Horcruxes (11 Dec 06 to 8 Aug 09) - posts #501 to #550

Potteraholic Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:44 am

me and my shadow 813 - Mar 12, 2007 1:41 pm (#501 of 1297)

Thanks, Magic Words and Phoenix ; )

how would he get rid of the Horcrux without dying in the process - sstabeler

My imagination has the Deathly Hallows --spirits of the founders-- taking or lifting the soul fragment from Harry and taking it through the Veil.

how would he have become a Horcrux when Voldemort couldn't use his wand?

To me the Horcrux spell has not been deciphered as only being done after the murder, so Vold could have prepared the spell --meant for an object at G'sH-- prior to being disembodied.

and why did the Horcrux spell not come out of the Priori Incantatem effect?

The Imperio Curse which was cast by Vold upon Harry at the graveyard in between Crucios did not appear in Priori Incantatem. My sense is we cannot take the absence or presence of regurgitation of spells as a rule for discounting the Harry-scar theory.

I've also been wondering that *if* Harry's scar is a Horcrux, perhaps Vold does not know. The reason I wonder is we've been given an illustration for DH of *possibly* young Tom's badge/award. It is possible that, given we're told Vold killed Amelia Bones, he might want to use the badge/award to make another Horcrux. I've been suspicious as to why JKR made a point of telling the reader that Vold personally killed Bones. Seems trivial information, so why do we need to know this? My sense is the only reason would be Horcrux-making. It could be one of the reasons Vold wanted DEs in the school, why DD had Filch scanning students *leaving* school to Hogsmeade, could be Draco's original task, etc... Any thoughts?

~edited for clarity

journeymom - Mar 12, 2007 6:44 pm (#502 of 1297)

At the end of GoF doesn't Dumbledore explain that if Harry hadn't broken the connection between him and Voldemort, more incantations and AK victims would have come out of the Priori Incantatem?

Magic Words - Mar 12, 2007 7:48 pm (#503 of 1297)

We already have possible answers to these questions, but here are my thoughts.

how would he get rid of the Horcrux without dying in the process

There could be any number of ways. For all we know, there's a simple spell that removes a soul bit from a Horcrux, hence why Voldemort must place additional curses on his objects and hide them in protected sites. Another idea I kind of like would be if someone other than Voldemort AK'd Harry and zapped the soul bit, but Harry survived the same way he survived his first AK. The person doing the AK would have to deal with the rebound, but hey, we have characters just lining up for redemption-by-death, don't we? Then there's always the possibility that Bella will disregard Voldemort's orders and AK Harry in a fit of rage and die that way... (That's what happened to her in a fanfic I wrote once.)

how would he have become a Horcrux when Voldemort couldn't use his wand?

Not necessarily the case. He could have become a Horcrux in the moment Voldemort was using his wand to cast an AK.

why did the Horcrux spell not come out of the Priori Incantatem effect?

I don't know, but probably for the same reason the rebounded AK never came out of the wand. It skipped from Frank Bryce to James (or Lily, depending on your edition), didn't it?

Phoenix - Mar 12, 2007 9:25 pm (#504 of 1297)

I don't know, but probably for the same reason the rebounded AK never came out of the wand. It skipped from Frank Bryce to James (or Lily, depending on your edition), didn't it? - Magic Words

Yet another mystery! I went back and re-read that section in A Priori Incantatem in GoF hoping to spot a clue; and well, as usual, I'm clueless. I also read DD's description of a Priori Incantatem in the next chapter, and the shadows that emerged from the wand were only supposed to be echoes of the last spells the wand performed. But these shadows interacted, and were fully aware of what was going on around them, and literally helped Harry escape. They should not have been able to do that. The only variable I could come up with for this phenomenon is that the cores of the wands were phoenix feathers, and they were surrounded in phoenix music and light. Phoenix regenerates life. I think for that moment in time, they were actually alive.

During the event, what emerged from the wand were the results of the spells -- we didn't hear Voldemort saying "Avada Kedavra", nor did we see the green light of the spell itself. I'm thinking that because the rebounded spell killed it's owner in the past, and in the present in GoF, the owner is casting the spell that's creating the effect, the wand in some fashion 'recognizes' it's owner, so that spell has been negated? Or perhaps the phoenix effect of bringing the shadows to life negates it, as it can't bring back to life that which is already alive? I hope this makes sense...

Anyways, because the Horcrux would have happened as a result of the AK spell, and not a separate spell, it wouldn't have emerged. Does this seem viable, or am I missing something?

TheSaint - Mar 12, 2007 10:53 pm (#505 of 1297)

Choices - I think Harry's skin, wherein lives his mother's protection, stopped the AK. Normally the AK would just go into the victim, leaving no mark, but the force of the AK being suddenly stopped by the protection, caused Harry's skin to "explode" or break open, leaving him with a lightning-bolt shaped cut that eventually becomes the famous scar. (This has to be merely guess work since this is the first time that this has ever happened and the exact mechanics of how it happened we don't know.)

DD says in PS (last chapter, Brit Paperback pg 216) 'Your mother died to save you. If there is one thing Voldemort can't understand, it is love. He didn't realise that love as powerful as your mother's for you leaves its own mark. Not a scar, no visible sign...

If the Priori regurgitates the last spells, then it is incomplete. We know that it missed a couple of things, we just don't know why.

Phoenix - Anyways, because the Horcrux would have happened as a result of the AK spell, and not a separate spell, it wouldn't have emerged. Does this seem viable, or am I missing something?

There is a spell to make a Horcrux. There is an Unforgivable to retrieve a piece of soul with which to make a Horcrux. They are separate things. The Horcrux spell seals the piece of soul within something, the AK retrieves a piece of soul. One does not crack the egg without having a place to put the contents.

TheSaint - Mar 13, 2007 12:56 am (#506 of 1297)

OMG...why didn't I think of this before.

I am on my way to Norse class, but had to get this down. I will try to elaborate later.

It is ill-advised to use a living being as a Horcrux.

What if the aim of Halloween night was to kill Harry Potter, then place your soul piece inside him (primal matter) in him, thus reanimating the body with your soul? Then you have not only a Horcrux, but a living body to use should someone (DD) slip by an AK during the height of the war.

This Horcrux would not think for itself, but think as you think. Maybe even join you (as Voldie has suggested)...two Voldie’s. EEEK.

There is something there, but I must gÂr snakker norsk now! Har det!

Luna Logic - Mar 13, 2007 1:03 am (#507 of 1297)
Edited by Mar 13, 2007 1:07 am

The three questions of sstabeler :

how would he get rid of the Horcrux without dying in the process

Harry has destroyed a Horcrux, without damages (the diary). Something about the Basilisk's poison blood. I think something linked with blood could help to destroy the scar's Horcrux. (I should say : I hope!)

how would he have become a Horcrux when Voldemort couldn't use his wand?

I like the "Lily stand aside" theory ... It could explain both things: the "stand aside silly girl", and why Harry's scar could become a Horcrux.

Why did the Horcrux spell not come out of the Priori Incantatem effect?

My question to this question: does it have to be a wand spell?

But then, Choices' explanation of the skin protection is a very good one too. Thus leaving a scar, that's all.

(but why then Harry's link with Voldemort thoughts?)

Choices - Mar 13, 2007 9:35 am (#508 of 1297)

Something that occurred to me about the Priori Incantatem.....The AK spells came out as the bodies of those killed, the Cruciatus curse came out as screams. Maybe the spells we didn't see or notice didn't register because they were silent and there was no body. Like the Imperio - you couldn't see or hear it because it's victims just obey and make no sound. I don't think a Horcrux spell would make any sound, so you wouldn't see or hear it when it came out of Voldemort's wand. Just a thought.

me and my shadow 813 - Mar 13, 2007 9:36 am (#509 of 1297)

What if the aim of Halloween night was to kill Harry Potter, then place your soul piece inside him (primal matter) in him, thus reanimating the body with your soul? Then you have not only a Horcrux, but a living body to use should someone (DD) slip by an AK during the height of the war. - The Saint

Saint, you mean like an Inferi(us) Horcrux? That's an interesting concept... It might have been possible that whomever was at G's Hollow that night was responsible for taking Harry's corpse back to the Cave and keeping him there. That way he'd be protected by all the enchantments already in place and he'd be "pickled" as the rest of those corpses are... ugh. I've always wondered who was in charge of getting all the murder victims back to the Cave, as that seems to be where the army is "stored". I'm sure Vold doesn't take them there himself, and I'd imagine you cannot simply Apparate them in. In any event, I like your idea -- it's seems possible to me, as other posts regarding Harry's corpse as a Horcrux have been met with responses as to why Vold would put a soul fragment into a body that would be taken by family/friends and embalmed, buried, etc.

edit: Choices, your above post makes sense to me.

Choices - Mar 13, 2007 10:33 am (#510 of 1297)

Along about 2 A.M. last night - one of those night where your mind refuses to shut down - I began to think about Horcruxes. A while back, I brought up the subject of Dumbledore having a Horcrux and I'm still cleaning dungbomb residue out of my clothes, but dauntless as I am, I am going to bring it up again. :-)

Last night I was reading in HBP the part where Dumbledore tells Harry about the Horcruxes and how he believes that Voldemort made a Horcrux out of Nagini. He says that Voldemort seems to care for Nagini about as much as he is capable of caring for anything, and seems to have unusual control over her, even for someone who speaks Parseltongue. This got me to thinking of the similarity between Voldemort and Nagini, and Dumbledore and Fawkes. If Nagini is a Horcrux, could Fawkes be one also?

The only reason I could imagine for Dumbledore making a Horcrux is that he fought and killed Grindelwald in 1945. We know killing splits the soul - we haven't been told there are any exceptions to this - so if Dumbledore killed Grindelwald, his soul split. Maybe, due to his circumstances, he chose to use it to his advantage and make a Horcrux. Dumbledore has told us that it is risky to use a living creature for a Horcrux, but I think with his intelligence and wisdom he chose to use a creature who virtually never dies - a phoenix. He encased his soul bit in Fawkes and this is why they are so close, why Dumbledore has such control over Fawkes and why Fawkes seems to share a bit of Dumbledore's spirit or essence.

I don't think it was an easy thing for Dumbledore to do, feeling as he does about an intact and unblemished soul, but perhaps he knew of the responsibility he had to train the next greatest wizard, the one who would vanquish the next Dark Wizard. (I think someone came up with a theory about that.) The existence of a Horcrux would be insurance against his being killed or dying before his task was complete. I think also that he somehow, perhaps by using a phoenix, insured that one day at his death, his soul bit would reunite with his main soul and be intact and unblemished once again. I think this is what we see happening when Harry saw the phoenix rising from the flames at Dumbledore's funeral. His soul was intact again and was flying off to the next great adventure. Dumbledore is so against teaching about Horcruxes because he knows from experience the awfulness of killing and splitting the soul. He also seems to know about placing soul bits into living creatures or at least enough to know the signs that a creature is possibly a Horcrux. Should we be looking at Fawkes and seeing the signs?

I think JKR uses the word "vanquish" to describe what Dumbledore did to Grindelwald (although she says Grindelwald is dead) to steer us away from the word "kill" - we know that killing splits the soul and that might make it too easy for us to put 2 and 2 together (Dumbledore killed Grindelwald) and come up with Horcrux.

Oh, and I'm sure someone reading this is going to say, "But, if Dumbledore had a Horcrux, why did he die?" My answer (guess) would be that he was 150 and some odd years old, he had completed his task of training Harry, and he had no fear of death. It's possible that even if you have a Horcrux and die, you can choose not to use it. You can just reunite with the soul bit and bravely step into Eternity.

I'm certainly not saying that Dumbledore wanted to create a Horcrux, but more that he had no choice - he had to ensure his continued survival so he could train a young wizard in the future to take his place (Harry). I believe when Harry goes to kill Voldemort, we will see Fawkes again and he will join with Harry as he did with Dumbledore and he may even become a Horcrux once again to help ensure that at the end, like Dumbledore, Harry will again have a pure and unblemished soul.

Do my 2 A.M. thoughts stand up in the cold light of day? LOL

haymoni - Mar 13, 2007 11:01 am (#511 of 1297)

I think it sounds good, but I think Dumbledore would still be alive in some form. Vapordore, if you will.

Now...unlike Vapormort, who wanted to get his body back, maybe Vapordore doesn't care about a body and realizes that he can do more as Vapordore then as Dumbledore.

Plus a body can be a troublesome thing - you need chamber pots and socks - it's a lot of hassle.

sstabeler - Mar 13, 2007 12:34 pm (#512 of 1297)

OK, my responses to the points raised by the pro-Harry-is-a-Horcrux people-

1) spell done beforehand

You'll forgive me, but where is the canon that this is possible? There have been no previous examples of spells being done beforehand. Not to mention, how would he get the soul bit from Harry's murder out if he had already performed the spell? I just don't buy this one unless a canon example of a SPELL being done beforehand is given. Note my emphasis on spell. Lily's sacrifice effect wasn't a spell from Lily. I'm sorry, but I think of spells as being done after any preparation (like murders, thinking up a good memory, etc) not before.

2) those that say Harry surviving a second AK - Who would love Harry enough to set off the spell and yet not give Voldemort the satisfaction of killing one of his main targets? The only 4 candidates are Molly Weasley, Hermione, Ginny and Ron, any of which dying would be a good day's work for Voldemort. While I can see this happening canonically, I think it would be unlikely, more from Harry not letting them die for him than anything else.

3) Priori Incantatem not proof

This one I do buy. why? I forgot about Frank Bryce. indeed, Horcruxes do not appear in Priori Incantatem. However, this is not proof of Harry being a Horcrux, just the removal of a reason why he cannot. Not quite the same thing.

4) AK creating a Horcrux

Again, I don't buy it. An AK is supposed to kill, I mean, if it also creates a Horcrux, then how come Rosier, for instance, didn't become vaporised? After all, surely Voldemort would do a vapoured follower a favour and get a new body sorted out for them? Get a house-elf to donate the flash (I think they qualify as servants), blood of the enemy, well, just send the DEs to capture an Auror for some blood, and that problem is solved, as for bone of father, same way as Voldemort. again, I do not think AKs can ever also be Horcrux spells, or the DEs would always survive.

5) Diary

Harry didn't die, but diary-Riddle did, and that's my point. How to get a Horcrux out of yourself without offing yourself?

6) Horcrux-removal spell

This I can believe, although surely Dumbledore would have mentioned it in one of his lessons?

As for Vapourdore, sorry, but Dumbledore can't exactly talk about the benefits of a whole soul if he doesn't have one himself. Not to mention- who has Dumbledore murdered? its murder, not necessarily killing that splits the soul.

haymoni - Mar 13, 2007 1:01 pm (#513 of 1297)

I had put forth the Dumbledore-made-a-Horcrux theory and got blown to bits because Dumbledore would never do such an evil thing.

My reasoning was that when he killed Grindelwald - vanquished, whatever - he realized that another evil wizard could come down the pike and he needed to keep himself around until he could be certain that another could take his place.

Dumbledore seems satisfied with Harry, so he has let himself become Vapordore.

sstabeler - Mar 13, 2007 1:11 pm (#514 of 1297)

still, there is the problem it takes the supreme act of evil. killing isn't necessarily evil. only murder.

TheSaint - Mar 13, 2007 1:18 pm (#515 of 1297)

sstabeler - spell done beforehand - You'll forgive me, but where is the canon that this is possible?

Umm...here is the canon that it is not? The only canon we have regarding Horcrux making is that a spell is required to seal the soulbit into an object...the rest is theory. We try all different angles. I often pull out a bowl before cracking an egg... less messy that way. No one is trying to convince you of anything.

4) AK creating a Horcrux

There is a spell to make a Horcrux. There is an Unforgivable to retrieve a piece of soul with which to make a Horcrux. They are separate things. The Horcrux spell seals the piece of soul within something, the AK retrieves a piece of soul. One does not crack the egg without having a place to put the contents. See previous post. 2 separate spells.

5) Diary

Who says he won't have to off himself? Many of us think he will have to make the supreme sacrifice.

As for Fawkes being a Horcrux...I think Fawkes was with DD out of love, not obligation. Isn't it said the phoenix chooses you, much like a wand?

sstabeler - Mar 13, 2007 1:25 pm (#516 of 1297)

There isn't canon that that specific spell isn't done beforehand, but most spells are done when you want the effect. that is what I am basing it on, and why I request canon evidence of a spell that can be performed beforehand.

The AK splits the soul, it does not rip it from the body. Slughorn says that it tears the soul and says there is a spell to encase the torn portion in a Horcrux. I.e. you rip your soul first, then remove the ripped off part and encase it in the object you want as your Horcrux.

TheSaint - Mar 13, 2007 1:39 pm (#517 of 1297)

ss - you rip your soul first, then remove the ripped off part and encase it in the object you want as your Horcrux.

Yes, what we are saying is that you may have to do something or say something prior to the AK to either prepare the receiving vessel, or earmark the piece of soul you wish to use, as Voldie had already killed two other people prior to attempting to kill Harry. If he uses soul bits from significant murders, then he needs to earmark the bit he is about to create as the one he would like to use.

Steve Newton - Mar 13, 2007 2:55 pm (#518 of 1297)

"spell done beforehand You'll forgive me, but where is the canon that this is possible?"

TheSaint answered this pretty well. There is also the possibility that the spell creating the receptacle for the soul bit was done and waiting for the arrival of it bit.

Magic Words - Mar 13, 2007 3:26 pm (#519 of 1297)

Who would love Harry enough to set off the spell [of protection against AK] -sstabeler

Do we have reason to believe Lily's original sacrifice isn't still in place? It doesn't seem to protect against Voldemort anymore, because he share's Harry's blood, and I guess it's possible that it only protected against Voldemort in the first place because he's the one Lily died protecting Harry against, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that if Harry could survive an AK once (not to mention burning Quirrell), he can do it again. I'm not saying I think this is what will happen - in fact, I think it's pretty unlikely that I would guess the events of DH in this level of detail. I'm only putting it forward as an example of how Harry being a Horcrux and surviving could work, if JKR chose to make it so.

I do not think AKs can ever also be Horcrux spells, or the DEs would always survive.

According to my particular theory (I realize there are variations), an AK only functions as a Horcrux spell under outstanding conditions. An ordinary DE has never had an AK rebound and create a momentary link between himself and his intended target.

Re Dumbledore having a Horcrux. I've found myself debating on other threads with people who don't think Dumbledore ordered Snape to kill him because "Dumbledore wouldn't do such a thing." I'm trying not to be hypocritical and use exactly the same argument here... so... hmm. If JKR were to go that route, I think the biggest problem would be presenting it as a sacrifice rather than a triumph. Harry (not to mention readers) would be elated to have Dumbledore back, so JKR would have to make it very clear that this was an act of necessity rather than cheating death in any way.

Soul Search - Mar 13, 2007 3:31 pm (#520 of 1297)

haymoni,

"Plus a body can be a troublesome thing - you need chamber pots and socks - it's a lot of hassle."

Thanks for that. I literally laughed out loud.

MickeyCee3948 - Mar 13, 2007 3:43 pm (#521 of 1297)

The discussion in the last 36 hours has included. How can Harry have the scar(Horcrux) removed without killing himself? I have been thinking(very dangerous for everyone around me). We have seen at least 2 examples where Fawkes has saved Harry and healed serious wounds. I have no canon for this so sstabeler don't ask but is it conceivable that Fawkes could drop some tears on Harry's scar and thus dissolve and remove the part of Voldemort that resides inside of Harry. Very long shot but we have been told of the healing powers of the Phoenix. Just think about it and be gentle.

A number of you are also trying to say that Harry could NOT be a Horcrux because Voldemort did not have time to make the Horcrux after the curse backfired.

You may be correct!

But that assumes that Harry is a full bodied complete Horcrux. The AK curse that rebounded had never happen before. NO ONE knows what the effects were. NO ONE can quote Canon because there is none. I can't speak for everyone but I personally am not of the opinion that Harry is a complete Horcrux. I believe he has some of the characteristics of a Horcrux. I believe he contains a soul bit from Voldemort, it may not be a Horcrux, it may be called something totally different in Potterverse.

I am going to have to wait until July to find out if I'm right just like the rest of you. But I am firm in my stand and I have seen nothing to change my opinion.

Mickey

HungarianHorntail11 - Mar 13, 2007 3:51 pm (#522 of 1297)

sstableler, I cannot think of any spell that is a two-step process, period. But the closest I can get is: Sectumsempra (spoken spell) afterward, wand is waved with as many slashes as you wish to see marked on your enemy.

All other spells seem to be cast and the effect comes afterward.

Not quite sure I understand your Point #4.

#5, well, I think there is something else there with regard to Harry destroying the diary and the Horcrux - but I'll get back to that. For speculation purposes only, Harry could have stuck the fang into his scar and it might have had the same effect, destroying the Horcrux. It doesn't necessarily mean it will kill him. People have survived worse (has anyone ever watched those reality ER shows?).

Okay, back to Harry destroying the diary Horcrux. I have been very suspicious of the fact that Harry was able to destroy the diary Horcrux without suffering any repercussions and we can use DD's hand as an example. WHY didn't he get hurt?

I really feel as though the Horcrux spell that keeps it contained "recognizes" Harry because of the soul bit in him. That is why I felt as though he was able to destroy it without being harmed.

Luna Logic wrote: Harry has destroyed a Horcrux, without damages (the diary). Something about the Basilisk's poison blood. I think something linked with blood could help to destroy the scar's Horcrux. (I should say : I hope!)

Why the glint in DD's eye when he found out in GoF that Big V used Harry's blood? It seems likely that the two will come together (Harry with Big V's Horcrux in him and Big V with Harry's Blood in him) and manifest itself as a self-destructive mistake overlooked by Big V.

I like your idea about the Priori Incantatem spells and why some do not "surface", Choices.

I tried to edit so this makes sense but I keep getting interrupted - I give up.

me and my shadow 813 - Mar 13, 2007 4:19 pm (#523 of 1297)

I really feel as though the Horcrux spell that keeps it contained "recognizes" Harry because of the soul bit in him. That is why I felt as though he was able to destroy it without being harmed. - HH11

I have posted this very thought before and (of course) agree it is possible...

edit: rather, I have posted that the other soul fragments recognise the soul fragment in Harry, thus do not "attack" as they seem to have done to DD.

Regarding this burning question as to how/when the Horcrux spell is performed, I keep going back to intention and, more specifically, the relationship between a wizard and his wand. I have personally come to the conclusion that the wand is a direct extension of the wizard's(witch's) mind and will. When I researched the Dark Arts on the Lexicon, intention is emphasised as a basis of magical outcome. Therefore, I can envision Vold being capable of *intending* a Horcrux to be made from a particular murder as it occurs (or even before it has occurred?) such as Vold intending a Horcrux to be made at G's Hollow from Harry's death rather than James's. To me it could be done beforehand, along with the object being in close proximity, with the spell needed as a seal...? This differs from, for example, when young Vold murdered his family and later seized the ring from Morfin and encased a fragment in the ring from those murders. It is possible that young Vold didn't actually think of using his father and grandparents murders for a Horcrux until after the fact. But with Harry, it was already very much at the forefront of his mind at the point of the AK. Farfetched, perhaps, but that's where I'm at.

haymoni - Mar 13, 2007 5:09 pm (#524 of 1297)

I figured it was a double spell.

Voldy said "AK" and immediately followed it with whatever the incantation is for making a Horcrux.

Because he is a powerful wizard, I am also assuming that he can perform wandless magic and nonverbal spells.

If the AK rebounded at the same time he was saying/thinking the Horcrux spell, another bit of his soul could have gotten sucked into Harry.

He meant to cast the spell but use some unknown trinket. Instead the soulbit went into Harry, but Voldy doesn't know that this happened.

Therefore, Voldy continues on his quest to make his soul split into 7 parts and doesn't realize that Harry is a Horcrux. I don't think Harry will figure this out until the final battle.

That's my theory & I'm stickin' to it.

That and my "Otto-Bagman-is-the-big-blond-Death-Eater" Theory.

Choices - Mar 13, 2007 5:51 pm (#525 of 1297)

sstabeler - "sorry, but Dumbledore can't exactly talk about the benefits of a whole soul if he doesn't have one himself."

LOL Ever been to an AA meeting and heard a former alcoholic speak of the virtues of being sober? Dumbledore may just be the voice of experience - sometimes it is only after you lose something that you realize how very precious it is.

HH11, I think the diary Horcrux was the only one we have seen that served a double purpose. It was a Horcrux and it was a means to have the Chamber of Secrets opened again. As such, I don't think it could have the usual dangerous protections placed on it like the other Horcruxes. Too many people might handle it - Lucius Malfoy, Ginny, Harry, Ron and Hermione might have touched it, etc. Therefore, I think it was in some ways less dangerous than the other Horcruxes and thus easier for Harry to destroy.

Ojman - Mar 13, 2007 7:16 pm (#526 of 1297)

And now for something completely different. At least, I think so, although I haven't made it through all the posts on this subject. This is in the line of Arithmancy.

I wonder what is the distribution of soul bits among multiple Horcruxes? Are they equally distributed across all Horcruxes, or do the earlier Horcruxes contain larger soul bits?

If soul bits are distributed equally across all Horcruxes, then a wizard/witch with six Horcruxes, would have 1/7th (0.143) of a soul in each Horcrux and his/her own body. This would require the soul bits to redistribute themselves between Horcruxes, at, or after, the moment each additional Horcrux was created, assuming all of them were not created at the same time. If one of the soul bits were destroyed, like LV's at G's H, then the total amount of soul in all Horcruxes and body would be 6/7. If another Horcrux were to be created, this total would remain the same, but the size of the soul bit in each Horcrux and body would drop to 6/49, or 0.122. Subsequent to this, the witch/wizard would never be able to recover a full soul, even if he/she could reabsorb all the soul bits from the Horcruxes.

If a soul is split roughly in half every time an additional Horcrux is created, then the first Horcrux, the ring, would have contained half a soul; the second, the diary, 1/4; and the last Horcrux of six (and the body) would contain 1/2 to the sixth power, or 1/64 (0.016) of a soul.

Which way, I wonder, makes it easier, if at all, to kill the split-souled wizard? How little soul did LV have remaining in his body before he became snakelike?

HungarianHorntail11 - Mar 14, 2007 4:06 am (#527 of 1297)

That makes sense, Choices. Perhaps it would have tried to take Lucius, even - but Lucius knew better.

Ojman, I don't think there is an easy way to kill Big V. But we do know the Horcruxes must be destroyed before the wizard who made them.

frogface - Mar 14, 2007 6:36 am (#528 of 1297)

I have a hard time imagining that something like a soul can be measured, or come in amounts.

haymoni - Mar 14, 2007 7:32 am (#529 of 1297)

If Jo can't even figure out how many Gryffindors there are, how can we expect her to know about fractions of soul?

I don't know that it matters how much of your soul ends up in a Horcrux.

You have chosen to permanently sever it from the rest, so you are already up a creek.

Choices - Mar 14, 2007 9:13 am (#530 of 1297)

Haymoni - "You have chosen to permanently sever it from the rest, so you are already up a creek."

And without a paddle, I might add. LOL Well said, Haymoni. :-)

PatPat - Mar 14, 2007 12:16 pm (#531 of 1297)

Ojman, along the lines of what frogface said, your ideas are very interesting, but assumes that the soul is a finite thing that stays constant. I don't believe that is true. I believe as we grow and adapt and learn, our soul grows with us. I don't think it is something that can be quantified. It's like trying to count grains of sand on a beach. Can't be done because, not only are there a huge amount, but they are constantly changing as the tide goes in and out.

Phoenix - Mar 14, 2007 8:18 pm (#532 of 1297)

Choices, I read your theory on Dumbledore having a Horcrux, and the theory is fascinating! That was very creative, and I really like it! I was thinking that since we can be reasonably sure he would have made only one Horcrux, perhaps he can be called 'Double'dore? Neville said as much (twice) at the end of OotP in the MoM when his nose was broken, except it was spelled "Dubbledore" (a clue perhaps?)

Regarding the diary, maybe the protection was the Horcrux itself? It was the Horcrux that 'charmed', deceived and was sucking the life-force from Ginny, and it was the Horcrux that was setting the basilisk on Harry. The fact that it was outside of the diary and taking form may have been why Harry was able to destroy it. Just a thought.

*edit* I had to post this - I found a site where they proposed a theory that Dementors could remove the Horcrux from Harry! It's at: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] It's an interesting discussion, but to get to the theory, scroll to "dbassassin" 4/29/06.

HungarianHorntail11 - Mar 15, 2007 9:59 am (#533 of 1297)

I like the Dementor idea!

Phoenix - Mar 15, 2007 11:46 am (#534 of 1297)

HH11 - it is the one thing that could remove the soulbit without harming Harry - well, at least not permanently harming him.

You know, this thread is great! In reading it, yours and everyone’s ideas are so incredibly creative and thought provoking! --It's imagining the impossible and making it work! Although my ideas are certainly not up to par with everyone else's (perhaps in time...), I've already thought about things I've never considered! It's exciting!

Choices - Mar 15, 2007 5:04 pm (#535 of 1297)

How would the Dementor know when to stop? Hey, just suck out that little soul bit up top and leave the regular soul alone. Can you ask a Dementor to be selective?

Thom Matheson - Mar 15, 2007 5:05 pm (#536 of 1297)

Just like chips, "Bet You Can't Eat Just One".

Phoenix - Mar 15, 2007 8:49 pm (#537 of 1297)

I guess I was imagining an attack on Harry that was warded off in the nick of time where the kiss only consumes the Horcrux. Your right, I don't think a Dementor could eat just one. The MoM couldn't control them, and now that they are aligned with Voldemort, definitely not.

frogface - Mar 16, 2007 2:23 am (#538 of 1297)

How about it Harry strapped a Horcrux to his lips! Sorry. Couldn't resist it.

Phoenix - Mar 16, 2007 3:00 pm (#539 of 1297)

Very cute...You know, this isn't even my theory! Why am I getting the dungbombs?? Even so, I STILL think it's a viable way to get the Horcrux out! There's not an awful lot of canon on 'soul-bit removal'. *sigh* - But if you don't like it, just file it with the "Dumbledore is a giant squid" theory, and move on.

In an ever-so-valiant attempt to desperately change the subject, I do have a question. Has there been much discussion of how Voldemort, after being connected to Harry twice, would not have noticed a Horcrux? (By 'being connected', I'm referring to the time Voldemort possessed Harry in HBP, and the time in OotP they were connected in the snake - it's interesting that both times of 'possession', it took place at the MoM). It seems Voldemort would have noticed a bit of his soul in Harry.

Choices - Mar 16, 2007 5:03 pm (#540 of 1297)

I hate to say it, but if Harry turns out to be a Horcrux, real or partial, on purpose or accidental, whatever.....I am going to be totally and completely disappointed in Dumbledore for not noticing (even thought magic leaves traces) or just knowing, but not telling Harry. (Dinner conversation) "Excuse me Minerva, but did you know you have a bit of spinach in your teeth? And forgive me Harry, but you've got a Horcrux in your head...just there," said Dumbledore, pointing to Harry's scar. "Thought I ought to warn you."

TwinklingBlueEyes - Mar 16, 2007 5:08 pm (#541 of 1297)

Choices! You really have to post a warning before you make a post like that! Since I "was" eating dinner when I read that conversation...

...toddles off to find something to clean up this mess with...

Edit: That was priceless! Also I agree with you!

Choices - Mar 16, 2007 5:12 pm (#542 of 1297)

Sorry, TBE. Will send over a house elf with some Mrs. Skower's Mess Remover. :-)

PatPat - Mar 16, 2007 5:44 pm (#543 of 1297)

Choices,

LOL. That was great. AND I completely agree with you. In fact, that is my principal argument AGAINST Harry being a Horcrux. I just don't see how JKR could justify Dumbledore not knowing. And, if he did know, how can she justify him not telling Harry?? The entire point of HBP was Dumbledore preparing Harry to defeat Voldemort. Don't you think that would be a HUGE piece of information to leave out? As I've mentioned before, I believe that Dumbledore has stopped seeing Harry as a child. He is past keeping information from him because he is afraid it will hurt him. If Harry is a Horcrux, wouldn't it be better for him to find out in Dumbledore's office with his trusted advisor in front of him, rather than finding out on his own, possibly when he is in a vulnerable state? "Oh, sorry Voldemort, but I have to go get this Horcrux out of my head before we can duel. Do you mind waiting for just a moment?"

Laura W - Mar 17, 2007 2:15 am (#544 of 1297)

... Even so, I STILL think it's a viable way to get the Horcrux out! There's not an awful lot of canon on 'soul-bit removal'. *sigh* - But if you don't like it, just file it with the "Dumbledore is a giant squid" theory, and move on." (Phoenix)

What!? Are you implying that the giant squid is a Horcrux!? Oh my! (GASP!)

Laura

(hope that little bit of silliness made you smile and feel better, Phoenix)

frogface - Mar 17, 2007 2:21 am (#545 of 1297)

Yeah don't feel bad. Lots of theories get shot down in this forum, its just the way it works. I've read far worse thought-out theories than yours in my time here. Yours is at least based on logic. So don't hesitate to post any more ideas - I need something to read while I wait for DH!

haymoni - Mar 17, 2007 3:34 am (#546 of 1297)

I think keeping the fact that Harry is a Horcrux is actually more in line with what Dumbledore has done.

For 5 books (since it was revealed at the end), Dumbledore withheld the information about Harry being the Prophecy Boy.

Maybe telling Harry that he has a bit of Voldy inside of him was more than Dumbledore could handle.

Or...maybe, if Harry is an accidental Horcrux, Dumbledore truly doesn't know.

Soul Search - Mar 17, 2007 5:12 am (#547 of 1297)

I'm not sure how the storyline could be properly worked, but we may end up with a scenario like Harry has had a bit of Voldemort soul hanging around his scar, but it is not properly a Horcrux. That is, the soul bit in the scar isn't a proper Horcrux and can't prevent Voldemort from "going over."

Besides, I am of the mind that Voldemort won't be killed, exactly, but will have his soul sucked out by a Dementor, so the Horcruxes won't actually matter.

Magic Words - Mar 17, 2007 8:49 am (#548 of 1297)

Maybe this is overly complicated... but what if Dumbledore suspected Harry might be a Horcrux, and tried to find out, but since Harry wasn't a "true" Horcrux (because he was accidental, or alive, or something) he ended up missing whatever signature Dumbledore was looking for, so Dumbledore concluded that his suspicions were wrong?

haymoni - Mar 17, 2007 10:39 am (#549 of 1297)

Dumbledore says that when he makes mistakes...they are big ones!

HungarianHorntail11 - Mar 18, 2007 9:10 am (#550 of 1297)

I'm trying, Magic Words, but can't imagine putting it into literary terms.

DD: "Well, I thought he was but then, I realized he wasn't but I was wrong in thinking he wasn't but right when I thought he was, so I was wrong - except of course, when I was right. Hehe."

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Potteraholic Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:48 am

Magic Words - Mar 18, 2007 11:01 am (#551 of 1297)

HH11, I was thinking more along the lines of a conversation between Harry and Dumbledore's portrait.

Harry: You said you wouldn't keep any more secrets from me! Well, I just found out that I'm a Horcrux and you never even mentioned it! Thanks a lot!

DD: What? You can't be a Horcrux. You don't fit the pattern at all!

Harry: Explain that to the soul bit in my head!

Phoenix - Mar 19, 2007 7:14 am (#552 of 1297)

LOL, Laura! And thanks, Frogface....I think. Sorry, everybody. I guess I got oversensitive.

At any rate, I don't think Dumbledore believes Harry is a Horcrux. I think any suspicions he may have had were negated in OotP when he saw the smoke snakes and decided they were in essence divided. Dumbledore would never pass up a chance to destroy a Horcrux, especially one right under his nose. I think Magic Words is right, the signature was somehow obscured through the accidental transference. And I agree with the idea that this scene in OotP would support that the scar is the Horcrux, not Harry.

TheSaint - Mar 19, 2007 8:27 am (#553 of 1297)

The scar is part of Harry's head. Is it the 'scar is a Horcrux' supporters' contention that if the scar is a Horcrux then it is only subcutaneous? You could just cut the skin to release it?

T Vrana - Mar 19, 2007 9:04 am (#554 of 1297)

I think Magic Words is right, the signature was somehow obscured through the accidental transference.

Or it could be that Harry, as a whole soul, highly magical wizard obscures the magic of a soul fragment. Finding magical traces in the cave, a nonmagical place, must be easier than finding magical traces at Hogwarts, a highly magical place (thus the reason a wizard like DD couldn't run his fingers around Myrtles bathroom and find the entrance to the Chamber). In the same way, detecting a soul fragment from a wizard with a maimed soul, on the forehead of a wizard with a pure, intact magical soul, would seem quite difficult if not impossible.

But, I do think DD suspects Harry is Horcrux like. How else do we explain the LV talents Harry has? And, 'in essence divided', I think was an indication he suspected Harry has a bit of LV soul. Why not tell him? DD' #1 priority has to be destroying LV, even at Harry's peril. So, either telling him won't help defeat LV or help Harry, or it doesn't matter. If they are 'in essence divided' perhaps Harry's soul bit isn't acting like a Horcrux, isn't tethering LV's soul.

Just a thought...

Phoenix - Mar 19, 2007 10:54 am (#555 of 1297)

The Saint - That's an interesting point. Although, in imagining Harry's scar as a Horcrux, I viewed it as joining with the skin. Consequently, it wouldn't matter if you cut it - it couldn't just fall out on the ground. Admittedly, I'm one who thinks it would be really horrible if Harry himself was a Horcrux. I would think Harry would be a great deal more affected, perhaps even morally.

Finding magical traces in the cave, a nonmagical place, must be easier than finding magical traces at Hogwarts, a highly magical place... T Vrana

I think that's an excellent point. Plus, the AK curse would have left it's signature on Harry.

How else do we explain the LV talents Harry has? T Vrana

Perhaps DD thinks just as he said - that he inadvertently transferred some of his talents. I think you're right, though, that the only reason DD wouldn't tell Harry his suspicions is if there was nothing he could do. DD takes stock in Sybill's prophecy only because Voldemort made the first move - because of that, Harry is the 'chosen one' so to speak, so I think he can't destroy Harry Horcrux without destroying the one chance to get rid of Voldemort.

T Vrana - Mar 19, 2007 11:54 am (#556 of 1297)

Perhaps DD thinks just as he said - that he inadvertently transferred some of his talents

Perhaps, but the how is still missing, the mechanics, if you will. DD is brilliant and curious, he must have a theory regarding how a transfer of powers could occur. The only hint we have of a possible way is a soul bit. If it isn't a soul bit, what could it be?

Most everything else about that night has been revealed:

1) How Harry survived an AK. (Mother's love/sacrifice, ancient magic)

2) Why LV was after Harry. (prophecy)

3) Who revealed the prophecy. (Snape)

4) Who betrayed the Potter's location. (Peter)

5) Why did LV survive a rebounding AK? (Horcruxes)

What we don't know:

1) How did Harry actually get some of LV's powers?

2) Why did DD have James' cloak?

For question #1, is it that Jo is going to leave it a mystery, just one of those unexplained things? Or is she going to tell us in DH. If she has kept it for DH, it has to be something fairly big. I can't think of anything that fits other than Harry as Horcrux-like.

TheSaint - Mar 19, 2007 11:56 am (#557 of 1297)

Phoenix - I would think Harry would be a great deal more affected, perhaps even morally.

Perhaps a reason DD wouldn't tell him.

I tend to think of the scar as a symbol of Harry's third eye. The symbol of his enlightenment and his future source of DD like powers. It seems to fit with what I think some of us are expecting of him in 7.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Wikpedia's definition is a good one too.

Soul Search - Mar 19, 2007 12:02 pm (#558 of 1297)

I had a horrible thought ... sorry in advance.

Dumbledore kept the prophecy from Harry to protect him, fearing what knowledge like he has to "kill or be killed" would do to the young Harry.

What could possibly be worse than, because Harry IS a Horcrux, he has to die to defeat Voldemort. Something like they each AK the other and Harry, the last Horcrux, is destroyed, so Voldemort's soul is not bound to the Earth. Unfortunately, Harry has to die in the process. No way around it.

Dumbledore wouldn't tell Harry because, if he had too much time to think about it, he might choose not to enter the arena at all.

A bit unfair, but Dumbledore has been focused on destroying Voldemort for a long time. The "arena" conversation seems to be tacit support for the idea; Dumbledore was making sure Harry would enter the arena, no matter what. Dumbledore probably sacrificed his own life for that cause, why not Harry too?

It's my hope this isn't true, but it does seem to fit everything I can think of.

haymoni - Mar 19, 2007 12:12 pm (#559 of 1297)

It certainly is a possibility, Soul Search.

I do NOT want to see Harry die, but there may not be another way.

"You're gonna suffer, but you're going to be happy about it."

Maybe Harry will find a way around it.

Choices - Mar 19, 2007 5:48 pm (#560 of 1297)

Why is it that we are perfectly willing to accept the fact that Lily died for Harry, and her sacrifice enabled him to survive the AK, but we find it difficult to accept that some of Voldemort's powers were transferred to Harry? Some keep trying to complicate matters by making Harry a Horcrux. I have never heard the soul referred to as a "power", and we were definitely told that it was powers that were transferred. I just have to accept that.... until JKR tells me otherwise. I can't stretch powers into a piece of Voldemort's soul. Harry may have repeated that "Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?", but it was Dumbledore (the expert) who first said "powers", not "piece of soul". Powers can just as easily translate as a "piece of himself".

Magic Words - Mar 19, 2007 6:26 pm (#561 of 1297)

Choices, which theory is more complicated is a matter of opinion, IMHO. If we start with the whole series in our heads (as JKR has it), it would be just as easy to say that we have two instances of something being transferred from Voldemort to a vessel of some kind--why complicate matters by after all two different things?

To be honest, though, it isn't that I can't accept the explanation that Voldemort transferred some powers to Harry. When it comes down to it, the reason I defend this theory--the reason I look for explanations that make it work--is because I made the connection between two instances of Voldemort after all something of himself, something not very well defined... and I decided it would be a terrific plot twist if the two turned out to be the same.

Thom Matheson - Mar 19, 2007 7:16 pm (#562 of 1297)

Choices, You took the words right out of my mouth. As I was scrolling thru the last few posts chomping at the bit to get to the bottom, in order to state that which you said so well.

If that were true would Voldemort also gain some of the qualities of Wormtail, Riddle sr. or Harry back after the rebirthing? For that matter Harry could have also transferred back the soul bit that Voldemort gave him as well. That satisfies both sides.

TheSaint - Mar 19, 2007 9:35 pm (#563 of 1297)

The question about the power transfer has to do with the direction of the bounce. In order for the powers to be sent they had to have been in the AK when it was originally cast, as it bounced off Harry and returned to Voldie.

Luna Logic - Mar 20, 2007 1:21 am (#564 of 1297)
Edited by Mar 20, 2007 1:25 am

Choices : Harry may have repeated that "Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?", but it was Dumbledore (the expert) who first said "powers", not "piece of soul". Powers can just as easily translate as a "piece of himself".

Choices, you achieved to make me change my mind about Harry's scar = Horcrux ! And I’m very gad of that. (Sorry for the difficult expression of my following reasoning )

We know that the ‘amount of powers" is important in the magical theory. The wizards seems to be born with a definite quantity of powers, they differ, in that way, on a scale going from Cracmol to the most powerful ones.

Nathan Zimmermann's analysis of Chapter 13 (HBP) made (IMO) the demonstration of Voldemort's innate powers. (source: see from first post here)

Could we imagine "powers" as a sort of "genetic" substance, which could, at birth, be present in various quantity in a baby wizard ?

(more precisely, as a gene, which would be present or not, and then responsible for the production and reproduction of a certain amount of powers, as we can see in the production of some chemical/biological substances, insulin for example? Help ! I’m not a biologist)

Thus the powers could be put in every magical act of the wizard, depending this time of his ability to use his powers (will, entrainment, experience, skill...)

To do a magical act, the wizard would have to put his intent in the act, and also try to put in the act all his "magical strength" = "powers".

To be accorded with Choices proposition, could it be that a part of the powers would be transferred in the magical act, through the wand (or even wandless, for some). Not transmitted to the ‘target’, in the ordinary cases, but anyway ‘driven out’ , outside the transmitting wizard. Every magical act would "take" a part of the powers of the wizard (leading to exhaustion the "feeble" ones). The image would be "powers" = energy, but an innate energy, refillable after a little time, upon an innate source.

Back to the GH's scene : because of Lily's Love shield, the Avada could have transferred to Harry this little part Voldemort's powers which were used in the magical act by Voldemort through his wand.

Thus the yin yang theory would fit : Harry's substance contains, from there, a part of Voldemort powers (the’ whole’ of it, but a tiny part), and now, Voldemort's substance contains a part of Harry's (the blood) .

It would fit with Dumbledore’s statement ( "But in essence divided?"). And Dumbledore’s information to Harry would be true : Harry does possess a fraction of all Voldemort’s powers. But he has not the same intents.

Now, would the powers be a part of the soul or the body?

I will say, part of the body, because when Voldemort did lost his body, it is said that he have lost his powers too. But he had not lost his soul.

(Hoping that somebody will grasp a part of it and "translate" my thoughts before tearing at it!)

haymoni - Mar 20, 2007 6:04 am (#565 of 1297)

So Lily's "shield" acted as a sort of filter?

It let Voldy's strength, powers, talent get through, but not the actual AK?

Phoenix - Mar 20, 2007 6:51 am (#566 of 1297)

T Vrana, I see your point, and I like your listing. I have one thing to add to each: We also know the general sequence of events that night because of the Dementors effect on Harry; and we also don't know why Harry has that mental link to Voldemort, and why his scar hurts when he's close to him.

Saint, thanks for the site! I've studied a bit about that, and I like the concept of the third eye. I would agree with you, except that the scar has been acting more like a direct link to Voldemort exclusively. Also could you explain the 'direction of the bounce' theory a bit more? I'm not quite sure I'm getting it.

Choices and Luna Logic, I think that's totally plausible. But its not just about the powers, it's the connection Harry has to Voldemort, as well as the pain he feels when he's in his presence (as I stated above). Dumbledore admits himself that he makes mistakes, and all of this is uncharted territory. So, IMO, it's also plausible that all of this could have come from a Horcrux. We are fairly certain that Voldemort intended to make a Horcrux with Harry's death, so the intention was there when he cast the AK spell. I don't know if Harry has a Horcrux, and I used to think this was a load of rubbish -- but there are some compelling arguments in favor of it, so I'm not ruling it out.

Haymoni, our posts crossed - that was a great point!

T Vrana - Mar 20, 2007 8:45 am (#567 of 1297)

Choices Why is it that we are perfectly willing to accept the fact that Lily died for Harry, and her sacrifice enabled him to survive the AK, but we find it difficult to accept that some of Voldemort's powers were transferred to Harry?

The difference, to me, is that DD explained why Harry survived the AK, but hasn't said a word about the powers. That is, DD made it clear that Harry survived the AK because of very deep, old magic, the willing, loving sacrifice of a mother for her child. But he hasn't said a word about how Harry gained these powers. Why not? Why leave it unexplained? Unless there is an explanation that Jo doesn't want to give yet.

Phoenix We also know the general sequence of events that night because of the Dementors effect on Harry; and we also don't know why Harry has that mental link to Voldemort, and why his scar hurts when he's close to him.

Good point.

Jenniffler - Mar 20, 2007 9:18 am (#568 of 1297)

So, LV transferred his powers and many character traits to Harry through the scar because that's all that was left after he had prepared his soul to be encased(in something.) His soul reacted to Lily's sacrifice by being totally expelled by the rebounded AK. And, being reversed, the AK had a new and powerful obliterating effect on the caster(his body now soulless) and much of GH?

off topic* Dumbledore can spot an invisibility cloak every time.

Snape can sense something is off but never quite verify the presence of the invisibility cloak that is being used.

Can Voldemort tell if an invisibility cloak is being used? I don't remember one being used around him except in PS/SS When Harry spies on Snape and Quirrelmort in the dark forest. Obviously no detection there!

