HPLF WX Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Harry Potter

Page 3 of 4 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Posts 1951 to 2000

Post  Mona Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:47 am



Netherlandic - May 15, 2005 3:14 pm (#1951 of 2971)

Or drown Voldemort in the lake. Better still, feed Voldemort to the giant squid.



Muggle Doctor - May 15, 2005 7:15 pm (#1952 of 2971)

An interesting suggestion if the giant squid is indeed, as some people claim, Dumbledore. :-p



TwinklingBlueEyes - May 15, 2005 11:30 pm (#1953 of 2971)

And if the above is true, then I hope our beloved headmaster doesn't come down with a bad case of indigestion... :-P



Ydnam96 - May 16, 2005 7:04 am (#1954 of 2971)

Uh....yuck that would be gross. But at least Harry would be around to get him a good dose of Malox or Tums (or whatever the wizarding equivalent is).



Gerald Costales - May 21, 2005 8:31 am (#1955 of 2971)
Edited May 21, 2005 9:41 am

Finally, caught up on all of the recent posts. I can see the SW & LotR comparisons. But, just because those stories and Jo are basically dealing with Good vs Evil themes doesn’t mean the similarities intentional or unintentional have any real significances.

I think there is a slight possibility that Harry will be tempted. But I think Harry will be tempted not by Voldermort but by Harry’s desire to talk to Sirius. What will Harry do to contact Sirius? There is the Archway. But, even Harry probably knows that the Archway may not allow you to return. Or else Sirius, if he could have, would have already returned through the Archway.

The two-way mirror remains a possibility for contact with Sirius. And who knows what the HBP will contribute to Harry. If the HBP is the new DADA teacher - Could this new teacher help Harry contact Sirius?

Another idea, however farfetched, is to have Trelawney contact Sirius. Now, there is probably a difference from being a Seer and/or a Medium. We still don’t have a clue to the “Source” of Trelawney’s prophecies. I think of Trelawney when she does a “Real Prophecy” being a Medium not the originator or true source of her prophecies.

And finally there is Good Ole Snape. Snape is an extremely gifted Wizard. There maybe things that Snape could do to help Harry contact Sirius. In reference to the - "stopper in death" - comment by Snape, I’ve always thought that since Voldermort was nearly dead and surviving on Unicorn blood, that the comment just foreshadowed what was happening to Voldermort. The Unicorn Blood was a “stopper in death” for Voldermort not a mean to gain immortality.

Sunday afternoon will have me standing in the scorching Southern California sun to see Episode III. If there are any further similarities to the Series, I may post something. Otherwise “May the Force be with you.” ;-) GC

PS Us Potties need a catchphrase. "Just My 2 Knuts." ;-) GC



HungarianHorntail11 - May 21, 2005 1:19 pm (#1956 of 2971)
Edited May 21, 2005 2:21 pm

I was kind of hoping that Harry would fix the mirror and toss it into the veil.

A lot of good ideas, GC. I'll have to sit and think about some of them. Trelawney repeating a prophesy for someone else - then who spoke through her?



Solitaire - May 21, 2005 2:50 pm (#1957 of 2971)

Interesting question, HH ... it has come up before on the Prophecy thread. If I were you, I'd ask it on the Sibyll thread, now that there is one. I'm certain it would generate a LOT of discussion!

Solitaire



Liz Mann - May 29, 2005 9:36 am (#1958 of 2971)
Edited May 29, 2005 10:37 am

I was just looking through Quick Quotes to try and find statements J.K. made about Harry possibily dying, and I found this one. Dunno what to make of it. Maybe it was just the person writing the article exaggerating or reading too much into things. Really I can't imagine that she'd be stupid enough to just give it away like that.

I'm getting really nervous now nonetheless.



Eponine - May 29, 2005 10:19 am (#1959 of 2971)

--Pats Liz comfortingly-- We know she would never give away something of that magnitude in an interview. Right?



Liz Mann - May 29, 2005 10:21 am (#1960 of 2971)
Edited May 29, 2005 11:27 am

Yeah, you're right. She's not that stupid. I'm really torn on whether he's going to die or not though, and I'll tell you why.

First I think that if she was going to kill him off, she wouldn't hint at it like that because she would want it to be a surprise ending.

Then I think maybe she's trying to put readers on their guard so they won't be too upset.

Then I think if Harry is going to die she can't answer questions about his future so she would have to say something along the lines of 'how do you know he'll have a future'. And besides, if he's going to live why doesn't she just answer the questions?

And THEN I think (just realised this one actually ) maybe during the big scene at the end there is going to be this huge 'will he die, won't he die?' moment. And if he's not going to die, she doens't want readers knowing that long before they read the scene.

And sometimes I think maybe she's just playing with us with her dark hints.

What do you guys think?



frogface - May 29, 2005 10:28 am (#1961 of 2971)

I think you need to relax Razz Personally I think Harry will die, but thats not based on that interview. I think JKR intended people to be confused by that comment, and it worked! But I accept I could be wrong, its really just based on a feeling I have that I think he will die.



Eponine - May 29, 2005 10:40 am (#1962 of 2971)

I'm torn on the issue as well. I could see it going both ways.

Her statements on the subject are ambiguous, and it's frustrating.



HungarianHorntail11 - May 29, 2005 10:52 am (#1963 of 2971)

What if the part Big V left in Harry enabled Big V to survive all of this time, perhaps unknowingly? Could Harry turn the wand on himself and AK the beast within?



Liz Mann - May 29, 2005 11:34 am (#1964 of 2971)
Edited May 29, 2005 12:35 pm

I don't think so. The prophecy said either must die at the hands of the other (not both must die) for neither can live while the other survives (not neither can die while the other survives). Although that apparently is Dan Radcliffe's theory, but he's just guessing the same as we are.



Solitaire - May 29, 2005 12:41 pm (#1965 of 2971)

I'm with Eponine ... I do not believe Jo would ever reveal that kind of information in an interview. She is far too savvy. I do think there is a possibility that Harry will die, but my reason for thinking it is probably kind of weird ...

I've always thought it was odd that Harry's story is told in third person (limited omnisicient) rather than in first-person narrative. This means someone besides Harry is narrating it. If Harry were alive in the end, why wouldn't he narrate his own story? I've often wondered if we wouldn't find out at the end of the saga that Harry's story was being narrated by ... Hermione ... or Ron ... or maybe even Neville.

I realize that limited omniscient is a very popular point of view and many authors use it, so it probably means nothing. Still, I've always wondered why Harry's story was not told in first person.

Solitaire



HungarianHorntail11 - May 29, 2005 12:52 pm (#1966 of 2971)

Well, if we were to compare it with the LOTR series, Bilbo doesn't finish his story, does he?

Liz, I was thinking more along the lines of an exorcism. Creepy though it is, he could find some information that provides details as to how to rid the world of Big V - perhaps in the chamber of secrets? Along the lines of the yellow rat spell Ron was trying. Since he shares so much with Big V, only he could "expel" him. Someone mentioned the possibility of a potions book being down there and that opens a lot of possibilities.



Solitaire - May 29, 2005 1:14 pm (#1967 of 2971)

Sorry, HH ... I haven't read that saga, so I'm not sure what you mean.



Eponine - May 29, 2005 1:25 pm (#1968 of 2971)

Well, Solitaire, I'm rather annoyed by first person stories, so I'm glad that it's a third person narrative. But I don't think that means anything as to whether it's Harry looking back on his life or not.



Robert Dierken - May 29, 2005 2:11 pm (#1969 of 2971)

De Bello Gallico is told in third person, even though the Caesar is mentioned frequently. He was still living when it came out, but was perforated later.



HungarianHorntail11 - May 29, 2005 3:26 pm (#1970 of 2971)

I hope you're right, Eponine. The direction of this discussion is depressing.



Eponine - May 29, 2005 3:30 pm (#1971 of 2971)

Well, then let's make it not depressing.

What do you think Harry will get for his birthday this year?



Madame Pomfrey - May 29, 2005 3:48 pm (#1972 of 2971)

Being that Moody and others threatened the Dursleys if Harry is mistreated in any way I think the Dursleys might actually give him something this year...Maybe Dudley's old boxers or something.



Liz Mann - May 29, 2005 4:11 pm (#1973 of 2971)
Edited May 29, 2005 5:12 pm

*Snort* Dudley's old boxers? Lol! I think you could be right, though. I wonder why Harry gets out of Privet Drive earlier than usual. J.K. said it's for more pleasant reasons. Maybe the Dursleys die.

Sorry to bring the conversation back onto the death thing, but while I don't think that the fact that the story is in third person signifies this (maybe it's just J.K's preferred writing style - I know it's mine) but the whole "it's someone else telling the story" idea kind of fits. Phrases from the first chapter of book 1 like, "When Mrs and Mrs Dursley woke up on the dull grey Tuesday our story starts..." make it sound like it is someone telling it. Or maybe it was just the intended audience of children than made J.K. write it like that. It's a traditional style of children's writing.

Anyway, back to the birthday present... Maybe some clothes that fit? Or an old computer of Dudley's. Then Harry can communicate with the Order by email (Voldemort would never think to eavedrop on them that way and wouldn't know how even if he suspected).



Hollywand - May 29, 2005 6:30 pm (#1974 of 2971)

Courage, Liz, courage! I bet all my sickles at Gringotts that Harry survives the series. Rowling's remark on her site recently---"if you hear Albus break into the Hogwarts Alma Mater song...." I think bodes well for both Albus and the little Potter guy.

Rolwing's is a story of hope, and courage. Harry will undergo some awful tests of his courage, but I'm convinced he will attain gold.



LooneyLuna - May 29, 2005 6:43 pm (#1975 of 2971)

I certainly hope that Harry gets a proper birthday party. He'll be sweet 16 after all. I'm sure Hagrid will get him something along the lines of the wallet with fangs. Smile Maybe a matching belt?

As for Harry dying in book 7, I don't know. I don't think he's truly alive now. Or maybe JKR will have Harry die in the epilogue, after a good long life, 12 children and after he's Minister of Magic. Smile



Solitaire - May 29, 2005 9:00 pm (#1976 of 2971)

Actually, Eponine, I said it probably meant nothing that the story was told in limited omniscient rather than first person. Unlike you, however, I tend to find first person novels more realistic; they remind me of autobiographies. Smile

Solitaire



frogface - May 30, 2005 12:33 am (#1977 of 2971)
Edited May 30, 2005 1:34 am

I think they way its told works better. If it were told from Harry's point of view, it would be coloured by Harry's inturpretation on things. This way its more objective. Harry is still the person in main focus, and yes, one could argue that in a way it is told from his perspective, but its also not (its very early, please bare with me!).

One of the things about really good literiture is that anyone's interpretation can be valid. A lesson I've learnt again and again in my English Lit A-Level (english muggle version of NEWTS) and from this forum is that with a really good book you can read it with a different spin on things each time. I find this series to be no exception, and I think that if the story was totally shown from Harry's perspective it would limit the inturpretations. There are of course really good books told from 1st person, such as 'The Great Gatsby' by F. Scott Fitzgerald (just HAD to show off my knowledge here....slight as it is) but even then the story is told by a narrator who we know is unreliable, and so you can still put your own spin on the events. Another good book for this is 'Life of Pi' by Yann Martel...but back to Harry Potter!...um...yeah...its cool...I like it. I'm gonna shut up now Smile



Good Evans - May 30, 2005 4:09 am (#1978 of 2971)

looneyluna - We dont really do the "sweet sixteen" thing in England I am afraid, 16's dont get a lot of rights, except the legal age to smoke cigarettes or to have intercourse.

Maybe Dudders will give him an empty cigarette packet to mark his age.

Wouldn't it be poignant if Sirius had already bought his present before he went through the veil? Remus would have to give it to him, and keep open a very raw wound.



Liz Mann - May 30, 2005 5:33 am (#1979 of 2971)

I've thought of that before, Good Evans. He might have sent Remus to buy it or it could have been something of his dad's, for all we know. He could have been planning it for ages. Poor Snuffles. Or more to the point, poor Harry!

Maybe Dudders will give him an empty cigarette packet to mark his age.

Just as long as it's an empty one. We don't want Harry to have to deal with cancer as well as everything else. I believe J.K. was a smoker when she was a teen (she mentioned smoking behind the curtains late at night while she was living with her parents in Tutshill). But then maybe once he goes back to Hogwarts he'll have to give them up because he can't get hold of them anymore. Or Hermione will bite his head off when she finds out and make him quit.



Good Evans - May 30, 2005 5:52 am (#1980 of 2971)

I didn't mean to suggest harry would be a smoker - as JKR alluded to Dudders and the gang underage smoking in OOtP - I thought an empty packet would be just Dudders style!

awful habit - yuck



applepie - May 30, 2005 5:55 am (#1981 of 2971)

Personally, I think Harry will live. I find it hard to believe that she will kill off the main character of a children's series....but I'm certainly no authority on the matter.



Liz Mann - May 30, 2005 6:16 am (#1982 of 2971)

Good Evans - I know what you meant. I was just saying, so long as Harry doesn't start smoking to try and calm himself down (which wouldn't work anyway because smoking does not calm you down, it actually makes your heart beat even faster so effectively has the opposite effect. As you said, awful habit).



Tomoé - May 30, 2005 7:06 am (#1983 of 2971)
Edited May 30, 2005 8:07 am

Even if I firmly believe Harry will die in the final fight, I don't put too much faith in the Scotsman's article. I'd need the original interview to judge JKR's tone. I have no less than nine place where she tease about killing Harry, then pretending to bluff (and sometimes pretending to double-bluff after that). Maybe the author of the article missed the tease and take it for a genuine slip. Keep those barrels of salt handy.



Steve Newton - May 30, 2005 8:22 am (#1984 of 2971)

I posted this on the 'In the End' thread and an overwhelming number of people (1) said that I should repost it here.

What is the power that Harry has that Voldemort knows not? Many have speculated love. I never liked that explanation. It sounds trite and would be very hard to write. In the MOM Voldemort leaves Harry's body when Harry experiences strong emotions. So I thought that strong emotion was the power. I thought some more about love and figured that through the years probably many wizarding children have died with parents that love them. No obvious ancient magic involved. Then I had a 1 in the morning moment. Lily sacrificed herself for Harry. I now, in my ever changing way, think that the power that Harry has is the willingness to sacrifice himself for others. A form of love perhaps but still different.



Choices - May 30, 2005 8:50 am (#1985 of 2971)
Edited May 30, 2005 9:56 am

Yes, Harry has a thing for saving people, and I don't think you are willing to sacrifice yourself for someone unless you really, deeply love them. I believe Harry has a deep love for his best friends (Ron and Hermione) and for people in his life...like Dumbledore, Remus, Neville, etc....a love so broad and encompassing that he would lay down his life for them. I think this is the thing that Voldemort knows not, and is hidden and studied behind the locked door in the DOM. Love is a wonderful thing....simple, yet mysterious and incomprehensible at the same time. It can cause people to do strange things and most people desperately seek it. So, why does Voldemort not understand it or feel the need for it in his life? Does extreme evil and the pursuit of power kill love?



applepie - May 30, 2005 8:57 am (#1986 of 2971)
Edited May 30, 2005 9:58 am

Voldemort has never loved anything so much that he would give up his life for it...unless you count imortality. He is too self-centered and selfish to care about anyone other than himself.

So, it could easily be either love, or the ability to sacrifice yourself for someone you care about. Where many wizarding parents may have had children that they love die, there probably aren't as many who actually did die to save their children.

I find this ironic because I seem to recall that Tom Riddle's Mother died in childbirth or shortly after, which would justify her sacrificing herself for him to live...but I doubt he would return the favor.



HungarianHorntail11 - May 30, 2005 9:35 am (#1987 of 2971)

When someone is so self-centered, it becomes what I'd liken it to as an inward spiral. The measures a self-centered person would take to satiate him/her self are astounding. A selfish mother would cast aside her own child - I've seen it done. When the person finally reaches the center, everyone is blocked out and hence, cannot be touched (emotionally). That is where Big V is.

Applepie, Tom Riddle's mother dying would fit well with the Recurring Boy Who Lived theory by vball man.



Solitaire - May 30, 2005 10:08 am (#1988 of 2971)

Tom Riddle's Mother died in childbirth or shortly after, which would justify her sacrificing herself for him to live

I don't think this is quite the same thing as Lily's sacrifice. As for Riddle not knowing love ... remember that in CoS, he makes fun of Ginny's love for him. He ridicules it to Harry down in the Chamber. Jo says we will learn why he is so evil. I can hardly wait to find out!

I know that orphanages are often presented as places of horror and maltreatment of children in British literature (I'm thinking of how Oliver Twist and Jane Eyre were treated). Perhaps we will learn that Tom Riddle underwent some similar sort of treatment--although the evil within him seems to be of a different sort.

And Frogface, please email me. I'd love to know why you consider Nick Caraway an unreliable narrator.

Solitaire



Joanne R. Reid - May 30, 2005 1:24 pm (#1989 of 2971)

Hi,

I have a couple of comments.

1. The first is about the point of view of the author. Most writing of any kind is done in the third person, called the narrative style. It is by far the easiest form, in that it permits the author to describe actions, events and thoughts that are not just those of the main character but are from any point of view that is needed to push the story along at that moment. It is also the most comfortable to read. There are few stories written in the first person singular. They are difficult not only to read, but unbelievably difficult to write.

2. I have already expressed my opinion as to Harry's death. To reiterate, I would be heart broken. Worse, I can not imagine how I'd read it to my grandchildren. I wouldn't know how to comfort them or explain to them what had happened. By this same token, I can not imagine Jo writing a book that would upset her children and devastate children all over the world. It's unimaginable to me that anyone would wish to harm them.

Thanks,



Choices - May 30, 2005 1:28 pm (#1990 of 2971)

Well said, Joanne!!



Liz Mann - May 30, 2005 2:10 pm (#1991 of 2971)
Edited May 30, 2005 3:11 pm

By this same token, I can not imagine Jo writing a book that would upset her children and devastate children all over the world. It's unimaginable to me that anyone would wish to harm them.

Yes but J.K. has had the main plot worked out from the very beginning, before she got published, before she had any kind of audience at all. She had no idea then that the books would become so immensely popular, so if Harry is going to die, when she made that decision she had no idea that it would devistate so many children or cause them harm. Harry's popularity didn't really rocket until around the third book, by which time she could have already laid countless pieces of information pointing to the way the stories are going to go that we don't even know are there, and she might not have been able to go back. And besides, when she started writing HP she probably didn't even know she'd even try to get published, let alone suceeed. She'd never tried to get any other book she'd written published before because she'd hated everything she wrote.

I dunno. I would be heart broken too. Mum is convinced he won't die because she says it would make everything that's happened for nothing.



Tomoé - May 30, 2005 7:02 pm (#1992 of 2971)

lhhicks99 asks: Why does Professor Dumbledore allow Professor Snape to be so nasty to the students (especially to Harry, Hermione, and Neville)?
jkrowling_bn: Dumbledore believes there are all sorts of lessons in life...
horrible teachers like Snape are one of them! (Barnes and Noble & Yahoo! chat, 20 October, 2000)

Maybe, like Dumbledore, Jo believes there are all sorts of lessons in life, and get a chance to deal with a concrete death before someone near to you die could be one of them ...



Joanne R. Reid - May 31, 2005 8:11 am (#1993 of 2971)
Edited May 31, 2005 9:12 am

Hi,

No! NO! A thousand times, NO!!!

I cannot forgive or condone anyone harming a child. Therefore, I cannot believe that Jo Rowling began these novels with the intent of hurting children. She knew full well that these were novels for children, not adults. She has expressed her surprise that so many adults and even older folk have become her fans.

She has children and fully understands the mother-child relationship. She would not hurt her own children. I have confidence that she will not hurt my grandchildren.

Thanks,



applepie - May 31, 2005 8:27 am (#1994 of 2971)

Joanne Reid - I agree. I don't think anyone would benefit from Harry dying. All his suffering would be in vain.

This is a children's series and I think that the lessons include death and coping with death. But, the deaths don't have to include the main character.

What message would that send to children? Struggle all your life, feel unloved, out of place, suffer criticism from peers, defeat evil, maintain values, earn respect, find love and friendship, and die before becoming a man. I find this hard to swallow.

Maybe it is just because I want him to live, but even so...it's my humble opinion.



HungarianHorntail11 - May 31, 2005 9:13 am (#1995 of 2971)

Hasn't the book already dealt with the coping of death? I think killing off Harry would be beating the subject to death. (Sooo sorry, I just had to.



applepie - May 31, 2005 9:19 am (#1996 of 2971)

HH - Precisely what I meant. We have already dealt with death and I am sure we will again. But, I don't think it will be his.



frogface - May 31, 2005 9:36 am (#1997 of 2971)

Too be honest I think you're all jumping the gun. Just because none of us want to see Harry die, for any number of reasons, it does not mean it won't happen. As I've said before, I have confidence that if Harry is killed off, JKR will be able to write it in such a way that is satisfying, maybe even happy. After all as Dumbledore would say, there are worse things than death. Not to mention his famous "to the organised mind, death is but the next great adventure".



applepie - May 31, 2005 9:41 am (#1998 of 2971)
Edited May 31, 2005 10:41 am

I have to admit that when he was going through the searing pain in OoTP, I sometimes sympathized and wished along with him that he would die. However, I knew there were two additional books and that it wasn't going to happen then. If he would have died in the MoM, I would have been throgoughly shocked by the series of events.

I know I'm jumping the gun, and maybe she'll make his death the best alternative for Harry, if he is to die. But, I think JKR will be disappointing a huge amount of fans, even if she says that the fans do not dictate the direction she goes with the story.



Liz Mann - May 31, 2005 9:52 am (#1999 of 2971)
Edited May 31, 2005 10:53 am

In the Jeremy Paxman interview J.K did just before OotP came out, she said: "You are writing children's books, you need to be a ruthless killer."

And I'm sure somewhere else when questioned about it, J.K said something like, "Why does everyone assume I'm a soft writer?" Or something like that anyway. Of course she could just be pulling our leg (please, please, please just be pulling our leg!).

Anyway, whether she was writing for children or not she did not know when she wrote it that those kids would be as upset as they will be if Harry dies because she had no idea how many kids (and adults) would become obsessed with the books and think of the characters as real people. Someone dies in a book normally, it's sad, yeah, but you get over it quickly. I mean, Bambi's mother died. Simba's father died.



applepie - May 31, 2005 9:57 am (#2000 of 2971)

I'm not saying it will be a life-altering moment for me if Harry dies, but I will wonder if it would have all been done in vain. I think she was a ruthless killer in killing off Sirius and Cedric...and Harry's parents for that matter. I think she was the total opposite of a "soft-writer" when she placed Harry in utter misery with the Dursleys and introduced him to Draco, Lucius, Snape, Umbridge and Voldemort. I'm just voicing my hopes out loud, and I sincerely hope he lives.

Harry Potter - Page 3 2134391180

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mona
Mona
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Posts 2001 to 2050

Post  Mona Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:50 am



Good Evans - May 31, 2005 10:54 am (#2001 of 2971)

I wasn't quite sure where to post this - and apologies it is not on the current topic of conv on this thread - I was browsing Amazon and looked at the adult (UK) cover of HBP. The book is "Advanced Potion Making" - so it looks as though Harry does indeed make it to Snapes advanced class!

If someone has already posted this, I do apologise.



Choices - May 31, 2005 11:18 am (#2002 of 2971)

I haven't seen that posted Good Evans - good catch!



Liz Mann - May 31, 2005 1:50 pm (#2003 of 2971)
Edited May 31, 2005 2:50 pm

I think it's been discussed on the thread fairly near the top of the forum about the next book. But you're right, it does look like that. Snape will be furious! Not to mention Harry probably wouldn't be too pleased either!

After this year, of course, many of you will cease studying with me, Snape went on. "I take only the very best into my NEWT Potions class, which means that some of us will certainly be saying goodbye."

His eyes rested on Harry and his lip curled. Harry glared back, feeling a grim pleasure at the idea that he would be able to give up Potions after fifth year.

What a nasty shock for them both.



Ponine - May 31, 2005 5:42 pm (#2004 of 2971)
Edited May 31, 2005 7:04 pm

Joanne said: I cannot forgive or condone anyone harming a child. Therefore, I cannot believe that Jo Rowling began these novels with the intent of hurting children....She would not hurt her own children. I have confidence that she will not hurt my grandchildren.

Joanne, I do believe I understand your thoughts behind your last post, but I firmly disagree with your equaling letting Harry die to intentionally hurting children; I might go as far as to say I find it a little bit offensive on JKRs behalf.

Since I started reading at age four, I have read hundreds of books for children, young adults and adults. Some of the very best ones had the protagonist(s) die, without me ever perceiving the author to intentionally hurt me. I am convinced that some of these books shaped me, and made me consider life, love and death in a way I otherwise would not have.

I fear that there will be gutting, heartbreaking, unexpected deaths of children, as well as adults, in the following books. And I know that when it happens, I will cry. I may be mad that JKR made it happen. I may wish that she could rewrite it, and make them happily ever after. Ultimately though, I have chosen to read her books and delve into her world. I accept that she is telling her story, and that her story is hers to tell whichever way she chooses to.

Furthermore, I have full confidence in that whatever JKR has in store for Harry and the others, it will be done in a respectful, kind and appropriate manner. I believe that no matter which direction the remaining books take, they can teach us all, regardless of age, much about human nature.



Choices - May 31, 2005 5:57 pm (#2005 of 2971)

Joanne and Ponine - You both make excellent points and you really have me in a quandry - I want to believe both ways, but I know only one is possible, and it's in JKR's capable hands as to which way it will go.



Steve Newton - May 31, 2005 6:12 pm (#2006 of 2971)

Remember poor Charlotte.



Solitaire - May 31, 2005 8:57 pm (#2007 of 2971)

I hope Harry does live. Personally, I think that killing him off sets up disappointment for the millions of future Harry fans who have not yet been born. Unfortunately, I don't think Jo cares what I think. Sad I expect the decision on his fate was made long, long ago.

While I agree that harming a child is a terrible thing, we have already seen Harry tortured by Voldemort in the Graveyard--the Cruciatus curse--and by Umbridge's evil Quill. We have also seen Cedric murdered. Jo has already proven that she will not shrink from showing us the evil side of the magical world.

I continue to doubt, however, that Jo would have spilled such an important piece of information in such a way, given the secrecy that has surrounded everything about the series thus far. She is much to savvy to be caught off-guard on that kind of thing, I think. I'm sure she was toying with that interviewer. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire



vball man - May 31, 2005 9:01 pm (#2008 of 2971)

I think she said that the books get darker. Was that a continual darkening through the rest of the series?



The giant squid - May 31, 2005 11:39 pm (#2009 of 2971)

There are few stories written in the first person singular. They are difficult not only to read, but unbelievably difficult to write.--Joanne R. Reid

I can attest to that, especially the last point. I've been trying to write a story in first person singular (styled after one of my favorite authors) and it's very difficult going. The urge to describe things "off-screen" is quite strong.



Tomoé - Jun 1, 2005 7:55 am (#2010 of 2971)
Edited Jun 1, 2005 8:57 am

Joanne R. Reid -> I cannot forgive or condone anyone harming a child. Therefore, I cannot believe that Jo Rowling began these novels with the intent of hurting children. She knew full well that these were novels for children, not adults.
Sure, to lose one of our favorite book character is not a very happy moment, but there's no consequence on our daily life. When I was 8 or 9 (can't remeber for sure) I used to watch a cartoon named "David the gnome". On the final episode, David, his wife and an old friend of them are getting too old and go in the wood to transform themselves into trees. In my 8 or 9 years old mind, they were wrost than dead, unable to reach one another for decades if not centuries. I couldn't sleep that night thinking what if parents die, what if my twin sister end up in my mom's family with her god parents and me with my father's parents who are my godparents, what a poor fate David and his wife get, how unfair. I finally get down the stair and talk with my mom about what might happen to me if she dies (but was too prode to admit I was disturbed by the "death" of cartoon character, lol). The next mornig, it was over. I did think of David's poor fate for a few times after than, but didn't focus on it at all. The next time this cartoon aired, I watched it again and enjoy it just the same.

Children are able to get over the death of fictional characters. Sure, in the wealthy countries of the second part of the 20th century, the large majority of human being don't have to deal with death before they are teenager or even adult, but the large majority of the humanity, trough millenia, had to deal with it at young age and these deaths had real consequences on their life.

Here's a few selected quotes about who's the targeted public fo HP:

I always find it quite patronising — ‘What do children want?’, as though they’re a separate species. They are... the same as us, with less life experience. So I never write with an imaginary focus-group of eight-year-olds in mind, I write entirely for myself. (BBCi Bristol interview, 12 November 2001)

I never, at any point writing any of the books, worried whether children would understand or whether they would find it funny or whether I would frighten them too much, ever, because I wrote the books entirely for myself. I just went where I wanted to go and hang the consequences really. (James Naughtie talks to JK Rowling, August 1, 1999)

I just write what I wanted to write. I write what amuses me. It's totally for myself. I never in my wildest dreams expected this popularity (All Abord the Potter Express, July 10, 2000)

When I'm writing, I don't aim for any - any age group. I write these books entirely for myself. And in fact, before - before my British publisher Bloomsbury told me that they were going to market the books as for 9 year olds and above, I really had no idea. (J.K. Rowling on The Diane Rehm Show, December 24, 1999)

Sure, she also said 9+ is the perfect public for Harry and there will be no drugs or teenage pregnancies in the series.

# Applepie -> If Harry dies, but I will wonder if it would have all been done in vain. Lily didn't die in vain and I hope Harry's death will allow some ancient magic to play out and achieve to vanquish the dark lord (what ever the phrase can mean).

# Liz Mann -> And I'm sure somewhere else when questioned about it, J.K said something like, "Why does everyone assume I'm a soft writer?" Or something like that anyway. Of course she could just be pulling our leg (please, please, please just be pulling our leg!).
Here it goes:
I love the Idea of Harry getting older, do you think you might be tempted to write books about Harry when he is working and has a family of his own?
Hmmmmmm... yet another person who is convinced I'm not going to kill him off! Where you people get the idea I'm soft-hearted, I don't know. I'm joking. Or am I? (a href=http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2001/0301-comicrelief-staff.htm>Comic Relief Chat, March 2001)

Liz Mann -> I mean, Bambi's mother died. Simba's father died.
Great point! My main exemple is the little match seller, but it more than a century old. Thanks for the freshier exemple.

Edit: On my, it's that long!



applepie - Jun 1, 2005 8:28 am (#2011 of 2971)
Edited Jun 1, 2005 9:28 am

Tomoe - All are very valid points. I do not want to see Harry die, but if he must I will have to deal with it. I do not think Lily died in vain, since any mother would surely give her life for her child, no matter what his fate would be. I just hope that after 7 years of schooling and 7 books later, he survives.

In my mind, I think that it would be a way for JKR to end the series without ever having to go back and write about it again. Whereas, if he lives, we might pester her into another book about his life as an adult, etc. On the other hand...we could very well pester her to write Hogwarts, A History or something similar just the same. I also remember that she said the last word of the last book was "scar" and I keep thinking that that word tells me absolutely nothing about which way it could go. I want to think unbiased, but I want him to live.

I know she has said countless times that she writes for her own fulfillment, and that she is not cohersed by any of the fans opinions, and I respect that. I just hope that Scholastic and Bloomsbury haven't placed the target audience incorrectly. I know kids are very resilient, and that they must learn to deal with loss. Not everything can be fairy tales with prince charming, pink castles and happily ever afters.....or can it? We are about to learn of a prince, definitely know of a castle (though not pink), and the happily ever after could be fulfilled even if Harry dies. I do not think that Harry would die if he had not defeated Voldemort. So, even if he dies, the wizarding world would live happily ever after without the threat of Voldemort.

I guess what I'm trying to say, in a sporatic and confusing kind of way, is that we can speculate, and hope, and dissect the text but we don't know until she gives us the last book. I only hope I will be able to read it without flipping to the last page to see what happens to "the boy who lived"......(foreshadowing anyone???)



Liz Mann - Jun 1, 2005 9:03 am (#2012 of 2971)

Whereas, if he lives, we might pester her into another book about his life as an adult, etc.

Yes but as has been said already, whether Harry lives or dies was probably decided very early on by J.K., before she knew that she would have fans pestering her to write an eighth book. Besides, I don't think she would kill Harry just to get the fans off her back about continuing the series.



librarian314 - Jun 1, 2005 9:55 am (#2013 of 2971)

Hey all!

People can only be pestered into writing something if they let themselves. Writers either write prequels or sequels because they still have a story to tell or they need the money. I doubt money will be an issue with JKR, so if Harry survives the series, we will only get stories of him as an adult if JKR discovers that there are still some stories to tell about him.

I hope she doesn't abandoned the wizarding world she's created because there are so many more stories left to tell: Dumbledore's, McGonagall's, Snape's, Moody's, the rise and fall of Grindlewald, the founding of Hogwarts, etc.

I'm always comforted by knowing that she's written an epilogue that details what happens to the characters that survive the series. She knows what happens and some of them survive. It's not going to end up like a Shakespearean tragedy where everyone dies. I hope the last sentences of that chapter (the last in book 7) is something along the lines of "Several red-headed children bounded up to Harry laughing and giggling. The youngest, who reminded him of his dear wife Ginny, looked up at him and asked, "Grandpa, tell us a story. The one about your scar."

# *michelle the librarian**



Joanne R. Reid - Jun 1, 2005 10:12 am (#2014 of 2971)

Hi,

Thank you, Liz Mann, for proving my point. Bambi's mother died. Simba's father died. But, neither Bambi nor Simba died. Instead, they were forced to grow up and accept adult responsiblities.

Harry Potter's mother and father were murdered. Sirius was murdered before Harry's eyes. Cedric was killed just a few feet from him. Harry has seen more death and experienced more heartache than any fictional hero I can remember in quite some time.

Harry has learned and will continue to learn the great lessons of life. But, if he is killed, then these lessons are worthless. They teach nothing that lifts him or us. Instead, we are taught that learning is worthless; that redressing wrongs is valueless; and that opposing Evil is a hollow and meaningless effort without virtue or reward.

I doubt that Jo Rowling's message is either so trite or so trivial. I expect her message to be uplifting. I expect that Good will triumph over Evil. I expect that Harry will remain the kind of hero that will be a shining beacon for generations of children of all ages. Through him, our children will learn that righting wrongs and championing that is Good is rewarded throughout ones life and long after.

If we want our children to be inspired to greatness and to Good, we nust show them positive examples. So far, Harry Potter and his friends have been such an example. I am convinced that Jo Rowling will continue this positive and uplifting message.

Thanks,



Eponine - Jun 1, 2005 10:12 am (#2015 of 2971)
Edited Jun 1, 2005 11:13 am

She has said several times upon being asked about the possibility of an eighth book that she'll never say never because the minute she says she'll never do something, she does it the next week.

Katie Couric: Here's Sarah, she's nine. (Reading next email) "I'm nine years old. I live in Rhode Island. My question for Ms. Rowling is: Will you keep writing Harry Potter books that will take him through his adult life? He could be a teacher at Hogwarts!"

J.K. Rowling: I'm intrigued because everyone seems very confident I'm not going to kill him.

Katie Couric: Well good! I hope you're not! (Both laugh.)

J.K. Rowling: I'm not saying either way.

Katie Couric: That would make big news here this morning.

J.K. Rowling: Everyone assumes that there will be an adult life and maybe they're right. But no, I think I'm going to stop at seven. I'm not going to say "never another one." If I had a burning desire to do another one, I'd do it. But at the moment, I'm planning to stop at seven.

Found here

With the huge success of the first three books and your seemingly endless imagination, do you think that you might (please, oh please) consider continuing the story past the originally planned seven books? Maybe continuing with Harry as an adult or books about his children?

So you're convinced I'm not going to kill Harry??!! I try never to say never, because it seems that every time I do I end up by doing the thing I've forsworn. So, there is a remote possibility that there will another Harry book, but at the present time I am planning only seven.

Found here

Sean Bullardquestion14: Several people have asked "Are you stopping at seven?".

J.K. Rowling: Um, at the moment I, I, I definitely think I'm going to stop at seven, and as I say, that will be really heartbreaking. Um, the only reason you'll ever see an eighth Harry Potter book is if I really, in ten years time, burn to do another one, but at the moment I think that's unlikely. But I try never to say 'never anything', because at the moment if I say 'I will never', I do it next month! So I just, I, but I think not. I just think we're gonna stop at seven.

Found here

So, she admits that there is a small possibility that there may be another book at some point. To me, this is an excellent indication that Harry will not die, because how could she write another 'Harry book' without Harry?

P.S. Michelle, I like your version of the end.



applepie - Jun 1, 2005 10:44 am (#2016 of 2971)
Edited Jun 1, 2005 11:44 am

Joanne Reid - You so eloquently said exactly what was on my mind. I did not mean to sound like I thought that by killing him she would be able to end the series. It is just the thought that was going through my mind without thinking everything through about the story being decided so long ago. I was just trying to come up with an answer and reasoning for myself... Kind of like talking out loud when you don't realize you are.

Bravo...I think the end of book 7 should be a culmination of Joanne and Michelle's posts. I very much like the children approaching Harry about the scar...though I'm not necessarily a Harry/Ginny shipper. However, I do feel that Harry will be very strongly connected to the Weasley family for the rest of his life (whether his life extends beyond book seven, or through it.)



Liz Mann - Jun 1, 2005 1:06 pm (#2017 of 2971)
Edited Jun 1, 2005 2:07 pm

I agree Joanne. Simba's father and Bambi's mother show that kids are used to death and can cope with it, but they're certainly not used to the protagonist dying.

At the moment I'm leaning towards thinking that J.K. is saying these 'how do you know he's going to die' things because she is planning a big scene or something near the end where whether he lives or dies is in question (like he's mortally wounded or something) and she doesn't want us to know the outcome before we read it or the scene will have no impact. At least, that's what I'm hoping. But I, like Jo, never like to be definate about things (and I'm a worrier ).



Ponine - Jun 1, 2005 1:53 pm (#2018 of 2971)

Thank you, Choices

Joanne said: Harry has learned and will continue to learn the great lessons of life. But, if he is killed, then these lessons are worthless. They teach nothing that lifts him or us. Instead, we are taught that learning is worthless; that redressing wrongs is valueless; and that opposing Evil is a hollow and meaningless effort without virtue or reward... I doubt that Jo Rowling's message is either so trite or so trivial. I expect her message to be uplifting. I expect that Good will triumph over Evil.

- Joanne, I agree with you in that I too believe/hope/expect her message to be uplifting, and also that Good will triumph over Evil. However, I could not disagree more with the rest of your above-quoted statement, and I am despreately struggling not to draw any religious parallells. I will only say that no struggle against evil can be worthless, some things are worth dying for, and that even if Harry was to perish, I feel confident that he would win the war against evil in the process.



T Brightwater - Jun 1, 2005 2:19 pm (#2019 of 2971)

I will only say that no struggle against evil can be worthless, some things are worth dying for, and that even if Harry was to perish, I feel confident that he would win the war against evil in the process.

Well said, Ponine.

If Harry dies, it will be because the story demands it, and it will not be a pointless death. I think it's important to the story that Harry _could_ die; his choices have very real consequences for himself and the WW as well.

At the moment, Harry's existence after the series is in an indeterminate state. Is anyone else thinking of Schrödinger's cat? :-)



HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 1, 2005 3:10 pm (#2020 of 2971)

Don't open the box, Brightwater.



Ms Amanda - Jun 1, 2005 3:21 pm (#2021 of 2971)

Excellent parallel, T Brightwater.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jun 1, 2005 9:51 pm (#2022 of 2971)
Edited Jun 1, 2005 10:53 pm

She's not named Brightwater for nothing! Very good example.

...toddles off elsewhere...

Edited for clarity...crystal clear!



frogface - Jun 2, 2005 4:52 am (#2023 of 2971)

Harry has learned and will continue to learn the great lessons of life. But, if he is killed, then these lessons are worthless. They teach nothing that lifts him or us. Instead, we are taught that learning is worthless; that redressing wrongs is valueless; and that opposing Evil is a hollow and meaningless effort without virtue or reward.

I couldn't disagree with you more. We all die, does that make life worthless? Absolutely not. If we want to draw parallels lets look at star wars. George Lucas has stated that Anakin Skywalker is the main character of the series (not his son Luke) What happens at the end of the series? Anakin gives his life to save others. Is his sacrifice a meaningless gesture? Does it render his life meaningless? Did you sit back at the end of that film and think "well the hero died, so that was a waste". Now don't get me wrong, I don't WANT Harry to die. I want him to live. That doesn't mean he's going to. All i'm trying to say here is that its just as likely he'll die as it is that he'll live. We can't deny something is going to happen in this series until either we read book 7 for ourselves or JKR catagorically tells us. If you don't want to believe Harry dies then thats understandable, but to deny it out right...that is what seems a waste to me.



vball man - Jun 2, 2005 5:35 am (#2024 of 2971)

The lessons are not worthless if Harry uses them to kill Voldemort before he dies. Especially if, "None shall come after..." refers to Dark Wizards.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 2, 2005 8:36 am (#2025 of 2971)

Maybe they mean no more dark wizards will be able to render themselves immortal. I can't imagine being able to wipe out evil in general. Now THAT would be something worth dying for.



lemonbalm&bees - Jun 2, 2005 8:54 am (#2026 of 2971)

do we actually know that the "and none will come after" fragment heard in the prophecy room refered to voldemort, the dark arts, or our story? Is this speculation or did I miss something? Could somebody fill me in?



HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 2, 2005 8:56 am (#2027 of 2971)

No, indeed we don't. That's why I stated "maybe".



Tomoé - Jun 2, 2005 11:03 am (#2028 of 2971)

Brightwater -> If Harry dies, it will be because the story demands it, and it will not be a pointless death.

This is my exact feeling!

When the protagonist die a pointless death, it's the hallmark of a lesser author, if the more imaginative plot twist the author can think of is to kill the protagonist just for the sake of it, it's just lack of imagination (like getting them hit by a mad driver that had nothing to do with the story [unless it's a comedy and there a comic purpose to it]).

In Better writters' works, there's always a reason to push the story that way. Andersen's little match seller's death was a way out of misery, a Christmas miracle for an abused child that had no other way out.

But I believe Jo can do much better than that. I expect that Harry's death will lead to a profond revolution in the wizarding world mentality. I expect Voldemort to meet a fate worst than death. I expect the houses to be united. I expect a fairer world for werewolf, half-breed, goblins, house-elves, etc. And I expect Ron to save the Chudley Cannons. ^_^



mooncalf - Jun 2, 2005 11:14 am (#2029 of 2971)

Speaking of comic purpose, you're a pretty good writer yourself, Tomoe.

Thanks for the laugh, and I hope it all comes true! :-)



GryffEndora - Jun 2, 2005 12:48 pm (#2030 of 2971)

I would also like to point out that there are many instances in life where people have died and then been brought back without magic. This is another possibility.

We've had petrified people, and we've had what would have been fatal injuries, but once you're dead you're dead. No magic power can resurrect a truly dead person. Hattenstone, Simon. "Harry, Jessica and me," The Guardian, July 8, 2000

This quote has always made me wonder if we wont see an instance of someone who is not truly dead. Like in the Princess Bride when Miracle Max pronounces Wesley "Mostly Dead".



Liz Mann - Jun 2, 2005 1:03 pm (#2031 of 2971)

I expect Voldemort to meet a fate worst than death. I expect the houses to be united. I expect a fairer world for werewolf, half-breed, goblins, house-elves, etc. And I expect Ron to save the Chudley Cannons. ^_^

I don't see all that happening (maybe some of it but not all) because the world is not perfect and will never be perfect whether Harry defeats Voldemort or not. J.K. is not going to write a series where everyone lives happily ever after at the end, because this is not a fairy tale or Disney film. She is more realistic than that.



Tomoé - Jun 2, 2005 2:01 pm (#2032 of 2971)
Edited Jun 2, 2005 3:20 pm

Liz Mann -> I don't see all that happening (maybe some of it but not all) because the world is not perfect and will never be perfect whether Harry defeats Voldemort or not.

Ok let's see:
I expect Voldemort to meet a fate worst than death. I suspect the Dementors will play in somewhere. But maybe not. I do believe he will find an end worse than death, we have been told death is nothing but the next adventure and Voldemort don't want to die. Wouldn't it be poetic justice to grant his wish?

I expect the houses to be united. The books seems to lead to it. The old conflict Slytherins/Gryffindors, the Sorting Hat's wish (who is the founders' voices), it sounds like we are going to see a conclusion for it before the end.

I expect a fairer world for werewolf, half-breed, goblins, house-elves, etc. I did say "fairer" not "fair". To get the prejudices out of the laws would be a great achievement, but it'll take years, to get it out of the wizards' minds it'll takes decades if not centuries. Anyway, as Dumbledore said, we wizards have mistreated and abused our fellows for too long, the Wizarding World's system can't last forever, it has to be reformed before it collapse. The Voldemort's wars are symptomatic of it, he build armies from the magical beings' frustrations, he wouldn't have been that powerful if the wizarding world have been fair with them. So, I hope to see a important improvement in that matter for the epilogue. Anyway, the books lead to it, we need a conclusion in that matter too.

I expect Ron to save the Chudley Cannons This one is farfetched, maybe "I expect the Chudley Cannons to do better" would have been more realistic. Still, the team is named in every Harry Potter books, even Fantastic Beast, she must have something in store for it.

I just don't see why they couldn't all become true.

Edit: Thanks mooncalf.

GryffEndora, I think CPR could be a way to say an AKed person, we'll likely learn more of the exact effects of the spell in book 6 and 7.



T Brightwater - Jun 2, 2005 3:23 pm (#2033 of 2971)

I like your optimism, Tomoé! (especially about the Cannons - I've always figured Harry would play professional Quidditch after helping to save the WW.)



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 2, 2005 7:36 pm (#2034 of 2971)

I hope Harry becomes a DADA teacher after his Quidditch career.

I keep thinking about DD consulting one of his "fragile silver instruments" in OoP p. 470 Scholastic he says "in essence divided?" and the smoke splits into two snakes. I think the term essence refers to Harry and Voldemort. Their essence, being, souls are separate. Harry is still separate from Voldemort even though they share a very strong link. I think Harry will have to be willing to make the ultimate sacrifice to vanquish Voldemort. As long as he can hang on to his identity, or essence he has the power to defeat Lord Thingy. LPO



Tomoé - Jun 2, 2005 7:49 pm (#2035 of 2971)

we’re curious as to whether Harry is going to have a life after Hogwarts, or if maybe, Harry might be a Hogwarts teacher.
JKR: Well, because all your kids said ‘hello’ so nicely in the background there, I am going to give you information I haven’t given anyone else and I will tell you that one of the characters, one of Harry’s classmates, though it’s not Harry himself, does end up a teacher at Hogwarts. (The Connection, 12 October, 1999)

So no, Harry is not going to be a DADA teacher.



# Netherlandic - Jun 3, 2005 10:12 am (#2036 of 2971)

I was just thinking along the same line today, LPO. Though of course willing to sacrifice himself doesn't necessarily mean that Harry will die, of course. (Hope he won't).



LooneyLuna - Jun 4, 2005 7:22 am (#2037 of 2971)

I agree with you LPO and Netherlandic. Harry has to be willing to sacrifice himself to save the Wizarding World. Since he's already willing to do that to save his loved ones, I can see Harry maturing enough in the next two books to translate that love to the entire Wizarding World. Death doesn't seem to be a big deal to him, just the next big adventure.

I happen to think that Harry will die or appear to die and then be brought back. Of course, I have no cannon to base that on, just a feeling.



Liz Mann - Jun 4, 2005 8:55 am (#2038 of 2971)

You can't bring back people who are dead. But I do think there will be a moment when we'll be sitting there really tense. Harry will collapse maybe and then the chapter will end and the beginning of the next chapter won't even feature Harry and we'll have to wait to find out what happened.



GryffEndora - Jun 4, 2005 9:09 am (#2039 of 2971)

Liz Mann, there are people who have flat-lined, been declared medically dead and then come back to life. It is rare but it has actually happened.



Liz Mann - Jun 4, 2005 11:25 am (#2040 of 2971)

Oh I know that happens. What I meant was that J.K. has said that once you're dead, you're dead. There is no magic that can bring you back.



GryffEndora - Jun 4, 2005 11:57 am (#2041 of 2971)

Actually what she said was:

We've had petrified people, and we've had what would have been fatal injuries, but once you're dead you're dead. No magic power can resurrect a truly dead person. Hattenstone, Simon. "Harry, Jessica and me," The Guardian, July 8, 2000 Bold mine.

My point is that someone could die, but not be truly dead, and come back. JM2K.



LooneyLuna - Jun 4, 2005 5:09 pm (#2042 of 2971)

Thank you, GryffEndora. You said it much better than me. Harry could also suffer a fate worse than death and then be brought back.



Detail Seeker - Jun 5, 2005 3:25 am (#2043 of 2971)

On killing main characters: Karl May, an author of adventure stories at the end of 19th/ beginning 20th century in Germany, killed of the main character of his "Winnetou" trilogy. And these books did/do have a similar age spectrum of readers as dos our Harry Potter series.

We might have to ask, which role Harry could possibly play after his defeating Voldemort (if he does not succeed, he will - according to the prophecy die in the fight). He may become a spoiled celebrity á la Lockheart or retreat from the WW to prevent himslef from becoming this. The Rita Skeeters and Quibblers will prevent him from becoming a junior auror or taking any "rank and file" job. He will be forced to be something big - or duck out of public sight (work with dragon in Romania??). If JKR finds a good perspective, then Harry can survive, if not, she has to kill him.



Solitaire - Jun 5, 2005 9:59 am (#2044 of 2971)
Edited Jun 5, 2005 10:59 am

If Harry survives, I can see a few different options: One option might be to just retire from the public eye for a bit and either live quietly among the friends who have become his family or start a family of his own, if he has met his true love by the end of the series. He has dearly missed a real family, and I can see this as somethng he would want to pursue if he lives.

A second option might involve joining a professional Quidditch team and just playing Quidditch for a few years. I can see Harry and Ron--and possibly even the Twins--doing something with professional Quidditch. Of course, for F&G, it would be part-time, since the joke shop is the main thing.

A third option could involve pursuing training for a career as an Auror. Didn't Harry say that was the only career he'd ever considered? Even if Voldemort is vanquished, we all know that won't be the end of evil for good. Face it ... sadly, there will always be another waiting in the wings to assume the mantle of evil.

I don't see Harry falling prey to a Lockhart-like ego. He will probably always retain a certain amount of celebrity, whatever happens. Still, I think he would probably do his best to avoid all of the hoopla that Lockhart so assiduously courted and encouraged.

Just my 2 knuts ...

Solitaire



GryffEndora - Jun 5, 2005 12:12 pm (#2045 of 2971)

I think once Harry learns what his parents did for a living he will have another another option for future career besides Auror. JM2K



HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 5, 2005 3:32 pm (#2046 of 2971)

Didn't JKR originally have them in possession of the stone? I wonder if the connection still exists, despite the plot change. Alchemy(?) - maybe that's why DD seemed to know so much about them. It would be neat if Harry had a yet-to-be-discovered forte.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 5, 2005 7:40 pm (#2047 of 2971)

I like your idea HungarianHorntail. There may be something out there that Harry knows nothing about that he has an aptitude for. Though after the horrors he has been through and will undoubtably go through in the next two books Quidditch sounds like a pretty good career. I also like the idea of him settling down and starting a family. LPO



Ydnam96 - Jun 5, 2005 8:36 pm (#2048 of 2971)

Hmmmm Harry could go into business with Olivander. I don't know why that seems like it would be a good fit for him, but it does seem to be (to me at least) something he could do well. Olivander is old and will need someone to take over. Harry has learned a lot about wands in his short life. By the end of this he may be even more knowledgable.



Ms Amanda - Jun 6, 2005 3:28 am (#2049 of 2971)

What an idea! It really got me to thinking.

However, I don't think that Harry would like working in Olivander's shop. He describes it as feeling like a very strict library.

However, that does sound like a place Hermione would enjoy.



Fawkes-The-Phoenix - Jun 6, 2005 12:39 am (#2050 of 2971)

Harry =Gryffindor's Heir?

I really think Harry is Gryffindor's heir, his wand shoots out red and gold sparks,he is very loyal,(in book 2, he pulled out Godric Gryffindor's sword and Fawkes came to him)one of the traits of Gryffindors...and he used to live in a place called Godric's Hollow.(Is my english okay?I'm a Chinese...)

Harry Potter - Page 3 2134391180

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mona
Mona
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Posts 2051 to 2100

Post  Mona Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:52 am



GryffEndora - Jun 6, 2005 8:11 am (#2051 of 2971)

Fawkes-The-Pheonix - Your English is fine. Many many people believe that Harry is Gryffindor's heir as well. However, every time someone mentions the red & gold sparks coming out of his wand I think about the fact that the core of the wand is a feather from a red & gold phoenix. Personally I think the wand sparks are more connected with Fawkes feather than Gryffindor. However, if Fawkes once belonged to Gryffindor or is descended from a phoenix once owned by Gryffindor the connection between the feather & Gryffindor would be more significant to me.



Choices - Jun 6, 2005 8:24 am (#2052 of 2971)
Edited Jun 6, 2005 9:26 am

I think the red and gold sparks is just another thing that is designed by that sly JKR to be ambiguous. One person thinks it connects Harry to Gryffindor as his heir, another thinks it is because Fawkes' feather is in the core, yet another thinks it means Harry is destined to be in Gryffindor House - certainly it could mean any of these..... or all of them.



Joanne R. Reid - Jun 6, 2005 12:24 pm (#2053 of 2971)

Hi, Fawkes The Phoenix,

First, welcome to the Forum. Second, your English is fine.

Third, although I doubt that Harry is Gryffindor's true heir, he might be the next person to take up the challenge of becoming the heir in principle of Gryffindor. In doing so, he would have to continue to lead by example, perhaps becoming a Auror and later a leading political figure within the MoM. I can even envision Harry becoming the youngest, most long lived and most notable Ministers of Magic in the history of the Wizarding World. JM2K

Thanks,



Tomoé - Jun 7, 2005 4:08 pm (#2054 of 2971)

Fawkes-The-Pheonix -> he is very loyal (in book 2, he pulled out Godric Gryffindor's sword and Fawkes came to him), one of the traits of Gryffindor

Er ... wasn't loyalty a traits of Hufflepuff?

Anyway, your English is fine. Welcome to the Forum!



Finn BV - Jun 7, 2005 5:56 pm (#2055 of 2971)

Yes, that's true Tomoé, Hufflepuffers (my own word of which I am very proud) are loyal, but I guess you could just reword it to he is very brave to go after the sword… hmm.

Fawkes-The-Phoenix, welcome to the forum. Your English is very good! Since you are still learning, you might want to know that the type of animal Fawkes is, is spelled "phoenix." You can easily change you user name in the preferences section if you like.

Yes, many people speculate that Harry is Gryffindor's heir. You might want to tool around the "HP6: The Half-Blood Prince" thread, as there are many theories that Godric Gryffindor is the HBP, and Harry is Gryffindor's heir. (This is supported by the fact that the storyline of a Hogwarts Founder's heir was in Book 2, and JKR has said that she almost wove in Book 6's story with Book 2.)



ellebell86 - Jun 7, 2005 7:40 pm (#2056 of 2971)

I don't know if this has been covered before but do students get O.W.L. grade reports sent to them over the summer? He obviously got an outstanding in DADA and did poorly in divination. What kind of grades do you think Harry will get? Will he be allowed to take 6th year potions. I don't think the book would feel right without Harry's weekly doses of Snape. Plus Snape knew Lily and James. No matter how biased he was I think he is a good source for Harry to find out what questions he should ask of less-biased sources.



frogface - Jun 8, 2005 3:48 am (#2057 of 2971)

Yes Harry gets his grades over the summer, its said somewhere in OotP, Harry imagines himself sitting alone in his room in privet drive and getting his results. There was a whole thread dedicated to trying to predict the results of some of the students but I'm not sure if its still around anymore!



Tomoé - Jun 8, 2005 7:09 am (#2058 of 2971)

Yes, the thread is gone.



Choices - Jun 8, 2005 8:20 am (#2059 of 2971)

I am starting GOF again and got to the part last night where Harry goes to the Weasleys before the Quidditch World Cup and the twins have already gotten their O.W.L. grades. Molly is mad cause they didn't get as many as she thought they should.



Liz Mann - Jun 8, 2005 4:15 pm (#2060 of 2971)

I think it is almost certain that Harry gets into Potions because the book on the UK adult cover for HBP is 'Advanced Potions'.

I think he'll pass everything (except perhaps Divination, which he'll be only too happy to quit), but maybe only a handful of subjects above an A (DADA has got to be an O, surely, unless Umbridge somehow managed to have a hand in it, which she shouldn't have).



Tomoé - Jun 8, 2005 7:42 pm (#2061 of 2971)
Edited Jun 8, 2005 8:42 pm

I believe he'll fail abysmally his History of Magic OWL. ^_~



Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 8, 2005 11:56 pm (#2062 of 2971)

Who wouldn't (other than Hermione)? And a T in divination.



Steve Newton - Jun 9, 2005 4:12 am (#2063 of 2971)

I'm predicting that Harry passed Divination. Trelawney seems to be too fun a character to be written out.



Finn BV - Jun 9, 2005 6:17 am (#2064 of 2971)

Yes, she's way too important, too. I think he'll just pass (Ron won't) and he'll be stunned he has to take the course.



frogface - Jun 9, 2005 6:22 am (#2065 of 2971)

But isn't he allowed to drop it now if he wants to? I strongly suspect if he's given the choice he will.



Tomoé - Jun 9, 2005 9:11 am (#2066 of 2971)
Edited Jun 9, 2005 10:14 am

I'd like to see Harry passing Divination, I like Trelawney's classes and I want to see more of Firenze.

Yes, he's allowed to drop the subject and he was quite willing to after the OWL exam, but that was before his world turned upside down. From now on, he could be interested enough in prophecies to keep the subject.

*Edited for clarity*



Liz Mann - Jun 9, 2005 3:17 pm (#2067 of 2971)

And keep an eye on Trelawney for hints of more prophecies.



Miriam Huber - Jun 9, 2005 9:45 pm (#2068 of 2971)

I don´t know. JRK said about Lockhart that he was a "one joke character". For me, ST is a bit of a "three joke character": not as flat as Lockhart, but, after three books, not that interesting any more, either. I won´t have a problem if Harry and Ron give up Divination. If she makes a new real prophecies, we will be informed in some way or the other.



Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 10, 2005 12:16 am (#2069 of 2971)

I can see Trelawny rying to get Harry to stay in her class, a perfect target for her predictions of death. The opposite to Snape who can't wait to get rid of him.



Solitaire - Jun 10, 2005 5:40 am (#2070 of 2971)

This isn't Sibyll's thread, but I do have to say that she does seem to have more of a "purpose" in Harry's life than Lockhart did ... at least, as far as it has been revealed to us. Her prophecies alone keep her tied to Harry, even though I think she is a perfect dingbat! I really do not believe we have seen the last of Sibyll's bizarre prophecies.

Solitaire



Netherlandic - Jun 10, 2005 8:38 am (#2071 of 2971)

I certainly would drop Divinations as soon as possible! LOL. I hope Harry will too. He could use the extra time to study Potions and I would like Harry's (and ours) doses of Snape to continue.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 10, 2005 8:53 am (#2072 of 2971)

I don't think Harry's Astronomy grade will be very good. The exam was interrupted. Of course History of Magic won't be good either. He probably did better in Potions that he thought. He may not have made enough O.W.Ls to begin Auror training. LPO



Netherlandic - Jun 10, 2005 8:57 am (#2073 of 2971)

Good astronomical point, LPO. But then again, Harry wasn't the only person who watched Hagrid being attacked. Perhaps the others didn't do well either for the same reason. I do hope that Dumbledore or the board of examiners will take this into account.



Tomoé - Jun 10, 2005 9:48 am (#2074 of 2971)
Edited Jun 10, 2005 10:52 am

The Astronomy theory paper on Wednesday morning went well enough. So I think he did fine in the theory paper, and if he got half of is map filled correctly for the pratical part, he should be alright for an A.

Now for History of Magic, he answered four questions in all and there were at least 10 questions. Plus he felt very unsure of the poor answers he gave, so a D is very likely.



Solitaire - Jun 10, 2005 11:45 am (#2075 of 2971)

I believe the examiners will take into account the terribly upsetting circumstances and events that occurred right in front of the students during the astronomy OWL. Even the examiner commented on it!

Solitaire



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 10, 2005 12:03 pm (#2076 of 2971)

I wonder if there are retakes? It will be interesting how this reflects on Dolores Jane. Hope we have seen the last of her. I love how DD informed Fudge to send him letters addressed to the Headmaster. I hope DD can give the students another chance with their exams. LPO



Eric Bailey - Jun 10, 2005 12:40 pm (#2077 of 2971)

The Astronomy OWL could just be graded on a curve. They'll likely do something given the circumstances, retaking it being one option.

Anyway, I think Harry will get his O in Potions, and get the neccessary scores in DADA, Tranfiguration, and Charms to advance to the NEWT levels. An O in COMC seems a lock. JKR wouldn't have made such a big thing about what it takes to be an Auror if she wasn't going somewhere with it. I know a lot of fans want Harry to be a professional Quiddich player after he leaves school, but the character has reached a point where he feels there's more important things than games. He'll get the neccessary OWL scores to advance, and if it ever comes to a point where he has to drop Quiddich or one of the subjects he needs for his chosen career path, he'll drop Quiddich.



frogface - Jun 11, 2005 2:06 am (#2078 of 2971)

I wouldn't have agreed with you Eric until after reading book 5. Harry knows he's got responsibility if anything now. An learning the skills an auror has will mostly likely be vital if he's going to have any chance of defeating mouldy voldy. Harry is smart enough to understand that. I hope he doesn't give up quidditch though, it helps him alot i think to concentrate on quidditch because it cheers him up immensly when he's flying, and he's good at it.



vball man - Jun 11, 2005 8:07 pm (#2079 of 2971)
Edited Jun 11, 2005 10:21 pm

Quidditch - a metaphor for Harry's life?

If this has been discussed already, please let me know - or delete the thread, or whatever...

I've been wondering if Quidditch is a metaphor for Harry's life.

In Quidditch, goals are scored by players in a similar manner to Basketball or Soccer. However, in Quidditch, there is another struggle going on which has little connection to the goal scoring players. That is the struggle for the Golden Snitch.

Sure, the seeker is on the same playing field as the other players, but he doesn't try to score goals. Also, no other player tries to catch the golden snitch.

The scoring system puts huge importance on the effort of the two seekers. In fact, it makes the collective effort of the other 12 players less valuable - and often of no value. (At least in the outcome of one particular game.)

The metaphor is thus:
Harry is in a battle against Voldemort. They will struggle against each other until one of them wins. They will struggle in the same wizarding world as the rest of the participants in the "war." But their struggle is theirs alone. No one can fight Harry's battle for him.

Harry's victory or defeat is far more important to his team than the effort of the rest of the "team," although they will undoubtedly fight to the best of their ability for the Order.

If Harry wins, they all win. (Good guys)
If Harry looses, they all do.



far from prefect - Jun 11, 2005 8:07 pm (#2080 of 2971)

Interesting idea, vb. So the rest of the Order are one team and they are fighting the opposing team, the Death Eaters. This battle has been and will continue to rage around the contest between Harry and LV. The rest of the wizarding world is in the stands watching the match. Hmm... have to ponder this one... Surprised)



dizzy lizzy - Jun 11, 2005 8:44 pm (#2081 of 2971)

mmmm I really really love this idea Vball man. I'm just gonna get a cuppa tea and go away and think about it...

Lizzy



HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 12, 2005 3:59 am (#2082 of 2971)

What a great parallel, vball man. When Harry got knocked out (in PoA), the team lost.

You really come up with some good ones! What do you eat for breakfast everyday? LOL



Steve Newton - Jun 12, 2005 5:57 am (#2083 of 2971)

I've read somewhere (Round Pink Spider?) that each Quidditch game represents one of the books. Harry has been seen in 7 games thus far and will probably not play any more. I haven't checked this in quite a while. I have no memory of which game would represent which book, or, more specifically, which game would represent HBP.



Solitaire - Jun 12, 2005 9:21 am (#2084 of 2971)

In the last game he played, the "bad guy" (Umbridge) banned him for life, didn't she? Then SHE was taken out of Hogwarts. If that game is a metaphor for book 7, does that mean he will be "taken out" of the game of life for good by bad guy Voldemort? I hope not, even if it does mean Voldemort is also taken out.

Solitaire



vball man - Jun 12, 2005 10:17 am (#2085 of 2971)

Solitaire, yikes!
Thanks, HH! It came to me this way: The thing is that quidditch has bothered me for a while. I love sports - especially volleyball. Part of what makes team sports so interesting is the team dynamic. Each player depends on the others to do their part. Serving - serve receive - passing - setting - killing - blocking - offensive transition. It's like a chain. One link is weak, and the whole team is vulnerable.
But in quidditch, it seems like the rest of the team could do nothing and Harry could still win the game. It doesn't seem to me that JKR would miss this. But then, I thought, life is sometimes like that. Actually, Harry's life is like that....



GryffEndora - Jun 12, 2005 10:24 am (#2086 of 2971)

I'm pretty sure the 7th Quidditch game represents HBP and the 6th Quidditch game represents book 7. For some reason they are reversed, it has to do with the game DD is needed to be there for. Round Pink Spider is the one to get further enlightenment from. Anything I tell you will be regurgitation from her at this point. RPS definately believes Harry will be "taken out" or confined somewhere at the end of HBP. I'm starting to see the end of HBP as a 2 year cliff-hanger where we spend the time "angsting" about what will happen.



T Brightwater - Jun 13, 2005 4:56 am (#2087 of 2971)

vball man, very astute! However, we've seen two games where a Seeker caught the Snitch but his/her team still lost - the World Cup and Gryffindor vs. Hufflepuff in OotP.



applepie - Jun 13, 2005 11:41 am (#2088 of 2971)

Vball - great theory.

Tbrightwater - I guess we could attribute that to Harry losing people he loves (parents, Sirius, those to come) even though he may win the game.



vball man - Jun 13, 2005 3:20 pm (#2089 of 2971)

Thanks, everybody. Also, I realized one thing that I left off.

In both cases, I think that Harry's ability to compete well is not something that he learned in a book, trained in, or did anything to obtain.

He's just good at flying. Sure, Harry insists on training, but we see very little of him training as a seeker. He seems to be quite excellent on his first try.

His power that the dark lord knows not was given to him as a baby - he did nothing to earn it. I don't know if this power was from his mom or from Voldemort.



Solitaire - Jun 13, 2005 3:30 pm (#2090 of 2971)

Vball man, I think the fact that James and Lily were, by all accounts, very talented wizards may account naturally for a certain number of Harry's abilities--flying, perhaps. Wasn't James said to be a good flyer? Perhaps Voldemort's "transfer of powers" simply strengthened and added to what nature had already given him.

Solitaire



Steve Newton - Jun 13, 2005 4:52 pm (#2091 of 2971)

Harry's natural ability at flying struck me the first time that I read it. After a couple of years of pondering, I'm slow, I have some half baked ideas. Many times throughout the books there is reference to Harry hearing a voice in his head. To me the most memorable is when 'Moody' is using the imperius curse to make him jump up on the table. A voice says, "Why, though? Another voice had awoken in the back of his brain." (GOF chapter 15) I then thought that if mothers can have ancient magic when they sacrifice themselves for their children, why not fathers?

So I think that perhaps a bit of James is inside of Harry.



Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 13, 2005 8:05 pm (#2092 of 2971)

So I think that perhaps a bit of James is inside of Harry. - Steve Newton.

That is a very good suggestion. I have oftened wondered who is supposed to be that voice inside Harry's head. I know I don't have voices talking to me...at least, they haven't told me that I should be aware of them yet. Wink

Anyways, who could that "voice" be? Is it just his conscience or are we supposed to think that it is indeed someone else?



lemonbalm&bees - Jun 13, 2005 8:36 pm (#2093 of 2971)

I always just assumed that that voice was only Harry. You know, the "Jiminy-cricket" Harry that was strong enough to retain conciousness under the imperius curse. Although, since we've been hearing a lot about Harry having "some of in him" it's not a bad idea that his concience is somehow influenced by the personalities of others. I've always thought that one of the greatest things about Harry was not even himself, but the people he surrounds himself with, and the "people in his head" could be the sources of some of his decisions. He realizes when Voldemort-like urges rise within him (e.g. wanting to attack Dumbledore) because the way Voldemort thinks is so different from his own. However, if his mother left some of herself in him, could it not also be possible that he experiences some things in a Lily-like fashion? He just does not tend to differentiate this voice from his own because it is so similar to himself anyway. However, when he was under the imperius curse, the "Harry" part of his concience was less self-aware, giving the Lily/whoever part greater prominence. So, can Harry resist things like the imperius curse because of the "voices inside his head" or is he just that strong in character and will?



Steve Newton - Jun 14, 2005 2:46 am (#2094 of 2971)

Yes, it could be Lily, but the natural affinity to flying suggested James to me.



Miriam Huber - Jun 14, 2005 3:18 am (#2095 of 2971)

I tend to think that it is genuinely part of Harry. And of course, we all inherited character traits and things like that from our parents, but I will not "dissect" Harry: this is from James, this is from Lily... He is Harry, it is all his.

The only difference, of couse, is the bit Voldemort put in him. That is "alien". But I also wouldn´t be too quick to attribute something to his "Voldemort-bit" when it is not clearly related to hurting scar or seeing visions.

Harry is our hero not because he is the cake baked of so many (mostly good) influenced, but because he is, as a complete person, who he is - wherever (if) he "got" this or that from.



vball man - Jun 14, 2005 5:49 am (#2096 of 2971)

Vball man, I think the fact that James and Lily were, by all accounts, very talented wizards may account naturally for a certain number of Harry's abilities--flying, perhaps. Wasn't James said to be a good flyer? Perhaps Voldemort's "transfer of powers" simply strengthened and added to what nature had already given him. - Solitaire

Yeah - that's what I mean. His flying skills were inherited from his dad. He didn't do anything to be a good flyer.

As far as the voice, I think that this is JKR's way of describing a conversation between our inner self. We normally don't get to hear it - but the imperius curse forces you inside yourself. So you can hear the person cursing you and your own conscience in different voices. So maybe if you ignore your "Jiminy Cricket" (conscience) in your everyday life, then your conscience becomes relatively silent. So once under imperius, all you hear is the voice of the person cursing you. You're vulnerable. With this theory, the only way to protect yourself against the imperius curse is years of living according to what is right, rather than what is easy.

As the Pirate King says,
Always act in accordance with the dictates of your conscience, my boy, and chance the consequences!



lemonbalm&bees - Jun 14, 2005 8:34 am (#2097 of 2971)

I like your explanation vball man. A highly developed concience is what enables your character to be strong enough to resist the imperius curse. And I'd like to think that our hero chooses to listen to his at the appropriate times. (who ever thought that you could "work out" your concience as if it were a muscle?)



Steve Newton - Jun 14, 2005 10:04 am (#2098 of 2971)

The voice could be Harry's conscience but using such ambiguities has let JKR fool us before.



Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 14, 2005 10:05 am (#2099 of 2971)

Well isn't it often in the text that we read, "a voice like Hermoine's told him...", etc.?



GryffEndora - Jun 14, 2005 10:25 am (#2100 of 2971)

The reference to a voice that often sounded like Hermione's has made me think it is Lily's voice that Harry hears in his head. I've thought this for quite some time but needed to find the time to say it. He has his father's looks and talents but he has his mother's eyes. Eyes are the window to your soul. I think he has a bit of Lily's soul in him, protecting & guiding him, part of the ancient magic that protects him at the Dursleys. I just think he identifies the voice with Hermione because Hermione talks to him like a mother would to a child and because the only time he's heard his mother's voice she was pleading for Harry's life or screaming. The voice could definately just be his conscience but, if it were Harry's inner monologue why is he hearing it in a female voice? I though your inner monologue was your voice? Maybe I've made an erroneous assumption. Anyway, I think it's Lily.

Harry Potter - Page 3 2134391180

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mona
Mona
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Posts 2101 to 2150

Post  Mona Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:54 am



vball man - Jun 14, 2005 10:41 am (#2101 of 2971)

A "voice like Hermione's"
I think of this as the voice of "what ought to be done." Hermione is constantly saying things like "be careful," "do your homework," and "be kind to everyone." Harry hears what ought to be done spoken in Hermione's voice because, in his experience, that is the voice that says such things.

Steve, you're right that it may not be conscience. I just think that it makes sense and would be connsistent.



librarian314 - Jun 14, 2005 10:43 am (#2102 of 2971)

Hey all!

I think that most of us have "voices" in our heads that tell us to do things. (No, we aren't all mentally ill :-) ) It's just that when we hear someone say something over and over again, those phrases and the associated memories take on that person's voice. When ever I drive in snow, I think back to my grandmother's cautions about driving in snow. I "hear" her voice saying, "Go slow; no quick movements."

When Harry "hears" Hermione, I think he's remembering times when she's said similar things or is imagining what she might say. I think the voice he hears whilst under the Imperious is his inner voice, that voice one hears when you think about things, an inner dialogue if you will.

I may be coming out of the cereal box (revealing myself as a flake ;-) ) but I have these little dialogues with myself constantly. "Michelle, why are you going this way! The store is that way!" "Hmmm, what do I want to do about supper this evening?" "Aww, isn't that cute!" "I'll have to look that up, better go to the Lexicon!"

So, anyway, I think the "voices" are just Harry's internal dialogue that sometimes, when they say something typical of someone he knows, takes on their voice.

Y'all take care!

# *michelle the librarian**



frogface - Jun 14, 2005 11:04 am (#2103 of 2971)

I hear voices in my head when I think. I think some people just think that way. But then again michelle we could just both be bonkers Smile



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 14, 2005 2:02 pm (#2104 of 2971)

Well said Michelle! I have to admit I often "hear" voices in my head that sound remarkably like my mother, father or certain friends.

Harry is a good student but not brilliant like James and Sirius. Harry is a powerful wizard though. I think when Harry was able to fight off the cruciatus curse he "heard" the voice of his own connection with magic. LPO



Solitaire - Jun 14, 2005 4:26 pm (#2105 of 2971)

It's interesting to speculate about what kind of student Harry might have been had he been raised in a Wizarding home--or even an intellectually rich and encouraging Muggle home--rather than the emotionally and intellectually stunted and stifling Dursely household.

Solitaire



Mediwitch - Jun 14, 2005 7:18 pm (#2106 of 2971)
Edited Jun 14, 2005 8:18 pm

Some people think in words (a linguistic symbol system), while others think in pictures (a visual symbol system). I think Harry "hears" Hermione's voice because he is thinking in words...and because Hermione acts as the conscience of the trio so often, it "sounds" like her voice.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 16, 2005 5:52 pm (#2107 of 2971)

Maybe he keeps opening that Christmas present he'd gotten from Hermoine - the agenda book! LOL



Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 16, 2005 6:06 pm (#2108 of 2971)

I posted this in the HBP thread, but I'll post it here, too. Does anyone else think that Harry is going to be Quidditch captain?



