Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry

Lady Arabella Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:50 pm

The following is an archive of material originally posted on the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum hosted by World Crossing, which ceased operations on April 15th, 2011

Several Forum members had some great predictions or prescient thoughts about future HP events, listed below in the spoiler section.

Spoiler:

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Lady Arabella Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:55 pm

Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry
Sir Tornado - Jul 30, 2004 9:21 pm Reply
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 17, 2005 1:23 pm

I was really surprised to see that there was not a single thread devoted to our beloved school. Hogwarts is the most important place in the Books. This is the place where most of the story is placed. Want to discuss anything about your favourite School? This is the place.

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Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 31, 2004 7:28 am (#1 of 306)
Edited Jul 31, 2004 8:29 am

OK, this would be a good place to move the discussion: is Slytherin an evil House, or just misunderstood?

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Sir Tornado - Jul 31, 2004 7:59 am (#2 of 306)

Luke; House can't be good or evil. It's the attitude of the Housemembers that counts.

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vball man - Jul 31, 2004 10:12 am (#3 of 306)

But you could say that, in this case, the House is defined by the attitudes of its members.

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Sir Tornado - Jul 31, 2004 10:20 am (#4 of 306)

Yes and No. Hermione and Ron have very different attitudes, still, they're both in Gryffindor.

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Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 31, 2004 10:48 am (#5 of 306)

But Ron and Hermione are both good. Everyone (almost) in Gryffindor is good; hence, the House is good. Or so goes the theory. So, what about Slytherin? Must it always have evil members?

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Sir Tornado - Jul 31, 2004 11:04 am (#6 of 306)

Peter Pettigrew isn't good. Snape isn't bad.(I hope.)

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schoff - Jul 31, 2004 11:58 am (#7 of 306)

Hermione and Ron have very different attitudes, still, they're both in Gryffindor

They may have different personalities, but they have the same qualities and philosophies, which is what the Sorting Hat looks for.

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 31, 2004 12:06 pm (#8 of 306)

To quote McGonagall, "Each house has its own noble history and each has produced outstanding witches and wizards."

Also, the Sorting Hat tells us that Godric Gryffindor and Salazar Slytherin were the closest of friends. Does that suggest that Slytherin was evil?

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Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 31, 2004 12:10 pm (#9 of 306)

McGonagall does everything by the rules, so she's not going to insult Slytherin (unless she happens to be very ticked off at the moment). And heroes and villains can be good friends.

What I'm really asking is: does anyone here believe that JKR will ever give us a good Slytherin student? Not necesarily as a major character, but even just as a DA member or something who fights alongside the heroes? I personally don't go for the "good Malfoy" or Harry/Pansy 'ship ideas, but hey... I'm probably wrong...

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Star Crossed - Jul 31, 2004 12:14 pm (#10 of 306)

I think we could have a 'good' Slytherin student, but if it's someone we know, I'll be disappointed.

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Prefect Marcus - Jul 31, 2004 12:30 pm (#11 of 306)

What I'm really asking is: does anyone here believe that JKR will ever give us a good Slytherin student?

Yes, absolutely. Otherwise many of the themes in the series will have a massive hole in them.

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Madame Librarian - Jul 31, 2004 1:52 pm (#12 of 306)
Edited Jul 31, 2004 2:53 pm

Luke, McGonagall doesn't always follow rules!! She got Harry on the Quidditch team even though he was a first year, not to mention that he never really got punished or even a strong reprimand for disobeying Madam Hooch's instructions, she sent him his first broom, though technically there may be no rule covering this, it is a form of favoritism that she would usually frown on, and the best of all, she gave Peeves that wonderful tip, "It turns the other way."

So, sorry this is not on topic, but I just didn't want anyone to get the wrong impression at this late date about dear Professor McGonagall.

Ciao. Barb

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Detail Seeker - Jul 31, 2004 2:18 pm (#13 of 306)

The bad old "Good" vs. "Evil"-question.

Most Slytherins would certainly not call themselves evil, nor do the DEs. Tom Riddle speaks of fulfilling "the noble quest of Salazar Slytherin". They have their own ideas about "good" and "bad". They may be different from those of the other Houses, but they represent a way of thoughts well established in the WW, the DEs awfully radicalized and led by a very undesirable person, of whom I wondered, how he found followers in the first place. He does not seem the charismatic leader, but a petty little tyrant from a satirical magazine.

Side note: It is perhaps one of the larger drawbacks of this series, that JKR has more and more difficulties in describing honorary enemies of her position - they all look too much like caricatures. End side note

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ex-FAHgeek - Jul 31, 2004 7:29 pm (#14 of 306)

McGonagall doesn't always follow rules!! She got Harry on the Quidditch team even though he was a first year

Actually, she did follow the rules in this case. She went to Dumbledore and petitioned to get the rule amended. The amended rule allowed Harry on the team.

Everyone has to love her interactions with Peeves in OotP, though! I adored McGonegall and Flitwick in that book.

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Sir Tornado - Jul 31, 2004 11:21 pm (#15 of 306)

Here's my opinion on the Good-vs-Evil issue.

There is no good or evil; there is only power and those too weak to seek it. I believe in this ideology. One of the nature's laws is "Kill or be killed". However, I believe killing is justified only if it's done for a good reason. Voldemort wants to "purify" WW. So, he kills Muggle-borns. So, in his POV, he's not evil. He believes it is justified. Those who feel killing Muggle-borns is not justified, see Voldemort as an evil wizard. The same goes for the Slytherins. They may not view themselves as evil; but others might. We think they are evil because we read from Harry's POV. What some people view as evil, others may see differently.

BTW, how many of you have read "Arsene Lupin" stories written by Leblanc? If you have, did you see Arsene Lupin as an evil person? I did not. However, had I read those stories from the cop's POV, I would've thought Arsene Lupin as an evil person.

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Lars Smedberg - Aug 1, 2004 1:44 am (#16 of 306)

Let's talk about something else, shall we? How many towers does Hogwarts have ? Four, I thought; the Gryffindor tower, Professor Trelawney's tower, the tower of the owls and the astronomy tower. But isn't there some place in HP#5 where they say that the Ravenclaws also had a tower ?

As for Gryffindor and Slytherin; they WERE once the closest of friends, but sadly enough, their friendship ceased...

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Sir Tornado - Aug 1, 2004 2:43 am (#17 of 306)

Lars, on the back of the British edition of CoS, there is a painting of Hogwarts castle. In that painting, many towers are shown; not just 4. I guess that's a canon then?

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Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 1, 2004 10:12 am (#18 of 306)

I don't think the pictures are usually canon. However, I think it would make sense for there to be more than 4 towers...

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[E., Marie]Marie E. - Aug 1, 2004 10:25 am (#19 of 306)

There's a North Tower mentioned. That's Trelawney's tower, isn't it?

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schoff - Aug 1, 2004 12:29 pm (#20 of 306)

The Castle has many turrets and towers (P/SS 6 111 US):

Divination is at the top of the North Tower. (PA 6 99 US)
Gryffindor is a tower (P/SS 7 130 US)
There is an Astronomy Tower (OoP 31 718 US)
Ravenclaws have a tower on the west side (OoP 18 396 US)
I can't find any mention of the Owlery being a tower, although it is mentioned as a circular room (OoP 14 282 US) I'm sure it's mentioned somewhere else, but I just can't seem to find it.

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Aug 1, 2004 12:53 pm (#21 of 306)

Methinks DD's office is a tower too.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 1, 2004 1:43 pm (#22 of 306)
Edited Aug 1, 2004 2:49 pm

I just noticed something. Both Gryffindor and Ravenclaw house are located in towers. While, Hufflepuff house is located in a cellar like rooms and Slytherin is located in a dungeon under the lake.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 2, 2004 1:57 am (#23 of 306)

The thing that interests me is where the graveyard is. Is it near the Forbidden Forest, or does DD not mind teenagers messing around in graveyards?

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Sir Tornado - Aug 2, 2004 2:43 am (#24 of 306)

What's wrong in visiting Graveyards? Pay respects to dead, you know. Perfectly respectable.

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RowanRising - Aug 2, 2004 6:37 am (#25 of 306)

I think there still exists a sort of mystery surrounding Salazar and Godric- and their parting of ways. It's oversimplified when told by Binns for expediency and perhaps because there’s more to be told than is known. How could Salazar and Godric be the BEST of friends, and suddenly *poof* Salazar hates muggle-borns and creates the chamber and all the rest... You get the point. There's more here than meets the eye. Many of the qualities Salazar values are NOT inherently evil: resourcefulness, determination. The whole point of Book One is CHOICE. By assuming all Slytherin house students are evil, you take away that oh so important and undeniable truth.

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RowanRising - Aug 2, 2004 6:40 am (#26 of 306)

Oh- and there's nothing wrong with visiting graveyards per se. But not every teenager is as mature and respectful as you are Tornedo- I would imagine that given the opportunity, a graveyard where teenagers are allowed to hang out would quickly become desecrated in some manner.

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Sir Tornado - Aug 2, 2004 8:49 am (#27 of 306)

They could be magically charmed to repair themselves.

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RowanRising - Aug 2, 2004 8:58 am (#28 of 306)

It's not just a matter of physical desecration. Can you imagine Draco et all hanging out and doing devious things over YOUR final resting place? blegh!

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Chris. - Aug 2, 2004 10:55 am (#29 of 306)

Respecting the dead, and hanging around a graveyard in a lazy manner are two different things. Even if there was a "magically repairing charm", I still wouldn't like to think that the students hung about there.

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Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 2, 2004 11:12 am (#30 of 306)

The graveyard by where I live is not fenced in; people go there all the time. I've never seen beer cans or anything implying anyone being disrespectful there. Yes, it's not at a school, but it's pretty near several...

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Sir Tornado - Aug 2, 2004 7:27 pm (#31 of 306)

Yes; I believe young people especially teenagers should visit graveyards. You feel a different feeling; spiritually; inside a graveyard. You feel really calm; and assured. There is also a feeling of a certain amount of sorrow. I get a bit philosophical every time I visit a graveyard. That is if you don't believe in nonsense like Ghosts and evil spirits. If you believe and are scared of them, it is advisable to stay away from them.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 3, 2004 5:36 am (#32 of 306)

Tornedo - Nearly Headless Nick is going to be really insulted. Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry 464751818

Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry 464751818

But large numbers of people believe in evil spirits (or demons) and aren't scared of them.

About graveyards. They can be dangerous places, especially around teenagers like Fred and George. I was going to say that surely Dumbledore would try and protect children from injury in such a place but then looking at all the accidents in the books, and the vast number of people who appear to be in the hospital wing both in books and films - well maybe some of them are there because they showed too little respect for a gravestone and it fell on them.

The graveyard near me is open, as part of the Church grounds. But there are warning signs up concerning accidents. So there must be some form of warning about the graveyard.

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Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 3, 2004 7:42 am (#33 of 306)
Edited Aug 3, 2004 8:42 am

Could you please explain to me what's dangerous about a graveyard? Undead rising up or something? (sarcastic!)

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azi - Aug 3, 2004 8:21 am (#34 of 306)

There's the chance large gravestones can topple onto people. You can trip over gravestones or trip over nothing and hit your head on a gravestone. I remember about two years ago a young boy was killed when a grave fell over onto him. Also, many graveyards in cities are now areas for drug addicts to get their stuff and fights often occur. People often get stabbed or shot in them because of drug and other disputes. People are often attacked and mugged because they are alone in a fairly remote and quiet place where there is very little chance of being heard. Just last week a woman was assaulted in the my local town centre graveyard.

In all, graveyards, in towns and cities particularly, are not places to go on your own. In villages like where I live, the graveyard is no more dangerous than your garden (with the exception a stone may fall on you). I happen to live right next to my village churchyard and I've never known anything bad happen there.

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Star Crossed - Aug 3, 2004 8:29 am (#35 of 306)

In my local graveyard, we have a lot of trees (Well, we have trees everywhere, we are Penn's Woods for a reason.) and it seems they're always being cut in two by lightening, even more than anywhere else.

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zelmia - Aug 3, 2004 7:08 pm (#36 of 306)
Edited Aug 3, 2004 8:08 pm

The first I ever heard of a graveyard at Hogwarts was in reading on the Forum about Cuaron wanting to show it in the PA movie. There is no mention of it in the books - yet. (As for the inherent dangers of a graveyard, it sounds incredible that an entire "grave" was able to topple over onto someone's head! Was this boy down in the bottom of it?)

But as for the number of towers, I thought there were something like 7, but I can only think of these: Gryffindor Tower, Ravenclaw Tower, Astronomy Tower (where they climbed to give Norbert to Charlie's friends). The Owlry is not mentioned as a "tower" per se, but there are stairs up to it (GF). Now that's only 4, which would seem to be standard for a square-shaped castle. Dumbledore lives above the 7th floor, possibly a tower, but then again, it might just be part of the main body of the castle.

The layout of the castle itself is pretty non-specific, other than where certain classrooms are mentioned by location. But the towers are all mentioned by name, as far as I can recall. I'm sure someone will correct me...

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Madame Librarian - Aug 3, 2004 7:46 pm (#37 of 306)

For what it's worth, there's a wonderful map, floor-by-floor, of Hogwarts and grounds on the Lexicon. I know it's not canon, but since Steve accepted it as the best there is given that no similar item has been created by JKR or her illustrators, we might do well to use that as a jumping off point for discussion.

Here's a link to the ground floor map--
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Once you get there you can find the other screens. There's also a map of the surrounding grounds.

Hope this helps.

Ciao. Barb

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Sir Tornado - Aug 4, 2004 12:11 am (#38 of 306)

Atlas is great. I really want to be at Hogwarts now. I'm so jealous of all Hogwarts students.

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Elanor - Aug 4, 2004 12:33 am (#39 of 306)

One thing has always puzzled me : the people who built the castle had in mind to build a school, didn't they ? So, what did they need DUNGEONS for? Because, from an architectural point of view, medieval dungeons are far more than just undergrounds. You could find two sorts of dungeons :

- the dungeons which were just prisons, very useful in a very troubled period (wars and snags between lords almost never stopped during the Middle Ages), but quite useless in a school, except if we admit that Hogwarts could have been attacked and his teachers could have taken prisoners. In that case, I would love to hear the whys and wherefores !

- the dungeons which were in fact “donjons.” They were defense towers, with no ground-floor door : you could get in only from inside the castle, or by the first floor (with a ladder which could be removed if the castle was attacked). The most interesting part is that there was a huge room, under the first floor, without windows where medieval people kept wood, supply, weapons. And in that room, you could always find a secret door which gave access to an underground passage. This passage was leading to the forest which was often close to the castle. If Hogwart's dungeons are donjons, well, I would love to know where such passages are ending in the Hogwart's Forest... More, on the floor of this room, always were a trap door too, and underneath, you could find oubliettes... I wish I knew what Slytherin could have put in them...

Well, maybe I just split hairs, but still, I think there is something to find there, don't you?

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Lars Smedberg - Aug 4, 2004 2:41 am (#40 of 306)

Was Hogwarts really a school from the beginning ? I really can't remember; is it said that the 4 founders BUILT the castle themselves - or is it possible that they "took over" an already existing castle and made it into a school; finding new ways to use dungeons and so on...?

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Elanor - Aug 4, 2004 3:13 am (#41 of 306)

I don't think so. The Sorting Hat said Hogwarts was founded a thousand years ago. The founders may have settled in a castle that already existed, but they couldn't have found some dungeons in it, because the first castles built of stones date back to the 10th century and dungeons really appeared in the 11th and 12th centuries, that is to say at least a century after Hogwart's foundation. Before the 10th century, castles were made of wood and were surrounded by ditches.

Besides, Scotland of that time was a very poor land, which wasn't inhabited much and where the way of life was still rather primitive till the 9th century. Then, it is really doubtful that a huge stone made castle would have already existed there in the 10th century.

And even so such dungeons would have already been there, the fact that there must be secrets passages and rooms remains, and who settled there? Slytherin...

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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 4, 2004 6:47 am (#42 of 306)

Re: the dangers of graveyards. Recently there has been upset near where I live due to the local authorities laying down tombstones because "there was a danger they might fall over". Red tape even gets you when you're dead!!!! But most of the tombs would probably be the type with large stone boxes (sepulchers?) over the top. Imagine George and Fred having a picnic on them. May be the undead may join them for a piece of quiche.

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Julia. - Aug 4, 2004 8:24 am (#43 of 306)
Edited Aug 4, 2004 9:25 am

To go back a post or two, it does indeed say that the four founders built the castle.

“You all know, of course, that Hogwarts was founded over a thousand years ago--the precise date is uncertian--by the four greatest witches and wizards of the age. The four school Houses are named after them: Godric Gryffindor, Helga Hufflepuff, Rowena Ravenclaw, and Salazar Slytherin. They built this castle together, far from prying Muggle eyes, for it was an age when magic was feared by common people, and witches and wizards suffered much persecution.” (CoS ch. 9, pg. 150, US) (underline mine)

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Madame Librarian - Aug 4, 2004 9:59 am (#44 of 306)

The question about the dungeons is whether they were house areas from the get-go, built to the founders' designs, or if they were dungeons originally--and therefore all that dungeons imply--and then taken over as common rooms and dorms at a later stage.

If they were originally built as dungeons, the question might then be, why would a school for young wizards need prison area? Aha! Remember dear Filch bemoaning the lax discipline of the current-day administration? The implication is clear--detention (or worse) used to be in the dungeons. Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry 2281877974

Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry 2281877974

Half joking here.

Ciao. Barb

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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 4, 2004 10:57 am (#45 of 306)

Madame Librarian, the dungeons were built for disciplinary purposes as Filch mentioned in CoS. As such another series of questions may then be raised. First, did each house have a dungeon or where the only dungeons located under the lake Second, when did the dungeons cease serving a disciplinary function? I believe it may have been as recently as the late nineteenth or early twentieth century, because Filch seems to have memories of the old punishment.

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zelmia - Aug 4, 2004 1:24 pm (#46 of 306)

I am kind of on the fence on this one, although I am leaning toward the "donjon" idea.

