Mediwitch - Jul 11, 2007 5:36 pm (#2451 of 2970)
I think he was given a six-month sentence, zelmia, so presumably he's been released but I don't think we've heard from him again.
Paul Potter - Jul 14, 2007 1:07 pm (#2452 of 2970)
In the HBP Chapter Lightning Struck tower when talking to Malfoy DD say "Well, I certainly did have a drink ... and I came back ... after a fashion" Is DD saying that he had a drink after a fashion, or that he came back after a fashion.
If he came back after a fashion what does that mean did he not really come back? Just thought I would ask as it might mean something.
zelmia - Jul 14, 2007 2:03 pm (#2453 of 2970)
Good question. I have always thought he was sort of referring to both, Paul. He has a drink of the potion to get the locket; and then he comes back through side-along apparition with Harry and Rosmerta's brooms.
In other words, Dumbledore's not exactly lying here. But what kind of drink and "coming back" he did were not at all what one would imagine.
Choices - Jul 14, 2007 5:20 pm (#2454 of 2970)
He says he "certainly" did have a drink, and that is the truth. He drank 12 goblets of the green potion. And he says he came back "after a fashion". That is also true. I think he means he came back a changed man - not nearly the person he was before he left, weaker, nearer death, physically diminished. He left as one in charge, the leader, and he came back dependent on someone else for support.
painting sheila - Jul 14, 2007 8:20 pm (#2455 of 2970)
Not to take away from the above discussion but in HBP when the Prime Minister is discussing his under secretary with MoM - they talk alot about the Imperius curse going bad - since so much emphasis is placed on that particular situation do you think it is warming us up for it happening again? Or do you think it is letting us in on another reason the Longbottoms are the way they are? If they were Imperiused and Crusiatused .. . .?
TheSaint - Jul 15, 2007 2:44 am (#2456 of 2970)
Sheila - Not to take away from the above discussion but in HBP when the Prime Minister is discussing his under secretary with MoM - they talk alot about the Imperius curse going bad...
I have been wondering about this myself. My first thought was that this is the person Malfoy practiced the Imperius on, the one he later used on Rosmerta. Then I had to wonder how he had access to this young man. I don't think the Malfoy's would live in a rich muggle neighborhood, so I ruled out someone he just came across. Then I had to wonder if Sr. Malfoy was accessing the muggle ministry the same was he accessed the magical ministry. Was he walking around in a suit and a pocketful of pounds? Could Draco have gone with him and used that time of utter boredom to practice his wares?
The first chapter of HBP, that has been written for so long, made me wonder if the war would be spilling over to the muggle world in a big way. Scrigemore has placed Kingsley with the muggle minister for protection. I wonder what from?
Could they be searching records for Harry's muggle relatives to find out where he is?
zelmia - Jul 15, 2007 9:08 am (#2457 of 2970)
Well Lucius was in Azkaban so could not have had much to do with that particular incident. Also the Malfoys live in Wiltshire (GF), which is mostly rural, but we don't know what town they live in. And they live in a mansion (GF).
The Muggle PM would need protection as a matter of course. After all, look at what's been happening with bridges being destroyed, Dementors breeding, Giants attacking villages, etc.
MickeyCee3948 - Jul 15, 2007 9:23 am (#2458 of 2970)
"Dementors breeding"? I MUST have missed something.
legolas returns - Jul 15, 2007 9:29 am (#2459 of 2970)
Yes Mickey that was what the mist was caused by. Harry associated the mist with the feelings of dementors without being told what that was.
It reminds me of home *Happy feeling*.
painting sheila - Jul 15, 2007 2:16 pm (#2460 of 2970)
Doesn't Fudge say that the Dementors are breeding when he is speaking with the PM?
I have always thought that muggles would be in the war with LV - don't ask me why.
Any Death Eater could have gotten to the Under Secretary = or could they have? Is it like trying to see the President of the US? I don't think your average person could walk up and get that close to him. Do you think they have had spy placed in the government all along?
zelmia - Jul 15, 2007 4:59 pm (#2461 of 2970)
Well how close do you have to be to "Imperio" someone? I don't think there is anything to indicate that one has to be right up against someone for that spell to be effective. Remember, even Draco was able to keep Rosemerta under the Imperius Curse from Hogwarts.
legolas returns - Jul 15, 2007 11:17 pm (#2462 of 2970)
I think its more the ability of someone to fight against the curse. Mr Couch new that there was something very wrong going on and he had a very forcefull personality. Admittedly people who cant fight the curse have been known to do dreadful things. If you told someone to carry out there job but tell them to let you knoe when someone comes by because you need to talk to them/concerned about there safety I dont think many people would fight that.
Allison R - Jul 17, 2007 11:32 am (#2463 of 2970)
Okay, here's one that my 11 year-old just stumped me on. She's re-reading book 6 in preparation for 7 coming out (that's my girl!) and just came across the following in Half Blood Prince
"Oh, and I almost forgot", Fudge had added. "We're importing three foriegn dragons and a sphinx for the TriWizard tournament..." (HBP US pg. 9)
What was the Sphinx for??
Catherine - Jul 17, 2007 11:37 am (#2464 of 2970)
That conversation happened prior to the Tri-Wizard tournament.
The Sphinx was one of the obstacles in GoF during the third task.
Nathan Zimmermann - Jul 17, 2007 11:38 am (#2465 of 2970)
The Sphinix was used in the Third task.
Allison R - Jul 17, 2007 11:38 am (#2466 of 2970)
ah, of course! Thank you, Catherine and Nathan!
T Vrana - Jul 18, 2007 4:49 am (#2467 of 2970)
Maybe this has already been discussed, by why does Hermione, who did not grow up in the WW knowing the fear and terror spread by Voldemort, have trouble saying his name? Seems out of character and out of place.
Hagsquid - Jul 18, 2007 6:38 am (#2468 of 2970)
She reads... a lot.
I'm guessing (as we have no canon evidence on the matter) that she either read that it's a taboo, or she had questions about Voldemort, and was shunned like mad every time she tried to ask them.
I'm reminded of a story with monkeys and bananas and a water hose.
T Vrana - Jul 18, 2007 9:01 am (#2469 of 2970)
I realize she reads alot, but it seems to me that the inability to utter his name, the jumping and squealing or shrieking at the sound of his name etc. is something that would develop from knowing what it was like during his first reign from living it, or from hearing the stories from a young age. Just seems very un-Hermione like for her to be so queasy about saying his name or hearing it, based solely on what she has read. As for asking questions, she also reacts when Harry says it, she doesn't just avoid it herself.
Choices - Jul 18, 2007 9:28 am (#2470 of 2970)
Maybe she is just desperate to fit in with everybody else. ???
Soul Mate for Sirius - Jul 18, 2007 12:02 pm (#2471 of 2970)
I always took it as her being afraid easily. Don't get me wrong, Hermione is very brave, but but she's also very moral and I always felt that in some way, even though she wasn't brought up in the wizarding world, after reading and hearing all about LV, she was sickened at the thought of him, and thus developed the same fear as everyone else. It's hard to put it into words, but I feel like she almost fears the idea of his actions more then the man himself, and his name was always a tangible form of that abstract idea she feared. Like, she can't believe, (since she is so moral and so set on equal rights, especially being Muggle-born herself) that anyone could be so evil.
S.E. Jones - Jul 20, 2007 12:51 am (#2472 of 2970)
Paul Potter --In the HBP Chapter Lightning Struck tower when talking to Malfoy DD say "Well, I certainly did have a drink ... and I came back ... after a fashion" Is DD saying that he had a drink after a fashion, or that he came back after a fashion.--
I think the "after a fashion" is simply a reference to the timing. Draco thought he was just going into Hogsmeade for a quick drink and then would be heading back, instead he and Harry took the whole trip to the seashore cave and were gone for hours. He did have a drink and come back but after hours of being gone so he returned "after a fashion"....
T Vrana --Maybe this has already been discussed, by why does Hermione, who did not grow up in the WW knowing the fear and terror spread by Voldemort, have trouble saying his name? Seems out of character and out of place.--
I don't think it's out of character. We almost saw the same thing happening to Harry. At the end of PS, he says to Dd, "... even if the Stone's gone, Vol-, I mean, You-Know-Who--" but Dd stops him and says, "Call him Voldemort, Harry. Always use the proper name for things. Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself." Harry had Dd to correct him and put him back on the right track but what if he hadn't? I think it's quite possible that Harry would've continued to use "You-Know-Who" and watching people jump at the sound until he too started jumping at it too. That's what probably happened with Hermione. Like Harry, she started out saying the name because she didn't know she shouldn't and was immediately shushed, so she started saying "You-Know-Who" and eventually started jumping along with everyone else..... JM2K
Anna L. Black - Jul 20, 2007 1:22 am (#2473 of 2970)
Until she returned to saying Voldemort, that is
Madame Pomfrey - Jul 20, 2007 12:45 pm (#2474 of 2970)
On the Snape thread Wynnleaf wrote: Dudley's gang includes the friend Piers Polkiss who is described as a little "rat-faced" boy. Piers is another form of the name "Peter."
This made me remember something odd about Piers that has been bugging me. In S.S. Piers tells the Dursleys that Harry was talking to the snake.How would a muggle know that the hissing,clicking, whatever, is associated with talking to a snake? Do you know what I mean? Wizarding kids know that it is Parceltongue even if they don't know what is being said. How would a muggle kid know that he was talking to the snake and not just making noises?
zelmia - Jul 20, 2007 12:57 pm (#2475 of 2970)
Good question, Mme Pomfrey. Personally, I always imagined that Harry was speaking regular English to the snake and that it was only when the snake talked back to Harry that he recognised that he could understand it.
But then after CS, everyone seemed to know that Harry was "talking to" the snake, even though Harry himself didn't seem to. I think that even if Harry was only observed to be hissing in the snake's general direction, given what even the Dursley's know of Harry's background, and given what happened next, I think even Dudley would be able to make some sort of connection that "Harry was talking to it".
S.E. Jones - Jul 20, 2007 1:56 pm (#2476 of 2970)
Well, he was looking at the snake and hissing... I'd even call that "talking to a snake" even if I didn't know anything about Parseltongue. I mean, if I look at my cat and start meowing, you'd say I was talking to my cat even though you'd have no idea what I was saying, right? (Admittedly, I wouldn't know what I was saying either, nor would my kitty. My catinese is just atrocious! )
Mrs Figg - Jul 23, 2007 6:25 am (#2477 of 2970)
I was wondering if any of the Hogwart's staff are married? Additionally, if yes then where do their families stay... if they have a separate residence away from Hogwarts they would see them only on Holidays. In the same line of thinking do the staff have bedchambers attached to their office...or where do they sleep in the castle?
My apologies if this has been covered previously there are just too many threads to peruse. Thanks for any input.
The giant squid - Jul 23, 2007 7:50 am (#2478 of 2970)
Mrs Figg, this was brought up before, to JK herself even. The response was that we'd find out more about it in book 7. Clearly that's a plot point that didn't make it through the final edit.
Mrs Figg - Jul 23, 2007 12:20 pm (#2479 of 2970)
Thanks Mike! I guess I will just never know for sure, thus opening the door for my own speculation. Perhaps McGonagall transforms into the tabby cat and has a nice little cat bed in the Transfiguration room. It would be good fun if JKR would write a book answering all the miscellaneous questions, now that book 7 is done, or perhaps she could just publish "Hogwarts a History" it never seemed to fail Hermione.
Choices - Jul 23, 2007 4:54 pm (#2480 of 2970)
I still want to know who does magic (who hasn't done it before) at an advanced age in a drastic situation. Was it there and I just missed it?
Madame Pomfrey - Jul 23, 2007 9:44 pm (#2481 of 2970)
I didn't notice anything,Choices.My problem is that I read so fast I know I missed alot,so now I'm reading at a slower pace so I can pick up on things I missed."magic late in life" is one of the things I intend to look for during this read.
Allison R - Jul 24, 2007 8:17 am (#2482 of 2970)
Edited by Kip Carter Jul 24, 2007 10:08 am
Has anyone figured out what scene the US cover is referring to in the book? I've read the book twice now and I still can't place that scene...
I do hope that no one attempts to answer Allison's question on this thread because you provide could easily be a "SPOILER".
Allison, I started to move your post to one of the "Spoiler" Folders, but I did not apparently make the move quick enough.
ADDED EDIT: Disregard the above comments. I have just changed the status of this thread to "Spoiler-infected."
I do asked for each of you to consider that there are many who come to our Forums who have not even got the Book Seven yet, much less finished reading it. If a thread does not show that it contains "Spoiler", please don't post one!
This was my third edit on this post in the last 13 minutes. - Kip
Mediwitch - Jul 24, 2007 8:24 am (#2483 of 2970)
Allison, I think Harry is reaching up for the elder wand after he Disarms Voldemort - just as Voldemort finally snuffs it. I assume Mary Grand Pre didn't show Harry holding his wand, because to show that without Voldemort holding his own wand would have been something of a spoiler.
Allison R - Jul 24, 2007 8:43 am (#2484 of 2970)
Kip, please accept my apologies! I had just come from the "Spoiler" discussions and hit this one next and didn't realize that "check messages" had brought me out of the spoiler zone. Many apologies!
::off to iron my hands now::
Prefect Marcus - Jul 24, 2007 12:49 pm (#2485 of 2970)
When Narcissa declared Harry dead, it was a bald-face lie, yet Voldemort did not detect it.
He "always" knows. Well, he didn't know this one, even though Cissy had his undivided attention at the time.
Madame Pomfrey - Jul 24, 2007 1:04 pm (#2486 of 2970)
I didn't know where else to put this that isn't spoiler free. I had always figured Umbridge to be a DE even after Sirius said that the world isn't divided between good people and DE.Her quill I thought was dark magic,she attempted to have Harry killed by dementors and later wanted to crucio Harry,not to mention,her main priority of keeping Voldemort's return a secret.Notice,how she didn't flinch at the mention of his name in OOP.She continued on with the ministry with no retributions for what she did to Harry because the one person that I thought would investigate,Madame Bones,was murdered.Except for her attendance at Dumbledores funeral,she pretty much remained in the background in HBP.Now,in DH we find out her family name was Selwyn,which I remembered to be the name of a DE chasing Harry along side Voldemort in The Seven Potters and she also had Moody's eye in her door.His body was never found,so I think the DE must have got him.While she may not be a DE,I think this proves she is at least in deep with them.How else would she get the eye,but through a DE,her family member maybe.Selwyn was there.
I still think it a possibility that Madame Bones was killed by someone within the ministry,maybe Dolores herself,if Madame Bones was investigating the dementor attact like Dumbledore suggested.
The giant squid - Jul 24, 2007 3:23 pm (#2487 of 2970)
I still don't think Dolores was a DE, she's just evil. The "Selwyn" bit was to explain away the S on the locket and try to make herself look more important (her typical M.O.).
Then again, I still don't have a good explanation as to how she got a hold of Moody's eye...
Loopy Lupin - Jul 25, 2007 5:46 am (#2488 of 2970)
Well, at that point, there wasn't much difference between Death Eaters and the Ministry. So, perhaps someone brought the eye to her as a present to curry favor. As evil as she was in OoP, she was ultimately loyal to the Ministry & Fudge who were ostensibly opposed to Death Eaters. She also debated with herself about whether to use the cruciatus curse on Harry. A Death Eater wouldn't have debated. You didn't have to be a full blown Death Eater in order to hold prejudices regarding blood purity.
Soul Mate for Sirius - Jul 25, 2007 7:10 am (#2489 of 2970)
I agree with Loopy. Just because she was still at the ministry once the DE's took over doesn't mean she was one of them. Remember we saw Arthur and Percy there that day, and we know neither of them are DE's. I think that while she didn't neccessarily support LV as a DE, she definetly believed in his ideas of blood-purity and his predjudice against half-bloods and muggle-borns, so she was happy to stay at the minisrty to run those Muggle-born trials. She probably is related to the Selwyn family, but just because she is doesn't automatically make her a DE. Look at Tonk's mother and Sirius, who were both part of the Black family but no DE's.
Esther Rose - Jul 25, 2007 7:20 am (#2490 of 2970)
Well, Mundungus has pretty sticky fingers and very little scruples. My guess is that Mundungus returned to the place where Moody was murdered and took the eyeball. The eyeball then could have been purchased from Umbridge when she stole the locket. This is even less than a guess, and more of an ungrounded speculation.
Choices - Jul 25, 2007 7:47 am (#2491 of 2970)
Selwyn was the name of one of the DE's with Voldemort when they attacked the seven Harrys. Then in the court scene with Hermione as Mafalda, Umbridge says she is related to the Selwyns. Since Moody was killed in that first attack, maybe the DE Selwyn found Moody's body, removed the eye to prove that Moody was dead, and gave it to Umbridge as a "keepsake".
Die Zimtzicke - Jul 25, 2007 8:24 am (#2492 of 2970)
Why didn't Harry have to take Polyjuice more than once at the wedding. It's only supposed to last an hour. They never showed anyone redosing themselves. And I don't understand why polyjuice won't work on Hagrid because he's part giant, but it will work on Fleur who is part-veela. I don't see why having relatives who can turn into hacked off scary birds is better than being part giant.
And I thought it was odd that JO said Ginny was powerful, but didn't give hre anythignpwoerful to do in the book.
And I want to know why we didn't get to see what happened to more of the survivors. I thought the epilogue stunk because it was so limited in scope. At least we could have seen who Draco married!
mollis - Jul 25, 2007 10:07 am (#2493 of 2970)
My take on Umbridge and locket was quite different. I suspect that she may be muggle-born or without definitive wizard parentage. As we know, the locket had a snake on the front of it shaped like an "S", representing Slytherin. The locket is obviously old. When she took it from Dung and claimed it was a family heirloom I think she was trying to disguise herself. She picked simply picked pure-blood name that began with S and clung to it in the hopes that no one would discover that she wasn't the pure-blood she was pretending to be. Even Voldemort himself was persecuting his equals (as far as blood status goes, anyway).
Allison R - Jul 25, 2007 10:23 am (#2494 of 2970)
Die-- on the polyjuice potion: I don't know, but perhaps it has to do with the amount of polyjuice potion he ingested-- the more you take, the longer it lasts? HRH only took a gulp in CoS, and in DH they worry about their ability to infiltrate the Ministry because they only have a small amount left. For the wedding, for example, it says that Harry had taken "a large dose of Polyjuice Potion" (DH US pg 137). I took this to mean that he had taken a larger amount so that he could maintain the disguise for a longer period of time.
Morlicar - Jul 25, 2007 10:55 am (#2495 of 2970)
With regard to polyjuice potion and Hagrid: I think Lupin was saying that noone could take on Hagrid's features using the potion because he wasn't human enough -- it would be like the cat incident in Chamber of Secrets. Whether Hagrid could use the potion is another question. Fleur, the only other part human involved, has a Veela grandparent, so is more human than Hagrid and someone might be able to take on her visage.
zelmia - Jul 25, 2007 4:40 pm (#2496 of 2970)
And Fleur is certainly human in the form and function of her body. Therefore it seems reasonable that she should be able to use the Polyjuice Postion. Whereas Hagrid most certainly is not.
mollis - Jul 25, 2007 6:23 pm (#2497 of 2970)
I figured that polyjuice potion would not work on Hagrid if he took it in the same way that many spells just bounced off of him when he was attacked. Giants seem to be immune to most wizard magic. I think that it is because of this that he could not take the potion.
I don't know that we are ever told, but I wouldn't think that Veelas would have the same resistance to spells. If they did, Fluer would have ad a distinct advantage in the Triwizard Tournament. And you know Karkarov would have fussed about it.
Loopy Lupin - Jul 27, 2007 9:11 am (#2498 of 2970)
He "always" knows. Well, he didn't know this one, even though Cissy had his undivided attention at the time. -- Prefect Marcus
Maybe Cissy was a great occlumens and we just never knew. But, more likely, I call "Mother's Magic" on this one. Nearly everytime LV crosses a mother trying to protect her son, his magic doesn't work.
Esther Rose - Jul 27, 2007 10:10 am (#2499 of 2970)
Ah yes, but people will believe what they want to believe. Voldemort so badly wants Harry to be dead that when he is given the affirmative that Harry is dead he believes it without question.