Mediwitch - Jun 16, 2005 6:09 pm (#2109 of 2971)

Nope. I think it will be Ron. Several of the things he "saw" in the Mirror of Erised have come true (prefect, Quiddditch cup) already, so perhaps he will achieve his dreams. Besides, Dumbledore didn't make Harry prefect because he had "enough to be going on with"; I doubt Harry will be made Quidditch captain for that reason.



Eponine - Jun 16, 2005 6:09 pm (#2110 of 2971)

I do not think Harry is going to be Quidditch captain. I don't really have an opinion on who it's going to be, just that it won't be Harry. I think he has enough to be getting along with, and that will be taken into account when the new captain is chosen.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 16, 2005 6:48 pm (#2111 of 2971)

I think McGonagall will choose the new captain. I'm not sure how much Dumbledore has to say about it. Harry has been on the team the longest. It might be good for him to be captain. LPO



Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 16, 2005 6:48 pm (#2112 of 2971)

I agree with what you on what Dumbledore said, but I feel that he will be chosen as captain BECAUSE of that. I mean, that Dumbledore will have seen that it hurt Harry's feelings NOT to have chosen him as a prefect so he won't want to make that same mistake. And this time around he'll see that he needs to show Harry that he has confidence in him so he'll reccommend to MM that she choose Harry as captain.



Steve Newton - Jun 16, 2005 6:51 pm (#2113 of 2971)

I think that the new captain will be Ron. Harry has more to do now, fight a war, for instance. I also don't think that he knows enough about the game to be a captain. It is mentioned a couple of times that he doesn't see the other players while he is looking for the snitch.



Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 16, 2005 7:02 pm (#2114 of 2971)

It is mentioned a couple of times that he doesn't see the other players while he is looking for the snitch.

Ooh Steve, that's true! I hadn't thought about that. I guess I'll just have to resign myself to the fact that it will probably be Ron...



Mrs Brisbee - Jun 16, 2005 7:03 pm (#2115 of 2971)

Or Katie Bell.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 16, 2005 7:08 pm (#2116 of 2971)
Edited Jun 16, 2005 8:09 pm

Ron may know more about the game but he has not been on the team very long. Ron needs to develop leadership skills. Harry is still a student. We know he has to defeat Voldemort by year 7 but he doesn't and neither do Dumbledore and McGonagall. It would be good for Ron. I wouldn't mind it being either one. I think Harry should be allowed to give it a shot. All work and no play.... LPO



Solitaire - Jun 16, 2005 7:52 pm (#2117 of 2971)
Edited Jun 16, 2005 8:54 pm

I agree that Harry still has too much on his plate to be Quidditch captain. He loves the game, but I'm not really sure he would even want to be captain. Katie Bell, if she is still there, would certainly have the seniority and experience to be captain. Ron might be another good choice, as it would help his leadership skills. I could even see Ginny as a future captain before I see Harry in that spot.

I tend to think that Harry might be considered for Head Boy when he is a 7th year. I think that position would serve as a sort of "link" with his dad and Mom. JM2K ...

Solitaire



Ydnam96 - Jun 16, 2005 8:12 pm (#2118 of 2971)

You know, I don't think of Harry as Head Boy when I really think about it. It's just not him, you know? He's far too reckless (I mean that in the nicest way possible). Honestly I think he would be better off just as a normal student in year 7, seeing as he's gonna be a little busy (I mean that's what I assume anyway). A good hufflepuff would make a good Head Boy, or maybe even Neville?



Tomoé - Jun 16, 2005 8:21 pm (#2119 of 2971)

I believe Harry will become the Quidditch captain for HbP, because he'll ask for it. No one will dare to say no, after all the simple thing we all take for granted that have been denied to him. After Cedric death, he was glad to clear 12GP because it occupied his mind, I believe he'll take as much duties as he can just to stop thinking of Sirius, Quidditch Captaincy will be one of them.

Plus, James was Captain, so Snape will be so furious about the second Potter becoming captain too that Harry just have to be the one. ^_~

As for Ron, he'll become captain for year 7, Dumbledore will be dead, the Order will be in chaos, Hogwarts will be expecting an attack any time soon and Harry will invest all his energy to prepare himself for his final fight against Voldemort. Ron's confidence is not stable enough yet to allow him to become Captain. Since JKR said: The question is, whether the new Quidditch Captain will allow [Ron] to stay!, I believe Ron won't be the Captain.



Solitaire - Jun 16, 2005 11:34 pm (#2120 of 2971)

Actually, Ernie MacMillan seems to be positioning himself for head boy ... but I've wondered if Harry might not get it, since James did. It's just an idle thought ...

Solitaire



frogface - Jun 17, 2005 3:35 am (#2121 of 2971)

Well Tomoe, thanx for all that information, Shall I not bother buying books 6 and 7 now then? Razz

I'd like to see Harry as team captain, as to whether or not it will happen I honestly have no idea.



Catherine - Jun 17, 2005 3:51 am (#2122 of 2971)

The question is, whether the new Quidditch Captain will allow [Ron] to stay!, I believe Ron won't be the Captain. -Tomoe

I can't imagine Harry, Ginny, or Katie disallowing Ron from the team, so it must be someone totally new.



Mrs Brisbee - Jun 17, 2005 5:59 am (#2123 of 2971)

Does Harry even want to be Quidditch captain? I don't remember him ever showing any interest in the position, and I can't see why he would need the position just because James had it. I think the only way he would get it is if it would be good for the team. The same goes for head boy. Would it be good for Hogwarts? I think another student, like Ernie Macmillan, might be perfectly fine for head boy, but a lot can change in a year. The head boy needs to be someone who can unite the school.



Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 17, 2005 6:00 am (#2124 of 2971)

I can't really see why they would make someone new be the captain if they would be new to the team also? Wouldn't they want someone who is familiar with the current members? I have thought about Katie Bell, but since this is her last year, I just thought that it would do better to have someone stick around for awhile (e.g. Angelina was only captain for one year, and if MM sticks with that trend of making 7th years captains of Quidditch then you switch every year and that would get sickening for the rest of the team).

I could see Harry as Head Boy, but only because it seems as if he's following in his father's footsteps. Was James Quidditch captain? I can't remember at the moment.



Not So Headless Nikki - Jun 17, 2005 6:01 am (#2125 of 2971)

Who better to unite the school than Harry? Wink



Eponine - Jun 17, 2005 6:04 am (#2126 of 2971)

I don't see Harry as Head Boy either. Choosing from the prefects from Harry's year, I think it's most likely to be Ernie MacMillan. I know that you don't have to be a prefect in order to be Head Boy, but Harry as HB just doesn't seem likely to me.

As far as Quidditch captain goes, some people I know interpret her quote about the new captain letting Ron stay on as a joke because it's going to be Ron.



Joanne R. Reid - Jun 17, 2005 7:49 am (#2127 of 2971)

Hi,

I'd suggest that Katie has seniority and the experience to be the next Gryffindor Quidditch captain.

Harry could become Head Boy in spite of not being Prefect. As we remember James was not Prefect(Remus was), but was Head Boy. So, being a 'trouble maker' may be a deterent to being prefect, but ...

Thanks,



Ydnam96 - Jun 17, 2005 8:12 am (#2128 of 2971)

Ducks as she asks this question:

But other than Hagrid saying "they were head boy and girl in their day" (or something like that) is it said anywhere else that James was actually the official Head Boy?
When I first read this line I assumed it was Hagrid saying that James and Lilly were his favorites and quite popular with the students but didn't really see it as an explination of who was the "actual" head boy. I could be way off. Maybe JK talked about it in an interview or such. But I have a hard time seeing James (as impulsive and cocky as he was, being head boy).

Runs away to avoid bat boggy hexes.



Tomoé - Jun 17, 2005 8:24 am (#2129 of 2971)
Edited Jun 17, 2005 9:29 am

frogface -> Well Tomoe, thanx for all that information, Shall I not bother buying books 6 and 7 now then? Razz

You should bother buying the books anyway, if only for the arts. (I feal like I'm going to eat a lot of stoat sandwitches this summer)

Tomoé -> The question is, whether the new Quidditch Captain will allow [Ron] to stay!, I believe Ron won't be the Captain.

Catherine -> I can't imagine Harry, Ginny, or Katie disallowing Ron from the team, so it must be someone totally new.

It depends of a lot of factors,
1) will Ron be able to be as focus as he was in the match agaisnt Ravenclaw or will the pressure to do as good as he did in that match will be too much for him to handle and be back to his pathetic performances of OoP
2) Pucey and Bletchley have been on the Slytherin team since Harry's first year, Warrington was as old as Angelina, Montague could still be incapaciated next year (even if he can resume classes) and with Snape's favoritism for Draco, Malfoy could be the next Captain of the Slytherin team. So maybe Ginny or Harry will want badly enough to avoid losing face to the Slytherin so they'll be ready to replace Ron if he can't deliver a decent performance. As for Katie, where did you get the idea she wouldn't want to replace Ron?
3) We don't know alot about the two other teams, but Hufflepuff won is match against the Slytherin in OoP, maybe Gryffindor and Slytherin won't be the only contender this year (but maybe the defeat of the Slytherin was due to their Captain's absence)

Mrs Brisbee -> Does Harry even want to be Quidditch captain? I don't remember him ever showing any interest in the position

Do you remember him fancing being prefect? He was very desapointed none the less.

Mrs Brisbee -> I can't see why he would need the position just because James had it.

It's just because I want to see Snape furious over it. ^_~

I don't see Harry HeadBoy either, I don't think he'd like the work that comes with the title. Ernie Macmillan would be my bet, though I have the glooming felling it will be Ron.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 17, 2005 8:43 am (#2130 of 2971)

Gosh Tomoe your earlier post was very depressing! This may be rude but I hope in the case of Dumbledore you have to eat a stoat sandwich. I forgot about Katie. I imagine she will be captain. If the Mirror of Erised is correct Ron has a chance.

Harry would make a good head boy. It would be away for him to unite the houses. I hope Hermione is Head Girl. LPO



Tomoé - Jun 17, 2005 9:23 am (#2131 of 2971)

Gosh Tomoe your earlier post was very depressing!

I'm expecting a ruthless bloodbath, so if it happens I won't be too disapointed and if it doesn't I'll be even more happy! (I'm soooo wicked ^_~)

Headboy-ship would be a way for Harry to unite the houses, but there are plenty of other ways.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 17, 2005 9:29 am (#2132 of 2971)

As Head Boy, Harry would have easier access to the Prefects of all houses (speaking of uniting). DD considered him for Prefect position but decided against it and must have realized how disappointed Harry was - maybe even felt a bit guilty for holding out so much from Harry. This may play in as a factor when choosing the new Head Boy.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 17, 2005 10:14 am (#2133 of 2971)

Tomoe "prepare for the worst but hope for the best" I'm not very prepared. Frankly I'm pleased that Dumbledore has made it this far. Every time Harry notices how old and frail Dumbledore looks I get nervous.

If Harry gets to be Head Boy I am looking forward to Malfoy's reaction. LPO



HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 17, 2005 12:38 pm (#2134 of 2971)

Didn't Virgil say, Fortune favors the brave? Harry seems to be following suit.

I remember reading a quote from JKR saying she values bravery most of all characteristics. Perhaps Harry will be okay after all.



librarian314 - Jun 17, 2005 1:28 pm (#2135 of 2971)

Hey all!

I've got terribly mixed feelings on Harry being head boy. I can actually see it either way.

On one hand, I want him to be head boy. It would be great for him to follow in his parents' footsteps and it would put him a leadership position. James was head boy, as was Bill Weasley, so you don't have to be an uptight git like Percy, to do the job.

On the other hand, I want Ron to get a chance at it. He's been in everybody's shadow since he was born. He deserves a chance to shine on his own. He seems to be the Weasley brother that needs to have outside approval, to feel like he's worth something.

Y'all take care!

# *michelle the librarian**



Mediwitch - Jun 17, 2005 1:33 pm (#2136 of 2971)

Actually, Tomoe, that's part of the reason I think Ron will get it. It's just the kind of tongue-in-cheek comment that JKR likes to make to tantalize us.



GryffEndora - Jun 17, 2005 2:26 pm (#2137 of 2971)

We don't know what kind of Head-Boy Bill was. We never saw it. We can speculate that he was a much better Head Boy than Percy the Big-Head-Boy but we don't actually know. The more I think about Harry following in James' or his parents' footsteps the more I don't want him to. The both died very young. I want Harry to live to a ripe old age with children, grandchildren and fat baby great-grand children all around him, giving him the loving family he so deserves.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 17, 2005 3:08 pm (#2138 of 2971)

GryffEndora Harry is going to live to be a ripe old age, have 12 children and be the Ministry of Magic. Sibyl says so!

If Ron is captain of the Quidditch team Harry should get to be Head Boy, or visa versa. I would like to see more growth in Ron. He hopefully can come into his own now that Gred and Forge are gone. Harry has matured into a leader with the DA. Now Ron needs to mature. Judging from winning the Quidditch cup he is starting to. LPO



librarian314 - Jun 17, 2005 6:04 pm (#2139 of 2971)

Hey all!

Actually, the only head boy we've seen, is Percy. We don't really know what James was like either. (Kind of amusing, that after 5 years of school, we only know what one head boy was like. Says something about how important they really are at Hogwarts.)

I understand what you mean, Gryffyndora, about not wanting Harry to be too like his parents. If he had had them all growing up, I wouldn't think he needed to be head boy. But since he didn't, I think having that position, would give him some tangible connections with his parents he may not feel otherwise.

# *michelle the librarian**



Solitaire - Jun 17, 2005 8:41 pm (#2140 of 2971)

Um ... does anyone know has been Head Boy and Head Girl since Percy left? Surely they didn't stop appointing them.

Solitaire



frogface - Jun 18, 2005 2:39 am (#2141 of 2971)

I don't want Harry to be quidditch captain and Ron to be head boy, or visa versa. It would be too....perfect. Do you know what I mean?



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 18, 2005 4:54 am (#2142 of 2971)

Solitaire I don't recall them being mentioned. I assume it is because Harry had nothing to do with them.

Yeah frogface that is too perfect. I hope it isn't Malfoy. LPO



The giant squid - Jun 18, 2005 11:31 pm (#2143 of 2971)
Edited Jun 19, 2005 12:31 am

Michelle/Solitaire--have we heard of any other prefects besides Percy & the prefects from year 5? Like LPO said, if Harry doesn't have a reason to interact with them, we just don't hear about 'em. It's frustrating, but that's the way the story goes.

Just another reason why JKR needs to write Hogwarts, A History--so we can learn all the stuff Harry didn't bother to look into.

--Mike



Solitaire - Jun 19, 2005 8:26 am (#2144 of 2971)

I do think it is interesting that, with all of the trouble that seemed to follow Harry around in the 5th book (thanks to Umbridge), he does not have an encounter with the Head Boy or Girl ... don't you? They would seem the logical choices to handle some of the duties that came to be handled by the Inquisitorial Squad. Is it possible that the HB and HG--in this book, at least--were students who didn't like Umbridge and opted not to do her wishes?

Hm ... I wonder if this discussion needs to go elsewhere if it continues--the Hogwarts thread, perhaps? It does not seem to fit here. Oh, well ...

Solitaire



Doris Crockford - Jun 19, 2005 12:24 pm (#2145 of 2971)
Edited Jun 19, 2005 1:25 pm

If the Head Boy and Girl were from a different house, as well as being a year ahead of Harry, their paths might not have crossed Harry's that much, so they wouldn't have seen Harry much unless they were trailing him. Seamus' mom didn't want him to be near Harry, so if they felt the same way, they would be actively avoiding him. And if Umbridge was dealing with him anyway, they probably wouldn't see any reason to be following him- plus most people hated Umbridge, so they would want to stay as far away from her as possible. Also, it's famous Harry Potter, so they might have been too afraid to punish him for anything, even if he didn't have the same popularity as other years.



Solitaire - Jun 19, 2005 2:36 pm (#2146 of 2971)

I just find it odd that when Ron and Hermione were naming off the other Prefects, they do not also identify the Head Boy and Girl. It seems very UN-Hermione-like, to me.

Solitaire



librarian314 - Jun 20, 2005 7:08 am (#2147 of 2971)

Hey all!

Not being from Britain, how important to the grand scheme of things are Head Boys and Girls? What is it that they do?

The closest thing I can think of here in the States is possibly either Student Body President/Class president. Many high schools (grades 9-12; the last four years of school) have both a class president, someone who is a leader for their class, as well as a student body president who is theoretically in charge of the student government and in their final year of school. Sometimes the person who is head of student government is also class president.

These positions are primarily figure heads and have little real power. They do things like plan social events and occaisionally try to tackle some social issue.

If this is what Head Kids do, then I can really understand why Harry pays them no attention. Most of the time I ignored the Class and Student body presidents.

If, on the other hand, Head Kids/prefects have far more responsibility, as they seem to do, like patrolling the train, helping to keep order, handing out passwords, etc., then the fact that Harry has had little to do with them is odd.

# *michelle the librarian**



Mediwitch - Jun 20, 2005 5:42 pm (#2148 of 2971)

Hello librarian314!

I think that the student resident assistant (RA) models used by many of the colleges and universities in the US are probably closer to the prefect/head boy & girl system than class officers are. Students who are chosen as RAs (sometimes they are called something different) are responsible for enforcing rules in dormitories, and can include patrolling the halls, monitoring those who enter the dorm, etc. At many schools, the RAs don't hand out discipline/punishments, but rather refer the offender(s) to adults (resident directors, Dean of Students, etc.).

The student government systems are more like the federal or state government, while the RAs/prefects & head students are more like a limited law enforcement agency. Does that make sense?



librarian314 - Jun 21, 2005 9:01 am (#2149 of 2971)

Thanks, it certainly does!

Since the only RAs I remember are the one who lived next door to me and the one that got a bunch of us in trouble for having a party, they were only slightly more helpful than those in student government. I can see why Harry doesn't mention them all that often. He mentions the ones that impact him personally: his friends and best friend's brother.

# *michelle the librarian**



Liz Mann - Jun 22, 2005 7:57 am (#2150 of 2971)
Edited Jun 22, 2005 8:58 am

The Head Boy and Girl are the leaders of the prefects. Second to the teachers they have the most authority in the school and basically help the teachers with their job of keeping everything in order and making sure the students behave. They have to have an authoritive personality, which is why I don't think Ron will be Head Boy. Harry might but it could well be that neither of them makes the cut. Hermione will almost certainly be Head Girl, though.

I was re-reading OotP today, and it occured to me... could it be possible that Harry's dramatic increase in irrational anger (and sometimes violence) could be somehow connected to his link with Voldemort? I mean, we've all been assuming it's just Harry's personality, but the change was quite sudden and it was after Voldemort returned. We know Harry often feels what Voldemort's feeling at any given time ("...he often felt lurches of annoyance or cheerfulness that were unrelated to what was happening at the time.") Obviously the anger has to partly be down to the things that are going on in his life, but I mean things like beating up Malfoy at the slightest provocation - could some of Voldie's personality be being imposed on Harry unintentionally?

Harry Potter - Page 3 2134391180

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mona
Mona
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Posts 2151 to 2200

Post  Mona Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:55 am



Solitaire - Jun 22, 2005 9:28 am (#2151 of 2971)

Liz, I have always believed that much of Harry's extreme anger was a direct result of his link with Voldemort. This is as good a reason as any for Harry to master Occlumency, if you ask me. I almost think that the effects of "channeling," if you will, that extreme anger could be as dangerous to Harry as Voldemort's mind probes.

Solitaire



KWeldon - Jun 22, 2005 9:30 am (#2152 of 2971)

Liz, I've heard others suggest the same thing about Harry's mood being directly connected to Voldemort. I can only hope that, if true, he can overcome it sooner rather than later, because I got frustrated with Harry's attitude in OotP. Oh, and for his sake, too. Wink



Mrs Brisbee - Jun 22, 2005 10:37 am (#2153 of 2971)

I was re-reading OotP today, and it occured to me... could it be possible that Harry's dramatic increase in irrational anger (and sometimes violence) could be somehow connected to his link with Voldemort? --Liz Mann

Possibly, since Voldy's favorite hobby is being enraged. I think that when Harry was feeling (his own, rather understandable) anger in OotP, Voldy was often adding an extra layer of animosity on top of it. Because they were experiencing the same emotion, it was difficult for Harry to detect Voldemort's influence. Once Harry knew what was going on, he could differentiate between his and Voldemort's emotions at least some of the time.



librarian314 - Jun 22, 2005 11:33 am (#2154 of 2971)

Hey all!

I've always thought that Voldemort's anger intensified Harry's anger. There were too many times when something that usually would make Harry feel mildly annoyed would really bug him; the language was such that it seemed as though it came out of nowhere and was unnatural for him.

Though, when I look at what happened to him between the end of his third year and the end of his fifth year, that boy has every right to spitting angry. He faced his parents' betrayer, someone tried to kill him twice, saw a fellow student killed in cold blood and his god father die, in front of him, and was pretty much abandoned to his own devices without any sort of counseling what so ever, two years running. And these are just the worst of a really bad lot.

I'm really glad that his time at Privet Drive is going to be short and that he will have outside contact even when he is there. I hope that lots of people come and visit him. Hermione is perfectly capable of reading a train schedule and hopping on a train to Little Whinging and hanging out with Harry. She could even stay with Mrs. Figg. Not that I expect this but I really don't like the way Harry is pretty much abandoned during the summers when he is at the Dursleys.

# *michelle the librarian**



Aqualu Nifey - Jun 22, 2005 12:06 pm (#2155 of 2971)

I didn't think that Harry's anger had a whole lot to do with Voldemort or anything, but it had more to do with Harry being fifteen and having Sophomoritis. He would be in 10th grade if he were in high school. One symptom of this 'disease' is irritability. There are other symptoms that Harry and his friends seem to posses during their fifth year.

Harry's emotional outbursts are also contributed to the fact that he doesn't have anyone to share his problems with. He pictures Ron and Hermione's reactions before they happen and they don't satisfy him, so he just keeps all his problems pent up inside himself. Then, when there's the slightest agitation, he over-reacts more than he normally would because all of his problems are bothering him and it's another problem that he can't express himself to his friends.

If this is added to his sophomoric irritability and the fact that he IS Harry Potter and HAS experienced so much, it's perfectly understandable that he blows up every so often this year. Next year, though, he'll be older and wiser and will be able to talk more, because of his early departure from the Dursley's.



Mrs Brisbee - Jun 22, 2005 1:04 pm (#2156 of 2971)

I do have to agree with Michelle the Librarian and Aqualu Nifey that Harry's anger in OotP was perfectly realistic considering everything he went through without needing to attribute it to Voldemort. I wouldn't even think of looking for any other explanation if it weren't for that odd connection that allows for Harry to pick up on Voldemort's mood. That might have been enough to tip Harry over the edge a few times. But mostly I think it was just Harry.



Joanne R. Reid - Jun 22, 2005 2:22 pm (#2157 of 2971)
Edited Jun 22, 2005 3:24 pm

Hi,

IMHO, Harry's fits of ill-temper are not only normal for a boy of fifteen, in the early stages of puberty, who has been attacked, almost killed, seen a fellow student killed before his very eyes, and was then abandoned ... physically, socially and emotionally ... by everyone who could possibly have helped him. Instead, he was forced to live with people who hate and mistreat him. He was attacked by the most deadly of foes. He was abused by the entire wizarding world. And, he really was misunderstood.

Yet, during this last year, he has learned to absorb the most vile treatment and abuse. He has overcome and even triumphed against foes that would surely have vanquished lesser opponents. He has become a valued leader, a role model and a powerful force in the wizarding world.

Not bad!

Accio! Half-Blood Prince!

Thanks,



Liz Mann - Jun 22, 2005 2:59 pm (#2158 of 2971)

I agree that Harry's anger was perfectly understandable considering everything he went through. But it's the way he reacts to the anger sometimes. I'm particuarly thinking of when he beat up Malfoy. He's standing there, listening to Mrs Weasley being abused and trying hard to hold George back, and then Malfoy says one thing about Lily (not the worst he's ever said) and Harry immediately beats him to a pulp, which was a really unacceptable thing to do (even if it was Malfoy), especially at so little provocation. Could Voldemort's influence have been a factor there?



Choices - Jun 22, 2005 5:30 pm (#2159 of 2971)

Liz Mann - "......which was a really unacceptable thing to do"

That was very wrong of you Harry, very wrong indeed! {{Hehehehe, go Harry!}} LOL



Marie E. - Jun 22, 2005 6:21 pm (#2160 of 2971)

It's entirely possible that Harry's newfound rage is a combination of teen angst, recent events, and his link with Voldemort. When you add all these things up it's no surprise that he took a swing at Voldemort.



Joanne R. Reid - Jun 22, 2005 6:38 pm (#2161 of 2971)

Hi, Liz,

I thought the brawl was just a routine combination of things that we've all seen at sporting events. First, the testosterone gets up. Then, the tempers flare. Then, there's an agregious foul. Then, there's the taunt, that really cuts to the quick. A few blows are struck.

Bye the way, Harry did not beat Malfoy to a pulp. Everyone got an equal distribution of abrasions and contusions.

What struck me was the inequitable treatments. Obviously, neither Harry, Fred or George merited lifetime banishments. And, Goyle got lines? I'm sure he didn't have to use the infamous Bloody-Letting Pen. And, I'm sure that Snape didn't see anything wrong with the comportment or deportment of his team, while McGonagall was outraged and had prepared severe punishments for everyone involved.

Actually, Hermione had the only answer to such a dilema. She suggested that all the Quidditch teams be disbandoned, since they did exacerbate the existing rivalries between Houses, guaranteeing such incidents in the future.

Thanks,



Hollywand - Jun 22, 2005 8:22 pm (#2162 of 2971)
Edited Jun 22, 2005 9:23 pm

Order of the Phoenix suggests Harry's struggle with his growing strength througout the text, beginning with his altercation with Dudley at the beginning of the book. Rowling suggests an increased intensity of emotion coupled with a raw physicality to Harry's magical powers that are seductive and difficult for Harry to control. I wouldn't be surprised if these powers continue to crescendo within Harry, and he must learn to temper his power in Book Six. Retreat from the brute power that corrupted Tom Riddle. While Voldemort certainly plays a seductive role in Book Six, I am inclined to think that much of the vitriol and rashness is Harry's.



jose043 - Jun 23, 2005 5:07 am (#2163 of 2971)
Edited Jun 23, 2005 6:10 am

Hi All

The reason Harry, has become so angry while he has been living at the Dursley, he has always been told don't ever ask questions. Harry has always been bullied by Dudley and his gang of friends.

If you had been bullied by a fellow student in relation to your parents wouldn't you have re-acted in the same way as Harry did on the Quiditch pitch that day?

Voldemort has defiantly put some of his angry into Harry as Voldemort transferred some of his powers to Harry when he gave him that scar. This is why Harry can fell all the different emotions when Voldemort is angry or in a vindictive mood.

So naturally Harry is going to show a lot of anger and frustration towards things he doesn't know or understand as he was never told the truth to his past until the end of book five.

Josephine

P.S. My daughter helped me write this as she is a Harry Potter fan to the max. She can't wait until book six, roll on the 16th July. HAHAHAHA



rambkowalczyk - Jun 23, 2005 7:12 am (#2164 of 2971)

Harry's anger seems consistent with his age. Book 3 was when he started talking back to the Dursleys especially after Aunt Marge's taunts. He was angry at Ron when Ron didn't believe him about the Goblet of Fire. Although he seemed more explosive in his 5th year he also had not only more stress but less of the activities that made his life bearable. (kicked off Quidditch, no way to communicate to Sirius.) I don't think his connection with Voldemort affected his anger all that much.

I think he is still going to be angry in book 6 and most of it is going to be directed at Snape.



Miriam Huber - Jun 23, 2005 9:40 am (#2165 of 2971)

I think we can tell the two sorts of anger - Harry´s real one and the one from Voldemort - relatively clearly apart:

Harry overreacts to situations, and many have very rightly pointed out that this is normal for a boy his age and especially with his past and under his circumstances. But he OVERreacts, there is a cause to his anger.

The Voldemort-feelings, however, are not connected with something he is experiencing at the moment. Someone quoted a passage a few posts ago that stated this quite clearly. Think of him wanting to bite Dumbledore, laughing while his scar burned so badly he was going to vomit the night the DEs escaped and, especially, that incident in Umbridge´s office where he felt Voldemort´s happiness and even could not recognize it as happiness because he was so miserable himself.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 24, 2005 5:01 am (#2166 of 2971)

This has probably been discussed, but seeing that there are many theories linking Harry to GG, I thought I'd bring it up. Harry's birth date falls into the Leo (lion) zodiac sign. Could that be another indicator that he may be related to GG?



Mrs Brisbee - Jun 24, 2005 5:31 am (#2167 of 2971)
Edited Jun 24, 2005 6:34 am

I think Rowling is just using the lion symbol to indicate bravery. Harry may, or may not, be related to Godric Gryffindor, but he is definitely courageous. When it comes to Zodiac signs though, remember that about 1 in 12 people will be born under the sign of Leo. I don't think it means they are related to GG. It would be very odd if GG's descendents only ever get born in the middle of summer.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 24, 2005 5:44 am (#2168 of 2971)

If Harry's zodiac sign was the only reference hinting at this, I'd say I'm definitely reaching, but there are other indicators.

If more people are born in the spring (for instance) than any other time of year, then the ratio would be much different than 1 in 12.



Hollywand - Jun 24, 2005 5:49 am (#2169 of 2971)
Edited Jun 24, 2005 6:52 am

I'm pretty sure Jo's birthday is July 31. I think that, as an artist, she took the symbols associated with her personal birthdate and built the Harry Potter symbolism.

It's kind of funny to realize that if she had been born on, say March 31st, or February 14th, perhaps there would be no Harry Potter.



Mrs Brisbee - Jun 24, 2005 5:59 am (#2170 of 2971)
Edited Jun 24, 2005 7:21 am

HH, I think you are right and the human birth rate isn't evenly distributed throughout the year, but I don't know exactly what it is. So I was using 'about 1 in 12' loosely

Anyway, Neville is a Leo, and Regulus Black is named for the heart star of the constellation Leo. So I'm really not sure what stock to put put in the idea that Zodiac Leo might mean a blood relation to GG.

Edit: If Harry's zodiac sign was the only reference hinting at this, I'd say I'm definitely reaching, but there are other indicators. --HungerianHorntail11

I'm going to concede the point that it is possible that it is one of many pieces of circumstantial evidence which taken together might be convincing.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 24, 2005 6:28 am (#2171 of 2971)

All Leos don't necessarily have to be GG descendants, but a Leo who pulls GG's sword out of a hat seems to have more meaning. Kind of like, all rectangles are squares, but all squares aren't rectangles.

So I'm really not sure what stock to put put in the idea that Zodiac Leo might mean a blood relation to GG.

Neither do I, LOL. I just thought it was worth a closer look since it seemed like another link to GG along with other hints.



Choices - Jun 24, 2005 8:11 am (#2172 of 2971)

I would say all the clues - the Leo thing, his wand shooting red and gold sparks at Ollivander's, the sword and the "true Gryffindor" comment, Fawkes coming to Harry, the Potters lived in Godric's Hollow, the Sorting Hat put Harry in Gryffindor, and Harry is noted for his bravery - all hint that he is a descendant of Godric Gryffindor, in my opinion.



applepie - Jun 24, 2005 8:33 am (#2173 of 2971)

Definitely, Choices. I would be very surprised if we were to learn otherwise.



Mrs Brisbee - Jun 24, 2005 10:47 am (#2174 of 2971)
Edited Jun 24, 2005 11:50 am

I would say all the clues - the Leo thing, his wand shooting red and gold sparks at Ollivander's, the sword and the "true Gryffindor" comment, Fawkes coming to Harry, the Potters lived in Godric's Hollow, the Sorting Hat put Harry in Gryffindor, and Harry is noted for his bravery - all hint that he is a descendant of Godric Gryffindor, in my opinion. --Choices

Okay, that is an impressive list-- but not enough to convince me.

Bravery and everything to do with the Sorting Hat has to do with personality traits of Harry, not his blood.

Red and gold sparks seem to me to indicate the wand core's influence, not Godric.

That just leaves him being a Leo, which might be symbolic of his bravery., and the Potter's living in Godric Hollow, which might mean something or not.

I can't help but be dubious that the whole blood inheritance thing is as important as it is made out to be. In fact, doesn't Rowling stress that it is how you use your abilities and not your bloodline that is important? I think turning the plot into a mano-a-mano fight between the blood heir of Slytherin and the blood heir of Gryffindor sort of goes counter to what Rowling has been trying to get across until now.

Godric Gryffindor also lived 1000 years ago. How much Godric blood would a person living today have in their blood? One hundredth? One Millionth? It's also possible that a majority of the wizards (and possibly the Muggles as well) living in the UK would be descended from him at this point.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 24, 2005 11:15 am (#2175 of 2971)

How much Godric blood would a person living today have in their blood?

I don't know, but look at what it did to TR.

Even if Harry ends up being a descendant, it may not come down to a one-on-one between heirs, as there are too many others involved at this juncture. My best guess is that SS tried to groom little dark wizards and GG figured it out and promised to keep quiet if SS left, so if I am correct (not nearly often enough), a part of this may play out in some manner. If it is between Harry and TR, it would be fitting.

That just leaves him being a Leo You're right, that alone wouldn't prove anything, but it's not the only indication. His parents living in Godrics Hollow (kind of reminds me of Terhune living in Sunnybank). Where does Harry get his personality traits from?

As I've stated, I'm not sure I am completely sold on this thought either, but where there's smoke, there's fire. I will search the books for more clues next week.



Steve Newton - Jun 24, 2005 11:24 am (#2176 of 2971)

Mrs. B, I think that I have noticed hints that Blood is important. I'll have to check, but I think that Hagrid has made a couple of such remarks.

How much Godric blood would someone have today? It could be almost any amount.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 24, 2005 1:07 pm (#2177 of 2971)

Blood is important. Not just to Slytherins. So far many similarities have been pointed out about Tom/Voldemort and Harry (Muggle parent, orphans, disregard for rules...) It would be nice to see more differences. For example if Harry is related to Godric. I hope we find out more about the Potters. LPO



Robert Dierken - Jun 24, 2005 1:13 pm (#2178 of 2971)

Jo's birthdate is 31 July, so I don't think the Leo sign is significant.



Mrs Brisbee - Jun 24, 2005 2:04 pm (#2179 of 2971)
Edited Jun 24, 2005 3:41 pm

Both Robert Dierken and Hollywand have pointed out that Harry's birthday is the same as Rowling's, which is a cute thing for Rowling to do, but I don't think we can rule out Leo being important based on that. Rowling probably is aware that she is born under the sign of the lion and so is Harry, and also aware of the various ways she could use that symbolism. But... on to the blood.

I don't know, but look at what it did to TR. --HH11

There were probably about 20+ generations between Salazar and Tom Riddle. Did the blood corrupt them? Well, we don't know, but you think we might of heard something. I think Voldemort was bent on power and revenge, and the whole Heir of Slytherin was convenient for him. If it corrupted him, it was because he wanted it to. If we could all trace our family trees back a thousand years, I think each of us might find a few famous and unsavory characters to model ourselves on if we so choose.

So far many similarities have been pointed out about Tom/Voldemort and Harry (Muggle parent, orphans, disregard for rules...) It would be nice to see more differences. For example if Harry is related to Godric. --LPO

Actually, Harry will be just the same amount of different from Voldemort being descended from normal wizards as he would be if he were descended from Godric.

I think I need to clarify what I meant by saying that blood isn't important. I don't mean that it isn't important to certain factions in the wizarding world, or that it doesn't play a part in the inheritance of magical powers. I meant that Rowling stresses that it is the choices that people make and how they use their talents that define who they are. If so, than it shouldn't matter whether they are descended from Salazar Slytherin, because nothing forces them to put on their hand-me-down mantle of evil. The same goes for having some good person in the distant family tree. If their descendant knows they are related, they might emulate them out of admiration (like Voldy is doing with Slytherin). But I can't see what difference it would make to Harry at this point in the story.

Edited for clarity.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 24, 2005 6:49 pm (#2180 of 2971)

But I can't see what difference it would make to Harry at this point in the story.

SS seemed to have a job for his heir. There may not be anything for Harry to inherit, but I'm certain that the founders would want their descendents to follow their suit.



Mrs Brisbee - Jun 24, 2005 7:11 pm (#2181 of 2971)

Slytherin did have a job pegged out for his blood descendant, but blood mattered to Salazar Slytherin. Would it matter so much for Godric, Rowena, or Helga though? Wouldn't they want all their students to follow the tenets that they thought important, not just blood descendants? At this point, would a few drops of blood matter, or would thoughts and actions be what matter? Harry already is a Gryffindor, he doesn't need Godric's blood to prove it.

If Harry does turn out to be the Heir of Gryffindor, it will have to lead the plot somewhere.



Solitaire - Jun 24, 2005 9:15 pm (#2182 of 2971)

but blood mattered to Salazar Slytherin

Kinda makes you wonder ... What would Salazar Slytherin say if he knew his last surviving heir was a half-blood? Do you suppose he would overlook it, considering how much Riddle hated Muggles, Muggle-borns, and Half-bloods and how much damage he has done in his lifetime ... and his "re-born lifetime"?

Solitaire



Phelim Mcintyre - Jun 25, 2005 12:11 am (#2183 of 2971)

We are forgetting one thing about Tom Riddle, he was a parselmouth. Harry is one of these, probably due to the back-firing killing curse and the prophecy. Seeing this unique gift in Harry, the hat thought of Slytherin as an appropriate house for young Potter.

The hat saw Slytherin's gift of speaking with snakes in Tom and, despite being a mugblood, put him in the house of his ancestor. We know of no such gift in the Gryffindor line, with the possible exception of the sword.



Mrs Brisbee - Jun 25, 2005 5:21 am (#2184 of 2971)
Edited Jun 25, 2005 6:27 am

Here's Tomoe's summation (from the Sorting Hat thread) of the Sorting Hat's description of Slytherin traits to look for: Slytherins = they are cunning folk who use any means to achieve their ends, power-hungry of great ambition, their ancestory is purest. They are pure-blood wizards of great cunning

Here's what Dumbledore has to say at the end of CoS about why Harry was considered for Slytherin by the Hat: "...You happen to have many qualities Salazar Slytherin prized in his hand-picked students. His own very rare gift, Parseltongue-- resourcefulness-- determination-- a certain disregard for the rules..."

So Parseltongue seems to be one thing the Hat saw that suggested Slytherin to it for both boys. Tom Riddle also exhibited cunning, ambition, hunger for power, and the willingness to use any means to achieve his ends, traits the Hat may have seen also. So I don't think it was only Parseltongue that got him into Slytherin.

What would Salazar Slytherin say if he knew his last surviving heir was a half-blood? --Solitaire

I'm really hoping HBP will give us more detailed information on the founding of the school. Most of the Pure-blood bigotry seems to trace back to Salazar Slytherin and his falling out with the other founders. I'm dying to know what really happened.



Steve Newton - Jun 25, 2005 7:31 am (#2185 of 2971)

I'm doing my reread of the books in preparation for HBP.

At the end of SS Harry has his battle with Quirrell. He passes out and wakes up 3 days later. To me this suggest the TWCBD*.

Dumbledore says that he got to Harry just in time to save him. I wonder. Is it possible that Dumbledore did not get there in time and had to use the Sorcerer's Stone to save, or restore, Harry's life? Could Harry have been killed by Quirrell? The three day recovery time looks suspicious to me.

# Theme Which Cannot Be Discussed.



Choices - Jun 25, 2005 9:42 am (#2186 of 2971)

Interesting observation Steve. More ideas to ponder. :-)



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 25, 2005 11:08 am (#2187 of 2971)

Harry would have bad to still been alive. JKR has said there is no way to bring the dead back. If the stone was used it was to keep him from dying. Voldemort may have tried to possess him like he did Quirrell. That may have damaged him to cause the three day illness. LPO



vball man - Jun 25, 2005 11:12 am (#2188 of 2971)

TWCBD - You're right - and this occurs just after Harry descends into a place guarded by a three headed dog.



Steve Newton - Jun 25, 2005 12:10 pm (#2189 of 2971)

I'd forgotten the Cerberus image.



Steve Newton - Jun 26, 2005 10:09 am (#2190 of 2971)

LPO, you bring up a good topic. Even though JKR waffled a tad on the back from the dead question (I think she said 'properly' dead.) I think that I see at least a suggestion that the Stone was used to save Harry.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 26, 2005 1:30 pm (#2191 of 2971)

Wonder if any exposure to it will prolong his life? I confess I never thought of Dumbledore using the stone on Harry. Could be a clue in there! I don't know if the Stone has healing properties or if long life is enough. LPO



Penny Lane. - Jun 26, 2005 5:31 pm (#2192 of 2971)

I thought the stone was used to make the elixer of life, a potion. Unless Dumbledore was able to whip an Elixer of Life in a few seconds, I don't think the stone was used on Harry to give him everlasting life or anything.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jun 27, 2005 12:53 am (#2193 of 2971)

(DD)...""I feared I might be too late." "You nearly were, I couldn't have kept him off the Stone much longer --" "Not the Stone, boy, you -- the effort involved nearly killed you. For one terrible moment there, I was afraid it had. As for the Stone, it has been destroyed."

I really don't think DD used the Stone to save Harry, otherwise he would not have been so worried, our first real look at how DD deels about Harry. No, I don't think so.

...toddles away....



Steve Newton - Jun 27, 2005 7:20 am (#2194 of 2971)

Penny, I think that the three days that Harry is unconscious would allow time to make the elixir.



frogface - Jun 27, 2005 8:34 am (#2195 of 2971)

Three days is also a long time for someone to be teetering between life and death.



Aqualu Nifey - Jun 2, 2004 12:35 pm (#2196 of 2971)

People have been in comas for longer, though. And I don't think it was even that, Harry was just weak and asleep for real long while.



frogface - Jun 28, 2005 1:42 am (#2197 of 2971)

If that were the case I don't see why he would need the elixir of life, there doesn't seem to be anything to suggest that it was needed.



Mrs Brisbee - Jun 28, 2005 11:14 am (#2198 of 2971)
Edited Jun 28, 2005 12:14 pm

I feared I might be too late.

You nearly were, I couldn't have kept him off the Stone much longer --

Not the Stone, boy, you --the effort involved nearly killed you. For one terrible moment there, I was afraid it had. As for the Stone, it has been destroyed. (PS/SS "The Man With Two Faces")

It sounds to me like Dumbledore's fear for Harry's life only lasted a moment. I think if the elixir was needed to revive Harry in some way that Dumbledore would have mentioned it, and Harry wouldn't have spent three days unconscious.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jun 28, 2005 2:09 pm (#2199 of 2971)

I wonder if this is foreshadowing? Next time Harry will die. He will succeed in vanquishing Voldemort at the cost of his own life. LPO



Mrs Brisbee - Jun 28, 2005 3:33 pm (#2200 of 2971)

The first time I read PS/SS my reaction was "Wow, look at all the death clues! Harry is going to die at the end!"

But Rowling has been painting hints of his death with such broad strokes for so long that now I'm feeling somewhat jaded. Or maybe it's just because Harry is my favorite character. I don't know. But I'm hoping she has some interesting plot twist ready and isn't going with the obvious.

Harry Potter - Page 3 2134391180

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mona
Mona
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Posts 2201 to 2250

Post  Mona Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:11 am



Robert Dierken - Jun 28, 2005 6:14 pm (#2201 of 2971)

Professor Trelawney has also predicted Harry's death quite a few times.



lkb - Jun 28, 2005 6:16 pm (#2202 of 2971)

Yeah, but how reliable is she? She's predicted that every year hasn't she? LKB



Solitaire - Jun 28, 2005 6:39 pm (#2203 of 2971)

I think we will have to worry when she predicts his death in her "SCARY VOICE."



KWeldon - Jun 28, 2005 6:49 pm (#2204 of 2971)

I personally believe that Sybill's prediction that Harry will become Minister of Magic and have twelve children will come true. I just can't see him dying.



Madame Pomfrey - Jun 28, 2005 7:05 pm (#2205 of 2971)

I agree KWeldon.Long live Harry.



Solitaire - Jun 28, 2005 7:09 pm (#2206 of 2971)
Edited Jun 28, 2005 8:09 pm

If he does become Minister of Magic, it won't be for some years down the road--and possibly in a book that Jo has yet to consider writing. She has said on her site that "seventeen is much too young to enter politics."

Solitaire



Aqualu Nifey - Jul 1, 2005 6:38 pm (#2207 of 2971)

As much as I love Harry, and really I do, re-reading the series has made me believe that he will die. Don't have any quotes on hand, just a bunch of little stuff. Like in III, when Trelawny (yes, I know it is foolish to think anything of Trelawny) says the first to rise will be the first to die, and other stuff like that.



T Brightwater - Jul 2, 2005 7:46 am (#2208 of 2971)

Remember, that wasn't actually a prediction, that's a superstition. (Ibsen uses a variation of it in _The Wild Duck_.) I think Jo likes turning superstitions on their heads; for example, that seeing an owl in daylight is unlucky. The Grim turned out to be lucky for Harry, and I suspect that the broken mirror will too. If anything, I'd say that's a hint that Harry and Ron will survive the series!



Solitaire - Jul 2, 2005 11:17 am (#2209 of 2971)

Oh, I like that idea of superstitions working the opposite way, Brightwater!



Finn BV - Jul 2, 2005 11:28 am (#2210 of 2971)

That's very clever, T Brightwater. I've never really thought of the superstitions as anything important! Very smart idea.



Choices - Jul 3, 2005 10:09 am (#2211 of 2971)

.....and we don't actually know who got up first from the table - Harry and Ron sort of rose together, so it could be either. But, I also like the idea of superstitions working the opposite way - long live Harry and Ron!!!



Netherlandic - Jul 3, 2005 10:36 am (#2212 of 2971)

Stupid superstitions. Not an accurate form of magic.



I Am Used Vlad - Jul 3, 2005 7:12 pm (#2213 of 2971)

The Christmas lunch can be viewed as a major clue that either Harry or Ron will die. We know that Harry will at least make it to near the end book 7, so if it is a clue, it means either Ron will go soon, which I find unlikely, or that Dumbledore, McGonagall, Snape, Sprout, Flitwick, Filch, Trelawney and, thankfully, Derek, are safe for a while.

Getting back to Harry, I tend to agree with Aqualu Nifey about there being a lot of clues that Harry will die. There's also Firenze's comment about how he hopes the stars are being misread in SS/PS and JKR using the word "murder" when describing the fulfillment of the prophecy.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 4, 2005 7:14 am (#2214 of 2971)

I know JKR has to write her story. We may not agree with the ending. I think it would be hard for future generations to read the books knowing Harry will die. I hope Harry does not die but I am not convinced that he will survive. LPO



HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 4, 2005 8:51 am (#2215 of 2971)

Superstitions working opposite is a great thought, T Brightwater!

If the superstitions work opposite, then wouldn't the first to sit down be the one to die? I agree with you, Netherlandic - stupid superstitions (say that quickly three times).

I tend to go by Ron and Harry's "off the cuff" predictions, rather than Trelawney's. Hers seem (so far) to be miniscule things, such as one will leave us for good (don't have the exact quote) when Hermoine left, but that could have also been misinterpreted. Seeing the grim in Harry's cup - it was really Snuffles.



essie125 - Jul 7, 2005 2:10 am (#2216 of 2971)
Edited Jul 7, 2005 3:10 am

Harry and his relationship to his parents.

I always found it quite weird that Harry was never curious about what happened with his parents bodies. We know from Barty Crouch jr. that wizards are actually burried.

I feel that the only thing Harry cares about when it comes to his parents is the reason behind their death. He does not show a lot of interest for his parents and the way they lived and what happened to their bodies after they died. Don't get me wrong If I never knew my parents, but I would find out they died under mysterious circumstances, finding out the reason why would be most important to me. However, I would still want to find out everything there was about my parents. Everything Harry and we find out about his parents are things that friends of his parents and Snape have told us. But Harry has hardly ever asked for information.

But where does this reluctance come from?
# Does this reluctance to find out more about his parents stem from aunt Petunia's don't ask questions?
# Did Snape's sneering comments about his father make Harry afraid that there might be a core of truth in what Snape says and this may demage Harry's view of his parents.



Solitaire - Jul 7, 2005 9:52 am (#2217 of 2971)
Edited Jul 7, 2005 10:53 am

I think the first reason is more likely, essie. Old habits die hard ... even Dursley habits. It's probably as well that Harry doesn't get much info from the Dursleys. Pet's hostility toward Lily and James certainly isn't going to allow her to paint an honest portrait--at least not up to this point; however, things could change with more recent events. While Harry did learn some unflattering information about his father from Snape's pensieve, he likes Snape too little to be permanently bothered by anything Snape thinks.

The way Remus talks--and remember that Harry trusts him enormously--Snape was equally hostile to James and hexed him when he got the chance. I think that, as he matures, Harry will come to see that his dad--like everyone else he knows--was a real person with wonderful qualities as well as understandable flaws. No one is perfect, and Harry knows (or should know) that from his own flawed behavior. I believe in Harry, and I think--with time and help from those who knew the Potters best--he will come to a proper understanding of his parents and an appropriate way of regarding and honoring them and their memory.

Solitaire



KWeldon - Jul 7, 2005 9:54 am (#2218 of 2971)

I think Harry doesn't ask about his parents because JKR is not ready to tell us yet!



Solitaire - Jul 7, 2005 9:54 am (#2219 of 2971)

Another good point, KWeldon!



Paulus Maximus - Jul 7, 2005 11:04 am (#2220 of 2971)

Did Snape's sneering comments about his father make Harry afraid that there might be a core of truth in what Snape says and this may demage Harry's view of his parents.

I don't think so. Until Harry saw that scene in the Pensieve, it never crossed his mind that Snape might have been even remotely right about James...



Menopause Molly - Jul 7, 2005 5:08 pm (#2221 of 2971)

I've been thinking we'll find out what happened to James and Lily's bodies in about 8 days. I'm somehow expecting we're finally going to see the cemetery at Hogwarts and that this will be another trial for Harry that will increase his magical powers even more.



MickeyCee3948 - Jul 7, 2005 6:45 pm (#2222 of 2971)

KWeldon - You made me chuckle just 7 days, 2 hours, 6 minutes, aw 5 minutes. Shucks!!!!

Mickey



Ludicrous Patents Office - Jul 7, 2005 7:19 pm (#2223 of 2971)

Harry has learned about death in the last couple years. Before that he has not had much experience. It may not have occurred to him to ask about their graves. Though I have to say I agree with KWeldon. LPO



essie125 - Jul 9, 2005 2:49 am (#2224 of 2971)

KWeldon your right. Still this device, Harry's point of view, being our point of view, has it's downsides. Unfortunately this makes Harry into someone with little interset in others. Even less interest then other teenboys. This is the thing that I find very annoying about Harry. The fact that he shows little to no interests in his parents lifes nor that of the other people around him. For instance the fact that Harry never wondered why Neville lives with his grandmother. All the things Harry found out about Ron, the fact that his parents are poor and that he has lots of siblings, he found out because Ron told him, not because he asked him. Don't get me wrong I know JKR chose Harry to be so uninterested in others for a reason, being that too many questions would have been answered in the first books. I mean if Harry would have had a characters like Hermione's I doubt the series would have been as long as seven books.

This makes Harry into one of my less favourite characters of the series. I'm more a Hermione and Ron fan than a Harry fan.



Madame Pomfrey - Jul 9, 2005 9:25 am (#2225 of 2971)

I think Harry has been brainwashed by Petunia and Vernon not to ask questions.He has found other ways to find out what he wants to know without asking which can get him in a pickle,such as the pensieve.I find that Harry is starting to ask more questions as he gets older.He asks Dumbledore quite a few questions, some which Dumbledore wont answer, and he asked Luna quite a few at the end of OoP.I think he is on his way in finding out about his parents because he is starting to ask more questions.



Herm-own-ninny Weezly - Jul 9, 2005 9:53 am (#2226 of 2971)

Well said, Madame Pomfrey. I too feel that Harry has just been brought up to avoid questions. Not only by the Dursleys, but also by Dumbledore and other adults in the wizarding world. "When you are ready, you will know" and "You're too young; you're not in the Order" have an impact on a kid. It can lead to thoughts that questions are somewhat pointless since no one seems to answer them anyway.

But as Harry is getting older, I think that people will be more willing to answer his questions. And once he starts getting answers, he'll be encouraged to continue asking questions. Which is lucky, since we all seem to have more than enough questions that Harry should be asking!



Solitaire - Jul 9, 2005 11:15 am (#2227 of 2971)

I agree with Madame Pomfrey and Herm. As far as Neville is concerned, it would never have occurred to me to ask about his parents. I'd have assumed, since he lived with his Gran, that his parents were dead ... killed by Voldemort or the DEs. Since Neville never mentioned them, I'd have felt it was rude and prying to ask.

When it comes to asking about Ron and how many siblings he has, well, Ron volunteered that information BEFORE Harry had to ask. Frankly, asking about the Weasleys' financial situation would have been in EXTREMELY BAD TASTE. It is none of Harry's or anyone else's business, unless the Weasleys choose to make it so.

Honestly, I seriously doubt Harry's lack of questions about extremely personal matters that are none of his business anyway indicates a lack of interest. Rather, it indicates the presence of respect and consideration and a lack of rudeness!

Solitaire



T Brightwater - Jul 9, 2005 1:49 pm (#2228 of 2971)

I'm with you, Solitaire. Another possible factor is that Harry has had too many people being nosy about his private life, and he doesn't like it.

I think Harry is interested in other people in a more practical way; he will go out of his way for them, even people he doesn't like (e.g. Hermione in PS/SS and Dudley in OotP) but he isn't the sort of person who wants to know every little detail about someone as soon as he meets them. Asking Luna about why she could see thestrals wasn't something that came naturally to him, but he sensed that it was appropriate at that time.



Aqualu Nifey - Jul 12, 2005 3:46 pm (#2229 of 2971)

I never noticed that Harry didn't ask a lot of questions. He asked everything that I thought he should when I was reading it. I agree with Solitaire in that some of those things are a little too personal to ask.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 14, 2005 9:27 am (#2230 of 2971)

I agree with Solitaire. I also think that Harry does ask questions when he is desperate or thinks he may get answers. He certainly was probing enough when Sirius offered up to fill Harry in on the business of the Order. It wasn't until Mrs. Weasley put a stop to it when Harry saw that the well had gone dry, so to speak.

What he seems to need practice with is asking for help. He has many resources available around himself yet, is reluctant to ask for help. Only in extreme situations (as in the Chamber) does he do so. He really could use some work on this aspect.

Unfortunately this makes Harry into someone with little interest in others.

-Essie, I don't think I can agree with that with respect to Harry. Actions speak far louder than words and he will risk his life to save anyone needing help. He has demonstrated this repeatedly throughout the series. He went down a trap door guarded by a three-headed dog into unknown territory to prevent anyone from allowing Big V to get back in power;went down into a chamber with an unknown monster to save his friend's sister; pursued his uncle's murderer alone, and felt personally responsible for Cedric's death. This does not sound like an unconcerned character to me. Rather, it has all the earmarks of compassion in my book. I am not taking pot shots at you, I am hoping you will see my point rather than writing Harry's character off as the aforementioned.



Griffyn - Jul 30, 2005 5:42 pm (#2231 of 2971)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is now showing Harry's Birthday!

Happy Birthday Harry!!!



Snuffles - Jul 31, 2005 12:01 am (#2232 of 2971)

Happy Birthday Harry! May you have many many more!



wwtMask - Aug 2, 2005 10:03 am (#2233 of 2971)

Having thought about it some more, I wonder why Snape continues to downplay Harry's abilities as a wizard. Obviously, at this point, Harry has more or less learned to ignore it, but I wonder if Snape really believes it or if he's trying to prevent Harry from being arrogant. Either way, we already have plenty of evidence to suggest that Harry, at his core, is actually a powerful wizard. If we compare him to Tom Riddle, we'll see some similarities between them at the same age. We know that Tom's magic was strong and he had been able to control it to some degree at the age of 11. Similarly, Harry also had exhibited fairly strong magic up to that age and a degree of (unconscious) control over it. The magical incidents mentioned in PS as well as Aunt Marge's blowing up indicate strong magic (in fact, considering Ron's amazement at the feat, I'll venture to say that most underage wizards displayed their magical talent in far more mundane ways). His ability to magically open the door to the cupboard under the stairs as well as grow back his hair and apparate onto the school roof (yes, apparate! Harry never mentioned feeling like he flew up there, he said he was suddenly up there!) are examples of his unconscious control over his innate magical ability.

Of course, then there is the patronus and his affinity for DADA. More telling, though, is his ability to do new spells that he has either heard/seen once or that he's only read about. Others can do this as well, of course, but I find it interesting that Harry is able to do so for spells that ought to require practice to do (Cruciatus, the HBP spells, side-along apparation). Harry may stumble on certain things but I think his base magic is actually very powerful.

Now if only he'd learn Occlumency and word-less magic properly!



Finn BV - Aug 2, 2005 4:19 pm (#2234 of 2971)

Now I wish we had voted for the FAQ question of "Will Harry learn Occlumency in HBP?" Harry may be a good DADA student, but all the other essentials (Occlumency, wordless magic, not a complete understanding of Charms) have failed him miserably in times where they could have come in handy! Harry needs to learn to be a good student if he does want to be an Auror and quit all the "saving the world" stuff.

No, seriously, Harry's got to quit all the extracurricular stuff in Book 7 and master his capabilites to match Hermione's so he can win the battle against Voldy.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 2, 2005 6:43 pm (#2235 of 2971)

Harry is an Exceeds Expectations student not an Outstanding student. He is becoming a very powerful wizard. Fred and George were not good students but look at what they can do. I think Snape is judging Harry on academic success and comparing him to James. Harry is not brilliant like James, Sirius, Lily and even Snape. It must give Snape a great deal of pleasure that James' son is not the top of the class. Hermione is in their league, not Harry. His talents lie elsewhere. His extracurricular work is what will help him the most. LPO



Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 2, 2005 8:12 pm (#2236 of 2971)
Edited Aug 2, 2005 9:17 pm

While, I agree that Harry is not in the league of Hermione, Lily, Sirius, Remus, James, or Severus at the moment I believe that his inability to confront Snape was the turning point.

As a result there will be a rapid ascension by harry into their class. Harry I think realized at the end of HBP, how much his lack of attention in Charms, DADA, and Occulmency cost him and the Order this last year.

Although, I do agree that his extracurricular activities will play an equally important role as they have in the past. But, think that Harry will not allow them to dominate him as they have done in the past.

On another unrelated subject now that Harry has inherited 12GP, the motorbike and Witherwings. I am tempted to say that Harry should invite Dudley over for a chat with Mrs. Black and a meeting with Witherwings.



Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 3, 2005 8:51 am (#2237 of 2971)

Is Harry constrained by Voldemort in such a way that he will be forced to fulfill the prophecy, or can the final confrontation still be resolved in such a way that Harry is given the conscious choice between killing Voldemort or showing him mercy?



T Brightwater - Aug 3, 2005 9:05 am (#2238 of 2971)

The development of empathy in Harry has been mentioned several times in the last two books - in OOTP, his empathy for Snape in the Pensieve scene, then later Luna; in HBP, Dumbledore even asks him "Can it be you are feeling sorry for Lord Voldemort?" and then at the end he feels sorry for Draco. I think this is important. I can imagine a Saruman-like end for Voldemort: Harry spares him out of pity, and then he's killed by a despised underling - Wormtail or even Snape.

It's also significant that she doesn't show us any major "good" character who has killed anyone. Mad-Eye may have killed a DE or two in self-defense, but he's the only one. The Ministry seem to prefer turning people over to the Dementors, but Dumbledore doesn't approve of that either, and Harry is "Dumbledore's man, through and through."



Paulus Maximus - Aug 3, 2005 9:21 am (#2239 of 2971)

As long as Voldemort keeps trying to kill Harry, Harry is going to have to fight for his life...

If Harry doesn't kill Voldemort, I'm quite sure that Voldemort will kill Harry...



T Brightwater - Aug 3, 2005 7:10 pm (#2240 of 2971)

Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald, but we don't know that he killed him. Maybe Harry will learn what he did and use it against Voldemort.



Ponine - Aug 4, 2005 2:05 am (#2241 of 2971)

I am fairly certain that Dumbledore has indeed killed someone, and I think that Grindelwald is the most likely candidate. His comment to Draco further leads me to believe that he has indeed killed; 'killing is not as nearly as easy as the innocent believe'.

I do not necessarily think all killing is equally soul-shredding.



Steve Newton - Aug 4, 2005 7:01 am (#2242 of 2971)

The other night my son asked me a question. When Harry dreams about the Ministry of Magic, the corridor and doors, what is he seeing? I realized that I have no real answer. I don't see how it could be Voldemort's memory. I guess that it could be Nagini. Maybe a memory removed from Bode or Podmore or another imperioed MOM worker.

Am I missing something obvious?



S.E. Jones - Aug 4, 2005 7:34 am (#2243 of 2971)

Well, Voldemort was getting information from Rookwood, who used to be an Unspeakable, so he could've been seeing Rookwood's memories, or he could be seeing something created by Voldemort's mind that is based on Rookwood's information.



Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 4, 2005 7:58 am (#2244 of 2971)
Edited Aug 4, 2005 9:01 am

Harry's conduct in HBP was still characterized by the rashness that characterized James as well. The rashness James shed after the incident in the Shrieking Shack. I tend to think that after Dumbledore's death he will shed this rasheness.I also think that Harry has yet to deal fully with his rage and anger over Sirius death.

When I was reading HBP every time Harry did something rash I kept hearing the same quote by Rex Stout. In one of his Nero Wolfe novels. The character of Nero Wolfe makes the following statement This rancor is a pimple on my brain. I can't think, it affects my mental processess.

It could be argued that the intense unyielding hatred and rancor that Harry possesses for the Voldemort, the Death Eaters and anyone connected with them has affected his actions and as result the tactics he employs throughout much of HBP are very Crouch-like in nature even though in his heart he detests Crouch Sr. Harry allows himself to descend to that level. However, after casting the Sectumsempra and seeing the result. The look of aversion and horror on Harry's face as he begins to understand that such a way will lead to disaster and make him no better than his enemies. Yet seemingly Harry regresses backward after Dumbledore's death when he attempts to use Unforgivables on Snape. However, Snape's prevention of this actually prevents Harry regression into a Crouch like mentality. So for all the evil Snape has wrought there remains some good within in him because, Snape did not allow Harry to regress to the Crouch like state of mind he was in prior to casting the Sectumsempra.



S.E. Jones - Aug 4, 2005 8:25 am (#2245 of 2971)
Edited Aug 4, 2005 9:25 am

I was actually quite surpised at how much Harry started to remind me of Dumbledore in HBP. His conversations with the new Minister of Magic, for instance, showed a great deal more tact and patience than I think he's really exhibited in any other book. I do have to agree that he sometimes acted a bit too much like James (hiding in Draco's compartment on the train), but I don't think it was just all about Sirius's death. I think it was that, along with knowing that Voldemort was out there actively hurting Harry's world, along with knowing that the time was coming for him to kill or be killed by Voldemort. I think learning the prophecy actually had more of, or at least equal, an effect on Harry that seeing Sirius die did. Still, I can see what you're saying, Nathan....

P.S. I love Nero Wolfe too.



Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 4, 2005 8:33 am (#2246 of 2971)

S.E., I like your ideas they add a signifigant level of depth to Harry's motivations especially as they relate to Voldemort and the prophecy. Yes, I agree Harry handled Scrimgeour in way that Dumbledore, James, Lily, Sirius, Remus and the other adults in Harry's life great pride.



Steve Newton - Aug 4, 2005 8:43 am (#2247 of 2971)

S.E., thanks for your idea.



S.E. Jones - Aug 4, 2005 8:57 am (#2248 of 2971)

Your welcome, Steve.

Another thing that really struck me about Harry in this book, was the effect that seeing the sectumsempra spell hit Draco had on Harry. For all that Harry has hated (and I use the term very lightly here) Draco in the past, Harry would not want to hurt him, or anyone for that matter, let alone kill them. He is frantic when he sees Draco covered in blood and not moving. This really helps to drive home the fact that Harry's character is driven by compassion.



The Sword and the Lion - Aug 4, 2005 9:36 am (#2249 of 2971)
Edited Aug 4, 2005 10:41 am

What are your thoughts about Harry's scar in the next book? Do you guys believe that L.V will continue to use Occlumency now that Dumbledore is dead, or do you feel that L.V will try and mislead Harry and cause him physical pain via the scar as he did in the OotP?



T Brightwater - Aug 4, 2005 10:22 am (#2250 of 2971)

Since Dumbledore's "few words:" "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" were the first glimpse Harry got of his exuberant and unpretentious character, I'm touched and cheered that he remembered them during a eulogy that was clearly given by someone who didn't know Albus very well.

I also like that Harry remembered Dumbledore saying that he would have truly left Hogwarts only when none there were loyal to him, and he has also probably recalled "Do you think the dead we love ever truly leave us?" Sirius's death left him devastated, angry, and looking for someone to blame; Dumbledore's death has made him more focussed and stronger. Talk about growing up all at once...

Harry Potter - Page 3 2134391180

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mona
Mona
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Posts 2251 to 2300

Post  Mona Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:13 am



The Sword and the Lion - Aug 4, 2005 3:50 pm (#2251 of 2971)

I pictured the man giving the eulogy as one of the "ancient" professors that tested Dumbledore on his O.W.L. exams.



Susurro Notities - Aug 4, 2005 5:57 pm (#2252 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Aug 4, 2005 6:57 pm

There may have been something in the eulogy that Harry should have paid attention to. I assume that Hermione will inform him if that is the case.



Paulus Maximus - Aug 5, 2005 7:07 am (#2253 of 2971)

Let us hope that Harry remembers what Dumbledore said about those asking for help at Hogwarts...



Madam Pince - Aug 6, 2005 9:07 am (#2254 of 2971)

No kidding, Paulus! How many times have I been yelling at my books "Would you please just ask for help, you silly boy!" The few times he's done it, he's gotten it.



Finn BV - Aug 6, 2005 10:22 am (#2255 of 2971)
Edited Aug 6, 2005 11:22 am

Yes, Harry will have to use all his friends and allies to aide him in his journey at the end of Book 7. He is too often acting as an individual, when all his resources are right around him. I think that he will learn this and be able to use the power of friendship to his advantage.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 6, 2005 1:17 pm (#2256 of 2971)

One change in Harry's character I really liked was how he kept telling people things, even if they did not believe him. He went to Arthur about Malfoy, he kept nothing back from Dumbledore. I was very pleased with that. LPO



The Sword and the Lion - Aug 6, 2005 4:31 pm (#2257 of 2971)
Edited Aug 6, 2005 5:33 pm

Harry forgot to tell Dumbledore about Trelany's prediction though. I was glad to see that Harry was more open with Dumbledore too.



S.E. Jones - Aug 6, 2005 6:14 pm (#2258 of 2971)

--Harry forgot to tell Dumbledore about Trelany's prediction though.-- The Sword and the Lion

What prediction? Did I miss it? Or, were you referring to a book other than HBP?...



Finn BV - Aug 6, 2005 6:32 pm (#2259 of 2971)
Edited Aug 6, 2005 7:33 pm

I think The Sword and the Lion is referring to the exchange between Harry and Trelawney in Chap "The Seer Overheard" when Trelawney tells about Snape "picking up some pointers" for the job.



S.E. Jones - Aug 6, 2005 7:20 pm (#2260 of 2971)

Ah... I still don't quite see your point, though, Sword and the Lion.

He told Dumbledore that he knew Snape was the one who overheard the prophecy, which Dumbledore already knew...



vball man - Aug 6, 2005 9:56 pm (#2261 of 2971)

or her reference to the lightning struck tower?



The Sword and the Lion - Aug 7, 2005 3:04 am (#2262 of 2971)

I apologize, I should have clarified --

I was referring to the card that displayed the lightning struck tower.



S.E. Jones - Aug 7, 2005 11:01 am (#2263 of 2971)

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

Yes, that is interesting, though I don't see why Harry would've mentioned it, considering what he thinks of Trewlany's 'normal' divination skills. There were quite a few interesting things she saw with her cards. Too bad Harry doesn't pay attention to divination.



wwtMask - Aug 8, 2005 5:30 am (#2264 of 2971)

I think it's an ongoing joke that Trelawney's showy divination does, in the end, turn out to be on the mark, but only when she second guesses herself, it seems. I'd say that, contrary to what Dumbledore thinks, she does have the power of a Seer, she just can't seem to consciously harness it or interpret her findings correctly. And Harry, having seen enough of her dramatics, can't ever really tell if what she's saying is rubbish or useful.



T Brightwater - Aug 8, 2005 6:08 am (#2265 of 2971)

Does anyone else see a similarity between the scene in the Shrieking Shack and the encounter between Draco and DD in the tower? Harry had his wand out, pointing at Sirius's chest, believing that he was going to kill him (even though he didn't know how) for betraying his parents - but he couldn't do it. And then, incredibly, later in that encounter, he keeps Sirius and Lupin from killing the person who really did betray Lily and James, and he tells Wormtail, "I don't reckon my dad would have wanted them to become killers - just for you." (or something like that)



haymoni - Aug 8, 2005 6:27 am (#2266 of 2971)

I think Harry is going to remember just how difficult it was for Draco - someone who is viewed as being cruel and heartless - to kill.

I don't think it will make him hesitant to kill Voldy - it may make him hesitant to kill Snape.

(Who said "His Voldieness"? - I liked that!)



Solitaire - Aug 8, 2005 10:33 am (#2267 of 2971)
Edited Aug 8, 2005 11:40 am

Nathan: I am tempted to say that Harry should invite Dudley over for a chat with Mrs. Black and a meeting with Witherwings

I am rather far behind the game, having been away ... but Nathan, this idea (post 2236) gave me quite a good giggle!

can the final confrontation still be resolved in such a way that Harry is given the conscious choice between killing Voldemort or showing him mercy

I realize I am in the minority, but I believe that, had there been no Horcruxes, Voldemort would have died the night he tried to kill Harry. I believe the part of his soul residing within him was destroyed. What kept him tied to this earth were the Horcruxes he had created. For this reason, I believe that if Harry finds and destroys the remaining Horcruxes, Voldemort will die. As I say, I am probably the only person who believes this.

If my theory is correct, Harry would be able to vanquish Voldemort without actually murdering him. Destruction of the final Horcrux would leave Voldemort nothing but a soul-less body. Of course, this raises the question ... would he then be something like a Dementor? Or would Harry have to destroy the body at that point?

Solitaire

Edit: I do believe Dumbledore has had to kill before--probably Grindelwald--and that he understands the rending of the soul that occurs, even when one must do such a deed. I believe this is why he wants Harry to understand, find, and destroy the Horcruxes ... because hopes to spare Harry the ordeal of committing a murder, even of one as evil as Voldemort.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 8, 2005 3:41 pm (#2268 of 2971)

Solitaire I really like your idea. I just hope Harry's scar is not the last Horcrux and he has to die to completely destroy Voldemort. LPO



S.E. Jones - Aug 8, 2005 4:42 pm (#2269 of 2971)
Edited Aug 8, 2005 5:45 pm

I don't think the part of soul in Voldemort died that night (in fact, I think that's what 'Mist Voldie' was - 1/7th of his soul flying around without a body), but I do agree that, had the other pieces of his soul not been sealed inside the horcruxes, he would've died that night.... So, you're not really in the minority. As for Harry killing Voldemort, maybe by destroying anything, shall we say, weighing Voldemort's soul down, something simpler than an AK will be able to get rid of the darkest wizard of the age. We know that when Voldie was in Harry, Harry wished to die because of the intense pain. We also know that Voldie felt a similar pain when Harry's heart filled with emotion (love) and it scared him enough that he's kept his mind decidedly closed to Harry since. If Harry doesn't kill, his soul will be whole and undamaged. That, along with a pure heart and Harry's ability to feel love, might be enough to kill the final piece of Voldemort's twisted and fractured soul, if Harry can find a way to force himself and Voldemort together again.... Okay, I admit that this sounds kind of cheesy, but, hopefully, I'm making some sense....



Susurro Notities - Aug 8, 2005 6:53 pm (#2270 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Aug 8, 2005 7:55 pm

"The seventh part of his soul, however maimed, resides inside his regenerated body. That was the part of him that lived a spectral existence for so many years during his exile; without that, he has no self at all." (HBP p. 503, US hardcover)

This statement by Dumbledore to Harry regarding Voldemort would indicates that the part of soul residing in Voldemort did indeed survive his first encounter with Harry Potter.



constant vigilance - Aug 8, 2005 8:15 pm (#2271 of 2971)

Maybe this is far-fetched, or doesn't belong on this thread, but Solitaire's theory has gotten me thinking about the Prophecy again and the "power the Dark Lord knows not." It has more or less been established that this power is love, but I wonder if it is more specific than that. What if this phrase is referring specifically to a mother's love?

I could be wrong about this, but I find it hard to believe that Tom Riddle never, ever, in his childhood or otherwise, was loved by anyone. He was not able or willing to reciprocate, perhaps, but surely at some point there must have been someone who could have felt love for him? I only say this because what we know of Tom is that he drew people in, and allowed them to care for/about him. Such caring, at least in my opinion, is a form of love, and if Tom did have that at some point in his childhood then it would be false to say he was never loved.

However, Tom never got to have the love of his mother, which could arguably be the deepest sort of love. Tom was far more resentful of his mother than his father, and perhaps this resentment was born out of his feeling of abandonment. The love by which Harry is protected is a love that Tom Riddle cannot possibly know, and maybe that is what makes it so uniquely powerful.

::crawling off into my vanishing cabinet::



Solitaire - Aug 8, 2005 9:22 pm (#2272 of 2971)

This statement by Dumbledore to Harry regarding Voldemort would indicates that the part of soul residing in Voldemort did indeed survive his first encounter with Harry Potter

What if this was one of those times when Dumbledore was wrong? Didn't he say that his errors tended to be big ones? I am indulging in wishful thinking, I confess, because I'd love Harry NOT to have to resort to murder to rid the Wizarding World of Voldemort.

Solitaire



Paulus Maximus - Aug 8, 2005 9:39 pm (#2273 of 2971)

I'd love Harry NOT to have to resort to murder to rid the Wizarding World of Voldemort.

As I know I have said before, it's not really murder if he's defending himself or those he loves...

I am quite sure that Harry's soul would not tear (or would heal quickly) even if he did kill Voldemort...



vball man - Aug 8, 2005 9:40 pm (#2274 of 2971)
Edited Aug 8, 2005 10:41 pm

Solitaire, I like the idea very much. I wonder, though, what effect it would have on the plot of book 7.
Lets say that the one RAB found is the last horcrux - the rest have been destroyed. Voldie "dies" when Harry finally goes to 12GP and destroys the locket. Wouldn't that be anti-climactic?

