Horcruxes (18 Jul 2005 to 11 Dec 2006) - posts #2251 to #2300

Potteraholic Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:23 pm

Weeny Owl - May 30, 2006 1:14 pm (#2251 of 2969)

So, if he is a Horcrux, in order for love to fit in, he would have to sacrifice himself for wizarding kind.

No, he wouldn't. His love could be used another way, such as when Voldemort couldn't possess him in the Ministry.

Harry has been possessed. In the Ministry.

Voldemort wasn't a Horcrux, though. Voldemort was the full thing, however many soul bits are gone. It was the actual wizard who possessed Harry and not the Horcrux.

It's possible that the Horcrux couldn't possess Harry because it wasn't necessarily the Horcrux that possessed Ginny. Without Diary Tom involved, the diary might just have been a "holding cell," so to speak, for the Horcrux, but with the addition of the Tom Riddle memory, that was what allowed Ginny to be possessed.

geauxtigers - May 30, 2006 1:33 pm (#2252 of 2969)

All I can conclude is whether or he is a Horcrux accidental or not, love will somehow save him. Love is the power the Dark Lord knows not so maybe that alone can destroy a Horcrux. Maybe it is slowly being destroyed all these years. DD said there is a room in the Department of mysteries that contains a force so powerful ..... or something and that is LOVE. I feel sure that if love is so powerful and love is the power the Dark Lord knows not, that a Horcrux couldn't exist in Harry or at least not very long. I'll try to find that quote later but right now I have to study...

virginiaelizabeth - May 30, 2006 1:37 pm (#2253 of 2969)

It's possible that the Horcrux couldn't possess Harry because it wasn't necessarily the Horcrux that possessed Ginny. Without Diary Tom involved, the diary might just have been a "holding cell," so to speak, for the Horcrux, but with the addition of the Tom Riddle memory, that was what allowed Ginny to be possessed.,/I>

I agree, I have always thought that it was the memory that possessed Ginny, not the Horcrux. I don't think that Horcruxes would draw attention to themselves like that. The purpose is to protect the soul bit from danger, so I don't think they would go around trying to possess other living things, where they stand a chance of being damaged. They are pieces of soul and don't have a mind of their own, so I think it was the memory that possessed Ginny.

HungarianHorntail11 - May 30, 2006 3:33 pm (#2254 of 2969)
Edited May 30, 2006 4:34 pm

I hope no one minds my switching gears here for a moment, but I am so far behind on the Snape thread and wanted to post a thought. There was a discussion as to how RAB got the locket in the first place, and then there was the idea that RAB died there and was an Inferi, then the question was - how did the locket leave the cave?

I was wondering if he could have tossed the locket into the boat and someone pulled it back from the shoreline to retrieve it. Someone too big to get into the boat with him. Someone who got it back to the Black house if indeed that was the same locket everyone tried to open in vain.

TheSaint - May 30, 2006 5:47 pm (#2255 of 2969)

Here is a possibility for Love. I have read that Cabala has a belief in reincarnation and souls not reaching enlightenment are sent back to try again. Those who are unable to reach enlightenment on their own can be joined with more capable souls and sort of hitchhike their way to eternity.

It is possible that this soul bit that Harry is carrying around, is learning to love. Harry first thinks of Tom Riddle as a childhood friend...then when he is battling Voldie in the end of PS he hears someone calling his own name, possibly inside his own head. Suppose Harry is nurturing this one piece with love and should it be returned to Voldie, surely the conflict it would create between his consciousness and his heart would be enough to destroy him. Sort of self-implosion if you will. Harry still defeats Voldie , but does not commit murder, Voldie does.

Soul Search - May 31, 2006 5:16 am (#2256 of 2969)
Edited May 31, 2006 6:24 am

TheSaint,

"It is possible that this soul bit that Harry is carrying around, is learning to love."

Interesting thought. Can a soul-bit in a Horcrux, or the Harry Horcrux, be influenced by its object, in this case Harry? What happens if this "contaminated" soul-bit meets its original soul?

I was wondering about Dumbledore's reasoning for Nagini being a Horcrux. Dumbledore suggested that Voldemort had more control over Nagini than could be attributed to mere possession. Therefore, Voldemort must have made Nagini a Horcrux.

The implication is that using a living thing as a Horcrux provides some kind of link to it. Sort of what we are seeing between Voldemort and Harry.

Now, what happens of the soul-bit becomes contaminated, say with "love?"

Choices - May 31, 2006 8:03 am (#2257 of 2969)
Edited May 31, 2006 9:03 am

I tend to think that Voldemort's control over Nagini has a lot to do with the fact that he speaks her language.

Magic Words - May 31, 2006 8:15 am (#2258 of 2969)

Didn't Dumbledore say it was impressive control even for a Parseltongue? Don't have the book with me...

virginiaelizabeth - May 31, 2006 8:38 am (#2259 of 2969)

He does. Here's the quote:

"he certainly likes to keep her close, and he seems to have an unusual amount of control over her, even for a Parselmouth."(507 HBP US HDBK)

I never read it the way you have before Magic Words, and it's very interesting to me. I always read as Voldemort made sure that he had complete control over her because she contained part of his soul. More that he worked extremely hard to keep her close, and that requires a certain amount of control, and that's what made DD suspicious about her "Horcrux possibility". The thought never even occurred to me that it may be because of a connection between them. It's just a matter of how you read it I guess, but very interesting nonetheless, and something I will have to consider now...

::wanders off to think this over::

Magic Words - May 31, 2006 9:01 am (#2260 of 2969)

I'm interested in exactly what was going on when Harry dreamed he was a snake attacking Arthur Weasley. It seems that Voldemort was possessing Nagini, and Harry saw it through his link with Voldemort. To me, this raises several questions: Was it because she was a Horcrux that Voldemort could possess her? He'd possessed animals before, but he didn't have a body of his own then. Does Harry have any kind of link with Nagini, or was he seeing what she saw entirely through Voldemort? And of course, what's the relation between what happened to Nagini then and what happened to Harry at the end of the book?

HungarianHorntail11 - May 31, 2006 9:47 am (#2261 of 2969)
Edited May 31, 2006 10:48 am

Magic Words, if that is how he was able to possess her, it seems to follow then, that if Big V could possess Nagini because she is a Horcrux, and he possessed Harry in OotP, then perhaps he suspects/knows Harry has become a Horcrux. It then makes sense to me why he gave strict orders not to kill Harry.

virginiaelizabeth - May 31, 2006 9:50 am (#2262 of 2969)

I think he had strict orders not to kill Harry because Voldemort wanted to do it. The DE's are always saying to leave Harry for the Dark Lord, or is that movie contamination?

Mattew Bates - May 31, 2006 10:40 am (#2263 of 2969)

That is certainly what Voldy would tell the DE's, virginiaelizabeth, but I think he has ulterior motives that he would prefer not to explain to the rabble.

Magic Words - May 31, 2006 12:43 pm (#2264 of 2969)

I just assumed he wouldn't let his DE's attack Harry because he knew they couldn't kill him. The prophecy forbids it.

Mattew Bates - May 31, 2006 2:17 pm (#2265 of 2969)
Edited May 31, 2006 3:19 pm

I don't see the Potter Prohibition being about the prophecy so much as I see it being about Voldy still wanting to use Harry's murder to make a last Horcrux. As my thought patterns on this are a bit scattered, I'll just float out some ideas that are leading me towards this conclusion.

Per DD, Voldemort originally wanted to use Harry's murder to create a Horcrux.

Vold knows Harry destroyed the diary Horcrux.

There seems to be some doubt as to whether or not Nagini was actually made into a Horcrux; DD said he makes big mistakes virtually in the same breath as hypothesizing about Nagini's Horcruxity.

We don't really know if there is an upper limit to how may times someone can split their soul to make Horcruxes, since Vold seems to be the first to make more than one.

We don't really know if Vold's goal of a seven-part-soul focused more on the number of splits, or the finished product.

If Harry or his scar is an accidental Horcrux, there's still a decent chance that Vold doesn't know it, so his Horcruxity would have no bearing on why Vold wants Harry alive (sorry, HH11). Even if Vold does know, he may still want six functional anchors, and he may have a way to transfer a soulbit to a new object. (Just for the record, I'm riding the fence on the Harrycrux/ Scarcrux/ Accicrux/ Nocrux issue.)

HungarianHorntail11 - May 31, 2006 3:03 pm (#2266 of 2969)

Mattew, I was tossing around ideas to see if it worked out logically. Not intending to make it seem as though I was sold on the idea.

I think he has ulterior motives that he would prefer not to explain to the rabble. LOL rabble

Care to expand on your ideas regarding ulterior motives?

MzWhizz123 - May 31, 2006 6:17 pm (#2267 of 2969)

Matthew--You bring up a good point about Voldemort's determination to kill Harry himself. IF Harry is a Horcrux and IF LV knows this, perhaps he intends to preserve that piece before polishing off Harry, (and no, I don't believe that will actually happen.)

Just saluting your flag, Matthew.

Mattew Bates - May 31, 2006 9:14 pm (#2268 of 2969)

And here I thought I had, HungarianHorntail11. Sure, he wants to kill Harry, but it's a bit of a secret what he plans to use that murder for. He's not going to let slip to the DE's (or anybody, for that matter) that he plans to use Harry's murder to make a Horcrux. To be really cruel, he might plan to make an Inferius of the corpse afterwards.

Luckily, the best laid plans of mice & Dork Lards often goes squeak.

HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 1, 2006 7:40 am (#2269 of 2969)

For some when I read the ulterior motives part, Mattew, I thought there was more to it. Your Big V/Horcrux idea makes sense, but I thought there might have been a twist of some sort.

HH11

Mattew Bates - Jun 1, 2006 10:24 am (#2270 of 2969)

Well, I hope JKR to has twists up her sleeves that I lack the imagination to predict. If one of them happens to be along this train of thought, all the better.

Quidditch Mom - Jun 3, 2006 2:49 am (#2271 of 2969)

I figured Voldemort wants to kill Harry (at the point we are now in the series) was a matter of pride. It is well known in the wizarding world that Harry has eluded Voldemort more times than any living person. Voldemort hasn't been able to get rid of him. If someone else kills Harry for Voldemort, what does that do to Voldemort's status as the most powerful dark wizard in the world?

Madame Pomfrey - Jun 3, 2006 7:29 am (#2272 of 2969)

I totally agree, Quidditch Mom. I have also asked myself why Voldemort has ordered someone else (Draco) to kill Dumbledore. After all, he is the only one Voldemort ever feared. This whole having Draco kill Dumbledore thing makes him look the worst kind of coward.

Choices - Jun 3, 2006 9:38 am (#2273 of 2969)

Could it be that Voldemort wanted to give Draco what he thought was an impossible mission, and his failure would shame and punish Lucius for his failures?

HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 3, 2006 10:54 am (#2274 of 2969)

I have also asked myself why Voldemort has ordered someone else (Draco) to kill Dumbledore.

For that reason, I don't think it is enough that Big V wants to kill Harry himself to "save face." There must be more to it and I think Mattew's explanation is fitting. Choices, Snape did say, however, that he thought Big V wanted him to do it in the end. IMHO, he wanted DD DEAD and out of the way once and for all. Also, I think that the very fact that he wanted someone such as DD dead and managed it (or so we think) would still command attention regardless of who performed the task.

haymoni - Jun 5, 2006 6:26 am (#2275 of 2969)

Narcissa messed up and said even The Dark Lord could not kill Dumbledore, so I don't think it was for lack of trying.

Dumbledore trusts people - except for Tom Riddle - so he would trust a student, he would trust a professor. If you use these folks to get to Dumbledore, it would be a lot easier than having Voldy show up at the castle AK'ing everything in sight.

cindysuewho45 - Jun 8, 2006 2:33 am (#2276 of 2969)
Edited Jun 8, 2006 3:35 am

Hi all, I was just looking at all the post and thought I would add to it. As for LV killing Harry and doing something with him, I do not feel that LV will need or want to do anything but kill him. LV already got what he needed from Harry. All he wants now is to let all the DE's know that he, LV, can kill Harry. That Harry is nothing to him or nothing for them to wonder about!! LV has failed to kill Harry more than once. He wants to prove to his DE's that he can get it done and that they were wrong to think that Harry was ever anything but a pain in the foot to LV. If someone else kills Harry when LV couldn't. That would not make him happy at all. LV has to be the one to do it, in his mind. It is a matter of pride for LV!!!!!!!!

HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 8, 2006 4:08 am (#2277 of 2969)

I think he's too selfish to be preoccupied with 'saving face' at this juncture, especially in the eyes of those he considers subordinates (i.e. DEs). His primary concern is to preserve himself and he sees Harry as a threat. I like Mattew's idea to make Harry's death his final Horcrux - feasible with regard to sparing Harry.

Pinky Prime - Jun 8, 2006 5:26 am (#2278 of 2969)
Edited Jun 8, 2006 6:32 am

I know I'm steering away from the Harry is a Horcrux theory. (I don't think he is a Horcrux though I think the Kneazle may know) but has anyone thought about Kreacher. Kreacher must have a few hiding spots and may have gotten the Lockett out of the trash. I don't believe Dung would have gotten to it before Kreacher.

The "Heavy" Lockett was a clue in two ways:

1) In the HBP it was mentioned the Lockett that was found near DD after he fell from the tower felt too light to be one described in the pensive scene.

2) If indeed R.A.B. is Sirius' brother he may have hidden it at his home, where a Heavier Lockett was found.

We know that Harry has used Kreacher in the pass to do his bidding. Harry has a right to question (and get an answer) from him any time he chooses. Harry may very well ask him about his relationship to Bella.

Although, I think it would be too dangerous for Harry to give him 'so-called time off' for good behavior so he can be the new double agent replacing Snape. Harry would have to realize that he needs all his resources to combat Voldemort and that includes Kreacher. After all Dobby for years must have known about the Diary and the magic associated with it. Or else why would Dobby try to warn Harry. I think he knew about more of the mischief and dangers of the diary than did Lucius Malfoy.

There was also the House Elf associated with Hufflepuff's cup Pensive scene maybe in HBP. Someone please direct me to the chapter. Lastly look at Barty Crouch Jr. and his House Elf Winky. Seems to me that they are all the keeper of secrets by tradition or Fidelity. Hence "The Fidelius Charm". Semantics I know!

S.P.E.W. may have other uses yet!

I have more on this but I can wait for responses. The elasticity in this thread is at the breaking point.

Weeny Owl - Jun 8, 2006 9:28 am (#2279 of 2969)

The chapter with the memory of the cup is: Chapter Twenty - Lord Voldemort's Request.

I'm sure Kreacher knows about the locket or he wouldn't have come into Harry's possession. How Harry gets information from him will be interesting since Kreacher will probably do all he can to thwart Harry.

This isn't the house-elf thread, but I don't see Kreacher being anything more than a source for Horcrux information, and certainly not a double agent.

Mattew Bates - Jun 8, 2006 10:01 am (#2280 of 2969)

Pinky Prime, you may be on to something. Maybe the presence of a named house elf is a literary clue from JKR to be on the lookout for a Horcrux. Shortly after we meet Dobby, we see the diary. Shortly after we meet Kreacher, we see the highly suspect locket. Hokey leads us to Hepzibah Smith and her soon-to-be-Horcrux cup. Perhaps we should be re-reading the scenes around Winky, because our only known Ravenclaw Death Eater, Barty Crouch Jr., is as good a lead as any for finding a Ravenclaw artifact made into a Horcrux.

HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 8, 2006 10:13 am (#2281 of 2969)

Great connection! Very observant of you both! It is definitely worth a reread! (Oh, that's just an excuse to read HP again!)

Pinky Prime - Jun 8, 2006 11:44 am (#2282 of 2969)
Edited Jun 8, 2006 1:03 pm

I wasn't referring to House Elf mannerisms but certain relationships they have to secrets like Horcruxes.

or it could also go into the - Things That Strike You As Odd Thread

Taken from the Lexicon - The Bestiary - House Elves

Kreacher tried to stop the members of the Order of the Phoenix from throwing away the many dark magic items with which 12 Grimmauld Place was filled, even going so far as to rescue some of them, which might be very important later (OP4, OP6, OP9, OP23).

My take on this meant the Lockett - which might be very important later.

Matthew Bates

Thank you for clarity and your connections with Hufflepuffs Cup and The Diary because I see a pattern with the House-elves too!

YES! Definitely worth a re-read...

virginiaelizabeth - Jun 8, 2006 6:14 pm (#2283 of 2969)

WOW!! How some of you see these connections I'll never know! That's actually kinda cool that they are connected like that. I'll have to go look up the part with Barty Crouch Jr. Come to think of it I might just need to read GoF again! Great ideas!!

Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 9, 2006 1:27 am (#2284 of 2969)

Matthew Bates - quick question. Where did you get the fact that Barty Crouch Jr was in Ravenclaw from?

nthdavid - Jun 9, 2006 7:35 am (#2285 of 2969)

Winky was sleeping off the beer in the room of requirement - where it is possible that Horcruxes abound.

Catherine - Jun 9, 2006 1:45 pm (#2286 of 2969)

I was on another thread, and thinking about why JKR showed Mundungus with the heirloom Black goblets. Really, that whole scene smelled... erm... funny to me. It certainly wasn't comic relief, and we already knew that Harry had inherited Sirius's possessions.

I went back and reread the scene in OoP about the goblets, which were engraved. Mundungus pointed out that the engraving could be removed.

I wonder if these scenes are here to suggest that it would have been possible to remove the engraving off of the locket in 12 GP? There's nothing to suggest that anyone noticed anything about the locket other than it could not be opened. Perhaps R.A.B. removed the engraving to hide it "in plain sight" more easily?

Magic Words - Jun 9, 2006 2:36 pm (#2287 of 2969)

Maybe RAB found the Hufflepuff cup and put the Black crest on it?????

Right, I need to calm down and stop jumping at shadows.....

haymoni - Jun 9, 2006 2:41 pm (#2288 of 2969)

It isn't any odder than any other "shadows" we've come up with!!

TomProffitt - Jun 9, 2006 4:24 pm (#2289 of 2969)

I am 800 posts behind on this thread and hoping for some help. The current happy Horcrux theory in our family is the introduction, or at least direct contact with, of one Horcrux per book. PS/SS - Riddle himself, CoS - the diary, PoA - currently unknown or unguessed, GoF - Nagini, OotP - the locket (the thing they couldn't open in Grimmauld Place), & HBP - the Ring that shriveled DD's hand.

Does this coincide with Forum thinking? If so, what is the PoA Horcrux? What is the expected 7th book Horcrux?

geauxtigers - Jun 9, 2006 4:44 pm (#2290 of 2969)

Wow great idea Catherine. It seems that it would be a simple matter via magic, right?

Tom, I never thought about that before that’s a good way to lay it out. Now if we could get JKR to tell us that we've seen all the Horcruxes to date, that would be helpful..... maybe one more attempt at Accioing book 7 will work... Accio book 7! Darn

TheSaint - Jun 9, 2006 5:54 pm (#2291 of 2969)

Vote from the Harry is a Horcrux crowd...

POA - Harry found his father in himself. Perhaps others are lurking... lol.

Okay, getting serious, time-turner... no. Dementor...no. Rat - definitely not. Lupin...nah. Crookshanks...nope. Firebolt...

Reads on.

TomProffitt - Jun 9, 2006 6:03 pm (#2292 of 2969)

I'm not taking credit for the theory, I got it from my niece's husband (I hope there is no such word as nephew-in-law, but there has to be an easier phrase). I may have suggested the thought that we've seen all of the Horcruxes to him, but he's a bit of an Internet surfer himself.

Harry is a Horcrux? Neat idea, but I don't think Jo thinks that way. (I know, I know, empiricists like me shouldn't use intuitive arguments).

(It's really weird for me when I use spell check and a world like "empiricist" checks out, okay.)

virginiaelizabeth - Jun 9, 2006 6:10 pm (#2293 of 2969)

Harry is a Horcrux? Neat idea, but I don't think Jo thinks that way.

Well Tom you can pull up a chair around the NAH(Not A Horcrux) campfire! There's lots of people here already!

I agree with you, I just don't think that Jo would do that, but I also realize that it's not really a reason at all! Oh well, this campfire's warmer and I'm too lazy to move!!

TomProffitt - Jun 9, 2006 6:14 pm (#2294 of 2969)
Edited Jun 9, 2006 7:14 pm

If Harry was a Horcrux would he have to kill himself before or after he killed Riddle? Neither way seems like it would work very well.

Solitaire - Jun 9, 2006 7:40 pm (#2295 of 2969)

Actually, wouldn't he have to destroy himself in order to destroy Riddle? If I understood Dumbledore correctly, all of the Horcruxes need to be destroyed before Riddle (who contains the last bit) can be destroyed. But how can he destroy Riddle if he is dead? I guess I need a chair around that NAH fire, too.

Solitaire

Magic Words - Jun 9, 2006 10:00 pm (#2296 of 2969)

He doesn't need to die! We have Dementors and a distinct lack of detail. Anything goes.

Am I allowed to refute "Jo doesn't think that way," or did saying it was a non-argument take it off the table? Because I think she thinks exactly that way. So far she's gone to great lengths to connect Harry and Voldemort in various ways. She's developing a bond between them that grows stronger every time they meet.

Godric's Hollow: marked as an equal

PS/SS: Harry meets Voldemort face to face and makes the decision to fight him. In effect, he accepts the prophecy.

CoS: Harry learns that he shares some of Voldemort's powers, a similar history, even appearance.

GoF (they don't meet in PoA): Voldemort takes Harry's blood; priori Incantatem

OotP: they share feelings and visions, culminating in the MoM possession incident

HBP: they don't meet

book 7: ?

How fitting would it be for the final link in the chain to be a Horcrux?

TomProffitt - Jun 10, 2006 3:21 am (#2297 of 2969)

"Am I allowed to refute "Jo doesn't think that way," --- Magic Words

Sure, I don't have a problem with that. What I would prefer would be examples of Harry's behavior being effected by this Horcrux? Ginny was attempting murder with less than six months in contact with the Horcrux. So, I would expect significant Riddle like behavior from Harry (he's been in contact with the Horcrux since he was a baby, right?)

If Harry's a Horcrux are there now seven to be destroyed or is it still six? Isn't Harry being a Horcrux a significant departure of the task that was so painstakingly explained to us in HBP? Having Harry be a Horcrux devalues large bits of the HBP plotline.

Having Harry be a Horcrux changes Harry significantly from the usual themes of "It's not who or what you are but the choices we make." and "What gives you strength is that power of love the Voldemort does not know." If Harry is a Horcrux those themes now mean, "It is about what you are." and "The power the prophecy says Voldemort knows not is that he accidentally made you a Horcrux."

Harry as a Horcrux may fit a subtler theme, but in the overt themes we see from Rowling that idea seems to undermine her carefully established plotline.

TheSaint - Jun 10, 2006 3:47 am (#2298 of 2969)

Ginny was not a Horcrux, she was not storing a piece of the soul... she was being possessed by one. Where you may expect significant Riddle like behavior, I do not.

I think one of the reasons you do not use a living thing for a Horcrux (especially a human) is the entities ability to affect the piece of soul you have placed in it. Harry would literally have been incubating this piece of Voldemort's soul in love, for years. I see the effects being reversed.

Having Harry as a Horcrux does not devalue the plot line, but makes the plotline all the more intriguing... will Harry have to die, will Hermione find a way to save him... will Trelawney hold a séance?

I again disagree with your argument regarding choices. Huge choice, go on with life, ignoring the Horcrux, as Voldie should when he finds out Harry is the only one left, or sacrifice yourself for the good of the others. I have already explained the power of love. This theory undermines nothing.

Alchemically, death is a necessary ingredient.

TomProffitt - Jun 10, 2006 5:13 am (#2299 of 2969)

TheSaint, I see where you are coming from, but I don't think we have sufficient common ground to really debate this. We would have to come to agreement on the Alchemical symbolism and allegory you refer to before we could carry this Horcrux debate further, and I do not ascribe to that symbolism. If I find the time I'll try to get to the Alchemy thread and continue the debate there, but I'm way behind on posts.

Magic Words - Jun 10, 2006 7:24 am (#2300 of 2969)

I'm not really sure where alchemy comes into this (quite open to explanations, but I find the Alchemy thread itself really intimidating), so I'll ignore that part.

Ginny showed Riddle-like behavior, not because she was in contact with a Horcrux, but because the diary had dual function as a Horcrux and a weapon; this is what tipped Dumbledore off that there could be more than one. It was the weapon function that influenced Ginny, and a normal Horcrux wouldn't have done it. On the other hand, I would consider Harry's desire to strike at Dumbledore in OotP distinctly Riddle-like behavior, possibly emanating from a Horcrux (not nearly as big as Ginny's actions, because there's no weapon involved).

I don't know whether Harry is an extra or one of the six, but I think it suggestive that JKR only told us five out of the six. She certainly never ruled Harry out. I think it's possible that Voldemort meant to make his fifth Horcrux with Harry's death and his sixth with Neville's. Harry himself became the fifth, and later Nagini became the sixth. It was shortly after that (OotP) when Voldemort realized Harry was a Horcrux and he had fulfilled his quota.

Tom, I'm not sure how any of this would devalue the plotline of HBP. If you mean the fact that they spent so much time and effort reconstructing the story of Voldemort's Horcruxes when there was one right in front of them the whole time, well, eventually that time and effort will pay off (with unexpected urgency) when Harry realizes the whole story. As Saint said, Harry and Voldemort still have the choice to go their separate ways (but the won't). And Harry's power can still be love; maybe he uses love to destroy his Horcrux. Maybe it's just his ability to sacrifice himself that Voldemort doesn't understand. (And I'm not saying that means he has to die - all it means is he has to be willing to take extreme risks.)

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 10, 2006 9:31 am (#2301 of 2969)

I don't think the alchemical references should be looked upon as intimidating, but rather as a guideline tool. Much like following a rope through a dimly lit cave. We can make assumptions based on it, but in the end, JKR can deviate from or follow it as closely as she deems necessary. So you can choose to use it or not - you can still find your way through the cave.

Ginny was possessed by an enchanted diary. The Horcrux fed off this and became stronger. I venture to guess that unless the Horcrux has some sort of enchantment on it, it will not interact, though I would not rule out a 'presence' of some sort, as Harry's experiences have shown.

I strongly agree with TheSaint in that the HAH theory opens to boundless possibilities. The most basic of which would be - who finds out about it first, Harry, Big V or someone else altogether? The decisions made with regard to how it should be handled would be very much in line with choices, TomP. The realization Harry had come to when he heard the prophecy (kill or be killed) comes to mind. He handled it fluidly and I see it as a precursor to finding out he is a Horcrux. I think he will step up to the plate as a true Gryffindor would. But what do I know - I'm no JKR. :inserthumblesmileyhere:

If Harry was a Horcrux would he have to kill himself before or after he killed Riddle? It seems to me as though you are already pondering one of the many questions that arise from such a situation, TomP.

a distinct lack of detail. Anything goes. As Magic Words so aptly put it. I do not think omitting Horcrux details was accidental. If it does not lend to exposing Harry's situation, why leave out such info? Learning about its specifics would certainly not help us find the Horcruxes in question (as in the locket), but it may explain strange occurrences that have taken place, (in a similar manner to side effects of potions, etc.) that we could attribute to Harry.

I think Big V's soul is divided into seven (unbeknownst to him) and DD's idea of the living Horcrux was wrong in believing it to be Nagini. I think Big V still thinks he needs to make that 7th one in using Harry, hence, Mattew's idea of his pursuit of Harry sits well with me.

Choices - Jun 10, 2006 9:46 am (#2302 of 2969)

Magic Words - "PS/SS: Harry meets Voldemort face to face and makes the decision to fight him. In effect, he accepts the prophecy."

I don't see how Harry can "accept the prophecy" when he has no clue that a prophecy even exists.

Magic Words - Jun 10, 2006 11:29 am (#2303 of 2969)
Edited Jun 10, 2006 12:31 pm

Choices, I mean he accepts what the prophecy says, even though he doesn't know at the time that a prophecy says it. The prophecy is only going to be fulfilled because both Voldemort and Harry are acting to bring it about by fighting each other. Harry's actions haven't changed. If we say he's accepted it now, which I believe he has (not because it's prophetic, but because it's true), he must also have accepted it (the truth of it, not its identity as a prophecy) as soon as he started fighting Voldemort. Did that make any sense?

Edit: Maybe a slightly clearer way of putting this. Was anyone really surprised to learn in OotP that Harry and Voldemort were destined to confront each other? No. We've known it ever since Voldemort was introduced as the antagonist of the series.

TomProffitt - Jun 10, 2006 3:55 pm (#2304 of 2969)

"It seems to me as though you are already pondering one of the many questions that arise from such a situation, TomP." --- HH

I posed my question a bit facetiously, a bit sarcastically, and probably a bit too rudely. However the question is really at the heart of what I was talking about in reference to the plot line statements. HBP firmly and in detail established what needs to be done in book 7. Should Harry himself be a Horcrux the story immediately deviates from the established plot line, it ceases to be find and destroy Horcruxes and switches to contemplating the meaning life. That is we go from the tangible to the intangible.

I think if we review the HBP scene in which DD describes how he recognized the Diary Horcrux I think we have to assume that the diary had the power to be a weapon because it was a Horcrux not because of an enchantment. DD was quite explicit about this, (I couldn't find the quote) but he said that the diary could not have possessed her and controlled her actions without having been a Horcrux. This is why I would expect to see a different personality for Harry through out his life not merely during those troubled times in OP.

I need to see much more conclusive information than what we have to even begin to accept the HAH theory.

TheSaint - Jun 10, 2006 4:21 pm (#2305 of 2969)

We would have to come to agreement on the Alchemical symbolism and allegory you refer to before we could carry this Horcrux debate further, and I do not ascribe to that symbolism. Tom Proffitt

(No need to...

I posed my question a bit facetiously, a bit sarcastically, and probably a bit too rudely. Tom Proffitt

Thanks but my life is too short to spend time this way...

Hollywand - Jun 11, 2006 11:36 am (#2306 of 2969)
Edited Jun 11, 2006 12:40 pm

Hey, Tom, it's certainly your prerogative not to ascribe to the alchemical imagery, but they are most identifiably there in the Potter series-----and I think you will find that they become a foundation that will be revealed in book seven. One example is the book Harry is reading called "The Quintessence: A Quest". This title is directly and completely related to alchemy.

Rowling has also, in recent interviews, given lots of information about the four houses being related to the Four Temperaments, which is also an alchemical concept.

Not that I want to get into a debate about alchemy with you, I don't. But one should not discount the ideas of others to the point of making them self-conscious about participating in the discussion, especially when the alchemical references are indeed not pulled out of thin air, but taken from the Potter text and from Rowing interviews the most reliable sources.

I recall a discussion last year regarding Severus Snape, and the fact the "books were not really about Snape" which got quite heated or intimidating for some. In fact, book six proved that the Potter story has quite a lot to do with Snape after all.

Choices - Jun 11, 2006 1:09 pm (#2307 of 2969)
Edited Jun 11, 2006 2:13 pm

I agree Hollywand - I do not know much about Alchemy, but I cannot deny that it plays a huge role in the Harry Potter books and it should not be discounted. To do so would be to limit your understanding of the story. That is fine if you want to be only a casual reader - to view the story in a less dimensional way, but for me, I want to understand what is happening on all levels and to do that, you must use Alchemy - I think it is essential to true understanding of the series. As I said, I do not profess to understand all about Alchemy, but I try to read the thread and even understanding a little bit about it has helped me to get a lot more out of the story.

Magic Words - Jun 11, 2006 1:56 pm (#2308 of 2969)

HBP firmly and in detail established what needs to be done in book 7. Should Harry himself be a Horcrux the story immediately deviates from the established plot line - TomProffitt

Exactly! Twists and turns and surprises! It'll be great!

I can't remember everything DD says about the diary. I vaguely recall something like what you were saying, TomProffitt, about Dumbledore realizing the diary had to be more than just a memory because memories don't start to think for themselves. But doesn't he also say that it was more than just a Horcrux, because Horcruxes aren't meant to interact like that? The ring, snake, etc. don't show any evidence of Riddle's memories. I think it was the combination of Horcrux and memory that allowed the diary to do what it did. A soul and a consciousness, if you will. If Harry is a Horcrux, he'd have the soul, but not the separate consciousness.

TomProffitt - Jun 11, 2006 2:46 pm (#2309 of 2969)

The reason I don't ascribe to the alchemy theory(or perhaps it might be better to say I don't put a great deal of emphasis on it) is two-fold.

First, we know (because Jo has told us) that she adapts things (such as magical incantations & the Philosophers Stone) to fit her story with out trying to be exact. That means we can never be certain if we try to out guess her, that we're using the same adaptation she is.

Secondly, while Jo's plots are in depth and in great detail they are generally rather simple. For example, the GoF has a lot depth to it, but each magical element is presented to us in previous books (such as the Polyjuice potion), plot elements put forward early (problems at Moody's house & at the World Cup), & new magic is explained relatively early (the four curses lesson).

Alchemy & HAH theories don't fit that pattern. We are never taught any alchemy theories to give the reader an insight. We receive no hints that a person could be or hold a Horcrux with out being affected by it.

It's not so much that there is no evidence against these things, it is more that the evidence for them is comparatively weak. I'm quite willing to accept an Alchemy parallel, but Jo usually provides us more obvious and mundane clues as to what is taking place. I have yet to satisfactorily interpret the clues involving the Unbreakable Vow, Snape's Loyalty, and Dumbledore's Death, but the clues have been presented to us.

Hollywand - Jun 11, 2006 6:18 pm (#2310 of 2969)

I agree with Choices' arguments stated above on reading the story at a literal level versus a metaphorical level. The Unbreakable Vow (conjunction), Dumbledore's death (decapitation) and the Horcruxes(hermetic sealing of spirits) all have alchemical metaphorical parallels which I have provided in parenthesis. I agree that Rowling's clues are straightforward, but they also have alchemical allegorical references that few lay readers would understand since alchemy is archaic intellectual thought. That's the beauty of her idea; she can code the whole series in a language very few people will understand until she reveals it in book seven. Betcha a plate of stoat sandwiches.

Mattew Bates - Jun 13, 2006 12:05 pm (#2311 of 2969)

RE: Phelim Mcintyre post #2284

Upon review of GoF, I can't say that Crouch is a Ravenclaw, but I certainly suspect it. Circumstantial evidence comes from Crouch Sr.'s knowledge of so many languages (houses tend to run in families), and his comment about Jr. getting 12 OWLs. Nothing definitive, though - just an assumption I'd mistaken as Canon.

Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 19, 2006 12:55 am (#2312 of 2969)

A thought, problem with Harry as a Horcrux. Harry's greatest weapon is love (according to Dumbledore (RIP)). Harry's love for Sirius made it impossible for Voldemort to possess Harry during the incident at the Ministry. Would this mean that if Harry had been a Horcrux his love for Sirius and others had destroyed the part of Voldemort's soul that was in him?

Soul Search - Jun 19, 2006 6:03 am (#2313 of 2969)

I have assumed that "love" would play a role in the final confrontation between Harry and Voldemort. What if "love" is the way to destroy Voldemort's Horcruxes, and Harry will have to defeat Voldemort in some other way?

HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 19, 2006 6:31 am (#2314 of 2969)

I kind of thought that Big V could not reside in Harry because it could not have two of him in Harry, but DD did not know, which is why he told Harry what he did with regard to Big V's recoiling. (Dungbomb helmet on.)

Magic Words - Jun 19, 2006 7:42 am (#2315 of 2969)

I think it has to be love that expelled Voldemort from Harry in OotP; to have it otherwise would undermine the theme of the series too much. What I disagree with is the assumption that just because Voldemort himself can't stand Harry, his Horcrux would be incapable of existing within Harry. Someone here (I think it was Saint) has suggested that Harry's love will somehow negate the Horcrux in him or even transform it into something that can be used against Voldemort.

geauxtigers - Jun 19, 2006 3:23 pm (#2316 of 2969)

Magic Words, that’s how I see it to. I think that his ability to love will save him from Voldemort, at the same time rid the world of Vold. I think that if he has a Horcrux in him, that love will take over after all these years and maybe the Horcrux is no longer evil. This is the only way I can see Harry being a Horcrux, or I should say the only way I can accept it.

cindysuewho45 - Jun 23, 2006 12:52 am (#2317 of 2969)

Hi all, just looking in to see what’s new. I have been thinking about the, Harry as a Horcrux. And know matter how I look at it, I just cannot see, Harry as a Horcrux. No not at all!!! I just read all the books over. And it just did not add up that way. I know that it can be fun to look at it in different ways. But the bottom line is Harry is not a Horcrux.

TheSaint - Jun 23, 2006 1:53 pm (#2318 of 2969)

Well, that settles it for me...how about the rest of you?

ROFL!

Magic Words - Jun 23, 2006 2:40 pm (#2319 of 2969)
Edited Jun 23, 2006 3:41 pm

Sorry, but I've been settled for a while and it'll take quite a bit to unsettle me at this point. All I can say is... bragging rights to the winner! Accio book 7!

...

Uh, book 7 will be with us in a year or so, please hold...

... *cues up classical music*

TheSaint - Jun 24, 2006 9:00 am (#2320 of 2969)

*files fingernails*

'Are you taking requests?'

HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 25, 2006 11:27 am (#2321 of 2969)

HAH. Too many indicators for me to abandon this theory.

nthdavid - Jun 26, 2006 11:01 pm (#2322 of 2969)

There are several problems with the new essay on HNH. In the first paragraph is the statement that Harry isn't the sixth Horcrux. This has nothing to do with whether Harry is one or not. LV was planning to create his sixth and last Horcrux the night he tried to kill Harry (HBP23). If Harry accidentally ended up with a piece of LV's soul, LV didn't appear to know about it.

Next paragraph. Where is the evidence that Harry would have to die to kill the piece of LV's soul? If the scar is the actual Horcrux, there should be a way to get rid of it (spells, potions, Dementors).

Later is an argument that LV could possess Harry at anytime but didn't. In OOTP24 and 37, Snape and DD both say that they were worried that LV would be able to possess Harry or at least access his thoughts and feelings, AFTER the incident with Arthur Weasley being bitten by the snake. Up to that point, LV didn't know about the connection. And there is definitely a connection, which is talked about in all of the books.

Again there is the statement that LV wouldn't have created a Horcrux in a living Harry, and again the premise of HAH is that it was not intentional. (It may have been LV's intention of making Harry's body the sixth Horcrux, but since Harry was still alive we have to assume that he didn't get the chance.)

Finally, Harry's soul wouldn't be the Horcrux, the scar would be. And since Harry's soul was apparently protected by his mother's death, there is no reason to assume that a piece of LV's soul in the scar would take over Harry's soul.

When I first read about Wormtail's magic hand in GOF I thought that it may have been a Horcrux to make up for the one destroyed in the diary. But the timing is wrong. I can't remember where but it is mentioned that LV was very angry when Lucius Malfoy told him the fate of the diary - and when the hand was created he had just seen Lucius for the first time in 13 years.

But there is still a chance that there was another Horcrux created after he found out. Which would bring the total number to 8... 1 - Peverell ring 2 - Riddle diary 3 - Slytherin locket 4 - Hufflepuff cup 5 - 'something' of Ravenclaw's 6 - Harry's scar 7 - Nagini 8 - the replacement for the diary (but then again, LV might just feel safe with all of the others out there)

And I think the locket was the one at the house of Black, Bellatrix probably has the Hufflepuff cup, the Ravenclaw something is probably at Hogwarts.

TheSaint - Jun 26, 2006 11:49 pm (#2323 of 2969)

The scar is the entry point I think... the piece of Voldemort's soul is in Harry along with his own soul. (See previously posted information on soul ride-alongs via Cabala)

I agree completely... well almost. I never understood why people would think Voldemort knew that Harry was a Horcrux. Scary still considering the origins of the word, Harry would be on the cross or torture/horror. No wonder Jo feels guilty!

I also still hold out that the cloak is the something of Ravenclaws...I know you all say it was given to DD before the murder... but Voldemort would not know that. He would still come with the plan of killing Harry and making his significant death into a Horcrux with the cloak (side-bar: wonders how one finds an invisibility cloak to start with... would be like the invisible Books of Invisibility)that has been passed down through James' family. No need to argue it... I have heard them all and I still believe. You can haha me when book 7 comes.

rambkowalczyk - Jun 27, 2006 3:02 am (#2324 of 2969)

I remember reading somewhere that the Mirror of Erised might be a Ravenclaw item because it had clawed feet. It seems to me that if Voldemort used it as a Horcrux it would leave a trace of magic that Dumbledore could detect.

Potter Ace - Jun 27, 2006 9:14 am (#2325 of 2969)

Is it Cannon that LV created a Horcrux to replace the destroyed diary? I do not recall any evidence that it's destruction was told to him or any of the other Death Eaters. Up until HBP the reading world was to assume that it was merely a "dark" object that Lucius Malfoy wanted to get rid of by giving it to Ginny.

My thinking is that even if LV knew of the destruction he would not replace it, the magic that is inherent in the number 7 would be lost which rests in the number created not the number you have.

If we take DD comments about which items are Horcruxes and assume that he was correct in his assumption that LV created a Horcrux within Nagini, and if we further assume that one was formed by accident with Harry's scar, there would be 7 Horcruxes and 1 remaining bit left in LV's body for total of 8, not a magical number. Either DD is wrong in his assumptions of which items are Horcrux or those of you who believe that Harry's scar is one are?

I've said it before, I can't see how a two-step spell can be completed without the second step. The spell to create the Horcrux was incomplete and the only "Body" in the room to complete it was an 11-month-old baby

Choices - Jun 27, 2006 9:26 am (#2326 of 2969)
Edited Jun 27, 2006 10:27 am

nthdavid - "But there is still a chance that there was another Horcrux created after he found out. Which would bring the total number to 8..."

We are specifically told that Tom Riddle/Voldemort thought 7 was a powerfully magical number, so why would he then create 8 Horcruxes? I just can't believe there are 8 Horcruxes. I have to stick with canon and believe there are only 7..... .actually only 6, with the seventh piece being in Voldemort himself.

haymoni - Jun 27, 2006 9:27 am (#2327 of 2969)
Edited Jun 27, 2006 10:28 am

Potter Ace - I agree - we have to know what is important to Voldy.

Is it always having 7 soulbits in the universe or was it having his soul torn into 7 parts? If he just wants 7 soulbits, he could keep making Horcruxes when he knows one has been destroyed. My guess is the soul torn into 7 parts.

As for your last comment, until we know exactly how the spell is done, we may never know.

I mean, Voldy has killed more than 6 people, so his soul is torn all over the place, but the pieces weren't actually captured in anyway.

You must have to do something either before the death or right after to capture the soul bit.

Unless Voldy wasn't interested in his soul being ripped into 7 equal pieces.

He may just have wanted 6 Horcruxes. In that case, it doesn't matter that he killed 20 or 100 people - there were soul bits flying around all over the place. He only chose to capture 6 of them.

If that's the case, then I am surprised that he isn't making more of them. Unless of course he was happy with his original plan and it just doesn't matter to him that some are destroyed.

Mattew Bates - Jun 27, 2006 9:31 am (#2328 of 2969)

"... the magic that is inherent in the number 7 would be lost which rests in the number created not the number you have."

Unfortunately, Potter Ace, we do not yet have canon evidence as to whether the number created or the number existing brings about the strength - if only Harry had taken Arithmancy! Somebody ask Hermione, please.

virginiaelizabeth - Jun 27, 2006 9:49 am (#2329 of 2969)
Edited Jun 27, 2006 10:52 am

You must have to do something either before the death or right after to capture the soul bit. haymoni

My theory on that is that when you murder, it tears your soul, then you perform the Horcrux spell and it severs the torn portion from the rest of your soul. Think of it as a piece of paper, you can tear it, without completely separating the pieces. With another rip, you can completely separate the two pieces. Yes you can sever the two pieces with just one full rip, but I don't think that it works that way for your soul.

We learn in the books that Horcruxes are one of the darkest and most evil things in the WW, and I don't think that everyone who has ever murdered, has wanted to create a Horcrux, so to me it makes sense that the soul is merely torn and if one wishes to make it into a Horcrux, then they would do the complicated spell to remove that torn section from their body. I never thought that the soul bits left the body on their own, otherwise there would be plenty of soulbits floating around in the world, and that doesn't seem to fit to me.

I can't remember where, but doesn't Dumbledore say something about how LV's soul is damaged beyond repair? If so then I would think that if you killed someone, your soul may be able to heal, whereas if you make a Horcrux, then it permanently damages your soul. This has been debated a lot on other threads, about whether or not your soul can heal after you've murdered, and I myself have gone back and forth on what I think. As of right now, I think that any kind of murder, whether it's and accident, a mercy killing, or evil murder, it tears you soul. The epitome of evil is making a Horcrux from that murder. In that case, your soul cannot heal, but I feel however that the first two types, where evil is not used, that the soul has the ability to repair itself somewhat, but never entirely.

JM2K! Hope this makes sense!

haymoni - Jun 27, 2006 10:42 am (#2330 of 2969)

No - I think that is good - it is a decision to "ruin" your soul.

Slughorn was shocked that Tom would think about doing it once, let alone more.

Magic Words - Jun 27, 2006 10:59 am (#2331 of 2969)

I agree that a huge part of what makes Horcruxes so evil is that they prevent any sort of healing process.

I've had another thought that might contribute to the before/after spell debate. I wonder if another part of a Horcrux's evil is that you have to go into the murder intending to make the Horcrux. Not that it has to be the only motive, but it has to be one of the motives. It makes it a little like what Firenze says about unicorn blood in PS/SS: you have a cursed life because "you have slain something pure and innocent to save yourself." Maybe this isn't the right thread, but to me this raises the question of what would happen if you found a unicorn dead of natural causes and drank its blood...

haymoni - Jun 27, 2006 11:43 am (#2332 of 2969)

Yes - Voldy wanted to kill Harry but it didn't work. Did his soul still tear?

I'm guessing yes, because that was his intent.

Solitaire - Jun 27, 2006 12:51 pm (#2333 of 2969)

It sounds like his soul was torn ... didn't he say he was ripped from his body? I guess I am assuming he was talking about his soul ... the essence of who he was.

Solitaire

Magic Words - Jun 27, 2006 1:00 pm (#2334 of 2969)

Solitaire, I'm sure a soul being ripped from a body (death) is different from a soul tearing itself in two (killing). I'm not sure whether casting an AK at Harry split his soul, but we know it was already freshly split from Lily and James' murders.

Choices - Jun 27, 2006 4:26 pm (#2335 of 2969)

I tend to think his soul did not tear since he did not kill Harry. He certainly intended to, but since no death occurred, I think the AK would be classified as a failure and thus no soul tear. The part about being ripped from his body refers to his main soul bit, in my opinion.

virginiaelizabeth - Jun 27, 2006 4:34 pm (#2336 of 2969)

That's what I think too Choices. His main soul was left after the rebounded AK hit him. The AK destroyed his body, instead of killing him, because he had Horcruxes. When you have no Horcrux, then the AK simply causes you to crumble to the ground, dead. But when you have a Horcrux, your body dies and you are left with nothing but your soul, and I guess your brain. That's confusing as well, if LV's body is gone, then what happened to his brain, where did that go? Do Horcruxes protect the brain as well?

Choices - Jun 27, 2006 4:43 pm (#2337 of 2969)

Gosh, that starts me to thinking about Dumbledore? Could he have a Horcrux and Snape only killed his body, but his spirit (soul bit) flew off (the phoenix Harry saw???) and so Dumbledore could come back? Snape fulfilled the Unbreakable Vow - he did kill Dumbledore, but actually he didn't. Is that way too farfetched?

geauxtigers - Jun 27, 2006 4:57 pm (#2338 of 2969)
Edited Jun 27, 2006 6:08 pm

Choices, do you really think DD would commit such a crime? The man who has spent his entire life fighting for what’s right and good? Fighting against EVIL? I don't think I would ever forgive JKR if she did that!

EDIT: Fair point, but I just don't think it could be. I don't think that DD was ever evil, I just don't think JKR would do that. I think one evil villain who has made Horcruxes is enough for one story. I was going to say something else, but I got distracted with the Astros game..... . maybe it'll come in a minute... Oh right okay I think there are plenty more ways for DD to come back without the use of Horcruxes. Ways that aren't evil. Perhaps he never died, which is what I think, but that is for another thread.

Choices - Jun 27, 2006 5:01 pm (#2339 of 2969)
Edited Jun 27, 2006 6:05 pm

But, he did fight and kill Grindelwald - was it murder? I don't know. We just know so little of Dumbledore's history - he has lived 150 years and there must be many things in his past we don't know about. Has he always been the wonderful, gentlemanly wizard that we know and love, or did he at some time in the past have a dark side or do dark deeds that we can only guess at? Some of the best people I know are the way they are because they have overcome some really terrible problems in their past. They are actually better people for what they have been through. Who knows what Dumbledore has been through in his past. Was the terrible memory he experienced in the cave after drinking the potion, his? Answers hopefully will be in book 7.

virginiaelizabeth - Jun 27, 2006 5:12 pm (#2340 of 2969)

Actually Choices, I have often wondered the same thing. Does he have a Horcrux? I would just answer, no simply because of how we see him today. I certainly think he is capable of doing it, and I always thought that he must have murdered Grindelwald. Well that would tear his soul. Maybe it's one of those things where he had to learn from his mistake. I quite agree that we don't really know anything about his past or what he was capable of so I don't think we could completely shoot that theory down. The biggest problem I have with it is that there is almost no evidence in canon to support it. I tend to think that he wouldn't but we won't know for sure until book 7, so I guess I sorta agree and disagree. If that makes any sense at all.

Magic Words - Jun 27, 2006 5:23 pm (#2341 of 2969)

While I could accept Dumbledore making mistakes (such as a Horcrux) in his past, I don't believe JKR would use a Horcrux as a device to bring him back. If he ever did something so evil, he wouldn't take advantage of it now. I think he would have destroyed it himself whenever he had his epiphany.

Choices - Jun 27, 2006 5:24 pm (#2342 of 2969)

I don't want to believe he has a Horcrux either, but I have to say it is possible. I wouldn't be surprised at anything JKR might pull out of her hat.

TheSaint - Jun 27, 2006 9:17 pm (#2343 of 2969)
Edited Jun 27, 2006 10:17 pm

I will state this again... Harry being a Horcrux would be an accident. So those of you counting the number of Horcruxes and getting 8...Voldie would not know Harry is a Horcrux, so he would not be counting him.

I am not so sure about DD having a Horcrux as he seems to have no problem with 'the next big adventure' and I can't picture him wanting or needing one.

I did wonder about Harry though...I had to wonder if that 'gleam in DD's eye' had to do with some form of a Horcrux created for Harry when Voldie took his blood. If Harry is a Horcrux and he is holding part of Voldie 's soul, I find it interesting that Voldie is now holding part of Harry's body. Body and soul... they do belong together.

Solitaire - Jun 27, 2006 9:18 pm (#2344 of 2969)
Edited Jun 27, 2006 10:19 pm

I do not think Dumbledore would make a Horcrux simply because he did not fear death. He may have killed Grindelwald, but surely not everyone who kills makes Horcruxes. I'm in the no camp on this one.

Choices, I wonder ... since Harry was not actually killed by Voldemort's AK, then would his soul have split at that time? If not, then how could Harry be a Horcrux? On the other hand, is it only the intent to kill that matters?

Solitaire

Edit: Sometimes I worry that we are starting to see Horcruxes everywhere, just as some saw life debts every time we turned around when that issue first surfaced.

Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 28, 2006 3:29 am (#2345 of 2969)

Question - what is murder? To create a Horcrux would you have to use Avada Kedavra or a similar dark spell. Would a stunning spell that caused someone to fall to their death be adequate? Is intent the issue? So if you knew that using a stunning spell would send someone falling to their death or, because of a weak heart would kill them would this be the same as using an AK? To use the US idea would a Horcrux only be makeable with first-degree murder? If it was (for us Brits) manslaughter would that be enough?

DD could easily have killed Grindelwald in self-defence or as a last resort, as I'm sure DD would have wanted to see Grindelwald brought to justice for his crimes. The intent being justice not power I doubt DD would have made a Horcrux.

haymoni - Jun 28, 2006 4:28 am (#2346 of 2969)

Dumbledore doesn't have to make a Horcrux because he fears death.

I had suggested Dumbledore having a Horcrux right after Book 6 came out. I was crushed by the weight of the dung bombs thrown at me!

His brush with Grindelwald may have alerted him to the fact that not every wizard or witch could have fought this evil wizard and triumphed.

If he did kill Grindelwald and his soul was torn, he may have thought of a way to preserve himself just in case.

He may have created a Horcrux to HELP, not for selfish reasons.

Although, Minerva's comments in Book 1 - "you are too noble to use them." makes me think that he wouldn't.

I still think Hagrid is the key to Dumbledore - "I trust him with my life."

Soul Search - Jun 28, 2006 6:27 am (#2347 of 2969)
Edited Jun 28, 2006 7:28 am

haymoni,

I, too, have thought Dumbledore's "I would trust Hagrid with my life" statement a bit suspicious. It just sounded a bit over-dramatic on my reading SS, until HBP. Then it sounded suspicious.

Until HBP, there were no situations where Dumbledore might have so trusted Hagrid. Then, in HBP, Hagrid takes care of Dumbledore's body and carries it to the tomb. Hmmm...

The One - Jun 28, 2006 7:36 am (#2348 of 2969)

Remember: Horcruxes are so evil that even the mention of the is banned at Hogwarts.

The AK curse is not classified information.

The Horcrux seems to be more or less the ultimate evil. So no, even if Dumbledore did kill someone at some stage in his struggle, him having made a Horcrux is next to impossible.

And of course, why would he. Dumbledore considers the quest for immortality to be harmful in itself.

I do wonder of Snape has a Horcrux somewhere. I have said it before, but I will repeat it: I wonder if Snape will end up on the good side, be killed, but not die properly due to a Horcrux.

And then the final reconciliation between Snape and Harry will be Harry destroying Snape's Horcrux to allow him to die properly.

The fact that Snape is so incredible nasty may then be simply because his soul is damaged from his time as a DE.

Mattew Bates - Jun 28, 2006 7:42 am (#2349 of 2969)

I can see Dumbledore having a rebellious streak when he was young - he seems willing enough to encourage Harry's rule breaking. I can even see Dumbledore having killed someone in his wayward youth, as Harry almost did with Sectumsempra. I simply cannot see someone who views death as "the next great adventure" clinging tooth & nail to this life, however. No matter the crimes of his youth, no matter how he defeated Grindelwald, I cannot see the Dumbledore portrayed to us in the books as having ever been capable of willfully causing irreparable damage to his soul by creating a Horcrux.

haymoni - Jun 28, 2006 10:28 am (#2350 of 2969)

I wonder if you can put the soul bit back.

If Dumbledore wants to keep a soul bit just in case the Wizarding World needs him around a bit longer, but finds out that they don't really need him (because of Harry or some other reason) or decides he is now ready for that next adventure, he could put the soul bit back.

He'd still be torn but his soul would all be there.

I think a Horcrux Tutorial is in order.

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TheSaint - Jun 28, 2006 5:24 pm (#2351 of 2969)
Edited Jun 28, 2006 6:26 pm

'The fact that Snape is so incredible nasty may then be simply because his soul is damaged from his time as a DE. ' The One

Excellent thought.

Mrs Brisbee - Jun 29, 2006 9:00 am (#2352 of 2969)
Edited Jun 29, 2006 10:00 am

Dumbledore considers the quest for immortality to be harmful in itself. --The One

Right. There's a big danger in starting to think yourself so indispensable that those pesky rules against mangling your soul just shouldn't apply to you, because how will all those lesser beings manage without you around. No, I don't think Dumbledore went that route. His true immortality lies in leaving a lasting, worthwhile legacy, by having made an impact with his intelligence and morality on those who survive him.

haymoni - Jun 29, 2006 9:06 am (#2353 of 2969)

That version works for me too!

Choices - Jun 29, 2006 10:40 am (#2354 of 2969)

Solitaire - "Choices, I wonder ... since Harry was not actually killed by Voldemort's AK, then would his soul have split at that time? If not, then how could Harry be a Horcrux? On the other hand, is it only the intent to kill that matters?"

I think it is the fact that Voldemort killed James first and then Lily - so that would be two splits in his soul and the people who hold to the "Harry is a Horcrux" (I'm not one of them) theory seem to think that one of those soul bits could have gone into Harry accidentally. I don't think intent counts - I think it is a successful murder that splits the soul and only that can do it. I am also of the opinion that it is the incantation that removes the soul bit from the body after the murder, and it is then placed into the object chosen to be the Horcrux. It can't happen accidentally or be done before the murder (that's just how I see it).

Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 29, 2006 10:42 am (#2355 of 2969)
Edited Jun 29, 2006 1:00 pm

If I may be permitted to ask a question a thought occurred to me concerning the Horcruxes that have been destroyed, it appears given the condition of Dumbledore's hand that the Horcrux within the ring was harder to destroy than the Horcrux contained within the pages of the diary. Could this indicate that as Voldemort's power and knowledge of the dark arts grew that the complexity of the spells and enchantments protecting the Horcruxes also increased? I believe the diary was the simplest to destroy because, Voldemort had not perfected the arts necessary to safeguard the items that he eventually chose to become Horcruxes.

I edited the post to correct some grammatical errors.

geauxtigers - Jun 29, 2006 10:51 am (#2356 of 2969)

I am also of the opinion that it is the incantation that removes the soul bit from the body after the murder, and it is then placed into the object chosen to be the Horcrux. It can't happen accidentally or be done before the murder (that's just how I see it). I agree Choices

Nathan, that is a good thought, I sure hope not just for Harry's sake. I think it’s probably true though... I'll think it over though...

haymoni - Jun 29, 2006 10:54 am (#2357 of 2969)

Nathan - that sounds good, but I guess it depends on when Voldy made the ring a Horcrux.

If he did it right after killing his dad, I'm guessing the protections weren't much better than the diary.

Unless the poison of the basilisk was just too strong.

Who would have thought that someone would try to destroy the diary with a basilisk fang??

Weeny Owl - Jun 29, 2006 2:04 pm (#2358 of 2969)

This is deviating from the current subject a bit, but in regards to locating the remaining Horcruxes, and with the fate of Narcissa, Lucius, and Draco up in the air for the moment, the trio could try and check out Malfoy Manor.

I thought of this because I was rereading CoS and came to the part where Lucius was in Dumbledore's office. Much of that just seemed to be Lucius highly offended that Dumbledore was back in the school, and also the bit with Dobby, but Dumbledore did say something quite interesting. He said that no more of Voldemort's school things better find their way into innocent hands.

I could picture one of the Malfoys helping the trio, albeit reluctantly, if Voldemort were to kill one of them. Even if none died, I could still see the trio searching Malfoy Manor, especially if they had a conversation around Dobby and he remembered seeing something there.

Soul Search - Jun 30, 2006 7:51 am (#2359 of 2969)

Interesting pickup, Weeny Owl.

I think, though, that a Horcrux at Malfoy manor would be combined with a change of heart by Draco and/or Narcissa.

Anna L. Black - Jun 30, 2006 8:50 am (#2360 of 2969)

While I was reading what everybody wrote about the possibility of Dumbledore having a Horcrux, a thought came up -

We are told that Horcruxes were a banned subject at Hogwarts, and that "Dumbledore is particularly fierce about it"*. And then there's:

"'Just because a wizard doesn't use Dark magic, doesn't mean he can't, Miss Pennyfeather,' snapped Professor Binns. 'I repeat, if the likes of Dumbledore-'" and he's interrupted - this quote implies Dumbledore knows Dark Magic.

Also, Dumbledore was the DADA teacher.

All that brought together made me think: What if Dumbledore made a Horcrux long long ago, but afterwards understood just how horrible that was, repented, and became the Wizarding World's greatest Good Wizard (and a DADA teacher, and an anti-Horcrux-er)?

*** Runs away from a rain of Dungbombs ***

** I'm not sure the quote is right, but I can't find my HBP book!! ::horrified::

Papa Bear - Jun 30, 2006 9:08 am (#2361 of 2969)

I don't believe DD has a Horcrux. He told Draco that he could make him and his mom appear dead to the world and thus protect them both. DD may have used these same ways for himself.

Second, As far as Harry being a Horcrux or having one in him. in OoP, before the MOM fight, DD had Harry in his office and had one of his little instruments show him something about Harry. It showed a smoky snake, then DD said, "but in essence, two" and the Smokey snake turned into two inter-twined snakes, hinting that there was a snake or part there of in Harry. In the MOM sequence Harry described being wrapped in the snake and joined by pain. the pain in the scar. After Harry was released by the snake all pain ceased and DD was leaning over him looking at him directly in the eyes and asking if he was ok. Was DD checking to see if the snake was totally gone? There has been no evidence of the snake (hurting scar) since that episode, and DD has stayed in constant contact with Harry since then. Just some thoughts on the matter.

Papa Bear - Jun 30, 2006 9:22 am (#2362 of 2969)

Along these same lines. Remember DD's statement in CoS, "I will never really be gone as long as there are those who are loyal to me still at Hogwarts" This seems to me mentioned more than once in the last few books.

Mattew Bates - Jun 30, 2006 9:37 am (#2363 of 2969)

Anna L. Black, I thought Dumbledore taught Transfiguration. Also, Horcruxes were a banned subject under Dippet - teaching dark arts at all is what Dumbledore is particularly fierce about, as I recall. As far as Dumbledore knowing Dark Arts, there is a world of difference between knowledge, practice, and immersion. If a Horcrux is truly the blackest of the Dark Arts, making one would be at the "immersion" end of the pool, which most Death Eaters don't descend to. Also, I think truly repenting of having created a Horcrux would involve destroying it.

Choices - Jun 30, 2006 9:45 am (#2364 of 2969)
Edited Jun 30, 2006 11:58 am

Anna Black - "We are told that Horcruxes were a banned subject at Hogwarts, and that "Dumbledore is particularly fierce about it"*. And then there's: "'Just because a wizard doesn't use Dark magic, doesn't mean he can't, Miss Pennyfeather,' snapped Professor Binns. 'I repeat, if the likes of Dumbledore-'" and he's interrupted - this quote implies Dumbledore knows Dark Magic. Also, Dumbledore was the DADA teacher."

Anna, I was thinking of that very line about Dumbledore being fierce about the Horcrux subject - seems suspicious to me. I see him having one as a possibility. Just one correction - Dumbledore was not the DADA teacher, he taught Transfiguration and was replaced by McGonagall when he became Headmaster. :-)

Mattew, it is Horcruxes in particular that Dumbledore is "fierce" about - Slughorn tells Tom - "People wouldn't like to think we've been chatting about Horcruxes. It's a banned subject at Hogwarts, you know----Dumbledore's particularly fierce about it..... "

Anna L. Black - Jun 30, 2006 9:48 am (#2365 of 2969)

Transfiguration teacher, of course. How could I forget that? ::banging head on table::

Choices - Jun 30, 2006 9:58 am (#2366 of 2969)
Edited Jun 30, 2006 10:59 am

Papa Bear - "It showed a Smokey snake, then DD said, "but in essence, two" and the Smokey snake turned into two inter-twined snakes, hinting that there was a snake or part there of in Harry."

Actually, first a single snake came out of the instrument and Dumbledore acknowledged it and then asked "but in essence divided?" and the snake split into two snakes to indicate that they (Voldemort and Harry) were, indeed, divided..... . they had not become one - they were/are two separate entities. (just my take on it)

Mattew Bates - Jun 30, 2006 10:25 am (#2367 of 2969)
Edited Jun 30, 2006 11:25 am

I stand corrected, Choices. Food for thought, though - this does seem to indicate that Dumbledore had some control over the DADA curriculum while he was just the Transfiguration teacher. Hmm...

Papa Bear - Jun 30, 2006 11:40 am (#2368 of 2969)

Choices, I guess that on this point we must agree to not agree.

I believe it showed that it was the same snake but split to become two, one part in each. This is why Harry mentioned to Sirius that he felt the snake rise, that he was the snake, when he and DD made eye contact before he was whisked away by the portkey in DD's office in OoP.

Solitaire - Jun 30, 2006 11:46 am (#2369 of 2969)

I read that differently. I thought "in essence divided" referred to Voldemort and the snake being two separate entities, with Harry having made an incursion into the mind of Voldemort, who was at that time inhabiting the snake. I don't know ... I do not always understand exactly what she means.

Solitaire

virginiaelizabeth - Jun 30, 2006 12:04 pm (#2370 of 2969)

I never understood it! But I like what Soli said, that makes sense to me.

Madame Pomfrey - Jun 30, 2006 1:16 pm (#2371 of 2969)

I thought "In essence divided" meant Harry was not being possessed by Voldemort. Two separate entities.

Papa Bear - Jun 30, 2006 2:13 pm (#2372 of 2969)

The Smokey snake divided into two intertwined snakes when DD said the phrase "but in essence, divided?" meaning two snakes. One in LV the other I believe, in Harry. Harry wasn't possessed by LV at this time but was in his mind. How? Unless he obtain a part of LV during the failed AK curse (Horcrux or no) and it was stated in SS that Harry had a part of LV in him.

Pamzter - Jun 30, 2006 7:04 pm (#2373 of 2969)

If this has been discussed before, please direct me to it, but ... I've been wondering why Voldy has been so dramatic with hiding the locket and the ring but just gave the diary to Lucius and said, "Here, keep this for me." Are the other Horcruxes hidden away Indiana Jones style or just thrown about?

TheSaint - Jun 30, 2006 8:23 pm (#2374 of 2969)

Actually... it may be that he gave the diary to Bella, as she says something in Spinner's End about being entrusted with something special but Lucius taking it...paraphrasing... no book.

Pamzter - Jun 30, 2006 9:23 pm (#2375 of 2969)

I've never really been interested in Horcruxes, but for some reason they're on my mind tonight.

Here's a new thought (well, for me at least). Is it possible that Wormtail's silver hand is a new LV Horcrux created from the death of Cedric? (I know Wormtail technically killed Ced, but everyone credits LV.)

Maybe I only find the possibility interesting because it's so late *yawn* but I think I'll post this over on the Peter Pettigrew thread as well.

virginiaelizabeth - Jun 30, 2006 10:15 pm (#2376 of 2969)

I've been wondering why Voldy has been so dramatic with hiding the locket and the ring but just gave the diary to Lucius Pam

I think Voldy gave it to Lucius telling him that it would reopen the chamber of Secrets, and that he should plant it on a Hogwarts student. It wasn't supposed to be well protected, because LV wanted it to be read. That was my take on it any way.

As for the Wormtail's hand, it can't be a Horcrux, because like you said, it LV didn't technically kill Cedric. He didn't do the actual killing so his soul couldn't have split and he wouldn’t have been able to make a Horcrux without the key ingredient-murder.

Weeny Owl - Jun 30, 2006 10:46 pm (#2377 of 2969)

I agree with what you said, Virginia, about Voldemort not wanting the diary to be hidden because it was supposed to be used later.

He wouldn't have to treat all of his Horcruxes the same way since he has so many.

I've long thought that Voldemort planned on taking over Hogwarts. It goes back to something Hagrid said in PS/SS about Voldemort not being strong enough to take on Hogwarts, and I wondered at the time if that was the plan but for later, after he had taken care of Harry.

I also thought it even more after finding out that Snape had been a Death Eater. I also thought it was Voldemort's idea to have Snape there so that, assuming Snape is actually loyal to him and not Dumbledore, Voldemort would have an inside man.

Between Snape and having a Horcrux that could unleash the basilisk, Voldemort might have tried to get his hands on Hogwarts, and if that was his plan, his anger with Lucius isn't a surprise.

Solitaire - Jul 1, 2006 3:12 am (#2378 of 2969)
Edited Jul 1, 2006 4:14 am

Lucius chose to plant the Diary on Ginny with the intent of blackening the reputation of Arthur Weasley and the Weasley family in the Wizarding World. Had he chosen differently--chosen a student whose family were not so intimately involved with Harry--is it possible that all aspects of Voldemort's plan would have succeeded? If Lucius had given the Diary to a student the Trio didn't know so well--a kid from Slytherin or one of the other houses, for example, who didn't have a crush on Harry--would the Diary ever have fallen into Harry's hands? It seems a long shot to me. After all, wasn't it Ginny who enlightened Riddle about who Harry was?

If Harry had not known about the Diary and what it could do, he probably would not have bothered puncturing it with the Basilisk fang, even if he had gone into the Chamber to save the other student. Heck, he might not even have known that it existed, unless Riddle told him about it and how he had used it on the student. But Harry's personal experience with the Diary and young Tom Riddle's lies about Hagrid gave him some extra incentive to destroy it.

If Voldemort has arrived at this same conclusion, he might feel that the Diary was destroyed because of Lucius' personal and petty grievances and resentments against Arthur. Just a thought ...

Solitaire

Choices - Jul 1, 2006 9:38 am (#2379 of 2969)
Edited Jul 1, 2006 10:41 am

This careless attitude about the diary Horcrux is exactly what made Dumbledore believe that Voldemort was planning to make (or already had made) more Horcruxes.

"But don't you see, Harry, that if he intended the diary to be passed to, or planted on, some future Hogwarts student, he was being remarkably blasé' about that precious fragment of his soul concealed within it. The point of a Horcrux is, as Professor Slughorn explained, to keep part of the self-hidden and safe, not to fling it into somebody else's path and run the risk that they might destroy it----as indeed happened. That particular fragment of soul is no more; you saw to that.

"The careless way in which Voldemort regarded this Horcrux seemed most ominous to me. It suggested that he must have made---or been planning to make---more Horcruxes, so that the loss of his first would not be so detrimental. I did not wish to believe it, but nothing else seemed to make sense."

The very fact that a Horcrux is to be hidden and kept safe makes me believe that he would not make a Horcrux of Wormtail's silver hand. Nor do I think that Cedric's death was important enough to make a Horcrux from it. He hadn't even planned on Cedric showing up that night in the graveyard.

Pamzter - Jul 1, 2006 11:17 am (#2380 of 2969)

Then I'm still wondering what LV's purpose was for giving it to Wormtail, how it fits his plans.

Choices - Jul 1, 2006 11:58 am (#2381 of 2969)
Edited Jul 1, 2006 12:59 pm

I just think the hand was a big show - Voldemort was on a God-trip. Wormtail gave his living flesh so Voldemort could be reborn - Wormtail would probably be pretty worthless to Voldemort with only one hand - Voldemort wanted to impress his DE's with his "look what your gracious master can give you" act, so he created the hand for Wormtail. Wormtail would be more useful with it, the DE's are shown how merciful Voldemort is with those who please him - it was all a show. I do think that hand will come back to haunt Voldemort, as it may play some role in his downfall.

Pamzter - Jul 1, 2006 12:50 pm (#2382 of 2969)

I guess it's possible but I just don't see LV being a much of a showman, and I don't recall any of the DE's being particularly impressed with it.

Weeny Owl - Jul 1, 2006 2:42 pm (#2383 of 2969)

Voldemort seems to me to be the ultimate showman.

He taunts Harry, puts on a show for the Death Eaters, does the thing with Wormtail's hand, and then brags about how he's going to kill Harry so that no one will question who is more powerful. That's total showmanship, really.

Pamzter - Jul 1, 2006 3:21 pm (#2384 of 2969)

I don't see showmanship to it at all. To me a showman is someone who is trying to establish credibility with impressive but ultimately hollow displays. LV doesn't need to do that, everyone knows exactly what he can do, the DEs are already shaking in their boots, and nothing he does has any pretension about it at all.

virginiaelizabeth - Jul 1, 2006 4:13 pm (#2385 of 2969)

I have to agree with Weeny/Jill here. If he wasn't a showy person, then he wouldn't even give Harry the chance to fight him, or save his 16-year-old self in a diary to prove he was Slytherin's heir. He wants there to be no doubt in anyone’s mind, that he is the most powerful wizards ever. I also think that he did the hand more for show than because he cared about Wormtail.

Madame Pomfrey - Jul 1, 2006 4:24 pm (#2386 of 2969)
Edited Jul 1, 2006 5:27 pm

I have to agree with Weeny. Lord Voldemort seems to make a show of everything he does, trying to prove beyond anyone’s doubt that he is the greatest wizard of all time. As of now, he has rid himself of the only one he ever feared-Dumbledore, by having him killed by a lesser wizard, proving(in LV eyes) that Dumbledore was weak. He also wants to do away with Harry personally to assure his DE that Harry (the boy who lived) is nobody. He already attempted this once in the graveyard with his DE watching. If he wasn't a showman he would have tried to kill Harry before the arrival of his Début he wanted his little audience.

Also I think the DE are very impressed with Lord Voldemort. All seem to be competing to gain the title "Most Loyal Servant" in which that person would be rewarded above all. Rewards? I am thinking silver hands or magical things that only Voldemort can provide.

Oops, this is the Horcrux thread... The vessels in which he keeps his Horcruxes are "trophy's" Another way he shows off.

Choices - Jul 1, 2006 4:39 pm (#2387 of 2969)

Voldemort was definitely putting on quite a show in the graveyard - REBIRTH..... starring the Dark Lord. A command performance - he commanded the DE's to come and most of them did show up. He had a captive audience with Harry there. It had all the dramatic elements - death, pain, intrigue, fear, blood, secret revelations, suspense, fireworks. Sounds like quite a production to me.

TheSaint - Jul 1, 2006 4:49 pm (#2388 of 2969)

How can anyone think he isn't a show off... if he is not, what was that whole scene about Harry bowing to death about then?

Madame Pomfrey - Jul 1, 2006 5:25 pm (#2389 of 2969)

LoL! Very good Choices! I forgot about Harry having to bow. Shame on me.

Weeny Owl - Jul 1, 2006 7:18 pm (#2390 of 2969)

He already attempted this once in the graveyard with his DE watching. If he wasn't a showman he would have tried to kill Harry before the arrival of his Début he wanted his little audience.

That's an excellent point. He could have given Wormtail the hand, killed Harry, and then called the Death Eaters to see the results, but instead he made a huge production of it.

Good catch on the bow, Choices. I had forgotten that part.

(Aside to virginiaelizabeth: Weeny/Jill? That just totally cracks me up.)

:::wandering off chuckling:::

TheSaint - Jul 1, 2006 8:04 pm (#2391 of 2969)

*looks confused*

virginiaelizabeth - Jul 1, 2006 8:47 pm (#2392 of 2969)

(Aside to virginiaelizabeth: Weeny/Jill? That just totally cracks me up.)

Wait it is Jill right? BTW like your new avatar!

Back to Horcruxes?

Weeny Owl - Jul 2, 2006 12:10 am (#2393 of 2969)

I've been pondering what would have happened in the Chamber of Secrets if Tom had won.

I do think that if Ginny had died and Tom Riddle had become solid, Voldemort would have merged his spirit with Tom Riddle's body. It wouldn't be possession, at least not in the strictest sense, since they would be the same person except earlier and later versions. I just don't see that inhabiting your old body would affect it the way inhabiting another one would.

(Aside to virginiaelizabeth: Yes, it is Jill, but when I read "Weeny/Jill," it sounded funny in my mind and I just had to chuckle. Thanks for the compliments on the avatar, but it isn't new... it's the one I used last year. I just haven't had time to make a new one for this year's Fourth of July.)

TwinklingBlueEyes - Jul 2, 2006 5:38 am (#2394 of 2969)

"looks confused"

No confusion here, just looks like Choices has become a Saint...

Hmm, Horcruxes, yep, that's the subject.

...toddles off LMAO...

Solitaire - Jul 2, 2006 8:25 am (#2395 of 2969)

If he wasn't a showman he would have tried to kill Harry before the arrival of his DE, but he wanted his little audience.

Absolutely ... the desire for an audience cost him his chance in the graveyard. It also put him in a position of showing fear before the DEs. (Didn't Harry say Voldemort seemed afraid when they were locked in the Priori Incantatem, and all of the shadows were prowling around and hissing at him?)

Solitaire

Choices - Jul 2, 2006 8:49 am (#2396 of 2969)

Let's give credit where credit is due - it was The Saint that noted the part about Harry bowing, not me. Thanks for adding your comment about the bow, Saint.

Weeny Owl - Jul 2, 2006 9:05 am (#2397 of 2969)

Yes, he did say that, Solitaire. For someone who claims to be the greatest sorcerer ever, he's sure inept at times... fortunately!

:::smacking self with wing::: That was an excellent point, The Saint. Sorry for not giving you the credit.

HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 2, 2006 2:32 pm (#2398 of 2969)
Edited Jul 2, 2006 3:33 pm

I'd gotten behind on the posts on this thread (finally caught up) and would like to backtrack just a bit regarding the DD/Horcrux idea: I cannot imagine DD sitting down and talking to Flamel about destroying the stone which keeps him alive, knowing full well he has a Horcrux tucked away somewhere. Seems very un-DD-esque to me.

Choices - Jul 2, 2006 4:02 pm (#2399 of 2969)
Edited Jul 2, 2006 5:02 pm

Hmmmm, Dumbledore asked Flamel and his wife to sacrifice their lives to keep the stone from Voldemort. I really had not thought about it in that way before - I mean I guess I knew, but just had never put it into words. That's two more lives laid down to stop Voldemort. I hope in the end, all those lives will not have been lost in vain.

Magic Words - Jul 2, 2006 8:20 pm (#2400 of 2969)

I wouldn't say it was to stop Voldemort, at least entirely. It seemed to me that Dumbledore's "little chat" with Nicholas Flamel probably started with the risk the stone could pose in the wrong hands, but in the end they decided they shouldn't really be using it at all. I guess it was those comments Dumbledore made about humans having the tendency to choose the things that were worst for them (money and immortality). I got the impression he'd simply persuaded Flamel to his point of view about how death shouldn't be feared. More of an idealistic than a pragmatic decision, although it was both.

Oh, yes, Horcruxes. Dumbledore doesn't have one. He may very well have made one in the past; I'll be the first to admit we know nothing about his past. But in the present, he would not use it. He would have destroyed it himself long ago. Voldemort has powers he will never have, because he's too noble to use them. PS/SS

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Solitaire - Jul 2, 2006 11:01 pm (#2401 of 2969)

Voldemort has powers he will never have, because he's too noble to use them.

Is it that Dumbledore doesn't have them ... or that he doesn't use them? There is a difference.

Solitaire

Weeny Owl - Jul 2, 2006 11:19 pm (#2402 of 2969)

If Dumbledore is so noble, he would NEVER make something so evil as a Horcrux.

To me a Horcrux is something as horrible as what history shows people can do to other people... read about the Romans or the Nazis and what they did, and that is basically how I view a Horcrux.

I truly don't see a Horcrux being made accidentally or with what we've already discussed as a mercy killing. I believe that a Horcrux has to be made from a deliberate-and-with-malice-aforethought murder.

I don't see Voldemort accidentally making Harry or his scar a Horcrux. I don't see Dumbledore ever making a Horcrux, and if he did make one, then he's as bad as Voldemort.

I'm not saying Dumbledore couldn't kill someone if he had to, such as in the case of defending students, but it wouldn't be premeditated, and he would never encase his soul in something so as to become immortal. That just is not Dumbledore.

HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 3, 2006 4:22 am (#2403 of 2969)
Edited Jul 3, 2006 5:22 am

My point was that I cannot see DD asking anyone to do something he, himself would not do. That is the feeling I get from this character. And I agree that the very act of creating a Horcrux - even if it was from a murder that had to be committed (as with Grindelwald), it is still a heinous act. Creating a Horcrux, even in such a situation takes away the apprehension of performing such a task, focusing more on the 'how can I benefit from this' aspect. It just doesn't sit well from any angle.

Many posts back, someone questioned the green reflection in DD's eyes as they stared into the basin in the cave. My interpretation was for us to see Harry in DD's role - a foreshadowing of sorts. Can anyone give us an interpretation of green in alchemical terms? Hollywand??

Choices - Jul 3, 2006 10:22 am (#2404 of 2969)
Edited Jul 3, 2006 11:26 am

The only reason I thought it possible for Dumbledore to have a Horcrux is that maybe he felt his mission to destroy Voldemort was so important, that if something happened to him he would have a way to survive and carry on with training and preparing Harry.

About using Dark Arts, didn't someone say that just because a person didn't use Dark Magic, it didn't mean that they didn't know how, they just chose not to.

Magic Words - Jul 3, 2006 11:29 am (#2405 of 2969)

Of course Dumbledore is capable of Dark Magic. He's the greatest wizard in the world. But the point I was trying to make, which I guess wasn't clear enough, is that he chooses not to use it. Even if this wasn't his original choice, it's been his choice for a while now. He wouldn't have a Horcrux now even if he had one in the past.

RajKumar Raysee - Jul 3, 2006 12:15 pm (#2406 of 2969)
Edited Jul 3, 2006 2:09 pm

Hi everyone...this is my first scrap/mail/or whatever u call it!!!;-)

I believe that Harry is a Horcrux!!! Recently I was reading some rumours on JKR official website and with her answers it seems as if that Harry will have to kill himself in order to kill Voldemort!!! and that prophecy also suggests that "Neither can live while other survives"... it seems that both have to die in the end!!! On JKR official website when this question was raised she said that she has delivered the right words from Trelawney!!! so she is not denying the fact that both of them will die in the end!!!

Solitaire - Jul 3, 2006 5:12 pm (#2407 of 2969)

maybe he felt his mission to destroy Voldemort was so important

I don't believe did feel it was his mission to destroy Voldemort. If he had, I believe Voldemort would be dead. Dumbledore, I think, believed it was his mission to prepare Harry to finish off Voldemort when the time comes.

Solitaire

Choices - Jul 3, 2006 5:34 pm (#2408 of 2969)
Edited Jul 3, 2006 6:34 pm

Well, that's actually what I meant. But I do feel it is Dumbledore who felt the need to initiate the mission to destroy Voldemort. He is the one with the "plan" and he took it upon himself to train Harry and prepare him for the vanquishing.

virginiaelizabeth - Jul 3, 2006 5:41 pm (#2409 of 2969)

I believe that Harry is a Horcrux!!! Recently I was reading some rumours on JKR official website and with her answers it seems as if that Harry will have to kill himself in order to kill Voldemort!!! and that prophecy also suggests that "Neither can live while other survives"... it seems that both have to die in the end!!! On JKR official website when this question was raised she said that she has delivered the right words from Trelawney!!! so she is not denying the fact that both of them will die in the end!!! -RajKumar Raysee

Well it all depends on how you interpret the prophecy. To me the whole "neither can live while the other survives" line means that neither Harry nor Voldemort will rest until the other one is dead. Harry, will continue to hunt LV and try to kill him because Voldemort is the reason he has no parents, and had to live with the Dursleys. Harry will never be satisfied until Voldemort is dead. Voldemort will also continue to hunt Harry and try to kill him because Harry thwarted him, he brought about Voldemort's downfall when he was at the height of his power. Harry is the reason that Voldemort had to spend 13 years as nothing more than a spirit. It caused everyone to question LV's power. So Voldy will not rest until he has proved that he can defeat Harry. Neither can live a peaceful normal life while the other is still alive. So it doesn't necessarily mean that they will both die.

As for Harry being a Horcrux, I'm in the NAH(Not A Horcrux) camp. Firstly, I think that the Horcrux spell comes after the murder. I've used this analogy before: Take a piece of paper and make a rip in it, but do not tear it into 2 separate sheets. This represents murder. It rips the soul, but does not sever it from the main portion. Now take that same paper and separate the two pieces completely. This signifies Horcrux making. The Horcrux spell actually severs the piece of soul and removes it from the body. I don't think that the soul can leave on it's own accord, and I don't think that Harry could become a Horcrux on accident. But as there is very little canon on Horcrux making, we cannot fully say that this is how it works. Jo can go anywhere she wants with this, but that's just how I feel about it.

Midori - Jul 4, 2006 2:16 am (#2410 of 2969)

HungarianHorntail11,

My point was that I cannot see DD asking anyone to do something he, himself would not do.

I got same feeling about this character too. But at once I applied this sentence not to Horcruxes but it somehow related in my mind with Snape instead.

Recently I have big troubles trying to imagine how will JKR to rehabilitate potion maker in our eyes and varnish Snape's reputation. I don’t have problems with accepting this myself, as an act of euthanasia, or act of making some unacceptable deed in the name of greater good, etc etc. But it will take an outstanding talent to explain it in book for children particularly...

Okay, I know, it is not the topic, but anyway...

About theory of Dumbledore having Horcrux...I can imagine reaction of JKR to such idea, pretty similar to when she was asked if Lily was a DE once: "How dare you?"

It doesn’t fit the image of headmaster at all. Even to defeat LV, he wouldn’t. He is not that kind of person who believes that goal justifies the means.

Pamzter - Jul 4, 2006 3:19 pm (#2411 of 2969)

I am being babysat today by my friends, Mandy (age six) and Nate (age four).

We were reading the thread about the meaning of names and Mandy wants me to suggest here that Filch has "filched" a Horcrux from Voldemort and that the Horcrux is his cat, Mrs. Norris. Nate thinks Mrs. Norris has swallowed the Horcrux.

Pamzter says thank you for your patience and points out that Filch does give his cat an extraordinary amount of attention Smile

RajKumar Raysee - Jul 6, 2006 9:38 am (#2412 of 2969)

hmmm...I must say I m a bit convinced..... about the Harry not being a Horcrux..... but there is some important relation (apart from what we know) between Voldy and Harry...what do u reckon : is Harry's scar gonna fade away after the death of Voldy???

HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 6, 2006 9:39 am (#2413 of 2969)
Edited Jul 6, 2006 11:55 am

I'm pretty sure JKR said Harry would always have that scar. I venture to guess, though, that the pain would eventually cease.

EDIT: Hi Dane - welcome! As far as I can tell, the Horcruxes are not for use, but rather for insurance - to keep him tethered to earth. Though she has been so vague with regard to them, almost anything can be up for consideration.

HH11

Dane Hardy - Jul 6, 2006 10:47 am (#2414 of 2969)

I don't know if this has been posted anywhere else, I'm kinda new here. I was just wondering if the Horcrux has to be present when LV uses it. It seems that nothing like a Horcrux was present at the rebirth in graveyard in GF. Unless Harry was the Horcrux and it was his blood. So now there is one less out there.

Choices - Jul 6, 2006 12:32 pm (#2415 of 2969)

The only purpose the Horcruxes serve is to tie Voldemort's soul to earth. If he were killed (like at Godric's Hollow) his soul would not go to heaven or wherever, it would remain earthbound because of the Horcruxes and Voldemort could then get a new body (like he did in the graveyard) - he would not completely die. He makes a Horcrux and hides it away somewhere safe, and there it remains. He does not have to ever see or mess with it again. It remains hidden and Voldemort's soul remains earthbound, should something happen to his body.

Mattew Bates - Jul 6, 2006 12:40 pm (#2416 of 2969)

Welcome, Dane Hardy! We've discussed the idea at some length in this thread, so feel free to read the older posts, there are a lot of good ideas there. The general consensus is that a Horcrux was not necessary for Voldy’s rebirth. They aren't like extra lives in a video game, they are more like anchors on a boat.

Choices - Jul 6, 2006 12:50 pm (#2417 of 2969)

Mattew - "They aren't like extra lives in a video game, they are more like anchors on a boat."

Oh, I like that. :-)

geauxtigers - Jul 8, 2006 11:38 pm (#2418 of 2969)

Okay it's late, so this could be totally crazy, but in the Horcrux chapter of HBP, when DD is talking to Harry after seeing Sluggy's memory, it says, "Harry had never seen him (DD)so agitated." (US HBP pg 510), then DD's little speak following is very un-Dumbledore-ish. He is very agitated, I'm not sure what to make of this... could he be this agitated because he knows what’s ahead and it’s vital that Harry grasps it quickly. I dunno, it just seems odd reading it this time, I just get a funny feeling of foreshadowing or something. I can't explain it, anyone else get what I'm saying. re-read maybe you'll see what I mean, I can't put my finger on it..... Just a late night over thinking it kinda thing I guess...

Choices - Jul 9, 2006 8:25 am (#2419 of 2969)
Edited Jul 9, 2006 9:25 am

I think Dumbledore is just excited that everything is falling into place. He has confirmation of what he has suspected about the Horcruxes and he is so happy that Harry has turned out the way he has - untempted by the Dark Arts and so filled with the one thing that will lead to Voldemort's downfall - love. I think Dumbledore can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel and he knows time is of the essence - what final plans there are need to quickly be set into play, for the end is near.

cindysuewho45 - Jul 24, 2006 2:23 am (#2420 of 2969)

Hi all, I feel that DD wanted Harry to understand why he (Harry) was going on to do what needed to be done. Why he needed to kill LV, or wanted to. It was not the prophecy, that was making Harry do things, it was up to Harry to choose, his own way. DD felt that Harry needed to understand that. And at the end, Harry felt that he did. He was going into this with his head held high. It gave Harry pride in what he felt he needed to do, and DD felt that this was important for him to understand.

Bruno Willey - Aug 2, 2006 8:44 am (#2421 of 2969)

Absolutely agreed Cindysue DD was defiantly sending the message to Harry that self-confidence and facing the trials ahead straight on is the most important thing he needed to understand.