Catherine - Jul 27, 2007 12:00 pm (#2500 of 2970)
Great observations about moms and children, Loopy, and I quite agree.
About Narcissa, I think she had done a good job of keeping her head down and playing along when Voldemort took over her house, and I don't think that Voldemort ever saw her as a threat.
Narcissa had taken great risks before when it came to protecting her son. She went to Spinner's End in HbP and risked speaking about Voldemort's plan--even standing up to her crazy and powerful older sister to do so. I saw her lie to Voldemort as another great gamble. Again, Voldemort does not understand the power of mother love, so maybe this helped her.
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Die Zimtzicke - Jul 27, 2007 7:17 pm (#2501 of 2970)
One thing I thought was odd was I never personally saw anything that fit Jo's description of something she saw in the PoA film that gave her chills because it looked like foreshadowing. What was it?
zelmia - Jul 27, 2007 7:50 pm (#2502 of 2970)
Personally, I have always thought it was the way Ron and Hermione interacted. But who knows....
Marie E. - Jul 28, 2007 5:13 am (#2503 of 2970)
After the battle at Hogwarts, it says Colin Creevey was "tiny in death". In DH Colin is a sixth year, and probably 16 years old, so just how small is this guy? It just seems she kept over-emphasizing the stature of the Creevey boys.
Prefect Marcus - Jul 28, 2007 6:37 am (#2504 of 2970)
Loopy Lupin:"I call "Mother's Magic" on this one. Nearly everytime LV crosses a mother trying to protect her son, his magic doesn't work.
Very astute of you, Loopy. I think you are correct.
Ester Rose:"Ah yes, but people will believe what they want to believe." True, so true. That had to play a part.
Prefect Marcus - Jul 28, 2007 6:40 am (#2505 of 2970)
Die Zimtzicke: "One thing I thought was odd was I never personally saw anything that fit Jo's description of something she saw in the PoA film that gave her chills because it looked like foreshadowing. What was it?"
I suspect it was what Lupin told him about his mother. We really had not gotten to know Lily very well up to that point in the series. It wasn't until HP when we learn anything really concrete about her.
Catherine - Jul 28, 2007 7:16 am (#2506 of 2970)
I've been reflecting on the PoA film and Jo's foreshadowing chills.
I agree that Lupin's comments about Lily fit.
Snape's bodily protection of his students may also fit.
I also think the "off the Astronomy tower and see how you look" comment could be it.
Jenniffler - Jul 28, 2007 5:38 pm (#2507 of 2970)
I thought it was odd that Kendra Dumbledore was described as looking like a Native American. I was torn between a yell of the delight that she might indeed be a Native American and a shocked sense of bewilderment: Who looks like a picture of a Native American except a Native American. Which tribe? Is this supposed to tell us something about her character? I'm lost.
Luna Logic - Jul 29, 2007 9:55 am (#2508 of 2970)
Edited by Jul 29, 2007 10:56 am
I feel exactly the same, Jennifler. I was waiting and waiting, and with the final scene with Aberforth in the Hog's Head... nothing !
Loopy Lupin - Jul 30, 2007 4:43 am (#2509 of 2970)
One thing I thought was odd was I never personally saw anything that fit Jo's description of something she saw in the PoA film that gave her chills because it looked like foreshadowing.-- Die Zimtzicke
When she said that she was in the midst of writing HBP. (POA came out in June 2004 and HBP came out the following summer.) I concluded she was talking about how Buckbeak saved Harry and Hermione from Werewolf Lupin in the POA movie. The scene was pretty much the same as Buckbeak "saving" Harry from Snape at the end of HBP, at least in the manner that Buckbeak did the saving. I'm not sure if JKR used the word "foreshadowing" and, even if she did, I'm not sure that's necessarily the right word. I think her comments were more along the lines of thinking that readers would assume she threw in the HBP Buckbeak scene as a result of seeing the same thing in the movie.
mollis - Jul 30, 2007 1:42 pm (#2510 of 2970)
I thought the exact same thing as you, Loopy.
BTW- Something that has been bothering me that I haven't seen addressed elsewhere. Why didn't Snape tell Voldy about #12GP? He was a secret keeper just like everyone else. Why didn't he give away the location? Hermione was able to give away the secret (by accident) so surely Snape could have as well. There was nothing there and no one was using it. Why not give that little snippet of information to Voldy to further cement his role as spy? The DE's kept asking for the location.
megfox* - Jul 30, 2007 4:48 pm (#2511 of 2970)
I thought of the same thing, mollis, but maybe Snape was worried that Harry would try to go and stay there - after all, they did end up there for a while. Even after the trio left, he couldn't be sure that someone from the Order wouldn't go there looking for them or something. I think that he was probably giving just enough right information to make it look like he was giving all the information that he could.
Mrs. Sirius - Jul 30, 2007 9:41 pm (#2512 of 2970)
If Snape walked into 12GP, he was instantly met by those two charms (jinxes?), one which ties his tongue. I think it very possible that that jinx would probably also prevent him from uttering the name or any information about the place.
(The leap that that jinx would apply to Snape even if he weren't to step into 12GP is not unreasonable in my mind. It seems to me that just as Harry became the master of the Elder wand by defeating Malfoy when he was using his "every day" wand, then a jinx against Snape at adifferent location would have the same "science" apply.)
Loopy Lupin - Jul 31, 2007 4:54 am (#2513 of 2970)
I suppose Snaped didn't tell LV the location because he, Snape, was actually one of the good guys. LV's Legilimancy was obviously no match for Snape's Occlumency, so I suppose he told LV some believable lie. Or maybe the "tongue-tied" thing prevented him from telling even if he wanted to.
Puck - Jul 31, 2007 5:04 am (#2514 of 2970)
Or perhaps the DE just didn't know the rules. Perhaps they didn't know that Snape was free to say once DD was dead. Still, they must have known something, or else why would they stake out the house? Of course, Kreacher showing up with information about Sirius and Harry should have given Bella and Cissy a clue.
mollis - Jul 31, 2007 5:49 am (#2515 of 2970)
I did consider the tongue-tied curse as a possibility, but didn't see how it would apply from a distance. Maybe the DE's just don't understand the type of charms that were protecting the headquarters. Or maybe Snape simply told them that they had vacated the old place after DD's death. It could obviously be explained many ways, it just struck me as odd.
Puck - Jul 31, 2007 10:09 am (#2516 of 2970)
LV doesn't feel he needs to use concealment charms, so it wouldn't surprise me if he was unaware that he could now get into Headquarters. Plus, if he was close to taking over the Ministry and Hogwarts, who care about getting into that building? Snape might just have neglected to mention the change in the Secret's status, and no one thought to ask.
mollis - Jul 31, 2007 12:22 pm (#2517 of 2970)
And, maybe when Snape did his search of all the rooms he reported to Voldemort that nothing worthwhile remained at the headquarters.
I know its not a big deal, but it isn't very often that an inconsistency strikes me in the midst of a first-time reading. This was one of those few things that made me stop and wonder how that could have happened.
zelmia - Jul 31, 2007 8:14 pm (#2518 of 2970)
I think the "tongue-tied" curse only applied to Snape, which is why everyone else's tongue's instantly relaxed. Had it been Snape, his tongue would have stayed "tied" so he wouldn't have been able to talk full stop, even when he left 12GP.
But even though the Fidelius Charm is not in effect, 12GP had been protected by Sirius's dad with other Charms. Being made "unplottable" being one. Which is why Lupin, and later the Trio, begin Apparating to the top step of the stoop. Because it's within the "protection zone".
Luna Logic - Aug 1, 2007 1:17 am (#2519 of 2970)
The problem is that, on her chat, J Rowling said that Snape has visited Grimmauld Place - and taken the letter - before the curse.
Soul Search - Aug 1, 2007 6:00 am (#2520 of 2970)
I wondered why Snape included the scene with the letter in his memories for Harry. Snape must have considered it significant.
It occurs just after he has AK'd Dumbledore and knows he will be hated by most of the Wizarding World. Snape has ended his sixteen years as a spy.
Maybe it has a "I did it all for you" type of closure for Lily.
Luna Logic - Aug 1, 2007 9:43 am (#2521 of 2970)
I didn't think Snape had chosen his memories. I thought those were the most important memories for him. But ? I'm not sure at all.
Die Zimtzicke - Aug 1, 2007 10:25 am (#2522 of 2970)
Did we ever decide how Narcissa was able to hide it from Voldemort that Harry was still alive? He said he always knows if he's being lied to, and I still think if he'd ever been paying attention to what anyone said, he'd have been paying attention to that.
legolas returns - Aug 1, 2007 10:41 am (#2523 of 2970)
I dont think he cared Die. He would probably have been having such a power rush (e.g im invincible now) that he wouldnt have even bothered to check she was saying the truth. Apart from anything else he did not believe in love. So the fact that she lied because she wanted to see her son would not have occurred to him.
mollis - Aug 1, 2007 12:28 pm (#2524 of 2970)
So, Snape got into 12GP and stole the letter before Moody had a chance to put the additional protections in place. I can buy that. But WHY? Why did Snape go there? What was he looking for? And if all he found was an old letter from Lily, why share that memory with Harry? What is the significance of it?
legolas returns - Aug 1, 2007 12:37 pm (#2525 of 2970)
I think he may have gone to Grimauld place like Harry/Ron/Hermione. It was an available safe place he could go before planning what he was going to do next.
I dont know why Snape would go looking around hoping to find something from Lily. He had no way of knowing that there would be anything there. Sirius must have carried the letter with him while he was in prison because he had run away from home while he was a teenager.
Choices - Aug 1, 2007 5:18 pm (#2526 of 2970)
Die, I thought Narcissa avoided looking Voldemort in the eye when she told him that Harry was dead - that way he couldn't read her thoughts and she successfully lied to him. Hope I remembered that correctly - I haven't gotten that far in my reread.
zelmia - Aug 1, 2007 5:33 pm (#2527 of 2970)
Well, he was also kind of dazed himself after what happened. He may not have simply been thinking in those terms.
Choices - Aug 1, 2007 6:07 pm (#2528 of 2970)
You are right, Zelmia. I started to add that he was distracted and perhaps didn't pay very close attention to Narcissa. When I hit the "edit" button I got that darn error message and thought I wasn't going to get back in at all. Anyway, he heard that Harry was dead and that's all he cared about.
mollis - Aug 2, 2007 6:22 am (#2529 of 2970)
And what possible motivation would Cissy have for lying to Voldemort? He would never have considered that she would lie so that she could get to her son. I don't think Voldy even considered it possible. He was shaken and got the answer he was looking for. Case closed. (As far as he was concerned, anyway.)
megfox* - Aug 2, 2007 6:31 am (#2530 of 2970)
Yes, mollis, that is what I was thinking as well. Voldemort would have not reason to think that Narcissa would lie about Harry being dead. This is what all of the Death Eaters have wanted for a very long time. Even if Draco was dead, at least he didn't die in vain, because now Harry was dead too, and there was nothing to stop Voldemort anymore. Of course, Narcissa would be happy about this, and would have no reason to lie. Another careless mistake by Voldemort.
rambkowalczyk - Aug 2, 2007 2:54 pm (#2531 of 2970)
Did we ever decide how Narcissa was able to hide it from Voldemort that Harry was still alive? He said he always knows if he's being lied to, and I still think if he'd ever been paying attention to what anyone said, he'd have been paying attention to that. DZ
Harry made a sacrifice by dying like his mother did. As a result Voldemort couldn't harm anyone afterwards. That was why Neville wasn't seriously burned and why he could break free of the body bind curse. Maybe the protection gave Narcissa enough to do Occlumency.
legolas returns - Aug 2, 2007 3:06 pm (#2532 of 2970)
By the lack of expression on her face particularly when Voldemort was at the Malfoy manner I am sure that she could do occulemency. Snape went deadpan at one point when Voldemort said something that would have made him upset/angry just prior to being killed by the Snake. He just seemed to become masklike.
journeymom - Aug 4, 2007 3:42 pm (#2533 of 2970)
Well, Bellatrix taught Draco how to Occlude. Perhaps she taught Narcissa. Or Severus taught Narcissa. But there are four Slytherins who knew how to Occlude.
Puck - Aug 5, 2007 6:48 am (#2534 of 2970)
Okay, the trio goes to Grimwauld place, and are talking about LV. His name is said several times. So, why doesn't the Taboo kick in? Perhaps they would be able to get inside, due to the Fideleous Charm, but they should at least have seen a bunch of DE outside. (The taboo was already in effect, as that explains how they were found down Tottencourt Road.)
Prefect Marcus - Aug 5, 2007 8:15 am (#2535 of 2970)
I noticed that too, Puck. I suspect that the hiding charm is not affected by the jinx on Voldemort's name.
zelmia - Aug 5, 2007 9:06 am (#2536 of 2970)
Well, the Death Eaters did start hanging around outside in Grimmauld Place after the Trio had been there for a few days. The Trio attribute this to Snape having revealed the location of 12GP but it seems more likely that the Death Eaters began to appear because of the Taboo. Though, of course they couldn't come in to the house itself because of the other protections.
Puck - Aug 5, 2007 9:39 am (#2537 of 2970)
I must have been the Fideleous, because the other charms people were setting were broken the moment LV's name was mentioned.
TheSaint - Aug 6, 2007 10:49 pm (#2538 of 2970)
Puck - I must have been the Fideleous, because the other charms people were setting were broken the moment LV's name was mentioned.
I also wondered why Snape did not tell the DE about 12GP. I concluded that Volde and the DE had no idea who the Secret Keeper was. When DD died they had no idea that he was the Kepper and Snape could now tell them the location, and as Snape was working with Dumbledore, on his own penance, then he saw no reason to tell them. He did not want Volde to actually get Harry.
Soul Search - Aug 7, 2007 5:07 am (#2539 of 2970)
"Volde and the DE had no idea who the Secret Keeper was."
Good point. Part of the "secret" was who the secret keeper was. Makes sense.
Puck - Aug 7, 2007 9:27 am (#2540 of 2970)
Okay, when Snape tells LV that the "source they discussed" told Snape about the plan to move the Harry's which source was this? He obviously can't have told him about DD's portrait. Did he claim Mundungus as his source?
zelmia - Aug 7, 2007 11:14 am (#2541 of 2970)
I actually think it was Moody. Dumbledore would had to have told someone about his and Snape's plan for Snape to kill him; otherwise Snape would have been left hanging out there with the Death Eaters. Moody would have been in a good position to be that person since he was no longer working at the Ministry, but still had good contacts there (Kingsley); and Moody would have understood the situation, even if Dumbledore was rather cryptic in describing it.
Choices - Aug 7, 2007 11:37 am (#2542 of 2970)
I don't think Moody would have spit on Snape if he was on fire. He never trusted Snape and I think he felt Dumbledore was a fool to trust him. I can't see Moody giving Snape information that could possibly get Harry killed. I still think it was Mundungus who let the information slip.
Potteraholic - Aug 7, 2007 11:45 am (#2543 of 2970)
Choices: "I don't think Moody would have spit on Snape if he was on fire." This just made me laugh! I've never heard this saying before. Did you just make that up, Choices, or is that a popular saying where you're from?
zelmia - Aug 7, 2007 12:39 pm (#2544 of 2970)
No, it's an old saying, Potteraholic.
Well, you may be right, Choices. But Moody seemed to be in charge of that whole operation; and Dumbledore would had to have told someone. Kingsley maybe?
mollis - Aug 7, 2007 12:50 pm (#2545 of 2970)
I'm with you Choices. I think Snape got the information from Mundungus while he had him under the imperious. (That is how he planted the idea of polyjuice potion, right?)
Soul Search - Aug 7, 2007 4:07 pm (#2546 of 2970)
My read was Dumbledore told Snape when Harry would be moved and told Snape to plant the seven Potters idea in Mundungus's head.
The only motivation for Snape telling the date to Voldemort seems to be so Snape would be even more in Voldemort's favor and could ask for the Headmaster job, and thereby be at Hogwarts to protect students from the Carrows.
The seven Potters allowed Snape to tell Voldemort the date, yet keep the risk to Harry at a minimum.
zelmia - Aug 7, 2007 5:19 pm (#2547 of 2970)
How could Dumbledore have known the date? He was dead.
Puck - Aug 7, 2007 7:22 pm (#2548 of 2970)
I wondered that, too, Zelmia. I was Guessing the McGonagall may have mentioned it in her office while she was acting as Headmaster, and DD the portrait told Snape. I would say Phineas' portrait got the info from Headquarters, but the Order had stopped using #12.
Die Zimtzicke - Aug 7, 2007 7:33 pm (#2549 of 2970)
Did or did not, the rules for secret keeper change from one book to the next? (Or was it from Jo's site to the book?) Have we got a consensus? I was totally confused by the secret keeping thing.
journeymom - Aug 7, 2007 9:51 pm (#2550 of 2970)
But we shouldn't have to guess what happened based upon theories with no textual evidence to support it. We already know Snape suggested the 7 Potters to Dung. It's logical to think that Dung was Snape's source of information.
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Steve Newton - Aug 8, 2007 3:55 am (#2551 of 2970)
Die, I don think that the rules of the Secret Keeper changed in the books, they were just not hardly explained at all until DH. (At least I didn't find Flitwick's explanation helpful.) The rules were different in DH than in JKR's explanation in some question she answered. (Sorry, I can't remember where. Maybe her website.) Just another reason that I think that only the books can be canon.
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 8, 2007 3:55 am (#2552 of 2970)
I think we have an expanation of why Mungdungus was in the Order in the first place.
Snape was a double agent, and it wouldn't be expected by Voldemort that he would be given critical information at Order meetings when he reported. But Snape needed to be seen as useful, so the excuse that his spy role gave him access to a good source of information was needed. Mundungus filled that role. Over the years, Snape could bring Voldemort specific information and claim he got it from Mundungus. The whereabouts of Emmaline Vance was likely one such nugget. I don't know that Mundungus knew he was being used this way, and the information that got leaked was surely predetermined by Dumbledore. After Snape murdered Dumbledore and couldn't spy on the Order anymore, Voldemort still expected information because he still thought Snape could use his source.
Luna Logic - Aug 8, 2007 8:29 am (#2553 of 2970)
Very strategic and convincing, Mrs Brisbee. I buy it!
Choices - Aug 8, 2007 9:19 am (#2554 of 2970)
Dumbledore may be dead, but I speculate that his plan to vanquish Voldemort was carefully planned right up to the killing of Voldemort. He knew that Harry would have to leave the Dursleys before or by his 17th birthday and had probably planned Harry's "exit" with Order members.
Columbine Fairy - Aug 15, 2007 2:08 pm (#2555 of 2970)
If the sorting hat was Gryffindor's, why does DD describe the sword as his only known relic?
Btw Choices I agree with that theory. The Order would have addressed that problem ages before DD's death.
Allison R - Aug 15, 2007 2:24 pm (#2556 of 2970)
Columbine Fairy, I think the Sorting hat was originally Godric Gryffindor's, but all the Founders put something of themselves in it in order to make it the Sorting Hat for all 4 Houses. I'm pretty sure I read that in the Sorting Hat's Songs at the start of one of the years-- didn't I?
Choices - Aug 15, 2007 5:23 pm (#2557 of 2970)
You are correct, Allison. I think once the other founders put something of themselves into the Sorting hat, it was no longer solely Gryffindors.
So Sirius - Aug 19, 2007 1:40 pm (#2558 of 2970)
Godric's Hallow is one of the oldest, if not the oldest of Wizarding communities, as is Ottery St. Catchpole. Why then does Godric's hallow have a post office right in the center of their little town? Ron didn't know what a phone was nor how to properly send a letter. Yes, yes, we'll just decide on our own that Jo did that on purpose and that there were so many muggles there now that it warranted one. I find us covering for or explaining certain mistakes or inconsistencies quite amusing really.
Choices - Aug 19, 2007 2:01 pm (#2559 of 2970)
But, Godric's Hollow is not just a wizarding community. It is also a Muggle village, as is Ottery St. Catchpole. Hogsmeade is the only all wizarding village in Britain.