Of course, if Harry was with Voldie when he destoys the last Horcrux, then Harry would witness the ?dementor-transformation. Which would be awesome.

============
Ooooh - I just had an idea. Maybe that's what Wormtail will do with his magic hand! Crush and destroy the last and unbreakable horcrux. Now where should I post that?



S.E. Jones - Aug 8, 2005 10:59 pm (#2275 of 2971)
Edited Aug 8, 2005 11:59 pm

--It has more or less been established that this power is love, but I wonder if it is more specific than that. What if this phrase is referring specifically to a mother's love?-- constant vigilance

I don't think so since it wasn't a mother's love that Harry used to hurt him in OotP, but the love of a child toward a parental figure. I'm guessing that JKR is referring to love in a much more general sense.

Susurro, thanks for the quote. That was just the one I was thinking of....



Yoghurt - Aug 9, 2005 4:18 am (#2276 of 2971)

Solitaire, I know exactly what you mean by this, I don't want Harry to have to kill either, and I posted about this in the "In The End" thread.

I feel like even if it isn't Murder (capital M) to kill someone in self-defence, or in defence of a loved one, or in a war situation, or any of the other situations which can be included as plausible, I feel this is a rather narrow, legalistic view. (Coming from the youngest in a family of lawyers!) I don't think Harry, or indeed anyone who has to take a life especially in war, ever feels much better about their actions because they were "legal".

I'd hate for harry to live with an kind of guilt, and I enjoy the neatness of Voldemort being destroyed by himself, an minion, a non-lethal spell, or something of his own creation, like lightning from a magical storm, or maybe... Dementors?



haymoni - Aug 9, 2005 4:38 am (#2277 of 2971)

I don't think that Harry will feel very guilty about killing Voldy.

He knows that he has to.

Avenging his parents death, Cedric's death, Sirius's death, Dumbledore's death, etc. will just be a bonus.

I really don't think he will regret taking Voldy's life at all.



LooneyLuna - Aug 9, 2005 5:40 am (#2278 of 2971)

Somehow, I just don't think that Harry will directly kill Voldemort. I think Harry will find and destroy all the Horcruxes. Once he does that, anyone will be able to kill Voldemort.

In CoS, Harry drives the Basilisk fang into Riddle's diary, destroying it (and as we know now, a piece of Riddle's soul). When he does it, it's described weirdly. I can't remember the exact wording, Harry plunges the fang into the heart of the book, like he had planned it all along or something like that.

Sometimes, Harry just "knows" things. I believe vanguishing Voldemort will be one of those times where Harry just "knows" what to do, like he planned it all along.

Oy, I seem to be blathering....



Herm oh ninny - Aug 9, 2005 6:28 am (#2279 of 2971)

I actually think that Snape may be the one who actually kills Voldemort, if he doesn't die trying to protect Harry.



Solitaire - Aug 9, 2005 9:14 am (#2280 of 2971)
Edited Aug 9, 2005 10:16 am

I used the wrong word, Yoghurt. I should have said kill instead of murder--I do not wish to have Harry forced into directly killing Voldemort. We have already seen how affected he was by what he did to Draco.

I found it interesting, too, that the Unforgiveable Curses require one to enjoy inflicting pain in order to work, yet Snape's Sectumsempra! seemed to work just fine. As much as he dislikes Draco, I can't believe Harry felt more hatred for him in that moment than he did for either Bella following her murder of Sirius or Snape following the death of Dumbledore ... yet his attempts to stop them were ineffective.

Hm ... perhaps Harry can use Sectumsempra! on Voldemort! He seems to be quite good at it.

Solitaire



wwtMask - Aug 9, 2005 11:09 am (#2281 of 2971)

I've been doing my re-reading and I got to the part where Harry first does Levicorpus. He did it non-verbally with apparent ease and pulled off the counterspell non-verbally as well. I was under the impression that Harry was having trouble with non-verbal spells, especially with the way his duel with Snape went, yet these spells weren't a problem. Were the spells relatively easy to perform? Or is Harry still adversely affected by his emotions, making it more difficult for him to pull off non-verbal spells? Either way, I'm having to adjust my opinion of Harry a bit. I thought he was really powerful at the end of PoA and GoF, but after learning how exceptional his parents had been and after reading HBP the first time, I got the impression that, while powerful, he wasn't quite up to their levels. Now it seems that he really may only be hindered by his emotions.



septentrion - Aug 9, 2005 12:55 pm (#2282 of 2971)

Emotions really have an impact about one's powers, it's clearly stated in HBP but I don't remember the exact quote. I think it was about Tonks. That makes a nice transition with something which has just struck me while rereading Snape victorious : Harry has very negative emotions towards Draco, and above all towards Snape. It' said that "Snape had placed himself for ever and irrevocably beyond the possibility of Harry's forgiveness by his attitude towards Sirius." A little further, it's said that thinking Snape's snide remarks to Sirius had made him rushing off to the ministry "enabled (Harry) to blame Snape". This feelings were only reinforced by Snape's actions in the astronomy tower. For someone whose strength is love, these are powerful negative emotions. I have the feeling Harry will have to somewhat overcome these negative emotions to vainquish Voldemort. I don't mean he'll become best mate with Snape but he'll have to let his "powers that the dark lord knows not" inhabit him fully to success in finishing Voldemort off. JMTK



HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 9, 2005 5:06 pm (#2283 of 2971)

On the alchemy thread they do a great job of explaining that Harry's success of defeating Big V lies in Harry's progression as a human being.

septentrion, your last statement ties in nicely with this.



constant vigilance - Aug 10, 2005 7:35 am (#2284 of 2971)

I am with people in hoping that Harry does not become a murderer. But, I am sort of defining murder in my own terms. To murder is a desire to fatally injure someone. To become a murderer, one murders repeatedly for the pleasure of taking another's life. From what I've seen of Harry, it's unlikely that he would become a Murderer.

I am not afraid of Harry killing, especially in self-defence given that he has already done this a few times. While it was Voldemort in SS, who caused Quirrel to die, Harry did not hesitate to inflict pain on Quirrel to save his own life--self defence. In COS, Harry killed the Basilisk and the horcrux Tom Riddle. Perhaps a beast's life is not respected the same as a humans, but that does not change Harry's ability to mortally wound something. And again, Harry's actions are justified because it was under duress, which the distinguishing feature of killing in self-defence.

I suppose I do not view Harry killing Voldemort as drastically different from the deaths Harry has been a part of. There are differences, I will not deny that. Harry has a more personal motive for attacking Voldemort. Harry has rage towards Voldemort. But the action is still the same. Unless Harry finds pleasure in destroying the Dark Lord, which I hope he won't, Harry will not be a worse person for doing it. He may feel guilty/remorse, that's a good thing for it will show that Harry still has a heart.



HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 10, 2005 7:49 am (#2285 of 2971)

It may not come down to Harry versus Big V. One of his friends lives may be on the line and Harry will have to save him/her by killing Big V. Then the choice is rather easy.



T Brightwater - Aug 10, 2005 10:47 am (#2286 of 2971)

I think we're going to find out what DD thought was worse than death, and that's what's going to happen to Voldemort.



constant vigilance - Aug 10, 2005 11:14 am (#2287 of 2971)

I think we're going to find out what DD thought was worse than death, and that's what's going to happen to Voldemort.

I would love to know the answer to this. I have a few guesses, such as losing someone you love is worse than death. Never loving or being loved is worse than death. Living in fear can be worse than dying because you prevent yourself from fully experiencing life.



Paulus Maximus - Aug 10, 2005 1:16 pm (#2288 of 2971)

I think we're going to find out what DD thought was worse than death, and that's what's going to happen to Voldemort.

I think Harry has known that since book 1. "If you're going to be cursed forever, death's better, isn't it?"

And by pursuing immortality, Voldemort has indeed condemned himself to being "cursed forever"...



Ida-ho-Potato - Aug 10, 2005 1:46 pm (#2289 of 2971)

I did some figures on Voldemort splitting his soul, here they are. I also posted this under Voldemort/Tom Riddle Original split order

Voldemort 100%
1st Split 50%
2nd Split 25%
3rd Split 12.5%
4th Split 6.25%
5th Split 3.125%
6th Split 1.5625%
So would this mean the walking talking Lord Voldy is only carring a 1.5625% of his soul? That would account for his appearance change over the years. I think it would. When you kill all the Horcruxes you kill all those parts of the soul. Wouldn't this make Voldy weaker and weaker with each death of his soul? Can he personally feel these deaths? If he does, will he know what it is he is feeling. We read what he lookied like with out a body, so what would he really start to look like as his soul is being killed off?

Another question. Harry soul is intacked and whole. His soul is also not impure with murdur. So if Harry starts killing these Horcruxes/souls does he start to make his soul rip.

Dumbledore said killing somebody rips your soul or something like that. Either way it did damage and you would never be pure of heart again or pure of soul. I do not remember the exact words.

Please tell me what you think.

Ida



T Brightwater - Aug 10, 2005 1:54 pm (#2290 of 2971)

Ida, that assumes that the soul is split exactly in half each time. However, even if it isn't, Voldemort is walking around with a greatly diminished soul. He may not have enough left to make another Horcrux.

Harry has already destroyed one Horcrux without realizing he was doing it, and his soul remains intact. And if your mathematical analysis is correct, that was the first and largest piece of LV's soul.

In response to an earlier discussion: In Slughorn's memory, it sounds to me as if Tom Riddle already knew a fair amount about Horcruxes; what he wanted to know from Slughorn was the effect of having more than one of them, particularly seven.



Yoghurt - Aug 10, 2005 11:41 pm (#2291 of 2971)

constant vigilance, I think you may have hit on the key to the whole argument over whether or not Harry can be the one to kill Lord Voldemort.

If he takes no joy in doing so, if he can feel sorry for the broken, half-living thing that Tom Riddle has become, if he regrets that it had to end in such a way, then he can be the one to kill/destroy Voldemort. As Dumbledore says "Can it be you are feeling sorry for Lord Voldemort Harry?" and it is this capacity for empathy and emotion which is Harry's great strength.

This can of course, also apply to any thoughts on whether Harry will kill Snape/Bellatrix/Wormtail/Malfoy/etc, we have seen him show pity before, in the Shreiking shack, perhaps he will do so again.

Harry's inability to want to cause pain, to want to kill, are great assets to him, Wormtail is in his debt, perhaps if he tracks down Snape, but doesn't kill him, then one or both of these servants of the Dark Lord will prove his undoing.

I guess I'm remembering the end of Les Miserables, When Valjean has Javert at his mercy, but lets him go despite all he has done to make Valjean's life hell for years. Javert, unable to understand how the criminal he has been hunting for so long can be such a good man, can show such mercy and compassion, that he throws himself into the Seine.

Whoah, sort of of topic and rambling, but I've spent waay to long on Literature this week. You do get it though, right?



Liz Mann - Aug 13, 2005 4:02 pm (#2292 of 2971)

I wonder if Harry's Crucio spell would have worked on Snape if Snape hadn't blocked it.

I want to bring up the subject of whether Harry will live or survive again. I know it's been chewed over so many times, but I'm writing an essay on the matter for my website and I want to come up with as many arguments for and against as possible. By all means keep the current topic going as well.

So what does everyone think and, more importantly, why?



timrew - Aug 13, 2005 4:05 pm (#2293 of 2971)

Since, I think, Book 3, we have had speculation about Harry. First he was an Animagus. Then he was a Metamorphmagus; and now he is a Horcrux.

I expect when he meets Voldemort in the final 'showdown', he won't know which power to use, and will explode trying to use them all at once.

I think Sirius and Dumbledore will then appear (not being dead at all), and Sirius will say to Dumbledore, "Why didn't he destroy the last Horcrux? Didn't he know it was in his scar?"..........THE END.



Liz Mann - Aug 13, 2005 4:45 pm (#2294 of 2971)

Lol, Tim!



constant vigilance - Aug 13, 2005 5:26 pm (#2295 of 2971)

Thank you, Yoghurt. You articulated Harry's strength, which the Dark Lord knows not, and Harry has in abundance, quite well. I feel that Harry's greatest strength is Love but it has a particularly unique quality to it---the ability to have empathy and/or sympathy for one's adversary.

Liz Mann, I think the effort to kill Voldemort will cost Harry his life. My belief has something to do with Harry and Quirrelmort's encounter. I keep thinking about what Dumbledore said about the effort to fight Quirrel nearly killed Harry. At age 11, Harry was willing to sacrifice himself for the safety of the Wizarding World, and it seems to me that he will do it again. There's more to my reasoning than this, so I will return later to add more.



Paulus Maximus - Aug 13, 2005 6:25 pm (#2296 of 2971)

Liz Mann, I think the effort to kill Voldemort will cost Harry his life. My belief has something to do with Harry and Quirrelmort's encounter. I keep thinking about what Dumbledore said about the effort to fight Quirrel nearly killed Harry. At age 11, Harry was willing to sacrifice himself for the safety of the Wizarding World, and it seems to me that he will do it again. There's more to my reasoning than this, so I will return later to add more.

I disagree. Harry had only one year of magical training under his belt when he fought Quirrel, and the fight was, indeed, as taxing to Harry as to Quirrel. However, Harry is going to have had six or seven years of training under his belt when he fights Voldemort to the death, and he will have those skills, as well as the power of love, on his side then.

I am quite sure that Harry will manage to kill Voldemort and survive.



LooneyLuna - Aug 14, 2005 5:21 am (#2297 of 2971)

I go back and forth between Harry living or dying during his final confrontation with Voldemort. Once all the horcruxes are destroyed, anyone will be able to kill Voldemort. I would like a Dementor to swoop in, sucking that last 1/7th out of Voldemort, thereby rendering him worse than dead. I'm sure that won't happen.

I feel Snape will be involved. Harry will be near death as Snape stands over him. Harry will look up at Snape and say, "You loved my mother, and she gave her life for me. Don't you want her killer dead?" or something similar (echos of Harry's Memory Talk with Slughorn). Snape will end up killing Voldemort and saving Harry, finally repaying that life debt he owes James.

or

Harry will sacrifice himself to save Snape. Snape, being in debt to a Potter once again, will explode with rage, killing Voldemort with his bare hands. I just have visions of Snape with his hands around Voldemort's throat, shaking him while screaming, "Thanks to you, I will never be able to repay this debt! I have to live with the guilt for the rest of my life!!!!"

I don't think Harry will use an unforgiveable curse on Voldemort. He'll find another way to defeat Voldemort.



HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 14, 2005 7:35 am (#2298 of 2971)
Edited Aug 14, 2005 8:35 am

LooneyLuna, that is a funny scene! (The second scenario.)

The kicker for me is why JKR is so certain that there will only be 7 Harry Potter books? I keep thinking it is because she will kill off Harry and can't write another if he's dead. It's not how I'd like it to end, I wrote a scenario on the "In The End" thread, but it's just nagging at me.



Liz Mann - Aug 14, 2005 8:27 am (#2299 of 2971)
Edited Aug 14, 2005 9:44 am

She said she wanted there to be seven for two reaons: "Well 7 is for several reasons, but I suppose the main one, I was 7 years at my secondary school. That’s kind of standard in England. 7 is also a magical number. I wanted him to come of age at 17. It just seems a good number for a wizard to come of age. So that meant 7 books, that meant 7 years in his life. Also, it will take 7 books to get Harry to the point where he has to face, um I can’t say. But in Book 7, you know, there’s a big climax coming here and it will take that many books to get him there."

But I don't think she's 100% sure they'll only ever be seven. She's probably about 95%, but not 100%. She has said before that she never rules out the posibility of anything. That's not to say that if she did write an eighth book that it would be about Harry, though.

Edit: Ooh! I was just doing a quote search on this subject, and I think J.K. might, just might have slipped up on the 'Is Harry going to die' thing. I could be completely wrong, but I read this:

And nothing about him (Harry) after school.
JKR: Probably not. I can’t say more than that, but no, I planned 7 and I’m going to stick with 7, I think.

Probably not? The person was asking specifically about Harry after school, and she didn't say her usual 'How do you know he's not going to die?'. She said she probably won't write about him after school. If he was going to die the answer would be a definate no, surely? Or she would have worded her answer to skirt around it.



Sparrowhawk - Aug 14, 2005 10:49 am (#2300 of 2971)
Edited Aug 14, 2005 12:01 pm

Quite frankly, I find it extremely unlikely that Harry will die at the end of book 7. We should bear in mind that JKR is aware of the fact that a vast number of her readers are very young, and would have a hard time accepting Harry's death if she so chose - it would be an almost traumatic experience, judging from the reactions of my 10-years old daughter when I translated the HBP, and more specifically the chapter in which DD got killed - and I don't think that JKR wants that... It looks far more likely that the ending of the story will bring relief and hope.

We should also bear in mind that so far, with the exception of one minor character - Cedric Diggory -, none of the Hogwarts students has died in the course of the first 6 books. I find it very unlikely that JKR will completely change the pattern in book 7 (one exception, maybe?)...

Harry Potter - Page 3 2134391180

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mona
Mona
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Posts 2301 to 2350

Post  Mona Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:15 am



Liz Mann - Aug 14, 2005 12:22 pm (#2301 of 2971)

I think at least one of the students will die, because on the Harry Potter and Me programme that aired a few years ago, she said the last chapter of book seven is where she says what happens to everyone when they leave school (those who survive). Which sounds like she's talking about students.

And she is a very tough writer, who writes the books how she wants them. But she might not want to kill Harry, or she might feel that that would be a bit much. We'll just have to hope so.



Good Evans - Aug 15, 2005 10:43 am (#2302 of 2971)
Edited Aug 15, 2005 11:44 am

not quite this thread... but is this an indication that harry does return to Hogwarts for his seventh year ??

If the last chapter is about those that survive and what happens after they finish school?



Madam Pince - Aug 15, 2005 10:58 am (#2303 of 2971)
Edited Aug 15, 2005 11:59 am

I was searching through interviews today, and found this other quote similar to Liz', which is pertinent to your question, Good Evans, although I think it (frustratingly!) doesn't completely answer it. This might go on the "Future of Hogwarts" thread too, I don't know.

Q: You did. So you didn't write one or two, and then as they became popular, then write the rest.

JKR: No no, not at all. I always planned that we would see Harry from starting at Hogwarts to finishing at Hogwarts, which is... In my world wizards come of age at 17 - age 17. So in book 7 you'll see Harry come of age, which means he's allowed to use magic outside school, and you'll see the end of that school year. So it will be 7 years in his life.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 15, 2005 11:07 am (#2304 of 2971)

Liz JKR seems to be following the classic Hero theme in the series: Harry an orphan, unhappy or difficult childhood, has to pass one or several tests, death of mentor, epic quest/journey to adulthood, completing a great task.... In many of those stories the hero lives. I am thinking of King Arthur. I am not a big fan of the Arthurian legends so I'm not an expert. Other Hero examples are Theseus, Frodo, Moses, recently Eragon. Often their deaths are ambiguous, Arthur being carried off the by three queens on the lake. Frodo sailing away to the undying lands. JKR, like all authors of this genre, has made her own adjustments to the pattern. I think he will live. A very changed person though. LPO



Steve Newton - Aug 15, 2005 11:09 am (#2305 of 2971)
Edited Aug 15, 2005 12:09 pm

He's, obviously, going to suffer, but be happy about it.



Weeny Owl - Aug 15, 2005 12:04 pm (#2306 of 2971)

I found an interesting passage that might be a hint as to Harry's future.

In discussing the Horcruxes and his hand, Dumbledore says, "However, a withered hand does not seem an unreasonable exchange for a seventh of Voldemort's soul. The ring is no longer a Horcrux."

I could see Harry ending up with a permanent injury such as the ones Mad-Eye has. He could end up destroying the last piece of Voldemort's soul, the one in Voldemort himself, and surviving, but with something that would be similar to Dumbledore's hand. I can't see it actually being a withered hand, but something like that, so while Harry wouldn't escape unscathed, he would escape and survive.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 15, 2005 3:10 pm (#2307 of 2971)

Love the avatar Weeny LOL. I think that is great possibility. Harry does not have Dumbledore's knowledge. I hope he can track down and destroy the horcuxes. Only JKR knows what horrors await Harry. I am sure Hermione and Ron will be of great assistance. LPO



Herm oh ninny - Aug 15, 2005 4:48 pm (#2308 of 2971)

I agree Ludicrous. I think that's the reason that Dumbledore told Harry to confide in Ron amd Hermione. He knew that it would take all three of them to track down the rest of the Horcruxes.

Weeny, that avatar is great!



Weeny Owl - Aug 15, 2005 7:15 pm (#2309 of 2971)

I agree that it will take all three of them to get the Horcruxes. JKR did say they're stronger together.

JKR could kill Harry, and she could probably do it in a way that wouldn't necessitate her living in another country under an assumed name for the rest of her life, but I still think that since she entitled the first chapter of the first book "The Boy Who Lived," that she planned all along on him living to a ripe old age.

Draco as a ferret doesn't seem quite as dangerous, does he? Glad you like the avatar.



Solitaire - Aug 16, 2005 9:55 am (#2310 of 2971)
Edited Aug 16, 2005 10:58 am

Interesting point, Weeny, about the ring Horcrux being a seventh of Voldemort's soul. Now, does this mean that each Horcrux holds one seventh--that all 7 are equal? Questions, questions ...

Solitaire



Weeny Owl - Aug 16, 2005 9:45 pm (#2311 of 2971)

I'm not sure it matters if the seven parts are equal. It's the fact that they all have to be destroyed before the last piece of Voldemort's soul - the one in himself - can be destroyed.

I'm curious as to what everyone thinks might happen when Harry returns to 4 Privet Drive.

Will Uncle Vernon threaten Harry, hoping to get his hands on Harry's Gringott's account and number 12, Grimmauld Place? Will Dudley hope to get his hands on something valuable? Will Aunt Petunia ignore the entire matter or try to get something herself?

If Ron and Hermione and maybe even Ginny are there, I can't imagine much of a problem. Ron and Hermione are of legal age in the Wizarding World, so they can do magic without any problems, and while it's possible for Harry to get in trouble for magic in a Muggle house, perhaps Arthur or someone else could let the Ministry know ahead of time that a witch and a wizard who are of age will be there with Harry.

Aside from the entire seventh book and its possible depressing, scary, sad moments, I hope JKR has some fun with this and gives us some laughs. I expect we'll need them.



constant vigilance - Aug 17, 2005 2:15 pm (#2312 of 2971)
Edited Aug 17, 2005 3:16 pm

Will Uncle Vernon threaten Harry, hoping to get his hands on Harry's Gringott's account and number 12, Grimmauld Place? Will Dudley hope to get his hands on something valuable? Will Aunt Petunia ignore the entire matter or try to get something herself? -Weeney Owl

I would hope that the Order-Protection the existed for Harry during the summer between OotP & HBP, still exists. It would be so much fun to see Moody have another go at Vernon's intelligence. I loved that scene at the end of OotP.

With regards to Vernon attempting to get Harry's inheritence, I don't know. We don't know if Vernon is aware of this but Wizard money wouldn't be of use in the muggle world. The answer would pend on what Vernon knows about Wizard money, and the amount to which Vernon could be scared by the fact that every year since GoF strange Wizards have entered his home, causing a terrific mess.



LooneyLuna - Aug 17, 2005 4:53 pm (#2313 of 2971)

Could you imagine Harry taking Vernon, Pet and Dudders to Gringotts? That would be hilarious. "Well, Uncle Vernon, if you want part of my inheritance, you're going to have to come with me to get it!"



Madam Pince - Aug 17, 2005 5:19 pm (#2314 of 2971)

Better yet, can't you just hear Mrs. Black screaming at them if they ***muggles!*** set foot into her sacred house! Ha!



T Brightwater - Aug 17, 2005 7:56 pm (#2315 of 2971)

I think that after a few moments of reflection, they'll be less interested in getting their hands on anything Harry has than on getting him completely out of _their_ lives, which will be satisfying to all parties.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 17, 2005 8:05 pm (#2316 of 2971)

I think the Dursleys will be to scared of magic to try and get Harry's gold and possessions. It would make for some funny scenes though. Good point T, they want to be rid of Harry. I always imagined some kind of show down at the Dursleys between Harry and Voldemort or the Death Eaters. Now I can see Harry spending the night and moving on. I don't know if they will play much of a role. LPO



Weeny Owl - Aug 18, 2005 1:00 am (#2317 of 2971)

JKR did say we would find out what Dudley saw when he was attacked by the dementor, and she said that the sixth book would have Harry's shortest stay, so he might be there until he actually turns 17.



Liz Mann - Aug 18, 2005 8:22 am (#2318 of 2971)
Edited Aug 18, 2005 9:22 am

Yes, she did say we'll find out what Dudley heard when he was attacked, and that Harry would get back at Dudley, that Dudley would really be in trouble when Harry was able to use magic outside school (she said it jokingly, but I think he will do something to his cousin). So the Dursleys must feature. I think she also said there's some things we don't know about Pet.



HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 18, 2005 9:39 am (#2319 of 2971)

I thought the same thing, Weeny Owl. Perhaps a pair of ears to go with that stub (what remains of his tail) for Dudders!

I think Pet will tell Vern that Wizard money isn't of any use in the muggle world. I do think she and DD corresponded that we haven't yet been told about.



Liz Mann - Aug 18, 2005 9:51 am (#2320 of 2971)
Edited Aug 18, 2005 10:51 am

Hungarian Horntail, we must have part of the same brain. I was thinking about Harry perhaps giving Dudley pig's ears, a while ago, too!



Solitaire - Aug 20, 2005 12:51 pm (#2321 of 2971)
Edited Aug 20, 2005 1:51 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if--having learned that Harry is not the penniless, friendless orphan they'd always assumed him to be--the Dursleys ask for back child support. Or perhaps they will chuck him out, figuring he can pay for himself now. Just a thought ...

Solitaire



haymoni - Aug 20, 2005 3:57 pm (#2322 of 2971)

So, Harry - Just where is this house that you have inherited? Do they have a hosepipe ban there?

I don't know that Vernon was asking about #12 in a greedy way - i.e. so he could get his hands on it. It seemed more like he was happy that Harry would have some place to go.



Adam Elliott - Aug 20, 2005 4:43 pm (#2323 of 2971)

I feel that Harry's feelings toward Dumbledore will make him stay at Privet drive the full time to his 17th birthday. Also, since DD was the secret keeper at #12, he'll also need time to allow some security to be put into place so that everyone won't be able to drop by. Anyway, he'll need the time at Privet drive to formulate his plan for gathering the horcruxes and wether or not he'll return to Hogwarts. I think Harry coming into adulthood will bring to a head much of his troubles with the Dursleys. His aunt, I feel, will finally come clean to Harry about her relationship with DD and Harry's Mom. Harry has much to do by his 17th birthday, mostly while at Privet drive.



haymoni - Aug 20, 2005 4:55 pm (#2324 of 2971)

I actually could see Hermione pumping Petunia for answers to our questions. Sometimes Harry just doesn't think! He was told, "Don't ask questions!" for far too long.



Weeny Owl - Aug 20, 2005 7:45 pm (#2325 of 2971)

You just made me actually laugh out loud, haymoni!

I can so picture Hermione interrogating Petunia. That would be so incredibly funny. Petunia wouldn't know what hit her.

I could also see Hermione getting into it with Vernon if Vernon, for instance, said he was charging Harry rent for the years he lived there. Hermione would go into research mode and consult a solicitor perhaps, and then present Vernon with a huge volume of laws regarding Harry's legal rights. She might even suggest Harry sue Vernon for back pay since he did most of the work there. If JKR has the room for something like that, I would love to read it.



Solitaire - Aug 21, 2005 6:26 pm (#2326 of 2971)

Well, Hermione is one of the few wizards we know who is equally at home in the Muggle world. She would be able to give as good as she gets in the Dursley house. I agree ... she needs to visit Harry at 4PD. In addition to showing the Dursleys that Wizards can be both magical and intelligent, she might be able to direct Harry with regard to a bit of "off-handed" interrogation of the Dursleys. Even better, since she will be "legal" before Harry, she might be able to put a spell on Pet to make her give the information they need. Just a thought ...

Solitaire



Honour - Aug 21, 2005 8:30 pm (#2327 of 2971)

in all of the books harry might go with cho then ginny witch sucked. I think that Harry should go with Hermione



Esther Rose - Aug 23, 2005 5:41 am (#2328 of 2971)

I wonder why Harry doesn't ask his own reflection questions.



greta - Aug 27, 2005 7:43 am (#2329 of 2971)

I think it is hard to judge the extent of Harry' magical ability as in each book he has suffered far more trials and tribulations than any other student(DD even says in OOTP that he has struggled under more burdens that any other student). I think his OWL results were fairly impressve if you consider the awful year he experiened in OOTP.

However his abilities are certainly more practical than academic, he managed to apparate himself and DD from the cave back to Hogsmead when all he had done previously was travel to a hoop - when Harry needs to do something he does it. Also he has a variety of other skills. He knew Draco was up to something, this suspicion was not fuelled by his dislike for draco but by his analysis of his behaviour - not playing Quidditch or abusing his status as a Prefect, not strutting around the castle. Harry knew this was so out of character that there was something else going on. Also Harry seems to struggle academically when Snape is around, five years in Potions he was dreadful but still achieved an "E" in the exam because Snape was not around to bully and provoke him. This may aslo be the reason he has struggled with non verbal spells, as these were first introduced in Snapes class and we don't know how Harry's progression with this technique compares to the other students (apart from Hermione).

Also Harry has no parental figure who he feels he has to work hard for or live up to anyone elses expectations. We have no idea what Harry's academic performance would have been if he had a parent to support him and a lack of murderes and evil dark lords hunting him each year!!

I think JKR is trying to create an average student, Harry's abilities as many of you have pointed out of love, friendship, loyalty, bravery and empathy for others are qualities that anyone can apsire to, whereas being a know-it-all or inherently super talented wizard are qulities that you are either born with(so you have no choice in the matter)or just may not have the academic capacity to attain such knowledge as for example hermione does.



Solitaire - Aug 27, 2005 9:49 am (#2330 of 2971)

I wonder why Harry doesn't ask his own reflection questions.

At some point, Esther Rose, I suspect Harry will attempt to place the few shards of memories he has of GH in the Pensieve in order to look for clues to that night. Like others, I believe he has not yet learned how to remove them from his head. Former DADA teacher Remus may be able to help him there, since a Pensieve would seem to be an important tool in defending oneself against the Dark Arts ... don't you think?

Solitaire



Liz Mann - Aug 28, 2005 4:59 am (#2331 of 2971)

I should think Slughorn would be able to show him, since we know Slughorn can do it (he did in Hagrid's hut with the Horcrux memory).



Solitaire - Aug 28, 2005 9:07 am (#2332 of 2971)

Good point, Liz. If Slughorn stays at Hogwarts the next year, he may well become Harry's mentor.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Aug 28, 2005 6:34 pm (#2333 of 2971)
Edited Aug 28, 2005 7:37 pm

his abilities are certainly more practical than academic Greta

I agree Greta. Harry has learned a great deal. There is no replacing practical experience. LPO



HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 28, 2005 6:43 pm (#2334 of 2971)

When I read your Post #2330 Solitaire, I immediately thought of the interview where JKR talks about the pensieve and how it gives a factual recount, rather than a biased one. I think this may be important in such a situation as the one you pointed out. Harry may see GH just as the events transpired.



Solitaire - Aug 28, 2005 6:51 pm (#2335 of 2971)

HH, I have not been able to get that idea out of my mind for that reason. It is certainly safer to view those events in a Pensieve than to go to GH via a Time Turner ... don't you think? I believe that Harry will learn how to remove his own memories for examination in Book 7. And hopefully, he will learn how to get OUT of a Pensieve, as well!

Solitaire



HungarianHorntail11 - Aug 28, 2005 7:29 pm (#2336 of 2971)

Yes it most certainly is safer, Solitaire. But when has Harry taken the easy way out? *cringe*

According to the MoM, they've destroyed all of the time turners, although they also thought they had all of the Animagi registered as well, didn't they?

What if the other person at GH that night was Harry? Help, I'm getting the creeps!



Liz Mann - Aug 29, 2005 12:30 pm (#2337 of 2971)
Edited Aug 29, 2005 1:31 pm

Where on earth did the idea that there was someone else at Godric's Hollow that night come from? People seem to be absolutely positive about it like it's a known fact.



Madam Pince - Aug 29, 2005 12:33 pm (#2338 of 2971)
Edited Aug 29, 2005 1:35 pm

In the Melissa/Emerson interview, JKR "refused to answer" the question about somebody else being there. Silence gives assent...

There's been lots of theories about there being someone else there. The thread "Was It Snape At Godric's Hollow That Night?" lists a bunch of ideas. Personally, I got my idea from watching the "canon" scene in the first movie -- supposedly JKR wrote it and the scene where Hagrid recounts Godric's Hollow implied to me that there was somebody else there. Of course, JKR did not definitively answer the question from the interview, so it's all pure speculation...



T Brightwater - Sep 2, 2005 8:37 pm (#2339 of 2971)

It occurs to me that one of the other things at 12GP which Harry might find useful is that book on Wizard genealogy. If Jo hints that speculating about DD's family might be fruitful, perhaps Harry will find something out from that source.



Solitaire - Sep 5, 2005 10:18 am (#2340 of 2971)

Yeah, Liz ... I've wondered that, as well.



MoonRider - Sep 6, 2005 3:54 pm (#2341 of 2971)

Hi Guys!!

I haven't read this thread for quite some time-----so, please forgive me that I'm not responding to anything anyone has said-----also, if I've put this in the wrong place.....

I don't understand how the theory that Harry is a Horcrux "works". I'm all mixed-up, I theenk! Even if he was "an accident" (horcrux). Wouldn't that mean, then, that there might be EIGHT? Also, if nobody but Voldy can kill Harry (I guess that's what the Prophecy means) how is Harry going to kill himself (to get rid of all the horcruxes in order to kill Voldy), and kill Voldy, TOO?

I hope y'all can figure-out what I'm asking-----I don't know if I worded it so well.

Thanks!



Liz Mann - Sep 6, 2005 4:13 pm (#2342 of 2971)

My thoughts exactly, Moonrider. I suppose once the Horcruxes are gone then anyone can kill Voldie but the prophecy said that Harry would. Unless he blows them both up at the same time or something. But I don't see how a Horcrux can be created by accident. It must require a concious spell, surely?



Paulus Maximus - Sep 6, 2005 4:38 pm (#2343 of 2971)
Edited Sep 6, 2005 5:39 pm

I suppose once the Horcruxes are gone then anyone can kill Voldie but the prophecy said that Harry would.

But, as Dumbledore said, prophecies mean nothing if nobody concerned pays any heed to them. If Voldemort and Harry both decided to stop trying to kill each other, they could both live...

But Voldemort will stop at nothing to kill Harry, and Harry isn't going to lay his neck on the chopping block for Voldemort... Of course Voldemort will be able to be killed by anyone once his last Horcrux is destroyed, but who would try harder than Harry to bring that about?

More importantly, who other than Harry would know (1) the reasons why Voldemort didn't die, and (2) that all six of those reasons have been destroyed?



RoseMorninStar - Sep 6, 2005 5:35 pm (#2344 of 2971)

Moon Rider, this is the way I think it could possibly work. Please keep in mind that we don't exactly know how horcruxes are created so I am going to make a couple of guesses/possible assumptions. This could be one way it might work.

Let's say to make a horcrux the murder has to be premeditated (intentional). We don't know if the 'spell' (or whatever it takes) to make a horcrux has to be done before the murder after the murder, or if it can be either way. Let's say Voldemort had his horcrux object the night he planned to kill Harry. Let's say he had already said his spell (or whatever) in anticipation of Harry's death. But that night, because of Lily's sacrifice, Harry did not die as he was supposed to. In fact, the Avada Kedvara curse rebounded...hitting Voldemort. It should have killed him, but did not because he already had some horcruxes previously made. The AK curse should kill without leaving any mark. But it left a mark on Harry. Why? When the rebounded AK curse hit Voldemort, did it 'use up' one of his previously made horcruxes? Is that what reduced him to 'less than the meanest ghost'? What if Voldemort had the horcrux spell/curse already set up-his soul had already split due to the murder of James...but then this soul bit that was torn away had nowhere to go because things did not go as planned. What would happen to the soul bit? What if Voldemort had begun creating the horcrux but because everything went so wrong & Harry did not die-(plus Voldemort was in no condition to finish the process) the soul bit embedded itself where Voldemort did not intend it to go.

I don't think Voldemort suspects this...at least he did not until perhaps recently. He either thinks the horcrux did not take (and perhaps created another one) or he may think that it worked and that there is a horcrux out there that is not really a horcrux.

Is this making any sense?

I guess, this is the way I think it might work out in the end: I think Harry will defeat Voldemort but that JKR will not have Harry kill him outright. How will this work? Voldemort will once again attempt to kill Harry using the AK curse. Voldemort will think he has several horcruxes safely tucked away. Harry will not be sure if he has destroyed all of the horcruxes or not when the final showdown takes place. When the AK curse hits Harry, it will once again rebound (due to Dumbledore's sacrifice-that's what the 'gleam in his eye' was all about at the end of GoF) Voldemort will think he has overcome the protection that Lily gave Harry because of his use of Harry's blood in his rebirthing ceremony-and he will have overcome the protection Lily gave him, but he u will not know about the protection that Dumbledore has given him-(as the prophecy says, 'a power the dark lord knows not') When the rebounded AK curse hits Voldemort, it will destroy the last (unknown to him) bit of soul (the last horcrux), which is Harry's scar...and Voldemort will die. I think Harry's scar will disappear.

But that is just my theory. Very Happy



Ludicrous Patents Office - Sep 6, 2005 7:03 pm (#2345 of 2971)
Edited Sep 6, 2005 8:03 pm

RoseMorninStar I like your theory. It fits with Dumbledore refusing to do something about Harry's scar when he was a baby. In OoP when Harry saw Arthur get attacked by the snake DD did some consulting with his instruments. He asks "..in essence divided?" (OoP USA Hardbound p.470) The snake split in two. Which could mean, if Harry is a Horcrux, Voldemort's soul is separate from Harry. I hope Harry does not have to die to vanquish Voldemort. LPO



Ana Cis - Sep 6, 2005 7:11 pm (#2346 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Sep 6, 2005 8:12 pm

With all due respect...Nah!

This maybe as wild a theory as you ever heard. However, this is how I predict Harry will destroy Voldemort. Voldemort provided the capability for Harry to get into Voldemort's mind and emotions. Consequently, Harry will project all the love he can possibly conceive of...his parents, Sirius, Dumbledore, Ginny, the Weasleys, Ron, Hermione, Neville, Luna and Hagrid toward LV. That love will be so powerful that LV can't handle it and dies because there are no more Horcruxes to protect his decimated soul. Crazy huh?



RoseMorninStar - Sep 6, 2005 7:43 pm (#2347 of 2971)
Edited Sep 6, 2005 8:44 pm

Ana Cis...sounds LOVE-ly but I still stand by my theory...at least for now. I DO think that love will somehow play a roll... JKR was evasive when asked if they will return to the Department of Mysteries..and about the curtain. I also have a sneaking suspicion that perhaps Lily was an unspeakable (if not also James) and worked on what was contained in that most secret of rooms...the one that contains love.



Ana Cis - Sep 6, 2005 7:57 pm (#2348 of 2971)

LOL, I come up w/some really crazy ones sometimes... but, you know, I was thinking something similar about Lily being an unspeakable, and that being the reason LV didn't want to kill her. James, I suspect was an Auror so LV had no hesitation about killing him.



MoonRider - Sep 7, 2005 9:01 am (#2349 of 2971)
Edited Sep 7, 2005 10:06 am

Welp-----the only part that I understand, really, is the part that Liz said about "if Harry's dead, then anyone can kill Voldemort"-----or something like that. So I'm assuming that, in the end, Voldy will kill Harry (if this "Harry is a Horcrux" theory is correct), and then, Ron, say, will retaliate and kill LV.

RoseMorninStar: I'm not really sure that I get your theory because when Voldy turned to kill Harry, he had already killed James AND Lily-----so wouldn't there be TWO bits of soul "flying" around??? I mean, I understand that we don't know how these Horcruxes are made, but.....

let's just say he had a "container" with him, as he knew he was going to kill Harry.....

did he seriously think he would not meet with opposition from James and Lily??? So then, if he only had ONE "container", when he killed James (the FIRST of the 3) wouldn't his container have gotten "filled-up", or whatever??? ...or, maybe, the container only gets filled-up with the fragment of soul that Voldy chooses to fill it up with. I think DD said something about Harry's death would be a time that Voldy would consider worthy of making a Horcrux.

Also, if the "Harry is a Horcrux" theory is correct maybe that's "the voice" that Steve (I think it was) was talking about on another thread-----the voice is a fragment of Voldy's soul??



Steve Newton - Sep 7, 2005 9:31 am (#2350 of 2971)

If Harry dies and someone else eliminates Voldemort I think that it would almost certainly be Neville.

Harry Potter - Page 3 2134391180

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mona
Mona
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Posts 2351 to 2400

Post  Mona Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:03 am



Soul Mate for Sirius - Sep 7, 2005 10:19 am (#2351 of 2971)

Oh I hope it's Neville!!!

-Jenn



Paulus Maximus - Sep 7, 2005 10:48 am (#2352 of 2971)
Edited Sep 7, 2005 11:48 am

But Harry has been marked as "The one with the power to defeat the Dark Lord".

Ergo, nobody else has the power to defeat the Dark Lord. If he dies, Lord Voldemort will live forever.



Steve Newton - Sep 7, 2005 11:10 am (#2353 of 2971)
Edited Sep 7, 2005 12:21 pm

Defeat does not mean kill. Also, prophecies are pretty slippery things. You only understand them after they are through and its amazing how many things fit later.

Onto a different note.

Harry is now heir to the Black's. Will this affect the way that Phineas treats him?



MoonRider - Sep 7, 2005 11:42 am (#2354 of 2971)
Edited Sep 7, 2005 12:43 pm

Steve Newton: "If Harry dies and someone else eliminates Voldemort I think that it would almost certainly be Neville."

Oh Steve, you're SOOO right!! (It's so nice to "see" you again, BTW!) That is most certainly how it would have to be-----if Harry dies, obviously!

Paulus Maximus: Just a little correction-----I'm sure you already know this, but.....

The line is: "THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD APPROACHES....." (I used CAPS because the book [OotP -Chapter 37 - "The Lost Prophecy"] used caps!); and anyway, I believe that part of the Prophecy was already been fulfilled when Voldy was reduced to ".....less than spirit....", because somewhere else in whatever book someone else (I'm thinking it was Hagrid, for some reason) used the term "vanquish" for when Voldy disappeared, that night, from Godric's Hollow. The only part of the Prophecy, I feel that hasn't been fulfilled is the part about "AND EITHER MUST DIE AT THE HAND OF THE OTHER.....".

Steve: "Harry is now heir to the Black's. Will this affect the way that Phineas treats him?"

I'm thinking: "No!"-----just like it hasn't changed Kreacher!



Esther Rose - Sep 7, 2005 11:47 am (#2355 of 2971)

Steve, my guess would be no, however the more interesting reunion would be Harry and Sirius' mother.



Liz Mann - Sep 7, 2005 12:30 pm (#2356 of 2971)

Surely Voldemort would have worked out by now if Harry or his scar is a Horcrux. In which case he would not be so keen to kill him. I know people have used Snape's telling the Death Eaters not to harm him as evidence that Voldie doesn't, but I don't believe that. I think Voldemort is just so angry with Harry by now that he wants to do it himself.

The prophecy says either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives. Which means ONE of them must kill the other. When it says live, though, I think it may mean it metaphorically rather than literally. In other words, Voldemort can't get on with his life while Harry's around to thwart him and Harry can't get on with his life while Voldemort's trying to kill him.



Jeremy Tuttle - Sep 7, 2005 7:03 pm (#2357 of 2971)

Liz, I've never been comfortable with that ambiguous line in the prophecy; your explanation is the best I've seen. "Both will be frustrated until one kills the other"; I like it. Thanks!



RoseMorninStar - Sep 7, 2005 10:56 pm (#2358 of 2971)
Edited Sep 8, 2005 12:01 am

MoonRider, Yes, in my guess of how things might play out Voldemort intended to make a horcrux with Harry's death. Not the death of James or Lily. They were 'incidental' deaths to Voldemort. But, let's say, Voldemort said his spell, or whatever it takes to make a horcrux, and had the intention of encasing the bit of torn soul at the same time as he kills Harry. He says the curse...but Harry doesn't die. In essence, Voldemort 'dies' from the rebounded curse, but not quite, because of other horcruxes. So instead of the part of his soul that he was planning on encasing in a horcrux (which didn't work out) maybe the last splitting of his soul (Lily's death?) created an unintentional horcrux, or perhaps it went encased in an unintentional place because Voldemort did not complete the task. Maybe it worked another way. I still think that Harry will 'vanquish' Voldemort once and for all...and that he will not kill him directly. I think something unexpected will happen, just as something unexpected happened the night Voldemort originally tried to kill Harry.

None of us know exactly how it will work. Only JKR can answer that for us. There are clues. One being that Harry can feel Voldemort's emotions...not read his mind but feel his emotions...something that is usually associated with heart & 'soul' (and I doubt Voldemort has any 'heart'). Another clue is when Dumbledore is checking one of the elaborate silver instruments in his office and a green smoke comes out and forms a snake..and divides into two snakes. Dumbledore says.."But in essense divided?" OotP 22

I think Dumbledore suspects something like this but may not want to tell Harry-think of how frightening that bit of information would be. At the end of OotP Dumbledore, in his face-off with Voldemort in the Ministry of Magic, uses a spell against Voldemort and Voldemort says, 'You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore?'OotP 36 I think that may be because he is not sure what killing Voldemort might do to Harry. As to whether Voldemort has a clue, I am not sure. I think (as with all mental psychopaths) Voldemorts own arrogance, impatience, underestimation of his opponent and ignorance into the ideas/motivations of others will be his own undoing.

One other interesting note, the night he killed James & Lilly (and intended to kill Harry) he was probably intending to make a horcrux that represented Gryffindor house (if Dumbldores hunch is correct). We don't know what item he intended to use as a horcrux, but it is interesting that they were in GODRIC'S HOLLOW which JKR says is important. JKR also says the shape of Harry's scar is not the most important thing about his scar.



Esther Rose - Sep 8, 2005 6:02 am (#2359 of 2971)
Edited Sep 8, 2005 7:17 am

I was just thinking about this last night. Let me just say now that I would prefer that Harry not be a Horcrux. But I keep an open mind.

Things we know as fact. When someone commits a murder, their soul splits. All magic leaves it's own trace. No one has survived an AK curse except for Harry. It is possible to encase part of a soul in an object once the soul splits.

What we don't know.

What happens to the torn piece of soul after a murder has been committed? A good guess could be that once a murder is committed the soul splinter goes into the person being murdered. Since the person murdered is dead, nothing happens to that part of the soul (it either dies with the murdered person or rejoins the living soul of the murderer) unless the murderer extracts the soul particle back from the person they murdered and encase it into an object.

Is the price of an AK a piece of soul whether the intended recipient of the curse dies or not? (Is a splinter of soul always the trace magic that an AK curse leaves?) My guess is yes. The fact that you have to really mean to kill someone to do AK properly may mean that the cost of an AK is a piece of the soul. The souls resistance of being split may be why an AK curse is so difficult to perform.

What happens to the piece of soul if the intended recipient of the curse does not die? My guess is that because the recipient of the curse is still alive there is no reason for the piece of splintered soul to leave the new home of a live body. (Harry) Especially, if the soul origin no longer has a body and the original soul cannot extract the splintered soul from the live body.

Can you extract the soul splinter from a live body without destroying the live body? (If Harry is a Horcrux, can he extract part of Voldemort's soul without having it cost his own life?) And if so, what would it take to extract it? My hope is that it can and that Hermione, Ron, and Harry will find a way to get the Voldycrux out of Harry. That is if Harry is a Horcrux.

ETA: I think that either Harry, Voldy's Wand, or both are a Horcrux since the soul piece had only one of two places to go. I also wonder what would have happend if someone had picked up Voldy's wand when Voldy was Vapormort. I also wonder what would happen if someone were to snap Voldy's wand in half. Bet you it would be a pleasant sight for Hagrid's Eyes to witness.



RoseMorninStar - Sep 8, 2005 12:07 pm (#2360 of 2971)
Edited Sep 8, 2005 1:12 pm

Esther Rose, I think that when a murder is commited the murderers soul is 'torn in two'... I would imagine that normally the soul (both parts) are left inside of the murder's body. That way there is a chance for healing and redemption. The reason the making of a horcrux is such a horrific and evil act is that since part of the torn soul is removed from the body and encased elsewhere, there is no chance for healing, atonement and redemption.

I would like to make one thing clear. I DO NOT think Harry is a horcrux. I think his scar may be a horcrux. I think that is an important distinction. Because if it is Harry's scar...he is not being possessed, as I think Ginny makes clear to Harry in OotP when she asks him if he has large amounts of time that is unaccounted for. I think that also leaves the possibility that the scar can be destroyed without killing Harry...much in the way the horcrux within the diary was destroyed without totally destroying the physical diary of Tom Riddle.

Upon re-reading OotP one other thing occured to me. When Harry is able to see through the eyes of the snake (Nagini I presume) and Dumbledore sees a smokey green snake emit from a silver instrument in his office and divide (and he says, 'in essence divided?') I wonder if perhaps the horcrux Voldemort was trying to create at the time he tried to kill Harry wasn't the snake and it somehow divided the intended soul bits into two parts..one going into the snake, the other into Harry. Then, when Voldemort tries to control the Snake via his Parseltounge abilities, Harry can also pick up on those commands/thoughts/emotions. Maybe even because Voldemort had just commited two murders.



Paulus Maximus - Sep 8, 2005 12:31 pm (#2361 of 2971)

I think that also leaves the possibility that the scar can be destroyed without killing Harry...much in the way the horcrux within the diary was destroyed without totally destroying the physical diary of Tom Riddle.

True, but how much of the scar would have to be destroyed?

Or, more importantly, how much of the scar CAN be destroyed? None of it, according to Dumbledore in book 1.



Soul Search - Sep 9, 2005 7:40 am (#2362 of 2971)

The overwhelming evidence of a connection between Voldemort and Harry's scar can't be explained anyway except a Horcrux.

On the other hand, Dumbledore has known about Voldemort's Horcruxes since Harry destroyed the diary in CoS, yet he did not suggest any possibility of Harry's scar being a Horcrux.

Bit of a conflict.

I am not worried about Harry's safety if his scar is a horcrux. A horcrux object doesn't, necessarily, have to be destroyed; only the soul needs to be "freed."

The ring was damaged because Dumbledore had to defeat its protective magic before he could "free" the entrapped soul.

The diary was damaged because Harry used a convenient weapon, the basilisk fang. Harry caused the damage, rather than the freeing of the soul, itself.



Ydnam96 - Sep 9, 2005 7:46 am (#2363 of 2971)

While I do believe that Harry's scar could be a Horcrux (not an intentional one mind you, but one that happened on accident) I do think that there could be other reasons the scar exists. After all, no one else has ever survived an AK, so we really have no precidence to say that the scar is what always happens when you survive an AK...



Esther Rose - Sep 9, 2005 8:36 am (#2364 of 2971)

Soul Search: Dumbledore didn't think that Harry's scar was a Horcrux or Dumbledore didn't want Harry to know that his scar is or might be a Horcrux yet?

In HBP I got the strong impression that Dumbledore simply did not want to tell Harry what the last Horcrux item might be.

I can only think of three ways to destroy the Horcrux if it is Harry or Harry's Scar.

1) A Dementor's Kiss to Harry. Hoping that The dementor only removes the soul partical. (Which might be why the Dementor's

2) Harry is killed.

3) Mirror of Erised.

Here is to hoping that #3 works.



Paulus Maximus - Sep 9, 2005 11:38 am (#2365 of 2971)

Harry most certainly does not belong to Godric or Rowena, so I can't see Dumbledore hinting that the unidentified Horcrux might be something that once belonged to them if it was Harry.

Besides, if Dumbledore couldn't remove any part of Harry's scar, who could?



Liz Mann - Sep 9, 2005 11:50 am (#2366 of 2971)
Edited Sep 9, 2005 12:50 pm

If Dumbledore had known that Harry's scar was a Horcrux, and the soul could be released without harming him, Dumbledore would have done it already. Why go chasing after lockets before getting rid of the Horcrux that's right in front of you?

I too can't see Dumbledore saying that the final Horcrux could be something of Gryffindor's or Ravenclaw's when he knows that it's really Harry or his scar, even if he didn't want Harry to know yet.



Soul Search - Sep 9, 2005 3:21 pm (#2367 of 2971)

Voldemort doesn't seem to know much about Harry's scar and the connection between them. It took him most of OotP to figure it out.

It is also unlikely Voldemort suspects Harry's scar, and their connection, may be because his attempt to make a horcrux with Harry's death. After all, Voldemort has tried to AK Harry on a couple of occasions since.

Harry's scar horcrux is outside those Voldemort planned and Dumbledore deduced. Harry still has one to identify, two to find, and four to release the soul from.

My vision is that, at a last moment, Voldemort will realize that all his horcruxes are gone, that Harry's scar is the last, and that he, himself, has freed the soul from it.



Professor V - Sep 9, 2005 10:30 pm (#2368 of 2971)

I haven't had the opportunity to post for a while, so I will apologize in advance for the length of the post.

Liz Man - in August you asked if we thought Harry would live or not. I guess my answer to that is - it depends on what day you ask me. I have 3 basic theories:

1) Harry dies to ensure Voldemort's defeat. For the longest time this was my back up theory and not one that I was happy or comfortable with. To be honest I didn't even think it was credible until the horcruxes were revealed. To me it seems plausible that either Harry or his scar will be the last horcrux (Voldemort definitely doesn't know about it), Harry will realize this and do what is necessary to ensure that those who survive him will be safe. I say he is the last because I believe that 3 parts of Voldemort's soul have been destroyed. The ring and the diary and the 7th of his soul that was in his own body are all destroyed. I think that the AK that was supposed to kill Harry as a baby actually destroyed Voldemort's body and soul (at least the part of it he still had). He remained in essence because of the other horcruxes, most importantly because of the the horcrux in Harry (Harry or the scar) and that is why he remained so linked to Harry. In the end, along with the diary and the ring, the locket, the cup, and maybe Nagini will have been destroyed, Harry will be facing Voldemort when he puts it all together and realize that he is the last part of Voldemort's soul (as Voldemort already killed the 6th part). He will then sacrifice himself for all (love wins in the end).

The other piece of information that has helped to strengthen this theory for me in HBP is what Dumbledore says about his own mistakes, about how his mistakes tend to be bigger because he his rather smarter than most. One of the biggest assumptions that the characters in the books work under (as do we) is that Dumbledore knows what he is doing and Harry has accepted his interpretation of the prophecy - that either Harry or Voldemort must kill the other. JKR has said she carefully worded that prophecy to make it hard to interpret for both her readers and her characters. What if the prophecy means that literally neither can live (survive) if the other survives - If Harry lives then Voldemort lives, if Harry dies then Voldemort dies.

2) This is my second theory, the one I used to really subscribe to, but to be honest now I'm not so sure. In this theory Harry defeats Voldemort but the cost to him is very high. That while he will survive the battle and the war, his life will be "cursed," much like Frodo in LOTR. Not much canon to support this idea just my gut reaction when I first started reading the books and I was desperate to believe that he would actually survive in the end.

3) This is my newest theory. Harry survives, and is happy and whole. In the interview she did with Melissa and Emerson she talks about how she waited to so long to put Harry with Ginny because the both needed to grow up (basically). I just can't believe it was all for just those few weeks they had together. I fully expect their relationship to play a role in the last book, maybe even an important one, but I don't think that is the end of it. The scene with Harry and Ginny, Ron and Hermione sitting together in front of the fire will be seen again, in the last chapter of the 7th book. Or maybe this is just what I want to happen.

JM2K - Thanks.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Sep 10, 2005 7:36 am (#2369 of 2971)

Professor V in regards to your first theory I have believed that the connection between Harry and Voldemort has been important in Voldemort regaining his strength. I realize it is part of the plot but I think the more powerful Harry got the more powerful Voldemort could become. If Harry's scar or Harry is a Horcrux there could be a much deep connection than Voldemort transferring his powers through the failed curse to Harry. I believe the neither can survive while the other lives refers to the piece of soul in Harry. If the essence is divided I think Harry has a chance for survival if he can destroy the piece of soul without destroying himself. LPO



haymoni - Sep 10, 2005 6:39 pm (#2370 of 2971)

Did anybody else think it strange that Voldy stopped using the Scar Connection?

Dumbledore asks Harry about it and I'm sure he wanted to make certain that Voldy was not trying to access Harry's thoughts before he started down the Horcrux Theory Lessons.

However, don't you think Voldy would have tried to peek at least once?

Let's see what that Potter brat is up to these days!



RoseMorninStar - Sep 10, 2005 7:13 pm (#2371 of 2971)
Edited Sep 10, 2005 8:14 pm

Haymoni, I am still re-reading the series (almost done with OotP and ready to start on HBP) but from OotP I am under the impression that while Voldemort may sometimes be aware when Harry is 'there'in his thoughts, he cannot read Harry's thoughts (at least not unless he is close by/looking into Harry's eyes).

For example, he 'sent' Harry messages to make him curious to lure him into the ministry of magic to retrieve the prophecy, but I don't think we have any evidence that Voldemort has been able to break into Harry's thoughts. Yes, Voldemort has found out secondhand that Harry was channeling Voldemort's thoughts. We know that he 'felt' Harry's presence when the snake attacked Mr. Weasley...but we don't know that Voldemort is able to channel Harry's thoughts (unless he is near by).



Joanna S Lupin - Sep 11, 2005 4:02 am (#2372 of 2971)

He can only tell if Harry's telling the truth. There isn't any channeling, is there? Voldemort can't stand being in Harry's head, whilst Harry can, therefore Voldemort's using Occlumency to block Harry out. That's my understanding at least.



Liz Mann - Sep 11, 2005 4:39 am (#2373 of 2971)
Edited Sep 11, 2005 5:39 am

I agree with Joanna, that's what I thought too.



Soul Search - Sep 11, 2005 6:26 am (#2374 of 2971)

I was a bit puzzled by HBP's lack of interest in the Harry/Voldemort connection and occlumency. They were a major theme throughout OotP, then were barely mentioned in HBP. JKR gave a reasonable excuse, but it means that control of the connection is Voldemort's, not Harry's.

With all the "shortest stay" hints I fully expected Dumbledore to come to #4 and take Harry for occlumency lessons, where Harry would prove a quick study, Dumbledore being a much better teacher than Snape. Dumbledore could have slipped in a few lessons, but no, we just got to learn about Tom Riddle.

Snape demonstrated that Harry still has to learn occlumency, but who will teach him now?



Paulus Maximus - Sep 11, 2005 8:39 am (#2375 of 2971)
Edited Sep 11, 2005 9:40 am

When did Voldemort decide to go to the Ministry to finish Harry off?

I was under the impression that he would not set foot in the Ministry even for something as important as retrieving the prophecy, yet he came to finish Harry off when he learned that the prophecy was destroyed.

Yet I do not believe that Voldemort was already in the Ministry at the time that Harry said that the prophecy was gone.

Here's how I interpret the scene between Harry and Bella: Harry says that the prophecy is destroyed. Voledmort, "reading" Harry's mind, finds out and becomes angry. Harry feels his scar hurt, and rightly concludes that Voldemort has overheard him. Voldemort then apparates into the Ministry to finish Harry off.

Either Voldemort can read Harry's mind as Harry can read Voldemort's, or Voldemort was already in earshot (i.e. inside the Ministry) when Harry said that. Yet why would he be there in person, if he had not yet heard that the prophecy was destroyed? And if he was there in person, why did Harry's scar only hurt after he said the prophecy was destroyed?



RoseMorninStar - Sep 11, 2005 9:34 am (#2376 of 2971)

Paulus... or perhaps he could sense the fear in Bellatrix? Perhaps one of the other Death Eaters sent a signal that things were not going as planned? Or that Dumbledore showed up? It could be any number of things I suppose. Voldemort seems to either like sending others to do his dirty work...or at the least working it out so that others get blamed for the deeds that he gave the orders for.

I don't know a lot about mystics and channeling etc... so perhaps I am using the wrong word, but in finishing my re-reading of OotP I see that Voldemort was somehow channeling through Harry, because there were times when Harry felt like the 'snake' was within him and he wanted to strike out at Dumbledore. It was obvious enough the Dumbledore kept his distance from Harry. But after the ministry incident he no longer seems to have that fear. I wonder why? Harry obviously is not doing very well at Occulmency, but I think he is becoming a bit more skilled at legilimency. I find it interesting that at the time he was trying to use legilimency to find the answers to a question on his OWL exam he ended up getting that strong 'message' from Voldemort about Sirius being in danger.



Soul Search - Sep 11, 2005 11:21 am (#2377 of 2971)

RoseMorninStar -- I find it interesting that at the time he was trying to use legilimency to find the answers to a question on his OWL exam he ended up getting that strong 'message' from Voldemort about Sirius being in danger.

Well spotted. I think you are on to something.

In lessons with Snape, when he got glimpses of Snape's memories (not from the pensive), didn't he then pick up a new scene from Voldemort? I would have to check to establish a canon relationship, but I think there is something to it.



Paulus Maximus - Sep 11, 2005 11:26 am (#2378 of 2971)
Edited Sep 11, 2005 12:33 pm

Paulus... or perhaps he could sense the fear in Bellatrix? Perhaps one of the other Death Eaters sent a signal that things were not going as planned? Or that Dumbledore showed up?

I don't think that any of the Death Eaters were in any position to send a distress signal after Dumbledore had them. Except Bella, of course, but she was too busy trying to get the prophecy from Harry.

And I would hazard a guess that Voldemort's connection to Harry was far more intimate than his connection to Bella.

It was obvious enough the Dumbledore kept his distance from Harry. But after the ministry incident he no longer seems to have that fear. I wonder why?

Dumbledore said in book 6 that Voldemort was using Occlumency to keep Harry out of Voldemort's mind (which also suggests that the connection is two-way), although I suspect that the connection MIGHT have been severed completely when Harry forced Voldemort out of his mind.



Liz Mann - Sep 11, 2005 12:58 pm (#2379 of 2971)
Edited Sep 11, 2005 2:00 pm

Changing the subject slighty for a moment. I was thinking - Lucius (I think it was him), in the DoM, marvelled at the fact that Harry didn't know the significance of his scar. What was he talking about? He seemed to be referring to the prophecy, but he can't have been talking about the fact that the scar is the 'mark' of his being equal to Voldemort, because Voldie and the DEs don't know that part of the prophecy. So could he have been referring to Harry's scar being a Horcrux? Surely not, because as far as we know Voldemort hasn't told anyone, even his DEs, about the Horcruxes (obviously because it's too risky). And if Lucius DOES know then that must mean that Voldie knows the scar was made into a Horcrux, which he can't possibly do because he wouldn't then be trying so hard to kill Harry, surely? So what the heck was Lucius on about? J.K. said that there is something significant about the scar. Is it something we don't yet know about but Voldemort does, and Dumbledore did too (because Lucius was marvelling at the fact that Dumbledore hadn't told him)?



Sparrowhawk - Sep 11, 2005 1:08 pm (#2380 of 2971)

Sorry Liz, but what Lucius Malfoy said in the DOM was: 'Dumbledore never told you the reason you bear that scar was hidden in the bowels of the Department of Mysteries?' So yes, he was simply referring to the prophecy, and the fact that without it Voldemort would have had no reason to kill Harry.



Ana Cis - Sep 11, 2005 1:08 pm (#2381 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Sep 11, 2005 2:43 pm

Paulus Maximus, "Harry Potter" #2378, 11 Sep 2005 12:26 pm Paulus: You're correct, it's a two-way connection, allowing Harry and LV to see and feel each other's feelings. It's total agony for LV to feel love because he's totally evil and he has totally perverted his soul. That's what happened in the MOM when he possessed Harry. So LV is using occlumency to protect himself from Harry's feelings. I believe this is a foreshadowing of how Harry will destroy Voldemort.

However, Harry didn't forced LV out his mind, precisely; Harry's feelings of love for Sirius force LV out of Harry's body and mind.



Sparrowhawk - Sep 11, 2005 1:08 pm (#2382 of 2971)
Edited Sep 11, 2005 2:10 pm

Sorry Liz, but what Lucius Malfoy said in the DOM was: 'Dumbledore never told you the reason you bear that scar was hidden in the bowels of the Department of Mysteries?' So yes, he was simply referring to the prophecy, and the fact that without it Voldemort would have had no reason to attempt killing Harry, who therefore would never have got that scar...



Liz Mann - Sep 11, 2005 1:21 pm (#2383 of 2971)

Oh okay. Guess I remembered it wrong.



Ludicrous Patents Office - Sep 11, 2005 6:55 pm (#2384 of 2971)

Harry's scar hurts when he and Voldemort are connected. It would be harder for Voldemort to sense Harry. Voldemort needs to block Harry from his mind. I was alarmed that Dumbledore did not teach Harry Occulmency But I think what he did teach him was more important. LPO



Paulus Maximus - Sep 12, 2005 5:59 am (#2385 of 2971)

Dumbledore must have had a reason not to teach Harry Occlumency. Either he believed that Voldemort would continue to use Occlumency against Harry, or the connection was severed (which would make Occlumency unnecessary).



Esther Rose - Sep 12, 2005 7:00 am (#2386 of 2971)

I think that Dumbledore's reason for not teaching Occlumency was because explaining the Horcrux's was of more importance than Occlumency. Harry could learn Occlumency from someone else or even Hermione if she decided to study it herself. The information that Dumbledore had was information Dumbledore alone collected without assistance. Thus it took more precedence over Occlumency.

But back to the Scar or Harry as a Horcrux. What if in one of Harry's classes (charms perhaps?) Harry is taught how to extract his own memory. What would happen if Harry would tap his scar instead of anywhere else on his forehead? Would he be able to extract a Voldemort memory from his scar? I know that the Diary was a special Horcrux, but would the Horcrux within Harry (if it is) also be unique enough that memories could extracted from it as well?



Paulus Maximus - Sep 12, 2005 7:12 am (#2387 of 2971)
Edited Sep 12, 2005 8:14 am

What if in one of Harry's classes (charms perhaps?) Harry is taught how to extract his own memory.

He already knows the incantation to probe other people's memories (Legilimens), and I don't see why a wizard could not use it on himself...

Of course, some spells require more than just the incantation to work... He might indeed learn what else is necessary to learn Legilimency, if anything.

And also, probing a memory and pulling it out might require two completely different spells... but I think if Harry managed to use Legilimency on himself, it would be just as effective as a Pensieve.



Soul Search - Sep 12, 2005 7:42 am (#2388 of 2971)

Esther Rose -- "Would he be able to extract a Voldemort memory from his scar?"

What a great idea! What easier way to find out about the remaining horcruxes than to extract the information from Voldemort's memory, via the scar.



Steve Newton - Sep 12, 2005 7:52 am (#2389 of 2971)

I think that the scar connection is now more of a problem to Voldemort than to Harry. Voldemort cannot stand being in Harry. Harry is now aware of the problem and would seem to be able to get into Voldemort if he tried.



Ana Cis - Sep 12, 2005 8:13 am (#2390 of 2971)

Steve, Harry should wait until all the remaining Horcruxes are destroyed. Do you agree?



Steve Newton - Sep 12, 2005 8:24 am (#2391 of 2971)

I hadn't thought about the tactics but as a surprise late attack it might work. It also might work earlier to help Harry locate the missing horcurxes.



Ana Cis - Sep 12, 2005 8:29 am (#2392 of 2971)

...as they say in Star Wars, "I have a bad feeling about this." I don't know if Harry would be emotionally/mentally ready yet for such a battle.



Esther Rose - Sep 12, 2005 8:46 am (#2393 of 2971)

I didn't think about Legilimency as an option. I guess he could do Legilimency on his scar as well. All it would really take is a mirror. The problem is that he couldn't take anyone along with him into the memory with Legilimency. (Hermione and Ron)



kj09 - Sep 12, 2005 10:55 am (#2394 of 2971)

I really don't know where else to post this. But, when Harry looks into the basin at the potion in the cave, why is his reflection upsidedown?



Nathan Zimmermann - Sep 12, 2005 10:57 am (#2395 of 2971)
Edited Sep 12, 2005 12:04 pm

Is it possible that Dumbledore did not teach Harry Occulmency in OotP for the following reasons: First, Voldemort might learn of the plans of the Order through the connection with Harry; Second, Voldemort could have learned from Dumbledore the location of the Order's headquarters through Harry; Third Voldemort could have learned the truth about why he has been unable to defeat Harry; Fourth, Voldemort could have learned the true nature of the prophecy from Dumbledore using Harry; Fifth, Voldemort could have learned the complete truth about Severus Snape, which,is something I think only Dumbledore knows.



RoseMorninStar - Sep 12, 2005 10:15 pm (#2396 of 2971)

Kj09...I don't know, I will have to re-read that section and think it through.

I don't think retrieving memories to be used in a pensieve is the same thing as legilimency--otherwise a pensieve would not be needed. Didn't Sanpe tell Harry that Legilimency was not like reading minds/reading a book-it was more being able to interpret feelings and lies. When a memory is retrieved to be used in a pensieve, it is like watching a videotape-an exact recording of events-not emotions or falsehoods.



Paulus Maximus - Sep 13, 2005 6:33 am (#2397 of 2971)

When a memory is retrieved to be used in a pensieve, it is like watching a videotape-an exact recording of events-not emotions or falsehoods.

Yet what Harry experienced when Snape used Legilimency on him was like watching a videotape- an exact recording of events...



RoseMorninStar - Sep 13, 2005 10:26 pm (#2398 of 2971)

Paulus.. which particular incident are you refering to? When Snape used Legilimency on Harry he saw 'snippets' of things that happened.. I am not sure I follow you. I took my idea of the differences between the two (pensieve vs. Legilimency) from what Snape told Harry when he gave him lessons in Occulmency and from what JKR said about it in an interview.



Paulus Maximus - Sep 14, 2005 5:55 am (#2399 of 2971)

I'm referring to when Snape pointed his wand at Harry and said "Legilimens"...

What Harry and Snape saw then was not "emotions and falsehoods", but "video-recordings" of what had happened.



Ana Cis - Sep 14, 2005 6:39 am (#2400 of 2971)

Snape explains Legilimency as the ability to extract feelings and memories. We don't know what Snape saw; we only know what Harry saw, and those were Snape's and his memories. I didn't see Harry accessing feelings during the lessons.

However, Harry has the ability to subconsciously sense things around him and pick up on people's feelings. You can note this when he's feeling feel sorry for the person he's with—for example Luna, Hagrid, Dumbledore, and Snape. He may already have the gift of Legilimency and not be aware of it. It may also be the reason that when he's in a stressful situation, he can anticipate what's going to happen, and seem to have very quick reflexes.

Harry Potter - Page 3 2134391180

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mona
Mona
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Posts 2401 to 2450

Post  Mona Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:16 am



Dame Peverell - Sep 14, 2005 7:16 am (#2401 of 2971)

Ana Cis ~ "He may already have the gift of Legilimency and not be aware of it. It may also be the reason that when he's in a stressful situation, he can anticipate what's going to happen, and seem to have very quick reflexes."

This concurs with my theory that Harry acquired his scar along with all of Lord Voldemorts powers (except one), when LV lost them along with his body, and fled. I also think that in Harry the power has caused an increase in empathy because of his capacity for love. Harry has never been one to pick on other kids unless they were the bullies.



Ana Cis - Sep 14, 2005 7:38 am (#2402 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Sep 14, 2005 8:40 am

Excellent point!



Soul Search - Sep 14, 2005 8:48 am (#2403 of 2971)
Edited Sep 14, 2005 9:51 am

Up through OotP Harry showed great restraint with Draco and Dudley. The only taunt for Draco I recall is "dung under mother's nose" bit. Otherwise, he pretty much ignored Draco, although Draco's taunts did bother him.

Since he found out he was a wizard, Harry has shown restraint as well. He has ragged Dudley when pushed (CoS, backyard scene, and OotP, before the dementors arrived) but nothing like he was tempted to do or capable of doing.

In HBP, however, things changed a bit. The "toenails" with Crabbe (or Goyle), and the bathroom scene? with Draco. A few other little bits for Peeves, Filch, etc.

Seems like the "Half-Blood Prince" was a bad influence on Harry.



Liz Mann - Sep 14, 2005 9:58 am (#2404 of 2971)

I don't think Harry was nearly as bad in HBP as he was in OotP. In fact, I was very glad to see that he was mostly back to normal in book six, except for perhaps being more mature for his experiences. The Septumsempra thing was an accident and he was horrified by it.



Soul Search - Sep 14, 2005 2:23 pm (#2405 of 2971)

Liz Mann -- What taunting did Harry do in OotP. Okay, he tried to beat every inch of Draco after the first quiddich match, and Draco got his (expected) being turned into a slug on the train (wait Harry didn't do that, he just trained those who did). What else?



Ludicrous Patents Office - Sep 14, 2005 2:55 pm (#2406 of 2971)

I agree Liz, I liked Harry much better in HBP. I think with the Pensieve the memories are selected by the person they belong to. The Pensieve then puts them in context to show an objective picture. Legilimency shows anything that might be around. It seems fragmented and random. LPO



Liz Mann - Sep 14, 2005 3:08 pm (#2407 of 2971)

It was just his general bad temper that got to me really, Soul Search. The fact that he was always shouting, always moody, always mouthing off, beating up Malfoy like you said, and just generally acting "oh-woe-is-the-pain-that-is-my-life". Which is perfectly understandable but he did make himself a little annoying.



RoseMorninStar - Sep 14, 2005 4:32 pm (#2408 of 2971)

Liz, I think JKR wanted to show that whole 'teen-age angst' thing-although I too found it annoying. I wanted to slap Harry up the side of the once or twice! I think that angst also worked as part of the plot... Ron & Hermione also got annoyed with his behavior so they tended to brush off some of Harry's concerns because he seemed a bit 'on edge' and ready to find all kinds of conspiracies (some of which he turned out to be correct about).



Liz Mann - Sep 15, 2005 4:36 am (#2409 of 2971)

I think I see J.K.'s reasoning for making him behave like that. With everything that was happening to Harry, everything that was going wrong, all the pressure, all the bad experiences and frustration, Harry's becoming extremely angry and behaving like that was inevitable really. It would be unrealistic of any human person not to react badly to the hand Harry had been delt in life. Which is probably another reason why she then killed off Sirius, to deal Harry a blow that would, ultimately, make him realise that his behaviour is pointless, wouldn't get him anywhere but only cause more trouble, and he'd become more mature because of it. Then when Dumbledore dies (the big death that really needed to happen) Harry would already have learnt that lesson and therefore his mentor's death wouldn't bring him down in the way that Sirius's did.



greta - Sep 18, 2005 6:42 am (#2410 of 2971)

Liz Mann - I completely agree with your summation of Harry's behaviour in OOtP, annoying though he was, it was very understandable. The more mature Harry we see in HBP is all the more satisfying because of the troubled journey he went through in OOtP, he has learnt and grown because of his mistakes.