Evidence, DD chose to give Harry the weapon of information instead of an arsenal of advanced spells allowing Harry to attempt to defeat Voldemort in his own way, DD as Cindysue suggested, stressed to Harry that what he was doing was his own choice not foreseen in some prophecy that he must follow unlike what Voldemort was doing by hanging on its every word. And finally that Harry be confident enough in his own abilities that he takes the fight to Voldemort's door and takes him out on his own terms shown through DD relying on Harry to obtain the memory from Slughorn through his own means.

Also a large part of bolstering Harry's confidence was how DD finally expressed how proud of him he was especially the comment in the Horcrux cave how he is safe 'because' he is with Harry not to mention Harry's sudden ability to control side-along Apparition with a little bit of confidence on his side. I personally believe that Harry easily has the ability to defeat Voldemort as anything can be accomplished once you put your mind to it especially with Harry's courage in the face of unbelievable odds!

Bruno Out

~*~LUNA~*~ - Aug 3, 2006 10:38 pm (#2422 of 2969)
Edited Aug 3, 2006 11:47 pm

OK, while typing up a new theory about Horcruxes to put on here, I came across a glitch in my idea. I based my whole idea on the night Harry died Voldy was planning to make a Horcrux, but what if he WASN'T. What if he had all 7 already. ALSO, what if Voldy WANTED 7 but never got a chance to make them all... ??

Horcruxes: 1) The ring 2) The locket 3) The Hufflepuff cup 4) The diary 5) Nagini (?Maybe?) 6) Something from Ravenclaw 7) Something from Gryffindor

But what if he didn't get the last 2

What do you all think?

Also, while checking the spelling of Nagini, I read that Voldy only got her when he needed snake venom and unicorn blood to keep him healthy after his rebirth. If this is so I now have doubts that she is a Horcrux. B/c Voldemort lost his remaining bit of soul with harry. So he couldn’t have given Nagini a bit of his soul..... ugh... now I am sooo confused. B/c if Harry destroyed a bit of Voldy’s soul when he was a baby than that means Voldy has only 6 souls left, 3 of which are now gone. So now he only has 3 souls left. I AM SOOO CONFUSED!!!!!!!

Mattew Bates - Aug 4, 2006 10:34 am (#2423 of 2969)
Edited Aug 4, 2006 11:38 am

OK, my understanding of Voldy’s six planned Horcruxes, in vaguely chronological order:

Whatever their order, the first four Horcruxes are the diary, ring, locket, and cup.

During the time in between, Voldy used an as-yet-unnamed Ravenclaw object to make a Horcrux.

The fateful Halloween at Godric's Hollow, he intended to collect the significant murder of Harry for (eventual) use with Gryffindor object, likely the Sword of Gryffindor, which may or may not have been in his possession. After his AK backfired, his heavily anchored (but still intact) Central Soul Piece gets the nickname "Vapormort." (He may have accidentally Horcruxified Harry, but that is a topic in much dispute.)

Either just before or just after his bodily rebirth, Dumbledore thinks Voldy made a "Plan B" final Horcrux to take the place of the failed Gryffindor piece, Nagini.

I realize this strays a bit from canon, but I just can't see Voldy planning on using the murder of the child of a Head Boy and Girl from Gryffindor to Horcruxify a Ravenclaw object. Does this help, ~*~LUNA~*~?

edited to add emphasis to the Horcruxes

darien - Aug 4, 2006 11:06 am (#2424 of 2969)

I suspect there is a Horcrux in Albania Why would Voldemort run away precisely to land himself in Albania? unless he already knew the place. And how did Pettigrew know that he had to go to Albania? This could adjust to the theory of one single DE taking care of one Horcrux.

azi - Aug 4, 2006 11:12 am (#2425 of 2969)

Why would people think of searching for Voldemort in Albania? He'd want to choose a country where Aurors wouldn't think to look or couldn't find him. It's also close enough for him to be able to return. Maybe in the past he visited there to learn about some form of dark magic, but we haven't heard any mention of there being anywhere of great significance to him in Albania. You would think Dumbledore would have heard a snippet of evidence about that somewhere along the line.

Then again, stranger things have happened!

Choices - Aug 4, 2006 12:42 pm (#2426 of 2969)
Edited Aug 4, 2006 1:44 pm

Luna - "Also, while checking the spelling of Nagini, I read that Voldy only got her when he needed snake venom and unicorn blood to keep him healthy after his rebirth. If this is so I now have doubts that she is a Horcrux. B/c Voldemort lost his remaining bit of soul with harry. So he couldn’t have given Nagini a bit of his soul..... ugh... now I am sooo confused. B/c if Harry destroyed a bit of Voldy’s soul when he was a baby than that means Voldy has only 6 souls left, 3 of which are now gone. So now he only has 3 souls left. I AM SOOO CONFUSED!!!!!!!

We are not told when Voldemort got Nagini - it only says he kept a large snake to use for the Unicorn Blood and venom potion that he needed to stay alive until he could obtain a new body - before his rebirth. Dumbledore tells us that Voldemort became quite fond of Nagini and may have made her a Horcrux. Voldemort did not lose his last soul bit when the AK backfired, his main soul bit simply flew off to live in the forest until Voldemort could regain a body. Originally, Voldemort wanted to split his soul into 7 pieces - six to be in Horcruxes and one main soul bit to remain in his body. This he did and so far, two (and possibly three) have been destroyed..... the diary, the ring and possibly the locket. That leaves the cup, Nagini and something of Ravenclaw's or Gryffindor's - that equals 6. The final or 7th soul bit is in Voldemort and will be destroyed when he is.

Solitaire - Aug 4, 2006 9:44 pm (#2427 of 2969)

I want Harry to go back and look more carefully at that tiara in the RoR. Molly also mentioned a goblin-made tiara to Fleur. What if one of those was a Horcrux? If Fleur wears the tiara as part of her wedding attire, Molly may tell the girls its background. Suppose they find it once belonged to Ravenclaw ... Possible?

Solitaire

sneakoscopic vision - Aug 5, 2006 7:07 am (#2428 of 2969)

Hello. I am also new to this forum, so I have not read through the previous 2427 messages.

I have a thought about the Ravenclaw Horcrux. My thought process: Rowling likes to mention ideas/objects in previous books, making them seem like simply rich details. (example, Dumbledore's mention of the room of requirement in GOF) So, thinking that she might have referred to the Horcrux in passing, what kind of object could it be? Ravenclaws are known to be wise, so what about a book?

When I thought of books mentioned (I know there are plenty) the image of a screaming book came to mind. It could just be another rich detail, but what if the screaming book in Philosopher's Stone was a Horcrux? Wouldn't a book containing part of Voldemort's soul let out "a piercing, blood-curdling shriek" (PS, ch 12)?

Yes, there are plenty of problems with this. Wouldn't there be more protection of a Horcrux than just a scream? The book is described as black and silver and does not have any Ravenclaw markings. It was just a creative way to lead Harry to the Mirror of Erised.

Just thought I'd throw that out there. Ideas?

Solitaire - Aug 5, 2006 12:10 pm (#2429 of 2969)

Interesting idea, Sneak. I've been thinking about that locket. The note says that the writer was going to destroy it. If he managed to do it before he was murdered--and if Dumbledore was right about there being only six total Horcruxes (the 7th soul fragment being in Voldy himself)--then there are only three that need to be found and destroyed. I hope that is found to be the case.

If Harry is indeed the last Horcrux, do you think DD knew this?

Solitaire

sneakoscopic vision - Aug 5, 2006 1:03 pm (#2430 of 2969)

I'm a little bit behind on the "Harry is a Horcrux" idea. Fill me in. Why would Voldemort want to make a living person a Horcrux? Mostly one that he wanted to kill? Or, do people think that this was a mistake?

Plus, going back to the prophecy, if Harry as a Horcrux is destroyed, how does this help Voldemort survive?! Part of his soul is in the thing he just killed... Wouldn't he then want Harry to survive? What am I missing?

Solitaire - Aug 5, 2006 1:32 pm (#2431 of 2969)
Edited Aug 5, 2006 2:32 pm

It isn't my theory, but some feel that when the AK failed, it accidentally turned Harry into a Horcrux. Here you go ... Kwikspell's post #16 is the first mention I can find of it on this thread ... although you might also find it on Harry's thread. Be prepared ... it is a long thread, as you can see.

Solitaire

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 5, 2006 1:51 pm (#2432 of 2969)

Sneakoscopic vision, I agree that the Horcruxes have probably been mentioned in other books. I have asserted in the past that in addition to the cup, and the locket that the opal necklace, which was introduced in Chamber of Secrets and reintroduced in Half-Blood Prince may be a Horcrux.

Solitaire - Aug 5, 2006 3:50 pm (#2433 of 2969)

I hope you are right, Nathan. I wonder, though, how they will know? Will it do something magical? Harry was able to see memory Riddle vanish when he destroyed the Diary. I wonder how he will know that any object he has is a Horcrux?

Solitaire

Choices - Aug 5, 2006 4:43 pm (#2434 of 2969)
Edited Aug 5, 2006 5:46 pm

Nathan - "I have asserted in the past that in addition to the cup, and the locket that the opal necklace, which was introduced in Chamber of Secrets and reintroduced in Half-Blood Prince may be a Horcrux."

First of all, the opal necklace is cursed and has claimed the lives of 19 Muggle owners. Voldemort would hardly have had time to own it long enough to make it a Horcrux, and just supposing that he did, would he really want his precious soul bit/Horcrux to be passing through so many Muggle hands? Seems unlikely to me. Voldemort used objects that had special meaning to him to encase his soul bits - what meaning could the opal necklace have had for him? It is hardly a family heirloom.

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 5, 2006 5:51 pm (#2435 of 2969)
Edited Aug 5, 2006 6:55 pm

Choices, this is true however, it was not an heirloom of Salazar Slytherin's it belonged to Helga Hufflepuff. As such I would argue the possibility exists that the necklace, could be an heirloom of Rowena Ravenclaw's because, as yet the Ravenclaw item has yet to be positively identified. Also, remember that Dumbledore stated that making Horcruxes out of items possessed by the Four Founders if Hogwarts would have appealed to Voldemort.

The fact that the necklace has a curse laid upon it, is part of what makes me think that it may be Horcrux. The ring in Dumbledore's words had a terrible curse laid upon it.

In regards as to how the necklace ended up in Muggle hands there are several possibilities, especially, in light of the fact that Voldemort's fate was uncertain for a period of thirteen years. Sp he may not have known about the fate of the necklace. After all he was unaware the diary had been destroyed until Lucius Malfoy revealed that information to Voldemort.

Solitaire - Aug 5, 2006 7:37 pm (#2436 of 2969)

Just one question: If the necklace was a Horcrux, wouldn't Dumbledore have tried to destroy it?

Solitaire

Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 5, 2006 8:06 pm (#2437 of 2969)

Solitaire, I have been trying to answer that question. I think answer depends on whether he had enough strength to do so. After the injuries he received as a result of destroying the power of the ring I am not certain whether Dumbledore had sufficient strength and power remaining to do so.

Solitaire - Aug 5, 2006 8:29 pm (#2438 of 2969)

Nathan, don't you think that, given his trust of Snape, Dumbledore would have had Snape destroy the necklace if he couldn't do it himself? I can't believe he would have let it slip through his fingers, if it were a Horcrux.

Solitaire

Soul Search - Aug 6, 2006 7:01 am (#2439 of 2969)

HBP never mentioned if or how a wizard could detect if a given object was a Horcrux.

Dumbledore related that he "deduced" the diary had been a Horcrux. Since he didn't see it before Harry destroyed it, this doesn't shed any light.

In the cave Dumbledore seemed to be able to "see" the magic within it. Yet, when he finally retrieved the locket from the basin and put it inside his robes, he did not pause to examine it in any way. Of course, Dumbledore wasn't exactly at his best then and getting away was a first priority, so this may not mean much.

Dumbledore stated that he found the ring by detecting the magical protections it gave off. He did not state that he could "see" it was a Horcrux.

The question remains, then, can a wizard detect if an object is a Horcrux? Does it give off a glow, or something, that can be seen by a wizard? Is there a "Horcrux detection spell?" I do wonder about the silver instrument Dumbledore used in OotP.

Current evidence suggests that there isn't a way to detect a Horcrux. At least, not something easy.

Otherwise, Dumbledore would have known the fake locket wasn't a Horcrux. Also, either the necklace isn't a Horcrux or Dumbledore couldn't detect it as being one. Or, I guess it is possible, that Dumbledore did detect it to be a Horcrux and just hasn't told Harry yet. (He isn't always forthcoming with information for Harry.)

We have clues to two objects that could fit the Ravenclaw Horcrux: the tiara in the Room of Requirement Storeroom and the Borgin and Burkes necklace.

I go on the assumption that the only coincidence in the six books was Mark Evans. Everything else is a possible clue to something.

There were two separate mentions of tiaras in HBP. Actually, the tiara, goblin made, mentioned by Mrs. Weasley could also be a candidate.

The necklace first appears in CoS and is described as "a magnificent necklace of opals." I also note that Madam Maxine was described as wearing "magnificent opals" in GoF. The necklace was also mentioned early in HBP and then again when Katie touched it. I think the necklace is my first candidate for the Ravenclaw object Horcrux; it has more mentions than the tiara. Also note, both are now at Hogwarts.

There is a possible ironic twist that I like if the necklace is a Voldemort Horcrux. Lucius Malfoy incurred Voldemort's great wrath by causing the diary Horcrux to be destroyed. Draco has now caused the necklace to be removed from Borgin and Burkes and taken to Hogwarts. Hmmm ...

Solitaire - Aug 6, 2006 1:39 pm (#2440 of 2969)
Edited Aug 6, 2006 2:39 pm

the tiara, goblin made, mentioned by Mrs. Weasley could also be a candidate

I mentioned this several posts back. Just imagine Harry figuring out that the tiara was indeed a Horcrux and trying to get Mrs. W to let him destroy it at the wedding! LOL That would mean that he would have to explain about the Horcruxes ... unless something weird happened to Fleur when she put the tiara on her head.

Solitaire

haymoni - Aug 7, 2006 5:26 am (#2441 of 2969)

I wonder if the family tiara will remind Harry of the other tiara in the Room of Requirement.

Molly could say something like, "It was made in the style of Rowena Ravenclaw's tiara." and that would trigger something in Harry's mind about a trinket of Ravenclaw's and the tiara he saw in the Room of Requirement.

Soul Search - Aug 7, 2006 6:22 am (#2442 of 2969)
Edited Aug 7, 2006 7:27 am

I am torn between the necklace and the tiara. haymoni's suggestion has a nice "fit" to it. Yet, Harry handled the RoR tiara with no dire consequences, so it appears not to have any protections.

The necklace has a serious protection: it can't be touched.

Either way, though, Harry will need a way to tell if an object is a Horcrux, or confirm that it isn't.

The silver instrument Dumbledore used in OotP is the best clue I have been able to come up with. Just what was it showing? The events at the ministry were past; the instrument wouldn't be showing Dumbledore anything about that. Neither Voldemort nor Nagini were around. But, Harry was there. If the instrument confirmed that Harry/scar was a Horcrux, could it also be used to detect a Horcrux in any object?

Solitaire - Aug 7, 2006 1:00 pm (#2443 of 2969)

The Diary didn't hurt Harry ... did it?

I do not think we can assume the silver instrument told Dumbledore that Harry was a Horcrux.

Solitaire

Soul Search - Aug 7, 2006 1:16 pm (#2444 of 2969)

Solitaire, the Diary had the most serious protections on it: Tom Riddle/Lord Voldemort. It was only by chance that the Diary wasn't responsible for the death of a number of students, Ginny, and Harry.

I agree, we shouldn't assume the silver instrument told Dumbledore that Harry/scar was a Horcrux. But, if not, what did tell Dumbledore? Dumbledore actually asked questions of the instrument!

I suggest the possibility only to help Harry identify Horcruxes.

TheSaint - Aug 7, 2006 7:47 pm (#2445 of 2969)

My vote, though much jeered, is the Invisibility Cloak. Not that it is a Horcrux, but that it was the target on a dark Halloween night.

I am not sold on the tiara...simply because there is no royalty among wizards. I don't think Ravenclaw would use something so vain...I would think it would be something more intellectual.

JM2K

virginiaelizabeth - Aug 7, 2006 8:07 pm (#2446 of 2969)

That’s a thought, The Saint, but I don't think her personality or brains, would have a whole lot to do with the object. After all, who would have suspected Slytherin of owning a locket? The tiara is a possibility, but I don't think that royalty would have anything to do with a witch or wizard having one. Molly's aunt(I think it's aunt)has one and there is no evidence that it's because she is royal. My point is that you can still own a tiara even if you aren't royal.

TheSaint - Aug 7, 2006 8:26 pm (#2447 of 2969)

Yes, I have a couple myself...I just don't picture it for Ravenclaw. The Locket had the signet S... the cup had a badger engraved on it. So far, we no nothing special about the tiara, other than harry using it to build a 'Half-Blood Prince' on top of the cabinet the book is hidden in. I suppose it is possible, but I see it as a teaser.

virginiaelizabeth - Aug 7, 2006 8:39 pm (#2448 of 2969)

I tend to agree with you on that part The Saint, I don't think it is a Horcrux, but that's just going off my gut feeling. I just wanted to point out that we can't say for sure because there is no royalty in the WW. I don't think the tiara is nearly protected enough to be a Horcrux, but then again, I'm sure Tom Riddle never thought anyone would find the RoR, so that would be a great protection...guess he was wrong! It's still possible, but I just don't think it is a Horcrux

Solitaire - Aug 7, 2006 9:49 pm (#2449 of 2969)

Does the necklace have an R or an eagle on it? The sword has Gryffindor's name engraved on it. Perhaps we need to know more about both tiaras and the necklace, although I think Dumbledore must have checked into the necklace by now and would have told Harry had it been a Horcrux. JM2K ...

Solitaire

cindysuewho45 - Aug 7, 2006 11:55 pm (#2450 of 2969)
Edited Aug 8, 2006 1:07 am

Hi all, Well if we are going on the idea that DD was 100% right about all the Horcruxes, we only need to find one. But because DD says that he sometimes makes mistakes. Maybe when Nagini is killed we will find out that, Nagini was not a Horcruxes. Maybe LV did find something from all of the Houses to use.
LV's own (1) Diary was his first Horcruxes, then after he thought it out more and had more time and opportunity
(2) Slytherin's Ring, then
(3) Slytherin's Locket and
(4) Hufflepuff's Cup.

After this we don't know really, DD says Nagini would be number (5). How about if when LV was going to kill Harry, he was planning on using something of Gryffindor's. I think that James was a descendent of Gryffindor's and could very well of had something there in the house that LV was planning on using that night. And when Wormtail went back to get LV's wand, he also picked up the object that was to be used for the Horcruxes at that time for him too. So when Harry go's back home, maybe he will have a memory or something that gives him the info. he needs?????? This could be number (5). Or I am so so wrong and DD is right about Nagini.

And then there is number (6)????? I feel that it is one of two things. The Tiara in the RoR, on the 7th floor. Or the necklace of silver and opal. They could be Ravenclaw's and because DD trust Snape at his word, if Snape is not on the good side he would not tell DD about anything unusual about the necklace. And Snape is the last person that had it. On top of being in more than one book, the necklace is also the name of a chapter in book 6, "Silver and Opals".

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darien - Aug 8, 2006 12:01 am (#2451 of 2969)

One thing: The ring isn't Slytherins, I think Morfin says "Peverell Ring" which suggests inheritance from another Noble family from which he descends. Could The Peverells be descendants of Ravenclaw or Gryffindor? and the ring have belonged to them?

cindysuewho45 - Aug 8, 2006 1:10 am (#2452 of 2969)
Edited Aug 8, 2006 2:18 am

Hi all, Well as I was saying, the necklace has been in more than one book. I went looking and so far this is what I have found. In book 2 Chamber of Secrets, page 52, it says Draco smirked when reading "the card propped on a magnificent necklace of opals, Caution: Do Not Touch. Cursed - Has Claimed the Lives of Nineteen Muggle Owners to Date." Also in book 6, Half - Blood Prince, page 127, Hermione says, " "Is this necklace for sale?" she asked, pausing beside a glass-fronted case. "If you've got one and a half thousand Galleons," said Mr. Borgin coldly." And then again on page 250, Harry saw, "An ornate opal necklace was visible, poking out of the paper." And also like I said before, a chapter was named for the necklace in book 6, "Silver and Opals". Now I have not looked back in the other books yet, but just this seems to be quite a bit. I find the way it is described as Ornate interesting, also how much it was, One & a Half Thousand Galleons. I know that I read something else about it to, but will have to keep looking. Oh yes, I was thinking that the name (Peverell) was from Slytherin's mom's side of the family.

virginiaelizabeth - Aug 8, 2006 7:47 am (#2453 of 2969)

I really think that Dumbledore would have had that necklace in his possession at some point, because of the incident with Katie. He is the greatest wizard of the time and headmaster so I think it's safe to assume that once Snape removed the curse, Dumbledore had a look at it. So that would mean that if it was a Horcrux, he surely would have found out, and told Harry about it. Harry needs as much information about Horcruxes as possible, so that he can survive, and if that necklace had been a Horcrux, Harry and the readers, would know.

I think it's more likely that the tiara is a Horcrux than the necklace, and like I said in my last post, I really don't think the tiara is, but will not forget about it, nor shoot down the possibility.

Madame Pomfrey - Aug 8, 2006 7:55 am (#2454 of 2969)

There is a possible ironic twist that I like if the necklace is a Voldemort Horcrux. Lucius Malfoy incurred Voldemort's great wrath by causing the diary Horcrux to be destroyed. Draco has now caused the necklace to be removed from Borgin and Burkes and taken to Hogwarts. Hmmm ... Soul Search

Ooh... if this turns out to be true and The necklace is destroyed, I’m sure that Draco is a goner. The thing is Filch took the necklace to Snape. Did Snape destroy it in an effort to remove its curse? Where is the necklace now? Did Voldemort purposely allow the necklace to circulate in order to destroy as many Muggles as he could? I don't think Voldemort would let one of his precious Horcruxes be on display and for sale like that. But, we don't know where B&B get the necklace or even if Voldemort’s aware that they have it.

haymoni - Aug 8, 2006 8:43 am (#2455 of 2969)
Edited Aug 8, 2006 9:44 am

We don't know how old the necklace is either.

I don't think the necklace is a Horcrux.

I think it was just really cool how Jo tied in something like the Hope Diamond Curse to the Wizarding World.

Choices - Aug 8, 2006 8:44 am (#2456 of 2969)

About the Invisibility Cloak - Dumbledore told Harry that his father left the cloak with Dumbledore before he died. So, if Voldemort went to the Potter's house to kill James and Harry, and make a Horcrux, the cloak would not have been there - it would already be in Dumbledore's possession.

TheSaint - Aug 8, 2006 10:40 am (#2457 of 2969)

But Voldemort would not know that. How would he know that? He would go there expecting that people in hiding might have an invisibility cloak... which would certainly have come in handy. I also wondered about the wording of Dumbledore's statement of how he got the cloak. Is it different in the Brit version...such that it was left to him...or something like that. I have read varying things.

Solitaire - Aug 8, 2006 1:37 pm (#2458 of 2969)

The ring isn't Slytherins, I think Morfin says "Peverell Ring" which suggests inheritance from another Noble family from which he descends.

The Lex says this under the name Peverell in Witches and Wizards from A to Z: Marvolo Gaunt wore a gold ring with the Peverell coat of arms carved into it. He implied to Bob Ogden that the ring was additional proof that the Gaunts were descendents of Salazar Slytherin (HBP10).

This makes it seem as though that ring came down through the Slytherin line ...

Solitaire

Choices - Aug 8, 2006 5:58 pm (#2459 of 2969)
Edited Aug 8, 2006 6:58 pm

I understand that Voldemort would not have known the Invisibility Cloak wasn't there. My point was that he could not have made it into a Horcrux because it wasn't at the Potter's. James had already given it to Dumbledore, according to the note.

TheSaint - Aug 8, 2006 6:29 pm (#2460 of 2969)
Edited Aug 8, 2006 7:29 pm

"My vote, though much jeered, is the Invisibility Cloak. NOT that it is a Horcrux, but that it was the target on a dark Halloween night."

Notice the not...not a Horcrux, just a target. Harry became the Horcrux, but that is a whole other argument on a whole other thread! LOL

Choices - Aug 9, 2006 8:27 am (#2461 of 2969)

I agree...not only should he graduate, but he should be given an honorary Doctor of Wizardry degree. LOL :-)

nthdavid - Aug 11, 2006 10:01 pm (#2462 of 2969)

I haven't seen the old discussions about the grey lady's tiara, but I watched the movies again this week and read the books trying to see what Ravenclaw item might have been mentioned; and... In the extra scene in COS just before Harry writes in Riddle's diary, the grey lady is sitting there with a tiara. So far this is the only Ravenclaw item that is mentioned in the books - unless I missed something.

Originally I didn't think this could be a Horcrux because I didn't think LV would just leave it lying around. But at least one of the other Horcruxes was well protected, and the ring was hidden, so if the tiara was in the room of requirement for hundreds of years I can see where he might consider that a safe enough place.

And I still think Bellatrix had the cup at some point - she starts to say how she was the most trusted DE and was interrupted (and we all know that characters in the HP books often get interrupted saying something important).

TheSaint - Aug 14, 2006 7:35 pm (#2463 of 2969)

The Gray Lady is the only Ravenclaw ghost mentioned in the books, is it even canon that she belongs in Ravenclaw? Or something Jo said? I do not believe she is Ravenclaw herself but like the other ghosts was in the House. As far as her wearing a tiara... sounds like herring, but what do I know.

virginiaelizabeth - Aug 14, 2006 7:56 pm (#2464 of 2969)
Edited Aug 14, 2006 8:58 pm

According to the Lex, The Grey Lady is the Ravenclaw ghost, but it never mentions a tiara, I think that's something we came up with a while back.

I do not believe she is Ravenclaw herself but like the other ghosts was in the House. -The Saint

I'm confused, why wouldn't she be a Ravenclaw if she is the Ravenclaw ghost? Am I missing something here?

TheSaint - Aug 14, 2006 8:04 pm (#2465 of 2969)

I did not say she was not a Ravenclaw... I said she is not Ravenclaw herself.

virginiaelizabeth - Aug 14, 2006 8:23 pm (#2466 of 2969)

Ohhh! Sorry. I just misread it. No I agree with you, I don't think she is Ravenclaw. I also think that the tiara is just a red herring. The Grey Lady doesn't wear one, so I can't see the connection.

Gerald Costales - Sep 23, 2006 9:05 am (#2467 of 2969)
Edited Sep 23, 2006 10:13 am

(This post is inspired from reading the many ideas in the Cave Thread, but it doesn’t really fit in the Cave Thread. So, I placed it here. Enjoy or throw dung bombs. Just waiting for Book 7 and trying to keep out of trouble.) ;-) GC

“…he simply knew that the task of discovering the truth about the real Horcrux had to be completed before he could move a little farther along the dark and winding path stretching ahead of him, the path that he and Dumbledore had set out upon together, and which he now knew he would have to journey alone. There still might still be as many as four Horcruxes out there somewhere, and each would need to be found and eliminated before there was even a possibility that Voldemort could be killed. He kept reciting their names to himself, as though by listing them he could bring them within reach: the locket … the cup … the snake …something of Gryffindor’s or Ravenclaw’s. … the locket … the cup … snake … something of Gryffindor’s or Ravenclaw’s … (pages 635 & 636, HBP, American edition)

I’m going to suggest that the Horcruxes have two distinctions - functional and symbolic. The functional Horcruxes were the Diary and is possibly Nagini. The symbolic Horcruxes are the Ring, the Locket, and the Cup. (I am assuming that Dumbledore was right in his beliefs of the remaining Horcruxes. So, Nagini and the Cup are used.) Between an artifact of Ravenclaw’s or Gryffindor’s, I would select Ravenclaw.

The Diary was destroyed with the Basilisk’s poisonous fang. And I suggest that the Ring was acquired or guarded by Fire. If you assume that Fire guarded the Ring then Dumbledore’s burnt and blacken hand could simply be the result of the Fire Magic protecting the Ring. The Locket was then guarded by Water Magic. The Lake and Basin both held Water. (And I might assume the Blood used to gain entrance to the Lake is again just Water Magic. Blood being mostly water.)

I’ve selected Ravenclaw’s artifact as a possible Horcrux. And I further suggest that this Horcrux will be guarded by Air Magic. The Lexicon indicates that ‘Ravenclaw’ could mean ‘Black Claw’ and birds are creatures of the Air.

And finally the Cup would be guarded by Earth Magic. The mascot of Hufflepuff is the Badger and a Badger is a creature of the Earth. ;-) GC

PS Dumbledore may have made some bad choices, just think of all the Bad DADA teachers that Dumbledore has picked. But, on the Horcruxes I think that Dumbledore should be believed. ;-) GC

Mezzanine - Sep 24, 2006 3:14 am (#2468 of 2969)
Edited by Sep 24, 2006 4:29 am

Dumbledore may have made some bad choices, just think of all the Bad DADA teachers that Dumbledore has picked.

It's not like there where many people willing to take this job. Yes, Lockhart and Quirrell were disasters, but Crouch Jr. wasn't that bad (I'm referring strictly to his teaching abilities here) because he did teach them about Unforgivables, Lupin was a great choice and Snape was, well...rather horrible (as a DADA teacher). I think his choices were still a lot better than the Ministry's choice: Umbridge=pure horror.

Edit: Sorry for the digression. Back to Horcruxes.

Anna L. Black - Sep 24, 2006 6:23 am (#2469 of 2969)

About the opal necklace as a Horcrux - at first I dismissed this idea fairly quickly, but then, something came to my mind:

The necklace was for sale at Borgin & Burkes - which is exactly where young Tom Riddle worked! It is possible that the necklace has already passed through the hands of 19 Muggle owners when Tom worked at the shop, and that he decided that the curse on this object was enough for him to make it a Horcrux (and that decision was right, you could say, because for almost 50 years the necklace remained in the shop). Of course, there's not much in canon to back it up, but it's another possible hint of the necklace being a Horcrux.

Kevin Corbett - Sep 24, 2006 3:41 pm (#2470 of 2969)

Huzzah! I'm glad to see that someone else has considered a potential tie of the Horcruxes to elemental magic, as each of the founder's is, as we know from the Leaky/Mugglenet interview, associated with one of the basic elements. I too have been thinking that Hufflepuff's cup could very probably be in some place somehow specifically died to the Earth element, as Slytherin's was in the Cave filled with water. So, if we assume that the cup is hidden somewhere in the British Isles, where might that be? If we assume its someplace we've never been, we can only really consider the topography of the place, as JKR only gave us a general geographical location for the Cave as being somewhere on the seaside. So, where would an earthy place be? In a mountain, maybe? Or a mine, perhaps?

S.E. Jones - Sep 26, 2006 12:51 am (#2471 of 2969)

--So, if we assume that the cup is hidden somewhere in the British Isles, where might that be?--

It will probably be hidden somewhere in Voldemort's past. The diary was given to one of his followers and then taken to his old school. The ring was at his grandfather's house. The locket where he, and the other orphans, used to visit. So, the other remaining Horcruxes (except for Nagini which is probably with him now - could they be back at the Riddle house?) are probably hidden in places tied to his childhood and life pre-Voldemort - which might mean Borgin & Burkes.

Speaking of elemental magic and the TLC/Mugglenet interview:

"...I wanted them to correspond roughly to the four elements. So Gryffindor is fire, Ravenclaw is air, Hufflepuff is earth, and Slytherin is water, hence the fact that their common room is under the lake."

If you look at the elements as describing the founders’ personalities, could this tell us anything about what Ravenclaw might have left behind to become a Horcrux via Voldemort? Fire is very dynamic, forceful (I'm thinking of when Harry and everyone woke up in PoA to find that a supposed mass murderer had just ran out of their room, so their very Gryffindor-sequel response is to grab their wands and take out after him!); Gryffindor left behind a sword, again a symbol of something very dynamic and forceful and adventurous. Earth is very stable, very basic, tied to hard work (like farming) and the Hufflepuff common room being close to the kitchens ties them to the bounty of the earth and rewards of hard work; Hufflepuff left behind a cup, again very basic (not as fancy as a signet ring or a ruby-emblazoned sword), tied to the fruits of the earth and simple comforts. Water is very fluid and formless, it can change to meet the shape of things around it, it can be unpredictable, it wears things down slowly over time; this is more keyed to Slytherins' general personalities (you know, the whole resourceful thing, possibly the ambitious thing if you think of how water kinda erodes solid rock until it finally gives in and takes the shape the water wants it to) but we know that the objects left behind by Slytherin and his relatives were also connected to his personality as well and the importance he put on blood and the inheritance of it (a signet ring, a heavy gold locket, a chamber with a big critter that only be opened by a blood relative). So, could such an elemental description of Ravenclaw tell us anything about what she might have left behind? Yeah, I know I'm kinda reaching here, but I thought it might be worth asking anyway..... .

As an aside, I'm curious what people think Voldemort had originally planned to use as a Horcrux after killing baby Harry 15 years ago. If he already had something of Ravenclaw's and the sword was safely hidden in the sorting hat (we assume) at the time, what was he going to use? Is there another relic of Hufflepuff's or Ravenclaw's out there somewhere? Or, was the sword not as securely hidden in the hat at the time as we had assumed? Just curious.....

Mrs Brisbee - Sep 26, 2006 7:55 am (#2472 of 2969)
Edited Sep 26, 2006 9:18 am

--So, if we assume that the cup is hidden somewhere in the British Isles, where might that be?--

It will probably be hidden somewhere in Voldemort's past. The diary was given to one of his followers and then taken to his old school. The ring was at his grandfather's house. The locket where he, and the other orphans, used to visit. So, the other remaining Horcruxes (except for Nagini which is probably with him now - could they be back at the Riddle house?) are probably hidden in places tied to his childhood and life pre-Voldemort - which might mean Borgin & Burkes.

"Somewhere in Voldemort's past" sounds like an excellent deduction.

My one problem with Borgin and Burkes is imagining Voldemort placing his Horcrux in a shop where it might be in danger of being sold off.

Other likely candidates from Voldy's past:

Hogwarts. This seems the most likely to me as a location. It is important, Voldemort has definitely shown an interest in the place, and we know he's been there on several occasions. I think it likely that a Founder's Item Horcrux on the premises is responsible for the DADA curse. The trophy room, the Room of Requirement, or behind the fallen in tunnel (that did collapse during Quirrell's tenure, right?) seem like good places to look.

The Peverell (sp?) family castle or estate. No other reason except why mention it if it's not important? Also, Voldemort has shown interest in other branches of his family, so why ignore this one?

The orphanage. I don't think this one is very likely, but it's still a possibility. Maybe up in his old bedroom.

And finally the Cup would be guarded by Earth Magic. The mascot of Hufflepuff is the Badger and a Badger is a creature of the Earth.-- Gerald Costales

This is an interesting idea. So if the Cup were at Hogwarts, it would be in the cellar somewhere. The kitchen, perhaps?

juliebug - Sep 26, 2006 9:20 am (#2473 of 2969)

Actually, I don't think there are any Horcruxes at Hogwarts. At least none that are out in the open. We learned in HBP that Dumbledore can sense when dark magic has been used upon something. This was how Dumbledore knew to look in the cave, how to enter and how to get to the locket. If there were a Horcrux at Hogwarts, especially one out in the open like the trophy room, I think Dumbledore would have found it already. It could be that one was stashed away in a very secret place like the Chamber of Secrets, but I'm just not sure.

I don't think we should be too quick to rule out Borgin and Burke's either. We know that portraits can be made impossible to move through the use of sticking charms from both OotP and HBP. Neither magic nor Muggle methods could remove those portraits from their places on the walls. Could a similar kind of magic be used to keep the item from being sold? Could the item be hidden in a cellar, attic or other discreet location at Borgin and Burke's?

Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 26, 2006 9:31 am (#2474 of 2969)

Julie, if the opal necklace is a Horcrux it is now at Hogwarts because, the last the readers saw of the necklace, it was being taken by Mr. Filch to Professor Snape.

haymoni - Sep 26, 2006 10:16 am (#2475 of 2969)

There has to be something hidden in the Room of Requirement.

Harry could have hidden his Potions book anywhere - he didn't have to go back to that room.

JKR took us there for a reason.

S.E. Jones - Sep 26, 2006 10:20 am (#2476 of 2969)
Edited Sep 26, 2006 11:22 am

haymoni --JKR took us there for a reason.--

haymoni, I thought the reason was that Draco was using the room, and the DEs used the room to enter Hogwarts.

What about curses that keep someone who bought an object from Borgin and Burkes from keeping it? Like the way the ring burn Dumbledore's hand, maybe he placed a curse on an object that would make it so dangerous it would never be sold.

I definitely think Voldemort hid something at the orphanage. He hid the locket at the seashore that the orphans visited after all.

haymoni - Sep 26, 2006 10:28 am (#2477 of 2969)

I think Harry could understand Draco using the room as he did - he needed a room to work in.

However, using the room to hide something - and seeing all the other stuff that was in there - why go through all that detail? I realize that he saw the cabinet, but why did all the other stuff have to be in there too?

It really is just hurting my head too much - all this speculation. I'm glad the movie pictures are starting to flow. It gives me something else to gripe about!

S.E. Jones - Sep 26, 2006 10:49 am (#2478 of 2969)
Edited Sep 26, 2006 11:49 am

haymoni --I realize that he saw the cabinet, but why did all the other stuff have to be in there too?--

If she just mentions the cabinet, then it stands out. If she mentions a bunch of stuff then the cabinet gets lost in the mess, which makes it a much greater "Doh!" moment for us when we realize there was something crucial in there (i.e. the cabinet).

haymoni - Sep 26, 2006 10:50 am (#2479 of 2969)

See - I'm thinking that way about the tiara.

shadzar - Sep 26, 2006 10:55 am (#2480 of 2969)

my post on another site

ok a Horcrux is made by splitting your soul. It would seem that when making one Horcrux you split your soul into two parts so no problem, but splitting your soul into 7 parts would make a little more difficult to do it evenly if not all done at one time. But since the diary was one then this cant be true unless all the Horcruxes were made at that time. Still possible.

That would mean Harry couldn't be on cause he was born after the other were made, but his blood was needed to remake the body.

If the body dies then wouldn't the soul depart more than just becoming vaporous. Wouldn't that portion of the soul be lost without the other Horcruxes? Would using a Horcrux render it moot to further uses?

So maybe then one of the ingredients to making a new body requires the Horcrux in order to link the soul with the new body. That leaves one Horcrux used up. Two were destroyed (diary, ring), leaving only 3 remaining. 7 parts of the soul, one body 6 items; 3 items used/destroyed.

Maybe that is what he meant by going farther than anyone before towards immortality since he split his soul into 7 rather than just 2.

So is there only 3 remaining Horcruxes to find or am I mistaken in my understanding?

It would leave for a short book if that is all that is required to defeat LV. Did Lucius know about Horcruxes and that the diary was one, or just trying to cover his tracks with the raids? Would LV have left Horcruxes with people to look after even if they didn't know what they were looking after, or just scattered them out of sight from all people?

Choices - Sep 26, 2006 10:59 am (#2481 of 2969)

The Room of Requirement that Harry saw in HBP was a room used over many, many years as a hiding place for all sorts of things students and teachers did not want discovered. What better place to stash a Horcrux? I also think the Hufflepuff Cup will be found in the trophy case. So, that is two Horcruxes that are possibly at Hogwarts, one possibly at #12 Grimmauld Place and one possibly with Voldemort.

S.E. Jones - Sep 26, 2006 11:04 am (#2482 of 2969)

haymoni --See - I'm thinking that way about the tiara.--

Hm, so maybe Rowena collected tiaras? Well, wizards collect stranger things, things that breath fire and whatnot.....

shadzar --So is there only 3 remaining Horcruxes to find or am I mistaken in my understanding?--

I'm not entirely sure what you were getting at with your overall post. We know that if you destroy the remaining Horcruxes and then go after the 7th fraction of soul in Voldemort, there will be nothing tying that piece down so Voldemort will die instead of becoming vapor again. We haven't heard anything about Voldemort using a Horcrux in his rebirth potion, so we're still really left trying to figure out the remaining four.

Choices - Sep 26, 2006 11:13 am (#2483 of 2969)

There are four Horcruxes not definitely accounted for..... .the Hufflepuff Cup, the locket, Nagini and something of Ravenclaw's or Gryffindor's. The diary and the ring are gone and one soul bit remains in Voldemort..... .six Horcruxes, one soul bit = the most magical number 7.

shadzar - Sep 26, 2006 11:33 am (#2484 of 2969)

So if using a Horcrux doesn't "destroy" it or at least make it no longer useable for returning life back, then one carefully hidden Horcrux would suffice to make someone immortal. Then what would be the point of splintering the soul so many times into 7 parts?

It seems that once a Horcrux was used to restore the soul to a body that it would render it unusable for another attempt. So that is where I am lost (I guess with everyone else) how LV came back in GoF?

So definitely 3 that can still be used, and one unknown as to whether it was "used up" in GoF totaling 4...gotcha.

MY post was just saying I thought a Horcrux was used up when activated to restore the part of the soul that it bound to the mortal coil. That would mean 1 used, 2 destroyed, one lost when AK Harry as a baby, leaving only 3 soul portions outside of LV corporeal body. Hope that makes better sense as to what I was trying to say. Even though I already understand everyone position about 4 Horcruxes being unaccounted for.

S.E. Jones - Sep 26, 2006 11:40 am (#2485 of 2969)
Edited Sep 26, 2006 12:42 pm

I don't think he had to use up a Horcrux in GoF. The whole point of the Horcruxes is that, should his body be destroyed, his soul would still be bound to the earth by the presence of it in objects (that's why he became vapor instead of dying). So, all he had to do was create a body the last bit could reside in once more (just like it resided in Quirrell's body for a time). Therefore, he wouldn't have needed to use up a Horcrux in the rebirthing potion as the Horcruxes whole point is simply to force part of his soul to reside somewhere outside of his body so he can't be killed. See what I mean? He didn't have to use up a Horcrux because the bit of soul that was in the body the rebounding AK destroyed simply moved to the body he has now. It wasn't destroyed, just misplaced.

shadzar - Sep 26, 2006 11:53 am (#2486 of 2969)

AHA! I get it. so the Horcruxes aren't used, but just anchors for part 7 of LV.

I still don't get the point of 7 parts. Wouldn't that have diminished his abilities and made him only 1/7th as strong assuming that the soul contains the powers/ability to use magic, while the body only contains the soul. Doesn't that show LV as being a bit dumb? OR just an afterthought and maybe the reason he wasn't powerful enough to defeat DD cause he had already made the Horcruxes before he needed to defeat Dumbledore.

LV: I can now live forever random DE: But you aren't powerful enough to beat DD and rule now. LV: DOH! ~AKs the random DE so he can't tell anyone else~

Wouldn't it also be possible that DD tomb was protected against LV, and he somehow had one of the Horcruxes interred with him?

I am also still confused why they couldn't touch the basin liquid, but could get it with a goblet and drink it to get that supposed Horcrux...and where could R.A.B. have hidden the locket (s)he stole?

Does R.A.B. have to be initials, or maybe something else telling the location on the Horcrux for someone smart enough to think deeper.

R~~~~~ A~~~~~ B~~~~~ = something Latin telling where it had been moved to. or English even "Resting Above Blarney".

haymoni - Sep 26, 2006 12:01 pm (#2487 of 2969)
Edited Sep 26, 2006 1:02 pm

S.E. Jones - That's what I thought.

We really need clarification on murder/soul-tearing/Horcrux-making, with a timeline to boot.

Voldy has killed loads of people - I'm picturing his soul like a big cut-out of a person, with all these perforated lines/tears on it from all the murders he has committed.

He certainly has killed more than 6 people - his soul is torn all over the place, but he only chose to remove 6 parts of it and create Horcruxes with them.

Does this mean that there is 1 big chuck of soul with many perforations on it still inside of him and he just took 1 little perforated piece off each of the 6 times he made a Horcrux?

Or is his soul divided into 7 even pieces?

Because he had murdered so many people and had so many perforations, could he make the Horcrux at any time or does it have to immediately follow a murder?

When did he start making the Horcruxes? We have to assume that the deaths of his father & grandparents were used to create the first. He then has the conversation with Sluggy about multiple Horcruxes, so I doubt he had made another.

Or did he stun Morphin, take the ring, kill his family and make the Horcruxes after he confirmed what he knew with Sluggy - his soul was perforated 3 times by then - he could make 3 Horcruxes.

The fact that he was wearing the ring when he was talking to Sluggy makes me think that he had NOT turned it into a Horcrux-holder yet.

I'm still not certain about Myrtle's death - did the basilisk just kill her by accident when she walked out of the stall or did Tom know she was there and was ready to command the basilisk to kill her?

Too many questions - my head hurts again!

legolas returns - Sep 26, 2006 12:06 pm (#2488 of 2969)

I don’t think Myrtle’s death was an accident. I just think that she was in the wrong place at the wrong time and she was a Muggle-born. I’m not sure if you could use that murder to make a Horcrux.

The three killings is only 1 act though. Killing your family may only split your soul once.

I would imagine that Voldemort has put reasonable sized chunks in the Horcruxes. Hence why he does not look human anymore.

haymoni - Sep 26, 2006 12:10 pm (#2489 of 2969)

Yes - so each soul chunk would be perforated.

Oh - who knows?

This would really be a nice thing for her to explain on her website.

I really don't think it would be giving much away.

S.E. Jones - Sep 26, 2006 12:12 pm (#2490 of 2969)

haymoni --Does this mean that there is 1 big chuck of soul with many perforations on it still inside of him and he just took 1 little perforated piece off each of the 6 times he made a Horcrux?

That's the way I always saw it, otherwise, you'd either have to do all the cuts at once, or you'd have to have a way of resizing the chunk of soul within each Horcrux to make them all even. I think the majority of his soul (which isn't saying much at this point) is still within his body.

shadzar, my understanding is that he made several so he could hide them in case one was destroyed. That way, no matter how many people found out about his secret, there would always be the chance that a Horcrux was overlooked and Voldemort could live forever.

shadzar - Sep 26, 2006 12:29 pm (#2491 of 2969)

S.E. Jones: Now if we only knew if 7 was the actual number, or if there are more and 7 was just a guess.

legolas returns - Sep 26, 2006 12:30 pm (#2492 of 2969)

7 is seen as the most magic number.

haymoni - Sep 26, 2006 12:52 pm (#2493 of 2969)

That was another question - was it important to have 7 pieces of soul or was it more important to always have 6 Horcruxes and 1 soul bit inside him?

I guess it was more important to have his soul split in 7 parts.

Otherwise he would just keep making them over & over again and Harry would be in major, major trouble.

legolas returns - Sep 26, 2006 12:54 pm (#2494 of 2969)

Well if you had 6 Horcruxes and 1 piece inside him its still 7 pieces of soul.

I think he stuck at 7 parts.

juliebug - Sep 26, 2006 2:27 pm (#2495 of 2969)

Nathan, was that opal necklace you were referring to the same one that Draco tried to poison Dumbledore with? The one that almost killed Katie Bell? I never considered it as a Horcrux candidate, but I guess it could be. I would think that either Snape or Dumbledore would have examined it before passing it off to Snape, but maybe not.

S.E. Jones - Sep 26, 2006 3:33 pm (#2496 of 2969)

Wasn't there also an opal necklace mentioned at the Black house in OP?

juliebug - Sep 26, 2006 3:44 pm (#2497 of 2969)
Edited Sep 26, 2006 4:52 pm

At the Black house, there is a heavy locket that no one can open. I don't remember any stones mentioned.

edit: I just checked the book. OotP (US ed.), chapter 6 page 116: "also a heavy locket that none of them could open,..."

If this is a Horcrux (and I believe it is a definite possibility) it may still prove hard to find. It's very likely that this locket was stolen and sold by Mundungus Fletcher.

S.E. Jones - Sep 26, 2006 4:12 pm (#2498 of 2969)

juliebug, I definitely think that's the locket Dumbledore thought he was acquiring when he went to the cave. It could be with Mundungus, as we know he was selling off stuff Sirius had thrown out, but it could also be Kreacher, who we know was stealing stuff away to his "room".

juliebug - Sep 26, 2006 4:37 pm (#2499 of 2969)

Another possibility.

Kevin Corbett - Sep 26, 2006 5:30 pm (#2500 of 2969)

I'm not sure if anyone has ever discussed this, but I wonder who the "old Muggle man" who Dumbledore supposed LV use to make Nagini into a Horcrux. At first I assumed this was Frank from GoF...but it isn't, obviously, because LV already had a whole load of control of Nagini at the scene he has killed in.

This is a bit unlikely, but I have considered the possibility that this was Tobias Snape. He would have certainly been old at the time after LV lost his body, and he seems to have vacated Spinner's End permanently. Snape might have disliked or even hated his father, but maybe he still begrudged LV killing him, and this was DD's airtight reason for his trust in him.

As for the Ravenclaw Horcrux, I've been thinking about it, and I've come up with the theory that it might be in some kind of a tower. A tower is up in the air, just like the Ravenclaw's dormitories, and it could also be a symbol of the human intellect, being man made. Furthermore, we know that Ravenclaw had interest in architecture, given her supposed designing of the moving staircases, so a tower would be an ideal hidey-hole for a Horcrux made from her relic.

But what kind of an object might it be? The necklace attracts me as a possibility, but only because it lifted Katie Bell IN THE AIR. Still it seems like it wouldn't have been just sitting on a shelf, waiting for someone to buy it if it was hidden in B and B's. Even if LV was "remarkably blasé" about the diary, at least he gave it to someone he thought he could trust in Malfoy, not to mention that the diary would do something constructive for LV in opening the chamber, whereas the necklace would have just killed the first person who touched it. Hmmm...quite a mystery.

As for the rationale behind the seven part soul: if the soul is in seven parts, it possibly gains the power arithmantically or numerologically inherent in the number. And LV is right, seven is a number that has big associations with mystical power (though it may not be the most: my knowledge of numerology is rather limited). Also, as with Sauron's rings, you may be to harm or enslave others who come into contact with your widely distributed power. Or something like that.

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S.E. Jones - Sep 26, 2006 6:28 pm (#2501 of 2969)

Kevin Corbett --At first I assumed this was Frank from GoF...but it isn't, obviously, because LV already had a whole load of control of Nagini at the scene he has killed in.--

I don't think he had any more control over her in that particular scene than Harry had over the snake in PS. All we really get to see of her is her coming down the hall and her telling Voldemort that Frank was there. There's nothing in the scene to suggest he had a great hold over her.

Mrs Brisbee - Sep 26, 2006 6:40 pm (#2502 of 2969)
Edited Sep 26, 2006 7:40 pm

I don't think he had any more control over her in that particular scene than Harry had over the snake in PS. All we really get to see of her is her coming down the hall and her telling Voldemort that Frank was there. There's nothing in the scene to suggest he had a great hold over her. --S.E. Jones

I agree. And seeing how Voldemort the Ugly Baby was still planning to murder Harry at that point, it would make sense that he was also still planning to use Harry's murder for his last Horcrux, because Dumbledore suspected that's what he was up to in Godric's Hollow. Why switch plans when everything is going smoothly?

I think Nagini must have been made after the graveyard debacle, perhaps because Voldemort decided he really needed a seven part soul now. No wonder he was so ticked off when he found out Lucius had gotten his diary destroyed! There went that plan...

nthdavid - Sep 26, 2006 9:58 pm (#2503 of 2969)

We know who all was killed by LV's wand between Harry's parents and Cedric; they all came out of LV's wand in the fight. The only Muggle was Frank...

Gerald Costales - Sep 27, 2006 11:44 am (#2504 of 2969)
Edited Sep 27, 2006 12:46 pm

‘… And seeing how Voldemort the Ugly Baby was still planning to murder Harry at that point, it would make sense that he was also still planning to use Harry's murder for his last Horcrux, because Dumbledore suspected that's what he was up to in Godric's Hollow. Why switch plans when everything is going smoothly?

I think Nagini must have been made after the graveyard debacle, perhaps because Voldemort decided he really needed a seven part soul now. No wonder he was so ticked off when he found out Lucius had gotten his diary destroyed! There went that plan ... ‘ Mrs Brisbee

Mrs Brisbee - I agree that LV was in Godric’s Hollow to make the 6th and final Horcrux (a Gryffindor Horcrux). So, I believe that Nagini was a replacement Horcrux for Gryffindor’s Horcrux (which would have made something of Gryffindor’s the 6th and final Horcrux). I believe we can assume this since it was after all in Godric’s Hollow.

‘We know who all was killed by LV's wand between Harry's parents and Cedric; they all came out of LV's wand in the fight. The only Muggle was Frank ... ’ nthdavid

nthdavid - you could be right if you assume that Frank was the 6th and Final Victim to be used to make the 6th and Final Horcrux. But, you can’t assume that LV would only use Muggles to make all of his Horcruxes. I’m thinking that Bertha could a possible candidate for the 6th and Final Victim.

If Nagini replaced the Gryffindor’s Horcrux then Ravenclaw’s Horcrux would be one of the six Horcruxes. ;-) GC

PS So, that would leave the locket, the cup, Nagini, and something of Ravenclaw’s as the four remaining Horcruxes.

PPS I don’t think that LV is replacing destroyed Horcruxes with new Horcruxes because that would make Book 6 too complicate and too long.

PPPS Of course some of us wouldn’t complain if Book 6 was too long!!!!! ;-) GC

S.E. Jones - Sep 27, 2006 11:53 am (#2505 of 2969)

I don't think nthdavid was assuming that all the Horcruxes were made with Muggles, just the last as Dumbledore alludes to the Horcrux coming as a result of the death of a Muggle man (I'll have to double check that, though).

Kevin Corbett - Sep 27, 2006 2:00 pm (#2506 of 2969)

Ah, but doesn't Dumbledore say he believe Voldemort USED Nagini to kill the old Muggle man, but Frank was killed with by the AK. Also, I think that, if Dumbledore knew it was the old Muggle who Harry had seem come out of LV's wand, he would have said so.

Choices - Sep 27, 2006 5:18 pm (#2507 of 2969)
Edited Sep 27, 2006 6:19 pm

I think it just means that Nagini alerted Voldemort to the fact that Frank was listening outside the door at the Riddle house, Wormtail opened the door and Voldemort killed Frank with the AK.

Harry recognized the old man as the one he had seen in his dream and in the dream Voldemort killed the old man. Dumbledore didn't need to say it was Frank, because it is pretty obvious that it was. Dumbledore does tell Harry in HBP that Voldemort, failing to make a Horcrux with Harry's death, used the old Muggle's (Frank) death to make a Horcrux of Nagini. Also, in an earlier book (sorry, can't remember exactly where), but Dumbledore tells Harry of reading about Frank's death in a Muggle newspaper. I think it probably tipped Dumbledore off that Voldemort was gaining strength/coming back and was up to his old tricks.

Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 28, 2006 9:39 pm (#2508 of 2969)
Edited Sep 28, 2006 10:41 pm

I had a thought on the speculation about the opal necklace. If the opal necklace turns out to be a Horcrux then it could be a form of homage to Sir Walter Scott's novel Anne of Geierstein

Sir Walter Scott in the novel Anne of Geierstein, published in 1831. It seems that Anne had an opal that that reflected her moods: it shone red when she was angry, blue when she was sad and green when she was happy. When Anne died, the opal faded and lost all of its color. csd.unl.edu/Birthstones/opal.asp

Gerald Costales - Sep 30, 2006 5:47 am (#2509 of 2969)
Edited Sep 30, 2006 7:29 am

"Sir Walter Scott in the novel Anne of Geierstein, published in 1831. It seems that Anne had an opal that that reflected her moods: it shone red when she was angry, blue when she was sad and green when she was happy. When Anne died, the opal faded and lost all of its color." Nathan Zimmerman

The problem I have with the opal necklace is that it was intended to be used to kill Harry. Why use a Horcrux, if it so valuable to Voldemort, as a murder weapon?

Lucius had Riddle's Diary and used it, but the Diary was capable of bringing back the memory of a young Tom Riddle to life. I doubt that was Lucius' intention. And the question I would ask is - Why did Lucius have the Diary in the first place?

I think the Diary was a test Horcrux. That is Riddle’s first attempt to make a Horcrux. And it does appear that Myrtle was the Victim that was used to change the Diary into a Horcrux. As to the reason for why I suspect that Diary was a ‘test Horcrux’ - There doesn’t seem to have been any special enchantments around it to protect it.

Now, I admit no protection around the Diary is a weak reason. But, may be only the valuable Horcruxes need protection. People would want to steal or own both Slytherin's Ring and Locket and Hufflepuff's cup. Riddle needed to steal to obtain the Locket and the Cup. And one could assume that a Ravenclaw Horcrux or Gryffindor Horcrux would be valuable (jewelry, painting, etc.) and need to be protected from theft.

At this point, I don't know how R.A.B. removed or prevented the Heavy Metal Locket from being in the Cave?

PS May be Lucius was injured like Dumbledore when the Ring was destroyed. And Lucius healed from any injuries obtained from getting the Diary, But then again, the "Heavy Metal Locket" could be handle without any ill affect either.

PPS Nathan - I liked Anne's opal necklace. May be that "Heavy Metal Locket" will have some special qualities when they finally locate it. ;-) GC

juliebug - Sep 30, 2006 6:38 am (#2510 of 2969)

G.C. said, "The problem I have with the opal necklace is that it was intended to be used to kill Harry. Why use a Horcrux, if it so valuable to Voldemort, as a murder weapon?"

The opal necklace wasn't intended for Harry, it was part of Draco's plan to get Dumbledore.

"May be Lucius was injured like Dumbledore when the Ring was destroyed. And Lucius healed from any injuries obtained from getting the Diary, But then again, the "Heavy Metal Locket" could be handle without any ill affect either."

Lucius Malfoy never tried to destroy the diary himself. I was under the impression that the diary was left in Lucius' care by Voldemort. It also seems as though what that journal truly was had never been explained to Lucius.

Gerald Costales - Sep 30, 2006 9:31 am (#2511 of 2969)
Edited Sep 30, 2006 10:46 am

‘The opal necklace wasn't intended for Harry, it was part of Draco's plan to get Dumbledore.’ juliebug

juliebug - Thanks for the correction.

But if Draco succeeded, then Dumbledore is murdered and a Horcrux is lost. If Draco doesn't succeed, then Dumbledore on examining the opal necklace, discovers another Horcrux, and a Horcrux is lost.

‘Lucius Malfoy never tried to destroy the diary himself. I was under the impression that the diary was left in Lucius’ care by Voldemort. It also seems as though what that journal truly was had never been explained to Lucius.’ juliebug

I agree Lucius couldn’t be trusted with knowledge that the Diary was a Horcrux.

But, why have something as valuable as either the opal necklace (if it was a Horcrux) and the Diary so available to almost anyone and unprotected. Didn’t Draco just buy the necklace at B&B’s?

Voldemort was upset at Lucius at the Graveyard. So, could some of Voldemort’s disapproval be connected to the fact that Diary (a Horcrux) had been lost? I think some people have thought Voldemort disapproval was because Lucius had used the Diary for Lucius’ personal needs and not saved the Diary for Voldemort’s needs. (Remember, we didn’t know the Diary was a Horcrux at that time.) ;-) GC

PS If Nagini is a Horcrux, Nagini can protect herself. Nagini is an extremely deadly Snake. And, I doubt even now that the reborn Voldemort would allow Nagini far from his sight and control. ;-) GC

Choices - Sep 30, 2006 10:01 am (#2512 of 2969)

Dumbledore tells Harry that Voldemort was very angry at Lucius for the diary fiasco.

"..... but he was not aware, for instance, that the diary had been destroyed until he forced the truth out of Lucius Malfoy. When Voldemort discovered that the diary had been mutilated and robbed of all its powers, I am told that his anger was terrible to behold."

Dumbledore also tells Harry that Voldemort vanished shortly after giving Lucius the diary.

virginiaelizabeth - Sep 30, 2006 12:15 pm (#2513 of 2969)

I think the Diary was a test Horcrux. That is Riddle’s first attempt to make a Horcrux.

I always thought that the diary was the first one, and it was used for the purpose of seeing if Tom Riddle could actually do it. Then when he succeeded, he got a bit more creative about the objects he used. The timing is right too, I think it was made with Myrtle's death. It makes senses, that he would chose something simple like a diary, to be his first attempt, just in case the object was destroyed. It'd be ok to ruin a blank diary, but he would not have been too happy if he destroyed Hufflepuffs cup or Slytherin's locket. After a while, I think that he decided to enchant it with instructions on how to open the chamber. He wanted that diary read. He wanted to reopen the chamber of Secrets again, but couldn't risk it again while he was at school. I think that's why it wasn't enchanted in the ways that the ring and the locket were.

I'm still iffy about the necklace. I just can't really see why it would or wouldn't be a Horcrux. We haven't really seen anything about it that would be significant to Tom Riddle.

Kevin Corbett - Sep 30, 2006 12:35 pm (#2514 of 2969)
Edited by Sep 30, 2006 1:35 pm

But the necklace was in a location tied to LV's past, just as all the other known Horcruxes have been. I still think it somewhat unlikely that it is one, but there is at least some grounds for it on that point.

I think someone was speculating earlier on how R.A.B. got the locket out of the basin. As I've said before, I think the same barrier that was place over the entrance to the astronomy tower stairwell was placed on the basin, one that would only let someone with a Dark Mark penetrate it by conventional scooping.

As for the old Muggle man being Frank, I'm still unconvinced. It says he USED Nagini to kill this old Muggle man, and LV killed Frank with his wand. I guess there's room for ambiguity, but I still think it means this old Muggle man was killed whilst LV was possessing Nag, not that she simply tipped him off.

S.E. Jones - Sep 30, 2006 12:43 pm (#2515 of 2969)

--And it does appear that Myrtle was the Victim that was used to change the Diary into a Horcrux.--

I thought Dumbledore said he used the Riddles' deaths to make the diary into a Horcrux?

shadzar - Sep 30, 2006 1:29 pm (#2516 of 2969)

I think Myrtle was just a lucky accidental death. Tom facing the opening, basilisk sticking its head out facing Tom, Myrtle pops out looking in the direction of them and makes eye contact with the basilisk.

What exact requirements are needed to split a soul? Can you do it by ordering someone else to do the killing or does it have to be done with your own hands?

I also think the Riddles were the first using all three items to make into Horcruxes at the same time (diary, ring, locket).

Gerald Costales - Sep 30, 2006 2:30 pm (#2517 of 2969)
Edited Sep 30, 2006 3:43 pm

Who kept the Diary at the end of "Chamber of Secrets"?

I'm trying to organize a theory about the Horcruxes and don't have the Books in front me. I'm guessing Dumbledore. But would like to get it confirmed before I invest too much time into it. Thanks. ;-) GC

PS At the beginning of HBP Dumbledore showed Slughorn Slytherin's Ring and it's cracked. In the Horcrux chapter of HBP is Slytherin's Ring cracked? Didn't Tom have the Ring when Tom was asking Slughorn about Horcruxes?

Choices - Sep 30, 2006 4:33 pm (#2518 of 2969)

Harry does ask Dumbledore if he can have the diary and Dumbledore gives it to him, but the last "person" to have the diary is Dobby. He opened it after Lucius handed it to him and saw the sock - he had gotten clothes from Malfoy and was free. What became of the diary after that is unknown.

As to Myrtle's death - I too think it was just an accidental thing. The basilisk was exiting the pipes, Myrtle happened to be there..... .wrong place, wrong time. To split his soul, I think Voldemort would have had to kill Myrtle with his own hands (actually his wand), so to speak. I don't think he can take credit when something else does the killing, even if it was at his bidding, which I don't think it was.

Gerald Costales - Sep 30, 2006 5:19 pm (#2519 of 2969)
Edited Sep 30, 2006 6:32 pm

Choices - Thanks for the info. GC

"# Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Ch 22-24 #47 - K Stahl Jan 17, 2006 08:46 am CH 17: A Sluggish Memory: p363:

"Finally, after painstaking research through old books of Wizarding families, he discovered the existence of Slytherin's surviving line. In the summer of his sixteenth year (i.e. his 16th year on this earth, between his 5th and 6th year at Hogwarts), he left the orphanage to which he returned annually and set off to find his Gaunt relatives.""

Found this by using the Search feature. (And it's the first time that I've used the Search feature. I just typed Slytherin's ring.) ;-) GC

Again, no book please help, need info ...

At the beginning of HBP Dumbledore showed Slughorn Slytherin's Ring and it's cracked. Later in HBP is Slytherin's Ring cracked during the Pensieve scene with Tom and Slughorn? Didn't Tom have the Ring when Tom was asking Slughorn about Horcruxes? ;-) GC

S.E. Jones - Sep 30, 2006 5:56 pm (#2520 of 2969)
Edited Sep 30, 2006 7:06 pm

Gerald --At the beginning of HBP Dumbledore showed Slughorn Slytherin's Ring and it's cracked. Later in HBP is Slytherin's Ring cracked during the Pensieve scene with Tom and Slughorn?--

The ring wasn't cracked in the pensieve scene in either Morfin's memory or Slughorn's.

Gerald Costales - Sep 30, 2006 8:54 pm (#2521 of 2969)

S.E. Jones - Thanks for the info.

I've been trying to formulate a timeline on the Horcruxes. I may just do a sketchy presentation and refine it as people point out the weak areas. But, I think I've got a basic picture of Tom and then Voldemort thought process. I believe Dumbledore had a feeling of how Voldemort did things, Voldemort’s M.O.

I hope that Harry learned enough in the 6th Book to start thinking like Voldemort instead of reacting to what Voldemort does. We know JKR has left us enough clues. I'm just going to try to connect the dots.

More later. ;-) GC

Gerald Costales - Sep 30, 2006 10:51 pm (#2522 of 2969)
Edited Sep 30, 2006 11:52 pm

Came across this info. about the Tom and the Diary Horcrux.

The Lexicon Timeline has Riddle’s Father and Grandparents murdered in the Summer of 1943.

"In the summer of his sixteenth year, he left the orphanage to which he returned annually and set off to find his Gaunt relatives... Meanwhile, in the village of Little Hangleton, a maid was running along the high street, screaming that there were three bodies lying in the drawing room of the big house: Tom Riddle Senior and his mother and father." (p340, 342)

Also according to the Lexicon Timeline the Diary Horcrux was created after these murders

‘ ... so the timeframe for the creation of the diary Horcrux is between September and December, 1943. All along, Tom realized that Dumbledore was watching him closely: "I knew it wouldn't be safe to open the Chamber again while I was still at school. But I wasn't going to waste those long years I'd spent searching for it. I decided to leave behind a diary, preserving my sixteen-year-old self in its pages, so that one day, with luck, I would be able to lead another in my footsteps, and finish Salazar Slytherin's noble work."

It appears that the murders of Tom's Father and Grandparents were not used to create the diary Horcrux. ;-) GC

PS How do you destroy or at least render useless a Horcrux?

S.E. Jones - Oct 1, 2006 12:27 am (#2523 of 2969)

Okay, the diary was made a Horcrux after the murders, but I don't think that says he didn't use them to make the diary a Horcrux. I don't think you have to create a Horcrux there on the spot when you kill someone but we know the soul is splintered then so I'm guessing you can pull the splinter of soul out later (I'm sure it's very hard to do and so needs a lot of preparation) to create the Horcrux. We know that he created the diary when he was 16 and that the summer of his 16th year, he killed the Riddles. I'm guessing that's when he made the diary into a Horcrux because he then comes back to school (his 7th year, I'm guessing) and asks Slughorn what happens if you make more than one. That's how I read the various passages and what my notes say about the timeline.

Choices - Oct 1, 2006 9:45 am (#2524 of 2969)

I agree with you, S.E. Jones. I think Tom used the murder of his father and grandparents to create the diary Horcrux.

S.E. Jones - Oct 2, 2006 11:14 pm (#2525 of 2969)
Edited Oct 3, 2006 12:18 am

Okay, I'm going to just repeat myself here, so feel free to skip this post if you like. Since I'm not the only one trying to make a timeline for the Horcruxes, and Voldemort for that matter, I thought I'd post what my notes actually say on the subject of the diary, Voldemort asking about Horcruxes and the diary becoming one.....

------------------

Since you have to be already 11 before Sept 1st of your first year, and Voldemort was born Dec 31 (HBP13, 266, US), he would've had to turn 11 the December before he could enter Hogwarts. If you go by CoS's "fifty years ago" calculation, that would put the events of the first time the Chamber opened in the 1942-1943 school year, which Voldemort states was his fifth year ("In my fifth year, the Chamber was opened..." CoS13, 241), so he would've turned 16 that school year (he would've had to turn 11 before entering Sept 1938, so he turned 15 before Sept of his fifth year - 1942 - and 16 before Sept of his sixth year - 1943). He frames Hagrid half way through June of his fifth year (CoS13, 242), and we know that Riddle decided he couldn't reopen the Chamber while still at school so he made the diary "preserving [his] sixteen year old self" (CoS17, 312), so he probably made it at the end of his 5th year or at least sometime before Dec of his 6th year. We know that he went looking for the Gaunts and Riddles in the "summer of his sixteenth year" (HBP17, 363), the summer between his 5th and 6th school years, so it would've been after opening the Chamber and either after creating or around the time he created the diary. He then returns and asks Slughorn about Horcruxes in either his 6th or 7th year (we don't know how long after the Gaunt incident he asked). I'm guessing that it's his 6th year, because Dumbledore tells Harry, in regards to Slughorn's memory, that, "At the same age that you are now [16], give or take a few months, Tom Riddle was doing all he could to make himself immortal." (HBP23, 499). As we don't know that you have to make the Horcrux at the same time you splinter your soul, he would've already had the diary handy when he killed the Riddles and could've either made the diary into a Horcrux just before or just after asking Slughorn about them.

------------------

Anyway, that's my notes on that. I hope it helps someone with their notes in some way as I know others are constructing timelines too. Sorry for the repeat.

EDIT: Okay, having said that, we know he killed Myrtle and then the Riddles, and Dumbledore doesn't think he killed anyone between the Riddles and Hepzibah Smith, is it possible that he used Myrtle and the Riddles to not only make the diary a Horcrux but the ring one as well? (That's assuming Myrtle's death would've counted as soul shattering. Or maybe the Riddles' deaths counted as splitting his soul three times?)

And I still find myself wondering what he was planning to use as a Horcrux for Harry's murder..... Did he have some info about something belonging to Gryffindor, like where the sword might be hiding?

Gerald Costales - Oct 3, 2006 7:01 am (#2526 of 2969)
Edited Oct 3, 2006 8:05 am

Any ideas on the making of a Horcrux are all conjecture at this point. My feeling is that Horcrux making is as complex as the Rebirth Rite of Voldemort at the Graveyard. Another thought is that something is taken from the Victim. Knowing Voldemort that would be Blood. Kill a Victim then take a Vial of Blood that could later be used to make a Horcrux. So, Tom could have killed the Riddles taken Vials of Blood then used the saved Blood later to make a Horcrux.

‘… and the walls wiped themselves clean.’
’What kind of blood was that, incidentally?’ asked Dumbledore ... ’
‘On the walls? Dragon,’ shouted the wizard called Horace ... ’
‘Yes, dragon,’ repeated the wizard conversationally. ‘My last bottle, and prices are sky-high at the moment. Still, it might be reusable.’
‘He stumped over to a small crystal bottle...’ … "examining the thick liquid within."
‘Hmm. Bit Dusty.’ ... page 65 HBP, American edition)

I’m assuming that Dragon's Blood was the "thick liquid within" the small crystal bottle. ;-) GC

juliebug - Oct 3, 2006 7:20 am (#2527 of 2969)

I agree, Gerald, that Horcrux making probably does involve some very complicated spell work. We know from the trio's searching through the restricted section of the library that information on how to make Horcruxes can't be found in a book. I have a theory that I posted on another a while back. Nobody ever responded, so it either required a lot of thought, or it was too crazy to even dignify with a response.

We know that Tom Riddle attended Hogwarts from 1938 through 1945. We know that many very significant things happened in 1943: the creation of the diary, Riddle's visit with his Uncle Morphin, the murders of the Riddle family, Riddle's framing of Morphin as the murderer and Riddle's acquisition of the ring. We know that the ring was in Riddle's possession when he asked Slughorn about Horcruxes.

Because he does not seem to have been able to learn how to make Horcruxes from books or his teachers, my guess is that during his summer holidays away from Hogwarts, Riddle sought out wizards who would be able to teach him about this and possibly other dark magic. Riddle graduated from Hogwarts in 1945 and went to work at Borgin and Burke's. In that same year, something else very significant happened in the wizarding world. That is when Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald. I wonder if as a student, Riddle hadn't turned to Grindelwald or one of his followers to find more sources of knowledge on dark magic. Any thoughts?

Kevin Corbett - Oct 3, 2006 1:33 pm (#2528 of 2969)

I have one thing to point out: does it ever say that Gaunt's ring is Slytherin's? I don't believe it does. It simply says that it's been in the family for generations, so it might be a relic of some other branch of their line. It might indeed be Slytherin's, but I wouldn't consider that confirmed.

juliebug - Oct 3, 2006 2:35 pm (#2529 of 2969)

You are right. The only item that is ever stated to be Slytherin's is the locket. Here is the actual quote about the ring in chapter 10 of HBP.

"...he was showing Ogden the ugly, black-stoned ring he was wearing on his middle finger, waving it before Ogden's eyes. 'See this? See this? Know what it is? Know where it came from? Centuries it's been in this family, that's how far back we go, and pure-blood all the way! Know how much I've been offered for this, with the Peverell coat of arms engraved on the stone?"

Gerald Costales - Oct 3, 2006 5:01 pm (#2530 of 2969)
Edited Oct 3, 2006 6:49 pm

"I have one thing to point out: does it ever say that Gaunt's ring is Slytherin's? I don't believe it does. It simply says that it's been in the family for generations, so it might be a relic of some other branch of their line. It might indeed be Slytherin's, but I wouldn't consider that confirmed."

Kevin Corbett

Just because the Peverell coat of arms engraved on the stone is on Gaunt’s Ring, doesn’t mean that it couldn’t have been Slytherin’s Ring at one time.

Royal Families have been known to change names ...

The name Saxe-Coburg-Gotha came to the British Royal Family in 1840 with the marriage of Queen Victoria to Prince Albert, son of Ernst, Duke of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha. Queen Victoria herself remained a member of the House of Hanover. The only British monarch of the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha was King Edward VII, who reigned for nine years at the beginning of the modern age in the early years of the twentieth century.

King George V replaced the German-sounding title with that of Windsor during the First World War. The name Saxe-Coburg-Gotha survived in other European monarchies, including the current Belgian Royal Family and the former monarchies of Portugal and Bulgaria.(Source: History of the Monarchy, Kings and Queens of the United Kingdom (since 1603), Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The House of Windsor came into being in 1917, when the name was adopted as the British Royal Family's official name by a proclamation of King George V, replacing the historic name of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. It remains the family name of the current Royal Family. (Source: History of the Monarchy, Kings and Queens of the United Kingdom (since 1603), The House of Windsor, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

So, my point is that Pure-Blood Wizarding families could inherit different surnames or simply change their surnames. Just like us Muggles. ;-) GC

PS Doesn’t it amaze you the trivia I know? If only I could use it to make money.

PPS Being somewhat of a Know-It-All does help when posting on the Forum. ;-) GC

Madame Pomfrey - Oct 3, 2006 6:57 pm (#2531 of 2969)

How did Voldemort learn about Horcruxes?

I remember reading a theory posted by Choices involving The Book of Thoth and The CoS. It's been awhile and although I can't remember all of it the part I do remember is that this book contained old magic as well as how to achieve immortality. It was buried in a chamber somewhere. Another interesting thing is that the Thoth worshipped serpents. Perhaps Voldemort had this book. We know he learned about Horcruxes somewhere. We also know that he has made statements like “This is old magic, I should have remembered it." Why should he have remembered old magic unless he had access to it, I mean, does Hogwarts teach old magic? I remember thinking that perhaps we would see this theory come true, even more so now that we know about Horcruxes.

Meoshimo - Oct 3, 2006 9:39 pm (#2532 of 2969)
Edited Oct 3, 2006 10:41 pm

"Okay, having said that, we know he killed Myrtle and then the Riddles, and Dumbledore doesn't think he killed anyone between the Riddles and Hepzibah Smith, is it possible that he used Myrtle and the Riddles to not only make the diary a Horcrux but the ring one as well? (That's assuming Myrtle's death would've counted as soul shattering. Or maybe the Riddles' deaths counted as splitting his soul three times?)" S.E. Jones[/b] - Oct 3, 2006 12:14 am (#2525 of 2532)

I interpret the consequence of soul splitting to come from deliberate killing. I don't think we can count Myrtle as Tom deliberately murdering her. With regards to the Riddles' deaths counting as three, that's a possibility. It may be connected to the question of how he killed them. Did he do it with one curse or did he pick them off one by one? Does the number of people killed matter, or the number of times he had to deliberately cast a killing spell?

It's late here, so I may not have explained myself properly...

Choices - Oct 4, 2006 6:02 am (#2533 of 2969)

I tend to think he had to use three separate AK's to kill three separate people. Just as firing one bullet won't kill three people (except possibly in extremely rare circumstances), I think it would take three AK's to wipe out the father and grandparents and would count as three murders.

juliebug - Oct 4, 2006 6:21 am (#2534 of 2969)

Peter Pettigrew killed 12 people with a single curse.

I actually do think that 3 separate AK spells were used, but it is possible to kill multiple people with one shot.

haymoni - Oct 4, 2006 7:12 am (#2535 of 2969)

If he blasted something open, the flying debris could have killed the 12 Muggles.

I think 3 AK's were cast on the Riddles.

Choices - Oct 4, 2006 9:55 am (#2536 of 2969)

I agree with Haymoni - Peter blew up a gas line or something similar and the blast killed those people, not the spell.

juliebug - Oct 4, 2006 10:10 am (#2537 of 2969)
Edited Oct 4, 2006 11:10 am

While I do agree that debris from some kind of explosion could have killed a dozen people, the book has several different people (including the Minister of Magic who appears to be an expert on the subject) saying Sirius Black killed 13 people with a single curse. While we later learned that the killer was really Pettigrew and the real number was 12, the fact remains that the wizarding community believes that a single curse did all the damage. It sounds like the curse itself was some kind of explosion. For the record, I do and have always thought that the Riddles were each done in by separate AK spells, but it seems that we do have canon proof that a single spell can do the job on multiple people.

Choices - Oct 4, 2006 10:27 am (#2538 of 2969)
Edited Oct 4, 2006 11:48 am

The number was originally thought to be 13 ---- 12 Muggles and 1 wizard, Peter. But, we know that Peter was not killed by the blast.

I think it is possible that one spell killed those people, but logically how do you explain that the street was blown apart? If it was the spell that killed them, then there should be no damage to the surrounding area, just 12 dead Muggles. However, there was a crater in the street deep enough to crack the sewer. It was explained as a gasoline explosion. So, that to me does not equal canon evidence that one spell can kill 12 people, because the one spell may or may not be what killed them - it could have been the spell, it could have been flying debris or it could have been a gasoline explosion. I think it might be better to say that the single spell caused whatever killed the Muggles. I know we have evidence that an AK that backfires, mixed with the old magic of a mother dying for her child, can produce an effect that can cause a house to end up in ruins, but that was an occurrence that has never happened before. Another spell causing a street to explode following so soon after the AK thing, would be a bit much to believe in my opinion. I have to go with some sort of gas explosion or flying debris killing those folks.

juliebug - Oct 4, 2006 10:39 am (#2539 of 2969)

When JKR has Hermione or McGonagall say something, it is generally easy to call it a fact. Both of them say that 13 people were killed by a single curse. If this were not possible, I don't think those characters would have said it.

haymoni - Oct 4, 2006 10:43 am (#2540 of 2969)
Edited Oct 4, 2006 11:43 am

I don't doubt that 1 curse caused their deaths - I'm just saying that 1 curse caused something to happen (debris flying) which caused their deaths.

Peter pointed that wand behind him - he had no idea where those people were. We've never seen a spell that covers a whole area, other than the disappearing act Dumbledore uses and I doubt seriously that Peter would ever in his wildest dreams be capable of that.

I'm guessing that stupid "Bombarda" curse that Movie Hermione uses could have caused the damage that killed those people.

Meoshimo - Oct 4, 2006 8:46 pm (#2541 of 2969)

We also haven't seen a whole lot of Dark Arts, either. I'm sure there are more curses that kill than the Avada Kedavra, and probably some more obscure Dark Arts curses that could kill multiple people. My guess is that whatever curse Pettigrew used was aimed at the street and caused a sort of big explosion, which killed all the Muggles (from debris, sheer force of the explosion, etc.). Keep in mind that Pettigrew was taught Dark magic, probably by Voldemort himself, and can do complicated magic like the Animagus Transformation.

cindysuewho45 - Oct 5, 2006 2:40 am (#2542 of 2969)

Hi all, Well I was thinking about Horcruxes today, so I have been reading up on all of your post. And I have to say that I understand why some of you do not feel that there would be any Horcruxes in Hogwarts. Because as you say, DD would have noticed any dark magic at the school. Like in the cave when he sensed things and told Harry that magic leaves a mark on things. But in the books DD says that he dose not know all of Hogwarts secrets yet. And DD also talked about the time he needed to go to the bathroom and one just showed up. He didn't know about the RoR on the 7th floor at that point. DD had not ever been in the CoS in book two. So I am sure that there is a lot of places at Hogwarts to hide something and a lot of places that DD never saw before his death.

S.E. Jones - Oct 5, 2006 8:52 am (#2543 of 2969)

cindysuewho45, hi! I have to disagree about him not knowing about the RoR as he also gave Harry a wink after mentioning the strange room, thus showing that he was having fun with whoever (was it Karkaroff? Fudge?). Harry then remembers the wink in OotP and says that Dumbledore knew about it.

Choices - Oct 5, 2006 9:27 am (#2544 of 2969)
Edited Oct 5, 2006 10:30 am

Not only does he know about it, but he has been in it. He remembers seeing a magnificent collection of chamber pots in the Room of Requirement early one morning when he had an extremely full bladder. And just to bring this back to topic, Dumbledore didn't see one Horcrux while he was in there. Thank you very much!

Soul Search - Oct 5, 2006 11:43 am (#2545 of 2969)

I have been wondering something about Horcruxes. We have it in mind that all Voldemort's Horcruxes have to be destroyed before Voldemort's body can be killed. Otherwise, Voldemort would, once again, be in vapor form and would be able to come back with another body.

What about the reverse; while Voldemort is in vapor form all his Horcruxes are destroyed? Without Horcruxes to hold his final soul-bit, would Voldemort's vapor-soul "go over?"

Dumbledore knows Voldemort is still around after Godric's Hollow. No doubt, he figures a Horcrux is involved. He starts studying Voldemort to identify the Horcrux object. But, he sees the diary Horcrux destroyed and suspects multiple Horcruxes. Did Dumbledore begin looking for Horcruxes so he could destroy them? He did find and destroy the ring Horcrux, but after Voldemort had a body.

In OotP, the ministry, Dumbledore avoids killing Voldemort, probably because he knows there are more Horcruxes. But, with Voldemort without a body, wouldn't the Horcrux hunt be easier?

Or is it that Dumbledore doesn't want Voldemort to just "go over," but wants him completely erased? And, that is Harry's job.

juliebug - Oct 5, 2006 12:04 pm (#2546 of 2969)

I think Dumbledore is concerned that merely destroying Voldemort's body will only cause further delays in the war to completely vanquish him and possibly put them in a worse position. Voldemort was completely off the map for 10 years. What would happen if he disappeared again? I think more of his supporters would find him this time. I think he could go into hiding and wait, making the general public believe him to be gone again, for a perfect time to go after Harry.

Steve Newton - Oct 5, 2006 12:22 pm (#2547 of 2969)

Actually, Soul Search, I think that we are pretty sure that Voldemort's body can be killed, at least for a while. That is what happened when the AK backfired. He does seem to retain the ability to bounce back, though.

Choices - Oct 5, 2006 12:28 pm (#2548 of 2969)

Soul Search - "What about the reverse; while Voldemort is in vapor form all his Horcruxes are destroyed? Without Horcruxes to hold his final soul-bit, would Voldemort's vapor-soul "go over?"

I don't think it would. Obviously, if he became Vapormort again, a Horcrux held him to this plain. I think if that Horcrux was then destroyed, Vapormort would still have the chance to get a new body. But then, with no more Horcruxes, if he were killed, his body and the soul bit within it, would be gone for good. No more chances.

Gerald Costales - Oct 6, 2006 5:52 am (#2549 of 2969)
Edited by S.E. Jones Oct 6, 2006 6:04 pm

(re: post #2534) ‘Peter Pettigrew killed 12 people with a single curse.’ ‘I actually do think that 3 separate AK spells were used, but it is possible to kill multiple people with one shot?’ juliebug

(re: post #2536) Peter blew up a gas line or something similar and the blast killed those people, not the spell.’ Choices

(re: post #2541) ‘Keep in mind that Pettigrew was taught Dark magic, probably by Voldemort himself, and can do complicated magic like the Animagus Transformation.’ Meoshimo

(I think Peter learned the Animagus Transformation from the Marauders.) GC

Now here’s my thoughts on these three posts.

‘Peter Pettigrew killed 12 people with a single curse.’ juliebug

I have a simple but radical explanation for Wormtail’s/Peter’s amazing power.

Just asked your self who’s Wand did Peter use?

A simple answer would be Voldemort’s Yew Wand. (Why not? I haven’t checked it out but - Didn’t Peter hand Voldemort his Yew Wand after Voldemort’s rebirth at the Graveyard?)

‘Keep in mind that Pettigrew was taught Dark magic, probably by Voldemort himself . .’ Meoshimo

Now, that’s a possibility. (Also, Peter received a Shiny Silver Hand for another service rendered.)

So, Who was at Godric Hollow that Night?

(I know there’s a - Was It Snape At Godric's Hollow That Night?)

But, It makes more sense that Peter was at the Potter’s house. Peter was their Secret Keeper. Rebounded AK, Voldemort vaporized, and Peter picks up Voldemort’s Yew Wand and run!!!!! ;-) GC

The first we are exposed to a Horcrux was in the CoS. Of course, we don’t know that Tom’s Diary is a Horcrux until Book 6.

I asked this question in my post #2517 - Who kept the Diary at the end of "Chamber of Secrets"?

He looked into Harry’s face. ‘But it makes no difference. In fact I prefer it this way. Just you and me, Harry Potter ... you and me ... ’
He raised the wand --- Then, in a rush of wings, Fawkes had soared back overhead and something fell into Harry’s lap --- the diary. For a split second, both Harry and Riddle, wand still raised, stared at it. The, without thinking, without considering, as though he had meant to do it all along, Harry seized the basilisk fang on the floor next to him and plunged it straight into the heart of the book. There was a long, dreadful, piercing scream. Ink spurted out of the diary in torrents, streaming over Harry’s hands, flooding the floor. Riddle was writhing and twisting, screaming and flailing and then --- He had gone. Harry’s wand fell to the floor with a clatter and there was silence... . (page 322, CoS, American edition)

-Just edited to fix some HTML errors. Don't forget the ">" at the end of a tag. I also deleted the following two posts by Gerald Costales as they just repeated this one.- SE Jones

Choices - Oct 6, 2006 9:51 am (#2550 of 2969)

Gerald - "Just asked your self who’s Wand did Peter use?"

I have to believe that Peter used his own wand, at least until we are told otherwise. Peter is sort of a scared little rat - would he have the nerve to use his Master's wand without permission? Also, we know you do not get as good a result with another wizard's wand.

I agree Voldemort probably taught some Dark Arts to Peter, but I don't think we can say Peter was a powerful wizard. McGonagall intimated that Peter depended on James and Sirius and Lupin to help him. They were the smart ones and Peter just did what they told him to do.

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Gerald Costales - Oct 6, 2006 7:57 pm (#2551 of 2969)
Edited Oct 6, 2006 9:37 pm

First my post #2549 should have ended after ...

So, Who was at Godric’s Hollow that Night?

(I know there’s a - Was It Snape At Godric's Hollow That Night? Thread.)

But, it makes more sense that Peter was at the Potter’s house! Peter was their Secret Keeper. Rebounded AK, Voldemort vaporized, and Peter picks up Voldemort’s Yew Wand and runs!!!!! ;-) GC

(Also, there's another reason Peter ran that night. If Peter was the last person with Voldemort, then the Death Eaters would be after Peter. So, that would mean Sirius, the Order of the Phoenix, Death Eaters, and the MoM looking for Peter. Why the MoM? Didn't the Potter's House explode! Wouldn't that Magical Explosion have set-off some Magic Detecting Machine at the MoM?)

(I was rushing off and just pushed the Post Message I’ll finish the latter part of post #2549 later.

But, if you want to know how I feel about Voldemort’s Yew Wand and Harry’s Holly Wand, you might want to read my entire post #403 in the Fawkes and other Phoenixes Thread. ;-) GC

But, here’s a short excerpt from that post ...

At first, I felt that Dumbledore was unaware of Tom Riddle’s evil tendencies until after the CoS was opened. In brief, Moaning Myrtle was killed by the Basilisk. Hagrid and Aragog were framed by Riddle and Riddle appeared to be a Hero. Dumbledore would help the expelled and orphaned Hagrid (with Hagrid eventually becoming Gamekeeper and Keeper of the Keys and Grounds at Hogwarts). And Dippet, the Headmaster, and everyone else at Hogwarts with the exception of Dumbledore, were duped into believing Tom Riddle’s innocence. And it was at this point that, I used to believe that Dumbledore first began keeping an eye on Riddle. But, events in the HBP proved otherwise. In the HBP we learn that Dumbledore personally delivered the Hogwarts’ Letter for Tom Riddle.