I don't think we are covering for JKR - we are stating facts. I have yet to find a "mistake" or "inconsistency" that can not be explained in a perfectly logical fashion. I do admit that I am not looking for mistakes. I admire JKR tremendously and have no reason to find fault with her writing or to try cast aspersions on her accomplishments. I think her work is amazing, far and away better than I could do. After all, she is the one sitting over there richer than the Queen because of her wonderful books.
The giant squid - Aug 19, 2007 4:29 pm (#2560 of 2970)
I'll admit I find it odd that with the number of muggle-born wizards out there that even the pure-bloods would be confused about things like postage, telephones & "proper" dress. If Hogsmeade is the only all-wizard village everyone would have to come in contact with muggles at some point. Sure, they could look at muggle ways as being "beneath" them, but they'd have to know about them.
It's one of those things that only make sense if you don't scratch the surface too deeply. You just accept that that's the way things are in Jo's world & move on.
Soul Search - Aug 19, 2007 7:48 pm (#2561 of 2970)
I read the incidental muggle references as humor. Descriptions like the way wizards dressed as muggles. Wizards had to have seen enough muggles to know they didn't wear one-piece bathing costumes to call on law breakers. I found most similar references amusing.
Die Zimtzicke - Aug 19, 2007 8:10 pm (#2562 of 2970)
The fact that some things are so unclear as to lead people to feel they are mistakes is important. Scratching the surface of Jo's world is just not typically the Potterverse way. I do think fans twist themselves into pretzels to cover for her ineptitude, at least in keeping her math and her details straight, and I don't see why.
poohnpiglettt - Aug 20, 2007 1:26 am (#2563 of 2970)
"I'll admit I find it odd that with the number of muggle-born wizards out there that even the pure-bloods would be confused about things like postage, telephones & "proper" dress."--The Giant Squid.
I found that odd too, originally. Especially the dressing part. But over time it became more reasonable to me. This is more evident the more I've been around different people whose cultures and/or backgrounds are very different from my own. For example, growing up I had a neighbor who was from India and the mom always wore saris. But if you sent me into a store and told me to buy a sari and put it on correctly, I'm sure I'd make horrible mistakes.
Choices - Aug 20, 2007 8:37 am (#2564 of 2970)
I find it odd that some people who are always trying to find fault with JKR even bother to read these books or come to this forum.
To change a word in an old saying....You can please all of the people some of the time. You can please some of the people all of the time, but you can not please all of the people all of the time.
Die Zimtzicke - Aug 20, 2007 9:02 am (#2565 of 2970)
So, if I find something in the books I do not understand and I want to discuss how incomprehensible to me, I should get off this forum? I am offended by that suggestion. The thread is for things that struck us as odd after all. Are we really supposed to not read any of the books anymore because we found something that struck us as odd?
There was no way this book was going to please everyone, and I'm pretty sure we all knew it. Why can't we discuss the parts that displeased us as well as the parts that did? And if not in this thread, then where, please, should we go?
Choices - Aug 20, 2007 9:11 am (#2566 of 2970)
Die Z - "I do think fans twist themselves into pretzels to cover for her ineptitude"
If you reread what I wrote, you will see that I never suggested that anyone leave this forum. I simply wondered why people who are so displeased with these books and think JKR is so "inept" a writer, would bother to read the books or want to come here to discuss them. If I thought that, I know I would not come here or waste my time reading the works of a writer I considered so flawed.
zelmia - Aug 20, 2007 9:22 am (#2567 of 2970)
I had a neighbor who was from India and the mom always wore saris. But if you sent me into a store and told me to buy a sari and put it on correctly, I'm sure I'd make horrible mistakes.
I think this is a great analogy, Piglett!
I don't think anyone here is "always trying to find fault with JKR". But there are definitely some inconsistencies in and elements to the world she has created that are confusing or just plain "odd". We think so, not because we are looking for faults, but because we are so fond of that world and want to know and understand it as fully as we can.
And yes, there are going to be parts of her world and/or her writing that we don't agree with or even like, and that's okay too. She has created a world so rich and steeped in tradition and history that there are bound to be details that "can not please all of the people all of the time".
Choices - Aug 20, 2007 9:31 am (#2568 of 2970)
I meant no offense to anyone - sorry. I was just curious and sometimes I type before I think - some things I should just ignore.
So Sirius - Aug 20, 2007 2:07 pm (#2569 of 2970)
Hmmmm As stated above, it'd be hard to believe anyone on this forum doesn't find the world of Harry Potter, intoxicating. At the same time, to suggest her books should be read without question, comment or anything but utter reverence, seems a bit well, let's just say odd, to me. There are many things that are inconsistent in the wonderful world she created. Sure, we can read her books and be forgiving, for the bigger picture, but as also stated above, isn't that what this forum is for, to discuss and should the discussion be just how utterly brilliant she is and perfect in every way? The books as a whole, are great. Marketing of them, even better. But, to suggest it's all simply perfection, is of course the prerogative of the reader, but to me, it's a bit obsessive.
If I may make another observation that I personally found odd... I find it odd that the kids are in hiding, being secretive, even under polyjuice potion, yet every thing they say is prefaced by using their names. I did forgive this as it's a book and suggests who they're referring to in the story and who's talking, etc. But, in reality, who among us calls whomever we're speaking to by their name each and every time we say anything to them and if we were in hiding, would we ever do it?
Choices - Aug 20, 2007 4:08 pm (#2570 of 2970)
So Sirius, check out page 272 of the Scholastic hardcover - Hermione casts multiple spells whenever they set up camp in the woods. One of them is "Muffliato" so that no one can hear them when they are speaking to each other.
Saying the names is, I believe, the authors way of letting readers know who is speaking, otherwise we might attribute something said to the wrong person.
zelmia - Aug 20, 2007 6:22 pm (#2571 of 2970)
Sometimes a person's name is said as a sort of interjection or for more emphasis. For example, "Harry, you need to break that connection!" "Hermione, you don't think we're being watched, do you?" "Ron, you don't have to complain about every little thing."
It's a sort of verbal mannerism to make sure the person is listening; to cue the person the speaker is addressing that "this is really important so I want to make sure you are paying attention".
So Sirius - Aug 20, 2007 8:47 pm (#2572 of 2970)
I did a re-read of the book and I must admit I actually liked it much better this time, but I was still, possibly even more so, disturbed by the amount of times their names were said and where and how. I appreciate the literary reasons for stating a name, as I said above, but there wasn't a time nor place that they weren't used. Ex: Hermione shouting Harry's name in the MoM (when he was using polyjuice) and in the graveyard, same thing, etc. Or even the times in the tent under the spells, what's the point of saying "Harry, do this" or "Ron, do that" they know who they're speaking to and who is speaking and we the reader, I assume, are perfectly capable of figuring it out. Why not just say, Hermione said or Harry said, after the statement, opposed to saying the name first? Eh, maybe it's just my issue, but I found it odd.
zelmia - Aug 20, 2007 8:58 pm (#2573 of 2970)
Oh, I see what you mean now, So Sirius. Yeah that is a bit odd if they are meant to be under cover to be blurting out their real identities.
Die Zimtzicke - Aug 21, 2007 9:11 pm (#2574 of 2970)
The thestral that was grazing on the Weasley's lawn...what was it grazing on? Mrs. Weasley's chickens? In OotP we are shown the thestrals as being meat eaters.
By the way, if I bought a sari, I'd ask the person who sold it to me to explain how to use it. I've actually done that and they are usually quite accomodating. That's what I'm doing with Harry Potter, in a sense. I'm admitting I don't always understand it. It does not always make sense to me, and I need help.
legolas returns - Aug 21, 2007 10:40 pm (#2575 of 2970)
The thestrals might have been looking for worms.
Jenniffler - Aug 22, 2007 6:32 am (#2576 of 2970)
Therstrals would be very interested in the yard's contents, on account of the blood spilt from George's wound.
Choices - Aug 22, 2007 8:33 am (#2577 of 2970)
Thestrals eat meat, but we do not know if they exclusively eat meat. Perhaps they, like horses to which they are similar, also eat grass, hay, etc. Maybe it is that they prefer meat, but will eat other things when no meat is available. As Jenniffler suggested, perhaps the blood on the grass is what drew their attention.
journeymom - Aug 22, 2007 9:56 am (#2578 of 2970)
Ew. That would be typical of JKR's grim sense of humor.
Nathan Zimmermann - Aug 22, 2007 10:19 am (#2579 of 2970)
I wonder if the the Thestrals were supposed to be an homage to the Mares of Diomedes, except that in the world of Harry Potter Thestrals really kinder and gentler than their physical appearamce leads one to believe?
Die Zimtzicke - Aug 22, 2007 11:10 am (#2580 of 2970)
I have always suspected that. The thing with the mares is a good possibility. I'll have to give it some more thought.
Morlicar - Aug 22, 2007 12:11 pm (#2581 of 2970)
With regard to the wizards not understanding muggle dress when they live among them: I got the feeling that most wizards think muggles are beneath them. Hence, they are ignored. When the time comes to interact with the muggles, they really only have snatches of data. As to asking a muggle how to dress appropriately: to do that would probably require explaining why you don't already know. Wizards aren't terribly logical in the main (c.f. Snape's potion puzzle and Hermione's comments), so coming up with an excuse that doesn't jeapardize secrecy is an issue. Personally, I think that these days, they'd get by in their usual attire. They'd be mistaken for some odd cultist, but other than that, they'd be left alone.
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 28, 2007 7:32 pm (#2582 of 2970)
I've a question: If the MoM can taboo a word like "Voldemort", why couldn't they taboo "Avada Kedavra", "Crucio", and "Imperio"?
zelmia - Aug 28, 2007 9:49 pm (#2583 of 2970)
Here's a theory off the top of my head, Mrs B:
I'm going to suggest that, in the same way the Prophecy can only be taken by someone whose name is on it, "Taboo" can only be implemented on one's own name. Voldemort, who was the de facto Minister for Magic, could "taboo" his own name. But for ordinary spells (even the Unforgiveable ones) it's probably not possible to "Taboo" them, otherwise surely the Ministry would have done so long ago.
legolas returns - Aug 28, 2007 11:15 pm (#2584 of 2970)
I dont know but would the ministry want to pop into a place where the AKs were flying?
Die Zimtzicke - Aug 29, 2007 5:24 am (#2585 of 2970)
Why would the ministry want to taboo unforgivables, when they authorized use of them during the first war, and might want to do so again?
zelmia - Aug 29, 2007 11:03 am (#2586 of 2970)
Well yeah, that too. I'm saying even if they did want to (which I agree would be pretty stupid), they probably can't.
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 29, 2007 11:10 am (#2587 of 2970)
I don't know.... If the Ministry can track where an Imperius Curse is cast, for example, they could have a heads up on who is under the influence of it. If Crucio were cast the Aurors could pop in to save people from prolonged torture. I don't know that it can only be cast on names.
Die Zimtzicke - Sep 1, 2007 10:02 pm (#2588 of 2970)
Harry's cloak was one of the Deathly Hallows, which meant it was super special and powerful and protected its owner from all kinds of spells, yet in PoA the fake Moody can see through it. How is that? Does anyone know?
Choices - Sep 2, 2007 9:40 am (#2589 of 2970)
Perhaps you can not see through it with normal, human eyes, but Moody had a special magical eye - that may have made the difference.
geauxtigers - Sep 2, 2007 8:19 pm (#2590 of 2970)
I think that is the only explanation. How many people have eyes like Moody? Surely slim to none.
Die Zimtzicke - Sep 2, 2007 8:26 pm (#2591 of 2970)
We don't know that and I wish we did.
TomProffitt - Sep 3, 2007 3:22 am (#2592 of 2970)
Die Zimtzicke, I have my doubts that an object being a Deathly Hallow made it "super special and powerful." I think Rowling's intention was for the Hallows to have been a hollow dream that Dumbledore and Grindelwald pursued, and Dumbledore didn't find his true reward until he accepted that "death was merely the next great adventure."
I don't believe Rowling intended for any of the Hallows to be quite as perfect as myth had made them. The wand was not invincible, the ring did not give living flesh to the dead, and the cloak did not hide a person from all things.
Nicoline Vance - Sep 5, 2007 3:55 pm (#2593 of 2970)
...a hollow dream...
The wand was not invincible, the ring did not give living flesh to the dead, and the cloak did not hide a person from all things. Tom Proffitt
Excellent post, Tom. How sad, yet how true.
I would also guess that just because the cloak made you invisible, didn't mean people couldn't know you were there. The wearer was still solid, still breathing. Perhaps the magical eye had heat-sensitive vision?
Moody had nothing on my mom. She could tell which of her 4 children entered a darkened room just by the way they walked and breathed! She would scare me in the dark, when she would call out my name. (When I was little, I would try to sneak into my parents' bed at night.)
totyle - Sep 13, 2007 8:51 pm (#2594 of 2970)
I'm not sure where to put these...my rambling thoughts after rereading PS for the third time since DH came out. They're not particularly odd but just teensy things that made me wonder:
1. What do wizards and witches wear under their cloaks? I'm assuming they're NOT all like Archie! The adults seem so clueless on Muggle clothing so it just makes me wonder..
2. In the list Harry gets describing the school requirements it says all pupils' clothes should carry their name tags.(PS Bloomsbury paperback pg52) Poor Harry..wonder who sewed his for him? Petunia???! Definitely not.
3. I thought it odd that Hagrid describes the MAIN job of the MOM is to keep it from the Muggles that there's still witches and wizards up and down the country.(PS Bloomsbury paperback pg 51) One of their jobs..yes but MAIN job..thought it was funny..
I just cant seem to stop reading PS, its like Im pretending the other books are all not out yet and I have 6 more to wait for...sigh...if only it were true!
Choices - Sep 14, 2007 9:13 am (#2595 of 2970)
Totyle - "3. I thought it odd that Hagrid describes the MAIN job of the MOM is to keep it from the Muggles that there's still witches and wizards up and down the country.(PS Bloomsbury paperback pg 51) One of their jobs..yes but MAIN job..thought it was funny."
Well, I think you have to look at it like this - if Muggles find out about the wizarding world, the exposure will spell the end of life as wizards know it. So, their very lifestyle depends on secrecy. If that goes, nothing else matters - all is lost. Thus, it is the MAIN job of the MOM to maintain secrecy.
Steve Newton - Sep 14, 2007 10:14 am (#2596 of 2970)
I also would take a cautious approach to anything that Hagrid says. He does not seem the type to keep up on things other than friends and his animals.
Choices - Sep 14, 2007 2:41 pm (#2597 of 2970)
Normally, I would agree with you, Steve, but I think a lot of what we hear from Hagrid is stuff he has heard Dumbledore say, therefore I think it can not be totally discounted.
Michael Franz - Sep 16, 2007 12:25 pm (#2598 of 2970)
I've often wondered about the wizarding world's tendency to create weirdness for the sake of weirdness. For instance, The Monster Book of Monsters. Why would anyone create a textbook that would bite you if you didn't handle it properly? And the Invisible Book of Invisibility? Was the wizard who wrote that on crack?
But, then, I figured out an explanation that makes sense. Wizards always pride themselves on their superiority over Muggles -- but, deep down, they also have an inferiority complex, too. Because even though the wizards have all this power, it is they who are in hiding from the Muggles, not the other way around. This undeniable fact is a hard pill to swallow for the prideful wizards. So, what do they do to get around it?
Simple. They infuse magic into even the simplest of everyday objects. Not because it's more convenient, or because it makes sense, but because they can -- and Muggles can't.
So, every time a wizard is bitten by The Monster Book of Monsters, he just smiles, knowing that no Muggle can buy a book that can bite them!
But, how can we explain the fact that wizards think a pink floral nightgown is appropriate attire for Muggle men? Well, remember, the few wizards who dress so outlandishly are probably a few bricks short of a load. Since wizards live longer than Muggles, they seem to have a much greater chance of descending into utter senility in their old age (as Rita Skeeter said about Bathilda Bagshot.)
Yet, the wizard wearing the one-piece bathing costume was the Head of the Magical Law Enforcement Squad! Surely he couldn't be old and senile! But note that half-bloods and Muggle-borns seem to be immune to this weirdness. Is it because their Muggle parent(s) taught them about Muggle life? Partly -- but it seems that purebloods are as willfully blind about Muggles as the Muggles are about magic. If a pureblood thought information about Muggle ways was actually important, it would short-circuit their wizarding pride again.
Ah, but the wizard who delivered the summons to Mr. Gaunt was against such pureblood prejudice, wasn't he? Maybe in the abstract, but subconsciously, the prejudice was still there, because it's been drilled into wizarding minds for thousands of years. Wizards do their level best to make sure Muggles don't know they exist -- and wizards also do their best to pretend Muggles don't, either. So, if they actually took enough notice of Muggles to remember what they were wearing, it could lead to greater wizard-Muggle interaction, which could ultimately lead to a breach of secrecy.
Or the wizards could all be on crack.
megfox* - Sep 16, 2007 1:57 pm (#2599 of 2970)
Maybe all the Bat-Bogey Hexes, Levicorpus, and Jelly-Leg Jinxes flying around Hogwarts addle their brains slightly.
TheSaint - Sep 18, 2007 12:10 pm (#2600 of 2970)
Michael Franz - Why would anyone create a textbook that would bite you if you didn't handle it properly?
Why would anyone make teenagers carry around eggs and make them treat them as babies? Or dolls that wet thier diapers or cry for gosh sakes?
I don't think the wizards corner the market on weird...it just someone's 'brilliant idea' for a teaching aide. As for the Invisible Book of Invisibility? I tend to think of that as a bit like The Emporers New Clothes. Was there ever one in the first place?
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Choices - Sep 18, 2007 4:26 pm (#2601 of 2970)
Sounds like a money making scheme to me. You bring in a load of invisible books, collect your money and ummmm....become invisible. LOL
Orion - Nov 11, 2007 11:06 am (#2602 of 2970)
Hmm. I have two questions which don't seem to fit into any active thread. As this thread is at least theoretically open for posts, I hope somebody out there will read this and know an answer. The first question is: If Moody in GOF is a fake Moody, why are his lessons so good, instead of bad on purpose? For example, he teaches the class to shake off an imperious, and Harry grows so good at it that he survives Little Hangleton. Isn't fake Moody working against his own interests here?
The second question is very general. Where do wizards and witches shop? Where do they get their food from? Is there a wizarding supermarket anywhere? They can't get everything from Diagon Alley, because it would hardly be reasonable to apparate there from far away places. You can get vegetables from your own garden, but hardly a cow or a banana. And food is one of the five excemptions of Grawp's Law of Transfiguration or so. Does anybody know?
Mrs. Sirius - Nov 11, 2007 11:15 am (#2603 of 2970)
I would imagine wizards like the Malfoys send their house elves off to market to do those low mundane things where ever it is that 'things like that get done". Just like the aristocrisy anywhere, I imagine they may instruct the servants to go get the very best(possible at the best price) but not concern themselves with whee that might be.
Molly might well go the village grocer and purchase those things they can't grow themselves. But go to Diagon Alley or Hogsmeade once a week or once a month.
(I order organic and natural foods from our food co-op once a month, and before the holidays venture to Hartford or New Haven for special ingredients of ethnic holiday foods.)
In the USA, we have many immigrants, and while they may live in various places, they tend to shopp and worship in central places. Once a week you go into your immigrant communities area to buy those special food you find only in your immigrant areas.
The issue of how fake Moody teaches was well addressed on another thread sometime ago. I hope someone remembers which one that was.
Orion - Nov 11, 2007 12:15 pm (#2604 of 2970)
But - a house elf on a muggle market? They would have to modify the muggles' memories every time! Where do they shop? There must be several wizarding markets in places where wizarding folk lives, or they will all starve.
Orion - Nov 12, 2007 11:37 am (#2605 of 2970)
Something else is odd. How do new spells come into existence? Do you just wish that something should happen, wave your wand, invent a name in very bad latin and practise? Does the spell then auto-connect to the magical network which just floats in the air? Can anybody make their own spells?
And by the way, how do you practise spells? How exactly do you improve? Do you simply learn to concentrate harder? How do you know what feeling you have to acchieve in order to improve your performance? When you play a musical instrument, you have a mental image of a series of movement before you can actually perform it, so you try to get closer to this image. Because you already know how it's supposed to feel. But if you don't know what you're supposed to acchieve, how can you practise it?