What puzzles me is, if the Dungeons were used for "Detention" why have more than one? NHN says he is having his Death Day Party "...in one of the roomier dungeons." And the Trio spent rather a lot of time trying to find it. Why the necessity for multiple dungeons if they weren't built for some other purpose originally? Unless there were dungeons for Detention, and Donjons for storage and other purposes...

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Elanor - Aug 4, 2004 2:41 pm (#47 of 306)
Edited Aug 4, 2004 3:42 pm

Well, maybe dungeons were used as a prison area for students, but I doubt that it was their first use. In the Middle Ages, wars were very different from what they were later. In fact, as war was very expensive, each side wanted to take prisoners first, rich and/or important if possible, and then asked for a ransom (remember what happened to Richard the Lion Hart...). That's what huge dungeons were made for. If they have been built with that aim, then, who were their enemies ?

And, again, if they were donjons, there MUST be some secret passages, but I don't remember Fred and George speaking of a passage coming from a dungeon. Could it be so well protected that it doesn't appear on the Marauder's Map ? If it is, well, where it is leading has to be really special, isn't it?

Julia : thanks a lot for the quote !

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ex-FAHgeek - Aug 4, 2004 4:30 pm (#48 of 306)

I'd always assumed "dungeons" to be more in the Dungeons & Dragons sense... the underground catacombs/basement of the castle, as opposed to a prison cell (although Filch does mention the "old punishments" he used to love and time in a dungeon may have been one of them...)

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The Wandless Wizard - Aug 4, 2004 4:52 pm (#49 of 306)

I would have to agree with ex-FAHgeek here. The Dungeons are just the basement of the castle. They are referred to as dungeons, not to imply torture, but to give the castle a medieval feel. I doubt JKR extensively researched types and uses of dungeons. Although I could be wrong.

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schoff - Aug 4, 2004 6:21 pm (#50 of 306)

I doubt JKR extensively researched types and uses of dungeons.

Plus, it's pretty lame to say that Potions takes place in the basement....The word "dungeon" pretty much sums up the misery Harry experiences during every class he has with Snape. That's probably what JKR was going for.

Lady Arabella Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:58 pm

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Madame Librarian - Aug 4, 2004 6:51 pm (#51 of 306)

There is no way that JKR could have had such a successful result with the HP series if there were no dungeons at Hogwarts. It's just exactly the kind of place that must have dungeons, regardless of use or origin. Schoff is absolutely on it--"basement" is just too lame.

As to the size and number of dungeons being overkill (!) if they're just for disciplinary purposes, well...maybe there were times when lots of students had detention. Things were stricter then, we're told.

Ciao. Barb

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Sir Tornado - Aug 4, 2004 8:14 pm (#52 of 306)

Would someone please explain to me the difference between a "Cellar, a "Dungeon" and a "Basement"?

Thanks!

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Julia. - Aug 4, 2004 8:49 pm (#53 of 306)
Edited Aug 4, 2004 9:51 pm

Well Tornado, all three are underground, but they all have different connotations. I've always thought of a cellar as the place where you go to be safe during a tornado, a dungeon as a place to keep prisoners, and a basement as a place to keep your stuff.

Dictionary.com says...

Cellar:
1) A room or enclosed space used for storage, usually beneath the ground or under a building.
2) A basement.
3) An underground shelter, as from storms.
4) A wine cellar.
5) Slang. The last place or lowest level, especially in competitive standings: The team came from the cellar to win the pennant.

Dungeon:
1) A dark, often underground chamber or cell used to confine prisoners.
2) A donjon.
3) n: The main tower within the walls of a medieval castle or fortress [syn: keep, donjon]
4) A dark cell (usually underground) where prisoners can be confined

Basement:
1) The substructure or foundation of a building.
2) The lowest habitable story of a building, usually below ground level.
3) Geology. A complex of undifferentiated igneous and metamorphic rocks underlying sedimentary strata.
4)Slang. The last place or lowest level, as in competitive standings.
5) Chiefly New England. A public toilet, especially one in a school

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Sir Tornado - Aug 4, 2004 8:59 pm (#54 of 306)

Thanks Julia.

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Elanor - Aug 4, 2004 11:20 pm (#55 of 306)
Edited Aug 5, 2004 12:21 am

Well, that's true that Hogwarts had to have dungeons for the story's background. But I also think JKR knows exactly what a dungeon is. You don't have to do a lot of researches to find this out. In England, as in France and most other countries in Europe, there are castles everywhere, and it is likely that most people have already visited one once (with school, on holidays...). And when you visit one, the most impressive part is often the dungeon ! I think I've read that JKR has teached in Scotland...

More, if you read Quidditch through the Ages you will find out that her historic background is really credible. And (thanks again Julia) you just have to open a dictionary and search for "fortified castle" to know his evolution, and I bet she is far more particular concerning researches than that !

But the more interesting part concerning the dungeons is that they haven't show us all their possibilities. I still like the idea of a secret passage leading to the Forbidden Forest and used once by Slytherin...

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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 5, 2004 4:52 pm (#56 of 306)
Edited Aug 5, 2004 6:01 pm

I have always wondered if there is more than one entrance to the Chamber of Secrets. Because, I doubt that location of the entrance that is known to readers could provide a male easy access in the time before Myrtle's death in 1942.

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Madame Librarian - Aug 5, 2004 7:16 pm (#57 of 306)

Hey, Nathan, that's a very good point! It's also quite funny, something JKR could very well use as a humorous vignette in the history of the Chamber if she even included that as part of the story.

Just imagine the dialogue--

“Merlin's beard! We've scoured every possible place in this whole castle. It's got to be in this hallway, in this bathroom.”

“Well, blimey. You're not getting me to step foot in there, mate. It's the girl's toilet. If we get caught, we'll never live it down.”

Ciao. Barb

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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 6, 2004 3:19 pm (#58 of 306)
Edited Aug 6, 2004 4:20 pm

Another question I have about Hogwarts relates to the trap door on the third floor. In Philosopher's Stone, Harry tells Hermione to go to the owlery and send a message to Dumbledore.

How did Hermione and Ron get to the owlery because, they would have had a difficult, if not impossible task, getting past Fluffy on the return trip.

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Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 6, 2004 3:25 pm (#59 of 306)

He was probably still asleep.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 6, 2004 3:37 pm (#60 of 306)
Edited Aug 6, 2004 4:39 pm

Luke E.A. Lockhart, that's not possible.

“The distant music stopped. There was a loud bark from the dog, but Hermione had already jumped.” Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone page 380 Large Print Edition printed by Thorndike Press

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Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 6, 2004 3:50 pm (#61 of 306)

Oh. Sorry.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 6, 2004 4:39 pm (#62 of 306)
Edited Aug 6, 2004 5:43 pm

Luke, it was a good thought. I only came across that passage in my most recent re-reading. I am sorry I was so terse.

I am leaning toward the theory that there is an alternate passageway out of the series of rooms leading to the chamber containing the stone.

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zelmia - Aug 6, 2004 5:09 pm (#63 of 306)
Edited Aug 6, 2004 6:10 pm

They would have used the brooms from the flying key room to get up there. Since Fluffy wouldn't have been expecting anyone coming the other way (i.e from below) perhaps the element of surprise would have worked in their favour again. Or maybe they would have just flown out the window and not had to deal with Fluffy at all.

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Leila 2X4B - Aug 6, 2004 5:17 pm (#64 of 306)

Or they could have used Harry's flute that he got from Hagrid for Christmas.

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zelmia - Aug 6, 2004 5:45 pm (#65 of 306)

One thing I have always wondered about is the name "Hogwarts". Where does this come from? Apart from Rowling's imagination, I mean. See, we really need Hogwarts, A History!

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MrsGump - Aug 7, 2004 6:56 am (#66 of 306)

Oh, I just read this.

Family Education, 1999:

Q: “How do you come up with names?”

A: “Some I make up. Some mean something. Dumbledore is olde English for bumblebee. I thought I made up Hogwarts, but recently a friend said, 'Remember we saw lilies in Kew gardens (a garden in London.)' Apparently there are lilies there called Hogwarts. I'd forgotten!”

Maybe the field the founding fathers choose was covered in lilies? Isn't that a pretty image. :-)

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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 13, 2004 4:46 am (#67 of 306)

Just as Hogwarts has four houses (Gryffindor, Slytherin, Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw) so other boarding schools have houses.

Ronald Searle, who did the original sketches of the St Trinian's Girls, illustrated a series of books by Geoffrey Willans about a boy called Molesworth. He went to a British public school - St Cuthbert's. And according to "the Complete Molesworth" (the four Moleswoth books in one) his house was called Hogwarts. But I doubt that the founders of Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry would have read such a tome. Though I think the sense of humour in the books would appeal to Dumbledore, and possibly to JKR.

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Chris. - Sep 3, 2004 12:30 pm (#68 of 306)
Edited Sep 3, 2004 1:30 pm

I'm answering some of Demiguise's question that are more suited to this thread.

I have decided to start this thread in order to discuss a topic very close to my heart - toilets! I mean how many does Hogwarts have? Where are they? Do they really flush straight into the lake? And what if Harry wants to go in the middle of the night, the books have never mentioned the Gryffindors using chamberpots, for which we can all be grateful. And what about baths we know the prefects have them but what about everyone else? And just were do the teachers live anyway?

There are at least three bathrooms that I have picked up on. One is Moaning Myrtle's on either the 1st or second floor. The other is the Prefect bathroom, and another is one where girls cornered Hermione to talk to her about Harry. Probably the toilet.. hem... contents to go to the Lake but it's such a huge lake, I doubt it won't matter. Hem hem... on another matter... I'm sure we all know what happens when Harry or Ron go to the toilet or for a bath, that JKR doesn't really need to mention it. After all, it would be a very boring book.

The teachers seem to have their own quarters. What they look like, I do not know.

And Demiguise, great name!

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Sir Tornado - Sep 3, 2004 7:28 pm (#69 of 306)

I guess there will be at least 4 toilets on each floor at Hogwarts. No evidence; but surely...

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shepherdess - Sep 4, 2004 12:11 am (#70 of 306)

Prongs, did you forget the one with the troll in PS/SS? I wonder if they repaired the damage done by the troll?

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Good Evans - Sep 5, 2004 5:58 am (#71 of 306)

I think that this belongs on this thread. It has always concerned me about the lack of washing facilities. In five years, Harry has taken a bath and washed his hair once!!!!! (I am assuming he showers after quidditch matches (reference to wood trying to drown himself in them) but these aren't that often and Harry has a habit of missing the end of match shower when he ends up in the hospital wing! I wondered if the magicians magicked themselves clean - but that doesn't explain the lack of bathing during the summer holidays at Grimmauld place, 4 Privet drive or the Burrow. Perhaps it is just teenage boys??

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Chris. - Sep 5, 2004 6:04 am (#72 of 306)

I'm sure there are baths at Hogwarts, and certainly at the Burrow and Privet Drive. Not too sure about Grimmauld Place with all the ghoulies. I think HRH and others do have baths and showers, but JKR doesn't see the point of describing their washing schedules.

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zelmia - Sep 7, 2004 9:05 pm (#73 of 306)

I personally would like to think that the "toilet contents" do NOT end up in the lake, as it certainly WOULD matter, regardless of how large the lake might be. Ewww!!! Last time I read the chapter entitled "The Second Task” . . . eww.

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Maddest Dragon - Sep 8, 2004 10:34 am (#74 of 306)

Well, human waste can become harmless dirt after many years of decomposition... so maybe wizarding plumbing involves some kind of magic to speed up the process. Maybe it's nothing but minute particles by the time it reaches the lake.

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Gryphonlord - Sep 11, 2004 8:51 am (#75 of 306)

This is a bit out-dated, but on the dungeon subject: Hogwarts is enormous. It's towers probably stretch to hundreds of feet in the air, as muggles wouldn't be able to do that with just stone, and JKR said it's not a place muggles can build. Therefore, the foundations of the building would be deep underground. You have to do something with that space, so why not carve hundreds of dungeons out of it?

After all, we know that Hogwarts has far too many rooms for only a thousand students, and these are just above ground, so why not delve below? As for the towers, the quote in the first book specifically states: "many towers and turrets". I always imagine the castle as a vast cluster of these towers, many of them over twenty stories high, joined by large stretches of seven-story wings in between. And the Owlery is in a tower, the top of West Tower, I believe; I think that's in books three and five. Dumbledore's office is at the top of a tower or near it, because it has windows in three different directions, south, east, and west (I've made detailed recordings of every description of the castle in the books. I hope I can put it online someday.)

One more ramble: I think there must be baths and toilets in the House towers/buildings. If you think about it, the Gryff. common room is large and circular, on the 7th floor of its tower. Above it are the circular dorms. They might be about half the diameter of the common room, so that leaves plenty of space to install multiple bathrooms and WC's. She never said they weren't there, so why not?

Okay, a bit more. Sorry this is so long, but I'm new here. I think the teachers must have "apartments" somewhere in the castle, maybe near their offices. Dumbledore has only one door into his study, so I think that it must be only an office and not living quarters. That's why he had to leave at five-thirty in the morning to find the Room of Requirement by accident: he has no bathroom of his own, due to the old-fashioned design of the castle. Well, I think that's it. Any thoughts on this appreciated Smile

.

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Choices - Sep 11, 2004 9:21 am (#76 of 306)
Edited Sep 11, 2004 10:23 am

Two questions - one going back to the posts around #22 - I thought the Ravenclaws were down in the dungeons near the Slytherins. When Harry and Ron took the Polyjuice Potion and went down to the Slytherin common room as Crabb and Goyle, didn't they meet Percy and it was decided he had been down there to see Penelope Clearwater - a Ravenclaw? I thought it was the Hufflepuffs who were higher up in the castle. Am I confused? Maybe there are four main towers and other smaller towers.

Also, I do not ever remember reading a reference to a graveyard on the Hogwarts grounds - can someone point me to it?

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Choices - Sep 11, 2004 9:28 am (#77 of 306)

Re post #75 - In the COS movie when Harry is taken to Dumbledore's office (the time Fawkes catches fire) and Dumbledore enters on that balcony up the stairs, I always thought maybe that was his living quarters up there. I have always figured the professor's living quarters were near or behind their offices.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 11, 2004 10:19 am (#78 of 306)

Choices,that is an interesting Idea that would mean that Snape's office is in a dungeon.

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Gryphonlord - Sep 11, 2004 11:26 am (#79 of 306)

RE post 77 - I do not look at the movies as canon, even though Rowling did play a role in their production. Compare the description of DD's office with the one pictured in the films and you'll see that they are very different. In answer to your other query, Penelope was only downstairs to meet Percy, I believe anyway, as they needed an unused area of the castle to do some "snogging".

The fifth book states that the Ravenclaws have a common room in the West Wing of the castle; (see the part where Harry meets Cho in the Owlery early morning). Hufflepuffs, however, are down below, or at least, the route to their rooms are down below, as Cedric passes through the stairs leading to the kitchens and lower cellars of the castle.

And it may be that the House towers are very much taller than the others as they have to accommodate rooms for 250 students, five to a room. That makes about 50 dorms per House. Two per floor makes it 25 floors above the common room! That's some tower!

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Gryphonlord - Sep 11, 2004 12:16 pm (#80 of 306)
Edited Sep 11, 2004 1:17 pm

Choices: In reference to the graveyard, J.K.R. protested when Cuaron wanted one in the 3rd movie, because, she said, there would be one somewhere in the sixth book, and that it is an important plot-point, I think. Hope that clears things up for you.

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schoff - Sep 11, 2004 2:34 pm (#81 of 306)

Choices: I thought the Ravenclaws were down in the dungeons near the Slytherins.

OoP 18 US396:

“He [Harry] pulled out the Marauder's Map again and checked it carefully for signs of teachers on the seventh floor. He let them all leave in threes and fours, watching their tiny dots anxiously to see that they returned safely to their dormitories: the Hufflepuffs to the basement corridor that also led to the kitchens, the Ravenclaws to a tower on the west side of the castle, and the Gryffindors along the corridor to the seventh floor and the Fat Lady's portrait.”

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S.E. Jones - Sep 11, 2004 2:49 pm (#82 of 306)

JKR said the Hufflepuff's common room was more a cellar (as in where you store food) than a dungeon.

JKRowling.com, Fan site page:
Regarding Godric's Hollow: "I am, however, shocked at the number of moderators who want to be sorted into Slytherin... and you should know that the Hufflepuff’s common room isn’t a dungeon, it’s more a cellar - a subtle but important difference."

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Gryphonlord - Sep 11, 2004 4:41 pm (#83 of 306)

I think I'd like to see the Hufflepuff common room. It sounds very Hobbit-like and Shire-ish to me. Like the bar of some cheery country tavern Smile

I wonder if all the common rooms are color-coordinated to their houses? In the movies, we see red for Gryffindor and Green for Slytherin. Is Ravenclaw purple/blue and Hufflepuff yellow, then?

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Choices - Sep 11, 2004 5:08 pm (#84 of 306)

Thanks for setting me straight everyone. I guess I had the Hufflepuffs and the Ravenclaws switched around.

About the graveyard - I had heard about the one they wanted to put in movie 3, but couldn't remember ever reading about one on the grounds in the books and wondered why he wanted to put one in the movie?

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Gryphonlord - Sep 11, 2004 5:43 pm (#85 of 306)

I guess he just wanted it for the dramatic effect. I'm glad, though, 'cause it made J.K.R. pop out more precious info on the next book. The graveyard must be in some remote location of the gorunds where the students don't have to go often. I mean, the grounds must be quite extensive, as is evidenced when Hagrid takes Harry to see the dragons in book Four and they fall out of sight of the castle, and yet are still on the borders of the Forest; that area must be part of the grounds, or the stadium for the kids would not have been set up there. (boy can I ramble ceaselessly! Hope no one minds) But what is buried in the graveyard? Should we start another discussion thread for that? . . .