(If one assumption from the first five Books has changed; what other widely accepted assumptions need to be reexamined because of new information brought to light in the HBP.) (From my intro to my post # 391 on the Mr. Ollivander thread.)

If Dumbledore knew Tom Riddle had evil tendencies - Why commission a Wand that would be as potentially dangerous as the Yew Wand? (Isn’t the Yew Wand an extremely lethal weapon - Would you have given a loaded gun (the Yew Wand) to a young Tom Riddle knowing what Riddle had done to his fellow orphans?)

But of course - WANDS don’t KILL, AK’s do?

Also, this could be the reason the Death Eaters took Ollivander or forced Ollivander into hiding. Royal Honey makes Queen Bees. Fawkes feather cored Wands makes Great Wizards?

(And some more thoughts on Wands from my post #401 in the Fawkes and other Phoenixes Thread. Again, just an excerpt.)

1. Are Tom’s Wand and Harry’s Wand somehow exceptional?

(That is are Tom’s Yew Wand and Harry’s Holly Wand more powerful, stronger, and potent than an average Wand? Example: I can say I bought a car, but a car can range from a Smart Car to a Hummer. So, wouldn’t Wands range in power and ability? So, shouldn’t the Wands destined for Neville and Luna differ from Wands destined for Harry and Hermione in power and ability?)

‘Ah, now this one is one of mine, isn’t it?’ said Ollivander, with much more enthusiasm, as Cedric handed over his wand. ‘Yes, I remember it well. Containing a single hair from the tail of a particularly fine male unicorn… must have been seventeen hands; nearly gored me with his horn after I plucked his tail.’ (page 309, GoF, American edition)

2. If these Wands (Tom’s and Harry’s) are exceptional, is it because both Wands contain a feather from Fawkes?

(Do Better materials make Better Wands?)

“I think we must expect great things from you, Mr. Potter… after all, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named did great things --- terrible, yes, but great.’ (page 85, SS, American edition)

PS I hope that wasn’t too confusing.

PPS You can tell I'm a bit obsessed with Harry? ;-) GC

Phelim Mcintyre - Oct 7, 2006 5:48 am (#2552 of 2969)

I have just looked up elements and symbols on Google. JKR has said that she has seen the four houses as tied into the elements. Would this give us a clue as to what to look for the Ravenclaw artifact? The symbol of fire is often a sword, Godric Gryffindor's sword is in the Headmaster's office. The symbol of earth is a cauldron. Celtic and Roman myth had a cauldron of rebirth that became the Holy Grail. Helga Hufflepuff left a cup. This gives us two of the artifacts. Why though a locket for Slytherin? Often the water symbol is a chalice or cauldron but we already have one of these. Could this be tied to the downward triangle symbolising water? Then what about air? Most sites visited on Google give the same symbol - a wand. Is the wand in Ollivander's shop a Ravenclaw artifact? If so has it been made into a Horcrux yet? If not, did Ollivander go into hiding at the advice of Dumbledore?

Looking at where things were hidden. Water and the Slytherin (water element) locket in the cave. Hufflepuff Cup somewhere to do with earth, possibly the orphanage or even the graveyard where his father is buried. Ravenclaw, something to do with air. As yet no idea as I can't think of anything in the books to do with towers or mountains and Riddle or Voldemort.

Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 7, 2006 7:08 am (#2553 of 2969)
Edited Oct 7, 2006 8:22 am

I think the opal necklace that poisoned Katie Bell remains a possible candidate for the following reasons

First, in Greek mythology opals were held to be made of elemental water, (Slytherin's element) because, opals were tears that Zeus cried after the victory over the Titans, and were considered to impart the gift of prophecy and foresight while, the Roman associated opals with the traits of love, hope and purity.

Second, Arabic lore holds that opals were made of fire (Gryffindor's element) because, they rained down from the skies along with the lightning bolts that gave mankind fire.

However, there is a third way of looking at the opals, which involves a melding of fire and water through the use of a harmonizing agent The concept of melding the traits of a Slytherin (elemental water) as symbolized by the colors green and silver, and to a degree the courage and valor of Gryffindor(elemental fire) as symbolized by the colors red and gold is reminiscent to me of the role played by the intermediate elements of air and earth, in the sense that earth and air bridge the gap between fire and water. As Pliny the Elder wrote

"For in them you shall see the living fire of ruby, the glorious purple of the amethyst, the sea-green of the emerald, all glittering together in an incredible mixture of light." Pliny the Elder as quoted here [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Pliny the Elder wrote a second similar statement on opals:

There is in them a softer fire than the ruby, there is the brilliant purple of the amethyst, and the sea green of the emerald - all shining together in incredible union. Some by their splendor rival the colors of the painters, others the flame of burning sulphur or of fire quickened by oil. Pliny The Elder as quoted here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Fourth, the pre-Socratic philosophers of ancient Greece believed that elemental air was both hot, and wet because it formed the bridge that led from fire to water conversely the Greeks believed that elemental earth was cold and dry because it lead from water to fire.

The Greek classical elements are Fire, Earth, Air, and Water. They represent in Greek philosophy, science, and medicine the realms of the cosmos wherein all things exist and whereof all things consist.

Plato mentions them as of Pre-Socratic origin, a list created by the Ionic philosopher Empedocles (ca. 450 BC).

Fire is both hot and dry. Earth is both cold and dry. Air is both hot and wet. Water is both cold and wet.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element#Classical_elements_in_Greece

The only item that we have seen in the series that could meet the description of elemental air is the opal necklace first seen in CoS which reappeared in HBP twice.

Phelim, on your point about Tarot cards, specifically the point you made about wands symbolizing elemental air. That topic has long been a point of contention and debate. Stuart Kaplan, Annie Lionnet, Kathleen McCormack, Naomi Ozaniec, Rachel Pollack, Juliet Shaman-Burke have all asserted in their works on the Tarot assert that wands represent fire, and swords symbolize air.

Phelim, if you would like I am willing to send you a reference list containing both the titles of the books I used by the various authors I have listed and I will include the page numbers to the relevant passages.

Given the debate on that topic I am not certain whether Tarot Cards can be used to effectively determine candidate Horcruxes

Phelim Mcintyre - Oct 7, 2006 7:40 am (#2554 of 2969)

Nathan, I'm not using tarot cards not being into that type of thing. But doing the Google search I mentioned every site had wand as a possible symbol of air and sword for fire. So as with all things concerning symbolism there is difference amongst the "experts". JKR has already broken the rules by not giving a Slytherin Horcrux as a chalice so why not now?

Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 7, 2006 7:45 am (#2555 of 2969)
Edited Oct 7, 2006 8:46 am

Phelim, I am not into tarot cards either I just have these volumes because I needed them for a class I took on mythologies while at university. I agree it is possible that J.K. molded the symbolism to fit.

Gerald Costales - Oct 7, 2006 8:45 am (#2556 of 2969)
Edited Oct 7, 2006 9:52 am

(In my post #2467, I came to similar ideas based on thinks that are in the Books.)

I’m going to suggest that the Horcruxes have two distinctions - functional and symbolic. The functional Horcruxes were the Diary and is possibly Nagini. The symbolic Horcruxes are the Ring, the Locket, and the Cup. (I am assuming that Dumbledore was right in his beliefs of the remaining Horcruxes. So, Nagini and the Cup are used.) Between an artifact of Ravenclaw’s or Gryffindor’s, I would select Ravenclaw.

The Diary was destroyed with the Basilisk’s poisonous fang. And I suggest that the Ring was acquired or guarded by Fire. If you assume that Fire guarded the Ring then Dumbledore’s burnt and blacken hand could simply be the result of the Fire Magic protecting the Ring. The Locket was then guarded by Water Magic. The Lake and Basin both held Water. (And I might assume the Blood used to gain entrance to the Lake is again just Water Magic. Blood being mostly water.)

I’ve selected Ravenclaw’s artifact as a possible Horcrux. And I further suggest that this Horcrux will be guarded by Air Magic. The Lexicon indicates that ‘Ravenclaw’ could mean ‘Black Claw’ and birds are creatures of the Air.

And finally the Cup would be guarded by Earth Magic. The mascot of Hufflepuff is the Badger and a Badger is a creature of the Earth.

Here are some additional thoughts on the Basic Elements and Horcruxes.

(re: post #2470)

... I'm glad to see that someone else has considered a potential tie of the Horcruxes to elemental magic, as each of the founder's is, as we know from the Leaky/Mugglenet interview, associated with one of the basic elements. I too have been thinking that Hufflepuff's cup could very probably be in some place somehow specifically tied to the Earth element, as Slytherin's was in the Cave filled with water. So, if we assume that the cup is hidden somewhere in the British Isles, where might that be? If we assume its someplace we've never been, we can only really consider the topography of the place, as JKR only gave us a general geographical location for the Cave as being somewhere on the sea-side. So, where would an earthy place be? In a mountain, maybe? Or a mine, perhaps? Kevin Corbett

(re: post #2471, posted by S.E. Jones)

Speaking of elemental magic and the TLC/Mugglenet interview:

"I wanted them to correspond roughly to the four elements. So Gryffindor is fire, Ravenclaw is air, Hufflepuff is earth, and Slytherin is water, hence the fact that their common room is under the lake.’

(re: post #2472)

And finally the Cup would be guarded by Earth Magic. The mascot of Hufflepuff is the Badger and a Badger is a creature of the Earth.-- Gerald Costales

‘This is an interesting idea. So if the Cup were at Hogwarts, it would be in the cellar somewhere. The kitchen, perhaps?’ Mrs. Brisbee

PS Phelim Mcintyre - I like the ideas you presented in your post #2552

Nathan Zimmermann - I liked the ideas you presented in your post #2553

PPS We’re all after the same thing, which is - What are the remaining Horcruxes?

But, we're all just using different paths to get to the same goal. ;-) GC

Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 7, 2006 9:25 am (#2557 of 2969)

Speaking of elemental magic and the TLC/Mugglenet interview:

"I wanted them to correspond roughly to the four elements. So Gryffindor is fire, Ravenclaw is air, Hufflepuff is earth, and Slytherin is water, hence the fact that their common room is under the lake.’

I find this interesting because, when Katie Bell came into contact with the necklace she screamed and the was levitated into the air. These spells remind me of the diary and the protections placed on it because both necklace and diary appear outwardly harmless and yet when the diary when the diary was written in or the necklace worn a great malice and festering evil lay hidden within.

juliebug - Oct 7, 2006 10:52 am (#2558 of 2969)

I've got nothing of significance to add to this discussion, but you are turning me into a believer about the opal necklace as a Horcrux theory. I hope you can share more insights.

S.E. Jones - Oct 7, 2006 4:35 pm (#2559 of 2969)

The main problem I see with the opal necklace being left by Ravenclaw is that it is cursed. Are we then assuming that Voldemort was the one to curse it so that it wouldn't be sold or touched (didn't Dumbledore say that Katie fell it simply because a hole in her glove allowed her to just briefly touch the necklace?)?

Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 7, 2006 4:57 pm (#2560 of 2969)
Edited Oct 7, 2006 5:57 pm

S.E., it is possible to argue the point of you advanced given the fact that the diary did not act as a normal Horcrux does, as Dumbledore pointed out. I think it is plausible that Voldemort acquired or came in contact with the necklace and discerned its origins transformed it from a mundane object into a Horcrux and laid upon it the protections you mentioned in your post.

Choices - Oct 7, 2006 5:08 pm (#2561 of 2969)

If what Dumbledore told us is true, that Voldemort used objects or things to make his Horcruxes that had special meaning for him, then what sort of special meaning did the necklace have for him? It ended up in Borgin and Burkes after 19 (? I think) Muggles had previously owned it. If Voldemort acquired it then, I am at a loss to figure how it could have been significant enough to him for him to make it a Horcrux.

S.E. Jones - Oct 7, 2006 5:29 pm (#2562 of 2969)

Choices, someone was suggesting that it had once belonged to Ravenclaw. If it did, then that would hold enough of a special meaning for him to use it.

Gerald Costales - Oct 7, 2006 5:54 pm (#2563 of 2969)
Edited Oct 7, 2006 6:56 pm

There is a Badger on Hufflepuff’s cup. And Gaunt’s/Slytherin’s Ring has the Peverell coat of arms engraved on the stone. (What that means will hopefully be revealed in Book 7.)

Outside of being Cursed - What proof do we have that the Opal Necklace was Ravenclaw’s?

I still think that if the Necklace was a Horcrux - Why leave the Necklace so available and unprotected? Anyone could have bought that Necklace and Counter-cursed it or whatever to make it useable again. ;-) GC

Gerald Costales - Oct 7, 2006 5:56 pm (#2564 of 2969)
Edited Oct 7, 2006 7:22 pm

Here’s the finished post I’ve been working on. ;-) GC

I asked this question in my post #2517 - Who kept the Diary at the end of "Chamber of Secrets"?

He looked into Harry’s face. ‘But it makes no difference. In fact I prefer it this way. Just you and me, Harry Potter… you and me…’ He raised the wand --- Then, in a rush of wings, Fawkes had soared back overhead and something fell into Harry’s lap --- the diary. For a split second, both Harry and Riddle, wand still raised, stared at it. The, without thinking, without considering, as though he had meant to do it all along, Harry seized the basilisk fang on the floor next to him and plunged it straight into the heart of the book. There was a long, dreadful, piercing scream. Ink spurted out of the diary in torrents, streaming over Harry’s hands, flooding the floor. Riddle was writhing and twisting, screaming and flailing and then --- He had gone. Harry’s wand fell to the floor with a clatter and there was silence. (page 322, CoS, American edition)

(re: post #2518)

‘Harry does ask Dumbledore if he can have the diary and Dumbledore gives it to him, but the last "person" to have the diary is Dobby. He opened it after Lucius handed it to him and saw the sock - he had gotten clothes from Malfoy and was free. What became of the diary after that is unknown.’ Choices

I doubt that Dobby kept the Diary. The Diary was useless. Also, Dobby became obsessed with Socks after Dobby gained his freedom. Harry could have kept the Diary as a Trophy or Memento. But, I think Harry was just happy from surviving his encounter with both the Basilisk and Tom Riddle.

If you eliminate Dobby and Harry, that would only leave Dumbledore as a candidate to have kept the Diary. So, I believe Dumbledore kept the Diary. Now, a Wizard like Dumbledore would want to understand how the Diary worked. How and when Dumbledore finally figured the Diary was a Horcrux; is anyone’s guess. But, I think that Summer after the CoS was reopened makes the most sense. That would have given Dumbledore about three years to gather the Memories Dumbledore showed Harry in the HBP. ;-) GC

‘At the beginning of HBP Dumbledore showed Slughorn Slytherin's Ring and it's cracked. Later in HBP is Slytherin's Ring cracked during the Pensieve scene with Tom and Slughorn? Didn't Tom have the Ring when Tom was asking Slughorn about Horcruxes?’ ;-) GC (from my post #2519)

(re: post #2520)

‘The ring wasn't cracked in the pensieve scene in either Morfin's memory or Slughorn's’ S.E. Jones

‘How do you destroy or at least render useless a Horcrux?’ (from my post #2522)

The Diary was rendered useless and destroyed with the poison from the Basilisk.

Now, the Ring was intact only having a cracked Black Stone. But, Dumbledore’s hand was charred and blacken while Dumbledore showed Slughorn Slytherin’s Ring.

So, was the Ring guarded by Fire Magic (explaining Dumbledore’s burnt hand) or was fire needed to destroy the Ring? The Ring is cracked either from what ever Magic was used against the Ring or Fire may have cracked the Black Stone mounted in the Ring.

I’m guessing that whatever Magic was used against the Ring cracked the Black Stone and that Dumbledore’s hand was burnt by Fire Magic guarding the Ring.

Which leaves one to wonder how the remaining Horcruxes are going to be destroyed or rendered useless. Dumbledore didn’t leave Harry a Counter-Horcrux spell, a Horcrux Destroying Instrument, Horcrux Dissolving Liquid, or anything else that we are aware of.

All Harry has are memories of Dumbledore and the Prophecy. ;-) GC

S.E. Jones - Oct 7, 2006 6:17 pm (#2565 of 2969)

Gerald --That would have given Dumbledore about three years to gather the Memories Dumbledore showed Harry in the HBP.--

Not necessarily. We know that Dumbledore said several times in HBP that he's spent a great many years digging into Voldemort's past and that some of the people whose memories he showed are now dead. I'm guessing that the majority of the memories he showed Harry were gathered long ago, and when he found out that Voldemort had made the diary into a Horcrux (and suspected it wasn't the only one) went back through them to see what objects may have disappeared around Voldemort. I think Slughorn's memory may have been the one most recently obtained.

Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 7, 2006 6:34 pm (#2566 of 2969)
Edited Oct 7, 2006 7:37 pm

A question Voldemort's original plan involved using Harry's murder to create Voldemort's sixth Horcrux. The question I have is what artifact could Voldemort have originally selected?

It seems as though Voldemort used Nagini to eventually create a sixth Horcrux using the murder of Frank Bryce out of desperation?

Gerald Costales - Oct 7, 2006 8:31 pm (#2567 of 2969)
Edited Oct 7, 2006 9:56 pm

"It seems as though Voldemort used Nagini to eventually create a sixth Horcrux using the murder of Frank Bryce out of desperation? Nathan Zimmermann

Nathan - I agree with this. But, I've wondered how a living thing, Nagini, could be a Horcrux. All the other Horcruxes or supposed Horcruxes are objects. My Daughter thinks that Nagini isn't a Horcrux and is a mistake. That another Horcrux will be found.

I feel that Blood will be a clue or key to finding the other Horcruxes. There's the Ancient Magic of Protection from Blood - and is the reason why Harry will return to the Dursleys' before the start of what would have been his 7th year. Also, in the Cave with the Lake, that had the Basin with the Green Liquid, Dumbledore needed to pay a tribute of Blood to allow them to enter and Harry needed to use his Blood to allow them to exit. (There are probably other Blood related clues but I can think of them now.)

I had thought that Dumbledore was tracking the Horcruxes in the order they were made. That would be the Diary first, the Ring second, the Locket third, and so on. I thought the Diary gave clues that lead to the Ring. The Ring gave clues to the Locket. And the Locket would give clues to the Cup.

The last statement, about finding the Cup, was based on the fact that a crystal cup was used to drain the Green Liquid. But, I've had second thoughts. I now think that by opening the Locket, Harry will be lead to the fourth Horcrux, and the fourth Horcrux will somehow provide a clue to finding the fifth Horcrux, and so on to the final Horcrux (which should have been a Gryffindor Horcrux, but was probably replaced by Nagini). ;-) GC

PS (re: post #2565) S.E Jones - Caught me again. Oh, well on to another post or thread. ;-) GC

Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 7, 2006 8:55 pm (#2568 of 2969)
Edited Oct 7, 2006 10:05 pm

GC, Dumbledore says that creating Horcrux within a living object although it is ill advised.

The term "Horcrux" is used to refer to any object in which a person has concealed a part of his or her soul. The object need not be inanimate; according to Dumbledore, a living creature can be used as a Horcrux, although it is risky to do so since the Horcrux in such a case is something that can move and think for itself, independently of the implanted fragment of soul. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

S.E. Jones - Oct 8, 2006 12:15 am (#2569 of 2969)

Nathan Zimmerman --A question Voldemort's original plan involved using Harry's murder to create Voldemort's sixth Horcrux. The question I have is what artifact could Voldemort have originally selected?--

That very question has been driving me nuts, especially lately. I've suggested before on the "Why did Dumbledore have James's Cloak?" thread that Dumbledore may have known that Voldemort was collecting things connected to Founders long before he knew what Voldemort was doing with them (he's known since he spoke to Tom Riddle at the orphanage that the guy collected little trophies) and so may have gone looking for some himself. If so, he may have found Gryffindor's sword and hid it in the hat for safe keeping. Now, depending on when and where he found the sword, Voldemort may have been planning on obtaining the sword at or around the time of the attack at Godric's Hollow.

Phelim Mcintyre - Oct 8, 2006 4:28 am (#2570 of 2969)

I have one problem with the opal as a Horcrux theory - and that is who does it connect to? It has also appeared too often when the other Horcrux appear just in the relevant book. I'm not saying it isn't but it could be too obvious.

I've been thinking about the Sorting Hat songs - Gryffindor from Moor, Slytherin from Fen, Hufflepuff - the Valleys, Ravenclaw - Glen.

The Fenland is that reclaimed from the sea in East Anglia. The Slytherin Locket was hidden in a cave surrounded by water. This ties in with the water element.

The Peverell ring was hidden at the Gaunt house and appears to be protected by fire.

The diary was placed under the keeping of the Malfoys. Does this suggest that Lucius is a distant (Peverell) relation of Voldemort’s?

While not a Horcrux the Gryffindor sword was hidden in the Sorting Hat (which according to the Hat was Gryffindor's). It has been suggested that the cup will be protected by earth magic. Could this be a plant like Devil's Snare or worse? Could Neville's expertise in Herbology play a part here? I think the Orphanage may be a good guess.

But what and were is the Ravenclaw artifact? If it is the wand in Ollivander's shop then it is unlikely that the wand is a Horcrux (unless Ollivander is a Death Eater). But where could it be hidden. A glen is narrow valley between hills or mountains. It is also a Celtic word so speaks of Scotland or Wales. Was a crown a symbol of air or intelligence in any myth?

Also thinking about protection on Horcrux and houses. Both potion masters we have seen represent Slytherin, as when Snape vanishes Slughorn takes his place. In Slughorn's memory it appears that he was head of Slytherin. Both heads of Gryffindor we have met (McGonagall and Dumbledore) were transfiguration professors. The head of Hufflepuff is the Herbology lecturer and the head of Ravenclaw teaches charms. Could this be a hint on the protections? The locket was help in some form of potion. I have suggested the Hufflepuff Cup being protected by some form of plant. What charm could be protecting the Ravenclaw Horcrux?

juliebug - Oct 8, 2006 5:54 am (#2571 of 2969)

Just because a person comes to acquire a Horcrux, it doesn't necessarily make them a Death Eater. It seems that some of the Horcruxes had less protection placed on them than others. Could an item found during the Vapormort years have been innocently collected by a witch or wizard? We know that the diary was left with Lucius Malfoy sometime before Halloween of 81. That I could tell, it didn't seem to be really protected in anyway, other than the fact that Malfoy had it. Could another such artifact have been left with a different DE? Maybe someone who died in Azkaban or by fighting Aurors. In that case, the item would no longer be protected. Just a thought.

Phelim Mcintyre - Oct 8, 2006 6:12 am (#2572 of 2969)
Edited Oct 8, 2006 7:12 am

Could that be the opal necklace? Someone (like but not Mrs. Black) who died and the necklace was taken to the shop?

I think the "artifacts" (locket, cup, ring) are or were protected by magical protection. The diary, and Nagini are/were not protected in this way. If the missing Horcrux (as in we don't know what it is) is a Ravenclaw artifact it follows that it is protected magically in someway. If it is not a Ravenclaw artifact then it may not be protected in the same way. But the diary seems to be a special case exception as Voldemort had other plans for it than just keeping a piece of his soul in it (I think).

juliebug - Oct 8, 2006 6:55 am (#2573 of 2969)
Edited Oct 8, 2006 7:55 am

Could the protection placed upon the opal necklace be the "curse" that the sign in Borgin and Burke's describes. Perhaps along with ownership, instruction are passed as to how to handle the necklace.

Meoshimo - Oct 8, 2006 8:34 am (#2574 of 2969)

A little belated, but...

(re: post #2541) ‘Keep in mind that Pettigrew was taught Dark magic, probably by Voldemort himself, and can do complicated magic like the Animagus Transformation.’ Meoshimo

(I think Peter learned the Animagus Transformation from the Marauders.) GC

Yes, you misunderstood me. I meant that he learned Dark magic from Lord Voldemort, but I wasn't implying that he learned the Animagus Transformation from him.

juliebug - Oct 8, 2006 8:44 am (#2575 of 2969)

I never thought that's what you meant, Meoshimo. Animagus transformation itself is not dark magic, just complicated. Lupin and Sirius also say PoA that James and Sirius helped Peter learn how to transform.

Meoshimo - Oct 8, 2006 8:56 am (#2576 of 2969)

My mistake; I thought you were correcting me Smile

Gerald Costales - Oct 8, 2006 11:04 am (#2577 of 2969)
Edited Oct 8, 2006 12:10 pm

(re: post #2541) Meoshimo - that was me. Looking at it now, I must have read it too fast. ;-) GC

PS Phelim Mcintyre - I like a lot of the ideas you presented in your post #2570. ;-) GC

Gerald Costales - Oct 8, 2006 2:48 pm (#2578 of 2969)
Edited Oct 8, 2006 3:53 pm

While trying to get more info on the Cursed Opal Necklace; I came across some very interesting facts. And, now I don’t think the Cursed Opal Necklace was at Borgin and Burke’s -

I still don’t know how the Death Eaters can possibly have entered ...’
‘I do,’ said Harry, and he explained, briefly, about the pair of Vanishing Cabinets and the magical pathway they formed. ‘So they got in through the Room of Requirement.’
Almost against his will he glanced from Ron and Hermione, both of them looked devastated.
‘I messed up, Harry,’ said Ron bleakly. ‘We did like you told us: We checked the Marauder’s Map and we couldn’t see Malfoy on it, so we thought he must be in the Room of Requirement, so me, Ginny, and Neville went to keep watch on it ... But Malfoy got past us.’ ‘He came out of the room about an hour after we started keeping watch,’ said Ginny. ‘He was on his own, clutching that awful shriveled arm ---’
’His Hand of Glory,’ Ron said... ‘Gives light to the holder, remember?’
‘Anyway,’ Ginny went on, ‘he must have been checking whether the coast was clear to let the Death Eaters out, because the moment he saw us he threw something into the air and it all went pitch-black ---’ (pages 617 & 618, HBP, American edition)

Also, I read chapter 6, Draco’s Detour (HBP) from page 125 to127. And it was only Hermione who mentioned anything about a necklace-

’Is this necklace for sale?’ she asked, pausing beside a glass- fronted case. (page 127, HBP, American edition)

And neither, Mr. Borgin or Draco mentioned the necklace. All Draco said was (said Malfoy.) ‘Well, I’d better be off. And don’t forget to keep that one safe, I’ll need it’ (page 125, HBP, American edition)

Upon my review of the HBP, it seems more likely that Malfoy wanted Mr. Borgin to save the Hand of Glory for him and not the necklace.

Here’s some more info.

Hand of Glory

A withered hand which, when a candle is inserted into it, gives light only to the holder (CoS4).

ï Draco Malfoy asked Lucius Malfoy to buy him one just before his second year (CoS4). Evidently he got it (HBP6). (Source: The Lexicon)

PS Just waiting for the dung bombs. ;-) GC

juliebug - Oct 8, 2006 2:54 pm (#2579 of 2969)
Edited Oct 8, 2006 3:57 pm

The thing that Draco was telling Borgin not to sell was the second vanishing cabinet. I don't think Draco brought the necklace to the school because he thought it was a Horcrux, I don't think he knows anything about Horcruxes. Draco tried to get the necklace to Dumbledore because it was a cursed necklace that would kill him.

S.E. Jones - Oct 8, 2006 3:09 pm (#2580 of 2969)
Edited Oct 8, 2006 4:49 pm

Gerald, there is a mention somewhere else of Draco having his Hand of Glory (OP? or beginning of HBP? before ch. 6) so I think he got it at some other point in the story before HBP started. We didn't see him buying the Hand, and Ron (I think it was him) knew about it, so if he has it, he must've bought it prior to that (that's my guess, at any rate). The necklace was mentioned in CoS so we know it was definitely at Borgin and Burke's.

Draco paused to examine a long coil of hangman's rope and to read, smirking, the card propped on a magnificent necklace of opals, Caution: Do Not Touch. Cursed - Has Claimed the Lives of Nineteen Muggle Owners to Date. (CoS4, 52, US)

P.S. Gerald, if you want to indent something, instead of using the "..... " you can use the tag <*blockquote>QUOTE. It will probably be a lot easier on you and easier to read as well. For other tags, you can review the Navigating the Forum thread.

juliebug - Oct 9, 2006 7:27 am (#2581 of 2969)

I think Madame Pomfrey may be right about the locket at Grimmauld Place not being the Horcrux. The description of the locket in OotP is a heavy metal locket which none of them could open. We know from the pensieve memory that the Slytherin locket is gold. It is possible the when JKR called the locket at the Black house metal that it is gold, but usually when I think of metal jewelry, it's silver-toned. It could also be that the gold locket was so dirty that nobody could tell it was gold, but that seems like we could be making too many assumptions.

S.E. Jones - Oct 9, 2006 12:55 pm (#2582 of 2969)
Edited Oct 9, 2006 1:55 pm

juliebug, I really this the locket at Grimmauld Place is the Horcrux for a few reasons, one of which was Jo's comment "that at least before the week is out, at least one of the Horcruxes will have been correctly identified by careful re-readers of the books" (from the TLC/Mugglenet interview) and the locket is the most obvious choice. And the line about it in OP was such a throwaway comment. The descriptions are also very similar, especially being called "heavy".

In OP it is described as simply a heavy locket that none of them could open (we're never told the finish) while in HBP it is described as a heavy gold(en) locket (HBP10 and 20), there has to be some reason both are described in such a way.

juliebug - Oct 9, 2006 1:25 pm (#2583 of 2969)

I did a reread in OotP. It does just say heavy locket. Back on the list.

T Vrana - Oct 9, 2006 5:30 pm (#2584 of 2969)

S.E.- I always took that quote to mean someone would identify a Horcrux we didn't know about. We know one of the Horcruxes is Slytherin's locket, another the cup. But you could be right.

I think it quite possible the locket Horcrux is still in the cave clutched in RAB's hand. Harry made note of all the other snakes engraved around Sirius house, but not on the locket? Also, wouldn't he remember seeing it just a year before?

Based on the experience DD and Harry had, RAB may have been dragged into the lake. Have posted elsewhere that the lake water could be Draught of living death which might accomplish what DD thought LV would want, to be able to question any intruders who got so far. Icky green potion weakens and makes thirsty. 'Draught of living death lake water' only liquid available to quench thirst. Inferi pulls 'living dead' witch or wizard into he lake for later questioning.

When Harry tries "Accio Horcrux" a body rises from the water. RAB still holding the locket?

Gerald Costales - Oct 10, 2006 5:57 am (#2585 of 2969)
Edited Oct 10, 2006 7:41 am

"When Harry tries "Accio Horcrux" a body rises from the water. RAB still holding the locket?" T Vrana

T Vrana - What a great thought.

Also, Dumbledore in the Cave tells Harry that Voldemort is afraid of death and darkness. My thought is that Voldemort had Death Eaters, like RAB, construct the protections in the Cave and fill the Lake with the Inferi

If RAB was given the task to help make the Cave intruder proof then that would explain his access to the Locket Horcrux. ;-) GC

T Vrana - Oct 10, 2006 8:36 am (#2586 of 2969)

Gerald- Thanks!

I do wonder, though, if LV would have trusted anyone with any information about his Horcruxes? Big risk if they decide to turn on him.

legolas returns - Oct 10, 2006 10:44 am (#2587 of 2969)
Edited Oct 10, 2006 11:50 am

If that was Regulus how did Sirius/Lupin know that he only lived for a few days after he deserted Voldemort? This suggests that at the very least Regulus body had the dark mark above him. The ministry would have investigated and removed the body. Or they got attacked by an Inferi army containing Regulus. Or they saw Regulus getting shot down and had to retreat so that they could not get the body. The last 2 would allow for him to be stored tidily in the lake along with the Horcrux.

Why were the Inferi in the lake if it was Draft of the living Death. All you would have to do is drink it. This was achieved by the green potion. What function do the Inferi play?

T Vrana - Oct 10, 2006 11:29 am (#2588 of 2969)
Edited Oct 10, 2006 1:33 pm

The Inferi would be step 3 in protecting the Horcrux, which, if I am right, they did. Without the Inferi RAB would still be on the island clutching the locket. DD and Harry would have been able to take it.

I'll have to look at what was said about Regulus' death. It could be that Sirius knew he was having second thoughts and then he disappeared, so it was assumed he was killed by LV.

Soul Search - Oct 10, 2006 2:31 pm (#2589 of 2969)

Dumbledore was there when Harry performed the "Accio Horcrux." I can't believe he would not have paid more attention to the Inferi if it was holding a Horcrux.

We do have the possibility that Dumbledore had been there before, knew there was something in the basin, and didn't consider other possibilities. "Accio Horcrux" is so obvious that Dumbledore didn't try it.

I do note, though, the Harry said "Accio Horcrux," not "Accio Locket." (Harry didn't know a locket was in the basin.) I don't think the Inferi had the locket Horcrux, but would consider it rather sneaky of Voldemort (and JKR) to have hidden two Horcruxes in the cave. Actually, hiding two Horcruxes in the same location would be rather clever.

Meoshimo - Oct 10, 2006 4:13 pm (#2590 of 2969)

It would also be reckless, if you ask me. There's too much chance that someone would find both Horcruxes.

shadzar - Oct 10, 2006 6:09 pm (#2591 of 2969)
Edited Oct 10, 2006 7:10 pm

DD nearly died getting the fake one. How much more could he have done to drain the lake and dredge the bottom for another Horcrux and evade the corpses?

Possibly the basin always contained a fake and the real one was always in the lake.

Also why look for a second when you only suspect one in that place?

How many orphans were brought down there? Two boys? Maybe those murders were used to create two Horcruxes and he left them there and made the corpse-people out of them? seems like something LV would do to commemorate their deaths for his own pleasure.

T Vrana - Oct 10, 2006 6:12 pm (#2592 of 2969)
Edited Oct 10, 2006 8:14 pm

Soul Search- a description of the 'body' coming out of the water

"...before Harry could see what it was, it had vanished again..."

I don't think there was time to see if RAB (?) was holding a Horcrux. Harry didn't even have time to see what it was that came out of the water. And I would say he is not an Inferi, but 'sleeping', draught of living death and all.

Meoshimo- I agree he would keep his Horcruxes in different locations.

Meoshimo - Oct 10, 2006 6:18 pm (#2593 of 2969)
Edited Oct 10, 2006 7:19 pm

Voldemort didn't kill those two children he brought into the cave.

I agree that it would be next to impossible to find two Horcruxes in the cave, but that's not the only place Lord Voldemort's Horcruxes are. It would be harder to find and get through two different locations for two Horcruxes than to get through one location and by chance find both. Voldemort would have made a big mistake in placing two Horcruxes in the same place. It would just be stupid to do so. Or maybe so stupid, it's clever?

cindysuewho45 - Oct 11, 2006 1:24 am (#2594 of 2969)
Edited Oct 11, 2006 3:16 am

Hi all, I'm going back to Oct 5th, for just a bit. We were talking about Horcruxes, and if there could or could not be any at Hogwarts. Because some feel that DD would have known about them if they were there. Because of DD's ability to see the mark that magic leaves behind, like he did in the cave. Some of you feel that DD knows every inch of Hogwarts and that a Horcruxes could not be there or DD would of known about it. I say that DD talks about being in the RoR the day that he had to go to the bathroom very bad. Or that DD talks about not knowing all of Hogwarts secrets, just the other day I went to go to the bathroom and a room just turned up out of nowhere for me to use. He was wondering if the room showed up when you need to go to the bathroom. Or if it just showed up at a certain time of day or night, or just at that time on that day??????? Something like this anyway, DD did wink at Harry because it was funny.

At no time did DD let on like he knew about what all the RoR would do or become. There would be as many rooms as there were needs. And I do not feel that DD had gone looking in all of them before he died, if at all. Now Harry did say that he remembered DD saying that he had been to the bathroom and that the RoR had to of been it. But Harry did not say that DD had been in to, or knew all about all the different rooms that it would become. The room where Harry hide the book was huge, and stacked from top to bottom, stuffed from side to side. It looked like things had lived in there at some point, it was so big. I do not believe that DD has looked all through this etc. etc. Seeing chamber pots and seeing all the other rooms are two different things. And I have to agree with some of you, I do not think that DD saw any Horcruxes when he went to the bathroom that morning. I also do not think that he was looking for them at this point in time, in the bathroom.

Also I was thinking that there will be a good plot about RAB. He could be sleeping in a very deep sleep, but I'm thinking that he is dead. How and what Sirius and Lupin know about RAB may play into the story more??? I have always felt that RAB took the necklace/locket, because like it says in the story, he knew that it was a Horcrux of LV's and he and LV had felt differently about things along the way. I feel that RAB had Kreacher help him, like DD had Harry with him. And that the RAB or Kreacher put the locket into that music box that played the dark music, that was putting everyone to sleep. Until Ginny had the good sense to stop it, by closing the box. Did the locket fall out of that dark arts music box or was it just in there with that box of stuff? Anyway I feel that Kreacher will have picked it up and put it down in his nest on the back side of the kitchen. And that is where Harry will end up finding it. Harry ,Ron and Hermione all know about it if they just stop and think about it. Maybe Harry will end up talking to Ginny at the wedding about things and she will remind him about the heavy locket that was at the Orders place, RAB's, Sirius' and Harry's house. We will see?????????

Phelim Mcintyre - Oct 11, 2006 3:54 am (#2595 of 2969)

In HbP, Lupin talks about Karkaroff's body being found with the dark mark over it, and that he had survived a longtime where Regulus Black had only survived a few days or weeks (can't remember the exact quote). I took this to mean that Regulus body had been found somewhere, this would make it unlikely that he was an Inferi in the cave.

T Vrana - Oct 11, 2006 5:07 am (#2596 of 2969)

You could be right, but we really do not know if there was a body, or he just disappeared.

Gerald Costales - Oct 11, 2006 7:18 am (#2597 of 2969)
Edited Oct 11, 2006 8:19 am

I think R.A.B/Regulus Black is dead. The Cave may contain clues to other Horcruxes, but I don’t think that Harry will be revisiting the Cave in Book 7. I’m basing the previous statement on the fact that when Chamber of Secrets was reopened in Book 2; Harry never revisited the Chamber again.

Also, in regards to the matter of Dumbledore never finding the Chamber of Secrets or other Dark Magical objects or things; Magical places can be Unplottable, etc., just like 12GP & Hogwarts or hidden from view like the Leaky Cauldron is for Muggles and MoM looks like an abandoned store to Wizards and Witches.

The fact is it doesn’t appear that Tom’s Diary was hidden or protected. Which allowed Lucius to simply slip the Diary into Ginny’s book bag.

When it was discussed a while back, many people thought that Lucius didn't know he had a Horcrux. Could Voldemort have just given Lucius his Diary for safekeeping? Could Voldemort have simply just said, "Here Lucius hold this Diary and keep it safe for me. I’m off to kill the Potters tonight!’

We know that Lucius is tightlipped about his secrets and that Voldemort doesn’t really trust anyone. So, I cannot understand - How? or Why? Lucius had or received the Diary. I can see Lucius taking the Diary after Voldemort became Vapormort. But, how would Lucius have known, first that there was a Diary or where the Diary was?

If the Diary was that valuable, a holder of a fraction of Voldemort’s soul - Why be so lax and careless with the Diary? (For that matter, this is the same way I feel about the Opal Necklace - Why be so lax and careless with a Horcrux? If indeed, the Opal Necklace is a Horcrux?)

One thing I’ve noticed is that three of the Horcruxes are marked - The Ring/the Peverell coat of arms engraved on the stone, The Locket/Slytherin’s Mark, an Ornate Serpentine S, and The Cup/a Badger engraved on it.

‘The Peverell coat of arms engraved on the stone’, link to Slytherin has not really been established. So, one could question if the Ring is really a Slytherin artifact. But, the fact that Marvolo Gaunt had the Ring is proof enough for me. And Marvolo Gaunt has definitely been established as Voldemort’s Grandfather.

I’m wondering if a Ravenclaw or Gryffindor artifact could simply and easily be identified with either a Bird, Raven’s Claw, Lion, Ornate R, or Ornate G engraved, etched, etc. on it? That would save Harry, Ron, and Hermione a lot of time in Book 7. And allow more time in Book 7 for the Great and Final Task of the Destruction of Voldemort and the Death Eaters. ;-) GC

PS I want to see Snape get it in Book7. AK’d by Voldemort himself. Stabbed in the back with Wormtail’s Shiny Silver Hand. Or may be Snape taking an AK meant for Harry and with his dying breath confessing his unrequited Love for Lily (the true reason he hated James.) ;-) GC

T Vrana - Oct 11, 2006 7:38 am (#2598 of 2969)

Harry never revisited the Chamber again

Not yet, anyway...

I'm betting all my galleons that the reaction Harry got from his Accio is because there is a Horcrux there. All my knuts that it is the locket...

S.E. Jones - Oct 11, 2006 1:18 pm (#2599 of 2969)

I think the fact that the ring had the Peverell coat of arms and the fact that Slytherin's last remaining descendents were named Gaunt, just goes to show how lines change over time (Hufflepuffs descendents were named Smith), especially as you consider most families don't have a borage of sons like the Weasleys do. I think this will become important as Harry tries to track down the last descendents of Ravenclaw (for which I think he might be needing something like that wizarding genealogy book that we saw at the Black house).

Have we seen anything in the bird on it somewhere before? I'm sure there's all sorts of things in Hogwarts with house crests on them, so it would be hard to tell what was simply marked for the house and what once belonged to a Founder.

I'm a little uncertain why everyone is so sure there's a Horcrux at Hogwarts. Yes, Voldemort did want a position there so he could look for relics belonging to Founders, but was turned away. He was there looking for something to turn into a Horcrux not for a place to hide one, right? When do you think a Horcrux would have been hidden there?

Mrs Brisbee - Oct 11, 2006 1:49 pm (#2600 of 2969)

I'm a little uncertain why everyone is so sure there's a Horcrux at Hogwarts. Yes, Voldemort did want a position there so he could look for relics belonging to Founders, but was turned away. He was there looking for something to turn into a Horcrux not for a place to hide one, right? When do you think a Horcrux would have been hidden there?

I strongly suspect a Horcrux at Hogwarts because Voldemort seems to like placing his Horcruxes at locations that were significant to him. The ring was hidden in the Gaunt house. The locket was in the cave near he used his new found powers to torture his fellow orphans. The diary was designed to eventually return to Hogwarts and reopen the Chamber of Secrets. The other hiding places should also be discernible from his past. Dumbledore emphasized how much Voldemort considered Hogwarts to be home. It seems like a good choice, especially for a Founders' object like Helga Hufflepuff's cup.

Unfortunately, he could have hid it in Hogwarts at almost any point in time. We've seen that Hogwarts isn't secure from unwanted visitors on many occasions. In recent years, Voldemort has gotten in attached to Quirrell, Sirius Black made it in despite heightened security measures, Barty Crouch Jr got in polymorphed into someone else. And Steve Newton pointed out in the HBP read along that the Vanishing Cabinet was only smashed in CoS. It is quite possible that an open door between Borgin and Burkes and Hogwarts existed up until that point. Voldemort being able to get in, or sending an underling in, to place a Horcrux is very possible.

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Thom Matheson - Oct 11, 2006 4:29 pm (#2601 of 2969)

Mrs. Brisbee, I think the diary got back to Hogwarts because Lucius was stupid and tried to frame a Weasley. I don't for a minute think that Lucius knew about Horcruxes. He just wanted the diary to open the Chamber so as to, dismiss Dumbledore, put Hagrid in Azkaban, close the school and blame it all on the Weasley family. For me that was explained by Voldemort in rebirthing scene I believe. AS far as getting in to the school with an underling, after Lucius' mistake I don't believe that Voldemort would trust something of that magnitude with anyone other then himself.

There is an old Roman saying regarding trusting those that are close to you that says, "Better to know your enemies then to not know your friends". We have been told over and over again that Voldemort did not trust anyone. With his Horcruxes I am positive that he has always acted alone.

Gerald Costales - Oct 11, 2006 4:34 pm (#2602 of 2969)
Edited Oct 11, 2006 5:37 pm

"It is quite possible that an open door between Borgin and Burkes and Hogwarts existed up until that point. Voldemort being able to get in, or sending an underling in, to place a Horcrux is very possible."

I've thought of this possibility also. But, I still don't think a Horcrux will be found on Hogwarts. ;-) GC

PS I agree with Thom Matheson's post too.

Choices - Oct 11, 2006 5:32 pm (#2603 of 2969)

S.E. Jones - "When do you think a Horcrux would have been hidden there?"

I always remember that we are told in book one when Malfoy challenges Harry to the midnight duel in the Trophy Room - I think it is Malfoy who says that the Trophy Room is never locked. That means someone could have access to it day and night. Excellent opportunity to hide something (say a cup) in the cases that hold lots of cups and other trophies.

Thom - "Mrs. Brisbee, I think the diary got back to Hogwarts because Lucius was stupid and tried to frame a Weasley."

I don't think Lucius knew the diary was a Horcrux, but he did know that Voldemort wanted the diary to go to Hogwarts so someone else could finish Slytherin's noble work. That was the whole purpose of the diary, in addition to being Voldemort's first Horcrux, to allow him to work through another student to rid the school of "undesirables".

Thom Matheson - Oct 11, 2006 6:17 pm (#2604 of 2969)

I agree with you that that is what he wrote the diary for, but Lucius had it in his care. Voldemort didn't tell Lucius that I want you to get this back to the school in 12 years if I don't come back from the Potter's. Lucius took it upon himself to put the diary in Ginny's cauldron not knowing what the consequences would be or that a Horcrux was hidden within.

We are told that Voldemort was pretty cheesed when he found out what Lucius had done.

Magic Words - Oct 11, 2006 8:50 pm (#2605 of 2969)

Going back a few posts, there's a different train of thought (as if we need another one) but something it might be interesting to consider. Leaving aside for a moment the identities of the Horcruxes, where might Voldemort have hidden them?

• ring - Gaunt House
• locket - the cave
• diary - with Lucius Malfoy
• Nagini - with Voldemort
• cup - ???
• unknown - ???

What other places might be significant to him? Hogwarts. The Riddle House. Probably not Godric's Hollow or the orphanage. What about the home of Hepzibah Smith? Borgin and Burkes? And, of course, with other Death Eaters is always a possibility.

Mrs Brisbee - Oct 11, 2006 8:53 pm (#2606 of 2969)
Edited Oct 11, 2006 9:57 pm

I don't think Lucius knew the diary was a Horcrux, but he did know that Voldemort wanted the diary to go to Hogwarts so someone else could finish Slytherin's noble work. That was the whole purpose of the diary, in addition to being Voldemort's first Horcrux, to allow him to work through another student to rid the school of "undesirables". --Choices

Yes, thank you, Choices. That is what I meant. Voldemort designed the diary so someday it would be used at Hogwarts. Lucius messed up by using it for his own purposes. So the diary did have a tie to a specific important location-- Hogwarts.

Anyway, two other reasons to suspect Hogwarts as a site are the DADA curse and literary purposes.

Voldemort has cursed the DADA position. That's a pretty amorphous curse. But I see the curse as if he has somehow gained the ability to alter the DADA professor's contract. What could possibly give him the power to do such a thing? The Imperius Curses he had people under reportedly lifted after Godric's Hollow, the Dark Marks seem to have faded from the Death Eaters' arms, but the DADA curse seems to have hummed along merrily all the while Voldemort sulked in his vapor form. So I have to suspect that Voldemort has an item that allows him to effect the DADA contract even when he has been rendered near powerless. And what better object than Hufflepuff's cup-- that reputedly has unknown powers-- or one of the other Founders' objects that he is suspected of having turned into Horcruxes. I'm willing to bet that whatever is causing the curse at Hogwarts is lurking on site.

Literary reasons, simply that Hogwarts is too good of a set. The plot needs to weave together in the final book, come full circle, whatever you wish to call it.

What other places might be significant to him? -- Magic Words

The list of certain places is pretty short.

The only thing I can think to add is the remote possibility that the Peverell name is somehow significant, and there might be a Peverell family estate somewhere that might interest Voldemort because of a family connection. But I do think that is remote.

S.E. Jones - Oct 11, 2006 10:11 pm (#2607 of 2969)

Magic Words --What other places might be significant to him? Hogwarts. The Riddle House. Probably not Godric's Hollow or the orphanage.--

Why not the orphanage? He put the locket in a cave probably near where he visited as an orphan with the other kids from the orphanage, so it isn't unreasonable that he might leave something in the place he spent so much time in. It is where he found out he was a wizard, after all. There's also the other place the orphans visited on holiday which was someplace in the country (which I think may be the place to find Hufflepuff's cup).

Phelim Mcintyre - Oct 12, 2006 12:13 am (#2608 of 2969)

One of the reasons a Horcrux, especially the Hufflepuff Cup, could be at Hogwarts is that it could easily be hidden without too many charms to attract Dumbledore's (or anyone else’s) attention. A case of you can't see the wood for the trees. And a cup with magical properties - could be just one of many. But as Dumbledore has the memory with an image of the cup he may have checked the trophy room just to make sure. For this reason I don't think the Hufflepuff Cup is at Hogwarts (unless its in a greenhouse or the Forbidden forest) but I'm not ruling out another Horcrux (Ravenclaw?) being there.

I think the Cup could be at the Orphanage protected by a man-eating plant or similar earth magic.

DM Havox - Oct 12, 2006 11:18 am (#2609 of 2969)
Edited Oct 12, 2006 12:40 pm

I agree with Mrs Brisbee in the placement of the Hufflepuff's Cup at Hogwarts. I just think the RoR(Room of Requirement) in it's (for lack of a better term) place to hide something configuration would be best. It is obvious that a multitude of Hogwarts students and staff have used it for a long time; Harry for HBP's Potions book, Malfoy for the vanishing cabinet, Prof. Trelawney for her cherry bottles. Why not LV?

It is an established location (I just think adding a new location would be a stretch for the last book, too much to tie up and all), and it would coincide with the DADA curse. Also with Dumbledore (debate-ably) out of the way, I can see LV's vie for Hogwarts drawing Harry back there.

Maybe the power of the cup also plays in the DADA curse? We are not really sure what powers the cup has. Providing the drinker with something they want? Or preventing others from acquiring it? All up for debate. Just throwing out the possibility.

T Vrana - Oct 12, 2006 11:23 am (#2610 of 2969)

Small thing, but I don't think Malfoy put the vanishing cabinet in the RoR. I would think the Vanishing cabinet was moved, by Filch, to the RoR after Montague got stuck in it. If Malfoy moved it, wouldn't they notice it missing?

DM Havox - Oct 12, 2006 11:54 am (#2611 of 2969)

T Vrana, that is a good point. We know that Malfoy at least knew the location of the cabinet at the beginning of the book when he has the conversation with Mr. B. in B&B's. Not sure if he put it there, or found it there? Might have asked Filch near the end of OTP while he was part of the Inquisitorial Squad? Where exactly did the cabinet reappear? We know Montague got all jacked up when he Apparated out of it. I forget exactly where Fred and George said they shoved him in at, 5th or 7th floor I believe, but I may be wrong. We do know the fact that Malfoy did know its location.

The night DD and Harry go to the cave, Harry is summoned to DD's office and runs into Trelawney on the way and she can't get inside the RoR. She was trying to hide sherry bottles and was ejected from the room by Malfoy. When Harry hid the HBP's potion book, he saw the vanishing cabinet in the RoR. This happened before we find out that Malfoy was attempting to fix the cabinet, so the Cabinet has to be placed in the RoR.

Choices - Oct 12, 2006 12:24 pm (#2612 of 2969)

I think down in the Chamber of Secrets might be a good hiding place for a Voldemort Horcrux. The chamber was created by Voldemort's ancestor and it can only be opened by someone who is a Parselmouth, so it would be safe. Voldemort himself opened the chamber when he was at school - I think it has a lot going for it as to sentimental value, history, safety, etc.

Gerald Costales - Oct 12, 2006 3:47 pm (#2613 of 2969)
Edited Oct 12, 2006 4:49 pm

I strongly believe that on October 31st, Voldemort planned to create his 6th and the final Horcrux. Given that the Potters lived in Godric Hollow, it leads me to believe a Gryffindor Horcrux was to be created.

Dumbledore had James’ Cloak. I’m thinking that for some reason maybe James also had Gryffindor’s Sword. Like Lucius had Tom’s Diary. I don’t think the Potters were necessarily related to Gryffindor; just like Lucius is not related to Voldemort.

The Cave, Hogwarts and even Borgin & Burkes may be other places of interests for us Horcrux Hunters. But my feeling is that Harry will find what he needs in the ruins of the Potter’s home.

I believe Kreacher will provide clues to the Locket. So, 12 GP is another place Harry will visit. I think that another clue will be inside the Locket when it is opened. (Not really a new idea.)

We will find out more about R.A.B. (What that will be, I have not a clue and also I am not willing even to guess. I am strongly am leaning to the idea that R.A.B. was Regulus Black. Again, not really a new idea.)

The Marauders and Peter knew of ways to get in and out of Hogwarts. Tunnels lead to the Shrieking Shack and to the basement of Honeydukes. I think there is a third tunnel and the Twins said one tunnel is collapsed.

But, I still think there aren’t any Horcruxes at Hogwarts. In the 6th Book JKR introduced several new people, places, and things. I think JKR will introduce some new people, places, and things in the 7th Book and still be able to wrap every up. ;-) GC

T Vrana - Oct 12, 2006 3:51 pm (#2614 of 2969)
Edited Oct 12, 2006 5:20 pm

DM- He may not have known exactly where it was when he was at Borgin and Burke's, just that it was at Hogwarts. He could have asked Filch when he discovered it was not where it used to be. If it was put there by Malfoy, would the RoR have all that other stuff? Would he have thought, I need a place to fix the cabinet? In that case, no. If he thought, I need a place to hide the cabinet while I fix it, I think yes.

Could Filch have put it there, I need a place to store this worthless cabinet...

Why would they even have such a cabinet at Hogwarts.....

Now a Horcrux at Hogwarts makes sense. But did LV get a chance to put one there, or was his 6th and final Horcrux meant to be there. And is his final Horcrux Harry, and at Hogwarts, unintentionally. I know it had been discussed some time ago, but we really don't have any explanation as to why Harry can speak Parseltongue and feel LV's feelings. Is this why DD has kept such a close eye on Harry all this time, to see who would win, Harry's mom's love, or LV's bit of soul? DD would not want to harm baby Harry even if he suspected he was a Horcrux. He would want to give him a chance to choose.

EDIT- If Harry is a Horcrux of sorts, I don't think he is a 'real' Horcrux, but that LV's preparations to make a Horcrux, and the murders allowed for a Horcrux like event, with Harry ending up with a bit of LV's soul.

Choices - Oct 12, 2006 5:06 pm (#2615 of 2969)

Gerald - "I’m thinking that for some reason maybe James also had Gryffindor’s Sword. Like Lucius had Tom’s Diary. I don’t think the Potters were necessarily related to Gryffindor; just like Lucius is not related to Voldemort."

But, Voldemort gave Lucius the diary. If the Potters are not related to Gryffindor, then who gave them the sword? Why would they have had it? Wouldn't it be more logical if someone had a sword that belonged to Godric Gryffindor, to either keep it in their family or donate it to Hogwarts, to keep it safe and preserve it, since Gryffindor is so well known in connection to the school? Why give a Godric Gryffindor relic to two people (James and Lily) who possibly have no connection to Gryffindor at all?

S.E. Jones - Oct 12, 2006 8:33 pm (#2616 of 2969)

Choices --If the Potters are not related to Gryffindor, then who gave them the sword? Why would they have had it?--

Well, Hepzibah Smith wasn't related to Salazar Slytherin, but she still took the opportunity to collect Slytherin's locket. Maybe the Potters were collectors as well. We know the Black house had some serpentine doorknockers, doorknobs, etc, so maybe the Potters held to their Gryffindor roots the same way the Blacks held to their Slytherin roots and took the opportunity to buy Gryffindor's sword when it arose?

S.E. Jones - Oct 12, 2006 9:49 pm (#2617 of 2969)
Edited Oct 12, 2006 10:53 pm

Does anyone think the locket Horcrux is going to be harder to track down than initially thought? Even if it were the one at 12 Grimmauld Place, we know that it was in a pile of stuff to be thrown out by Sirius so it could be in a wizarding land-fill somewhere, Kreacher was digging through stuff they were trying to throw out so it could be in his little nest or with him at Hogwarts, Mundungus has pinched some of Sirius's stuff and is pawning it off to those who'll buy it so it could be with him in Azkaban (I doubt it, but Harry may have to travel there to see him or wait until he gets out to find out what happened to it), confiscated by the Ministry (when they arrested him), in some hidey-hole somewhere where Dung thought it'd be safe, or has been sold to someone, we also know that Dung was trying to barter with the barman of the Hogs Head (which seems to be Aberforth) so he might have it. What seemed so darn straight forward with the locket being at 12 Grimmauld Place could end up taking a good part of the book to track down.....

Phelim Mcintyre - Oct 13, 2006 12:06 am (#2618 of 2969)

Hasn't Dumbledore stated that the only known Gryffindor artifact (the sword) was safe and not a Horcrux.

S.E. Jones - Oct 13, 2006 12:22 am (#2619 of 2969)
Edited Oct 13, 2006 1:24 am

Phelim Mcintyre --Hasn't Dumbledore stated that the only known Gryffindor artifact (the sword) was safe and not a Horcrux.--

Phelim, we weren't saying the sword is a Horcrux, but Gerald was theorizing (as have I in the past on this thread) that Voldemort may have been intending to use the sword to make Horcrux #6, which we know he never got to do because the AK backfired.

shadzar - Oct 13, 2006 2:56 am (#2620 of 2969)

As silly as it may sound...could not an artifact be from all 4 founders and be even more of a trophy to LV than the sword, or locket, or cup?

There is one ancient that "belonged" to all four Hogwarts founders. Other than the sorting hat that is. That is Hogwarts itself.

Any chance the school is a Horcrux? If so how would Harry go about destroying it? LV could have thought that since it was the school, no one would try to destroy it. Close it for a while maybe, but not demolish it or remove all its magical enhancements. Seems like a good place to hide one to me. No one could find the CoS because all the strong magic already employed in the school. How hard would it be to find out a part of a soul was hidden within it?

Phelim Mcintyre - Oct 13, 2006 3:21 am (#2621 of 2969)

Concerning Voldemort wanted to make the Gryffindor Sword into a Horcrux. The sword as in the Sorting Hat. If the sword was with the Potter's how did it get into the hat? I think the point about Godric's Hollow is the attempted murder of the "chosen one" of prophecy rather than the object being made into a Horcrux.

juliebug - Oct 13, 2006 4:07 am (#2622 of 2969)
Edited Oct 13, 2006 5:08 am

The sorting hat had been sitting on a shelf in Dumbledore's almost all the time for many years. Wouldn't Dumbledore's "spidey sense" have kicked in at some point. He told Harry in the cave about being able to feel the effects of magic coming off of an object. He said something to the effect of being able to recognize Voldemort's work. I don't think a Horcrux could have been hiding right under Dumbledore's nose. I don't even think they're at Hogwarts.

T Vrana - Oct 13, 2006 5:31 am (#2623 of 2969)

The level of magic at Hogwarts may mask that thrown off by a Horcrux. Big, castle, lots of magic. Consider trying to use infrared to detect a person in a city, versus in a forest.

Gerald Costales - Oct 13, 2006 5:35 am (#2624 of 2969)
Edited Oct 13, 2006 6:38 am

(re: post #2614)

‘I know it had been discussed some time ago, but we really don't have any explanation as to why Harry can speak Parseltongue and feel LV's feelings.’ T Vrana

From Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire

Dumbledore looked very intensely at Harry for a moment, and then said, "I have a theory, no more than that ... It is my belief that your scar hurts both when Lord Voldemort is near you, and when he is feeling a particularly strong surge of hatred." "But ... why?" "Because you and he are connected by the curse that failed," said Dumbledore. "That is no ordinary scar." (GF30) (Source: the Lexicon)

PS I'll be posting more later. Just wanted to clarify a point made on T Vrana's post #2614. ;-) GC

T Vrana - Oct 13, 2006 6:00 am (#2625 of 2969)

Gerald-

Yes, but what is that connection?!? Was there a bit of LV's soul torn free from the murders of James & Lily, and was he preparing to make a Horcrux, and is Harry's scar, more than a scar.

"That is no ordinary scar."

This really doesn't answer what the connection is and why, just that it is the result of the failed curse. How and why it works is unknown. The curse failed, and they are connected, but why did that failure forge a connection?

The theme of love being the strongest magic, and choice, lead me to wonder if Harry has a portion of LV's soul, but his mothers love and sacrifice, gives him the power to love and do what is right, where LV's mother did not love him enough to survive for him.

It seems to me DD has kept a very close eye on Harry, believing, perhaps, that Lily's love can save Harry from the bit of LV, but not knowing for sure. There are several instances in the books when DD seems to be looking at Harry as though trying to decipher him. Then we have, DD's man through and through, and how happy DD is to hear that. Did he worry Harry may choose another path because of the connection forged with LV, because he indeed is a human Horcrux of sorts. DD did say a living being can be a Horcrux.

The Sorting Hat did consider Slytherin...

Again, what exactly is that connection. I don't think we know from what DD said. Still too vague an answer.

Gerald Costales - Oct 13, 2006 6:47 am (#2626 of 2969)

ï The minor arcana, consisting of 56 cards (sometimes referred to as pips): o Forty cards in four different suits of ten ó traditionally batons or wands, cups, swords, coins or pentacles (Source: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

T Vrana - Oct 13, 2006 7:02 am (#2627 of 2969)
Edited Oct 13, 2006 8:02 am

Anyone familiar with tarot cards? I'm not. Is the Lightning Struck Tower a real card? Is there a connection between Harry's lightning scar, and The Lightning Struck Tower (LV struck DD).

Not an ordinary scar, a Horcrux (sort of)?

Gerald Costales - Oct 13, 2006 7:49 am (#2628 of 2969)

(re: post #2626)

Again, oops. I was trying to post an image. But as you can see it didn't work.

More later. My next post will be complete and hopefully thought provoking. ;-) GC

DM Havox - Oct 13, 2006 7:50 am (#2629 of 2969)
Edited Oct 13, 2006 8:55 am

Part 1, I have a lot to cover.

Ok here is all I could find on the Lightning Struck tower... thanks to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tower_%28Tarot_card%29). I know this post is a bit off topic of Horcruxes. but it was asked so... and I believe is has relevance to the Horcrux issue.

I found this interesting

"Some frequent key words are:

Chaos ----- Sudden change ----- Impact ----- Hard times

Crisis ----- Revelation ----- Disruption ----- Realizing the truth

Disillusion ----- Crash ----- Burst ----- Uncomfortable experience

Downfall ----- Ruin ----- Ego blow ----- Explosive transformation "

Definitely what the wizarding world is going through. Most people felt safe knowing DD was out there and that LV was fearful of him. Now the shift moves that LV is felt to be the most powerful. The evil side seems to be gaining control.

Here is the description of the card itself

"A tower has just been hit by lightning and is aflame. The top of the tower is crumbling and falling to the ground beneath. In some decks, two figures fall from the top of the tower (sounds familiar), in others, the people themselves are on the ground in flames or are themselves hit by the lightning, sometimes they are simply onlookers to the fire."

No real explanation needed for that one

Here is a bunch of information concerning the interpretation of the card.

To some, It symbolises failure, ruin and catastrophe. To others, the Tower represents the Paradigms constructed by the Ego, the sum total of all Schema which the mind constructs to understand the universe. The Tower is struck by lightning when Reality does not conform to expectation. Epiphanies, transcendental states of consciousness, and Kundalini experiences may result.

Harry realizes what he has to do. Harry know knows that he has to leave his "childhood" behind. He knows that, via the prophecy, he is the one that has to vanquish LV. His last protector has left him, as is the typical path of the hero (can go into it if anyone desires but that is a bit off the Horcrux topic, as I feel this post is a bit off topic, but necessary)

Another bit of interesting meaning within the cards.

"Each card in the Major Arcana is a result of the previous. After the self bondage of The Devil life is self correcting. Either the Querrant needs to make changes in their own life or they will be made for them. The Querrant may be holding on to false ideas or pretenses; a new approach to thinking about the problem is needed. The Querrant is advised to think outside the box. The Querrant is warned that truth may not oblige schema. It may be time for the Querrant to re-examine belief structures, ideologies, and paradigms they participate in. Card may also point towards seeking education or higher knowledge."

Is the change Harry's return to Hogwarts but with "privileges" Supposing McGonagall is the headmistress, will she allow he trio to come and go from Hogwarts as they please? Sorry for still being stuck on the idea that Harry will need to return to Hogwarts.

P.S. Take the link and enjoy the trivia at the bottom, I did.

T Vrana - Oct 13, 2006 8:03 am (#2630 of 2969)

DM Havox- Thanks! So much of this applies to Harry, the WW, DD.

But looking at DD:

The Tower is struck by lightning when Reality does not conform to expectation.

Oh, no! This could impact my belief that Snape is not truly evil.

Linking it to Horcruxes, LV (lightning) has struck at the highest power in the WW (DD-tower), and Harry's scar is lightning bolt shaped. Connection?

DM Havox - Oct 13, 2006 8:35 am (#2631 of 2969)
Edited Oct 13, 2006 9:38 am

Part 2

Harry has the powers because of the prophecy. LV marked him as his equal and he will have powers the Dark Lord will know not. He has the power of love, which LV does not have.

As for things being hidden at Hogwarts, The CoS was hidden and was only ever accessed by 3 people: Slytherin (he had to make it), LV the Heir of Slytherin, and Harry, because he was transferred LV powers and gifts. I do not believe Harry is a Horcrux. I think he has the powers of LV because of the prophecy. He can do what LV can do because he is LV's equal.

The Sorting hat is no Horcrux. The inventor of the HP Universe, squashed that on her rumors page. listed under the picture of the Dark mark, and dated 25/12/05. No idea how to link to it.

I noticed the way our beloved writer slips little details of info in the story that later become larger. My best example would be Sirius being mentioned in passing in the first chapters of SS (or PS whatever you prefer). I am sticking by the idea that a Horcrux is located in the RoR. I mean, you have to think, I need a place to hide something. Kind of fits JKR’s style, hide it under our noses right? I am fairly sure that one of the only people to find the CoS would also have found the RoR. It is a bit of a stretch to think that Tom Riddle scoured the castle for the CoS and did not stumble onto many other secrets of the castle at the same time. LV could have dropped off the Horcrux during his visit to claim the DADA position, leaving the Horcrux and cursing the position. Maybe he used whatever the Horcrux was to curse the position. I just believe the LV's curse on the DADA position is tied with the Horcrux. Remember how large the RoR's hiding room was?

HBP pgs 526-527

He gasped. ... He was standing in a room the size of a large cathedral, whose high windows were sending shafts of light down upon what looked like a city with towering walls, built of what Harry knew must be objects hidden by generations of Hogwarts inhabitants. ... There were thousands and thousands of books, no doubt banned or graffitied or stolen... Harry hurried forward... He turned right past and enormous stuffed troll, ran on a short way, took a left at the broken Vanishing Cabinet in which Montague had got lost the previous year, finally pausing ...

Here we have one of the rare mentions of banned books, which I would speculate would have been a plethora of information to a young Tom Riddle. Supposing TR learned how to create a Horcrux in one of the thousands of books found here, it would make this place very significant to him indeed. The diary Horcrux tied LV to the CoS. The ring tied TR to the Peverell family via the Gaunt house. The Locket tied the cave where a very young TR learned to use magic against other people. I believe a founder’s object would tie TR to the place he learned to create a Horcrux.

T Vrana - I love the connection of the Lightning Struck Towers meaning to Snape! I never thought of that at all! Fits with the whole story doesn't it? Maybe the whole lightning Struck Tower Card could be a basis for a new thread? A ton of meanings to explore with it. Excellent!

T Vrana - Oct 13, 2006 8:48 am (#2632 of 2969)

DM I do not believe Harry is a Horcrux. I think he has the powers of LV because of the prophecy. He can do what LV can do because he is LV's equal.

He has the powers, I think, because LV acted on the prophecy, not just because the prophecy was made. In acting on the prophecy, LV inadvertently transferred some of his powers to Harry. But the question remains, how? What actually took place to allow such a thing? The prophecy can't make anything happen. The actions of those involved determine the outcome. If LV had never heard the prophecy, nothing would have happened. If Lily had not sacrificed herself, Harry would have died, no power transfer. If LV himself had not tried to kill Harry, but assigned it to someone else, no transfer of power. I see prophesies as possibilities, but it takes human action to bring them to reality.

So, something had to happen to make the prophecy true. The bit of soul seems quite possible given that DD thought LV was using Harry's murder to create a 6th and final Horcrux, and Harry emerges with some of LV’s powers, is chosen by a brother wand of LV's, Sorting Hat wants to put him in Slytherin. A transfer took place, but how...little bit of soul?

Rambling, sorry...

Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 13, 2006 10:34 am (#2633 of 2969)

T Vrana, Lightning Struck Tower or simply the Tower card is a real card it usually numbered sixteenth in the order of the Major Arcana, The card also represent a sudden radical transformation, a catharsis

I would argue is what Harry undergoes a cathartic series of events beginning on the Astronomy Tower in the following way

Harry realizes that there is some good within Malfoy

Even though Harry believes Snape to be a murderer their may occur an event which will put things into a different perspective this is already occurring in the aftermath of Snape admonition to Harry close both his mouth and mind.

Harry understands the impact that the fake locket Horcrux has on him, in the sense that he now understands what his purpose and mission for book seven will be.

S.E. Jones - Oct 13, 2006 1:40 pm (#2634 of 2969)
Edited Oct 13, 2006 2:41 pm

Phelim Mcintyre --Concerning Voldemort wanted to make the Gryffindor Sword into a Horcrux. The sword was in the Sorting Hat. If the sword was with the Potter's how did it get into the hat? I think the point about Godric's Hollow is the attempted murder of the "chosen one" of prophecy rather than the object being made into a Horcrux.--

Yes, but the question still remains of what did Voldemort intend to make his sixth Horcrux out of? We know it wasn't always supposed to be Nagini (I don't think snakes live quite that long). We know he already has something of Ravenclaw's or Gryffindor's (Dumbledore says the sword is the only known relic of Gryffindor's so it's probably Ravenclaw's) so it would makes sense for Voldemort to want to get ahold of the sword for his last Horcrux. The sword was in the hat, but for how long? Did Gryffindor himself put it there, or did Dumbledore, knowing that Voldemort was after relics belonging to the Founders (although not necessarily knowing why), track it down and take it from the then current owners to hide it safely in the hat? It's pure theory, and a need to link Harry to Godric Gryffindor(the Potters did live in a village named after him) for the sake of making him even more parallel to Voldemort, that the Potters had the sword. I think it's a good theory, too, especially seeing how someone like Hepzibah Smith collected Founders' objects as well.

I don't think the school is a Horcrux, but I do think Voldemort has bigger plans for the place than simply making it into a Horcrux or using it to hide his Horcruxes. Maybe he intends to take it over and rule from it once he's overran the entire Wizarding world.

Gerald Costales - Oct 13, 2006 6:02 pm (#2635 of 2969)
Edited Oct 13, 2006 7:17 pm

Is there a connection between Horcruxes and Tarot Card?

Click to see the Magician tarot card - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (The Magician is holding a Wand.)

- The minor arcana, consisting of 56 cards (sometimes referred to as pips):

- Forty cards in four different suits of ten: traditionally batons or wands, cups, swords, coins or pentacles (Source: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Could this just be coincidence or what?
• Tarot suit - Possible Horcrux
1. Swords - Gryffindor’s Sword
2. Cups - Hufflepuff’s Cup
3. Batons or Wands - Ravenclaw’s Wand????? *
4. Coins or Pentacles - The Ring with the Peverell coat of arms????? **

* There was some discussion in the Mr. Ollivander Thread that the Wand on display in Ollivander’s store window may have belonged to Ravenclaw.

** I tried to find a Peverell coat of arms on the Web but neither Coat of Arms had a Five-pointed star on them. A Pentacle is a Five-pointed star inscribed in a Circle.

Click to see XVII the Star tarot card - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ;-) GC

PS A Star is not a Star. The Star tarot card has Seven-pointed stars. ;-) GC

Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 13, 2006 6:40 pm (#2636 of 2969)
Edited Oct 13, 2006 7:50 pm

On the topic of Horcruxes that belonged to Ravenclaw I see four possibilities:
1. The Wand in Ollivander’s store front
2. The opal necklace
3. The tiara in the Room of Requirement
4. An as yet unknown object

Of each of these the two I have to most problems I have are with the wand and tiara.

The problems I see with the wand or Tiara as a Horcrux are the following:

First, the only time the wand is seen is PS when Harry goes to buy his wand, the first time the tiara is seen is HBP.

Second, neither the wand or tiara has to the knowledge of the readers acted in manner similar to the diary.

Third, concerning the wand specifically, if Ollivander were guarding the wand for whom was he guarding and was the wand the impetus behind his disappearance.

Fourth, concerning the Tiara why hide so important an object in the Room of Requirement.

On another subject as it has been pointed out the Houses of Hogwarts corresponding to the elemental forces of earth, fire, air, and water.

If Gryffindor is connected to the element of fire perhaps the object that Voldemort originally intended to turn into a Horcrux is also connected to the element of fire in some way?

GC, if there is a Gryffindor object that has been turned into a Horcrux I believe that on the basis of Dumbledore's testimony the sword may be discounted which means that there could be a third as yet unknown relic of Godric Gryffindor's that has not been accounted for, a portrait perhaps.

TheSaint - Oct 17, 2006 5:07 am (#2637 of 2969)

I thought DD said the only relic of Gryff was the sword??? I need to go read that again.

Steve Newton - Oct 17, 2006 5:47 am (#2638 of 2969)

I think that the issue is confused. I think that you are correct in that Dumbledore did say that the sword was the only Gryffindor relic but we are also told that the hat belonged to Gryffindor. To me that would also make it a relic.

TheSaint - Oct 17, 2006 6:02 am (#2639 of 2969)

Good point. I know it was Gryffindor's but the hat is just a divining tool with the qualification specs for each house now. The sword on the other hand is quite a symbol of 'the house of the brave.' Flaming swords, cups that runneth over...hmmmmm.

T Vrana - Oct 17, 2006 6:16 am (#2640 of 2969)

I don't think we can consider the Sorting Hat the same as Gryffindor's hat. Yes, Gryffindor took a hat from his head, but in creating the Sorting Hat, all the Founder's contributed, and the hat, an ordinary hat, became the rather extraordinary Sorting Hat. I think it ceased to be Gryffindor's and became a relic of all four. It was transformed, not by Gryffindor, but by the sum contribution of all the founders. The hat Gryffindor took from his head no longer exists. It was 'reborn' as something entirely different, and could not exist without the contribution of the others. So while Gryffindor donated the rather ordinary object, what it became, that which makes it important, is not its function as a piece of clothing. What makes it an important relic is its function as a sorter, and, oddly enough given that it sorts students away from each other, a voice for unification. This function was made possible by all four, so it is a relic of all four.

IMHO...

Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 17, 2006 8:49 am (#2641 of 2969)
Edited Oct 17, 2006 9:54 am

Regardless of whether or not the Sorting Hat is a relic of Gryffindor's, it has been explicitly stated on J.K. Rowling's website that the Sorting Hat is not a Horcrux.

The Sorting Hat is a Horcrux

No, it isn't. Horcruxes do not draw attention to themselves by singing songs in front of large audiences.

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phuze - Oct 17, 2006 2:24 pm (#2642 of 2969)

Connecting the idea of Gryffindor's sword being at Godric's Hollow with the NAQ (James leaving the invisibility cloak with Dumbledore being "crucial") - maybe James "left the invisibility cloak" in Dumbledore's possession wrapped around Gryffindor's sword at Godric's Hollow? That would be crucial!

I love this forum - you can build a guess on top of a speculation supported by rumors and people will only think you're slightly crazy.

Phuze

Gerald Costales - Oct 18, 2006 7:12 am (#2643 of 2969)
Edited Oct 18, 2006 9:01 am

Click to see the Magician tarot card - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (The Magician is holding a Wand.)

- The minor arcana, consisting of 56 cards (sometimes referred to as pips):

- Forty cards in four different suits of ten: traditionally batons or wands, cups, swords, coins or pentacles (Source: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Could this just be coincidence or what?
• Tarot suit - Possible Horcrux
1. Swords - Gryffindor’s Sword
2. Cups - Hufflepuff’s Cup
3. Batons or Wands - Ravenclaw’s Wand????? *
4. Coins or Pentacles - The Ring with the Peverell coat of arms????? **

* There was some discussion in the Mr. Ollivander Thread that the Wand on display in Ollivander’s store window may have belonged to Ravenclaw.

** I tried to find a Peverell coat of arms on the Web but neither Coat of Arms had a Five-pointed star on them. A Pentacle is a Five-pointed star inscribed in a Circle.

Click to see XVII the Star tarot card - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ;-) GC

PS A Star is not a Star. The Star tarot card has Seven-pointed stars. ;-) GC

The Magician is holding a Wand.
(Source: for tarot card I - The Magician - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Is there a connection between Horcruxes and Tarot Card?

(My intro. from post #2635 with some extra Bells & Whistles and a few minor edits -Hey!!! You didn’t honestly think that I’m just going to give up on this theory are you!!!) ;-) GC

So far, the focus as been on the four remaining Horcruxes. But, what can we gleam from the first two Horcruxes - Tom Riddle’s Diary or Slytherin/Gaunt’s Ring?

And what did I really expect the "Peverell coat of arms" to look like anyway?

Well, how about a mullet or rowel on a green shield.

Now, a heraldic mullet is the spinning thing on a pair of Knight’s Spurs. So, sometimes the mullet is pierced. (As is shown on the second shield. And you may also see a Six-pointed mullet once in awhile.)
- Silver Mullet on green field.
- Mullet pierced
(Source for the mullet shield graphics: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

And what could we expect to symbolize coins on a shield?

Well, how about yellow or gold Roundels on a shield.
- Yellow in Heraldry can also indicate that the actual color (tincture) is Gold.

What would Coins mean in a heraldic coat of arms?

Depending on your source a Roundel could symbolize the following -

*Gold or yellow: bezants or Byzantine coins - worthy of trust or treasure or

**Gold Roundels - One who has been found worthy of trust and treasure.

(*Source: D K S Designs - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

(**Source: Symbolisms of Heraldry - Meanings of the symbols found in heraldry and on coats of arms. - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Three Roundels on shield. (I would prefer Yellow or Gold Roundels on the graphic, with Yellow or Gold representing coins. But, you have to use what you have sometimes.)

But, why the fuss about the "Peverell coat of arms"?

Well, "the Peverell coat of arms" is on the Ring. But, all the "Peverell coat of arms" on the Web don’t look like anything that I’ve suggested!!!

Please note!!! The Web is not a window to the "Potterverse"!!!

In the "Potterverse", London as the Leaky Cauldron, Diagon Alley, St. Mungo’s, the Ministry of Magic, etc. In the "Potterverse", Dursley, Snape, Grindelwald, etc. are Surnames not places.

So, why expect that the "Peverell coat of arms" in the "Potterverse" to look like any of the "Peverell coat of arms" found on the World Wide Web?

PS Expect a lot more. Besides what else is there to do until Book 7 is released? ;-) GC

Gerald Costales - Oct 19, 2006 7:28 am (#2644 of 2969)
Edited Oct 19, 2006 9:39 am

If you haven’t gotten to doing a search on the Web for the ‘Peverell coat of arms’, here are the other ‘Coat of Arms’ .

A. Peverell coat of arms
Click on the following for a larger image - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

B. Peverell coat of arms
Click on the following for a larger image - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

C. Peverell coat of arms
And for some reason the Gryffindor coat of arms appeared when you do a search on the Web for ‘Peverell coat of arms’.

D. Gryffindor coat of arms
Click on the following for a larger image - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

And the following are some rings that could look like Slytherin/Gaunt’s Ring -

I. Gold and Onyx Ring
(Source for ring picture - Amazon.com)

II. Onyx Ring with Crest
(Source for ring picture - Herff Jones)

III. Ring with Large Square Stone
(Source for ring picture - QVC.com)

I believe the third Ring (III.) is large enough to have the ‘Peverell coat of arms’ etched on it. ;-) GC

PS More later. ;-) GC

Madame Pomfrey - Oct 20, 2006 7:20 am (#2645 of 2969)

I keep seeing it mentioned that Voldemort would want to gain access to his Horcruxes in case he needs to use it. I am confused by this. Voldemort does not need to have a Horcrux present in order for it to be activated which is why he didn't die when he tried to kill Harry. He has seven Horcruxes because he thought seven to be a magical number, however, if he would have had only one Horcrux he would still have immortality until that Horcrux was destroyed. It is not like a cat with 9 lives. When he has used a Horcrux the Horcrux is still good to be used over and over, right?

T Vrana - Oct 20, 2006 7:31 am (#2646 of 2969)

M Pomfrey. I don't think he needs access to use it, but may want to move one if he suspects its whereabouts are known.

Gerald Costales - Oct 20, 2006 9:12 am (#2647 of 2969)
Edited Oct 20, 2006 10:20 am

"He has seven Horcruxes because he thought seven to be a magical number, however, if he would have had only one Horcrux he would still have immortality until that Horcrux was destroyed." Madame Pomfrey

Madame Pomfrey - Voldemort created Six Horcruxes, the Seventh part of Voldemort's Soul remains in Voldemort. Two Horcruxes have been destroyed - the Diary and the Ring. Harry needs to locate the Four remaining Horcruxes and destroy them. Harry will finally destroy Voldemort when Harry destroys Voldemort's body with the last and Seventh Soul Bit in it.

"When he has used a Horcrux the Horcrux is still good to be used over and over, right?"

I'm not too sure about that. When the Diary was destroyed, the Diary was useless. And the Diary seemed to have vanished. That is there is no Canon that Dobby, Harry, or Dumbledore kept the Diary after end of Book 2. Also, look at page 278 of HBP ...

... Harry got to his feet. As he walked across the room his eyes fell upon the little table on which Marvolo Gaunt's ring had rested last time, but the ring was no longer there.
... "Yes, Harry?" said Dumbledore, for Harry had come to a halt.
... "The ring's gone," said Harry, looking around. "But I thought you might have the mouth organ or something."
... Dumbledore beamed at him, over the top of his half-moon spectacles.
... "Very astute, Harry, but the mouth organ was only ever a mouth organ."
... And on that enigmatic note he waved to Harry, who understood himself to be dismissed. (page 278, HBP, American edition)

It appears that once a Horcrux is destroyed, that Horcrux is useless and possibly just vanishes over time. ;-) GC

T Vrana - Oct 20, 2006 9:20 am (#2648 of 2969)
Edited Oct 20, 2006 10:30 am

"When he has used a Horcrux the Horcrux is still good to be used over and over, right?"

I don't think he actually uses a Horcrux. The fact that a bit of his soul is trapped, bound to earth, keeps the rotten, puny soul residing in his body from moving on if his body is destroyed.

Once all the Horcruxes are destroyed, he can be killed and his soul will be free to take what he has coming beyond the veil.

At least I think that's how they work...

legolas returns - Oct 20, 2006 10:15 am (#2649 of 2969)

Dumbledore could just have put the ring away in a cupboard or no longer had it on view.

S.E. Jones - Oct 20, 2006 11:59 am (#2650 of 2969)

You are quite right, Madame Pomfrey, if my understanding of the books is right, that the sheer existence of the Horcrux is all Voldemort needs. He doesn't have to "use" it, he just needs it to exist somewhere. The question about how Voldemort would get to his Horcruxes is something we get from Dumbledore, I believe. "Voldemort needed to create a means to cross the lake without attracting the wrath of those creatures he had placed within it in case he ever wanted to visit or remove his Horcrux." (HBP26, p563, US).

Gerald, I think Madame Pomfrey was referring to Voldemort using his Horcruxes to remain bound to earth without dying, not the Horcruxes being destroyed as you are referring to. I think the objects the soul bits were contained in are left behind as they started as just objects. We do not know what happened to the diary or ring, but we do know the ring was around for a while before it disappeared so the likely explanation is that Dumbledore just put it away somewhere.

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Potteraholic Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:45 pm

Gerald Costales - Oct 20, 2006 12:13 pm (#2651 of 2969)
Edited Oct 20, 2006 1:18 pm

... "The ring's gone," said Harry, looking around. "But I thought you might have the mouth organ or something."
... Dumbledore beamed at him, over the top of his half-moon spectacles.
... "Very astute, Harry, but the mouth organ was only ever a mouth organ."
... And on that enigmatic note he waved to Harry ... (page 278, HBP, American edition)

My impression is that the Ring became a Horcrux. Then after being made a Horcrux/Ring, it was rendered useless. Then the Ring returned to being only a Ring.

enigmatic - adj. Of or resembling an enigma; puzzling.

JKR could easily have ended the chapter sooner. But, why end the chapter the way she did. And especially why end it like this ...

... And on that enigmatic note he waved to Harry ...

I don’t feel Dumbledore just put the Ring away. I believe the Ring is gone. Puff!!!!! ;-) GC

PS Just like the Diary!!!!! ;-) GC

Soul Search - Oct 20, 2006 12:36 pm (#2652 of 2969)

Why would Horcrux objects disappear?

I have in mind a scene where Harry has Voldemort at his mercy, but before doing him in he throws the diary to him, then the ring, then ...

It lets Voldemort know that he is going to be gone for good.

S.E. Jones - Oct 20, 2006 12:42 pm (#2653 of 2969)
Edited Oct 20, 2006 1:44 pm

Gerald Costales --enigmatic - adj. Of or resembling an enigma; puzzling.

JKR could easily have ended the chapter sooner. But, why end the chapter the way she did. And especially why end it like this ... --

She ended the chapter that way because, at the time, we didn't know what a Horcrux was. We didn't know at the time the ring was anything but a ring (it was, in fact, more as it was once a Horcrux). Dumbledore's saying the mouth organ isn't important because it's only a mouth organ (not a Horcrux) and this is enigmatic because it confuses Harry as he doesn't know what's important about the ring... yet..... . It's a clue that's screaming "there's something more to the ring, kid, there's something more to the ring" and Harry just hadn't figured it out yet.

T Vrana - Oct 20, 2006 12:52 pm (#2654 of 2969)

The diary didn't disappear when it was destroyed as a Horcrux. Harry used it to chuck a sock at Malfoy, and ultimately free Dobby.

Madame Pomfrey - Oct 20, 2006 4:09 pm (#2655 of 2969)

SE Jones, You have explained exactly what I meant, only you worded it better.

Choices - Oct 20, 2006 5:17 pm (#2656 of 2969)
Edited Oct 20, 2006 6:17 pm

Yes, excellent explanation S.E. Jones. Well said!

Gerald Costales - Oct 20, 2006 6:17 pm (#2657 of 2969)
Edited Oct 20, 2006 7:36 pm

"The diary didn't disappear when it was destroyed as a Horcrux. Harry used it to chuck a sock at Malfoy, and ultimately free Dobby." T Vrana

Did Dobby keep the Diary? Did Dobby travel with the destroyed Diary until Dumbledore hired him at Hogwarts? There wasn't a reason why Dobby would lug a useless Diary around.

When Harry packed his trunk before he returned to Hogwarts every Sept. 1st or when Harry packed his trunk after Harry blew up Aunt Marge, was it ever mentioned that a destroyed Diary was chunked into the trunk? There wasn't a reason why Harry would lug a useless Diary around.

The only person, besides Voldemort, who had an inkling that the Diary was a Horcrux was Dumbledore. And was there any reason why Dumbledore would keep a useless Diary in his office? Or is the Diary ever mentioned to be in Dumbledore’s office?

The Diary may be in a garbage dump or where ever Wizards throw their trash. Or Poof it’s gone!!!!! ;-) GC

T Vrana - Oct 20, 2006 6:32 pm (#2658 of 2969)

I think Lucius Malfoy was holding it last time we saw it.

Gerald Costales - Oct 20, 2006 6:44 pm (#2659 of 2969)
Edited Oct 20, 2006 7:50 pm

And Lucius is in Azkaban. Or does Draco have it? Or does Narcissa have it? Why would anyone really need to keep an ex-Horcrux? The Diary is destroyed and has no Power or Purpose.

The four remaining Horcruxes are important. But, the Diary or Ring would only be useful if they gave clues to the last Four Horcruxes. ;-) GC

PS Which is what I think the Diary or Ring will do. The Diary or more likely the Ring will help Harry find another Horcrux. Why have a coat of arms etched on the Ring? Who are the Peverells? ;-) GC

shadzar - Oct 20, 2006 7:23 pm (#2660 of 2969)

Maybe Peverell refers to the supposed illegitimate son of William the Conqueror, William Peverell. Peverell maybe even was derived from Flanders? There are some interesting facts about them that seem similar to LV and his views of the Gaunt family.

That coat of arms would answer many questions if we knew more about it I am sure.

I think the diary has played out its part and usefulness. The ruins of the Gaunt house may hold more than the ring itself for finding more about LV motives and maybe what he would choose as the other Horcruxes. Where was the ring? What was protecting it? Take these things into account for trying to find the remaining ones and look at the cave protections as well. Maybe the protections are related to the location of the Horcruxes, or maybe the item used to make the Horcruxes?