Mrs. Sirius - Nov 12, 2007 8:19 pm (#2606 of 2970)
We got a taste of how to practice spells in GOF when Harry was trying to master Accio! He did practice and have to learn to concentrate and focus.
zelmia - Nov 13, 2007 12:35 pm (#2607 of 2970)
We also got a sense of inventing new spells in PA, when Hermione used "mobilarbus" (move tree) to hide Harry from the teachers at the next table; and also the spells in HBP, which of course we know were Snape's doing. Both of these spell required an understanding of the basic concept of the function of spells.
I would say Latin isn't really "Latin" inside the story. It's simply the incantation they have to learn. Rowling could just as easily have made up an entirely new word for each spell, but the Latin already has a recogniseable structure to it. Which means that Hermione knew that "mobil" moves an object and she simply had to formulate the spell for the object ("arbus" - tree) that she wanted to move. It's unlikely that there was an existing spell for moving a tree, after all.
I would say that the musical instrument is a good analogy, Orion. You have an idea of what you want the notes/tune to sound like and you have to work at it to make it happen. We see this in the DA meetings as well as Mrs Sirius's example.
Mrs. Sirius - Nov 15, 2007 10:13 pm (#2608 of 2970)
I pick up POA, today and I turned to this:
"Harry ate breakfast each morning in the Leaky Cauldron, where he liked watching the other guests; funny little witches from the country, up for a day's shopping;...' POA p 49 (Scholastic)
Denise P. - Nov 26, 2007 8:19 am (#2609 of 2970)
As I was driving, I was pondering thestrals. We know they can't be seen by anyone who has not seen death, which is why for ages the students all thought the carriages were magically pulling themselves (and seriously, in all the time this has been going on, no student *ever* spilled the beans and it was a widely known secret that thestrals pulled the carriages??)
So, we have thestrals pulling the carriages, between the poles, correct? Uhm, if that is the case, wouldn't students have seen the harness on them? They had to be hooked up somehow to the carriage in order to pull it? I know, suspend my disbelief but that seems like a no brainer.
The giant squid - Nov 27, 2007 6:31 am (#2610 of 2970)
Maybe they hold onto the poles with their wings?
Choices - Nov 27, 2007 9:51 am (#2611 of 2970)
When an animagus transforms, all their clothes and such disappears with them and reappears when they resume their human form. Maybe, when a Thestral is harnessed to a carriage, the harness becomes invisible when it comes in contact with the flesh/bones of the Thestral? Just an idea....
Denise P. - Nov 27, 2007 12:35 pm (#2612 of 2970)
Following that logic, when the gang headed out to the MOM in OOP, they would not have seen one another on the thestrals yet I think it is mentioned that they do see one another.
Soul Search - Nov 27, 2007 1:05 pm (#2613 of 2970)
The carriage harnesses are, of course, made from thestral leather, which also exhibits the "seen only by those who have seen death" magic. The leather is made only from thestrals who have died a natural death at a very great age.
Choices - Nov 27, 2007 5:31 pm (#2614 of 2970)
Well....since Denise blew my idea out of the water - LOL - I'm going with Soul Search's idea. Good thinking, Soul Search! :-) Hagrid probably made all the harnesses himself - waste not, want not.
shepherdess - Nov 28, 2007 9:30 am (#2615 of 2970)
And for that matter, why did none of the students ever hear the clip-clop of the thestral's hooves (or whatever sound they made) on the ground and wonder what was making the sounds?
Steve Newton - Nov 28, 2007 9:45 am (#2616 of 2970)
Or smell them?
zelmia - Nov 28, 2007 12:00 pm (#2617 of 2970)
That's quite a morbid thought, that the Thestrals would be harnessed using their dead brethren. I don't care for that.
Contrary to what the film shows us, in the book the carriages are described as "stagecoaches"
Being inside the carriage (which I got the impression was rather creaky and noisy), the kids wouldn't necessarily be able to hear any clopping of hooves, particularly if the track was soft or if they were talking. The book does describe the carriages as smelling "faintly of mold and straw" so the kids probably wouldn't be able to smell the Thestrals.
I would suggest that the harnesses are either made of some creature that can become invisible (Tebo is one according to FB) or that the Thestrals' own invisibility somehow imbues the harness with the same power while the Thestral is wearing it. Or that it's just Magic!
Choices - Nov 28, 2007 12:13 pm (#2618 of 2970)
Since horses wear saddles and bridles made of leather (recycled cattle), I don't think the Thestrals would notice that their harness was made from recycled Thestrals. :-)
PeskyPixie - Nov 28, 2007 12:32 pm (#2619 of 2970)
I was thinking along the same lines, Choices.
However, I do agree with Zelmia's explanation about why students would fail to sense Thestrals.
Anna L. Black - Nov 30, 2007 2:24 am (#2620 of 2970)
It might be my imagination, but didn't the thestrals fly when pulling the carriages? That'll explain why there was no sound of hooves
zelmia - Nov 30, 2007 1:20 pm (#2621 of 2970)
Could be. But you might be thinking of Madame Maxim's Abraxans. They are not invisible though.
Choices - Nov 30, 2007 1:30 pm (#2622 of 2970)
I'm not sure how the Thestrals could fly and still keep the carriages on the ground. I thought the only time they fly is taking the kids to the MOM and then in DH.
PeskyPixie - Nov 30, 2007 1:36 pm (#2623 of 2970)
I suppose one of us could just re-read the passage of the ride from Hogsmeade station to Hogwarts in OotP? I'm too lazy to do it at the moment, but someone can.
shepherdess - Nov 30, 2007 11:54 pm (#2624 of 2970)
I have it here. It talks about the wheels of the carriages creaking into motion, the carriages rattling and swaying as they moved up the road and jingling to a halt in front of the castle. But no mention of the sounds (or smells) of the thestrals.
Apparently, thestrals are just very quiet animals. I went on to read about Hagrid's lesson on thestrals, and nowhere did it mention any sounds being made by them. The only ways anyone knew they were there was seeing them (those who could), seeing the flesh/bait disappearing as it was being eaten, or being told they were there. At one point it says: "Two more horses came quietly out of the trees, one of them passing very close to Parvati, who shivered and pressed herself closer to the tree, saying, 'I think I felt something, I think it's near me!'" It was close enough for her to feel it, but she still didn't hear it.
I also read the part where the DA members were getting ready to fly to the Ministry. Again the thestrals were silent, not even making any sound when they took off. And when they reached their destination, it says that Harry "braced for a sudden impact, but the horse touched the dark ground as lightly as a shadow".
I don't know; maybe they don't have hooves? Hmm...that doesn't seem right.
Ok, so they're extremely quiet creatures. But that doesn't explain the harnesses.
Meoshimo - Dec 1, 2007 12:01 am (#2625 of 2970)
It makes me wonder if, in addition to not being able to see them, one's ability to hear them or feel them is reduced as well, and their being invisible to those who have not seen death is simply the most well-known. It's not like you can't touch them, they are real and very much there but they're just less tangible to the senses. In the books, does anyone to whom they are invisible ever describe how they feel? I can't remember...
shepherdess - Dec 1, 2007 4:22 pm (#2626 of 2970)
As I recall now (having been several hours since reading it ), they were described as feeling boney, and it felt wierd to be riding something you couldn't even see. And apparently, it was pretty frightening when the thestrals suddenly dove downward when they got there. But that was about it as far as feeling them.
Meoshimo - Dec 19, 2007 7:39 am (#2627 of 2970)
I might be forgetting something basic and will feel stupid when it's pointed out to me, but...
Upon placing baby Harry on his aunt's doorstep, how did Dumbledore know that Lily died to save him? Am I right to assume that Harry was the only surviving witness? I'm skeptical that this would work, but could Dumbledore have extracted the memory from Harry?
PeskyPixie - Dec 19, 2007 9:28 am (#2628 of 2970)
Dumbledore knows that Voldy may offer Lily a chance to save herself. He later sees the mark of a failed AK on baby Harry's forehead. He puts two and two together: Voldy does indeed try to keep his word to Snape, but Lily sacrifices her life, invoking the ancient magic of sacrifice-love which protects Harry.
wolf~ears - Dec 19, 2007 12:46 pm (#2629 of 2970)
I've wondered about LV giving his word to Snape that he won't kill Lily if he can get to Harry, and actually acting on this (telling Lily to get out of the way, thinking she doesn't have to get hurt if she isn't stupid). LV doesn't care about anyone, and is often cruel to his followers. Is it like him to consider Snape's feelings at all? I think (although I'm sorry I don't have examples with me) that at other times he kills people gratuitously and randomly, doesn't avoid it because it isn't essential to his purpose. And as far as Snape goes, he has no regret (Harry can tell) about killing him after what he imagines is a lifetime of loyal and valuable service.
LV isn't smart enough to realize he loses the loyalty of his followers if he sacrifices their loved ones--one of the things that brings him down.
And DD saying "if he knows how much she means to you, surely the Dark Lord will spare her?" I actually wondered whether he was being ironic, knowing the Dark Lord as he did.
PeskyPixie - Dec 19, 2007 2:11 pm (#2630 of 2970)
Zelmia provided a wonderful example a while back, about Snape probably claiming to Voldy that he wants to have Lily as a sort of plaything or prize, similar to Amon Goeth and Helen Hirsch in Schindler's List.
LV is known for playing 'favourites' among his followers and presenting little gifts to those who provide useful services to him (it seems to make the rest try harder to earn these favours). He tries to give Snape (bearer of the prophecy) the prize of his choice (to torment until he tires of it), but when Lily annoys him by refusing to step aside he zaps her as well.
Upon his return in GoF Voldy should be suspicious of Snape's solitary lifestyle (despite his claims that he'll marry a 'worthier' Pure-Blood someday), however, LV doesn't have the slightest inkling about love, does he?
wolf~ears - Dec 20, 2007 12:22 am (#2631 of 2970)
Thanks for that explanation, PeskyPixie. Somehow the instances of cruelty stuck in my mind (making Wormtail suffer after cutting off his hand, giving Draco a suicide mission, even humiliating Bellatrix by congratulating her on her niece marrying a werewolf) and I don't remember the little gifts.
He may have realized early that Snape could be a real asset as a spy. But wouldn't think to worry about his loyalty on account of Lily's murder. No, he didn't have a clue, did he? Didn't know when he'd lost the Malfoys, and of course it would never occur to him that Regulus would care about Kreacher. So long, Voldy. (I never called him that. Maybe it's a new phase in our relationship).
PeskyPixie - Dec 20, 2007 8:37 pm (#2632 of 2970)
By 'gifts' I meant little things such as who gets to sit next to him at meetings, but he does give Wormtail that nifty hand (with the hidden surprise!).
Love in all its forms does Voldy in. (BTW, I've called him 'Voldy' for a while now and he doesn't seem to mind ).
Orion - Dec 21, 2007 4:11 am (#2633 of 2970)
Still, I always wondered why LV was so generous and promised Snape to grant him this wish. LV is no human being, he is a monster. Do monsters do someone a favour?
Julia H. - Dec 21, 2007 5:42 am (#2634 of 2970)
He probably thought the information about the prophecy was extremely valuable, while Lily's life or death was not important for his goals, so he thought he might just as well let her live. He didn't really have to give or do anything by granting this favour, since he supposed Lily would just step aside. As soon as he saw that Lily was in his way, he changed his mind.
wolf~ears - Dec 21, 2007 1:22 pm (#2635 of 2970)
I wonder about the impossibility of conjuring food, because it seems that witches and wizards can conjure organic material. Hermione conjures canaries in HPB. If a witch could conjure birds and was hungry, couldn't she kill them, cook them and eat them? Maybe Ron wouldn't eat canaries if he was starving, but it's the principle. And she conjures a wreath at the graveyard--plant material. Couldn't she conjure dandelion greens? I think in transfiguration class that there are transfigurations between objects and animals.
I thought also there was some time when Molly tapped an empty pot with her wand and it filled with soup or something, but maybe I misunderstood what was happening.
zelmia - Dec 24, 2007 11:31 am (#2636 of 2970)
That's such a great question, Wolf-ears. My personal understanding from the few times such magic is alluded to in the saga is that witches and wizards cannot simply conjure something out of thin air, though that is the way it appears. The conjured object must actually already exist somewhere else.
In DH, for example, we are told specifically that food cannot be made to appear that doesn't already exist ("Your mother can't produce food out of thin air," said Hermione. "No one can... It's impossible to make good food out of nothing! You can Summon it if you know where it is, you can transform it, you can increase the quantity if you've already got some -" - DH 15).
To my mind, I don't think this "law" would be limited only to foodstuffs. Seems it should apply to anything. In addition, once conjured, there is the basic non-magical issue of simply being able to cook. In the section I cited the Trio are eating ordinary fish that Harry caught in a nearby stream; but that doesn't mean any of them know how to cook fish properly.
What I think is odd about that whole issue is that Kreacher had no trouble preparing rather lavish meals for the Trio while they were staying at 12GP - whereas Hermione had previously been unable to even "transform" moldy bread into edible. Did Kreacher just apparate down to Diagon Alley and restock the cupboard?
Which also makes me wonder: what did Kreacher eat all that time he was alone in the house prior to Sirius's re-installment there?
Allison R - Dec 24, 2007 2:38 pm (#2637 of 2970)
Zelmia, don't House Elves use a different magic than people in the Wizarding World? Perhaps Kreacher's restrictions on conjuring food were different than Hermione's? Some of Hermione's struggles with the food may also have been due to lack of experience/proficiency and not to magical rules.
You have a good question about Kreacher. Maybe while he was rattling around in the house all by himself he was able to apparate to some other place and eat when he got hungry? Some unknown House-Elf Cafe somewhere? = )
Steve Newton - Dec 24, 2007 3:03 pm (#2638 of 2970)
I think that I would rather not think about what Kreacher might have eaten.
Orion - Dec 25, 2007 3:04 am (#2639 of 2970)
Maybe Rowling didn't think the food issue through or it is one of those things that don't work out properly even if you think them through and you're forced to patch over the inconsistencies. Like, for example, obviously Diagon Alley and Hogsmeade are the only places in Great Britain where wizards and witches can buy food with wizarding money, so they have to apparate there from all over the country. Isn't that rather inconvenient?
Or the fact that you can't conjure food out of thin air, but you can increase it in its quantity. Wouldn't wizarding food stores make very poor business if every customer bought only tiny quantities, because it was cheaper, and increased the quantity at home?
I also thought about Kreacher's suddenly so vastly improved cooking qualities. Where exactly does he take the food from? He may be able to apparate to Diagon Alley easily, because it's in the same city, but he needs money. Is there still money from the Blacks lying around in the house, or does Kreacher have access to the Blacks' Gringotts account? (Which would be rather reasonable, because surely the house-elfs are doing all the shopping, and it would be a nuisance to give them cash every time. They're probably mortally afraid to cheat on their owners.)
Edited to add: Another thing that doesn't work out is electricity. Rowling states that it doesn't work in the presence of magic. There are, however, inconsistencies in the books. When the order members or Dumbledore visit Privet Drive, for example, there is no mention of malfunctioning household appliances, lights, the fridge, the heating system, everything. Another example is Ron, who learns to drive a car in the Epilogue. A modern car is stuffed with electronics. In the first book, we also learn that wizards and witches walk around openly and greet Harry. Everywhere they go, they would wreak havoc with traffic lights, mobile phones, shop lights and everything muggle-like in their vicinity.
Anna L. Black - Dec 25, 2007 10:36 am (#2640 of 2970)
I think that the problem with electical appliances is only at Hogwarts, which is an enourmously magical place. Other places just don't have the same "concentration" of magic...
zelmia - Dec 25, 2007 11:43 am (#2641 of 2970)
Magical people don't affect electricity, magic itself does. The Wizarding Wireless is run by magic instead of electricity, for example. But I think Anna is right about the high concentration of magic also being a factor.
Michael Franz - Dec 25, 2007 4:00 pm (#2642 of 2970)
Hermione conjures canaries in HPB. If a witch could conjure birds and was hungry, couldn't she kill them, cook them and eat them?
I suspect the "birds" Hermione conjured were actually magical constructs rather than real birds, similar to shadow conjuration in Dungeons & Dragons. It is possible for wizards to transfigure an inanimate object into a living thing, as Fudge did when he met the Prime Minister, but if you tried to kill and eat it, it might revert back to its inanimate state.
Meoshimo - Dec 27, 2007 11:07 am (#2643 of 2970)
My sister had a question, and I wasn't sure where to put it, and it may have been discussed before, but...
In Order of the Phoenix, it appears that Snape did not know of the plan to lure Harry to the Department of Mysteries to retrieve the prophecy. It seems strange that Voldemort did not involve Snape, as he would have been extremely useful in ensuring Harry's ability to leave Hogwarts. Can anyone shed light on this?
zelmia - Dec 27, 2007 11:24 am (#2644 of 2970)
An excellent question! Personally, I would say that it's because there wasn't a plan as such. Voldemort had simply discovered the Horcrux-connection between himself and Harry and immediately used it to his advantage.
I'm not sure it was possible to privately contact Snape since all Owls and the Flue Network were being monitored. Even using the "tattoo" method would be no guarantee that Snape would be able to pop in to get instructions without his absence being noticed - particularly with a high-ranking Ministry official (Umbridge) as Headmaster - and they needed Snape's "true" loyalties to stay undetected for the time being.
Soul Search - Dec 27, 2007 1:26 pm (#2645 of 2970)
I think we can some up with some canon suggesting Snape was, at least, aware "of" the plan to lure Harry to the prophecy room, even if he didn't know the exact timing.
Dumbledore tasked Snape with teaching Harry Occulmency. Everyone told Harry that it was very important he learn Occulmency, so Dumbledore, no doubt, emphasized how important it was to Snape.
Snape even "complemented" Harry on his first try. But, the lessons went down hill from there. Harry even complained that Snape was not teaching him how to do the Occulmency. All we ever saw Snape doing was berating Harry and then telling him to empty his mind of all emotion; not a very practical teaching method, I would judge. Harry even commented that his mind seemed more open to Voldemort after his sessions with Snape. Ron makes the suggestion that Snape is trying to make Harry more vulnerable to Voldemort's mind. Ron was probably right.
My read is Snape had instructions from Voldemort to not allow Harry to learn Occulmency, otherwise Voldemort could not get the prophecy.
When Harry tells Snape "he's got Padfoot at the place where it is hidden" Snape picked up on the situation rather quickly. Clearly, Snape knew of Voldemort's general plan.
So, Snape had to have known Voldmeort's general plan. And, it would appear, Snape did his best so Voldmeort could lure Harry to the prophecy room.
zelmia - Dec 27, 2007 1:44 pm (#2646 of 2970)
Wonderful analysis, Soul Search. You may be right.
But I'm not sure that Voldemort was aware of the connection at the time Harry and Snape are ordered to learn and teach Occlumency, respectively. And Snape, who is a decent Legilimens could very easily have been able to decipher Harry's cryptic message just by looking into Harry's thoughts.
Would it have been wise for Snape to have informed Voldemort of the connection? By doing so, he would likely jeopardise his own relatively untouchable position as "spy". More importantly, would he countermand a direct order from Dumbledore?
Still, there is something to be said for how vulnerable Harry felt after the sessions with Snape. And Ron does have a habit of making accurate statements unwittingly.
Soul Search - Dec 27, 2007 2:47 pm (#2647 of 2970)
(Later) Dumbledore tells Harry Voldemort became aware of the mind connection and that he could influence Harry's mind after the attack on Mr. Weasly. How did Dumbledore know this? Why, Snape told him, of course.
Harry started having the MoM corridor dreams while at #12 after the attack on Mr. Weasley. Voldemort had formulated his plan by then and had started planting memories that Harry thought of as "dreams."
Snape had to tell Voldemort he had been tasked with teaching Harry occulmency. Voldemort was relying on being able to plant a false memory in Harry's mind. For Snape to not tell Voldemort about the occulmency lessons would have earned him a big snake bite. Voldemort would have been elated: with Snape appearing to be teaching Harry, but not really teaching him, no one else would try. His plan for the prophecy was safe.