Also, I think Horcruxes are not designed to be multiple. They are supreme evil and competing vessels holding individual soul parts weaken the effort Voldemort can use to keep them dark, secret, and out of the way. As the numbers dwindle I think we as readers will see Voldemort scramble to put extra protection on the remaining Horcruxes and make it more simple for Harry and the good guys to illuminate them.

Luna Logic - Mar 20, 2007 11:28 am (#569 of 1297)
Edited by Mar 20, 2007 11:45 am

T Vrana: What we don't know: 1) How did Harry actually get some of LV's powers?

Phoenix: we also don't know why Harry has that mental link to Voldemort, and why his scar hurts when he's close to him.

Haymoni : So Lily's "shield" acted as a sort of filter?

It let Voldy's strength, powers, talent get through, but not the actual AK?

The ‘filter’ idea reminded me of Choices #498 I think Harry's skin, wherein lives his mother's protection, stopped the AK. Normally the AK would just go into the victim, leaving no mark, but the force of the AK being suddenly stopped by the protection, caused Harry's skin to "explode" or break open, leaving him with a lightning-bolt shaped cut that eventually becomes the famous scar. (This has to be merely guess work since this is the first time that this has ever happened and the exact mechanics of how it happened we don't know.)

Following Choices’ idea we could figure that Harry’s skin was a protection, a ‘filter’ as Haymoni says, and stopped the AK. But the impact caused a break in the skin: a wound (then a scar). Thus the scar is like a door to Harry (brain ? mind ?). The fraction of Voldemort’s powers that was ‘accompanying’ the AK could have entered Harry’s brain by the wound. (I imagine a small piece of black material, as the black point in the yang half of the Yin Yang symbol).

Now this door still exists. It seems that Voldemort has the power to enter Harry’s (mind? brain ?)by this door, involuntary at first, then voluntary in Book 5 (causing Harry dreams-visions of the MoM and of Sirius being tortured).

Three last remarks : - When Voldemort enters by the ‘door/scar’, Harry fells pain in his scar, and sometimes has a splitting feeling. ñ When Voldemort was feeling emotions, he seemed to enter by the ‘door/scar’ unwillingly. ñ Voldemort happened to be conscious at some point of the existence of this ‘door/scar.’

T Vrana - Mar 20, 2007 12:59 pm (#570 of 1297)

The fraction of Voldemort’s powers that was ‘accompanying’ the AK could have entered Harry’s brain by the wound.

Why would LV's powers travel with an AK? I'm not sure I follow this idea. And, if this is the case, why hasn't Jo explained it? There is nothing revealing about this scenario. If this is the case will she reveal it in DH or leave us guessing? If she tells us this it seems unimportant and anti-climactic at this point.

It still seems to me that this transfer of powers and the fact that it hasn't been explained is revealing in itself. It must be important, and there must be a reason she has waited to tell us. If it is just a matter of Lily's protection acting as a filter, this could have been revealed when we learned of Lily's protection in the first place.

JMHO

Phoenix - Mar 20, 2007 1:28 pm (#571 of 1297)

But the impact caused a break in the skin: a wound (then a scar). Thus the scar is like a door to Harry (brain ? mind ?). The fraction of Voldemort’s powers that was ‘accompanying’ the AK could have entered Harry’s brain by the wound. Luna Logic

I just wanted to point out I used a similar argument a little while back to promote the idea of the Horcrux. We are fairly certain Voldemort had the intention to make a Horcrux with Harry's death. We know his soul was freshly ripped from his murder of James and Lily, couple that with his intention, the backfired curse, and the Horcrux theory is totally plausible. And I do think it better explains not only the powers, but all the strange events with Harry's scar.

It still seems to me that this transfer of powers and the fact that it hasn't been explained is revealing in itself. It must be important, and there must be a reason she has waited to tell us. If it is just a matter of Lily's protection acting as a filter, this could have been revealed when we learned of Lily's protection in the first place. T Vrana

And I think this is an excellent point.

T Vrana - Mar 20, 2007 1:46 pm (#572 of 1297)

Phoenix-

Good point. His soul was freshly ripped by the two murders, and his 'main soul' was blasted out of his body. Even if he never recited a 'Horcrux spell', I doubt his fragile soul, freshly ripped, could survive the rebounding AK intact.

I still contend that the torn bits could have been attracted to Harry because, deep down, LV is jealous of what Harry has, a loving mother and father willing to die for him. So, while LV wants to destroy Harry, because he is a threat, part of him also wants to be Harry, a powerful wizard (LV in his arrogance would believe only a truly powerful wizard could be a threat. Truth be told, Harry is not a great and powerful wizard, he is a pretty average wizard who is brave and can love and be loved, has had a good bit of help and has worked hard at the things he needs to survive), with powerful wizard parents (thrice defied LV) who love him and would be willing to die for him.

PatPat - Mar 20, 2007 2:50 pm (#573 of 1297)

Truth be told, Harry is not a great and powerful wizard, he is a pretty average wizard who is brave and can love and be loved, has had a good bit of help and has worked hard at the things he needs to survive), with powerful wizard parents (thrice defied LV) who love him and would be willing to die for him. (T Vrana)

First off, I disagree with this statement. Yes, Harry has had a good deal of help up to this point. BUT he is also a child still. I don't believe that his powers are fully developed yet. We know that he is excellent at Defense Against the Dark Arts and, as much of a wizard's power comes from emotion, Harry's ability to love will translate to him becoming more and more powerful. I do not believe a wizard is born with a certain amount of powers and that's it. I believe they can be developed and strengthened.

Secondly, as to the question of why Harry's scar hurts when he is near Voldemort, I don't believe this is evidence that he is a Horcrux (or his scar is). I believe that Harry feels pain when Voldemort is near or when he is feeling strong emotion because he and Voldemort are complete opposites. Voldemort is evil and has split his soul in pieces by committing murder after murder. Harry is full of love and has a pure unblemished soul. Much as Voldemort feels pain when he possesses Harry in OotP, Harry feels pain when he is connected to Voldemort.

T Vrana - Mar 20, 2007 3:20 pm (#574 of 1297)

PatPat-

I agree his powers are not fully developed, and that he still has potential and will grow as a wizard, of course, he is still underage. But Harry's strength is not that he is a great and powerful wizard. DD did things with a wand that amazed his OWLs examiner, at the same age. Harry is impressive, able to produce a patronus, for example, but I don't think we are supposed to see him as a truly great and gifted wizard. It is his ability to love that makes him great (as DD mentions a few times). And, he had private instruction for the patronus. Hermione also managed a Patronus rather quickly. Is she a great and powerful witch? Well, she's very intelligent, but will she ever be in the same league as DD? Will Harry?

Yes, Harry is excellent at DADA, for a wizard his age. But is he extraordinary? He is able to teach most of what he knows to fellow students. Are they also extraordinary?

It's not an insult. Jo's message of love being the greatest power wouldn't be nearly as strong if Harry turns out to be an amazingly powerful wizard. Not that he can't do amazing things, but it will be because he is loving, loved and brave, not because he is in the same league as DD or LV. IMO
Edited TO ADD

I do not believe a wizard is born with a certain amount of powers and that's it. I believe they can be developed and strengthened.

I agree. But in 'our world', there are geniuses and great athletes who are gifted. I think the same is true in Harry's world of magic, some are born gifted, like DD.

Solitaire - Mar 21, 2007 6:15 am (#575 of 1297)

I've skipped about 300 or more posts, because something just occurred to me, after reading about Riddle and the Diary Horcrux. Do you suppose that the part of Riddle encased in the other Horcruxes will come out and assume the human form of Riddle, as happened with the Diary? If so, could that be how Dumbledore was injured? I realize the form of Riddle in the Chamber was not solid ... but there was enough of the "essence" of Riddle to hold a wand, call forth the Basilisk, etc.

My apologies if this has been addressed. I was just wondering ...

Solitaire

Mrs Brisbee - Mar 21, 2007 6:27 am (#576 of 1297)

I've skipped about 300 or more posts, because something just occurred to me, after reading about Riddle and the Diary Horcrux. Do you suppose that the part of Riddle encased in the other Horcruxes will come out and assume the human form of Riddle, as happened with the Diary? If so, could that be how Dumbledore was injured? I realize the form of Riddle in the Chamber was not solid ... but there was enough of the "essence" of Riddle to hold a wand, call forth the Basilisk, etc.-- Solitaire

Now there is an interesting thought. Voldemort seems to have made the Diary so it could form another body. More important for Solitaire's idea, the piece of soul was given memory and abilities that it could use through the diary. We also know that the Founders' Objects like Hufflepuff's Cup and Slytherin's locket likely have their own inherent powers. Could the soulbits in those Horcruxes use those powers? Makes me wonder too what exactly happened to R.A.B., who made off with the real Horcrux locket with the intent to destroy it. Could the locket itself via Voldy's soulbit have done something to R.A.B. to prevent its own destruction?

HungarianHorntail11 - Mar 21, 2007 7:39 am (#577 of 1297)

Solitaire and Mrs. Brisbee, I am not sure whether the soul bit within the Horcrux gets destroyed or absorbed (as in DD's hand). It would be key to knowing how Harry would handle his situation if he is indeed a Horcrux. They seem to have an affinity to whole souls, judging by Ginny's situation and considering Harry as a Horcrux.

I believe that Harry feels pain when Voldemort is near or when he is feeling strong emotion because he and Voldemort are complete opposites. Voldemort is evil and has split his soul in pieces by committing murder after murder. Harry is full of love and has a pure unblemished soul. Much as Voldemort feels pain when he possesses Harry in OotP, Harry feels pain when he is connected to Voldemort. PatPat

Actually, I think those are good points in favor of Harry being a Horcrux. Ron is full of love, as is Hermione and countless others but no one is affected as Harry is.

Choices,

I am seeing this as two separate things and it seems as though the Prophecy is what is being used as a guideline so I will go by that. The one with the power to vanquish. . . the dark lord will mark him as his own .

Power and soul bit. The power is love. It always has been. It melted Harry's knife and protected Harry at 4PD. Big V could touch him but we don't know if he could AK him without any repercussions to himself now that he carries Harry's blood.

The Dark Lord will mark him as his own. . .soul bit. How else did he mark him as his own? Inadvertently but marked nevertheless. The prophecy simply states he'd be marked, whether by choice or default, it's been done - we all agree on that.

With a piece of himself in Harry, he "claims" him. It has an affinity to Harry as much as it is repelled by him. He experiences intense pain yet seems to "tap" into it when he needs to (Parseltongue).

As far as "trying" to find things that fit, as I read HBP, it pretty much screamed out at me, continuing the suspicion that began, I believe, in OotP. That hospital incident just stuck in my mind and never loosed its grip. I didn't go looking for it, it just kept popping up, just as the pieces that fall together all to easily to make this work. Are there hitches? Yes there are but they are weak just as anything we don't have in cannon is. Take a look at the Irma Pince's anagram which is a good example. Until we see it in print, we can neither credit nor discount it for sure. But it sure makes for interesting fodder, doesn't it?

T Vrana - Mar 21, 2007 8:56 am (#578 of 1297)

Do you suppose that the part of Riddle encased in the other Horcruxes will come out and assume the human form of Riddle, as happened with the Diary? If so, could that be how Dumbledore was injured? I realize the form of Riddle in the Chamber was not solid ... but there was enough of the "essence" of Riddle to hold a wand, call forth the Basilisk, etc.

I assume not. Diary Riddle was only able to assume a form because Ginny willingly 'poured her soul' into the diary, into Riddle. I think the Dairy was designed differently, designed to open the Chamber. In order for the other Horcruxes to do the same, wouldn't the finder have to willingly forfeit some of their soul? As Ginny unknowingly did? It seems to me it took time for Riddle to get to the point of 'solid', and by then little was left of Ginny.

I think DD would have warned Harry if LV was going to pop out and defend his Horcruxes.

Just my opinion, though, could be wrong...

Choices - Mar 21, 2007 9:39 am (#579 of 1297)

I agree, T Vrana. Tom emerged from the diary as a memory. The diary performed two separate functions - memory and Horcrux. Memory Tom was able to come out and his function was to get a student (in this case Ginny) to obey him and open the COS. I think the Horcrux part was just along for the ride, and surely Voldemort knew that it was at risk of being destroyed in the process of reopening the COS. This is what made Dumbledore suspect that there were, or were going to be, more Horcruxes.

HH11, I see Harry as the one with the power and the one marked by Voldemort, but, although I see Harry with the power of love, I also see him with the powers that Voldemort gave him - magical powers that both strengthen and increase his own natural powers of magic. Voldemort is big into power - "there is no good or evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it." I think what would make him very angry is to have some of his power go into Harry - to think that he has somehow strengthened his enemy. He did mark Harry as his own, his own adversary - he gave him a scar and he gave him power. By acknowledging the prophecy, he gave Harry power over him. Harry, a boy who is very much like himself, but at the same time, his opposite. Voldemort has done things that make it a certainty that Harry is going to come after him and try to kill him. Harry is marked by Voldemort as his own.....own worst enemy.

Soul Search - Mar 21, 2007 10:50 am (#580 of 1297)

I have been assuming that the protections on the ring Horcrux are what damaged Dumbledore's hand. The idea that the soul-bit that was Horcruxed to the ring, itself, is what damaged Dumbledore's hand is a very interesting thought.

Choices - Mar 21, 2007 11:14 am (#581 of 1297)

I agree, Soul Search. It could well have been one of the protections put on the ring Horcrux. To destroy it may have required that the finder put the ring on his finger and take the soul bit into his body. Then, in order to destroy the soul bit, Dumbledore had to destroy his own hand. The ring could have done the damage to his hand or Dumbledore may have had to do it himself - I think either way is definitely a possibility.

Magic Words - Mar 21, 2007 12:53 pm (#582 of 1297)

Dumbledore's explanation of his hand was that he wasn't quick enough, his reflexes weren't what they used to be, etc. It sounds like he didn't have to destroy his hand so much as something attacked him and he wasn't 100% able to fend it off. No telling just yet whether it was the Horcrux itself or just a curse.

I'm trying to remember what tipped Dumbledore off that the diary was a Horcrux. "A mere memory beginning to act for itself?" I think the Horcrux must have played a part in Riddle's return, although the others needn't follow the same pattern. Maybe both a soul and a 'memory' aspect are required for them to take form.

Soul Search - Mar 21, 2007 3:48 pm (#583 of 1297)

Choices,

He did mark Harry as his own, his own adversary - he gave him a scar and he gave him power.

I have always questioned that Harry's scar was the "mark him as his equal" part of the prophecy. How does Harry's scar mark him as Voldemort's equal? At best, it shows that Lily was Voldemort's equal.

But, what if the scar is a Horcrux, and the soul-bit marks Harry as Voldemort's equal?

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Thinking about the Horcrux soul-bits I reviewed some previous posts by Mrs Brisbee, T Vrana, and HungarianHorntail11 and the following came to mind.

The diary was a memory and a Horcrux object. The Horcrux soul-bit was sentient; it reacted with the diary/memory directing Ginny to open the Chamber. Tom Riddle had given the soul-bit a directive to open the Chamber again so all his work wouldn't go to waste. But, the soul-bit went beyond its original directive, it changed its target to Harry. That is a lot of sentience for a mere soul-bit.

Why would the other soul-bits be any different. That is, each is sentient and has been given a directive to attack anyone who freed them.

Hepzibah Smith tells us that the cup and locket have special powers. Tom Riddle sought founder's objects for his Horcruxes. Dumbledore suggests that Tom Riddle wanted "famous" objects, but what if Tom Riddle sought these objects because of their special powers. Powers that could be used to protect the Horcrux or attack anyone who released the soul-bit from the Horcrux.

The ring is a example. Dumbledore slowed with age? Absolutely not. The soul-bit used extensive powers in the ring to attack him.

Now Harry has to face the founders' powers placed in the cup, locket, and other Horcrux. Talk about "Deathly Hallows."

And, a Voldemort soul-bit will be controlling Nagini.

Harry doesn't have a chance. With sentient soul-bits, he is has to defeat Voldemort at least five more times.

Choices - Mar 21, 2007 5:35 pm (#584 of 1297)

Soul Search, I think the scar is simply an outward, visible sign that Voldemort has marked Harry as his equal. His powers that were transferred are within Harry and they are the true mark that Harry is his equal. The scar is also a souvenir of the AK that failed to kill Harry due to the power of his Mother's love.

I have to disagree that the soul bits are sentient. I do not think that they are "aware" or have any powers - they are simply anchors to keep Voldemort's main soul bit from leaving this world should his body be killed again. I think the protections do not come from the soul bit, but are spells/charms/enchantments/curses placed upon the object that contains the soul bit. The protections prevent anyone from opening the object and destroying the soul bit. I do not think there is any way in which the soul bits can protect themselves. I do not see them as vicious little creatures that come flying out when the Horcrux is opened to attack the unwary opener.

T Vrana - Mar 21, 2007 7:13 pm (#585 of 1297)

Choices- I agree. I think DD would have warned Harry if this were the case. I think DD indicated the curse on the ring protecting it was the powerful curse.

Solitaire - Jul 29, 2007 7:34 pm (#586 of 1297)

How does Harry's scar mark him as Voldemort's equal?

I don't think it is the scar that marks Harry as Voldemort's equal. I believe that Voldemort figuratively "marked" Harry as his equal when he determined that it was Harry, rather than Neville, who had the power to vanquish him ... who posed the threat and had to be eliminated. In attempting to AK Harry, Voldemort physically "marked" him, and that scar is the outward evidence that he has been marked.

But he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ..."

Does this mean that he did not yet have it at the time Voldemort marked him? If not, does he have it now? Is that power love, or is it something different ... something we "know not" at this time?

Solitaire

frogface - Mar 22, 2007 4:50 am (#587 of 1297)

Well the Prophecy was made before Harry was born. So at that point he had no power. But he did have the power of love (not the song) by the time Voldy popped around to Godric's Hollow.

Phoenix - Mar 22, 2007 8:41 am (#588 of 1297)

I have to disagree that the soul bits are sentient. I do not think that they are "aware" or have any powers - they are simply anchors to keep Voldemort's main soul bit from leaving this world should his body be killed again. Choices

I don't know about that. I don't think charms and enchantments could account for the way Diary Riddle behaved. It was able to plan, plot, make decisions, set goals for itself. I think the charms and enchantments provided the soulbit with means to function, but it was the soulbit of Voldemort that became sentient. It was like a hologram of himself - it had his motives and goals.

I don't necessarily think that all the other Horcruxes would be enchanted so, but it's possible that 1 or 2 may be - especially now that the present Voldemort knows the diary has been destroyed. We do know that the diary soulbit was meant to open the CoS, but we don't know the full extent of what Voldemort intended it to do.

Choices - Mar 22, 2007 11:42 am (#589 of 1297)

I don't think it was the soul bit that was supposed to open the COS. Within the diary was Memory Tom and a soul bit. It was the memory of Tom Riddle that got Ginny to do the job of opening the COS. That was what Voldemort intended when he gave the diary to Lucius Malfoy. The diary was to be given into the hands of a Hogwarts student who would work for Memory Tom, be possessed by him, and open the COS to set the Basilisk loose in the school to rid it of Mudbloods. I think the soul bit was in the diary, but I do not think it participated in the events that transpired with opening the COS by Ginny. The soul bit, along with Memory Tom, was destroyed when Harry stabbed the diary with the fang of the Basilisk.

PatPat - Mar 22, 2007 4:31 pm (#590 of 1297)

Don't forget that the diary was different from all of the other Horcruxes. Whether it was the memory Tom, as Choices puts it, or the Horcruxes that were behaving the way that we saw, the reason was Ginny. The diary was feeding off of Ginny. As her strength weakened, the Memory in the diary grew stronger. Without her, I do not believe that it would have been able to behave in the way that we saw.

Phoenix - Mar 22, 2007 7:32 pm (#591 of 1297)

I've re-read the part in the chapter in HBP on the diary Horcrux a few times, and I keep coming to the same conclusion. I thought I'd post the section - perhaps maybe I'm missing something:

(Dumbledore) "Well, although I did not see the Riddle who came out of the diary, what you described to me was a phenomenon I had never witnessed. A mere memory starting to act and think for itself? A mere memory, sapping the life out of the girl into whose hands it had fallen? No, something much more sinister had lived inside that book...a fragment of soul, I was almost sure of it"...

"...But there could be no doubt that Riddle really wanted that diary read, wanted the piece of his soul to inhabit or possess somebody else, so that Slytherin's monster would be unleashed again."

Based on this, it just follows for me that the memory and the Horcrux combined, and that was the Tom Riddle that emerged from the diary. As Ginny was dying, his form was becoming more distinct. I just can't see it any other way.

Luna Logic - Mar 23, 2007 12:28 am (#592 of 1297)

Phoenix quoting HBP : "A mere memory, sapping the life out of the girl into whose hands it had fallen? No, something much more sinister had lived inside that book...a fragment of soul, I was almost sure of it"...

"...But there could be no doubt that Riddle really wanted that diary read, wanted the piece of his soul to inhabit or possess somebody else (...)"

In my mind, the living memory in the diary was one sort of magic, and the Horcrux in the diary another... but the quote is there ! Could Dumbledore be wrong this time?

The element of "feeding" on another body is quite convincing because how an object, even a magical one, could do that? Dumbledore says there is no possibility to do that by magic... only a bit of soul can possess another living body?

(Oh no, not going to change my mind again about Horcruxes? sight...)

Laura W - Mar 23, 2007 12:46 am (#593 of 1297)

"In my mind, the living memory in the diary was one sort of magic, and the Horcrux in the diary another" (Luna Logic)

I agree with you completely on this. And I do not see what Dumbledore said disproves it.

He explained regarding the diary, "Well, it works as a Horcrux is supposed to work - in other words, the fragment of soul concealed inside it was kept safe and had undoubtedly played its part in preventing the death of its owner." Then DD says that Riddle also wanted the diary to be read, so that the piece of his soul could inhabit the reader and get the chamber opened.

In other words, as I read it, what DD is saying is that Tom had *two* purposes for the diary. And that Riddle was being kind of stupid in doing that.

(DD): "But don't you see, Harry, that if he intended the diary to be passed to, or planted on, some future Hogwarts student, he was being remarkably blasé about that precious fragment of his soul concealed within it. The point of a Horcrux is, as Slughorn explained, to keep part of the self hidden and safe, not to fling it into somebody else's path and run the risk that they might destroy it - ..." (HBP, p.468, Raincoast). Dumbledore then goes on to opine that he attributes Tom's "carelessness," regarding the diary (I.e. - regarding giving the diary two distinctly different purposes) to the fact that he had planned to make more Horcruxes to fall back on.

Laura

HungarianHorntail11 - Mar 23, 2007 6:05 am (#594 of 1297)

Well, that convinces me. Horcruxes are destroyed, rather than absorbed (as I have questioned with DD's hand). Judging by that comment, it seems as they are quite fragile and it is the protection placed upon them which makes them dangerous to destroy.

So, what kind of protections are on Harry? We know 4PD expires soon. . . (See, Choices, I wasn't trying at all! )

Thank you to those who provided quotes.

Phoenix - Mar 23, 2007 6:17 am (#595 of 1297)

Laura, I totally agree the diary had two purposes: 1) a Horcrux, 2) to open the CoS. What I'm saying is that it was the soulbit that took possession of Ginny and, I believe, was emerging from the diary. As DD said, a memory couldn't think and act for itself, nor possess another. Harry was able to destroy the diary before it could completely emerge. One has to wonder what would've happened if it was able to complete it's transformation.

HungarianHorntail11 - Mar 23, 2007 6:58 am (#596 of 1297)

Phoenix, JKR answered that and said he would have come back stronger than ever. (Remember, he would have Ginny's whole soul vs. a "scattered" one.)

Laura W - Mar 23, 2007 8:13 am (#597 of 1297)

I see what you're saying now, Phoenix.

So, it's like the 16-year-old Tom Riddle had always planned to permanently lose that part of his soul? He needed to take another student's soul, the one who would write in the diary - as it turned out, Ginny Weasley's -, in order to materialize again as Memory Tom. Then, when he had enough strength to do so, Memory Tom started pouring the soul bit that was in the diary into the student in order to get her to do his will. The Basilisk would be released and all the so-called undesirable students would be eliminated. In the process, that piece of Tom's soul would be gone - having been transferred to the other Hogwarts student. But it would be worth it to him.

Is this what you're saying? (Or am I getting really confused?)

Put that way, it sounds like Tom had planned to sacrifice that one piece of his soul from the beginning. Which begs the question of why LV was so furious with Lucius Malfoy when he did exactly what Tom had planned for the diary.

Ok, I officially don't know anymore. I have been agreeing with what Choices wrote in 589, but now I'm not sure. I do not, however, believe that a soul bit can think or act on its own. And I feel strongly about that! (For one thing, DD says himself that it wasn't the soul bit in the ring that attacked him, but the numerous powerful enchantments that were put on the ring/Horcrux which were responsible.)

I am reminded, upon reading this whole discussion, about yet another Dumbledore quote from HBP. "The diary had been a Horcrux. But this raised as many questions as it answered." Uh-huh.

Laura

Magic Words - Mar 23, 2007 8:48 am (#598 of 1297)

In the process, that piece of Tom's soul would be gone - having been transferred to the other Hogwarts student. ~Laura

I don't think this was exactly how it worked. Tom says he "poured his soul" into Ginny, but in the end it was Ginny who was dying and Tom who was using her strength. I don't think his soul bit would have been absorbed into Ginny's. The two may have melded, but his would have been stronger, if only by virtue of knowing what was going on and being able to fight off her influence on him, while Ginny wouldn't know how to fight him.

Nathan Zimmermann - Mar 23, 2007 9:05 am (#599 of 1297)

Laura, I think that Phoenix is say that while Voldemort intended the diary serve as a Horcrux.

In the event that some unforeseen contingency occurred that resulted in the destruction of his body, that the diary and other Horcruxes were enchanted in such a way that permitted the soul bit contained within them to possess the poor unfortunate soul that activated the Horcrux.

I tend to think that Voldemort would have come back stronger had the possession of Ginny succeeded for three reasons:

Voldemort would be in possession of a new younger body;

Voldemort would have been able to have utilized his considerable powers;

Voldemort would have been in control of Ginny's considerable powers in addition to having access to his own magical abilities.

Soul Search - Mar 23, 2007 11:15 am (#600 of 1297)

Recent posts bring up a problem we have discussed before, but we may now have a reasonable solution.

How does a Horcrux allow the caster to achieve immortality? True, one's soul can't "crossover," but having only a soul in spirit form isn't really that much. Certainly not enough to be called "immortality." Voldemort's spirit could occupy a wizard, but with difficulties; Quirrell, for example, had to drink unicorn blood on some regular basis. It was only by merest chance that Wormtail found Voldemort's spirit, or the other way around, and was able to help him get his body back.

Maybe CoS and Diary Tom show us there is more to it. The diary soul-bit was sentient and, upon learning from Ginny that Voldemort was dead, began to use her to create a corporal Tom that, according to JKR, could then seek out the spirit Voldemort and meld with it.

This is our only example, so it must be canon, by default.

Horcrux soul-bits are sentient, are a copy of the original, can affect another wizard, can use that other wizard to become corporal, and can meld back with the original soul when in spirit form.

So, with six Horcruxes there are six sentient soul-bits looking for the opportunity to become corporal and meld with the original soul. A better opportunity for "immortality."

Now, lets move a little further out on our limb, to where the branch may start to dip down a little.

Harry is a Horcrux and has one of those sentient soul-bits hanging around. But, Harry also has the "love" Dumbledore mentioned, so the soul-bit has not been able to take him over. Dumbledore even wonders that Harry has not succumbed to Voldemort and the dark arts. But the soul-bit does try, and Harry feels pain of it in his scar. It tries to communicate with the Voldemort soul, which also causes Harry pain.

But it also tries to protect Harry, and itself. When Diary Tom was going to kill Harry, and the soul-bit as well, the soul-bit in Harry had him use the basilisk fang to save him, and itself. What, one part of Voldemort wouldn't destroy another to save itself? Of course it would; both soul-bits are self-serving and evil!

Harry has a Voldemort soul-bit that is sentient and wants to protect itself. It would rather take over Harry and meld with Voldemort, but it can't, so it protects Harry and itself, biding its time.

Now let's revisit that last part of the prophecy:

... and the Dark Lord will mark him as equal,

but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ...

and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives.

The "power" isn't Lily's sacrifice, nor Dumbledore's protections, nor anything Harry is going to learn. It isn't even "love," directly. It is Voldemort's sentient soul-bit that will help Harry to save itself. Voldemort doesn't know that he is, in essence, fighting himself!

And this confusion of souls and soul-bits fits with that last line, as well.

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TheSaint - Mar 23, 2007 2:37 pm (#601 of 1297)

I agree the soul bit in Harry is sentient. It has not been activated, as no one has tried to 'open' Harry. I do think the soul bit is aware though. Unlike the other bits, excluding Nagini, it is not encased in an inanimate object, but in a living thing that can think for itself.

Harry did think Tom Riddle sounded like a friend he had when he was young. He did have murderous desires that did not seem to be his own, and there was that voice , maybe in his own head, calling his name at the end of book one.

I also think Voldemort is aware ... Enemies of the Heir, beware! Also, the choice of words in GOF graveyard, 'Kill the Spare.' The Heir and the Spare.

Interesting that Riddle would call him the Heir and we all assume Harry will be Dumbledore's heir. Good and Evil battle for one soul to become their heir.

Soul Search - Mar 23, 2007 2:59 pm (#602 of 1297)

TheSaint,

Good and Evil battle for one soul to become their heir.

An interesting view that would change how we interpret a lot of what has gone on.

Solitaire - Mar 23, 2007 7:17 pm (#603 of 1297)

It tries to communicate with the Voldemort soul, which also causes Harry pain.

Is this canon? I thought it was Voldemort's incursions into Harry's mind that caused the pain.

The soul-bit in Harry had him use the basilisk fang to save him, and itself.

Do we know this for certain? Fawkes dropped the diary into his lap after he'd healed Harry's wound and Harry was clear-headed again. Harry knew by this time how important the Diary was to Riddle. Riddle had his wand and was pointing it at him, so I think Harry was prepared to die. I believe he just meant to destroy the Diary, so that it couldn't hurt anyone else. Since the only thing at hand that resembled a weapon or tool was the poisonous Basilisk fang--Riddle had his wand and the sword was still stuck in the Basilisk--he grabbed that and stabbed the poisonous Diary with it ... a fitting end to Voldemort's poisonous little plot.

Good and Evil battle for one soul to become their heir.

I hope it isn't that simple. Or perhaps I should say that I hope there is more to it than that.

Solitaire

Phoenix - Mar 23, 2007 9:15 pm (#604 of 1297)

HH11 - Thanks! I didn't know that.

I do not, however, believe that a soul bit can think or act on its own. And I feel strongly about that! Laura W.

That was basically what Dumbledore said about the memory:

(Dumbledore) "Well, although I did not see the Riddle who came out of the diary, what you described to me was a phenomenon I had never witnessed. A mere memory starting to act and think for itself? A mere memory, sapping the life out of the girl into whose hands it had fallen? No, something much more sinister had lived inside that book...a fragment of soul, I was almost sure of it"...

Dumbledore clearly has experience with memories! I believe he was implying that it was the soulbit that was responsible. But I believe it was the charmed diary and the memory that gave it the means to act. I think the soulbit was using the diary to control Ginny and steal her 'life-force', so to speak. A soulbit encased in a ring has no means to initiate anything and would be dependent on enchantments and other protections. Does this make sense? And we really were not given many particulars in how Dumbledore destroyed the ring Horcrux, so I have to agree with your last statement!

Magic Words - Thanks for clarifying for me - that is what I meant.

Nathan, I agree - good point!

Soul Search and The Saint - Wow!! If your theory doesn't play out in the last book, it would make great fanfic!!

Is this canon? I thought it was Voldemort's incursions into Harry's mind that caused the pain. Solitaire

That is Dumbledore's best theory, and it may well be, but no one knows for certain as no one ever survived an AK curse. Before Harry, DD has never even seen it before, so I think it's open for speculation.

Luna Logic - Mar 23, 2007 11:50 pm (#605 of 1297)

I thought it was Voldemort's incursions into Harry's mind that caused the pain. Solitaire

Yes, involuntary incursions at first (Voldemort's emotions), then voluntary incursions (book 5).

That is also why I have proposed in my #569 post -(following Choices #498 I think Harry's skin, wherein lives his mother's protection, stopped the AK...)

- that the scar is a sort of door, by which a little bit of Voldemort's power were transferred to Harry (in Harry's blood, maybe?).

The scar would be linked on one side to Harry's mind, and on the other side, to Voldemort's mind.

As Voldemort "created" this door (even without intention), perhaps he is the one who can open it? But could Harry learn to open it, and what would be the effect, I wonder.

Mrs Brisbee - Mar 24, 2007 6:45 am (#606 of 1297)

Dumbledore clearly has experience with memories! I believe he was implying that it was the soulbit that was responsible. But I believe it was the charmed diary and the memory that gave it the means to act. I think the soulbit was using the diary to control Ginny and steal her 'life-force', so to speak. A soulbit encased in a ring has no means to initiate anything and would be dependent on enchantments and other protections.-- Phoenix

I have to agree that it was a combination of soulbit and memory that was what made the diary dangerous. The memory seems to have provided a personality and program to follow. The soulbit seems to have brought particular powers-- Parseltongue and Possession-- to the table, as well as the creative ability to adapt.

But I don't know that the other Horcruxes won't be as dangerous. Maybe that's the twist to the Horcrux hunt that Rowling will give us: Each will have a magical program to follow and a soulbit to power it.

I'm disturbed by the description of Dumbledore's injured hand. Blackened, burned. The same words used to describe the Diary Horcrux after it had been destroyed. Add to that Bob Ogden's memory and Morfin's memory, where Dumbledore didn't need Harry to translate the Parseltongue. Maybe he had Morfin provide a translation for both years ago. Or maybe he understood it, just like Harry can, because of a bit of Voldemort gotten from the ring. In the cave, Dumbledore uses his blackened hand to test for Voldemort's magic; the injured hand is somehow attuned to at. And the locket Horcrux was protected by a force field. Could someone with a Dark Mark just reach through? But others had to drink a potion-- full of memories? Voldemort's memories? Then when they get the Locket, another potent soulbit/memory combo could spring into effect? I feel a disturbing theory forming in my mind....

Soul Search - Mar 24, 2007 7:57 am (#607 of 1297)

Mrs Brisbee,

I feel a disturbing theory forming in my mind....

Me too. That "sentient soul-bit" concept started as an off-the-wall idea, but it is starting to fit too well.

We have the ring and cave examples to show us that finding and destroying Voldemort's Horcruxes is going to take serious magic. Even "the greatest wizard who ever lived" wasn't quite up to the task. How is Harry ever going to find and destroy four more Horcruxes? There isn't even anyone left skilled enough to help him.

We have Vapormort's example to show that, in the wizarding world, a "soul" contains all the knowledge, memories, and powers possessed by the original wizard. The diary example shows that a soul-bit is a good copy of the original and can be sentient. The soul-bit in Harry was created after Voldemort made all the Horcruxes, except Nagini, so it knows where they are, what protections are on them, and how they might be destroyed.

Harry needs to learn how to communicate with the soul-bit in him. How else can he destroy the remaining Horcruxes?

----------------------------------------------------------------

As an aside, I am wondering if some of those strange, magical, actions we think Harry as performed are not the soul-bit kicking in?

Solitaire - Mar 24, 2007 10:15 am (#608 of 1297)

Harry is still a wizard with his own magical powers and skills.

Choices - Mar 24, 2007 11:27 am (#609 of 1297)

I think we need to be very careful about jumping to the conclusion that a soul bit is sentient. We have no evidence that Memory Tom did what he did as a result of the soul bit. It could very well have been the "life force" that he was draining from Ginny that made what he did possible. We know that the diary Horcrux is very different from the other Horcruxes and I think we must be careful not to expect the others to act as the diary did. If Dumbledore thought the other soul bits/Horcruxes had a mind of their own, I think he would have suggested this to Harry. It would definitely be important for him to know.

xray - Mar 24, 2007 12:42 pm (#610 of 1297)

We have Vapormort's example to show that, in the wizarding world, a "soul" contains all the knowledge, memories, and powers possessed by the original wizard. The diary example shows that a soul-bit is a good copy of the original and can be sentient. - Soul Search

Actually I think you're merging two separate things into one. The memory was different from the soul bit. Perhaps combined, it was able to start thinking for itself. But it was definitely a memory plus a soul bit, more than likely a memory first, Horcrux second.

It's very interesting to think about. If Riddle's memory became fully alive, would it have a soul? Would the soul bit have remained in the diary or jumped to the new Riddle?

HungarianHorntail11 - Mar 24, 2007 12:54 pm (#611 of 1297)

Soul Search, it sounds like a great idea. Lots of food for thought, esp. the part where Big V's soul bit works against him.

I have given it a bit of thought and am having trouble getting past a few obstacles. My questions arise in that I don't get the feeling that the soul bit has an awareness in such a way. An affinity to gravitate toward a whole soul bit (sort of like the opposite pole attraction of magnets), yes, but not clear-cut thinking, premeditating, as to protect itself. Phoenix explained it pretty clearly and I have to go with that.

The other thing that I can't get past is the idea of the soul bit meshing (for lack of a better term) with Harry - goes against what we know regarding soul bits - they must be destroyed and then Harry must go after Big V.

Choices, that is a good point regarding the capabilities of a soul bit. I think they are limited to passivity.

However: Wouldn't it be convenient for Harry to have the last soul bit in him which knows the whereabouts of the others? Soul Search

if it is the soul bit and not the memory from the diary that contained the information up to his 16 years, it would be interesting that Harry has all of the information to lead him to the Horcruxes right in his head the whole time. At this point, I just don't think it is the case.

Soul Search - Mar 24, 2007 2:48 pm (#612 of 1297)

I wonder about Dumbledore, too. He did tell Harry about the diary Horcrux thinking on its own. He didn't have that much practical experience with Horcruxes, since they weren't common in the wizarding world, but after the ring Horcrux he should have figured out that the soul-bit he encountered was sentient. He had plenty of time to tell Harry. On the other hand, he did repeatedly promise to tell Harry about the ring, but never got around to it.

I also wonder that Harry heard nothing from his scar during HBP. Even with Voldemort using Occlumency, Harry should have had a twinge, or something, from his resident soul-bit. Even some minor action would be good back-story for when we find out about Harry's Horcrux and helping soul-bit. Otherwise, it might be too much of a surprise for JKR's story style.

On the other hand, Horcruxes were a bit of a surprise in HBP. We did have the fact that Voldemort didn't die, and JKR's NAQ about that, but, at least I, didn't see the idea coming.

PatPat - Mar 24, 2007 3:41 pm (#613 of 1297)

The only canon we really have regarding the behavior of the diary is from Tom Riddle himself.

"So Ginny poured out her soul to me, and her soul happened to be exactly what I wanted . . . I grew stronger and stronger on a diet of her deepest fears, her darkest secrets." (CoS17) (This also brings up a question of what Ginny's dark secrets are but we'll save that for another thread!)

I believe, as I mentioned before, that the diary behaved as though it were sentient because it was feeding off of Ginny. It also contained a memory of Tom Riddle. The combination of the memory, the Horcrux, and Ginny formed an image that was able to obtain a certain level of consciousness. It then took on the behavior of the teenage Tom Riddle since that was the form of the memory that was in the diary. I don't think that we can assume that other Horcruxes will behave the same way. There would have to be, in my opinion, a recreation of the circumstances, the combination of a memory, a Horcrux, and the soul of another witch or wizard.

I, also, have an interesting question, slightly off of this topic. Has anyone speculated as to why Dumbledore was actually WEARING the ring Horcrux when he and Harry went to visit Slughorn? Was it merely to put Slughorn off balance? Or was there some other reason?

me and my shadow 813 - Mar 24, 2007 4:04 pm (#614 of 1297)

Mrs Brisbee, I feel a disturbing theory forming in my mind.... Me too. That "sentient soul-bit" concept started as an off-the-wall idea, but it is starting to fit too well. - Soul Search

Yes, I'll have to agree as well. A while back I posted about how each Horcrux soul fragment might *animate* as did the Diary fragment. This could have been the "thrilling" tale DD mentioned to Harry about destroying the ring Horcrux. I've always been fond of this possibility plot-wise, and have confidence that Harry and friends are up to the challenge. Regarding Ginny, I interpret it as Ginny's fears/emotions/soul were feeding the Tom soul fragment, and eventually Tom could have become a physical being in exchange for Ginny's death.

Choices - Mar 24, 2007 5:35 pm (#615 of 1297)

Soul Search, you state several things in your post as fact and they are not confirmed in canon that I know of.....

1. Dumbledore didn't have very much practical experience with Horcruxes.

2. The soul bit he encountered was sentient.

3. Harry should have had a twinge or something from his resident soul bit.

I don't think any of the above statements can be proved. They are your opinions, not canon, yet you have stated them as facts.

The line that PatPat quotes seems to indicate that it is Ginny's soul that is powering Tom Riddle, not Voldemorts soul bit. I agree with what PatPat says.

BTW PatPat, my guess is that Dumbledore was wearing the ring because he knew that Slughorn would recognize it as having been Tom Riddles (I believe Tom was wearing it in Slughorn's memory), and yes, it might put him off balance and bring back memories (of Horcruxes?) Dumbledore wants that complete memory.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Mar 24, 2007 6:23 pm (#616 of 1297)

I think Dumbledore wore it as a challenge to Slughorn. They were colleagues and old friends but they also had a major falling out over the memory. That makes me wonder what Slughorn will do with the knowledge of the Horcruxes. Only Harry, Ron, Hermione and Slughorn supposedly know about them. Slughorn mentions Regulus. I can't see him helping destroy the cave Horcrux with RAB. LPO

Laura W - Mar 24, 2007 11:09 pm (#617 of 1297)

"The line that PatPat quotes seems to indicate that it is Ginny's soul that is powering Tom Riddle, not Voldemorts soul bit. I agree with what PatPat says." (Choices)

Yep, me too. Which is what I meant when I earlier wrote, "He needed to take another student's soul, the one who would write in the diary - as it turned out, Ginny Weasley's -, in order to materialize again as Memory Tom."

Laura

Laura W - Mar 24, 2007 11:44 pm (#618 of 1297)

Too Late to Edit ---

LPO, I somehow don't see Horace as the courageous type. I actually do kind of like him in a way, but remember, he has had knowledge of Tom asking about the Horcruxes for 54 years - I believe. And he never told anyone about that.

He was not unaware that he did the wrong thing in having that conversation with his 16-year-old student. In chapter 22 of HBP, Slughorn whispers to Harry, "I am not proud ... I am ashamed of what - of what the memory shows ... I think I might have done great damage that day...". (What this brings to mind is the adult Remus Lupin not telling Dumbledore in PoA about the escaped murderer Sirius Black being an Animagus before Black was caught, because Lupin was ashamed of the fact that had allowed his friends to illegally turn into animals from the ages of 15 through 17 in order to keep him company when he transformed. Both Lupin and Slughorn kept their mouths shut when they shouldn't have because they were ashamed of earlier behavior. Not right, but something a lot of human beings can relate to.)

Also, Harry all but tells Horace that Tom Marvolo Riddle is Lord Voldemort. He asks for the memory and when Slughorn says he is afraid to give it to him, Harry says, "You don't want to get rid of the wizard who killed Lily Evans?" and Sluggy says, "Harry, Harry, of course I do, but -". And Potter responds with, "You're scared he'll find out you helped me?" and "You'd cancel out anything you did by giving me the memory."

I see that as Harry telling Slughorn that the boy in the Horcrux memory is the same one who killed Lily Evans, and that Slughorn's telling the boy about the Horcruxes is somehow connected to this. More significantly, Horace doesn't express any surprise at what Harry has said. So maybe he figured that out a long time ago. On p.348 (Raincoast), Dumbledore says, "Professor Slughorn is an extremely able wizard."

Still, I don't see Horace taking any part in Horcrux hunting/destroying, past, present or future. It just doesn't seem part of his nature to me.

Laura

PatPat - Mar 25, 2007 6:38 am (#619 of 1297)

Thanks for the support, Choices and Laura!

As for Slughorn, I agree with you Laura that he does not seem to be the courageous type that would help hunt down Horcruxes or take care of Voldemort. So, again, I ask what was the purpose of Dumbledore wearing the ring Horcrux when they went to see Slughorn? Was it simply to put him off his guard so that they could obtain the memory? If so, it didn't work. Dumbledore was not able to get the real memory. That was left up to Harry. And, I do believe that Slughorn already knew the identity of Voldemort. Otherwise why would he bother hiding that memory at all? I don't think he was simply ashamed of discussing a forbidden subject. He knew that he was partly responsible for Voldemort's Horcruxes and was ashamed that he had done, as Laura points out, "great damage that day." So, clearly he knew, or at least suspected, that Voldemort had made Horcruxes. Perhaps he even suspected that the ring had been a Horcrux.

Choices - Mar 25, 2007 10:00 am (#620 of 1297)

Again, I think the ring and Harry were "bait" that Dumbledore used to lure Slughorn to Hogwarts. We don't yet know why, but Dumbledore has a reason for wanting Slughorn to be at Hogwarts, and I don't think it is only to teach. When talking to Harry about getting the memory, Dumbledore tells Harry he does not want Slughorn to leave Hogwarts. I believe Slughorn is going to play a role in finding and/or destroying the Horcruxes, I just don't know what, or how big, his role will be.

HungarianHorntail11 - Mar 25, 2007 10:27 am (#621 of 1297)

That sounds right.

I took DD's wearing the ring as a signal to Slughorn that the memories he had been retrieving were working for him. In essence, a boost to say, "Yours could be helpful, too." After all, it was that memory that allowed DD to come to a final (crucial) number of Horcruxes.

Solitaire - Mar 25, 2007 10:55 am (#622 of 1297)

We don't yet know why, but Dumbledore has a reason for wanting Slughorn to be at Hogwarts

I thought the reason Dumbledore wanted Slughorn at Hogwarts was to retrieve that memory about Riddle and the Horcruxes ... which we already know.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Mar 25, 2007 12:41 pm (#623 of 1297)

Harry all but tells Horace that Tom Marvolo Riddle is Lord Voldemort Laura W.

I'm pretty sure most of Tom's old teachers knew he morphed into Voldemort. After all he hung around with the same people who became known Death Eaters.

I can't see Slughorn hunting down Horcruxes but I hope he will be there if Harry needs advice or help destroying them. I don't think his job at Hogwarts is finished. LPO

HungarianHorntail11 - Mar 25, 2007 1:14 pm (#624 of 1297)

It seems as though people who are not included in his clubs get miffed. If they are that keen on being brought in, perhaps his role will be to get others to help out where needed, even if that comes down to Slytherins who dislike Harry to help (kind of the way Harry was able to obtain the info. from Sluggy). He seems to have some influence there.

It was the sudden stop that killed him (sob) - Mar 25, 2007 4:26 pm (#625 of 1297)

Who knows maybe Harry can barter something with Slughorn for his help. I'm thinking unicorn blood, or thestral scale maybe even both.

Choices - Mar 25, 2007 5:16 pm (#626 of 1297)

Thestrals have scales? My book describes them as....

"They were completely fleshless, their black coats clinging to their skeletons, of which every bone was visible. Their heads were dragonish, and their pupil-less eyes white and staring. Wings sprouted from each wither----vast, black leathery wings that looked as though they ought to belong to giant bats."

No mention of scales.

Solitaire, I think getting the memory is part of the reason Dumbledore wants Slughorn there, but I think there is more to it than just that.

It was the sudden stop that killed him (sob) - Mar 25, 2007 5:28 pm (#627 of 1297)

Sorry about that loaned my book to my sister, originally wrote hair and knew that wasn't right so changed to scale. I had no way of checking what they looked like, I just knew they were dragon like.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Mar 25, 2007 5:49 pm (#628 of 1297)

HH I agree, the Club is rather exclusive. Slughorn may be the key to uniting the Houses. Dumbledore respected his talents. So he might have more of a role to play.