S.E. Jones - Oct 20, 2006 9:56 pm (#2661 of 2969)
Edited Oct 20, 2006 11:09 pm

I think the Peverell coat of arms will be important only to tracking family histories. Once Harry can follow the Gaunt line back to the Peverells and then back further to the Slytherins, he should be able to trace the other founders' blood lines. If he's going to find something of Ravenclaw's or Gryffindor's he'll need to find the descendants and ask if they know of any heirlooms that when missing. I think this will also involve something like the wizarding genealogy book we saw at Grimmauld Place.

shadzar --The ruins of the Gaunt house may hold more than the ring itself for finding more about LV motives and maybe what he would choose as the other Horcruxes. Where was the ring?--

This comment made me think of a post the other day, can't remember who by (I was going to ask them to post here, but I forgot to and then couldn't remember where I'd seen it), anyway, the person was talking about how the Gaunt house was described in very cave-like terms. We were discussing elemental magic and how that might work into the Horcrux hunt and I was thinking of their points as they refer to the three Slytherinesque Horcruxes: the ring in the Gaunt house and it's location on the hill in "cave-like" terms, the locket in an actual cave, the diary opening a cave under the school which is accessed via plumbing. All three hidden in water related places. This makes me think, even more, that we'll find Hufflepuff's cup near the place where the orphans went when visiting the country. Do we have any more references to it other than Mrs. Cole mentioning that they either went to the country or the seashore?

Gerald Costales - Oct 21, 2006 7:50 am (#2662 of 2969)
Edited Oct 21, 2006 8:53 am

S.E. Jones - I believe this is the post that you may be thinking of -

valuereflection - Oct 17, 2006 9:15 pm (#124 of the Cave Thread) (http://wc6.worldcrossing.com/webx?7@702.4aV6aTrgREK@.1ddf8a06/125)

An excerpt -

‘ ... The Gaunt house is described as being down a "rocky, sloping downhill" path. It is "half-hidden" with trees "blocking all light", it's walls were "mossy" and "steam or smoke" came from the windows. This to me sounds like JKR is making it as subterranean/cave-like as possible but still being above ground. (Post #49 the Cave Thread)

What a great observation, me and my shadow 813!

What first impressed me about The Cave (in HPB chapter 26) was the realistic description of the setting. JKR has used a cave setting in the series before, but given much less description. For example, Sirius' cave in the mountain above Hogsmeade in GF -- her description was so minimal that HRH could have met with Sirius in some deserted room practically anywhere. I have been spelunking or touring on a few occasions, within caves of various types, and JKR's description of Sirius' cave didn't sound to me like her characters were inside a real cave. Or that cave was very boring.’

PS I'm thinking that the Ring was protected by Fire Magic. Which would explain the following -

‘... Dumbledore serenely, shaking back his sleeve to reveal the tips of those burned and blackened fingers; the sight of them made the back of Harry’s neck prickle unpleasantly... ’ (page 67, HBP, American edition)

PS More later!!!!! ;-) GC

Gerald Costales - Oct 21, 2006 8:09 am (#2663 of 2969)
Edited Oct 21, 2006 9:37 am

(This should be the third and final post that I was working on the ‘Peverell coat of arms’. My post #2643 was about a possible connection between Tarot Cards and the Horcruxes. The second part of that post also gave what I expected the ‘Peverell coat of arms’ to look like. My post #2644 is about the ‘Peverell coat of arms’ that one finds on the World Wide Web. The second part of that post explores the possible look of the ‘Slytherin/Gaunt Ring ‘. This third post is about what I believe is the ‘Best’ candidate for the ‘Peverell coat of arms’; related topics; and some more interesting coincidences.) ;-) GC

But, why all the fuss about the ‘Ring etched with the ‘Peverell coat of arms’?

Well , you might want to read the following -

A. Peverell coat of arms
The ‘Peverell coat of arms’ is similar to the following coat of arms. The exceptions being the coronet and the shield being divided ‘party per cross’.

B. Shield divided ‘party per cross’
(Source for ‘party per cross’ shield: An Introduction to Heraldry in the Middle Ages by Otis Norman Crandell - museum.worldwidesam.net/.../heraldry/party.htm)

C. March coat of arms
(Source for March coat of arms - The Heraldry Society of Scotland - Some Distinctive Characteristics of Scots Arms By Alex Maxwell Findlater: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

And what’s up with the coronet? Well, in heraldic art coronets, crowns, etc. indicate ranks of nobility. (This coronet appears to indicate that ‘Peverell’ is a Duke or Duchess.)

Duke/Duchess:

Coronet: A circlet adorned with strawberry leaves

Form of Address: Your Grace.

The rank of Duke or Duchess is given to those who have been King or Queen twice or more, and have served their full reign. They are then entitled to wear a coronet that is adorned with strawberry leaves.

1. Ducal coronet adorned with strawberry leaves.
(Source for March coat of arms - The Heraldry Society of Scotland - Some Distinctive Characteristics of Scots Arms By Alex Maxwell Findlater: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Additional definition: Duke - The highest rank in the peerage of Great Britain.

(Source: Pimbley's Dictionary of Heraldry: D, Page Two - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

(Source for definitions and coronet graphic - Coronets and Protocol in An Tir - An Tir Circlet Conventions by Lord Federic Badger: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

But, what is interesting is that the above ‘Peverell coat of arms’ (A.) is almost a mirror image the ‘Gryffindor coat of arms.’!!!!!

D. Gryffindor coat of arms
Click on the following for a larger image - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The ‘dexter chief’ (northwest corner) and ‘sinister base’ (southeast corner) are lozengy, argent (white or silver) and gules (red).

Lozengy, (fr. losangÈ): entirely covered with lozenges of alternate tinctures colors.

E. Shield - lozengy
Lozengy, (fr. losangÈ): entirely covered with lozenges of alternate tinctures (colors, metals, or furs).

The ‘sinister chief’ (northeast corner) and ‘sinister base’ (southwest corner) are - gules (red) with a seme’ of lozenges, azure (blue).

SemÈ, (fr.), sometimes written semy: means that the field is sown or strewed over with several of the charges named, drawn small and without any reference to the number.

This is the Blazon (the heraldic description of a coat of arms) from the Lexicon -

Blazon: gules, a lion rampant or (that is, a golden lion on a red field, hence the Gryffindor colours of scarlet and gold)

The Lexicon’s Blazon fails to mention the lozengy areas of the shield, the "bordure" or border surrounding the shield, or that the Lion is facing to the sinister (east) side of the shield (which is an exception and should be mentioned).

In heraldry animals and objects face dexter or right as a rule. So, the meaning of sinister is left. The terms dexter or sinister are the shield bear’s right and left and not the viewer’s right and left.

"bordure": n. a thick stripe covering all edges of the shield.

(Source for the bordure definition is from - Heraldic Glossary - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Click on the following for information on tinctures and heraldry in general - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] .

Note: The blue and white areas of the ‘Peverell coat of arms’ are covered in ‘vair’ a type of fur.

F. Slytherin coat of arms
Special note: The Slytherin coat of arms has a "mural crown".

2. Mural crown

Mural crown: n. Formed of battlements masoned. Fancifully said to have been given by the Romans to the soldier who first ascended the walls of a besieged fortress.

(Source for mural crowngraphic and definition: Lord Kyl’s Illustrated Glossary and Lexicon of Heraldry - heraldry.lordkyl.net/glossary/glossary_m.html)

PS That's all for now!!!!! ;-) GC

S.E. Jones - Oct 21, 2006 12:04 pm (#2664 of 2969)
Edited Oct 21, 2006 1:05 pm

Okay, Gerald, I still don't see where you're going with all this. Are you trying to say the Gaunts are related both to Slytherin and to Gryffindor (via the Peverells)? If so, that would mean that Voldemort is related to both Slytherin and Gryffindor as well. We have these two comments, "Centuries it's been in our family, that's how far back we go, and pure-blood all the way!" in reference to the ring and "Salazar Slytherin's! We're his last living descendents..." in reference to the locket. Both were family heirlooms, so they either both came from one line (i.e. the Peverells are descendents of Slytherin's) or they came from two different lines (Slytherin and Gryffindor). Personally, I don't believe that JKR will make Voldemort a descendent of Gryffindor's.

shadzar - Oct 21, 2006 6:36 pm (#2665 of 2969)
Edited Oct 21, 2006 7:36 pm

2689 posts and I can't get them all on one page to search so, has it come up yet there in each book so far there could have been a Horcrux? 6 Horcruxes, 6 books. Then we should easily already know what the Horcruxes are if we look at the items in them. If there is but one Horcrux per book then many things go wrong but is it possible each book has shown one new specific Horcrux?

PS/SS ó Harry's scar
CoS ó diary
PoA ó ?
GoF ó Nagini?
OotP ó locket
HBP ó ring

I say Harry scar, because the relationship to it and LV and the power LV gave him. whether intended or not it could be a small part of LV soul inside Harry that give them the connection to each other.

So what items could there be in PoA and GoF that would fit to being Horcruxes, or is this theory off because of the Hufflepuff cup also appearing in HBP?

S.E. Jones - Oct 21, 2006 6:59 pm (#2666 of 2969)
Edited Oct 21, 2006 8:04 pm

I don't think we should count Harry's scar, at least not and count Nagini. Harry's scar didn't happen until Voldemort was ready to make his sixth and last Horcrux, according to DD (who I think is right), and Nagini happened after that attempt failed. If he is correct, then either the scar or Nagini is a Horcrux and not both. Either he made a Horcrux the night he tried to AK Harry, or he made a Horcrux while in Albania, otherwise we have one too many Horcruxes (8, not 7 which is the magical number Voldemort was going for).

I think we can believe DD's guess in regards the Horcruxes, so that leaves us with the diary, ring, locket, cup, something of Ravenclaw's or Gryffindor's (DD ruled out something of Gryffindor's when he mentioned the sword, which leaves something of Ravenclaws), and Nagini, the bit of soul in Voldemort's body making the seventh piece of soul.

However, it would be interesting to know whether Voldemort sees having made seven Horcruxes or having seven Horcruxes at any given time as being magically stronger. What I mean is, he didn't know about the diary being destroyed (as far as I can remember) until after he returned to his body and made Nagini into a Horcrux (which is why my thoughts are as they are above), but I do wonder if Voldemort would've made another to replace it or not.

shadzar --2689 posts and I can't get them all on one page to search--

You can use the built in search function. All you have to do is click the "Search" link in the teal toolbar, put in your search criteria, and click the "Search this discussion" button (this only appears if you click the "Search" link while inside a thread).

shadzar - Oct 21, 2006 7:17 pm (#2667 of 2969)
Edited Oct 21, 2006 8:17 pm

searching...well its hard to search for things like "one per book" etc cause the boolean search can't know what I mean to search for and I need to look for the idea in the "physical" posts themselves as I skim. Searching for Horcrux on this thread won't do much good seeing the word is probably in every post. =)

I see what you mean about Nagini which is why I put a question mark beside it/her. I just don't think she is one, no matter if DD thinks so or not. Would LV want such a weak Horcrux? BEEP BEEP! SPLAT! One Horcrux gone due to road kill...I doubt it even as significant as a serpent would be to him.

S.E. Jones - Oct 21, 2006 7:31 pm (#2668 of 2969)
Edited Oct 21, 2006 8:33 pm

Isn't that why he said Voldemort was keeping the snake so close to him, because it could die? The snake could really mean something to him as it appears they had to milk Nagini's venom for some purpose relating to keeping the, er, whatever it was Voldemort was in prior to getting a new body. He also was so closely linked to the snake that he could see through its eyes when it tried to get into the DoM (I'm betting there were DEs waiting for it on the elevator, maybe Lucius?) and when it attack Arthur. I'm thinking that's why Harry could see what it saw, because Voldemort could due to the fact that a piece of him is now residing in it.

You could try search criteria like "CS" or "CoS" or "Chamber of Secrets" and then look for each book that way in this thread. If someone found something (i.e. Tom's service to the school award) they'd generally mention what book they found it in.

shadzar - Oct 21, 2006 7:47 pm (#2669 of 2969)
Edited Oct 21, 2006 8:48 pm

Therein lies the other problem. If Nagini is a Horcrux, then it follows suit that the scar must be also. While maybe having a weaker will than humans, the snake may be more easily controlled than a human like the younger more impressionable Ginny by the diary. The connection between LV and the scar are similar to what you say about his control of Nagini's senses.

So if both can't be Horcruxes then don't they count each other out as possibilities?

LV may not even know the scar is a Horcrux if he planned in advance all the things required to make a ceremonial Horcrux from his "defeat" of the prophecy.

But we don't know what steps if any are required in preparing something to become a Horcrux either.....

Thom Matheson - Oct 21, 2006 10:09 pm (#2670 of 2969)
Edited Oct 21, 2006 11:14 pm

Albania must be out as he had no way to hold his wand after AK’ing Harry. If he got Nagini is must have happened before the Potter house night.

Sarah, I can't see him making replacements because the original soul would be divided into an 8th or 9th piece. If he were to keep replacing them in order to always have 7, at some point his soul would be divided into so many parts there wouldn't be anything left.

S.E. Jones - Oct 22, 2006 12:12 am (#2671 of 2969)

Thom --Albania must be out as he had no way to hold his wand after AK’ing Harry. If he got Nagini is must have happened before the Potter house night.--

I don't know why you think he'd have to have gotten Nagini prior to the events of Godric's Hollow, Thom. From what I remember he got her when he was possessing various creatures as Vapormort, after Quirrell died and probably just before Peter showed up. According to Dumbledore, he made her into a Horcrux after killing Frank Bryce.

Now, that's an interesting quandary, if Voldemort saw 7 pieces of soul as being the most powerful, magically speaking, and he accidentally transferred some to Harry the night the AK backfired, that would mean there are actually 8 pieces, which messes his plan up anyway. However, I don't think this will turn out to be the case as that would mean that Harry has to die for Voldemort to die, which I don't think will happen.

I really liked the idea a forum member set forth (sorry, don't remember who it was) that the connection between Voldemort and Harry was caused by Lily's "shield" of love. The connection not only reflected back the curse, but, by adding love into the mix, transferred from Voldemort to Harry what Harry would need to protect himself from his enemy, a continuation of what Lily started when she refused to move and gave her life for his.

shadzar - Oct 22, 2006 2:04 am (#2672 of 2969)
Edited Oct 22, 2006 3:05 am

SE Jones

Now, that's an interesting quandary, if Voldemort saw 7 pieces of soul as being the most powerful, magically speaking, and he accidentally transferred some to Harry the night the AK backfired, that would mean there are actually 8 pieces, which messes his plan up anyway. However, I don't think this will turn out to be the case as that would mean that Harry has to die for Voldemort to die, which I don't think will happen.

Isn't that what the prophecy implies?

...And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...

It can be read that both die, or one die and one live. It doesn't say that either will live, only that for either to live the other must die.

If they both die simultaneously then it fulfills the prophecy as the final Horcrux (the scar) would be destroyed as Harry died, and LV would completely die since there are no more Horcruxes remaining to keep his bodiless soul bound to the physical plane. That way the Dark Lord has been vanquished.

T Vrana - Oct 22, 2006 4:54 am (#2673 of 2969)
Edited Oct 22, 2006 6:05 am

shadzar- I agree that if Harry is a Horcrux, LV did not know he was successful that night in making one. And I would also question whether he is a proper Horcrux as LV planned Harry's death to make the Horcrux. Harry did not die, of course, but the intent to kill baby Harry and the Horcrux preparation (whatever that may be) may have left a bit of LV's soul looking for place to go, and Harry's scar may be that place. It would explain the connection that seems very like the Nagini connection.

I question whether LV knows now that Harry is a Horcrux. Is this why Snape and the DEs were told to leave him alone?

Trying to figure out how Harry can be Horcrux like, and not need to die...

EDIT-

One of the reasons I like the idea of Harry walking around with his own soul and a bit of LV's soul, is the idea that Harry is a walking battle of good and evil. That he was orphaned as LV was, grew up in the Muggle world under less than ideal conditions, has had it pretty tough, but still chooses to love. LV's mother would not live to protect him, Harry's mother died to protect him, and this same love protects Harry from succumbing to the evil he carries. Would LV have turned out differently if his mother had loved him enough to live for him? I think yes, and that Harry can have some LV in him, and still choose to love supports the idea that a mother's love is more powerful that the lure of power like LV's (DD said this, but said love, not mother's love).

LV wanted power. Harry arrives in the WW an instant celebrity and even Malfoy wants to be his friend. If the LV side of Harry were stronger, he could have been in Slytherin, and quite powerful as everyone already thought he was something special. But mo's love is stronger than this lure of power.

Starting to ramble...

Madame Pomfrey - Oct 22, 2006 6:59 am (#2674 of 2969)
Edited Oct 22, 2006 8:22 am

The following was on a different thread and I wanted to answer it here.

Then how do you destroy a Horcrux? It must be something destructive. Thom Matheson

I don't think it is going to be too hard to destroy the Horcrux itself, but the getting around the dark magical barriers surrounding the Horcrux. I'm thinking of the diary here. It was meant to serve two purposes therefore didn't have the nasty curses placed upon it. Harry killed it with the Basilisks fang without any harm done to himself. If the locket at Grimmauld is the true Horcrux, the kids were able to handle it without a problem. So, I tend to think it is the magical barriers that is going to be hard to get past not the destroying of the Horcrux itself. A simple AK will probably do. My opinion of course.

As for how Harry could survive if his scar is a Horcrux, someone at the beginning of this thread had once said that if Harry destroyed all the vessel Horcruxes and it came to a showdown then perhaps Voldemort would strike Harry with the AK and release the Horcrux within the scar. There would be a rebound, this time killing Voldemort.

Here is the actual post.

RoseMorninStar[/b] - Oct 17, 2005 11:48 pm (#1153 of 2674) Madame Pomfrey, I have a theory on how it could work if Harry's scar is a Horcrux, but it is only a theory and I realize it is not perfect.

First of all, I do not think Harry himself is a Horcrux because then he would be sort of possessed, like the diary. And Harry is not possessed. I think Ginny made that perfectly clear when she questioned him about blank stretches of time that he doesn't remember.

So, IF Harry's scar is a Horcrux, I could see Harry meeting up with Voldemort for the final 'showdown' but Harry does not think he is ready because he thinks he has one more Horcrux yet to find and destroy. Harry battles and gets all 'noble' (as Ginny would say) and decides to do the best he can to 'vanquish' Voldemort, but Voldemort uses the AK curse on Harry. But because of some reason...whether it is something special Dumbledore set into motion, or some special protection or reaction between their wands or SOMETHING, the curse hits Harry in his scar, destroying the last Horcrux, and then the curse rebounds and hits Voldemort. Much the same way it did when Harry was a baby. That way, Harry will live, and not have to directly kill Voldemort, which I don't think JKR will have Harry do. I think Harry will somehow 'vanquish' Voldemort without directly 'murdering' him. I also, for some reason, think that when Dumbledore 'defeated' the Dark Lord Grindelwald, Dumbledore did not kill him directly, but that he died none-the-less, and was 'vanquished'.

Gerald Costales - Oct 22, 2006 10:01 am (#2675 of 2969)

‘... .. And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives... .’

‘It can be read that both die, or one die and one lives. It doesn't say that either will live, only that for either to live the other must die.’ shadzar

‘... And either (LV and Harry)must die at the hand of the other (a three party - my guess is Wormtail) for neither (LV or Harry) can live while the other (LV or Harry) survives ... ’

Prophecies are ambiguous. So, here’s another take on that particular line from the ‘Prophecy’ .

The rebounding AK transferred part of Voldemort’s abilities (and not necessarily a bit of Voldemort’s soul) through the ‘Scar’. The ‘Scar’ is a gateway into Voldemort’s mind and emotions. The ‘Scar’ is not a Horcrux.

Because the ‘Scar’ is a gateway into Voldemort’s mind and emotions, it was Voldemort who eventually closed the gateway between them. And prior to Voldemort closing the gateway; this was the reason Dumbledore wanted Harry to learn to ‘close his mind’ or that is ‘close his mind to Voldemort’ .

‘I don't think it is going to be too hard to destroy the Horcrux itself, but the getting around the dark magical barriers surrounding the Horcrux.’ Madame Pomfrey

It took some planning, time, and effort to construct the ‘dark magical barriers surrounding’ the Fake Locket Horcrux in the ‘Cave’. So, maybe Voldemort and the Death Eaters hadn’t finished making any ‘dark magical barriers’ around the remaining Horcruxes. ;-) GC

T Vrana - Oct 22, 2006 10:33 am (#2676 of 2969)
Edited Oct 22, 2006 11:34 am

Gerald- You may be right, but we do not know that the scar is not a Horcrux or Horcrux like. We do not know why or how such a gateway exists, or how LV's abilities were transferred. We only know it occurred during LV's attempt to kill baby Harry.

It is rather like saying that a car moves because we put pressure on the gas pedal. In reality, the car moves because of all the other things that happen when we press the gas pedal. So, while the AK allowed for this transfer of power, and link to LV, we do not know the "mechanics' of why. The torn bit of soul and the plans to make a Horcrux are a possible explanation.

Gerald Costales - Oct 22, 2006 11:52 am (#2677 of 2969)

‘ ... but we do not know that the scar is not a Horcrux or Horcrux-like... ’

‘ ... while the AK allowed for this transfer of power, and link to LV, we do not know the "mechanics' of why. The torn bit of soul and the plans to make a Horcrux are a possible explanation.’ T Vrana

T- Vrana - I’m leaning to idea that the ‘Scar’ is Horcrux-like. (And that should hopefully give Harry a chance to survive past Book 7.)

I’ve felt that the Horcrux making process should be as complex as the ‘Rite’ that was used to give Voldemort a new Human-like body in the Graveyard. That ‘Rite’ must certainly be related or is ‘Ancient Magic’. And the rebounding ‘AK’ was also related to ‘Ancient Magic’; the ‘Ancient Magic’ of Lily’s ‘sacrifice’ to save Harry that night.

Lily’s ‘sacrifice’ certainly was part of the reason Harry has become the true ‘Heroic’ figure he is; which is a near mirror or opposite of Tom’s Riddle ‘Villainous’ figure and was related to Merope’s inability to live for her son’s well-being.

‘One of the reasons I like the idea of Harry walking around with his own soul and a bit of LV's soul, is the idea that Harry is a walking battle of good and evil. That he was orphaned as LV was, grew up in the Muggle World under less than ideal conditions, has had it pretty tough, but still chooses to love. LV's mother would not live to protect him, Harry's mother died to protect him, and this same love protects Harry from succumbing to the evil he carries. Would LV have turned out differently if his mother had loved him enough to live for him? I think yes, and that Harry can have some LV in him, and still choose to love supports the idea that a Mother's love is more powerful that the lure of power like LV's (DD said this, but said Love, not Mother's love).’ T Vrana (from you post #2673)

We share similar ideas but just have different perspectives on them. ;-) GC

Gerald Costales - Oct 22, 2006 12:12 pm (#2678 of 2969)
Edited Oct 22, 2006 1:22 pm

(re: post #2664)

‘Okay, Gerald, I still don't see where you're going with all this. Are you trying to say the Gaunts are related both to Slytherin and to Gryffindor(via the Peverells)? If so, that would mean that Voldemort is related to both Slytherin and Gryffindor as well. We have these two comments, "Centuries it's been in our family, that's how far back we go, and pure-blood all the way!" in reference to the ring and "Salazar Slytherin's! We're his last living descendents..." in reference to the locket. Both were family heirlooms, so they either both came from one line (i.e. the Peverells are descendents of Slytherin's) or they came from two different lines (Slytherin and Gryffindor). Personally, I don't believe that JKR will make Voldemort a descendent of Gryffindor's. S.E. Jones

With such a small gene pool of Pure Bloods left; the possibility that all or most of the current Pure Bloods are related some how; I believe is HIGH.

But, I'm implying something a lot more radical -

‘I hope you are not too sleepy to pay attention to this, Harry - the young Tom Riddle liked to collect trophies. You saw the box of stolen articles he hidden in his room. These were taken from victims of his bullying behavior, souvenirs, if you will, of particularly unpleasant bits of magic. Bear in mind this magpie-like tendency, for this, particularly will be important later... ’ (page 277, HBP, American edition)

‘Bear in mind this magpie-like tendency, for this, particularly will be important later... ’

Could there be more than one Wizard with ‘magpie-like tendencies’?

’Are you selling this stuff?’ asked Harry, watching Mundungus grab an assortment of grubby-looking objects from the ground.
’Oh, well, gotta scrape a living,’ said Mundungus, ‘Gimme that!’
Ron had stooped down and picked up something silver.
‘Hang on,’ Ron said slowly. ‘This looks familiar --’
‘Thank you!’ said Mundungus, snatching the goblet out of Ron’s hand and stuffing it back into the case. ‘Well, I’ll see you all --- OUCH!’
Harry had pinned Mundungus against the wall of the pub by the throat. Holding him fast with one hand, be pulled out his wand.
‘Harry!’ squealed Hermione.
‘You took that from Sirius’s house,’ said Harry, who was almost nose to nose with Mundungus and was breathing in an unpleasant smell of old tobacco and spirits. ‘That had the Black family crest on it.’
‘I -- no -- what -- ?’ spluttered Mundungus, who was slowly turning purple.
‘What did you do, go back the night he died and strip the place?’ snarled Harry. (pages 245 and 246, HBP, American edition)

The Peverell Ring may have been STOLEN!!!!!

Any Wizard or Witch using a silver cup with the ‘Black family crest’ could simply claim to be related to the Black family. So, any one with a Ring with the ‘Peverell coat of arms’ might assume that they are related to the Peverells. ;-) GC

T Vrana - Oct 22, 2006 12:21 pm (#2679 of 2969)
Edited Oct 22, 2006 1:32 pm

Gerald-

Slughorn tells Riddle that murder tears the soul, and a wizard intent on creating a Horcrux takes advantage of the tear and encases the torn bit. When Tom asks how, Slughorn says a spell. It does not sound overly complex or like a rite similar to rebirthing.

When LV murdered Lily he tore his soul, but did not encase it, as he was planning to use Harry's murder for his final Horcrux. So that bit of soul would have remained within LV's body, same for James murder and that bit created. But, if the spell must be cast before the murder, is it possible that the rebounding AK, mixed with the attempt to create a Horcrux, vaporized LV's body, whatever object he planned to use, and left not only his soul without a host, but also the bits he had just created when he killed James and Lily? The bit he tore in killing Lily was attracted to Harry as it was Harry she died for.

EDIT- Also, DD said only a true Gryffindor could have pulled the sword from the hat. Perhaps he meant a TRUE Gryffindor, an heir. If LV was trying to create a Horcrux with something of Gryffindor's, and it was destroyed by the rebounding AK, perhaps as a Gryffindor, the bit of soul torn by Lily's murder bound itself to another relic of Gryffindor, Harry.

legolas returns - Oct 22, 2006 12:51 pm (#2680 of 2969)

I thought that you needed some kind of spell to encase you part of soul. I think Voldemort would know if he had done it.

S.E. Jones - Oct 22, 2006 1:26 pm (#2681 of 2969)
Edited Oct 22, 2006 2:28 pm

...for neither can live while the other survives...

I took this to mean what Dumbledore puts forth as the meaning: "Got to?" said Dumbledore. "Of course you've got to! But not because of the prophecy! Because you, yourself, will never rest until you've tried!" (underline mine). Then you have Harry putting it into his own words, It was, he thought, the difference between being dragged into the arena to face a battle to the death and walking into the arena with your head held high. Neither will rest while the other continues to live, thus one will kill the other. That's the way I read it.

Also, if you look at the prophecy as a sign that Harry is a Horcrux (or that his scar is), if Harry's connection to Voldemort is Horcrux-like, then Voldemort can live as long as Harry survives. According to the actual wording neither Voldemort or Harry can live while the other, either Voldemort or Harry, survives, but if the connection is Horcrux-like, this wouldn't be true as Voldemort should still be able to live as long as his Horcrux (Harry) is still around. The line reads "for neither can live" not "for either can live", thus the connection cannot be Horcrux-like (according to the prophecy).

T Vrana - Oct 22, 2006 1:57 pm (#2682 of 2969)

legolas- He would have known if he had cast the spell, but killing Harry didn't work. So, he would have concluded that he did not make a Horcrux. However, he had not counted on his body being destroyed, which left his soul, and the two bits he had just created, though not encased, with no place to go. The bits created by James and Lily's murders would not necessarily go with LV's "main' soul, as they had been torn from it.

As he had not used the spell before their murders, he would not have guessed that Harry might end up with a bit of his soul, I would think the bit from Lily's murder.

SE- But they have been living while the other survives. So it is in keeping with your first comment, it is what they choose to do, not that they literally can't live.

I don't use the prophecy to support the idea that Harry's walking around with a bit of Voldy on his head, but rather the abilities and connections he has with LV.

S.E. Jones - Oct 22, 2006 2:04 pm (#2683 of 2969)

T Vrana --When LV murdered Lily he tore his soul, but did not encase it, as he was planning to use Harry's murder for his final Horcrux. So that bit of soul would have remained within LV's body, same for James murder and that bit created.--

As T Vrana pointed out, Voldemort has definitely killed more than six times in his life. He created the six Horcruxes because seven is the most magically powerful number. Hm, so I'm thinking that since Voldemort's plan didn't involve splitting his soul seven times, but rather capturing some of what was split in seven different "vessels" that he could consider making a replacement Horcrux for the diary. I really feel that Dumbledore thought this was a possibility and that's why he wanted his Horcrux hunt kept quiet. So, could there be another Horcrux Harry doesn't know about?

T Vrana - Oct 22, 2006 2:58 pm (#2684 of 2969)

I wonder, does the tear heal over time? Do you end up with a scarred soul, or does it not heal, and you have a permanently fragmented soul?

T Vrana - Oct 22, 2006 6:41 pm (#2685 of 2969)

I should clarify above post. If you murder someone and do not make a Horcrux, does the tear heal and scar or does the fragment remain torn.

SE- I would think LV would try to get back to 7. Perhaps he wants another go at Harry to replace the diary Horcrux, and this is why he will not let the DEs touch him. That way Harry doesn't have to find another one.

I would think LV would want to hear the prophecy first, as well...

shadzar - Oct 22, 2006 6:52 pm (#2686 of 2969)
Edited Oct 22, 2006 7:53 pm

T Vrana: I would think LV would try to get back to 7. Perhaps he wants another go at Harry to replace the diary Horcrux, and this is why he will not let the DEs touch him.

Maybe LV has figured out that Harry's scar may be a Horcrux and LV is not willing to lose another one, unless by his own hands, so he can make a new one from Harry's death. LV should know by now that Harry was the other person in the prophecy, because Harry could remove it from the shelf. So there is no other real reason to worry about the prophecy or keep Harry alive anymore unless LV feels that the scar has some significance to be of use to him.

T Vrana - Oct 22, 2006 7:15 pm (#2687 of 2969)

But I think he wants to hear the prophecy for himself since he's been thwarted by Harry so often. Doesn't want to risk Vapormort again.

I think he already knew it was about Harry, weren't his initials on it?

I do think he may suspect the link they have means Harry could be a Horcrux or Horcrux like.

S.E. Jones - Oct 22, 2006 9:00 pm (#2688 of 2969)

He definitely already knew the prophecy was about Harry. He used the vision of Sirius being tortured to get Harry to the Prophecy room for the specific purpose of getting him to take it off the shelf so he wouldn't have to.

Okay, I'll agree the scar may be Horcrux-like in as much as their minds are linked, but, as I posted earlier, if his scar was a scar were a Horcrux, then one would live as long as the other survived, which isn't how the prophecy was worded, in my view.

Phelim Mcintyre - Oct 23, 2006 1:06 am (#2689 of 2969)

If Nagini is a Horcrux I can see Hedwig, Crookshanks and Fawkes having a role in destroying it. Not sure why, may be there is a legend or myth I'm half thinking of.

Gerald Costales - Oct 23, 2006 5:36 am (#2690 of 2969)
Edited Oct 23, 2006 6:56 am

Snake Mythology *

Cows, monkeys and dogs are revered by some cultures yet consumed as food by others. So, too, snakes are respected in some parts of the world and despised in others. The way that people feel about snakes is heavily influenced by cultural beliefs and mythology.

Some cultures held snakes in high esteem as powerful religious symbols. Quetzalcoatl, the mythical "plumed serpent," was worshipped as the "Master of Life" by ancient Aztecs of Central America. Some African cultures worshipped rock pythons and considered the killing of one to be a serious crime. In Australia, the Aborigines associated a giant rainbow serpent with the creation of life.

Other cultures have associated snakes with medicinal powers or rebirth. In India, cobras were regarded as reincarnations of important people called Nagas. Our modern medical symbol of two snakes wrapped around a staff, or 'caduceus,' comes from ancient Greek mythology. According to the Greeks, the mythical figure Aesculapius discovered medicine by watching as one snake used herbs to bring another snake back to life.

Judeo-Christian culture has been less kind to snakes. Tales of the Garden of Eden and the serpent's role in "man's fall from grace" have contributed to a negative image of snakes in western culture. In Appalachia, some Christians handle venomous snakes as part of ritual ceremonies, relying on faith to protect them from bites. Among Catholics, Saint Patrick is credited with ridding Ireland of snakes, a feat celebrated by many as a good thing.

Deep rooted cultural biases may be responsible, in part, for widespread fear and disdain for snakes. However, modern myths, from folk tales to plain old misinformation, also contribute to their negative image.

Modern Myths

Folk Tales. Folk tales about snakes are handed down from generation to generation and include such things as snakes that charm prey, swallow their young for protection, poison people with their breath, roll like hoops, and suck milk from cows. These folk tales could be just interesting and amusing stories except that many people still believe them. As we learn more about the true nature of snakes, we can begin to base our perceptions of them on fact rather than fiction.

.*(Source for text and graphics - University of Massachusetts Amherst [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Myth: A snake can hypnotize birds and other prey. **

Truth: Snakes have no eyelids, and they never blink. Some species may also move their head from side to side to gain depth perception while hunting.

.**(Source for Myth: and Truth: - The Savannah River Ecology Laboratory of The University of Georgia [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The Mexica/Aztec were said to be guided by their god Huitzilopochtli, meaning "Left-handed Hummingbird" or "Hummingbird from the South". When they arrived at an island in the lake, they saw an eagle which was perched on a nopal cactus full of its fruits (nochtli). (Due to a mistranslation of an account by Tesozomoc, it became popular to say the eagle was devouring a snake, but in the original Aztec accounts, the snake is not mentioned. One states that it was eating a bird, another indicates that it was only perched in the cactus, and a third just says it was eating something.) This vision fulfilled a prophecy telling them that they should found their new home on that spot. The Aztecs built their city of Tenochtitlan on that site, building a great artificial island, which today is in the center of Mexico City. This legendary vision is pictured on the Coat of Arms of Mexico. ***

.***(Source for Aztec legend and the Coat of Arms of Mexico - Wikipedia - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

PS Phelim Mcintyre - Here's something from the Web.

PPS I can easily see Fawkes going after Nagini; just like when Fawkes attacked the Basilisk in the Chamber of Secrets. Or is that too similar. Anyway, Happy Hunting Fawkes!!!!! ;-) GC

Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 23, 2006 7:50 am (#2691 of 2969)

GC, would you mind linking your posts to the use of Mythology thread.

Choices - Oct 23, 2006 10:20 am (#2692 of 2969)

I was watching Animal Planet the other day and they were talking about how snakes are associated with immortality because of how they shed their skin. Sure made me think of Voldemort.

Gerald Costales - Oct 23, 2006 12:46 pm (#2693 of 2969)

Nathan - I'd link it to the Mythology thread if I knew how. Or I can just cut and paste it. It wasn't that complicated. ;-) GC

S.E. Jones - Oct 23, 2006 1:23 pm (#2694 of 2969)

I definitely agree that Fawkes will have a role in killing Nagini. Considering how useful he was in destroying the Basilisk (another snake) I can see Nagini being an easy target for him.

Columbine Fairy - Oct 25, 2006 4:46 am (#2695 of 2969)

Hi all! I am jumping straight into another thread again, forgive me...

I am re-reading OotP right now and I am wondering a lot about the trinket box (or whatever it was) in the Black house that had everyone feeling drowsy. I was thinking about the locket potion, and what Dumbledore said about Voldemort not wanting to kill the person who found it straight away so that he could find out who could get that close? Wouldn't it fit, enchanting a jewelry box so that he could later discover whoever got that close to it on the floor in an enchanted sleep? Of course, that only leaves the problem of how it got to the Black house in the first place...

Meoshimo - Oct 25, 2006 8:44 am (#2696 of 2969)

I like that idea, Columbine Fairy. I've always thought there was something more going on with the music box than simple dark magic.

T Vrana - Oct 25, 2006 7:22 pm (#2697 of 2969)

It was Ginny who had the sense to close the music box. Hasn't Jo said there is something special about Ginny. She's the seventh child of a seventh child, I think. As she was the one who closed the box rather than succumb to it, does she have some immunity to Dark Magic that will help Harry in his search for Horcruxes?

Columbine Fairy - Oct 25, 2006 10:19 pm (#2698 of 2969)

Perhaps her previous possession by Voldemort gave her some sort of immunity to it? Perhaps something in the vibrations/music of the tune felt familiar to her subconscious? If so, this would make her VERY important in the search for the Horcruxes, being able to sense Voldemort-vibes.

Here's another thought, would Harry be able to sense them, given his connection to Voldemort? We have seen that his scar hurts when he is near or being possessed by Voldemort, and when Voldemort feels particularly emotional, but it didn't when he was holding the diary, a bit of Voldemort's soul...

Gerald Costales - Oct 27, 2006 5:15 am (#2699 of 2969)
Edited Oct 27, 2006 7:39 am

Excerpts from the Lexicon essay - Ginny Weasley A Gryffindor and a Match for Harry

by Tim Lambarski

On the train JKR makes a connection between Harry and Ginny after the Dementors’ attack. Harry asks if anyone was affected as badly as him. Ginny, ‘huddled in her corner looking nearly as bad as Harry felt, gave a small sob,’ and Ron says, ‘Ginny was shaking like mad ... ’ (PA5). Perhaps she was affected more than the others because the Dementors were able to pull out the memories of her possession by Voldemort.

When Ginny arrives on the scene, she has a new agenda. She says hello to Harry ‘brightly’ and immediately joins in the conversation (OP4). Notice that she has waited until Harry has finished his tirade with Ron and Hermione, but unlike Fred and George, who chided Harry, she simply says, ‘I thought I heard your voice.’ It is as if he is just another friend. As we learn much later, she has been counseled by Hermione, who says Ginny gave up on Harry months ago. ‘‘Not that she doesn’t like you, of course,’ she added kindly to Harry... .. ’ (OP16).

As always, Ginny is sensitive to Harry’s feelings waiting until he has finished his tirade and not bringing it up. Later, she is able to defuse another potential tirade when she interrupts him: ‘‘We know, Harry,’ said Ginny earnestly’ (OP4). The observant reader will notice that her attention is always on Harry. Just one of many examples occurs after Ginny catches the Snitch against Hufflepuff. She plays down her achievement and tells Harry she would rather be a Chaser once Harry gets back. When Harry moans about his lifelong ban, she says it will only last while Umbridge is there (OP26). An earlier example is when Ron and Hermione have to leave Harry on the train to go to the prefect’s compartment. Ginny, perhaps sensing Harry’s disappointment, immediately suggests they look for a compartment themselves (OP10) even though she is seeing Michael Corner (OP17).

In this book Rowling makes clear the strong connection between Harry and Ginny as the only two who have had Voldemort inside their heads. After the attack on Mr. Weasley when Harry is loathe to see his friends or express his worries about being possessed, Ginny confronts him. ‘‘Well, that was a bit stupid of you,’ said Ginny angrily, ‘seeing as you don’t know anyone but me who’s been possessed by You-Know-Who, and I can tell you how it feels’’ (OP23).

One of the major themes in Order of the Phoenix is the unfolding of Ginny’s character. Rowling takes great pains to reveal the true Ginny over the course of the book. In OP4, Ginny tells them she tossed Dungbombs at the kitchen door (mischievous, resourceful). In OP6, George says size doesn’t matter; look at Ginny’s Bat-Bogey Hex (talented, spunky). Again in OP6, she shuts the enchanted music box (sensible, coolheaded). In OP10, she cleans the Stinksap with a Scourgify spell (skillful). In OP16, she says, ‘Hem, hem’ in imitation of Umbridge (sense of humor, good mimic). In OP18, she suggests the name ‘Dumbledore’s Army’ (intelligence, insight), and is seen to be ‘doing very well’ at D.A. (talented, quick learner). In OP26, Hermione says Ginny had been breaking into the shed since the age of six to use the twins’ brooms to practice Quidditch (resourceful, plucky). In OP29, she says she learned from Fred and George that anything’s possible if you’ve got the nerve (courage, optimism). In OP32, she agrees to help Harry in the plan to contact Sirius (eagerness, enthusiasm), and is later seen trying to kick the shins of her captor after being caught (fearless, defiant). In OP33, she will not be left behind (bravery, determination).

Excerpt from the Lexicon - Wizarding World - Dark Magic Items

number twelve, Grimmauld Place

The glass cabinets of the drawing room of this strange old house contained many items that seemed reluctant to leave their shelves. It is not known if these items were actually filled with Dark Magic or not, but some certainly seemed intent on causing harm. Other sinister items and objects were found throughout the house.

.* a music box that played a faintly sinister, tinkling tune when wound that nearly knocked everyone out (OP6)

PS Columbine Fairy, Meoshimo, & T Vrana - All great thoughts and ideas. But, I've found the Lexicon has a great deal of info to add to your posts.

PPS I still am not convinced that the ‘Scar’ is a Horcrux. ;-) GC

Gerald Costales - Oct 27, 2006 5:53 am (#2700 of 2969)
Edited Oct 27, 2006 8:07 am

(re: post #2694)

‘I definitely agree that Fawkes will have a role in killing Nagini. Considering how useful he was in destroying the Basilisk (another snake) I can see Nagini being an easy target for him.’ S.E. Jones

IMHO - I believe that Gryffindor’s Sword is a candidate as a possible Horcrux...

(from my post #406 in the + Fawkes and other Phoenixes Thread)

‘Not only does Fawkes bring Gryffindor’s Sword to Harry. But just read the following:

... He looked into Harry’s face. ‘But it makes no difference. In fact I prefer it this way. Just you and me, Harry Potter ... you and me ... ’
... He raised the wand ---
... Then, in a rush of wings, Fawkes had soared back overhead and something fell into Harry’s lap --- the diary.
... For a split second, both Harry and Riddle, wand still raised, stared at it. Then, without thinking, without considering, as though he had meant to do it all along, Harry seized the basilisk fang on the floor next to him and plunged it straight into the heart of the book.
... There was a long, dreadful, piercing scream. Ink spurted out of the diary in torrents, streaming over Harry’s hands, flooding the floor. Riddle was writhing and twisting, screaming and flailing and then ---
... He had gone. Harry’s wand fell to the floor with a clatter and there was silence... (page 322, CoS, American edition)

Fawkes just drops Tom’s Diary in Harry’s lap. ;-) GC

I’d bet that we should expect Fawkes returning and helping Harry in Book 7.

PS Hasn’t it always been about Fawkes!!! No Fawkes, No Yew Wand or No Holly Wand. No Brother Wands and Voldemort is Victorious in the Graveyard!!! ;-) GC’

PPS The Diary was a Horcrux and - IMHO - Gryffindor’s Sword was to be the Sixth and Final Horcrux that fateful Night. Trouble was Voldemort’s AK rebounded to create Harry’s ‘Scar’.

Curious how these things happen *cough* Prophecy *cough*!!!!! ;-) GC

PPPS Maybe it's Fawkes who is sensitive to Horcruxes and will be the one to guide Harry in the Hunt for the Final Four Horcruxes. ;-) GC

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Potteraholic Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:47 pm

Gerald Costales - Oct 28, 2006 6:34 am (#2701 of 2969)
Edited Oct 28, 2006 8:15 am

Some Problems with Splitting the Soul and Horcruxes

I think some of us all have some problems with ‘Horcrux Making’. Here are two excerpts from the HBP and some additional thoughts from others in the Forum.

… ‘How do you split your soul?’
… Well, said Slughorn uncomfortably, ‘you must understand that the soul is supposed to remain intact and whole. Splitting it is an act of violation, it is against nature.’
… ‘But how do you do it?’
… ‘By an act of evil --- the supreme act of evil. By committing murder. Killing rips the soul apart. The wizard intent upon creating a Horcrux would use the damage to his advantage: He would encase the torn portion ---’
… ‘Encase? But how ---’
… ‘There is a spell, do not ask me, I don’t know!’ said Slughorn, shaking his head like an old elephant bothered by mosquitoes. ‘Do I look as though I have tried it --- do I look like a killer?’

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

… ‘Yes, sir,’ said Riddle. ‘What I don’t understand, though --- just out of curiosity --- I mean, would one Horcrux be much use? Can you only split your soul once? Wouldn’t if be better, make you stronger, to have your soul in more pieces, I mean, for instance, isn’t seven the most powerfully magical number, wouldn’t seven ---?’
… ‘Merlin’s beard, Tom!’ yelped Slughorn. ‘Seven! Isn’t it bad enough to think of killing one person? And in any case ... bad enough to divide the soul... but to rip it into seven pieces ...’
(pages 497 and 498, HBP, American edition)

Comment: So, the creation of a Horcrux is a two-part process. First, a murder rips the Soul. Then the ripped portion of the Soul is encased with a Spell. (Not too complicated at this point.)

Now, a few additional thoughts from others. (This was a quick search and definitely not complete.)

shadzar- Sep 26, 2006 11:55 am (#2480 from the +Horcruxes Thread)

‘my post on another site

ok a Horcrux is made by splitting your soul. It would seem that when making one Horcrux you split your soul into two parts so no problem, but splitting your soul into 7 parts would make it a little more difficult to do it evenly if not all done at one time. But since the diary was one then this cant be true unless all the Horcruxes were made at that time. Still possible.’

‘but splitting your soul into 7 parts would make it a little more difficult to do it evenly ... ’

Comment: shadzar, raises an excellent point that at this time remains unanswered.

Choices - Jun 29, 2006 11:40 am (#2354 from the +Horcruxes Thread)

‘Solitaire - "Choices, I wonder ... since Harry was not actually killed by Voldemort's AK, then would his soul have split at that time? If not, then how could Harry be a Horcrux? On the other hand, is it only the intent to kill that matters?" ‘

... ’since Harry was not actually killed by Voldemort's AK ... then how could Harry be a Horcrux?’

Comment: I agree ‘How could Harry be a Horcrux?’ Was Lily’s Soul encased and the Spell to create a Horcrux recited? I doubt it!!! :

rambkowalczyk - May 22, 2006 10:37 am (#2163 from the +Horcruxes Thread)

‘Is it possible that Harry isn't a Horcrux and yet still have a piece of Voldemort's soul in him?

Consider Voldemort kills Harry's mom. His soul splits. It doesn't have to float away or anything.

Because Lily sacrifices herself, Harry is protected when Voldemort AK's him.

The spell rebounds and hits Voldemort vaporizing his body and the soul attached to it. The piece of soul that was split due to Lily's murder is free now. The two murders happened within minutes so it's not implausible. The soul goes to the closest living thing which is Harry.

Harry is not corrupted by the soul because the soul is not evil. Voldemort's evilness comes from his choices.

It is possible that Voldemort's soul that resides in Harry is not a Horcrux and needs to be destroyed, but an entity that needs to be released so Voldemort can be properly dead.’

‘Is it possible that Harry isn't a Horcrux and yet still have a piece of Voldemort's soul in him?’

Comment: ramb - Another excellent point that ,again, at this time remains unanswered.’

Mrs Brisbee - May 22, 2006 6:21 am (#2158 from the +Horcruxes Thread)

‘ ... It is murder, not Horcrux making, that splits the soul in the first place. The rebounded AK is what made the scar, and the scar is the point of the connection between Harry and Voldemort. At the moment the scar was made, Voldemort was intent on murdering Harry. By all rights, Voldemort’s soul should have split in that instant he was sending out his magic to kill Harry. But it all went horribly wrong (from Voldemort's point of view, anyway), and the rebounded AK did weird things instead. I believe in Accidental Horcrux-Like Harry. I think Horcruxes give us an idea of what can happen with loose soul bits, without necessarily meaning the Horcrux incantation was involved. Rowling was very vague on the whole How To Make A Horcrux thing, she can do just about anything with it at this point.’

‘The rebounded AK is what made the scar, and the scar is the point of the connection between Harry and Voldemort.’

Comment: Mrs Brisbee - The ‘Scar’ connects Voldemort and Harry. But - Is the ‘Scar’ just a special ‘Scar’ because of this ability? Or - Is the ‘Scar’ Horcrux-like with a bit of Voldemort’s Soul in the ‘Scar’? Tough question with no easy answers.

But, let’s try another perspective. I believe we have approached the Soul from only an ‘Occidental’ point of view. So, let’s try to use an ‘Oriental’ point of view.

liïbiïdo

1. The psychic and emotional energy associated with instinctual biological drives.

(Source - The Free Dictionary by Farlex - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Excerpts from Chi and Libido

* From the Foreword To understand a human being, one needs to understand the life force. Freud used the libido to describe the life force; Jung used instinct and psychic energy. Chinese Taoism, 2,600 years ago, used Chi. Each developed a particular viewpoint.

(Source: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I haven’t read Chi and Libido. I just want to present a broader concept of the ‘libido’ that just doesn’t focus on only our ‘sex drive’ . ;-) GC

PS More later. I’m breaking this up into small parts for easier reading. ;-) GC

T Vrana - Oct 28, 2006 7:22 am (#2702 of 2969)
Edited Oct 28, 2006 8:26 am

On splitting the soul multiple times and getting even pieces. Slughorn said that murder rips the soul, not splits. I don't think we are to assume the soul splits in half each time to get 6 Horcruxes with ever diminishing sized pieces, just that a tear is created and the torn portion can be encased in a Horcrux. I would wonder if some murders are more egregious than others, killing innocent Harry versus an adult for instance, and create larger tears...

TheSaint - Oct 28, 2006 9:50 am (#2703 of 2969)

Interesting thought T. Hermione did say something about not killing babies. I would think it would be a bigger tear.

Gerald Costales - Oct 28, 2006 10:41 am (#2704 of 2969)

"... a tear is created and the torn portion can be encased in a Horcrux." T Vrana

T Vrana - Why assume that the tear is encased in the Horcrux. Some people believe that the murders of Tom Riddle's Father, and two Grandparents could possibly have been used to create either one or as many as three Horcruxes.

You have memories in small glass phials - Why not torn fragments of one's Soul?

"Interesting thought T. Hermione did say something about not killing babies. I would think it would be a bigger tear." The Saint

The Saint - That does make sense. ;-) GC

T Vrana - Oct 28, 2006 11:06 am (#2705 of 2969)
Edited Oct 28, 2006 12:08 pm

Gerald, are you suggesting LV could store bits of his soul in a glass phial? I thought Slughorn was pretty clear that the way to take advantage of the tear was to create a Horcrux, which encases the torn bit of soul and keeps it bound to this side of the veil. I don't think the soul can be stored in a phial until the Horcrux is made, what would keep it there? I had thought the spell to create a Horcrux removed the bit of soul from the killer’s body and bound it to the object which kept it on side of the veil.

I thought anyone who murders, but does not make a Horcrux, suffers the tear, but that bit remains with the body, and may even have a chance to heal. You end up with a scarred soul. That is why DEs still appear more human, they have their torn souls still in their bodies. LV looks almost blurred to Harry when he returns for the DADA job, I think because so much of his soul has been removed from his body.

Just a thought...

Choices - Oct 28, 2006 5:05 pm (#2706 of 2969)

I personally do not think a piece of soul can be removed from the body except by saying the incantation used to make a Horcrux. I see it like Dumbledore placing his wand to his temple to remove a thought and put it in the pensieve. I believe Voldemort places his wand on his body (possibly over his heart) and removes the soul piece while saying the incantation, and then places it into the object he has chosen to make into a Horcrux.

Gerald Costales - Oct 28, 2006 8:28 pm (#2707 of 2969)

(Re: post #2706)

Choices - Would that be two separate incantations/spells* or one special Horcrux creating incantation/spell**?

.* A combo AK + Horcrux Spell. (Similar to a One - Two Punch Combo in boxing.)

.** Only one Spell that is not an AK. But, a Special Spell used to Kill and encase the torn Soul Bit. (Similar to the Special Closing Move of a Professional Wrestler.) (You know like the ‘Rock Bottom’ for the Rock. Hey, my kids used to watch WWE Wrestling.)

How long does the Soul remain torn? Minutes, Hours, Days, etc.

‘... I believe Voldemort places his wand on his body (possibly over his heart) and removes the soul piece while saying the incantation, and then places it into the object he has chosen to make into a Horcrux.’

I really love this description, but I still have some unanswered questions (as we all do) about the whole Horcrux making process. ;-) GC

Choices - Oct 29, 2006 9:40 am (#2708 of 2969)
Edited Oct 29, 2006 10:45 am

Gerald - "Would that be two separate incantations/spells* or one special Horcrux creating incantation/spell**?"

Just one spell/incantation - a murder is committed, the soul splits or tears, and then later (how much later I don't know) the wizard gets the object he plans to use to encase the piece of soul, says the spell/incantation, extracts the soul piece using his wand, and places it into the object - presto-chango, a Horcrux is created. I believe the creation of the Horcrux is a separate act from the murder, although the murder is essential to tear the soul.

TheSaint - Oct 29, 2006 12:08 pm (#2709 of 2969)

Choices...what if multiple murders are committed? More than one tear? How do you pull out the significant one?

Gerald Costales - Oct 29, 2006 1:49 pm (#2710 of 2969)
Edited Oct 29, 2006 2:53 pm

"... what if multiple murders are committed? More than one tear? How do you pull out the significant one?" The Saint

When Tom killed his Father and both Grandparents is a good case of multiple murders. (I believe most of us think all three of them were murdered at the same time with three separate AK's. Or were they?)

That's why I'm suggesting that a torn Soul Bit could be stored and then encased in a Horcrux at a latter time. That way no wasted Soul Bits. For Voldemort, the person killed is probably as important as the item that is to become a Horcrux. ;-) GC

Columbine Fairy - Oct 29, 2006 3:28 pm (#2711 of 2969)

Choices, I agree with your theory, and that is why I believe Harry cannot be a Horcrux. After attempting to kill Harry and losing his physical self, Voldemort would not have been able to perform the spell to move the torn part of the soul into a separate item.

I'm not sure about your theory though, Gerald - I mean, we know that Voldemort committed many more murders than he wanted Horcruxes for, didn't he? I think that while murder does tear the soul to leave it scarred, the torn bit would still stay attached unless the specific incantation is said to remove it.

HungarianHorntail11 - Oct 29, 2006 4:04 pm (#2712 of 2969)
Edited Oct 29, 2006 5:12 pm

Jumping back for a bit to Soul Search’s Post #2545 - I would like to add my two cents worth. You raise a good question but using the incident with baby Harry as a guideline, it seems as though AK is a powerful spell. That being said, if it goes awry (as in not killing Big V due to Horcruxes) then it might be safe to say that the one who casts the AK is in for a rebounded AK, (i.e., certain death).

Regarding Nathan's Post #2553 . I would like to add that there is another superstition connected to the opal - if it is not the wearer's birthstone, it will bring bad luck onto the wearer. If this is true, we can modify this by perhaps thinking Big V would make it so he alone could touch it. I strongly believe Harry is a Horcrux (I also feel the spell needs to be performed before the murder takes place, showing premeditation/intent) and if it is true, then Harry, too, can hold the necklace without being harmed. Just some food for thought.

To clarify - I am neither for nor against the idea that it is a Horcrux, as I feel there are plausible arguments for both sides.

T Vrana - Oct 29, 2006 4:24 pm (#2713 of 2969)
Edited Oct 29, 2006 5:27 pm

HH 11- I agree with the idea that the incantation must be done first. I think that the torn bits of soul left over from Lily's and James' murders, torn for LV's soul but still in his body, would have been 'free' when LV's body was destroyed by the rebounding AK and LV’s main soul fled. I think it may be bit of soul from Lily's murder that found its way to Harry, because of the incantation done before the attempt on Harry's life. Normally those bits from James and Lily's murders would have stayed in LV's body, as he had not tried to make a Horcrux, or said the incantation. But with their host (his body) destroyed, they were free to travel.

Choices - Oct 29, 2006 5:01 pm (#2714 of 2969)

Ok, let me answer The Saint's question by posing a question..... .When you want to review a memory by placing it in the pensieve, how do you get the correct memory to come out? I confess I do not know the answer, but I would imagine you get the correct soul piece out in the same way. Perhaps you just think about the murder/memory and the right one surfaces and is extracted on the tip of your wand. That's the best answer I can come up with. :-)

HungarianHorntail11 - Oct 29, 2006 5:36 pm (#2715 of 2969)

I know you didn't direct this question to me, Choices but I hope you don't mind if I take a stab at it. I tend to think that the Horcrux spell is placed on the receptacle prior to the murder. That way, as each murder is committed, the soul bit takes its place in the receptacle. (Have I been thinking of this for far too long?)

as he had not tried to make a Horcrux - T Vrana

Memory may not serve me correctly but I don't think we were given such information. Big V could have performed the spell on his way up the stairs to get Harry.

T Vrana - Oct 29, 2006 6:10 pm (#2716 of 2969)
Edited Oct 29, 2006 7:10 pm

HH 11- I agree with your first bit there.

I was saying LV did not try to make a Horcrux with the murder of James or Lily. Then, recited the incantation to make a Horcrux with Harry. The incantation was in play, but Harry was not murdered. The AK rebounded and destroyed LV's body. Given the two murders, I would think LV had three parts of his soul in his body. His 'main' soul, and the two torn bits from James' and Lily's murders. With his body gone, these two extra bits are free. I think it possible the torn bit from Lily's murder may have found its way to Harry, as she sacrificed for him.

What of the item intended as a Horcrux in Harry's murder? Perhaps the rebounding AK destroyed it, or, the bit from James' murder created a Horcrux, unbeknownst to LV. This last bit may be tough for Harry to figure out, though. I lean toward the item being destroyed when LV's body was destroyed.

Sorry for the confusion.....

Gerald Costales - Oct 29, 2006 6:37 pm (#2717 of 2969)
Edited Oct 29, 2006 7:55 pm

"I lean toward the item being destroyed when LV's body was destroyed." T Vrana

With the Potter's home in ruins, it would appear that the intended item to be made into a Horcrux was possibly destroyed. And AK's and other spells do rebound. But, what are the chances of Voldemort's AK hitting Harry and rebounding twice to vaporize and destroy both Voldemort's body and the intended Horcrux.

If the Opal necklace was there that night, then the necklace wasn't destroyed and could still be a possible intended Horcrux. But, I'm still thinking that James had Gryffindor's Sword or (if some of you are right) Voldemort had Gryffindor's Sword.

I feel the fact that the Potter's home is in Godric's Hollow is no mere coincidence and that Gryffindor's Sword was the intended sixth and final Horcrux.

PS I'm not willing to commit to if the Horcrux Pocus making spell is used before or after a murder. ;-) GC

PPS If the Horcrux Pocus making spell is used after the murder the correct Soul Bit (James and Lily were murdered and Harry could have been murdered) would need to be extracted and then encased into the intended Horcrux. ;-) GC

T Vrana - Oct 29, 2006 6:45 pm (#2718 of 2969)
Edited Oct 29, 2006 7:53 pm

GC- I don't see the rebound as a focused rebound, it destroyed an entire house. Think of pointing a high powered water hose at a shield. The resulting spray back goes everywhere.

I do think there may be more to that necklace.

OK, gross possibility. If the sword was Gryffindor's last relic, and LV had not managed to get his hands on it, but knew Harry was Gryffindor's heir, the last Gryffindor(which explains why James was always going to die), is it possible that baby Harry was intended as victim and Horcrux? That he was the last relic of Gryffindor, and in the prophecy is why LV chose him, and planned to make him his final Horcrux?

Is that too disgusting to contemplate?

EDIT- DD did say only a true Gryffindor could pull the sword from the hat. Perhaps he meant a true Gryffindor as in descendent, not just sorted into Gryffindor.

Thom Matheson - Oct 29, 2006 6:52 pm (#2719 of 2969)

Why are all of you so certain that Lily and James were Horcrux murders? Voldemort has murdered lots. And, once he has his 6 in place he no longer needs to count. He can just kill at will. I believe that all of his Horcruxes were in place long before that night at Godric Hollow, creating his air of invincibility.

T Vrana - Oct 29, 2006 6:58 pm (#2720 of 2969)

I don't think James and Lily were Horcrux murders. I think those torn bits of soul may have been freed when their host, LV's body, was vaporized by the rebounding AK. Every murder creates a tear. It is taking advantage of the tear, and saying the incantation that makes a Horcrux. LV did not, as far as we know, create Horcruxes with James' and Lily's murders, but the tears were there, then the soul bits' host, LV's body, was destroyed. Floating bits if soul in the room...

DD thought he needed one more at Godric's Hollow.

Plus, how many murders did he really do himself? We don't know.

Gerald Costales - Oct 29, 2006 7:04 pm (#2721 of 2969)
Edited Oct 29, 2006 8:17 pm

"Why are all of you so certain that Lily and James were Horcrux murders?" Thom Matheson

I think that Harry was the intended Horcrux victim and both James and Lily died protecting Harry.

Footnote: Fawkes brought TWO things to Harry in the CoS. First Gryffindor's Sword and then dropped Tom's Diary in Harry's lap. (Another mere coincidence!!!) The Diary was a Horcrux. So, why not think that the Sword could have been an intended Horcrux. ;-) GC

PS What does Slughorn mean by taking advantage of a tear created by a Murder? Multiple murders do confuse how a torn Soul Bit or the correct Soul Bit is used. And whether there are floating Soul Bits from James' and Lily's deaths is a possibility since it doesn't appear any Horcrux was made that night. (Again, I don't believe Harry or Harry's "Scar" is a Horcrux.) ;-) GC

T Vrana - Oct 29, 2006 7:06 pm (#2722 of 2969)
Edited Oct 29, 2006 8:09 pm

I think it could have been!

But if LV couldn't get his hands on it...

And if it was the intended Horcrux, and we are theorizing that LV had two torn pieces with no place to go once his body was destroyed, and that he had intended to make a Horcrux with Harry, why wouldn't one of the bits have made it to the intended Horcrux, the sword?

Nathan Zimmermann - Oct 29, 2006 8:23 pm (#2723 of 2969)

Thom. the reasoning behind the view that murder of the Potters may have been part intended for the creation of the sixth Horcrux, is due to the fact that Voldemort was eventually forced to use the murder of Frank Bryce to transform Nagini into his sixth Horcrux.

TheSaint - Oct 30, 2006 12:05 am (#2724 of 2969)

T Vrana - but knew Harry was Gryffindor's heir, the last Gryffindor(which explains why James was always going to die), is it possible that baby Harry was intended as victim and Horcrux? That he was the last relic of Gryffindor, and in the prophecy is why LV chose him, and planned to make him his final Horcrux?

Anelli, Melissa and Emerson Spartz. "The Leaky Cauldron and MuggleNet interview Joanne Kathleen Rowling: Part Three," The Leaky Cauldron, 16 July 2005

MA: That sort of shuts down Heir of Gryffindor[theories], as well.
JKR: [Pause.] Yeah. Well - yeah.
MA: Another one bites the dust.

Not the Heir.

What if Harry is not a Horcrux (per se) but a free floating piece of soul was placed in him by Dumbledore. That piece of soul is brought up in love, learns to love. Since it is not a Horcrux, it can return to Voldie 's body. And since Voldy cannot stand to dwell where love resides..... ... he is destroyed by his own hand...and Harry's love was the key.

I just liked the way that fit together. Please deconstruct at will. LOL

S.E. Jones - Oct 30, 2006 12:58 am (#2725 of 2969)

Thom -- I believe that all of his Horcruxes were in place long before that night at Godric Hollow, creating his air of invincibility.--

I think we can take Dumbledore's guess at Voldemort intending to use Harry to make his sixth and last Horcrux as it would seem that he made Nagini the last Horcrux later after his plans ran afoul.

Gerald Costales --What does Slughorn mean by taking advantage of a tear created by a Murder?--

I think we keep assuming that the piece of soul is completely dislodged by a murder. All Slughorn really says is that the soul tears. It's possible to tear something, like a piece of paper, without tearing the piece completely off. What if a murder tears the soul, so it has rips in several places, but the Horcrux spell actually tears the rip loose from the main soul as it deposits it in the Horcrux object? Otherwise, wouldn't Voldemort's disembodied soul look like confetti from all the murders he's committed over the years? I think we can assume that the "Horcrux Pocus" spell (as Gerald called it) is done after the murder. I say this because, as Nathan pointed out, Voldemort seemed to have made Nagini into a Horcrux with Frank Bryce's death, but it would also seem that he got the idea to use her as a Horcrux after killing Frank. Now, there are all sorts of possibilities (he thinks of it after killing Frank but kills someone else to make the actual Horcrux, for example) but I'm just thinking of what we've actually seen or been told in canon.

TheSaint --Anelli, Melissa and Emerson Spartz. "The Leaky Cauldron and MuggleNet interview Joanne Kathleen Rowling: Part Three," The Leaky Cauldron, 16 July 2005

MA: That sort of shuts down Heir of Gryffindor[theories], as well.
JKR: [Pause.] Yeah. Well - yeah.
MA: Another one bites the dust.

Not the Heir.--

If I remember correctly, they were saying that the "Heir of Gryffindor" theory was shot down because they had just been told that James's parents just died of illness, not murder, and some (although not all) of the "Heir of Gryffindor" theories centered around the idea that Harry's entire family was being wiped out by the Heir of Slytherin because they were the Heirs of Gryffindor. However, neither Melissa nor Emerson nor JKR addressed the other "Heir" theories that center on the idea that the Potters being heirs is irrelevant except in showing how the story has come full circle or because of some other small tie in because Voldemort is unaware of the relationship to a Founder. For instance, any importance of Hepzibah Smith being an Heir of Hufflepuff seemed to center on the fact that it made her a target of Voldemort's because she happened to have an object belonging to Hufflepuff (and one that belonged to Slytherin in some way). See what I mean? Nothing in the interview discounts the other forms of the "Heir" theory that don't center on the grandparents being killed by Voldemort.

--What if Harry is not a Horcrux (per se) but a free floating piece of soul was placed in him by Dumbledore. That piece of soul is brought up in love, learns to love. Since it is not a Horcrux, it can return to Voldie 's body. And since Voldy cannot stand to dwell where love resides..... ... he is destroyed by his own hand...and Harry's love was the key.--

Very poetic, but I don't know about the "free floating piece of soul" (see explanation above).

Columbine Fairy - Oct 30, 2006 3:51 am (#2726 of 2969)

Sorry, Saint, but I have to agree with SEJ on this one. Why on earth would Dumbledore put a piece of Voldemort's soul into Harry, knowing it would have to be destroyed?

Another question, which I'm not sure is directly related to this thread, but which I better get down before I forget it, but everyone (Dumbledore included) is presuming that Nagini became a Horcrux with the murder of Frank Bryce. But didn't Voldemort kill Bertha Jorkins before he killed Frank? This may not be significant even if it is true, but it's been bothering me ever since I read that passage in the book.

T Vrana - Oct 30, 2006 5:47 am (#2727 of 2969)

se- On the Heir- Jo's answer was a little odd, as well:

"Yeah. Well--yeah."

That well leaves room...

Also, for those who say LV has killed lots of people. Sirius said his brother, a defecting DE, was not important enough for LV to kill him personally. While we know many have died, how many did LV kill, versus how many murders did he order his DEs to commit, or Imperiused witches and wizards to commit. I don't think we know that LV committed a significant number of murders personally.

Gerald Costales - Oct 30, 2006 6:01 am (#2728 of 2969)

" But didn't Voldemort kill Bertha Jorkins before he killed Frank? This may not be significant even if it is true, but it's been bothering me ever since I read that passage in the book." Columbine Fairy

CF - Not every murder or death that Voldemort committed is used to create a Horcrux. i.e. Lily, James, Cedric, and probably Bertha.

Bertha's death gave two important pieces of information to Voldemort -

1. Barty Crouch Jr was alive and under his Father’s Imperious Curse.
2. That MoM was planning the Triwizard Tournament at Hogwarts.

Barty Crouch Jr escaped from Winky. Crouch Jr most return to Voldemort. They plan for Crouch Jr to replace Mad Eye via the Polyjuice Potion. Harry is set up as a Champion. The Triwizard Cup (similar by the way to Hufflepuff’s Cup) is made a Portkey. And we have the momentous Confrontation at the Graveyard and the locking of the Brother Wands.

PS I’ve always thought that the whole Graveyard scene will become more important later on. With Book 7 being released sooner or later us faithful readers will hopefully see how significant that scene is to the total Story.

PPS Some people are proposing that Voldemort would change his Wand (Tom’s Yew Wand) to avoid Harry’s Wand (Harry’s Holly Wand). That is a possibility. But, I don’t feel that way. Yew is symbolic of Death. And besides Voldemort always has other things up is sleeve. Look at the defenses surrounding the Fake Horcrux and the Horcruxes themselves to try and thwart Harry and the Order, ;-) GC

Thom Matheson - Oct 30, 2006 7:10 am (#2729 of 2969)

We can't count Cedric as Wormtail did the killing. As for Harry, what would have been the point. His personal mission was to create immortality, as we know this from his DADA interview with Dumbledore. That was a long time before any prophecy was given. I believe that his 6 Horcruxes were in place long before that night in GH. Besides, once he caught the rebound with Harry, he no longer had arms, ergo; wouldn't have been able to wave a wand. There cannot be a Horcrux in Harry, unless you believe that Horcrux creation can be performed without a wand. Doubt that.

We know that he killed at least 6 without the Potter family. But, we are talking about murders committed over a 17 to 20 year period, before the Godric Hollow night.

T Vrana - Oct 30, 2006 7:26 am (#2730 of 2969)

There cannot be a Horcrux in Harry, unless you believe that Horcrux creation can be performed without a wand. Doubt that.

Not necessarily true.

LV was in a unique position when he tried to kill Harry. He had just torn his soul twice, killing James and Lily. We assume those bits of soul remain in the body, if a Horcrux is not created. But what happens when that body is destroyed? If the pieces were free of the main soul (not just torn), and there was any preparation to create a Horcrux, it is not inconceivable that Harry became an accidental Horcrux or accidently Horcrux like.

We just don't know enough to prove or disprove this possibility:

1) Is it just a tear, or is it torn away from the soul?
2) When do you perform the spell to create the Horcrux?
3) What was LV planning to use as the Horcrux.
4) Does the Horcrux object, once enchanted, act like a magnet for the bit of soul, pulling it from the body, or does the piece get placed in the Horcrux, memory-like (I prefer the first option).

Some things went wrong that night that were not expected, and that had never happened before. Given Harry's abilities, that he may be Horcrux like, remains a possibility.

Thom Matheson - Oct 30, 2006 8:09 am (#2731 of 2969)

Why would he need it. Are you saying that over a 20 some year period Voldemort would not have filled his personal quota of 6 Horcruxes? If he is filled up so to speak, any further cutting would leave the original soul cut up into 8 or 9 or more parts, not the lucky 7 he wanted. Why do you think that James and Lily were needed at all. We don't know what was transferred between Harry and Voldemort. But from Slughorn's explanation, one would have to want to make a Horcrux with the bit that was torn. If Voldemort had his quota filled what is the need to even think that way. I don't believe that it bits of souls can be transferred in the way you are suggesting. It requires a considerable amount of magic and a wand to make it happen.

T Vrana - Oct 30, 2006 8:33 am (#2732 of 2969)

I don't think he needed James or Lily. Not sure where you are getting that from. He killed James and Lily. Every murder tears the soul. Therefore, he tore his soul when he killed James and Lily. But, as far as we know, he did not create Horcruxes with James and Lily.

DD thinks that LV only creates Horcruxes with significant murders, not just any murder. Further, for whatever reason, he also thinks LV's quota was not filled on the night LV went to kill Harry. It may be that DD knows who LV has personally killed (it is Fawkes tail feather in his wand, after all), so perhaps DD knew that until that night, LV had only personally killed 5 people, or only 5 that were Horcrux worthy.

If LV knows he wants to make 6 Horcruxes, and that every murder tears the soul, and that he wants significant murders to make those Horcruxes, then it follows that he did not personally murder hundreds of people. That would mess with his plans to make 6 significant Horcruxes (significant murders and objects). His soul would be a mess...

I think LV limited his personal murders, and had his DEs do his dirty work most of the time.

If the incantation requires a wand and a Horcrux object before the murder, the magic would already be in place when LV vaporized himself. Yes, requires a wand, when is the question.

haymoni - Oct 30, 2006 9:06 am (#2733 of 2969)

That's the whole problem.

When it comes to Horcruxes, we don't know diddly squat.

We need clarification!!!

Gerald Costales - Oct 30, 2006 9:45 am (#2734 of 2969)

‘That's the whole problem.

When it comes to Horcruxes, we don't know diddly squat.

We need clarification!!!’ haymoni

haymoni - We know a few things. The trouble are the nuts and bolts. The step by step process of Horcrux making.

Some may call into question Dumbledore’s judgment. Especially, after Snape showed his true colors. And most of Dumbledore’s DADA choices are also as poor. (But, if there were no human foibles, there would be no Story. James picked Peter as his Secret Keeper and there are, I’m sure, a list of major judgment calls that could have swayed the Story one way or the other.)

But, what’s Harry’s point of view ---

‘... If Dumbledore was right --- and I’m sure he was --- there are still four of them out there. I’ve got to find them and destroy them, and then I’ve got to go after the seventh bit of Voldemort’s soul, that’s still in his body, and I’m the one who’s going to kill him. And if I meet Severus Snape along the way,’ he added, ‘so much the better for me, so much the worse for him.’ (page 651, HBP, American edition)

It doesn’t seem to me that Harry is the least stoic, dispassionate, or emotionless in regards to killing Voldemort and/or Snape. And Harry plans to look for only FOUR remaining Horcruxes and not four and one/half or five, etc.

And since Harry’s is Dumbledore’s man, Harry will be searching for ---

‘ ... the locket, the cup, the snake ... something of Gryffindor’s or Ravenclaw’s ... ‘ (pages 636, HBP, American edition)

PS It seems to me that Harry isn't a Horcrux. ;-) GC

HungarianHorntail11 - Oct 30, 2006 11:06 am (#2735 of 2969)

From a reasoning standpoint, she gave us the diary, the locket, the cup and the snake. Why wouldn't she just give us the last item - even if we hadn't yet been introduced to it - unless it is something spectacular, like Harry.

T Vrana - Oct 30, 2006 11:13 am (#2736 of 2969)

HH 11- Interesting point!

Mattew Bates - Oct 30, 2006 1:47 pm (#2737 of 2969)

I'm cross-posting this to the Horcruxes, Inferi, and Cave threads. It's an expansion on some things brought up in the R.A.B. - Your Thoughts? thread, but the ideas don't really concern R.A.B., and the conversation about it had died down there anyway, so I thought relocation to be the best option.

Voldemort would have wanted to be able to check on the cave without anyone's assistance. Indeed, he set up the cave so that only one fully qualified wizard could make it to the center at any given time, so I'm not sure that he could bring help even if he wanted to. Still, the way Dumbledore found past the potion required assistance. For Voldy to have an unassisted way past, it should involve one of the following:

1) a way past the barrier at the surface of the potion (a dark mark barrier or similar) 2) a potion that does him no harm (no conscience = no regrets) 3) a non-wizard assistant (like Harry or Kreacher) 4) carrying in an antidote to the potion 5) having another way to neutralize the potion

This small bundle of interlocking theories involves the fifth way past. Hypothetically, Voldy goes to check up on the cave. Once on the pedestal island, he summons a specific Inferius (something he can presumably do as its creator), and retrieves Hufflepuff's Cup from it. He uses it to drink the pedestal potion. This hinges on the idea that the intrinsic magic of the cup would neutralize the ill effects of the potion. After all, many Holy Grail myths involve it having poison neutralizing powers.

Pure speculation, surely, but it still answers the question as to why a body rose to the surface when Harry Accio'd a Horcrux. It has the added benefit of convenience, as no special preparations are necessary for Voldy to check the Horcruxes at the drop of a hat.

The biggest detractor to this theory, as far as I can see, is that Voldy would be unlikely to risk hiding two of his precious shiny things on one place. Still, putting one at the obvious focal point in the middle of the lake would certainly distract from the possible presence of another.

P.S. - as I was writing this, it occurred to me that if Voldy can order around the Inferi, then he could probably make them drink the potion per option 3. A bit more in line with Occam's Razor, but I still like all three of my theories.

T Vrana - Oct 30, 2006 2:06 pm (#2738 of 2969)

Matthew-

I have a problem with #1, it would leave the Horcrux vulnerable to a DE and I don't think LV trusts anyone, not even those who think they are his most trusted.

#2 is intriguing, but thirst did seem to be part of the effect, not just the regrets. The regrets seemed more devised to stop the drinker, while the thirst would bring forth the Inferi if a drinker were successful.

#3, well, DD did it! (and maybe RAB)

#4- I have wondered why DD, when Horcrux hunting, doesn't have a bezoar in his pocket! The problem here is that you need the wherewithal to take the antidote, and DD didn't seem in any condition. In addition, I think that like DD's goblet, a container brought to the island may very well empty. There did seem to be a 'lake water only' spell in effect.

I'm torn on the Hufflepuff cup, for the same reasons you are.

I never thought of the Inferi idea, but like it. As you know I also assumed LV could Imperius someone to go for him.

I do wonder if the potion must be consumed to leave the island? Otherwise someone could get there, get the idea the potion must be drunk, leave and come back with a helper, or Imperius someone. So, I think the potion must be consumed if you reach the island.

S.E. Jones - Oct 30, 2006 3:07 pm (#2739 of 2969)

--If LV knows he wants to make 6 Horcruxes, and that every murder tears the soul, and that he wants significant murders to make those Horcruxes, then it follows that he did not personally murder hundreds of people. That would mess with his plans to make 6 significant Horcruxes (significant murders and objects). His soul would be a mess...--

Well, it would seem that he's performed more killings than his Horcruxes required. What Horcruxes were made with the three Riddle murders? I originally thought he killed them and then made the diary a Horcrux, but that just doesn't seem to fit with what we know of the timeline. He killed the three Riddles, then asked Slughorn how to make a Horcrux (so he didn't already know, and thus couldn't have done it), then it would seem he left Hogwarts and killed Hepzibah Smith and took the cup and locket (did he know how to make a Horcrux by then, who would've told him if he couldn't learn something like that at Hogwarts) and then he drops out of sight and finds dark wizards to teach him. It sounds there like he's already killed four people (that we know of) before he even started training to find out how to make a Horcrux, plus he only had four objects that would eventually become Horcruxes. Later he reappears (ten years after killing Smith) and he's less human, so we know that during the ten year period he found out how and has made some Horcruxes (so, has he been killing again, or was he using murders he'd already committed, if so, you can't do the Horcrux spell before the murder). We know he then kills Dorcus Meadows and the Potters, there's three more deaths we know of, and the Potters deaths at least weren't planned for a Horcrux. He later kills Frank Bryce and possibly Bertha Jorkins, only one of whom's death would be used to make a Horcrux. So, yeah, he doesn't seem to be at all hesitant about killing anyone but Lily (which raises old questions), so, even if he hasn't killed hundreds, he's killed plenty of people who weren't intended to make Horcruxes, so his soul has been torn a great deal already (that's at least 7 people who weren't killed with the intent of creating a Horcrux). I don't think killing completely dislodges a piece of your soul so much as it creates a torn section which is then dislodged from the main soul by the Horcrux spell. I don't think Voldemort's objective was to only kill 6 times but rather to only make six Horcruxes, which is definitely different as the latter results in his soul being pinned to this side of the veil in seven different locations.

I've been thinking about what Thom said about not waiting to fill his "quota" of six Horcruxes and T Vrana's comments above, and I'm betting Voldemort waits to make a Horcrux until he has the object the soul will be hidden in. We know he's obsessed with taking trophies that are linked to the Founders and his birthright so, if he had to wait 10 years to find something that was a Founders' object, I think he would have. So, not immediately trying to hit his quota within a short period of time, but rather allowing his time-limit to expand over a few decades makes sense. Also, that could mean, he intended Harry to be his sixth Horcrux because he'd only just found his sixth object (Gryffindor' sword maybe?).

As for Nagini being made a Horcrux with Frank's death, I think what Dumbledore actually says is that Voldemort got the idea to make her a Horcrux after killing a Muggle man, so his death wasn't necessarily the death he used to create the Nagini-Horcrux, which would add one more death to the list of those Voldemort committed without a Horcrux in mind.

T Vrana - Oct 30, 2006 3:48 pm (#2740 of 2969)

Hi, SE- Wasn't tying to imply that LV only murders when he makes a Horcrux, just that he hasn't killed the hundreds some posters allude to. If the soul is torn, but 'repairs' over time if a Horcrux is not made, he would still be very scarred. So, while he has committed other than Horcrux murders, they are limited to a reason:

• The Riddles- revenge
• Hepzibah- hide his theft
• Dorcas- hmm, why?
• James Potter- Heir of Gryffindor? Just in the way? Little favor to Snape?
• Lily- wouldn't get out of the way
• Bryce- Horcrux Nagini?
• Bertha- was he in any shape? I assumed Wormtail did this one for him (?)

Anyway this number if fairly small given the many who died (lake full of Inferi)and the terror he spread.

I can't help but think that Jo chose to make Nagini a Horcrux to show it could be done with a living thing.

Sorry, Harry.

Thom Matheson - Oct 30, 2006 4:02 pm (#2741 of 2969)

I mentioned the thought of lots of deaths because of the vast number of Inferi. I cannot see him inviting his DE's to kill and deposit the bodies in the cave lake for him. As secretive as Voldemort is, I doubt that his Death Eaters even knew about the cave or his Horcruxes, minus RAB of course. My concern here has to do with the Harry is a Horcrux group. If Voldemort had his 6, he wouldn't have a need for any more. Even if he intended for Harry to become a Horcrux, without a wand, he couldn't have made one out of him. Or more correctly, he didn't have a body with an arm to hold a wand.

As far as waiting for the right Horcrux vessel to come along, when you are the most hunted wizard in the world, would you wait 20 or so years to find just the right vessel, or would you want to be immortal as soon as you could just in case your Death Eaters turned on you or the Aurors caught up to you. I am not suggesting his choices were indiscriminate, but I cannot see him waiting 20 years to put his final plan into action either.

T Vrana - Oct 30, 2006 4:40 pm (#2742 of 2969)

He was immortal the moment he made the first Horcrux and he was sure no one knew. He was going for 7 total pieces because he thought it would be more magically powerful. He was a trophy collector and would not have made just any Horcrux.

If the incantation comes before the murder, then the magic would already have been in place before LV lost his arm and wand.

Thom Matheson - Oct 30, 2006 4:47 pm (#2743 of 2969)

TV are you suggesting that the Horcrux incantation occurs before the soul is split and the murder occurs? If so that doesn't work for me at all.

Regarding Harry being a Horcrux, why would Voldemort make Harry a Horcrux, and then kill him? Wouldn't he be killing a part of himself?

T Vrana - Oct 30, 2006 5:11 pm (#2744 of 2969)

TV are you suggesting that the Horcrux incantation occurs before the soul is split and the murder occurs? If so that doesn't work for me at all.

Because..... ... ?

Regarding Harry being a Horcrux, why would Voldemort make Harry a Horcrux, and then kill him? Wouldn't he be killing a part of himself?

Well, I'm not really suggesting, because this may be crossing the line, but, he would first kill Harry, AK, but also make him the Horcrux. Yuck, but as Harry was supposed to be his downfall, could he have planned to make Harry's corpse a Horcrux. He used his dead dad's bones to regenerate...Not really into this theory...

Choices - Oct 30, 2006 5:53 pm (#2745 of 2969)

I think when Tom Riddle asked Slughorn about making a Horcrux he was just working his way up to asking about multiple Horcruxes. I think he had already made one (the diary) and was really wanting to know about making more than one. If you re-read that part (the memory) Tom asks about one Horcrux just to start off the conversation, then he gets to what he really wants to know - can you make more than one Horcrux?

As to what order the parts of making a Horcrux come in, Slughorn starts out by telling Tom that first you have to murder, that splits the soul and then you enclose it in an object to make a Horcrux.

"But how do you do it?"

"By an act of evil---the supreme act of evil. By committing murder. Killing rips the soul apart. The wizard intent upon creating a Horcrux would use the damage to his advantage. He would encase the torn portion---"

"Encase, but how---?"

"There is a spell, do not ask me, I don't know!" said Slughorn.

I go by the order in which Slughorn tells Tom..... murder, soul tears, spell, encase torn portion of soul in object. He does not tell Tom that you say the spell before the murder. He tells Tom that the spell is said to encase the torn soul in the object, after the murder and after the soul is torn.

Thom Matheson - Oct 30, 2006 6:09 pm (#2746 of 2969)

Page 506 Am. Edition: " Voldemort was still at least one Horcrux short of his goal of six when he entered your parents house with the intention of killing you.

He seems to have reserved the process of making Horcruxes for particularly significant deaths. You would certainly have been that. He believed that in killing you, he was destroying the danger the prophecy had outlined. I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your death."

Harry was to be the murder, not the Horcrux itself.

Choices is correct, that the murder happens, followed by the tearing of the soul, followed by the incantation and the encasement of the Horcrux. "He chose Nagini after Frank Bryce's death because he had to. Time was running out for him to get the 6th Horcrux in place."

If Dumbledore is correct here, there would be no, "do the murder, wait a few years, and then place the Horcrux." I get this to mean that it needs to be a fresh kill in order to preserve the torn soul bit for usage.

T Vrana - Oct 30, 2006 6:29 pm (#2747 of 2969)

Choices- Slughorn wasn't giving step by step instructions, just answering Tom's questions as they were asked, so the order can't be judged by this.

THOM-

Yes, Harry was to be the victim, we don't know what the object was to be. It is not impossible (though, again, I don't like this idea) that he was also going to be the Horcrux. Unlikely, but...

Choices may be correct, we do not know. See above.

I agree that the murder and the Horcrux making must take place together, murderer must take advantage of the tear when it occurs.

HungarianHorntail11 - Oct 30, 2006 7:45 pm (#2748 of 2969)

T Vrana, I agree. I've posed this question before, but why else would JKR be so elusive/vague regarding the Horcrux procedure? If Harry is hunting down Horcruxes, the procedure should not be an issue.

Thom, check Post #2239. (By the way, HAH=Harry, Accidental Horcrux)

And just one more bit from a previous post (#486, in case you are curious):

One last comment regarding the fact that I think Harry is inadvertent Horcrux. I emailed Round Pink Spider with my thoughts and in her reply, I thought she brought up a great quote supporting this from SS:

Yes, we think that Harry is an involuntary Horcrux as well. Do you remember when Dumbledore told Harry that, when Voldemort attacked him, he accidentally transferred some of his own powers to Harry? Do you remember what Harry said?

‘Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?’ Harry said, thunderstruck.

‘It certainly seems so.’

Hint, hint! I think Harry is the ‘something belonging to Godric Gryffindor.’ It probably wasn’t what Voldemort intended, but I think that’s just how it worked out.

Remember, Harry is sorted into Gryffindor.

S.E. Jones - Oct 30, 2006 7:55 pm (#2749 of 2969)

T Vrana --So, while he has committed other than Horcrux murders, they are limited to a reason--

I completely agree with this. In fact, I think that's why he gave Lily the chance to step aside, he didn't have a reason to kill her. Of course, when I first suggested this as to why she may have been allowed the choice, most people just scoffed and said Voldemort wouldn't care about a reason..... Oh well, it still works for me.

And I definitely think he would've been willing to wait as long as he needed to make a Horcrux, we're told as much by Dumbledore, as Thom pointed out in the passage he cited.

Choices --I think when Tom Riddle asked Slughorn about making a Horcrux he was just working his way up to asking about multiple Horcruxes. I think he had already made one (the diary) and was really wanting to know about making more than one.--

That's what I originally thought, but where would he have learned out to make the diary a Horcrux? I believe Hermione pointed out that the term only surfaced in one place in the Hogwarts library and that citation was only to say that it is too horrible to mention. Slughorn told him there was an incantation (so we know he would've had to be taught how, he couldn't have just done it) but doesn't tell him what it is. I doubt any teacher at Hogwarts would've been willing to tell him. We're also told by Dumbledore, I believe, that Voldemort traveled far and wide seeking out dark wizards to learn from (so we know there weren't any immediately available that could've taught him during the summers as he had to go looking) after killing Hepzibah Smith. There's no chance for him to have learned the spell until after his disappearance when he kills Smith. Therefore, he couldn't have already made the diary into a Horcrux by the time we see him asking Horace about them.

HungarianHorntail11, that quote from CoS is very interesting. It could still mean that Voldemort was planning on using a different object (like the sword) but ended up with Harry instead. I'm still not sure I believe that Harry is an actual Horcrux. I guess I could buy "Horcrux-like" to some point, though.

