Number 12 Grimmauld Place

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Number 12 Grimmauld Place
Dame Peverell - Sep 2, 2005 5:58 pm
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 17, 2005 1:23 pm

The Half Blood Prince left #12 GrimmauldPlace in the background but there are questions and theories about it, its contents, and disposition still floating about.

Does Severus Snape actually "know the Secret" of GrimmauldPlace? Did he ever once come in the front door or did he always arrive by Portkey?

Separately, can we assume that Kreacher came and went by apparition? There was no mention of him coming in the front door as I recall. Wouldn't he have to know the "Secret"? If not, it follows that House Elves are not dissuaded by the use of a Fidelius Charm.

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haymoni - Sep 2, 2005 5:05 pm (#1 of 118)

You can know it, but you can't tell it.

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Madame Librarian - Sep 2, 2005 5:43 pm (#2 of 118)
Edited Sep 2, 2005 6:47 pm

Should we make a list of questions on #12? I'll start:

• Will Harry ever live there?
  
  
• Will he even visit or stay long enough to collect Sirius's things?
  
  
• Will Harry find some diary or letter or other message from Sirius at the house?
  
  
• What important objects might be there? The locket? The motorbike?
  
  
• Will Mrs. Black ever shut up or be unstuck and trashed?
  
  
• Is there a chance it could still function as the Order's HQ?
  
  
• If Harry's not at Hogwarts next year, where does that leave Kreacher? Does he stay at the house if Harry won't have him around?
  
  
• Where's Buckbeak? With Hagrid? (I forget if that got dealt with in HBP.)
  
  
• Is there something important at the house that will play a role in revealing the full story on Regulus/R.A.B.?
  
  
• And, the old enigma--what's the status of that Fidelius Charm on the location now that DD is gone? Is the charm still in effect? Will Lupin or someone put another one on the house?
  

Add more if you think of them.

Ciao. Barb

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T Brightwater - Sep 2, 2005 8:42 pm (#3 of 118)

Buckbeak/Witherwings is with Hagrid; he attacked Snape on his way out of the grounds.

There's a book on wizard genealogy at 12 GP - there may be some useful information in that.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Sep 3, 2005 2:41 am (#4 of 118)

Dame Peverell, mam. In OoP Snape left by the front door. Which suggests floo powder was not an option (though Harry used it to talk with Sirius and Remus). While we have no mention of him arriving, the only mention we have of a portkey is the Weasleys and Harry after Arthur is attacked. This was an emergency situation. Otherwise the door was used. So I think we can presume that Snape came in through the front door having apparated to the building.

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irish flutterby - Sep 3, 2005 5:37 am (#5 of 118)

The question of whether # 12 would be used as the HQ will depend on whether the Order trusts that the Fidelius (new or old) can/will keep Snape from revealing the location. Harry has already stated that they can continue to use it, it has many other magical protections aside from the Fidelius. It is, at the moment, uninhabited but by Kreacher. It seems to remain a logical choice for HQ, in which case, I would imagine that Harry would end up there sooner than later.

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M A Grimmett - Sep 3, 2005 11:18 am (#6 of 118)

I can't see why JKR would have let Sirius will the place to Harry if it wasn't going to be needed in Book 7. Sure, it's nice to have your own place to bring girls to, but the general atmosphere isn't really conducive to making it a home. Not until Mrs Black can be shut up/got rid of, at least. And probably new wallpaper. And carpets. Paint would be good too. Maybe some improved lighting. Maybe Changing Rooms could do something with it. Back to my original thought--if it wasn't going to be used in the future, I think JKR would have let it pass to Bellatrix or tied it up somehow.

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Hogs Head - Sep 3, 2005 11:40 am (#7 of 118)

Barb: Good questions as usual. My worthless thoughts on the matter (pure opinion mind you):

Q: Will Harry ever live there?
A: IT DOESN'T MATTER TO THE PLOT, BUT IF HE EVER DOES, THE PLACE WILL NEED SOME MAJOR REDECORATING!

Q: Will he even visit or stay long enough to collect Sirius's things?
A: I GUESS "YES."

Q: Will Harry find some diary or letter or other message from Sirius at the house?
A: I FURTHER GUESS, "YES."

Q: What important objects might be there? The locket? The motorbike?
A: PROBABLY BOTH AND PERHAPS (I'M GUESSING) A LITTLE MORE.

Q: Will Mrs. Black ever shut up or be unstuck and trashed?
A: I HOPE THE FORMER BUT WOULD SETTLE FOR THE LATTER.

Q: Is there a chance it could still function as the Order's HQ?
A: ALSO DOESN'T MATTER FOR THE PLOT, BUT SNAPE (IN THE "GOOD SNAPE" THEORY, COULD BE HIDING OUT THERE. INDEED, THAT MAY BE WHERE HE AND Harry MEET UP AGAIN. WHAT A SURPRISE THAT WILL BE FOR HARRY. THE SAME MIGHT ALSO BE TRUE OF ALBUS DD IN THE "ALBUS IS STILL ALIVE AND IN HIDING" THEORIES, ALTHOUGH THE HOG'S HEAD INN MAY BE A MORE LOGICAL HIDING PLACE FOR DD IN THAT SCENARIO.

Q: If Harry's not at Hogwarts next year, where does that leave Kreacher? Does he stay at the house if Harry won't have him around?
A: PURE GUESS -- I'LL BET KREACHER AND DOBY SPEND A LOT MORE TIME WITH Harry IN YEAR 7. AND Harry MAY ULTIMATELY "PUNISH" KREACHER AT THE END BY SETTING HIM FREE. THAT WILL PROBABLY KILL KREACHER!

Q: Where's Buckbeak? With Hagrid? (I forget if that got dealt with in HBP.)
A: AS ANSWERED ABOVE BY T BRIGHTWATER.

Q: Is there something important at the house that will play a role in revealing the full story on Regulus/R.A.B.?
A: MY OUIJI BOARD SAYS "YES."

Q: And, the old enigma--what's the status of that Fidelius Charm on the location now that DD is gone? Is the charm still in effect? Will Lupin or someone put another one on the house?
A: I'M STILL PLAYING WITH THE "ALBUS DD IS ALIVE" THEORY, SO WHETHER THE CHARM IS STILL IN EFFECT MAY BE A GREAT CLUE. BUT ONE WE'LL HAVE TO WAIT FOR BOOK 7 TO LEARN ABOUT.