Harry is kinda stuck for people to turn to about Horcruxes. He can't go to any members of the Order. If the Horcruxes were so difficult for Dumbledore to find and destroy I shudder to think what will happened to the Trio when they encounter them. There is no Snape to save their lives. If one of the Trio dies I wouldn't be surprised if it is from a Horcrux. LPO

MickeyCee3948 - Mar 25, 2007 7:22 pm (#629 of 1297)

Since Slughorn was one of the few people who seemed to know about Horcruxes then besides the memory he has already given Harry, he should be pretty knowledgeable about how to destroy them without losing a hand or worse. His knowledge could play a major part in Harry's quest.

Mickey

Solitaire - Mar 26, 2007 6:20 am (#630 of 1297)

I think one of the trio will probably buy it in the end. I fluctuate as to which one, though. I sometimes think the chess game, where Ron sacrificed himself, may have been a portent of things to come. In a way, Hermione's petrification in CoS was a preview of what happened to her in OotP. She was not killed by Dolohov, because she weakened the power of the curse with her Silencio! ... just as she was not killed by the Basilisk because she weakened the power of its gaze with the mirror. But she was certainly taken out of action.

I still think Fawkes will somehow play into how Harry destroys the remaining Horcruxes ... or perhaps his final battle to the death with Voldemort. Fawkes has come to Harry's aid more than once, and he has healed Harry of a mortal wound (the Basilisk fang). I think Dumbledore's spirit will come to aid Harry through Fawkes. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire

Laura W - Mar 26, 2007 6:34 am (#631 of 1297)

Re your first paragraph, Solitaire, I have long thought it was going to be Ron. (sniff, sniff)

Everybody points to the chess game in PS, and for good reason, but I am currently rereading PoA again and there is that Christmas lunch at Hogwarts scene.

Those who have stayed at the school for the holidays are having their Christmas meal together and, surprisingly, Sybill Trelawney comes into the Great Hall to eat with them. Then she notices that, if she sits down, there will be 13 people at the table. As she says, "Never forget that when thirteen dine together, the first to rise will be the first to die." At the end of the meal, both Ron and Harry are the first to get up from the table (together). Might mean nothing; might mean a lot.

Perhaps Harry's best friend will die from a powerful protection curse put on a Horcrux -- if the protection curse placed on the ring could be strong enough to basically kill the hand of the greatest wizard in the world - albeit one who is over 150 years old -, think of what it could do to an ordinary wizard or witch --, or maybe will die as a result of standing in front of an AK or other seriously dark spell which is aimed at Harry or Hermione. Or ...

Please note I write this not to upset those who love Ronald Weasley. And I hope I am wrong.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

"Solitaire, I think getting the memory is part of the reason Dumbledore wants Slughorn there, but I think there is more to it than just that." (Choices)

I agree. For one thing, Dumbledore may have run out of prospective DADA teachers. Look at the bottom of the barrel he has already scraped up. Lockhart? Please!! And DD couldn't even find anyone in Harry's fifth year, forcing the Headmaster to accept the Ministry's choice of Umbridge. (SHUDDER)

Here we are in the summer of 1996 and Dumbledore has to find someone else. For whatever reason, he is now ready to give the job to Snape, but will need a new Potions master. He remembers a very talented Potions professor from the old days. Horace Slughorn! If he - well, Harry really - can get Sluggy to come back, that will solve two problems for Dumbledore. Slughorn will be right there in the castle all year; his physical presence making it possible - that is, easier - for Harry to get that all-important Horcrux memory. And Hogwarts would have a very competent Potions master to pass on his knowledge to the students.

I also wonder, Dumbledore being so good and all, if he wanted Horace to stay at the castle for Sluggy's own protection. In the Horace Slughorn chapter of HBP, Dumbledore does ask Sluggy if the DEs have been trying to "recruit" him, and does not seem at all surprised that Sluggy has been on the run from them for a year.

Laura

xray - Mar 26, 2007 8:38 am (#632 of 1297)

Laura W, I just wanted to say that Rowling already said that Ron wouldn't die, so no worries.

Re: Slughorn

I wonder if him being at Hogwarts for the 7th year might be part of the reason Harry returns for his 7th year. Besides Dumbledore, Harry knows Slughorn is the only one who knows anything about Horcruxes. That and given the twins attitude about their 7th year, Harry knows he won't have to "study" hard and can use it as a base for his operations

PatPat - Mar 26, 2007 8:40 am (#633 of 1297)

Interesting, Laura. But if we take that scene at the dinner table in PoA literally, Dumbledore is the first to die.

I, too, believe that it will be Ron that dies. (I don't want him to, but I think it is overly optimistic to believe that all three of the trio will survive.) I have also long thought that at least one Weasley must go. There are nine of them after all and most are in the Order or are at least junior members. Maybe it will be Percy redeeming himself by saving a family member.

PatPat - Mar 26, 2007 8:40 am (#634 of 1297)

xray, when did JKR say that Ron wouldn't die?

xray - Mar 26, 2007 10:12 am (#635 of 1297)

October, 30, 2000, Time Magazine staff. "Essay: A Conversation with J.K. Rowling; A Good Scare"

It's great to hear feedback from the kids. Mostly they are really worried about Ron. As if I'm going to kill Harry's best friend.

July 13, 2000, "J.K. Rowling Interview," CBCNewsWorld: Hot Type

E: People love Ron, for example. Kids think you're going to knock off Ron because he's the best friend.

JK: Kids do, exactly, because they're sharp and they've seen so many films where the hero's best friend gets it. So they think I'm going to make it personal by killing Ron. But maybe that's a double bluff (Laughs)

E: Now that you know they expect it, do you give it to them?

JK: No, I decided. . . . It's not that I sat down with a list and decided to write, 'You're going, you're going, you're going.' There are reasons for the deaths in each case, in terms of the story. So that's why I'm doing it.

PatPat - Mar 26, 2007 3:18 pm (#636 of 1297)

Thanks, xray.

It was the sudden stop that killed him (sob) - Mar 26, 2007 3:50 pm (#637 of 1297)

Laura W., "In the Horace Slughorn chapter of HBP, Dumbledore does ask Sluggy if the DEs have been trying to "recruit" him, and does not seem at all surprised that Sluggy has been on the run from them for a year."

It seems to me that Slughorn would have to be running because Voldemort knows that Slughorn knows about Voldemorts' Horcruxes. Voldemort would want to get rid of Slughorn as soon as possible. And Slughorn is to ashamed to tell anyone without being intoxicated. (sorry rambled a little bit.)

Ludicrous Patents Office - Mar 26, 2007 4:04 pm (#638 of 1297)

I think Dumbledore's spirit will come to aid Harry through Fawkes. Solitaire

What a wonderful thought. I really hope we haven't seen the last of Fawkes.

I see this book with five major climaxes, four with locating and destroying the Horcruxes and the final show down against Voldemort. I do hope Fawkes turns up somewhere to help. Harry is going to need it. LPO

Laura W - Mar 26, 2007 11:40 pm (#639 of 1297)

"Interesting, Laura. But if we take that scene at the dinner table in PoA literally, Dumbledore is the first to die."

Holy Hippogriffs, PatPat, you're right! I totally missed that! They were all seated at the table, Trelawney came in, Dumbledore stood up, Sybill made her prediction that "the first to rise will be the first to die." She did not say "the first to leave the table." The first to rise, to stand up, was DD. And she was right! He *was* the first of all those present to die.

Good for you!

"It seems to me that Slughorn would have to be running because Voldemort knows that Slughorn knows about Voldemort’s Horcruxes. Voldemort would want to get rid of Slughorn as soon as possible. And Slughorn is to ashamed to tell anyone without being intoxicated." (It was the sudden stop that killed him (sob))

Yes, I think that's exactly the case.

Laura

TheSaint - Mar 26, 2007 11:51 pm (#640 of 1297)

Laura and PatPat - Sybill made her prediction that "the first to rise will be the first to die." She did not say "the first to leave the table." The first to rise, to stand up, was DD. And she was right! He *was* the first of all those present to die.

Wasn't the saying related to thirteen seated at the table? When DD rose were there not only 12 seated?

Laura W - Mar 27, 2007 12:04 am (#641 of 1297)

Blast! You're right, Saint. Now I'm back to worrying about Ron again. And Harry. Gee, thanks! (wink)

(this all is Jo being as tricky and ambiguous as ever, you know)

Laura

Luna Logic - Mar 27, 2007 3:43 am (#642 of 1297)
Edited by Mar 27, 2007 3:47 am

Don't despair too soon, Laura, because (in my first and quick reasoning) I think PatPat is right. In the situation on which 13 persons are assembled, when 1 person leaves (or rises, or whatever is designed in the rule), the persons who are remaining at the table (or who are still seated) are always 12.

Laura W - Mar 27, 2007 4:03 am (#643 of 1297)

Thank you for your generosity, Luna, but fair's fair - above all, I believe in fairness -, and TheSaint 's right.

Looking at the exact wording of that scene. Sybill does not say "where 13 people are assembled," which would be the case before she sat down. She specifically says, regarding actually sitting at the table, "I dare not, Headmaster! If I join the table, we shall be thirteen! ... Never forget that when thirteen dine together, the first to rise will be the first to die!" It wasn't until she actually sat at the table (i.e. - after DD had stood up and sat down again) and all had dined that the so-called curse takes effect. So, it *was* - as I wrote in post #631, Harry and Ron who rose first. Alas.
Edited to add -

This isn't as far off course as it might seem. To tie it in to topic, we know how dangerous those protection curses are. Will one of them kill one of the Trio or someone else on the "good" side? At the end of HBP, both Ron and Hermione tell Harry they will accompany him on his quest to find and destroy the remaining four Horcruxes. Do you guys think that Harry will tell anyone else about the Horcruxes and all about the stuff he saw in all the Pensieve scenes in HBP? Dumbledore told him that he only had permission to tell Ron and Hermione about them. (Right?) Therefore, if anyone is killed through Horcrux hunting, it will have to be one of the Trio.

Tell me what I have missed in this. And, excuse me if it has been discussed before.

haymoni - Mar 27, 2007 4:30 am (#644 of 1297)

Well, technically, Sybil had already made the decision to join them for dinner, so maybe she didn't physically need to be at the table.

Whether Jo planned it that way or it just happened, it is still pretty neat!

mona amon - Mar 27, 2007 7:57 am (#645 of 1297)

PatPat got it right. (post#633)

There were thirteen at the table. Sybil predicts that the first to rise will be the first to die. That should be Harry and Ron. But it is Dumbledore who dies first.

So Sybil's prediction did not work out.

Laura W - Mar 27, 2007 8:12 am (#646 of 1297)

Thanks, mona. Now I get it. Sorry I misunderstood what you meant, PatPat. I thought what you were saying was that DD stood up first (i.e. - when Trelawney came in) and that he was the first to die so Sybill was right. Now I understand that you were agreeing with my first post 631 that Ron and Harry stood up first, but were pointing out to me that actually it was Dumbledore who died first so Sybill was wrong.

Kindly disregard paragraph two of my post 639. I obviously have to reread my copy of Unfogging the Future again.

Now, Horcruxes ...

We know how dangerous those protection curses are. Will one of them kill one of the Trio or someone else on the "good" side? At the end of HBP, both Ron and Hermione tell Harry they will accompany him on his quest to find and destroy the remaining four Horcruxes. Do you guys think that Harry will tell anyone else about the Horcruxes and all about the stuff he saw in all the Pensieve scenes in HBP? Dumbledore told him that he only had permission to tell Ron and Hermione about them. (Right?) Therefore, if anyone is killed through Horcrux hunting, it will have to be one of the Trio.

Feel free to shoot this down.

Choices - Mar 27, 2007 10:25 am (#647 of 1297)

I think it could be someone other than Ron or Hermione - after all, Ginny, Neville and Luna helped Harry when he went to the MOM to save Sirius and they really didn't fully understand the whole purpose of that mission. I think this could happen again with the Horcrux hunt.

TheSaint - Mar 27, 2007 12:16 pm (#648 of 1297)

I had a question about the thirteen item, so I reread the section. There is nothing concrete, but my read through made me question something.

Just before they eat Xmas lunch, Crookshanks makes a fresh attack on Scabbers. Harry notes that he had not seen him out of Ron's pocket in a while, and that he looks awful.

If Ron is carrying Scabbers around with him...then there were already thirteen at the table (Ron's is probably sneaking him food if so... then he is also dining) when Dumbledore stood up, making Trelawney's prediction correct!

HungarianHorntail11 - Mar 27, 2007 2:19 pm (#649 of 1297)

Isn't that amazing that she can put something like that right under out noses and we only pick up on it in hindsight? Wow.

I am thinking Neville or Ginny with regard to who will die.

Ludicrous Patents Office - Mar 27, 2007 5:49 pm (#650 of 1297)

Laura W I agree that it is a possibility that one of the trio will be killed by a Horcrux. Harry refused to tell Professor McGonagall about what he was doing. Dumbledore made it very clear that knowledge of the Horcruxes must be kept secret. Since DD relaxed the rules for Ron and Hermione I wonder if by working together they will become powerful enough to destroy the Horcruxes. They have been very successful in the past working together. It is really like getting through the enchantments in SS. I presume someone has already analyzed SS enchantments and the Horcruxes. I missed that discussion. LPO

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Laura W - Mar 28, 2007 12:19 am (#651 of 1297)

Thanks guys. You've all been very kind and patient in working this out with me. (big friendly grin)

It occurs to me that Bill Weasley is a professional curse-breaker. I wonder if he will be of any help here. Also wonder how he can help the Trio without Harry breaking his promise (was it?) to Dumbledore about *only* telling Ron and Hermione about the Horcruxes.

Laura

HungarianHorntail11 - Mar 28, 2007 4:01 am (#652 of 1297)

Laura, that coupled with the fact that Harry rarely asks for help may pose problems.

I think it is okay for him to ask for help without telling why. Most people recognize that he is the one to reckon with Big V (with the exception of McGonagall, perhaps). I could envision him bringing the item to Bill and Bill removing the curse or telling him how, at the very least.

Solitaire - Mar 28, 2007 6:17 am (#653 of 1297)

Xray, I do not think we can take those comments about not killing Ron as final. They were made in 2000. Remember that last year, Jo said she was going to spare someone she'd not intended to spare and kill one or two others ... or the other way around. I can't remember exactly. Alas, I need to leave for work, but I am sure someone here will have the exact quote and can set me straight where I goofed!

For the record, I hope it is not Ron ... but I've been worried about him since the first book!

Solitaire

Papa Bear - Mar 29, 2007 1:11 pm (#654 of 1297)

I've enjoyed reading and catching up on this forum and am glad to see that the Harry - Horcrux idea is still intact. I mentioned in a different forum, I believe, that Harry "was" a Horcrux. I believe that big V removed that piece of soul from him in the Ministry of magic when he left Harry after trying to possess him. This is the reason that Harry no longer had any pain or "dreams" in HPB. Got interrupted, I'll finish this thought in a few.

MickeyCee3948 - Mar 29, 2007 1:15 pm (#655 of 1297)

Papa Bear I have been having the same thoughts also since my last read of OotP. In HBP Harry has no pain when Voldemort is feeling any emotion. I imagine that when Voldie found out that Dumbledore was dead, Harry's head probably would have leaped off his body with the joy that Voldemort would have felt. Of course Voldemort could just have better control of his thoughts now then in the past.

Mickey

Papa Bear - Mar 29, 2007 1:48 pm (#656 of 1297)

To continue: I find it interesting that even though DD knew Harry could speak parcel tongue, He asked him again while in the pensieve memory if Harry could understand what big V's kin were saying. I believe he was checking to make sure Harry hadn't lost that ability when big V's soul bit was taken from him in the ministry of Magic.

Hi Mickey, I had that brought up before when someone mentioned what DD had said to Harry when he questioned him about his scar. DD's answer was "I "think" LV is practicing Occlumency on you". I don't think DD found the need to tell Harry about the Horcrux that had been in him since it was already gone. I don't understand how Occlumency works but I find it hard to believe that it could shut off the pain also.

PatPat - Mar 29, 2007 2:06 pm (#657 of 1297)

Hi Mickey, I had that brought up before when someone mentioned what DD had said to Harry when he questioned him about his scar. DD's answer was "I "think" LV is practicing Occlumency on you". I don't think DD found the need to tell Harry about the Horcrux that had been in him since it was already gone. I don't understand how Occlumency works but I find it hard to believe that it could shut off the pain also. Papa Bear

This is a very interesting theory, Papa Bear. My only problem with it is that, if this were true, AND Dumbledore knew about it, then why on earth would Dumbledore tell Harry that he believes there are still four more Horcruxes to find? Why would he send Harry on a wild goose chase? Or do we think that Voldemort had more than the seven, which would completely negate the whole idea of seven being the "most powerfully magical number"?

Soul Search - Mar 29, 2007 3:04 pm (#658 of 1297)

Maybe it is good for the wizarding world that Voldemort never actually achieved his "seven, most powerfully magical of numbers Horcruxes." Had he done so, that powerful magic might have prevented anything from destroying the Horcruxes or defeating him.

I note that, since Voldemort was planning on making the sixth Horcrux at Godric's Hollow, he didn't have that most powerful magical number of Horcruxes when everything went wrong for him.

Laura W - Mar 29, 2007 6:21 pm (#659 of 1297)

Interesting, Soul Search. Are you saying that at that time (i.e. - Oct. 31, 1981) he was one short of the seven-soul-piece split, and that was why he was so vulnerable and the AK rebounded on him? I would never have thought of that.

As *I* read it in HBP, Dumbledore told Harry that he thought LV was planning on making his sixth Horcrux at GH but didn't succeed - as DD believes it, although I know some here think he is mistaken about that - because LV vaporized before he accomplished that. So, Dumbledore speculates, LV made Nagini into his sixth Horcrux instead (with the death of Bertha Jorkins or Frank Bryce?). DD does make it clear that he is not sure about Nagini, though, but that it just seems likely to him. Have I got what I wrote in this paragraph right?

Laura

Soul Search - Mar 30, 2007 6:41 am (#660 of 1297)

We don't have much on the "seven part soul" or just what "seven is the most magical number" means, so I felt free to speculate. My thoughts are along the lines that, had Voldemort successfully completed his "seven part soul" it would have been something like Felix Felicis: everything would go right for him.

When Voldemort went to Godric's Hollow he only had a six-part soul, so there was no "seven part soul" luck in effect. The AK backfired and his body was killed.

Now we have to take two paths: Harry was not made an accidental Horcrux (or he didn't count as a true Horcrux) or Harry was made a true Horcrux. (I assume the locket Horcrux was not destroyed by R.A.B. If it was, then reduce everything by one.)

With Harry not a true Horcrux, Voldemort had a six-part soul until the Diary was destroyed, when he had five, then made Nagini a Horcrux, so he was back to six, then the ring was destroyed, so he now has five.

With Harry a true Horcrux, Voldemort had a seven-part soul after Godric’s Hollow. However, in spite of the seven part soul, Harry bested him with the Stone and defeated diary-Tom, which put Voldemort back to a six-part soul. Nagini made it seven again. With the ring, he is back to six.

HungarianHorntail11 - Mar 30, 2007 11:55 am (#661 of 1297)

Interesting idea about the power behind a 7th Horcrux, Soul Search.

With regard to DD - if he did have the knowledge that Harry is a Horcrux, do you believe Harry would staunchly find and destroy the others knowing he had become one? I think having one in his head would serve as quite a distraction. So even if DD did know, I'm not so certain it would be wise for Harry to know. Perhaps he will find a clue when he finds the last Horcrux - make that second to last.

Steve Newton - Mar 30, 2007 12:10 pm (#662 of 1297)

I don't know, but since no one has ever had more than one Horcrux before (I know we can't be sure of this.) any thoughts about the benefits of 7 soul bits would be highly speculative on Voldemort's part.

haymoni - Mar 30, 2007 12:15 pm (#663 of 1297)

I think it is exactly that - pure speculation - that's why he tried to confirm it with Slughorn.

Soul Search - Mar 30, 2007 3:19 pm (#664 of 1297)

haymoni,

"I think it is exactly that - pure speculation ..."

On my part ... or Voldemort's? Or both?

If we postulate some benefit to a seven-part soul, then we might be able to deduce something from events.

With the "Harry is not a Horcrux" sequence, Voldemort never had a seven part soul, so never benefited from it.

With the "Harry is a Horcrux" sequence, Voldemort had a seven-part soul after Godric's Hollow. He spent twelve years as a lost spirit and Harry bested him twice. After Nagini, Voldemort got his body back, but Harry bested him again. Maybe Harry isn't a Horcrux.

Laura W - Mar 30, 2007 5:44 pm (#665 of 1297)

Well, *of course* its pure speculation as to whether having ones soul in seven parts is any more magically powerful than splitting the soul into six or eight or even two parts. Slughorn - who seems to know a lot about Horcruxes - never confirms it. When 16-year-old Tom Riddle asks, "Wouldn't it be better, make you stronger, to have your soul in more pieces? I mean, for instance, isn't seven the most powerfully magical number, wouldn't seven-?", Sluggy doesn't say, "Yes it is" or some such. He just expresses horror that the boy is even talking this way. And at no time, when Dumbledore is talking to Harry, does he say that he (DD) thinks that, by splitting his soul into exactly seven pieces, LV made himself more magically powerful.

The point, however, is that Tom was and is convinced that it will. The fact that he made that specific comment to Sluggy shows it. And DD takes from the way Tom spoke in the memory that he *did* indeed split his soul into seven pieces because that number *was* important to him. DD says that LV killed thousands during the first war but that there is significance in the how many times he chose to consciously split his soul (i.e. - how many Horcruxes he chose to make).

In other words, just like the prophecy, what Voldemort chose to believe and act upon - whether it *had* to transpire that way or not - set into motion the subsequent events. And Tom Riddle absolutely believed that splitting his soul into exactly seven pieces would make him more magically powerful. Therefore, that was the number he split his soul into.

Having more soul pieces or fewer soul pieces would make LV *feel* more vulnerable; therefore he *would* be more vulnerable. The whole "what we think is what we become" theory in Muggle psychology. He would only feel totally secure - until he could kill Harry at least - with the knowledge that he had made seven (that magically powerful number) soul pieces.

Just a theory.

Laura

Madame Pomfrey - Mar 30, 2007 6:42 pm (#666 of 1297)

I hear that the locket at Grimmauld is not in the OotP movie. Would Jo allow this if it was the real Horcrux? The locket Horcrux seems to be of great importance since it is on one of the book jackets.

mona amon - Mar 30, 2007 6:53 pm (#667 of 1297)

But which was important to him, to have his soul in the right number of pieces, or to have the right number of Horcruxes? By which I mean, if he wanted to divide his soul into only seven pieces, he will not try to replace the diary Horcrux, which he knows is destroyed, because then his soul will get divided into more than seven pieces? But if he thinks it is important to have exactly six Horcruxes, and one piece in his body, then he would try to replace any Horcrux which he knows is destroyed?

PatPat - Mar 30, 2007 8:00 pm (#668 of 1297)

Laura, I think you explained it perfectly and I agree completely. My thought is that he wanted his soul to be divided into seven pieces and those pieces placed into Horcruxes (except, of course, the seventh which is in his body.) If it was only that he wanted seven Horcruxes and he didn't care how many pieces his soul was split into then you would think that Dumbledore would have warned Harry that Voldemort may have made a new Horcrux after discovering the loss of the diary. Since Dumbledore says nothing of the sort, I believe that HE believes that the point was for Voldemort to split his soul into seven pieces not simply to make seven Horcruxes.

The only thing is that this assumption means we have to assume that it takes more than simply murder to split your soul as we know Voldemort certainly murdered more than seven times. Is there a spell that has to be said before the murder in order for the soul to be properly split?

Soul Search - Apr 1, 2007 9:28 am (#669 of 1297)

Laura W,

"Just a theory."

Don't be so shy. Sounds rather good to me.

Whether Voldemort believes seven is a magical number and whether seven really is a magical number are two separate considerations. Voldemort, certainly, believes seven to be a magical number and has created his Horcruxes based upon that belief. Your excellent summary shows that.

Events related to the number of Voldemort's Horcruxes can also help us decide if seven really is a magical number.

Laura W - Apr 1, 2007 10:29 am (#670 of 1297)

Thanks PatPat and Soul Search.

(Trust me, Soul Search, it's not shyness. It's modesty. James and Harry might be arrogant - as Snape says, with some truth - but that's the *last* thing I am; on the Forum or in so-called real life. Self-effacement (a quality I possess) and shyness (which is not a part of my make-up) are not necessarily the same thing: certainly not in my case. Regardless, I appreciate you publicly complimenting me on my reasoning - and the mental effort that went into it - and on my theory that resulted from that reasoning. Especially since we are so often on opposite sides of any given HP issue. (heh, heh))

Laura

T Vrana - Apr 2, 2007 8:48 am (#671 of 1297)

Little change of pace..

Just had a look at the Bloomsbury adult DH book cover. Have to assume that large, ugly locket is Slytherin’s. If Jo is involved with the covers, and if Harry handled this locket at #12 and saw it in the Memory, I question how he can possibly not remember it. That goes double for Hermione.

Locket in the Lake...accio Horcrux! (splash)...

Laura W - Apr 2, 2007 12:19 pm (#672 of 1297)
Edited Apr 2, 2007 1:20 pm

"If Jo is involved with the covers, and if Harry handled this locket at #12 and saw it in the Memory, I question how he can possibly not remember it."

Yeah, well I'm *still* trying to figure out how Harry could not have recognized Dumbledore's voice when Petunia got that Howler. (shrug) Maybe Potter has memory lapses, and the locket is one of them. ... Got to be a better explanation than that one, I know.

Laura

T Vrana - Apr 2, 2007 1:02 pm (#673 of 1297)

I can cut Harry some slack on the howler. DD's voice would have been magnified many times over, and with limited words to work with "Remember the last". Had Harry ever heard DD raise his voice at this point? Now to have it magically amplified... (That is in the books, had Harry heard DD raise his voice? Let's forget the ranting DD on screen in GOF...*sigh*..ruined DD...shame...)

haymoni - Apr 2, 2007 3:07 pm (#674 of 1297)

Plus Harry had just had an encounter with the Dementors. I'm sure he was a bit rattled.

PatPat - Apr 2, 2007 3:54 pm (#675 of 1297)

That is in the books, had Harry heard DD raise his voice? Let's forget the ranting DD on screen in GOF...*sigh*..ruined DD...shame...)

That was SOOO awful. I can't imagine how JKR feels about that. Completely out of character.

I truly believe that Harry will remember the locket from Grimmauld Place and will probably have to track down Mundungus Fletcher to find it.

Laura W - Apr 2, 2007 4:09 pm (#676 of 1297)
Edited Apr 2, 2007 5:57 pm

I wonder if Dung had it on him when Harry encountered him selling Sirius' stuff outside the Three Broomsticks in HBP. If so, and if Fletcher did "dispose" (smirk) of it, who knows where the locket is now. Better it should still be at 12GP.
Edited to Add -

Ok, if you guys are going to excuse Harry for not recognizing Dumbledore's voice during the Howler scene, I'm going to excuse him for not remembering that he saw the locket at 12 GP. (Grin)

During that scene in OotP where they are all doing that major cleaning job on Sirius' house, they came across a whole whack of objects: silver goblets, cutlery, a locket, portraits, tapestries, dishware, etc. I doubt if Harry was paying that much attention to each piece. And this was way before he saw the locket in the Pensieve in HBP so he may have only glanced at the one they all found in 12 GP the previous year.

What he was concentrating on during his stay there was the fact that he was away from the Dursleys and with the people he cared about (the Weasleys, Hermione and Sirius); and he was focused on learning all he could about the old and new Order of the Phoenix; and he was hurt that Dumbledore was ignoring him, as he had all summer. A gold locket sitting amongst all the other Black family treasures would pass right under his radar - understandably.

Laura

T Vrana - Apr 2, 2007 5:00 pm (#677 of 1297)

Didn't they all try to open it? They handled it. And even if Harry forgot, wouldn't Hermione remember a big, heavy locket with a huge green serpent on it?

Laura W - Apr 2, 2007 5:13 pm (#678 of 1297)
Edited Apr 2, 2007 6:17 pm

But Hermione never saw the Pensieve scene that Harry did. She did not see poor Merope Gaunt wearing the locket, did not see what it actually looked like - the colour, the jeweled snake, the shape, etc. - in the Memory.

Are you suggesting, having been told by Harry that the locket he and Dumbledore retrieved was not the real Horcrux, Hermione would have (should have?) automatically thought/said, in the midst of all the grief she was feeling at the end of HBP, "Hey, I remember seeing a locket at Sirius' house in amongst all the other stuff when we all cleaned it last year! I'll bet that's the real Horcrux!" ?

If Jo had had Hermione do that, I would not have bought it. But maybe that's just me.

Laura

Soul Search - Apr 2, 2007 5:22 pm (#679 of 1297)

I think I can excuse the trio for not remembering one of very many strange items at #12.

It is my guess, however, that it will be Ron that remembers it. He is usually the one that comes up with the winning off-the-wall idea.

T Vrana - Apr 2, 2007 6:15 pm (#680 of 1297)

Are you suggesting, having been told by Harry that the locket he and Dumbledore retrieved was not the real Horcrux, Hermione would have (should have?) automatically thought/said, in the midst of all the grief she was feeling at the end of HBP, "Hey, I remember seeing a locket at Sirius' house in amongst all the other stuff when we all cleaned it last year! I'll bet that's the real Horcrux!" ?

Automatically? No. But Hermione's reaction to all the grief was to do what Hermione always does, think and hit the library.

Not just any locket, one that would not open, they spent time on it trying to open it, and it had a rather large green serpent on it. So, yes, I think when Harry told Hermione that they did not get Slytherin's locket, she may have, over the days when she buried her grief in productivity, remembered a locket they all handled and failed to open. Hermione would have been particularly miffed at not being clever enough to figure out how to open it, and, she also tends to pay attention to detail. At eleven, confronting a huge three headed dog, it was Hermione who noticed what it was standing on, a trap door.

Laura W - Apr 2, 2007 11:00 pm (#681 of 1297)
Edited Apr 3, 2007 12:02 am

Well then, something about agreeing to disagree, eh? (smile)

I'm seriously glad Jo did not have Hermione - or Ron or Harry - remember in the few days that pass between Dumbledore's death and the end of the book. More realistic for me.

I know how smart Hermione is but she is spending that time in the library looking up who R.A.B. might be and who the Half-Blood-Prince might be. As well as grieving for the Headmaster and worrying about what will happen to the school. Horcruxes, and the locket in particular, can wait till later. Harry is thinking about the fake locket and the note in those few days. Hermione isn't - which sounds right to me.

It is now June 1997. They cleaned 12 GP in Aug. 1995. Almost two years ago. I still say, of all the objects they came across, even if they did handle it, I think it highly likely that the locket would not pop into anyone's mind in the few days after DD's death, especially with the stress they are under.

I like the fact that it is only we who remember the locket and think it might be the real Horcrux. Harry et al have plenty of time to discover that - if it be so - in DH. No need for Jo to plant that hint in her reader's minds in HBP.

As a matter of fact, I would be perfectly happy if none of the Trio actually think of the locket at 12 GP which they saw two years ago briefly as possibly being the Horcrux. I'd prefer if they - or just Harry - take a trip to Potter's new house for some reason and come across the locket by accident; and then get a flash of inspiration. For me, that would make the 17-year-olds more like real teenagers, as opposed to some kind of geniuses a la Sherlock Holmes.

Of course, we are assuming that locket is still in the house. With Mundungus Fletcher being around and about since Sirius' death in June 1996, I don't think we can say for positive that it is.

Laura

T Vrana - Apr 3, 2007 3:44 am (#682 of 1297)
Edited Apr 3, 2007 4:44 am

Agree to disagree.

No Sherlock Holmes, just the Hermione we have come to know over the previous 5 books.

I don't think the locket at #12 is the real Horcrux. I think the Horcrux is still in the lake and Harry's accio did work. Unfortunately the Horcrux is clutched in RAB's hand, and Harry's accio wasn't strong enough to retrieve Horcrux and wizard.

If it is the locket that is or was at #12 I'll be a bit disappointed as it really wasn't hard to remember. Jo and Hermione are usually a bit more clever.

Luna Logic - Apr 3, 2007 3:58 am (#683 of 1297)

When Harry meets Mundungus Fletcher in Hogsmeade in HBP, he does recognise some objects from 12 Grimmauld place. So T Vrana might be right in saying Harry should have recognised the locket too. Because, I agree, the locket in Sirius' house was not an object quickly seen, they did try hard to open it.

T Vrana - Apr 3, 2007 5:15 am (#684 of 1297)

Luna- Good point!

Magic Words - Apr 3, 2007 8:08 am (#685 of 1297)

I hadn't thought he recognized the items so much as the Black family crest. I could be wrong, though.

T Vrana - Apr 3, 2007 8:32 am (#686 of 1297)

Magic words

You may be right.

I just find it hard to believe that Harry, now responsible for saving the WW, and finding all the Horcruxes, could have handled that huge, ugly locket, with a great, big green serpent on it, then see it in the memory, and not have at least a "hey, I think I've seen that before" moment. He could forget where he saw it, but to for it to be a totally new item to him is bizarre.

T Vrana - Apr 3, 2007 8:37 am (#687 of 1297)

It is now June 1997. They cleaned 12 GP in Aug. 1995. Almost two years ago. Laura

He first saw Slytherin's locket in the memory of poor Merope at the Gaunt abode, didn't he? That would have been Fall '96, I think (trusting your dates, I've never kept track of them). A year and a few months. No grief at this point, he's learning from DD. A bit strange he didn't say "Hey, I've seen that before, somewhere" if he did indeed handle it at #12.

Luna Logic - Apr 3, 2007 10:04 am (#688 of 1297)
Edited by Apr 3, 2007 11:29 am

T Vrana : He first saw Slytherin's locket in the memory of poor Merope

Yes ! And that was not so long ago, at the end of the first week of September, in the same school year, the year of Book 6. ten months before. Did Harry saw the locket well, that time?

Checking HBP Chapter 10:

"next moment, he was dragging her towards Ogden by a gold chain around her neck. 'See this, he bellowed at Ogden, shaking a heavy gold locket at him (...) 'Slytherin's'! yelled Gaunt. 'Salazar Slytherin's! We're his last living descendants (...)" HPB Bloomsbury p. 196.

(Going to check the scene with Burke) Chapter 13, Caractacus Burke:

"She said that the locket had been Slytherin's (...) when I looked at it, it had his mark all right, and a few simple spells where enough to tell me the truth." (No other description) p. 245.

The cave, chapter 26 :

"Dumbledore scooped the locket from the bottom of the stone basin and stowed it inside his robes." p. 539. (That all the description)

Chapter 28 :

"The locket they had managed to steal so many hours before had fallen out of Dumbledore's pocket. It has opened (...)

He turned the locket over in his hand. This was neither as large as the locket he remembered seeing in the Pensieve, nor were there any markings upon it, no sign of the ornate S that was supposed to be Slytherin's mark. Moreover, there was noting inside but a folded parchment wedged tightly into the place where a portrait should have been." p. 568

I must have missed a quote, because there no mention in those above of a portrait. We know the Slytherin locket is made of gold, is heavy and large, has a ornate S on it, and must have a portrait in it.

So, what about silver lockets ?

T Vrana - Apr 3, 2007 10:52 am (#689 of 1297)

He also saw it some time post Christmas when DD showed him the Hepzibah memory....

Laura W - Apr 3, 2007 11:31 am (#690 of 1297)
Edited Apr 3, 2007 12:44 pm

"It is now June 1997. They cleaned 12 GP in Aug. 1995. Almost two years ago. Laura"

"He first saw Slytherin's locket in the memory of poor Merope at the Gaunt abode, didn't he? That would have been Fall '96, I think (trusting your dates, I've never kept track of them). A year and a few months." (T. Vrana)

Yes, but I was talking about when Hermione - not Harry - would have last seen the locket. It was Hermione who you said should have remembered it.

"And even if Harry forgot, wouldn't Hermione remember a big, heavy locket with a huge green serpent on it?" (T. Vrana, post 677)

"I think when Harry told Hermione that they did not get Slytherin's locket, she may have, over the days when she buried her grief in productivity, remembered a locket they all handled and failed to open." (T. Vrana, post 680)

I thought our whole conversation was about Hermione remembering the locket and, as I said in 678, she did not see the Pensieve scene. Therefore, the last time she saw the locket would have been two years previous to DD's death. (i.e. - Aug. 1995)

Laura

haymoni - Apr 3, 2007 11:35 am (#691 of 1297)

Why did I think the locket at #12 was silver?

T Vrana - Apr 3, 2007 11:40 am (#692 of 1297)
Edited Apr 3, 2007 12:43 pm

Laura- Got it on Hermione and the dates. Was also discussing Harry's recognizing his pilfered inheritance with another poster when I also responded to you.

I started with Harry should know, and if he forgot Hermione should recall. I contend they both should be bonking their heads if the #12 locket is the Horcrux. Harry because he's seen it a number of times, and Hermione because she's usually quite good with details, is very clever and has a great memory.

T Vrana - Apr 3, 2007 11:45 am (#693 of 1297)

Haymoni- not sure, but I don't even think the metal is mentioned at #12. Just a heavy locket...going to check...

Laura W - Apr 3, 2007 11:46 am (#694 of 1297)
Edited Apr 3, 2007 12:53 pm

haymoni, there is actually no mention in OotP of what it was made of. Here is the exact quote from p.108 (Raincoast): "There was a musical box that emitted a fairly sinister, tinkling tune when wound, and they all found themselves becoming curiously weak and sleepy, until Ginny had the sense to slam the lid shut; a heavy locket that none of them could open; a number of ancient seals; and in a dusty box, an Order of Merlin, First Class, that had been awarded to Sirius's grandfather for 'services to the Ministry'."

T Vrana ... re your post 692: Got it! (grin)

T Vrana - Apr 3, 2007 11:56 am (#695 of 1297)

It's that heavy locket that none of them could open that gets me. They spent time with it...

I really hope it isn't that easy, hidden in plain sight with Harry and Hermione totally forgetting...Hermione hates it when she can't solve things....she can't open it , but this huge ugly locket slips her mind when Harry mentions Slytherin’s locket.....it has the big green serpent...and Harry has seen it a few times....Harry, think...

Better yet, remember the accio, the locket is in the lake...

Choices - Apr 3, 2007 12:43 pm (#696 of 1297)
Edited Apr 3, 2007 1:44 pm

T Vrana, where do you find the part that says the locket has a "big green serpent" on it? According to my book, the heavy gold locket has Slytherin's mark, an ornate, serpentine "S", on it. Not a word about a big green serpent. Can you quote where it says about the serpent being on the locket?

haymoni - Apr 3, 2007 12:51 pm (#697 of 1297)

I'm guessing Harry forgot the details of the locket, just like he forgot where he had seen Nicholas Flamel. Heck, that was in the same book!!

Not to mention, a good number of us had completely forgotten about "young Sirius Black" by the time Book 3 came out.

I'm willing to cut them some slack. I'm sure the aroma of doxy droppings affected all of them.

T Vrana - Apr 3, 2007 12:51 pm (#698 of 1297)
Edited Apr 3, 2007 1:52 pm

Choices....Oh, sorry, this discussion started when I saw the cover for the Bloomsbury adult version of DH. I said if Jo is involved with the look of the covers and this is Slytherin's locket, it further supported my thought that the Slytherin locket is pretty unforgettable.

T Vrana - Apr 3, 2007 12:54 pm (#699 of 1297)

Haymoni- I don't mind that he forgets where, but that he forgets entirely. Didn't he recall seeing Nicholas's name somewhere? But couldn't remember where? This would work for me with the locket as well. But to totally forget seeing THAT locket....

me and my shadow 813 - Apr 3, 2007 2:17 pm (#700 of 1297)

I agree, T Vrana, it would be disappointing that Harry didn't figure out 2+2=4, the locket he handled for a portion of time at #12GPlace was the same as in Pensieves with Hepzibah and Merope. One thing I am relying on is this final book will have more twists and turns in the plot than any other. But I rationalise this potentially dull locket-plot-point because a)the books are meant for juveniles and wouldn't they be excited if they figured it out before Harry, and b)if RAB is Regulus, #12GP seems a likely place for the Horcrux locket to end up. I will be disappointed, nonetheless. I am not convinced of the locket-in-lake theory, but I'd be more happy with the plot if the locket is just about anywhere but #12GP.

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T Vrana - Apr 3, 2007 4:47 pm (#701 of 1297)

Why not the locket in the lake? Something tried to respond to Harry's 'accio'. I can't buy that the leaping body was part of LV's defense. Everything else was very effective. The leaping body only served to warn the intruder that something was in the water. It didn't accomplish anything else. DD, believing no one else knew abut the Horcruxes, glossed over what I think is the obvious (once we know the Horcrux isn't in the basin). Harry's accio worked. The Horcrux is in the lake on the body or in the hand of RAB. JMHO.

As for being for juveniles, I really hope Jo hasn't lowered her level for this. That would be a shame.

Of course, we agree about #12!

mona amon - Apr 3, 2007 6:42 pm (#702 of 1297)
Edited Apr 3, 2007 7:44 pm

If Jo is involved with the covers, and if Harry handled this locket at #12 and saw it in the Memory, I question how he can possibly not remember it.(T Vrana)

LOL, T Vrana, as soon as I saw that cover I thought of you!

I feel Harry doesn't remember the locket at #12 because he has absolutely no reason to suspect that there is a Horcrux in #12 of all places. We feel it may be the Horcrux because we feel that R.A.B might have been Regulus or some other Black, but Harry has no way of making the connection.

Once he discovers that R.A.B is Regulus (assuming that he is) I feel that will jog his memory.

Not that I don't like your locket in the lake theory, it is very convincing. I just don't like the idea of going with Harry to that Inferi infested cave all over again...

T Vrana - Apr 4, 2007 3:50 am (#703 of 1297)

T Vrana, as soon as I saw that cover I thought of you!

LOL!

I can accept that the thought never occurred, because, as you say, what would a Horcrux be doing at #12. But, if the cover does represent the locket, Harry should at least be thinking the locket in the memories looks familiar.

But then we would know the locket at #12 is the locket. So, either this is a thestral moment (Harry not seeing them 'til the next book after seeing Cedric die) and Jo just wanted to save it, or, it isn't the locket. If it is the first option, a little sloppy.

Laura W - Apr 4, 2007 4:59 am (#704 of 1297)
Edited Apr 4, 2007 6:09 am

I exactly thought and still think it was the first option. And, for some reason, I have absolutely no problem with that.

By having Harry remember that the locket he saw at 12 GP looked like the one he saw on Merope's neck in the Pensieve scene, and by having him say, "Hey, now I know where the real Horcrux locket might be!" at the end of HBP (i.e. - in the few days recorded in HBP between DD's death and the last page of the book), Jo might feel she would be giving away something - or at least planting an important clue - that she doesn't want to put into her readers' minds before they are reading Book Seven. (A perfectly legitimate and believable thing for her to do, in my opinion - for the reasons I gave in my other posts on this subject.)

Therefore, the locket connection will come like a flash to Harry in DH; or, in DH he will physically see that locket again somewhere and, upon seeing it, remember that he originally saw it at 12GP way back in the summer of 1995 and also in the Pensieve scene. (I can accept both those possibilities as what might realistically happen.)

OR, it isn't the actual Horcrux locket and is really Mark Evans: you guys know what I mean. (wink) Amongst the music box and the silverware and the engraved goblets and the tapestries and the portraits and the shrunken heads in Sirius' house, there was a heavy locket. Just an innocent heavy locket. It's a possibility. (I don't believe that, by the way, as I think that locket *was* the relic of Salazar Slytherin's that Tom's mother owned and that he made into a Horcrux.)

T Vrana - Apr 4, 2007 5:53 am (#705 of 1297)

By having Harry remember that the locket he saw at 12 GP looked like the one he saw on Merope's neck in the Pensieve scene, and by having him say, "Hey, now I know where the real Horcrux locket might be!" at the end of HBP...Jo might feel she would be giving away something ...

I can accept that he didn't put #12 and Slytherin's Locket together. I find it harder to accept that he didn't have a déjà vu moment when he saw the locket again, a couple of times, if that thing on the book cover is Slytherin's locket. Even a vague sense that the locket looked somewhat familiar would satisfy me.

Magic Words - Apr 4, 2007 12:47 pm (#706 of 1297)

Not that I don't like your locket in the lake theory, it is very convincing. I just don't like the idea of going with Harry to that Inferi infested cave all over again... mona amon

This is pretty much exactly how I feel.

I don't have much trouble believing that Harry forgot how the locket in GP12 looked, probably because I'd long forgotten its existence, until someone said "I bet it's the Horcrux!" and I went back and reread that section of OotP. Yes, Harry spent more time with it than the casual reader, but it was over a year since he last saw it. I'm not sure I could recognize a piece of jewelry I looked at in a store over a year ago, even if I came across someone wearing it.

PatPat - Apr 4, 2007 3:56 pm (#707 of 1297)
Edited Apr 4, 2007 4:56 pm

I don't have a problem with Harry not remembering the locket immediately. Actually, I think it would be more unrealistic if he had, as someone else mentioned earlier. It wouldn't have made sense to me if he had immediately remembered a locket he had seen nearly two years before. Yes, he probably handled it as we know that none of them could open it, so most likely each one of them tried for at least a few minutes to open it. But after a harrowing ordeal in the cave, watching Dumbledore die, fighting the Death Eaters, Dumbledore's funeral, and breaking up with Ginny, I don't think we can expect him to suddenly say, "Hey, remember that locket from 2 years ago? Think that's the Horcrux?"

However, after he has had time to process all that happened and starts to really focus on the job at hand, I think it will eventually occur to him. And I think he may have to find Mundungus Fletcher to get it back. (Assuming of course that it really IS the Horcrux. There is certainly the possibility that it is just a red herring.)

T Vrana - Apr 4, 2007 7:06 pm (#708 of 1297)

PAT PAT-

He first saw the locket again (if it is THE locket) with DD, in two memories the Gaunt house and poor Hepzibah, not after his harrowing cave experience. And I'm not asking he remember that he saw it at #12 after his ordeal, just that he have a sense of familiarity when he sees it in the memories. It is rather a memorable looking piece on the cover of the Bloomsbury edition.

mona amon - Apr 4, 2007 7:53 pm (#709 of 1297)
Edited Apr 4, 2007 9:05 pm

I find myself wavering.

Harry saw the locket two times in the pensieve, and seems to have observed it in great detail. Seems rather unlikely that he wouldn't have at least some feeling that it looked familiar, as T Vrana points out.

Perhaps the one in #12 looked different, covered with dust and grime? Or perhaps it does register at some subconscious level, but he is too busy taking in the other details of the scene to make a conscious connection?

Because when I re-read the chapter in OOTP where the locket is mentioned, I became quite convinced that it was the Horcrux, for the following reasons-

For most of the other metal objects, the metal is specified, silver snuffbox, silver instrument, large golden ring, old photographs in tarnished silver frames. But no mention of what the locket is made of. Is JKR being sneaky here? Would 'gold locket' be too much of a give away?

And why devote a whole chapter to all that house cleaning? I remember finding it a bit tedious the first time I read OOTP.

And then there is Kreacher, trying to retrieve things from the sacks, which gives us the hint that the locket did not get thrown away after all, and Mundungus in Book 6 trying to sell stuff from #12. To me it all seems to point to the locket in #12 being the Horcrux.

EDIT: perhaps it is now in somebody's vault? The vault we see on the UK cover? Better stop now!

Laura W - Apr 5, 2007 2:37 am (#710 of 1297)
Edited Apr 5, 2007 3:50 am

"I don't have a problem with Harry not remembering the locket immediately. Actually, I think it would be more unrealistic if he had, as someone else mentioned earlier." (PatPat)

I was the "someone else" who mentioned this earlier.