Mrs Brisbee - Oct 30, 2006 8:21 pm (#2750 of 2969)

I don't think Tom Riddle had made the Diary Horcrux yet either at the time he was talking to Slughorn. Rowling seems to be showing "red eye" as an indication of how many Horcruxes Tom Riddle had. Diary Tom had eyes that glinted red. Tom that talked to Slughorn didn't have eyes that glinted red. By the time Tom Riddle gets to Hepzibah Smith, his eyes flash scarlet. So by then he probably had several Horcruxes (the diary and the ring).

Time line is a little tricky, but the diary encompassed the sixteen year old Tom Riddle, and would have run from January 1st to December 31st, including the latter half of his 5th year and the first half of his 6th year. We know Tom approached Slughorn after the murders, so it had to be at least the beginning of sixth year, but could have been later. The diary Horcrux must have been made near or after Tom's 17th birthday.

While intuitively I feel that Horcruxes should be made at the time of the murder, that's not the evidence that Rowling gives us. Dumbledore says that he doesn't think Tom Riddle murdered anyone between his father and grandparents and Hepzibah Smith. But it seems he was making Horcruxes some time after the murders. So it appears Horcruxes can be made some time after the soul is split.

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Thom Matheson - Oct 30, 2006 9:11 pm (#2751 of 2969)

Without the incantation there is no transfer. Unless Voldemort was singing "A little bit of soul" when he AK’d Harry there could be no transfer, accidental or otherwise. Voldemort went to the Potter's to kill Harry. I'm sure that, as Dumbledore stated, he would have used Harry's murder to create a Horcrux. For all we know he could have brought it with him. Dumbledore talked about the inherent danger of depositing a Horcrux soul into another living being. The big problem is that if the vessel dies so would the Horcrux soul. Harry could take off on his Firebolt and fall off without Voldemort having any knowledge of the accident. He would have no control of the movement or potential danger the individual would place themselves in order to keep the Horcrux safe.

The last point to remember is when Voldemort jumped into Harry's body at the Ministry and had to flee it as he could not take being inside of Harry. (I know I am paraphrasing here). My point is that if my soul is inside Harry's body I don't reckon I would feel the need to exit so quickly. Almost as if he found a revulsion be inside Harry.

T Vrana - Oct 30, 2006 9:13 pm (#2752 of 2969)

Tom may have been feigning ignorance when he approached Slughorn. That is, he knew how to make one, but pretended not to know, more interested in knowing about multiple Horcruxes. The bit of soul in the diary was 16 year old Tom? I think he must have been 16 when he created it. I think it must have been from the Riddle murders. Muggle diary, Muggle dad.

M Brisbee- Grandparents at 16, H Smith while working for Borgin and Burkes, post graduation 17, 18, 19, why do we assume he made more Horcruxes between?

I admit I'm a bit sketchy on timelines here...

THOM- You are assuming the incantation has to take place while AK’ing the victim? I am proposing that the Horcrux vessel is prepared to receive the soul bit before the murder, so that when the murder and the tear take place, the murderer takes advantage of the tear and the torn bit is drawn to the Horcrux vessel.

I was not assuming Harry would survive as a living Horcrux if he was the planned Horcrux (yuck).

If he is a living Horcrux, I think it was an accident.

If he is a living, accidental, Horcrux, the soul bit seems to be lodged in his scar, close to, but not joined with, Harry's soul. LV tried possession which brought him too close to Harry's loving soul.

wingardio leviosa - Oct 30, 2006 11:46 pm (#2753 of 2969)

I posted this originally on the " + Why did Dumbledore have James's cloak? " thread (#857) - think it has to do much with this thread too, so I copy it down.

There are several possibilities for someone going from GH to Hogwarts before LV's attack. It depends on what else was going on then - and mostly we have no idea. The going 'incognito' means that the traveller didn't want to reveal his/her association with either the potters or DD or both, and that other ways of travel undetected were (generally or particularly for him/her) unavailable - like for a Muggle, a squib, an underage/less able wizard. Not all wizards can Apparate, neither one can Apparate everywhere. In Hogwarts surely not and in GH I'd bet neither. Going to GH's gate and then from Hogsmeade to Hogwarts could have been deemed too much exposure. We know that Floo network is unsafe and owls too. Further remember the paranoia in 12GH - people going about only with escort, strict limits on owls, ...

A short list of people who might not be willing to be seen - for any reason - includes

- Snape, for sure
- Aberforth (thanks Soul Search), who might want to keep his Order membership secret (at least, not to chase away his customers)
- Mundungus
- one of the Longbottoms (also in high alert, I suppose)
- Hagrid (unlikely because the cloak may not fit) as a 'less-able' wizard
- Mrs Figg
- Slughorn (paranoid as he is)
- Filch
- Mme Pince
- ...

Well, the 'who' is maybe important, but the 'what for' may be even more... and even more cloudy ... the only thing I come up with is the transport of Gryffindor’s sword for safekeeping. That may be 'crucial' because in some way -

see the editorial [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] on Mugglenet -

knowing about it may tip Harry on where/how to find another Horcrux.

Any more ideas?

S.E. Jones - Oct 30, 2006 11:47 pm (#2754 of 2969)

T Vrana --Tom may have been feigning ignorance when he approached Slughorn. That is, he knew how to make one, but pretended not to know, more interested in knowing about multiple Horcruxes. The bit of soul in the diary was 16 year old Tom? I think he must have been 16 when he created it. I think it must have been from the Riddle murders. Muggle diary, Muggle dad.--

Again, where would he have learned the incantation to make a Horcrux by age 16? They don't teach it at Hogwarts and Dumbledore makes sure everyone is tight-lipped about it and that there is no mention of it in any book (except one which mentions just to say it won't mention it). Later Voldemort has to go looking for dark wizards to train him in the dark arts, so there weren't many sitting around Diagon Alley teaching him during the summer breaks... Where would he have learned it?

No, I'm thinking he didn't make any Horcruxes until well after Smith's murder.

Mrs. Brisbee, I never saw the "red eye" as being an indication of his Horcruxes. I saw it as an indication of his true "Mr. Hyde" self coming out from behind his "Dr. Jekyll" mask.

TheSaint - Oct 31, 2006 1:04 am (#2755 of 2969)

Merriam-Webster

Main Entry: 3tear Pronunciation: 'ter Function: verb Inflected Form(s): tore /'tor/; torn /'torn/; tear∑ing Etymology: Middle English teren, from Old English teran; akin to Old High German zeran to destroy, Greek derein to skin, Sanskrit drnAti he bursts, tears transitive verb 1 a : to separate parts of or pull apart by force : REND b : to wound by or as if by tearing : LACERATE 2 : to divide or disrupt by the pull of contrary forces 3 a : to remove by force : WRENCH -- often used with off b : to remove as if by wrenching 4 : to make or effect by or as if by tearing intransitive verb 1 : to separate on being pulled : REND 2 a : to move or act with violence, haste, or force b : to smash or penetrate something with violent force - tear∑able /'ter-&-b&l/ adjective - tear∑er noun - tear at : to cause anguish to : DISTRESS - tear into : to attack without restraint or caution - tear it : to cause frustration, defeat, or an end to plans or hopes - tear one's hair : to pull one's hair as an expression of grief, rage, frustration, desperation, or anxiety; also : to feel or display such an emotion synonyms TEAR, RIP, REND, SPLIT, CLEAVE, RIVE mean to separate forcibly. TEAR implies pulling apart by force and leaving jagged edges . RIP implies a pulling apart in one rapid uninterrupted motion often along a line or joint . REND implies very violent or ruthless severing or sundering . SPLIT implies a cutting or breaking apart in a continuous, straight, and usually lengthwise direction or in the direction of grain or layers . CLEAVE implies very forceful splitting or cutting with a blow . RIVE occurs most often in figurative use .

Separation as opposed to disfiguring seems to be the case.

HungarianHorntail11 - Oct 31, 2006 5:04 am (#2756 of 2969)

The big problem is that if the vessel dies so would the Horcrux soul. Harry could take off on his Firebolt and fall off without Voldemort having any knowledge of the accident. Thom M.

It seems as though you are thinking Big V. did so purposefully. My viewpoint is that it was an accidental occurrence. A strong charm repelling an AK with a Horcrux incantation in place = spectacular result (i.e., Harry walking around with a bit of Big V. in him.)

That's how I see it, too, TheSaint.

T Vrana - Oct 31, 2006 6:18 am (#2757 of 2969)

SE- Tom clearly knew about Horcruxes, though they were forbidden. Where did he hear about them? Perhaps the Chamber of Secrets holds more than a basilisk. I still think Tom was digging for multiple Horcrux info.

By your theory, then, the murder can be committed years before the Horcrux is made?

haymoni - Oct 31, 2006 6:42 am (#2758 of 2969)

If Voldy made Nagini a Horcrux, does Wormtail know about it?

Gerald Costales - Oct 31, 2006 7:51 am (#2759 of 2969)

First some clerical errors and corrections ---

(re: my post #2728)

‘CF - Not every murder or death that Voldemort committed is used to create a Horcrux. i.e. Lily, James, Cedric, and probably Bertha.’

(re: post # 2729)

We can't count Cedric as Wormtail did the killing.’ Thom Matheson

(re: post # 2470) by T Vrana

Bryce- Horcrux Nagini?

Bertha- was he in any shape? I assumed Wormtail did this one for him (?)

Now, an excerpt from Goblet of Fire ---

‘... and then something much larger began to blossom from Voldemort’s wand tip, a great grayish something, that looked as though it were made of the solidest, densest smoke ... It was a head ... now a chest and arms ... the torso of Cedric Diggory.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

‘He was a was a real wizard, then?’ the old man said his eyes on Voldemort. ‘Killed me, that one did ... You fight him boy ...’

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

The shadow of Bertha Jorkins surveyed the battle before her with wide eyes. ‘Don’t let go, now!’ she cried.‘

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

And now another head was emerging from the tip of Voldemort’s wand. The smoky shadow of a young woman with long hair fell to the ground/

‘Your father’s coming ... ’ she said quietly. ‘Hold on for your father ... ’

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

And he came ... first his head, then his body ... tall and untidy-haired like Harry, the smoky, shadowy form of James Potter blossomed form the end of Voldemort’s wand.’ (GoF, page 665, 666, & 667, American edition)

Footnote: Some editions have James and then Lily emerge from the Yew Wand. The correct order is Lily (who died protecting Harry) and then James (who died protecting Lily and Harry).

So, it appears the baby form of Voldemort must have been able to hold the Yew Wand.

(I could also picture Voldemort riding the Wand like a Broomstick, not good form, but the Wand would be in contact with Voldemort.)

If you aren’t convinced by the Graveyard Scene that Voldemort killed Bertha. Here is Voldemort’s own word from earlier in the Book ---

‘ ... and when I had extracted all useful information from her, her mind and body were both damaged beyond repair. She had now served her purpose. I disposed of her.’ (GoF, page 655, American edition)

Again, it appears to me that the baby form of Voldemort killed both Bertha and Frank.

So, I also believe that Frank was the victim for the Nagini Horcrux. Since, Harry’s death didn’t occur another Horcrux, an Emergency or Replacement Horcrux, Nagini was created.

We are dealing with Dark Magic and it may be possible to create an Inferi Horcrux Harry, but I doubt it.

This is my summary of Horcruxes or some possible Horcruxes ---

Horcrux or Possible Horcrux ----- First mentioned

1. Tom Riddle’s Diary ----- Chamber of Secrets (Book 2)
2. Nagini ----- Goblet of Fire (Book 4)
3. Slytherin’s Locket ----- Possibly - Order of the Phoenix (Book 5)
4. Gaunt/Slytherin’s Ring ----- Half-Blood Prince (Book 6)
5. Hufflepuff’s Cup ----- Half-Blood Prince (Book 6)
6. unknown ----- something of Gryffindor or Ravenclaw (Book 6)

I think that Tom created the Diary Horcrux after his 16th Birthday. And as some have pointed out. Tom sought out Dark Wizards to learn how to create a Horcrux... My guess it that Dark Wizard was Grindlewald. (As far as I know the only Dark Wizard besides Voldemort that the Book mentions.)

I read the Mugglenet editorial and I found the idea of Gryffindor’s Sword being the key to unlock the Horcruxes very plausible.

PS Not really adding anything really new. Just tiding up and organizing some of my thoughts on Horcruxes. ;-) GC

Phelim Mcintyre - Oct 31, 2006 7:58 am (#2760 of 2969)

Gerald - Wormtail killed Cedric using Voldemort’s wand, as GoF has Voldemort telling Wormtail to kill the spare.

Thom Matheson - Oct 31, 2006 8:11 am (#2761 of 2969)

HH11, in your example, if I thought an incantation for, say, Lumos at 10 am and then at 11 am I accidentally sent another charm that rebounded back at me my wand or something would happen at that time. I know that this is a very very feeble attempt at an analogy but my point is that with an incantation you say or think it at the time you point the wand. I don't see any wizard prethinking a spell and having it come true.

HungarianHorntail11 - Oct 31, 2006 8:21 am (#2762 of 2969)

Thom, Not all spells must "work" (for lack of a better term) right away. Think of the Unbreakable Vow Snape made with Narcissa. That could go on indefinitely but the point is that the spell/vow is in place. With something as powerful as a Horcrux spell, do you doubt it could work in the same way? I do think it can. The Horcrux spell could actually require that the murder victim's name be used in the spell, clearly showing intent - which is a term coined by Slughorn. (Oh, my, I have been pondering this too much!)

Thom Matheson - Oct 31, 2006 8:46 am (#2763 of 2969)

To execute the Unbreakable though, you had to have the caster actually say the incantation and use the wand, touching the hands. That is what activated the spell in the first place. Bella touched Cissy and Snape's hands with the wand. Just thinking about a spell and then for no apparent reason having it be activated through another spell, as in AK and then Horcrux by accident just does not seem possible, nor is it the same thing.

I am certain that in the WW there are people constantly thinking of spells and how to perform them. That would be like having a loaded gun with the trigger cocked and when fired two bullets are discharged instead of one.

I am trying to assess your theory with a bit of logic behind it and cannot find a way for accidentally spells to occur. I just can't see that happening. If Voldemort were thinking of any kind of spell then Harry could have been turned into or something else happened by accident. This would also apply to any wizard or witch I would think. Horcruxes and AK's to me are on the same level as they are both Unforgivables and we also know that you must really mean to do it in order for it to work. Not an accidental discharge.

T Vrana - Oct 31, 2006 9:51 am (#2764 of 2969)

THOM-

I don't think, and correct me if I'm wrong HH 11, that we think the incantation was an accident, but that the incantation was planned, and worked, but not as intended. That is, Harry's murder was supposed to be the source of the torn soul, but he did not die. However, LV had already torn his soul twice that evening. Those tears were not used, but when LV's body was vaporized by the rebounding AK, it may have left the tears unprotected by a host (LV's body) and may have inadvertently reacted with the incantation that may have already been out there (if you believe that the incantation must be done first, which I think is quite possible).

So, the spell was not an accident, the result may have been because so many things happened that night, which had not happened before, and were unexpected.

Mattew Bates - Oct 31, 2006 9:56 am (#2765 of 2969)

Again, where would he have learned the incantation to make a Horcrux by age 16? They don't teach it at Hogwarts and Dumbledore makes sure everyone is tight-lipped about it and that there is no mention of it in any book (except one which mentions just to say it won't mention it). Later Voldemort has to go looking for dark wizards to train him in the dark arts, so there weren't many sitting around Diagon Alley teaching him during the summer breaks... Where would he have learned it?

S.E. Jones, when Harry was hiding the HBP's potion book in the room of requirement, there was mention of banned books. We all know how JKR loves to drop in important information in passing. I think that if they were just meant as decoration, they would just have been described as books. Calling them "banned" makes them significant. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the only banned subjects at Hogwarts Dark Arts related?

Thom Matheson - Oct 31, 2006 12:12 pm (#2766 of 2969)

T Vrana, and HH11

I can see that the horse has died here and I will quit beating it. But you cannot convince me that there is ANY spell that can be performed without the incantation being said, or, thought AT THE TIME the spell is being cast with that particular goal in mind. We will simply have to agree to disagree.

T Vrana - Oct 31, 2006 1:42 pm (#2767 of 2969)

THOM- I did not say anything about a spell being performed without an incantation. I'm not sure I can make it any clearer than I have already tried several times. One last try.....

I think LV said the incantation to create a Horcrux just before AK’ing young Harry. Much to his surprise and dismay, the AK rebounded and vaporized his body. Because he had already murdered twice that night, it is my belief, that it is possible, that when LV's body was vaporized, his soul was left without a host, and had two tears in it (from Lily's and James murder).

The piece of soul intended for the Horcrux, the one that was to be created by Harry's murder, does not separate from the 'main' soul, because Harry did not die. That is, no tear is create because Harry did not die. But, we still have an incantation that was said before the attempt, as well as a couple of torn bits of soul from the murders moments before. I am proposing that one of the free bits of soul may have found its way to Harry. I would think it would be the one created when LV murdered Lily.

EDIT- So, if were watched it happen. LV would take whatever object he planned to put the soul in and prepare it with the incantation.

"Preparus Horcruxus" (or whatever!)

The item is now prepared for the bit of soul he is about to tear with the murder of Harry. In theory, the item now acts as a magnet for the torn soul.

LV AK's Harry.

"Avada Kedavra"

But, it rebounds and his body is history, and the rebounding AK also destroys the Horcrux object he is holding. Bits of soul in the room, and an incantation that no longer has an object.

Just a thought...

S.E. Jones - Oct 31, 2006 3:30 pm (#2768 of 2969)

T Vrana --SE- Tom clearly knew about Horcruxes, though they were forbidden. Where did he hear about them? Perhaps the Chamber of Secrets holds more than a basilisk. I still think Tom was digging for multiple Horcrux info.--

I assumed he read the same mention as Hermione after scouring the entire Library: "I haven't found one single explanation of what Horcruxes do!" she told him. "Not a single one! I've been right through the restricted section and even in the most horrible books, where they tell you how to brew the most gruesome potions -- nothing! All I could find was this, in the introduction to Magick Most Evile - listen - 'Of the Horcrux, wickedest of magical inventions, we shall not speak nor give direction..... ' I mean, why mention it then?" (HBP18, p381, US).

Riddle: "I came across the term while reading and I didn't fully understand it." (HBP23, p496, US).

Sounds like he read the same passage to me.

Yes, there are forbidden books in the RoR, but I'm thinking these books are forbade but something that students would still have had access to (i.e. they may have brought them from home) and thus hidden by students. Even if the books were hidden by teachers, I don't think most professors teaching at Hogwarts would have the connections to find such a book. I'm thinking that something with the Horcrux spell in it would be 1) rare (so what few books there are with this information in it would be greatly prized by those who had them, and thus not likely to let a kid take it to school with them, or to risk it being found and destroyed by Dumbledore if owned by a professor) and thus hard to find and get to, 2) only possessed by someone like Grindelwald (I think I spelled that right) who was probably old and powerful (not someone who's going to have an average library and who is going to protect that library very seriously), and 3) very valuable (something old, rare and difficult to find would have great value and so would be hidden away, unless the wizard died and his property were auctioned off).

We have, from Hermione's description, the knowledge that Hogwarts does contain some very dark books with some very dark instructions (they're dark books, even if they're used for advanced DADA), but Horcruxes are only mentioned once in them and only to say that they won't mention them at all. I definitely think Tom would've had to go looking for the knowledge (and found it during his ten years of traveling). I don't think he would've found it at Hogwarts, even in forbidden books hidden in a secret room. Such instructions may not even be written down, considering how horrid the thought of making a Horcrux is to most of the wizarding world. Now, if such instructions were written, he may have come across such a rare and valuable book while working at Borgin and Burke's. As I say above, a wizard who wanted this rare and dark a book enough to have one would guard it well, unless the wizard had died and could no longer keep it. We know Borgin and Burke's saw a lot of other very rare and dangerous treasures, and Voldemort saw them too, through working at the store.

--By your theory, then, the murder can be committed years before the Horcrux is made?--

No, not at all. I think the murder must be committed first, but recently. I was saying that I don't think certain deaths could be used for Horcruxes because of how much time passes between when Riddle kills the person and when he seems to have actually made the Horcruxes, i.e. Tom, Sr's death could've have been used to make the diary into a Horcrux, as previously suggested, because too much time passes between when he killed his father and when he would've been able to learn about Horcruxes.

T Vrana - Oct 31, 2006 5:30 pm (#2769 of 2969)

The quote Hermione came across was completely useless. When Tom asks Slughorn, it seems clear he is hungry for the information. If he only knew it was really wicked, his need would have been much less. He really would have just wanted to know what it was.

Riddle: "I came across the term while reading and I didn't fully understand it."

Hmmmmm. A few short moments later, after Slughorn tells him what it is...No surprise, no pausing to take in what it was and how it might be used in his quest for immortality.

I don't understand how that works, though, sir" said Riddle.

He already knew what it was, but not how to do it, IMHO. He had already given it thought.

The Riddle from the diary was 16, wasn't he? I thought this indicated the soul bit was from the 16 year old Voldemort.

I do believe you are right that Tom did not use the murders of his father and grandparents, but I do think his first Horcrux was when he was 16.

Still think Slytherin may have left some reading material in the Chamber...

Thom Matheson - Oct 31, 2006 5:55 pm (#2770 of 2969)

T Vrana, I get what you are saying, so I will try to make myself clearer.

I do not believe that you prepare a "vessel" for the Horcrux, murder, then say another incantation to deposit the Horcrux.

I believe that you commit a murder, pick the Horcrux vessel, say an incantation point the wand and whammo, done.

If Harry has a soul bit in him it would be because Voldemort pointed his wand and said Blah Blah and boom, Horcrux. You guys are saying that it happened on accident, and I am saying that it would be impossible. Voldemort would have to want Harry to be a Horcrux in order for it to happen. Voldemort didn't do that. He choose to AK rather then use the Horcrux incantation.

S.E. Jones - Oct 31, 2006 6:49 pm (#2771 of 2969)

T Vrana --He already knew what it was, but not how to do it, IMHO. He had already given it thought.

The Riddle from the diary was 16, wasn't he? I thought this indicated the soul bit was from the 16 year old Voldemort.--

Well, I think it very likely that the forbidden books in the RoR might also mention Horcruxes, but, like the book Hermione found, I really don't think they contained the instructions on how to go about it, which means (in my mind) that Riddle couldn't have made one when he was 16. It certainly is possible, I just don't find it very likely.

I don't think the piece of soul would have to be 16. If Voldemort wrote the diary much in the same way the Marauders wrote the map, it would've contained a sort of recording of the way he thought at that age (remember how JKR said the insults on the map were a sort of recording of the map makers' personalities). If, say, ten years later he put a bit of soul in it to give it life, it would still be a recording of his 16-year-old self that it was created to mimic, not the 26-year-old piece of soul that was put inside it.

T Vrana - Oct 31, 2006 7:22 pm (#2772 of 2969)

THOM-

I do not believe that you prepare a "vessel" for the Horcrux, murder, then say another incantation to deposit the Horcrux.

Neither do I. Incantation. Murder. All done.

The initial incantation places a spell upon the object which will become the Horcrux. When the murder is committed the torn soul bit is drawn to and encased in the object which has the Horcrux incantation on it. In this way the murderer takes immediate advantage of the tear by already having the Horcrux creating incantation at work.

I can also see it working the other way around, murder then Horcrux, but as we do not know, both are possible.

If Harry has a soul bit in him it would be because Voldemort pointed his wand and said Blah Blah and boom, Horcrux. You guys are saying that it happened on accident, and I am saying that it would be impossible. Voldemort would have to want Harry to be a Horcrux in order for it to happen. Voldemort didn't do that. He choose to AK rather then use the Horcrux incantation.

We don't know any of this. Accidents do happen, like accidently vaporizing oneself with a rebounding AK. AK's do not normally leave a mark, this rebounding AK destroyed a house, an evil wizard's body and who knows what else.

If the incantation was said first, and the object meant for the Horcrux was destroyed, along with LV's body, it is possible, that amongst the turmoil in that house that night, with a rebounding AK and a soul that was recently torn twice, that a Horcrux was still created with the newly freed (since his body is gone) bits of soul, and the lingering, but unused incantation.

It may also be that the object intended for the Horcrux was destroyed, shattered, and flew, like shrapnel, around the room, a piece hitting Harry, thus his scar. That piece would still have the incantation on it, and the newly freed bits of soul that would normally have remained in LV's body, are attracted to it.

Until we know for sure how a Horcrux is created, we can't rule out incantation first.

SE- I have to think about that a bit more. What came out of the diary was different than the map..... gotta go work out. Getting late.

S.E. Jones - Oct 31, 2006 7:33 pm (#2773 of 2969)

Yes, it was different, but that was because the diary had a bit of soul deposited in it whereas the map didn't. I just meant that, prior to the soul being put in, it may have been the same as the map - i.e. a recording of his 16-year-old self - so that when the soul was put in, it was the recording that took life (16-year-old Tom) instead of the bit of soul itself (26-year-old Tom, or what-have-you). Therefore, the Tom we see come out of the diary is full of the soul (that's what's powering him being able to consciously control the situation) but is made to look and act like the recording the diary was made to hold.

Thom Matheson - Oct 31, 2006 7:40 pm (#2774 of 2969)

V, I understand that all of this is speculation and we are debating what you consider as a possibility, whereas I see only that logic, for me, precludes anything but a deliberate act. In this case Voldemort. At the time, he is about to kill a 1-year-old baby, and I shouldn't think that he was thinking of Horcruxes at the time.

T Vrana - Oct 31, 2006 8:41 pm (#2775 of 2969)

THOM-

Well, I base my theories entirely on logic, based on what we know and what we came presume from what we know. They may not be right, but they are not wrong in that they do not defy what we know.

We know DD said LV intended to create a Horcrux with Harry's murder. So, unless DD was wrong, LV was indeed thinking Horcrux when he murdered Harry.

We know Slughorn said the person intent on making a Horcrux takes advantage of the tear created by the murder to remove a bit of soul and encase it in an object.

We know an incantation is involved.

We know that it has to be done either before or after the murder:

Arguments for before:

1) The murderer would take advantage of the tear at the moment it happens. No time for healing or scarring.

2) The incantation would be in place to pull the soul bit from the body, and into the waiting Horcrux.

Arguments for after:

1) The soul bit is removed from the body much like a memory, which is something we are familiar with

2) Any others?

I do think the attempt to create a Horcrux that night was a deliberate act. But we can logically look at what happened to the AK, LV's soul and LV's body that night, and come to the conclusion that the Horcrux he intended to make failed, because Harry did not die.

But if we accept that:

1) the incantation is said first (and I see no reason this can't be the case)

2) that every murder tears the soul (so LV is standing there with his soul and two tears inside his body)

3) that when LV's body was evaporated his soul and the two tears were exposed with such force that the torn bits were separated from LV's 'main' soul (LV describes the violence of the moment somewhere, but it is late)

4) that an object may have been waiting for a bit of soul but was destroyed along with the house and a piece, still expecting a soul bit, hit Harry causing his scar, and attracting a bit of soul

Harry could be Horcrux like with a bit of LV's soul in his scar.

As no one has ever survived an AK before, or been vaporized from a love shielded rebounding AK that destroyed a body and a house, it is impossible to say that the scenario above could not logically work.

It may be flat out wrong, but, until we know more it is not illogical or impossible.

IMHO

shadzar - Nov 1, 2006 1:20 am (#2776 of 2969)

Thinking about the diary I had a gruesome thought, If the diary was in fact creating a new LV by taking life away from Ginny, then could other Horcruxes attempt the same? DD's hand could be the result of the ring trying to take him over.

What if the missing Horcruxes had fallen into the hands of subjectible people and was or had already done what the diary did and brought the soul out into a "physical" form?

What would happen to LV with each of his souls moving around independently?

AD&D spell Clone ó Each clone knows the others exist and will seek each other out to destroy them.

While this spell actually makes a clone of a person, even the clone will seek the "original" to destroy it in an effort to be the only one. If LV didn't know about the diary being destroyed until told about it, then odds are he wouldn't be able to tell that one of his Horcruxes had "escaped", but the Horcrux being would know the original exists and may want to challenge him for the right to be the Dark Lord. While this would mean the real LV would probably be stronger and destroy the Horcrux being so probably cancels out that idea.

But what would it mean if one or more of the remaining Horcruxes wasn't attempting to seek out the original LV, but still was carrying out his plans? What if there were 7 LV's walking around? A bit easier to destroy the Horcruxes if they all have mortal bodies to find, but if they were to team up,

Also like the diary produced a younger looking LV, if another was not so well known then he could spy for the original.

All of this is based solely on the idea that any Horcrux possess power and knowledge; but that may only be true of the diary because it was a record of memories. Than you must ask it those things he collected as trophies and carried gained memories from being in his possession. Like portraits, etc have a small imprint of the wizard then so to the Horcruxes could. This would also allow the Horcrux to perform "programmed" actions like the portraits repeating catch phrases. They could protect themselves, as maybe the ring tried to against DD; or if gaining a physical form like the diary LV could carry out simple ideas imprinted in them.

Kill LV enemies

Terrorize the countryside

Get revenge on any who may have tormented him

etc

S.E. Jones - Nov 1, 2006 2:41 am (#2777 of 2969)

Shadzar, here's a quote that might help some in the "clone" department:

From the FAQ section of JKR's site:

FAQ: In ‘Chamber of Secrets’, what would have happened if Ginny had died and Tom Riddle had escaped the diary?

A: I can’t answer that fully until all seven books are finished, but it would have strengthened the present-day Voldemort considerably.

Could the fact that she couldn't answer what would have happened if a piece of Voldemort's soul started walking around mean that there might have been a case, as Shadzar is suggesting, where a Horcrux has succeeded in taking the life of someone else and has gotten a form of its own?

Mattew Bates - Nov 1, 2006 10:53 am (#2778 of 2969)

I've always been of the opinion that all Horcruxes could possess someone and drain their soul to create a body, shadzar, but I've no canon proof beyond the diary. I thought they wouldn't bother unless they learned that Voldemort needed a new body, though. If these opinions of mine turn out to be in line with the story, then the reason no Horcruxes made Voldy a new body in the time of Vapormort is because they were all very well hidden away.

It was because the diary could think and act on its own that made Dumbledore sure it was a Horcrux (no books present to look up the quote, sorry), so I think all Horcruxes can act far more independently than a portrait. Their actions would go beyond "programmed" and straight on to "planning" and "plotting."

shadzar - Nov 1, 2006 12:40 pm (#2779 of 2969)

Well I say programmed only because the intent and amount of imprint put into the Horcrux. The diary had all his thoughts and wants up until it was made a Horcrux, and possibly more since it was learning from Ginny, and Harry. So the diary could carry out the plan to re-open the CoS. Could the others be chopped full of LV emotions and wants that they themselves are trying to act on their own then?

If DD hand was damaged as a result of the Horcrux itself wanting to see DD dead, then could RAB have been aided by the locket, if it in fact was a Horcrux; because the locket wanted to be more than a drain plug and seek its own existence?

If they have a will of their own, I doubt coming from LV, they would be inclined to rejoin him, rather than go their own way. Body or no they may care less about the original's fate so long as any other Horcrux can anchor the other soul parts to this plane and allow any version of "Vapormort" to regain a body

That means there could have been two LV walking around already all this time since his return. At least one physical, and one Vapor version. But was it the original then that was vaporized by the rebounding AK on Harry, or possibly a Horcrux simulacrum and that could explain why the physical appearance of LV is becoming less human since the simulacrum wasn't human to begin with, but only a part of soul from the original LV, that has been hiding all this time?

How long could LV have been working on cloning himself through Horcrux simulacrums to perfect a body he desires that he can later posses when his experiments yield the results of what he envisions his true self to look like in appearances?

Maybe I am turning in too morbid a line of thought, or just too frightening.

Kevin Corbett - Nov 1, 2006 3:02 pm (#2780 of 2969)

I'm not sure if anyone has proposed this yet, but I think it possible, and maybe even likely that LV is actively attempting to make another Horcrux, and has been doing so since he found out about the demise of the diary. I come to this conclusion because LV's desire is specifically to have seven Horcruxes, as seven is "the most powerfully magical number". Therefore, if he thinks he's only got six, he might want to make a new one to get him back up where he can (though this is only a theory) continue to channel the power of that particular number.

Mattew Bates - Nov 1, 2006 3:40 pm (#2781 of 2969)

"Body or no they may care less about the original's fate ..." Diary Tom seemed to care a great deal about Voldemort's fate. I'm not convinced each Horcrux has an individual will - they are still pieces of the same soul, however fractured. I think what willpower each has is a reflection of the ego stored in the central soul that became Vapormort. Without that central piece nearby to draw that willpower from, they simply lie dormant until there is another ego/soul interacting with them. When active, they seek to operate in the best interests of the central soul, inasmuch as they are aware of its needs. I think an embodied Diary Tom would have sought out Vapormort so the central soul would have a body again.

Still, I think I'm beginning to understand what you mean by intent, shadzar. Even if all of the Horcruxes may have the power to create a new body, perhaps only the diary had the inclination to do so because it was the only one created to interact with others. The others were created only to be hidden, and may be instantly hostile once disturbed - not because they hate the person interacting with them, but because they were never meant to be interacted with. Because of this, they can never become aware of further needs of the central soul, so they would never make a body.

I'm not even sure that Voldy knows that the diary could have created a new body - if he did, he likely would have had Quirrell contact Malfoy for the purpose of passing the diary to an isolated victim for the sole purpose of creating a body to inhabit. Because the diary was such an unprecedented use of a Horcrux, it exhibited powers that had never been documented in the materials from which Voldy learned how to make Horcruxes.

As far as imprint, I think the grafting of a soul-bit onto an object leaves a far greater imprint than the storing of memories. The increased power the diary may have beyond other Horcruxes as a result of having both is minimal. Without the soul graft, the diary would have simply been a creative substitute for a pensieve, with no more true awareness than a portrait.

S.E. Jones - Nov 1, 2006 5:14 pm (#2782 of 2969)

The more I think about it, the more I don't think the other Horcruxes would act like the diary. The diary had a recording of his personality and memories in it already before being made a Horcrux, which would explain its ability to think for itself. However, if all Horcruxes could do this, they could potentially be useless to the wizard who created them. For instance, if they all decided they didn't want to be there, they could get themselves destroyed, or, if they decided they all wanted bodies and all got AK'd afterward, they, again, wouldn't be of any use to their originator. The Horcrux's whole point is to keep a fraction of the wizard's soul encased somewhere safe. If they were capable of acting on their own, this whole point would be undone.

shadzar - Nov 2, 2006 3:08 am (#2783 of 2969)

And that is just what the diary did. The only question, seeing we don't know what the unaccounted for Horcruxes is, is could any of the other Horcruxes function in the way the diary did?

diary tried to gain its own self to continue S. Slytherin's work

ring possibly tried to kill DD

locket possibly tried to/or succeeded in killing RAB. "I know I will be dead soon"

Huff cup, what if someone drank from it, and what other powers did it have? Could the soul seep into whatever was drank from it like the diary and affect the drinker?

Nagini?, possibly under an Imperious curse constantly to prevent the Horcrux from moving on its own.

??,

Sorting Hat is in a place to influence other people, has memories of the founders so could easily act on its own; but it is very closely guarded so could LV have turned it into one on his return visit to Hogwarts when meeting DD. either way the hat couldn't act too much while in the school if he did, and would be well guarded so less work for LV.

Otherwise what else could function like the diary, containing memories of LV or someone else even, as the potential that another diary-like Horcrux does in fact exist thanks to JKR saying she couldn't comment on what would happen if Diary Tom survived.

Diary Tom learned about LV downfall from Ginny, what if he hadn't or another one does exist and didn't know of the downfall of LV. How would they act and interact with the new world years after the memories were implanted to it and the changes to the wizarding world? Now that LV is back it might not mean much since the simulacrum would think LV alive anyway so would it carry out original plans without worry or knowledge about the prophecy. Possibly plans greatly different than the true LV (maybe even less menacing).

haymoni - Nov 2, 2006 6:12 am (#2784 of 2969)

Kevin - that is part of a great debate. Did Voldy want his soul in 7 parts all the time or was it a 1-shot deal? If he keeps on making Horcruxes, then his soul really isn't in 7 parts any more. However, one can logically conclude, once you've made 7, what's a few more??? We just don't know what was more important to him.

SE Jones - I always thought the diary was a 2-step process. I think Tom Riddle opened the Chamber, set the basilisk on the school to kill Mudbloods, was afraid of the school closing and put his personality into the diary to help someone along later on. I think this book was so important to him that he later chose it to hold a Horcrux.

Others have said that he made it a Horcrux at 16 and that was it.

Kevin Corbett - Nov 2, 2006 9:57 am (#2785 of 2969)

Ah, but I think, once you destroy the Horcrux, you destroy that bit of soul as well. So he's only got 6 bits (or so he thinks---he's really only got 5), and needs to get back to seven. It's the present reality of the number of pieces that counts, and if certain pieces are destroyed, they don't count any longer.

haymoni - Nov 2, 2006 10:00 am (#2786 of 2969)

That's how I see it, Kevin, but we don't know how Voldy sees it.

He had 7 soul bits - his original soul was divided into 7 parts - if he makes another one now, I don't know if he will still think it meets "the most magical" criteria.

If I were Voldy, I'd keep making 'em until I was slithering on the ground - well, I mean except for all that murdering I'd have to do.

Jo has to end the story somewhere so I'm guessing he won't replace any.

Choices - Nov 2, 2006 10:11 am (#2787 of 2969)

I think Voldemort made 6 Horcruxes and the 7th soul piece resides in him. To make more would be to lose the magical number 7 and I don't think he would do that. To be immortal he actually only needs one Horcrux, so I think with 6 Horcruxes he has cushion enough to be comfortable about his immortality.

Thom Matheson - Nov 2, 2006 11:06 am (#2788 of 2969)

He may have 6 pieces out there, or less if destroyed, but HIS soul, the one in his body, would be divided beyond 7 total. To add 2 more to replace the destroyed Horcruxes, would make HIS soul now 9 parts.

S.E. Jones - Nov 2, 2006 3:11 pm (#2789 of 2969)

SE Jones --The more I think about it, the more I don't think the other Horcruxes would act like the diary. The diary had a recording of his personality and memories in it already before being made a Horcrux, which would explain its ability to think for itself.--

haymoni --SE Jones - I always thought the diary was a 2-step process. I think Tom Riddle opened the Chamber, set the basilisk on the school to kill Mudbloods, was afraid of the school closing and put his personality into the diary to help someone along later on. I think this book was so important to him that he later chose it to hold a Horcrux.--

Precisely, haymoni. He made the diary to record his personality and memories so it could be used to re-open the Chamber, thus it could think for itself. What I was saying is that I don't think it thought for itself purely because it was a Horcrux because, if all Horcruxes did, they could get themselves destroyed as the diary did and thus would be useless to the wizard who created them. In short, they would undo their entire purpose. Therefore, I doubt we'll see another Horcrux try to take someone over again.

About making more Horcruxes, I don't think it was a matter of Voldemort wanting his soul divided into 7 parts (it's already too late for that as he's killed at least half a dozen people, that we know of, who weren't used to make Horcruxes - see this post), but was a matter of anchoring his soul to this side of the veil in seven different places. With the latter, he could still have made a replacement Horcrux to replace the diary so that he would still have seven anchors (six Horcruxes and his body).

T Vrana - Nov 2, 2006 3:26 pm (#2790 of 2969)

I'm not sure every murder divides the soul. Slughorn says that murder tears the soul. It may be that if you do not take advantage of the tear, the soul heals. That is, there may not be several bits of soul in LV from his extra, non-Horcrux murders, but instead scars where the tears 'healed'. So, he may only have his scarred soul, and the remaining 4 Horcrux pieces.

Thom Matheson - Nov 2, 2006 3:28 pm (#2791 of 2969)

I agree, the murders tear the soul, and it is a second conscience decision to use that torn soul bit to create a Horcrux.

T Vrana - Nov 2, 2006 3:51 pm (#2792 of 2969)

Agreed, but the decision to use the tear need not be made second, and the magic needed to create the Horcrux, may need to be done first to take advantage of the tear the moment it happens, or there may be limited time to act before the soul begins to heal.

Hmmmm...if a wizard does remove the torn bit, like a memory, as some have speculated, how does he know where the torn bit is? Where does the soul reside? I think I like the idea of the Horcrux pulling the torn piece to itself, as I wouldn't know where to begin to look for the tear.

I am tempted to say somewhere near the heart...but it isn't like a memory that clearly resides in your head.

Mattew Bates - Nov 2, 2006 4:49 pm (#2793 of 2969)

The diary had a recording of his personality and memories in it already before being made a Horcrux, which would explain its ability to think for itself.

I'm afraid I don't see it in exactly that way, S.E. Jones. I agree that the diary already had memories implanted, but that is only a part of Voldy’s mind. I think the personality only came in with the soul graft; the bit of person, if you will; therefore all other Horcruxes have personality, if not memory. Each Horcrux contains some sense of personality, willpower, some of what we would say is derived from the soul. I still don't see them being able to make decisions against the central soul, though, because they are not individuals; rather they are part of one individual, and would decide to act in any given situation only as Voldy would decide to act. They are one soul, one will to exist, one person, divided in parts. They would only be able to act independently if Voldemort was the sort of man who could act against his own interests, if he was the sort of person who would literally cut off his nose to spite his face ... although that isn't really the best analogy, because he is rather noseless.

What I was saying is that I don't think it thought for itself purely because it was a Horcrux because, if all Horcruxes did, they could get themselves destroyed as the diary did and thus would be useless to the wizard who created them.

The diary thinking for itself is precisely why Dumbledore thought it was a Horcrux, though. As I was saying to shadzar earlier, I think they will act in part based on the personality within them, but also based on what the Horcrux was created to do. The other Horcruxes aren't going to create bodies because they weren't created to interact with people long enough to drain life force from them; only the diary was created in such a manner. The others were created to be hidden objects, and will act in such a manner as to remain hidden. The diary's primary direction at creation was to Finish Salazar Slytherin's Noble Work, but the others were instructed to Keep Me Secret, Keep Me Safe, Keep Me Forever Alive.

S.E. Jones - Nov 2, 2006 5:21 pm (#2794 of 2969)

Maybe I should be more exact in my wording (sorry, my mind's not at its best tonight). I was trying to say it was able to think for itself, in my opinion, because of the manner of recording it was (it was always supposed to be able to lead someone to re-opening the Chamber, in my opinion), but its ability to overcome its owner (i.e. possess Ginny) to accomplish its goals and to willfully try to accomplish a goal outside of what it was intended for (i.e. draining Ginny's soul so that it could have a form of its own) came from the soul Voldemort put in it.

Matt --I agree that the diary already had memories implanted, but that is only a part of Voldy’s mind. I think the personality only came in with the soul graft; the bit of person, if you will; therefore all other Horcruxes have personality, if not memory.--

You could be right about the personality coming from the soul. My thought process was based on how the Marauders Map works. When it insulted Snape, it responded in the way the map-makers would have, which makes me think it had some form of their personalities implanted in it. Also, JKR made a comment about Fred and George being helped along by the map when figuring it out, which makes me think the map can, to a limited extent, interact in some way outside simply being a map, which could suggest the ability to think for itself, but to a small extent only.

What DD says about the diary is: "Well, although I did not see the Riddle who came out of the diary, what you described to me was a phenomenon I had never witnessed. A mere memory starting to act and think for itself? A mere memory, sapping the life out the girl into whose hands it had fallen? No, something much more sinister had lived inside that book... a fragment of soul, I was almost sure of it." (HBP23, p500, US)

Just my opinion, though. As I said, you could very well be right about the personality being linked to the soul.

Soul Search - Nov 2, 2006 6:09 pm (#2795 of 2969)

It has been noted previously on this topic that Voldemort's appearance seemed to change as he made more Horcruxes. It starts with a "red glint" in his eyes. We then see a different looking Voldemort when he visits Dumbledore. His final form is more snake-like than human. These changes have been used to try and determine when he made various Horcruxes.

It would seem that removing a bit of soul has an affect on physical appearance, with ripping the soul enough to make six Horcruxes causing a dramatic change. This is different than tearing the soul with the evil of a murder.

How might Voldemort's appearance change if he made a few more Horcruxes. There might be a limit on how much soul can be removed.

T Vrana - Nov 2, 2006 6:47 pm (#2796 of 2969)

I agree Soul Search.

wingardio leviosa - Nov 3, 2006 5:52 am (#2797 of 2969)

S.E, "With the latter, he could still have made a replacement Horcrux to replace the diary so that he would still have seven anchors (six Horcruxes and his body). ":

I concur that one must count the pieces of soul anchored to this side of the Veil.

It seems that (LV is sure that) when one reaches seven 'anchors' - something happens to strengthen him (perhaps no anchor can be destroyed any more?). At least that's what I read between DD's words in HBP.

To my accounting, LV never actually reached 7 anchors. (EDIT: Note: all numbers given hereafter include the piece in him!) At least this is what we know at this point, and DD's opinion.

- before killing the Potters he had 6 and was willing to make #7 using Harry's death (DD, HBP). He does not succeed and he stays with 6 till 1993.

- 1993: Harry kills the diary (CoS). LV has 5 anchors.

- 1995: LV reacquires a body and sometime after does Nagini (DD, HBP): 6 anchors. He also comes to know about the diary, so he knows that Nagini is not the 7th.

- 1996: DD destroys the Ring (and his hand in the process). LV is at 5 anchors again, but he probably still believes to be at 6.

So he never actually reaches 7 as far as we are told. Agree, he may have made 17 more without our knowledge ...

Thom Matheson - Nov 3, 2006 7:43 am (#2798 of 2969)

Wingardia, the point of 7 for me is not about the total number in play at any given time, but about the number of times Voldemort has cut into his original soul.

My interpretation is that he wanted no more then a total of 6 cuts into his original soul, for a total including his original piece of 7. There he would stop. I think that he feels that he is so clever, the WW would never be able to find all 6 pieces to be able to fully get him back to mortal. I do not believe that he would keep making more as replacements.

Every time he cuts into himself we see him turn more and more less human like. If he were to keep cutting more away, it would be like cloning a clone over and over again. Eventually you would not have the strain you would be desirous of.

S.E. Jones - Nov 3, 2006 1:28 pm (#2799 of 2969)

I have to agree with wingardo leviosa that, once he reached his desired goal of seven anchors, he would've stopped. He never figured any of his anchors would've been found and destroyed. I agree, WL, that he probably figures they can't be destroyed once he has seven. That would explain why he would've originally planned to use one of them as a weapon, because he figured after reaching 7, it couldn't be destroyed, thus no harm in using it.

I see what you're saying, Thom. My reasoning's just based on a different interpretation of what Voldemort had planned. You're reasoning includes only 7 separate pieces, mine includes 7 anchors (having his soul anchored in seven different places on this side of the veil).

Gerald Costales - Nov 3, 2006 10:07 pm (#2800 of 2969)

".7 anchors (having his soul anchored in seven different places on this side of the veil). S.E. Jones

There were at most 6 Horcruxes. So, shouldn't that be only 6 anchors. The Seventh Soul Bit is now in the reborn Body created in the Graveyard.

The way I see it is that if the Seventh Soul Bit is destroyed after the 6 Horcruxes are destroyed. Then Voldemort should be destroyed since his 6 anchors which were encased in 6 Horcruxes were destroyed.

Diary and Ring destroyed. 4 remaining Horcruxes -

‘ ... the locket, the cup, the snake ... something of Gryffindor’s or Ravenclaw’s ... ‘ (page 636, HBP, American edition)

Also least we forget -
‘... If Dumbledore was right --- and I’m sure he was --- there are still four of them out there. I’ve got to find them and destroy them, and then I’ve got to go after the seventh bit of Voldemort’s soul, that’s still in his body, and I’m the one who’s going to kill him. And if I meet Severus Snape along the way,’ he added, ‘so much the better for me, so much the worse for him.’ (page 651, HBP, American edition)

All this speculation about floating Soul Bits, Horcrux-like Harry, Horcrux-like ‘Scar’, thinking Horcruxes, non-thinking Horcruxes, Horcruxes driven to recreate Bodies, Horcruxes NOT driven to recreate Bodies, torn Soul, healed Soul, etc. is Speculation.

I think besides Dumbledore telling Harry about Horcruxes. The most important thing in the Hunt for the remaining Horcruxes is that Dumbledore was preparing Harry to THINK like Voldemort.

Voldemort is too arrogant to think all of his Horcruxes could be destroyed. Dumbledore burnt his hand destroying the ‘Ring’. The Fake Locket was surrounded by a gauntlet of defenses. THREE Horcruxes should also be surrounded by a gauntlet of defenses.

And Nagini is a mobile and deadly Snake in constant contact with Voldemort himself.

PS MURDER!!!!! Cold-Blooded and Pre-meditated is what is needed to encase a Soul. JM2K ;-) GC

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S.E. Jones - Nov 3, 2006 11:19 pm (#2801 of 2969)

--There were at most 6 Horcruxes. So, shouldn't that be only 6 anchors. The Seventh Soul Bit is now in the reborn Body created in the Graveyard.--

Gerald, I was thinking of Voldemort's body as another anchoring point, but you're right, aside from his body, he'd have six anchors.

However, he never got six anchors (minus the body) at any one time because the diary was destroyed. I still think that he might have made, or, more likely, is planning on making a replacement for the diary. He would be too prideful to think his others would be found and destroyed and so I'm betting he's going to go after the object he had originally planned to turn into a Horcrux the night he went to kill Harry at Godric's Hollow.

shadzar - Nov 4, 2006 3:14 am (#2802 of 2969)

SE Jones:

What if the thing he wanted to turn into a Horcrux that night was Lily? That is the reason he was willing to let her live. What better place for a Horcrux than inside your own enemy, so that the enemy must be killed in order to destroy the Horcrux.

But that would ruin your idea there.

Choices - Nov 4, 2006 10:35 am (#2803 of 2969)

Voldemort was very interested in making 7 soul bits - 6 in Horcruxes and one in himself. If he made replacements for lost Horcruxes, then he destroys the concept of 7 - the most magical number. I do not think he would do that. Also, for the sake of the story, I think there has to be a set number of Horcruxes that Harry has to find. Dumbledore told him there would be 6 Horcruxes and the 7th piece of soul inside Voldemort. If Voldemort keeps replacing Horcruxes, then he could do that faster than Harry could find and destroy them and this story would go on forever. Not that that would be a bad thing - I'd love it.

Mrs Brisbee - Nov 4, 2006 10:52 am (#2804 of 2969)

Wasn't the whole concept destroyed with the diary, then? Or rather, as soon as he found out about the diary?

S.E. Jones - Nov 4, 2006 10:54 am (#2805 of 2969)

Choices, it only destroys the concept if you look at it in terms of 7 separate soul bits, if you look at it in terms of his soul residing in seven different places on this side of the veil (seven anchors existing at one time) then it upholds the concept.

Thom Matheson - Nov 4, 2006 6:44 pm (#2806 of 2969)

Sarah, if that were the case the only way to stop Voldemort would be to kill him first to keep him from continually replacing those that become destroyed. Dumbledore was clear that the Horcruxes had to go first in order to make Voldemort mortal. This is also confirmed with the locket note from RAB. If Voldemort has lost 2 then he is down to 4 + his own for a total of 5. In order to make more he would have to further dissect his own soul further then the original 7 parts. Making his original soul down to 1/9th it's original, assuming that he would add two replacement Horcruxes. I would also think that further damage to his soul would make him that much more vulnerable to attack when the time comes. It would also change him physically, and, guessing here, more snakelike. He keeps that up and how will he hold a wand?

No, Voldemort has made all of his Horcruxes, and it is now up to Harry to find and destroy them.

S.E. Jones - Nov 4, 2006 7:06 pm (#2807 of 2969)

Thom --Sarah, if that were the case the only way to stop Voldemort would be to kill him first to keep him from continually replacing those that become destroyed.--

No, not necessarily. It all depends on what he does or doesn't know. Voldemort only knows about one Horcrux being destroyed - the diary- and thus wouldn't be going around making more Horcruxes all willy nilly. He made Nagini Horcrux number 6, so all he'd have to do is replace Horcrux number 1 and he'd have his seven anchors, or so he thinks (we, of course know that Dumbledore has already destroyed the ring-Horcrux). Voldemort would be far too prideful to think that anyone else would find and destroy any other Horcruxes ("He hid [the ring]... never guessing that I might one day take the trouble to visit the ruin, or that I might be keeping an eye open for traces of magical concealment."); I'm sure he blames the diary's destruction squarely on Lucius, who he had given the diary to. All the other Horcruxes are stashed away somewhere (except Nagini, who he keeps by him). I think this is why Dumbledore was so secretive about his Horcrux hunt, so Voldemort wouldn't find out, go check out his Horcruxes, and either move them or create new ones to replace those he's missing. Dumbledore pointed out in HBP, Voldemort was so eager to tear his own soul that he never stopped to think about the power of a soul that is whole and untorn, but that also probably means he's never really stopped to think about the consequences of splitting his soul so often and thus probably wouldn't hesitate to do it again.

Thom Matheson - Nov 4, 2006 8:02 pm (#2808 of 2969)

Sarah, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one as well. I believe that the Horcruxes are NOT about how many anchors are outstanding and active, but how one becomes immortal by splitting their one and only soul. Voldemort felt he could go further then anyone else by splitting his into the magical best of 7. Once you have 7 pieces out there, by making more, as needed, even if it is just 1 more, means that HIS soul in more parts then 7. That is my main hang-up here.

If we went one step further, and he choose to invite his Death Eaters, in on this deal, Voldemort could create an army of immortals, all with multiple Horcruxes. How invincible would that be?

wingardio leviosa - Nov 4, 2006 11:43 pm (#2809 of 2969)

On this I'm definitely on S.E.'s side. That is 7 for the Horcruxes and not for the split soul pieces. As from DD's and Slug's words in HBP - every murder tears the soul. If we stick to the soul pieces, it means that LV has never killed more than 6 people. With his parents, Myrtle, Bryce, James, Lily, Hepzibah we are at 7 confirmed, and others (what's-the-name he caught in Albania with Peter; A. Bones; ...) suspected. So he has already ripped more than 7 pieces out of his soul. Another consequence - if the 'soul pieces' theory would stand - would be that after the 6th murder he could not do any others! So Harry would be safe in confronting him...:-)

The Horcrux thing is just like, those ripped out pieces being taken and anchored to this world. So the main soul piece would never be able to cross the veil without them when the carrier body dies. If they were not anchored it is supposed that the torn pieces follow the main one, instead, when time comes.

wingardio leviosa - Nov 5, 2006 3:26 am (#2810 of 2969)

On the topic of the race between Harry (destroying Horcruxes) and LV (making new ones).

1. I believe it will be like that, actually. Clearly, LV has the material advantage. But Harry has the psychological advantage. He knows what he has to do - LV, maybe for a while will not even realize that a race is going on. Sure, he knows he has to make at least one final Horcrux. No need to hurry about that, he can stick to his fastidious m.o.: a significant murder and a meaningful and powerful object. [His most likely plan involves IMHO Harry and the Sword; Snape's words about LV willing to take care of Harry personally (HBP, Ch.28) may be true after all]

2. When and if LV'll discover about the Ring he may get more nervous and try to hurry up. But still he may not have it so easy. We do not positively know that to make an Horcrux (after a murder), a spell is enough. A potion may be involved, a difficult one probably; and that can take months and lead to more complications (Why do I suddenly feel the need to add shampoo to the shopping list? ;-))

So, even if it is such a race, it is not a doomed race for Harry after all.

S.E. Jones - Nov 5, 2006 3:52 am (#2811 of 2969)

wingardio leviosa --With his parents, Myrtle, Bryce, James, Lily, Hepzibah we are at 7 confirmed, and others (what's-the-name he caught in Albania with Peter; A. Bones; ...) suspected.--

Well, if you count Bertha (the one he kills in Albania), you actually get 9 (the Riddles could count as 3). Then there's also Dorcus Meadows, which would be 10. I'm betting there's definitely more.

Thom Matheson - Nov 5, 2006 6:20 am (#2812 of 2969)

Just because you murder, does not mean you create a Horcrux. That only happens with the additional spell. You tear your soul every time you commit a murder, but you do not need to tear it out and create a Horcrux. I guess we will all have to wait and see. That hasn't every happened before in this series.

Gerald Costales - Nov 5, 2006 7:36 am (#2813 of 2969)

(re: post #2806)

"If Voldemort has lost 2 then he is down to 4 + his own for a total of 5. In order to make more he would have to further dissect his own soul further then the original 7 parts. Making his original soul down to 1/9th it's original, assuming that he would add two replacement Horcruxes. I would also think that further damage to his soul would make him that much more vulnerable to attack when the time comes. It would also change him physically, and, guessing here, more snakelike.’ Thom Matheson

If Voldemort is more snakelike, than like a snake couldn’t Voldemort re-grow the torn and removed pieces of his Original Soul? Snakes and other Reptiles can loose tails and then re-grow replacement tails. The idea that the Soul can heal from Murders not used to create Horcruxes has been brought up. Why not expand the idea that the Soul not only can heal itself from rips, but can also re-grow removed Soul Bits that are used to create Horcruxes.

Expressions like - ‘You broke my Heart,’ - could just be rephrased to ‘You broke my Soul." That famous expression - ‘I left my Heart in San Francisco,’ - could be rephrased to ‘I left my Soul (or a Soul Bit) in San Francisco.’ If people say, ‘I put all of my Heart and Soul into solving that problem.’ And if ‘Time cures a Broken Heart,’ than why not ‘Time cures a Broken Soul.’?

But, I must agree with Thom though -

"No, Voldemort has made all of his Horcruxes, and it is now up to Harry to find and destroy them.’ ;-) GC

Choices - Nov 5, 2006 1:54 pm (#2814 of 2969)

I agree Thom, just because Voldemort has murdered numerous times, he has not removed those soul pieces and made them into Horcruxes - they are still in his body. As far as we know he has removed only six pieces and encased them in objects to create Horcruxes.

Madame Pomfrey - Nov 5, 2006 6:15 pm (#2815 of 2969)

I agree, also! His soul is shredded, but he only used 6 of the pieces to encase in his Horcruxes. Dumbledore said "the seventh part of his soul, however maimed, resides inside of his regenerated body." It is the seventh piece no matter how many times he has murdered because it remains in his body.

wingardio leviosa - Nov 6, 2006 4:28 am (#2816 of 2969)

Thom,

'You tear your soul every time you commit a murder, but you do not need to tear it out and create a Horcrux' :

the tearing of the soul and the creation of Horcruxes are distinct, I completely agree. You can do the first but avoid the second, you can do the first and the second, you cannot do the second without the first.

So LV has killed a flock. He has made - from selected murders - 6 Horcruxes (of which one was destroyed and he knows it - the Diary; one more was destroyed and he may know it or not - the Ring). Up to here - this is canon - we agree.

What would be the problem if he'd decide now to kill someone else and make one more Horcrux if he so wishes? (or better, if JKR so wishes)? Or two, three, eleven more - depending on how many he learns are destroyed - up to reaching the magic number of Seven Horcruxes At One Time? Do we have any canon evidence that this cannot be done?

T Vrana - Nov 6, 2006 6:25 am (#2817 of 2969)

wv - Do we have any evidence that LV killed a flock personally? We know some are not important enough for him to kill (Regulus) and if a defecting DE isn't important enough, who is? I think many have been killed on his orders, but we don't know he killed many. In fact, when he does kill someone, it is noted. Don't recall who, but there was a witch who was killed by LV personally and it was mentioned (by Moody, I think?). If he killed loads, why mention it?

wingardio leviosa - Nov 6, 2006 8:16 am (#2818 of 2969)

The tiara in the RoR has been mentioned 3.7 zillion times in this thread only as a 'possible Horcrux'. In particular as Ravenclaw's object.

The thing that does not fit this hypothesis at all is that the tiara lies forgotten and apparently undefended in the RoR, like any odd object someone wanted to hide in a hurry. Seeing what protection the Ring and the Locket had, one thinks LV would do better.

However, maybe he did better. Then in some instance he needed the tiara, took it from its sanctuary, and then when he had used it he had to hide it in a hurry.

Why needing the tiara? The Founders' objects have their magical properties, remember. Perhaps that is what he needed in that moment.

What about a tiara? We know about another one (Molly's grand-aunt's) and it is a Goblin-made tiara.

Now there is just such a small instance happening in PS/SS which left me puzzled...

Quirrell/LV was able to open Gringotts safest safe with relative ease!

You can attribute this to LV's powers. But LV at the time had almost no power. He was on Unicorn blood just to survive. Regarding Quirrell's power... not that much to show around.

My petty 2+2 operation is:

LV/Quirrell went to pick up the tiara from wherever he had previously hidden it. Using the tiara's power (which may be a custom-series Goblin-made one) he gained access to Gringotts vault, to his delusion (the stone wasn't there any more). In PS/SS, the Goblin says (about DD's vault) that to open it, it is necessary to be a Goblin. So the tiara's power does not need to be so strange. Just, when you wear it, you *are* a Goblin. Coming back to LV looking into the emptiness of DD's vault, when he could stop swearing his luck he rushed to Hogwarts to see what had been of the stone. Once there he hid the now-useless tiara in the RoR...

Result=3.

Perfect. Or?

Soul Search - Nov 6, 2006 8:50 am (#2819 of 2969)

wingardio leviosa,

While the ring Horcrux had a lot of deadly protections, not all Horcruxes need similar protections. In fact, it may be that the protections would call undesired attention to the Horcrux object. So, having some of his Horcruxes without serious protections would be an appropriate strategy. Think "Purloined Letter."

We still don't know why Voldemort went to visit Dumbledore. It very well could have been to place the tiara or to check on it.

I still give high odds to the RoR storeroom tiara being a Horcrux.

Thom Matheson - Nov 6, 2006 12:39 pm (#2820 of 2969)

Wingardia, You are correct in saying that he could have any number of Horcruxes that he chooses, but his goal, according to Dumbledore, was that he would want 7, as it is the most powerful magic number. That being tearing his own soul into 7 pieces. 6 are in Horcruxes plus what is left is in him.

This is still about Voldemort’s soul, not Horcruxes. A Horcrux is merely the vessel that houses the soul. If his belief is that 7 total soul is the correct amount, this we have as canon, I am placing my faith in the story that the soul stops there.

We are also seeing that every time he loses more of his torn soul, he gains more and more snakelike tendencies, including his physical appearance. If he were to keep adding Horcruxes as they are taken and destroyed, he would continually be cutting his own original soul further and further until he becomes the snake. He would lose limbs and without the control of a wand, what and where does that leave him. He becomes defensive against any and all, including his own DE. I do not believe that he planned for more then the 6 pieces nor felt the need for more in order to retain his immortality. After all who would be good enough to find his secrets? Maybe Dumbledore only, but that was taken care of by Snape and Malfoy.

S.E. Jones - Nov 6, 2006 1:59 pm (#2821 of 2969)

T Vrana --We know some are not important enough for him to kill (Regulus) and if a defecting DE isn't important enough, who is? I think many have been killed on his orders, but we don't know he killed many.--

That Regulus was too unimportant to have been killed personally is Sirius's opinion, so I'm not sure we can really use it as much of a guideline. But, you're right, we don't know how many he's killed, but that means we don't know who's argument it backs either, the number could be much higher or much lower than we think. What we do know is that he's killed more people than what he needs for his 6 Horcruxes.

By the way, from the TLC/Mugglenet interview:

MA: Forgive me if I'm remembering incorrectly, but was Regulus the one who was murdered by Voldemort ó

JKR: Well Sirius said he wouldn't have been because he wasn't important enough, remember?

MA: But that doesn’t have to be true, if [R.A.B.] is writing Voldemort a personal note.

JKR: That doesn't necessarily show that Voldemort killed him, personally, but Sirius himself suspected that Regulus got in a little too deep. Like Draco. He was attracted to it, but the reality of what it meant was way too much to handle.

So, is Sirius's word supposed to be reliable or not in this instance?

Thom --You are correct in saying that he could have any number of Horcruxes that he chooses, but his goal, according to Dumbledore, was that he would want 7, as it is the most powerful magic number. That being tearing his own soul into 7 pieces. 6 are in Horcruxes plus what is left is in him.

This is still about Voldemort’s soul, not Horcruxes. A Horcrux is merely the vessel that houses the soul. If his belief is that 7 total soul is the correct amount, this we have as canon, I am placing my faith in the story that the soul stops there.--

This is using one interpretation of the canon we have. The way I, and apparently also Wingardio Leviosa, interpret the canon is that, to Voldemort, it's all about Death and not at all about his soul (if it were, would he have split it?). He was worried about his spirit being able to pass beyond the veil should his body be destroyed and that's why he set out to make Horcruxes. He wanted 6 Horcruxes, this we know. He wanted his soul anchored in seven different locations, this we know. He only knows about 1 Horcrux being destroyed, this we also know. I don't think it's a great leap in logic to say that he could create another Horcrux to replace the one he's missing. We don't know what happens to that bit of soul that was in the Horcruxes that were destroyed. It could be that they were destroyed as well or that they passed beyond the veil and are waiting for him there, in either case, he doesn't have his desired 7 soul bits on this side of the veil any longer. We're not talking about a dozen more Horcruxes, that is unnecessary to the story; we're just talking about one more. I think it's quite possible that he'll at least be attempting it at the end of Book 7 before the big fight between he and Harry.

HungarianHorntail11 - Nov 6, 2006 3:06 pm (#2822 of 2969)

We are also seeing that every time he loses more of his torn soul, he gains more and more snakelike tendencies, including his physical appearance. Thom Matheson

I am not certain we can attribute these characteristics solely to soul-tearing, Thom. Remember, he had put himself through numerous experiments, not to mention "milking Nagini" (whatever that means) so I am under the impression that much of the physical changes may also be due to the aforementioned. A while back, we had a discussion involving his physical changes and I believe it was Choices who came up with what I thought was the most likely scenario in that he had found a way to anchor his soul (via Horcruxes) and the physical changes were due to the experimentation in an effort to anchor his body in an effort to prevent himself being ripped from it again. Then he would most certainly (in his mind) be immortal.

S.E. Jones - Nov 6, 2006 4:37 pm (#2823 of 2969)

HH11 --"milking Nagini" (whatever that means)--

To "milk" a snake refers to extracting venom from the snake. I'm wondering if the thing he turned into prior to getting his body back needed to drink the venom?

T Vrana - Nov 6, 2006 4:38 pm (#2824 of 2969)

LV must be experimenting with his body separate from Horcruxes. Horcruxes will only keep your soul from crossing over, they will not stop your body from aging. I would think he is trying to make his body immortal as well.

Thom Matheson - Nov 6, 2006 7:14 pm (#2825 of 2969)

Just another fly in the ointment, but does he still have only a half life now that he has a body? What I mean is was his soul involved in the half life and if so where does that leave him and his Horcruxes?

Mattew Bates - Nov 6, 2006 8:23 pm (#2826 of 2969)

I know the conversation has wandered away from what I was talking about last week, but I found an interesting tidbit about what JKR considers as the nature of the soul while re-reading PoA over the weekend. While speaking of the Dementor's Kiss:

"Oh no," said Lupin. "Much worse than that. You can exist without your soul, you know, as long as your brain and your heart are still working. But you'll have no sense of self, no memory, no ... anything. There's no chance of recovery. You'll just -- exist. As an empty shell. And your soul is gone forever ... lost."

PoA, Ch. 12 - The Patronus - p. 247, U.S. paperback edition

I know this goes against some of what I was arguing before, but I read this as canon evidence that each Horcrux will have both a sense of self and a sense of memory.

To add a smidge to the current conversation - S.E. Jones, I found a quote regarding Nagini's venom:
"a potion concocted from unicorn blood, and the snake venom Nagini provided ... I was soon returned to an almost human form, and strong enough to travel."
GoF, Ch. 33 - The Death Eaters - p. 656, U.S. paperback edition

S.E. Jones - Nov 6, 2006 8:34 pm (#2827 of 2969)

You'd think the "half life" thing (I take it you mean from drinking the Unicorn blood) only affected Quirrell's body. I always thought he was having Quirrell drink it so he wouldn't die. I believe, in GoF, Voldemort pointed out that all the things he inhabited as a disembodied spirit died soon after he took them over and he would've wanted Quirrell to survive through the whole year.

Gerald Costales - Nov 7, 2006 9:12 am (#2828 of 2969)

Here are my brief thoughts on Horcruxes :

- Voldemort has stopped making Horcruxes.
- Harry will hunt down the last four Horcruxes and destroy them.
- And finally Harry will destroy the Seventh Soul Bit residing in Voldemort. And Bye-Bye Voldemort.

If Harry could do a Dementor's type Kiss to remove that Seventh Soul Bit. Then Voldemort would ...

‘You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore?’ called Voldemort... . ‘Above such brutality, are you?’

‘We both know that there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom,’ Dumbledore said calmly.

‘Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit.‘

‘There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore!’ snarled Voldemort.

‘You are quite wrong,’ said Dumbledore. ‘Indeed, your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness.’ Order of the Phoenix)

(I cheated and got this from the Lexicon and didn't look for it in the Books.)

PS My candidates for the unknown Horcrux. Something from Ravenclaw. ;-) GC

T Vrana - Nov 7, 2006 7:13 pm (#2829 of 2969)

Excellent thought, GC.

On Harry as Horcrux. If LV has a piece of soul (his original minus some parts) and Harry has a piece of LV's soul, then LV would have marked him "as his equal", they each a part of LV's divided soul.

Thom Matheson - Nov 7, 2006 11:00 pm (#2830 of 2969)

Why would Voldemort want to kill Harry then and risk losing one of his Horcruxes? When thinking immortal, Harry isn't the only "Great" wizard that will come alone. There would be others at some point.

TheSaint - Nov 8, 2006 1:06 am (#2831 of 2969)

Voldie does not know that Harry holds the piece...nor did he know that part of the prophecy. He also may be holding a piece of soul, but not as a Horcrux. If the bounced AK gave him some of Voldie 's powers perhaps the torn piece simply returned to Harry as drawn to the body to which it belonged, seeing as the Vapormort fled. Jolted out of the body by shock, unable to move on, the other half missing, it went to the closest living thing?

Perhaps Harry's eyes are green and look like Lily's because the piece of soul he holds was the piece created with Lily's death. Just a thought.

haymoni - Nov 8, 2006 6:32 am (#2832 of 2969)

Yes, I have always liked the idea that Harry is an accidental Horcrux.

Of course that means that Harry has to figure out how to get the soul-bit out of him...

TheSaint - Nov 8, 2006 7:18 am (#2833 of 2969)

Yes that part is a bit tricky! LOL

I like the UnHorcrux theory, as when that soul bit is freed, it will return to Voldie ...having been basted in love...he will throw himself off the wall!

We (My new husband, The One, and I) watched POA the other day and I had to laugh at the candle snuff at 7 during the Patronus lesson and of course Lupin's relighting.

Madame Pomfrey - Nov 8, 2006 8:18 am (#2834 of 2969)

Wow, Saint! I haven't heard that one, I like it. That would prove that Harry's power of love (thinking of Huey Lewis and The News, here) will kill Voldemort. If Harry's scar is an accidental Horcrux I think Voldemort may now suspect, since the end of OoP, that it is. He has ordered Harry not to be touched by his DE. Of course, it could be because he wants to kill Harry with his DE audience but, being the great wizard that he is supposed to be he should wonder why Harry has inherited some of his skills and why he is able to connect with Harry's mind, why he cannot kill him etc. Perhaps the reason Dementors are so attracted to Harry is because he has more than his own soul, he also has a bit of Voldemort's.

Thom Matheson - Nov 8, 2006 9:17 am (#2835 of 2969)

Is that like a new virus called YOU KNOW WHO? on your computer? Harry plants a Muggle virus, (thinking nanites here). A Love Bug. Ok I'll stop. It really bugs me when I go off like that.

HungarianHorntail11 - Nov 8, 2006 9:28 am (#2836 of 2969)

I wrote awhile back how interesting the plot line can become, should Big V find out first (if Harry is a Horcrux, which I believe is true). Imagine Big V trying to decide if he is more fearful of Harry alive or of losing a Horcrux. That having been said, he might try to extract the Horcrux from Harry, then try to do away with him. What if Harry finds out first? Remember when he overheard (using the extendable ears) the others talking about him in St. Mungo's and how he felt? I really feel as though this was an early intro. to what may come if he finds out this has indeed happened. Lots of interesting ways in which to go regarding the HAH situation. (Harry-Accidental-Horcrux)

T Vrana - Nov 8, 2006 9:41 am (#2837 of 2969)

Harry just needs a little Dementor kiss on the forehead.

S.E. Jones - Nov 8, 2006 10:13 am (#2838 of 2969)

TheSaint --I like the UnHorcrux theory, as when that soul bit is freed, it will return to Voldie ...having been basted in love...he will throw himself off the wall!--

Madame Pomfrey --Perhaps the reason Dementors are so attracted to Harry is because he has more than his own soul, he also has a bit of Voldemort's.--

While I'm still not sold on the Harry is a Horcrux theory, I really like these last two ideas. I think they would fit in very well with what we know of the themes of the series thus far.

Thom Matheson - Nov 8, 2006 11:31 am (#2839 of 2969)

I can't believe that I am saying this but, it would also point to why Voldemort is so explicate about no one killing Harry. He wouldn't tell anyone about Horcruxes, but would want to extract before killing him.

T Vrana - Nov 8, 2006 11:32 am (#2840 of 2969)

Yes, it would!

(Now that wasn't so hard, was it?)

(Now... the AK that hit DD was weird. Go ahead, say it.....)

Thom Matheson - Nov 8, 2006 11:34 am (#2841 of 2969)

Oh, hush up

HungarianHorntail11 - Nov 8, 2006 12:43 pm (#2842 of 2969)

LOL, Thom and T Vrana!

I agree regarding the Dementor kiss on the forehead.

Also, TheSaint, good point - I'd like to see Big V thrash himself. (OT, congratulations on the wedding! Last I heard, you were engaged.)

Madame Pomfrey - Nov 8, 2006 12:54 pm (#2843 of 2969)

LoL, T & Thom. I needed a laugh. Incidentally, I'm with T Vrana on the on the AK thingy.

nthdavid - Nov 8, 2006 1:56 pm (#2844 of 2969)

I still say that Harry will use a switching spell to 'give' the scar-Horcrux to LV.

HungarianHorntail11 - Nov 8, 2006 2:04 pm (#2845 of 2969)

I don't think it's that easy to get rid of a Horcrux, nthdavid.

OT: Cute avatar, Madame Pomfrey! LOL

Madame Pomfrey - Nov 8, 2006 4:38 pm (#2846 of 2969)

I agree, H.H. It will be interesting to see how the scar(if a Horcrux) will be handled because it will have to be destroyed before Harry can destroy Voldemort.

Thanks, Horntail. My daughter does my avatars for me since I haven't took the time to learn how myself.

Thom Matheson - Nov 8, 2006 6:58 pm (#2847 of 2969)

We have seen AJ's destroy houses, we have seen AK's destroy stone statues, so why is it so hard to think that this AK didn't have enough kick to send DD over the wall? I can't get past this. I am fairly good in the sciences, have a strong background in trauma medicine. I understand all your points. But Dumbledore pitching himself over the side? A lake full of DOLD? come on you guys. Think about what you are saying.

Keep this up and we will be breaking down the Paul is dead theory again. Maybe I should play the movie backwards to see if Dumbledore is dead comes up. Sorry T Vrana, I can't do it?

T Vrana - Nov 8, 2006 7:10 pm (#2848 of 2969)

TM- You posted twice somehow. I'll take up the DOLD lake et al on the other thread...

Thom Matheson - Nov 8, 2006 7:42 pm (#2849 of 2969)

oops. sorry folks Thanks T.

Gerald Costales - Nov 9, 2006 6:54 am (#2850 of 2969)

" ... It will be interesting to see how the scar (if a Horcrux) will be handled because it will have to be destroyed before Harry can destroy Voldemort." Madame Pomfrey

Harry could go to a Muggle doctor and zap the "Scar" with some type of laser removal equipment.

"I don't think it's that easy to get rid of a Horcrux . . " HungarianHorntail11

HH11 - I agree, but I have my doubts about the "Scar and/or Harry" being a Horcrux Theories.

About the Night Harry received his "Scar", there are a lot of questions with no definite answers. There should be questions especially with maybe an AK bouncing around Harry’s Nursery; giving Harry his "Scar"; vaporizing Voldemort, and destroying a Whole House.

Haven’t you wondered if that particular AK may have had some ‘Extra Magic’ behind it? Especially when you take into account that a Whole House was destroyed and left in ruins.

Gee, the most similar AK with that type of Destructive Power was the AK that Wormtail used to kill those 12 Muggles. That AK also blasted a crater big enough to expose the sewer beneath the pavement. (Which conveniently let the Ratty Wormtail to escape from Sirius.)

Haven’t you wondered if that particular AK may have had some ‘Extra Magic’ behind it? Especially when you take into account that a Whole Street was destroyed with a Hugh Crater blasted into the pavement and 12 Muggles were Killed all at once.

Gee, it might make sense if the same Wand was used. Gee, what are the chances that the ‘Yew Wand’ had that type of Destructive Power? Now, it wasn’t like Voldemort or Wormtail were using some Dark Magic with those particular AK’s? Voldemort was busy accidentally or intentionally creating Horcrux Harry or Horcrux Scar or maybe just a plain Horcrux...

With Voldemort vaporized - Who ran off with the ‘Yew Wand’? Why not Wormtail!!!!! Wormtail was the Potter’s Secret Keeper. Who else better to take Voldemort to the Potter’s Home. And with Voldemort Vaporized - Why wouldn’t Wormtail grab the ‘Yew Wand’ for safekeeping?

PS Gee been wanting to post this idea for a while. Finally, got it done. ;-) GC

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TheSaint - Nov 9, 2006 7:53 am (#2851 of 2969)

(unsubstantiated fan report, Edinburgh Book Festival 2004) JKR told me that Pettigrew took Voldemort's wand the day the Potters were killed and hid it. [Read about the fan report, 2004]

That one has been around a while. Most people tend to agree, seeing as he had the wand in the graveyard.

HungarianHorntail11 - Nov 9, 2006 8:33 am (#2852 of 2969)

Haven’t you wondered if that particular AK may have had some ‘Extra Magic’ behind it? GC

I kind of thought it had to do with the removal of souls. More than one being removed at one time seems to have a more powerful blast which is something that would (conveniently) lend credence to the HAH theory.

T Vrana - Nov 9, 2006 12:52 pm (#2853 of 2969)

I don't think Pettigrew used an AK did he? He blew up the street with something, but does it ever say it was an AK?

TheSaint - Nov 9, 2006 2:02 pm (#2854 of 2969)

I agree... he was creating a diversion, not trying to kill Sirius. Sirius had to be the fall guy.

HungarianHorntail11 - Nov 9, 2006 3:34 pm (#2855 of 2969)

Good question, T Vrana. I don't think it does say what type of spell was cast.

That sounds right, TheSaint.

Gerald Costales - Nov 9, 2006 8:52 pm (#2856 of 2969)

Here are some notes from the Lexicon -

(Source: What really happened on the night James and Lily were killed? A timeline and commentary - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"It was me what rescued Harry from Lily an' James's house after they was killed! Jus' got him outta the ruins, poor little thing, with a great slash across his forehead, 'an his parents dead...an' Sirius Black turns up, on that flying' motorbike he used to ride. Never occurred to me what he was doin' there..."

-- Rubeus Hagrid

(What Harry remembers)

Man’s voice: "Lily, take Harry and go! It’s him! Go! Run! I’ll hold him off ------" Lily goes to Harry's room where he is in his cot [crib]. According to Voldemort, James died "straight-backed and proud." (GF34) The sounds of someone stumbling from a room -- a door bursting open -- a cackle of high-pitched laughter -- (PA12)
Lily’s voice: "Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!"
Voldemort: "Stand aside you silly girl , stand aside now."
Lily: "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead ----- "
Lily: "Not Harry! Please , have mercy , have mercy, " Harry hears a shrill voice laughing and the woman screaming (PA9, PA12).

Then Harry remembers a blinding green flash and a burning pain in his forehead, then a high, cold cruel laugh. Voldemort had used the Killing Curse on Lily and Harry.

What happened to Harry

... Harry survived, marked with a large jagged wound by the curse meant to take his life. Voldemort lost almost all of his powers as well as his body, and fled "horribly weakened." Dumbledore believes that Lily’s love and sacrifice ("ancient magic") created invincible protection for Harry, and that the curse then rebounded on Voldemort.

Voldemort’s account of what happened to him

"Pain beyond pain, my friends; nothing could have prepared me for it. I was ripped from my body, I was less than spirit, less than the meanest ghost , but still, I was alive. What I was, even I do not know , I, who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality. You know my goal - to conquer death. And now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments worked , for I had not been killed, though the curse should have done it. Nevertheless, I was as powerless as the weakest creature alive," (GF33) Voldemort’s one remaining power is that he can possess the bodies of others.

What happened to the house?

There is some mystery about what happened to the house. We know that other Killing Curses did not damage the structure or the bodies (Riddle House murders, for example); normally it kills but does not leave visible trauma. And yet, Hagrid reports to Dumbledore that the house was "almost" destroyed (PS1); he also tells Harry that an "evil curse" destroyed the house (PS4).

PS Just want to add some more info to this discussion.

PPS Is this the right thread to be discussing this? ;-) GC

T Vrana - Nov 9, 2006 9:05 pm (#2857 of 2969)

AK's do not damage a body, but, in the MoM AK's set a desk on fire and shattered a statue. The AK in Godric's Hollow was rebounded by Lily's love. Didn't they say they keep that room locked in the MOM because it is so powerful? Love, that is...

S.E. Jones - Nov 10, 2006 12:03 am (#2858 of 2969)

Gerald Costales --Is this the right thread to be discussing this?--

I'm not sure what you're discussing, Gerald. If you're wanting to discuss the AK Voldemort used on Harry, or the AK Curse in general, you should probably check out Curses, Hexes and the Unforgivables. If you were wanting to make a point about the AK used the night Harry got his scar to back some theory relating to Horcruxes, then you should state that so that it can add to the Horcrux discussion at hand (I think you were starting to in your next to last post). Adding research material at another's request without any additional thoughts of your own is fine, but otherwise, you should sum up how this additional information relates to the topic at hand or how it backs your or someone else's argument, opinion, theory, etc. This discussion board is set up to work like a round table, where everyone gives their view of something and/or gives their thoughts on others' views so that those views can be corrected and strengthened so that the entire table profits in overall knowledge from the discussion; this is all achieved through organized debate. Information for information's sake doesn't do any good in a classical debate-type situation like this, though, unless it is meant to back up/strengthen something, and thus somehow add to the overall discussion.

For anyone interested, this is part of the reasoning behind why Hosts sometimes allow off-topic discussion within a thread and why they sometimes ask for a discussion to move to a more appropriate thread. Something like discussing all the objects in the room or requirement might seem off-topic on the Horcrux thread, but as long as it is being used to back a Horcrux-related theory (such as the theory that the tiara there is a Horcrux), the discussion is left for a while, but when the discussion becomes centered on just the RoR objects, without the ties to Horcruxes, the discussion would be asked to move to a more appropriate thread by a Host. Just a quick little tidbit for those members who may sometimes wonder why we crazy Hosts do what we do.

HungarianHorntail11 - Nov 10, 2006 5:39 am (#2859 of 2969)

Actually, it does help - as I read GC's summation of the actual AK incident with the thought of solidifying my Harry-Accidental-Horcrux theory.

Dumbledore believes that Lily’s love and sacrifice ("ancient magic") created invincible protection for Harry - GC If he does indeed say this (which I remember something of that nature but not the exact quote) then this gives me a good idea as to what kind of reaction we can expect from Big V when he learns about HAH. After all, Lily's protection may have rendered itself in the form of stalemating Big V rather than a protective shield, so-to-speak.

Then Harry remembers a blinding green flash and a burning pain in his forehead, then a high, cold cruel laugh. Voldemort had used the Killing Curse on Lily and Harry. GC This part confuses me a bit. Is this a direct quote from the book? If so, he used one AK on both - I thought they were separate. And how could he still be laughing if he'd been ripped from his body?

Gerald Costales - Nov 10, 2006 9:28 am (#2860 of 2969)

(re: my post# 2856) - S.E.J. - Thanks for the clarification. I was ‘Under the Gun,’ with someone wanting me off the Computer. Now, about this post - it seems that some theories, discussion, etc. are not backed up by the Books. Thus, the notes from the Lexicon.

(I’ve been ‘called on the carpet’ to back up some of my posts when posting some radical theory or idea. So, I’ve tried to do the research either using the Books or the Lexicon as sources. Now, I don’ always do this. But, I try to do some research more often lately than not. Us Pottermaniacs can be such skeptics.)

I want to pose this question to the HAH theorists -

If Harry is a Horcrux, when was the Horcrux-making Spell uttered?

Now, I borrowed my daughter’s copy of PoA, the snippets of details and dialogue between Lily and Voldemort are found in on pages 179, 239, and 240 of PoA.

(I can’t find these excerpts:

‘The sounds of someone stumbling from a room -- a door bursting open -- a cackle of high-pitched laughter - -’ or

‘Then Harry remembers a blinding green flash and a burning pain in his forehead, then a high, cold cruel laugh. Voldemort had used the Killing Curse on Lily and Harry.’

from either chapters 9 or 12.)

I’m aware that these are snippets and that both Harry and us readers were not supposed to know everything about that night. (Mainly Horcruxes)

Now, my reason for wanting to comparing the details of James’ and Lily’s murders and Wormtail’s escape from Sirius is to point out the extent of damage created by possibly a Spell we have not been told of or (what I’m leaning to) ... ’the Wand’ that was used that Night.

I’ve alluded that either or both Voldemort and/or Wormtail could have been using some ‘Dark Magic’ possibly including but not limited to a Horcrux-making Spell.

Just because AK’s are known to be Green doesn’t exclude the possibly that some ‘Dark Magic’ spell that is also Green was used on Harry’s forehead to create the ‘Scar’.

PS More later. GC

S.E. Jones - Nov 10, 2006 12:18 pm (#2861 of 2969)

My comments were directed at everyone posting research, not just you Gerald. Posts containing nothing but research are sometimes useful to a few (case in point: HH11 found the info useful) but can be laborious for others to have to read through unless you can tell them why it's important for them to read it, i.e. tell them how it's connected to the discussion at hand so they know it's important information. A summary or summarizing question gets the readers' minds working so they can start making mental connections straight away. Gerald, your comments in your last post about the possibility of the power of the rebounding AK suggesting there may have been a rebounding Horcrux spell with it are a perfect example of the kinds of summaries I mean.

As for the quotes you asked about:

‘The sounds of someone stumbling from a room -- a door bursting open -- a cackle of high-pitched laughter - -’

This is from Harry's lessons with Lupin:

PoA12, 240, US: ...then came a new voice, a man's voice, shouting, panicking-

"Lily, take Harry and go! It's him! I'll hold him off-"

The sounds of someone stumbling from a room - a door bursting open - a cackle of high-pitched laughter -

‘Then Harry remembers a blinding green flash and a burning pain in his forehead, then a high, cold cruel laugh. Voldemort had used the Killing Curse on Lily and Harry.’

This one's harder but it sounds like an editor's remark rather than a canon quote.

EDIT: Yeah, I looked at the Lexicon page and it's definitely an editor's remark. They're just narrating what happened next where the previous quote left off. I think the first part of the comment, though, was taken from PS:

Sometimes, when he strained his memory during long hours in his cupboard, he came up with a strange vision: a blinding flash of green light and a burning pain in his forehead. (PS2, 29, US)

Something very painful was going on in Harry's mind. As Hagrid's story came to a close, he saw again the blinding flash of green light, more clearly than he had ever remembered it before - and he remembered something else, for the first time in his life: a high, cold, cruel laugh. (PS4, 56, US)

[/b]HungarianHorntail11[/b] - Nov 10, 2006 2:19 pm (#2862 of 2969)

If the laugh came afterward, could it possibly have been the soul bit in his head he heard? I can't imagine he was laughing during the excruciating pain of being ripped from his body. Anyone following my line of thinking?

Unless, using your excerpts (PS4, 56, US), S.E. Jones, he heard a laugh but not necessarily in the order shown.

Gerald Costales, up until now I believed it would most certainly have to come before casting the AK.

T Vrana - Nov 10, 2006 2:29 pm (#2863 of 2969)

HH- I think the laugh came first. The reason it is mentioned second here, I think, is because it is new information.

Gerald Costales - Nov 10, 2006 2:52 pm (#2864 of 2969)

‘Something very painful was going on in Harry's mind. As Hagrid's story came to a close, he saw again the blinding flash of green light, more clearly than he had ever remembered it before - and he remembered something else, for the first time in his life: a high, cold, cruel laugh.’(PS4, 56, US)

‘If the laugh came afterward, could it possibly have been the soul bit in his head he heard? I can't imagine he was laughing during the excruciating pain of being ripped from his body.’ HungarianHorntail11

And Sirius was laughing after Wormtail's Spell or Explosion killed all those Muggles and blew that Crater in the street.

Could it simply be a Wizard thing or some Hysterical type of Laugh?

But, IMHO all this line means for me ...

