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Post  Mona Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:20 am

Ron Weasley
Sly Girl - Aug 29, 2003 11:53 am
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 17, 2005 2:21 am

The thread Ron's ability to see into the future was added to this thread at Post #134 and could possibly make some wonder what happened in the flow of posts. I have added this explanation to avoid any confusion. -Kip

Is Ron a seer? A goofball? A brilliant strategist? What was the last topic we were tallking about on Ez board? This is the place to discuss your favorite red-head.
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Post  Mona Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:25 am

David Olson - Aug 30, 2003 9:35 am (#1 of 1957)

It's probably been mentioned, but the Hat thought about putting Harry into Slytherin, but placed him in Gryffindor. It thought about putting Hermione into Ravenclaw. I will not be surprised to find out in book six that the hat was going to put Ron into Hufflepuff, but he wanted to go into Gryffindor.

By their friendship, they unify the houses.



Professor Kosh - Aug 30, 2003 9:50 am (#2 of 1957)

Good point. If we were to bring up Ron's greatest contibution or asset, it would be that he was loyal, steadfast, and true. Isn't that the description of a Hufflepuff?



almightykneazle3 - Aug 30, 2003 10:37 am (#3 of 1957)

That makes a lot of sense David... I never thought of how it brought all of the houses together. Isn't that what Hermione and everyone kept saying: Become united. Interesting way of JK to put that in like that.

-Almighty Kneazle-



Sly Girl - Aug 30, 2003 1:06 pm (#4 of 1957)

Yes, Ron is those things, but he is also brave. I think his bravery gets overshadowed, because of Harry, but it is a trait he has, in spades. For Example:

He doesn't waste a second to offer himself as Harry's second in a duel (book one)

Gets a dragon bite because he helps Hagrid with Norbert -- then postpones going to Madam Pomfrey because he doesn't want to get Hagrid into trouble (book one)

Refuses to let Harry go down the trapdoor alone and sacrifices himself in a chess game for Harry and Hermione (book one)

Fiercely defends Hermione and ends up burping slugs (book two)

Confronts his greatest fear, following the spiders to help Hermione (book two)

Goes head first with Harry into the Chamber of Secrets, stopped only by the falling rocks (book two)

Gets a detention from Snape for defending Hermione (book 3)

Pulls Hermione back after she hits Malfoy (book 3)

Throws himself in front of Harry to protect him from Padfoot, also tells Harry and Hermione to leave him in the Shrieking Shack because it's a trap (book 3) Stands on a broken leg and twice states his resolve to die for Harry (book 3)

Notices that Harry isn't in bed and goes to make sure he's okay, even though they're having a fight And lets Harry practice stunning spells on him,even though Hermione won't. (book 4)

There are many different definitions of bravery. Neville has it and so does Ron.



fidelio - Aug 30, 2003 1:20 pm (#5 of 1957)

Plus, to add to Sly Girls' list, Ron takes part in DA in spite of Umbridge and his mother, and breaks out of Umbridge's office with Ginny and the others, and goes into the forest to look for Harry and Hermione in Book 5, rides a thestral to the MoM [a pretty horrible experience--riding a flying animal he can't see! ] right after that, and enters the Department of Mysteries and gets into a fight with a lot of fully-grown, fully-trained DEs. Besides sitting on Harry when necessary, and training for Quidditch in spite of constant harrassment from his older brothers and all of House Slytherin.



Sassi Fras - Aug 30, 2003 1:47 pm (#6 of 1957)

If you really tried, I'm sure you could find some of the qualities that describe each house in all of the characters. Could Harry and Hermione not also be described as loyal, steadfast, and true? The characteristics will vary in degree in each person. So while Ron may have the characteristics of a Hufflepuff, his actions, as pointed out by Sly and Fidelio, correlate more with the ideals of Gryffindor.



Gabrielle D - Aug 30, 2003 2:01 pm (#7 of 1957)

I think Ron really could have made it into any house easily. Not only is he brave, loyal, but he is smart (or at least would be if he ever studied) and is very intent on getting things done regardless of anything when he wants to.



Pinky - Aug 30, 2003 3:02 pm (#8 of 1957)

A question I have is: Did Ron improve drastically in his magic starting in his third year? We all are expecting Neville to improve greatly now that he will be getting his own wand. Ron had the same thing happen to him when his wand broke in CoS. Other than the natural improvement because he was older and learning more, did he improve all that much once he got his own wand?



A-is-for-Amy - Aug 30, 2003 4:55 pm (#9 of 1957)

Ron did get new wand, but it had the same core as the one that he broke, I don't know if the wood was the same or not. It maight have been close enough to the one he already had, that it didn't make much of a difference.



Carina - Aug 30, 2003 7:59 pm (#10 of 1957)

A while ago I wrote a blurb of a story where the Sorting hat put Harry in Slytherin, Hermy in Ravenclaw and Ron in Hufflepuff (because he does seem to show a huge amount of loyalty), but I have to agree that all three of them are brave above everything else and deserve to be in Gryffindor.



OkieAngel - Aug 31, 2003 9:19 am (#11 of 1957)

I agree that Ron is brilliant...scary, but brilliant. No, wait that's Hermy!! Just Kidding, I knew that, but it's one of my all-time fave Ron lines.

I think he's going to become Quidditch captain and his chess strategist abilities are going to bring his brilliance to the forefront. Don't forget DD said in SS that was the best played game of chess Hogwarts had seen in many years, to paraphrase. Which tells me that once he starts engineering Harry's "Wonky Faint's" (sorry Hermy, couldn't help it)and the Gryf chasers attacking formations, they're gonna blow Slytherin out of the sky. Weasley is our King!!

One thing bothers me however; does it appear telling to ya'll that he and Cedric share the same type of wand core; Unicorn Hair. Back in SS, didn't Ronan the Centaur make a statement to Hagrid regarding unicorns, something to the effect of it's always the innocents that die first. A forewarning of Cedric and perhaps Ron??



Carina - Aug 31, 2003 10:02 am (#12 of 1957)

I think Harry is the obvious choice for team captain next year (hold on and hear me out), but not necessarily the best choice. Unfortunately, I feel Ron IS the best choice, but he hasn't proven himself to be as of yet (I'll be shocked if one spectacular save gets him the captain position).

So I'm thinking, Harry will get captain (being the big name and the best flier as well as compensation for being passed over on the Prefect thing), but will end up consulting with Ron 99% of the time. Ron knows more about quidditch than anyone else on the team and with his strategist's mind, he'll be able to plan out some great plays. Harry will just be the mouthpiece and figurehead, but in the end, hopefully, he'll realize who the TRUE captain is and hand it over to Ron.



rettoP yrraH - Aug 31, 2003 12:53 pm (#13 of 1957)

Yea think chess.



Sly Girl - Aug 31, 2003 3:19 pm (#14 of 1957)

I think one of the most important things to remember about Ron is that his creator loves him. JKR modeled Ron after one of her closest friends she had growing up- Sean Harris (she dedicated book 2 to him)and I don't think she would kill him off. That's the belief I'm sticking to and I'm proud of it.



cara - Aug 31, 2003 4:21 pm (#15 of 1957)

Ron is my favorite character out of the trio--mainly because his character is hilarious. But the qualities listed above are great too.

I think Ron will be quiddich captain. Mainly because he would make a great one. With his knowledge and authority he has over most people. He is also very good at strategy--look at his chess skills. Plus, if Dumbledore is the one who chooses the captain, like he did the prefects, wouldn't he choose Ron for the same reason? Too much for Harry?



Marye Lupin - Aug 31, 2003 4:45 pm (#16 of 1957)

Alright, this has been bugging me... I love Ron, but I'm having trouble understanding why he was made prefect. He has a lot of strong points but I don't really see him as a very good choice: his grades aren't spectacular, and he's not very good at standing up/telling off people like Fred and George, and he's not the greatest role model in some ways (note the way he acted towards the first years in OoP). I gather that the head of house has a lot to say in the selection of prefects (I can't really see Dumbledore choosing Malfoy for Slytherin so I'm assuming it was mostly up to Snape) and boosting Ron's self esteem doesn't like a very McGonnagall type way of choosing prefects (and Ron seems to get in more trouble than the other boys in their year other than Harry). Dumbledore told us why he didn't choose Harry but he never said why Ron was chosen.



Sly Girl - Aug 31, 2003 4:56 pm (#17 of 1957)

Oh I don't know, perhaps if Snape told Dumbledore he wanted Malfoy as prefect because if he wasn't made one, Lucius would be suspcious of Snape's hold of the house, I could see DD going along with it. As for Ron, I do think it was given to him to give him a chance to do well. With Dumbledore wanting Harry to not worry about Prefect duties, who else could they make Prefect and still keep the trio working as it does? Seamus and Dean just don't matter to this story as much and JKR needed Ron and Hermione to be prefects together. To be perfectly honest, I can't see Harry being a better prefect than Ron, not with everything else going on around him at the start of term- people thinking he was a nutter and what not.



Professor Kosh - Sep 1, 2003 8:52 am (#18 of 1957)

I agree with Sly Girl about the reasons why Malfoy was made a prefect. What better way to appease Lucius and keep Snape's cover, plus giving Draco a higher profile means he is easier to watch!



mischa fan - Sep 1, 2003 11:50 am (#19 of 1957)

Just a reminder, this is a Ron Weasley thread, so let's not get into a long discussion as to why Draco was made prefect.

Now I think that Ron was made prefect because after Harry is taken out of the mix, as Dumbledore did do, Ron was the a better choice then Nevelle, Dean, or Seamus.



Dr Filibuster - Sep 1, 2003 11:56 am (#20 of 1957)
Edited Sep 1, 2003 12:57 pm

Ron got a special services to Hogwarts award didn't he? That would mean he's a great candidate for prefect.



Sly Girl - Sep 1, 2003 12:02 pm (#21 of 1957)

True.. he and Harry both received special awards in CoS. I'm not sure if that had anything to do with it though. I think Ron will develop into his role of prefect, much like he will do better in his role as Keeper.



S.E. Jones - Sep 2, 2003 5:57 am (#22 of 1957)
Edited Sep 2, 2003 7:13 am

I quite agree Sly.

Someone, sorry I can't remember who, on the last EZboard made a comment about why they thought Ron was a great prefect. It went something along the lines of him being competent enough looking for younger students to believe he can handle a situation (and let's face it, he's handled plenty in his time) and approachable enough that students wouldn't be afraid he'd yell at them (as Hermy might) or embarrass them or something, and thus would be seen as very trustworthy as an authority figure. I happen to agree with this, personally. Also, as I noticed that Ron resembled his dad a lot in OotP, who better to act as Prefect?



Marye Lupin - Sep 2, 2003 2:31 pm (#23 of 1957)

Alright I understand that Ron has potential, especially now that Fred and George are gone(and plotwise I completely understand the decision). I think that why it happened was process of ellimination (I don't know enough about Dean or Seamus to know whether either would make a good prefect). Personally I think that Neville has as much potential as Ron (he can stand up to students better than teachers, but that's for a different thread) but I guess the deciding factor was probably that Ron does shows more confidence than Neville. By himself I don't think he's the greatest prefect, but he and Hermione together do make a great team (sort of balance each other out).

In short, I guess I'm starting to rethink my position on this *blushes*



Olivia Wood - Sep 4, 2003 2:09 pm (#24 of 1957)

To bring up something that was mentioned a while back:

>>One thing bothers me however; does it appear telling to ya'll that he and Cedric share the same type of wand core; Unicorn Hair. Back in SS, didn't Ronan the Centaur make a statement to Hagrid regarding unicorns, something to the effect of it's always the innocents that die first. A forewarning of Cedric and perhaps Ron??<<<

I never really liked the Unicorn Hair=Death theory. If all people who had unicorn hair wands were innocents, and therefore would die first, a third of the population wouldn't be here right now. And now, after OoP, I think the theory is disqualified altoghether.

When the Centuars say "We do not hurt the innocent" in OoP, they aren't refering to unicorns, they're refering to foals/children. So with that in mind, one can be resonably certain that when Ronan says "Always the innocent are the first victims, so it has been for ages past, so it is now" (US SS p.253) he is also refering to children, or more specifically, to Harry, who would indeed have been killed if it wasn't for Firenze's interferance.

It doesn't have much to do with unicorns, so I reckon Ron, and anyone else who happens to have Unicorn hair in their wands, is just as safe as anyone else.



Hem Hem - Sep 4, 2003 4:47 pm (#25 of 1957)

If everyone whose wand was unicorn was innocent, what would become of "it is your choices that show who you truly are, far more than your abilities?" Wands probably don't choose a wizard based on the choices that the person will make in the future.



OkieAngel - Sep 4, 2003 5:02 pm (#26 of 1957)

In defense of my earlier post regarding Ron and Cedric sharing the same wand core, I wasn't, by any means, inferring that all people who have a unicorn wand are innocents. I was merely raising the question of whether this was a "death clue" regarding Ron. I certainly hope not, but I thought it an interesting parallel.

Maybe not as interesting as a sign in St. Mungo's, though...



S.E. Jones - Sep 4, 2003 5:34 pm (#27 of 1957)

A sign in St. Mungo's? Are you referring to the Sirius death clue?



OkieAngel - Sep 4, 2003 5:40 pm (#28 of 1957)

Yes, that was what I was referring to.



S.E. Jones - Sep 4, 2003 9:34 pm (#29 of 1957)

Here's a question, is Ron such a great chess player because of some natural strategic skill or because he knows, on a subconscious level, what moves the other player's going to make before they make them?



TGF - Sep 4, 2003 10:49 pm (#30 of 1957)

Man, Ron's skill at chess is one of those annoyingly over-analyzed subjects...

What do you mean, S.E? That he's a natural Legilimen? I don't believe that there's such a thing... And I think he'd do better in school, as he could just read Hermione's mind and ace everything... I know you said subconscious level, but I'm sure he's subconsciously wished he could read Hermione's mind during a test or examination or whatnot (NOTE: That statement is not to be used for R/H shipping purposes).

There's been no sign of him having any mind-reading ability at all... Or some weird Seer ability at that... I mean, he never divined anything in divination, and if JKR wanted to send him down that road she would surely have dropped some hints during his three years of classes in there...



Sly Girl - Sep 4, 2003 10:56 pm (#31 of 1957)
Edited Sep 5, 2003 12:00 am

You'll have to excuse TGF.. he doesn't really care for Ron all that much.

I think what Sarah was getting at is that since it's been supposed that one of the Weasley's will indeed have the 'weird' seer ability, that if this is a clue that Ron is using that to perform well at chess.

While I do agree that Ron does share a sort of uncanny knack for getting things right when he jokes, I think to say that his chess ability is based on that takes away from him just being a good player.



S.E. Jones - Sep 5, 2003 9:25 am (#32 of 1957)

Yes, that was what I was getting at, Sly. And, may I point out that the only two characters that consistantly make accidental predictions are Ron and Trewlany, and we know that Sybil has real visions and thus at least some latent seer ability, so I don't see why Ron couldn't have some seer in him. As far as why he never devined anything in divination, well Firenze pointed out (and yes this is a paraphrase) that the future cannot be found in tea leaves. I don't think anyone, even a true seer, could read tea leaves and palms, that's all bunk. I think they get their predictions from visions and a sort of natural sixth sense only.

I agree that the question may undermine him as a chess player but I thought it an interesting one for discussion purposes....



Harold Pinta - Sep 5, 2003 9:51 am (#33 of 1957)

Nice ideas, but there is a myth of the seventh son of a seventh son which will be a seer, I have read a discussion somewhere on the web (I forgot to bookmark, I know stupid of me)explaining that between charlie and Percy there was another brother.Which would mean that Ron would be the seventh son and therefore a seer.I do not actually believe this theory. I think however that JKR uses Ron's often off hand remarks as clues. A lot of Ron's quirky remarks have come true. Which doesn't mean he is a seer, but Ron is used to give clues (and probably also som red herrings as well!).

If the seventh son (child) of a seventh son (child) theory is true and JKR actually is thinking about using it. We would have to turn our eyes towards Ginny.

On a side note there is a series of fantasy books written by Orson Scott Card called the tales of Alvin maker which has based its main character on this myth with a twist. (I do occasionaly read more than Harry Potter).



Sly Girl - Sep 5, 2003 12:16 pm (#34 of 1957)

Harold, refer to the Ginny thread for some very interesting ah.. discussion about Ginny and the 7th child idea.

I agree with you Sarah, I think that whomever the 'seer' turns out to be it will not be all smoking rooms and lukewarm tea leaves waiting to be read. It will be honest to goodness prophecy or 'foresight'.



Patronus - Sep 6, 2003 12:15 am (#35 of 1957)
Edited Sep 6, 2003 1:16 am

Hermione is really clever, Harry extremely brave and Ron just seems to be very clumsy and sheepish. (think of the slug incident) Don´t get me wrong, I love Ron - he´s my favourite character. I think that there must be something he is really good at and it will come out soon. I think it´s well possible that he has something like a sixth sense without knowing it.



Olivia Wood - Sep 6, 2003 7:43 am (#36 of 1957)

I think he'll be the good friend that's good at chess. It's more realistic that way, IMHO. Not everybody in real life is especially talented, and Harry needs a normal friend.



Sly Girl - Sep 6, 2003 12:38 pm (#37 of 1957)

Ron doesn't need to be clever, they've got Hermione. Ron doesn't need to be brave (even though he is), they've got Harry. It frustrates me when people try to come up with a 'thing' that must be Ron's to be good at. Why can't he just be Ron Weasley, lovable, warm-hearted, emotional,loyal,sometimes brave friend of Harry Potter? He's not going to betray Harry, he's not going to go to the other side under a curse. Without Ron, you'd have a bossy Hermione who is rarely questioned and a hollow Harry who never laughs. Ron is just important by just being himself. He is the perfect middle ground in which Hermione and Harry interact.



Olivia Wood - Sep 6, 2003 12:49 pm (#38 of 1957)

I totally agree with you, Sly. That's pretty much I was getting at, but you say it so much better than me. Smile



TGF - Sep 6, 2003 12:53 pm (#39 of 1957)

As my friend of mine put it after reading HP, "Every group of (inappropriate-for-this-board)-kickers needs a source of comic relief."

That's Ron, he's just the Jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none, funny and very-human guy. I imagine most Wizards are like that... That doesn't say that he doesn't have room for develop or that bad things won't happen to him. But he certainly has a role as it is. He doesn't have to become a Chess-playing Seer or whatever to be mentioned in the same sentence as Harry or Hermione.

See? I can say nice things about Ron.



Professor Kosh - Sep 6, 2003 1:53 pm (#40 of 1957)

I agree. I think Ron is the 'normal kid' who helps cement HRH in normal 'kid' reality. (Face it, he seems to be the only one who thoroughly acts his age.)

As a side note, however, I wouldn't hold the slug incident has an example of clumsyness. He had a broken wand, which didn't work well. If his wand had been normal, Malfoy would have 'eaten slug!'



Gabrielle D - Sep 6, 2003 6:44 pm (#41 of 1957)

I love Ron... he is the commen thread between Harry and Hermione, and if you remember, when he wasn't there, the two H's don't work. Toegther the three of them are a team. You can't play Quidditch witout a seeker just as well as you cant play with the keeper or the beaters.

Ron doesn't need anything more than what he has. He works like checks and blaences. No one gets more power when he's around. However, this works with Harry being the third, and with Hermione being the third in the group. It doesn't work without one of them.

Im very much like Ron... he's just a real kid, nothing spectacualr about him, but there's nothing wrong with that.



noam brakin - Sep 8, 2003 8:52 am (#42 of 1957)

when has ron made predictions?



schoff - Sep 8, 2003 9:20 am (#43 of 1957)
Edited by Sep 8, 2003 10:20 am

Noam: Welcome to the forum! I've read a few of your other posts, and they're pretty good. I have to warn you, however, we're pretty big on not using netspeak, and would prefer it if you would use capitals in your sentences. They make your posts easier to read. If you have any questions, please refer to the Philosophy of this Forum thread.

As to answer your question, Ron makes predictions that come true all the time, in the form of his jokes. When Ron jokes, he is usually right. Go back and read a couple of them, especially in the earlier books, and you will see what I mean. What we are debating is whether this is a sign that Ron is a seer, or if JKR is just using the character to give us plotline hints.



OkieAngel - Sep 8, 2003 11:20 am (#44 of 1957)

Wow TGF, I'm proud of you, that was a nice thing you said up there!! I know, you're gonna scald me for that comment later, that's okay, because I happen to totally agree with you (how often does that happen?? LOL) on Ron. He is the everyday Elmer's glue that holds our three amigos together, plus he's hilarious. I'm currently re-reading OP (slower, this time) and Ron is keeping me in stitches. I say leave Ron alone, I love him the way he is.

As for who the "seer" in our group is, slap me with a red herring, but I'm thinking, Harry.

"One person can't feel all that at once, the'd explode." Ron, OoP pg 459



TGF - Sep 8, 2003 9:11 pm (#45 of 1957)

Don't worry, Okie, I'm still reasonably anti-Ron in my stance. I just really think its silly to look for hidden talents and amazing abilities within him when he's fine as-is. Not everyone has to be a demigod of magical power in order to fulfill a role.

Don't get me wrong, I still think he's a bumbler, terribly-mediocre and oftentimes incompetent. But I suppose all that is part of his character.



S.E. Jones - Sep 9, 2003 6:32 am (#46 of 1957)
Edited Sep 9, 2003 7:34 am

Okay, I admit that Ron's not the sharpest tool in the shed, but, despite TGF's opinion of Ron , he's not the dullest either. In OotP, JKR seems to go out of her way, though, to point out him blatantly not getting some subtle clue (think of the "dogging" comment Draco made for one). Why go through the trouble of stressing this part of his character in this book but not in the other four? Was it to show some subtle change in his character come book 6? And, will this have anything to do with the brain incident?

Okay people, let's get the creative juices flowing here. What do you think?...



schoff - Sep 9, 2003 10:45 am (#47 of 1957)
Edited by Sep 9, 2003 11:46 am

I don't think Ron was shown as being that stupid in OoP. I can honestly see him missing the "dogging" comment, because his mind was filled with other things (his excitement about the Prefect meeting). The kid is pretty easily distracted. Yeah, when it comes to Hermione, and girls by extension, he's a little slow, but the scene where Harry was telling them about the kiss, he came across as quite intuitive. His "knowledgeable" reaction actually gave me the impression that he and Hermione might be up to something behind Harry's back, something that doesn't involve the DA. They really did act like Molly and Arthur, quite a bit.



haymoni- Sep 9, 2003 11:56 am (#48 of 1957)

Ron reacted quick enough when he learned Hermione was writing to Krum. Who knows what will happen over the summer between those two?



S.E. Jones - Sep 9, 2003 12:02 pm (#49 of 1957)
Edited Sep 9, 2003 1:03 pm

I agree, they do act like Molly and Arthur, they even remind Harry of the Weasley parental units at times. I didn't mean to suggest that Ron was being stupid, by any means, just being thicker than usual. The dogging comment was just one of many in OotP and I kept getting rather aggravated about him missing the subtler clues. I thought maybe it was just me, but when I went through the other four books, he seemed to be much better in this respect....

haymoni, care to make a speculation on the 'Ship...'Ship thread?



Olivia Wood - Sep 9, 2003 2:50 pm (#50 of 1957)

I didn't really think it was Ron getting stupider as much as Harry maybe getting a little quicker. In the previous books Hermione had to spell everything out for both of them, in this one it seemed that Ron was the only one still left behind... Although Harry had his moments of stipidity, too, so I don't know...
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Post  Mona Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:34 am

Sinister Kittens - Sep 9, 2003 3:03 pm (#51 of 1957)

Could we be seeing 'teenage boy phenomenon' at work here? My family always called it the 'log headed syndrome', but I think they are the same thing. Most teenagers suffer from it, Harry certainly did in OotP. Maybe Ron has a milder dose and just does not, yet, notice things that others regard as important?



TGF - Sep 9, 2003 8:44 pm (#52 of 1957)

Well, I didn't notice a sharp rise in Ron's unintelligence in OotP myself... He was just at his normal level of stupidity. I've heard reasoning that the Brains might make him smart or some other such thing, but I'll stress my assertion that Ron hardly requires superpowers to fulfill his role in future books.

And yeah, please limit the R/H propaganda to the 'Ship 'Ship thread, so that I can handily avoid it.



shepherdess - Sep 9, 2003 10:47 pm (#53 of 1957)

TGF,

I agree with you that relationships should be discussed on the proper thread (I avoid as much of that as I can,too). But just word of caution: you kinda need to be careful about calling other people's opinions "propaganda"-save yourself the trouble of ducking all the flying knives from offended people!Smile



TGF - Sep 9, 2003 11:12 pm (#54 of 1957)

Oh yeah, offending R/H shippers... that's something I never ever do.

Any R/H (or G/H) shipper that speaks to me on the subject will usually come out of the discussion not liking me very much (Though I can name one major exception to that), mildly offended (exceptions there too), and rather fed up with me (No exceptions).

Besides, it is propaganda. ^^ I've called R/H shippers 'evil' before and they didn't mind, so I'm guessing they won't mind this either Razz



schoff - Sep 9, 2003 11:31 pm (#55 of 1957)
Edited by Sep 10, 2003 12:36 am

Uh, just to let you know TGF, our comments *were* on topic. We were interpreting Ron's behavior in the "kissing" scene. That is still allowed. And, since Harry has described Ron and Hermione as acting like Arthur and Molly, it's not like we brought it up out of the blue. I think Ron showed a lot of Arthur's qualities in OoP, such as letting Hermione be the enforcer, his backing up Hermione in the DA plan, etc. I can't really think of any others right now.

I have to agree, you could have been a little nicer. We weren't necessarily starting a R/H direction to the thread. The discussion could go several ways.

Nervously looks around hoping not to catch a glimpse of Thumper



OkieAngel - Sep 10, 2003 12:25 am (#56 of 1957)

Now Kiddies, Let's all play nice...there should be no throwing of sharp objects (put that away, TGF).

I agree there were several times during OOP that I found myself comparing Ron and Hermione to Arthur and Molly. The first of which was when Harry first arrived at HQ and Hermy was suffocating him in a hug. Ron was like "Let him breath, Hermione." That is something I could hear Arthur saying to Molly. Another instance that stands out in my mind was when Harry wanted to use Umbridge's fire to talk with Sirius and Hermy was dead set against it. She kept nagging at him and trying to get Ron to agree with her, but Ron wouldn't commit either way, until finally he told her to just drop it. That was very Arthur and Molly-like. Now before TGF blows his top, I do have a point (and it's NOT a 'ship point either) it seems to me that Ron is showing to be more like his dad than any of the Weasley boys so far. Personally, I don't see this as a bad thing, but it could explain some of the "thick" tendencies we've been seeing out of him.



Kip Carter - Sep 10, 2003 3:19 am (#57 of 1957)

TGF,

I know what I am getting ready to say may be considered off topic for this thread; however I felt that I best say it now in the hopes that it is avoided in other threads.

I am one who dislikes posters who seem to make a habit of disrupting a thread with comments that changes the direction of what the thread is about. Since we have been back, I have been very lenient with my comments in the hopes that everyone will have a good time and therefore keep everything in focus.

Your comments above and the tone in which they were delivered were uncalled for. You were correct in wanting to keep the thread in focus; however the way that you presented your desire was rude. There is no room on this forum for being rude to anyone!.

You have been an active and loyal member of this Forum since last year and I know you have seen a lot of things that were a lot worse that what caused your being upset above. I noticed when we returned to WX that you had a new avatar. It gives the appearance that you take no prisoners. I hope that you understand that this Forum is very family oriented and we are going to have a few comments that will get under your skin, just like most families have; however please use decretion when you feel someone needs to be corrected. If the situation does not change, Denise or I will definitely get involved and correct the situation. I hope that you understand!

Now let's get back to the topic on Ron Weasley!



S.E. Jones - Sep 10, 2003 5:03 am (#58 of 1957)

OkieAngel, I absolutely agree that Ron's turning into an Arthur, Jr. of late and I dearly hope it's a trend that continues. I still think the thickness is pointed out to indicate a very subtle change in him in Book 6. I don't see it as being an "Arthur trait" because he seems to be very intuitive to me, often reminding me of DD to a very lesser degree....



Beth Kakuma - Sep 10, 2003 12:38 pm (#59 of 1957)
Edited Sep 10, 2003 1:39 pm

Yes, Ron is growing up, maturing into a cool guy (sorta an Arthur Jr.). He may be thick at times, but that's part of his goofy charm. He has completely gotten over his jealousy of Harry (that we saw in GoF), and shown that on his own he can stand on his own as a prefect and a Quidditch player. I do agree with whoever said this earlier, that Ron isn't getting thicker in OotP, but that Harry is getting sharper.



Madame Librarian - Sep 10, 2003 2:09 pm (#60 of 1957)
Edited Sep 10, 2003 3:11 pm

Ron is one of the major sources of the hilarious, throw-away lines in these books. His wit is sharp and quick. His style of humor is very intentional--he doesn't make bloopers or inadvertant comments that are funny. I think he's quite smart. His "goofiness" or whatever it is may be due to any or all of the following:

Hormones--hello, teenage boys are quite vulnerable to surges of dumbness that are totally enzyme-induced.

Being the youngest boy in a very loud, rowdy family--the need to tune others out leaves Ron an expert at day-dreaming or alpha-waving, and thereby he's a bit out of focus and misses things sometimes.

Less mature--by this I mean that he simply hasn't gone through the horrific things Harry has, and lacks Harry's much more serious take on many things. Ron's loving family and relatively wonderful and fun childhood (at least until he met Harry) may have produced a false sense of security that causes him to be less alert to danger now. This last point is especially apparent in Ron's behavior in OoP (i.e., seeming to be dumber in comparison to Harry than in previous books).

Ciao. Barb



S.E. Jones - Sep 10, 2003 2:26 pm (#61 of 1957)

Ooh, Barb, I really like your explanation. Did anyone else notice that Harry was acting in OP much the same way Ron acted in GoF, and then seemed much more mellowed on the train ride home as Ron seemed in OP. Perhaps this is a very good thing, Harry becoming more like Arthur, Jr. certainly wouldn't hurt, would it.....



TGF - Sep 10, 2003 2:47 pm (#62 of 1957)

Very well, Kip, if you say I'm out of line then I likely am. My apologies go out to anyone who may have been offended by my terse words. If it's any consolation, I will have you all know that these past few days have been trying on me and I'm afraid I haven't been as tactful as I should be. I know that's no excuse, however, and I therefore apologize again.

As to my Avatar... Well, I really like the Avatar Kip... In fact, I'd say I love it, and I didn't get it to put on some sort of 'Don't mess with me' attitude. It was made for me by a rather good friend in the forum (Who's actually a moderator in her own right)... I'd really like to keep it, if you don't mind.



S.E. Jones - Sep 10, 2003 2:49 pm (#63 of 1957)

Personally, TGF, I love your avatar..... Smile



Denise P. - Sep 10, 2003 2:52 pm (#64 of 1957)

Kip wasn't asking you to change it. If he felt that way, he would come right and say (in email) Please change it.

Sorry, I don't buy that Ron is a seer, in the flesh. Yep, he makes offhand comments that become reality but I think JKR is just using him that way rather than attempting to have him be a seer.



TGF - Sep 10, 2003 3:14 pm (#65 of 1957)

Okay, good, I'm glad I can keep good old Captain Sparrow...

I'm personally in the camp of Ginny being a Seer. Ron being a Seer doesn't make sense... Doesn't anyone else think that it would be a pretty weird for such a gift to manifest in off-hand comments and jokes? Yeah, I know... the Eye works in various ways, but that's certainly a strange way nonetheless.



Marye Lupin - Sep 10, 2003 3:19 pm (#66 of 1957)

I don't think Ron's a seer either, he just makes jokes that sometimes have an eerie habit of comming true (not that eerie actually, JKR probably does it to give us hints, or so that, if we read the book a second time we chuckle a little). I also think he doesn't fit the traits of a seer. Somebody (either on this thread, the Ginny thread, or the Luna thread) suggested that a seer can simply have a "sixth sense" rather than going into trances a la Trelawny. I don't think Ron has a sixth sense, he probably doesn't believe in the slightest that what he's saying will come true-- he's just trying to make people laugh.

BTW-- TGF I really love your avatar



OkieAngel - Sep 10, 2003 6:43 pm (#67 of 1957)

Oh man TGF, you gotta keep the pic...I would feel awful crossing swords with you if you were unarmed...



Kip Carter - Sep 10, 2003 6:45 pm (#68 of 1957)

TGF,

I have no problems whatsoever with your avatar and I do appreciate your post.



Earo - Sep 10, 2003 7:57 pm (#69 of 1957)

I think that part of what makes Ron's "ability" so easy to accept is that he does not take himself seriously when he says things. I bet if he thought about all he has commented on that has come to be he would scratch his head in awe and brush it off.



TGF - Sep 10, 2003 8:24 pm (#70 of 1957)

Well, I'm glad I enjoy universal support for the avatar... Sly Girl, I think that says something of your Avatar-creation abilities.



Professor Kosh - Sep 10, 2003 8:33 pm (#71 of 1957)

I too throw my hat into the I-like-TGF's-avatar ring. I really enjoyed that flick!

My thoughts on more prophecy/seers have been stated before (on this or the Ginny thread, I'm not sure). To sum up, I don't care for prophecy in stories, as I think it takes away from the uncertainty and the story.

That said, I like the idea of Ron having a 'seer' gift, with the cavat that his gift only comes out in the jokes. That would allow JKR to drop hints, but leave them so vague and uncertain as to avoid the issue I mentioned above. I think it would be hysterical if all of Ron's 'predictions' that he makes in jokes come true by the end of the series, because (1) it is something only those die-hard fans (like us) would catch (I love inside jokes!), and (2) it gives further validation to an aspect of JKR's world (Divination) without subjecting us to it further (and causing the problems I mentioned above).

If Ron does have said gift, I hope it is never expounded upon (No scene were Trelawney/Firenze/DD tells Ron that he must have the gift), but left up to the readers to discover on their own.

P.S. NoVeil (Denise), you have beautiful children. Kosh goes scrambling for a digitized picture of his kid



Gabrielle D - Sep 11, 2003 12:47 pm (#72 of 1957)
Edited Sep 11, 2003 1:47 pm

you really do, Denise.

As to Ron being a seer, no... i dont think so. I think that Ron has that dumb "wow, i can't believe that really happened" kind of luck.

I also agree that he is going though that typical guy stage. He'll get over it... hopefully.

later days



Matt Allair - Sep 13, 2003 9:33 am (#73 of 1957)

You know TGF, it's all relative. While one person's Avatar might be heavenly for some, another person's Avatar might seem like a disgrace.

;-)

Whatever Avatar you use, that works for you, is the most important thing. To each their own. :-)

By the way, I really love the Jack Sparrow character, great movie!

:-)

Personally, Ron will always remain one of my all time favorites.

Matt



Denice- Sep 16, 2003 6:32 am (#74 of 1957)

Wow, I used to think I was a great fan, and I have read each book at least 3 times. Still, I NEVER noticed Ron predicting anything - how blind am I??? Can you give me any examples of when that happened?



Lenka - Sep 18, 2003 9:25 am (#75 of 1957)

I remember that tea leaves part, where he predicted Harry will win lots of monny ("great, you can lend me some") but be very miserable.

It actually happened at the end of GoF.

Smile

Lenka



Caitlin McCoy - Sep 18, 2003 11:38 am (#76 of 1957)

That's right Lenka. There might be others but that's the only one I can think of.



S.E. Jones - Sep 18, 2003 2:06 pm (#77 of 1957)
Edited Sep 18, 2003 3:07 pm

Sometimes his so called "predictions" aren't predictions so much as uncanny guesses. For instance, in CoS, when Harry asked why T. M. Riddle got an Award of Special Service to Hogwarts, Ron suggested "Maybe he got thirty OWLs or saved a teacher from the giant squid. Maybe he murdered Myrtle...". Of course, as it turns out, Riddle did murder Myrtle and then blamed Hagrid for releasing the creature that did it and got the award for that.... So......



Madame Librarian - Sep 18, 2003 2:36 pm (#78 of 1957)

Didn't he dream about being on the Quidditch team? Was it a dream or a smart aleck remark in Divination class? Someone did mention all of Ron's "predictions" on an earlier thread. I'll try to locate it.

Ciao. Barb



S.E. Jones - Sep 18, 2003 2:39 pm (#79 of 1957)

He mentioned during Divination class in OotP, when they were interpreting dreams, that he doesn't usually remember his dreams but that he happened to remember one he had where he was playing on the Quidditch team.....



Lenka - Sep 19, 2003 2:05 pm (#80 of 1957)

I never noticed the Myrtle one before... hmm.. Maybe I need to read the books again?



S.E. Jones - Sep 19, 2003 2:12 pm (#81 of 1957)

Hm, you know, someone actually made a list once when we were just starting to discuss Ron's uncanny guessing ability. Does anyone know what happened to it?



Sly Girl - Sep 19, 2003 4:09 pm (#82 of 1957)

I believe that was on Annex number two...not sure if it was the Ron thread or a thread that was separate...



OkieAngel - Sep 19, 2003 8:40 pm (#83 of 1957)

Do ya'll remember when Ron was looking into the Mirror of Erised?? He saw himself as Head Boy winning the quidditch cup shaking DD's hand. It seems that he is well on his way to achieving his hearts desire, does it not? Does that make him prophetic? I don't think so. Is DD a seer because he said no one will get him socks for Christmas, choosing to gift him with books instead?

I am going to reiterate my opinion that to expect Ron to become the "seer" we were promised seems highly unlikely.



Madame Librarian - Sep 20, 2003 5:06 am (#84 of 1957)

Okie Angel, I know we're all having loads of fun with color type, but on my screen that aqua was hard to read. The pale colors just fade into the beige, mottled background. Maybe there's a spell or charm at work.

Could all of us be aware of legibility as we post. I hate to miss good ideas.

Thanks, everyone!

Ciao. Barb



Lenka - Sep 20, 2003 11:49 am (#85 of 1957)

I think Ron isn't a seer, but the fact his jokes come true is a really clever litterary device. JKR is simply a genius. What else can I say?



Denice- Sep 22, 2003 12:22 am (#86 of 1957)

Thanks for giving me all these examples, now I know what you mean!

I agree with Lenka, though, I think it's just another example of JKRs marvelous sense of humour!



Becky Palmer - Sep 22, 2003 3:47 am (#87 of 1957)
Edited Sep 22, 2003 4:50 am

Ah, the good old Weasel King.................

Does anyone else here think that the Brain Room incident was completely weird? I think it's one of the most bizarre incidents in the entire HP series so far. We read that one Ron got ahold of the brain, it began wrapping it's tentacles around him - first his arms then the rest of his body (could they be thoughts or memories? I hope the Dr Ubbly's does the trick and that Ron doesn't now possess the thoughts and memories of the vicious brain!

Of course, Madam Pomfrey treated this by using Dr Ubbly's Oblivious Unction. Ron had no evidence of injury apart from bruises on his body. Yet he's taking an "Obliviousness" potion. I wonder what exactly the brain did to him. I'm gathering that the Obliviousness Potion Ron is receiving is hopefully preventing his own thought process from becoming intertwined/intermingled with those of the brain.

I know JKR has stated that she had to put a lot of things in OOTP so there won't be a "Where did that cme from?" when she re-introduces them later. I think the brain incident might be one of them.



Dr Filibuster - Sep 22, 2003 10:59 am (#88 of 1957)

Becky,

You make some good points..a group of us have been speculating about this very brain thing on a thread called "thoughts can leave deeper scars" further down the list.



Griffin - Sep 29, 2003 9:25 am (#89 of 1957)

As there is already a separate thread on the “brain thing”, I hope I will not offend anyone by asking a question that has already been asked. Reading the recent comments on the “Vote” thread (a nice light hearted thread) I am a little confused by people’s beliefs that Ron is an excellent strategist. I have read the earlier comments on this subject and found that it was only discussed briefly and that the only explanation given for this belief was the fact that Ron is excellent at chess.

My question is:

Other than the life-sized game of chess in the P/SS, when has Ron ever come up with a decent plan or strategy?

If people wish to ignore this change in direction, I will hopefully catch the subject when it comes around naturally.



schoff - Sep 29, 2003 9:33 am (#90 of 1957)

There's all the regular-sized chess games he wins, too. I think they're mentioned up to GoF. Others I can't think of right now...



Madame Librarian - Sep 29, 2003 9:35 am (#91 of 1957)

Griffin, you make a good point. I agree that for the larger plotline of the story, Ron is the "go-along," sidekick character, but he is a good chess player, and that kind of strategy--moving players around, anticipating an opponent's movement or possible plays--is exactly the skill a team captain needs, and is not necessarily the same skill as plotting and scheming in DE vs. Order, student vs. prof, House vs. House situations.

Ciao. Barb



A-is-for-Amy - Sep 29, 2003 11:34 am (#92 of 1957)

I find it funny that Ron is very good at Chess, and seemingly terrible at disecting situations where those skills could actually be put to good use. He always seems to be throwing out wild theories to explain strange events, but when it is all laid out in front of him on the chess board, he is great at figuring out what is going on... maybe the next time a strange situation arises (as they always do), they should draw him a diagram.

I think that Ron didn't act dumb so much as he was self-centered in this book. He missed the "dogging" clue because he was busy stuffing his face, etc. I was beginning to think that he had A.D.D. after a while, then reminded myself that he is just a fifteen year old kid, after all.



Griffin - Sep 29, 2003 12:26 pm (#93 of 1957)
Edited Sep 29, 2003 1:27 pm

Sorry Madam Librarian but I will have to disagree for two reasons, both arise from personal experience.

Not too long ago I was in the British Military. My experience of the chess players I met (some very good, some average and some bad) was that they had a lot of trouble transferring their skills from a game to the world outside. Their performances on exercises (Military games) were no better or worse than non chess playing soldiers.

A little (controversial) history. Chess may have come from Persia as early as the 7th century or as late as the 10th century. It is believed to be a tool for teaching military strategy to Persian army commanders. The main problem today is that the world has changed so much (especially the way in which wars/battles are fought) that many of the lessons once gained from the original “tool” have no direct comparison. As such it is extremely difficult to transfer strategy from the game to a real life situation. Since as I suspect (still waiting on any examples) that Ron has not shown the ability to do this in the five years at Hogwarts, he may never be able to do this.

Secondly (with reference to him becoming Quiditch captain), since I was an avionics technician and expected to advance quickly through the ranks, we were taught many of the requirements of a good leader. In the simplest of terms (so as not to take up to much time) a leader must be the cohesive force in the group, and the driving force behind their efforts. He needs to form a group into an effective team that works as one. One of the best ways to do this is by “leading by example”. Another important trait is to be open to suggestions and not think that they have all the answers. While Ron may be able to use his chess experience to devise strategies, he lacks many of the other, more essential qualities of leadership. Harry has already shown leadership, he is the best Quiditch player in the school (lead by example), and after OoP I think he will be more willing to listen to others. (This last paragraph is much more complicated than this, but I have rambled on for too long already.)



timrew - Sep 29, 2003 1:58 pm (#94 of 1957)

I quite agree, Griffin. A computer can be taught to be a genius at chess. But it takes intuition to take the 'unknown path' through the strategy.

Computers are getting cleverer and cleverer - but I don't think yet that they're capable of matching a human when it comes to 'lateral thinking'.



Madame Librarian - Sep 29, 2003 2:09 pm (#95 of 1957)

Ok, Ok, you guys, you win. You both make a solid argument as to why Harry would make a better captain. But--I'm going to stick my neck out here a little (and I'm short enough as it is, so be merciful), I can see JKR writing it so that Ron becomes captain because:

a) She, too, may not grasp the fine distinctions Griffin made about the transference of the skills of strategy. Many people don't really understand that, especially if they themselves are not good at strategy games. Haven't a clue as to whether she plays. Anything come up in interviews?

b) It just might make for better drama if Harry is once again looked over for a plummy honor that he really wants.

Ciao. Barb



timrew - Sep 29, 2003 2:15 pm (#96 of 1957)

I'm not disagreeing with you, Barb. If you look at the 'Vote' thread, I chose Ron for Quidditch Captain.

I think he'd be ideal for that. Just not ideal for dealing with the Dork Lard.



Griffin - Sep 29, 2003 4:05 pm (#97 of 1957)
Edited Sep 29, 2003 5:06 pm

Fair enough, points made and taken. Just as in the ‘Ship – ‘Ship thread, choices aren’t made on facts alone but are influenced by are personal feelings and hopes. It makes for good discussions though.



Hem Hem - Sep 29, 2003 4:13 pm (#98 of 1957)

You got that right. A perfect example of this is the "Lupin is James" theory, where some people feel there is enough evidence to make the theory very valid, while others feel that the theory is pointless and silly. Both sides are strongly convinced that they're correct... I guess that's just how a nice controversial theory sometimes is.



Susurro Notities - Oct 5, 2003 7:19 pm (#99 of 1957)

The discussion of Ron's potential for strategy and leadership led me to think about what Ron's talents are. He is presumably good at chess strategy. He is great at bating Hermione. He can be studious when motivated, as he was when he did research for Hagrid regarding a defense for Buckbeak. He is developing a talent for quidditch. He is funny and has a good sense of humor.

Might he also have undiscovered talents. Manipulation, leadership qualities such as developing group cohesiveness and motivating others, and producing results with what is available would be a few examples of what might be learned from growing up as the youngest son in a poor family.

Ron could very well develop into a richer character that might command the respect of a quidditch team and be a major attribute in VWII.



Jesspy - Oct 5, 2003 10:47 pm (#100 of 1957)

What I am worried about is the foreshaddowing of Ron's death in GOF, especially since the foreshaddowing of Sirius' death was so true.

To make myself clear, Sirius was the first to rise from the table of 13 at Grimauld Place, he died.

Ron and Harry rose together, does that mean that Ron will die? Harry will die? Or is it void was they rose together?

To me it is pointing to something happening to Ron. Sob
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Lenka - Oct 6, 2003 3:26 am (#101 of 1957)

Hey, I never noticed that! cool!



Ricky Warner - Oct 6, 2003 4:41 am (#102 of 1957)

I didn't notice that either. My heads hurting.



lys potter - Oct 6, 2003 7:58 am (#103 of 1957)

Griffin - I think there are other facts that point to Ron being a better choice than Harry for quidditch captain, most of them not having to do with his chess playing ability. Ron has spent his whole life following the sport, studying it, playing when he can. He's bound to be familiar with plays and offensive/defensive strategies. Harry has very limited exposure to the sport and, as a seeker for the past five years, has spent most of his time flying around the pitch separate from the other players, working on his own strategies. I think that since Ron found his confidence in OotP, and since Fred and George won't be there to overshadow him, he'll do an excellent job of leading by example. In SS/PS Ron did show real leadership in winning the chess game under such immense pressure, but I think his greatest strength in terms of quidditch is his knowledge of the sport.

I agree with Timrew that Ron would not be able to transfer these leadership qualities over to fighting Voldilocks, because his knowledge and ability in that area is not as strong.

As far as something bad happening to Ron, he did try to sacrifice himself in SS/PS during the chess match. It didn't end up taking his life then, but perhaps another situation will arise where he again bravely tries to do sacrifice himself for the greater good, but doesn't survive?



Mordicus Egg - Oct 6, 2003 8:53 am (#104 of 1957)

Jesspy--

I am relatively sure that Sirius was not the first to rise from the table at Grimmauld Place. I think it may have actually been Ginny, who is described as sitting on the floor, rolling butterbeer corks to Crookshanks. Ginny would have had to rise from the table in order to move to the floor.

Griffin --

Excellent, cogent comments regarding transfer of strategy from a simulation (chess match, military exercize) to real-world situation.

Barb --

Despite Griffin's excellent --and I think valid-- points, I too would love to see Ron as Quiddich Captain. I wonder if the Ron of OoP was shown to be (how did you put it? I'm on the next page and I don't want to page back and risk losing what I'm writing) kind of dense, is because Harry is ahead of Ron in the cognitive/social development curve. Let's face it: Harry has had much more in his life to force him to "grow up fast."

Jeff



Griffin - Oct 6, 2003 9:08 am (#105 of 1957)
Edited Oct 6, 2003 10:09 am

Ok, fair points but based a lot on future developments of his character which may or may not happen. As I tried to point out, Harry does not need to be an expert on Quiditch, since a good leader will use the talents of the team (Ron’s knowledge etc.) to the team’s best advantage. This said, Harry has shown a keen interest in Quiditch himself i.e. Quiditch through the ages, Flying with the Chudley Cannons (the book Ron brought him) and perhaps more.

Ron has a tendency of “throwing a tantrum” at times which may be very disruptive. I am a little concerned that this has already caused tension between Ron and Harry. Harry now holds back on some thoughts and ideas that he may otherwise have shared with Ron.

The over-riding question for me is; to date has Ron or Harry shown more leadership skills?

I understand that a lot of people do want see Ron become captain. I myself find it hard to remove my personal biases from my arguments (but I do try). A big problem that I have is that these are Harry’s books, yet lots of people would rather see Ron enjoy the cream while poor Harry is left in despair. At some point he will have to be allowed some success, or he might just have a mental breakdown!



Jesspy - Oct 6, 2003 4:44 pm (#106 of 1957)

Mordicus Egg - I thought that the general concensus on the forum was that Sirius was the first to "rise" from the table. I haven't got OOP with me at the moment so can not say for sure. See the thread could be have predicted Sirus' death.



vanish forever - Oct 7, 2003 12:40 am (#107 of 1957)

Ron has frequently been jealous of the attention Harry receives. Somewhere down the line it may get to him a little too much, and he may turn traitor. - what say? - vanish_forever



Ricky Warner - Oct 7, 2003 6:05 am (#108 of 1957)

Thats likely, but I reckon their friendship is too strong. Ron has also been jealous of everyone in his family (that whole 'I am the odd one out of the family' complex he had), but he is too loyal. Ron is a very loyal character. I reckon even Malfoy is loyal, but his loyalties are in the wrong toilet (?).



S.E. Jones - Oct 7, 2003 6:15 am (#109 of 1957)
Edited Oct 7, 2003 7:18 am

I don't really remember Ron throwing many tantrums in OotP, his overall personality was much more mild and laid back in this book. As far as seeing Ron "enjoy the cream while poor Harry is left in despair", I don't think that would have to be the case, I don't think Harry would be that destroyed by it. And I agree that Harry will eventually have to achieve something for his own sanity if for nothing else, and I think this will lead him to becoming Head Boy in Book 7.

Now as far as Ron and strategic skill goes, please remember that there is a difference in being a strategist and a leader. I also keep thinking of the description of Harry and Ron's first chess game. "Ron also started teaching Harry wizard chess. This was exactly like Muggle chess except that the figures were alive, which made it a lot like directing troops in battle." (PS12) So JKR herself makes the comparison. I think directing players on a quidditch pitch would be much easier to relate to chess skill than actually directing troops in a battle so I think we will get to see Ron's skill used in some practical fashion before the series ends....



Ricky Warner - Oct 7, 2003 6:27 am (#110 of 1957)

Wow. You are a thinker. You really think about it and put it into, you know, thought.

(Way too late for this!)



Sly Girl - Oct 7, 2003 7:01 am (#111 of 1957)

Harry has that 'Youngest Seeker in an Age' thing, which you must admit, he has enjoyed. He also has the D.A. of which he is the leader and the members admire and look up to him in, even that annoying Zacharius Smith, who gave it to him begrudgingly at one point, And he has that whole 'he's the only who can vanquish the Dark Lord' thing as well. Hardly is his coffee all black, Gryffin. (yes, you could argue Harry doesn't want the last bit, but truth is he has it and he will be successful, as he is at most everything else)

The true matter here of course, is whether or not Harry even wants the Quidditch Captain. He didn't even realize he wanted Prefect until Ron got it before him. Which in and of itself makes me believe Harry didn't really want to be Prefect, he was just put out that Ron got something before him. You could also argue that Harry has special talents that Ron will never have, and so therefore I don't see why some of us can't wish a little glory to fall Ron's way- especially since Ron obviously loves Quidditch (maybe more so than Harry) and what else will Ron have, at the end of the book? Ron has not only his brother's shadows to overcome but the one created by his best friend as well.

There was no mention of jealousy by Ron in book 5 (Hermione jealousy doesn't count), although there was some by Harry. I think this is natural between two boys who are friends like Ron and Harry. I do not think it means that either party will betray the other.



Jumbo - Oct 7, 2003 8:37 am (#112 of 1957)

"Tell me about Sam, Frodo wouldn'nt have gotten far without Sam"

Sorry couldn't resist the comparison, and if its a clue them Ron will be the one who has the fullest life to lead when the war is over. But it would be nice if he got some glory of his own soon.

Jumbo



Ricky Warner - Oct 7, 2003 3:15 pm (#113 of 1957)

Ron Weasley can be translated to "Running Weasel" in another language. Running Weasel was a warlock in the Sixth Dynasty — he was utterly brilliant when it came to strategies and never lost a game of chess. He died when a rat that had been dyed yellow by his soldiers, for fun, earlier that day, knocked over a lamp in his palace — which of course chared it to the ground and resulted in the death of Running Weasel.

I just thought it was interesting. Remember they wanted to turn Scabbers/Pettigrew yellow in the first bok? Maybe Scabbers is going to be the downfall of Ron.



megfox - Oct 7, 2003 3:22 pm (#114 of 1957)

Actually, Ricky, this ahs been debunked as a false "legend"...someone made it up and posted it on the Internet. It actually has been mentioned on other Ron threads on the Forum.



Ricky Warner - Oct 7, 2003 3:33 pm (#115 of 1957)

Really. I thought it might, it looked a bit sus. Oh well. Off to searching for realmeanings. Well I have a real one which everyone probably has heard- That Harry means Ruler, and Ron means sidekick of Ruler.



S.E. Jones - Oct 7, 2003 9:00 pm (#116 of 1957)

To be more precise, Harold means "Army Ruler or King" while Ronald means "Advisor to the King". Hmm, another clue that Ron will be giving strategic advise to our little hero?



Ricky Warner - Oct 8, 2003 2:27 am (#117 of 1957)

Yes. That is a very likely theory. Ronald is great with Strategy.



LilyP - Oct 8, 2003 7:32 pm (#118 of 1957)

Harold means "Army Ruler or King" while Ronald means "Advisor to the King".

Now that's good. JKR continues to amaze me daily! Wow, she's good.



Sly Girl - Oct 9, 2003 2:07 am (#119 of 1957)
Edited Oct 9, 2003 3:10 am

Except for the fact that Harry isn't short for Harold. JKR has repeatedly said it's Harry. Just Harry.

Ron however is short for Ronald, so I'm not sure where that leaves it. As much as I adore Ron, I don't see him as the advisor type.



Susurro Notities - Oct 9, 2003 5:30 am (#120 of 1957)
Edited by Oct 9, 2003 6:38 am

Historically names that derive from other names are thought to have the same meaning. Although JKR says that the name is just Harry this name is derived from either Harold, Old English, meaning "leader of the army" or from Henry,derived from the Germanic name Heimerich, meaning "home ruler".

The history of Ronald is as follows: Ronald is a Scottish form of RAGNVALD, a name introduced to Scotland by Scandinavian settlers and invaders. Ragnvald is a Scandinavian cognate of REYNOLD. Reynold is from the Germanic name REGINOLD, composed of the elements ragin "advice" and wald "rule".

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Ricky Warner - Oct 9, 2003 7:14 am (#121 of 1957)

Now you Sussiro continue to amaze me.



Susurro Notities - Oct 9, 2003 7:22 am (#122 of 1957)

Thank You - I can cut and paste with the best of them!



S.E. Jones - Oct 9, 2003 3:17 pm (#123 of 1957)

Precisely Susurro, even though the name Harry now stands on its own, it was originally derived from Harold or Henry and thus carries the same meaning....



Doris Crockford - Oct 13, 2003 2:50 pm (#124 of 1957)

And also, in PS/SS, Vernon thinks Harry's name could possibly be Harold(or Howard or Harvey).



::StinkerBell:: - Oct 28, 2003 8:26 pm (#125 of 1957)

hhhhmmmmmmm.......



timrew - Oct 30, 2003 4:20 pm (#126 of 1957)

But as JKR has said in interviews, "It's Harry - just Harry".



Tomoé - Oct 30, 2003 10:12 pm (#127 of 1957)

timrew said : "But as JKR has said in interviews, "It's Harry - just Harry". "

I agree with you, I think that one is a coincidence.

I didn't realize that Ron was a good strategist, but that's exactly what they in the DA. To be honest, the fight down in DoM was a mess, the right hand didn't what the left was doing. They really need some good basic strategy to handle common fighting situation.

I also like the idea for Ron to become the Captain of Gryffindor, because he know a great deal about quidditch and he could prove to be a good leader when everything is up to him alone.

But, if he fulfill what he saw in the mirror of Erised, will Harry die and will DD receive a pair of socks (likely for Dobby ^_^ )?



::StinkerBell:: - Nov 7, 2003 3:02 pm (#128 of 1957)
Edited by Denise P. Nov 7, 2003 3:09 pm

I wanted to ask~ When Ron makes his Uranus joke, the first time I took it like he wanted to copy from her paper..."Can I have a look at Uranus too Lavender?" like he wanted to see the answers to the homework..... Did he really mean the planet? Please tell how it was supposed to be taken.....



S.E. Jones - Nov 7, 2003 3:15 pm (#129 of 1957)
Edited by Denise P. Nov 7, 2003 3:42 pm

Well, Snuffles, I don't think it was meant to mean the planet (the planet's name has certain, er, connotations). It's a rather crude joke but the sort a thirteen/fourteen year old boy would make. Does that answer your question?



Lenka - Nov 8, 2003 12:43 am (#130 of 1957)

I never thought of that, SE. Than again, I actually looked Uranus up in my dictionary to see if it meant something other than the planet, and I suppose my dictionary is a bit too... eh... delicate and polite.

I've always thought Ron was basically being ironic, and pointing out how stupid it was for Parvati (or was it Lavender?) to fuss over a stupid planet. It's like he was saying: 'Yeah, I just love divination.'

Lenka

PS: But then again, some of us had wondered whether JK really meant the "you want something else skinned, Malfoy?" joke, of whether it's just the twisted minds of some of the male readers....



S.E. Jones - Nov 8, 2003 11:29 am (#131 of 1957)

I think he was referring to skinning Malfoy if he openned his big mouth again....



Gina R Snape - Nov 8, 2003 6:45 pm (#132 of 1957)

I've finally gotten round to reading this thread and the first thing people discussed was making Ron a Prefect. Sorry to bring you all back, but I had a comment on that.

In OoP, Lupin mentions being made Prefect in order to keep an eye on the other Marauders. Well, what about Ron? He and Harry and Hermione get into loads of trouble in the first 4 books. What if, by making Ron a Prefect, he'd have to start behaving himself and keeping an eye on Harry along with Hermione?

Also, Ron and Hermione may have been recommended after Snape decided upon Draco, Perhaps McGonagall (and Dumbledore) felt they needed to even the playing field a bit or else they would be somewhat defenceless against Draco as a Prefect.



Lenka - Nov 9, 2003 1:44 am (#133 of 1957)

I like Moody's interpretation... "Dumbledore must think you can withstand the major jinxes"... lol



Tarnole - Nov 4, 2003 11:56 am (#134 of 1957)

Ron's ability to see into the future

Am I just crazy or does Ron actually make a correct prediction? I think I remember Ron seeing himself as the quidditch captain. This was at a time when Ron was not even on the team. I think he was actually in Prof Trelawney class trying to just make something up but he may have had a dream and was using that dream for Trelawney's class.

I think it is in GoF but it may be in PoA. Did he make this prediction correctly? OR am I just over-analying this whole thing and he just having normal teenage boy dreams of playing professional sports.

comments?



Madame Librarian - Nov 3, 2003 4:01 pm (#135 of 1957)

Tarnole , good question. We've discussed this quite a bit on the "Ron" thread. Also, use the search function on the teal bar, enter the terms "Ron" and "seer." Lots of good stuff to read.

Ciao. Barb



Choices - Nov 3, 2003 6:10 pm (#136 of 1957)

I think Ron saw himself as captain in the Mirror of Erised.



Tarnole- Nov 4, 2003 9:07 am (#137 of 1957)

thanks to both of you. i am new to the forum although i tried to use search to find this topic, i am still learning.

cheers.



mischa fan - Nov 4, 2003 11:55 am (#138 of 1957)

Tarnole , if you would please go to this thread Lexicon Steve "-- Philosophy of this Forum - Please Read!" 9/7/03 1:46pm and read about the Philosophy of this Forum, you will find that we ask you to use proper capitalization, as this help members who do not speak English as a first language to understand posts better.

Also if you haven't done so already go to Haggis and Irn Bru "-- Tell About Yourself (new)" 8/29/03 11:38am and introduce yourself to everyone.

Welcome to the forum.



Mrs. Sirius - Nov 10, 2003 10:40 pm (#139 of 1957)

It has been suggested many times here in Forum but also in a book, the Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of HP, I believe, that Ron is never right unless he is joking. I just found this in OoP pg 718 (American:

"And from now on,I don't care if my tea leaves spell die, Ron, die-" Harry laughed at this.

Oh my, I hope it isn't correct that Ron isn't right unless he's joking. I really don't think this bodes well for Ron. Ron's "seeing" in front of the Mirror of the Erised, has been shown to come true. Will his father become Minister of Magic? We'll see.

Did JK throw in these casually mentioned foresights as a true predictor of the future? I hope not. (I did a search on this particular prediction and didn't find any, if this is a repeat please remove or combine as appropriate)



schoff - Nov 11, 2003 12:21 am (#140 of 1957)
Edited by Nov 11, 2003 12:39 am

To me, Mrs. Sirius, there's a lot of hints that Ron might be the Weasley to die. I avoid this topic because I really don't like thinking about it!

Consider:

Ron is the one to sacrifice himself in P/SS.
Ron is willing to face death to go into the Chamber of Secrets with Harry
Ron (and Harry) are the first to rise at the infamous "13 at dinner" scene in PoA.
It is Ron who is hurt in PoA.
Uh, can't think of anything right now for GoF. I'll get back to it...
Ron makes the "Die, Ron, Die" quote in OoP.
Again, Ron is seriously injured in OoP.
Ron is always sitting next to Harry when Trelawney "predicts" Harry's death. I believe Trelawney sees the truth, but misinterprets the evidence. I think she is seeing someone die, but possibly not Harry. (Although I also think it's possible she might be seeing her own death)


I think there were some other possible hints, depending on how you perceive the scene. Maybe if I get braver I'll look them up. This list is just off the top of my head.



Mare - Nov 11, 2003 4:02 am (#141 of 1957)

"And from now on, I don't care if my tea leaves spell die, Ron, die-" Harry laughed at this.

Thank you Mrs. Sirius, I have been looking for that quote so long. And some point I gave up and figured I had dreamed it or something, because surely something that important would have been brought up on the forum.
But here it is, and it doesn't look good for Ron....
But there is a way around it. He uses the word "die" like some-one would want him to die. He doesn't say: I don't care if my tea leaves spell I'm going to die.
Maybe some-one with a better knowledge of the english language could tare that sentence apart grammatically?

Bye the way does the lexicon, do we have a list of all of Rons "jokes"?



S.E. Jones - Nov 11, 2003 10:30 am (#142 of 1957)

There was a list once, somewhere, but I think it got lost in the great migration. I've been looking for it. If anyone sees it, please, please, let me know....



Madame Librarian - Nov 11, 2003 11:12 am (#143 of 1957)

OK, Mare, I'll give it a try, (once and editor, always an editor, eh?):

The line "die, Ron, die" is in the imperative, meaning that whoever is saying it is giving Ron an order, not describing something that is happening. It could be something that a DE might yell as he begins a killing curse and points his wand.

It could very well be that it is a prediction, but that the next bit would go, "No, don't think so, you rotten git. Take this instead," shouted Ron as a powerful bolt of red flashed from his wand. Almost instantly it hit the cloaked Death Eater smack in the chest, and he crumpled to the floor with a resounding thud.

So, you see, there are predictions and then there are predictions.

Hope this makes you feel better.

Ciao. Barb



Mare - Nov 11, 2003 11:17 am (#144 of 1957)

Yeah but the tealeaves giving Ron the order to die doesn't make me feel too good...



S.E. Jones - Nov 11, 2003 2:58 pm (#145 of 1957)

Hm, wasn't he saying something along the lines of, "I won't bother with Divination ever again, even if the tea leaves say...."? ("And from now on, I don't care if my tea leaves spell die, Ron, die --- I'm just chunking them in the bin where they belong." (OotP c31, p718, US)) First of all, I think Ron was being quite serious about this, he thinks Divination is a bunch of bunck and so will refuse to pay any attention to it (so, don't worry about the joking thing). However, I see this as yet another strange coincidence. See, Ron has a tendency to completely ignore the subject, yet he tends to make correct predictions. Even after finding a room full of real prophecies, even after Hermione (the level headed critic) changes her view of Divination, Ron still thinks it's bunck. I think that Ron will become a seer in the next book because he is the one who constantly, consistently refuses to believe in the possibility of Divination... It would just be so ironic....



Mrs. Sirius - Nov 11, 2003 9:44 pm (#146 of 1957)

Ooh schoff, I didn't even think of all those. The other thing about Ron and divination, (I do repeat myself often here), in PoA in one of their first divination lessons, Ron says something about see Harry with a bag (a lot) of gold. This of course does come to pass in in GOF...



Lenka - Nov 12, 2003 4:30 am (#147 of 1957)

I wonder what a sheep apearing in tea leaves means... or was it a hippo? Smile

Edit: I'm refering to what Ron saw in Harry's tea leaves in PoA.



Hogwarts Christian - Nov 12, 2003 6:47 am (#148 of 1957)

Hi. I'm new to the forum, and as far as I can tell, this is a new question. By my fourth reading of Philosopher's Stone, I began to notice something odd about our first introduction to Ron. Rowling makes a point of the smudge of dirt on Ron's nose on the journey to Hogwarts. I believe the smudge is mentioned at least three times. It is even in the movie. What is the significance of this smudge of dirt? Is it just a symbol of the Weasley's poverty? Is there something else going on there? Just curious.



Lenka - Nov 12, 2003 6:56 am (#149 of 1957)

I think it was a beautiful idea of JK's. The smudge lets us see a lot of people's personalities and relationships. First, Mrs. Weasley tried to rub it off, causing Ron to blush and mutter "Mum, gettoff", then one of the twins sais: "Does icle Ronnie have something on his nossie?" showing Ron has to bear ridicule from his brothers because he's younger (this is explained more in that same chapter when Harry and Ron talk), than Harry noticed the dirt was still on Ron's nose (don't know what than means, except that Ron got himself embarased if front of everyone else for no reason, and finally Hermione tells Ron his nose is dirty, making her personality less likable at that point.

Just my two knuts.

Lenka



mollis - Nov 12, 2003 7:18 am (#150 of 1957)

I think Harry not saying anything about the smudge of dirt is a pretty good indication of his character. Harry isn't going to be the type of boy who judges other people based on their appearance. "If Ron's dirty and doesn't have any money, so what. Ron seems like a nice guy and I'm gonna be his friend." Heck, given Harry's childhood up to that point, he's probably thrilled to have someone talking to him!

I think you are very right Lenka, the smudge of dirt was a brilliant way to illustrate several character's personalities in very little time.
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Sly Girl - Nov 12, 2003 10:50 am (#151 of 1957)

Which was why it was in the movie! Perfect set up between Hermione and Ron too- him being dirty and her pointing it out. Speaks volumes about their future 'relationship'.



Carina - Nov 12, 2003 11:53 pm (#152 of 1957)

I was thinking that too, Christian. That little smudge seems to be something more than just dirt (Have you read Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter? I'm surprised the smudge is not mentioned there.)

But since I can't figure out it's grander purpose, I have to agree with Lenka. Brilliant way to develop numerous characters. Simple, yet effective.



mollis - Nov 13, 2003 7:03 am (#153 of 1957)

By the way, I am in the process of re-reading OOTP for the umpteenth time and something caught my eye. When HRH are walking up to the greenhouses for herbology and they meet Ginny and Luna walking out, Luna has a smudge of dirt on her nose. Not sure that is means anything other then Luna got dirty in herbology, but I thought I would stick it in here, since we have been talking about the dirt on Ron's nose.

Do you suppose there is any connection?



phydeux - Nov 13, 2003 8:07 am (#154 of 1957)

I never noticed that.



Hogwarts Christian - Nov 13, 2003 8:14 am (#155 of 1957)

I've enjoyed all the responses to the post about the smudge on Ron's nose. At the very least, it is clear that Rowling used it as an excellent way of showing us more about the personalities of the relevant characters. mollis, I did notice the smude on Luna's nose. Not sure whether there is a connection there. Herbology would be the likely place to simply get dirty. I guess we'll see.



fidelio - Nov 13, 2003 8:30 am (#156 of 1957)

I think JKR is using this to enlighten us about characters, just as she did with Ron's smudge--Luna doesn't care about the smudge, any more than she cares about whether people like her bottle cap necklace and the orange radishes as earrings. Lavender and Parvati were laughing at her--they are determined to look their best and attract boys, from what we've seen in GoF and the rest of OotP. This just helps to set Luna apart from the crowd, and we can see from people's reactions what they will be like. Lavender and Parvati write her off as weird, Ginny thinks she's odd but doesn't make a big deal out of it, and so on. It may be a clue that Harry, just as he did with Ron, will look beyond the surface, and judge people on more than just the first impression that they make on others, based on their appearance and possessions.



Hogwarts Christian - Nov 13, 2003 1:37 pm (#157 of 1957)

Fidelio, that is a good take on Luna's smudge. Also, as you point out, Harry looks beyond the surface. This is perhaps a foreshadowing of the fact that at the end of the book, Harry can't talk to even Ron or Hermione about Sirius' death, but only Luna.



Killian - Nov 15, 2003 11:51 am (#158 of 1957)
Edited by S.E. Jones Nov 15, 2003 1:25 pm

Ron and the Mirror of Erised

I moved this to the Ron Weasley thread as Ron was the subject of the post. -S.E. Jones

This may have already been a topic, but I don't have the time to go through everyone to look for it so if anyone can either direct me to another forum about it or anything else, that's fine.

After reading OotP, I realized that the Mirror of Erised, while only showing a person's desire, might have also half predicted a future for Ron. Ron's initial thought in the book is that it is predicting the future, but then of course Harry tells him it can't be because his parents are dead. Yet in Book 5, there are a lot of things leading up to that image he saw. Ron managed to get the prefect badge, and he ended up on the Gryffindor quidditch team. While I don't really think he'd become the Head Boy (man, that would be strange!) there is a chance he might become team captain. After all, Dumbledore didn't make Harry a prefect because he didn't want to add any extra responsibility to him, so he's not likely going to become the quidditch team captain. Ron, however, was the hero of the team at the end of the year, and because of his sudden improvement he was able to seriously help their team in getting the cup. So, any thoughts as to this?



Carina - Nov 15, 2003 11:49 am (#159 of 1957)

The best place to start looking for a discussion on Ron is the "Ron Weasley" thread (Sly Girl "Ron Weasley" 11/13/03 1:37pm) There has been some discussion over there as to the possibilities that Ron my be a seer as well as the meaning of what he saw in the mirror.



Essidji - Nov 15, 2003 1:39 pm (#160 of 1957)

I can't believe Ron is a seer, since he seems to take divination as a sub-subject and, according to what I recall from him, never showed any interest for "paranormal" things. On the opposite, he's fond of chess-playing, which refers to a more cartesian/factual/concrete mind. The reason why he saw these things in the mirror and why they happened is not related to seer ability according to me.

They happened because he wanted them so much to come true that he surpassed himself (even unconsciously, maybe).



milti girl - Nov 16, 2003 4:13 am (#161 of 1957)

There's also a "Ron" discussion thread in the before-august-discussions archive. There we've discussed about the colour of Ron's eyes too, and future predictions about Ron's relationships. Lots of interesting stuff there.



freshwater - Nov 16, 2003 12:10 pm (#162 of 1957)

When I first read someone's prediction that Ron would die, I could not buy it....nor did I want to admit it. But, since then I've read other posts mentioning Ron's divination joke: "I don't care if my tea leaves say, "Die, Ron, die..." and how he is usually wrong unless he is joking...and the Unofficial Guide's info on how the drool of the three-headed dog (the one in Greece, anyway) is supposed to be poisonous: remember it drooling on Ron before they jumped through the trapdoor in SS?....and how Ron sacrificed himself in the chess game (also SS) so that Harry could go on to confront LV. Now I have this sinking feeling that, in the final confrontation, Ron will somehow sacrifice himself so that Harry can proceed to deal with LV. What do you think?



Peregrine - Nov 17, 2003 8:46 am (#163 of 1957)

It may be too obvious to kill off Ron. It’s always the best friend/sidekick who winds up dying. I think she’s more likely to kill Harry than Ron. But I was also convinced she’d never kill off Sirius, so what do I know?



Killian - Nov 22, 2003 5:58 pm (#164 of 1957)

S.E. Jones, I don't mind at all that you moved it.

I really didn't think that the best friend or sidekicked always ended up dying. I mean, I've seen it a few times before, but not that often. And as for Ron sacrificing himself so that Harry can move on to deal with Voldemort . . . it just seems to be a bit of a stretch. It's true, Ron has definitely proven that he's more than willing to in the past, but I just don't see her killing him off. Maybe I like him too much to accept it, I don't know, but something tells me that she's not going to kill him. Call it instinct, if you will, since there's probably nothing to support my idealistic little hope but that.



Maollelujah - Nov 23, 2003 4:39 pm (#165 of 1957)

the Unofficial Guide's info on how the drool of the three-headed dog (the one in Greece, anyway) is supposed to be poisonous: remember it drooling on Ron before they jumped through the trapdoor in SS?....

I don't remember it drooling on Ron before they jumped. I don't think Ron is going to die, I honestly think there are only a couple deaths left in the books, and one of those is Voldie.



Killian - Nov 23, 2003 5:22 pm (#166 of 1957)

"I honestly think there are only a couple deaths left in the books, and one of those is Voldie."

Maollelujah,

There are a lot of arguements in regards to whether or not Voldemort is actually going to die, and as to just how many others will die in the future books. Rowling has said a few times that more people will die, but no one can be certain as to who it will be. I merely said that I hoped that Ron wouldn't die, even though there's a lot of evidence working against me, such as the whole sidekicks having a tendency to get knocked off, which I realized does actually happen a lot, and the fact that Ron has already shown a willingness to sacrifice himself in previous books (the chess game in the Sorcerer's Stone, for example).



Dan Wells - Nov 28, 2003 10:44 am (#167 of 1957)

Isn't it Ron that keeps getting a red shirt (maroon anyway) from his mother? That cannot be a good sign.



Sly Girl - Nov 28, 2003 11:04 am (#168 of 1957)

I may be off the mark because of the Turkey overload from yesterday, but what the heck does Ron getting a 'maroon' sweater have to do with anything?



timrew - Nov 28, 2003 11:16 am (#169 of 1957)

Maybe its to hide the bloodstains, Sly! Which begs the question, does she also buy him brown corduroy trousers?



Sinister Kittens - Nov 28, 2003 3:48 pm (#170 of 1957)

lol! Maybe it's to hide the gravy?



Gina R Snape - Nov 30, 2003 7:43 pm (#171 of 1957)

"Red shirt" is a tv term for characters who are going to die. It's based on Star Trek. Every time a new minor character came on in a red shirt, you knew he was going to die...



Sly Girl - Nov 30, 2003 9:11 pm (#172 of 1957)

Ah yes, thank you. Useless Ensign #25. I believe Galaxy Quest used that ploy as a joke. Well, at least Ron isn't useless and he has a purpose other than to take up space.



Peregrine - Dec 1, 2003 9:00 am (#173 of 1957)

Let’s just hope Ron is the exception to the red-shirt rule, like Scotty.



SJ Rand - Dec 4, 2003 9:08 am (#174 of 1957)

I don't think the maroon sweaters have any more significance than the corned beef sandwiches. His mother is doing things for seven kids and, as good a person as she is, sometimes forgets what a particular child prefers.



Denise P. - Dec 4, 2003 9:22 am (#175 of 1957)

As the mom of 8, you don't forget things like that really. I know which of my kids likes certain things. If I am making...a baked potato, I don't make it for 2 since I know they don't like them.

I am sure Mrs Weasley decided somewhere along the line that maroon is Ron's color. I color code my kids as well. Nicholas gets a blue cup, blue toothbrush, his reminders on the calender are blue etc. If I knitted, I would probably knit him a blue scarf. The other kids have colors too (for those interested: green, purple, pink, orange and yellow..the oldest two who are 21 and 20..we expect them to know their own stuff and not argue over a cup)

I think Ron would object to the jumper no matter what color it is.



S.E. Jones - Dec 4, 2003 11:14 am (#176 of 1957)

I don't know about the forgeting the food thing, Denise. To this day, my mom still can't remember that I don't like mushrooms or raw tomatoes or... well the list goes on.... and she's constantly trying to get me to eat them. Of course, it could just be her trying to get me to like them despite myself, maybe that's what Molly's doing?



SJ Rand - Dec 4, 2003 11:49 am (#177 of 1957)

>As the mom of 8, you don't forget things like that really.

You don't, and I applaud that. But, similar to Sarah, my own mother, who didn't have nearly that many people to worry about, insisted on every one of my birthdays that she'd remembered to got my favorite cake, strawberry shortcake. Only I don't care for that type of cake and never did. She meant well, but she got confused. It was someone else in the family who loved strawberry shortcake.

But I'll take your point that Mrs. Weasley didn't forget only because she had seven children, and for all I know she may well have color coded them as talk about.

Either way, I've never seen maroon associated with death. White, yes. Black, sure. Maroon? Blood dries to a maroon color, but most people still associate red with blood. So, since Harry, Ginny, and Ron are all on the Gryffindor Quidditch team, with their red robes, they all die.

Or probably not.



I Am Used Vlad - Dec 4, 2003 1:02 pm (#178 of 1957)

Wow, eight kids. I don't think I'd remember their names if I had eight kids.

Back to Ron. I never thought the color of his sweater was meaningful. Like Trelawney, we can find omens of death everywhere if we want to.



milti girl - Dec 13, 2003 10:46 pm (#179 of 1957)

I thought I was a Ron fan, and I've honestly read every single line he's ever said some 40 times over. But I still don't see where he makes correct predictions. All that stuff about him being a Seer and maybe the 7th son of the 7th son just goes over the top of my head because I don't understand where he's made his 'predictions'. Someone PLEASE put a link to a list or something!!

PS I just got my hair streaked red on Friday!! It's soooo cool! It looks so sweet! Now I know what it's like to have red hair like Ron!!!!



Czarina - Dec 15, 2003 6:52 am (#180 of 1957)

Seventh son? Er, Ron is the SIXTH son: Bill, Charlie, Percy, Fred, George, Ron. That's six. Where are people getting the "seven" from? Ginny is the seventh Weasley, unless at some point there was a kid who died or such, which is not hinted at in the books.

Ron has a fair amount of lines in the series. Inevitably, he will probably make a correct prediction. Anyone can! Maybe that's just Rowling's way of making Ron seem intelligent, since he seems to be more of a comic relief/loyal sidekick in the story. Not to say that he is stupid, because he isn't.



milti girl - Dec 16, 2003 10:20 am (#181 of 1957)

"unless at some point there was a kid who died or such, which is not hinted at in the books"

Yeah, I've read theories of where people think there might have been a son between Charlie and Percy who ended up dying, making Ron the seventh son. Although I don't believe in that theory much, because how was anyone to know that the 'fourth' son (the son after Percy) would actually end up being two of them (Fred and George)? Others think Ginny is the Seer, because she's the actual seventh child, and seventh children are supposed to have Seeing powers, but frankly I haven't seen any evidence of either Ron or Ginny being able to See. Maybe I'm just short sighted! Smile



Brandon Christopher - Jan 2, 2004 2:36 am (#182 of 1957)

Okay I read about the first 100 or so posts but seeing as it's now 2:30 in the morning I decided to just post and read the rest later so sorry if I'm saying stuff that someone else said.

Let me get this out first: Ron is my least favorite character from the books. This is really saying something because before GoF came out he was far and away my favorite character. But after GoF came out I really detested him; but I am still objective in my arguments contrary to what some people have been saying. Many people have been saying that I've let my opinion of Ron get in the way of objectively reading the books. But I came up with these arguments before I hated Ron so these are objective contrary to popular belief.