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Phoenix song - Sep 11, 2004 10:21 pm (#86 of 306)
Edited Sep 11, 2004 11:31 pm

I've found the quote from the director describing the discussion that he had with JKR about the graveyard.

Alfonso: “The amazing thing with JK as a collaborator is she doesn't stop you doing anything. The way she approaches it has nothing to do with 'I like' or 'I dislike' it's 'this makes sense' or 'it doesn't make sense in this universe.'

I give you an example: There's a scene where Malfoy wants to see Buckbeak being executed. It's where Hermione punches him. And there's a sundial. We thought we need something there. I said 'Let's put a graveyard there'.

She says: 'No, you can't have a graveyard there'. And I'm like, 'Why?' She says: 'Oh because the graveyard is near this other wing of the castle and it's going to play an important part in number six because such and such and such.'

Barbie

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mike miller - Sep 13, 2004 8:22 am (#87 of 306)

I wonder if we can take Alfonzo's quote as being accurate?

What role could a graveyard at Hogwarts play in HBP?

Are Lily and James buried at Hogwarts?

Is Godric Gryffindor or any of the other "Founders" buried there?

So many questions and no answers, Accio HBP!!!!!

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Choices - Sep 13, 2004 5:52 pm (#88 of 306)

I think I must be the cat that curiosity killed - I hate not knowing things. So many unanswered questions!! What a day it will be when we can breathe a big sigh of relief and feel we "know all the answers" to our HP questions. Ahhhhh.....!!!

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Sir Tornado - Sep 14, 2004 2:43 am (#89 of 306)

Probably when Book 7's published.

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Gryphonlord - Sep 14, 2004 3:08 pm (#90 of 306)

Actually, even after that we probably won't have all the information we want. Rowling said she was planning to publish a Harry Potter Encyclopedia, which will reveal a great deal more information that could not be revealed in the books, due to the line the plot is taking. I hope we never know *all* the answers; it'll be more fun to debate and discuss them for months on end like we do for Tolkienion questions; although, it will be nice to know that there is a final answer instead of just conjecturing.

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Gryphonlord - Sep 14, 2004 4:40 pm (#91 of 306)

You know, I'm sad that the thread about the mysterious room mentioned in Book 4 disappeared. It was all about the room J.K. Rowling said Harry hears about in the book and later finds out to be important. You guys know what I'm talking about? Anyway, they were conjecturing about what room J.K. was talking about and that was before the Fifth book came out. Well, it was pretty obvious the room was the Room of Requirement. And now I've forgotten where I was going with this. Speculate away.

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schoff - Sep 14, 2004 5:22 pm (#92 of 306)

Gryphonlord: It was archived.

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Gryphonlord - Sep 15, 2004 11:47 am (#93 of 306)

Thanks, Schoff. I wish it wasn't archived though; I have a comment to make on it. Oh, well. I did state it above, so now I'm good! haha

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Gryphonlord - Sep 15, 2004 1:02 pm (#94 of 306)

I have a question for you guys: How did you picture the Great Hall when you read the books? I always imagined it like the one in the movie, 1) because I read the books after seeing SS, and 2) because it fits the descriptions so well. So, I pictured a larger version of that (It has to hold 1000 students, so it's roughly 260 feet by 70, give or take some), but attached to the right-hand wall of the Entrance Hall; i.e., with windows along both long walls. But, according to recent evidence, and Steve Vander Ark's plan of the ground-floor, it is parallel to the Entrance Hall. I was disappointed when I figured this out and I thought it was better the way the movies did it. What do you people think?

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haymoni - Sep 15, 2004 2:46 pm (#95 of 306)

It is so hard to remember what I thought when I first read SS.

Hubby and Ungrateful Son saw the movie in the theater and I did not see it until we brought it home on video.

I seem to recall thinking that the kids would be standing facing the tables (facing the other way) while they waited to be sorted, but I can't remember where I thought the Great Hall was. I know the kids were led into a room where the ghosts make their first appearances and THEN they are taken to the Great Hall, which is different from the movie. But what the spacial relationship is from where the boats land to where the room is where they waited to where the Great Hall is has gotten lost.

Twist my arm...one more reason to re-read SS.

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rambkowalczyk - Sep 22, 2004 2:53 pm (#96 of 306)
Edited Sep 22, 2004 3:55 pm

I have been trying to make a map of Hogwarts based on stuff in the books. One major thing has me puzzled and I would appreciate other people's impressions. In book 1, the first years take the boats to Hogwarts. They approach this huge cliff. The castle is on top of it. There is a tunnel in the cliff and if we can believe Harry's impressions they sail under the castle to an underground harbor. They then climb up a passage in the rocks and eventually come out by the stone steps.

In book 4 Harry and Hermione walk around the lake three times while trying to figure out how to get past a dragon.

How is this done? Doesn't it seem as if the castle were perched high on a cliff that perhaps one side of the castle is somewhat inaccessible because it's just a cliff that goes down into the lake?

It would also mean that one side of the lake doesn't have a shore unless Harry and Hermione walked into this underground cavern.

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schoff - Sep 22, 2004 10:56 pm (#97 of 306)

Is it possible there are two lakes?

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mike miller - Sep 23, 2004 6:58 am (#98 of 306)

I think the castle is on a point or small peninsula. One side faces the lake with the other side facing an open area where the Quidditch field is and then the Dark Forest. The trio could have cut across the entry area to the castle and picked up the lake again on the other side.

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Gryphonlord - Sep 23, 2004 12:46 pm (#99 of 306)
Edited Sep 23, 2004 1:47 pm

I agree with Mike Miller on this. I always pictured the castle as being perched on a steep hill sort of thing with cliffs stretching down toward the lake. On the other sides, it is just sloping into the extensive lawns and grounds. Steve of the Lexicon provided a wonderful picture of this on the following link: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] So, it would be possible to walk all the way around the lake if you cut across the area in front of the castle. Hope that answered your question. Oh, and, Rambkowalczyk, I suggest you don't quit your day job on the Hogwarts map thing. Unless you’re trying to do what I want to do, (which is map a castle as similar to Hogwarts as possible without the changing rooms, but just in solid spots), then you should probably give up *because* of the changing rooms. Even Rowling herself never tried it, after all. But, by all means continue if what you had in mind is what I suggested, because I'd love to see it when you're done. Smile

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rambkowalczyk - Sep 24, 2004 10:40 am (#100 of 306)
Edited Sep 24, 2004 11:41 am

Mike Miller, Gryphonlord:

English may be my first language but I'm a little confused at what you are trying to say. Bear with me. When you say cut across in front of the castle, are you implying that they are walking on the stone cliff which has to be higher than the other three sides of the lake (because the boats actually go under the cliff to get to the underground harbor.) That was my solution to the problem.

Looking at the Hogwarts map, I would say that the part of the lake that touches the cliff should not have a boundary. There should be an open space to show that the lake goes under the cliff.

Gryphonlord, It may not be possible to map the inside of the castle, but it should be possible to give the relative location of everything. That is Moaning Myrtle's bathroom seems to be on the second floor. Lockhart's office (as well as Lupin,Moody and Umbridge's office) is on the third floor not that far away from Myrtle's bathroom.

My original goal was to provide a map of Hogwart's grounds with canon reference (much like the way Lexicon did the main floor of Hogwarts). The map that is there now isn't all that accurate.

For starters the Forbidden Forest is West, although I am not 100% certain that the stone steps face west. You can see the setting sun over the Forbidden Forest from the steps but this is also possible if the steps were facing South or South West.

The greenhouse is behind the castle so I take it to mean it is east to north east of the castle.

The Quidditch field is on the opposite side of the forbidden forest. If you put the forbidden forest towards the north west a first guess would be that the Quidditch field would be south west. That would explain the clue in chap 16 book one. This is right after The Gryffindor/Hufflepuff match where Harry sees Snape going to the Forbidden forest to confront Quirrel.

It says Harry looked up at Hogwarts with its windows glowing red in the setting sun. It is possible that the Quidditch field is West of the castle but it also could be south west as well. When Harry decides to follow Snape on his broom he flies over the castle. This line makes more sense if the Quidditch field were south west of the castle.

Also in book four when fake Moody takes Harry from the maze, they go past the lake and the Durmstrang ship. Here it makes more sense if the maze/Quidditch is south west.

Hogsmeade would be east to southeast. Once I get the knack of posting images, I'll try to show you what I mean.

Lady Arabella Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:01 pm

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Gryphonlord - Sep 24, 2004 11:55 am (#101 of 306)

rambkowalczyk: You're a smart cookie! I give you laud. You are right, though. The facts you stated above are canon, wand while confusing (through no fault of your own), perfectly accurate.

In case you never read any of my other posts, I worked diligently to document ever description of the castle and its grounds as would benefit a map-maker. Sorry to say, I have no way of posting these online unless someone gives me permission to use their website and then instructions on how to do so. The point is, I recognize and acknowledge the truth of what you said. Anyway, sorry to say it, but Steve didn't do much of a job on that map, and I was disappointed when I first compared it to the text.

Yes, I was implying that Harry and Hermione cut across the cliff facing the lake which is also the area of lawn (big enough to include a drive and the steps, see Book 4, arrival of Beauxbatons, and Book 5, arrival at Hogwarts in September) where the castle steps descend into. So, I got my point across to you.

I wish I could agree with you on being able to place the possible location of everything. If you look carefully, you will see that the DADA Prof.'s office moves about through 2 or 3 floors, and so do the other offices and classrooms. This is greatly distressing to my architect's mind, but there it is!

Now, correct me if I err, but I always thought the Q Pitch to be south- southwest of the castle, in order to be able to see setting sun on the windows and because it is passed on the right when Harry goes to Hogsmeade with Cho in book 5. That would slightly protrude on the lake, but no one said geographical features were regular. And we know the lake is south of the castle by Book 3, when HRH go to Divination for the first time.

What confuses me is where are the greenhouses, vegetable gardens and Whomping Willowin relation to the castle and each other? We know that the willow is west of the castle, because Harry's dorm window faces it and Hagrid's hut, which is west of the castle, placing the Tower westward facing as well. Loom at books three and two, when Harry and Hermione use the time turner and when Harry and Ron fly over the grounds into the Whomping Willow, and see what I mean. Please offer your opinions on this and keep up the work on the map of the grounds!

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rambkowalczyk - Sep 27, 2004 9:12 am (#102 of 306)
Edited Sep 27, 2004 10:15 am

Schoff, I did consider the possibility of two lakes, but throughout the book “lake” is always singular.

Gryphonlord, concerning the Quidditch Field - I really should have said it was more south of the lake than it is southwest of the Castle. Your idea of placing it south-southwest of the castle is definitely better than putting it just southwest. I think we are in agreement here. (I just need to express myself better.)

In book 1 chap 8 it says the greenhouse is behind the castle. (this is the part of the chapter where it describes all of Harry's classes in a general way.) In book 2 chap 5, reread the section of Ron about to crash into the castle in his father's car.

First of all it, gives supporting evidence that the castle is south. It's the first landmark they fly over having come from London.

To avoid crashing into the castle Ron turns the wheel (unfortunately it doesn't say which direction. He misses the castle. the car turned in a great arc, soaring over the dark greenhouses, then the vegetable patch, and then out over the black lawns then the car hits the Whomping Willow.

The easiest interpretation is that the castle has four sides: the lake side (south),greenhouse side (east),vegetable patch side (north) and the lawn side(west).

The following day (COS chap 6), their first class is Herbology. They left the castle together, crossed the vegetable patch and made for the greenhouses. Before they go inside Harry can see the Whomping Willowin the distance.

This would mean that although the (bulk of the) greenhouse is in the back of the castle, the entrance of it could be a tiny bit north so that the Whomping Willow(which we both know to be west of the castle) can be seen. This would have the Whomping Willowsomewhat north west.

Also the Quidditch fields,the lake, Hagrid's hut, the forbidden forest, and Hogsmeade are at a lower elevation than the the castle. The green house and the vegetable patch are probably at the same elevation as the castle.

I'll talk about the inside of the castle separately.

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shepherdess - Sep 27, 2004 11:11 pm (#103 of 306)

Rambkowalczyk, I'm a little confused; can you straighten me out? I thought the castle faces the lake, which you say is on the south side of the castle-making the castle facing south. But you say: "In book 1 chap 8 it says the greenhouse is behind the castle." (which would be the north side), and "greenhouse side (east)" (which would mean the castle faces west). Which direction are you thinking the castle faces?

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rambkowalczyk - Sep 28, 2004 7:42 am (#104 of 306)

When I read the books without analyzing them, I assumed the castle faced west.--that is the front door, the stone steps, faced west. This was mainly because Harry usually visits Hagrid in the afternoon or evening. On the evening when Buckbeak is supposed to be executed, they leave the castle, and see Hagrid's hut which is in front of the forbidden forest. The also see the setting sun over the forbidden forest.

Now that I have analyzed the books, I have 7 possibilities as to where the stone steps could be: In all possibilities the Forbidden Forest is west and the lake is south, and that the lawns are in front of the stone steps.

1 Stone steps are west, Veg patch is north, greenhouse is east. This assumes Ron's car turns right to avoid the castle.

2 Stone steps are south, veg patch is west, but closer to the castle than the forbidden forest. Greenhouse is north. East side of the castle is undefined. This assumes Ron's car turns right.

3 Stone steps are south, veg patch is east, Greenhouse is North. This assumes Ron's car turns left.

4 Stone steps are northwest, veg patch is northeast, greenhouse is southeast. This assumes Ron's car turns right.

5 Stone steps are southwest, veg patch is northwest, greenhouse is northeast. This assumes Ron's car turns right.

6 Stone steps are southeast, veg patch is northeast, greenhouse is northwest. This assumes Ron's car turns left. In order for this possibility to work the castle can't be square shaped, but shaped in such a way that when you are by the stone steps you can see Hagrid's hut and the setting sum with no problem.

7 Stone steps are northeast, veg patch is northwest, and the greenhouse is southwest. This assumes Ron's car turns left. In order for this possibility to work the castle can't be square shaped, but shaped in such a way that when you are by the stone steps you can see Hagrid's hut and the setting sun with no problem.

I consider 1,2,3,and 5 the more likely possibilities. As you can see, Shepherdess, your feeling that it is south is justified but at this point I am not ready to say which possibility is the one and only. I would like to hear of your reasoning that had you put the stone steps south.

My problem is that first impressions are very strong, so for me to rule out the castle facing west needs strong proof. Right now, I'm trying to reconcile the above possibilities with JKR's description in POA of Hermione and Harry trying to save Buckbeak. She put a lot of details in, making me think that she had a definite map inside her head when she wrote this.

I do note that if Hogmeade is east or southeast, it may be very logical to have the doors face south.

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Gryphonlord - Sep 28, 2004 1:08 pm (#105 of 306)

Well, as for me, I firmly believe that the front doors, and the stone steps therefore, face west or into the sunset (I'm not entirely sure which direction that is, since I know it isn't exactly west. Lexicon Steve seems to think it's south-west, so I'll go with that). That can be backed up by the various references to the afternoon sunlight streaming through the front doors, and the fact that they are visible from Hagrid's hut, which has been repeatedly stated to be west of the castle :)However, it is likely that the steps could face south*ward*, but not directly.

By the way, thanks for the paragraph tip, Rambkawolcyzk (you have a very interesting name Smile

I didn't realize it was difficult to read.

Anyway, Shepherdess, I think there is enough evidence to make it pretty clear that the steps face the sunset (determining on where that is, exactly, is really beyond my limited astrological capacities.)

Now, I think the greenhouses must be north-west of the castle, as you said, Rambkawolcyzk. That makes sense, since HRH cut across them, the vegetable patch, and make a wide perimeter around the Whomping Willowwhen, in Book III, they make a dash for the Forbidden Forest under the Time Turner sequence; cf. the following passage:

p. 397 Not wanting to be seen from Hagrid’s Hut’s windows, Harry and Hermione bolt off across the vegetable gardens to the greenhouses, pausing, then setting off again, skirting the Whomping Willowand running into the Forbidden Forest.

This is an excerpt from the notes I made. It can be assumed that they started from the front doors, then, instead of wasting time walking the perimeter of the castle, went off as fast as they could across the grounds west and northwest of the castle. Also:

p. 394 Golden sunlight (late afternoon) streams through the front doors of the Entrance Hall, implying their position facing West or Southwest.

and:

p. 329 The castle’s front steps are visible from Hagrid’s hut’s windows.

Okay, that's it. Keep in mind that these are from the USA edition of PoA. Speculate away, peeps.

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rambkowalczyk - Oct 1, 2004 10:02 am (#106 of 306)

If you are putting the stone steps southwest, remember the greenhouses need to be in back of the castle, meaning they should be northeast of the castle.

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Gryphonlord - Oct 1, 2004 12:07 pm (#107 of 306)

Hmm...that can be debated, I think. There may be no really clear idea of what the "back" of the castle is, so I'm just saying the northern area is the general back area. In my mind's eye, the building is too irregular to have any really back or front, as defined by a door or something. Obviously the front door defines the "front" of the castle, but you get the idea.

Anyway, I just ran across something in GoF. When Harry leaves the Prefects' Bathroom and is on the way toward a set of stairs, he notices that Snape's office is in the bottom left-hand corner of the map. Assuming that the map has North at the top, that would put the office at a south-west position.

Okay, good show. But...

We learn in OotP that Snape's office is beneath the Entrance Hall (please refer to the chapter where Trelawny gets thrown out.), that puts the entrance hall at the south-west position as well. Which means that the steps do indeed face in that direction. I consider these scattered clues as canon (or as close as can be gathered) and shall henceforth act upon them. Yay! I feel smart. j/k

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rambkowalczyk - Oct 1, 2004 6:17 pm (#108 of 306)

Not to be nitpicky, but the dungeons could be down the hall at the bottom of the stairs. I'll have to double check it. Nonetheless good detective work.

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Gryphonlord - Oct 2, 2004 11:09 am (#109 of 306)

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Do you mean that the dungeons (where Potions class is held and Snape's Office is located) are down the stairs to the right of the Marble Staircase and then down a passage? Sorry, now I confused myself!