‘... and he remembered something else, for the first time in his life: a high, cold, cruel laugh... .’

... is that there was someone else besides Voldemort at the Potter's Home when the Potters were Murdered. I think it was Wormtail but, I think most people think it was Snape.

Either way the Death Eaters are a macabre bunch. Just think of Bella cackling at Harry during the Battle at MoM. ;-) GC

Mattew Bates - Nov 10, 2006 3:06 pm (#2865 of 2969)

Maybe it's just my interpretation, but I don't read that line as being explicit about whether the laugh occurred before or after the flash. The laugh is mentioned last because he's only just remembered it, not necessarily because it happened after the flash.

Choices - Nov 10, 2006 5:54 pm (#2866 of 2969)

Well, Harry should have seen two flashes of green light - the one that killed Lily, and the one that rebounded from Harry back to Voldemort. The high, cruel laugh could have come after Voldemort killed Lily - just before he turned his wand to Harry. That is how I have always seen it in my mind's eye.

Gerald Costales - Nov 10, 2006 9:43 pm (#2867 of 2969)

‘... Harry should have seen two flashes of green light - the one that killed Lily, and the one that rebounded from Harry back to Voldemort.’ Choices

Why couldn’t there have only been ONE flash?

Lily’s voice: "Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!"
Voldemort: "Stand aside you silly girl ... stand aside now... ."
Lily: "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead --- "
Lily: "Not Harry! Please ... have mercy ... have mercy ... "

. . A shrill voice was laughing, the woman was screaming, and Harry knew no more.

... ... . (page 179, PoA, American edition)

IMHO Voldemort was using ‘Dark Magic’ possibly the ‘Horcrux-making Spell’ . But, the only information on the Spell was that there was a Green flash.

Voldemort is no Gentleman. Why would he wait for Lily to move or push Lily aside before he AK’d or use a "Dark Magic Spell" on Harry?

IMHO Voldemort shot the Spell directly at Harry. But, Lily was in the way. *"Stand aside you silly girl ... stand aside now... ."*

The Spell past through Lily and then struck Harry. Lily was screaming as the Spell past through her body. Then the Spell struck Harry’s forehead. As the Spell past through Lily was probably when the "Ancient Magic" took place and Altered the original Spell. The Altered Spell then rebounded to vaporize Voldemort After being stuck by the Altered Spell Harry slipped into unconsciousness.

Only ONE Spell used.

PS Just some interesting information about being struck by Lightning. I would imagine that this would be the closest thing to being struck by a Spell. ;-) GC

Roy Cleveland Sullivan (1912 - September 28, 1983) was a U.S. forest ranger in Shenandoah National Park in Virginia. Sullivan was hit by lightning on seven different occasions and survived all of them. In his lifetime he gained "Human Lightning Rod" as a nickname.

The Seven Lightning Strikes

* 1942: Sullivan was hit for the first time when he was in a fire lookout tower. The lightning bolt struck him in a leg and he lost a nail on his big toe.
* 1969: The second bolt hit him in his truck when he was driving on a mountain road. It knocked him unconscious and burned his eyebrows.
1970: The third strike burned his left shoulder while in his front yard.
* 1972: The next hit happened in a ranger station. The strike set his hair on fire. After that, he began to carry a pitcher of water with him.
August 7, 1973: A lightning bolt hit Sullivan on the head, blasted him out of his car, and again set his hair on fire.
* June 5, 1974: Sullivan was struck by the sixth bolt in a campground, injuring his ankle.
* June 25, 1977: The seventh and final lightning bolt hit him when he was fishing. Sullivan was hospitalized for burns in his chest and stomach.

Roy Sullivan shot himself on September 28, 1983, reputedly over a rejected love.

Two of his ranger hats are on display at two Guinness World Exhibit Halls in New York City and South Carolina.

Reference Guinness Book of Records

(Source: AllExperts - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Looks like Harry was lucky to just survive with only a "Scar".

S.E. Jones - Nov 11, 2006 12:55 am (#2868 of 2969)

I don't think we'll find out he was attempting to kill Lily and Harry with one spell. We've never seen the AK go into anything after hitting something else. For instance, the AK at the MoM didn't blow up the statue and then go on to hit Harry behind the statue. It stopped when it hit a target. I think the force of the spell has to be absorbed by a living body to work properly which would mean that he AK'd Lily and the spell stopped when it hit Lily and did what it was supposed to, which would mean that he had to use a separate spell on Harry. So, basically, I don't think it’s the same as being struck by Lightning. We've never seen any other spell, that I can think of, that hit one person and then transferred to another in a line. The spell either stops when it hits its target, stops when it hits an alternative target (like the statue at the MoM), or rebounds (which causes the most widespread results because the magic no longer has a specific target to close in on).

We know that Voldemort isn't a gentleman, but he even tells Harry that he was going to let Lily live (no doubt for some purpose of his own). I think he just AK'd her after she refused to move so he could step over her body and do what he'd come there to do, which was AK Harry. I also think we only see one flash of green light because the light would've come out of Voldemort's wand before it hit Lily and Harry wouldn't have seen it. We know he was in his cot and his mother was standing in front of it, between the cot and Voldemort. Any light from the wand would've been obscured by the edge of the cot and Lily's body. The screaming Harry hears is probably Lily dying, then the flash he sees after that that goes along with the laughing is probably Voldemort coming to the cot and shooting the AK at him directly, which is why he associates the green flash with pain in his head and with things going dark.

haymoni - Nov 11, 2006 4:15 am (#2869 of 2969)

I figured the laugh was because finally there was nothing (no adult Potters) to stand in his way of killing the boy.

With all the stress on non-verbal spells, I could see Voldy being powerful and excited enough that after casting Harry's AK, he could have jumped right into thinking about the Horcrux incantation, which caused the soul-bit to enter Harry.

I'm liking the suggestion that Voldy realizes that Harry may be a Horcrux, which is why he doesn't want anyone to hurt him, but it still doesn't explain why Snape couldn't immobilize Harry somehow and take him to Voldy.

Choices - Nov 11, 2006 5:35 pm (#2870 of 2969)

The scene in the movie, which I understand JKR wrote herself, shows Lily falling to the floor dead and Voldemort turning his wand on Harry. It certainly does not show the AK passing through Lily and hitting Harry.

Haymoni - "I could see Voldy being powerful and excited enough that after casting Harry's AK, he could have jumped right into thinking about the Horcrux incantation..... "

How could he do that when he was dead at that point? The AK that bounced back from Harry killed Voldemort.

Gerald Costales - Nov 11, 2006 8:56 pm (#2871 of 2969)

At the Graveyard Lily’s Shadow emerged from Voldemort’s ‘Yew Wand.’ So, the ‘Yew Wand’ was used to kill Lily.

‘I also think we only see one flash of green light because the light would've come out of Voldemort's wand before it hit Lily and Harry wouldn't have seen it. We know he was in his cot and his mother was standing in front of it, between the cot and Voldemort. Any light from the wand would've been obscured by the edge of the cot and Lily's body.’ S.E. Jones

S.E.J. - Makes sense. So, if there were TWO AK’s, I’ll agree that the first most likely killed Lily.

So, Voldemort shots a second AK at Harry, but ...

‘We've never seen any other spell, that I can think of, that hits one person and then transferred to another in a line. The spell either stops when it hits its target, stops when it hits an alternative target (like the statue at the MoM), or rebounds (which causes the most widespread results because the magic no longer has a specific target to close in on).’ S.E. Jones

If the second spell was an AK but didn’t act like an AK. Then shouldn’t we assume that the second spell wasn’t an AK or even ‘any other spell,’ that we can think of?

IMHO - The second spell was ‘Dark Magic’.

But, why did the Rebound Spell increased in POWER? Enough POWER to leave the Potter's Home in RUINS.

"... It was me what rescued Harry from Lily an' James's house after they was killed! Jus' got him outta the ruins, poor little thing, with a great slash across his forehead, 'an his parents dead ... ’ -- Rubeus Hagrid (page 206, PoA, American edition)

IMHO - the ‘Rebound Spell’ was ‘Dark Magic’.

PS Or maybe the ‘Rebound Spell’ increased in POWER because in had just vaporized Voldemort. ;-) GC

T Vrana - Nov 12, 2006 6:36 am (#2872 of 2969)

DD told Harry there is a room in the MoM that is kept locked at all times because it contains a force more wonderful and terrible than death... love. I do think LV used an AK, but rebounding off Lily's shield of love, it became more powerful and destructive.

wingardio leviosa - Nov 12, 2006 9:11 am (#2873 of 2969)

GC,

the AK is Dark Magic.

Why should it be so strange that 'that' rebounding AK could destroy the house and kill LV?

We have seen the Memory Charm that Lockhart fired, just skewed by Ron's broken wand, DID cause the tunnel to cave in AND deleted Lockhart's memory. There are many more examples of lesser spells tipping shelves and smashing walls in the battles in the MoM and in the Tower, but Lockhart's example is the most detailed and it fits what is known on GH's night.

Neither we can say that a Memory Charm is more powerful than an AK.

According to Moody/Crouch, AK needs 'a powerful bit of magic behind'. Plus, I'd say that an AK shot by LV himself - not against a random target but against his would-be nemesis - would be an AK 'on hormones', with all the necessary force to crumble house walls (which are usually much thinner than castle walls, and we have seen those crumbling in the Tower battle too).

Gerald Costales - Nov 12, 2006 11:49 am (#2874 of 2969)

"the AK is Dark Magic." wingardio leviosa

But, the AK was being taught in the Defense Against the Darks Arts class wasn't it.

"According to Moody/Crouch, AK needs 'a powerful bit of magic behind'. Plus, I'd say that an AK shot by LV himself - not against a random target but against his would-be nemesis - would be an AK ‘on hormones’ ‘ wingardio leviosa

Now, ‘an AK ‘on hormones’ ‘ is what I’m talking about. That AK shot at Harry wasn’t just an Average AK. We could expect the ‘Rebound AK’ to vaporize Voldemort. But, then that Spell continuing and increasing in POWER and reducing the Potter’s Home to ruins. Shouldn't the ‘Rebound AK’ have been losing POWER. We could expect the ‘Rebound AK’ to vaporize Voldemort. I still believe that there is quite a bit of difference from an average AK Spell ‘crumbling Tower walls’ and some possibly Unknown Spell ‘reducing an entire housed to ruins.’ ;-) GC

HungarianHorntail11 - Nov 12, 2006 12:53 pm (#2875 of 2969)

But GC, the AK curse was being taught by a DE. Yet another example of how things were beginning to run amok in the WW.

wingardio leviosa - Nov 12, 2006 1:27 pm (#2876 of 2969)

LOL, GC, figure out - "Homework: train the AK between yourselves. Next Monday the survivors are expected to kill me".

No, it was not being taught. Nobody learnt from Crouch how to do an AK. Crouch was doing the good teacher in that moment. I mean, in a course of Defense Against Street Robbery I'd expect to be shown a knife or a bat, just to know what I'm going to face and how to defend against that, not to use them and do my own robberies. Mind that AK admits no defense, except being Harry Potter. However, when it was Imperio's turn, Moody/Crouch was teaching how to resist it. Harry then could resist LV's Imperio at the end of that book...

Gerald Costales - Nov 12, 2006 6:04 pm (#2877 of 2969)

‘We've never seen any other spell, that I can think of, that hits one person and then transferred to another in a line. The spell either stops when it hits its target, stops when it hits an alternative target (like the statue at the MoM),).’ S.E. Jones

Now, if the AK was just an Average AK then the ...

‘ ... spell should have stopped when it hit its target ... ’

The ‘Rebound Spell’ didn’t STOP. And as far as we can tell the ‘Rebound Spell’ not only past through Voldemort to vaporize his body, but continued to travel and reduce the Potter’s Home to RUINS.

‘It was me what rescued Harry from Lily an' James's house after they was killed! Jus' got him outta the ruins, poor little thing, with a great slash across his forehead, 'an his parents dead ... ’ -- Rubeus Hagrid (page 206, PoA, American edition)

Either, were talking about an Average AK that isn’t acting like an AK or couldn’t it just be possible that this Spell is something we’ve ...

... ‘never seen and is unlike any other spell, that I can think of ... ’

You can’t have it both ways. Did the ‘Rebound Spell’ vaporize Voldemort and STOP or did in continue to travel and reduce the Potter’s House to RUINS.

PS As far as I know Harry is the only person to survive from an AK, but was the Spell was just an Average AK. Or is more likely that the Spell that night was unlike any other spell, that we can think of. ;-) GC

T Vrana - Nov 12, 2006 6:14 pm (#2878 of 2969)

Why are we ignoring DD's assertion that love is wonderful, terrible and powerful, so much so that that particular room in the MoM is kept locked at all times? Harry et al waltzed into several rooms at the MoM, unimpeded, time, thought, prophecy, but one room's door melted Harry's nifty door opening knife This ordinary (I am proposing) AK ran up against a mother's love and sacrifice. It is a major theme, after all...

Gerald Costales - Nov 12, 2006 6:20 pm (#2879 of 2969)

"This ordinary (I am proposing) AK ran up against a mother's love and sacrifice. It is a major theme, after all..." T Vrana

T Vrana - But after it ran up against a mother's love did the Spell remain Average ;-) GC

Choices - Nov 12, 2006 6:21 pm (#2880 of 2969)

I see the rebounding AK hitting Voldemort as being like a bullet hitting a large drum of gasoline. Normally a bullet would just go until it hit something or ran out of velocity and stopped. But, if it hit a drum of gasoline, it would cause quite an explosion. Now an AK hits a person and they are history, but Voldemort's AK hit Harry and his protection caused it to rebound and hit Voldemort - admittedly a volatile person. It was like light hitting a mirror - the light is bright, but when it hits a mirror there is an even brighter flash of light. I think the AK's power increased after it hit Harry and became even more powerful. After hitting Harry the AK experienced a burst of added power which killed Voldemort and caused the house to end up in ruins.

T Vrana - Nov 12, 2006 6:51 pm (#2881 of 2969)

Choices- I agree, but my image, similar to yours, is more of a high powered hose sending a stream of water at a shield. The resulting rebound would go everywhere.

GC- I would have to say, yes.

wingardio leviosa - Nov 13, 2006 12:09 am (#2882 of 2969)

Once more I recall Lockhart's memory charm. It misfired, destroyed the tunnel AND still deleted Lockhart's own memory.

I cannot remember this exactly but I think there is a DE left stunned in the Tower Battle by a ricocheted hex.

Looks like JKR has a 'ballistic' view of hexes - they must be aimed, they must hit their target to take the intended effect, they can destroy objects in their paths, they can ricochet and hit an unintended (human) target, whereupon they do the meant effect on him.

Therefore I still find nothing strange in the rebounding AK destroying the house and killing LV. Love/Ancient Magic/Lily's protection did already something extraordinary, because - as DD and Crouch state - nothing else is known that can bounce an AK, and even that was the first known occurrence.

Gerald Costales - Nov 13, 2006 6:30 am (#2883 of 2969)

‘ ... Lockhart's memory charm. It misfired, destroyed the tunnel AND still deleted Lockhart's own memory. ‘ wingardio leviosa

wingardio leviosa - But, Ron’s Wand was defective. Ron started spitting up Slugs after trying to simply Hex Malfoy. (Eat Slugs!) It’s no wonder the Memory Charm backfired and malfunctioned so terribly. A typical Memory Charm would probably never have caused the damage that Lockhart’s Charm did when he used Ron’s Defective Wand.

That’s the trouble. Some of the counter-arguments are based on exotic reasoning - Voldemort’s body exploding - ‘ ... the AK experienced a burst of added power which killed Voldemort and caused the house to end up in ruins ... ’

‘This ordinary (I am proposing) AK ran up against a mother's love and sacrifice... .’ - this counter-argument suggests a Shield Charm which I find valid.

But, IMHO some of you are avoiding the simple explanation - that Spell that Night was Different because it produced and caused results that NEVER happened before.

PS Or could the Spell simply have been a Spell Unknown that produced a Green Flash like a typical and average AK. ;-) GC

T Vrana - Nov 13, 2006 9:22 am (#2884 of 2969)

GC- No shield charm, just a mother's love. I think it was an ordinary AK from a powerful wizard which came up against a 'magic' more powerful and terrible than any other magic, love.

DD seems to think it was an AK, without question. Perhaps because he got a first hand report from someone.....

haymoni - Nov 13, 2006 10:30 am (#2885 of 2969)

Choices - I just pictured him saying "Avada Kedavra" and then immediately thinking "Makus Horcruxus" - or whatever the incantation turns out to be - almost as if they were one in the same.

Choices - Nov 13, 2006 10:56 am (#2886 of 2969)

Haymoni, I just don't think there would have been time. Time matters in magic. From what we have read and seen (movies), you say Avada Kedavra and hold the wand steady (aim) for a few seconds while the green light (death) comes out and hits the intended victim. I would think that uttering another spell too quickly might negate the effects of the AK. I just believe it takes a few seconds of concentration to fully fire off an AK. By the time the spell hit Harry and started back at Voldemort, I think he would have been to startled to say anything but "Oh..... curse word" and then he was dead. I guess we can agree to disagree. :-)

T Vrana - Nov 13, 2006 11:05 am (#2887 of 2969)

"Oh..... curse word"

LOL, Choices!

Thom Matheson - Nov 13, 2006 6:12 pm (#2888 of 2969)

Haymoni, we have two other cases of rebound curses as a reference. Ron trying to turn Malfoy into a slug and Lockhart trying to erase Harry's memory. In both cases I don't think that there was any time add another incantation

Gerald Costales - Nov 13, 2006 8:22 pm (#2889 of 2969)

‘I just pictured him saying "Avada Kedavra" and then immediately thinking "Makus Horcruxus" - or whatever the incantation turns out to be - almost as if they were one in the same.’ haymoni

haymoni - Book 6, did seem to emphasis both ‘Wordless Magic’ and ‘Wandless Magic’ as possible options to the ‘Spoken Spell’ and the need for a ‘Wand’ to perform ‘Magic’. And I expect to see more of both ‘Wordless Magic’ and ‘Wandless Magic’ in Book 7.

But, I would have to agree with Choices ...

‘I would think that uttering another spell too quickly might negate the effects of the AK. I just believe it takes a few seconds of concentration to fully fire off an AK. By the time the spell hit Harry and started back at Voldemort, I think he would have been to startled to say anything but "Oh..... curse word" and then he was dead.’ (Vaporized? Right.) Choices

Choices - I must admit that I love the way you can describe some things; so that you can picture it. I also would agree that ‘Time matters in magic.’

But, what I’ve been trying to point out is that there should be some ‘other possibilities’ for that Night. Again, I love the way you can describe some things; so that you can picture it. This is going back several posts, but this is one possible picture of that Night and a possible ‘picture’ of the ‘Horcrux Making Process’.

Choices[/b] - Oct 28, 2006 6:05 pm (post #2706 of ... )

‘I personally do not think a piece of soul can be removed from the body except by saying the incantation used to make a Horcrux. I see it like Dumbledore placing his wand to his temple to remove a thought and put it in the pensieve. I believe Voldemort places his wand on his body (possibly over his heart) and removes the soul piece while saying the incantation, and then places it into the object he has chosen to make into a Horcrux.’

(Click on the following for the original post - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I must admit that after reading your description, that it became the way I came to ‘picture’ the removal of a ‘Soul Bit’ from a ‘Torn Soul’.

But, what ‘other possibilities’ for that Night might exist?

Essays

The Put-Outer and Magic on Privet Drive

by Cindysphynx

Dumbledore's Put-Outer is a magical device introduced in PS1, and it is unique as the only tool used to perform magic aside from wands. The Put-Outer also has the distinction of being the first magical tool introduced in the series:

[Dumbledore] found what he was looking for in his inside pocket. It seemed to be a silver cigarette lighter. He flicked it open, held it up in the air, and clicked it. The nearest street lamp went out with a little pop. He clicked it again - the next lamp flickered into darkness. Twelve times he clicked the Put-Outer, until the only lights left on the whole street were two tiny pinpricks in the distance, which were the eyes of the cat watching him. If anyone looked out of their window now, even beady-eyed Mrs. Dursley, they wouldn't be able to see anything that was happening down on the pavement. Dumbledore slipped the Put-Outer back inside his cloak and set off down the street toward number four, where he sat down on the wall next to the cat (PS1).

The Put-Outer raises a number of questions. Why does Dumbledore use a Put-Outer to extinguish the street lamps rather than simply using his wand? Is there something preventing Dumbledore from using his wand? Does JKR introduce the Put-Outer in PS1 because she does not yet wish to tell the reader about magic? Why does JKR, a master of inventing clever names like "Pensieve" and "Veritaserum", choose a conventional name like Put-Outer? Why has there been no mention of the Put-Outer since the opening chapter of the series?

(Source: Lexicon - Click on the following for the original Essay - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Now, this is the question I would like answered or discussed - ‘Why does Dumbledore use a Put-Outer to extinguish the street lamps rather than simply using his wand?’

Why? Well, picture this -

Lily’s voice: "Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!"
Voldemort: "Stand aside you silly girl ... stand aside now... ."
Lily: "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead --- "
Lily: "Not Harry! Please ... have mercy ... have mercy ... "

A shrill voice was laughing, the woman was screaming, and Harry knew no more. (page 179, PoA, American edition)

Suppose Voldemort had a ‘Magical Device’ similar to a ‘Put-Outer’ a ‘Soul-Outer’ ...

Voldemort AK’s Lily with a ‘Soul-Outer’ ready to extract a ‘Soul Bit’ from his ‘Torn Soul’ ...

A shrill voice was laughing, the woman was screaming - But, the AK REBOUNDED. ;-) GC

HungarianHorntail11 - Nov 13, 2006 9:09 pm (#2890 of 2969)

I think Slughorn would have mentioned such an item in his description to young Riddle, GC.

My vision of a torn soul bit is more like the way a lit candle lights an unlit one, except with dwindling results in the case of a Horcrux. Overall, you don't see an actual line where the separation occurred but there are two distinct bits.

wingardio leviosa - Nov 13, 2006 10:44 pm (#2891 of 2969)

I'm lucky because I do not believe that Harry is an Horcrux, so I don't have to do mirror-climbing to explain how The only one who can convince me is JKR, but she has shown a much better style insofar . Her plots are rich and convoluted but built out of many simple facts. When she needs a slightly more complex concept (Horcrux, time-turner, prophecy) she explains it at length and during more than one book. Now by the way DD -the 'explainer' - is gone. She has a lot of ground to cover in one book, so she isn't going to add unnecessary complications. If Harry has to be sacrificed, there are many simpler ways to accomplish the drama.

It is known that LV wanted to make an Horcrux after killing Harry. That would have been the 6th. With his body-soul, it would make seven anchors in this world, and he would become invincible. Probably he wanted to use the Gryffindor Sword, if he supposed it was by the Potters. This opens many possibilities for the plot, as the "James gave the Cloak to someone to carry the Sword to Hogwarts" theory. If that is true and if Harry could discover it in his GH visit, that'd be the reason to decide to go back to Hogwarts anyway, to be there before LV comes to claim the Sword again.

TheSaint - Nov 13, 2006 11:32 pm (#2892 of 2969)

Wasn't the bounced AK sort of a Wizard killing himself? It was Voldemort's own AK that killed him. I thought perhaps it had sort of a 'paradox effect,' and the house was destroyed that way.

Gerald Costales - Nov 14, 2006 6:14 am (#2893 of 2969)

Hagrid to Harry: "Some say he died. Codswallop, in my opinion. Dunno if he had enough human left in him to die." (PS4)

Dumbledore looked very intensely at Harry for a moment, and then said, "I have a theory, no more than that ... It is my belief that your scar hurts both when Lord Voldemort is near you, and when he is feeling a particularly strong surge of hatred."

"But ... why?"

"Because you and he are connected by the curse that failed," said Dumbledore. "That is no ordinary scar." (GF30)

Voldemort in the graveyard: "You know of course, that they have called this boy my downfall?" Voldemort said softly, his red eyes upon Harry, whose scar began to burn so fiercely that he almost screamed in agony. "You all know that on the night I lost my powers and my body, I tried to kill him. His mother died in the attempt to save him -- and unwittingly provided him with a protection I admit I had not foreseen... . I could not touch the boy."

Voldemort raised one of his long white fingers and put it very close to Harry's cheek. "His mother left upon him the traces of her sacrifice... . This is old magic, I should have remembered it, I was foolish to overlook it ... but no matter, I can touch him now." (GF33)

IMHO - Voldemort was planning to use Harry to make his ‘Sixth and Final Horcrux’. My guess is that the ‘Sixth Horcrux’ was to be ‘Gryffindor’s Sword’.

"His mother left upon him the traces of her sacrifice... . This is old magic, I should have remembered it, I was foolish to overlook it ... but no matter, I can touch him now." (GF33)

"Because you and he are connected by the curse that failed," said Dumbledore.

IMHO - Voldemort did not expect the AK that he shot at Harry to REBOUND.

"I miscalculated, my friends, I admit it. My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon myself. Aaah ... pain beyond pain, my friends; nothing could have prepared me for it. I was ripped from my body, I was less than spirit, less than the meanest ghost ... but still, I was alive. What I was, even I do not know ... I, who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality. You know my goal - to conquer death. And now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments worked ... for I had not been killed, though the curse should have done it. Nevertheless, I was as powerless as the weakest creature alive ... " (GF33)

" ... and it appeared that one or more of my experiments worked ... "

The ‘Soul-Outer’ is just a theory, another possible explanation for that Night.

Slughorn only said, ... ‘Killing rips the soul apart. The wizard intent upon creating a Horcrux would use the damage to his advantage.’ (page 498, HBP)

The ‘Soul-Outer’ is just another suggestion for extracting a ‘Soul Bit’ from a ‘Torn Soul’.

Because I had been confused as to - Why would Voldemort be laughing when he shot an AK’d at Harry?

. . A shrill voice was laughing, the woman was screaming -

And the ‘Soul-Outer’ was the theory I came up with to explain - Why Voldemort was laughing while AK’ing Harry.

But, the AK REBOUNDED.

PS This post looks like a X-Mas Tree. ;-) GC

Choices - Nov 14, 2006 9:55 am (#2894 of 2969)

Cindysphynx - Does JKR introduce the Put-Outer in PS1 because she does not yet wish to tell the reader about magic?

But the Put-Outer is magic. I believe it is the first magical device to which we are introduced. Dumbledore is in a Muggle neighborhood - he pulls out what appears to be a cigarette lighter - Muggles would pay no notice. Had he pulled out a wand, it would have been a different story.

As to why Voldemort was laughing as he prepared to AK Harry - he was about to wipe out the one who could prevent him from becoming immortal - the one destined by the prophecy to kill him. He was triumphant, victorious, about to be free of his one serious opponent. He was happy and his laughter echoed not only his happiness, but his joy of killing.

As to the "Soul-Outer" - that's pretty laughable, don't you think? JKR is a much better writer than to come up with a "soul-outer". If I read that in one of the HP books, it would make me groan and want to quit reading.

Gerald Costales - Nov 15, 2006 6:32 am (#2895 of 2969)

‘But the Put-Outer is magic. I believe it is the first magical device to which we are introduced. Dumbledore is in a Muggle neighborhood - he pulls out what appears to be a cigarette lighter - Muggles would pay no notice. Had he pulled out a wand, it would have been a different story.’ Choices

‘Muggles would pay no notice - he pulls out what appears to be a cigarette lighter ... ’

But, Muggles would pay no notice - if Dumbledore were Invisible either.

"How did you know---?"

"I don't need a cloak to become invisible," said Dumbledore gently. (PS, page 213)

I was disappointed in JKR's portrayal of Vampires at Slughorn’s X-Mas Party and I had problems with Dumbledore's actions while Harry had to force-feed him the Green Liquid in the Cave. But, I wasn’t necessarily disappointed in Book 7.

To make a Horcrux (with apologies to Emily Dickinson)

To make a Horcrux it takes a ‘Soul Bit’, one Artifact, and a Spell

One ‘Soul Bit’, Artifact, and a Spell.

But, first MURDER most EVIL do.

And a Snake will do,

If Swords are few.

PS I hope we can agree to disagree.

PPS There’s a whole thread on + Why did Dumbledore have James's cloak? ;-) GC

HungarianHorntail11 - Nov 15, 2006 4:56 pm (#2896 of 2969)

I don't have to do mirror-climbing to explain how - wingardio leviosa

Actually, it would be mirror climbing if I couldn't come up with quotes in the book that could read in the vein of HAH. I still stand by the most telling quote where DD tells Harry that Big V put a bit of himself into him. Might it be a soul-bit? Possibly.

Gerald Costales - Nov 16, 2006 5:43 am (#2897 of 2969)

" ... I still stand by the most telling quote where DD tells Harry that Big V put a bit of himself into him... " HungarianHorntail11

HH11 - Is this the quote you might be referring to?

. .Dumbledore looked very intensely at Harry for a moment, and then said, "I have a theory, no more than that ... It is my belief that your scar hurts both when Lord Voldemort is near you, and when he is feeling a particularly strong surge of hatred."

. ."But ... why?"

. ."Because you and he are connected by the curse that failed," said Dumbledore. "That is no ordinary scar." (GF30)

" ... Might it be a soul-bit?"

Depends on who you’re discussing the HAH theory with. All I read is -

"That is no ordinary scar." ;-) GC

Mattew Bates - Nov 16, 2006 9:45 am (#2898 of 2969)

Even if Harry is Horcrux-like, he may not be a full blown Horcrux. Suppose that while Voldemort was killing Lily, he subconsciously felt self-revulsion - on some level, he saw her actions as the sort that he wished his own mother had been willing to take for him. So the soul tear from that murder contained some of that self-revulsion, the tiniest bit of his conscience - maybe the last bit. When he was hit by the rebounding AK, the unexpected magic separated this soul-bit from his central soul. Because of the other Horcruxes it cannot cross over, but because of the self-revulsion it chooses not to stay with or rejoin the central soul. It instead chooses to stay with Harry in an attempt to help destroy Voldemort's central soul; a convoluted sort of self-destruction. So when the rest of the Horcruxes are gone and the central soul is separated from body, Harry's extra soul-bit will then choose to leave him in favor of crossing over. It can choose this because it was never magically sealed within his body.

HungarianHorntail11 - Nov 16, 2006 8:44 pm (#2899 of 2969)

Here you go, GC - taken from Post #2748:

‘Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?’ Harry said, thunderstruck.

‘It certainly seems so.’ From SS.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Nov 17, 2006 12:30 am (#2900 of 2969)

Congrats Mattew! That is the best theory I have heard in a long time!

100 points to your house!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Potteraholic Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:06 pm

wingardio leviosa - Nov 17, 2006 4:35 am (#2901 of 2969)

Good point, Matthew.

Perhaps that was the only tiny bit of LV's soul that is able to "withstand" love.

Even he must have been human once...

Mattew Bates - Nov 17, 2006 10:34 am (#2902 of 2969)

Thank you, TBE. With all those cunning Slytherins and brave Gryffindors out there, contemplative Ravenclaw needs all the help it can get.

To add a point, I think that the pain Harry and Voldemort feel from proximity and possession is, in part, a result of this soulbit's resistance to rejoining the central soul, and the central soul's resistance to absorbing a bit of self whose conscience has likely grown through its contact with Harry.

Betelgeuse Black - Nov 18, 2006 6:20 pm (#2903 of 2969)

Hello all,

I have been resistant to the idea that a Horcrux or more is hidden at Hogwarts since I could not figure out how LV could have gotten into the castle to hide it. Well, I think I know how now.

It occurred to me that the vanishing cabinet that Draco repaired in HBP was whole and working prior to Peeves and nearly headless Nick smashing it in CoS. LV could have entered into Hogwarts undetected and hidden whatever item he used if he could use the cabinets.

Now, I'm convinced that at least one Horcrux will be found at Hogwarts whether it's the cup, tiara or whatever.

Betelgeuse

Choices - Nov 18, 2006 6:29 pm (#2904 of 2969)

Who's to say Voldemort didn't enter Hogwarts under an invisibility cloak, place a Horcrux (like the Hufflepuff cup) in one of the trophy cases (we are told that room is never locked) and slip back out again? There must be many ways he could have slipped in (including the Vanishing Cabinet) and hidden one of his Horcruxes.

Steve Newton - Nov 18, 2006 6:37 pm (#2905 of 2969)

In the old HBP read along it was mentioned that Riddle worked at Borgin and Burke's and had free access to the cabinet. He could have made many trips to Hogwarts. I can't remember where it was when Nick asked Peeves to knock it over and broke it.

S.E. Jones - Nov 18, 2006 10:58 pm (#2906 of 2969)

It was somewhere other than the RoR. It's broken when Harry gets in trouble with Filch for tracking mud into the castle. Shortly after that is when the Basilisk attacks Mrs. Norris. It's the beginning of "The Deathday Party", Chapter 8.

All it really says is that the cabinet was somewhere upstairs in a classroom that is directly over Filch's office:

Amazed at his luck, Harry sped out of the office, up the corridor, and back upstairs.....

Nearly Headless Nick came gliding out of a classroom. Behind him, Harry could see the wreckage of a large black-and-gold cabinet that appeared to have been dropped from a great height.

"I persuaded Peeves to crash it right over Filch's office," said Nick eagerly.

I think it was somewhere else, other than the RoR, later when Fred and George stuck Montague in it.

TheSaint - Nov 19, 2006 1:21 am (#2907 of 2969)

'Gringotts is the safest place in the world fer anything you want to keep safe - 'cept maybe Hogwarts.'

Wonder if Riddle has a vault?

Phelim Mcintyre - Nov 19, 2006 4:37 am (#2908 of 2969)

Also, the broken cabinet was not in the Room of Requirement in Order of the Phoenix as one of the Inquisitor Squad got shoved in it. But I think the cabinet has played its role in the novels.

Steve Newton - Nov 19, 2006 5:14 am (#2909 of 2969)

Whether or not the cabinet was in the ROR Riddle may have had easy access to Hogwarts. I'm sure he knew his way around enough to find wherever he wanted to go.

Betelgeuse Black - Nov 19, 2006 6:43 am (#2910 of 2969)

I can't imagine that DD would allow LV to enter the castle at will. DD did not trust LV at all and I would think that there would be extra protection to prevent him access to Hogwarts. I got this impression from HBP and DD's interview of LV for the teaching job.

LV really wanted to have free access to the castle and he also wanted to be able to recruit young Death Nibblers. I don't think he had the access he wanted or needed to Hogwarts or why would he go ask DD for a job?

School security is very important. If you have a known murderer/psychopath who dearly wants to wander the halls of the school, wouldn't a headmaster/headmistress be obligated to prevent access to the best of his/her ability? I have to believe that LV could not just walk in the front doors or pass the gates to the grounds in an invisibility cloak. I believe he would need access through the secret tunnels or vanishing cabinet.

As SE Jones said, the vanishing cabinet was whole and undamaged prior to Peeves dropping it in CoS, above Filch's office. Draco must have moved the damaged cabinet to the RoR when he got an opportunity. And as Steve Newton said, the other cabinet (which Harry hid in, but didn't close the door on) was in Borgin and Burkes. LV would have checked it out and figured out what it did.

Anyway, my point was that I didn't feel that LV would have been able to access Hogwarts until I guessed he would know about the cabinets. Others may feel otherwise. I felt that in book 7, Harry would spend a great deal of time at Hogwarts and now I feel like I know why Harry will be there.

Betelgeuse

wingardio leviosa - Nov 19, 2006 7:02 am (#2911 of 2969)

The 'cabinet backdoor' - if reserved to and only known by LV - makes a lot of sense, because it bypasses all protections that pile up on the Castle. Expanding a bit: the cabinet - and some of its properties - were known to the staff (at the time of CoS, at least). It was a vanishing cabinet (whatever it means exactly and what use they have for it, is not clear). Quite probably the staff did not know its association with the second cabinet (the one at B&B). There must have been a way to deactivate or activate the link, otherwise it would have been detected as a security hole.

There are other access way that we heard little of. When the Twins give the Marauders' Map to Harry, a pair of the several secret passageways/tunnels there are described as 'blocked and caved in'. Perhaps there's some back-story on those, too.

HungarianHorntail11 - Nov 19, 2006 3:56 pm (#2912 of 2969)

I find it very feasible that one of the Horcruxes lies in the trophy room. It was a bit odd that Ron had to spend time polishing them and remembered some of them. (Unless, he remembers it, considers it a Horcrux and returns to find that he was wrong about the trophies - still, there is a tie-in.) Nevertheless, it makes sense that the DEs would spend time trying to establish a round-about way to enter HW, bypassing the protective charms. I think Big V, though not intent on touching them, would still want access to all of his Horcruxes.

T Vrana - Nov 19, 2006 6:44 pm (#2913 of 2969)

I don't think Malfoy moved the cabinet to the RoR. I would think that Filch, or someone, would have moved it there after a student was trapped and injured escaping it.

Also, Malfoy took credit for thinking of the Vanishing Cabinet. Was it a lie? LV already knew about it?

TheSaint - Nov 20, 2006 12:52 am (#2914 of 2969)

I don't think Voldie knew about it. Seems Malfoy figured it out and Voldie put him in charge of his own plan, sort of hoping for his destruction all be it. I don't think Voldemort knew about the connection prior or the DE would have entered much sooner.

Betelgeuse Black - Nov 20, 2006 8:09 am (#2915 of 2969)

"I don't think Malfoy moved the cabinet to the RoR. I would think that Filch, or someone, would have moved it there after a student was trapped and injured escaping it. " T. Vrana

I disagree. If Draco figured out the vanishing cabinet from talking with Montague about his adventure trapped in the passage, he would need a place to hide the cabinet while he tried to fix it. If Filch or someone else wanted to get rid of it, they would have put in somewhere out of everyone's reach. Remember that all the stuff in the RoR where the vanishing cabinet was stored was stuff that was "hidden" because someone didn't want to get in trouble. Harry said "I need somewhere to hide something" and the room obliged. That must have been what a person would ask for to get into that particular room.

"Also, Malfoy took credit for thinking of the Vanishing Cabinet. Was it a lie? LV already knew about it? " T. Vrana

Well, this is a bit of a problem to explain. I reasoned a scenario but I'm not sure how effectively it explains the situation.

Draco must have approached LV with the idea. LV would have acted like he didn't know about the cabinets. LV was trying to punish the Malfoys so he let Draco take on the task with the idea that Draco would fail and get caught. If Draco succeeded, then so much the better. The cabinets would be fixed and the task would be completed to his satisfaction.

OK, maybe it needs work but I could envision it.

Betelgeuse

TheSaint - Nov 20, 2006 9:11 am (#2916 of 2969)

If he knew about the cabinets, why wait to send in the DE? They could have gotten Harry at any point.

T Vrana - Nov 20, 2006 9:37 am (#2917 of 2969)

Remember that all the stuff in the RoR where the vanishing cabinet was stored was stuff that was "hidden" because someone didn't want to get in trouble.

Don't have a book handy, but I had thought that it was full of hidden stuff and broken stuff. It thought of it in more general terms, 'I need a place to hide it' (away from students) as you pointed out.

Why leave a dangerous cabinet out that a student nearly died trying exit? Didn't anyone, Filch, teacher, notice it was missing if Malfoy moved it?

When was the cabinet broken? Was it POA?

S.E. Jones - Nov 20, 2006 10:03 am (#2918 of 2969)

It was broken in CoS (I quoted the passage here). It was still, broken as it was, in a classroom of some sort in OP as "[Fred and George] forced [Montague] headfirst into that Vanishing Cabinet on the first floor" (OP28). I agree that Filch was probably told to get rid of the cabinet (as in store it someplace) after a student was so injured getting out of it. I could see Filch also needing a place to store the cabinet and it end up in the RoR.

T Vrana - Nov 20, 2006 10:12 am (#2919 of 2969)

Thanks, SE, am without books and it is Monday...

So Voldy was still Vapormort and the cabinet was already broken. The DEs could not have used it to get Harry (forget who asked this).

TomProffitt - Nov 20, 2006 10:44 am (#2920 of 2969)

When I consider the lengths Tom Riddle went to protect two of the Horcruxes (the locket & the ring) I'm reluctant to conclude that he hid one in Hogwarts. I believe that part of Riddle's interest in Hogwarts was to take things out of it, not to put things in it.

Harry will likely find clues that will lead him to other Horcruxes while he is at Hogwarts, but I don't believe that he will find any Horcruxes there.

TheSaint - Nov 20, 2006 11:29 am (#2921 of 2969)

So Voldy was still Vapormort and the cabinet was already broken. The DEs could not have used it to get Harry (forget who asked this).

But he has not been Vapormort for two 'years' now. He could have used it anytime since then.

Steve Newton - Nov 20, 2006 11:30 am (#2922 of 2969)

Except that it was broken and he had no ready way to get to it to fix it.

T Vrana - Nov 20, 2006 11:31 am (#2923 of 2969)

Saint- It has been broken. Malfoy had to fix it.

edit- cross posted with Steve

TheSaint - Nov 20, 2006 12:20 pm (#2924 of 2969)

Are you thinking it was originally broken due to a previous attempt by Voldemort? I have always wondered what Hagrid meant by 'Didn't dare try takin' the school, not jus' then, anyway.' Thinking the other may have been in B and B's for this reason?

S.E. Jones - Nov 20, 2006 12:26 pm (#2925 of 2969)

TheSaint --Are you thinking it was originally broken due to a previous attempt by Voldemort?--

It was broken by Peeves in CoS.

It is interesting that Voldemort didn't use it in some way to attack Hogwarts prior to being vapored at Godric's Hollow, if he did know about it.

TheSaint - Nov 20, 2006 12:40 pm (#2926 of 2969)

Yes, my point. My thought is he did not know about it. Draco found out due to the unfortunate incident involving his friend.

I still wonder what Hagrid meant though.

wingardio leviosa - Nov 30, 2006 6:08 am (#2927 of 2969)

One point I noticed just recently, while posting about RAB, and I wonder if someone else marked it.

Suspect Hogwarts-founder-Horcrux objects all come in pairs!

Obviously, the fake locket that was in the cave and the true one (or the one in GP12)

Hufflepuff's cup and the silver cup with the Black's crest. This silver piece gets really too much exposure to be for nothing.

A tiara in the RoR, another (goblin-made) tiara belonging to Molly's grand-aunt.

Now all those objects have their own magical powers. Maybe the 'poor copies' have some similar (but reduced) powers? Are they there maybe so that the trio can understand some key fact about the founders’ relics and use it (or the copies themselves) in the hunt?

rambkowalczyk - Nov 30, 2006 8:54 am (#2928 of 2969)

Previous to book 6, I had my own theory as to why Harry shared some of Tom's characteristics that I never got around to posting but that recap that Gerald did about 90 posts ago got me thinking.

First Voldemort says there were more than one plan to achieve immortality and that one of them worked.

What I originally thought was that Voldemort's plan to immortality involved total and absolute possession of another body, say that of a baby. One way to achieve this would be to use a Dementor to remove the soul of said child, then use some type of magic to insert his soul/memories into said child. The obvious advantage to Voldemort is that people would think that he died while in reality he would be hiding in another body allowing him to operate in secret. By choosing Harry, or whom the prophecy foretold he might even think that he beat the prophecy because people would think a baby defeated the Dark Lord and technically one could say the body of the baby did defeat the body of the Dark Lord.

This would explain why he would have spared Lily. So she could maintain the pretense of caring for him. (It wouldn't occur to Voldemort that Lily would recognize that her son was different).

Obviously it didn't go as planned. Lily's sacrifice made Harry's soul more stronger and not likely to be dislodged by any magical means. Furthermore Voldemort could not put his entire soul (or what was left of it) into Harry. Only a piece was put in making it look like a Horcrux.

Soul Search - Nov 30, 2006 9:30 am (#2929 of 2969)

rambkowalczyk, interesting thought. The idea explains some things, too.

I thought it a bit much in OotP that Dumbledore seems surprised that Harry turned out like he did. If Dumbledore has suspicions that some part of Voldemort got into Harry, that would explain his statement. Dumbledore does say, in CoS, that Harry did get Parseltongue, but never explains what else or how.

Dumbledore doesn't, however, suggest that Harry or his scar is a Horcrux. You may be on to a better explanation.

HungarianHorntail11 - Dec 1, 2006 2:00 pm (#2930 of 2969)

Wingardio, that sounds interesting. A good test would be the diary (though I know it is not a founder relic, we do know it was a Horcrux). Were you able to come up with one to pair the diary with?

Pinky Prime - Dec 3, 2006 7:20 pm (#2931 of 2969)

Interesting Soul Search.

Have we speculated enough about the relationship between Voldemort and his Horcruxes? HungarianHorntaill sorry have more questions than answers...

How would Voldemort interact with them directly (each one being different and/or separate from the other)?

Did the Cup Horcrux invoke the cave safeguards as an animate object? "Don't trust anything that can think for itself especially if you don't know where it puts its brain" Arthur Weasley CoS. That diary sure had a mind of its own.

or was it just a prelaid magic alarm and security system? or did each new death of people wandering in that turned into Inferi make the Horcrux stronger over the years thus strengthening the Horcrux and making it more animate like diary? Did anyone else have to drink from the cup that would possibly have made the locket stronger so that it hid itself, throwing everyone else off with a R.A.B. note as an animate thinking object? Do other Horcruxes work this way?

Do the other Horcruxes (other than the possibility of Nagini) have special powers that need to be far away from the original host?

What happens when Voldemort touches one of his Horcruxes? (Nagini?)

Haven't been on this thread in a while and I'm eager for any reply about this...

Pinky Prime - Dec 4, 2006 1:42 pm (#2932 of 2969)

The Diary had its own control over its security (The Basilisk).

LL Wordy - Dec 5, 2006 12:19 pm (#2933 of 2969)

JKR indicated that we may be learning more about why some people become ghosts, etc. I think it’s a wizards’ choice prior to death, of what they want to "be" upon death. Maybe those who become ghosts are those who've been humiliated or want to "get even", etc. Someone like Voldemort wanted immortality and chose to make Horcruxes to have that sort of a "life" after his "death". And others, whether consciously or subconsciously, chose death (body, mind and soul)... as death's but the next great adventure.

I then think the making of Horcruxes can only be done prior to that first "death", and not anytime thereafter. I'm getting the impression that a ghost can't "die" (no longer be a ghost) after becoming one, even if they wanted to. This would rule out Nagini being a Horcrux for me then... as I don't believe any further Horcruxes can be made, even from the reborn Voldemort, as it's after his first "death".

In regards to the reborn Voldemort... he felt pain beyond pain that night in Godric's Hollow... pain that he never seemed to have felt before. He would've known the pain of a soul piece being torn from his body upon him creating a Horcrux, yet this pain seemed different... I think it was his mind that tore from his body then (maybe with the remaining dead piece of soul too). I like to call this part of Voldemort, "MindMort".

We know that Wormtail performed the magic Voldemort could not in order to give Voldemort that rudimentary, baby-like body. A soul piece can survive without food, etc. while in it's Horcrux object. As Voldemort says in the graveyard, he was less than a ghost after GH, and we know that ghosts can't eat. Since a potion was made with Nagini's venom and unicorn blood to feed this baby-like being, I therefore believe that the magic Wormtail did to create that baby-like being was to combine "MindMort" with one of his soul Horcruxes (now "used").

I also believe then that a Horcrux was "used" to put the Voldemort face on the back of Quirrell. It needed unicorn blood to survive. If Quirrell were just possessed, Voldemort's face wouldn't have been on the back of his head. "MindMort" left Quirrell to die after Harry's touch caused the damage to Quirrell. If a Horcrux was "used" as I believe, this "used" soul Horcrux was left to die also. "MindMort" went back to Albania.

Also, I do have a theory that I haven't really seen/read on how I believe Harry could be the last Horcrux. I'd love to share it if anyone wishes to hear/read it. With that said though... I don't believe Harry has to die at all... as Voldemort/Quirrell says... there's no good or evil, just power, and those too weak to seek it. Voldemort as "MindMort" is a weak being and can't do anything (was helpless in Albania for 10-years before Quirrell came along, and then I believe he "used" a Horcrux). I believe if all the other Horcruxes are "used"/destroyed along with the reborn Voldemort, than Voldemort as MindMort would remain a weak, powerless being... forever. Wouldn't that be worse then death to Voldemort?

T Vrana - Dec 5, 2006 3:46 pm (#2934 of 2969)

I think the pain LV felt was the destruction of his body from the rebounded AK which destroyed an entire house. As I understand it, LV's soul was torn from his body and wandered. Mindmort, as you put it, was LV's soul, anchored on this side of the veil by his Horcruxes. He didn't die. He lost his body. The soul that remained possessed Quirrell, and it was Quirrell who I believe needed the unicorn blood to survive the possession. Remember that all LV's hosts lived a very short time. His face appearing is part of the possession. Why would a Horcrux soul bit create an LV face on Quirrell's head, but not LV's 'main' soul?

Nearly Headless Nick said that he chose not to pass through the veil out of fear of death. He chose not to move on.

EDIT-

Slughorn explaining how a Horcrux works, when talking about creating just one Horcrux

"Well you split your soul, you see," said Slughorn, "and hide part of it in an object outside the body. Then, even if one's body is attacked or destroyed, one cannot die, for part of the soul remains earthbound and undamaged. But of course existence in such a form..."

DD later tells Harry that there are six Horcruxes because:

"...The seventh part of his soul, however maimed, resides in his regenerated body..."

This tells me his 'main' soul, the maimed and torn remnant, that is, was what survived the AK and is now in the new LV body.

LL Wordy - Dec 6, 2006 11:20 am (#2935 of 2969)

I believe a normal human being is of one body, mind and soul... but Voldemort's soul is in pieces.

Dumbledore says in HBP (US-PB C23/P509) ‘, that while his soul may be damaged beyond repair, his brain and his magical powers remain intact.’ I'll continue to believe it's Voldemort's mind that tore from his body that fateful night... likely with the main piece of soul that remained in him. Although, I believe that main piece doesn't seem to be of any use to him anymore... it may not be able to go through the "veil" as people may say, until all the others do.

I believe it's the mind that does the possessing, not the soul. Harry didn't gain Voldemort's face when he was possessed at the MoM fight (OotP), nor do I believe any of the snakes/small creatures those 10-years in Albania gained a face... these possessions were short as you said, but then why and when can a face appear? Once Voldemort's face was on Quirrell, I don't think Quirrell was really being "possessed" any longer. Quirrell knew what he was doing all along (unlike Ginny when she was being possessed). I do not believe it was Quirrell needing the unicorns blood to survive, as he doesn't seem all too weak to teach or get through the protections of the stone... he does however refer to Voldemort being weak though, just like how the baby-like being was weak. I don't believe anyone was "feeding" MindMort and any soul Horcrux those 10-years in Albania, nor do we read of any other unicorn dying... just possession. Upon his rebirth, Voldemort summarized a lot of info to his DE's... I believe it is Voldemort's mind reminiscing and doing the talking... not his soul.

I believe when Slughorn says "one cannot die, for part of the soul remains earthbound and undamaged", that he's referring to the pieces of the soul Voldemort made Horcruxes out of, not necessarily the piece of soul that remained in Voldemort. I don't believe the reborn Voldemort could even "be", if it weren't for his mind. Voldemort's soul isn't causing all the havoc in the Muggle and wizarding worlds... it's Voldemort's mind along with his memories at the time of his first "death" which is enabling him to continue with his plans. His mind is wandering around to find and be able to use the 6 soul Horcruxes that are earthbound.

The young Tom Riddle from the diary didn't know much about Harry, other than what Ginny wrote to him about. In COS (US PB C17/P316), Tom says to Harry ‘Twice - in your past, in my future - we have met. And twice I failed to kill you. How did you survive? Tell me everything.’ I don't believe MindMort ever connected to this soul Horcrux. It was the ‘mind’ information written in the diary and Ginny that made this Horcrux come alive as 16-yr old Tom Riddle.

I don't believe a soul is damaging to others at all. Of course, the protections on a soul Horcrux object is damaging, if not fatal. If one would think further on when Harry's scar actually hurts... it doesn't seem to hurt Harry when he's touching the diary, it doesn't hurt when young Tom Riddle is right next to him in the chamber, nor does it hurt him those 10-years at the Dursleys' (that is if his scar, or what the scar may contain, is a Horcrux as I believe). It seems that it is when MindMort is present or when MindMort has strong feelings that Harry's scar hurts... not when just another soul Horcrux is present.

I can only conclude that Voldemort's mind had to have torn from his body that night... not just the remaining soul piece.

About becoming a ghost... we can just add "not want to move on" to the humiliation and "getting even" reasoning. I think Nearly Headless Nick was humiliated when he died though... as it took so many times to sever his head, albeit leaving it still somewhat attached, which seems to bother him as a ghost too... that he can't get into the Headless hunt because of it. Moaning Myrtle says she was humiliated along with her being determined to haunt Olive Hornby. Maybe that's something too... "determined"... reminds me of the 3-D's to Apparating.

T Vrana - Dec 6, 2006 1:51 pm (#2936 of 2969)

If Quirrell was strong, why did he die when LV fled his body? I believe the face appeared over time with Quirrell's loss of self and LV's growth in power. The unicorn blood sustained both Quirrell and fed the 'growing' LV. The possession of Quirrell was quite long and allowed LV to gain strength. The turban did not appear until the Sorting, so I assume LV's face appeared as his strength grew over time, and he sapped some of Quirrell's strength (life force).

EDIT- I do not think the Horcrux soul bits are 'complete', that is, we have a soul which is comprised of our soul/knowledge/intellect. When we die (in HP universe) our soul passes through the veil. I assume the knowledge and intellect do as well. LV's soul bits are tiny pieces, not pieces equal to his main soul, or with his intellect. Note that the victim of a Dementor's Curse is seen as vacant (Snape's classroom wall), not a thinking being with no soul. The bits of soul anchor the main soul here. The soul can't be destroyed, IMHO, so LV still has his scarred main soul, and when all the bits are freed from their Horcruxes, and LV's body is once again destroyed, his soul will pass through the veil.

LL Wordy - Dec 7, 2006 8:20 am (#2937 of 2969)

As with most quotes in the books, they can accommodate more than one point of view. We seem to be using the same words of canon to back up our theories.

We know Quirrell was possessed by Voldemort (I believe off and on just like the young Tom Riddle possessed Ginny). I believe Voldemort’s mind and a soul Horcrux became the face on the back of Quirrell’s head when Quirrell failed to retrieve the stone while the stone was at Gringotts. (Harry was able to shake Quirrell’s hand in the Leaky Cauldron). Quirrell was very much his strong self when Harry seen and started talking to him at the last protection of the stone at Hogwarts-the Mirror or Erised (when Harry thought it was Snape he’d have to confront). I got the impression from that conversation that Quirrell had been acting the entire time like the quivering, scared, and stuttering teacher just so no one would suspect him. I don’t believe that Quirrell was possessed while teaching nor under the Imperius curse. In the end and why Quirrell died, I understood it was because Quirrell was sharing his soul with Voldemort (Voldemort’s mind existed also as it was doing the talking on the back side of Quirrell’s head). Quirrell/Voldemort couldn’t touch Harry due to the protection invoked upon him when his mother died for him. Quirrell was weak here, yes, because of touching Harry, I don’t believe he was weak anytime before this to have Quirrell needing the unicorn blood to survive. I believe it was Voldemort needing the blood to survive just like the centaur Firenze indicates. Voldemort as MindMort left Quirrell because he knew it was pointless to remain in Quirrell’s dying body, a ‘used’ soul Horcrux dying also.

Odds are that the victim of the Dementor’s kiss in Snape’s DADA classroom picture didn’t have a soul Horcrux. We both believe the soul Horcruxes most likely anchors the main soul, I’m just going one step further to say it anchors the mind too. I don’t think it’s all that unlikely, even Dumbledore says ‘his brain and his magical powers remain intact’, making it sound like the mind is separate from the soul. I believe also that the main/original soul piece is of no use though, ‘dead weight’ as one would say, because of the backfired AK; and that it may not be able to go through the veil yet because of the other soul Horcruxes. I think Dumbledore is referring to Voldemort’s main soul as ‘damaged beyond repair’, and Slughorn is referring to the soul Horcruxes as ‘earthbound and undamaged’.

I’m thinking the soul contains abilities that one doesn’t know they have or comes naturally, may be hereditarily, orphaned Tom Riddle knew how to talk to snakes before he even knew he was a wizard just like Harry (if Harry’s scar is a Horcrux that is). Harry has to use his mind and needs to work very hard in his classes to do charms, create potions, etc., even creating his Patronus. I think it more likely that the soul contains the ‘powerfulness’ behind what’s being done (e.g., if Harry’s scar is a Horcrux then maybe that’s why Harry’s Patronus is so powerful, or why he was able to ‘win’ as you could say when the brother wands met in the cemetery). I’m not really theorizing as to the size of his main soul piece or the size of each of the soul Horcruxes.

I like to theorize that when all of the other soul pieces are of no use (‘used) or have been destroyed, except for Harry’s scar, then Voldemort is just MindMort, ‘,powerless as the weakest creature alive’ (GOF-US PB C33/P653). He won’t be able to get at or use the last of his Horcruxes, because of Harry’s ability to love, feel, hope, etc. Voldemort would be vanquished, ‘existence in such a form..." as Slughorn says. Only Harry would know when he was around because of his scar. Harry may have a choice though as maybe his scar "contains" part of the last Horcrux object and it can be removed and destroyed (maybe even by a Muggle doctor!) because there are no evil curses protecting it... leaving a "normal" scar. All of the soul pieces could go through the veil then (MindMort may not be able to "die" or go through the veil though). I think the scar may contain a piece of the last Horcrux object because of Harry not being scanned upon entering Hogwarts in his 6th year, not having a Healer from St. Mungo’s see him upon being picked up by Hagrid from GH and brought to the Dursleys', along with the fact that the Dementors did try to do the kiss on him in PoA (which Fudge was surprised about).

T Vrana - Dec 7, 2006 10:14 am (#2938 of 2969)

I got the impression from that conversation that Quirrell had been acting the entire time like the quivering, scared, and stuttering teacher just so no one would suspect him. I don’t believe that Quirrell was possessed while teaching nor under the Imperius curse.

Yes, he was acting. But, yes, also, I think LV was growing stronger and taking more and more of Quirrell’s 'life-force' (which I will define in a minute) and thus the face began to appear. I do think he was possessed all through the year, not off and on, because he started wearing the turban at some time before the Sorting, to hide the face on the back of his head. Quirrell also admits at the end that LV is with him all the time. Don't have the book handy, but I'll look it up later for the exact wording.

Quirrell was able to touch Harry at the Leaky Cauldron. So, either LV was not yet strong enough for the touch to hurt Quirrell, or LV had not yet possessed him. I don't think touching Harry killed Quirrell. I think Quirrell was so damaged by sharing his body with LV, and so much of his own 'life-force' had been drained.

Life-force, for the HP world, I would define as the ability for a soul to remain attached to a living body. So, the animals which do not have a strong life force, would suffer a short possession and die. (Think rabbits, they can literally die of fright, a gift, I assume, for animals who are likely to become prey). Humans and predators seem to have a stronger life force. Ginny was losing hers to Tom and nearly died. Quirrell was sapped of his and died when LV fled. Nick has no life-force, he's dead, but he has a soul and memory etc.

Soul I think is the mind (memory, intent, ability) and soul. Nick, for instance, has memory. His soul and mind are one and stuck on this side because he chose not to move on. I don't think making a Horcrux separates the mind and soul.

DD knows how Horcruxes work, and told Harry he had four more to get. He also thought Nagini was made into a Horcrux. While he may be wrong about part two, I don't think he's wrong about how a Horcrux works. Why would he tell Harry he had 4 more to go before he could kill LV? If they are 'used up' Harry will waste time, more people will die, Harry may die when he could have defeated LV instead of looking for Horcruxes that are no longer there.

I do think Harry may be a Horcrux or Horcrux like, but I can't agree with the Mindmort because it just does not make sense to me. I can't envisage a mind that exists without a soul. I agree the mind is anchored here, too, as part of LV's soul. His main soul. The anchors are just bits. Picture a human body. Main body has thought, respiration, heart beat etc. Cut off a finger, a piece of the mind does not go with the finger. I picture LV's soul bits like that. They do not take all the characteristics of the main LV soul, just a small piece of soul.

DD also said LV's maimed soul is in his body, how did Mindmort get the maimed soul to join him? DD didn't say the preserved pieces (from the Horcruxes)were in his regenerated body.

I do wonder about LV's possession of Harry. They must have a connection (scar Horcrux) for LV to be able to possess him. I don't think LV, now that he has a body of his own, can possess just anyone.

Choices - Dec 7, 2006 11:11 am (#2939 of 2969)

Quirrell intimates to Harry (down in the room with the Mirror of Erised) that Voldemort began to physically possess him after he failed to get the Sorcerer’s Stone from Gringotts, saying that Voldemort needed to keep a closer eye on him.

LL Wordy - Dec 7, 2006 12:28 pm (#2940 of 2969)

Quirrell could touch Harry without harm in the Leaky Cauldron simply (I think), because Voldemort (MindMort or main soul) was not with him at that specific time. Quirrell was not possessed in the Leaky Cauldron, for the reason that Quirrell knew what he was doing (acting the quivering/scared teacher) and because Harry’s scar did not hurt.

I don’t believe the head on the back of Quirrell was using any of Quirrell’s ‘life force’, Voldemort was getting stronger because of the unicorn blood. Quirrell talks to Voldemort while by the mirror and says something like, but Master you’re too weak. Quirrell did not seem weak at all.

Voldemort ordered Quirrell to get the stone and he tried to (I don’t see Quirrell being weak here), saying something like, what is this dark magic, when touching Harry had caused damage. Voldemort ordered Quirrell then to kill Harry, I don’t think it’s so far fetched to have Quirrell die because of Harry’s touch, there were repercussions to Quirrell touching Harry. Quirrell was plenty strong as he followed through with Voldemort’s orders so well. Dumbledore says to Harry (PS/SS-US C17/P299) ‘Quirrell, sharing his soul with Voldemort, could not touch you for this reason.’ Dumbledore also says in PS/SS (US PB C17/P298) ‘,if he is delayed again, and again, why he may never return to power.’ Voldemort summarizes the events (including the stone ordeal) to his DE’s saying that after that fell through he ‘,was left as weak as ever I had been’ (GOF-US PB C23/P654).

I do believe Dumbledore knows how a Horcrux works in general, not by experience of course, and likely not by getting a complete account of the whole process from someone who actually had one. However, having more than one Horcrux is new to everyone, it doesn’t sound like it was ever done before. Dumbledore says himself about speculating and assuming a lot upon viewing the memories. Harry is even surprised that Dumbledore asks him for his take on things prior to him seeing some of the memories. Dumbledore seems only sure about a few of the Horcruxes. I’m thinking a few twists to the plot here by JKR, just like she always does and it seems that we now expect it of her. In the end, this would make the search and destruction task a bit ‘simpler’ for Harry, maybe even a bit more realistic to be covered (I guess ‘uncovered’) in just 1-book. I have to think that reference to six Horcruxes is to say there are/were six in total and that when Dumbledore talks of there being four more, that there are 4 that he’s not positive on, not entirely accounted for... a summary of Dumbledore’s theory. Dumbledore shares his 6-Horcruxes theory immediately after seeing Slughorn’s complete memory. There wasn’t much time to discuss or contemplate any further. Since Dumbledore and Harry never got to the point in their ‘classes’ to discuss when or how a Horcrux would ever be used, I can’t rule out that there aren’t any of them already ‘used’.

Oh, I think the Secrecy Sensor will come into play in regards to the Horcruxes in book 7. Also, that maybe the cup isn’t a Horcrux (just a trophy kept and used by Voldemort similar to what he kept of the other orphan kids). Then believing all of the soul Horcruxes are something of his own/heritage. His wand had to have had some serious protections on it to have survived the backfired AK in GH. He was also head boy and a prefect as said numerous times, where's his prefect’s badge?

Choices - Dec 7, 2006 6:28 pm (#2941 of 2969)

Tom never had a Prefect's badge because he was not a Prefect. He was Head Boy in his 7th year (1944-1945) and got an award for special services to the school, but he was never a Prefect.

T Vrana - Dec 7, 2006 7:32 pm (#2942 of 2969)

LL- DD tells Harry LV "...left Quirrell to die." And that "‘Quirrell, sharing his soul with Voldemort, could not touch you for this reason.’

So we know:

1) Quirrell can't touch Harry while sharing his soul with LV

2) Quirrell was alive when LV fled

DD said LV left Quirrell to die. This implies LV's action caused the death. Why else phrase it that way? How could LV's staying have saved Quirrell if it was touching Harry that killed Quirrell? DD says LV shows as little mercy for his followers as his enemies, so it is LV's abandonment that killed Quirrell. If Quirrell was strong, why did Quirrell die when the 'weak' LV left him? How did weak LV leaving Quirrell amount to showing no mercy? Because, I think, Quirrell was sharing his soul and was 'spiritually' weak (had given so much of himself, like Ginny to the Diary, that he did not have enough of his own soul left to live once LV departed). While LV had grown stronger soul/spirit/life-force wise he was still bodily weak. This is what Quirrell meant, I think, when he said LV was too weak to deal with Harry. But LV's power as a 'soul' is very strong. He is able to punish and frighten Quirrell (the stronger bodily, but weak in soul).

While Jo does surprise us, she has not ever presented magical information that is completely at odds with what she has told us, especially from DD. And while DD makes mistakes, he does seem to know how a Horcrux works. He tells Harry

"The seventh part of his soul, however maimed, resides inside his regenerated body. That was the part of him that lived a spectral existence for so many years during his exile; without that, he has no self at all..."

Sorry, but no mention of a separate mind. Without the seventh piece of soul, the one that survived the AK, that 'lived' a spectral existence, LV has no self at all.

LL Wordy - Dec 8, 2006 8:26 am (#2943 of 2969)

Again, we seem to be using the same words as canon to back up our points of view. I don’t believe I’m filling in any blanks, just interpreting what is written.

Dumbledore saying Voldemort left Quirrell to die doesn’t imply that it was Voldemort’s actions that caused Quirrell’s death. Quirrell’s hands were blistering before his eyes, upon just touching Harry. ‘Harry could see they looked burned, raw, red and shiny.’ Voldemort ordered Quirrell to touch Harry yet again, to kill him, this in itself shows that Voldemort had no mercy for his followers. Voldemort didn’t stop his demands of Quirrell when Quirrell was hurt; Voldemort continued to order Quirrell to kill Harry, to incur even more damage! Harry then touched Quirrell’s face, his arm, any exposed skin from the way it sounded. Voldemort showed no mercy to Quirrell here again by not seeking medical attention for Quirrell. If Quirrell’s wounds were like burns as indicated, then burns are fatal without medical attention (my spouse’s grandfather died from serious burns to his face and arms and he was at a burn clinic on morphine). Dumbledore however helped Harry and was worried about him surviving. Voldemort on the other hand just left Quirrell to die because Quirrell’s body was going to die. I see Quirrell being ‘weak’ because of his inability to stand up to Voldemort and ‘dying for the cause of good’. If Quirrell thinks he’s weak it’s because of Voldemort degrading him, how easy it was for Voldemort to bend young, foolish Quirrell to fit his needs. Voldemort was the one who told Quirrell... there's no good or evil, just power, and those too weak to seek it. In Voldemort’s eyes, Quirrell would’ve been ‘weak’ if he hadn’t tried to help Voldemort seek the power he wanted.

I’m not disagreeing that the 7th piece ‘was the part of him that lived a spectral existence’, spectral meaning a disturbing image, haunting, ghostly apparition, his soul. I’m agreeing that the 7th maimed, ‘damaged beyond repair’ piece of his main soul exists in his new body, just along with a new ‘undamaged’ piece. The ‘was the part’ words of that same quote you're referring to lead me to believe there could be another part, not that it rules it out. How close is that quote in the book to the HBP-US C23/P509 quote I indicated where Dumbledore says ‘his brain and his magical powers remain intact’? Dumbledore does mention a mind, along with the fact that it is ‘intact’, meaning it remains sound, entire, or uninjured; not impaired in any way. Having one body, mind and soul is not so far-fetched in the HP world, it’s just literal.

I may be mistaken about the prefect badge but I thought I read Dumbledore saying something to Harry that the teachers were somewhat disappointed with Tom working at Borgin and Burkes out of Hogwarts because of him excelling in school and that he was a school prefect and head boy. I see on the Lexicon that Tom being a prefect isn’t mentioned. I’ll have to find that page and reread it just to make sure though. Does the head boy have a badge then?

T Vrana - Dec 8, 2006 8:54 am (#2944 of 2969)

LL wordy- I think we'll have to agree to disagree. You are taking some of DD's words as literal, that the mind is separates because he said it was intact, but choosing to ignore his clear statement to Harry that he thinks there are four Horcruxes based on how he knows Horcruxes work. You trust and take literally the 'intact mind' statement, but do not trust that DD knows how Horcruxes are used. You trust that DD knows LV's soul is maimed, but in his body, but not what he says about Horcrux use. If DD knew that LV's mind was intact (you agree), but separate (you assume), and that LV's soul is maimed (you agree), why would he not know that LV needed to use a Horcrux to regenerate, and why would he not tell Harry? If some of DD's information on Horcruxes is faulty, then we have to question all of it, not pick and choose what we want to believe to fit a theory.

If DD was saying the mind is separate, I do not understand his statement that without his maimed bit of soul LV "has no self at all". That seems to contradict entirely the idea that a Mindmort can exist.

Holly T. - Dec 8, 2006 9:15 am (#2945 of 2969)

Does the head boy have a badge then?

Yes, because Fred and George made Percy's say "Bighead Boy."

LL Wordy - Dec 8, 2006 12:23 pm (#2946 of 2969)

I'll agree... that we'll have to disagree. We both "literally" referred to words and phrases in the books many times. No harm done... it's OK to have different points of view on this as the words can be taken in many ways. JKR was very careful about the wording of the prophecy... I believe she was careful in almost everything she wrote in this series. The words are canon and it's just a matter of how one interprets it.

T Vrana has me wondering... maybe T Vrana could've been hired by JKR (if not be JKR) to visibly discredit this plausible theory to other HP fans(?!). I'd love to know what others actually think of my theory since T Vrana is ruling it out.

To reply somewhat to the last message and as I said before, I do believe ("trust" as you say) that Dumbledore knows how Horcruxes are used. I just don't recall JKR sharing with us (via Dumbledore or any other wizard), on when or how a Horcrux would be "used" in the six books we've read so far. I'd think that's part of the plot line and will be shared with us in the next book. HBP finished with us questioning Horcruxes. If that was shared with us, then Harry's mission in Book 7 wouldn't look so overwhelming and complicated. We've all been wondering how JKR was going to write about Harry finding and destroying 4 more Horcruxes besides vanquishing the reborn Voldemort in just 1-book when Dumbledore has spent years searching for some of the Horcruxes... this theory is possible. Also, I'm not ignoring that Dumbledore thinks there's 4-Horcruxes remaining, as I believe those 4-Horcruxes have not been positively identified also... whether they're "used" or not. I also believe self = One body, mind and soul (albeit Voldemort's soul is in pieces).

My other theory on the Horcrux objects being something of Voldemort's own or part of his heritage still stands then. Thank you Holly T... it sounds like Voldemort would've gotten a head boy badge. (I still want to verify where I thought prefect and head boy was indicated though).

HungarianHorntail11 - Dec 8, 2006 3:50 pm (#2947 of 2969)

Remember, too, that Harry has a lot of help on his side. Who is to say that it must be Harry who will destroy all of the Horcruxes - after all, DD did take care of the ring. Harry's greatest role may be in getting everyone to work together fluidly. We've already seen examples of this in its infancy stage.

T Vrana - Dec 8, 2006 5:05 pm (#2948 of 2969)

LL wordy- I do think, via DD and Slughorn, she has told us how they are used, to anchor the main soul here. Once Harry destroys the four remaining, he can defeat LV, who will only have a main soul and no anchors.

I'm now confused. Above you mention that you believe DD, that there are 4 Horcruxes left to find. I thought your theory began with the idea that there are not four left, as LV has used two to regenerate? And if you believe DD knows how Horcruxes work, why do you think he is mistaken that Nagini could be a Horcrux?

Confused, but not employed by or as JKR (LOL at the thought!)

EDIT- DD has only been searching, at most, since CoS (when Harry told him about the diary), 4 years, he wasn't searching full time, and had no help. He also spent much of his time, over the years (the 4 plus before CoS) just gathering the info he shared with Harry. Harry has a headstart thanks to all of DD's prior work.

Choices - Dec 8, 2006 5:38 pm (#2949 of 2969)

LL Wordy, picture an anchor on a ship..... .you enter a harbor or cove, throw the anchor overboard to keep the ship from leaving that spot. When you are ready to leave, you haul up the anchor and sail off. The anchor is still there on the ship - you didn't use it up - it isn't a one time use item. Horcruxes are the same in that they anchor the main soul to this plain of existence and they can be used over and over - they are not one time use items either. One Horcrux would keep a wizard from dying and going on, but Voldemort made six Horcruxes to be sure that if some are found and destroyed, he would still have others to anchor his main soul to this earth. We know the diary and the ring Horcruxes have been destroyed, but there are still four Horcruxes out there for Harry to find and destroy.

T Vrana - Dec 9, 2006 6:36 am (#2950 of 2969)

I agree Choices, but the six also had significance as it gave LV 7 soul parts, in his thinking, a magically significant number.

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Choices - Dec 9, 2006 9:25 am (#2951 of 2969)

I agree T - Voldemort liked the idea of having his soul divided into 7 parts because seven is the most magical number. Thus he made six Horcruxes and retained the 7th soul piece inside himself.

S.E. Jones - Dec 10, 2006 2:41 am (#2952 of 2969)

Choices --Tom never had a Prefect's badge because he was not a Prefect. He was Head Boy in his 7th year (1944-1945) and got an award for special services to the school, but he was never a Prefect.--

Tom was a prefect, actually.

A boy of about sixteen entered, taking off his pointed hat. A silver prefect's badge was glinting on his chest. (description of Riddle entering Dippet's office; CoS13, p243, US)

"It was my word against Hagrid's, Harry. Well, you can imagine how it looked to old Armando Dippet. On the one hand, Tom Riddle, poor but brilliant, parentless but so brave, school prefect, model student..... " (Riddle speaking; CoS17, p311, US)

"Look sharp, Tom," said Slughorn, turning around and finding him still present. "You don't want to be caught out of bed out of hours, and you a prefect..." (HBP17, p370, US)

"Nearly everybody expected spectacular things from Tom Riddle, prefect, Head Boy, winner of the Award for Special Service to the School." (Dumbledore speaking; HBP20, p430-431, US)

I'm sure there are other references.

That being said, I seriously doubt that his old prefect's badge is a Horcrux.

Choices - Dec 10, 2006 9:35 am (#2953 of 2969)

Thanks for the correction S.E. Jones. I was basing my erroneous assumption on the Lexicon description of Tom Riddle. It mentions nothing about him being a Prefect, only a Head Boy. Maybe an addition to his profile is needed. :-)

Gerald Costales - Dec 10, 2006 12:24 pm (#2954 of 2969)

This may content similar ideas expressed by T Vrana & Choices. And, It's just JM2K on the topic.

(re: post #2933)

‘In regards to the reborn Voldemort... he felt pain beyond pain that night in Godric's Hollow... pain that he never seemed to have felt before. He would've known the pain of a soul piece being torn from his body upon him creating a Horcrux, yet this pain seemed different... I think it was his mind that tore from his body then (maybe with the remaining dead piece of soul too). I like to call this part of Voldemort, "MindMort". LL Wordy*

‘I also believe then that a Horcrux was "used" to put the Voldemort face on the back of Quirrell.’**

.* LL Wordy - When anyone recalls an event, I doubt most people can relive that moment and make an accurate assessment of that situation and the feelings that one experienced. I’m fairly certain that part of Voldemort’s address to his Death Eaters was merely hyperbole, puffery, and exaggeration and should not be considered as a medical or scientific evaluation of that moment’s pain that can ranked the most painful experience of Voldemort’s life as compared with the other moments of pain that Voldemort has experienced throughout his life...

‘His mother left upon him the traces of her sacrifice ... This is old magic, I should have remembered it, I was foolish to overlook it ... but no matter, I can touch him now ... ’

‘I miscalculated, my friends, I admit it. My curse was deflected by the woman’s foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon myself. Aaah ... pain beyond pain, my friends; nothing could have prepared me for it. I was ripped from my body, I was less than spirit, less than the meanest*** ghost ... but still, I was alive. What I was even I do not know... ’ (GF33)

(Source - Quotes by and about Lord Voldemort (Tom Marvolo Riddle) - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

(IMHO - ‘meanest’ is being used in it’s older usage - ‘smallest ghost’)***

definition: mean -adjective, -er, -est.

4. inferior in grade, quality, or character: no mean reward.

5. low in status, rank, or dignity: mean servitors.

6. of little importance or consequence: mean little details.

7. *** small, humiliated, or ashamed: You should feel mean for being so stingy.

(Source - Dictionary.com - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

. ** I disagree that a Horcrux was used on Quirrell. I at this point I really don’t have an explanation of why Voldemort’s face was on the back of Quirrell’s head.

(re: post #2935)

‘I believe it's the mind that does the possessing, not the soul. Harry didn't gain Voldemort's face when he was possessed at the MoM fight (OotP), nor do I believe any of the snakes/small creatures those 10-years in Albania gained a face... these possessions were short as you said, but then why and when can a face appear? Once Voldemort's face was on Quirrell, I don't think Quirrell was really being "possessed" any longer. Quirrell knew what he was doing all along (unlike Ginny when she was being possessed).

But, - Would Ginny have eventually had Voldemort’s face? I suspect it was the Soul Bit from the Diary that possessed Ginny. The Tom Riddle Soul Bit probably contained the Mind of Tom Riddle. Because, - Doesn’t the Book say that the Diary held the 16 year old memory of Tom Riddle?

IMHO, I believe Ginny’s Soul remained intact and was being overpowered by Tom Riddle’s Soul Bit or possessed by Tom as some would phrase it.

I can agree that the Voldemort’s Mind was included in the Soul Bit; the remnant of Voldemort’s Soul; the Main Soul that survived the Rebounded Curse at Godric’s Hollow.

More later. ;-) GC
Edited to correct some minor errors.

me and my shadow 813 - Dec 10, 2006 5:57 pm (#2955 of 2969)

Hello -- regarding recent posts, interesting exchange about brain/mind...

it seems diary Tom, in calling himself a 'memory', could be only a static portion of 'mind', i.e. a memory is a held moment of the past and not aware of the present or future (although we cannot know this as being true of all Horcruxes). This differs from Quirrell/Vold in that the portion of Voldemort within Quirrell was the "parent" portion so to speak and the active/mentally-astute "soul bit". This "parent" portion of Voldemort, as DD has said, is still exceptionally intelligent and basically a walking mind, albeit with very little soul and a black heart.

this reminds me of something Arthur Weasley said on at least one occasion and seems foreshadowing: (paraphrase) "don't trust anything if you can't see where its brain is".

any thoughts?

me and my shadow 813 - Dec 10, 2006 7:49 pm (#2956 of 2969)

been back-reading on this thread... in #2931 (I think) Pinky Prime also mentioned Weasley "brain" quote -- it's probably been mentioned plenty but I wonder how it can be applied to Harry's potential dilemmas with destroying Horcruxes. If Nagini is a Horcrux, she will be similar to Quirrell in the sense that two minds will be at work. Edit: not that I am implying Quirrell incident was a Horcrux.

Pinky also mentioned diary Tom "had control over his security". It seems perhaps diary Tom's security was part of the protective curse on the Horcrux, and I wonder if other Horcruxes will have "animated" pieces of Voldemort as part of the curse protection that present their own set of challenges.

It's probably been said many times here but it seems possible that DD had to deal with an "animated" Voldemort when breaking into the ring, and of course it's possible that he was having a battle with Voldemort upon drinking the potion in the cave. I wonder if, had anyone else been in the Chamber of Secrets (besides nearly-possessed Ginny) would they have been able to see diary Tom or was it all occurring in Harry's mind as was DD's experience in the cave...

Gerald Costales - Dec 11, 2006 6:28 am (#2957 of 2969)

"it seems possible that DD had to deal with an "animated" Voldemort when breaking into the ring, and of course it's possible that he was having a battle with Voldemort upon drinking the potion in the cave. I wonder if, had anyone else been in the Chamber of Secrets (besides nearly-possessed Ginny) would they have been able to see diary Tom or was it all occurring in Harry's mind as was DD's experience in the cave... " me and my shadow 813

mams 813 - I always assumed that the Ring was protected by some type of Elemental Fire Magic; which explained the condition of Dumbledore's damaged hand.

The muttering, that Dumbledore did while drinking the Green Liquid, suggested to me that Dumbledore was reliving a past experience not a Virtual Battle. I would conclude that Dumbledore was reliving a past experience simply because Dumbledore wasn't lashing out, moving, etc. trying to fight some mental enemy.

My question would be - Was Dumbledore reliving his past experience or the past experience of someone being tortured by Voldemort/Tom Riddle? (R.A.B., one of Tom's fellow orphans, etc.) ;-) GC

LL Wordy - Dec 11, 2006 9:12 am (#2958 of 2969)

Thanks S.E. Jones for finding all those references to Tom Riddle being a prefect... I knew there were a few of them. It's because I believe Voldemort in the end used all of his own possessions or family heirlooms to create Horcruxes that I wonder where the prefect badge and Head Boy badge is at. That's somewhat of a separate theory of mine though and is based on my wondering why Voldemort's wand survived the rebounded AK when almost everything else was destroyed.

Since the written words are canon, I hope people see that I’m not making up anything in my "MindMort" and "used" Horcrux theory... I’m just putting a few things together. Yes, I’m calling Voldemort’s ‘brain’ as Dumbledore calls it, ‘MindMort’, but I’m not coming up with something entirely different like a ‘life-force’ or trying to explain Horcruxes like a ships anchor. With that, I don’t believe JK Rowling has indicated anywhere yet that a soul Horcrux could be ‘used’ repeatedly, she hasn’t even shared with us when or how Voldemort would ‘use’ a Horcrux. ‘Use’ of a Horcrux definitely appears to be a one time shot though as they can and have been ‘destroyed’ (the diary would’ve been ‘used’ too, with the ‘mind’ information written in the diary along with Ginny’s mind). Dumbledore says the main soul piece left of Voldemort was ‘maimed’, ‘damaged beyond repair’. Maimed meaning to disable or disfigure, usually by depriving of the use of a body part, to make imperfect or defective; impair. That soul piece is pretty much ‘dead’ in my opinion and is of no use. It still exists yes, because of the other "undamaged" Horcruxes, and because of Voldemort’s brain still being intact (remaining sound, uninjured, not impaired). For those saying the mind is attached if not part of the main soul, why can’t people reverse that, and say it is the mind that exists with all the ‘dead’ pieces of the soul? Therefore becoming a "self" with a body upon combining those with an "undamaged" Horcrux.

I apologize for any confusion T Vrana. My meaning of 4-Horcruxes left to find is the fact that there is 4-remaining Horcruxes to identify. Whether some are ‘used’ as I believe or not, Harry and his friends have to confirm the status of their existence (whether the soul piece therein has been destroyed or ‘used). Harry will need the help of his friends and allies just as he always has, but not necessarily to have to destroy any of the soul Horcruxes, they’ll help him properly identify them and come up with ways of which they can be destroyed if they’re not already. I’m thinking Secrecy Sensor and ROR here, where did the objects, etc. from Quirrell’s office and classroom go upon his demise? If Harry’s scar is a Horcrux, the Secrecy Sensor may likely sense that also. We know Voldemort is using his wand (graveyard scene in GOF). Voldemort’s wand had to have had some serious protections on it to have not been destroyed like almost everything else by the rebounded AK. I’m starting to believe it was a Horcrux then as they tend to have some serious enchantments protecting them from being destroyed. I believe Voldemort’s wand as a Horcrux was ‘used’ by Wormtail then to create Voldemort’s rudimentary body needing potion to survive (giving the reborn Voldemort an undamaged soul piece to go with all the other ‘maimed’ and damaged ones that are of no use).

The information given to us by Dumbledore and Slughorn is how a Horcrux is created (not in complete detail yet though) and why someone would make a Horcrux (its purpose), we do not know yet when a Horcrux would be needed or ‘used’ by the wizard who created it.

Yes, Dumbledore would’ve been gathering information for many, many years. Dumbledore found Voldemort untrustworthy from the very beginning and tried to keep an eye on him, for the sake of others safety not just to figure out what Tom was up to. I’m unsure when Hepzibah’s old house elf or Morfin dies to pinpoint those memory timeframes but do know the death’s of Hepzibah and Tom Riddle’s father and grandparents was when Tom Riddle was younger. Dumbledore would’ve known about Tom Riddle’s father and his family dying just because of Morfin being brought into the wizarding courts and prosecuted (Dumbledore was likely involved in the Wizengamot at the time). We’re unsure when Dumbledore obtained Slughorn’s first altered memory but from that memory, he knew Voldemort knows about Horcruxes and that he likely had created one. Dumbledore didn’t physically go out and try to find/obtain (to destroy) any of the soul Horcruxes until, I believe, the end of SS/PS, because of Dumbledore’s understanding of Horcruxes and how they work and the fact that we hear from Dumbledore that Quirrell had been sharing his soul with Voldemort. The diary confirmed Dumbledore’s theory of Voldemort creating Horcruxes and that he had created more than one (as one was ‘used’ by Quirrell sharing his soul with Voldemort). He needed Slughorn’s full memory to see if there was any information in it for him to figure out just how many Horcruxes were created. We know that young Tom Riddle is a great manipulator. That entire conversation was manipulated and that Tom already knows about Horcruxes but is wondering what would happen to a wizard who created more than one.

I do really love this forum. I feel canon proves my theory with every response I make. Me and My Shadows acknowledgement of Arthur Weasley always reiterating to his kids to never trust anything if you can't see where it's brain is, even helps my theory... Thanks! The brain (MindMort) can, and likely is, separate from the soul... Self = one body, mind and soul (literally).

T Vrana - Dec 11, 2006 9:59 am (#2959 of 2969)

LL Wordy- If LV needed to 'use' Horcruxes to regenerate, surely DD would have told Harry this. Why have Harry searching for Horcruxes to destroy that do no exist because they are already used? I think the soul, while it can be maimed, can't be destroyed. It either exists on this side or the other side of the veil. LV doesn't actually 'use' the Horcruxes at all. They are like tethers that anchor his main soul on this side of the veil. If he must use one every time he is AK’d, then he would have to keep creating Horcruxes, or he would eventually die. But, according to your theory, he can't make any more Horcruxes, because his main soul is maimed. Here again, DD indicated that he could still make Horcruxes, and you have indicated you believe DD.

By you theory, LV is not immortal, but he thinks he is, so I think he knows he's not using up Horcruxes. Otherwise, according to your theory, LV is only a couple of AKs away from mortal, because he's down to two undamaged Horcruxes and can't create anymore. No need for Harry to even look for Horcruxes, what a waste of time. Just 'kill' LV and force him to use a Horcrux to regenerate. 'Kill' him again, now he has no more Horcruxes. Kill him. But that is not what DD indicated. He indicated that Harry must find and destroy four Horcruxes, then LV will be mortal again.

That soul piece is pretty much ‘dead’ in my opinion and is of no use.

No, not dead, maimed. Souls can't die, people die, souls do not, and DD didn't say it was useless or dead, just maimed. A maimed person is not useless or dead, neither is a maimed soul. DD was quite clear that there were originally 7 pieces planned, that two had been destroyed (diary, ring), and that ONE piece, the original maimed piece, the final piece, the seventh piece, resides in LV's body and is the last one to be destroyed. If it was already dead and useless, why did DD say it was the last to be destroyed?

No book handy, but will provide canon evidence later.

T Vrana - Dec 11, 2006 10:30 am (#2960 of 2969)

Too late to edit, but

LV's soul is maimed from killing, splitting his soul and making Horcruxes, not from 'dying' (being vaporized by the rebounding AK). The whole point of making Horcruxes is to make sure you don't die when someone tries to kill you. The soul, IMO, can't be maimed from outside, by a curse, spell etc., and can only be maimed by a person's own choices and actions. No one can maim your soul except you. How horrible to think someone else could maim your soul...You can kill someone, you can't maim their soul. LV maimed his own soul with his choices, the AK didn't do that.

Choices - Dec 11, 2006 11:09 am (#2961 of 2969)

Good thoughts, T Vrana. I like your ideas about only you being able to maim your soul - no one else can.

LL Wordy - Dec 11, 2006 2:16 pm (#2962 of 2969)

Exactly... he is, as you say, just a couple AK's away from being mortal. He doesn't know when his Horcruxes are destroyed by someone else (ring and possibly the locket), unless someone tells him (Diary). I understood Voldemort was very upset with the diary being used and destroyed... because he only has a limited number of Horcruxes. If he were working at the school, he could've let the Basilisk out himself (preserving the diary Horcrux as long as he wanted). I thought I read, he's as close to being immortal as one can be... but not that he "is" actually immortal... he has Horcruxes, once they're gone, they're gone. Dumbledore wants the fact Harry knows of and will be looking for the Horcruxes to be kept a "secret". This'll give them the element of surprise on Voldemort when he thinks the Horcruxes exist when they don't... he may take more chances in the final fight as he thinks he has more than he does. This theory is how I believe some of the plot-line will come about in the final book as we all think one book isn't enough to find/destroy 4 Horcruxes and the reborn Voldemort when Dumbledore took years to find just 2 of them (receiving a "maimed" hand destroying one of them and incurring bodily damage trying to retrieve the other).