We have seen Snape (and Dumbledore) place others at risk to maintain his cover with Voldemort: Emmeline Vance, Mad Eye Moody, others. The occulmency lessons would have fallen in the same class. Dumbledore would have had to have known. They likely didn't expect Harry to be so stupid as to go the Ministry without checking with some Order member, so their duplicity couldn't cause any harm. It was Kreacher who through a wrench in their plans by diverting Sirius at just the right time. Snape must have been in a real panic when he discovered Harry had, indeed, gone to the Ministry. That wasn't supposed to happen. Maybe that's why Dumbledore admitted to so much blame for Sirius's death; it was a lot more than just not telling Harry about the prophecy.
I had another thought. Why did Dumbledore have Snape teach Harry occulmency? He had to have been aware of the mutual animosity. An emotional state that would have made it impossible for Snape to teach and for Harry to learn. Alright, Snape was great at occulmency, but McGonagall or Flitwick had to be good enough to teach Harry. And, they were better teachers.
Dumbledore needed Snape to NOT teach Harry, so as to maintain his cover with Voldemort.
zelmia - Dec 27, 2007 7:35 pm (#2648 of 2970)
Why did Dumbledore have Snape teach Harry occulmency? He had to have been aware of the mutual animosity. - Well, Dumbledore openly admits that he screwed up on that point; that he failed to recognise that some wounds simply run too deep, etc.
PeskyPixie - Dec 27, 2007 9:01 pm (#2649 of 2970)
Okay, so Snape tries to not teach Harry Occlumency and both Dumbledore and Lord Voldemort are aware of this?
Soul Search - Dec 28, 2007 8:47 am (#2650 of 2970)
Yes, Dumbledore does admit he screwed up, but the more I think of it Dumbledore didn't tell Harry everything. I just don't see how Snape could have maintained his cover with Voldmeort and truely taught Harry occulmency when Voldmeort's whole plan to retrieve the prophecy depended on being able to plant a false memory in Harry's mind.
Dumbledore accepting most of the blame for Sirius's death always seemed a bit lame to me. It makes more sense if Dumbledore and Snape had some plan where Snape only pretended to teach Harry occulmency and that plan went awry.
I think it had to be that way. Snape's spy role required he tell Voldemort about teaching Harry occulmency and that he tell Dumbledore Voldemort wanted him to only pretend to teach Harry. Dumbledore had to be in on the deception, otherwise he might have found Harry a better teacher.
The lessons are the best canon that Snape was not really trying to teach Harry. Harry was a rather good wizard, especially under pressure. His first attempt at occulmency was rather good, but the lessons, over a span of months, went down hill. Snape kept telling Harry to empty his mind of all emotion. Yet, in Deathly Hallows, Harry finally does learn to block Voldemort's thoughts by using emotion, first with Dobby's death. Snape was not only not trying to teach Harry, he was deliberately preventing Harry from learning.
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zelmia - Dec 28, 2007 12:21 pm (#2651 of 2970)
That certainly makes sense, Soul Search.
Soul Search - Dec 28, 2007 3:49 pm (#2652 of 2970)
Thanks zelmia, but there are still some parts that don't make sense. Lupin, likely at Dumbledore's prompting, tells Harry that it is important he learn occulmency. Dumbledore, himself, tells Harry he must learn occulmency as he is departing his office (after Umbridge raids the DA.)
I may have bits of it right, but there still seems to be something missing.
I think I will have another go at OotP with this in mind.
Orion - Dec 29, 2007 7:15 am (#2653 of 2970)
"The lessons are the best canon that Snape was not really trying to teach Harry. Harry was a rather good wizard, especially under pressure. His first attempt at occulmency was rather good, but the lessons, over a span of months, went down hill. Snape kept telling Harry to empty his mind of all emotion. Yet, in Deathly Hallows, Harry finally does learn to block Voldemort's thoughts by using emotion, first with Dobby's death. Snape was not only not trying to teach Harry, he was deliberately preventing Harry from learning." (Soul Search)
I really love conspiracy theories, but this one is quite far out. Rowling would have made sure to clarify such a plot twist in DH if she had intended it. I think Harry is just too fascinated with his recurring visions that he doesn't even intend to learn anything. Sirius' death is a very bitter lesson for him to learn, so in DH he is mature enough to master Occlumency on his own.
What's more, I find it strange that Snape is described as a very good Legilimens if he can't even break through to Draco in HBP. Losing out against a teenager?
rambkowalczyk - Dec 29, 2007 7:50 am (#2654 of 2970)
Dumbledore may have had alot to feel guilty about but instructing Snape not to teach Occlumency correctly wasn't one of the reasons. As Orion says Harry was to fascinated with the visions. Both Snape and Harry had emotional baggage that prevented the trust needed from growing.
Also I don't think McGonagall was qualified to teach Occlumency. There is no indication that she knows how to do it. Consider the analogy of Snape and Pomphrey. Harry thinks that Pomphrey is equally qualified against dark arts maladies. But Dumbledore would rather put his life in Snape's hands.
Dumbledore had Snape teach Occlumency because Snape was the best person other than Dumbledore to teach Harry. Dumbledore knew that his love for Lily would insure that Snape would do his best. He forgot to take in account that Harry resembles James too much.
Steve Newton - Dec 29, 2007 2:07 pm (#2655 of 2970)
I think that Orion has nailed it. Harry didn't learn occlumency because he wanted to see what was happening more than he wanted to learn.
journeymom - Dec 29, 2007 4:57 pm (#2656 of 2970)
What's more, I find it strange that Snape is described as a very good Legilimens if he can't even break through to Draco in HBP. Losing out against a teenager?
Nit picking: Snape is described as an exceptional Occlumens, good at hiding what he's thinking. He was probably a good enough Legilimens, as well, good at reading what people are thinking And it's true, Snape does seem to give Harry many searching stares. But he wasn't described as an exceptional Legilimens.
Choices - Dec 29, 2007 5:05 pm (#2657 of 2970)
Journeymom is right, Snape wasn't described as an exceptional Legilimens, but how many times in the books does Harry comment that it was "like Snape could read his mind". I think Snape was probably very good at everything he did spy-wise.
shepherdess - Dec 29, 2007 5:20 pm (#2658 of 2970)
I'm not sure what to think. I've thought that all those "searching stares" were Snape using Legillimency on Harry. But we have descriptions of Harry seeing flashes of memories in his own head during those lessons with Snape.
So that raises two questions in my mind. 1.) If that is what happens when someone uses Legillimency on you, then could Snape have been reading Harry's mind during all those stares? 2.) If that's not what normally happens, then why did it happen to Harry during the lessons?
wolf~ears - Dec 29, 2007 6:19 pm (#2659 of 2970)
I'd like to join the skeptics of the "conspiracy theory" by pointing out that I didn't see much difference between the bad job Snape did of teaching Harry Occlumency and the bad job he did of teaching Harry Potions, by being so hostile to Harry that it was practically impossible for Harry to learn anything from him.
We know from Snape's memory of his conversations with Dumbledore that Snape had an irrational view of Harry (mistaking his character) because of Snape's hatred of James. It didn't sound as if Snape's behavior toward Harry as a teacher was the outcome of a calculated plan between Snape and Dumbledore to maintain Snape's cover.
Swedish Short-Snout - Dec 30, 2007 12:09 pm (#2660 of 2970)
There was two things in the last book that struck me as odd. The first one is Penelope Clearwater's Blood Status. In CS, she was attacked by the basilisk. But in DH, when HRH are catched by the Snatchers, Hermione pretends to be Penelope and says that she is half-blood, and she doesn't seem to be on the Mudblood list. Did the basilisk attack a half-blood? The second thing is Nagini. When she bites Mr. Weasley in OP, the wounds wont stop bleeding. But Hermione is able to heal Harry when he has been bitten. How stupid are the healers at St. Mungos? Why didn't they use dittany immediately?
Choices - Dec 30, 2007 3:20 pm (#2661 of 2970)
As to Penelope being attacked by the Basilisk, I have always just thought that she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I think Hermione was the intended victim of the Basilisk and Penelope was with Hermione and was also affected by the Basilisk's stare - probably seeing it's big yellow eyes in the mirror along with Hermione.
As to Mr. Weasley, perhaps he was more severely and extensively bitten than was Harry. He lost a lot of blood and that made him more difficult to treat.
zelmia - Dec 30, 2007 5:11 pm (#2662 of 2970)
Yes, Harry was treated immediately after the attack. Mr Weasley laid there for some time before anyone discovered him, giving plenty of time for the anit-coagulant properties of the venom to do extensive damage.
As for Penelope, I'm not sure we ever learned her blood-status. We assumed she was Muggle-born but does it actually say so? I would say not if she wasn't on the Snatchers' list, since they had been tracking all the Muggle-borns.
Hieronymus Graubart - Dec 31, 2007 11:50 am (#2663 of 2970)
Diary-Tom also told Harry that he was no longer interested in chasing Muggle-borns at this time. The attack on Hermione and Penelope was an emergency action to stop them before they could tell anybody about the basilisk.
PeskyPixie - Jan 1, 2008 6:53 pm (#2664 of 2970)
Cute kitty, zelmia! (Zelig, Mia, or someone else? )
Nagini is only ordered to hold Harry, not to kill him. She probably administers a dry bite or a reduced venom bite when he puts up a fight. Mr. Weasley and Snape are in far greater danger as Nagini is under no pressure to preserve their lives.
Swedish Short-Snout - Jan 2, 2008 12:06 pm (#2665 of 2970)
I guess you're right. What you said about Nagini makes sense. But I'm still wondering about Penelope. If a half-blood had been attacked then people should have talked about it, because it would mean that almost no one was safe. Perhaps they did, but Harry didn't hear it.
Julia H. - Jan 3, 2008 2:34 am (#2666 of 2970)
"I think that Orion has nailed it. Harry didn't learn occlumency because he wanted to see what was happening more than he wanted to learn." (Steve Newton)
I agree. In fact, I think the real efforts Harry is making are directed against Snape trying to make him close his mind (and this time not only because of Snape but because he is angry with Dumbledore as well). So, instead of learning Occlumency, he simply endures Snape's attacks on his mind (as he endures Umbridge's detentions without giving in to her) and he even makes discoveries about his dreams during the lessons. Snape senses this kind of resistance and tries to provoke Harry with worse and worse attacks to make him fight back in the required way. The result is a spectacular struggle of willpower between them in the course of which both tend to forget the original reason why they are there. Of course it is a rather mad idea to put them into this situation: the trainings force them to "pretend" they are enemies, which would strain even a normal teacher-student relationship, but these two people just play their roles too well. DD seems to be genuinely sorry about it in the end.
It is still possible though that there is one additional reason for DD to arrange these classes, although he does not explicitly confess that to Harry: I think he may have instructed Snape to monitor Harry's mind during these lessons and watch LV's presence there. That would be another reason why Snape calls forth all these memories in Harry's mind: he is searching for something and often finds what he is looking for. Of course, it is an almost impossible task for Snape to teach Harry how to close his mind to LV and at the same time keep being informed what is going on in Harry's mind - but it is not untypical of DD to give almost impossible assignments to those who are close to him. So Snape regularly attacks Harry's mind before he could resist and tells him to practice closing down his mind in the evenings, when LV is most likely to attack. (Speaking about LV: I do not think Snape could have informed him about the Occlumency lessons, as was earlier suggested. It is an essential aspect of Snape's cover as a spy that LV has no idea how skilled he is at Occlumency. Drawing LV's attention to the possibility would be absolutely dangerous - we see him search Snape's mind in DH and this is probably the routine.)
In the psychological battle between Harry and Snape, the latter has all the advantage of skill and experience, still he has one great disadvantage: he has far more and worse things to hide in case Harry enters his mind, so he puts certain memories in the Pensieve. Ironically, as it turns out, his secrets would be much safer inside his head than outside of it... and Harry wins the battle not by mastering either Occlumency or Legilimency but by doing something Snape does not expect him to do. His intrusion into Snape's mind proves to be much, much worse that any instance of Snape's intrusion into his, which makes even this daredevil of Occlumency to absolutely lose control of his emotions. It is a bitter and dearly paid for victory for Harry but he does get rid of the Occlumency lessons finally.
Orion - Jan 7, 2008 1:50 pm (#2667 of 2970)
But still he's a lousy teacher, isn't he? It's perfectly true what Harry says that Snape doesn't tell him exactly what to do. And if he can monitor Harry's visions, why doesn't he do more about them? Edited for grammar.
Julia H. - Jan 7, 2008 3:06 pm (#2668 of 2970)
You know I'm a teacher and I have been wondering how you can teach something like occlumency. If your student is already good at legilimency, (s)he may be able to look at your mind and see how you do it (not sure though) but here this is not the case. Snape is telling Harry to close his eyes, to empty himself of emotions, to practise before falling asleep, he is telling Harry that he needs discipline - I have the impression that he is telling him as much as he knows about the subject. How can you empty yourself of emotions? That is probably something that you have to discover for yourself. I guess it is like learning swimming when you are afraid of water. You are told what movements to do, you see other people doing it and you still can't keep yourself above the water. If once you manage to do it, however, you know the trick. We don't know how and where Snape learned occlumency but he looks like someone who has learned a lot of things by himself and occlumency is not a subject in Hogwarts. Anyway, what happens in the average Hogwarts classes? Students are told to (for example) make something fly or transfigure something, the teacher shows them how it is done (waving the wand, saying the spell) and then they practise. I never see any other teacher giving half as detailed instructions as Snape does in his occlumency classes.
zelmia - Jan 7, 2008 5:01 pm (#2669 of 2970)
How can you empty yourself of emotions? That is probably something that you have to discover for yourself.
This isn't really meant to be taken literally, I think. What Snape meant for Harry to do was to practice disconnecting from any emotional response a particular mental image might conjure up.
This is the same thing one has to learn for Mediation. The thoughts and feelings will come as they will, at first. But the meditative practice is to not allow them to overtake you and to stay in a restful-yet-wakeful state, until you can actually begin to take control of your mental/spiritual journey.
I think a good example of Snape's point comes from the film Return of the Jedi (Star Wars VI). "Your thoughts betray you" was a refrain in the showdown between Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader, and it was for the very reason that Luke was unable to "empty himself of emotion" about the mental flashes he was getting.
Unfortunately, the pairing of Harry and Snape was never going to work because the the deep-seeded animosity each had for the other.
Julia H. - Jan 8, 2008 12:19 am (#2670 of 2970)
Yes, I like the comparison with Meditation.
Orion - Jan 8, 2008 11:06 am (#2671 of 2970)
Hey, Julia, you're a fellow teacher! Great! I teach music and I found out that in order to tell somebody what to do, you have to think it through in a very detailed way and even things which seemingly work on instinct alone turn out to follow a certain cognitive path - in my (possibly deluded) mind, you can learn everything! You can't learn something, however, if you get insufficient information. (*offtopicalertIknow* What do you teach, Julia?)
Julia H. - Jan 8, 2008 11:37 am (#2672 of 2970)
Orion, you are probably right, but this does not seem to be the general idea behind the magical education at Hogwarts. (Lupin is an exception though, I must admit, but even Snape compares fairly well with the rest of them.) And while I am talking to a music teacher: it did struck me as odd that they never learn music (or arts in general, except for the dark ones) at this school. Music and magic have been long associated with each other after all. Also, if we look at all those problematic children, they seem to be in need of something that has a therapeutic effect on their souls.
(I'm a language teacher.)
zelmia - Jan 8, 2008 11:47 am (#2673 of 2970)
it did struck me as odd that they never learn music - Especially since Dumbledore says in Book 1 "Ah, music. A magic far greater than anything we teach here" (paraphrased). Then no mention is ever made of it again.
Orion - Jan 8, 2008 11:56 am (#2674 of 2970)
Yes, and they don't learn languages either (they do at Beauxbatons and Drumstrang!), or any sports except Quidditch which is only for a select few (and the others can rot in their body fat, or what? - if you look at the stuff they eat all day), no arts (portraits pop up anyway without a painter), no physics (unlike chemistry or maths it isn't represented in another subject), no literature, no geography. Tsk tsk. If I was headmaster there...
Denise P. - Jan 8, 2008 12:29 pm (#2675 of 2970)
You don't consider gobstones a sport? We know Hogwarts had a Gobstone Club in OOP and there is an International Gobstone League. Harry thought about buying a solid gold set so he must have learned to play somewhere.
zelmia - Jan 8, 2008 1:41 pm (#2676 of 2970)
And I would say that Transfiguration and Charms would both qualify under the Physics catagory - particularly at the NEWT level.
There is also some sort of Glee Club, according to the scheduling conflicts brought up by the DA, if I recall correctly. Literature could possibly be accounted for under History of Magic or even Muggle Studies, as could Geography. Though Geography might also be covered during Astronomy.
Julia H. - Jan 8, 2008 3:26 pm (#2677 of 2970)
"or any sports except Quidditch which is only for a select few (and the others can rot in their body fat, or what? - if you look at the stuff they eat all day" (Orion)
That's what all those stairs are for, I guess (and the ban on Apparition).
Orion - Jan 9, 2008 11:14 am (#2678 of 2970)
Julia H. - Jan 17, 2008 12:19 am (#2679 of 2970)
Something about timelines: Has anyone wondered when Snape learned advanced potions making? Harry uses the Prince's book in his sixth year, after the O.W.L.'s, which suggests that Snape studied the same subject in his sixth year as well. But then Harry finds the Levicorpus spell scribbled on the margins in a way that suggests the Prince was designing the spell just then (earlier versions crossed off etc.). However the spell was used against Snape (so it must have already been widely known in the school) in the Worst Memory scene, which took place right after Snape's (and the Marauders') DADA O.W.L. exam. Had Snape read the book before he studied the subject? Or was he writing an improved version of the spell in his book in the sixth year?
zelmia - Jan 17, 2008 12:23 am (#2680 of 2970)
Well, since the textbook had belonged to his mum, he could have practiced those spells at any time.
Julia H. - Jan 17, 2008 12:39 am (#2681 of 2970)
That he means he was reading the book long before he had to study it.
Orion - Jan 17, 2008 7:04 am (#2682 of 2970)
That's a question which bothers me. Where do kids practice potions and when, except during lessons? Do they have practice lessons or free lab periods? Do they have home-potion-kits for the holidays? Are they allowed to use a spare dungeon for blowing things up? Do they have to buy all their own ingredients or are they allowed to use stuff from the school cupboard to experiment with? From what we see in the books, the only practice they get is during lessons, and that is not enough to improve because you have a strict timeline, you're under pressure, you're watched, and you're supposed to do exactly as you're told.
Snape seems to have been some early Fred and George who always blow things up in their bedroom. But he can only have improved in his holidays, or maybe in Slughorn he had a very sympathetic teacher who let him have ingredients from his cupboard - Snape wouldn't have been able to afford his own - and given him free, unwatched lab time. During Harry's Hogwarts years we don't hear about any adventurous experimenting students except Fred and George, and how exactly are they going about it?
zelmia - Jan 17, 2008 12:10 pm (#2683 of 2970)
That he means he was reading the book long before he had to study it. - Right. Which would coincide with the claims that Snape came to Hogwarts knowing more curses than even the upper classmen.
Where do kids practice potions and when, except during lessons? - Well, Harry and Ron don't "practice" their Potions work outside of class time, but that doesn't mean other students aren't down in the Potions dungeon working on forging a better understanding of the material. That said, I think their homework has all been academic over practical (essays and reading rather than actual potion-making).
Also, Potions doesn't seem to have the same prohibitions that spell-casting does outside of school, so anyone would be free to pop in to the apothocary and purchase whatever ingredients they might desire for practice at home during the holidays. I'm not sure I agree that Snape wouldn't have been able to afford his own. Just because he had his mum's old textbook doesn't mean his parents didn't spring for new Potions ingredients when necessary. After all, the Wealeys, with their seven children, were able to manage Potions ingredients for everyone.
Julia H. - Jan 17, 2008 1:00 pm (#2684 of 2970)
Very good questions, Orion. On the one hand, I don't think kids in general experimenting with potions on their own were particularly encouraged: it was probably dangerous and some potions were poisonous, illegal etc. Whatever happened during such experiments, it was clearly the responsibility of the teacher who gave them the permission. On the other hand, I can imagine that in certain cases certain students were allowed (officially or otherwise) by their teacher to use a "lab", even ingredients, to practise or to experiment.