Post #681: "I'm seriously glad Jo did not have Hermione - or Ron or Harry - remember in the few days that pass between Dumbledore's death and the end of the book. More realistic for me. ... It is now June 1997. They cleaned 12 GP in Aug. 1995. Almost two years ago. I still say, of all the objects they came across, even if they did handle it, I think it highly likely that the locket would not pop into anyone's mind in the few days after DD's death, especially with the stress they are under. I like the fact that it is only we who remember the locket and think it might be the real Horcrux. Harry et al have plenty of time to discover that - if it be so - in DH. No need for Jo to plant that hint in her reader's minds in HBP. As a matter of fact, I would be perfectly happy if none of the Trio actually think of the locket at 12 GP which they saw two years ago briefly as possibly being the Horcrux. I'd prefer if they - or just Harry - take a trip to Potter's new house for some reason and come across the locket by accident; and then get a flash of inspiration. For me, that would make the 17-year-olds more like real teenagers, as opposed to some kind of geniuses a la Sherlock Holmes." (Laura W)

And once again, PatPat, we see eye to eye. (But if there are any dungbombs to be thrown at that "someone else" by others, I feel it only fair to remind all that they should be lobbed my way.)

Laura

PatPat - Apr 5, 2007 5:36 am (#711 of 1297)

He first saw the locket again (if it is THE locket) with DD, in two memories the Gaunt house and poor Hepzibah, not after his harrowing cave experience. T Vrana

Yes this is true, but, at the time, he had no idea that the locket was going to have the significance that it has now. He did not know the real reason behind Dumbledore showing him all of these memories. He was watching the memories trying to take in as much as he could about Voldemort. Also, remember Harry had other things on his mind as well (I.e. Snape and Malfoy). His brief glimpses of the locket may not have been enough at the time for him to put two and two together. He handled A LOT of objects at #12. I can't expect a 16 year old to remember such a thing when I have trouble remembering where I put my keys.

Laura W, I don't mind fending off some of the Dungbombs. You shouldn't take all heat.

T Vrana - Apr 5, 2007 7:31 am (#712 of 1297)

Dungbombs!?! No, just a friendly debate....

Luna Logic - Apr 5, 2007 9:32 am (#713 of 1297)
Edited by Apr 5, 2007 10:39 am

T Vrana : if that thing on the book cover is Slytherin's locket. But that thing on the book cover can't be Slytherin's locket. On the cover the locket is silver made, but Slytherin's locket is made of gold. (quotes are in my post 688)

mona amon : when I re-read the chapter in OOTP where the locket is mentioned, I became quite convinced that it was the Horcrux, for the following reasons-

For most of the other metal objects, the metal is specified, silver snuffbox, silver instrument, large golden ring, old photographs in tarnished silver frames. But no mention of what the locket is made of. Is JKR being sneaky here? Would 'gold locket' be too much of a give away?

And why devote a whole chapter to all that house cleaning? I remember finding it a bit tedious the first time I read OOTP.

Good remarks, but nothing is proved, in one side or the other! And why does the cover has a silver locket on it? If a silver locket exists, this locket is not the Slytherin/Gaunt's locket.

But... could some magic disguises a silver locket into a gold locket?

T Vrana - Apr 5, 2007 9:39 am (#714 of 1297)
Edited Apr 5, 2007 10:39 am

Luna- I didn't notice that... hmmmm..

T Vrana - Apr 5, 2007 9:42 am (#715 of 1297)

Just looked... looks gold on my screen....

Luna Logic - Apr 5, 2007 11:56 am (#716 of 1297)
Edited by Apr 5, 2007 12:58 pm

You are right, T Vrana, with the link in the Which is your favorite cover for DH? thread the locket looks like gold.

I "saw" silver the first time I had a link to the adult cover, I don't remember where, and I have stayed with this idea since! Mistake of mine

sorry for interrupting the discussion.

Phelim Mcintyre - Apr 8, 2007 9:50 am (#717 of 1297)

I have no problem about Harry and Hermione forgetting about the locket at 12 Grimmauld Place. They were in shock from Dumbeldore's death. Their brain would have gone into automatic. They were also recovering from the exhilaration of the battle that had just taken place. After a major bereavement it takes time for the brain to get back to normal - especially after one as traumatic as Harry witnessed.

Hermione is also feeling less than capable after her "mistake" concerning Snape. She probably is taking some of the guilt onto herself. It will take time for both Harry and Hermione to switch onto to the locket. My guess is it is the last Horcrux found. "We still haven't found the locket" "What locket" "Slytherin's locket." Notice how long it took Harry to remember about Flamel.

I also guess that the locket will be at Hogwarts in the possession of a certain house elf.

T Vrana - Apr 8, 2007 12:48 pm (#718 of 1297)

But didn't Harry say the name seemed familiar, Nicholas Flamel?

Harry wasn't in shock when he saw Slytherin's locket, twice, he was in memories with DD learning as much about LV as he could. Yet not a word about the locket looking familiar? That's all I'm asking for, a bit of déjà vu....

From HBP, LV's Request, page 437

"Slytherin's mark," he said quietly, as the light played upon an ornate, serpentine S.

Harry got a great look at the locket here. That 'ornate serpentine S' seems very distinctive....

Laura W - Apr 8, 2007 5:15 pm (#719 of 1297)
Edited Apr 8, 2007 6:19 pm

"Perhaps the one in #12 looked different, covered with dust and grime?" (mona amon)

This sentence kind of got skipped over but, as I think about it, it makes a lot of sense to me. When Harry saw the locket around Merope's neck and when he saw it protected in a box as one of Hepzibah's treasures, it would have been nice and shiny; like it looks on the adult cover of DH. Both the jeweled serpent and the heavy gold would have been "very distinctive." But it certainly would not have been that way when they saw it at 12GP.

If we assume that Regulus Black stole the original locket and took it to his home - I know all this is an assumption at this point -, he would have taken it there in 1980. I base this on the fact that, when Harry and Sirius are looking at the Black Family Tree tapestry in the summer of 1995, the date of death for Regulus was "some fifteen years previously". Fifteen years previous to 1995 is 1980. Therefore, the locket has been sitting around that filthy house for 15 years.

And we know how filthy the "Noble and Most Ancient House of Black" had become because of the amount of cleaning Sirius, the Weasleys, Harry and Hermione had to do in order to make it even inhabitable. Sirius tells Harry that Snape has been asking him "all summer" how the cleaning was coming along. And we see for ourselves how hard Molly had her crew working. The state of that place - and all in it - must have been abysmal! The box that Sirius' grandfather's Order of Merlin was in is described as "dusty." As must have been all the objects that had been sitting there for years and years. Including the locket. Not only dusty, but probably grimy as well.

Laura

haymoni - Apr 9, 2007 5:38 am (#720 of 1297)

And taking it home - knowing the protections that Mr. Black put on the house - was probably a pretty good idea.

Choices - Apr 9, 2007 9:27 am (#721 of 1297)

I could see the locket looking quite different if it was silver - silver tarnishes and looks black when not polished, but gold does not change - it stays nice and golden without polishing.

Mattew Bates - Apr 9, 2007 2:58 pm (#722 of 1297)

It was, at one point, covered with a noxious green potion. We have no indication that was ever washed off. It was left to sit in the dust of the house covered with a layer of something that may have attracted grime. Let's put it this way - it may not have been a spell holding the locket closed.

Choices - Apr 9, 2007 4:52 pm (#723 of 1297)

Possibly, if that is indeed the Slytherin locket and not just a red herring.

T Vrana - Apr 9, 2007 6:43 pm (#724 of 1297)
Edited Apr 9, 2007 7:48 pm

So, Harry didn't recognize Slytherin's locket and couldn't recall handling such a locket because it was dusty and grimy, and he was under stress once he realized he had a fake, but at some point even later and more removed from his handling it and seeing it, while under stress to find four Horcruxes, without DD's assistance, he will get a brain wave and remember it from #12......

...no way...(at least not believable for me)

If the #12 locket was too grimy to stir a memory when he saw Tom salivating over it (the shiny one), I can't see what could prompt him to 'remember through' the grime later.

So, Harry can't put two and two together. Hermione should have by now. Perhaps Kreacher will slip and mumble something...

HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 10, 2007 8:49 am (#725 of 1297)

Even if the locket is the one containing a Horcrux, my thoughts lead to the Thestrals and how JKR left it for the next book. It wouldn't make sense for her to expose it via Harry or Hermione in Book 6. JMHO.

Soul Mate for Sirius - Apr 11, 2007 10:29 am (#726 of 1297)

T Vrana- I don't necessarily think Harry will get some huge brainwave about the locket. I think perhaps it will come into his possession somehow and he'll then think..."This is the locket from Sirius' house!" and try to open in and perhaps clean it off, and then perhaps he and Hermione, at the same moment will think "This could be it!!" because they will have already speculated that RAB could be Sirius' brother.

JM2K

-Jenn

vega ome - Apr 14, 2007 8:32 am (#727 of 1297)

Howdy All, This is my second post. I tried to read everything and my hats off to all of you. JKR has left many avenues for the story to go (well done). I don't mean to steal anyone’s ideas (apologize in advance) but my thoughts are...

I'm on the fence about "Harrycrux" both sides have solid theories, I think that the ancient magic Lilly used to protect Harry would of protected him from a piece of LV's soul entering his body. Quirrell could not touch him and he was host to LV's main remaining soul part.

Now whether this protection works against others I don't know. It does not work against LV anymore and plenty of folks have hurt him and touched him. I think the ancient magic Lilly used to protect him is gone now.

I really like the locket in the lake theory. If RAB is Regulus Black I feel that the locket Horcrux being destroyed/not destroyed could go either way. RAB could of died in the cave with out destroying the Horcrux or he could of been killed when he tried to destroy the Horcrux. Is the locket a valid Horcrux threat anymore? I don't know for sure but I'm leaning towards in not.

Why would it be on a cover then? Could be needs it to figure out how to disarm the others or its used to fool LV in some way in the end .

There are two others that may be RAB, Sirius' uncle, I thinks his initials where AB and Amelia Bones is AB. Could be, these folks did not like to go by their first names.

I'm in the three Horcruxes left camp. Diary, ring and locket destroyed/disarmed. Three left which could be cup (probably), sword (maybe), snake (maybe), school award (maybe not), wand (maybe not)or something else close to one of the founders (some item of jewelry, clothing or item they wore daily).

I think Hermione and Ron will help find them but they will need assistance from, Binns, the man down Diagon Alley where LM sells his stuff, Mundungus, DD's portrait, Bill, Dobby and Kreacher.

Not much new but let 'em fly anyway.

v/r

Mike

xray - Apr 14, 2007 9:21 am (#728 of 1297)
Edited Apr 14, 2007 10:38 am

I think that the ancient magic Lilly used to protect Harry would of protected him from a piece of LV's soul entering his body. - vega ome

This is an excellent idea which lends more support to my thoughts that Harry is definitely not a Horcrux.

There are two others that may be RAB, Sirius' uncle, I thinks his initials where AB and Amelia Bones is AB. Could be, these folks did not like to go by their first names.

Hrm, another nice idea. I hadn't thought of Amelia Bones but *checks through the book* it can't be her... her full name is Amelia Susan Bones "Interrogators: Cornelius Oswald Fudge, Minister of Magic; Amelia Susan Bones, Head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement; . . . (OotP, p. 138). But it is possible that it may have been a different Bones. Sirius' Uncle Alphard is a good guess. My Uncle Alphard had left me a decent bit of gold he's been wiped off here, too, that's probably why (OotP, p. 111)

Actually after rereading this passage, he's probably the most likely candidate. He was wiped off the tapestry just like Sirius was, presumably because he gave Sirius some gold, but that's probably one of Jo's smokescreens.

vega ome - Apr 14, 2007 3:30 pm (#729 of 1297)

Howdy xray,

Your right about Amelia Bones of course and I was reading another thread that mentioned Sirius' uncle. Looks like others discussed these years ago on another thread. The fact he was blasted off the tapestry is a good indication, I agree.

Let me run this past you. DD believes that Nagini is a Horcrux but I feel if he was going to make a snake/living thing a Horcrux it would of been the Basilisk down in the COS. Nagini is out in the real/Muggle world and not protected but the Basilisk is in a more secure place. The diary was made a Horcrux after he left Hogwarts.

In the movie TR/LV looked pretty mad when HP killed it. It may even be possible that the Horcrux can still be retrieved from the Basilisk’s body?

Just thinking out loud. The last book has to cover allot of ground and I'm looking for shortcuts. I'm still in the three Horcrux left camp.

v/r

Mike

Solitaire - Apr 14, 2007 3:43 pm (#730 of 1297)

The diary was made a Horcrux after he left Hogwarts.

Are you sure? I thought the Diary was created back when Tom was still at Hogwarts. He was still a student when he killed his father, planted the false memory in Morfin, and stole the ring. We see him wearing the ring in Sluggy's memory. I suspect he made the first two Horcruxes--the Diary and the ring--shortly after that conversation with Slughorn, while he was still at Hogwarts. Of course, I am wrong a lot.

Solitaire

rambkowalczyk - Apr 14, 2007 5:26 pm (#731 of 1297)

A lot of people in the past have suggested that Ravenclaws item might be the tiara that was in the ROR. I have seen suggested elsewhere that it could be the Mirror of Erised because it had clawed feet.

But maybe Harry doesn't need to find all the Horcruxes to finish off Voldemort. Suppose he just pushes him beyond the veil. boom, he's gone. and if his Horcruxes aren't destroyed maybe this is a fate worse than death?

vega ome - Apr 14, 2007 6:48 pm (#732 of 1297)

Howdy Solitaire,

No I'm not sure of anything. Just a theory after reading that JKR said something to effect of DD being not far off the mark. I just think its possible that he made the basilisk a Horcrux before he made the diary one.

Howdy rambkowalcyzk,

Anything is possible but the description on the book cover suggests that finding the Horcruxes will be the main drive. At least how I read it.

v/r

Mike

HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 14, 2007 7:28 pm (#733 of 1297)
Edited Apr 14, 2007 8:30 pm

I think that the ancient magic Lilly used to protect Harry would of protected him from a piece of LV's soul entering his body. vega ome

Hi vega and welcome to the boards! Regarding the passage above, I tend to think it would be quite a protection. How could Big V possibly kill Harry if he knows there is a piece of himself in Harry? (Not meaning that it is impossible, mind you, but giving what we know about Big V, highly improbable.)

The more I think about it, the more I believe he does not feel any of his soulbits are expendable. Soul Search brought that to my attention.

Laura W - Apr 14, 2007 9:35 pm (#734 of 1297)
Edited Apr 14, 2007 10:35 pm

"Of course, I am wrong a lot." (Solitaire)

No, you are NOT wrong a lot!!

'Nuff said.

LW

Quidditch Mom - Apr 15, 2007 4:26 am (#735 of 1297)

A quick note on the locket discussion from a few days ago. As some of the decorating scheme at the Black home was related to serpents, a locket with a serpent on it would not have seemed all that noteworthy at the time they were cleaning. I agree with others that the trio will first make the RAB = Regulus connection before they recall they've seen the locket before.

I had been concerned that Voldemort, when he knew that the diary had been destroyed, would have made a replacement. Now, reading your "seven is the most magical" discussion, I think not. If he made replacement Horcruxes, he would no longer have a seven part soul - it would be some other less magical number. Voldemort wouldn't want that.

Solitaire - Apr 15, 2007 6:29 pm (#736 of 1297)
Edited Apr 15, 2007 7:29 pm

LOL Laura! Thanks for the vote of confidence.

Vega, I keep thinking about Dumbledore's assertion that it is dangerous to make a Horcrux of something that can think for itself. While I believe Riddle would have sought out things with a strong sense of magical history to them, I also believe that he might have concentrated on things that belonged to Salazar Slytherin, as he seems to feel that connection most strongly. So perhaps the Basilisk was a Horcrux ... but I don't think so.

I keep coming back to the tiara. I'd like to know more about the one in the RoR. I also think the tiara Molly mentioned to Fleur might be important ... although I am not sure how.

The thing about making a Horcrux to replace a destroyed Horcrux ... the part of the soul that was in the destroyed Horcrux has been destroyed. So we know that 2/7 of Voldemort's soul have been destroyed. He can make more Horcruxes, but I am not sure that it would be the same. These would be further dividing the already diminished soul. Do the pieces of soul grow weaker the more times they are subdivided? Is that what makes one less "human"?

About pushing Voldemort through the veil, Ramb ... first they have to BE in the room with the veil. I think that may be where they are, since Harry does seem to be reaching toward a curtain of some sort ... but I could be wrong about that. They appear to be outside ... but that could just be magic, as we know (the Hogwarts ceiling?). I do think that what is behind that veil could well be something Voldemort fears. Look at his hands in the US cover pic. They are both in front of him, and the palms are facing away, as in a defensive position. Harry's palm is face up, as though he is reaching toward something ... well, that's how it looks to me.

Solitaire

Magic Words - Apr 17, 2007 10:39 am (#737 of 1297)

I still say Ron just threw a Horcrux and yelled "Harry, catch!"

Eroej Kab - Apr 27, 2007 6:01 am (#738 of 1297)

Aren't the rubies in the House hour glasses artifacts of Gryffindor? (has this been covered previously?) Could one of them be a Horcrux - hidden by it's being in a vast pile of similar objects?

MickeyCee3948 - Apr 27, 2007 6:50 am (#739 of 1297)
Edited Apr 27, 2007 7:52 am

I have been saying that Harry was a Horcrux since GoF and I still think he is.

The comment Dumbledore made about Tom's Snake being the last Horcrux was to alert Harry that a living object can be a Horcrux. I believe he thought Harry was a Horcrux since the scene in his office with the silvery instrument. He saw Harry's soul had two pieces but that they were separate. He just did not have the strength(due to his love for Harry) to tell him the truth.

Tom also knows that Harry is a Horcrux hence his demands that the DEs leave Harry alone. But he will be to engrossed in disabling the WW now that Dumbledore is dead to make any new Horcruxes.

The Horcruxes that HRH&G are looking for are the locket, the cup, the tiara(a duplicate of the one Fleur will wear in her wedding) and Harry. The real question is how do you separate the Horcrux in Harry without killing him?

Mickey

HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 27, 2007 8:58 am (#740 of 1297)

Mickey, I agree with your statements.

How to get rid of Harry's Horcrux? Perhaps in much the same way Snape AK'd DD, except, since it seems to have been the fake locket, it took him instead. I'm sure Snape knew it was risky business. His face ran too parallel to Harry's in the cave for it not to be a hint.

vega ome - Apr 27, 2007 5:13 pm (#741 of 1297)

Howdy All,

I don't think Harry is a Horcrux even though much evidence suggests it. Could DD have used some ancient magic like Lilly did when he was AK'd by Snape that will keep LV or Snape from getting the Harrycrux?

There are so many possibilities and so many spells we know nothing about. There is definitely more to the tower scene than we know.

v/r

Mike

Choices - Apr 27, 2007 5:23 pm (#742 of 1297)

Vega Ome - "I don't think Harry is a Horcrux even though much evidence suggests it. Could DD have used some ancient magic like Lilly did when he was AK’d by Snape that will keep LV or Snape from getting the Harrycrux?"

I can't decide if you think Harry is or isn't a Horcrux. You say you don't think he is, but then you refer to him as "Harrycrux". Can you explain?

HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 27, 2007 8:02 pm (#743 of 1297)

Glad you feel the same way, Choices. I was beginning to think I missed something (like my mind) until I read your post. LOL.

frogface - Apr 28, 2007 3:38 am (#744 of 1297)
Edited Apr 28, 2007 4:42 am

I'm still undecided on this as well. The main problem I have with the theory is that I have trouble believing that

A) Voldemort would intentionally make Harry a Horcrux - anyone can see the potential difficulties this could bring to an evil Dark Lord.

B) That a Horcrux could be made by accident. We can't be sure of this one, because we don't know the process of the spell, all we know is that committing murder is necessary. But I would guess that’s its probably a pretty complicated piece of magic. We're talking about a person's soul here after all.

And finally, I can't help but take note of Voldy's snake like appearance - that does indicate that he and Nagini are somehow linked in some special way.

On the other hand, I do think that

A) We are going to get some kind of twist in the Horcrux story-line.

and

B) We know that Harry and Voldy are linked by the scar and we also have the twinkle in Dumbledore's eye, and the stuff about "in essence divided?".

That "in essence divided" actually set me on a path to predicting something very similar to the Horcruxes before HBP came out. I guessed that Voldemort put part of his "essence" into the Diary. I was so chuffed when that turned out to be correct

Phelim Mcintyre - Apr 28, 2007 4:16 am (#745 of 1297)

I don't believe Harry is a Horcrux, and always took the phrase "in essence divided" was a clue to Nagini being a Horcrux. If Harry was a Horcrux could what happened in the graveyard and then the MoM have changed this? Could Voldemort now be connected to Harry in a way he doesn't realise through Harry's blood, his greatest strength is his greatest weakness type thing? Could Harry's link to Voldemort via the scar enable him to touch Horcruxes without harm?

PatPat - Apr 28, 2007 4:23 am (#746 of 1297)

I don't believe that Harry is a Horcrux, either, though there have been some convincing arguments put forth. My reasons pretty much mirror frogface's above. My thought on the "in essence divided" thing is that the device was confirming Dumbledore's suspicions that Voldemort had Horcruxes and that Nagini was one of them. Remember, at the time, Dumbledore was not positive about his suspicion. He had not yet seen the memory from Slughorn. But Harry's vision, which indicated that Voldemort was inside the snake at the time, must have strengthened his belief. Then the little device confirmed it for him. That VOLDEMORT is "in essence divided", meaning that his soul is split and part of it is in the snake. Just my opinion! Could be way off base, of course.

HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 28, 2007 5:27 am (#747 of 1297)
Edited Apr 28, 2007 6:32 am

. . .his greatest strength is his greatest weakness type thing? Phelim

Actually, Phelim, that is what makes the Harrycrux idea so neat. You summed it up in a nutshell.

The suspicion arises from the fact that Big V was inside Nagini, hence, the thought that Nagini is a Horcrux. But remember that Harry also saw through the snake's eyes. There is a parallel there. I suppose it's not out of the realm of possibility that both Harry and Nagini are Horcruxes.

I also think Big V knows and found out at some point in the MoM battle. Perhaps when he was able to "occupy" Harry, albeit, briefly. He also made a brief appearance when Harry was in DD's office. I think he needed to confirm it afterward.

frogface, the fact that we don't have all of the Horcrux-making info. leaves this idea viable. If the specific method had been given (including possible side effects), it would either prove or disprove the theory. The very absence of specific instructions makes me suspicious. I know JKR didn't forget.

EDIT: I knew I forgot something. Phelim, I mentioned a while back that Harry was able to destroy the diary without obvious damage to himself. (Minus the fang.) Specifically, no "charred hand" type results, like DD. I wondered if Harry is a Horcrux, this may enable him to get past any charms/spells and destroy the Horcruxes, since he carries a bit of Big V in himself, which could nullify such protections and give him command over the Horcrux bit.

Luna Logic - Apr 28, 2007 6:28 am (#748 of 1297)

The Harry-is-a Horcrux theory is a very logical theory, specially in the post of HH11 just above.

But... if I rely now on my feeling of reader of the books, books which are telling a story under the lines, a story or what I could call a "JKR philosophy"...

that feeling does not lead me to think that Harry (or even Harry’s scar) is a Horcrux.

HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 28, 2007 7:01 am (#749 of 1297)
Edited Apr 28, 2007 8:12 am

There is a big underlying theme about choices.

Big V is now confronted with a choice - either kill Harry and lose a much treasured part of himself; or keep him alive, thus ensuring a part of him will remain (at least until he figures out how to get it back). So, what is greater: Big V's fear of Harry/the prophecy or losing a bit of himself and the magic he believes is entwined in each valuable bit of himself.

On the other hand, we have Harry. What will happen when he learns of it? (Bear with me Choices, you know this is speculative, lol). I venture to guess it will play out a bit better than when he overheard the grownups with the extendable ears in St. Mungo's (OotP). I still think that was a precursor. We know that Harry is valiant. He would have no problem collecting the Horcruxes and jumping through the veil - something Big V does not have the capacity to understand.

Now, you can see why I thought Phelim's comment was so accurate: Big V's greatest strength is his greatest weakness.

So, we have Big V - ultimately selfish and we have Harry, compassionate and giving. There is another factor, though. Inasmuch as Big V cannot understand/see Harry's viewpoint, Harry can see Big V's (he almost felt sorry for him to the extent that DD asked him so). Perhaps, having Lily's eyes, as it was pointed out very long ago on this thread (not by me), is more that Harry sees the good in people the way Lily did, rather than just the green.

Solitaire - Apr 28, 2007 10:11 am (#750 of 1297)

always took the phrase "in essence divided" was a clue to Nagini being a Horcrux

I suppose it could refer to Voldemort and Nagini being "in essence divided," although I've always thought it referred to Harry and Voldemort. Hm ...

Solitaire

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Soul Search - Apr 28, 2007 10:49 am (#751 of 1297)

Solitaire, I have to agree that "in essence divided" was a reference to Harry.

Voldemort had been occupying Nagini. He (must have) occupied her mind then Apparated into the Ministry.

Time had passed since Nagini was discovered and Arthur attacked. The portraits had alerted the Ministry, so it wasn't exactly safe to be there.

Voldemort/Nagini would have Disapparated away soon after the attack. And Voldemort would remove his mind from Nagini shortly afterward.

Given that Voldemort and Nagini are far away, and Voldemort is no longer occupying her, what is the instrument reporting?

Harry, Ron, McGonagall, and Dumbledore were in the office. Harry had just had a vision from the viewpoint through the eyes of a snake. Dumbledore had suspicions, he asked Harry about viewpoint, but needed to confirm them. That is what the instrument did. It confirmed to Dumbledore his suspicions about Harry and Voldemort.

xray - Apr 28, 2007 10:59 am (#752 of 1297)
Edited Apr 28, 2007 12:05 pm

I always took the in essence divided to reflect Voldemort's ability to possess someone while still remaining in his own body. He possessed Nagini at the time of the dream and since Harry and Voldemort were connected, Harry was able to see what Voldemort saw, albeit while he was possessing Nagini.

I don't believe it has anything to do with the Horcrux at all.

Like frogface, I think the reasoning against Harry being a Horcrux is too strong.

Why would Voldemort try to create a Horcrux from Harry in the first place?

How could it be accidental? Magic requires intent.

If Harry was protected by Lily's spell from Voldemort touching him, wouldn't that include Voldemort's soul? It's part of Voldemort and couldn't touch Harry, even accidentally.

If Harry was an accidental Horcrux, does Voldemort know? If he knows, then why was he trying to kill Harry? If he doesn't know, then what is his "seventh" Horcrux? It stands to reason that Voldemort would still continue with his attempt to create (what he thinks) his 6th and final Horcrux.

Too many guesses are being made at how a Horcrux is created in the first place. We know it requires a spell separate from the killing spell. Logic dictates that first the soul is split, 2nd the fragmented portion is encased inside of an object to create a Horcrux. In order for Harry to be a Horcrux, one MUST assume that the encasement spell is cast before the killing spell, which makes no sense to me.

If the encasement spell is cast before the killing spell, we would have seen it via Priori Incantatem. We did not. Other arguments state it was cast before he got to the house so we couldn't have seen it. If so, then how does the spell, once cast, know to skip over two deaths (James and Lily) before getting to Harry?

If Harry was intended to be a Horcrux, Rowling probably would have left more appropriate clues, IMO. For instance, a bit more of a description on how exactly a Horcrux is created giving the reader the ability to theorize based on *those* clues rather than wild guesses that Harry could be a Horcrux.

IMO, Harry is not and cannot possibly be a Horcrux. (Neither is his scar.)

I think the 6th and final Horcrux is Lord Voldemort's own wand. I don't think it's Nagini the snake.

TheSaint - Apr 28, 2007 11:12 am (#753 of 1297)
Edited Apr 28, 2007 12:13 pm

1. Why would Voldemort try to create a Horcrux from Harry in the first place? What a better way to insure the 'Chosen One' cannot defeat you...he has to die in order to do it and he can't kill you if he is dead.

How could it be accidental? Magic requires intent. If Voldemort intended to make a Horcrux with Harry's death, then intent was already there. The question would be, How did the soul bit enter Harry?

If Harry was protected by Lily's spell from Voldemort touching him, wouldn't that include Voldemort's soul? It's part of Voldemort and couldn't touch Harry, even accidentally. Wouldn't that include his powers also...or any part of him?

If Harry was an accidental Horcrux, does Voldemort know? If he knows, then why was he trying to kill Harry? If he doesn't know, then what is his "seventh" Horcrux? It stands to reason that Voldemort would still continue with his attempt to create (what he thinks) his 6th and final Horcrux. ummmm...Nagini?

Too many guesses are being made at how a Horcrux is created in the first place. We know it requires a spell separate from the killing spell. Logic dictates that first the soul is split, 2nd the fragmented portion is encased inside of an object to create a Horcrux. In order for Harry to be a Horcrux, one MUST assume that the encasement spell is cast before the killing spell, which makes no sense to me. If the encasement spell is cast before the killing spell, we would have seen it via Priori Incantatem. We did not. Other arguments state it was cast before he got to the house so we couldn't have seen it. If so, then how does the spell, once cast, know to skip over two deaths (James and Lily) before getting to Harry?

OR...he was not the one that encased it there. How many others have we speculated may have been present at Godric's Hollow? A certain questionable wicked man comes to mind...who may or may not be a deep undercover agent.

JMTK

Choices - Apr 28, 2007 11:48 am (#754 of 1297)
Edited Apr 28, 2007 1:15 pm

XRay - "I think the 6th and final Horcrux is Lord Voldemort's own wand. I don't think it's Nagini the snake."

Mercy, you had me up to this point. I was nodding my head and agreeing (for the most part) with your argument, but then you brought up the wand and lost me. I see not one shred of evidence, not one hint, that Voldemort's wand is a Horcrux. Dumbledore makes a very logical argument for Nagini being a Horcrux and I have to agree with Dumbledore.

"In essence divided" - to me, this has always meant that because Harry and Voldemort were both seeing through Nagini's eyes, Dumbledore wanted to be sure that Voldemort was not possessing Harry also. The smoke snakes that came out of the little machine divided/separated and showed Dumbledore that Voldemort and Harry were separate - Harry was a "Voldemort Free Zone" - at least as far as Voldemort possessing Harry.

Whether or not Harry is a Horcrux is a fascinating debate. As is typical with JKR's writing, she has given us excellent clues for arguments for both sides that can be based on canon and make logical sense. My belief that Harry is NOT a Horcrux comes down to this.....I just do not want Harry to be a Horcrux! Bottom line, end of story. I find the argument against his being one a wee bit more logical and acceptable to me. I tend to think if he is one, it will complicate the story and I think Harry has enough to do in book 7 without having to deal with being a Horcrux. Dumbledore is another reason I don't think Harry is a Horcrux. My faith in Dumbledore and his wisdom would be totally shattered if he had failed to notice that Harry is a Horcrux or to tell Harry about it. You can't tell me that Dumbledore did not know his death was rapidly approaching - he would not have gone without preparing Harry for dealing with being a Horcrux. I could go on, but that basically is my feeling. This is far too long a post for me. Brevity is not only the soul of wit, but my usual posting style. :-)

HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 28, 2007 12:22 pm (#755 of 1297)
Edited Apr 28, 2007 1:22 pm

Mercy, you had me up to this point. Choices LOL.

Whether or not Harry is a Horcrux is a fascinating debate. . .I just do not want Harry to be a Horcrux! Choices

I wholeheartedly agree on both points, Choices. I've really enjoyed the brain teasers and really do hope I'm wrong about Harry and his headaches.

Brevity is not only the soul of wit. . .

Well, I'm in trouble there.

Choices - Apr 28, 2007 12:25 pm (#756 of 1297)
Edited Apr 28, 2007 1:30 pm

I love this thread - Horcruxes are really so interesting and fun to discuss. This is my favorite topic, although when book 7 comes out I may very well be eating mounds of crow. JKR has fooled me before and she could do it again. Until then, I staunchly maintain that Harry is not a Horcrux while keeping my plate and spoon handy. LOL

Magic Words - Apr 28, 2007 1:03 pm (#757 of 1297)

I tend to think if he is one, it will complicate the story ~Choices

But that's the whole point!

Also, magic does not require intent. We learn in Harry's first Charms class in PS/SS that it's very important to pronounce everything properly lest you end up lying on the floor with a buffalo on your chest. Magic can happen accidentally, and not just in the form of explosions.

PatPat - Apr 28, 2007 3:46 pm (#758 of 1297)

Dumbledore is another reason I don't think Harry is a Horcrux. My faith in Dumbledore and his wisdom would be totally shattered if he had failed to notice that Harry is a Horcrux or to tell Harry about it. You can't tell me that Dumbledore did not know his death was rapidly approaching - he would not have gone without preparing Harry for dealing with being a Horcrux. Choices

YES!! My thoughts exactly, Choices. I cannot and will not believe (until JKR tells me differently in DH) that Dumbledore would have hidden such an important piece of information from Harry. He learned his lesson about that in OotP. Even if he was trying to protect Harry, Dumbledore KNEW that it was Harry's destiny to vanquish Voldemort. Isn't it better for Harry to hear such a horrible thing from his most trusted friend, advisor, and mentor than to find out some other way when it may be too late? The evidence is there that Dumbledore knew his time was limited, hence his rush to teach Harry everything possible he may need to defeat the Dark Lord. This would be a rather large piece of information to leave out and, IMO, would seriously undermine the character that JKR has painted for us.

And, to me, it is impossible that the thought that Harry is a Horcrux has never occurred to Dumbledore. If WE have noticed the evidence pointing that way, then surely the most clever and powerful wizard of all time must have. If he dismissed this possibility, he must have had a reason.

Maybe I'm being stubborn, but, if Harry turns out to be a Horcrux, JKR will have A LOT of explaining to do about why Dumbledore either kept this information from Harry or did not know.

vega ome - Apr 28, 2007 6:47 pm (#759 of 1297)

Howdy Choices,

I do not think Harry is a Horcrux. Lilly used her death in combination with ancient magic to protect Harry. Perhaps DD used his death in combination with ancient magic to protect Harry from Snape or LV again.

My apologies for the confusion. I'm confused myself as there are excellent arguments on both sides. I don’t think Harry is a Horcrux but I do think DD used his death for something. Logic leads me to believe that its something that will protect Harry from Snape or LV. I do not think DD needed a wand to do magic.

I think Dobby will be useful in finding at least one other Horcrux. He spent much time with the Malfoys and may know something without even knowing it. I think Harry will get around to asking him the right questions. Dobby has helped him before and I think he will do it again.

v/r

Mike

Choices - Apr 29, 2007 10:19 am (#760 of 1297)
Edited Apr 29, 2007 11:22 am

Thanks for clarifying that, Vega Ome.

I am wondering if Dumbledore's death can in any way offer protection to Harry. When Lily died for Harry, she actually stood in the way, blocking the AK meant for Harry with her own body. When Dumbledore was killed, he did not die to protect Harry - he was killed on Voldemort's order. Voldemort had given Draco the mission of killing Dumbledore and when Draco failed, Snape took over and did the deed. Harry was safely frozen under the Invisibility Cloak out of the way. Harry was not the target, so Dumbledore did not die to save Harry.

I believe it is actually Snape who will sacrifice himself to protect Harry from Voldemort, and thus give Harry the chance to vanquish Voldemort.

xray - Apr 29, 2007 10:30 am (#761 of 1297)
Edited Apr 29, 2007 11:33 am

Mercy, you had me up to this point. I was nodding my head and agreeing (for the most part) with your argument, but then you brought up the wand and lost me. I see not one shred of evidence, not one hint, that Voldemort's wand is a Horcrux. Dumbledore makes a very logical argument for Nagini being a Horcrux and I have to agree with Dumbledore. - Choices

Well I'll agree it's a long shot but there is definitely evidence to support it. Here's my reasoning:

Dumbledore suspected Nagini although it was inadvisable to use a living creature as a Horcrux.

Voldemort is not stupid and I doubt he'd use a living creature because it will die. His plan is to live forever, and so must his Horcruxes. Dumbledore states that Voldemort was one Horcrux short the night he went to kill Harry. He suggests Nagini, but the door is wide open for him to be wrong and for Harry to figure it out. If Voldemort created his final Horcrux using Frank's death, he'd need something (besides Nagini) to turn into a Horcrux; something (using Dumbledore's criteria) he always keeps close to him, he's fond of it, and has control. His very own wand fits perfectly. And we didn't see the Horcrux spell via Priori Incantatem because he would have had to use another wand to create it, presumably Wormtail's or Bertha Jorkins'.

Here's just a little bit more: He seems to have reserved the process of making Horcruxes for particularly significant deaths. Then he goes on to talk about the "importance" of Nagini, how she underlies the Slytherin connection. The only problem is, Nagini isn't dying. The old Muggle died. How was a mere Muggle's death significant? Voldemort HATED Muggles, so an common Muggle death would be significant.

The clue is there and best of all it's not too difficult for Harry to figure out.

It's not perfect but it's my guess.

p.s. I too am prepared to eat crow if I'm wrong.

HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 29, 2007 11:38 am (#762 of 1297)
Edited Apr 29, 2007 12:40 pm

Choices, I agree on your point regarding DD's murder. To further it, JKR separated Lily's death from James's because James was going to die anyway. Lily was told to step aside and would have been spared. In comparison, DD was going to die. Someone on that tower was going to AK him. I suppose you could read into details such as the fact that he froze Harry instead of retrieving his wand but the fact of the matter is that he was a target and Lily was not.

xray, regarding the wand Horcrux idea: The only thing I can add is that JKR made a comment regarding a theory that the Sorting Hat was a Horcrux. Her response was something in the light of, 'Why would anyone choose to make a Horcrux out of something that is out there in front of everyone like that?' Very obviously, I'm paraphrasing but you get the gist of it. Thus far, Big V was careful to keep the diary a secret, entrusting it to someone, and after that didn't work out, the locket was certainly hidden in a more remote place. I simply cannot see him going in the reverse direction toward carelessness with such a thing as a Horcrux.

frogface - Apr 29, 2007 12:17 pm (#763 of 1297)

I don't think Snape placing himself in front of Harry would protect Harry the way it did when Lily died for him. For it to work like that I think its has to be an act of Love. JM2K but that’s always how I've looked at it.

Choices - Apr 29, 2007 2:10 pm (#764 of 1297)
Edited Apr 29, 2007 3:11 pm

The old Muggle had worked for Tom Riddle's family - killing him would be severing the last connection to his father and grandparents. That murder might have been significant enough for Voldemort. I agree with HH about the wand - it would be far to "out there" to be safe. Nagini is very attached to Voldemort and he to her, plus he has a very unusual amount of control over her - more so than even a Parselmouth would have. I have to go with Nagini as the more likely Horcrux.

Just suppose that the wand is a Horcrux.....how in the world would Harry go about getting it away from Voldemort so that it could be destroyed? Then what would Voldemort use to fight Harry in the big show down? Wandless magic is great and all, but I do not think it works for everything.

xray - Apr 29, 2007 2:56 pm (#765 of 1297)

Just suppose that the wand is a Horcrux.....how in the world would Harry go about getting it away from Voldemort so that it could be destroyed? Then what would Voldemort use to fight Harry in the big show down? - Choices

Ahhh! But that's part of the beauty of it being the wand. That's how Wormtail's wizard debt comes into play; he destroys the wand and dies in the process (during the big showdown).

Choices - Apr 29, 2007 3:44 pm (#766 of 1297)

OK, thanks for explaining that. Let's see - Harry and Voldemort are facing each other, Voldemort draws first and comes out empty handed. Harry smiles a chilling smile while drawing his wand and pointing it at Voldemort. Voldemort looks sort of embarrassed, not to mention unprepared. "Drat that Wormtail. I let him use my wand a couple of times and he never remembers to put it back where he found it. Don't move Harry, I'll be back in a minute. (Exits left, shouting) Wormtail! If you're not dead already, I'm going to kill you!"

Hmmmm....I suppose that would work.

xray - Apr 29, 2007 4:56 pm (#767 of 1297)
Edited Apr 29, 2007 6:07 pm

LOL!

No not at all what I had in mind. More like... Harry knows he's got to figure out the last Horcrux but is confronted by Voldemort, Wormtail in tow. Harry's avoiding him as much as he can (like Dumbledore in OotP). Voldemort gets Harry cornered then Wormtail pounces, grabs his wand, and breaks it.* Wormtail dies. In the course of breaking it Harry sees that it was, indeed his final Horcrux then proceeds to take down Voldemort, albeit with trouble. Even without his wand Voldemort is too powerful. Snape arrives (cavalry!) and stuns Voldemort. Dementors arrive and suck out his soul.

Ok I'm not Rowling and I don't pretend to know what's going to happen. I just like my theory that Voldemort's wand is a Horcrux because *I* came up with it on my own. I just like it.

I hope I'm wrong though because I want Rowling to surprise me and if you can guess what's going to happen the book isn't nearly as good as if you couldn't guess.

* ETA: That or Voldemort goes to cast a spell and his wand turns into a rubber chicken (Wormtail switched it out!). Hee!

Eroej Kab - Apr 30, 2007 10:05 am (#768 of 1297)

Can anyone help with this?

There seems to be an accepted notion that the Horcruxes are items tethering the soul pieces to the earth.

What is the basis for this tethering concept that seems so widely accepted? Is it in canon?

Please help!

Choices - Apr 30, 2007 10:24 am (#769 of 1297)
Edited Apr 30, 2007 11:56 am

LOL XRay, that makes for a very entertaining scene. I sort of like it! It made me chuckle. I guess we will just have to wait and see if it plays out like that. :-)

Eroej Kab, I think rereading the Horcrux chapter in HBP will give you a good idea of how Horcruxes work. Basically, a wizard murders someone which causes his soul to tear - he uses the Horcrux spell to remove that bit of soul and hide it in an object - he hides that object or Horcrux in a very well protected place to keep it safe and then if he is killed, he will not completely die. The Horcrux causes his main soul, the one remaining in his body, to stay here on earth. His body may die, but his soul bit will go away and hide until it can find another body, just as Voldemort did. Voldemort's main soul, being tethered to this earth by his Horcruxes, flew off to hide in a forest. He inhabited small creatures until such time as he could go through a rebirthing ceremony and regain a human body. He didn't use up his Horcruxes, he still has his main soul and all his Horcruxes are still safely hidden (all except those that have been found and destroyed by Harry and Dumbledore). His main soul is just residing now in Voldemort's new body.

Magic Words - Apr 30, 2007 11:11 am (#770 of 1297)

Then what would Voldemort use to fight Harry in the big show down? Wandless magic is great and all, but I do not think it works for everything. ~Choices

The funny thing is, if you take the US book cover illustration as fact, Harry and Voldemort are both in fact wandless when they face off.

Choices - Apr 30, 2007 6:02 pm (#771 of 1297)

Do we know that what is depicted on the cover is the actual final showdown? Is the scene captioned, "Final Showdown"? Has JKR stated that is what it is? I will be very surprised if Harry and Voldemort face-off without wands. If they do, I will heap another helping of crow onto my plate. LOL

mona amon - Apr 30, 2007 6:30 pm (#772 of 1297)
Edited Apr 30, 2007 7:33 pm

Choices and Xray, your Harry -Voldemort face off scenarios had me RollingOFL!!

Eroej Kab - May 1, 2007 6:40 am (#773 of 1297)

OK, thanks for that. I'll have to re-read that stuff to understand the "tethering" details.

Do the books differentiate the different pieces of the soul - the main one in the body and the lesser ones in the Horcruxes? If they are all equal, why aren't the ones, released upon destruction of the Horcruxes, tethered to the earth as well? Why aren't there other little Vapormorts running around?

MickeyCee3948 - May 1, 2007 6:49 am (#774 of 1297)
Edited May 1, 2007 7:50 am

Eroej Kab They would have to have something or someone to attach too in order to remain tethered or tied to the earth. When they are released they pass on to the other side.

We are never told how the soul splits but in my opinion it is the part of the soul which has to do with the specific murder used to create the Horcrux that is split off.

Mickey

Magic Words - May 1, 2007 8:58 am (#775 of 1297)

Choices, it may not be the final showdown, but I have trouble thinking of what else it could be. Besides, I don't think Harry and Voldemort are more likely to both be without wands during a random encounter than during the final showdown. I haven't the foggiest idea what Jo has come up with, but it would make sense for her to get rid of their wands in some way in order to explain why the outcome of the battle doesn't come down to which is quicker with an AK, stunner, or whatever spells they can still use against each other.

Besides, they're both looking at something off the right side of the cover. What is it????

haymoni - May 1, 2007 9:24 am (#776 of 1297)

It's "the hand of the Other" - Peter!

Choices - May 1, 2007 12:33 pm (#777 of 1297)

Mickey - "When they are released they pass on to the other side."

I have to disagree with that idea. I think when a Horcrux is destroyed, the soul bit within is also destroyed. They aren't all just over in the "great beyond" waiting for the rest of Voldemort's soul to join them. What is so terribly evil about a Horcrux, aside from committing murder and splitting your soul, is that parts of your soul are destroyed - gone for good - making the one who created that Horcrux less and less human with each Horcrux that is destroyed.

MickeyCee3948 - May 1, 2007 3:13 pm (#778 of 1297)

Choices - But we have canon that says the Item the Horcrux is stored in is not destroyed. The diary in CoS was not destroyed, and the ring was not destroyed when Dumbledore destroyed that Horcrux (although it almost killed him). When I said the soul bit goes to the other side I meant it was destroyed. Destroyed and going to the other side, I equate to the same thing.

Magic Words - Could the final battle almost be over and Tom is falling beyond the Veil while Harry is reaching for the final Horcrux to send beyond the Veil with Tom. JM2K's

Mickey

Choices - May 1, 2007 4:29 pm (#779 of 1297)
Edited May 1, 2007 5:37 pm

Mickey, I did not mean that the object (that is a Horcrux) is destroyed, I mean that the object is no longer a Horcrux. The ring, diary, cup, locket, etc. is still a ring, diary, cup, locket, etc. but it is no longer a Horcrux and the soul bit is destroyed, gone forever.

MickeyCee3948 - May 1, 2007 5:04 pm (#780 of 1297)

Exactly my sentiments also. Glad we agree on that.

Mickey

me and my shadow 813 - May 3, 2007 10:24 am (#781 of 1297)

I agree with Magic Words. The final showdown will not be with wands, in my opinion. Why else go through all that Priori Incantatem? I don't think it was *only* to see the prior murder victims come out of Vold's wand. That could have been done without DD explaining that the two wands will not work against each other. To me, we are being set up to watch a final confrontation between two souls who are entwined, yet "in essence divided".

Will Harry kill Vold? It says a lot for Vold's tragic fate that if Harry does contain part of his soul he'll want to kill Harry anyway. I don't think that will be the case with Harry.

MickeyCee3948 - May 3, 2007 3:35 pm (#782 of 1297)

What if Harry does not have to give up part of his soul in the killing of Tom. If he can figure out to make a Horcrux, he could use the part of Tom's soul which is in him to make his own Horcrux and send it with Tom beyond the Veil. Harry’s soul would still be complete.

Mickey

Choices - May 3, 2007 5:16 pm (#783 of 1297)

That gave me an interesting thought. If a wizard can split his soul and then remove the piece and make it into a Horcrux, why couldn't Dumbledore (if he thought Harry did have a piece of Voldemort's soul in him) simply teach Harry the Horcrux spell and let Harry remove Voldemort's soul bit and then destroy it? Could that work?

TheSaint - May 3, 2007 9:53 pm (#784 of 1297)

Great thought Choices! Select the piece of soul you want, perform the spell and destroy it. Why not?

Maybe it is only four little words... Blubber, Nitwit, Oddment....

HungarianHorntail11 - May 4, 2007 7:59 am (#785 of 1297)

Et tu, Choices??

That is a great thought!

Choices - May 4, 2007 10:11 am (#786 of 1297)

I read a really interesting idea on the meaning of those four odd words Dumbledore spoke - nitwit, oddment, blubber and tweak.. I'll post it on the "Not Covered in Other Threads" thread.

Jenniffler - May 4, 2007 10:15 am (#787 of 1297)

In my opinion, Horcruxes, as a supreme evil are like a poison or a disease. Harry learned in Gollipott's third law in potions from Slughorn. To cure a victim, the remedy needs to be stronger than the combined poisons it is countering. Under the same thought, vanquishing a dark wizard like Voldemort needs to contain elements of good magic, deeds or whatever Harry can pull out of his hat that equal more than those pesky remaining Horcruxes.