Okay let me say that Ron is immature, don't give me all that "he's only sixteen stuff." Because Harry, Neville, Dean, and Seamus are only sixteen also and they're not as immature. Sure Seamus had his little Harry hateing spat but he got over that and that was more or less influenced by the media so I don't really consider that maturity. Sure Harry is finally letting out his anger but at least he's showing a change which is more than Ron is showing. In the last book the only change I saw in Ron was that he was quieter unless he was in yet another argument with Hermione. You're probably wondering why I'm saying that Ron is immature right about now aren't you? Well I'm getting to that; Ron is probably the most materialistic Weasley. He is the most materialistic, Percy is power hungry and ambitious not materialistic. Ron has shown his immaturness through this constantly. He continues to desert or make Harry feel sad because of this. First in fourth year when he completely forsaked Harry and consistently throughout the rest of the books when he constantly reminds Harry how poor he is. Every time Ron tells Harry how poor he is he forgets that he has everything that Harry wants. He has a loving family, a real home that he can go to, and love. Harry has none of this and Ron is a complete jerk and horrible friend. It is no wonder why he wasn't sorted into Hufflepuff; because he definitely isn't loyal to his friends. I read in earlier posts that people thought Ron was brave but I whole-heartedly disagree with that. He refused to go apologize to Harry when he deserted him in fourth year and I think that it was because of the fear that Harry wouldn't accept him again. Personally I think that Ron is lucky to have a friend like Harry who will take all his abuse and disloyalty without giving much back. The more I read the books the more I see similarities between Malfoy and Weasley. And as I said before in other threads I wonder if she made Ron's nickname "weasel" for the same reason that Malfoy was turned into a ferret.

That's enough for now and I realize that this will probably start a lot of controversy and I will be flamed to no end. But these are mostly fact based not just my opinions so if you flame me it just makes me happy that the Ron lovers out there couldn't handle the facts about their favorite character.



Sinister Kittens - Jan 2, 2004 6:08 am (#183 of 1957)

Brandon - wow, now that's what I call a rant! ;-)

Firstly, Ron is not my favorite character and it is certainly true that his petty jealousies do not always make him an endearing character. But I did not really think that Ron talks about being poor all of the time. I don't have my books with me at the moment (I think my boss would spot them!) but I seem to recall, somewhere, in GoF Ron saying that he 'hates being poor' (para-phrasing) the fact that this statement is even mentioned would seem to indicate that both Hermione and Harry view this exclamation of woe as out of character. Also, surely the twins are the more materialistic members of the Weasley Clan?

Just my two knuts... *EDIT* I hope this makes sense.



popkin - Jan 2, 2004 6:39 am (#184 of 1957)

Ron does hate being "poor" (I don't think he really is poor - he's got everything he needs and is going to the finest school of witchcraft and wizardry under the finest headmaster the school has ever seen - paraphrased). Getting over the desire to be free from poverty is a big stumbling block for Ron, but becoming rich is not Ron's greatest desire. We saw that in the Mirror of Erised. Ron's greatest desire is to be accomplished and recognized for his accomplishments - to step out of the shadows into the limelight.

Desires change, though. If Ron found himself suddenly without his loving family, I think his greatest desire would be to see his family restored.



Devika - Jan 2, 2004 8:27 am (#185 of 1957)

Well Brandon, on this thread I think I will agree with most of what you say except not in such strong terms. Ron does seem to be the most immature in the trio. I think his attitude stems from his relative poverty, and his successful brothers. This doesn't justify his attitude at any rate, but I guess it is being accentuated when he is at Hogwarts. Here he is surrounded by a rich and famous Harry(ignore Harry's troubles)and an intelligent Hermione who the teachers like. Here he has no way to stand out. But I agree that he brings out this frustration in the wrong manner. He has not shown himself to be the best of friends to Harry, though he has his moments when he is loyal too. I think more than anything, their friendship hinges on the fact that he's the first person Harry met on the train and Harry is fascinated by Ron who comes from a wizard family. I know this sound bad, but I have a strong feeling that a major factor that has kept Ron with Harry is Harry's own persona... he is usually the first one to refer to Harry's celebrity status in any situation. The one that I can remember offhand is when they meet at Diagon alley in PoA, it is Ron who says that Harry wasn't caught by the ministry for blowing up his aunt because he is Harry Potter. That said I don't think Ron is all that bad-he just seems to be a really dissatisfied kid who ends up expressing his dissatisfaction in the wrong way. I agree with what Popkin says that deep within it is his family that matters most to him.



A-is-for-Amy - Jan 2, 2004 8:32 am (#186 of 1957)

Wow, Brandon! Great way to start up the Ron thread again!

I like Ron. I totally understand why you see things the way you do, but my view is a little different. I see Ron as closer to Neville in personality than to a Malfoy. I think he is insecure and hasn't "found himself" yet. Harry already knows who he is and what he is bound for, and Hermione has found her anchor in books and learning. Ron is the youngest son of a pretty impressive family. I think that part of his obsession with money springs from that fact that making a large amount of it might be the thing to distinguish him from the rest of his family (Plus the fact that it really stinks to never have anything new). I think he would like to have the notariety and clout that the Malfoys have, but with out all that pesky evil.

Just my opinion!



virgoddess1313 - Jan 2, 2004 9:43 am (#187 of 1957)

I think Ron just needs to look around and see that though his family may not have a lot of money, he is quite rich in others way.. his family for instance (I'm sure Harry would agree with this!). He does have a lot of growing up to do, but I'm sure that someday he will get over his jealosies.



SJ Rand - Jan 2, 2004 10:02 am (#188 of 1957)

Ron is dirt poor. His parents provide ample food, but little else that isn't handed down and in disrepair. That's not a wonderful feeling, and resentment of others who aren't poor is the least of the ways this can manifest itself.

Giving away a sweater Molly knitted for him is awful? Call me awful, because I would too.

Yes, it's very thoughtfully hand knitted, year after year after year... in a color that Ron keeps telling her he hates. Handmade or not, it lacks any of the "thought" which is "what counts" for gifts. Remember that saying? Molly is doing the work, but she forgot that "thought".

Seamus is more mature than Ron? Are we talking about the same Seamus who avoided Harry from the start of fifth term because his "Mam" didn't trust Harry after reading The Daily Prophet? Bit of a mother's boy from my perspective.

That said, I've also posted that I think Ron will betray them for money, and I still do. It seems inevitable.

I don't think he'll do it because he's a bad person, he isn't, but you can only live in poverty, within a society that surrounds you with wealth, for so long before something snaps. It snapped with Percy. Fred and George too. Charlie and Bill got as far from their parents as they could when they went to work. If Ginny ends up with rags for her formal robes, her outlook is going to get a bit bleak as well.

Look at their home. Look at Hogwarts. They live in a house that, Harry observes, looks like it's held together with magic. At Hogwarts they eat off of gold plates. Talk about culture shock.



Weeny Owl - Jan 2, 2004 10:16 am (#189 of 1957)

Brandon:

Interesting point about Ron having everything Harry wants, but conversely, Harry has a lot of what Ron wants. They both seem to see things in each other's lives that would make their own quite different.

Not wanting to be poor doesn't mean Ron is materalistic, per se.

Ron didn't refuse to apologize to Harry, actually. He was going to apologize, but Harry stopped him.

I think Harry is lucky to have friends like Ron, Hermione, and Ginny who bore the brunt of his anger during all of OotP.

I've always liked Ron. It can't be easy growing up with five older brothers. He has a great deal of pressure to live up to their accomplishments and still try to find his own place. Even Hermione said that Ron might relax while playing Quidditch after George and Fred left. He's had Percy wanting him to be the perfect prefect and the twins telling him being a prefect is lame. No wonder the kid is confused a lot of the time.

I really don't see why anyone would flame you. It's just a matter of reading the same books but coming away with something different. My views are probably going to be quite different from yours since I'm female and thirty years older than you.

Ron may not be an ideal teen, and he does make mistakes, but I truly believe his heart is in the right place and that he tries to be a good friend and caring son and brother. He may not always succeed, but he does care.

Ferret Boy and Ron are both purebloods but have such totally different lives and viewpoints. I don't see Ron ever being the slime that Draco is.



Denise P. - Jan 2, 2004 10:23 am (#190 of 1957)

Ron is dirt poor.

No, Ron's family is certainly not dirt poor. They may lack in material things that his friends have but they are not poor. I would consider them as lower income but I think it is more a case of them being poor money managers and a family that doesn't emphasis material things.

They have a home, they have clothing, they have food. Their father holds down a job. They are able to get their school supplies. Yes, they use hand me downs and second hand things but as far as we know, they are not on any kind of wizarding welfare system.

For all that Ron whines continually about not having things and being poor, he does have things. Poor people don't go blow a wad of money on a broom because a son is made prefect, poor people don't take trips overseas even with a load of won money. Poor people do not behave the way the Weasley family does.

For being so poor, Ron never lacks for spending money. In fact, if you look at it, Ron doesn't lack for anything except in his own mind. He is the only one griping about the lack of things. Perhaps he would be better off looking at what he does have rather than what he doesn't. The glass is always better when it is half full as opposed to half empty.



SJ Rand - Jan 2, 2004 11:02 am (#191 of 1957)

NoVeil4Me: >>They have a home, they have clothing, they have food. Their father holds down a job. They are able to get their school supplies....

And they're still poor. Ginny gets books that are falling apart. Ron gets robes that are threadbare, and the brooms they use have straws that are broken and stick out in odd directions. Christmas presents are food and handmade clothing. The family owl is almost dead. Ron's first Hogwarts "pet" is also a seemingly half dead rat handed down from his brother. Their house is falling apart.

>Poor people don't go blow a wad of money on a broom because a son is made prefect, poor people don't take trips overseas even with a load of won money.

The broom is a massive inconsistency unless there was some money left over from Arthur winning that Daily Prophet contest, which is where they got the money for the trip they took. Very irresponsible of them, by the way.

Remember when they went to the bank? There was one galleon in the Weasley vault.

>For being so poor, Ron never lacks for spending money.

Most of the time I see money mentioned, Harry or Hermione are treating all three of them. If your friends almost always treat, you're bound to have something of your thirty knuts leftover for the candy store, no?

>In fact, if you look at it, Ron doesn't lack for anything except in his own mind.

I don't think we're reading the same books. I see constant references, not made by Ron, about how badly off the Weasleys are. Harry wants to give them money, for goodness sake! And not from what Ron says, but from what Harry sees. He feels sorry for the poverty he sees, and this is a kid who grew up getting old socks for his birthday, and all his clothes coming from his very fat cousin.

Hey, sue me, but this is a materialistic world, and the Weasleys either lack basics in that area or the ones they have are in very sad shape.

Ron's parents do the best they can with what they do have, but that doesn't make getting taunted over wearing worn out second hand robes any easier to take, does it?

>The glass is always better when it is half full as opposed to half empty.

If the glass started out empty and was added to until it was at the halfway point, then it's half full. If it started out filled to the brim and then half the contents were used, then it's half empty. That's neither optimism nor pessimism, just logic.



Denise P. - Jan 2, 2004 11:21 am (#192 of 1957)

Harry's perception of their situation is colored by Ron's view. Harry wants to give because he can and has the means to do so. I have not seen where there are constant references made to the lack of material things by anyone other than Ron. No one besides Ron makes comments about the family lacking. Ginny doesn't seem to have a problem for all that she has second hand books.

The only one taunting Ron over his clothing is by Malfoy. Ron could be wearing brand new custom made clothing and Malfoy would still taunt him over something. Malfoy lives to annoy Ron and he knows the fact that RON feels the lack is something that will always be a button to push.

The Weasleys are not living on the streets, scavanging trashcans, standing on the corners with a sign that says "Will work for food" or anything else that indicates that they are poor.

You are right, we are not reading the same books because there is no indication to me, in any way, that the Weasleys live in poverty.

Ron is the one who feels he is from a poor family. I don't see where anyone else in the Wizarding World, besides the Malfoys, who also think they are poor. For being a poor family, they sure seem to run in influential circles and not lack for much of anything from what I have read.



SJ Rand - Jan 2, 2004 12:16 pm (#193 of 1957)

Ron wasn't too broke to buy anything off the food cart when we first met him, and too defensive about it to want to take anything that Harry had bought.

Percy didn't say to Arthur, during their fight, that Arthur's lack of ambition was the reason "why we've always been - you know - not had a lot of money".

Molly's face didn't "fall slightly" when Ron asked for a broomstick because they're so expensive.

The twins haven't been obsessed with making money since book three.

And Padma Parviti's eyes didn't "linger on the frayed neck and sleeves of (Ron's) dress robes" when they met for the ball.

Ginny not crying about having a book that's falling apart doesn't mean that having a book that's falling apart is all the rage in the wizard world.

The definition of poor in the western world doesn't generally include begging on the streets.

Perhaps we might agree that this discussion is getting off topic for this thread though?



Dan Wells - Jan 2, 2004 12:57 pm (#194 of 1957)

Popkin, Ron's desire to be free from poverty is certainly not a stumbling block. It's a strength that with maturity and focus could provide Arthur and Molly with a secure retirement and Ron's own family, when he has one, with earned material comforts.



timrew - Jan 2, 2004 2:37 pm (#195 of 1957)

Denise said, "Malfoy lives to annoy Ron and he knows the fact that RON feels the lack is something that will always be a button to push."

This is a fault in Ron (and Harry) that I've mentioned before. They both make themselves easy targets for Ferret Boy. Ron has only to hear how poor his family is to send him off the deep end; and Harry is just the same. They both fall for Malfoy's taunts every time.

They should both take a leaf out of Hermione's book. When the Slytherin girls hold up the Daily Prophet article, and taunt her about her romance with Harry, she laughs at them. That's how you treat a bunch of morons!

Ron and Harry seethe and simmer, and then land themselves in deep trouble time after time, and for what? Because Ferret Boy has called them names! In terms of maturity, Hermione is years ahead of the pair of them.



Brandon Christopher - Jan 2, 2004 4:54 pm (#196 of 1957)

I will stay on topic but Tim, girls do mature faster than boys so Hermione should be a lot more mature than both Ron and Harry.

The simple fact that Ron thinks he's poor makes it seem that he is. I think that some people imediately thought he was poor because of the way he descrbes himself. If Harry had thought he was poor before he was introduced into the wizarding world then we would have all said "yes, he is poor." But because Ron has a family it seems that he is not poor all of a sudden. What type of poverty are we talking about? Ron is wealthy beyond Harry's wildest dreams. The only reason Ron thinks he's poor is because he only has Harry and Hermione to compare himself to. And although we don't really know anything about the Grangers it does seem like they are at least slightly well off.

And Tim, although I do like Hermione's idea of just ignoring the other girls I don't think that it is really working out that well for her. With Ron's strategy you get your anger out right away; Hermione just sits and stews about it for awhile. She may not show it but it is probably affecting her; I think that some of the times she snaps at Ron it is because of trying to bottle up her anger. I may not agree with the way that Ron reacts most of the time but I think that he does have a better idea about it then Hermione. Sometimes it feels like she is taking all her anger out on him, and as much as I dislike him no one deserves that from a friend.

Okay I feel like I need to address something that was brought to my attention. I was told that some people were getting offended by my posts because I was so opinionated. I would like to apologize to anyone who felt that I was being offensive, this was not my intent. I may not realize that I am getting so emotional in my posts so some times so a swift kick... will wake me up. I will definitely try to calm down my posts and try not to offend anyone in the future. I will still dislike Ron but I will not bash him anymore. Again, I am sorry to anyone I offended.



popkin - Jan 2, 2004 7:11 pm (#197 of 1957)

I read once that when Agatha Christie was a young girl she thought her family was poor because they only had a few servants. Many times poverty is a state of mind.

Ron does not see the riches that surround him - he's too busy comparing his posessions with his neighbor's. And he doesn't see that Harry is swimming in his hand-me-downs, or that he had nothing up until Hogwarts. Does he notice the other students who live in circumstances similar to his own? Is Luna better off than Ron? I don't think so.

There are many, many people in this world who would consider themselves wealthy indeed if they had Ron's life.

Dan, you are right when you say that poverty is not necessarily a stumbling block for Ron - if he can use his attitude to make a better life for himself and his family. However, believing himself to be impoverished, and failing to count his blessings, has come between Ron and happiness over and over again. If he doesn't adjust his attitude, he will never be satisfied or happy, no matter how wealthy he becomes.



Gina R Snape - Jan 2, 2004 9:59 pm (#198 of 1957)

I think if the Weasleys were truly dirt poor, Molly would get a job.

The Weasleys are not rich. But they are not destitute. They are certainly rich in love. And Ron always has spending money for Hogsmeade trips. Plenty of families stretch their budgets. I only ever recall Harry treating on the train, not at Hogsmeade.

I think Harry notices their relative poverty because he feels somewhat guilty about his very full vault. He loves his friends and wants to share.

I agree with Tim that Ron and Harry always take the bait. I think they are being typical boys and I hope they outgrow it.



Mrs. Sirius - Jan 2, 2004 10:37 pm (#199 of 1957)

I don't think that Ron "hates being poor" is just from a lack of the material things in life.

He also suffers from a poverty of attention or accomplishments(at least in his mind). He has always lived in the shadows of his older brothers' accomplishments and with their hand me downs. For a young man still struggling to define himself to the world, let alone to himself, he has a hard time finding distinguishing characteristics not yet taken by his family and now his best friend. Povery is an available distinction.



Matt Allair - Jan 3, 2004 12:56 am (#200 of 1957)

I can't speak for others but thank you Brandon for that apology. I think everyone has to keep in mind that the opinions expressed on this site are subjective. Certainly there are certain things in the books that are facts, yet most of we are dealing with is speculation.

This site is simply meant' for fun folks, there's no reason for ruffled feathers over the liking or disliking of certain characters. There's no right or wrong here, one persons opinion doesn't make them a bad person, they just have a different point of view.

Amazing, isn't it? How a difference of opinion can cause such trouble over trivial issues. Let's simply respect our differences and agree to disagree.

Woo Woo... It's the 200th post!
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Gina R Snape - Jan 3, 2004 7:54 am (#201 of 1957)

Maritza, you raise a very interesting point.

Ron has precious few ways of standing out. Ginny is the only female. The twins are, well, twins. Percy was Prefect and Head Boy in a 'proud line of prefects' and without the older brother influence of the twins. What has Ron got?

Complaining about his poverty and his relative invisibility in the family is a way of creating an identity for himself. He doesn't strike me as a generally happy fellow to begin with, so it makes sense that he would grouse as a way to individuate.

But again, I don't think the Weasleys are living in poverty. When I think of poverty, I think of children with no money for shoes. I think of parents who pass up on eating dinner so their children can eat. I think of families who eat cereal packets and milk or spaghetti and ketchup for dinner because meat and vegetables are too expensive. Molly makes fancy sauces out of her wand and has more than 2 pans in her house.

Hand-me-downs are a practical way for families to stretch a budget. In a muggle school, Ron would be the one complaining because he didn't get the $500 Air Jordans. He sees the Malfoys, and indeed he sees the excess at school, and wonders why he hasn't got that at home. He just needs to grow up a bit. He is not the happiest nor the most mature kid of his group. But he does ok. He's funny, and he might be psychic!



SJ Rand - Jan 3, 2004 9:58 am (#202 of 1957)

Folks, the "let's be thankful for what we've got" stuff is certainly inspiring, and I'd personally all but kill to have had a family life like they have, but it doesn't address the basic fact that the Weasleys can't afford what everyone else can.

Gina, hand-me-downs are one thing. Having to purposely go to second hand shops or buy (very) used items is quite another.

If they aren't poor, they certainly do a very good imitation of it.

I may be way off here, but I think I'm seeing a trend of rallying support for Molly because some folks identify with her, and others like backing up the people who do.

I've already posted examples, from the books, noting the Weasley's relative poverty, I even posted where it was Percy who said it. Unfortunately they've all been ignored each time someone wanted to come out in favor of saying the Weasleys aren't poor.

So you folks tell me, what was the purpose of Rowling having Harry see that there was only one galleon in their vault? Why did Rowling tell us that Padma was looking at the frayed neck and sleeves of Ron's robes? What's the purpose of the family owl being so old it can barely make a delivery, do the Weasleys like torturing animals? Why does one of the twins ask, before getting onto the train in PS/SS: "How come Percy gets new robes". Not Ron, the twins. Not Air Jordans, robes. Why does she point out that Ginny's "new" book is falling apart? Why does Harry notice their house looked as though it had once been a large stone pigpen, but extra rooms had been added here and there until it was several stories high and so crooked it looked as though it were held up with magic....

Whether we want them to be or not, Rowling is painting the portrait of a family that is poor.

This is the same Rowling whose every word is checked and rechecked and rechecked again on this forum to see if there's some possible clue. About whom we routinely see people saying things like "Well, why would she have mentioned Baldie Trunnions twice in PoA, and again in GoF if he isn't going to play an important role in future books?"

I don't see the ambiguity here. Rowling isn't giving us clandestine clues or vague passing references, she's coming right out and saying it.



Weeny Owl - Jan 3, 2004 10:17 am (#203 of 1957)

I think there's a difference between being poor and being destitute.

The Weasleys would, in the Muggle world, be part of the working poor. They have the necessities, but if something happened to Arthur, the family would have serious problems. They would survive, though, because they have other people who care about them. Lupin being one who reassured Molly in OotP that no one would starve.

Ron is human, and by being human, he has faults. That doesn't make him a bad person or one who will automatically turn to the dark side because of those faults. I truly don't see him as betraying Harry or the cause. If he did, it would not be deliberate, but would be something he was tricked into doing much the same way Harry was tricked into going to the Department of Mysteries.

JKR has a way of showing us that people don't have to be perfect to be worthwhile and good. Each character fighting against Voldie has at least one flaw or weakness. Some have things they obsess over and can't quite get past... Snape and his hatred, Ron and his lack of money, Hermione and her studying and bossiness, Neville and his lack of confidence.

I'm still wondering what changes we might see in Ron because of the brains in the Department of Mysteries. I only hope that the brains that attacked him didn't leave something dark behind.



Pen Name Only - Jan 3, 2004 10:31 am (#204 of 1957)

Percy didn't say to Arthur, during their fight, that Arthur's lack of ambition was the reason "why we've always been - you know - not had a lot of money".

Not a lot of money does not make a family poor, it simply means they lack the amount they would like. We have never seen a truly poor family in the books.

The twins haven't been obsessed with making money since book three.

Which means nothing at all. Some people want money regardless of their individual worth (in monetary terms). I believe the twins would be the same even if they had all the money they could possibly want.

And Padma Parviti's eyes didn't "linger on the frayed neck and sleeves of (Ron's) dress robes" when they met for the ball.

Again, this proves absolutely nothing other than the fact that Ron took the lace off and didn't bother to find someone to make it look nicer.

the basic fact that the Weasleys can't afford what everyone else can

What a bunch of hogwash. There is NOTHING to support that they CAN'T afford it but plenty to support the family chooses to NOT buy things. This is not a basic fact, this is something that YOU believe. Obviously, others disagree with it. You only provided ONE direct quote that even hinted that the family lacked and it was by Percy. As a child, albeit an older one now, he has no grasp yet of what is poor and what is not. How many adults here can honestly say they thought as children they were poor only to realize now, as adults, that they were not? I can count myself in that category.

If this were indeed a impoverished family, I sincerely doubt they would:

# invite 2 extra mouths to feed for the summer holidays
# send gifts to 2 extra children at each holiday
# travel overseas with the entire family
# use Floo powder
# have Molly stay at home rather than work

Your points probably were ignored. I have to defend this theory because although you have shown you won't let an argument go until you have the final word, I am not willing to let it be ignored.

Ron has chosen to identify himself as poor. Poor is a relative state and Ron is not there.



SJ Rand - Jan 3, 2004 10:35 am (#205 of 1957)

Weeny Owl: >>I think there's a difference between being poor and being destitute.

The Weasleys would, in the Muggle world, be part of the working poor.

Okay, that I can live with. And I'll add that I went too far when I wrote that they were "dirt poor". That was a bad choice of words.

Ron is human, and by being human, he has faults. That doesn't make him a bad person {omitted}

JKR has a way of showing us that people don't have to be perfect to be worthwhile and good. Each character fighting against Voldie has at least one flaw or weakness. Some have things they obsess over and can't quite get past... Snape and his hatred, Ron and his lack of money...

True. And for all of that, he was still overjoyed when he got that new broom, going on and on about all it's great features. He didn't cry that it wasn't a Firebolt or even an old Nimbus 2000, he was just thrilled with having it.

I'm still wondering what changes we might see in Ron because of the brains in the Department of Mysteries. I only hope that the brains that attacked him didn't leave something dark behind.

Dumbledore had assured Harry that they would all make a full recovery and suffer no lasting damage but Madame Pomfrey did have trouble with the marks the thoughts left. It was mentioned that the, um, Oblivious Unction was having some effect.

That's a good question since I don't think we have any idea of why those brains were being preserved.



A-is-for-Amy - Jan 3, 2004 11:14 am (#206 of 1957)

"Dumbledore had assured Harry that they would all make a full recovery and suffer no lasting damage but Madame Pomfrey did have trouble with the marks the thoughts left. It was mentioned that the, um, Oblivious Unction was having some effect."

When I read Dumbledore's assurances about no lasting damage, I began to wonder if the brains had 'damaged" Ron. What if what they did to him wasn't damaging at all, but left him with some positive attribute that might help him out at some later point.



SJ Rand - Jan 3, 2004 11:29 am (#207 of 1957)

Pen Name Only >>What a bunch of hogwash. There is NOTHING to support that they CAN'T afford it but plenty to support the family chooses to NOT buy things.

And your supporting evidence is?

You strongly imply familiarity with my style of debate, yet you chose to sneak in behind a brand new handle. Care to come out from behind your veil and debate your points face to face? Or do you prefer to attack the poster rather than the post, and need the anonymity to do so without fear of repercussions?

Amy Alpin: >>What if what they did to him wasn't damaging at all, but left him with some positive attribute that might help him out at some later point.

I thought about that myself. I hope Rowling doesn't just let it go.



Gina R Snape - Jan 3, 2004 12:01 pm (#208 of 1957)

Rand, I assume you don't venture over to the FFF, or you might recognize Pen Name Only, who did not make up a new name just to play games with you.

I for one am growing tired of engaging in or reading these debates with you. I am sure to be kippendoed (I would kippendo this post if I were a Mod, frankly), but I don't know where else to put this. My apologies to Kip, Denise, and all other powers that be. I come here to relax and lately the Lex isn't relaxing. And I feel this needs to be said...publicly.

There is a way to debate and argue in a friendly manner. Sometimes we refer to canon. Sometimes we put things out from the top of our heads. People here frequently come up with different interpretations of the same scenes. And we have FUN doing it. My defence of Snape is a labour of love, for example, not of constant academic research. Oh joy if I persuade people along the way. Oh well if I don't.

You often make interesting points, but use a pointed stick to make them. You always seem to find a way to make it into a challenge. The culture of the Lex has always been one lacking in animosity.

I agree with Pen that you like to have the last word. And I'm glad s/he said it.

If you are trying to stir up debate, it's not working. If you are trying to stir up emotions, you are sure to not last on this board I would predict. If you are trying to imitate Snape, well, you lack his sense of style.

And for the record, no one debates that Ron's family hasn't got a lot of money. But I'm soooo glad you "approve" of the working poor definition. How generous of you.



Matt Allair - Jan 3, 2004 8:11 pm (#209 of 1957)

You know, I almost hate to add to this debate but I feel I should. There's a couple of things I'm confused over how the words 'Poor' and 'destitute' are being defined, if certain posters would like to clarify their definitions, I'd be happy to read them.

Certain posters seem to be making the argument that the Weasley's are not as poor as we are lead to believe. That from Ron's point of view, he's exaggerating. So I guess we need to define what 'working poor' means. I also suspect that the reason why Pen Name Only makes his assertions, comes from a very westernized view of Poor vs. Rich. I do agree that the Weasley's are not destitute, but I just don't buy the dismissal that the family isn't poor.

One thing that hasn't been brought up is the fact that the Weasley's seem to own their house, 'the Burrow'. There's no evidence that the family is renting, so therefore, Arthur Weasley probably inherited the house. Much in the same way that Sirius Black inherited '12 Grimmauld Place' or the Malfroy's inherited Malfroy Manor. Some people seem to have the impression that to own property or a home means that someone is financially well off. While that's true in the majority of cases, It's possible to be poor and own property.

So what to I define as poor? Someone who is working paycheck to paycheck as opposed to someone, for example, who can pay for their rent two months in advance. There are many cases of middle class poor folks and I would define the Weasley's as middle class poor. Some other evidence;

In book one (PS), Arthur and Molly leave the kids at Hogwarts to visit Charlie at the Romanian Dragon Reserve over the Christmas holiday. A well to do family wouldn't leave the rest of the kids alone over a holiday so the parents could visit an older sibling. Unless they had to make the compromise to do so.

In book two (COS), The entire family visits Egypt to visit Bill after winning prize money. This is one of the few opportunity's for the family to take a summer vacation. Wouldn't a well to do family have the option take vacations at their leisure?

In GOF. It is through Arthur's connections that they secure tickets to the World Cup. I had the impression that the cost for Arthur was minor, that is for the kind of tickets they secured. There's no evidence that they enjoyed any comfort perks while at the world cup. Any they did enjoy, had to with Arthur working for the ministry. That doesn't make him a well to do man.

Another point is the assertion by some, that Ron's desire to earn more money than his father is a character weakness. They point out the number of times Ron complains throughout the series. Yet there have been moments that Fred and George complain, even Ginny. Why does one think that Percy is so ambitious to move up in the Ministry? As much as it might have to do with his own ego, I suspect it has as much to do with Percy wanting to earn more than his father.

Fred and George's desire to start Weasley's Wizard Wheeze's has everything to do with earning more money. The only exceptions that come to mind are Charlie and Bill, in their cases, monetary wealth may not be a priority. I'm simply puzzled how wanting to earn more money than their father is a character weakness. The desire of all of these characters I think helps to illustrate this is not a well off family.

Another point is the argument that a poor family wouldn't allow extra mouths to feed over the summer. I can't buy that, I have known of people who are very gracious with guest, who are working poor.

I hope this is clear enough with my muddled mind tonight. I'll be interested to see how 'poor' is defined.



Gina R Snape - Jan 3, 2004 8:46 pm (#210 of 1957)

Poor Ron. All he wants is a nice new robe and a decent broom. I hope when they all grow up Hermione gets a nice cushy job so she can support him in the manner he'd like.



A-is-for-Amy - Jan 3, 2004 8:54 pm (#211 of 1957)

Matt Allair, that was a very nice summation, in my opinion. I don't think that the Weasley family is my any means destitute, nor are they "comfortably well-off'. Their kids are not made to do without basic necessities, but do have to resort to second hand shops for many items. One of the things that stood out to me while I read Chamber of Secrets is that the Weasleys may be in debt - there was very little money in their Gringott's vault, and yet they were required to buy five children several volumes of Lockhart books (yes, I know that Harry gave his 'free' set to Ginny), plus all of the other things that Ginny needed to start her first year. Since most of the kids were still in school at the time, there might not have been a lot of hand-me-downs available to be handed down. They must have put some of that on credit, don't you think?

I think that JKR wants us to see the Weasley family as being poor, (Not destitute) and that is why the various charcters keep reinforcing this thought through out the books. I believe that there was an interview with her where she stated (about one of the books about to be released) that we would see Ron's feeling about his family's poverty. I'm pretty sure that was the word that SHE used, but I'm not positive on this.

Mo matter what our opinions about any of the characters, though, I hope that no one will "disappear" from this forum because they are offended... that's not what this forum is for. Let's just agree to disagree on certain points, and respect each others thoughts, okay?



I Am Used Vlad - Jan 3, 2004 10:04 pm (#212 of 1957)

I don't know why I'm getting into the middle of this, but since it is the only place that people are posting, I'll add my two cents.

IMHO many of the issues being brought up by various people are being over analyzed Does JKR add up the exact value of the money in the Weasley's vault before deciding on the price of any item mentioned in the books? Probably not. She may have just wanted to show us that Harry had a lot of money while the Weasleys didn't. Does the fact that the kids were left behind during Christmas break in PS/SS prove that the Weasleys are broke? Perhaps, but maybe JKR just wanted someone to be there for Harry's first Christmas away from the Dursleys.

I think we all agree that the Weasleys are being portrayed as poor compared to most of the other characters in the books, and that this obviously bothers Ron to some degree. It would be much more enjoyable for all of us if we focus on how Ron will deal with this, and less on debating the difference between being poor, dirt poor, working poor, or destitute.



Mrs. Sirius - Jan 3, 2004 10:47 pm (#213 of 1957)

How one views their poverty and then deals with it, wallow (Ron) in it or fight it (the twins), or run from it (Percy), I think is as important as any definition of the word povery. Poverty is always going to be relative. Do you measure it by the dollar (or pound or mark..) per year? or by the trappings; real poverty, latest clothes, vacations? how about by the stay at home parent how about having a job? a job that permits you to meet your living expenses without luxuries? Many people don't have the luxury of being able to get a job that will permit them to meet their daily expenses other people with income that permit them many luxuries yet still consider themselves poor. I don't think we can come up with a difinitive definition of poor because it really is subjective.

Gina, it is always a pleasure to read one of your posts, they are reasoned and reasonable.



Gina R Snape - Jan 3, 2004 11:21 pm (#214 of 1957)

Thank you, Maritza!

Unfortunately, we do not have the wizarding world poverty line to go by... (Not that the poverty line in the US is particularly useful these days, but I digress). But it would be interesting to see how other children live. Are the Weasleys the poorest pureblood family in Britain? We see Malfoy with wild excess. We suspect Snape was poor from his greying underpants. Sirius was loaded, and James left Harry a vault full of galleons. But we don't get to see much else. I wonder if Ron thinks his family is the poorest. Maybe if he knew how other families got by, he wouldn't feel the same way.



Brandon Christopher - Jan 3, 2004 11:54 pm (#215 of 1957)

I don't know Gina, from what you just described I don't think Ron would want to be compared to other pureblood families. Only one other family out of four mentioned is thought to be poor. And we're not quite sure about that one either, Snape might just prefer graying underpants. Just kidding Gina, Snape was most likely poor judging from the brief glimpse into his mind that Harry shared with us and his description while James was tormenting him. But still, three out four wizarding families being loaded; it looks like they're either rich or poor, no in-between. Of course we haven't met many other purebloods yet, but the ones that we do have knowledge about income seem to be fairly well off. The Crouches, Fudge, we have no clue about the Longbottoms yet but I have a feeling that they're somewhere in the middle. But at any rate this would not stroke Ron's ego at all.

The only thing worse than thinking you're the worst is seeing yourself compared to people you think are better. I think this is one reason why Malfoy and Ron don't get along; Malfoy is a constant reminder to Ron on how bad off he thinks he is. Personally I always thought Ron was poor, but not destitute as you guys put it. Of course that is a fine line and open to interpretation so I think Rowling is the only person that knows for sure.

Good ole J.K. always giving us so much information to go with... Oh and Gina, the poverty line is not necessarily a good determining factor for deciding who is or isn't poor. Many countries simply lower the level of income at the poverty line to make it seem like there are less poor people in their country. China did this a few years back and a few other countries as well.



timrew - Jan 4, 2004 5:59 am (#216 of 1957)

Surely each year, The Weasley family become less poor. Bill and Charlie are working, also Percy, and now Fred and George.

There have been less and less expenses for Arthur and Molly Weasley over the years; and now they only have Ron and Ginny to look after.

Also, wouldn't it take a very mean son to leave his poverty-stricken family, and not make sure that they had everything they needed? In other words, don't Bill, Charlie, Fred and George (I'll forget Percy for now!), contribute to the family coffers?

I mean, if Fred and George can treat themselves to expensive dragon skin jackets, would they do so while seeing Arthur, Molly, Ron and Ginny going short of anything?

I think a lot of the Weasleys so-called poverty is now in Ron's mind, unless he comes from a family that consists of the biggest bunch of tight-wads in Wizardom!



A-is-for-Amy - Jan 4, 2004 7:24 am (#217 of 1957)

Let's not forget, also, that the winds of change are blowing at the ministry, ans so Arthur may find that all of the years he has been held back by Fudge and his pure-blood views will be recompensated. If a new minister is pur in place (I'm REALLY thinking Mme Bones), he may well climb in the ranks, or at least get a nice raise for all of his efforts in the past.



Gina R Snape - Jan 4, 2004 8:07 am (#218 of 1957)

Brandon, I agree that the poverty line is a problematic one as it can be so easily manipulated--as you pointed out. But it still might be useful in this discussion if we had an honest one.

Ron is funny in that he complains about not having anything, yet does not accept when someone wants to give him something. He has a sense of pride and I wonder if that will serve him well or serve him grief in the future.

And, seeing as they are a pureblood family held back by Arthur's love of muggles, I have to wonder about the economic state of muggleborns. Are they discriminated against in employment (in and outside the Ministry)? Will the kids face that at the end of book 7? Ron--average student, froma pureblood family, gets a decent wage pushing papers. Hermione--extraordinary student, muggleborn, gets a job at the MoM for minimum wage testing youth qualifying to apparate?

And Tim, you make two very good points. The Weasleys must be less poor every year with every child out of the house. But still, Ron's perception of their poorness must increase as he gets older. He'll see more of the world, want more things, compare himself even to his brothers who have already left, etc.

But I doubt any of the boys would let their family starve (Percy excepted of course...). The twins deserve to purchases their dragonhide outfits (no matter how hideous ). But let's hope they are saving some money for a rainy day as well. I wonder if they will rent or purchase their own flat, or stay at the Burrow. Wow. Maybe Ron will crash at their place over the summer. That could create some interesting opportunities!



S.E. Jones - Jan 4, 2004 2:29 pm (#219 of 1957)

If I may go back a bit, Amy Alpin said: When I read Dumbledore's assurances about no lasting damage, I began to wonder if the brains had 'damaged" Ron. What if what they did to him wasn't damaging at all, but left him with some positive attribute that might help him out at some later point.

I was rather curious about this as I've often tried to figure out just what the brains may have done to him, whether the effect was positive, negative, or relatively neutral. Any ideas?



Gina R Snape - Jan 4, 2004 2:35 pm (#220 of 1957)

Well, since thoughts leave the "deepest scars" I would guess whatever those brains did was not pleasant. Maybe gave him horrible thoughts? Terrible ideas? Visions? Someone else's memories?

I hope he doesn't start taking on someone else's personality or hearing voices.



popkin - Jan 4, 2004 8:53 pm (#221 of 1957)

I'm with you, Gina. I hope we have seen the end of the brains. I'm looking forward to reading about a humorous Ron with a few normal teenage issues. No scars.

If the brains did leave a lasting scar, I suspect that it would be a single thought. It would probably be manifested in Ron's dreams, and might be somewhat evasive. I think it would also end up being useful, once HRH put their heads together and analyzed it.

Back on the poverty discussion, I think the reason JKR keeps reminding us that the Weasley's are poor (and they are, at least by Wizarding World standards) is that they will become rich when the injustices Arthur faces at work are righted. Conversely, since Lucius has been largely to blame for those injustices, the Malfoys will likely see their wealth taken away.



Devika - Jan 5, 2004 1:41 am (#222 of 1957)

I wonder whose brains they were... if it's some character we know about, well... it could get complicated!



Mrs. Sirius - Jan 5, 2004 10:13 pm (#223 of 1957)

Is there a thread keeping tabs about Ron's correct prediction? The one that stands out most in my mind is in PoA when he predicts Harry getting a bag of gold. But I was so surprised when I found this one today, SS p. 232 American

"I wouldn't mind knowing how Riddle got an award for special service..... Maybe he murdered Myrtle; that would've done everyone a favor....".

I used the search function and wasn't able to find anything but I know it's mentioned many times. Maybe an essay on Lexicon or a thread on Forum so we compare all of his predictions. I was never a big believer in the Ron as a seerer, but now I'm not so sure.



S.E. Jones - Jan 6, 2004 1:17 am (#224 of 1957)

Once upon a time, in a thread now eaten by the auto-delete or lost in the move between boards, we actually had a list of most of the correct predictions/guesses/whatever that Ron's made. I'd love to see us try and reconstruct that list.....



Gina R Snape - Jan 6, 2004 8:41 am (#225 of 1957)

Well, in PoA when they are first reading the tea leaves, I thought it was amusing that he said first it looked like a "hippo..."

JKR was soooo sneaky leaving in those three little dots! Because of course he saw a hippoGRIFF! But we didn't know what that was yet.



Madame Librarian - Jan 6, 2004 9:17 am (#226 of 1957)

When Ron looks in the Mirror of Erised, he see himself as Quidditch captain. We won't know for sure if that plays out, but he's at least on the team now.

He also makes some dire comment as a joke about seeing death in every tea leaf in Trelawney's class (don't have the books nearby, but it was something to the effect: "I don't care if it predicts 'die, Ron, die', I can't stand this class!" We, of course, all are worried a lot about this one.

There's another wisecrack he makes about "...if this, this, and this, then my dad's the Minister for Magic!" Again, wait and see.

I'm off to check the search tool.

Ciao. Barb

Edit: try starting around here with this post:

S.E. Jones 11/11/03 2:58pm

The search tool came up with more, too.



Fawkes Forever - Jan 6, 2004 11:16 am (#227 of 1957)

My my, this debate has become somewhat heated since I last checked in I'm almost scared to add my two knuts worth into the discussion....

Anyways, here I go. Regarding the Weasleys' economic status. My thoughts have always been this. (Remember this is my opinion, so no flame throwing please)

Authur has a middle income job, in the muggle world he'd be a Civil Servant, that is works for a Governmental Department. The wage isn't great, but it's enough to feed your family. We also know that from certain prejudices within the Minstry for Magic, Authur has not progressed through the ranks quite as quickly as he should have done. This probably means that his income hasn't increased much since he left Hogwarts. A middle income wage would be suffice to support a small family, but would be strained under the pressures of a larger family. More mouths to feed, clothes to buy and so on.

Indeed I have had the same thoughts as Tim in that, why don't the elder Weasleys who are earning send a bit of money home, after all, Gringotts curse breakers are well paid if the careers leaflets in OotP are anything to go by! As to that, I have no idea, but I do think that Weasleys Wizards Wheezes will be a way that the Weasleys will earn their fortune!

As regards to Ron being materialistic & grumpy... no more that most teenagers who parents can't afford the latest gismos & pricey gadgets.

From a personal point of view, I'm from a large enough family, just 2 less siblings than the Weasleys, and I'm also the second youngest. Sometimes in big families you can be over looked, even though it's not intentionally done, or get loads of hand me downs from your elder siblings. I don't know about any of you guys, but most people I knew growing up, bar the eldest in a house, got at least a few hand me downs.... especially regarding school uniforms & the like. We weren't exactly poor, nor where we rolling in cash, it just was a kind of money management strategy! When you have more kids you have more things to be bought. However I must admit, I was a tad annoyed with Molly for buying the frilly dress robes for Ron. Even if she did have to buy them second hand, she could have at least cut the lace off for him! But again thats probably down to the fact that she has a lot on her plate, & something like altering dress robes wouldn't be as high on Mollys priorities list as it would be Rons! Which means Ron would feel overlooked again!

Ron just likes to have a moan from time to time.... but hey we've all done it & still do 'Why is everything I own rubbish?' Ring a bell anyone?



S.E. Jones - Jan 6, 2004 11:41 am (#228 of 1957)

I think the second quote you're thinking of, Barb, goes something along the lines of "We have about as much chance of winning the Quidditch Cup as my dad does of becoming Minister of Magic." It should be pointed out that, because of Ron, they did win the Cup, so....

"And from now on, I don't care if my tea leaves spell die, Ron, die --- I'm just chunking them in the bin where they belong." (OotP c31, p718, US)

I don't think the "die, Ron, die" line is too telling as I think he was being serious and uber-sarcastic at the time.

PoA, Ch. 6:
“There’s a blob a bit like a bowler hat. Maybe you’re going to work for the Ministry of Magic....” “But this way it looks more like an acorn.... What’s that? ‘A windfall, unexpected gold.’ Excellent, you can lend me some... and there’s a thing here, that looks like an animal... yeah, if that was its head... it looks like a hippo... no, a sheep...”

Hm, so, Harry will either meet the Minister or Magic or end up working for the MoM (as an Auror?), will get a bag of gold (triwizard winnings), and then there's the hippo... (Good catch, Gina!)....



Madame Librarian - Jan 6, 2004 12:14 pm (#229 of 1957)

Sarah, thanks for doing the research!

All of those things were throwaway comments said in jest. You know, Ron being his usual sarcastic self. The irony is that when he does this, he seems to say something that actually comes to pass, at least on a few of them so far. Unless, of course, JKR is just messing with our head. Only time will tell.

Ciao. Barb



Gina R Snape - Jan 6, 2004 12:18 pm (#230 of 1957)

I think the bowler hat represented Fudge. And this thread has now gotten me excited that maybe Aruther Weasley will become thenew Minister for Magic!

Since it's doubtful the boys will be taking Divination anymore, I wonder if we will get any more opportunities for Ron's erstwhile predictions.



Madame Librarian - Jan 6, 2004 1:39 pm (#231 of 1957)

Gina, the thing is, Ron doesn't have to be in Divination class to make these...um..predictions. He's likely to be in the common room or wherever. We are just supposed to stay alert at all times. No glazing over...ever.

Ciao. Barb



Devika - Jan 7, 2004 5:34 am (#232 of 1957)

I think Ron says somewhere in PoA that now that scabbers is gone his parents might just get him an owl... he did get Pig, though not from his parents...



SarcasticGinny - Jan 8, 2004 8:19 am (#233 of 1957)

"and there’s a thing here, that looks like an animal... yeah, if that was its head... it looks like a hippo... no, a sheep...”

I like the line "If that was it's head" here. It's further suggestive of Buckbeak, who is in danger of losing his head! ;-)



Gina R Snape - Jan 8, 2004 2:21 pm (#234 of 1957)

Ooooooooooooh, SarcasticGinny. I never even thought of that. Really nice catch on that one!



Maollelujah - Jan 8, 2004 4:14 pm (#235 of 1957)

yeah, if that was its head... it looks like a hippo... no, a sheep

The only problem is that Buckbeak's head doesn't look like a sheep or a hippo...



timrew - Jan 8, 2004 4:21 pm (#236 of 1957)

Maollelujah, that's why there are three dots after the word 'hippo...'

Ron could have been going to add '...gryff'.



Maollelujah - Jan 8, 2004 4:45 pm (#237 of 1957)

Gotcha! It is my dang muggle upbringing that is holding me back, I tell ya.



Flame Alligator - Jan 9, 2004 7:46 am (#238 of 1957)

Ron may very well be a seer albeit unconsciously. He just tosses these predictions out laced with sarcasm.

Not to change the subject but I'm on my second read of GoF. WHY DOESN'T RON BELIEVE HARRY?!? I'm referring to the entry of the name. The only reason I can think of is jealous. Perish the thought.



A-is-for-Amy - Jan 9, 2004 6:15 pm (#239 of 1957)

Just ran across this while I was looking for something else:

Willow....Love, divination, Protection, Healing.

Isn't Ron's wand made of Willow?



Flame Alligator - Jan 10, 2004 8:05 am (#240 of 1957)

Brandon Christopher, Jan. 2, 2004

I completely agree with your "Rant on Ron". Ron is lucky and I get sick of him harassing Harry and doubting him in any way. How many times does Harry have to prove himself to deserve loyalty. Harry is also forgiving although, I was glad when Harry at least shut Ron out in GoF.

Even though everybody l-o-o-o-o-v-e-s Ron, you have me as an aly. I'm sick of Ron and he has become one of my least favorites, second, only to that annoying snit, Draco Malfoy.

I'm sure in future books he will still be considered a "friend" to Harry. Or under the thread of second chances (he has already had a bunch in my book) he will mend his ways and become a good friend to Harry.

Meanwhile, you and I will both be annoyed. Good to have an aly in an unpopular opinion.



S.E. Jones - Jan 10, 2004 11:17 am (#241 of 1957)

Good catch there, Amy!

I've been giving some thought to the Weasleys and their finances. I think we'll all agree that Ron is somewhat preoccupied with money (let's not argue to what extent, we've already had that argument). Often in old medieval societies, if a family had money and many children (most especially sons), the family fortune and lands were split up among the kids, though not equally. The eldest son usually got the biggest piece, the second eldest the second biggest piece, etc. Well, if we assumed Arthur was the youngest in a large family, he'd have gotten the smallest chunk when the inheritance was split up. If this were the case, could it possibly explain Ron's preoccupation with his family's wealth? Is he comparing himself, not to other pureblooded families, but to his own relatives?

As for the seer thing, I'd personally like to see him rather than Ginny become the seer, if there is going to be one emerging among the kids. Why? Because I like the irony that the situation would evoke and the possible plot-device that could arise from giving something (a gift such as foresight) that could help Harry to someone who won't use it. Ron hates divination and thinks it is a load of bunk, for this reason, he wouldn't trust any strange dreams or visions, or see them for what they were, and when he did finally realize that he was having visions, I don't think he'd be willing to admit the fact to himself, let alone to his friends. I think Ginny would be far more willing to believe her visions and instinct and confide any useful information to her friends.... I think it would make for a very interesting little sub-plot. Just my opinion, though.



Brandon Christopher - Jan 10, 2004 11:20 am (#242 of 1957)

Yes it does seem like we are in the overwelming minority here Flame A. But just to warn you, don't get to heated when talking about this subject. I learned the hard way that some people can get offended fairly easily (even if you don't think you are being offensive.) This first post of yours on this thread seems fine; I'm just giving you a heads up for the future to watch how you say things. I was told to be careful because of how heated I get and just don't want a fellow Lexicon member to get into trouble.

I am glad that someone agrees with me about his loyalty though. Most people here say that he is a teenager and therefor is still trying to figure out who he is. But I think deserting your friends because of petty jealousy is childish even for a very young teenager. I will say again that Ron used to be my favorite character up until GoF. I just think that what he did when Harry's name came out of the goblet shows his true nature. I haven't noticed anything in OotP showing that Ron is any less jealous of Harry. I think that as long as he is jealous then the trio will not be complete. For all of you R/Hr shippers out there, I think that Hermione will have to make a choice on who she cares for most. Ron whose jealousy is tearing them apart or loyal Harry who takes back friends without a second thought.

Flame A. I defintely look forward to talking to you about my least favorite character.



popkin - Jan 10, 2004 12:02 pm (#243 of 1957)

Why does everyone say that Ron will no longer be taking divination? I thought he was required to take it to become an auror. Since Harry will probably be in remedial divination anyway (due to McGonagal's promise to "do what ever it takes" to see Harry become an auror), why wouldn't Ron also? I think it could be very interesting to read about Ron and Harry learning the real art of divination from Firenze. I still don't think Ron will "get it", but I bet he makes offhand comments in that class that will come true.



S.E. Jones - Jan 10, 2004 12:18 pm (#244 of 1957)

popkin: Why does everyone say that Ron will no longer be taking divination? I thought he was required to take it to become an auror.

Nope. "It says here you need at least an E at NEWT level in Potions, Herbology, Transfiguration, Charms, and Defense Against the Dark Arts." (OotP, ch29, pg656, US)



Gina R Snape - Jan 10, 2004 4:22 pm (#245 of 1957)

Thanks for posting that, Sarah!

It seems to me Divination is only needed for Divination. Otherwise Dumbledore would have had a hard time justifying discontinuation in the Hogwarts curriculum (which he stated he wanted to do until Trelawney came along).

I can't say Ron is one of my favourite characters. I do find him whiny and jealous. But he also goes out of his way for his friends when they need him, and he can be very funny. So he's not a total loss in my book. But I do see his jealousies spreading in the next 2 books. He may be excluded from Order information Harry is privy to (because of his mum) and resent it, and he'll probably show some jealousy regarding Fred and George. Hopefully his involvement on the Quidditch team will afford him some recognition in his own right.

I wonder how Ron will react to Harry informing him of the prophesy (if Harry does tell him, which I can't imagine he won't once he's had time to 'digest' the idea).



Czarina - Jan 10, 2004 5:37 pm (#246 of 1957)

By making Ron jealous and resentful of Harry in many cases, JK Rowling has developed his own personality. Ron is not the loyal, chummy side-kick at all times; he questions his best friend and (like a lot of young people) wonders just who his best friend is.

FOr instance, it is hard to find fault with a kid who thinks he knows just about everything about his best friend Harry, only to discover that (from his point of view, at least) Harry has managed to get himself entered into the Triwizard Tournament. The night before, the two boys were JOKING about sneaking their names into the goblet. Under no circumstances did Ron actually think that Harry could REALLY enter the Tournament. Then, lo and behold, his name is pulled out! Ron -- like everyone else -- is stunned. He thought his friend was powerful, but not a genius. His own twin brothers (to whom he looks up to) couldn't get past the goblet. Naturally, he figures that Harry will eventually tell him how he managed the feat. It is not until later, when Harry still maintains that he DIDN'T put his name in the goblet, that Ron gets angry and ignores him. Looking at this particular situation from Ron's point of view only, it seems as though Harry is much more skilled that he thought and he won't even share his secrets with his BEST FRIEND!!!! That would make me very upset. Besides, Harry is getting all sorts of attention (good and bad) and this time, Ron is not sharing it. Not only is Harry "The Boy Who Lived," he is now a Triwizard Champion too! What has Ron accomplished? NOTHING!

Therefore, it is only natural that Ron should be jealous of his best friend. Why does anyone suppose he tries out for Quidditch? Extra exercise? Hardly. Time-filler? He 'never' even has time for homework. Ron wants to play on the team for the recognition. As the sixth of six sons and the sixth of seven kids, his LIFE'S ambition has been to be recognized for his abilities, whatever they are. Evidently, Dumbledore sees this desire in him, because he chooses him to be a prefect. Meanwhile, all Harry has to do for attention is walk into a room. If there was no conflict between the two boys over this disparity, among other things, Rowling would not have written such a realistic portrayal of human nature.

By the way, are there any instances where HARRY is jealous of RON in the books? Besides the obvious "he has a family and I don't," I mean.



Lady Nagini - Jan 10, 2004 5:48 pm (#247 of 1957)

Well, there's the prefect thing, of course. And then, yes, there's the family thing, which probably extends to Ron's normal life, as opposed to Harry's continual existence in the spotlight.



Czarina - Jan 10, 2004 6:26 pm (#248 of 1957)

Now that I think about it, Harry is probably jealous that Ron gets to keep playing Quidditch while he has been banned "for life," too.

Also, hasn't Harry dragged Ron around a lot? Ron always seems to end up the injured one in their escapades. Couldn't Ron feel like "for all I've done for and with Harry, no one acknowledges ME"?



Lady Nagini - Jan 10, 2004 7:00 pm (#249 of 1957)
Edited by Jan 10, 2004 7:02 pm

I'm not sure about the Quidditch thing. I think Harry's jealous of Ron about Quidditch in more of an I-hate-Umbridge kind of way. He's jealous of Ron about his family in a you-have-something-I-can-never-have kind of way. He's not jealous of Ron over Quidditch, per say; he's just resentful of Umbridge.



Brandon Christopher - Jan 10, 2004 8:02 pm (#250 of 1957)

"...Also, hasn't Harry dragged Ron around a lot? Ron always seems to end up the injured one in their escapades."

Czarina have you forgotten that every time Harry would go off to do something Ron and Hermione would practically beg to come along. Harry tries to stop them continually, you can hardly blame Harry for Ron's stubborness. I can't remember a single time when Harry "dragged" Ron along on a rescue mission or such.

"...Couldn't Ron feel like "for all I've done for and with Harry, no one acknowledges ME"?"

I could also take this and spin it around saying that the only reason Ron goes with Harry is to gain recognition. If he wants the acknowledgement then he doesn't deserve to go off with Harry in the first place. Harry helps people for the sake of helping people, not to get recognition. He doesn't ask for anything in return, he just does what he thinks is right. Like when he told Cedric about the dragons, I seriously doubt Ron would have done that. He probably would have left Cedric out to dry and said forget you.

Is Ron really being loyal to Harry when he goes off with him or is he simply trying to get his own recognition. The only time I've ever seen Ron do something really loyal to Harry was when he put himself between Harry and Sirius in the Shrieking Shack in PoA (one time in five books.) I have always had serious doubts about Ron's loyalty; is Percy the only traitor in the Weasley family?
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Lady Nagini - Jan 10, 2004 8:09 pm (#251 of 1957)

Brandon, I don't know if I agree that Ron isn't really being loyal to Harry; we haven't seen any solid proof that Ron is a traitor, or anything of the sort. He's not trying to get recognition, but the fact that he doesn't, even after helping Harry (who does, by the way, get recognition - whether he wants it or not) probably rankles a bit. He does genuinely want to help Harry.

And Ron seems to have a much stronger character than Percy, even at a younger age. He's loyal and honest to a fault; Percy is only concerned with Percy.



Brandon Christopher - Jan 10, 2004 8:15 pm (#252 of 1957)

Ron has stronger character than Percy? Lady N. could you please elaborate; I don't know where in the books it shows that Ron has stronger character than Percy.



I Am Used Vlad - Jan 10, 2004 8:31 pm (#253 of 1957)

Brandon, Ron also showed loyalty when he sacrificed himself on the chess board in SS/PS. I agree, though, that he would not have helped Cedric had he been one of the champions.



Brandon Christopher - Jan 10, 2004 8:39 pm (#254 of 1957)

Nimrod, could his sacrifice have only been made to gain him recognition? I agree that this was a loyal act; but was it a completely selfless act?



Lady Nagini - Jan 10, 2004 9:03 pm (#255 of 1957)
Edited by Jan 10, 2004 9:04 pm

Brandon, I wasn't stating so much of a fact as what I've deduced from the books. Ron is willing to help Harry; had Percy been in his position, he would have just told Harry off and quite possibly turned him into Dumbledore or McGonagall.

And you could make the same argument for everything in all the books. It never says that Ron is doing this out of complete selflessness, but it certainly never mentions that the only reason Ron accompanies Harry is out of selfishness, either. JKR's writing is all about the nuances and subtleties.

While I do think Ron is jealous of Harry's wealth and fame, he's all about loyalty to his best friend when push comes to shove.

If he's so absorbed with furthering his own interests, why was Ron not put in Slytherin?



Brandon Christopher - Jan 10, 2004 9:34 pm (#256 of 1957)

I have said it before and I'll say it again Lady N. when push came to shove Ron did abandon Harry. He has abandoned Harry multiple times, Hermione has actually stayed with Harry more than Ron has. Ron doesn't understand Harry and simply wishes he were him without thinking about all the baggage Harry comes with. If Ron were as loyal as everyone has painted him to be then he would be in Hufflepuff. He showed in the last book that he can be hard working (quidditch tryouts) the only qualities he seems to lack from Hufflepuff are being "just" and "loyal." We can tell he is not "just" because of when he abandons his friends for no reason and he also has no compassion for those oppressed, (house elves.) I think the only reason that he was actually placed into Gryffindor is because of family, he is not overly brave, he isn't chivalrous. And he wouldn't go into ravenclaw because he definitely isn't overly smart, the best place he might have fit into is Slytherin. Actually I think he would have done well there, with other ambitious people he might have pushed himself harder. The only two places he really belonged in were Slytherin and I feel that Gryffindor is a default because of his family history. Bottom line if Ron were as loyal as everyone has said then he would be in Hufflepuff; he hasn't shown any strong tendencies to any house so any remarkable trait would have caused him to be placed in a different house.

Lady N. you are right, the books never say that Ron does anything out of selflessness or selfishness. Actually Rowling rarely comes out and says anything straight out so we have to read into everything just like you said. I have come to the conclusion after reading the books many many times that Ron simply doesn't care about much, friendship isn't a high priority, money isn't either, neither is school. The only thing I have found that he really cares about is Quidditch. That is the only thing Ron seems to be able to hold a claim to fame for, but not by much. When Ron finally gets recognition for his meager Quidditch abilities then he will become a completely different person. Unlike Harry I think that fame will get to his head and he will become even worse once he gets what he has always wanted. Like Dumbledore once said "humans do have a knack of choosing precisely what is worset for them." Do you think it a coincidence that Dumbledore said that and Ron is finally getting exactly what he has wanted his whole life?



S.E. Jones - Jan 10, 2004 10:06 pm (#257 of 1957)

"He has abandoned Harry multiple times, Hermione has actually stayed with Harry more than Ron has..... Bottom line if Ron were as loyal as everyone has said then he would be in Hufflepuff..."

Multiple times? I've read the books several times myself and have delved rather deeply into them, being a part of this forum since it started here at World Crossing, and I simply don't see what you see. What I have seen is this: Ron has been a good friend, in my eyes (note the "my" part of that statement), and has shown great loyalty and courage. He didn't beg to go with Harry but, realizing the risk for personal injury, he insists that his friend isn't going alone. As for "no compassion for those oppressed," I have to disagree here as well. I think (note the "I think") he simply views the situation differently than Hermione because he grew up in a world where owning house-elves was openly permitted while Hermione grew up in a world that would have been outraged at the idea and lobbyists for House-elf rights would have started international campaigns. I don't feel that showing loyalty is, in itself a qualifier for being placed in Hufflepuff, as Hermione shows extreme intelligence and yet wasn't placed in Ravenclaw. I do admit, however, that he did abandon Harry once (and only once in five books), but I have to agree with Czarina's interpretation of the reasoning behind his actions. He is young and will make mistakes, big deal. When he realized that his friend was in real danger, he did try to apologize. He then goes out of his way to back his friend up and even Harry points out that he feels most of Ron's siding with him was coming from Ron's guilt (if he really felt no loyalty to Harry, he wouldn't feel guilty) and wish to show Harry that he was definately on his side. Harry was just as stubborn as Ron during that point in the books, yet I don't see him getting penalized for it. Hm, wonder why that is..? Bottom line, we all read the books differently and carry something a little differently into them and pull something a little different out. I see Ron as a great friend and a strong character.



Mrs. Sirius - Jan 10, 2004 10:16 pm (#258 of 1957)

Does any one see a correlation between Ron's prophesies and Cassandra? Ron makes astute prophies and no one hears them because he makes them as a joke or as an ironic aside. Cassandra made her prophesies but one one believed her.

When Ron accompanied Harry into the Forbidden Forest to seek out the spiders in CoS, he was between reluctant and unwilling. The sight of Hermione's empty seat is what finally convinces him.



S.E. Jones - Jan 10, 2004 10:22 pm (#259 of 1957)

Interesting, Mrs. S. I would've never thought about there being a correlation there. Good catch! Does anyone think that, assuming Ron does have some sort of latent "seer" ability, the brain encounter could open his abilities up and allow him to "see" more accurately?



Weeny Owl - Jan 10, 2004 11:26 pm (#260 of 1957)

I still see Ron as a good friend and a good person.

He certainly isn't as bad as James and Sirius were at his age. He is hardly anything like that nasty Draco.

He's a kid who made a wrong choice because he felt he was being lied to.

All the kids have made mistakes. Hermione told McGonagall about Harry's Firebolt but was forgiven, so why can't Ron be forgiven?

I do like the correlation, Mrs. Sirius! There might very well be something to it.



Flame Alligator - Jan 11, 2004 3:58 am (#261 of 1957)

Ron sticks by his friends when they are in need. How many friends does Ron have? I don't notice him winning any popularity contests at Hogwarts. Since GoF, I no longer find him amusing. I thought he was going to be the sardonic side kick to our hero.

In OotP, he was practically worthless to Harry as a friend. He was so inflated over making the Quidditch Team. Whenever, Harry tried to discuss anything serious with Ron. Ron down played the problem. Harry hesitates to confide in Ron.

I do not underestimate teenagers. In some ways, teenagers are closer to reality then adults. Teenage anxiety is no excuse for Weezy's petty jealousy.

I'm in the middle of a reread of GoF. This time I have my psychological microscope on good ol' Ron. I actually have been avoiding re reading GoF because of Ron's treatment of Harry.

Please forgive any mistakes I may have missed. I have been up for 36 hours.



Devika - Jan 11, 2004 6:12 am (#262 of 1957)

Well.. I don't like Ron much myself, but I've never thought too much about him. So far I think most of us have been taking Ron for granted as the hero's faithful sidekick. But now that I'm thinking more about him (thanks to the forum) I see that he isn't really the best friend to have. It is interesting that they don't really have a strong basis for their friendship. The main reason Harry got together with Ron in the first place was that they happened to be in the same compartment and he was fascinated by the fact that Ron was from a wizard family. The coming of Draco soon after just gave him an excuse to stand up for Ron- no other resaon - he didn't even know Ron well enough then! Ron on the other hand I think has been very fascinated by Harry's persona as the 'boy who lived'. On most occassions it is Ron who reminds us about Harry's celebrity status, like in PoA when they meet at Diagon Alley it is Ron who says that Harry got away with blowing up Marge because of his celebrity status. And if someone is a friend because of his friend's status then it is bound to show sometime and I guess it came to a bursting point in GoF when it really came to the fore. That way Ron is a somewhat shallow person.



milti girl - Jan 11, 2004 7:34 am (#263 of 1957)
Edited by Denise P. Jan 11, 2004 10:07 am

I agree with Weeny Owl, and forgive me if I take the 'he's a teenager trying to find his own identity' view of Ron's personality. Because, whatever else, he is a teenager trying to find out who he really is and what he really believes in - and teenagers are not always logical about what they believe in. Most often their emotions come in the way of their better judegement, and Ron is especially emotional.

"I have come to the conclusion after reading the books many many times that Ron simply doesn't care about much, friendship isn't a high priority, money isn't either, neither is school. The only thing I have found that he really cares about is Quidditch."

That's pretty harsh, Brandon. Ron cares about a lot more than Quidditch! He cares about Harry and Hermione, definitely. I'm not giving my opinion about the money, school or Quidditch, but I definitely have a big discourse to make about the friendship thing.

Remember that part in CoS where the sight of Hermione's empty chair is what made Ron grit his teeth and follow the spiders. In fact I kind of think Harry was pretty insensitive; he didn't really care about Ron's spider-phobia.

In GoF, when Ron realised in the end that Harry indeed did not trick the Goblet into making him a champion, he felt genuine remorse and wanted to apologise to Harry. We don't see the complete apology – "Harry, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have thought the worst" -- because Harry didn't want to hear it from him. The fact that Ron was big enough to come up to Harry and admit he was wrong was proof enough for Harry that Ron really cared for him. Hermione actually burst into tears because she was so touched by it all. Being a girl, I can totally understand that. If my friends had a disagreement for no good reason, and one of them finally came to their senses and tried to apologise sweetly, I would feel really relieved and my estimation of that friend would rise a whole lot.

Yet another example of how Ron is sensitive, intuitive and a good friend who doesn't mind helping out: in PoA, when Harry was caught by Snape for sneaking off to Hogsmeade without permisson, and Snape confiscated all Harry's purchases, Ron came barrelling into the room saying he bought that stuff for Harry ages ago. I thought that was really good of Ron. The bond that Harry and Ron share despite their different personalities – that was what I thought it showed. Ron might envy Harry for bring rich and famous, might try hanging around with Harry to see if that will improve his image…but he's not going to hold anything against Harry. I feel he understands that Harry has a life that he would love to lead (money, fame, girls lining up in a queue to go out with him) and conversely he has a life that Harry would love to lead (a big loving family, a house where his room is not a cupboard under the stairs, brothers who love him and spend quality time with him and are not out to break his arm all the time).

You can't have a friendship without petty little disagreements. You either have to give your friends space to breathe and be themselves or you have to keep stepping on their toes and make them annoyed that you're breathing down their necks. The disagreements between Harry and Ron last so long because both of them have a very strong sense of pride and don't want to look "weak" and "sissy" by swallowing it. If Ron has a bad quality, Harry has one too.

Ron and Harry essentially accept each other for what they are. Ron looks up to Harry while trying to look like he's not looking up to Harry. Harry is grateful for Ron's support while trying to look like he could do without it anyhow, because if he acted like he was craving for Ron's company, his image would change (of being the wonderful kid who could defeat Lord Voldemort even as a baby, of being the one boy who survived a horrible home with no parents)…it would make him look weak that he can't do without Ron's company, and that's something Harry definitely doesn't want to show the world. It's obvious the way he felt Hermione's company was nice but not the same as Ron's. When Ron and Harry had disagreements Ron had his brothers and Neville, Dean and Seamus to hang around with. Harry had no one except Hermione. Ron's friendship means a whole lot to Harry. I think it's beautiful that Ron should be the one person to fill in that serious gap in Harry's life – to be a friend to him equal to all the friends Harry could have had when he was young but didn't because of Dudley.

Ron may be a wizard-in-the-making but he is also as much human as Harry is. He also wants to be recognised on his own merit, he wants to be noticed for what he's worth, he wants to be the popular one. And let's face it, who doesn't? Every single person on this planet has at least dreamt of being rich, famous, good looking and popular with everyone. And to have your best friend living out your dream must be so frustrating. You're so near, yet so far. Ron is at least completely honest about his feelings, whether envious or not. He is honest, even though he might feel silly being himself now and then (wearing frayed robes, being an average student, being publicly yelled at for the whole hall to hear his mother's Howlers) – but his essential honesty is what people admire in him. Being honest is a Gryffindor trait. That's why the Weasley family make good Gryffindors – they accept everyone, and eventually including themselves, for what they are.



Weeny Owl - Jan 11, 2004 8:46 am (#264 of 1957)

milti girl:

I am stunned. That is such an excellent analysis of Harry and Ron and their friendship. You've explained their human frailties superbly.

There are things about each member of the HRH trio that I don't like, but all in all, I think they're all basically good for each other. They each have strengths and weaknesses that make them stronger as a whole.



Madame Librarian - Jan 11, 2004 9:35 am (#265 of 1957)

Milti Girl, bravo! Take 25 points, my dear. If the main characters in these books did not have their good sides and bad sides (I don't mean evil when I say bad), they would be as boring as concrete. They would be unrealistic, too. JKR is too good a writer to create this marvelous world of magic and peril, and fill it with main characters who act like devils or saints only. It's the shifting back and forth between the emotions of love, despair, hate, misunderstanding, envy, etc. that draw us into the hearts and minds of Harry and friends because it makes them oh so human.

Ciao. Barb



Lady Nagini - Jan 11, 2004 10:46 am (#266 of 1957)
Edited by Jan 11, 2004 10:47 am

Milti Girl, thank you! You said exactly what I wanted to say!

Brandon (#256): He has abandoned Harry multiple times, Hermione has actually stayed with Harry more than Ron has.

Are you talking about when Ron sacrificed himself on the chessboard in PS/SS? Or when he jumped in front of Harry in the Shrieking Shack? I simply can't think of any situations where Ron has physically abandoned Harry. Emotionally, the only time when Ron abandoned him was in GoF, when he was laboring under the notion that Harry flat out lied to him. Yes, friendship is about trust, but being selected for the Triwizard Tournament, when Harry was underage, was something extraordinary. And Ron eventually apologized to him, when Harry finally let him.

"Ron simply doesn't care about much, friendship isn't a high priority, money isn't either, neither is school."

Hm. I beg to differ. Ron has shown that his friends are a high priority to him for all the reasons Milti Girl pointed out.

"I think the only reason that he was actually placed into Gryffindor is because of family, he is not overly brave, he isn't chivalrous."

Well, we've seen that family (Padma & Parvati Patil) aren't necessarily placed in the same house, so that's not a valid reason anymore. And where does it say that Gyffindors have to be chivalrous -- I don't see Harry or Dean or Seamus or Neville being chivalrous. Ron is brave, however. Refer to the top part of my post.

And as for the house elf thing, Harry's not particularly sympathtic to Hermione's cause either. SE had it right when she said "he simply views the situation differently than Hermione because he grew up in a world where owning house-elves was openly permitted while Hermione grew up in a world that would have been outraged at the idea and lobbyists for House-elf rights would have started international campaigns." (#257)

Ron's not my favorite character either, but he is a loyal, brave friend.



I Am Used Vlad - Jan 11, 2004 10:58 am (#267 of 1957)

Brandon Christopher [/b]- Jan 10, 2004 8:39 pm (#254 of 265) Nimrod, could his sacrifice have only been made to gain him recognition? I agree that this was a loyal act; but was it a completely selfless act?

This is about the chess scene in SS/PS.

I think it was a completely selfless act. Ron was not riding the knight like in the movie. He had replaced the knight, and could easily have been killed when he allowed himself to be taken. That might have gotten he some recognition, but he wouldn't have been there to enjoy it.



SarcasticGinny - Jan 11, 2004 1:10 pm (#268 of 1957)

I also want to point to the aforementioned Shrieking Shack scene in which Ron gets up on a broken leg and yells twice at Sirius Black, whom all of them think to be a killer who has just trapped them, that he will have to kill him too to get to Harry. There is no recognition involved for a boy who is murdered and left in a place where no one ever enters (the Shrieking Shack is abandoned), yet Ron tries to attract Sirius's assumed murderous intentions onto himself here. Why? To die in a remote location by the hands of someone whom, as far as he knows, will probably escape offer nothing for Ron-only the knowlege that he did everything in his power to help his best friend.

That said, I feel that JKR has created a "weak book" for both Ron and Hermione in which their friendship with Harry proves to be shakier than we'd ever have guessed in the previous two books. The weak book for Hermione is POA, in which she proves stubborn, unyeilding, and overly secretive; likewise Ron proves to be judgemental and equally stubborn in GOF. The weaknesses in their friendship is shown in those two books, and as readers we need to see this. We need it so come OOTP, when neither one of them can really settle Harry down or make him feel better, we are not left wondering why Harry can't respond to his best friends. JKR loves Ron and Hermione dearly; the intent was not to change the portrayal of either of them, but rather to aquaint readers with their flaws as well as their finer attributes. The seeds of difficulty planted in earlier books help us understand the dynamic of the trio's relationship.



Lady Nagini - Jan 11, 2004 2:37 pm (#269 of 1957)

Weak book, Sarcastic Ginny? I agree with that, to an extent. Hermione is "stubborn, unyeilding, and overly secretive" , but only about the Time Turner, really. And she has to be; there would be dire consequences if she told the boys. And Hermione does help Harry at the end of PoA (without Ron), which cements their friendship even further...



Czarina - Jan 11, 2004 3:53 pm (#270 of 1957)

"And Hermione does help Harry at the end of PoA (without Ron),..."

Yes, but Ron does help Harry at the end of CoS (without Hermione). Though her influence is still felt in that book, she is out of the picture for much of it. First, she is in the hospital for partially turning into a cat. Then she is Petrified and doesn't reappear until the end of the book.



timrew - Jan 11, 2004 4:09 pm (#271 of 1957)

It seems that Ron has got some bad press here for being what he is.....a kid. Sure, he's made some mistakes, but I think he's shown his loyalty to Harry far more than he has fallen out with him.



Lady Nagini - Jan 11, 2004 4:18 pm (#272 of 1957)

Thank you, Tim! Yes, people seem to be expected Ron to be some superhuman being, who never leaves Harry's side or feels the slightest bit of jealous for his rich, famous best friend.



Brandon Christopher - Jan 11, 2004 6:14 pm (#273 of 1957)

I don't expect Ron to be superhuman; I just expect him to stay by his friend through tough times. I expect him to be jealous of Harry but up until OotP I didn't think Ron would abandon Harry over his jealousy. And for all of you people saying that Ron tried to apologize but Harry didn't let him I say when, when did Ron try to apologize? When he walked in on Harry talking to Sirius? Is that when you think he tried to apologize, because he didn't even try. Harry gave him a chance to apologize by asking him why he came up to the common room. Ron had the ideal opportunity to apologize right there, but he claimed that he just came up because he heard a noise. He only apologized after the first task, after he saw what Harry had to get through and deal with. Through all his anger and jealousy he completely forgot or just ignored all the danger that the tournament came with. As usual all he saw was the fame and glory that Harry got, typical Ron.

No one expects him to be perfect; he's proven that he's far from that. I just expect him to stay loyal to Harry. And for all you who are saying that Ron only abndoned Harry once in five books I refer you to OotP. After Harry and Ron overhear the conversation in Mr. Weasley's hospital room Ron looks at Harry with "fearful" eyes.

"...they were all staring at him, the strings still trailing from their ears, looking suddenly fearful." OotP p.491

This is the first thing that Harry notices, Ron staring at him with fear in his eyes. You may not consider this abandonment but I do. I don't think that Harry would have tried to hole himself up in his room if Ron was at least trying to talk to him. But Ron avoids Harry when Harry shuts himself in his room. When Ron tells Harry that breakfast is ready he races out of the room and does not even try to talk to Harry. Hermione is the one to approach Harry when she gets back, Ron doesn't even speak during the whole conversation, hardly a helpful friend.

It's little things like this that get to me about Ron. These little things are what made me realize that he is a poor choice for a best friend. Sure he's a kid, but that excuse only goes so far. None of my friends would have ever abandoned me over some petty jealousy, even at the age of fourteen. The fear in the eyes I could see after a big event like overhearing what Harry did, but not total abandonment. Once was enough for me to dislike him, I don't think he has redeemed himself and I don't think he has really tried that hard. I think that Ron thought that since Harry took him back that all was forgiven and forgotten. Once again typical Ron...



A-is-for-Amy - Jan 11, 2004 7:27 pm (#274 of 1957)

I think the attempted apology that is being referred to is at the point when Harry has just finished the first Tri-wizard task. He comes in with Hermione and Harry know that he is about to apologise, but Harry decides he doesn't need to hear it, and glosses it over.

As for the fearful look in his eyes in OoP, I certainly would NOT consider this any form of abandonment! He just overheard someone he trusts make a terrible diagnosis of his best friend's syptoms (possession by LV)... I would be afraid for a friend if something like that happened. I think that the fearful look is concern for Harry and and not a fear of Harry.

I think that Ron was trying to respect Harry's privacy and give him some time to sort out his thought and feelings while he was holed up in his room. Harry made it pretty obvious he wanted to be alone. A good friend knows when to respect that need.

I just disagree with those of you who think he is a poor friend. A friend doesn't have to be joined with you at the hip or intuit your every feeling and thought.



Weeny Owl - Jan 11, 2004 7:51 pm (#275 of 1957)

After Moody mentioned possession, they all looked at Harry fearfully. In the next chapter, they were all watching him. Ron called to him that dinner was ready but Harry didn't respond. It wasn't that Ron raced out of the room but that Harry ignored him. Could it be that perhaps Ron thought Harry was still sleeping? The next day he ignored Mrs. Weasley when she called him for breakfast. None of that sounds as if it's Ron who is "abandoning" Harry. It sounds as if everyone is leaving him alone because that's what he wants.

Hermione told Harry and Ron and Ginny said he had been hiding from everyone. Ron looked down at his feel but Ginny seemed quite unabashed.

Ginny tells Harry he was being stupid for wanting to be left alone. Ginny and Harry discuss possession, and after a while, Ron reassures Harry that he never left his bed so he couldn't have actually been there when Arthur was attacked.

Ron did talk to Harry during the conversation... he was the one reassuring Harry.



Lady Nagini - Jan 11, 2004 8:09 pm (#276 of 1957)
Edited by Jan 11, 2004 8:09 pm

I agree with Weeny Owl and Amy.

Just because Harry is avoiding the Ron and the rest of the Weasleys doesn't make Ron a bad friend. He's tried getting Harry to talk, and now he's just doing what Harry wants.

Again, if someone though their best friend was being possessed by the evilest dark wizard to ever have lived, they'd be lying if they said they wouldn't be at least a tiny bit afraid. And, yes, it's mostly fear for Harry.



Brandon Christopher - Jan 11, 2004 8:15 pm (#277 of 1957)

Look I know that I'm the minority here, I realize that those of you who like Ron will most likely always like him. I'm just asking you guys to take a step back and put your feelings for him aside and look at all the facts. If you still like Ron after that then there's no point in me saying anything else. I'm tired of saying the same things over and over and having people continually say that "I just don't see that," or "he's just a kid." It's obvious that I have a very different opinion than almost every person on this thread. But I don't want everyone to hate Ron, I just want people to admit that he isn't as good a friend as everyone has painted him to be. Nobody is perfect but Ron is hardly acting like the "great friend" that everyone says that he is. If after all I've said no one sees that then there's no more I can say that will convince you. You will continue to say that he is just a kid and that no one is perfect and ignore the fact that Ron did abandon Harry and didn't even try to help him in OotP when they got to Grimauld Place.

Whenever Harry is feeling guilty or is trying to protect someone he locks himself up and seperates himself from everyone else. He stews over his emotions and rarely solves his problems this way. Ron being the non-confrontational type of person that he is won't try to get Harry to open up. Mrs. Weasley asks Harry if he is alright but Ron completely avoids talking to Harry except when he tells him that breakfast is ready. Ron wasn't respecting any wish of Harry's; he was just trying to avoid a row between himself and Harry. Sometimes being alone is the worst thing for a person, Hermione recognizes this. She normally knows what to say to Harry to get him to open up or listen to reason, Ron rarely does. I think this is a crucial factor in a strong friendship. You can't read your friends minds but you should be able to understand them and communicate with them. Ron doesn't seem to be able to communicate well with most people; he doesn't have great people skills. This hurts Harry's and his friendship.