"Which would coincide with the claims that Snape came to Hogwarts knowing more curses than even the upper classmen." (Zelmia)
Well, I don't think he started to use "Advanced Potions Making" quite as early. First he needed to learn the basics of potion-making. However, it is possible that after the first few years, he was advanced enough to understand the post-O.L.W. textbook - and to be interested in it as well. (The notes show that he was not just writing into the book but he was actually studying its contents.) The textbook was not a collection of spells (or curses) in the first place, it contained instructions for potion-making. The spells in the books were handwritten on the margins (just like the improvements in the instructions) and many or most of them were Snape's own inventions - it is not probable that he invented any of them prior to going to Hogwarts. Yet, the fact that he was able to make improvements in an advanced textbook, as well as to invent spells so early suggests that he was an exceptionally talented student.
zelmia - Jan 17, 2008 8:21 pm (#2685 of 2970)
Took this discussion to the Snape Thread, seeing as it's about him.
PeskyPixie - Jan 22, 2008 8:31 pm (#2686 of 2970)
In PS/SS the boa constrictor is said to be sleeping, then "the snake suddenly opened its beady eyes ... It winked."
As far as I know snakes do not have opaque eyelids which 'close' when they sleep, wink or blink. Is this another Hedwig goof? If it is JKR can't use the same excuse this time around as the boa is not a magical creature (although it is a magnificent animal in its own right ).
Orion - Mar 2, 2008 9:50 am (#2687 of 2970)
Animagi must know wandless magic to transform back. They also seem to retain their human minds when they are in animal shape because McGonagall would rather die than let go of her human intelligence, even for a few hours, she'd hate to lose control like that.
Julia H. - Mar 2, 2008 10:03 am (#2688 of 2970)
"They also seem to retain their human minds when they are in animal shape ..." (Orion)
On the one hand, they could hardly transform back without their human intelligence. On the other hand, does not Sirius say that the Dementors did not sense him when he escaped from Azkaban because his feelings were not as complex as that of a human (in human shape)? Same mind, different psyche?
Orion - Mar 2, 2008 11:32 am (#2689 of 2970)
Right! I knew that there was a counter-example somewhere in the books, but I couldn't place it! Isn't McGonagall sitting on a chair in one of her transfiguration lessons in cat shape, or is that movie contamination? And doesn't she sit and wait for DD at the beginning of PS?
I'm a bit Terry Pratchett-contaminated, because he describes werewolves as having a distinctively different perception, they can "see" smells, for example, and their intellect gets fuzzier, but they can still think rationally. But if they would stay very long in animal shape, they would lose their rationality.
Julia H. - Mar 2, 2008 11:50 am (#2690 of 2970)
"Isn't McGonagall sitting on a chair in one of her transfiguration lessons in cat shape, or is that movie contamination?"
She is sitting there in the PS movie but performs an in-class transformation in the POA book (to introduce the concept of animagia to readers).
"And doesn't she sit and wait for DD at the beginning of PS?"
Yes, she does and watches the Dursleys.
I think werewolves are different. They do not retain their human intelligence and that is why Lupin is dangerous. They clearly transform back automatically when their time is up. The effect of the Wolfsbane Potion is to help them keep their human consciousness, so that (I guess) they do not want to kill and they do not injure themselves if they cannot kill.
Orion - Mar 8, 2008 11:52 am (#2691 of 2970)
This is some Hermione-like niggling and nit-picking, but I read an excerpt of a Rowling-interview and "it struck me as odd". It says:
?I?ve been asked what would happen if a muggle would pick up a wand in my world and the answer would probably be something accidental and probably quite violent because the wand in my world is merely a vehicle or vessel of sorts and there is a very close relationship as you know between the wand that each wizard uses and themselves?? (2006)
Impossible, isn't it? Because, if a muggle picked up a wand, there would have to be absolutely... nothing. Because if there was something, even the slightest reaction by the wand, and the tiniest thing happened which wouldn't have happened without the wand, it would also happen if a Squib picked up a wand! That is, a Squib would get results, completely random results but still something.
Julia H. - Mar 8, 2008 1:12 pm (#2692 of 2970)
The limits of interaction between wizards and muggles... Could Hermione's parents visit Hermione at Hogwarts (if it became necessary)? I know muggles cannot see Hogwarts but suppose they are taken there by wizards? I mean they can be taken to Diagon Alley and to Platform 9 3/4 (we see Hermione's parents in these places, don't we?) so perhaps to Hogwarts as well. But we never get to see any Muggle parents there. (Wizarding parents go to the school sometimes.)
Choices - Mar 8, 2008 2:19 pm (#2693 of 2970)
I may be mistaken, but isn't Moaning Myrtle Muggle-born? Her parents came to Hogwarts to claim her body.
zelmia - Mar 8, 2008 3:55 pm (#2694 of 2970)
I think it's probably safe to assume that the parents of Muggle-born students would be given access to Hogwarts if necessary.
I agree with you, Orion, that JKR's remark about the wand doesn't make a lot of sense, since she has also said that the wand is more or less a conduit through which the magical person focuses their energy. A non-magical person is not going to be able to use a wand for anything "magical".
Orion - Mar 9, 2008 6:34 am (#2695 of 2970)
Muggle parents can not see Hogwarts if they stand in front of it, only a ruin. They can not Apparate to it or use the Floo Network or a Portkey. Maybe there are on-off-connections with the Hogwarts express when there is an emergency, so that they can see the castle if they arrive with the Hogwarts train. (That is not very logical.) Maybe Dumbledore or any other authorized person can lift the enchantments (which makes Hogwarts invisible to muggles) in an emergency.
This is also a bit illogical. Does the fact that muggles see only a ruin mean,
a) that Hogwarts is in the real world only a ruin and in the magical world a castle which is habitable only by the extensive use of magic, that is, the whole thing is held up by magic alone? That would explain the ROR - sprout!!! - or Slughorns office - swell!!! - and any other rooms which can change, such as corridors or stairs which change position every few hours.
b) that Hogwarts is a very real castle with only a few liberties concerning size and positions of certain architectural details, and that it is guarded from muggle eyes by a complicated structure of optical deception. (Not only optical - there must be something against children who can't read the signs and wouldn't obey them anyway, or very, very curious trespassers who don't care about a danger sign.)
Choices - Mar 9, 2008 9:36 am (#2696 of 2970)
I'd bet on a combination of both one and two.
zelmia - Mar 9, 2008 1:42 pm (#2697 of 2970)
They can not Apparate to it or use the Floo Network or a Portkey. - Well, there is nothing to suggest that Muggles cannot use either the Floo Network (with a pinch of Floo Powder) or a Portkey. Those are enchanted objects and therefore presumably work for anyone who comes into contact with them. Also, Muggles can Apparate by side-along Apparition, as evidenced by Dedalus Diggle saying that is is what they're going to do with the Dursleys once they have driven far enough away from 4PD do so safely.
Presumably if Muggle parents did need to come to Hogwarts, someone would be sent to fetch them personally, and make the necessary arrangements for them.
PeskyPixie - Mar 13, 2008 7:06 pm (#2698 of 2970)
" ... there must be something against children who can't read the signs and wouldn't obey them anyway, or very, very curious trespassers who don't care about a danger sign." -Orion
That 'something' is the Forbidden Forest and its inhabitants.
Orion - Mar 14, 2008 1:01 pm (#2699 of 2970)
Well, there must be something against children and trespassers stumbling into the Forbidden Forest and getting eaten, because the mortality rate around Hogwarts would eventually get noticed, wouldn't it?
PeskyPixie - Mar 14, 2008 2:53 pm (#2700 of 2970)
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wolf~ears - Mar 15, 2008 7:09 pm (#2701 of 2970)
As always I apologize, being a late comer to this forum, if I ask something that has already been answered or is manifestly obvious (but if the latter someone can explain it to me.)
It struck me as odd that Sirius still has an account in Gringotts and can draw on it to buy Harry a Firebolt after he was condemned to Azkeban for life and by that time is slated to have his soul removed by a dementor. Does the government deprive people of their liberty, sanity, life and soul before depriving them of their property? And despite his status with the goverment, he still inherits what belonged to the Black family. Maybe they were too into their bloodline or primogeniture or something to disinherit him even though he ran away, but do legal penalties not include the loss of property, when they always include something worse?
Swedish Short-Snout - Mar 16, 2008 1:22 am (#2702 of 2970)
Edited by Mar 16, 2008 1:23 am
Pesky, how would memory charms stop people from being eaten?
wolf~ears, I agree that's odd. The Lestranges still had an account too. I don't know how much the Ministry can control Gringotts?
wolf~ears - Mar 16, 2008 8:34 am (#2703 of 2970)
Maybe they can't control Gringotts because Gringotts is run by the goblins, who will simply pursue their own financial interests, which probably includes rich people having big accounts in their bank. Do the goblins own Gringotts, or just operate it?
haymoni - Mar 16, 2008 9:45 am (#2704 of 2970)
I could see the goblins witholding valuable information from wizards on purpose.
I mean, I can see it now, after reading Deathly Hallows.
Orion - Mar 16, 2008 9:50 am (#2705 of 2970)
Gringott's operates like any normal bank with bank secrecy, is that an explanation? And even if somebody is convicted to prison, it does not automatically mean that he or she is robbed of all their possessions. The authorities only confiscate money from mafia dealings, or something like that, and also not everything a person owns. If somebody is convicted for life, their children can still inherit.
haymoni - Mar 16, 2008 2:08 pm (#2706 of 2970)
Yes, but how would a prisoner who just escaped from Azkaban withdraw money?
Bank accounts for missing persons are watched for any activity.
You'd think they'd be looking to see where Sirius Black's gold was going, especially since it bought a broom that was sent to Harry Potter.
wolf~ears - Mar 16, 2008 4:21 pm (#2707 of 2970)
The authorities only confiscate money from mafia dealings, or something like that, and also not everything a person owns. If somebody is convicted for life, their children can still inherit. --Orion
Aren't there criminal penalties that consist of large fines? Or is that only civil suits where someone settles with someone else? (I know that wouldn't mean confiscating everything someone owns, but wouldn't it be an exception to only confiscating stolen money?)
Choices - Mar 16, 2008 5:11 pm (#2708 of 2970)
Perhaps the bank account Sirius had was like a Swiss bank account - only a number was used, not a name. Therefore, the holder of that account was unknown.
LooneyLuna - Mar 16, 2008 5:40 pm (#2709 of 2970)
I could see the goblins not telling the Ministry that money was transferred from the Black's vault for the purchase of the Firebolt. Sirius did the whole transaction via owl order. I'm sure the shop only had the vault number and not the name of the person ordering the item. All they knew was that XXXX amount should be transferred from vault 123 (just an example, I don't know the Black's Vault #) to pay for the broom and that the broom should be delivered to Harry Potter at Hogwarts in time for Christmas.
I think that this somewhat minor transaction wouldn't even cause a blip on the goblin's radar. It was probably just another day at the bank.
Hoot Owl - Mar 16, 2008 8:06 pm (#2710 of 2970)
Page 433 POA, Scholastic Press Hardcover;
" Crookshanks took the order to the Owl Office for me. I used your name but told them to from my own Gringotts vault."
So Sirius just used Harry's name. Perhaps since Harry was his(Sirius) heir, Harry already had access to Sirius's vault. He just didn't know.
zelmia - Mar 16, 2008 8:54 pm (#2711 of 2970)
It's just the same as buying a gift for someone online. That person's name is on it and it's shipped to them, but the billing goes to you.
Obviously, the legal process will vary from country to country, but unless one is in prison for something like embezzlement or other "money" crimes, I don't think it's general practice to prohibit prisoners from regular banking transactions. After all, many people in prison still have a house payment of some sort, families to care for, creditors they owe, etc.
Swedish Short-Snout - Mar 17, 2008 7:22 am (#2712 of 2970)
Obviously, the legal process will vary from country to country, but unless one is in prison for something like embezzlement or other "money" crimes, I don't think it's general practice to prohibit prisoners from regular banking transactions. - zelmia
Yes, but this particular prisoner (Sirius) had just escaped from Azkaban, as haymoni said. It would make sense to temporarily stop all transactions from his account until he was catched.
Perhaps the bank account Sirius had was like a Swiss bank account - only a number was used, not a name. Therefore, the holder of that account was unknown. - Choices
Perhaps. Though Griphook knew which was the Lestranges' vault even though the Trio didn't give him a number.
Anna L. Black - Mar 17, 2008 10:04 am (#2713 of 2970)
Well, the Lestranges' vault was, after all, "one of the most ancient chambers" (Griphook's words, not mine ), and he's also been there to put in the fake sword, which probably wasn't that long ago.
Steve Newton - Mar 17, 2008 10:06 am (#2714 of 2970)
I suspect that the MOM has very little say over Gringotts. The goblins seem to have strict boundaries and what happens in Gringotts stays in Gringotts. After all, the affairs of wand carriers are not their concern.
Julia H. - Mar 17, 2008 10:39 am (#2715 of 2970)
I think the goblins cooperate with wizards and witches only as far as it is in their interest (they run the bank where wizarding humans keep their treasure and they must gain something by that) but they are not controlled by wizards and witches and this must be the reason why the Philosopher's Stone must be transferred from Gringotts to Hogwarts. They may not care too much who the owners of the vaults are and what they are up to.
zelmia - Mar 17, 2008 10:47 am (#2716 of 2970)
So how did Quirrell get into Dumbledore's vault, anyway? I mean, we see first hand in DH to what extent the Goblins protect the vaults and the contents. So how did Quirrell do it?
Swedish Short-Snout - Mar 17, 2008 10:56 am (#2717 of 2970)
Polyjuice himself into a goblin, or Dumbledore? No, seriously, I have no idea.
PeskyPixie - Mar 17, 2008 2:28 pm (#2718 of 2970)
Pesky, how would memory charms stop people from being eaten? -Swedish Short-Snout
Oh, they wouldn't assist in the prevention of Muggles being eaten up at all, but they would help prevent other Muggles from noticing the high mortality rate surrounding Hogwarts which Orion mentioned.
Choices - Mar 18, 2008 11:14 am (#2719 of 2970)
Zelmia - "So how did Quirrell get into Dumbledore's vault, anyway? I mean, we see first hand in DH to what extent the Goblins protect the vaults and the contents. So how did Quirrell do it?"
Quirrell - "When I failed to steal the stone from Gringott's, he was most displeased."
So, I think the answer is that Quirrell did not get into the vault to get the stone. He failed Voldemort and was punished for it by having Voldemort move in, so to speak.
Anna L. Black - Mar 18, 2008 2:09 pm (#2720 of 2970)
But we do know that the vault was broken into, don't we? I don't have the book right now, but that's what I think was written in the Daily Prophet article that Harry read at Hagrid's. Voldemort was angry because the stone wasn't there, not because Quirell failed to get inside... Or is my memory confusing me?
azi - Mar 18, 2008 2:36 pm (#2721 of 2970)
In DH Griphook argues that the vault was on lower security because it was empty. That suggests to me that the thief did manage to gain access to the vault itself.
I think it's in the chapter after Dobby's death. I don't have the book to reference it.
Choices - Mar 18, 2008 5:52 pm (#2722 of 2970)
I do think you're right, Anna. I reread the passage and it appears Quirrell did get into the vault, but the stone wasn't there for him to steal. I was thinking he did not get into the vault, but my memory obviously did not serve me well. LOL
Thom Matheson - May 8, 2008 6:27 am (#2723 of 2970)
Just ran into something odd and funny. While reading DH again, I got to the wedding chapter. At the bottom of the first page the paragraph describing the waiters and the band sitting under a tree relaxing with a blue haze over them smoking a pipe. What's that about? That was a real laugh out loud.
journeymom - May 8, 2008 6:34 am (#2724 of 2970)
I just read that last night. Do wait staff and musicians smoke particularly much?? Lol! Well, I imagine musicians might...
Anna L. Black - May 8, 2008 6:36 am (#2725 of 2970)
My book says: "Harry could see a blue haze of pipe smoke issuing from the spot." Which makes sense, I think. What does your book say?
Orion - May 8, 2008 7:23 am (#2726 of 2970)
Sometimes grey pipe smoke is poetically described as "blue" or "bluish" because it sounds better. But wizards have certainly their own brands of tobacco, or whatever plant they smoke. Professor Sprout might have some in her greenhouse.
journeymom - May 8, 2008 8:18 pm (#2727 of 2970)
It's Longbottom Leaf.
Thom Matheson - May 9, 2008 5:55 am (#2728 of 2970)
or Godric Hallow Gold
Soul Search - May 9, 2008 6:35 am (#2729 of 2970)
I was listening to the "Godric's Hollow" chapter of DH and came to the mention of a "Kissing Gate" leading to the cemetary. I hadn't ever discovered what a "Kissing Gate" was so I looked it up. The result was a bit unexpected.
A "Kissing Gate" is a design that allows people to pass through, one at a time, but not livestock. Wikipedia has a long description and a picture.
That's odd. Why would a cemetary have a gate to prevent livestock to pass through. The cemetary was adjacent to the village, so there would not likely be wandering cows.
My only thought is to prevent people from riding a horse into the cemetary.
I would assume JKR described an actual cemetary. Is it common in Britain to have kissing gates for cemetaries?
azi - May 9, 2008 11:48 am (#2730 of 2970)
I see it as perfectly plausible to have kissing gates to prevent animals from entering the churchyard. Before the enclosures (there've been a few waves of those) a lot of villages had open field systems so animals were able to roam around. Even after the enclosures there was still some common land left where animals could be put by villagers. This was generally in the centre of the village and therefore close to the church. Perhaps it just became tradition to have them even after it wasn't necessary.
I don't know how common it is. I can only think of one church that has a kissing gate. But since I'm up north there might be different traditions to the south.
Soul Search - May 9, 2008 12:43 pm (#2731 of 2970)
Thanks azi. An old cemetary would certainly have been exposed to livestock, even if a village was now nearby. A single example of a cemetary with a kissing gate is enough for me. JKR was, indeed, describing a cemetary she had seen.
Julia H. - May 9, 2008 2:13 pm (#2732 of 2970)
Thanks for this interesting explanation about the Kissing Gate, both of you!
Quinn Crockett - May 22, 2008 4:08 pm (#2733 of 2970)
Regarding "kissing gate" I always assumed it was meant as a sort of point of illustration of how old the church - if not the whole village - are. As in "so old the graveyard still has a kissing gate" kind of thing.
PeskyPixie - Jun 9, 2008 4:20 pm (#2734 of 2970)
Well, this is not too important, but the Marauders are in their thirties during the events of the series and it makes sense that JKR writes that Lupin's face is prematurely lined due to his lycanthropy. Then we have physically healthy Severus Snape, same age as Lupin, and he is also described as having a lined face.
Dryleaves - Jun 10, 2008 12:08 am (#2735 of 2970)
Well, if you keep the same, sour look almost all the time, there will be lines, just as there will be little wrinkles around your eyes if you smile a lot with all your face. Lupin is described as quite young, whereas Snape is not, but I think that is because he doesn't have this air of youth about him, probably due to his bitterness, but I also think Snape is a bit old-fashioned, so that he doesn't act like other people of his age, and therefore might just seem vaguely middle-aged, almost ageless, just grown-up (if anyone can understand what I mean?). That might be why Harry never thinks of him as "prematurely" lined. (And the fact that Harry likes to find faults in Snape's look.)
PeskyPixie - Jun 10, 2008 7:48 am (#2736 of 2970)
But all that grease is supposed to do wonders for moisturizing the skin and preventing wrinkles!
You're right about Severus's lack of youthfulness. He was probably the sternest baby in the world!
Dryleaves - Jun 10, 2008 8:05 am (#2737 of 2970)
But all that grease is supposed to do wonders for moisturizing the skin and preventing wrinkles!
Yeah, but still he insists on putting it in his hair...
PeskyPixie - Jun 10, 2008 9:05 am (#2738 of 2970)
I was assuming that his greasy skin (taunted by Sirius in OotP) carried into adulthood, but now realize that there is no reference to it.