In each encounter with Voldemort, we have seen examples of Harry overpowering him, but barely and within inches of Harry's own life. Especially in the example of the Riddle diary, Harry's heroic determination to save Ginny, or his "saving people thing," is key to the defeat of diary Tom. I suspect but have no evidence of Dumbledore's heroic actions in destroying the ring except his willingness to sacrifice his hand and possibly his life.

In short, if the future Horcrux encounters are in depth and complicated, Harry's mettle will be tested to the maximum, but he will triumph nonetheless.

Apologies if I accidentally usurped someone's theory. In that case, will gladly jump to your side of the fence in defence of whoever gave me the idea to begin with.

me and my shadow 813 - May 4, 2007 12:51 pm (#788 of 1297)

To me the reason DD wouldn't teach Harry to extract the bit of Vold's soul is because Harry is meant to purify and vanquish the Dark by using Love, not a Horcrux spell.

haymoni - May 5, 2007 5:04 am (#789 of 1297)

One would think that the soul bit would have perished long ago then. Voldy could barely be with Harry a few short moments during the MOM battle.

MickeyCee3948 - May 5, 2007 7:07 pm (#790 of 1297)

I think that during his short moment inside of Harry he was alerted that Harry had one of Tom's soul bit inside of him. Probably why he ordered all DEs to back off of Harry during HBP.

I think we have seen DD tell Harry that when the time comes he must do whatever is required to vanquish Tom from the wizarding world. Whatever!

Mickey

Choices - May 6, 2007 10:46 am (#791 of 1297)

Mickey - "I think we have seen DD tell Harry that when the time comes he must do whatever is required to vanquish Tom from the wizarding world. Whatever!"

I don't recall any such instructions by Dumbledore. Can you provide quotes or where I can find it?

MickeyCee3948 - May 6, 2007 3:43 pm (#792 of 1297)

They weren't so much instructions as concurring with what Harry said he would do. In HBP when Harry says he will kill Tom if he has the chance. DD concurs and said something to the effect "Spoken like your father's son. He would be proud". I don't have my book handy but the quote was very similar to that. There are also other instances I will look up and get back to you with them. If that isn't DD condoning and agreeing with Harry's conclusion what is it?

I not trying to argue about it just that I believe that Harry was been led to this point to believe that the evil that Tom has done and will do if he is not stopped will affect all of his friends and classmates. He believes that only he can rid the magical world of Tom and I don't see anyway around him not having to kill Tom.

If it involves making a Horcrux of the portion of his body which belongs to Tom when he is finishing off Tom, then I believe the wizarding world and Harry will be able to find adequate justification for such actions dang the moral implications. What moral implications are there if he(can stop the murder and destruction of his friends and the world he loves and) doesn't use it.

Mickey

Choices - May 6, 2007 6:08 pm (#793 of 1297)

I think Dumbledore encourages Harry and has bent over backwards to help prepare Harry for his confrontation (final) with Voldemort, I just don't remember Dumbledore blatantly telling Harry repeatedly that he has to fight and kill Voldemort to save the Wizard World.

haymoni - May 6, 2007 6:11 pm (#794 of 1297)

He asks Harry in HBP how he would feel about Voldy if he didn't know about The Prophecy.

Harry thinks about his parents and all the other grief that Voldy has caused and he says that he would want Voldy gone.

I think that is as close as it comes. Dumbledore lets Harry come to his own conclusion.

Solitaire - May 6, 2007 8:16 pm (#795 of 1297)
Edited May 6, 2007 9:22 pm

I just don't remember Dumbledore blatantly telling Harry repeatedly that he has to fight and kill Voldemort to save the Wizard World.

At the end of Chapter 37 of OotP, after Harry has heard the Prophecy, we read the following:

"So," said Harry, dredging up the words from what felt like a deep well of despair inside him, "so does that mean that ... that one of us has got to kill the other one ... in the end?"

"Yes," said Dumbledore.

That appears to me to be a fairly straightforward answer. It isn't a command to kill Voldemort, exactly ... but Harry knows what will continue to happen in the Wizarding World if he is the one to die. The only way I can see Voldemort dying without actually being killed is if Harry destroys all of the Horcruxes, and what's left of Voldy's soul within him is too weak to keep him going. Since it has been so fragmented, I suppose it is possible that once all of the things tethering him to this earth (the Horcruxes) are destroyed, there will be nothing to keep him here.

Solitaire

mona amon - May 7, 2007 2:47 am (#796 of 1297)
Edited May 7, 2007 3:48 am

I not trying to argue about it just that I believe that Harry was been led to this point to believe that the evil that Tom has done and will do if he is not stopped will affect all of his friends and classmates. He believes that only he can rid the magical world of Tom and I don't see anyway around him not having to kill Tom. (Mickey)

I agree with Mickey. Here's another quote from the Horcruxes chapter of HBP.

"It all comes to the same thing doesn't it? I’ve got to try and kill him, or- "

"Got to?' said Dumbledore, "Of course you've got to!...." And then proceeds to give the reasons why Harry has 'got to' do it.

Solitaire - May 7, 2007 6:07 am (#797 of 1297)

To go back to the idea I mentioned in my previous post ...

On the night Voldemort attempted to AK Harry, what if the AK killed him? Is it possible that the remnant of soul left in Voldemort was destroyed that night? What if it was, and all that has tethered him to earth these last 16 years are the remaining Horcruxes?

I realize Voldemort has a new body, but what it if is soul-less? What if it was only able to be reborn/resurrected because of the Horcruxes? If this were to be the case, then Harry would only need to find the remaining Horcruxes and destroy them. And if HE is the final Horcrux ... will he allow himself to be killed? My apologies if this has been discussed. I've missed a lot of the discussion during this school year. If this has already been addressed and answered, please point me to the post. Thanks.

Solitaire

mona amon - May 7, 2007 7:32 am (#798 of 1297)

Solitaire, I don't know whether your point has been discussed or not as I can't remember anything more than about ten posts back But my own view is that no, he would not have lost that remaining bit of soul, because the Horcruxes would have kept it earth bound. In other words the AK destroyed his body, but not his (fragment of) soul.

In fact I think 'Vapormort' was nothing more than this soul bit, roaming around and possessing other creatures when it could.

He used a spell to create a new body. I don't think that had anything to do with the Horcruxes.

Choices - May 7, 2007 8:56 am (#799 of 1297)

Mona Amon, I agree with you. Voldemort himself tells us that his main soul bit survived the rebounding AK and existed in that forest until such time as he could regain a body.

gankomon - May 15, 2007 9:59 am (#800 of 1297)
Edited May 15, 2007 11:00 am

Solitaire,

Fascinating idea. However, I must agree with Choices and mona amon. It would seem that since the soul was divided ("...but in essence divided?"), that the failed curse did not actually destroy the soul fragment. Apparently the killing curse will fail if the soul is not complete, as it kills the individual, and a person without a complete soul cannot be entirely killed.

I do not have the precise quotation, but I seem to recall Dumbledore telling Harry in Book Six that the last piece of soul was the one that spent a spectral existence all those years after the failed curse destroyed his body. And I also seem to recall in that same discussion Dumbledore telling Harry that the piece that still resides in Voldemort's body would be the last one that anyone trying to kill Voldemort must destroy. There is also Voldemort's own testimony, as Choices so aptly reminded us. Thus we are still left with four Horcruxes, assuming that Dumbledore was correct in his analysis.

Regards,

gankomon

------------------

I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.

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gankomon - May 16, 2007 10:13 am (#801 of 1297)

Vox Gerbilis posted the following theory on Horcruxes over on the Book Seven Predictions thread, and as I found the suggestion intriguing, I am responding to it here.

Vox Gerbilis wrote: You have pointed out one of the greatest weaknesses in the accidental scar-Horcrux theory, but I'm surmising that LV ripped his soul by murdering Lily, and somehow the fragment lingered long enough to get deposited in Harry. Not a watertight surmise, I admit, but the best I can do.

My response is that based on our knowledge of the Horcrux curse, it takes not merely a murder but also a spell to create the Horcrux and an object to contain the fragment of soul thus ripped from the main body.

Dumbledore theorized that Voldemort was one Horcrux shy of his goal of seven when he entered the Potters' house. Therefore, we must assume that he had everything in readiness to create that final Horcrux. Creating that last Horcrux with the death of James or Lily is possible, but I do not believe that he did so for the following reasons:

1. James was apparently not considered significant enough a kill to create the final Horcrux. His killing was simply the sweeping away of an obstacle to Voldemort's real target. it is unlikely therefore that Voldemort would create the last Horcrux with James' death when he intended to use Harry for that purpose.

2. Voldemort did not intend to kill Lily. He would have let her live, had she but stepped out of the way. Therefore, I find it unlikely that he would create the final Horcrux with Lily's murder, since he did not plan to kill her and it would therefore follow that he would not have the Horcrux spell ready for her death. Harry was intended to provide the murder that would create the last Horcrux, and of course that curse didn't actually kill anyone, thus, again according to Slughorn's and Dumbledore's evidence, no Horcrux could be created.

My most powerful piece of evidence is simply that according to Dumbledore, Harry was the intended object of the last Horcrux. Believing that nothing could stop the killing curse, why would Voldemort use his last Horcrux on less significant deaths when he could create it with an immensely significant one- Harry? Voldemort likes to collect objects of power for his Horcruxes and use significant deaths to create them. Thus, I do not think that Lily or James' deaths became the occasion of the final Horcrux, since Voldemort did not know that Lily's sacrifice would cause the killing curse to fail. Thinking he had removed all obstacles, Voldemort would then turn the killing curse on Harry, with the Horcrux spell and object ready.

However, this brings up a new point. if he had an object ready to become a Horcrux holder at Godric's Hollow with him, what was it and what happened to it?

Regards,

gankomon

-------------------

I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.

Mrs Brisbee - May 16, 2007 10:33 am (#802 of 1297)
Edited May 16, 2007 11:35 am

Gankomon, in the case of Harry being an accidental Horcrux, it's just that, accidental. Voldemort didn't choose to have it happen, and he didn't choose whose murder or which bit of soul was involved. Dumbledore himself said that transferring a bit of himself into Harry was not something he intended to do. We have no idea what the object he took to Godric's Hollow was or what happened to it. It seems not to have been Nagini.

I do agree with you generally that Voldemort would have wanted any Horcrux he made to have used Harry's murder. If he made Nagini his last Horcrux, it makes sense that he was originally intending to do so with Harry's murder right after his rebirthing. If Dumbledore is correct, it seems he changed his plan after Harry escaped, and used some other person's murder to make the Horcrux. It seems odd, but maybe he was desperate to get to Lucky Seven (since he wouldn't know about Harry-Is-A-Horcrux yet, or about the destruction of the Diary).

me and my shadow 813 - May 16, 2007 4:28 pm (#803 of 1297)

gankomon wrote: However, this brings up a new point. if he had an object ready to become a Horcrux holder at Godric's Hollow with him, what was it and what happened to it?

It's been speculated by several posters that Godric's Sword was the intended object, having been at the Potter house, but was retrieved and taken to safety by --someone--. As far as I know, a sword softens but doesn't necessarily completely liquefy when put into the fire.

MickeyCee3948 - May 16, 2007 4:28 pm (#804 of 1297)
Edited May 16, 2007 5:33 pm

Tom probably knew about the diary. We have no canon on when he came into the information but surely Wormtail would do anything to bring Malfoy down a notch or two in Tom's eyes and that sure occurred.

I disagree Mrs Brisbee as I believe Tom DID intend for Harry to be the last Horcrux. I doubt if the murder's of James or Lily would have been important enough in Tom's eyes. He WANTED Harry (the one who could destroy him) to be the one that would become his last Horcrux. A slap at Dumbledore as much as anything else for DD had tried to save and protect James, Lily and Harry.

I am afraid that Tom has with DD's death given up on 7 Horcruxes. He already knows that the diary is gone. He also knows (from word of mouth)that DD has sustained a serious burn an injury to his hand. It probably occurred to him that the injury was caused by the curses he had put on the ring.

I have sat here for two years and none of the arguments of the non-believers out there have presented me with evidence that Harry is not a Horcrux.

Dumbledore told Harry it was Nagini only to inform Harry that a living object could be used as a Horcrux . The argument that Dumbledore has finally told Harry everything at the end of HBP does not hold water. He also told Harry at the end of OotP that he had revealed all of his information and that was an out and out mis-statement. DD just didn't have the stomach with everything else he had dumped on him in HBP to tell Harry the WHOLE truth.

Harry needs the help of RH&G to help him deal with that bit of news. But I believe that DD's portrait will confirm the truth to Harry after he has worked it out for himself.

Mickey

P.S. Do any of you really believe that Tom would have let Lily live? Her stepping aside would have only meant that she would have seen her son die before he AK’d her. Tom could care less about one murder more or less. Tom letting her live would also have been viewed as a weakness by the DEs.

HungarianHorntail11 - May 16, 2007 4:42 pm (#805 of 1297)

Mickey, according to JKR (See the Melissa/Emerson interview), the difference between James's death and Lily's death is that she did not need to die. James was going to die regardless, but Lily did have a choice, so my answer to your question is yes, he would have let her live. Why? No idea. I have to go with the author, since she's the boss.

Just a little something to consider. We do not know how much time passed between Lily's death and the AK aimed at Harry. There could have been plenty of time between the two to cast a spell onto an intended Horcrux item. As far as I can tell, it's not like making Polyjuice Potion.

TheSaint - May 17, 2007 2:42 am (#806 of 1297)

Or someone else cast the necessary spell to encase the torn piece.

gankomon - May 17, 2007 1:45 pm (#807 of 1297)

All,

Some superb hypothesizing in this thread- it raises some highly intriguing possibilities.

Mrs. Brisbee: The Harry-as-an-accidental Horcrux hypothesis is possibility, but if we accept the information provided in Book Six, it takes a murder to create a Horcrux. If Harry is indeed a Horcrux, then what murder made him one? The killing curse used on Harry did not actually kill anyone- it destroyed Voldemort's body and the Potters' house, but no individual was actually killed. If an earlier murder was used to perform the Horcrux spell, why? Assuming Harry was the target, why would Voldemort create Harry as a Horcrux and then use the killing curse on him after making him a Horcrux? That would be illogical on Voldemort's part. he went to Godric's Hollow to kill Harry and anyone who got in the way. Why would he pause to make Harry into a Horcrux when his sole reason for visiting the place was to murder Harry? Again, this does not compute. And it is clearly impossible for the spell to have been performed after Voldemort launched Avada Kedavra at Harry, since the backlash destroyed Voldemort’s body, leaving Harry with his scar.

me and my shadow 813- what a wonderful song. On the subject of Gryffindor's sword, I take Dumbledore at his word that the sword has remained safe. Speaking solely for myself, I do not see an opportunity for Voldemort to actually gain access to the sword. In addition, had he had it in his possession at Godric's Hollow, it would either not remain in Dumbledore's possession or either Hagrid or Sirius would have noted its presence and so informed Dumbledore. In either case, Dumbledore would know that the sword had fallen into Voldemort's possession.

There is one caveat- we do not know if the object that becomes a Horcrux needs to be in the physical possession of the Horcrux-creator. In that event, then Voldemort could have made the sword a Horcrux whether it was at Godric's Hollow or not. However, I maintain that Dumbeldore's statement of the sword's safety must be taken at face value. I think he would have warned Harry had he held any doubts whatsoever.

MickeyCee: I agree that Voldemort intended Harry to be the last Horcrux, but I do not believe he is actually a Horcrux. On a side note, HungarianHorntail11 pointed out that Ms. Rowling has confirmed in the Melissa-Emerson interview over at The Leaky Cauldron that Lily's death was not planned- Voldemort would have allowed her to live.

Returning to the matter of Harry-as-Horcrux, I consider the information that creating a Horcrux involves a spell of some kind to be critical, with the caveat referenced above. If a spell is required, Harry is unlikely to be a Horcrux, as very few wizards would be aware of Voldemort's plans in this regard. Thus, the caster of the spell (if not Voldemort) would have had to be with Voldemort at Godric's Hollow and also be aware of Voldemort's plans involving the Horcruxes. In the series so far we have not met any member of the Death Eaters who we know meets those criteria.

In point of fact, we have third-party evidence from Dumbledore that Voldemort was furious when he discovered the diary was destroyed. So Malfoy certainly had no inkling that the diary contained a piece of his master's soul. If Malfoy, one of the more trusted Death Eaters (he appeared to command the force sent to the Ministry) did not know, I find it unlikely that Pettigrew (who was only allowed to serve Snape as a servant) would know the secret of his master's survival.

That being said, there is an interesting case for the idea of Harry-as-Horcrux. I look forward to reading Book Seven and seeing how close any of us came to accurately predicting the Horcruxes.

Regards,

gankomon

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I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.

MickeyCee3948 - May 17, 2007 4:12 pm (#808 of 1297)

gankoman - Let's assume that all that is needed it to have your hand on the item which is to be the Horcrux. We have to assume as we have no canon.

My assumption is that Tom intended to make Harry the final Horcrux. He AK’d James, then AK’d Lily more to come on this subject and then he laid his hand on Harry. Spoke the words for the curse and issued his AK at Harry. But we all know that the AK rebounded and almost destroyed Tom instead of Harry. Wouldn't it be just like Tom to touch his Horcrux before he creates it. Seems like he did with all of the other items which were used.

Lily and Tom both knew she was not going to back off when the time came. What kind of life would she have had if she just stepped aside. In Lily's eyes nothing could have been worse. Of course in Tom's eyes he doesn't understand a mother willingly dying for her child. I know what JKR says that Lily didn't have to die at that time. But if not today, there's always tomorrow. Maybe in front of his DEs to show his contempt for her.

Mickey

Vox Gerbilis - May 17, 2007 4:40 pm (#809 of 1297)

MickeyCee--if I understand you correctly, you contend that LV intended to make Harry a Horcrux. As a living person or as a corpse? If as a living person, whose murder did he use to rip his soul? If as a corpse, do you mean he intended to use Harry's murder to make Harry's dead body a Horcrux?

Actually, the thought of the dead-Harry-Horcrux popped into my mind yesterday, but I rejected the theory on the ground that a dead toddler containing a fragment of a dark wizard's soul would be just too dark and macabre for these books. On reconsideration, that might not be a problem if the dead-Harry-Horcrux were just an unrealized plan. I see no inherent reason why a corpse could not be a Horcrux. Muggles can preserve corpses, after all, so wizards presumably could do so as well.

I've been convinced all along that Harry's scar is an unintentional Horcrux. The possibility that he might be an intentional Horcrux is quite interesting. It WILL be a lot of fun to find out how close any of our suggestions are to Jo's final product.

Choices - May 17, 2007 5:45 pm (#810 of 1297)

If a person dies (Horcruxless) his soul leaves not only the body, but also this earth, and goes to the "great beyond". When Voldemort's body died, his soul fled and went into hiding (because he had Horcruxes and the soul bit was anchored to the earth). So we have canon evidence for a soul leaving a dead body. Why then would a soul bit of Voldemort's be content to remain in Harry's dead body? It makes no sense (to me) that a soul bit would stay within a dead person.

PatPat - May 17, 2007 6:20 pm (#811 of 1297)

My problem with the intentional Horcrux theory (besides the above-mentioned which I agree with) is that, if Voldemort intended Harry to be a Horcrux, why on earth would he be trying to kill him all this time? Why would he make a Horcrux and then intentionally destroy it? This, to me, is completely illogical and I do not see Voldemort as illogical. Evil, cold, unemotional, yes, but not illogical.

Soul Search - May 17, 2007 7:02 pm (#812 of 1297)

Voldemort AKs Harry, Harry's soul leaves his body. The body is not, however, otherwise damaged (Riddles as example.) Voldemort uses the Horcrux spell and other magic to re-animate Harry's body with part of his own soul, producing a baby Voldemort.

Ugh. I don't like any part of the idea.

MickeyCee3948 - May 17, 2007 7:35 pm (#813 of 1297)
Edited May 17, 2007 8:37 pm

All of the items mentioned so far as Horcruxes are just pieces of metal. And the soul bit is confined in them. I don't think the soul bit has a say in it.

Why not use a dead body. I agree it is macabre but what better place. Who exactly is going to dig up a body that has probably been buried to check and see if it contains a Horcrux. Especially a child’s body. Tom could put all kinds of curses to protect the corpse and keep people away.

Tom has only been trying to kill Harry since his attempt to make him the Horcrux almost brought about his death. I don't believe that Tom realized the connection until he tried to possess Harry's body in OotP. Since then he has told all of his DEs to keep their hands off Harry. NO attacks in HBP. Harry was the only one doing the attacking.

Tom may want to capture Harry in DH and keep him close. Sorry, I really want Harry to live and prosper but Tom doesn't. Harry will defeat Tom in the end and none of this will matter.

Mickey

Mrs Brisbee - May 18, 2007 4:40 am (#814 of 1297)

Thanks for clarifying your theory, MickeyCee. I don't think Voldemort would ever use a live Harry as a Horcrux, but I can see what you mean about Voldy getting satisfaction out of the irony of using dead Harry as his final Horcrux. The guy does have a lake full of Inferi, so he isn't adverse to secreting away dead bodies. I don't know that I agree that Harry's body was the intended item, but your theory makes sense to me now.

gankomon - May 18, 2007 6:33 am (#815 of 1297)

MickeyCee,

Like Mrs Brisbee, I thank you for the clarification. I agree that your hypothesis is feasible, as we do not know either the limitations or the pre-requisites of the Horcrux spell. However, I would like to make one small correction, if I may. If we accept Dumbledore's theory of the current Horcruxes as correct, living things can serve as Horcruxes, so not all the named Horcruxes are metallic objects. In addition, the diary was non-metallic. So I would suggest that we say that save for Nagini all the other Horcruxes are inanimate objects.

As you pointed out, it does follow logically that Voldemort might use a corpse as a Horcrux (thank you Mrs. Brisbee for the reminder of Voldemort's Inferi collection in the lake). I think we all agree that Harry's murder was intended to serve as the occasion for creating the final Horcrux, so using his corpse as a repository would make sense to Voldemort, who does like collecting.

I do think that the intended container was not Harry's body, but as you say, we have no canon, so we are reduced to uneducated guessing. I trust that Ms. Rowling will clear up this most interesting loose end in Book Seven.

Regards,

gankomon

-------------------

I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.

Choices - May 18, 2007 10:34 am (#816 of 1297)

Gankomon - "...so we are reduced to uneducated guessing."

I think we are obligated as serious HP readers, to try to do more than just "uneducated guessing." I think we should do our very best to be knowledgeable, logical and accurate when proposing a theory. It should be based on all the canon information we can unearth - thus our guessing will at least be educated.

Luna Logic - May 18, 2007 11:32 am (#817 of 1297)
Edited by May 18, 2007 12:35 pm

Vox Gerbilis: a dead toddler containing a fragment of a dark wizard's soul would be just too dark and macabre for these books But we have already got the chapter 32 in Book 4: Bones, flesh, blood... macabre indeed !

Personally I don't "feel" Harry is a Horcrux, but I can imagine that Voldemort intended that. And about the theory of "dead-Harry-Horcrux", I have read the idea of Harry' skull, conserved as a trophy... Yes, macabre again.

HungarianHorntail11 - May 18, 2007 1:41 pm (#818 of 1297)
Edited May 18, 2007 2:45 pm

Assuming Harry was the target, why would Voldemort create Harry as a Horcrux and then use the killing curse on him after making him a Horcrux? gankomon

Speaking for myself, I am under the impression that Big V intended to use the rip which results from Harry's murder to make the Horcrux in an item. I am guessing the item was the sword, which he never did fulfill but it is only a guess. I am suspicious of the fact that it surfaced in CoS. He killed Lily, setting into place an ancient protective charm. It is my belief that this protection was twofold. First, Big V's AK aimed at Harry rebounded, saving him from certain immediate death. Second, it took the tear that resulted from Lily's murder and the Horcrux spell (which I believe was in place before he AK'd Harry) and sent the soul bit hurtling (for lack of a better word) into Harry. Entrance point - the scar. That is the accidental Horcrux. That would serve to protect Harry later, as it seems to be evolving. We see in Book 6 that the DEs were given strict orders not to kill Harry. My suspicion is as most on this thread believe, that Big V has learned of the soulbit in Harry and intends to protect it until he can figure out how to remove it and put it into a safer place. This has helped Harry by buying him precious time. Otherwise, the DEs could have AK'd him during the HW battle. After all, he was quite vulnerable when he was chasing Snape across the HW grounds.

In this situation, I hope you can see that Big V didn't intend for the Horcrux to end up in Harry but with so much powerful magic taking place - Lily's protective charm, an AK and the reaction on Big V's tethered soul from the rebound - the detached soul piece ended up in Harry.

There is circumstantial evidence which has been pointed out on this thread in previous posts. I feel as though JKR used DD to point out his theory about Nagini being the Horcrux to let the reader know that a living Horcrux is a possibility. Otherwise, how else would we know. Still, other pieces of the puzzle which would make it easier to discern likely theories from unlikely ones, such as exactly how a Horcrux is made (when is the spell cast, etc.) are suspiciously left out. Really, if we knew that, most of these theories could be nixed, including mine.

Slughorn stated that murder rips the soul. He also pointed out that someone with the intent would use the rip to his/her advantage. That word intent leads me to believe the spell is cast before the actual murder.

Maybe in front of his DEs to show his contempt for her. MickeyCee

Mickey, I am thinking that if he did have such strong contempt, he would not have allowed her to step aside - not even as a favor to anyone.

MickeyCee3948 - May 18, 2007 4:47 pm (#819 of 1297)
Edited May 18, 2007 5:47 pm

gankomon I accept your correction. But since I did not accept that part of DD theory of the remaining Horcruxes, I left it out. But as choices points out our theories should at least be based on some canon and DD did point out his thought that Nagini was the final Horcrux. Your point is well made.

Mickey

Choices - May 18, 2007 5:23 pm (#820 of 1297)

I think that when proposing a theory, it is important to find canon evidence to support it, but it is just as important to find out if there is canon evidence against it.

Solitaire - May 19, 2007 7:59 am (#821 of 1297)

Why not use a dead body.

The problem is that dead bodies decompose. Eventually, there would be no Horcrux.

Solitaire

PatPat - May 19, 2007 10:13 am (#822 of 1297)
Edited May 19, 2007 11:13 am

The problem is that dead bodies decompose. Eventually, there would be no Horcrux. Solitaire

Unless there is a magical way to stop the decomposition. The Inferi do not seem to decompose completely for some reason.

I am still not a believer that Harry is a Horcrux, but we do have canon evidence to support that a dead body COULD be used in this way (I.e. the Inferi).

Choices - May 19, 2007 10:24 am (#823 of 1297)

PatPat - "... but we do have canon evidence to support that a dead body COULD be used in this way (I.e. the Inferi)."

In order to have canon evidence that a dead body can be used as a Horcrux, we have to have had one....and we haven't. I do not recall one instance of a dead body being used as a Horcrux. There is no proof that the Inferi that jumped up out of the lake when Harry cast "accio" is a Horcrux.

azi - May 19, 2007 10:30 am (#824 of 1297)

Although I'm sure it would be possible for a dead body to be used as a Horcrux, if you were to preserve it somehow, I don't think Voldemort would do it. Dumbledore stated that LV has never loved anyone or felt close to a human, and his Horcruxes are all to do with him increasing his feeling of power over everyone else. I don't think there would be a significant person in his life who he would use in such a way.

HungarianHorntail11 - May 19, 2007 1:58 pm (#825 of 1297)

I strongly feel as though the purpose of Inferi is to fight for Big V. I understand that when Harry yelled Accio Horcrux in the cave, an Inferi did jump out of the water. I am thinking that is because the locket may have ended up in the lake by whoever tried to steal it, rather than an Inferi actually being a Horcrux.

I cannot buy into the idea that Big V would want to make a Horcrux out of a corpse or a baby. It simply does not seem like a viable solution. The death of his father was also a significant death but as far as we can tell, he was not made into a Horcrux, so why would he do so with Harry?

PatPat - May 20, 2007 7:33 am (#826 of 1297)
Edited May 20, 2007 8:35 am

In order to have canon evidence that a dead body can be used as a Horcrux, we have to have had one....and we haven't. I do not recall one instance of a dead body being used as a Horcrux. There is no proof that the Inferi that jumped up out of the lake when Harry cast "accio" is a Horcrux.

Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly, Choices, I did not mean that there was canon evidence that a dead body could be used as a Horcrux. I meant that there was canon evidence that a dead body could be USED, period. I was responding to someone saying that a dead body could not be used as a Horcrux because it would decompose. However we have seen dead bodies used for dark magic and have not completely decomposed. For the record, I do not believe Voldemort was planning on using Harry's dead body as a Horcrux, nor do I believe Harry is a Horcrux now. But that's just my opinion and I have been wrong before!

Choices - May 20, 2007 8:14 am (#827 of 1297)

PatPat - "But that's just my opinion and I have been wrong before!"

Boy, can I relate to that. :-) I understand what you are saying now. Thanks for explaining - I agree with you.

TheSaint - May 20, 2007 2:22 pm (#828 of 1297)
Edited May 20, 2007 3:23 pm

Pat at - I do not believe Voldemort was planning on using Harry's dead body as a Horcrux.

I thought the question was whether implanting a soulbit into Harry's dead body might reanimate him? He would not be Harry but possibly some Clone-clone, possessing some powers and, should Voldemort find himself in a 'Vapormort' condition, available for reinsertion. He may not have been capable of living a normal life, but he sure could have hung out in St. Mungo's Permanent Spell Damage Ward.

Choices - May 20, 2007 5:14 pm (#829 of 1297)

I have a question for the "Harry is a Horcrux" folks. Why do you think that for the first 11 years of Harry's life, the scar/Horcrux did not bother Harry? He states that he rather liked the scar. But, he goes to Hogwarts and suddenly his scar begins to cause him pain. I realize that Voldemort was not at his strongest and was not close by for those early years, but if Harry's scar is a Horcrux, it seems it would have given a twinge or two during all that time when Voldemort was mad or emotional. Any ideas?

HungarianHorntail11 - May 20, 2007 7:14 pm (#830 of 1297)
Edited May 20, 2007 8:15 pm

Great question, Choices. I think he was in such a weakened state that he was lucky to be in existence. When he was strong enough to occupy a human (Quirrell), the twinges started.

MickeyCee3948 - May 20, 2007 9:16 pm (#831 of 1297)

Choices I would suggest that in the magic world as well as the real world that distance has an effect on the strength of signals (for lack of a better word). With Tom away in Albania and not exactly in the best of health, I doubt if his feelings good or bad would have been strong enough to reach Harry clear back in England. In his own words he states that he merely existed from one creature to the next drawing the life out of them for his mere existence.

We have seen no magic other than portkeys which transcends great distances. Can't come up with a better reason, sorry. As HH1 states that as soon as he started gaining stronger in Quirrell, Harry started having the pain from the scar. From the first night at Hogwarts forward.

Mickey

Felix Felicis - May 21, 2007 2:00 am (#832 of 1297)
Edited May 21, 2007 3:01 am

Sorry if this has already been mentioned but whilst re-reading CoS, a paragraph from page 174 really jumped out at me as strange and I would REALLY appreciate some other opinions

Harry couldn’t explain, even to himself, why he didn’t just throw Riddle’s diary away. The fact that even though he knew the diary was blank, he kept absent-mindedly picking it up and turning the pages, as though it was a story he wanted to finish. And while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T M Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he’d had when he was very small, and half- forgotten. But this was absurd, He’d never had friends before Hogwarts, Dudley made sure of that.

WHY would Harry feel as though Riddle was a friend, half-forgotten? At this point in the book, Harry hasn’t yet discovered that the diary writes back, so it seems a bit strange that he should feel this way about an old blank diary. Yes, the circumstances around the diary are mysterious, but this still doesn’t warrant why Harry should feel like the name Riddle means something to him, and that Riddle was a friend.

Yes, Ron knows the name Riddle from the Trophy room and tells Harry this, but Harry has no reason to feel like HE knows Riddle

Now, I’m not sure whether I think Harry is a Horcrux, and I’m not sure if I want him to be one BUT, this really stayed in my mind throughout the book and I kept going back to page 174 to read it again. In my view, the above paragraph would make sense if Harry WAS a Horcrux

Could it be that Harry felt like Riddle was a friend half-forgotten because of the 1/7th of Voldemorts soul inside him somehow connected to the diary Horcrux?? Do the different parts of the soul connect in a spiritual way when they are near to each other??

It seems as though the bit of LV soul inside Harry somehow recognised the other part of soul in the diary; a friend half-forgotten. Hmmm very strange

I have no-one to discuss this with and would appreciate your thoughts on this as its been bugging me for the last week

Cheers!

Vox Gerbilis - May 21, 2007 2:26 am (#833 of 1297)

Felix, I recently came across that passage myself, and also thought, aha! It certainly does strongly suggest that Harry had a subconscious sense of empathy with LV even before the letter from Hogwarts arrived.

As for the question of why Harry did not feel pain in the scar before coming to Hogwarts, I agree with the answers offered by Mickey and Hungarian Horntail. I also add one of my own. The scar acts as an emotional connector between Harry and LV. Between the fateful night at Godric's Hollow and Harry's arrival at Hogwarts, Harry and LV had a lot of common emotional ground. Both were miserable, both were existing as a mere shadow of their potential. LV was utterly defeated, without strength or power, with very little hope. Harry also was in a state of constant emotional defeat, humiliated by the Dursleys, receiving nothing but the barest necessities of life, also with very little hope. LV probably had enough emotional strength to feel rage about his condition, but Harry also experienced anger along with his humiliation and depression. He could have been channeling LV's emotions the entire time without ever noticing because they would have been indistinguishable from his own. He was not happy until he arrived at Hogwarts, and it was only then that LV's emotions became apparent to him because they contrasted with his own.

Madame Pomfrey - May 21, 2007 8:13 am (#834 of 1297)

I am also a believer that Harry's scar is a Horcrux. Mainly because I can't think of any other explanation as to why Harry shares both Voldemorts powers and his emotions. Dumbledore said that the "power the Dark Lord knows not" is Love, but I also think it may refer to a Horcrux. I don't think Voldemort knows this because it was a freak accident. Once the other Horcruxes are destroyed except the one residing in Harry, Harry sacrificing himself for the Wizarding World would be the utmost act of love, so love would kill Voldemort. The only way I see this happening so that Harry lives is Voldemort AK'ing Harry, hitting the scar and destroying it, then it rebounding and Killing himself much the same way it all happened at Godric's Hollow.

gankomon - May 21, 2007 10:50 am (#835 of 1297)

Choices,

Let me clarify. When I say 'uneducated" guessing, I reference that fact that at this stage, we lack the information necessary to confirm our varied hypotheses. "Uneducated" was a poor choice of phrase, thus I apologize. I agree that we, as appreciative and intelligent readers should base theories on all available canonical evidence. My apologies if the intent was unclear in my previous posting.

On the Horcrux theory, I believe I have made it clear that I do not incline to the theory of Harry-as-Horcrux, though I can appreciate why it has gained such traction. One piece of evidence that should also be considered is Dumbledore's comment about Voldemort's habit of collecting. How would a dead body, preserved or not, be "collectible"? If Voldemort likes making his Horcruxes of objects that have significance in the Wizarding World, Harry's death would certainly provide the occasion, but his body would not be a likely object. I lean towards the idea of the Horcrux as something else. However, I repeat- at this stage we simply do not have enough information.

Regards,

gankomon

Madame Pomfrey - May 21, 2007 3:22 pm (#836 of 1297)

I don't think Voldemort intended to use Harry's body just his death. Because of Lily's sacrifice, unforeseen by Voldemort, the Horcrux embedded in Harry's scar rather than the intended vessel. I think it was a freak accident and Voldemort remains unaware of it. However, Voldemort realizes Harry has been hard to kill and has ordered him not touched. I think he is waiting to hear the rest of the prophecy before he takes action against Harry, IMO. It will be interesting to see how Voldemort interprets the Prophecy that JKR and Sybill worded so carefully.

MickeyCee3948 - May 21, 2007 4:43 pm (#837 of 1297)
Edited May 21, 2007 5:48 pm

Madame Pomfrey I will concede that I am not positive that Tom meant to use Harry's body as the vessel for the last Horcrux. We just have not seen an object that was at Godric's Hollow which would have fit the mold. I think it (Harry being a intended Horcrux)is a possibility but I am not certain. I am 99% certain that the scar is a Horcrux at this time.

I also believe that Tom came to that realization in the Ministry battle. After his momentary possession of Harry, he made no further attempts to harm Harry and made his DEs back off of Harry in HBP even if they had a clear path.

WHY?

It cannot be that he alone wants to destroy Harry. He has been beaten back every time he has tried. Let Snape do it? Let 2 or 3 DEs gang up on him and finish him off. Just get him out of the way. Unless their is a reason for NOT offing him. The seventh and final Horcrux is that reason. In my humble opinion.

As to how Harry could be a intended Horcrux and not be a dead body. We know that Tom wanted to AK Harry at GH. But it didn't happen. Could he now want Harry in a state of suspended animation. What were the effects of the Draught of the Living Death? Couldn't Tom then keep Harry around forever as a trophy? I don't remember what the effects were and I don't have my books at my disposal. Wouldn't the draught keep Harry alive but unable to move, speak or take any action against Tom? Pretty good trophy me thinks. He could then show the whole Wizarding World what he did with there champion.

Just my thoughts folks. No canon for most of this Choices, but there's just not that much canon out their about the Horcruxes.

Mickey

P.S. I think my theory is better than the Snape as a lone crusader.

Choices - May 21, 2007 4:52 pm (#838 of 1297)

Mickey - "P.S. I think my theory is better than the Snape as a lone crusader."

LOL On that we can agree. :-)

Solitaire - May 21, 2007 7:44 pm (#839 of 1297)
Edited May 21, 2007 8:46 pm

I believe Voldemort kept close tabs on Harry, based on some of his comments in GoF. He would have known that Harry was not yet in the magical world but cloistered away, out of Voldy's clutches. I don't believe it was an accident that Harry began having pain in his scar once he entered the magical world.

It cannot be that he alone wants to destroy Harry.

I disagree, Mickey. I think Voldemort's ego is so huge that now he must destroy Harry himself. We have already seen him drag Harry to the graveyard, where he planned to finish him off before all of the DE audience. That didn't turn out so well, did it? Now he has not only the AK that went awry to avenge but the Priori Incantatem debacle, which was witnessed by everyone.

Voldemort planned his strategy in OotP, but Lucius and other DEs not only caused the prophecy to be destroyed but were arrested and incarcerated into the bargain. Voldemort is probably so enraged at this point that I'm hoping he will do something stupid. If you look at the Scholastic cover of the book, you can see hooded onlookers in the distance. DEs? It would be like Voldemort to invite his minions in for what he probably believes will be the final showdown.

We know Voldemort is interested in the number 7. Well, there is an important 7 in play in DH: It is Harry's 7th year at Hogwarts. Could the fact that this is Harry's 7th year work in his favor?

Solitaire

Thom Matheson - May 21, 2007 8:02 pm (#840 of 1297)
Edited May 21, 2007 9:03 pm

Solitaire, I agree with you. Harry, other then Dumbledore, is the only one Voldemort hasn't beaten. He is going to start losing supporters. He has got to defeat Harry alone, in order to keep the myth alive. Remember that the greatest threat to a tyrant is from within the ranks.

Solitaire - May 21, 2007 8:43 pm (#841 of 1297)

Thom, I think Voldemort believes that Dumbledore alone has been standing between him and Harry's demise. I think Draco's task in HBP was to remove Dumbledore. Voldemort knew Dumbledore well enough to gamble that he would not harm a student, even to save his own life; so I think he felt safe giving Draco this task. I suspect that Voldemort believes Harry is vulnerable now that his Protector has been eliminated.

If Harry is indeed a Horcrux, as many suspect, then he must destroy all of the other Horcruxes before he meets Voldemort, because if he dies in battle with Voldemort, then perhaps his death will take Voldemort down, as well. I really can't see Jo allowing Voldemort to live while Harry dies ... although I can see both going down in flames. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire

gankomon - May 22, 2007 9:34 am (#842 of 1297)

Solitaire,

On the idea of Voldemort and Harry, I agree that Voldemort might think Dumbledore has been standing between him and Harry. Certainly Dumbledore does protect Harry in the Ministry, as he engages Voldemort in battle, though he does not try to kill him.

And Voldemort is vain. He would be enraged that Harry has escaped him five times now, including three individual duels in Book One, Book Two and Book Four. So the idea of the Death Eaters watching would make perfect sense. If only for his own satisfaction, he has to destroy Harry- remember his rage in Book Two at Harry's contention that Dumbledore was a greater wizard?

I still cannot see Harry himself as a Horcrux- I believe we have encountered the mysterious final Horcrux already somewhere in the previous books. However, I agree that it is unlikely Ms. Rowling would allow Harry to die while leaving Voldemort alive.

Regards,

gankomon

-------------------

I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.

me and my shadow 813 - May 22, 2007 2:26 pm (#843 of 1297)
Edited May 22, 2007 3:26 pm

I also believe that Tom came to that realization in the Ministry battle. After his momentary possession of Harry, he made no further attempts to harm Harry and made his DEs back off of Harry in HBP even if they had a clear path. WHY? It cannot be that he alone wants to destroy Harry. He has been beaten back every time he has tried. Let Snape do it? Let 2 or 3 DEs gang up on him and finish him off. Just get him out of the way. Unless their is a reason for NOT offing him. The seventh and final Horcrux is that reason. In my humble opinion. - MickeyCee

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I also can see Mickey's idea that Vold is looking to turn Harry into an Inferi.

PatPat - May 22, 2007 4:15 pm (#844 of 1297)

I disagree, Mickey. I think Voldemort's ego is so huge that now he must destroy Harry himself. We have already seen him drag Harry to the graveyard, where he planned to finish him off before all of the DE audience. That didn't turn out so well, did it? Now he has not only the AK that went awry to avenge but the Priori Incantatem debacle, which was witnessed by everyone. Solitaire

I completely agree with you, Solitaire. Voldemort would NEVER want someone else to kill Harry at this point. As much as he feared Dumbledore, Dumbledore was not "the Chosen One" nor had he defied Voldemort as Harry has (as far as we know). Plus, being defeated by Dumbledore, the greatest wizard in the world, is not an embarrassment. I am sure Voldemort is ENRAGED that Harry, a mere boy, has escaped his grasp four times. How can he convince others that he is the greatest sorcerer in the world when he is beaten at every turn by a child? No, I am convinced that Voldemort would want to take care of Harry himself to satisfy everyone and his own ego.

Solitaire - May 23, 2007 6:20 am (#845 of 1297)

I do believe that, PatPat, and I think Voldemort's underestimation of Harry will be his downfall. Harry certainly has weak areas, it is true. He does not always pay attention to details, and his tendency to procrastinate is worrisome, because it often deals with something crucial. Two instances that immediately spring to mind are his dilly-dallying about working with the egg in GoF and his carelessness about finding out Slughorn's memory, when Dumbledore had stressed its importance. Harry has an unfortunate tendency toward tunnel vision, and he often has a hard time pulling his concentration away from whatever has captivated it at the moment.

Interestingly, Voldemort is another one who overlooks critical information--or maybe just disregards it. It is my hope that he will do the same thing once again. I'm still not sure about the Harry-is-a-Horcrux theory ... I just can't decide!

Solitaire

TheSaint - May 23, 2007 8:03 am (#846 of 1297)
Edited May 23, 2007 9:04 am

I also believe that Tom came to that realization in the Ministry battle.

I am not so sure. Dumbledore and Harry theorize that Voldemort is unable to 'feel' the destruction of the soul pieces because he has been separated from them for too long. Would this apply to his being able to 'feel' the soulbit possibly present in Harry? Would the love present in Harry have masked the soulbit?

Could Voldemort have backed off because he has yet again failed to take out Harry and decides to come at the problem from a new angle, by taking out Harry's mentor and protector?

Magic Words - May 23, 2007 8:50 am (#847 of 1297)

Saint, are you saying Harry is a Horcrux and Tom doesn't know it?

I suppose that is possible--he didn't understand Priori Incantatem, after all, so he may well know less about his own Horcruxes than Dumbledore, and even Dumbledore (possibly) didn't guess. However I do think it likely that when Voldemort realized Harry was receiving glimpses into his mind, he started to suspect. I don't think he would have been able to possess Harry in the way he did if Harry hadn't been a Horcrux, so he may have guessed before then or he may have learned in that moment, but I think he knows now.

PatPat - May 23, 2007 4:55 pm (#848 of 1297)

I don't think he would have been able to possess Harry in the way he did if Harry hadn't been a Horcrux, so he may have guessed before then or he may have learned in that moment, but I think he knows now. Magic Words

Why? He was able to possess Ginny in CoS. Are you saying Ginny is a Horcrux too?

me and my shadow 813 - May 23, 2007 5:00 pm (#849 of 1297)
Edited May 23, 2007 6:06 pm

Ginny willfully poured her heart and soul (literally )into the diary, which was the fuel with which Vold could possess her. Harry did no such thing at the MoM. In fact we've only seen possession through free will to some degree: Ginny (as described above), Quirrell (we were told was willing), and Nagini (we can assume was willing).

It seems in CoS it was classic "psychic vampiring" where the energy-sucker uses the victim's unresolved fear/shame as food to grow stronger and eventually possess the other person or in this case take the soul into their own form.

PatPat - May 23, 2007 5:12 pm (#850 of 1297)
Edited May 23, 2007 6:13 pm

Yeah, I can't get on board with that. Voldemort is supposedly the most skilled Legilimens in the world. I would think similar powers would be required to possess someone. Yes, he needed Ginny to pour herself into the Diary, but, at that point, he was a bodiless soul. Now that he has a body, I would think he would be capable of possessing someone if he tried hard enough.

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HungarianHorntail11 - May 23, 2007 5:25 pm (#851 of 1297)
Edited May 23, 2007 6:28 pm

FWIW, I think the Ginny possession was of a different nature entirely. That is a soul bit (Horcrux) in possession of someone vs. the core soul of someone possessing. Ginny said she couldn't remember entire blocks of time during the times when Riddle was possessing her. Harry has a clear memory of Big V's possession of him.

We really don't know (other than DD's guess) what kind of reaction/interaction, if any, there is when a Horcrux is near its core soul. For this reason, that to me, is a bit of a dead end.

I agree with MickeyCee, M&MS and Solitaire. I do believe that until he realized it, Big V did indeed want to kill Harry himself out of pride. Since the MoM and the snake/Mr. Weasley incident, however, I think he has put two and two together and is now aware of the Horcrux in Harry. So, both Mickey's and Solitaire's ideas apply here.

gankomon - May 25, 2007 9:05 am (#852 of 1297)

But is there a Horcrux actually in Harry? While I agree that the scar is the result of a failed Horcrux attempt, I am not convinced that it is a full Horcrux. Remember, the spell failed due to the fact that no murder occurred. So instead of implanting a piece of soul, Voldemort transferred other aspects of himself- specifically certain powers and an ability for Harry to see some of what Voldemort is doing.

I think that while Dumbledore certainly would have recognized the possibility that Voldemort tried to make a Horcrux with Harry's murder, the fact that the murder did not occur means that Harry is not a Horcrux. Please note- I am merely stating what I believe Dumbledore's thoughts may have been. That being said, I cannot imagine that Dumbledore would not have told Harry he might be a Horcrux if there was the slightest chance that was indeed the case. Instead, he told him that Voldemort transferred some of his powers to Harry "not something he intended to do, I am sure" ( Dumbledore to Harry at the end of Book Two).

I think that Voldemort's desire to kill Harry is still as strong as ever, seeing as how Harry is now the sole surviving individual Voldemort has never defeated. And especially with the Daily Prophet's "Chosen One" stories, he would need to eliminate Harry before he can proceed with his plans for world domination.