Anyway, I figure that next to the corridor that leads to Classroom 11 (Book V), there is a staircase that descends into the dungeons; that stair makes an "L" shape so that the bottom opens onto a passage that runs beneath the corridor to Classroom 11. That passage leads to the Potions Department. D'you see what I'm saying?

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rambkowalczyk - Oct 2, 2004 4:59 pm (#110 of 306)

All I meant by the previous post is that Snape's office is not necessarily under the entrance hall. At the time I didn't check the reference yet.

Now that I have OOP, Let me check. Chap26 pg 593-594. American version.

a woman screamed from somewhere outside the room. "Snape's head jerked upward; he was gazing at the ceiling" "Harry could hear a muffled commotion coming from what he thought might be the entrance hall." "Somewhere above them, the woman screamed again."

Actually between this clue and the Marauders map clue, I think we can conclude that the entrance hall is indeed southwest. Very good!

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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 5, 2004 10:38 am (#111 of 306)

I found this statement regarding the Heads of the various houses and the house ghosts.

A Mugglenet/Harry Potter Lexicon Open Letter Question (I can't promise I'll answer them all, but I'll try and work through them). Yes, if the teacher is Head of House you can indeed assume that they were pupils within that house. So Snape was very definitely a Slytherin and yes, the same is true of the house ghosts.

I wonder if the Ghosts were the Heads of the Houses they inhabit at some point in the past?

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Gryphonlord - Oct 8, 2004 12:14 pm (#112 of 306)

um...where did that come from? haha.

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schoff - Oct 8, 2004 12:57 pm (#113 of 306)
Edited Oct 8, 2004 2:00 pm

JKR. It's how we now know for certain Snape was a Slytherin, McGonagall a Gryffindor, Flitwick a Ravenclaw, and Sprout a Hufflepuff.

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rambkowalczyk - Oct 8, 2004 1:33 pm (#114 of 306)

Does this mean that at some point in the future Professor Binns will become a house ghost?

I have always had the feeling the House ghosts had lives separate from Hogwarts and because they refused to die they were recruited to Hogwarts for their wisdom.

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Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 8, 2004 6:13 pm (#115 of 306)

I am sorry I forgot to include the citation documenting where I found the information. I must go iron my hands.

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schoff - Oct 8, 2004 10:22 pm (#116 of 306)

Does this mean that at some point in the future Professor Binns will become a house ghost?

It's probably as likely as Myrtle becoming one.

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chocfrogger1 - Oct 12, 2004 7:52 am (#117 of 306)

WOW!!I just read on The Leaky Cauldron that Alphonso Cauron wanted to do a Hogwarts graveyard scene in POA, but Jo asked him not to, as a graveyard at Hogwarts comes into play later in the series. And the graveyard is IN the castle!! They didn't say near or around the castle, but IN it!! Are James and Lily buried at Hogwarts? Does this mean Aunt Petunia has been to Hogwarts to attend her sister's funeral? This may even be the place where Harry finds out about his family, especially his grandparents. Is there anything unique about a wizarding graveyard? My imagination is going into overdrive!! Maybe wizards aren't even buried after death, as it’s our muggle tradition. Any ideas?

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Gryphonlord - Oct 12, 2004 12:01 pm (#118 of 306)

No, you're mistaken. That's an error in some typo somewhere. JKR clearly stated that it's near another wing of the castle; not In it. Sorry. But TLC also just posted a thing that says that JKR will release the map she drew for the movies relating to the castle and the grounds on the next DVD. I can't wait. Can you guys imagine how many mysteries about the grounds that will explain? I'm so psyched.

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legolas - Oct 12, 2004 1:12 pm (#119 of 306)

This is just a small question in relation to the Graveyard. How have none of the kids come across it? I would have thought that somebody would have found it by now. Especially the Weasley twins. I could have seen the Weasley twins wandering and finding the graveyard. I am sure they would have told harry if they found any of his families gravestones.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 12, 2004 1:42 pm (#120 of 306)

Legolas - This is just a small question in relation to the the Graveyard. How have none of the kids come across it?

Because it hasn't been important to the story so far.

For example, if we were to go strictly by what we learn from the text, only the prefects take baths.

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shepherdess - Oct 12, 2004 1:53 pm (#121 of 306)

It's even worse than that, if you think about it, legolas. The Marauder's Map covers, not only the castle, but the grounds also. How could the Weasley twins have (and use) the Map for so long, without ever seeing the graveyard on it? And now that Harry has had the Map for three years, why has he never seen the graveyard on it? (Surely, when he's stuck in his room at Privet Drive, he looks longingly at the Map.)

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legolas - Oct 12, 2004 2:05 pm (#122 of 306)
Edited Oct 12, 2004 3:05 pm

It quite an omission to suddenly introduce a graveyard in the books and go, “oops, it was there all along.” If it was in an area that is out of bounds to students, then I could believe it more.

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 12, 2004 2:16 pm (#123 of 306) Reply
Edited by Oct 12, 2004 3:17 pm

legolas - It quite an omission to suddenly introduce a graveyard in the books and go, “oops, it was there all along.”

Not if it is common knowledge. It would only be "quite an omission" if Rowling writes something like this:

Hermione whispered, "Meet me at the entrance to Hogwart's graveyard"

“What graveyard?” Harry whispered back. "Hogwarts doesn't have a graveyard."

That would be on par with fifth year Gryffindor boys not knowing about the boy-trap on the girls' dorm stairs.

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Detail Seeker - Oct 12, 2004 2:18 pm (#124 of 306)

First thing, what the omission of the graveyard up to now tells me, is that the Potters are not buried there. Fred & George, being they were roaming the castle more untargeted as Harry, will have visited it and not found the Potter´s graves - otherwise they would have told Harry. At least after knowing Harry. So, if they found it in their first two years, this theory might not work.

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legolas - Oct 12, 2004 2:20 pm (#125 of 306)

Alternatively they might not have been interested in reading gravestones.

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DJ Evans - Oct 12, 2004 6:10 pm (#126 of 306)

I just had a thought about the graveyard. I believe Hogwarts is unplottable, right? But could it not also be under the Fidelius Charm? With Prof. McGonagall being the secret keeper, since she is the one who writes a letter to each new student inviting them to come to Hogwarts or Hagrid even. For it is a ritual for all new students to arrive by boat with Hagrid in the lead showing the way. Anyway, I can very well see the graveyard being the same as Hogwarts, unplottable and under a Fidelius Charm. Wouldn't that make sense as to why no one seems (as far as we know) to have seen a graveyard all those years?

Just a quick thought. If that has been mentioned before, please excuse!!

Later, Deb

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Madame Librarian - Oct 12, 2004 7:27 pm (#127 of 306)

Another possibility is that, yes, the graveyard is there, has always been there, is occasionally noticed by the kids, but simply taken as yet another standard feature of the grounds around Hogwarts. It has not played a part in the plot yet, so nobody mentions it or thinks much about it. Much like anyplace that has a graveyard near it. Unless you actually attend a burial or wish to play stupid pranks it's just something near where you live.

The other idea I had is that it's there, but clouded or obscured purposely to keep the kids away from it. I suppose that would be similar to Deb's theory above.

Ciao. Barb

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Prefect Marcus - Oct 12, 2004 9:04 pm (#128 of 306)

The reason the graveyard has never been mentioned is that things are really dead there.

*ahem*

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legolas - Oct 13, 2004 11:55 am (#129 of 306)

You might think this as a bit freaky/morbid but I was on a sponsored walk and we had to go through a graveyard. I did check out some of the inscriptions near the path. I was looking at names and so many of the people were related. It also showed a trend away from old fashioned names.

Could the graveyard contain the gravestones of the heirs of Gryfindor or one of the other schools founders?

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rambkowalczyk - Oct 13, 2004 12:54 pm (#130 of 306)

The graveyard may be in a part of Hogwarts that students rarely travel to. For instance it probably isn't going to be seen as the students go to Quidditch or to the lake or to the Forbidden Forest. This rules out west and southwest of Hogwarts. It could be behind the herbology greenhouses because no one seems to wander around the greenhouses so therefore no one has to notice that there is a graveyard.

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haymoni - Oct 14, 2004 3:13 am (#131 of 306)

I seem to recall in "Little Lord Fauntleroy" that his ancestors were buried inside the church.

I suppose that it is possible the same was done with the Founders.

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chocfrogger1 - Oct 14, 2004 6:29 am (#132 of 306)

Haymoni, your post jogged my memory of another movie graveyard, the one in the nuns' abbey in the movie "The Sound of Music". It was an old European building, and the graveyard was in kind of a sheltered grotto attached to the building. Access to the Hogwarts graveyard may be similar to entering the kitchens (tickling the pear in the painting on the wall). If someone didn't tell you the exact thing to do to access the area, you might walk by it daily and never know it.

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Gryphonlord - Oct 14, 2004 12:23 pm (#133 of 306)

That is a really cool thought, chocfrogger1. After all, J.K. said it was near a wing of the castle, so it could be attached to it on a stone terrace or something. It could be below the east wing - we never hear of anyone going near that wing of the castle, as no important features of the grounds are near it. The Stadium is to the south, as is the lake, the greenhouses to the north, roughly, and Hagrid's Hut opposite the front doors. Anyway, we'll know in a month or so, when the DVD is released. TLC said that somebody would be showing the map Rowling drew for the grounds and castle's general appearance. So, then a lot of our questions should be answered.

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Professor Dumbledore - Oct 19, 2004 5:35 pm (#134 of 306)

Graveyard? Sorry I don't know what you guys are talking about, I haven't been following. But I did have a question relating to the map at the bottom of this page: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] What do the words say? It looks like 'the lake' has a proper name on it. And what are the other little inscriptions of?

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Madame Librarian - Oct 19, 2004 7:13 pm (#135 of 306)
Edited Oct 19, 2004 8:14 pm

Looks like it starts with a "B." Did anyone see the magazine referred to? Maybe they have a better print in the archive. Maybe somebody who posts here actually purchased a copy.

Ciao. Barb

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The giant squid - Oct 20, 2004 2:11 am (#136 of 306)

The shape of the letters suggest the words "Black Lake". Maybe Sirius' family donated it to the school?

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Professor Dumbledore - Oct 20, 2004 10:59 am (#137 of 306)

Really? I was the first to notice this? There are other things that can't be right with the map also. It says that Harry and Ron's dorm is way in the back of the picture. It's not in the tower though.

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HR]Gryphonlord - Oct 20, 2004 2:35 pm (#138 of 306)
Edited Oct 20, 2004 3:39 pm

Professor Dumbledore:

I think it's just a reference to the quality of the lake, which is often referred to as being "black", and yes it is Black that is written there. The other words are as follows: "Boathouse","Great Hall" (the building on the far left), "Marble staircase..." (some stuff that is illegible; pointing to the large tower on the left), "Professor Dumbledore's Office" (at the top of the tower), "Corridor to Gryffindor Common Room" (pointing to the corridor in the square building behind the great tower) , "Harry and the Gryffindor Boys' Dormitory","Flying Lessons", "Quidditch Stadium", "Whomping Willow","Dark Forest", and "Hagrid's Hut", which is in its original location before the change occurring in the Third movie.

We also know from the first and second movies that the McGonagall's office is in that large, semi-circular Scottish looking tower almost in the center of the picture, and looking out on the Flying Lesson lawns. Her classroom is nearby in that low apse-ended building nearby, off the Durham cathedral cloister.

The line : "Mr Bramman was never shown the original map drawn for Stuart Craig by Rowling, so he can't say whether this arrangement for the castle comes from that map...I have never seen Rowling’s map. I suppose the designer would have incorporated all the main elements and locations." makes me feel better about the inconsistency of the castle in the movie with that in the books. Now at least, I can assume that they did from almost entirely their imaginations rather than basing it on the author's original descriptions.

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Gryphonlord - Oct 20, 2004 2:38 pm (#139 of 306)

One more thing (sorry for the rambling), the thing about Harry and the Boys' dorm does point to the tower, but only to its conical roof. When you watch the first movie, the scene right before when Harry Hermione and Ron are discussing Voldemort's return, there is a zoom on the castle which shows the tower in question. It is there that the Dorm is located.

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Professor Dumbledore - Oct 20, 2004 5:07 pm (#140 of 306)

Thanks for clearing that up. You can continue your discussion on the graveyard now.

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Grimber - Oct 21, 2004 10:19 am (#141 of 306)

I also find that that painting and the movies are too misleading vs what’s in the books. In fact, the only things I like about the movies for rooms, are how they were constructed for look/feel, not the overall layout. The movies even got Hagrid’s hut as made of stone with a wood roof while in the books, it’s an all wood hut. My hope is to come up with a better map of Hogwarts and the surrounding area and build a 3D walk through for people to wander around Hogwarts. I've already broke down the first 2 books and reading this thread helps point out things I might miss ( but so far I haven't seen anything here i missed of the first 2 books).

I'll post my work in progress maps to one of my web sites and link it here for people to look at and give advise/comments and point out things I may miss.

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Grimber - Oct 21, 2004 12:13 pm (#142 of 306)

OK here is a sketch I did of the Hogwarts surrounding area, based on just SS/PS text. Ignore what I actually drew IN the school itself, I just placed a few things for thought references. I have a better one I’m working on for the school itself. I was more concerned with the grounds and surrounding area in this first picture.

I did it in pencil so you may get some blurry writing annotations.

Hopefully by time I get through CoS and PoA notes, I’ll have a better outdoor one made and a fair indoors map.

Couple notes from SS/PS Cannot reach main 1st year classrooms ( like 3rd floor) from Gryffindor Tower unless you go to the entrance hall first. Also cannot reach the Owlery from the main class buildings except by going through the entrance hall as well. ( the owlery I have definitely wrong on this map)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Gryphonlord - Oct 22, 2004 4:17 pm (#143 of 306)

Grimber, your maps are really good. Although, as you said, the castle is very inaccurate, but then you don't have the notes to the other texts. However, if you want my notes, I'd be happy to email them to you. They're very extensive and I can guarantee they cover every angle and quote in the books that could possibly be of any use in planning the castle. Anyway, let me know if you want them and we'll work something out. My email is [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] . Keep up the good work.

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Grimber - Oct 22, 2004 10:36 pm (#144 of 306)

sure I would take any notes available that reference Hogwarts. Might do Hogsmeade and Diagon Ally as well if I get motivated enough :p. Working through CoS, I’m sure the castle is on the north side of the lake.

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Gryphonlord - Oct 23, 2004 11:31 am (#145 of 306)

You’re right, it is. Anyway, I'll send you the notes if I can.

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Gryphonlord - Oct 24, 2004 12:13 pm (#146 of 306)

I thought of something recently at the dinner table.

Thinking about the lake near Hogwarts castle, I wondered about its width and so on.

In the fourth book, we learn that the half-point of the lake is a quarter-mile to the castle, so the castle is half a mile from the southern banks of the lake. However, there is a beech tree near the border of the lake, that is also directly beneath Gryffindor Tower (somewhere in Book five, I don't have the reference handy); I personally think the tower to be some distance north from the entrance hall and juts out in a wing of its own westward, because Hagrid's hut and the forest are both visible form the tower windows.

So, why should the lake just be round as most seem to think? I think it'd be neat if the lake was long and irregular like most lakes in Scotland, and that, like in the movie, the castle is just situated on an outcrop of mountain on the north-east side, half a mile from the southern banks.

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Professor Dumbledore - Oct 24, 2004 5:24 pm (#147 of 306)

Yes-here is my version of Hogwarts. As you can see, it kind of works out with the Hogwarts from the first two movies, except that the great hall is to the left instead of right off of the Entrance Hall.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Professor Dumbledore - Oct 25, 2004 7:16 am (#148 of 306)

Sorry, I forgot to label the Winged Boars on the sides of the front entrance, and the lines in the lower right of the picture represent the road to Hogsmeade

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Gryphonlord - Nov 1, 2004 1:27 pm (#149 of 306)

Professor Dumbledore (sir Smile

), I found some flaws in your design. Unless you were trying to recreate the castle in the movies and blend it with the castle in the books. But, the beech tree needs to be below Gryffindor tower; Hagrid's hut must be visible from said tower, which is north of the Great Hall and on the west side of the castle. The great Hall is to the right of the Entrance Hall, the willow is north-west of the castle, the quidditch pitch is to the south. I don't want to sound rude, though, so please don't get that idea. But I think you must have been aiming for the movie, as you kind of hinted in your posts, in which case it's pretty accurate.

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Professor Dumbledore - Nov 1, 2004 6:24 pm (#150 of 306)

Well it was kind of a mix. The Gryffindor tower is so tall that you are probably able to see a lot of the grounds. (7 floors up ) The entrance hall is a problem though, the movie is totally wrong when it comes to that.

Lady Arabella Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:05 pm

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El Cronista de Salem - Nov 21, 2004 3:24 am (#151 of 306)

Hello,

Jo did a drawing of Hogwarts and environs for the first film. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

It appear in the POA DVD.

I have re-drawn the drawing, following the same notes. If anybody could read the difficult notes, please, post: - The note of the down. - The note between the boats and the station.

It is my drawing: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Grimber - Nov 21, 2004 6:07 pm (#152 of 306)

the sketches make a lot of sense for layout now, I never imagined the walls extended out so far though to include the forbidden forest as well.

must mean hogsmead and the forbidden forest butt right up against the mountains to the north ( which makes some sense with how Sirius hid in the mnts cave outside of hogsmeade before.)

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Ydnam96 - Nov 21, 2004 6:14 pm (#153 of 306)

When I click on the links in your post El Cronista it just takes me to the veritaserum website, but not to any specific map. I tried to find them, but I'm not having any luck. Am I missing something?

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Ydnam96 - Nov 21, 2004 7:04 pm (#154 of 306)

Never mind, I found the maps. Silly me...

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Mare - Nov 23, 2004 5:28 am (#155 of 306)

I can't find them either Ydnam... But I have seen a blurb somewhere else. Is it true that Hogwarts and the lake are drawn between Hogsmeade and Hogsmeade station, that just doesn't make sense, does it?