Solitaire - Jun 10, 2008 5:28 pm (#2739 of 2970)
Some people have youthful-looking faces even when they are very old, despite their wrinkles. I have also seen younger people who look much older than their years, whether they have wrinkles or not. Their faces just look old. Actually, both Snape and Lupin have a right to look older than their years, given their respective pasts. Many years of horribly painful werewolf transformations have obviously taken a heavy toll on Lupin's mind and body. Years of deceiving Voldemort and other DEs (Imagine spending time with a charmer like Bella!) must surely have given Snape more than a few wrinkles and grey hairs, not to mention the Wizarding equivalent of an acid stomach!
PeskyPixie - Jun 10, 2008 6:52 pm (#2740 of 2970)
Now that I think of it, after Lily's death Snape is described as a man who has lived a hundred years of misery (though he is only twenty-one at the time). That'll age you.
Still, I don't think he has grey hairs; long, black, greasy and parted in curtains around his thin, sallow face!
Sev needs to brew himself some antacid potion.
Dryleaves - Jun 10, 2008 9:54 pm (#2741 of 2970)
Does Sev ever brew himself anything?
Julia H. - Jun 11, 2008 12:28 am (#2742 of 2970)
I looks as if he never did. I think he could use some luck potion once or twice, he is so unlucky. (And what about that Draught of Peace, "a potion to calm anxiety and soothe agitation"?) When his leg is injured in PS, all we see is that he has Filch (!) treat it (not even Madam Pomfrey) in the Muggle way, when Snape can perfectly well treat other people's injuries with spells or with potions. He does not seem to do anything for himself.
PeskyPixie - Jun 11, 2008 7:24 am (#2743 of 2970)
Snape's treatment of his injury in PS/SS struck me as odd. The only reason I could come up with is that maybe JKR hadn't gotten all that creative with Healing Spells and the like yet.
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 11, 2008 7:36 am (#2744 of 2970)
Bites from magic creatures apparently are not easily healed, even with magic. Ron also had trouble with the dragon bite in PS/SS, and St. Mungo's had several people with bite wounds in OotP. In HBP, the wounds from Fenrir's attack on Bill could not be just healed away even though it wasn't the full moon. There is just something about creatures that prevent magic healing. Actually, I thought the odd one was Hermione healing Harry's Nagini bite so quickly in DH.
Julia H. - Jun 11, 2008 8:02 am (#2745 of 2970)
Bites from magic creatures apparently are not easily healed, even with magic.
But then it is even more strange to have it treated by Filch. If these wounds can hardly be healed with magic, muggle methods are not likely to be any good at all. (Remember the stitches used on Arthur's wound?) Snape just does not care about himself enough to go as far as the Hospital Wing.
PeskyPixie - Jun 11, 2008 8:13 am (#2746 of 2970)
He's a goanna!
Choices - Jun 11, 2008 8:40 am (#2747 of 2970)
Julia - "But then it is even more strange to have it treated by Filch."
I don't think Filch did any of the treatment. He was just there to hand Snape things he needed - like bandages, etc.
Orion - Jun 11, 2008 8:44 am (#2748 of 2970)
Pesky, what is a goanna? It always bothered me that Snape was treated by Filch and didn't go to Madame Pomfrey, or if it was something Poppy couldn't do, straight to St Mungo's, and I'd been wanting to post about that for ages. The only explanation which makes sense for me is Snape's desire for secrecy - he doesn't want to explain to Poppy what he had to do with a gigantic three-headed dog - what if she wasn't in on the secret? ("What bit you?" "Um, er, a blast-ended screwt." "What? Impossible.") She would know that it wasn't a bite wound of some common magical creature. St Mungo's would have been suspicious, too. But why was Filch to be trusted? Because he didn't have a clue about magical creatures and wouldn't ask awkward questions.
On the other hand, the author had to show the reader Snape's atrocious wound and to make sure Harry saw it, too. So she had to create a situation in which we and Harry could see it. It's completely ludicrous, obviously, because Snape would have gone to his private office and locked the door behind him and Filch, instead of going to the !!!staff room!!! How probable is that?
Choices - Jun 11, 2008 8:47 am (#2749 of 2970)
Orion - I may be wrong, but I think Pesky means a "goner".
PeskyPixie - Jun 11, 2008 9:11 am (#2750 of 2970)
LOL, I wrote in a rush and forgot to clarify.
Steve Irwin always respected the way animals (he used goannas as examples) heal their wounds and illnesses. They don't complain and make a fuss over things and keep ploughing on until they are healed by nature. Irwin used to try to take the same approach to his own injuries and heal himself like a goanna! His family would have to force him to get medical attention.
Oh, goannas are a type of Australian monitor lizard. They're lovely.
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Julia H. - Jun 11, 2008 9:16 am (#2751 of 2970)
Pesky, what is a goanna? (Orion)
I may be wrong, but I think Pesky means a "goner". (Choices)
LOL, I actually looked up this: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] There is something about goannas being allegedly immune to snake venom.
OK, treating may not be the best word but then Snape was treating his wound himself with Filch assisting. That makes more sense in fact...it is just that the scene strikes me as describing only the most basic kind of treatment, especially with Filch as assistant and in such a place, really, as the staff room (like where Snape just happened to be). It is as if Snape did not like spending precious time on such things besides what was absolutely necessary.
EDIT: Cross-posted with Pesky! I guess I also wanted to say "Snape is a goanna", only I expressed it differently!
Orion - Jun 11, 2008 9:20 am (#2752 of 2970)
LOL they are totally ugly, they look like something Hagrid would fuss about. Thanks for the link, Pesky.
PeskyPixie - Jun 11, 2008 9:21 am (#2753 of 2970)
The link is from Julia, but, you're welcome, Orion! The goanna sends you a kiss!
Solitaire - Jun 11, 2008 3:13 pm (#2754 of 2970)
That goanna looks like the thing I saw coming up the street towards me a few years back. It scared the **** out of me!!! I was walking back from the mailbox around the corner, and I looked up and saw this thing that looked like an alligator walking in the gutter about half a block away. I ran across the street to get away from it and was relieved that it didn't follow. Once it was past, I ran back to my house and shut the garage door. Then I pulled Quinn and Stoney inside and called animal control. It was about a minute before 5 p.m. on an extremely hot Friday, and I wasn't sure I'd get them ... but I did. I told them I'd seen a HUGE lizard that looked like a brownish alligator, walking in the street. The lady asked how big it was, and I told her I couldn't be sure, since I had "reptile issues," but I thought it was about 4 feet long.
There was a lot of trouble getting someone out here to get that thing. When it went around the corner, it apparently went into someone's yard, got under the back fence, and wound up in the back yard of my neighbor 2 doors to the east of me. He heard all this barking from his Chow and went out to look. He said it was on the other side of the pool, against the fence. He called the cops, who came to check but refused to touch it. They called animal control to come out and get it ... and they called for reinforcements. Turns out it was closer to 5 feet. The guys on the street said that the animal control people thought it might be a monitor lizard. I thought it might be a Komodo Dragon, but I can't imagine anyone being stupid enough to bring one of those into an area like this. Maybe it was a goanna!
We never figured out who owned it, but I thought maybe it was against the law to own whatever it was.
Julia H. - Jun 11, 2008 3:26 pm (#2755 of 2970)
According to Wikipedia "goanna" is another name for a monitor lizard. Solitaire, that is a scary experience!!! Something like that just walking the street where you live...
PeskyPixie - Jun 11, 2008 4:20 pm (#2756 of 2970)
Actually 'goanna' does not refer to all monitor lizards. ( Sorry if I've come off a tad Hermioneish. )
Soli, that is very scary. We used to get wolves and coyotes around here but with all the human developments they've disappeared. The weirdest thing we ever encountered was a HUGE turtle while out walking. I thought it was a discarded lawn ornament until it blinked.
Choices - Jun 11, 2008 4:51 pm (#2757 of 2970)
ROFL - Ohhhhh, a "goanna" - that critter Steve Irwin always talked about. My mistake - darn pain pills. LOL ;-)
PeskyPixie - Jun 11, 2008 7:06 pm (#2758 of 2970)
LOL, we are so off topic, but at least we're posting about things we find odd!
Julia H. - Jun 13, 2008 2:36 pm (#2759 of 2970)
I thought it was a discarded lawn ornament until it blinked. (Pesky)
Solitaire - Jun 14, 2008 9:22 am (#2760 of 2970)
I do not know where to put this question, so I thought I'd stick it here. Please move it to the proper thread, if necessary ... or point me to the answer, if you can.
Last week I reread PoA, and something puzzled me. I'd forgotten about it, though, until a post on a different thread made me remember it. Here is my question: Is a wand needed to transform into an Animagus form? Sirius doesn't seem to have used one in Azkaban when he transformed into Padfoot. Peter, on the other hand, does seem to have used one to transform into Wormtail when he was escaping ... or was he just grabbing the wand so that he would have a wand with him, if he needed it?
azi - Jun 14, 2008 9:32 am (#2761 of 2970)
Hmm, interesting point Soli. I like your 'Wormtail needing a wand later' idea. Peter wouldn't have got to Albania if he hadn't had a wand. Another possibility is that Sirius is a much more powerful wizard than Peter and therefore doesn't require a wand to transform. We've never been told much about wandless magic (which is a shame) so it's difficult to know whether wandless transformation is common or not.
PeskyPixie - Jun 14, 2008 9:35 am (#2762 of 2970)
I'm really confused about this as well. I'll try to post my thoughts on it once I've thought it out a bit.
Solitaire - Jun 14, 2008 9:51 am (#2763 of 2970)
Azi, I thought we had a thread on wandless magic once, but I couldn't find it. I'm sure, too, that we discussed this very issue, although I cannot remember reaching any resolution. I would like to review what we said, though. I just can't find the discussion. I'm wondering if it is one of the characters' threads? I know a lot of older threads have been archived ...
Hieronymus Graubart - Jun 14, 2008 10:27 am (#2764 of 2970)
Didn't Pettigrew grab the wand to stun Ron and Crookshanks? And didn't Harry disarm Pettigrew before Pettigrew transformed into Wormtail? Or is this only the german version?
haymoni - Jun 14, 2008 11:47 am (#2765 of 2970)
I think you are right - Harry disarmed him.
I blame this blasted movie contamination.
I just finished reading POA with my daughter and I wondered how Sirius got on without a wand after escaping. Jo makes no reference to him having a wand. No wonder he had to eat rats!
Julia H. - Jun 14, 2008 12:09 pm (#2766 of 2970)
He must have done lots of things in the muggle way. But at least he was able to transform.
Actually, it seems, wand-magic may be changed into wandless magic if the wizard is powerful and/or determined (desperate) enough. This is suggested (IMO) by the fact that the dying Snape extracts his memories without using a wand, although earlier, everybody (i.e. Snape, DD, Slughorn) seems to use a wand to do that. IMO, the wizard/witch is more important than the wand and perhaps wands only make it easier to do magic, to concentrate magical power on something - although most wizards/witches do not seem to know this.
Solitaire - Jun 14, 2008 12:20 pm (#2767 of 2970)
Hieronymus, you're right. For some reason, though, I thought he also used the wand to transform ... and I haven't watched PoA for at least a year. I guess I just misread or misinterpreted it.
Choices - Jun 14, 2008 4:39 pm (#2768 of 2970)
If I remember correctly, in the movie Peter picks up the wand and is getting ready to use it on Sirius or Lupin, but he is disarmed and then transforms and escapes.
In the book, Peter dives for Lupin's dropped wand. He stuns Ron and then stuns Crookshanks. Harry uses Expelliarmus to disarm Peter. Harry yells at Peter to stay where he is, but too late - Peter transforms and escapes.
PeskyPixie - Jun 14, 2008 5:45 pm (#2769 of 2970)
I thought that in the movie Pettigrew picks up the wand and points it at himself (evilly grinning at HRH), he is Disarmed, (ooh, the mounting suspense) but he has already cast the animagus spell and shrivels into a rat and flees.
Solitaire - Jun 14, 2008 7:27 pm (#2770 of 2970)
Pesky, I think that's how I interpreted it even before I saw the movie--that he'd already cast the spell by the time he was disarmed.
haymoni - Jun 14, 2008 8:32 pm (#2771 of 2970)
Sirius does't use a wand to transform back and forth. Granted, he was better than Peter at magic but I just didn't get that Peter used a wand to transform.
Orion - Jun 14, 2008 11:29 pm (#2772 of 2970)
You can't have to use a wand to transform because most animals don't have thumbs. So if you needed a wand to transform you could never transform back to human shape. And if the wand is only needed for the one way spell and you don't need a wand for the return spell then there is a logical hole, because it must be pretty much the same spell both ways.
Julia H. - Jun 15, 2008 12:30 am (#2773 of 2970)
Well reasoned, Orion.
Vox Gerbilis - Jun 15, 2008 5:02 am (#2774 of 2970)
At some point, when there was a discussion (can't remember which board) about how Voldemort got his wand back, there was a conclusion that Wormtail had been keeping it with him. I believe it was also inferred that when an animagus transforms to animal form, he somehow keeps with him his clothes and any items he was carrying, although these are not visible.* Thus, Wormtail was carrying Voldemort's wand throughout his Scabbers years. So, could he have used Voldemort's wand if he needed it for the transformation or any other purpose? Or would he have been too frightened to use the Dark Lord's wand?
Of, if he could carry Voldemort's wand with him all these years, might he have been carying his own wand as well?
If this is the case, why was Vernon able to see the map that McGonagall was reading in her cat form?
Choices - Jun 15, 2008 8:21 am (#2775 of 2970)
We had this discussion on another thread a while back - I think if you watch the movie version you can also interpret Peter's action as not pointing the wand at himself, but simply drawing the wand back to then flick it forward at Sirius/Lupin to cast a spell on them. He draws the wand back as if he is using a fly rod to cast for fish in a river. I think this is the most logical conclusion as in the book there is no indication he uses the wand on himself to transform. No where in the books do we see an animagus use a wand to accomplish a transformation.....at least none I can remember.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 15, 2008 10:50 am (#2776 of 2970)
Unfortunately, any definitive answer on the subject is not given by the author when she could have.
[Harry] hardly heard what Professor McGonagall was telling them about Animagi (wizards who could transform at will into animals), and wasn't even watching when she transformed herself in front of their eyes into a tabby cat with spectacle markings around her eyes. (PA ch. 6)
So, here was JKR's chance to tell us precisely how the transformation is done, but she doesn't. My own opinion is that it doesn't make much sense to require a wand to transform (as Orion points out).
Solitaire - Jun 15, 2008 6:00 pm (#2777 of 2970)
Okay, here's something else I never noticed before. I just finished my GoF reread this afternoon and noticed the scene in the hospital wing when DD tells Sirius "to alert Remus Lupin, Arabella Figg, Mundungus Fletcher--the old crowd." Given Harry's curiosity, I'm surprised he didn't ask why Arabella Figg would need contacting, since Figg is kind of an unusual name. I guess he was too groggy from the potion and upset by the events of the evening for it to register. However, it seems odd that he didn't flash back to Dumbledore mentioning her name when he learns about her during the Dementor incident. Remember how he kept remembering he'd heard the name Nicholas Flamel before? All summer when he was mulling over everything had happened that terrible night (I've just started my OotP reread), I was surprised that he did not think about why Dumbledore would know Mrs. Figg. I wonder why I didn't notice this before ...
Quinn Crockett - Jun 15, 2008 7:14 pm (#2778 of 2970)
Solitaire, I think it's reasonable that Harry wouldn't immediately make any connection between anyone he knew from his Privet Drive days and the Wizarding World. Personally, I would have found it suspicious if he had automatically assumed Dumbledore had been referring to "Mrs Figg". But I agree with you that it was a bit "thick" of Harry not to have realized when she "came out" to him after the dementor attack.
Solitaire - Jun 16, 2008 9:06 am (#2779 of 2970)
Quinn, it's just that Harry is usually so nosy that it surprised me! LOL
Dryleaves - Jun 16, 2008 11:57 pm (#2780 of 2970)
I just wonder about the "pre-Marauder" generation, that is Harry's grandparents and others. When Harry is left to the Dursleys I understand it as if they are the only relatives he has got. But James and Lily are very young when they die, only in their early twenties, and it strikes me as odd that both parents of the both of them would be dead. The same goes for the parents of Sirius and of Snape. They are in their mid-thirties, but seem to have no parents still alive. That is maybe not that unusual, but I just think it is strange that so many of this earlier generation seem to have died so relatively early. Now the "Marauder-generation" didn't live that long either, so maybe their parents died from the same cause as they did, the war?
Orion - Jun 17, 2008 4:41 am (#2781 of 2970)
Rowling said that James' parents were elderly and died of natural causes, and that she had to kill of all of the grandparents for plot reasons. It always struck me as odd, too. They don't have any brothers or sisters, either, no aunts or uncles, nobody. There are people like that, who have nobody, but it always bothered me. It leaves the backdrop empty, like in a child's drawing when the blue doesn't go down to the bottom.
Solitaire - Jun 17, 2008 10:10 am (#2782 of 2970)
I'm reading OotP right now, and I think Sirius says his mother died ten years ago (from that point), although he does not say she was killed, if I recall correctly. I'll reread that section. It's odd that both Orion and Walburga Black were relatively young--50 and 60, respectively--when they died. Orion, who died in 1979, could have been murdered in the first Voldy war. Walburga, however, died in '85. Hadn't things calmed down by then? Of course, I suppose that being cooped up with Kreacher and grieving for Regulus could have caused her to waste away.
Did we ever find out if Dorea and Charlus were James's folks? They have one son, although his name and birth/death dates are not listed on the tapestry. Dorea is 9 years older than Orion and 5 years older than Walburga, and her death is listed as 1977, which would put it during Voldy's rise to power. What makes it uncertain that these are James's parents is the fact that they died a year before he graduated from Hogwarts. In OotP, Sirius clearly says that, even after he left school and got his own place, he "was always welcome at Mr. and Mrs. Potter's for Sunday lunch ..." That sounds like they were still alive after James and Sirius graduated, which means either they are not James's parents ... or Jo got the dates wrong. Either way, I would hardly call 57 elderly, particularly in the Wizarding World! If they were truly elderly by Wizard standards, like over 100 or something, it's understandable that they were not around for Harry.
As to the Evanses ... I suppose Lily and Petunia could have been late-life babies. This would still have their parents dying before age 70, most likely ... but it's possible, I guess.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 17, 2008 1:13 pm (#2783 of 2970)
We have examples from DH of "random" people being killed on behalf of Voldemort. The Dementors, especially, appear to influence seemingly unconnected events (hurricane, etc) that kill indiscriminately. We could fanwank that something along these lines might have happened to the Evanses or anyone else.
With the Blacks, I would say that in a family as mentally unbalanced as many of them seem to have been (in-breeding perhaps?), there would surely have been numerous other health issues that could have shortened their lives. But I don't think it's unreasonable to fanwank that la Mère Black might have let herself go completely. Both her sons were dead, for all intents and purposes.
Regarding "the Marauder Generation": I'm not sure about Snape's parents. Maybe Tobias finally killed Eileen and then simply disappeared into the Muggle world. We know that Wormtail's mother, at least, was still alive up until he went into hiding. We don't know one way or the other about Lupin's parents. Presumably they are dead, but we're never actually told that they are.
Solitaire - Jun 17, 2008 2:36 pm (#2784 of 2970)
As others have said, I think the parents' deaths are not really addressed, because they do not affect the story, other than the fact that Harry has to live with the Dursleys instead of either Muggle or Wizard grandparents. And either set of them would have loved and cherished him, just as they did James and Lily, so Harry's early life would have been very different. Their absence forces him to live a life of misery until he is 11.
Vox Gerbilis - Jun 17, 2008 4:11 pm (#2785 of 2970)
I don't think we can make any inferences about Snape's parents. Even at age 11, he was eager to go to school and get away from them, and it's entirely possible that the estrangement deepened and never resolved. I can easily imagine Snape feeling such contempt for his Muggle father and for his mother's involvement with him that he didn't want anything to do with them. I also can imagine that his double agent status would further discourage him from trying to build bridges, lest they became endangered.
But it is odd that the Potters seem to be entirely extinguished.