HungarianHorntail11 - Sep 18, 2005 7:03 am (#2411 of 2971)

Liz, since you mentioned why JKR may have killed off Sirius, I want to offer this quote from her:

I think you will realise why he had to go in terms of plot when you read the seventh book.

I am wondering, other than the reason you mentioned, what significance Sirius' death will be to Harry in Book 7? Her statement seems to suggest more than just Harry pursuing Big V. on his own. Could it be the inheritance of Grimmuald Place?

Stretching this a bit, could all of the horcrux objects end up here and Harry will figure it out? I always thought it was ironic that the Order met in the home of people who so despised "blood traitors".



Liz Mann - Sep 18, 2005 7:20 am (#2412 of 2971)
Edited Sep 18, 2005 8:22 am

Omg... you could be onto something! If Regulas Black is R.A.B, and I think we can be pretty sure that he is, what if the locket wasn't the only object that he managed to get? Clearly he figured out that Voldemort was using Horcruxes. Possibily he thought there was only one. But isn't it also possible that he figured out about all seven? And isn't it possible that he found more than one? Obviously he didn't find the diary or the ring, and Nagini hadn't been turned into one at that point. But he could very well have found two or three - the locket, the cup and the unknown object. And since he seems to have stored the locket in Grimmauld Place, who's to say that he hasn't stored the others there too?



HungarianHorntail11 - Sep 18, 2005 7:58 am (#2413 of 2971)

Thanks Liz, I posted more about it on the (more appropriate) horcruxes thread. There are endless possibilities, aren't there . . . Kreacher (begrudgingly) furnishing Harry with pertinent information, etc. - all fueled by your Post #2049.



Liz Mann - Sep 18, 2005 1:19 pm (#2414 of 2971)

I think you mean 2409, not 2049. I just went searching for the latter in vain!



HungarianHorntail11 - Sep 18, 2005 3:02 pm (#2415 of 2971)

So sorry! I didn't proofread, did I! I need to learn how to post those smileys and of course, how to post links:)



RoseMorninStar - Sep 18, 2005 4:26 pm (#2416 of 2971)
Edited Sep 18, 2005 5:27 pm

Liz and Hungarian.... I think you are on to something. Hungarian, when you quoted JKR... 'I think you will realise why he had to go in terms of plot when you read the seventh book.'

It made me think of the mirror that Sirius gave to Harry. Now, Harry smashed that mirror and never used it. I don't know if he could 'repairo' it or not... but JKR has said a few interesting things about Sirius and that mirror that I think might just connect with this conversation:

SiriuslyLovinSirius: If we ever see Sirius again, what form will he be in? JK Rowling replies -> I couldn't possibly answer that for fear of incriminating myself.

Kelpie_8: Will the two way mirror Sirius gave Harry ever show up again? JK Rowling replies -> Ooooo good question. There's your answer.

Do you think Sirius will help Harry from 'the other side'?



HungarianHorntail11 - Sep 18, 2005 5:11 pm (#2417 of 2971)
Edited Sep 18, 2005 6:50 pm

That's true, RoseMorninStar. JKR also said:

MA: Does he have the other mirror, or Sirius’s mirror —

JKR: I have no comment at all on that mirror. That mirror is not on the table. [Laughter from all; Jo's is maniacal.]

MA: Let the record note that she has drummed her fingers on her Coke can in a very Mr. Burns-like way.

Oh well, I guess that quashes my 12GP idea!



Weeny Owl - Sep 18, 2005 8:52 pm (#2418 of 2971)

I just don't see why Sirius would have to die in order for Harry to find Horcruxes at 12 Grimmauld Place. Yes, it's now Harry's house, but if Sirius had lived, Harry could have looked there anyway.

I was wondering, and it's quite a bit of a reach, but here goes ...

... we saw people coming out of Voldemort's wand, and when they did, they protected Harry so he could get to the Triwizard Cup and get back to Hogwarts. Could Sirius going through the veil have a purpose like that when Harry faces Voldemort in the end?

We won't see Sirius alive again, but maybe he could help Harry in other ways.



HungarianHorntail11 - Sep 19, 2005 8:01 am (#2419 of 2971)
Edited Sep 19, 2005 9:04 am

Weeny Owl, the echoes idea is a good one.

In response to the inheritance, I really feel as though Harry would not feel comfortable snooping around as a guest in someone else's home. Now a "master" of the house, he not only has command over Kreacher (remember how he couldn't get the truth out of him when asking about Sirius), he now has some semblance of control. Perhaps some secrets may even reveal themselves - I am going way out here, but I guess I feel as though Harry can learn much more as owner than guest.

All of that being said, I like the mirror idea the best. I posted many months ago that I hoped/figured Sirius had the mirror and was attempting to contact Harry while enroute to the MoM that fateful night. It just seemed to make sense that he had it in a pocket - kind of like a cell phone, trying in vain, to get in touch with Harry.

It does make more sense, though, that Sirius had to die in order to help Harry from the "other" side.



Weeny Owl - Sep 19, 2005 11:12 am (#2420 of 2971)

I didn't mean he would snoop, Hungarian, but that he could have asked Sirius about items in the house and Sirius would have been more than happy to help him.

I do wonder if Mrs. Black's portrait might not have some information Harry might need. She wouldn't talk to him under normal circumstances, but if he's the ower of the house she might. While she certainly seemed to detest Sirius, I wonder if her feelings might be different if Harry tells her that Bella killed him.



HungarianHorntail11 - Sep 19, 2005 1:22 pm (#2421 of 2971)

JKR referred to Mrs. Black's portrait as "not very 3D" and also that they are just faint impressions of what the witch's existence on earth was. I think the existence of a portrait is so faint that a change in ownership wouldn't change much with regard to Mrs. Black.



Romulus - Sep 20, 2005 2:54 am (#2422 of 2971)

One thought I have had recently is about something that comes up on here a number of times. People often ask "Why didn't X (Draco, Snape, Bellatrix, Crouch/Moody) just Aveda Kedavra Harry?" My take on this has always been that there are afraid to - he has survived it once and what if it rebounds onto the caster? Any thoughts?



Sparrowhawk - Sep 20, 2005 4:45 am (#2423 of 2971)
Edited Sep 20, 2005 5:49 am

Romulus, it is a good question! The "easiest" answer is, of course, that there would have been no Harry Potter series, otherwise...

More seriously, you are right to point out that the DEs know that Harry has already survived one AK curse (and he nearly killed Voldemort in the process), therefore they are none too willing to take the risk. Also, I can't provide you with a blanket answer, but each of the characters mentioned in your post has had very good reasons not to AK Harry, whenever he had the opportunity.

For instance, we know that Draco, for all his flaws, doesn't have the makings of a true killer - and as Barty/Moody pointed out during his DADA lessons, for the AK curse to succeed one needs to mean it...

Snape? IMO, he doesn't want to kill Harry because, for all his nastiness, he is still on DD's side. Other people believe that he's on Voldemort's side, or on his own, but even then there are good reasons why he wouldn't want Harry dead, the main one being that Voldemort wants to kill him in person (I believe that he wants to use Harry's death to make himself a new horcrux, replacing the now lost diary with gryffindor's sword...) Also, Snape told Bellatrix and Narcissa that, when Harry arrived at Hogwarts after (nearly) destroying Voldemort, many people (including Snape himself) expected the young boy to become some new dark lord, behind whom they could rally again... Not a good idea to try kill him, if this were indeed the case!

In GoF, Barty Crouch Jr could have killed Harry, but then he wanted to bring him to Voldemort alive, for obvious reasons. And eventually, when Harry came back from the cemetary, Barty tried to kill him, but Harry was saved by DD, Snape & Co...

In OotP, Bellatrix (and Lucius) had the opportunity, but she couldn't do it as long as Harry had the prophecy in his hands; she had orders not to risk destroying it, lest she'd incur the full wrath of Voldemort... Remember that Voldemort didn't know the full content of the prophecy, and he didn't want to risk fulfilling it unwittingly.

Just my two knuts...



Liz Mann - Sep 20, 2005 5:45 am (#2424 of 2971)

I completely agree with you, Sparrowhawk.



RoseMorninStar - Sep 20, 2005 6:15 am (#2425 of 2971)

Romulus, Sparrowhawk, yup. I agree. Romulus, that is a great point. A simple one that is often overlooked. The Death Eaters had to be that much more confused/afraid after seeing what happened to Voldemort & Harry in the cemetary in GoF.



Romulus - Sep 21, 2005 1:29 am (#2426 of 2971)

I was mainly thinking of the end of HBP when Snape is fleeing and the fight in the lobby in OOP when Bellatrix doesn't AK him. Also someone mentioned that Draco could have done it on the train rather than breaking his nose, but I agree Draco isn't really the killing type.

I have always thought that Harry has a mystique about him that would mean you have to be really, really sure before you attack him.



Muggle Doctor - Sep 21, 2005 2:21 pm (#2427 of 2971)

Although it was under the influence of Felix Felicis, I was quietly impressed by the point at which Harry tells Slughorn: "I am the chosen one; I have to kill him (i.e. Voldemort), and you're going to help me." I think that was when Harry finally accepted his role, regardless of what he said to Dumbledore in the Weasleys' shed ("I'll take as many of them with me as I can, and Voldemort too if I can manage it.") By the time getting Sluggy's memory comes around, he knows he HAS to manage it.

Funny thing was, I originally misread it as:

I am the chosen one. I have come to kill him.

which would have sounded MUCH more impressive IMHO... :-)



Lina - Oct 9, 2005 12:31 pm (#2428 of 2971)

I'm sorry if this has been brought up already. I tried the Search function but I didn't come to it, I might have used it in a wrong way.

I think it is interesting how Draco worked hard to master Occlumency, to repair the cabinet and Harry seems to do only things that are easy to him. He was very good in flying on the broom because he was a natural. It doesn't seem to me that he is trying to master Occlumency or nonverbal spells.

I do believe that he is going to defeat Voldemort at the end, but does it seem that it is possible to win without effort, just by doing what is easy and loving? It puzzles me.



wynnleaf - Oct 9, 2005 12:49 pm (#2429 of 2971)

I get rather ambivalent toward Harry sometimes. We see most everything through his eyes, so in that sense, you can't help, but get attached to him. And he has many qualities that are quite admirable!

But sometimes I can't help, but want to say "hey, you! Put a little effort on some of this important stuff!" or "hey, Harry, why don't you show a little more curiosity about some of the things that are obviously going to matter ?"

Oh well -- it never works.

Anyway, I agree. It does seem like Harry mainly gets by on what he's just naturally best at -- like DADA. His successes often depend on lots of other people protecting him or helping him out at the crucial time.

From my "reader's perspective" I like Harry and can see that his ability to love his friends, or be able to react decidedly under pressure really does contribute to his successes. But it's small wonder that Severus Snape (without the vantage point of someone who likes Harry) would think it's all mainly luck.



Muggle Doctor - Oct 9, 2005 6:59 pm (#2430 of 2971)
Edited Oct 9, 2005 8:03 pm

When you come to think of it, there are quite a few things Harry ought to master by the time he faces LV at the end of book 7. I assume the last chapter or two will consist of tidying up the loose ends in Harry's present, before we are treated to the epilogue and what they all grew up into, giving him even less time!

He must:

1) Learn to keep his mind shut (if only for when he next confronts Snape; Voldemort has already learned that it is a bad idea for him to enter Harry's mind).

2) Learn to spellcast without speaking (I think he's actually well on the way; it's just that he couldn't manage it under the stress of Dumbledore's illness/fighting Snape).

3) Learn how to identify a horcrux, i.e. confirm that the object he is holding is IT (there is at least one horcrux - something of Gryffindor or Ravenclaw - that he has never seen).

4) Learn how to destroy a horcrux at no risk to himself (he has four to get through), unless it is part of the plot that his friends take them out and drop out of the quest as a result. I assume that killing Nagini is the easy one, at the end.

5) Find a guaranteed way to kill Voldemort - remember that their wands are not conducive to a magical duel, and it may come down to physical means (Gryffindor's sword, for instance) or entrapping Voldemort in his head in some way (so that love can destroy him).

At least he will have thirty-odd chapters to do it in!!!



RoseMorninStar - Oct 9, 2005 7:52 pm (#2431 of 2971)

Lina, I would suggest that Draco perhaps does not work necessarily any harder than Harry does. I think Occlumency just came more natural to Draco. JKR has said so. She said that one of the reasons Draco is good at occlumency is he is able to compartimentalize his feelings... and Harry cannot. Harry wears his feelings on his sleeve. JKR also says that bullies can easily compartimentalize their emotions. So, perhaps it is ultimately a good thing that occlumency did not come easily to Harry. It would make him a different kind of person. A less honest and forthright person. Although I too was upset that he did not put more effort into his lessons!! For his own good!!!



wynnleaf - Oct 9, 2005 8:00 pm (#2432 of 2971)
Edited Oct 9, 2005 9:00 pm

Well, DD appears to be quite good at occlumency, too, and he's certainly a pretty honest person. Don't know about forthright, though.



RoseMorninStar - Oct 9, 2005 8:49 pm (#2433 of 2971)
Edited Oct 9, 2005 9:49 pm

wynnleaf, I took my opinions on Harry's ability to do (or inability) from JKR. This is what she said in her July 2005 interview with Melissa & Emerson:

JKR: ".... Draco did a lot of growing up in this book as well. I had an interesting discussion, I thought, with my editor Emma, about Draco. She said to me, "So, Malfoy can do Occlumency," which obviously Harry never mastered and has now pretty much given up on doing, or attempting. And she was querying this and wondering whether he should be as good as it, but I think Draco would be very gifted in Occlumency, unlike Harry. Harry’s problem with it was always that his emotions were too near the surface and that he is in some ways too damaged. But he's also very in touch with his feelings about what's happened to him. He's not repressed, he's quite honest about facing them, and he couldn't suppress them, he couldn't suppress these memories. But I thought of Draco as someone who is very capable of compartmentalizing his life and his emotions, and always has done. So he's shut down his pity, enabling him to bully effectively. He's shut down compassion — how else would you become a Death Eater? So he suppresses virtually all of the good side of himself. But then he's playing with the big boys, as the phrase has it, and suddenly, having talked the talk he's asked to walk it for the first time and it is absolutely terrifying. And I think that that is an accurate depiction of how some people fall into that kind of way of life and they realize what they're in for. I felt sorry for Draco. Well, I’ve always known this was coming for Draco, obviously, however nasty he was."



greta - Oct 10, 2005 1:01 am (#2434 of 2971)

I agree that it is quite likely that Draco has more of an aptitude for occulmency thatn Harry. In additon he had real motiviation to master this skill - he had been assigned a deadly task by LV and it was essential he could keep this a secret. Harry was never given any motiviation, other than DD wanted him to learn it, he was never given any explanation of the the events he witnessed in his "dreams" and was therefore increasingly curious to work out the puzzle, that is, what was at the end of the corridor in the department of mysteries, he was never told that LV may want to lure him (becasue of the prophecy) there so it was essential that he closed his mind. Also Draco had his Aunt teaching him, no matter how unhinged Bella appears I am sure she fully supported Draco in his mssion so may have been a more successfull teacher for Draco than Snape was for Harry.

Also Harry worked extremely hard to master a patronus in POA, to learn the summoning charm in GOF as well as all the other spells he mastered for the Triwizard tournament. He appeared to have the same trouble with non verbal spells as the rest of his year (apart from Hermione ofcourse) and probably had a lot more to distract him, such as being the choosen one, lessons with DD etc.



João Paulo Costa - Oct 10, 2005 1:52 am (#2435 of 2971)

Note: these are some random throughs I copiled. THEY REGARD HARRY, BUT DO NOT FOLLOW THE THE DISCUSSION CURRENTLY UNDER WAY.

The growing of Harry Potter during the series

As of this writting, there have been published already six books on the Harry Potter series. It has been posible to observe changes in the characters feelings and reactions among themselves and the world. The process follows the normal growth of a child to a youg man, to an adolescence and to a youg adult. I'll concentrate on the growth of the most obvious of the main character, Harry Potter.

In the first book, Harry is still amazed by the existence of magic and of a place like Hogwarts. Everything fascinates him and is new to him. Almost all conact that he has with other persons is by and because of the school: his friends are his colleagues, the adults are his teachers, or grown-up persons he encounters in the school.

The second book marks an event to Harry: he stays for some time in a wizarding house, living with a family of his best friend Ron. There, "everybody seems to like him", and he exposed, for the first time, to adult wizards that are not his teachers. He also starts to know some other people, mainly the minister of magic and Lucius Malfoy. However, these are very scarce events, and his knowledge of the world is still not very deep.

Only in the third book, when Harry completes therteen years, is when he starts to have the oportunity to get to know more people. He starts to be able to explore the sorroundings of Hogwarts. He knows two close friends of his family (Black and Lupin) and more regarding the circumstances of his parents deaths. He also starts to develop a romantic interest by a girl. These aspects could be related to the start of adolescence, the start of trying to forge an identity among people and the society.

In the fourth book Harry is fourteen, and the widest opening to the magical world takes place: the institutions that govern it are known. Dozens of new characters are introduced. Both Harry and us, readers, get to know more regarding what had happened thirteen years previously, and the consequences of those actions. Also, the growth of the characters continues: these are all in the adolescence, with the first issues about dating and relationships. But finally takes place the hugest event of the book: the rebirth of Voldemort. This will be, from this point, an active character of the series.

The fifth book mirrors well what is undoubtedly one of the worst life periods of the main character. He suffers huge pressures and punishments out of sheer malice, and his situation worsens because he is going by an adolescent phase and cannot control himself. He event of the exams does not help, either. For me, the fifth book is, so far, the darkest of the whole series, even worst than the sixth. On the other hand, it is in this book that Harry starts to achieve the maturity as a person. After all his problems, all his inner conflicts, after the loss of his godfather and the revelation of the prophecy, he starts to have some knowledge of his standing in the world and who is there to help him.

In the sixth book Harry is more mature and more stable. The tone of the book is less usual than the tone used in the precedent ones. This time is not school, in the academic sense, the main worry for Harry, but we see him rather trying to decide on what he must do or not. He starts to try to act, rather than just react, to the situations present in the book, having achieved autonomy of though and mind, and of feeling of what is important and should be done, besides the necessary (i.e., the school work). All this gives a rather different tone to the book. Other aspect to be aware of is the way the three main characters are looking at their first year colleagues. all of them are older, and feel older.



Saracene - Oct 10, 2005 3:02 am (#2436 of 2971)

I think that, because most nasty bullies compartmentalise their emotions, it doesn't mean that all people who compartmentalise their emotions are nasty bullies. It's not bad in itself and sometimes it's absolutely essential, too; when you work as a medic for example.

To me, it's finding and destroying Horcruxes that looks to be Harry's biggest hurdle. IMO it would be a writing cop-out if the rest of them didn't have protective mechanisms to them as strong as the ones in HBP; they've been placed there by the world's most powerful Dark Wizard after all. Destroying the ring nearly killed DD, himself a powerful wizard, and Harry obviously would never have gotten through to the locket all by himself. I find it rather hard to believe that Harry is going to be lucky four times in a row.



wynnleaf - Oct 10, 2005 3:21 am (#2437 of 2971)

I think that, because most nasty bullies compartmentalize their emotions, it doesn't mean that all people who compartmentalize their emotions are nasty bullies. It's not bad in itself and sometimes it's absolutely essential, too; when you work as a medic for example.

I agree. And compartmentalizing one's emotions doesn't, in itself, make one a dishonest person.

I wasn't disagreeing with JKR's characterization of Draco. But I meant that one couldn't take that and extrapolate to say that therefore a person who has the ability to do occlumency would, necessarily, lack honesty or forthrightness. Case in point: DD is honest and he can do occlumency.



Lina - Oct 10, 2005 5:25 am (#2438 of 2971)

Greta, I was actually looking for a post like yours... You are mostly right.

I do agree with the idea that a person should do what they are best in and what they like most. It is just that it is not always possible, there are always things that have to be done, regardless of how much are they likable. I just don't have the feeling that Harry is aware of that. I hope it will fit in Joao Costa's way of growing up in the next book (BTW, Joao Costa, I don't have something to add to your post, it is basically correct).

I can agree with the idea that Draco is talented in Occlumency, but Draco was also working very hard to repair the cabinet. It doesn't have much to do with talent, but yes, it has with the intention and will to do something. What attracted my attention was that Draco knew that Snape was trying to read his mind, and it seems to me that all the time everybody (Snape, Lupin, DD) was not just trying to read Harry's mind but succeeding in it and all he noticed was "Oh, how does he know that?". I'm not sure that Occlumency would have helped Harry against Voldemort in OotP, but he didn't have that thought "I have to do so because I'm told to." and that's what I'm missing. To learn something because you never know when it will be necessary. To treasure the knowledge the way that Hermione and DD do. Why should he, he has Hermione handy.



RoseMorninStar - Oct 10, 2005 5:52 am (#2439 of 2971)
Edited Oct 10, 2005 7:05 am

I was not trying to make the point that Harry was honest/dishonest. The post I was replying to was making a point that Harry did not try as hard as Draco did and they felt that he should work harder. I was making the point that some things come easier to Draco than they would to Harry (and vise versa).

I was trying to find a passage about Dumbledore's blackened and shriveled hand... I don't think he ever said how he recieved that injury, did he? I know he told Harry that it was a 'thrilling tale' and that he would tell him about it sometime... and there is an i implication that it came from a horcrux...but is there a passage that confirms this? I thought Dumbledore had said something a bit more direct..but I cannot find it.

The Diary did not have a curse upon it-just a bit of Voldemort's soul (which is scary enough) but the circumstances surrounding the horcrux were quite dangerous. And we know that the Hufflepuff cup and the locket already have some magic connected with them..but we don't know what kind of 'powers' they have. They could be 'good' powers (or bad). This might come into play when the horcruxes need to be destroyed.

Lina, sometimes I think it takes a level of maturity (that Harry does not yet have) to appreciate learning for learnings' sake or to be able to see and understand the wider applications of a certain skill. Some teenagers just have too much going on in their minds/bodies to be able to focus well and see the long term benefits. It's all that growing that they are doing!



Ana Cis - Oct 10, 2005 8:13 am (#2440 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Oct 10, 2005 9:14 am

The key word that JKR uses in her comment is that Harry is [emotionally] damaged. I believe that he's healing from this damage. We will probably see Harry use Occlumency when he needs it without the need to take lessons. What prevents Harry from being a good Occlumens is not that he's honest, but the he's too emotional; he hasn't learned to control his temper enough to be rational. However, he's learning. We saw evidence of this when he was talking to Scrimgeour at Christmas and at the burial. He controlled his temper while Scrimgeour was loosing his. We also saw the great effort he was making to control his temper when discussing Snape's eavesdropping with Dumbledore. He's not there yet, but has improved tremendously from where he was in Book 5.

BTW Joao Costa, excellent summary over Harry's maturing process.



HungarianHorntail11 - Oct 10, 2005 11:12 am (#2441 of 2971)

he was never told that LV may want to lure him (becasue of the prophecy) there so it was essential that he closed his mind

That is the only part of your great post that I can disagree with. Hermione pleaded with Harry to take the Occlumency lessons seriously because she recognized that he had a "saving thing". She even tried to get Ron to appeal to Harry but Ron likes to stay out of things.

I am guessing that what you are 'saying' is that if Harry had more information, such as a concrete reason as to why DD was so adamant about Harry receiving these lessons, it may have motivated him to try harder; however, the events that unfolded with the pensieve would have ended it, even if he had begun to master the task.

Sometimes one just has to do something because someone they respect asks them to - without giving a reason. It seems as though the general consensus is that Harry needed a maturity boost.



Soul Search - Oct 10, 2005 3:01 pm (#2442 of 2971)

I don't think Harry's learning occlumency would have changed anything.

What happened at the end of OotP was not Voldemort using legilimency on Harry to read his mind. Harry read Voldemort's mind. The scene he saw was false, but it still came from Voldemort's mind just like all the other times he saw into Voldemort's mind. Harry's skill at occlumency wouldn't really have mattered; even if Harry had well learned occlumency, such a scene would have got his attention anyway.

Dumbledore took most of the blame for Sirius' death, and well should have. Harry learning occlumency might have been a good thing, but would not have helped with Voldemort's clever plan at all. Only Harry understanding about the prophecy would have helped spoil Voldmeort's plan.

Dumbledore should have told Harry "everything" after GoF!



Paulus Maximus - Oct 10, 2005 3:09 pm (#2443 of 2971)
Edited Oct 10, 2005 4:10 pm

What happened at the end of OotP was not Voldemort using legilimency on Harry to read his mind. Harry read Voldemort's mind. The scene he saw was false, but it still came from Voldemort's mind just like all the other times he saw into Voldemort's mind. Harry's skill at occlumency wouldn't really have mattered; even if Harry had well learned occlumency, such a scene would have got his attention anyway.

I disagree. Had Harry learned Occlumency, he could have blocked all visions from Voldemort out of his own mind, including the false one.

It would have helped to know what was hidden in the Department of Mysteries too...



Soul Search - Oct 10, 2005 3:40 pm (#2444 of 2971)

Paulus Maximus -- I don't know. My read on occlumency is it is something you do when you think someone might be using legilimency on you, rather than something you turn on and keep 24/7. At least, any emotion seems to defeat it, making 24/7 impractical.

If Harry had seen even a bit of the scene with Voldemort and Sirius, he would not have wanted to shield himself from it. That is the key that Voldemort learned via Kreatcher: Harry cared for Sirius.



wynnleaf - Oct 10, 2005 3:50 pm (#2445 of 2971)
Edited Oct 10, 2005 4:50 pm

If Harry had learned occlumency, he might have prevented a lot of the "dreams" he'd been having. Remember, Severus kept saying to try to get rid of all emotion and work on occlumency before he went to sleep. The assumption of Severus, and apparently DD, too, is that the worst times were when Harry was asleep. So they didn't seem to be expecting a 24/7 type of occlumency. But when LV was really ready to use his connection with Harry, he didn't do it during the night while he was asleep. I think, therefore, that Soul Search is right. Harry would have been conscious and would have received the first bits of LV's thoughts, and he wouldn't have wanted to push it away. He'd want to see what the rest was. So even if he'd learned occlumency, the only real thing that would have helped would be for him to understand that LV was trying to lure him to the MOM.



Soul Search - Oct 11, 2005 5:21 am (#2446 of 2971)

Maybe a bit of reversal here. Dumbledore started the occlumency lessons for Harry after Nagini bit Mr. Weasley saying that Voldemort had become aware of the connection between him and Harry. Voldemort could read Harry's mind.

Dumbledore couldn't tell Harry anything, let alone "everything", until Harry could block Voldemort from his mind. Dumbledore felt strongly that Voldemort should not learn of the full prophecy.

Harry did not learn occlumency. Dumbledore couldn't tell Harry about the MoM. Voldemort lured Harry to the MoM.

So, Dumbledore wasn't quite as "at fault" as I previously stated.



greta - Oct 11, 2005 5:27 am (#2447 of 2971)
Edited Oct 11, 2005 6:31 am

Hungarian Horntail11 - "sometimes one just has to do something because someone they respect asks them to", yes, I quite agree, but during OOTP Harry felt abandoned by DD, DD had barely spoken to him and Harry did understand te reason why, Harry was worried that he may be a "weapon" or that DD was aggrieved due to the amount of criticism he faced after telling Harry's story to the wizarding world. Therefore, whether rightly or wrongly, Harry's feelings towards DD were extremely mixed up and I think he was less inclined to do something (that is master Occlumency)simply becasue DD requested it, this may be an immature attidue but I think considering the traumas that Harry had suffered it is an understandable one.

Soul Search I agree that there was a risk of LV gaining information from Harry before Harry could block his mind, however DD could simply have said that LV wanted to know the full contents of the prophecy and would go to any means, including luring HArry to the MOM. DD could have explained to Harry the existence of the prophecy without revealing its full contents, that may have been motivation enough to learn occulmency!



haymoni - Oct 11, 2005 6:31 am (#2448 of 2971)

I agree, greta. He could have said something. Or Snape could have said it. Especially after he saw the corridor.

Unless Snape WANTED him to see the corridor....



greta - Oct 11, 2005 6:42 am (#2449 of 2971)

OOh lets not get started on Snape!! But that does remind me of something else, I can understand DD reasoning to have Sanpe teach Harry Occulmency, but why on earth did he delegate the task of telling Harry he was to start the lessons to Sanpe himself. I think if Lupin had explained to Harry that it was essential that he has these lessons no matter how hard they might be they would have started on a more positive note. Snape comes to 12GP and provokes and insults Harry, in his usual style, before the lessons have even begun. Not a good start for a subject that requires you to let go of your emotions. I know that Lupin does reiterate the importance of the lessons to Harry on the Knight Bus, but I think snape has already done some damage.



wynnleaf - Oct 11, 2005 10:21 am (#2450 of 2971)

DD could have explained to Harry the existence of the prophecy without revealing its full contents, that may have been motivation enough to learn occulmency!

And Harry would have wanted to know the prophecy and DD could have said, "just learn occlumency and I'll tell you." That would be another motivator.

Harry Potter - Page 3 2134391180

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mona
Mona
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Posts 2451 to 2500

Post  Mona Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:20 am



greta - Oct 12, 2005 11:10 am (#2451 of 2971)

Wynleaf - exactly the point I was trying to make, Harry is known for his curiosity, so what better way to motivate him?



Soul Mate for Sirius - Oct 12, 2005 11:50 am (#2452 of 2971)
Edited Oct 12, 2005 12:54 pm

This is digressing a bit, as it's been so long since I've had a chance to catch up on this thread...

I think that although Harry does turn to things he is naturally good at (flying, DADA, etc.) he also works really hard at things he needs to know. Look at his progress with the Patronus charm in PoA. Everyone, (Lupin, Hermione, and even the MoM witches and wizards at Harry's trial in OotP) seem to think it amazing he has mastered such a hard bit of magic at such a young age. And that most certainly didn't come easy to Harry. Also, the Summoning Charm in GoF. Harry struggles with that charm from the first time Flitwick teaches it. But, he works really really hard at it and eventually not only learns how to do it, but is able to summon his Firebolt from so far away! (I imagine the charm is harder to work the farther away the object you're summoning is)

While I agree there is much Harry has to buckle down and learn before he faces LV, I wouldn't say that he isn't trying. I think in the case of Occlumency, Harry was so bitter at the lack of information that everyone was giving him, that he had no desire to stop his dreams about the corridor to the DoM since that was the only bit of the puzzle he was getting. Also, his feelings for Snape made if that much more difficult for Harry to mask his emotions and clear his mind. As to the Unspoken Spells, again I feel that Snape's presence as Harry teacher has something to do with Harry's inability to do them. It seems that here, again, Harry's dislike for Snape kept him from achieving any success at the spells, as his mind was always too preoccupied in class with hatred for Snape.

Now I'm not saying Harry should go and use these things as an excuse for never learning Unspoken Spells or Occlumency, I'm just saying these are reasons why in the past he didn't buckle down and work hard at them. I do, on the other hand, think we would be asking an awful lot of this teenage boy to expect him to always master everything in every situation and never turn to what he is good at first. Everyone tries to turn to the things they are naturally good at to help in sticky situations before trying to master something they have a hard time doing. It's a natural reaction. While I think Harry must learn some of these things he's had a block for, I also think it was okay that he turned to the easy stuff first (like flying in the first task in GoF) because almost anyone else would have done the same thing in his situation.

I agree with everyone who says that telling Harry the bare minimum about the prophecy would probably have motivated him to learn Occlumency. In the case of his learning Summoning Charms and the Patronus Charm, Harry had clear motivation. He need to get past the Horntail on his broom and need to stay on his broom during Quidditch respectively. In the cases of Occlumency and Unspoken Charms, his need to learn these skills is unclear to him at the time. He is not told why he has to keep LV out of his head specifically in OotP and therefore has little drive to really try in his extra lessons with Snape. He also doesn't see how important Unspoken Charms will be in his showdown with LV right away, so there again, he doesn't have enough motivation to work hard at something for Snape's class.

-Jenn



greta - Oct 12, 2005 12:27 pm (#2453 of 2971)

Soul Mate For Sirius - I agree wholeheatedly with all of the above you have stated. Also I don't believe that Harry is having particular trouble with unspoken spells, he has not mastered it completely, but this seems to be the case with many of his class mates. After 5 years of speaking an incantation I think it is understandable that it may take a while to unlearn this. He managed "levicorpus" non verbally with ease. I completely agree with soul Mate for Sirius that part of the problem is Snape, not just Harry's dislike of Snape, I also believe they are not a compatible teacher/student partnership (putting it politely!). Also Harry has a great talent at pulling off spectacular pieces of magic at just the right time, for example he dissaparated both himself and DD from the cave to Hogsmede(which I imagine was a fair distance) when prior to that all he had attempted was travelling to the hoop.

Yes - I would love Harry to work 150% at every task he is given, but that would make him fairly irritating and not nearly as easy to identify with. Its just not part of his character.



Lina - Oct 12, 2005 1:04 pm (#2454 of 2971)

Actually, I was afraid that the message of the series could be that the hard working is not important, but you did manage to make me understand that it is not like that. As a matter of fact, Harry's preparing the DADA classes was a hard work. So, my heart is in place. (this is the translation from my language, I don't know if it fits in english )

I think he did notice the great amount of knowledge that DD had and that he admires it, so he might continue researching it after the series...

I do agree with all of you who said that a different approach would have helped him to master more skills, but if he did, than there would be no plot... It is really charming how neither of the characters is perfect, not Harry, not even DD!

I tend to think that he is not going to need to master Occlumency or nonverbal spells to defeat Voldemort, well, he might need it to deal with Snape, but not with Voldemort. I think that the main message of the series is that Love is the most important of all and that is the right weapon that will defeat Voldemort. Just my thought.



Paulus Maximus - Oct 12, 2005 5:45 pm (#2455 of 2971)

I think that Harry will not rest until Snape is accounted for as well. And love alone will not help him defeat Snape. (Snape is too familiar with love to be hurt by it, if I'm reading between the lines right.)



Solitaire - Oct 12, 2005 7:57 pm (#2456 of 2971)
Edited Oct 12, 2005 9:00 pm

Sometimes one just has to do something because someone they respect asks them to - without giving a reason.

I personally feel this is foolish and dangerous advice. Of course, I am speaking out of a very bitter personal experience. Someone I'd known for years, loved as a friend, and respected deeply asked me to trust her to handle fairly and responsibly a particular issue which affected us both. The way she chose to handle it created a lot of serious emotional casualties, one of whom was me. After a great deal of prayer, I was eventually able to forgive her; however, the deep bond of trust was broken forever. I am very guarded with her and afraid to trust her again with anything of consequence.

I will never again agree to do anything without understanding exactly what is being asked of me and what the worst-case consequences will be to me and those I love ... no matter who asks me or how much I love him or her.

I can understand very well why Harry wants to know all of the facts. Some people are better able to judge what they can and cannot do when they know what the potential consequences could be for acting or not acting. As much as I love Dumbldore, I agree with the poster who said Harry should have been given the full picture back at the end of GoF. It might have made a difference in how he dealt with Snape and a number of other situations.

Solitaire



RoseMorninStar - Oct 12, 2005 9:31 pm (#2457 of 2971)
Edited Oct 12, 2005 10:33 pm

Solitaire- I am so sorry to hear of your trials and I am glad to hear you are on the mend. I agree with you. Although there may be times when trust is a very good thing, there are far too many instances where people use that trust for purposes that are less than for the good of others. I have seen too many people who volunteer at church or youth funtions, etc... so they can gain the 'trust' of the people who see that person as someone to trust because they are involved with church or a big community volunteer. Some people prey on the trust of others and let the victims fall where they may.

In the books WE know we should trust Dumbledore, but I think a healthy sense of skeptisicm is not such a bad thing. I don't think it helped that Snape was the one giving the lessons as Harry does not trust him. It may turn out for good reason. We do not know yet. And, as JKR has said, Occlumency is something that Harry will not be good at..for the time being anyway. He has issues to clear up first.



Mrs Brisbee - Oct 13, 2005 11:17 am (#2458 of 2971)

I agree with what Solitaire and RoseMorninStar say about trust.

I think that Harry and his relationship with the Half-Blood Prince's potion book works as a metaphor for the perils of blind trust.

Harry finds the margin notes to be beneficial, and starts thinking of the Prince as a helpful friend whose advice he can always trust. In some ways Harry becomes a sheep to the book. Maybe it is an over-reaction on his part to being saddled with the whole "Chosen One" bit.

Harry surrenders his intellectual development. He copies the Prince's potion directions, but doesn't give any thought as to why they might work better. When the book can't provide him with an answer, he is no more brilliant at potions than he was before. He doesn't learn from the book, but he is content that it makes him look good.

Harry also ignores his moral compass when it comes to the Prince's jinxes. He starts jinxing people in the corridors just because he can. The sort of behavior he disapproved of in James.

He also turns off his common sense when it comes to the Prince. The books instructions are helpful, therefore the Prince must be a good guy. Harry ignores the mounting evidence about the Prince's character, and stupidly casts Secumseptra without knowing what it does. If Harry had been paying attention it wouldn't have been such a shock.

Note that the book is just a book, and isn't making him do any of this. I think Harry just misplaced his trust in it, and turned into one of those followers who never thinks too deeply about where their leader is going.



HungarianHorntail11 - Oct 13, 2005 11:28 am (#2459 of 2971)
Edited Oct 13, 2005 12:32 pm

Solitaire, I am sorry to hear that your good nature was taken advantage of. (There is a saying, no good deed goes unpunished.)

With regard to my statement, I certainly would not imply that it should be applied to every situation or even most situations. In the situation we are discussing, which was for Harry to learn something, it fits. I like wynnleaf's suggestion better, but in reality, there are some times when a parent asks something of a child (and vice versa) and the trust between them is what gets them through. I looked upon this relationship in a similar manner and in no way am implying that it should be the rule, rather than the exception.

Edit: Mrs. Brisbee, don't you think it is odd that Harry so willingly/blindly trusted a book, but not DD?



Detail Seeker - Oct 13, 2005 11:56 am (#2460 of 2971)

As for Harry using the "Sectumsempra": He was not haphazardly jinxing people, but wass in a situation confronted with an unforgiveable cast against him and he took the first spell he thought of - and for some reason, this was the spell he did just know the incantation , but not the effect. Perhaps he had - subconsciously even - asked himself, what this spell might do and so had it present in his mind.

And that is a difference to the situation, when James humiliated Snape by using Snape´s invention against the inventor just for the fun of it or to continue a feud, that has been going on for longerr - or how would James have known about Snape´s invention if not by Snape using it.



greta - Oct 13, 2005 12:09 pm (#2461 of 2971)

Also Fred and George played plenty of pranks on people and I am sure this was not disapproved of on the whole (well only by Hermione and Filch), most people seem to laugh with Fred and George, I am sure this was the case with Harry and the HBP jinxes - Ron laughed along wholeheartedly after the first levicorpus incident, no malice was intended. Also James hexing everyone in the corridor could have been viewed in the same light, the particular event with Snape is ofcourse an exception and was malicious, but this is the only event we have witnessed, James behavious otherwise may have been consider good fun



wynnleaf - Oct 13, 2005 12:58 pm (#2462 of 2971)
Edited Oct 13, 2005 2:28 pm

Detail Seeker,

Actually, after Harry first saw sectumsempra mentioned, he was looking for a chance to use it. It just so happened, his first "chance" was in a situation where Draco was going to use Crucio on him.

Toward the start of Sectumsempra: He had still not found out what it did, mainly because he did not want to test it around Hermione, but he was considering trying it out on McLaggen next time he came up behind him unawares.

If that's not haphazardly hexing someone, I don't know what is!

The situation is quite different in several ways from either James or Severus years before. 1. When Severus used one of the spells, he already knew what they would do. We don't know if he ever used one with such drastic results, but when he was using his own spells he wasn't firing off a curse or hex at somebody with no idea what would happen. In fact, in the pensieve scene he does appear to use sectumsempra, but with such reserve that James' face only gets a cut. Draco is almost slashed to death. 2. When James used the levicorpus spell, we can be almost certain that he had already seen or even used the spell before and knew what it would do. It was a mean thing to do, but at least it wasn't a spell fired off with no knowledge of what would happen.



Lina - Oct 13, 2005 1:52 pm (#2463 of 2971)

It is a very interesting discussion about trust. Actually, I had quite the opposite experience than Solitaire's. A person I trusted told me that it would be better to act this way than another. There was no way that I could understand the reasons at that time. Only years later, seeing other people's experiences and my experience I was glad that I trusted that person. Probably I would have acted the same way if I hadn't got that advice, but still I knew that the advice was good only years later.

The point is that the trust is something that is earned . The trust is something that can be misused. We should be able to choose the right persons to trust and we may misjudge them. I'm sure that James was as disappointed in Peter as Solitaire was in her friend. I don't think that DD didn't deserve or earn the trust.

Greta: Ron laughed along wholeheartedly after the first Levicorpus incident, no malice was intended.
Indeed. Because he trusted Harry and he was sure that Harry ment no harm even though it could have happened.



Mrs Brisbee - Oct 13, 2005 2:16 pm (#2464 of 2971)

Mrs. Brisbee, don't you think it is odd that Harry so willingly/blindly trusted a book, but not DD? --HungarianHorntail11

That's actually a tough one to answer.

Harry does trust Dumbledore, but it is true it isn't a blind trust. He doesn't want to trust Snape just on Dumbledore's say so. Harry has been through a lot, and has had to rely on himself and his abilities for so long that surrendering his ability to judge a person's character over to someone else isn't something he can easily do.

Do I find it odd that Harry would put so much blind trust in a book? Yes. That's why I was thinking it might be some sort of reaction to suddenly being "The Chosen One", and having all sorts of idiots fawning all over him. Maybe it is easier to trust the book because it is an object instead of a person.



Honour - Oct 13, 2005 5:11 pm (#2465 of 2971)

Plus I think he actually enjoyed finally being able to "out do" Hermione in class ...



Saracene - Oct 13, 2005 10:31 pm (#2466 of 2971)

I definitely think that it's much easier to trust a book than a living person. When you know basically nothing about the person other than that their Potions notes are very useful to you, it's very easy to automatically think well of them. Especially after Prince's notes on bezoar helped Harry save Ron's life when he was poisoned.

Regarding DD: I think that Harry's very personal distaste of Snape plays a significant part in why he's unwilling to trust DD's judgement. I also think that the respect other characters have for DD's judgement is undoubtedly earned and his word doesn't carry a lot of weight for nothing. Blind trust IMO can't account for the fact that DD's word alone was enough to clear Snape's name before the wizard's court during Death Eaters trials.



greta - Oct 15, 2005 12:24 am (#2467 of 2971)
Edited Oct 15, 2005 1:32 am

Harry trusts the book because up until sectumsempra he has only had positive experiences from the notes the book has provided. During OOTP he felt abandoned and overlooked by DD which affected his willingness to "blindly" trust him - Harry was only 15 and felt hurt and let down and was almost defying DD. Also I think this issue is a mark of Harry's maturing process, trying to make his own choices and decisions and part of that process in questioning DD.

Also on the topic of the Potions book, if Harry does return to Hogwarts at all does anyone think that he should retrieve the book from the room of requirement? I personally think he should, it was extremeely instructive and if there were any more jinxes Harry would now know to excercise caution when trying them. Also DD showed Harry for the past year that you should know and understand your enemy. As far as Harry is concerned Snape is the enemy therefore this book could be a small insight into his mind as a schoolboy and around the time he was starting on is death eater career.



Lina - Oct 15, 2005 3:23 am (#2468 of 2971)

From the point of view Snape = enemy, which is quite probable, it would be a really good idea to do more researching on the Potions book! I agree, Greta. I would also like to see him research more the RoR itself. You remember, he saw the vanishing cabinet when he was leaving the book there. Who knows what other interesting and important things he could find there?

One more thought on the Sectumsempra curse:
When Harry tried the Cruciatus curse on Bella, she said that he had to mean it to make it work. If Snape was practicing the Sectumsempra curse on James, does it mean that he ment much less harm than Harry when he was facing Draco? Or maybe he was just in the process of perfecting it... Uhm...



greta - Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am (#2469 of 2971)

As Snape had invented the spell he may have only intended a slash across the face, he could control the severity of the spell. Harry had no idea what the spell did and was confronted by an unforgivable curse, therefore I would imagine emotions were running high which resulted in such drastic results.

Lina - I would also like to have a good look around the RoR where Harry hid the book, I'm sure there will be some importnat items there.



Solitaire - Oct 15, 2005 9:03 am (#2470 of 2971)

Thank you all for your kind words. I recovered from my ordeal some years ago ... but this topic strain brought it immediately before me, so perhaps I reacted too strongly. I still think I would insist on knowing details before I committed to something, however. Not doing so would be like signing a blank check--dangerous!

I was interested to know why Harry didn't have a clue what Sectumsempra would do. I haven't studied Latin, but I immediately thought of sempra (always?) and sectum (cut? divide?). The Cruciatus and Imperius curses seem to be related to their Latin meanings. Our students study word roots, prefixes, and suffixes, and I guess I figured these kids would have done the same. A very basic understanding of Latin word roots would have given Harry a clue to the possible nature of this curse.

Solitaire



HungarianHorntail11 - Oct 15, 2005 1:28 pm (#2471 of 2971)

Lina, regarding the Sectumsempra curse; I read it to the effect that however many slashes you make with your wand, that is how many cuts you perform on the enemy. In the Pensieve scene, Snape only slashes his wand once, while Harry was 'wildly slashing' at the air. (Not verbatim, but you get the message.)



wynnleaf - Oct 15, 2005 3:46 pm (#2472 of 2971)
Edited Oct 15, 2005 4:47 pm

I think there's a big difference between trusting notes in the potions book versus trusting an individual who you know.

The notes were, for the most part, just "facts" kinds of information -- how to do this or that. So for most of the notes, the "trusting" part is just trusting whether or not the HBP's notes will actually turn out to work well or not. Every time Harry uses the notes in class, he gets loads of praise -- certainly an indication that the writer of the notes knew what he was doing. I guess what I'm saying is that most of the notes that we get to read are mostly devoid of commentary. The sectumsempra is the first to have any commentary with it -- "for enemies." And that's somewhat ambiguous since it doesn't indicate anything of what it really does, how or when to use it. The "trust" required of Harry up until sectumsempra is primarily one of trusting the potions and spell making ability of the writer, not a question of trusting the writer's wisdom, verasity, or character.

If all Harry needed to trust about DD was whether or not a spell DD taught him would actually work, Harry would never have any problem trusting DD. It was only when it came to the more subjective things that Harry started to doubt.

When Harry read "for enemies" on the sectumsempra curse, it was really the first piece of commentary that he'd seen from the HBP -- first indication of a circumstance one might actually use a spell for, and that wasn't even clear in the note. But Harry hadn't really had any reason thus far to distrust the HBP's notes. The biggest problem for Harry wasn't in misplaced trust, but in using any spell without knowing what it would do.

Now with DD, Harry had quite a bit of history of the results DD's decisions. Motives aside, DD was the one who decided Harry should spend 10 years with the Dursleys, even though, as it turned out, LV wasn't really able to do anything during that period. It was DD's decision that sent Harry back to the Dursley's each summer, even though he could have been just as safe at Hogwarts. DD's decisions kept Sirius as 12GP for a year. DD's decisions keep Harry in the dark of really important information about the prophecy, and keep DD out of contact with Harry all through OOTP. From Harry's perspective, these weren't the greatest decisions, regardless what DD's motives were and regardless how much some of those decisions may have been for Harry's own good. So it's really not all that surprising, from Harry's point of view, that he would be somewhat skeptical of DD's decisions.



haymoni - Oct 15, 2005 4:36 pm (#2473 of 2971)

I am really surprised that Harry didn't get into more trouble for that spell. I can't believe Minerva didn't grill him for where he learned it. I think he got off pretty easy.

I did notice that Snape had to "sing" twice in order to heal Draco. I wonder who he practiced that spell on when he was inventing it?



RoseMorninStar - Oct 15, 2005 5:56 pm (#2474 of 2971)
Edited Oct 15, 2005 6:58 pm

I think Snape was initially stunned when Harry used 'such dark magic'. I think it is good for Draco & the 'dark side' to know that Harry knows how to fight. I also think that the potions book would be worth retrieving because it has the counter curses in it as well as the curses. Not to mention mighty useful potions instructions! I think Harry (Hermione & Ron, etc..) would be wise to make more of the Felix potion for the upcoming Wizarding Wars.

I think Greta was right... study that potions book. As they say, 'better the devil you know' and 'forwarned is forarmed.'

I also cannot help but wonder if Snape is angry that Harry has learned so much from him from his book, or if he is proud that Harry thought that the book was such a treasure he took pains to hide it. Most teachers (even nasty ones I would think) would be proud to know how much a student learned from their skill.



Lina - Oct 15, 2005 11:37 pm (#2475 of 2971)

HH11, you make sense, I think I'll try to find a better thread to add my thoughts on Sectumsempra.

When it comes to trust - it is not like DD told Harry to jump in the lake and trust him that he will be fine, he asked him to master a skill. How can a skill make harm to the person who mastered it? I would take this advice even from an enemy.

I am surprised as well on how is Minerva put on the margins ever since OotP. I don't think it is fair. She is a headmistresses to be...



Solitaire - Oct 16, 2005 8:23 am (#2476 of 2971)
Edited Oct 16, 2005 9:27 am

I may be forgetting something from OotP, but I do not remember anyone telling Harry that Voldemort could insert images and ideas into his mind, which is what happened to finally take him to the Ministry. I simply think that Dumbledore did not go as far as he might have (should have?) in explaining to Harry the extent of what Legilimency involved. Because Harry was not sufficiently informed about what was happening--or might happen--to him, I believe he felt the dreams were providing him with information that Dumbledore and others had been denying him. Had he been fully informed of what to expect--and had he been given a reliable and appropriate way to contact Sirius or any other Order member when he was in distress--he might have felt less "hung out to dry," which is surely how he felt at Hogwarts after Dumbledore split!

Solitaire

Edit: I realize that everyone probably felt that having Hagrid, Snape, and McGonagall on the Hogwarts premises was sufficient. But they should have realized that Harry did not trust Snape, and they also should have foreseen--given the events thus far--that problems might ensue which separated Harry from these three.



Mrs. D. - Oct 16, 2005 8:28 am (#2477 of 2971)

I found it very disturbing that Harry would trust any book after CoS. That book was, he thought at the beginning, helpful as well but in fact was full of dark magic. Yes he is a young boy and kids do tend to make the same mistakes repeatedly, however, that is a huge error in judgement. The potions book may not have a mind of it's own but the potions "help" may get darker and darker as one progresses through the chapters. I would have expected Harry to ask his friends about it and their opinions at the very least.



RoseMorninStar - Oct 16, 2005 8:50 am (#2478 of 2971)
Edited Oct 16, 2005 9:53 am

From my take upon reading HBP the potions book was not entirely 'dark'. I mean, the potions that they were supposed to be learning how to make in class were turning out beautifully-ONLY when the HBP potions book was being used. And, in my opinion, there is no difference between using the instructions from the 'official' potions book and the altered ones if the end result is a correctly made potion. It would be like altering a recipe in a cook book so that the food turns out better. Quite frankly.. if that potion book was so often more consistant in making the potions correctly, I cannot see why the old potions book hasn't been replaced with a better version long ago... however, I digress and my sense of logic is taking over the fact that this is a work of fiction and I am taking it entirely all to seriously.

That said, the book had not 'failed' Harry repeatedly. Yes, we hear Hermione's comments, but sometimes I think it is sour grapes on her part because she puts too much faith in the original potions book, which, it appears, is not all that well written. She is upset that someone is able to get better results than she is. The book, up until the Sectumsempre curse, had not really produced any 'dark' magic'.

I put the blame squarely on Harry's shoulders for the use of the Sectumsempre curse. He had no idea what would happen...it was marked 'for enemies' and he chose to use it untried. Fortunately when he did use it, it was an occasion that he was in a valid defensive position..namely protecting himself from an unforgiveable curse from Draco. But, all in all, if one is on the 'light' side, a less damaging curse (a full body bind) would have done. Fortunately for Harry, Snape was nearby. I cannot imagine what Harry would have done should Draco have died, or him having to run and get help and explain himself. Not a good situation for our 'hero'. But, it is an example of serious errors in judgement we all make from time to time, especially when we are younger and have less experience under our belts. Live & Learn. Let's hope Harry has learned a valuable lesson.



Solitaire - Oct 16, 2005 8:58 am (#2479 of 2971)

I cannot see why the old potions book hasn't been replaced with a better version long ago

Perhaps no one (but Snape) knows there are better ways to make the potions. If he had let on that he knew tricks to make the potions even better, then everyone could be as good as he was ... right? Snape would never have wanted that to happen!

Solitaire



wynnleaf - Oct 16, 2005 2:10 pm (#2480 of 2971)
Edited Oct 16, 2005 3:15 pm

Well, Slughorn can apparently get potions to come out quite well, too. Does that mean he doesn't go "by the book" either? Maybe he has his own unpublished methods also. On the other hand, it could be that doing things "by the book" will get good results, it's just that the book didn't give the little bits of extra advice that help make those good results possible.

I'm not a great cook, and I've occasionally used a recipe that a friend achieved excellent results with, but no matter how carefully I followed the instructions, my attempt never seemed to match theirs. Was there something different that they were doing? You bet! And whatever it was, a way of beating something, knowing just what to look for in a blend of ingredients, who knows? But it wasn't in the recipe.

Another point. Just because a person is highly skilled at something doesn't mean they can just run out and get a book of their methods published. One needs some sort of "name" in the field. Severus had taught at Hogwarts for years, but without going out and sort of "making a name" for himself as an accomplished potions master, he wouldn't necessarily get a book published. Last, if one really wants to be "known" as a great potions person, you don't hide your light under a bushel -- he wouldn't just teach quietly at Hogwarts. If he really wanted everybody to think how great he was, becoming the author of the primary potions textbook would be a way to do it.



Soul Search - Oct 16, 2005 3:06 pm (#2481 of 2971)
Edited Oct 16, 2005 4:07 pm

The potions book was a sizable sub-plot in HBP, culminating with Harry's use of the Sectumsempre curse and discovering that Snape was the source of all the wonderful spells. Harry learned some valuable lessons from the book.

Are we done with the potions book and those lessons, or were they background for book seven?

Too much time was spent on the sub-plot for it not to play a role in book seven. I think the most important lesson was something along the lines of "Don't judge a person by what you think you see."

Harry went to some effort to convince Hermione that the potions book wasn't dark or evil. Now, he has to convince himself that its author, likewise, isn't dark or evil.

Will the Sectumsempre curse play a role? Harry did it rather well. Seems a bit dark, though.



Ana Cis - Oct 16, 2005 3:40 pm (#2482 of 2971)

You would think that young man would have learned from his previous experienced about a book. Ron had learned from his father to be careful about books when one doesn't where they come from, and warned Harry about it. Harry disregarded the warning; we all know how dark the diary turned out to be. Hermione warned him and so did Ginny about this book and the fact that they don't know much about it. Yes, Hermione is jealous about how well he's doing using that text, but her warning is still valid. So what does Harry do? He tries spells without knowing the consequences. He sometimes needs to be hit by a 2-by-4 solid block of wood to learn from his previous experiences. So now he jumps from one end of the spectrum to the other—the book is either totally good or totally bad...talk about being stuck in an emotionally dually!

It will probably take another 2-by-4 right between the eyes, to make him use the book...with caution!



Saracene - Oct 16, 2005 6:26 pm (#2483 of 2971)

Yeah, Harry can be very black-and-white at times. First he totally refuses to think bad of Prince even after the Sectumsempra curse; then once he learns that book belonged to Snape of course it has to be the proof that Snape was evil through and through since schooldays.

Regarding the Potions book, my guess is that Snape didn't really care much about improving the general standard of education, especially in a subject that wasn't his first preference to teach. And while he's extremely touchy about getting respect from the students, I don't get an impression he cares about fame or making a name for himself in the wizarding world.



Lina - Oct 17, 2005 5:48 am (#2484 of 2971)
Edited Oct 17, 2005 6:48 am

Arthur Weasley said that any thing with the brains of it's own shouldn't be trusted if you don't know where the brains came from. It's a difference. This was a plain book, it didn't talk to Harry or communicate with him in any way, it just had useful comments. Any wise person would try unknown and so poorly explained curse on something that is not a human, first. Well, Harry had no time to do that. It's not like he was possessed by the book.

I really hope that the experience with the book will make Harry think more about Snape and learn something for his life. I hope that HBP was not last that we read about it.



greta - Oct 17, 2005 7:21 am (#2485 of 2971)

I have also wandered why the NEWT potions book had not been replaced and I came to two possibilities. First of all, maybe it has, if Snape was teaching they may have used a different book. Slughorn has not taught for quite some time, when he came out of retirement he may have simply assigned the text that was the best however many years ago.

OR perhaps when you reach NEWT level the potions instructions are merely a guide to producing an adequate potion, after all I don't think Hermione fails at producing any of her potions they are just not as brilliant as Harry's. The student are maybe supposed to add their own twists to the potions at this more advanced level. However if that was the case they never received any instruction from Slughorn that they should be creative, but this may be because this is something they should have started earlier when studying for OWLS, they never did this, because Snape had already improved the instructions so much he felt there was no need for his students to "experiment" (after all Snape always writes the instructions on the blackboard rather than referring to a book)

I know Harry ignores warnings about the book, but that is just part of his character. He is quite reckless! he grabbed the prophecy from the shelf despite Rons appeal not to touch it. His recklessness can lead to trouble, but it can also pay off as he is willing to take risks. Just in the same way that being over cautious could be a disadvantage. As he grows he will find some middle gound



Solitaire - Oct 17, 2005 9:40 am (#2486 of 2971)

In most of his crisis situations, Harry relies on his "guts" to get him through things. He is very honest about this with Hermione and the others in OotP, when they want him to teach them. I do not think Harry has any great delusions about his magical skills. He knows he has "gaps" in his knowledge and abilities, and he knows that he is usually a heartbeat from death most of the time.

I think he felt that fate had smiled upon him when he was given the Prince's potion book. It must have been incredibly intoxicating to suddenly be considered talented in a subject where Snape had been telling him for years that he was a moron--and doing everything he could to undermine his progress in that subject.

I will admit that Harry should have heeded Arthur's advice--never trust anything if you can't see where it keeps its brain. I can also understand how difficult it would be when he continually achieved success in Potions class by following the Prince's extra little tips. It would have been hard to even consider relinquishing such resounding success after so many years of disastrous classes with Snape.

Solitaire



Mrs Brisbee - Oct 17, 2005 10:49 am (#2487 of 2971)

Now with DD, Harry had quite a bit of history of the results DD's decisions. Motives aside, DD was the one who decided Harry should spend 10 years with the Dursleys, even though, as it turned out, LV wasn't really able to do anything during that period. It was DD's decision that sent Harry back to the Dursley's each summer, even though he could have been just as safe at Hogwarts. DD's decisions kept Sirius as 12GP for a year. DD's decisions keep Harry in the dark of really important information about the prophecy, and keep DD out of contact with Harry all through OOTP. From Harry's perspective, these weren't the greatest decisions, regardless what DD's motives were and regardless how much some of those decisions may have been for Harry's own good. So it's really not all that surprising, from Harry's point of view, that he would be somewhat skeptical of DD's decisions. --wynnleaf

I agree, Harry's issues with trust and Dumbledore are seeded in some very real events. Harry really wants to trust Dumbledore, and he does on many levels, but he can't help the ambivalence. It's like when Harry doesn't pack in HBP; it's not because he thinks Dumbledore won't show up, it's because he won't be able to stand the disappointment if Dumbledore doesn't show up

I think he felt that fate had smiled upon him when he was given the Prince's potion book. It must have been incredibly intoxicating to suddenly be considered talented in a subject where Snape had been telling him for years that he was a moron--and doing everything he could to undermine his progress in that subject. --Solitaire

It's interesting that Harry thinks the Prince is a much more effective teacher than Snape (HBP, Ch 12, "Silver and Opals"). The book is just providing a set of written instructions, not any sort of interactive teaching. It's like when Snape ignores Harry in OotP, or is absent during OWLs, and Harry finds he can do the Potions work. It doesn't say much for the measure of Snape's teaching ability.



Mrs. D. - Oct 17, 2005 10:54 am (#2488 of 2971)

Isn't it rather curious that Harry wasn't able to follow instructions written on a blackboard but had no problem with the book? They are in essence the same thing. Read and follow directions. I wonder if JKR will address it or we are just to assume his extreme unease with professor Snape is to blame.



Solitaire - Oct 17, 2005 11:34 am (#2489 of 2971)
Edited Oct 17, 2005 12:35 pm

we are just to assume his extreme unease with professor Snape is to blame

I think that is very much the problem. From the very first day Harry set foot in Hogwarts, Snape has sought to make him look stupid in front of his peers. He has criticized him, punished him unfairly, played favorites against him, and generally sought to undermine him in every possible way.

Yes, I realize some feel this is all "character building" and intended to teach Harry some special lesson. Harry, however, had already endured such treatment from the Dursleys as a matter of course for years, so any "lesson" Snape may have intended was probably lost. All Snape did was to make himself so hated that any influence he may have had on Harry has been seriously undermined ... by Snape himself.

Most of Harry's teachers seem to realize that Harry learns well when he is treated humanely. I consider Snape's treatment of him to border on abusive. Don't bother trying to talk me out of my feelings. I'm a teacher, and I've seen Snapes before ... I've also seen the results of the damage they inflict on kids. Whatever Snape's intent, he is a lousy example of a teacher.

Solitaire



Saracene - Oct 17, 2005 4:21 pm (#2490 of 2971)

I definitely do not buy the idea that Snape's vicious behaviour towards Harry (and other students) is meant to be "character-building" or whatever. He shows all signs of actually enjoying mistreating students for its own sake, and there's no reason IMO to believe that he acts that way because he sincerely believes it to be all for the children's benefit. Neville's grandmother, for example, at times sounds excessively harsh towards her grandson - but unlike Snape I fully believe that she doesn't do it because she simply enjoys being nasty to Neville.



wynnleaf - Oct 17, 2005 4:51 pm (#2491 of 2971)

I think of Severus Snape as a pretty embittered person, resentfully lashing out at Harry and certain others connected to Harry as an outlet for his own bitterness and whatever other "demons" drive him.

I'd doubt if he actually enjoys it in the same sense that we might think of enjoying something that's indeed fun or thrilling. I think whatever "enjoyment" he gets out of it is similar to the satisfaction that people get when they feed their anger, their resentment or hate. I think his cruelty is a way of feeding his own bitterness and hate.

It is entirely inexcusable. Personally, I think anyone with that many personal problems, that manifest in abusive behavior to others, has no business teaching.

Still, DD hired him and I'm pretty sure he's working for the Order (or more likely DD particularly).



RoseMorninStar - Oct 17, 2005 8:22 pm (#2492 of 2971)
Edited Oct 17, 2005 9:25 pm

Snape is a puzzle. Personally, I think Snape was raised with abuse and knows no other way. That is not an excuse. That is not a great personality for a teacher. But, as JKR says, we have all had teachers similar to Snape. Teachers who shouldn't be teaching. It would be nice if that were not true, but it is. (Although Snape is an extreme) We learn something from all of them.

I have mixed feelings about Dumbledore being held (entirely) responsible for the way things turned out with Harry at the Dursley's. I think in a similar situation an orphaned child would most likely be placed with family. That would be the most logical thing to do. And unless Dumbledore turns out to be somehow related to Harry, I am not sure what else he could have done at the time. He knew Harry would be a 'hunted' boy and he had to make a decision. He decided to give Harry the best protection he could and he relied on his mother's blood (bond) which flowed in the veins of Lily's only living relative, Petunia.

We do not know much about Dumbledore's background and I am hoping there will be something about it in the last book. I am so curious to see how it ties in with Harry or perhaps the things they have in common.

I still have a strange feeling that Snape may have copied down Lily's potion-making 'inspirational successes' into his own potions book. The only reason I feel this way is because of the odd mention of 'peppermints'. That sounds so...'Lily'..and not very...'Snape-ish'. I know, that's a weak reason, but that's all I've got! Of course, all of the dark notations would be Snapes alone. It would be kind of neat if Harry found out that all of those suggested changes that helped him in potions were from his mother.

I still don't know which way to go about Snape. I have always felt that Snape was loyal to Dumbledore but as I was writting this post I looked up a quote from JKR on Snape and it has made me wonder:

What about Snape?

JKR: Snape is a very sadistic teacher, loosely based on a teacher I myself had, I have to say. I think children are very aware and we are kidding ourselves if we don’t think that they are, that teachers do sometimes abuse their power and this particular teacher does abuse his power. He’s not a particularly pleasant person at all. However, everyone should keep their eye on Snape, I’ll just say that because there is more to him than meets the eye and you will find out part of what I am talking about if you read Book 4. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Of course JKR is talking about Snape being a double spy at the end of book 4, but the part that caught my eye was the second line. The one about kids knowing that teachers abuse their power. I know that Snape is one nasty teacher (and the other adults may know that he is not exactly pleasant but may be surprised to know just how nasty he is to students) but having a nasty personality doesn't necesarily make one a traitor. But is JKR trying to tell us here that we should trust Harry's accessment of Snape? Or is she just saying he is abusive?

I think JKR must really be enjoying keeping us in stitches!



wynnleaf - Oct 17, 2005 8:51 pm (#2493 of 2971)
Edited Oct 17, 2005 9:57 pm

RoseMorninStar said:

The only reason I feel this way is because of the odd mention of 'peppermints'. That sounds so...'Lily'..and not very...'Snape-ish'.

This is one of the entries that convinces me Severus is the only author. The peppermint was an addition to a much corrected version of an Elixir to Produce Euphoria. 1. If the potion was copied from someone else it wouldn't have so many crossings out and corrections. 2. The fact that it does have so many corrections seemed to me to imply that the person making those corrections wanted to get this particular potion exactly right. Why? 3. The peppermint is in there to prevent the more obvious, outward signs of euphoria. What's the point in getting rid of those signs if it's only an academic exercise?

I can't see Lily desiring a potion induced euphoria. But if Severus ever did want one, he'd probably want to avoid the outward signs of it.

I have mixed feelings about Dumbledore being held (entirely) responsible for the way things turned out with Harry at the Dursley's.

I thought you might be referring to my earlier comments on Harry not trusting DD as much. I wasn't trying to say that DD should necessarily be held responsible for the way things turned out at the Dursleys. The Dursleys have to be responsible for that. But from Harry's point of view, it just adds another of those decisions that DD made supposedly for Harry's sake, that turned out to cause Harry a lot of pain and unhappiness.



RoseMorninStar - Oct 17, 2005 10:08 pm (#2494 of 2971)

wynnleaf, about the Dumbledore/Dursley issue...I wasn't (only) responding to your comments..I was just responding in general. I think it is easy for 'us' to think of Dumbledore as an omnipotent person who can see all - do all, when he is only human,(well, a wizard/human) and he cannot see what the future holds.

You bring up a good point about the potions book however. I will have to re-read that section and ponder. I guess I just think it would be so cool for Harry to have had that 'help' from his mother. That would be so touching. Maybe Lily & Snape worked on it together..and it was for Petunia! OK..so, I know I am reaching here!!



Saracene - Oct 17, 2005 11:32 pm (#2495 of 2971)

I think DD mentioned that another reason why he placed Harry with his Muggle family, rather than a wizard one who'd be happy to raise Harry, was so that Harry would not grow up knowing how famous he is in the wizarding community and how special his name and scar are. Harry could still avoid turning into a little spoiled prince, of course, but he'd definitely have more difficulty growing up without an inflated head if he had to do so in a spotlight.

While Snape is definitely a blot on his profession, from the literary point of view you do need a person like him in a book; if only to balance out the rest of the teachers who either like Harry or are simply neutral. Plus most people probably have run into teachers like him and can relate; whenever Harry bites back at Snape it makes me think of what I'd like to have said to some horrible teachers I had to endure at school. Oh, and words cannot express how much I love George and Fred's final farewell to Umbridge, Smile

I do feel that Snape is loyal to DD, even though he probably doesn't give a care about the rest of the Order and is not likely to ever become any nicer. BTW, I always thought it pretty remarkable that, all things considering, he and Professor McGonagall get along as well as they seem to. Keeping in mind how intense the competition and animosity between their houses is it would have been so easy for them to slip into a personal grudge against each other; but they seem pretty professional about it.



Lina - Oct 18, 2005 1:27 am (#2496 of 2971)

It was, indeed, a great risk to give Harry to the Dursleys after seeing how growing up in the muggle orphanage affected Tom Riddle. Now, if Tom grew up in a loving and caring family, would he ever turn out so evil? Actually, we don't know. he obviously had a lot of nastiness to inherit, while Harry had a lot of love and care to inherit from his parents even though he didn't have a lot of time to feel it. And how much did DD know about Petunia and her attitude when he gave Harry to her? JKR says that the letter he left with Harry on her doorstep was the last letter he sent to Petunia and that there were other (or at least one) letters before that one. Shell we find out more about them in the Last book?



Solitaire - Oct 18, 2005 9:55 am (#2497 of 2971)

I do feel that Snape is loyal to DD, even though he probably doesn't give a care about the rest of the Order

This is a dangerous kind of loyalty, because it means any sense of loyalty or allegiance is likely to die with its object. I personally do not see how one could truly be loyal to Dumbledore without supporting and fighting for the ideals for which he stood ... or standing against the injustices and abuses against which he fought so whole-heartedly.

Solitaire



wynnleaf - Oct 18, 2005 10:17 am (#2498 of 2971)
Edited Oct 18, 2005 11:18 am

I do feel that Snape is loyal to DD, even though he probably doesn't give a care about the rest of the Order

While this wasn't my statement, I tend to agree with it, although I'd be happy to be proved wrong.

This is a dangerous kind of loyalty, because it means any sense of loyalty or allegiance is likely to die with its object. I personally do not see how one could truly be loyal to Dumbledore without supporting and fighting for the ideals for which he stood ... or standing against the injustices and abuses against which he fought so whole-heartedly.

I agree with this, too. My "gut" feeling or "read" on Severus is that he is thoroughly opposed to LV, but in terms of who or what he's loyal to, I'd think he's much more likely to be personally loyal to DD, rather than the Order, although he may share many of its ideals. If that's the case, I'm not much concerned that he'd start supporting LV's side, but if DD is truly and properly dead (which I doubt), then I think Severus would be far more tempted to follow his own direction, which may or may not coincide with the Order's goals.

In some ways this is similar to Harry. Harry is thoroughly opposed to LV, and he is personally "dd's man through and through." But at the end of book 6 he had no plans to share either the information that he obtained from DD, or his personal plans to combat LV with any of the Order members. I don't necessarily have any disagreement with that, but it does seem that Harry's loyalties are more to the individual DD, than to the group of individuals that make up the Order. Of course, he agrees with their overall ideals, but his plans, at least at the end of HBP, are to work on his own, not with the Order.



Mrs Brisbee - Oct 18, 2005 11:06 am (#2499 of 2971)

In some ways this is similar to Harry. Harry is thoroughly opposed to LV, and he is personally "dd's man through and through." But at the end of book 6 he had no plans to share either the information that he obtained from DD, or his personal plans to combat LV with any of the Order members. I don't necessarily have any disagreement with that, but it does seem that Harry's loyalties are more to the individual DD, than to the group of individuals that make up the Order. Of course, he agrees with their overall ideals, but his plans, at least at the end of HBP, are to work on his own, not with the Order. --wynnleaf

I'm really hoping that, in the end, Harry will show an ability to trust and work with all his friends and allies to defeat Voldemort, and this will prove to be a strength he had over Dumbledore and his way of fighting Voldemort. I'm not going to hold my breath that it will happen, because I really don't know where Rowling is going with this, but in many ways Dumbledore seemed like he was hoarding information and tackling the Horcruxes alone. I'd also like to see Harry be a player rather than a piece on the board.

Going back to the book for a moment, I can see a parallel between Harry trusting the book because it proves helpful, and the way Slughorn chooses his friends and allies because they will prove helpful to him. Neither take into account character --the person's (or writer's) real character-- until they unequivocally cannot ignore it any longer, like when Slughorn learns that Tom Riddle is contemplating seven murders for seven Horcruxes.

I think one of the big themes of HBP is the question of how one judges how trustworthy someone is. Dumbledore lets Harry tell Ron and Hermione about the Horcruxes, because he says they have proved themselves trustworthy. Most people trust Dumbledore, and Dumbledore wants them to trust Snape on his say so. Most are willing to do this. Dumbledore trusts Harry. McGonagall seems to be out of the loop, despite her high position. Slughorn is a poor judge of character, he is interested mostly in what he gets in return, and no one should be trusted on his say so. I'm rambling. I had a coherent thought before I sat down to write, maybe it will return later.



wynnleaf - Oct 18, 2005 11:57 am (#2500 of 2971)

Mrs Brisbee,

While I'm not sure where exactly you were going, your comments made me think about DD's trust versus Harry's trust of the potions book. There is a similarity, due to proven trust. DD says that Ron and Hermione have proven trustworthy. We tend to think Severus has proven trustworthy to DD. DD, who most of the Order believe has proven his trustworthiness, wants the rest of the Order, the faculty, and Harry to trust him about Severus.

When Harry trusts the book, I think that he trusts it based on the fact that it -- as far as his experience goes -- proves its trustworthiness. Every time he uses the notes in the book, he is extremely successful in Potions class. When he uses the various hexes and spells he discovers, they are all relatively mild -- growing long toenails, or raising someone in the air by their ankle. So from his viewpoint, the notes have proven their trustworthiness. Sure, Hermione objects to the book, but that seems to Harry (and to me), mostly Hermione being irritated at Harry doing better than her in Potions without having to really put in the extra study to achieve such success. Sour grapes, in other words.

Prior to sectumsempra, I think Harry feels that the HBP note writer has proven himself.

His defense of the HBP following the revelation of how serious a spell is the sectumsempra is somewhat understandable. The HBP had given only mild hexes, and quite excellent potions instructions up to that point. So Harry thinks maybe the HBP had maybe only learned the sectumsempra elsewhere, or it had been used on him, and he had put it in the book under "for enemies," for some sort of good reason.

At that point, I don't really blame Harry for defending the HBP. What I would think he should have done, though, is seriously reconsider the degree of confidence he should place in every one of the notes in the book, as well as use a lot more discretion when trying out the spells. I wouldn't think the HBP's notes at that immediate point just after the Sectumsempra chapter, warrant deciding the notes are completely untrustworthy.

Harry Potter - Page 3 2134391180

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mona
Mona
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Posts 2501 to 2550

Post  Mona Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:22 am



RoseMorninStar - Oct 18, 2005 12:29 pm (#2501 of 2971)

wynnleaf, I agree with you completely. We have to realize that we are looking at the potions book with 20/20 hindsight. Up until the sectumsempre curse, Harry really had no reason not to trust the book. We also have to realize that Harry (and everyone else in the Wizarding World) comes into contact with magical items every day. It would be sort of like us getting worried about every electrial switch because we once had the experience of one catching on fire. We realize that until a particular electrical device shows that it is unsafe, and it has proved to be helpful in the past, we trust that it is OK.