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Grimber - Nov 23, 2004 6:33 am (#156 of 306)

Mare' just right click and 'save target' the links to get the images. His web site host must not like external links to files.

I'll put the first one here for you that he had linked in the above post.

the train station is along the South East side of the lake where it's cut off in teh picture ( right below where it says 'Boats on the map)

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Mare - Nov 23, 2004 6:51 am (#157 of 306)

Thanks a lot for the image!

Yes train station down right, Hogsmeade top left.

Does that make sense? I mean that doesn't sound like the book description at all! Yes the road goes along in the direction of Hogsmeade, but still the Hogwarts grounds are huge! the station is quite a distance away from the village.

PS Jo! That’s not a squid, that’s an octopus!!!

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El Cronista de Salem - Nov 23, 2004 7:54 am (#158 of 306)

Marè, you are right with the octopus. ;-) It proves that she did it in only 2 minutes!

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rambkowalczyk - Nov 23, 2004 3:22 pm (#159 of 306)

Grimber, I tried the right click and save target but the picture that was saved was extremely poor. There is no button to "press to refresh quality." any ideas?

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Grimber - Nov 23, 2004 7:08 pm (#160 of 306)

hang out for a day. I got my DVD today will clip a shot of the map from it myself, since I can use it as a reference for my building a Hogwarts map. I’m working towards a 2D map first, later translate it over to a 3D walk through ( rather like a 3rd person game)

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Hollywand - Nov 27, 2004 8:09 am (#161 of 306)

Apologies for digressing from the map discussion. It would seem that the graveyard at Hogwarts might need to be protected with special charms since Voldemort makes use of his father's bones to reincarnate himself. I can only imagine what one might do with the bones of a powerful wizard.

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MzWhizz123 - Nov 27, 2004 9:26 am (#162 of 306)

Ohhhhhh! Interesting observation, Hollywand! If LV could re-animate himself with his own father's bones, I would hate to think what might be possible with those of Grindewald! ::Hair on the back of neck goes up::

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rambkowalczyk - Dec 22, 2004 7:56 am (#163 of 306)

I finally figured out how to get the maps clearer.

El Cronista de Salem.(from post 151) I think the writing to the left of the castle says lawn slopes down lake (undecipherable).

Grimber in your map (post 142), you don't really have the Forbidden Forest to the west. If you have the lake to the south, your forest seems to be northeast. Also you have the Quidditch on the west. I think it should be east. If you mirror-imaged it, the map would be more accurate. I like the detail you gave to the castle. Do you have the greenhouses inside the castle walls?

Back to the maps that were taken from POA. Did anyone notice that the Forbidden Forest is drawn EAST of the castle? Another case where a mirror would be handy. The other thing I question is the location of the greenhouses and the vegetable patch. In both books 2 and 3 when the students leave the castle to go to herbology they cross the vegetable patch first before reaching the greenhouses.

Consider this passage from COS where Ron is approaching the castle in the car. Harry found himself gripping the edges of the seat very hard as they flew towards the lake. ...Harry saw the smooth black glassy surface of the water... They were over the lake--the castle was right ahead...They were falling gathering speed, heading straight for the solid castle wall... Ron... swinging the steering wheel around; they missed the dark stone wall by inches as the car turned in a great arc, soaring over the dark greenhouses, then the vegetable patch, and then out over the black lawns, losing altitude all the time.

then they crash into the Whomping Willow.

They are coming in from the south over the lake. They go on one side of the castle (probably east) which means the greenhouse and the vegetable patch is on the east side. As they are turning the car approaches the front of the castle where the lawns are, before crashing into the willow. I don't think the POA map accounts for this because the greenhouse and the Whomping Willow are on the same side of the castle.

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Magical Me - Jan 2, 2005 2:58 am (#164 of 306)

The school motto, from memory, is Draconis Nun Quam Titillandus. I have only ever seen this translated as "Never tickle a sleeping dragon." That was the translation I first came up with myself, as well.

But what about alternative translations? One that occurred to me soon after and that I rather like, is "Let sleeping serpents lie." It's less of a literal instruction ("School Rule 12. As dictated by the school motto, students are not to tickle a dragon whilst it is asleep.") and a bit more of a sort of moral recommendation ("Students, please try to be the sort of person who doesn't go around stirring up old troubles. It will only lead to trouble for you in the end.")

(I must admit, part of the reason I like it is that it's got two incidents of assonance in it, so it rolls off the tongue nicely ;-)

This led me into some cogitation regarding our three heroes. They do almost nothing BUT stir up trouble. And what's the oldest trouble of all that's referred to in our beloved septet of novels (to-date)? The trouble that dates back to soon after the founding of the school. The trouble that leads to such divisiveness in the wizarding world, that led Slytherin to create the Chamber of Secrets (which I think ties into the motto), and that gives Voldemort so much of his capacity for wreaking havoc. I refer to wizards' prejudicial preoccupation with seeing people as "different", simply because they are part-human, part-Muggle, full-Muggle, pureblood, Goblinoid, 20 feet tall, etc. Also, the preference most wizards have for maintaining this prejudicial state of affairs as the status quo, rather than investing the effort and risk required to produce a more egalitarian State. (Think of Mr Weasley admonishing Hermione in GF -- "I agree with you, but now is not the time for an argument about elf rights." or whatever exactly he says.)

It is a striking characteristic of Dumbledore that he NEVER thinks these sort of thoughts -- he accepts everyone and does not rush to judge them even AFTER they have made terrible errors (such as becoming a Death Eater). It is a failing of every other character that I can think of off-hand, EXCEPT Harry. Harry, perhaps because of his upbringing, has the humility to not judge on face-value (not even Malfoy or Snape -- read their early meetings with Harry in PS).

Think of the symbolism of Dumbledore destroying the Fountain of Magical Brethren. The old lies and preconceptions have to be swept away, before Harry can overcome Voldemort's power to spread discord. Harry will accomplish this by vanquishing Voldemort with his trusty "love ray" (Anyone remember the Care Bears cartoon?). The lesson behind the theme is that society as a whole has to overcome the intolerance bred by prejudice, if it is to avoid bringing disaster upon itself. Good and evil co-exists within us all, as does the capacity for us to choose which sort of person we will be. So too does the capacity for us to decide whether we will be the sort of person to promote intolerance, accept intolerance, or combat intolerance.

I think that, as the school motto, there really has to be a fair degree of thematic significance behind the translation. I also think that as a motto, it would not just translate literally.

Those are my thoughts so far as they've developed to-date -- anyone got any other ideas?

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Ydnam96 - Jan 2, 2005 8:17 am (#165 of 306)

Haha, yes the Care Bear Stare (is that how you spell that?). I could just see Tender Hear Bear, Funshine Bear, Cheer Bear, and Friend Bear staring down Voldemort. LOL

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Jan 2, 2005 4:03 pm (#166 of 306)

With Professor Snape being Grumpy Bear?

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Ydnam96 - Jan 2, 2005 8:28 pm (#167 of 306)

Yes! Perfect. Sir Snape Grumpy Bear. (complete with the little plastic heart on his right hip!) haha

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Magical Me - Jan 6, 2005 3:06 am (#168 of 306)

Okay, I'm sure you've all picked up on this but just for the record I shall correct my above entry:

Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus

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Fred Cringe - Jan 30, 2005 8:38 am (#169 of 306)

What I've always wondered is:

What happens to children who either refuse or are forbidden by their parents to attend Hogwarts? Do they retain an element of emotional magic all their lives? How does the wizarding world feel about them? Are they regarded as little better than squibs for example?

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The giant squid - Jan 31, 2005 1:51 am (#170 of 306)

Fred Cringe, I think this would be where the Prevention of Muggle Contamination department comes in (c'mon, you know there's got to be one)...a few well-placed Obliviate!s and the former wizard-to-be lives on none the wiser.

Admittedly, I haven't got fact one to back that up. it just feels to me to be the sort of thing Fudge's MoM would do...

--Mike

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Fred Cringe - Jan 31, 2005 3:21 am (#171 of 306)

See? This is the kind of stuff that fascinates me about the backstory to Harry Potter. Imagining how the 'day-to-day' WW actually works. It's the main reason I signed up/paid up to this site when I saw that these issues were being discussed here.

Back to the MoM though, maybe it's just me but.... it feels a bit totalitarian to me. Any institution that comes close to implementing laws that classes muggles little better than beasts has a lot of darkness in its heart.

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potterfan8 - Feb 7, 2005 7:46 am (#172 of 306)

hi- I am new to the forum and just started posting- but yes- I think that JKR will give us a good slythern- Malfoy. I think he is going to turn.

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Solitaire - Feb 7, 2005 10:47 am (#173 of 306)

I'm curious, potterfan. Why do you think Malfoy will do a 180? I'm not trying to be picky; I would just like to hear your train of thought on this one. Draco seems pretty well mired in his "pure-bloods are superior" mentality, and I can't think of anything that indicates a change of heart is possible for him.

Solitaire

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Denise P. - Feb 7, 2005 9:04 pm (#174 of 306)

But...before you answer potterfan8, you may want to take that discussion to the Draco Malfoy thread

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S.E. Jones - Mar 31, 2005 3:29 pm (#175 of 306)

Okay, for anyone who has their PoA DVD at hand:

I've been looking at the map of Hogwarts JKR drew for the production designers (mentioned in the interview with JKR on the PoA DVD) and re-drawing it; however, there are a few spots here and there where I can't read what is written. Can anyone figure out what the five '?'s on this map are based on their DVD?

P.S. I'm posting this here versus the movie thread because it deals with a canon drawing of the grounds....

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Ff3girl - Mar 31, 2005 7:11 pm (#176 of 306)

Hm. Good question.

Is it possible that the question marks are just to indicate the unknown/hidden location of the castle? I don't know. That's my guess.

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S.E. Jones - Apr 1, 2005 1:11 am (#177 of 306)

I put the question marks in myself because I couldn't read what was written on the actual map shown on the DVD.

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frogface - Apr 2, 2005 3:26 am (#178 of 306)

I'm pretty sure that I heard something about a graveyard in Hogwarts somewhere. I think it was that they wanted to use it in the movie version of PoA but JKR said no because it is going to feature later in the series. I don't think I saw it in your map, maybe one of the question marks is the graveyard. Sorry I can't be of more help!

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Liz Mann - Apr 2, 2005 9:45 am (#179 of 306)

Sorry, I looked on the DVD and I can't read those bits either.

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DJ Evans - Apr 2, 2005 11:27 am (#180 of 306)

Sarah, I don't know if this will help you or not, but I did a quick look and the only one that I could make out is the second question mark from the left (the one that is in a grayish area). From what I could make out or I should say what it looks likes to me: **something** slopes down & lake **something**. I know that isn't much, but it was all I could make out, maybe someone else can view it and see what the first and last words are?

Sorry, but I gave it a shot!!

Later, Deb

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ruthlesspenguin - Apr 2, 2005 11:38 pm (#181 of 306)

Sarah, I have been looking at your map and the DVD and this is what I get

Horizontal row of question marks

Mark 1 Hogwarts *Something*. I would guess something like wall would make sense, but I can't read it.

Mark 2 Lawn (?) slopes down to Lake *Something*. The *something* appears to be in brackets, so it could be Loch as she has labeled the lake by both name below and it looks about the right length. The line above the first word that makes the first letter look like a T, is actually, I think, an arrow pointing towards the lake.

Mark 3 Green Houses(?). This is a bit of the guess, based on them not being labelled elsewhere, however if you look at them upside down the words do look the correct shape. There also appears to be a plus sign at the bottom (if you are looking at it upside down), which could indicate that this and mark 4 are part of the same annotation.

Mark 4 Vegetable Patch. Also written upside down.

Mark at bottom of Map Road travels round castle *a few somethings* Hogsmeade (?) ends at school gate.

I might try again after my vision has returned to normal, but I am not too hopeful of being able to make out anything else.

<(') (edited)

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S.E. Jones - Apr 3, 2005 11:35 pm (#182 of 306)

Thanks a lot everyone!! Can anyone get a better view of what the far most left and bottom marks are supposed to be?

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rambkowalczyk - Apr 4, 2005 6:29 pm (#183 of 306)

I agree with ruthlesspenguin's assessment.

Earlier in this thread around Dec there were links to these pictures and they are unreadable. The most I can conclude is that it consists of 8 words inside the road and two words outside the road.

Back on post 163 I pointed out that the Forbidden Forest should be to the west of the castle. I also provided arguments that the greenhouses and the vegetable patch should be on the other side of the castle (with respect to the Forbidden Forest).

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S.E. Jones - Apr 4, 2005 6:38 pm (#184 of 306)
Edited Apr 4, 2005 7:51 pm

That doesn't make much sense as Harry and Hermione had to sneak around to the Green Houses and then into the Forbidden Forest in PoA. Therefore they would have to be on the same side, as JKR's map shows.

As for the part you cited from CoS, it could also fit with JKR's map as they cross the lake (south of the castle), cross over the greenhouses and vegetable patch, then there is some lawn and then they hit the willow. This can all fit if Ron veered to the right (east) to miss the castle, crossed the green houses, etc, and then veered more toward the castle as they crossed the lawn and hit the tree.

I am a bit curious about something. This is a map JKR drew and gave to the production team. Why do you think it is incorrect if JKR herself drew it?

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S.E. Jones - Apr 5, 2005 3:05 pm (#185 of 306)
Edited Apr 5, 2005 4:06 pm

Okay, so now the map looks like this. I wonder if the '*' means that they are together in the square.

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rambkowalczyk - Apr 6, 2005 3:03 am (#186 of 306)

Why do you think it is incorrect if JKR herself drew it?

When it first came out I questioned whether she herself did draw it. (I have never rented POA). In the books the Forbidden Forest is in the direction of the setting sun that is west and in the maps, it is drawn east. The simplest explanation is that this is a mirror image.

The other reason I question it is to fine tune my own thinking. Just before the DVD came out I went through all the books trying to construct my own maps. My first guess had the greenhouses and vegetable patch on a separate side from the Forbidden Forest. Although I later realized that based on the books it was possible for the greenhouses to be on the same side as the forest first impressions are sometimes difficult to erase. Back in December there was a compelling reason why I thought that the greenhouses should be on the other side. However I do not remember what it was and so I will let it rest.

Moving on: S.E., I have difficulty seeing where your asterisks are on the map.

One of the reasons I tried to make a map was so it would be possible to speculate where the graveyard must be. It has to be somewhere that the students don't normally walk by because it is never commented on. It is unlikely that it is off the road between the castle and the gates or Harry might have noticed it while walking to Hogsmeade. It's possible that it could be just off the road around the lake (maybe around those mysterious 8 words). When they go to Hogwarts it's always dark (no moonlit nights) and when they return JKR never discusses the scenery.

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ruthlesspenguin - Apr 6, 2005 3:52 am (#187 of 306)

rambkowalczyk, when you suggest that the map should be flipped to make get the sun setting in the right direction, is there a reason why Hogsmeade should be to the North of the castle? Could we just be assuming that North is that way because it is usually drawn like that on maps.

As far as the map being different to what I imagined from reading the books, I never had any clear image of how everything was arranged, however I always thought the grounds would be bigger than shown in that map. For example, the location of the dragon enclosure is described as being 'so far around the perimeter of the Forest that the castle and the lake were out of sight' (The Hungarian Horntail, GoF), however there is no location on that map where this is possible. I guess as Jo sat down and drew the map quickly, she only intended it to show the rough arrangement of things and not necessarily be to scale.

I wonder if the forest really does continue all the way to the school boundary when it runs off the map. Perhaps it is possible to walk all the way through the forest and reach something (the graveyard?) on the other side.

<(')

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rambkowalczyk - Apr 6, 2005 9:59 am (#188 of 306)

The lake is definitely south, (a clue from the 3rd book) so Hogsmeade would have to be north according to the map. I was more inclined to have Hogsmeade east because of my prejudice that there should be something significant north, south, east and west.

As for the dragon enclosure that could be north and east of the forest instead of being south of it. GOF does not say what direction Hagrid and Maxine were going when they walked the perimeter of the forest. We have to assume the trees grow so high to block the view of the castle.

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definitelyDumbledore - Apr 7, 2005 4:51 pm (#189 of 306)

I'm really sorry to change the subject, but I have a nagging thought in my head that I have to get out. My question is who makes the Hogwarts passwords and how are they decided? My questions are really only based on the fact that the Slytherin password in book 2 was "pure blood". I certainly don't think Dumbledore would choose that password, and I also have a feeling that Snape, the head of Slytherin house, wouldn't either. So who does?

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S.E. Jones - Apr 7, 2005 5:49 pm (#190 of 306)

Considering the fact that Percy knew the password in PS, right from the get-go, I'm betting that the Prefects get together and choose the passwords.

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Solitaire - Apr 8, 2005 1:45 am (#191 of 306)
Edited Apr 8, 2005 2:45 am

Then again, maybe the Head of House chooses them and tells the prefects ... who tell the rest of the kids.

Solitaire

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ruthlesspenguin - Apr 8, 2005 3:31 am (#192 of 306)

I thought it was the portraits themselves, as there was all that fuss when Sir Cadogan kept changing the password in PoA. On the other hand, the Slytherins don't seem to have a portrait, and neither does the entrance to Dumbledore's office.

I always thought Dumbledore made up his own passwords, however I think it was the office itself that decided to seal itself against Umbridge.

So my best guess would be that the castle makes up the passwords itself in consultation with whoever occupies the various rooms.

<(')

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Solitaire - Apr 8, 2005 6:28 am (#193 of 306)

Wow, ruthless ... I like that explanation.

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mike miller - Apr 18, 2005 3:18 am (#194 of 306)

Since Prefects have come up, I have a few questions regarding them. How many Prefects are there? Does each House have only one set or is there a pair for 5th year, sixth year and seventh year? What about Head Boy and Girl? If either was a seventh year Prefect, would a replacement Prefect be named?

I have a few thoughts but would like to hear your ideas since I am unfamiliar with the Prefect system.