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Dame Peverell - Sep 3, 2005 5:17 pm (#8 of 118)
Edited Sep 3, 2005 6:24 pm

In OoP Snape left by the front door. Which suggests floo powder was not an option (though Harry used it to talk with Sirius and Remus). While we have no mention of him arriving, the only mention we have of a Portkey is the Weasleys and Harry after Arthur is attacked. This was an emergency situation. Otherwise the door was used. So I think we can presume that Snape came in through the front door having apparated to the building... Phelim McIntyre....... Thank you.

What I am trying to establish here are parameters for methods useful in getting around a Fidelius Charm. This is important for #12 GrimmauldPlace and the house in Godric’s Hollow.

I think the fireplace, because of the Floo Network monitoring, would be too risky. It may also not be able to penetrate the charm. I seem to have some nagging memory of the fireplace at #12 being used for someone though. It may be that they can conceal the talking.

Yes on the Portkey. Yes. And triple yes. In this instance, however, we know that the Weasleys and Harry “Knew the Secret” already. It does prove however, that a Portkey can be used in conjunction with the Fidelius Charm.

I don’t want to presume anything about how Snape comes and goes. If he were to always arrive by one of DD’s secret Portkeys and then leave by a Portkey or the front door, then he might not really “Know the Secret” If Snape doesn’t “Know the Secret” DD didn’t really trust him, and THAT would be worth knowing.

We know F&G apparated within the house. I don’t want to presume people are able to apparate into or out of the house, whether they ‘Know the Secret” or not. We have to have canon on it.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Sep 4, 2005 7:44 am (#9 of 118)

Dame Peverll, I see your point. But I'm not sure that it would have been easy to arrange a special portkey.

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azi - Sep 4, 2005 7:50 am (#10 of 118)

Let alone an illegal portkey. They couldn't take Harry to 12GP by portkey because of the risk of detection so I don't see why they could take Snape either. I think it would be much easier to apparate once outside the house.

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Derek Robertson - Sep 4, 2005 8:08 am (#11 of 118)

I think the primary reason JKR left Harry Grimmauld PLace was to tie up the Kreacher ownership issue. I think Harry will visit it at some point, but live there or use it as his home during book 7? Nah.

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Paulus Maximus - Sep 4, 2005 10:16 am (#12 of 118)

There IS some stuff there (or that used to be there) that might prove... enlightening.

Which I guess proves your point, that he might visit it sometime. I can't see him living there unless he was desperate for a place to hide.

Because even without the Fidelius Charm, the house still has "every defense known to wizard-kind" (paraphrasing Sirius in book 5).

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Soul Search - Sep 4, 2005 11:22 am (#13 of 118)

I suggested this on another topic a while ago, but it might be better here.

Previous suggestions are good, but I think the most important things at #12 will be Sirius' mother's portrait, Phineas Nigellus' portrait, and the Black family tree. The Wizarding Geneology book may be a good fourth.

If Harry wanted to know Regulus' middle name, what better source than his mother?

If Harry wanted to learn more about the locket and when Regulus brought it to #12, ask his mother, Phineas, or Kreacher.

Need to find out about founder's heirlooms or trace their line? Check the book or the Black family tree.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Sep 5, 2005 4:00 am (#14 of 118)

Derek - the locket appears from hints Jo Rowling has given to be the Slytherin locket. If this is the case, as many of us believe, then Harry will need to go to number 12 in order to destroy a horcrux. Beyond that Harry may need somewhere to hang out away from Hogwarts and number 12 is a good a place as any.

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CatherineHermiona - Sep 5, 2005 8:28 am (#15 of 118)

What if portkey works/doesn't work on #12 GP depends on who made it. Maybe for portkeys to places that are under a Fidelius charm there are two conditions: "Know the secret" and have a portkey made by the "Keeper of the secret".

Kate

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Dame Peverell - Sep 6, 2005 4:16 am (#16 of 118)

Professor Dumbledore got away with making illegal Portkeys because he made them, and/or they were used in his office, which, like the RoR and houses under the Fidelius Charm, are Unplottable.

It would have been possible to give Snape a "there and back again" Portkey between #12 Grimmauld Place and DDs office. I believe that Portkeys have that limit - you can't keep on using them afterwards. They may also sometimes be "one way" in nature.

I don't know if you have to be the Secret Keeper to make a Portkey, although it would make sense. I would guess that what is important is that you would have to know exactly where you want it to transport you to. That would be very tricky in the case of an Unplottable house.

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Steve Newton - Sep 6, 2005 5:42 am (#17 of 118)

Dumbledore's is not unplottable. It is one of the first things that Harry checks out when he gets the map.

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Dame Peverell - Sep 6, 2005 6:06 am (#18 of 118)

The book says he was pacing his study. It seems to me that on every other occasion his office is referred to as his office. Perhaps he has a study adjoining his office. Additionally, if the office and study are in fact the same room, the office may be Unplottable only from outside Hogwarts. It's also quite possible, that when DD wants to do something unseen by the MoM, he makes his office Unplottable for a short period of time.

Good point tho. I will have to back up and revisit the chain of logic which caused me to assume his office is Unplottable.

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Steve Newton - Sep 6, 2005 7:32 am (#19 of 118)

I left out the word 'office.' It should say 'Dumbledore's office.' I'll have to reread the section.

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T Brightwater - Sep 6, 2005 11:30 am (#20 of 118)

I don't think DD's office/study/whatever is Unplottable, but since it's in Hogwarts you can't Apparate into or out of it. DD may have had some way of guarding it against portkeys made by anyone other than him.

All the people who went to 12GP via the portkey had been there before, so there was no breach of the Fidelius Charm.

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Dame Peverell - Sep 6, 2005 12:55 pm (#21 of 118)

What I'm thinking is that perhaps if you didn't "Know the Secret", but if you grabbed the Portkey and went to #12, and then left by the front door, you could turn around and not see the house. You would still not "Know the Secret"

Nobody knows which magic takes precedence here. The Portkeys ability to transport may be greater than the Fidelius Charms to deter. Simple apparition would bounce off the charm but a Portkey is more like a wormhole. Maybe. I don't know. If the fact is that Snape never enters #12 by the front door, we might be able to guess how the Portkey is operating and if he is really all that trusted by DD.

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irish flutterby - Sep 12, 2005 6:27 am (#22 of 118)

It would have been possible to give Snape a “there and back again" Portkey between #12 Grimmauld Place and DDs office. I believe that Portkeys have that limit - you can't keep on using them afterwards. They may also sometimes be "one way" in nature."

I'm not sure which way you're going with this, but yes, portkeys can be used as you say for "there and back again" cases. The Triwizard Cup was one of those.

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Solitaire - Jan 22, 2006 8:20 pm (#23 of 118)

The Triwizard Cup, I believe, had more than one Portus! spell cast on it. The first would have been cast by Dumbledore to take the winner to where Dumbledore and the judges were waiting. Fake Moody/Barty Jr. then put a second spell on it to take it to the graveyard first. Apparently, the most recent spell is the first to activate.

Solitaire

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Choices - Jan 23, 2006 9:57 am (#24 of 118)

You're right Solitaire. I don't think we have seen an instance of a "round trip" portkey. The one you speak of did have two spells on it - one to take the winner to the graveyard and one to take the winner to the winner's circle. All the other portkeys we have seen took the traveler to a certain destination and their return trip was by another mode of transportation.

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Good Evans - Jan 25, 2006 2:01 am (#25 of 118)

good observation Soli - I believe you must be right

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bigearl - Feb 7, 2006 1:39 pm (#26 of 118)

Dumbledore was the 'secret keeper' for #12 Grimmauld Place,

Now that he is dead, can no one (except those he has already told) find it? (perhaps this will be a safe haven for Harry)

or, is the charm broken?

what about those who knew of it's location in past, what is to stop them from going there, perhaps Bellatrix visited #12 as a youth before she went to Azkaban (she would be the owner, if Sirius had not left it to Harry)

the Locket is an obvious choice, but the "crystal bottle with a large opal set into the stopper, full of what looked like blood" has equally intrigued me (perhaps another red herring)

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Soul Search - Feb 7, 2006 5:17 pm (#27 of 118)

bigearl, the crystal bottle full of blood intrigued me, as well.

My thoughts were that Regulus had started to gather what he would need to destroy the locket horcrux. So, the items in the cabinet with the locket may well be just the things Harry will need. He may even find instructions at #12. Unfortunately, didn't all that stuff get tossed?

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Choices - Feb 7, 2006 6:25 pm (#28 of 118)

The crystal bottle that appeared to be full of blood at 12 Grimmauld Place reminds me of what Slughorn had - it was a crystal bottle that he kept his dragon's blood in that he spattered on the wall when Dumbledore and Harry visited him.

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Soul Search - Feb 8, 2006 7:41 am (#29 of 118)

So, what are the "Twelve Uses of Dragon's Blood" that Dumbledore is famous for discovering. It’s on his frog card.

Is one use of dragon's blood freeing a soul-bit from a horcrux?

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Choices - Feb 8, 2006 11:02 am (#30 of 118)

I don't think there is any canon evidence for what all of the 12 uses are.

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Netherlandic - Feb 8, 2006 3:25 pm (#31 of 118)

Wasn't JKR asked about the 12 uses for dragon's blood and she wouldn't answer?? Destroying a horcrux sounds as a good use (and theory) for the dragon blood.

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Mrs Brisbee - Feb 8, 2006 5:47 pm (#32 of 118)

But didn't the kids learn about the twelve uses of dragon blood in school? If one of them was "Destroys Horcruxes!", then more people would have to know what Horcruxes were. I mean, you couldn't list something like that on a chocolate frog card and then expect the children to not ask questions.

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Choices - Feb 8, 2006 7:38 pm (#33 of 118)

For some reason I am remembering that one of the uses for dragon's blood (maybe the only one we have been told about) is as an oven cleaner. Did I imagine that or did JKR say it in an interview or something? It's terrible to get old and suffer from wrackspurt. LOL

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Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 8, 2006 8:33 pm (#34 of 118)

Choices, JKR said one of the uses was as oven cleaner in an interview with the San Francisco Chronicle conducted in October of 1999.

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haymoni - Feb 9, 2006 5:46 am (#35 of 118)

Why would a witch/wizard need oven cleaner???

Wouldn't "Scourgify" take care of that?

Do they even use ovens?

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Esther Rose - Feb 9, 2006 6:56 am (#36 of 118)

Haymoni, I think they would go to the same store as the Keebler Elves to get their stoves. (You know those freed House Elves that now have a very lucrative business selling baked goods. Rivals to the Rice Krispy brothers.)

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bigearl - Feb 13, 2006 9:06 am (#37 of 118)

To open Slytherin's locket, I'd suggest speaking Parsel-tongue to it.

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Choices - Feb 13, 2006 9:27 am (#38 of 118)

Ohhh, good thinking bigearl. Perhaps it works like the door to the COS and perhaps Regulus did try to destroy it, but because he didn't speak Parseltongue, he wasn't able to get it open.

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Solitaire - Feb 15, 2006 6:16 pm (#39 of 118)

Very interesting suggestion, bigearl! I like it, too!

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Madam Pince - Feb 19, 2006 8:15 am (#40 of 118)

Yes, JKR did say that one of the uses of dragon's blood was as an oven cleaner, but she also refused to name all of the uses. That's a good idea that it has something to do with destroying horcruxes.

Q: What are the 12 uses for dragon's blood? -- Kelsey Biggar, age 9

A: I have a very good reason for not telling you -- the movie script writer wants me to give him that information for the film. But I can say that the 12th use is oven cleaner.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 22, 2006 12:25 am (#41 of 118)

A question: why did Orion Black feel the need to fortify 12GP so heavily?

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ex-FAHgeek - Feb 22, 2006 5:37 am (#42 of 118)

Probably because the house was in an area filled with filthy little Muggles.

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Lilly P - Feb 26, 2006 11:07 am (#43 of 118)

With all of the "dark" objects found in 12GP, particularly in the cabinets with the heavy locket, do you think one or two of the Blacks could have gone to Durmstrang? Maybe a semester exchange or something like that? it doesn’t seem like they would learn all of the dark arts at Hogwarts. Durmstrang has been described to freely teach dark arts and actually promote their use.

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Solitaire - Feb 26, 2006 6:19 pm (#44 of 118)

Didn't Slughorn say that all of the Blacks, save Sirius, had been in Slytherin House? Of course, he may just have been talking about those who attended during his tenure there. It would make sense, however, for all of the Blacks to have attended Hogwarts, given that Phineas Nigellus Black was a Slytherin himself and, later, Headmaster of Hogwarts back in the 1800s, according to the Lexicon.

Solitaire

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Netherlandic - Feb 27, 2006 6:34 am (#45 of 118)

But a semester exchange is possible. Nice thought, Lilly P.

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Choices - Feb 27, 2006 1:30 pm (#46 of 118)

My guess would be that knowledge of the dark arts has been handed down generation to generation in the family.

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bigearl - Feb 28, 2006 2:17 pm (#47 of 118)

I found this question and answer online.

“If we ever see Sirius again, what form will he be in?” JK Rowling replies, "I couldn't possibly answer that for fear of incriminating myself."

Maybe Sirius performed a spell when he wrote out his Will, that would place a talking portrait of himself on the wall at #12 GP, to give Harry advice.

JKR also hinted that Sirius's motorcycle may turn up again. Will it turn up at #12 or maybe Godric's Hollow.

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haymoni - Mar 1, 2006 8:11 am (#48 of 118)

In the Melissa/Emerson interview she said that the mirror was off the table - i.e. she wouldn't talk about the mirror that Sirius gave Harry.

I always thought the mirror would connect us to Sirius and that was why she wouldn't talk about either one.

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bigearl - Mar 1, 2006 8:52 am (#49 of 118)

But, Harry tried to use the mirror after Sirius' death, when it didn't work he broke it. I guess he could have used "reparo" on it.

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Derek Robertson - Mar 9, 2006 11:08 am (#50 of 118)

bigearl, I don't know if a reparo spell would replace the magical properties within the mirror. Look at all the work Draco seemed to have to do to get the Vanishing cabinet to work again.

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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 17, 2006 11:04 am (#51 of 118)

If reparo was that easy, someone would have "reparo-ed" Harry's destroyed broom, wouldn't they? There must be something else. Maybe someone else has a mirror like that? Harry might find the one Sirius had and make a connection with someone else, if he now owns Grimmauld Place, and Sirius didn't have the mirror on him when he went through the veil.

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irish flutterby - Mar 17, 2006 4:00 pm (#52 of 118)

”If we ever see Sirius again, what form will he be in?” JK Rowling replies, "I couldn't possibly answer that for fear of incriminating myself."

The fact that she didn't give a flat out answer of "you won't see Sirius again." Gives me hope. Of course, she could just be leading us, but didn't she give us an out-right "Regulus is dead?"

My guess would be that knowledge of the dark arts has been handed down generation to generation in the family.

It appears that it was, as it was passed down in the Slytherin family.

As far as the dragon's blood, Horcruxes are a forbidden subject at Hogwarts, but it may be that they were told something very vague, such as, "The eighth use of dragons blood is the destruction of certain dark objects." I'm sure such a vague statement would leave some students curious, but as they learned the uses relatively early on in their schooling (didn't they), it may have been squelched with a general response of "We do not discuss dark objects in this class. Such topics are for seventh year classes." or something similar. Maybe a stretch, but possible.

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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 18, 2006 6:46 am (#53 of 118)

There is obviously REAL dragon's blood in the Potterverse, but there is also an herb called Dragon's Blood that is often used to make incense.

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irish flutterby - Mar 18, 2006 9:13 am (#54 of 118)

Amusing. Maybe you could smoke a soul-bit out of a Horcrux.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Mar 18, 2006 5:40 pm (#55 of 118)

I think that Hermione's knowledge of the 12 uses of Dragon's blood, (of the trio) will come into play in a big way. Maybe it will come up while they are at #12. One of those "ARE YOU A WITCH OR NOT?" moments.

Another "trinket" at #12 is worrisome. "There was a musical box that emitted a faintly sinister, tinkling tune when wound, and they all found themselves becoming curiously weak and sleepy, until Ginny had the sense to slam the lid shut;". Makes me wonder if that was one of the spells protecting a Horcrux. Maybe the locket is a red herring? Mayhap an artifact of Ravenclaw? Makes me wonder since Ginny had sense enough to shut it that maybe she, hmm, how to say this, picked up on a "vibe", gut feeling, etc.? A trace of her previous encounter with LV mayhap?

...toddles off to #12 Grimmauld Place to explore some more...

After editing...done for now.

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John Bumbledore - Mar 29, 2006 12:30 pm (#56 of 118)

So, who cast the Secret Keeper spell for the Headquarters of the Order? If Dumbledore cast the spell, then number 12 Grimmauld Place may again be visible! Just as the petrificus totalus spell on Harry was released upon DD's death.

Jo's answer to the FAQ Poll has been bothering me ever since I read it. Now I believe I understand why she used Peter for her example!

I made a more detailed post about this on the JK Rowling Official Site - Post #856 of that thread.

<)B^D˜ John.Bumbledore

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Solitaire - Mar 29, 2006 12:51 pm (#57 of 118)

John, I think there were unplottable spells on the house even before the Order took it over. But I admit, I've wondered about it, too, since Dumbledore died. I'm sure the Order had a back-up plan, in the event that Dumbledore died, because his injury must have alerted others that he was losing some strength. Snape certainly knew ... and if he is a loyal Order member (as many believe he still is), then he may have encouraged Dumbledore to make other plans.

The scary thing is that Snape may have been made the new Secret Keeper for the Order. If this is so--and if he turns out to have been a DE all along--then 12GP will become a deathtrap. **shivering**

Solitaire

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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 29, 2006 1:09 pm (#58 of 118)

John, Albus Dumbledore is the Secret Keeper of the Order of the Phoenix this information is given OotP chapter six.

“... Dumbledore's the secret Keeper of the Order, you know - nobody can find headquarters unless he tells them personally where it is - that note Moody showed you last night was from Dumbledore... (OotP large print edition page 170)”

“When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else.”

The nature of J.K. Rowling's response seems to indicate that despite Dumbledore's death, the Fidelus Charm cast on 12 GP remains in place unlike other spells which seem to cease upon the death of the caster.

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Mattew Bates - Mar 29, 2006 2:07 pm (#59 of 118)

John, I believe there are enchantments that extend beyond the caster's death, like the unplottable spells that Solitaire mentioned. While it has never been clarified whether or not the Secret Keeper must also be the caster of the Fidelus charm, Jo's answer clarified (to me, at least) that a Fidelus charm has a permanence that lasts beyond death.

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Die Zimtzicke - Mar 29, 2006 5:50 pm (#60 of 118)

Are we trying to figure out who CAST the secret keeper spell, or who WAS the secret keeper for Grimmauld Place? If the former, just because Dumbledore was the secret keeper does not mean he didn't get someone else to cast the spell itself.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Mar 30, 2006 4:25 am (#61 of 118)

We know the person who is made the secret keeper takes the secret with them to the grave (or in Dumbledore's case, the tomb) but we don't know yet that this is the case with the spell caster. The filedlius charm could cease to operate if the caster is killed. Jo never answered this aspect of the charm on her website.