Mrs Brisbee - Oct 18, 2005 12:47 pm (#2502 of 2971)

Yeah, I was trying to go somewhere with the whole How do you judge someone trustworthy thing, but got lost.

Anyway, I think Harry starts to trust the book because it is accurate and helpful. Because it is accurate and helpful, in his mind the writer must be the same. I think he imbues the writer with qualities that aren't warranted by the evidence. It is just a book, with a set of helpful instructions. The problem is with Harry deciding that the book's accuracy and helpfulness is equal to trustworthiness, to the point that he won't consider that there might be a problem with blindly doing the spells written in the book. I think Harry can trust that the information will work, but I don't think that is the same as being trustworthy.

There is a pattern to the information in the book that I think shows that blithely using the spells in it without consideration will lead to trouble. The spells in the book are all jinxes or hexes, things you cast on other people to annoy or hinder them. There are no "helpful" spells. Harry surrenders his good judgment to the book because it has helped him up to the point he cast Sectumsempra. I think that kind of trust is a lot like what Slughorn uses to judge people: value is determined by what they can offer him, not by character.



HungarianHorntail11 - Oct 18, 2005 1:03 pm (#2503 of 2971)
Edited Oct 18, 2005 2:06 pm

He’s not a particularly pleasant person at all. However, everyone should keep their eye on Snape, . . .JKR interview excerpt RoseMorninStar

Going on a hunch, I noticed that JKR said however rather than furthermore, or in addition. That seems to be somewhat of a slip-up to me. However indicates that there is something contradictory rather than following along the same line of thought.

Going back to the book for a moment, I can see a parallel between Harry trusting the book because it proves helpful, and the way Slughorn chooses his friends and allies because they will prove helpful to him. Neither take into account character --the person's (or writer's) real character-- until they unequivocally cannot ignore it any longer, Mrs Brisbee

Mrs Brisbee and wynnleaf, I really enjoyed those posts and wonder where it will lead Harry. Will he recognize his error and correct it, or will he continue to be obstinate and refuse to see what DD and the Potions book are trying to get him to see? Edit to Mrs Brisbee: don't forget, Harry saved Ron by 'shoving a bezoar down his throat'.

I had a coherent thought before I sat down to write, maybe it will return later.

Sounds like my constant state of mind.



Solitaire - Oct 18, 2005 3:42 pm (#2504 of 2971)

I think what bothers me most about this spell is the note that it is to be used only on one's enemies (or am I hallucinating here). That warning alone should have been a big red flag that Harry ought to learn what the spell does before using it on a living being ... particularly a person. The fact that it came so readily to him in the circumstance with Malfoy leads me to believe he certainly had been dwelling on it continually ...

Solitaire



me and my shadow 813 - Oct 18, 2005 4:23 pm (#2505 of 2971)

I feel that, once again, we're being shown Harry's behavior in order to draw more similarities between the "good guys" and "bad guys".

We've got Harry admiring the Prince, etc. and all this after OP's revealing young Snape contrasted by a rude awakening about James's & Sirius's behavior.

JKR once said Slytherin represents qualities that we must accept in ourselves (or something to that affect), besides their having "positive" qualities of resourcefulness, etc. I feel her ultimate message about good vs. evil will have very blurred lines. JKR also once said her favorite play is "Macbeth". The Weird Sisters in Macbeth say "fair is foul and foul is fair". It may be that Harry discovers this applies sometimes.



Saracene - Oct 18, 2005 9:56 pm (#2506 of 2971)

This is a dangerous kind of loyalty, because it means any sense of loyalty or allegiance is likely to die with its object.

Not necessarily IMO. If, for example, DD knew he was going to die and left Snape with instructions as to what he'd like Snape to do after he's gone, Snape would honour them if he is truly loyal, even if he'd do so grudgingly.

I think that while Harry would have believed in the Order's cause whether or not he was personally loyal to DD and whether or not LV killed his parents, he is somewhat similar to Snape in that his biggest reason for working against Voldemort is very personal.



Solitaire - Oct 22, 2005 10:04 am (#2507 of 2971)

To hide the Malfoys as completely as Dumbledore would have done, Snape would probably need the assistance of the Order. Unless the other Order members already know that Snape was acting on DD's orders when he administered the killing curse (something of which we cannot be certain at this point), Snape is going to have his hands full taking care of himself--let alone anyone else.

Solitaire



Soul Search - Oct 22, 2005 6:14 pm (#2508 of 2971)

I have been a bit puzzled by Dumbledore's offer to Draco to hide and protect him and Narcissa. How could he do it? Snape's vow meant he had to kill Dumbledore, if Draco didn't. Did Dumbledore have some way to circumvent the vow?

Doesn't matter much, since Draco didn't take him up on his offer.

But, if Dumbledore knew how to circumvent Snape's unbreakable vow to Narcissa, then was Snape's AKing Dumbledore necessary?



wynnleaf - Oct 22, 2005 7:42 pm (#2509 of 2971)

Soul Search,

This has been a key question I've had, too. DD was on the tower without a wand and there was obviously a fight going on below. As far as DD supposedly knew, Severus was still in his rooms. Yet he makes this offer to Draco in the apparent confidence that he can follow through on his offer. So if Draco had said, "yes, I give up. Hide me!" I think we have to assume that DD had a way to do it. Otherwise, the offer to Draco was an empty offer.



Soul Search - Oct 23, 2005 7:16 am (#2510 of 2971)
Edited Oct 23, 2005 8:23 am

Snape made the unbreakable vow to Narcissa, with Bellatrix as Bonder. Do we know what role the Bonder has?

Could Narcissa release Snape from the Vow? Makes sense that whoever the vow was made to, could release a person from an unbreakable vow. Might require participation of the original Bonder, though.

My thoughts are that if Draco and Narcissa accepted Dumbledore's offer of hiding them, Narcissa could then have released Snape from the vow. Without that, the vow had to be fulfilled. Dumbledore's "Plan A" was for Draco and Narcissa to accept his offer and release Snape from the vow. It didn't work, so he had to move to "Plan B," which was Snape AKing him.



Solitaire - Oct 23, 2005 7:19 am (#2511 of 2971)

I have no doubt a wizard as powerful as Dumbledore could have managed to elude the DEs with Draco in tow, had Draco accepted; otherwise, he would not have made the offer. Question: Does anyone think Draco would have accepted the offer had Snape not turned up when he did?

But this is really off topic and probably should go to Draco's thread, if anyone wants to pursue it.

Solitaire



Soul Search - Oct 23, 2005 7:31 am (#2512 of 2971)

Solitaire,

Not off topic at all. Events on the tower, Snape, and Draco will all have a profound affect on Harry in book 7. For example, Harry heard Draco refuse Dumbledore's offer, yet lower his wand before the DE's arrived.

Somehow, Draco has come to view Snape as a rival (for Voldemort's respect?) So, Snape's presence on the tower could very well have influenced Draco's rejection of Dumbledore's offer.

Good suggestion.

However, it may be more important to recognize this about the Draco/Snape relationship than the "what if."



Detail Seeker - Oct 23, 2005 11:13 am (#2513 of 2971)

Soul Search, my impression of the Bonder is, that he acts at least as a witness of some kind. He seals the magic contract.

As we do not know, how the Unbreakable Vow is enforced, especially, who decides, that it has not been kept, there might be another function for the Bonder. Third, we do not know, how a person, not keeping an Unbreakable Vow is killed, that might be a task for the Bonder, too.



Saracene - Oct 23, 2005 4:12 pm (#2514 of 2971)

I think that what put a blanket on Draco accepting DD's offer was not Snape, but the appearance of Death Eaters. DD doesn't repeat his offer once they show up and doesn't hint on it in any way. Draco I think would be far too scared to accept it in the presence of four Death Eaters; especially considering that they're all armed and dangerous and DD is weak and helpless.

I tend to think that Unbreakable Vow is not enforced by a person, Bonder or otherwise, because there're simply way too many possibilities for it all go wrong and messy; what if the Bonder gets killed in the attempt to enforce it, for example?



HungarianHorntail11 - Oct 23, 2005 5:22 pm (#2515 of 2971)

I agree that it doesn't include the bonder, Saracene. Furthermore, we don't even know if a 3rd person is required as a bonder. I think, once the spell is cast, it is a magical contract which supercedes everything/everyone else.



me and my shadow 813 - Oct 28, 2005 10:14 am (#2516 of 2971)

This is a change of topic, but wondering if any of you remember which thread addresses the Harry/Lily eye connection.

There's a quote from Moody in GoF when in class he's trying to Imperio Harry and Harry is resisting. Moody says: "Potter fought it! Damn near beat it! Watch his eyes - that's where you see it."

So it got me thinking of the bright green eye thing with Harry and Lily has something to do with this comment. Strong self will. Moody says not many wizards can resist it. Crouch couldn't...



Tazzygirl - Nov 4, 2005 6:01 pm (#2517 of 2971)

OK, this has probably already been touched on, but I don't really have the time to look through 2000+ posts so here goes: I am re-reading SS (for the fiftieth time! ) and I found this passage towards the back of the book-

Firenze saved me [Harry], but he shouldn't have done so...Bane was furious...he was talking about interfering with what the planets say is going to happen...They must show that Voldemort's coming back...Bane thinks Firenze should have let Voldemort kill me...I suppose that's written in the stars as well.- SS chap. 15, pg. 260 Paperback American Edition.

So, could this be a clue to Book 7? Do you think Harry will die along with Voldemort? My mom thinks so (I hope she's wrong!!!), because the people Harry most wants to be with is his family and Sirius. hmmmm...

Oh- if this topic was already discussed, you can ignore it if you want! I thought I would just share...



Lina - Nov 4, 2005 11:16 pm (#2518 of 2971)

Actually, Voldemort did try to kill Harry several times after that scene and didn't make it. Nothing implies that he would have succeeded to do it if Harry weren't helped that night.

The way that I see it, Bane just thinks that centaurs shouldn't interfere in human lives. In my own opinion, it is only Harry who thinks that Voldemort would have killed him, since that was the first time that he actually met Voldemort after the rebounded curse, at least that he was aware of it.

If Firenze hadn't helped Harry, that night, maybe it would have been Voldemort who would have suffered great damage from the meeting and it could have made Voldemort weaker for the future, but Firenze couldn't just watch and see what was going to happen.

DD says that it is all about the choices, and Firenze chose to help Harry. Bane thinks that it is all about living separate lives, which doesn't really seem possible.

Thinking more about it, the way that DD acts most of the time, I would say that he is a much better centaur than Firenze is... But that would probably be a discussion for another thread.

Therefore, I think that it doesn't mean that Harry would die with or without Voldemort, but this is JM2K.

BTW, Tazzygirl, great avatar!



Tazzygirl - Nov 5, 2005 12:39 am (#2519 of 2971)

Thanks, Lina! My avatar is a picture I took of a sunset here in Hawaii- Hawaii has the most beautiful sunsets every night! (Your Avatar is neat too!)

I know Voldemort has tried killing Harry several times, but I was thinking about the final match between the two in book seven. I understand what you are saying- I hadn't thought of it that way. If Firenze had not helped Harry, then definitely the outcome of the books would be way different! I guess it could have been just Harry thinking about what might have happened in the forest, but since JKR has splattered the books with hints and such, I think this might be one. Who knows? We'll find out in a couple years!

I guess since I have read all six books many times, I am now going through and picking stuff that might be hints (or what is left of the hints!) that would lead up to book seven.



Ace Potter - Nov 5, 2005 8:42 am (#2520 of 2971)

Hey guys how do you get or make(whatever you do!!!) an avatar? I would really like to have one!!

Well, I don't think harry will have anyone to protect him in book 7 and I don't think he will need it!! But to get there i think he will need some help getting there.



Finn BV - Nov 5, 2005 11:01 am (#2521 of 2971)

Ace Potter, you have to become a Premium Member, which allows unlimited posting (regular, free membership is only 10 posts a day) and an avatar. This is, I believe, around $12 US for 1 year, and $20 US for two years. There is also a 6-month option, but I forgot how much that costs… There should be some sort of link at the top of the main forum page that you can investigate into.



Tazzygirl - Nov 5, 2005 11:34 am (#2522 of 2971)

Ace- just go to your introduction page, click on change settings and scroll down the page until you see 'load picture'. That's what I did. If you are using a picture that you took, you need to downsize it. If you go to the 'How do you...' thread and look through search, there are many people who asked the same thing and got a lot of help back!



Finn BV - Nov 5, 2005 3:00 pm (#2523 of 2971)

Tazzygirl, of course, this is once you become a premium member.



Tazzygirl - Nov 5, 2005 3:09 pm (#2524 of 2971)

oops- sorry! I thought you could before (it was on my introduction settings before I became a premium member.) I'm just making all sorts of mistakes... Isn't this discussion supposed to be on the "How do you..." thread???



The giant squid - Nov 6, 2005 2:49 am (#2525 of 2971)

Isn't this discussion supposed to be on the "How do you..." thread???

Probably, but I'll add one last bit--the stuff in the introduction was around before Premium Membership came around, so some of it may be incorrect (it's not as if Kip's got anything better to do with his 15 minutes of spare time per day ). Finn is correct in that you need to get the membership to get an avatar.

So, Harry and the centaurs...



Ace Potter - Nov 6, 2005 3:55 am (#2526 of 2971)

Anyway, Back to the discussion at hand! Do we really think Harry would have died had Firenze not saved him? I think not!

I also don't think Voldemort(YES I SAID THE NAME!!!) could kill anyone in the condition he was. Possession yes but Killing I think not.

Thanks to FinnBV, Tazzygirl and The Giant Squid the information!!!



frogface - Nov 6, 2005 4:09 am (#2527 of 2971)

Him and Quirrel managed to take down a unicorn, that they're meant to be very hard to catch. I think Harry very well may have died if Firenze had not saved him.



azi - Nov 6, 2005 5:32 am (#2528 of 2971)

But surely if Quirrel had touched Harry, even then he would have experienced the same pain as he did when he attacked Harry later in the book? Am I right in thinking that as Quirrel could not 'hurt' Harry, he would therefore not have been able to cast a spell to hurt him? That would mean Harry would not have been killed. I seem to remember Harry was merely tied up by Quirrel using magic when he attempted to get the Philosophers Stone. This would not count as hurting him.



Finn BV - Nov 6, 2005 8:56 am (#2529 of 2971)

It's interesting… I had always imagined, once PoA had been published, that Vapormort would have acted something like a Dementor – Harry would have lost his soul had he been touched in the Forest by Vapormort.

The giant squid - Nov 6, 2005 2:49 am Go to bed, Mike!



Tazzygirl - Nov 6, 2005 1:36 pm (#2530 of 2971)

All good points! BUT in the beginning, when Harry and Hagrid were in the the Leaky Cauldron for the first time, and everyone was coming up to shake Harry's hand, Quirrel did come up and shake Harry's hand.

P-P-potter, stammered Professor Quirrel, grasping Harry's hand, "c-can't t-tell you how p-pleased I am to meet you."

Did Voldemort take over Quirrel's body before or after that meeting? I think it was before, because Quirrel then went and tried to break into vault 713. So... I think at the meeting in the forest with Firenze, Voldemort could have done something to Harry. Maybe not kill him, but injure Harry in some way. I think that was the last time that Voldemort could still touch Harry and not get hurt. hmmmm...

Your welcome, Ace!



Lina - Nov 6, 2005 1:44 pm (#2531 of 2971)

I do agree that, if Firenze hadn't helped Harry, the book would have lost some of it's plot, but the outcome would have been the same as it was at the end. Even if LV would have come to the idea to posses him at that moment, he would have felt the same mortal agony as he did at the end of OotP. There is a possibility that LV would be damaged from this encounter much more than he was damaged in the encounter that happened at the end of the book. So, Bane might have had a very good reason to be angry with Firenze. And Firenze's action might have ment that he really underestimated Harry which might have even not been fair. But Firenze saw just a little boy in trouble and the Dark Lord who has shown to be very powerful in the past and didn't think of anything more. I think that Harry's observation of what happened in the Forest is showing just how much he was underestimating himself at the moment and how much he believed that Voldemort was powerful too. I don't think that it was ment to foreshadow anything, just to show Harry's feelings. JM2K

Edit: Tazzy, that has been discussed over and over. Some think that Voldemort was not possessing Quirrell yet at that time, some think that he didn't mean no harm to Harry at that time so it was O.K. for him to touch him. I tried to find if JKR stated anything about that but couldn't find anything in short time, maybe someone else have the right link.



Liessie - Nov 6, 2005 2:21 pm (#2532 of 2971)

Tazzygirl, Lina: I think the answer is in PS itself, in the last chapter of PS Quirrel says "When I failed to steal the Stone from Gringotts, he was most displeased. He punished me....decided he would have to keep a closer watch on me..."

The Sorting Hat chapter (i.e. after the Gringotts incident) is also the first time Harry sees Quirrel with the turban on - 'He was looking very peculiar in a large purple turban'.



Tazzygirl - Nov 6, 2005 2:25 pm (#2533 of 2971)

OH yeah! Thanks Liessie! Now I remember when the kids got to Hogwarts and Quirrel had the turban on, I flipped back to the Leaky Cauldron scene and realized Quirrel did not have a turban on then. Makes sense now! I think the movie had gotten into my head at the time- because in the movie Quirrel was wearing a turban in the Leaky Cauldron.



Lina - Nov 6, 2005 2:34 pm (#2534 of 2971)

Liessie, thank you very much!



Liessie - Nov 6, 2005 2:41 pm (#2535 of 2971)

You're welcome! Film contamination.....I had to read and re-read PS after the film just to make sure that I had it right in my head and that the film was wrong - that was way before I discovered HP fansites/forums (this one in particular).

Back to Harry (and the centaurs) now...



Tazzygirl - Nov 6, 2005 4:34 pm (#2536 of 2971)

Yeah- when I read the passage for Harry (see the first post I wrote about a day ago or so), I seriously got a chill like "This could be something! Why didn't I see this before?" I think I might be taking some of the passages a little more seriously now since seeing what is being written on the forum!



Liessie - Nov 6, 2005 5:05 pm (#2537 of 2971)

On a bit of a different topic - I hope this fits in to this thread, it is something to do with Harry.

Has anyone noticed that Harry's new vault at Gringotts (from Sirius) is number 711 (PoA)? Now if the vaults are arranged like houses in a street where you get odd numbers next to each other and the same with even numbers, then this would put it next to the vault where the Philosopher's Stone was kept (713). Who did that vault belong to in the first place, Nicholas Flamel or Dumbledore? Will it be significant for Harry - maybe DD left something else for him there? I don't know, just throwing up something to ponder about.



Tazzygirl - Nov 6, 2005 7:12 pm (#2538 of 2971)

I didn't even notice vault 711- need to go back and re-read! I automatically assumed the money was transferred into Harry's original Gringott's vault...

I think that if DD did leave something in there for Harry, it would virtually be impossible for him to retrieve it, since it is a high-security vault. Let me think on it a little more!!



Liessie - Nov 6, 2005 7:41 pm (#2539 of 2971)

You're probably right and the gold just gets added to his exisitng account. I had kept a note of Sirius' vault number at the back of my head since PoA, I couldn't imagine the reason why JKR threw the actual vault number into that letter from Sirius (it didn't seem relevant), so I was waiting for it to lead to something significant and when Harry inherited from Sirius, it was the first thing that jumped into my mind! I am just clutching at straws to get new clues!

If DD did leave something in a vault then I think Harry (or anyone else) would only need a letter of authorisation from DD as Hagrid had. I see DD as someone who would be very organised and have that sort of letter waiting if anything happens.



Tazzygirl - Nov 6, 2005 7:58 pm (#2540 of 2971)

Maybe DD did write a letter of authorization, but what do you think would be in the vault? The vault hasn't even really been mentioned in the last couple of books. But I think this could go farther... I am already starting to pick up some ideas... Need to form them into something understandable first, though!!

I too am trying to pick up any loose straws that people might have missed!



Ydnam96 - Nov 6, 2005 10:24 pm (#2541 of 2971)

Hmmm... to throw my thoughts in...

Tazzy, I assumed the same thing, but I guess in the Wizarding World it could make a lot of sense that Harry would have access to both vaults unitl he moved the contents of one into the other. I'm not sure that DD would have left anything in the PS/SS vault...but I could be wrong.

As far as whether or not Harry could have been killed by Quirrelmort in the forest, I think that he could have been. Quirrel couldn't touch him but he could probably use a spell. In PS/SS did Quirrel have a wand? Why was it that he was physically attacking Harry? Hmmm...



Tazzygirl - Nov 6, 2005 10:34 pm (#2542 of 2971)

Ydname96- I like 'Quirrelmort'! It definitely sums up the two characters!

We aren't sure either if something was left in Vault 719- I can't really think of anything that could have been left in there for any reason- the horcruxes did not show up until HBP, and in the entire book nothing was mentioned of the vault.

Quirrel did have a wand- he used it at the end of the book to tie Harry up when they were standing in front of the Mirror of Erised.

Hmmmmmm... Why was Harry physically attacked by Quirrel? I think that is a pretty good question... Maybe Voldemort had so much pent up energy of hate towards Harry that Quirrel just went back to plain old physical fighting? Just throwing out ideas!



The giant squid - Nov 7, 2005 1:45 am (#2543 of 2971)

The giant squid - Nov 6, 2005 2:49 am Go to bed, Mike! --Finn BV

You're just jealous that I don't have to get up & go to school in the morning... Finally, a hint that you aren't a 50-year-old professor after all!



Tazzygirl - Nov 7, 2005 2:36 am (#2544 of 2971)

I have a correction to make:

In my post (#2542) I said that Quirrel did have a wand- he used it at the end of the PS/SS book to tie Harry up in rope, when they were standing in front of the Mirror of Erised. I am very wrong on that count!

Here is the correct quote: Chapter 17, PS/SS "Quirrel snapped his fingers. Ropes sprang up out of thin air and wrapped themselves tightly around Harry."

I think that answers the question of Quirrel having a wand!!



Ydnam96 - Nov 7, 2005 5:15 am (#2545 of 2971)

That does sort of solve one problem...but if he is capable enough to conjure something both wordless and wandless...why couldn't he attack Harry with a spell instead of touching him?



Mrs. D. - Nov 7, 2005 7:20 am (#2546 of 2971)

I think he wanted the answer from Harry first about where the stone was and a spell might not have worked as well as trying to throttle it out of him. Turns out of course a spell might have been better but who knows, it may have backfired again. Perhaps Voldemort had thought of that.



Tazzygirl - Nov 7, 2005 11:21 am (#2547 of 2971)

But Voldemort didn't tell Quirrel to stop when Quirrel kept getting burned by touching Harry's skin- Voldemort kept pushing him on. I think that would have been the time for Voldemort to make Quirrel use magic to get the stone from Harry- Accio sound familiar? I think Voldemort knew that Harry had the stone, but because of pent up hatred, wanted Quirrel to really hurt Harry physically. Poor Quirrel, all that hard work and all he had to do was say Accio Philosopher's Stone, and the books would have turned out way differently!



Jeremy Tuttle - Nov 7, 2005 8:22 pm (#2548 of 2971)

Harry's "Things To Do" list, summer 1996:

1. Wedding at The Burrow, maybe a double wedding? (Sigh. We can hope.)

2. Visit 4 Privet Drive with Ron and Hermione (Aunt Petunia comes clean?)

3. Visit Godric's Hollow with Ron, Hermione and Hagrid.

4. Visit mum and dad's graves.

5. Bequest from Dumbledore (Pensieve? Silver instrument, perhaps the one DD consulted in OotP? The same one Harry smashed?)

6. Seventeenth birthday, magical protection expires. Consequenses?

7. Receipt of James and Lily's estate. Potter family mansion? with house-elves?

8. Apparition license test at MoM, with Ron.

9. Oh yeah, all those horcruxes.

Harry will be a busy young man this summer!



Liessie - Nov 7, 2005 9:31 pm (#2549 of 2971)

...can I add "10. Visit 12 Grimmauld Place, have a rummage through Sirius'/Kreacher's things and maybe find the whereabouts of the locket" to that list?



Tazzygirl - Nov 7, 2005 9:49 pm (#2550 of 2971)

And ummmm... number 11: Find Voldemort (after horcruxes are all found, obviously) and have the final match!

Harry Potter - Page 3 2134391180

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mona
Mona
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Posts 2551 to 2600

Post  Mona Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:25 am



RoseMorninStar - Nov 7, 2005 9:57 pm (#2551 of 2971)

#12.. The final showdown (and revelations?!) with the Dursleys!!



Seven - Nov 8, 2005 7:00 pm (#2552 of 2971)

#13: Something involving the Department of Mysteries...there's way too much hype about it floating around that needs to get sorted out.

Perhaps not really a Summer chore, but its the one thing above all else thats on my mind at the mo... likely because it wasn't mentioned in HBP. I didn't get a proper fix.



RoseMorninStar - Nov 8, 2005 10:26 pm (#2553 of 2971)

#14 Harry finding out what is so special about his mother's eyes and what Lily and James occupations were.



Soul Mate for Sirius - Nov 9, 2005 1:29 pm (#2554 of 2971)

umm...can I add one?

#15. Find out the truth about Snape and why DD trusted him

-Jenn



Tazzygirl - Nov 9, 2005 1:53 pm (#2555 of 2971)

Good one Jenn!

16. If no double wedding, then Harry and Ginny picking up where they left off...



Finn BV - Nov 9, 2005 2:14 pm (#2556 of 2971)

One busy summer for poor Harry! Hold it guys, he may need to do these things during the year, you know!

6. Seventeenth birthday, magical protection expires. Consequenses? --Jeremy Tuttle

Consequences, but not only. Harry is finally of age and can Apparate by himself, and perform magic, though not necessarily in the presence of Muggles (although the Dursleys may get their fair dose of it… ::evil grin:Smile.



Soul Mate for Sirius - Nov 9, 2005 2:20 pm (#2557 of 2971)

Tazzygirl- I think we could have a double wedding and have Harry and Ginny pick up where they left off. Ginny will only be 16 this summer, and that's kind of young to be married. Perhaps the double wedding will be Bill/Fleur and Ron/Hermione! JM2K!

-Jenn



RoseMorninStar - Nov 9, 2005 3:03 pm (#2558 of 2971)

I think the 'double wedding' that was being thought of would be Bill/Fleur and Lupin/Tonks.



Soul Mate for Sirius - Nov 9, 2005 3:26 pm (#2559 of 2971)

Oh! Opps! RMS, I didn't even think of that! That would make more sense! Hehe!

-Jenn



Tazzygirl - Nov 9, 2005 10:07 pm (#2560 of 2971)

I completely forgot about Tonks and Lupin!!!!! oops!!!! I knew there was something wrong! So- yes, I hope there is a double wedding!!!

And Ron/ Hermione finally get together, and Harry/ Ginny pick up where they left off! There- it's all fixed!!



frogface - Nov 10, 2005 12:09 am (#2561 of 2971)

lol I think Ron and Hermione have a little way to go yet before they can get married! Om that note, Harry is going to encounter Krum in this book (JKR said Krum would be back), will Vicktor be Ron and Hermoine's final hurdle?



Tazzygirl - Nov 10, 2005 1:58 pm (#2562 of 2971)

Uh-oh! I wonder what is going to happen between Krum/Hermione/Ron?



Jeremy Tuttle - Nov 10, 2005 6:35 pm (#2563 of 2971)

I goofed! The "Things to Do" list should be for summer 1997, not summer 1996. I apologize.

The double wedding I had in mind was indeed Bill+Fleur and Remus+Tonks.

My real point in making up this list is that Harry's got many things to do besides searching for and destroying the horcruxes, which is the imperative prerequisite to The Final Showdown.



RoseMorninStar - Nov 10, 2005 8:17 pm (#2564 of 2971)

I think Hermione has made up her mind and she knows who she loves and what she wants, but I don't think Ron is so confident in himself or the relationship. And I don't know how strongly Krum still feels about Hermione or if they are just friends. I think Krum will be helpful in helping Harry find a Horcrux.



Tazzygirl - Nov 10, 2005 11:08 pm (#2565 of 2971)

Krum and Hermione have been writing letters to each other for a while (or at least in one of the books, where Hermione mentions she and Krum exchange letters.) I think Krum might still like Hermione, but Hermione likes Ron more. I think she considers Krum just a friend. How helpful would Krum be? He hasn't really been in any book other than GoF, and he and Harry have only spoken maybe five times to each other. Do you think there are hints that he would help Harry?



RoseMorninStar - Nov 11, 2005 6:15 am (#2566 of 2971)

Yes, Tazzy Girl. JKR has said in interviews that Viktor Krum will make another appearance (in the last book). Voldemort at one time hid in Albania, which is certainly closer to the eastern European country of Bulgaria that Krum is from. So he may be of some help perhaps in finding a Horcrux or something.



Tazzygirl - Nov 11, 2005 11:52 am (#2567 of 2971)

I forgot about what JKR said- I need to pay more attention!! I think Krum helping would be a possibility then... hmmm....



Puck - Nov 12, 2005 9:21 am (#2568 of 2971)

I see Harry more in control of his emotions and very purposeful in book 7. He knows now what he has to do and is ready to face it. Thoughts of "Why me?" are no longer floating inside is head. I see him very matter of fact about things. Of course, he still be angry with Snape, but he'll learn to harness this emotion and use it to his advantage, instead of his downfall.



Solitaire - Nov 12, 2005 10:05 am (#2569 of 2971)

Harry must now see that if he is to hold his own with Snape--and he will surely feel that he must avenge Dumbledore's death--he now MUST master his emotions. It is no longer an option. This is even more critical in his dealings concerning Voldemort. He must be able to keep his business secret from "inquiring minds who want to know"--like Snape and Voldemort.

Will such control of his emotions harden Harry as it has Snape? At first, it might. But if he cannot control his emotions--or at least his reactions to the emotions he is feeling--he is toast, and he must accept this. Dumbledore was certainly a man of strong feelings and emotions. I think this is obvious, and Harry himself saw it. But DD knew how to govern his reactions to what he was feeling and get on with business. He did not allow himself to wallow and get mired in anger and sorrow. He waited until the crisis was over and there was time to grieve. I think that Harry, given time, can do the same. After all, he had the best teacher, didn't he?

Solitaire



Lina - Nov 12, 2005 12:47 pm (#2570 of 2971)

I think that Harry is actually able to sort his priorities. In the Occlumency lessons in OotP, he was showing Snape the corridors, because he wanted to know what they are and why is he seeing that. Snape never found out anything about DA meetings and when he came to Cho, Harry was able to reject him.

So, I believe that he will be able to master Occlumency when it comes to Horcruxes.



Tazzygirl - Nov 12, 2005 1:54 pm (#2571 of 2971)

I think so too Lina! I think he will find someone to help him practice Occlumence (sp?), it is one of his weaknesses. Maybe Lupin knows how to do it? Snape wasn't teaching him to pick through someone's mind, but to block his own mind from others. I think he will definitely get more lessons from someone from the Order... By the way Lina- your Avatar is beautiful!!! (It is better than mine!)



Solitaire - Nov 13, 2005 8:57 am (#2572 of 2971)

If Harry returns to Hogwarts, remember that he will be in his final year and facing his NEWTs. I suspect any "free" time that may exist will be pretty much taken up with hunting and destroying the Horcruxes and facing Voldemort ... and any others who need facing. As he already knows what to do as far as Occlumency is concerned, he must now learn to apply it. Perhaps it's like push-ups: the only way to learn how to do them is to do them.

Solitaire



Tazzygirl - Nov 13, 2005 12:35 pm (#2573 of 2971)

I don't think Harry will return to Hogwarts. I think he will only stay in contact with the Order, and someone in the Order will help him become good at Occlumence. As for the NEWTS, aren't those the test just to see if you qualify for a job? If that is the case, Harry really wouldn't need to take them if he wants to be an Auror. Everyone knows he is pretty good for the job, and he can still be an Auror after killing LV- there are all those Death Eaters that need to be caught, and Harry knows them all, and I think this time, the Death Eaters won't be able to say they were under the Imperius Curse. Harry could be spending a majority of his life going after these DE, especially if they turn to run and hide.



Muggle Doctor - Nov 13, 2005 1:08 pm (#2574 of 2971)

Despite what Harry said about not coming back, I think he will - there is, for one, Dumbledore's portrait to talk to, and he may want its advice.

And a Harry Potter story without any Hogwarts would be... well... not a Harry Potter story (although I do concede he may well spend most of his time away from it).



Solitaire - Nov 13, 2005 1:13 pm (#2575 of 2971)

Actually, I believe he would have to take the NEWTs to become an Auror. Remember McGonagall's question to him in Chapter 9 of HBP: "Now, why haven't you applied to continue with Potions? I thought it was your ambition to become an Auror?" It seems he must pass certain NEWT-level classes if he wishes to become an Auror.

Solitaire



Lina - Nov 13, 2005 1:51 pm (#2576 of 2971)

I must admit that I am surprised how much I have to agree with Solitaire lately, or is it just happening outside of the Snape thread?

What I think is that Harry got enough of the Occlumency lessons, he just need a reason good enough to use Occlumency. I think that whenever he didn't use it, he didn't feel it important enough to hide his thought, or when it comes to the corridors of the MoM he really wanted to show them because he wanted to learn more. I don't think anybody could read anything in his mind about horcruxes unless he wanted them to.

And I must say that I find the coming back to school and taking the NEWT exams too important to be missed. I don't think that JKR would send to the world the message that school is not important. Although, once that he make his exams, I think he might change his mind and become something else instead of an Auror. I don't know what, I just think that it might be something else.



Solitaire - Nov 13, 2005 2:18 pm (#2577 of 2971)

LOL Lina! I agree, too, that once all of the Voldemort business is over (assuming he survives), Harry may decide he has had enough of Dark Wizards and death ... for a while, at least. Perhaps he will take a year or two and play professional Quidditch.

Solitaire



Tazzygirl - Nov 13, 2005 4:55 pm (#2578 of 2971)

What I meant was that Harry wouldn't return to Hogwarts for lessons. He is already really advanced in DADA, and I think he is pretty good in the other subjects (except potions). I think he would come back to see Dumbledore's picture, DD might still be able to help Harry, but other than that, I don't see a reason. Don't get me wrong, school is important, and the last thing JKR wants to do is tell kids its ok to quit school, but, you don't need NEWTS to become a quidditch player, and if you are already well known for DADA, there is no need. What about Fred and George- didn't they quit school (I don't remember them taking their NEWTS)? They now run a successful joke shop. I would love for Harry to go back and take the tests and be at Hogwarts (and Muggle Doctor I do agree that if there is no Hogwarts, then it wouldn't really be a HP story), but I think Harry has so much to do in the last book, he won't have the time to focus on Hogwarts all that much other than DD's portrait. I guess I am thinking like the other books, where Harry is at Hogwarts and has to fight the last week of school or so. And to add the sneaking around to find the horcruxes, Harry really doesn't have time to do what he used to do in the other books. I think Harry was planning to go back to Hogwarts for his seventh year and NEWTS when McGonagall was asking him why he wasn't taking Potions at the beginning of HBP, but after certain events happened at the end of the book, Harry's (and probably McGonagall's) thoughts have changed, and I am pretty sure no one would object to him not going back to school because he does have to focus on LV. All the books are based on a year, and a year is not all that long. I just think Harry won't have time. Maybe after his fight with LV, he will be able to take his NEWTS officially, that way he can officially qualify as an Auror or whatever else he decides.

It's Harry! He is practicing his Apparating for his upcoming test!



RoseMorninStar - Nov 13, 2005 7:56 pm (#2579 of 2971)

I have a feeling that it is possible that things may get so bad in the Wizarding World that Hogwarts may be suspended for a time. I mean, I guess I think school will start, but that their maybe a delay or perhaps a long break when things get really hairy (pun intended). And then N.E.W.T.S. will just be a mention at the end of the book, or that they will have them late.

I think JKR wanted to show (with Fred & George) that school is not for everyone and that those who are most successful in school are not always the most successful in life (and vise versa), but I don't think she would want to make that a pattern for an entire class of students, not to mention end of the year exams at other grade levels.

I think Professor McGonagal will help Harry in any way she can to achieve his (scholastic) goals once he has taken care of what he has to do.



Tazzygirl - Nov 13, 2005 8:01 pm (#2580 of 2971)

McGonnagall told Umbridge that she would personally help Harry in whatever way she could in OotP... I think her word is still there!!



Lina - Nov 14, 2005 4:41 am (#2582 of 2971)

There is another reason why I think he might decide not to become an Auror. I think there should be some major changes in the Ministry for Harry to decide to work there. And I don't believe it will happen. While Fred and George are running their own business, and very well, BTW, I think this might be a good excuse for JKR to show us other possibilities of business careers in the WW.

I don't think that Harry will return to Hogwarts just to have his NEWT exams. I think there will be another reason, maybe related with the horcrux hunting, to have him back there and then attend the lessons too.



Puck - Nov 14, 2005 9:31 am (#2583 of 2971)

Lina, great point! I had never thoughtabout Snape not learning about DA meetings, but only seeing what Harry himself wanted to know more about, possibly hoping Snape would give him a clue.

Harry will be at Hogwarts at some point. Perhaps he will go to classes as a front, so the DE don't find out what he's up to. They might get curious if he's not at Hogwarts.



Tazzygirl - Nov 14, 2005 12:45 pm (#2584 of 2971)

Harry could possibly go back to Hogwarts to put on the fake front- and Hermione not finishing school- ! That just doesn't sound like her... HEY! What if Harry takes the position of DADA teacher? That would be the most perfect job for him. Plus, it is away from the MoM, and he won't have to deal with them, and Hogwarts will still be known as DD's school. It will show that even thought DD is gone, Harry is still "Dumbledore's man through and through."



Detail Seeker - Nov 14, 2005 1:43 pm (#2585 of 2971)

His encounter with Snape at the end of the book should show Harry, that he still has to learn a lot to compete with somebdy, whom he at least now thinks to be another great enemy of his. So, there will be motivation to get back - as soon as he has come to think more about what is coming up. The lack of a base to live will be another argument to return. So, the announcement of a 16-year old not to return to school is easily said but seldom kept. It was somehow in a situation of emotional turmoil, but second thoughts will come - at Privet Drive, he will have them, I guess.

At some point, he will have to tell McGonagall or whomever, who will lead the Order, what he is up to - or Hermione will do it and help will be offered by the Order.

So, I do think, he will return to Hogwarts and be a weekend-Horcrux-hunter.



Lina - Nov 14, 2005 2:45 pm (#2586 of 2971)

I agree with you, Detail Seeker.

Tazzy, I can imagine Harry as a DADA teacher, but I think that JKR said at some interview that Harry will not become a teacher at Hogwarts, nor Ron or Hermionne, but some other their classmate will. There is a thread on that subject on the Forum, so I guess there is a link or a citation of that statement.



Tazzygirl - Nov 14, 2005 2:59 pm (#2587 of 2971)

awwwww- just blow my thought out of the water! LOL It was good while it lasted... I don't listen to the interviews JKR gives, so I am a little in the dark. Oh well. Now I am off to think of a new one! hmmmmmmm......



Wizadora - Nov 17, 2005 6:26 am (#2588 of 2971)

Something struck me last night as I am rereading HBP. When Harry confronts Mundungas about the stolen goods. He is described in a very Snape like manner I think. He is violent, grabs Dung by the throat to the point where Dung turns blue. This is the same Harry that launches himself at sirius to Kill him. Does anyone have any thoughts to this streak of violence? I know that it is rare, so when it happens it really catches my eye. Harry is obviously getting stronger and becoming a man, but it it more than that?



RoseMorninStar - Nov 17, 2005 8:53 pm (#2589 of 2971)

Wizadora, in both of the instances you mention, Harry is emotionally charged. The scene in Hogsmeade.... I think Harry takes it very personally that someone is profiting from Sirius's death. He sees it as very personal and very disrespectful. Harry's pain is so very fresh.

In the instance of Sirius, well, he thinks that he is the person who killed his parents. Talk about an open wound.

While I do not think the violence is 'OK' I think it is very typical of a teen-aged boy. They can be very aggressive. I think it is one of those traits that can be helpful or disasterous. Hopefully Harry will learn to properly channel his aggression (and given his lot in life, being too passive would not be good for his survival) and put that anger to good use.



Lina - Nov 18, 2005 12:47 am (#2590 of 2971)

RoseMorninStar, I agree with you. And you led me to another point - if Harry had never been violent, he wouldn't seem natural. Aggressiveness is part of every human being and learning how to control it is part of growing up. Harry being violent in extreme situations makes him less distant, easier to accept him as a human being and someone alike. If he learns how to control his aggressiveness, then we can try to do it too. Thanks.



RoseMorninStar - Nov 18, 2005 8:06 pm (#2591 of 2971)

Good point Lina! Writers do want their characters to seem 'real' and act 'natural'!



Solitaire - Nov 19, 2005 1:35 am (#2592 of 2971)

I think you are correct, Rose. Even though Harry was always a target for the Dud's physical abuse, he has since been thrust into a world that is rife with violence. The first thing he learns about that world--before his own identity has had time to sink into his brain--is that his parents did not die in a car crash but were brutally murdered. Even scarier, he learns that he was also supposed to die. Talk about being gobsmacked!

Harry soon learns that virtually everyone in possesion of a wand has a potentially lethal weapon in his hand at all times. Think how frightening that would be as he begins to understand that there are still those "at large" in the WW who want him dead. Then, every year since he has entered the magical world, there has been at least one attempt on his life.

By the end of HBP, he has seen several deaths. Quirrell disintegrated under his touch in their confrontation. Even more upsetting, he has been an eye-witness to three murders. Cedric was an innocent young man who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. As far as Sirius is concerned ... while Harry maintains that Snape was partly to blame for his death, I think there is a nagging, guilty feeling (although I'm not sure he has acknowledged it yet) that it was his own fault Sirius was at the DoM. Finally, Harry has now seen Dumbledore--the one person who has run interference between him and death for sixteen years--struck down before his very eyes, by the Snape he already hates and distrusts.

I think Harry's actions and comments seem very realistic in the circumstances, given his age and his perspective on things.

Solitaire



Puck - Nov 19, 2005 1:31 pm (#2593 of 2971)

I don't think Harry will share the information about the Horcruxes with the members of the order -perhaps with Ginny, but not the others. I think he will tell mcGonagal that he has work to finish for DD, but not get into details. He will be allowed to go on weekedns, as the Order are likley to trust him more and treat him more as a grown up. After all, he not only will be of age, but it was he who warned them about Snape and Draco. Harry is bound to be taken seriously.



Solitaire - Nov 19, 2005 6:48 pm (#2594 of 2971)

Dumbledore said to share the info with Ron and Hermione. He didn't mention Ginny. Also, if Harry truly loves Ginny, he may feel that telling her about the Horcruxes could put her in danger. I wonder if either thing will have some bearing on whether or not he does share the info with her.

Solitaire



Puck - Nov 20, 2005 1:37 pm (#2595 of 2971)

I'm not so sure he would share the info with Ginny, but I think he's more likely to tell her than the Order members. If DD had wanted them to know he woulkd have told them himself, and Harry will realize this.



Tazzygirl - Nov 20, 2005 2:39 pm (#2596 of 2971)

I think Ginny kind of has an idea of what Harry has to do, and won't push him into telling her. He said at the end of HBP that basically he needed to break up with her to protect her. She already realized that even though she really wants to know what Harry is doing, she will understand that there has to be a secret. Besides, Ron or Hermione might clue her in a little bit about searching for something but that is all. I think Harry will only talk about the Horcruxes with Ron and Hermione. He wasn't about to tell McGonnagall or anyone else. I think Ginny shouldn't know- if Snape is a DE, and since he still hates Harry, he would tell LV to go after Ginny to bring Harry down.



K Stahl - Nov 22, 2005 4:48 pm (#2597 of 2971)

Perhaps Harry's violent reaction in certain specific instances is due to a strong sense of justice. He also has seen the ministry up close. He knows that he can expect no justice from that quarter. His youth and feelings of impotence in extreme circumstances make his resorting to violence quite understandable. He has yet to gain the contextual experience in life to enable him to measure the appropriateness of a violent response.

P.s. Harry did not witness Quirrel's death. That was a movie modification. Harry was unconscious when Quirrel died.



frogface - Nov 23, 2005 1:37 am (#2598 of 2971)

Was it even Harry that killed him? I always thought that Quirrell died because Voldemort left his body. As if his system had become too dependant on being possesed that the shock of having Voldemort leave his body killed him....or something. Have I been making a stupid assumption for many years? :s



Ydnam96 - Nov 23, 2005 10:02 pm (#2599 of 2971)

No, Frogface, I think you are correct. I think that Harry did hurt him, but I think what killed him was VM leaving.



Puck - Nov 27, 2005 8:57 am (#2600 of 2971)

That is how I saw it, too. Besides, any harm Harry did do was in self defense. He certainly didn't want to kill anyone.

Harry Potter - Page 3 2134391180

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mona
Mona
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Posts 2601 to 2650

Post  Mona Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:57 am



Madame Kulich - Dec 12, 2005 3:47 pm (#2601 of 2971)

I just saw "The Soup" on E! and the host said the person who reads the books for the audio books said JK would kill Harry Potter in the last book. I don't know if he was talking about Jim Dale or the other guy, but has anyone else heard this? Is it true? Say it ain't so!



Solitaire - Dec 12, 2005 4:22 pm (#2602 of 2971)

Since I cannot believe Jo would give out such information, I think whoever made the statement was talking through his hat. Surely someone as savvy as Jo would have put some sort of confidentiality clause in the contracts of those who are privy to critical information about the books--assuming anyone is.

I should think that anyone who decides to spill Harry's fate to the media will very likely find himself facing a very large and competent legal team whose sole aim is to crush him like a bug. I can't think that any talk show host is able to offer such a person greater incentives to talk than Jo can offer to keep her secrets.

Solitaire



RoseMorninStar - Dec 13, 2005 12:53 am (#2603 of 2971)

I seriously cannot imagine Harry dying in the last book unless a time turner is involved-which, come to think of it, could be the case.



The giant squid - Dec 13, 2005 2:25 am (#2604 of 2971)

Considering the legal crack-down on the bookstore that accidentally sold some books early, I can't imagine what would happen to someone violating a NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement)...he'd best be preparing htat fake moustache & planning the trip to Bolivia!



frogface - Dec 13, 2005 3:18 am (#2605 of 2971)

I think it was just the tabloids twisting people's words as usual. To me it sounded like Jim Dale was just making a prediction. As the giant squid says, it would be rather stupid of him to break the NDA, and what would he have to gain from causing a plot leak anyway?



Madame Pomfrey - Dec 13, 2005 10:14 am (#2606 of 2971)

I heard that too.I don't think Jo would tell anyone that information.However on mugglenet I read that Robbie Coltraine said that he asked JKR not to tell him what happens in book 7 just what happens to Hagrid since it will help him in his acting.Gee,I hope it isn't true.I think I'd be totally disappointed if Harry dies no matter how well it's written.



Solitaire - Dec 13, 2005 12:29 pm (#2607 of 2971)

While I believe that Harry's death is a distinct possibility, I, too, will be very disappointed if it happens.

Solitaire



haymoni - Dec 13, 2005 12:50 pm (#2608 of 2971)

I can't believe she'd kill him off after all she's put him through.

Harry deserves better.



Honour - Dec 13, 2005 12:54 pm (#2609 of 2971)

Me too! Too many people have sacrificed themselves for Harry, it would be such a waste! Whilst researching my own family history I came across story after story of how ancestors fought so hard against all manner of adversity or sacrificed so much for the betterment of their children that I grew up knowing that I was a beloved child and this is the knowledge that I have passed on to my children, that they too are beloved. This is one of the themes my children liked about the Harry Potter Series, that he is well loved by the many people who have been a part of his life. Even though they have gone, the love these people felt will live with him all his life. To kill Harry off without him passing on his story to his own children and in turn the children reading would be such a wasted opportunity...



Saracene - Dec 13, 2005 5:30 pm (#2610 of 2971)

I don't believe that Harry will die either. What would be the point of showing him growing up, maturing and learning valuable lessons throughout six books and having people die for his sake, only to have him killed at the very end? Boo on that.



bella - Dec 13, 2005 11:11 pm (#2611 of 2971)

Although I think there is ultimately the possibility that Harry may die, the quote in question, to me certainly didn't state it. I also agree that the entire growing up sequence would seem to be for nothing if he does.



sstabeler - Dec 15, 2005 9:51 am (#2612 of 2971)

I doubt that harry will die in book seven, as although she has said she has no plans to write a book 8, she will want to leave the possibility open, as preventing sequels is a massive literary mistake, so she will want to leave the potential for sequels open, so that she can still write more books on Harry Potter if she wants to.



frogface - Dec 16, 2005 3:20 am (#2613 of 2971)

I don't agree with that at all. JKR has had this whole thing planned from the beginning, and she wouldn't change her plans just for the sake of a sequel. And even if she does chose to write more stories about this world, who says it has to be a continuation of Harry's story? Anyway why would preventing the opportunity for a sequel be a literary mistake? In my opinion its far better to finish while you're ahead. I'd prefer that to say, JKR writing hundreds of Harry stories until the interest just dies out, I think that happens far too much in media as it is.

Anyway, from the sound of things, she seems to be more interested in writing some of her other stuff once she's finished book 7.



Solitaire - Dec 16, 2005 1:20 pm (#2614 of 2971)

I don't think anyone is suggesting Jo write until interest wanes. By the time that happens, the stories are usually worthless anyway. In fact, I would expect her to stop at the seventh book and take a well-deserved breather ... or perhaps pursue different kinds of writing. Even if she were planning to write more Harry books, I should think a change of pace would be necessary just to get some perspective and "germinate" new story ideas.

What I believe so many of us would like is the possibility of a Harry sequel down the road, perhaps in five or ten years. I know I would enjoy a follow-up now and then.

As to prequels, I would love to have some really distant backstory. I would like to know exactly what happened among the original founders of Hogwarts, wouldn't you? Exactly what happened when Slytherin left? Where did he go and what did he do afterwards? What happened to the other three founders? Now, there would be some stories. Or perhaps she could actually write Hogwarts: A History.

Solitaire



Aqualu Nifey - Dec 16, 2005 4:33 pm (#2615 of 2971)

Are you guys kidding? She's already planned six sequels to her original Philosopher's Stone. Six sequels seems like quite enough for me. And, no dungbombs please, but I'm kinda, half-way hoping to run through a big box of tissues when Harry dies. I think it would be an excellent way to end the series, with the hero dying and the villain living to destroy the world.

*Runs from dungbombs*



TomProffitt - Dec 16, 2005 5:51 pm (#2616 of 2971)

I don't expect Harry's death as such, but from a literary perspective I think it wouldn't be all bad, really. I think of two stories from American military history as I write this.

Audie Murphy is the most decorated soldier the US Army has ever had. He won every medal for valor (some of them twice) that the Army offers. Look him up and read his Medal of Honor citation, truly amazing. He then was, more or less, unemployed and homeless for five years after WWII living in YMCAs before another veteran found him in Hollywood and made him a movie star.

But through it all, Murphy was tortured by what he did and saw before the age of 21 (his WWII experience) and by the pain of his wounds. He was unable to keep a marriage together or hang onto his acting money and died tragically at a relatively young age (mid-50s in a plane crash). Hardly a fitting ending for a great hero.

I read the autobiography of another American soldier in Viet Nam. (Michael Lee Lanning) He wasn't a particularly great soldier, but one thing he said struck me as an insightful truth. At the age of 22 he would leave Viet Nam and the most significant thing that would ever happen in his life.

That's why I'm okay with Harry dying in book 7. At age 17 the most important things he will ever do in his life will be accomplished.

How can Jo write another Harry book after the final destruction of Lord Voldemort? Anything else he would do would be either anti-climatic or contrived.

I'm not wishing Harry death or anything, but book 8, Harry Potter and the Capture of Crabbe and Goyle just ain't the ticket for me.



Tazzygirl - Dec 16, 2005 7:32 pm (#2617 of 2971)

All IMO: If Harry has to die, he has to take LV with him. I don't think I could be a Potter fan any longer if Harry is the only one that dies. I think Harry will die taking LV out with him, because it seems the only people he truly loves and misses desperately are his parents and Sirius. There is a part of me that wishes he would survive the fight because of Ginny, Ron, and Hermione though!

I also think that there shouldn't be any other Potter books created, because the series will be finished, and there really is no point in dragging it out. JKR said she would have an epilogue at the end of book 7, so I think that will satisfy my curiosity of the futures of the characters!



Madame Pomfrey - Dec 17, 2005 6:13 am (#2618 of 2971)

Aqualu..Boo on that.I'll refrain from using dungbombs. If Harry must die it has to be for the good of the wizarding world or why else would Jo sacrifice him? I agree that if Harry dies(which I don't think he will) Voldemort goes with him.As for Sequels,Hogwarts A History sounds good to me.



Muggle Doctor - Dec 18, 2005 1:06 pm (#2619 of 2971)

I'd heard that the "Eighth Harry book", if it's ever written, was going to be some sort of encyclopaedia or concordance - not quite Hogwarts, a History, but at least something that will put all the Wizarding World's events into context, and - coming out long after the last book - able to contain short biographies without 'spoilers' on all the characters, that are firmly rooted in canon fact (Sirius' death, Dumbledore's death, Snape's loyalties, the various 'ships), now that the events are over.



cindysuewho45 - Dec 20, 2005 11:44 pm (#2620 of 2971)

Hi all, From what I have read about JKR, she may write a Harry Potter encyclopaedia. However I feel that book 7 will be the last Harry Potter story. Just the number 7 its self may be where she wanted to end it all. Alot of 7's in her books. When Harry looks in the Mirror of Erised he sees his deepest most desperate desire of his heart. To have known his family. So I was thinking that in the last chapter of book 7. Harry could end up with a family of his own, if she shows the story that far out in the last chapter. There would be no need for more books. Do not get me wrong, I love all her books and would like to see Harry Potter book 15. But I just do not see that happening. Also I was thinking that at the end of book 7 there may be some backstory on the founders. Maybe all the houses will have to come together to help take down LV's DE's there at Hogwarts and we will get some info. on the founders then. Just some thoughts, Cindysuewho



Ydnam96 - Dec 23, 2005 8:52 am (#2621 of 2971)

I think it is possible Harry could die. I would be sad, but not devestated as I see it as a viable literary option, and quite frankly, a realistic ending to what has been fairly "realistic" fantasy.

I've thought and thought about what Harry would do with his life after Voldemort. What would he do? I mean, he'll be 17 which is very young. He'll have accomplished his "life goal" and he'll have what, at least 50 or 60 (if not more) years to live out in his life.

What is an appropriate existence after that? I don't see him as Minister. I don't see him as a professor. An Auror seems like an okay ending. But...I'm not sure. Maybe just a rich philanthropist (spelling?). I could see him, down the line, being Head Master. But that's not a job I see him doing at 18. Or he could start his own school...or go into business with the Weasley twins?

I'm not sure. Not that you should kill off a character just because there doesn't seem to be a life after the books that fits...



Alidrew - Dec 23, 2005 10:44 am (#2622 of 2971)

I was rereading CoS last night and thinking... Forgive me if this has been discussed and just point me in the right direction. Are we SURE that the spell Harry was hit with is AK? Who was there to say specifically that was what it is. We don't know the spell for making a horcrux, but what if it shoots a green light as well? I was thinking about this because if Harry has part of Voldemort's soul, it would explain the parseltongue, knowing what V is feeling, thinking, etc. And would assure Voldemort that Harry wouldn't be able to kill him. Any thoughts or places to direct me to debunk my post?



TomProffitt - Dec 23, 2005 11:11 am (#2623 of 2971)

Are we SURE that the spell Harry was hit with is AK? --- Alidrew

I don't think we can ever be 100% certain about anything in the series, but in this instance I'm about as close to that as you can get. From statements by JKR, DD, and not-Moody Crouch, Jr, I think there is reason to feel conclusively that it was an AK.



Alidrew - Dec 23, 2005 2:59 pm (#2624 of 2971)

Ok, that sounds about as clear as it can get. Thanks!



Jake C - Dec 23, 2005 4:09 pm (#2625 of 2971)

Personally, I think Harry will be killed unfortunately. So many bad things have happened to Harry the main things being that so many people want to kill him, and what has he ever done to hurt any of them. He never chose that life so this has to seriously damage him im afraid to say. I think JKR will kill harry because it is his wish to die, we all know that his hearts deepest desire is to know and be with his parents and with his parents, sirius, dumbldore and maybe more people dead (in book 7) he has hardly anyone close to him actually close to him (that may sound a bit confusing). I think that at the end whether he kills Voldemort or not, he will want to die not out of depression, self-pity, or self-loathing but because he just wants to be with his parents and those that love him. What do you think?



Saracene - Dec 23, 2005 7:18 pm (#2626 of 2971)

What Harry is going to do after defeating Voldemort?

I think he'd be quite happy to live out the rest of his life in peace and quiet raising a dozen red-haired green-eyed kids, Smile



Aqualu Nifey - Dec 23, 2005 7:25 pm (#2627 of 2971)

Oh, good, Jake, I'm not the only one. I love Harry, but the end of Book VII is his time to go.



TomProffitt - Dec 24, 2005 4:30 am (#2628 of 2971)

Oh, good, Jake, I'm not the only one. I love Harry, but the end of Book VII is his time to go. --- Aqualu Nifey

I wouldn't be surprised if Harry died, but it's not a sure thing. What is sure is that Harry's usefulness as a literary character will be over.



Jake C - Dec 24, 2005 5:18 am (#2629 of 2971)

# sniff sniff* I know...



Solitaire - Dec 24, 2005 5:59 pm (#2630 of 2971)

Surely Voldemort isn't the last evil Wizard who will ever live. As long as there are power-hungry, sadistic Wizards--and surely the WW mirrors the Muggle world, with its evil rulers--the potential will exist for another Voldemort or Grindelwald, won't it? It seems to me there would be plenty to keep Harry busy. Besides, I'd like to see Harry have a chance to play professional Quidditch, wouldn't you?

Solitaire



TomProffitt - Dec 25, 2005 8:38 am (#2631 of 2971)

I guess what I'm saying, Soli, is that after this series, anything Rowling did with Harry would be anti-climatic for the character. I don't see why she couldn't continue with other characters as the lead and allow us to learn about Harry second hand as it were. But, I think Harry as the main character will be over and should be.



Solitaire - Dec 25, 2005 8:52 am (#2632 of 2971)

I can see that, Tom. Then again, I suppose many probably thought that anything Dumbledore might do following his defeat of Grindelwald would have to be anticlimactic, too. Little did they know what "life with Harry" would hold in store for him ...

I would agree, though, that it would be interesting to follow the lives of other interesting but less "featured" characters--particularly the twins (if they survive) and Neville--and see how their lives develop.

Solitaire



Puck - Dec 26, 2005 10:58 am (#2633 of 2971)

Harry Potter you just saved the world, what are you going to do now?

I think the department of mysteries would take him on. Seems like a good fit.



Ydnam96 - Dec 26, 2005 7:58 pm (#2634 of 2971)

Puck, you mean he's not going to Disney World??

I think the DOM would be a good fit. He would make a good Unspeakable. (mostly because none of us are really sure what they do).



Aqualu Nifey - Dec 27, 2005 10:49 am (#2635 of 2971)

Yes, but what would he DO in the department of mysteries?



Ydnam96 - Dec 27, 2005 11:09 am (#2636 of 2971)

Maybe he could write a book on how to destroy dark lords, how do deal with horcruxes, and a book on elementary defense aganist the dark arts? Hermione could be his editor.

That of course would not be within th DOM. He could study the stuff behind that door that no one can open...although he doesn't seem the studying type. For that matter he doesn't seem the book writing type either.

Hmmm...He could simply go into business with Fred and George. A nice fun occupation after ridding the world of the Dark Lord. Or he could spend the rest of his life trying to remove the portrait of Mrs. Black from the wall.



Solitaire - Dec 27, 2005 1:22 pm (#2637 of 2971)

He loves flying and Quidditch. So does Ginny. Perhaps they will marry and start another professional Quidditch team!

Solitaire



Aqualu Nifey - Dec 27, 2005 7:06 pm (#2638 of 2971)

While all of this seems like fun, it seems horribly unlikely. I don't think he will be doing much of anything after his climactic battle with the Dark Lord.



Puck - Dec 27, 2005 7:56 pm (#2639 of 2971)

I think the point of him working in the DOM is that nobody would really know what he does. He has to do something if he survives. I mean, he'll only be turning 18 at the end of book seven, a bit too young to retire.



Ydnam96 - Dec 28, 2005 12:55 am (#2640 of 2971)

Here's an idea: maybe Ginny works as an Auror and Harry is a stay at home dad who coaches a little league quittich team.



The giant squid - Dec 28, 2005 1:52 am (#2641 of 2971)

The point, though, is that once he's bested Voldemort what could he do that's worth writing another book about? Everything that's been mentioned so far are things Harry could do, but they'd all fit into an epilogue, a paragraph or two right before the "happily ever after". I want Harry to live through all this (hopeless romantic & all) but I doubt JKR will ever write another book about him.

Of course there's always "The Lupin Diaries" or "Tales from The Hog's Head"...

--Mike



Honour - Dec 28, 2005 1:58 am (#2642 of 2971)

Like someone suggested, there will always be evil wizards, in time, we may revisit the WW and find that Harry has taken on a role similar to Dumbledore, and is mentoring another young wizard or witch? ... and our story begins again ... Smile



Lina - Dec 28, 2005 4:27 am (#2643 of 2971)

I agree with you, Mike, that whatever Harry is going to do after the end of Voldemort, can fit into an epilogue. Yet, I find it interesting to think about what could it be. What bothers me is that the idea to become an Auror was suggested by fake Moody. I know he admires and respects Tonks but I can't see him working for the Ministry. I think that this is the career he is going to give up on. As Solitaire said, he loves flying and that is something that he is really good at, so I see him as a professional Quiddich player. Maybe in the same team with Oliver Wood? I think he will want and going to live a normal life after Voldemort is gone.



Solitaire - Dec 28, 2005 4:41 am (#2644 of 2971)

If he survives, Harry needs to do something that brings him utter joy and a sense of freedom and normalcy--for a time, at least. He has never really had that. Before he learned his true identity and destiny, Harry knew no joy at all at the hands of the Dursleys. Ever since learning who he is, his life has been in danger, and even his pleasures have been tainted by this knowledge. He has even lost two of the most important people he only recently found.

If he survives the battle with Voldemort, Harry needs a chance to simply live and breathe and fly without always watching over his shoulder and around every corner ... to wake up in the morning without feeling this heavy weight in his chest. I, for one, hope Jo gives him that chance.

Solitaire



haymoni - Dec 28, 2005 6:12 am (#2645 of 2971)

I think Harry has lost all respect for The Ministry. If he has money from his parents and money from Sirius, he may become a Lucius who doesn't seem to really HAVE a job.

Maybe he will be on the Board of Governors or maybe he'll OWN a Quidditch team.

Or maybe he will have 12 children and be the Minister of Magic.



Puck - Dec 28, 2005 6:41 am (#2646 of 2971)

I can't see Harry not working. He'd be bored. Even at age 11 he found himself a "mission". He may think he wants normal, but but he craves in anonimity. That's why I think Unspeakable is perfect for him. He'll have his adventures without people talking about him all the time.



Soul Search - Dec 28, 2005 7:05 am (#2647 of 2971)

Once he defeats Voldemort, Harry will have led a very interesting life. What's that curse used in some places ... "may your life be exciting." Harry deserves a boring life, at least for a while.

JKR has come up with Voldemort, a most evil character. Maybe if we help her come up with an evil to top Voldemort, she will have a reason to call Harry out of his boring life and write more books. Harry might appreciate it; he is not a character that would enjoy boredom for too long.



haymoni - Dec 28, 2005 7:08 am (#2648 of 2971)

Harry craves a normal life - how many times have we heard him say that he wanted to be like everyone else, he doesn't want to know what he knows, etc.?

If he doesn't return to Hogwarts for school, he may have to go back and finish his last year with Ginny. That may not be too bad.



cindysuewho45 - Dec 28, 2005 2:05 pm (#2649 of 2971)

Hi all, I feel Harry will have alot to live for after LV is gone. Harry has always wanted a normal life. He could be a great Auror or work on or with a professional Quidditch team. Harry wants peace, joy, love, fun, family and adventure in his life.And after he defenting LV, I think Ginny will help him find all of this. Harry could get the life he has always wanted I hope. I feel like LV is something Harry has to overcome. And that after that, he can have the adventure of love, kids and seeing the world! And a great job would help with that, he has all the $ he needs. So the sky is the limit. Cindysuewho



Alidrew - Dec 29, 2005 3:15 pm (#2650 of 2971)

I think Harry would be a great headmaster at Hogwarts. He knows a whole lot about rule breaking, secret passageways, etc. He is Dumbledore's man, so following in his footsteps would be logical. Ginny could teach charms and Neville can teach Herbology...

Harry Potter - Page 3 2134391180

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mona
Mona
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Posts 2651 to 2700

Post  Mona Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:00 am



cindysuewho45 - Dec 31, 2005 9:28 am (#2651 of 2971)

Hi all, I think that JKR said that Harry will not be a teacher. But I also like the thought of Neville being a Herbology teacher.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 5, 2006 9:05 am (#2652 of 2971)

Perhaps I am reading into this too much, or the fact that Harry will have come of age by Book 7 and is in a highly charged situation may change things, but there may be a clue here: (I bolded the part I feel empahsizes my point)

MA: There are a lot of intense loyalty and bravery issues that are really tied to self-sacrifice — specifically in book three, “You should have died rather than betray your friends.” And then, there's a ton of that throughout. That’s a pretty intense message to pass to, say, an 8-year-old, or a 10-year-old, who is reading the book, saying we should die for our friends.

JKR: Obviously I imagine it in the context of a very highly charged situation. God forbid — I hope that in the general run of things, an 8-year-old would not be required to die for anyone, but we're talking here about a fully grown man who was in, what I consider to be, a war situation. This was a full-fledged war situation. I think the question really is do you, as readers, believe that Sirius would have died? Because Sirius is saying that.



Esther Rose - Jan 9, 2006 10:55 am (#2653 of 2971)

Here is a question. Just how BAD is Harry at Legilimency? I used to think that he was terrible at it. But now I am not so sure. If Snape is as good at Occlumency as he says he is, would Harry have gotten in to Snape's mind as much as he did? Would Snape bother to put his worst memory into the Pensieve? Would Dumbledore have spent an entire year deliberately not looking into Harry's eyes? Or was Harry performing legilimency via Voldemort in some twisted way?

Other than that one moment in time we do not see Harry perform Legilimency on anyone else.... or do we? I don't have my books with me at the moment.



haymoni - Jan 9, 2006 11:11 am (#2654 of 2971)

I don't think we have.

I think Dudley and Petunia would make excellent victims.



Puck - Jan 9, 2006 7:07 pm (#2655 of 2971)

Thing is, Harry was never really attempting Legilimency. He was supposed to be trying Occlumency and accidently got into Snape's mind. I imagine he may be quite good if he ever made a real attempt.



Aqualu Nifey - Jan 9, 2006 8:45 pm (#2656 of 2971)

I think Dudley and Petunia would make excellent victims. - haymoni

Hee, hee! So that's the REAL reason that he has to go to Aunt Petunia's house one last time. Force them to sit there and bring up their most embarassing moments. =D



haymoni - Jan 10, 2006 5:07 am (#2657 of 2971)

I just want Pet to pay for putting that child in a closet. Dumbledore was VERY gracious as far as I'm concerned and I think Harry should get some satisfaction in making them squirm a bit.

But only after he gets all the answers to our questions out of Pet and only after we find out what Dudley experienced while being demented.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 10, 2006 5:28 am (#2658 of 2971)

I just want Pet to pay for putting that child in a closet. haymoni

But think about it, haymoni. Dudley is their prize.



Solitaire - Jan 10, 2006 6:48 am (#2659 of 2971)

Some prize, the Dudster! LOL Actually, I think Harry forcing her to give him some truthful info on his mother, in particular, would make Pet squirm. As for Uncle Vernon ... I consider him a waste of time. What he deserves at Harry's hand is probably not legal anyway. Hopefully, Harry can be satisfied with something as innocuously annoying as bombarding him with owls or sending Dobby to talk to him about something at really inopportune moments--like dinner with the boss--for the rest of his life ... and then watching him squirm to explain it away. (OKay, so I have a mischievous streak!)

Solitaire



mike miller - Jan 10, 2006 7:15 am (#2660 of 2971)

I think it was the fact that Snape was teaching Harry that had the greatest influence on how well Harry did at Occlumency. Based on events, both Harry getting into Snape's and Voldemort's minds, I think it's safe to say Harry is a very gifted Legilimens.

I think Esther Rose is right in pointing out that Snape put memories "away" from Harry during their sessions indicating that he is aware of Harry's potential. This fact coupled with Snape's comments regarding Harry's abilities in HBP is one point for Snape still being on the "Good" side (but that belong's on the Snape thread).

I've often put forth the idea that in the final confrontation with Voldemort, Harry will place a thought in Voldemort's mind reversing the situation from OotP giving Harry the advantage. We will likely see Harry's skill's and power come to their full flowering in book 7 as he deals with the challenges set before him. We should not be surprised by his skill, only the time it has taken him to realize of what he is capable.



Solitaire - Jan 10, 2006 7:19 am (#2661 of 2971)

We should not be surprised by his skill, only the time it has taken him to realize of what he is capable.

I tend to agree. While I know there are some who seem to feel that Harry is not particularly gifted--that all or most of his abilities come from Voldemort--I disagree. With two talented wizards like his parents, it seems natural that Harry would have plenty of gifts and abilities in his own right.

Solitaire



Soul Search - Jan 10, 2006 7:19 am (#2662 of 2971)

Tut, tut. You all are being much too limited for what the Dursleys deserve.

Harry saves them all, and they become indebted to him.

Petunia and Vernon see the true Dudley. They realize that, of the two boys, Harry is by far the better one.

Harry helps a bunch of neighborhood ten-year olds beat the crap out of Dudley and his gang.

Harry pays them back, in wizard gold, for all it cost them to have him at #4 Privet Drive. (Not that much, anyway.)

Aunt Marge realizes that Dudley was in it only for the money she gave him. Ripper bites them all; has to be sent to a mean dogs home.

After his birthday, Harry leaves and they never see him again.



haymoni - Jan 10, 2006 8:24 am (#2663 of 2971)

Oh, I think Harry will be more generous than that.

After he leaves them, every Christmas he will send a hanger, some old socks, a toothpick, a kleenex and - what was it? - a five-pence?



Snuffles - Jan 10, 2006 8:29 am (#2664 of 2971)

Now now haymoni, lets not be tight! it was a fifty pence piece!



haymoni - Jan 10, 2006 8:34 am (#2665 of 2971)

Thanks for the correction!

Did I forget anything? I was going to add the orange puff-ball sweater, but Harry never really received that, since it kept shrinking.



Snuffles - Jan 10, 2006 8:36 am (#2666 of 2971)

Don't forget the school outfit pet would have made him wear if he had been going to the local comp! Dyed grey and made Harry think of elephant skin! Bad bad Pet!!!



Soul Search - Jan 10, 2006 9:52 am (#2667 of 2971)

Good one, haymoni. I think I like this list. I have added yours and re-posted the list. Any other ideas?

Tut, tut. You all are being much too limited for what the Dursleys deserve.

Harry saves them all, and they become indebted to him.

Petunia and Vernon see the true Dudley. They realize that, of the two boys, Harry is by far the better one.

Harry helps a bunch of neighborhood ten-year olds beat the crap out of Dudley and his gang.

Harry pays them back, in wizard gold, for all it cost them to have him at #4 Privet Drive. (Not that much, anyway.)

Aunt Marge realizes that Dudley was in it only for the money she gave him. Ripper bites them all; has to be sent to a mean dogs home.

After his birthday, Harry leaves and they never see him again.

After he leaves them, every Christmas he will send a hanger, some old socks, a toothpick, a kleenex and - what was it? - a five-pence? (haymoni) Now now haymoni, lets not be tight! it was a fifty pence piece! (Snuffles)



haymoni - Jan 10, 2006 10:08 am (#2668 of 2971)

I just want Harry to have some real happiness.

He's a wizard, but he's the Chosen One.

He gets the offer to live with Sirius, but Sirius has to go into hiding.

He finds family, but his godfather dies.

He finds love, but he has this pesky Horcrux chase to deal with.

JKR better have a BIG reward for him and it had best not be putting him out of his misery by killing him off.



Solitaire - Jan 10, 2006 12:26 pm (#2669 of 2971)

I think maybe he should send Kreacher for a few days each year ... with Dobby to supervise, of course! hehe

Solitaire



haymoni - Jan 10, 2006 12:56 pm (#2670 of 2971)

He could leave Kreacher in the middle of Pet's living room with a giant bow tied onto one of his ears with the orders not to leave until Harry gives the OK.



J Hood - Jan 10, 2006 3:34 pm (#2671 of 2971)

After 2 hours of reading I have finally caught up. Quick question, people are thinking Harry is going to die because his greatest desire is to be with his parents. Do you really think that is his greatest desire now? We have to remember that when he was looking into the mirror, it was Christmas time of his first year, he had no family, he was friends with Ron but he had just became friends with Hermione, and other then quidditch he had nothing else really going for him. I could easily see his greatest desire being something different now. I agree with Cindywho when she says that he may still have the desire of family, but now it may be his own with Ginny as his wife and a bushel of kids. Which would be a reason to live.

I also think that he will want a simple life after Voldemort. After defeating Voldy, something quiet will be right up his alley. That is why I say he does something that doesn't involve chasing death eaters or the next bad wizard, but instead reopen the ice cream shop and live happily ever after.

Basically I'd be pretty upset if his only happiness was the few weeks he dated Ginny while the rest of his life was pretty depressing. Even if he dies as a self sacrifice for the Wizarding World it doesn't seem very fair. His parents were sacrificed for the WW, his childhood at the Dursley's was sacrificed for the WW, His time at Hogwarts has been basically sacrificed for the WW and now he has to die for them too? JK owes him more then that.

However this is all JM2K.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 10, 2006 3:37 pm (#2672 of 2971)

Harry should push Kreacher through the veil with a note to Sirius tied to his leg.



haymoni - Jan 10, 2006 8:04 pm (#2673 of 2971)

No - Kreacher should get HIS heart's desire - a plaque on the wall with his head firmly fixed to it.



Solitaire - Jan 11, 2006 12:54 am (#2674 of 2971)

LOL Haymoni, that one wins!



haymoni - Jan 11, 2006 5:10 am (#2675 of 2971)

Maybe it could hang at Pet's house though! Hah!



Solitaire - Jan 11, 2006 6:58 am (#2676 of 2971)

Perfect! Seriously, though, I can't help feeling that Kreacher is going to play some role--either for good or for bad--in the final showdown between Harry and Voldemort. He is evil and manipulative, and I look for him to help lead (or attempt to lead) Harry into a trap, as he did before.