I tend to think that each House has 3 sets of Prefects and it's the "senior" Prefects that pick the passwords. Percy was the seventh year Prefect for Gryffindor during POA and I think it fits his character and typical response to have Sir Cadogan change the password so frequently.

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Choices - Apr 18, 2005 12:19 pm (#195 of 306)

Unless I am mistaken, Percy was Head Boy in his 7th year - POA.

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Solitaire - Apr 18, 2005 1:35 pm (#196 of 306)

I believe you are right, Choices. How can we forget the twins "modifying" Percy's badge to read "Big Head Boy"? heeeeeeeee

Solitaire

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S.E. Jones - Apr 18, 2005 2:22 pm (#197 of 306)

I guess this could go in this thread...

Okay, I was thinking of the graveyard around Hogwarts that JKR mentioned would show up later (book 6 or 7?), and I was trying to think of why Hogwarts would have one. I guess they might have buried the Founders there, maybe some very important Headmasters, maybe some descendants of the Founders... Can anyone think of any other reason they'd have one? From what I can come up, I don't think the graveyard would be very big so it may not be in a spot that is easily seen, being that it could be small....

Any other thoughts?

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Solitaire - Apr 18, 2005 2:45 pm (#198 of 306)

Would such a graveyard be "Hogwarts-only" or do you think it would also be available to the citizens of Hogsmeade? I think it is possible that it might contain the graves of James and Lily ... and perhaps others whose graves might become targets of Death Eaters or those who wanted to use their remains in some sinister way. Just a hunch ...

Solitaire

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Denise P. - Apr 18, 2005 3:29 pm (#199 of 306)
Edited Apr 18, 2005 4:30 pm

Since all we know is that the 4 Founders decided to start a school for wizards, we can't say for sure if they built Hogwarts or adapted an existing castle. I think it is more likely that they used an existing building and adapted it rather than start from scratch. Assuming they did, it would not be surprising that a cemetery is located near it. I can't think that there would be that many students or staff dying that would want to be buried there rather than with the ancestral family. If it was already there, I would think local villagers would be buried there and now it would be available to those who reside in Hogsmeade.

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Choices - Apr 18, 2005 5:34 pm (#200 of 306)

I think it is probably a Hogwarts- only graveyard, but I have no canon for that. I can see Headmasters buried there who had no family left. I also think that it is where James and Lily are buried because they really had no family left (or none that cared), but it is strange to me that Dumbledore would not have told Harry. If they are indeed buried there, Dumbledore must have his reasons for keeping it quiet. I can think of all sorts of possibilities, but I won't go into them since they are just guesses.

Lady Arabella Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:14 pm

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S.E. Jones - Apr 18, 2005 8:20 pm (#201 of 306)

Well, if it were also for Hogsmeade citizens, wouldn't it be in Hogsmeade? JKR seemed to indicate, in the DVD interview with her and Cauron, that the cemetery is just off some part of the castle. It would seem more reasonable, to me anyway, that the cemetery would contain the original occupants of any place that was adapted to form Hogwarts and then a restricted few after that. I'm guessing that Hogsmeade has its own cemetery.

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pottermom34 - Apr 19, 2005 7:30 pm (#202 of 306)

Maybe it's a burial place for those who wish to remain at Hogwarts after they die, like the house ghosts and also for headmasters.

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hells456 - Apr 20, 2005 2:10 am (#203 of 306)
Edited Apr 20, 2005 3:11 am

Guessing.....

Hogwarts was probably founded before Hogsmeade. As the largest collection of wizards around, it would make sense for there to be a cemetery there for any of the general magical population to use. When Hogsmeade was really established they may have built a separate cemetery for the village, but I don't think it would be necessary.

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S.E. Jones - Apr 20, 2005 2:36 pm (#204 of 306)

I don't know that Hogwarts would've been the largest collection of wizards around that would need a cemetery. I mean, it was founded as a school, so there would mainly be students there. Later, when Hogsmeade was founded, the population of the village would've been different, having all ages, and thus needing a cemetery. So, I think any cemetery Hogwarts does have would be separate from Hogsmeade.

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haymoni - Apr 20, 2005 5:58 pm (#205 of 306)

Does Hogwarts have a graduation ceremony???

It doesn't seem so.

We didn't see Percy graduating with honors or anything.

I would guess the Weasleys would have come for the ceremony and Ron & Ginny would have been there, if there was such a thing.

Do English schools have such ceremonies?

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Choices - Apr 20, 2005 6:54 pm (#206 of 306)

haymoni - I have wondered about that too. On occasion I have wanted to say "after Charlie or Percy (or whoever) graduated" and I remind myself that Hogwarts appears not to have a graduation ceremony - nothing but the final feast and at that, there appears to be no mention of the students who are leaving for good. I end up just saying "after they left Hogwarts or finished school" - something other than graduated.

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hells456 - Apr 21, 2005 2:15 am (#207 of 306)

Most universities have graduation ceremonies, but generally schools don't. I'm not sure about boarding schools, but usually there is study leave, then exams, then maybe a celebration of some kind. Things like small dances in the school hall, informal pub crawls and we had a boat trip down the river Thames. Usually these things are not too formal and always include a large amount of alcohol and embarrassment. Well that's what we had in my area, Berkshire (south of London). We do usually refer to it as leaving or finishing school, rather than graduating.

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haymoni - May 2, 2005 2:50 pm (#208 of 306)

That explains it. Here in American we even have graduation ceremonies for kindergarten.

I've always been curious about the lack of parental involvement at Hogwarts. (Guess there's no PTA - Parent/Teachers Association.)

Montague's parents show up, but he actually disappeared for a bit.

With all the Hogwarts alumni, you'd think there would be a lot more people at the Tri-Wizard Tournament.

I really can't understand why the Grangers never show up. They ship their daughter off to who knows where, she turns into a cat and gets petrified - where are these people???

It just seems odd to me.

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Ydnam96 - May 3, 2005 11:04 pm (#209 of 306)

You know, you are right. It is rather odd that there are no parents showing up...I thought about that in CoS when all the students were petrified...

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Solitaire - May 4, 2005 10:41 am (#210 of 306)

I wonder sometimes if the Grangers were notified about Hermione's "accidents." I'm not sure they were. After all, what could Muggles do about any of the things that happened to Hermione? Most of the Wizarding parents probably attended Hogwarts themselves and know some of their kids can expect to suffer a few "mishaps" during their tenure at Hogwarts. I figure most of the Wizarding parents don't really expect to be notified of minor problems like having a wrist broken or being zapped by bubotuber pus.

What happened to Montague and Ginny are different situations. He seems to have been affected mentally and emotionally by his sojourn in the vanishing cabinet and the toilet. I suspect Professors McGonagall and Snape honestly believed Ginny would be killed in the Chamber. I doubt anyone figured Lockhart had a prayer of saving her; they all knew he was a fraud. Under those circumstances, parental visits seem warranted. I'm sure that being turned into a ferret was probably traumatic for Draco, as well; unfortunately, he is so nasty I don't really care if he is traumatized.

Solitaire

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Ms Amanda - May 4, 2005 6:06 pm (#211 of 306)

Hi Solitaire!

I think that you have been very astute in summing up when parents are contacted, and why some cases don't call for parental involvement. I'd like to reference you in the "Limits of Magical Healing" thread, if you don't mind.

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Solitaire - May 5, 2005 12:42 pm (#212 of 306)

That's fine, Ms. Amanda. I'm glad you think my post is worth it.

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haymoni - May 6, 2005 9:45 pm (#213 of 306)

I would say turning into a cat is a mishap but getting blasted by some unknown monster is quite a different story.

I've lost track of how long Hermione was Petrified. The movie makes me think it was much longer than the book. Did Harry find the page from the book in Hermione's hand when they first saw her petrified or did he find it later?

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frogface - May 7, 2005 3:04 am (#214 of 306)

He found it quite a bit later in the book. In fact I think he found it the same day that he and Ron later went into the chamber of secrets.

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Solitaire - May 7, 2005 4:26 am (#215 of 306)
Edited May 7, 2005 5:32 am

Harry found the paper in Hermione's hand just before they learned that Ginny had been taken into the Chamber. But she had been petrified at the time of Gryffindor's last Quidditch game--which was cancelled for that reason, much to Wood's dismay, since it was for the cup. I believe it was just before Hagrid was taken to Azkaban and Dumbledore dismissed as headmaster--before Harry and Ron's "trip" into the Forbidden Forest. It is about the last third of the book, and I think it is a relatively short amount of time; but a lot happens quickly. Still, they did not go to see Aragog directly from Hagrid's cabin that night, as in the movie. They were still attending classes and preparing for exams.

Remember, Harry and Ron were on their way to see Myrtle when they were discovered by McGonagall. They covered by saying they wanted to sneak in and see Hermione because it had been "ages" since they'd seen her. So they had to go, and while they were there, they noticed the paper in Hermione's clenched hand. Harry managed to work it free and read it. That's when Harry realized why he'd been the only one to hear the voices--because the monster was a basilisk, a snake. When he read Hermione's note about the pipes, he and Ron knew that they were right and it must have been Myrtle who was killed by the basilisk ... and the entrance to the Chamber was probably in her bathroom.

They were on their way to tell McGonagall what they'd learned when they heard the announcement to return to their Common rooms ... only they didn't go. They stayed and eavesdropped on the teachers, learning that Ginny had been taken.

Later, in his office, Dumbledore tells Ginny, the boys, and the Weasleys that Madam Pomfrey is giving out Mandrake juice, and the petrified victims should be waking up any moment. I'm just not sure how many days or weeks it was between that last scheduled Quidditch match and the end of the year.

Solitaire

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Choices - May 7, 2005 8:54 am (#216 of 306)

I think I read last night that Colin and Justin were petrified for 4 to 5 months - Hermione was for a good bit less than that.

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haymoni - May 7, 2005 9:38 am (#217 of 306)

OK - The Grangers don't hear from their daughter for a few days, weeks - whatever.

Wouldn't you find that strange? We never hear that Hermione doesn't get mail - only Harry. I'm guessing the Grangers are willing to strap a care package on to an owl for their daughter every once in a while.

I can't believe that Hermione wouldn't be writing to them regularly - although we never see her writing to her parents - except for the Prefect bit.

It's just odd.

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Solitaire - May 7, 2005 9:45 am (#218 of 306)

It does seem odd, haymoni. Then again, since Hermione's second year, hasn't she spent Christmas holidays either at school or with Harry and the Weasleys? I suspect that as the Muggle-borns become more and more a part of the magical world, they become less and less a part of the Muggle world.

It makes one wonder how Wizards and Witches ever happen to meet and marry Muggles, doesn't it? Their worlds would seem never to collide in such a significant way as to allow that kind of interaction. Do you suppose such Wizards and Witches meet their Muggle spouses when they meet and spend time with the familes of Muggle-born Wizards and Witches? (BTW, can't you just imagine Ginny meeting and falling for Dudley? heeeeeeeeeeee!! Sorry, I had a momentary lapse there!)

Solitaire

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Choices - May 7, 2005 10:24 am (#219 of 306)

Solitaire - "(BTW, can't you just imagine Ginny meeting and falling for Dudley? heeeeeeeeeeee!! Sorry, I had a momentary lapse there!) "

**Slaps Solitaire and yells, "Snap out of it!"** LOL

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ruthlesspenguin - May 7, 2005 2:58 pm (#220 of 306)

Solitaire, I think we need to remember we have only seen a few examples of wizarding families. In GOF we found out there were only three families living in a reasonably large area. Although the Weasley kids are able to entertain each other, if you were an only child, who couldn't apparate and had a limited floo powder allowance, you would probably be very lonely if you didn't have any muggle friends. Depending on the person, some witches and wizards would maintain these friendships when they returned from Hogwarts, and therefore be introduced to other muggles.

Also, Jo has said that some magical families send their children to muggle schools. As well as forcing them to make muggle friends, this would also give them a strong grounding in muggle culture. When they were older they would be more likely to mix with muggles, even if they were no longer in contact with their old friends.

If we accept the above, we then have to ask the question as to why the wizarding world appeared so clueless at the Quidditch World Cup. I think the first part of the answer is that some families probably do struggle a fair bit with their children having magical friends; I can just imagine the brochure te ministry puts out 'They're not completely stupid:What to do when your child's muggle friend comes to visit'.

Secondly, when reading the Camp site scene it is those who have the greatest difficulty disguising themselves that we remember the most. If we have another look at the scene we see that 'Most [of the tents] looked almost ordinary; their owners had clearly tried to make them as muggle-like as possible, but had slipped up by adding chimneys, or bell-pulls, or weather banes' (Bagman and Crouch, GoF) and that while some 'conjured fires with their wands, other were striking matches with dubious looks on their faces,'(Bagman and Crouch, GoF). From these desciptions I would say that the camping knowledge of many of the wizards is no worse than that of a muggle who has never been camping. Of those who don't comply with the regulations, I think a fair number would be doing so because they disagree about the need, rather than lacking the experience to blend in with muggles.

<(')

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Ms Amanda - May 7, 2005 5:22 pm (#221 of 306)

Isn't there some sort of statute of secrecy? We don't know much about it, except as it applies to underage magic in front of muggles and away from Hogwarts.

We know that the break between the Muggle and magical world is permanent. If Arthur had an opportunity to interact with Muggles more, I think that he would have. Even the children, who have more of an idea of muggle clothing, do not know how to use the most ubiquitous muggle appliances, such as telephones. Children aren't good at keeping secrets and they are prone to emotional magic; there would be a risk of exposing witches and wizards. There is even a Muggle Studies class to help them learn about how muggles do things and think about things. I feel that, based on knowing that there is a break between the Muggle and magical world, that there is a need for a Muggle Studies class, and that there is a statute of secrecy, children from purely magical families really haven't had much interaction with the Muggle world.

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ruthlesspenguin - May 7, 2005 10:42 pm (#222 of 306)
Edited May 7, 2005 11:45 pm

After half an hour of searching I finally found the quote I was looking for.

kai: “Where do wizarding children go to school before Hogwarts?” JK Rowling replies -> “They can either go to a Muggle primary school or they are educated at home. The Weasleys were taught by Mrs. Weasley.” World Book Day Chat 2004

I think that if kids are attending a muggle primary school, it is pretty much guaranteed they will have a large amount of contact with children from muggle backgrounds. While this may cause a few problems in terms of the statute of secrecy, I don't think they would be that great. While children may be less discrete than adults, they are also less likely to be believed. If a young witch or wizard started insisting their Mum could fly on a broom, most people would assume they were making it up.

I won't deny that there are many students at Hogwarts who have had very limited experience with muggles. The muggle-studies course would therefore be aimed (at least initially) at the level of the students with the least experience of muggles. As the topics covered in the course become more advanced, they would probably incude areas that even muggle-born students may not know about.

So to return to the topic of this thread, I don't believe the muggle and wizarding worlds are sufficiently separated to use this as an explanation for Hermione reducing the amount she corresponds with her parents. Personally I think JKR just didn't want Hermione's parents visiting for plot reasons, however she may also have some sort of justification for this.

<(') edited.

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Solitaire - May 8, 2005 3:18 am (#223 of 306)
Edited May 8, 2005 4:20 am

I would suspect that Wizarding kids in a Muggle school are the exception rather than the rule. Otherwise, the Ministry must have a special department that does nothing but modify memories of Muggle teachers, students, and school personnel--I mean in addition to the problems they handle with all other Muggles. I think Ms Amanda is correct. Otherwise, underage magic would not be such a big deal.

I think attempting to get kids from Wizarding homes to control their magical impulses--particularly when they see magic widely and "naturally" used at home in most every aspect of life--would be next to impossible. We all know how indiscreet kids are anyway. As a teacher, I can tell you that the things kids say and do--especially their little "slips"--reveal quite a bit about home life, parental values, religion, and many other very personal issues.

Kids like Harry, Hermione, and other Muggle-borns would probably have relatively few odd incidents, but I think Wizarding kids would have a tough time controlling things--especially when they are backed into situations that upset them. So ... until we are told that this is the case by Jo, I don't really accept your premise that kids from Wizarding families are that common in Muggle schools. Just my opinion, however ...

Solitaire

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Miriam Huber - May 9, 2005 4:50 am (#224 of 306)

I suppose we don´t know how often Hermione writes to her parents. JKR just doesn´t tell us, and she has stated somewhere (I´m paraphrasing) that just because she doesn´t tell us about something it does not mean it does not happen -- I think it was about Ron´s and Hermione´s birthdays who are almost never mentioned. In OoP, for example, there is not a single word about Halloween -- but, of course, that year had a Halloween feast like every other.

I can imagine that Hermione gets more and more alienated from her parents the more she gets into Wizard World. I can imagine her parents being just like mine: If I say "If have to study hard" there is absolutely no problem if I don´t visit and don´t write -- and my parents don´t dream of turning up at my house to visit me. They just leave me alone -- "I have to work/study" is accepted as explanation for everything.

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ruthlesspenguin - May 13, 2005 2:27 am (#225 of 306)

Solitaire, I bow down before your superior reasoning...

What education do the children of wizards have before going to Hogwarts? They are, as many of you have guessed, most often home educated. With very young children, as you glimpsed at the wizards' camp before the Quidditch World Cup in 'Goblet of Fire', there is the constant danger that they will use magic, whether inadvertently or deliberately; they cannot be trusted to keep their true abilities hidden. Even Muggle-borns like Harry attract a certain amount of unwelcome attention at Muggle schools by re-growing their hair overnight and so on. JKR's website. FAQ section.

Which still leaves the question of how Hogwarts students have enough contact with muggles to end up marrying one. Maybe it is simply friends of relations (if you are a half-blood) or relations of friends (if you are a pure-blood).