Regards,

gankomon

PatPat - May 25, 2007 9:23 am (#853 of 1297)
Edited May 25, 2007 10:25 am

That being said, I cannot imagine that Dumbledore would not have told Harry he might be a Horcrux if there was the slightest chance that was indeed the case. Instead, he told him that Voldemort transferred some of his powers to Harry "not something he intended to do, I am sure" ( Dumbledore to Harry at the end of Book Two). gankomon

I agree entirely. In fact, that is my biggest reason for not believing Harry is a Horcrux. I CANNOT accept that Dumbledore, the cleverest wizard we know, has never considered the possibility that Harry could be a Horcrux. Therefore, if we are to assume Harry is indeed a Horcrux, we have to accept the fact that Dumbledore had considered the possibility and didn't bother to inform Harry. I can't see this happening. Dumbledore was in a near frenzy to teach Harry everything he could during that final year. I believe Dumbledore knew his time was short. For him to keep this crucial piece of information from Harry, or to simply drop vague hints as some have suggested, to me seems completely irresponsible, and does not fit with Dumbledore's personality as we know it. Dumbledore learned his lesson in OoP about keeping these types of things from Harry. Harry has to destroy the Horcruxes in order to destroy Voldemort. Dumbledore knows this. I don't think, after the events in book 5, that Dumbledore would risk the entire Wizarding World in order to protect Harry's feelings. In addition, why wouldn't he have tried to help Harry to remove the Horcrux safely?

Mrs Brisbee - May 25, 2007 9:30 am (#854 of 1297)

Dumbledore was in a near frenzy to teach Harry everything he could during that final year.

I disagree with this. Certainly Dumbledore was trying to teach Harry everything he could, but it struck me as more of a slow and methodical pace rather than a fast and furious one. How many lessons did Harry have, stretched over how many months? I think it quite likely that there were a number of important points Dumbledore never got to cover with Harry.

PatPat - May 25, 2007 10:04 am (#855 of 1297)

I disagree with this. Certainly Dumbledore was trying to teach Harry everything he could, but it struck me as more of a slow and methodical pace rather than a fast and furious one. How many lessons did Harry have, stretched over how many months? I think it quite likely that there were a number of important points Dumbledore never got to cover with Harry. Mrs. Brisbee

The lessons were spread out only because Dumbledore was also leaving Hogwarts continually to try to find the Horcruxes. Don't forget, one of the rare occasions we see Dumbledore angry with Harry is when Harry does not carry out the assignment to get Slughorn's memory. Why would he have been angry unless he felt that time was of the essence? I agree that there were probably things Dumbledore never got to tell Harry. However, IMO, Harry being a Horcrux would have been one of the first things that would have had to be said once the Slughorn memory was obtained. The two had a long discussion regarding what the possible Horcruxes were. I just can't see Dumbledore leaving this possibility out unless he was sure it was not the case. Not only would it put the rest of the WW in danger, but HARRY as well. It certainly would not be a good idea for Harry to learn that he is a Horcrux in the midst of the final battle with Voldemort. Wouldn't it be better to learn this from his friend and mentor who could then help him to remove it safely?

Mrs Brisbee - May 25, 2007 10:15 am (#856 of 1297)

All good questions, PatPat. I thought "Horcruxes" was to tell us about what Tom Riddle intentionally did, and what items he intentionally chose. I don't think the lessons were over. If Harry and Dumbledore had acquired the Locket Horcrux, they would have likely studied and destroyed it together. There were still many things Harry could have stood to learn from Dumbledore, but Dumbledore then was killed.

HungarianHorntail11 - May 25, 2007 1:53 pm (#857 of 1297)

gankomon, there was a murder - more than one, in fact. James's and most importantly, Lily's. If he performed the spell en route to Harry's room, he wouldn't want another death/rip in his soul beside Harry's once the spell was set in place. It would explain why he wanted Lily to stand aside.

Regarding the powers - The only time we have seen anything remotely like a transfer of powers in the magic world at all was when Big V's Horcrux bit possessed Ginny. She killed roosters under his possession, etc. As far as I remember, I haven't seen a transfer of powers without a soul being involved. DD may not be incorrect in saying to Harry that Big V inadvertently transferred his powers but rather, came up a bit short in that his ripped soul bit also transferred. It wouldn't be the first time DD came up short in his explanations to Harry. OotP has several.

I agree with Mrs. Brisbee. Yet another example - DD doesn't come right out and say, "Harry, Voldemort has Horcruxes hidden about. Let me tell you about them and then we'll seek them out." His approach is very round about. If he had chosen not to tell Harry, I don't think it would have been to spare Harry's feelings so much as to avoid putting Harry off the whole Harry/Big V/Horcrux debacle. He is having a difficult enough time as it is getting his mind set on going after Big V.

me and my shadow 813 - May 25, 2007 2:56 pm (#858 of 1297)
Edited May 25, 2007 3:58 pm

I try so hard not to compare HP series with others of the genre on this forum -- but... here we go. If I recall (could be wrong), Obi Wan doesn't tell Luke about who his father is, nor does Yoda. These are supposed to be Luke's mentors yet they cannot break certain laws of free will, one of the big ones being *ask and you shall receive*. In the Grail Quest stories, Percival and Galahad are denied the cup because they don't ask what it is for, or "who does the grail serve?". When Harry asked DD at the end of CoS something like 'Voldemort put a bit of himself into me?', DD replies with something like 'it seems so, yes'. To me, if in Horcruxes chapter, had Harry then asked DD 'that bit of Voldemort that's in me...is it a Horcrux bit?', I believe DD would then have been obligated to say 'it seems so, yes'. Other than that, in my opinion he can only take his part in Harry's self-discovery so far.

MickeyCee3948 - May 25, 2007 4:49 pm (#859 of 1297)
Edited May 25, 2007 5:53 pm

I do not agree PatPat Dumbledore has tried to spare Harry for six books. He has withheld information from him and admits at the end of OotP that it was a mistake. I just believe that with everything that was going on in HBP, DD just did not want to drop that last burden on Harry.

Harry was just starting to accept the fact that he was destined to be the one who would have to remove Tom from the wizarding world. That HE would have to find the remaining Horcruxes and destroy them. That in itself would be quite an accomplishment for a 17 year old considering that Tom is one of the strongest dark wizards ever.

Now you expect DD to just blurt out the fact that "Oh by the way Harry that scar on your head contains the last Horcrux". That means that not only will Harry have to beat the strongest dark wizard ever but will also have to die in order to save the wizarding world.

I believe that Harry with the help of Hermione will come to that realization(that Harry is a Horcrux) before the final battle giving the team time to come up with a possible scenario where Tom can be killed, the scar can be removed from Harry and destroyed and Harry can live a long life with Ginny.

We think alike HH1. DD just couldn't do it. He had led Harry to this point and now he is gone. It's time for Harry to step up and finish the job, and he will. HE WILL SURVIVE!!

Mickey

P.S. I think that DD's portrait will get yelled at when Harry figures out the truth and confronts DD. "Well old man one last secret you kept from me, huh!"

Magic Words - May 25, 2007 6:42 pm (#860 of 1297)
Edited May 25, 2007 7:45 pm

I can concede that Dumbledore probably would have told Harry if he believed Harry was a Horcrux--at least, I hope he would. It's also possible, though, that he considered the idea but managed to convince himself that wasn't the case. I can see Dumbledore thinking the idea was almost too horrible to contemplate--first of all, Voldemort could never be fully defeated, and second of all, Harry would be in big trouble. Objectively yes, he should have considered the full implications and warned Harry that it was a possibility. But Dumbledore is human too, and it could be that his great mistake we're still waiting on (those of us who don't believe it was trusting Snape)was being unwilling to entertain the notion because it was simply too painful and not all that difficult to rationalize away, after all--the raging debate here is evidence enough of that.
Edited to add: I've said Dumbledore might believe a Harrycrux would spell the end for both Harry and his mission of defeating Voldemort. That doesn't mean I believe this will be the case. I fully expect Harry to discover, either instinctively or through a lucky chance, some method of defeating Voldemort that even Dumbledore never predicted. Dumbledore has a vague idea, but "using the power the Dark Lord knows not" leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

PatPat - May 25, 2007 6:44 pm (#861 of 1297)
Edited May 25, 2007 7:45 pm

Now you expect DD to just blurt out the fact that "Oh by the way Harry that scar on your head contains the last Horcrux". That means that not only will Harry have to beat the strongest dark wizard ever but will also have to die in order to save the wizarding world. Mickey

So it would be better for Dumbledore to give Harry some vague hints about the possibility that a living thing could be a Horcrux?? If that is what happened, I will be very disappointed in Dumbledore. As you say, he admits that it was a mistake to not tell Harry the truth in OoP. It put Harry in danger and it put other lives in danger, resulting in Sirius' death. Dumbledore knows the stakes at this point. Harry needs to be focused on the goal ahead and how can he do that if he is on a wild goose chase for a Horcrux that doesn't exist because Dumbledore thought it would be better to tell him that Nagini might be the Horcrux rather than the truth?? Hoping against hope that Harry would figure it out in time? No way. Obviously I could be wrong. I have been before, and I will be the first to admit it if I am. But, for me at least, JKR will have to seriously justify either Dumbledore not knowing or Dumbledore lying to Harry. We will see. Eight weeks and counting!!

HungarianHorntail11 - May 26, 2007 8:16 am (#862 of 1297)

So it would be better for Dumbledore to give Harry some vague hints about the possibility that a living thing could be a Horcrux?? If that is what happened, I will be very disappointed in Dumbledore. PatPat

But we already see DD giving the Horcrux information in small bites to Harry. It's right there in canon. There is no mistaking DD's methods.

Personally, I don't think he knew before he died - he may have had an inkling but dismissed it as Magic Words suggested. But in introducing the concept of a living Horcrux without giving away something that will have a drastic impact on the situation seems more plausible to me.

JKR has also addressed DD's 'off the mark' guesses by saying that when he is, they're big. I don't think it gets much bigger than that.

Vox Gerbilis - May 26, 2007 9:25 am (#863 of 1297)

I don't think we can discount the possibility that Harry is a Horcrux on the ground that Dumbledore did not tell him. First, I agree with comments already posted that Dumbledore's teaching style was a gradual process of revelation. Dumbledore might have had reason to expect that he would not live much longer, but he did not know exactly when he would die. He might have reasonably expected that he had least had a few more weeks or months with Harry.

Second, I don't think we can assume that Dumbledore's knowledge of LV's Horcruxes was complete. He was still putting the pieces together himself, which was why it was so important that he acquire Slughorn's untampered memory.

Finally, and this is non-textual, as a matter of literary structure Dumbledore has to be wrong about something. This is Harry's story, which means that Harry will have to learn to rely on his own wits to conquer LV. Indeed, it seems necessary for Dumbledore to die when he did, to leave it to Harry to take charge of his destiny.

PatPat - May 26, 2007 9:35 am (#864 of 1297)
Edited May 26, 2007 10:38 am

Second, I don't think we can assume that Dumbledore's knowledge of LV's Horcruxes was complete. He was still putting the pieces together himself, which was why it was so important that he acquire Slughorn's untampered memory.

EXACTLY!! Which is the reason his methods for introducing the Horcruxes was gradual. Once he saw Slughorn's memory, he and Harry had a long discussion about what the Horcruxes were. I just have a hard time believing at THAT point he would not have at least broached the subject with Harry. However, I am perfectly prepared to eat crow if I am wrong about Harry being a Horcrux. I seem to be in the minority here. (I hope it's not a minority of one)

Choices - May 26, 2007 9:37 am (#865 of 1297)
Edited May 26, 2007 10:42 am

It just seems outrageous that as important as Harry's life is to the safe continuation of the wizarding world, that Dumbledore would not have helped Harry to discover a way to rid himself of this potentially life-threatening Horcrux in his scar (assuming that he is a Horcrux, which I am not). Dumbledore has done more than we can possibly know to protect Harry and to teach him as much as he possibly can so that Harry can defeat Voldemort, but he doesn't even address something that is perhaps the biggest threat of all to Harry? The one thing that could put an end to all that we hope Harry can do to save the wizarding world, is the one thing Dumbledore remains mute about. Doesn't make sense!

PatPat - May 26, 2007 9:38 am (#866 of 1297)

Thank you, Choices. You and I are in complete agreement.

Vox Gerbilis - May 26, 2007 10:55 am (#867 of 1297)

Sorry, I did not make my point clear enough. I believe one of these is true: (1) Dumbledore did not yet know or suspect that the scar was a Horcrux; (2) he was beginning to suspect it, but did not yet have enough information to consider it a viable possibility; (3) he knew or was beginning to suspect it, but wanted more information, such as how to solve the problem, before telling Harry. I suppose No 1 is problematic because it's arrogance on my part to think that a Muggle reader figured something out before Dumbledore, but that happens in literature. I'm predicting that DH will reveal gaps in DD's knowledge of Horcruxes, which will explain why he never raised the possibility with Harry.

HungarianHorntail11 - May 26, 2007 12:44 pm (#868 of 1297)
Edited May 26, 2007 2:40 pm

Dumbledore has done more than we can possibly know to protect Harry and to teach him as much as he possibly can so that Harry can defeat Voldemort, but he doesn't even address something that is perhaps the biggest threat of all to Harry? Choices

DD also left out another little tidbit of information - he never told Harry how to destroy a Horcrux. After all, DD did know Harry had to seek them out and destroy them.

I agree, Vox Gerbilis.

MickeyCee3948 - May 26, 2007 1:54 pm (#869 of 1297)
Edited May 26, 2007 2:55 pm

I agree with Vox Gerbilis & HH1 you both expressed my thoughts more gracefully than I could. I am sorry if I conveyed that DD knew for certain that Harry was the last Horcrux. I believe he had only started to assess the possibility.

Mickey

Choices - May 26, 2007 4:37 pm (#870 of 1297)

Harry did destroy a Horcrux - the diary. I think each Horcrux may have to be destroyed differently and when the time comes Dumbledore or someone will be there to help Harry. (And yes, I know Dumbledore is dead, but I'm here to tell you he isn't gone.)

Mediwitch - May 27, 2007 7:04 pm (#871 of 1297)

For what it's worth, PatPat, I also agree with you. I haven't yet decided if it's just denial, though! I really don't want Harry to be a Horcrux, but I am worried about Dumbledore's "correspondingly huger" mistakes.

HungarianHorntail11 - May 28, 2007 7:50 am (#872 of 1297)

He did destroy the diary Horcrux but does that knowledge apply to destroying all Horcruxes? Choices, is that why you believe DD neglected to tell him - it wasn't neglect after all?

Regarding whether or not DD knew. I noticed in OotP that Harry didn't tell DD about many of the times he felt pain in his scar but he was urged to. This would give leeway for DD to have ruled it out if there were times he'd expected to hear something from Harry but didn't.

PatPat - May 28, 2007 8:11 am (#873 of 1297)
Edited May 28, 2007 9:14 am

Thanks, Mediwitch. I am feeling less lonely now. As far as Dumbledore not telling Harry how to destroy the other Horcruxes, I agree with Choices. He COULDN'T. He didn't know what the protection would be surrounding the Horcruxes. I believe it is the protection, not the Horcrux itself, that is the danger. The Chamber and the Basilisk protected the diary. Harry had to get past those in order to destroy it. In the cave, there were numerous protections surrounding the locket. Dumbledore did not know what they were going to be until he got there. There is no way he could warn Harry about protections that he knows nothing about.

EDIT: Regarding whether or not DD knew. I noticed in OotP that Harry didn't tell DD about many of the times he felt pain in his scar but he was urged to. This would give leeway for DD to have ruled it out if there were times he'd expected to hear something from Harry but didn't. HH1

I don't buy this. Dumbledore was concerned enough to order Occlumency lessons for Harry. He also knew from Snape about the many times that Harry had glimpses into Voldemort's mind. Surely the thought must have crossed his mind that Harry could be a Horcrux, as it has crossed ours. But he didn't say anything to Harry. IMO, this means he dismissed it for some reason. I still cannot believe he would not have tried to help Harry remove it safely if he knew.

Soul Search - May 28, 2007 8:36 am (#874 of 1297)
Edited May 28, 2007 9:42 am

I, too, wonder why, if Dumbledore even suspected Harry's scar was a Horcrux, he didn't mention it, just to warn Harry if nothing else.

Yet, we see repeatedly, that Dumbledore doesn't like to present an idea unless he is absolutely sure of it. During the pensive-based lessons in HBP, Dumbledore makes absolutely sure that Harry knows when he, Dumbledore, is drawing an inference, rather than stating a fact.

Dumbledore doesn't know everything about Horcruxes; even in HBP, he is still studying the concept. Dumbledore isn't sure about Horcruxes, and certainly recognizes that each will be protected differently. He can't yet, tell Harry anything with his usual certainty.

We have concluded that Dumbledore's intention was to teach Harry about Voldemort's Horcruxes so Harry could finish the job of their destruction. This may not have been entirely true; it could have been that Dumbledore intended to lead the quest for the Horcruxes, probably with Harry's help. Dumbledore thought he would have more time.

So, just because Dumbledore hadn't yet told Harry about his scar does not mean he didn't suspect it was a Horcrux. Dumbledore wasn't sure it was a Horcrux or hadn't finished Harry's preparation for that, rather dramatic, information.

Choices - May 28, 2007 9:49 am (#875 of 1297)

Soul Search - "Dumbledore thought he would have more time."

I have to disagree - I think Dumbledore knew fairly exactly how much time he had left.

Jenniffler - May 28, 2007 9:56 am (#876 of 1297)
Edited May 28, 2007 11:00 am

I have a theory tied to Horcruxes.

It is that Voldemort's powers at any point are only at Harry's level of development. That would explain Harry's ability to defy Voldemort at an early age.

When Dumbledore ordered Occlumency, I think he was trying to get Harry trained in other things that Voldemort would have the ability to do but not know Harry could perform.

I also have an opinion that Snape convinced Voldemort to use Occlumency against Harry for this same reason. To keep Harry free of the desire to kill,(as in the snake incident)was the number one priority for the good guys.

I do not think Harry is a Horcrux or that he is a reverse Horcrux. I think he is an automatic inverse of Voldemort thoughts and potential. Horcruxes are supreme evil and Harry is a supreme hero for good causes. Dumbledore was obviously (to me) honing the skill of understanding the escalating patterns of Horcrux development in HBP. For this new form of evil, there needs to be new heroism.

I have posted before my ideas: to nullify the act of evil that makes a Horcrux (murder), there must be an effort to save someone's life. I am sticking to this idea until I see evidence to the contrary.

I welcome dissenting opinions.

Choices - May 28, 2007 11:30 am (#877 of 1297)

Jenniffler - "It is that Voldemort's powers at any point are only at Harry's level of development. That would explain Harry's ability to defy Voldemort at an early age."

I think Harry's ability to defy Voldemort at an early age is because Voldemort transferred some of his powers to Harry when the AK backfired. He marked Harry as his equal. Also, I think when Harry comes up against Voldemort, it is somewhat of a team effort with Hermione, Ron, Dumbledore (Fawkes), etc. lending a helping hand. I hardly think Voldemort would be feared as the greatest dark wizard of the century if his powers were only on a par with Harry's powers.

Jenniffler - May 28, 2007 12:17 pm (#878 of 1297)
Edited May 28, 2007 1:17 pm

I hardly think Voldemort would be feared as the greatest dark wizard of the century if his powers were only on a par with Harry's powers. -- Choices

Voldemort at the height of his powers was feared above all. He lost that and started anew. His knowledge and skills remained but his power was limited, almost helpless and he also relied (fed off) other. to get things done. Quirrell, Ginny(tricked to be), Peter "Wormtail" Pettigrew and Nagini played for his team. Voldemort alone showed no more than the Tom we saw meeting Dumbledore at age 11. This feebleness lasted until he got Harry's blood in him. At that moment they seemed well matched in will and intent.

I agree, Choices, that powers were transferred. I think they filtered through the protection(someone else's really good theory), since transfer of Voldemort's powers couldn't harm him.

If anything is a reverse Horcrux it is Harry's blood inside Voldy's veins.

journeymom - May 31, 2007 10:13 am (#879 of 1297)
Edited May 31, 2007 11:15 am

... Voldemort's powers at any point are only at Harry's level of development. That would explain Harry's ability to defy Voldemort at an early age....

I do not think Harry is a Horcrux or that he is a reverse Horcrux. I think he is an automatic inverse of Voldemort thoughts and potential. Horcruxes are supreme evil and Harry is a supreme hero for good causes. Dumbledore was obviously (to me) honing the skill of understanding the escalating patterns of Horcrux development in HBP. For this new form of evil, there needs to be new heroism. Jenniffler

I like your idea! I would amend it, saying I don't think this is a magical connection between Harry's development and Voldemort's development, but it's part of JKR's literary parallel. Perhaps this is what you are saying, anyway? Obviously Harry's magical power and knowledge is no where near Voldemort's. Harry has defied Voldemort since he was a baby for a few reasons together, first and foremost, his mother's sacrificial protection. And like Choices said, the unique abilities Voldemort transferred to Harry also helped, as has the assistance of friends and teachers. And Harry's own courage and quick thinking and ability to love, as well.

I have posted before my ideas: to nullify the act of evil that makes a Horcrux (murder), there must be an effort to save someone's life. I am sticking to this idea until I see evidence to the contrary.

I like this emphasis, that there must be an effort to save somebody's life associated with the destruction of each Horcrux, to counter the murder that created the Horcrux. It's similar to the theory in the essay I linked to last week, only with a positive emphasis! Again, I don't think this is some magical requirement, but rather it's a requirement of JKR's plot structure.

Jenniffler - May 31, 2007 10:52 am (#880 of 1297)

Journeymom--I don't think this is a magical connection between Harry's development and Voldemort's development, but it's part of JKR's literary parallel. Perhaps this is what you are saying, anyway?...rather it's a requirement of JKR's plot structure.

Yeah, well some people think literally, and I think literarily. I told my daughter I didn't pay much attention to the cool magic in the books. She was horrified, I tell you.

I have seen examples of a Horcrux-like object in other works of fiction. Taran Wanderer , by Lloyd Alexander had a much simpler to defeat bad guy: he took his soul and put it in the carved bone of his little finger and buried it in a tree. Inexplicably Taran finds it, keeps it, and breaks it when the evil wizard brags about it.

I love adaptations of Welsh mythology.

mona amon - May 31, 2007 6:16 pm (#881 of 1297)

to nullify the act of evil that makes a Horcrux (murder), there must be an effort to save someone's life. I am sticking to this idea until I see evidence to the contrary. (Jennifler)

It's a nice idea, but Dumbledore did not save anyone's life when destroying the ring Horcrux?

Mediwitch - May 31, 2007 6:32 pm (#882 of 1297)

I wonder if someone (Snape?) saved Dumbledore's life, leaving him with only a blackened hand.

Jenniffler - May 31, 2007 7:28 pm (#883 of 1297)

mona amon Good point! Thanks Mediwitch. That is what I was hinting at.

Dumbledore said it was a really good story, and that Snape stopped the curse before it did more damage. I just put those ideas together.

I am reaching here, but it's nice to have a personal take unlike anyone else's I've read as we prepare for our dive into the final installment of the saga.

Relics put people in a sort of mood, well it is all encompassing. It seems that the same thing applies to Horcruxes. I want the symmetry of the idea because I want Harry and Voldemort separate and polar at the final conflict. I personally like a clean break rather than a messy conflagration of connections and Psychic back-wash.

Good Evans - Jun 2, 2007 12:20 pm (#884 of 1297)

Just a thought - If a bit of LV was put in to Harry when he survived the AK as a baby. Does this mean he will be able to touch all of the Horcruxes without the need to break the protections? Assumedly LV does not need to remove the protections when he revisits the Horcruxes (he may want to check on them from time to time). I wonder if this means that Harry could have reached the locket without DD having to go through the drinking of the potion?

now what might that do to Harry's mental state if it means that DD need not have been weakened???

just a thought anyway

Solitaire - Jun 2, 2007 2:24 pm (#885 of 1297)

Well, Harry was certainly able to touch the Diary. He was also able to figure out how it worked. I wonder if any other Horcruxes will be as "revealing" to him?

Solitaire

Choices - Jun 2, 2007 2:52 pm (#886 of 1297)
Edited Jun 2, 2007 3:57 pm

I think Harry was able to touch the diary because it was more than just a Horcrux. It was designed to be placed into a present day student's hands so that the Chamber of Secrets could be reopened. Of necessity, it could not cause harm to the person who got the diary because then Slytherin's "noble work" could not be carried on. The diary Horcrux was rather more "public" than the other Horcruxes which probably carry far more dangerous protections on them and serve but a single purpose.

Mediwitch - Jun 2, 2007 4:10 pm (#887 of 1297)

Harry did try to reach the locket when it was in the icky potion of despair but was unable to reach through an invisible barrier.

frogface - Jun 3, 2007 1:10 am (#888 of 1297)
Edited Jun 3, 2007 2:13 am

Here's a theory I randomly came up with yesterday concerning the mystery Horcrux. I recently started a re-read of the series, hoping to get the end of HBP just before DH comes out, and I've been reading PS/SS very carefully. A number of people have speculated that this mystery Horcrux is some kind of object that Harry has already encountered on his adventures, and I believe I have found a decent candidate for our missing Horcrux: The Mirror of Erised. It seems random I know, but think about it for a while and it starts to make sense.

A) The mirror brings us back to Hogwarts which many of us feel sure will play a big part in book 7 whether or not it remains open as a school or even whether or not Harry will return as a student.

B) I feel sure that every book in the series has a counterpart book, apart from GoF which is the transition book from the lighter, to the darker side of the series. CoS is linked to HBP because it revolves around Tom Riddle's past. PoA is linked to OotP because they're both Marauder orientated books. They give us details on the past of Lily and James and both revolve a lot around Sirius Black. That leaves us with PS/SS and DH. The mirror provides a strong link between the two books, as the Mirror hasn't really been mentioned since the end of book 1.

C) It could provide us with yet more insight into Voldemort's past. Suppose young Tom Riddle stumbled across the mirror during his education at Hogwarts. What would it have told him about himself that he didn't already know? Maybe it showed him as the most powerful Wizard in the world, indestructible and never vulnerable ever again, needing, and wanting no one. Its not too hard to empathize with that want when we look at his past before Hogwarts.

I know this theory is rather weak considering it isn't really based on any kind of plausible evidence. But then again, what clues do we really have that point towards any other object? At the moment a random guess seems as good as any other! But feel free to pick my theory apart, I won't blame you.

PatPat - Jun 3, 2007 6:26 am (#889 of 1297)
Edited Jun 3, 2007 7:26 am

Well, as long as frogface is being brave, I will too. I posted this theory on the Dumbledore's death thread and it didn't get totally ripped apart like I was expecting, so here goes. It actually fits better here anyway. I came up with this theory a few days ago, so forgive me if I haven't worked out all of the kinks yet. But my thinking was that the Horcrux was actually IN the potion that Dumbledore drank. It's conceivable, to me at least, that Voldemort would have put the Horcrux in the potion knowing that whoever wanted the locket would have to drink it. They would then be dragged into the lake by the Inferi, thus preserving the Horcrux forever and removing what Voldemort would see to be a threat to him, the wizard powerful enough to reach his Horcrux. This would explain why Dumbledore would have to die in order to destroy the Horcrux. I haven't worked out how RAB fits into this yet. As I said the idea isn't fully formed yet, but if anyone can either make it better or shoot it down it is our wonderful forum members!

As far as your theory, frogface, I have thought about this possibility also. We do not know who owned the mirror, so it's possible that it IS a founder's relic. My only problem with this theory is that it will take some explanation as to how Dumbledore could have missed it.

rambkowalczyk - Jun 5, 2007 3:14 am (#890 of 1297)

The mirror of Erised has clawed feet--perhaps like that of a raven?

Solitaire - Jun 5, 2007 8:43 am (#891 of 1297)

Are you suggesting that the potion itself was a Horcrux, PatPat?

PatPat - Jun 5, 2007 3:03 pm (#892 of 1297)

Are you suggesting that the potion itself was a Horcrux, PatPat?

That's exactly what I'm suggesting. My thinking was that maybe Voldemort put his soul bit actually IN the potion. Thus, when the wizard powerful enough to get through the protective magic reached it, he/she would have to drink it becoming the Horcrux themselves. The Inferi would then pull the wizard into the lake preserving the wizard and the Horcrux forever. This would explain why Dumbledore HAD to die. In order to destroy one of the Horcruxes. As I said, I haven't quite figured out how RAB fits into this theory. Maybe it's crazy, but just thought I'd throw it out there and see where it takes us!

HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 5, 2007 4:15 pm (#893 of 1297)

Okay, well, it's worth a good think.

Perhaps, RAB beat him to it, hence, the jumping Inferi from in the lake. The potion could still be a lingering protection that refills itself.

Suuz Smith - Jun 6, 2007 4:47 am (#894 of 1297)

PatPat, I read your theory on the DD thread, and it did bring to mind a logic problem. If the person drinking the potion is dragged into the lake, don't they die and thus the Horcrux would be destroyed? Or if they somehow don't die, wouldn't LV have "requested" that a volunteer drink up and have thrown him/her in to preserve the Horcrux as you say?

If that were the case, there would be no need for the whole potion trap in the first place. The Horcrux would be safe in the lake.

If everything were logical though, I don't think Harry could go back in time and save himself (oooh that's a bother in PoA)-so who knows?

Choices - Jun 6, 2007 7:53 am (#895 of 1297)
Edited Jun 6, 2007 8:58 am

I think we have to ask ourselves if a rotting body with lots of openings would be a suitable container for a soul bit? There is a reason that soul bits aren't just removed and hidden in a corner or under the bed. I think they have to be contained, enclosed in something where they cannot get out or escape. I can't imagine that liquid would constitute an adequate container, not would a decaying body.

frogface - Jun 6, 2007 11:27 am (#896 of 1297)

If the potion was a Horcrux, then why was it impossible to dip anything into it, but possible to drink it? Where would this fit in?

Solitaire - Jun 6, 2007 1:37 pm (#897 of 1297)

I think Choices brings up a valid point. Additionally since a potion is fluid, couldn't it be altered by adding some additional ingredient(s) to it? It seems an awfully vulnerable thing to make into a Horcrux. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire

PatPat - Jun 6, 2007 2:44 pm (#898 of 1297)
Edited Jun 6, 2007 3:46 pm

PatPat, I read your theory on the DD thread, and it did bring to mind a logic problem. If the person drinking the potion is dragged into the lake, don't they die and thus the Horcrux would be destroyed? Or if they somehow don't die, wouldn't LV have "requested" that a volunteer drink up and have thrown him/her in to preserve the Horcrux as you say?

If that were the case, there would be no need for the whole potion trap in the first place. The Horcrux would be safe in the lake. Suuz

Well, my thought was that Voldemort would want to find out who was able to breach his protections. Dumbledore certainly thought this was the case and this was his reasoning for why the potion doesn't kill immediately. Voldemort would have been fascinated by the wizard powerful enough to reach the potion. He didn't want to force feed the potion to someone. This would not appeal to him. But preserving his soul bit inside the wizard skilled enough to reach that point would, IMO. I also don't see that the Horcrux would be destroyed if the person died. Most Horcruxes are not living things, so I don't think a person necessarily has to be alive to be a Horcrux. But I could be wrong!

I think we have to ask ourselves if a rotting body with lots of openings would be a suitable container for a soul bit? There is a reason that soul bits aren't just removed and hidden in a corner or under the bed. I think they have to be contained, enclosed in something where they cannot get out or escape. I can't imagine that liquid would constitute an adequate container, not would a decaying body. Choices

I think Choices brings up a valid point. Additionally since a potion is fluid, couldn't it be altered by adding some additional ingredient(s) to it? It seems an awfully vulnerable thing to make into a Horcrux. JM2K, of course ... Solitaire

First, I don't agree with this view of Horcruxes. The soul bit is magically contained in the object. I don't think it makes a difference how sturdy the object is or how many holes it has. A diary is certainly not very sturdy, but seemed to be adequate to store the soul bit. What's to stop someone from destroying it (like Ginny attempted to do) or altering it? If we are going to go with this definition of Horcruxes we have to throw out the Harry is a Horcrux theory (which I personally don't believe but many do) and the Nagini is a Horcrux theory (which came directly from Dumbledore. Clearly he believes it is possible for a "body" with holes to be a Horcrux. What's to stop the soul bit from escaping through the snake's mouth?)

If the potion was a Horcrux, then why was it impossible to dip anything into it, but possible to drink it? Where would this fit in? frogface

The whole point in my theory is that Voldemort WANTED the person who made it that far to drink the potion. They would then take the soul bit into themselves and become the Horcrux. The Inferi would drag them into the lake, thus preserving the Horcrux and the wizard forever. Voldemort WANTED someone to drink it.

Anyway it's just a theory that popped into my head a couple of days ago. I'm still not quite sure how RAB fits in, but other things fit with this. It would explain Dumbledore's ramblings in the cave if he had just taken a piece of Voldemort into himself. It would explain why he had to die. He had realized he was now a Horcrux and this was a way to destroy it. It would also explain why there was a potion at all. With all of the other protections, why did Voldemort have this potion that the wizard would have to drink? I always thought there was more to it. Just a thought.

Solitaire - Jun 6, 2007 4:24 pm (#899 of 1297)
Edited Jun 6, 2007 5:40 pm

The soul bit is magically contained in the object.

Except that a potion is not an object. It is a fluid substance whose properties might well be subject to alteration by adding some other substance to it--although Chemyst is probably better able to say if that is true or not. If making a Horcrux out of a living thing is risky, as Dumbledore said it was, I should think making one out of a potion would be far riskier. A potion, to be of any use, must be contained inside another object--a vial, flask, or some sort of container. It could easily be dropped or spilled, as we have seen happen with other potions.

The potion in the cave may very well be a Horcrux, but at the moment, it just doesn't make sense to me. I think the original Horcrux was the locket (since I think it was one of Voldy's earliest attempts), and I believe it had already been taken from the cave and the potion put there by whoever took it. JM2K, of course ... and I am wrong more often than I am right.

A diary is certainly not very sturdy, but seemed to be adequate to store the soul bit. What's to stop someone from destroying it (like Ginny attempted to do) or altering it?

The diary was destroyed.

Solitaire

Choices - Jun 6, 2007 4:54 pm (#900 of 1297)
Edited Jun 6, 2007 5:57 pm

I think it is in the very nature of a soul to leave a body when that body dies. Based on everything I know about the soul (granted, not a lot), that is how it works. Your soul dwells within your body until death occurs, then the soul leaves the body and goes to heaven (or whatever place a person believes in). I don't think it is in the nature of a soul to linger or stay within a dead body. I think a soul bit probably has the same inclination as a whole soul - to remain in a living body and to leave that body when death occurs. We saw exactly that happen when Voldemort's body died.

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Suuz Smith - Jun 6, 2007 4:54 pm (#901 of 1297)

Fun discussion. PatPat, it seems like you're saying both that the Horcrux wouldn't be destroyed if the person died in the lake, and that DD knew he had to die in order to destroy the Horcrux after he drank the potion. I think they couldn't both be true.

You may be right that LV wouldn't do the most easy and logical thing because of some sense of drama or trying to prove mastery over enemies. That's the only reason I can think of that he went through the whole Triwizard Tournament to make Harry grab the cup, when he could have had Moody/Bart Jr. just hand Harry a joke wand portkey to achieve the same thing.

PatPat - Jun 6, 2007 6:14 pm (#902 of 1297)

Except that a potion is not an object. It is a fluid substance whose properties might well be subject to alteration by adding some other substance to it--although Chemyst is probably better able to say if that is true or not. If making a Horcrux out of a living thing is risky, as Dumbledore said it was, I should think making one out of a potion would be far riskier. A potion, to be of any use, must be contained inside another object--a vial, flask, or some sort of container. It could easily be dropped or spilled, as we have seen happen with other potions. Solitaire

That would be true if the potion were intended to be carried around. But, by my theory, Voldemort intended the potion to sit in the cave until the point when or if someone discovered it and drank it. WHO is going to spill the potion in the cave? And it CAN'T be altered. Dumbledore tried. This is no ordinary potion. The only way Dumbledore could touch it was if he drank it.

The diary was destroyed. Solitaire

My point exactly. It seems no riskier to make the diary a Horcrux and put it into the hands of Lucius Malfoy than to make a potion a Horcrux and put it into a cave surrounded by protections that clearly only the cleverest of wizards could get by. I'm not saying I'm right. I haven't even worked out all the kinks in this theory yet. I'm simply saying I don't think it can be dismissed because a potion is too fragile to be a Horcrux.

Fun discussion. PatPat, it seems like you're saying both that the Horcrux wouldn't be destroyed if the person died in the lake, and that DD knew he had to die in order to destroy the Horcrux after he drank the potion. I think they couldn't both be true. Suuz

OK, clearly I didn't explain myself properly. What I meant was that the process of destroying the Horcrux inside of Dumbledore also killed Dumbledore. I DON'T think that his death alone would have been enough to destroy the Horcrux. I think Snape performed a nonverbal spell to destroy the soul bit. This process also killed Dumbledore. So, Dumbledore's death was the result of whatever spell destroyed the soul bit inside of him. In the seconds that they had, this was the only decision he and Snape could make. If there were more time perhaps Dumbledore could have lived and the soul bit removed safely.

Believe me, I haven't completely worked out this theory either. But at least it gives us something else to debate about until July 21st!

Choices - Jun 7, 2007 7:39 am (#903 of 1297)

But then that makes Snape a murderer and I don't believe for a minute that Dumbledore would allow someone to damage their soul even to destroy a soul bit of Voldemort's. I have to believe that Dumbledore was dying anyway and let it appear that Snape killed him, but Snape really didn't kill him and so his soul remains intact. IF there was a soul bit in Dumbledore, I think it came into him from the ring Horcrux, not from the basin potion. He might have sacrificed his arm/hand to rid himself of the soul bit, but I don't think he would let Snape kill him for that.

HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 7, 2007 12:26 pm (#904 of 1297)
Edited Jun 7, 2007 1:43 pm

If we are going to go with this definition of Horcruxes we have to throw out the Harry is a Horcrux theory (which I personally don't believe but many do) and the Nagini is a Horcrux theory (which came directly from Dumbledore. Clearly he believes it is possible for a "body" with holes to be a Horcrux. What's to stop the soul bit from escaping through the snake's mouth?) PatPat

Re: Definitions. From what I gather, a Horcrux can be stored in something which is in its useable/working state. Once the diary was destroyed (i.e. a gaping hole through its middle and ink stained throughout), the soul bit, too, was destroyed. Applying this "logic" to the theory, a dead body is no longer in its useable/working state. That is precisely why the jumping Inferi has me stumped.

According to this line of thinking, both Harry and Nagini are fit to be Horcruxes. The ring, cracked, is no longer in its working state. Can it still be worn? Of course. Can you still use the diary by writing around the gaping hole? Of course, but it is not in its intended condition, hence, no longer able to contain a soul bit. A murder is a good example, also. While the body is alive and in its working/useable state, the soul bit remains in it. As soon as Big V's body was damaged to what should have been the point of death, his soul bit was torn from it. Afterward, he went through an awful, awful lot of trouble getting it back into a useable housing for his primary soul bit.

Suuz Smith - Jun 7, 2007 5:16 pm (#905 of 1297)
Edited Jun 7, 2007 7:17 pm

Fierce Dragon- I like your idea of the Horcrux only being viable in something in a useable state. That brings up a question though of how do you destroy a Horcrux? Do you have to use some kind of magic power, or would the diary have been destroyed just as well by an ordinary toss is the fireplace? Seems that will be important in DH.

Also- sorry- this just occurred to me tonight. Wouldn't it be a hoot if Nagini turned out to be the snake Harry freed from the zoo? I checked to see what boa constrictors look like, and they do seem to fit Naginis description of having a diamond pattern and of course the zoo snake was huge. However, boas do not have fangs and certainly not ones that make poisonous bites that do not heal, as Mr. Weasley suffered.

So maybe it could only be so if JKR missed the zoology lesson on fangs and LV altered Nagini to be poisonous. But couldn't you just see LV's face when Nagini turns to Harry at a critical moment and says "Oh-it's you!" ?

(PS-put this here as Nagini is a favorite for Horcrux status.)

Madame Pomfrey - Jun 7, 2007 9:01 pm (#906 of 1297)

What exactly did Dumbledore mean when he said it was risky business to confide a part of your soul to something that can think and move for itself? I don't think Dumbledore was talking about using something mortal here. If Nagini is a Horcrux, just what would the snake do if Harry was to speak to the snake and tell it that it is Voldemort's Horcrux? But, to have put a Horcrux(accidental or not)into a human being capable of love and sacrifice would be very risky. Dumbledore told Harry that he was sure Voldemort had intended to make the final(6th) Horcrux with Harry's death. He used significant deaths. Why would he suddenly stop that pattern and use the death of an old Muggle man when he thinks Muggles are worthless? He could have at least waited and used Amelia Bones or at least someone magical.

Interview of J.K. Rowling, Detroit News, March 19, 2001

What is the meaning behind Harry's lightning bolt scar? A. There are some things I can tell you about it, and some things I can't. I wanted him to be physically marked by what he has been through. It was an outward expression of what he has been through inside. I gave him a scar in a prominent place so other people would recognize him. It is almost like being the chosen one or the cursed one, in a sense. Someone tried to kill him; that's how he got it. I chose the lightning bolt because it was the most plausible shape for a distinctive scar. As you know, the scar has certain powers, and it gives Harry warnings. I can't say more than that, but there is more to say.

JK Rowling's World Book Day Chat, March 4, 2004

Cathedral: Don't want to rune the ending, but will we be finding out more about the significance of the shape of Harry's scar in future books? JK Rowling replies -> The shape is not the most significant aspect of that scar, and that's all I'm going to say.

Suuz Smith - Jun 8, 2007 6:37 am (#907 of 1297)
Edited Jun 8, 2007 7:44 am

Further thoughts about Nagini being the zoo Boa that make the idea not so crazy. I read some where that JKR didn't realize that Snowy owls "are diurnal"- hunt during the day -and that she hoped readers would just accept Hedwig's magical nature to explain his nocturnal behavior.

So might she have just made an similar assumption about boas- that they have fangs like most snakes? In the zoo scene, the snake is "snapping" at people as it passes- something I don't think constrictors do. An indication she thought it had fangs?

The poison might be explained by the fact that LV was possessing Nagini at the time it attacked Arthur Weasley. Or perhaps it was a magical snake in the first place- remember how it was born at the zoo- not in Brazil? Maybe not a Muggle (wild) snake.

It would fit the pattern of one more character that owes a debt to Harry- Dobby, Wormtail, Buckbeak, etc. Even if Nagini is not a Horcrux, it could be important that it might not obey LV in the end due to that debt.

I have read, by the way, that Snowy owls can be both diurnal and nocturnal depending on their environment. In the Arctic it doesn't get dark part of the year so they hunt in daylight. So she wasn't wrong about them being nocturnal in England- but not because she fact checked before writing.

Choices - Jun 8, 2007 9:52 am (#908 of 1297)
Edited Jun 8, 2007 10:55 am

Suuz - "The poison might be explained by the fact that LV was possessing Nagini at the time it attacked Arthur"

The poison was there long before that. It, combined with Unicorn Blood, was what kept Voldemort alive before he got his new body. Wormtail was milking Nagini of her poison to feed Voldemort and Quirrell was drinking the Unicorn blood for him. I think it is possibly drinking the venom that gives Voldemort his snake-like appearance.

xray - Jun 8, 2007 9:55 am (#909 of 1297)

He used significant deaths. Why would he suddenly stop that pattern and use the death of an old Muggle man when he thinks Muggles are worthless? - Madam Pomfrey

I wouldn't say he thinks they're worthless. They represent all that he hates. Wouldn't one consider that significant?

I don't believe Nagini is a Horcrux at all but I do believe he used the death of the old Muggle, Frank Bryce, to create his 6th and final Horcrux.

I've said this before and maybe it deserves repeating, but Voldemort isn't stupid. He wants to live forever, not just a few extra hundred years. For that to happen, his Horcruxes must also "live" forever.

Suuz Smith - Jun 8, 2007 6:13 pm (#910 of 1297)

Choices-your comment about LV milking venom from Nagini made me look to see when LV acquired the snake and how much contact Harry has had with it. In GOF LV talks about the using the venom to regain his body before he travels- from Albania I presume. And in the graveyard scene Nagini is all around, waiting for Harry to be disposed of -I think to have him for dinner!

I don't see how the zoo snake would have gotten to Albania, and it didn't seem to recognize Harry, or Harry recognize it, in the graveyard. So it was fun while it lasted, but another theory sinks in he Inferi lake!

Madame Pomfrey - Jun 8, 2007 8:20 pm (#911 of 1297)

I've said this before and maybe it deserves repeating, but Voldemort isn't stupid. He wants to live forever, not just a few extra hundred years. For that to happen, his Horcruxes must also "live" forever. Xray

From what I understand about Horcruxes having only 1 would make you immortal as long as that Horcrux remains safe. He has already lost the diary and the ring and will continue to be immortal as long as the remaining Horcruxes are safe. So taking a chance and using a live vessel wouldn't alter his "living forever" ambition as long as he has others for backup.

Suuz Smith - Jun 9, 2007 2:52 am (#912 of 1297)

It does seem that JKR wouldn't bring up Horcruxes in living things unless it gets used somehow. Guess people think that would be in Harry if not in Nagini.

As to Horcrux location, has anyone noticed when Bella says that "in the past the Dark Lord trusted me with his most precious..."-or close to that, in Spinners End? What could be more precious than a Horcrux?

Madame Pomfrey - Jun 9, 2007 6:34 am (#913 of 1297)

That's what I thought too, Suuz, except Dumbledore said that Voldemort believes that he alone knows about his Horcruxes. It still sounds suspicious, though. Maybe Dumbledore is wrong. What else could "his most precious" be?

I hope Harry's scar is not a Horcrux. He has enough going on. But, with all the interviews concerning the scar and the Harry/Voldemort connection I can't think of a logical explanation for the phenomenon. Voldemort fired an AK, Harry was protected by Lily, the AK rebounded and hit Voldemort. How would this transfer powers and allow Harry to feel Voldemort's emotions? What else could be significant about the scar that we don't already know?

PatPat - Jun 9, 2007 7:07 am (#914 of 1297)
Edited Jun 9, 2007 8:08 am

As to Horcrux location, has anyone noticed when Bella says that "in the past the Dark Lord trusted me with his most precious..."-or close to that, in Spinners End? What could be more precious than a Horcrux? Suuz

The exact quote is: "The Dark Lord has, in the past, entrusted me with his most precious - if Lucius hadn't - " (HBP2)

The reference to Lucius immediately makes me think of the diary. Perhaps Bellatrix was actually the one entrusted with the diary Horcrux, but when she was caught it passed to her family members. Lucius then foolishly used the diary in CoS. Dumbledore implies that Lucius did not know exactly what the diary was. Perhaps Bellatrix is aware of the Horcruxes, or at least some or them, and may lead HRH to them.

Suuz Smith - Jun 9, 2007 7:39 am (#915 of 1297)

Well, this question of knowing about the Horcruxes is a dilemma. In GoF in the graveyard, LV chides the Death Eaters for thinking he was gone, saying "They, who knew the steps I took long ago to guard myself against mortal death?" How can that not mean the steps of making Horcruxes?

And if they knew he was making them, even if they didn't all know specific ones, then Snape must have known. If Snape knew and was working with DD, then how could he not have discussed with DD?

Choices - Jun 9, 2007 9:32 am (#916 of 1297)
Edited Jun 9, 2007 10:50 am

Suuz - "...has anyone noticed when Bella says that "in the past the Dark Lord trusted me with his most precious..."

There are many who think that perhaps Bellatrix was the one entrusted with hiding the Slytherin locket in the cave. R.A.B. helped her. If R.A.B. is Regulus Black, a 19 year old wizard, it would explain how he managed to get past the protections in the cave. He went along with Bellatrix to hide the locket, she got him into the cave and back out. She may have sent him in the boat to place the locket (he switched them and kept the real locket) while she managed the Inferi who might have tried to stop them. Regulus then went home, hid the locket at Grimmauld Place and was later killed - perhaps by Bellatrix. She may be responsible for killing both her cousins.

It is interesting to note that Regulus and his father died in the same year. What may have motivated Regulus to turn against Voldemort and try to get even, is the possibility that Voldemort killed his father. The father may have discovered Voldemort's dirty little secret - about being a half-blood - so Voldemort silenced him and that spurred Regulus to get revenge on Voldemort. This is part of an interesting theory that I find explains a lot of my questions.