Solitaire



HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 11, 2006 7:27 am (#2677 of 2971)

I am expecting it to backfire, though. Bear with me . . . Kreacher revealed Harry's fondness for Sirius which lead to Big V luring Harry to the MoM. This was all in an attempt to retrieve the prophecy for himself. But what happened . . . it was smashed and Big V now was left with nothing and no way of knowing the end of the prophecy (it almost killed him and caused him excruciating pain - he doesn't want to go through that again). Harry heard it - Big V didn't. I'd say the overall plan (all pain aside) backfired. Evil only gets one so far.



Solitaire - Jan 11, 2006 10:51 am (#2678 of 2971)

You are probably correct, HH ... but I wouldn't put it past him to try and get Harry into trouble again.

Solitaire



Aqualu Nifey - Jan 11, 2006 6:07 pm (#2679 of 2971)

I think Kreacher has served his main role, telling Harry that Sirius wasn't in. He can't do that anymore, anyway, because he is Harry's own elf.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 11, 2006 6:11 pm (#2680 of 2971)

No, but Harry shouted "Get out of it" to Kreacher and perhaps he has taken it literally (as when Sirius shouted 'get out') and will be off trying to make trouble for him, as Solitaire stated.



Lina - Jan 12, 2006 5:40 am (#2681 of 2971)

I'd like to notice that Harry entered Snape's memory at the moment that he did the "Protego" charm. This charm just reversed the aim of Snape's charm and I don't think it is saying too much about Harry's Legilimency abilities. It shows the strength of Snape's Legilimency and the strength of Harry's protecting magic. While about Harry's connection with Voldemort, I don't think that it is something that either of them planned. So, I don't think that those two situations can be used to prove Harry's ability to read minds.

I do think, though, that he might learn to use the connection with Voldemort in his advantage.

I agree with you, J Hood, that the deepest desire of his hearth might become something else now.

I think Harry might set Kreacher free once that Voldemort will be defeated. And there is a great possibility that Bella would mot be alive any more at that moment and Kreacher would be very unhappy being free.



Solitaire - Jan 12, 2006 7:06 am (#2682 of 2971)

Kreacher still loved Narcissa. I do not know that it would ever be a good idea to free him, as long as any current or former DEs roam the earth, Voldemort or not. But that is just my feeling ...

About Harry, Legilimency, and Occlumency ... It is difficult for me to accurately judge Harry's ability as a Legilimens or Occlumens, given Snape as his Occlumency teacher. The animosity between them is so deeply rooted--the hatred of each for the other is so strong--that neither of them is able to put it aside and get down to the business at hand. It is unfortunate that Harry had to attempt to learn this all-important skill from someone as nasty and vindictive as Snape and at such a painful and disorienting time in his life.

When Harry has had time to consider things with a clearer head and heart--and perhaps talk them over with Ron and Hermione--he may begin arrive at some startling realizations. For example, if the HBP (Snape) was so right about his potions and the spells he wrote in the potions book, then perhaps other things he has said and attempted to teach Harry over the years, however badly, should be re-examined.

Perhaps Harry will begin to think about Occlumency and Legilimency as they concerned Draco and Snape. Harry has the tools; now he must learn to use them. Hermione already understands the concept and importance of Occlumency. Perhaps she might be able to help Harry work on it ... who knows? As to Legilimency, he needs only to apply himself in practice with his friends to find out if he truly possesses that gift or not. I suppose the "raids" into Voldemort's mind may have been too frightening, though, to make him feel any curiosity about pursuing Legilimency further, even with someone else. Still, I would not write Harry off just yet as far as these "tools" are concerned ...

BTW, Lina, I love your avatar.

Solitaire



mike miller - Jan 12, 2006 8:27 am (#2683 of 2971)

The fact that Harry has unintentionally entered both Snape's and Voldemort's minds leads me to believe there is an untapped skill waiting to be unleashed. Solitaire is right in that Harry needs to re-examine those mental skills in light of how usefull they may be. Those who are skilled (Voldemort, Dumbledore and Snape) have been able to accomplish many things thanks to those skills.



Lina - Jan 12, 2006 2:46 pm (#2684 of 2971)

I agree with both of you that Harry might found out that he might be good either in Occlumency (although DD doesn't think so and seems not to bother any more about it) or Legilimency. What I'm saying is that we have yet no clue or even less the proof that he is. We do not have the proof that he isn't neither, that's true. We just can not know it until we see what is going to happen next. I just think that it might turn out (although I admit that I don't know how) that those skills are not going to be needed to defeat Voldemort. Because the most important is the power that LV knows not. Not the powers that he has.

Thanks Soli about the avatar, actually, I like it too.



me and my shadow 813 - Jan 12, 2006 11:05 pm (#2685 of 2971)

Lina, your post made me think of a part of JKR interview so I thought I'd copy it here.

I thought, with my editor Emma, about Draco. She said to me, So, Malfoy can do Occlumency," which obviously Harry never mastered and has now pretty much given up on doing, or attempting. And she was querying this and wondering whether he should be as good as it, but I think Draco would be very gifted in Occlumency, unlike Harry. Harry’s problem with it was always that his emotions were too near the surface and that he is in some ways too damaged. But he's also very in touch with his feelings about what's happened to him. He's not repressed, he's quite honest about facing them, and he couldn't suppress them, he couldn't suppress these memories."

I agree given Harry's personality that he'd be not so good at hiding his thoughts and feelings. Apparently, though, he was able to penetrate Snape's memories so he may be gifted at Legilimency. We know that Voldemort is now practicing Occlumency against Harry, but it may be that Harry is gifted enough to be able to still "read" Vold's mind and use what he sees to help with locating horcruxes...



Ydnam96 - Jan 14, 2006 9:41 am (#2686 of 2971)

Lina, I agree with your views on Harry's abilities/lack of abilities.

Me and my Shadow, thanks for posting that. I think that says a lot about Harry. I think Snape has always tried to get Harry to realize that he needs to hide some of his emotions because they can be used against him. (I still think Snape has hope).

I want to go back for a moment to the previous discssion of Harry getting "revenge" on the Dursleys. I think if he did that it would be stooping rather low for him. I personally would be very dissapointed if he did that. I think it is perfectly okay for him to express his feelings to them about how they treated him, but revenge is not necessary and puts him in a category of wizard I just don't want to see him in...



Lina - Jan 14, 2006 9:52 am (#2687 of 2971)

I agree with you, Mandy, about revenge.



Solitaire - Jan 14, 2006 10:17 am (#2688 of 2971)

Mandy, I think some of us were kidding. I do not see Harry as vengeful, despite what happened to Aunt Marge. I see him as hot-headed and rash at times, as we saw with his use of the Sectumsempra! spell ... using it without knowing what it would do. We have also seen him pull his wand on Uncle Vernon and Dudley, although he has not used it on them.

Even in the Shrieking Shack, Harry could not bring himself to let Remus and Sirius kill Pettigrew, even though Sirius probably felt he had the right simply from his own betrayal at Peter's hand. I do question whether or not Harry would attempt revenge against Snape for Dumbledore's death ... If Snape were standing unarmed and Harry had a clear shot, would he AK him? Even given his hatred of Snape, I do not think Harry could do it. JM2K, of course ...

Solitaire



Esther Rose - Jan 14, 2006 10:34 am (#2689 of 2971)

I do see Harry possibly taking Petunia with him on his trips until he is 17, then leaving Kreatcher to watch over Mr. Dursley and Dudley and having full satisfaction doing it. Not for revenge but for their protection. I agree that I do not want to see Harry try to get revenge but I do want to see the Dursley's receive some sort of poetic justice.



mike miller - Jan 14, 2006 10:53 am (#2690 of 2971)

Esther - It might be interesting if Harry took Aunt Petunia with him to Godric's Hollow (side-along apparition). After all, Petunia is the only person alive that can truly fill Harry in on Lily's side of the family.

I don't think Harry is capable of real, malicious revenge. Even his willingness and desire to destroy Voldemort is driven more by justice than revenge.



Solitaire - Jan 14, 2006 11:19 am (#2691 of 2971)

I agree, Mike. He couldn't even crucio Bella moments after she murdered Sirius ...



Lina - Jan 14, 2006 11:40 am (#2692 of 2971)

While, when it comes to Snape, I think Harry is very angry right now and it would be better for Snape to avoid him...



Solitaire - Jan 14, 2006 11:53 am (#2693 of 2971)

I agree, Lina ... but the truth is that, even if he proves to truly be the enemy, I do not believe Snape would ever be killed by Harry. Snape is not like Voldemort ... he pays close attention to everything and if Snape wanted Harry dead, he would be dead--although hasn't Harry said this about Voldemort?

Sometimes Voldemort brings to mind those brilliant geniuses who can understand and perform feats no ordinary mortal can grasp ... but who possess no common sense and eventually meet their doom from some insignificant little thing they have overlooked. JM2K ...

Solitaire



Aimee Shawn - Jan 14, 2006 10:55 pm (#2694 of 2971)

Help! I'm sorry, but what is JM2K? I thought I'd read all the messages to date but that escaped me. Thanx.



dizzy lizzy - Jan 14, 2006 11:17 pm (#2695 of 2971)

JM2K=Just my 2 knuts!



Lina - Jan 15, 2006 12:19 am (#2696 of 2971)

Aimee, there is a Commonly Used Abbreviations for the Lexicon Forums that explains the abbreviations that are used on the Forum. There are many HP abbreviations and no so many "net-speak" abbreviations.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 16, 2006 9:19 am (#2697 of 2971)

Solitaire, you bring up some points I wholeheartedly agree with.

I feel as though, even when confronted with Big V, Harry will protect himself in a defensive manner, but not in an offensive manner. For this reason, I think I need to revisit the second part of the prophecy - the part Big V did not hear. Either must die at the hand of the other. . .What if Harry doesn't fight back in this way?

As usual, when I have been doing some thinking, I wind up with more questions than answers!



Solitaire - Jan 16, 2006 9:34 am (#2698 of 2971)

Voldemort could prove the exception to Harry's reticence to hurt anyone. Harry has now witnessed his parents (through the Dementor memories), Sirius, Cedric, and Dumbledore fall victim to either Voldemort himself or his murderous goons. Amelia Bones and Emmeline Vance, both of whom Harry has met face to face, have also become his victims, either directly or indirectly. And now Bill Weasley, who is sort of a surrogate older brother, has been affected for life by one of Voldy's bloodthirsty henchmen.

It is entirely possible that Harry finally has the impetus he needs to find the Horcruxes, destroy them, and take Voldemort down once and for all. If this doesn't do it, what will?

Solitaire



HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 16, 2006 10:01 am (#2699 of 2971)

He didn't have the capacity to do so in GoF - he shouted Expelliarmus, while Big V shouted an AK at him; he couldn't Crucio Bella properly, I think he's had enough incentive - it's just not in him, as far as I can see it.

The million-dollar question: If this doesn't do it, what will?



frogface - Jan 16, 2006 12:36 pm (#2700 of 2971)

The thing that does it for me is that in HBP two things are made very clear. 1) Harry's role is to kill Voldemort or die trying. 2) Is that killing splits the soul.

In my opinion, for a satifactory ending, Harry must be the victor, but also keep his soul intact (whether or not he survives). This is why I believe Voldemort will be defeated in a way that is similiar to when he lost his body, but obviously not exactly the same as that would be rather boring. Still I think that (aside from Harry) Voldy will the main implement in his own downfall once again.

Harry Potter - Page 3 2134391180

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mona
Mona
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Posts 2701 to 2750

Post  Mona Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:01 am



Aqualu Nifey - Jan 16, 2006 1:13 pm (#2701 of 2971)

HH, are you suggesting that Harry won't fight Voldy? I've been worried about it myself. I've thought that Voldemort would win in the big showdown, but I thought Harry would at least go down fighting. Maybe something like what happened in the graveyard will happen again. Where Harry just hides until he thinks of his father, and how he went down fighting. Maybe, if it's possible, Harry could sort of accidentally kill him. Like, not AK him, but kind of like Bella accidentally killed Sirius. She just stupefied him and he fell in to the veil. Maybe something like that could happen, so Harry won't actually have to commit murder. Illogical, I know, but here's hoping....



MickeyCee3948 - Jan 16, 2006 1:32 pm (#2702 of 2971)

I think that until we saw Harry in HBP he was only taught the defensive curses required to protect himself. Through Snape's textbook he has been provided the first offensive curses which he can use to disable or kill. I have no doubt that he will be "able" to kill Voldemort if he is required. I just hope something happens that does not require him to step across that threshold.

Mickey

P.S. I like your idea frogface. That the dark lord ends up being the cause of his own downfall. A number of things make me think this way but far too long for one post.



Steve Newton - Jan 16, 2006 1:40 pm (#2703 of 2971)

frogface, I can't recall anywhere in HBP where is says that killing will split a soul. What I do remember is that it says that committing a murder will split a soul.



Eponine - Jan 16, 2006 1:43 pm (#2704 of 2971)

The thing that does it for me is that in HBP two things are made very clear. 1) Harry's role is to kill Voldemort or die trying. 2) Is that killing splits the soul.

But does killing in self-defense split the soul? Or is it deliberate murder? To me, a self-defense killing (which would definitely be applicable in Harry's case) isn't evil like deliberate murder is.



Puck - Jan 16, 2006 6:57 pm (#2705 of 2971)

I agree, it likely has to be murder, not accident or self defense. Plus, even if a soul is split, I believe that it may heal in time if a horcrux is not created.



Solitaire - Jan 16, 2006 8:38 pm (#2706 of 2971)

Voldy will the main implement in his own downfall once again

I think you are probably right, Frogface. I also tend to agree with the idea that it is cold-blooded murder that splits the soul. In the end, I suppose Harry will have to kill Voldemort. Whether he is on the offense or the defense, it must happen.

We know Dumbledore vanquished (killed, I assume?) Grindelwald, and he seemed to survive with his spirit intact. Or did he? Could it be the violence of that experience that has been responsible for his tendency to always look for the best in people ... to try to reason them out of violence and into a more sane and reasonable way of life?

If and when Harry does vanquish (kill) Voldemort, I have no doubt that it will affect him deeply. Yes, he will be relieved that it is over (assuming he lives). But even so, I think a part of him must grieve for the innocence he has lost in this process.

Solitaire



cindysuewho45 - Jan 17, 2006 12:52 am (#2707 of 2971)

Hi all, About this soul spliting. As I know about it, LV is the only one out there that has his soul split. And I'm thinking that he did it not with just killing someone but also a spell or a charm etc. when he made a horcrux. Alot of you feel that killing one or more at war or as a Auror will split the soul. I did not see that in any of the books. I know that if you did not want to kill but had to it would make you sad or eat at your soul. But to split your soul you must do a horcrux. And the Auror's or Harry will not be doing any horcruxes. Just some thoughts. I think that Harry will have to kill LV in the end, but I do not think that it will be AK. Maybe something from his mom, a potion or some old magic. Cindysuewho



The giant squid - Jan 17, 2006 1:58 am (#2708 of 2971)

The way I read it in HBP was that killing causes your soul to split. It will heal over time unless you do something to cause it to stay separate (such as creating a horcrux). It's possible that I misinterpreted something or "read" something that wasn't actually written, but that's how I've understood it all this time.

--Mike



Solitaire - Jan 17, 2006 9:43 am (#2709 of 2971)

It looked that way to me, as well, Mike.



Steve Newton - Jan 17, 2006 10:24 am (#2710 of 2971)

cindysuewho45, you say that Voldemort is the one out there who has his soul split. Although he is the only one that we have heard of I am not sure that this is true. I will not be surprised if we find one more superfluous soul bit out there. I'm thinking maybe Slytherin's.



Aqualu Nifey - Jan 17, 2006 11:24 am (#2711 of 2971)

I don't think Slytherin would have split his soul, he had a herititary fixation, but I don't think he'd be into the whole death - soul splitting thing. He *was* best mates with Gryffindor, after all.

I think killing DAMAGES the soul, but I don't think it would break a chunk off of it. It would make it easier to break it off and then create the Horcrux. But it seems like it would take A LOT to rip up someone's soul and encase it in a diary or something.



LooneyLuna - Jan 17, 2006 1:21 pm (#2712 of 2971)

I don't know why, but I always thought it was the use of the AK that split the soul. That's why it's a killing curse. You kill the person it's aimed at, but then you're cursed with less of a soul.

I'm sure I'm wrong - I have the iron ready for my hands.

That being said, I don't think that Harry will use an AK to kill Voldemort. My personal fav is Harry will somehow force Voldemort through the veil.



Puck - Jan 17, 2006 2:54 pm (#2713 of 2971)

Harry could toss the final horcrux through the veil, and LV will jump after it....

Harry did seem upset at the end of OotP that his life must include a murder, one way or the other. To me he appeared as upset about the prospect of killing as he was about possibly being killed.



haymoni - Jan 17, 2006 3:48 pm (#2714 of 2971)

I thought that anytime you murdered, your soul would split.

Voldy just thought to make something out of the pieces.

What a creative guy!

He's like the Martha Stewart of the Dark Arts!



J Hood - Jan 17, 2006 4:41 pm (#2715 of 2971)

What a beautiful statement . . . in a sort of morbid kind of way, Haymoni.



Aqualu Nifey - Jan 17, 2006 5:12 pm (#2716 of 2971)

LOL, Haymoni!

But I'm sure other people have murdered before, Aurors, for instance. I don't think their souls have split.



haymoni - Jan 17, 2006 7:18 pm (#2717 of 2971)

Maybe they have.

THE FOLLOWING IS NOT MEANT TO BE A POLITICAL, RELIGOUS OR MORAL STATEMENT!!! DO NOT DEBATE THE FOLLOWING!!!!

Many people have killed for what most of us would consider a good reason - they are police officers protecting us, soldiers fighting in a war, people who kill in self-defense.

A number of these folks have a difficult time dealing with what they have done. Nobody from the outside is criticizing them - they just have a hard time themselves dealing with the fact that they have taken a life.

Perhaps they feel that a part of themselves has been destroyed - i.e. a piece of their soul is missing.

I'm not saying they should feel this way. I'm just saying that - well, to paraphrase Dumbledore - killing ain't that easy.



Aqualu Nifey - Jan 17, 2006 8:54 pm (#2718 of 2971)

I completely understand that killing leaves the soul altered, but I wouldn't think that it would be splitting, as in the process of making a Horcrux. It would probably be damaged, as I said before, but *split* I think is a little strong.



Solitaire - Jan 17, 2006 11:29 pm (#2719 of 2971)

Haymoni is right ... it isn't that easy. Look at Draco. As Dumbledore pointed, Draco had a clear shot at an unarmed Wizard, yet he did not take advantage of it. Harry would be far less disposed to kill than Draco, I think, except in dire circumstances.

As to the Horcruxes ... I like the idea of Harry tossing it behind the veil. That would be great!

I do believe that someone, somewhere, must have made a Horcrux at some point. Otherwise, how would Voldemort have learned about them? Sluggy knew ... Yes, perhaps there is an important Horcrux floating around out there that doesn't belong to Voldemort. The idea of seven of them, however, seems to have been Voldemort's.

Solitaire



LooneyLuna - Jan 18, 2006 6:41 am (#2720 of 2971)

I agree with you Aqualu. I think there are other terrible curses that cause death eventually (blackended-hand curse comes to mind), but the castor's soul isn't split, it's just damaged, because there is a possibility that the person can survive it.

My thinking about the killing curse (AK) and soul splitting is that unlike other curses, it cannot be blocked and the person on the receiving end will die. So, you have to want to kill the person with all your heart and soul(?) in order for the AK to have effect. This proves so damaging that the soul is split in two. Just my theory about it.

Harry has the barest amount of pity for Tom Riddle, I don't think that Harry could AK anyone he pities. My guess is that Harry will find another way, like the veil or some one else will do the deed instead of Harry.

Step aside, Potter. Snape spat as he strode forward. "Let me kill Voldemort. Your mother wouldn't have wanted you to become a killer just to avenge her."

Peter Pettigrew would do as well.



haymoni - Jan 18, 2006 9:20 am (#2721 of 2971)

I think your soul is split when you kill somebody, but if you utter the Horcrux incantation - whatever that is - the split piece can be captured and then placed in a trinket.

I think the soul splits automatically but it takes a willful act to make the Horcrux.

My concern is that Harry won't be able to destroy the Horcruxes that he finds without getting blackened!



Esther Rose - Jan 18, 2006 9:29 am (#2722 of 2971)

I think that Harry has the power to destroy the Horcrux without anything being blackened. My theory is that this goes along with "the power to vanquish the Dark Lord".



haymoni - Jan 18, 2006 9:58 am (#2723 of 2971)

I was kindof hoping that we'd see more of Bill - he's a curse-breaker after all!



LooneyLuna - Jan 18, 2006 11:14 am (#2724 of 2971)

If anyone would be able to help Harry with curse-breaking, it would be Bill. He also could help on the Horcrux hunt because he has to have experience looking for magical traces of concealment. Either that or Harry could ask for a few pointers.



haymoni - Jan 18, 2006 11:20 am (#2725 of 2971)

Of course the only reason that I am concerned about this is because I wanted Orlando Bloom to play Bill...but that is for another thread!



Puck - Jan 18, 2006 7:18 pm (#2726 of 2971)

Funny, but I've wondered about whether Harry would live or die, but it never occurred to me he may end up with some sort of "deformity" as a result of the horcrux hunt. Perhaps only part of him will "die", as happened to DD's hand.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 19, 2006 7:32 am (#2727 of 2971)

Just had another thought. Harry inherited 12GP. Does that mean he inherited the Grim? Is that a foreshadowing? Such signs were all around Sirius, including his animagus figure - am I just not seeing them all for Harry?

My theory leaves Harry alive, but realistically, either way, Harry won't be troubled. If he survives, he has his friends whom he loves dearly and if he dies, he rejoins his family.



MickeyCee3948 - Jan 19, 2006 9:09 am (#2728 of 2971)

I have wondered if the scar being part of Voldemort will provide Harry some protection when he goes after the horcruxes. I mean the Dark Lord wouldn't want one of his hands deformed if he went after the horcrux himself. Or could it be the other way around that now that Voldemort has Harry's blood inside of him, he can't touch his own horcruxes anymore as he is now "contaminated with muggle blood".

Mickey



TwinklingBlueEyes - Jan 19, 2006 9:13 am (#2729 of 2971)

now that Voldemort has Harry's blood inside of him, he can't touch his own horcruxes anymore as he is now contaminated with muggle blood".

Now that's an interesting thought Mickey!

...toddles off to ponder some more...



Solitaire - Jan 19, 2006 11:11 am (#2730 of 2971)

Well, wasn't he always "contaminated with Muggle blood," since his father was a Muggle? Since both of Harry's parents were Wizards, Voldemort would have more Muggle blood than Harry. Right? But it is an interesting idea about Harry being able to handle the Horcruxes more safely, as a result of the scar and his "connection" with Voldemort.

Solitaire



haymoni - Jan 19, 2006 11:24 am (#2731 of 2971)

The gleam in Dumbledore's eye has to be connected to either Voldy weakening because of Harry's blood or Harry being stronger/gaining an advantage because of his blood being with Voldy's.

I wonder if Voldy's soul-bits will recognize him now.

Is his soul different if he has some of Harry's blood in him?



Esther Rose - Jan 19, 2006 11:42 am (#2732 of 2971)

Perhaps Voldemort will become extremely mortal and weaken quickly over time the moment all of his other Horcruxes are destroyed or has been weakend because of the poison now that he holds Harry's blood within him. In otherwords, one man's lifeline becomes another man's poison.



ex-FAHgeek - Jan 19, 2006 11:51 am (#2733 of 2971)

---quote--- Since both of Harry's parents were Wizards, Voldemort would have more Muggle blood than Harry. Right? ---end quote---

On the other hand, both of them had two Wizard and two Muggle grandparents, so you have a lot of leeway in how you define their heritages.

At any rate, that's really the point: being a pure-blood, half-blood, etc. is something that can be redefined as you see fit (Harry's a pure-blood - he has two Wizard parents! Harry's a half-blood - half of his grandparents are Muggles! Harry's a half-blood - he has known Muggle ancestry! Harry's a three-quarters-blood - his Muggle-born mother counts as half-a-Witch!) In the end, even if one buys into the pure-blood issue, almost all the definitions are gray, rather than black-and-white.



haymoni - Jan 19, 2006 11:57 am (#2734 of 2971)

Yes - if he's left with only the soul that is with him and his blood is tainted with Harry, he may not be the almost immortal wizard he once was.

The protection of Lily bothers me though.

Bring on Book 7!



Solitaire - Jan 19, 2006 3:45 pm (#2735 of 2971)

Because Lily's blood protection was all about love and sacrifice--and she did that for Harry--I honestly believe that, in the end, it will not extend to Voldemort. Even if it did, it will have worn off by Harry's 17th birthday, so ...

Solitaire



me and my shadow 813 - Jan 19, 2006 6:14 pm (#2736 of 2971)

Solitaire, it is my understanding that the protection Lily bestowed upon Harry does not expire. The protection Petunia/DD provided, while Harry's main residence is 4PD, is what will expire on his 17th birthday.

Esther Rose wrote - "Perhaps Voldemort will become extremely mortal and weaken quickly over time the moment all of his other Horcruxes are destroyed or has been weakend because of the poison now that he holds Harry's blood within him. In otherwords, one man's lifeline becomes another man's poison."

DD has confirmed this. Harry must destroy all the horcruxes before going for Vold because he will then be mortal. He will be weakened in that sense, however he will not be weakened mentally. He'll still have all his "skills", be a walking brain essentially. And that is where Harry's "love" will conquer.



Solitaire - Jan 19, 2006 11:02 pm (#2737 of 2971)

That makes sense ...


Choices - Jan 20, 2006 6:50 pm (#2738 of 2971)

Didn't we come to the conclusion on another thread that killing in battle, or in self defense, might split the soul, but the remorse and sorrow that a "normal" person would feel would heal the split? It is only the split soul of someone like Voldemort, who feels no remorse, that remains split and can be then placed into a Horcrux for safe keeping.

Also, in chapter 23 of HBP, Dumbledore tells Harry that the prophesy is only significant because Voldemort made it so. He goes on to tell Harry...."You are setting too much store by the prophesy." I often wonder if that is not JKR telling us readers that we are making to much of the prophesy? I firmly believe that Harry will vanquish Voldemort in such a way, that at the end of book 7, Harry's soul will remain whole and untarnished.



cindysuewho45 - Jan 21, 2006 5:15 am (#2739 of 2971)

Hi all, Well here is some more thoughts on soul splitting and why Harry's soul will not split when he has to take out LV. Now I do believe that in times of old there were some others that made a Horcrux. Thats why Hermione did find it in one book, but it only said something like, ( Now of Horcruxes we do not speak it is so evil or dark ) I do not know it word for word. Also DD and Slughorn knew about them. But we only know about LV doing the Horcruxes and splitting his soul. DD told Harry in book 6 page 62, that LV killed enough people to make an army of Inferi's. That must of been 100's, however DD say's that LV's soul is only split 7 times. So even LV had to do something more to split his soul than just kill with the AK. It had to be something old and dark like a incantion, spell, charm or potion. That the castor has to do at the time he or she kills a person. Or LV would have his soul in 100's of parts and that would not make sense. So I am thinking that when Harry kills LV, his soul will not split. I do not feel that Harry will use AK to take out LV. The veil sounds good as well as other potions and charms.



cindysuewho45 - Jan 21, 2006 6:17 am (#2740 of 2971)

Hi all, I was just thinking about Harry's blood protection from Lily. Harry's blood in LV may make LV feel that he has some kind of protection too. But DD and Harry know that Lily's protection ends when Harry turns 17. So it will not work for LV, and LV may not know about that part. ?????? I don't know ?????? And as for Harry inheriting Grim. from James and Lily, that would make sense. It would be alittle destroyed here and there from when LV had the fight and killed James. But some of the rooms in the house will be in good shape, I'm thinking. He could fix it up with some work and some magic. He may like it there. We know that he will not stay at #12GP unless he must, and theres no where else to go. We will see. ?? I'm also thinking that there will be a war or big big fight with LV the DE's and Harry with all the houses working together,and the Order etc. at Hogwarts. Then Harry and LV could end up at the MoM somehow to end it. The room with the veil or maybe the room of the power of love? There are lots and lots of good thoughts on how Harry will do in LV. Cindysuewho



Honour - Jan 21, 2006 6:51 am (#2741 of 2971)

Hi there cindysuewho45, I think you may be a wee bit mixed up? The protection that ends when Harry turns 17 (comes of age in the WW) is the blood protection between Harry and Petunia surrounding Privet Drive that Dumbledore placed there, and not the "sacrificial" protection Lily gave Harry when she chose to die protecting him, heck it all, I hope that makes sense to you...Smile

You also mention something about Harry inheriting the Grim from Lily and James? Are you talking about Sirius' animagus form? or the Black family home Grimauld Place? Could you be confusing Godric's Hollow? because you then talk about fixing the place up ...

I agree with you, I don't think Harry will feel at all at home at 12GP, especially without Sirius being there, I know it has been suggested that he may visit there to look for Horcruxes, but I think he would do better to send Kreacher and/or Dobby to pick up whatever he needs ... Hope this helps you Smile



cindysuewho45 - Jan 21, 2006 7:05 am (#2742 of 2971)

Hi once more, About Lily's blood? Did DD not say something about (As long as you can call your mothers blood kin's home your home I have used old magic to extend your mothers protection.) Or something like that??? I will now have to go back and look it up and read it all over. I'll post it when I find what book and page it is in. If this is right then they are all part of the same protection, I'm thinking.And yes you are right about Godric's Hollow!!! Opps! I just put it down wrong. Thank you!!!



Rea - Jan 21, 2006 7:14 am (#2743 of 2971)

I was thinking about the killing-soul splitting affair: didn't Harry "technically" killed Quirrel? We H's soul is still whole and one, so the self defense should play a role also in WW...



Steve Newton - Jan 21, 2006 7:22 am (#2744 of 2971)

cindysuewho45, I cannot recall anyone saying that they have used ancient magic. I'm not sure that Lily did. I think that the ancient magic was in the act of willing sacrifice, not in an 'magic' that Lily performed.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 21, 2006 8:40 am (#2745 of 2971)

TR mentioned ancient magic that he had forgotten about with regard to Lily's sacrifice. I interpreted it the same way, Steve Newton - the protection was somehow evoked rather than performed by a spell.

The big question is, how will Harry's blood affect Big V? Judging by JKRs response to the glint in DD's eye in an interview, it has significance.



Soul Search - Jan 21, 2006 4:04 pm (#2746 of 2971)

Voldemort using Harry's blood and the glint in Dumbledore's eye confuse the issue, but I think Voldemort suffering great pain when he tried to occupy Harry at the end of OotP says Lily's protection spell is still in effect.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 21, 2006 5:17 pm (#2747 of 2971)

Actually, that is a very good point, Soul Search and it is wise to remember this in our endeavor to figure out the whole blood protection situation. However, it may be slightly confusing because I thought Big V's recoil was caused by Harry's capacity to love. He was talking fine through Harry until Harry thought of Sirius which evoked a load of emotion.



Choices - Jan 21, 2006 5:53 pm (#2748 of 2971)

It is strange to think that the protection Dumbledore put on Harry will suddenly end when he turns 17. Why? It's magic and if it can last for 15 years, why can't it last for 25, or 35 years? What is it about coming of age that causes the spell/charm to end? Why can't it just be renewed (assuming Dumbledore was still around to do it)? Could it have something to do with an agreement Dumbledore made with the Dursleys? Did they only agree to give him shelter until he comes of age? More darn questions!! LOL



Honour - Jan 21, 2006 6:00 pm (#2749 of 2971)

I agree with you both Soul Search and HH11, I would also like to add that along with Harry's emotional response I think that Voldermort recoiled because he also sensed that Harry like Dumbledore, is not afraid of dying. For someone like Voldermort who has spent the majority of his life trying to stave off death this must have been quite a shock to the system!



Puck - Jan 21, 2006 6:42 pm (#2750 of 2971)

Perhaps the magic was to save a child, and at age 17 Harry will no longer be considered such. Thus, the magic can no longer protect him, but his own capacity to love can.

So, Lily's ability to love saved him as a baby, and his own ability to love will save him as a man.

Harry Potter - Page 3 2134391180

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mona
Mona
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Posts 2751 to 2800

Post  Mona Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:03 am



Solitaire - Jan 21, 2006 6:45 pm (#2751 of 2971)

It seems like the protection vanishing at age 17 has something to do with Harry's entrée into official adulthood. In the Muggle world, when we become adults, we officially become responsible for our own actions. Our parents really can't run the same kind of "interference" for us as they can when we are children. We are free to make all kinds of choices and decisions on our own and reap the consequences, good or bad.

Lily's love protection may linger in some form as long as Harry is alive--perhaps in the same way that our own parents' love and values and teachings remain with us (in one form or another) all our lives. But the seals Dumbledore invoked seem to have an expiration date--the time when Harry is legally considered an adult and must officially be able to stand on his own. Just a theory ...

Solitaire



MickeyCee3948 - Jan 21, 2006 8:05 pm (#2752 of 2971)

I think it stems from the fact that Harry will be a full pledged wizard soon after turning 17 and as such should be able to protect himself. After all isn't becoming an adult when we are "expected" to start taking care of ourselves.

Mickey



Solitaire - Jan 22, 2006 3:09 pm (#2753 of 2971)

Exactly!



Steve Newton - Jan 23, 2006 7:28 am (#2754 of 2971)

Just a trivial observation. In chapter 2 of SS, while driving home from the zoo, Piers asks Harry if he was talking to the snake. It almost seems as if Piers is being friendly to Harry.



Marie E. - Jan 23, 2006 6:57 pm (#2755 of 2971)

Steve, I've noticed that myself. Piers doesn't seem overtly hostile to Harry at all in these scenes.

Doesn't Harry mention somewhere else that Piers was known to hold back Harry's arms while Dudders punched him?



Puck - Jan 23, 2006 7:10 pm (#2756 of 2971)

I always pitured Piers using a very mocking tone when he asked Harry about talking to the snake.



haymoni - Jan 24, 2006 5:41 am (#2757 of 2971)

I thought Piers knew exactly what he was doing.



cindysuewho45 - Jan 25, 2006 12:07 am (#2758 of 2971)

Hi all, Yes I agree with HungarianHorntailll about Harry being full of feelings of love & emotion about Sirius and thats what made LV go out of him.I was just thinking about Harry's protection and how DD had that gleam in his eye. How about, DD & Harry know that Harry's protection ends when he turns into a adult at 17. LV doesn't know about this, so if he was planing on using the fact that he has Harry's blood it will not work for or help him when he want' it to. So maybe this is the mistake DD was happy about? I've thought about the veil, I like it but it just doesn't work. JKR said in one of her interviews that theres something important Harry has to do in book 7. To do with his mom & doing away with LV. Now I do not see Harry useing any Dark Arts, AK, unforgivable curses on LV. Now that he knows more about them. DD would not have wanted that & Harry is DD man. So what could JKR be talking about when she said that theres info. about Lily that Harry will need to take out LV? We know that she was in the Slug Club. So she was more than likely a master at Potions & Charms. And there is her eyes, someone said that (Eye's + Potion's Master = Tears) Maybe Harry will find some info. at Godric's Hollow, tears of Lily's in a potion bottle etc., just theory but I like it! Then I saw once in a interview where she said that knowing someones full name is powerful magic & can be used against them, T.M.R.. This could be used in a charm. But all in all going into the veil no matter how good it is , there just no love with that & it doesn't seem to bring Lily into it. I'm thinking that Harry as a adult will be very powerful. As for blood James was his dad and James was very powerful. And Harry's mom, Lily ended up in Slughorn's Club that says she was right up there too. And Harry has some of LV's powers himself. And LV is the most powerful Dark wizard of his time. This adds up to alot of power for Harry, now as a adult he should come into all of it & learn how to use it all. And with his friends by his side and Hermione's intelligence, and Ginny's love. We are in for a great book.



Aqualu Nifey - Jan 25, 2006 3:15 pm (#2759 of 2971)

My thoughts on Dumbledore's triumphant gleam, after rereading the Chapter 23 in HBP, was that he realized that Voldemort had multiple Horcruxes and knew how to destroy him.

Thoughts on defeating Voldemort... love can't kill anybody. After destroying all Voldy's horcruxes, Harry's not going to walk up to Voldy, say I love you and give him a big hug, and expect him to fall down dead. He's got to kill him some how and I don't see how love is going to enter in to the ultimate defeat of Voldemort. Love might save Harry from his soul completely splitting and help him recover from having to murder someone, but it seems like the only way to kill someone is with an AK. Either that or the veil. It doesn't seem entirely likely that that's going to happen again. In the heat of battle, when they were already in the Department of Mysteries, it's sort of plausable, but it doesn't look like the Ministry of Magic, specifically the Department of Mysteries is going to be open again. It looks like it's coming down to either Voldemort or Harry AKing the other.

While I'm at it, I don't think killing just by itself makes a Horcrux because in the memory, Slughorn said there was a spell that you had to do. Seems like something that would take your soul out of your body and encase it in whatever object you like.



sstabeler - Jan 26, 2006 10:41 am (#2760 of 2971)

there are a few points I'd like to make regarding what is likely to happen with LV V Harry. first, Lily's motherly love for Harry saved Harry when he was 1, maybe Harry's power of love saves him in a similar way in the final duel? alos, I can thik of one way Harry could kill Voldemort without having his soul split, bt I wonder what happens when an AK hits a mirror? does it rebound, in which case Harry could usen sirius's mirror, perhaps? or, a mirror is known to be in a room at LV's HQ, so maybe the AK hits that and rebounds on Voldemort?



haymoni - Jan 26, 2006 10:49 am (#2761 of 2971)

sstabeler - JKR's comments in the Emerson/Melissa interview about the mirror being off the table makes me wonder about the very scenario you suggest.

While it reminds me of Perseus, it isn't exactly the same. His situation was more like Hermione using the mirror to see around corners.

It's possible that Harry takes a leaf out of her book and uses the mirror to see around a corner and Whoosh! The blast of green light gets rebounded off the mirror and zaps Voldy.

Harry's love for Sirius is why he carries the mirror bits around with him (or maybe he repairs the mirror), thus Love is what vanquishes Voldy.



Aqualu Nifey - Jan 26, 2006 1:30 pm (#2762 of 2971)

sstabeler, seems like a good idea to me. JKR said that the mirror would resurface. Mirrors are important in quite a few mythes, Perseus-Medusa, like haymoni said, Lord of the Rings, Snow White, Alice in Wonderland, King Arthur, etc. Three mirrors have popped up in the series already: Mirror of Erised, the one Harry sees Voldemort in in OotP, and Sirius & James's.



ex-FAHgeek - Jan 26, 2006 1:38 pm (#2763 of 2971)

---quote--- I was thinking about the killing-soul splitting affair: didn't Harry "technically" killed Quirrel? We H's soul is still whole and one, so the self defense should play a role also in WW... ---end quote---

Technically, yes, although it is interesting that it took another four books for anyone to actually say that Quirrel was dead (it's implied, but it's not until listing off the fates of the DADA teachers in OotP that they actually say so. I suppose that for those who think of PS as a children's book, that's one point in favor of the argument: keeping on-stage death ambiguous and non-deliberate.)

On the other hand, there are plenty of things we don't know - was Harry's soul damaged at all, and did it take time to heal? Does Harry being unconscious for the death make a difference (personally, I'd say that's a bigger issue than whether or not it was in self-defense. After all, an unconscious Harry can't let go by himself)?



Choices - Jan 26, 2006 6:16 pm (#2764 of 2971)

I think Dumbledore says that Quirrell died when Voldemort left his body. I don't think Harry can be responsible. Chalk up another death for Voldemort.



haymoni - Jan 27, 2006 6:40 am (#2765 of 2971)

Harry just blistered him a bit - okay, a lotta bit - but I don't think it really killed him.

I'm guessing Vapormort took as much of Quirrel with him as he could and that ended up killing him, along with the blisters/burns.



Soul Search - Jan 27, 2006 6:52 am (#2766 of 2971)

Back to mirrors a bit. Harry has the pieces of the mirror Sirius gave him, but we have never seen the other of the pair, the one Sirius kept.

First, note that Sirius had both mirrors. Wonder why? Wouldn't James have had his mirror at Godric's Hollow?

Where is the mirror Sirius had? Is it at #12 Grimmauld Place? Will Harry find it?



HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 27, 2006 7:07 am (#2767 of 2971)

Soul Search, I once suggested that Sirius had the mirror with him and attempted to contact Harry on his way to the MoM with the Order that night in Book 5 (cell-phone style). So, perhaps it was in his pocket when he was pushed through the veil?

In Book 6, I hoped Harry would find his mirror to have been mysteriously repaired when he pulls it out of his trunk. Perhaps by DD?



Choices - Jan 27, 2006 12:47 pm (#2768 of 2971)

There was no mention of the mirror in book 6. When Harry looked at what was in the bottom of his trunk prior to going off with Dumbledore, the broken pieces of mirror were not mentioned as being there. Heaven only knows what has happened to them.



Soul Search - Jan 27, 2006 1:28 pm (#2769 of 2971)

Choices, I hadn't noticed that. If HungarianHorntail11's suggestion has merit, and Harry has discarded the mirror pieces, it doesn't look like those mirrors will play any role in book seven. Too bad, we all had some good ideas for them.



Choices - Jan 27, 2006 1:39 pm (#2770 of 2971)

A large trunk stood in the very middle of the room. It's lid open; it looked expectant; yet it was almost empty but for a residue of old underwear, sweets, empty ink bottles and broken quills that coated the very bottom.

No mention of the mirrors, but that does not necessarily mean they weren't there....or somewhere else. I guess it remains to be seen.



Robert Dierken - Jan 27, 2006 6:13 pm (#2771 of 2971)

Maybe they are under the old underwear.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jan 28, 2006 8:27 am (#2772 of 2971)

LOL Robert D!

Since JKR said the mirrors weren't on the table for discussion, it leaves me curious. The last I read of them, Harry had smashed his when he threw it into the trunk. Odd, though, that now JKR makes sure to mention that it is no longer in the trunk. I almost got the feeling that someone has removed (and subsequently repaired) it. If it's true, I guess it would make the most sense that it was Dobby, but since DD has always kept such a close watch on him and gave him the cloak, I thought it, too, could be a possibility. I guess I'm putting the cart before the horse, though, with respect to this theory of mine.



Choices - Jan 28, 2006 10:58 am (#2773 of 2971)

She hasn't actually said the mirror wasn't in the trunk, but she hasn't said it was either. She's just being mum on the subject.



Puck - Jan 28, 2006 11:33 am (#2774 of 2971)

Looking at the Black family tree on Leaky Cauldron, it seems Phineas may be great great grandfather to both Harry and Neville.



Mediwitch - Jan 28, 2006 8:37 pm (#2775 of 2971)

Lots of familiar HP surnames on just that little piece of the Black family tree (Flint, Bulstrode, Burke, Longbottom, and Crouch), and the marriage of "Dorea" to "Charlus Potter" yielding "1S" = 1 son (James? - too bad it only is recorded as "1S")!!! I would LOVE to know the "many stories between the lines".



Steve Newton - Feb 8, 2006 12:20 pm (#2776 of 2971)

Just random thoughts but it seems to me that Harry is collecting a bunch of one of a kind, outcast, allies. One house elf-Dobby, one centaur-Firenze, one giant-Grawp, one ghost-Myrtle. I can't think of other right now. Not the merpeople, not a dwarf, no especial relationship with the goblins (Bill could make a connection.) Not close to a poltergeist. Maybe a squib, Figg.



Essidji - Feb 9, 2006 1:52 am (#2777 of 2971)

One werewolf, Remus Lupin...



Steve Newton - Feb 9, 2006 5:55 am (#2778 of 2971)

How could I forget Lupin? A real duh moment. Duh!



HungarianHorntail11 - Feb 16, 2006 7:05 am (#2779 of 2971)

Can we do this to the tune of "Partridge in a Pear Tree?"

On my first day at Hogwarts. . .



haymoni - Feb 16, 2006 8:05 am (#2780 of 2971)

You should start a thread on that - we need something to do before the GOF DVD comes out!!!



Puck - Feb 17, 2006 6:53 pm (#2781 of 2971)

A car in a Whomping Willow tree?



haymoni - Feb 17, 2006 7:32 pm (#2782 of 2971)

2 Weasley Twins and a Car in a Whomping Willow tree.



LooneyLuna - Feb 18, 2006 9:07 am (#2783 of 2971)

3 Quidditch Cups, 2 Weasley Twins and a Car in a Whomping Willow tree.



Choices - Feb 18, 2006 9:58 am (#2784 of 2971)

4 Seperate Houses, 3 Quidditch Cups, 2 Weasley Twins, and a Car in a Whomping Willow Tree.



Hollywand - Feb 18, 2006 2:49 pm (#2785 of 2971)

FIve Golden Snitches!



Mediwitch - Feb 18, 2006 5:00 pm (#2786 of 2971)

Six DADA teachers, five golden snitches, four separate houses, three Quidditch cups, 2 Weasley twins, and a car in a Whomping Willow Tree!

(Oh, boy, are we off topic!)



Solitaire - Feb 18, 2006 5:03 pm (#2787 of 2971)

7 years at Hogwarts, six DADA teachers, five golden snitches, four separate houses, three Quidditch cups, 2 Weasley twins, and a car in a Whomping Willow Tree!



haymoni - Feb 18, 2006 6:14 pm (#2788 of 2971)

8 Gryffindors (Harry, Ron, Seamus, Dean, Neville, Hermine, Lavender & Parvati)

8 Gryffindors, 7 years at Hogwarts, 6 DADA teachers, 5 golden snitches, 4 separate houses, 3 Quidditch cups, 2 Weasley twins and a car in a Whomping Willow Tree.

Can Harry sing???

(Just to keep us on topic!)



Aqualu Nifey - Feb 18, 2006 7:03 pm (#2789 of 2971)

9 Slug Club members, 8 Gryffindors, 7 years at Hogwarts 6 DADA teachers, 5 golden snitches, 4 separate houses, 3 Quidditch cups, 2 Weasley twins and a car in a Whomping Willow tree.



Elanor - Feb 19, 2006 12:36 am (#2790 of 2971)

10 Outstanding OWLs, 9 Slug Club members, 8 Gryffindors, 7 years at Hogwarts, 6 DADA teachers, 5 golden snitches, 4 separate houses, 3 Quidditch cups, 2 Weasley twins and a car in a Whomping Willow tree.

Of course Harry can sing!



ex-FAHgeek - Feb 19, 2006 7:18 am (#2791 of 2971) Reply
Edited by Feb 19, 2006 7:21 am

Hmm... this is a Harry Potter thread, so we need 11 of something that has to do with Harry...

11 lousy birthdays? No, the 11th one was actually good... and the 1st one was probably pretty nice as well.

Eh, we'll go with it...

11 lousy birthdays, 10 Outstanding OWLs, 9 Slug Club members, 8 Gryffindors, 7 years at Hogwarts, 6 DADA teachers, 5 golden snitches, 4 separate houses, 3 Quidditch cups, 2 Weasley twins and a car in a Whomping Willow tree.

Hmm... I wonder if any of the photos in the album Hagrid gave Harry were of his first birthday. What does a wizarding family give a one-year-old? A stuffed bunny that actually hops? A tap-dancing pineapple? An Every-Flavor Jellybean flavored teething ring?

And I don't know about Harry singing... I've never pictured him as being particularly aesthetically talented (then again, the friend of mine whose appearance - if not personality - is pasted into my imagination as "Harry Potter" was an excellent musician, so maybe Harry could be...)



Robert Dierken - Feb 19, 2006 8:10 am (#2792 of 2971)

Twelve hands on Albus Dumbledore's watch!



Snuffles - Feb 20, 2006 1:59 am (#2793 of 2971)

# **Claps and cheers**

Well done you guys, you may all take a bow!



geauxtigers - Feb 23, 2006 6:26 pm (#2794 of 2971)

I'm not sure really where to put this, but I keep thinking about it, so here goes nothing. (I also put this on theories, but only like 70 people have ever been there so I decided to put it here too.)

JKR has said in numerous interviews, that the fact Harry's got his mother's eyes is going to very important later on. I have no clue what this might be anyone have any ideas about what this could be. I don't think outside the box very well so I'm hoping someone out there has some theories on this!



LooneyLuna - Feb 24, 2006 6:02 am (#2795 of 2971)

I think Harry's eyes helped him get the memory from Slughorn since he was a big Lily fan. Slughorn couldn't stop looking in Harry's eyes. My other theory is that Harry will have a similar exchange with Snape in Book 7 and will bring up Lily. Snape won't be able to look away and will end up helping Harry because he has his mother's eyes.



haymoni - Feb 24, 2006 6:13 am (#2796 of 2971)

Or if Snape has been truly evil all along, the one thing that kept him from blowing Harry to smithereens may have been his eyes.

You look like your father, but your eyes! Those blasted eyes! I see her eyes every time I look at you, Potter! Her beautiful eyes in the middle of your father's arrogant face! I could hardly bear it, Potter. You should be down on bended knee, thankful that you have her eyes or I would have blasted you off the face of the earth long ago!

I love it when Snape gets crazy!!!



The One - Feb 24, 2006 6:14 am (#2797 of 2971)

I think Harry's eyes helped him get the memory from Slughorn since he was a big Lily fan. Slughorn couldn't stop looking in Harry's eyes.

This is a veru god point, but I still thinks it must be something more.

As for your theory of Snape, it does make sense. Everything about Harry reminds him about James, that he detest. The eyes are the exeptio. That might be important.



LooneyLuna - Feb 24, 2006 6:26 am (#2798 of 2971)

Getting that memory was fairly important to Dumbledore. We don't know if Harry would have been able to convince Slughorn to give him the memory if Harry did not have Lily's eyes. It certainly helped that he did. I'm sure the eye thing will come into play again.

Another question for JKR! Is the "Harry has Lily's eyes" thing played out?



geauxtigers - Feb 24, 2006 3:57 pm (#2799 of 2971)

Another thing that keeps coming to me: does it seem wierd to anyone that Harry never mentions the day his parents died? It was Halloween and its never been mentioned after the first time we hear the date (PS I think). It seems odd to me that its never mentioned you'd think Harry would find this date important wouldn't you. I don't think we've ever heard he was told the exact date, but that in itself seems odd as well. I don't see how all these years, that never came up if he wasn't told, or why it never came up at all even if he does know.

let me know what yall think...



Choices - Feb 24, 2006 6:28 pm (#2800 of 2971)

In many areas, Harry is woefully lacking in curiosity. The Dursleys were wildly successful in teaching Harry not to ask questions.

Harry Potter - Page 3 2134391180

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mona
Mona
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Posts 2801 to 2850

Post  Mona Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:05 am



Puck - Feb 24, 2006 8:00 pm (#2801 of 2971)

Harry really isn't overly fussed about details. That's Hermione's area. His parents died. LV killed them. That is all he cares to know about that night. He is more interested in knowing about who his parents were before they died. He probably knows he was 15 months old, and that is enough of a time frame for him.



geauxtigers - Feb 24, 2006 10:20 pm (#2802 of 2971)

I guess that, not being in Harry's position is keeping me from thinking that, but I feel like if I were, I would at least acknowledge the day my parents died thats all...it just seems the right thing to do don't you think?



Caius Iulius - Feb 25, 2006 4:22 am (#2803 of 2971)

And even if Harry is not to fussed about details, I still think it strange that he doesn't ask more questions like: what sort of jobs did my parents do? do I have relatives left? what were my parents favourite subjects at school? who were my mothers friends? Did my mother play quidditch? He doesn't even seem to have a basic curiosity.



Puck - Feb 25, 2006 8:09 am (#2804 of 2971)

My Dad did die when I was a baby. I know his date of death, but only know his birthday was in November, but don't remember the exact date. I know general information about him, but not too many specific details. Plus, I grew up in a home where he was loved and mentioned. Harry grew up not being allowed to speak of his folks,yet at this point he knows as much about his folks as I did about my Dad at that age.



haymoni - Feb 25, 2006 7:33 pm (#2805 of 2971)

I was floored when Harry mentioned wanting to go to Godric's Hollow.

That statement seemed to come out of the blue.

I want to go see where my mom & dad died even though I'm supposed to be on this Horcrux Quest that Dumbledore gave his life for.

He doesn't say ANYTHING about when or where his parents died - doesn't even question Pet when she finally reveals that she knows about the Wizarding World - and then all of a sudden he wants to go to Godric's Hollow???

It just seems odd.



Mediwitch - Feb 25, 2006 8:22 pm (#2806 of 2971)

I think part of what Dumbledore taught Harry during HBP was to go back and look at the beginning to find some answers - he took him back via the pensieve and showed him Voldemort's beginnings. Godric's Hollow represents the beginning of Harry's journey as "The Chosen One". Perhaps Harry has generalized the lesson Dumbledore taught him. And it's about time, too! I agree with Choices that Harry's curiosity is dreadfully absent!



Lina - Feb 26, 2006 3:17 am (#2807 of 2971)

I can not say that Harry's thoughts are the same as mine, but here is my view. My dad died. There doesn't go a day that I don't think of him, but I rarely "visit" him at the cemetery. Unfortunately, he died on my husband's birthday, so I prefer to celebrate his birthday than to remember a sad occasion. I think that the best way to remember people is to celebrate their lives than to think of the ways they died.

Now, Harry met many people who loved and appreciated his parents. He knew that they were members of the OotP and that they were rich. He saw another view of his parents in the Snape's worst memory and that upset him. He found out that nobody can really give him the objective description of his parents and he must have been afraid that some details might be too painful. The only memory that he can find in himself about his parents is nothing but pain. He probably didn't see a point to ask about their professions at the moment that he didn't know much of the Wizarding world. Now, when he feels as a full member of the Wizarding world, is the right time to find out more about them.

I don't expect him to ask aunt Petunia any questions.



Lina - Feb 26, 2006 8:28 am (#2808 of 2971)

Just to make my previous post more clear:

I don't think that everybody should feel the same way as I do, neither am trying to suggest that Harry feels the same way. Just showing a viewpoint from which it is not impossible to act the way that Harry acts.



Puck - Feb 26, 2006 9:20 am (#2809 of 2971)

Agreed, Lina. That was my point as well.



Solitaire - Feb 26, 2006 10:07 am (#2810 of 2971)

If Harry were a Muggle, I might think it odd for him to want to visit the house where his parents were murdered. In the Wizarding World, however--particularly in Harry's life--things are different. Harry is going to have to search the past to find the information he needs in his Quest ... for he is on a quest for the remaining Horcruxes. If Harry's death was indeed to have made Voldemort's final Horcrux, isn't it possible that Voldemort took with him to GH the relic he was going to use for the Horcrux?

Over on the Godric's Hollow thread, people have speculated as to whether Harry will be able to see the house when he gets there. Following the Potters' deaths, Hagrid was able to find the house, enter it, and take Harry; and Sirius found the destroyed house and saw the Potters' bodies (PoA in Shrieking Shack scene). For me, the real question is whether or not the house has been left intact, as it was when Hagrid found Harry. If it was, and no one else has been there since that night, then perhaps Harry will find some answers.

I think it is not only natural but imperative for him to go back to GH.

Solitaire



Choices - Feb 26, 2006 10:30 am (#2811 of 2971)

I agree that what Harry learned in HBP was to know your enemy, know his roots, know what he values and what motivates him. Also, know yourself. So I think Harry definitely must go back to Godric's Hollow - he must start at the beginning and that truly is where it all started. Important things happened there - not only in Harry's life, but in Voldemorts as well.



Nathan Zimmermann - Feb 26, 2006 11:39 am (#2812 of 2971)

Choices, your post reminded me of two maxims that are often attributed to Socrates: first, the unexamined life is not worth living for man; and, second, there is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.

I agree In order to gain the tools necessary to defeat Voldemort, Harry must as you ably illustrated not only understand the origins, values and motivations of Voldemort but, of the Potters including himself, and Petunia Dursley as well. Additionally, I think that Harry needs to examine his actions thus far while, at Hogwarts and alter those aspects, which, he finds lacking. I tend to think that in order to succeed he must transcend the boundaries that he finds comfortable, Harry must evolve in his thinking and gain a great deal of knowledge before, he can contemplate facing Voldemort. Although, I believe that the process of learning and acquiring thus knowledge will be quite painful. In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom Robert Kennedy paraphrasing Aeschylus.



Aqualu Nifey - Feb 26, 2006 6:17 pm (#2813 of 2971)

Nice quotes, Nathan.

Having learned more about Voldemort's style, it would make sense that, if not a Horcrux, at least a clue to it, will be in Godric's Hollow. Even if there's not, it's Harry's time to go there to continue on his spiritual journey. Plus, you know it's going to be important because it was mentioned in the first chapter of the series.



Solitaire - Feb 26, 2006 6:23 pm (#2814 of 2971)

it's Harry's time to go there to continue on his spiritual journey

I agree. Harry has frequently been criticized here on the forum for a lack of curiosity about his parents and their past. Perhaps he has not yet been ready, emotionally or spiritually, to learn what he needs to know ... until now.

Solitaire



LooneyLuna - Feb 27, 2006 6:03 am (#2815 of 2971)

I agree with you Aqualu & Solitaire. Perhaps learning about Voldemort's past has made Harry curious about his own.



cindysuewho45 - Mar 2, 2006 10:42 pm (#2816 of 2971)

Hi all, Well I just read book 3 over one more time! And there was something that stood out to me. It was that on page 406 Hermione said " But it must have been a really powerful wizard, to drive all those dementors away..." etc.. Then on page 412 she says, " Harry, I can't believe it.... You conjured up a Patronus that drove away all those dementors! That's very, very advanced magic...." I feel that when Hermione says she can't believe it. That is how some others feel too. However I feel that JKR has been showing us a little at a time to let us see just how very, very powerful Harry will end up being!



The giant squid - Mar 3, 2006 2:06 am (#2817 of 2971)

Yes, but that's contradicted in HBP when DD says that Harry could ride the boat in the cave with him because his power "would hardly register". Granted, there are probably very few wizards whose power level rivals DD's, but it's still an odd thing to say after everyone's been gushing about Harry's patronus & whatnot.

Unless...Dumbledore did that on purpose to keep Harry from getting too full of himself. Hearkening back to the "pampered prince" thing, DD would want to make sure Harry stays grounded as much as possible.

--Mike



Lina - Mar 3, 2006 3:22 am (#2818 of 2971)

I understood that DD's remark in HBP as if the boat doesn't "measure" the real power of the wizards but more in an administrative way. The boat "saw" them as an old wizard and an underage wizard, so it didn't see the potential harm hidden in them. The same was that the underage magic is not registered at the Ministry because there was a grown up wizard in the vicinity. That's the way that I look at that.



Caius Iulius - Mar 3, 2006 5:34 am (#2819 of 2971)

Apart from Lina's post on which I agree, Harry may be a powerful wizard on DADA, performing advanced magic, but not a very powerful wizard on the whole.



LooneyLuna - Mar 3, 2006 6:16 am (#2820 of 2971)

I agree with you Lina. I don't think we've seen the extent of Harry's power - only hints. You can't even compare Dumbledore to Harry - look at their age difference. Who knows what kind of student Dumbledore was? Sure Dumbledore did extraordinary things during exams, but we don't know what would be considered extraordinary in the Wizarding World.

Harry needs experience, something that Dumbledore had aplenty. I think what speaks volumes is Dumbledore's complete trust in Harry's abilities. "I'm not worried, I'm with you."

I think Harry is exceptional at Charms - maybe he'll charm the heart right out of Voldemort.



The One - Mar 3, 2006 7:48 am (#2821 of 2971)

In the beginning of HBP, DD says to Harry: "Do not worry, you are with me" (Not really a quote, but close enough)

Late in HBP he says "I don't worry, I am with you".

Is that a measure of Harry's powers late in HBP?

Or does it just mean tha he knows he can proteckt Harry if needed, as long as they are together?

To me it has always sounded like the first. But the fact is, when the going gets really tough he knocks out Harry and sacrifies himself.

Any thoughts?



Choices - Mar 3, 2006 11:11 am (#2822 of 2971)

I think that line is indicative of Dumbledore passing the reins to Harry. In the beginning, Dumbledore takes care of Harry, teaches him and brings him to fruition. Later in the book when Dumbledore tells Harry he is with him, I think that signifies that Dumbledore has passed the reins of power to Harry, and that from then on, it is up to Harry to go it alone.



Soul Search - Mar 3, 2006 1:01 pm (#2823 of 2971)

Choices, I think you are right. Dumbledore passed the reins to Harry. In fact, I will go a little futher and say that was the main purpose of HBP. We saw the beginnings of a different Harry after the funeral; he started to take charge of his life. We will see a very different Harry in book 7.



Aimee Shawn - Mar 3, 2006 9:52 pm (#2824 of 2971)

To put it tritely, Harry went into the cave a boy but emerged a man. DD knew it was now up to Harry to find the emotional, physical, and mental abilities to defeat Voldemort. DD's statement, "I'm not worried, I'm with you." was acknowledgement of the passing of the torch. DD knew it was now Harry's job to defeat LV and told him so very simply but eloquently. Whatever DD's fate, Harry now has to do the deed.



Lina - Mar 4, 2006 1:10 am (#2825 of 2971)

I like your description, Aimee Shawn



Die Zimtzicke - Mar 6, 2006 4:04 pm (#2826 of 2971)

I think Harry had to lose his mentor, to really start functioning on his own. I think he is powerful, but he had to learn to have faith in himself and his instincts. The love that defeats Voldemort may well be Harry's acceptance of who he is and what he has to do.



Muggle Doctor - Mar 9, 2006 7:24 am (#2827 of 2971)

After reading these posts, I have decided to summarize what I think Harry has to do in order to destroy Lord Voldemort.

1) Review Voldemort's past (his life, the things he's done, the things that shaped him).

2) Review his own past, likewise, and look for parallels, advantages it may give him and flaws he has to address.

3) Recognise and catalogue the skills he knows, which is what Hermione tried to get him to do by teaching the DA - if nothing else, it made him realise what an expert he was at Defence. I'd imagine not many people get bonus points in their OWLs; that's the equivalent of Hermione getting 102% for Flitwick's exam in First Year - PS/SS.

4) Recognise what he does not know and needs to know (and also what he doesn't know that doesn't matter!).

5) Learn from his friends. At the end of the day, it will be him versus Voldemort, one on one... and as it is his friends that have got him there, so it will be what he's incorporated and learned from them which will see him through. Here are their gifts, their legacy and in some cases the abilities that he must take on board.

Dumbledore - Has shown Harry his enemy, and also the true nature of the prophecy (he will kill Voldemort because his sense of justice/karma demands that he do it, not because the decision is out of his hands altogether). He has also shown Harry that he is competent - Harry having to apparate Dumbledore back to the vicinity of Hogwarts is probably the best thing that could have happened to him: "I'm not afraid, Harry; I'm with you." All the Outstanding NEWTS in the world could not have done as much for Harry as to hear those words. Harry has Dumbledore's belief in him to keep him going.

Ron Tells it like it is on a gut level; he can tell Harry he's being stupid. He is, as some have said, the strategist, in broad. As with the chessboard, he has the ability to know what must be done in a desperate situation, even though the cost is horrendous - he knows when the alternative to paying that price is worse. This is a nasty lesson for Harry to learn, but I think he will have to learn it - he may have to sacrifice one or more Order or DA members to reach his goal, with nobody knowing what he's done until it's over.

Hermione - is the smarts, the book, the researcher. She is Harry's staff officer; when the strategy has been calculated in broad, she works out all the niggling little details, the actual battle plan that must be distributed to the team (or the troops, Order or DA, if it comes to that). She works out the 'what ifs', and if Harry listens to her, there will be no more 'I told you so' at the end - and there had better not be, because nobody will be alive to tell it to him. Harry has to do what SF writer E.E. Smith described as learning "to think so it counts".

Neville - Even Neville has something to give him. Raw courage. Refusal to give up, whether by trying to stop the trio wandering off and losing Gryffindor house points in PS/SS ("Requires greater courage to stand up to your friends"), or (his worst nightmare) being tortured by Death Eaters in the Ministry ("Whatever happens, don't give it to them!"), or overcoming your terrible incompetence and incapability to meet a mounting threat (his stunning turnaround in capabilities with the DA; answering the coin's call and fighting in the Battle of Hogwarts in HBP, as well as the Battle of the Ministry in OOTP).

Luna - An ability to accept the implausible, to believe the unbelievable and to go beyond the limits of what one thinks is possible in search for the answers. An ethereal detachment, perhaps? A way of dealing with the terrible stress? (Recall how she seemed so limp and yielding in OOTP, such that her captor hardly bothered even to hold her?) She may give him the ability to be underestimated (which Voldemort's prone to doing anyway, but this only magnifies it).

Ginny - Love. In Ginny, he has someone who loves him for who he is and who can accept what he must do. In Ginny he has someone who reinforces the feelings of love that can save him. (There is a big component of animal lust, true, but in this case I think there's more underneath it.) Remember that whenever the dementors or Voldemort try to mess with his head, he thinks of the people he loves and his mind is safe. This is a point I think Snape has missed; Voldemort cannot use Legilimency on Harry or attempt to possess him if Harry is in the process of feeling love. And as with CoS, I think it may be love which drives, in some strange way, his vengeance on Voldemort.

Remember that DD referred to the power behind that locked Ministry door as both powerful and terrible, and also said that it was the power which Harry had in abundance that Voldemort did not, which had sent him to try to save Sirius, and (if I recall correctly) what drove Voldemort out of his mind in the Ministry. Harry will be fighting for more than Sirius (OOTP) or Ginny (CoS) when he comes up against Voldemort this time; he will be fighting for everyone.

I quote from the novels of Sara Douglass, particularly Crusader, in which the hero (who has gone through a quest of his own) states to the villain whom he has trapped (the embodiment of ultimate evil), "I offer you love, and love will be your destruction." Love, as personified by a creature whose identity I won't spoil, then consumes the trapped villain. I suggest that Voldemort will be weakened beyond the ability to resist, and that Harry will then deliver the coup de grace. "Either must die at the hand of the other."

Another quote, from SF novelist Jack Vance: the hero has captured a long-lived villain who used abominable means to lengthen his lifespan. "Once you told me you feared only death; now you are to die."

And a shove through the Veil would be nice. Maybe the battle won't take place in the Ministry... but what about apparating in, with a shattered Voldemort carried side-along, and a quick flick through?

And the epilogue? The End? If Harry is to die, or to leave the world (because, like Frodo Baggins, his experiences have changed him to the point where he can no longer live in it), maybe he should walk into that room whose door is always kept locked. What better way to achieve immortality, perhaps, than to join the power he possesses in such abundance with the identical, greater power behind the door? Just as Sirius' body never truly died in this world IMO (it and his soul passed together beyond the Veil), so too Harry may vanish from this world, body and soul together, and future generations can look to his achievements and feel guided by his spirit whenever a new evil arises to threaten the world (bad post-book-seven fanfiction, perhaps? LOL).



Mrs Brisbee - Mar 9, 2006 7:43 am (#2828 of 2971)

Muggle Doctor, that was an excellent summary.



Choices - Mar 9, 2006 11:26 am (#2829 of 2971)

I, too, enjoyed your summary Muggle Doc.

I noticed recently in rereading SS/PS that the four in the boat crossing the lake to Hogwarts were Harry, Ron, Hermione and Neville. I wonder if those will be the main ones who are with Harry at the end?



Steve Newton - Mar 9, 2006 11:37 am (#2830 of 2971)

I like it, Choices.



bigearl - Mar 9, 2006 2:03 pm (#2831 of 2971)

Muggle Doctor wrote "This is a point I think Snape has missed; Voldemort cannot use Legilimency on Harry or attempt to possess him if Harry is in the process of feeling love."

Don't overlook the important lesson Snape tried to teach Harry, while fleeing at the end of HBP, if he has no chance of defeating Snape without Occlumency, how can he expect to face the Dark Lord without mastering Occlumency.



LooneyLuna - Mar 9, 2006 6:42 pm (#2832 of 2971)

I don't think Harry can master Occlumency. I think Voldemort's defeat will be something akin to what happened in the Chamber of Secrets when Harry grabbed the basilisk fang and drove it into the diary. Harry didn't think about it, he just did it. So, it wasn't in his mind for others to see, via Occlumency.

Again, I don't think Harry can defeat Voldemort (or Snape for that matter) with a wand and spells. I expect Harry to do the unexpected - something he doesn't even realize he can do until the moment has come.



TheSaint - Mar 9, 2006 8:27 pm (#2833 of 2971)

Muggle Doctor..I like your summary. I agree regarding the research. I posted this on the Return to Hogwarts thread the other day..but I think it applies here:

I was rereading the other night and found Hermione's mention of all the old prophets being in the library most interesting. Seems to me if you are going to begin a quest, you might begin with research (as so many of us have). Perhaps Hogwarts will not open next 'year' but that does not mean the the Trio (and the Order for that matter) will not be taking advantage of the facilities.



jose043 - Mar 9, 2006 9:00 pm (#2834 of 2971)

Muggle Doctor, I agree with everything you have written. Harry will have to listen to his friends and the people who love him the most.

What Snape and LV don't realise is that Harry has got more true friends around him than they have, plus also the love from Ginny and DD, even though he is dead.

In the end the love and trust the kids have for each other will bring them through.

Josephine and Anne

PS Little werewolf's made me do it.



Solitaire - Mar 10, 2006 1:57 am (#2835 of 2971)

I like that you mention Ron as strategist, Muggle Doc. I often think Ron is overlooked and underestimated--occasionally even by Harry (as we saw in OotP, when he learned Ron was chosen Head Boy). He certainly does not see himself as gifted or even particularly intelligent ... even though his skill at chess would suggest otherwise. Thanks for reminding us.

Solitaire



dreamer of dreams - Mar 10, 2006 11:07 am (#2836 of 2971)

Please forgive me if I’m bringing up a subject that has been previously discussed. I’m new around here and as they say, I’m late to party.

At the end of OP Dumbledore tells Harry everything about the prophecy and how either Harry or Voldemort must die. That’s an enormous life changing burden and for anyone to be made aware of. It doesn’t get much bigger than that.

Knowing this fact and having the summer to let it marinate in his head, why is Harry even remotely concerned with such things as Professor Snape deducting points from Gryffindor. Wouldn’t Harry simply laugh in Snape’s face for doing something so meaningless by comparison? It’s not until the end of HBP that Harry makes the decision to focus only on killing Voldemort.

I’m very interested in this from a psychological perspective.



haymoni - Mar 10, 2006 11:30 am (#2837 of 2971)

I figured Harry knew that he was not ready to face Voldy. He had to go to school and I think he needed something "normal" in his life.

He couldn't get thrown out of Hogwarts or he wouldn't get the education/information he needed to defeat Voldy, so he may have been willing to follow the rules.

I think Harry felt safe at Hogwarts - Voldy wouldn't show up there, so he was able to relax a bit.

However, he became obsessed with Draco and that let him focus some of his anxiety elswhere.

I agree with you though - who cares about house points when your life is at stake???

I think that is why Harry isn't bothering to return to Hogwarts.



dreamer of dreams - Mar 10, 2006 12:41 pm (#2838 of 2971)

Haymoni – I agree with you. His obsession with Draco could be a way of focusing his anxiety. I would almost go to the extent that he was in some form of denial. Or maybe he simply did not comprehend the magnitude of what was he must face in the future. I guess, being in that situation, one would try to hold on to as much of a normal life as possible.

If Harry really is going to forgo his last year at Hogwarts, does he really think he’s ready to face Voldemort. Or is this another form of denial?



Esther Rose - Mar 10, 2006 12:43 pm (#2839 of 2971)

My guess is that Harry has been conditioned to the situation. He has been marked (literally and figuratively) since the day Voldemort darkened his doorstep in GH. Heck, Harry has been expecting Voldemort to just appear from around the corner for so long, Harry probably can't help but to think about the normal day to day stuff.

Plus, he was still under the protection of Dumbledore at the time.



Choices - Mar 10, 2006 6:06 pm (#2840 of 2971)

Maybe Harry is too preoccupied to think of Snape taking house points - but, even if it didn't matter much to Harry, it matters to his friends and fellow Gryffindors, so he would try not to lose points for their sake. I do think that Harry loves Hogwarts and loves being a Gryffindor, so I think he would try to do his best for his school and his house regardless of what is facing him.



Solitaire - Mar 11, 2006 2:37 pm (#2841 of 2971)

why is Harry even remotely concerned with such things as Professor Snape deducting points from Gryffindor. Wouldn’t Harry simply laugh in Snape’s face for doing something so meaningless by comparison?

Choices states it perfectly. Harry is still in school, he must play by the rules, and he cares deeply about his friends. Besides, not everyone knows about the Prophecy and the Horcruxes, and they wouldn't understand why Harry was deliberately (it might seem) jeopardizing their status at Hogwarts. More to the point, laughing in Snape's face is not going to endear Harry to anyone--including McGonagall, his Head of House, or Dumbledore, who always insists that Harry show Snape proper respect.

Solitaire



dreamer of dreams - Mar 11, 2006 4:55 pm (#2842 of 2971)

Solitaire - Hmmm, Maybe, but I'm not sure I ever read anything about Harry playing by any rules. Did I miss something somewhere? I was thinking, Harry is often in situations where those around him don't undstand what is going on, even his friends. One of his greatest strengths is that he stands by his convictions.

My best guess is that the magnitude of it all didn't really hit him until DD's funeral. To me that's when he realized he alone has to face Voldemort.

Then again, it could be me looking too hard for something.



LooneyLuna - Mar 11, 2006 5:30 pm (#2843 of 2971)

When Harry starts school in HBP, he's still a kid and worried about school issues - kid things. He believes there are adults "handling" the Voldemort problem so he puts it in the back of his mind. He focuses on Draco instead.

By the end of HBP, he's a man and ready to accept adult responsibility. That he, Harry, is the one who has hunt down the horcruxes and ultimately defeat Voldemort (with a little help from his friends). Not until the end of HBP, is Harry ready to accept this and more importantly, act.



Puck - Mar 12, 2006 5:15 am (#2844 of 2971)

Someday has become today. He may have "found" LV a few other times, but this will be the first time he actually goes looking for him.



cindysuewho45 - Mar 12, 2006 6:44 am (#2845 of 2971)

Hi all, Yes! Harry will be looking for them.(LV, Snape) Harry should be at full power about halfway into looking for all the horcruxes. Ron and Hermione etc. will help out with this. Then I'm thinking that Harry will go back to Hogwarts (its open) to help fight LV and DE's at the school. After all its where both Harry and LV feel like its there home. This is where all the houses could come together to help fight and save there school. But Harry and LV's last fight will be somewhere else. Will the love part of this be forgiving and soft or like a mother bear killing a lion to protect her young? I'm looking forward to seeing Harry as a adult wizard!!!!!



Muggle Doctor - Mar 16, 2006 6:03 am (#2846 of 2971)

Bigearl said

Muggle Doctor wrote "This is a point I think Snape has missed; Voldemort cannot use Legilimency on Harry or attempt to possess him if Harry is in the process of feeling love."