Amy, if after the first task was the only time that Ron tried to apologize to Harry then that just reinforces my point that Ron refused to apologize. He waited until it was almost to late and until he saw the real danger that Harry was in. He couldn't get past his own petty jealousy to admit that he was wrong. That's a great example of a good friend... yeah right!!!

P.S. where in the books do we see any indication that the fear in their eyes is a fear for Harry. When someone is staring at you with fear in their eyes that is normally a description of fear "of" a person not a fear "for" them.



Weeny Owl - Jan 11, 2004 8:46 pm (#278 of 1957)

You won't change my mind, Brandon, but perhaps that's because I've been through many friendships that have weathered much worse than anything Ron could possibly have done.

Harry and Ron both seem rather clueless when it comes to feelings. Harry had no idea whatsoever about how to deal with Cho, so Ron not knowing how to deal with emotions is no different.

I don't think Ron was trying to avoid a row with Harry. Ron called up to Harry and Harry never responded, so it would seem that Ron was just letting Harry sleep. Harry ignored Molly, but I don't see you saying anything about her abandoning him.

I'll say it again... Ron DID reassure Harry that he wasn't being possessed by saying that he never left his bed.

If Harry can forgive Ron, why can't you? I'm not saying that to be rude or mean, but true friendship does have to include a lot of forgiveness.



Lady Nagini - Jan 11, 2004 10:00 pm (#279 of 1957)
Edited by Jan 11, 2004 10:04 pm

Harry's just as clueless as Ron over emotions, and things like that. Harry tends to be very unpredictable, emotionally. Yes, it is a trait possessed by many teenagers, but we haven't seen this degree of fluctuating emotions from anyone else in the series. If I were Ron, I'd give Harry some space to work things out, then approach him.

Besides, If Ron was off in a corner, sulking, I highly doubt it would be Harry that tried to get him to talk; it would be Hermione.

And I said it before: Ron is a little scared because the most powerful dark wizard of all time is possessing him. He's not so much scared of Harry, but of Voldemort-inside-Harry. I'm sure Ron would've been scared of Ginny had he known of her possession beforehand.

EDIT: And, Brandon, I would appreciate it if you could please stop implying that we refuse to see things the way you do simply because we like Ron. We are interpreting the facts in different ways; we are not purposely ignoring anything. Thank you.



timrew - Jan 11, 2004 11:39 pm (#280 of 1957)

Brandon, to me you are marching out of step, and you want all of us to join you. I see this argument of yours just going round and round in circles, and frankly, it's getting a little tedious.

Why can't you see that people have their own opinions, and stop trying to get everyone to agree with you? We think Ron's okay, you don't. Fair enough.



Brandon Christopher - Jan 12, 2004 12:33 am (#281 of 1957)

No Tim I never said that I wanted everyone to have the same beliefs as me, I distinctly said that I didn't wish that. There is a difference between trying to get people to accept an idea and trying to push it onto them. I'm sorry if I seemed to be pushing my views onto you, it was not my intention. My intention was only to get people to listen when I thought that they weren't. I just wanted people to accept my arguments. It might just be me but I seriously felt that no one was even really considering my ideas. Maybe I am wrong but I have become increasingly frustrated on this thread, I haven't had any trouble on any other thread feeling that my ideas were not accepted and this got to me. Perhaps you are right and I am out of line. But I felt that I needed to say how I felt about this. There really isn't any point to this forum if people don't listen to all the arguments. I will say this again, I haven't had this problem on any other thread.

Yes Tim my argument is going around and around in circles and yes even I feel that it has become tedious. You would be doing the same if you were trying to share an idea with someone and felt that no one was listening. I feel that I have expressed my views and ideas and will leave them as is. People have different views, I accept and agree with that. My whole philosophy is that if people are given all the information or look at something from a different view then they might see things differnetly. I have tried looking at Ron's character multiple ways and have come to my conclusion about his character that way. I thought that maybe if I gave you all my ideas and views then you might see how I viewed Ron and where I was coming from.

I think that this was all fueled by people on the Ship/ship thread saying that my views were clouded by my dislike for Ron. I think that subconsciously I was making sure that no one was doing that here. Again I am sorry if it seemed like I was pushing my views on others, it was not my intent. I am normally in the minority when it comes to philosophical views so I have gotten used dealing with people who don't listen to my ideas. My apologies to anyone I offended; it seems like I am saying that a lot on this thread. And because of that I am leaving this thread, this is my last post here. I love the Lexicon but I really didn't feel accepted on this thread; again perhaps it was just me, my apologies again to everyone here for everything regarding about my posts.

I hope to have pleasant conversations with you all on other threads, bye for now.



Flame Alligator - Jan 12, 2004 4:02 am (#282 of 1957)

Brandon, Jan. ll 2004 #273 and #277

You are not alone in your observations concerning Ron. Psychoanalysis is my profession and I found your observations dead on target. Loyalty is utmost important in relationship. I was always loyal to my friends when I was an adolescent much less a teenager. I realize some people do not mind envious, jealous and sometimes disloyal friends. Obviously, Harry doesn't mind too much because he forgives Ron. But then again, Harry is lonely.

Have you noticed that after GoF, Harry is more hesitant to confide in Ron? I do not think that being envious, jealous and oscillating loyalty makes one more human. It just means those are your qualities.

Brandon we are on the same track concerning Ron. He was my second favorite character after Harry. I still love his humor but I no longer trust him. "just a kid" -- no excuse.

Edit: Brandon, I am sorry to see you leave this thread but I hope you are still reading. I enjoyed all your comments and you alone got this thread out of the doldrums. Before your Ron Rant, I was getting terribly bored. I enjoyed the controversy.



milti girl - Jan 12, 2004 5:07 am (#283 of 1957)

Thanks, everyone, for congratulating me on my opinion of what a good friend Ron is. *feeling very pleased*

Why did Brandon leave? I was enjoying the argument. This thread is not just for Ron-lovers. It's for anyone who has anything at all to say about Ron. People may have different opinions and they aren't necessarily wrong opinions.

I am a staunch supporter of Ron. I love every single thing about him and his personality. So I have my 2 bits to say about him and others have their 2 bits to say about him too. We don't need to jump at each other's throats just because we differ on certain issues.

I'm sorry that Brandon was driven away. I sincerely am sorry if he ( or anyone else) was offended by anything I said. I hope he still continues reading this thread even if he doesn't post on it anymore (because with no one to counter our views life on this thread will get soooo boring!)



Devika - Jan 12, 2004 8:28 am (#284 of 1957)

Brandon, I agree with Flame... I do think that you have managed to get quite an accurate and if I may say so, a more realistic picture of Ron's character. I'm quite sure none of us here are saying that Ron is a bad character. That is the beauty of JKR's writing... her characters are all multifaceted and that's what has given this forum so much to discuss! Brandon, I really think that it has been thanks to this interesting controversy that this Ron thread has been revived again and I don't think you have offended anyone.



timrew - Jan 12, 2004 10:38 am (#285 of 1957)

I wasn't offended by what Brandon had to say; but I did feel that the discussion was becoming a little tedious. Things were being repeated over and over again.

However, if I am the reason that Brandon has left the thread, then I apologise to him. I was just trying to get the discussion back on track, rather than have an "I love Ron/I hate Ron" thread. IMHO, I felt this thread was advancing nowhere.



Weeny Owl - Jan 12, 2004 11:44 am (#286 of 1957)

Brandon:

There's no reason for you to leave the discussion. I think the only thing that was a bit off-putting was when you said people who liked Ron wouldn't admit that he's a bad friend. It isn't a matter of admitting or not admitting something. It is only a differing viewpoint.

I do like seeing different opinions on all of JKR's characters and seeing how the same passages can be interpreted in other ways.

I still like Ron and can see him as simply an ordinary boy with faults who is trying to make his way in a difficult world.



Lady Nagini - Jan 12, 2004 5:41 pm (#287 of 1957)
Edited by Jan 12, 2004 5:42 pm

Brandon, I didn't mean that you had to leave the thread; I just felt that your implication was a bit unreasonable. We all make mistakes, and I did value your contribution to this thread.

I apologize if I drove you away from the thread; that was not my intention.



Brandon Christopher - Jan 13, 2004 12:18 am (#288 of 1957)

Well I guess I acted a bit rashly. There really isn't any need for me to leave the thread if I haven't offended anyone or if no one wishes for me to leave. But to tell you the truth I had every intention of leaving this thread until I got an e-mail from a fellow member, you know who you are (don't want to embarress you.) This e-mail really touched me and I decided that I would continue to view and post on this thread because of it.

Thank you all of you for showing me that I am accepted even though I hold different beliefs. You have no idea how good that feels; as I said earlier philosophicaly/religiously I am normally in the minority. So I get used to being shunned and pushed to the side because of my beliefs. This shows how great this forum truly is, that I am accepted even through differences. I am proud to be a member of this great Lexicon family.



Flame Alligator - Jan 13, 2004 3:11 am (#289 of 1957)

Yeah Brandon!!!! I am so glad you are staying with us. Someone else who views both sides of the Harry Potter Series and not just view the nonvillainous characters through rose colored glasses. With each book, the story darkens and becomes more complex. This includes the character Ron Weasley. I am also very pleased that some of the other members appreciated and were even enlightended by your arguments and commentaries.



timrew - Jan 13, 2004 2:48 pm (#290 of 1957)

Brandon, welcome back! Your comments are appreciated by the members of this Forum, even though on some things we agree to differ.

And I do think that things will get darker in book 6. So there may be a bit of trouble in store for Ron, and possibly a few other people too.



Lady Nagini - Jan 16, 2004 9:48 am (#291 of 1957)
Edited by Jan 16, 2004 9:49 am

Let's get the Ron thread started again!

I think Ron's definitely going to mature in the next book; he's going to have to experience loss the way Harry does. Ron's never seen anyone close to him die before, and although he was friends with Sirius, Harry was much closer to Snuffles than Ron. Who is close enough to our favorite redhead whose death will cause him to experience loss and how is this going to change him? Thoughts?



Brandon Christopher - Jan 16, 2004 10:12 am (#292 of 1957)

I think that Ron might be on the way to maturity. He defininitely calmed down in the las book but I seriously doubt if keeping all your feelings hidden is a good idea. Maybe a family member will die, Molly Weasley perhaps? I wouldn't mind that as much as if Arthur Weasley died. But I don't think that a close family member dying will change his character that much. He has learned to be jealous of Harry and it will take time to get out of this habit. One sudden event might push him over the edge and cause him to break away from Harry out of anger. Being the typical Ron he might blame Harry for the family member's death and walk away from Harry yet again. After some time he might realize he was wrong yet again but I'm not sure if Harry will take him back this time. I'm not sure if this belongs in the prediction thread but it seemed to fit here so I posted it here instead.



Flame Alligator - Jan 16, 2004 10:30 am (#293 of 1957)

Brandon, I am rereading GoF and I found myself upset and weary in regards to Ron. I am scared to trust him even though Harry takes him back. You are right. You never know when he is going to flare up and abandon Harry because of his jealousy. Because I like Ron this keeps me in turmoil. Harry is so glad to get his friend back and so am I but just like Harry as a reader, I am wounded by Ron's behavior every time I read GoF.

I think Ron would be greatly effected if anyone in his family died. What if Hermione died (heaven forbid) or let's say was kidnapped in order to compromise/catch Harry? Of course, Ron might have a fit of temper and blame Harry. Or this could make Ron permanently put jealousy aside and realize his affection for Hermione.



Brandon Christopher - Jan 16, 2004 11:11 am (#294 of 1957)
Edited by S.E. Jones Jan 16, 2004 8:45 pm

I don't know how Ron would react to such an event. I definitely think that his first instinct would be to place the blame on Harry but after the initial shock wears off I don't know how he'll react. Ron is very mysterious when it comes to his temper, it will flare up at strange times. But when he is angry he stays angry and refuses to admit his mistakes for a long time. One big event could very well tear apart the trio.

Edit: I love Czarina's points below.

->I edited out one line from this post. Email me if you have questions: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]<- S.E. Jones



Czarina - Jan 16, 2004 11:22 am (#295 of 1957)

"One big event could very well tear apart the trio."

Or push it closer together?

I actually think that Rowling is trying to subtlely break up the trio. In GoF, she brought Ginny and Neville more into the story; in OoP, she brought in Luna and the DA. Ron, Hermione and Harry have stayed a trio (and I believe they always will be close friends), but they have also branched apart to try and find their own futures: Hermione with her books and SPEW, Harry with his destiny and Ron with Quidditch.



timrew - Jan 16, 2004 2:36 pm (#296 of 1957)

Also, Ron and Hermione have been made prefects; so they are even made to travel in a different compartment on the Hogwarts Express.

You could be right, Czarina. JKR might just be beginning to, not so much split up the trio, but make them more independent of each other.



Madame Librarian - Jan 16, 2004 6:27 pm (#297 of 1957)

Are we witnessing a gradual loosening of the bonds of the trio so that at a crucial point Harry will be operating alone? In many of the myth/legends the hero must confront the enemy by himself. Can't say for sure JKR will follow this tradition. She certainly has patterned this epic after many classical myths, but she's probably left some wiggle room to go off on her own tack.

Ciao. Barb



Devika - Jan 17, 2004 1:14 am (#298 of 1957)

Barb, I agree with what you are saying, and I think another thing that this 'loosening of the bonds of the trio' is doing is to increase the scope of the books. We are now getting a wider view of the WW. Earlier as readers all we knew about the WW was through the Weasleys and a few indirect bits of information. With the trio getting more independent and accomodating to others, we are seeing a much broader perspective of the books and characters. Oops I think we've veered away from the topic a bit!

About Ron experencing a personal tragedy, as much as I wouldn't want it to happen I think it's going to be a Weasley sibling who either dies or is grieviously(sp?) injured. If some Weasleys have to die then it has to start in Book 6. After all we have just 2 books to go till the end!



popkin - Jan 17, 2004 2:29 am (#299 of 1957)

Ron's family has been personally threatened. His father was almost killed by Lord V., and his sister was posessed and almost killed by the same. No one in his family has been snatched away by death, but he has personal stakes in this war.

It doesn't take a death in the family to wake up a person, or to make him grow up. It takes time. Ron will grow up, just as Harry will grow up, because he is growing older - not because something precious is taken from him.



Devika - Jan 17, 2004 2:35 am (#300 of 1957)

Thanks Popkin, we missed that.
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Flame Alligator - Jan 17, 2004 4:11 am (#301 of 1957)

It seems we are all hankering for Ron to mature. I agree with popkin also. Ron's immaturity can be quite frustrating. I just hope JKR thinks time is the answer and doesn't kill off a Weasley to speed up the process.



Flame Alligator - Jan 17, 2004 7:51 am (#302 of 1957)

Brandon, Ron's temper is the effect of complexes. What triggers complexes is a mystery (anything the ego can't handle). If a person has a lot of complexes or one big inferiority complex. They become a mine field. You can be conversing/relating with them and click, boom, you have hit a complex and a few minutes or seconds later they are attacking you or avoiding you or an issue and you are caught completely unaware. I usually start back tracking trying to figure out what I did to trigger such a reaction. As for myself, I also watch what sets me off. Since I have a lot of experience working on myself, I can control myself. Ron is young but he needs to get a grip on himself. I have seen 10 year olds become aware of a complex and completely conquer it. I wish Ron could do some self observation and acknowledge when he has a problem. At least he could tell Harry the truth about what sets him off. As I am rereading now, I approach Ron with caution. I still like him. He still grabs me by my sense of humor. I love his dark, sardonic remarks.

Edit: Oops! Kind of a double posting here. I didn't mean to I was contemplating Brandon's Post #294. Sorry.



S.E. Jones - Jan 20, 2004 9:09 am (#303 of 1957)

Hm, I was thinking about something said a few posts back about Ron needing to experience something, such as a loss close to him, for his character to change. On the Percy thread, we had theorized that Percy may be under the Imperius curse. Couldn't finding out that a DE had "imprisoned" his brother and caused such a rift in his family bring about the same change, or at least a similar one, as one of his parents or siblings being killed?



timrew - Jan 20, 2004 1:24 pm (#304 of 1957)

There again, Ron has already experienced two near deaths in his family (his Dad and Ginny). Okay, not a loss as such - but very touch-and-go at the time.

I think his character has developed from GoF, where he was petulant and argumentative towards Harry for part of the book. I think he's grown up a lot since then.



siobhan - Jan 25, 2004 7:05 am (#305 of 1957)

I read on another site about a theory that Ron himself will die.In Ps Ronan says in chapter 15 p185 about the death of the unicorn 'always the innocent are the first victims'. It said on the site that the only people known with unicorn hair in their wands were Cedric Diggory and Ron. Is this forshadowing his death? Sorry if this has been discussed already!



S.E. Jones - Jan 25, 2004 12:25 pm (#306 of 1957)

I'd guess that Charlie Weasley also has an unicorn hair wand, since Ron used his old wand in PS, he probably got a similar wand later in life. I don't think it means anything unless it was pointing to Cedric since two people have know died before Ron, he wouldn't be "the first to die"....



nmnjr - Jan 25, 2004 2:48 pm (#307 of 1957)

Maybe Sirius had a unicorn-hair wand also? Not that I think or want that Ron will die, but there is so much we don't know.



SarcasticGinny - Jan 30, 2004 10:00 am (#308 of 1957)

Sorry I can't do a hyperlink effectively, but here's the web address of what I feel is the weirdest theory about Ron I've heard to date:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I don't necessarily buy it, but it's certainly very detailed. What do you all think?



popkin - Jan 30, 2004 2:54 pm (#309 of 1957)

I didn't think it was too far fetched at all. I am almost sorry I read the time travel theory part of it (link to part two), because I'm afraid they're right about one particular character being also another one. I always feel that way when I read an especially good argument.

I'm absolutely sure that they are right in concluding that Weasley is Our King forshadows something that will be revealed about Ron in time. I had thought that it might mean he is some kind of royalty. I don't know that it is telling us that he is the king/general in a chess game/war.



Weeny Owl - Jan 30, 2004 3:19 pm (#310 of 1957)

I agree with popkin about it not being all that far fetched.

One interesting thing about Draco possibly being one of the bishops is that in GoF during the Yule Ball, Harry observed that Draco was wearing black velvet dress robes that made him look like a vicar. I always thought that was odd.

I do think there's much more to Ron and his chess-playing abilities than we've seen so far.

The only thing about this theory that I find disturbing is that at the end of the PS/SS chess match, Ron was captured/removed from the board, however it should be described. I just hope that doesn't mean he'll be killed off.



MrsGump - Jan 30, 2004 4:33 pm (#311 of 1957)

Wow, that is not far fetched. I think that's one of the best written, thought out theories I've heard yet.

And the second part, about Weasley is Our King, is also good. I wonder if the Mirror comment by DD of "everyone will insist on giving me books" has anything to do with Hermione? (sorry, I can't help it, I'm in the R/H camp)



freshwater - Jan 30, 2004 5:02 pm (#312 of 1957)

I hadn't thought about the "Weasley is our King" song as foreshadowing, but it very well could be. Your post made me think of the dream Harry had his first night in #12 Grimmauld Place: something about many legged creatures running up and down the stairs, and Ron and Hermione wearing crowns. I always thought that was a peculiar image to put in Harry's dream, and that it must be a clue to something.



loony- Jan 31, 2004 8:02 am (#313 of 1957)

Hem hem, thanks for your idea.

I also think it`s a very reasonable story. I AM SORRY I read the part about the time travel, because I think it should be handled almost as a spoiler - it makes just so much sense Sad. I`m afraid that I now know much more about the next two books, than I wanted...



Czarina - Jan 31, 2004 11:08 am (#314 of 1957)

Remember, we still know NOTHING of the next two books. They haven't even been written yet. I think the theory proposed on that site is very interesting and thought-out, but there is nothing to indicate that it is true -- that's why it's still a theory. There are holes in the theory that I won't point out.



popkin - Jan 31, 2004 2:28 pm (#315 of 1957)
Edited by Jan 31, 2004 2:29 pm

Okay, Czarina, I think I will. It was very well thought out - on the surface - but, after thinking about the time travel theory for a day, I decided that it must be completely wrong.

I would white this out, but I don't know how. If you don't want to know what some (including me, at first) have felt could be a spoiler, don't read the rest of this post.

The Theory For those of you who have not read the thread we're talking about, I will tell you that it was concluded that Ronald Weasley is Albus Dumbledore. Some of the supporting arguments include that Albus lost his liking for Bertie Botts Beans as a youth, and that's impossible because Bertie Bott was born in 1930 and Dumbledore would have been at least 100 years old before the Beans were on the market. Also, Ron and Dumbledore share some characteristics: long nose (though Dumbledore's looks as if it's been broken several times), long fingers (though Ron's hands and feet are described as big, not long), red hair (and this is really a stretch, since Dumbledore's hair is described as auburn in the secret diary scene. Ron's hair is always described as bright red, carrot red, or flaming red - never auburn. And there is no hint of freckles on Dumbledore's face.) Ron hates the color maroon because in his future he will be marooned in the past. (How could I have fallen for such a feeble supporting argument?)

A Whole Bunch of Holes: If Albus Dumbledore is really a grown up Ron Weasley, why doesn't he know that Sirius is innocent at the beginning of PoA? Why would he allow Hagrid to take the fall for what Riddle has done in CoS? Why would he allow Riddle to rise up as Lord Voldemort? Why doesn't he know what has happened to Bertha Jorkins? Why doesn't he do something that will prevent the death of Cedric? Why doesn't he do something that will prevent the death of Sirius? Why doesn't he know that Arthur Weasley has been attacked by a giant snake until Harry tells him? Why would he go through the charade of using the paintings to find Arthur? And why doesn't he spend Christmas at the Weasley's? If he really is Ron and wants to enjoy his mother's company, and to recieve a pair of thick woolen socks made by her, why isn't he ever known to be in her company socially?

I'm sure there are lots more holes. I'll let you all post those. Anyway, the theory as a whole is still fun to think about - the chess game being a metaphor for what happens in the series. I just don't think the authors of the theory quite got it all right. Maybe we could explore other possible conclusions here.



Jenny M. - Jan 31, 2004 8:05 pm (#316 of 1957)

Where is it in the canon (the books or the JKR interviews) that Bertie Botts was born in 1930? And isn't it possible, even if that date is canon, that somebody took some Bertie Botts jelly beans back in time to give them to little Albie?



popkin - Jan 31, 2004 10:38 pm (#317 of 1957)

The date is apparently on the trading cards, which were approved by JKR. I don't know if that's canon or not.



Devika - Feb 1, 2004 1:01 am (#318 of 1957)

Popkin, I fully agree with you. The time-travel theory isn't a very solid idea. I mean it's got too many holes (like you pointed out) and somehow it just doesn't ring true.. I mean if I were to discover this at the end I would feel cheated as a reader, because there has been nothing to suggest such a thing so far. I'm not talking about blatant hints, but more a sixth-sense kind of feel to it. I can see no similarity at all between Ron and Dumbledore, most of all because DD is a powerful intelligent wizard, and Ron, I'm sorry to say hasn't exactly shown himself very powerful. If he did indeed metamorphosise into the most powerful wizard, there should be something in him to suggest that.

That apart, I must say, the first part about the chess game made a lot more sense. Most of the paralells drawn did seem logical especially the white knight being Draco. But I'm not too sure about Ron's position. We may be reading a bit too deep into it, because I think Ron was the 'king' only because he was a good chess player. I honestly don't see him as displaying skills superior to Harry's and Harry just taking orders from him in the final battle. I like Ron too, but somehow I can't see him taking centre-stage... just as the books can't be "Neville Longbottom and the....", they can't be "Ronald Weasley and the...". But I did like the point about Ron's final fate in the game reflecting what might happen to him in the final battle. Though somehow it reminded me of Mrs. Weasley's boggart, it could mean that Ron does end up injured or maybe 'knocked out'



mollis - Feb 1, 2004 8:56 am (#319 of 1957)

This is a very interesting theory about the chess game being a metaphor for the series as a whole. Thank you Sarcastic Ginny for posting the link. This theory does seem to have a lot of merit. I'll have to think on it awhile. I don't however have much confidence in the Ron is Dumbledore part of the theory, but I think the rest of it may hold some water.



Czarina - Feb 1, 2004 9:30 am (#320 of 1957)

Yeah, if they had stopped after the chess game, it'd be believable. But then, maybe it's just a matter of coincidence and interpretation. Maybe Rowling didn't really mean for the game to be a metaphor, or she decided to make it a metaphor afterwards by patterning bits of the series after the game (since it WAS in the first book -- she could use it for reference).



popkin - Feb 1, 2004 9:41 am (#321 of 1957)

Since she had the whole series blocked out from the beginning, she could have patterned the chess game on the final battle, or on major plot twists.

If (big if) this is the case, I think we could conclude that Ron will survive the series, since he survived the chess game.



Marie E. - Feb 1, 2004 11:47 am (#322 of 1957)

But what if he sacrifices himself, as he did in the chess game? He was injured in the chess game, right? In a battle against Voldemort or DE's a sacrificial move could be fatal.



Hem Hem - Feb 1, 2004 11:59 am (#323 of 1957)

P/SS seems to have a lot less foreshadowing for later books in it than the later books. If the whole chess game metaphor was planned from the start, my entire perspective towards the first book will drastically change. I do like Czarinaa's idea, though, that JKR decided afterwards to incorporate some elements of the game into later books.

The one bit that this theory picked up on that has extreme merit is the Ron/King references. Dumbledore is a leader, but he is not a king. In fact, the WW seems mysteriously devoid of Kings; there are Mugwumps, Ministers, Warlocks, and Dark Lords...but never any kings. Odd.



boop - Feb 2, 2004 5:32 am (#324 of 1957)

Wow I just read the theory about Ron and Dumbledore. That was a very though out theory. The theory about the chess game I believe this could be true. As for Dumbledore time traveling I really believe he has and will continue doing so. I don't believe Dumbledore and Ron are the same person. I have not seen enough information to convince me. So I don't believe they are one in the same. I just can't see JKR doing this in her books.



mollis - Feb 2, 2004 5:51 am (#325 of 1957)

I don't know guys. I think if the chess game is a metaphor for the series it was definitely planned out. I don't see any reason why JKR would conform her plot to a random chess game (if it was an after-the-fact metaphor) I do think that it is very likely that the chess game could actually reflect the major plot of the series. Considering that she had the whole series mapped out before ever writing the first book, I think it is definitely possible that she could have worked the metaphor into the chess game.

As for Ron is DD, I don't think I'm going to be able to accept that one. Mainly because I don't recall any special sort of look or connection between Ron and DD. If I was 150 and looking at my 11-yr old self, I think it would be hard to disguise the feelings and emotion that would create. There just doesn't seem to be any canon evidence to support it. DD is the King in the chess game, Ron just took temporary command during that battle.

Anyway, that's my take on things now. Perhaps, if we want to continue talking about the chess game as a metaphor for the series, we should open up a new thread, rather than clog up Ron's thread?



Mare - Feb 2, 2004 8:12 am (#326 of 1957)

I think that is a great idea, because discussion about this theory already "invaded" the socks thread. There is just so much to discuss about it, that it doesn't fit in anything we have yet. Sooo...

Marè "The chess play/Ron is Dumbledore essay." 2/2/04 8:11am

Do me and all the others who are going to read it a favour and repost your (best) theories over there!



S.E. Jones - Feb 3, 2004 6:48 pm (#327 of 1957)

Devika: Most of the paralells drawn did seem logical especially the white knight being Draco. But I'm not too sure about Ron's position. We may be reading a bit too deep into it, because I think Ron was the 'king' only because he was a good chess player. I honestly don't see him as displaying skills superior to Harry's and Harry just taking orders from him in the final battle.

Okay, I'm lost. I couldn't get the second link to the "Weasley is our King" thing to work, so maybe that's it, but what is the reference to Ron as a King? I get the Draco as the White Bishop vs Harry as the Black Bishop thing. I even get Ron's role in the game, and I think it is more representative of Dumbledore's role in the books than Ron's actual future role in the second war, but it is certainly possible. I also got what they were saying about Harry's change in attitude, about him blindly following orders in books 1-4 and questioning orders/taking the lead in books 5-7. But I didn't see any mention of a King aside from Voldemort being the White King in the game. Is this from the second theory or are people blending the theories or is there a third one that I don't know about? Please help!



Devika - Feb 4, 2004 12:51 am (#328 of 1957)

SE, I think I got my words a bit wrong. If I remember correctly what the article was saying was that Ron played the twin roles of the knight and the leader. I'm not sure if it's mentioned anywhere, but I guess I substituted King for leader....my mistake...but if someone can tell me how exactly the word king came into my head I'll be obliged!



mollis - Feb 4, 2004 6:34 am (#329 of 1957)
Edited by Feb 4, 2004 6:35 am

As I understand it, Sarah and Devika, the theory proposes that during the chess game Ron was the knight (physically) but was also directing the other pieces around, which would be the job of the King (the leader). In the books it is DD who orchestrates everything, so it would be natural that DD would be represented as the Black King on the Chess board. Since DD and Ron could both be represented as the King, the authors of the theory jumped to the conclusion that DD must be Ron who travel back in time. A pretty big leap without much evidence, in my opinion.

Mare has started a separate thread to discuss this theory, since people seemed to like it. That way Ron's thread doesn't get all clogged up with this theory. Marè "The chess play/Ron is Dumbledore essay." 2/2/04 8:19am



Mare - Feb 4, 2004 6:50 am (#330 of 1957)

And the DD = ron theory is explained in the essay behind the ""Weasley is our King" link, there is even a third link, so yes, you are missing things Sarah.



S.E. Jones - Feb 4, 2004 7:09 pm (#331 of 1957)

which would be the job of the King (the leader)

They refer to him as the Player not the King, maybe that will help some people with the confusion. Possibly?



Julia. - Feb 29, 2004 9:40 pm (#332 of 1957)

WOOOOO-HOOOOO! I'm the first to wish Ron a Happy Brithday!!!YAY!



Czarina - Feb 29, 2004 9:52 pm (#333 of 1957)

Hah -- Ron Weasley is 24. And we still don't know what has become of him...



scully jones - Mar 1, 2004 6:37 am (#334 of 1957)

Happy BIRTHDAAAAAYYYY RON! You're older than my boyfriend, wow...



Gina R Snape - Mar 1, 2004 10:37 am (#335 of 1957)

:sniff, sniff: They all just grow up soooo fast...



Karla Labanda - Mar 3, 2004 10:17 am (#336 of 1957)

It's too late, but I have to do it.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, RON FELIZ CUMPLEAÑOS.



icthestrals - Mar 4, 2004 6:08 am (#337 of 1957)

I'll go ahead and ask my question here. This is based on the on-line chat JKR gave yesterday. She said Ron's middle name is Bilius. Isn't this the name of the uncle that saw the Grim and died? I don't have my book (POA) with me to look it up. If this is the case, does it mean anything?



Fawkes Forever - Mar 4, 2004 6:15 am (#338 of 1957)

Hmmm, very interesting observation.

I'll just checked the lexicon, & you're right... "Uncle Bilius - Saw a Grim and died within 24 hours" (PA6)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]



alexa - Mar 4, 2004 5:31 pm (#339 of 1957)

Seems like JKR is setting up all the hints to prepare us for Ron's death. First she said "Ron, poor boy, is Bilius". Ron's middle name is Bilius, the uncle who is dead. Then when someone asked her what is Ron's job when he leaves school, she said "Well, assuming he lives to leave school"

All these are a bad 'omen' that hint to me that Ron is the next person close to Harry to die. Don't be mistaken, I definitely do not want Ron to die, but......Feeling Blue



Czarina - Mar 5, 2004 7:25 am (#340 of 1957)

I figured Rowling wanted to keep the suspense going whether Ron was going to die or not. If she said "He will work for the Ministry" then we KNOW that he won't die. She had to say "assuming that he lives" in order for us to keep speculating!

Yes, Bilius is definitely not a good namesake! He was definitely the youngest son and I bet Molly had gone through all the family names by the time Ron came along. Does it mean that Ron is going to die? Maybe. There have been plenty of hints. Personally, I think Ron will NEARLY die, sacrificing himself for his friends, and we will all be in tears at the end of Bk7, but he will still live. (Ok, so I'm a hopeless romantic...)



Madame Librarian - Mar 5, 2004 5:01 pm (#341 of 1957)

Regarding Ron's middle name: Bilius sounds just like the word bilious, which is defined as suffering from a condition brought on by too much bile (a liver enzyme). In olden days bile was one of the four humors that were used to define what kind of person you were. Someone who was bilious was gloomy, easily angered, kind of a pill, to borrow an expression from today. The word bilious was also used to describe a color--bilious green. One might use it to describe how someone looked just before--you should pardon the expression--losing their lunch.

What this means for good ol' Ron I cannot say. I will say that Molly and Arthur must have really loved this uncle to name Ron after him and continue the use of this decidedly weird moniker.

Ciao. Barb



Mrs. Sirius - Mar 6, 2004 9:04 am (#342 of 1957)

Bilious, ughh. JKR is piling on those hints. On the other hand she has said that she does not believe in propheseies and even in the wizarding world true see-ings are hard to come by.

I really hope she is just toying with us with these death clues. It is just unbearably cruel to have Harry lose yet another person that he is close too. However, if Ron does die, I revert back to my theories posted on 'ship.



milti girl - Mar 7, 2004 6:21 am (#343 of 1957)

# gasp* What a name!!! Bilius!!!! (To all the Biliuses out there, I'm so sorry.) I'm soooo disappointed. I thought Ron would have an awesome middle name like...I don't know...Bryan or Alton or something. Oh well.



Madame Librarian - Mar 7, 2004 8:40 am (#344 of 1957)

Maybe she was just playing up the backfired slug curse that poor Ron had do endure. That sure was the kind of incident that would make someone turn a bilious color. In the long run, fortunately, no true harm came of it.

Ciao. Barb



Chris. - Mar 7, 2004 8:53 am (#345 of 1957)

Bilious can also mean bad-tempered, which Ron is sometimes



Madame Librarian - Mar 7, 2004 8:56 am (#346 of 1957)

Practically everyone but DD is bad-tempered at one time or another in these books! Well...maybe Neville, too.

Ciao. Barb



Luanee - Mar 9, 2004 6:24 pm (#347 of 1957)
Edited by Hem Hem Mar 9, 2004 6:32 pm

Shall we change the title of this thread to Ron Bilius Weasley? LOL

Edit: I don't see why not, Luanee! --Hem Hem



The giant squid - Mar 9, 2004 11:35 pm (#348 of 1957)

I doubt Ron would be so thrilled... "Oh, bloody brilliant! Tell the whole world, will you?" Very Happy

--Mike



Fawkes Forever - Mar 10, 2004 2:42 am (#349 of 1957)

Mike.... that sounds just like Ron



Czarina - Mar 10, 2004 5:17 am (#350 of 1957)

It's only fair then that we should change the Ginny, Hermione and Harry threads too -- we know their middle names.
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Kip Carter - Mar 10, 2004 5:24 am (#351 of 1957)

No more changing of the names unless there is an excellent reason! I feel that by inserting "Bilius" as Ron's middle name may be correct; it may be conceived as an added humorous addition. I am changing the title of this thread back before this name changing gets out of hand! That's my call! I hope you understand!



Gina R Snape - Mar 10, 2004 10:14 am (#352 of 1957)

Thank you Kip. I thought the middle name thing was a bit cumbersome, personally. Even if it was funny.



Madame Librarian - Mar 10, 2004 2:42 pm (#353 of 1957)

Thanks, Kip. I was hoping it was merely a fleeting recognition of a new and decidedly humorous factoid. I can only tolerate so many changes at any given time. Whew.

Ciao. Barb



The giant squid - Mar 10, 2004 10:55 pm (#354 of 1957)

Kip, thanks for letting saner(?) minds prevail. I may be relatively new here, but I can see the potential to take things *way* overboard sometimes! Smile

Fawkes: Thanks. I was a little worried it wouldn't read right to native Englanders, as I only have JKR's (and Steve Kloves') dialogue to go by.

And, to try to steer this thread back on track a bit, what do you think Ron's opinion of his middle name is? Is he proud of his Uncle Bilius, or was my pseudo-quote above more likely?



Jenny M. - Mar 10, 2004 11:13 pm (#355 of 1957)

Oh, squid, your quote was so spot-on I could hear Ron's voice saying it!



Essidji - Mar 11, 2004 1:05 am (#356 of 1957)

I think the fact of being proud of a relative doesn't prevent someone from not liking his (her) name. So there is a good chace that, even if Ron likes his uncle, he would have done anything to keep his second name secret. You really got a good point there, Giant Squid. Congratulations for your very right-sounding impersonation! Very Happy



Czarina - Mar 11, 2004 4:44 am (#357 of 1957)

Indeed, giant squid, I couldn't have said it better myself.

I wonder if, since Uncle Bilius died after seeing a Grim in 24hours, Ron is a bit frightened for himself? I mean, it seems rather ominous to be named after someone who died so tragically...No wonder Ron didn't want to go following spiders into the Forest! Would he be afraid of following in his uncle's footsteps?



Gina R Snape - Mar 11, 2004 8:36 pm (#358 of 1957)

I rather suspect that, like many aspects of his life, Ron is decidedly unhappy about his middle name. So much so, in fact, that he's never bothered to tell anyone---which is why we had to hear it from JKR!



Molly Weasly Wannabe - Mar 15, 2004 10:08 am (#359 of 1957)

I keep reading about Ron predicting things, and people thinking he is going to be a Seer. Can someone refresh my memory on when he does these predictions? For some reason my mind is drawing a blank.



Fawkes Forever - Mar 16, 2004 3:45 am (#360 of 1957)

Certainly Molly, nice name & welcome to the forum by the way!

Most of Rons predictions have been discussed in this thread, but that may take a bit of reading seeing as there are 360 messages! (you can use the nifty search function however (in the blue bar beside 'Mark as Read' link & search 'this discussion')

The one I remember the most is in CoS, when discussing Tom Riddles Services to the School award... Ron jokes "What did he get it for... murdering Myrtle" (not exact quote) Which scarily turns out to be true There are loads more.... can't remember them off hand, but mostly when he [Ron] is messing around in Divination Class...... Oh & his vision in the mirror of Erised... Quidditch cup & that!

Personally speaking I don't really know if Ron is a seer... It could just be a clever tool that JK uses to feed us little hints... I'll keep an open mind however..

There may have been a list at some stage.... but I haven't been able to locate it *sinks back into search mode*



Denise P. - Mar 16, 2004 6:05 am (#361 of 1957)

If you read The Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter, they put forth the notion that if Ron is seriously talking about something, he is usually wrong. If he makes a joke about it, he usually is right. There are many cases where he makes an offhand comment that later becomes true. I personally don't buy into Ron or Ginny being a seer.



milti girl - Apr 4, 2004 8:18 am (#362 of 1957)

There is a very nice Ron Weasley place I stumbled across while surfing the net.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

It's a great place with some cool essays on Ron. Admittedly, most of those essays are on this site too, and most of the topics have been discussed in detail right here. But you might want to check it out if you like Ron (like me) or even if you don't.

EDIT: Okay, now I feel silly. Because while I was reading about Ron it said, for more information, go to Harry Potter Lexicon!! Lol!!



Mrs. Sirius - Apr 10, 2004 9:59 pm (#363 of 1957)

Ok, I know that this subject has been discussed at length on this thread but one more time: In GoF the Weasley family plus Harry and Hermione go to the Quidditch World Cup. Mr. Weasley got the tickets thanks to Ludo Bagman.

On reading that I did not have the impression that the tickets were free (if the tickets had been free Mr. Weasley would have perhaps placed a much lager wager on the game with Ludo), just that he got access to such top of the line tickets because of Bagman. When Lucius Malfoy enters the box, he insults the Weasleys asking what they had to sell to buy such tickets. Where as the Malfoy's got the tickets with Cornelius Fudge because they'd made a generous contribution to St. Mungos. Fudge says as much, "He's here as my guest."

My question then goes back to Ron's constant inferior feelings because of his family's poverty. Ten tickets, top box tickets, to such an event are not cheap by any monetary measure. Such tickets in the muggle world could easily cost hundreds of dollars.

If Mr. Weasley did indeed pay several hundred dollars to buy these tickets, how poor can they really be?



The giant squid - Apr 10, 2004 11:16 pm (#364 of 1957)

Mrs. S, I tend to think that the Weasleys aren't nearly as poor as Ron makes out. Yes, there's that scene where they scoop the last bits out of their Gringotts vault, but who here hasn't had one of those times where you need to make a major purchase just before payday? I think Arthur makes enough to get them all by. Ron has simply been dealing with hand-me-downs all his life simply because he has 5 older brothers and a mother with a penchant for the economical. The Weasleys could be rolling in galleons, but if you're wearing the same shirt your fifth-older brother did, you'd feel a bit put out too.

--Mike



Tomoé - Apr 11, 2004 11:11 am (#365 of 1957)
Edited Apr 11, 2004 12:13 pm

"About twenty purple and gilt chairs stood in two rows here, and Harry, filling into the front seats with the Weasley." (UK GoF, ch.8, p.88)

8 seats in the first row, out of twenty some in two rows, in the top box of the Quidditch World Cup. Priceless.

'I like Ludo,' said Mr Weasley, frowning. 'He was the one who got us such good tickets for the Cup. I did him a bit of a favour: his brother, Otto, got into a spot of trouble - a lawn-mower with unnatural powers - I smoothed the whole thing over.' (UK GoF, ch.5, p.58)

In the Muggle World, ticket in the top box of any sport event are not for sale. The corporation or association that buy the tickets or present the show use them to return favors or to do favors to business/government partners or possible partners, these tickets are gifts not merchandises.

Following this logic, Bagman, as the head of the Dept. of sport, had the first choice of tickets, he gave Arthur 8 guest tickets in the first row in a deal to save his brother. Fudge, as the Minister, had the second choice, he gave three guest tickets of the second row to the Malfoy for their generous donation to St Mungo's. Crouch, as the head of the Dept. of magical Cooperation, had the third choice, two guest tickets in the second row.

I'm sure it was quite a chock for Lucius to see the Weasleys in the first row as Bagman guests. In that regard, Arthur beat Lucius at his own game, 8 first row tickets vs 3 second row tickets.



Tomoé - Apr 11, 2004 9:56 pm (#366 of 1957)

I have to correct myself, Arthur didn't got 8 tickets in the first row, he got 10 tickets. I forgot Charlie and Bill. ^_^

I was thinking about Arthur's 10 places, that's too much for saving Ludo's brother. And who's the only person Fudge did present to the Bulgarians? Harry Potter. If you want Harry Potter with you in the top box, who do you ask? Definitely not the Dursley, Arthur brought the kid from the Leaky Cauldron to King Cross last year, his son is a good friend of famous Potter. Ten places, that sounds like Arthur's whole family plus Harry Potter (Molly giving up her ticket to Hermione).

The only top box guests seemed to be the 8 Weasleys, H&H, the Malfoys and Crouch Jr's spare seat, the rest were occupied by Bulgarian and English Officials. That definitely sounds like Ludo needed Arthur to get his brother out of trouble, he then given him the tickets in exchange of the promise to bring Harry Potter along. Notice that Arthur wouldn't had take no for an answer from the Dursley.



Czarina - Apr 12, 2004 4:19 am (#367 of 1957)

Excellent observations. 10 points to whatever House you're in!



Mrs. Sirius - Apr 12, 2004 8:54 pm (#368 of 1957)
Edited Apr 12, 2004 9:56 pm

Interesting point Tomoé, I had not look at it from that point of view. However, while I can agree that Bagman and Fudge would opportunistically try to use Harry for their own advancement, I would be very disappointed if Arthur participated in a scheme to use Harry like this. But, call me an idealist.

While it is quite probable that the Weasley's didn't pay for the tickets, my post really goes more to an old discussion about how poor the Weasley's really are. If you go by Ron, his family is so poor, they are barely managing.

Since this story is told from Harry's point of view, we hear more about the Weasley's poverty because that is what Harry hears. If Harry were friends with Percy we might hear how well connected the Weasley's are, or if Ginny or the twins were Harry's source again the family would look very different, because they have very different personalities. Ron is the one member of the family, in GOF, who has not really distinguished himself. He hasn't any particular personality traits, like prefect, great at quidditch, class clown, smartest, only girl. At a loss, he clings to his poverty for distinction.

Even if Arthur didn't pay for the tickets, he's high up enough in the MOM to be in a position to get the tickets.



haymoni - Apr 13, 2004 4:11 am (#369 of 1957)

I think it goes back to Ron being old enough to remember having 5 older brothers still at home and getting the hand-me-downs and all. I agree with the earlier comments regarding Bill, Charlie, Percy and now the Twins being on their own, helping to free up some Weasley cash.



Molly Weasly Wannabe - Apr 18, 2004 7:14 pm (#370 of 1957)
Edited Apr 18, 2004 8:22 pm

I am not quiet sure if I posted my "theory" on Ron here or not...so if I have, please forgive me for repeating myself. I do believe I posted in on the predicitons for book 6 and 7 though. Now, I don't have anything against Ron at all. However,I do think he will become the wormtail of this HHR group. It is no secret that Ron does get a bit jealous of Harry and all the stuff he has become "famous" for. To me, it comes across to that he (Ron) has a bit of a thing for Hermonie. I think that Harry and Hermonie will date (not saying they will be "together"....just date) in one of the books. This is what will drive Ron over the edge with Harry. He will be so jealous that once again Harry has something he wants but can't have. I think that this will cause Ron to betray Harry in some way. I hope I am wrong....but ya never know.

I have also reading some of the theories on how Vold will die. Some people think that Harry will protect someone with his love, and causing a spell to bounce off him (once again) and hit Vold and kill Vold for good this time. I think if this is how Vold will die, that Harry will jump in the way of protecting Ron. Here is the set up: Ron betrays Harry and goes over to the other side with Vold because Vold makes promises to him that he will have the world at his finger tips. This is something Ron can't pass up because he has never had anything all is own growing up. Ron will do something to mess up Vold's plans and for this he will pay dearly. Vold is about to cast the worst spell on Ron to punish him for messing up his plans. Harry jumps in front of Ron to push him out of the way. Although Ron has betrayed him, Harry still loves Ron like a brother. In the process of trying to push Ron out of the way, the spell hits Harry and it bounces off of him and hits Vold and kills Vold. Harry was once again protected with the greatest gift.....Love.



Brandon Christopher - Apr 18, 2004 11:10 pm (#371 of 1957)
Edited Apr 19, 2004 12:11 am

Oh my god I love you Melissa - major props to you gal!

It would be so very fitting if Ron betrayed harry and Harry saved his life in return. Sounds exactly like both character in my opinion. Except I would like to see Ron get his comeupance at some point in there also. And I love how you throw in the guaranteed H/Hr shipping that will go on.

# salavates on keyboard in anticipation*

Sits patiently and waits for all that Melissa has said to happen...




haymoni - Apr 19, 2004 6:06 am (#372 of 1957)

I cannot believe Ron would be a Wormtail - "I let you sleep in my bed!!!"

No way! Ron was jealous of Harry in GOF and then got over it. He, better than almost anyone, has come to learn that it is not easy to be Harry Potter.

I also don't think that Ron would do anything that could betray his parents.



mike miller - Apr 19, 2004 8:01 am (#373 of 1957)

Ron could not betray Harry any more than Hagrid could. On the contrary, I think Ron is just coming into his own. His performance in the last Quidditch match in OofP is just the beginning of how he will excell in that arena. I would not surprise me if Ron were made Quiditch Captain as he once saw in the mirror of Erised. All Ron has lacked is a little confidence. Perhaps he will have fewer "hand me downs" now that there are only two Weasley children left at home.

Ron has been Harry's best friend for one-third of his life. He has seen first hand what it's like to be Harry and I don't think he can be tempted with anything Voldemort has to offer. I see Ron, like most of the major characters, starting to mature in book 6 in preparation for what will come in book 7.



S.E. Jones - Apr 19, 2004 8:02 am (#374 of 1957)

Save for that brief episode in GoF, we've never really seen Ron jealous of Harry. He's been overshadowed by him, certainly, and that finally erupted into jealousy, as I'm sure it has with his brothers at various times (I can understand that coming from a large family), but he quickly gets over it when he clearly sees that Harry is really in danger and not in for some fun ride. He also quickly changes to backing him up and rooting for him, even seems to go out of his way to do so to prove that he doesn't want to be at odds again (as two brothers would) through the rest of the book. Throughout the rest of the series we've seen Ron be nothing but loyal to Harry, even to the point of nearly getting himself killed. In PoA, he defiantly proclaims to Sirius Black, who he thinks is a mass murderer, that "If you want to kill Harry, you'll have to kill us too!" Even though the effort of standing on his broken leg was draining him, he still stood by Harry and said it. I can't see Ron turning against Harry because it just isn't in his character, in my opinion. He sees Harry as a brother and someone worthy of his loyalty and has displayed more times than he has contradicted it....



Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Apr 19, 2004 8:07 am (#375 of 1957)
Edited Apr 19, 2004 9:08 am

I haven't read this whole thread (it's a little daunting at 372 posts), so I apologize if I'm repeating what has already been said. I don't think Ron is capable of betrayal. His whole character is marked by deep seated loyalty to friends and family. His jealousy in GOF is short lived and a necessary step to cementing his friendship with Harry. However, Ron has shown an incredible weakness for the power of suggestion: I'm thinking of the Veelas at the Quidditch match, the Imperious curse in Moody's class. I think he could easily be made to betray Harry but not through his own free will.

EDIT: I see I've posted within minutes of mike miller and S.E. Jones.



haymoni - Apr 19, 2004 8:36 am (#376 of 1957)

I don't think too many males had much control of themselves when it came to the Veela.

I also don't fault Ron for falling victim to the Imperious curse - that's the whole point of the curse, is it not?

He could however, depending on how far JKR takes the 'ship issue, have to decide between saving Harry & saving Hermione. Or Hermione could be used, as Sirius was, to lead Ron away from Harry.



Weeny Owl - Apr 19, 2004 9:05 am (#377 of 1957)

I agree with you, Sarah. (Love your avatar, by the way.)

Ron has had his own issues to overcome just as all of us do, but after all the things the trio have gone through, and especially the battle in the Department of Mysteries, I just can't see him banding together with Death Eaters and Voldie no matter what happens.



Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Apr 19, 2004 11:45 am (#378 of 1957)

haymoni , regarding the Imperious Curse: Yes, that is the point of it, but Harry was able to throw it off. More importantly, Ron was still affected by the curse, even after class " 'Yeah, I know,' said Ron, who was skipping on every alternate step. He had had much more difficulty with the curse than Harry, though Moody assured him the effects would wear off by lunchtime." I don't think this is just filler. I think we'll see this again with Ron.



S.E. Jones - Apr 19, 2004 11:53 am (#379 of 1957)

Yeah, but I'm betting that a bunch of people had much more difficulty with the curse than Harry, don't forget that Harry's ability to throw off the curse is unusual, i.e. it's something unique to Harry, like being a parseltongue and being part of the prophecy and being the only one to survive the AK and being able to produce a caporeal Patronus at age 13, etc.... Just because Ron isn't Harry doesn't mean it will lead to him betraying Harry, no more so than any of the other kids in his class.....



Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Apr 19, 2004 12:10 pm (#380 of 1957)

I agree, Harry is exceptional. I don't expect Ron to be able to do what Harry does. But that's really not my point. First, as I stated earlier, I do not think Ron would ever willingly betray Harry. I think the world of Ron. His loyalty is just one reason. I have many. However, just like Harry (who's impulsive) Ron has his weaknesses. And I think JKR was foreshadowing a future event with that scene. Don't forget, she's dropped lots of hints along the way about wizards being controlled by the Imperious Curse, and I don't think it was simply for the Crouch storyline. However, I could be wrong. I hope I am. I would never want Ron to be the vessel through which Voldemort works his evil magic. But I think something like it will come to pass. Who knows, maybe it will be Hermione. Wouldn't that be a dark horse?



freshwater - Apr 19, 2004 7:09 pm (#381 of 1957)

There have been a lot of comments about Ron being jealous of Harry in GoF....I would characterize it differently. Ron felt betrayed and excluded by Harry, because he (Ron) believed that Harry had gone to some lengths to enter the Tri-Wizard, and had deliberately left Ron out of this adventure.

I agree that there have been plenty of references to Ron's dissatisfaction with his family's lower income level, and some direct information from Hermione about how he is overshadowed by Harry in the eyes of many. But, I still feel that his disaffection from Harry in GoF stems primarily from his (mistaken)sense of Harry having excluded him from an important adventure in which he had already expressed a strong interest.



draco all the way - Apr 20, 2004 5:25 am (#382 of 1957)
Edited Apr 20, 2004 6:26 am

Ron does seem like he wants everything Harry has doesn't he. And he probably sometimes feels its unfair that he's always so close to the limelight but not quite in it. Maybe Voldie will recognise this one black streak in Ron's personality and pounce on it. He'll offer Ron power, wealth and fame in hopes that Ron will betray Harry. Ron might think about it and shock all his loved ones that he might even consider such an offer. Then finally he'll decide that even though he is jealous of Harry he still thinks of him like a brother. He'll remember that Harry is his best friend and the little boy who first befriended him on the train despite his "too short" robes. And then he'll throw Voldie's ridiculous offer out the window and help his best friend kick his scrawny little butt! And thus, in that one moment, Ron will finally get the glory he deserves for being the best darn sidekick in the world!

Or, you know, he might die.



mollis - Apr 20, 2004 6:00 am (#383 of 1957)

I agree with you freshwater. Ron is a good and loyal friend. He's not perfect. Nobody is. Yeah, he wishes he had more money. So do most people I know. That doesn't mean he would betray his friends or family just to get his hands on some gold. Percy, maybe, Ron, no way.



Czarina - Apr 20, 2004 7:09 am (#384 of 1957)

I think in OoP, Ron finally gets a lot of the attention that he once craved. He becomes a prefect, thus making him "higher" than Harry (I'm actually surprised that he didn't pull rank on him in fifth year as a joke), and he gains Quidditch fame as the Keeper for Gryffindor WITHOUT Harry even being on the team! In Bk6, this fame might very well continue. If Dumbledore thinks that Harry has too much to handle already -- and I think he still does -- then it will make perfect sense to make Ron a prefect again. And while Harry will no doubt be put back on the team, I don't think he will be Captain. That would probably be more work than being a prefect. The captainship will probably go to Katie Bell (if she is still around) or to Ron.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least that Ron went home after OoP and started practicing Quidditch. He would want to prove to everyone that his performance at the final wasn't a fluke. If he did so, he would greatly improve and he just might be considered material for Gryffindor Captain.

Thus, in Bk6, Ron would be prefect and Captain. He would gain an identity beyond "Harry Potter's best friend." This already started to happen in OoP, and I see no reason for it to discontinue in the series. Yet I can't see this fame going to his head enough for him to betray his family and friends.



Brandon Christopher - Apr 20, 2004 10:38 am (#385 of 1957)

I would like to point something out from OotP. Page 704 Harry is strongly reminded of the way his father acted in the pensieve when Ron continues to ruffle his hair and brag about the quidditch match. Harry notices these similarities between his arrogant father and Ron - is this a change for the good? James arrived at Hogwarts arrogant and self absorbed, Ron developed it in his fifth year. James had seven years to get over his giant ego, Ron developed it so late in his years I wonder if he'll overcome it... I've said before that Ron getting everything he wants isn't good for him. We're seeing some major changes in him, especially towards the end of OotP. All the things Ron's getting are going to his head, even Harry noticed this. Ron prooved that he likes getting what he wants, and I definitely think it's a strong possibility that Voldemort could lure Ron away from Harry. Intentional or not I strongly believe that Ron will betray Harry again.



Padfoot - Apr 20, 2004 10:50 am (#386 of 1957)

I don't think Ron will ever betray Harry. Ron is a loyal best friend who I just can't picture changing so much. Ron might start to act like James, however once he goes home to his family, he will be treated like normal and so he will act his normal self once again.



Star Crossed - Apr 20, 2004 11:29 am (#387 of 1957)

If Ron is acting like James, wouldn't that make Hermione the Lily? *innocent look* Sorry, I'll save it for the 'ship, 'ship. Anyways.

I could never see Ron betraying Harry. All the evidence you're pouring out, it makes him a regular kid. I like being shoved in the lime light. I like getting what I want. And when I do stuff really well, I flaunt it. Does that mean I'm going to betray my best mate? Of course not! It just means I'm an individual, which is exactly how Ron is.

I can never deny the fact that Ron could be tricked. He isn't the brightest of the bunch. Someone may lure him in, but I just don't see how. HRH are almost always together, and Harry and Hermione would surely pick up on the trick.



Molly Weasly Wannabe - Apr 20, 2004 11:52 am (#388 of 1957)

It's ALWAYS the one who everyone thinks is lease likly to betray someone.



Star Crossed - Apr 20, 2004 12:05 pm (#389 of 1957)

Then it must be Harry who's going to betray Harry, because he's the least likeliest to betray himself.



Madame Librarian - Apr 20, 2004 12:17 pm (#390 of 1957)

I don't at all think of Ron as stupid, just a little dense maybe. Lots of kids (boys mostly--all right, all right, I retract that) are a bit self-absorbed and go through a clueless stage. That's all I think it is with Ron being the last to catch on sometimes. He's just not focusing as well as Hermione because...well, no one can. As for comparing Ron's and Harry's ability to focus...hmmm, even before he was aware of the prophecy, Harry has spent his relatively short life staying alert and tuned it to things because he's always been on someone's hit list. Ron's been able to have a normal childhood with a loving family (squabbling, but normal)--he can daydream, relax, find companionship, seek help without being anxious or ignored.

Listen, Ron has a great sense of humor and his ability to throw out funny one-liners (or even bad puns) speaks to a quick wit and broad intelligence.

Acting on his own, I don't see Ron becoming a betrayer. With spells and curses, well, almost everyone could be forced to do evil.

Ciao. Barb



Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Apr 20, 2004 12:45 pm (#391 of 1957)

Regarding Brandon's comparison of Ron and James. I don't think that points to Ron becoming arrogant in his late teenage years but rather helps Harry understand that a great mate can act like an idiot sometimes. It helps Harry put into perspective what Sirius said about all of them being jerks and growing out of it. Harry knows Ron's a great friend and he can balance that against Ron's obvious pleasure (and innocent boastfulness) in succeeding at Quidditch.



tracie1976 - Apr 20, 2004 1:56 pm (#392 of 1957)

I'm going to have to agree with Brandon on this one. Ron does seem to start acting a little self absorbed in OotP. I think if Ron gets over this "phase" he will need a good "slap in the face" ie: a death in the family. As for Ron betraying Harry, there might be a possibility especially if he enjoys the attention from being prefect and helping win the quidditch cup.

# ok done rambling for now lol*



Mad Madame Mim - Apr 20, 2004 3:31 pm (#393 of 1957)

If Percy is going to betray the Weasleys than it would be silly to have Ron do it as well. In JKR's chat she said that Percy was acting on his own. I know she didn't say if he would/was teaming with DEs. However, she is leading one to assume that he is. And if Ron was to betray Harry is there enough time for JKR to set it up, deploy, and redeem him before in the next two books?



Weeny Owl - Apr 20, 2004 7:04 pm (#394 of 1957)

With the Imperius Curse being what it is, virtually anyone could betray anyone.

I can see Ron being a victim of the Imperius Curse and doing something that could get Harry in a dangerous situation, but I cannot see Ron willingly betraying Harry, Hermione, his parents, or the Order.

All the people we've seen have their own strengths and weaknesses, and Ron is no exception. Harry has his issues, Hermione has hers, and Ron is right in there with them with his own. That doesn't make him any more or less likely than anyone else to end up on the side of the bad guys.



Zoe’s dad - Apr 20, 2004 8:23 pm (#395 of 1957)

I have read in a couple of the posts where people stated the similarities to Ron and Wormtail. There is one BIG difference, however. Ron has courage in spades, where Peter was a coward at heart. Ron's courage, combined with his loyalty, makes him someone who is a perfect fried for Harry. Ron has the courage of his convictions where Peter did not.

Also, we do not know if James, Sirius, and Lupin ever teased Peter about is weaknesses. Harry has never teased Ron about anything like that. Harry could have made comments about Ron's familys lack of maoney when he is actually well off, instead he is envious of the family that Ron has and has told him so. Harry gives Ron his due all the time, even when Ron is made prefect instead of Harry.

Dan



Czarina - Apr 21, 2004 7:44 am (#396 of 1957)

Our opinion of Ron in OoP might be a bit biased as well, as we're observing along with Harry. Harry is jealous of Ron after the Quidditch final, for instance, because he didn't get a chance to play. Ron and Ginny are the heroes of the hour, while Harry has been relegated to the sidelines. Ron's boasting is perfectly normal -- Hermione probably barely noticed.

I don't think Ron was being arrogant at all. He was proud of himself, and also amazed. This is a boy who has long believed that he is unworthy next to his brothers and Harry. Now HE is getting the attention and he has proved to HIMSELF that he can succeed.



Molly Weasly Wannabe - Apr 22, 2004 6:59 am (#397 of 1957)

Oooooooooo......I just had a thought. Now this is going to be a "What if" type of post.

What if Vold is using Ron. We all know that wormtail(Scabbers)was Ron's rat for many years. He (Wormtail that is)knows just about everything there is to know about Ron. He knows how he is embarassed about not having money, how he pretty much takes a back seat to his brothers,how he wishes he could do something to prove himself and not just be "the little brother", ect.... Now, at the Quiddetch match that Ron won for Gryffindor, what if Vold had one of his followers (that we don't know is a follower)to put a spell on Ron to preform better and win the cup for their house. Since Ron won the cup, he is startig to get that "big head". In the next book(s) Ron will be approached by Vold to be on his side, promising him fame and fortune. Then Vold will reveal to him that because of him (Vold) is the reason why Ron won the Quiddetch cup for his house. This will show Ron that Vold does have the power to give him the world at his finger tips.

Like I said....it is just a "what if". Dang.........when will that new book be out? *grumbles*



Star Crossed - Apr 22, 2004 11:03 am (#398 of 1957)

Not to rain on your sunshine, but mostly Scabbers/Wormtail slept. Or so Ron says. But I'm sure Wormtail does know that Ron wants to prove himself. As do a lot of people.

I just can never see Ron go evil. I'd rather see Hermione turn into a Lavender clone.



Tomoé - Apr 22, 2004 11:25 am (#399 of 1957)

Did Wormtail sleep or did he fake to sleep?



Chris. - Apr 22, 2004 11:35 am (#400 of 1957)

He probably faked sleep most of the time, trying not to bring attention to himself. Was Scabbers 'sleepy' when Percy had him or was it just when Ron received him?

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Padfoot - Apr 22, 2004 11:38 am (#401 of 1957)

Tomoe, I would think both. After he first turned into a rat he was probably very alert to all that was going on around him. But after 12 years, he isn't as much. Plus, Wormtail was around Ron mostly the last few years. Not much to be learned about Voldy from him. And yet, Wormdtail is sneaky enough to fake sleep now and then to overhear a conversation.

Ok, now that I wrote that I realize, who would care or even notice if a rat was awake or asleep before starting a conversation?



Madame Librarian - Apr 22, 2004 12:00 pm (#402 of 1957)
Edited Apr 22, 2004 1:01 pm

When he first transformed we don't know exactly where he went. Probably hung out with a bunch of real sewer rats for a while (ick), but because of the circumstances he had to stay alert. He wasn't sure that Sirius would definitely be found guilty and put in prison. He wasn't sure that Order members weren't suspicious of his death. He had to be on the lookout for a safer place (the Weasleys--perfect!), and still keep his wits about him for information on the state of the WW and Voldie's possible whereabouts.

Then he's in a chaotic household with a bunch of boys--energetic, wild, likely to play with Scabbers a bit roughly, or forget about him altogether (well, not Percy, maybe). Given what the pet store guy said about the lifespan of rats in general, Wormtail was not surprisingly totally exhausted. He's highly strung, in a state of near constant anxiety by the time Ron takes him to Hogwarts, and then--Crookshanks shows up. That rat's a mess by now. Sleeps whenever he can, but it's an uneasy rest.

Ciao. Barb



Brandon Christopher - Apr 22, 2004 12:00 pm (#403 of 1957)

Anyways back to the topic of Ron...

I would like to point out something. The only two real valid arguments I've heard that support Ron as being a good friend or not betraying Harry I don't think can be taken into the same light that they could before. When Ron offered himself to the giant chess set he was 11, when he stood on his broken leg in front of a convicted felon he was 13. When he completely abandoned Harry out of jealousy he was 14, and now, when he is starting to develop an overswelled head he's 15. I don't notice any evidence of Ron becoming a better friend. In fact when you look at how he's changing as he's getting older if I were Harry I'd get as far away from him as I could... The comic relief in the story has become more of the weak link in the trio, when will it break?



Star Crossed - Apr 22, 2004 12:10 pm (#404 of 1957)

In comparison to Harry who at the age of eleven was sweet and adorable, and at the age of fifteen yelled at his best friends quite often? If I were Ron I'd get away from him as I could...but he stood loyal. I'm fourteen and I still get jealous of my friends. Doesn't mean I'd ever betray them. And Ron is more important than a comic relief.



Chris. - Apr 22, 2004 12:14 pm (#405 of 1957)

Star Crossed, I think Harry had a reason to be angry at Ron and Hermione. They didn't tell him anything.

There will always be something between the Trio but I don't think Harry will want them around in Book 6 as much.



Brandon Christopher - Apr 22, 2004 12:18 pm (#406 of 1957)

Yes Kingsley, Harry had much reason to be angry at Ron and Hermione, and a few other people as well. Wink Saying that his change is the same as Ron's isn't justified, if Ron had been through HALF of what Harry has been through then maybe, just maybe. But as of right now Ron is just becoming a spoiled little brat. And as I've pointed out before, now that Malfoy has fallen who will rise to be the next ferret - the weasel perhaps?



Chris. - Apr 22, 2004 12:22 pm (#407 of 1957)
Edited Apr 22, 2004 1:22 pm

I totally agree with you Brandon.

It didn't start in OoP, it started well before, sometime around the Yule Ball in GoF. Always wanting something and not letting people have fun, unless he's involved.



Brandon Christopher - Apr 22, 2004 12:26 pm (#408 of 1957)

Zactly, couldn't have put it better myself Kingsley.



Star Crossed - Apr 22, 2004 12:33 pm (#409 of 1957)

How did Harry have reason to be mad at Ron and Hermione? For trying to help him? For keeping a promise to Dumbledore? How on earth is that being fair? They were trying to help and he always gets hot-headed. Even when he was mad at someone else, he got mad at them.

And because Ron got mad at Krum for taking Hermione to the ball, that makes him going to join Voldemort? How? I have not seen any real proof that makes it seem as though Ron will become evil.



haymoni - Apr 22, 2004 12:36 pm (#410 of 1957)

No, No, No...I refuse to believe this about Ron. I am in total denial on this subject.

Ron understands what is at stake here. He nearly lost his father if not for Harry. He looked the Death Eaters in the eye (eyes?) at the MOM. He tells Harry at the end of Book 5 that they will get him out of there (Privet Drive) ASAP.

He is Harry's best friend, and his second - just like he was in Book 1.



Chris. - Apr 22, 2004 12:39 pm (#411 of 1957)

Harry had a right to know what happened. As he said himself in the book, he was the one who did everything. He saw Voldemort alone, not with Ron and Hermione.

I didn't say he would become Evil (Why the capital? ) just because Krum took Hermione to the Ball but it might 'help' towards it. He might fear that H and Hr will be too good for him. There was a quote in Star Wars which may come into use here.

Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you.-Yoda



Brandon Christopher - Apr 22, 2004 12:48 pm (#412 of 1957)

What Kingsley said, and hey StarCrosssed, read this whole thread. There are many good references, true most posts are from people who like Ron but there are some very good points above.

I didn't say he would turn evil (though it wouldn't surprise me.) But I do think he will at least be tricked by Voldemort or a deatheater. Face it, he's not the brihtest guy out there. Wink And greed and jealousy are powerful ways to turn a person, even a loyal friend.



Star Crossed - Apr 22, 2004 12:48 pm (#413 of 1957)
Edited by Apr 22, 2004 1:51 pm

Harry has a right to a lot of things. Ron has a right to have money. Hermione has a right to be treated fairly, no matter her blood. Life isn't right. Life isn't fair. You have to deal with it. Ron is just an ordinary kid. Yes, Harry has had many unfortunate things happen to him and he has become mature because of that. The normal kid is not like that. Most kids don't know what it is like to be Harry. Does this mean they still have to be up to his level?

EDIT: Yes, there are many things written in here with good qualities, but Ron is my favourite character and I will not stand for someone saying bad comments about him. Well, that's sort of harsh, but I love Ron, and I know he will not become evil or be tricked by Voldemort. Why would Voldemort even go after Ron? He would only go for Ron if he wanted to lure Harry.



dobbyiscool - Apr 22, 2004 12:52 pm (#414 of 1957)

I doubt that him fearing that H and Hr being too good for him is enough, Kingsley, but I love that quote😁! Ron could fear that he will lose Harry, and that fear could escalate to him being angry at and eventually hating Harry for being "the one who lived," and that could escalate in his suffering because of his love/hate for Harry. Actually, I just wanted to make the quote work with out him feeling inferior. After all, he was named prefect.



Chris. - Apr 22, 2004 12:53 pm (#415 of 1957)
Edited Apr 22, 2004 1:56 pm

Ron didn't deal with his life in GoF. When Harry got picked as a Triwizard Champion, he went in a bad mood, rather than accepting it and supporting Harry as a friend.

I agree, he did get to be Prefect but was it for the better? Ron might've went into one of his moods if Harry and Hermione got the Prefect badges.



Neville Longbottom - Apr 22, 2004 12:53 pm (#416 of 1957)

But he started to overcome his insecurities in book 5. Besides, Ron and Hermione didn't know all that much themselves, to tell Harry. They knew a bit more, namely that the Order exists and some of the members, but that's really nothing to tell in a letter. Had Harry read the DP properly, he would at least have been aware of the ministry's reaction, that was why Hermy always sent it to him.



Brandon Christopher - Apr 22, 2004 12:56 pm (#417 of 1957)

Methinks someone is in denial...

"...but I love Ron, and I know he will not become evil or be tricked by Voldemort. Why would Voldemort even go after Ron? He would only go for Ron if he wanted to lure Harry. "

You KNOW this StarCrossed? You have access to some information about the future books that no one else does? And as for the latter comments of yours, well that's exactly what we've been saying. Voldemort WOULD use Ron to lure Harry somewhere. In fact right now he looks to be the prime target for such an action. Anyone can be lured away, even Harry, but Ron is the most vulnerable one.



Chris. - Apr 22, 2004 12:58 pm (#418 of 1957)

Voldemort can offer Ron everything that he has dreamed about. Power.



Star Crossed - Apr 22, 2004 12:59 pm (#419 of 1957)

Maybe I am in denial, but I really doubt he will go evil, even if for the only fact she based him off her best friend.

I don't see how Voldemort could get Ron out of Hogwarts, but anything is possible.



Chris. - Apr 22, 2004 1:01 pm (#420 of 1957)

Yes, Ron was set on JKR's best friend, but maybe JKR and this friend fell out once, but then made up.

Ron could turn Evil for a while, but then find his true self again, and make up with Harry



Star Crossed - Apr 22, 2004 1:04 pm (#421 of 1957)

I still wanna know what's up with the captial e. I think Ron knows who he is. Maybe Ron may mess up. It's quite possible that he can do something horribly bad, but I don't see him ever working for Voldemort. Especially with Hermione, a muggle born, being his best friend. I am not going to deny the fact he may pull a Bagman and give some crucial information away to the wrong person by accident.



Chris. - Apr 22, 2004 1:08 pm (#422 of 1957)

The 'E' is just like the 'D' in Dark arts. It's Evil!

What if Hermione does something that really makes Ron mad? Maybe that holiday to Bulgaria? If a letter from Krum can make him that 'twitchy', a holiday to Krum might make him go off the rails.



Star Crossed - Apr 22, 2004 1:10 pm (#423 of 1957)

Enough to go Evil (Happy? Razz)? I see him as more throwing stuff. No wait...that's me. Hnn. He'd probably be like most of the guys I know and try to fight for Hermione. Which would probably get her seriously angry at him. What a fight that would be.

Down, plot bunny, down!



Brandon Christopher - Apr 22, 2004 1:21 pm (#424 of 1957)

Actually I see Ron as more of the "it's everyone else's fault but mine" kind of guy. He's already proven he's angry at everyone else because he has no money, he's jealous about it. We see him become angry at Harry and others who do have money and yet he does nothing to rectify this. Hermione going with Krum very well could send him over the edge, face it, he's not a stable guy.



Detail Seeker - Apr 22, 2004 1:21 pm (#425 of 1957)

Fanatic Ron bashing will help to discuss that topic as well as stating pure love for that character. So, we may very well leave these emotions out of this discussion.

Brandon, your points are not very convincing to me. In comparison to earlier discussions about this very topic, you have not added anything new. Good, you do not need to do it, just repeating your old arguments did help to give this thread some pepper.

To get to some of these points mentioned:

Rather harsh words are used: "Greed" for Ron just wanting to have unused things or .g. robes, that he likes instead of a used and ugly one - is that "greedy" ?

Wanting to step out of the shadows of his elder siblings, is natural, too. I do not live in the skin of an overshadowed younger sibling ( being the eldest in my family) but I have seen this around - that is just natural for a child of his age.

Being jealous and feeling to be lied at - that´s what he did - would account for some loss of trust. So, who is going to judge, that things did not look logic for him - his best friend betraying him by getting his name into the goblet and being chosen - and denying he did it, though he must have done it somehow. What a luck, that JKR did not write the books that plump, that the right and wrong is so easily discernable to the actors. with every better friendship, I had in my life, there were always phases of alienisation and of redifing the "terms of friendship" - that happens and mostly these were reasons to intensify friendship.

Do you really not understand, that Ron is a bit proud now about saving the Quidditch game and -cup ? I see no arrogance in it- just pride and a way of showing it, that may of course irritate, especially some, who have just passed a phase of life, where one is tempted to such behaviour.

Ron not the brightest ? Compared with most other boys from his year we know, he is well above average.

Ron and Harry could have reasons to stay away from each other -but they do not do it - that´s why they are friends.

So, please, tone down the discussion a bit



Molly Weasly Wannabe - Apr 22, 2004 1:23 pm (#426 of 1957)
Edited Apr 22, 2004 2:29 pm

The reason Vold would want to have something to do with Ron is because he knows he is the weakier of HHR.he will be the easiest one to influence. I would have to agree with Branond.....greed and jealousy are powerful ways to turn a person, even a loyal friend.



Star Crossed - Apr 22, 2004 1:28 pm (#427 of 1957)

Ron doesn't want 'it all'. And what does 'it all' mean? Power? He's not Percy. Ron wants to be known as Ron, not 'Another Weasley' (Darn you evil WB with that evil thing about Ron's sorting! HISS!). He doesn't want a lot of money, he just wants to fit in. Which may seem like a contradiction, but it's not. I'm his age, my friends are his age. We all want to fit in, but stick out. Ron's normal. That doesn't make him prone to be taken in by Voldemort.



Molly Weasly Wannabe - Apr 22, 2004 1:36 pm (#428 of 1957)
Edited Apr 22, 2004 2:37 pm

Ron is ashamed of his house, Ron is ashamed of his clothes, Ron is ashamed of his broom, Ron is ashamed of his school books/supplies, Ron is ashamed of his "ruddy old owl",

You can't say that Ron doesn't want a lot of money. You have to have money to buy all this stuff I told you he was "ashamed" about, it takes money to buy.



Chris. - Apr 22, 2004 1:36 pm (#429 of 1957)
Edited Apr 22, 2004 2:37 pm

I wonder if Percy bought that book, 'Prefects Who Gained Power'

When Percy left the Burrow, he may have confided in Ron and gave him the book, thinking Ron had a good chance to be a Prefect.

Maybe Ron took the book to heart?

PS. Molly, Ron isn't ashamed of his broom anymore, even though it's not as good as a Firebolt.



Brandon Christopher - Apr 22, 2004 1:37 pm (#430 of 1957)

Actually Detail I did add some new points, and I also expanded on my old ones as well. The new points were basically just more recent proof of what I had already said before. Wink And I have put my feelings aside, I do that when I argue points, when you let your emotions rule you in an argument you tend to not think clearly. I would hate to deprive all of you of any information about Ron's real characteristics just because I couldn't keep a calm head. Wink

I see that Ron is proud of himself, too much so in fact. He also, because he was never proud of himself before became even more arrogant than he should have. Like I said before, and yes I am repeating myself, sometimes you have to do that to emphasize a point. Repetition is a commonly used literary device DetailSeeker. Wink But anyways, Harry DID compare Ron's gloating with his father, I think that in itself is proof enough. If not just the way Ron acted after the match period. Describing every single save he made and every single thought that went through his head, you don't think that's going a bit overboard? I don't know what you guys call that where you come from but around here that's called being egotistical and a show off. Wink



Molly Weasly Wannabe - Apr 22, 2004 1:41 pm (#431 of 1957)

He might not be "ashamed" of his newer broom........but to me it comes across as he still isn't completely satisfied that he doesn't have a brand spakin new broom. He comes across as the type of person who is never satisifed with what he has, espically if someone has something bigger and better than he does. Seems to me that he is the type of teenager who would grow up and want to always keep up with the Jone's. You know....kind of like Vernon. (wants to keep up with everyone else around him)



Star Crossed - Apr 22, 2004 1:42 pm (#432 of 1957)
Edited by Apr 22, 2004 2:43 pm

Or as the French say once it's translated back into English: 'Look at me!' Don't ask.

Can you really blame Ron for showing off? He's not used to being able to do it. In five books, he gloated twice. Give the boy a chance. He likes being singled out.

So maybe he is ashamed of the things he owns. That comes with life. Now that everyone except Ginny and Ron are out of the house, however, they will have more money. I think the broomstick is already the first thing. He got a new broom, new robes, he's on his way.

EDIT: Not proud of his broom?! He was estatic when he got it! He never said "Well, I'll force mum to get me a Firebolt." He went for a cheaper broom. He was completely blissful when he got it. He loved it.



Brandon Christopher - Apr 22, 2004 1:43 pm (#433 of 1957)

Oh very good point Melissa, I like that point a lot. Ron struck me that way also in Gof and OotP.



dobbyiscool - Apr 22, 2004 2:13 pm (#434 of 1957)

I agree, with only two kids to feed and clothe, it will be much easier then the years pervious. Espicially in CoS, when they had Ron, Fred, George, Percy, and Ginny, and had to by a compleate set of Lockheart's books for them.



megfox - Apr 22, 2004 2:23 pm (#435 of 1957)

Another thing, how would Voldemort know that Ron is the "weaker" of the three (HHR)?

And I think, having coached teenagers, that it is quite normal for an athlete who is fairly inexperienced to be very exicted and relive every detail about a game winning play, several times, to as many people as they can get to listen. I can't tell you how many times I've heard about one of my youngest players' game- and championship-winning homerun!

I think that Ron is acting like a normal teenager, and I don't think that this means he will turn on Harry. Just think of how terrified he is everytime Hermione just says "Voldemort". He grew up in a very anti-Voldemort household, and he is not likely to switch that off very easily.



Molly Weasly Wannabe - Apr 22, 2004 2:42 pm (#436 of 1957)
Edited Apr 22, 2004 3:44 pm

Vold knows this about Ron from Wormtail. Wormtail was able to see how Ron acted for many years. (I think he was pretending sleeping half the time, just so Ron and the rest of his brothers would leave him alone.) He got to observe what Ron wanted and desired.So Vold asked him (wormtail) what could he do to get to Harry? Or better yet...WHO could he use to get to Harry? Who would be the most likely to betray Harry for something they desired in return.



megfox - Apr 22, 2004 2:46 pm (#437 of 1957)

But according to the logic used in previous posts, Ron has been getting worse as a friend. I don't think there are any instances in the first three books in which we see Ron "betray" (and I use that term very, very lightly) Harry. the examples given were for the 4th and 5th books, when Scabbers had returned to Voldemort as Wormtail. So how would he know? I also think that the issue with Ron's sheer terror at the mention of the Dork Lard is being highly overlooked.



Molly Weasly Wannabe - Apr 22, 2004 2:54 pm (#438 of 1957)
Edited Apr 22, 2004 3:59 pm

Even the deatheaters act in terror when Harry says "Voldemort". Even wormtail (before he went to server Voldemort) acted in terror when someone mentioned the name Voldemort.....but that didn't stop him from serving him in the end.



Star Crossed - Apr 22, 2004 2:57 pm (#439 of 1957)

When did Ron betray Harry in OP?