<(')

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Solitaire - May 14, 2005 12:33 am (#226 of 306)
Edited May 14, 2005 1:34 am

LOL Ruthless! I am not sure how superior my reasoning is. I'm just a plain Muggle teacher drawing on 19 years of "Muggle-y" experience with kids--whom I suspect are fairly similar in many ways, be they Muggle or Wizard. Experience has taught me that kids are terrible when it comes to "letting the cat out of the bag" in the most inappropriate situations. I suspect that using one's magical powers would be simply irresistible to kids in certain trying circumstances--dealing with bullies, fixing wrong answers on tests, turning annoying teachers into toads ... the possibilities are endless. The Magical Memory Modification Squad would be on 24 hour call! LOL

Solitaire

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Marè - May 16, 2005 3:58 pm (#227 of 306)
Edited May 16, 2005 5:00 pm

Okay I'm going to slightly change the subject to Hogwarts; the building! here.

After all the speculation about deaths in the next books, did any-one ever consider that it might be literally the school itself which might go down?

The Sorting Hat has been saying it all along, unite or be defeated. What if Hogwarts was attacked and the building, the school came crushing down in the process?

I doubt even Dumbledore could "reparo" that.

It would, however, give an opportunity for a fresh start, have an (unbiased) Slytherin, Gryffindor, Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw rebuild it or simply built a completely new school.

And maybe even choose new houses...

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Choices - May 16, 2005 5:10 pm (#228 of 306)

Oh, I don't even want to contemplate dear old Hogwarts not being there any more or even being different. I want it to stay just like it is - it's perfect.

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I Am Used Vlad - May 16, 2005 5:58 pm (#229 of 306)

Marè, I brought up something similar to that on the Assumptions thread a while back. I do not rule out the possibility that the Houses will not unite, and that Hogwarts will be destroyed. The books are about Harry defeating Voldemort, not the survival of the school.

I don't think this is what's going to happen, but I like to keep an open mind about all possible outcomes.

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S.E. Jones - Jun 16, 2005 2:00 pm (#230 of 306)

After reading some of the discussion on the HBP thread, I started wondering 'just why do first years have to take the boats across? So what does everyone one think? Is it symbolic of when the Founders brought the first group to the school or something?

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I Am Used Vlad - Jun 16, 2005 3:47 pm (#231 of 306)

It could just be to waste time, so the rest of the students can get seated before the sorting.

I love your avatar, by the way.

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Choices - Jun 16, 2005 4:58 pm (#232 of 306)

I think it is symbolic - sort of a rite of passage thing - the beginning of your magical education. Also an awesome way to get your first glimpse of Hogwarts Castle.

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The giant squid - Jun 17, 2005 2:42 am (#233 of 306)

My guess is sort of a combination of Vlad's & Choices'. One purpose of the boat ride is to delay the first years while everyone else gets seated, and another is to give them that really cool, awe-inspiring view of the castle.

--Mike

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GryffEndora - Jun 17, 2005 12:01 pm (#234 of 306)

Somewhere else on this forum I think someone hypothesized that the boat trip for the 1st years and Hagrid's knocking could be a way to invite the students under the protection of the magic that protects the school. The ritual recognizes them as students and includes them in those to keep safe. If this is so I wonder if they have a ritual for graduates that releases you from the protection? hmmmm...

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rambkowalczyk - Jun 17, 2005 7:45 pm (#235 of 306)

I found it odd that the place where the boats landed at Hogwarts (which is under the cliff) hasn't been mentioned again. Will it turn up in book 7 as a secret way out if Voldemort attacks Hogwarts?

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Solitaire - Jun 17, 2005 9:10 pm (#236 of 306)
Edited Jun 17, 2005 10:11 pm

Since Harry has not entered Hogwarts by boat again, there really has not been a reason to mention that landing. I've often wondered if crossing the lake is a bit like entering some sort of "portal" which allows the students to "see" Hogwarts. If it is concealed from public view--and don't we learn from Hermione that there are all kinds of spells and enchantments to keep the general public away from it?--then perhaps they need Hagrid to help them "see" the castle. Could this point to Hagrid as the Secret Keeper for Hogwarts? Just a point about which to speculate ...

Solitaire

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S.E. Jones - Jun 17, 2005 11:47 pm (#237 of 306)

I think the spells to make Hogwarts invisible are only for Muggles. I think it's like the Leaky Cauldron, Harry could see it but the Muggles around him couldn't.

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Solitaire - Jun 18, 2005 9:51 pm (#238 of 306)

What about 12GP ... didn't Harry have to be told the house was there and concentrate on it in order to see it for the first time?

I have wondered about the spells on/around the Leaky Cauldron. Didn't Hermione's parents go into the Leaky Cauldron? Maybe it was visible but just didn't look like a place anyone would actually want to go.

Solitaire

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The giant squid - Jun 18, 2005 11:44 pm (#239 of 306)

Could this point to Hagrid as the Secret Keeper for Hogwarts?--Solitaire

'Yeh'll get yer firs' sight o' Hogwarts in a sec,' Hagrid called over his shoulder, 'jus' round this bend here.' (PS/SS US paperback p. 111) Sounds to me like someone "revealing the location". After all, Hagrid is the "Keeper of Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts". I remember a thread a while back about the meaning of the word "keeper" in the series and how it showed up so often; here's a connection I hadn't thought of before.

--Mike

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S.E. Jones - Jun 19, 2005 6:30 pm (#240 of 306)

I think the reason Muggles can't see Hogwarts (they see ruins) or the Leaky Cauldron (they only see the store fronts on either side) is different than the Fidelius Charm. We know that making things 'unplottable' can keep Muggles away, so maybe that is the spell in place? There is also the example of Muggles suddenly remembering something urgent when they neared the Quidditch World Cup grounds. I don't think we can assume that the tavern and school have the Fidelius Charm on them, especially since we know that Muggles can view Hogwarts but simply see ruins where as the Fidelius Charm seems to make the object invisible to the eyes of everyone not in on the secret.

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I Am Used Vlad - Jun 19, 2005 8:21 pm (#241 of 306)

Hagrid does seem to reveal The Leaky Cauldron to Harry in SS/PS, and he must be there often enough for Tom, the bartender, to know what "the usual" is, but it would make little sense for someone who lives many hours from London and who isn't supposed to use magic to be the secret keeper for the place. If it was The Three Broomsticks, on the other hand...

As for Hagrid being the Secret Keeper for Hogwarts, the Beauxbatons and Durmstrang students can see and enter it without Hagrid's help.

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Choices - Jun 20, 2005 10:53 am (#242 of 306)

I think the trick with The Leaky Cauldron is that people can see it, but they just don't notice it.

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GryffEndora - Jun 20, 2005 2:45 pm (#243 of 306)

Choices - I think the trick with The Leaky Cauldron is that people can see it, but they just don't notice it.

Choices, is that anything like the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy definition of how to fly "fall and miss the ground"?

I think you are right that people see it but don't notice it, it just sounds funny.

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Choices - Jun 20, 2005 5:28 pm (#244 of 306)
Edited Jun 20, 2005 6:28 pm

LOL I think it was Stan Shunpike who told us that "muggles don't notice anything, do they?" Although, Stan's accent is more colorful than mine. LOL

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T Brightwater - Aug 5, 2005 4:18 pm (#245 of 306)

Reorganization at Hogwarts

Assuming Hogwarts reopens and McGonagall stays on as Headmistress, the following positions are vacant:

Transfiguration

DADA

Potions?

Head of Gryffindor House

Head of Slytherin House?

If Slughorn stays on, he would presumably take the Potions and Slytherin positions; any thoughts on whether that will happen, and who might take any of the others?

Alternatively, will there be a new Headmaster/mistress?

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Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 5, 2005 4:14 pm (#246 of 306)
Edited Aug 5, 2005 5:18 pm

Slughorn would be capable of teaching either potions or transfiguration. The transfiguration capability is based on his ability to transfigure himself into a chair.

As the replacement for Minerva as Head of Gryffindor House, I am leaning toward Hagrid because, I doubt Remus would return because of the fears his lycanthropy would raise among parents.

I think there will be at least one new staff member who the readers have not seen in a teaching role for example, the member of the Order that we have seen but have not been properly introduced to, Krum, Or Andromeda.

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Matilda the Pygmy Puff - Aug 5, 2005 4:14 pm (#247 of 306)

I would think that McGonagall would be head. I also think Slughorn would stay as potions teacher, and probably become head of Slytherin. I think Hagrid might be offered the position of head of Gryffindor, but I don't know if he'd accept. Transfiguration and DADA will likely be two new teachers, but perhaps characters we have met before.

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Madam Pince - Aug 6, 2005 9:57 am (#248 of 306)

I just can't picture Hagrid as a head of house. I mean, he barely seems able to be a proper teacher -- he scrapes by, but he's hardly outstanding, even The Trio admit that. And he's only been a professor for a couple of years, although he's been on staff for many years. Head of House seems to me to be a position that would require a bit of seniority. That being said, I have no idea who could be Gryffindor head if McGonagall goes into the Headmaster's position.

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Hogs Head - Aug 8, 2005 2:10 pm (#249 of 306)
Edited Aug 8, 2005 3:12 pm

Does anyone think the use of the vanishing chambers to "break into" Hogwarts a little strange?

Dumbledore, for one, seemed (to me) to be somewhat underwhelmed by it.

Recall in Book 1, when Charlie's friends land by broom on the top of the Astronomy Tower to collect Norbert? I for one might never have thought that merely getting to Hogwarts or on top of the Astronomy Tower was such a special problem.

Perhaps coming in through the Room of Requirements via the vanishing chambers bypassed some special security measures? If so, were these measures as good as we might have thought them to be? Was Hogwarts ever so safe as advertised?

And, if security measures were not bypassed, had some security measures instead been "turned off" on purpose, to let the DEs in? If so, turned off by whom? -- friend or foe? If by foe, was it Snape (assuming arguendo that Snape is really a foe) or some other, presently unknown turncoat? If by friend, what was the larger purpose in letting -- or perhaps luring -- the DEs into Hogwarts? More to come in Book 7?

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S.E. Jones - Aug 8, 2005 3:31 pm (#250 of 306)
Edited Aug 8, 2005 4:33 pm

--Does anyone think the use of the vanishing chambers to "break into" Hogwarts a little strange?..... Recall in Book 1, when Charlie's friends land by broom on the top of the Astronomy Tower to collect Norbert? I for one might never have thought that merely getting to Hogwarts or on top of the Astronomy Tower was such a special problem..... Perhaps coming in through the Room of Requirements via the vanishing chambers bypassed some special security measures? If so, were these measures as good as we might have thought them to be?-- Hogs Head

Charlie's friends could land on the tower so easily in PS because there were no extra protections in place at the time. We know that extra security measures were put in place by HBP, because we are specifically told so at the beginning of the school year and we hear Dumbledore muttering something to cancel out the spells as he and Harry flew over the gates.

Or, am I misunderstanding your post?

Lady Arabella Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:20 pm

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Hogs Head - Aug 8, 2005 7:02 pm (#251 of 306)

You're not misunderstanding me entirely, but perhaps a little. What were those extra precautions? If they would have stopped a roof top landing but not an appearance through a known vanishing chamber, then they weren't very good were they? Which leads me to believe (my own opinion) that Dumbledore knew that Hogwarts could be invaded and overtly did not close all the portals, etc. As if they were lured in - almost.

And besides, we were told that "extra precautions" were taken, but not what they were. How would the DEs know that a roof top landing via brooms would not work?

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S.E. Jones - Aug 8, 2005 10:11 pm (#252 of 306)

Well, they didn't protect against appearance through a known broken vanishing cabinet. Remember that the cabinet was broken and locked away in the storage room created by the Room of Requirement, so perhaps Dumbledore didn't think it was dangerous. I suppose he would have no way of knowing that Draco would hear about something happening to a fellow Slytherin while DD was away from the castle or that Draco was trying to fix it.....

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Hogs Head - Aug 9, 2005 3:24 am (#253 of 306)
Edited Aug 9, 2005 4:24 am

But the "technology" of the vanishing chamber and its genre was known. So, I think the real idea of Dumbledore's precautions was not really to keep the DEs out altogether.

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Choices - Aug 15, 2005 5:11 pm (#254 of 306)

Madam Pince - "I just can't picture Hagrid as a head of house."

I too have a bit of trouble picturing Hagrid as head of Gryffindor house - mainly because how would he fit through the portrait hole??? LOL

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1985 Muggle Born - Aug 19, 2005 7:13 am (#255 of 306)

Who will be the new headmaster??

Who do you think will be the new headmaster in Book 7 give name and explain why?

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veil 26 - Aug 18, 2005 6:19 pm (#256 of 306)

Why would anyone think it wouldn't be McGonagall? Perhaps the more interesting question is: who will be the new deputy headmaster/mistress in Book 7? No obvious candidate (now that Snape's gone--I always thought D'dore would eventually go and Snape would remain, till Book 6)--Sprout's not a good manager, Slughorn's too self-obsessed; perhaps Flitwick.

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Phelim Mcintyre - Aug 19, 2005 1:32 am (#257 of 306)

veil 26, I agree. As the gargoyle moved aside for McGonagall but didn't for Umbridge, this suggests she is now the rightful headteacher at Hogwarts. (The Gargoyle issue is a major reason why I see DD as dead.)

Of the head of houses the most realistic is Flitwick. But who, if anyone, is going to be the next head of Gryffindor?

The link between Dumbedore and McGonagall are many. Both transfiguration lecturers, both head of Gryffindor. McGonagall is now in the right position to fulfill her vow to help Harry become an auror, if that is what he still wants to do.

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Dame Peverell - Aug 19, 2005 2:15 am (#258 of 306)
Edited Aug 19, 2005 3:43 am

Horace Slughorn: like it or not.
- So that will leave Slytherin open and you can bet one of LV's cronies will get the job.
- But what of DADA? I like the thought of Bill Weasley but no. Could be Umbridge but it will probably go to a new character, who will also be in LV's camp.

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Good Evans - Aug 19, 2005 3:23 am (#259 of 306)

McGonagall will be headmistress, the Q is indeed who is the next head of house, but also who is the next transfiguration teacher????

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Dame Peverell - Aug 19, 2005 4:47 am (#260 of 306)

I agree McGonagall should be, but she won't be come next term.
- Slughorn has many years of experience at Hogwarts.
-He has all the right connections at the MOM and elsewhere.
-He is sufficiently well liked.
- His role has just begun...

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1985 Muggle Born - Aug 19, 2005 6:11 am (#261 of 306)

Very good answers so far, I agree with everyone who thinks Profesor McGonagall will remain as headteacher but for the head of Gryffindor, I think it would probably one of the Order of the Phoenix. It’s very hard to guess who will be new head of house that why I cannot think of any one special enough for the role of Head of Gryffindor.

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Steve Newton - Aug 19, 2005 7:13 am (#262 of 306)

Since Hagrid was invited to the meeting in McGonagall's Headmistress Office I think that Hagrid is the new head of Gryffindor.

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Hogs Head - Aug 19, 2005 11:10 am (#263 of 306)
Edited Aug 19, 2005 12:11 pm

Has Hagrid ever been afforded a retrospective "degree" or graduation certificate (or its equivalent) to make up for his wrongful expulsion? Has his wand and ability to use it been restored? I can't recall. While he might be groundskeeper and a teacher of the care of magical animals, making someone head of a house who is not considered a "full" wizard might be a little too much for the MoM.

Whether Slughorn or someone else, it stands to reason in light of prior MoM incompetence that McGonagall (though deserving) will be deprived the Headmistress honor at the outset of Book 7. By the end of Book 7, my guess is it will likely be either her or -- depending upon your "end of Book 6" theories -- a revived Albus Dumbledore or an emerging Aberforth Dumbledore.

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Dame Peverell - Aug 19, 2005 3:12 pm (#264 of 306)
Edited Aug 19, 2005 4:13 pm

While McGonagall's the best, for sure, she has slowed down. I think the school Governors would be very happy to have the prestigious and influential Slughorn as Head with McGonagall as his deputy. It just ties in so well with how JKR has developed his character.

IMHO too many folks here look at the next book as beginning with "and they lived happily ever after" First, hope will fail us. Then, like the Phoenix, we will have to go through fire before we are reborn.

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timrew - Aug 19, 2005 3:13 pm (#265 of 306)

But isn't Slughorn about 100 years older than McGonagall?

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haymoni - Aug 19, 2005 5:36 pm (#266 of 306)

I've never heard anyone say anything terrible about Minerva. I think she is well-respected, and while she may not be Dumbledore, I'm sure most wizards know her as someone who can handle herself and her students.

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Hogs Head - Aug 20, 2005 9:15 am (#267 of 306)
Edited Aug 20, 2005 10:19 am

The question isn't whether the Minerva character is qualified -- she certainly is portrayed to be just that. (Although who would want to follow the act of the "greatest headmaster ever at Hogwarts"?) However, one central theme of JKR's in Books 1 through 6 is that if the bureaucrats can mess anything up, they will. She hasn't exactly portrayed the MoM bureaucracy-hierarchy or the Hogwarts board of governors as evil, but certainly as weak and bumbling.

I suppose on one level this is essential to the plot -- first our hero's mentor (Dumbledore) and now our hero (Harry) must face and defeat the great evil without the aid of an all knowing, all caring, all powerful bureaucracy. And if they just had a committee meeting and voted Voldemort out (and he obeyed), where would the story line be in that? :goofy”

On another level, I suppose she is giving us a story-line message or moral that we have some personal responsibilities and duties that we simply can't delegate to others -- even if the others are the official organs and bureaucracies.

So, all that being said, count on the board of governors and/or MoM to mess up the headmaster thing -- perhaps pretty severely. Why, they might even bring Umbridge back or install someone much worse (like a secret DE, etc.). After all, do we really think that Voldy's plan to rub out Dumbledore was so one-dimensional? And with others of the more reliable MoM or Wizengamot members also eliminated (Bones, etc.), look for someone quite evil to emerge from the mix. Just a guess, but that's mine for today, which I reserve the right to change and/or disavow this afternoon.

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Dame Peverell - Aug 20, 2005 2:40 pm (#268 of 306)
Edited Aug 20, 2005 4:33 pm

We are assuming, obviously, that the school will be open next year. The whole purpose of the school is to educate and I think MM's worries aside, it will be open. I even think Harry will return - that DD will somehow convince him to or that he feels the need to be there because that is where the action is.