Solitaire - Jun 9, 2007 11:30 am (#917 of 1297)

Very interesting ideas, Choices ... I like the idea that Bella might also have killed Regulus, although I can't help wondering if she wouldn't have gloated about it to Sirius.

Given what we know of Voldemort's penchant for concealing information and actions even from his DEs, I am having difficulty with the idea of his allowing others to hide those Horcruxes. On the other hand ... he did allow another to keep possession of the Diary. Perhaps he foresaw times in the future when he would need to retrieve one of his Horcruxes, assuming he suffered what would normally be a fatal (to Wizards) injury or spell. Since it is impossible to know who might be free (or willing) to help at any given time, he might have felt that having a different person responsible for each Horcrux would enable him always to have access to one of more of them ... if needed. Just something to chew on ...

Solitaire

Suuz Smith - Jun 9, 2007 1:27 pm (#918 of 1297)

OK- just for fun here's a third idea on Bella's possible Horcrux. Where have we heard a magical item referred to as someone's "Precious" before? Yes- it was Gollum’s name for the ring- and we have a definite Horcrux ring. Don't know if JKR is a Lord of the Rings fan- but she did know Gandalf. Just a thought.

It seems from all we're saying that we kind of assume the Death Eaters did have some knowledge of the Horcruxes from the evidence. So again, why did DD think they did not? Snape should have told him otherwise.

Choices - Jun 9, 2007 3:18 pm (#919 of 1297)
Edited Jun 9, 2007 4:20 pm

IF Voldemort did entrust Bellatrix and Lucius Malfoy with his Horcruxes, it is entirely possible, in fact probable, that they did not know what they had. Lucius just thought he was to give the diary to some Hogwarts student to have the Chamber of Secrets opened again, and Bellatrix may have thought she was hiding Slytherin's locket for Voldemort to keep it safe. They may have been totally unaware that these items contained pieces of Voldemort's soul.

HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 9, 2007 3:43 pm (#920 of 1297)

That is what I believe, Choices. I don't think Lucius knew what he had.

There is a bit of an inconsistency, though, when Big V mentions that others knew how far he'd gone to become immortal. If those are the steps he referred to, how could he have been secretive about it? Was DD mistaken?

Choices - Jun 9, 2007 4:03 pm (#921 of 1297)
Edited Jun 9, 2007 5:04 pm

I believe when Voldemort said to his Death Eaters that they knew the lengths he had gone to in becoming immortal, they did not know about the Horcruxes. I believe he had shared with them his efforts to obtain the Sorcerers Stone so he could make the Elixir of Life. He probably told them about drinking the Unicorn blood and the venom from Nagini and how he lived off small creatures in the forest until he could regain a physical body, but I doubt he told them about making Horcruxes. Voldemort trusts no one, not even his closest Death Eaters, and the Horcruxes are subject to being found and destroyed by a disgruntled, not-so-loyal servant. I would bet Voldemort told no one about his special life assurance objects.

journeymom - Jun 9, 2007 4:48 pm (#922 of 1297)

Given what we know of Voldemort's penchant for concealing information and actions even from his DEs, I am having difficulty with the idea of his allowing others to hide those Horcruxes. On the other hand ... he did allow another to keep possession of the Diary. Perhaps he foresaw times in the future when he would need to retrieve one of his Horcruxes, assuming he suffered what would normally be a fatal (to Wizards) injury or spell. Since it is impossible to know who might be free (or willing) to help at any given time, he might have felt that having a different person responsible for each Horcrux would enable him always to have access to one of more of them ... if needed. Just something to chew on ... -Solitaire

I believe when Voldemort said to his Death Eaters that they knew the lengths he had gone to in becoming immortal, they did not know about the Horcruxes. I believe he had shared with them his efforts to obtain the Sorcerers Stone so he could make the Elixir of Life. He probably told them about drinking the Unicorn blood and the venom from Nagini and how he lived off small creatures in the forest until he could regain a physical body, but I doubt he told them about making Horcruxes. Voldemort trusts no one, not even his closest Death Eaters, and the Horcruxes are subject to being found and destroyed by a disgruntled, not-so-loyal servant. I would bet Voldemort told no one about his special life assurance objects.

Maybe we can compare Lucius and the Diary with Hagrid and the Sorcerer's Stone. Dumbledore trusted Hagrid to bring the Stone from Gringotts to Hogwarts.

We also can compare Voldemort and Dumbledore in this instance (well, we do that throughout). Dumbledore does not share what he knows about Horcruxes with anybody except Harry, and indirectly with Ron and Hermione. JKR says Dumbledore is alone, without equal or confidant. The same is true of Voldemort.

Contrast, though, that Dumbledore does trust people, while Voldemort likely trusts no one.

Suuz Smith - Jun 9, 2007 5:33 pm (#923 of 1297)
Edited Jun 9, 2007 6:55 pm

If Bella did have something, she may not have known it was a Horcrux, but she did know it was "most precious", so she knew LV was entrusting her with something special.

And the quote about the Death Eaters knowing the steps LV took to become immortal comes when he is asking them why they did not come to find him after Godric’s Hollow. He says it before he tells them anything about the Sorcerer's Stone or his path to being reborn. He really is saying that at the time he was blasted by the AK, the Death Eaters knew the steps he had taken to avoid mortal death. He is blaming them for not believing he was still alive and coming to find him.

So unless he made up some story about some other scheme to avoid dying, then he told them about making Horcruxes. He might not have told them what the objects were, but he told them something. Don't know how you can read this statement any other way: "...why did this band of wizards never come to the aid of their master..." "They, who knew the steps I took long ago to guard myself against mortal death?"

Solitaire - Jun 9, 2007 7:00 pm (#924 of 1297)

I've always had the idea that not many people knew what Horcruxes were or how to create them. If this is so, I can't imagine Voldemort sharing that information with others. I do not think he would want to worry about anyone else having access to immortality. He is too greedy for power. Nor does he trust anyone, as Choices points out. It would be dangerous to give others the knowledge of how to become immortal, and it would be more dangerous, I think, to let them know the whereabouts of one's own means to immortality. While I can believe Voldemort may have given his Horcruxes to others for safekeeping (maybe), I do not believe he would have told them what they had. It would be far too risky.

Journeymom ... I, too, have noticed the common tendencies of "working alone" and keeping secrets that are shared by both Dumbledore and Voldemort. The difference between them seems to be that Dumbledore has tended to withhold information in order to protect others, while Voldemort withholds information in order to protect himself and keep others "off balance."

Solitaire

Suuz Smith - Jun 9, 2007 7:59 pm (#925 of 1297)

Yes, it would seem to be a bad idea for Voldemort to tell the Death Eaters about Horcruxes- but again, he flat out says they knew about a plan he had to avoid dying. They knew before he tried to kill Harry. So as much as we think it was not like him to share information, he did tell them about some sort of action that he had taken "long ago". I would say his motivation was to prove how invincible he was to them.

So if he didn't tell them the truth, that he was making Horcruxes, do you think he made up something else to convince them he wouldn't die?

Solitaire - Jun 9, 2007 9:44 pm (#926 of 1297)

Voldemort knew exactly which buttons to push to get people to follow him. Some enjoyed the free reign to torture and kill. Others believed his "racial purity" mantra. Still others probably longed for power and recognition in the Wizarding World. I think he could have told them anything and they'd have believed him.

Given Lucius’ handling of the Diary, do you suppose he knew what it really was? If he did know, then Voldemort has reason to question his loyalty. If Bella was in charge of safeguarding the locket, what does it say about her that it appears to be missing? Voldemort seems to hold both Bella and Lucius responsible for the loss of the prophecy ... and he appears to be punishing Lucius.

Given Voldemort's inability to trust, it seems unlikely to me that he would confide something so crucial to his continued existence in others.

Solitaire

Snuffles - Jun 10, 2007 12:12 am (#927 of 1297)

I'm really sorry to interrupt the conversations. I was re-reading HBP, trying to keep things fresh for DH when I came across something. It has probably been mentioned lots of times on this thread before, so apologies.

I know that people have wondered whether the tiara Molly was going to let Fleur wear for her wedding was any relation to the founders, and if it could be a Horcrux. I noticed on page 493 UK edition, in the Sectumsempra chapter. Harry is trying to hide his copy of Advanced potion making before showing his school books to Snape. He is in the Room of Requirement and puts his book behind a cage. He places a bust of a warlock on top to help him remember where it is, but then he also notices a tarnished tiara nearby and places that on the busts head. It got me wondering whether that tiara could belong to one of the founders and that is one of the Horcruxes Harry is looking for.

Will Harry even need to get his advanced potion making book back to notice the tiara?

This thread had over 200 posts on it and I didn't have time to read them all, so again, apologies if this has been covered many times before.

MickeyCee3948 - Jun 10, 2007 6:36 am (#928 of 1297)
Edited Jun 10, 2007 7:38 am

I believe that Bella's opinion of her value to Tom exists in her mind alone. We have been told by DD that Tom trusts no one and I agree with him. The DE's may know that Tom has special magic to protect him and keep him from death's door but I doubt that any (including Snape)knows about the Horcruxes and how many there are.

It seems that the ONLY person who knew about the Horcruxes other than DD, Harry(hence Hermione and Ron) and Tom was Slughorn and we know how much he has attempted to keep that thought a secret.

I doubt if DD even told Harry. DD's trust in Snape was extremely deep but I don't believe it was that deep. DD had a way of putting off people who wanted information that he didn't feel like divulging. But that's JM2K's.

Mickey

Soul Search - Jun 10, 2007 7:11 am (#929 of 1297)

MickeyCee3948,

You have inspired a thought. We think that Slughorn altered his memory so Dumbledore wouldn't find out he told Tom Riddle about Horcruxes. What if he altered his memory so Voldemort would know Slughorn didn't have the memory of his asking about Horcruxes anymore.

PatPat - Jun 10, 2007 7:26 am (#930 of 1297)

Given Lucius’ handling of the Diary, do you suppose he knew what it really was? Solitaire

According to Dumbledore: "Lucius did not know what the diary really was." HBP23

This could be speculation, but I doubt it. Dumbledore was pretty clear during HBP to tell Harry when what he was saying was speculation rather than certainty. He also says that the Death Eaters did not know what Voldemort meant when he said he had gone "further than anyone along the path that leads to immortality." I believe that Dumbledore is fairly certain of this.

As far as the Tiara, Snuffles, yes we have speculated about that. I think it's a possibility. The only problem I have with the theory is that the protection seems rather weak. In order to get to the locket Horcrux, Harry and Dumbledore had to brave doors that wanted blood, a boat that only Dumbledore could find, a potion that Dumbledore had to drink and contributed to his death, and Inferi that came out of the water to attack them. And whatever the protection was surrounding the ring, it caused Dumbledore's blackened hand. I'm having a hard time believing that the tiara was just thrown into the room of requirement amid a bunch of junk.

Choices - Jun 10, 2007 9:17 am (#931 of 1297)

I tend to agree with PatPat about the tiara in the Room of Requirement. It's a bit too carelessly hidden to be of much value. Perhaps it is there as a red herring and the real Horcrux tiara is the one that belongs to Molly's aunt? It's another "wait and see".

xray - Jun 10, 2007 11:57 am (#932 of 1297)

The only problem I have with the theory is that the protection seems rather weak. - PatPat

That may be true but it could have been his first one, one he intended to retrieve in order to better hide it when he returned to Hogwarts years later.

journeymom - Jun 10, 2007 2:19 pm (#933 of 1297)

Snuffles, considering how often I've made some brilliant observation, only to find that somebody said the exact same thing only a few posts ago, I have no problem with you or anybody rehashing something that's already been discussed.

Notice that Helga Hufflepuff wears a tiara on her wizard portrait from JKR's web site.

HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 10, 2007 4:30 pm (#934 of 1297)

xray, I believe the first Horcrux was the diary and it was carelessly placed with Lucius.

Just imagine if Lucius knew of Big V's Horcruxes when Big V was in his vapor state. Something tells me the slippery friend would have spent every last dime chasing them down and destroying them himself. No, no, he must have meant some other means of his attempts at immortality when he spoke at the grave.

PatPat - Jun 10, 2007 4:31 pm (#935 of 1297)

That may be true but it could have been his first one, one he intended to retrieve in order to better hide it when he returned to Hogwarts years later. xray

Possible. But I doubt it. It is implied that the ring and the diary are Voldemort's first Horcruxes. He is wearing the ring when he questions Slughorn about Horcruxes in HBP.

Snuffles, considering how often I've made some brilliant observation, only to find that somebody said the exact same thing only a few posts ago, I have no problem with you or anybody rehashing something that's already been discussed.

Notice that Helga Hufflepuff wears a tiara on her wizard portrait from JKR's web site. journeymom

I think we have all done this at some point. I have often come up with a theory that I thought was an astounding revelation and then later learn that someone else has already thought of it!

As far as the tiara, I DO think that A tiara is a Horcrux. I'm not convinced it is the one in the ROR though. But I could be wrong! Wouldn't be the first time.

xray - Jun 10, 2007 4:42 pm (#936 of 1297)
Edited Jun 10, 2007 5:43 pm

I just think that we were shown the secret hiding room of the RoR for a reason. I have a theory that Harry will use the bloodstained axe he saw in there to help Nearly Headless Nick completely sever his head (I think it was the same axe used to kill him in the first place!), but I see this as tiny conflict closure, if you want to call NHN's lamenting about not being able to join in on the Headless Hunt a conflict Nevertheless, I believe there is more to the room than we know, and I think it has to contain a Horcrux even if the tiara we spotted in HBP isn't one.

Choices - Jun 10, 2007 4:50 pm (#937 of 1297)
Edited Jun 10, 2007 5:51 pm

xray - "I have a theory that Harry will use the bloodstained axe he saw in there to help Nearly Headless Nick completely sever his head"

One question.....how do you finish beheading someone who has been dead for 500 years? When Nick was petrified by the Basilisk, McGonagall had to conjure a fan to waft Nick up to the hospital ward. Evidently there is no way to grab hold of a ghost to move it, so how would you go about completing a botched beheading? Just curious!

xray - Jun 11, 2007 7:03 am (#938 of 1297)

How do you give mandrake potion to a petrified ghost?

Magic!

I suppose there will be some sort of spell or ritualistic ceremony that will require the exact ax used in the killing.

Choices - Jun 11, 2007 8:48 am (#939 of 1297)

We know that at the Deathday party, the ghosts could pass through the food and get a slight taste of it. I think the Mandrake potion was simply poured over Nick and he somehow got enough of a dose to unpetrify him.

Yes, I agree, "magic" answers a multitude of questions. :-)

Solitaire - Jun 11, 2007 9:13 am (#940 of 1297)
Edited Jun 11, 2007 10:15 am

The ghosts are certainly capable of moving objects, so perhaps an object is capable of being used on a ghost.

About the tiara in the RoR ... The fact that it is in the RoR doesn't necessarily preclude its being a Horcrux. Didn't Voldemort leave the ring at the Gaunt house? In retrospect, that may seem a bit careless. The tiara could have been made into a Horcrux and left at Hogwarts some years ago, where it was inadvertently put into the RoR by someone (Filch?) who just thought it was a tarnished old tiara. Could this have been what Voldemort was after when he first came to Hogwarts to seek a teaching position? BTW, I like the suggestion that the tiara belonged to Hufflepuff.

Solitaire

Choices - Jun 11, 2007 9:20 am (#941 of 1297)

I think we have seen only one ghost that is capable of moving things - Moaning Myrtle is able to make the water splash in the toilet when she goes down into the u-bend. I don't think we have seen any other examples of ghosts moving objects. Peeves can, but then he isn't a ghost, is he!

Solitaire - Jun 11, 2007 9:44 am (#942 of 1297)

Oh, you are right. I was thinking of Peeves and the chandelier. I'd forgotten he was not a ghost!

Soul Search - Jun 11, 2007 10:37 am (#943 of 1297)

Professor Binns turns pages and hands things out, doesn't he?

Steve Newton - Jun 11, 2007 10:46 am (#944 of 1297)

Not that I remember. He may turn the pages of ghostly books.

TheSaint - Jun 11, 2007 11:25 am (#945 of 1297)

The description of the cabinet in the room of requirement interested me. Looked like it had been splashed with acid. I had wondered whether this cabinet might have been Tom's and he tried, without success, to set it aflame, as Dumbledore did to his.

I tend to think that Tom was in awe of DD, his powers and Tom's inability to effect or sway him in any way.

Or maybe the two headed bird was an attempt to create a living Horcrux? The only reason I doubt the tiara in the ROR is that Harry easily grabbed it and placed it upon the bust. Had it been a Horcrux, wouldn't it have been protected by enchantments?

PatPat - Jun 11, 2007 4:56 pm (#946 of 1297)

About the tiara in the RoR ... The fact that it is in the RoR doesn't necessarily preclude its being a Horcrux. Didn't Voldemort leave the ring at the Gaunt house? In retrospect, that may seem a bit careless. The tiara could have been made into a Horcrux and left at Hogwarts some years ago, where it was inadvertently put into the RoR by someone (Filch?) who just thought it was a tarnished old tiara. Could this have been what Voldemort was after when he first came to Hogwarts to seek a teaching position? BTW, I like the suggestion that the tiara belonged to Hufflepuff. Solitaire

The ring was in the Gaunt house, yes. But it wasn't just thrown there casually. According to Dumbledore, Voldemort "hid it, protected by many powerful enchantments." (HBP23) Since Harry was able to touch and move the tiara, it doesn't sound like there were any such protections there.

Choices - Jun 11, 2007 6:03 pm (#947 of 1297)
Edited Jun 11, 2007 7:04 pm

The Saint - "I had wondered whether this cabinet might have been Tom's and he tried, without success, to set it aflame, as Dumbledore did to his."

I doubt Tom had anything as valuable as a Vanishing Cabinet. A Vanishing Cabinet is very different from an ordinary wardrobe cabinet where clothes are kept. Tom didn't seem to have many possessions at all at the orphanage and no money to purchase an expensive Vanishing Cabinet. Even if he did, he could hardly bring it to Hogwarts with him.

Solitaire - Jun 11, 2007 7:07 pm (#948 of 1297)
Edited Jun 11, 2007 8:09 pm

Choices, he might not have owned the cabinet ... but can't you see him sneaking off to the RoR to practice on an old cabinet he found there? Perhaps he did not then know that it was a vanishing cabinet.

It's true that the ring had a lot of spells and enchantments around it, but what kind of enchantments? Did they prevent it from being touched or even seen (by the average Wizard), or were they simply enchantments to prevent someone from removing it? Perhaps Voldemort wouldn't have considered the Tiara as needing many enchantments, if it were hidden away at Hogwarts in the RoR--which we know is different things to different people. He may have figured (remember how arrogant and often short-sighted he can be) that what the room was to him was surely different than it would be to anyone else who would chance to enter it. That being the case, he might have figured anything he left there would be safe. Again, just idle speculation ...

Solitaire

TheSaint - Jun 11, 2007 8:54 pm (#949 of 1297)
Edited Jun 11, 2007 9:56 pm

Choices - I doubt Tom had anything as valuable as a Vanishing Cabinet.

Harry did not hide the book in the Vanishing cabinet did he? Isn't it a wardrobe? Like in his dorm room? None of them own the furniture they use at Hogwarts. The room is filled with things that could have been damaged by magic gone astray, I don't think any of the students owned those either.

Choices - Jun 12, 2007 7:00 am (#950 of 1297)

Sorry, maybe I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that the vanishing cabinet had been Tom's and he had splashed it with acid to burn it like Dumbledore had burned his wardrobe at the orphanage. It's possible I just needed to turn off the computer last night and go to bed. LOL :-)

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MickeyCee3948 - Jun 12, 2007 10:17 am (#951 of 1297)
Edited Jun 12, 2007 11:18 am

I agree with those who believe that the tiara in the room of requirement could be a Horcrux. Perhaps the enchantments on the tiara in the ROR need to be activated by some sort of magic being used in conjunction with the touching. The diary was touchable but needed to be used to make it dangerous. You could (probably)pick up the ring but the act of putting it on your finger would be what made it hazardous to your health. Perhaps putting the tiara on would activate the enchantments that protect the Horcrux. It could even be a more stringent requirement. A female needing to put the tiara on to activate it.

Choices, there hasn’t been any canon that a Horcrux can't be touched or moved has there? Only that extremely strong magic is needed to destroy it. I am asking you since you seem to be the smartest among us as to canon.

Mickey

HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 12, 2007 12:37 pm (#952 of 1297)

If there is a Horcrux in the ROR, I wonder if one needs to be a student or faculty member (i.e., present member of the school) in order to access it.

PatPat - Jun 12, 2007 4:03 pm (#953 of 1297)
Edited Jun 12, 2007 5:06 pm

The diary was touchable but needed to be used to make it dangerous Mickey

That's true but the diary was unique among the Horcruxes. It had a dual purpose. It was a Horcrux and it was a means to open the Chamber of Secrets after Voldemort had left Hogwarts. Remember Dumbledore was surprised by the casual way Voldemort treated the diary. We DO have canon that Horcruxes can't be touched or moved without encountering numerous dangerous enchantments. The locket in the cave. Even Dumbledore could not touch the locket without first fighting through dangerous protections and drinking a highly dangerous potion. We did not see Dumbledore's hunt for the ring, but he states that it was hidden and protected by "many powerful enchantments." (HP23) This implies that he had to get through these enchantments BEFORE he could lay hands on the ring. I'm not saying that it is impossible that the tiara in the ROR is a Horcrux. I'm simply saying that the lack of any kind of protection is room for doubt.

Choices - Jun 12, 2007 5:21 pm (#954 of 1297)
Edited Jun 12, 2007 6:24 pm

Mickey - "Choices, there hasn’t been any canon that a Horcrux can't be touched or moved has there? Only that extremely strong magic is needed to destroy it. I am asking you since you seem to be the smartest among us as to canon"

LOL I wish that were so, but I'm hear to learn and discuss just like everybody else.

As far as I know there is no canon that covers all Horcruxes equally. As PatPat said, we have encountered Horcruxes that were highly dangerous to move or touch. We saw one (diary) that wasn't. There are more out there and I believe each will have to be handled differently. Whether they will be dangerous to touch or move remains to be seen, but I would guess that they will not be a snap to disarm and destroy. Harry will have to be very careful which wire he cuts to defuse those little time bombs.

shepherdess - Jun 15, 2007 10:05 am (#955 of 1297)

Do you suppose that the protections that LV put on the Horcruxes might have become stronger and more dangerous with each new Horcrux?

It seems to me that the point (aside from seven being a magical number) of having more than one Horcrux, would be to ensure that even if one was destroyed, he'd still have parts of his soul and thus his "life". Perhaps as time passed, he became more paranoid about the safety of the Horcruxes he'd already made, and therefore more determined that the next one be protected even better. Since the diary was the first, he wasn't that worried about protections. After all, he was young then, and (no offense meant to anyone) but young people tend to believe that nothing will happen to them (or in this case--the diary).

Then, of course, the question would be, not only "what are all the Horcruxes?", but "which order did he create them in?".

Solitaire - Jun 15, 2007 11:01 am (#956 of 1297)

Is it possible that the cursed necklace was a Horcrux, or has that already been nixed?

Soul Search - Jun 15, 2007 12:51 pm (#957 of 1297)
Edited Jun 15, 2007 1:57 pm

I think the necklace is a great candidate for a Horcrux. What better protection than killing anyone who touches it? I also note that Snape was the last to have the necklace.

Dumbledore found the ring Horcrux because he detected dark magic when he went to visit the Gaunt hovel. Dumbledore also detected such in the cave. So, protections on a Horcrux could serve to alert a searcher of something of interest. It would be prudent for Voldemort to have placed strong protections on some of his Horcruxes, but not on all six. We have noted that the diary did not have strong protections just so it could be handled.

Harry has touched two other Horcrux candidates: the #12 Grimmauld Place locket and the RoR tiara. If all the remaining Horcruxes were protected against touching, then these must be ruled out.

Also, "touching" may be different from "destroying." That is, protections may kick in only when a spell is cast at the Horcrux object, or something like that.

Madame Pomfrey - Jun 15, 2007 1:38 pm (#958 of 1297)
Edited Jun 15, 2007 2:41 pm

I thought the necklace was a very good candidate, also. The only problem is that it hasn't been connected to any of the founders. We didn't get a history of the necklace other than it has killed many Muggles which is suspicious being Tom Riddle hates Muggles. It will be interesting to see Rowena Ravenclaw's Wizard of the Month picture, won’t it?

Solitaire - Jun 15, 2007 6:13 pm (#959 of 1297)

Since Riddle worked in Borgin & Burkes after Hogwarts, couldn't he have made the necklace a Horcrux and hidden it in plain sight? Surely the label noting that it is cursed and has killed many Muggles would discourage most people from wanting to touch it.

Something about opals: In Sir Walter Scott's novel Anne of Gierstein, the heroine's soul is trapped inside a cursed opal. Opals are also thought by some to be bad luck if worn by anyone if not his birthstone. Could opals be Hufflepuff's stone? When is her birthday?

Solitaire

gusmania - Jun 16, 2007 4:31 am (#960 of 1297)

Solitaire, I had the feeling that the necklace could be Ravenclaw's. I taught Helga Hufflepuff had a cup. And as Luna Lovegood (Ravenclaw) is wearing a necklace, ...

Choices - Jun 16, 2007 7:34 am (#961 of 1297)

Yes, Hufflepuff had a cup with a badger engraved on it. Riddle stole it from Hepzibah Smith when he stole the Slytherin locket.

Solitaire - Jun 16, 2007 10:23 am (#962 of 1297)

The reason I asked about Hufflepuff is that I could not find the stone associated with her house.

Gryffindor = rubies

Slytherin = emeralds

Ravenclaw = sapphires

Hufflepuff = ?

Could anyone else find it in any of the books? I looked back through the books and could not find it ... although it is MORE than possible that I missed it.

Solitaire

Jenniffler - Jun 16, 2007 2:54 pm (#963 of 1297)
Edited Jun 16, 2007 3:54 pm

I think yellow sapphires might have been the things in the House hourglasses, but topazes are not far-fetched. Whatever it is, is surely must be the toughest to mine and rarest to acquire(just like Hufflepuffs to be good hard workers).

Choices - Jun 16, 2007 4:44 pm (#964 of 1297)

Doesn't Hufflepuff wear yellow Quidditch uniforms? A yellow stone would be appropriate for them, but I don't think it is mentioned in the books. Seems like I have looked for that also and never found it.

Suuz Smith - Jun 17, 2007 6:57 am (#965 of 1297)

The necklace seems to resemble the diary in that it's not well hidden, and that it is a weapon. Perhaps Tom Riddle was able to find it when he returned to Hogwarts applying for the DADA job? If he found he tiara and necklace together he might have ditched the tiara in the ROR and taken the necklace. If the tiara is as valuable as the Weasley's, it is a strange thing to leave in the ROR - doesn't seem like the true owner would ever leave it there. So perhaps a thief who wasn't interested in monetary value, but just needed one relic?

There is a vivid image in HBP of red ruby gem stones that have fallen to the floor like tears from the broken Gryffindor hourglass- but are the stones different for each house?

Choices - Jun 17, 2007 8:43 am (#966 of 1297)
Edited Jun 17, 2007 9:44 am

Suuz - "...but are the stones different for each house?"

Yes - Gryffindor is Ruby.....Slytherin is Emerald.....Ravenclaw is Sapphire.....and Hufflepuff - (???we don't know) Some yellow stone would be a good guess as their Quidditch uniform is yellow.

Nathan Zimmermann - Jun 17, 2007 10:24 am (#967 of 1297)
Edited Jun 17, 2007 11:27 am

If I had to guess I would argue for a tiger's eye or yellow topaz because of the traditional connection to elemental earth because, the of four individual elements acknowledged by the ancient Greeks earth is the element most closely associated with Helga Hufflepuff.

Solitaire - Jun 18, 2007 9:44 am (#968 of 1297)

What are the odds of Lily or James having inadvertently and unknowingly nabbed something that had been turned into one of the early Horcruxes ... and then having hidden it somewhere in their home in GH? Just wondering ...

Solitaire

Vox Gerbilis - Jun 19, 2007 5:49 pm (#969 of 1297)

Previously, when the Harry-as-accidental-Horcrux question was discussed, opponents of this theory argued that LV did not successfully kill anyone when he made the AK curse against Harry, therefore, the requisite soul-splitting did not happen.

It occurred to me that it might be the evil intent to murder, rather than the death itself, that causes the soul to split. LV fully intended to murder Harry; Harry's unforeseeable and unprecedented survival did not diminish his moral culpability in any way. Thus, the Horcrux spell was in effect, LV's soul was split, but lodged not in the intended object, but Harry's scar.

Admittedly, I still cannot explain what the intended Horcrux object was.

With the release of DH less than five weeks away, I'm becoming more apprehensive about posting theories and predictions. In a very short time, I may be eating crow, while the scar-Horcrux skeptics do their victory dance.

PatPat - Jun 19, 2007 5:57 pm (#970 of 1297)
Edited Jun 19, 2007 6:58 pm

It occurred to me that it might be the evil intent to murder, rather than the death itself, that causes the soul to split. LV fully intended to murder Harry; Harry's unforeseeable and unprecedented survival did not diminish his moral culpability in any way. Thus, the Horcrux spell was in effect, LV's soul was split, but lodged not in the intended object, but Harry's scar. Vox

In HBP, Slughorn says that the soul is split "By an act of evil - the supreme act of evil. By committing murder. Killing rips the soul apart." (emphasis mine) He says the ACT of murder not the intention. I cannot believe that simply intending to kill someone is enough to split the soul. Otherwise, Lupin and Sirius would both have split their souls in PoA when they fully intended to kill Wormtail. Harry intended to kill Sirius but found he couldn't do it. Does this split his soul? No way. It is the act that does the splitting.

Solitaire - Jun 19, 2007 6:19 pm (#971 of 1297)
Edited Jun 19, 2007 7:22 pm

Suppose there is a soul fragment lodged in Harry's scar. Harry and Voldemort do battle, and Voldemort kills Harry ... or so he thinks. Instead, however, the Horcrux encased within Harry's scar has the effect of reanimating Harry. He then goes after Voldemort, who is so freaked out upon seeing him that he has a heart attack ... and falls through the veil. Just kidding ...

I guess the bottom line is that perhaps such a scenario would put Harry and Voldemort in a situation where Voldemort was on his last soul fragment ... the one within himself. Okay, it's just an idea. I haven't worked out the bugs yet!

Solitaire

Vox Gerbilis - Jun 20, 2007 2:02 am (#972 of 1297)

Good points, PatPat, but I'm not persuaded.

In criminal law, we speak of mens rea, or the mental state required to be guilty of a crime, and the actus reus, or the actions required to commit a crime. LV's mens rea and actus reus at Godric's Hollow were of a much higher degree of culpability than Harry, Sirius and Lupin in the Shrieking Shack. Harry, and Lupin were acting in hot blood, enraged by Pettigrew's betrayal of the Potters. Strictly speaking, Sirius was not acting in hot blood, having had months to think about what he was doing, but he was partially unhinged from his experiences of the past 12 years, and not fully in control of his faculties. All three were motivated by righteous anger and a thirst for justice. In contrast, LV was a cold-blooded, calculating, killer, seeking only advancement of his own evil interests.

Furthermore, LV tried to use the AK curse, which is unforgivable under Wizard law (and, perhaps, under Wizard moral codes). He did everything that was necessary and sufficient to complete the murder. In contrast, there's no indication that anyone in the Shrieking Shack intended to use the AK curse (Harry didn't even know it), and ultimately, all three stopped themselves before completing the killing.

Thus, LV committed the act with the requisite level of intent, though unforeseen circumstances intervened. None of the other three had the same level of intent, or committed the same degree of actions.

(I'm inferring that the Wizard world, like Muggle law, recognizes circumstances in which a killing is justifiable or excusable. However, it seems that use of the AK curse automatically negates these defenses. I'm not entirely sure of this, but it's my hypothesis.)

HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 20, 2007 2:47 am (#973 of 1297)
Edited Jun 20, 2007 3:48 am

But there was at least one tear - Lily's death and James's. Who is to say Lily's tear wasn't used as a result of the charm she set into place? Big V has ordered not to have Harry killed, so the charm has worked twice if this is true. We don't know what the AK would have done in the graveyard because it never hit Harry. We know for certain the wands don't work properly against each other and we know for certain of an AK that did not work against Harry.

Solitaire, that is just the point. Harry's Horcrux scar would open a tremendous amount of possibilities - both viable and exciting. Though I won't say I like the idea of Harry having a bit of Big V's soul, I will say it seems to fit very well.

Magic Words - Jun 20, 2007 5:04 am (#974 of 1297)

I think we may find out that a Horcrux in Harry allows him to get past the defenses in the other Horcruxes more easily than someone else would have. The pieces could recognize each other, so to speak.

Solitaire - Jun 20, 2007 8:47 am (#975 of 1297)

Magic Words, I wonder if that could be why the Diary had a different effect on Harry than it did on Ginny ...

gusmania - Jun 20, 2007 10:56 am (#976 of 1297)
Edited Jun 20, 2007 11:56 am

But, for Harry it was easy to defend himself against the Imperius curse. I rather think that's why the diary didn't have a big effect on Harry.

Steve Newton - Jun 20, 2007 12:21 pm (#977 of 1297)

When Harry fends off the Imperius Curse a voice in his head asks "why though." I suspect that this voice, which recurs, is evidence of a presence other than Harry inside of him. Possibly a Horcrux.

Choices - Jun 20, 2007 12:24 pm (#978 of 1297)

But, but, but.....doesn't everyone have that little voice? It's called a "conscience" and I carry on conversations with mine all the time. Don't you? ;-)

Steve Newton - Jun 20, 2007 12:39 pm (#979 of 1297)
Edited Jun 20, 2007 1:41 pm

This voice is odd and evolves over time. In POA it encourages Harry to kill Sirius. (The Shrieking Shack scene.) I have posted my references on the POA read-a-long thread.

I also don't see how resisting the Curse could be called a conscience issue.

legolas returns[/b] - Jun 20, 2007 1:03 pm (#980 of 1297)

I would say that it is the owners brain reactivating rather than a conscience. Most people would think that the thoughts were there own. The brain seemed to be overwhelmed with the spell casters thought or what they wanted you to think.

Jenniffler - Jun 20, 2007 1:15 pm (#981 of 1297)
Edited Jun 20, 2007 2:15 pm

I'm with Choices on this one. I think for myself that it is internal dialogue weighing the intruding thoughts of Imperio.

Steve Newton has a point. I suppose that will of mind is more along the lines of what we are seeing here, not someone's moral makeup

Could a Horcrux have a conversation with itself or with its former host? .

legolas returns - Jun 20, 2007 1:22 pm (#982 of 1297)
Edited Jun 20, 2007 2:23 pm

I guess maybe that the Horcrux would not communicate unless it was right by the owner i.e. being held a couple of inches from the persons head. It may then try and encourage the owner to activate it by "talking".

I don’t believe it can talk over long distances because Voldemort did not know that the diary was destroyed.

Choices - Jun 20, 2007 5:24 pm (#983 of 1297)

I like the way Jenniffler put it - internal dialogue. That is much better than "conscience" - it's just our little inner voice that sometimes we argue with concerning whether we should or shouldn't do something.

MickeyCee3948 - Jun 20, 2007 7:34 pm (#984 of 1297)

I believe as most of you are aware that Harry's scar is the final Horcrux. I also believe that HRH learn how to remove the Horcrux from Harry.

The scene on the cover of the book is where Harry and Tom are fighting in the veil room of the MOM. Harry is reaching for the Horcrux which has been transferred to another object. Tom does not want it anywhere near the veil and is trying to repel it. Harry then throws it through the veil and Tom falls through or is assisted through the veil by the trio. JM2K's

Mickey

xray - Jun 21, 2007 7:40 am (#985 of 1297)

The scene on the cover of the book is where Harry and Tom are fighting in the veil room of the MOM. - Mickey

Actually we don't know if that's the veil room of the MOM. Mary Grande PrÈ said the curtains where the same ones from book 1. It's a "curtains up - curtains down" sort of thing.

So, although there are curtains, we can't say for sure it's the veil room because they're not the veil curtains.

me and my shadow 813 - Jun 21, 2007 1:13 pm (#986 of 1297)

xray, thanks for that info about the curtains. Didn't know that...now I don't think it's the DoM.

Solitaire - Jun 25, 2007 8:51 pm (#987 of 1297)

I've been thinking rather a lot about the Horcruxes and soul fragments lately, and I have been wondering ... What if the original soul fragment residing within Voldemort was destroyed the night his body was vaporized? The vessel in which it was residing--his body--was certainly vaporized. What if the only reason he didn't die was that the remnants of his soul contained in the other five or six Horcruxes were tethering him to this earth? It would certainly make Harry's job simpler: Just find and destroy the remaining Horcruxes, and Voldemort would go pfffft!

Then again, perhaps the very simplicity of it is why it isn't so. It's too easy. It was just a thought ...

Solitaire

TwinklingBlueEyes - Jun 26, 2007 7:25 am (#988 of 1297)

'tis a very interesting thought indeed!

legolas returns - Jun 26, 2007 8:12 am (#989 of 1297)
Edited Jun 26, 2007 9:19 am

Tom Riddles diary appears to Harry to be a normal blank Muggle diary until he spilled ink over it. He knew it was from 50 years before and belonged to Tom Riddle-so he kept it. Tom said that Ginny fed him her secrets/fears which lead to its eventual activation. But if nobody had written in the diary it would have been inactive.

My question is that you might have an object that has some magical properties but how would you tell that it was a Horcrux? How do you destroy the Horcrux bit and would you not risk being taken over.

Dumbledore obviously had to put the ring on otherwise his hand would not have taken on the dead appearance. But how would you avoid someone accidently activation the Horcrux? There must be something needed to activate it beyond putting it on otherwise they would all be found by now. Ok so the fake Horcrux was hidden very carefully but it sounds like the ring was just discarded.

Gryffindors sword only had his name written on it. If it hadn’t come out of the hat it could have been a fake. We know objects that have gone missing but wasn’t there an unknown object. How can Harry find the unknown Horcrux that possibly belongs to Gryffindor when he does not know what it looks like?

Solitaire - Jun 26, 2007 8:30 am (#990 of 1297)

I'm wondering if Harry won't have to do some exploring at Hogwarts ... perhaps in the Chamber of Secrets. Now that the Basilisk is dead, perhaps it would be safe to explore. This makes me wonder, however ... just how many Wizards have been in the Chamber ... and how long has it been since it was used (other than when Harry and Voldemort were there)? Do you suppose Dumbledore explored it after Harry brought Ginny out of it? Could another Horcrux be hidden there?

Solitaire

phuze - Jun 26, 2007 8:42 am (#991 of 1297)

Legolas,

The ring was magically hidden. In HBP Dumbledore says:

'...I stumbled across the ring hidden in the ruins of the Gaunts' house." "...He hid it, protected by many powerful enchantments, in the shack where his ancestors had once lived..." "never guessing that I might one day take the trouble to visit the ruin, or that I might be keeping an eye out for magical concealment."

I think that Harry is going to find all of the remaining Horcruxes very well protected and hidden (except for maybe the locket). Just like you, I wonder how Harry is going find and neutralize them and how will he find out what the unknown one (from Gryffindor or Ravenclaw) is.

Phuze

Choices - Jun 26, 2007 8:47 am (#992 of 1297)
Edited Jun 26, 2007 9:48 am

We know that the chamber was opened 50 years ago when Tom Riddle was in school. Before that, I would guess that Slytherin himself was the only one to be in it since he created it and place the Basilisk in it. We know that only a Parselmouth can gain entry to the chamber - the memory of Tom Riddle guided Ginny to open the chamber and then Harry got in. Since we do not know if Voldemort has been able to get into the school and thus into the chamber, it is possible that anything could be hidden down there. It would certainly be a safe place for a Horcrux to be hidden since only a Parselmouth could get in. I am unsure whether Dumbledore is a Parselmouth or not - I haven't seen any definite evidence that he is or isn't.

Solitaire - Jun 26, 2007 9:24 am (#993 of 1297)
Edited Jun 26, 2007 10:25 am

He was certainly aware that it was being spoken when he and Harry observed the Gaunts. Remember that he asked Harry if he could understand what Morfin was saying to Bob Ogden (I think that is who it was). Of course, that could just have been because he heard the hissing and knew that it was Parseltongue rather than actually understanding it.

Solitaire

Choices - Jun 26, 2007 12:53 pm (#994 of 1297)

I have no doubt that he recognizes it when he hears it, but whether or not he understands it - I don't know.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Jun 27, 2007 6:53 am (#995 of 1297)
Edited Jun 27, 2007 8:07 am

Considering that Dumbledore could speak Mermish (sp), remembering that Gawp had to be taught to speak in an understandable fashion (English), boy was that an oxymoron! I think Dumbledore had a wide command of languages and even if he could not speak Parseltongue, he could understand it. I for one, think he could speak it also.

Remember, "Yes, indeed; a rare ability, and one supposedly connected with the Dark Arts, although as we know, there are Parselmouths among the great and the good too." HBP, 276 Scholastic

Mrs Brisbee - Jun 27, 2007 7:05 am (#996 of 1297)
Edited Jun 27, 2007 8:15 am

I was wondering if the Sorting Hat could have translated the Parseltongue for Dumbledore at an earlier viewing of the memory. One fourth of the Hat's brain was contributed by Salazar Slytherin, and Slytherin was a Parselmouth. I wonder if it would be possible to impart that skill to an object?

TwinklingBlueEyes - Jun 27, 2007 7:11 am (#997 of 1297)
Edited Jun 27, 2007 8:24 am

Remember, "Yes, indeed; a rare ability, and one supposedly connected with the Dark Arts, although as we know, there are Parselmouths among the great and the good too." HBP, 276 Scholastic

'tis also possible that it may have come from one of the other founders, if indeed that "rare ability" was imparted to the Sorting Hat. "...there are Parselmouths among the great and the good too."

Edit: "Dumbledore approached the wall of the cave and caressed it with his blackened fingertips, murmuring words in a strange tongue that Harry did not understand." HBP pp 558, Scholastic

Choices - Jun 27, 2007 8:33 am (#998 of 1297)

"Dumbledore approached the wall of the cave and caressed it with his blackened fingertips, murmuring words in a strange tongue that Harry did not understand." HBP pp 558, Scholastic

But if Harry didn't understand it, it obviously wasn't Parseltongue Dumbledore was murmuring.

TwinklingBlueEyes - Jun 27, 2007 8:59 am (#999 of 1297)

True, but it was yet another language...

Choices - Jun 27, 2007 9:05 am (#1000 of 1297)

:-) True, I've no doubt Dumbledore is quite gifted with languages. Those he doesn't speak, he probably understands.

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Potteraholic Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:34 am

TwinklingBlueEyes - Jun 27, 2007 9:09 am (#1001 of 1297)

And post 1000, congrats Choices!

But I'm a silly little millimeter longer, :LOL:

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 27, 2007 12:44 pm (#1002 of 1297)

I got the impression that Dumbledore understands Parseltongue.

I just re listened to the books. One thing that struck me was when Hepzibah showed Tom the cup and locket she said they have powers she has not tested (p. 436 HBP Scholastic Hardbound). How would those powers react to becoming a Horcrux, especially the cup? I hope that Harry will discover the cups powers and they will help him destroy the Horcrux. The locket would be especially dangerous. It would want to help Voldemort. LPO

Madam Pince - Jun 27, 2007 3:29 pm (#1003 of 1297)

This thread had over 1000 posts on it that I hadn't read and I just don't feel up to catching up, so I apologize if this has been thought of already.

Does anyone else think it's odd that Salazar Slytherin (a male) would own a locket? It never even occurred to me until late last night (I get some of my best ideas right before I fall asleep... ) Personally, I don't know any males who own lockets -- as far as I know they are a strictly feminine accessory (especially the jeweled, flowery-initialed one we see on the cover of the Bloomsbury adult edition.)

I could see him perhaps giving a locket engraved with his initial to a female that is important in his life. Could this be a clue that we are going to meet some new female character in DH -- perhaps Slytherin's wife or daughter? I'm thinking about a "love" connection that could possibly figure into the resolution of the series -- love conquering all like Lily's love protecting Harry. Any ideas?

Choices - Jun 27, 2007 5:09 pm (#1004 of 1297)

We have to remember that Slytherin lived over a thousand years ago. I think it was quite likely that males wore large lockets - perhaps with pictures of their wives or sweethearts inside. I have always thought that the large, heavy looking Slytherin locket would be more appropriate for a man than a woman. Look at pictures of the kings from that long ago, they are adorned with heavy gold chains and medallions and lockets.

Solitaire - Jun 27, 2007 5:29 pm (#1005 of 1297)
Edited Jun 27, 2007 6:30 pm

Madam Pince, I have to admit that I have never seen a man wear a locket, either, and I'm surprised I didn't think about that before. I'll agree that the locket on the book looks rather large ... but perhaps it has been enlarged to show us the detail. The real locket could be much smaller. I can't remember ... does Harry mention it being unusually large when Merope was wearing it?

If the locket did indeed belong to a woman, then perhaps the woman for whom it was originally made was Slytherin's wife ... and perhaps this is how JK Rowling will introduce us to the "important and classified spouses." Just a thought ...

Solitaire

Allison R - Jun 27, 2007 6:55 pm (#1006 of 1297)

The locket hasn't ever been opened successfully by anyone (that we know, anyway)-- is it possible it's not a locket at all, but a pocket watch or something more "manly"?

Solitaire - Jun 27, 2007 7:23 pm (#1007 of 1297)

Since Jo has written the object in question as a locket and Marvolo refers to it as a locket, I'm going to accept that it is, indeed, a locket. If it were a watch or something a man would wear, I believe Marvolo would probably have been wearing it rather than Merope. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire

Madam Pince - Jun 27, 2007 7:29 pm (#1008 of 1297)
Edited Jun 27, 2007 8:41 pm

Soli, excellent point about the "important and classified spouses." I've often wondered about that and thought it would be Dumbledore's, but maybe it will be Slytherin's!

I thought about the time/era difference -- that comes up all the time with my hobby of Civil War re-enacting. Things were definitely done differently in different eras. I know what you mean about the heavy chains that kings wore, but somehow I still never thought of them as being lockets. Prior to the advent of photographs, it was common to wear jewelry containing hair of the loved one -- it sort of served as a type of "picture" of them, in a way. But men usually wore it in a watch-case or a watch chain or even a ring, not a locket -- women wore the lockets, as well as bracelets, rings and watch accessories. This was 150-200 years ago, though, not 1000. I am not familiar with jewelry from that time period. It would be interesting to know.

I thought the Bloomsbury cover art looked like a dainty, feminine locket rather than big and heavy -- I thought it was just big because it was a close-up view of it. JKR did describe the one at 12GP as being heavy, though, right? Maybe whatever's inside it is heavy? Ewwwww...

Solitaire - Jun 27, 2007 7:51 pm (#1009 of 1297)

I thought it was just big because it was a close-up view of it.

That's kind of how I've thought about it.

Allison R - Jun 28, 2007 12:31 pm (#1010 of 1297)

If it were a watch or something a man would wear, I believe Marvolo would probably have been wearing it rather than Merope

Excellent point, Soli! You're right, of course... It must be a locket of some sort after all.

Solitaire - Jun 28, 2007 12:42 pm (#1011 of 1297)

Allison, I say that only because Marvolo had zero respect for Merope. His treatment of her was shameful, and I believe that if he'd felt the locket (or whatever) was appropriate for him to wear ... he'd have worn it. He had a very large ego, IMO ... not unlike Tom Riddle, Jr.

Solitaire

Allison R - Jun 28, 2007 1:38 pm (#1012 of 1297)

You're absolutely right, Solitaire. Another excellent point! He was proud enough of the locket that someone had to be wearing it, and even though he treated her like chattel, Merope was the only one would could display his treasure for him.

PatPat - Jun 28, 2007 4:14 pm (#1013 of 1297)

OK, I may be kicked out of the Harry Potter club for this, but what is the "important and classified spouses" everyone is talking about? I'm drawing a complete blank on this!