Don't overlook the important lesson Snape tried to teach Harry, while fleeing at the end of HBP, if he has no chance of defeating Snape without Occlumency, how can he expect to face the Dark Lord without mastering Occlumency.

Thanks for reminding me. I still think I'm right - if only because I think Snape is mistaken here. I do not think he truly understood (if indeed he knew) what went on between Harry and Voldemort in the Ministry, or how agonizing a place Harry's love-filled mind is for the Dark Lord. One thing he is right about - Harry must learn wordless magic. But the closure of Harry's mind is less important in the case of Voldemort, because there is something other than Occlumency that is capable of keeping Voldemort out.

I agree that he will need it in case he has to duel Snape to some sort of end (whether it be reconciliation, capture or death). And while he wants to, someone else may take the decision out of his hands - God knows there are plenty of aurors and other powerful wizards out there who loved Dumbledore and who would settle scores if they had the chance. Harry may have to take his ticket and line up.



Puck - Mar 16, 2006 8:04 am (#2847 of 2971)

LV may have trouble in Harry's mind, but his DE's won't. Wouldn't want Bella ti discover Harry's affection for various Weasley's!

Plus, mind reading is different from pocession. Simply reading Harry's thoughts may not effect LV in the same way.



Moo4Freedom - Mar 16, 2006 12:59 pm (#2848 of 2971)

Hate to play the broken record, but must concur with the others. Harry needs to learn how to close off his mind as soon as possible, especially is Snape has really, sob, switched back to the dark side.



Choices - Mar 16, 2006 6:01 pm (#2849 of 2971)

Shame on you, Moo!! Don't even think it.



LooneyLuna - Mar 16, 2006 6:56 pm (#2850 of 2971)

Again, I don't think Harry can close his mind, and I don't think Harry will need Occlumency to defeat Voldemort. I think it's pure love vs. an absence of love.

But if Harry is going to go after Snape, he'll need to employ Occlumency or avoid eye contact altogether to win in a wand duel. Although, I think Harry could/would win Snape over with pure emotion. Harry utilizing memories of his mother, Lily, when confronting Snape. Shades of Harry using his mother's memory to get the Horcrux memory from Slughorn in HBP.

Yes, I'm a Snape-unrequited-love-for-Lily shipper.


Harry Potter - Page 3 2134391180

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mona
Mona
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Posts 2851 to 2900

Post  Mona Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:07 am



Saracene - Mar 16, 2006 11:52 pm (#2851 of 2971)

From what I gather, Snape doesn't know yet that Harry knows about him carrying the prophecy to Voldemort and being partly responsible for his parents' deaths. So maybe Harry could Snape a bit of a jolt by letting him know that he knows.



cindysuewho45 - Mar 18, 2006 1:14 pm (#2852 of 2971)

Hi all, Well I am thinking that Harry may run into Snape one more time in book 7 or at lest hear something about him. After all Harry hates Snape almost as much as LV, at this point. But all in all the final book, more than likely will be about Harry and LV. Going full circle. I for one have always felt Harry was right about Snape being evil. But you are right about someone else getting to Snape be four Harry gets a chance to deal with him. And however it ends up, Harry doing in Snape and or LV. I feel that Harry will have all the power and skills he needs to get the job done. I'm thinking that Harry could have learned Occlumency if someone other than Snape was teaching him. So maybe someone in the Order will help him with it. Harry as a adult will have overcome his "I'm just Harry" view on things. He will have learned alot over the summer,while looking for and destroying things. We will be seeing a new Harry.



Solitaire - Mar 19, 2006 11:27 am (#2853 of 2971)

He will have learned alot over the summer,while looking for and destroying things. We will be seeing a new Harry.

Actually, I think Harry is going to have to learn a lot more and learn it before he heads out to look for and destroy the remaining Horcruxes. He needs to do some serious preliminary work beforehand. He must consider exactly what those other Horcruxes may be and where Voldemort would hide them. Dumbledore has given him some good places to start. However, this project is going to take some serious effort on Harry's part--the kind of academic, planning effort Harry has never really liked to bother doing. I think Hermione will be a great help in this endeavor, because she is great with research and history ... and that is what it will take to figure out the Horcrux puzzles.

I am also wondering which adult in the WW will be the one who determines how long Harry will have to remain in Dursley prison this summer. We know he must go back one more time. Will he have to stay until his seventeenth birthday--when he is considered and adult and can make his own decisions--or will someone spring him before then?

Surely Harry will not walk out of the Dursleys on his own, without any cover and protection. Like it or not, he still has a big, fat target on his head. Most of the protections Dumbledore put around him will have ended by the time of his birthday. He will be more vulnerable than ever, now that he is an adult and can perform magic outside Hogwarts. I suspect he will be under DE surveillance from the get-go.

Solitaire



cindysuewho45 - Mar 19, 2006 8:57 pm (#2854 of 2971)

Hi all, Yes I feel that Hermione will be a big help when it comes to preliminary work. Helping to think of good places to look for the Horcruxes and researching everything. And Ron may have some input on things too. I know the movies do not give him much credit, but he dose have more to say in the books. And I was thinking that Harry knows why DD needed him to go back to the Dursley's. And he may just go by the shortest amount of time DD ever let him spend there. So then the question would be how long was the shortest time Harry ever spent there? I'm thinking it was when he left to Ron's to go to the world cup. How much time was that? The only one who might be able to tell Harry anything, may be Lupin. But Harry knows that the others do not know about the Horcruxes. So he will be doing things on his own for the most part, for awhile anyway. He will have to start to trust some adult wizards to get more info. I think that if he lets Lupin in on when he is going to the wedding that he and mad-eye will be there for him and Tonks. But after that I think Harry will be letting them know things only when he wants and not takeing orders from anyone.



frogface - Mar 20, 2006 2:59 am (#2855 of 2971)

The shortest amount of time Harry spent with the Dursleys was in HBP. That was for about two weeks I think. I think he'll probably stay there until just before his birthday as that will give him a window of time in which he'll be safe and will be able to plan.



Puck - Mar 20, 2006 1:19 pm (#2856 of 2971)

Harry knows the Dursley's will be in danger once the protection wears off. No matter how horrid they were, he still won't want them harmed by LV or DE. He will leave before his birthday at least in part to keep them safe.



Finn BV - Mar 20, 2006 2:01 pm (#2857 of 2971)

Puck, will it be against the protection, though, for Harry to leave before his birthday? Doesn't he have to wait until he's been there long enough?

LOL, I can just see the Death Eaters waiting around impatiently outside the door to 4PD – "11:58… 11:59… come on now, just another minute, guys!"



haymoni - Mar 20, 2006 7:18 pm (#2858 of 2971)

Yes - I think that was Dumbledore's actual instructions - he had to stay until his birthday.

Perhaps Harry will apparate out of #4.



Aimee Shawn - Mar 20, 2006 7:56 pm (#2859 of 2971)

Actually Dumbledore says to the Dursleys, "I ask only this: that you allow Harry to return, once more, to this house, before his seventeenth birthday, which will ensure that the protection continues until that time." HBP, chapter 3, p.56 US edition.

I did not think it meant he had to say until his birthday but go to the house once more *before* his birthday. There seems to be no amount of days stated for the protection to be in place. Sounds to me like he could stop by for coffee then leave. What is your take on it?



Puck - Mar 20, 2006 8:26 pm (#2860 of 2971)

Perhaps dear old Auntie will ask him to stay until the birthday? She seemed a bit flipped out about him coming to age at 17. It was a shock to her. There has to be at least some kind of goodbye, not just "Well, hope you survive, but if not, oh well then."



Finn BV - Mar 21, 2006 6:04 am (#2861 of 2971)

Couldn't Harry have saved a bit of his summer if he had just stayed until August 1 of the summer that led up to his sixth year? That way, he would have been there once when he was 16.



Mrs Brisbee - Mar 21, 2006 6:15 am (#2862 of 2971)

I'm not really sure what the point of Harry going back is at all. The protection expires on August 1st anyway. Must be a plot point waiting to happen, or something.



Solitaire - Mar 21, 2006 7:09 am (#2863 of 2971)

I think Aimee is correct. I do not remember Dumbledore giving a deadline for how long Harry had to stay. It seems that a very short time might suffice ... although Harry may actually prefer the safety of the Dursley house this year, as it will give him some time to plan his strategies.

I'm dying to know whether Ron and Hermione will show up while he is still there ... to help him plan. Hermione would obviously be able to handle the Dursleys, but Ron ... hm. To be honest, I half expect either Mr. Weasley or Remus--maybe even several Order members--to show up on the day Harry is set to leave.

I also wonder if Harry won't eschew apparating in favor of his Firebolt at some point. Remember that he didn't really like apparating, and he is a great flyer with the very best broom. Do you suppose that his flying skills may play some part in his defeat of Voldemort? (Note that I'm assuming Harry will defeat him.) Wasn't fake Barty the one who told him to play to his strengths in the Tournament?

Solitaire



haymoni - Mar 21, 2006 7:11 am (#2864 of 2971)

Yes, Solitaire - I could see him "pulling a Weasley" as he blasts out of #4 Privet Drive for the last time!!

I am smiling at the thought!



Puck - Mar 21, 2006 7:36 am (#2865 of 2971)

Of course, he would have to use his cloak if leaving on a firebolt.

I think he has to return each summer in order to call Privet drive "home", and it must be considered his home -or at least his residence- for the protectio to work.



Soul Search - Mar 21, 2006 7:43 am (#2866 of 2971)

My read was that the trio will stay together. Ron and Hermione will accompany Harry to #4 Privet Drive and Godric's Hollow. They will all be at the wedding, of course (I am worried about the wedding. Too many good-side people all in one place: an attractive target.)

Could be fun, though, Ron an Herminoe at #4 Privet Drive. Ron and Hermione will be of age. Hermione, at least, won't take any crap from the Dursleys.

They could even use #4 as a base of operations while they visit Godric's Hollow and search for horcruxes. #4 does have a lot of protections, especially for Harry. Harry won't want to use #12 Grimmauld Place, although they will visit it. Using the Burrow would worry Molly, everytime they went off someplace.



bigearl - Mar 21, 2006 9:06 am (#2867 of 2971)

I can't see Harry staying at #4 PD for more than 24 hours, just long enough for to find out what secrets Aunt Petunia has kept hidden. Perhaps find out who "that awful boy" (who spoke to Lily of Dementors) was, I'm thinking it wasn't James but Wormtail or Snape.

Harry may not like #12GP very much, but he hates #4 PD more.



Aimee Shawn - Mar 21, 2006 10:23 am (#2868 of 2971)

I agree, Bigearl. I think the Dursley's, also, would not permit Ron and Hermione to stay for a protracted visit - even overnight. Much as Harry hates 12GP, I think they must use it for a staging area over the summer.



Solitaire - Mar 21, 2006 11:15 am (#2869 of 2971)

Too many good-side people all in one place: an attractive target

Alas, Soul Search, I agree.

I hadn't thought about 12GP--since Harry hates it so much--but it would be a good, safe alternative to 4PD. One of my questions is this: Do all of the protections on 4PD evaporate the minute Harry turns 17? Those protections would be Dumbledore's, right? If they do end at that time, then 12GP might actually be safer for Harry & Co. Lily's protections might linger indefinitely, though. But are hers bound strictly to 4PD ... since they are "blood protections"? Or are they bound with Harry himself?

Dumbledore surely used other protections on besides Lily's. I figure 4PD must have had some additional enchantments on the property alone, and these are probably what will stop. Sorry if I sound like I am raving ...

Solitaire



Steve Newton - Mar 21, 2006 1:31 pm (#2870 of 2971)

HBP was the first book that didn't end with Harry on his way back to Privet Drive. I think that, perhaps, the big adventure will be on the way to the Dursley's. If Harry waits until August 1 to leave it would certainly seem to be a good time for an ambush. Who ambushes whom might be hard to figure out.



Caius Iulius - Mar 21, 2006 1:45 pm (#2871 of 2971)

I would like to see uncle Vernon's face when he discovers that Harry has invited to wizards to stay at nr. 4 for a couple of days.



haymoni - Mar 21, 2006 1:51 pm (#2872 of 2971)

Steve - maybe Ron & Hermione will accompany Harry from Hogwarts to #4. They'll make their appearance - they may not stay for long. I could see the Trio then heading to the Burrow. Perhaps the attack would happen then.

Voldy knows he can't touch Harry while he's at #4 - he may not try to waste his time with him there.



TheSaint - Mar 21, 2006 2:52 pm (#2873 of 2971)

I was thinking they would just be apparating on a daily basis. They can work on the mystery together and then go home to sleep. Can you imagine the Dursley's face when three of 'them' come marching down the stairs!



Aimee Shawn - Mar 21, 2006 4:16 pm (#2874 of 2971)

Only Hermione has passed the apparating test when HBP ended. Ron failed the test and Harry was too young. That isn't to say they wouldn't apparate!

I agree with Steve. I think we left the HBP before they left school. Book 7 will be about the summer. Perhaps the trio will have the whole thing sorted out and LV dead before school begins! Tee hee hee!



cindysuewho45 - Mar 22, 2006 12:16 am (#2875 of 2971)

Hi all, I agree that Harry will be doing a lot this summer. JKR said that she was going to put in the first 2 chapters, but so much was in them that she had to make them into 4 chapters. So I feel that Harry will only be staying about a week or so. Then he will be off, looking for info.. I think what she said was, Harry could not do all that in just 2 chapters. I'll look it up.



cindysuewho45 - Mar 22, 2006 9:36 am (#2876 of 2971)

Hi all, Just some thoughts. I was just reading in Chamber of Secrets, page 85, where it says " but his mounth at the Burrow had been the happiest of his life." So even back then he did not need to stay all that long, for DD's and Lily's magic to work.



Choices - Mar 22, 2006 10:58 am (#2877 of 2971)

Cindysue, I could be wrong, but I don't think Lily had anything to do with the protection at #4 Privet Drive. Lily's protection was on Harry himself (she gave him this protection by sacrificing her life for him), and Dumbledore's protection was on the Dursley's house (to keep Harry safe as long as he was able to return there each summer).



TheSaint - Mar 22, 2006 11:31 am (#2878 of 2971)

I thought the protection had to do with 'where Lily's blood resides' regardless of what house they are in?



frogface - Mar 22, 2006 11:32 am (#2879 of 2971)

Yes, the confusion lies in the fact that the protection works through Harry's relation to Aunt Petunia, which of course, is through Lily.



Choices - Mar 22, 2006 7:44 pm (#2880 of 2971)

My point was that Lily did not go to the Dursley house and place a protective charm on it - Dumbledore did that. Lily's sacrifice of her life for Harry placed the protection on him.



cindysuewho45 - Mar 22, 2006 11:35 pm (#2881 of 2971)

Hi all, Yes it was Lily that sacrificed her life out of love, But then it was DD that used the blood charm or spell to keep Harry safe up to his 17th year at his Aunt Petunia's home. I think it was LV that said what Lily did was old magic. So DD used what Lily did to make it last longer. Thats the way I was reading it. So it is all part of the same old magic that came from love. Both Lily and DD were part of it.



Laura W - Mar 23, 2006 1:56 am (#2882 of 2971)

Interesting point, cindysue. I think you might be right, although I'm not exactly positive if we are talking about the *same* old magic in both cases. I expect we are but am not sure, based on the quotes I will now provide from GoF, chapter entitled The Death Eaters.

Voldemort is explaining to Lucius Malfoy what happened on the night he killed James and Lily. Among other things, he says, "His mother died in the attempt to save him - and unwittingly provided him with a protection I had not forseen ... His mother left upon him the traces of her sacrifice ... this is old magic, I should have remembered it, I was foolish to overlook it ..."

And a few pages later, he says to the DE, "But how to get at Harry Potter? ... For he has been better protected than I think even he knows, protected in ways devised by Dumbledore long ago ... Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his relations' care. Not even I can touch him there ..."

I know we are all such nit-pickers (but it's just because we care, right?), but the words "devised by Dumbledore" and "Dumbledore invoked" may mean that the ancient magic used to protect Harry at the Dursley's was a different old magic than the one "left upon" our young wizard "unwittingly" by his mother's sacrifice.

Or maybe not.

Two spells? One spell? A variation of a single spell? Is there canon somewhere else in the books that clarifies this better than the one I provided? Or is this simply open to interpretation?

Hmmm. Now you've got me thinking, cindysue.

Laura



TheSaint - Mar 23, 2006 4:19 am (#2883 of 2971)

Possiblyjust a way to extend the protection of his mother's blood to include all those with the same blood?



haymoni - Mar 23, 2006 6:22 am (#2884 of 2971)

Actually Lily's bit wasn't a "spell" it was more of a "result".

Dumbledore really wasn't too certain why Harry lived - he had 11 years to think about it before he had to tell Harry his ideas - I think he provided Harry with the best protection he could think of at the moment.



Choices - Mar 23, 2006 11:56 am (#2885 of 2971)

I really like the idea that Lily, who was excellent at charms, had placed a protective (old magic) charm on Harry prior to the Voldemort incident. The charm remained dormant (so to speak) until it could be activated and what activated it was Lily's sacrificial death. Her giving up her life for Harry activated the charm and protected Harry from harm - in this case, the AK curse. This is not my theory, but one I read a long time ago and really liked.



Finn BV - May 5, 2004 6:58 pm (#2886 of 2971)

If Lily had placed a charm on Harry, why wouldn't she have done so on James and herself as well? Or do you think she placed this charm on Harry just minutes or so before the incident?



Laura W - Mar 23, 2006 2:53 pm (#2887 of 2971)

Choices wrote:

I really like the idea that Lily, who was excellent at charms, had placed a protective (old magic) charm on Harry prior to the Voldemort incident. The charm remained dormant (so to speak) until it could be activated and what activated it was Lily's sacrificial death. Her giving up her life for Harry activated the charm and protected Harry from harm - in this case, the AK curse. This is not my theory, but one I read a long time ago and really liked.

Hmm. I'm still kind of hung up over LV's use of the words "unwittingly provided him with a protection." Unless somebody has a different dictionary than I do, there can be little doubt as to the definiton of "unwittingly" and it's the opposite of "deliberately placing a charm on."

On the other hand, there are two possible ways I can think of that your theory could be correct:

1. LV is just *assuming* the ancient magic was transferred to Harry automatically when his mother died for him and is not aware that she protected him with the spell in advance. Or

2. LV was lying to the DEs about exactly how Harry was protected and defeated him (LV) in the process. I have a feeling that lying to achieve his ends comes completely naturally to Tom Riddle - and always has. Maybe this is just that.

My galleons are still on the idea that Lily's love and sacrifice protected Harry without her realizing that would happen. But I could be proven wrong. When it comes to predicting what will happen in these books - even what will happen on a page-by-page basis -, I usually am.

Laura



Choices - Mar 23, 2006 6:23 pm (#2888 of 2971)

As I said, it is not my theory. I just happen to like it whether or not it is true. I suppose the "unwittingly" could be explained by Voldemort just not knowing exactly what happened. He could just not have wanted to give Lily - a silly girl - that much credit for fooling him. It is also possible that Voldemort is lying.

I think Lily did not put charms on herself and James because she figured they could fight Voldemort - they had three times before - but, Harry was a baby and couldn't defend himself.



Potter Ace - Mar 29, 2006 9:41 am (#2889 of 2971)

Perhaps the charm that was placed upon Harry was something like an insurance policy. Being a parent, whether witch or muggle., you take certain steps to ensure that your children are protected should you meet an untimely death. In our world, we have guardians and trust funds, perhaps in the world of Magic, they have charms that provide a shield of protection when faced with mortal peril. Granted growing up with no parents is horrible, but from Lily and James's point of view, Harry lived and that is (assuming) what they planned on happening.



Choices - Mar 29, 2006 11:01 am (#2890 of 2971)

I think we have to assume that Lily and James were aware of the prophesy, and even if they died, it was important that Harry live. They were experienced Voldemort fighters and they knew that possibly Harry was the one who would finally finish him off. It was vital that Harry live - I think they took no chances in assuring that he would.



cindysuewho45 - Mar 31, 2006 11:23 pm (#2891 of 2971)

Hi all, Where did JKR say that Harry will be in his 7th and last year in book 7? I have been thinking about this, but can not remember where I read it. Because this would mean that he will be in school. Just some thoughts. I'm thinking that Harry will be destroying most of the Horcruxes in the summer.



Finn BV - Apr 1, 2006 8:37 am (#2892 of 2971)

There's no citation, but at the Lex it says, "Harry will be in his seventh and final year in book seven. The events of book seven will take place between July 31, 1997 and the end of the school year, which presumably will be June, 1998." You might want to ask them where they were confirmed of this.



Madame Pomfrey - Apr 1, 2006 12:52 pm (#2893 of 2971)

I can't see Harry not attending Hogwarts.We know that Jo wrote her last quidditch game in book 6 but I think that school will be open and he will probably need to find a horcrux or two there.



Soul Search - Apr 1, 2006 4:48 pm (#2894 of 2971)

Harry has a lot to do, but I still think he will attend clases at Hogwarts. We know that he, Ron, and Hermione will be sticking together over the summer, and I don't hink Harry could talk Hermione or Mrs. Weasley into them skipping school. Ron, of course, would be all for it.



The giant squid - Apr 2, 2006 1:45 am (#2895 of 2971)

I think the Lex just used deductive reasoning--the first 6 books have taken place in the Hogwarts year of the same number (does that make sense?), so it was assumed that book 7 would do the same. The fact that the books are marked as "Year 1", "Year 2", etc. lends credence to this as well. If book 7 takes place in the summer before Harry's seventh eyar at Hogwarts (as some have speculated) what would they put on the spine? "Year 6 1/2"?

--Mike



LooneyLuna - Apr 2, 2006 10:37 am (#2896 of 2971)

To me, it makes sense if Hogwarts is Harry's base of operations. He's safer there than anywhere else, he has loads of books, potion ingredients, and teachers at his disposal.

When Professor Sprout said that the school should remain open even if only one student would attend, I immediately thought of Harry.

I don't think Harry would return to Hogwarts to take formal classes, but to do independent study and one-on-one tutoring with certain teachers.



Bruno Willey - Apr 2, 2006 10:26 pm (#2897 of 2971)

I agree with LooneyLuna Harry is definatly going to return Howarts but not as an offical student he will most probably attend in a part-time arangement receiving one-on-one tutoring from the teachers in areas he might need it, probably to help in learning specific spells for certain tasks in his Horcruxe hunt. As well as hogwarts acting as a safe house when he is not out searching. Harry's time is too valuable for him to spend all of it in classes or doing homework(Assuming the book spans one year and at the end of the year Harry will have done the deed) Harry knows a fair amount about what the Horcruxes might be but where they are is a whole new ball game. Harry's time gonna be split between finding the Horcruxes, figuring out how to destroy them(Which may entail trips to Hogwarts for information and training) and detroying Voldemort, i don't see much spare time for 'Not paying attention in Charms' and 'Copying Hermiones DADA essay'!!!

Bruno out



Bruno Willey - Apr 5, 2006 8:01 pm (#2898 of 2971)
Edited Apr 5, 2006 9:05 pm

Hello me again I don't like doubling up posts but I think while discussing what Harry is going to do next year we also need to address How he is going to do it?

This is how my train of thought on the matter goes. Harry is quite determined to begin his search for the Horcruxes now, but how does he hope to over come the challengers and traps that Voldemort has set around the them, when he cannot even cast non-verbal spells yet.

I give Harry credit he has within him a fair amount of magical power ie, strong flyer, corporeal patronus, throw of imperius curse and he can throw up a sheild charm pretty fast. But the complex spells and enchantments he will face will require complex counter-spells ie Dumbledores 'Ring of Fire' that surrounds himself and Harry and protects them from the inferi when the are retrieving the locket Horcrux. Harry just dosen't know that level of magic yet and without some serious tutorage I don't think he will have the knowledge to get past the protections that surround the Horcruxes.

Dumbledore has told Harry many times that he posseses a magic that Voldemort does not which is further shown in the prophecy

But he will have a power the dark lord knows not

But will this power help him in battling for his life against dark spells, enchanments and who knows what else?

Don't get me wrong I think Harry has got plenty of guts, a cool head under pressure and like I said, holds vast amounts of hidden magical power but that can only get him so far if he dosen't have a nice arsenal of spells to back it up.

Any other theories as to how Harry is gonna jucie himself up for that long and no doubt hard road ahead??

Bruno Out



Robert Dierken - Apr 6, 2006 11:09 am (#2899 of 2971)

I'm dying to know whether Ron and Hermione will show up while he is still there ... to help him plan. Hermione would obviously be able to handle the Dursleys, but Ron ... hm. Solitaire #2863

I think that the Dursley's are terrified of men with red hair since GoF.



cindysuewho45 - Apr 7, 2006 4:52 am (#2900 of 2971)
Edited Apr 7, 2006 7:08 am

Hi all, I think that JKR has put a lot of good info. and time into the summers, before school starts in the past, with the world cup game etc.. The dementor's that went after Harry and Dudley, then off to stay with the Order, etc.,In book 1 she had 6 chapters, then school. In book 2 there were only 4 chapters,and 5 chapters in book 3,then school. There were 10 chapters pre. school in book 4, there are nine chapters in book 5, before school ever got started. And in book 6 we had 7 chapters, then school. So a lot can happen as we know before Hogwarts 7th year gets off to a start. JKR has talked about there being more to Aunt Petunia than meet's the eye, so we should find out what that is and how it will effect Harry.Then off to Bill and Fleur's wedding. And Harry, Ron and Hermione will be off to James and Lily's old house, to look around. Harry will end up talking to Aberforth and I feel Harry will get some good info. from him, a place to start so to say. Harry will end up meeting more people from the Order maybe to get memories from them. Harry could get a old memory of Regulus (RAB) from Aberforth. Harry could end up finding 2 or 3 of the Horcruxes before school even gets started. Like I was saying, JKR had 9 chapters at the start of book 5 before school was going on. Then with all the info. that Harry will have come by, it could bring him to Hogwarts and going to school could be a good cover. I think that Horcruxes being there would be the only reason that Harry would go to school. He would not want to put anyone in danger with him being there. Even if we know that he would be safe there, he will be thinking of others, not himself. No one is to know what Harry is looking for or even that he is looking for anything. I'm thinking that there are 2 horcruxes at the school. It could take most of the year for him to find them. Maybe the tiara in the room of requirements on the 7th floor. And also the silver and opal necklace that has killed all those people and almost 1 more, it is still at the school too. And with Harry at school it will make it easier for the Order , the school and houses, the DA and all Harry's friends and loved ones, and Ginny to help and be part of all of it. So that would just leave 1 to find latter on ,before Harry has to face LV. Just one more thought about the silver and opal necklace, Snape is the last one to have it, so if it is not at the school in his old office, classroom or bedroom. It will be with Snape, and Harry will have to face him before he can go on to find LV.

Harry Potter - Page 3 2134391180

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mona
Mona
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Posts 2901 to 2950

Post  Mona Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:48 am



frogface - Apr 7, 2006 8:29 am (#2901 of 2971)

I doubt Harry will find more than one horcrux before September. Look how long it took Dumbledore to find the ring and the fake necklace. This isn't going to be easy for Harry. It'll be the biggest challenge he's ever faced, and I think its going to take him at least a year to find the remaining Horcruxes.



MzWhizz123 - Apr 8, 2006 5:27 pm (#2902 of 2971)

I wonder...if the whole "Harry-is-an-Accidental-Horcrux" Theory is true, do you think it would help Harry find the other horcruxes? Sort of a magnetism?

...as he approached the ________ the hair on the back of Harry's neck stood up. He knew something was there...



cindysuewho45 - Apr 9, 2006 9:18 pm (#2903 of 2971)

Hi all, Some feel that Harry could be a horcruxe, But I for one have never felt that way. It just has never made any since to me at all. In the first place, LV was going there to kill Harry not put a pice of his own soul in him that needed to be kept safe for all time. And if that was not the deal and LV did plan to make Harry a horcruxe, then why would he try and kill him after he had done it? This just will not work! However, like I said some people have fun with this theory. I am not one of them.



TheSaint - Apr 10, 2006 3:48 am (#2904 of 2971)

No one said he wanted to make Harry a horcrux. He went there to make a horcrux after Harry's death! Significant death...make a horcrux. Harry being a horcrux would be a side effect of the bounced AK! An accident. Volde would not know.



Madame Pomfrey - Apr 10, 2006 9:49 am (#2905 of 2971)
Edited Apr 10, 2006 10:52 am

IF Harry's scar is a horcrux, the only way I can see it happen is the way Rosemorninstar explained it on the horcrux thread.Harry's scar being the last remaining horcrux(unknown to both Voldemort and Harry)Voldemort firing an AK at Harry hitting the scar,destroying the horcrux and causing a rebound killing Voldemort in much the same way Harry vanquished Voldemort the first time only this time it is for good.I am really fond of this theory because it destroys only the scar horcrux (not Harry) and Harry will destroy Voldemort without raising his wand or using an unforgivable.



Choices - Apr 10, 2006 10:14 am (#2906 of 2971)

That would definitely be "clean and neat", Madame. I do not want to see Harry dead at the end of the book, so I like this idea.



Madame Pomfrey - Apr 10, 2006 7:07 pm (#2907 of 2971)

Me too choices! I don't care if his death does save the wizarding world it would hurt my heart and I like books that leave you with a good feeling. No matter how well it is written I couldn't see Harry's death leaving me feeling that way.



TheSaint - Apr 10, 2006 7:42 pm (#2908 of 2971)
Edited Apr 10, 2006 8:43 pm

Chapter twenty three....

The clues are here. "But there could be no doubt that Riddle really wanted that diary read, wanted the piece of his soul to INHABIT OR POSSESS SOMEBODY ELSE (emphasis mine)."

Voldemort was still at least one horcrux short of his goal of six when he entered your parents' (must have been thiers) house with the intention of killing you. "He seems to have reserved the process of making Horcruxes for particularly significant deaths. You would certainly have been that. He believed that in killing you, he was destroying the danger the prophecy had outlined. He believed he was making himself invincible. I am sure he was INTENDING to make the final Horcrux with your death (emphasis mine)." Someone had stated earlier that the ultimate Horcrux would be to implant a piece of your soul in your enemy..as the only way he can then kill you is to die himself.

You can use animals as horcruxes? "Well, it is inadvisable to do so, because to confide a part of your soul to something that can think and move for itself is obviously a very risky business." Boy wouldn't that be true. A piece of Voldemort's soul, simmering in all that love, all these years. Would take the ultimate sacrifice to destroy the last Horcrux...and as we saw in the ministry..Harry is more than willing. The veil is calling.

'Voldemort singled you out as the person who would be most dangerous to him - and in doing so, he MADE you the person who would be most dangerous to him (emphasis hers).

Without his horcruxes, Voldemort will be a mortal man with a maimed and dimished soul. never forget, though, that while his soul may be DAMAGED BEYOND REPAIR... So the soul pieces definately do not return to Voldemort when destroyed, and he does not feel it.

I also wondered, "...Wizards of a certain caliber have always been drawn to that aspect of magic." Wonder who else has dabbled in horcruxes. DD suggests that any previous person has made but one.

Triumphant gleam in Dumbledore's eyes... Perhaps Harry has a little horcrux of his own.



MzWhizz123 - Apr 10, 2006 8:31 pm (#2909 of 2971)

The Saint--Your comment about a horcrux "simmering in all that love" was haunting. Although I agree that Harry would sacrifice himself if he knew he held the final key to LV's demise, I can also imagine Harry destroying the other three and facing LV thinking he had missed one, then watching in amazement as the final horcrux proceeded to destroy LV from within. Kind of creepy, huh?



Solitaire - Apr 11, 2006 9:31 am (#2910 of 2971)

I am really fond of this theory because it destroys only the scar horcrux (not Harry) and Harry will destroy Voldemort without raising his wand or using an unforgivable

I, too, hope Voldemort can be finished off without Harry having to resort to an Unforgivable Curse to do it. Alas, I am not so optimistic as you. I find it hard to believe the scar can be destroyed without destroying the head on which the scar resides ... killing Harry in the process.

More and more, although I hope I am wrong, I tend to think Harry will ultimately have to die. I believe that may be why the stories are told (with a few individual chapter exceptions) in the Limited Omniscient point of view rather than in First Person Narrative ... because the "first person" (Harry) is no longer alive to tell them.

Solitaire



Madame Pomfrey - Apr 11, 2006 7:23 pm (#2911 of 2971)

Ohh..Solitaire, I do hope you are wrong. I'm looking forward to a happy ending and I know I'll be very heartbroken if Harry dies.It will ruin the book for me.



Solitaire - Apr 11, 2006 9:35 pm (#2912 of 2971)
Edited Apr 11, 2006 10:36 pm

Madame Pomfrey, I'll tell you what really started me thinking seriously on this. First, I confess to being one of the few on this site who has not read the Lord of the Rings series OR seen the three movies. I do, however, know a little about it. Anyway, on Sunday morning, I was lying in bed and turned on the TV. There were about twenty minutes or so left of Return of the King. For some reason, I stopped to watch ...

There was something about that ending that made me think about Harry. When I considered all of the parallels I've seen drawn between LOTR and the HP series, I began to think that, at the conclusion of the final battle, Harry is probably going to meet with Dumbledore, and the two of them--and maybe even James, Lily, and Sirius--will head together into their next great adventure.

Then again, I have not read the LOTR series or watched all of the movies, so maybe I'm full of Cockroach Clusters!

Solitaire



cindysuewho45 - Apr 12, 2006 6:23 am (#2913 of 2971)
Edited Apr 12, 2006 7:42 am

Hi all, well here are some more thoughts about Harry being a Horcrux. 1.If LV killed James or Lily for the significant death, then made Harry a Horcrux, LV would never want to kill Harry or it would destroy a part of his soul. 2. If LV was going to use Harry for the significant death, he would have to have killed Harrry then done the charm or spell for the Horcrux. And put it into something there at the house or something that LV brought with him to the house. And LV may have been thinking that way, but the AK bounced back at him, because of Lily, love and old magic. 3. If LV did not try to kill Harry, before he tried to make a Horcrux and the Horcrux charm or spell bounced and hit Harry as a side effect then when LV tried to kill him it bounced back and hit LV almost killing him. That would make everything that DD ever told Harry about how his Mom saved him with her LOVE wrong! I feel that JKR wants love to be a big part of all of this. 4. The theory that I read about Harry's scar being a Horcrux and at the end of the book LV hits it with a AK and it kills LV and Harry lives is good, but again that would make everything that DD said about Lily being the reason, Love ,old magic etc.. wrong, and I just do not feel that DD was wrong about that one. Even LV said the same thing about Lily saving Harry. Also I know that Harry may die, however I do not feel that he will. I think that the chances of someone like Ginny, Hermione or Ron are much more likely. Just my thoughts and opinions, I do like reading all of yours even if I do not agree with all of them all the time.



Gemini 13 - Apr 12, 2006 6:48 am (#2914 of 2971)

Maybe Harry will die but it will be much like Aslan (sp?) in the "The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe". He sacrificed himself to save someone else and because of that he was able to live. Maybe we could see something similar?



Choices - Apr 12, 2006 8:03 am (#2915 of 2971)

Solitaire, I almost think I could accept Harry's death if, like you described, he was reunited with Lily, James, Dumbledore and Sirius and they all went off together to the next great adventure. At least he would be with the ones he loves most and wouldn't be alone. However, I hope he survives somehow and can get on with his life with Ginny (or whoever) and remains steadfast friends with Ron and Hermione.



Potter Ace - Apr 12, 2006 8:48 am (#2916 of 2971)
Edited Apr 12, 2006 10:00 am

Gemini13, I do not think that the comparasion to L,W,W can be made as C.S. Lewis was really telling nothing more than the story of Jesus Christ and per JKR, dead is dead, so there will be no reincarnation or rebirth for Harry, should he die (I think he will). I think Solitaire is more on point with the LOTR comparasion, religious angle aside, Tolkien never wrote another story for the LOTR series, but Lewis wrote many more. If JKR wishes to move on to other stories, the story will need to end, and floating off into the sunset with the ones you love isn't such a bad way to go.



Gemini 13 - Apr 12, 2006 8:57 am (#2917 of 2971)

Potter Ace: that is true. I guess I see it as "anything can happen". We've seen some pretty extrodinary things happen in these books, so I guess only time will tell.



Solitaire - Apr 12, 2006 12:20 pm (#2918 of 2971)

Please don't get me wrong ... I have grown to love Harry and the Trio the way I love other literary heroes of mine--Elizabeth Bennet, Inspector Morse, Jane Marple, Peter Wimsey ... I want the entire Trio and all of those wonderful Weasleys to survive and grow old. I want Remus and Tonks to marry and live long, happy lives. I want Harry to find the love, comfort, and respect he never had growing up with the Dursleys.

Unfortunately, I don't think Jo believes in giving us an ending with a big, red bow tied around it. I think more people we love are going to die--as they do in real wars. I also believe that, if Harry is truly a Horcrux--as so many seem to have decided he is--then he will be sacrificed in the process of destroying Voldemort. If he turns out not to be a Horcrux--which is my hope--then maybe there is a chance for him to survive.

The truth is that no one really knows what will happen in the end. Harry's fate was apparently decided by Jo a long time ago. All we can do is wait. Grrrrrrrrr ...

Solitaire



Die Zimtzicke - Apr 13, 2006 8:49 am (#2919 of 2971)

I do think Harry will go on the next great adventure, with his mother, and father, and Sirius and Dumbledore. All he's ever wanted is his own family back. It was his desire when he looked into the mirror, and it still is his strongest desire in my opinion. He should get that. If it were done well, it would be a great ending.

Those statements about death, that there are worse things, and that those we love don't ever leave us, that it's the next great adventure must mean something. There's too many of them.

What's wrong with a beautiful afterlife after a job well done?



frogface - Apr 13, 2006 8:55 am (#2920 of 2971)

I posted this on the Harry Potter and In The End threads because its relevant to both discussions going on.

I'm in two minds about Harry dying. I've suspected from the beggining that he may well die, mainly because of things like the Mirror of Erised and Grim (in a sense) popping up. Some people seem to think that this would send out a negative message. I however, disagree. I think it sends out of positive message of bravery and strength, and teaches people the value of sacrifice. 1000's of men died in the 2nd world war, but I doubt that stops people thinking that they would also stand up to the Nazi's if they were alive at the time.

At the same time I think Harry doesn't need to die to aqquire the family he desperately wants. He already has a family, in Ron, Hermione, Ginny, Lupin, Tonks and everyone else who cares for him. The fact that this family isn't related by blood makes them no less of a family in my mind.



Die Zimtzicke - Apr 13, 2006 9:27 am (#2921 of 2971)

I agree it would NOT have to be a negative message, and to tell the truth, unless you stick to Disneyfied versions, a hero usually dies at the end of his quest.

But I disagree about family. Harry has never said he wanted to be a Weasley, or Lupin's son or whatever. (Actually, he resisted Molly having any motherly rights over him at all.) He has always wanted his OWN family, and Jo seemed to be using Luna in OotP to say that the ones we love never really leave us, but wait for us on the other side.



azi - Apr 13, 2006 10:35 am (#2922 of 2971)

I also agree that Harry dying would not be a negative message. However, I am fed up with almost every book I read having the same basic plotline; underdog in the world, discovers they are special, overcomes adversity, maybe falls in love, new life threatened by evil forces, dies for their cause in the end - the ultimate sacrifice. I'm beginning to think that if Harry survives I will be glad of the change. However, I find it difficult to envisage a situation where Harry does survive.

I'm undecided on the family thing.



frogface - Apr 13, 2006 11:29 pm (#2923 of 2971)

I think you're talking the word family a little too literally there. By family I mean a group of people who love you. He doesn't need distinct Parental rolemodels in his life to have a family. He's pretty much outgrown that now anyway. Harry doesn't need to actually say what he wants for us to consider it anyway, people rarely say what they actually think in my opinion, so it would be quite unrealistic, not to mention un-Harry like for him to say "I want to be part of the Weasley family".

There have been times (in OotP I assume you are refering) where Harry has been annoyed by Molly mothering him, but I think that most of the time he accepts it from her. That hug he so desperately needed in GoF for instance, not to mention staying at the Burrow for three Summer holidays and a Christmas.



The giant squid - Apr 14, 2006 3:11 am (#2924 of 2971)

I agree, frogface. Also, I think most of the times he's been "bothered" by Molly's mothering was because he was so unused to it. He's never (since he was a year old, anyway) had someone who wanted to fuss over him. It can be quite embarrassing to a teenage boy when his own mom pesters him; when it's his best friend's mom it's even worse.



Mediwitch - Apr 14, 2006 2:26 pm (#2925 of 2971)

I think there are times when most of us are annoyed by our mothers (or mother-figures) mothering us!



Die Zimtzicke - Apr 14, 2006 5:03 pm (#2926 of 2971)

When Molly hugged Harry in GoF, he didn't feel better. He felt worse. He was ready to scream when Hermione distracted everyone by slamming the window. That's why I think they didn't try to film it. It would have been hard to get his feelings to come across.

Of course staying at the Burrow is great for Harry. The alternative was the Dursleys. Anything is better than that.

We have no proof Harry considers himself a member of that family. When Arthur was in the hospital, they had to coax him in when the family went in first to see him.



Eponine - Apr 14, 2006 5:29 pm (#2927 of 2971)

He wasn't screaming because Molly was hugging him. He was about to absolutely lose it because of everything he'd been through that night, and it was the first time anyone had EVER hugged him like that, like a mother, for as long as he could remember.

How do you think it would feel to go through a night as traumatic as that one was for Harry? He'd just witnessed Cedric's death, Lord Voldemort's return, the confession of Barty Jr and almost been killed himself. He was trying as hard as he could to keep control of his emotions, and Molly's hug just broke that dam. He didn't try to push her away, and it wasn't because he hated the hug. It was the FIRST TIME he had ever really felt a mother's hug, and if that made him feel bad, then he would be a pretty callous individual.

And Harry grew up feeling unwanted, unloved and excluded from his actual family. What makes you think he's going to automatically try to insert himself into an extremely intimate situation with a family that's not actually his?

There is nothing I see in these books that tells me that Harry doesn't want to be a Weasley. He might not specifically think, "Wouldn't it be cool to be a Weasley," but then again, he's never thought, "I really wish those Weasleys would just leave me alone." Yes, he resented Molly's smothering (not MOTHERING) in OotP, but he was also extremely touched that she considered him as good as a son. He loves that family, and they love him.



Choices - Apr 14, 2006 5:54 pm (#2928 of 2971)
Edited Apr 14, 2006 6:54 pm

Eponine, I completely agree. I think Harry loves the fact that Molly and the Weasleys consider him sort of an "honorary Weasley". Molly loves him like one of her children and I think Harry finds that very welcome and endearing. Of course, he is not used to being "mothered" and it may be a bit disconcerting at times, but deep down, I think he really, really likes the fact that Molly loves him and worries about him, just like she does her biological children.



Bruno Willey - Apr 15, 2006 7:00 am (#2929 of 2971)
Edited Apr 15, 2006 8:18 am

Agreed Choices Molly is the mother that Harry never had and although she will never replace Lily and Arthur will never replace James Harry still loves them and considers them somewhat surrogate parents.

Also I think Harry does want to be part of the Weasley family although I can't remember specific times I do remember Harry showing the slightest sign of envy towards Ron when he speaks about his family especially his brothers. Haha I remembered one.

Harry and Ron are on the train and Ron pulls out a mangled sandwhich and says something alone the lines of "There is so many of us Mum forgets I don't like ____ on my sandwhichs" but then Harry offers a trade for one of his chocolate frogs and is just happy to have some one to share his stuff with -- I think PS maybe.

Bruno



Solitaire - Apr 15, 2006 11:11 am (#2930 of 2971)

Eponine, Choices, Bruno ... I must agree with all you have said. Molly has made no secret of the fact that she considers Harry an "adopted" son. From the first Christmas, she saw to it that he had a "Weasley sweater" and some goodies ... and she'd only seen him once, on Platform 9-and-3/4. When he saved Ginny, I think he was permanently "grafted" into the Weasley family. In OotP Molly told Sirius that she considered herself "as good as" a mother to him.

In truth, Molly and Arthur have been far more "parental" in their dealings with Harry (not only in loving him but also in helping, advising, and occasionally chiding him) since his first year in Hogwarts than Vernon and Pet ever were during the entire time Harry lived with them. The Weasley kids (Ginny and Percy excepted--for different reasons, obviously) have treated Harry as a sibling almost from the beginning, something Dudley never did.

I think Harry has become almost as much a part of the Weasley family as a lot of kids ever are of their own families ... and the Weasleys seem perfectly comfortable with it.

Solitaire



HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 15, 2006 12:21 pm (#2931 of 2971)
Edited Apr 15, 2006 1:22 pm

Nicely put, Solitaire. I agree.



Die Zimtzicke - Apr 15, 2006 1:12 pm (#2932 of 2971)

If Harry is already considered a Weasley, then he doesn't have to marry Ginny, or do anything else to become a member of the family. He is the brother of all of the Weasley kids already.

But he clearly does not see himself that way, and there is still no evidence he wants Molly to have any parental authority over him. There is evidence in OotP that he does not. I just don't see that family as a perfect family anyway. I don't like Molly's bossiness and her mean streak, or Arthur's meekness. I concede, this isn't the place to discuss that but maybe that's why I have problems with Harry as a Weasley.

Molly sent him a sweater when Ron told her he didn't think he'd be getting any presents, and that was nice of her. I'm not arguing about that. I agree he likes it better at the Burrow than at the Dursleys. Anyplace would be better than that, but they are not his family. He saw his own family at first in the mirror of Erised, and only himself at the end.

If anyone is his family, it's Ron and Hermione, whom he has explained his mission to, and plan on coming with him as he carries it out.



TwinklingBlueEyes - Apr 15, 2006 4:16 pm (#2933 of 2971)

If Harry is already considered a Weasley, then he doesn't have to marry Ginny,.... Methinks if Harry married Ginny he'd have better reasons than becoming part of a family. ROFL!

As far as Harry's welfare is concerned, in Molly's mind, she considers him part of her family. Hermione too, remember Molly believing the story about her being Harry's girlfriend, then her attitude change when she found out she wasn't.

...toddles off giggling, "If Harry is already considered a Weasley, then he doesn't have to marry Ginny,..."...



Soul Search - Apr 15, 2006 7:22 pm (#2934 of 2971)

Harry's wanting and being part of the Weasley family inhibited him from, at first, recognizing, and then acting on, his feelings for Ginny. Until HBP he considered Ginny a "little sister" to be protected. Later, in HBP, he was fearful of any impact on his friendship with Ron should he become romantic with Ginny.

More than anything else, this demonstrates that Harry very much considers himself part of the Weasley family.



Die Zimtzicke - Apr 15, 2006 8:42 pm (#2935 of 2971)

More than anything else, this demonstrates that Harry very much considers himself part of the Weasley family.

Not to me. To me it just means that Ron's feelings means more to him than Ginny's feelings, which I already knew. Which is re-enforced when Harry and Ginny kiss and he looks at Ron first, then everyone else in the room, before he looks back at her.

There's still no canon proof Harry wants to be a Weasley. Only that he would rather be at the Burrow than at the Dursleys.



HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 16, 2006 9:36 am (#2936 of 2971)
Edited Apr 16, 2006 10:38 am

I think Harry enjoys being included as a part of a real family, with all of the pros and cons. That is something he had done without for his eleven years of life at the Dursleys. When he finally got a taste of something that filled this void in his life, he felt as though the pros far outweighed the bad and would take it in a heartbeat.



Pinky Prime - Apr 18, 2006 6:26 am (#2937 of 2971)

I think Molly took it well; not to be too awed by Harry, rather she took pity or sympathy with him. I think this had a profound on Harry's belief system of good wizards that need his help.

I don't think that he feels as sheepish about others placing their hope in him for their protection either.

Had more to say but I would like to think about the effect the Weasleys had on him.



haymoni - Apr 18, 2006 6:42 am (#2938 of 2971)

Molly was protective of Harry before she even met him - she told the Twins not to ask him anything about what he remembered.

I think she is just the mothering type.



Pinky Prime - Apr 20, 2006 6:38 am (#2939 of 2971)
Edited Apr 20, 2006 7:40 am

Just a thought... I'm surprised that LV didn't target the Weasleys "strategically" from the outset of his return, to break down Harry's protection.



Soul Search - Apr 20, 2006 6:54 am (#2940 of 2971)
Edited Apr 20, 2006 7:54 am

Pinky Prime ... And Wormtail would have known all about Harry's relationship with the Weasleys and Hermione.

Maybe that's why all the Weasleys are in "Mortal Peril."



haymoni - Apr 20, 2006 11:14 am (#2941 of 2971)

Dumbledore did say that extra protections were put on the Burrow in Book 6 and it does seem that before that, the Weasleys almost needed permission for Harry to come and stay with them.

Wormtail was still undercover in Book 2, so Harry's surprise stay at the Burrow was probably OK.



cindysuewho45 - Apr 21, 2006 9:22 pm (#2942 of 2971)
Edited Apr 21, 2006 10:25 pm

Hi all, One must die for the other to live. I feel that LV will be the one that dies. I feel that Harry will live! JKR has said from the start that she has the last chapter of book 7 done, and that it will tell us how and who will live and how they end up in life. So there will be a final end to it all for us. And yes, book 7 will be war! There will be a lot of death, and it will take the good as well as the bad. We will see some of the people that we love in the books die. Harry, Ron and Hermione will be at adult power now. I feel that book 7 will be the most powerful book yet, in a lot of different ways. As for Harry being part of a family, I think he looks at the Weasleys as how he would like his life in a family to be like, but knows that no matter how much they love him that he still feels alone at this point. Just a close friend, that gets to spend time with a loving family. And he loves all or most of them. It will take Harry getting married to Ginny down the road, being a son-in-law, brother in-law, husband etc.. For him to feel like it is his family too. And I feel that JKR will or has put that kind of thing in the last chapter. So we will see how it all ends, as well as info. about the others that make it. Not all of them will. Harry will live, but I think we will see a lot of his friends, old and young die before it is all over.



Solitaire - Apr 23, 2006 9:40 am (#2943 of 2971)

One must die for the other to live.

Well, that isn't exactly what it says. The line to which you are referring is worded as follows: ... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives .... Unfortunately, that particular wording does not necessarily say that both won't die. It does seem to indicate that one must die ... but it does not seem to preclude the other dying, as well. Bummer ...

Solitaire



cindysuewho45 - Apr 23, 2006 11:20 am (#2944 of 2971)
Edited Apr 23, 2006 12:53 pm

Hi all, I feel that the "either must die at the hand of the other" part is saying that, one or the other must kill the other one. And the rest of it, that says "for neither can live while the other survives" is saying that one needs to die so the other one can go on with his life. This is just my take on things. It can be read a few ways. LV stands for all that is bad and wants to rule in evil. LV can not get it done with Harry around trying to stop him and missing up his plans. Harry stands for all that is good and can not start a life with LV out there, Harry has taken it up on himself to do away with LV and can not start a happy and loving life, with LV around. So, one must die for the other to live. If they are both alive neither will ever get what they want.



frogface - Apr 23, 2006 12:58 pm (#2945 of 2971)
Edited Apr 23, 2006 2:00 pm

I'm with Solitaire on this one. The Prophecy seems to be saying that at least one of them has to die at the hand of the other, but that doesn't mean that one of them will deffinately survive. It says "neither can live while the other survies", it doesn't say "and one will live once the other has died" For instance, lets say Harry grabs LV and pulls him into the veil. They will both die but only LV would have died at the hand of the other. Harry will have died by his violition. I'm not saying that I think this particular scenario is going to happen, its just an example. But the Prophecy says one of them will deffinately be vanquished, once that has happened, all bets are off. Anything can happen after that.



Solitaire - Apr 23, 2006 1:32 pm (#2946 of 2971)

Yep, frogface ... I wish it were otherwise, but I do not believe the prophecy guarantees Harry's survival. Jo said that she and Madam Trelawney worded the Prophecy very carefully. I believe it is worded in a deliberately vague way. Otherwise, we could easily figure out the ending, and that would make for a rather dull book. I do believe Voldemort will be killed--I find it difficult to believe Jo would leave the WW ensnared in his grip with no further book to come--but I simply do not believe we can infer that Voldemort's death ensures Harry's survival.

I've always been in the Harry-will-live camp until recently. After watching the ending of LOTR: Return of the King, however, I am no longer certain. I've seen too many knowledgeable people on this Forum draw parallels between the HP and LOTR books, and that ending caused me to seriously entertain the possibility of Harry's demise.

It is obvious Jo sees war realistically--sometimes good guys die and bad guys survive--so I do not believe it can be confidently asserted that Harry will survive ... until we see it written so in the last book. I want to believe it ... but I can't just yet.

Solitaire



TheSaint - Apr 23, 2006 1:32 pm (#2947 of 2971)

I do have a question about that. The prophecy stated that the child would be to parents who have 'thrice defied' Volde. Started me thinking, just what that means. Was Volde hunting them? Defied seems so personal, as if he wanted to turn them ( and we do have James always declaring he would never go to the 'dark' side). So why did Volde want the Potters and the Longbottoms so much? Was it because of who they were, what they possessed, or just needed followers? (Personally I would love it if Neville turns out to be the last descendant of Gryffindor, but relation to the Founders was only one thought).

I do think the wording of the prophecy would tend to apply to harry more than Volde..as Volde is living the life he wants, and Harry dreams of more.



HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 23, 2006 1:56 pm (#2948 of 2971)

TheSaint, I would have to think that it had something to do with their professions. Something that Big V would have had a need for, in excess of just recruiting them as DEs. That just doesn't seem nearly enough.

Even if it is something so simple as Harry's parents and the Longbottoms working in the MoM and attempting to get that prophecy through them as he tried to do using Bode.



timrew - Apr 23, 2006 2:19 pm (#2949 of 2971)

I think if evil is allowed to triumph, and good (Harry's death) is allowed to sink into oblivion, then it will totally negate the message of the other six books.

Or even if Harry dies defeating Voldemort, it will be a major disaster................

I will see this as a total cop-out by JKR; and it will make me incredibly sorry that I spent any time reading these books. IMHO....



virginiaelizabeth - Apr 23, 2006 2:28 pm (#2950 of 2971)

I agree with what your saying Solitare. Here's teh whole prophecy:

the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches....born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives....The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies....

We know that LV has marked Harry as his equal, but does that mean Harry's scar, or something more significant? I think that it could mean something along the lines, of transfering some of his powers to Harry(and no I dont't think its part of his soul) Well whatever it is, I don't think its just Harry's scar.

The power the Dark Lord knows not- DD has already said that this is love.

And then there is the dying part, in addition to what ya'll have said, I also think that it means, niether Harry nor LV will beable to live thier lives, while the other is still alive.

Now one thing that has got me wondering is that the prophecy says 2 times that the one with the power to get rid of LV was born at the end of july. It says this twice and that makes me think that Harry's birthday may have something to do with him vanquishing the Dark Lord. Am I just picking this apart to much? Does anyone else find this could be significant?

I truly think that Harry is going to kill LV. Like the Prophecy says, he has the power to do it, so I see no reason why he won't, even if he dies trying. But even if he does die, he's going to take LV with him.

Harry Potter - Page 3 2134391180

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mona
Mona
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Posts 2951 to 2971

Post  Mona Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:51 am



Jewel - Apr 23, 2006 8:37 pm (#2951 of 2971)
Edited Apr 23, 2006 9:40 pm

...for neither can live while the other survives...

I have always taken that particular part of the prophecy to mean that Harry cannot live his life to the fullest until Voldemort is vanquished. Voldemort, in a sense, isn't really living right now anyway, is he? He is surviving only because of his horcruxes, he does not have a complete soul. Harry, on the other hand, is trying to live as normal a life as possible, but Voldemort seems to keep ruining it for him.

This has been Harry's life;

First, Voldemort kills Harry's parents before he is old enough to really know them. Then, after eleven horrible years with the only other family he has, he learns that he is part of a whole other world where everyone knows him and he makes friends,but he can't even enjoy that because Voldemort pops up in his first year at Hogwarts. Second year at school, Voldemort tries to kill Harry's best friend's sister to come back. Third year, Harry finds out he has a godfather and Wormtail escapes to go help Voldemort return. Fourth year, he is entered into the Tri-Wizard tournament, almost loses his best friend to teenage jelousies, sees Cedric killed and Voldemort return to bodily form (not to life, just to a body),and is almost killed himself by Voldemort. Fifth year, is cut off from his friends most of the summer, starts feeling and seeing things Voldemort and his followers see, gets into the fight at the MOM, loses Sirius to Voldemorts followers, and throughout the year is called everything from a psycho to a fame crazy liar. Sixth year, Dumbledore finally lets him in on everything, he starts to realize his true feelings for Ginny, goes with Dumbledore to destroy the locket horcrux, only to realize that it was almost pointless after Snape offs Dumbledore and Harry reads the note in the fake locket.

Voldemort has been the reason for everything bad that has happened to Harry his entire life. I think that for Harry to truly live his life, he has to destroy the remaining parts of Voldemort that allows him to survive.

Of course this is only my opinion on the matter, many of the other scenarios here I have read could very well be what happens in the end. I guess I like mine because Harry lives, Voldemort is gone, happy ending!



cindysuewho45 - Apr 24, 2006 6:32 am (#2952 of 2971)

Hi all, And THANK YOU Jewel, I like the way you put that!



Steve Newton - Apr 24, 2006 6:57 am (#2953 of 2971)

First of all I am sure that the wording is intentionally obscure. I can't help but thing that "for neither can live while the other survives" is talking about 3 people. My best guesses right now are Harry, Voldemort and either Peter or Neville.



haymoni - Apr 24, 2006 7:33 am (#2954 of 2971)

I'm holding out for "either must die at the HAND of The Other" being tied up with Peter's hand.

The guy could have cut off another finger if Voldy needed flesh, but nooooo! - he cut off the whole hand.

What a moron!

It has to mean something.



Choices - Apr 24, 2006 9:40 am (#2955 of 2971)

You are right haymoni - Wormtail could have pinched off a wart and thrown it in, but he sacrificed his whole hand. "either must die at the HAND of The Other" could mean either Harry or Voldemort must die at the hand of Wormtail, and we all know Wormtail owes Harry a life debt....so hopefully his HAND will kill Voldemort and Harry will live!!!! **cheers** If Harry is "The One", then Wormtail could be "The Other". I like it!



Die Zimtzicke - Apr 24, 2006 9:58 am (#2956 of 2971)

I am a huge Dead Harry fan. I think Harry could die and the ending of the books could still be powerful and well done. If Harry sacrifices himself to save the wizarding world, and then goes off to that next great adventure, where he is reunited with his parents, Sirius, and Dumbledore, I firmly believe it could be done well.

It would also explain Jo's comments about her faith reveeling a lot about her plot. "He who lays down his life for his friends" and all of that.

I certainly don't want a "Harry Potter! You've defeated Voldemort! What are you gong to do now?" Disneyfied ending.

He will be even more famous if he defeats Voldemort, and I don't personally see how he could ever have a simple, normal life after that. To me, Harry has always been the means to an end.



Soul Search - Apr 24, 2006 10:00 am (#2957 of 2971)

Choices, I liked it too, but ...

The way you typed the previous post, "The Other," I immediately had the thought that if those words were capitalized in the book text, it would signify "The Other" as an entity separate from the two mentioned. Alas, no; the words are not capitalized, so just the "other" of the two referenced must be meant.

Too, bad; I liked the idea.



Choices - Apr 24, 2006 10:34 am (#2958 of 2971)

Soul Search, I lifted that quote from Haymoni's post, so I did not capitalize it like that - that was just the way it was.



haymoni - Apr 24, 2006 11:31 am (#2959 of 2971)
Edited Apr 24, 2006 12:32 pm

We've tossed this theory around on several different threads now.

With JKR's comment about wording it carefully, we started playing around with what these words in the prophesy might mean.

I think it would be too easy to spot if she had used "The Other".

However, she obviously likes to play with words - "I am Lord Voldemort" - The Mirror of Erised - this prophesy is just too tempting not to play around with.



Choices - Apr 24, 2006 3:39 pm (#2960 of 2971)
Edited Apr 24, 2006 4:39 pm

I agree haymoni - I like the idea of "The Other". JKR definitely has a way with words.



journeymom - Apr 24, 2006 4:36 pm (#2961 of 2971)

Very interesting. I like the Other idea a lot. If it's true, then after Harry hunts down the rest of the horcrux he can have Peter hand them through the Veil in the DoM. That way he won't 'kill' his hand like Dumbledore did when he put the ring through the Veil. And it will also destroy the bit of soul that's possibly in his hand.

In PoA Lupin scolded Harry for risking his life while wandering around the school after curfew with Marauders' Map. "That's a poor way to repay your parents," or something to that effect. That tells me that JK Rowling doesn't want Harry die and be with his parents and Sirius. Death may be the next adventure but she's also setting Harry up to be with Ginny Weasley and finally get his normal life. He's inherited this huge house and could easily fill it with a pack of children.



Soul Search - Apr 24, 2006 6:06 pm (#2962 of 2971)

There is another way of looking at the prophecy. If there is anything to it, then neither Harry nor Voldemort will be killed by anyone else.

I wonder if "... must die at the hand of the other" includes Voldemort's horcruxes.



HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 25, 2006 6:53 am (#2963 of 2971)

In PoA Lupin scolded Harry for risking his life while wandering around the school after curfew with Marauders' Map. "That's a poor way to repay your parents," or something to that effect. . .

Actually, journeymom, that is an excellent argument in favor of sparing Harry. One of the most convincing, in my mind.



journeymom - Apr 25, 2006 7:45 am (#2964 of 2971)
Edited Apr 25, 2006 8:46 am

Thanks! It seemed like these people died so that Harry could live.



Potter Ace - Apr 25, 2006 8:53 am (#2965 of 2971)
Edited Apr 25, 2006 10:05 am

I'm confused. Where is the third person in "... for neither can live while the other survives.."? The prophecy only deals with two people, LV and the one he has marked his equal. DD clearly states this at the end of OtP, Neville could have been the "One", he met the birth criteria, his parents had defied LV three time, but he was not "marked" his equal by LV. So the prophecy only deal with Harry & LV.

Or am I missing something?



Laura W - Apr 25, 2006 8:55 am (#2966 of 2971)
Edited Apr 25, 2006 9:57 am

Soul Search wrote: "There is another way of looking at the prophecy. If there is anything to it, then neither Harry nor Voldemort will be killed by anyone else."

So it seems to me. I admit that that darned prophecy is written in the most obscure language possible (!), but there is still that passage from OoP which supports what Soul Search said above. Chapter The Lost Prophecy, p. 744 (Raincoast):

So, said Harry ..., so does that mean that ... that one of us has to kill the other one ... in the end?" "Yes," said Dumbledore.

Sounds pretty straightforward to me. (Of course, like the rest of you, I know that *nothing* is straightforward in the HP books world.)

Laura



Steve Newton - Apr 25, 2006 8:57 am (#2967 of 2971)

Potter, nowhere does the prophecy say "neither of them."



Potter Ace - Apr 25, 2006 9:07 am (#2968 of 2971)

Steve,

Changed to reflect your exact words in post 2953, my point was that the prophecy relates to only 2 people, not three.



Steve Newton - Apr 25, 2006 9:19 am (#2969 of 2971)

Potter, I don't think so. Prophecies almost have to be written to be cryptic. Do not expect clarity or explicitness. At one time I had figured a way to get 5 people into the prophecy. I think that the chances of the 'hand of the other' being either Harry or Voldemort are very slim.



haymoni - Apr 25, 2006 9:20 am (#2970 of 2971)

Potter Ace - the speculation (and it is a reach for sure!) is that the "neither" part of the prophesy refers to Harry & Voldy, but "the hand of the other" refers to Wormtail's hand - Wormtail being "the other" - so 3 people are involved.

JKR's love of word play and her statement that the prophesy was worded very carefully makes us think that there is more to the prophesy than just Harry & Voldy having to kill each other.



Choices - Apr 25, 2006 9:22 am (#2971 of 2971)
Edited by Kip Carter Apr 25, 2006 12:44 pm

journeymom - "That way he won't 'kill' his hand like Dumbledore did when he put the ring through the Veil."

Where in the book does it say that Dumbledore put the ring through the veil? Just curious.

Note: This thread has reached its maximum number of post and the discussion can continue on the new Harry Potter thread.

Harry Potter - Page 3 2134391180

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mona
Mona
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Harry Potter 3 (Posts from April 25, 2006 to August 29, 2009)

Post  Mona Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:45 am

Harry Potter
Kip Carter - Apr 25, 2006 11:41 am
Edited Apr 25, 2006 1:03 pm

Harry Potter is the main character in the series and this is a continuation of Harry Potter (11 Nov 03 to 25 Apr 06), which reached its maximum number of posts on 25 April 2006. This link will take you to the post that you last marked as read. If you wish to review only today's posts, you can click on this link to review the last nine (9) messages on the old thread.

Note: Do not post just to say that you are the first one posting on this new thread. If you do, I will delete your message. I advise you to review what has recently been discussed on the old thread and continue that discussion. - Kip

  INDEX HARRY POTTER 3

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


Harry Potter - Page 3 2134391180
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]




Last edited by Mona on Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
Mona
Mona
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Posts 1 to 50

Post  Mona Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:55 am



virginiaelizabeth - Apr 25, 2006 12:37 pm (#1 of 1104)
Edited Apr 25, 2006 1:39 pm

Just continuing the disscusion...

I definatley think that there is more to the prophecy than meets the eye, but I don't think that it has anything to do with Wormtail's hand. I think that the hand of the other just means that LV has to kill Harry or Harry has to kill LV. We making things to complicated than they should be, neither can live while the other survives, just means IMO that niether Harry nor LV will be satified until they kill the other.



Magic Words - Apr 25, 2006 12:46 pm (#2 of 1104)

I'm just jumping into the discussion here (the old thread was too intimidating) so forgive me if I've missed anything. I agree there can be multiple interpretations for parts of the prophecy, but "neither can live while the other survives" has bothered me for a while because I can't figure out any interpretation that satisfies me. How would it apply to the first year of Harry's life, before Voldemort killed his parents? One could argue that Voldemort wasn't fully alive, because of his Horcruxes, but he was surviving, and Harry was alive.



journeymom - Apr 25, 2006 2:05 pm (#3 of 1104)

Choices, you asked, "Where in the book does it say that Dumbledore put the ring through the veil? Just curious. "

It doesn't say that anywhere in the book. It is an idea I read about in a HP fan fiction and I liked it very much. It seemed like something JK Rowling might think up. It would explain Dumbledore's dead hand. We know the Veil will be featured again somehow. If it snuffed out Sirius's soul from his perfectly healthy body then it could snuff out the Voldemort bits of soul in each horcrux.



Gina R Snape - Apr 25, 2006 2:14 pm (#4 of 1104)

Ok, I just had the image flash through my mind of Harry gathering all the horcruxes in a big sack and tossing them through the veil at once while Mundungus sits on a chair and sobs because he wanted to sell everything that just got pitched.



journeymom - Apr 25, 2006 2:31 pm (#5 of 1104)

Lol! Though it does make me wonder, using this scenario, why didn't Dumbledore just toss the ring through, rather than sticking his whole arm in there? Maybe the Veil requires a living person to pass through.

And maybe it's all just fictional hokum! =)

I like your new avatar, Mrs Snape.



Gina R Snape - Apr 25, 2006 4:00 pm (#6 of 1104)

Thanks!

I suspect DD got his hand zapped at some point in the process, and that it was unavoidable. Also, to get to the veil you have to get into the Ministry, and then into that room in the Dept. of Mysteries. Somehow, I don't think it's easy to just waltz in there.



Die Zimtzicke - Apr 25, 2006 5:49 pm (#7 of 1104)

I htink we should take this discussion to a horcrux thread, and not leave it on a Harry thread.

Back to the prophecy...Harry is so intertwined with Voldemort, that it would not surprise me if he does have to die to defeat him. I know this is unpopular, but I do think it's possible, and if it's done well, and I think Jo COULD do it well, I won't mind it. I could accept it more than some happily-ever-after double wedding kind of ending. The books have always been so dark, I can't see them going all sweetness and light in the end. There's going to be more casualties. I just can't decide it Harry will be the final one or not.



virginiaelizabeth - Apr 25, 2006 9:23 pm (#8 of 1104)
Edited Apr 25, 2006 10:23 pm

How would it apply to the first year of Harry's life, before Voldemort killed his parents? One could argue that Voldemort wasn't fully alive, because of his Horcruxes, but he was surviving, and Harry was alive.- Magic Words

2 possible reasons:

1.) Remember that DD said the Prophecy was only signifcant because LV made it significant. If LV hadn't tried to make it true, then those words would mean nothing at all. The prophecy can't come ture unless someone tries to make it true. That line is just part of the prophecy, but not the entire thing. Basically, the prophecy didn't come into effect until LV tried to make it true. Am I making any sense at all??

2.)It could be interpreted in the way that I said in my last post, that niether Harry nor LV will be satified until they kill the other. Neither can live knowing that the other still exist. It is probably more of a mental thing than a physical one because they have both lived all these years already.



Magic Words - Apr 26, 2006 6:30 am (#9 of 1104)

Aha. I didn't like the second explanation because as a baby Harry wouldn't have been unsatisfied that Voldemort was alive, but it makes sense that the prophecy didn't come into effect until the attempted murder.



frogface - Apr 26, 2006 8:33 am (#10 of 1104)

I would hate to see a Disney style, now everything is perfect style ending, but I can't imagine for one second that JKR would write it like that at all. If Harry does survive, he'll hopefully lead a less traumatic one than the one he has had to endure so far, but he can still live, be generally happy. I don't think him merely surviving would make it a "happily ever after" ending. I'm confident that whatever JKR chooses to write, she'll do it well.



cindysuewho45 - Apr 26, 2006 9:56 am (#11 of 1104)

Hi all, Thank you Virginiaelizabeth, I agree with what you are saying about prophecy. And I agree with you about " We making things to complicated than they should be ". And yes, you make sense on the next post also.



Deb Zawacki - Apr 27, 2006 4:00 pm (#12 of 1104)

Yeah but what I don't want to see is somthing along the lines of what another poster said a while back about this series ending like the series Quantum Leap-- where the hero of the story jumps around time, saving people while trying to get back home--only to have the "god-force" in the story tell him that he's done a good job and was moving on--heaven? afterlife? He never got to live happily ever after with his wife--his "reward" was to move on--- I will absolutely have a coniption fit if JKR does that.



virginiaelizabeth - Apr 27, 2006 4:30 pm (#13 of 1104)

well lets just hope she doesn't and has never read that series!! I don't think she would, that doesn;t sound like her kinda writing.



TheSaint - Apr 27, 2006 7:01 pm (#14 of 1104)

'He never got to live happily ever after with his wife--his "reward" was to move on--- I will absolutely have a coniption fit if JKR does that. '

Isn't it kind of hard to tell without knowing what moving on entails? What if moving on is four hundred times better than living happily ever after?



geauxtigers - Apr 27, 2006 7:06 pm (#15 of 1104)

ha ha Saint! You never know, I don't sit around and think about that ha ha I'm more of a think in the present and near future lol!

Yeah I don't want it ending like that either, I think that would be a terrible reward!



TheSaint - Apr 27, 2006 7:22 pm (#16 of 1104)

Oh you want reward...like the police get every day? The fire Department..those people that keep you from harm and risk thier lives to save yours? Ask one of them...see how much reward heroes get.



cindysuewho45 - Apr 27, 2006 9:57 pm (#17 of 1104)

Hi all, I would be happy too,if Harry gets to live a happy life after all this LV stuff is over. I could see him in love with Ginny, working to bring in DE's and continuing to stomp out all dark arts. With lots of kids! etc. etc..



Choices - Apr 28, 2006 10:17 am (#18 of 1104)

The Saint - "Oh you want reward...like the police get every day? The fire Department..those people that keep you from harm and risk thier lives to save yours? Ask one of them...see how much reward heroes get."

I understand what you are saying, Saint. Not every "hero" ends up on Oprah getting a pat on the back.



geauxtigers - Apr 28, 2006 1:18 pm (#19 of 1104)

Ohh I didn't understand what you meant Saint... I'd run out of posts I so I couldn't ask what you meant, I read over it like 10 times trying to see if I misunderstood something....



Puck - Apr 28, 2006 6:12 pm (#20 of 1104)

Still, it would be great for Harry to get to have a big family, as family is the one thing he has always wanted.



cindysuewho45 - Apr 29, 2006 11:20 am (#21 of 1104)
Edited Apr 29, 2006 12:25 pm

Hi all, I have been thinking and reading about Harry and want to run this past you, I hope I spell legillimens right. OK, We all know that Snape tried to teach Harry occlumecy, and that Harry did not do good for one or twenty reasons. Maybe Harry got some of LV's ability at legillimens. Think of all Harry's dreams, and how he sees what LV is thinking and doing at times. This would explain a lot. What do you guy's think?



virginiaelizabeth - Apr 29, 2006 12:41 pm (#22 of 1104)

That's a thought cindy! maybe that is just LV's legillmens powers that lets him see into Voldie's thoughts. That would explain the connection between the two of them.



Dobby Socks - Apr 29, 2006 12:43 pm (#23 of 1104)

Hi Cindy -- That’s an interesting thought. He may have gained a bit of that skill through LV’s transfer to him when he was a baby. But I always felt that it was only Voldemort’s thoughts he had easy access to. I’ve never seen any instance in which he uses such a skill except when he breaks into Snape’s thoughts during the occlumency lessons. And that’s a defensive instinct that kicks in when his emotions are running high. It very well may be a latent talent that he has never considered he might possess. Even at this late stage in the game, it still seems like Harry does best when his emotions are running high and he’s acting on instinct (excluding his inability to progress at all in occlumency, which is a skill that involves a lot of self control). I do wonder sometimes if he has any talents as a seer (as opposed to a legilimens): many of his dreams that have nothing to do with his accessing LV’s mind seem to predict future events, the latest being (if I’m remembering correctly) the dream he has where Dumbledore throws him a rope ladder that turns into snakes. I suspect Harry has a lot of latent abilities that he never tries to develop. Or doesn’t recognize



HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 30, 2006 8:34 am (#24 of 1104)

That is a great thought, cindysuewho45. If not anything else, it should serve as a warning to Snape that Big V could get past Snape's Occlumens abilities.



HungarianHorntail11 - Apr 30, 2006 10:43 am (#25 of 1104)

TheSaint, the only difference I see, though, is that those people you mention, fire dept., etc., have themselves chosen their professions and entails a certain mindset having made that decision. Harry did not chose for himself.



Magic Words - Apr 30, 2006 11:25 am (#26 of 1104)

I thought the main reason Harry could break into Snape's mind was that he used a shield charm and deflected Snape's Legilimency spell back at Snape. That raises the question, though, of why Snape was using a spell when Legilimency is supposed to be something of an innate talent. Maybe there are different types?



journeymom - Apr 30, 2006 11:37 am (#27 of 1104)

Legilimency still requires a spell, though, even if the caster is exceptionally skilled. Just like Flitwick is talented in charms and McGonagall is talented in transfiguration. They still require spells and (foolish) wand waving.