A maimed person(?)... maimed (disabled/disfigured) refers to a specific body part... of course the whole person is not useless or dead... he could just have a bum leg... or hand!! Like Dumbledore having a "maimed" hand, which was caused by someone else’s doing... the curse on the ring Horcrux. The soul Horcrux in the diary was "maimed" by someone else... Harry, with a basilisk fang. It's funny how we see this so differently... the word means disabled, depriving the use of, impair, defective. The main soul piece may not necessarily be "dead" as I said previously but it is definitely "useless". The main soul piece does reside in Voldemort's reborn body, along with all the other "maimed" pieces and the one undamaged soul piece "used" to create his body... his current body to be the last to be destroyed because of the undamaged soul piece within it.

I was thinking the soul (and mind) doesn't die in Voldemort's case only... because he has a limited number of Horcruxes. Am I understanding what you're trying to say that any and all souls can't die? When a wizard who doesn't have a Horcrux dies... whether killed or by old age... you don't think his soul dies (with his body and mind)? What would you call going through the veil or to the other side then?

Disagreeing about what caused Voldemort to have a "maimed" main soul piece reminds me of our disagreement about what caused Quirrell to die (the burn-like fatal wounds upon him touching Harry and vice versa; or the fact that Voldemort left him). Voldemort's soul split upon killing/creating Horcruxes, etc. causing other appearance changes, but it wasn't "maimed" until the rebounded AK.

T Vrana - Dec 11, 2006 4:06 pm (#2963 of 2969)

The main soul piece may not necessarily be "dead" as I said previously but it is definitely "useless".

No, it is not definitely useless. Your theory assumes it is.

A maimed person(?)... maimed (disabled/disfigured) refers to a specific body part... of course the whole person is not useless or dead

Exactly!! Nor is the soul useless or dead because it is maimed/damaged. And you can use maimed to refer to a person. e.g. Joe was in a car accident. Was he killed? No but he was maimed (permanently injured).

Yes, LV has a limited number of Horcruxes because he has created a limited number, and no, he's not happy when they are destroyed (diary), and he doesn't know the ring has been destroyed, but, he would definitely know if he was using them up, and if he were using them up, he's hardly immortal or anything close. And yet he tells his followers he has taken steps to become immortal. But if he has to use a Horcrux every time he gets AK’d, and he can't create any more Horcruxes, he's only a limited number (2 by your theory, 4 by his estimation) from death.

We have no canon that says an AK can maim a soul. We have no canon that any outside force can maim a soul. We have DD's words that LV has maimed his own soul.

On maiming his soul. DD:

"Horcruxes in the plural, Harry, which I do not believe any other wizard has ever had. Yet it fitted: Lord Voldemort has seemed to grow less human with the passing years, and the transformation he has undergone seemed to me to be only explicable if his soul was mutilated beyond the realm of what we might call 'usual evil'..."

Mutilated by unusual evil, making several Horcruxes, not getting hit with a rebounding AK.

By your theory Lily has a maimed soul because she was AK’d?

but it wasn't "maimed" until the rebounded AK

Of course it was! How else does one maim a soul other than the horrible things he has done? Outside forces can't maim a soul. Humans, magical or not, IMO, can't destroy or maim another's soul.

The main soul piece does reside in Voldemort's reborn body, along with all the other "maimed" pieces and the one undamaged soul piece "used" to create his body... his current body to be the last to be destroyed because of the undamaged soul piece within it.

DD's own words:

"But firstly, no, Harry, not seven Horcruxes: six. The seventh part of his soul, however maimed, resides inside his regenerated body. That was the part of him that lived a spectral existence for so many years during his exile; without that he has no self at all. That seventh piece of soul will be the last that anybody wishing to kill Voldemort must attack- the piece that lives in his body."

Not the pieces, the piece. The seventh piece, alone, in his body.

In order for LV to be immortal or really close, as DD mentions, the Horcruxes would need to be secret. If secret, he would be immortal as he could not be killed. He would keep coming back.

By your theory LV could be defeated without knowing about the Horcruxes. One need only kill him over and over until his Horcruxes run out.

But LV thinks he is immortal because he thinks the Horcruxes are secret and no matter how many times he is AK’d, he thinks he'll keep coming back because his Horcruxes are intact. He is not immortal because DD figures it out. The ONLY way to kill LV is to destroy his Horcruxes first, then go after part #7, and destroy that last, as DD points out.

me and my shadow 813 - Dec 11, 2006 5:10 pm (#2964 of 2969)

Totally agree, T Vrana. On a tangent, it may be important to remember (not for this particular debate) Dementors have been shown as an external force that rips/takes/affects one's soul - with the person not making a clear cut choice and being an apparent "victim" of the external force.

T Vrana - Dec 11, 2006 5:16 pm (#2965 of 2969)

M&M shadow- Yes, but they suck out your soul. No mention of maiming or destruction, just, separation. I assume the soul lives on in a kind of hopeless void..... .horrible.

me and my shadow 813 - Dec 11, 2006 6:01 pm (#2966 of 2969)

Agreed, T Vrana. Difference between splitting and flat out high jacking is undeniable.

To Gerald -- thanks for your post. I agree that there was a fire curse on the ring, however I meant the possibility of more than one curse, as we saw in getting to the locket (i.e. boat, Inferi, not being able to penetrate the basin liquid). So curse is probably the wrong term- rather, Obstacle.

Regarding what DD experienced upon drinking the potion, it sure has been debated and I agree with your theory(ies) about the tortured kids or a childhood Tom trauma. However, for me it still seems possible and would be a great story if each Horcrux was encasing not just an intangible "soul bit" but one that came to life and fought for its life. I do agree with you that DD's behaviour did not reflect this scenario, unless in the vision Voldemort was in possession of whatever it is DD's Boggart would manifest as...

me and my shadow 813 - Dec 11, 2006 7:22 pm (#2967 of 2969)

I keep missing the edit time allotment...

To Gerald continued -- Additionally, we might keep in mind that whatever DD experienced drinking the basin potion may not have been placed there by Voldemort. RAB could have cursed the liquid intending it for Voldemort's return, since RAB seems to have already penetrated the basin. I know many have posted that the experience was the tortured kids or Tom himself or one of DD's traumas, but it could be otherwise. We have no reason to assume, since canon tells us the basin was previously compromised# and the note in the locket was addressed to the Dark Lord, that DD's experience of the green potion was Voldemort's doing.

#unless it was RAB's job to deposit the locket in the basin which seems implausible

Any thoughts?

T Vrana - Dec 11, 2006 7:37 pm (#2968 of 2969)

I had posted some time back that I thought the potion must be LV's as I think the protection for the locket would require the basin to refill.

1) The potion made DD thirsty, but would not allow the goblet to hold water, so the lake water was the only thing available, and this brought out the Inferi to dispose of the interloping Horcrux thief.

2) DD said that LV would want to question said thief to determine why said thief was so determined, and to discover, I think, who else he might have told.

3) If a solo wizard made it to the basin, drank a bunch of potion, fell over, crawled to the lake to quench his thirst and was dragged into the lake by the Inferi, but, the basin did not refill, the Horcrux would be less protected, possibly unprotected, and a second wizard could more easily take the Horcrux. So, I think, since LV is planning for eternity, the basin would refill. We know the magic exists, Harry uses a refilling spell to fill Sluggy's wine bottles in Hagrid's cabin.

Kip Carter - Dec 11, 2006 8:43 pm (#2969 of 2969)

With the number of post reaching the maximum allowed, I have closed out and renamed this thread and started a new thread, + Horcruxes, to continue the discussion. Have fun!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Potteraholic Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:51 am

Kip Carter - Dec 11, 2006 7:42 pm
Edited Sep 26, 2007 3:58 am

With the release of Book Six slightly less than seventeen months ago (July 15, 2005), one of the chapters (Twenty-Three - Horcruxes) generated a huge amount of discussion to the point that one of our members, dizzy lizzy, suggested a new thread with the following comment, "I've seen some rather imaginative and good ideas regarding Horcruxes and I am thinking they deserve a thread of there own. There seems to be two or three separate places that are discussing Horcruxes at the moment." Now that thread is reaching its maximum number of posts.

This new thread continues where the old thread, now named -- Horcruxes (17 Jul 05 to 11 Dec 06), left off.

Even though much has been present, I want this new thread to not be confined to only new issues. Feel free to review the old thread with an idea of what has been discussed; however even if your thought has been thoroughly discussed, bring up the thought again because others may not be aware of what has been analyzed and there could be new opinions or ideas that create a complete new chain of thought. Today alone and within the last fourteen hours, there have been twelve new posts on the old thread, starting with Gerald Costales' long Dec 11, 2006 6:28 am post, followed by a number of posts by LL Wordy, T Vrana, Choices, and me and my shadow 813. These five, along with Host S.E. Jones, have carried the old thread over the last few days.

Are you ready to jump into the discussion? The new thread is now in your hands. Have fun!

Note: I would like to remind you that this is a discussion thread, not a thread of final decisions. It appears that some feel the necessity to drive home their ideas with extremely long and detailed messages to solidify their view of how they see the Horcruxes as a part of the Harry Potter World. These long drawn-out posts seem to discourage others from participating or possibly looked at as messages too involved to really read and react. That's just my two knuts on the subject and I feel that I can approach that "extremely long and detailed messages" with candor, being that I do have a habit of doing it also ; however that is one of the perks afforded to the manager.

me and my shadow 813 - Dec 11, 2006 9:04 pm (#1 of 1297)

Since this is a new thread, I'll pick up here by referring to the previous post. I mentioned it may not be a sure thing that Voldemort was responsible for the green potion in the cave. RAB might have made it intended for Vold. In response...

T Vrana said:

I had posted some time back that I thought the potion must be LV's as I think the protection for the locket would require the basin to refill.

1) The potion made DD thirsty, but would not allow the goblet to hold water, so the lake water was the only thing available, and this brought out the Inferi to dispose of the interloping Horcrux thief.

2) DD said that LV would want to question said thief to determine why said thief was so determined, and to discover, I think, who else he might have told.

3) If a solo wizard made it to the basin, drank a bunch of potion, fell over, crawled to the lake to quench his thirst and was dragged into the lake by the Inferi, but, the basin did not refill, the Horcrux would be less protected, possibly unprotected, and a second wizard could more easily take the Horcrux. So, I think, since LV is planning for eternity, the basin would refill. We know the magic exists, Harry uses a refilling spell to fill Sluggy's wine bottles in Hagrid's cabin

------

Thanks, T Vrana. That's a sound argument. My thinking is that your points 1 and 2 might contradict one another since if Voldemort wanted to question said thief he wouldn't be able to if they were "disposed of" as an Inferi (sp?). Also, I am one who believes the lake to be Draught of Living Death (and thus "DD is alive" theory). Also, I'm not convinced of the "refilling basin" theory since we're shown in canon of DD grabbing the locket at the bottom of the basin and specifically no mention of it being refilled (to some a JKR strategic maneuver, to others a clue, I guess).

HungarianHorntail11 - Dec 12, 2006 6:40 am (#2 of 1297)

I don't think the basin refilled. I don't have the book handy but I remember DD retrieving the locket from an empty basin. Big V would have wanted it to be retrievable even though he may not have had intentions of doing so. If it refilled, nothing but a goblet could have gotten through.

T Vrana - Dec 12, 2006 9:53 am (#3 of 1297)

Must clarify. The basin would not refill immediately. The locket must be retrievable. Something would set it off. Perhaps time, perhaps the boats return, perhaps the Inferi settling back down. But leaving the locket unprotected makes no sense if you are planning for eternity, and you are planning for your spells to work. Drink. Thirst. 'Sleep'. Hang in the Lake with the Inferi. If this happened 3x, with the drinker only making it through 4 goblets (as DD did, I think), 4th intruder gets a locket. LV should assume anyone who might be suspicious of the cave, might also tell his friends before going.

M&M shadow- I agree the lake is Draught of living death, that DD may not be properly dead, and RAB is in the lake, having consumed lake water and been dragged, clutching the locket, into the lake. That's why Harry's 'Accio' produced a response. It was the Horcrux trying to be 'Accio'd' but clutched in the hand of RAB, it pulled the body to the surface. This also accomplishes what DD thought it would, keeping the trespassing wizard available for questioning.

If the Draught works that way, of course..(we do have examples of witches and wizards 'suspended', without need for food, water, respiration etc.....Petrification by basilisk.)

Thom Matheson - Dec 12, 2006 12:55 pm (#4 of 1297)

I just can't do it again.

T Vrana - Dec 12, 2006 12:58 pm (#5 of 1297)

Lightweight...

me and my shadow 813 - Dec 12, 2006 3:17 pm (#6 of 1297)

So the Inferi wouldn't actually drown the thief because of DoLD. That works for me. And once Vold returned to the Cave he could reverse the DoLD spell and question the thief. That works, too. And, as we truly have no way of knowing if and when the basin refills, I can see your reasoning that Vold would want it to refill eventually. And since, as you said, DD couldn't drink beyond four goblets and there were 12 total, the thief wouldn't have been able to finish anyway and would be in the lake. This line of thinking sounds plausible. Thanks, T Vrana. It brings up another point, if you're so inclined... If RAB is in the lake, did Kreacher just hop back into the boat and return to #12GP? Why didn't he stop the Inferi? I like the idea but still have questions... It would be a nice twist: when Harry realizes RAB is Regulus, asks Kreacher who will have to tell him, then (if it doesn't take up too many pages) Harry could revive Regulus and perhaps get more information on Horcruxes.

Thom Matheson - Dec 12, 2006 3:19 pm (#7 of 1297)

That's funny.(dribbling juice)At 6'2" and 220 not really. What did Dumbledore say? I'm getting old, reflexes aren't what they used to be, etc, etc.

T Vrana - Dec 12, 2006 3:47 pm (#8 of 1297)

M & M shadow-

If RAB is Regulus and if Kreacher was with him...

The only explanations I can think of, as to why Kreacher would not tell someone what happened to Regulus:

1) Regulus made him swear not to tell anyone about their mission to the cave before they embarked on it, and as Regulus is not dead, Kreacher can't disobey.

2)Kreacher told Mrs. Black, but she swore him to secrecy, fearing that LV would come after the Black family if he knew they knew about the cave.

As to why Kreacher did not stop them, perhaps he couldn't, or perhaps he thought Regulus was dead (after drinking Draught of Living death, Regulus would appear dead). With a lake full of Inferi to take on, and no wand, House elves have their own magic, but what are they capable of? Dobby sent one wizard flying with a magical push, but a throng of Inferi may have been too much. We also know the normal rules of apparition do not apply to House Elves at Hogwarts, could he simply have Apparated to safety when it was clear all was lost and he could not save the apparently dead Regulus?

Gerald Costales - Dec 12, 2006 9:32 pm (#9 of 1297)

‘As to why Kreacher did not stop them, perhaps he couldn't, or perhaps he thought Regulus was dead (after drinking Draught of Living death, Regulus would appear dead). With a lake full of Inferi to take on, and no wand, . . .’ T Vrana

(Source for Flaming Sword graphic - The Revelation of The Flaming Sword - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] )

T Vrana ñ Gee, ‘with a lake full of Inferi to take on, and no wand’ might I suggest a Flaming Sword or do what Dumbledore did (yes, Dumbledore had his wand but why wouldn’t Regulus have had his . . . .)

. . Dumbledore was on his feet again . . . his wand was raised like a torch and from the tip emanated the flames like a vast lasso, encircling them all with warmth.

. . The Inferi bumped into each other, attempting, blindly, to escape the fire in which they were enclosed . . . .’

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (page 576, HBP, American edition)

Regulus was younger and should have been able to handle the ‘Green Liquid’ better than the older Dumbledore.

;-) GC

Gerald Costales - Dec 13, 2006 5:34 am (#10 of 1297)

More thoughts and comments to be added to my previous post.

(re: post #2585+ Horcruxes (17 Jul 05 to 11 Dec 06))

(from post #2584)

"When Harry tries "Accio Horcrux" a body rises from the water. RAB still holding the locket?" T Vrana

T Vrana - What a great thought.

Also, Dumbledore in the Cave tells Harry that Voldemort is afraid of death and darkness*. My thought is that Voldemort had Death Eaters, like RAB, construct the protections in the Cave and fill the Lake with the Inferi.

If RAB was given the task to help make the Cave intruder proof then that would explain his access to the Locket Horcrux. ;-) GC

(Click on the following link to see the original post - Gerald Costales, "+ Horcruxes (17 Jul 05 to 11 Dec 06)" #2585, 10 Oct 2006 5:57 am )

.* ‘There is nothing to be feared from a body, Harry, any more than there is anything to be feared from the darkness. Lord Voldemort, who of course secretly fears both, disagrees. But once again he reveals his own lack of wisdom. It is the unknown we fear when we look upon death and darkness, nothing more.’ (26HBP)

IMHO - I think that RAB(Regulus?) could have easily skirted the defenses in the Cave. ;-) GC

Thom Matheson - Dec 13, 2006 7:43 am (#11 of 1297)

GC, I don't see Voldemort telling anyone. Laced throughout HBP, are numerous references regarding Voldemort being very private and not disclosing anything with anyone. He doesn't trust anyone. Sorry, I see Voldemort acting totally alone, especially with his Horcruxes. Remember that the locket note said that RAB "found out" about his Horcruxes. For the moment I will assume that RAB is Regulus Black.

T Vrana - Dec 13, 2006 9:39 am (#12 of 1297)

GC- No Draught in the green potion, but in the lake water. RAB, upon drinking it, would have succumbed to it and appeared dead to Kreacher. Kreacher has no wand. DD did not drink any of the lake water, as Harry conveniently spilled (splashed) it (grabbed by Inferi) on his face. A drop or two may have entered DD's mouth. Not enough for him to succumb immediately, but enough for him to be drowsy, tired, look like he's nodding off, as described.

I agree with Thom, LV didn't share any info about the cave. Just MHO.

HungarianHorntail11 - Dec 13, 2006 9:50 am (#13 of 1297)

I think that whether Kreacher knew of RAB's death or not, he would be magically bound to Regulus if he was still alive and therefore, would not give Harry any reign over him. The scene at 4PD proved that, IMHO.

That having been said, I sure hope Harry thinks to question Kreacher with regard to Horcruxes - though he should do it in a way that would not show his hand.

T Vrana - Dec 13, 2006 10:05 am (#14 of 1297)

Are we sure? Harry is not related, but acquired Kreacher through Sirius's will. As much as Mrs. Black despised Sirius, did she still give him everything in her will? Kreacher would assume Regulus is dead in the cave, not knowing about the Draught and how it works. If he was willed to Sirius, then Harry, Regulus has no hold over him, except, perhaps, the promise not to tell anyone about the cave.

LL Wordy - Dec 13, 2006 11:35 am (#15 of 1297)

Because of the ‘Accio Horcrux’ having one body jump out of the lake, T Vrana’s suggestion of it being RAB (alive on DoLD) is very possible and interesting. I had a post on the RAB thread that would contradict this but I won’t rule this out as a possibility either, as I don’t believe Regulus to be dead. Since this theory has Regulus being the body coming out of the water, then part of my RAB forum post wouldn’t pan out that Dedalus Diggle may be Regulus (because of what Dedalus’ name refers to in Greek mythology on the Lexicon).

Since I don’t have any of the books on me, how old would’ve Regulus been at the time of his supposed death? Or his age upon going into the cave? Was he ‘underage’ like Harry was with Dumbledore? My posts on the RAB site has Regulus being the guardian over the locket like Lucius was of the diary which still holds ground here with T Vrana’s scenario. But that Snape, in his double-spy role, maybe in charge of converting DEs to the side of good for the Order, not just spying (just a theory because of Dumbledore saying ‘with great personal risk to himself’ when he defends Snape in the Pensieve-GOF). He may have been in charge of Regulus’ desertion (the reason Sirius believes Regulus to be dead)... I'm thinking the possible reason why Dumbledore had James' invisibility cloak here too.

In an attempt to try combining T Vrana’s scenario with parts of mine, maybe Snape could’ve been in the boat with Regulus versus Kreacher. Snape could’ve gone back... giving the impression to Voldemort that Regulus died in his services but giving the impression to the Order that he ‘died’ trying to desert the Death Eaters. Dumbledore refers to covering up someone’s whereabouts in the tower to Draco, this still could be the case in regards to it being Regulus, just in the cave (DoLD) versus Regulus being Dedalus Diggle.

The possibilities are endless with the story we’ve been given to go by!

Phelim Mcintyre - Dec 13, 2006 11:38 am (#16 of 1297)

J K Rowling has said that Regulus is dead. Could the jumping Inferi just be part of the protection that Voldemort put on the locket?

LL Wordy - Dec 13, 2006 11:49 am (#17 of 1297)

I remember her saying Dumbledore is dead and that people should go be going through the grieving process (or something similar). I must've missed her saying Regulus was dead though... I'd like to read what she says about Regulus if someone could help(?).

Steve Newton - Dec 13, 2006 12:29 pm (#18 of 1297)

There is probably good reason to think not but I figure that the jumping Inferi (Great name for a rock band) was Regulus and that he had a Horcrux. Probably another thought that was disproved long ago.

T Vrana - Dec 13, 2006 12:44 pm (#19 of 1297)

LL wordy- Wouldn't Snape have told DD about the Horcrux and cave?

Phelim- Do you have the actual quote? I thought she said he was pretty quiet as he's dead or something similar. But, we still have her telling us that once you are properly dead, there is no coming back. So far we do not have anyone who is not properly dead, but her saying it that way leads me to believe someone is not properly dead.

How does one jumping Inferi protect the locket? It seems the barrier did that quite well. DD knows far more complicated and powerful magic than Accio, and he couldn't get the locket. All other spells tried either do nothing (DD's attempts to get through the barrier) or work normally. Why would Accio create this odd response that really didn't accomplish anything.

I'm not yet convinced that Regulus is RAB, though I'm not convinced he's not, either, but I feel it is quite possible RAB is in the lake.

Steve Newton - Dec 13, 2006 1:30 pm (#20 of 1297)

The jumping Inferi did not protect the locket. Harry did an Accio spell and summoned the Horcrux and the Inferi jumped. If the Inferi had the Horcrux it would seem possible that the Accio would have made it jump.

Mattew Bates - Dec 13, 2006 2:08 pm (#21 of 1297)

LL Wordy, I had a post on the old thread about why the Inferius jumped up from the lake. Suffice it to say it may have had a Horcrux, but not the locket.

Thom Matheson - Dec 13, 2006 2:31 pm (#22 of 1297)

T Vrana, lightweight here. I reread the OotP chapter pg 112 American.

"No, he was murdered by Voldemort. Or on Voldemort's orders, more likely, I doubt Regulus was ever important enough to be killed by Voldemort, in person. From what I found out after he died, he got in so far, then panicked about what he was being asked to do, and tried to back out. Well you don't just hand in your resignation to Voldemort. It's a lifetime of service or death."

If Regulus was in the cave with Kreacher, how would Sirius have found out anything? He was in Azkaban at the time of death. And Kreacher wouldn't have said anything anyway.

Sirius would have heard from another Death Eater, or there must have been a body. As Death Eaters didn't know about Voldemort's Horcruxes because he does not trust anyone with that stuff, there must have been a body or Regulus died some other way outside the cave.

If he died in the cave and was an Inferi, how would anyone know about his death. The only witness would have been Kreacher. Nobody in the Black family could have blasted him off the family tree without disclosing the cave, which would not have happened.

Finally all this supposition is admittedly just that. That being that RAB is Regulus.

check Smile

me and my shadow 813 - Dec 13, 2006 4:39 pm (#23 of 1297)

I can't tell from reading recent posts if anything was decided about Kreacher being Harry's. But the scene in Will and Won't chapter does seem to "prove" that Regulus is indeed properly dead. I don't have OotP so wondering if there's anything in there about Kreacher passing from Mrs. Black to Regulus when she died, then from Regulus to Sirius (being next of kin) when Regulus died. If not for Sirius's will, we're led to believe by DD's statement in this chapter that Kreacher would have automatically gone to Bellatrix (next of kin). It seems elves are magically bound to the next master and not because Kreacher simply thinks he saw Regulus die. So hopefully Harry can demand Kreacher break any promise made to Regulus about not telling about the Cave.

So are Inferi technically dead? I feel they are, and RAB (if it's Regulus) could be in the lake with T Vrana's thought about the "jumping Inferi" as plausible. Nice one T Vrana.

I'm about to research threads on Luna and Ravenclaw Horcrux. Are posters leaning towards the tiara or the wand in Ollivander's window or something completely new...?

T Vrana - Dec 13, 2006 5:13 pm (#24 of 1297)

M & M shadow- Inferi are technically dead. Don't think RAB is an Inferius if he's in the lake, just 'sleeping'. Do we know that Mrs. Black died before Regulus? It seems that a will can pass House Elves to whoever the will writer chooses. So, despite hating her son, he was a Black, and if Mrs. Black assumed Regulus was dead she may have left Kreacher to Sirius in her will.

Thom- Welcome back to the discussion, big guy. Have answers for you, but first, if Regulus was killed on LV's orders, Sirius would not have been in prison. Sirius went to prison after LV's 'downfall'. Where did the idea come from that Sirius was in prison?

Choices - Dec 13, 2006 6:09 pm (#25 of 1297)

According to the Lexicon, Mrs. Black died about 6 years after Regulus. She died in 1985 and Regulus (born in 1961) died in 1979 at about 18 years of age.

Thom Matheson - Dec 13, 2006 6:23 pm (#26 of 1297)

Thanks all. I had Sirius in for 12 + 4 + 16 years ago and Regulus dying at his 2 year in. New math???

me and my shadow 813 - Dec 13, 2006 6:28 pm (#27 of 1297)

Thanks, Choices. I was thinking of the Black tapestry as well. So it might be that Mrs. Black resigned herself to the fact that Sirius would inherit the house and all that goes with it... and Sirius interfered with the natural flow of Bellatrix's inheriting it all by writing out a will.

Interesting, T Vrana, that you believe Regulus to simply be sleeping. This doesn't align well with the above, as he would still be technically alive and I don't think magic/wizarding world could be fooled when it comes to death and inheritance. Seems like all that falls under magical contracts which conduct their own rules, for lack of a better term.

Thom Matheson - Dec 13, 2006 6:34 pm (#28 of 1297)

M&M. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Vrana, may I again say, check.

T Vrana - Dec 13, 2006 7:09 pm (#29 of 1297)

You may say it, but... DD assumed Kreacher might pass to someone other than Harry, but he did not because Sirius left a Will which left Kreacher and Grimmauld Place to Harry. So, if Mommy Black thought Regulus was dead and left a Will which left Grimmauld Place and Kreacher to Sirius, then Sirius left them to Harry, Regulus not being dead doesn't matter.

DD said 'Black family tradition decreed' that the house would remain with the Blacks, no hint that it was magically enforced, just tradition. Again, since Mommy Black outlived Regulus, she would have left it, grudgingly, to Sirius. Sirius assumed Regulus was dead as well, so he left it to Harry (would have picked Harry anyway I think)DD then wondered if there might be magic to keep it in the hands of purebloods, but this was clearly not the case as Harry does indeed inherit #12 and Kreacher.

Check.

M&M Shadow - I say sleeping, tongue in cheek, but it is the Draught of Living Death. It may be that the victim is neither alive or dead, but somewhere in between, suspended, as it were, without status on either side.

Thom Matheson - Dec 13, 2006 7:56 pm (#30 of 1297)

Page 111 PoA American. "you're not on here!" said Harry, after scanning the bottom of the tree closely. "I used to be there," said Sirius, pointing to a small round, charred hole in the tapestry, rather like a cigarette burn. "My sweet old mother blasted me off after I ran away from home".

Further down the page starts a paragraph that goes to page 112 describing Regulus Black. "A date of death some 15 years previous".

First dear sweet mum remove Sirius from the family. Do you think she would give him the house and Kreacher after disowning him? I think not very likely.

15 years prior to current puts Regulus dead just prior to Voldemort at the Potters and Sirius in Azkaban. Sorry about that mistake. I counted too many fingers and not enough toes and missed by a year.

Someone had to see him to count for dead. Like Bertha, he would have been counted as missing not dead unless Mommy had proof. check

T Vrana - Dec 13, 2006 8:35 pm (#31 of 1297)

Thom- From DD we 'know' two things:

1) It is traditional for the house to pass to the next male Black (for this post I will even agree it may be magical in nature, so despite being blasted, it would go to Sirius, BUT, I do not think this necessarily true. Families and some folks have fits of rage and all sorts of nastiness, but when it comes down to it, blood is thicker.... and there are no other Blacks to give it to, Mommy may have decided pureblood disappointment of a Black better than a non-Black, besides, she gets to scream at him thanks to the portrait. Think this is accidental? 'Fine, I'll leave you the house, but make you completely miserable while it is yours.' I know people like this).

2) DD feels there may be magic keeping the house from going to a non-pureblood.

I trust DD is right (Harry recalls the spitting, drooling Mamma Black and agrees as well, PLUS, Kreacher seems to think he's going to Bellatrix, as well). When it turns out that #12 and Kreacher are Harry's, DD does not say that he was wrong about the curse or spell, he says Sirius knew what he was doing. Translation, DD thinks there was a magical curse put on the house, but Sirius knew his way around it. I can't prove this, but it does leave Jo wiggle room to say, if RAB is Regulus, and he is not properly dead, that Sirius' Will superseded whatever magic was in place when left it all to Harry. How could we argue she is wrong?

Checkmate. (Not because I am right, I may not be, but because Jo left herself wiggle room.)

Nicholas Schouten - Dec 13, 2006 8:48 pm (#32 of 1297)

Two quick additional notes on the passage of 12 GP:

1. Mrs. Black may not have had the power to "will" the house if she only had the right to live in it until she died, by way of her husband's earlier will (depending on the status of marital rights in the WW); or

2. Mrs. Black may have made her will years before the argument with Sirius and never got around to changing it, as does frequently happen.

But I really do like the idea of "Here's the house, now see if you can live with it! HAH!"

-Nick

Thom Matheson - Dec 13, 2006 9:37 pm (#33 of 1297)

When Harry goes back to #12, in the next go and finds the real locket in the drawing room, we will then finally figure out the cave, the green liquid, the Inferi scheme of yours, and of course my theory will prevail. Ok that being said, lets go have a drink at the 3 broomsticks. If all goes as the past, our theories will both get tanked anyway, and we'll roll on the floor saying what were we thinking.

Set up the chessboard, lets do it again. Best 2 out of 3. Your move.

TheSaint - Dec 14, 2006 12:12 am (#34 of 1297)

If Regulus were under 'witness protection' then is death would have been faked, rumored loudly and then he would be given a new id and sequestered somewhere. Therefore, Regulus would be dead by all accounts.

Gerald Costales - Dec 14, 2006 7:22 am (#35 of 1297)

(re: post #29)

‘DD said 'Black family tradition decreed' that the house would remain with the Blacks, no hint that it was magically enforced, just tradition. Again, since Mommy Black outlived Regulus, she would have left it, grudgingly, to Sirius. Sirius assumed Regulus was dead as well, so he left it to Harry (would have picked Harry anyway I think) DD then wondered if there might be magic to keep it in the hands of purebloods, but this was clearly not the case as Harry does indeed inherit #12 and Kreacher.’ T Vrana

‘ . . . no hint that it was magically enforced . . .’

T Vrana ñ We may not have a hint that the ‘Will’ Sirius wrote is magically enforced, but we have examples of the unpredictability of magic throughout the Series ñ

. . 1. Voldemort's AK rebounding - most assume it was an AK, I’m leaning to the possibility that the ‘Rebounding Curse’ was possibility the ‘Horcrux making Spell’. (Explaining why Voldemort’s typical AK Curse didn’t act like a typical AK Curse)

Harry’s death was to ‘kill two threats with one stone’ ñ

. . . . a. Eliminate the ONE -

. . . . . . ‘ . . And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not . . . And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives . . .’

. . . . b. And IMHO ñ Harry’s death was to be used to create the Sixth and Final Horcrux which would have been Gryffindor’s Sword. (I also believe James had Gryffindor’s Sword just like Lucius had Riddle’s Diary.)

. . 2. Lily’s Sacrifice created a ‘Magical Protection’ for Harry. (But, we just assume that it was only Lily’s Sacrifice that caused Voldemort’s Curse to Rebound? Other Magic could have been in place that as of yet we are unaware of. DD most certainly was not only relying on the ‘Fidelius Charm’ to keep the Potter’s safe. That’s not like Dumbledore to leave some things to Fate or Chance.)

. .3. The ‘Scar’ a link between Harry and Voldemort.

There are other examples but, to continue. Sirius’s ‘Will’ could easily of brought into action ‘Magic Unknown or Unexplainable’ at this time.

‘Magic’ is IMHO oft times also ‘Unintentional’ -

. . 1. Harry’s hair growing back overnight.

. . 2. Harry blowing up Aunt Marge.

. . 3. Harry becoming a Triwizard Champion. (Yes, Barty Jr. put Harry’s name in the Goblet, but this was when we as Reader’s first learned about ‘Magical Contracts’. And ‘Magical Contracts’ cannot be broken. And do we know for a certainty that Barty Jr. knew a ‘Magical Contract’ was being created when Barty Jr. placed Harry’s name in the Goblet?)

. . 4. Harry sparing Wormtail which created a ‘Life Debt.’

Back to the ‘Will’ - Is part of the House-Elves enslavement tied to the ‘Family’ that owns him/her or to the ‘House’ itself? House-Elves are ‘House’ not ‘Servant-Elves’?

PS HARRY IS NOT A HORCRUX. Gee, nice to get that off my chest.

PPS Regulus and/or RAB is/are DEAD, DEAD, DEAD. . . ;-) GC

TheSaint - Dec 14, 2006 11:58 am (#36 of 1297)

PS HARRY IS NOT A HORCRUX. Gee, nice to get that off my chest. Gerald

So glad you feel better.

HARRY IS A HORCRUX. The universe needed balance.

Mattew Bates - Dec 14, 2006 3:38 pm (#37 of 1297)

HARRY'S SCAR IS HORCRUX-LIKE. A disgruntled Voldemort soulbit resides there by choice, and will leave when it achieves its goal of self-destruction.

How ya like them apples? Smile

Gerald Costales - Dec 15, 2006 7:21 am (#38 of 1297)

"HARRY'S SCAR IS HORCRUX-LIKE." Mattew Bates

This I can agree with.

"HARRY IS A HORCRUX The universe needed balance. TheSaint

Voldemort, Horcrux Maker <> Harry, Horcrux Destroyer.

....Voldemort, the ONE-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named <> Harry, The ONE

. . Voldemort, Yew Wand <> Harry, Holly Wand

. . Voldemort's SCARRED SOUL <> Harry's LIGTHNING BOLT SCAR

Mmm, the Potterverse seems balanced to me.

The Scar maybe Horcrux-like and is definitely a link to Voldemort’s mind.

But, some people can receive Radio Signals because the fillings in their teeth and body chemistry acts like a Radio Receiver. But the fillings don’t make that person a RADIO only Radio-like.

‘Any non-linear electrical circuit can demodulate AM radio signals. Slightly corroded metal fillings, or even an electrolytic connection can do the job (it makes what amounts to an old-fashioned crystal set). It is *possible* to have your tooth fillings function as a crystal set, but I would think that you would have to be pretty close to the broadcasting tower to be able to hear the demodulated signal, which would have to be of sufficient strength to cause something in the mouth to vibrate at audio frequencies. Nevertheless there have been reports of this phenomenon practically from the inception of radio broadcasting.’

(Source - The AFU and Urban Legend Archive Science - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] )

;-) GC

Edited for error GC

TheSaint - Dec 15, 2006 9:58 am (#39 of 1297)

Matthew:

I tend to agree with you there.

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I posted the same thought when I first started many months ago.

Gerald:

Mmm, the Potterverse seems balanced to me.

Yes, but the thread wasn't!

T Vrana - Dec 18, 2006 10:04 am (#40 of 1297)

THOM- Set up the chessboard, lets do it again. Best 2 out of 3. Your move.

OK. From your post, a quote"

"No, he was murdered by Voldemort. Or on Voldemort's orders, more likely, I doubt Regulus was ever important enough to be killed by Voldemort, in person. From what I found out after he died, he got in so far, then panicked about what he was being asked to do, and tried to back out. Well you don't just hand in your resignation to Voldemort. It's a lifetime of service or death."

In reference to how Sirius would have known Regulus was dead, without a body. It seems from the above that Sirius was given information by someone post mortem, regarding Regulus getting in too deep and wanting out. Possible sources:

1) Snape- I really, really doubt it.

2) Another DE- Possible.

3) Mommy Black- I doubt he would have found out from Mommy directly, but perhaps through another relative who was on speaking terms with her.

4) Dumbledore- I like this one best.

DD may have known Regulus planned to leave the DEs from Snape, one of his other useful spies, or Regulus himself. Is it possible that DD made an offer to Regulus, similar to the one he made Draco, and Regulus took him up on it. But:

1) Regulus failed to show up and it was assumed he was killed, because it was known LV had ordered his murder. That is, his murder was to be staged, but prior to disappearing from the WW (by plan) he visited the cave to take the Horcrux, and ended up in the lake.

2) Or, the death was faked, there was a body, and Regulus 'disappeared' as planned, but he went to the cave to retrieve the Horcrux and ended up in the lake.

It is also possible Mommy Black knew that Regulus was planning to leave, and was 'dead' (victim of Draught, but to Kreacher's eyes, dead), from Kreacher's point of view, but:

1) Kreacher was unable to tell Mommy Black details as Regulus swore him to secrecy, or

2) She knows he 'died' in the cave from Kreacher's report, but is afraid to tell anyone how or where he died, fearing retribution from LV, but does admit LV killed him.

Thoughts?

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 18, 2006 12:09 pm (#41 of 1297)

Well I had not kept up on my reading for many months so I have just completed reading approximately 1300 posts. Of course I skipped a few here or there but this subject has been pretty well taken apart, dissected and reassembled.

BUT! I for one still think that Harry's scar is going to have a lot to do with Harry's defeat of LV in the final battle. Be it a Horcrux or not.

It also seems that after 1346 posts on the subject that the only thing that we can ALL agree on is to disagree. We just don't seem to have enough information. An somehow I believe that JKR’s Book 7 is not going to tie up all of the loose ends that we have questions on. JM2K's

Mickey

Thom Matheson - Dec 18, 2006 2:11 pm (#42 of 1297)

T Vrana, I can go along with a lot you say but you got to get rid of that whole lake thing.

I don't see Dumbledore involved because that would have been one heck of a memory to have in your possession. Regulus' memory would have been more important then even Slughorn's. Were Dumbledore alive, I think we would find that he would be just as surprised at the locket switch as Harry was. I am still banking on the fact that the real locket is back at #12 and Harry will find it through Kreacher. The fact that Mommy dearest (I assume) blasted Regulus off the family tree tells me that the family was notified of his death. It could just as easily been information supplied from Sirius' uncle. How the family was notified is still yet a mystery. We know that at the time of his death, he was not in the service of the Dark Lord. Other wise Mom doesn't take him off the family tree, being a big disappointment and all. Kreacher knows more then he is telling has been in the back of my mind, but the more I think about it, don't you think that Dumbledore would have spotted that and taken his memory? What did I miss?

TheSaint - Dec 18, 2006 6:06 pm (#43 of 1297)

Regulus was not blasted off the tree.????

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Thom Matheson - Dec 18, 2006 6:12 pm (#44 of 1297)

Saint, I don't know what you mean? Regulus was removed from the family tree.

TheSaint - Dec 18, 2006 6:13 pm (#45 of 1297)

The one on the Lexicon shows him on there.....not in the list of blasted off people.

Thom Matheson - Dec 18, 2006 6:22 pm (#46 of 1297)

Major oops. Thanks for that. You are soooo right. I just looked it up in OotP, right smack there on page 112. Alright back to the drawing board. I have no clue what the heck I was thinking

Obviously too late to hide my post in shame. But the content of the idea that the family knew about his death, including a date would suggest that there was some form of evidence rather then just a disappearance. Pardon me while I continue to back pedal out of here.

T Vrana - Dec 18, 2006 6:23 pm (#47 of 1297)

Thom- What did I miss?

See The Saint's post.

I'm not following the DD not being involved part. If he had offered Regulus a way out, but then Regulus disappeared, how could DD get any memory? DD thinks he is dead as well. I agree DD would be surprised the locket was a fake. I don't think Regulus (if he is RAB) told DD about the Cave. I think DD did that on his own.

The locket at #12 may be a Horcrux, but I think it may also be a red herring. Too obvious, and why doesn't Harry remember seeing it? No mention of the Slytherin snake. Plus, Hermione has a great memory, and never mentions the locket to Harry when he shares the Horcrux info with them.

Even without DD's involvement, Kreacher telling Mommy Black that Regulus was dead, with or without full details, works, I think.

T Vrana - Dec 19, 2006 9:56 am (#48 of 1297)

Re-reading HBP with my son and just reached the true Horcrux memory. Sluggy says DD is particularly fierce about not teaching anything about Horcruxes at Hogwarts. I wonder, is this just on general principle, or past experience....?

Thom Matheson - Dec 19, 2006 10:35 am (#49 of 1297)

OOH. Now there's a thought

T Vrana - Dec 19, 2006 10:49 am (#50 of 1297)

Not that DD would make a Horcrux, but has he known of someone else who did?

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Steve Newton - Dec 19, 2006 10:50 am (#51 of 1297)

Your can't be thinking of Aberforth and the goat can you?

Mattew Bates - Dec 19, 2006 11:07 am (#52 of 1297)

If I'd been drinking anything, Steve, you would have just made me destroy my keyboard. A long time ago, before JKR said Grindelwald was dead, I thought he might have been known by another name, post-defeat. My prime two candidates were Filch and Aberforth. Since book six, I've wondered whether Grindelwald had a Horcrux ... and now, thanks to you, Grindelwald has a goat Horcrux.

Steve Newton - Dec 19, 2006 1:04 pm (#53 of 1297)

Always glad to lend a hand.

S.E. Jones - Dec 21, 2006 1:56 am (#54 of 1297)

Thom Matheson --I am still banking on the fact that the real locket is back at #12 and Harry will find it through Kreacher.--

T Vrana --The locket at #12 may be a Horcrux, but I think it may also be a red herring. Too obvious, and why doesn't Harry remember seeing it? No mention of the Slytherin snake. Plus, Hermione has a great memory, and never mentions the locket to Harry when he shares the Horcrux info with them.--

Maybe the part that we think is obvious but isn't has nothing to do with whether the locket is the Horcrux but rather whether it is still in Grimmauld Place. Even if the locket that was at #12 was the locket RAB took out of the basin, that doesn't mean that it's still there after a total house cleaning by Sirius, Harry, and the Weasleys and by Dung. Even if the locket-Horcrux were the one at 12 Grimmauld Place, we know that it was in a pile of stuff to be thrown out by Sirius so it could be in a wizarding land-fill somewhere, Kreacher was digging through stuff they were trying to throw out so it could be in his little nest or with him at Hogwarts, Mundungus has pinched some of Sirius's stuff and is pawning it off to those who'll buy it so it could be with him in Azkaban (I doubt it, but Harry may have to travel there to see him or wait until he gets out to find out what happened to it), confiscated by the Ministry (when they arrested him), in some hidey-hole somewhere where Dung thought it'd be safe, or has been sold to someone, we also know that Dung was trying to barter with the barman of the Hogs Head (which seems to be Aberforth) so he might have it. What seemed so darn straight forward with the locket being at 12 Grimmauld Place could end up taking a good part of the book to track down....

Also, I don't remember Harry showing Hermione the locket. He shows the locket and note to Ron in their room after the meeting with McGonagall and the Heads of House and Ron doesn't recognize it, which doesn't surprise me. I'm also not surprise Harry didn't recognize it. Harry didn't recognize the ring he saw on Marvolo’s finger in Ogden's memory was the same ring he'd seen DD wearing when he picked him up at the Dursleys until he saw it again as he was leaving DD's office, and he had to ask about it, he wasn't sure just by looking at it up close. Now that's three times he saw the ring in just a few months time and he had to ask if it was the same ring. He saw the locket at Grimmauld Place once, as it was being thrown out by someone (we don't even know that Harry was the one who tried to open it as we're told about it by the narrator) and that was a year before he saw it in Ogden's memory. All Jo really says about Hermione's knowledge of the locket and note is this: He had shown Hermione the note inside the locket the morning after Dumbledore's death, and although she had not immediately recognized the initials as belonging to some obscure wizard about whom she had been reading, she had since been rushing off to the library a little more often than was strictly necessary for somebody who had no homework to do. "The note inside the locket", does that mean he gave her the locket with the note in it, as he had Ron, or does that mean that he took the note that was inside the locket out and gave just it to her? Would she have even recognized the locket? As I said before, we aren't told by the narrator who tried to open the locket. It could have been Ginny, Molly, Fred, George, or even Sirius, and may not have been one of the Trio at all. As far as I know, Harry hadn't shown the locket to any other member of the Weasley family.

I definitely think the locket at Grimmauld Place is the Horcrux-locket Voldemort tried to hide in the cave, but I think it's far from obvious where it is now and how Harry's going to go about finding it.

Gerald Costales - Dec 21, 2006 7:19 am (#55 of 1297)

"I definitely think the locket at Grimmauld Place is the Horcrux-locket Voldemort tried to hide in the cave, but I think it's far from obvious where it is now and how Harry's going to go about finding it." S.E. Jones

SEJ - I agree that the Locket at 12GP is probably a Horcrux. But, there are still so many unanswered questions. ñ

. . 1. How did RAB find out about the Horcrux locket?

. . 2. How did RAB replace the real Horcrux locket with the Fake Locket?

. . 3. Did RAB escape the defenses and traps in the Cave?

. . 4. What does Kreacher know?

. .1. I would agree that Voldemort doesn’t trust anyone. But, Voldemort is more likely to delegate some tasks than Voldemort doing it himself. So, I still strongly believe that Voldemort had RAB help in the building of the Cave with its magical defenses and traps. And without Voldemort’s knowledge, RAB found out about the Locket Horcrux and replaced it with the Fake Horcrux.

. .2. If RAB was willingly or more likely unwilling helping to build the Cave; then RAB had access to the Real Horcrux. (Even Barty Crouch Jr. eventually was able to escape the effects of Barty Sr’s Imperious Curse. So, why couldn’t have RAB escaped the use of an Imperious Curse given the right circumstances.

. .3. RAB is dead, Dead, DEAD. And I don’t believe that Leaping Inferi in the Lake was RAB clutching the Locket Horcrux or that RAB had drunk a Draught of Dead.

. .4. Yes, Kreacher more likely knows the circumstance of RAB’s murder and Kreacher more than likely knows the location of the Real Locket Horcrux.

Let’s only hope the Real Locket Horcrux is in a not too unpleasant or too dangerous place. . .

I like the idea that - Grindelwald (? -1945?) - The dark wizard that Dumbledore defeated in 1945 (PS6, PS13); maybe connected to Horcruxes. But, I believe it was Grindelwald that taught Tom Riddle in the details of Horcrux making. Slughorn only provided vague and general information on Horcrux making.

If you we had some info on a Book 7 release date!!! What a truly Merry X-mas and Happy New Year it would be. ;-) GC

Thom Matheson - Dec 21, 2006 7:32 am (#56 of 1297)

Let us not assume that because the locket might be at #12, that there is a Horcrux is in it. I believe that it was destroyed by RAB.

T Vrana - Dec 21, 2006 9:19 am (#57 of 1297)

SE- Wasn't referring to Harry showing the fake locket to Hermione, but rather Hermione seeing and handling the locket at #12:

"..a heavy locket that none of them could open...

They were all in on the cleaning at the time, and no one could open it. It seems to me when Hermione learns of the Slytherin locket, then the fake locket, she should remember (as she has an excellent memory) that she once handled a heavy gold locket with a big serpent on it. (Though I will concede everything at #12 seemed to have serpents...).

Not saying finding the locket again will be easy, but that the locket at #12 seems obvious once we read HBP. But, even DD did not suspect that the body in the lake might actually be holding a Horcrux and this is why it rose from the water. (He assumed he alone knew LV’s secret, and that the Horcrux would still be in place in the basin. Had he survived, I'm sure he would have reconsidered the leaping body). Given the debate here, it would seem that most, by far, think the locket at #12 is Slytherin's, and that the body was nothing. I think Jo's clues are usually more subtle and less obvious.

If the locket at 12 is the locket, my money is on Kreacher having it....

S.E. Jones - Dec 21, 2006 10:23 am (#58 of 1297)

There isn't a big serpent on the front of the locket. Just an ornate 'S'. That really doesn't make it stand out, does it? We aren't even told about the 'S' until, what, the second time we see the locket in HBP? It's only described as a "heavy gold locket" in Ogden's memory. In Hokey's memory, we hear, "Slytherin's mark," he said quietly, as the light played upon an ornate serpentine S. Now, I for one take the "serpentine" comment to be a description of how the 'S' flows, not to mean an actual snake.

As for Hermione, being passed a locket two years ago (it's two years by the time she heard about the fake locket) and being asked if she could open it, trying, and then handing back with a "no" isn't a memory that would automatically scream "connection to Voldemort" or "Horcrux". We really aren't told how many of them handled the locket of if just a few of them tried and Sirius said "oh, just toss it". "None of them could open" doesn't have to mean that each and every one of them tried, and it doesn't have to mean that each one of them memorized what the locket looked like, or that they'd suddenly remember it after finding out the locket-Horcrux Harry went after was fake.

Soul Search - Dec 21, 2006 11:37 am (#59 of 1297)

I just thought remembering the #12 locket was something for DH, rather than HBP.

S.E. Jones - Dec 21, 2006 12:12 pm (#60 of 1297)

I agree, Soul Search. It will probably happen at the beginning of the book. Who knows, maybe Ginny or Molly will see the locket when Harry attends Bill's wedding and will remark how it looks similar to the one they threw out in OP.

T Vrana - Dec 21, 2006 1:49 pm (#61 of 1297)

'DH' stands for....?

SE- No they didn't all have to memorize it, nor does it have to 'scream' anything, but Hermione tends to have a great memory. I would think the serpentine S is more than just the way it flows. Really, all 'S's are serpentine, so no need to mention the flow of the letter. That none of them could open it doesn't have to mean they all tried, but it does suggest it, and I can't see Hermione passing up the chance to try. She is always fixing, opening, conjuring things with her above average skills, so I can easily see her giving it a try, fully expecting to succeed where Harry or Ron failed.

Steve Newton - Dec 21, 2006 1:59 pm (#62 of 1297)

T Vrana, you should probably check the Book 7's Title (Spoiler) or the JKR site threads.

T Vrana - Dec 21, 2006 2:14 pm (#63 of 1297)

Ahhh... I checked the 'approved' abbreviations since I've been reprimanded for using DoLD (Draught of Living Death).

me and my shadow 813 - Dec 21, 2006 4:28 pm (#64 of 1297)

In light of the new title discussion, and Wingardium Leviosa's link there, I do still believe we could see 4 Horcruxes corresponding to the four "suits". Frequently, sword is called a staff and is often depicted as a snake; cup; locket as pentacle/disc; and the tiara or wand either way. This doesn't correspond exactly with the four elements & houses, but that doesn't bother me, and it seems good for the story that Vold never got his hands on Gryffindor's relic.

S.E. Jones - Dec 21, 2006 6:56 pm (#65 of 1297)

T Vrana, I'm sure DH will be added to the list shortly. I've suggested DoLD be added, but I don't think it will happen; the Draught of Living Death is just not something that gets discussed often enough in enough threads (more than one or two).

All I was trying to say is that I find it very believable that no one has made the connection between the locket in Harry's pocket and the one at Grimmauld Place. Hermione is very observant, and she may well be the one to finally make the connection, but it is still very believable if she isn't. She saw the locket once as it was being thrown away and, two years later, Harry finds the fake Horcrux. We don't even know for sure if Harry showed her the locket at the end of HBP, just that he showed her "the note inside the locket" (which could mean he gave her the locket and note together or that he took the note out of the locket and handed just it to her). There is nothing to make her suddenly go "oh, the locket that was supposed to be sitting in the cave is the locket that I saw at #12", at least not yet. Maybe she'll finally run across "Regulus A. Black" somewhere and be the only one to remember the locket no one could open?

John Bumbledore - Dec 22, 2006 6:54 am (#66 of 1297)

I agree with SE and others who believe it is not unusual that none have remembered a similar locket being at number 12 Grimmauld Place. Neither is it odd that none of the trio have yet thought of connecting Sirius's brother Regulus with the initials R.A.B. After all, they do not have the most comprehensive collection of references and analytical minds that are here on the Harry Potter Lexicon and it's forum.

**Yes, we all may take a bow after Jo identifies R.A.B. and Hermione suddenly remembers # 12 and the locket!**

John Bumbledore <)B^Dò

Thom Matheson - Dec 22, 2006 7:21 am (#67 of 1297)

I agree John/Jack. They had a death, funeral, the off to the train to leave. There really wasn't time to discuss or digest at the time to book ends. It will only be a matter of time before they figure it out.

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 22, 2006 8:13 am (#68 of 1297)

I agree Thom, I expect that Hermione will let that mind of hers slow down for just a second and will begin to put 2 and 2 together. It might even take a trip to #12 before she remembers the locket and connects R.A.B. to Regulus. I firmly believe it will be Hermione who makes the connection. Harry and Ron just seem to be above all those tiny details. Another reason for Harry to include her on his quest.

Mickey

me and my shadow 813 - Dec 23, 2006 6:54 pm (#69 of 1297)

To correct myself - regarding Horcruxes and four suits/relics - I believe it is wand/spear that's also depicted as a staff and can be represented by a snake. In a deck of cards it would be the clubs.

I agree that Hermione will be returning to #12 with Harry and since it was stated briefly as the locket "nobody" could open, I envision Hermione having attempted it. It's a bit odd she wouldn't have noticed the "S" emblem, but for me it doesn't matter JKR didn't bother taking the time with this little detail. It would be easily remedied with Hermione saying, "Why didn't I notice this before?" sort of thing...no big deal.

Gerald Costales - Dec 25, 2006 9:27 am (#70 of 1297)

I believe that the Locket at 12GP is a Horcrux and that Kreacher will be needed to help Harry find it. Here are some old thoughts about Horcruxes -

Is there a connection between Horcruxes and Tarot Card?

The minor arcana, consisting of 56 cards (sometimes referred to as pips):

o Forty cards in four different suits of ten traditionally batons or wands, cups, swords, coins or pentacles

(Source: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] )

Could this just be coincidence or what . . .

Tarot suit . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Possible Horcrux

Swords . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Gryffindor's Sword

Cups . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Hufflepuff's Cup

Batons or Wands . . . . . . . . . . .Ravenclaw's Wand?????*

Coins or Pentacles . . . . . . . . . .The Ring with the Peverell coat of arms**

.* There was some discussion in the Mr. Ollivander Thread that the Wand on display in Ollivander's store window may have belonged to Ravenclaw.

.** I tried to find a "Peverell coat of arms" on the Web but none of those Coat of Arms had a Five-point star on them. A Pentacle is a Five-point star inscribed in a Circle.

(But, the "Black family crest" designed by JKR does have two Five-point stars at the top of the shield or more properly two mullets in chief.)

(Click on the following link - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - to see the Lexicon rendition of the "Black family crest")

(Click on the following for the original post that this post is based on - Gerald Costales, "+ Book 7's Title (Spoiler)" #109, 23 Dec 2006 8:34 am )

I believe Gryffindor's Sword was to be the Sixth and Final Horcrux, but then Voldemort's AK rebounded. Later, Voldemort needed to settle for Nagini as his Sixth and Final Horcrux.

And in regards to Coins in the Series, let's not forget Hermione and her Protean Charm -

Protean Charm (PRO-tee-an)

"protean" Eng. able to readily assume a different form, from Proteus, a sea god from Greek mythology who could change his shape rapidly

Complex spell that makes something change form.

. . .Hermione was able to cast a Protean Charm on the fake Galleons the D.A. used during the 1995 - 1996 [Y15 - Y16] school year to pass along the date and time of each meeting. The spell caused the numbers on the members' coins to change when Harry changed the numbers on his coin. The Ravenclaws were all astounded that Hermione, who wasn't in their house, could cast this spell, since it's N.E.W.T. level. Clearly none of them could cast this magic at fifth year level (OP19). Ironically, Hermione got the idea from Voldemort's use of the Death Eaters' Dark Marks as a means of communication.

(Source: Encyclopedia of Spells - P - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] )

"protean" Eng. able to readily assume a different form, from Proteus, a sea god from Greek mythology who could change his shape rapidly

What if a Horcrux could change its appearance to avoid detection? ;-) GC - MERRY CHRISTMAS

Pinky Prime - Dec 25, 2006 6:48 pm (#71 of 1297)

Slughorn told Tom Riddle that there is a spell associated with making a Horcrux whether before or after the killing I do not know. However, a great deal of forum posts deal with the killing part but not the spell that tears a soul asunder. IMO The Avada Kedavra was originally created for the purpose of killing only but we have yet to scope what the other spell is and how it is incorporated. Incidentally it seems to me that Slughorn might have had a clue about where to find such spells but did not want to be embarrassed further.

In the physical sense, a soul may be compared to an old towel that has been "torn" to make smaller rags. I've experimented with this theory and concluded that with each tear the edges were frayed and they got worse over time after each use. I also cut another cloth using a pair of sharp scissors. The edges definitely came out better.

In an insubstantial, intangible sense, Voldemort would tear the soul within him and leave an unfrayed end at the end of each course. The only exception was his stint with Harry. Is there a difference between being frayed and maimed? His soul is what animates his existence and if it is maimed as DD implied, it may be a part of his adaptation of becoming subhuman. Meaning, if he was missing the spell to make the Horcrux; the ingredient to make it was this unknown spell, and like the scissors the soul would have come out better. I agree with DD’s assessment that LV’s soul is now maimed because of the lack of this spell.

Critical Thinker - Dec 25, 2006 11:14 pm (#72 of 1297)

One thing I'm sure about is that it is Regulus who took the locket. I don’t know if this has been posted yet but If you look at to whom the not is addressed to... To the Dark Lord, the only people who I know have ever call LV The Dark Lord are DEs or former DEs. every one else either calls him LV or He-who-must-blah-blah-blah. Regulus was a former DE. The note looks like it was written by a DE. RAB is Regulus' initials. Anyone else think the same or has this already been brought up?

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 26, 2006 7:32 am (#73 of 1297)

I agree with you "Critical Thinker". Question to be asked now is where is the locket? DID he destroy it as the note suggest? Or was the locket found and seemingly thrown out at #12 the locket in question? If so WHERE is it now? QUESTIONS, Questions, questions!

Mickey

Choices - Dec 26, 2006 10:15 am (#74 of 1297)

Trelawney, in her predictions, refers to "The Dark Lord", and she isn't a Death Eater.

Critical Thinker - Dec 27, 2006 3:44 am (#75 of 1297)

Choices you bring up a good point. But was it really Trelawney who called him that or the "inner eye," per say. Because in her class she spoke of he who must not be named, not the Dark Lord. Her prediction is just one case, and not a very strong one. But my question is the ring was not destroyed but it is a Horcruxes, so I would assume that it is very well possible that the necklace at #12 was indeed the locket. Was the locket thrown away I thought it was just stolen by Kreacher? So would it still be in his cupboard or maybe he took it to Hogwarts when HP sent him there?

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 27, 2006 10:41 am (#76 of 1297)

It didn't say it was stolen by Kreacher. I just reread that section of OotP to see and all it talks about was that a heavy locket that all of them tried to open and it infers that it was thrown into a sack where they were depositing items removed from the cabinet.

Later when they go into Kreacher’s "room" to leave his Christmas present there is no mention of the locket among the other items he had pilfered.

Mickey

HungarianHorntail11 - Dec 28, 2006 8:03 am (#77 of 1297)

Were the items Dung took listed? I got the feeling he had the locket with his stash but don't recall why. (Feeling as though I've been hit with a memory charm. )

Choices - Dec 28, 2006 10:00 am (#78 of 1297)

JKR makes no mention of anything but a goblet that Mundungus took - a goblet with the Black family crest on it. As for the other stuff, JKR simply says it looked like the contents of a junk shop window and described them as "grubby".

Liz Mann - Dec 30, 2006 7:55 am (#79 of 1297)

I've been thinking about the Horcruxes and have come up with a jumble of thoughts. Sorry if any of them have been mentioned before and please forgive me if I ramble.

If Harry is a Horcrux, then he must be an additional one, not one of the six. Voldemort obtained the diary, the locket and the ring while he was still at school and he found out about Horcruxes while he was still at school, so presumably he turned those objects into Horcruxes just after he left. That's three Horcruxes plus Voldemort himself - four pieces of soul. He gets the cup while he is still young too, and turns that into a Horcrux - five pieces of soul (and he's aiming for seven). Dumbledore, I think, said that Voldemort intended Harry to be the final Horcrux, which means that the unknown object was obtained and turned into a Horcrux before that (six pieces of soul). And then the attack on Harry failed, as far as Voldemort knows, so he made Nagini into the sixth and final Horcrux instead (seven pieces of soul). But if the attempt on Harry did work, then that means that Nagini was a seventh Horcrux - eight pieces of soul.

I was also thinking about whether, if Harry is a Horcrux, could he destroy the soul without killing himself? Can the soul be extracted from the object and then destroyed, or does the object have to be destroyed? Well destroying the diary certainly did kill that piece of soul, so destroying the object definitely works. But then again, Riddle came out of the diary by using Ginny, which means that it is possible to separate the soul from the object. Presumably, if the process of making Riddle real had been completed, he would have been independent of the diary, so destroying it wouldn't have gotten rid of him.

However, surely once Riddle was 'real' he would have been mortal, unless he would automatically be bound to the other Horcruxes, which seems doubtful somehow. If he was mortal then Harry could have been able to kill Riddle the way you would kill any human. So does this mean that if Harry is a Horcrux, he can extract the piece of soul from himself, by using the life of some willing third party (sacrificing said third party - not Ron, please not Ron) and then once the soul is solid and real, kill it?

But then, would Harry let the third party die so that he can live, or would he just go the 'destroy the object' way and sacrifice himself? Well he might have to let the third party die because the prophecy says that either he will kill Voldemort or Voldemort will kill him. If Harry sacrifices himself to get rid of the last Horcrux then either he has to cause some big explosion that kills both him and Voldemort simultaneously, then someone else will have to kill Voldemort, which would not be the prophecy at all.

UNLESS, Voldemort kills Harry, not knowing he's a Horcrux and thereby fulfilling the prophecy, and then someone else (Neville?) kills Voldemort?

But surely that would be a bit anti-climatic, wouldn't it, if it wasn't the protagonist who killed the antagonist?

I dunno, what do you guys think?

Anna L. Black - Dec 30, 2006 8:27 am (#80 of 1297)

"[...] If Harry sacrifices himself to get rid of the last Horcrux then either he has to cause some big explosion that kills both him and Voldemort simultaneously [...]" - Liz Mann

I do wonder - if somebody destroyed all of Voldemort's Horcruxes while he was still Vapormort (= a floating piece of soul) - would he die with the destruction of the last of the Horcruxes, or would this Vapor still float around until somebody kills it one way or another?

Because if it's the first option and Harry is a Horcrux, then Harry could kill the present Voldemort (using AK or by some other means), and only then sacrifice himself, thus destroying the final bit of soul and eradicating Voldemort completely. (I'm assuming the "regular" Horcruxes were already destroyed at that point)

That said, I'm not sure I like this scenario. I just don't want Harry to sacrifice himself, so I hope that either he isn't a Horcrux (though I think this is a valid possibility) or, like Liz said, that there's a way to detach that piece of soul from his body (BTW, I'm not sure why this would require a third life... And I certainly don't see Harry using anybody else for this).

Liz Mann - Dec 30, 2006 9:25 am (#81 of 1297)

I'm not sure why this would require a third life.

Riddle was using Ginny's life in order to leave the diary and make himself real, so I assume that would be how you do it.

Mrs Brisbee - Dec 30, 2006 1:51 pm (#82 of 1297)

That is an excellent point, Liz. It does seem to imply that it is possible to transfer a Horcrux soulbit from one vessel to another.

T Vrana - Jan 1, 2007 7:42 am (#83 of 1297)

Thom- They had a death, funeral, the off to the train to leave. There really wasn't time to discuss or digest at the time to book ends.

Hermione did take time to research RAB in the library, to no avail, and found that Eileen Prince had married a Muggle named Snape, so she was working on this. I will agree that Jo may have postponed Hermione's "oh, remember the locket at #12" the same way she postponed Harry being able to see thestrals, for convenience, but it is awkward. Hermione has figured out a great many things we brilliant Lexicon posters have not until she pointed it out,(basilisk, werewolf... etc.) I hesitate to think we can easily see this, and she can't. And I can easily see it, that's why I'm not sure it is true.

It would be strange if Harry did not show the note to Hermione. We are only "shown" Ron seeing it, but Harry counts on Hermione's analytical and investigative skills, and Hermione certainly would have asked to see it. She, too, would know that only DEs call LV Dark Lord, she knows that Regulus Black was a DE. She most likely handled and tried to open said locket (they all tried, or at least canon said none of them could open it, and it would be very Hermione-like to say "Oh, here, let me try". Failure to do it would have stood out, as would the serpentine Slytherin mark).

As I said, I can see a moment in DH when she slaps her forehead and says she's been so stupid. If the locket at #12 is a Horcrux and RAB is Regulus, I'll agree, and that's not like Hermione.

Liz However, surely once Riddle was 'real' he would have been mortal, unless he would automatically be bound to the other Horcruxes, which seems doubtful somehow.

I think you are correct. DD told Harry that the soul bit in the diary was no more. If the soul bits were connected to each other, I don't think he would have said this. I think the bits are only connected to the main soul.

I do think Harry must be Horcrux like, at the very least. Given what we know it is the only explanation for his link to LV and LV's 'gifts'.

Madame Librarian - Jan 5, 2007 3:27 pm (#84 of 1297)

Over at the Book 7 Title thread, we've drifted a bit OT (off topic) and are discussing Horcruxes among other things. A question has occurred to me that I may have missed in earlier discussions or I'm just too dense to figure it out.

It has to do with timing. If Voldemort's soul is now split into 7 bits with one remaining in him (allowing him to survive that rebounded AK way back when), how exactly would the critical timing play out should he ever need to retrieve one of the remaining Horcruxes to insure his survival?

Obviously he may not go into battle with Harry without having one of the backups ready beforehand. But we've established that Voldemort is nothing if not arrogant and over confident. Because the whole issue of Horcruxes hadn't been introduced yet, I assume he had no soul bit stashed in his robe pocket ready when he impulsively decided to take things into his own hands and show up at the MoM battle in OotP. He risked mortal injury there what with Harry and DD teaming up against him. Now, I could be very wrong here--maybe one of the remaining four was on tap already and Jo just didn't go into it then, but will explain all in Book 7.

But maybe not. So say there's a battle, Harry has managed a surprise ambush of Voldemort who has not gotten a Horcrux out of storage so to speak just in case he'll need it. Voldemort receives a mortal wound. What does he do then? Does he have any time to actually make use of a Horcrux? He's out of luck, right? Is there some on-the-spot-magic he can do (or Wormtail, or some DE) to instantly re-install a remote soul bit from the Horcrux?

As far as we can tell at this point, Voldemort may not even be aware that the ring and locket are basically de-activated. Harry may spend a big chunk of Book 7 going after the remaining four. If he has any success at all, will Voldemort even know that he's down one or more Horcruxes?

Thoughts, please.

Ciao. Barb

HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 5, 2007 3:57 pm (#85 of 1297)

Barb, I believe there is a complete detachment btw. Big V and his Horcruxes. Unless he tracks them down to check on them, he won't know until he's dust.

Madame Librarian - Jan 5, 2007 4:31 pm (#86 of 1297)

Well, that would be an nice advantage for the Good Guy side, wouldn't it?

It would make for an interesting dynamic in the Book 7 if Voldemort realizes at one point what Harry is doing, and they race around trying to get to the Horcruxes first. If that were the case, Harry would have a nice edge because he does not have to keep these things a secret and can enlist his buddies (and the Order maybe) to help. Voldemort, on the other hand, wants to keep it hush-hush (he doesn't want to give away the Big Secret of his semi-immortality 'cuz he doesn't really trust anyone). Ah, but he does know where the darn things are.

Ciao. Barb

TomProffitt - Jan 5, 2007 5:32 pm (#87 of 1297)

Barb, I don't think you and I view the nature of how a Horcrux works the same way.

He doesn't need to have one present for it to work by my understanding. Should his body die, the fact that Riddle has created a Horcrux prevents his soul from "going on to the next great adventure." Should his body die, he will have to go through the GoF rebodification process once again. Which is okay, Pettigrew has another hand to give. Having a Horcrux in his pocket at the time of death won't make a bit of difference.

Of course if all of his Horcruxes have been destroyed it's time to move down the tunnel toward the light.

Madame Librarian - Jan 5, 2007 6:14 pm (#88 of 1297)

Oh, I think I see. You're saying that once created a Horcrux comes into play if/when needed no matter its proximity to the creator. And...the reason they are hidden and protected so well is to prevent anyone else--an enemy, of course--from destroying them. Yes, that makes more sense.

Well, there still could be a magnificent race to destroy them (Harry) or protect them (Voldemort). What fun for us readers!

Ciao. Barb

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 5, 2007 6:22 pm (#89 of 1297)

Yes, we have to hope that Voldemort doesn't take the time to visit any of his old haunts to check up on his spare parts. He might then have to start making a whole new set of new and improved racing Horcruxes.

Mickey

HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 6, 2007 5:55 am (#90 of 1297)

LOL, Mickey.

Barb, imagine if you add yet another dynamic to the situation: If Harry is a Horcrux, I am betting that it will be the last one remaining - perhaps they won't learn of it right away, they won't know why Big V is still alive until they realize this. Now Big V has to make a decision - to kill Harry (his last remaining Horcrux) or keep him alive because as long as Harry is alive, Big V remains alive. Of course, he can always kill Harry and use his murder to make another Horcrux but that didn't work out very well the first time around, did it?

Tom, I think that graveyard scene is where Big V finally figured out how to make an immortal body - as long as his Horcruxes remain. I am suspicious as to how it will play out, since he has Harry's blood and Big V tends to forget useful information. There was definitely something in DD's reaction when he found out.

T Vrana - Jan 6, 2007 8:09 am (#91 of 1297)

I think that graveyard scene is where Big V finally figured out how to make an immortal body - as long as his Horcruxes remain.

A couple of problems here. Even if his body is immortal, an AK does not seem to harm the body, just separate the soul form the body, so an immortal body isn't very useful against an AK, is it?

How does one make a body immortal? He can't bleed? Suffocate? Burn? Not sure I believe he made an immortal body. He seemed very concerned in the GoF when Harry managed the joining of the wands, so I think he knows his body is still mortal, otherwise, thinking he has all his Horcruxes, he has nothing to fear except entrapment (and embarrassment...).

HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 6, 2007 12:00 pm (#92 of 1297)

Explanations in either direction will only result in more questions, T Vrana. The fact remains that he went into a cauldron as a somewhat lesser version of ET and came out with a full-grown body. Hard to make that seem as part of a natural order of things. I am really delving into more speculative area than I care to but I'll try my best. With regard to burning, suffering, etc., we have yet to see what happens. However, we do know that he won't blister/burn up as Quirrell did when he touches Harry. He believes it is due to Harry's blood. I feel as though it is because of the Horcruxes. Once they have been destroyed, having Harry's blood may very well come back at him.

With regard to Priori Incantatem, remember the phoenix song played. It puts fear into the hearts of cowards and strength into the brave. I'll venture to guess Big V is of the former kind.

EDIT: an AK does not seem to harm the body, just separate the soul form the body T Vrana, if that was the case, then an AK victim would end up very much like those who'd been sucked by a Dementor. The body, although seemingly unbattered, is definitely dead from an AK.

T Vrana - Jan 6, 2007 2:52 pm (#93 of 1297)

About the AK, true. I was equating the separation with death, that is, the body can't live without a soul, but clearly the Dementor example shows this is not true.

Madame Librarian - Jan 7, 2007 3:36 pm (#94 of 1297)

HHII--

I am of the opinion that Harry is not a Horcrux, but does have a bit of Voldemort's essence (or whatever) in him, thanks to the rebounded AK.

But could the following scenario possibly happen?

1. Final conflict--Harry vs. Voldemort (who has by now used up all but one Horcrux).

2. Simultaneous AK's or some other form of mortal injury to both.

3. As the Horcrux magic engages automatically as we now agree it is designed to do, it seeks a Voldemort "signal" to home in on.

4. Harry, having learned the magic that controls this, and having been counseled by others to do so, tricks the soul bit to come to him rather that Voldemort, which the Horcrux does, recognizing Harry as Voldemort.

5. Voldemort finis. (Not sure what happens to Harry, maybe something dire also.)

Ciao. Barb

Solitaire - Jan 7, 2007 4:18 pm (#95 of 1297)

I posted the following on the Prophecy II thread, but it is probably more likely to be answered over here:

I could certainly be way off, but as I understand it, all of the Horcruxes must be destroyed before the final bit of soul that is Voldemort himself can be destroyed once and for all. If Harry is a Horcrux, then he will not be The One referred to in the prophecy who has the power to vanquish Voldemort ... because, being a Horcrux, Harry would have to be dead in order for Voldemort to be destroyed. Can anyone address this issue?

Okay, I'm waiting ... for either dungbombs or answers!

Solitaire

TomProffitt - Jan 7, 2007 5:10 pm (#96 of 1297)

Solitaire, I'm with you on this one. I don't feel that the Harry as Horcrux theory in anyway corresponds to what we've learned about Horcruxes in other books. The behavior of the Tom Riddle Diary Horcrux to me is a stark contrast to the behavior of Harry, I cannot logically see how the differences in behavior can be reasonably explained with Harry as a Horcrux. Not to mention vanquishing Voldemort while Harry yet lives.

T Vrana - Jan 7, 2007 8:39 pm (#97 of 1297)

Madame Librarian- I don't think the Horcrux soul bits ever come to LV. They stay safely tucked in their Horcruxes and anchor LV's main soul to this side of the veil. Otherwise DD would not have told Harry that four remained, as he would have 'used' one to regenerate. But he didn't, his main soul is the soul within his body, and it was kept on this side of the veil by the other trapped pieces of soul.

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 7, 2007 9:42 pm (#98 of 1297)

I had espoused on this subject previously prior to us even learning about the Horcruxes but here goes. I believe that Harry has something of Voldemort in him. If not then why has he felt the pain in the scar whenever Voldemort is mad, glad or having any kind of intense feeling. I was of the belief initially before HBP that it was a part of LV's soul and that would have fit in perfectly with our initial knowledge of Horcruxes. We don't know how a Horcrux is made, we only are told it is the deepest of the dark arts. It could have been planned before his attack on Harry. WE DON'T KNOW.

However in the last couple of weeks after reading the theories and research that you have all espoused on so eloquently, I have adjusted my opinion somewhat. Whatever the scar is soul, essence or whatever it does contain something of Voldemort. There has GOT to be a connection.

Harry got the scar because of one of Voldemort's curses. A curse he felt would kill Harry and I am sure that he intended Harry to be the last Horcrux. Harry's parents were disciples of Gryffindor. They were hiding in a house in Godric's Hollow which most of us assume has something to do with Gryffindor. Voldemort already knows there were few articles that belonged to Gryffindor still around and he was never going to get the sword while Dumbledore was alive. So I believe that the final part of the puzzle is HARRY. I don't think that Voldemort has realized that Harry is the sixth Horcrux but maybe he does. Maybe that is the reason he wants to be the one to kill Harry himself. Perhaps he believes that in doing so he will complete the curse and have the final piece of his soul in a place no one would ever think to look. In the body of the "Boy Who Lived"!

What this forbears about Harry's future is being written by JKR as I punch this post into my keyboard. But I do not believe that she will kill Harry off in the end. She will come up with someway of removing LV's soul from Harry, without removing the scar or killing Harry. I have FAITH.

Mickey

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 7, 2007 11:48 pm (#99 of 1297)

Mickey, nice thoughts. I think there is a possibility that DD was incorrect about Nagini, or that, as you insinuated, Harry was accidentally the "Gryffindor relic" replacement. I do not recall the sword being in DD's office during the memory when Vold asked DD for a teaching position, so it is possible he thought it would be at Godric's Hollow that night.

The behavior of the Tom Riddle Diary Horcrux to me is a stark contrast to the behavior of Harry, I cannot logically see how the differences in behavior can be reasonably explained with Harry as a Horcrux. - TomProffitt

I've thought of the soul fragment as being quite encased in the scar and, as Mickey said, this is why the scar hurts, burns, etc., not Harry's entire body, although his thoughts were definitely affected, and vise versa. I see it as possible that, in embellishing this theory, if Harry did not have a strong will of his own, he could've become like Ginny nearly did with the diary.

Mrs. Brisbee - Jan 8, 2007 7:00 am (#100 of 1297)

I could certainly be way off, but as I understand it, all of the Horcruxes must be destroyed before the final bit of soul that is Voldemort himself can be destroyed once and for all. If Harry is a Horcrux, then he will not be The One referred to in the prophecy who has the power to vanquish Voldemort ... because, being a Horcrux, Harry would have to be dead in order for Voldemort to be destroyed. Can anyone address this issue?-- Solitaire

Liz Mann was talking about this not too long ago, post #79. I don't know how to link, sorry.

Can a soulbit be moved once ensconced into an item? So, what would have happened if Diary Tom could have fully formed? Would the Voldemort soulbit have been in the shiny new body made from Ginny's death, or still in the diary? When Tom came out of the diary, was that the soulbit that came out too? Of course, when Harry stabbed the diary with the poison fang, Diary Tom was destroyed, so at that point we know there was still a connection

I wonder, did Voldemort enchant all his Horcruxes with a way to make a new body if properly activated? Was that what happened to Dumbledore's arm? I suppose that doesn't make sense, because then Voldemort would have used a Horcrux to make a body, and he seems to have been seeking other means to acquire a body instead. But the diary did have that power.

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HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 8, 2007 7:33 am (#101 of 1297)

So, what would have happened if Diary Tom could have fully formed? Mrs. Brisbee, I believe JKR addressed this and stated that Big V would have come back stronger than ever. I take that to mean that it is possible for a soul bit to be reunited with its original source.

That having been said, I don't think it should be confused with being used as a replacement. Once the original source is gone, it cannot be replaced - the Horcrux bits keep it tethered. If the original is gone, it means the bits have been destroyed.

The diary was able to interact because it was enchanted. I think JKR made sure to state that (via DD, I believe). It was drawing off Ginny, because she is an original source, which is what a soul bit (Horcrux piece) would need.

Solitaire, there are many ways to interpret that. If Harry takes the remaining Horcrux soul bit (within himself) and it is destroyed because of his actions, he has left Big V vulnerable. In this manner, he is the one with the power to put Big V in this position. Since the soul bit is in him, it is for him to decide what action to take, so it would still coincide with the prophecy.

I don't feel that the Harry as Horcrux theory in anyway corresponds to what we've learned about Horcruxes in other books. TomProffitt, we really don't have much information regarding Horcruxes. There is too much leeway for someone who writes with such precision. That in itself makes me suspicious. If there was nothing to hide with regard to Harry, why not give the information as to how it works? What would that give away? I can see nothing except that we would be able to figure out what really happened when Lilly was killed and Harry was AK’d.

EDIT: Big V told us that his soul was ripped from his body. Both Horcrux spells and AK spells deal with soul - dispersion/expulsion, respectively.

Choices - Jan 8, 2007 11:14 am (#102 of 1297)

I just can not buy into the idea that Harry is a Horcrux...even an accidental one. I can accept that Voldemort planned to make a Horcrux from Harry's death. When Voldemort set out to kill Harry and James, why would he have said the Horcrux incantation before hand (if that is even possible)? He had no idea that he would not return from Godric's Hollow alive - he would have had plenty of time to do the Horcrux ritual after he got home. If Voldemort had planned to make Harry a Horcrux, then why would he have planned to kill him? That certainly makes no sense. I believe the AK did exactly what Dumbledore said - it transferred some of Voldemort's "powers" to Harry, not part of his soul. Harry is so full of love that I don't see how a piece of Voldemort's damaged, loveless soul could exist in Harry.

I believe the Horcrux ritual involves removing the torn piece of soul by saying the incantation and extracting the soul bit with a wand (much as Dumbledore removes memories from his mind) and placing it into the intended Horcrux. I don't think saying the incantation ahead of time would work, nor do I think the soul bit would just come flying out of Voldemort when the AK hit him and fly into Harry. He had killed James and Lily so there were two torn soul bits - why didn't both come flying out and go into Harry? Does Harry have two pieces of Voldemort's soul in his scar? Somehow, I just can't believe that is so. For all the years that Dumbledore has watched Harry (more closely than he could possibly imagine), I can't believe Dumbledore would not notice a bit of Voldemort's soul if it was in Harry.

HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 8, 2007 1:07 pm (#103 of 1297)

He had no idea that he would not return from Godric's Hollow alive - he would have had plenty of time to do the Horcrux ritual after he got home. That statement and those similar show speculation as to how a Horcrux is actually made. Until we know for sure, we won't be able to figure it out. By then, we'll have all we need. But why the need for speculation? Knowing how it works could only foil what transpired that night in GH. Not sure if it would help in any other way, so why keep it from the readers?

I can't believe Dumbledore would not notice a bit of Voldemort's soul if it was in Harry I am not as sure as you are that he did not know before he died. He is not a character who likes to show his hand.

I think he had suspicions for a long time about the Horcruxes and look how long and hard he labored to discover the truth about that. He kept his distance from Harry in Book 5.

Soul Search - Jan 8, 2007 2:19 pm (#104 of 1297)

We have too much evidence that something of Voldemort was transferred to Harry to completely ignore the, possibly unpleasant, idea that Harry or his scar is a Voldemort Horcrux.

A big deal is made of Harry's scar, starting when Hagrid brings Harry to #4 Privet Drive. When McGonagall asks Dumbledore if he can do something about the scar, Dumbledore replies that Harry will that scar forever. It plays some sort of role in every book, and especially in GoF and OotP.

In SS, Harry's scar hurts when Voldemort is around. In CoS, Harry speaks Parseltongue and Dumbledore says that Voldemort transferred something of himself to Harry with his attempt to kill him. The "something" wasn't physical, it had to be part of Voldemort's "spirit" or soul. There is no canon reference to anything that Voldemort could transfer to Harry except a part of his soul.

In GoF and OotP the concept that Harry and Voldemort are somehow linked is built up ... big time. Obviously, they are linked by the part of Voldemort's soul that is in Harry.

We learn about Horcruxes in HBP. A Horcrux is the term given for anything that holds a part of someone's soul removed from the person's body. REVELATION. A Horcrux is the only canon description that fits what Voldemort could have transferred to Harry.

Harry has a piece of Voldemort's soul in his scar. We have been told that is called a Horcrux.

Madame Librarian - Jan 8, 2007 4:37 pm (#105 of 1297)

Soul Search,

Though I don't agree that Harry is necessarily a Horcrux, I do agree that his scar is very important. DD not only said that Harry would have the scar forever, when asked if he could do something about it, he answers,

"Even if I could, I wouldn't. Scars can come in useful...." (PS, chap. 1).

Perhaps the usefulness DD is referring to is the scar being able to act as a Voldemort "radar." I think it's more than that. We'll find out in Book 7.

Ciao. Barb

HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 8, 2007 5:26 pm (#106 of 1297)

Soul Search, I think the point you bring up in stating that we have seen souls being transferred is a very good one. I don't recall anyone after all magical powers to anyone, except the situation with Harry.

Also, remember this bit from SS:

‘Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?’ Harry said, thunderstruck.

‘It certainly seems so.’ DD's response.

Choices - Jan 8, 2007 6:06 pm (#107 of 1297)

Dumbledore - "Unless I'm much mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he gave you that scar. Not something he intended to do, I'm sure...."

Harry - "Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?"

Now, Dumbledore says Voldemort transferred some of his POWERS to Harry, and then Harry rephrases that and says Voldemort put a bit of himself in Harry. Dumbledore only discusses powers - Parseltongue, resourcefulness, determination, disregard for rules. Harry says that the Sorting Hat saw Slytherin's power in him and thus wanted to place Harry in Slytherin, but he asked it not to do so. If you read that part in the chapter Dobby's Reward in COS, you will see that they are talking about powers, not pieces of soul.

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 8, 2007 7:00 pm (#108 of 1297)

HH11 and Choices, is it a full moon? There are synchronicities going on... I just posted nearly the identical topic on Prophecy II thread.

Does anyone else think Harry being "thunderstruck" is more than a coincidence in that quote?

T Vrana - Jan 8, 2007 8:00 pm (#109 of 1297)

Choices- While they may not have specifically discussed soul bits, nor did they discuss the prophecy or Horcruxes. Jo does have a 7 book story to tell.

We really do not have any better reason why some of LV's powers may have been transferred. It is an odd concept that casting an AK that rebounded and destroyed LV's body somehow transferred powers, but nothing else, when we know LV had two recent tears in his soul, and that a soul bit can be torn free of the main soul and stored. Whether the Horcrux spell is performed before the murder, and it all went wrong, or the torn bits were freed from the main soul when LV's body was blasted away, it seems a decent explanation that a free bit of LV's soul could give Harry some of LV's powers.

Also, DD mentions that Nagini may be a Horcrux, opening the door for living things to be Horcruxes (actually, I do not think Harry is a proper Horcrux, but that he is toting a bit of LV's soul around).

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 8, 2007 8:21 pm (#110 of 1297)

I agree T Vrana if "his powers" are not a part of his soul what are they. Voldemort did not lose his ability to Parseltongue. He did not lose his determination or resourcefulness. These powers were merely split and some of them ended up in Harry. I also agree that "Harry is not a proper Horcrux but toting a bit of LV's soul around".

I have been tossing around the thought that after all of the other Horcruxes have been destroyed when Harry and Voldemort are in the final battle and a fatal curse has been cast upon Voldemort if he might not get that final piece of his soul back from Harry. Not the scar but the part of Voldemort soul it possesses. Then after having to live in Harry for so long that piece of Voldemort's soul will also contain some of Harry & Lily's love.

Heck I can almost see Voldemort in the future running the ice cream shop in Hogsmeade. He could call it "Voldie's 57 Flavors".

Mickey

Sorry I just couldn't resist that.

Soul Search - Jan 8, 2007 8:53 pm (#111 of 1297)

MickeyCee3948,

57 Varieties are pickles. Ice cream is some other number.

Actually, Voldemort selling pickles might be more appropriate. After all, only a small soul-bit would be from Harry, the rest would still be Voldemort.

TheSaint - Jan 9, 2007 1:50 am (#112 of 1297)

Choices - Dumbledore only discusses powers - Parseltongue, resourcefulness, determination, disregard for rules.

The last three are not powers, they are characteristics, how did those transfer as powers?

The number is 31.

TomProffitt - Jan 9, 2007 8:12 am (#113 of 1297)

We learn in CoS that a person can be possessed without having a Horcrux or "soul bit" within them (Ginny). Just as the Diary was the avenue for Ginny's possession, the scar was most likely the avenue Riddle used to possess Harry in OP, but it could well have been the blood he took from Harry in GoF. Riddle's possession of Harry in OP is not an indication that Harry is a Horcrux.

We learn in PS/SS that Lily's love protected Harry and made it painful for Harry and one possessed by Riddle (Quirrell) to touch. So painful in fact that it caused the death of one and nearly caused the Death of another.

We learn in OP from Dumbledore that the love that Harry has for other people drove Riddle out when he was possessing Harry, for this love was too much for Riddle to bear. From the examples of PS/SS and OP on Harry in contact with Riddle I find it highly unlikely that Harry would have lived if he had been a Horcrux. At the very least I would think the Horcrux would have been destroyed or cast out by the Love in Harry.

Recently on Jo's web site in the rumours section she explicitly discounted a theory that the two characters (Harry & Riddle) would merge in the conclusion. While she did not specifically rule out a theory involving Harry as a Horcrux, I feel that this statement implicitly rules out the Harry as Horcrux theory.

While I am able to understand and follow the logic of the Harry as Horcrux theory I do not find it compelling in the least.

Mrs Brisbee - Jan 9, 2007 8:51 am (#114 of 1297)

At the very least I would think the Horcrux would have been destroyed or cast out by the Love in Harry.

One would think so, but, Harry carried around the Horcrux Diary, conversed with it, conversed with Diary Tom after he came out of the diary (and made Diary Tom angry enough so his eyes glinted red), and... nothing. The scar alarm that goes off around Voldemort didn't react at all to that Horcrux. The Diary didn't seem to be adversely effected by being held by Harry. So it is quite likely that only the main part of Voldemort's soul causes the Love Protection to kick in.

Madame Librarian - Jan 9, 2007 9:06 am (#115 of 1297)

TomProffitt--

I like your thinking on this issue regarding the protection Lily cast at that crucial moment. I always remember the use of the phrase "ancient magic." We've had a couple of hints from DD that this ancient magic is very powerful, especially the Love-motivated thing Lily did. I also can offer a guess that Lily may have known a bit about Horcruxes herself, and was onto Voldemort for this exact thing (that's why she and James were such targets of his). Remember how much a favorite Lily was with Slughorn. An interesting trip in the Pensieve might show him confiding in her about a curious conversation he once had with a former student, Tom Riddle.

For this among other reasons (general plot dénouement mostly) I don't see Harry as the final Horcrux. Yes, the powers mentioned above were transferred, but despite the pain they cause Harry, they have all turned out to be an advantage in some way or another.

Before we knew anything at all about Horcruxes, I, too, speculated that the blood from Harry now coursing through Voldemort's body and the ability Harry has to access Voldemort's mind (though blocked now) will somehow come into play in defeating Voldemort or, at least, having some important impact on how the two do battle with each other.

Ciao. Barb

Steve Newton - Jan 9, 2007 9:47 am (#116 of 1297)

I have come at this from a different direction and wonder if the Horcrux in Harry, if it exists, would not have been destroyed but the soul bit changed. A kinder and gentler, more loving Voldemort soul bit. And, perhaps this will be the vanquishing we all desire.

Soul Search - Jan 9, 2007 9:50 am (#117 of 1297)

While the thought of Harry's scar being a Horcrux is unpleasant, I don't think all is lost. There are a few redeeming possibilities.

It is curious that Dumbledore didn't make the slightest hint in HBP that Harry has a part of Voldemort's soul in him. The subject was discussed in earlier books, but in the book where Horcruxes were discussed at length and Dumbledore gave Harry a list of outstanding Horcruxes, he never mentions even the possibility that Harry is one. I can't see Dumbledore not, at least, entertaining the concept. After all, it was he who commented on Harry's scar in SS, explained to Harry how he was a Parselmouth in CoS, and explained the connection between Harry and Voldemort in OotP. It would be dangerously remiss of Dumbledore to tell Harry there were four remaining Horcruxes and leave out the one in his scar.

Dumbledore's not telling Harry about his scar Horcrux suggests to me that Harry's scar isn't, or is no longer, a Horcrux.

There are two possibilities for the "no longer" alternative.

Voldemort's soul bit returned to Voldemort when he used Harry's blood for his new body. Hence, Dumbledore's smile when he heard of it.

The soul-bit returned to Voldemort when Voldemort tried to possess Harry in OotP.

Both alternatives support the idea that Harry's scar held a bit of Voldemort's soul, but wasn't a true Horcrux; it wasn't tightly bound to Harry since Voldemort didn't get the chance to complete the Horcrux-making process. The soul-bit was just hanging around Harry until it could return to Voldemort.

Supporting the second alternative is Harry not having any more Voldemort dreams or having his scar hurt even once after the OotP possession and throughout HBP. I know, Dumbledore said Voldemort was doing Occlumency, but Harry's scar hurt in OotP even when Voldemort was just feeling a strong emotion. Seems Voldemort should have felt a strong emotion now and again, and especially after he heard Dumbledore was dead. It would be in Voldemort's nature to let loose on the Occlumency just to give Harry a look at how pleased he was and to frighten him with what's coming.

I conclude that Dumbledore dreaded telling Harry he had a piece of Voldemort's soul in him and was quite relieved when Harry informed him he hadn't had any pain or dreams. Note that Dumbledore asked Harry about pain and dreams shortly after leaving the Dursleys; it was uppermost in his mind!

If, after all, Harry's scar is still a Horcrux it could be useful. We have Dumbledore's flip comment in SS about scars being useful. And, in HBP, Dumbledore says making a living object a Horcrux is "a risky business." How is Harry going to know that another object really is a Horcrux? Maybe his scar will tell him.

While the destruction of the diary and ring Horcruxes isn't encouraging, I am not convinced that destroying a Horcrux is necessarily fatal to the living-object Horcrux. I am encouraged by the fact that Voldemort couldn't have placed any protections on the Harry's-scar-Horcrux. Harry should survive the destruction of his scar Horcrux.

He does, however, have to figure out that his scar is a Horcrux, and before he tries to kill Voldemort. That "neither can live while the other survives" part of the prophecy bothers me, though, when I consider Harry's scar being a Horcrux: too many unpleasant options.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

I like Steve Newton's suggestion that in Harry Voldemort's soul-bit would have changed from Harry's "love" and would destroy Voldemort when it returned to him.

This idea fits with "love" being Harry's weapon against Voldemort and allows Harry to defeat Voldemort without committing murder.

It would also mean Voldemort, by trying to make a Horcrux with his murder of Harry, would be the cause of his eventual downfall. I like that a lot. Does this outcome fit the prophecy? I see some discrepancies.

T Vrana - Jan 9, 2007 10:02 am (#118 of 1297)

I agree that it is LV’s main soul that reacts to Lily's love and protection, and Harry's love, not the bits. Good point about the diary, Mrs. Brisbee.

LV's possession of Quirrell manifested itself with an actual physical second head. But LV was able to possess Harry with no apparent blending of their physical bodies.

1)LV possessed Nagini to attack Arthur

2)DD thinks Nagini is a Horcrux

3)Harry saw the whole thing as though he were Nagini

4)Harry was possessed, like Nagini, in the MoM

5)Harry has LV's powers for some unexplained reason.

6) When Ginny was possessed by Riddle she could not remember it. Harry does, this possession is different. Harry feels they are intertwined, he can't tell where he ends and LV begins.

An LV soul bit still works for me....

Soul Search- I really liked the idea that LV's soul bit returned after the possession, but then remembered that Harry can still understand Parseltongue in HBP.

Having DD mention their connection so close to our learning about Horcruxes would have been a giveaway to readers, I think.

The Newton scenario would fit the prophecy, Harry's love would still be the real power that defeats LV and je knows not.

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 9, 2007 1:20 pm (#119 of 1297)

Soul Search-I like your idea that LV's soul bit returned to him during the possession in OotP. I hadn't thought about that but I don't think it is merely a coincidence that Harry is no longer having dreams or feeling pair from his scar. Great Job!!

Mickey

Soul Search - Jan 9, 2007 2:34 pm (#120 of 1297)

But, as T Vrana points out, Harry could understand Parseltongue in the Gaunt pensive scene. If I take it that JKR intentionally included Parseltongue in that scene to show that Harry could still understand it, with Dumbledore asking him about it for emphasis, I am less comfortable with Voldemort's soul-bit being gone.

Still, we can always say that a language, once learned, can't be so easily erased and let it go at that.

Another note. When Dumbledore was explaining Harry's ability to speak Parseltongue in CoS he mentioned "powers," plural, but we haven't seen anything else ... yet. I am banking on Legilimency, since Voldemort is supposed to be so good at it and we saw Harry see into Snape's memory in OotP.

By the way, "soul-bit removed by possession" wasn't my idea originally, but was suggested early in this topic. I liked the idea then and haven't seen any serious objections in canon.

T Vrana - Jan 9, 2007 4:09 pm (#121 of 1297)

The other problem with the soul bit removed by possession...how will Harry ever know? Who will explain it to the reader? If Harry doesn't know he was a Horcrux, and never felt any different, and DD is dead...Unless Snape knows something...But how would that be important in Book 7?

"By the way Harry, you used to be a Horcrux but you're not anymore, so, no worries."

I like the idea, but it would be anticlimactic that he was a Horcrux all this time, he didn't know, we didn't know, and now he finds out he was, past tense.

Choices - Jan 9, 2007 5:53 pm (#122 of 1297)

Soul Search - "Still, we can always say that a language, once learned, can't be so easily erased and let it go at that."

Sorry, I can't let it go at that. I don't think Harry ever really learned Parseltongue. He was able to use it at the sight of a snake, but he didn't realize he was making hissing sounds. When he speaks Parseltongue, he hears it in English in his head and somehow it comes out in snake language. He received Parseltongue as a gift from Voldemort, but (to be nit-picky) I don't think we can say he actually learned it.

HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 9, 2007 7:04 pm (#123 of 1297)

One thing I wanted to add regarding Big V having Harry's blood. I am leaning toward the idea that since Big V has this "unity" within himself, this very thing would now enable Harry to destroy Horcruxes without the type of ramifications we are led to believe DD suffered (the blackened hand). So, now, Big V has a bit of Harry in him and Harry has a bit of Big V.

The glint in DD's eye was during the time DD was researching Big V's Horcruxes and I am guessing he knew what was involved in destroying them. Perhaps that is why he took Harry along into the cave?

Regarding the Horcrux having been removed - I don't see it from a literary standpoint. I just don't think that is the case.

TheSaint - Jan 10, 2007 12:52 am (#124 of 1297)

Did DD not say the reason he no longer had dreams, etc. was that Voldie was using Occlumency against him? DD believes the connection is still there, only being blocked, so removal would not be the case.

I believe that the theft of Harry's blood makes Voldie and Harry complete, body and soul. Each has one from the other.

HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 10, 2007 4:42 am (#125 of 1297)

I believe that the theft of Harry's blood makes Voldie and Harry complete, body and soul. Each has one from the other.

I agree, TheSaint. From here, we need to figure out what purpose it will serve.

journeymom - Jan 10, 2007 12:39 pm (#126 of 1297)

"Each has one from the other." Ooh! In the yin-yang concept, each has a part of the other in it. From Wikipedia:

"Part of Yin is in Yang and part of Yang is in Yin. The dots in each serve:

as a reminder that there are always traces of one in the other. For example, there is always light within the dark (e.g., the stars at night); these qualities are never completely one or the other.

as a reminder that absolute extreme side transforms instantly into the opposite, or that the labels Yin and Yang are conditioned by an observer's point of view. For example, the hardest stone is easiest to break. This can show that absolute discrimination between the two is artificial."

I suppose that's kind of what you've been alluding to here. Though I don't think the second point above applies to the Harry-Voldemort idea.

TheSaint - Jan 10, 2007 2:54 pm (#127 of 1297)

Perhaps Voldie has created a sort of Horcrux for Harry. Maybe he cannot die while his blood still lives...or some such, a way to live through the death that seems to be required of him. A body tether as opposed to a soul one. Would that make DD's gleam?

Thom Matheson - Jan 10, 2007 8:03 pm (#128 of 1297)

I'm having trouble putting my arms around the connection concept. I just see that Voldemort needed an enemy for the blood part of the rebirth. He choose Harry because of his inability to take Harry previously and the prophecy. The fact that Voldemort can now touch Harry pleases Voldemort because now he can complete the prophecy without the AK rebound happening again. I just don't see it any deeper then that.

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 10, 2007 8:29 pm (#129 of 1297)

Only thing is Thom is that Voldemort doesn't know the entire prophecy. And the prophecy had nothing to do with the AK rebounding it was Lily's love.

Mickey

haymoni - Jan 11, 2007 6:00 am (#130 of 1297)

So if the protection disappears when Harry turns 17 and Voldy doesn't know it, he'll think that he is stronger than he truly is.

HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 11, 2007 6:55 am (#131 of 1297)

Thom M, if you recall, when Harry told DD that Big V used his blood, there was a momentary glint in DD's eye[/b] - May have even been described as triumph. That is what has us speculating with regard to this blood connection between Big V and Harry. Feel free to toss any ideas into the fold. It can only help.

haymoni - that is a very good point. He tends to underestimate his adversaries and overestimate himself.

Thom Matheson - Jan 11, 2007 6:21 pm (#132 of 1297)

HH, If I'm Voldemort, I would be a little concerned that lightning could strike again. I just took it to mean that Voldemort could AK Harry now without fear or doubt that there will be another rebound effect screwing up another of my Horcruxes. That pesky brat of a half-blood Potter keeps messing up all of his plans.

HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 11, 2007 8:01 pm (#133 of 1297)

Remember how arrogant he is, though - he might feel as though his bases are covered. Then again, he might take measures to avoid a similar circumstance but I am quite confident he will be lax in some area. DD and Big V both pointed out that he had forgotten a minor detail with big repercussions.

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 11, 2007 8:10 pm (#134 of 1297)

On a tangent, it seems the diary acted exactly like a Pensieve in CoS. As far as I can tell, the memory with Hagrid was objective, and Harry's presence in it was just like when he entered other pensieve memories. But Tom chose to show the memory to Harry. And Tom called himself a memory, not a soul fragment, in that book. It makes me wonder if other Horcruxes and their soul fragments contain an important memory, and if Harry will be able to view the memory therein as Pensieve-like (objective). Seems like it would take up many many pages, though. I just found it to be interesting.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 15, 2007 1:02 pm (#135 of 1297)

During the first trip into Hogsmeade made by the students in HBP chapter twelve Argus Filch in addition to checking the students names off the list, he is also triple checking them with his Secrecy Sensor.

Filch was standing at the oak front doors as usual checking off the names of people who had permission to go into Hogsmeade. The process took even longer than normal as Filch was triple-checking everybody with his Secrecy Sensor. "What does it matter if we're smuggling Dark stuff OUT?" demanded Ron, eyeing the long thin Secrecy Sensor with apprehension. "Surely you ought to be checking what we bring back IN?" (HBP Large Print Edition page 314).

The following passage brought up two questions.

First, what is the significance of Filch triple checking everyone with the Secrecy Sensor as they leave Hogwarts and the exchange between Ron and Filch on the subject?

Second, on a related point the fact that Filch checks everyone as they leave seems to indicate that there may be a Horcrux or other Dark object within Hogwarts that Dumbledore does not want getting out. If so what is that object?

T Vrana - Jan 15, 2007 7:11 pm (#136 of 1297)

Nathan- This has come up on the Malfoy's Original Task and the vow thread. Given that DD thought LV was after something when he asked for the teaching position all those years ago, now Draco has a task to do, it is something LV and no one has ever accomplished, Draco seems insanely confident he can do it (he's a bit of a coward after all, so killing DD seems beyond his normal level of bravery), and Filch is checking students leaving the castle, it has been suggested that Malfoy's task originally assigned by LV was to get something in or out of Hogwarts.

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 23, 2007 4:18 pm (#137 of 1297)

Reposted from another thread...

xray wrote - It appears to me that after the soul is split, the fragment is then encased in an object.

Absolutely, I agree that Sluggy’s quote could be interpreted in the manner you do.

How can you have a Horcrux without a soul fragment to place in it? The AK spell did not kill Harry and it did not kill himself. He was in effect vaporized, but not dead. So where could the soul fragment have come from? James' death? Lily's death? Which one? Wouldn't this ruin the Horcrux? If only a pre-spell and the killing spell were required, wouldn't James' death have made the final Horcrux, assuming that there is no final part to complete the Horcrux?

It’s been theorised that we do not know how much time passed between Lily’s death and the Harry-rebounded-AK (as specifically left vague by JKR in film of PS). It is quite possible that after killing James and Lily, Vold then prepared (cast the spell) for the GG Sword to be the final Horcrux with Harry’s death. This plan was not successful due to the rebounding, and the fragment of soul meant for the Sword entered Harry instead. I feel the theory is based more on the emphasis given to lines in CoS (‘Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?’, Harry said, thunderstruck is my personal favourite) and various other clues about Vold being inside of Harry’s head, the connection, etc., and less to do with the unknown mechanics of how Horcrux magic works.

As an aside, I am now wondering if we have seen GG Sword prior to it appearing in the (GG’s) Sorting Hat in the Chamber? Seems somehow very important that Harry retrieved it from the Hat if (speculating) it was intended to be the final Horcrux and was last seen at Godric’s Hollow. Is my brain malfunctioning or can anyone recall it being in DD’s office prior to the end of CoS?

xray - Jan 23, 2007 6:00 pm (#138 of 1297)

It is quite possible that after killing James and Lily, Vold then prepared (cast the spell) for the GG Sword to be the final Horcrux with Harry’s death - me and my shadow 813

That's very doubtful because we should have seen it in Priori Incantatem. There was nothing cast between killing Lily and Bertha Jorkins. If there was, we'd have seen it.

Besides, why'd he just tell Lily to step aside if he wanted to "cast his spell for the GG Sword" first then kill Harry. I don't think he expected Lily to stand there and watch.

It makes much more sense to have to cast an encasing spell after the kill, transporting the soul fragment into an object than it does to cast a spell before, then cast a kill spell.

T Vrana - Jan 23, 2007 6:15 pm (#139 of 1297)

xray- I believe he killed Lily before trying to kill Harry. Did we see the AK meant for Harry come from the wand? I can't recall.

xray - Jan 23, 2007 9:40 pm (#140 of 1297)

I believe he killed Lily before trying to kill Harry. Did we see the AK meant for Harry come from the wand? I can't recall. - T Vrana

Hi T Vrana

Yes that's correct, Voldemort did kill Lily before trying to kill Harry and no we did not see the AK meant for Harry. On another forum we surmised that spells that don't "complete" aren't represented in the Priori Incantatem. There was an Crucio spell cast by Voldemort that hit a gravestone when Harry jumped out of the way and it did not show up in the Priori Incantatem, yet three others did (represented by screams).

What I was referring to was that Voldemort didn't plan on killing Lily even after he killed James.

From PoA, page 179

And then he heard it again.... Someone was screaming, screaming inside his head... a woman...

"Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!"

"Stand aside, you silly girl... stand aside, now...."

"Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead"

And from SS, page 294:

"How touching..." it hissed. "I always value bravery... Yes, boy, your parents were brave.... I killed your father first; and he put up a courageous fight... but your mother needn't have died... she was trying to protect you....

I was claiming earlier (in another thread) that I don't believe Harrycrux was possible. Neither him nor his scar is a Horcrux. One of the points I used was that in the Priori Incantatem we don't see a spell being cast between the Avada Kedavra that killed Lily and the Avada Kedavra that killed Bertha Jorkins. We did see the effects of the Crucio spell (screams) during the Priori Incantatem event in Goblet of Fire. Supporters of Harrycrux contend that this pre-spell was necessary before the killing spell which is how Harry (or his scar) became a Horcrux.

(Sorry but I started the discussion in a 'wrong' thread and moved it here... You can see my previous arguments here, here, and here.)

TheSaint - Jan 23, 2007 11:47 pm (#141 of 1297)

Supporters of Harrycrux contend that this pre-spell was necessary before the killing spell which is how Harry (or his scar) became a Horcrux.

I don't contend this. There has to be a way to select the piece, but not knowing anything about how it is cast, or what in entails, I will not venture to guess.

I myself think the soul bit in Harry may have been placed there by another. A little lesson in love.....

T Vrana - Jan 24, 2007 6:21 am (#142 of 1297)

LV had just torn his soul twice when the rebounding AK destroyed his body and set free his main soul. It is possible that the torn bits did not remain with the main soul through this trauma. Why and how a piece might have attached itself to Harry remains to be explained. But for me it is a distinct possibility.

I myself think the soul bit in Harry may have been placed there by another. A little lesson in love.....

Saint- Very interesting idea...are you assuming Lily?

xray - Jan 24, 2007 9:39 am (#143 of 1297)

LV had just torn his soul twice when the rebounding AK destroyed his body and set free his main soul. It is possible that the torn bits did not remain with the main soul through this trauma. Why and how a piece might have attached itself to Harry remains to be explained. But for me it is a distinct possibility. - T Vrana

It may be possible in Rowling's world but highly unlikely; she to leans toward logically explained events whereby the reader has a chance to figure them out; there is no precedent set for creating a Horcrux in this way.

There has to be a way to select the piece, but not knowing anything about how it is cast, or what in entails, I will not venture to guess. - TheSaint

That's the fun part... trying to guess Smile

You do have a point though. If Voldemort was intending on using Harry's death as one of his "significant deaths" to create a Horcrux with, there would have to be some way to "select" that part of the soul that was fractured. I'd guess that the Horcrux creating spell simply uses intent by the caster. We see intent as a requirement in almost every spell cast.

I myself think the soul bit in Harry may have been placed there by another. A little lesson in love.

That's an interesting idea but Lily didn't know what a Horcrux was much less how they were made; she had no idea what Lord Voldemort was up to other than to kill Harry. At this point in time, neither did Dumbledore.

T Vrana - Jan 24, 2007 9:47 am (#144 of 1297)

It may be possible in Rowling's world but highly unlikely; she to leans toward logically explained events whereby the reader has a chance to figure them out; there is no precedent set for creating a Horcrux in this way.

I think the logic fits, actually. I don't think Harry is a Horcrux. I think he is Horcrux-like. That is, we know, from Jo, that murder tears the soul. We know that the rebounding AK was powerful enough to rip LV's soul from his body. This being the case, was the trauma enough to complete the tears LV had made in killing Lily and James, and allow those pieces to separate from the main soul? If yes, and I think it is possible, could one of those pieces have been attracted to Harry? Why? I'm not sure yet. But we have no other logical explanation why Harry has so many of LV's abilities and a link to him.

EDIT- Odd thought forming. Could a piece of LV's soul be attracted to baby Harry because, though he wanted to destroy Harry, he also wanted to be Harry, or be like Harry, with a powerful mother and father willing to die for him?

TheSaint - Jan 24, 2007 9:55 am (#145 of 1297)

'At this point in time, neither did Dumbledore.'

There I think you are wrong. DD has an idea...I mean, if Hagrid thinks he is not gone for good, then surely DD does. I am also sure that DD knows about Horcruxes, Slughorn does say something about wizards of a certain caliber being interested, but his insistence that it not be taught at Hogwarts is clue enough.

Lily is not my thought at all. But there is another that has been thought to be at Godric’s Hollow that night.

xray - Jan 24, 2007 11:54 am (#146 of 1297)

I'm certain Dumbledore knew about Horcruxes ("It's a banned subject at Hogwarts, you know. . . . Dumbledore's particularly fierce about it. . . ."). I am sure he also knew that Voldemort had created a Horcrux since he expected him to return sometime in the near future.

However I contend that, at the time, Dumbledore did not know what Lord Voldemort was intent on doing (and why) other than to kill Harry. It was all about the prophecy.

By adding that statement At this point in time, neither did Dumbledore, I merely wanted to affirm my position that Lily had no idea that Voldemort was intent upon creating a Horcrux from the death of Harry. It was merely a pre-emptive strike on a possible defense "Dumbledore may have told her."

Die Zimtzicke - Jan 24, 2007 12:17 pm (#147 of 1297)

Okay, new rumor floating around various boards...if you've seen the publicity stuff in book shops for DH, there seems to be something depicted that looks like a badge. Various people have suggested after seeing the banners that the publishers got a tip off and that Tom's old prefect badge is one of the Horcruxes.

Anyone else want to comment on that idea? I like it myself. Would it be lying around at the school, or someplace else?

haymoni - Jan 24, 2007 1:53 pm (#148 of 1297)

Maybe it isn't a badge, but a shield - "Special Services to the school". Was Ron burping up slugs on a cup or was it just a plaque?

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 24, 2007 4:00 pm (#149 of 1297)

xray wrote - I was claiming earlier (in another thread) that I don't believe Harrycrux was possible. Neither him nor his scar is a Horcrux. One of the points I used was that in the Priori Incantatem we don't see a spell being cast between the Avada Kedavra that killed Lily and the Avada Kedavra that killed Bertha Jorkins. We did see the effects of the Crucio spell (screams) during the Priori Incantatem event in Goblet of Fire. Supporters of Harrycrux contend that this pre-spell was necessary before the killing spell which is how Harry (or his scar) became a Horcrux.

xray, this is interesting. I'm not sure I agree, but thanks for sharing your theories from another forum. It's good food for thought. My first reaction is that Priori Incantatem might show spells/hexes/curses inflicted on people but not things. As you said the Crucio that hit the stone did not register. Perhaps (who knows) it could be why the encasing spell would not register. I don't own GoF so cannot go into it at the moment as deeply as I'd like.

Die Z., thanks for the rumour bulletin. Could be prefect, (big)head boy, or Special Services.

haymoni, it is a shield - "Because Filch made me polish his shield about fifty times in detention,' said Ron resentfully." (The Very Secret Diary chapter) Also from there: "Riddle's burnished gold shield was tucked away in a corner cabinet."

Could've been what Vold was trying to get out when he interviewed with DD? Could've been what Filch was scanning people for to make sure it didn't get out of Hogwarts? But I don't see how it could be a Horcrux if Ron handled it for an hour. Hmm. Maybe Vold was putting the shield back when he interviewed with DD.

HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 24, 2007 4:35 pm (#150 of 1297)

I strongly feel as though the Horcrux spell must be begun in advance. When the AK hits, the effects of that spell combine and the soul bit is directed into the Horcrux object. If Big V began the spell on his way into Harry's room (say, as he ascended the stairs, for example), he would have been very upset to see Lily standing in the way of his "prize" Horcrux. It would explain why he insisted she stand aside but he may have lost his temper and AK'd her. With the charm in place, we don't know what happened. The snag is that he went ahead with her death and AK'ing Harry, which leaves me wondering if he knew his magical 7 had been foiled. After her death, he had time to perform another Horcrux spell.

My take on killings in their world is that a soul bit is ripped off (completely) with a murder. If it is not "preserved" with a prior Horcrux spell, that soul bit is lost forever. If a spell is made, the Horcrux spell captures that bit, preventing it from "dissipating", keeping it indefinitely in the specified object. The object is actually what the spell is put on.

Back to Big V. Slughorn states that murder rips the soul and Big V stated that he was ripped from his body. Both times Horcruxes were an important part of the setting. I don't think it was by chance.

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Thom Matheson - Jan 24, 2007 5:53 pm (#151 of 1297)

Didn't Crouch use the Priori spell to determine that the wand that drew the Dark Mark was Harry's, back in Goblet. That was a thing

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 24, 2007 6:18 pm (#152 of 1297)

Thom, I checked the Lex and yes, it was Amos that used it on Harry’s wand. Regarding my above post, I don’t know if casting the Dark Mark is the same as hitting an object. The Mark is an object but isn’t cast upon an object (don't feel the sky could qualify as a solid object). So it might register whereas spells upon objects do not. My response also is, if in the Priori Incantatem we don't see a spell being cast between the Avada Kedavra that killed Lily and the Avada Kedavra that killed Bertha Jorkins, then why do we not see the AK that was cast upon Harry?

Choices - Jan 24, 2007 6:29 pm (#153 of 1297)

I believe there is one spell - the one Diggory used to test Harry's wand for the Dark Mark is Priori Incantatem. What happened to Voldemort's wand was Priori Incantatem, which I think is more an effect than a spell. When brother wands go against each other, they join and one is forced to expel the spells it cast, starting with the most recent.

xray - Jan 24, 2007 9:04 pm (#154 of 1297)

My response also is, if in the Priori Incantatem we don't see a spell being cast between the Avada Kedavra that killed Lily and the Avada Kedavra that killed Bertha Jorkins, then why do we not see the AK that was cast upon Harry? - me and my shadow 813

Because the AK that was cast upon Harry vaporized Voldemort but didn't kill him like it was supposed to. In essence, it failed. We already have proof of a failed spell didn't show up in Priori Incantatem. See one of my previous posts.

Thom Matheson - Jan 25, 2007 5:17 am (#155 of 1297)

good explanation Choices. That says it for me.

morticia - Jan 25, 2007 8:25 pm (#156 of 1297)

I have looked but can't find any evidence that Harry's scar is a Horcrux. However, without more information it is the only way that I can see that it makes sense for the books to go on and the only way that the prophecy makes sense to me.

"the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal" literally, with his soul.

"either must die at the hand of the other" because they seek each other out

"for neither can live" both must die in order to fully 'vanquish' Voldemort

"while the other survives" Snape lives.

I guess it's back to the Snape thread to fully discuss this one, but I think that DD may have especially positioned Snape near Voldemort because he understands that Harry's scar is a Horcrux and he has instructed Snape (the only one with a fighting chance, IMO) to kill Voldemort AFTER Voldemort has killed Harry and Harry has destroyed the other Horcruxes.

The similarities between Harry, Snape and Voldemort are very striking IMO and they are not accidental.

If DD knows all of this then it explains why he dissolves into a puddle every time he looks at Harry. It also explains why he only gives Harry info on a need to know basis (doesn't want it accidentally passed on) and why he never told Harry why Snape is loyal.

M

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 25, 2007 8:43 pm (#157 of 1297)

morticia, I completely agree it seems a likely progression literary-wise (rather than a "red herring").

DD may have especially positioned Snape near Voldemort because he understands that Harry's scar is a Horcrux and he has instructed Snape (the only one with a fighting chance, IMO) to kill Voldemort AFTER Voldemort has killed Harry and Harry has destroyed the other Horcruxes. - morticia

eeeek! This is fathomable but... eek!

The similarities between Harry, Snape and Voldemort are very striking IMO and they are not accidental.

Totally agree, they are a triangulation in my opinion.

It also explains why he only gives Harry info on a need to know basis

But this is a quintessential pattern in a "quest" story. The wise one says "okay, I'll tell you all you need to know", but of course he (or she!) doesn't. It is *rite of passage* formula. Not necessarily Harry must die - I hope!

morticia, have you read my recent posts? I believe Harry's scar is the final Horcrux but he won't have to die in order to defy Vold because of the connection forged - due to DD's statement about Nagini (the danger of free will, etc., etc.). Any thoughts?

morticia - Jan 25, 2007 9:59 pm (#158 of 1297)

But this is a quintessential pattern in a "quest" story. The wise one says "okay, I'll tell you all you need to know", but of course he (or she!) doesn't. It is *rite of passage* formula. Not necessarily Harry must die - I hope

Yes totally, I meant that in relation to DD knowing about the connection between Voldemort and Harry and what it meant and not passing on information that could harm Snape etc.

I have read the posts about what DD says about Horcruxes but this seems to me to be more about what Voldemort would intentionally use as a Horcrux rather than Harry, whose scar, if it is a Horcrux, is an accidental one I think.

M

haymoni - Jan 26, 2007 6:15 am (#159 of 1297)

How do you put something of yourself in someone else?

Dumbledore says Voldy transferred some of his powers to Harry. Didn't he say this before the discovery of the diary?

That statement makes me think that Harry is a Horcrux, but without knowing HOW a Horcrux is made, it makes it difficult to understand the mechanics of what happened that night.

And I also think that Dumbledore still feels that Harry has enough to be getting on with - he has to find the other Horcruxes no matter what. Hopefully, when that task is complete, he will figure out that he himself is a Horcrux and will know how to deal with it.

Don't ask me how. I'm not Jo!

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 26, 2007 3:08 pm (#160 of 1297)

I have read the posts about what DD says about Horcruxes but this seems to me to be more about what Voldemort would intentionally use as a Horcrux rather than Harry, whose scar, if it is a Horcrux, is an accidental one I think. - morticia

Yes, I speculate that GG's sword was at Godric's Hollow and Vold knew of it. He intended to use this as the final Horcrux but, alas, earwax... There was a post of xray's which gives a theory as to why Vold could not have cast the needed Horcrux spell (we did not see it in Priori Incantatem during GoF) but I still feel there's a loophole there regarding what does and does not register in Priori. I feel the *evidence* for Harry's scar being an accidental Horcrux is overwhelming. If it's a red herring, I'll eat that earwax Bertie Bott bean.

haymoni - I agree.

Thom Matheson - Jan 26, 2007 4:59 pm (#161 of 1297)

I'll save you my beans Me and My

HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 26, 2007 5:28 pm (#162 of 1297)

If it's a red herring, I'll eat that earwax Bertie Bott bean. You and me both, M&MS. But aren't red herrings supposed to be obvious?

Regarding the Horcrux spell not showing in the graveyard scene, we do know from canon that Big V had several other Horcruxes but I don't remember them coming out of his wand. Also, wouldn't that give away his secret to the others?

I, too agree, haymoni.

Good point, morticia.

Choices - Jan 26, 2007 5:34 pm (#163 of 1297)

Haymoni - "Didn't he say this before the discovery of the diary?"

I believe he says this to Harry in his office after Harry returns from the Chamber of Secrets - when he is showing Harry the sword with Godric Gryffindor's name on it. The diary was destroyed in the chamber and this is said afterward.

Mediwitch - Jan 26, 2007 7:42 pm (#164 of 1297)

I don't know, Maria; I just thought Harry broke the wand contact relatively quickly after James's "echo" came out. I don't think there was enough time for spells cast prior to James's murder to come out. If Harry had sustained the contact, perhaps we would have seen the spells, but he didn't.

HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 26, 2007 7:52 pm (#165 of 1297)

Mediwitch, if he made a Horcrux with Nagini as DD suspected and used Bryce's murder for it, it should have surfaced.

Mediwitch - Jan 26, 2007 8:04 pm (#166 of 1297)

Yes, if Dumbledore was correct! How did Dumbledore word it when he picked Harry up at the Dursleys'? Something about thickets of wild guesswork? I tend to think Dumbledore might be wrong about Nagini. But then again, I'm rarely correct in my guesses!!!

xray - Jan 26, 2007 10:04 pm (#167 of 1297)

Mediwitch, if he made a Horcrux with Nagini as DD suspected and used Bryce's murder for it, it should have surfaced. -- HungarianHorntail

That's one reason why I don't believe Nagini is a Horcrux.

I tend to think Dumbledore might be wrong about Nagini. -- Mediwitch

I agree, especially when you consider this quote from Rowling: Dumbledore's guesses are never very far wide of the mark. I don't want to give too much away here, but Dumbledore says, 'There are four out there, you've got to get rid of four, and then you go for Voldemort.' So that's where he is, and that's what he's got to do. (From Melissa and Emerson's interview.)

I think Voldemort's wand is the last Horcrux, created by using another wand, perhaps Bertha Jorkins' or Wormtail's wand (that's why it didn't show up in Priori Incantatem).

Which reminds me... why is there a separate thread dedicated to Voldemort's wand as a Horcrux?

MickeyCee3948 - Jan 26, 2007 10:16 pm (#168 of 1297)

What we saw coming out of the wand were curses. Are we told that the making of a Horcrux is a curse? Can't go back to my books at this very moment and so I'm not sure.

Mickey

TheSaint - Jan 26, 2007 11:53 pm (#169 of 1297)

What we saw was 'the reverse spell effect.' It should have shown, if making a Horcrux requires a wand at all.

Quidditch Mom - Jan 27, 2007 3:16 am (#170 of 1297)

Wow, TheSaint! That's an interesting idea. Maybe a wand isn't needed, or isn't the only magical item needed. Could a potion be somehow involved? Something you have to drink before the murder is performed? After all, potion master Slughorn was Tom Riddle's choice to get information about Horcruxes. Plus, that would make Snape even more central to the plot. Gotta think about that one some more...

HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 27, 2007 7:20 am (#171 of 1297)

Actually, Mediwitch, and xray, I agree. I always thought DD was incorrect as to who the live Horcrux was. But overall, do you think he never tried to make another Horcrux after he learned of the diary? I'm not so certain he did (that would then mean he got his magical 7 but one was destroyed - would Big V settle for that) but if he did, are we certain it should surface from his wand? Which brings up another point - how would a Horcrux spell surface? Would one of Big V's ears or eyes emerge from the wand (I know, I'm being silly) - would it show at all - but how convenient for her to leave out such info. by stopping with James. I think I need to take a better look at the scene between Frank and Lily's emergences from his wand.

It would make sense, as Mattew Bates pointed out quite a while ago that Big V didn't want Harry killed because he wished to use him to make a final Horcrux - but why didn't he have Harry brought to him, then?

Regarding the wandless magic, that is an interesting thought. It seems to make sense that it may be a potion but Slughorn specifically said, "there's a spell. . ."

Okay, when I have more questions than answers, it means it's time for a reread.

Luna Logic - Jan 27, 2007 8:08 am (#172 of 1297)
Edited by Jan 27, 2007 8:09 am

Quidditch Mom "Could a potion be somehow involved? Something you have to drink before the murder is performed? After all, potion master Slughorn was Tom Riddle's choice to get information about Horcruxes. Plus, that would make Snape even more central to the plot."

Good theory to explain Slughorn's role. And Lily, too, if she was really good at potions: her knowledge may be had a price to Voldemort? who was tempted not to kill her, thinking she could be useful? (weak theory... but I love it I don(t know why...)

Objection below by HungarianHorntail "Slughorn specifically said, "there's a spell. . .""

So, why not say that making an Horcrux is complex magic : V. had first to drink a potion, to prepare specifically the division of the soul.

Then kill, then pronounce a spell to encase the portion of soul in the chosen object.

Or : Then pronounce a spell to "open" the object, then kill (and the portion of soul split by the kill then goes into the object).

TomProffitt - Jan 27, 2007 8:19 am (#173 of 1297)

I've got some questions here;

Does Riddle know the Diary was destroyed or only that Lucius no longer has possession of it?

Assuming Lucius knew it was Horcrux would he have admitted to it being destroyed?

If Lucius did not know it was a Horcrux could he have communicated sufficient information to allow Riddle to conclude it was destroyed?

And lastly, if Lucius did not know it was a Horcrux would Riddle risk questioning him in such a way that it might be revealed that the diary had been a Horcrux?

HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 27, 2007 9:18 am (#174 of 1297)

TomP, I am under the impression that Lucius did not know what he had in the diary. He probably convinced Big V that he was trustworthy (remember the 'slippery friend' comment in the graveyard?) so he entrusted it to Lucius, thinking it would be kept safe but not what it contained.

We do not know who told Big V the diary was destroyed. Our only knowledge is that DD commented on it (anyone have the quote?). I think it was tossed around on this thread (or possibly the Snape thread) a while back that it may have been Severus who informed him.

BTW, thanks for the quote, xray.

haymoni - Jan 27, 2007 9:42 am (#175 of 1297)

It would make sense that Severus told him and that Severus was also the one who told Dumbledore that Voldy's anger was terrible to behold when he found out the diary had been destroyed.

xray - Jan 27, 2007 1:54 pm (#176 of 1297)

do you think he never tried to make another Horcrux after he learned of the diary? I'm not so certain he did (that would then mean he got his magical 7 but one was destroyed -- HungarianHorntail11

I was thinking about this recently. If Voldemort's magical number was seven, then he had to create exactly six Horcruxes total. If two are destroyed, then he has 4 Horcruxes + 2 destroyed + himself = 7, his magical number. I don't think replacement Horcruxes would work--wouldn't it complicate the plot too much for a children's book? (possible, but not likely IMO)

Which brings up another point - how would a Horcrux spell surface?

So far we've seen the result of the spell being shown. At the Quidditch world cup it was an image of the skull/snake. In Priori Incantatem it was the people who died and the results of the Crucio spell (screams of pain and agony). If it were from a Horcrux creation spell it should be the Horcrux item, wouldn't you think?

Regarding the wandless magic, that is an interesting thought. It seems to make sense that it may be a potion but Slughorn specifically said, "there's a spell. . ."

Yes but I doubt that any potion was required.

We do not know who told Big V the diary was destroyed. Our only knowledge is that DD commented on it (anyone have the quote?). - HungarianHorntail11

"Perhaps, at the point of death, he might be aware of his loss . . . but he was not aware, for instance, that the diary had been destroyed until he forced the truth out of Lucius Malfoy. When Voldemort discovered that the diary had been mutilated and robbed of all its powers, I am told that his anger was terrible to behold."

BTW, thanks for the quote, xray.

You're quite welcome!

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 27, 2007 2:00 pm (#177 of 1297)

To me Riddle asked Slughorn more because he was, I believe, Slytherin Head of House and Riddle was in the Slug Club. So I'm guessing they were close (as close as Riddle gets to being "close"). Riddle might have suspected that if any professor would know about Dark Magic, it would be Slytherin Head of House (Death Eaters hadn't been invented yet so no one would know for sure where Slughorn stood on such matters).

HH11, I agree that it seems Lucius was using the diary as a means of disgracing Arthur Weasley and his Muggle Protection Act (Edit - and to open the Chamber, obviously). I do not think Lucius knows about Horcruxes. As far as we know, DD surmised from Voldy’s first "re-embodied" statement of *I have gone further than anyone else along the path of immortality*. This was the only time we've heard a clue from Vold, and DD picked up on it after suspecting it with diary, realising there was more than one.

It is possible some off-handed comment like this was picked up on by RAB.

Edit:

Which brings up another point - how would a Horcrux spell surface?

So far we've seen the result of the spell being shown. At the Quidditch world cup it was an image of the skull/snake. - xray

I'm not following this, xray. Would you expand on how you got image of skull/snake as a sign of Horcrux spell?

~edited quite a bit for clarity

xray - Jan 27, 2007 2:43 pm (#178 of 1297)

I'm not following this, xray. Would you expand on how you got image of skull/snake as a sign of Horcrux spell? -- me and my shadow 813

Oh, sorry. I was explaining how spell results were displayed in the Priori Incantatem chapter.

"Priori Incantatem!" roared Mr. Diggory.

Harry heard Hermione gasp, horrified, as a gigantic serpent-tongued skull erupted from the point where the two wands met, but it was a mere shadow of the green skull high above them; it looked as though it were made of thick gray smoke: the ghost of a spell. -- GoF, page 136

I'm just saying that if a Horcrux spell were cast with a wand, either the Priori Incantatem spell or the Priori Incantatem effect would probably have revealed it as the Horcrux item itself.

Laura W - Jan 27, 2007 6:27 pm (#179 of 1297)

TomProffitt --

from HBP, Chapter Horcruxes, p.474 (Raincoast):

(Dumbledore to Harry): "Perhaps, at the point of death, he might be aware of his loss ... but he was not aware, for instance, that the diary had been destroyed until he forced the truth out of Lucius Malfoy. When Voldemort discovered that the diary had been mutilated and robbed of all its powers, I am told that his anger was terrible to behold."

And on p.475: (DD): "Ah, poor Lucius ... what with Voldemort's fury about the fact that he threw away the Horcrux for his own gain ..."

"Forced the truth out of Lucius Malfoy"? We all know what that means. (shudder) My guess is that Malfoy, Sr. was punished (Crucio’d) plenty for the diary incident, but then given another chance (i.e. - getting V the prophecy) to redeem himself.

Also, Dumbledore specifically tells Harry that none of the DEs in the graveyard scene knew about the Horcruxes. "Then you told me, two years later, that on the night that Voldemort returned to his body, he made a most illuminating and alarming statement to his Death Eaters. 'I, who have gone further than anybody along the path that leads to immortality.' ... I thought I knew what that meant, though the Death Eaters did not. He was referring to his Horcruxes ..." (p.469)

Mediwitch - Jan 27, 2007 7:25 pm (#180 of 1297)

Hi Maria! If I'm thinking about the sequence of events correctly, then:

1. Voldemort was in spirit form from the time he was vaporized at Godric's Hallow until Wormtail returned to him, some time between the end of PoA and the beginning of GoF.

2. Voldemort had a rudimentary body at the beginning of GOF. He himself talks about how weak he is in that form, and that he cannot survive without Wormtail to milk Nagini to sustain him.

3. He gains a mortal body back at the end of GoF, recalls his Death Eaters, and duels Harry. The Priori Incantatem effect takes place, and the most recent spells regurgitate, only up to Lily's death.

4. Harry escapes and Snape later returns. If Snape is the one who told Voldemort about the diary being destroyed it could not have happened until after this time - and the spells had already been regurgitated. If Voldemort tortured the information out of Lucius, that also could not have happened until after this time.

I think his rudimentary "ugly baby" body would have been too weak to create a Horcrux (I.e., from Frank Bryce's death), and anyway, it appears he did not know of the diary's destruction until after he regained his mortal body (and Frank Bryce had already been killed). The Priori effect had already occurred. If Voldemort made another Horcrux (or more) after regaining his mortal body, it would have been after the Priori effect.

xray - Jan 27, 2007 11:26 pm (#181 of 1297)

1. Voldemort was in spirit form from the time he was vaporized at Godric's Hallow until Wormtail returned to him, some time between the end of PoA and the beginning of GoF. - Mediwitch

No, that can't be correct. He was in Quirrell's head in PS.

The Priori Incantatem effect takes place, and the most recent spells regurgitate, only up to Lily's death.

Actually up to James' death. If you're reading the US version, it's flip-flopped inadvertently in earlier editions.

I think his rudimentary "ugly baby" body would have been too weak to create a Horcrux (I.e., from Frank Bryce's death)

Not really. He did cast a spell to kill Frank Bryce.

And then the chair was facing Frank, and he saw what was sitting in it. His walking stick fell to the floor with a clatter. He opened his mouth and let out a scream. He was screaming so loudly that he never heard the words the thing in the chair spoke as it raised a wand. There was a flash of green light, a rushing sound, and Frank Bryce crumpled. He was dead before he hit the floor. - GoF, page 15

If he can cast a spell, he can create a Horcrux.

I believe that Voldemort created a Horcrux out of his own wand, using another wand--either Wormtail's or Bertha Jorkins' wand.

HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 28, 2007 4:37 am (#182 of 1297)

Your corrections make sense, xray but I see what you're trying to say, Mediwitch. So then, what if it was the Rat who informed him of the diary rather than Snape. Remember, he was always with Ron and knew everything that went on.

When the Rat returned to him, he could have filled him in on everything. I really got the feeling from the reading that when he called Lucius "my slippery friend" that he was referring to the diary incident. Big V entrusted it to him and Lucius failed miserably.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 28, 2007 10:34 am (#183 of 1297)

I was thinking about the destruction of the Diary and Ring Horcruxes and I was reminded of Locard's Exchange Principle:

The Locard exchange principle, also known as Locard's theory, was postulated by 20th century forensic scientist Edmond Locard. Locard was the director of the very first crime laboratory in existence, located in Lyon, France. Locard's exchange principle states that "with contact between two items, there will be an exchange" (Thornton, 1997).

Essentially Locard's principle is applied to crime scenes in which the perpetrator(s) of a crime comes into contact with the scene, so he will both bring something into the scene and leave with something from the scene. Every contact leaves a trace.

"Wherever he steps, whatever he touches, whatever he leaves, even unconsciously, will serve as a silent witness against him. Not only his fingerprints or his footprints, but his hair, the fibers from his clothes, the glass he breaks, the tool mark he leaves, the paint he scratches, the blood or semen he deposits or collects. All of these and more, bear mute witness against him. This is evidence that does not forget. It is not confused by the excitement of the moment. It is not absent because human witnesses are. It is factual evidence. Physical evidence cannot be wrong, it cannot perjure itself, it cannot be wholly absent. Only human failure to find it, study and understand it, can diminish its value." Professor Edmond Locard

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locard%27s_theory

First, Is it possible that those who have come into contact with Voldemort's Horcruxes have come away from their encounter with either visible traces of their experience, as demonstrated by Dumbledore's hand, or latent traces as illustrated by Ginny's experience with diary and the lasting affect on her even though she has no memory of the events of the events that occurred in CoS, the fact that she was possessed by Tom Riddle because of the diary and the memory of that has had an effect on her as demonstrated by her anger toward Harry when she learns of Harry's new potions book?

Second, is possible that the individuals who have come into contact with the Horcruxes have left traces of themselves on the Horcruxes?

Choices - Jan 28, 2007 11:33 am (#184 of 1297)

1. Voldemort was in spirit form from the time he was vaporized at Godric's Hallow until Wormtail returned to him, some time between the end of PoA and the beginning of GoF. - Mediwitch

x-ray - "No, that can't be correct. He was in Quirrell's head in PS."

Voldemort was still in spirit form - he had been inhabiting small animals and snakes in the forest. I think his spirit simply left one of these creatures and took up residence inside Quirrell.

As to the "my slippery friend" comment - I think that refers to the fact that Lucius claimed to have been under the Imperius curse when he was serving Voldemort. When Voldemort disappeared at Godric's Hollow and did not return, Lucius used that excuse to return to wizard society and not be punished for his affiliation with Voldemort and the DEs. He "slipped" his way out of being sent to Azkaban and I think perhaps Voldemort thought he was trying to "slip" his way back into Voldemort's good graces there in the graveyard.

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 28, 2007 3:12 pm (#185 of 1297)

So then, what if it was the Rat who informed him of the diary rather than Snape. Remember, he was always with Ron and knew everything that went on. - HH11

That's good HH11, although I don't know if it really matters (unless to disprove Severus somehow?) - but I do think in CoS there was an off-handed comment about Scabbers sitting on Harry's bed and Hermione pushing him off while the Trio are discussing things. Peter was probably listening intently.

As to the "my slippery friend" comment - I think that refers to the fact that Lucius claimed to have been under the Imperius curse when he was serving Voldemort. - Choices

I believe this as well, Choices.

xray, I do like your Horcrux/wand theory. I'm wondering a few things:

- if Vold wanted to use Harry's death for his final Horcrux, is it possible he used either James or Lily's wand to cast the spell on his own wand?

- if (I am hanging on to Harry's scar theory so *if* the encasement spell occurs prior to the murder) I wonder if he might have inadvertently used the James/Lily wand to AK Harry without thinking and a)this is partially why it rebounded because it wasn't Voldy’s own wand, and b)this is why we do not see it during Priori Incantatem.

Along these lines, could Peter have had Voldy’s wand directly after the rebounded AK, and was Peter using it when he exploded the street in front of Sirius? (not the correct thread for this but it is a stream of thought). Cannot recall if this fits with canon... any thoughts?

Edit:

Nathan, that's interesting. It also reminds me of DD's comment in the Cave: "Magic always leaves traces."

Choices - Jan 28, 2007 5:36 pm (#186 of 1297)

We have seen that Voldemort puts very dangerous and protective spells on his Horcruxes and he doesn't make Horcruxes using objects that are very "public" - JKR nixed the idea of the Sorting Hat being a Horcrux by saying something to the effect that Horcruxes don't sing in public before lots of people. They are secret, hidden things for the most part. If Voldemort's wand was a Horcrux, how did Wormtail manage to use it without something dire happening to him? What if the wand were snapped during a battle or accidentally? No, I believe it is just too "out there" for it to be a Horcrux.

Mediwitch - Jan 28, 2007 5:53 pm (#187 of 1297)

I agree with Choices - Voldemort's spirit possessed Quirrell. He was still in spirit form - no body of his own.

You are right about James's death, xray, not Lily's, thanks. And I thought I proofed my post carefully!

Yes, I know Ugly Babymort killed Frank Bryce, but I don't think we can discount Voldemort's own confession of how weak he really was. Besides, if Ugly Babymort had made a Horcrux from Bryce's death, I think there would have been some evidence during Priori Incantatem.

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 28, 2007 7:06 pm (#188 of 1297)

This is a copy of part of my post from Malfoy's Task thread -- it pertains to the DH illustration recently seen which is a badge or a shield... The following is on speculation that it is Riddle's Special Services Shield:

So far it fits with speculation that Filch was scanning for objects being smuggled out of the school. It also fits because DD used the word *trophy* when talking about Horcruxes with Harry. This is literally a trophy, awarded specifically to Riddle, and it's an award for blaming Hagrid for opening the Chamber. It's a phenomenal Horcrux object. Yet, as you pointed out, T Vrana, still some holes.

The other idea of the Head Boy badge is probably better due to as Choices states above, Horcruxes are usually very well hidden.

Switching gears, I am still exploring Harry's scar as the final Horcrux. xray's Wand theory has me thinking that *if* Vold was intending to use his wand as a Horcrux it might actually support the Scar theory. If he used James or Lily's wand to cast a spell on his own wand, it might answer some questions (stated in my most recent post above).

Again, as Choices said, JKR's quote indicates Voldy’s wand would be slightly too vulnerable for part of his soul.

GG's Sword being at Godric's Hollow seems a candidate as Voldy’s *intended* Horcrux with Harry's death, in my opinion. I'm sure Peter visited G's Hollow. If the Sword was in the house - as we have no mention of it being in DD's office prior to end of CoS - Peter could have told Vold the relic was indeed there.

Edit: don't want to get fan-fictiony here... but I have imagined the Sword was rescued from the ruins of the house and kept safe by the Deathly Hallows (Founders) who presented it to Harry via the Sorting Hat as he was Chosen as Heir to Gryffindor.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jan 28, 2007 9:48 pm (#189 of 1297)

Building off my post on Locard's Exchange Theory as MAMS813 pointed out in a subsequent post that Dumbledore asserted that magic leaves traces however, visible or latent.

It seems that Harry's training with Dumbledore consisted of four aspects. First, to learn about Voldemort and his past. Second, to teach Harry about Horcruxes and their importance to Voldemort. Third, to teach Harry how to recognize traces of magic and to use the knowledge gained from those traces in combination with his knowledge of Voldemort to locate the Horcruxes. Last, to instruct Harry how to overcome the defenses surrounding the Horcruxes

xray - Jan 29, 2007 11:27 am (#190 of 1297)

if Vold wanted to use Harry's death for his final Horcrux, is it possible he used either James or Lily's wand to cast the spell on his own wand? - me and my shadow 813

Yes it could be possible but not likely in the first place. The problem is that we don't know what the spell entails. Most likely the spell is cast after the murder is committed, not before. To encase an object implies that you're required to have that object first.

I wonder if he might have inadvertently used the James/Lily wand to AK Harry without thinking and a)this is partially why it rebounded because it wasn't Voldy’s own wand, and b)this is why we do not see it during Priori Incantatem.

Again, it might be possible but I seriously doubt it. Creating his seventh and final Horcrux at the time was probably a momentous event so I doubt he'd have messed it up by not realizing he was using the wrong wand. Nevertheless, the spell didn't complete... it's a killing spell and no one was killed.

Along these lines, could Peter have had Voldy’s wand directly after the rebounded AK, and was Peter using it when he exploded the street in front of Sirius?

That's interesting because it makes me wonder how Peter managed to hang onto Voldemort's wand all this time. But I doubt it happened because wouldn't Peter use his own wand for this?

If Voldemort's wand was a Horcrux, how did Wormtail manage to use it without something dire happening to him? What if the wand were snapped during a battle or accidentally? No, I believe it is just too "out there" for it to be a Horcrux. - Choices

You make a point but I am basing my reasoning primarily on two things. 1. This quote from an interview with Jo Rowling:

Dumbledore's guesses are never very far wide of the mark. I don't want to give too much away here, but Dumbledore says, 'There are four out there, you've got to get rid of four, and then you go for Voldemort.' So that's where he is, and that's what he's got to do.

and 2. Dumbledore's statement in HBP (page 506):

I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your death.

"As we know, he failed. After an interval of some years, however, he used Nagini to kill an old Muggle man, and it might then have occurred to him to turn her into his last Horcrux. She underlines the Slytherin connection, which enhances Lord Voldemort's mystique; I think he is perhaps as fond of her as he can be of anything; he certainly likes to keep her close, and he seems to have an unusual amount of control over her, even for a Parselmouth.

I think this may be part of Harry's coming of age epiphany. He needs to be able to think for himself and this is where he'll realize it. I have bolded the most relevant parts: fondness, likes to keep close and control. All of these apply to his very own wand as well.

Besides, Wormtail only had the wand in his possession with Voldemort's knowledge for a short time. He had his life in Wormtail's hands, why couldn't he trust his wand to Wormtail for a short time? I agree with you about "out there" theories but I don't think this one is that far-fetched. Dumbledore is correct in his assessment that the Horcrux was created using Frank Bryce's death but wrong that he made Nagini into his final Horcrux because "it is inadvisable to do so." That's why I believe it to be Voldemorts own wand.

Besides, if Ugly Babymort had made a Horcrux from Bryce's death, I think there would have been some evidence during Priori Incantatem. - Mediwitch

Not if he used another wand to make it. And I say this because I doubt if he could use his own wand to cast a spell on the same wand.

Luna Logic - Jan 29, 2007 12:59 pm (#191 of 1297)

Nathan Zimmermann, I like your summary : "It seems that Harry's training with Dumbledore consisted of four aspects. First, to learn about Voldemort and his past. Second, to teach Harry about Horcruxes and their importance to Voldemort. Third, to teach Harry how to recognize traces of magic and to use the knowledge gained from those traces in combination with his knowledge of Voldemort to locate the Horcruxes. Last, to instruct Harry how to overcome the defenses surrounding the Horcruxes

May we add Harry's training with Snape? (Perhaps this time not related to Horcruxes but to the fight with Voldemort)

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 29, 2007 4:44 pm (#192 of 1297)

To encase an object implies that you're required to have that object first. - xray

I'm not saying he didn't have the object first. He had it, whether it was the Wand, GG's Sword, or Nagini. Could you phrase your above statement another way if I am misinterpreting it? edit: never mind, I think I understand - object meaning the soul fragment?

I imagine the spell is cast prior to the murder because, to me, a fragment of soul isn't going to hang around waiting for directions. The directions must be intended first. To me the whole idea with murder and one's soul being split is the person loses that piece of himself, it's gone, upon the act of murder. And usually intention is required for a spell *prior* to it being executed, not afterward. But, I think we might be going in circles, xray, and I do like your theory. I just like Harry's scar better.

That's interesting because it makes me wonder how Peter managed to hang onto Voldemort's wand all this time.

I'll turn that back to you, xray. That's interesting to me because it makes me wonder how Vold would manage to hang onto his wand without a body?

~edited a lot for clarity

xray - Jan 29, 2007 6:00 pm (#193 of 1297)

never mind, I think I understand - object meaning the soul fragment? - me and my shadow 813

Yeah, sorry. Sometimes I'm not very clear.

a fragment of soul isn't going to hang around waiting for directions

Ahh. I always understood the fragment of soul to remain in the body--that it doesn't dissipate; the soul is just fractured.

Some other Harrycrux* theorists have said that they think the soul might mend itself over time... not the same as a whole, untarnished soul, but intact nonetheless.

xray, and I do like your theory. I just like Harry's scar better.

Thanks! You know I'd be more accepting of the general Harrycrux theories if people who support them do so with the understanding that there must be four other Horcruxes in addition to the possibility of Harry (or his scar) being a Horcrux. I just can't see Voldemort stop making Horcruxes if he thinks he's still got one left to be made.

how Vold would manage to hang onto his wand without a body?

As I recall, Jo Rowling answered this question saying that Wormtail had it. I'll have to look for that quote to check.

p.s. do you have a livejournal account?

* Harrycrux was a term coined by some friends referring to "Harry is a Horcrux."

Choices - Jan 29, 2007 6:28 pm (#194 of 1297)

xray - "Creating his seventh and final Horcrux"

Voldemort created only six Horcruxes - the seventh part of his soul resides in him.

xray - "I agree with you about "out there" theories...."

No, I didn't mean it was an "out there" theory, I meant that the wand was too much in evidence (too public - like the Sorting hat) to be a Horcrux.

xray - Jan 29, 2007 7:58 pm (#195 of 1297)

Voldemort created only six Horcruxes - the seventh part of his soul resides in him. - Choices

Doh! I knew that.

me and my shadow 813 - Jan 29, 2007 8:07 pm (#196 of 1297)

I have been perusing the Lexicon and this passage interested me regarding our discussion.

Lexicon on AK: Riddle had taken care to use someone else's wand - that of his maternal uncle, Morfin Gaunt - to commit the murder, so that the magical equivalent of forensics would point to a suspect other than himself, and had further covered himself by tampering with Morfin's memory so that Morfin himself believed he had committed the crimes (HBP17).

I hadn't thought of it before regarding this particular discussion, although folks have speculated that Vold could have pinned the murders on Lily... It's a stretch but given what I've posted recently, is it possible that he wanted to use Lily's wand to kill Harry in order to pin the murder on her and modify her memory? Eek.

xray, I'm still thinking all this with the theory that if Vold attempted to use his wand as a Horcrux it backfired and Harry's scar is the Horcrux. But, looking past our differences, it might be possible he was using Lily's wand at Godric's Hollow in order to frame her and because he was intending to use his own wand as the Horcrux. Hm.

ps: I don't know what a livejournal account is (blog? I'm out of the loop) so I guess the answer is no Smile

Thom Matheson - Jan 29, 2007 9:28 pm (#197 of 1297)

By that time in the Voldemort War 1, what would be the point in hiding that fact. I don't see that happening.

T Vrana - Jan 30, 2007 6:25 am (#198 of 1297)

He used his own wand on James, so framing Lily with just Harry's murder would have been suspicious.

sstabeler - Jan 30, 2007 10:19 am (#199 of 1297)

I have a theory related to Horcruxes, more specifically the location of them. if you look at where the previous ones where, and infer a little, then an interesting pattern emerges. the ring was in his ancestor's shack, the locket originally was in the cave where lord Voldemort tortured his victims, and I infer from the fact that Voldemort gave it to Lucius, that the diary was originally in the DE HQ for storage. they are all locations important to Voldemort’s history, the shack, his mother's residence, the cave, where he tortured his young victims, the diary, his base of operations. thus, I think we need to look to the other important locations in Lord Voldemort's life for the remaining Horcruxes, excluding the locket. my theory is that Ravenclaw's Horcrux is the tiara in the ROR. and that Lord Voldemort hid the Hufflepuff cup in the orphanage he grew up in (could be interesting to find, that one) as for the snake, we know where that is. wherever Voldemort is (I reckon what will happen is that Harry will try to tempt Nagini away using Parseltongue when she's out hunting, and then remove Voldemort’s soul from her. I don't know what he would do with Nagini afterward ,maybe let her go) and as for the locket, order Kreacher to hand it over.

Luna Logic - Jan 30, 2007 11:49 am (#200 of 1297)
Edited by Jan 30, 2007 11:51 am

Yes sstabeler, I'm wondering too on the problem of the locations of the Horcruxes. I think it will be a major problem in book seven. I am at the moment doing a search in the whole Forum about that (with key words), and IMO (learn today, this one) there are many tiny (or big) elements to assemble about that.

As you do, I think these locations are to consider from Voldemort side of view, and not from our own. So, we could make a list of what events were significant, considering Tom/Voldemort logic. Thus, we have to know him better during the years between Poudlard and the fist war. (I could develop..)

My present problem is : I should like to discuss more of the subject but can we do it in this thread? Other interesting discussions are going on here, which I don't want to interrupt (sorry if it's done !) To speak frankly I’m wondering if a thread ‘Horcruxes’ can hold "the whole" of this crucial matter, and if it could not be separated on ‘How to do Horcruxes’ ; How to protect Horcruxes ; ‘How to destroy Horcruxes’ and ‘How to found Horcruxes’ ! (I forgot one : "What are the Horcruxes" (not convinced by your choice, sstabeler ...)

What does everybody thinks about that ?(says she, not wishing to interrupt !)

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haymoni - Jan 30, 2007 12:29 pm (#201 of 1297)

Interrupt away.

The problem with so many threads about the same thing is that folks end up repeating themselves - look at all the Snape threads.

It seems as though we do need to go through Tom Riddle's past to see what places might be important to him. I disagree about the orphanage though. I don't think that place is very important to him. The cave was the place that was important to him at that time.

I agree with the tiara in the ROR, but I think a re-read of the items at Borgin & Burkes might be in order as well.

sstabeler - Jan 30, 2007 1:22 pm (#202 of 1297)

the orphanage was where he found out eh was a wizard, I imagine Voldemort would consider it of stupendous importance ( diary, anyone?). I can't see many other places Voldemort would consider important, unless the remaining Horcrux is at the riddle manor? following the family theme? one in his magical family's house, one in his Muggle family's house.

significant events from Voldemort's point of view:

1: birth (debatable)(orphanage) 2: tortures youthful victims ( cave/orphanage?) 3: discovers can manipulate people and hurt them, also control animals and other items.(orphanage) 4: discovers is a wizard and torture/manipulation was magic (Cruciatus /Imperio?)(orphanage) 5: goes to wizard school (Hogwarts) 6: discovers about Horcruxes (Hogwarts) 7: discovers about his father's abandonment of his mother, decides to kill father ( gaunt hovel) 8: kills Muggle parents ( riddle manor) 9: kills Hepzibah smith (debatable whether important or not, however)( Hepzibah smith manor) 10: goes to Dumbledore and requests DADA job, is refused( curses DADA position?)( Hogwarts 11: plans domination of WW (DE HQ? Hogwarts? orphanage? elsewhere?)

number if times each one comes up, including doubtful: orphanage: 3 or 4 cave: 1 Hogwarts: 3 or 4 gaunt hovel: 1 DE HQ: possibly 1 riddle manor:1 Hepzibah smith manor: 1

obviously if the riddle manor or Hepzibah smith manor is the DE H, it increases the number of things that happened there. based on this analysis of where things occurred, Hogwarts and the orphanage are almost dead certainties, esp. as he has hidden them in the gaunt hovel and cave already, and the diary was probably at the DE HQ before it went to Lucius, that leaves riddle manor or the Hepzibah smith manor as the other candidates. it's suddenly looking a lot easier to find the Horcruxes than it at first seemed, IMHO.

Luna Logic - Jan 30, 2007 1:49 pm (#203 of 1297)
Edited by Jan 30, 2007 1:51 pm

The quest will be indeed easier... if the Horcruxes are really linked to the Founders (that is not certain) And if the Head quarter of the DE is important for Voldemort, and is at the two only houses known (Gaunt and Riddle). Which I doubt (DD has done the search there already).

What about a possible residence of Tom/Voldemort in the years while he was working at B and B, then after ? In my mind he may have been doing research there about Horcrux's protection. But not with DE around. in total secrecy.

I'm thinking of Salazar Serpentard (previous) residence (unknown... in the fens... see the Lexicon essay) But Hepzibah Smith residence, why not? (may be DD has searched that too?)

sstabeler - Jan 30, 2007 2:09 pm (#204 of 1297)
Edited by S.E. Jones Jan 31, 2007 2:25 am

do we know DD has searched the riddle house? maybe he thought it was in either the riddle house or gaunt hovel, found it at the gaunt hovel, and didn't search the riddle manor? just wondering, as it would be important. as if he has searched the riddle manor, bang goes pert of my theory. if he hasn't, and Harry discovers a Horcrux there, then I would bet my theory was correct.

- Please try to use proper capitalization (capitalize "I", the beginnings of sentences, proper names of people and places, etc.) in your posts so that all our members, including those who use a primary language other than English, can read what you have written. Thank you. - SE Jones

HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 30, 2007 2:21 pm (#205 of 1297)

Let's not forget the elusive Chamber of Secrets. Big V spent a lot of time researching it. Who knows what secrets it still may contain? It is, after all, plural.

Luna Logic - Jan 30, 2007 2:23 pm (#206 of 1297)
Edited by Jan 30, 2007 2:27 pm

to sstabeler : we know that Dumbledore has done very serious research for Horcruxes. As he is an excellent wizard, we must think he has thought of all the possibilities we are now thinking, and has made all the links we are now making !

So finding Horcruxes is not easy in my view ...

That's why I am looking for a hidden residence, unknown of us. And for somebody who could tell us (could tell Harry !) about Voldemort's past, habits etc.

But yes, HungrainHortail11, Hogwarts may be a location for Voldemort. Chamber of secret perhaps... following again Salazar Slytherin.

mel gaulding - Feb 3, 2007 3:08 pm (#207 of 1297)

Now everybody remember that Harry has only one book, of whatever length, to figure out where they are and what to do to destroy them! For that reason, I think there has to be a more obvious solution/resolution than we have yet hit on! It is so much fun to dig deep and speculate that I suspect we are missing a much more basic answer, and we are all going to smack our foreheads and say DOH!

Is it conceivable that the Horcruxes are somehow linked to each other? So by finding one, Harry is "informed" of the next one? Something to do with the order in which they were made and the links between the object's owners?

I am mostly thinking this because Dumbledore had found the ring, and then---apparently quite swiftly---found the location of the locket...

HungarianHorntail11 - Feb 3, 2007 4:20 pm (#208 of 1297)

I really like that idea, mel. Off to think about it. . .

Choices - Feb 3, 2007 5:56 pm (#209 of 1297)

Why in heavens name would Voldemort make a Horcrux, that when destroyed, gives you the location of the next Horcrux? That would totally defeat the whole purpose of hiding them. Why would he make it easy for the one (or ones) who want to destroy them and eventually him? Just makes no sense to me.

MickeyCee3948 - Feb 3, 2007 6:34 pm (#210 of 1297)

Doesn't have to say the exact location. As Harry finds one after the other the evidence of what objects were used and the places they are hidden will provide Hermione's organized mind the evidence to go after the next one.

Mickey

sstabeler - Feb 4, 2007 2:44 am (#211 of 1297)

true, but I agree with Choices. WHY would Voldemort make things easy to find all the Horcruxes? it would make no sense, given that then Voldemort could be dealt with by any old trainee Auror that manages to get off a killing curse. also, given Voldemort is around the same age as McGonagall, do you think that stunners from the trio plus Ginny will be how JK writes Voldemort’s death? as I can't see Voldemort being treated at St Mungo’s, myself.

TheSaint - Feb 4, 2007 5:11 am (#212 of 1297)

If Harry is a Horcrux, then perhaps he can 'tune in' to the others. Feel the magic, as it were, as DD could feel it. That little shiver Harry was feeling.

sstabeler - Feb 4, 2007 8:23 am (#213 of 1297)

when would he have been made a Horcrux? Voldemort couldn't exactly have done it when he was Vapourmort, and there is no evidence that he has been made one since, and Voldemort can't have made Harry a Horcrux before. also, if Harry was a Horcrux, wouldn't Dumbledore have realised?

Choices - Feb 4, 2007 9:15 am (#214 of 1297)

My thoughts exactly, sstabeler, but there are those who are convinced Harry is a Horcrux.

xray - Feb 4, 2007 12:14 pm (#215 of 1297)

but there are those who are convinced Harry is a Horcrux.

I am also skeptical but there is the possibility that magic did go awry that night. Nonetheless, even if Harry is a Horcrux, or "Horcrux like," Voldemort could not know and he'd have proceeded to continue on his quest to complete six Horcruxes. If he was one short as Dumbledore surmised, then he would have had to create it sometime after Wormtail found him.

Thom Matheson - Feb 4, 2007 12:50 pm (#216 of 1297)

Why would Voldemort want to kill Harry in the Graveyard then? I just have3 to throw my 2 in as well and say that Harry is in no way a or like a Horcrux

sstabeler - Feb 4, 2007 1:16 pm (#217 of 1297)

Yeah, Harry cannot be a Horcrux as otherwise, LV would be trying to protect him, not kill him. it rather dumb to try to destroy your own Horcrux, unless you want to be mortal again.

TheSaint - Feb 4, 2007 1:53 pm (#218 of 1297)

Number one... could have been an accident. Two: May not be Voldemort's creation. Three: He may not know. Four: Why not destroy one...he has five more? Five: Since we do not know the spell or procedures necessary to create a Horcrux, it is unknown whether he could or couldn't. Six: How do you know Dumbledore doesn't know it? Seven: I think all these questions have been referenced and countered in the previous two years worth of posts. Smile

You say tomato and I say tomato! July will tell.

PS: SStabeler, is your shift key broken?

xray - Feb 4, 2007 2:13 pm (#219 of 1297)

Why would Voldemort want to kill Harry in the Graveyard then? - Thom Matheson

Prophecy.

Thom Matheson - Feb 4, 2007 3:22 pm (#220 of 1297)

Exactly. So for the sake of the prophecy, he loses immortality. Well a part of it anyway. Voldemort knows he is down to six after the CoS diary bought the bullet. Why possibly take that to five, or four if he knows about the ring. He is rapidly losing his shot at the immortality deal, and I can't imagine he would want to gamble on any of his Horcruxes. I don't see Voldemort as a gambler type. I could be all wet, but there you go. Tomatoes it is.

MickeyCee3948 - Feb 4, 2007 5:09 pm (#221 of 1297)

Don't know Thom he put all his marbles in trying to kill Harry. And Voldemort has such a vain personality he probably figures, I'll finish off Potter like I did Dumbledore and then I can make all the Horcruxes I want as the wizarding world will just roll over.

Mickey

xray - Feb 4, 2007 5:09 pm (#222 of 1297)

Thom Matheson, you are saying that if Harry is a Horcrux, Voldemort knows that he is. How could he know?

HungarianHorntail11 - Feb 4, 2007 5:17 pm (#223 of 1297)

Not necessarily, Thom. Remember that all other wizards prior to Big V had "settled" for only one Horcrux. So why would he not destroy Harry, the only thing, according to the prophecy, that stands in his way, when he has a nice reserve of Horcruxes. I suppose it is a choice - is he more afraid of Harry or is he more afraid of dwindling his Horcrux supply. In a literary manner, it makes sense.

I don't see Voldemort as a gambler type. Thom

I don't know, Thom. Anyone who chances his soul with a Horcrux at all, let alone 6 and experiments with himself in an effort for immortality, gets ripped from his body because he pushed too far and underestimated someone - that just doesn't scream conservative to me.

I agree with TheSaint - If you do a search on this thread, sstabeler, you can find plenty of arguments in favor of the Harry is a Horcrux theory. Then decide.

MickeyCee, I agree with your Post 210 in that it is there for them to figure out in much the same way DD figured out whom to go to for memories.

Two posts in the time it took me to finish just one - geez.

Thom Matheson - Feb 4, 2007 6:26 pm (#224 of 1297)

The caster creates the Horcrux. You would have to want to make one to send one. MIckey, he can't just make more. His soul is already in 7 parts. Just because one dies doesn't mean he can get a replacement. He would then have his soul down to 8 or 9 or what ever number he made. But, the less whole his soul is the less chance he can survive well. HH, I would say that by destroying Harry and then having a bunch more, would make me nervous as there could be another Harry coming down the road, and he will only get this shot once. Voldemort after creating his 6 for a total of 7 was his sticking to his number. Voldemort chose that as his number. If he could make bunches more why would he go to such extremes to protect them?

HungarianHorntail11 - Feb 4, 2007 7:00 pm (#225 of 1297)

The prophecy stated that the one with the power. . .etc. I am taking that literally to mean only one person has the power to do this. If there is another prophecy afterward, then he has another series of decisions on his hands. The Harry-Horcrux theory is based on the thought that the spell must be made in advance and he had performed it with full intent of killing Harry without any hitches.

With regard to the number 7, it has already been foiled with the destruction of the diary which we have in canon that he knows about. I would be curious to find out who would learn of Harry being a Horcrux first and how said person would handle it.

I have mentioned this before and at the risk of being redundant, will say again, that scene where Harry uses the extendable ears in St. Mungo's where they are speculating about Harry and he overhears, seems to me a great bit of foreshadowing. I'd like to think the 2nd time around, he'd handle it a bit better. But hey, I'm no professor.

Luna Logic - Feb 5, 2007 12:54 am (#226 of 1297)

Just a question, following the current discussion : have we evidence of Voldemort's state been affected by the destruction of one of his Horcrux?

(Two destructions : the diary ; the ring.... perhaps the locket, but that, when...)

mona amon - Feb 5, 2007 3:09 am (#227 of 1297)

Luna, Harry asks DD this same question, and this is his answer-

'A very interesting question Harry. I believe not. I believe that Voldemort is now so immersed in evil, and these crucial parts of himself have been detached for so long, he does not feel as we do. Perhaps at the point of death, he might be aware of his loss...-HBP chapter 23.

Luna Logic - Feb 5, 2007 3:23 am (#228 of 1297)
Edited by Feb 5, 2007 3:24 am

Great thanks mona amon. No clue to search there, we are trapped...

So, what does Voldemort knows about Horcruxes destruction is just a speculating matter? Or did he said something, did he act in some way leading to a clue? (I have not the precise knowledge of books as some of you here have, so I am asking ! But I might be re reading...)

HungarianHorntail11 - Feb 5, 2007 5:04 am (#229 of 1297)

Luna, if you are asking whether he knows of the destruction of any Horcruxes, the only one he knows about thus far is the diary - DD made mention that when he found out, he was not too happy with his slippery friend. The above quote is a pretty valid indicator that he is unaware of what is happening with the other Horcruxes. It seems as though DD is confident he will have a point of death, despite Big V's efforts toward attaining immortality.

Luna Logic - Feb 5, 2007 5:51 am (#230 of 1297)
Edited by Feb 5, 2007 5:57 am

Yes, HungarianHorntail11, I wonder if Voldemort knows of the destruction of Horcruxes. The point was on debate in "+ Malfoy's Task & The Vow" Concerning Draco's assignment, the possibility of having to get a Horcrux out of Hogwarts was in discussion. I asked "How would LV know that his Horcruxes were under threat? It seems he knows, for the diary, and think the Malfoy family is responsible for its loss. Now for the ring ?#72 It is still my question

"HH11 : The above quote is a pretty valid indicator that he is unaware of what is happening with the other Horcruxes." Hmm, DD says in this quote (HBP): "A very interesting question Harry. I believe not.’ So, just DD’s believing I don’t want to suspect DD's penetration but (just to speculate a bit more)

I confess I would like, for the plot , to see Voldemort assembling all his Horcruxes somewhere. That will make the Horcruxes quest new and thrilling! (See Pamzter, "+ Things that you would like to see happen..." #111 ‘If I have to sit through - what is it? four more? - sequences like getting through the cave, getting on the boat, somebody getting hurt, getting back to Hogwarts . . . I'm going to expire from sheer boredom.’ )

T Vrana - Feb 5, 2007 9:52 am (#231 of 1297)

HH11-The Harry-Horcrux theory is based on the thought that the spell must be made in advance and he had performed it with full intent of killing Harry without any hitches.

Not all the Harry Horcrux (or Horcrux like) theories are based on this. I contend that LV had just torn his soul twice right before having his 'main' soul ripped painfully from his body. Is it possible that the trauma of being forcibly ripped from his body completed the tears he had started with the murders of James and Lily, and that there were two soul bits torn from the 'main' soul and free at Godric's Hollow? Given what we know, I think it is possible.

Why would LV's soul bit be attracted to Harry? I theorize that LV wanted to destroy Harry, his enemy, but didn't he also want to be Harry? Didn't he see in Harry the life he should have had? A father and mother who were magical, who loved him and were willing to die for him?

Just a thought....

Thom Matheson - Feb 5, 2007 10:23 am (#232 of 1297)

T, What about the old saying, "you don't know what you don't know"?

I can't imagine that Voldemort would be jealous?(probably not the right word) of Harry or anyone. He is such a sociopath I can't see him even thinking like that.

T Vrana - Feb 5, 2007 10:28 am (#233 of 1297)

Thom- Not a thought really, more an emotion, or better yet, an 'unacknowledged' desire. I don't think he would even be conscious of having it.

Harry has everything he doesn't. On some level, LV is still the kid who grew up not knowing his parents, whose mother didn't bother to live for him, and whose father abandoned him. Harry has two powerful wizard parents, love, and they are both willing to die for him. I think in areas of his self he does not even contemplate, LV is 'jealous' of Harry.

Thom Matheson - Feb 5, 2007 12:39 pm (#234 of 1297)

If there is any jealousy between the two, I would consider it the other way around. Harry of Voldemort. Less and less as time goes on.

Voldemort looks upon himself as near god like and immortal. I don't see any, "wish I had Harry's parents, or love in my life". coming from Riddle. He's too selfish and conceited for that I think.

T Vrana - Feb 5, 2007 1:34 pm (#235 of 1297)

Why would Harry be jealous of LV?

On LV, not talking conscious thought here, but the underlying, unconscious yearnings of a boy who scoured Hogwarts for proof of his parentage, of his greatness, only to be disappointed. So he created a greatness for himself. Harry has prophesied greatness and the loving, powerful, sacrificing wizard parents to go along with it.

Thom Matheson - Feb 5, 2007 1:48 pm (#236 of 1297)

The Slytherin reference early on, both of orphaned parents, same wand. Harry has thought that he was very Voldemort like(special). As I said, as he got older, that changed dramatically.

T Vrana - Feb 5, 2007 2:09 pm (#237 of 1297)

I don't recall Harry ever wanting to be like LV, only wanting to prove himself, which is Slytherin like. Ollivander said LV did great things, and Harry ended up with the brother wand, but I don't recall Harry ever thinking of himself as special, until he discovered that he was good at Quidditch.

When he thought he was LV like, it frightened and concerned him.

me and my shadow 813 - Feb 5, 2007 3:58 pm (#238 of 1297)

Regarding why Vold would want to kill Harry in the graveyard if Harry's scar is a Horcrux -- we do not know if the one whose soul it *is* can destroy the Horcrux and *retrieve* the fragment, rather than the fragment of soul being destroyed.

Regarding would Vold know that Harry's scar is a Horcrux, DD has made it clear that Vold does not know when one is destroyed (he does not know about the ring) - so it's possible Vold does not know that Sword or other intended Horcrux at G'sH turned out to become Harry's scar, in my opinion...

HungarianHorntail11 - Feb 5, 2007 4:27 pm (#239 of 1297)

So, just DD’s believing I don’t want to suspect DD's penetration but (just to speculate a bit more) Luna

I agree with me and my shadow 813 - there was no indication in any of the books that Big V knew about the destruction of the ring. I suppose we may speculate to the contrary but I'm not sure if it would help advance us in any way. Whether or not he knows, we are certain he will in DH. My opinion is that he is detached from the bits once they are encapsulated as Horcruxes. Harry is different - he is a living Horcrux (for those of us who believe this).

I don't know, T Vrana, I'm really trying but I just can't make it work. I'll stick with the spell cast prior to murder until I'm convinced otherwise. I am still under the impression that the ripped soul bit is lost forever upon murdering without the Horcrux spell.

xray - Feb 5, 2007 4:35 pm (#240 of 1297)

Regarding would Vold know that Harry's scar is a Horcrux, DD has made it clear that Vold does not know when one is destroyed (he does not know about the ring) - so it's possible Vold does not know that Sword or other intended Horcrux at G'sH turned out to become Harry's scar, in my opinion... - me and my shadow 813

Hello again, me and my shadow Smile

I'm still trying to figure out why many Harrycrux theorists believe Voldemort knows Harry (or his scar) is a Horcrux. If he doesn't know, doesn't it stand to reason that he'd go on to complete his task and create (what he believes to be) his sixth and final Horcrux? Are you suggesting that Voldemort believes he actually created a Horcrux from some item he had with him even though his intended target, Harry, did not die?

Harry is different - he is a living Horcrux (for those of us who believe this).

I don't know, T Vrana, I'm really trying but I just can't make it work. I'll stick with the spell cast prior to murder until I'm convinced otherwise. I am still under the impression that the ripped soul bit is lost forever upon murdering without the Horcrux spell. - HungarianHorntail

Too many things go against the theory, IMO. If the soul bits are lost forever without the Horcrux spell, are you saying that the Horcrux spell was cast before Voldemort killed James and James' death is what actually created the Horcrux? If so, how'd it end up in Harry? If not, how'd the spell skip two killings and use no soul fragment to lodge into Harry? Sorry, but it makes absolutely no sense to me. Please explain (I'm open minded, honest!)

HungarianHorntail11 - Feb 5, 2007 5:02 pm (#241 of 1297)

xray, speaking for myself, I don't think he knows. I am still wondering who will realize/find out first.

DD speculated that Big V turned Nagini into a final Horcrux having felt that the last one (before he vaporized) did not pan out.

EDIT: xray, I am suggesting that Big V cast the spell just before he attempted to kill Harry. The Horcrux was made not with Harry's murder but with Lily's. There are a few snags but I feel it is a theory worth pursuing.

xray - Feb 5, 2007 5:19 pm (#242 of 1297)

EDIT: xray, I am suggesting that Big V cast the spell just before he attempted to kill Harry. The Horcrux was made not with Harry's murder but with Lily's. There are a few snags but I feel it is a theory worth pursuing. - HH

Then why didn't it show up in the Priori Incantatem?

T Vrana - Feb 5, 2007 7:12 pm (#243 of 1297)

HH11- I am still under the impression that the ripped soul bit is lost forever upon murdering without the Horcrux spell.

I don't think so. LV appears less and less human as he removes torn soul bits and stores them in Horcruxes. But we do not have any evidence that others who murder, who tear their souls, lose those torn bits. Otherwise I think some of the DEs would have the same 'less than human' appearance. Certainly they have murdered many. I assume that the soul bit remains in the body unless removed, via a Horcrux spell, or, if your soul is ripped from your body just after two tears are created.

JMHO

HungarianHorntail11 - Feb 5, 2007 8:37 pm (#244 of 1297)

T Vrana, is it written that his less human appearance is due to murders rather than experiments? I thought that part was a bit vague but perhaps I missed something.

xray, perhaps it did in Lily's echo surfacing.

Jenniffler - Feb 5, 2007 11:20 pm (#245 of 1297)

Baby Jo won't sleep.

Let's try this. Perhaps the secret to deactivating a Horcrux is to damage it in the process of trying to save a life. For example: Diary - Harry saves Ginny Peverell Ring - Snape saves Dumbledore Slytherin's Locket -RAB saves Kreacher(?) and I hope: Nagini - Pettigrew saves Harry Cup - Hufflepuff has its day! Ravenclaw(tiara?)Luna saves a Crumple-horned Snorkack

Yea baby's asleep! I'm a s-l-o-w typer. I have no more energy to backtrack former threads. Been here, done this?

TheSaint - Feb 6, 2007 12:53 am (#246 of 1297)

'...why did he know what Voldemort was feeling? What was this weird connection between them, which Dumbledore had never been able to explain satisfactorily?' OOTP Chapter 18, Dumbledore's Army

Hmmmmmmmmm.

Also I think the similarities between Voldie and Harry are explained by their journeys. Harry is on the same course of enlightenment that Voldemort was, but Voldemort, scared of death, was unable to accept that he had to die in order to reach eternal life...or immortality if you will.

Laura W - Feb 6, 2007 2:17 am (#247 of 1297)

TheSaint, I would be interested to know how you feel what you wrote in your last paragraph re the similarities between Harry and Voldemort and what you see as the fundamental difference between them - if I read you correctly - fits in with, or is related to, Dumbledore's comment that, "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."

I ask because I am genuinely interested in your perspective on the theory that Tom went in the direction he did - including the Horcruxes - because of his choices; Harry has gone in the direction he has and will because of *his* choices.

Of course Tom made all those Horcruxes because of his fear of death. But he didn't need to murder and torture thousands of wizards and Muggles during the first war - as Dumbledore has affirmed he did - because of his fear of death. That was something that LV did on his own because of, again as DD tells us, "his obvious instincts for cruelty, secrecy and domination." That is a very important observation of DD's that plays out in everything we have seen and will see concerning Voldemort.

If the fear of death was his whole motivation for everything he did in his life, Tom Riddle need only (only?) have killed six people; created six Horcruxes in which to store those soul bits; and then gone on to live the remainder of his days as an undoubtedly very accomplished - DD says he was brilliant - member of the wizard community.

If Harry and V have a connection - which they obviously do, since they can see into each others minds, to put it over simply -, I believe it has more to do with the original AK than any similarity in their life-journeys. The curse hit Harry on the forehead and wounded him, it rebounded and hit Voldemort, almost killing him (would have if not for the Horcruxes with soul bits in them that he had created and stored elsewhere). Somehow, in this whole process, something of Tom got transferred into Harry. Such as his ability to speak to snakes and other personality traits or characteristics which the Sorting Hat picked up on right away. Even though I cannot fill in the blanks on how and why this happened, it is how I see it. That fluke, and that fluke alone, are where the "similarities" between the two wizards lie.

Tom wanted the "enlightenment" gained by learning all about the Dark Arts; by taking magic to its limit and seeing what would happen. It is, certainly, a kind of enlightenment that a wizard of Tom's genius and curiosity and temperament would seek. Harry, on the other hand, really always sought nothing more than normality. He wanted to be a normal wizard boy with a normal wizard family and a normal wizard life. He has never been allowed this. He may never be. Now his enlightenment has to come in the form of learning how to vanquish Lord Voldemort, because only he can do it. Speaking of the two, their life-journeys are and always have been destined to come together only because of the prophecy.

T Vrana - Feb 6, 2007 6:27 am (#248 of 1297)

T Vrana, is it written that his less human appearance is due to murders rather than experiments? I thought that part was a bit vague but perhaps I missed something.

I think it is a combination. DD comments something to the effect that LV's soul is maimed beyond repair. I think this is from Horcrux making, from removing the torn bits. I tend to believe if a person murders another, but is truly remorseful and repentant, that bit of soul that tore would heal. The person would remain scarred, but would have an intact soul. If every murder removes a bit of soul, then LV would have split his soul many more times than the 6 times (for 7 Horcruxes) that DD thinks he's trying for.

TheSaint - Feb 6, 2007 9:52 am (#249 of 1297)

Laura,

I think you have overread my comment. No where does it say 'fundamental.' I think that would be an overstatement.

I believe both were or are on a journey to enlightenment. Harry's journey is, of course, the Hogwarts/DD route while Voldemort is trying to reach enlightenment through another route. This other route stems from "his obvious instincts for cruelty, secrecy and domination." He is trying to reach enlightenment through the darkness, and that is very much his own choice.

His education at Hogwarts, being a school of enlightenment, provided him with the information and the tools he would have needed but he choose to ignore the light and sought out a route that would avoid the sacrifice needed to reach the goal the Hogwarts' way. This is his choice.

Harry on the other hand is on the journey of enlightenment, almost there, but I do not believe the journey was his choice. He was set on the path and has made the choices necessary to continue that journey.

You believe the connection between them is the bounced curse, and I believe it to be more than that. I believe that Harry is taking a piece of Voldemort along with him on his journey, and I think it was planned, though not by Voldemort.

I love that so many people can read the same verse and come away with totally different ideas. I have enjoyed the journey even if the path I choose does not lead me to the light. Smile

MickeyCee3948 - Feb 6, 2007 10:59 am (#250 of 1297)

I have always believed that LV's less than human appearance was not due to his soul being torn for Horcruxes.

I believe his rebirthing and his drinking of the Unicorn blood in PS had more to do with his physical appearance.

I doubt that the soul being torn due to commission of a murder would affect his outward appearance. We are given pensieve scenes of Tom after he supposedly started collecting his Horcruxes and there was no change in his appearance (or none which were commented on.)

Mickey

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