Brandon Christopher - Apr 22, 2004 2:58 pm (#440 of 1957)
Edited by S.E. Jones Apr 22, 2004 11:07 pm

Merriam Webster defines betrayal as: "to fail or desert especially in time of need." Now if you don't call Ron's desertion in GoF betrayal then I don't know what your "light" definition of betrayal is... THAT, is looking at the facts and not letting emtion ride an argument. Wink Ron left Harry, or deserted him, when he needed him the most. I'm not letting my emotions or views of Ron get in the way I'm simply stating a fact. Look above and tell me that Ron didn't abandon Harry.



Star Crossed - Apr 22, 2004 3:01 pm (#441 of 1957)

# looks above at ceiling* Ron didn't abandon Harry.

Seriously though. He didn't. Okay, yeah, he didn't believe him. Is that betrayal? Ron was the one who admitted he was wrong. He apologized first. What did Harry do? Throw a badge at him.



Brandon Christopher - Apr 22, 2004 3:05 pm (#442 of 1957)

Dude... Ron deserted Harry, completely abandoned him - can you seriously not see that? Let me spell it out to you b-e-t-r-a-y-a-l is defined by d-e-s-e-r-t-i-o-n... Can't really make it more clear than that, well if you haven't read the books then maybe I could...



megfox - Apr 22, 2004 3:06 pm (#443 of 1957)
Edited Apr 22, 2004 4:06 pm

There was a definite joint responsibility of the guilt for the "desertion" in GoF.

And please don't accuse me of being emotional over this, I am only unconvinced by your argument. I don't see any real proof that Ron will go against everything he has ever learned, ever been told, ever said himself, and ever shown, done, said to his best friend (minus a few months in GoF when they weren't speaking because of teenage hormones leading to temper tantrums) because the person whom he despises and fears the most in the entire world is offering him things he obviously is quite capable of getting himself.

Brandon Christopher, please do not insult people.



Star Crossed - Apr 22, 2004 3:06 pm (#444 of 1957)

Actually, I have read the books. I've read this thread. We've read the same books. We've read the same thread. I'm just expressing my opinion, and you yours. It's no reason to get snippy. If we continue this, we'll just have to agree to disagree, and go our seperate ways.



timrew - Apr 22, 2004 3:22 pm (#445 of 1957)

Maybe we should start a new thread, 'The Evil Weasley Family'.

Percy is well on the way; Ron is following suit. Who knows where Ginny will end up, bat-bogey hexing everything in sight. Fred and George, with their knowledge of explosives and swamp-making, are ripe for recruiting into the Death Eaters.

Charlie already deals with 'evil' dragons, so I can well see him leading the DEs into battle mounted on dragons. Bill is ripe to do some 'money-laundering' for the DEs, along with his 'evil' Veela mate, Fleur Delacourt......

And Molly and Arthur, after years of penury and penny-pinching, are all set to rebel against the MOM and become spies for Voldemort!

Have I forgotten anybody?



Star Crossed - Apr 22, 2004 3:25 pm (#446 of 1957)

Honestly, timrew. You're so mean. You forgot about the possibly-muggle accountant! I'm sure he feels very unwanted. Wink



timrew - Apr 22, 2004 3:28 pm (#447 of 1957)

The Muggle accountant would not be welcome into the DEs, so he would remain the only good guy in a whole bunch of Evil Weasley Purebloods!



Star Crossed - Apr 22, 2004 3:41 pm (#448 of 1957)

He could be very welcome! He'd be the one who hacked into everyone's account and caused a stock crash. After that, then he'd be unwelcome.



Neville Longbottom - Apr 22, 2004 3:44 pm (#449 of 1957)

During the whole discussion, nobody mentioned the scene in the chapter "Percy And Padfoot", where Ron throws the letter away. I think this clearly shows, where his true loyalities are. Of course Ron isn't perfect, nobody is, but that doesn't make him a villain. He is just a teenage guy with flaws but also with many good sides. Other characters sent their enemy to a werewolf at Ron's age, and they didn't turn out evil.

Besides, I always thought Harry (and Ron) not speaking with Hermione because of a broomstick and a rat was equally mean. They are just kids and allowed to make some mistakes.



Star Crossed - Apr 22, 2004 3:49 pm (#450 of 1957)

Neville, it was a FIREBOLT! That excuses everything!

I swear I'm kidding. I love the point you made about the letter. Never even thought about that, but it is a good point. Smart idea. I think the biggest sign of loyalty was in PoA where Ron stood on a broken leg and said to Sirius that if he wanted to kill Harry, he would have to kill him and Hermione first. That shows dead loyalty.
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Brandon Christopher - Apr 22, 2004 4:03 pm (#451 of 1957)

Points to earlier statement and walks off...



Maollelujah - Apr 22, 2004 4:21 pm (#452 of 1957)

Maybe we should start a new thread, 'The Evil Weasley Family'.

Percy is well on the way; Ron is following suit. Who knows where Ginny will end up, bat-bogey hexing everything in sight. Fred and George, with their knowledge of explosives and swamp-making, are ripe for recruiting into the Death Eaters.

Charlie already deals with 'evil' dragons, so I can well see him leading the DEs into battle mounted on dragons. Bill is ripe to do some 'money-laundering' for the DEs, along with his 'evil' Veela mate, Fleur Delacourt......

And Molly and Arthur, after years of penury and penny-pinching, are all set to rebel against the MOM and become spies for Voldemort!

Have I forgotten anybody?

I agree 100%. All bow down to the Evil Weasleys!!!

I can only see Ron doing something to harm Harry and that is if he is Imperio'd into doing it. I don't think he will act on Voldie's offer of 'everything.' Most of the things that are happening between Ron and Harry are rather natural, the jealousy, the small fights, etc...



Bittersweet - Apr 22, 2004 5:45 pm (#453 of 1957)
Edited Apr 22, 2004 6:48 pm

If Ron is so concerned about money, rather than just trying to fit in, why wasn't he put in the House where the others are put who are heavily into betrayal, cowardice, purebloods, and money? Why didn't the Sorting Hat put him in Slytherin? He could have cozied up to Malfoy, become his third goon, and maybe Lucius could have given him some kind of well paying goon job when he's out of Hogwarts.

If all Ron wants is money and prestige, then it seems to me he's hanging out with all the wrong people. Harry couldn't possibly have enough money to attract Ron if that were true; he wouldn't be in Gryffindor at all (though I admit, of course, that Percy is a twit). Do you think he'd be so crazy about Hermione if what he wants is to be rich and prestigious? She's a mudblood, and her parents are dentists.

Percy isn't out for money, though, I think. Percy is a perfectly straight arrow who is full of himself, (Head Boy, and all)and thinks he's better than anyone else in his family.

I digress. I agree with those of you who think we should start the Evil Weasley Thread. What would be great is that I wouldn't have to read it!

I have worked in secondary education for 26 years, both as a teacher and counselor, and I will tell you that it's rare, if not impossible, for close friends to go through adolescence without some feelings of resentment and cross words. Spending some time not speaking to each other is also very common. In the atmosphere at Hogwarts, where life and death are on the line on a regular basis, it seems to me that normal adolescent angst would be heightened. As a matter of fact, I'm very surprised that Harry and Ron have never punched each other in the nose!

I think that Ron is a true and loyal friend who makes stupid mistakes. Harry makes just as many stupid mistakes, remember. Hermione has practically a full-time job keeping the peace between these two very emotionally dense boys. No offense meant guys, but adolescent boys have a big tendency to be "emotionally dense." (You'll note the use of the highly technical and professional term.)

I spent some elementary school years, a thousand years ago, reading Nancy Drew books. Nancy was extraordinary, and her two best friends were completely loyal, true blue, never wanted to be the famous one, blah, blah, and they were completely boring! JKR has written some very life like characters (except for the magical powers part, of course) because they are more interesting than best friend cardboard cut-outs. Note what we've been talking about for 453 posts.

Sorry to have gone on so long. I don't post often, but when I do, I can't seem to stop.



Dumbly-dorr - Apr 22, 2004 6:46 pm (#454 of 1957)
Edited Apr 22, 2004 7:53 pm

I agree with Detail Seeker, Meg. L, and Timrew.

Firstly, Detail Seeker, who was truly the 'unemotional, looking at facts' perspective finder, stated his case very well. Kudos to you Detail Seeker, you always have an analytical viewpoint, detail oriented (details must be your thing, maybe you should think about a nickname that would convey that like, oh, I don't know...Detail Seeker or something similar). I've seen how you keep JKR's sense of what a character's character is really all about.

Next, Meg. L, people should never be snide or insult others feelings or intellegence. An opinion is just that, an opinion. I joined this forum for it's light-hearted friendly atmosphere and have been somewhat disappointed in some of the less-than-kind comments made in the last dozens of posts. We all need to follow the Lexicon guidelines to play nice.

Timrew, you're the best. If anyone wants to know the underlying sentiment of the Lexicon, all they need to do is look for your posts. Thanks.

Every speculation on this forum is exactly that: speculation. JKR is a master writer who understands the human character she writes about. She has masterfully written from an eleven-year-old perspective to a fifteen-year-old perspective with amazing accuracy. If anyone doubts this, just be around adolescence for a day.

I've seen the term 'red herring' on the Forum and think I understand it to mean something to mislead us, and so we don't know what her true intentions are concerning Ron.

So rather than stating an opinion as 'fact' please remember it is just an opinion, and we're all entitled to our own, no one has to be 'right', and on this forum, no one can be right. Face it, the only one who knows for sure is JKR.

Now, excuse me while I get out my pocket sneak-o-scope and put it on my nightstand in case the Evil Weasley Family comes to imperio me in my sleep.

EDIT: Bittersweet and I were posting at the same time. Here, here Bittersweet , you're absolutely right, especially about the highly technical and professional terms.



Denise P. - Apr 22, 2004 7:02 pm (#455 of 1957)
Edited Apr 22, 2004 8:05 pm

It is a rare day when not one, not two but three Hosts have to come onto a thread to say something about the "tone" of the discussion.

Everyone on this forum has the right to express their opinion about subjects. It is not possible to always accurately judge how the written word was actually meant to be taken so we, as the reader, assigns the "tone" to it that we think it was written in.

Those who argue "for" Ron are just as passionate as those "against" Ron.

Feel free to discuss, diss, slam, rip, defend and wave Ron's flag, just don't do it to other members of this Forum. When a Host asks that the "tone" be taken down a notch or two, please do so. If you are not sure if someone is a Host, ask. There is also a thread that lists all the Lexicon Forum Staff if you are unsure if someone is a Host or not.

Please, play nicely, no pointing fingers and keep to the topic at hand...which is Ron Weasley.

Now, how about those Chudley Cannons?



I Am Used Vlad - Apr 22, 2004 7:12 pm (#456 of 1957)

Here's a quote from Ron, from the Fight and Flight chapter of OotP.

"Couple of Stunners, a Disarming Charm, Neville brought off a really nice little Impediment Jinx," said Ron airily, now handing back Hermione's wand too. "But Ginny was best, she got Malfoy-Bat-Bogey Hex-it was superb, his whole face was covered in the great flapping things." OotP, p.760 American

Here is Ron complimenting Neville, who has always been something of a failure, and his little sister, who's abilities he certainly would not want to play up if he was worried about how others perceived him. Shortly after this statement, Ron once again risks his life helping Harry.

If people want to make a case against Ron, they better come up with more that a little bit of jealously in GoF and a bit of bragging in OotP.



A-is-for-Amy - Apr 22, 2004 7:25 pm (#457 of 1957)
Edited Apr 22, 2004 8:28 pm

I must say that after reading the past few dozen posts, I can see where both sides of this argument are coming from, but I'm afraid that I must pitch my flag firmly in the "Ron is a good and faithful friend" camp. I think that the main reason I feel this way is because friendship and loyalty are a main theme of the series. We've already seen a major betrayal in Wormtail, and JKR is a clever and briallant writer who doesn't have to make a paralell "present" character for every "past" one.

Ron has proven (in my mind) his friendship more times than he has disproven it. Sure he had a tantrum of major proportions in GoF... who doesn't sometimes believe they're right about something and insist on standing their ground, only to find out (or realize) later that they'd been wrong (or stupid)? Ron showed his true colors not by starting the fight, but by being brave enough to end it and admit he was wrong. I think that Ron is the one member of the trio that best represents how someone that age actually acts. I don't think he's only comic relief, or that he's 'the dumb one' - I think that he's the heart of their little group, and I for one, like him.



Molly Weasly Wannabe - Apr 22, 2004 7:37 pm (#458 of 1957)

I see some people saying if Ron was to be out for the "fame and fortune" why did the sorting hat put him in Gryfindor and not Slytherian. Well......wasn't Wormtail not in Slytherian?

This is just a theory that I have thought about for quiet sometime. I hope it's not true that Harry's best friends "betrays" him. That would devistate Harry......but ya never know.



Zoe’s dad - Apr 22, 2004 10:13 pm (#459 of 1957)

I think one scene that definately shows how much Ron is cares about Harry is when Ron is made Prefect. He is worried about how Harry feels about that. At a time when he should be proud of an accoplishment, he seem to be more concerned that Harry would feel slighted, which he does.

I can really find no fault with the way Ron behaved. (Side note: We are talking about this like these are real people instead of some characters in a book, does that mean we are too obsessed?) Have been a teenage boy, granted that was 23 years ago, I can fully understand where Ron is coming from. I had friends that alway had more money, got more attention, were more popular (especially with the young ladies) and I was sometimes envious of them, but I was still loyal to them as a friend. This is what Ron is going through. It is called growing pains.

Ron is really starting to come into his own. To give an example, when he is bragging about winning the match, this is normal, he still had the adrenaline rushing through his system. He was proud of what he had done. I can tell you about every second of every match I had in the first wrestling tournament I won, and that was 21 years ago. I don't bragg about it anymore, but I did for 2 weeks after it happened. I told everyone is sight about it. Give the guy his due, and he will soon find something else to focus on.

Oh well, I will stop rambling now.

Dan



S.E. Jones - Apr 22, 2004 10:49 pm (#460 of 1957)
Edited Apr 23, 2004 12:44 am

Well, the only arguments I've seen stated against Ron, that is cannon references, are the fight in GoF and his pride after winning the Cup where he resembled James in OotP.

To the first argument, I'll restate something I said earlier, he's been overshadowed by Harry, as he has by his brothers, since he first met him but it didn't erupt into any perceivable amount of jealousy (though I still think it had more to do with Ron feeling betrayed at being left out of the "joke" of getting his name put into the Goblet with Harry's) until GoF. However, when he first perceives that Harry is in actual physical danger, he is upset by it and hurries to apologize and show his support for Harry from that point on. There even seems to be a few times during the argument (which is what it was, an argument between friends) in which it would seem that Ron wants to talk to Harry such as when he walks in on Harry talking to Sirius in the fireplace (which he did because he was curious, or worried, where Harry was at in the middle of the night) and Harry hits him with the badge, he doesn't get mad but instead looks discomforted, like he is upset with himself or the situation.

To the second argument and him resembling James in his arrogance, I offer some quotes:
...he concluded modestly, sweeping his hair back quite unnecessarily so that it looked interestingly windswept and glancing around to see whether the people nearest to them -- a bunch of gossiping third-year Hufflepuffs -- had heard him.

The truth was that Ron had just reminded Harry forcibly of another Gryffindor Quidditch player who had once sat rumpling his hair under this very tree.

"But you saw her chuck her broom away when she got back to the ground, didn't you?"
"Well, actually...no, Ron," said Hermione.... "As a matter of fact, the only bit of the match Harry and I saw was Davies's first goal."
Ron's carefully ruffled hair seemed to wilt with disappointment.
(OotP, ch21, pg704, US)

You'll notice that Ron's hair ruffling and pride at winning the Cup aren't mentioned much, if at all, throughout the rest of the book. Yes, he ruffles his hair like James did, but it deflates when he finds that his two best friends missed his one big moment of fame. I think his response, both the pride in his accomplishment and the disappointment that his friends weren't there to share it with him, is quite understandable something we've all experienced at one time or another in our lives.

As to Ron being ashamed of his clothes or greedy, I disagree. Speaking from personal experience, I know what it is like to get hand-me-downs that are 10 years out of date and be harassed at school because of it. Ron just wants something of his own. There is a difference, though, in wanting something of one's own and wanting too much of it (this is greed).

As to Ron wanting power, I have to disagree here too. We haven't seen Ron thirsting after power or abusing his position as prefect the way Percy did. What we did see, however, was his want (via the Mirror or Erised) to be able to shine on his own, for his own accomplishments, to get recognition. He's getting that now, without Voldemort, so I can't see that as being something Voldemort could use against him. He was made a prefect, got onto the Quidditch team, and played a mean game of Quidditch in the last match (I believe he only let Davies's first goal in, not any others) which allowed them to win the Cup and made him and Ginny (who caught the Snitch; which is something else he bragged about) the heroes of the hour. And he did the last thing listed there without Harry even being on the team, so he can definitely say it was him and not his famous friend.... So why would he need Voldemort? I just don't see it....

Edit: Wow, that was a long post! Whew... Excellent post, Dan. You posted while I was writing my novella. Wink To add to your post, the point at which Ron is bragging is the day after, not even two weeks, so yeah, the adrenaline was definitely still pumpin



Zoe’s dad - Apr 23, 2004 1:41 am (#461 of 1957)

You and I seem to be thinking alike on this topic, S. E.. I like the way you sum up Ron and his not thirsting for power. I think, al in all, JKR has done a very good job of portraying his character as accurate of a 15 year old boy as could have been possible.

Later,

Dan



Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Apr 23, 2004 5:19 am (#462 of 1957)

What a heated topic! I stand by my earlier posts in regards to Ron but thought I'd throw this out: While JKR has everyone in a dither trying to discern Ron's ultimate fate, watch her pull the rug out from everyone and have Hermione be the one who betrays the trio (knowingly or unknowingly).



Weeny Owl - Apr 23, 2004 10:06 am (#463 of 1957)

After what Ron has gone through from Ferret Breath and the "Weasley Is Our King" nonsense, him wanting to discuss every play, every save, and every thought in his head when he finally was successful seems quite the norm.

I'm around guys who play basketball on weekends, and they're adults, but they do the same thing as far as talking about every single time the ball bounced.Ron's reaction doesn't seem at all odd to me after listening to these adult guys dissect each second of a pick-up game.

I think it's a positive thing that Harry thought of James when looking at Ron. We know James was a jerk in his fifth year, but as Lupin and Sirius said, he finally got over himself and became the man Lily loved. If the comparisons between James and Ron are on target, then Ron is going to grow up himself.

I don't feel that Ron betrayed Harry in GoF. Ron felt betrayed because he thought Harry had put his own name in the goblet and was lying about it. Basically, they kissed and made up after Ron realized the truth and how serious the situation really was. Ron also allowed Harry to stun him repeatedly while practing for the third task.

People of all ages disagree, argue, and say hurtful things to their friends or family. Right now, my Mom is going through some difficult health problems, and last night she lashed out at me. She told me this morning that I was the one person she SHOULDN'T have been harsh with. I told her that I understood her frustration and that it was fine. If my mother can be nasty to me and everything works out, then why can't Ron (or Harry or Hermione or anyone else) have an occasional problem? Even the best of friends won't always agree.

What Sarah said in her "novella" is an eloquent statement of how I see Ron. She hit all the pertinent points much better than I could, and as she says, "So why would he need Voldemort? I just don't see it...." I agree completely, Sarah.



timrew - Apr 23, 2004 3:34 pm (#464 of 1957)

I apologise to the moderators, and to anyone who thought my post about starting an 'Evil Weasley' thread was serious. It was firmly tongue in cheek.

The only Weasley member I seriously consider becoming evil is Percy; and there again, I don't think he will become that evil!

I felt the discussion was becoming a bit 'overheated', and decided to calm it down a bit. I think I was about 50% successful, which is to say, not successful at all!



rambkowalczyk - Apr 23, 2004 4:58 pm (#465 of 1957)

I for one had no problem figuring out that Timrew was trying to inject humor with the evil Weasley family thread. I think there is great potential that Ron could betray Harry. Not out of greed nor maliciousness but by being out maneuvered by Voldemort or one of the Death Eaters. Remember Harry almost gave the prophecy to Malfoy when Neville was threatened with the crucio curse. Ron could easily be tricked into doing something to possibly hurt Harry if the alternative was to definately hurt someone else.



Catherine - Apr 23, 2004 5:23 pm (#466 of 1957)
Edited by Denise P. Apr 23, 2004 9:12 pm

Ditto to the thought that Timrew was adding humor, not "evilness" to the thread.

No Bludgers in the back, please! I post here because it is civil and respectful.

About Ron: I would agree with all who say that he is a loyal friend. He longs to be loved and appreciated for himself, not as a Weasley child, but being a Weasley is one of his strengths that he doesn't appreciate just yet. Let's not forget his willingness to sacrifice himself in SS for Harry.

Cheers,

Catherine



Weeny Owl - Apr 23, 2004 6:20 pm (#467 of 1957)

I knew you were kidding, tim; your sense of humor is one of the many things I love about this forum.

ramb: I agree with you that Ron (or any other character, for that matter) could be tricked by Voldie or one of the Death Eaters. One of Voldie's standard operating procedures seems to be to create mistrust and confusion, and for any teen (and most adults) to be a victim of that is entirely believable.



Devika - Apr 24, 2004 10:07 am (#468 of 1957)

I agree that of all the people close to Harry Ron is the most likely to be manipulated and tricked into betraying Harry unintentionally. Hermione is much too shrewd to fall for something like that. Her sixth sense works really well. Ron on the other hand is someone who tends to go for first impressions. This makes it more likely that he will betray Harry if someone will. But if JKR is indeed trying to show him maturing, then we may just see his coming of age in a scene where he manages to see through such a temptation.



Detail Seeker - Apr 27, 2004 8:52 am (#469 of 1957)

Tim I do not think, that Denise´s comment was referring to you - in contrary, I think, your comment was able to take away some heat from the discussion.



Madame Librarian - Apr 27, 2004 10:41 am (#470 of 1957)

Devika, I must differ on whether Hermione would be vulnerable to being manipulated. She is no more savvy than Ron, I think. She fell for Lockhart (uncharacteristically so, I felt), didn't imagine that Millicent's robes might have cat hairs on them, didn't think Firenze was qualified ("er...horse"), thought Trelawney was a total fraud (well, so did everyone until....), and finally, is going about this S.P.E.W. thing in an annoyingly blunt and insulting way (even though she thinks otherwise). She is very smart but sometimes naive. All the kids are pretty naive in a way--they're kids. They are all apt to be drawn into a set-up with dire consequences.

Ciao. Barb



Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - Apr 27, 2004 1:16 pm (#471 of 1957)

Loved your post Barb. I'm always ranting in the chat room that Ron is given short shrift while Hermione is given more than her due. I like and admire them both but they both, along with Harry, have their weaknesses. Although I mentioned it slightly tongue-in-cheek in a previous post, I don't think it's unreasonable for Hermione to be tricked. She has a tendency to do what she thinks best for the group without getting the buy-in from Ron and Harry (I'm thinking of The Midnight Duel, The Firebolt, The Hogshead Meeting, just for a few examples). If convinced that she is doing something to help everyone else, she could be hoodwinked. And that's all I'll say about her since this is the Ron thread.

Back to Ron (I should say something here about him so I don't get in trouble), his ultimate success at Quidditch and his being made a Prefect may give him the slight push he needs to become his own person. These three kids have some serious maturing to do as the war commences. And I think they're all aware of that.



Bittersweet- Apr 27, 2004 2:30 pm (#472 of 1957)

About the houses that various people are in (as in my earlier post, "If Ron is so bad, why isn't he in Slytherin?" We do not know what houses James, Remus, Serius, and Peter were in. That has been discussed at some length elsewhere, and because we don't know this, Peter's "not being in Slytherin" can't be compared to Ron, because we know Ron's not in Slytherin.

If any of this makes any sense.



Chris. - Apr 27, 2004 3:09 pm (#473 of 1957)

Bittersweet , actually we do know what house the Marauders were in, Gryffindor, of course.

JKR interview: March 2004

Sirius Riddle: What houses were Sirius Black, Remus Lupin, James Potter and Remus Lupin in? Everyone tells me they were all Gryffindor, but I won't believe it unless I hear it from Ms. Rowling herself!

JK Rowling says: This is JK herself saying that they were indeed in Gryffindor!

'Sirius Riddle' made a mistake of course, by saying Lupin twice, but I think JKR read it as the four of them.



Molly Weasly Wannabe - Apr 27, 2004 6:37 pm (#474 of 1957)

I honestly don't think James would of associated with anyone from Slytherin........yet be friends with a Slytherin.



Chris. - Apr 27, 2004 6:40 pm (#475 of 1957)
Edited Apr 27, 2004 7:40 pm

No he wouldn't have.

After all, his best friend's parent were Slytherin mad, and look what they put Sirius through and probably, it was commonly known that some Slytherin parents were DEs so he wouldn't want to be mates with them.



Bittersweet - Apr 28, 2004 3:50 pm (#476 of 1957)

I concede! I hadn't read the JKR interview where she said they were in Gryffindor. I do remember, though it was undoubtedly before the interview, a long discussion on this thread about the fact that JKR never mentions the Marauders' house. I still don't get why she never mentions it, if it is Gryffindor. I don't doubt what she said, cause after all...it's JKR.

Still, hard to believe the Sorting Hat chose Peter Pettigrew for Gryffindor as he's a sleazeball coward. Hmmmmmmm.



Star Crossed - Apr 28, 2004 5:27 pm (#477 of 1957)

I'm sorry, I just don't see Peter Pettigrew as a sleazeball coward. Am I proud to say he lied and betrayed his friends? No. But not everyone in the world would say "Kill me. You're not getting anything out of me." That's a hard thing to do.

But we're getting off topic.



S.E. Jones - Apr 28, 2004 8:57 pm (#478 of 1957)

Um, this is the Ron thread, not the Peter Pettigrew thread. Perhaps further discussion of Pete's sleezeballness should be continued there....



tracie1976 - May 5, 2004 12:31 pm (#479 of 1957)
Edited May 5, 2004 1:31 pm

I did a search for this but found nothing so just yell if this has been said

I've noticed that Ron's new wand is somewhat similar to Cedric's and Lily's wand. Ron's new wand: willow, 14", unicorn tail hair

Now according to The Lexicon Lily Potter: willow, 10 1/4", swishy and Cedric Diggory: pleasantly springy, 12 1/4", single unicorn hair

Even though we know that Ron's wand, Lily's wand, and Cedric's wand are not exactly the same, could the similarity between these wands foreshadow Ron's death?



S.E. Jones - May 5, 2004 1:29 pm (#480 of 1957)

How? Can you elaborate?



A-is-for-Amy - May 5, 2004 1:43 pm (#481 of 1957)

I'm guessing tracie means that since Ron has a similar wand, and the only other two to have a wand like his are dead, that means that he is slated to die as well.

I think I disagree on this observations for the simple fact that Ollivander only uses three different types of wand cores, so it's too broad a base for that type of foreshadowing. It IS a clever observation though, and I'm willing to be convinced if there are any more arguments about it.



Star Crossed - May 5, 2004 1:44 pm (#482 of 1957)
Edited by May 5, 2004 2:46 pm

Lily has willow, Cedric has unicorn tail, Ron has both of these in his wand. Both Lily and Cedric have died. I think tracie is trying to question whether this foreshadow's Ron's death.

If this is the point, this has been brought up, but I don't really think it means anything. While some of my forum friends may call ignorant (Won't say any names. Razz), I just don't take this as evidence Ron will die.

EDIT: Really need to submit faster. Razz



S.E. Jones - May 5, 2004 1:47 pm (#483 of 1957)

Well, didn't Charlie also have a wand with a unicorn hair in it? That's the wand Ron got as a hand-me down. I'm assuming, based on the fact that the core didn't change between Ron's first and second wand, that Charlie's current wand also has a unicorn hair in it and he's still alive. Also, we don't know what kind of wood Diggory's was made from, do we? The willow could be pointed to something else... Maybe Ron's going to get better at Charms?



Lupin is Lupin. Natch. - May 5, 2004 1:51 pm (#484 of 1957)
Edited May 5, 2004 2:52 pm

Well, there's something for the 'Is Ron Dumbledore thread?'. If he became really good at charms it could be used as an argument since DD placed the charm on baby Harry.

Ah, I don't really believe that but I saw an opening and I took it : )



Star Crossed - May 5, 2004 1:53 pm (#485 of 1957)

One thing to crash that theory, what about his brothers and sister? Who is Aberforth? But that's off topic.

I hope Ron does get better at charms. Harry has DADA, Hermione has...everything, Ron needs a subject to be good in. And I really don't see it being Potions. Wink



tracie1976 - May 5, 2004 2:03 pm (#486 of 1957)
Edited May 5, 2004 3:03 pm

Sorry should have put this in the post I brought up the wand thing too......but anyways....in SS on page 253 American version

Ronan didn't answer immediately. He stared unblinkingly upward, then sighed again.

"Always the innocent are the first victims," he said....

Now this part of the conversation takes place when they are all in the Forbidden Forest searching for the hurt unicorn and Hagrid asks Ronan if he saw anything strange around in the forest. Ron having a unicorn hair in his wand could indicate this especially since Cedric died and had the unicorn hair in his wand also.



Star Crossed - May 5, 2004 2:09 pm (#487 of 1957)

I'm sort of taking a Narnia look on this. Because I'm awful at names, I can't tell you the name, but there was this guy who just heard the story of Narnia from the four kids in the second book, and he just said, "I wouldn't go back to the wardrobe and looking for it. It won't be in the same place twice." Or something like that. But what I mean is, yes, that was foreshadowing for Cedric. But now 'innocent' can be taken another way with Sirius. He was innocent of the charges against him, and he was one of the first victims killed.

So innocent can be taken differently, and just because Ron has the same hair as Cedric did, don't think he will die for that reason.



Catherine - May 5, 2004 2:13 pm (#488 of 1957)

Star Crossed, You are talking about the Professor who shelters the Pevensie children during the war. I don't think we know his name, but, interestingly enough, he is a professor!



Tomoé - May 5, 2004 2:14 pm (#489 of 1957)

I think there a mention that unicorn hair were getting out of Charlie's old wand, in the PS Hogwarts Express scene. Can anyone check?



Star Crossed - May 5, 2004 2:15 pm (#490 of 1957)

I'd look it up, but I'm only borrowing my friends books, and I returned it a while ago. But maybe we never did learn his name. Maybe he'll be the sixth year professor. I can just hear Dumbledore now, "I would like to welcome our new Defense Against the Dark Arts Professor, Professor."



Padfoot - May 5, 2004 2:16 pm (#491 of 1957)

That character appears later in the series. I won't say who, because that would ruin it for you. But he does get a name, other than just professor.

I think it's just coincidence that Ron has a similar wand to Cedric and Lilly.



Catherine - May 5, 2004 2:16 pm (#492 of 1957)

From page 105, Scholastic:

"unicorn hair's nearly poking out."

Ron is about to attempt to turn Scabbers yellow.



Star Crossed - May 5, 2004 2:18 pm (#493 of 1957)

Aw darn. There goes my theory. Wink But thank you for not ruining it. I only just finished the third. Bleh.

Yes, because if Ollivander only used a few products in his wands, lots and lots of people would die just because they have unicorn in their wands. I think I would sue him.



Tomoé - May 5, 2004 2:18 pm (#494 of 1957)

Darn, you are quick!

So Charlie too had unicorn hair, will he die too?



Verbina - May 6, 2004 7:22 am (#495 of 1957)

I have a question. I have been looking in my books for the reference to what you have been saying about only three kinds of cores but I can't find it? Could someone steer me to it?

Sorry if it doesn't fit this topic but you are discussing it so I took a chance.



Julia. - May 6, 2004 7:46 am (#496 of 1957)

Sure Verbina , here it is. "Every ollivander wand has a core of a powerful magical substance, Mr Potter. We use unicorn hairs, phoenix tail feathers, and the heartstrings of dragons." (PS/SS ch. 5, pg. 83-84, US)



Verbina - May 6, 2004 7:49 am (#497 of 1957)

Thank you very much!!!! I knew I had read it but for the life of me I couldn't remember it or find it at all!!!!!!



quibble savant - May 12, 2004 6:27 pm (#498 of 1957)

Yahoo! I finally finished reading this whole thread. This is my first post so be gentle. I would like to add my opinions on some of the topics discussed so far.

Ron as a Seer? - I do not believe he will be the seer. A anagram for his name(including first, middle and last) is "Boy will ID Luna as seer" so I think he will hear her first true prediction prior to his apparation test in year six.

Ron as a betrayer? - Although there are instances that point to the possibility of betrayal like in his separation in GOF with Harry prior to the first task and that his pet was Scabbers (Wormtail)who was also Percy's pet, I am of the opinion that he is on the whole loyal to his friends. I believe that he just lacks the three C's (Confidence, Conviction, and Concentration)due to a low self esteem which in turn causes many of his statements and remarks where he trods on himself since that is how he feels others are to him. At the closing on OotP he was beginning to get self confidence and will now probably become more powerful and loyal be being himself without holding back.

Ron as Quidditch Captain? - Although I would rather have Harry get the captaincy I believe Ron will get the nod. It seems to me in reading the books that teams who win don't have their seeker be captain because it would distract them from the snitch.



Tomoé - May 12, 2004 8:01 pm (#499 of 1957)
Edited May 12, 2004 9:02 pm

Teams who win don't have their seeker be captain. lol

Teams who win ... let's see :

Slytherin won the first year with a Chaser Captain.
Gryffindor won the third year with a Keeper Captain.
Gryffindor won the fifth year with a Chaser Captain.
Ireland won the Quidditch World Cup in 1994 with Beater Captain.

Gryffindor loose the first year with a Keeper Captain.
Slytherin loose the third and fifth years with a Chaser Captain.
Ravenclaw loose the third and fifth years with a Chaser Captain.
Hufflepuff loose the third year with a Seeker Captain.
Bulgaria loose the Quidditch World Cup in 1994 with Chaser Captain.

Following your reasoning, they should make a Beater captain, they always win. ^_^



Star Crossed - May 13, 2004 2:41 am (#500 of 1957)

I still hold high that Harry will get the captaincy, but true to his name, Ron will pretty much be captain, because Harry will need help with plays and practices. But then again, that goes against what JK said in her interview. Hnn...

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Ozymandias - May 13, 2004 2:45 am (#501 of 1957)

Which interview is that? Could you post the quote? Thanks.



Star Crossed - May 13, 2004 2:55 am (#502 of 1957)

Sorry about that!

bibwhang: Will Ron ever get on the Gryffindor quidditch team? JK Rowling replies -> Well, he's already there! The question is, whether the new Quidditch Captain will allow him to stay!

-JK Rowling World Book Day Chat: 04/04/04



mike miller - May 13, 2004 3:02 am (#503 of 1957)

Do we know how the Quidditch Captain is selected? My guess is the Head of the House, in this case McGonagall, makes the selection. There are good reasons to choose both Harry and Ron. Harry has displayed strong leadership skills (the DA as an example) and could benefit in his preparation for confronting Voldemort from developing strategy and managing a team. Ron has a deep understanding of the game and is gaining confidence from his performance last year.

It's a tough choise but I think Harry will get the job.



tracie1976 - May 13, 2004 3:20 am (#504 of 1957)

I really hope Ron does not get the Quidditch Captian position. I'd feel he would become more "power hungry" and it would go to his head immediately. He would be worse than what he was at the end of the Quidditch Cup in OotP.



Catherine - May 13, 2004 5:58 am (#505 of 1957)

Ron was right to be proud and happy when he helped win the Cup in OoP. Winning feels great! The team faced horrible odds after the loss of the twins and Harry, and Ron himself had endured ridicule all year. I don't think Ron has had much opportunity to feel like a winner, or to feel special in his own right. He's talking about it a lot the day after the match because it was so wonderful. He also gave credit to Ginny for catching the snitch "under Cho's nose." Once Hermione and Harry broke the news about Grawp, and that they had missed the match, Ron deflated considerably. I really didn't notice him having a big head after that

I don't see any real evidence that Ron is "power hungry." I do think that he is hungry to be seen as himself, and not just another Weasley child. As for the captaincy of the team, I keep hoping that Ginny will get it!



Devika - May 13, 2004 8:04 am (#506 of 1957)
Edited May 13, 2004 9:05 am

I always thought that statement was an indication towards Harry. I mean it could indicate the perfect friend dilemma for Harry as captain... whether to persist with his not-too-good friend in the team who really wants to be there. I agree Ron did make a comeback in the last match, but Harry never saw it, plus it was a one-off thing and Ron does seem prone to not performing too well under pressure. This is just my view. Feel free to criticise.



Erikson - May 13, 2004 11:33 am (#507 of 1957)

Hello! I'm new over here but I have a question: Why do you think Ron is going to betray Harry? Because if he is going to do that, how will the DE going to set contact with him?

Remember that in PA, when HRH first met Sirius, Ron said that he has to kill all three if he wants to hurt Harry...and Sirius was moved!!!

Perhaps I'm rong but please!!! I need some answers here.



S.E. Jones - May 13, 2004 7:23 pm (#508 of 1957)

I think JKR's comment about the new captain was just her playing with us again. Maybe Harry or Ginny will be captain and have to choose between friendship (i.e. keeping Ron) or what's best for the team (letting Ron go). Or, Ron will be captain and he'll be the one making the choice concerning Harry or Ginny. Again, I think it was one of JKR's classic side-steps that's not really meant to give us answers so much as leave us guessing....



Ozymandias - May 13, 2004 10:16 pm (#509 of 1957)

Is it possible to be captain without being an active player? Maybe Ron will get the captaincy and be forced to decide that the team is better off with another keeper.



Maollelujah - May 13, 2004 10:25 pm (#510 of 1957)

I believe one of the chasers (Alicia?) will be around next season, and as the senior most player will most likely be captain. Harry and Ron will have to wait until their 7th year to become 'el capitan'



S.E. Jones - May 13, 2004 11:34 pm (#511 of 1957)

Katie Bell is who you're thinking of.

But that would mean that Gryffindor would have a new Captain three years in row, four by the time Harry and company graduate and the new captain takes over. If Harry, Ron, or Ginny got the Captaincy now, the team would have the same captain for two, possibly three (in the case of Ginny), years in a row. That seems the smarter way to go....



Star Crossed - May 14, 2004 2:45 am (#512 of 1957)

I don't see Katie as captain. She seems to be happy doing her Chaser thing. I don't think she can channel into Oliver Wood like Angelina did. I think Katie would be happy taking orders from someone like Harry. I don't know if it means anything, but at my school, if you want captaincy, you'd have to be the hardest worker, be on the team the longest, and be the most willing to help the other team members. That seems a lot like Harry to me, if captain is chosen the same way.



Anna Katarina - May 14, 2004 8:56 am (#513 of 1957)

Isn't this the Ron thread? Maybe we could have another thread to talk about the Quiddich captainship?



Star Crossed - May 14, 2004 11:19 am (#514 of 1957)

Well it still sort of is on topic. We are trying to find out who the captain would be and whether or not Ron will be kicked off by said captain.

But you are right and we should try to get back on focus.



S.E. Jones - May 14, 2004 11:49 am (#515 of 1957)

Well, if anyone's interested, we do have a Quidditch thread. I guess the question could be reposted there....



Loopy Lupin - May 14, 2004 12:05 pm (#516 of 1957)

Erikson-- Hi and welcome to the forum. I think there are a number of theories floating around suggesting that Ron will ultimately betray Harry. Personally, I don't buy it. But if it does happen, I would think that it would be due to Ron's jealously of Harry's fame and wealth. Ron pretty much keeps his feelings on that in check, but, as we know from GoF, he does apparently have limits to what he can endure.

As to Quidditch and Ron's keeping abilities (which certainly is on topic by the way-- this thread is all about Ron and Quidditch is now a part of Ron's life), I'm getting the impression that people view Ron's triumph against Ravenclaw as a fluke. Even when Ron was struggling, he was good when he was "on form." There's no real reason to think that the new captain (whoever it is) will kick Ron off the team except for JKR's comment in the chat. Aside from the fact the JKR loves to give all sorts of misdirection, also consider the context. Some kid asked her if Ron would ever get to play Quidditch for Gryffindor! Obviously, this was either a pretty dimwitted person or some type of pre-OoP question that somehow got through to JKR on this chat. In any event, I don't think there will be any real conflict about Ron remaining on the team.



Star Crossed - May 14, 2004 12:24 pm (#517 of 1957)

That's what I think, too. Try to give some life to a very dumb question. Someone should really go through those questions. Bleh. Does anyone think Ron (If he does stay on the team, which I believe he will) will improve his skills over the summer? Maybe even rival Wood? After all, the only person we've really seen on the Quidditch team from the beginning is Harry, and Draco slightly. I'm sure everyone needed to start somewhere.



Padfoot - May 14, 2004 12:50 pm (#518 of 1957)

I think Ron will still be active in the Gryffindor team. He loves the sport so much, it means a lot to him to be a valuable team asset. So it that light, I think he will definitely be practicing all summer to get better. Harry improved with his Patronus once he knew he could do it. I see the same thing happening to Ron at Quiddich. Not sure if he has what it takes to be captain though.



JKR4PM - May 14, 2004 3:26 pm (#519 of 1957)

I think you have finally discovered why this will be Harry's shortest stay at Privet Drive: to help Ron practice Quidditch! Wink



Star Crossed - May 14, 2004 4:19 pm (#520 of 1957)

I think it would be more fun to see Ron practice Quidditch at Privet Drive. Razz



Ozymandias - May 14, 2004 4:29 pm (#521 of 1957)

I always thought that Ron's Quidditch problems were due to his lack of confidince, since he could save the quaffle only if no one was looking. I imagine he'll be a much better player now that he's gotten one big win under his belt.



Star Crossed - May 14, 2004 5:37 pm (#522 of 1957)

And that his brothers aren't around. I'm sure that will help a lot. That's probably why he has a lack of confidence.



tracie1976 - May 16, 2004 7:49 am (#523 of 1957)

I'm not sure where to put this but since its about Ron I figured I'd put here.
I was reading somewhere, don't remember though, that someone found it strange that Ron was being dragged into the Whomping Willow by Sirius who was at the time in his dog form which Harry thought looked a lot like a Grim. With that the willow tree is usually planted in/around cementaries. And of course we now know, Sirius is dead.
To me this sounds like it is forshadowing Ron's death: Ron being pulled into a cementary by the Grim.
Just something to think about



Star Crossed - May 16, 2004 8:20 am (#524 of 1957)

I really don't think it's foreshadowing, but it is interesting. If it wasn't the fact Sirius just really, really wanted to get at Wormtail, then I would probably believe you (And go start crying.), but I still think it's really interesting.



Loopy Lupin - May 17, 2004 9:35 am (#525 of 1957)

I think that interesting too tracie, but I agree with Lyssa (Star Crossed). That was all about getting Wormtail. Plus, it wasn't a Grim it was Sirius.



tracie1976 - May 17, 2004 11:55 am (#526 of 1957)
Edited May 17, 2004 12:56 pm

Again, I'm not sure if this belongs here or not but here it goes. Twice in the books, Ron has mentioned Uranus. One of these times it was during Divination (book 4)(sorry I can't give the other quote but my daughter has book 4 at school) and the other time it was mentioned in DoM (book 5) " Harry, we saw Uranus up close!" said Ron, still giggling feebly....(pg. 795). Now I'm wondering why Ron would be the one saying this in two different situations.
Uranus is the 7th planet from the sun and then it is a mythological person too. Uranus which isn't a pretty story. Or could it be that that paticular planet, being the 7th one from the sun signify the 7 children in the Weasley family.
Comments appreciated



Star Crossed - May 17, 2004 3:01 pm (#527 of 1957)

The first time was just a joke, the second time, he was trying to clutch at anything for humour. Some people (Like Ron, apparently) deal with stress with humour, like my best friend. They can't take seriousness, so they laugh about it.

Wow, I'm really being a killjoy. *bows head*



Madame Librarian - May 17, 2004 5:01 pm (#528 of 1957)

Wasn't the second time in OoP during the battle at the MoM? Ron had been zapped by a particularly powerful spell, and was physically injured as well as no longer acting rationally. See chapter 35, pg. 795-796 (US) for the exact passage. Harry and Neville have just re-joined Luna, Ginny, Ron and Hermione, and Hermione's knocked out cold, Ginny's got a broken ankle and is in mild shock, and Ron is "acting all funny" according to Luna (pg. 796).

Ciao. Barb



S.E. Jones - May 17, 2004 5:38 pm (#529 of 1957)

Yes, Barb, Ron was "acting all funny" in response to being hit with some spell from a DE. He even had some blood coming out of his mouth. I'm guessing the spell did some damage to his organs, including the brain, causing him to go a bit "loopy".

OotP, ch35, pg795, US:
Ron's face was very white and something dark was trickling from the corner of his mouth....

pg796:
A bubble of blood grew at the corner of Ron's mouth and burst....

"And what about Ron?" said Harry fearfully, as Ron continued to giggle, still hanging off the front of Harry's robes.
"I don't know what they hit him with," said Luna sadly, "but he's gone a bit funny, I could hardly get him along at all...."



Ozymandias - May 17, 2004 6:15 pm (#530 of 1957)

I have a brother about Ron's age, and I have no doubt that he would think Ron's double entendres with Uranus hysterically funny. Only two jokes like this seems showing admirable restraint for an adolescent boy...or maybe my brother just has a terrible sense of humor. Anyway, I didn't read anything into it other than the typical body-part jokes that people of that age make.



S.E. Jones - May 17, 2004 6:33 pm (#531 of 1957)
Edited May 17, 2004 7:33 pm

I definately think that was the case the first time around. I mean, he's 14 and in a boring class that he hates! Big surprise he makes an off-color joke that the other teenage boys around him find funny... However, I think the fact that he made the joke in the circumstances they were in in OotP had to do with him getting knocked for a loop because of a spell. I don't think he was quite all there after he got hit. For instance, he didn't think twice about Accio-ing the brain to him out of the tank. Ron was creeped out by the brains the first time he saw them, I doubt he'd have walked up and tried to handle one unless he was a little loopy at the time....



Madame Librarian - May 17, 2004 7:24 pm (#532 of 1957)

I agree with you, Sarah, especially your assessment of his reason for making the Uranus joke at the MoM. Ron was acting drunk-like, saying inapporpriate things at the time--DEs after their blood a bloody battle, outcome uncertain--a "normal" Ron would be either be acting terrified as he did when they went in to the Forbidden Forest in CoS, or be brave and determined like he was during the chess game in PS.

Ciao. BArb



JKR4PM- May 17, 2004 10:28 pm (#533 of 1957)

Slightly of the current topic (sorry), but I just noticed that on her official site, JKR used Judas Escariot while imparting info about Ron.

-->There are also many superstitions associated with redheaded people and most state that they are in some way unlucky (Judas Escariot was supposedly redhaired), but this is nonsense; I happen to like red hair as well as weasels. (Extra Stuff, Characters)

Is she trying to give us a clue about whether or not Ron will betray Harry? If so, it appears that he will not as she doesn't like the reference of Judas being redhaired and thus 'unlucky'.

I am now firmly in the Ron won't betray Harry camp. Does any of this make sense?



Kip Carter - May 17, 2004 10:53 pm (#534 of 1957)
Edited May 17, 2004 11:56 pm

JKR4PM , I am red-headed and I have always been extremely lucky!

I feel "red herring" is the correct description for the Judas Escariot statement, a technique she seems to use often in her writings. In fact, it sounds rather fishy to me. If you think about it for a while, I am sure you will tie red, herring, unlucky, superstitions, Judas Escariot, and JKR together in a way where you will laugh. Maybe that is my weird sense of humor that redheads seem to have. Also, have you ever thought of how the twins could always "weasel" themselves out of difficult situations. Weasel is not necessary a bad trait.



S.E. Jones - May 18, 2004 12:09 am (#535 of 1957)

I think she was simply saying that some of the superstition about red-headed people being unlucky comes from the fact that Judas Escariot was red-headed. She also made this comment in regard to Ron, "Although I never meant him to be like Sean, once I got Ron onto the page he often behaved like my oldest friend, who is both very funny and deeply loyal." (bold mine). I think she's saying here that Ron, like her friend, is deeply loyal.

She also pointed out that she didn't buy into the belief that red hair equals unluckiness or that weasels equal malevolent animals and says she likes both red hair and weasels which is why the Weasleys are so named and red-headed.



Ihavebothbuttocks - May 18, 2004 2:09 am (#536 of 1957)

Semi-Germanically speaking, aren't all the Weasley boys "Red Herren"?



Molly Weasly Wannabe - May 18, 2004 4:55 am (#537 of 1957)

~~~Is she trying to give us a clue about whether or not Ron will betray Harry? If so, it appears that he will not as she doesn't like the reference of Judas being redhaired and thus 'unlucky'.

I am now firmly in the Ron won't betray Harry camp. Does any of this make sense?~~~

I took that statement JKR made about Red Heads being Unlucky (and her disagreeing that redheads are unlucky) as Ron dying/not dying.......not that he wouldn't betray Harry.



Padfoot - May 19, 2004 11:34 am (#538 of 1957)

I have always been on the camp that thinks Ron will remain loyal to Harry. JKR's comments seem to cement that idea in my head.

I love the weasel comment as I have two at home (well really ferrets, but close enough). Very good and loyal pets. Mine certainly have Fred and George's sense of humor.



Loopy Lupin - May 19, 2004 1:16 pm (#539 of 1957)

Uranus-- Nothing more than an off-color joke. Since she, JKR, got away with it in Book 4, why not go back to the well in Book 5? I must confess that I still find it rather hysterical, but then I am fond of school age humor.. at times...in small doses.

Red Hair(ing?)-- I don't think the redheaded Judas Iscariot comment was a hint or a diversionary topic. I am sort of torn on Ron's betrayal. His jealousy could rear its green head again, but I hope not.



Molly Weasly Wannabe - May 19, 2004 2:14 pm (#540 of 1957)

Just to make it clear......that was a Quote from someone on the forums. That is not my belief....I still think that Ron will betray Harry in some way. It could be something he does with his own knowledge, or something he will do w/out meaning to.



Dumbledore - May 19, 2004 2:24 pm (#541 of 1957)

I think that Ron will not betray Dumbledore (or that Ron will die in the coming books)...it would seem very LOGICAL that something like that would happen in the next books. However, jkr has the habit of doing exactly not what we were expecting! i think since the obvious thing that would happen in the next books is either ron betraynig harry or dying, then it will not happen jsut because of that!



Weeny Owl - May 19, 2004 7:20 pm (#542 of 1957)

There's a big difference between making a mistake and actually betraying someone.

Hagrid has let things slip that he shouldn't have, and Harry surely messed up when he believed that Sirius was being tortured, but while situations such as that can have tragic endings, they aren't betrayals.

Peter Pettigrew betrayed James and Lily. He did it with his eyes wide open. It was deliberate.

I cannot see Ron doing anything deliberately to betray Harry or the Order. He could make a mistake, he could let something slip to the wrong person, he could become the victim of the Imperius Curse, or he could be captured and given Veritaserum. Those things aren't betrayals, though.



Phelim Mcintyre - May 20, 2004 2:10 am (#543 of 1957)

Something I've noticed (see meaning of colour thread) but is relevant here is the colour of the Weasley jumper. Ron's is maroon. According to one sight this is the colour of self empowerment. What is JKR trying to tell us? How does Mrs Weasley see Ron? In the light of the discussion about Ron its interesting isn't it.



Molly Weasly Wannabe - May 20, 2004 6:30 am (#544 of 1957)

# *QUOTE**However, jkr has the habit of doing exactly not what we were expecting!**QUOTE**

From the majority of the posts I have read on any of the HP websites,it seems to me that everyone thinks that Ron will NOT betray Harry. So, from that statement above about JKR having the habit of doing exactly not what we are expecting.......does that mean Ron will in fact betray harry? Because the majority of people think he is a loyal friend and will not betray Harry.



Phelim Mcintyre - May 20, 2004 7:31 am (#545 of 1957)

Molly Weasley Wanabee - I agree with you, Ron will probably betray Harry. Not deliberatly. He will think he is doing what is best and mess up. But then he will redeem it. This friendship is too important to break. Will Ron sacrifice himself to save Harry and thereby redeem himself?

The betrayal of Harry by Ron will be a hardone to get out of, but is almost needed to bring the story to a climax.



Weeny Owl - May 20, 2004 7:48 am (#546 of 1957)
Edited May 20, 2004 8:51 am

Again, when talking about betrayal, are you talking about mistakes on Ron's part or do you mean that he deliberately and with malice aforethought and in a premeditated manner does something that hurts Harry, Hermione, and/or the Order?

I don't want to get into anything that is verboten here, but take the subject of adultery. If a wife chooses to have an affair, that is adultery, but if she is given a roofie and is taken advantage of, that is not her choice and is not adultery.

Since JKR stresses choices throughout her books, I just cannot see Ron choosing to hurt anyone he cares about. Even during GoF when he wasn't speaking to Harry, he didn't do anything deliberately that caused Harry a permanent injury. He felt Harry had lied to him and was angry, but even with his anger he never chose to be vindictive.

With all the possibilities of other characters actually wanting to hurt and/or kill Harry, JKR has plenty of opportunities to torment him without a friend bringing harm to him.

There are plenty of known Death Eaters and Death Eaters' children who want Harry out of the picture, but there have to be many more we haven't seen yet. I can easily picture someone at Hogwarts who seems innocent actually being a supporter of Voldemort, but not a Weasley.

With all that Harry and Ron have been through together, I cannot fathom Ron being anything other than true friend.



Fawkes Forever - May 20, 2004 8:10 am (#547 of 1957)

Even when Ron & Harry weren't speaking in GoF... Ron still cared about what happened to Harry. The night that Ron interupted Harrys chat with Sirius... it was out of concern... he noticed that Harry wasn't in bed & it being quite late came looking for him. Even though they weren't actually on speaking terms at the time. He didn't even retaliate when Harry shouted at him regarding the badge & a scar! Also, in the divination class the following monday, Harry makes a joke about Trelawneys prediction of his death yet again... & Ron catches his eye & looks like he is about to laugh... but Harry is still too angry to care!

Ron isn't vindictive at all during their fight, just immature, but after a while even he realises this. Whether this is Hermiones influence is only speculation. However, I feel that by showing him being concerned for Harry, even though they aren't speaking, shows that he is a good mate, indeed a true friend.

I don't see Ron betraying Harry... as someone else stated... it's a bit of an obvious plot line... not to mention a mirror of the maurauder story line... which I can't see happening.

In OotP, Ron has matured a lot from his GoF days. He's coming into his own, growing in self confidence & getting some responsiblity. He knows Harry has a lot on his plate & again is a good mate by letting him rant about this that & the other. I mean... I don't think many would have put up with Harrys outbursts in OotP... none but a true friend.



Loopy Lupin - May 20, 2004 8:26 am (#548 of 1957)

In OotP, Ron has matured a lot from his GoF days. He's coming into his own, growing in self confidence & getting some responsiblity. He knows Harry has a lot on his plate & again is a good mate by letting him rant about this that & the other. I mean... I don't think many would have put up with Harrys outbursts in OotP... none but a true friend.

Well said Fawkes. I want to be clear, if I wasn't before, that I don't subscribe to the Ron betrayal theory myself. I couldn't resist pointing out though that the seeds for another falling out between Ron and Harry have been planted; whether they take root or not remains to be seen. Personally, I hope not.



Weeny Owl - May 20, 2004 8:44 am (#549 of 1957)

I agree with you, Fawkes.

Ron and Hermione, and Ginny to some extent, put up with quite a bit from Harry in OotP, but when it came down to it, they still went with him to the Department of Mysteries, and they still did all they could the entire year to help him deal with the libelous articles being written about him and what Umbridge was doing to him.



mike miller - May 20, 2004 9:49 am (#550 of 1957)

I don't know how literally we can this but, on JKR's website in the details about the Weasleys she says "...once I got Ron onto the page he often behaved like my oldest friend, who is both very funny and deeply loyal."

I don't see Ron either consciously or otherwise betraying Harry. As you said Weeny, there are plenty of others who can provide that element to the story line.

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Post  Mona Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:50 am

Star Crossed - May 20, 2004 11:18 am (#551 of 1957)

I think that line was deliberately placed to show us Ron will not betray Harry. Cut my tail and call it hot, I set sail for Ron being a true friend.



mike miller - May 20, 2004 1:34 pm (#552 of 1957)

That's the way I read it as well Star Crossed. It's intersting how JKR reacts to some of the speculation about the series. She seems to almost take offense at some ideas like Lily being a DE - "how dare you". The statement about Ron is almost in the same vein. If the theory is central to the story, she seems to have a stronger response. This is contradicted by how she responds to the question of who will Hermione end up with - "haven't you figured that out yet".



Padfoot - May 21, 2004 11:19 am (#553 of 1957)
Edited by May 21, 2004 12:21 pm

Ron is a loyal friend that will most likely stay that way. I sort of picture him as Frodo's friend Sam in LOTR. Loyal and helpful to Harry. If someone Imperio's Ron, then that isn't betrayal. I could see that far more likely to happen than Ron turning against Harry. Although I really hope not, as Harry is going to need Ron and Hermione even more now.

"Cut my tail and call it hot" What an interesting expression! Goofy



Star Crossed - May 21, 2004 11:24 am (#554 of 1957)
Edited by May 21, 2004 12:25 pm

I actually never used that before. It came to me. Lucky me. JKR gets ideas for the greatest series written, I get ideas that make me sound rabid.

EDIT: To keep this on focus, I've said it once, and I'll say it again: JKR based Ron on her best friend. To make him betray Harry would show her best friend what she really thinks of him!



The giant squid - May 22, 2004 6:34 pm (#555 of 1957)

JKR gets ideas for the greatest series written, I get ideas that make me sound rabid.

LOL, Alyssa! I feel the same way a lot of the time.

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haymoni - May 25, 2004 6:06 pm (#559 of 1957)

Call me naive, trusting, dim-witted...whatever - I simply refuse to believe that Ron or Neville would betray Harry, Dumbledore, the Order...whomever.

They are good, decent, sincere people and they know that too much is at stake. Their families/friends have suffered terribly. They are not taking the current situation lightly.

The ONLY way I would find this believable is if they were put under the Imperius Curse and then, technically, they would still not be traitors.

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I Am Used Vlad - May 25, 2004 8:34 pm (#565 of 1957)

"Although I never meant him to be like Sean, once I got Ron onto the page he often behaved like my oldest friend, who is both very funny and deeply loyal. However, there are also substantial differences between Ron and Sean."

I don't think this quote is evidence that Ron will not betray Harry. JKR is saying that she noticed that Ron was funny and loyal like her friend Sean, but that doesn't mean he will remain so for the rest of the series.

And let me add that I am the world's biggest Ron fan and I don't think he will betray anyone. But the quote doesn't really prove this.

[/b]- Aug 24, 2008 3:43 pm (#566 of 1957)





Weeny Owl - May 25, 2004 9:37 pm (#567 of 1957)
Edited May 25, 2004 10:38 pm

One thing we have to take into consideration regarding Ron is the whole thing with the brains and what was said about thoughts leaving deeper scars than almost anything else.

I think after the Department of Mysteries battle, we'll see a more serious and considerate Ron. I think he will do quite a bit of growing up and realize just what is at stake.

The only person out of that who has ever faced Death Eaters before is Harry. Granted, Ginny faced Tom Riddle, Jr. in diary form, and we don't know whether or not Neville actually faced them when they attacked his parents, but as far as we know this is a first for everyone else.

I think Ron has had quite a few knocks that most fifteen-year-olds never have the misfortune to experience. His father was nearly killed, he saw what Death Eaters can do to someone via Frank and Alice Longbottom, and he has seen just how amoral and truly evil Voldemort and his minions are.

The six from the Department of Mysteries battle faced a deadly situation and lived. That will probably have a great impact on them all, and adding what his family has gone through, Ron is sure to mature by leaps and bounds.



Phelim Mcintyre - May 26, 2004 6:36 am (#568 of 1957)

Weeny Owl, I agree with you. We are going to see some major changes in the six who went into the Department of Mysteries. Neville has come of age in some way. Hermione nearly died. Harry has found out that he must kill or be killed.

In Goblet of Fire Ron was always getting mad atpeople who said "you would not understand". Order of the Phoenix was a wake up call. Roll on the new improved Ron Weasley.



Prefect Marcus - May 26, 2004 10:39 am (#569 of 1957)

The idea that the battle of the DoM will change the six DA members had not occurred to me, but it makes total sense. Thanks, Weeny Owl.

It may be the catalyst for what I've been arguing for a long time. Ron needs to start excelling at more than just comic relief so he and Hermione can equalize their relationship.



Padfoot - May 26, 2004 11:15 am (#570 of 1957)

You know, I have been thinking this whole time that Harry will mature by leaps and bounds because of the battle at the DoM. I had forgotten that Ron would too. He had a pretty big year also. For once he wasn't just Harry's sidekick. All of that has got to change his outlook on life and his behavior.



Weeny Owl - May 26, 2004 7:24 pm (#571 of 1957)

Good point, Padfoot, expecially with his victory in Quidditch. There were so many things he's experienced that are going to need to be analyzed and dealt with. I think we'll see some vast changes in him.



tracie1976 - May 27, 2004 3:19 pm (#572 of 1957)

I hope this goes here but anyways, this is what Rupert says he hopes happens to Ron. Rupert Grint (news), who plays Harry's friend Ron Weasley, has equally dark expectations of his character.


"I'd like him to turn a bit evil. I've always wanted to play an evil person," he said.




Morgan Champion - Jun 2, 2004 2:10 pm (#573 of 1957)

Personally,I don't think that Rowling would have Ron turn evil.If there's one thing she excels at,it's creating surprises in the books.Considering how many people have suspected Ron would turn evil,I don't think she'd permit it.If any of the Weasleys would turn bad,it's Percy.



Star Crossed - Jun 2, 2004 2:54 pm (#574 of 1957)

I think Percy turning evil is too obvious. If any Weasley turns evil, I think it'll be one of the twins. I think it'll be Fred, but this isn't the forum to talk about it.



Accio Book Six - Jun 9, 2004 5:50 am (#575 of 1957)

There is no way that Ron will turn evil. What would that prove? That no matter how much you love someone, you can never, ever trust them? I mean, if Harry can't depend on Ron, who can he depend on? I think that if Ron turned evil, that would be the last straw for Harry. Think of how much he's been through already without losing his best friend. There's just no way that J.K. would do that to Harry, Ron, and especially the Weasley family. I don't think Molly could take it!

Oh, and J.K. based Ron off of her husband, didn't she? Not exactly BASED him on him, but you know what I mean. As close as any character has come to being based off of anyone. I just CAN'T see it happening.



Chris. - Jun 9, 2004 5:52 am (#576 of 1957)
Edited Jun 9, 2004 6:54 am

Accio Book Six, I agree with you that Harry couldn't cope without Ron. He is the rock that Harry depends on.

Ron was "based" on JK Rowling's best friend, Sean... I think.



Star Crossed - Jun 9, 2004 7:07 am (#577 of 1957)

Wonderful point, Accio. I think all hope would just die if Ron turned evil. And for what? Money? I don't see that happening. Yeah, the kid wants money. He asks his father if he'll get a reward for catching Sirius Black. But does he go nicking it off people? No. He just waits for it to come.



tracie1976 - Jun 9, 2004 7:29 am (#578 of 1957)
Edited Jun 9, 2004 8:29 am

Personally I think Harry would do just fine without Ron. In GoF, we have Harry and Hermione working together to get past the dragon, which Harry successfully does, while Ron is off throwing his temper fit about Harry being in the Tri-Wizard tournament. As long as Hermione is there Harry will be fine. Plus in one interview, JKR said "Harry needs her badly." talking about Hermione.



Chris. - Jun 9, 2004 7:46 am (#579 of 1957)
Edited Jun 9, 2004 8:47 am

Tracie, could your thought of Harry coping without Ron be because you are a Harry/Hermione 'shipper? Don't mean to be rude.

When Ron and Harry are fallen out over the Tournament, Harry admits that having Hermione as a best friend wasn't as good as having Ron. There was less fun involved. Even though Harry will have other matters on his mind; Sirius etc, he still needs some humor in his life which I don't think Hermione can supply.

What could persuade Ron to join the Dark side?

I don't think a chance of money would persuade Ron. He has realised, probably after the DoM battle, that they're are more important things in life. Also, after Hermione's injury, he doesn't want anyone hurt anymore.

In my opinion, Ron won't go to Voldemort. He, Harry and Hermione have been through a lot together, even though the fall out in GoF. Also, he has seen how Percy was disowned by his family after supporting the Ministry. Imagine how the Weasleys would feel if Ron betrayed the Order and most importantly, his friends and family.



Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 9, 2004 7:55 am (#580 of 1957)

Everyone is talking about betrayal as if it means Ron goes over to the join Voldemort. I agree this would not be in his character. But there is the Imperius curse, though I think that would be too obvious.

If Ron is going to betray Harry, the Order, his family et al then it will be by doing something Ron would do. In other words, he will attempt to do something and by doing that give an advantage to Voldemort and the Death Eaters. What appears to be the right thing has disasterous consiquences.

As to Ron being based on JKR's friend Sean, she does say on her website that the only character based on someone she met is Lockheart.



Chris. - Jun 9, 2004 8:06 am (#581 of 1957)

About the Imperius Curse, the caster would have to nearby to hit Ron with it. And then, I think, they would have to keep in close contact with Ron throughout the time of the curse's needed duration.

Unless, we are pointing to a traitor, in either the Order or Hogwarts, I find it impossible that someone could Imperio Ron.

Phelim: As to Ron being based on JKR's friend Sean, she does say on her website that the only character based on someone she met is Lockhart.

I don't think Ron was purely based on Sean Harris. There are similarities between the two. Harris being the best friend of JKR, likewise with Ron and Harry. Also Sean was the driver of a supposedly "nifty" blue Ford Anglia, surely an inspiration for the Weasley's car.



tracie1976 - Jun 9, 2004 8:14 am (#582 of 1957)
Edited Jun 9, 2004 9:18 am

Actually, I wasn't thinking about my ship when I said that. I pointed out proof in a book and used that to come up with my assumption about that kind of situation. Yes I do believe Ron may end up being evil and/or die but that didn't come into my head at that moment. Anyways......
Ron also seems to have a temper, IMO, that may have him somewhere off and roaming to cool down or possibly stop talking to the person all together ie: Harry and/or Hermione and he may not be there for either of them at some point.


added: Prongs quote: I find it impossible that someone could Imperio Ron. Don't forget that Ron had a very hard time throwing off the Imperious Curse when Moody casted it on him during class. Plus even with all those people around during the Tri-Wizard third task, Moody was able to put one on Krum so he could attack Cedric and Fluer. So it maybe easy for one to put the curse on someone without people knowing.



Chris. - Jun 9, 2004 8:31 am (#583 of 1957)
Edited Jun 9, 2004 9:31 am

Tracie, yes, I now think that it could be possible.

Harry and Hermione would definitely notice Ron being different, even though their suspicions wouldn't reach the lengths of him maybe being put under the Imperius curse.

If Ron was Imperio'd, who will be the caster?



Weeny Owl - Jun 9, 2004 9:15 am (#584 of 1957)

Ron is off throwing his temper fit about Harry being in the Tri-Wizard tournament.

I never saw Ron caring about the Tri-Wizard Tournament in and of itself. He was upset because he felt that his best friend was lying to him and deliberately deceiving him.

As for betrayal, I said it earlier... betrayal is deliberate and with malice aforethought. Being under the Imperius Curse is not betrayal. Letting something slip to the wrong person is not betrayal (think Hagrid). What Percy did was deliberate and hurtful; Ron is a far cry from Percy.

In five years of friendship, Ron and Harry have had one major tiff. They both got over it. They're only fourteen, and having been around fourteen-year-old boys, it's surprising to me that they haven't had more fights. It happens at that age way more than anything we've seen so far.

Ron was certainly very supportive of Harry during all of OotP. Although as a reader being in on Harry's thoughts I could understand his behavior, someone who couldn't know what he was thinking would be justified in becoming exasperated. Ron didn't. Ron continued supporting his friend regardless.



Padfoot - Jun 9, 2004 9:56 am (#585 of 1957)

I remember JKR saying she based Ron on her friend Sean (the car bit too). It was that old interview that's been shown on Biography a year or two ago.

I agree that Being under the Imperius Curse is not betrayal. Someone could try that on Ron, but I don't think it will happen.



Accio Book Six - Jun 9, 2004 10:37 am (#586 of 1957)

What would the castor gain by putting Ron under their power? I mean, he very rarely gets any good information that he could let them in on and he has no real power to make decisions on his own. Not to say he doesn't have free will... but you know what I mean. He can't just do what he wants all the time because he has Harry and Hermione to keep him in check.

I just don't see it happening. H&H would know what was up almost immediately IMO. Ron is a very unique individual, and they would know something was wrong when he stopped being funny or swearing or doing the other very *Ron* things he does.

I just don't think that Ron will ever (under imperio, or on his own free will) do anything against the order. I don't think that money would do it, and I don't think jealousy would do it either. Granted Ron was jealous almost to a fault in the past, OoTP brought about a new, more praised Ron. He is now known not as being Harry Potter's sidekick, but as Ron Weasley: Prefect and Quiddich team star keeper.

as a sidenote, I also don't really see ANY of Harry's friends betraying him. If I had to point a finger at a future no-goodnick I'd probably look more at the adults in the order.

I mean, come on... having one of Harry's best friends stab him in the back for big V? Doesn't that sound a little familiar and unoriginal?...



Weeny Owl - Jun 9, 2004 11:52 am (#587 of 1957)
Edited Jun 9, 2004 12:53 pm

I agree with you, Accio.

There are so many comparisons between MWPP and our trio, but there are so many differences that comparisons just don't work.

Moony - half-blood werewolf
Wormtail - rat Animagus and socially inept
Padfoot - pureblood dog Animagus with an attitude
Prongs - pureblood stag Animagus with an attitude


Harry - half-blood raised as a Muggle
Ron - pureblood with a large and loving family
Hermione - Muggle-born yet powerful (only female of the seven)


Comparisons have been made between Ron and Wormtail, yet it was Padfoot and Prongs who were the closest friends. Their bond of friendship is similar to that of Ron and Harry.

I just cannot fathom Ron doing anything to deliberately hurt Harry or Hermione, and in no way would he hurt his family.



S.E. Jones - Jun 9, 2004 3:22 pm (#588 of 1957)
Edited Jun 9, 2004 4:23 pm

Padfoot: I remember JKR saying she based Ron on her friend Sean (the car bit too). It was that old interview that's been shown on Biography a year or two ago.

Here's what she said about Ron and Sean in that interview:

JKR: "Ron owes a fair bit to Sean. I never set out to describe Sean in Ron but Ron has a Sean-ish turn of phrase."

Later:

Sean: "I think that the Ron character... I think what comes through, to me anyway, maybe I misinterpreted it, is that he's always there or there abouts, well intentioned."
JKR: "He's always there when you need him. That's Ron Weasley."

As for the Imperius Curse, wasn't there something in OotP about Bode being able to fight the curse somewhat or something because he was being told to do something he knew he wouldn't be able to do normally? Or am I getting him confused with Avery?



Catherine - Jun 9, 2004 3:39 pm (#589 of 1957)
Edited Jun 9, 2004 4:39 pm

Rookwood tells Voldemort that Bode would have known that he couldn't pick up the prophecy, and that that is the reason that Bode fought against Malfoy's Imperious Curse. Avery is the hapless Death Eater who had "badly advised" Voldemort on this matter.



S.E. Jones - Jun 9, 2004 3:52 pm (#590 of 1957)

Where is that, Catherine? I've been going nuts trying to find it.



Catherine - Jun 9, 2004 3:58 pm (#591 of 1957)
Edited Jun 9, 2004 5:21 pm

Sarah,

It's in Chapter 26, "Seen and Unforeseen" (OoP, p 584-585, Scholastic Hardback).



S.E. Jones - Jun 9, 2004 4:17 pm (#592 of 1957)
Edited Jun 9, 2004 5:17 pm

Thanks Catherine!

(OotP, c26, p585, US): "Bode could never have taken it, Master.... Bode would have known he could not.... Undoubtedly that is why he fought so hard against Malfoy's Imperius Curse...."

So, if you know you are being told to do something you wouldn't normally be able to do, it can somehow help you fight the Imperius Curse. So, if Ron were told to backstab Harry, something he wouldn't normally be able to do, it might be able to help him fight the curse...?



ex-FAHgeek - Jun 10, 2004 9:09 am (#593 of 1957)

---quote--- So, if Ron were told to backstab Harry, something he wouldn't normally be able to do, it might be able to help him fight the curse...? ---end quote---

The big question is whether or not he'd have the fortitude/strength of will/level of training to successfully resist it. After all, Neville wouldn't normally be able to do acrobatics (and surely would have thought that he'd break his neck if he tried) and yet Crouch/Moody managed to force him into it.



Padfoot - Jun 10, 2004 11:28 am (#594 of 1957)

Harry broke through the Imperius curse (in DADA) and had no strong feelings against what he was supposed to do. So I don't think fighting or resisting the curse is necessarily about the ability to perform the task. It seems more of a strength/willpower of the wizard fighting it. Now saying that, Ron was put under the curse easily and he could not break out. None of the students could except Harry.

I don't think this indicates that Ron (or any other student) will be placed under the curse. It just shows that Harry has more resistance than the average student. As Accio Book Six mentioned, what would be gained if Ron was under the curse?



S.E. Jones - Jun 10, 2004 11:59 am (#595 of 1957)

I think there was something different going on in regards to Harry being able to fight the Imperius. I was just saying that we know from Bode's experience that being told to do something you know you can't can help you and this might help Ron since he obviously needs help fighting the curse....



Dumbledore - Jun 10, 2004 2:01 pm (#596 of 1957)
Edited Jun 10, 2004 3:01 pm

But the only reason Bode resisted the curse so much was because he know that if he touched the prophecy he would suffer instant madness. Otherwise, when you under the curse, you are in an entirely blissful state. So, there must be a really strong reason for you to fight this curse so that you are able to overcome the feeling of "nothingness" (like suffering madness). What could possibly be so strongly on Ron's mind about the consequences that the curse could have for him that would allow him to be able to fight the curse?



S.E. Jones - Jun 10, 2004 2:07 pm (#597 of 1957)

That's not what the quote from the text said. Again:

(OotP, c26, p585, US): "Bode could never have taken it, Master.... Bode would have known he could not.... Undoubtedly that is why he fought so hard against Malfoy's Imperius Curse...."

All it says is that Bode knew he couldn't take it, despite why he knew (whether it be he knew it would cause madness or he knew he would grow feathers out of his ears, yes I'm kidding there); the point is he knew he couldn't and it helped him fight. So, if, under the Imperius, Ron were told to do something he knew he couldn't do (whether it be deliberately backstabing Harry or AKing Hermione), why couldn't it help him fight too? That's all I'm saying. Yes, he has trouble with it normally, but this might help him fight it.



Dumbledore - Jun 10, 2004 2:13 pm (#598 of 1957)

That's an excellent point, Sarah, and I agree with you on that. However, it does explain in the book why Bode knew he couldn't take the prophecy.

"And then you saw Rookwood, who worked in the Department of Myserties before his arrest, telling Voldemort what we had known all along - that the prophecies held in the Ministry of Magic are heavily protected. Only the people to whom they refer can lift them from the shelves without suffering madness."

(Order of the Phoenix, The Lost Prophecy, page 820)

Since Bode worked in the Department of Mysteries, he most likely would've known this, which would explain why he fought so hard against the curse because he knew it would cause him madness.



S.E. Jones - Jun 10, 2004 2:16 pm (#599 of 1957)

Yes, I wasn't arguing about that. I was just saying it wasn't the main stress of the comment, the main bit of importance, in my mind at least. As I said, the point is, he knew, no matter the reason, that he couldn't and thus could resist.



Weeny Owl - Jun 10, 2004 2:41 pm (#600 of 1957)

Good points, Sarah.

When the kids were Imperioed they were in a safe classroom setting. Knowing that nothing too dangerous would happen would make it more difficult to fight off the curse, I would think.

If Ron had been told to pet a spider, for instance, he could probably have thrown it off.
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ex-FAHgeek - Jun 10, 2004 4:10 pm (#601 of 1957)

---quote--- If Ron had been told to pet a spider, for instance, he could probably have thrown it off. ---end quote---

I'm not so sure. I think a big part of Bode's "bonus" to resist the curse is the direct harm. Ron is well aware that (most) spiders are harmless, they just freak him out. Like all phobias, his fear of spiders is an irrational one. There's no reason that he can't pet one; he just wouldn't want to do it. For the prophecy on the other hand, touching it results in destruction of Bode's mental capacities.



Accio Book Six - Jun 10, 2004 7:01 pm (#602 of 1957)

I think this is going a bit off topic here, but i'll just put in my two cents...

If RON (see? I'm still talking about him Razz ) was imperioed and then told to pet a spider, that might not be enough motivation to help him fight off the curse. But if here were told to pet Aragog... I don't know... I think he would find it in himself to throw off the curse.



S.E. Jones - Jun 10, 2004 8:05 pm (#603 of 1957)

You also have to consider the fact that phobias are irrational fears. They don't usually subscribe to the whole cognitive process of "okay, I know this isn't going to hurt me, so it's okay if I..." because you honestly think you are in a life threatening position for no reason. The fight or flight response kicks in when it shouldn't.



Weeny Owl - Jun 10, 2004 8:18 pm (#604 of 1957)

:::nods at Sarah:::

Irrational fears are quite often more difficult to deal with than ordinary ones. Most of us have fears about loved ones dying or being in a serious accident, but the fears we can't rationalize away are the ones that have more control over our behavior.

Ron is absolutely terrified of spiders, and I still say that if Imperioed and told to pet a spider, he could break the hold of the curse. I'm sure there are other things that might allow him or anyone else to break it.



S.E. Jones - Jun 10, 2004 8:39 pm (#605 of 1957)

Being told to AK Hermione for instance?

[Isenduil]Isenduil [/b]- Jun 10, 2004 10:26 pm (#606 of 1957)

Irrational fears? Am I the only one that hates spiders like Ron? I hate just thinking about them.



Ff3girl - Jun 10, 2004 10:37 pm (#607 of 1957)

Don't worry, you're not the only one who is RATIONALLY scared of spiders... once I even reached behind me to scratch my back and felt one crunch between my fingers underneath my shirt... *shudders* If I wasn't scared enough before then, that sure did it!!

Of course, I would bet that Ron's experience with the joke the twins played on him might have been worse...!!



S.E. Jones - Jun 10, 2004 11:26 pm (#608 of 1957)
Edited Jun 11, 2004 12:27 am

I know phobias seem rational, trust me, I have a few, but they aren't. The stimulus can't really hurt you (at least most of the time) and shouldn't cause the fight or flight fear response to go off, but does - hence the "irrational" part.

Poor Ron, I always feel bad for him when I read that part about the "joke". I wonder if he has problems with teddy bears now too?...



Star Crossed - Jun 11, 2004 6:37 am (#609 of 1957)
Edited by Jun 11, 2004 7:39 am

Aww! I can see him, being a daddy, and refusing to give his children teddy bears, as they psychologically impare students.

EDIT: Big 6 0 0!



S.E. Jones - Jun 11, 2004 3:02 pm (#610 of 1957)
Edited Jun 11, 2004 4:03 pm

This is not my post; it was originally posted by another member and is being moved to this thread.

Ron and the Mirror of Erised



Frank Kempken - Jun 10, 2004 3:57 am

Hello everyone, I am new here - and honestly - not quite sure whether this particular topic came up earlier. But there are so many discussion, so I simply might have overlooked it.

Has anyone noticed, that in book 5 Ron is very close to have achieved anything he saw when he looked into the mirror of Erised in book 1? He saw himself as head boy, quiddich cup winner and house cup winner. In the movie he also was captain of the team.

So in book 5 he is in the team, prefect, and the team won the cup.



Czarina II - Jun 11, 2004 9:27 pm (#611 of 1957)

Starcrossed -- I see Ron putting anti-transfiguration charms on his children's teddy bears instead!

Count me in as one of the people who sees Ron finishing the series as Head Boy, Quidditch Captain/Champion, and winning Gryffindor the House Cup. It would finish the series off nicely. (Of course, it would be nice if Hermione won the House Cup or such -- she has to do SOMETHING besides read a lot of books. Maybe she gets a special award for the best marks?)

In comparison to Harry defeating Voldemort, Ron winning all those prized awards would be paled. It seems fair compensation that for being the sidekick, he also wins something in his own right. We know he can't help Harry in the end.



Lady Nagini - Jun 11, 2004 9:32 pm (#612 of 1957)

If Ron won all those awards, I wouldn't want to read to series anymore. Too predictable. Too sugar-coated. Not JKR at all.

And I think he can do a lot to help Harry. Maybe not actually vanquish Voldemort, but he can be heavily involved in everything leading up to it -- like in PS or CoS or OotP...



Chris. - Jun 12, 2004 1:38 am (#613 of 1957)

As much as I like Ron, like Lady Nagini, I don't want him to achieve all the things that he saw in the Mirror of Erised.

There's just somethings in life that you can't get...and everything you want is one of them.



MrsGump - Jun 12, 2004 6:19 am (#614 of 1957)

I'm not sure if Ron were to stand in front of the mirror in OotP that he would've seen the same things.

After all, we only saw what an 11 year old, first year at a school, following in his brother foot steps wanted. I'm sure he was being called by his brothers names (we try to avoid it, but us teachers slip up every once in awhile). With five siblings ahead of him, that's a lot to live up to.

And he is about halfway to getting all of those things, so I actually wouldn't be surprised if he does. Of course, he could also not be happy so that we see those superficial things we think we desire are not always the answer.



Diagon Nilly - Jun 12, 2004 6:34 am (#615 of 1957)

Yes, I think if Ron stood in front now, he'd see a world free of spiders Smile

There's an old Jewish curse that goes "may you get everything you've always wanted." It's funny that it's considered a "curse", because if someone were to say that to you, you'd go "great, thanks!" But if you think about it, that would be terrible. You'd have nothing to strive for, your hopes would be gone, there's no more room in your life for self-improvement, and all your persuits would be shallow and self-gratifying...You'd turn into a Hilton sister!

So with that in mind, I too hope Ron doesn't achieve eveything in the mirror...and if he does, it's because he worked dang-darn-diddly hard for it.



Lady Nagini - Jun 12, 2004 11:51 am (#616 of 1957)
Edited by Jun 12, 2004 1:16 pm

Thanks, Prongs.

So what do you all think he'd see in the mirror now? What are his deepest desires?

EDIT: I'm going to answer my own question. Percy, maybe? Do you think he misses Percy or wants Percy back in the family, even if he was a total prat?



Chris. - Jun 12, 2004 12:07 pm (#617 of 1957)

His family to be safe? and a certain Viktor Krum falling mysteriously off his broomstick!



S.E. Jones - Jun 12, 2004 5:39 pm (#618 of 1957)
Edited Jun 12, 2004 6:45 pm

I don't know if it matters if Ron achieved everything he saw in the Mirror or not because I don't think that those specific things were what he really wanted most in the world. Dumbledore said, "Ronald Weasley, who has always been overshadowed by his brothers, sees himself standing alone, the best of all of them." What Ron wanted was to be recognized apart from his brothers, to no longer be overshadowed by them. So, I don't think it matters one way or another if he gets any of the things he saw in the Mirror because I think he's slowly, on his own, stepping out of others' shadows on his own. I think he'll make a name for himself by himself. It's not a matter of "getting everything you want" but a matter of achieving something you strive for and have self-confidence in yourself which Ron is slowly developing.



Czarina II - Jun 12, 2004 9:26 pm (#619 of 1957)

I think Ron would see a scene in the Mirror something like this:

- his family would be together and happy (Percy included)

- his father would be respected

- his mother wouldn't have a worry in the world

- he himself would be successful and everyone would be proud of him

- Hermione would be on his arm

- Harry (who would be part of the family) would not be so tormented

- there would be no spiders, maroon sweaters or corned-beef sandwiches

Very hard to portray all of that in a scene, I must say.



Accio Book Six - Jun 13, 2004 8:16 am (#620 of 1957)

I think that is probably exactly what Ron would see! Haha, except maybe he'd be holding a Firebolt 2 or something Smile



Steve Newton - Jun 16, 2004 9:45 am (#621 of 1957)

In chapter 16 of SS Ron says "I'm going to be a knight." I think that this will be his role in the books. This along with his strategic skill in chess suggest, to me, that he will be heavily engaged, and tough, in the coming war. If I had the time I would look into the Knight's of the Round Table to find one who's story parallels Ron's.

If I'm right I'm not sure what this says about his long term health.

It would also suggest that he will be one kick butt quidditch captain.



Casey - Jun 17, 2004 9:45 am (#622 of 1957)

I feel that Ron's going to die at some point just because he's my favorite, and my favorite characters tend to get killed. I think the death toll is going to grow and it's going to push Harry over the edge. Ron's death could be the one that does that. I hope this is not the case, but who knows.

As for all the posts about the Weasley's financial situation. I think way too much was being read into all that. But that was forever ago that all that was posted so...



tracie1976 - Jun 24, 2004 6:13 am (#623 of 1957)

Ok...don't yell at me but I found information about Ron dying but it can be really losely translated. So just hear me out lol. Its sort of in essay form so it may be a long post. I just want opinions especially since its like my first essay. (If this needs moved somewhere else just let me know)

In Order of the Phoenix, Professor Snape assigned them a potion that if made wrong, would result in the drinker into a heavy and sometimes irreversible sleep. (OotP p. 232).

As noted in OotP, Snape says that there should be a light silver vapor with ten minutes to go. Ron’s was spitting green sparks, Harry’s was dark grey, and Hermione’s was of course, light silver.

Well since doing the potion wrong can lead the drinker into a heavy and sometimes irreversible sleep, I figured I would look up the colors of the trios results with ten minutes to go in a dream dictionary.

Hermione: silver: 1. Symbolize something of value with guard to your personal development 2. Associations with the moon and may therefore symbolize the feminine intuition or the unconscious

Harry: dark grey: 1. Old age, death depression 2. Unclear state of mind where distinctions are blurred or where you have difficulty in seeing where you are going or have all sense of direction 3. Grey fog-represent the unconscious

Ron: green: 1. Fertility of nature which may indicate personal growth, some new development in your personality 2. Go, proceed; way is clear for you to go ahead; make personal progress 3. Signify corruption, as in pus or gangrenous flesh.

Well, since I didn’t understand what gangrenous flesh meant I looked it up on [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] It says Death and decay of body tissue, often occurring in a limb, caused by insufficient blood supply and usually following injury or disease.

Now saying that, this sort of foreshadows that Ron, will die either from an injury that is incurable or be killed. As for the personal growth, we do see Ron becoming more of his own IE: helping win the Quidditch Cup in OotP.

sources: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix by J.K. Rowling [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Revised Edition: The New Roget's Thesaurus in Dictionary Form edited by Norman Lewis A Dictionary of Dream Symbols With an Introduction to Dream Psychology by Eric Ackroyd



Star Crossed - Jun 24, 2004 6:25 am (#624 of 1957)
Edited by Jun 24, 2004 7:25 am

Finally, someone showing real evidence for Ron's early death. Great research. Not sure or not if this means he's going to die, but good job anyway.



Chris. - Jun 24, 2004 6:27 am (#625 of 1957)

I agree, great research Tracie, it's given me something to think about.



tracie1976 - Jun 24, 2004 6:45 am (#626 of 1957)

Thanks guys. I was a little hesitant about posting it. I really didn't want tomatoes thrown at me lol.



Star Crossed - Jun 24, 2004 6:49 am (#627 of 1957)

I'd never throw a tomato at you...

...I prefer radishes. Wink



tracie1976 - Jun 24, 2004 6:51 am (#628 of 1957)

lol That would hurt more Star Crossed.



Accio Book Six - Jun 24, 2004 6:52 am (#629 of 1957)

I'd say it's a really good start, Tracy. Though I hope it's an incurable injury rather than death for my ickle Ronniekins!

I'd say if you want some constructive criticism, to try to expand more on your ideas. If you want to prove something to someone who doesn't want to believe it, you'll have to beat them over the head with an idea, so making it a bit longer and explaining every little bit a little bit more might help in making it a bit more convincing.

I like your idea, though. I am, however, skeptical about making decisions based on colours. JKR could totally have just been making a joke at Ron's potions abilities and just chose green because it would be a typical "slip up" colour. I don't know though.



tracie1976 - Jun 24, 2004 7:01 am (#630 of 1957)

Accio Book Six I'm am trying to figure out how to expand on it more. Hopefully I can and then I'll post it somewhere on a website and will let you guys know

As for the colors JKR picked it could have been a typical "slip up" like you said but you never know JKR's mind lol. I just thought it was strange how she only chose the trios to have a color that is mentioned. So it got me thinking lol.



Accio Book Six - Jun 24, 2004 7:14 am (#631 of 1957)

The one major thing that makes me skeptical is the number of times through out the series she has described the colours of their potions. Nevilles has been described as a number of different colours at different times.



tracie1976 - Jun 24, 2004 7:29 am (#632 of 1957)

True Accio Book Six. I'm going to go and look back at the other potions mentioned and see which ones cause what when done wrong and the colors mentioned and their meanings. This particular potion caught my eye because of the heavy and sometimes irreversible sleep as the effect when done wrong. I'll probably look it up tonight when my husband has the computer.

Seems like I'm going to have quite a little essay on my hands lol.



Padfoot - Jun 24, 2004 12:46 pm (#633 of 1957)

Ron: green: 1. Fertility of nature which may indicate personal growth, some new development in your personality 2. Go, proceed; way is clear for you to go ahead; make personal progress 3. Signify corruption, as in pus or gangrenous flesh.

When I read that definition, I thought you were going to go in a different direction entirely. The words personal progress and corruption stood out to me. For some reason I thought of the people who think Ron will betray Harry. This would be a good clue towards that. Although I do not believe for an instant that he will. Just thought I would throw that in there.



S.E. Jones - Jun 24, 2004 4:09 pm (#634 of 1957)

It could also be some clue to him finally growing personally. People have also said that he needs to grow as an individual so that he can step out of his brothers' and best friend's shadows and I think "Fertility of nature which may indicate personal growth, some new development in your personality" definately could signify that.

Also, I have some trouble with taking only one definition of the color as pointing to his death because it mentions necrosis (death of tissues) while one of Harry's defintions outright mentions death: "Old age, death, depression" as well as the hidden or confused paths (perhaps behind the veil?) and the unconscious which might be linked to the soul. I'm saying, in my mind, more of Harry's definitions point to him dying (which I don't think will happen) than to one part of one of Ron's definitions of color....



The giant squid - Jun 25, 2004 1:03 am (#635 of 1957)

Also, isn't OotP where Ron joins the quidditch team? Horrible at first, by the end of the book he wins the game. Sounds like personal growth and development of personality to me.

--Mike



S.E. Jones - Jun 25, 2004 10:18 pm (#636 of 1957)

It's also where he becomes a prefect which could be the begining of him developing a sense of responsibility (though we haven't seen it too broadly expressed as yet) which lends itself to personal growth as well....



tracie1976 - Jun 26, 2004 2:32 am (#637 of 1957)

I was thinking back on that essay I put on this thread #614 (unfortunately I don't know how to just link the post)

Ron: green: 1. Fertility of nature which may indicate personal growth, some new development in your personality 2. Go, proceed; way is clear for you to go ahead; make personal progress 3. Signify corruption, as in pus or gangrenous flesh

The AK curse has a bright flash of green light and we all know that kills people so I'm now thinking even more that Ron will die.



Star Crossed - Jun 26, 2004 4:41 am (#638 of 1957)

Hmm...and the Patronus spell is silver. So does this mean Harry and Hermione are going to recieve protection?



Chemyst - Jun 26, 2004 5:07 am (#639 of 1957)

There is a Hidden meaning of Colour thread where it would be more appropriate to discuss Harry and Hermione's grey & silver, but as for Ron, (and DD's comments about the next great adventure not withstanding,) it does not make a lot of sense to conclude that death is a kind of personality development.



tracie1976 - Jun 26, 2004 7:18 am (#640 of 1957)

Here I go expanding on my little essay again. Just shut me up at any time lol.

CoS p. 112 "...you'll pay for that one, Malfoy!" and (Ron) pointed it furiously under Flint's arm at Malfoy's face.

A loud bang echoed around the stadium and a jet of green light shot out of the wrong end of Ron's wand....

# sigh* There is that green color associated with something going wrong with Ron. Here we have Ron being struck with the curse and ends up vomiting slugs for quite awhile. Here he had to just wait for the curse to wear off.

# ok I'm stuck at adding anything else to my point lol but your ideas are very welcomed



Accio Book Six - Jun 26, 2004 7:34 am (#641 of 1957)

Well... all I can say is I hope that it's all just a coincidence we're reading too much into.



Leviosa - Jun 26, 2004 11:13 am (#642 of 1957)

Good work Tracie!

When I read your first lines, I was thinking of a completely different and of course not as intelligent an interpretation as yours.

Hermione's potion is light silver, as it should be. No death danger for her at all. This could be a clue that she will survive.

Harry's potion is dark grey. So for Harry there is some danger that could finally lead to his death. But nevertheless, dark grey is still somehow similar to light silver, so there is a big chance that he will survive.

Ron's potion is green and as far away as it could be from the ideal light silver. So he is most in danger of dying.

But maybe my interpretation is just too obvious... What do you guys think?



Czarina II - Jun 26, 2004 10:22 pm (#643 of 1957)

I just assumed it was a humourous portrayal of the Trio's Potions skills. Hermione's potion is light silver -- the colour the potion is supposed to be. Harry's is dark grey, which is closer to silver than green. Obviously, he is doing something right, but he's on the right track. He's just not concentrating. Ron's potion is flashing green sparks, which is obviously NOT supposed to happen. Thus, he is not the most brilliant when it comes to Potions. That, or he was concentrating even less than Harry. Either way, he is not the best student, that's all. But the theory is certainly interesting.



Accio Book Six - Jun 27, 2004 10:59 am (#644 of 1957)

Ron does worse than Harry (and especially Hermione) in everything. Whenever we see hermione checking their homework, harry's is always better... Ron's always just a step behind.



Day - Jun 27, 2004 12:04 pm (#645 of 1957)

Tracie, That is quite a bit of detective work! Very well thought out.

My train of thought was more along the lines of Accio and Czarina. Hermoine's, of course would be perfect. Harry was pretty close to the right color. I believe JKR was showing that when Snape leaves Harry alone his potion skills are far better. And Ron was having loads of trouble due to his extremely distraught state and foul mood caused by his Quittich insecurities in addition to his lack of potions skills.

Day



StareyedSlytherin - Jun 28, 2004 1:46 am (#646 of 1957)
Edited Jun 28, 2004 2:48 am

I have to agree too, I always took it as a reference to their abilities in the subject than to their destinies. That was an interesting point though.. something to really think about^_^

Also, it seems to me that in a way those color definitions seem to describe their moods in the book as well:

Hermione=feminine intuition [I guess.. LoL]
Harry=confusion, depression
Ron=personal growth.

So I guess if there's any meaning to the colors, it doesn't have to mean that Ron will die [at least I hope not] but could just be kind of an illustration of what he's going through or will go through emotionally in the future.

Anyways, that's sort of what I got out of it.



Day - Jun 28, 2004 10:44 am (#647 of 1957)

Call it the optimist in me but I just refuse to believe that Ronald Weasley is going to die. Did JKR say for sure that someone would die close to Harry aside from Sirius?



S.E. Jones - Jun 28, 2004 10:57 am (#648 of 1957)

No.



Accio Book Six - Jun 28, 2004 6:21 pm (#649 of 1957)

lol, very to-the-point, S.E.

Ron is just too important to die. I think we can expect a lot in terms of loyalty to Harry soon. I mean, he has to make up for his couple of immaturities (so does Harry) and I think he will. He'll do something great to have us all loving him again (though I never stopped.) Something to get us from liking Ron to thinking the world of him. JKR was quoted in that A&E thing as saying something like "That's Ronald Weasley, always there when you need him" or something like that. I don't think she'd do that.



Dumbledore - Jun 29, 2004 12:38 pm (#650 of 1957)

I already do think the world of Ron! However, I personally don't think that Ron will die because the best friend being murdered by the enemy or the best friend sacrificing himself for the hero plot is too used and obvious for JKR to use it!

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S.E. Jones - Jun 30, 2004 8:39 pm (#651 of 1957)

Just found this on the Lexicon's HBP page:

In March 1997, Ron will turn seventeen, and will therefore be of age in the wizarding world and old enough to obtain a license to Apparate.

That means Ron will be of age for almost four months by the time school is out for the summer and will be able to openly do magic (well, not "openly" but without being expelled) when he steps off the train at the end of the year.

So, does anyone think this could be somehow useful? Will we learn about Apparating as Harry helps Ron study for his Apparation license? Will Harry ask Ron to hex Dudley when they step off the train?

What do you think?



Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 1, 2004 1:12 am (#652 of 1957)

Ron turns 17 by the end of book six - cool. So apparating is just the same as UK driving liscences. You can take a test for a car at 17.

While he will not be able to join the Order of the Phoenix, this could must be useful considering how much Ron (and Hermione) have been through.

I don't think Harry will ask Ron to hex Dudley, but I think the apparation thing could be useful. Imagine Ron apparating into Harry's bedroom to discuss "you know who".



Fawkes Forever - Jul 1, 2004 1:15 am (#653 of 1957)
Edited Jul 1, 2004 2:21 am

Sarah, this is something I've wondered about before. Perhaps he will wait until the summer & himself & Harry will study for the test together. The same way the twins learned during the summer after their 17th birthdays (in April I think). Oh I'm sure Hermione would love that..... the lads being able to perform magic when she legally can't... unless she is the year older

Ron might get away with hexing Malfoy on a Hogsmeade visit if he can do magic out of school... hee hee... another episode of 'Malfoy the Amazing Bouncing Ferret'... oh I'd love to see that....

EDIT : Phelim... if Ron passes his test he could apparate to Privet Drive... or even visit Hermione over the summer ... hmmm, interesting..... oh the possiblities....



Czarina II - Jul 1, 2004 12:29 pm (#654 of 1957)

"...or even visit Hermione over the summer..."

Haha! Can you imagine the worrying the Grangers would go through?

Dr Mrs Granger: "Oh dear, what will we do, dear? Even if we lock Hermione's bedroom door and windows, boys can come visit her at night!"

That will be interesting for Harry, though. Ron the Prefect. Ron the Quidditch Player (while Harry was banned). Ron the Potential Captain. Now Ron the Officially Qualified Wizard! Harry will be jealous, no? I bet Ron won't be able to resist lording over his best friend a bit (in a non-serious way, of course, not like Malfoy).



StareyedSlytherin - Jul 1, 2004 10:51 pm (#655 of 1957)
Edited Jul 1, 2004 11:54 pm

[Dr Mrs Granger: "Oh dear, what will we do, dear? Even if we lock Hermione's bedroom door and windows, boys can come visit her at night!"]-->LoL!!!

Oh, the possibilities though^_^ That should make it very interesting if any attacks on Harry happen over the summer. Seeing how he'd be able to legally defend himself or have a friend legally defend him if it comes to that.



Loopy Lupin - Jul 2, 2004 7:35 am (#656 of 1957)

I'm sure Hermione is well up to making her room an "apparition free" zone.



Chris. - Jul 2, 2004 8:26 am (#657 of 1957)

Interesting thoughts everyone.

I hope Ron does wait until Harry and Hermione are of age to apparate. I would see as really unfair that he can but they can't. And I'm sure Ron would show off a bit which'll be annoying to read, in my opinion. Would Molly even let him learn to apparate!?

As for visiting Harry and Hermione, I'm not too sure about Harry, due to my thoughts that only certain people can apparate to Privet Drive, excluding all the "baddies"! I'm sure Hermione would welcome a visit from Ron though.



Surtseystwin - Jul 2, 2004 12:41 pm (#658 of 1957)

There really isn't anything that would have prevented Ron from visiting Hermione in the past, except perhaps, lack of an invitation.



Peter Woodward - Jul 2, 2004 1:13 pm (#659 of 1957)

I think Ron will be the new captain, because it is the responsiblity of tactics and so on, that is just too trivial for Harry as the "main character". I think we'll see many sleepless nights with Ron staying up and working on tactics/formations etc.



Czarina II - Jul 2, 2004 1:21 pm (#660 of 1957)

I agree that having Harry as the Quidditch Captain would distract too much from the main plot. Ron has been spending more time off-screen in GoF and OoP, giving him plenty of time to be strategizing while Harry is mastering Occlumency.



Dumbledore - Jul 2, 2004 1:25 pm (#661 of 1957)

I really don't know if Ron would be great at the strategizing aspect of quidditch. I really don't know why, it just seems like he wouldn't be very good at the planning a win for Gryffindor. I also imagine that it would be very frustrating for him. Not to mention, that if Gryffindor lost, he would be very hard on himself, just like he did when Gryffindor lost in book 5.



Star Crossed - Jul 2, 2004 2:13 pm (#662 of 1957)

Dumbledore: I really don't know if Ron would be great at the strategizing aspect of quidditch.

Really?! I think he'd be better than Wood! He's very good at stragety, as showed in PS/SS, plus he knows all the insides and outsides of Quidditch. I feel he'd be a better captain rather than player.



S.E. Jones - Jul 2, 2004 6:42 pm (#663 of 1957)

A very good point, Star Cross. You know, there must be a reason his chess men trust him so much....



Sir Tornado - Jul 2, 2004 11:29 pm (#664 of 1957)

Well, I don't think you should compare Chess players with coaches, I mean, who'd you think would be better better coach between Gary Kasparav and Sir Alex Ferguson? There's a lot to coaching (in the case of quidditch, captaining) than just tactics. You've got to be inspirational, got to have respect of your team-mates and most importantly got to have expirience. You also have to be able to control your team mates

As far as Wood v Ron goes on, I don't think Ron would be half as good as Wood was. May be, he wasn't the best tactictioner but he definately was inspirational and seemed to have respect of every-one. He could also manage the Weasley twins (that's saying something). I don't think senior team-members of Gryffindor Quidditch team like Katie would be happy to see Ron being made a captain after only 1 year while Katie had been on the team for 5 years. So, I'm not totally convinced Ron would be that good a captain as many Ron-fans here say.



S.E. Jones - Jul 3, 2004 12:24 am (#665 of 1957)

You've got to be inspirational, got to have respect of your team-mates and most importantly got to have expirience. You also have to be able to control your team mates

As I said, there must be a reason his chess men trust him so much (i.e. maybe he expresses these qualities during a chess game and has thus earned their trust).... Think of the way he acted during the Chess game in PS. He seemed far more sure of himself and Harry and Hermione felt better placing themselved in his care because they knew he would do his very best to take care of them. He was quite in command of that chess board. I think all he really needs on the pitch is a bit more confidence, which I think he is gaining in quickly....



Sir Tornado - Jul 3, 2004 2:00 am (#666 of 1957)

Right, but as, I said, Chess and Quidditch are completely different games, and while Ron might be a very good chess player, he might not necessarily be as good as someone like Oliver Wood when it comes to be a Quidditch captain.



Star Crossed - Jul 3, 2004 4:35 am (#667 of 1957)

They are completely different games, but Ron knows his Quidditch very well. I think he could do very well, if given the chance. Besides, we never saw Wood when he first started playing, nor when he first started captaining (Doesn't it seem odd a fourth year got to be a captain?).



Accio Book Six - Jul 3, 2004 5:09 am (#668 of 1957)
Edited Jul 3, 2004 6:11 am

Wood was a fifth year when he was captain... unless he was captain before Harry came.

Yes, Ron is very enthusiastic about Quiddich. His walls are plastered in posters for the Chudley Cannons... but do you guys think that every rabid hockey fan in Canada (where I'm from) would instantly make a good coach because they're enthusiastic? And how would Ron react if he led his team to failure? I bet he'd just go and talk about quitting, etc.

I agree that Ron is great at Chess, which would lead one to assume that he'd be good at the strategy behind Quiddich, but so far he hasn't shown much interest in that stuff. He's shown a love for the game, but the only two characters we've ever really seen theorize about quiddich moves or think about specific plays are Wood and Harry. I mean, what did Harry use his omnioculars for? I was watching the moves, learning the strategy, waiting to try them himself. What did Ron use his for? Watching a guy pick his nose...



Star Crossed - Jul 3, 2004 5:29 am (#669 of 1957)

Wood was a fifth year when he was captain... unless he was captain before Harry came.

He was a captain before Harry came, because Fred and George told Harry they're used to his talks, because they had them the year before.

I agree that Ron is great at Chess, which would lead one to assume that he'd be good at the strategy behind Quiddich, but so far he hasn't shown much interest in that stuff. He's shown a love for the game, but the only two characters we've ever really seen theorize about quiddich moves or think about specific plays are Wood and Harry. I mean, what did Harry use his omnioculars for? I was watching the moves, learning the strategy, waiting to try them himself. What did Ron use his for? Watching a guy pick his nose...

When did he get a chance? If he was given the chance, he would make a great captain. As for the way he uses the omnioculars, that was before the match. He may have been planning out moves and thinking of ways to improve the way they played. We can't judge what we don't know.



haymoni- Jul 3, 2004 7:26 am (#670 of 1957)

I think now that Harry knows what the Prophesy means, he will use Quidditch as an escape - he won't want the Captain responsibilities on top of everything else.

I think Katie Bell will be the Captain in HBP and Ron will be Captain in Book 7.



Sir Tornado - Jul 3, 2004 11:53 am (#671 of 1957)

I was thinking actually for Harry being captain in the sixth and, perhaps resigning and Ron getting the Job in the Seventh, that is unless Hermione joins the team. May be, Ginny might get the job in the seventh. She's definately bright enough.



Star Crossed - Jul 3, 2004 12:02 pm (#672 of 1957)

I can't see Hermione ever joining the team. I like the idea that Harry gets captain in HBP, but he finds it overwhelming, so he gets Ron to help him.



Dumbledore - Jul 3, 2004 1:02 pm (#673 of 1957)

I like that idea as well.



StareyedSlytherin - Jul 3, 2004 1:07 pm (#674 of 1957)
Edited Jul 3, 2004 2:15 pm

I like that idea too, Star Crossed. I have to say that I agree w/ what Tornedo said a few posts back. Ron's good at the tactics of chess, and no doubt he'd be good at tactics in general which would make him good captain material if he had the confidence. However, confidence is one of the more important parts of being captain. He also needs to be a leader, and those he leads have to want to follow his lead. I'm not sure that he'd have the confidence just yet to allow his teammates to be able to have the faith in him that he can lead them to victory. That might have to wait till the 7th book and for him to mature a little more. Right now, I just can't see his teammates following his lead. Especially with the way that Harry took control with the DA, much of the team already looks up to him as a sort of captain. They would have no problems getting used to him as captain of the team as well, and not only is he good at the tactics part, but he also shows strong leadership skills.

I don't think the door is completely closed to Ron being captain though.. I just think he needs to show more maturity as a leader in order to be able to take on this role. We all know what kind of prefect he turned out to be. I think that book 5 really seems to have set him up for a lot of self-growth in the future though, so by the 7th book we will probably be seeing him trusted with a huge leadership role, even if it isn't Quidditch captain^_^

EDIT: I also like the idea I think someone posted a couple posts or so back about Harry becoming captain and then having to lean on Ron for support at times. He will be going through tough times in the future and Ron is his best friend. This might be part of what helps Ron to mature and become more of a leader^_~



Dumbledore - Jul 3, 2004 1:12 pm (#675 of 1957)

Well said, StareyedSlytherin. I completely agree. You said everything I wanted to say, but alot more eloquently.



MrsGump - Jul 3, 2004 4:09 pm (#676 of 1957)

I'm hoping Ron gets to be captain. As for inspirational being a trait for captains, and how great wood was... I'm not sure having your team fall asleep during your pep talk is the sign of someone who is inspirational. Or make plans so complicated, no one could follow the lines on the board. And I certainly can't imagine Flint giving a "win one for the Gipper" speak in the locker room, either.

So, Ron's tendancy to few words probably isn't going to hurt one bit. He does need more confidance in himself so the rest of the team trusts him, but I think we saw that start after the Quidditch cup in OotP. If not Ron, though, it should be Katie. She has the most experience.



Czarina II - Jul 3, 2004 7:51 pm (#677 of 1957)

I think Ron has enough confidence to be Captain. Angelina was Captain in OoP and her confidence was rather low. Wood was overly obsessed with Quidditch and over-strategized. I don't think he realised how he was perceived by the team. Ron doesn't have Fred and George looming over his head anymore and so now HE is the star Weasley at Hogwarts. Hermione even mentions this in OoP after the twins leave. Besides, it is AFTER the swamp incident that Gryffindor wins the Cup.

I think Malfoy's "Weasel King" song backfired -- in the end, it actually gave Ron MORE confidence. (After all, he doesn't really explain what made him suddenly more confident. It sounds like he says the thought suddenly just occurred to him.) Ron realises now that he IS the "Weasel King", if you like. Aside from Harry, Ron is the star of Gryffindor now.

Ron could easily become the Quidditch Captain in HbP. Also, he can be Captain for two years instead of just one, which is usually an asset.



Sir Tornado - Jul 3, 2004 10:48 pm (#678 of 1957)
Edited Jul 3, 2004 11:50 pm

Well, Has anyone thought of a Joint-Captaincy? Like the Swedes' soccer team has joint coaches?

Ron could do the strategising part and Harry could do the leading part.

Now we just have to convince McGonagall.

--Cheers--

Edit: As far as HBP is concerned, has everyone forgotten Katie? She's still got another year left you know.



mike miller - Jul 4, 2004 10:30 am (#679 of 1957)

There are strong cases for Ron, Harry and Katie. Katie is senior on the team with the most experience and knowledge of the players on the other teams. Ron knows the game as well as anyone and being Captain, with some succes mind you, could really give him the confidence he needs. Harry could benefit from having to consider the skills of his teammates and to build a successful startegy. However, I'm think that the captaincy might go to a younger team member to create some continuity for the next few years similar to what we had with Oliver. It must be difficult to have a new Captain evry year.

Since this is the Ron thread, I think I'll ask the question of Ginny's likelihood of being the Gryffindor Quidittch Captain on the Giinny thread.



Sir Tornado - Jul 4, 2004 11:06 am (#680 of 1957)

Well, not strictly discussing Ron in this post, but Harry is as expirienced as Katie is. They both entered the team in the same year.



haymoni- Jul 4, 2004 1:17 pm (#681 of 1957)

Tornedo - I forgot about that! I still think it will be Katie though.



Star Crossed - Jul 4, 2004 2:45 pm (#682 of 1957)

Actually, Katie has *slightly* more experience than Harry, because the year before, she was a reserve.

[Isenduil]Isenduil [/b]- Jul 4, 2004 11:32 pm (#683 of 1957)

How could she be a reserve when she was only in her first year?



Sir Tornado - Jul 4, 2004 11:51 pm (#684 of 1957)

Why couldn't she? she could train on the school brooms.



Star Crossed - Jul 5, 2004 4:51 am (#685 of 1957)

I think you're allowed to be a reserve your first year, just not a main team person.



S.E. Jones - Jul 5, 2004 2:28 pm (#686 of 1957)

To bring the discussion back to Ron... My point about the chessmen was this: If you look at the Chessmen as soldiers and Ron as their general, he would have to exemplify the same qualities needed by a captain to make his troops trust him the way his chessmen do. They never question a move and he never has any trouble getting them to do just what he wants because he knows them so well. His mini-troops trust him whole-heartedly. When he was directing Harry and Hermione in the giant Chess game, they too were willing to put themselves in his hands. He masterfully moved them around the Chessboard so that they were never hurt. He also had no trouble taking charge of the new giant pieces. I think the main thing here is that Ron is confident when it comes to chess while he lacks that confidence in other areas, and so his chessmen see those qualities that do, in fact, make a good leader and so trust him so much. I think it says quite something for him that he plays Chess so well. The only way to really play chess that well is to constantly think five moves ahead and to know every possible strategy. Now, how does this apply to Quidditch? Well, he knows Quidditch very well, I'd say. I think he could, indeed, use the same skills needed for developing Chess strategies for developing Quidditch strategies (even if the strategies themselves differ, the skills used in the developing them would be the same). I'm betting he knows the Quidditch moves well enough to be able to apply this knowledge to his knowledge of strategy and come us with some good tactics. And, I do think he knows the Quidditch moves. Sure, Harry spent his time with him Omnoculars learning the different names of different moves and such, but Ron grew up in the Wizarding world, so he may have already known them. I also don't think his wanting to quit the team during OotP had anything to do with him not wanting to do badly or not wanting to embarrass himself. I think it had to do with not wanting to let his team down. He seems like someone who would put the responsibility of his team winning or losing completely on his sholders. This is a very endearing quality, one that can inspire a great deal of respect and admiration. Also, the only old players we have on the team are Harry and Katie, everyone else is new and only remembers this last year being on the team with Ron. This allows the players to have a greater possible attachment to Ron and Katie than to Harry (who was kicked off the team early on), and would thus be more likely to want to take orders from one of the former. They would also remember him playing that fantastic final game where he blocked all but one goal. He, like Harry, made a name for himself in his first year on the team.

As I said before, Ron's biggest downfall is his lack of confidence. He lacks a good sense of self and so lacks self-esteem, but, as OotP showed, he is gaining things on his own merits and thus gaining in confidence. I think he is developing that sense of self he needs to be really confident and bring out those qualities that few others have yet seen.....



Denise P. - Jul 5, 2004 5:28 pm (#687 of 1957)
Edited Jul 5, 2004 6:28 pm

This was originally posted by

Cuivienen - Jul 5, 2004 4:00 pm

I think someone got this mixed up. Alicia, not Katie, was reserve before P/SS. Interesting to note is that, while Alicia was reserve before Harry's first year, there are NO reserves any years afterwards (there was no replacement for Harry in P/SS or for Harry, Fred and George in OotP).

Anyway, back on topic -- I think that there is little doubt that Ron is the most qualified to be Captain, but I also think that either Harry or Katie will be given the spot -- the eldest member of the team has always been captain previously (Angelina must have been the oldest of herself, Fred, George and Alicia because she alone could cross the Age Line in GoF), though, so Katie is the likely candidate. Furthermore, Harry is probably already ineligible for the title of Head Boy since he was not made a prefect (though James was Head Boy but not a prefect, so this may be wrong), so JKR will most likely give him and not Ron the captaincy seventh year so Ron can be Head Boy. (This is assuming JKR will make either one Head Boy, but there seem to be no other candidates any more likely.)



Sir Tornado - Jul 5, 2004 6:52 pm (#688 of 1957)

I don't think it's about who is old. It's about who is senior. Alicia joined the team the same year as Harry and Katie did. Fred, George and Angelina joined the team together, but then no one in their right minds would make the twins Captains, so, Angelina got the job.

I know I'm rambling, but it boils down to this- Ron won't be the captain in the sixth book. It would be Harry. In the seventh, Harry would become headboy and Ron would get the captaincy.



S.E. Jones - Jul 5, 2004 7:58 pm (#689 of 1957)

Why would Harry have to give up being Captain if he got Head Boy, assuming it happens?

I still haven't seen any good reasons for why Ron couldn't be made Captain in Book 6....



Sir Tornado - Jul 5, 2004 8:13 pm (#690 of 1957)

'Coz he's just spent an year. Besides, other members of the team 'specially Katie will always see Harry as their leader. It's true that Harry has more of a leader than Ron can ever be. Also, the junior team-members and the DA members of the team would want Harry as captain than Ron. There's more to captaincy than just being a good Tactitioneer you know.



Czarina II - Jul 5, 2004 9:39 pm (#691 of 1957)

"Besides, other members of the team will always see Harry as their leader." -- Tornedo

A couple posts back, someone rightly pointed out that to most of the team, Harry has been on the sidelines.

The potential lineup for the 1996-1997 year Gryffindor team:

Seeker: Harry Potter (though Ginny can also play that position in an emergency)

Chasers: Katie Bell, ?, ? (one of whom will no doubt be Ginny Weasley, since I'm sure she will be guaranteed a position on the team after her performance in OoP)

Beaters: ?, ? (Kirke and Sloper weren't very good, though if no on else is any better...)

Keeper: Ron Weasley

Of these, the only player who has played with Harry for more than one game is Katie. The new players will likely be younger (I don't think many seventh-years would be trying out). While they would have seen Harry play and he has a good reputation, they wouldn't remember him as a leader on the team or even as PART of the team. There was no Quidditch in GoF and Harry only played once in OoP. A fourth-year trying out in HbP would only have been in their first year when Harry Potter last played a full season. Ron, on the other hand, has been taking a leading role on the team recently and won the Quidditch Cup LAST YEAR. I remember better things that happened last year compared with three years ago. Most teenagers certainly do. Last year, Harry was moody and sullen. He hardly paid attention to Quidditch. Ron was never on the team until OoP, but he kept up with the team's progress throughout the first three books.

There is no doubt Harry is seen (once again) as a hero. Ron, by comparison, is seen as just his best friend. By that reputation alone, I'm sure he'd eventually be trusted as Quidditch Captain. I don't think his "hero" reputation merits that trust, though. There is quite a difference between being a hero and being Captain. Ron has the dedication for the latter.

If I were McGonagall, I would choose Ron for Captain for all of the above reasons and more. Katie would be my second choice, Ginny my third. Harry has too much on his plate to be able to put enough time into Quidditch. Harry was just fine taking Wood's orders and even Angelina's. Would Harry take Ron's orders? Yes, he would. Maybe not initially, but he definitely would be glad that someone else was making decisions.



Sir Tornado - Jul 5, 2004 11:02 pm (#692 of 1957)

Last year, Harry was moody and sullen. He hardly paid attention to Quidditch. --Czarina

I'm sorry, but that is not true, Harry is interested in quidditch in book 5.

True, there won't be many seventh years in the team, but neither will there be any first years. I suspect majority of the players to be in their fourth or fifth years. Ginny is in fifth, the other chaser might be in fifth as well. I won't be surprised if Colin becomes the other Chaser. He'll definately want Harry. By the way, most of the Third years and above are sure to remember Harry get pass the dragon in GoF. That would count in his favour as well. By the way, actually, students' opinion doesn't count. McGonagall's does. She brought Harry in the team when he was 11. Surely, He'll become the captain, at least in the Sixth. May be, Ron'll get the band in the Seventh.



Ff3girl - Jul 6, 2004 12:07 am (#693 of 1957)

I think I'll have to agree completely with S.E. Jones on this one. I think Ron will be the next captain, especially because of his skills at chess.

Harry for sure would be too busy. JKR has said in an interview (can't remember where...) that Harry will be too busy to study to be an animagus. Becoming an animagus I'm sure is no simple feat, but it would take even less time than being a quidditch captain for the whole school year.

So my vote is Ron all the way!



S.E. Jones - Jul 6, 2004 12:55 am (#694 of 1957)

Tornedo: There's more to captaincy than just being a good Tactitioneer you know.

Yes, and I pointed out all the other qualities Ron possesses, so I still don't see why he wouldn't be chosen as Captain. Also, if Harry had "enough to be getting on with" in OotP, he certainly will now that he's had Sirius's death and the prophecy added to the pile. The Captaincy could be the feather that broke the camel's back, so I can't see McGonagall giving him the position. In terms of JKR, we don't know anything about Katie because, unlike Angelina, she has very rarely been mentioned and never flushed out as a character. Angelina had some character building moments long before she became Captain in OotP, so I doubt we'll see someone we hardly know except by name becoming Captain in HBP. Harry, as I said, is too busy. Ron, on the other hand, is a main character who has little on plate, at the moment. He'd be a much better pick, from a literary point of view, than Harry and Katie.



mike miller - Jul 6, 2004 10:02 am (#695 of 1957)

These are all good arguements for Ron as captain (also for Katie and Harry). I think McGonnagal has the long-term vision in clear focus. As I have mentioned on the Ginny Weasley thread, Ginny will be made Captain so that there will be a consistent leader for the Gryffindor team.

HRH are all going to be extremely busy with Prefect duties, studying for NEWTS and preparation for fulfilling the prophesy. Ron is Harry's "Rock", he needs to be there for Harry. I think he will continue to gain confidence through outstanding Keeper play.



Dumbledore - Jul 7, 2004 8:00 am (#696 of 1957)
Edited Jul 7, 2004 9:02 am

This whole post is not really about Ron, but more about who will be captain.

S.E. Jones, for all we know, McGonagall doesn't know about the prophecy, so she could give Harry the captaincy thinking it the most logical choice, because she doesn't know the full extent of what Harry has on his plate (although she probably has a general idea). When she (or Harry) begins to see that the captaincy is becoming too much of a burden for him, she would probably make somebody else captain.

Edit: I do hope it will be Ginny made captain!



Sir Tornado - Jul 8, 2004 12:06 am (#697 of 1957)

I think we ought to start a new thread on Quidditch cteams, don't you think? For the last couple of days, Harry, Ron and Ginny threads are completely filled with quidditch talks.



S.E. Jones - Jul 8, 2004 12:36 am (#698 of 1957)

We used to have one (it's now in the Archived section) but feel free to start a new one on general Quidditch talk (including Captaincy and other topics).....



StareyedSlytherin - Jul 8, 2004 8:43 am (#699 of 1957)
Edited Jul 8, 2004 9:43 am

I think that's a good idea. I've been noticing that a lot too, so seems to me like it would be a good idea to have a seperate thread for all the Quidditch talk^_^



Sir Tornado - Jul 9, 2004 6:13 am (#700 of 1957)

So, er, start one dear Slytherin.

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Sir Tornado - Jul 9, 2004 11:28 am (#701 of 1957)

Well, Finally, I started a new Quidditch thread. Now we can carry all the Quidditch discussion there and focus a bit on Ron here.



Courtney22 - Jul 11, 2004 6:07 pm (#702 of 1957)

I have a few thoughts for those who are pulling for Ron to be a seer. In the SS Ron sees himself as quidditch captain, Head Boy, and winning the quidditch cup when he looks into the Mirror of Erised. Now that all seemed a little funny and far fetched at the time but now it doesn't’ so much.

Well if Griffindor can put together another stellar team, and get Harry back as seeker, they will definitely be able to win the Cup. Many argue that Ron’s turn around at the end of the last quidditch season could get him the position of Captain since he is one of the older players. Also his being Prefect does allow for the possibility that he becomes Head Boy. The main theme of Ron’s desires was a longing for popularity and recognition. Throughout the books Ron has gained more attention from people in the school and seems to have growing recognition as he is now known for more than just being Harry’s friend.

Also Ron coincidentally (???) asked if the mirror showed the future.

Now I know the mirror doesn’t really show the future and all but perhaps these were cleverly laid clues. (Which if that’s true would mean that Harry ends up with his parents... Yikes:( ...who are dead)

All this being said perhaps Ron is a seer. I rather think that he’s just an idiot savant at the whole divination thing. You have to be able to clear you inner eye/mind to be perceptive right? Maybe Ron is just good at clearing his mind of all thoughts Smile (I don’t mean that as a big insult to Ron I rather like him actually, he reminds me of my best friend)

Hopefully this all makes sense I spent all day in the sun at the beach and my brain is a little fried.



Tomoé - Jul 11, 2004 6:39 pm (#703 of 1957)

Maybe Ron will achieve everything he saw in the Mirror, but it will no longer be what he want ...

Oh! and before I forgot yet again, we learned Ron is afraid of spiders in CoS, we are reminded that fact with the boggart scene in PoA and reminded yet again in GoF with the Unforgivable Curse lesson. Do you think it will play a major role in the future books, can anyone remember something about Ron and spiders in OoP?



Denise P. - Jul 11, 2004 6:43 pm (#704 of 1957)

Yep, while they are cleaning Grimmauld Place, there are spiders in one room. Ron excuses himself and remains away until they are dealt with.



Tomoé - Jul 11, 2004 8:04 pm (#705 of 1957)

Oh yes! Thanks Denise! So, why mention it in every books (except PS)?



Julia. - Jul 11, 2004 10:22 pm (#706 of 1957)

Because Aragog is comming back, and I'll bet Ron will have to face him.



The giant squid - Jul 12, 2004 12:01 am (#707 of 1957)

Aha! That's it!

Aragog is the Half Blood Prince!

..Okay, maybe not. Wink



drippan - Jul 13, 2004 11:28 pm (#708 of 1957)

First time posting here.

Ron is the one character I mostly resemble. I laugh and make jokes in stressful situations, I get along with most people and take their feelings into account, and pretty loyal to things that I want to be loyal to. My favorite saying is "It's mandatory to grow old but optional to grow up". BTW, I'm 45 years young and a grandpa.

That said, Ron (just like Harry and Hermione) is growing up. At the beginning of OotP he is still immature in his getting prefects (he doesn't want it) and him thinking that Harry would find it funny that he was trying out for the Quidditch team are just two examples.

By the end of the book and before the DoM fiasco, he starts bossing around 1st years (okay, maybe not in good way, but at least he's doing it) and got very confident in his Quidditch skills.

I think the one thing in OotP is how the DoM disaster is going to effect him? I mean this is truly the first time he has to face death and with DEs!! Everyone is worried about Harry and his prophecy, but everyone who went is going to have that impact on their life. I think it will effect Ron the hardest in his maturity and that is his weakest point, IMO. I think everyone else who went in is (was?) a lot maturer than Ron was.

I think Ron is going to do real well in the next two books. His strategist mind, his new found confidence, his listening to other people and their feelings, his loyalty, and his sense of humor combined with maturity is what is going to make him a great leader not just at Quidditch but also in the war.

Take Care,
drippan



Sir Tornado - Jul 14, 2004 1:22 am (#709 of 1957)
Edited Jul 14, 2004 2:26 am

Let me get one thing clear. Just being a good chess player doesn't mean Ron is a good Strategist. For being an exceptionally good chess player, you need to be/have--

1> A good memory.

2> Good concentration.

3> A lot of Patience.

4> Perseverance.

5> A lot of cleverness.

6> A good Strategist.

(Trust me, I know this. I myself am very good at chess

Now, from the start of PS, I have always been amazed at how good Ron is at chess, because he shows none of his abilities mentioned above away from the chess board. He doesn't strike as being Patient, or clever or a persevering person. This makes me wonder, Ron might not be that good a strategist as most people claim he is. I see Harry or even Hermione far good at strategising than Ron is. They are just not able to use it in Chess. Face it. A lot of great Soccer coaches like Sir Alex Ferguson or Otto Rehagel won't be very good Chess players unless they practise a lot. Ron might be a great chess player simply because he practises a lot. He is after all seen to be playing Chess at burrow with Charlie in GoF. After all, practise does make a man perfect, especially at chess.



Steve Newton - Jul 14, 2004 5:10 am (#710 of 1957)

Tornedo,

I think that the strategic ability demonstrated by his chess ability is something that will appear in the rest of his life.

A drippan, I think, said, Ron is maturing. The chess/strategic thinking ability will appear in the other aspects of his life. He has just never felt the need to concentrate on anything else before.



drippan - Jul 14, 2004 1:30 pm (#711 of 1957)

Steve Newton, "The chess/strategic thinking ability will appear in the other aspects of his life."

It already has in Quidditch. Didn't he come up with a great strategy to never let the Quaffle in!!

drippan



S.E. Jones - Jul 14, 2004 2:02 pm (#712 of 1957)
Edited Jul 14, 2004 3:04 pm

Tornedo: Let me get one thing clear. Just being a good chess player doesn't mean Ron is a good Strategist. For being an exceptionally good chess player, you need to be/have--
1> A good memory.
2> Good concentration.
3> A lot of Patience.
4> Perseverance.
5> A lot of cleverness.
6> A good Strategist.
...he shows none of his abilities mentioned above away from the chess board.

I think we will see these other characteristics appear, Tornedo. He just lets them get expressed through chess because that is what he is comfortable with. That is the one thing he is good at and knows he is good at. Ron has been suffering from low self-esteem and so stays locked up in this pessimistic attitude which is, of course, self defeating. However, as he becomes more confident overall, his other personality traits will be able to come out and we will see these traits exhibited. Personally, I'd say he is a very patient person; he is exceptionally easy-going. He has a lot of perseverance as he hasn't quit being Harry's friend despite the fact that it nearly got him killed in his first, second, third, and fifth years. He's quite clever, which shows in his witty lines (it takes cleverness to be witty). As for memory and concentration, well those are things that he most likely exercises only when he finds the subject interesting (chess, Quidditch, etc). His strategists' nature shows in his chess playing.... I definately think we'll be seeing these qualities coming into other aspects of his life in the future.....



Sir Tornado - Jul 14, 2004 9:25 pm (#713 of 1957)

It already has in Quidditch. Didn't he come up with a great strategy to never let the Quaffle in!! --drippan

drippan, you don't need to be a good strategiest to be a good keeper. You just need to have good reflexes and good intuition, and a bit of luck, and a lot of confidence. Ron, thankfully, has this all. So, he's a good keeper.



drippan - Jul 15, 2004 2:56 am (#714 of 1957)

Tornedo, "You don't need to be a good strategiest to be a good keeper. You just need to have good reflexes and good intuition, and a bit of luck, and a lot of confidence."

You also wrote about a good chess player and how Ron didn't possess any of these abilities away from the chess board.

"Good Concentration": You have to admit that Ron concentrated real hard in the Quidditch match watching how the other team is playing and moving.

"A lot of Patience": I can see Ron now playing keeper saying to himself "Wait for it, not yet, Now!" and stopping the Quaffle from coming through.

"Perseverance": I figure the match went on for quite some time (at least long enough for H/Hr to go deep into the forest, I calculate at least an hour). We know that Ron stopped the first Quaffle then another within 5 minutes a second one. Too go on that long is quite persevering, IMO.

"A lot of cleverness": Some people use the term "lucky" in place of cleverness, getting the two confused. Luck is when you have no control of your surrounding (good or bad), cleverness is what you do with what is dealt you. Think of poker: You are dealt cards and with luck, they are good ones. With cleverness, you can still take a poor hand and make it pay off (bluffing). Ron had no idea what the other team was doing but he was quite clever in what he was dealt.

"A good Strategist": I'm sure in the time it took to play the match that Ravenclaw took several time outs and talked about how to get the Quaffle past Ron, a strategy. They put it into play but Ron still stopped it. Part of being a good strategist is watching and reacting to what your opponent is up to. To do that, you have to have a strategy of your own.

Quidditch is a game just like chess or hockey. You have players moving around a board or playing field trying to accomplish a goal. Unlike chess though, you have more than one thinking person. That is why they come up with plays (strategies) and practice them together.

When the rogue bludger was going after Harry, Harry told the rest of the team to leave it to him. He came up with a plan, executed it and won the match.

That is the same thing Ron did (but probably alot more than one time)in the final match. He just did it in a defensive position, not in an offensive position.



Sir Tornado - Jul 15, 2004 4:12 am (#715 of 1957)
Edited Jul 15, 2004 5:15 am

Ok, drippan, you got me there. You're the first person on this forum to convince me of changing my views since I joined the Forum a month ago. Now I'm almost convinced Ron would be the Captain next year. But I don't think it would be so straight forward. May be McGonagall would give captaicy to Harry, and, I dunno, Harry would get injured before playing the last match and Ron would get the opportunity to captain the team in the last match and win Gryffindor the cup. Well, that would make everyone happy won't it? Except madam Pomfrey that is. Oh! and drippan, you forgot to write Drip Pan at the end of your last post.



drippan - Jul 15, 2004 4:22 am (#716 of 1957)

Tornedo, "Ok, drippan, you got me there. You're the first person on this forum to convince me of changing my views since I joined the Forum a month ago."

So there is hope that I can convince you to be a R/Hr 'shipper after all!! Wink



Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 15, 2004 5:44 am (#717 of 1957)

Someone mentioned Ron's unwillingness to be a prefect. That's not suprising when you consider his two older brothers. This year may be different. No Fred and George to make jokes, or Percy strutting around. Confidence from winning the Quiddich cup. Prepare to see a new improved Ron Weasley.



Sir Tornado - Jul 15, 2004 5:49 am (#718 of 1957)
Edited Jul 15, 2004 6:53 am

So there is hope that I can convince you to be a R/Hr 'shipper after all!! Wink -- drippan

Oh,yeah? Try just try it on our 'shipping thread. Personally, I won't be convinced 'till I read the Epilogue.



Sir Tornado - Jul 15, 2004 5:55 am (#719 of 1957)

Yes Phelim, a new improved Ron Weasley. Wait 'till Ron hears the Prophecy. Then we'd find a new worried Ron Weasley.



Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 15, 2004 6:22 am (#720 of 1957)

Tornedo - good point. With the pressue off from the family Ron will imporve, especially as he will want to develop the skills to fight alongside Harry. But when he discovers what the Prophecy says........ "let's go visit the spiders".



drippan - Jul 15, 2004 6:42 am (#721 of 1957)

Ron's reaction to the prophecy is going to go along the lines of "Nice knowing you Harry, have fun" type of remark.

This is the way Ron handles all the serious issues but not once has he ever left Harry's side. Well, maybe in GoF because he thought Harry found a way into the GoF and didn't share it with his "best friend". But never again.

drippan



Sir Tornado - Jul 15, 2004 11:45 am (#722 of 1957)

Ron's reaction to the prophecy is going to go along the lines of "Nice knowing you Harry, have fun" type of remark.

This is the way Ron handles all the serious issues --drippan.

Sorry Drip, But remember Sirius Black threat in PoA? Ron and Hermione were taking the news (of Black being after Harry) far more worse than Harry himself took it. That's exactly what will happen after they come to know about the Prophecy. They'll be scared to death.

Oh! I just love your name. Drip Pan, Drip Pan, Drip Pan, It has a nice ring to it doesn't it?



haymoni- Jul 15, 2004 11:48 am (#723 of 1957)

Ron knew the story of Sirius and well, the guy was standing over him with a knife - I think that would frighten me as well.

Ron may joke about it at first, but he'll take things seriously. He's volunteered to be Harry's second and he hasn't backed down yet.



Sir Tornado - Jul 15, 2004 12:03 pm (#724 of 1957)

Ron knew the story of Sirius and well, the guy was standing over him with a knife - I think that would frighten me as well. --haymoni .

haymoni , the incident I'm talking about happened on the train. When Harry told his friends that Black was after him. That was before Black stood over Ron with the knife



eifmp - Jul 15, 2004 12:12 pm (#725 of 1957)

Oh,yeah? Try just try it on our 'shipping thread. Personally, I won't be convinced 'till I read the Epilogue. - Tornedo

Well Tornedo, it is easy to see Ron and Hermione getting together. Hermione thinks Ron is cute, and even said so in 'OOTP'. Where? When the trio thinks that someone snitched on the Dumbledore Army, Hermione said that it couldn't be possible because that person would be hit with a curse that would make a bad case of acne look like "some cute freckles." We all know Ron has freckles.

Another hidden example. IN 'GOF', when Ron and Harry aren't speaking, Hermione asks Harry to go to Hogsmead with her. Harry replies,"What about Ron, though? Don't you want to go with him?" "Oh...well..." Hermione went slightly pink. "I thought we could meet up with him at the Three Broomsticks."

Also, I type this verbatim from 'GOF'; Harry liked Hermione very much, but she just wasn't the same as Ron. There was much less laughter and a lot more hanging around in the library when Hermione was your best friend. So all you H/Hr shippers out there, there is nothing between them.

Also, in 'PS/SS' Hermione introduces herself to Ron and asked Ron who he was, asked him to perform a spell, and even sat next to him, before even knowing what Harry's name was. Wow pretty obvious.

Now I can't be in a Ron Weasly thread and not say anything about the man himself, especially not for my very first post in this forum. I've played 'POA' game for the gamecube and Ron is used to find secret rooms and hidden items. Coincidence? Maybe...Maybe not. What I want to know is why does JKR not show Ron Weasley doing anything good as far as wizarding goes. Is he THAT bad? We don't see him fight anyone using his magic in any of the books, we don't see him perform in the Quidditch Cup Final. We never really know how he does on any of the tests. What I'm basically asking is... is Ron Weasley a good wizard? In a tight situation what can he bring that Harry or Hermione can't bring besides a timely joke. JKR shows Harry and Hermione and Neville fighting Death Eaters, doing well I might add. Ron, Ginny and Luna? All besides Luna is hurt. Ron? We see him giggling and laughing (obviously under a spell). We see him doing 'Accio Brains' and getting strangled by them. JKR made him so much of a fool that the fight stopped so everyone can watch, Death Eaters included. Why is Ron (my favorite character in the books) the only one to take HIS OWN SELF out of the fight? Eventually everyone but Harry and Neville are knocked out, why is it that Ron was the only one to do it to himself? Ron will come back strong in book 6 & 7. Maybe he'll be an animagus. I'm thinking since he's in Gryffindor, why not make him a Griffin?



haymoni - Jul 15, 2004 12:15 pm (#726 of 1957)

Then the first part of my statement works - Ron knew the story of Sirius, why he was in Azkaban, the blown off finger bit.

I still say he'll use humor to hide his nervousness at first.



Sir Tornado - Jul 15, 2004 12:26 pm (#727 of 1957)
Edited Jul 15, 2004 1:30 pm

eifmp, R/Hr 'shippers would welcome you to the 'Shipping thread. Read the posts there, you'll find that the minority (H/Hr) is giving the Majority (R/Hr) a run for their money. By the way d'you suggest that Ron'll sacrifice himself in the end?

I still say he'll use humor to hide his nervousness at first. --haymoni

Yep, and earn a reprimand from Hermione. I can almost read it.--

'Ron' snapped Hermione angrily before looking back at Harry saying ...



drippan - Jul 15, 2004 6:52 pm (#728 of 1957)
Edited Jul 15, 2004 7:55 pm

Tornedo, "Oh! I just love your name. Drip Pan, Drip Pan, Drip Pan, It has a nice ring to it doesn't it?"

Thanks! My fellow Marines gave me that nickname back in 1981 and I have worn it with pride ever since.

eifmp, "JKR shows Harry and Hermione and Neville fighting Death Eaters, doing well I might add. Ron, Ginny and Luna?"

All the books are written from Harry's point of view. We only see what he is thinking and seeing. I don't know if we'll ever know what happened with Ron, Ginny or Luna in the DoM. JKR still had time at Hogwarts and on the train to have any or all of the three to tell what happened. The only clue is that Luna said they wandered around in the dark. Did Ginny trip over something and hurt her ankle or was she attacked by DE's? Did Ron bump into some type of potion like the DE in the time speed potion? With Luna's big eyes, she probably saw better in the dark than the others? Maybe it's true what Luna said that they wandered in the dark but knowing Luna, she takes everything as non-chalant and wouldn't place the fighting of DE's in the category of "important".

"Maybe he'll be an animagus. I'm thinking since he's in Gryffindor, why not make him a Griffin?"

It took James and Sirius three years to become animagus. I'm sure they worked very hard to be with their friend, Lupin. What is your reasoning for him learning over the summer? None of the three (HRH) have even mentioned let alone studied on how to become an animagus. Unless the brains in the DoM gives Ron extra something (yet to be seen), I doubt it.

BTW eifmp, welcome to the forum. I've only been here a week myself.



Sir Tornado - Jul 17, 2004 11:25 am (#729 of 1957)

Over on Marietta's thread, there was some discussion on Ron and the Firewhisky. Prongs said: And for the record, I don't think Ron will be an alcolohic after one drink.

Well, Prongs, I wasn't suggesting Ron would be an alcoholic. I was merely pointing out that that incident means that Ron is still Childish and Immature. He needs to grow up.



Chris. - Jul 17, 2004 11:27 am (#730 of 1957)

Some teenagers have the urges to try something new like drinking alcohol. Ron may have been immature seeing as he was a Prefect but having one drink... it's not that bad. Although, getting drunk, for me, would have been.



Sir Tornado - Jul 17, 2004 11:39 am (#731 of 1957)

Well actually Ron did not drink. He had the urge to, but Hermione stopped him.



Chris. - Jul 17, 2004 11:45 am (#732 of 1957)

Yes, exactly why Ron and Hermione would be good together. She stops Ron doing wrong or immature things. But that's for the 'ship thread.



Sir Tornado - Jul 17, 2004 11:59 am (#733 of 1957)

Yep, that's right, she mothers him. Definately for 'shipping thread.



Paulus Maximus - Jul 17, 2004 12:14 pm (#734 of 1957)

"I believe, that Ron is never right unless he is joking."

Ron wasn't joking when he said he had a bad feeling about the Mirror of Erised. Nor was he joking when he said a really clever Dark wizard could fool Dumbledore. But both turned out to be right.

As for the tea leaves saying "die, Ron, die," Ron was only saying that he would never try to interpret tea leaves again. Considering that he was joking, that means he actually won't.



haymoni- Jul 17, 2004 12:19 pm (#735 of 1957)

I have noticed that teenagers today have a much different view of drinking than I did when I was their age. I am 38 and I believe JKR is about my age, so maybe her experiences are closer to mine or maybe she knew people that were more like the people I knew.

We didn't wait until we were of age to drink. The drinking age at that time was only 19, so it was a bit easier to get away with things than it is now.

Now I'm not saying that this is the way to behave, I'm just saying that Ron's comments did not seem immature to me. Stupid, yes, but they seemed quite normal for what we thought about at age 15 - "That guy will sell me anything!! - Yippee!"

I think that Hermione is MORE mature than the average 15 year old, which is why she reminded Ron of their Prefect responsibilities.

But I say it again, teenagers now have a much different view about drinking, smoking, sex - all of it. They have been educated about what can go wrong - certainly more than what I was.



Star Crossed - Jul 17, 2004 12:50 pm (#736 of 1957)

Alright, can someone explain how we got on the topic of Ron and drinking? I'm guessing maybe so posts were deleted? But that seemed to come out very randomly. Unless I missed something.



The giant squid - Jul 17, 2004 12:53 pm (#737 of 1957)

Actually, it wandered over from another thread. Don't worry, Aly, you haven't missed anything.



Chris. - Jul 17, 2004 12:55 pm (#738 of 1957)
Edited Jul 17, 2004 1:56 pm

Star Crossed, over on the Marietta thread we were talking about if Harry would forgive her. The conversation went onto Ron and then we started talking about Ron's maturity. That followed on with his idea of getting a Firewhiskey (Hogs Head). I decided that it wasn't appropriate to talk about it there, so we moved it over here.

Edit: Giant Squid posted right before me.



S.E. Jones - Jul 17, 2004 1:03 pm (#739 of 1957)
Edited Jul 17, 2004 2:03 pm

He really reminded me of Fred and George when he said that line, actually. It's a shame they make fun of him as much as they do, considering that he's actually quite a bit like them. Ron's also the one who said "we've never been allowed in" enviously when referring to Knockturn alley, though everyone seems eager to credit Fred and George with this line. It's the whole forbidden fruit thing: if you tell a kid they can't do something, it makes them want to do it more. It's immature, sure... it's rebellious, sure... but it's something a teenager does. Hermione and Harry tend to be a little older, mentally, than others their age, Hermione because of her intelligence and Harry because of circumstance, but Ron will grow out of the stage too, it's just a matter of time. All teenagers grow out of the stage eventually....



Star Crossed - Jul 17, 2004 1:03 pm (#740 of 1957)

Oh good! Thank you for clearing that up. Very Happy



MrsGump - Jul 17, 2004 4:31 pm (#741 of 1957)

haymoni ,

I work with teenagers every day (well, except for summer break, I'm a teacher) and the attitude is still the same. Nothing has changed. They learn more in Health classes than we did, they ignore more warnings then we did... lol

So Ron wanting to see if he could get some Firewhiskey is actually right on for a 15 year old. Maybe he's more mature than Harry because he's already tempted by the "adult only" forbidden fruits instead of less mature because he thought of it. Of course, whether or not he would've bought any at all or how much he would've liked it/ drank we'll never know because Hermione put an end to it before it started. I thought it was a nice way for JKR to show they're teens and interested in the adult world with out showing them drinking, smoking, etc.



Sir Tornado - Jul 18, 2004 2:59 am (#742 of 1957)

Mrs Grump; I disagree with you. I'm 15 and wouldn't even think about doing any thing like that. Honestly, don't your students read Newspapers? If they do, they should know, at least at 15, what is good for their life and health and what is not. Ron is definately immature in OotP. A lot more than Harry anyway.



drippan - Jul 18, 2004 4:07 am (#743 of 1957)

Tornedo, I think MrsGrump is right! (Sorry)

Ron asking for Firewhiskey and trying to get away with it is typical teenage stuff. It is also typical adult stuff but it's legal for them. Most kids I know would jump at a chance to get in my liquor cabinet.

Now, I also know some kids that would never do that. Hermione (and, now, obviously you!) is one of those kids who wouldn't even dream of doing anything of the sort.

After all the "breaking of the rules" done by the kids in the first 5 books, why wouldn't it seem normal for Ron to break one more? Because it's not "healthy" for him? I would say they done alot more unhealthy things before that! The one big thing that comes to mind is the Polyjuice Potion. Hermione might be great at mixing potions but she still could have messed it up (as a matter of fact, she did it to herself).

BTW, I thought you were Bella Lestrange? I don't think she would object to Ron drinking!!!!

drippan



Magika - Jul 18, 2004 5:57 am (#744 of 1957)
Edited Jul 18, 2004 6:59 am

Well, I'm 18, and I found myself nodding as I read MrsGumps post. Although I can now buy alcohol legally (I live in Norway, and the age limit is 18 here), I remember very well the curiousity we felt towards alcohol when we were around 15. It's not very long ago Wink

I've never been the worst party-girl, but the first time I drank alcohol was at age 15. I was curious, and everyone else 'had done it'.

I think a 15-yearold's curiousity towards alcohol (and therefore Ron's) might be pretty innocent. As long as he doesn't get obsessed with it, it's really ok with me. You won't end up a alcoholic after one sip of FireWhisky, after all!

Well, that's my point of view, as a Norwegian (not Ridgeback... lol) teenager...

-Si-



MrsGump - Jul 18, 2004 6:21 am (#745 of 1957)

Tornedo,

I do have some students that feel as you do, but they are the exception to the rule. Please take that as a compliment. Those students, and yourself, tend to be more mature for their age, are making informed choices and not letting social or peer pressure change thier minds from what they've decided.

I think JKR wants to make the students at Hogwarts seem like regular teenagers without actually having them do anything that would be not appropriate for a children's book. By having some students talk about things like alcohol and others put the nix to it accomplishes both.

Of course, you are entitled to view Ron's actions as immature if you want to. That's from your point of view. :-)



azi - Jul 18, 2004 6:21 am (#746 of 1957)
Edited Jul 18, 2004 7:22 am

Where I live (and I'm sure it's not an abnormal place) it is normal for teenagers to go out underage into pubs and clubs and drink alcohol. I remember when I hit 14 I drank alcohol at friends parties, never getting drunk (unlike my friends). Now, at 17, I'm still underage but don't mind spending the odd night in the pub drinking alcohol and often spend my time carrying people to the bus stop etc. It's normal to want to try alcohol when it's not allowed. Like someone said, it's rebellion. In fact, I'm surprised there hasn't been much more suggestion of alcohol drinking in the books so far.

Yey, my pineapple upside-down pudding is ready!



Paulus Maximus - Jul 18, 2004 6:28 am (#747 of 1957)
Edited Jul 18, 2004 7:36 am

I guess Tornedo and I are part of the minority. Granted, I'm 19 (where I live, 2 years shy of legal drinking age, although I've still tasted a few wines and found them disgustingly sour.)

Anyway, I don't drink alcohol just for the sake of drinking underage, but somehow I find it unrealistic to expect others to say the same.



The One - Jul 18, 2004 7:55 am (#748 of 1957)

Do not forget what Lupin said in PoA: "I have no hesitation in saying that James would have been highly disappointed if his son had not found any of the secret passages out of the castle."

Youngsters are not really supposed to follow all rules all the time. There should be a little rebel an some curiosity in any young man or woman. It is quite normal for Ron to consider the possibility to buy Fire Whisky illegally. A lot of youngsters would do so, others would not.

Remember, if the kids were not rebellious, they would not be there at all, because they were there in order to rebel against Umbrigde. Was that a bad thing?



Paulus Maximus - Jul 18, 2004 8:05 am (#749 of 1957)

Rebelliousness can be a good thing, but like everything else, too much can be as bad as too little.

Anyway, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with drinking alcohol, since even teachers give butterbeer to kids as young as 13, and there appears to be some alcohol in butterbeer.



Star Crossed - Jul 18, 2004 9:08 am (#750 of 1957)

Count me in as another who is underage who doesn't drink. I think with Molly as Ron's mother, it's not a surprise he wants to drink. His mother would never allow such a thing, so he wants to know what it is like.

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Sir Tornado - Jul 18, 2004 10:33 am (#751 of 1957)

Green Eyes; you were comparing the Polyjuice fiasco and the other rule-breaking situations with drinking weren't you? Well, I think you got the case completely wrong. The polyjuice incident was completely justified; they were doing it for a good reason. Most of the rules the trio have broken were for a good reason. But thinking of drinking at 15? For a school prefect? Well, definately not.

Well, as far as buterbeer is concerned; it isn't that alcoholic is it? I mean Butterbeer is kept at the party in OotP by Molly. She wouldn't give kids any thing thats bad for them surely, neither would Lupin.

Star Crossed... I always thought you were 25-something. I was really surprised to see you are under-age. How old? Well, as far as Molly-being-Ron's mother-thus-he's-tempted-to-drink argument goes; I don't buy that. Both my parents are non-alcoholic. I think the last time they drank was a champagne some 13 years ago. I know they'd be out-raged even if I mentioned alcohol while I'm underage. Still, I'm not enticed to drink behind their backs.

The One, you are comparing two different things. Rebelling against Umbridge was a noble move and they did it for a good reason. Drinking firewhisky in Hog's Head is anything but noble and for dishonourable reasons. No comparisons there.

Well, I think my reluctance to drink might be based upon the fact that most of my friends feel strongly like me on this topic and thus, get no pressure from them at all to change my views.



Weeny Owl - Jul 18, 2004 10:36 am (#752 of 1957)
Edited Jul 18, 2004 11:39 am

Underage drinking is an interesting topic, but as others have said, I believe it was put there to emphasize the characterization of Ron and Hermione as well as show that while horrid things are happening at Hogwarts, there can still be time to be a teen.

Some teens follow the rules, some follow them most of the time, and some rarely follow them. Fred and George have a great deal of influence over Ron, but so does Hermione.

Through all of the books, our trio takes chances and gets into trouble. That isn't always a bad thing, but it can be a dangerous thing.

The theme of what choices each character makes is a central part of the books, and it's a good lesson for all of us regardless of our ages.

EDIT: The Polyjuice incident wasn't a good choice because it involved stealing from a teacher, noble reason or not. Stealing is worse than a sip of Firewhiskey, at least to me.



The One - Jul 18, 2004 11:11 am (#753 of 1957)

I think I will leave this discussion, because I will only seem that I am encouraging the young participants here to start drinking. I certainly do not! Alcohol is a very dangerous substance, and restrictions on alcohol usage is there for a very good reason!

But I do feel that Tornedo does oversimplify the issue somewhat.



Sir Tornado - Jul 18, 2004 11:18 am (#754 of 1957)

The Polyjuice incident wasn't a good choice because it involved stealing from a teacher, noble reason or not. Stealing is worse than a sip of Firewhiskey, at least to me. --Weeny Owl

Yeah, but attacking Muggle-borns with a Basilisk is even worse. I think that situation warranted stealing during that time; but it didn't warrant taking a sip of Firewhisky.

The theme of what choices each character makes is a central part of the books, and it's a good lesson for all of us regardless of our ages. --Weeny Owl

Right again Weeny. But really, how many Rons around the world are thinking along the lines A-Sip-Won't-Hurt-Me? And judging by the comments made by the teachers on this thread; there aren't many Hermione to tell them "No". It is really frightening.



Magika - Jul 18, 2004 12:19 pm (#755 of 1957)
Edited Jul 18, 2004 1:23 pm

Well, I don't want to encourage anyone here to drink, but I think you overreact a little, Tornedo. Alcohol is not that dangerous if you know how to control it.

I grew up with parents who were strict, but fair when it came to alcohol. They let me taste wine and beer, but didn't allow me to drink on other occations. From I was 17 (again I must remind you that the age limit is 18 in Norway) they let me bring a couple of beers to parties. I think that's great, because when they trusted me in that way, I was not tempted to get other teenagers 'of age' to buy for me, which is very common in Norway.

Now, when I'm 18 and can buy my own alcohol, it's not that important. I seldom drink at all. I've got friends that had strict rules against alcohol at home, who have now got all crazy in the party-zone. I also know people who had strict rules that don't drink, and people with no rules at all that still don't drink, and people with no rules, that drink and pukes all weekend, and brags about what they did, and can't remember... *puh*

What I really want to say here, is that the meanings of alcohol is individual. Don't be-head Ron because he was curious to know what FireWhisky tasted like.

But to jump off the FireWhisky cliff... I just came into wondering about the Weasleys being pure-bloods... James Potter was pure-blood, wasn't he? Wouldn't Ron and Harry be related in some way???

-Si-



Chris. - Jul 18, 2004 12:23 pm (#756 of 1957)
Edited Jul 18, 2004 1:25 pm

James Potter was pure-blood, wasn't he?- Magika.

Nowhere is it said that but he would have to be for Harry to be a Half-blood, wouldn't he?

Probably the Weasleys and the Potters are connected in some strange way in the past, so I would imagine Harry and Ron are distant relatives.



Weeny Owl - Jul 18, 2004 12:47 pm (#757 of 1957)

Yeah, but attacking Muggle-borns with a Basilisk is even worse. I think that situation warranted stealing during that time; but it didn't warrant taking a sip of Firewhisky.

These were twelve-year-old children who were sneaking around stealing from a teacher. The problems going on at the school were for adults to deal with, and these twelve-year-old children took it upon themselves to resort to theft, impersonate other students, and sneak into another house's common room.

Wanting to try alcohol isn't something that should be encouraged, but at the same time, it isn't quite on the same level as what happened during the Polyjuice incident.

Perhaps we see things differently because of our ages, but from an adult point of view, theft is a much more serious crime than wanting to try a bit of alcohol.

If Ron had actually tried the Firewhisky, his main fear would be that his parents would find out. Molly can be quite scary when she's angry. If the trio had been caught stealing from a teacher, however, they could have been expelled or worse. Perhaps stealing, regardless of the miscreant's age, might call for a stay in Azkaban.



timrew - Jul 18, 2004 1:58 pm (#758 of 1957)

Nowhere in CS does it say that the polyjuice was alcoholic. And, going by the film, it wouldn't have been my favourite tipple even if it had a glace cherry and a little umbrella in it.

I remember when I was 16 or so, and I had a party at my house. I gave my friend about half a pint of my dad's whiskey and told him it was apple juice, and then bet him that he couldn't down it in one. He started to take a huge swig, spit it into the fire, and nearly burnt the house down!

Nope, alcohol and young kids don't mix!



Robert Dierken - Jul 18, 2004 2:02 pm (#759 of 1957)

Last I heard there was no age limit for alcohol consumption in Mexico. Can some one tell what the situation in Scotland is?

Note that the trio have butterbeers in the Three Broomsticks during PoA.



schoff - Jul 18, 2004 2:07 pm (#760 of 1957)

Hmm. I think "butterbeers" are on the same order of "rootbeers" or "birchbeers." No actual beer in them.



Robert Dierken - Jul 18, 2004 2:11 pm (#761 of 1957)

Butterbeer has some alcoholic content, since Winky gets drunk on it. I gather that it is somewhat weak, though.



timrew - Jul 18, 2004 2:12 pm (#762 of 1957)

They must have some alcoholic content, because Winky the house elf got drunk on them. In fact, after 200 bottles she was anybody's.



Ozymandias - Jul 18, 2004 2:16 pm (#763 of 1957)

One thing that seems to have been overlooked in this discussion is that Ron didn't actually have the Firewhisky. He said he wanted to try some. He did, on the other hand, illegally take polyjuice potion, fly a car in view of muggles, etc, etc, etc. Are we to condemn Ron for a mere thought?

This is not to say that I think Ron shouldn't have taken the potion or done many of the other things he has done. We have seen that DD, at least, supports illegal activity by minors for a good cause (using the time turner to save Buckbeak and Sirius.)

And to weigh in on the drinking thing: I too am in the Hermione-like minority who doesn't drink, and doesn't want to. I think this is largely because of my parents' attitude towards drinking. They never forbade it, and let me try a sip of their drink on the rare occasions they had a beer or glass of wine. Their only rule was that if I did decide to drink, I had to do it responsibly, and told me that I would not get in trouble for drinking, but for drinking and then not calling them for a ride home. It was never taboo for me, so I wasn't really interested. I think this is why Ron wants to try it. It's the forbidden fruit, and he's curious about it. There's nothing immature or irresponsible about this, it's totally normal adolescent exploration.

And Tim, your post made me laugh out loud. I'll forever picture the Polyjuide Potion with a little umbrella sticking out of it.



S.E. Jones - Jul 18, 2004 2:24 pm (#764 of 1957)
Edited Jul 18, 2004 3:24 pm

Alright, as I said before, it was an act of rebellion that many, perhaps most, teens go through. Ron, unlike most teens, doesn't seem to openly rebel against his parents (screaming "I hate you" and whatnot) but it still shows he has some rebellious thoughts. Okay, he's a teen, it happens. I'm in that rare group that didn't have those rebellious thoughts. I grew out of them in about a week. As my mother said, I was three going on thirty. I always made informed choices and expected others to do the same, but as I got older, I realized how few others really did. The majority of the people in the world don't get to the "informed choices" stage until sometime in their mid-twenties or so. So, let's not be surprised that Ron was acting like a typical teen.

I think this thread has gotten far too much into alcohol and underaged drinking and needs to be taken back on coarse. If you want to discuss Ron as a rebellious teen, fine, but that's enough of the alcohol discussion....



Eponine - Jul 18, 2004 2:26 pm (#765 of 1957)

I'm not sure if this is the right place for it, but as the discussion has been focusing on the Polyjuice Potion, I will ask it. Is it just me, or did anyone else find brewing the potion a little extreme for trying to find out a little information? I know that it had to be introduced for GoF, but I wonder if there was something else important in that scene.



S.E. Jones - Jul 18, 2004 2:45 pm (#766 of 1957)

Eponine, try one of these threads: 'Not Covered in Other Threads', 'CoS and Book Six', or 'Clues in the Movies...'.



Star Crossed - Jul 18, 2004 4:31 pm (#767 of 1957)

Tornedo, sorry I didn't answer, I'm only 14. I'll be fifteen this autumn. I thought you were 25ish, too though. Very Happy

To get off the drinking topic, how does everyone think the brains will affect Ron after the DoM? I think he'll be filled with memories of the person's brain. It might even be someone's brain that we know. I don't have OP with me (I really need to get me back my books...), but can someone tell me how many brains were in the jar? If it was two (I know it's more, but just for an example), it could have been Lily and James. They could have been trying to figure out how they produced a son who defeated Voldemort.



Ozymandias - Jul 18, 2004 4:41 pm (#768 of 1957)

I can't find a specific reference, but it seems like there are a lot. The tank is "enormous...big enough for all of them to swim in" and there are "a number" of brains. Nice and vague.

I love the idea of memories being transfered to Ron from the brains, though. Ooh, maybe the brain that got him belonged to Godric Gryffindor, and he'll tell them how to defeat Slytherin's heir. I don't think it'll be Lily or James, because that would just be creepy, to have your dead parent living in your best friend.



S.E. Jones - Jul 18, 2004 4:45 pm (#769 of 1957)

Well, they wouldn't really be living in him so much as Ron having some of their memories....

I've also heard the suggestion that the brain incident might make a latent ability of Ron's more prominent. This was in reference to the "Ron as a seer" theory....



Star Crossed - Jul 18, 2004 4:53 pm (#770 of 1957)

I would really dislike it if Ron was a Seer. Maybe it was a whole Quidditch team's brains that were magically taken from their bodies during the Quidditch World Cup. The DoMers somehow got them away from the Death Eaters, and now they study them to find out what seperates people that some are good, and some aren't. But now that they attacked Ron, he'll be a brilliant Quidditch star and captain.



S.E. Jones - Jul 18, 2004 5:12 pm (#771 of 1957)

Why do people dislike the idea of Ron having the ability to "see" or "seer" or whatever?.... Or am I opening a can of flobberworms with that question?....



Chemyst - Jul 18, 2004 5:43 pm (#772 of 1957)

Why do people dislike the idea of Ron having the ability to "see" or "seer" or whatever?.... - S.E. Jones

For me, it is a combination of little things. Ron comes from a big, generally happy, intact family. He is probably the closest kid to "normal" that we've met in the books; and seers are a bit strange & abnormal. So one reason is: I don't want that to change. Another small thing has been his attitude during divination class and on his OWLS -- he always expected to flunk, so beyond some strained poetic justice where the thing you hate is the thing you become, it just does not click. I think being a seer would also limit many good 'ship prospects; the kind of girls that would be attracted to a seer are stereotypically flakes-- and I wouldn't want that for Ron either. Another thing is that seers at least try to put up a facade of wisdom, so Ron may be witty and occasionally clever, but where is the aura of mystery surrounding bright red hair and freckles?



Star Crossed - Jul 18, 2004 5:55 pm (#773 of 1957)
Edited by Jul 18, 2004 7:17 pm

Chemyst, I couldn't have said it any better. He's that normal kid, basically. He's the boy next door. Give him Seeing powers, and you destroy that.



S.E. Jones - Jul 18, 2004 6:07 pm (#774 of 1957)

So, it all has to do with the facade of what a seer "should be" based on Trewlany's protrayal of one? But, just because Trewlany is the only thing close to a seer we've seen (except for maybe the centaurs) that doesn't mean all seers would be like her.

Chemyst: Another small thing has been his attitude during divination class and on his OWLS -- he always expected to flunk, so beyond some strained poetic justice where the thing you hate is the thing you become, it just does not click.

I've noticed something in regards to Ron and divination. He never even bothers to attempt it. He figures he isn't going to see anything, so he just makes things up. There is no actual trying involved. I've been looking at all the "divining" Ron and Harry do and have noticed a rather interesting pattern where Ron tends to come right out and say, rather straight-forward, what is going to happen, while Harry's "predictions" tend to need a very loose interpretation to be correct.... As for the poetic justice, I do think it would be poetic, considering that Ron still doesn't believe in Divination, despite learning about real prophecies (even the skeptical Hermione has changed her tune), and will be refusing, in the future, to interpret anything concerning Divination, even if his tea leaves come right out and spell 'die, Ron, die'....



Sir Tornado - Jul 18, 2004 6:51 pm (#775 of 1957)

Well, I am really amused at how my innocent coment on Firewhisky turned into o debate where each of the members were describing their Drinking habits. But I'm glad that we finally have turned the focus on Ron.

Well, Seer; lets see, I'd be actually rather happy on seeing Ron as great in Divination. I guess most of the members on this forum will always judge Seers based on Trelawney. Remember, Trelawney is an old fraud. I don't care if she's has made 2 prophecies, but I still think she's generally a fraud. I don't think "Seer" has to be that strange as Trelawney is. It's just that she wants everyone to believe that she's a "seer" that she makes herself look all strange and keeps on ranting about vibrations in her room, inner eye etc. to impress her students more than anything. If Ron does have "Seeing" abilities; i.e. genuine "seeing" abilities; he might as well act normal and have a couple of predictions from time to time. Plus, being a "Seer", he would be able to do something his friends cannot and would be a boast for his morale.

Did you guys get what I said?

--THANKS--



S.E. Jones - Jul 18, 2004 7:03 pm (#776 of 1957)

Yeah, well I caught it anyway. Dumbledore saw through Trewlany's act and was able to tell that she didn't have any of her grandmother's natural talent.... It kind of makes you wonder how her grandmother may have acted that Dumbledore picked up that it was all an act (up until she switched into "channelling mode")....



Magika - Jul 19, 2004 12:33 pm (#777 of 1957)

"He's that normal kid, basically. He's the boy next door. Give him Seeing powers, and you destroy that." -Star Crossed

That's exactly how I feel about Ron. He's so ordinary that he's special, if you see what I mean. I like him for being the one without any great powers. I like him because he makes up things for Divination and for having a bit trouble with the keeper-thingy (at least in the beginning of his quidditch-career).

I think if he became a great seer, or even a little one who could only predict tomorrow's weather, it would destroy the 'boy next door'-image.

-Si-



Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 19, 2004 1:45 pm (#778 of 1957)

Yes, I've always seen Ron like that, sort of like Xander in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, who never really gained any special powers.

Also, Mrs. Rowling is good at foreshadowing. We all know that. If she would give Ron any special powers, I think they would have been strongly foreshadowed in earlier books. My guess is that Ron will remain more or less as he is to the end as far as powers; the real struggle for Ron will be growing up.



James T. Kirk - Jul 20, 2004 2:08 pm (#779 of 1957)

Wands...Hah, give me a loaded phaser any day, As for Ron, I think he's going to end up with Hermione, so how could he possibly go wrong?



haymoni - Jul 20, 2004 2:46 pm (#780 of 1957)

'ship advice from James T. Kirk!

Now there's a guy who knows how to AVOID 'ships!!

I do agree with you though - Ron & Hermione.

Now let's set our phasers on stun and beam over to the 'ship thread!



Sir Tornado - Jul 20, 2004 7:28 pm (#781 of 1957)

Over on the 'shipping thread, I mentioned that I did not like Ron as much as I did pre-GoF, and drippan asked me to tell the reason on the Ron thread.

Tornedo: "For some reason, I don't like Ron as much as I used to pre-GoF."

Sure would like to hear your veiw on this. -- Green Eyes.

Well, actually, in the first three books, Ron Weasley is shown as a perfect best friend; who sticks up for Harry at all times. At the time, he was my favouite character. But in GoF, he presents his other side: he gets jealous and deserts Harry in GoF when Harry has to compete against a dragon. Now Ron lets us and Harry believe that he thinks Harry lied to him about entering the Tri-wizard. But then Hermione tells Harry next morning that Ron doesn't think that Harry put his own name in the Goblet of fire. So, now we know that Ron doesn't believe that Harry entered himself; knows that someone else entered him when Harry doesn't want to compete but still gets angry and jealous at Harry because of something Harry never asked for. Now that's not the way to behave with your best friend is it? This part of the story made me hate Ron and like Hermione even more. This also happens to be the mid-point of the 7 books and from here we observe that Harry gets closer to Hermione and I don't feel Harry and Ron ever mend up their friendship completely in the next two books.

What are your views on this subject?



Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 20, 2004 7:36 pm (#782 of 1957)

I guess I have to say that most teenagers are like that; they get mad over pointless things, and sometimes betray their friends. If you think about it, Harry has done this too at times to Ron also. I'm sure you could argue that Ron provoked it, but such things just happen sometimes between friends.



S.E. Jones - Jul 20, 2004 7:47 pm (#783 of 1957)
Edited Jul 20, 2004 8:50 pm

I think this shows Ron as being very normal. He suffers from lack of self-esteem and has little sense of self. It also shows how comfortable he is with Harry as his best friend. Let me elaborate. He's been over-shadowed by his brothers all his life (they all seem to be quite accomplished in some way, shape or form). He finally gets a friend of his own, and he happens to be the most famous boy in the world. Again, Ron is being overshadowed. Ron, through all that he does for Harry, all the times he stands by him, watches Harry get all the credit for it in the majorities' eyes and doesn't say anything. With his family, he sort of suffers the "mediator " syndrome that you see with middle children (even though he's not a middle child) where they don't want to rock the boat, they want to make the parents happy, they want to keep the status quo. I think it actually says something that he felt so comfortable with Harry to blow up at him. He couldn't blow up at his parents (we don't really see any acts of outright rebellion from Ron the way we do Fred and George), he can't blow up at his brothers (they mock and belittle him, further degrading his self-esteem), so who can he feel safe losing his temper with? Who will forgive him if he finally gets mad? Harry. Ron feels all those years of resentments and anger build up and he finally says something and poor Harry has to take the brunt of it. True, that's not fair to Harry, but I'd hardly say Ron was abandoning Harry. Ron was fighting with Harry as one brother would with another. He was being petty and childish, but that's often the way it goes with siblings when they fight. However, I don't think he meant the fight to go on as long as it did. There is the scene where he comes down stairs when Harry is talking to Sirius because Harry wasn't in his bed and Ron was worried about him. When Harry throws the button at him, Ron doesn't stop him as he charges by and it is a long time before he comes up to bed. Shortly after, Ron is seen in classes trying to catch Harry's eye but Harry is too mad and too anxious over the first task to care. I think this is when Ron is really regretting the fight and trying to make amends but doesn't really know how to start things off. After the first task, he's white and shaken, just as Percy was as he ran to check on Ron after the second task. Again, I'd say the fight sounded more like two brothers fighting than like a friend stabbing another in the back or abandoning the him....



Ff3girl - Jul 20, 2004 8:03 pm (#784 of 1957)

I agree. I don't think Ron's actions in GoF make him a bad person. I'm very sure that 99.99% of all people in the world have held a grudge much longer than their common sense would have told them to.

I think its a little unfair to criticize Ron for getting into a fight with his best friend. Remember, that was really the only fight they've ever been in! I say, cut the boy some slack. We all make mistakes.

"Let he who has never sinned cast the first stone."



Susurro Notities - Jul 20, 2004 8:05 pm (#785 of 1957)

Excellent Sarah. I especially like your interpretation of the scene when Ron comes down the stairs as Harry is ending his conversation with Sirius.



Sir Tornado - Jul 20, 2004 8:07 pm (#786 of 1957)

Harry has done this too at times to Ron also. --Luke.E.A.Lockhart

Luke; when has Harry ever abandoned Ron?



Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 20, 2004 8:13 pm (#787 of 1957)

I haven't read any pre-OotP books in some time, so I may be confused; but I seem to remember Harry at least contributing a little to the fight with Ron in GoF; also, he was never a great friend to Hermione - he often goes off with Ron and ignores her because of homework, and in his jerky little kid days in PS, he and Ron were very cruel to her.



Susurro Notities - Jul 20, 2004 8:15 pm (#788 of 1957)
Edited by Jul 20, 2004 9:15 pm

Harry did not abandon Ron but he did throw quite a bit of unjustified anger at Ron in OoP.



schoff - Jul 20, 2004 8:27 pm (#789 of 1957)

He was just as stubborn as Ron during that whole tiff in GF.



Weeny Owl - Jul 20, 2004 9:03 pm (#790 of 1957)

Again, I'd say the fight sounded more like two brothers fighting than like a friend stabbing another in the back or abandoning the him....

I totally agree with that, Sarah. I remember fights with my sister that were much worse, plus, the boys are only fourteen at the time. They have the typical teenage problems, but they also have other stresses from the magical world that adds to their tempers.



Hollywand - Jul 20, 2004 9:21 pm (#791 of 1957)
Edited Jul 20, 2004 10:23 pm

In response to the "when did Harry abandon Ron" question above, I have to admit that I was not very comfortable with the way Harry shoved Ron aside in the last battle of the Order of the Phoenix. I understand Ron was under a charm, but I think Rowling uses the phrase "Harry shoved Ron summarily aside". It did seem to imply that there's a changing priority of affection on Harry's part for Hermione over Ron.



Susurro Notities - Jul 20, 2004 9:40 pm (#792 of 1957)
Edited by Jul 20, 2004 10:41 pm

"And what about Ron?' said Harry fearfully, as Ron continued to giggle, still hanging off the front of Harry's robes. 'I don't know what they hit him with,' said Luna sadly,.......Harry pulled Ron's arm over his shoulder...They had a one-in-twelve chance of getting the exit right the first time- He heaved Ron toward a door; they were within a few feet of it when another door across the hall burst open and three Death Eaters sped into the hall...Stunning Spells shot across the room: Harry smashed his way though the door ahead, flung Ron unceremoniously from him, and ducked back to help Neville in with Hermione. They were all over the threshold just in time to slam the door against Bellatrix." (OoP, American, p.796)

Hollywand I believe you have overlooked the context of Harry's actions. Harry was desperately trying to save everyone - Ron only got shoved aside because Harry needed to help Neville and Hermione. The passage portrays Harry as helping Ron first then the others.



S.E. Jones - Jul 20, 2004 10:41 pm (#793 of 1957)

I have to echo Susurro here. Harry was trying to get everyone, not just Hermione, into the Brain room. He shoves Ron in (so he knows he's in), helps Neville pull Hermione in. They all just get into the room at the last moment and then Harry's concern is turned to locking all the doors. I think it shows Harry as a good leader, worried about all his troops, not one in particular.....



Hollywand - Jul 21, 2004 9:09 am (#794 of 1957)

Thanks to both of you for restoring my faith in Harry and Ron's bond of friendship, that's a much more optomistic (and accurate) reading of the text than mine.



Courtney22 - Jul 21, 2004 12:57 pm (#795 of 1957)

SE Jones---thanks for your interpretation of Ron's behavior in the OotP you made me forgive Ron finally Smile grudges aren't good to hold on to Smile



drippan - Jul 24, 2004 2:47 am (#796 of 1957)

Another thing in OotP that people forget about Harry and Ron's friendship getting a little off and Harry and Hermione getting a little closer is what Ron was doing at the time.....

He was practicing Quidditch! He even missed going to Hogsmeade because of practice. Since Harry is forbidden from ever playing and Ron still has a job to do, there was probably alot more seperation time than what we actually perceive.

Now that they both will have something to share next year, we'll see more of Ron's and Harry's friendship together.

Another thing is, but this is stretching it a bit, is with Ron and Harry playing Quidditch together, they will act more like a team away from the playing field. They will learn each other's moves and know what to expect from the other without speaking! One problem is that the Seeker is really an indepedent player and not much interaction between the other players.

drippan



Prefect Marcus - Jul 24, 2004 7:11 am (#797 of 1957)

drippan,

You are assuming that Harry will be on the team next year.

Marcus



haymoni- Jul 24, 2004 9:23 am (#798 of 1957)

He's also assuming that Ron will be on the team next year.



Sir Tornado - Jul 24, 2004 11:13 am (#799 of 1957)

You are all assuming there will be Quidditch next year.



Magika - Jul 24, 2004 12:08 pm (#800 of 1957)

Well, I HOPE that it will be Quidditch next year...
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drippan - Jul 25, 2004 2:19 pm (#801 of 1957)
Edited by S.E. Jones Jul 25, 2004 4:21 pm

# *Giving Magika a hug!**

Don't listen to Prefect Marcus, haymoni , or Tornedo......they are evil!!! Smile

Prefect Marcus: Why wouldn't Ron play? He proved himself in the last game....

haymoni : Why wouldn't Harry play? Everything Umbridge put into place will be overturned since they know she's crazy.

Tornedo: Why wouldn't there be Quidditch? As far as DD and the rest of the teachers, they still have a school to run and students to teach. DA and HRH are not the only students. I figure that there might be tighter security but they will try to keep things as normal as possible. They didn't stop Quidditch when the Dementors were at the school and Black on the loose. The only time they did is when students were being attacked or during Triwizard Tournament.

Yep, you 3 are evil and you almost made Magika cry!!

drippan

->drippan, no matter how much you mean it in jest, you can't say things like that on the Forum.<- SE Jones



Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Jul 25, 2004 5:03 pm (#802 of 1957)

Just a quick question..maybe I'm just totaly clueless, but where was there mention of one of the Weasley's beeing a seer? And could someone give me some quotes about these joke predictions?

On another note, I absolutley adore Ron and his "normalness" is one of the things that I love about him. I do think he is intelligent, but it's a different sort than Harry amd Hermione have. He has street smarts, in the sence that he knows more about the WW than the other two because he lives in it all the time.



Prefect Marcus - Jul 25, 2004 6:59 pm (#803 of 1957)

drippan - Prefect Marcus: Why wouldn't Ron play? He proved himself in the last game....

If you are going to chew someone out, kindly make sure you are chewing out the correct person. :-)

I said nothing about Ron. I said Harry might not play on the Quidditch team. Essentially, it comes down to me suspecting he is going to be too busy.

Marcus.



Sir Tornado - Jul 26, 2004 2:04 am (#804 of 1957)

You 3 are evil and you almost made Magika cry!! -- drippan

I almost laughed when I read that Drip. I can't hurt a fly unless I really want to.

And, yes, I was just trying to point out how much we rely on assumtions. That comment on post 790 was meant to be sarcastic. And, it was Marcus who suggested Harry won't be in team and haymoni suggested Ron won't be in the team. You wrote it jumbled up.



drippan - Jul 26, 2004 2:33 am (#805 of 1957)

"And, it was Marcus who suggested Harry won't be in team and haymoni suggested Ron won't be in the team. You wrote it jumbled up."

Oh no! I'm evil!!!!

Sorry about the mix up.......ME BAD!

drippan



haymoni- Jul 26, 2004 6:33 am (#806 of 1957)
Edited Jul 26, 2004 7:33 am

Actually JKR said something in her last chat regarding Ron and Quidditch.

Something like: will the new Quidditch Captain allow him to play?

and I am evil. EEEVILLLL!!! - like Mermaid Man says on "Sponge Bob".



Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Jul 26, 2004 10:45 am (#807 of 1957)

On the whole captain issue, I agree with someone, don't remember who, who said that it will be Harry as the figurehead and Ron will be behind the scenes. They work very well together in that respect

I'm still confused about all this "seer" and prediction stuff. Someone help me please.



Star Crossed - Jul 26, 2004 10:48 am (#808 of 1957)
Edited by Jul 26, 2004 11:55 am

Many believe Ron will be a Seer because if you look at all the times he jokes, it becomes true. The one I remember offhand is where Harry finds the diary of Riddle, and Ron says he remembers the name because he had to keep repolishing that trophy. When someone asks what he did, Ron jokes that maybe he killed Myrtle, because that would have done everyone a favour. Riddle actually did kill Myrtle.

EDIT: Blast, I was one away from being number 800.



drippan - Jul 26, 2004 1:28 pm (#809 of 1957)
Edited Jul 26, 2004 2:28 pm

There is also the Mirror of Erised where he see himself as Head Boy (he's already a Prefect), holding the Quidditch Cup (done that in OotP), etc.

There's more out there too.......

BTW, I'll sign Star Crossed name at the end so she will feel special about being 800!!!

Star Crossed



Star Crossed - Jul 26, 2004 3:02 pm (#810 of 1957)

Yep!

Awww! You are awesome! Does this mean I have to sign your name at the bottom so we all know you wrote a post?

drippan



Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Jul 27, 2004 7:40 am (#811 of 1957)

Thanks Star Crossed. I think it would more coincidental, though, I mean, he didn't really predict the future because Myrtle was already dead. But I see where people get the idea from. Hmmmmm.....



Chris. - Jul 27, 2004 7:43 am (#812 of 1957)
Edited Jul 27, 2004 8:44 am

Is there a list of Ron's predicitons?... If not, are we allowed to start listing them here?



Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 27, 2004 7:46 am (#813 of 1957)
Edited Jul 27, 2004 8:47 am

Hasn't Ron joked about other things and got them right. I haven't got the books in front of me to be able to say where. But then so did Harry. Look at the prediction about Bugbeak escaping.

Neither of these two were trying at the time. Could it be with divination that trying to read the signs complicates the matter. When you just go with the flow you get it right? This would allow Ron to have abilities without having to do a Trelawny. Look at all the different methods they studied. It could be that Ron just didn't find the right one.

Edit - Prongs posted while I was writing. I for one would like to see some of Ron's predictions listed within the context of the debate.



Chris. - Jul 27, 2004 7:49 am (#814 of 1957)

Well, here's the ones I can think of. Sorry, don't have quotes.

-PS/SS- Ron says Neville will play for England before Hagrid lets Dumbledore down. Well, Hagrid did get drunk and give the secret away.

My mind's went blank! Arrggghhh.. give me five minutes.



mrweasley - Jul 27, 2004 12:05 pm (#815 of 1957)
Edited by Jul 27, 2004 1:06 pm

drippan, I quite like your reference to the Mirror of Erised. It would somehow fit very well into the storyline if everything what Ron saw in the mirror actually became true. Head Boy, Quidditch-Captain and House Cup... it's rather a lot, but it doesn't sound as impossible any more as it did in the first book, does it?



TomProffitt - Jul 27, 2004 12:16 pm (#816 of 1957)

Harry and Ron invented so many predictions for their homework that didn't come true.

Ahhhh, I have to go back and reread now. Had a thought.

I had this discussion with my sister a couple of years ago, but we were discussing Ron and Harry. Perhaps Ron's were right and Harry's wrong. I don't think we saw all that many of Ron's predictions compared to Harry's.



Kieran Burke - Jul 27, 2004 12:33 pm (#817 of 1957)

Well if he is a seer it doesn't mean that everytime he makes a jokey prediction it's going to come true. I don't think he is a seer though, I think its just a sort of ironic, private joke that JKR has grown fond of because it makes the reader's wonder about Ron alot more. He's a red (pun intended Razz) herring I think.



S.E. Jones - Jul 27, 2004 1:07 pm (#818 of 1957)
Edited Jul 27, 2004 2:08 pm

I'm actually making a list of predictions throughout the books. The ones for the homework assignment in GoF go like this:

R: "Next Monday, I am likely to develop a cough, owing to unlucky conjunction of Mars and Jupiter."

(I've looked and the only references to coughing between this prediction and Ron's next prediction are from Ron: he coughs the "*cough*Lockhart*cough*" to Hermione and then when Hagrid is putting on cologne for Maxime when they're going up to the school for the Halloween feast. I'm still looking for more references though.

H: "...on Monday, I will be in danger of burns."

R: "Yeah, you will be, we're seeing the skrewts again on Monday. Okay, Tuesday, I'll... erm..."

Now we don't know if Harry knew about the Care of Mag. Creatures class on Monday or not....

H: "Lose a treasured possession."

When does Ron lose a treasured possession?

R: "Good one. Because of... erm... Mercury. Why don't you get stabbed in the back by a friend?"

H: "Yeah... cool... because Venus is in the tweth house."

Harry does get stabbed in the back by Moody/Crouch who puts his name in the Goblet. He thinks Moody is his friend.

R: "And on Wednesday, I think I'll come off worst in a fight."

Ron does come off worse in his fight with Harry. He is the one acting more childish, though there is a reason there (as I showed earlier in this thread), Harry's still on the higher ground in the fight.

H: "Aaah, I was going to have a fight. Okay, I'll lose a bet."

R: "Yeah, you'll be betting I win my fight...."

The only bet I can think of is Ludo's bet that Harry would win the Tournament outright, which he doesn't (he ties with Cedric), so Ludo loses his bet because of Harry, sort of

-------

Hr: "You seem to be drowning twice."

R: "Oh, am I? I'd better change one of them to getting trampled by a rampaging hippogriff."

Ron originally wrote down he was drowning twice. Well, he "drowned" in the second task....

Then the text reads: Harry laid down his quill too, having just finished predicting his own death by decapitation.

Well, I just hope this one doesn't come true!



TomProffitt - Jul 27, 2004 2:31 pm (#819 of 1957)

Thanks, Sarah, for the post.

I had thought that perhaps Harry was the one predicting the ones that wouldn't happen (a red herring that only one of the two would be right). I guess they aren't too far from unreasonable until the hippogrifs and the decapitation. (but what about the headless hats?)

Too much of a stretch then ( for me at least).



S.E. Jones - Jul 27, 2004 2:36 pm (#820 of 1957)

I don't think the hippogriff is important. He originally put down he'd be drowning twice, and he then later "drowns" in the second task. The hippogriff thing, to me, was just a last minute change, not the original prediction....



drippan - Jul 27, 2004 2:49 pm (#821 of 1957)

Now, I'm not one of the believers that Ron is a seer. Now, in order to prove it to me, you have to base it on some facts.

The Mirror of Erised is a good example of Ron actually seeing something. Also (I forgot which book but I think OotP) Ron says he'll only be a good keeper if his dad becomes MoM.

I think the stuff H/R "made up" for divination is just that, made up! They were trying and saying anything to get by homework. They both think divination was a joke under Trawalney and didn't give a hoot about it. I've done the same thing with classes, made stuff up just to get through it......

The shocking stuff is the nonchalant things that Ron says. When he said Tom Riddle killed Moaning Myrtle and such. He didn't know it at the time, but he was acurate.

drippan

P.S. I might have some data mixed up so don't beat me down......



Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 27, 2004 2:57 pm (#822 of 1957)

I agree with drippan completely. Ron is the "normal" guy, the guy without any supernatural powers... the guy they need sometimes to point out the blindingly obvious. The guy with common sense.



TomProffitt - Jul 27, 2004 3:19 pm (#823 of 1957)

I like the Ron as a seer idea.

drippan, I lean toward your interpretation of the homework, but wanted to research the homework (thanks again Sarah) to see if Harry was the only one off base. I think I may have to do some major research on Ron and do a big post in a day or two with my evidence.



DJ Evans - Jul 27, 2004 3:28 pm (#824 of 1957)

H: "Lose a treasured possession."

When does Ron lose a treasured possession? S.E. Jones

Just as a side note here, Ron did in a sense "lose" Scabbers!!! Don't know if that would fit in here or not, just thought I would mention it.

Later, Deb



haymoni - Jul 27, 2004 3:30 pm (#825 of 1957)

Don't you think Harry felt as if RON stabbed him in the back - forget about Barty/Moody.



S.E. Jones - Jul 27, 2004 3:35 pm (#826 of 1957)
Edited Jul 27, 2004 4:35 pm

There are many interpretations for each "prediction", which is what makes it so hard to figure out if they are clues or just red herrings, or just for amusement....

EDIT: I don't think Scabbers counts as it happened the previous year....



DJ Evans - Jul 27, 2004 4:20 pm (#827 of 1957)

I stand corrected then---I had my books mixed up there. Sorry about that!

Later, Deb



TomProffitt - Jul 27, 2004 4:37 pm (#828 of 1957)
Edited Jul 27, 2004 5:37 pm

What about Ron's divination OWL? That bit is gonna be pretty hard on the Ron as a seer theory.



S.E. Jones - Jul 27, 2004 5:03 pm (#829 of 1957)

Not really. Ron just figures he won't see anything and so doesn't even try. During their Divination class with the crystal balls, Harry at least tries to see something, though nothing comes. When he asks Ron whether he sees anything, Ron answers he sees a burnt spot on the table where someone had overturned a candle. He wasn't even looking the crystal ball or trying.....



Leila 2X4B - Jul 27, 2004 6:37 pm (#830 of 1957)

drippan, I think the quote that Ron says we'll win the cup when dad becomes MOM. But no matter, apparently Mr Weasley isn't going to be next.



Paulus Maximus - Jul 27, 2004 7:02 pm (#831 of 1957)

Ron was comparing the odds of Gryffindor winning the Quidditch cup to the odds of his dad becoming the minister of magic.

And apparently he was wrong (again). Or perhaps Gryffindor just got lucky, and Arthur won't.



S.E. Jones - Jul 27, 2004 7:40 pm (#832 of 1957)

Well there's nothing saying Arthur won't be a Minister of Magic. JKR just said he won't be the next Minister of Magic. That doesn't exclude him from taking up the title after the wizarding world goes through another Minister.



Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 28, 2004 2:20 am (#833 of 1957)

If we compare the three friends (and boy will some of this get me in trouble) we find three diferent style of ability. Harry has some that were transfered and is also the most powerful when he actually puts his mind to it. It is possible his friendship with Ron is getting in the way. But more about Harry will appear on his thread.

Hermione appears to be the best of the three but her knowledge is very much book. She relies heavily on the intellect but doesn't always think through her actions (see debate on Hermione thread).

Now for Ron. Ron is the one most comfortable with magic being the only one of the three brought up in a wizarding household. But being the youngest son he has an inferiority complex. Look at what he said on the Hogwarts Express about his brothers. This lack of self esteem causes Ron's reaction to Harry being in the tri-wizard tornament. But when Ron actually relaxes and stops trying to live up to the expectations of everyone else he pulls through. His natural talent kicks in. We see this in the chess games, the Quidditch, and even in his jokes about the future. While we know Harry is good as DADA,Hermione is brilliant at transfiguration and everything else we don't know what Ron is good at. I do hope we get to read his owls as I'm sure he's going to be suprised at how high he scored. If McGonnagel and Dumbledore see him as good enough to be a prefect then he must be one of the best in Gryffindor.

Could Ron be a seer? If he relaxed and was comfortable with himself who knows?



Sir Tornado - Jul 28, 2004 7:22 pm (#834 of 1957)

I thnk the trio are best summed up by Justin's first comment towards them in CoS;

Harry: The famous Harry Potter.

Hermione: Always at the top of everything.

Ron: Was't that your Flying Car?

That's how Trio is viewed by outsiders.



Weeny Owl - Jul 29, 2004 7:10 am (#835 of 1957)

I have to disagree with you on this, Tornedo.

That is how ONE outsider, and a Muggle-born at that, views the trio.

Other people who have grown up in the Wizarding World may have completely different views when first meeting the trio. After all, Dumbledore said that the Weasleys were one of the most prominant pure-blood families, and regardless of the Malfoys' view or the Weasleys' lack of money, many people respect them.



Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 29, 2004 7:47 am (#836 of 1957)

I agree with Tornedo's idea on how people view the trio. People don't really respect the heroes - but what fun would the story be if they did?



Weeny Owl - Jul 29, 2004 8:14 am (#837 of 1957)

Justin was only twelve years old during CoS. He's a Muggle-born wizard. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being twelves years old and Muggle-born, but that isn't a good sampling of the entire Wizarding World.

One Muggle-born twelve-year-old's opinions really can't be taken as a general statement as to how one person is viewed by an entire society, and even if they could, those are just first impressions.



Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 29, 2004 8:48 am (#838 of 1957)

I don't agree with this idea because of that dialogue - I just think that's how most people see things.



Weeny Owl - Jul 29, 2004 1:42 pm (#839 of 1957)

I really don't quite understand, Luke.

Are you saying that one twelve-year-old Muggle-born wizard's first words to someone is the same view as an entire society?

We've already seen so many differences in how various characters react to each member of the trio. On the one hand, there are the Weasleys who love Harry and Hermione, and on the other, there are the Malfoys who detest both as well as detesting the Weasleys.

I don't see how one character's opinions are a valid sampling of how each character is viewed by everyone.



Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 29, 2004 2:54 pm (#840 of 1957)

I guess all I'm saying is that's how I'd see them if I were in the story...



Sir Tornado - Jul 30, 2004 2:09 am (#841 of 1957)

Ok, Ok, I get the message. It's just that most of Hogwarts doesn't know about the trio's heroics. They know Harry's history with LV and Hermione's top grades. They think of Ron as just Harry's sidekick. I don't agree of course. But after OotP, I guess Ron'll be a quidditch star at Hogwarts.



ex-FAHgeek - Jul 30, 2004 4:42 am (#842 of 1957)

---quote--- I don't see how one character's opinions are a valid sampling of how each character is viewed by everyone. ---end quote---

The point is reputation. At this point, Justin has never spoken with any member of the trio. His views on them are based on rumor and "watching from afar." His statement isn't supposed to be the results of a poll, it's a token representation. JKR had Justin introduce himself by commenting on each of the trio for the purpose of expressing those general viewpoints aloud.

Harry is the Boy-Who-Lived. Even Lucius Malfoy is well aware of his overall fame and importance.

Hermione's brains are her forte. Once again, even the Malfoys and Snape are forced to be... if not impressed, then grudgingly admitting that it's one of her strengths.

Ron doesn't have such an overreaching "claim to fame" in Hogwarts, but some cool stuff has happened to/around him. This is the sort of thing other students will talk about "for years to come," if I'm quoting Fred and George correctly.



Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Jul 30, 2004 8:26 am (#843 of 1957)
Edited Jul 30, 2004 9:27 am

I agree with Phelim, and actually have a similar theory of my own that incorporates those ideas(or maybe it's not).

I have been into biorythms(sp?) recently and in them, there are certain areas where a person succeeds at different times of the month. There is the emotional, the intellectuall, and the physical plain. Each person has all three on different levels, but Harry, Ron and Hermione being literary characters sort of dominate in one type of plain.

Harry is obviously the emotional plain: His parents have been killed, his godfather was killed, he has to deal with being the "boy who lived" etc. Lots of emotional stress.

Hermione is the intellectual plain: She made the polyjuice potion, she's the brightest witch of her year etc.

Ron is the physical plain: He has "street" knowlege of the WW, he sacrificed himself in the chess scene, he was bitten by Norbert, he was hit with slug curse, it was his car etc. Basically he provides a lot of the physical means of doing things as well as taking many physical blows(more so than the others)

Bottom line is that I don't think Ron could be a seer because that ability falls more on the emotional and intellectual plains, which he doesn't fit into



Weeny Owl - Jul 30, 2004 9:19 am (#844 of 1957)
Edited Jul 30, 2004 10:20 am

His statement isn't supposed to be the results of a poll, it's a token representation. JKR had Justin introduce himself by commenting on each of the trio for the purpose of expressing those general viewpoints aloud.

I can see it a bit more easily when it's stated this way.



Phelim Mcintyre - Jul 31, 2004 2:11 am (#845 of 1957)

As a psychologist, I have problems with bio-rythmns. Too cut and dries.

As to Justin's comments. Firstly he is one person. Secondly he is twelve or just possibly thirteen (depending when he was born) and he is from a Muggle family. Also, Justin is male.

Hermione has a reputation in school for being the swot, the bright one. Harry has the task of living up to the fact that he survived Voldemort's curse. The comment about Ron is exactly the type of thing I would expect a lad of that age to say. It is no different from that of Dean, Seamus and Neville the night before.



schoff - Jul 31, 2004 9:59 am (#846 of 1957)

Personally, I think the trio are viewed with respect, even if it is grudgingly given. Not even the Slytherins attack Ron and Hermione unless they are with Harry. Harry is the one everyone attacks, and Ron and Hermione are always secondary targets. The only exception to this was the "Weasley is Our King" which Ron fully earned (but not deserved) judging by his abysmal Quidditch performance in front of the entire school.

As to the outside WW, I highly doubt Ron and Hermione are even known. It's Harry everyone focuses on.



Sir Tornado - Jul 31, 2004 10:47 am (#847 of 1957)

As to the outside WW, I highly doubt Ron and Hermione are even known. -- schoff.

I disagree there. I bet many people know Hermione. Remember Rita Skeeter's article? And the hate mail?



schoff - Jul 31, 2004 10:57 am (#848 of 1957)

For like, a second. I doubt it even brought her as much as 15 minutes worth of fame.

Ron's only been written about in connection with his family, and a side-story as well. Neither have the fame, notoriety, or long-lasting attention that Harry has.



TomProffitt - Jul 31, 2004 11:00 am (#849 of 1957)

Even though they had never met (and so far as we know Draco has no older siblings) Draco was able to identify Ron as a Weasley from the beginning. I believe the wizarding world is much smaller than many posting her suspect. If the WW doesn't know Ron, they likely know of the Weasleys.



Sir Tornado - Jul 31, 2004 11:08 am (#850 of 1957)

Yeah; Ron has appeared in the Prophet once hasn't he? In PoA.
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Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Jul 31, 2004 11:12 am (#851 of 1957)

I'm going to be a psychologist(or somthing similar) as well Phelim. The theory's very dodgy. It was just a thought.

I think that Ron and Hermione are known well enough. I mean most of the students know them as Harry's best friends, and they know Hermione as "the smartest witch in her year" and they know Ron as a Weasley. I don't think they have a problem being known that way



Sir Tornado - Jul 31, 2004 11:18 am (#852 of 1957)
Edited Jul 31, 2004 12:20 pm

I'm going to be a psychologist(or somthing similar) as well Phelim. The theory's very dodgy. It was just a thought. -- Matilda Jones.

Matilda... did you consider Justin's comments a theory? I told it just as a well a trivia. I am sorry that the post caused such a storm.



Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Jul 31, 2004 11:44 am (#853 of 1957)

Oh, no Tornedo. I was talking about my thoery there. I don't know how I feel about Justin's comments



Sir Tornado - Aug 1, 2004 2:47 am (#854 of 1957)

Ok, so, How d'you guys think Ron'll react after hearing about the prophesy?



Kasse - Aug 1, 2004 5:52 am (#855 of 1957)

Ron being Ron will worry, I am sure he will feel helpless because there really is not anything that he can do ecexpt support Harry - don't you think?



tracie1976 - Aug 1, 2004 5:54 am (#856 of 1957)

I don't think Harry will tell Ron about the prophecy but if Harry does tell, Ron will distance himself from Harry.



Star Crossed - Aug 1, 2004 8:48 am (#857 of 1957)

Why wouldn't Harry tell Ron about the prophecy, and why would Ron distance himself?



TomProffitt - Aug 1, 2004 8:56 am (#858 of 1957)

Harry doesn't want to make his friends targets for He Who Must Not Be Named. He knows that knowledge of the prophecy is dangerous, it is why he was lured to the DoM in OP.

Secondly, Harry is afraid of the concept of himself as a murderer.

I don't think Ron or any of Harry's friends will view Harry in that light, but it is in Harry's character to think that they will.



tracie1976 - Aug 1, 2004 9:16 am (#859 of 1957)

Why wouldn't Harry tell Ron about the prophecy, and why would Ron distance himself?

Actually, it comes from the scene in PoA, where Hermione approaches Harry. We have Ron off in the distance as Hermione asks Harry what was the matter after finding out Sirius was their friend.

Plus Ron distanced himself from Harry when Harry became a school champion for the Tri-Wizard tournament. Harry got to be in it and Ron got mad at Harry for "entering" the tournament. Now we have the prophecy, Harry will get to become famous all over again by hopefully defeating Voldemort. Here comes Ron's jealousy of Harry into play again. Ron's attitude may just be "Harry gets his fame and glory again and I get nothing."



Star Crossed - Aug 1, 2004 9:24 am (#860 of 1957)

If this is in the book, could you please write out what happens? I don't remember.

As for the TWT, this is completely different. Ron thought Harry entered just to get the gold and become champion, and he wouldn't even let his best mate in on the 'joke'. I don't think Ron will act the same way. This is a kill or be killed situation, the TWT was supposed to be a way to honour your school. Didn't turn out to be, but that's how it was supposed to go. The two situations are completely different.



Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Aug 1, 2004 9:27 am (#861 of 1957)

I think that Ron has already begun to feel like Harry is a different person than how he used to be, but he feels a duty as "best friend" to stick by his side.

I think that when he finds out about the prophesy he will be very scared but will stick by Harry anyway because he's the "best friend"



tracie1976 - Aug 1, 2004 9:34 am (#862 of 1957)

I think that when he finds out about the prophesy he will be very scared but will stick by Harry anyway because he's the "best friend"

Shouldn't have Ron been scared for Harry during the TWT? Ron so called "best friend" status was less important to Ron and he went off along with the rest of the school saying Harry entered the tournament himself. If he was a good "best friend" Ron would have ignored the school and stuck by Harry instead of waiting until the end of the first task to apologize and act like nothing happened.



Eponine - Aug 1, 2004 11:21 am (#863 of 1957)

Didn't DD say something about how precautions had been taken to ensure the champions' safety? I think that Ron was just being a 14 year old boy, not necessarily the most mature people in the world.

As for the prophecy, I think that once Harry tells Ron and Hermione, it will take a while for it to sink in for them as well. It is concerning their best friend, after all. Initially, Ron might pull away, but he will support Harry in any way he can.



Kasse - Aug 1, 2004 11:23 am (#864 of 1957)

I agree with Matilda - Ron will be scared for himself, Hermione and Harry but he will DEFINATELY stick by him.

Best friends fight it is a part of growing up, yes Ron was jealous during the TWT but that is because he thought Harry was not being honest. That is in the past, they are over that



Weeny Owl - Aug 1, 2004 11:43 am (#865 of 1957)

Best friends fight it is a part of growing up, yes Ron was jealous during the TWT but that is because he thought Harry was not being honest. That is in the past, they are over that

After having been around numerous fourteen-year-olds, I agree totally with that.

Friends of all ages have disagreements. The important thing is whether or not the friendship can withstand the disagreement. Ron and Harry's friendship has withstood a great deal.

Ron stood by Harry through all of OotP, and after his encounter with the brains, he has more of a reason to dislike Harry than he ever had before. His sister was hurt, their friends were hurt, but at the end of OotP, Ron is still by Harry's side. THAT is friendship.



S.E. Jones - Aug 1, 2004 11:45 am (#866 of 1957)

Actually, it comes from the scene in PoA, where Hermione approaches Harry. We have Ron off in the distance as Hermione asks Harry what was the matter after finding out Sirius was their friend.

I think this might just be a movie moment, not acutally canon.

Harry got to be in it and Ron got mad at Harry for "entering" the tournament.

I don't think this is why Ron got mad at Harry at all. I've already explained this in my post #774 so I won't go into it again.

Shouldn't have Ron been scared for Harry during the TWT?

He was. When he realized that the tournament was actually dangerous (despite all the restrictions and safeguards that had recently been put in place), he showed up with Hermione at the hospital tent, just as white and shaken as her, and just as worried about Harry.

I think Ron will be, first and foremost, worried about his best friend upon hearing the Prophecy. He knows that Harry is a target but I think this will really drive the point home for both him and Hermione.



The One - Aug 1, 2004 12:33 pm (#867 of 1957)

Ron thought Harry entered just to get the gold and become champion, and he wouldn't even let his best mate in on the 'joke'.

If we are to believe Hermione, he did not really believe that. That was just an excuse for being angry; the real reason was pent-up jealousy of Harry’s status as a celebrity, while Ron remains a “nobody”. (Even if he did receive 50 points for defeating the chess board in PS and a “Special award for services to the school” in CoS.

Ron’s insecurity and inferiority complexes; resulting from being poor and from being overshadowed by all his brilliant brothers have been shown since book 1, in addition he is also overshadowed by his best male friend, “The boy who lived”, and in a ever increasing degree by his best female friend. I suspect that he also is starting to feel overshadowed by his kid sister, but that remains to be seen. All this sums up to that inferiority complexes and jealousy is a very integral part of Ron’s personality, and if the issues causing it is not resolved those traits may very well surface again.

There is nothing wrong with Ron really, he is just a very ordinary young man with little money and surrounded by extraordinary friends and extraordinary siblings, and he hates it.



the judderman - Aug 1, 2004 3:14 pm (#868 of 1957)

A lot of people seem to feel very negative about Ron which surprises me as I read him to be a very human and likable character, and have entirely forgiven him for his mistakes in GoF, just as Harry has done.

Ron tried several times during his and Harry's GoF estrangement to make up, smiling at him and catching his eye in one of the lessons, and even more importantly, coming down to check on him (and interrupting his talk with Sirius). This incident shows that Ron is worried about Harry, despite their quarrel, and concerned enough to come looking for him, perhaps hoping to apologise then. Also, significant to me, is that Ron doesnt snap back or try and start a fight, he takes Harry's temper and rather unkind comment without argument knowing that he (ron) is basically in the wrong, but unable to broach the subject when Harry is, to him, so inexplicably angry. It also seems to me that by including the, "in his too-small pjamers," JK is encouraging the reader to feel sorry for Ron, endearing him to us and reminding us that Ron has reasons for his poor behaviour, which we may not approve of but can understand. The final thing of significance in this scene is that Ron does not come up to bed until much later. This clearly indicates to me that Ron has been downstairs feeling wretched about himself for treating Harry so badly, perhaps in tears (though he may be too much of a guy for that.) over what he realises is a stupid fight that he wants to end.

Also, Hermione's comment that Ron doesnt really think harry put his name in doesnt suggest to me that Ron is lying about his motives as some people may feel. To me this is an example of Hermione's insight (think Cho in OotP emotinal teaspoon scene) and merely shows that Ron and Harrys fight is of a petty nature which dragged out due to stubborness.

Ron of course is luckier then Harry, he has a loving family, and surely noone, including Ron himself, would swap that for fame or the 'opportunity' of fighting Voldemort. One thing which makes Ron's jealousy more understandable to me is that Ron shares his family with Harry, whereas Harry's fame further diminishes Ron's own social standing. Harry could not grudge Ron for repeatedly inviting him to his home, taking him to the world cup, and allowing him to become a practically adopted Weasley. This is contrasted by Harry's continual position of being alone in the limelight.

I think that Ron and Harry are loyal and commited friends who have been through a hell of a lot together. It is normal for people to feel jealousy, and it is normal for friends to argue. What matters to me is that Ron admitted he was wrong, and his apology was accepted. If Harry can forgive, i see no reason for the reader to hold a grudge.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 1, 2004 3:34 pm (#869 of 1957)

Bravo!, very well said! Can you tell I feel the same way about Ron?



drippan - Aug 1, 2004 3:48 pm (#870 of 1957)

the judderman,

I said the same thing on the "ship to 'ship" thread.

Ron has probably had the same type fights with his brothers. They argue, don't speak for a while, then make up.

I can especially see this happening more with Percy and the twins.

IMO, Ron has an excellent case against Harry. Harry took them to the MoM and got them all hurt including his only sister, Ginny. Harry made the choice of going vice thinking of another option.

I've been asking if Harry will apologize for his mistake? He's the one who left Occlemancy training. He's the one who didn't let his friends know what was going on.

Ron was man enough once he saw he was wrong after the dragon challenge in the TWT.

drippan



Weeny Owl - Aug 1, 2004 3:51 pm (#871 of 1957)

That is an exceptional analysis, judderman.

I just adore Ron, and while he has his ups and downs, who doesn't, in these books or in real life?

All of us have done things we know are wrong, things we've regretted, and there have been times, I'm sure, when we know we haven't behaved in the best way.

Through all of the trials and tribulations Ron and Harry have gone through, they come out friends regardless of the circumstances.

You're right... Ron has shared his family with Harry, and that is something that is truly meaningful.

I agree... if Harry accepts Ron's apology, why can't we? I was never angry with him, anyway. He's a sweetie who tries his best and doesn't always succeed, but that only makes him more human.



Magika - Aug 1, 2004 4:05 pm (#872 of 1957)

Awww... don't we just love Ron?

I totally agree with all that has been said resently: why shouldn't we forgive Ron when Harry does? At times I think Harry is being selfish and stubborn, but Ron puts up with it. All over, he's a great friend. I think it's hard living in the shadow of your best friend. After all, Harry's shadow is pretty...uh... dark (means: difficult to come out of).

As I've said before on this thread: Ron is normal. He's the most realistic character, I think. He's the books' link to reality, although he's a wizard grown up in Ottery St. Catchpole.

-Si-



S.E. Jones - Aug 1, 2004 9:58 pm (#873 of 1957)

Okay, I'm going to say something on the 'Ron as a Seer' theory. Go ahead and skip if you don't want to read it.

As everyone has pointed out, Ron is the normal guy surrounded by extraordinary fellows, they guy who connects us to reality, the guy who hates being overshadowed by everyone around him. His jealousies and lack of self-esteem build a very realistic and endearing person, but I also think these traits serve a purpose in the story. To really develop his character and to make the story come full circle, I think these traits either have to be resolved or acted on. As I don't believe Ron will act on his jealousies to betray Harry, I will go with the former. How might this be accomplished? Well, if Ron were to recieve an ability that his talented brothers didn't have, that the brainy Hermione didn't have, that 'The Boy Who Lived' didn't have, he would find himself quite unique, standing apart from them, out of their shadows. However, I don't think this would be a good thing. We are shown how much Ron detests Divination. He absolutely loathes it. I think it would be a gift he would hate and would, eventually, come to regret having. (You know that old saying, "be careful what you wish for, you just might get it"?) I think he would eventually see that he liked being the guy in the shadows, the normal one. I think the story would resolve with him losing the ability somehow and him happily stepping back into his place alongside Harry. If the scenario of Ron ever becoming a seer were to come about, that's how I see it progressing.

Just my two knuts on the matter....



schoff - Aug 1, 2004 10:16 pm (#874 of 1957)

If Ron is a seer--I can see him taking over Trelawney's role as the one who gives the unconscious Prophecies, especially if Trelawney dies and a third prophecy is needed (for how to defeat "the other").



Ff3girl - Aug 1, 2004 10:47 pm (#875 of 1957)

Yes, I can picture him going into a trance-like state now...

"When two Neptunes appear, it means a midget in glasses is being born, Harry."

I don't really think Ron is a seer. I always thought that his jokes coming true was more of a way to steer us clear of the right direction of the story. At least until we figured out JKR's secret formula... *evil chuckle*



TomProffitt - Aug 2, 2004 4:12 am (#876 of 1957)
Edited Aug 2, 2004 5:12 am

Sarah, I'm researching the Ron as Seer bit.

After two books it doesn't look too good (in my opinion) for Ron to have the sight. You've got to reallllly stretch the definition of seer or prophecy to give the theory any credit.

I'll keep researching, but I'm leaning pretty heavily towards not right now.



The One - Aug 2, 2004 9:26 am (#877 of 1957)
Edited Aug 2, 2004 10:34 am

It also seems to me that by including the, "in his too-small pjamers," JK is encouraging the reader to feel sorry for Ron, endearing him to us and reminding us that Ron has reasons for his poor behavior, which we may not approve of but can understand.

One thing which makes Ron's jealousy more understandable to me is that Ron shares his family with Harry, whereas Harry's fame further diminishes Ron's own social standing.

I do not quit understand this. I thought that according to you the reason for the fight was that Ron believed Harry to have betrayed him, not Ron’s insecurity, inferiority complexes and/or jealousy? But here you seem to agree with me (and Hermione) that real issues behind the fight were to be found within Ron himself, and not by any perceived or real bad actions performed by Harry?

As shown by the Mirror of Erised in PS, Ron’s deepest desire is to excel, but the fact is that almost everyone close to him does so, but he himself does not. This hits him hard, and that is quit understandable.

Yes, a perfect Harry would approach Ron to try to make up, if Harry was perfect he would be able to compensate for Ron’s shortcomings. Hermione asks him to do so several times. But Harry is not perfect, and Harry is under a strain during their fight that are far worse then anything normal teenage insecurities would cause Ron to feel. He is facing an immensely dangerous task he never asked for, almost the entire school has turned his back to him and on the top of it his best friend have abandoned him, calling him a liar for reasons Ron does not really believe himself. And you really expect him to muster the strength to reach out to Ron under such circumstances?

When Ron finally starts to show signs that he want to reconcile, the First Task is approaching, and Harry’s strain are worse than ever. When Ron interrupts his talk with Sirius Harry is for the first time ever in his entire life able to talk with a father figure about his problems, problems that would crush any normal teenager completely. But he is interrupted. Ron was in no way to blame for that, really, but do you really expect Harry to be able to see reason at that point? As for Ron trying to catch Harry's eyes: Do you really blame Harry for not being in his most diplomatic mode 24 hours before he is going to face the dragon, with Trelawney predicting his premature death with more confidence than ever before?

Before thing got really tense Ron had three chances to try to make up: after their fight with Snape, when Ron was delivering the message about the detentions and during the detentions themselves. But he pulled away all three times. Of course, Harry could have followed him, but if you really do not think that under these circumstances it would be far easier for Ron to try to make up than for Harry, then you do not have very high expectations of the boy.

As for whether we forgive Ron or not. This is really not about forgiveness or not, my post was triggered by a discussion whether a new situation with Harry in the limelight might trigger a new fight. And as the fight was triggered entirely by issues within in Ron himself, issues we do not really know have been resolved, that may very well happen.



Weeny Owl - Aug 2, 2004 9:39 am (#878 of 1957)
Edited Aug 2, 2004 10:40 am

The One:

What you're saying is perfectly understandable if we weren't talking about fourteen-year-olds.

Ron and Harry both made mistakes after the announcement of the Tri-Wizard Tournament champions. Ron's mistakes aren't any greater than Harry's or any less forgivable.

What all of that shows is that the two really are best friends and that when push comes to shove, Ron will be there for Harry. He definitely showed that during all of OotP, and in the next book I have no doubt he'll show it even more. He'll be two years older, after all, and all of the kids are growing up - yes, even Ron.

Judging Ron on one situation isn't a true picture of him. Take out that one situation and you have someone who has stood by Harry and supported him for five years, even when some of Harry's decisions weren't the best. One situation compared to five years' worth of situations? It's a given in my opinion that Ron has done nothing that can't be forgiven, and even Harry agrees.



The One - Aug 2, 2004 9:50 am (#879 of 1957)
Edited Aug 2, 2004 10:53 am

What you're saying is perfectly understandable if we weren't talking about fourteen-year-olds.

I'm sorry, but I do not buy that. Even for 14 years old some things are more difficult than other things. By any reasonable way of seeing it, it would be possible, albeit perhaps very hard for Ron to reach out, but absolutely unrealistic to expect Harry to do so. Even if I do agree that Ron's behavior is understandable, comparing his behavior to Harry's behavior makes no sense whatsoever for me.

And as I tried to point out, predicting future behavior does not really have anything to do with forgiving.



Weeny Owl - Aug 2, 2004 10:01 am (#880 of 1957)

I'm not talking about predicting future behavior. I'm comparing one situation to all the years they've known each other. If Harry doesn't have a problem forgiving his best friend, why should anyone else? Harry wants his best friend back and Ron wants his best friend back. They're fine with it, so why can't we be fine with it as well?

I also think age definitely does have a bearing on the situation. Ron and Harry can't be expected to act rationally and reasonably when they're just fourteen. I don't know about laws in all parts of the United Kingdom, but I doubt if fourteen-year-olds are considered adults at any time. JKR has stated that witches and wizards are of age at seventeen... three years to go before Ron and Harry are even considered of age, much less adults.

Most teens, at least the ones I've encountered, take a lot of things very seriously that someone older would look at and not consider significant at all. I've thought about things I said and did at that age, and I'll just shake my head and wonder why I was such an idiot.

These children are growing up during these books, and what they might react to at fourteen may not be what they react to at seventeen.



Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 2, 2004 10:09 am (#881 of 1957)

Teenagers are, actually, capable of being just as rational as adults. Once you are about sixteen, at least, you can usually be tried in an adult court, and often you can before then. Many countries end high school at sixteen. The reason teenagers have a reputation for being immature and rebellious is because they are less centered on the current system upon which everything is based. So they are seen as immature rebels, when they are often right.



the judderman - Aug 2, 2004 10:28 am (#882 of 1957)

I think that when Ron heard Harry's name anounced in the great hall, he thought that his best friend had managed to cheat the system and was annoyed about this, and became more annoyed when he felt Harry was lying to him and leaving him out of the joke after their conversation in the dormitary that night. However, I think that it is clear to the reader, and Hermione, and it would be to Ron himself if he was grown-up enough to think about it, that the real root cause of his anger is his deep-seated feelings of inaqequacy. Harry is not responsible for Ron's insecurities, but neither really is Ron. There is no doubt that he has always been overshadowed by his brothers and his best friend, and he has always put up with it, and like Hermione says, the TWT is just one time too many, and it causes him to snap. I think that once Ron had slept on it, and spoken to Hermione, he realised that Harry hadnt done it deliberately, realised that he (Ron) was in the wrong and felt stupid and angry with himself for being childish and upseting Harry and prolonged the fight out of shame and embarrassment.

Ron is in the wrong with this situation, I wasnt trying to blame Harry, or criticising him for not making the move to end the argument. I was just pointing out situations where Ron tried to apologise, as evidence that he isnt the terrible friend some people think.



Weeny Owl - Aug 2, 2004 10:29 am (#883 of 1957)

Some teens can be as rational as adults, but at fourteen, most are not. Neither Ron nor Harry were thinking logically about the Tri-Wizard Tourament, but reacting emotionally.

But it doesn't really matter whether or not they were rational. They're happy having their friendship back and that's all that matters.



Chris. - Aug 2, 2004 10:41 am (#884 of 1957)

I agree with Weeny Owl.

Ron never betrayed Harry. They had an argument which led to the pair of them being irrational. They made up, and that's that.



The One - Aug 2, 2004 11:04 am (#885 of 1957)

Ron never betrayed Harry. They had an argument which led to the pair of them being irrational. They made up, and that's that.

No! Ron did betray Harry. There were reasons, reasons that in no way was Harry's fault, and yes, they did make up afterwards, but Ron did betray Harry!

They have been friends for 3 1/2 year before this, they have been friends for 1 1/2 year afterwards, but at that very moment that Harry needed him most, Ron was not there. Any attempt to pretend that that the two boys was more or less equal at fault at this situation is to me simply a sign that you does not really take Ron seriously.

This situation does not define Ron's personality, but it is one significant incident in the boys' life, and if we are to totally ignore it we do not get a complete picture of who Ron is. He may and will mature of course, but in OotP he still is a very insecure boy.

And actually, it is not as simple as "That is that". Before the Yule Ball Ron is resentful that the girl wants to go for Harry and not for him, but manges to "keep his bitterness at a minimum." After the Yule Brawl Harry is afraid to speak his mind, and in OotP Ron is "alarmed to be asked to give an opinion."

The fight actually seems to have left wounds that is not entirely healed.



Chris. - Aug 2, 2004 11:10 am (#886 of 1957)

Betray is a strong word, and has to be used in the right context. Yes, Ron was not there when Harry needed him but Ron put his own disloyalty behind him and offered Harry the hand of friendship. Harry does not doubt Ron being his best-friend, so neither should we.

PS. Don't mean to be rude, but is your dislike of Ron because of your support to the H/Hr 'ship, The One?



Kasse - Aug 2, 2004 11:22 am (#887 of 1957)

I have to say that yes Ron was not there at a time when Harry needed him but I too think betray is ot the correct word for it. As i have said before friends fight and this tests friendships and their friendship passed the test.

..and in OotP Ron is "alarmed to be asked to give an opinion." - The One

I thought that Ron was alarmed to be asked to give an opinion because it was Hermione asking his oppinion andshe harldly ever does that, infact is this not the point where Harry compares them to Mr and Mrs Wheesly? I do not think his alarm had anything to do with what happened in GOF.



tracie1976 - Aug 2, 2004 11:26 am (#888 of 1957)

I'm a H/Hr shipper and I really don't like Ron but it has nothing to do with my ship. Ron should have trusted Harry enough after four years of friendship to believe Harry did not put his name in for the TWT. That, I believe, is bratayal. Ron should have known better.



Weeny Owl - Aug 2, 2004 11:28 am (#889 of 1957)

I think it's obvious that Harry truly cherishes his friendship with Ron; after all, Ron was what Harry would have missed most in the second task.

Relationships are in a constant state of flux, and the fact that Ron was willing to go with Harry to the Department of Mysteries shows that he also cherishes their friendship.



The One - Aug 2, 2004 11:30 am (#890 of 1957)

PS. Don't mean to be rude, but is your dislike of Ron because of your support to the H/Hr 'ship, The One?

Not really. As I have already stated on the ship/ship thread, it is more the other way around.

But I does not really dislike Ron that much, it is more that I feel that many R/Hr shippers tend to make Ron somewhat better than he is. (As some R/Hr shippers accuse us to do with Hermione and sometimes Harry.)

But does my likes and dislike really have that much to do with it? Do you read the arguments from a stand: "As he does not love Ron as much as I do, we do not need to take his arguments seriously?"

Ron has his issues, serious issues, and even if those issues is quite normal for a 14 year old of his background, I see signs that in the extraordinary situation the kids are entering those issues may create serious problems. Ron may be a loose canon. As is Harry, but as everyone is focusing on him, there is hopefully limited damage he may do. (But we cannot be sure, Harry was tricked into the trap that killed Sirius.)



Chris. - Aug 2, 2004 11:33 am (#891 of 1957)

Ron had/has issues, but doesn't every 14-year-old?

As Weeny Owl said, Ron went to the DoM, even though he doubted the authenticity of Harry's dream. He cherishes Harry's friendship with him and he knows that Harry needs people around him.



The One - Aug 2, 2004 12:07 pm (#892 of 1957)

Ron had/has issues, but doesn't every 14-year-old?

Of course, did I say otherwise? "quite normal for a 14 year old of his background"

But for each and one of us, our issues is part of who we are. We cannot discard them when discussing who a character is.

And I do not expect Ron to betray Harry to Voldemort or anything like that. I do not even expect a new major fight. But I do fear that in some situation his wish to prove himself may result in Ron doing something stupid, resulting e.g. in Ron getting killed or captured. Time will show.



RowanRising - Aug 2, 2004 12:14 pm (#893 of 1957)

Personally, I think it's UNnatural for friends that spend that much time together and are that devoted to one another NOT to fight. That's what friends do occasionally. I think words like "betrayal" are a bit much. JRK is trying to make these characters believable- and 4 years without ONE single fight is a laughable stretch indeed.



drippan - Aug 2, 2004 2:35 pm (#894 of 1957)

Hey everyone!!

Just want to thank Tornedo for her post over in "'ship to 'ship" thread about her not liking Ron as much! I asked her to post over here and it has really brought up alot of good stuff!!

I have to agree with whoever said that after 3 years, it would be unbelieveable that 2 friends don't have a "fall out".

I don't know if I would use the word "betray" to discribe Ron's actions. More of an "abandonment". He left Harry and Hermione to get through the TWT.

I thought JKR described extactly why Ron acted the way he did. Hermione was super for trying to get the 2 friends back together.

We all know Ron has personal problems that comes to him from a large family. That of being poor and not being recognized. Just like Harry has problems with affairs of the heart.

IMO, Ron needs a pick me up like Harry had in OotP to run DA. He needs to see all the great things he's done. Here's a kid who played the best game of chess Hogwart's has ever seen, got a special service award, fought with Harry to get Sirius in PoA, and finally, in OotP, he became a great Quidditch player and went with Harry to the DoM.

Here's something to ponder. When Ron was at his highest point (the Quidditch match), Harry and Hermione spoiled it by saying:

1) They didn't see it.

2) They told him about Grump.

His best friends didn't see him at his best. And then told him really messed up news.

Oh well, keep up the debate!

drippan



TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 2, 2004 2:39 pm (#895 of 1957)

Good point drippan, that had to be a major blow to Ron's ego.



TomProffitt - Aug 2, 2004 2:45 pm (#896 of 1957)

Think about what Ron saw in the Mirror of Erised. Head Boy, Quidditch Captain, Quidditch Cup, House Cup. Imagine Ron gets all of those things in book 7. Now imagine his best friend single handedly brings about the end of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named in the same book.

Ron gets everything he wants (and the girl) and is still over-shadowed by his best friend.

I think that is Ron's lot in life.



The One - Aug 2, 2004 2:53 pm (#897 of 1957)

Ron gets everything he wants (and the girl) and is still over-shadowed by his best friend.

I think that is Ron's lot in life.

It is never easy to be the hero's best friend!



drippan - Aug 2, 2004 2:55 pm (#898 of 1957)

"Ron gets everything he wants (and the girl) and is still over-shadowed by his best friend."

And the difference is that Ron is still a winner and he must come to face that he is no more or no less than Harry.

Harry has no choice but to face Voldemort. Ron does have a choice to either join and help Harry or to run off in the opposite direction. He will realize that he is just as good but that it is Harry's destiny, not his.

drippan



Magika - Aug 2, 2004 3:16 pm (#899 of 1957)

RowanRising, I very much agree with you about it being almost unatural NOT to have a fight now and then when you've been friends for 4 years. I mean, everyone needs a blow-out sometimes. I can't believe people are actually accusing Ron of betraying Harry - when I re-read the books for the hundred time, I'm getting more and more annoyed by Harry, who doesn't have the guts to ask Ron WHY he is mad at him. Instead they walk around, being stubborn and lonely, both of them.

Of course it was a stupid thing to do for Ron, accusing Harry for lying etc, but betrayal?? To me, it seems like a perfectly normal 14-yearolds fight. Both parts being stubborn, fighting over a thing which is pretty stupid in the first place.

-Si-



timrew - Aug 2, 2004 3:31 pm (#900 of 1957)

Ron's poverty is not as acute as he thinks. Ron's friendship with Harry is not as fragile as he thinks. He's just a stupid, stubborn, 14 year old kid, who thinks that Harry is overshadowing him - which he is.

But he can't accept (yet), that Harry is the more famous of the two.

Let him grow up and he'll get there.
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drippan - Aug 2, 2004 4:23 pm (#901 of 1957)

"But he can't accept (yet), that Harry is the more famous of the two."

I guarentee that Ron has heard Harry Potter's name since birth. He knows Harry is famous and will have to learn to accept it.

Especially once he hears the prophecy! He'll know Harry didn't choose his life.....

Maybe Ron will help Harry out by building a spaceship and send Harry to, where else, Uranus!!

drippan



TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 2, 2004 4:35 pm (#902 of 1957)

Hello SPEW!, thank you drippan!



Magika - Aug 2, 2004 4:50 pm (#903 of 1957)

TimRew - LOL! Aiming straight for the heart. I agree to some point, Ron will certainly grow up, but I don't think he's stupid.

God, I'm so tired I can't write English. I keep writing Norwegian words... Night!



Sir Tornado - Aug 2, 2004 8:01 pm (#904 of 1957)

Just want to thank Tornedo for her post over in "'ship to 'ship" thread about her not liking Ron as much! -- drippan

drippan; you used the wrong pronoun. It's "him", not "her"

Now as far as Ron is concerned; Weeny said that Ron's behaviour in GoF was OK for a 14-year old. I've got news for you Weeny; it's NOT. When I read GoF; I was 12. Even then, I thought Ron's behaviour was out of order. Ron knew Harry hadn't asked for it. Still he turned his back on Harry when he had to compete it the Tri-Wizard against three 17 year old wizards. And did Ron forget for a second that it was Harry who had saved Ginny's, his sister's life two years previously? He abandoned Harry when Harry needed him the most. drippan, aren't you a Marine? How would you have reacted had a fellow marined done in some battle? Wouldn't he be court marshalled? Wouldn't that be considered Betrayal?



Weeny Owl - Aug 2, 2004 8:59 pm (#905 of 1957)
Edited Aug 2, 2004 10:07 pm

Weeny said that Ron's behaviour in GoF was OK for a 14-year old. I've got news for you Weeny; it's NOT.

Well, actually, it is okay for a fourteen-year-old. You may be the exception, but considering I've lived with six fourteen-year-olds at various times of my adult life, Ron's behavior isn't the least bit unusual. Teens disagree, they fight, they argue, they stomp around, they slam doors, they call each other names... annoying, but not the least bit out of the ordinary. A strong friendship weathers the vicissitudes that life throws its way, and Ron and Harry have proven that their friendship is strong.

As far as Marines go, my father was one, and served in two wars. He wouldn't see anything wrong with Ron's behavior either, and would be totally appalled and extremely offended that the suggestion of a court-martial could possibly be considered for anything remotely similar to a tournament at a children's school.

It doesn't matter if Harry saved Ginny or not because Ginny nearly got Harry (and quite a few others) killed. Not through any fault of her own, perhaps, but Arthur was certainly astonished that she had listened to a diary.

As for Ron, he was the one, after all, who sacrificed himself so that Harry could get to the Philosopher's Stone. That should count for quite a bit if one is comparing what each has done for the other.

But as has been said before, it isn't your opinion or my opinion that matters... it's Harry's opinion, and he's happy forgiving Ron.



Sir Tornado - Aug 2, 2004 9:25 pm (#906 of 1957)
Edited Aug 2, 2004 10:30 pm

Teens disagree, they fight, they argue, they stomp around, they slam doors, they call each other names... annoying, but not the least bit out of the ordinary. -- Weeny Owl

Right, there's nothing wrong with that. But you must see that what Ron did was much more serious than arguing, or stomping around or even calling Harry names. He knew Harry didn't enter the Tri-Wizard himself. He knew many previous contenders have died in the tasks. He also knew Harry was being hated everywhere in the school. If Ron is a faithfull friend as many of his Fan's say he is; why didn't he stick up for Harry? What did he do on the weekend before the First task? Hanging out with the Twins in Hogsmeade? May be Laughing? Did he ever think how much misery he has inflicted upon Harry? He never did; until it was too late.

He wouldn't see anything wrong with Ron's behavior either, and would be totally appalled and extremely offended that the suggestion of a court-martial could possibly be considered for anything remotely similar to a tournament at a children's school. -- Weeny Owl.

Weeny, I did not suggest Ron be court Marshalled. I just said that is what would've happened had Ron been a soldier on duty. And I don't think you get the seriousness regarding the Tri-Wizard tournament. Had Harry died during the First Task; he would've dying knowing that his best friend had called him a liar. How's That?

As for Ron, he was the one, after all, who sacrificed himself so that Harry could get to the Philosopher's Stone. --Weeny Owl.

Correction. Ron DID NOT scarifice himself so that Harry could get to the Philosopher's stone. He did it to win the game and to stop Snape. He didn't do it for Harry. He did it for their mission. And if you've just forgotten, Harry nearly died completing that mission.

But as has been said before, it isn't your opinion or my opinion that matters.... -- Weeny Owl.

Doesn't our opinion matter? I thought that is for what this Forum is for. "To express our opinion on Harry Potter Series". Correct me if I'm mistaken.



Weeny Owl - Aug 2, 2004 9:53 pm (#907 of 1957)

But you must see that what Ron did was much more serious than arguing, or stomping around or even calling Harry names. He knew Harry didn't enter the Tri-Wizard himself. He knew many previous contenders have died in the tasks.

No, actually, I don't see that what Ron did was any more serious. The rules changed, as everyone was told, so that protections were in place to prevent such occurances.

Weeny, I did not suggest Ron be court Marshalled. I just said that is what would've happened had Ron been a soldier on duty.

The fact remains that a court-martial wouldn't have happened since Ron was just a fourteen-year-old kid, and nowhere near a soldier, on- or off-duty. Ron wasn't a surgeon making a life-saving decision, he wasn't a lawyer defending someone in front of the Supreme Court, he wasn't a sports person making game-saving decisions... he was just a fourteen-year-old kid who was upset.

The Tri-Wizard Tournament was considered by all the students to be a lot of fun and a chance to win prize money. No one took it seriously until the first task.

Harry never bothered telling Ron that Mad-Eye Moody thought someone was trying to kill him. Of course, we know Mad-Eye wasn't Mad-Eye, but no one else did. Harry could have told Ron everything that was said after the champions were chosen, but he didn't.

Correction. Ron DID NOT scarifice himself so that Harry could get to the Philosopher's stone. He did it to win the game and to stop Snape.

The way I always read that section, Ron sacrificed himself. That's how I see it each time I reread the book.

I think Ron is a delightful person who is trying his best to muddle through life as well as he can, and if he makes mistakes along the way, well... who doesn't?

At this point, I've said all I'm going to say about Ron and the Tri-Wizard fiasco, and I will leave it to the rest of the Forum to debate or not to debate. Stick a fork in me - I'm done.



Paulus Maximus - Aug 2, 2004 10:11 pm (#908 of 1957)

‘drippan; you used the wrong pronoun. It's "him", not "her"'

To get completely nitpicky about grammar... that's supposed to be the masculine singular genitive pronoun, right? "His," I think, is the word you're looking for.

I got to admit... the avatar fooled me, too...



Sir Tornado - Aug 2, 2004 10:12 pm (#909 of 1957)
Edited Aug 2, 2004 11:39 pm

Ok, Weeny, I don't know if you'll be reading this, but; I'd like to say that I think Ron was wrong and you don't think so. Well, I can quite understand that. But I still feel that most Adults forgive Ron too easily. I guess that's based on each of our expiriences and personalities. I don't think what Ron did was right. That doesn't mean I don't think fights are a part of our life. But there is a limit to all; and one should take the over all situation into consideration before doing so. Well; I do have *slight* disagreements with my friends; but that's it really. We forget about is the next day. The only time I had a REAL fight with a friend; the feud lasted for 2 years and we still don't speak decently with each other.

Now; as all Ron supporters have "tried" to defend Ron's behaviour in GoF; please explain to me another thing. Did Ron really value his friendship with Hermione more than Scabbers or not? OK; he admitted his mistake in PoA. But really; shouldn't he have learnt from his fight with Hermione and tried not to repeat the same in GoF? He should've valued Harry's friendship more. After all Hagrid explained to him why he should value his friends in PoA. It irks me to see that Ron didn't learn from his mistakes. How can there be a guarantee that Ron won't do this again?

Edit: Paulos, you are right. I selected this Avatar because I was sick of seeing Star Crossed's Avatar again and again.



drippan - Aug 3, 2004 12:31 am (#910 of 1957)
Edited Aug 3, 2004 1:36 am

Hey Tornedo, sorry about the mix up! I hope you don't hold this as a grudge against me like this Ron Weasley thing. Smile

" drippan, aren't you a Marine?" Yep!

"How would you have reacted had a fellow marined done in some battle?" They were in a battle? or in a tournament (game)? Big difference.

"Wouldn't he be court marshalled?" He didn't betray his post. He choose his post as Harry's best friend which also give him the option of choosing not to be Harry's best friend.

"Wouldn't that be considered Betrayal?" No. He abandoned him. How did he betray him? He didn't go around bad mouthing Harry or inform on him. He just decide not to be Harry's friend at the time.

"He knew Harry didn't enter the Tri-Wizard himself. He knew many previous contenders have died in the tasks."

Ron was also told that with this TWT that no contenders would die!

"What did he do on the weekend before the First task? Hanging out with the Twins in Hogsmeade? May be Laughing?"

Proof please.......

"If Ron is a faithfull friend as many of his Fan's say he is; why didn't he stick up for Harry?"

Because he was mad at Harry! He thought Harry put his name in the GoF. And Ron also kept checking up on him throughout this ordeal. This shows that he does care about Harry but not ready to throw in the towel.

"Did Ron really value his friendship with Hermione more than Scabbers or not?"

Actually, Ron has told Hermione countless times about Crookshank going after his pet and please try to retain him! When it looks like Crookshank got Scabber, he looses it. Also, Hermione is really upset too that Scabber's bit the big one! I was upset too when I read about Scabber's might be dead!

The difference between the incident in PoA and GoF is that one involved a death after countless warnings, the other, a game. People get very attached to their pets. Ron has shown that he is annoyed with his pets but is still shown love for them.

"How can there be a guarantee that Ron won't do this again?"

Because the argument was over a stupid game!! Ron has always been there when there was danger!! The fireside scene is a prime example. What would Ron had done if he would have walked in and saw Harry in a fight with LV vice talking to Sirius? He would have joined in, that's what!

I do have a question for you. What do you think Ron will do upon learning of Harry's prophecy of kill or be killed? Do you think he's going to turn tail or stay and fight?

drippan



The One - Aug 3, 2004 12:49 am (#911 of 1957)
Edited by Kip Carter Aug 3, 2004 4:59 am

I edited a single word. - Kip

Because the argument was over a stupid game!! Ron has always been there when there was danger!!

Actually it was not just a stupid game. It was dangerous, very dangerous, just not as dangerous as it used to be. It was considered far to dangerous for 14 years old, hence the age limit. They seriously considered the possibility that someone had entered Harry hoping it would kill him, or in order to use it to cover up such a killing.

Before the first task Harry was scared to death, the same was to greater or lesser extent Viktor, Fleur, Cederic, McGonnagol, Hermione, Molly and Sirius.

And the entire school abadoned Harry, including Ron, but excluding Hermione (and in fact Cho).

Whatever the reasons, Ron chose to abandon Harry at a very difficult time indeed, and he knew it.



Magika - Aug 3, 2004 1:06 am (#912 of 1957)

I agree with you there, the One. Ron chose the wrong time to abandon Harry, he could've picked a fight another day! LOL

-Si-



Sir Tornado - Aug 3, 2004 1:06 am (#913 of 1957)

They were in a battle? or in a tournament (game)? Big difference. -- drippan

Actually, I can the entire series is a huge War. Game? I don't think any of you get how serious Tri-Wizard was. It wasn't some silly competition muggles have at schools. How many school children (Muggle) would be ready to fight Mike "Iron" Tyson if you gave them $10,000? Tri-Wizard was much, much more dangerous. Even someone with half the sense Ron has should've realized that.

"Wouldn't that be considered Betrayal?" No. He abandoned him. -- drippan

Isn't there a punishment for Deserting in the Army. So, it's an offence just like Betrayal is. Atleast Morally.

"What did he do on the weekend before the First task? Hanging out with the Twins in Hogsmeade? May be Laughing?"

Proof please....... -- drippan

Drip; the proof can be found in the chapter "Hungarian Horntail" in GoF.

Because he was mad at Harry! He thought Harry put his name in the GoF. --drippan

CORRECTION. Ron was mad at Harry because of his jealousy. If Hermione is to be believed, Ron knew Harry hadn't entered Tri-Wizard on his own.

The difference between the incident in PoA and GoF is that one involved a death after countless warnings, the other, a game. People get very attached to their pets. Ron has shown that he is annoyed with his pets but is still shown love for them. --drippan

I agree with you drippan. But that wasn't what I meant to say. What I meant was; shouldn't Ron have learnt a lesson from PoA about valuing friendships? But he didn't. That's bad.

The fireside scene is a prime example. What would Ron had done if he would have walked in and saw Harry in a fight with LV vice talking to Sirius? He would have joined in, that's what! -- drippan

I'll ask you another question. What'll Ron do if he walks into a duel between Malfoy and Voldemort? Won't he fight against Lord Voldemort then? That's something he'll do in any situation. BTW; Ron DID NOT join Harry in his duel with Malfoy. He came only after Hermione was hit. Why didn't Ron help Harry in that fight?

I do have a question for you. What do you think Ron will do upon learning of Harry's prophecy of kill or be killed? Do you think he's going to turn tail or stay and fight? -- drippan

He'll fight of course. Bravery is the only thing he's got. He'll use that surely.



drippan - Aug 3, 2004 1:11 am (#914 of 1957)

"It was dangerous, very dangerous, just not as dangerous as it used to be."

We, as readers, didn't know how dangerous it was until we saw the dragons and told what he had to do. The only thing we were told is that no students would be killed.

"It was considered far to dangerous for 14 years old, hence the age limit."

And, this is why Ron is angry at Harry. He thought Harry put his name in the GoF. Ron would have really loved to also but couldn't think of a way to do it. He thought Harry found a way but didn't share it with him. Harry also had these illusions of grandeur before his name was picked.

"They seriously considered the possibility that someone had entered Harry hoping it would kill him, or in order to use it to cover up such a killing."

If you mean the "they" as H/R/Hr, they didn't consider that possibility til after the first competition. At least Ron didn't. He came up to Harry after the competition and told Harry that, after watching, that he thinks someone is out to get him.

Oh well, if one incident makes Ron a disloyal friend, then Harry is far worse as a friend. IMO, he's done worse things to Ron.

drippan



Sir Tornado - Aug 3, 2004 1:29 am (#915 of 1957)
Edited Aug 3, 2004 2:32 am

The only thing we were told is that no students would be killed. -- drippan.

That is not what we are told. We are just told it'll be a lot safer. Still, expecting a 14 year old Wizard to get past a Dragon is asking a lot. Even asking an Adult to do it is asking too much.

And, this is why Ron is angry at Harry. He thought Harry put his name in the GoF. -- drippan

CORRECTION. Ron was angry at Harry because of his jealousy. If Hermione is to be believed, Ron knew Harry hadn't entered Tri-Wizard on his own.

Oh well, if one incident makes Ron a disloyal friend, then Harry is far worse as a friend. IMO, he's done worse things to Ron. -- drippan.

I never said he's disloyal. What I've said is that that is why I don't feel he's good enough to be 'shipped with Hermione. It's a flaw in his character. He's loyal... most of the time atleast; but not as much as Ron's fans say he is. And please tell me what things Harry has done to be called a disloyal friend? If there are a lot of them; mention them on Harry's thread.

Thanks!



Star Crossed - Aug 3, 2004 4:00 am (#916 of 1957)

Edit: Paulos, you are right. I selected this Avatar because I was sick of seeing Star Crossed's Avatar again and again.

You flatter me, dear. Never knew my beautiful avatar touched so many.

Now let's get cracking into this debate.

I never said he's disloyal. What I've said is that that is why I don't feel he's good enough to be 'shipped with Hermione. It's a flaw in his character. He's loyal... most of the time atleast; but not as much as Ron's fans say he is. And please tell me what things Harry has done to be called a disloyal friend? If there are a lot of them; mention them on Harry's thread.

Wrong thread, I know, but I just gotta defend my Ron and my ship. Basically, here, you are saying Harry and Hermione are perfect. They're not. All three of them were disloyal to someone at one point. These kids aren't saints. They all mistakes. I'm fourteen and when I read the fight in GoF, I just pass it off. It happens. I go to a school where I see friends fighting all the time, maybe not something as big as the TWT, but they still fight.



MrsGump - Aug 3, 2004 5:24 am (#917 of 1957)

I have to add that using Hermione's "all-knowing" line about Ron "knowing" Harry didn't put his name in the cup...

Maybe it's because I'm an adult, but I don't take that conversation so literally. I don't believe Ron said "I know Harry didn't do it" to Hermione. It's like Hermione explaining Cho's behavior to Harry. She's trying to be the school physchologist and explain away behavior. I think she meant more of a 'deep down, Ron knows the truth but can't bring himself to admit it because he's jelous'.

And the students did think the TWT would be safe. DD tells them every precaution has been taken to make it safe, do they really think DD would agree to something that is going to kill off students?

Harry was just as immature during this whole fight as Ron. When Harry finds out about the dragons and is talking to Sirius, Ron walks in and, for a teenage boy, kind of tries to do the 'just forget we were fighting and start talking like normal so we don't have to apologise" thing. Harry could've told him about the dragons then, even in a mean, sarcastic way, and asked if Ron still thought he did it on purpose and it would've been over. Instead, he throws the SPEW button at his head and we're told he hates Ron at that moment because of Ron's poverty and insercurities. Definatly not a Saint Harry moment.



Denise P. - Aug 3, 2004 6:37 am (#918 of 1957)

And, this is why Ron is angry at Harry. He thought Harry put his name in the GoF. -- drippan

CORRECTION. Ron was angry at Harry because of his jealousy. -- Tornedo

We don't know that really. My take is that Ron was angry because Harry put his name in and didn't tell Ron or put Ron's name in as well. Hermione's take is that Ron is jealous. Unless Ron came out to Hermione and told her that, it is just speculation on her part like the rest of us. Somehow I doubt Ron bared his soul to Hermione and told how he felt in the shadow around Harry all the time. Boys just don't normally do that, not even with their guy friends.

More than likely, it is a combination of feeling left out and feeling jealous. You can't take Hermione's word on this as fact, that Ron was NOT angry about Harry entering but was just jealous of Harry.



tracie1976 - Aug 3, 2004 6:44 am (#919 of 1957)

Even if Ron was jealous and not angry at Harry for being in the TWT, Ron should have put those feelings aside to help Harry especially if Ron appreciated his friendship with Harry.



Eponine - Aug 3, 2004 6:53 am (#920 of 1957)
Edited Aug 3, 2004 7:59 am

As far as whether Ron knew how dangerous the TWT was, was he aware that the first task was dragons? The students were told precautions had been taken, no champion will find themself in mortal danger, blah blah blah; then they show up and oh my, it's dragons! Doesn't seem so tame anymore, does it? Ron might not have realized the danger until the first task.



Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Aug 3, 2004 7:48 am (#921 of 1957)

I don't like the direction this thread had been placed in so I"ve got a new subject.

What do you all think about the brain incident in the DOM? Do you think it will have some strange long term affect on Ron?



Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 3, 2004 7:58 am (#922 of 1957)

It could. Perhaps (very far-fetched) Ron has become possessed by whoever's brain that was.



Star Crossed - Aug 3, 2004 8:03 am (#923 of 1957)

I like the idea that he'll have memories from the brains that will help me.



Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Aug 3, 2004 8:07 am (#924 of 1957)

Me too. But I was more curious as to whom the brains belong/use to belong to.



drippan - Aug 3, 2004 2:05 pm (#925 of 1957)

Sorry everyone, but I want to state one thing about Ron's falling out with Harry:

If your mad at Ron for his behavior in GoF for about a month, you must really be mad at Dumbledore for doing it throughout OotP!

DD didn't speak, look at, or acknowledge Harry for the whole year! He admits that he made a mistake at the end, just like Ron did in GoF! Harry acted to DD the same way he acted to Ron. DD's a 150 years old and still makes mistakes......

I'm sure DD kept track of Harry, but so did Ron. DD still abandoned Harry when he needed it.

What did Ron do? Left Harry to figure out the task which no one knew how dangerous they were. Whooppee, big deal......

What did DD do? He admitted that he is most responsible for Sirius', Harry's stepfather, death! Oops......

Just a slight difference.

drippan



Padfoot - Aug 3, 2004 2:07 pm (#926 of 1957)

If your mad at Ron for his behavior in GoF for about a month, you must really be mad at Dumbledore for doing it throughout OotP!

Yes I am miffed at DD, I have long since gotten over Ron's behavior in GoF.

What did DD do? He admitted that he is most responsible for Sirius', Harry's stepfather, death! Oops......

Yep, that is precisely why I am annoyed at DD.



Magika - Aug 3, 2004 2:49 pm (#927 of 1957)

Well, finally you set the line straight, drippan. Ron's betrayal was a minor thing, DD's was a major one! Here we're talking consequences!

As for the brains (I'm too getting a little tired of the is-Ron-a-jerk-because-he-betrayed-Harry-discussions) I believe they will mark him in some ways. I doubt it will be something as big as some of whatever person the brain belonged to transferred to him. If that had been it, wouldn't Ron have felt or acted different afterwards?



Leila 2X4B - Aug 3, 2004 4:27 pm (#928 of 1957)

About the Ron/Betrayal thing. It is easy to sit here and judge Ron's actions, never have been put in similar situation. Ron acted like most friends do occasionally, adult or youth. I think that the jealously was definitely subconscious. Most people don't even realize that they treat their friends that way, because people can be so consumed with their own feelings, that they are blinded to others. Ron is a normal teen with normal emotions.

Regarding Ron's "Brain Damage". I, think that Madam Poppy stated that thoughts could harm people more than anything else. There is likely to have some affects in the coming book.



Sir Tornado - Aug 3, 2004 11:04 pm (#929 of 1957)
Edited Aug 4, 2004 12:06 am

Basically, here, you are saying Harry and Hermione are perfect. They're not. All three of them were disloyal to someone at one point. -- Star Crossed

Evidence Aly; where's the evidence?

These kids aren't saints. -- Star Crossed

Wrong again. Hermione can definately qualify for a Saint.

And the students did think the TWT would be safe. DD tells them every precaution has been taken to make it safe, do they really think DD would agree to something that is going to kill off students? -- Mrs Grump

Hang on a second. If TWT wasn't dangerous; why weren't under-age students not allowed to enter? BTW; DD never said TWT was not dangerous; he said it was just less dangerous. DD also warned the Students that many Champions had died in the past.

If your mad at Ron for his behavior in GoF for about a month, you must really be mad at Dumbledore for doing it throughout OotP! -- drippan

drippan; you are forgeting one thing; DD had Harry's best intrests at heart. He was trying to help Harry. It was a blunder; but we should look at his intentions before blaming him. With Ron; it was a bit different.

I'm really sorry on bringing the Thread back on that subject; but I like to get facts straight. As far as Ron being possesed; I don't think so. DD would've known.



The One - Aug 3, 2004 11:31 pm (#930 of 1957)

Wrong again. Hermione can definitely qualify for a Saint.

She most definitely do not. I love her, but she is no Saint. All the kids have flaws, serious flaws, that make them believable.

But I do feel that the Ron lovers tend to gloss over some of Ron flaws, and because of that I expect them to be suprised and disappointed by some of Ron's actions in future books. I feel there are some loose threads dangling regarding his issues, pointing towards them making problems in book 6. I might be wrong of course, he may just grow out of it, but nevertheless, that is my prediction.



Sir Tornado - Aug 4, 2004 12:05 am (#931 of 1957)

All the kids have flaws, serious flaws, that make them believable.

I don't see any flaw in Hermione. Ok; she isn't intrested in quidditch. But is that a flaw?



Leila 2X4B - Aug 4, 2004 12:51 am (#932 of 1957)

Her flaw is that she is completely oblivious at times. She has little tact and is a self-rightous little thing. However, this thread is about Ron, who is also flawed. Ron is also obilvious and often times seems to not be paying any attention to anything. Love them all anyway.

Leila



drippan - Aug 4, 2004 1:05 am (#933 of 1957)

Tornedo, "It was a blunder......"

that got his god father killed!

Figure I finish the sentence for you.

drippan



The One - Aug 4, 2004 1:32 am (#934 of 1957)

Tornedo

Hermione is a Saint and Ron deserves to die? Do you really believe JKR intends us to read the characters completely in Black and White?



Star Crossed - Aug 4, 2004 4:40 am (#935 of 1957)

Basically, here, you are saying Harry and Hermione are perfect. They're not. All three of them were disloyal to someone at one point. -- Star Crossed

Evidence Aly; where's the evidence?

Using the Time Turner for a reason other than her studies, that's disloyal to the MoM, tricking her way into the restricted section, that's disloyal to Lockhart, lying to her professors, disloyal to them. Hermione is no where near perfect. She tricks others, she lies, she cheats, and...she's a normal teenage girl. Like The One said, it's not black and white.



MrsGump - Aug 4, 2004 5:45 am (#936 of 1957)

Stealing Boomslang skin (while getting Harry to explode a cauldron of potion and splashing students with it in order to do it...)

No, none of these students are perfect or saints. They would get pretty boring if they were.

Of course, that is also the beauty of a book compared to any other media. When we read it, we "hear" the tone and actions of everyone through our own experiences. Reading a book is a different experience for everyone. If you've never had a best friend that you had a fight with, but are still completely loyal to each other and got over it, you might not understand the Ron/ Harry spat in GoF.

(And Tornado, wasn't the age limit suppose to be because the younger ones didn't know enough upper level magic {like NEWT level} in order to compete? I don't think DD puts less of a concern on the welfare of older students vs younger students)



Steve Newton - Aug 4, 2004 7:12 am (#937 of 1957)

Star Crossed,

In message 926 you seem to say that loyalty leads to sainthood. You site betraying the MOM with the time turner, disloyal to Lockhart and other professors (you site this as being disloyal.)

It seems to me that loyalty is not what makes saints. It is doing good, even when the choices are bad. (Notice how I wove the choices theme in here.) In the time turner scene Hermione decides that more good will come of using the TT than not using it. In fact the MOM is being evil, at least in a bureaucratic impersonal way.

I admit that lying is not particularly saintly. And as a theme I find this bothersome.

I suspect the the Hermione forum would be a better place to continue this discussion.



Czarina II - Aug 4, 2004 7:23 am (#938 of 1957)

None of the characters can qualify for sainthood yet. They're still alive. :-)



The One - Aug 4, 2004 7:25 am (#939 of 1957)

St. Sirius?



Weeny Owl - Aug 4, 2004 8:17 am (#940 of 1957)

Teehee, Czarina, excellent point, and hopefully our trio will stay that way! I truly cannot see how any of the trio have done anything worth a death sentence, but perhaps I've just become a softie in my dotage.

I've been pondering the question of the brain incident, and the ways in which JKR could take it are almost infinite.

She could ignore it completely, of course, and just leave the significance of Madam Pomfrey's statement to stand as is.

She could use it to make key plot points where Ron says or does something totally out of character.

She could use it with humor. She's good at having funny things now and again to lighten up more serious moments.

I doubt if she'll ignore it. It seems to be a prime opportunity to have Ron add something necessary when another explanation might not work as well. Granted, these books are fiction, but there does have to be verisimilitude even so.



Sir Tornado - Aug 4, 2004 8:15 pm (#941 of 1957)

Using the Time Turner for a reason other than her studies, that's disloyal to the MoM, tricking her way into the restricted section, that's disloyal to Lockhart, lying to her professors, disloyal to them. Hermione is no where near perfect. She tricks others, she lies, she cheats, and...she's a normal teenage girl. -- Star Crossed

... All for a good reason. Where as Ron stabbed Harry in the back and Spat on his faced for no reason at all (Please don't remind me it's not possible to Stab in the back and spit on the face at the same time. I know that).

(And Tornado, wasn't the age limit suppose to be because the younger ones didn't know enough upper level magic {like NEWT level} in order to compete? I don't think DD puts less of a concern on the welfare of older students vs younger students) -- Mrs Grump

I never said that DD is less concerned about the Welfare of the Older students. What I meant was that there was a very small possibility for a 6th or 7th year student to die in TWT; while a 4th year student had a very high possibility of dying. So, DD would, naturally be more concerned about under-aged students.

Also; I agree with Weeny over the Brain incident.



Chris. - Aug 4, 2004 9:05 pm (#942 of 1957)

... All for a good reason. Where as Ron stabbed Harry in the back and Spat on his faced for no reason at all.

Remember, Harry was just as stubborn in offering the hand of friendship to Ron. It was Ron, who swallowed his pride, and decided to make up with Harry.



drippan - Aug 5, 2004 3:20 am (#943 of 1957)

Tornedo,

You said that "Ron deserves to die". If it's just because he and Harry had a falling out in GoF, that's a pretty harsh punishment, isn't it?

drippan

# Note to self: If Tornedo answers "yes", don't become Tornedo's friend*



tracie1976 - Aug 5, 2004 4:20 am (#944 of 1957)

Remember, Harry was just as stubborn in offering the hand of friendship to Ron. It was Ron, who swallowed his pride, and decided to make up with Harry

Ron was the one you started it all by not believing Harry so it should have been Ron who apologized to Harry first. Harry did nothing wrong to get his best friend to act so idiotic during that whole situation.



The One - Aug 5, 2004 4:28 am (#945 of 1957)

It all reminds me of a saying my father sometimes quoted as an explanation for a fight:

"The hole thing started because he hit me back!"



Sir Tornado - Aug 5, 2004 6:29 am (#946 of 1957)

*Note to self: If Tornedo answers "yes", don't become Tornedo's friend* -- drippan.

drippan; was that supposed to be a joke? To quote your own words to you, You are sooo EVIL

Tornedo,

You said that "Ron deserves to die". If it's just because he and Harry had a falling out in GoF, that's a pretty harsh punishment, isn't it? -- drippan

Yes... and NO. I said it because Ron wasn't there when Harry needed him the most. Just think about it; had Harry died; he would've died thinking last thing his best friend said to him was calling him a liar. (Excuse me for bad sentence formation. My english teacher would have a heart-attack if he sees this.) Ron doesn't deserve to die any death; he deserves to die a Hero's death. I don't see why any one has any problem with that.

BTW; I always wanted to know; is drippan your first name or last?



The One - Aug 5, 2004 7:05 am (#947 of 1957)
Edited Aug 5, 2004 8:07 am

I thought I should through in some thoughts about why I find the GoF fight harmful. I agree that the discussion did degenerate into whether or not Ron is a Jerk. Which he is not. He is just a teenager with issues. But the problem as I see it comes from this passage:

GoF:

He wrenched the hangings shut around his four-poster, leaving Harry standing there by the door, staring at the dark red velvet curtains, now hiding one of the few people he had been sure would believe him.

Even if the fight is over, even if Harry has forgiven Ron, if a similar situation arises again, can he ever again be 100% sure of Ron’s loyalty?

If Harry starts playing Quiddich again and is once more the star of the team, maybe even a captain, and Ron starts playing bad again (which he may or may not do) and are replaced as a keeper. What will that do to their friendship? And even if Ron plays well and stays on the team; will Harry deep down fear that his friendship with Ron depends on Ron’s goalkeeping abilities?

Ron’s Prefect career may not have been too successful. What if he looses his badge to Harry? Or looses his badge to someone else the same day Harry is made Quiddich captain? Will he resent that and let it destroy their friendship?

What if Harry’s OWL-grades are far better than Ron’s, and he is admitted to Potions while Ron is not? Then Harry may still make Auror, while Ron’s Auror dreams are crushed. How will Ron react to that?

All these things are things that may happen in the next book, things that could have put a strain to any friendship, and which will hit their friendship at a point that is already proven weak. And I am sorry, I do not believe the fight did strengthen their friendship at that point, because the fight have in no way helped to resolve real issues behind the fight. Those issues can only be resolved when Ron forgets about what he saw in the mirror of Erised and learns to accept himself for what he is.

The point is: Harry know very well that whatever bad things Voldemort might throw in his direction, Ron will be there for him; and do or die with him. But he does not know if he can really trust Ron to stand by him whenever fate throws something seemingly good in Harry’s direction, and fails to do the same for Ron.

This uncertainty will in a very subtle way change their friendship. Sirius is mentioned as the one that James trusts beyond all his other friends. Mostly due to the fight, it is probably no longer Ron, but Hermione that is that kind of a friend for Harry. Not because the fight makes Ron a jerk, but because some things, when first done, are very hard to undo. Even if you are only 14 years.



drippan - Aug 5, 2004 8:26 am (#948 of 1957)

Tornedo, "drippan; was that supposed to be a joke? To quote your own words to you, You are sooo EVIL "

Thanks!!!!! I just didn't want a fall out with you and you start thinking I should die! Smile

"I said it because Ron wasn't there when Harry needed him the most."

Did Harry really need Ron "the most" at the time? Nobody knew what the first task was. What would have Ron done to help Harry?

You can say that Harry needed DD "the most" throughout OotP. No matter what reason DD gave, Harry needed him. DD knew he should have taught Harry Occlumency, that Snape and Harry did not get along, and he should have been more honest with Harry. Instead, he ignored him. Harry needed DD the most!

"had Harry died; he would've died thinking last thing his best friend said to him was calling him a liar."

If Harry would have died in OotP, his last thoughts would have been "I always thought DD would be there for me."

"Ron doesn't deserve to die any death; he deserves to die a Hero's death."

The second sentence controdicts the first. The first part says he doesn't deserve to die then the second says he deserves to die a Hero's death. Death is death, no matter if it's a hero's death or not.

Now, with you saying Ron deserves a hero's death, then Marietta deserves to be "drawn and quartered", hung, shot, burned at the stake, electricuted, and drowned for her actual betrayal of Harry and the rest of the DA.

The One, you used alot of "if's" throughout your statement. Isn't it possible that Harry has forgiven Ron 100%? Sure, they'll remember it and will probably joke about it in the future. There is no proof that Harry will ever doubt or hold this against Ron. There is proof that Harry has forgiven Ron though. It was the "thing Harry would miss most". As a matter of fact, it gave Ron something to brag about after the second task. Ron is also over it. He let Harry use him as "target practice" for the third task. I wouldn't want someone with a grudge to use me as target practice.

The big issue here is:

1) Does Harry trust Ron 100%?, and

2) Does Ron trust Harry 100%?

They both done their fair share of harm to the friendship. Still, they consider each other their best friend.

drippan

P.S. Tornedo, it's neither. drippan is a nickname I got way back in 1981. I was 22 at the time. This was about 10 years before you were born!!



The One - Aug 5, 2004 9:49 am (#949 of 1957)
Edited Aug 5, 2004 10:53 am

There is a lot of if's. But note that my argument does in no way depend on any of those if's actually happening, or that if they do happen that Ron does actually react badly. Just the mere possibility of those if's create problem.

I may shorten my post to three sentences:

Before the big fight, Ron had never, ever let Harry down. After the fight that statement is no longer true. This change cannot possible be undone.

Harry has learned something about Ron, something about his strengths and weaknesses, something about under what circumstances Ron is unable to control himself. He still loves Ron, he misses him and trusts him in almost any situation, but this new knowledge simply cannot be forgiven away. And before you ask: Harry has raged at Ron, treated him badly in different ways, but he has still not let Ron down. Not once. Neither has Hermione let Harry down. She made him very angry, when she turned in the Firebolt, yes, but she did not disapoint him, like Ron did, because he realized from the very beginning why she had done it. That fight will not leave by far as deep scars is this fight probably will have done.

I will give you a prediction about book 6 that illustrates what I mean: In books 6, if there are any combat-like situation, Harry will never for one moment distrust Ron when the going gets though. Harry have learned many times that however grim the situation will be, Ron will never abandon him.

But there will be times, probably as early as when Harry tells his friends about the prophecy; that Harry will prefer to talk to Hermione because he feels that his problem marks him as special, and Harry will be uncertain of Ron's reaction. (Note that I do not predict that Ron will react badly to e.g. the prophecy, only that Harry will fear that he might.)

There you are. We will see sometime next year whether I am correct or not.



Padfoot - Aug 5, 2004 10:48 am (#950 of 1957)

The big issue here is:

1) Does Harry trust Ron 100%?, and

2) Does Ron trust Harry 100%? -drippan

I say yes to both 1 & 2. They fought and have gotten over it by now. There will be other personality conflicts and maybe even jealousy issues between them. However they will remain best friends and confide in each other throughout the series.
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Magika - Aug 5, 2004 4:10 pm (#951 of 1957)

I like your theories, The One. You put my thoughts into words! Smile I don't think Ron will betray Harry when it really matters. He might be jealous and mad at him, but I don't think he will let Harry stand alone when it really matters.



drippan - Aug 5, 2004 4:48 pm (#952 of 1957)

The One, "Harry has raged at Ron, treated him badly in different ways, but he has still not let Ron down."

Well, as you said, the incident has effected Harry with his reaction towards Ron.

Now, with the DoM, do you think Ron can ever trust Harry to make a good decision? This has got to effect him in a major way. The same can be said about Hermione's feelings toward Harry.

Can Harry ever trust DD again after his non-reaction to him throughout OotP? Harry has kept secrets from DD (him hearing the voices in the wall in CoS and him telling DD about that the sorting hat made a bad decision are some) but DD is 150 years old. He should know better, shouldn't he?

Can Molly or Arthur ever trust Percy if he rejoins the family or the OotP? You can see the effect it has had on both of them.

Can anybody really trust Mundungus? He's a racketeer, he left his post of watching Harry, and he's selling the twins illegal product. You ever wonder why he's in the order?

This all comes down to one thing, trust. As can be seen, everyone has done wrong but the big hump everyone of them have to do to defeat LV is forgiveness. They can't be a good organization if they don't forgive other members' short-comings and have the trust that is needed.

Now, LV has a different way to forgive. He tortures the person who offended him. This doesn't make the person forgive LV, it just makes him afraid of LV.

drippan



True Love - Aug 5, 2004 6:15 pm (#953 of 1957)

Ron is perfect. He is the best character in the book. His observations and reactions to the world around him are smart and funny - I especially love his sense of humour. He is so typical "boy" in every respect whether it has to do with teachers, homework, classes, girls, sisters, brothers, or sports. JKR has created a wonderful person, so absolutely believable that I want meet him, talk to him and watch him play chess. There is nothing mysterious about Ron. He is not a seer and I don't think we will find special clues pertaining to his actions. Ron just is. Is you ask? Ron is perfect.



Kasse - Aug 5, 2004 6:19 pm (#954 of 1957)

Ron is perfect - True Love

As much as I love Ron, no one is perfect, he has his faults........I do agree that he has a great sense of humour though.



The One - Aug 5, 2004 10:33 pm (#955 of 1957)

I like your theories, The One. You put my thoughts into words! Smile I don't think Ron will betray Harry when it really matters. He might be jealous and mad at him, but I don't think he will let Harry stand alone when it really matters.

Magika

But you see, combat is not the only situation that matters. I do expect the scars left by the TWT-fight and the issues that caused it to come back and haunt us in the HBP.

By the way: Voss.

drippan

Excellent examples, all showing that have you first really let someone down, that is an action it is very difficult to undo.

As for DD. I do believe it will be very difficult indeed for him fully to regain Harry's trust. This may very well be important to the plot in HBP.

As for Ron trusting Harry's decisions : Assume that a new situation should arise, where Harry goes banana, and insist upon diving headlong into a very dangerous situation because of a scar-induced dream. Ron telling himself: "Well, this proved a disaster last time, but I have forgiven him that, so let's do it again!" doesn't really cut it, does it? To forgive is not the same as to forget.



Paulus Maximus - Aug 5, 2004 11:25 pm (#956 of 1957)

"Well, this proved a disaster last time, but I have forgiven him that, so let's do it again!"

The scary thing is, I can imagine Ron saying something to that effect.

I hope he matures a bit (or a lot) in the last two books, so that I might find it less plausible...



schoff - Aug 5, 2004 11:55 pm (#957 of 1957)
Edited Aug 6, 2004 1:24 am

Okay, I've tried to stay out, but now I really can't:

Tornado: Weeny said that Ron's behaviour in GoF was OK for a 14-year old. I've got news for you Weeny; it's NOT.

Tornedo: Where as Ron stabbed Harry in the back and Spat on his faced for no reason at all (Please don't remind me it's not possible to Stab in the back and spit on the face at the same time. I know that).

The One: Before the big fight, Ron had never, ever let Harry down. After the fight that statement is no longer true. This change cannot possible be undone.

When I was in high school, my best friend since 5th grade started having what I will call "emotional problems." I didn't want to deal with it as I had problems of my own. Instead of facing her, I sent her a letter telling her I would no longer be her friend. I would no longer talk to her, and I did not want to see her ever again. I could no longer handle her insecurities, and to be quite frank, I told her she needed to see a shrink for her attention-grabbing histrionics.

I abandoned my best friend when she desperately needed me. I let her down. My behavior was made even worse after I later found out that one of the reasons she started acting so strange was because she had been date-raped and didn't want anyone to know. And I am not the exception to the rule. My personal problems were just as bad as hers, even if my behavior was totally unjustified.

The One: Even if the fight is over, even if Harry has forgiven Ron, if a similar situation arises again, can he ever again be 100% sure of Ron’s loyalty?

After two months--where we had said not one word to each other--we finally met and talked it out. Not once after that has this incident ever been brought up. In fact, I didn't even remember it until reading through this discussion. It has been over 10 years, and we discuss everything together. She knows full well that I will listen whenever she calls, and that I am always on her side--and she never hesitates to come to me with the most serious of problems. She can count on my loyalty 100% and I know the same about her. She will come running if I need her.

Luke E.A. Lockhart: Teenagers are, actually, capable of being just as rational as adults.

It is very easy to think of teenagers as mini-adults but they are not. I teach students how to drive, and I spend a lot of one-on-one time with 15 and 16 year-olds. I can talk to them about a lot of things--and frequently do. They are completely capable of having the most intricate, philosophical, or even knowledge-based conversations all the time. I am constantly amazed that I frequently have to remind myself that *I* am the adult in the car. BUT they do not do this ALL of the time. Their brains are not yet trained enough to follow and pick up patterns that we see as adults, and they cannot yet see all the possible consequences for their actions. Whereas teenagers see egging the car as a bit of fun with no one getting hurt, adults know that that "fun" is going to cost them a lot of time (cleaning the car) and money (ruined paint job).

Even the most mature teenager will still inadvertantly or purposefully make immature decisions. They ARE NOT adults yet; they do not yet know the true weight of being responsible for other people, even if legally they *can* be held responsible for their actions. Their focus is on themselves, and they rarely see outside of themselves and their personal problems. That is why it is adults who deal with community or global issues, not children. It's so rare to see a child make that type of impact that it usually garners headline attention when it happens.

Tornedo: Ron DID NOT join Harry in his duel with Malfoy. He came only after Hermione was hit. Why didn't Ron help Harry in that fight?

Because Harry can take care of himself. He did not need Ron, so Ron didn't offer. Harry doesn't need Ron's help putting Draco in his place, and Ron knows it. When it became obvious that Harry did need help, Ron immediately stepped up to the plate.

The One: To forgive is not the same as to forget.

That is assuming Harry has not forgotten. Of which there is absolutely no evidence.



Weeny Owl - Aug 6, 2004 12:11 am (#958 of 1957)

Wow, schoff.

I am stunned and incredibly impressed with your insight. That analysis was amazing, and you have said so much in a quite remarkable way. My hat is off to you.



Casey - Aug 6, 2004 7:07 am (#959 of 1957)

"Ron is perfect - True Love

As much as I love Ron, no one is perfect, he has his faults........I do agree that he has a great sense of humour though."

I'm sure the word "perfect" was used loosely here.



Casey - Aug 6, 2004 7:16 am (#960 of 1957)
Edited by Aug 6, 2004 8:18 am

All of this talk about Ron not being a true friend is ridiculous, if you ask me. I know in my heart of hearts that this sounds petty and immature, that's why it hurts to badly to go through it, but has anyone here EVER been friends with a person who just seems to get all the glory? It happens in the work world all the time, and even though you're a mature adult, it's frustrating. I'm sure everyone here, at some point and time, has felt unappreciated and invisible. Put those feelings into the mind of a 14 year-old boy with a ton of brothers and a poor family, and he's going to snap at some point. That's just what happens.

Now...whether or not JKR used this to foreshadow some change in Ron (i.e. turning evil) is beyond me. I wouldn't doubt it. But, as of right now, I think Ron is a loyal friend. He redeemed himself after the first task in GOF. He knew he was wrong. Ron has his heart in the right place. I will always stand by my man.



Kasse - Aug 6, 2004 7:22 am (#961 of 1957)

Yes Casey Ron did redeem himself after GOF. Like I have said before, they fought and they got over it, thier friendhip was tested and passed.



The One - Aug 6, 2004 9:58 am (#962 of 1957)
Edited Aug 6, 2004 10:58 am

schoff

I have been thinking a quite a bit about your post. I admit I tend to be a little overzealous when discussing the Harry/Ron relationship, but your experiences have sawn quite some doubts in my mind. I will calm down and reconsider.

Mind you, I will not promise that my views on Ron will have changed when I flares up again, I am a stubborn old hag, but anyway, thank you for sharing your experiences.



schoff - Aug 6, 2004 11:57 am (#963 of 1957)
Edited Aug 6, 2004 12:59 pm

The One: I am not asking you to change your opinion on Ron. I'm quite stubborn in my beliefs too (Snape is NOT spying on Voldemort!!!!) Some say overzealous, I say intensely personally involved

I am just trying to make the point that not every error in judgement is punished forever. True friends move on. One incident, no matter how bad, does not have to cloud the entire relationship. Hermione does not hold a grudge against Harry and Ron for abandoning *her* without good reason during PoA.



drippan - Aug 6, 2004 1:04 pm (#964 of 1957)

Casey , "but has anyone here EVER been friends with a person who just seems to get all the glory?"

Can't say I have. I'm always the one who get the glory!! Smile

Well, it looks like we got over "we really hate Ron and he deserves to die" part! A couple bloody noses and a black eye but what doesn't kill you makes you stronger!

drippan



Sir Tornado - Aug 6, 2004 9:03 pm (#965 of 1957)

Tornedo, it's neither. drippan is a nickname I got way back in 1981. I was 22 at the time. This was about 10 years before you were born!! -- drippan

It's 7 years. Actually; I was planning to use the name 'drippan' for one of the characters in a story I'm writing.

Ron is perfect - True Love

No he's not. The only person who's close to being perfect in HP is Dumbledore; and to some extent; Lupin.

Scoff... I won't comment on your analysis; if I do; I might sound a bit rude. However; I've come to a conclusion here that our beliefs on Harry/Ron friendship are all based on our expiriences. I think I'm right in saying that thise who support Ron have gone through a crisis in a friendship and have sucessfully repaired it? And those who hate Ron do it either because of their 'ship or because they have had a very bad expirience in their friendships?

I think I should take a break here.



Chris. - Aug 6, 2004 9:18 pm (#966 of 1957)
Edited Aug 6, 2004 10:21 pm

Hmm... I was just browsing through past posts on this thread and I was quite surprised to see that people would like Ron, but only if he sacrificed himself for Harry, due to his "disloyalty" in GF.

I really don't see why people hold this grudge. They had an argument, but they made up. Ron was prepared to go to the DOM with Harry. This shows he ready to fight, and perhaps die, beside his friends, Hermione and Harry.

And those who hate Ron do it either because of their 'ship or because they have had a very bad expirience in their friendships?- Tornedo.

I'm sorry but I have to say the majority of people who dislike Ron, that I have talked to, are Hermione/Harry 'shippers.

As for the "being perfect" question, Dumbledore and Lupin are not perfect. None of them are. Dumbledore has his faults, he even admits to them at the end of OP. Lupin is far from perfect too.

EDIT: I noticed you saied "close to perfect" Sorry! but my point still stands....I think.



drippan - Aug 6, 2004 10:07 pm (#967 of 1957)

Tornedo, "Actually; I was planning to use the name 'drippan' for one of the characters in a story I'm writing."

Use away. I never submitted it to the patent office so I couldn't get any money from you anyway!

drippan



Weeny Owl - Aug 6, 2004 10:30 pm (#968 of 1957)

While I see Ron and Hermione as complementary parts of a union, that has nothing to do with why I like Ron.

I've liked him since the trio's first trip on the Hogwarts Express, but more than anything I suppose it was his reaction when the three stooges came into the compartment. Anyone who can laugh at Malfoy is definitely one of my favorites.

Actually, out of the six that went to the Department of Mysteries, I love them all. They have their quirks, their strengths and weaknesses, and their annoying moments, but they're believable. They seem just like kids you could meet anywhere, but the difference is that they can do magic.

Ron is a sweetheart with a heart of gold, and besides his Gryffindor bravery, he truly cares about his friends and family.



schoff - Aug 6, 2004 10:40 pm (#969 of 1957)

Tornedo: However; I've come to a conclusion here that our beliefs on Harry/Ron friendship are all based on our expiriences. I think I'm right in saying that thise who support Ron have gone through a crisis in a friendship and have sucessfully repaired it?

I first read GF over two years ago. It never made me change how I feel about the character of Ron. Since I never once made the connection to my own past until last night, then you would have to be wrong, Tornedo. I support Ron because he is worth supporting. He has done nothing wrong worth being permanently branded for.

People fight, and they make up. Life goes on. One must either learn to forgive and forget minor (and some major) trespasses if they feel the relationship is worth saving, or suffer a life of bitterness over things they cannot control. People should look to the future, not dwell in the past.

Ron's actions are forgivable. Harry has forgiven him.



True Love - Aug 7, 2004 2:45 am (#970 of 1957)

Best friends are very important and I think that is what JKR has shown us. I don't believe Ron will betray Harry but Harry might think he has (in the next books). He might see certain actions as betrayal and someone (Draco?) may pass on poisonous information (gossip and rumours can be so damaging)but it will all right itself in the end. I don't think this is one thing (his relationship with Ron) that Harry will loose.

Your theory that people who have best friends and have gone through similar experiences is bang on. I too almost lost a great friendship early in our relationship because of my own feelings of jealousy and unfairness but I am so glad I got past that - matured I guess - as we have been best friends for over 20 years now. Once I saw her as my equal I too excelled, just as we see Ron doing now.



Sara Elizabeth - Aug 10, 2004 6:44 am (#971 of 1957)

I find this thread very interesting because when I read GofF I was actually much more angry with Harry and his reactions. I expected a best friend to be much more understanding of what a friend may be going through. I felt he refused to even try to consider Ron's feelings above his own. Harry seemed very selfish and self absorbed to me. Not to mention, neither Ron nor Harry even once considered what their feuding did to Hermione. They should have apologized to her also.

But of course, I adore all three of them and could never stay angry at any of them!



Magika - Aug 10, 2004 1:44 pm (#972 of 1957)

I couldn't agree more, Sara! Harry had a large part of the blame. That boy is so stubborn!!

Smile



Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Aug 10, 2004 3:44 pm (#973 of 1957)

I agree completely Sara.



Sir Tornado - Aug 11, 2004 8:36 pm (#974 of 1957)
Edited by shepherdess Aug 11, 2004 9:40 pm

So, this is the limit. Now you are saying that Harry takes all the blame and Ron goes scot free? Now you've really ticked me off.

Edit: I changed one word in this post. Tornedo, please remember this is a family forum.-shepherdess



Mynn - Aug 11, 2004 8:41 pm (#975 of 1957)

Tornedo, I don't think they're saying Ron is Blameless, but to totally blame Ron is wrong too. Harry has his own stubborn streak and he has a tendency to keep really important things inside his head. There is a Serious lack of communication thing going on.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 11, 2004 8:48 pm (#976 of 1957)
Edited by Mare Aug 12, 2004 5:11 am

Tornedo, I think the comment "So, this is the limit. Now you are saying that Harry takes all the blame and Ron goes scot free? Now you've really ticked me off." is really off base.

Why does anyone have to be blamed? Things happen, share the feelings, the responsibility, and move on, that is growing, which is a central point in these books. Is also something true friends do.

Any time two people disagree, there are two points of view, neither right, wrong , or indifferent, they are still POINTS of view, right, wrong don't enter into, is just two different points of view.

Blaming someone for their point of view doesn't make that veiwpoint right.

Our perceptions, are like our choices, makes us the humans we are... right, wrong , indifferent, we are still human.



Czarina II - Aug 11, 2004 9:39 pm (#977 of 1957)

Tornedo, thanks for sharing that we've made you angry. What is your point, may I ask? I think Twinkling is right on -- we all have our points of view. And Mynn is right -- both boys are to blame. Either we compromise or agree to disagree and move on.



the judderman - Aug 12, 2004 1:40 am (#978 of 1957)

I don't see why both Harry and Ron shouldnt get off, "scott free." There's no need to apportion blame, for either of them to feel guilty after the initial period, and certainly no need for either of them to be punished. They had an argument, they resolved it, its over and done with.



Sir Tornado - Aug 12, 2004 3:05 am (#979 of 1957)

The thing is, you can't expect Harry to "Run after Ron trying to make him grow up". Ron started the argument by calling Harry a liar and he had to end it by apologising to Harry. Period.



Czarina II - Aug 12, 2004 3:36 am (#980 of 1957)

Tornedo, people waiting for those who provoke an argument to come crawling back to apologise is a cause for numerous feuds and wars.

the judderman -- I agree. I should have said "both boys were at fault", for both could have ended the argument.



MrsGump - Aug 12, 2004 6:24 am (#981 of 1957)

I agree, Czarina II, that you shouldn't wait for someone to apologise to end an argument. I've seen freindships and families torn apart because everyone was being stubborn.

Harry obviously didn't need an apology in the end, because he stopped Ron before he could actually say it. I think Ron coming to look for Harry (concerned because he was out so late) was his way of trying to reach out without having to use the words. Harry was just still too mad and nervous about the dragons, to accept. After the first task, Harry was ready to see that Ron was trying to apologise.

I think a sign of maturity is being able to accept that other people sometimes make mistakes (ex. think you're lying when you're not) And being able to forgive with having to hear the other person say the words is also a sign of maturity. But I know adults much older than I who continue to carry on a grudge because they haven't heard the words. It's sad.



constant vigilance - Aug 12, 2004 6:49 am (#982 of 1957)

I found that section of GoF, where Ron and Harry aren't speaking, to be one of the most painful parts of all five books. I think I put some of myself into Harry's mind during that part. If that were me, I would have been horribly depressed to lose my closest friend over something I didn't choose to participate in--the Tournament.

I was bummed with how Ron reacted. But I don't believe he will let that get between him and Harry again. I think he had all he could stomach of being in the shadows of everyone around him, thus he blew-up. Actually, both he and Harry did this. What good friends? (kidding) Harry had years of being tormented, left out, or punished for who he was---an orphaned boy with family that hates him--- and all those events at Hogwarts---being labeled the heir of slytherain because of his accidental ability to speak parseltongue. Ron abandoning him was all he could take of people hating him for what just sort of happened by chance. They both blew-up at one another because they both have issues that had been stirring inside of them for awhile.

Ron is still over-shadowed by others, but I think he is also coming into his own sort of light. Harry is still getting shoved on stage (or now sort of accepted this as his role) but I continue to read in every book how he wishes that he could be like the other kids who can laugh, and the greatest stress in their lives is exams.



Padfoot - Aug 13, 2004 2:33 pm (#983 of 1957)

I was bummed too constant vigilance, at Harry's loneliness leading up to the first task. So when Ron and Harry went back to their normal friendship, I was very pleased and relieved for Harry's sake.



Sir Tornado - Aug 13, 2004 7:57 pm (#984 of 1957)

Ok, those who have found excuses on Ron's behaviour; do you blame Marietta? Or do you let her off too? If Ron's behaviour wasn't that bad, you can also argue that Marietta was also just 16; and could as easily comit a mistake as Ron could, plus, she must've been under a lot of Parental pressure. What's your take on that? Please answer on Marietta's thread and NOT Ron's thread. I posted this question on this thread because I wanted to hear the comments of the members who have loyally defended Ron for almost a fortnight on different threads.



Archangel - Aug 13, 2004 9:17 pm (#985 of 1957)

Nice Avatar Tornedo. Too bad Owen's gonna be playing for Real Madrid this season. =(

This is my first time to post on this thread so I apologize if this has been discussed before. IMHO, Ron's very prone to envy. He always wishes for something... wish he played Quidditch better, wish he had more money... I know that this has been discussed and his actions have been defended ad nauseum but I feel like this is such a great weakness in his character that Voldemort (or perhaps Bellatrix... beautiful woman who looooves to play tricks?) could exploit to the doom of Harry and possibly the Order.



TomProffitt - Aug 13, 2004 9:20 pm (#986 of 1957)

Yes, Archangel, Ron can be envious, but he is not so shallow as to allow it break his friendship with Harry. He learned that lesson in GoF.



Gemini Wolfie - Aug 14, 2004 12:43 am (#987 of 1957)

I'm new to the thread and am astounded by all the bad talk about Ron.

Honestly, how many of us have mistrusted or thought badly of our best friends or our significant other? How many of us have acted on it? I personally regret some of the things I have said and done in highschool. What's worse? Thinking badly of your friend and acting upon it or thinking badly of your friend but pretending you thought otherwise? Probably depends on whether you prefer to hear what your friend is really thinking or simply their verbal support. I've been jealous of my best friends in the past as well as in the present and I can see myself getting jealous in the future as well. I am not an unselfish person but I do try to understand. I can't help how I feel. What I can do is feel bad about it and consciously want to avoid doing things that I don't feel makes me a good person. I take pride in understanding that everyone has their own thing to be proud of. I personally know that I'm not a hardworker so good for others if they worked harder than I did and is currently more successful than I am. But that doesn't mean I'm any less happier. I would be glad if others are happy no matter what they are doing and happiness is really the most important thing.

True friendships endure the test of time. Over time, you also learn and come to understand your friend's character and how he or she is. If he is short tempered or highly defensive when criticized then that's how he is. If he's a highly jealous individual then that's how he is. If he's incredibly cheap and calculating then that's how he is. Your friend's flaws may bother you but will it be serious enough to affect your friendship? It depends, but if you've been friends for that long you've probably grown to accept your friends' flaws.

Am I willing to risk my life for any of my friends? Probably not. Will I tell someone to kill my friend instead of me? I sure hope not. Does that make me a bad friend? I don't think so. I honestly think that if we find someone, a significant other or simply a friend or relative that we're willing to risk our life for, then either we're really a good soul and or we're really lucky.

Your best friend or significant other probably isn't your best friend or significant other solely because of their personal qualities. Ron has been as good of a friend to Harry as Harry is to Ron. Outsiders can't possibly judge the strength of someone else's friendship or love. Judging others isn't a good thing. I'm glad Harry doesn't do it to Ron.



Sir Tornado - Aug 16, 2004 2:19 am (#988 of 1957)

I agree with Germini. Archangel, it's really disheartening to see Owen leaving. I thought McManaman would be the last of the Liverpool-Real Madrid transfers. Now, I think I must start supporting Man Utd.



Good Evans - Aug 16, 2004 10:10 am (#989 of 1957)

I'm with Gemini - I thought Ron was a good friend to harry in OotP. harry was certainly testing patience. Actually I didn't like Harry for a lot of it adn kept hoiping he would grow up! Ron has come in for a lot of stick but I think he is a true and loyal friend. I just hope he isn't permanently damaged after the brains - his behaviour was bizarre in the extreme.

As for Marietta - actually I have some sympathy for her position whcih I have laready posted on her thread. She madea mistake bowing to extreme parental pressure IMHO.

my delete button is playing up so sorry for the typos



Gemini Wolfie - Aug 16, 2004 10:42 am (#990 of 1957)

Thanks for the support guys. In her Edinburgh Q&A, JKR says she's a bit like Hermione and a bit like Harry, but really a combination of Hermione, Harry, and Ron. Since she also names Ron as one of her favourite characters, I really don't think she wants us to hate Ron in any way no matter his flaws. Ron is just Ron. It's hard to hate a friend who is always truthful with you even when he's mad or criticizing you.



Kasse - Aug 16, 2004 10:45 am (#991 of 1957)

I definitely do not think she wants us to hate Ron. The characters IMO that she wants up to hate are the Malfoys and I guess to some extent Snape judging from her comments.



Paulus Maximus - Aug 16, 2004 2:34 pm (#992 of 1957)

Why Snape? Oops... wrong thread... I'll discuss this on the Snape thread...



Hermy-own - Aug 20, 2004 1:50 pm (#993 of 1957)
Edited Aug 20, 2004 2:51 pm

"The characters IMO that she wants up to hate are the Malfoys and I guess to some extent Snape" - Kasse

Hem Hem...what about Umbridge?

"I definitely do not think she wants us to hate Ron." - Kasse

Agreed. At worst, JKR does not want us to have high expectations of him, as we do for Hermione. But for whatever Ron lacks, he certainly makes up for in...loyalty, for instance. I would be very suprised if Ron intentionally betrays anyone on his side - Harry, Hermione, his family (no, sorry Percy, you don't count!), the DA, Gryffindor house...



Sir Tornado - Aug 20, 2004 7:35 pm (#994 of 1957)

But for whatever Ron lacks, he certainly makes up for in...loyalty, for instance. -- Hermy-own

Sorry Hermy, but you can't boast about Ron's loyalty any more. Hermione's much more loyal.



S.E. Jones - Aug 20, 2004 8:08 pm (#995 of 1957)

Tornedo: Sorry Hermy, but you can't boast about Ron's loyalty any more. Hermione's much more loyal.

In your opinion, Tornedo, but remember everyone is entitled to their own.



Weeny Owl - Aug 20, 2004 8:47 pm (#996 of 1957)

I'm rereading OotP, and one thing I've noticed about our Ronald is his perseverance. No matter how much he felt like quitting, he stuck it out and kept right on playing Quidditch. No matter how much torment he received from the Slytherins, he kept going.

I think that shows such a positive side of Ron's nature. It can't be easy to keep slogging along under such circumstances, yet he did.



Time Traveler - Aug 20, 2004 9:31 pm (#997 of 1957)
Edited Aug 20, 2004 10:32 pm

Weeny Owl, I think he continually tried to quit Quidditch, but rejected by other members, the captain.. and Harry..
However, I don't think he was playing Quidditch that unwillingly. He really wanted to do it at least at the beginning and if he had really wanted to throw it away, he could simply not have gone practicing anymore..

So, what I want to say is that his stronger merit is keeping his friends very trustworthy and loyal to him.:-)



Archangel - Aug 20, 2004 10:12 pm (#998 of 1957)

I agree with Time Traveler. Ron couldn't quit Quidditch because Angelina won't let him. He was very down on himself and Harry did his best to cheer him up even though it pained him not to be playing Quidditch.

Was it just me that got the impression that he got a bit big-headed when he won the Quidditch Cup for Gryffindor? There were passages in OoP that said that he kept messing up his hair and telling anyone who would listen of his saves. Harry never acted like that when he won the Quidditch Cup and for each game that he won for that matter. Those actions reminded me of James in Snape's memory... :-/



Time Traveler - Aug 20, 2004 10:46 pm (#999 of 1957)
Edited Aug 20, 2004 11:47 pm

Oh, yeah, those reminded Harry of James, too. He smiled at the scene and Ron did asked why he was smiling. Well, this is very interesting to me, because Harry had been very awkward at his Father but smiled at his friend. This is a very significant change of attitude, I think.

Well? I got the same impression of Archangel, but also same feeling of Harry. A bit big-headed Ron didn't seem that ugly.. ;-) He was also somewhat big-headed when he became prefect, but I don't want to blame him because I know well about his lack of self-confidence. He needs to get some achievements more..



S.E. Jones - Aug 20, 2004 10:52 pm (#1000 of 1957)

His bigheadedness didn't last long. Just paragraphs after Harry describes him looking like James, he describes Ron's newly ruffled hair going a bit limp (i.e. his head deflaiting) when he found out his friends didn't witness his claim to fame. There is no comment of Ron's head re-inflaiting after that.

I get the very distinct impression that Ron tried to quit the team, not because he felt he was bad or was being embarrassed, but because he didn't want to be the one to let the team down....

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Archangel - Aug 20, 2004 10:58 pm (#1001 of 1957)

I agree with your last line S.E. IMO, Ron seems to be a bit afraid of responsibility.

Do you think that the fact Harry and Hermione didn't witness Ron's shining moment would play big in the upcoming books? In OoP, it was brushed so quickly with Harry and Hermione's story of Gwarp. Seems a bit abrupt... too abrupt for me...



Weeny Owl - Aug 20, 2004 11:04 pm (#1002 of 1957)

My point wasn't that he didn't want to quit but that regardless of what he was going through, he still stuck it out. He very may well have wanted to quit more than anything, but it isn't his doubts that matter... it's that he stayed the course and succeeded.

I think that shows a very positive side of him.



Gemini Wolfie - Aug 21, 2004 12:00 am (#1003 of 1957)

Tornedo, I feel compelled to type out another response in regards to Ron's loyalty.

Excuse me for saying this, but I think you have a very strict personal sense of what loyalty means to you that I don't think necessarily applies to Harry. I will not argue that Hermione is more loyal to Harry than Ron is, I will only say that they exhibit different types of loyalty. Not to sound sexist, but it is true that girls tend to be more understanding and guys tend to show loyalty in different ways. When Hermione told McGonagall about Harry's firebolt, Harry felt betrayed. You might think that Hermione was right to do so and did it cause she cared about Harry but to Harry, even though he may have understood Hermione's intentions, it doesn't change the fact that had to part with his firebolt. It is in Hermione's character to place a premium on safety and the same reason she had to tell someone about the firebolt despite Harry's wishes, she was also able to understand and believe Harry during the Triwizard tournament. Besides the fact that she firmly believed in DD's magical capabilities, her worry about Harry's safety is one reason why Hermione didn't care whether Harry had a crack at the 1000 galleons, she cared more about whether Harry was safe. It would be in her character to worry about the deaths that she read and heard about suffered throughout the history of the Triwizard tournament. There's also no doubt that Hermione is more intelligent and more observative than Ron is. She saw the look on DD's face and since she didn't personally care about fame and fortune like Ron, she also didn't place much value in it. She would more readily believe a plot against Harry than Harry caring about the gold. And in reality, because Hermione and Harry(at least in the wizarding world) are relatively wealthly, money to them is much less tempting as it is to Ron.

And if I daresay, I think most relationships that end in marriage, to my knowledge, usually involved a breakup or a big fight in the past. But it would be wrong for married couples to question each other's loyalty because of what happened in the past.

Harry did think badly of Ron even though he checked himself and didn't show it to Ron. Is that what you call loyalty? Thinking badly of a friend? Point is that all three of them have done things that weren't exactly loyal but they forgive and they forget. That's what friends, loyal friends do.

About Ron wanting to quit the Quidditch team. He might be embarassed by his performance, but it also takes a lot of guts and pride to take himself out of the game or off the team. But yes, the fact that he stayed in there and was able to deliver a clutch performance to win the Quidditch Cup tells a lot.



weasley by nature - Aug 21, 2004 2:11 am (#1004 of 1957)

I think that the reason that Harry smiled when Ron acted like James is that he realized that James isn't a bad person just because he acted a little cocky in the penseive scene. He recognized that Ron sometimes acted like James did but that he still liked Ron and that Ron was still a good person, just a flawed person.

Just because Harry never acted big-headed when he won Quidditch matches doesn't mean that Harry is any better than Ron. Harry has his own flaws too. Ron never gets any attention and so when he does it is hard for him to hide how pleased with himself he is. I got the same feeling as Time Traveler, Ron was adorable! He finally felt like he had done something worthy of attention and he was all happy, aww Smile



Hermy-own - Aug 21, 2004 5:31 am (#1005 of 1957)

"I will not argue that Hermione is more loyal to Harry than Ron is, I will only say that they exhibit different types of loyalty." - Gemini

Quote of the day goes to Gemini Wolfie!

Tornedo, I understand why you may believe Hermione is more loyal than Ron, but I don't think Ron's loyalty should be understimated.

Has he not always stood by Harry? Was it not he who jumped to Hermione's defence after Malfoy called her a mudblood in CoS (even though his spell backfired, with comic results)? His reactions to Percy's betrayal of the Weasley family, as well as Marrietta's betrayal of the DA, also suggests loyalty is something he values/expects.



Aurora Gubbins - Aug 22, 2004 2:27 am (#1006 of 1957)

I think Ron is going to become the person he saw in The Mirror of Erised. He is now a prefect (on the way to becoming head boy?) and the goalkeeper in the house quiddich team (on the way to becoming Captain and holding up the quiddich cup?) How many others have concluded this? (I confess to not having read the whole thread - much to my shame!)



Time Traveler - Aug 22, 2004 3:05 am (#1007 of 1957)
Edited Aug 22, 2004 4:05 am

Aurora Gubbins, I think I saw a post that gave a very similar idea with you, but I don't think there was a concrete conclusion about it. So don't be ashamed.. There are almost one thousand posts here! (As a comparable new-comer, I haven't read all of these, too.. hmm.)



weasley by nature - Aug 22, 2004 3:10 am (#1008 of 1957)

I seriously doubt Ron will be Head Boy. Ron wasn't even the best candidate for Gryffindor prefect, surely a prefect from a different house or Harry will become Head Boy.

As for Ron as the Quidditch captain, it's possible because he's really familiar with the game and is good at chess which involves strategy. But Harry has more years of experience on the team and is more of a leader. It's possible, but he sucked until the last match so you can't expect him to be a very popular choice for captain.



Sir Tornado - Aug 22, 2004 3:20 am (#1009 of 1957)
Edited Aug 22, 2004 4:23 am

I'm rereading OotP, and one thing I've noticed about our Ronald is his perseverance. No matter how much he felt like quitting, he stuck it out and kept right on playing Quidditch. No matter how much torment he received from the Slytherins, he kept going. -- Weeny Owl

Weeny, you are mistaken there. Ron offered to resign from the team at least twice. I think Angelina was the one who was persuassive. In fact, I feel Angelina has a personality like Arsene Wenger, who motivates her players and keeps them going. Had someonelike Wood been the captain, Ron wouldn't've been in the team for the third match.

Edit: At last, I got to post the 1000th message somewhere.



The One - Aug 22, 2004 3:32 am (#1010 of 1957)

I think Ron is going to become the person he saw in The Mirror of Erised.

I doubt it, partly because it is unrealistic, he does not have the confidence for either, and I do not expect him to mature that much in one book.

And remember: The mirror gives us "neither knowledge nor truth."

But mostly I doubt it because it will ruin the character. Ron is a very normal boy, he is no super hero, even if he wants to be one. His weak points are insecurity and jealousy. The way to make him grow is to let him accept himself for what he is, not to make him into something that he is not.

The latter will only serve to send the message that Ron was right all the time: he was not good enough, and needed to change to be happy.



Time Traveler - Aug 22, 2004 4:03 am (#1011 of 1957)
Edited Aug 22, 2004 5:04 am

I also think the Head Boy Ron seems not very possible at least now. I'll be pleased if Harry will become the Head Boy, hmm, but for that we need Dumbledore to feel freer than now..:-)

And weasley by nature, I like your insight; "As for Ron as the Quidditch captain, it's possible because he's really familiar with the game and is good at chess which involves strategy."

However, I'm not very sure about Harry's becoming the captain. When I see(?) Quidditch game, the captains shout advices and urges to their players all the time. As a Seeker, this job seems somewhat difficult and disturbing for Harry.



The One - Aug 22, 2004 4:45 am (#1012 of 1957)

When I see(?) Quidditch game, the captains shout advices and urges to their players all the time.

Cederic Digoroy was seeker and captain. Angelina was Chaser and captain. Oliver was keeper and captain. In Gwenog Jones is mentioned in the lexicon as beater and captain of the Holyhead Harpies.

I do not think we can use such considerations to predict the next captain.

The two obvious choices are either Harry or Katie, if for any reason neither of them are chosen, Ginny seems to have the confidence Ron lacks.

Bet Ron are going to love that, if that happens!



Steve Newton - Aug 22, 2004 5:36 am (#1013 of 1957)

I think that Ron is a lock to be Head Boy.

He's a prefect, Harry will be very busy staying alive, and we have already seen a new Ron as soon as the twins left. Ron's growth has just started. I think that he will be the star, after Harry, of HBP.




Gemini Wolfie - Aug 22, 2004 5:37 am (#1014 of 1957)

Thanks hermy-own. I agree with your points as well.

Next year's Quidditch captain will probably be Katie. It'll just make it much easier and put the whole Ron or Harry scenario back another year. Harry definitely doesn't need that added burden or worry at this point in time and Ron is definitely not ready for the captainship yet. Katie can at least train the two new chasers.

I think Ron as Quidditch captain and Harry as headboy will make sense. Ron knows about Quidditch more than Harry does, and in the next school year, Ron might prove to be quite a capable keeper which would seal his captainship. Harry might simply emerge as the most prominent student and brightest male student and I don't think Ron will be jealous considering that he's Quidditch captain and Harry would most likely have emerged as truely superior in wizarding abilities by then. And besides, I think Ron cares more about Quidditch. Then again, even if Ron becomes captain and headboy, Harry might not care so much by then and probably don't want that kind of responsibility. Perhaps DD would ask Harry whether he'll be up to being a headboy and Harry might simply say give it to Ron.

I agree that Ron lacked confidence. It is certainly something he needs to develop. But remember that in the Quidditch final, after his first save he started gaining confidence and ultimately played a big role in team's victory. He tried taking the easy way out by resigning from the team at first, that is undeniable, but he learned to preservere. He could have easily have given up after the first goal, but he didn't; at least in that game, he demonstrated preserverence and confidence. Remember that he is a Weasley afterall, and from what we have seen of his brothers and even Ginny, he may have a lot of potential. I think Ron has untapped potential. He has already exhibited his leadership skills (note chess skills), he does have the cockiness/confidence (it's a fine line) in him (his boasting skills aren't too far off from Fred and George right? and he knows what he is doing in chess), he has also shown boldness and bravery. The Ron right now in terms of wizarding abilities and confidence is not the equal to his brothers. There's a long way to go before Ron can, in his own way, be considered as brilliant as his brothers. But it's never too late to develop. Angelina took a chance at Ron believing in his potential based on the play of his older brothers. None of the Weasley brothers we know (even Percy) are incompetent. Ron will make his mark.



Hermy-own - Aug 22, 2004 5:46 am (#1015 of 1957)
Edited Aug 22, 2004 6:50 am

Good leadership skills are proabably the most important feature for a captain, certainly more important than the player's position on the team. However, the nature of the Seeker's role on a Quidditch team prevents her/him getting fully involved in the "real" game. Each time Harry catches himself following the Quaffle he quickly reminds himself to concentrate on locating the Snitch.
That is why I don't think Harry should be captain; he is not in the best position to influence his players.

Ron does not have the confidence or leadership qualities you would expect from a captain. On the other hand, he played very well in that last match and it might just be the boost he needs for his self-confidence. We may be seeing a different Ron in HBP, who knows?

EDIT:
Steve posted just before me:
Yes, Steve, Ron definitely showed signs of development in OotP. Hopefully it will continue into HBP.



The One - Aug 22, 2004 6:00 am (#1016 of 1957)

Ron knows about Quidditch more than Harry does,..

How do you know this? Harry has been the star player of the team since he started school, why do you assume that Ron know more about tha game than Harry. It is like assuming that a random soccer fan knows more about the game than say Beckham.

I think Ron cares more about Quidditch.

Again I fail to see how you know this.

He has already exhibited his leadership skills

How?

The most important thing about a leader is confidence. He has none. He did not seem to be a great prefect, not standing up against he brothers, forgetting his duties, and of course "Hey midgets!". He also complains about first years being rude. This seems to indicate that they does not respect him as they ought to.

Remember that he is a Weasley after all, and from what we have seen of his brothers and even Ginny, he may have a lot of potential.

Aha! Bloodline is the key!

But to be serious: He does have a lot of potential as a keeper, but as a captain?

There's a long way to go before Ron can, in his own way, be considered as brilliant as his brothers.

Why does he have to be? Someone has to be the least brilliant of the siblings. Why not Ron? That does not mean that he is incompetent or worthless, just that he is normal, while everyone around him is extraordinary.

If you guys love Ron so much, why do you want to change him? Why is it impossible to love him for what he is?



Hermy-own - Aug 22, 2004 6:28 am (#1017 of 1957)
Edited Aug 22, 2004 7:32 am

"If you guys love Ron so much, why do you want to change him? Why is it impossible to love him for what he is?"
- The One

The One, I think that Ron's fans do love him for what he is. Their sympathy for his insecurity and lack of confidence leads them, innocently I might add, to wish better for him (for his own sake more than anything)
There have been suggestions in the recent books (GoF, OotP) that Ron's character is developing. Naturally, any Ron fan would interpret such suggestions optimistically. This probably explains the recent batch of posts you are referring to.
Your point still stands though - we should accept Ron despite his weaknesses.

EDIT:
Sorry, very off-topic, but The One you may be glad to hear they're doing two more Matrix films.



The One - Aug 22, 2004 6:52 am (#1018 of 1957)
Edited Aug 22, 2004 8:08 am

Their sympathy for his insecurity and lack of confidence leads them, innocently I might add, to wish better for him (for his own sake more than anything)

Yes, I can understand this, and my post may perhaps come through as a little aggressive, and that is not the intention.

The only thing wrong about Ron is is insecurity and jealousy. This has created problems for him, and may or may not do so in later books. I see signs that it will create problems, but anyhow in the end i think Ron will come through as a loyal friend and a valuable asset for Harry, Hermione and the other good guys.

It is just that it will somehow lessen the books for me if Ron turns out to be a super hero of some kind, because then all important heros are extraordinary, and the book is in danger of telling you that normal people are boring, uninteresting or harmful. Ron is a very much needed touch of normality in the picture, and I want him to remain so, and accept himself as such and to succeed as such.

As you will see, my wishes are somewhat more governed by what I think serves the story that what I thinks serves Ron. It is a bit cynical, but I hope you will forgive me for that.

It has been discussed elsewhere that of the trio members, Ron is the one most likely to die. I am worried by some signs that indicate that he might die, and made posts to that effect, but even if I am worried, in my heart I do not think that he will die, because that would more or less mark the normal guy as expendable, and I hope that that is not what JKR is going to tell us.

I hope this made sense to you, even if you do not need to agree.

PS. And isn't the reason that so many people love Ron exactly that he is so normal? One thing is to wish for him to improve immensely, but if he do, would he be so lovable afterwards?

Do you really, deep down, want to get your wish fulfilled?



The One - Aug 22, 2004 7:01 am (#1019 of 1957)
Edited Aug 22, 2004 8:15 am

Sorry, very off-topic, but The One you may be glad to hear they're doing two more Matrix films.

Number 4 and 5? I did not know that.

Of course the problem with this is that the first one is the real good one, 2 and 3 are more average. But perhaps they will improve..

Hoping :-) The effecs and universe are cool, so as long as they find a good story to go along..



Hermy-own - Aug 22, 2004 7:35 am (#1020 of 1957)

The One, your post makes sense to me and I agree with everything you say.

If Ron does die, I think it would be during an act of loyalty e.g. saving Harry's life (we saw him come to Hermione's defence in the CoS slugs scene). This is the only way I see him dying, any other way would suggest that the normal guy is expendable.
Best scenario for me: he does'nt die

EDIT:
The One, I heard about the new Matrix on Houston radio but I can't find anything on the web



S.E. Jones - Aug 22, 2004 8:12 am (#1021 of 1957)
Edited Aug 22, 2004 9:14 am

I'm a little confused as to why jealous equals normal. Everyone has something they are good at. This doesn't mean they are extraordinary in any way, just that they are accomplished in some area (whether it be chess or Quidditch, or both). A person doesn't have to stay jealous or never have confidence. These are traits that can, and do, change with time and cognitive choices for a person's betterment. I don't see why Ron has to stay completely static as a character to stay normal. Everyone grows in real life, why is so outrageous to think that Ron could grow in this series? He was only 15 at the beginning of the book, and 16 at the end. Most all people go through changes at this point in time, developing who they are, who they will become.

I'm afraid I just don't see your reasoning....



Hermy-own - Aug 22, 2004 8:59 am (#1022 of 1957)
Edited Aug 22, 2004 10:17 am

I'm afraid I just don't see your reasoning....
S.E. Jones

In previous posts, e.g. #1006, I stated that Ron's character is developing for the better (for instance, he is gaining self-confidence).
I, personally, do not think that Ron is any less (or more) of a person than Harry, Hermione or any other character based on any of his characterisitcs. Some posts on this thread (not mine) have suggested that Ron will be the one to die because he is the weakest (or least extraordinary) of the trio. That's the first thing I wanted to say.

Secondly, Sarah, I'm assuming you were confused about the following quote:

"This is the only way I see him dying, any other way would suggest that the normal guy is expendable."
my most recent post (emphasis new)

If so, I can see why it caused confusion.
Rephrase to:

"This is the only way I see him dying, any other way might lead some to incorrectly attribute his death to incompetence"

Hope that makes things better? I can't believe I didn't see the mistakes on re-reading my post. Thanks anyway, Sarah!

EDIT:
Ooops! I got that link wrong - it's supposed to be this post. (At least I spotted the mistake this time round!)



S.E. Jones - Aug 22, 2004 9:23 am (#1023 of 1957)

Actually, no. I wasn't referring to that post, or to any points regarding whether Ron is going to die. I was enganging the argument brought up before it that Ron is jealous and lacks confidence and this is what makes him normal and thus these qualities should be accepted.



The One - Aug 22, 2004 9:24 am (#1024 of 1957)

I have never said that jealous equals normal, I have said that Ron is very normal, those closest to him are extraordinary, and that makes him jealous. GoF tells us that. It is controversial whether or not that problem will resurface, but it is a fact that it has surfaced.

Bu normal I mean that most people are fairly good in a lot of things but do not excel in anything. And this is the kind of guy I think Ron is. And this is the kind of person I think the story needs.



Chris. - Aug 22, 2004 9:26 am (#1025 of 1957)

Ron, IMO, is the most normal of the characters in the HP series. But jealousy is a part of life, the matter is wether the person, in this case, Ron chooses to act on it, against his will (under an Imperious Curse) or not.



S.E. Jones - Aug 22, 2004 9:32 am (#1026 of 1957)
Edited Aug 22, 2004 10:32 am

Well, we already know that Ron excells in Chess, so what does that tell us? Him being good, even very good, at Quidditch then doesn't seem like that much of a stretch to me. His brothers all seem very normal in comparison to the other characters in the story, yet we know that Charlie was good enough at Quidditch to play professionally, Fred and George were human bludgers themselves.... Perhaps it comes from growing up in a state where a sport gets the center of attention in every school, but here it isn't that odd to find an entire family that excells at a given sport, especially where practice and determination are involved.



Chris. - Aug 22, 2004 9:41 am (#1027 of 1957)

Yes, but Ron seems to have the knowledge in the most logical sport, rather than more of a physical one.



Weeny Owl - Aug 22, 2004 9:41 am (#1028 of 1957)

I'm rereading OotP, and one thing I've noticed about our Ronald is his perseverance. No matter how much he felt like quitting, he stuck it out and kept right on playing Quidditch. No matter how much torment he received from the Slytherins, he kept going. -- Weeny Owl

Weeny, you are mistaken there. Ron offered to resign from the team at least twice. -- Tornedo

Actually, Tornedo, I am not mistaken about this at all.

The definition of persevere: to persist in a state, enterprise, or undertaking in spite of counterinfluences, opposition, or discouragement

It doesn't matter how many times Ron offered to leave the team or even wanted to leave the team. The fact remains that no matter how much he had to tolerate from the Slytherins, he didn't quit.

It's the same principle as courage. Having courage doesn't mean one is never afraid; it means that regardless of any fears, one stays the course.

Ron continued playing Quidditch under extreme negative conditions, and that is perseverance.

As for Ron or Harry being Head Boy, I can see JKR giving that position to either of them or to a boy from another house. A lot will depend on how each character develops in the sixth book.



The One - Aug 22, 2004 9:43 am (#1029 of 1957)

Well, we already know that Ron excells in Chess, so what does that tell us?

That he is good at chess?

Him being good, even very good, at Quidditch then doesn't seem like that much of a stretch to me.

I do not think so, but that is not really the point. Ron may very well excel in Quidditch, but I detest the idea that he need to do so in order to be a good boy. And I feel very strongly that the story need a central character that do not excel but are just an ordinary school boy. This is Ron's role, and I will be very disappointed by JKR if that changes. But as I read the signs that is not likely to happen.

Sorry.



S.E. Jones - Aug 22, 2004 10:06 am (#1030 of 1957)

My point was that he is already is an ordinary school boy and he already excells (chess), thus having him be good at Quidditch doesn't change anything. He'll still be an ordinary boy who just happens to be good at both chess and Quidditch. So what?

The qualities that Harry possesses that make him "stand apart from the crowd" are hardly going to be dented by some Quidditch skills, so I don't see how this would change Ron's status from "ordinary" to "extraordinary".

(My other point was that, in my home state, I've seen many families produce "average Joes" that all happen to excell in a sport, then go off into some average job somewhere. There's a difference between excelling and being good enough to play professionally. Besides, sport skills aren't necessarily a qualifier of the extraordinary.)



Hermy-own - Aug 22, 2004 10:16 am (#1031 of 1957)

"I was engagingthe argument brought up before it that Ron is jealous and lacks confidence and this is what makes him normal and thus these qualities should be accepted."
- Sarah

Yes, I also fail to see the reasoning behind that particular arguement.

I must have been ambiguous about the notion of "accepting weaknesses" in a previous post, hence the need to write this one. If so, what I meant was we must accept a person in spite of their weaknesses. I certainly did not mean to say: Ron is unconfident, therefore he is only normal in comparison to the extraordinary Hermione.

What makes Ron normal are not the weaknesses mentioned above but the fact that he has both strengths and weaknesses. The same can be said for Hermione, Harry and every other Potterverse character - they're all normal in that sense. Someone without a weakness would NOT be normal, but you'll never find such a person (well not in Potterverse anyway!)

The fact that Ron lacks self-confidence or gets jealous does not make him any less of a person. Neither does it mean he doomed to remain that way for life. It is okay for him to have those weaknesses because there will always be scope for change/improvement. Is that not what we start to see in GoF? If not, he certainly shows signs of it after that final quidditch match in OotP. And who knows what changes are due in HBP?

Hope I cleared it up this time? (fingers crossed...)



The One - Aug 22, 2004 10:16 am (#1032 of 1957)

My point was that he is already is an ordinary school boy and he already excells (chess), thus having him be good at Quidditch doesn't change anything.

OK, I see what you mean, but still I would assume Quidditch gives more status than chess.

But nevertheless, my prediction is that Ron is neither going to be Quidditch captain, nor Head Boy. It does not fit what I sees as his purpose in the book if gets any of these positions.

I think I have made my point, we will just have to wait and see.



Weeny Owl - Aug 22, 2004 10:33 am (#1033 of 1957)

One thing we have to remember about all the kids at the Department of Mysteries battle is that what happened there is going to affect them somehow.

Who knows what the brains will do to Ron. We may see profound changes in him in HBP.

I can see Ron as Quidditch Captain eventually, but I can also see Harry or Ginny or even another player. At this point JKR could do pretty much anything.

As for Ron's jealousy, who hasn't been jealous about something or someone? I certainly have. Everyone has things they're insecure about, things they wish were different, and things that they feel will make them happy. Ron isn't perfect, Harry isn't, Hermione isn't, and even Dumbledore isn't.



S.E. Jones - Aug 22, 2004 10:34 am (#1034 of 1957)
Edited Aug 22, 2004 11:35 am

The One: OK, I see what you mean, but still I would assume Quidditch gives more status than chess.

Ah, so "extraordinary" is a social status qualification?

Hermy-own brings up some good points, perhaps we need to redefine our working terms for "ordinary", "normal", "extraordinary", etc.



Chris. - Aug 22, 2004 10:34 am (#1035 of 1957)

The brain scene in the DoM always worried me. Who do the brains belong too? Death Eaters?



The One - Aug 22, 2004 11:00 am (#1036 of 1957)

Ah, so "extraordinary" is a social status qualification?

Of course it is, what else should it be? We are all unique, what matters in this context is to be unique in a way that gives status in some sense.

In PS Ron complaints about his brothers. I do not have the books here, but it goes something like:

"I have a lot to live up to: Bill was a head boy, Charlie was Quidditch captain, now Percy is made Perfect, Fred and George mess round a lot, but they still get good marks and everyone think they are really funny. And if I do make it good, it is nothing, because they did it first."

He compares himself to the things his brothers have done that is recognized. He does not brag about his chess playing abilities. Probably because that is not recognized in the same way. If there had been some sort of school chess championship that he could win, things would have been different, but no such thing is mentioned.

And Hermione explains the GoF fallout by the fact that Harry gets all the attention.

Of course what makes "status" depends on who and what he wants to impress. Some thing he do will be recognized by Harry, other thing may be appreciated by Hermione, some thing would be valued by his parents while others things makes him famous in the society as a hole. But it is all about being recognized.



The One - Aug 22, 2004 11:04 am (#1037 of 1957)

The brain scene in the DoM always worried me. Who do the brains belong too? Death Eaters?

I have not got any idea at all, but it must be important in some way. Just do not know how.



schoff - Aug 22, 2004 5:44 pm (#1038 of 1957)

Aurora Gubbins: I think Ron is going to become the person he saw in The Mirror of Erised....How many others have concluded this?

Me too.

Prongs: The brain scene in the DoM always worried me. Who do the brains belong too? Death Eaters?

I doubt it. Their brains aren't really worth saving. They most likely belong to former great thinkers (ala Einstein, Flamel) or really really vile leaders (Hitler, Grindelwald).



Gemini Wolfie - Aug 22, 2004 11:10 pm (#1039 of 1957)
Edited Aug 23, 2004 12:11 am

Harry has been the star player of the team since he started school, why do you assume that Ron know more about tha game than Harry. It is like assuming that a random soccer fan knows more about the game than say Beckham.

Harry was the star player because of his natural abilities and not for his knowledge of the game. Ron has been exposed to Quidditch for many years, while Harry can count the number of times he has seen Quidditch being played outside of school with one hand I bet. A lot of players dominate junior/HS/college leagues due to their physical talents and fail in the pros because their fundamentals and knowledge of the game is deficient. Scotty Bowman, considered the best coach in the NHL has NEVER played a game in the NHL. Dean Smith, considered one of the best coaches in basketball history never played in the pros. Phil Jackson played in the NBA, but he was no star. The list goes on. Playing ability does not equate to knowledge of the game.

The One... I said I "think" Ron cares more about Quidditch than school honours, I did not say I know. It is entirely my thinking although I think there's good evidence to argue my point.

He exhibited leadership in the chess game. He was the commander. If he wasn't the leader of the trio at that point then I don't know what leadership is. I do know that there are also many different kinds of leadership. You can be a leader even if you're the worst player. When Ron feels comfortable about his role and importance on the team, we might see him make some suggestions and that would be exerting his influence and his leadership. Leadership is something that is in you but it's also something that can be developed. Defering to someone else also does not mean one lacks leadership.

Instead of asking why Ron must be brilliant why not ask why Ron must be ordinary? He is an ordinary boy in the sense that he is carefree and fun-loving but he is really not an ordinary boy nor does he want to be. That sounds so much like an insult. Ron doesn't want to be ordinary. He wants to be brilliant just like his brothers. Why can't you accept that? Ron might end up being "ordinary" in terms of Quidditch and wizarding abilities but if he's an extraordinary friend and an extraordinary brother and an extraordinary husband would that make him ordinary? I don't think so. Like most of us, Ron has hopes and dreams. He doesn't want to settle for being ordinary and I hope he doesn't, because that's not what he is. What he is is what he chooses to be and not what anyone thinks he is.



Eponine - Aug 23, 2004 4:43 am (#1040 of 1957)

Well said, Gemini Wolfie!



The One - Aug 23, 2004 7:16 am (#1041 of 1957)