Choices - Jun 28, 2007 5:04 pm (#1014 of 1297)

JKR said that some of the professors at Hogwarts were married and that the information about them is important, but classified. She left it totally unexplained what she meant by classified - did she classify it herself because to reveal it would tell too much, or did she mean that Hogwarts kept that information classified from the students. We still don't know, but hope it will be revealed in DH.

Madam Pince - Jun 28, 2007 5:27 pm (#1015 of 1297)
Edited Jun 28, 2007 6:29 pm

PatPat, there is a thread here on the Forum called "Important and Classified Spouse -- Who and Why?" that delves into the question. Actually the original quote by JKR doesn't say anything about "important and classified" -- it goes like this:

Q: Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses?

JKR: Good question - yes, a few of them, but that information is sort of restricted - you'll find out why...

I suppose the Founders were also professors...

PatPat - Jun 28, 2007 7:45 pm (#1016 of 1297)
Edited Jun 28, 2007 8:46 pm

Thanks, Choices and Madame Pince! Very interesting. I have to believe this has something to do with Snape, but I'll address it on the proper thread.

Solitaire - Jun 28, 2007 7:56 pm (#1017 of 1297)

I'm curious, PatPat ... why do you think "Important and Classified Spouse" has to do with Snape?

PatPat - Jun 29, 2007 4:47 am (#1018 of 1297)

Soli,

JKR told us that Snape had been loved at some point in his life. We also know that spouses of Hogwarts staff are going to be important. I'm just conjecturing from these two pieces of information that maybe Snape was married at some point. It wasn't a full-blown theory or anything! Just a tiny little thought.

Madam Pince - Jun 29, 2007 6:55 am (#1019 of 1297)

While perusing "Accio Quote" I just came across another reason why my "Locket-Horcrux Belonged to a Salazar female love" might have a problem. JKR said that we pretty much have the whole main cast of characters by now -- no new major characters in Book 7. I would think a true love of Salazar would be a main character, so that may axe that idea.

Maybe not really "main," though, if she just gets barely mentioned... oh who knows. Anyway, I'll still say Salazar didn't wear that locket himself.

Mrs Brisbee - Jun 29, 2007 7:05 am (#1020 of 1297)

Wizard-of-the-Month Salazar Slytherin on Rowling's website is wearing the locket.

Choices - Jun 29, 2007 8:48 am (#1021 of 1297)

Aha, thanks Mrs. Brisbee! I just love it when I'm correct about something.....it happens so seldom. :-) LOL

Solitaire - Jun 29, 2007 9:39 am (#1022 of 1297)
Edited Jun 29, 2007 10:40 am

PatPat, I keep remembering this statement of Jo's: Who on earth would want Snape in love with them, that is a very horrible idea. While Snape may have been in love once, that does not sound very promising for a relationship as potentially long-term as a marriage. I see Snape as more ambition-driven, particularly in those years immediately following his exit from Hogwarts. I can't believe a wife would have fit in with his DE plans. It also seems unlikely that he would have married while performing something as risky as being a double agent/spy for Dumbledore. That would have been terribly irresponsible, and whatever Snape is, I do not see him as being irresponsible. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire

Madam Pince - Jun 30, 2007 8:02 am (#1023 of 1297)
Edited Jun 30, 2007 9:02 am

Wizard-of-the-Month Salazar Slytherin on Rowling's website is wearing the locket. -Mrs. Brisbee

***Sigh...*** Fine. So Slytherin is a girly-man. I still don't understand a man wearing a locket. For what it's worth, the necklace on the W-O-T-M picture looks a lot more "masculine" than the one on the Bloomsbury adult cover which was the one that got me thinking. And it's silver, not gold, but it does have an "S," so I suppose it's intended to be the locket. Who is the artist for those things, anyway?

PatPat - Jun 30, 2007 8:06 am (#1024 of 1297)

I'm with you, Madam Pince. I have never heard of a man wearing a locket. And I agree with the argument that, if the locket were really intended for a man, Marvolo would have worn it instead of putting it on Merope. BUT, it does seem that the WOM picture has Salazar wearing it. Weird.

Luna Logic - Jun 30, 2007 8:09 am (#1025 of 1297)

I think that in the Middle Age a (rich) man wearing a locket was not usual. I have in mind some paintings (but no precise example !)

PatPat - Jun 30, 2007 8:30 am (#1026 of 1297)

OK, I've just checked with my History buff mother and she says that you are correct, Luna. Men did wear lockets back then with pieces of their wives' or girlfriends' hair in them. SO, I think we can probably extrapolate that the locket was indeed Slytherin's, but that he probably did have a wife or girlfriend. HOW this information helps us I'm not sure yet, though!!

Solitaire - Jun 30, 2007 9:40 am (#1027 of 1297)
Edited Jun 30, 2007 10:42 am

I didn't know about lockets with hair ... but I do know about rings with locks of hair. Jane Austen (one of Rowling's favorite authors) used one prominently in Sense and Sensibility, and it was worn by Edward Ferrars. Perhaps his brother Robert would have been more the locket type. He was certainly described as "a great coxcomb" and was excessively fussy about his accessories and trinkets. (Can you ever forget the toothpick case?) LOL Do you suppose Slytherin fit that category?

Solitaire

Vox Gerbilis - Jun 30, 2007 10:34 am (#1028 of 1297)

I don't think it's unreasonable to infer that Salazar Slytherin wore the locket. Like others have commented, high-status men in medieval times wore heavy chains, so a locket would not seem inconsistent with that era's standards of masculinity. Also, the WW does not necessarily follow Muggle standards of masculine and feminine accoutrements (hence Archie in his flowered nightgown at the Quidditch World Cup). As for Merope wearing the locket, that could just reflect changing attitudes of what's appropriate for men and women, just as it's no longer considered normal for men to wear lacy shirts or hair ribbons.

I really can't see Slytherin as a Robert Ferrars type coxcomb. He was too much of a bully. Probably Gilderoy Lockhart is the most similar JKR character to Robert Ferrars.

Solitaire - Jun 30, 2007 10:50 am (#1029 of 1297)
Edited Jun 30, 2007 11:51 am

You're right, of course, Vox. I was just teasing about the coxcomb business. Bullies usually have something else on their minds besides their appearances (Lucius Malfoy excepted, perhaps ... he seems to be rather concerned about his appearance, although I could be allowing movies to contaminate there). Gilderoy Lockhart is absolutely the Rowling equivalent of Robert Ferrars. I wonder I never thought of it before!

Solitaire

MickeyCee3948 - Jun 30, 2007 2:48 pm (#1030 of 1297)

I believe that a great many of the lockets worn by men back then were used as snuff boxes also.

Mickey

Nicholas Schouten - Jul 3, 2007 10:05 am (#1031 of 1297)
Edited Jul 3, 2007 11:05 am

Aaaaccckkk Mickey!!!

If that were the case, then surely the ring was almost successful as a snuff box--it almost snuffed the life out of DD!

-Nick

Choices - Jul 3, 2007 10:26 am (#1032 of 1297)

LOL Good one, Nick! Snuff box - LOL

Hagsquid - Jul 3, 2007 11:01 am (#1033 of 1297)

Snuffles. heh.

PatPat - Jul 4, 2007 10:23 am (#1034 of 1297)

OK, we started discussing whether Voldemort would have replaced a destroyed Horcrux over on the Horcrux-poll thread, which really wasn't the proper place. SO, I decided to take the initiative and move it over here. My opinion is that Voldemort would not have replaced the diary Horcrux. To my understanding, it was the splitting of his soul into 7 pieces that was important to Voldemort. Should he replace a destroyed Horcrux, his soul would be split into more than 7 pieces.

Choices - Jul 4, 2007 10:37 am (#1035 of 1297)

Once again, my thoughts exactly PatPat. :-) Sort of scary, isn't it. LOL

Mediwitch - Jul 4, 2007 10:56 am (#1036 of 1297)

Yep, I agree too. "Isn't seven the most magically powerful number?" or however Tom Riddle worded that question to Slughorn.

Hagsquid - Jul 4, 2007 11:54 am (#1037 of 1297)

Well, one could argue that he would now have split his soul seven *times.*

Or that there would currently be seven pieces of his soul available. . .

me and my shadow 813 - Jul 4, 2007 3:17 pm (#1038 of 1297)
Edited Jul 4, 2007 4:36 pm

Seems like folks are eager to debate this so, although I'm not too keen on "arguing" about Vold making a Horcrux to replace diary, since I am one who voted Yes on the poll, I'll toss in my two knuts. Two main points I considered in my opinion are:

1) Since a soul is technically split each time one commits murder, to me it seems the number of soul fragments existing and preserved within a physical object is more important than the number of "splits", which, in Voldy’s case, would amount to thousands. To me, if one Horcrux were to be destroyed and the number of fragments was down to six, he would feel more vulnerable to death. Hence, he would make another Horcrux to return his Preserved Fragments to the magical number of seven.

2) I feel we were told of a specific murder by Vold himself (according to Severus) in book 6 in order for the connection to be made in book 7. Seems like a strange thing to mention for no reason. This combined with the equally curious mentioning (a few times) of the Special Services Plaque (and recent book 7 illustration given of a plaque/badge) have me believe the two are linked.

Who knows but that's my feeling at this point. We'll see soon enough, eh?

~edited for clarity

PatPat - Jul 4, 2007 4:17 pm (#1039 of 1297)
Edited Jul 4, 2007 5:18 pm

OK, fair point, MAMS, but I guess I'm looking at this from more mathematical terms (I am a math teacher after all). Dumbledore specifically stated that the Horcrux that he destroyed was "a seventh of Voldemort's soul." This, to me, means that the part in Voldemort's body is also a seventh of his soul. To me, it's like marbles. If I take a group of marbles and split them equally into seven different boxes, each box has a seventh of the marbles regardless of how many individual marbles there are. Similarly, the part of soul in Voldemort's body is a seventh of his whole soul. It doesn't matter how many pieces there are, it's still one seventh. BUT, if he takes a piece and uses it in a new Horcrux, that new piece and the piece in his body are no longer one seventh of his soul. Here's where the problem lies, IMO. He wanted a seven-part soul, meaning that each Horcrux is one-seventh of his total soul.

me and my shadow 813 - Jul 4, 2007 4:31 pm (#1040 of 1297)

Even if a Horcrux contained 1% of a soul it would still prevent physical death. This seems to me the most important thing to Vold, not necessarily the mathematical proportions. Perhaps you think more like DD and I think more like Vold ; )

PatPat - Jul 4, 2007 5:03 pm (#1041 of 1297)

Except that Voldemort SPECIFICALLY asked about a 7-part soul. If the proportions weren't important, why bring it up?

me and my shadow 813 - Jul 4, 2007 5:54 pm (#1042 of 1297)
Edited Jul 4, 2007 6:54 pm

I'm not sure how you arrive at each soul fragment being exactly 1/7 of Voldy’s soul. He made his first Horcrux during school. If he split his soul in half to make the ring, he would have 1/2 of a soul embodied when he killed Hepzibah to make the cup Horcrux, then would have 1/4 of his soul embodied for the third Horcrux, etc. Perhaps elaborate on how you came to the "marble" analogy as I cannot understand it. Voldemort "SPECIFICALLY" asked about a 7-part soul, not of equal proportions but of 7 parts. There is no way to my knowledge, unless you can show me, how he could make Horcruxes of equal parts when making them at different times, each time using what remained of his embodied soul.

Before Vold specifically asked about a 7-part soul, I believe Slughorn's description was something like "you take the torn portion" and not anything more detailed than that. I do not understand what your insistence on this matter is based upon, but as I said earlier I'm also not up for a debate. Your guess is as good as mine, according to each of us, and we'll see soon enough.

Hagsquid - Jul 4, 2007 6:16 pm (#1043 of 1297)

You guys with your "we'll see soon enough." :p I think you're missing the point of a discussion board.

I also seriously doubt that JKR is going to go into detail during the seventh book about whether or not the soul was split into seven equal parts, or just seven parts. Nope. I fear we may have to discuss this one out and draw a best guess effort I'm afraid. Razz

PatPat - Jul 4, 2007 6:48 pm (#1044 of 1297)
Edited Jul 4, 2007 7:49 pm

MAMS, DUMBLEDORE stated that the ring was one-seventh of Voldemort's soul. "However a withered hand does not seem an unreasonable exchange for a seventh of Voldemort's soul." (HBP23) Now, Dumbledore could have been speaking figuratively rather than mathematically, true. Clearly I am taking Dumbledore's word as fact which tells me that each piece is exactly one-seventh of Voldemort's soul. I, of course could be wrong. I'm simply stating my opinion.

Hagsquid - Jul 4, 2007 6:51 pm (#1045 of 1297)

Wizards are known to be "bad with logic." Wink

Regardless of all other factors, there would have been seven things that need destroying if Voldie has had his way. Even if 50% of his soul was in the ring, it would have been 1/7 of the things that need destroying.

shepherdess - Jul 4, 2007 7:01 pm (#1046 of 1297)
Edited Jul 4, 2007 8:02 pm

When you murder someone, your soul is split. If Voldemort wanted his soul in seven parts, he needed to murder six people, splitting six parts off his soul, and make six Horcruxes to hold them. Those six soul parts, plus the soul part still in his body, make seven parts. And seven is the most magical number.

Ok, I know and understand all that. What I don't understand is this:

Voldemort has murdered more than six people. We don't know how many. but for every one of those murders, his soul was split. He may only have six (or less now) soul pieces housed in Horcruxes, but because he has killed other people, none of those pieces can actually equal 1/7 of the total soul. Doesn't that kind of blow his "most magical seven part soul" theory?

And another question is: how much of the soul is split off when you commit a murder? If it splits in half each time, that also blows the 1/7 theory. Say you commit one murder and your soul is split in half. Now you only have 50% of your soul left in your body. When you commit the second murder and your soul is split in half again, you now only have 25% of your soul left in your body. If you continue this pattern until you have killed six times, you will only have approximately 1.56% of your soul left in your body. And that's if you have never murdered anyone else.

Hmmm...only 1.56% of a soul in your body, and 50% in one of your Horcruxes? That would be one valuable Horcrux! And no wonder Voldemort doesn't seem very human!

On the other hand, if Voldemort planned the whole theory out and murdered six times, each time splitting off 1/7 of his soul and placing it in a Horcrux, it could all come out even. Except that 1)I doubt that one can control how much of your soul splits off when you commit a murder, and 2)Voldemort has murdered more than six people.

Or maybe it just doesn't matter what the size of the each soul piece is, as long as you have seven parts saved somewhere.

But then I want to know if that is supposed to accomplish anything more than just being a "most magical number". Surely there's no way you can take all those soul fragments and put them back into your body to make yourself "whole" again? And even if you could, Voldemort wouldn't want to do that--it would defeat the purpose of splitting them in the first place. And even if he did, it wouldn't make him whole because, like I said--he's killed more than six people. So he has fragments that have split off and... I don't know... been lost somewhere that he can never get back.

If each soul piece has to be destroyed in order for him to die, then I guess it assures him seven "lives". But if that's the case, he only has seven lives, and those can be lost one at a time until there are no lives left. Unless, of course, he keeps splitting more pieces off and storing them in Horcruxes. But how small can your soul become before you no longer have enough soul left to keep you alive? I mean, in the above mentioned scenario, if he kills one more person, he'll only have 0.78% of his soul left.

Anyway, if there's one thing we should have learned by now, it's that you can't explain things in the Potterverse mathematically because Jo doesn't write them from that stand point.

Wow! Sorry for being so wordy.

Hagsquid - Jul 4, 2007 7:07 pm (#1047 of 1297)

I wonder what happens to the soul-pieces if you don't store them neatly away in a Horcrux.

Choices - Jul 4, 2007 7:08 pm (#1048 of 1297)

I always thought that since Voldemort killed all those others, his soul was torn, but he didn't remove any of the soul bits and perhaps they eventually reformed or got back together with his main soul. It was only when he tore his soul and removed the bit that it counted towards the seven part soul. Does that make any sense at all? LOL

Hagsquid - Jul 4, 2007 7:12 pm (#1049 of 1297)
Edited Jul 4, 2007 8:14 pm

Actually, that makes perfect sense.

I wonder if the torn pieces work like electrons in a complex compound. The containers share the entire soul. That way, if you have six Horcruxes, each has exactly 1/7 of your soul. If one is destroyed, the soul redistributes itself to the other containers, and each container ends up with 1/6 of your soul.

If you kill someone, your soul is split up, and a portion of it is left in limbo for whatever reason. This would also justify DD's comment about Voldemort not knowing that a Horcrux has been destroyed. He's killed so many people that the feeling of his soul being in limbo is old hat to him.

Though this really doesn't help explain DD's comment about destroying 1/7 of VD's soul... Unless you justify it with the need to destroy seven total things in order to destroy VD.

me and my shadow 813 - Jul 4, 2007 7:28 pm (#1050 of 1297)
Edited Jul 4, 2007 8:51 pm

PatPat, since you are a math teacher I can see where you'd draw that conclusion. I took it as a loose expression in context of their discussion. A quote from that chapter lent itself to my sense of foreshadowing that the diary could and would be replaced. Harry asks DD if Vold intended Lucius to smuggle the diary into Hogwarts, and DD replies: "Yes he did, years ago, when he was sure he would be able to create more Horcruxes, but still Lucius was supposed to wait for Voldemort's say-so, and he never received it, for Voldemort vanished shortly after giving him the diary."

Just before this, DD told Harry "I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your death."

This says to me Vold gave Lucius the diary "shortly" before preparing to make his "final Horcrux" with Harry's death, while fully prepared to make "more Horcruxes" if the diary was destroyed at Hogwarts while opening the Chamber. So there were already five Horcruxes made at the time, Harry's death was to be number six, and he would make more if he needed to.

As far as the non-Horcrux splits, I believe it literally when Slughorn says all murders split the soul. I personally would say they are severed and lost to him forever, no matter how powerful he remains. A distinct difference is made by JKR between these "crucial parts of himself" that have been lost and the fact that he still has his entire mind with him. I don't think there is more than a wisp of soul left in Vold, yet he operates at full mental capacity. Ironic he cannot feel when they are destroyed, even with all that brain power.

*edit: Hagsquid, your post #1045 sums it up.

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Hagsquid - Jul 4, 2007 7:34 pm (#1051 of 1297)

Just before this, DD told Harry "I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your death."

This is an interesting point. Why is DD positive that Voldemort was planning this? There is no evidence to suggest that Voldemort *knew* the prophecy would even come up, and he was at the height of his power when he tried to kill Harry. Wouldn't he have made all of his Horcruxes before even trying to rise to power? I suppose he was probably saving the last one for that extra special kill. Smile

me and my shadow 813 - Jul 4, 2007 7:44 pm (#1052 of 1297)

shepherdess, that's my feeling as well. How could Vold split his soul into seven equal parts before committing the necessary murders? How can a wizard decide how to split his soul when it occurs unconsciously, but if he can, where do these "on reserve" soul fragments reside to await their new vessel? It is a good question because we know Vold murdered his family quite a while before making the ring into a Horcrux, so it is possible and could support PatPat's theory.

Good night everyone!

Solitaire - Jul 4, 2007 8:09 pm (#1053 of 1297)

Wizards are known to be "bad with logic." Wink

Yes ... but Dumbledore seems to be an exception to this, as one who pays close attention to Muggle affairs and world happenings in general.

Yes, we do know Voldemort has murdered many people. Three were knocked off with the Riddles, right? We know that both Lily and James got it, as well as Bertha and Frank. That's 7 right there. Voldemort didn't literally murder Cedric, but it was his wand that was used (remember the Priori Incantatem!) and on his orders that it was done. So, yeah ... he has committed way more than 7 murders.

I, too, have wondered about the percentages of his soul that are in the various Horcruxes, because it would seem that each Horcrux would have an exponentially (is that the right word?) smaller fragment of soul ... but perhaps that is the number rather than the amount that is important. If it is true that the earlier Horcruxes had larger remnants of his soul, well, then there is less left to destroy, isn't there, since the (presumably) first two Horcruxes--the Diary and the Ring--would have contained 75% of the soul ... right? (Remember that language rather than math is my strength, so please be patient with me. LOL)

Solitaire

shepherdess - Jul 4, 2007 8:35 pm (#1054 of 1297)

That would be correct assuming that 1)that is how the splits work, and 2)the diary and the ring were indeed the first two Horcruxes created. In addition, if the locket were the third Horcrux, and if it is destroyed, that would bring it up to 87.5% of the total soul destroyed.

Also, if this is the way it works, then I wonder if a Horcrux containing a smaller fragment of soul would be less dangerous/easier to destroy.

But I still think that, because this is based on mathematics, it's probably not how it works.

Jenniffler - Jul 4, 2007 8:56 pm (#1055 of 1297)
Edited Jul 4, 2007 9:57 pm

While I find math a fascinating way to make sense of things, I reserve the right to not apply it to Horcruxes. In effect, the amount of soul matters not as much as the fact that it is identifiable as part of an individual's soul. While we recognize most portraits and artifacts generally are not possessed of pieces of souls, Horcruxes are. Soul rips not contained in Horcruxes could be like ripped paper, hanging together by fibers. A shredded soul residing in Lord Voldemort would fit with his altered and hideous current appearance. A soul without a Horcrux permanently keeping the tear apart might mend itself by attempting to act like a whole soul. Voldemort has purposely and deliberately ripped his soul countless times. So while I might grant the idea that the rips might cluster together, I doubt they are in the same shape as before the countless murders.

Solitaire - Jul 4, 2007 10:11 pm (#1056 of 1297)
Edited Jul 4, 2007 11:11 pm

Jenn, that reminds me of some mathematical truth I remember about the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. But even if all those parts still existed, I agree that they would be so twisted and misshapen that they would not really be like a soul that is intact.

Interesting comment about LV's shredded soul mirroring (there's that M word again) his hideous appearance. Have you ever read The Picture of Dorian Gray? Whenever I think of Voldemort's appearance, I think it mirrors the inhuman thing he has become. In fact, I believe he has already reached the "worse things than death" point of which Dumbledore spoke. Think about it ...

He has neither loved nor known love.

He has no close friends.

He does nothing that enriches the world for his being in it.

The only life he has had has been spent fearing and attempting to cheat death.

All of his great and powerful talents have been dedicated to killing and destroying; he has built nothing.

What kind of life is that? Shallow, empty, meaningless ... worse than death, if you ask me.

Solitaire

Mediwitch - Jul 5, 2007 5:07 am (#1057 of 1297)

Ooh, Solitaire, I often think of The Portrait of Dorian Gray in relation to what Voldemort has done to himself. There are some interesting parallels. Voldemort's transgressions are so hideous, they show up on his face, however.

Paul Potter - Jul 5, 2007 5:55 am (#1058 of 1297)

Just a thought on how he can decide how much of his soul to split, could he have created a spell that is able to remove the amount of his soul that he wants after he has committed the murder.

This would mean that he wouldn't have been able to transfer part of his soul after trying to kill Harry.

Feel free to shoot the ideas down

Jenniffler - Jul 5, 2007 6:49 am (#1059 of 1297)

LOL Paul Potter, I'm now imagining Voldemort looking at his soul like a pie. A wedge for the diary, a little bit more in the snake... all served with a scoop of ice cream!

Paul Potter - Jul 5, 2007 9:43 am (#1060 of 1297)

Well maybe he thought all this murdering is a piece of cake LOL

PatPat - Jul 5, 2007 4:10 pm (#1061 of 1297)

PatPat, since you are a math teacher I can see where you'd draw that conclusion. Me and My Shadow

LOL. Yes, I think sometimes that is my downfall. I take things literally that were probably not meant that way. There are some valid points here about the splitting of the soul and the mathematical proportions that end up in the Horcruxes. I guess I have always assumed (scary word) that Voldemort always knew that he wanted a seven-part soul and, therefore, had deliberately chosen to place one-seventh of his soul in each Horcrux. Now, bear in mind, I have ABSOLUTELY no canon that this is possible. I am simply basing this on Dumbledore's statement that the ring was a seventh of Voldemort's soul. If this is an accurate statement of fact (and I realize that's a big if) then there must be a way to choose the portion of soul that is placed in a Horcrux.

shepherdess - Jul 5, 2007 4:39 pm (#1062 of 1297)

And for all I know that might be the case. But that still doesn't account for all the pieces of soul lost to him due to the many murders he's committed. So he doesn't even have 100% of his soul to divide into seven parts. If he can, and did, divide his soul into seven equal parts, it would be seven equal parts of less than 100% of his soul.

Furthermore, 1/7 of his soul at the time he created the diary would not be the same size as 1/7 of his soul at the time he tried to kill Harry because he killed others and lost soul fragments between those times.

Mediwitch - Jul 5, 2007 4:51 pm (#1063 of 1297)

I've been over at Red Hen's website re-reading her theories as she's updated many of them in the last few months. She theorizes that Horcruxes are created NOT by the Avada Kedavra curse, but by a separate, as yet unnamed curse (based in part of Slughorn's comment to young Tom Riddle, "There is a spell, do not ask me, I don't know!" and the stated fact in canon that the AK is unblockable yet Lily was able to "block" the curse Voldemort aimed at baby Harry). If her theory is correct, it WOULD allow for the division of Voldemort's soul into Horcruxes without having to factor in the countless other murders he's committed.

PatPat - Jul 5, 2007 5:51 pm (#1064 of 1297)
Edited Jul 5, 2007 6:52 pm

And for all I know that might be the case. But that still doesn't account for all the pieces of soul lost to him due to the many murders he's committed. So he doesn't even have 100% of his soul to divide into seven parts. If he can, and did, divide his soul into seven equal parts, it would be seven equal parts of less than 100% of his soul. shepherdess

OK, if I understand what you are saying correctly, you are implying that, each time a murder occurs, a part of the soul is lost? To my understanding, the soul is SPLIT during the course of a murder, but the pieces are still within the person's body. A spell has to be performed in order to remove the pieces from the body and encase them in an object. Thus, the pieces of soul from Voldemort's other murders would still be within his body. The soul would simply not be whole. It would be in pieces in the body. Or am I misunderstanding you?

I've been over at Red Hen's website re-reading her theories as she's updated many of them in the last few months. She theorizes that Horcruxes are created NOT by the Avada Kedavra curse, but by a separate, as yet unnamed curse (based in part of Slughorn's comment to young Tom Riddle, "There is a spell, do not ask me, I don't know!" and the stated fact in canon that the AK is unblockable yet Lily was able to "block" the curse Voldemort aimed at baby Harry). If her theory is correct, it WOULD allow for the division of Voldemort's soul into Horcruxes without having to factor in the countless other murders he's committed. Mediwitch

I like this theory, Mediwitch. It would explain a lot. There would be more to splitting the soul than simply committing the murder. A spell would have to be performed. This would allow for Voldemort to choose when and how many times his soul was to be split and, therefore, control how many Horcruxes were made.

MickeyCee3948 - Jul 5, 2007 7:52 pm (#1065 of 1297)

For once I agree with you PatPat but remember the effects that the splitting of the soul has had on Tom. The unicorn blood, Nagini milkings and soul splitting have left him with a far less human appearance. Although to someone like Tom, I doubt if his vanity allows his to care what others think.

Mickey

shepherdess - Jul 5, 2007 8:32 pm (#1066 of 1297)

Hmmm.....yes, actually that was what I was thinking--that when you kill, a part of your soul splits off and is lost. I hadn't thought of it your way. Maybe I'm mistaken. I will need to go back and look at the book again to see what the actual phrasing is. If the book makes it clear that both parts of the soul stay inside the body, I wonder why I had the impression the split off part is lost. Hmm.

Verity Weasley - Jul 5, 2007 11:06 pm (#1067 of 1297)

Apologies if this has been mentioned before but I didn't have time to read all of the posts in this thread. I've never really been a big supporter of the 'Harry is a Horcrux' theory, but in my recent re-reading an idea occurred to me. It is the part in GOF when we hear about that mysterious glint in Dumbledore's eye which appears when he learns that LV used Harry's blood to regenerate. Could it be that a part of Voldemort's soul DID reside in Harry but the act of taking his blood for the potion allowed the soul fragment to return to Voldemort? Again, apologies if someone has already suggested this.

Mrs Brisbee - Jul 6, 2007 2:45 am (#1068 of 1297)
Edited Jul 6, 2007 3:45 am

Could it be that a part of Voldemort's soul DID reside in Harry but the act of taking his blood for the potion allowed the soul fragment to return to Voldemort?

Harry's connection to Voldemort became stronger after the rebirthing, not weaker, so I don't think the stolen blood also removed the soulbit at that time. However, I do like the idea that the stolen blood might somehow provide a way that will allow the soulbit to be moved from Harry back to Voldemort in the future.

PatPat - Jul 6, 2007 6:15 am (#1069 of 1297)

For once I agree with you PatPat Mickey

LOL! Well, it had to happen once. Don't worry. I'm sure we will disagree again soon.

Solitaire - Jul 6, 2007 9:18 am (#1070 of 1297)
Edited Jul 6, 2007 10:18 am

When Dumbledore is "communicating" with that weird instrument in his office--the night of Harry's vision of the attack on Arthur Weasley--he says "in essence separate." Of course, we did not know about Horcruxes back then. Now, however, there are a couple of things about which we can speculate:

First, is he talking about Nagini being possessed by both Harry and Voldemort?

Second, is Nagini herself a Horcrux, and the remnant of soul is in her yet not a part of her?

Third, is Harry possessing Voldemort?

Fourth, is what Dumbledore sees actually the remnant of Voldemort’s soul within Harry?

This whole thing makes my head hurt ... sort of like the Time-Turner.

Solitaire

PatPat - Jul 6, 2007 9:29 am (#1071 of 1297)

Soli, once we learned of the Horcruxes, I went back and re-read the series looking for clues. When I came to that quote, I took it to mean that Dumbledore was looking for confirmation of his theory that Nagini is a Horcrux. He knew that Harry was having visions of what Voldemort was doing. Since the vision was from within the snake, Dumbledore took this as evidence that Nagini contained a part of Voldemort's soul. He was saying that VOLDEMORT is "in essence divided." Just my opinion. Of course, you all know that I do not believe that Harry is a Horcrux, so, if I am wrong about that, then I am probably way off base about the rest of this too!

Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 6, 2007 9:41 pm (#1072 of 1297)

In OotP Moody tells Harry when discussing the original Order that Voldemort murdered Dorcas Meadowes himself. I wonder whether this murder is connected to the relic of Ravenclaw's that is a Horcrux?

me and my shadow 813 - Jul 9, 2007 11:02 am (#1073 of 1297)

Good possibility, Nathan. Since we know Vold doesn't waste his time killing just 'anyone', when it's mentioned Vold killed someone personally, one must ask oneself 'why do we need to know this?'.

Paul Miller - Jul 10, 2007 6:04 am (#1074 of 1297)

Okay, so I shall share with you a theory I have developed for a long time. It may or may not have been posted before, but I will say it anyway. Harry is not a Horcrux, or at least, not anymore. He used to be, before Voldemort's regeneration into a person. Let me explain: When Harry was given the scar, he was made into a Horcrux. The deaths of both his father and mother were the ones that constituted the Horcrux (giving the necessary murders for the spell). Now, he remained a Horcrux the whole time of his life, until the end of his 4th year at Hogwarts. When Voldemort used Harry's blood to reinhabit his body, he transferred that part of his soul back into his body. I don't believe Harry, Voldemort, or Dumbledore actually realized this. Or perhaps Dumbledore did? I mean, that gleam of triumph in his eye might have been his realizing of this. But then again, perhaps not. But anyways, I believe that there are 6 Horcruxes still, and Voldemort had tried to split his soul into 7 objects, making him have 8 pieces of his soul. The locket, the ring, the diary, Nagini, Hufflepuff's cup, Ravenclaw/Gryffindor's object are the Horcruxes that still function (at least until the ring and diary's destruction, and the theft of the locket). Harry was object 7, and as I explained it was corrected.

Choices - Jul 10, 2007 11:07 am (#1075 of 1297)
Edited Jul 10, 2007 12:08 pm

Your theory is interesting, but since I do not believe that the soul, or a bit thereof, resides in the blood, I can't buy into your theory. Also, I believe that Voldemort/Tom believed that seven was the most magical number and therefore, he made 6 Horcruxes with the seventh soul bit residing in himself....just as Dumbledore explained it.

MickeyCee3948 - Jul 10, 2007 11:57 am (#1076 of 1297)

About the 6 Horcruxes with the seventh residing in himself, I agree Choices

Mickey

Solitaire - Jul 10, 2007 3:34 pm (#1077 of 1297)

I believe there could be a seventh Horcrux, possibly made because Voldy did not realize Harry was a Horcrux. If this is so, i wonder what effect it would have on Voldy, considering his intent for 7 Horcruxes. Will he throw another temper tantrum?

Solitaire

Mrs Brisbee - Jul 10, 2007 3:44 pm (#1078 of 1297)
Edited Jul 10, 2007 4:45 pm

I think Voldemort might look on it as a fortunate accident. It looked like his plan for a seven part soul was forever spoiled because Harry Potter destroyed his diary, but then it starts to look to him like Harry might have a soulbit, as if fate had decided Voldemort should have seven parts of his soul in existence at any single time rather than a soul split into seven pieces. I think Voldemort would adjust his thinking so "destiny" would make him "win".

PatPat - Jul 10, 2007 5:06 pm (#1079 of 1297)

Your theory is interesting, but since I do not believe that the soul, or a bit thereof, resides in the blood, I can't buy into your theory. Also, I believe that Voldemort/Tom believed that seven was the most magical number and therefore, he made 6 Horcruxes with the seventh soul bit residing in himself....just as Dumbledore explained it. Choices

I agree with every part of what you said, Choices, I just can't see that the transfer of a tiny bit of blood would remove the soul bit. If this were so, all Harry has to do to destroy the Nagini soul bit (assuming Dumbledore is right about this, that is) is to take a hypodermic needle, draw some blood from the snake and then toss the needle into the fire. Somehow I don't think it is going to be that easy!

Choices - Jul 10, 2007 5:09 pm (#1080 of 1297)
Edited Jul 10, 2007 6:11 pm

Thanks PatPat. You know, if the soul bit could come out in the blood, why did it not come out all the times Harry got cut up in fights as he was growing up or after he came to Hogwarts? Goodness, it should have oozed out when the Basilisk fang pierced his arm.

I Am Used Vlad - Jul 12, 2007 2:07 pm (#1081 of 1297)

In the Melissa and Emerson interview that came out right after HBP, one of them implied that there wasn't going to be an Heir of Gryffindor and JKR said, "Yeah, well, yeah," even though it really did make any sense to assume this based on the conversation. I think JKR was so caught off guard that she said "yeah" by mistake, then realized that she would be giving away too much if changed her answer.

I was also one of the many people who said "So What" when Snape said that he's the HBP. It didn't seem to really matter. What it did do was have the trio discover something about Snape's parents.

Harry is looking for "something of Gryffindor's" that could be a Horcrux.

That something, in my opinion, is Snape himself.

Madame Pomfrey - Jul 12, 2007 5:02 pm (#1082 of 1297)

Vlad, I am glad you moved your theory over here because I am intrigued. Why do you think Snape is a Gryffindor and a Horcrux? Who's murder would Voldemort have used? Also, if Snape was a Gryffindor heir why would the sorting hat put him in Slytherin?

Solitaire - Jul 12, 2007 6:34 pm (#1083 of 1297)

I do not think Snape is the Horcrux. I think Harry is the Horcrux, and Snape will be the one who has to remove it from him ... not an easy task when the Horcrux hates you. Vlad, I do not understand why you think Snape, of all people, would be a Horcrux. When would Voldemort have done this ... and how? What makes you think Snape would have stood for it?

Solitaire

Mrs Brisbee - Jul 12, 2007 7:35 pm (#1084 of 1297)
Edited Jul 12, 2007 8:36 pm

I'll give you points for originality, Vlad. however, I do not think Snape is a Horcrux. I think Harry is one, by accident.. I do not think Voldemort would intentionally make any person into a Horcrux, even if they were a descendant of a founder. He didn't make the Hufflepuff descendant into a Horcrux. I think he just wants to murder the descendants, and immortalize their deaths by using those particular soulbits to make his Horcrux items. If Snape was a descendant of Gryffindor, I feel sure he would be murdered by now, not sent to Hogwarts under Dumbledore's watch to take up the cursed DADA position. Humans are mortal, and Snape's position dangerous. Those aren't good features for an intentional Horcrux.

Solitaire - Jul 12, 2007 9:34 pm (#1085 of 1297)

If Snape was a descendant of Gryffindor, I feel sure he would be murdered by now

An excellent point, Mrs. Brisbee ... I agree.

Luna Logic - Jul 13, 2007 1:22 am (#1086 of 1297)
Edited by Jul 13, 2007 2:29 am

From the Harry Potter's thread : Choices : If (if????) Harry has a soul bit in him and he killed Voldemort, it would be Godric's Hollow all over again. The soul bit in Voldemort would just fly off (being tied to this plain by Harry being a Horcrux) I think Voldemort would try to enter in Harry’s body. So we could have a final confrontation inside Harry’s head. Somehow (viewing Tom Riddle’s young memories?,) Harry might then feel a deep pity for this empty and inhuman life thus causing the ultimate departure of Voldemort ?

But what could then stop Voldemort to go through rebirthing process again and regain a body (Choices)

Except if this final confrontation takes place behind the veil? As Mrs Brisbee proposes in the Book 7 Prediction thread here

Mrs Brisbee : I predict that while Harry is battling Voldemort in the Death Room, he will realize he is the final Horcrux and jump through the Arch, but the stolen blood will act like a Horcrux for his body, and a rift will open in the Death Room because Harry was in the realm of the dead and Voldy in the realm of the living, but both their bodies and souls are connected.

Solitaire - Jul 13, 2007 10:56 am (#1087 of 1297)

If the reason Sirius died was not an AK but falling behind the veil, I do not think anyone is going to want to get too close to that veil ... do you?

Liz Mann - Jul 13, 2007 1:05 pm (#1088 of 1297)
Edited Jul 13, 2007 2:11 pm

I haven't been doing much theorising lately, but I've been reading the Ultimate Unofficial Guide (1-4) and it's made me think about the Harry is a Horcrux theory. The book brings up some unsettling possible evidence for it (like the fact that AK doesn't normally leave a mark on its victims, so why did Harry get a scar?) but, when trying to find some evidence to oppose the theory, two things occurred to me.

One - if Dumbledore is right, and Nagini is a Horcrux, and Voldemort used Frank Bryce to create it, then it seems unlikely that the spell to create a Horcrux needs to be started before the victim is killed. We saw Frank killed, and we know that, unless it was unspoken (and why would he do the Horcrux magic without words and then the actual murder with words?), Voldemort did no magic before the killing curse. Therefore, the Horcrux-creation spell would have had to have started after the killing (after the soul has been split by the act of murder). And if the spell is started after the killing, it seems unlikely that an unsuccessful AK would have turned Harry into a Horcrux.

It is possible, of course, that Bertha was used for the creation of that Horcrux (in which case the film people are in trouble for cutting her - would J.K. have allowed them to do that if she were important?).

Two - Dumbledore retrieved the ring Horcrux but he didn't destroy it straight away. He was walking around wearing it for ages. And Harry saw it on a table in his office. Why?? If he suspected what it was, why not destroy it? And surely wearing the ring would be like writing in the diary? After all, it does count as 'using' it (in the way it's meant to be 'used'). Wouldn't wearing it have put Dumbledore at risk of suffering the same fate as Ginny? If he just wanted to keep an eye on it at all times, why not merely keep it in his pocket?

Here's my theory. The piece of soul in the diary was able to come out of the object (using Ginny's life-source). Is it possible that Dumbledore has found out that Harry is a Horcrux and, not wanting him to have to die (or thinking that Harry can't kill Voldemort if he has to first kill himself), has found an alternative way of destroying Horcruxes? Has he possibly been wearing the ring in order to somehow transfer the piece of soul from the ring into himself (using his own life-force, in the manner of Ginny)? That way to kill Dumbledore would be to destroy the soul.

We know that Dumbledore retrieved the ring before the Unbreakable Vow was made because Snape mentioned the injury to his hand that night, which Snape obviously knew about and he could possibly have known the cause of the injury. Dumbledore may even have already started wearing the ring (how much time lapsed between the Vow being made and Dumbledore arriving at Privet Drive [wearing the ring]?) Maybe that was why Snape felt able to make the Vow because he knew Dumbledore was going to have to die anyway. Of course, that is also assuming that the Snape Is Innocent theory is correct.

So, if it is possible to transfer a piece of soul from the original object into another, it is possible for the piece inside Harry to be transferred into another (another living creature, presumably). Which may mean sacrificing an animal (Hedwig??) or another person sacrificing themselves so that Harry can go on and fulfill the prophecy by killing Voldemort.

What do you guys think?

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 13, 2007 2:05 pm (#1089 of 1297)

Liz I have a similar idea. I think if Nagini is a Horcrux Voldemort has worked out how to remove the Horcrux from a living creature and put it into an inanimate object (Gryffindor's Sword). Your idea of another death maybe exactly how he can do this. Assuming that Harry is a Horcrux that is why Snape stopped Harry from being killed.

I was under the impression that Dumbledore already destroyed the Horcrux in the ring. That was how he sustained the injury to his hand. The ring is no longer a Horcrux. p. 503 "Horcruxes" Scholastic Hardbound. It was cracked when he took Harry to meet Horace in chapter 4. He wore it to show it to Slughorn. He kept it to show Harry what to look for. LPO

Liz Mann - Jul 13, 2007 2:13 pm (#1090 of 1297)
Edited Jul 13, 2007 3:13 pm

Ooooooh! How did I miss that??? *slaps forehead* So then the soul can be destroyed without destroying the object! *phew*

Steve Newton - Jul 13, 2007 2:16 pm (#1091 of 1297)

Well, the ring had a crack in it, as I recall it. Harry has a scar. Maybe removal of the Horcrux is what happened during the missing day after Godric's Hollow. This would mean that Dumbledore knew that Voldemort had one Horcrux and the surprise at the end of COS was that he had more than one. Not sure that this works.

Solitaire - Jul 13, 2007 2:28 pm (#1092 of 1297)

Dumbledore retrieved the ring Horcrux but he didn't destroy it straight away

The ring itself may not have been destroyed right away, but the stone in it was cracked when Dumbledore came to fetch Harry from the Dursleys. Harry noticed it at Slughorn's house. This suggests to me that Dumbledore had already destroyed the Horcrux before he came to Privet Drive after Harry. IMO, he was wearing the ring for one reason: he wanted Slughorn to see it and recognize it as TR's ring. Did he totally destroy it after he stopped wearing it? Or did he return it to the Gaunt home, once the Horcrux had been "deactivated," in order to forestall Voldemort learning what he was doing? Remember that R.A.B. had hidden a decoy locket in the cave for just the same reason.

As to transferring the remnant of soul from a Horcrux into something or someone else ... personally, I don't think there is much point. The point is to destroy the piece of soul ... not keep it alive. JM2K, though ...

Solitaire

Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 13, 2007 7:20 pm (#1093 of 1297)

I think Voldemort is interested in keeping the piece of soul alive. That is why he would want to transfer it to something else. It seems like such a risk to pursue immortality by using a mortal snake to house a bit of his soul. LPO

Solitaire - Jul 13, 2007 7:44 pm (#1094 of 1297)
Edited Jul 13, 2007 8:46 pm

He may want to transfer it, but first he has to remove it from Harry without killing him. If he kills the "vessel," I'm guessing that he destroys the remnant of soul residing in it. Once he has retrieved the remnant of soul from Harry, I'm guessing it will be vulnerable until it is once again encased in a new Horcrux. So he will have to kill Harry before taking the time to create a new Horcrux--or so I'm guessing--during which time he and the extra remnant of soul will both be vulnerable to destruction by either Harry or some third party (Snape?).

Another possibility is that Voldemort will entrust Snape with removing the Horcrux--possibly because he fears doing it himself, in the event it blows up in his face. In doing so (assuming Snape is a good guy), he will inadvertently render himself mortal, because Snape will destroy that remnant of soul ... well, I think he will.

A third possibility is that Peter--remember the life debt?--has been lurking around and knows Harry is a Horcrux. He may also have heard how Voldemort is planning to remove it and then kill Harry. Peter, a known stoolie who probably realizes his own days are numbered, could come to Harry with the information that he is indeed a Horcrux ... and also tell him how to have it removed without killing himself. That would certainly satisfy his life debt, wouldn't it?

Of course, these are all JM2K and total speculation ...

Solitaire

Liz Mann - Jul 14, 2007 6:06 am (#1095 of 1297)
Edited Jul 14, 2007 7:11 am

If Voldemort has figured out that Harry is a Horcrux, based on the connection between them (presumably), then he probably figured it out in OotP when he became aware of the full extent of the connection. In which case, I don't think he could be planning to remove and transfer the piece of soul, because he tried to AK Harry in the Ministry, remember? If Harry is a seventh Horcrux (meaning eight original pieces of soul) then Voldemort might not have any qualms about killing Harry and reducing his Horcruxes back down to one less than the number he intended (because he knows the diary is gone) and then creating yet another to make seven pieces.

As I said before, the Ultimate Unofficial Guide points out that the killing curse doesn't normally leave a mark on the victim, and yet Harry has a scar. This would suggest that some other spell created that scar when it touched him. Possibly a Horcrux-creation spell. If that is true, then the scar was caused by the Horcrux being created (and should also mean that the snake has a scar). Now if that is the kind of wound that turning someone into a Horcrux creates, would removing it create a similar wound or a worse one? The wound was obviously deep enough to leave a scar, but not deep enough that it did serious damage.

Also, would the removal spell need to be done on Harry's head the same as the first spell, or any part of his body? If the former, Harry could be left with two lightning bolt scars on his forehead (people would really stare then, wouldn't they?).

The other thing to think about is, since the ring was removed of it's piece of soul without destroying it, only damaging it, how would that translate to a living Horcrux? Kill the person or merely injure them? And could the injury be healed by magic?

PatPat - Jul 14, 2007 6:29 am (#1096 of 1297)

The ring itself may not have been destroyed right away, but the stone in it was cracked when Dumbledore came to fetch Harry from the Dursleys. Harry noticed it at Slughorn's house. This suggests to me that Dumbledore had already destroyed the Horcrux before he came to Privet Drive after Harry. IMO, he was wearing the ring for one reason: he wanted Slughorn to see it and recognize it as TR's ring. Did he totally destroy it after he stopped wearing it? Or did he return it to the Gaunt home, once the Horcrux had been "deactivated," in order to forestall Voldemort learning what he was doing? Remember that R.A.B. had hidden a decoy locket in the cave for just the same reason.

Dumbledore kept the ring. He has it in his office during the first meeting with Harry. Harry notices it there after the trip into the pensieve.

Choices - Jul 14, 2007 9:42 am (#1097 of 1297)

Liz Mann - "As I said before, the Ultimate Unofficial Guide points out that the killing curse doesn't normally leave a mark..."

I think the operative word here is "normally". Normally it doesn't, but this was not normal circumstances. Lily was dead and her sacrifice - her life - provided a powerful charm of protection over Harry. Dumbledore said it resided in Harry's very skin. To me, this means that when the AK struck Harry, the powerful protection that resides in his skin, blocked the AK. Imagine that you throw a rock as hard as you can at a concrete wall - the wall stops the rock, but there is probably a bit of concrete knocked out of the wall. Is it any wonder that Harry's skin probably burst from the impact and repelling of the AK? I hardly think he would be unmarked by such a powerful spell hitting him and ricocheting off his forehead.

Solitaire - Jul 14, 2007 10:14 am (#1098 of 1297)

since the ring was removed of it's piece of soul without destroying it, only damaging it, how would that translate to a living Horcrux?

Hm ... perhaps it would only split his skull in two ... which would either kill him or weaken him to the point where he could be killed easily.

Actually, Pat, on the very last page of HBP Chapter 13, Harry notices that the ring is gone and asks Dumbledore about it.

Solitaire

Ollivander's Apprentice - Jul 14, 2007 2:03 pm (#1099 of 1297)

If Lily's love was enough to protect Harry from death, why wouldn't it protect him from becoming a Horcrux?

Solitaire - Jul 14, 2007 2:07 pm (#1100 of 1297)

I hope it was. I just think, more and more, that he is a Horcrux.

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