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Solitaire - Mar 30, 2006 6:58 am (#62 of 118)

Nathan, my question is whether they will need a new Secret Keeper. If Dumbledore is dead, he can't possibly reveal the HQ to anyone new who might be joining the Order and need to know its whereabouts. Also, I happen to believe any place that needs to be hidden under a Fidelius Charm surely should not have its locale written down (to possibly fall into the wrong hands)--unless the note is destroyed immediately, like Moody did with the note that was shown to Harry. This would seem to make a new SK necessary ... wouldn't it? (Forgive me if I am being dense here.)

Solitaire

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Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 30, 2006 9:48 am (#63 of 118)

Solitaire, I was responding to John's post John.Bumbledore, "+ Number 12 Grimmauld Place" #56, 29 Mar 2006 12:30 pm .

Yes, I would imagine a new Secret Keeper is necessary. I believe that in addition to being the Secret Keeper of the Order originally I believe that Dumbledore was the caster of the Fidelus Charm over 12 GP.

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The One - Mar 30, 2006 10:20 am (#64 of 118)

This would seem to make a new SK necessary ... wouldn't it?

Yes it would. But we still do not know if it is possible.

If the old spell is not lifted, no one can tell any new persons that information. We do not know if it is possible for the caster or the secret keeper to lift the charm, we do not know if making a new secret keeper lifts the charm on the old one, we do not know if the death of the caster lifts the charm and we do not know who the caster is.

My guess is that No. 12 GP has no longer any role to play as a HQ. Its role is as a possible location for a Horcrux. And that information is not protected by the charm.

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haymoni - Apr 2, 2006 5:25 pm (#65 of 118)

I saw a blurb on TLC where someone has written an essay - which I did not read - regarding the problem of Dumbledore revealing #12 to the Dursleys.

I re-read the chapter when Dumbledore comes to #4 -

“Our problem,” he continued to Harry, as if there had been no interruption, "is that Sirius also left you Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place."

“He's been left a house?” said Uncle Vernon greedily, his small eyes narrowing, but nobody answered him.

“You can keep using it as headquarters,” said Harry. "I don't care"....

Then Dumbledore brings Kreacher into the house.

“You would prefer him to pass into the ownership of Bellatrix Lestrange? Bearing mind that he has lived at the headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix for the past year?”

Now - Dumbledore doesn't actually say "The headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix is at #12 Grimmauld Place." and he doesn't say that #12 is in London, but he did say enough that the Dursleys, particularly Petunia would be able to remember it.

Now what could this mean?

If Dumbledore is still alive, Pet could not reveal the info.

If Dumbledore is dead and the Charm has been lifted, she could tell it to someone else. Or could be forced to tell it to someone else.

If Harry leaves #4 unscathed, but DEs come after the Dursleys for what they might know, there could be a problem with hanging around #12 for very long.

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TheSaint - Apr 2, 2006 9:03 pm (#66 of 118)

But...the Dursleys would not be able to tell. Being the secret keeper.. they would be able to see number 12 but could not tell others. Perhaps this is a foreshadow of the attack on Privet we thought would occur. The Dursleys would need a new place to live...I think number 12 should just about serve them right!

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Solitaire - Apr 2, 2006 10:54 pm (#67 of 118)

If a second Portus charm could be put on the Triwizard Cup, why couldn't a second Fidelius Charm be put on 12GP?

I believe there was probably a Fidelius Charm on 12GP when the senior Blacks were living there, though heaven knows who that Secret Keeper would have been. Didn't Jo say the secret remained as it was at the time of the death of the Secret Keeper? If this is so--and any original secret on GP was intact--then Dumbledore simply cast a new spell on the premises. Why couldn't someone cast another one, now that Dumbledore is gone? Just wondering ...

TheSaint, your point about the Dursleys concerns me. I wonder if the Secret keeper rules apply to Muggles ... Hm.

Solitaire

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TheSaint - Apr 3, 2006 4:42 pm (#68 of 118)

I believe the Black's made the place unplottable...not necessarily a secret. I remember something about muggle salesman..?

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Herm oh ninny - Apr 4, 2006 8:59 pm (#69 of 118)
Edited Apr 4, 2006 10:00 pm

I'm not sure if this has been brought up already, but has anyone considered the fact that the Dursleys all heard Dumbledore say that 12 Grimmauld Place is the secret headquarters? Does this mean that they can now go there if they wish? (if for some reason Harry brings them there)

(the search option wasn't working for some reason so I couldn't check to see if this has been discussed already. Sorry if it's a repeat!)

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Solitaire - Apr 9, 2006 4:05 pm (#70 of 118)

Herm, the idea was brought up a few posts back. That was the subject of my comment above, to TheSaint. I'm not sure if it has been discussed in depth or not ... but it is worth considering, I think.

Solitaire

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Phelim Mcintyre - Apr 10, 2006 12:28 am (#71 of 118)

But wouldn't the other, anti-muggle charms affect the Dursley's? So Vernon and family knowing where the HQ is probably isn't much of a security risk. After all, none of them are the secret keeper so they can't spill the beans.

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Solitaire - Apr 12, 2006 12:42 pm (#72 of 118)

Phelim, that is what I wondered ... would the SK business affect the Dursleys, since they are Muggles? In other words, does magic affect Muggles in the same way it does Wizards? If it doesn't, then what would prevent them from disclosing to someone the 12 Grimmauld Place location to someone, either deliberately or inadvertently? Just wondering ...

Solitaire

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Herm oh ninny - Apr 13, 2006 9:21 am (#73 of 118)

Thanks Solitaire I would think that only the secret keeper can reveal the location. I think that the spell affects everyone the same, muggle or not. But I was wondering if Harry could now bring the Dursleys to the headquarters, say to hide them from Voldy.

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Choices - Apr 13, 2006 9:36 am (#74 of 118)

Yes, wizards were able to put spells on the location of the Quidditch World Cup and also on Hogwarts to ward off Muggles - so the magic spells do work on Muggles.

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TheSaint - Apr 13, 2006 2:25 pm (#75 of 118)

If there were an attack at Privet and Harry had to move them to Grimmauld..would that not be a hoot! Filthy, magical house..and send Kreacher back to take care of them. Sweet Revenge.

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Solitaire - Apr 13, 2006 7:08 pm (#76 of 118)

We know spells work on Muggles ... but do they work the same way as they do on Wizards? And it is possible that different spells are used to conceal things from Muggles?

Solitaire

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Phelim Mcintyre - Apr 14, 2006 3:07 am (#77 of 118)

Well portkeys have to be something that Muggles will ignore, like litter, so they don't accidently pick them up. So a portkey looks as if it will work on Muggles. What happens to a poor road cleaner who picks up a portkey is not mentioned though. So some appear to work on Muggles in the same way they do Wizards and Witches.