Edited Aug 23, 2004 8:34 am

Dumbledore says that it is the choices that define what we really are, not our abilities. But that is not entirely true, we are a combination of choices and abilities, and there is no point in choosing to be something we cannot be.

I want to tell you a story from my family:

A cousin of me, a niece of my father was born into a family with a lot of brilliant brothers. She herself has abilities and intelligence slightly below average, but is a loving and caring woman. She has made herself a living in public service, taking care of children from families with limited resources, not very spectacular or high-wage work, but a work she find rewarding. Her brothers are bankers, stockbrokers and entrepreneurs.

She married a plumber working for a plumber company. This man compared himself to his brothers in law and felt that he was not good enough. He quitted work and started his own company based on plumbing. But he was really a man for the practical work, not a businessman. His company went bankrupt, a lot of problems, both professional and private followed, and today they are divorced.

My cousin and her husband would probably have been much happier had they accepted that neither of them was cut to be the same kind of businesspeople as her brothers. They could have taken orders and wages from their bosses and lived happily caring for their children, but they did not, not because it was anything wrong with them, but because he felt he was not good enough compared to the people around him.

It is stories like this that makes me feel that it is important that fiction also gives the message that many of us are quite ordinary, many of us does never excel in the things that gives status, and that is quite OK. Ron can completely fail to be as brilliant as his brothers, and still be a good boy. Seamus is neither a Quiddich star nor a Head Boy, neither are Dean, Lavender, Neville or Parvati. There is nothing wrong with any of those kids, so why should it be a problem for Ron if he is neither a Quiddich Captain nor a Head Boy? It is a problem only because he compares himself to his brothers and closest friends, which are all brilliant. Ron needs to find his own place in life, independent of what his brothers or friends are or do.

If I read the books right, Ron is not cut to be any of those things, and JKR have made him less gifted then his friends in order to have the function I have outlined. (I see no point in discussing whether he really is less gifted, because I do not think we will agree on that until the last book has arrived. I only want you to agree that there is reasons that might make the author chose to make him so.)

And you are quite right; even if he is neither an extraordinary Head Boy nor an extraordinary Quiddich star he may still be an extraordinary friend, an extraordinary brother, and an extraordinary husband. Everyone has strong points and weak points; perhaps Ron’s strong points are mostly of the kind that gives limited status.

Of course, it would be much cooler for Ron to be a gifted Quiddich Captain then to have to accept that he is not and will never be. But I do not see it as overtly cruel or unfair if this is indeed the role JKR has given him. Harry would never choose the life JKR have given him if he had been asked, but he has to take life as it comes nevertheless, and the same goes for Ron.



Kasse - Aug 23, 2004 7:38 am (#1042 of 1957)

Well said The one - Bravo, take ten points for your house!



Czarina II - Aug 23, 2004 10:27 am (#1043 of 1957)

Good analysis, the One.

I think the only student currently attending Hogwarts that is NOT ordinary is Harry. All of the others are quite normal, even Hermione and Luna. Ron is no different.

But you don't have to BE extraordinary to do extraordinary things. Most people are "extraordinary" by circumstance, not by choice. Harry did not choose to be extraordinary. Dumbledore didn't choose to be extraordinary initially. Voldemort did, yes. Harry is forced to be extraordinary. Everyone else is just along for the ride.

That said, I don't see why Ron would make a bad Quidditch Captain. He is just the kind of guy who gets nervous under pressure, like most of us I'm sure. He does well in practice later in the year and then he eventually shines in the final game. He knows his strategy and he understands the game. All Harry really knows are the basic rules, since all he needs to know are Seeker moves. Theoretically, one could throw someone who knows how to fly and who has good eyesight onto a broom and tell them to catch the Snitch. Harry knows more than that, yes, but he is no strategist. From what I know of sports, the Captain usually has to plan the games. In Quidditch, there is no coach present, so more responsibility falls on the Captain. Harry already has the responsibility of saving the world. He'll want Quidditch for relaxation and distraction. He wouldn't get that as the Captain, as he'd be constantly harried (pun not intended) to plan strategy, rally the players, and lead practice. Ron can do this, although he might need some help. If he is Captain in HbP, he will have settled nicely into it halfway through the book and be completely fine at the end. That is what character development is for.



The One - Aug 23, 2004 1:13 pm (#1044 of 1957)

That said, I don't see why Ron would make a bad Quidditch Captain.

That is just as I read him. I guess we will just have to wait and see.



S.E. Jones - Aug 23, 2004 2:33 pm (#1045 of 1957)
Edited Aug 23, 2004 3:35 pm

Excellent points, Czarina! Bravo.

So, why is Harry so extraordinary? It's his circumstances, isn't it? JKR has said of Harry "he's every boy but with a twist" and I think that describes not only him but also his friends very well. All these kids are ordinary kids in extraordinary circumstances doing extraordinary things on top of their ordinary, daily routines. Harry's twist is the prophecy and Voldemort, hence the story, but they all have little identifying twists of their own: Hermione's is her brains and ethics, Neville's is his quest for courage, Ron's is his loyalty and quest for sense of self, etc. However, deep down all these kids are still ordinary people who manage extraordinary things. I think that's why the story is so endearing.....



Hermy-own - Aug 23, 2004 2:42 pm (#1046 of 1957)

Good posts everyone! Looks like we're getting somewhere on this thread!



The One - Aug 23, 2004 4:16 pm (#1047 of 1957)

Well said The one - Bravo, take ten points for your house!

Points for me?? <blushing>

Thanks!



Gemini Wolfie - Aug 23, 2004 4:51 pm (#1048 of 1957)
Edited by S.E. Jones Aug 23, 2004 6:22 pm

I agree with you Czarina. With Ron being so passionate about Quidditch, I can see him enjoying being captain much more than Harry.

I feel there is a need to distinguish the difference between being normal and being ordinary. Ordinary to me carries somewhat of a bad connotation. I guess I prefer the glass being half full.

The One. I think everyone will tell you that besides having a good business mind, you also need some luck as well. Being an entrepreneur is not easy and business, as always, is a big risk. Even the biggest and most profitable companies can turn in a big loss in less than a year due to market changes etc.

I think that instead of fiction giving us the message that many of us are quite ordinary, I think it's better if they give us the message that the heroes in our stories are not so much different from us; that we can accomplish similiar things. Quoting from Spiderman, there's a hero in all of us.

Harry admitted himself that he was no better than Ron in lessons. Not that it proves that Ron is as good as Harry but Ron certainly does some things better than Harry. Neville was perhaps the biggest surprise in OotP. He worked extremely hard and impressed most of us because he wouldn't settle to being a plain ordinary Neville. There have been many instances where Harry finds help and comfort from those he least expects. We really should not judge someone to be ordinary because it really is unfair. Take the Order of Phoenix... not everyone in it is a powerful wizard. In fact, Mrs. Figg is a squib. The people in the order joined the Order because they wanted to help in whatever capacity they can. There comes a time when we do have to accept reality, that's why we try to compensate in other ways. Knowing your limits is good, but pushing yourself to be the best that you can be is also good. I don't know whether your cousin supported her ex-husband's business plans, I assume that she like Mrs. Weasley worried a lot. I have no doubt that Mrs. Weasley would rather her sons not be in the Order, but she knows that what they are doing is of good intentions even if it meant risking their lives. What your cousin's ex-husband did was understandable and probably admirable. It is unfortunate that it did not work out. Can you imagine Fred and George's business going bankrupt? If their joke shop doesn't work out, they are pretty out of luck. It is unfortunate that the society we live in is judgemental and many times, forces us to take risks that we otherwise wouldn't take. Remember that the Harry Potter books were rejected by several publishers. I'm sure there was someone, perhaps in JKR's life, who thought she was better off accepting the fact that she may not have the abilities of getting her work published. If I win the lottery, guess how many people would think of me as extraordinary marriage material Razz



Archangel - Aug 23, 2004 5:16 pm (#1049 of 1957)

"Being average is the worst. You are the worst among the best and the best among the worst."

Granted, we can't all be the best in everything, this doesn't mean that we can't be the best at something. Ron isn't an exception to that. Having said that, I still don't think Ron will be good enough to be the Quidditch captain because he seems a bit reluctant to take responsibility. I would love for Ginny to be Gryffindor's captain after all she's in the 5th year and Wood was in his 5th year when Harry first joined the team. She just seems to exhibit a more "take charge" attitude than Ron and she has proven that she got incredible skills as well, even if she's not playing her natural position.



Robert Dierken - Aug 23, 2004 7:07 pm (#1050 of 1957)

I don't think that Albert Einstein's brain was at the DoM, since we know that most of it is still stored in Princeton, New Jersey!

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Gemini Wolfie - Aug 23, 2004 8:20 pm (#1051 of 1957)

Some of you guys are basing the captaincy in Ron's 7th year too much on his 5th year's performance. If I am to pick a captain now, I would pick Katie Bell and then Harry. But we don't know how Ron is to perform in his 6th year. He might actually prove to be a very capable keeper. With that comes confidence and as we've seen, he has no problem taking charge of first year's. He has no problem expressing his opinion to Ginny. So besides Harry, it's easy to assume that he'll have no problem taking charge of the team. The Ron we know as of now easily shrinks away when he thinks he sucks but he's also not a shy boaster when he thinks he's done good. If he thinks he's the 2nd or even 3rd best on the team, he'll have no problems exerting his authority on the others. In sports the captain isn't the only one who plays the role of leader, you usually have a few. We saw that Angelina wasn't afraid to speak her mind to Wood and neither did Fred and George. I was on my school soccer team. I kept my mouth shut in my first year. In my final year, I was expected to lead and so I was more vocal. It's natural to defer to your seniors. But when you're the senior, you'll be forced to take upon more of a leadership role and I don't think Ron will disappoint.



The One - Aug 24, 2004 1:35 am (#1052 of 1957)

Knowing your limits is good, but pushing yourself to be the best that you can be is also good.

I agree on that and see your point. There are different points the author may want to make with a story. But my feeling is that that is not the way JKR is going.

I wonder if this is some kind of culture clash. It may be that this is "good old European social democratic" thinking vs. "The American dream". Both ways of thinking have their merits. We will just have to wait and see what kind of thinking JKR have employed while planning her story.



Fawkes - Aug 24, 2004 10:32 am (#1053 of 1957)

I think Ron getting Quidditch Captain is a very good possibility, but I do think that Katie Bell is due up for their sixth year. She's got seniority and all, you know.

And I'd like to say...if Ron dies I will be horribly upset, and most likely send a very stern letter to JKR.



Paul Filippelli - Aug 24, 2004 11:33 am (#1054 of 1957)

I think McGonagall wouldn't give Captaincy to the person she feels is best because the others would feel bad. She probably just gives it to the oldest person so no one gets their feelings hurt. Wood was the oldest in the first 3 years, and Angelina is the oldest in the 5th year (we learn this in GoF). I assume Katie is the oldest because she is a 7th year, but it could possibly be Ron (he turns 17 in March). Ron is the oldest of the 6th years, so he would probably be next in line. I, however, am a proponent of the opinion that Ron will die in the series. The giant chess game in their first year is way to much evidence to his death to be overlooked. So, if he dies, Harry (the second-oldest after Katie goes) will become the Captain.



constant vigilance - Aug 24, 2004 12:02 pm (#1055 of 1957)

Isn't Katie Bell in the same year as Angelina, Fred, and George? In the Lexicon it says she attends Hogwarts until 1996, which is Harry's fifth year.



S.E. Jones - Aug 24, 2004 12:08 pm (#1056 of 1957)

Katie is a year below Angelina, Fred and George (Ginny doesn't mention her leaving when she mentions the others). She's played just as long as Harry, though she's a year older (she would've been in her second year in PS and could play in her first).

I think McGonagall wouldn't give Captaincy to the person she feels is best because the others would feel bad. She probably just gives it to the oldest person so no one gets their feelings hurt.

Sorry, Paul, but I can't see it. McGonagall is a logically minded person and would give credit where credit is due, that is she'd give the captaincy to the person she felt had worked the hardest for it and would work the hardest for the team. To worry about hurt feelings in that way would be like not giving someone an A on a test when everyone else earned B's because it would make them feel bad. I think McGonagall's the type to give a person the grade they earned, plain and simple....



Hermy-own - Aug 24, 2004 2:33 pm (#1057 of 1957)

Sounds pretty much like Minerva to me.



Gemini Wolfie - Aug 24, 2004 5:03 pm (#1058 of 1957)

I agree with Jones on that one. McGonagall cares a lot about the team. She's definitely not going to play favourites. On that note, I too think Katie Bell would be captain next year because she has seniority and a very good chaser to boot. Katie probably has the best knowledge of how to run the team especially training the seekers.



Quidam - Aug 28, 2004 12:08 am (#1059 of 1957)

If Ron is made Quidditch captain or head boy I'll throw my book out the window. I've said this before and I'll repeat it here;

Chess and Quidditch are two completely different games. So saying that Ron would make a good Quidditch captain because he is good at chess does not make sense. If you use that logic it is like saying Harry who is, at best, average at chess would be a mediocre Quidditch captain.

And as for Ron becoming head boy, I can't even think why he was made a prefect. I know Dumbledore thought Harry had enough responsibility and Neville wasn't prefect material, but why not Dean or Seamus? I have also said that I would not be surprised to see Ron lose or give up his badge in book 6.

Don't get me wrong, I like Ron I just don't think he deserves to be Quidditch captain or Head Boy.



Good Evans - Aug 28, 2004 12:39 am (#1060 of 1957)

Quidam

IMO Ron was made prefect so that for once he could beat harry at something. Its odd that OotP is the only book where Ron has had some glory away from Harry (prefect and eventually getting his confidence and becoming a hero at quidditch)while Harry is having such an awful time. As for Head Boy - well unless Ron starts to behave like a prefect (as he has been a bit lacking to date!) no chance.



Quidam - Aug 28, 2004 4:00 am (#1061 of 1957)

Good Evans

I respect your opinion. But I don't agree with it myself. I can't see Dumbledore making Ron a prefect just so he could beat Harry at something.



Good Evans - Aug 28, 2004 10:03 am (#1062 of 1957)

Quidam

I actually meant that "JKR" did it for Ron to beat Harry for once. I agree that Dumbledore would not do that, absolutely. If Harry is always better than Ron it makes the character less beleiveable, Ron doesnt do anything "wrong" to always be second to Harry and at some point JKR needs to give Ron a glimmer of not being in harry's shadow.

Is that clearer as to what I meant? This is why I think Ron and not Harry got the prefect badge.



The One - Aug 28, 2004 10:45 am (#1063 of 1957)

I actually meant that "JKR" did it for Ron to beat Harry for once.

And yet, at the end of the book we are told that Ron did not really beat Harry to the Prefect Badge, as Dumbledore feels the need to explain why Harry did not get it. He seems to confirm the view that Harry was the obvious choice.

If JKR really wanted to give Ron a victory, why such a ambiguous one?



Hermy-own - Aug 28, 2004 12:36 pm (#1064 of 1957)

Very well pointed out, The One.

On the other hand, Ron still had to face competition from Dean, Seamus and Neville and he was chosen above each of them. I would call this a victory for him, albeit not against Harry.



Steve Newton - Aug 28, 2004 2:29 pm (#1065 of 1957)

Quidam, I don't think that folks are saying that Ron will make a good quidditch captain only because he is good at chess. I think they are saying that the strategic sense you need to play quality chess will compliment nicely his quidditch ability. Remember he has followed the sport for years and has flown with his family.



S.E. Jones - Aug 28, 2004 6:08 pm (#1066 of 1957)

Steve Newton: I think they are saying that the strategic sense you need to play quality chess will compliment nicely his quidditch ability.

Quite right, Steve. There are certain skills involved with being a very good chess player that would make for a very good Quidditch captain. 1) He has a very good sense of strategy, which is, in and of itself, the ability to plan out moves using the resources at your disposal (i.e. using chessmen, or players, to their fullest abilities) and thinking moves ahead, as well as anticipating the moves of the other player/team; it would also include the ability to think adaptively and tacticly. 2) He is able to inspire some following/trust in his chesspieces (which seem to be able to think for themselves to some point), if he can inspire trust in them then he may be able to do so in teammates (his chesspieces see him at his best, he knows he's good at chess and so plays with confidence, thus his chessmen may see some qualities that others don't always see). 3) The ability to concentrate and perseverance (you have to keep your mind focused on the various moves you've made as well as the other player, and be able to think ahead without letting your mind wander, which would also come in handy during Quidditch planning and games).

There are certainly other qualities, but I think those would be the main ones that would weigh in....

[/b]- Aug 24, 2008 3:43 pm (#1067 of 1957)





Sir Tornado - Aug 29, 2004 7:40 pm (#1068 of 1957)

I think we should take the Quidditch discussion on the Quidditch thread. It's been quiet for a while now. As far as captaincy is concerned, I think it should be Harry. He's the most senior palyer (alongwith Katie) and a natural leader.



S.E. Jones - Aug 29, 2004 8:34 pm (#1069 of 1957)

Tornedo, there's nothing wrong with discussing Quidditch as long as it stays within the general topic of "Ron Weasley" to whom this thread is dedicated.



Gemini Wolfie - Sep 1, 2004 12:11 am (#1070 of 1957)

In response to Quidam, Steve and SE made most of the points I wanted to make. My comments about Ron's chess skills are not to be seen as the reason Ron would make a good Quidditch captain but why he shouldn't be doubted as to having the ability to accomplish the said task.

As seen in Ron's chess games, he sees the overall plan of attack and defense quite clearly as opposed to one move at a time (a common trait for keepers and chess players). Everyone has their own ideal captain. Remember, the captaincy is a big burden. The captain must have the ability to control his/her temper and stay out of trouble. (Do you think Harry can do a better job of that than Ron?) The captaincy has a lot of management responsibilities which means it is also time-consuming. Between Ron and Harry, it's easy to see why Ron would be better off as captain for both boys' sake. We really don't know how many times Ron has dragged Harry out to practice with him. He's been working hard despite himself.



Time Traveler - Sep 1, 2004 8:54 pm (#1071 of 1957)

I like Ron as a Quidditch captain. Please let me remind you of the chess game at the end of PS. It was not an ordinary chess game. It was a chess game with life-size (actually, larger) chess pieces, not ordinary little pieces. And with them, he did a good job, too.

I've always thought that playing real soccer and watching them playing from the stadium(they seem very tiny, you know..) have huge differences. Chess is clearly much staticer than soccer or Quidditch, but with ALIVE life-size chess men it seems somewhat similar with Quidditch.

So, I think the game shows us that Ron probably has a good sense of strategy even on real guys.



Gemini Wolfie - Sep 2, 2004 6:44 pm (#1072 of 1957)

Time Traveler, I agree that it was no ordinary chess game but I thought that was because a wrong move would have cost them their lives? The chess game definitely showed that Ron can step up to the plate and perform underpressure. That was a clutch performance.

I can't stress enough the importance of leadership coming from more than just the captain, that's why I really don't think it's such a big deal as to whether Ron gets the captaincy or Harry. The greatest leader is not often the greatest player. It would just be nice for me to see Harry be the headboy (like his father) and Ron being Quidditch captain.



scully jones - Sep 2, 2004 8:25 pm (#1073 of 1957)

Ron seems very unreliable in taking control. I think he'd only be good taking control of a situation he was already prepared for. In most dangerous situations he becomes a blubbering wreck. With chess, he could pretend it was just a game. That's the only reason he did well, I think. If he doesn't suck it up soon, he's not going to be a good sidekick in the final battle.



Weeny Owl - Sep 2, 2004 9:24 pm (#1074 of 1957)
Edited Sep 2, 2004 10:34 pm

Ron hasn't been a blubbering wreck in any of the books; in fact, he really is quite brave... just like a Gryffindor should be.



Time Traveler - Sep 2, 2004 11:57 pm (#1075 of 1957)

Gemini Wolfie, I also like to see Harry be the headboy (like his father) and Ron being Quidditch captain. And about that chess game, I talked about the viewpoint. When people watch a soccer game on TV, they usually scream things like "Pass to him, pass!" or "Now shoot, just shoot!" :-) However, I suspect that players have harder time to look all over the ground.

And.. when you play a chess game, you see the chessboard just like watch the ground on TV. But with the taller-than-you pieces, I think it's more similar with playing soccer yourself.. That was my point, but I also know it was still a chess game, though.:-)



S.E. Jones - Sep 3, 2004 12:29 am (#1076 of 1957)

I have to agree with Weeny Owl. Ron is actually rather level headed in the books (certainly not in the movies, though). In PS, it's Hermione who loses her head with the Devil's Snare and has to be reminded she's a witch by Ron before she thinks to use magic to start a fire and drive the plant away. In CoS, Ron was deathly afraid of spiders and had never been into the Forbidden Forest, yet he bravely bit his lip and followed spiders, in the dark no less, into the Forest. His fear of spiders is an actual phobia, which by sheer definition makes it unreasonable (i.e. you can't reason around it or talk yourself out of it because it is the body engaging in "fight or flight" without any real reason), yet he still followed the spiders. In PoA, he bravely shoved Harry out of the way of the "Grim" and got grabbed instead, and then he later bravely declared that Sirius would have to kill all three of them if he intended to kill Harry...... He isn't the cowardly, pure comic relief, side-kick that we see in the movies. He's much more.....



True Love - Sep 3, 2004 3:35 am (#1077 of 1957)

SE Jones - regarding your statement "He isn't the cowardly, pure comic relief, side-kick that we see in the movies" - I agree, the movies have done Ron a disservice. I hope this won't continue in the future films. I believe JKR will continue to show us a more mature Ron.

Everyone talks about him being in Harry's shadow but I think he has been in his brothers' shadow too long. Now that he is the oldest Weasley at school he will come into his own. I too believe he will make a great captain by year 7. And as far as comic relief, he isn't the only character providing us with that anymore.



Casey - Sep 3, 2004 8:05 am (#1078 of 1957)

S.E. Jones and True Love...I adore what's being said here about my man. I agree. I think Ron is going to really start making a name for himself around school now that the twins have left. He makes me proud! Smile Bless him! I feel so badly for him when he sucks at Quidditch. If Rupert Grint is still playing him when they make the 5th film, I may shed a tear. I don't feel that the movies have necessarily done him a TOTAL disservice. But, you do need to read the books to get a deep appreciation for Ron.



Weeny Owl - Sep 3, 2004 8:38 am (#1079 of 1957)

The movies have never done Ron justice.

I think Ron showed his true character in the first book when he was willing to fight the three stooges on the train. Since no one expected Scabbers to become involved, the fight would have been three to two, but Ron didn't back down from the bullies. Of course, the fact that Ron detests Draco is a definite plus.



Magika - Sep 3, 2004 8:50 am (#1080 of 1957)

I very much agree, Weeny... In the movies, I don't like Ron at all, because he's so different from who he is in the books. In the books he is courageous and smart, in the movies he's just a sidekick. A wimpering supposed-to-be-funny sidekick. So sad! :`)



Kasse - Sep 3, 2004 9:02 am (#1081 of 1957)

I agree Silje (Magika) I have no idea why the movie Ron is not as confident as the book Ron I feel that people who do not read the books and just watch the movies do not feel a sense of loyalty to Ron becasue they do not know the real Ron



Magika - Sep 3, 2004 2:41 pm (#1082 of 1957)
Edited Sep 3, 2004 3:41 pm

That's exactly my point. I know someone who only recently went to see the movie. They just wrinkled their noses when I spoke about Ron afterwards, let alone glaring stupidly at me when I told them he's my hero Smile

I mean, if Ron has been whimpery in the first three movies... Imagine what he will be like in the next! Surprised <- (supposed to be frightened smiley-face...)



Brandon Christopher - Sep 3, 2004 5:26 pm (#1083 of 1957)

Probably one of the few things I like about the HP movies is the way they depict Ron. I think that it's a definite form a forshadowing his character and the direction he will take in the later books. JKR always points out that the movies forshadow quite a bit. If you remember she said that PoA forshadowed the most out of the three so far. And that was the movie where Ron was the biggest prat. I think that there is a definite reason for this other than comic relief. I also think there is a reason why a lot of Ron's bravery scenes are taken out of the movies. The script writer knows things that we don't. When Ron turns on Harry it won't be a big surprise in the movies after watching his character in them. I think that is the reason why the theatrical Ron acts the way he does.

We all have our favorite characters - there's no doubt about that. And there's no doubt in anyone's minds how I feel about Ron (hopefully.) But in thinking of the reasons behind "movie-Ron" I've come to the conclusion that he is the way he is because of the forshadowing JKR often refers to.



Sir Tornado - Sep 3, 2004 7:19 pm (#1084 of 1957)

Although I hate Ron, I find it very sad that Ron is being used just as a comic-relief in the movies. It goes to such an extent that the storyline of PoA movie would've gone perfectly well had there been no Ron. Just a few laughs less. How could JKR have let them do this?



scully jones - Sep 3, 2004 8:23 pm (#1085 of 1957)

Sure Ron goes through with things, but that doesn't stop him from whining the whole way. I do see a lot of forshadowing with Ron. I can completely see him grabbing for power if it's offered to him. His attitude is changing a lot in the last few books. He was a bit pensieve at the end of the fifth. We'll see, though.



rambkowalczyk - Sep 4, 2004 6:08 am (#1086 of 1957)

Most of the books have Ron as a laid back, go with the flow, kind of person as opposed to Hermione's take charge, in your face attitude. Take the house elf attitudes, neither encountered a house elf before book 4. Both met Winky up in the Quidditch stands,in the woods, and when she was caught with a wand and "given clothes". Ron took the position of the wizarding world that house elves like to work, and freeing them goes against the order of things. Although he doesn't say this it is possible he may have felt that Crouch was within his rights to do what he did. Hermione on the other hand relies on her sense of "justice" that says slavery is wrong, therefore Crouch is a bad person and anyone who keeps house elves should be re-educated. Ron doesn't stand up to Fred and George because 1 it never occurred to him that he could,plus he valued their opinion of him and didn't want to be compared to Percy. Hermione,although sensitive to Ron's opinion of her, cares less what the Weasley twins think and has no problem speaking to them. Hermione because she thinks she right always tells Harry what the rules are and can get pretty annoying (witness when she tried to discourage Harry from talking to Sirius right after Easter break). Ron however understands that when Harry has made up his mind it is practically pointless to fight him on it.

Each is learning from the other. Hermione to be a little laid back-she hasn't changed her mind or actions on the house elf issue, but on the day the twins set off the fireworks, that evening she stopped studying because she felt rebellious. Ron periodically learns that there are times when one must make a stand-he's not ready to stand up to Fred and George, but he did stand up to Seamus at the beginning of the book when Seamus wanted to insult Harry.



weasley by nature - Sep 4, 2004 1:02 pm (#1087 of 1957)

Exactly, Ramb. I don't understand why anyone would hate Ron. Because he's not perfect? Because of the one part in GF where Ron and Harry fight (gasp! friends fight!?!)? Because most people like him? I don't get it, but I'm pretty sure it's the last one. Ron doesn't stand up for the little things, he picks his battles. Just because he's not Hermione doesn't make him evil. And I don't remember him ever whining except when he was forced to encounter huge spiders that would've freaked anyone out, let alone an arachnophobe (sp?). Saying the movies portray him more accurately than the books is ridiculous and just an attempt to justify hatred for a likable character. And Ron was the biggest prat in the CS movie not the PA movie. Plus the script writers don't know anything huge, so they wouldn't know if Ron was supposed to betray Harry. Isn't Ron supposed to be loosely based on JKR's best friend? Do you really think she hates him?

Oh, and do we know that Ron had never met a house-elf before? I assumed he had.



The One - Sep 4, 2004 1:08 pm (#1088 of 1957)
Edited Sep 4, 2004 2:21 pm

GoF Chapter 8 (Harry has just met Winky in the top box)

She gave the edge of the box another frightened look and hid her eyes completely again. Harry turned back to the others. "So that's a house-elf?" Ron muttered. "Weird things, aren't they?"

Ron doesn't stand up for the little things, he picks his battles.

????? The one thing Ron hardly ever does is to pick his battles. He flares up whenever he is insulted, Hermione is insulted, his family is insulted, Hermione dates a boy, or Ginny dates a boy. The only exception is that he is afraid to confront the twins, and that in OotP he also avoids confronting Harry.



Steve Newton - Sep 4, 2004 4:25 pm (#1089 of 1957)

"I'm going to be a knight." Ron Weasley chapter 16 SS/PS.

I think that this sums up Ron.



Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Sep 5, 2004 12:02 pm (#1090 of 1957)

Horray for Steve. I think that the movies have done Ron's character a disservice. I do not think it's forshadowing anything, just that the creators feel that Emma and Daniel are more marketable so they are pushing Harry and Hermione into the forgroud.

The fact that he "flares-up" quickly, to me at least, shows that he is a sensitive caring boy who simply doesn't always know the best way to react to things. How can you blame him for being upset when someone insults him or his family and friends? He is not afraid to show his feelings (like*cough*Harry*cough*)which makes him a great person.

Once again, I will say that I think he will be Quidditch Captain, and that Harry will not mind. Harry has way to much to worry about, and I'm sure that he would be very happy that Ron finally got some glory.



The One - Sep 5, 2004 2:22 pm (#1091 of 1957)
Edited Sep 5, 2004 3:24 pm

How can you blame him for being upset when someone insults him or his family and friends?

I didn't. I just pointed out that he does not always put a lot of thought into picking his battles.

I also pointed out that even if "weasly by nature" assumed that Ron has met a house elf earlier, that seems not to be the case.

I must admit that it is my impression that Ron-lovers make a lot of assumptions about Ron that are either pure guesswork or plain wrong in order to make him better than I think the books make him. IMO the idea that Ron would make a good Quidditch Captain is the best example of them all. As I read Ron, it is absolutely unthinkable that Ron will be made captain by the start of book 6, and he needs a tremendous development during book 6 to be a candidate by the start of book 7. The same goes for Ron as Head boy.



Weeny Owl - Sep 5, 2004 2:28 pm (#1092 of 1957)

I don't believe that it's unthinkable for Ron to become Quidditch captain. His lack of talent in playing Quidditch was based more on being nervous than on anything else, and a lot of that was because of Fred and George's reactions.

He finally realized he had the ability, and once he realized that, he was a darned good Keeper; however, ability or lack thereof in playing has little to do with what is needed as captain. Ron's chess abilities prove that he is good at strategy, and that is much more important in planning a Quidditch match than one's playing skills.



The One - Sep 5, 2004 3:23 pm (#1093 of 1957)

He finally realized he had the ability, and once he realized that, he was a darned good Keeper;

Probably what happened in this situation is that he realized that he had nothing to lose. Then he relaxed and played far better. The next game is going to be a hard one, because now he has something to lose and will be nervous again.

Ron will need some more matches to establish himself as a stable good keeper, and until he has done that he will have to concentrate on his own play, and it makes no sense whatsoever to let him take responsibility for other players.

And then: Chess strategy and Quidditch are to different things. I guess chess and Quidditch have some things in common, but no one has ever been appointed as captain or coach or manager for a sports team of any kind due to playing good chess.



Star Crossed - Sep 5, 2004 4:02 pm (#1094 of 1957)

I am one of the believers who thinks Harry will get captain in HBP, but will get Ron to help him.



Czarina II - Sep 5, 2004 7:08 pm (#1095 of 1957)

Are we arguing (or "forcifully discussing") over whether it is all right to like or dislike a character? I think those of us who like Ron are just trying to point out that there is actually depth (gasp!) to his character. His character is a bit like a glacial pool -- it looks shallow and simple, but try swimming to the bottom and you'll discover it's too far.

As for Ron becoming the next Captain being "absolutely unthinkable", JKR has not said so. Scabbers, anyone? Heck, remember the Titanic!



Weeny Owl - Sep 5, 2004 10:10 pm (#1096 of 1957)

Chess strategy and Quidditch are to different things

There are some subjects some people are good at naturally. Strategy is simply a way of devising plans and looking ahead to achieve a desired goal. Ron is good at looking ahead in chess, and that quality can be what is needed to help win a Quidditch match or to defeat a foe. It isn't whether or not someone is playing a particular game, but whether or not someone can look ahead and see possible moves.

Harry is a great Seeker, but the Seeker's job is basically outside the game itself. The Seeker doesn't need to concentrate on what other players are doing except to avoid the other team's Beaters. All he or she has to do is keep looking for the Snitch. The rest of the team is involved in offense and defense.

I have no idea if JKR would make Ron captain or not, but he has the talent and the ability to be successful.

I think those of us who like Ron are just trying to point out that there is actually depth (gasp!) to his character. His character is a bit like a glacial pool -- it looks shallow and simple, but try swimming to the bottom and you'll discover it's too far.

Outstanding, Czarina! That is a fantastic analogy.



Time Traveler - Sep 5, 2004 10:46 pm (#1097 of 1957)

I'm one of the people who love to see Ron become a captain. IMO, a Seeker is not much appropriate for the captain thing, even if there was a player who plays the captain and the seeker at the same time. I think Ron has a possibility for the captain, but I don't think he will become a captain in the very next book. He DOES have an ability, though he needs to develop it more. So after the sixth book, we may agree that Ron will manage his job well.:-)



Natasha - Sep 6, 2004 12:56 am (#1098 of 1957)

I think Ron would get captain. Just because someone is athletic (Harry) doesn't mean that they have leadership qualities. But then again, Harry might get it since Ron is already a prefect.



Fawkes Forever - Sep 6, 2004 3:37 am (#1099 of 1957)
Edited Sep 6, 2004 4:40 am

I don't think Ron or Harry will make quidditch captain in the HBP, Katie will probably get the honour, unless she opts not to on account of her NEWTS or something. Anyways, we'll find out soon (we hope... come on JK when do we get the HBP?)

A thought occured to me recently in regards to Ron. Has anyone else wondered why most of Rons 'action moments' in OotP occured 'off-screen' as so to speak.

We never got to see his moment of glory during the Quidditch match, & we never got to see how he performed during the battle at the Department of Mysteries. We only meet up with him again after he got hit by a jinx from one of the Death Eaters. We have no idea how he performed up until this point. You could argue 'not too well', if he got hit by a jinx/curse, but we all know Hermione was doing quite well, but still managed to get hit by a 'non spoken' curse from a Death Eater... Something I'm sure she wasn't expecting... having never been in the situation of a battle before.

We also know she was knocked out of the fight early on as she took risks, fought back & threw herself into the melee. Perhaps this is what happened to Ron. Afterall, his little sister was with him, & we know he can be quite protective of Ginny

These are only supposes, we really don't have a clue what happened to Rons 'team' during the battle in the department of mysteries, (apart from Lunas commentry). However I'm just wondering if there is a reason why JK is keeping Rons 'action moments' off screen? Just a thought



Time Traveler - Sep 6, 2004 4:05 am (#1100 of 1957)

I think that Ron probably did as good a job as he could. Hit by a jinx/curse from DEs doesn't mean they were completely stupid or dull. All five of them except Harry damaged severely, and I'll say Harry was very lucky. (Of course, he fought very well but he could be injured if his friends didn't protect him just in time.)

Personally, I think why JK is keeping Ron's action moments off-screen is for giving more Harry/Hermione scenes to us. However, I don't know. Maybe there is another critical reason we don't know?

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Gemini Wolfie - Sep 6, 2004 5:58 am (#1101 of 1957)

Well in the beginning, Ron's character was very much like one of JKR's best friends. Are we really supposed to think so badly of him? I think JKR will be in as much shock as she was when she discovered that people liked Voldemort and Snape!

The One, May I ask you to share briefly your sports background? It may help explain where you're coming from. I agree with you that Ron needs to answer some questions with his play in his upcoming school year. Perhaps like other parts of his wizarding life, Ron may be the late bloomer of the trio and blossom at least into a capable keeper. Although it's always wise not to overrate, we do often hear of turning point games.

Time Traveler, Cedric was a seeker and he was a captain so it's obviously possible. But I agree, it's definitely seems harder to offer on-field leadership when you're a seeker. But like I pointed out, the captaincy is a lot about management rather than actual leadership on the field. Hence my suggestion that Ron would be a more appropriate choice.

Relating chess again to Quidditch. It's really about X/Os. Chess players, goalies, quarterbacks, and even defenders generally have the ability to see and understand the direction that the game is moving in front of them. It's one reason why you'll more often see defensive players and quarterbacks be TV analysists or coaches rather than scorers. I guess it's the idea of leaders directing from behind their men vs leading the charge. Different ways of being a good captain/leader.



Mafalda Weasley - Sep 6, 2004 10:34 am (#1102 of 1957)

I was rereading Goblet of Fire last night and got to the point where Harry meets Sirius in the fire after finding out about the dragons. Harry said he lay awake for a long time after that and yet didn't hear Ron come up. Maybe Sirius checked if Harry was still there after about ten minutes? Instead he found Ron...and talked to him? I don't know, just a theory but what was Ron up to all that time?



Weeny Owl - Sep 6, 2004 11:21 am (#1103 of 1957)

About the battle in the Department of Mysteries, one thing that needs to be kept in mind is that there were six students fighting to stay alive with twelve Death Eaters after them. Nott was knocked out early, but that still leaves eleven. That they all survived is actually quite an accomplishment.

I'm still most interested in what, if anything, JKR plans to do with the brain incident. Is that going to be a storyline for Ron? Will it haunt him, help him, or not affect him at all?



The One - Sep 6, 2004 12:05 pm (#1104 of 1957)

The One, May I ask you to share briefly your sports background?

You may, it is as an spectator. Nevertheless I believe in what I claim.

You are right of course, that some of the abilities that make a good chess player may also be useful in sports. One of the best Norwegian chess players used to be a good soccer player. (But as far as I know, not a captain.) But that does not mean that all, or even most, chess players are captain material. Even if some of the abilities are the same Quidditch is different from chess.

When MacGonnagal are considering whether Ron is to made captain at the beginning of the 6th book, she have the following information about Ron:

He had a major confidence issue throughout the 5th year, resulting in two out of three matches being played very badly, despite a considerable talent.

He was on the verge of giving up, but was more or less forced to go on by his captain. All honor to Ron that he did improve at last, but the next time he hits the wall there will be no captain to keep him going, it is he that must keep others going. Does MacGonnagol have reason to believe that he is up to it?

He has so far showed limited leadership abilities. (And no, commanding chess pieces that are magiced into following orders do not count.)

He is a good chess player.

It does not seem reasonable for me that she will make Ron captain based on this information.

If he grows very much he may be a candidate for the 7th book. I do not believe it will happen, but it is possible. But in book 6? No way, in my opinion.



Star Crossed - Sep 6, 2004 12:58 pm (#1105 of 1957)

Mafalda, great theory. Does anyone know if the dorm door was open? If it was, he might have heard them.



S.E. Jones - Sep 6, 2004 1:35 pm (#1106 of 1957)

Fawkes Forever, you left the kids breaking out of Umbridge's office off your list of "action moments" that we've missed.



weasley by nature - Sep 6, 2004 6:49 pm (#1107 of 1957)

You're right, The One, Ron doesn't pick his battles--I didn't think that one through. What I should've said was that Ron not standing up for house-elf rights or standing up to his brothers simply shows that he is not like Hermione, he will not stand up for someone who doesn't want his help and he is very close with his family, to a fault. But, if you are implying that I assumed things about Ron because I like him, I hardly think that the reason I assumed Ron had met a house-elf was out of love for Ron. It was out of knowledge that he was a pure-blood wizard who had grown up with wizards and knows about most wizarding customs.

Also I don't think all Ron-lovers want him to be captain. I think that Katie will be captain because Quidditch will be a sidestoryline to the ultimate storyline of the battle versus Voldemort, whereas if Ron was captain this would raise many issues that would complicate an already complicated storyline. Ron did good in one match, Katie and Harry have done good in all matches. Ron has been on the team for one year, Katie and Harry have been on the team for many years. I think that Katie and Harry have more leadership skills than Ron. I agree that Ron has more strategy skills than Harry, but we know nothing of Katie's strategy skills. Also, I think that Katie is the most knowledgable of the game: Harry knows how to play well as a seeker, but I don't think he knows the other positions as well, and Ron knows the game well because of years of watching, but he has only been on a team for a year.



Fawkes Forever - Sep 7, 2004 1:07 am (#1108 of 1957)

Sarah, another good example of Rons actions occuring 'off screen'. I'm getting more curious as to are there any reasons behind that.

I'm also wondering about the brain episode... hope they haven't done any unforeseen damage!



Gemini Wolfie - Sep 7, 2004 1:23 am (#1109 of 1957)
Edited Sep 7, 2004 2:25 am

The One. In the history of professional sports, there have been some very notable players/captains who have quit the game suddenly, or held out for a trade. Can you say they gave up on the game, or in other instances, gave up on his teammates? Sure. But did they really? Some of these players end up coming back to the game or end up getting their wish to be traded and resume to being the player and captain that they were previously regarded to be. In the instances where they quit the game and come back, some of these players come back with a whole different perspective, passion, and love for the game. It's really one of the greatest occurences in sport. It shows a lot of preserverence on the player's part. It's not so much how they learned but the fact that they learned.

Ron wanted to quit because he felt his performance handicapped the team (how often do you hear an argument over whether a player should just quit or retire before they ruin their reputation or make a fool out of themselves?). Being the weakest link is a terrible feeling. I personally would play if the alternative meant that my team would forfeit, but if I'm hurting my team I'll take myself out of the game. Ron didn't give up on his teammates. He gave up on himself. But that doesn't mean he would be afraid to give it another try. It also doesn't mean that he won't play as hard as he could when he's out there. In any "team" there are different ways of leading a team. You can be the best player, the one designated to call out strategies, the most respected voice in the locker room, the one in charge of managing the team, the one responsible for putting a team together, or simply the one who's most enthusiastic in regards to the team.

I honestly think Katie will for sure be captain next year. She's the only choice. But for the year after... Harry has missed practices, missed games, and got himself suspended. That can't possibly be prototypical captain conduct! You think he'll miss any more practices and games next year? So far you can argue a case for Ginny, but Ron really isn't that bad of a choice provided! that he puts together a good season to earn the respect of his teammates next school year. Ginny will get her chance most likely.

I respect Ron for being who he is. I really don't know why his character should be judged so badly by some. He's not pretentious or anything.



Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Sep 7, 2004 6:42 am (#1110 of 1957)

I too am very interested in what the brains will do to Ron. I also don't think there is any big reason why Ron's "action moments" were off screen, other than the fact that Harry is continuing to distance himself from Ron and Hermione. Hermione was still in the foreground because she knew how Harry was feeling, and unlike Ron knew how to deal with his annoying agnst.

Just my opinion, I'm not a mod or anything, but I think the subject of who will be captain has been disscussed to death, and I think we should all move on.



Casey - Sep 7, 2004 8:05 am (#1111 of 1957)

I don't really believe that Ron will be captain. That just doesn't make sense. Also, I don't think his "heroic moments" are kept out of the films on purpose. Although, I've loved him in the books, I think he's always been a little whiny and a bit of a scaredy cat at times. But, he always overcomes that cowardice, and that's what makes him brave. I've loved Ron ever since he was introduced in the first book, and I have not been disappointed in him in the films either.



Mafalda Weasley - Sep 7, 2004 10:14 am (#1112 of 1957)

Star Crossed, the door wasn't open unfortunately, but Ron did hear Harry talking. And he didn't really think he was practising for an interview. I think Sirius checked in, found Ron, and they talked for a little about what Harry was going through. Ron makes friends with Harry like 3days after and they "catch each others eyes" in Divination for the first time in days when trewlawney predicts his death again. If he didn't speak to Sirius though, what was he up to?



S.E. Jones - Sep 7, 2004 10:33 am (#1113 of 1957)

Mafalda Weasley: If he didn't speak to Sirius though, what was he up to?

Harry is rather surprised when Ron doesn't stop him from stomping by, up to the dormroom. Instead we see Ron just standing there in his too small pajamas. I think he may have been thinking about their fight and the reasons behind it and realizing that he didn't want to fight anymore. He does later try to catch Harry's eye in Divination, which I think shows that he wants to end the fight but isn't sure how to approach Harry.



Magika - Sep 7, 2004 12:49 pm (#1114 of 1957)
Edited Sep 7, 2004 1:54 pm

I agree with you, Sarah. I think he spent the time thinking things over. I mean, if my friend had chucked a badge at me and screamed at me the way Harry did, I would be quite upset afterwards. I believe Ron was a bit shocked too, because Harry actually attacked his Achilles heel: his jealousy. Somehow, I don't think Ron understood that Harry knew he was jealous of him. So Ron had to think for a minute. Maybe he finally understood the stupidity of their fight, or the fact that he missed Harry. I think he tried to figure out what to do, because I think Ron is a little bit afraid of making the first step. Does this make sense (been to school + work for 14 hours... a bit tired Wink)?

And Matilda - I totally agree with you. Ron as Quidditch captain has been discussed to death. Please let us bury it! Wink



Aurora Gubbins - Sep 7, 2004 1:37 pm (#1115 of 1957)

Maybe I'm having one of those 'Luna Lovegood' moments, but in the 'Random Facts About The Weasley Family' section (Official website, coffee mug portkey, 'Characters') she talks about Ron and people with red hair being (according to superstition) unlucky. She then makes the comment that Judas Escariot was reportedly a redhead. She comments on weasels being seen to be a malevolent animal. She compares her friend Sean with Ron and comments on their similarities ("...very funny and deeply loyal") but also tells us that there are "substantial differences" between the two.

Does anyone think that this is one of her hints? Maybe JKR is going to have Ron turn his back on Harry, just when Harry needs Ron more than ever.

Many here have asked "Where was Ron when...?" and the brain attack has been a major point for discussion, too. Madam Pomfrey said that thoughts are the hardest wounds to heal, so clearly there will be some very deep scars from that incident. Because the books are about Harry, we only ever read about his thoughts, dreams and feelings about things, and we never find out what Ron (or Hermione) thinks or feels about anything. We never even see Ron discuss his feelings for Hermione, we only see Harry guess as much, after Hermione tells Ron off for not asking her to the Ball first.

Be gentle with me!



S.E. Jones - Sep 7, 2004 5:08 pm (#1116 of 1957)
Edited Sep 7, 2004 6:08 pm

Aurora Gubbins: ...but in the 'Random Facts About The Weasley Family' section (Official website, coffee mug portkey, 'Characters') she talks about Ron and people with red hair being (according to superstition) unlucky. She then makes the comment that Judas Escariot was reportedly a redhead. She comments on weasels being seen to be a malevolent animal.

She also says that she likes both redheads and weasels and doesn't prescribe to those old folklore ideas of redheads being unlucky or weasels being malevolent.

JKRowling.com:
In Britian and Ireland the weasel had a bad reputation as an unfortunate, even malevolent, animal. However, since childhood I have had a great fondness for the family mustelidae; not so much malignant as maligned, in my opinion.

There are also many superstitions associated with redheaded people and most state that they are in some way unlucky (Judas Escariot was supposedly red-haired), but this is nonsense; I happen to like red hair as well as weasels.



Kasse - Sep 7, 2004 5:28 pm (#1117 of 1957)
Edited Sep 7, 2004 6:28 pm

I like that 'very funny and deeply loyal part', ha it does not look like Ron will be betraying anyone

I will be crushed if Ron turns out to betray Harry by his own free will or if Ron turns out to be evil. I would rather he die than betray Harry and Hermione and that for me is a big deal because I love Ron dearly, but I will throw the book out the window if he becomes evil (then I would run and get it quick and continue reading)

Anyhow I siriusly (seriously) doubt that Ron will switch sides that is why I am happy to hear about the deeply loyal part



Gemini Wolfie - Sep 7, 2004 6:33 pm (#1118 of 1957)
Edited by S.E. Jones Sep 7, 2004 11:20 pm

I'm speaking only from what I can remember so please help me out on this. I have the impression that Ron and Hermione are much better at speaking out during times of awkwardness; they are better peace keepers than Harry is. Harry for all his efforts, can't seem to bring himself to speak at the most awkward times such as saying sorry. Ron on the other hand, although not as straight-forward as Ernie, does bring himself to try for a resolution. I seem to remember numberous occasions where Ron, speaking calmly in agreeance to Harry, successfully calmed Harry down. I don't remember too many occasions where Harry did the same thing. Harry seems to always find reason in his feelings of revenge, anger, and being misunderstood, that stops himself from saying sorry or finding out what his friends are really thinking . So far, I just think Harry is more prone to matching a wrong with a wrong than Ron is. I just think that Ron took and dealt with a lot of stuff from Harry to deserve the abuse that some members here have given him.

->Edited for language.<- SE Jones



Agramante - Sep 10, 2004 9:25 pm (#1119 of 1957)

Maybe it's been covered in the 1,100-odd posts so far, or maybe it seems foolish, but one small thing bothers me: Trelawney's right (very) occasionally, and she made a pronouncement--not just in class, but before the whole faculty--in PoA, at Christmas. When she sat down to eat, she screamed because she'd make 13 at the table, and the first to rise would die. McGonagall silenced her, but Harry and Ron were the first--and no one could tell who was first between them--to rise. She'd been predicting Harry's death all year, or at least the Grim, so some kind of proximity to death, at any rate. But her Christmas pronouncement left me unnerved--I'm starting to think Ron won't survive the war.



Brandon Christopher - Sep 10, 2004 10:04 pm (#1120 of 1957)

The question is then, in what way will he backstab Harry?



S.E. Jones - Sep 10, 2004 10:08 pm (#1121 of 1957)

How is that the question?



Brandon Christopher - Sep 10, 2004 10:13 pm (#1122 of 1957)

Well, if Ron dies during the war I find it highly likely that it would be through betraying Harry in some way again. I think this act of betrayal will end up getting him killed in the process. By Harry, I know not obviously. But that still raises the question "in what way will he backstab Harry?"



S.E. Jones - Sep 10, 2004 11:06 pm (#1123 of 1957)
Edited Sep 11, 2004 12:07 am

So that's only the question if you think Ron might die betraying Harry....

I can't see Ron betraying Harry. However, what I could see, as I've said before, is Ron doing something Harry percieves, at the time, to be a betrayal. Being a loyal friend isn't always standing by a friend's side, it's also confronting that friend when you think they're about to do, or is doingm, something that might get themselves or others hurt. Ron and Hermione urged Harry repeatedly to go to Dumbledore about his dreams and "visions" of Voldemort and over what Umbridge was doing, but Harry stubbornly refused. I could see Ron, or Hermione for that matter, going over Harry's head and going to Dumbledore with something like that in HBP, especially knowing what they do now. Harry could very likely take such an action as a betrayal, at least for a time....



Weeny Owl - Sep 10, 2004 11:54 pm (#1124 of 1957)

Well, if Ron dies during the war I find it highly likely that it would be through betraying Harry in some way again.

I don't find that likely at all. In the first place, Ron never betrayed Harry. Ron hasn't done anything to Harry that Hermione hasn't, and Harry has done just as much to both of them. Friends fight, friends don't always get along, friends have differing opinions. They are not carbon copies of a single entity. The fact that their friendship can survive what all friendships do is a glowing testament to the strength they have together.

I don't see Ron dying, althought it's possible, of course.



Magika - Sep 11, 2004 2:11 am (#1125 of 1957)

I don't see him dying either... I mean, it's his best friend, would JKR do that to Harry? As for the betrayal thing... haven't we discussed that forever? I agree with Weeny Owl, friends fight and they make up. But to call what Ron did to Harry (not believing him etc) betrayal, I think is way over the top.



Fawkes Egg - Sep 11, 2004 3:13 am (#1126 of 1957)

Of course she'd do that to Harry - she took Sirius from him. I won't be surprised at all if Ron dies. Sad, but not surprised.



tracie1976 - Sep 11, 2004 4:19 am (#1127 of 1957)

Quote: Brandon Christopher: Well, if Ron dies during the war I find it highly likely that it would be through betraying Harry in some way again. I think this act of betrayal will end up getting him killed in the process.

Ohhh, interesting theory. I don't know how Ron will betray Harry but I have this feeling he will.



SarcasticGinny - Sep 11, 2004 5:50 am (#1128 of 1957)

I don't think Ron will betray Harry again. I think it will probably be something ill-thought out that gets him killed rather than anything malicious ("Accio Brains" anyone?) He can be foolish in battle because the younger Weasleys are a pretty sheltered bunch--thanks to Molly.

However, I think his character is one that is becoming MORE understanding and loyal to Harry than he was in GOF when the only "betrayal" took place. Yes he still has his "poor Ron" moments, but look at some other things- he accepts that Harry is going to do what he wants, and that he, Ron, will be there for him either way.

When Harry wants to talk to Sirius, it's Hermione who fills Harry's head with cautions until RON tells her that Harry can and will make up his own mind.

Ron doesn't whine or complain when his post Quidditch-cup glory is smashed by the Grawp story. He wilts a bit, but shifts willingly into listening to Harry and Hermione tell the tale, then offers sympathy!

When it's time to get Harry into Umbridge's office a second time, yes Hermione goes with him, but look- it's Ron who does the most dangerous job, I think, going to the old toad herself to get her out of the way!

He's showing more signs of courage and maturity in OOTP, but again, his battle skills are weak because his experience is very limited. I think he could potentially be taken from us in war, but not through betrayal. He is Harry's first kid friend. Period. JKR can be cruel to Harry but I don't think she's mean enough to make Ron into Percy Jr. AND kill him off.



Kwikspell - Sep 11, 2004 8:23 am (#1129 of 1957)

SarcasticGinny: "He can be foolish in battle because the younger Weasleys are a pretty sheltered bunch--thanks to Molly."

I'm glad you said this because I think this is Ron's big Achilles heel. I understand why Molly wants to protect her kids; but there comes a time when kids have to stop being protected by their parents and start being instructed on what's going on in the real world and what they can do to protect themselves. I'd say the reappearance of Voldemort would be about that time. I won't say Ron hasn't been brave (because he has been) but he hasn't had the same opportunity to develop the think-on-your-feet skill that Harry has. If indeed Ron is killed in the next two books (and I hope he isn't) it could be because he was too slow to react.

(To be fair, this problem is not Ron's alone--I imagine a lot of Hogwarts kids will suffer from it.)

I don't think JKR will avoid killing Ron (or Hermione) because it's "too cruel" to Harry (or the readers, for that matter). After all, she keeps talking about how hard Harry will have it in the next two books. She may be trying to prepare us for the worst. Or best, if you share Brandon's opinion! ;-)



S.E. Jones - Sep 11, 2004 11:51 am (#1130 of 1957)

I think it will probably be something ill-thought out that gets him killed rather than anything malicious ("Accio Brains" anyone?) He can be foolish in battle because the younger Weasleys are a pretty sheltered bunch--thanks to Molly.

To be completely fair, though, Ron only acted as foolishly as he did in the DoM because of something the DEs hit him with. When Harry finds him, he's acting odd and has blood coming out of his mouth. I'd say it was something that damaged some of his internal organs, including the brain, that made him go all goofy like that.

As for being sheltered, don't forget Arthur's influence. Sure Molly mollycoddles, but Arthur seems to give them free range. I think the two cancel each other out quite a bit. Would you say the Twins have been sheltered? I realize that you were alluding to the younger Weasleys, but I somehow doubt Molly's mothering has changed that much over the years. Harry is the only one (or at least one of the only ones), I'd say, out of all the Hogwarts school kids to not be protected is some way because he grew up without parents and with the Dursleys and so had to be independent. Other kids would have ran into their parents as buffers should they decide to be too independent, but in Harry's environment, it was quite necessary.



Agramante - Sep 11, 2004 5:08 pm (#1131 of 1957)

Ron may be both a seer and a goofball, there seems to be plenty of potential inside this guy...but I don't see at all that he'll ever deliberately betray Harry, under any circumstances...except if he's feeling like he's the losing rival for Hermione, but I don't see that twist happening...but Ron has a way of going down first in a fight, even when he's trying hard, and I don't have trouble imagining him being killed in a fight in the next two books. But I believe, wholeheartedly, that so long as Ron is in control of himself, he will never willingly harm Harry or Hermione.



The One - Sep 12, 2004 12:40 am (#1132 of 1957)

but I don't see at all that he'll ever deliberately betray Harry, under any circumstances...except if he's feeling like he's the losing rival for Hermione, but I don't see that twist happening...

I am a little confused by some people that seems to think that a Harry/Hermione relationship will be a disaster for Ron's friendship with Harry, that such a relationship may even lead to betrayal, but yet are convinced that Ron's loyalty are absolutely unquestionable whatever other set-backs fate may throw in Ron's way.

Is this because you really trust Ron that much, or because you do not expect any major set-backs to happen?

(This response is also posted on the ship-ship thread. Any responses that leads in that direction should be posted there.)



Ethelred the Unready - Sep 12, 2004 3:47 am (#1133 of 1957)

I am a little confused by some people that seems to think that a Harry/Hermione relationship will be a disaster for Ron's friendship with Harry, that such a relationship may even lead to betrayal, but yet are convinced that Ron's loyalty are absolutely unquestionable whatever other set-backs fate may throw in Ron's way. -The One

I think the reason that some believe a Harry/Hermione ship would cause a problem for Ron presupposes that Ron feeling for Hermione are greater than his for Harry and that losing Hermione to Harry would be a greater pain to him than he could stand. Thus leading him to betray Harry. Also that there is no other claim to his loyalty greater than that to Harry and Hermione.

Or to put it another way Ron’s highest loyalty is to Hermione then Harry and the only way for him to betray them would be if Harry and Hermione “betray” him by getting involved in a relationship. If, however his feeling aren’t that great for her, then he would never be disloyal to Harry.

I don’t think that Ron’s feeling for Hermione are that deep and therefore he would never betray Harry even in the unlikely event of a Harry/Hermione ship. I think Ron's loyalties go like this Harry then his family then Hermione.



The One - Sep 12, 2004 4:21 am (#1134 of 1957)

Or to put it another way Ron’s highest loyalty is to Hermione then Harry and the only way for him to betray them would be if Harry and Hermione “betray” him by getting involved in a relationship.

I agree in much of what you say, but still have one comment: A breach in loyalty may result from conflicting loyalties, but it may also result from disappointment, hurt feelings or selfishness.

Whatever the strength in Ron's loyalty towards Hermione versus his loyalty towards Harry, the loyal reaction to a Harry/Hermione relationship is to accept it. It may be very difficult, and it is very human not to manage it, but it is the best thing to do.

Conflicting loyalties comes into play if Harry and Hermione does not hit a romantic relationship but a major fallout. In that case Ron's actions may depend on his loyalty priority list. (Of course, the best thing is to stay loyal to both, and try to reconcile, but that may sometimes be difficult.)

(I hope non-shippers will accept this as a post about loyalty, and not a shipping post even if shipping is mentioned)



Ethelred the Unready - Sep 12, 2004 4:50 am (#1135 of 1957)

A breach in loyalty may result from conflicting loyalties, but it may also result from disappointment, hurt feelings or selfishness.

You’re right about that, but I think that Ron learned that lesson in GoF when he and Harry were not talking. After that point Ron shows no sign of wanting to endanger his friendship with Harry to the point of being non-confrontational about almost ever thing. I do see that as a weakness in their friendship. Ron’s not willing to risk the friendship to stop Harry from taking unnecessary chances. This could cause problems in the next two books. As it did in the raid on the ministry.



The One - Sep 12, 2004 5:01 am (#1136 of 1957)

I agree. That fight is history, but it has changed their friendship and the issues is not completlety resolved. I have envisaged a new conflict triggered by similar events that triggered the GoF fight, but the kind of development that you are suggesting is also a possibility.

I believe very strongly that in some form the issues left over from the GoF fight will surface, but I also believe that in the end Ron will turn out right. He has serious issues, but he is a good boy at heart.



Paulus Maximus - Sep 12, 2004 11:02 am (#1137 of 1957)
Edited Sep 12, 2004 12:11 pm

I'm not so sure. Ron absolutely loathes the Slytherins, and I can see Harry (a) recognizing that there are Slytherins who have suffered because of Lord Voldemort or who oppose LV for some other reason, and (b) saying "Voldemort's enemies are my allies" and letting those Slytherins join the DA or equivalent. It was Hermione's idea, of course, to admit "anyone who wanted to learn," so she would agree with Harry's decision to let the Slytherins in, or perhaps it will be her idea to begin with...

Such an action would seem like a betrayal to Ron, I would think, unless he is much better at swallowing his prejudices than I think he is.

On second thought... maybe he thinks Slytherins aren't much worse than Parselmouths, werewolves, or half-giants, and swallowing his prejudice against Slytherins won't be much harder.



S.E. Jones - Sep 12, 2004 11:40 am (#1138 of 1957)

I think Harry, Ron's best friend, admitting that he was almost sorted into Slytherin would go a long way in curbing Ron's prejudices toward the house....



Weeny Owl - Sep 12, 2004 1:33 pm (#1139 of 1957)

I really don't see JKR including some romantic triangle between Harry, Ron, and Hermione. It's possible, of course, but she has only two books to go and there are so many important things that need to be covered.

As for Slytherins, Harry, Ron, and Hermione have all suffered at their hands, but only at the hands of a few. It might be difficult for all three of them to trust someone from Slytherin at first, but I don't see it being any harder for Ron than it is for the other two.



Brandon Christopher - Sep 12, 2004 6:23 pm (#1140 of 1957)

The difference between Ron and the other two is that he grew listening to his brothers talk about the evil slytherins. He grew up with his parents who, nice as they are, don't particularly like slytherins either. At least, the slytherins that we know that they know. Ron grew up listening to all this, he has more of a predisposition against Slytherin than Harry and Hermione because of this. For once I'm not saying that he's a bad person, just that he has more background behind him. To like a slytherin he has to put forth even more effort than both Harry and Hermione. And let's face it, Ron isn't the most accepting person in the world. I think that unless he matures at least a little bit there's no way he could accept a slytherin amongst the DA. He would have to completely change the way he thinks, and this is not Ron's strong suit. He's wuite possibly the most bull-headed character in the series.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 12, 2004 7:08 pm (#1141 of 1957)

Brandon, I agree with you, up to a point. Ron does not like the Slytherins he knows, Draco, father and company.
He's more like his father than he knows. He doesn't like the Slytherins he see's or what they stand for. Except for two small problems I see bothering him. (1)He's tired of being poor and want's to do better for himself, and at same time feels ashamed of himself for thinking that. And (2)He himself is a "pureblood", which puts him at odds with the one thing Slytherins (and Moldy Voldy) pride themselves on.
Poor Ron is really walking a tightrope at a really rough time in life. But, like I said, he is like his father, has a compassion for the friends, family, loyalty...as long as it doesn't apply to Slytherins or house-elves.
If he lives, he'll be ok.



Brandon Christopher - Sep 12, 2004 8:12 pm (#1142 of 1957)

Emphasis on "if he lives" though...



Czarina II - Sep 13, 2004 7:52 am (#1143 of 1957)

I think Ron's prejudices are quite understandable. JKR has portrayed him very realistically. Most people have unconscious prejudices (just because you have a prejudice doesn't make one racist) based on what they have come to believe in their lives. Ron assumes that house-elves like to work because that is what he has heard and what he sees, for example. Likewise, his dislike of Slytherins comes from his and his family's negative experiences with them, much as some families dislike door-to-door religious salespeople. In the case of Gryffindor vs. Slytherin, the rivalry is longstanding and dates back much further than Ron's lifetime, but that does not mean it has no merit. Slytherins (particularly Malfoys) still mistreat Weasleys. For their part, the Malfoys have what they perceive as a REASON to dislike the Weasleys. The term "blood traitor", or at least that concept, is not such a foreign thing to many people even in the muggle world, which is unfortunate.



Weeny Owl - Sep 13, 2004 11:11 am (#1144 of 1957)

What you said is true, Czarina, but Draco also dislikes the Weasleys just because they don't have a lot of money. Lucius makes it a point to make snotty comments to Arthur at the Quidditch World Cup, for instance.

I think the Gryffindors who have had bad experiences with Slytherins will have a problem accepting some of them at first, but eventually, they'll all come to terms with the good Slytherins, even Ron.

I've suspected for a while that Tonks is a good Slytherin. She mentions her Head of House saying she wouldn't be made a prefect because she couldn't behave. Ron, Harry, Hermione, and Ginny all like Tonks, and if she's a Slytherin, that could go a long way in helping the non-Slytherins realize that not all students from that house are evil.

I really don't see Ron having any more of a problem than anyone else.



Julie Aronson - Sep 13, 2004 1:02 pm (#1145 of 1957)

I am pretty sure that poverty is not the only reason for Lucius Malfoy's rudeness to Arthur Weasley--there are comments scattered about that Arthur is behind some of the raids for dark items the Malfoys have been subjected to.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 13, 2004 8:45 pm (#1146 of 1957)

Yes, Author is a definate danger to the Malfoys, but... Lucius also knows of some of Arthur's "exploits". Could be interesting to see what comes to light.



Sir Tornado - Sep 15, 2004 1:53 am (#1147 of 1957)

Do we know for sure if Tonks was a Slytherin?



Star Crossed - Sep 15, 2004 2:53 am (#1148 of 1957)

No, she (supiciously?) said 'Head of House' and not who it was.



Weeny Owl - Sep 15, 2004 9:30 am (#1149 of 1957)

No, she (supiciously?) said 'Head of House' and not who it was.

I like that phrasing, Star.

I suspect Tonks of being a Slytherin for a few reasons, but even if she isn't one, I still feel that a Slytherin who hasn't been antagonistic toward the trio will come forward. Perhaps Blaise Zabini?

I do feel that JKR is going to make some changes that will affect the school, and since Ron and Hermione are prefects, they'll be getting to know other Slytherins who epitomize the good traits of their house.

I'm sure Ron and the others will still have the three stooges around to keep them on their toes.



Jennifer Anderson - Sep 15, 2004 12:45 pm (#1150 of 1957)

Have notice that that of the few times we see Dumbledore talk to Ron he addresses him as Mr.Weasley? I feel like this is important because Dumbledore calls almost everyone by there first names and that includes ron's parents. So why would Dumbledore call Ron's parents by their first names but not ron?

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Star Crossed - Sep 15, 2004 12:51 pm (#1151 of 1957)

I always felt it was the other way around. I thought he called everyone by their title and last name, except for Harry.



S.E. Jones - Sep 15, 2004 1:26 pm (#1152 of 1957)

He calls Snape "Severus" (unless he's referring to him while talking to someone else, then he says "Professor Snape"), he calls McGonagall "Minerva", calls the Weasleys "Molly" and "Arthur", calls all other teachers and staff by their first name ("Poppy", "Argus", etc), calls Ginny "Ginny", calls Voldemort "Tom", calls Lockhart "Gilderoy", calls Mr. Malfoy "Lucius".

The only time he uses a title "Professor Snape", "Miss Weasley", "Mr. Malfoy", "Lord Voldmort", etc, is when he's referring to the person while speaking to someone else. (Notice in CoS, he says "Miss Weasley should go up to the hospital wing right away," and then says directly to her, "There has been no lasting harm done, Ginny.") The only person to whom this rule doesn't apply on a regular basis seems to be Harry (in that same chapter of CoS, he referrs to Harry by name when talking to Ron, "I'd like a few more words with Harry...").

Just the trend I noticed....



haymoni - Sep 15, 2004 2:34 pm (#1153 of 1957)

I don't think we've seen Dumbledore speak directly to very many students.

I think it would be hard to say that his manner of addressing them is different.



The One - Sep 15, 2004 2:36 pm (#1154 of 1957)

How many times do we see DD use Ron's name? He calls him Mr. Weasley after the car incident, but then he is about to be punished. In the last chapter of CoS he speaks to Ron, but do not use his name. Is there any other cases where we see DD speak directly to Ron?



Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Sep 15, 2004 2:37 pm (#1155 of 1957)

Well he does address the trio an awful lot. I think he uses Mr, Miss etc, when the three of them are together, but calls Harry by his name only when they are alone. Since the book is in Harry's point of view, we always have heard Ron refered to as Mr Weasley. If he and DD were alone it might be different.



Sir Tornado - Sep 16, 2004 2:54 am (#1156 of 1957)

And, during the PoA Christmas dinner, DD addresses a Boy called Derek using his first name. ("Have some chipolatas Derek, they are excellent". The Boy blushed on being addressed directly by the headmaster and...) something like that.

But, the question we should be asking is does DD call Ron by his first (or last) name while speaking directly with him? Now I think about it, I can't think of a single instance when DD speaks to Ron.

Also notice another thing I've just remembered, in PoA, while asking H/Hr to use time-turner to save Sirius, he says, (as far as I can remember) "You must not be seen, Miss Granger, you know the rules, you must not be seen...". On that occassion, he addresses Hermione directly as "Miss Granger" and not as "Hermione".

I wonder why he's chosen Ron and Hermione to address them by their last name. Just don't tell me that points to R/Hr 'ship in some way.



Czarina II - Sep 16, 2004 4:13 am (#1157 of 1957)

In PoA, Dumbledore is speaking formally to Hermione.



The One - Sep 16, 2004 4:42 am (#1158 of 1957)
Edited Sep 16, 2004 5:43 am

In PoA, Dumbledore is speaking formally to Hermione.

In a situation where DD and the kids are conspiring to make illegal use of the time turner and release a convicted murderer? I doubt it.

It is more likely that he is formal in CoS, where Ron and Harry is about to be punished for driving an illegal car.



milti girl - Sep 16, 2004 10:27 am (#1159 of 1957)

I think Dumbledore is partial to Harry and doesn't want to say "Mr. Potter" because that would remind one of James Potter. And he calls all the adults by their first names because they are on an equal footing with him.

But when he's telling off Ron and Hermione, or explaining something important that should be taken seriously and not lightly, he uses formal language. It's likely that he uses this formal addressal while talking to/about the other Weasleys too.



S.E. Jones - Sep 16, 2004 12:15 pm (#1160 of 1957)

I have to agree. He'd use the formal language in both situations (the car in CoS, the time-turner in PoA) because he is trying to give some major authority to what he's saying so it will carry the seriousness of the situation....



Sir Tornado - Sep 17, 2004 6:54 am (#1161 of 1957)

Yes, but while explaining about time turner in PoA, he calls Harry by his first name.



Weeny Owl - Sep 17, 2004 9:25 am (#1162 of 1957)

A lot of it might be how close people feel to others.

Snape calls Draco by his first name in OotP, and Dumbledore seems to pick and choose what to use, while Lupin calls the students by their first names.

Perhaps as time goes on in the second war, Ron and the others will be called by their first names more as adults get to know them as separate individuals rather than just students or children.

I was talking to someone at work yesterday and we covered quite a few topics, but one that interested me the most was her opinion about the trio. She doesn't have strong feelings either way on Harry surviving, but she did feel that JKR wouldn't kill off Ron or Hermione.



Jennifer Anderson - Sep 17, 2004 10:32 am (#1163 of 1957)
Edited Sep 17, 2004 11:41 am

But, what about at the end of CoS when Harry and Ron were in the opposite of trouble? They were very much out of the woods. Why did Dumbledore address Ron as Mr. Weasley that time. In this same seen he addressed Ginny as simply Ginny.



haymoni- Sep 17, 2004 11:00 am (#1164 of 1957)

Don't have the book with me and I hope I am not movie-contaminated.

Isn't Dumbledore asking Ron to do something - "Mr. Weasley,...."

Ginny, on the other hand, has been through a terrible ordeal. She's sobbing. DD knows she's been set up. He's very kind.



Jennifer Anderson - Sep 17, 2004 11:13 am (#1165 of 1957)
Edited Sep 17, 2004 12:14 pm

But, still its not like Dumbledore was asking Ron to do something that was a life or death situation. He just asking Ron to take Lockheart to the hospital wing. And even so in GoF after Harry became a triwizard champion Dumdledore told Harry and Cedric to go to their common rooms. Dumbledore used Cedric's first name and that was an order.



Weeny Owl - Sep 17, 2004 11:27 am (#1166 of 1957)

Dumbledore was giving Ron a task that needed to be done, and he trusted Ron to get Lockhart to the hospital wing. It wasn't just sending two students back to their common rooms.

Ginny was treated with care because of what she had been through for the entire year.



The One - Sep 17, 2004 11:30 am (#1167 of 1957)

"Would you mind taking Professor Lockhart up to the infirmary, too?" Dumbledore said to Ron. "I'd like a few more words with Harry .....

He do not use Ron's name at all in that chapter.



haymoni - Sep 17, 2004 11:42 am (#1168 of 1957)

Never mind.



S.E. Jones - Sep 17, 2004 2:27 pm (#1169 of 1957)

Of course he uses Harry's name, even when chiding them or trying to say something and carry its serious nature in his voice. It's Harry afterall, the boy he's watched since he was an infant....



Weeny Owl - Sep 17, 2004 7:16 pm (#1170 of 1957)
Edited Sep 17, 2004 8:17 pm

This was at the end of Harry's second year, and he and Dumbledore have had a few talks here and there. Ginny was in a great deal of distress because of being possessed by Voldie. Ron was pretty much uninjured, hadn't come into contact with Voldie either through the diary itself or as Diary Tom, and Dumbledore trusted him to get Lockhart to the hospital wing. Whether or not he used Ron's first name seems irrelevant considering everything that had happened up to that time... having students and a cat petrified, being suspended himself, losing Hagrid, having no way of knowing the fate of Ron, Harry, or Ginny, and then having to deal, once again, with not having a Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher.

As Sarah said, Dumbledore has watched Harry for ages, so it stands to reason that their relationship is unique among Hogwarts students.



S.E. Jones - Sep 17, 2004 7:51 pm (#1171 of 1957)

Thanks Weeny.

Does anyone have a new topic on Ronald Bilius Weasley?

Maybe, why the middle name 'Bilius'? Does anyone think it might be a family name? He did have an uncle Bilius afterall (whom I guess could be one of Arthur's two brothers JK mentioned on her website). Maybe he was Uncle Bill's favorite nephew, hence the name? Or maybe Bilius died around the time Ron was born?

Any thoughts?



Sir Tornado - Sep 18, 2004 5:22 am (#1172 of 1957)

I really don't know, but Bilius is a very uncommon name isn't it? And Ron's really common. Another example can be seen in Percy's name, Percy Ignatius Weasley. It seems that Weasley family revels in wierd (no offence meant if there is anybody with that name on this forum) middle names.

[Salem, El Cronista de]El Cronista de Salem [/b]- Sep 18, 2004 5:32 am (#1173 of 1957)

We don't know nothing about dear uncle Bilius. Is he a Weasley? Or maybe a Prewett?

I would love to know more about the two brothers of Arthur. Arthur didn't invite them to the Quidditch World Cup, or maybe they had tickets in other place of the stadium.

VERY IMPORTANT!!! In the spanish version of jkrowling.com, it is said "Arthur Weasley had other two brothers". Have they dead, or it is a mistake of translation?



Jennifer Anderson - Sep 18, 2004 11:37 am (#1174 of 1957)

In the english version on jkrowling.com it just says that "Arthur Weasley was one of three brothers" so we don't if they are alive or dead, it could be ether way. Though if I were to guess, I'd that they're probably alive. Because in SS/PS in chapter six Ron said "Everyone expects me to do as well as the others, but if I do, it's no big deal, because they did it first." Now who's everone I can't imagine that its just his parents other he would more likely say my parents doubt brothers or Ginny displaying such expectations to Ron so its stands to reason that there is extended family in the mix of creating presure. Then in chapter twelve it desribes Ron pile of presents "as a lot bigger than Harry's" and in OotP in chapter twenty-three it agians desribes Ron's pile of presents as " rather larger".



constant vigilance - Sep 18, 2004 11:48 am (#1175 of 1957)
Edited Sep 18, 2004 12:49 pm

In PoA, Ron tells Harry and Hermione that his "Uncle Bilius saw one [a Grim] and -- and he died twenty-four hours later!" (pg 110 US hardback) Now that doesn't tell us which side of the family Bilius was on, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was his name that inspired the Weasley's to make Ron's middle name Bilius. Aren't middle names often passed on within the family?



haymoni- Sep 18, 2004 2:34 pm (#1176 of 1957)

If Ron just received presents from his immediate family, he would still have a pile compared to Harry.

For some reason, I can see Arthur as a baby brother. Could be why he wanted so many children.



Sir Tornado - Sep 20, 2004 2:11 am (#1177 of 1957)

Could Uncle Bilius' death forshadow something? Ron's death for instance?



Chris. - Sep 20, 2004 3:39 am (#1178 of 1957)
Edited Sep 20, 2004 4:40 am

I hope not!

Seriously, I do not think that Ron will pop his clogs in the near future. Harry needs friends who he can trust and rely on. Hermione is someone like this, but she isn't his best friend. He admits himself that time with Hermione was not as fun as spending time with Ron.

I know there's going to be posts now about Ron's loyalty. If Harry can forgive him, why can't we?



Julie Aronson - Sep 20, 2004 4:12 am (#1179 of 1957)

I don't think there is really any question about Ron's loyalty. He and Harry had a fight, and then they made up. That often happens between friends. Also, JKR said that she based Ron's character on one of HER best friends, so I can't imagine she would use Ron as an ultimate tool of betrayal against Harry.

Had to put my two knuts in on this one!

Julie



The One - Sep 20, 2004 1:38 pm (#1180 of 1957)

Yes, Ron is funny, but Hermione is the one he really can trust and depend on. I think that in GoF and OotP Hermione has replaced Ron as Harry's most important friend.



ex-FAHgeek - Sep 20, 2004 2:17 pm (#1181 of 1957)

---quote--- Yes, Ron is funny, but Hermione is the one he really can trust and depend on. I think that in GoF and OotP Hermione has replaced Ron as Harry's most important friend. ---end quote---

I think an important thing to understand is the difference between "best friend" and any other friend, particularly when considering the (fairly accurate) designation of "most important friend."

Ron is Harry's best friend because he is the person around whom Harry most enjoys being. They get along well, they like each other's company, they have similar interests... none of those things are necessarily mutually inclusive, and it's the combination that creates a strong friendship that can "ride through the storms," so to speak.

Harry is lucky to have Hermione as a friend, beyond the basic emotional needs of friendship. She's intelligent, observant, trustworthy, etc. She's useful to have around. Thus, she is Harry's most important friend as far as the plot and story are concerned, even if she's not his best friend like Ron is. Harry can defer to and confer with Hermione on a lot of issues with which Ron simply isn't as qualified to help him, and that's okay.

The other important thing to keep in mind is the distinction between a useful friend and using a "friend." Harry and Hermione are genuine friends, regardless of whether or not it's practical to have her helping him out. That practicality is an added bonus, not the foundation of their relationship.



constant vigilance - Sep 20, 2004 5:49 pm (#1182 of 1957)

ex-FAHgeek, that was very well articulated. I especially appreciate the distinction you make between a useful friend and using a friend. Harry is very fortunate to have a circle of friends who are useful, and I worded it that way because they are first friends, and additionally useful. Ron may not be as clever as Hermione, but he also has proven quite useful beyond just offering friendship. It is Ron who tends to Harry when Harry is having Voldemort-vision nightmares. Ron and Harry have had rough times as any friendship does, but I think they have shared far too much and been through too much together to break apart.



Murphy - Sep 22, 2004 5:38 pm (#1183 of 1957)

Ron and Hermione == James and Lily

1. Ron, like James, is a Gryffindor, pureblood, and goof-off who doesn't understand girls (especially Hermione) at all--JKR made this clear on several occasions; and Hermione and Lily are both mudbloods...Hermione blew up at Ron for not sticking up to his brothers when they tested on Gryffindors.

2. In Snape's memory in the Penseive, James doesn't understand why Lily gets so mad about what he did to Snape. I think he said something like, "What's with her, anyway?".... ====== Reminds me of Ron after finding out Hermione was writing to Krum in OotP, when he said, "What's she see in him, anyway?"

3. PREDICTION: Ron and Hermione will have a child (perhaps in another series about life after Hogwarts--he will be the next Harry Potter. Heck, the baby might even be called Harry Potter, after his parent's best friend and the wizard who saved the wizarding world...

...Another possible, corelating prediction:

Harry will die to save everyone else...Perhaps he and LV kill each other off. Maybe he dies to save R and Hermi's baby and the baby becomes HP 2, both by name and by his powers.

Sorry to ramble...I hope I don't sound completely stupid.



Sir Tornado - Sep 22, 2004 7:31 pm (#1184 of 1957)

Sorry to ramble...I hope I don't sound completely stupid. -- Murphy.

I don't know about that, but you certainly won't if you post it on the right thread; "'Ship-'Ship (Exploring relationships". You'll find it under the Theories section.

BTW, a bit off topic, but why is the Shipping thread under the Theories section? I always thought we were making predictions...



Potions Mistress - Sep 22, 2004 8:19 pm (#1185 of 1957)

"The other important thing to keep in mind is the distinction between a useful friend and using a 'friend'."-ex-FAHgeek. Nicely worded. I think that both Ron and Hermione are useful friends, in their own unique ways, but Harry would not use them to achieve his own ends (nor they to Harry)--kind of like an "opposite parallel" with Wormtail. Anyway, just my two knuts (I'm a college student and thus have to Galleons to throw in...Wink )

~pm



Mattew Bates - Sep 24, 2004 11:23 am (#1186 of 1957)

OK, I haven't read all of the posts here, so I apologize in advance if this has been brought up before.

JKR's wizard of the month is Uric the Oddball, known for wearing a jellyfish on his head.

You know, one of those soft squishy things with tentacles.

Kind of like the brain creatures in the Department of Mysteries that attacked Ron.

Am I the only one making some kind of connection here? I mean, it's perhaps too fresh, a kind of half-baked idea, but now there might be some kind of a connection between Uric and Ron. What do we know about Uric, anyway? Working in the DoM could explain some of his bizarre behavior. Perhaps Ron will be quirkier since the attack.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Sep 25, 2004 3:31 am (#1187 of 1957)
Edited Sep 25, 2004 4:35 am

I think for the moment I'm going to take Dumbledore's word in OoP, "Well, Harry,' said Dumbledore, finally turning away from the baby bird, "you will be pleased to hear that none of your fellow students are going to suffer lasting damage from the night's events."

Although, this also bothers me a tad. "According to Madam Pomfrey, thoughts could leave deeper scarring than almost anything else, though since she had started applying copious amounts of Dr Ubbly's Oblivious Unction there seemed to have been some improvement." I do think Ron is going to be ok from the brain attack.

Edited: Underline mine. Pam



Potions Mistress - Sep 25, 2004 1:07 pm (#1188 of 1957)

Does anyone think there is some sort of connection of Ron being attacked by the brains and not Hermione?

~pm



Upulwan - Sep 25, 2004 10:01 pm (#1189 of 1957)

lol, PM, that was funny Smile Seriously though, I wondered about that too. It's too much of a coincidence not to have any connection, what with Hermione being literally a 'brain', so to speak. (The attack aspect of it isn't really any different to what we see of their daily interaction by the way. Hermione constantly snapping at Ron to.. well, get a brain, to paraphrase the usual run of things.) And if we follow the scene all the way through, you could say that Ron invited the attack, since he Accio'd it out of its tub, although he presumably didn't know what he was doing since he was under that laughing spell. Hmmm. Sunday afternoon, too warm to think.



Mrs Brisbee - Sep 29, 2004 12:11 pm (#1190 of 1957)

All right, I'm having trouble stopping laughing, because when Ron got the brain the first thing he says is that he doesn't like it.



Catherine - Sep 29, 2004 12:25 pm (#1191 of 1957)

Interestingly, Ron was mentally affected by his experience in the DoM. He was hit with a spell that made him seem intoxicated, or "funny" in the head. He was attacked by "thoughts," which left scarring.

Hermione was injured in a more physical manner, although she is the acknowledged "brain" of the Trio.



Hermy-own - Sep 29, 2004 5:16 pm (#1192 of 1957)

There is too much here for this to simply be coincidence.

Good on Rowling for leaving us with yet another puzzle to ponder, and good on Catherine for spotting it.

Hermy.



rebecca dorgelo - Sep 29, 2004 8:36 pm (#1193 of 1957)

in terms of the 'attack' of the brains, they didn't actually attack Ron, he called them to him. In a way this could be symbolising his quest for more wisdom, 'brains', maturity - I think the effect of the brains on Ron will to make him a bit deeper - he might stare into space a little, having profound thoughts.

also, to go back in time a bit to the idea that Ron Bilius Weasly might die because Bilius did (foreshadowing), I am not inclined towards this at all. It seems to me that such foreshadowing is not something that JK would do, as it would seem derivative and repeditive rather than as brilliant and original as we know her to be.

yay, I finally read all the Ron posts...



Hermy-own - Sep 30, 2004 1:52 am (#1194 of 1957)
Edited Sep 30, 2004 2:53 am

I like the point you make about Ron and his quest for 'brains'.

With intelligence not being his strongsuit we could say he was relatively susceptible to such an attack. Would the brains have affected, say Hermione, in the same way, or would she have had the mental substance to shake off the whole thing and to continue fighting the DE's?



Paulus Maximus - Sep 30, 2004 7:24 am (#1195 of 1957)

Saying that Ron would die because Bilius did is like saying that Harry would die because James did...



Catherine - Sep 30, 2004 7:46 am (#1196 of 1957)

I think the "Bilius" name is JKR having fun at Ron's expense.

Ron is known for his appetitte and packing away large amounts of food, so having his middle name stand for a digestive upset is amusing. There is also the unfortunate slug-vomiting incident in Ron's past, too.

Finally, connecting the name "Bilius" shows how much more superstitious Ron is than either Hermione or Harry, especially since Ron's Uncle Bilius supposedly saw the Grim before he died.

I don't think that JKR is indicating Ron's imminent death with the name Bilius. I think she's just being amusing.



mike miller - Sep 30, 2004 8:41 am (#1197 of 1957)

With intelligence not being his strongsuit - Hermy-own

I don't think Ron is short on intelligence, it's his confidence in apllying what he knows and trusting his instincts that are his short suit. Having 5 older brothers has given Ron a serious inferiority complex. I think Ron knows more than he gets credit for, he's almost always the one who knows about "Wizard" things, i.e., dragons, grims etc. He has enough cognative skill to be a good wizard chess player, that takes strategy and forethought. He just doesn't trust himself.



Daioma Dumbledore - Sep 30, 2004 5:24 pm (#1198 of 1957)

Mike, I completely agree with you on the Ron lacking confidence not brains idea. He has shown on many occasions that he is quite intelligent, but I do think he suffers a bit from "talking before thinking" syndrome, which I'm sure most of us have been guilty of on at least one occasion.

As for having five older brothers, that plays a big part. Trust me I Have 6 older brothers & 1 older sister and it can be tough to try and live up to whatever they have achieved, Ron just needs to realize he's his own person, not any of his brothers, which I'm sure we'll see him do.



S.E. Jones - Oct 4, 2004 9:50 pm (#1199 of 1957)

TwinklingBlueEyes (#1177): I think for the moment I'm going to take Dumbledore's word in OoP, "Well, Harry,' said Dumbledore, finally turning away from the baby bird, "you will be pleased to hear that none of your fellow students are going to suffer lasting damage from the night's events."

There're other ways to look at that sentence, if you stress other words:

"you will be pleased to hear that none of your fellow students are going to suffer lasting damage from the night's events." (which might mean that the results are good, not damaging) and

"you will be pleased to hear that none of your fellow students are going to suffer lasting damage from the night's events." (which might mean that there will be damage but it won't last forever, which leads very well into Madam Pomfrey's statement of 'thoughts [can] leave deeper scarring than almost anything else').

So, the brains could've had an affect afterall. It could be a good affect or just a relatively short-lived affect.



Daioma Dumbledore - Oct 4, 2004 10:49 pm (#1200 of 1957)

SEJ, on your "the brains could've had an effect afterall" thought, I just had a funny little idea, that one of the things they could of done was fill Ron with a heap of new knowledge, and every now & then he'll sprout out one of these random obscure facts without even thinking about it, and then wonder how in the world he knows these things. I think it could be quite comical coming from Ron.

On the negative side, which I think could maybe be more of a possibility after seeing Ron's reaction when the brain attached itself to him "No , get it off, I don't like it" (something to that effect) he could also suffer the horrible memories of someone else, after all, we don't know where the brain comes from. If this is the case, then with Madam Pomfrey's potion, hopefully these memories will fade over time.
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