Is that what you're saying, Magic Words?



Magic Words - Apr 30, 2006 12:02 pm (#28 of 1104)

I'm saying there seem to be times when Legilimency is used without a spell. Snape doesn't say "Legilimens" in HBP, though come to think of it he could be saying it nonverbally. But Dumbledore says he can tell when he's being lied to, as can Voldemort, and I doubt they both cast nonverbal Legilimency spells every time they talk to someone.



frogface - Apr 30, 2006 12:04 pm (#29 of 1104)

I think there are different types. Snape describs Leglimency as being able to pick up peoples emotions, yet when he used a spell, it was Harry's memories that were spilling out of him. I think Snape was starting Harry out on a more instensive version of blocking Leglimency via Occumency.



Tom Marvolo Riddleton - Apr 30, 2006 3:54 pm (#30 of 1104)
Edited Apr 30, 2006 4:58 pm

That raises the question, though, of why Snape was using a spell when Legilimency is supposed to be something of an innate talent. - Magic Words

Well, even though Legillimency could be something of an innate talent, it would still require the spell. This is analogous to Harry's ability to conjure a corporeal patronus in the presence of a hundred dementors. He might be able to do it better than many, especially considering the age at which he was, but would be nothing without saying "EXPECTO PATRONUM!"

That aside, I do believe that not everything is explained by magic. I always just thought that Dumbledore was really good at reading people, as he always seems to be boring a whole right into Harry when he's talking to him, but there is no presence of Legillimency, as Harry doesn't have his memories suddenly spring before him.



TheSaint - Apr 30, 2006 4:03 pm (#31 of 1104)

TheSaint, the only difference I see, though, is that those people you mention, fire dept., etc., have themselves chosen their professions and entails a certain mindset having made that decision. Harry did not chose for himself.

Now I understand why a 19-year old who has never bought his own shoes gets a 98 million dollar shoes endorsement and the guy battling out with the swill on the street makes 42, 000 a year. It has to do with mindset...



Dobby Socks - Apr 30, 2006 4:06 pm (#32 of 1104)

Magic Words, I’ve reread that passage and you are quite right. I’d forgotten about the shield spell. I probably should have said, “I think you’re wrong for the following reasons,” but one of my flaws is a tendency to be too diplomatic. And I should’ve checked the text. (Doh!) :::Dobby Socks heats up iron once again for a good finger pressing:::

It is odd that Snape uses a spoken Legilimency spell. Perhaps JKR used this device to acquaint her readers with the concept. Obviously, the spoken (as well as the Nvbl) is not used all the time (see Magic Words’ examples of DD and LV.) If the casting of a spell / not casting a spell perform two separate “mind reading” functions, one based on accessing direct memories and the other based on accessing emotion, I would think LV would use the former whenever possible. It’s a bit disconcerting that Harry was able to break into Snape’s mind using a simple shield spell. Wouldn’t LV as a highly skilled Legilimens be able to do the same without the shield spell? Of course, the memories don’t seem to be of much use unless the caster can control which ones he’s getting. Maybe that’s the reason the direct “Legilimens” spell isn’t more widely used.

Looking back, the above supports HH11’s post #24.

Does anyone except Cindy & I think that Harry has some unrealized magical potential? Something that might surface instinctually in Book 7? (If this topic has already been beaten to death, I apologize. Far too many old posts to read, even with the search button.)

~Camille



TheSaint - Apr 30, 2006 4:11 pm (#33 of 1104)

Seems since he is teaching Harry...Harry should know the spell that is used to break into his mind. I am sure had Harry bothered to practice, and gotten a bit beyond the beginners phase, Snape would have gone to non-verbal.



Dobby Socks - Apr 30, 2006 6:21 pm (#34 of 1104)

1.) Was kicked off the internet before I had time to post my first response (below) – perhaps even thinking of politics will knock you off the Lex. Harry should have known the spell beforehand and would have if anyone had bothered to tell him (or if he had found out through his own initiative, but he’s forever distracted by other things.) Certainly he knows it after the first time Snape uses it on him. BTW, I am constantly frustrated by the amount of information withheld from Harry and by his stubbornness in not asking for help. Where was Hermione during this? LOL.

The dichotomy I was trying to comment on was verbal & non-verbal spells vs. the way Legilimency usually seems to work, which we have been assuming (at least I had, and, based on their comments, others had) was a skill that didn’t involve any spell. And, yes, it would’ve helped tremendously if Harry had put any effort into practicing. As it stands, I think the fallout from Harry’s not practicing (and Snape’s not being able to teach him properly due to their mutual animosity) resulted in the DOM battle. And hopefully it will not turn up again. Voldemort was able to use Harry’s natural inclination toward curiousity, which is apparently greater than any desire to follow the advice of authority figures. It’s similar to Harry having to overcome the desire to see his parents when he had to fight off the dementors. There were so many missed opportunities during the Occlumency lessons, which I’ve felt is really a shame. Hopefully, Harry will not have to rely on occlumency in the future, or else will be practicing over the summer. In HBP Draco was able to pick up the skill very quickly, comparatively speaking.

2,) Saint, regarding police & firefighters, I think it has to do with our society’s skewed values. For instance, look at the salary of teachers, and throw in the fact that they often have to buy supplies for their classes (in the States at any rate – not sure where you are located) and work in dilapidated premises if the tax base in their district isn’t high enough. Society complains about children receiving an inadequate education, but refuses to help with the burden. Teachers at the better private schools (like HOGWARTS for example – trying to make a HP connection here) receive even less. I’m not equating teaching with those professions you are talking about (which are certainly much more dangerous.) It just supports my main point. The most important jobs are often the most thankless, which is a shame. Um (trying desperately to get back to HP), for instance, if Snape were paid more he might be able to afford better living quarters than Spinner’s End, and if he had dental insurance, he could perhaps look into getting those teeth fixed (not to go OT, just trying to avoid lashing by Kip.)



Soul Search - Apr 30, 2006 7:06 pm (#35 of 1104)

We first learn of legillimency in OotP. But, there are a number of times in previous books when Harry expresses the (narrated) opinion that Snape can read his mind.

Legillimency sounds like something the caster would not want the target to know is being performed.

I interpreted the OotP lessons activity as an obvious teaching device. Snape used a wand and verbalized the spell so Harry (and maybe we, since non-verbal spells hadn't been described yet) would know when the spell was coming. Describing action is difficult when nothing obvious is happening.

I wonder, was Snape using legillimency on Harry in times past? Maybe he was, and didn't want Harry to be able to block his mind.

I will have to keep this in mind for a re-read. It would mean, for example, that Snape knew Harry was going after the stone in SS, but didn't do anything. Interesting thought.



virginiaelizabeth - Apr 30, 2006 7:55 pm (#36 of 1104)

I tend to think that legillimency doesn't require a spell, simply because the only time we see it used with a spell is when Snape is teaching Harry. There are numerous times when we see it used. I think DD uses it quite often and Snape does as well(in the earlier books) You are very right Soul Search, Harry says multiple times that he felt like Snape could read minds. In HBP, when Harry does sectesempra(spelling?) to Malfoy, Snape looks at Harry, then asks him to bring him his school bag, so that makes me think that he read Harry's mind and saw the potion's book. Otherwise he would have just asked where did you learn this spell. He obviously knew that he made it up, but I doubt his first thought was that Harry had his old potions book. So he must have read Harry's mind, but I don't remember him raising his wand to do it. Harry never had any memories or thoughts flash before him there.

Same with Voldemort, he doesn't use a wand, to know that his DE are lying to him, he just knows.

Maybe it doesn't require a wand, but a wand can be used. There is also the fact that whenever Snape read Harry's mind inthe sectemsempra seen, Harry never saw anything flash before him.... is it possible that what Snape was teaching Harry, wasn't quite right??



geauxtigers - Apr 30, 2006 8:13 pm (#37 of 1104)

actually ginny, Harry did have lots of things flash before his mind including his potions book, which at that point Snape tells him to bring it to him... but everything else I agree with you on.



virginiaelizabeth - Apr 30, 2006 8:49 pm (#38 of 1104)

I thought he said something along the lines of:as hard as he tried not to let it, his copy of advanced potion making swam to the front of his mind. I didn't think that was the same thing as what happened in Snapes office.



Dobby Socks - May 1, 2006 1:51 am (#39 of 1104)

The Saint, I was so tired last night and somehow completely misread the first part of your post #33. Don't know how that happened --sorry. I read it this morning and it's perfectly clear. Must remember not to post when I'm about to pass out from exhaustion.



Zinovia - May 1, 2006 5:00 am (#40 of 1104)

I don't think a wand is needed either. I mean, it would sort of make the whole process pointless, wouldn't it? Voldemort certainly doesn't need a wand to tell if you're lying.



Anna L. Black - May 1, 2006 9:30 am (#41 of 1104)

It seems to me that true legilimency is very subtle and "quiet", so to speak - meaning that if you really are a good legilimens, you don't have to use a spell and a wand, but you can just 'feel' what the person before you is thinking. I think that during the Occlumency lessons, Snape used some other, more 'crude' way of penetrating minds - perhaps it's a "version" of legilimency, but more obvious than real one.

I hope that makes sense, I have a feeling I wasn't too clear..



wynnleaf - May 1, 2006 10:59 am (#42 of 1104)
Edited May 1, 2006 12:00 pm

It is odd that Snape uses a spoken Legilimency spell. Perhaps JKR used this device to acquaint her readers with the concept.

If you consider that all of the teachers should be quite capable of nonverbal spells, one could ask why any of the teachers ever speak spells out loud. My guess is that it is necessary for teaching purposes. Students need to know when and what the teacher is incanting in order to know how to respond. On that principal, Snape would speak the Legilimens (spelling?) spell out loud while attempting to teach Harry occlumency, yet not speak it out loud when he's just using it in day-to-day occurances. In the scene where Severus tries to use legilimency on Draco, I don't recall a mention of his wand being out, nor does he say the word. Draco knows what he's doing solely by virtue of Severus' intense eye contact. In the same way, Harry knows that Severus is using legilimency in the Sectumsempra chapter.

Although Snape says that legilimency is not "mind reading," but the reading of emotions or intent, he is clearly able to draw out specific images. In the Sectumsempra chapter, it appears that Severus is able to search for particular images, in that case the source of Harry's knowledge of the spell. Or, also likely, Severus was suspicious that Harry was using the potions book and therefore was looking for that specific image and was therefore easily able to draw Harry's mind to that thought.

There are several instances in earlier books where Snape looks intently at Harry in an effort to determine if he's lying. I think Snape is sometimes wrong about whether or not Harry's lying. But Snape is not necessarily known as an accomplished legilimens, but for his ability at occlumency.

It's interesting that JKR said that Harry wouldn't be talented at occlumency because of his emotions. But would that same characteristic that makes him weak at hiding thoughts, give him an "edge" in understanding the thoughts of others and therefore have a latent abiity for legilimency?



Mattew Bates - May 1, 2006 1:56 pm (#43 of 1104)

All this talk of the verbal/nonverbal aspects of Legellimency has me wondering - is there a verbal incantation for Occlumency that Snape "forgot" to teach to Harry? I know Snape has a lot of supporters around these parts, but I wouldn't put it past him - especially when his student is Harry. Wouldn't it make more sense to let him get used to the verbal incantation before expecting him to cast it nonverbally? I'm sure the mindset Snape was asking Harry to get in was important, just like you need to concentrate on a happy memory to get a corporeal Patronus, but I'm getting an odd feeling that Snape was fulfilling his promise to teach Harry by teaching only an advanced technique, and neglecting to teach him the basics.

And, wynnleaf, didn't Dumbledore say that the Death eaters would be jealous of Harry's access to Voldy's thoughts? It sounds like Harry has already had more success with Legellimency on Voldy than anyone else.



HungarianHorntail11 - May 2, 2006 2:38 pm (#44 of 1104)
Edited May 2, 2006 3:39 pm

Now I understand why a 19-year old who has never bought his own shoes gets a 98 million dollar shoes endorsement and the guy battling out with the swill on the street makes 42, 000 a year. It has to do with mindset... TheSaint

Judging by your comment, it seems as though the 'guy battling it out with the swill' found himself in the throes of it, just as Harry did. Am I right?



cindysuewho45 - May 4, 2006 1:59 am (#45 of 1104)

Hi all, yes wynnleaf, I feel that there were times when Snape was using legilimency on Harry that Snape was wrong about what was going on. Like when the fake Mad-eye was taking Snape's potions making stuff and he thought it was Harry and his friends. And Mattew Bates, your on to Snape, if he was on LV side. As some feel, he would have never helped Harry to block LV out of his mind. If I remember right, I think that Snape takes some creadit for Sirius's death when talking to Balla at the start of HBP when they were at his house. Of corse he also said that he gave her full creadit for finishing Sirius off. It sounded like, he felt that he had helped set it all up. Go back and look at this part of HBP, you may find it interresting. If this is the case, then it would only make sense that Snape did not try and teach Harry occlumecy the right way. Just a thought. I will go back and reread this part too.



Magic Words - May 4, 2006 10:38 am (#46 of 1104)

I figured that Snape's taking partial credit for Sirius's death - which was hardly part of a plan and certainly not part of LV's plan - was meant to tip us off that he was also exaggerating about Emmeline Vance's death. I never thought it was fair of Harry to blame Snape for Sirius's death. Yes, he taunted Sirius about having to stay in the house, but he didn't try to send Sirius to the DoM with the other Order members, and the only reason he sent them was to STOP Lucius Malfoy from getting the prophecy. Sirius's death was an accident, even if Snape may have found it convenient, and I think Harry's blaming him is something else Harry will have to overcome in book 7.



wynnleaf - May 5, 2006 6:10 am (#47 of 1104)

cindysuewho45,

Like Magic Words, I agree that Snape's comments about contributing to Sirius' death are just for Bellatrix's benefit. DD told Harry, at the end of OOTP, that Snape had contacted Grimmauld Place while 4 Order members were there, telling them to go to the MOM. At that time, Snape told Sirius to stay at Grimmauld Place and alert DD of the need to go to the MOM. The only way that Harry can "blame" Snape for Sirius' death is to believe that Sirius was so influenced by Snape's earlier taunts (and we don't know - and neither does Harry - that there were more than just a couple of occasions of taunts), that Sirius was compelled by the taunts to risk his life at the MOM. Naturally, Snape doesn't tell Bellatrix anything about how he sent the Order and DD to the MOM! No, he just wants her to believe he helped get Sirius killed.

I think Harry will eventually have to come to terms with his hatred and the way he feeds his hatred by unjustly blaming Snape for Sirius' death. HBP makes clear through the narration that Harry is feeding this anger and hatred. As JKR has said, with DD's death, Harry's hatred toward Snape has become even more personal. I think that's something that JKR wanted to accomplish. She seems to want this more intense hatred -- my guess is so that she can make the eventual forgiveness and finding peace even more of a crucial point for Harry than it would have been if DD had not died.



Solitaire - May 5, 2006 6:12 am (#48 of 1104)

Magic Words: Yes, he taunted Sirius about having to stay in the house, but he didn't try to send Sirius to the DoM with the other Order members ...

Technically, yes ... but I think Snape knew exactly the effect his taunt would have. I think he knew that Sirius would either take a shot at him (giving him reason to defend himself and injure or torture Sirius) or he would go straight to the Ministry to save Harry. Snape knew the depth of love Sirius had for Harry, and I believe he capitalized on that love. JM2K ... and I know I am in the minority.

Sirius's death was an accident

Um ... I hold Bella directly responsible for it, as she cast the spell which caused him to fall through the veil. Since this is Harry's thread, I'll stop there.

Solitaire



frogface - May 5, 2006 6:17 am (#49 of 1104)

Solitaire I think that Magic Words meant by that comment was that neither Snape nor any of the Death Eaters planned to kill Sirius that night. His death just happened to be an opportunity that Bellatrix took.



Magic Words - May 5, 2006 7:22 am (#50 of 1104)

Yes, I meant it wasn't part of any original plan. The original plans were to get the prophecy (Voldemort) and to stop Voldemort from getting the prophecy (Snape and the Order); they had nothing to do with Sirius except insofar as he involved himself.

Harry Potter - Page 3 2134391180

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mona
Mona
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Posts 51 to 100

Post  Mona Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:41 am



Soul Search - May 5, 2006 7:53 am (#51 of 1104)
Edited May 5, 2006 8:54 am

While preventing Voldemort from getting the prophecy (although, no one knew about the prophecy) was important, rescuing Harry from certain death had to be their main goal.

Snape, being a double agent, couldn't go to the ministry, so why didn't he stay and inform Dumbledore? What authority did Snape have within the Order?



cindysuewho45 - May 5, 2006 10:58 am (#52 of 1104)
Edited May 5, 2006 12:19 pm

Hi all, I was not saying that it was all Snape, Bella killed him. I feel that Harry wants it to be Snape, that was responcable for his death, then Harry will not have to blame himself. Harry feels more responcable for Sirius. So if he blames Snape, it helps him feel better at this point in his life. What I was trying to say was, In book 6, page 30, it says " The Dark Lord is satisfied with the information I have passed him on the Order. It led, as perhaps you have guessed, to the recent capture and murder of Emmeline Vance, and it certainly helped dispose of Sirius Black," etc.. If Snape was telling the truth about this, then what part did he play? Was it the part about Snape teaching Harry occlumecy or something else? This is why I said, in my last post, that this would be a good reason for Snape to not let Harry block LV out of his mind. It may be that Harry never had a chance to learn occlumecy the right way. I think that Harry will find that DD was not without fault. As far as having him work with Snape went. DD was a great wizard, but he was also human. All thou, Like Snape says, you overlook DD's greatest weakness, He has to believe the best of people.



virginiaelizabeth - May 5, 2006 12:59 pm (#53 of 1104)
Edited May 5, 2006 2:01 pm

Snape, being a double agent, couldn't go to the ministry, so why didn't he stay and inform Dumbledore? What authority did Snape have within the Order? - Soul Search

Well Snape was at Hogwarts wasn't he, so he sent word to 12GP that Harry had gone to the DoM. He couldn't just leave Hogwarts without Umbridge noticing. He had to stay there and hope that Sirius stayed behind to tell DD.

EDIT: I just realized that Umbridge had been carried away by a heard of mad centaurs......I'll have to think on this a bit more. Maybe it wasn't so easy for him to just leave Hogwarts.

What I was trying to say was, In book 6, page 30, it says " The Dark Lord is satisfied with the information I have passed him on the Order. It led, as perhaps you have guessed, to the recent capture and murder of Emmeline Vance, and it certainly helped dispose of Sirius Black," etc.. If Snape was telling the truth about this, then what part did he play? -cindy

That qoute makes me think that Snape could possibly be lying to Bella here. If he is a member of the Order, and has done the whole secret keeping thing, then what useful info could Snape have possibly told Voldie if you can't tell the secret unless you are the secret keeper. We know that DD is secret keeper for the Order so its not Snape...hmmmmmmmmm.....



cindysuewho45 - May 5, 2006 10:29 pm (#54 of 1104)

Hi all, Telling the secret of where the meeting place of the Order is the only thing that Snape can not tell. So that leaves a lot to talk about. And LV would have killed Snape if he felt that Snape was not on his side. Even if Snape is on the Orders side, he is a double agent. You can not work both sides without both sides thinking you are helping them. So what has Snape done for LV, and how has it effected Harry? Could it have been that he did not teach Harry occlumecy the right way. In doing this, he would have helped LV get inside Harry's mind, and helped bring about Sirius's end.



Anna L. Black - May 6, 2006 6:49 am (#55 of 1104)
Edited May 6, 2006 7:50 am

Maybe it wasn't so easy for him to just leave Hogwarts. - virginiaelizabeth

I was sure, at first, that Snape left Hogwarts and went to 12GP himself, but then I checked the book, and found the reason he stayed:
Professor Snape requested that Sirius remain behind, as he needed somebody to remain at Headquarters to tell me what had happened, for I was due there at any moment. In the meantime he, Professor Snape, intended to search the Forest for you.

But that raises another question - why couldn't he contact Dumbledore himself, the same way he contacted Sirius and the Order? (Using a Patronus, I presume?) Although I don't see how it would've changed anything. (Yes, maybe DD would have come to the MoM earlier, and yet...)



virginiaelizabeth - May 6, 2006 8:35 am (#56 of 1104)

But that raises another question - why couldn't he contact Dumbledore himself, the same way he contacted Sirius and the Order? (Using a Patronus, I presume?)

MJaybe he didn't want to draw attention to DD's hiding place...It was safer for DD to go to 12GP to get the info.



Choices - May 6, 2006 9:54 am (#57 of 1104)

Wasn't that the time that McGonagall was in the hospital because she took 4 stunners to the chest? Dumbledore was also gone, so maybe Snape, being third in charge, couldn't leave the school for that reason.



geauxtigers - May 6, 2006 10:56 am (#58 of 1104)

Yeah she was in St. Mungos at the time so that is a good idea, I think there are millions of reasons that Snape stayed at Hogwarts. The list could go on!



Die Zimtzicke - May 6, 2006 7:53 pm (#59 of 1104)

Maybe Snape had to stay at Hogwarts, because, as Harry realized too late, he was the only Order member left there?

Which makes me wonder why more members of the faculty aren't in the Order, but that's for another thread.



geauxtigers - May 6, 2006 10:26 pm (#60 of 1104)

Yeah I always wondered why Flitwick and Sprout and all weren't in the order, maybe they are, Harry just doesn't know or think that they could help when this happened. Remember he did think there weren't any memebers left even though Snape was still there, he tends to overlook the obvious when he is freaking out about stuff. For example sticking his wand up the troll's nose and not accioing the marauders map when coming back from figuring out the egg clue. The list goes on and I think that the fact he does that will help him in Vold's defeat not sure how, but I think it will after all expelliarmus did in GoF, which really isn't an obvious choice, but it worked. He's got a very powerful gut and determination that its bond to put him out on top in the end....



Mrs Brisbee - May 7, 2006 3:54 am (#61 of 1104)

But that raises another question - why couldn't he contact Dumbledore himself, the same way he contacted Sirius and the Order? (Using a Patronus, I presume?)

No one at Order headquarters seemed able to contact Dumbledore either. Sirius resorted to leaving Kreacher instructions to tell Dumbledore everything when he finally showed up. I think that the much ballyhooed Patronusgram has some serious shortcomings. In HBP, when Tonks tried to contact Hagrid with her Patronus, the message is intercepted by Snape because Hagrid wasn't in the Great Hall yet to take it. This implies that the Patronusgram is sent to a specific location to await the person to which it is supposes to be delivered (or, apparently, anyone who can intercept it), but that it is incapable of seeking out the person the message is supposed to go to. So I think that if Snape or the other Order members didn't know exactly where Dumbledore was, they were out of luck trying to reach him. Those Protean Charmed galleons are starting to look like a much more intelligent idea.



Choices - May 7, 2006 9:36 am (#62 of 1104)

Well, as Harry told Slughorn in HBP - " You don't have to join the Order to teach at Hogwarts......Most of the teachers aren't in it."



Soul Search - May 7, 2006 11:13 am (#63 of 1104)
Edited May 7, 2006 12:15 pm

Choices, "... Most of the teachers aren't in it."

As far as Harry knows. Harry and the trio have only seen those that came to #12. I would be surprised if Flitwick weren't in the order. In HBP, McGonagall did send him to get Snape. Not a slam dunk, but suggestive. I'll bet Hagrid is in the Order, or do we know that already?

Trelawney, no way. The others haven't had much play, so probably not.

I wonder if ghosts can be in the Order?



wynnleaf - May 7, 2006 1:17 pm (#64 of 1104)

We don't know where DD was at the time Snape and the rest of the Order wanted to alert him about the MOM. In fact, it's one of the very curious mysteries of HP -- where does DD go off to when he's neither at Hogwarts, searching for info in LV, or at the MOM? We are never told where he was living while he was away from Hogwarts in OOTP. We can be fairly confident it wasn't 12 Grimmauld Place.

I have wondered since HBP if that will be one of the things that Harry will discover during Book 7. DD told Harry a number of times in HBP that he'd eventually tell him various things, but he never got around to it. I've wondered if some of that related to where ever it is that DD is when he's not at Hogwarts or traveling around on various missions and errands.

In any case, it may have been difficult to contact DD at whatever secret place he seems to hang out at during OOTP.



geauxtigers - May 7, 2006 4:42 pm (#65 of 1104)

Soul Search, I'd say its pretty safe to say Hagrid is in the Order after all he didn't go giant searching for his benefit!



Soul Search - May 7, 2006 4:53 pm (#66 of 1104)

geauxtigers, Hagrid went on the giant mission, with Madame Maxime, for Dumbledore. I'm not sure I would use that to say they were in the Order. The Order is a different thing. While loyal in the extreme, we have seen that Hagrid is not the best at subterfuge.

Come to think of it, some Hogwarts staff may support Dumbledore and help him as needed, but not be suited for something like the Order of the Pheonix.



virginiaelizabeth - May 7, 2006 7:25 pm (#67 of 1104)

I personally think that Hagrid is in the Order, because he is so close to Dumbledore. We may never see him at headquarters, but I think he still is. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Harry says something to the extend of with DD hagrid and McGonagall gone there was no one left to tell, but I could be wrong! Hagrid would be very useful in the order, seeing as his tough giant blood/skin protects him from minor jinxes, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is in the Order.



Solitaire - May 7, 2006 9:35 pm (#68 of 1104)

Dumbledore used the Order's method of communicating with Hagrid back in GoF ... remember? Would he have done that if Hagrid were not in the Order?

Solitaire



Amilia Smith - May 7, 2006 9:45 pm (#69 of 1104)

Hagrid was in Mad Eye's Original Order portrait, wasn't he?

Mills.



Catherine - May 8, 2006 4:08 am (#70 of 1104)
Edited May 8, 2006 5:09 am

I'll bet Hagrid is in the Order, or do we know that already?

Hagrid was in the original Order portrait, Dumbledore communicates with him via Patronus, and Hagrid undertakes secret missions for Dumbledore throughout the novels (delivering Harry to 4 Privet Drive, bringing the Sorcerer's Stone to Hogwarts, taking gifts/messages to the Giants, acting as bodyguard to Harry in HbP in Diagon Alley).

It seems pretty clear that Hagrid is in the Order, and has Dumbledore's trust and confidence.

And back to Harry....



Deb Zawacki - May 11, 2006 7:45 am (#71 of 1104)
Edited May 11, 2006 8:47 am

I realize that in the HP series subtleties in spell casting really aren't always addressed and things are often black or white for JKR's purposes-- except perhaps wingardium leviOsa-- but when it comes to being able to see into someone's mind or break into their thoughts I don't suppose it is arbitrary.

The target must likely have to be asked a direct question and if the asker believes there is deceit can quickly utter the "L" spell and if caught unawares, their lie or deceipt is readily seen. The average person telling a convincing "white lie" or otherwise probably wouldn't expect to have someone read their true thoughts--it would be a rarity... And I doubt if you can just walk up behind someone-cast the spell and know what they are thinking--eye contact may be just as important in that spell as others.

In a highly stressful situation, where a Snape or a Voldemort who is sufficiently scarey and intimidating to begin with L-Spells you, awareness of their power and the ability to "kick in" occlumency powers probably is a developed skill.

We have all told lies at some point and when challenged insisted on our innocence or truth--a natural defense....even when we knew we were lying. That would be anyone's natural reaction. The need to be able to block would NOT be second nature. And probably whether the "L" word is heard or not, the target might not even realize what has happened unless they were told. It isn't truth serum--they aren't forced to tell the truth--their mind betrays them is all.



rambkowalczyk - May 14, 2006 7:03 pm (#72 of 1104)

I just thought of a way that Harry can find out what happened at Godric's Hollow. The Pensieve. Although Harry doesn't consciously remember all the details, he should still be able to extract his memory and the pensieve should be able to fill in the details. Of course at this point Harry doesn't have a need to see how his parents died. As far as he knows no one else was there.



Amilia Smith - May 14, 2006 7:29 pm (#73 of 1104)

Ah, but he specifically stated that he would be going to visit Godrics Hollow next year. So hopefully his curiosity will be peaked and he will think to try out the Penseive.

Mills.



HungarianHorntail11 - May 14, 2006 7:29 pm (#74 of 1104)

Now, if he only knew how to get out of the pensieve. . .



Amilia Smith - May 14, 2006 7:30 pm (#75 of 1104)

Good point.



Solitaire - May 14, 2006 8:03 pm (#76 of 1104)

Yeah, that part always bothers me, too.



Magic Words - May 14, 2006 8:14 pm (#77 of 1104)

I'm sure Harry could fix that in about ten seconds, though. All he needs is Hermione and a book on pensieves.

That could also be a plot device, though.... if he goes in to look for something and ends up seeing more than he meant to, he could learn something completely unexpected.



Solitaire - May 14, 2006 8:18 pm (#78 of 1104)

I've always wondered if it is possible to get trapped in a Pensieve. What if someone were to break it while he is inside? Then again, is he all the way inside? I kind of got the idea that, while some shadow of Harry himself seems to be able to roam around and follow people, it is really just his head that is inside. Didn't Snape grab him by the collar and jerk him out? Hm ... perhaps this post is better for the Pensieve thread.

Solitaire



geauxtigers - May 15, 2006 12:51 pm (#79 of 1104)

yeah its just your head in the penseive because Harry felt DD touch his shoulder and turned his head and look out and saw DD there. Snape did grab Harry by the collar too. Wouldn't it just be a matter of picking your head up? Harrys' never tried has he, hes always been pulled out by someone else.



frogface - May 15, 2006 1:10 pm (#80 of 1104)

I suppose something must happen once the memory has ended.



Soul Search - May 15, 2006 1:23 pm (#81 of 1104)

geauxtigers, I noticed that too. Harry has never left a pensive scene of his own violition. Probably nothing to it, of course.



virginiaelizabeth - May 15, 2006 3:33 pm (#82 of 1104)

Yeah Harry also says that he felt his feet leave the office floor, so that makes me think that you do leave it, but the whole Snape grabbing his colar and DD pulling him out thing just doesn't fit.

We are getting off topic here so I'm moving this to the pensieve thread if anyone else wants to discuss it!

Now back to Harry.....



journeymom - Jun 5, 2006 1:02 pm (#83 of 1104)

Hello all! I wonder what you think Harry would do with the soul-less body of Lord Voldemort. Would he destroy (kill) the body? Or would he put the body in Azkaban for the rest of his (its?) life? Or something else? Would it be poetic justice for Snape to AK Lord Voldemort?

This comes from the theory that dementors could do-in LV for Harry, thus saving Harry from having to perform an unforgiveable. That he very possible is incapable of doing anyway.



Soul Search - Jun 5, 2006 3:12 pm (#84 of 1104)

I think a "pertify" spell, like what happened with the indirect basilisk stare, would save everyone a lot of trouble. The Ministry entryway needs some new statues. Might be a reminder of what happens when the Ministry cares more for its self than its mission.



haymoni - Jun 5, 2006 3:47 pm (#85 of 1104)

Maybe Voldy could be put in a "Brain Wrap" - you know, like bubble wrap.



Pinky Prime - Jun 5, 2006 8:02 pm (#86 of 1104)

Was Snape using Legilimency on Trelawney the whole time and getting buzz sounds? I surely hope that Harry will figure out why Snape was at Hogwarts in the first place! Legilimency or not I think Harry can sense evil. That may well be a latent ability.

I apologize, I may not be rightly interpreting the portion of the prophesy that states "neither can live while the other survives". I mean what does the term "LIVE" mean? Does that mean beyond death by killing the soul of the other. LV taking Harry's soul and making it into a Horcrux as a replacement or Harry having other ways of destroying a man like DD told LV in OOtP. It seems to me that the prophesy means that both must die if anyone of them lives. (confused)

Don't want to sleep on this but...



journeymom - Jun 5, 2006 9:44 pm (#87 of 1104)

Pinky, you make a good point, and I'm not clear on it at all. As far as "neither can live while the other survives" is concerned, Harry and Voldemort have been coexisting now for 2 or so years? At some point during HBP Dd points out to Harry that it isn't the prophecy that is forcing Harry or Voldemort to do anything (though Voldemort might not realize that). Harry continues to go after LV because LV killed his parents, Sirius, Cedric and numerous other innocent people and he wants LV stopped.

Anyway, so much for what motivates Harry.



Magic Words - Jun 6, 2006 4:30 am (#88 of 1104)

Journeymom and Pinky, I'd say the only logical conclusion is that Harry and Voldemort are coexisting, but neither one is "living" in the way the prophecy defined the term. We've already heard debate on whether Voldemort is living (if he can't be killed). Harry's a little tougher. It could mean simply he's unable to live a normal life, or it could be something like a Horcrux.



Die Zimtzicke - Jun 6, 2006 8:05 pm (#89 of 1104)

Sorry, (Putting on dungbomb proof suit here) but I think it's quite possible Harry is so connected to Voldemort that he has to die to defeat him. Many hero stories end that way. The hero completes his mission, but never lives a normal life.

And at least Harry'd be with his parents, Dumbledore and Sirius again, having that next great adventure, while Voldemort would be what he always feared to be.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 7, 2006 4:43 am (#90 of 1104)
Edited Jun 7, 2006 5:46 am

And at least Harry'd be with his parents, Dumbledore and Sirius again

For that reason, Die, I tend to think that no matter how it ends up, I'm okay with it. With his friends in Potterville or in the next great adventure with his family.

That might also play a role in his bravery. After all, if Big V fears death and Harry doesn't, it will confound Big V to no end. I venture to say even, that he may end up outwardly fearing Harry (as opposed to fearing what the Prophecy has given). It would be nice to see him running in fear of Harry for a few pages.



Steve Newton - Jun 7, 2006 4:50 am (#91 of 1104)

HH11, for some reason your comment makes me wonder if the rebounded curse didn't somehow make a horcrux for Harry. I have no idea how this could have happened. Somehow his soul was wrenched from his body by the AK and landed somewhere convenient. I'm blithering, sorry.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 7, 2006 6:36 am (#92 of 1104)
Edited Jun 7, 2006 8:09 am

I tried to make it work, Steve, (just cleared a lengthy post that wound itself into tight spirals ) but if it requires a torn soul bit and murder, it doesn't seem possible, as DD referred to Harry as "whole" at least once in the books to my recollection. I would say that counters the possibility of Harry having lost a piece of himself in that sense.

EDIT: Sounds good to me, haymoni.



haymoni - Jun 7, 2006 7:03 am (#93 of 1104)

I think I'm OK with Harry dying as well.

Of course, I prefer him alive and well, married to Ginny - I'll even take the whole MOM-and-12-kids prophesy.



TheSaint - Jun 7, 2006 1:28 pm (#94 of 1104)
Edited Jun 7, 2006 2:29 pm

What if Harry is the boy who died...but his death was the one that was stoppered. Are the dementors attracted to him because he is already dead? Is Ron's joke in book one about hHrry being a ghost real? Has Jo loaded this book with so much herring that anything is possible? LOL



Solitaire - Jun 7, 2006 3:34 pm (#95 of 1104)

Are the dementors attracted to him because he is already dead?

Well, he would certainly seem to have a soul, because the Dementors were continually trying to suck it out. Also, he has memories. Would a person who is already dead be able to have memories? It seems unlikely ... but that's JM2K. And yes, there does seem to be a lot of "herring." Whether it is red or not is anyone's guess!

Solitaire



TheSaint - Jun 7, 2006 8:55 pm (#96 of 1104)
Edited Jun 7, 2006 9:56 pm

Well, he would certainly seem to have a soul, because the Dementors were continually trying to suck it out. Solitaire

Are you suggesting that since he died, he has no soul, even if they brought him back to life? Boy I hope that is not true..or I am Inferi, and I do have memories..except for a few days worth that is. If that is true would DD have one if he was brought back to life?

My thought is, that if he is not properly dead..then he still has his soul.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 8, 2006 3:59 am (#97 of 1104)
Edited Jun 8, 2006 5:00 am

TheSaint, I took Solitaire's comment to mean that if Harry is dead, his soul has departed and what remains is an imprint, such as the pictures. (I can't see him sticking around like NHN and BTW, wouldn't he recognize him as a fellow ghost? Digressing, sorry) It doesn't seem likely that dementors would pursue such an 'entity', as it is happy memories they seem to thrive on. I would venture to guess that such an existence would not have a conscious state of being, either. Kind of like the essence of Big V versus his horcruxes. Correct me if I'm wrong, Solitaire.

Not saying that Harry can't be dead, as the narrative viewpoint has aroused my suspicions, but there would be a lot of gaps that would need to be filled for this to be the case. Perhaps you can further detail "not properly dead".



TheSaint - Jun 8, 2006 4:22 am (#98 of 1104)

Just as some thought that Snape had stoppered death and confined it in DD's arm over the summer, supposed Harry's death via AK was also stoppered. One of 80,000 discarded theories along the way. LOL

The Dementors, his attraction to the veil, Ron's comment. Just one of those things that was in the works pile.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 8, 2006 6:09 am (#99 of 1104)

Okay, let's try to work through this. The 'stopper in death' phrase has stuck with too many readers for it not to have resounding significance.

Well, it does seem as though Snape knew Big V had targeted all three Potters and it is possible that there was enough time for DD to send Snape to invoke some form of potions protection. If he and Lily were classmates, she would most likely trust him (James would have to be out of the way, though, because he certainly would not). Snape would be taking quite a chance at getting caught by Big V (or his spies) with the Potters trying to help. That would explain DD's vouching for Snape at the trial in the Pensieve.

The chapter in Book 6 where Harry, awaiting DD's arrival, awakens at the Dursleys with the newspapers strewn about sticks with me. He was described as "ghostly" and then orange, which to me, shows progression - perhaps not dying. Can anyone be kind enough to provide the excerpt?

Still, though, we'd need to define Harry's existence throughout the six books.

FWIW TheSaint, it's nice to see you are still with us.



haymoni - Jun 8, 2006 6:11 am (#100 of 1104)

I always felt that because Harry had so few happy memories for the Dementors to feed from, he was closer to having only his soul left, so they would be drawn to him.

Harry Potter - Page 3 2134391180

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mona
Mona
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Posts 101 to 150

Post  Mona Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:43 am



journeymom - Jun 8, 2006 6:49 am (#101 of 1104)

If Harry turns out to have been dead this entire time I think I will be only slightly less angry then if it turns out the whole story was just somebody's dream. Ron wakes up in the last chapter of Book 7; "George, you'll never believe the weird dream I just had. There was this evil over lord, see, named Lord Voldemort." George rolls eyes, "Voldemort, eh? Very creative." Ron, "No really, and there was this kid at Hogwarts named Harry Potter and he and I were friends and he was supposed to Vanquish Lord Voldemort. Dumbledore let us get away with all kinds of stuff. It was amazing."



haymoni - Jun 8, 2006 7:00 am (#102 of 1104)

Oh please!!

You know the dream would be Hermione's!!!

What WERE you thinking???



Snuffles - Jun 8, 2006 7:08 am (#103 of 1104)

Rofl haymoni, so true!!



Potter Ace - Jun 8, 2006 8:12 am (#104 of 1104)

HH11,

I like your thought of DD sending Snape to GH ahead of LV but do we know if Snape was a teacher at that time? I thought the trust that DD placed in Snape was due to his remorse for having told LV the portion of the prophesy he did hear. I like your idea because I never thought that was a good enough reason to trust the man, anybody can show remorse, you idea shows that there might be more to that whole story.

Sorry, back to Harry



HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 8, 2006 8:21 am (#105 of 1104)
Edited Jun 8, 2006 9:21 am

Thanks, Potter Ace. Did he have to be a teacher at the time? I am a bit fuzzy with regard to the timing. I can see DD telling him that Harry must be protected at all costs, though. It would explain Snape's disdain for Harry perhaps having had to choose him over Lily if that's the case. (Boy, I am getting mired in my thoughts here.)

Should we take this to the Snape thread?? I am only 250+ posts behind on that thread.



Potter Ace - Jun 8, 2006 8:33 am (#106 of 1104)

HH11,

Perhaps the GH thread is better. I think that there is something to your thought, it may easily be dismissed but until then, off the GH I go.



wynnleaf - Jun 8, 2006 12:00 pm (#107 of 1104)

If you guys are taking those topics to other threads, I like to present a curiosity and question for all as a new topic.

First, I apologize, but I don't have the books to quote from right now.

I noticed in OOTP last night that when Sirius gave Harry the mirror at the end of Christmas holidays, Harry put it away and at the time the text says that he knew that he would never do anything to lure Sirius out of the safety of Grimmauld Place. Well, of course, that was a case of "famous last words" sort of, in that it turned out Harry's actions were what "lured" Sirius out of Grimmauld Place. I'm not in any way trying to blame Harry; I'm just pointing out that Harry's thoughts of what he "knew" he'd "never" do turned out to be incorrect.

Later, at the end of OOTP and after DD had explained events, Harry ran into Snape. I think it is around the same scene where Harry talks with Snape and McGonagall comes back from St Mungos. Anyway, we get another description of what Harry "knew" he would "never" do. It says that Harry "knew" that no matter what, he'd "never" forgive Snape. While we don't know the outcome of that one, if Snape is on the good side then Harry will almost certainly find himself forgiving Snape in Book 7 -- even if it's only posthumously.

Then, toward the end of HBP, Harry is thinking about Fawkes leaving and once again he "knew" that Fawkes had left, "never" to return. (I may have the words slightly wrong, but Harry's thought is still the same.)

I'm starting to wonder if, knowingly or unknowingly, JKR has used that device of having Harry "know" something would "never" happen as a signal that it will in fact happen later.

Can anyone recall any other times in the books where Harry "knew" that something would "never" happen, and yet it did?

I'm very curious about this one.



TheSaint - Jun 8, 2006 3:36 pm (#108 of 1104)

No, but good catch...will have to look.



geauxtigers - Jun 8, 2006 6:17 pm (#109 of 1104)

That is a good catch, I'll keep my eyes peeled!



Dobby Socks - Jun 9, 2006 2:46 am (#110 of 1104)

Quite intriguing, wynnleaf. I can’t think of any other instances off the top of my head, but I’ll, uh, “third” The Saint and geauxtigers and watch for this on rereads. Especially since I believe it very likely Harry will forgive Snape, and that Fawkes will return.

This would be a nifty pattern/device for JKR to use. It seems to fit with Harry’s blinding himself to the truth at times out of a misguided, but seemingly justified stubbornness (justified in Harry's eyes). (Does this make any sense? Probably not. I’m in dire need of coffee.) And, if this is the case, I wonder how it would reconcile with his habit of occasionally sensing future events in dreams.



Soul Search - Jun 9, 2006 6:57 am (#111 of 1104)
Edited Jun 9, 2006 7:58 am

wynnleaf, I'll "fourth" that good catch. Nothing comes to mind, but I will keep my eyes open on re-reads. That sort of statement usually breezes by, unless specifically looking for it. I think you are on to something.



wynnleaf - Jun 9, 2006 7:20 am (#112 of 1104)
Edited Jun 9, 2006 8:21 am

I'm going to have to pay attention in re-reads. It's going be a hard thing to remember to do. But I wonder if it could be an unconscious device of JKR's. If that was true, it would be could be even more revealing...

Harry "knew" he would "never".....



nthdavid - Jun 9, 2006 7:30 am (#113 of 1104)

It's like at the end of HBP where Harry says he's not coming back to Hogwarts. "I'm not coming back even if it does reopen"



Lina - Jun 9, 2006 11:21 am (#114 of 1104)

I like your idea Wynnleaf. When I was reading that part about Fawkes I was wondering how could he know something like that? But the way that you have put it down, it makes much more sense to me. Thanks.



wynnleaf - Jun 9, 2006 11:32 am (#115 of 1104)

nthdavid,

That's very possibly another one. Now we need some from earlier in the books -- some that show Harry thinking he "knows" one thing about what he'll do, or what will happen, but the opposite coming to pass.

Or to disprove the idea, we'd need to see places where Harry "knows" something like that for certain, and it's correct.

Now that wouldn't apply to just anything Harry knows. This is in particular things that JKR sets up with the "Harry knew he would never...." sort of pattern.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 9, 2006 5:09 pm (#116 of 1104)

wynnleaf, great catch. Will have to skim through the books in an effort to find something fitting.



TheSaint - Jun 9, 2006 5:59 pm (#117 of 1104)

Looking through POA for another issue...

Should like to point out Harry's statement at the end of Chapter Four...

I'm not going to be murdered. Harry said out loud. *shiver*



HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 9, 2006 8:25 pm (#118 of 1104)
Edited Jun 9, 2006 9:25 pm

That may well be a good indicator, TheSaint. He wasn't murdered in PoA, was he? (How's that for a positive spin?)



Pinky Prime - Jun 10, 2006 6:31 pm (#119 of 1104)

I think that I'm gonna put a few posts on hold for this!

Wow wynnleaf what a challenge!



HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 11, 2006 2:35 pm (#120 of 1104)

Sorry to deviate, will keep looking for examples though, wynnleaf.

I was going through CoS and caught this: Riddle laughed, a high, cold laugh that didn't suit him. It made the hairs stand up on the back of Harry's neck.

Didn't his first impression of Ollivander have the same effect on Harry??? I find his instincts to be very good. That is not a good sign, IMHO.



Magic Words - Jun 11, 2006 3:58 pm (#121 of 1104)

Ollivander? I saw on Mugglenet that his name is an anagram of "an evil lord." Let me see if that checks out... yep. It does.



Potter Ace - Jun 12, 2006 1:25 pm (#122 of 1104)

I think that we will find many clues with the "never" search that wynnleaf suggest. Never having written a book but many papers for college and such, I'm sure that JKR would use the outline approach to create her road map of where she wanted to go this the various story lines and the series.

Wynnleaf may have found the "rosetta stone" to finding out what will transpire in book 7. Great observation



Solitaire - Jun 12, 2006 9:25 pm (#123 of 1104)
Edited Jun 12, 2006 10:26 pm

Oops! Well, in PS/SS, Chapter 16, Harry makes the following "never" statement:

If I get caught before I can get to the Stone, well, I'll have to go back to the Dursleys and wait for Voldemort to find me there, it's only dying a bit later than I would have, because I'm never going over to the Dark Side! I'm going through that trapdoor tonight and nothing you two say is going to stop me! Voldemort killed my parents, remember?"

Hm ... that's one "never" I hope remains a never!

Solitaire



TheSaint - Jun 13, 2006 5:10 am (#124 of 1104)

Me too, though I find it interesting that James said exactly the same thing about never going to the Dark Side.



wynnleaf - Jun 13, 2006 5:22 am (#125 of 1104)

Hm, I think if we take my supposition broadly, it falls completely apart.

I was not intending to say that every time Harry says he'll never do something, that it's important and may not be true. If that was the case, I'd be theorizing that JKR is making Harry out to be completely unaware of his own self. And that's not what I'm considering.

What I'm wondering about is the semantic device where JKR has the narration read, more or less, "harry knew that he would never...." What I was thinking wasn't that JKR was using Harry's thoughts about himself to intentionally deceive the reader, or to show that Harry was deluded about his own motivations.

I'm suggesting that JKR is perhaps unintentionally signaling her own intentions by using this sort of phrase in the narration to preface a false supposition. Or she could be knowingly doing this.

It's actually a fairly common device in a story, for someone to be so certain that they would never do a particular thing, and then they end up doing it. But to signal such a thing with a particular phrase could be unconscious or intentional.



Magic Words - Jun 13, 2006 7:45 am (#126 of 1104)

It seems to me that this is a way of making Harry's feelings very clear without necessarily backing them up with evidence. She doesn't need to say "Harry knew he'd never turn to the Dark Side" because we already know he wouldn't; his actions show it. The fact that he says so only reinforces that. When he "knew he would never" lure Sirius out of Grimmauld Place, JKR didn't have the ability to back up the sentiment with actions.



wynnleaf - Jun 13, 2006 8:13 am (#127 of 1104)

When he "knew he would never" lure Sirius out of Grimmauld Place, JKR didn't have the ability to back up the sentiment with actions.

Well, no, because it depended on future actions. And of course, JKR later shows us that Harry was wrong. Not intentionally wrong, certainly. But he inadvertently lured Sirius out of Grimmauld Place to his death. And the greater irony is that if he'd opened the package that provoked the original "he would never lure Sirius" thought, he'd have not gone to the MOM.



Lina - Jun 17, 2006 2:24 am (#128 of 1104)

I agree about the irony, Wynnleaf.

Harry would have never intentionally lured Sirius from the Grimmauld Place but the fact is that he did it unconsciously. Now, the question is if it is possible to turn to the dark side unconsciously? If you count Harry's use of Sectumsempra as turning to the dark side, than it's happened already. I think that a person can unconsciously do something dark at some point or work for the dark side unconsciously if they have been deceived, but they can't turn to the dark side unconsciously.

So I see a big difference between the statements he knew he would never lure Sirius out of Grimmauld Place and I'm never going over to the Dark Side and I think that Wynnleaf's theory still can work. The most important place where I think it should work is about never hearing again the Phoenix' song.

Yet, I find it interesting that Harry was not at all curious to see what was the thing that Sirius gave him and decide if he will use it only after that. Once that he saw what it was, he could have used it just to talk to Sirius, he didn't have to use it to complain about Snape. But it really shows the way that young people are - curious about things that they shouldn't be and then trying to be straight on the wrong places. Maybe not only young people...



Magic Words - Jun 17, 2006 6:43 am (#129 of 1104)
Edited Jun 17, 2006 7:59 am

I don't know, Lina, I think a lot of turning to the Dark Side is done unconsciously. I mean, who wakes up one morning and says "Forget this, I'm gonna be evil?" (Other than Tom Riddle?) Darth Vader, for instance - he got so wrapped up in pursuing something he considered good that he was willing to go to any lengths, and when people got in his way he managed to convince himself that they were evil for trying to stop him when really they were trying to protect him from himself. Next thing you know, he's massacred the Jedi, and Padme dies anyway because while trying to save her he's given in to his hate.

Edit after HH11's post: I wish I thought Sectumsempra was a learning experience for Harry. But in the cave against the Inferi, he tried maybe three spells, then started yelling Sectumsempra. I'd think it would be fairly obvious that corpses wouldn't be bothered by bleeding, so it has even less effect than something like Incarcerous (sp?) but isn't it the only spell he tries more than once? He's under pressure and turns almost immediately to Dark Magic.

Now, I'm not saying Harry will do anything like that. But I think he may go all the way to the brink, more like Luke, who kept getting angry and attacking Vader before coming to his senses. He's attempted enough unforgivables that I think he'll need to come to terms with that at some point.

Edit after HH11's post: I wish I thought Sectumsempra was a learning experience for Harry. But in the cave against the Inferi, he tried maybe three spells, then started yelling Sectumsempra. I'd think it would be fairly obvious that corpses wouldn't be bothered by bleeding, so it has even less effect than something like Incarcerous (sp?) but isn't it the only spell he tries more than once? He's under pressure and turns almost immediately to Dark Magic.



HungarianHorntail11 - Jun 17, 2006 6:45 am (#130 of 1104)

but they can't turn to the dark side unconsciously. I agree, Lina. Though he can make mistakes and become mislead, common sense or the conscience kicks in at some point. I think Harry's use of Sectumsempra was a true learning experience for him. He does strike me as someone who learns from his mistakes.



wynnleaf - Jun 17, 2006 7:49 am (#131 of 1104)

I think Harry's use of Sectumsempra was a true learning experience for him. He does strike me as someone who learns from his mistakes.

I am surprised actually at what Harry has not seemed to learn from or reflect upon. In GOF, very shortly after learning about the Unforgiveables, Harry finds himself in potions class with his typical feelings of hatred for Snape, vividly imagining how good it would feel to put Snape under the cruciatus curse. He pictures Snape writhing in pain like the spider. Then, at the end of OOTP, he attempts to use the cruciatus on Bellatrix. Even after her comments to him that you have to really mean it, he doesn't seem to ever reflect on what it meant for him to be willing to attempt that curse. He again attempts the cruciatus curse on Snape at the end of HBP. Once again, his intended victim comments directly on his use of an Unforgiveable -- "no unforgiveables from you Potter!" or something like that. But Harry still never seems to give it a second thought.

No, I don't think Harry's going to end up on the Dark Side. But I do think JKR is intentionally showing Harry flirting with the Dark side in his desire to satisfy his hatreds. And, thus far, he doesn't recognize what he's doing.



journeymom - Jun 17, 2006 9:54 am (#132 of 1104)
Edited Jun 17, 2006 10:56 am

But I do think JKR is intentionally showing Harry flirting with the Dark side in his desire to satisfy his hatreds. wynnleaf

The Sorting Hat did want to put him in Slytherin, after all. But I'm not in the least concerned that ultimately Harry won't do the Right thing. He will.

But he's still a young person. He's not completely formed. He makes mistakes. He holds grudges. His temper gets out of control. Now, if he's still running off half cocked and thoughtlessly using unknown hexes when he's, say, 37 years old (Snape's age?) then he'll have a problem.

Edited to add, I meant to include that I agree, Harry is pretty frustrating, though. It does seem like he'd have learned from last year to stop and think a bit.



wynnleaf - Jun 17, 2006 11:56 am (#133 of 1104)
Edited Jun 17, 2006 12:59 pm

The Sorting Hat did want to put him in Slytherin, after all. But I'm not in the least concerned that ultimately Harry won't do the Right thing. He will.

I agree that JKR almost certainly wants Harry to stand on the Right side in the end. But I find it interesting that she has had him leaning toward these Dark curses for 3 books (3 years) and has not yet had him realize the problems in this.

On another note, I take exception to the idea the being almost placed by the Hat in Slytherin indicates a Dark side to Harry, or anyone else. Certainly we are told that most (not all) of the DE's came from Slytherin. But JKR is also rather clearly (through the Sorting Hat songs if nothing else) wanting to work her way to showing us that all types of people, including those from Slytherin, can work together to defeat Evil. Unfortunately, I think she's convinced most of her readers that Slytherin and Slytherin characteristics are synonymous with evil, so she's got quite a big apple cart to turnover in book 7 if she wants to convince her readers that Slytherin characteristics are just as important to the Good side as the other houses.

I am wondering if part of what she will do is gradually make her readers aware that being Gryffindor doesn't absolve one's actions from dark intentions. It concerns me that HRH, as well as other Gryffindors have done some pretty bad things, some of which have truly harmed others or have been rather cruel, but without any repercussions in the books -- that is, we get no message, either from the characters who did those acts, from other characters, or from narration, that we should be in any way concerned that the "good" characters did very wrong things.



Soul Search - Jun 17, 2006 3:37 pm (#134 of 1104)

The sorting hat did not want to put Harry in Slytherin.

At his sorting, Harry says "NOT SLYTHERIN." The Hat says "you would do well in Slytherin." Later, when Harry confronts the Hat in Dumbledore's office, the Hat confirms "you would have done well in Slytherin."

The Hat never says Harry belongs in Slytherin.

Harry would likely have done well in Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw. Well, maybe not real well in Ravenclaw. Point being, that the Hat was playing with Harry because Harry tried to tell the Hat where not to put him. At Harry's sorting The Hat has always sounded a bit flip to me. The Hat's "would do well in Slytherin" was also a useful part of the storyline when Harry was doubting himself in CoS. Harry's drawing out Gryffindor's sword confirmed, without doubt, that Harry belongs in Gryffindor.

Wormtail is the only Gryffindor we know that turned evil. Even with him it is more an evil of cowardice and convenience.

I am not sure I would attach too much significance to Harry's use of Sectumsempra against the inferi. They are not living beings, after all.

That said, I do think Harry will skirt very close to using the dark arts, especially to save himself or someone else.

I would go even further with the cooperation of all four Hogwart's houses. Each house brings essential skills to the fight. I would suggest that all four houses will be required to defeat Voldemort's evil.



Die Zimtzicke - Jun 17, 2006 5:03 pm (#135 of 1104)

Sectumsempra hacked me off. Harry is supposed to be great at DADA, and all he could think of to do against Draco was use a spell he knew nothing about? Then the fact that he almost killed another student was blown away be the fact that the entire school went on to the next piece of Potter-gossip: that he was dating Ginny. Harry is not just flirting with evil...in HBP, for me, he was started to buy into his "special" staus and play the big man on campus. And I don't like that. Harry was an outcast for most of the first five books, and now he's trying to be supercool. It's not the Harry I came to know and love.



Choices - Jun 17, 2006 5:14 pm (#136 of 1104)

I definitely got the impression that Slytherin was one of the houses that The Sorting Hat considered for Harry. The Hat said the decision was "very difficult" and in listing Harry's attributes, it listed traits that each of the four houses values. Harry says, "Not Slytherin" and The Hat assures him he could be great and Slytherin would help him on his way to greatness. Sounds to me like The Hat was pushing for Slytherin, but Harry says no and the decision is made for Gryffindor. I think possibly The Hat was doing the same thing that Trelawney did when she told Harry he was born in winter - sensing some of the traits/powers Voldemort transferred to Harry when he was a baby.



haymoni - Jun 17, 2006 6:02 pm (#137 of 1104)

I thought the hat said Harry was difficult to place.

It then ran through the list of characteristics that belong to each house.

Harry, having been influenced by Hagrid and Draco and also worried that he wouldn't be placed in ANY house, said, "Anything but Slytherin."

The hat said, "Not Slytherin?", although I'd be my wand arm that the hat would say, "Not Hufflepuff?" or "Not Ravenclaw?" if Harry had named them instead of Slytherin.

I think Harry was to be in Gryffindor all along.



wynnleaf - Jun 17, 2006 6:03 pm (#138 of 1104)
Edited Jun 17, 2006 7:08 pm

Soul Search said: The sorting hat did not want to put Harry in Slytherin.

Each house brings essential skills to the fight. I would suggest that all four houses will be required to defeat Voldemort's evil.

Choices said: I definitely got the impression that Slytherin was one of the houses that The Sorting Hat considered for Harry.

While I agree with Choice, it really shouldn't make any difference in terms of whether or not Harry is more or less likely to lean toward evil. If Slytherin house attributes are just as valuable as Gryffindor's it shouldn't make any difference which house the Sorting Hat recommended as to whether or not Harry could ever turn dark.

Soul Search said: Wormtail is the only Gryffindor we know that turned evil.

No, that's wrong. Wormtail is the only Gryffindor we know of that turned to LV. Being evil, or being able to do evil, is not the sole province of LV and the DE's.

Harry, or any other Gryffindor, can do evil things and even perhaps find themselves leaning further toward evil than the occasional action. That doesn't mean they'd be DE's.

You see, I think Slytherins are more likely to join LV when they turn evil. Umbridge is very evil, but found plenty of outlets for her evil in the MOM. She apparently didn't join LV. But that doesn't mean she's not just as willing as any DE to do evil. And I don't get the impression that she was a Slytherin, although I suppose she could have been.

The Sorting Hat said that Harry would do well in Slytherin, not because of bad tendencies it saw in Harry, but because of some good tendencies. The desire to prove himself is not bad at all -- it can lead to the willingness to work hard to do well.

Bravery is not purely good either. Brash bravery is dangerous.

As to how important it is that Harry's used a number of dark curses now -- well, it must be important. JKR has had him consider it vividly in GOF, use unforgiveables in OOTP and HBP, and use what he knew to be a Dark curse, sectumsemptra, several times, twice after he knew it was Dark. JKR didn't just stumble into writing that. She's done it for a reason, therefore, yes, it's important.

All the other members of the DA use various jinxes, hexes, etc. and fight well without ever resorting to dark curses. It's Harry that does it. Most of the time, except for the inferi, it's because his hate is soooo great at the moment.

Now what we don't know is where JKR is going to go with it.

Since almost all of Harry's use of unforgiveables is for people he hates (Bella, Snape, and Draco), and because JKR made a big deal in an interview that Harry's hate for Snape is particularly personal now -- I think JKR wants to make some sort of point in Book 7 of the degree of Harry's hate. She may end up relating that to his use of unforgiveables.

It's just my opinion, of course, but since JKR has told us several times that it's Harry's love that's the power he's got that so important, my guess is that she's going to have him deal with that hate first -- before he can deal with LV.

Just my opinion, of course.



virginiaelizabeth - Jun 17, 2006 8:06 pm (#139 of 1104)
Edited Jun 17, 2006 9:08 pm

Harry is not just flirting with evil...in HBP, for me, he was started to buy into his "special" staus and play the big man on campus. And I don't like that. Harry was an outcast for most of the first five books, and now he's trying to be supercool. It's not the Harry I came to know and love. Die

I find that really intresting, I haven't noticed anything to suggest this can you give me some examples?I don't think taht Harry has ever enjoyed the spotlight, nor do I think he ever will. He has always made a big deal about how much he hates when other people are talking about him and staring. He doesn't like it and I don't think he's trying to be cool. He seems the same to me.

As for the sorting hat: I think it's just like what Dumbledore said "It is our choices that show who we really are, far more than oue abilities." That for me sums it all up, Harry has some qualities/abilities that would do well in Slytherin, and he has qualities and abilities that would do well in Gryfinndor. But when it comes down to choosing which one is right for him, and he choses to go to Gryfinndor over Slytherin, that says more about him than what he is capable of. You wouldn't be friends with some one soley based on thier ability to do this or that, it would be more about the kind of person they are.

I also agree with what you said wynnleaf about how there is a pro and a con to each quality and there are pros and cons to each house. Nobody is perfect!



Laura W - Jun 18, 2006 2:17 am (#140 of 1104)
Edited Jun 18, 2006 4:04 am

wynnleaf wrote; "Unfortunately, I think she's convinced most of her readers that Slytherin and Slytherin characteristics are synonymous with evil, so she's got quite a big apple cart to turnover in book 7 if she wants to convince her readers that Slytherin characteristics are just as important to the Good side as the other houses."

I agree with you. Heck, in PS, Hagrid actually says, "There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin." (chapter Diagon Alley) Yes, I know we are talking about Hagrid, but Jo *did* have him say it. That is a totally unambiguous statement. It also is untrue we discover later. For much of PoA we believe that Sirius Black "went bad" and then find out that Peter Pettigrew "went bad" - both Gryffindors. And then there's that Hufflepuff, Zacharias Smith, who looks to be a bit on the shifty side. (And those are only the one's we know about.) So, why did she have Hagrid tell Harry (and us) that? I'm beginning to think that nothing Jo writes is a throw-away comment. Unless, of course, for Hagrid, "went bad" means just *one* thing: joining with Voldemort.

Shifting gears somewhat ... So, all of you are pointing out where Harry attempted to use Dark Magic (ie - against Bellatrix, against Snape) and actually did - albeit not knowing what the result would be - (ie - Sectumsempra against Draco). (An aside -- Can you think of anything more stupid for any witch or wizard to do than to perform a spell when they don't know what it does?! Sheesh!) Yet, in HBP, chapter Horcruxes, Dumbledore says, "... and yet, Harry, despite your privileged insight into Voldemort's world ..., you have never been seduced by the Dark Arts,.." As we know, and as he goes on to say, DD means the 16-year old Harry has never had the desire to join the DEs. That's one thing, of course, but "never been seduced by the Dark Arts"? It sounds like some of the people on this thread disagree. So, why did DD use those words when describing Harry? Is he wrong? (Dumbledore? Never!!) Or is his love for Harry getting in the way of reality?

(Too many questions; my head is starting to hurt.)

Laura



Soul Search - Jun 18, 2006 6:24 am (#141 of 1104)

never been seduced by the Dark Arts?

Do we have one of those "never" storyline signals we were discussing a while ago?



Magic Words - Jun 18, 2006 8:48 am (#142 of 1104)

Did Dumbledore say this before or after the Sectumsempra incident? I think he could say Harry has never been seduced by the Dark Arts, even though he tried to Crucio Bellatrix, because at that point it was a solitary incident and it didn't even work.



Pinky Prime - Jun 18, 2006 9:29 am (#143 of 1104)
Edited Jun 18, 2006 10:31 am

Laura W - I was waiting for somone to bring up Dumbledore's statement to Harry. Yet, in HBP, chapter Horcruxes, Dumbledore says, "... and yet, Harry, despite your privileged insight into Voldemort's world ..., you have never been seduced by the Dark Arts,.." I whole-heartedly agree with your entire post!

I've gotten the impression from some of Jo's interviews that the Harry Potter Series must be seen through Harry's eyes but also through her own eyes. She uses Dumbldore to shape and mold quality forged characteristics in Harry as seen from an outside source. With that being said, Harry is being empowered to fight the evil that resides in him due to Voldemort's (presence) inside his body. Dumbldore also says in GoF "We all may soon face the choice between what is right and what is easy". "Easy", may be the unforgivables (Dark Side), and "right" may be the love that resides in him.

Does it say in OOtP that Harry was being possessed by LV directly when he wanted to strike at Dumbldore in his office. No I don't think so, it does only say later that Voldemort attempted to use the reverse effect of their connection to see and possibly act through Harry's eyes. Harry has been fighting the evil all along and is using other methods to combat it. He may very well be the key to DADA for the whole WW. Finding the strength inside of him to conquer his own evils may teach him how to take down his enemies.

How does Harry do so well against a powerful spell like the Imperiatus Curse and do so poorly against the weaker Legillemence. spell?

How can Harry be ineffective against the Crutiatus curse and be the only survivor of the Avada Kadabra?

Hope Jo can sum this up for me.




Detail Seeker - Jun 18, 2006 11:41 am (#144 of 1104)

At least the different effects of the Legilimens and the Imperius on Harry can be explained. Both are propably some sort of hypnosis. The Imperius works on the consciousness of a person - so there is something to fight against in the spur of the moment - something harry cn do. The Legilimens does not give you something to fight against at first - you see your own memories come up and you have to become aware of the fact, that somebody else sees this, too to start having something to fight against.

Harry was able to reject Snape after some time, not at once. Snpae always had seen to it, that harry was vulnerable to his attacks at the start of the lessons, to show Harry, how vulnerable he was, as I guess, because he correctly assessed, that Harry did have his problems in keeping his emotions in check. But keeping them in check seems to be a prerequisite of Occlumency, while it is not necessary in fighting the Imperius.

The Cruciatus seems to work directly onto the muscles and there is no direct fighting it, as soon as it has come through to your body. You can either shield yourself or endure it. Harry survived the AK not by himself, but by the help of his already dead mother..



Weeny Owl - Jun 18, 2006 11:54 am (#145 of 1104)

Harry using Sectumsempra without knowing what it did wasn't too bright, but at the same time, Harry is just sixteen years old, and at the time he was engaged in a duel and used the first thing that came to mind. He wouldn't have known beforehand that what he was using was a Dark Arts spell.

I don't see Harry as becoming involved in dark magic mainly because when he has tried Unforgivable Curses, it's always been in a very emotional and heated moment. That isn't an excuse, of course, but how he reacts after seeing people die isn't how he reacts in everyday life.

He will have to control his emotions and hate if he is to use love to defeat Voldemort, but what I get from what JKR is doing with him is that even if people do things they shouldn't in the heat of deep emotional pain, that doesn't really change what they are inside, and Harry is a good person.



wynnleaf - Jun 18, 2006 3:15 pm (#146 of 1104)
Edited Jun 18, 2006 4:17 pm

Weeny Owl said: Harry using Sectumsempra without knowing what it did wasn't too bright, but at the same time, Harry is just sixteen years old, and at the time he was engaged in a duel and used the first thing that came to mind. He wouldn't have known beforehand that what he was using was a Dark Arts spell.

While he didn't know sectumsempra was a Dark curse when he first used it, he was well aware of it the next two times he used it. And he knew that cruciatus was unforgiveable each time he used it, as well as when he took such pleasure in imagining Snape under its effects. The problem to me is that members of the DA have also fought DE's, and none of the others used Dark curses against them. Only Harry. Harry seems to move very quickly to the dark curses, I think because his hatred is so great. Why send a cruciatus to Bella or Snape? Simply because he wants to see them in pain, even beyond his desire to stop them. That's a problem with Harry. His hate is growing (JKR has said this), and I think she will address that in book 7. Growing hatred is something that pushes people toward the dark side. So I'd say that Harry could lean that way if he allowed his hatred to continue to grow. JKR several times in HBP pointed out that Harry was feeding his hatred of Snape. Aside from the Harry/Snape enmity, it's worth noticing that Harry is not being self-aware of the destructive aspects of feeding one's hatred.

He will have to control his emotions and hate if he is to use love to defeat Voldemort, but what I get from what JKR is doing with him is that even if people do things they shouldn't in the heat of deep emotional pain, that doesn't really change what they are inside, and Harry is a good person.

I would hope that Harry would not view himself as good almost by default -- "I hate the bad guys, therefore I'm good." In fact, I see it as a problem within all of the books. I get a feeling of "if you're a good person, you don't have to worry about doing bad things, or being cruel, because you're not going to turn bad. You won't turn bad, because basically you're good." That's a dangerous notion, because it encourages a person to stop looking at the personal danger of feeding one's own anger, desiring to hurt others, etc.

I see it in the HP books where HRH and the twins (mostly those five), do a lot of very questionable and sometimes downright wrong or cruel things, and never, ever seem to give the rightness or wrongness of those actions a second thought. The greater difficulty I have with that is that we, the readers, are not encouraged to notice it either.

For instance, Fred and George make many students ill, steal supplies, lie quite often, and ultimately hurt Montague and neither the characters, or we the readers, are ever shown that Fred and George do anything other than entertain us and make us laugh. We are encouraged to laugh at the trouble they cause others. For the most part, I go along with this as I read the books. But when it came to what they did to Montague, and we were still never shown that anything could possibly be wrong with it (I assume, because the twins are fun and good Gryffindors), well, I started to get concerned.

Ditto Hermione. She worries about the rules. But ultimately she often breaks them. Okay, I can deal with that. She constantly helps other students, even to a degree that could be considered cheating. Alright, maybe we can partly justify it. But in OOTP, she uses a spell to catch whoever might snitch on the DA, but it turns out it's a really cruel spell. Does Marietta Edgecombe really deserve to have SNEAK written on her face permanently?? Why does JKR want to tell us about the permanent nature of the spell in HBP? For what reason does she want us to know that Hermione's punishment toward the sneak was permanent? Was it okay for Hermione to do this and does it mean nothing about her goodness that she has absolutely no remorse for what happened to Marietta?

There's actually lots of examples of this kind of thing. I am hopeful that in Book 7 there will be some way in which characters learn that the measure of good vs evil is not solely whether one went off and became a DE. And that being on the "good" side doesn't let one off from ever considering the questionable nature of one's own deeds or thoughts. But so far, I don't really see that occurring in the books.

I mentioned Umbridge earlier. I think (not sure) that JKR has said she's not a DE. But many readers assume she must be on LV's side, simply because she's so evil. But even in the WW, the test for evil shouldn't be whether or not the person joined up with LV, but whether or not the person pursues evil. In that regard, it is clearly possible for a person to never want to follow LV, and yet still be following a course toward darkness.

I am hopeful that JKR will use Harry to eventually work toward this. Not that she'd spell it out quite like I did -- but I do hope she'll show us that evil is not nearly so simple and black and white as Harry and Co. seem to think it is.

Okay, rant over. Sorry.



Catherine - Jun 18, 2006 3:52 pm (#147 of 1104)
Edited Jun 18, 2006 4:54 pm

Does Marietta Edgecombe really deserve to have SNEAK written on her face permanently??

Well, it isn't permanent yet. The story isn't over. Magical contracts appear to be really harsh, alas earwax. Harry found out the hard way in GoF, even though he did not enter his own name. Many characters carry scars from their past; Marietta may prove no different.

The problem to me is that members of the DA have also fought DE's, and none of the others used Dark curses against them.

Do we know this? Lupin and Sirius seemed intent on killing Wormtail in PoA. How exactly were they going to perform this act?

Why does JKR need to spell out everything? She does show us the "iffy" side of the good guys. Fred and George incur the wrath of their parents and folks at Hogwarts. They, like Sirius and James, spend a good bit of time in detention. Harry and Hermione (along with Neville and Draco) lose 50 points each for their houses in SS. Someone does pay for the DA rule-breaking in OoP--Dumbledore accepts all the blame and the consequences.

Harry uses the Cruciatus curse in OoP, and even Bellatrix calls his response "righteous anger."

To say that someone who is in a fight, and who has seen something horrific could then not be tempted...well...I think that is what war is about. Harry saw the greatest wizard of the age die by Avada Kedavra after saying, "Severus, please." His instincts are not evil, even if the spell is, by calm reflection, wrong.

I think Harry's so-called "Dark Arts forays" are to make "real" the extremely intense emotions he feels. Plenty of children have said extremely hurtful things when they are upset--"I hate you" or "I wish you would die." I take Harry's dark spells the same way---something spewed at a really bad moment.



Choices - Jun 18, 2006 5:01 pm (#148 of 1104)

Excellent comments Catherine - I couldn't agree more. Harry's use of dark spells/curses makes me recall the old adage.....sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.



wynnleaf - Jun 18, 2006 5:25 pm (#149 of 1104)
Edited Jun 18, 2006 6:27 pm

So you guys don't think JKR is trying to do anything more with Harry's use of unforgiveables than tell us that it's understandable in certain circumstances?

I thought when she had Harry learn about Crouch Sr. okaying unforgiveables in the first war with LV, it was supposed to show us how the "good" guys had resorted to the methods of the bad guys. I thought she was showing us just how far Crouch was willing to go -- and it didn't look good.

When Snape says "no unforgiveables from you Potter," at the end of HBP, I thought that was another thing for us readers to sit up and take notice -- Harry's doing something that's not a good choice.

And I don't think JKR showed Marietta's curse still hanging on in Book 6 in order to show us Marietta's mistake was what she deserved. JKR had a reason for bringing up Marietta's still suffering from that curse. Maybe it was to show us how awful Marietta was -- but I don't think so.

And Montague. Take a look at where HRH find out that Montague isn't getting any better and his parents have finally come to get him and take him from Hogwarts. Hermione worries that they, the students, should perhaps tell his parents what really happened to him, so that it could help in his recovery.

Course not, he'll recover, said Ron indifferently. "Anyway, more trouble for Umbridge, isn't it?" said Harry in a satisfied voice.

Indifferent and satisfied.

Sure, I can understand Ron and Harry feeling this way. But at what point in these books do they grow to a point to see that there's a problem with this way of thinking?

It's one thing to have these thoughts. It's another to never re-think these thoughts. It's one thing to use a Dark spell. It's another to use it again and again without remorse.

Oh, and Lupin and Sirius aren't in the DA. I had said that no other members of the DA use unforgiveables. We aren't shown anyone else other than Harry using them. Also, I was under the impression -- perhaps completely wrongly -- that the Order, in the first war with LV, was not into using unforgiveables like Crouch Sr. had authorized for aurors.



Solitaire - Jun 18, 2006 5:32 pm (#150 of 1104)

Harry seems to move very quickly to the dark curses, I think because his hatred is so great.

Perhaps Harry feels the danger is more real for him ... that his life is truly at stake. Hm ... how odd. I can't imagine why he would feel this way!

Harry Potter - Page 3 2134391180

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Mona
Mona
Hufflepuff Prefect
Hufflepuff Prefect

Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Harry Potter - Page 3 Empty Re: Harry Potter

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 3 of 4 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum