished in a different way, Tom (the good part - if there is one)will survive.
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FCBarca - Jan 9, 2004 1:04 pm (#280 of 383)
I forgot about that line, mollis. The only problem is that Dumbledore said that Harry is the only one who can destroy the Voldemort.
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siobhan - Jan 9, 2004 1:19 pm (#281 of 383)
A note on the 6th book. I read on another forum that the 6th book was to be about Harry's struggle to fulfil the Prophesy. Thinking he is ready he fights Voldemort but at the end of the book Voldemort gains the upper hand. It sounds promising as we still have two books to go and one sure plot(the fulfillment of the prophesy)
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mollis - Jan 9, 2004 1:34 pm (#282 of 383)
Edited by Jan 9, 2004 12:57 pm
FC - Where does DD say that? I just checked my book and didn't find it. Thanks!
added after FC's next post: Okay, so DD said Harry could "conquer" the Dark Lord, and the prophesy says "vanquish". I'm not sure where the problem comes in.
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FCBarca - Jan 9, 2004 1:43 pm (#283 of 383)
Sorry, I mis-phrased it. Dumbledore say's conquering. Chapter 'The Lost Prophecy', page 741 (British Edition), just after Harry has heard the Prophecy. "It...did that mean...what did that mean?",(Harry) "It meant (Dumbledore), that the person who has the only chance of conquering Lord Voldemort for good was born at the end of July, nearly sixteen years ago".
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Flame Alligator - Jan 10, 2004 4:45 am (#284 of 383)
Everyone is acting like Tom Riddle was a perfectly normal wizard before he "transforms" into Lord Voldemort. Wasn't he the one who set Hagrid up in CoS? Who murdered his parents?
I would love to see him imprisoned at Azkaban for eternity but his powers are phenonmenal. He, more than likely, would figure a way to escape. Unless, Dumbledore could invent some new magic, curse, spell, potion, whatever, to keep him imprisoned.
There is capital punishment in the wizard world. Weren't the dementors ordered to give Sirius a "kiss"?
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FCBarca - Jan 10, 2004 5:03 am (#285 of 383)
The Dementors wouldn't perform their kiss on Voldemort though, because they are Voldemort's 'natural allies.
Dumbledore said to Harry that whatever powers he uses, Voldemort would be able to break them, so maybe it is impossible for Dumbledore to keep Voldemort imprisoned.
When you say 'who killed his parents', do you mean Tom Riddle's parents? Because Tom killed his father, remember, and his mother died while giving birth to Tom.
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Emily - Jan 10, 2004 11:11 am (#286 of 383)
He killed his father and his grandparents on his father's side. This brings couple questions to mind. Would he have turned out differently if he had grown up with his mother? Does he still have grandparents on his mother's side?
Edit: just realized that because he was the last remaining descendant of Slytherin, so he could not have living grandparents.
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hopping hessian - Jan 10, 2004 11:28 am (#287 of 383)
"Extrodinary claims require extrordinary proof" -Bill Nye
Hi! This is my first post so...deep breath, here it goes.
I think many of the theories given on the prophecy here are very interesting. What I have to add concerns the question about Neville.
I am in the camp that doesn't believe that Neville will have much of a part to play in the downfall of Lord Thingy. Voldemort "marked" Harry as his equal and I sincerely hope that JKR did not give Harry's scare as a red-herring and Neville will be the one to finally defeat Voldemort as the series is about Harry. Neville was emotionally marked by the torture of his parents, but Voldemort was not responsible for that, his followers were. Neville will grow in importance, perhaps help Harry at the end, but it must be Harry who defeats the Dark Lord.
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Pinky - Jan 10, 2004 2:27 pm (#288 of 383)
La la narf!
Welcome hoppin hessien! Thanks for your first post ever! It's a big thing to get that first post out, but I'm sure you'll get quite good at posting. If you haven't seen it yet, be sure to check out the Neville thread. The question of how much a part Neville will play has popped up on a number of threads. You'll find people in both camps here. The problem with the prophecy is that JKR worded it ambigiously, so there are a number of ways to interpret it. I personally think that Neville will play some part in Voldemort's downfall, although I think Harry will do the major part of the action.
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C.A. Thom - Jan 10, 2004 3:46 pm (#289 of 383)
Hello, everyone, (my first post here!) I've just read through all the posts and I find all the theories incredibly intelligent and thought out. FC Barca - I, too, believe that it seems as if we should go right to book 7. Literally, in a modern myth, the hero usually must solve the problem without dependency on others. Of course, there may be others who try to help, but the hero is not dependent on anyone for support. JK has neatly eliminated Harry's last dependence by taking out Sirius. Now, Harry is ready to move on. Explaining the prophesy in book 5 is a clever way of setting him up for the final showdown. And I agree with you that something will most likely happen to warrant a book 6. In fact, there are still too many unanswered questions that need to be resolved, and to answer all of them in one book would be like Snoopy of the Peanuts cartoon tying up all the loose ends in the last chapter! For instance: 1. What about Wormtail? He is still indebted to Harry, and LV constantly dismisses him as worthless. Wormtail is very clearly disgusted with his life with LV (although he does seem enthralled with his new hand!) And as Marauder5 clearly pointed out, LV always manages to underestimate the power of others and overestimate his own self-worth. I think we will see some connection between Wormtail and Harry that will eventually help Harry vanquish the Dark Lord, and fulfill the prophecy. 2. What were the “3 times” with which the parents thwarted LV? It was mentioned in the prophecy. Why, if not of some importance? Was one of those times having a child that would vanquish the dark Lord? 3. What about Percy Weasley and his big mistake? (maybe not a big issue, but an issue nonetheless) 4. What about the Dursley's? Will there be more than meets the eye between Petunia and Dumbledore? Etc., etc., etc. (another thread - unanswered questions?) Also, the concept of more to the prophecy makes sense. (can't remember who brought it up - sorry!) Is there some information on how the confrontation might happen, or what Harry must specifically do to succeed? Just my thoughts, Thanks! CAT
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veraco - Jan 29, 2004 4:24 am (#290 of 383)
Hi! I was just reading your theories and I wanted to said that, to me, there are more ways of loosing a part of you than with the death of someone you loved and maybe we are not taking that in count here. There is, for example, loosing your innocence, as Harry has in OoP and with it a part of him that saw the world in a different way.
I think that Harry will die somehow at the end, maybe not physically but a part of him, an important one will be lost.
As for the dais and the voices in the room of death, Harry and Luna weren't the only ones attracted to it, Ginny and Neville where also, maybe because Neville lost his parents and Ginny lost a part of her in CoS?.
As for Neville, I don't know how big his part is going to be, but I'm sure he will improve much more than he did in OoP, specially since he will have a wand made for him and not for his dad, maybe this turns out to be more important that we think?.
(sorry if I made a mistake... my English is getting worse every day)
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dasmitts - Feb 19, 2004 9:45 pm (#291 of 383)
About the prophesy...
Here is a silly little theory my wife came up with, that sorta intrigued me.
Only making reference to the Bible not preaching here, ok?
Do yall remember John the Baptist? He came before (In the interest of keeping this non-religeous all call him "You-know-who. Not trying to be funny) you-know-who? John was sorta a foreshadowing of him..
Well, maybe Harry Potter is the John the Baptist of this story. A foreshadowing of the real "Chosen One" to come...Who?
Neville Longbottom.....Think about it.
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DayWalker - Feb 20, 2004 10:26 pm (#292 of 383)
While that is an interesting concept, I don't think it really flies because if Neville was You- know -who then the book (like the Bible) would be about him and not Harry.
I do think it is an interesting theory though.
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A-is-for-Amy - Feb 20, 2004 11:22 pm (#293 of 383)
Mom of 2 boys
If Harry is John the Baptist, then lets hope that Hermione doesn't end up as Salome!
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dasmitts - Feb 21, 2004 9:27 pm (#294 of 383)
DayWalker...........The point of the theory is that the book is about the John the Baptist charater, or Harry Potter....see? And Neville comes into play at the end...
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Dharma Spring - Feb 24, 2004 6:29 pm (#295 of 383)
dasmitts,
I like idea. I do not feel at all bound to believe that Harry has to be the one to kill/rid-the-world of Voldemort. I'm of the opinion that Harry will be the one to bring about the circumstance that make Voldemort's elimination possible. So why not compare this story to one that is biblical, given JK's stated religious position, and her literary choices up to now? What elements of the plot led your wife to this comparison?
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Luanee - Feb 25, 2004 1:02 am (#296 of 383)
When Dumbledore wrote "Dark Lord and (?)Harry Potter" on the prophecy, he wasn't sure whether Harry was the person the prophecy referred to hence the question mark (?) right? What happened if he wrote "Dark Lord and (?)Neville Longbottom" ? Would Neville be able to remove the prophecy from the shelf without going mad then?
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alexa - Feb 25, 2004 1:26 am (#297 of 383)
Luanee, I don't think Dumbledore 'wrote' on the Prophecy. I think he needed to ask the keeper of the Prophecy Hall to write on it.
See quotes from OoP: "Voldemort tried to kill you when you were a child because of a prophecy made shortly before your birth."
"The official record was re-labelled after Voldemort's attack on you as a child,' said Dumbledore. 'It seemed plain to the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy that Voldemort could only have tried to kill you because he knew you to be the one to whom Sybill was referring."
My question is, "Why did Dumbledore bother to keep a record of the Prophecy in the DOM?" His memory from the pensive alone is enough to let him recall what Sybill said. Why made something that was dangerous? It is all because of this Prophecy that Sirius died.
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Neville Longbottom - Feb 25, 2004 3:18 am (#298 of 383)
When Dumbledore wrote "Dark Lord and (?)Harry Potter" on the prophecy, he wasn't sure whether Harry was the person the prophecy referred to hence the question mark (?) right?
I think it was different. When the prophecy was labelled, it read: "The Dark Lord and (?)", then, after the attack of the Potters, it was relabelled to "The Dark Lord and (?) Harry Potter". Meaning that Harry's name was included behind the question mark.
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Madame Librarian - Feb 25, 2004 2:40 pm (#299 of 383)
I wonder if we will meet or hear more about the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy. Do you think he has to create another orb to replace the one smashed? When was the original made, and how? Is he the one who creates them? Is there a way to not have an orb created when a prophecy is made?
When Dumbledore says, "The official record was relabeled after Voldemort's attack on you as a child," said Dumbledore. "It seemed plain to the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy that Voldemort could only have tried to kill you because he knew you to be the one to whom Sibyll was referring" (OoP, ch. 37, pg. 842, US.)
Doesn't this imply that he knows the contents of the Prophecy? Is he now a target for the DEs? He could be tortured to tell what the Prophecy said, unless, of course, there is some crucial piece of information about this guy (or gal!) we don't have. Maybe he has sworn a magical oath of secrecy with regard to all the prophecies that offers him protection from that sort of thing (kind of like professional confidentiality between patient and doctor). If not, then don't we have a very large chink in the armor that keeps Voldie and the DEs from finding out the whole prophecy? What does everyone think?
Ciao. Barb
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Czarina - Feb 25, 2004 3:32 pm (#300 of 383)
It's probably a doctor-patient-like thing between the Keeper and the Prophecies. Maybe the keeper is mute? (magically or physically) Or perhaps the keeper is not a wizard at all, but some sort of non-human entity that thus has no eyes and Voldemort's skills as a Legilimens are useless? Finally, perhaps the Keeper of the Hall of Prophecies is blind AND mute. There would be little way for Voldemort to access the information.
Maybe Dumbledore just told the keeper bits of the Prophecy and the keeper made an educated guess about Harry Potter.
I think Voldemort will try another, more direct way of gaining knowledge of the Prophecy. If he is scared of Dumbledore, he will go after Trelawney, Harry or change his tactics altogether. In Book 6, he might just send Wormtail out for info.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
"If you attempt to — er — 'bring me in' by force, I will have to hurt you." - Albus Dumbledore
Yeah, that's probably right.
I don't think LV's stupid. He's a great strategist. I bet he could beat Ron at chess any time. He has an excellent overview and can keep many balls in the air at the same time. But he does have a tendency to miss some important things sometimes. But on the other hand, if he didn't Harry would probably be dead and LV would be ruling the world and then we wouldn't have anything to read about!
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HP Fan - Dec 5, 2003 3:10 pm (#252 of 383)
I think the fact Voldemort chose Harry not Neville is significant. In that he did see himself in Harry, as a half-blood. I think Voldemort preaches the Pure-blood mantra but because he knows he is half-blood and that he is so powerful. I.E., he came from what Pure-blood's such as Malfoy and Bellatrix see as an inferior position within the Wizarding world to become the most feared, and one of the most powerful wizards therefore if he could do it what's to say that this half-blood boy born as the "Seventh Month dies" can't do the same and become the most powerful. What we hate and fear in others is often what we see in ourselves.
Does that make any sense at all? I'm not sure I've been a lucid as I could have been.
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Susurro Notities - Dec 5, 2003 4:31 pm (#253 of 383)
Edited by Dec 5, 2003 3:31 pm
"What we hate and fear in others is often what we see in ourselves." Nicely said and convincing.
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HP Fan - Dec 6, 2003 11:00 am (#254 of 383)
Thanks
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Flame Alligator - Jan 7, 2004 4:30 am (#255 of 383)
Yes, I think Dumbledore has interpreted The Prophecy correctly. He is centuries old and has probably seen more than mere mortals can imagine. Dumbledore is often regarded as "the greatest wizard in the world". His interpretation rings true. Harry must kill the Dark Lord or be kill himself. I consider this to be self defense and not murder. This is also, Justice, as Voldemort has had quite the time murdering and causing a great deal of suffering. If nothing else, Harry is moral. He is naughty sometimes as any boy is but in the end, he does what is necessary and just. In SS, he defends himself resulting in the death of Professor Quirel. I just hope Ron, Hermione and even Neville are with him in the final battle to help him not only defeat Voldemort but carry the burden of having to murder someone. Voldemort will not stop until Harry is dead. Voldemort must be defeated by Harry.
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Slyangel - Jan 7, 2004 3:22 pm (#256 of 383)
I agree that Dumbledore has the correct interpretation; to have him contradicted at this point would be an indelible black mark on his record as the Sage Guide & Leader--I just can't see JKR doing this to our beloved Dumbly. I know he's made mistakes, but they've resulted from a lack of judgment, not ineptitude.
Do you think the Shrieking Shack confrontation, in PoA, was a preparation for Harry's fatal and final confrontation with Voldemort? Was the notion of taking another life, in this case Sirius's, being introduced to Harry's psyche, giving him something to chew over in those quiet moments after his discussion with Dumbledore near the end of OoTP? (Or maybe JKR was simply playing up the drama of the moment for all it was worth.) And knowing how difficult it was for Harry to exact violent revenge--another example is his lame Cruciatus curse in OoTP; Bellatrix says something along the lines of "You have to want to hurt me!"--will he be able to kill Voldemort when the time comes? Me, I just don't see it. If an Avada Kedavra curse has to be backed by murderous intent, I don't see how Harry's ever going to be able to successfully execute a killing spell. Maybe V will lose his wand, they'll wrestle, and his death will be accidental. I don't know. I just can't envision Harry willfully killing Voldemort.
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Flame Alligator - Jan 8, 2004 10:31 am (#257 of 383)
If JKR has Voldemort killed by accident, I will be greatly disappointed, as I think Harry has the making of a great auror. Possibly, surpass Mad Eye Moody. Harry is still young. As I said he is moral. Being moral does not mean being innocent and purely good. To be moral is to do what is right. Evil has to be vanquished. We are on a journey with Harry. He is our hero. Voldemort must be defeated by Harry. JKR indeed was introducing the idea of killing in Harry's psyche and to us. In Chamber of Secrets, Dumbledore told Harry that some of Voldemorts powers were transferred to Harry. Perhaps Harry received some of Voldemort's darkness which will result in the Dark Lord's defeat.
What about Harry's father and his godfather, Sirius Black? Given the chance neither of them would have hesitated to kill Voldemort. I speculate that our hero has untapped fierocity which will enable him to get that Cruciatus curse up to par. Harry's favorite subject at Hogwart"s is Defense Against the Dark Arts. I, too, was disappointed in Harry's confrontation with Bellatrix resulting in Sirius Black's death. Then I thought, he's still young. He now has 3 deaths to avenge. Voldemort coming hard and fast every chance he gets. Harry better get it together. The older Harry gets the harder it will be for Voldemort to kill him. Of course, who knows Voldemor could fine a way to come back full force. Perhaps Dumbledore could take Harry under his wing and give him some advance training.
Our hero will have to darken his soul to defeat Voldemort?
Or how about this lame scenario?: Harry tries to kill Voldemort and some to Harry's personality gets transferred to Voldemort. That would really be lame!!!! (Smile)
Harry also needs more experience. When the time comes, he has to be calm and free of hot emotions. Then maybe he can pull a spectacular Cruciatus Curse or spell we don't know about yet.
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Madame Librarian - Jan 8, 2004 10:41 am (#258 of 383)
Flame (is it OK to call you by your first name alone?), believe it or not, but some of us have suggested the very thing you mention as a "lame scenario"--that is, Harry will overpower Voldie when he (Harry) somehow transfers the emotion of love back to him during a mind-sharing episode of legilimency/occlumency.
It will be like the Wicked Witch in Oz getting doused with all that water ("I'm m-e-e-e-elting!!!"). Voldie yells, "Oh, no, I'm in lo-o-o-v-e....!!!!" I am only half joking here.
Ciao. Barb
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timrew - Jan 8, 2004 12:44 pm (#259 of 383)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
And all the Death Eaters burst into a chorus of....
Hey, Ho, He's so in love,
The Dark, Dark Lord,
Our own Dark Lord!
Hey, Ho, The Dark, Dark Lord's in l-o-o-o-ve!!
And then they all hoist Harry on their shoulders, give him Voldemort's ruby slippers, and send him back to Kansas. Or am I getting two stories mixed up here.....?
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Julia. - Jan 8, 2004 1:11 pm (#260 of 383)
74% obsessed! Uconn Jew Crew says: is it August yet?
On my mother Tim! That was the funniest thing I've heard all week!
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OkieAngel - Jan 8, 2004 1:13 pm (#261 of 383)
Ah Tim, we can always count on you to add music to our lives here
As for the above theory being "lame", I don't think so at all. I have thought that love will be the thing that defeats Voldie, ultimately. Didn't we see in OP that he couldn't bear to stay in Harry's body once his thoughts and feelings turned towards Sirius?? However, it just may take the remainer of the series for our Boy Wonder to truly get a grip on his emotions and figure this out for himself, so that it is something that he can use as the ultimate weapon in the final battle, however JKR decides to play that out.
just my two knuts worth
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Dragonesss - Jan 8, 2004 2:55 pm (#262 of 383)
Edited by Jan 8, 2004 2:14 pm
"Lame scenario" deserves its own thread! How about "Love kills"?
`In a brief statement on Friday night, Minister for Magic Cornelius Fudge confirmed that He Who Must Not Be Named has died yesterday of the broken hart'
O, I'd love to see it happened! Or did it happen already? What if Harry's affection for Cho didn't just died out, but was transfered into Voldemort?
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Czarina - Jan 8, 2004 4:51 pm (#263 of 383)
Oh, puh-LEASE!
To get back on topic, I'd say that Harry's emotional state at the end of OoP is getting darker, even more so than at the beginning of the book. He will probably become even angrier in Book 6, to the point where he will be more than willing to administer the AK curse on Voldemort. I think the confrontation in Book 3 with Sirius was a very good case of foreshadowing. In that scene, our innocent young hero could not POSSIBLY kill anyone (the only thing he ever actually killed, I believe, was the Basilisk). In Book 4, he still can't kill Voldemort -- but he CAN overpower him. Logically, the last time these two meet in the series, Harry will be able to overpower the Dark Lord and be ABLE to kill him. He will be angry and hateful enough to do so.
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timrew - Jan 8, 2004 5:29 pm (#264 of 383)
Middle-aged Harry Potter fan
I can't see Harry ever being capable of killing anyone. Pettigrew betrayed his parents to Voldemort, and was responsible for their deaths; but Harry begged Sirius and Lupin to spare him.
I honestly don't think that the series will end with Voldemort's death at Harry's hand. It would go against the grain of all the previous books - yes, including book 6 that no-one has read yet.
Good must be seen to have triumphed over evil, and I don't for a moment think that JKR will use murder to achieve this goal.
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Slyangel - Jan 8, 2004 8:18 pm (#265 of 383)
Definitely not at Harry's hand. I would be shocked if that were the case. To me, that would make Harry no better than Voldemort, to strike him down in cold blood (and as a Slytherin alumnus it really hurts me to say that ;-). I don't even see it happening in self-defense. But to die by love, what a singular idea! This I could see. It would give the phrase "kill 'em with kindness" a new slant, eh?
My scenario: Bellatrix is killed (ooh, let's say V does it himself), Harry inadvertently (or maybe intentionally) transfers his feelings of Love to V, V realizes that he was in love with Bellatrix all along; Voldemort, overcome with grief and remorse, kills himself. The end.
Seriously, though, do you think it's possible that Tom Riddle ever loved someone? Bellatrix...?
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Flame Alligator - Jan 9, 2004 6:35 am (#266 of 383)
Everybody please, feel free to call me Flame. I'm starting to feel like part of the family Madame Librarian.
Am I the only one who thinks Harry should kill Voldemort? Although it's the wizard world, Voldemort is a serial killer. How about this? Somehow Voldemort is captured. Seems impossible but let's suppose. He is sent to Azkaban and the Death Eaters suck the joy out of him for eternity. In this scenario, our dear Harry doesn't have to kill him and Voldemort is punished for his evil deeds. Of course, he might escape. Sirius Black managed it quite cleverly.
Harry expressed a desire to become auror. Aren't they licensed to kill/execute on capturing? Why do you think he is attracted to that profession? Vanquishing evil may just be his calling. Voldemort may just be the beginning. Harry's personality darkens a little in each book although he still manages a relatively possitive outlook on life.
What about Neville? Where is he in regard to The Prophecy? I would love to hear any ideas?
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Joost! - Jan 9, 2004 6:54 am (#267 of 383)
Second line of information
I don't think Harry should kill Voldemort, but I think he will. Voldemort must be stopped no matter what. But if Harry would use Avada Kedavra on him after he's captured, Harry cannot be the good guy of the story anymore. To me he will have chosen the dark side. If Voldemort gets killed during battle and it's either him or someone else, then sure let him be killed. It all depends on the situation, I guess. I hope Harry won't use a simple Avada Kedavra to end it.
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mollis - Jan 9, 2004 7:27 am (#268 of 383)
My opinion is the opposite of Joost's, I think Harry should kill Voldy, but I don't think he will. Harry will not be able to AK (Avada Kedavra)Voldy, due to the priori incantatem (sp?) This series will not come down to a battle with wands, but more of an emotional battle of wills. It will be some freak occurrence that will somehow allow Harry to destroy Voldy by exposing him to love (or some sort). And I am starting to accept the idea that Voldemort (& his powers) will be destroyed leaving Tom Riddle behind, to do penance for his actions.
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Flame Alligator - Jan 9, 2004 7:30 am (#269 of 383)
Joost,
If Harry kills Voldemort, he may not be the "good guy" anymore but he will be The Hero and that is what counts. Ah yes, I, too, will lament somewhat that he will no longer be as sweet. He would become a formidable force that works for good and there is where he would be different not the same as Voldemort. Harry is not power mad as is Voldemort. Who knows maybe Neville will share this burden. I will still love Harry even if he turns "Killer of evildoers, defender of the good.
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Flame Alligator - Jan 9, 2004 7:35 am (#270 of 383)
mollis,
I like your scenario. Wasn't Tom Riddle evil before he became Voldemort. Isn't that why Dumbledore kept his eye on him?
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FCBarca - Jan 9, 2004 7:38 am (#271 of 383)
I wouldn't class Voldemort as a serial killer. Voldemort kills for a reason, serial killer's kill for fun. I know you could say that Voldemort kills for fun, but concerning the Prophecy, I can't see how anyone could say he was going to kill Harry for fun (I know no-one has said that, but I'm just mentioning it, just in case someone was thinking of it that way).
From Voldemort's point of view, he's trying to conquer the world, and he know's that there is someone who could stop him, he's not going to let them grow up, become powerful and try to stop him.
I personally wouldn't have tried to kill Harry when he was a baby. I would have let him grow up, have a stab at his destiny, and would kill him then, although I can certainly understand why Voldemort would try to kill him when he was a baby.
The Prophecy is what has shaped the current situation, and as the Prophecy knew what was going to happen, I'm sure the part about one of them will die at the hand of the other will be true as well. I can't see that Harry will kill Voldemort with love being true, as much as I understand the reasoning, and that there are no glitches in anyone's theory concerning Voldemorts defeat at the hand's of love, I think that what Harry will kill Voldemort with will be something we haven't seen yet, something that will be introduced in the next book.
A lot of people I think haven't taken into account that almost everything is in place to go straight to the last book. The Ministry now knows that Voldemort is back, and we now know that Harry is the only one who can kill Voldemort, so why is there two books remaining instead of one? I think that the next book will have a strong plot, concerning two things, unlike the last book, where the book was made up of little plots instead of one big plot like the previous four books before it. The only questions that haven't been answered are why Harry is the only one who can kill Voldemort, and why neither can live while the other survives, and I can't see the next book being based around those questions. I think we should look ahead and think, what will happen in the next book that will influence Harry in his fight against Voldemort (however he will fight him)? I think that something will be revealed in the next book concerning Harry and Voldemort, and I believe it to be that there is more to the Prophecy than Dumbledore showed us, something that will give Harry hope and confidence that he can kill Voldemort.
I believe the plot of the next book will be based around my theory of the DADA teacher who was once Voldemort's mentor (that's right, the theory that no-one likes ), and that he is now trying to kill Voldemort, and he starts killing his Death Eaters, and it becomes apparent to Dumbledore that they seem to have an unknown ally, and Harry is wondering who this person is.
I think though that the Prophecy will play an important part in the plot of the next book, and that more will be revealed about why Harry is the only one who can kill the greatest wizard of all time, Voldemort.
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Joost! - Jan 9, 2004 7:48 am (#272 of 383)
Second line of information
Mollis, it's funny, I think the same thing will happen, well, maybe Riddle won't be left behind, but basically that's what I think will happen. So let me rephrase: I think Voldemort will die and it will be Harry who makes it happen.
Flame, to me the "good guy" and the "hero" are the same person. Who is Harry to decide if Voldemort should live or die? He's just a kid, he shouldn't make a decision like that.
Edit: We crossed posts, Barca. I think you're absolutly right about book six (except maybe the DADA teacher theory ).
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mollis - Jan 9, 2004 7:55 am (#273 of 383)
Edited by Jan 9, 2004 6:57 am
Flame- I agree that Tom wasn't necessarily "good", but he wasn't evil at that point either. I think that while he remained Tom, he was redeemable, he could still be saved. That is where the idea comes from. Also, you can go back and edit your post for up to 30 minutes. Double posts are frowned upon.
FC- I don't know that I agree with you, but I am curious, what do you think DD didn't tell us about the prophecy? I do think that there is much more for us to learn in Book 6 to prepare us and Harry for the final battle. However, there is certainly no shortage of questions the forum-folk here would love to see answered. Probably enough to fill several more books!
EDIT: Joost- Hee, Hee! We crossed posts too! I'm glad you agree with me! I just don't think JKR will have the series end with murder, either way.
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Madame Librarian - Jan 9, 2004 9:29 am (#274 of 383)
Does anyone think that Trelawney will utter another prophecy that will add to or alter the one we're all concerned about here?
A large point was made about keeping her at Hogwarts--surely for her own safety so Voldie wouldn't be able to drag the whole prophecy out of her with torture and magic, but also because she's a bit of a loose cannon when pronouncements are concerned. She just up and goes into a trance, and...!voila!...you have a prophecy.
Also, let's keep in mind that problematic choice of word "vanquish." That can be interpreted lots of different ways besides "kill." In fact, I suspect JKR was quite particular in her phrasing here. Also, the "either must die at the hand of the other" business still doesn't equate to a situation involving murder. Tons of wiggle room here on the language of the prophecy.
Ciao. Barb
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Weeny Owl - Jan 9, 2004 9:43 am (#275 of 383)
Harry killing Voldie in the midst of battle isn't murder, but I don't see JKR having Harry Avada Kedavra Voldie. That's just not her style. She's leading up to something that won't be an ordinary wizard battle.
I find it interesting that the Prophecy never actually mentions Voldie, but says "the Dark Lord." That makes me think that the differences between Tom Riddle and Lord Voldemort are significant.
Harry could kill the part of this being that is the Dark Lord leaving what's left (the Tom Riddle part) to be dealt with separately.
I keep thinking of the doors into the Chamber of Secrets... two entwined snakes with emerald eyes. We still don't know what color Tom Riddle's eyes are except that they have a reddish look. I also think it's significant that Voldie possessed Harry for a bit in OotP. JKR might have Harry possess Voldie at the end, and vanquish him with the "power the Dark Lord knows not."
Tom Riddle may be evil, but until he left Hogwarts, he wasn't truly the Dark Lord yet. The Prophecy doesn't say Harry has to vanquish evil... only that he has the power to vanquish the Dark Lord.
Edit: I agree with you, Barb, about JKR's phraseology. She does leave quite a bit of wiggle room with "vanquish," "Dark Lord," and "either must die at the hand of the other."
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Flame Alligator - Jan 9, 2004 9:44 am (#276 of 383)
FC Barca. I like your theory about the unknown aly who is may also be the new DADA teacher.
Voldemort wants to conquer the world for power. We don't know enough about him except he is driven by inferiority (muggle parentage) from his perspective. He would kill all "mud bloods". Serial killers often have "reasons" for killing.
I agree that The Prophecy will stand true. Prophecies can be ambiguous but this time I think it will stand true unless JKR decides to manipulate the story to keep Harry's hands clean. I agree with the idea that we have not seen the curse, spell or whatever Harry will need to defeat Voldemort.
Joost,
If Harry is caught alone with Voldemort alone and the battle begins what would you have Harry do?
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FCBarca - Jan 9, 2004 9:47 am (#277 of 383)
Mollis, sorry, I forgot to mention it. Because Dumbledore said the reason why Voldemort wanted to hear the Prophecy was to find out how to destroy Harry. But the Prophecy never said anything about how Voldemort would destroy Harry, which makes me think there is more.
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mollis - Jan 9, 2004 12:12 pm (#278 of 383)
See, I think that Voldy wanted to hear the prophecy because he didn't completely trust the DE that overheard it. And he may have thought there was more, since the DE was caught before hearing the end of it. He wanted to get the prophesy to hear the ending of it, which he is completely unaware of. Which means, that since Harry has now heard it, he really need to master occlumency so that Voldy can't peak inside Harry's head the hear it all.
As for a third prediction, Madame Librarian, I have mixed feelings. Mostly I think, been there done that, but it could happen. But considering that in the past 16 years she's only made 2 predictions, I think its hoping for a lot to have another one so soon.
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mollis - Jan 9, 2004 12:53 pm (#279 of 383)
Okay, sorry for the double post, but time has expired to edit.
A note on the word vanquished. Not only is it ambiguous, leaving room to think Tom may survive when Voldy is destroyed, but it has been used before. OOTP, pg 835(Am ed.): "Voldemort had been vanquished" DD is telling Harry about the night his parents died, and explaining why he needed to live at the Dursley's. In that instance, Voldy was vanquished, but not completely destroyed. A piece of him survived, granted, the bad piece, but still, vanquished and not gone. Perhaps if he is vanquished in a different way, Tom (the good part - if there is one)will survive.
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FCBarca - Jan 9, 2004 1:04 pm (#280 of 383)
I forgot about that line, mollis. The only problem is that Dumbledore said that Harry is the only one who can destroy the Voldemort.
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siobhan - Jan 9, 2004 1:19 pm (#281 of 383)
A note on the 6th book. I read on another forum that the 6th book was to be about Harry's struggle to fulfil the Prophesy. Thinking he is ready he fights Voldemort but at the end of the book Voldemort gains the upper hand. It sounds promising as we still have two books to go and one sure plot(the fulfillment of the prophesy)
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mollis - Jan 9, 2004 1:34 pm (#282 of 383)
Edited by Jan 9, 2004 12:57 pm
FC - Where does DD say that? I just checked my book and didn't find it. Thanks!
added after FC's next post: Okay, so DD said Harry could "conquer" the Dark Lord, and the prophesy says "vanquish". I'm not sure where the problem comes in.
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FCBarca - Jan 9, 2004 1:43 pm (#283 of 383)
Sorry, I mis-phrased it. Dumbledore say's conquering. Chapter 'The Lost Prophecy', page 741 (British Edition), just after Harry has heard the Prophecy. "It...did that mean...what did that mean?",(Harry) "It meant (Dumbledore), that the person who has the only chance of conquering Lord Voldemort for good was born at the end of July, nearly sixteen years ago".
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Flame Alligator - Jan 10, 2004 4:45 am (#284 of 383)
Everyone is acting like Tom Riddle was a perfectly normal wizard before he "transforms" into Lord Voldemort. Wasn't he the one who set Hagrid up in CoS? Who murdered his parents?
I would love to see him imprisoned at Azkaban for eternity but his powers are phenonmenal. He, more than likely, would figure a way to escape. Unless, Dumbledore could invent some new magic, curse, spell, potion, whatever, to keep him imprisoned.
There is capital punishment in the wizard world. Weren't the dementors ordered to give Sirius a "kiss"?
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FCBarca - Jan 10, 2004 5:03 am (#285 of 383)
The Dementors wouldn't perform their kiss on Voldemort though, because they are Voldemort's 'natural allies.
Dumbledore said to Harry that whatever powers he uses, Voldemort would be able to break them, so maybe it is impossible for Dumbledore to keep Voldemort imprisoned.
When you say 'who killed his parents', do you mean Tom Riddle's parents? Because Tom killed his father, remember, and his mother died while giving birth to Tom.
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Emily - Jan 10, 2004 11:11 am (#286 of 383)
He killed his father and his grandparents on his father's side. This brings couple questions to mind. Would he have turned out differently if he had grown up with his mother? Does he still have grandparents on his mother's side?
Edit: just realized that because he was the last remaining descendant of Slytherin, so he could not have living grandparents.
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hopping hessian - Jan 10, 2004 11:28 am (#287 of 383)
"Extrodinary claims require extrordinary proof" -Bill Nye
Hi! This is my first post so...deep breath, here it goes.
I think many of the theories given on the prophecy here are very interesting. What I have to add concerns the question about Neville.
I am in the camp that doesn't believe that Neville will have much of a part to play in the downfall of Lord Thingy. Voldemort "marked" Harry as his equal and I sincerely hope that JKR did not give Harry's scare as a red-herring and Neville will be the one to finally defeat Voldemort as the series is about Harry. Neville was emotionally marked by the torture of his parents, but Voldemort was not responsible for that, his followers were. Neville will grow in importance, perhaps help Harry at the end, but it must be Harry who defeats the Dark Lord.
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Pinky - Jan 10, 2004 2:27 pm (#288 of 383)
La la narf!
Welcome hoppin hessien! Thanks for your first post ever! It's a big thing to get that first post out, but I'm sure you'll get quite good at posting. If you haven't seen it yet, be sure to check out the Neville thread. The question of how much a part Neville will play has popped up on a number of threads. You'll find people in both camps here. The problem with the prophecy is that JKR worded it ambigiously, so there are a number of ways to interpret it. I personally think that Neville will play some part in Voldemort's downfall, although I think Harry will do the major part of the action.
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C.A. Thom - Jan 10, 2004 3:46 pm (#289 of 383)
Hello, everyone, (my first post here!) I've just read through all the posts and I find all the theories incredibly intelligent and thought out. FC Barca - I, too, believe that it seems as if we should go right to book 7. Literally, in a modern myth, the hero usually must solve the problem without dependency on others. Of course, there may be others who try to help, but the hero is not dependent on anyone for support. JK has neatly eliminated Harry's last dependence by taking out Sirius. Now, Harry is ready to move on. Explaining the prophesy in book 5 is a clever way of setting him up for the final showdown. And I agree with you that something will most likely happen to warrant a book 6. In fact, there are still too many unanswered questions that need to be resolved, and to answer all of them in one book would be like Snoopy of the Peanuts cartoon tying up all the loose ends in the last chapter! For instance: 1. What about Wormtail? He is still indebted to Harry, and LV constantly dismisses him as worthless. Wormtail is very clearly disgusted with his life with LV (although he does seem enthralled with his new hand!) And as Marauder5 clearly pointed out, LV always manages to underestimate the power of others and overestimate his own self-worth. I think we will see some connection between Wormtail and Harry that will eventually help Harry vanquish the Dark Lord, and fulfill the prophecy. 2. What were the “3 times” with which the parents thwarted LV? It was mentioned in the prophecy. Why, if not of some importance? Was one of those times having a child that would vanquish the dark Lord? 3. What about Percy Weasley and his big mistake? (maybe not a big issue, but an issue nonetheless) 4. What about the Dursley's? Will there be more than meets the eye between Petunia and Dumbledore? Etc., etc., etc. (another thread - unanswered questions?) Also, the concept of more to the prophecy makes sense. (can't remember who brought it up - sorry!) Is there some information on how the confrontation might happen, or what Harry must specifically do to succeed? Just my thoughts, Thanks! CAT
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veraco - Jan 29, 2004 4:24 am (#290 of 383)
Hi! I was just reading your theories and I wanted to said that, to me, there are more ways of loosing a part of you than with the death of someone you loved and maybe we are not taking that in count here. There is, for example, loosing your innocence, as Harry has in OoP and with it a part of him that saw the world in a different way.
I think that Harry will die somehow at the end, maybe not physically but a part of him, an important one will be lost.
As for the dais and the voices in the room of death, Harry and Luna weren't the only ones attracted to it, Ginny and Neville where also, maybe because Neville lost his parents and Ginny lost a part of her in CoS?.
As for Neville, I don't know how big his part is going to be, but I'm sure he will improve much more than he did in OoP, specially since he will have a wand made for him and not for his dad, maybe this turns out to be more important that we think?.
(sorry if I made a mistake... my English is getting worse every day)
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dasmitts - Feb 19, 2004 9:45 pm (#291 of 383)
About the prophesy...
Here is a silly little theory my wife came up with, that sorta intrigued me.
Only making reference to the Bible not preaching here, ok?
Do yall remember John the Baptist? He came before (In the interest of keeping this non-religeous all call him "You-know-who. Not trying to be funny) you-know-who? John was sorta a foreshadowing of him..
Well, maybe Harry Potter is the John the Baptist of this story. A foreshadowing of the real "Chosen One" to come...Who?
Neville Longbottom.....Think about it.
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DayWalker - Feb 20, 2004 10:26 pm (#292 of 383)
While that is an interesting concept, I don't think it really flies because if Neville was You- know -who then the book (like the Bible) would be about him and not Harry.
I do think it is an interesting theory though.
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A-is-for-Amy - Feb 20, 2004 11:22 pm (#293 of 383)
Mom of 2 boys
If Harry is John the Baptist, then lets hope that Hermione doesn't end up as Salome!
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dasmitts - Feb 21, 2004 9:27 pm (#294 of 383)
DayWalker...........The point of the theory is that the book is about the John the Baptist charater, or Harry Potter....see? And Neville comes into play at the end...
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Dharma Spring - Feb 24, 2004 6:29 pm (#295 of 383)
dasmitts,
I like idea. I do not feel at all bound to believe that Harry has to be the one to kill/rid-the-world of Voldemort. I'm of the opinion that Harry will be the one to bring about the circumstance that make Voldemort's elimination possible. So why not compare this story to one that is biblical, given JK's stated religious position, and her literary choices up to now? What elements of the plot led your wife to this comparison?
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Luanee - Feb 25, 2004 1:02 am (#296 of 383)
When Dumbledore wrote "Dark Lord and (?)Harry Potter" on the prophecy, he wasn't sure whether Harry was the person the prophecy referred to hence the question mark (?) right? What happened if he wrote "Dark Lord and (?)Neville Longbottom" ? Would Neville be able to remove the prophecy from the shelf without going mad then?
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alexa - Feb 25, 2004 1:26 am (#297 of 383)
Luanee, I don't think Dumbledore 'wrote' on the Prophecy. I think he needed to ask the keeper of the Prophecy Hall to write on it.
See quotes from OoP: "Voldemort tried to kill you when you were a child because of a prophecy made shortly before your birth."
"The official record was re-labelled after Voldemort's attack on you as a child,' said Dumbledore. 'It seemed plain to the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy that Voldemort could only have tried to kill you because he knew you to be the one to whom Sybill was referring."
My question is, "Why did Dumbledore bother to keep a record of the Prophecy in the DOM?" His memory from the pensive alone is enough to let him recall what Sybill said. Why made something that was dangerous? It is all because of this Prophecy that Sirius died.
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Neville Longbottom - Feb 25, 2004 3:18 am (#298 of 383)
When Dumbledore wrote "Dark Lord and (?)Harry Potter" on the prophecy, he wasn't sure whether Harry was the person the prophecy referred to hence the question mark (?) right?
I think it was different. When the prophecy was labelled, it read: "The Dark Lord and (?)", then, after the attack of the Potters, it was relabelled to "The Dark Lord and (?) Harry Potter". Meaning that Harry's name was included behind the question mark.
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Madame Librarian - Feb 25, 2004 2:40 pm (#299 of 383)
I wonder if we will meet or hear more about the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy. Do you think he has to create another orb to replace the one smashed? When was the original made, and how? Is he the one who creates them? Is there a way to not have an orb created when a prophecy is made?
When Dumbledore says, "The official record was relabeled after Voldemort's attack on you as a child," said Dumbledore. "It seemed plain to the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy that Voldemort could only have tried to kill you because he knew you to be the one to whom Sibyll was referring" (OoP, ch. 37, pg. 842, US.)
Doesn't this imply that he knows the contents of the Prophecy? Is he now a target for the DEs? He could be tortured to tell what the Prophecy said, unless, of course, there is some crucial piece of information about this guy (or gal!) we don't have. Maybe he has sworn a magical oath of secrecy with regard to all the prophecies that offers him protection from that sort of thing (kind of like professional confidentiality between patient and doctor). If not, then don't we have a very large chink in the armor that keeps Voldie and the DEs from finding out the whole prophecy? What does everyone think?
Ciao. Barb
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Czarina - Feb 25, 2004 3:32 pm (#300 of 383)
It's probably a doctor-patient-like thing between the Keeper and the Prophecies. Maybe the keeper is mute? (magically or physically) Or perhaps the keeper is not a wizard at all, but some sort of non-human entity that thus has no eyes and Voldemort's skills as a Legilimens are useless? Finally, perhaps the Keeper of the Hall of Prophecies is blind AND mute. There would be little way for Voldemort to access the information.
Maybe Dumbledore just told the keeper bits of the Prophecy and the keeper made an educated guess about Harry Potter.
I think Voldemort will try another, more direct way of gaining knowledge of the Prophecy. If he is scared of Dumbledore, he will go after Trelawney, Harry or change his tactics altogether. In Book 6, he might just send Wormtail out for info.
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The Prophecy (Post 301 to 350)
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I Am Used Vlad - Feb 25, 2004 9:40 pm (#301 of 383)
I Am Almighty!
You bring up a good point about the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy being a possible weak link, Madame L. But remember, the prophecy is in row 97 of a room described as "high as a church and full of nothing but towering shelves covered in small, dusty, glass orbs." OotP, p.777 US
Unless the keeper has a memory that would put Ollivander to shame, he wouldn't remember each prophecy in detail.
Of course, one could argue that the prophecy about Harry and Voldemort is more important than most, so the keeper may remember it. We'll just have to wait and see if this comes into play in the final two books.
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Thom Matheson - Feb 26, 2004 12:02 pm (#302 of 383)
As the hall is in the Dept. of Mysteries, and all the workers there are "unmentionable". Didn't Bode work in the Dept. of Mysteries? Also one of the DE worked there and told Voldemort that they couldn't just grab the orb. That it had to be either Harry or Voldy.
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virgoddess1313 - Feb 26, 2004 2:19 pm (#303 of 383)
I believe their title was "unspeakable"... calling them "unmentionables", to me, invokes the thought of undies!!
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Thom Matheson - Feb 26, 2004 7:18 pm (#304 of 383)
I could kill me for that. Thanks. Unmentionables!!! What an idiot. I'm still laughing at myself. Thanks V
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virgoddess1313 - Feb 26, 2004 8:30 pm (#305 of 383)
No problem... a mistake anyone could make.
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Thom Matheson - Feb 26, 2004 8:36 pm (#306 of 383)
Like there is a dept of undies. I was at work. I can't even give you a logical reason. The bad part is I knew what I wanted to say, and not only did I think it wrong but I typed it too? That is scary.
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Mrs. Sirius - Feb 28, 2004 11:15 pm (#307 of 383)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Would Neville be able to remove the prophecy from the shelf without going mad then?
I think that Neville also has some "right" to touch that prophecy. When Harry and Neville were the last of the DA left fighting, Harry tossed the prophecy to Neville. Nothing happened to him. Neville was able to handle the prophecy without consequence because when the prophecy was originally made, it could well have applied to him.
The physical (orb) prophecy, I think has some "memory" of the fact that when it was first made and recorded, "it" did not know if Harry or Neville would be the person to whom it referred.
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virgoddess1313 - Feb 29, 2004 4:02 pm (#308 of 383)
I think once removed, anyone could touch the prophecy. It sounded like, to me, that the person it was about had to remove it fromt he shelf, but after that, it didn't matter. Lucius Malfoy was going to take it from Harry and give it to Voldemort, so I'd assume that he would have been ok.
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alexa - Feb 29, 2004 8:57 pm (#309 of 383)
I agreed with virgoddess. But I still don't understand what is the point of keeping a Prophecy record in the DOM. Dumbledore's memory in the Pensieve is enough. Any thoughts?
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Madame Librarian - Feb 29, 2004 9:02 pm (#310 of 383)
I suppose people who remember a prophecy --like DD remembering this one-- might die or be unavailable for telling the contents (far away, memory charm, ill, whatever). The orb becomes the official record and presumably cannot be tampered with. I wonder if the orb that was smashed will be replaced. Actually the whole lot of them were smashed, weren't they? Wonder what gives with all those prophecies now that have no official records? Do they still hold? I'd like to know more about this keeper, too.
Ciao. Barb
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Mare - Mar 2, 2004 2:42 am (#311 of 383)
I'm not so sure wether Dumbledore created the memory in the orb. Maybe the prophecies get into the hall of the prophecies in a more mysterious manner. And it doesn't matter wether some-one hears it or not, if a prophecy is made, an orb comes into being.
some of the orbs aren't glowing anymore, it was already suggested that those are the prophecies that are fullfilled. What is it that makes them stop shining? surely not the keeper of the hall, how would he be able to know wether every single prophecy was fullfilled or not?
what if the dimming of the glow just happens when the prophecy is done. What if, in some way, the orb is in "contact" with the prophecy?
Than do the smashing of the orbs would have any significance? Mme Librarian wondered wether the smashed orbs are going to be replaced. I am wondering wether they can be replaced.
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Devika - Mar 2, 2004 3:56 am (#312 of 383)
Just a small minor teeny-weeny little point, which I'm sure won't have any bearing on future books - but now that the ministry record of the prophecy is destroyed, and it only remains in DD's memory, will the Ministry try to create a new record? I mean DD is bound to die sooner or later. If the Ministry has a whole department (or sub-department!) devoted to records of such prophecies, then this stuff must surely be important. Does the ministry now need to get it again from DD?
Plus, apart from the keeper of prephecies, do all unspeakables know about such prophecies? or is it really classified information? If unspeakables do know about the content of prophecies, then I'm sure many of them would have such an important prophecy preserved in their memories. Voldy could just have gotten it out of them. But if they don't know about the content of the prophecies, then what is it that they are so secretive about? the room of love??? I don't understand. Inspite of spending some 3-4 chapters in there, I still can't understand this Department of Ministries, and I really hope we are taken there again!
Edit: Ooops.. I think I just missed reading a few posts in my hurry. This point has been raised before! and just one post before! I think I'll go now and iron my hands and be back!
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Mare - Mar 2, 2004 4:08 am (#313 of 383)
Hey Devika, I was here reading your post before you edited it, and I was already wondering why you would bring up the same point as in the previous posts. I guess we all wonder about the same thing.
About the second part of your post. I don't think all unspeakables know about the prophecies. I think an unspeakable only knows about the things I the chamber he deals with. Are we even sure the keeper of the prophecies is an unspeakable? Maybe he isn't even human?
Are we absolutely sure the keeper knows the prophecies literally? Because you are right in that it is interesting that he seems to exist, but no DE goes after him. And if he is the keeper, where was he during the fight? At home sleeping? Poor man/woman/whatever, what a disaster it would be for him to come to work the next day.
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Madame Librarian - Mar 2, 2004 9:00 am (#314 of 383)
Does anyone think that the broken orb might mean that the prophecy will not hold? DD would know that, wouldn't he?
The reason I bring this up is because a number of times on various threads we have discussed the seeming contradiction in JKR's big theme of "choices" and a plot that hinges on the fulfillment of a prophecy. How can it be both? Are you fated to go on a particular path, or can your choices overrule that? Given that so much of our cultural and literary heritage deals with the exact question (even Biblical--what is free will?), I wonder if this is a set up by JKR to resolve the enigma, at least as far as the HP series is concerned.
Ciao. Barb
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Devika - Mar 2, 2004 9:48 am (#315 of 383)
I'm not sure Barb. I thought the orbs in the Ministry were only records. Records are getting lost all the time. This doesn't mean the thing also vanishes. Plus, a prophecy sounds like something definite, not something that will change. Otherwise seers wouldn't be so big. So, I guess destruction of the orb will have no bearing on the prophecy's fulfilment.
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I Am Used Vlad - Mar 2, 2004 12:14 pm (#316 of 383)
I Am Almighty!
I don't think the existence of the prophesy contradicts the theme of choices. If the prophesy said "Harry Potter will kill Voldemort," then it would. But the prophesy has two possible outcomes; Harry killing Voldemort or Voldemort killing Harry. The choices made by Harry and his supporters, and, for that matter, Voldemort, will have a major effect on which outcome comes to pass.
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FCBarca - Mar 2, 2004 1:24 pm (#317 of 383)
Nimrod 2000, I think that JKR made the Prophecy have two outcomes so the remaining books won't be boring. I don't think it realistically should have had two outcomes. But if she said which one will die, then it would be boring. We know Voldemort will 'go', but whether Harry will go with him is debatable.
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Czarina - Mar 2, 2004 2:07 pm (#318 of 383)
That would depend on Harry's choices, though. Yes, WE know Voldemort must be defeated because WE're reading the story. Harry will make the choices in the story to fit with Rowling's plotline, which probably includes defeating Voldemort, but from the characters' perspective, he has to MAKE the choices.
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FCBarca - Mar 2, 2004 2:15 pm (#319 of 383)
Czarina, I don't see what that has to do with the prophecy? I don't see how Harry's choices will alter the prophecy? JKR said 'one will die at the hand of the other', because it would be stupid to say who is going to die. What I was saying had nothing to do with choices, I was saying how JKR had to be unrealistic concerning the prophecy.
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Madame Librarian - Mar 2, 2004 3:20 pm (#320 of 383)
nimrod, I read that prophecy as offering two either/or outcomes, not choices. Could Harry just drop everything and choose not to fight or confront Voldie? Or, even if there's a kind of choice implied, it by no means makes me think of the kind of options open to a young wizard on the brink of adulthood who doesn't have a prophecy written about him. The very idea that a prophecy even exists weakens the arguement that Harry has a choice. That's why I'm suspicious about the real reason JKR has presented us with this dilemma.
Remember when Glinda tells Dorothy that she's always had the ability to go home when she wanted to, she just had to click her heels three times and say, "There's no place like home."? It was as if she was saying, you just have to choose to do something and it can be done, you don't need a wizard's help at all. Well, there's a little part of me that thinks something like that is going to happen with this prophecy/choice business. It won't necessarily be quite so light-hearted, but it will strike Harry (and others) as obvious once it's out in the open.
Ciao. Barb
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Tomoé - Mar 11, 2004 12:03 am (#321 of 383)
Back in business
The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ...
born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seven month dies ...
and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ...
and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ...
the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seven month dies ...
What if everything that have been stated in this prophecy was already over? What if baby-Harry vanquish the Dark Lord by killing his body with power that Voldemort know not? What if we have no clue yet about how the final battle will occure?
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Prefect Marcus - Mar 11, 2004 9:48 am (#322 of 383)
"Anyone can cook"
Bravo. *Clap-Clap-Clap* Well done, Tomoé!
There is that little pesky phrase, "...either must die...", that I think precludes that possibility, but the thought is certainly worth thinking about. :-D
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FCBarca - Mar 11, 2004 9:56 am (#323 of 383)
Very good, Tomoé. The only problem being that Voldemort is still around, and that Harry hasn't 'vanquised' him, and only his body went.
But that is an interesting theory, Tomoé.
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Tomoé - Mar 11, 2004 12:54 pm (#324 of 383)
Back in business
Marcus, Voldemort's body did die, he had a brand new one in GoF, even if it looks like the last one, he didn't restore the ancien one.
FCBarka, the prophecy didn't say vanquish for good or forever, we can assume Voldemort was vanquished for 12 years.
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FCBarca - Mar 12, 2004 2:40 pm (#325 of 383)
No, you're right, Tomoé, the Prophecy didn't, Dumbledore did. I suppose Dumbledore could have misunderstood it. I would think it meant for good, but it didn't say it, so there is an equal chance that it didn't mean for good.
There is a good chance you could be right, Tomoé. And due to my style, I usually have a different opinion. So, you're theory must be good, if I'm not giving an opinion of my own on it.
(There are lots of good theories on the Forum. I am just saying that I usually have a different opinion, that's all, not that there aren't many good theories on the Forum, because there are. )
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Gina R Snape - Mar 14, 2004 9:38 pm (#326 of 383)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
I was reading the "Harry Wasn't Special When..." thread and found myself pleased at how many of us knew there must've been a prophesy.
After catching up on this thread, I have a few small thoughts.
First, I don't see the DL as a serial killer. I see him as a terrorist. He is power hungry and killing is one option in his repertoire. It is not the thing in itself for him, and in fact there are times when it seems that the DL would have chosen not to kill (e.g. he had 'no choice' with Bertha Jorkins and told Lily she 'need not' have to die).
Secondly, the cynical part of me agrees that JKR wrote the prophesy the way she did in order to stay sufficiently vague for the next two books. But her phraseology is very particular. So, I do suspect the end will be something other than a quick AK. I've said before I think Harry will win through love, or through the redemption of the DL. Twice now, Harry has beat the DL through love---in PS/SS and in OoP. Love as protection is a theme running through the books. So it makes sense he could choose to make some kind of loving action which renders the DL 'vanquished.' But I wouldnt discount Harry's wizarding skills, as JKR has made a point of reminding people how good Harry has become in dark arts defence.
As for Neville, I think his was an unhappy coincidence of birth. He'll come into his own, but I don't think he has any other direct part in the prophesy.
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Luanee - Mar 15, 2004 5:20 pm (#327 of 383)
I was thinking why was the prophecy said using the words "The Dark Lord" instead of Voldemort's name? Surely Trelawny, in her 'seeing' state, won't be afraid to call out the name? I know it is not very likely, but is there any possibility of it referring to someone else?
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Denise P. - Mar 17, 2004 10:23 pm (#328 of 383)
Ravenclaw Pony
I am reposting this from a duplicate thread...Denise
Sharker11 - Mar 17, 2004 9:03 pm
Sibyll Trelawney made her second correct prophecy following Harry's final exam in June of 199(?).
"THE DARK LORD LIES ALONE AND FRIENDLESS, ABANDONED BY HIS FOLLOWERS. HIS SERVANT HAS BEEN CHAINED THESE TWELVE YEARS. TONIGHT, BEFORE MIDNIGHT... THE SERVANT WILL BREAK FREE AND SET OUT TO REJOIN HIS MASTER. THE DARK LORD WILL RISE AGAIN WITH HIS SERVANTS AID, GREATER AND MORE TERRIBLE THAN EVER HE WAS. TONIGHT... BEFORE MIDNIGHT... THE SERVANT... WILL SET OU... TO REJOIN... HIS MASTER...." (Pg 270, PoA)
Most of this Prophecy has come true, Big V has been reborn. Parts of this prophecy have not. Big V has yet to be "greater and more terrible than ever he was." The following issues have been raised about this prophecy...
1) I believe that in order for Big V to be worse then before, either Albus dies, the Ministry falls, or Hogwarts will be attacked. Either way, do to the fact that the OotP ends with Big V in a worse po
2) Peter was hardly chained to the Weasley's. Is it possible that Peter is not being referred to in this prophecy.
3) Albus seems hardly concerned about hearing this when Harry tells him in Remus's office. Why?
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Madame Librarian - Mar 17, 2004 10:28 pm (#329 of 383)
This "before midnight" phrase...maybe we should take a close look at the time frames for the events at the Shrieking Shack. I guess "before midnight" is a loose enough time reference, however. Also, who else in the story could be considered to be "chained?"
Ciao. Barb
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S.E. Jones - Mar 17, 2004 10:31 pm (#330 of 383)
Let it snow!
I think the "greater and more terrible than ever he was" has to do with the fact that he used Harry's blood in his rebirthing ceremony. In GoF, Voldemort says, "But the blood of a foe...... Any wizard who hated me...as so many of them still do. But I knew the one I must use, if I was to rise again,more powerful than I had been when I had fallen. I wanted Harry Potter's blood. I wanted the blood of the one who had stripped me of my power thirteen years ago...". It seems that the more powerful the enemy (and who is more his enemy than the person who "vanquished" him 13 years before), the more powerful the spell, and thus the more powerful he is when he returns....
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alexa - Mar 18, 2004 1:19 am (#331 of 383)
When did Harry inform Dumbledore about the prophecy? After Harry and Hermione helped Sirius escaped? Sorry I don't have the book with me. If Harry only informed Dumbledore after Petter escaped, then it made sense that Dumbledore is only taking this information mildly. (or calmly) If Dumbledore heard this Prophecy before Petter escaped, he might have show more reactions or perhaps offer some advise to Harry. I mean, no use crying over spilt milk right?
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Mare - Mar 18, 2004 1:50 am (#332 of 383)
Also, who else in the story could be considered to be "chained?"
Well Crouch Jr, but the timeframe isn't correct. I always read "chained" as in trapped in that ratform. He did it voluntarily, but due to the fact that everybody thought him dead he couldn't change back and live a normal live.
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FCBarca - Mar 18, 2004 3:57 am (#333 of 383)
"Peter was hardly chained to the Weasley's. Is it possible that Peter is not being referred to in this prophecy."
It meant he was chained as a rat. I know that doesn't really say much, but I'm sure that is what it meant, as he could have just run away from the Weasley's.
Of course the prophecy was talking about Peter, we saw him leave, and we saw, at the start of GOF and at the end, that it was indeed Peter who helped Voldemort back to his body.
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Neville Longbottom - Mar 18, 2004 4:45 am (#334 of 383)
1) I believe that in order for Big V to be worse then before, either Albus dies, the Ministry falls, or Hogwarts will be attacked.
I believe that all of the above will happen. Let's say book 6 will end with both, the fall of the ministry and Dumbledore's death. That would be truly dark. And then in book 7, with Dumbledore out of the way, the big V could attack Hogwarts for the finale battle.
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Emily - Mar 18, 2004 4:59 pm (#335 of 383)
Also, Peter was chained to Lupin and Ron as they left the Shreiking Shack. He did literally break out of that.
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urzafyffe - Mar 22, 2004 6:09 pm (#336 of 383)
I dont remember if this has been discussed on this thread or not but I was wondering if this is a hint from JKR about her full theme with the books is inside the first Prophecy.
...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives... US pg. 841
Could this by chance mean more then just kill the man but kill the dream? The reason I ask that is after reading Madam Poppy post: Madam Poppy "Was anyone else disappointed with Book 5?" 3/6/04 6:31am I thought that there could be more to what the prophecy meant then just Harry and DL.
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Hogs Head - Mar 24, 2004 9:46 pm (#337 of 383)
Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
I think there is more to the (1st) prophecy but sadly it does for now seem hopelessly ambiguous to the loyal reader. And what can "neither can live while the other survives" mean? So far they are both alive (again, in Voldemort's case) and both are, in their own fashion, surviving. So, there's something else at work here. Maybe there is a lacuna in the prophetic fabric or a small part missing or still withheld.
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Tomoé - Mar 25, 2004 7:29 am (#338 of 383)
Back in business
Maybe Harry is a zombie. ^_^
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Madame Librarian - Mar 25, 2004 9:41 pm (#339 of 383)
On another thread (I just read it and already forgot which one, sheesh!) someone proposed that we don't have the complete prophecy, that DD was holding some parts back. The elipses might represent missing phrases.
Though I find it hard to believe JKR would repeat the DD not telling all business, and even though I do think the man is still holding some things back, I find it a stretch to think that he's actually hiding parts of the prophecy. However, I could be convinced otherwise if anyone has a solid arguement on this.
These prophecies are tricky things. Even the punctuation is tricky.
Ciao. Barb
EDIT--Apologies to Vballman. I found the thread I mentioned above. It's on the "Problems in the 5th book" thread, post #434.
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FCBarca - Mar 26, 2004 9:27 am (#340 of 383)
Madame Librarian, if Dumbledore isn't hiding more of the prophecy, how come Dumbledore said to Harry that Voldemort wanted it to find out how to destroy him, and not say to Harry that Voldemort is wrong, as the prophecy doesn't contain that information?
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S.E. Jones - Mar 26, 2004 9:40 am (#341 of 383)
Let it snow!
I don't think the fact that the Prophecy doesn't clearly hold the information on how to kill Harry is a good argument for Dumbledore leaving something out. Here are my reasons:
1) Dumbledore may have wanted to keep Voldemort guessing. If he's focusing on the Prophecy then he's not working at full force; if he's worried about what happens if he attacks Harry again (he may be remembering the Priori Incantatem and, not knowning they have brother wands, doesn't know why it happended and thus thinks it has something to do with the Prophecy) then he won't be going directly after Harry anytime soon.
2) Voldemort has a great deal of magic knowledge (Dumbledore has admitted as much) and so he may be able to read something into the prophecy, interpret something from it, about how to kill Harry that Harry, and thus us, can't .
As for the punctuation, you see the same punctuation (the "...") in Trewlany's second Prophecy. I think it's just there to show pauses, to show she's kind of out of it....
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Prefect Marcus - Mar 26, 2004 10:23 am (#342 of 383)
"Anyone can cook"
Also, the prophecy DOES say how to destroy Harry. Voldemort has to do it himself. None of this surrogate stuff. Don't waste time, effort, and resources on it. He has to do the dirty deed himself.
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FCBarca - Mar 26, 2004 3:37 pm (#343 of 383)
Prefect Marcus, that doesn't really say how, though, does it? That says that Voldemort does have to kill Harry, not how to kill Harry.
S.E. Jones, I believe it is a good argument, just maybe not a correct one.
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Czarina - Mar 26, 2004 5:43 pm (#344 of 383)
Maybe the ellipses DO represent missing words in both Prophecies. However, HARRY heard the entire Prophecy. JKR didn't write it all down in the book for us to READ, though. We are to learn what was contained in the Prophecy later.
Actually, I don't really believe that. It's just a faint possibility. Personally, I think JKR knows what her cryptic Prophecies mean, just like Dumbledore. We readers are stumped at the meaning because we did not write them. We did not plan them out. I can see patterns in my stories that I write that no one else does. Why? I wrote them.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 29, 2004 9:53 am (#345 of 383)
Let it snow!
Precisely, Czarina. And Harry (and therefore us) heard the second prophecy firsthand, with the "..." where they were just as they are in the first prophecy. If something was left out, then Trewlany left it out, not Dumbledore. I still hold that they are just there to show she is rambling in her trance....
FCBarca, are you referring to my personal reasons for believing so or the punctuation?
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Gina R Snape - Mar 29, 2004 6:23 pm (#346 of 383)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Hey, have you guys heard this theory?
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Personally, I think it's rubbish. But it's worth reading over.
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Madame Librarian - Mar 29, 2004 7:07 pm (#347 of 383)
I'm not convinced of the bulk of it, Gina R Snape, but I do like the bit about a piece of Voldie's mind being forced into Harry's mind being the cause of the scar. And, I am intrigued now by all the "little voice" quotes. Is that just JKR's style of how an inner dialogue should be written, or are they clues to something really important about Harry's mind?
Ciao. Barb
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Madame Librarian - Mar 29, 2004 7:47 pm (#348 of 383)
I tried to add this as an edit to my post above, but it took me so long to think it out and type it that the clock ran out. Anyway...
The particular phrasing and pacing of the prophecy has bugged me a long time. Wouldn't a nice straightforward version read something like this, starting from the tricky part--
...and one must die at the hand of the other for only one can live...
Why didn't JKR take a more direct route with the language? The rhythmic repitition of "either - neither?" To purposely confound us? To leave some wiggle room in interpretation?
And, I just noticed an odd thing. I always thought that the prophecy just started over again at the end, kind of like a looped recording of an "Attention, K-Mart Shoppers" message, but it doesn't! The opening line (OoP, chapter 37, pg. 841, US) reads--
"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...."
The final line, the one I thought was the beginning again, says--
"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...."
So now I wonder if this continued would it reveal more stuff, or have a different phrasing since it doesn't appear to just repeat the same lines. Am I making sense? I've managed to tangle myself up in my own language.
Ciao. Barb
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Hogs Head - Mar 29, 2004 7:52 pm (#349 of 383)
Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Now someone said that Harry heard the whole prophesy. Do we know that for a fact? I know that he heard a replay of Dumbledore's memories from the pensieve, but (a) did Dumbledore put all of his memories in the pensieve to begin with and (b) does the party placing memories in the pensieve have the ability to "edit" or remove segments of a single memory? I don't think we know any of that for certain, do we?
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DJ Evans - Mar 29, 2004 7:56 pm (#350 of 383)
Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
Man, you have to give that guy credit--he sure put a LOT of thought into his theory there, didn't he? But I'm with you Gina R Snape on this one mostly. There was one or two things that I can see having some merit to it, like LV won't ever be a whole person really till Harry is killed & I just don't think that will come to pass. And if Harry "did" accquire some of LV's mind, then it must be the part of LV's brain that had the smart's in it. Cause as far as I'm concern, LV isn't the smartest wizard around. He has messed up so many times and has let situations just slip by him where he could have gotten to Harry once and for all.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I Am Almighty!
You bring up a good point about the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy being a possible weak link, Madame L. But remember, the prophecy is in row 97 of a room described as "high as a church and full of nothing but towering shelves covered in small, dusty, glass orbs." OotP, p.777 US
Unless the keeper has a memory that would put Ollivander to shame, he wouldn't remember each prophecy in detail.
Of course, one could argue that the prophecy about Harry and Voldemort is more important than most, so the keeper may remember it. We'll just have to wait and see if this comes into play in the final two books.
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Thom Matheson - Feb 26, 2004 12:02 pm (#302 of 383)
As the hall is in the Dept. of Mysteries, and all the workers there are "unmentionable". Didn't Bode work in the Dept. of Mysteries? Also one of the DE worked there and told Voldemort that they couldn't just grab the orb. That it had to be either Harry or Voldy.
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virgoddess1313 - Feb 26, 2004 2:19 pm (#303 of 383)
I believe their title was "unspeakable"... calling them "unmentionables", to me, invokes the thought of undies!!
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Thom Matheson - Feb 26, 2004 7:18 pm (#304 of 383)
I could kill me for that. Thanks. Unmentionables!!! What an idiot. I'm still laughing at myself. Thanks V
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virgoddess1313 - Feb 26, 2004 8:30 pm (#305 of 383)
No problem... a mistake anyone could make.
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Thom Matheson - Feb 26, 2004 8:36 pm (#306 of 383)
Like there is a dept of undies. I was at work. I can't even give you a logical reason. The bad part is I knew what I wanted to say, and not only did I think it wrong but I typed it too? That is scary.
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Mrs. Sirius - Feb 28, 2004 11:15 pm (#307 of 383)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Would Neville be able to remove the prophecy from the shelf without going mad then?
I think that Neville also has some "right" to touch that prophecy. When Harry and Neville were the last of the DA left fighting, Harry tossed the prophecy to Neville. Nothing happened to him. Neville was able to handle the prophecy without consequence because when the prophecy was originally made, it could well have applied to him.
The physical (orb) prophecy, I think has some "memory" of the fact that when it was first made and recorded, "it" did not know if Harry or Neville would be the person to whom it referred.
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virgoddess1313 - Feb 29, 2004 4:02 pm (#308 of 383)
I think once removed, anyone could touch the prophecy. It sounded like, to me, that the person it was about had to remove it fromt he shelf, but after that, it didn't matter. Lucius Malfoy was going to take it from Harry and give it to Voldemort, so I'd assume that he would have been ok.
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alexa - Feb 29, 2004 8:57 pm (#309 of 383)
I agreed with virgoddess. But I still don't understand what is the point of keeping a Prophecy record in the DOM. Dumbledore's memory in the Pensieve is enough. Any thoughts?
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Madame Librarian - Feb 29, 2004 9:02 pm (#310 of 383)
I suppose people who remember a prophecy --like DD remembering this one-- might die or be unavailable for telling the contents (far away, memory charm, ill, whatever). The orb becomes the official record and presumably cannot be tampered with. I wonder if the orb that was smashed will be replaced. Actually the whole lot of them were smashed, weren't they? Wonder what gives with all those prophecies now that have no official records? Do they still hold? I'd like to know more about this keeper, too.
Ciao. Barb
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Mare - Mar 2, 2004 2:42 am (#311 of 383)
I'm not so sure wether Dumbledore created the memory in the orb. Maybe the prophecies get into the hall of the prophecies in a more mysterious manner. And it doesn't matter wether some-one hears it or not, if a prophecy is made, an orb comes into being.
some of the orbs aren't glowing anymore, it was already suggested that those are the prophecies that are fullfilled. What is it that makes them stop shining? surely not the keeper of the hall, how would he be able to know wether every single prophecy was fullfilled or not?
what if the dimming of the glow just happens when the prophecy is done. What if, in some way, the orb is in "contact" with the prophecy?
Than do the smashing of the orbs would have any significance? Mme Librarian wondered wether the smashed orbs are going to be replaced. I am wondering wether they can be replaced.
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Devika - Mar 2, 2004 3:56 am (#312 of 383)
Just a small minor teeny-weeny little point, which I'm sure won't have any bearing on future books - but now that the ministry record of the prophecy is destroyed, and it only remains in DD's memory, will the Ministry try to create a new record? I mean DD is bound to die sooner or later. If the Ministry has a whole department (or sub-department!) devoted to records of such prophecies, then this stuff must surely be important. Does the ministry now need to get it again from DD?
Plus, apart from the keeper of prephecies, do all unspeakables know about such prophecies? or is it really classified information? If unspeakables do know about the content of prophecies, then I'm sure many of them would have such an important prophecy preserved in their memories. Voldy could just have gotten it out of them. But if they don't know about the content of the prophecies, then what is it that they are so secretive about? the room of love??? I don't understand. Inspite of spending some 3-4 chapters in there, I still can't understand this Department of Ministries, and I really hope we are taken there again!
Edit: Ooops.. I think I just missed reading a few posts in my hurry. This point has been raised before! and just one post before! I think I'll go now and iron my hands and be back!
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Mare - Mar 2, 2004 4:08 am (#313 of 383)
Hey Devika, I was here reading your post before you edited it, and I was already wondering why you would bring up the same point as in the previous posts. I guess we all wonder about the same thing.
About the second part of your post. I don't think all unspeakables know about the prophecies. I think an unspeakable only knows about the things I the chamber he deals with. Are we even sure the keeper of the prophecies is an unspeakable? Maybe he isn't even human?
Are we absolutely sure the keeper knows the prophecies literally? Because you are right in that it is interesting that he seems to exist, but no DE goes after him. And if he is the keeper, where was he during the fight? At home sleeping? Poor man/woman/whatever, what a disaster it would be for him to come to work the next day.
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Madame Librarian - Mar 2, 2004 9:00 am (#314 of 383)
Does anyone think that the broken orb might mean that the prophecy will not hold? DD would know that, wouldn't he?
The reason I bring this up is because a number of times on various threads we have discussed the seeming contradiction in JKR's big theme of "choices" and a plot that hinges on the fulfillment of a prophecy. How can it be both? Are you fated to go on a particular path, or can your choices overrule that? Given that so much of our cultural and literary heritage deals with the exact question (even Biblical--what is free will?), I wonder if this is a set up by JKR to resolve the enigma, at least as far as the HP series is concerned.
Ciao. Barb
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Devika - Mar 2, 2004 9:48 am (#315 of 383)
I'm not sure Barb. I thought the orbs in the Ministry were only records. Records are getting lost all the time. This doesn't mean the thing also vanishes. Plus, a prophecy sounds like something definite, not something that will change. Otherwise seers wouldn't be so big. So, I guess destruction of the orb will have no bearing on the prophecy's fulfilment.
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I Am Used Vlad - Mar 2, 2004 12:14 pm (#316 of 383)
I Am Almighty!
I don't think the existence of the prophesy contradicts the theme of choices. If the prophesy said "Harry Potter will kill Voldemort," then it would. But the prophesy has two possible outcomes; Harry killing Voldemort or Voldemort killing Harry. The choices made by Harry and his supporters, and, for that matter, Voldemort, will have a major effect on which outcome comes to pass.
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FCBarca - Mar 2, 2004 1:24 pm (#317 of 383)
Nimrod 2000, I think that JKR made the Prophecy have two outcomes so the remaining books won't be boring. I don't think it realistically should have had two outcomes. But if she said which one will die, then it would be boring. We know Voldemort will 'go', but whether Harry will go with him is debatable.
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Czarina - Mar 2, 2004 2:07 pm (#318 of 383)
That would depend on Harry's choices, though. Yes, WE know Voldemort must be defeated because WE're reading the story. Harry will make the choices in the story to fit with Rowling's plotline, which probably includes defeating Voldemort, but from the characters' perspective, he has to MAKE the choices.
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FCBarca - Mar 2, 2004 2:15 pm (#319 of 383)
Czarina, I don't see what that has to do with the prophecy? I don't see how Harry's choices will alter the prophecy? JKR said 'one will die at the hand of the other', because it would be stupid to say who is going to die. What I was saying had nothing to do with choices, I was saying how JKR had to be unrealistic concerning the prophecy.
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Madame Librarian - Mar 2, 2004 3:20 pm (#320 of 383)
nimrod, I read that prophecy as offering two either/or outcomes, not choices. Could Harry just drop everything and choose not to fight or confront Voldie? Or, even if there's a kind of choice implied, it by no means makes me think of the kind of options open to a young wizard on the brink of adulthood who doesn't have a prophecy written about him. The very idea that a prophecy even exists weakens the arguement that Harry has a choice. That's why I'm suspicious about the real reason JKR has presented us with this dilemma.
Remember when Glinda tells Dorothy that she's always had the ability to go home when she wanted to, she just had to click her heels three times and say, "There's no place like home."? It was as if she was saying, you just have to choose to do something and it can be done, you don't need a wizard's help at all. Well, there's a little part of me that thinks something like that is going to happen with this prophecy/choice business. It won't necessarily be quite so light-hearted, but it will strike Harry (and others) as obvious once it's out in the open.
Ciao. Barb
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Tomoé - Mar 11, 2004 12:03 am (#321 of 383)
Back in business
The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ...
born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seven month dies ...
and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ...
and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ...
the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seven month dies ...
What if everything that have been stated in this prophecy was already over? What if baby-Harry vanquish the Dark Lord by killing his body with power that Voldemort know not? What if we have no clue yet about how the final battle will occure?
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Prefect Marcus - Mar 11, 2004 9:48 am (#322 of 383)
"Anyone can cook"
Bravo. *Clap-Clap-Clap* Well done, Tomoé!
There is that little pesky phrase, "...either must die...", that I think precludes that possibility, but the thought is certainly worth thinking about. :-D
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FCBarca - Mar 11, 2004 9:56 am (#323 of 383)
Very good, Tomoé. The only problem being that Voldemort is still around, and that Harry hasn't 'vanquised' him, and only his body went.
But that is an interesting theory, Tomoé.
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Tomoé - Mar 11, 2004 12:54 pm (#324 of 383)
Back in business
Marcus, Voldemort's body did die, he had a brand new one in GoF, even if it looks like the last one, he didn't restore the ancien one.
FCBarka, the prophecy didn't say vanquish for good or forever, we can assume Voldemort was vanquished for 12 years.
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FCBarca - Mar 12, 2004 2:40 pm (#325 of 383)
No, you're right, Tomoé, the Prophecy didn't, Dumbledore did. I suppose Dumbledore could have misunderstood it. I would think it meant for good, but it didn't say it, so there is an equal chance that it didn't mean for good.
There is a good chance you could be right, Tomoé. And due to my style, I usually have a different opinion. So, you're theory must be good, if I'm not giving an opinion of my own on it.
(There are lots of good theories on the Forum. I am just saying that I usually have a different opinion, that's all, not that there aren't many good theories on the Forum, because there are. )
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Gina R Snape - Mar 14, 2004 9:38 pm (#326 of 383)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
I was reading the "Harry Wasn't Special When..." thread and found myself pleased at how many of us knew there must've been a prophesy.
After catching up on this thread, I have a few small thoughts.
First, I don't see the DL as a serial killer. I see him as a terrorist. He is power hungry and killing is one option in his repertoire. It is not the thing in itself for him, and in fact there are times when it seems that the DL would have chosen not to kill (e.g. he had 'no choice' with Bertha Jorkins and told Lily she 'need not' have to die).
Secondly, the cynical part of me agrees that JKR wrote the prophesy the way she did in order to stay sufficiently vague for the next two books. But her phraseology is very particular. So, I do suspect the end will be something other than a quick AK. I've said before I think Harry will win through love, or through the redemption of the DL. Twice now, Harry has beat the DL through love---in PS/SS and in OoP. Love as protection is a theme running through the books. So it makes sense he could choose to make some kind of loving action which renders the DL 'vanquished.' But I wouldnt discount Harry's wizarding skills, as JKR has made a point of reminding people how good Harry has become in dark arts defence.
As for Neville, I think his was an unhappy coincidence of birth. He'll come into his own, but I don't think he has any other direct part in the prophesy.
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Luanee - Mar 15, 2004 5:20 pm (#327 of 383)
I was thinking why was the prophecy said using the words "The Dark Lord" instead of Voldemort's name? Surely Trelawny, in her 'seeing' state, won't be afraid to call out the name? I know it is not very likely, but is there any possibility of it referring to someone else?
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Denise P. - Mar 17, 2004 10:23 pm (#328 of 383)
Ravenclaw Pony
I am reposting this from a duplicate thread...Denise
Sharker11 - Mar 17, 2004 9:03 pm
Sibyll Trelawney made her second correct prophecy following Harry's final exam in June of 199(?).
"THE DARK LORD LIES ALONE AND FRIENDLESS, ABANDONED BY HIS FOLLOWERS. HIS SERVANT HAS BEEN CHAINED THESE TWELVE YEARS. TONIGHT, BEFORE MIDNIGHT... THE SERVANT WILL BREAK FREE AND SET OUT TO REJOIN HIS MASTER. THE DARK LORD WILL RISE AGAIN WITH HIS SERVANTS AID, GREATER AND MORE TERRIBLE THAN EVER HE WAS. TONIGHT... BEFORE MIDNIGHT... THE SERVANT... WILL SET OU... TO REJOIN... HIS MASTER...." (Pg 270, PoA)
Most of this Prophecy has come true, Big V has been reborn. Parts of this prophecy have not. Big V has yet to be "greater and more terrible than ever he was." The following issues have been raised about this prophecy...
1) I believe that in order for Big V to be worse then before, either Albus dies, the Ministry falls, or Hogwarts will be attacked. Either way, do to the fact that the OotP ends with Big V in a worse po
2) Peter was hardly chained to the Weasley's. Is it possible that Peter is not being referred to in this prophecy.
3) Albus seems hardly concerned about hearing this when Harry tells him in Remus's office. Why?
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Madame Librarian - Mar 17, 2004 10:28 pm (#329 of 383)
This "before midnight" phrase...maybe we should take a close look at the time frames for the events at the Shrieking Shack. I guess "before midnight" is a loose enough time reference, however. Also, who else in the story could be considered to be "chained?"
Ciao. Barb
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S.E. Jones - Mar 17, 2004 10:31 pm (#330 of 383)
Let it snow!
I think the "greater and more terrible than ever he was" has to do with the fact that he used Harry's blood in his rebirthing ceremony. In GoF, Voldemort says, "But the blood of a foe...... Any wizard who hated me...as so many of them still do. But I knew the one I must use, if I was to rise again,more powerful than I had been when I had fallen. I wanted Harry Potter's blood. I wanted the blood of the one who had stripped me of my power thirteen years ago...". It seems that the more powerful the enemy (and who is more his enemy than the person who "vanquished" him 13 years before), the more powerful the spell, and thus the more powerful he is when he returns....
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alexa - Mar 18, 2004 1:19 am (#331 of 383)
When did Harry inform Dumbledore about the prophecy? After Harry and Hermione helped Sirius escaped? Sorry I don't have the book with me. If Harry only informed Dumbledore after Petter escaped, then it made sense that Dumbledore is only taking this information mildly. (or calmly) If Dumbledore heard this Prophecy before Petter escaped, he might have show more reactions or perhaps offer some advise to Harry. I mean, no use crying over spilt milk right?
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Mare - Mar 18, 2004 1:50 am (#332 of 383)
Also, who else in the story could be considered to be "chained?"
Well Crouch Jr, but the timeframe isn't correct. I always read "chained" as in trapped in that ratform. He did it voluntarily, but due to the fact that everybody thought him dead he couldn't change back and live a normal live.
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FCBarca - Mar 18, 2004 3:57 am (#333 of 383)
"Peter was hardly chained to the Weasley's. Is it possible that Peter is not being referred to in this prophecy."
It meant he was chained as a rat. I know that doesn't really say much, but I'm sure that is what it meant, as he could have just run away from the Weasley's.
Of course the prophecy was talking about Peter, we saw him leave, and we saw, at the start of GOF and at the end, that it was indeed Peter who helped Voldemort back to his body.
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Neville Longbottom - Mar 18, 2004 4:45 am (#334 of 383)
1) I believe that in order for Big V to be worse then before, either Albus dies, the Ministry falls, or Hogwarts will be attacked.
I believe that all of the above will happen. Let's say book 6 will end with both, the fall of the ministry and Dumbledore's death. That would be truly dark. And then in book 7, with Dumbledore out of the way, the big V could attack Hogwarts for the finale battle.
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Emily - Mar 18, 2004 4:59 pm (#335 of 383)
Also, Peter was chained to Lupin and Ron as they left the Shreiking Shack. He did literally break out of that.
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urzafyffe - Mar 22, 2004 6:09 pm (#336 of 383)
I dont remember if this has been discussed on this thread or not but I was wondering if this is a hint from JKR about her full theme with the books is inside the first Prophecy.
...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives... US pg. 841
Could this by chance mean more then just kill the man but kill the dream? The reason I ask that is after reading Madam Poppy post: Madam Poppy "Was anyone else disappointed with Book 5?" 3/6/04 6:31am I thought that there could be more to what the prophecy meant then just Harry and DL.
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Hogs Head - Mar 24, 2004 9:46 pm (#337 of 383)
Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
I think there is more to the (1st) prophecy but sadly it does for now seem hopelessly ambiguous to the loyal reader. And what can "neither can live while the other survives" mean? So far they are both alive (again, in Voldemort's case) and both are, in their own fashion, surviving. So, there's something else at work here. Maybe there is a lacuna in the prophetic fabric or a small part missing or still withheld.
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Tomoé - Mar 25, 2004 7:29 am (#338 of 383)
Back in business
Maybe Harry is a zombie. ^_^
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Madame Librarian - Mar 25, 2004 9:41 pm (#339 of 383)
On another thread (I just read it and already forgot which one, sheesh!) someone proposed that we don't have the complete prophecy, that DD was holding some parts back. The elipses might represent missing phrases.
Though I find it hard to believe JKR would repeat the DD not telling all business, and even though I do think the man is still holding some things back, I find it a stretch to think that he's actually hiding parts of the prophecy. However, I could be convinced otherwise if anyone has a solid arguement on this.
These prophecies are tricky things. Even the punctuation is tricky.
Ciao. Barb
EDIT--Apologies to Vballman. I found the thread I mentioned above. It's on the "Problems in the 5th book" thread, post #434.
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FCBarca - Mar 26, 2004 9:27 am (#340 of 383)
Madame Librarian, if Dumbledore isn't hiding more of the prophecy, how come Dumbledore said to Harry that Voldemort wanted it to find out how to destroy him, and not say to Harry that Voldemort is wrong, as the prophecy doesn't contain that information?
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S.E. Jones - Mar 26, 2004 9:40 am (#341 of 383)
Let it snow!
I don't think the fact that the Prophecy doesn't clearly hold the information on how to kill Harry is a good argument for Dumbledore leaving something out. Here are my reasons:
1) Dumbledore may have wanted to keep Voldemort guessing. If he's focusing on the Prophecy then he's not working at full force; if he's worried about what happens if he attacks Harry again (he may be remembering the Priori Incantatem and, not knowning they have brother wands, doesn't know why it happended and thus thinks it has something to do with the Prophecy) then he won't be going directly after Harry anytime soon.
2) Voldemort has a great deal of magic knowledge (Dumbledore has admitted as much) and so he may be able to read something into the prophecy, interpret something from it, about how to kill Harry that Harry, and thus us, can't .
As for the punctuation, you see the same punctuation (the "...") in Trewlany's second Prophecy. I think it's just there to show pauses, to show she's kind of out of it....
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Prefect Marcus - Mar 26, 2004 10:23 am (#342 of 383)
"Anyone can cook"
Also, the prophecy DOES say how to destroy Harry. Voldemort has to do it himself. None of this surrogate stuff. Don't waste time, effort, and resources on it. He has to do the dirty deed himself.
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FCBarca - Mar 26, 2004 3:37 pm (#343 of 383)
Prefect Marcus, that doesn't really say how, though, does it? That says that Voldemort does have to kill Harry, not how to kill Harry.
S.E. Jones, I believe it is a good argument, just maybe not a correct one.
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Czarina - Mar 26, 2004 5:43 pm (#344 of 383)
Maybe the ellipses DO represent missing words in both Prophecies. However, HARRY heard the entire Prophecy. JKR didn't write it all down in the book for us to READ, though. We are to learn what was contained in the Prophecy later.
Actually, I don't really believe that. It's just a faint possibility. Personally, I think JKR knows what her cryptic Prophecies mean, just like Dumbledore. We readers are stumped at the meaning because we did not write them. We did not plan them out. I can see patterns in my stories that I write that no one else does. Why? I wrote them.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 29, 2004 9:53 am (#345 of 383)
Let it snow!
Precisely, Czarina. And Harry (and therefore us) heard the second prophecy firsthand, with the "..." where they were just as they are in the first prophecy. If something was left out, then Trewlany left it out, not Dumbledore. I still hold that they are just there to show she is rambling in her trance....
FCBarca, are you referring to my personal reasons for believing so or the punctuation?
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Gina R Snape - Mar 29, 2004 6:23 pm (#346 of 383)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Hey, have you guys heard this theory?
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Personally, I think it's rubbish. But it's worth reading over.
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Madame Librarian - Mar 29, 2004 7:07 pm (#347 of 383)
I'm not convinced of the bulk of it, Gina R Snape, but I do like the bit about a piece of Voldie's mind being forced into Harry's mind being the cause of the scar. And, I am intrigued now by all the "little voice" quotes. Is that just JKR's style of how an inner dialogue should be written, or are they clues to something really important about Harry's mind?
Ciao. Barb
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Madame Librarian - Mar 29, 2004 7:47 pm (#348 of 383)
I tried to add this as an edit to my post above, but it took me so long to think it out and type it that the clock ran out. Anyway...
The particular phrasing and pacing of the prophecy has bugged me a long time. Wouldn't a nice straightforward version read something like this, starting from the tricky part--
...and one must die at the hand of the other for only one can live...
Why didn't JKR take a more direct route with the language? The rhythmic repitition of "either - neither?" To purposely confound us? To leave some wiggle room in interpretation?
And, I just noticed an odd thing. I always thought that the prophecy just started over again at the end, kind of like a looped recording of an "Attention, K-Mart Shoppers" message, but it doesn't! The opening line (OoP, chapter 37, pg. 841, US) reads--
"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...."
The final line, the one I thought was the beginning again, says--
"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...."
So now I wonder if this continued would it reveal more stuff, or have a different phrasing since it doesn't appear to just repeat the same lines. Am I making sense? I've managed to tangle myself up in my own language.
Ciao. Barb
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Hogs Head - Mar 29, 2004 7:52 pm (#349 of 383)
Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Now someone said that Harry heard the whole prophesy. Do we know that for a fact? I know that he heard a replay of Dumbledore's memories from the pensieve, but (a) did Dumbledore put all of his memories in the pensieve to begin with and (b) does the party placing memories in the pensieve have the ability to "edit" or remove segments of a single memory? I don't think we know any of that for certain, do we?
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DJ Evans - Mar 29, 2004 7:56 pm (#350 of 383)
Genealogy....Where you confuse the dead & irritate the living!
Man, you have to give that guy credit--he sure put a LOT of thought into his theory there, didn't he? But I'm with you Gina R Snape on this one mostly. There was one or two things that I can see having some merit to it, like LV won't ever be a whole person really till Harry is killed & I just don't think that will come to pass. And if Harry "did" accquire some of LV's mind, then it must be the part of LV's brain that had the smart's in it. Cause as far as I'm concern, LV isn't the smartest wizard around. He has messed up so many times and has let situations just slip by him where he could have gotten to Harry once and for all.
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Elanor- Hufflepuff Prefect
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The Prophecy (Post 351 to 383)
Elanor Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:58 am
urzafyffe - Mar 29, 2004 8:45 pm (#351 of 383)
I sorry that theory sounded too much like Lord of the Rings for me to read.
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Tomoé - Mar 29, 2004 9:23 pm (#352 of 383)
Back in business
I'm sure Harry heard the whole prophecy or everything Trelawney said. As Madame Librarian said, the first prophecy began and end by :
The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches....
The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies....
The second prophecy's third and final sentences are :
Tonight, before midnight, the servant will break free and set out to rejoin his master.
Tonight ... before midnight ... the servant ... will set out ... to rejoin ... his master ...
Both prophecies have twin sentences, the second twin ending the prophecy by summarizing the whole. So, except if the second prophecy was imcomplete, we should know all the prophecy.
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Gina R Snape - Mar 29, 2004 9:37 pm (#353 of 383)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Yeah, Voldemort leaving a bit of his brain behind sounds a little Monty Python really.
He makes Harry out to sound psychotic!
The one part that made the remotest bit of sense to me was the part about Voldemort not really being alive when he lost his body in the first place. But see, I think getting some of Harry's blood made him a little more human again...
And I just don't see JKR killing off Harry. Nuh uh. Ain't gonna happen...
And I doubt DD would say he's telling Harry 'everything' and then not let him hear the whole prophesy. It just doesn't ring true to me.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 30, 2004 12:36 am (#354 of 383)
Let it snow!
Hogs Head : Now someone said that Harry heard the whole prophesy. Do we know that for a fact?
Hogs Head, I mentioned Harry hearing the whole prophecy but I was referring to the second prophecy:
“The Dark Lord lies alone and friendless, abandoned by his followers. His servant has been chained these twelve years. Tonight, before midnight... the servant will break free and set out to rejoin his master. The Dark Lord will rise again with his servant’s aid, greater and more terrible than ever he was. Tonight... before midnight... the servant... will set out... to rejoin... his master...”
I was saying that, if you assume we aren't hearing the entire first prophecy based on the "..." between lines, then you have to assume the same with the second. But we know we heard the entire second prophecy because Harry was sitting right in front of her when she went into the trance and when she came out of it. So, if something is being omitted, it is being done by an unconscious Trewlany and not Dumbledore, which I find highly unlikely.
Here's the first prophecy, by the way, so you can compare the punctuation:
“The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches.... Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equil, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives.... The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies....”
EDIT: You know, Gina, strangely enough, the only part of that theory I really found interesting was the question about if either of them was truely alive. Weird, I know, but why is it that Harry keeps saying that he doesn't know how/why he survived that night that the AK backfired but he knows that his mother's love saved him? Does he not want others to know or is that JKR's way of hinting that that's not the full reason he's alive?
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Tomoé - Mar 30, 2004 4:30 am (#355 of 383)
Back in business
In JKR's last chat :
Josh: Right at the beginning, when Voldemort tried to kill Harry, how did Voldemort and Harry both survive?
JK Rowling replies -> That is the crucial and central question and if I answered it there would be hardly any point writing books six and seven... so I won't!
It sounds like there something tricky. Is Voldemort alive? Certainly not, he survive a AK after all. Is Harry alive? You made me doubt it Sarah.
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FCBarca - Mar 30, 2004 4:32 am (#356 of 383)
S.E Jones, you said:
"I don't think the fact that the Prophecy doesn't clearly hold the information on how to kill Harry is a good argument for Dumbledore leaving something out."
So I said:
"S.E. Jones, I believe it is a good argument, just maybe not a correct one."
I was saying I believe it is a good argument, but it may not be correct (that Dumbledore had left something out.) I was half-agreeing with you.
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Catherine - Mar 30, 2004 5:43 am (#357 of 383)
Canon Seeker
S.E. Jones--I like that you raise the question "Is Harry alive?"
I posed this to my husband before OotP came out, and he laughed at it. It has merit, though. Here's what made me think of it:
Remember in GoF when Trelawney is predicting Harry's demise for the zillionith time, and Harry is shrugging it off? Ron jokes that if Harry had died all the times that Trewlawney predicted, Harry would be "sort of a super concentrated ghost."
That phrase has always stuck with me. Ron can be right when he makes jokes!
I can't say that I believe this theory, but I'm glad that I'm not a complete "Luna"tic for having the thought.
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Gina R Snape - Mar 30, 2004 9:08 am (#358 of 383)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Harry not fully alive? Hmmmmmm. This raises possibilities my feeble little mind can't fully comprehend. But after reading that JKR quote, you have got me wondering!
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Padfoot - Mar 30, 2004 10:52 am (#359 of 383)
If Harry is not alive, then is he a ghost? He looks different than Sir Nick, and he runs into things. So he must have a solid body. The Dursley's would love to know they had a dead nephew "living" at their house. I just don't buy it. Now can a wizard be partially alive? I'm not even sure what that would be.
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Hogs Head - Mar 30, 2004 1:10 pm (#360 of 383)
Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Hmmm. So, in that "not alive" theory, maybe the original AK curse which Voldemort unleashed on the infant Harry will eventually kill one of them -- Harry or Voldemort. So then it could be stored up in Harry's scar, waiting to zap one (of them in the end, and just awaiting some deciding factor that will direct it towards or away from one or the other. I'll think about that, but I'm not ready to buy it.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 30, 2004 7:22 pm (#361 of 383)
Let it snow!
Interesting, Hog. There does seem to be some magic held in Harry's scar and he certainly feels it. When I read your post I was thinking of the scene in PS where Quirrell touches Harry and both Harry and Quirrell are in pain: ...and Quirrell lunged, knocking Harry clean off his feet, landing on top of him, both hands around Harry's neck --- Harry's scar was almost blinding him with pain, yet he could see Quirrell howling in agony. (PS, ch 17, pg294, US). Now we know Lily's protection had something to do with why Quirrell (who had Voldemort sticking out of his head) felt pain when he touched Harry, but why did Harry feel pain? Even in the graveyard in GoF, after Voldemort had removed Lily's protection, Harry feels pain when Voldemort touches him: Harry felt the cold tip of the long white finger touch him, and thought his head would burst with pain. (GoF, ch33, US). So, is there some of the magic from the AK left in his scar? Could that be what is used to finally kill one of them? Dumbledore does mention that the strain of holding on to Quirrell nearly killed Harry in PS, yet, according to the Prophecy, only Voldemort (who was in Quirrell at the time) can kill Harry (admittedly, though, she may not have had the Prophecy written out, word-per-word, at the time)....
Also, in her World Day chat, JKR said:
Cathedral: Don't want to rune the ending, but will we be finding out more about the significance of the shape of Harry's scar in future books?
JK Rowling replies -> The shape is not the most significant aspect of that scar, and that's all I'm going to say!
Was she referring to the connection between Harry and Voldemort or something else?
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Hogs Head - Mar 31, 2004 4:47 pm (#362 of 383)
Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Just one follow up thought on S.E. Jones's follow up thought -- I'm not convinced that Voldemort "removed" Lily's protection in the graveyard scene. The persistence of that protection could explain the continuation of the pain at Voldemort's touch. Moreover, since Voldemort does not strike Harry (or doesn't succeed in striking Harry -- perhaps there is a difference) in the MoM battle at the end of OoP, but instead tries to bait Dumbledore into doing so, I'm not sure that Voldemort is yet convinced (or portrayed as being convinced) that such protection is gone.
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Prefect Marcus - Mar 31, 2004 5:14 pm (#363 of 383)
"Anyone can cook"
Actually, I think Voldie simply chose to concentrate of Dumbledore because Dumbledore was the greater threat. The only time good ol' Lord Thingey is going to attack Harry directly is when there is no Dumbledore to worry about.
Mark
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prof sprout - Apr 9, 2004 9:32 am (#364 of 383)
I definitely think it Harry and not Neville, because if it was the first book would be titled "Neville Longbottom and the Source of the Lost Toad."
I'm sorry Tim has rubbed off on me. And when I thought of that I just wanted to include it somewhere. I thought the prophecy thread was a good place.
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Denise P. - Apr 14, 2004 6:21 am (#365 of 383)
Ravenclaw Pony
This is NOT my post, it was orginally posted by:
How does knowledge of the phrophecy effect Harry and friends?
DA Member - Apr 13, 2004 10:22 pm
I realize that finding out that Harry must kill or be killed is going to be traumatic for all involved, but I can't help thinking that the meer knowledge of the prophecy will play a huge role in character development. After reading OoP, the question I had was how does Harry tell Ron and Hermione? Given the chain of events that concluded OoP, Harry has got alot of issues to deal with. I know there has been alot of speculation about the fulfillment of the prophecy, but I'm more interested in what happens between now and, well, the end.
Towards the end of Oop, I seem to remember something alluding to the fact Harry wasn't any more afraid of Voldamort now than he was before knowledge of the prophecy. Harry has to deal with knowing it is in large part his fault that Sirius is dead, and that he was responsible for the near death of his DA friends, for what turned out to be a trick. I believe that Harry will begin to feel a sort of responsibility to protect his friends, and I wonder if in book 6 we don't see Harry become more of a loner. How does Harry tell Ron and Hermione that he must eventually kill or be killed? How does that revalation affect the trio?
Given the gravity of the prophecy, and the sense of finallity that it suggests, how will Ron and Hermione treat Harry? Will he tell them prior to the school year, or will it be a end of term suprise? I certainly have my own theories, but I was curious how others felt.
I apologize if this has been covered previously, I looked for it for quite awhile before posting, I hope this is ok, as it is my first post. I'm looking forward to seeing others thoughts.
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popkin - May 11, 2004 8:34 am (#366 of 383)
mother
Denise, I love your family photo. Everyone looks great in it.
In the March 4 interview, JKR said that OotP was Harry's break down year, and that he will be much more mature in the next two books. For that reason, I think he will be mature enough to realize he needs his friends now more than ever, and will tell them about the prophecy early on in book six so they can help him to think through the possibilities. I think they will grow closer as friends, but they will develop other friendships as well. The whole crowd that went to the DOM will work together through the rest of the series.
Back to the prophecy.... Some were discussing the possibility that Harry was actually killed by the AK curse, and is now a "super concentrated ghost" as joked about by Ron. I'm sure that is not what happened since a ghost, concentrated or not, would not grow up, but would remain the same age he was the day he died.
I think at some point we are all going to think that Harry has died at Voldemort's hand, Voldemort included, but he will actually be under the influence of the draught of the living dead (that Snape mentions in his first potions lesson).
“The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches.... Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives.... The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies....”
And, I think that "the other" could actually turn out to be Wormtail, who will have to make a choice about which wizard he is going to kill with his silver hand - and he will choose to kill Voldemort. And, since "neither can live while the other survives", Wormtail will die in the struggle, too.
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Tomoé - May 11, 2004 11:06 am (#367 of 383)
Back in business
Or maybe Harry will be killed with the Avada Kedavra curse, but some of his muggle-born friends will have the sense to try CPR (CardioPulmonary Resuscitation) on him and call an ambulance. They will then discover AK only last a day. ^_^
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I show not your face but your hearts desire - May 17, 2004 12:03 pm (#368 of 383)
I searched and couldn't find anything on this (point the way if you know --->) but do you think there's any significance in the fact that some of the prophecies in the halls were glowing, and others weren't. The one Harry picked up was glowing, so do you think that all of the orbs that were glowing held a prophecy about all present(HRH, Ginny,Neville, Luna) or what? Any idea's? :-)
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haymoni - May 17, 2004 12:29 pm (#369 of 383)
Maybe the other prophecies had already been fulfilled.
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Ozymandias - May 17, 2004 7:32 pm (#370 of 383)
Nothing beside remains...
This has been nagging at me for a while:
We know that one of the major themes of HP is choices, and that it directly affects Harry (his choice not to be in Slytherin). The existence of a prophecy seems to go directly against this. My thought is, since Harry knows about the prophecy now, it is void. It seems that now that he knows what the prophecy is he can choose whether to take the path he has been fated to or to try something else. This could explain why it was kept secret, even by the Order, since the prophecy definitely asserts that Harry is capable of getting rid of Lord Thingy, and if it were to become void, they could be facing a much more difficult battle. (Thus, Harry is the weapon that the Order was talking about.)
Any thoughts?
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Prefect Marcus - May 17, 2004 7:39 pm (#371 of 383)
"Anyone can cook"
Well, the prophesy is doubled-edged. Either Voldemort will kill Harry or Harry will kill Voldemort. Now Harry can choose not fight him, so Voldemort will kill him. Or he can choose to fight him so Harry has a chance of killing him instead.
Harry's freedom of choice is still intact.
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Hogs Head - May 25, 2004 8:49 pm (#372 of 383)
Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
I also posted this on the Neville thread.
Perhaps someone else has noticed this before, but I have not. We know for certain that Harry did not hear the prophecy when it broke at the MoM battle (he heard a replay or partial replay of it later from Dumbledore's pensieve). However, although I personally doubt that he did, Neville may have heard the prophecy when the sphere broke. The text does not rule that out with certainty. The sequence is:
1. Harry tugs on Neville's robes to help him up (OoP, ch. 35, p. 804, U.S. 1st ed.); 2. Neville's robes tear and the sphere drops from his pocket; 3. Neville's "floundering feet kicked it"; 4. The sphere "flew some ten feet to their right and smashed on the step beneath them"; 5. Harry and Neville "both . . . stare at the place where it had broken"; 6. A "pearly-white figure with hugely magnified eyes" rises in to the air "unnoticed by any but them"; (id., at p. 805); 7. "Harry could see its mouth moving, but in all the crashes and screams and yells surrounding them, not one word of the prophecy could he [i.e., Harry] hear."
While it is logical to assume that Neville, also ten feet away and also surrounded by the same noises, likewise could not hear it, we do not know that to be a fact.
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Catherine - May 26, 2004 5:18 am (#373 of 383)
Canon Seeker
Interesting, Hogs Head. I had not even considered that possibility.
Neville did not volunteer in the hospital wing that he had heard the prophecy when it broke. But Harry didn't volunteer this information, either. So that doesn't prove anything.
I have assumed that Neville did not hear the prophecy, as he was so horrified when it broke: "I'b so sorry, Harry, I didn'd bean do--"
His phrase here makes me think that he is apologizing for the smashing of the prophecy, not its contents. Neville was not exactly in a position to listen to the propechy--his legs were flailing, and there was a huge amount of noise.
I noticed that Neville was the one who told the other students that the prophecy had smashed. We know that Neville is quite good at keeping secrets, but I keep thinking that if Neville had heard the prophecy over the din of the fight, then he might have assumed that Harry heard it also, and said something about it, at least to Harry. One could argue that Sirius's death and the other injured students may have distracted him from doing so, however.
Right now I think that Neville has not heard the prophecy in its entirety. It would be interesting if he had heard part of it, as the spy did in the Hogs Head, and begins to think that he, Neville, is "supposed" to vanquish Voldemort.
Lots to think about with this idea, Hogs Head.
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S.E. Jones - May 27, 2004 3:13 am (#374 of 383)
Let it snow!
Okay, we speculated on just why Voldemort didn't die when his AK rebounded the first time and assumed, as he did, that it was all the precautions against death that he took, but what if it wasn't. What if the reason he didn't die is because Harry didn't kill him? The prophecy says that Harry is the only one who has the ability to vanquish him but Harry wasn't the one that caused the AK to rebound, Lily's sacrifice did. Could Harry have then survived the backlash of magic/energy/whatever that caused the house to explode (something happened to the house because it's in ruins when Hagrid shows up to retrieve Harry) because Voldemort did. In other words, maybe one can't die while the other lives (they sort of keep each other alive) unless the one kills the other. Did I even make any sense here?.....
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mike miller - May 27, 2004 10:50 am (#375 of 383)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
"...maybe one can't die while the other lives (they sort of keep each other alive) unless the one kills the other."
Sarah - I think this idea is behind some of the predictions of Harry's death in book 7. It is a very interesting hypothesis; but, I quickly get into a "chicken or the egg" circular arguement with myself. Was it the prophecy or the precautions, was the prophecy worded the way it was because of the precautions? See what I mean.
I hope JKR will give us a more staight forward explanation.
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S.E. Jones - May 27, 2004 11:11 am (#376 of 383)
Let it snow!
I think the prophecy was worded the way it was because of something else, not the precautions. One's life force would keep the other alive because of the connection that is now forged between them because of the backfired AK, thus no-one can kill one of them except one of them because it would break the connection if one of them did it (well that's my theory anyway)....
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S.E. Jones - May 27, 2004 2:45 pm (#377 of 383)
Let it snow!
Okay, just summarizing to make things more clear:
We know from the books that Lily's sacrifice connected the two of them by causing the AK to backfire. I think the reason Voldemort didn't die is because of this connection. He lived because Harry was alive. The AK couldn't kill him because it was Lily's sacrifice that caused it to rebound, not Harry himself (the prophecy says only Harry and Voldemort can kill each other). The backfiring curse destroyed his body (we can assume no body was found because people said he disappeared not died which would point to a body being found) and so his spirit, still alive, was left without a body, caught between life and death, and that's why he wasn't exactly a ghost. Reciprically, Harry didn't die when the house exploded or fell in (it was in ruins when Hagrid showed up) because Voldemort was then still alive, technically, even though he was bodiless. Thus, one's lifeforce keeps the other alive unless they break the connection by one killing the other. But does that mean they both would die or that only one would? I think this may be why Harry has such a strong connection to death throughout the series and why there was a gleam of triumph in Dumbledore's eye in GoF. I think using Harry's blood may have either strengthened the connection between them that was weakened when Voldemort lost his body, thus ensuring Voldemort can be killed, or providing for a way that Harry can survive once the connection is broken. Also, the entire thing started with love (his mother's love initiated the whole connection) and could be stopped with love (the power that Harry has that Voldemort has not; it could be used to break the connection), so I think it fits.
One more note, the only times we've ever seen Harry nearly die are in books 1 and 2, to my knowledge. In book 1, Voldemort was inside Quirrel, and so it would've been Voldemort that was actually killing him. In book 2, the basilisk's poison is spreading through his body and Fawkes quickly heals him but we don't know what would've happened had he not been healed. His body may have been badly damaged but he not have died (he may have slipped into a coma and needed some serious treatment) or he may have become the same sort of spirit-thing that Voldemort was prior to regaining his body. I don't think he would've died. However, when Tom Riddle Jr (who I think could've possibly killed him) tries to attack him, Harry is able to destroy him first by destroying the diary so we don't know what might have happened there either.
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Rich - May 27, 2004 11:31 pm (#378 of 383)
Families are about love overcoming emotional torture. -Matt Groening
I posted this on the Harry thread after your theory S.E., I thought I'd put it here too. But I just thought of something that doesn't fit.
That's really interesting S.E. Jones.
So you're suggesting that Harry and Voldemort are keeping each other alive, and have been since the night Voldemort killed James and Lily, because of effects of the backfiring AK? And because of this if one kills the other, there is a pretty large chance that the "killer" will die too? Because Harry has the ability to love whereas Voldemort, as far as we know, doesn't that could have an effect on how the story comes to an end, so to speak.
But, would Voldemort know about this? He's tried to kill Harry a few times since the events that occured when Lily and James died. So if he's tried to kill Harry then either he doesn't know about the whole "life-force" issue, or there's no such thing. There's a possibility he doesn't know, because he's underestimated charms before. But I think Voldemort would have learned from his mistakes, wouldn't he? Or is he too arrogant and self-assured?
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S.E. Jones - May 27, 2004 11:35 pm (#379 of 383)
Let it snow!
I don't think he knows. He assumed that it was all the precautions he took against death that kept him from dying before (he says so in the graveyard in GoF, that at least one must've worked) and so would have no reason to ever come up with any other explanation. I think that, if those precautions (which I don't think worked) hadn't been there, then I think he would've tried to come up with other reasons but why fix something if it isn't broken?
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Rich - May 28, 2004 12:20 am (#380 of 383)
Families are about love overcoming emotional torture. -Matt Groening
S.E., have you seen the "Occlumency/a-clue-men-see" theory. A link to it was posted on the "Predictions for Book six and seven" thread. The person who came up with it is a bit hysterical at the thought of discovering "the answer" but it's really interesting (from what I can deduce). It kind of ties in with your theory. Well, not much, but a tiny bit.
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I Am Used Vlad - May 28, 2004 11:49 am (#381 of 383)
I Am Almighty!
I like your theory, S.E. Jones, but disagree with the part about Voldemort surviving because the AK didn't come from Harry. If that were true, the prophesy is not just a prediction of what is to come, but a power in itself that can alter the course of events, and I don't think it is.
In book 6, if Harry is being attacked by DEs, could he just walk out into the open and say "AK me," knowing he wouldn't be killed? Could he, to amuse his friends, jump in front of trains, knowing that somehow the prophesy will miraculously save him? I doubt it.
I don't think the prophecy has any power to save either Harry or Voldemort.
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S.E. Jones - May 28, 2004 12:06 pm (#382 of 383)
Let it snow!
I didn't say the prophecy had any power. I think it only foresaw the event. The AK rebounded off of Lily's love sacrifice, not off of some inherint power in Harry and so it wasn't Harry that caused it to rebound, thus it wasn't Harry, but Lily who caused it to rebound, how does the prophecy have any power to cause this? I don't understand what you're saying.
I also didn't say their bodies couldn't be damaged or destroyed or that their spirits couldn't be displaced. We saw that happen with Voldemort in the first book when his body was either so badly damaged or destroyed that he was forced out of it. I think the same thing would happen if Harry had "jumped in front of a train", he'd become what Voldemort was in PS but not "pass beyond the veil", as it were, or become a ghost.... Did I make a bit more sense there?
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I Am Used Vlad - May 28, 2004 4:16 pm (#383 of 383)
I Am Almighty!
Sorry, I thought you were saying that the reason the rebounded AK didn't kill Voldemort was because Lily's sacrifice, and not Harry, was responsible for it. If this alone had been what you meant, then the existence of the prophecy would have been what kept Voldemort alive, and therefore it would have to have power.
But after re reading your theory, I see that you meant that the rebounded AK caused a connection between the two of them, and that this connection is what kept Voldemort alive, and would also keep Harry alive if anyone but Voldemort tried to kill him. I'll read more carefully in the future before I post.
What I meant in my post is that I think that Harry could be killed by someone other than Voldemort, or if he was foolish enough to do something like throw himself in front of a train, it is just not going to happen. I guess I'm saying that I don't think Harry would survive as a disembodied consciousness the way Voldemort did.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I sorry that theory sounded too much like Lord of the Rings for me to read.
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Tomoé - Mar 29, 2004 9:23 pm (#352 of 383)
Back in business
I'm sure Harry heard the whole prophecy or everything Trelawney said. As Madame Librarian said, the first prophecy began and end by :
The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches....
The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies....
The second prophecy's third and final sentences are :
Tonight, before midnight, the servant will break free and set out to rejoin his master.
Tonight ... before midnight ... the servant ... will set out ... to rejoin ... his master ...
Both prophecies have twin sentences, the second twin ending the prophecy by summarizing the whole. So, except if the second prophecy was imcomplete, we should know all the prophecy.
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Gina R Snape - Mar 29, 2004 9:37 pm (#353 of 383)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Yeah, Voldemort leaving a bit of his brain behind sounds a little Monty Python really.
He makes Harry out to sound psychotic!
The one part that made the remotest bit of sense to me was the part about Voldemort not really being alive when he lost his body in the first place. But see, I think getting some of Harry's blood made him a little more human again...
And I just don't see JKR killing off Harry. Nuh uh. Ain't gonna happen...
And I doubt DD would say he's telling Harry 'everything' and then not let him hear the whole prophesy. It just doesn't ring true to me.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 30, 2004 12:36 am (#354 of 383)
Let it snow!
Hogs Head : Now someone said that Harry heard the whole prophesy. Do we know that for a fact?
Hogs Head, I mentioned Harry hearing the whole prophecy but I was referring to the second prophecy:
“The Dark Lord lies alone and friendless, abandoned by his followers. His servant has been chained these twelve years. Tonight, before midnight... the servant will break free and set out to rejoin his master. The Dark Lord will rise again with his servant’s aid, greater and more terrible than ever he was. Tonight... before midnight... the servant... will set out... to rejoin... his master...”
I was saying that, if you assume we aren't hearing the entire first prophecy based on the "..." between lines, then you have to assume the same with the second. But we know we heard the entire second prophecy because Harry was sitting right in front of her when she went into the trance and when she came out of it. So, if something is being omitted, it is being done by an unconscious Trewlany and not Dumbledore, which I find highly unlikely.
Here's the first prophecy, by the way, so you can compare the punctuation:
“The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches.... Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equil, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives.... The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies....”
EDIT: You know, Gina, strangely enough, the only part of that theory I really found interesting was the question about if either of them was truely alive. Weird, I know, but why is it that Harry keeps saying that he doesn't know how/why he survived that night that the AK backfired but he knows that his mother's love saved him? Does he not want others to know or is that JKR's way of hinting that that's not the full reason he's alive?
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Tomoé - Mar 30, 2004 4:30 am (#355 of 383)
Back in business
In JKR's last chat :
Josh: Right at the beginning, when Voldemort tried to kill Harry, how did Voldemort and Harry both survive?
JK Rowling replies -> That is the crucial and central question and if I answered it there would be hardly any point writing books six and seven... so I won't!
It sounds like there something tricky. Is Voldemort alive? Certainly not, he survive a AK after all. Is Harry alive? You made me doubt it Sarah.
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FCBarca - Mar 30, 2004 4:32 am (#356 of 383)
S.E Jones, you said:
"I don't think the fact that the Prophecy doesn't clearly hold the information on how to kill Harry is a good argument for Dumbledore leaving something out."
So I said:
"S.E. Jones, I believe it is a good argument, just maybe not a correct one."
I was saying I believe it is a good argument, but it may not be correct (that Dumbledore had left something out.) I was half-agreeing with you.
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Catherine - Mar 30, 2004 5:43 am (#357 of 383)
Canon Seeker
S.E. Jones--I like that you raise the question "Is Harry alive?"
I posed this to my husband before OotP came out, and he laughed at it. It has merit, though. Here's what made me think of it:
Remember in GoF when Trelawney is predicting Harry's demise for the zillionith time, and Harry is shrugging it off? Ron jokes that if Harry had died all the times that Trewlawney predicted, Harry would be "sort of a super concentrated ghost."
That phrase has always stuck with me. Ron can be right when he makes jokes!
I can't say that I believe this theory, but I'm glad that I'm not a complete "Luna"tic for having the thought.
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Gina R Snape - Mar 30, 2004 9:08 am (#358 of 383)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Harry not fully alive? Hmmmmmm. This raises possibilities my feeble little mind can't fully comprehend. But after reading that JKR quote, you have got me wondering!
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Padfoot - Mar 30, 2004 10:52 am (#359 of 383)
If Harry is not alive, then is he a ghost? He looks different than Sir Nick, and he runs into things. So he must have a solid body. The Dursley's would love to know they had a dead nephew "living" at their house. I just don't buy it. Now can a wizard be partially alive? I'm not even sure what that would be.
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Hogs Head - Mar 30, 2004 1:10 pm (#360 of 383)
Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Hmmm. So, in that "not alive" theory, maybe the original AK curse which Voldemort unleashed on the infant Harry will eventually kill one of them -- Harry or Voldemort. So then it could be stored up in Harry's scar, waiting to zap one (of them in the end, and just awaiting some deciding factor that will direct it towards or away from one or the other. I'll think about that, but I'm not ready to buy it.
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S.E. Jones - Mar 30, 2004 7:22 pm (#361 of 383)
Let it snow!
Interesting, Hog. There does seem to be some magic held in Harry's scar and he certainly feels it. When I read your post I was thinking of the scene in PS where Quirrell touches Harry and both Harry and Quirrell are in pain: ...and Quirrell lunged, knocking Harry clean off his feet, landing on top of him, both hands around Harry's neck --- Harry's scar was almost blinding him with pain, yet he could see Quirrell howling in agony. (PS, ch 17, pg294, US). Now we know Lily's protection had something to do with why Quirrell (who had Voldemort sticking out of his head) felt pain when he touched Harry, but why did Harry feel pain? Even in the graveyard in GoF, after Voldemort had removed Lily's protection, Harry feels pain when Voldemort touches him: Harry felt the cold tip of the long white finger touch him, and thought his head would burst with pain. (GoF, ch33, US). So, is there some of the magic from the AK left in his scar? Could that be what is used to finally kill one of them? Dumbledore does mention that the strain of holding on to Quirrell nearly killed Harry in PS, yet, according to the Prophecy, only Voldemort (who was in Quirrell at the time) can kill Harry (admittedly, though, she may not have had the Prophecy written out, word-per-word, at the time)....
Also, in her World Day chat, JKR said:
Cathedral: Don't want to rune the ending, but will we be finding out more about the significance of the shape of Harry's scar in future books?
JK Rowling replies -> The shape is not the most significant aspect of that scar, and that's all I'm going to say!
Was she referring to the connection between Harry and Voldemort or something else?
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Hogs Head - Mar 31, 2004 4:47 pm (#362 of 383)
Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
Just one follow up thought on S.E. Jones's follow up thought -- I'm not convinced that Voldemort "removed" Lily's protection in the graveyard scene. The persistence of that protection could explain the continuation of the pain at Voldemort's touch. Moreover, since Voldemort does not strike Harry (or doesn't succeed in striking Harry -- perhaps there is a difference) in the MoM battle at the end of OoP, but instead tries to bait Dumbledore into doing so, I'm not sure that Voldemort is yet convinced (or portrayed as being convinced) that such protection is gone.
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Prefect Marcus - Mar 31, 2004 5:14 pm (#363 of 383)
"Anyone can cook"
Actually, I think Voldie simply chose to concentrate of Dumbledore because Dumbledore was the greater threat. The only time good ol' Lord Thingey is going to attack Harry directly is when there is no Dumbledore to worry about.
Mark
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prof sprout - Apr 9, 2004 9:32 am (#364 of 383)
I definitely think it Harry and not Neville, because if it was the first book would be titled "Neville Longbottom and the Source of the Lost Toad."
I'm sorry Tim has rubbed off on me. And when I thought of that I just wanted to include it somewhere. I thought the prophecy thread was a good place.
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Denise P. - Apr 14, 2004 6:21 am (#365 of 383)
Ravenclaw Pony
This is NOT my post, it was orginally posted by:
How does knowledge of the phrophecy effect Harry and friends?
DA Member - Apr 13, 2004 10:22 pm
I realize that finding out that Harry must kill or be killed is going to be traumatic for all involved, but I can't help thinking that the meer knowledge of the prophecy will play a huge role in character development. After reading OoP, the question I had was how does Harry tell Ron and Hermione? Given the chain of events that concluded OoP, Harry has got alot of issues to deal with. I know there has been alot of speculation about the fulfillment of the prophecy, but I'm more interested in what happens between now and, well, the end.
Towards the end of Oop, I seem to remember something alluding to the fact Harry wasn't any more afraid of Voldamort now than he was before knowledge of the prophecy. Harry has to deal with knowing it is in large part his fault that Sirius is dead, and that he was responsible for the near death of his DA friends, for what turned out to be a trick. I believe that Harry will begin to feel a sort of responsibility to protect his friends, and I wonder if in book 6 we don't see Harry become more of a loner. How does Harry tell Ron and Hermione that he must eventually kill or be killed? How does that revalation affect the trio?
Given the gravity of the prophecy, and the sense of finallity that it suggests, how will Ron and Hermione treat Harry? Will he tell them prior to the school year, or will it be a end of term suprise? I certainly have my own theories, but I was curious how others felt.
I apologize if this has been covered previously, I looked for it for quite awhile before posting, I hope this is ok, as it is my first post. I'm looking forward to seeing others thoughts.
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popkin - May 11, 2004 8:34 am (#366 of 383)
mother
Denise, I love your family photo. Everyone looks great in it.
In the March 4 interview, JKR said that OotP was Harry's break down year, and that he will be much more mature in the next two books. For that reason, I think he will be mature enough to realize he needs his friends now more than ever, and will tell them about the prophecy early on in book six so they can help him to think through the possibilities. I think they will grow closer as friends, but they will develop other friendships as well. The whole crowd that went to the DOM will work together through the rest of the series.
Back to the prophecy.... Some were discussing the possibility that Harry was actually killed by the AK curse, and is now a "super concentrated ghost" as joked about by Ron. I'm sure that is not what happened since a ghost, concentrated or not, would not grow up, but would remain the same age he was the day he died.
I think at some point we are all going to think that Harry has died at Voldemort's hand, Voldemort included, but he will actually be under the influence of the draught of the living dead (that Snape mentions in his first potions lesson).
“The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches.... Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives.... The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies....”
And, I think that "the other" could actually turn out to be Wormtail, who will have to make a choice about which wizard he is going to kill with his silver hand - and he will choose to kill Voldemort. And, since "neither can live while the other survives", Wormtail will die in the struggle, too.
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Tomoé - May 11, 2004 11:06 am (#367 of 383)
Back in business
Or maybe Harry will be killed with the Avada Kedavra curse, but some of his muggle-born friends will have the sense to try CPR (CardioPulmonary Resuscitation) on him and call an ambulance. They will then discover AK only last a day. ^_^
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I show not your face but your hearts desire - May 17, 2004 12:03 pm (#368 of 383)
I searched and couldn't find anything on this (point the way if you know --->) but do you think there's any significance in the fact that some of the prophecies in the halls were glowing, and others weren't. The one Harry picked up was glowing, so do you think that all of the orbs that were glowing held a prophecy about all present(HRH, Ginny,Neville, Luna) or what? Any idea's? :-)
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haymoni - May 17, 2004 12:29 pm (#369 of 383)
Maybe the other prophecies had already been fulfilled.
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Ozymandias - May 17, 2004 7:32 pm (#370 of 383)
Nothing beside remains...
This has been nagging at me for a while:
We know that one of the major themes of HP is choices, and that it directly affects Harry (his choice not to be in Slytherin). The existence of a prophecy seems to go directly against this. My thought is, since Harry knows about the prophecy now, it is void. It seems that now that he knows what the prophecy is he can choose whether to take the path he has been fated to or to try something else. This could explain why it was kept secret, even by the Order, since the prophecy definitely asserts that Harry is capable of getting rid of Lord Thingy, and if it were to become void, they could be facing a much more difficult battle. (Thus, Harry is the weapon that the Order was talking about.)
Any thoughts?
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Prefect Marcus - May 17, 2004 7:39 pm (#371 of 383)
"Anyone can cook"
Well, the prophesy is doubled-edged. Either Voldemort will kill Harry or Harry will kill Voldemort. Now Harry can choose not fight him, so Voldemort will kill him. Or he can choose to fight him so Harry has a chance of killing him instead.
Harry's freedom of choice is still intact.
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Hogs Head - May 25, 2004 8:49 pm (#372 of 383)
Premium Pork But Not Premium HP Member Anymore - Wah!
I also posted this on the Neville thread.
Perhaps someone else has noticed this before, but I have not. We know for certain that Harry did not hear the prophecy when it broke at the MoM battle (he heard a replay or partial replay of it later from Dumbledore's pensieve). However, although I personally doubt that he did, Neville may have heard the prophecy when the sphere broke. The text does not rule that out with certainty. The sequence is:
1. Harry tugs on Neville's robes to help him up (OoP, ch. 35, p. 804, U.S. 1st ed.); 2. Neville's robes tear and the sphere drops from his pocket; 3. Neville's "floundering feet kicked it"; 4. The sphere "flew some ten feet to their right and smashed on the step beneath them"; 5. Harry and Neville "both . . . stare at the place where it had broken"; 6. A "pearly-white figure with hugely magnified eyes" rises in to the air "unnoticed by any but them"; (id., at p. 805); 7. "Harry could see its mouth moving, but in all the crashes and screams and yells surrounding them, not one word of the prophecy could he [i.e., Harry] hear."
While it is logical to assume that Neville, also ten feet away and also surrounded by the same noises, likewise could not hear it, we do not know that to be a fact.
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Catherine - May 26, 2004 5:18 am (#373 of 383)
Canon Seeker
Interesting, Hogs Head. I had not even considered that possibility.
Neville did not volunteer in the hospital wing that he had heard the prophecy when it broke. But Harry didn't volunteer this information, either. So that doesn't prove anything.
I have assumed that Neville did not hear the prophecy, as he was so horrified when it broke: "I'b so sorry, Harry, I didn'd bean do--"
His phrase here makes me think that he is apologizing for the smashing of the prophecy, not its contents. Neville was not exactly in a position to listen to the propechy--his legs were flailing, and there was a huge amount of noise.
I noticed that Neville was the one who told the other students that the prophecy had smashed. We know that Neville is quite good at keeping secrets, but I keep thinking that if Neville had heard the prophecy over the din of the fight, then he might have assumed that Harry heard it also, and said something about it, at least to Harry. One could argue that Sirius's death and the other injured students may have distracted him from doing so, however.
Right now I think that Neville has not heard the prophecy in its entirety. It would be interesting if he had heard part of it, as the spy did in the Hogs Head, and begins to think that he, Neville, is "supposed" to vanquish Voldemort.
Lots to think about with this idea, Hogs Head.
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S.E. Jones - May 27, 2004 3:13 am (#374 of 383)
Let it snow!
Okay, we speculated on just why Voldemort didn't die when his AK rebounded the first time and assumed, as he did, that it was all the precautions against death that he took, but what if it wasn't. What if the reason he didn't die is because Harry didn't kill him? The prophecy says that Harry is the only one who has the ability to vanquish him but Harry wasn't the one that caused the AK to rebound, Lily's sacrifice did. Could Harry have then survived the backlash of magic/energy/whatever that caused the house to explode (something happened to the house because it's in ruins when Hagrid shows up to retrieve Harry) because Voldemort did. In other words, maybe one can't die while the other lives (they sort of keep each other alive) unless the one kills the other. Did I even make any sense here?.....
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mike miller - May 27, 2004 10:50 am (#375 of 383)
aka The Barmy Old Codger
"...maybe one can't die while the other lives (they sort of keep each other alive) unless the one kills the other."
Sarah - I think this idea is behind some of the predictions of Harry's death in book 7. It is a very interesting hypothesis; but, I quickly get into a "chicken or the egg" circular arguement with myself. Was it the prophecy or the precautions, was the prophecy worded the way it was because of the precautions? See what I mean.
I hope JKR will give us a more staight forward explanation.
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S.E. Jones - May 27, 2004 11:11 am (#376 of 383)
Let it snow!
I think the prophecy was worded the way it was because of something else, not the precautions. One's life force would keep the other alive because of the connection that is now forged between them because of the backfired AK, thus no-one can kill one of them except one of them because it would break the connection if one of them did it (well that's my theory anyway)....
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S.E. Jones - May 27, 2004 2:45 pm (#377 of 383)
Let it snow!
Okay, just summarizing to make things more clear:
We know from the books that Lily's sacrifice connected the two of them by causing the AK to backfire. I think the reason Voldemort didn't die is because of this connection. He lived because Harry was alive. The AK couldn't kill him because it was Lily's sacrifice that caused it to rebound, not Harry himself (the prophecy says only Harry and Voldemort can kill each other). The backfiring curse destroyed his body (we can assume no body was found because people said he disappeared not died which would point to a body being found) and so his spirit, still alive, was left without a body, caught between life and death, and that's why he wasn't exactly a ghost. Reciprically, Harry didn't die when the house exploded or fell in (it was in ruins when Hagrid showed up) because Voldemort was then still alive, technically, even though he was bodiless. Thus, one's lifeforce keeps the other alive unless they break the connection by one killing the other. But does that mean they both would die or that only one would? I think this may be why Harry has such a strong connection to death throughout the series and why there was a gleam of triumph in Dumbledore's eye in GoF. I think using Harry's blood may have either strengthened the connection between them that was weakened when Voldemort lost his body, thus ensuring Voldemort can be killed, or providing for a way that Harry can survive once the connection is broken. Also, the entire thing started with love (his mother's love initiated the whole connection) and could be stopped with love (the power that Harry has that Voldemort has not; it could be used to break the connection), so I think it fits.
One more note, the only times we've ever seen Harry nearly die are in books 1 and 2, to my knowledge. In book 1, Voldemort was inside Quirrel, and so it would've been Voldemort that was actually killing him. In book 2, the basilisk's poison is spreading through his body and Fawkes quickly heals him but we don't know what would've happened had he not been healed. His body may have been badly damaged but he not have died (he may have slipped into a coma and needed some serious treatment) or he may have become the same sort of spirit-thing that Voldemort was prior to regaining his body. I don't think he would've died. However, when Tom Riddle Jr (who I think could've possibly killed him) tries to attack him, Harry is able to destroy him first by destroying the diary so we don't know what might have happened there either.
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Rich - May 27, 2004 11:31 pm (#378 of 383)
Families are about love overcoming emotional torture. -Matt Groening
I posted this on the Harry thread after your theory S.E., I thought I'd put it here too. But I just thought of something that doesn't fit.
That's really interesting S.E. Jones.
So you're suggesting that Harry and Voldemort are keeping each other alive, and have been since the night Voldemort killed James and Lily, because of effects of the backfiring AK? And because of this if one kills the other, there is a pretty large chance that the "killer" will die too? Because Harry has the ability to love whereas Voldemort, as far as we know, doesn't that could have an effect on how the story comes to an end, so to speak.
But, would Voldemort know about this? He's tried to kill Harry a few times since the events that occured when Lily and James died. So if he's tried to kill Harry then either he doesn't know about the whole "life-force" issue, or there's no such thing. There's a possibility he doesn't know, because he's underestimated charms before. But I think Voldemort would have learned from his mistakes, wouldn't he? Or is he too arrogant and self-assured?
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S.E. Jones - May 27, 2004 11:35 pm (#379 of 383)
Let it snow!
I don't think he knows. He assumed that it was all the precautions he took against death that kept him from dying before (he says so in the graveyard in GoF, that at least one must've worked) and so would have no reason to ever come up with any other explanation. I think that, if those precautions (which I don't think worked) hadn't been there, then I think he would've tried to come up with other reasons but why fix something if it isn't broken?
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Rich - May 28, 2004 12:20 am (#380 of 383)
Families are about love overcoming emotional torture. -Matt Groening
S.E., have you seen the "Occlumency/a-clue-men-see" theory. A link to it was posted on the "Predictions for Book six and seven" thread. The person who came up with it is a bit hysterical at the thought of discovering "the answer" but it's really interesting (from what I can deduce). It kind of ties in with your theory. Well, not much, but a tiny bit.
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I Am Used Vlad - May 28, 2004 11:49 am (#381 of 383)
I Am Almighty!
I like your theory, S.E. Jones, but disagree with the part about Voldemort surviving because the AK didn't come from Harry. If that were true, the prophesy is not just a prediction of what is to come, but a power in itself that can alter the course of events, and I don't think it is.
In book 6, if Harry is being attacked by DEs, could he just walk out into the open and say "AK me," knowing he wouldn't be killed? Could he, to amuse his friends, jump in front of trains, knowing that somehow the prophesy will miraculously save him? I doubt it.
I don't think the prophecy has any power to save either Harry or Voldemort.
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S.E. Jones - May 28, 2004 12:06 pm (#382 of 383)
Let it snow!
I didn't say the prophecy had any power. I think it only foresaw the event. The AK rebounded off of Lily's love sacrifice, not off of some inherint power in Harry and so it wasn't Harry that caused it to rebound, thus it wasn't Harry, but Lily who caused it to rebound, how does the prophecy have any power to cause this? I don't understand what you're saying.
I also didn't say their bodies couldn't be damaged or destroyed or that their spirits couldn't be displaced. We saw that happen with Voldemort in the first book when his body was either so badly damaged or destroyed that he was forced out of it. I think the same thing would happen if Harry had "jumped in front of a train", he'd become what Voldemort was in PS but not "pass beyond the veil", as it were, or become a ghost.... Did I make a bit more sense there?
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I Am Used Vlad - May 28, 2004 4:16 pm (#383 of 383)
I Am Almighty!
Sorry, I thought you were saying that the reason the rebounded AK didn't kill Voldemort was because Lily's sacrifice, and not Harry, was responsible for it. If this alone had been what you meant, then the existence of the prophecy would have been what kept Voldemort alive, and therefore it would have to have power.
But after re reading your theory, I see that you meant that the rebounded AK caused a connection between the two of them, and that this connection is what kept Voldemort alive, and would also keep Harry alive if anyone but Voldemort tried to kill him. I'll read more carefully in the future before I post.
What I meant in my post is that I think that Harry could be killed by someone other than Voldemort, or if he was foolish enough to do something like throw himself in front of a train, it is just not going to happen. I guess I'm saying that I don't think Harry would survive as a disembodied consciousness the way Voldemort did.
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