I think Hogwarts will be where the big action is. I also see DD as planning on the final battle between Harry and LV to occur at Hogwarts.

Of course I also think LV could be possessing Slughorn with good result so go figure what you will.

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Saralinda Again - Aug 20, 2005 8:35 pm (#269 of 306)

JKR has stated that there is an equal number of headmasters and headmistresses (just as the staff is equally divided), so it is indeed time for a headmistress. I'm placing my galleons on Minerva McGonagall at the helm, with Slughorn as Deputy and Hagrid as head of Gryffindor.

ô¿ô Guessing wrong consistently on Harry Potter since 2001

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Dame Peverell - Aug 27, 2005 11:39 pm (#270 of 306)

I have no problems with Hagrid per se, but I don't see anyone but DD putting him up for Head of House successfully. He never even graduated!

No, it will probably start out with Minerva as head with Horace as Deputy. Then some blow-up will occur and Minerva will have to resign leaving Horace in charge. Cornelius Fudge might be looking for a job.

We'll see. Wish it would be soon.

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Choices - Aug 28, 2005 8:08 am (#271 of 306)

Dame Paverell - "but I don't see anyone but DD putting him up for Head of House successfully. He never even graduated!"

I think if Hagrid can become a professor without graduating, he can surely be Head of House.

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Dame Peverell - Aug 28, 2005 12:02 pm (#272 of 306)

I love Hagrid. Why do I put myself in the position of having to denounce him? Ugh!

He drinks like a fish and he smells like one too. He has gotten into too much trouble over the years and narrowly escaped even more. DD has covered for his using magic. Now he's a man with a broken wand. He has only been a Professor a few years.

Placing Hagrid at the Head of Griffindor House might just get McGonagall sacked.

I believe that Hagrid has the courage, compassion, dedication, and loyalty that would make him an excellent Head of House.

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timrew - Aug 28, 2005 3:07 pm (#273 of 306)

Dame Peverell:- He drinks like a fish and he smells like one too. He has gotten into too much trouble over the years and narrowly escaped even more. DD has covered for his using magic. Now he's a man with a broken wand. He has only been a Professor a few years.

All the qualities to make an excellent Head of House........Headmaster even!

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Romulus - Sep 1, 2005 4:23 am (#274 of 306)

Just to clear something up re: Hagrid - most British schools don't have a "graduation" - you don't get a certificate for attending or anything like that. You do exams at 16 (and 18 if you stay on), these are called GCSEs and A Levels, the equivalent of OWLS and NEWTS, but there is no graduation ceremony - usually you just get your results and then go down the pub with your mates! So while Hagrid doesn't have NEWTS or OWLS, if he is qualified enough to teach he is qualified enough to be a head of house.

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Derek Robertson - Sep 24, 2005 5:15 pm (#275 of 306)

I think Hogwarts will be open next year but, to the dismay of some fans Harry, Ron and Hermione will not be in attendance.

JKR said in an interview that "When people have finished reading this book, they will really know what to expect in book seven and I think I give very clear pointers as to what Harry will do next." Now at the end of HBP Harry makes his intentions pretty clear: Wedding, Dursleys, Godrics Hollow, Parents graves, No Hogwarts, find and destroy horcruxes.

When JKR was interviewed recently she said about the DADA position "Cara McKenzie for Radio Forth - Every year since Harry has been to Hogwarts the defense against the dark arts teacher has left Hogwarts or died every year. Does that mean that something will stop Snape from being the defense against the dark arts in book 7?”

JK Rowling: “Yes. I really can't say more than that. That is because one of those questions that is a very good question and everyone would like to know the answer but it gives a lot away. There must obviously be a new one.”

That very last line means to me that Hogwarts will be open as JKR has a new DADA teacher lined up.

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Soul Search - Sep 25, 2005 8:30 am (#276 of 306)
Edited Sep 25, 2005 9:35 am

Since this discussion has returned to who will be appointed Headmaster, I thought I would re-post an idea I suggested a while back as a "Horrible Thought" on the "Will Harry Return ..." topic.

The Ministry still wants to control Hogwarts, and, thereby, Harry.

The school governors pick the headmaster. We saw in CoS and OotP that they are, for the most part, controlled by the Ministry of Magic.

What better choice for headmistress than someone with previous exemplary experience.

UMBRIDGE!

Why not? She is still at the Ministry. The Ministry, and most everyone who wasn't at Hogwarts, thinks she did a great job. All the staff and students loved her. (Just read the Prophet.) A whole bunch of Slytherin students supported her. Filch thought she was the best thing that ever happened to the school.

And, she kept the Ministry well informed, and did everything they wanted her to do.

Her only problem was those horrible centaurs that attacked her.

Wouldn't that be fun.

And Harry would restart Dumbledore's Army.

(Actually, the more I think about it, this may be the reason the storyline makes a couple of mentions of Umbridge and specifically establishes that she is still at the ministry. Percy may even come along with her.)

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Hogs Head - Oct 2, 2005 1:01 pm (#277 of 306)
Edited Oct 2, 2005 2:02 pm

I think we won't see Umbridge in the role of Headmistress in Book 7. Harry has too much to do to be messing around with her antics. He has places to go, horcruxes to find and destroy, Godric's Hollows to visit, RABs to solve, Snapes to resolve, DD death or fake deaths to unwind -- whew, sounds like a Tom Clancy-sized novel to me.

And besides, Umbridge just isn't interesting enough to be the final (or semi-final) Head of School.

Maybe as intriguing -- who will be the Defense Against Dark Arts teacher in Book 7? Slughorn or maybe Aberforth or maybe someone we've never heard of before?

(Now that I think about it, did the year Vapormort spent on the back of Quirrel's head count as a year in which Voldy was DADA teacher or "assistant" teacher?)

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Ana Cis - Oct 2, 2005 3:21 pm (#278 of 306) Reply
Edited by Oct 2, 2005 4:21 pm

If Umbridge comes back as the new Headmistress, this is what I would recommend the teachers to do: Buy the Vanishing Cabinet at Bogins and Burkes, take it, break it, move its pair out of the ROR and into Hogwarts, and stuff her inside w/out her wand, until such time as the Voldemort is vanquished. However, that would make me as low and nasty as her, so forget the idea. Maybe, they can to a binding spell and take her back to the Centaurs to look after her. That sounds pretty bad too...I'll think of something.

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Choices - Oct 3, 2005 7:57 am (#279 of 306)
Edited Oct 3, 2005 8:59 am

I don't know why, but I tend to think that the new head (I hope it's McGonagall) will be sympathetic to Harry because I think a lot of the action in book 7 will take place at Hogwarts and Harry will have too much to do to be at odds with the new head. Harry will be needing to get into the head's office to converse with Dumbledore's portrait or to use the Pensieve, and a sympathetic head will make that easier.

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pottermom34 - Oct 4, 2005 7:08 am (#280 of 306)

Not to mention the Headmaster's office probably would not let Umbridge in.

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 16, 2006 5:45 pm (#281 of 306)

I'm sure it's already been discussed, but it seems possible that Vold returned to Hogwarts -- in DD's memory of Lord Voldemort's Request chapter -- to hide a horcrux in the school. If so, it could be any object we don't know is a "relic", but perhaps the tiara as many have speculated. I wonder if Vold could have gone to RoR, wandered the halls before his meeting with DD that day, or if there's an enchantment that prevents visitors from moving freely...

If not the RoR, maybe a horcrux could be in the Trophy Room or even something hiding in plain sight, although I doubt Vold would risk it.

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The giant squid - Feb 17, 2006 4:54 am (#282 of 306)

Perhaps his trophy for Special Services to the School? (Last seen in CoS when Ron was burping up slugs...)

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Choices - Feb 17, 2006 11:01 am (#283 of 306)

Either that, or the Hufflepuff cup could be in the trophy case.

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me and my shadow 813 - Feb 17, 2006 3:40 pm (#284 of 306)

We are of like minds, Choices and giant squid. The Special Services to the School trophy was mentioned in HBP again by DD, and it seems strange that we need to be reminded of it. But then I, too, thought the Cup could be discreetly tucked in the trophy case, since we know it has two handles which is how a lot of trophy cups look. It makes sense to me that Vold would want a fragment of his soul inside Hogwarts since it is one of his most valued locations. And the diary wasn't in Hogwarts until Lucius used it for his own purposes, so that one doesn't qualify. As far as it being too risky, too accessible, in Horcruxes chapter DD tells Harry that Vold was indeed semi-careless with them because there's so many of them.

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bigearl - Feb 20, 2006 9:12 am (#285 of 306)

I think one of the Horcruxes, might be hidden in the Room of Requirement, with all that junk people have hidden through the years, I think it would be the unknown artifact of Ravenclaw.

Because, I think Hufflepuff's Cup maybe hidden in Gringotts, as Tom Riddle worked close by in Knockturn Alley, just prior to it's disappearance.

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Solitaire - Feb 20, 2006 11:06 pm (#286 of 306)

I'm with those who hold out for McGonagall as Headmistress. I don't see Slughorn as Headmaster material. He is a bit too fussy and self-absorbed--and also a bit of a chicken--and these are dangerous times. Hogwarts needs a Head who is cool and capable, and McGonagall fills that bill, IMO. Besides, I see Slughorn as necessary to bringing the non-DE Slytherins into the overall Hogwarts fold.

As to Head of House for Gryffindor ... I must admit Hagrid was my first thought, too, after he was summoned by McGonagall with the others. Is he Head of House material? Hm ... he is definitely a Gryffindor and also "Dumbldore's man, through and through." He does not have the polish one would expect of a Head of House, I suppose, but I guess it is rather slim pickins! Then again, perhaps we will see one of the less visible professors (Vector, Sinistra, Grubbly-Plank, Hooch) step in and fill that role.

Solitaire

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bigearl - Mar 8, 2006 2:12 pm (#287 of 306)

How did students get to Hogwarts before The Hogwarts Express? The train has only been around since the 1800's, and Hogwarts much longer.

I find it odd that wizards use (and sometimes bewitch) some muggle items, but denounce others. Considering many wizards don't even know how dress like a muggle, or even know what a policeman is.

I can see some Pure-Blood Wizards, way back when, being outraged at putting their children on a train "the new muggle invention", even if it's bewitched.

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K Stahl - Mar 9, 2006 2:42 pm (#288 of 306)

A caravan of magic carpets. They were only banned on living memory.

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Choices - Mar 9, 2006 6:31 pm (#289 of 306)

According to an advertisement at the Quidditch World Cup, it seems they make a broomstick (the Bluebottle) that is a family conveyance. Perhaps the families flew their kids to Hogwarts before the Hogwarts' Express came into being?

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TwinklingBlueEyes - Mar 10, 2006 3:49 am (#290 of 306)

And muggle-born kids walked?

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frogface - Mar 10, 2006 4:30 am (#291 of 306)

Perhapes magic carpets were arranged for the students. After all they used to be legal if I remember correctly. Or maybe the children traveled to the Ministry Headquaters in London and other locations and went to Hogwarts by floo powder. Also Portkeys could have been set up at strategic locations. Or MAYBE trains were invented by witches and wizards a 1000 years ago and they just didn't let the muggles in on it for a few centuries lol.

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Choices - Mar 10, 2006 9:49 am (#292 of 306)

Hope they invented some tracks also or those magical trains wouldn't get far. LOL

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TheSaint - Mar 11, 2006 12:14 pm (#293 of 306)

As most British homes contain a fireplace..my bet is floo powder.

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Solitaire - Mar 12, 2006 1:24 am (#294 of 306)

The Lexicon says the following: Flying Carpets rather than brooms are the standard magical means of transportation in Asia and the Middle East ... Flying Carpets were once legal in Britain, but have been illegal for years since they are now on the Registry of Proscribed Charmable Objects.

Does anyone know when they were banned? Perhaps carpets were used before the Hogwarts Express came into being. Also, we know Madam Maxime used a large flying coach. Could flying coaches also have been a previous method of transportation?

Solitaire

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The giant squid - Mar 12, 2006 1:45 am (#295 of 306)

I could see a magical flying coach being used, enchanted like the MOM cars to be bigger inside than out (to fit an entire school's worth of kids).

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K Stahl - Mar 13, 2006 7:29 am (#296 of 306)

In Goblet of Fire, Crouch remembers his family having a flying carpet.

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Krzysztof - Sep 14, 2009 5:08 am (#297 of 306)
Edited Sep 14, 2009 6:16 am

I think the wizard families was sending theirs kids on broomsticks, via Floo network, thought portkeys and simply travel in carriages pulled by horses. But these carriages were enlarged inside with a spell, and maybe look inside like living-room.

I wanna say a word about leaky cauldron. I think muggle don't see his door because it covered by Disillusionment Charm against insensible for magic muggles eyes. Then every wizard/witch and maybe even Squib will see any doors between two shops, and every muggle will slide his look from one side to the other (we can say he see the doors but he don't notice it).

But now I want to speak about my project of Marauder's map, and Hogwarts plan. (I know so many of you have tried that before me) First I want try to make plan of Hogwarts environment, and every floor (from dungeon to top of the astronomical tower), then put it all to one sheet of pergamin and change into Marauder's map. I reread all 7 books (now every one known them but this topic is a bit old), and found almost 100 quotes corresponding to Hogwarts plan. Then in lexicon and on this forum found many more absolutely necessary and fundamental importance quotes and information (so without this lexicon I will be not able to make this what i try to make). I have started making castle plan but it is in one's infancy for now. Some times later I will show it here.

For now I make few calculations and assumptions to make the castle plan possible. I want impart with you and hear what you think about this calculations and assumptions:

1) School is designed for 1008 students and 30 person of stuff (24 teachers, headmaster, and rest).

2) So in great hall will be 4 table 1,5m (4,9feet) width and 50m(164 feet) long (126 hairs on each side), and stuff table 24m(79feet) long with 30 hairs.

3) In each dormitory will be able (only able) to have 9 bunkbeads (one student sleep above the other one) (18 students per dormitory, in 14 dormitories per house for total 1008 students).

4) Common room in each house enough big to fit (tightly) 252 students.

5) In castle 20 class room in everyday use (without class in towers and outside of castle).

6) 24 cabinets (I'm not sure is that correct word “cabinet”) for every teacher

7) 2 bathroom for boys and 2 for girls on every floor (every bathroom have two or three rooms)

Cool

2 cupboards per floor

9) 30 private rooms for every staff member

10) Above rooms divided by the number of floors give me about 20 rooms per floor.

11) Castle will have more than 7 towers (north, west, south, east, gryffindor, ravenclaw, headmaster).

12) Castle will have additionally library (almost 45000 square meters area/48437square feet), hospital wing (dormitory, office, isolation ward and medicine storage) , kitchen with storage rooms, laundry (few rooms)

13) Castle will be about 160mx190m(524feet x 623feet) and at least 45m(148feet) height in main building, towers will range almost 100m(328feet) from ground level.

14) Castle itself is made of magic it is stone, brick, and wood building, but he is supported by magic (without magic floors will drop down to the one below, the water will not flow from taps, towers will collapse and the stairs will be 10 times longer, with no despairing step, the chimney will not work).

15) Front door of castle are facing to west or few degrees to south. Leak is to south and south-east from castle, quidditch pitch to south-west, forbidden forest from north-west through north to north-east, Hagrid's cabin and whooping willow to north-west, vegetables patch to north (but east from north tower), greenhouses to north-east, small graveyard to east over a cliff, and winged boars gate to west.

Now, what you think of that all? If you find any mistake I will change these assumptions to fill with yours explanations.

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PeskyPixie - Sep 15, 2009 7:57 pm (#298 of 306)

Wow. I am speechless.

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Madam Pince - Sep 21, 2009 1:40 pm (#299 of 306)

Krzysztof, I too am speechless. Wow, that is a lot of work you did there! I am impressed! I will need some time to digest all of it and think it through before I can give you any kind of a semi-educated response. In the meantime, congratulations on your good work!

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Mrs. Sirius - Sep 24, 2009 5:24 am (#300 of 306)

11) Castle will have more than 7 towers (north, west, south, east, gryffindor, ravenclaw, headmaster).

I too am very impressed by your research Kryzysztof and will ponder more on it. I think the astronomy tower is an additional separate tower. Is it described as the tallest tower?

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Krzysztof - Sep 24, 2009 2:36 pm (#301 of 306)
Edited Sep 24, 2009 3:38 pm

Yes indeed, so there should be 8 towers at least:
1) Gryffindor tower
2) Ravenclaw tower - in west part of castle
3) Astronomical Tower - the tallest tower
4) Headmaster tower
5) North tower - divination
6) West tower - owlery
7) South tower
Cool

East tower

Thanks you very much Mrs. Sirius

I made little project of Gryffindor Tower, but it's almost impossible to fit 14 dormitories one per floor, even with low ceiling, so I divide tower into two smaller towers rising over Gryffindor common room/tower. Please look: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Mrs. Sirius - Sep 26, 2009 4:50 am (#302 of 306)

Wow, Krzysztof, that is impressive. I had not actually thought it through that there were 14 dorms per house. Your work is amazing.

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Krzysztof - Oct 9, 2009 12:07 pm (#303 of 306)
Edited Oct 9, 2009 1:07 pm

Picture from project of Astronomical, Ravenclaw and West towers. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Noticed curiosity: When I'm trying to put together towers and other castle rooms, the towers together take as much place as whole rest of castle, but don't worry I still try to solve this castle Smile

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PeskyPixie - Oct 29, 2009 2:07 pm (#304 of 306)

Wow. Fifty points to your House, Krzysztof.

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Krzysztof - Dec 26, 2009 10:23 am (#305 of 306)

New update in project. I decided to change a bit attitude to the project. First I'm gonna make precise functional/communication plan of castle, it is a first version: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (Only to show you how many rooms should have this castle, when it have only three classrooms per floor). And my master plan for castle: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Potteraholic - Dec 26, 2009 10:47 am (#306 of 306)

W O W !
Those plans are amazing Krzysztof!

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