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Soul Search - Apr 14, 2006 5:42 am (#78 of 118)

TheSaint, actually, there may be something to your suggestion that the storyline will include the Dursleys going to #12 Grimmauld Place.

I have wondered why Dumbledore chose to have his initial discussion with Harry in front of the Dursleys. There was no reason for them to know most of what he said:

Sirius was dead.

Harry inherited #12 Grimmauld Place.

#12 Grimmauld Place was the headquarters for the Order of the Phoenix.

Harry inherited Kreacher, who hated Harry, preferred Bellatrix, was a risk to the Order, and was sent to Hogwarts.

Dumbledore also chastised the Dursleys for their treatment of Harry, established that Harry would return to #4 Privet Drive at least one more time, and that the protections on #4 would end on Harry's seventeenth birthday, in July of the following year.

Something was being set up, and it could very well be that Harry has to escape #4 Privet Drive, and take the Dursleys to #12 Grimmauld Place for their own protection. I agree, the Dursleys at #12 could be a lot of fun for we readers. The Dursleys have received some sort of come-up-pance in each book; this would be the best yet.

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Madame Pomfrey - Apr 20, 2006 6:05 am (#79 of 118)
Edited Apr 20, 2006 7:05 am

Since Orion Black put" every security measure known to wizard-kind on it .It's unplottable, so muggles could never come and call" and because Dumbledore added his protection I would think the Dursley's could never find Grimmauld Place.But,since Dumbledore did mention #12 Grimmauld in front of them they could possibly enter with Harry.As awful as the Dursley's have been to Harry I know he would still hide them,if necessary,from the DE (he has this saving people thing) and I would love to see Petunia at war with Mrs.Black.

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haymoni - Apr 20, 2006 6:08 am (#80 of 118)

Seeing the Dursleys in her home may make Mama Black come unglued!!!

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Steve Newton - Apr 20, 2006 6:18 am (#81 of 118)

So that's how they can get her picture off of the wall.

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John Bumbledore - Apr 20, 2006 8:56 am (#82 of 118)
Edited Apr 20, 2006 9:58 am

Hmm, would that count as Aunt Petunia performing magic late in life?

<)B^D˜ John Bumbledore

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Choices - Apr 20, 2006 9:18 am (#83 of 118)

I shudder to think how clean Grimmauld Place would be if Petunia had to stay there very long. She would go into cleaning frenzy mode at first sight of the place. LOL

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Phelim Mcintyre - Apr 20, 2006 9:36 am (#84 of 118)

Has anyone else noticed what my sister did (and she says she isn't a Harry Potter fan!!). The note Moody shows Harry in OoP says Grimmauld Place, London. When Grimmauld Place is mentioned in front of the Dursley's DD doesn't say London. Do they then know the secret or not?

Also, with the anti-Muggle charms that Sirius's dad put on the place how would the Dursley's get to no 12?

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Madame Pomfrey - Apr 20, 2006 10:49 am (#85 of 118)

LOL Steve and John.

Phelim, I think if they can get in at all it would have to be with a wizard escort such as Harry.

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Die Zimtzicke - Apr 22, 2006 7:21 pm (#86 of 118)

The important thing to me is that Dumbledore did talk about Number 12 in front of the Dursleys.

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bigearl - Apr 24, 2006 8:41 am (#87 of 118)

I wouldn't be surprised if mentioning #12 GP in front of the Dursleys, was a calculated move on DD's part.

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Soul Search - Apr 24, 2006 9:50 am (#88 of 118)
Edited Apr 24, 2006 10:51 am

Dumbledore discussing Sirius, Harry's vault, and #12 Grimmauld Place in front of the Dursleys is certainly a bit strange. Reinforced a bit by Vernon's reaction to Sirius being dead and Harry inheriting a house. Maybe it was part of one of Dumbledore's "grand plans."

Previously, the Dursleys assumed Harry was destitute. Will Vernon's opinion of Harry change knowing he has means? Maybe Vernon will try to gouge Harry for their costs of raising him?

Fun as it would be, a scenario to get the Dursleys to #12 seems a stretch. If nothing else, there has usually been a clean separation between Harry's muggle life at #4 Privet Drive and his life in the wizarding world. On the other hand, that separation was muddled a bit in HBP, with dementors showing up on Privet Drive. Maybe all that was just to prelude something more in book seven.

(By the way, any hint when we will be hearing the title? I would like to type something besides "book seven.")

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Steve Newton - Apr 24, 2006 11:07 am (#89 of 118)

Sure, it will definitely be Harry Potter and the Really Great Conclusion.

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The One - Apr 24, 2006 12:02 pm (#90 of 118)

Sure?

I thought it would be called Harry Potter and all the loose ends left behind.

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Esther Rose - Apr 24, 2006 12:07 pm (#91 of 118)

Hah! I have three galleons here that say it’s going to be . . . .

Harry Potter and the Crumple-Horned Snorkack!

But I have a smaller side (three knuts) bet of . . .

Harry Potter and the Revenge of the Wrackspurts.

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Die Zimtzicke - Apr 24, 2006 5:08 pm (#92 of 118)

What about "Harry Potter and the Truck Full of Money"?

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TheSaint - Apr 24, 2006 5:39 pm (#93 of 118)
Edited Apr 24, 2006 6:44 pm

Harry Potter and the Rotfang Conspirators!! The Ministry falls into the hands of out-of-control aurors when most of the Ministry staff, waylayed by gingivitis, are blown up in the office of Dr. and Dr. Granger!

In Chapter Three of HBP, DD is speaking of the enchantments placed on Grimmauld...'We do not know whether the enchantments we ourselves have placed upon it, for example, making it Unplottable..."

I thought Mr. Black made it Unplottable and the Order had it as a 'secret.' Why place both?

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Lilly P - Apr 25, 2006 5:52 am (#94 of 118)

you can never be too careful, The Saint, if one protection enchantment is good, then two is better! It's like being over-insured, it never hurts. Remember: CONSTANT VIGILANCE!!!

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Laura W - Apr 25, 2006 8:41 am (#95 of 118)

Good answer, Lilly. (chuckle)

I think, however, that we are talking about two different enchantments put on the house: one by the Black family and one by the Order.

On page 52 (Cdn edition), Dumbledore says to Harry, "Black family tradition decreed that the house was handed down the direct line, to the next male with the name of Black. ... While his (Sirius') will makes it perfectly clear that he wants you to have the house, it is nevertheless possible that some spell or enchantment has been set upon the place to ensure that it cannot be owned by anyone other than a pure-blood." (The Black enchantment re who could own the 12GP.)

Then, on the next page, DD says, "... We do not know whether the enchantments we ourselves have placed upon it, for example, making it unplottable, will hold now that the ownership has passed from Sirius's hands. ..." (The Order enchantment making 12GP unplottable.)

Laura

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Die Zimtzicke - Apr 26, 2006 7:19 pm (#96 of 118)

So there may be something on the house that prevents it from being put permanently under fidelius?

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Phelim Mcintyre - Apr 27, 2006 12:08 am (#97 of 118)

Die - that's how I see it. Surely you must have permission from the owner, or you could put a fidelius on something just to annoy someone or to keep stolen treasure hidden. Notice that Voldemort doesn't appear to be using fidelius charms on the horcruxes.

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Die Zimtzicke - May 3, 2006 11:57 am (#98 of 118)

If someone could put a fidelius on my house, so I couldn't use it or find it, that would be blatant theft.

This line of thought would open up all kinds of theories. Sirius let them use the house for the Order, and so did Harry, but does that mean ALL of the charms on it are still intact? If so, did Harry KNOW that simply telling them they could continue to use the house was keeping the charm on it? Could someone warn Harry he has to officially withdraw his permission, as owner, to lift the charm?

Interesting...

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cindysuewho45 - May 7, 2006 10:19 pm (#99 of 118)

Hi all, I think that Harry may already understand this, and if the Order wanted to use #12 GP he would let them. I know that JKR has answered this one time (when we all wanted to know what would happen after Sirius died), but how about if the one who put the charm on the house dies, DD. How will this affect the house?

Also how do you all feel about Kreacher? I am of the belief that he hid the locket for RAB, and if Sirius did find it, without knowing it and was having it tossed out, Kreacher would of saved it and stashed it in his little room or nest if you will. I do not think that anyone would have looked there for good things to steal. So it will still be there. Harry and whoever will need to go there and look etc.. etc..

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Mattew Bates - May 8, 2006 9:10 am (#100 of 118)

It's entirely possible that the locket made its way into Kreacher's nest, cindysuewho45. The real question is whether or not Mundungus found Kreacher's nest while the elf has been living/working at Hogwarts. If he did, then chances are it isn't in 12GP anymore.

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Choices - May 8, 2006 9:45 am (#101 of 118)
Edited May 8, 2006 10:56 am

Speaking of Mundungus, at the end of GOF when Dumbledore is gathering the troops together to begin the fight against Voldemort (now that his return is confirmed), one of the people he asks Sirius to notify is Mundungus, along with Mrs. Figg and Lupin - the old crowd. Dumbledore obviously knows and trusts Mundungus, so when I read that, it occurred to me that perhaps in spite of how it looks in HBP, Mundungus is acting on Dumbledore's orders and was about to turn the stuff over to Aberforth (another old member of the Order) for safe keeping. That is the only way I can justify Tonks stepping in to "save" Mundungus from Harry.

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Lilly P - May 9, 2006 6:02 pm (#102 of 118)

WOW! choices! I just LOVE it when someone comes up with a theory that blows my socks off! I never thought of Mundungus being a "good guy"! ***goes to bed with much to think about***

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Finn BV - May 9, 2006 6:10 pm (#103 of 118)

I've never thought of Dung as "bad," just somebody who's a crook for the good guys. I surely hope nobody ever considered him a Death Eater or somebody; he's just a man who is a bit troublesome. I'm sure we all know or knew somebody or was a good person deep down, they just were troublemakers (Fred and George) or hung out with the wrong crowd, or didn't get the right grades, or whatever. Dung is easily an Order member, just with an unstoppable habit of looting.

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Laura W - May 10, 2006 3:28 am (#104 of 118)
Edited May 10, 2006 4:29 am

he's just a man who is a bit troublesome.

Is that something like being a little bit pregnant, Finn? (wide grin)

just with an unstoppable habit of looting . . .

Oh really? The guy is a professional thief with no principles or scruples whatsoever. I'm with Snape when he said to Seamus, "If you had actually read the article in question, Mr. Finnigan, you would have known that the so-called Inferius was nothing but a smelly sneak-thief by the name of Mundungus Fletcher." (HBP, chapter 21, p. 430, Raincoast)

More importantly perhaps is what he did to Harry in OoP, chapter one. Ordered by DD to watch over Harry, he deserted his post for his own selfish purposes, leaving our boy to the mercy (?) of the Dementors. (Unfortunately, Mrs. Figg could do little but look on helplessly, of course. "I've never so much as Transfigured a teabag.") This not only resulted in both he and Dudley coming darned close to being kissed by the former jail guards, it forced Harry to use the Patronus Charm (ie - underaged magic) which practically got him expelled from his only real home - Hogwarts - and put him through the stress - like he needs more stress in his life - of that terrible trial. Even if Dung turns into the big hero of the whole series, *I* will never forgive him for that.

Obviously, he is not a Death Eater and he is in the Order because Dumbledore trusts him enough to be in the Order. I can accept that. And, like Sirius told Harry in chapter five, "He's useful. Knows all the crooks - well, he would, seeing as he's one himself. ... It pays to have someone like Dung around, he hears things we don't." That makes perfect sense. Every police department around the world has criminals or former criminals, snitches, etc. on their payroll. They may be undesirable human beings, but they are invaluable.

I may be in the minority here, but my opinion of Mundungus concurs with Molly Weasley's.

Laura

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haymoni - May 10, 2006 7:06 am (#105 of 118)
Edited May 10, 2006 8:07 am

Did Tonks rescue him??? I thought he apparated - or disapparated - whatever.

The guy's a crook. He'd take anything he could.

I don't think there is anything admirable about what he is doing.

Now...if he takes the locket and gets injured because of the protections on the Horcrux...I would find that to be a very plausible storyline for him...and that may be how Harry finds the locket, although I'm still leaning towards Ginny being the one who remember it.

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Choices - May 10, 2006 8:31 am (#106 of 118)

Just before Mundungus Disapparated, Harry had his hands around Mundungus's throat and Tonks used a spell..."There was a bang, and Harry felt his hands fly off Mundungus's throat."

Harry tells her that Mundungus was stealing Sirius' stuff and ..."Yes, but still," said Tonks, who seemed perfectly untroubled by this piece of information.

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haymoni - May 10, 2006 8:44 am (#107 of 118)

Thanks, Choices.

I suppose she really thought that he was going to choke Dung to death.

It wouldn't do to have The Chosen One sitting in Azkaban on an attempted murder charge.

I still think Dung is nothing but a crook.

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Choices - May 10, 2006 8:47 am (#108 of 118)
Edited May 10, 2006 10:31 am

Oh, I totally agree he's a crook, but he is also loyal to Dumbledore and I am just suspicious that the scene outside the bar is not exactly as it appears.

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Die Zimtzicke - May 10, 2006 9:00 am (#109 of 118)

He's a crook. Okay, but that doesn't make him evil. Why does everyone have to be either black or white? Dung for me is one of the shades of gray.

He obviously cared about Dumbledore. As for watching Harry, as someone who has turned my back on a kid for two minutes, (more than once, as I am a mother of many) and had that kid get in trouble during those two minutes, I can sympathize a bit. Plus, Sirius didn't want that silver anyway. He was throwing valuable stuff out right and left, stuff that Harry didn't even bother to ask about, So why would Dung think the silver would matter to Harry? Harry had not showed that much interest in Grimmauld Place after he took ownership of it.

Dung's a crook, and shady and all of those things, but let's not talk about him as if he's up there with the Death Eaters. He's there for color, probably.

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Choices - May 10, 2006 9:39 am (#110 of 118)

I agree Die - Dumbledore got Dung out of a tight spot some years back, so Dung is loyal to Dumbledore and is valuable to the Order. I am just suspicious of that scene outside the Three Broomsicks - it is made to look like Dung is stealing Sirius' silver, but there may be a whole different thing going on. Dung just possibly could be acting on Dumbledore's orders or something. And what did Aberforth have to do with the situation?

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Soul Search - May 10, 2006 10:44 am (#111 of 118)

While we are suspicious of Dung's actions, what about the breaking and entering he was caught and sent to Azkaban for? Was he just trying to steal something, or was he doing something for the Order?

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Laura W - May 10, 2006 3:11 pm (#112 of 118)
Edited May 10, 2006 4:16 pm

As for watching Harry, as someone who has turned my back on a kid for two minutes, (more than once, as I am a mother of many) and had that kid get in trouble during those two minutes . . .

There is a big difference between taking your eyes off a kid for two minutes in a shopping mall or wherever which results in them getting into trouble, and actually *leaving* (removing yourself physically from) the place where you are supposed to be watching over and protecting a kid who is a known target for death by the Dark Lord in order to sell or buy some stolen goods. "but I 'ad a business opportunity-" (OoP) No comparison whatsoever!

And I never used the word "evil" to describe Mundungus Fletcher. That would be silly. I just think he is terribly irresponsible and unscrupulous.

Re Dung stealing Harry's possessions from the Black house: well he was already eyeing them when Sirius was still alive. From Oop, chapter five:

'Sirius,' said Mundungus, ... who had been closely examining an empty goblet. 'This solid silver, mate?'

'Yes, said Sirius,... 'Finest fifteenth-century goblin-wrought silver, embossed with the Black family crest.'

'That'd come off, though, muttered Mundungus, polishing it with his cuff."

Choices, as I wrote, if Dung is in the Order then obviously Dumbledore trusted him - to an extent at least- but, as to his acting on DD's orders when he was in Hogsmede trying to fence the goods he pilfered from 12GP, I have some canon which may dispute that. HBP, chapter 13, DD talking to Harry:

“Ah, yes, I am already aware that Mundungus has been treating your inheritance with light-fingered contempt,” said Dumbledore, frowning a little. "He has gone to ground since you accosted him outside the Three Broomsticks; I rather think he dreads facing me. However, rest assured that he will not be making away with any more of Sirius's old possessions."

I think, in part, Jo put Dung in as a bit of comic relief. *I* just don't find him to be at all amusing. But that's just me.

Laura

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Mediwitch - May 10, 2006 7:11 pm (#113 of 118)

I often wondered about that "business opportunity" that came up for Dung in OoP causing him to abandon his duty...seems fishy (cauldrons fell off the back of a broom *wink wink*Brows) but I suppose this really belongs on a different thread.

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Catherine - May 11, 2006 12:34 pm (#114 of 118)

He was throwing valuable stuff out right and left, stuff that Harry didn't even bother to ask about, So why would Dung think the silver would matter to Harry? Harry had not showed that much interest in Grimmauld Place after he took ownership of it.

Well, Sirius was throwing away his own possessions in OoP--why would Harry think that he should have some claim on Sirius's possessions?

I really don't think that Dung really cared what Harry felt or did not feel about 12 GP and the valuable items hidden within. I don't get the sense that Dung allows sentiment to get in the way of a business opportunity.

As for Harry's interest in GP, I would think that visiting there right after Sirius's death would have been horribly painful, never mind that Dumbledore had to ascertain its safety from the Death Eaters and that Harry is required to return to 4 Privet Drive to maintain his protection from Voldemort.

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Steve Newton - May 11, 2006 12:40 pm (#115 of 118)

I don't get the sense that Dung allows sentiment to get in the way of a business opportunity.

Well put.

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Solitaire - May 14, 2006 9:32 am (#116 of 118)
Edited May 14, 2006 10:35 am

Dung is a fast-talking con man. I don't think he intends to hurt anyone, but we already know his fascination for making a quick galleon can get in the way of what he is supposed to be doing. Remember the Dementor business. If Dung had stayed at his appointed post instead of chasing abandoned cauldrons, Harry might not have left 4PD and wound up facing Dementors all alone.

Dung is easily side-tracked by a get-money-fast business scheme, and I think everyone knows it. That is the best way to get him out of the way.

Solitaire

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Soul Mate for Sirius - May 22, 2006 11:42 am (#117 of 118)
Edited May 22, 2006 12:43 pm

Dung is easily side-tracked by a get-money-fast business scheme, and I think everyone knows it. That is the best way to get him out of the way. –Solitaire

You know Solitaire, now that you've said that, I've got to wonder if maybe Umbridge knew Dung was watching Harry and set up that "business opportunity" herself to get him to leave?!? (Sorry if this has been discussed already, but I really didn't have time to go through all the posts! ) But anyway, that's getting a bit off topic so maybe I should pose that question on Dung's thread...

-Jenn

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Solitaire - May 27, 2006 9:05 am (#118 of 118)

Actually, Jenn, I think it may have been, but that is back when OotP was first out (2003). I do not remember which thread covered it. Umbridge or Arabella Figg, perhaps? Maybe the Dementor thread? I can't remember if Dung had a thread or not ...

Solitaire