Choices - Jun 17, 2008 4:36 pm (#2786 of 2970)
I always thought it odd that Orion and Regulus died in the same year and have often wondered if the deaths were somehow connected.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 17, 2008 6:04 pm (#2787 of 2970)
What I find even odder (is that a word?) is that not one person ever mentions to Harry that Snape and his mother had once been close friends. Even Slughorn, who in my opinion would have been the most likely to have had occasion to mention this, never does.
Granted, the author chose to do this specifically for the big Prince's Tale reveal. However, I have since found it extremely glaring that it never once came up prior to that, even if only to have Harry dismiss such an idea out of hand.
Holly T. - Jun 17, 2008 6:50 pm (#2788 of 2970)
Didn't the students have to be pretty far along in school to be part of the Slug Club? And by then Lily and Snape weren't associating so much. Plus I doubt Snape was part of the Slug Club.
Solitaire - Jun 17, 2008 10:21 pm (#2789 of 2970)
In the nether reaches of my memory, I seem to recall Jo saying that something happened in the PoA movie which was not in the book, but which foreshadowed something we would learn in the last book. Remember the conversation Remus and Harry have on that bridge on one of the days he is not able to go to Hogsmeade? Remus tells Harry something about Lily reaching out to, or being able to see something special in a kid who was sort of an outcast. (Sorry, my DVD player is pffft! or I'd check the exact words.) I'd always assumed he was talking about himself, but I remembered that scene when I read DH. I got to wondering ... maybe Remus knew about Lily and Snape's friendship. Just speculation ...
Dryleaves - Jun 17, 2008 11:17 pm (#2790 of 2970)
Solitaire, I also remembered that scene when I read DH. It is something about that she could see something to like in a person when noone else could see it. I think JKR have said somewhere that the friendship between Snape and Lily was known, and I too find it odd that nobody ever mentions it to Harry. For example I would think Lupin would have mentioned it. Maybe the enmity between Snape and the Marauders made them try to forget about it. But the main reason to omit it is of course to save it for the final revelation.
Regarding Snape's parents I assumed they where dead as he lives at Spinner's End, at least in the beginning of HBP. It just seems strange that they should have moved and he had taken over that place.
Julia H. - Jun 18, 2008 2:13 am (#2791 of 2970)
What Remus tells Harry about his mother seeing something good or beautiful even in someone who could not see it in himself could be about Snape. However the way Lupin says it in the movie, seems to imply that he is talking about himself rather than about Snape he still heavily dislikes. This, however, is not confirmed in DH - nothing indicates that Lily was especially encouraging towards Remus, only that she did not know that he was a werewolf.
The Marauders must have known about the friendship between Lily and Snape - well, they never told Harry. For Slughorn, I'm not sure, although if Slytherins and Gryffindors were at the time together in Potions classes, Snape and Lily may have sat together at the same desk for years in his classes. Two very good potion-makers from these two houses... Slughorn may have noticed. Then again, we may just want to think (for JKR's sake ) that these people noticed that there might have been more than just friendship (on Snape's part at least) and then they were toooooo considerate towards Harry (the Marauders) or towards Snape (Slughorn) to speak about this.
Snape's Slytherin house-mates may have known about the friendship as well but no word of this ever seems to have reached Voldemort.
BTW, the most conspicuous moment in the PoA movie which is different in the book is Snape shielding Harry (and friends) from werewolf Lupin. This may foreshadow what we learn about Snape's promise to protect Harry in DH. Of course, he protects him in other places in the books but maybe the idea in the movie that Snape shields Harry from danger with his own body may refer to the fact that Snape is protecting Harry for Lily's sake, who - as we know - also shielded Harry with her own body and life. I wonder if JKR considered this version originally for the book or whether it only occurred to her in connection with the movie.
Like Dryleaves, I also assumed that Snape's parents were dead rather than just having moved out of Spinner's End - unless he moved them out of harm's way when Voldemort was about to return in a way Hermione moved her own parents so that, as an agent knowing lots of secrets, he should have no relations who could be taken hostage.
Quinn Crockett - Jun 18, 2008 11:08 am (#2792 of 2970)
in the movie that Snape shields Harry from danger with his own body - Julia
I kind of always thought this might be what JKR was referring to when she talked about her astonishment at seeing something that no one could possibly have known foreshadowing something later in the saga.
Choices - Jun 18, 2008 3:14 pm (#2793 of 2970)
Julia H - "BTW, the most conspicuous moment in the PoA movie which is different in the book is Snape shielding Harry (and friends) from werewolf Lupin. This may foreshadow what we learn about Snape's promise to protect Harry in DH. Of course, he protects him in other places in the books but maybe the idea in the movie that Snape shields Harry from danger with his own body may refer to the fact that Snape is protecting Harry for Lily's sake, who - as we know - also shielded Harry with her own body and life."
This was also my guess for what surprised JKR when she saw it in the movie - something that was not in the book.
Richard White - Jul 1, 2008 6:30 am (#2794 of 2970)
Bear in mind that Snape was no coward (though this isn't stated explicitly until Hallows). Despite all his venom (no pun), he was a man of remarkable courage. Had he not put himself between the werewolf and the children it would have been cowardly, and cowardice was not in his nature.
To me this was a revealing moment. I had concluded by the end of GoF that Snape was the most interesting character in the story and guessed that he would somehow play a crucial role in V's defeat.
Julia H. - Jul 13, 2008 8:46 am (#2795 of 2970)
Had he not put himself between the werewolf and the children it would have been cowardly, and cowardice was not in his nature. (Richard White)
Of course. But this is why the movie after that moment is not totally logical. Harry runs away, the dementors come and Snape (according to the logic of the books at least) should do something. Book-Snape would not stop after shielding the children from the werewolf when there are more dangers. But of course, it was essential to put the stag patronus and other things into the movie, so they just left Snape where he was.
PeskyPixie - Jul 13, 2008 12:50 pm (#2796 of 2970)
Snape needed to be knocked out in this scene! A brave Dark Arts specialist (especially one who has sworn to protect the Chosen One) like our beloved Potions Master would savour the chance of getting to handle a werewolf of his very own!
rassannassar - Jul 27, 2008 8:53 pm (#2797 of 2970)
I agree. I think that Severus Snape is probably the one of the most interesting and complex characters in the series.
One thing I never understood is how Charlie Weasley knew of the Battle at Hogwarts. The books says quite clearly (and I'm paraphrasing) that Charlie ran up into the fight past Slughorn when all the people of Hogsmeade came up into the fight. This was after Harry and King's Cross. I just don't understand how word got to Romania that fast that he was able to make it there.
I also don't understand the constraints on Apparition. Is there a limit to how far away you can be before you can no longer do it? There was more than one occasion where Harry saw into Voldemort's mind and knew that it would only be a matter of time before he would be close enough to Apparate.
PeskyPixie - Jul 28, 2008 6:58 am (#2798 of 2970)
I also wonder why Macnair uses an axe to destroy dangerous creatures when an AK will do? Perhaps he like the gory nature of Muggle beheadings?
Solitaire - Jul 28, 2008 7:56 am (#2799 of 2970)
I think there's probably some blood-lust there.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 29, 2008 11:26 am (#2800 of 2970)
That, and no doubt the Ministry require proof that the execution took place; that the sentence was actually carried out, if you will.
Personally, I sort of assumed that Charlie was no longer in Romania at that point; that once things really started to get bad for his family (having to go into hiding), he returned to England either to be with or near them. With this in mind, Charlie may have actually been living in Hogsmeade at the time.
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Orion - Jul 29, 2008 11:36 am (#2801 of 2970)
"One thing I never understood is how Charlie Weasley knew of the Battle at Hogwarts. The books says quite clearly (and I'm paraphrasing) that Charlie ran up into the fight past Slughorn when all the people of Hogsmeade came up into the fight. This was after Harry and King's Cross. I just don't understand how word got to Romania that fast that he was able to make it there." (rassannassar)
I don't understand the whole scene in which the students are evacuated through Aberforth's pub. They can't Disapparate because of the DEs' spell, and most of the students won't have passed their tests yet anyway. They must be collected by their parents, but then I don't understand how they are contacted, and how they are getting there. Floo? (I guess the anti-Disapparition-jinx extends into the pub as well.) Charlie is only one example. The twins?
That is one of the biggest DH mysteries for me.
Solitaire - Jul 29, 2008 3:37 pm (#2802 of 2970)
The way Fred talked, everyone was Apparating directly into the Hog's Head ("... his bar's turned into a railway station" Ch. 29). And Harry tells McGonagall (Ch. 30), "... if Voldemort and the Death Eaters are concentrating on the school boundaries they won't be interested in anyone who's Disapparating out of the Hog's Head." It sounds to me as though the charm does not cover the interior of the bar.
As to how Charlie got there so soon, isn't it possible that he'd already started back from Romania once he learned that all of his family had gone into hiding, or was he back for the wedding? I can't remember. Perhaps he got worried when he didn't hear from any of them.
Choices - Jul 29, 2008 5:06 pm (#2803 of 2970)
Seems those owls can travel pretty fast with messages - remember when Dobby did magic at the Dursley's house? Harry had that letter from the Malfalda Hopkirk at the MOM in just a few minutes.
rassannassar - Jul 29, 2008 9:09 pm (#2804 of 2970)
That is odd too. The Ministry owls are ridiculously fast. Although it could be that they use magic to get them close by and then the owls only actually take it a short distance, kind of like how Dumbledore sent Harry's things, Hedwig included, ahead to the Burrow.
I think that if Charlie had been in England since his family went into hiding, he would have showed up with the rest of them, don't you?
And as an answer to the Hog's Head question, maybe they turned some things into Portkeys?
Solitaire - Jul 29, 2008 9:32 pm (#2805 of 2970)
I think that if Charlie had been in England since his family went into hiding, he would have showed up with the rest of them, don't you?
Perhaps he headed back when he heard they'd gone into hiding. Maybe he didn't hear it right away. Perhaps he simply heard that they were not around ... or maybe he heard Ron's name bandied around with Harry's and Hermione's. All three of them were "wanted." Maybe he heard about their having escaped from Gringotts on a dragon!
Remember that not all of the family were staying together in one place, so there are any number of reasons he could be in the country but not with them at that moment.
rassannassar - Jul 29, 2008 9:46 pm (#2806 of 2970)
As far as we know, the only members of the family that weren't at Muriel's was Bill, Ron, and Charlie. The rest of them were together.
EDIT: And Percy
Solitaire - Jul 30, 2008 8:25 am (#2807 of 2970)
Charlie may not have known that the family were at Auntie Muriel's house. What I'm saying is that some of the crazy reports he may have been getting could have prompted him to go and check things out for himself. He may have gone to his aunt's and learned that everyone had headed for Hogwarts.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 30, 2008 9:00 pm (#2808 of 2970)
My own version is that Charlie was living in Hogsmeade, the only member of the Order apart from Aberforth there so he could be close to Hogwarts - and his little sister, while she was still there - if he was needed.
Solitaire - Jul 30, 2008 9:08 pm (#2809 of 2970)
It could very well be.
John Bumbledore - Jul 31, 2008 12:55 pm (#2810 of 2970)
A member of the Order could have sent out a patronus message to Charlie. Those are faster than owls and secure from both interceptions or forgery. Then a portkey would seem perferable for long distance travel, as was done for the quiddich world cup.
I guess it depends on how fast magic can travel.
Solitaire - Jul 31, 2008 4:10 pm (#2811 of 2970)
Those are faster than owls and secure from both interceptions or forgery.
Fast, yes, but are they secure? Remember Mr. Weasley's Patronus: Family safe, do not reply, we are being watched. Why wouldn't they want a reply? I mean it's obvious that a stag Patronus would be known to be Harry's, but what about Ron or Hermione? Is there a way to trace where a Patronus originated? Just wondering ...
Choices - Jul 31, 2008 5:23 pm (#2812 of 2970)
A reply would call attention to them - it isn't the means of the reply, but the reply itself. Any sign or message might tip off the MOM as to their location and reveal that others knew where they were and were perhaps suppling them with information.
Portkeys have to be authorized by the MOM. I believe Dumbledore was one of the few (if not the only wizard) who dared to send people by unauthorized portkeys. Do you think Charlie is a powerful enough wizard to create his own portkey - would he have trusted the MOM enough to ask for one? I really don't think so. I think he must have traveled by other means.
Solitaire - Jul 31, 2008 5:46 pm (#2813 of 2970)
Re the Portkey: I do not think it is an issue of power to set up one ... it is the Ministry hassle if you're caught. Remember Remus's comment when the Advance Guard came to fetch Harry in OotP: "It's more than our life's worth to set up an unauthorized Portkey." They feared being traced, so Portkeys must trigger some sort of alarm or something in the Ministry. Then again, what about all of those Portkeys used in DH? How is it the Ministry couldn't trace them? My brain hurts.
Mrs Brisbee - Jul 31, 2008 6:33 pm (#2814 of 2970)
I suspect many witches and wizards would have heard about the ongoing battle via the WWN. News could have reached Charlie even if he was abroad very quickly by radio.
Quinn Crockett - Jul 31, 2008 9:42 pm (#2815 of 2970)
Edited Jul 31, 2008 11:30 pm
Well, maybe he flew on one of his dragons. We saw the Trio make quite a rapid distance on the back of one. Still, I just find it very hard to believe that, in such a close family like the Weasleys, where Molly and Arthur regularly went to visit Charlie, that Charlie would not have come home once he knew his family's lives were in danger.
ETA: Yes, Charlie did stand up for Bill at the wedding. So I think it far more likely that he never went back to Romania, seeing as how his entire family (minus Percy) could have easily been wiped out in that one fell swoop of an ambush. Knowing what we know of the Weasleys, I think he would have stuck around after that.
Hoot Owl - Jul 31, 2008 10:13 pm (#2816 of 2970)
The last we saw of Charlie he was standing up for Bill at the wedding. He probably returned to Romania after the DE/MoM released the wedding party. Unless he was visiting the Burrow at Easter time, when Ron was caught, he would have stayed at the Dragon Reserve or gone underground there.
The whole Battle of Hogwarts scenario got started when Neville sent messages to Ginny and Luna that Harry was back and they were going to fight! Wether they passed on the massage or if the DA alumni just checked their coins, the word got out. Luna at least told Dean and since they were at Shell Cottage Bill and Fluer. Ginny talked the twins into taking her to Hogsmead. All were members of the Order they must have contacted other members. This might have included the overseas chapters.
Charlie might have gone to the Rumanian MoM for transport or broom until within apperating range and then onto the Hogshead.
Solitaire - Aug 1, 2008 3:53 am (#2817 of 2970)
Actually, given what happened at the reception, I'm inclined to agree with Quinn that Charlie may have remained in England. Or, if he did go back, perhaps it was only to round up more support against Voldemort and head back to England. I can't see him just heading back to Romania to work after an event like that. He obviously knows Ron is gone and the rest of the family are in danger.
Choices - Aug 1, 2008 2:58 pm (#2818 of 2970)
I actually didn't mean "powerful" enough to create a portkey, but powerful enough to weasel his way out of going to Azkaban if he got caught. LOL
tandaradei - Aug 1, 2008 7:39 pm (#2819 of 2970)
...[cut]... Portkeys have to be authorized by the MOM....[cut]...
If this is the case, that could explain how owl and Dementors even, get to Privet drive so quickly ? especially if they were authorized by some MOM employee. (I.e., have an owl touch an old boot to some ?safe point,? where it would fly to the house, etc.)
Solitaire - Aug 1, 2008 7:56 pm (#2820 of 2970)
Well, tandaradei, we know how the Dementors happened to be in Little Whinging. They were sent there by Umbridge. I rather doubt she sent them in a second. I suspect they'd been lurking around to catch Harry in an unguarded moment. About the owls ... remember that, in Harry's hearing, Madam Bones said, "That situation has always been closely monitored, given ... given past events."
We now know that there is a magical trace that detects immediately--at least, in Harry's case--when underage magic is performed. I believe the owls are sent to Privet the same way Dumbledore sent Hedwig to the Burrow--with a charm of some sort that instantaneously transports. I believe it makes more sense than having an owl touch a portkey, especially if the owls are as quick to reach other destinations as they are 4PD. Another possibility is that owls do a form of "apparation" to the address on the letter they bear ... assuming it has an address.
Michael Franz - Aug 2, 2008 3:14 pm (#2821 of 2970)
We now know that there is a magical trace that detects immediately--at least, in Harry's case--when underage magic is performed.
But, apparently, not in Tom Riddle's case. Dumbledore explains that the MoM didn't detect his manipulation of Morfin because he was in a wizarding house at the time ? but when he whacked his Muggle family, there wasn't another wizard in sight. How can Mafalda Hopkirk be so quick to pick up Dobby casting a Hover Charm in Harry's presence, but not even notice three Avada Kedavras?
Steve Newton - Aug 2, 2008 3:33 pm (#2822 of 2970)
The MOM did detect magic in the Riddle house. They seem to have placed responsibility for that magic at the feet of Morfin when they got around to investigating.
Solitaire - Aug 2, 2008 5:01 pm (#2823 of 2970)
Perhaps the owl just didn't get there immediately ... or, if it did, Riddle was gone by then. Come to think of it, when Harry performed the Expecto Patronum, it took from that moment until he and Figgy dragged Dudley home and they were in the house a minute or so before the first owl came from Mafalda. That was several minutes! I was interested, too, that they knew the time and the fact that it was performed in the presence of a Muggle.
Riddle probably didn't hang around long after AKing the family. That is really an interesting question, though ... I think you should ask Jo!
Quinn Crockett - Aug 2, 2008 8:21 pm (#2824 of 2970)
I have always believed that the Ministry was actually informed of Harry's "wrongdoing". In CS, I think Dobby performed the Charm, then told the Ministry about it. In OP, it was Umbridge. In both of these instances these two characters were deliberately trying to get Harry expelled (or worse).
Solitaire - Aug 2, 2008 10:47 pm (#2825 of 2970)
I never thought of Dobby telling ... but it seems that would have come out if he had done so.
Soul Search - Aug 3, 2008 6:56 am (#2826 of 2970)
I thought the "trace" only told the Ministry that magic had been performed near an underage wizard at a particular location. The spell performed could be identified, but not specifically the underage wizard nearby nor who performed the spell.
Mafalda Hopkirk sent the owl to Harry because it was known he lived at the location where the spell was performed and there were no other wizards at that location.
We have references of past magic performed by the twins at the Weasley household. In fact, during the normal course of a day, the Ministry would receive numerous "trace" triggers as the adult Weasleys performed routine household magic near the Weasley children. So many triggers that they would all be ignored. I wonder if the twins figured this all out?
Any magic performed by Tom Riddle at the Gaunt hovel would be attributed to Morfin, even though no underage wizard was known to be around there. Curious, perhaps, but not worthy of investigation.
Tom Riddle's AKs of the Riddles is a bit problematic. The Ministry would have known that the AKs were performed near someone with the trace, but could not identify who had performed the AKs. It might be assumed that no student could perform an AK, so the curses were performed by an adult wizard, with a "trace" student nearby. What we see is another example of Ministry incompetence for not fully investigating. Since Morfin was nearby and had cursed Tom Riddle Sr. before, he got blamed. It didn't help that he confessed. The Ministry took the easy way out and never tried to explain why a "trace" had been triggered.
We also know Tom Riddle created at least one horcrux while underage. Where did he perform the spell? Unless he was at Hogwarts, his "trace" would have been triggered and the Ministry would have known someone had made a horcrux. Is this how Dumbledore knew he had made a horcrux? Does the "trace" still work at Hogwarts, that is the Ministry gets a trigger, but they just ignore all the traces from Hogwarts?
I have never quite understood this bit of magic. There must be an incredible amount of information coming to Mafalda. Every household with underage children is going to generate numerous "hits," which must be ignored. How does she sort it all out?
megfox* - Aug 3, 2008 7:28 am (#2827 of 2970)
Maybe the Ministry has a "watch list" and they keep track of only certain places/individuals? Since Harry is living with Muggles who aren't his parents, and of course, he's Harry Potter, there may be more of a concern with magic being performed there. There was other magic done by other wizards and witches there (like Tonks and Mr. Weasley), so why weren't those instances tagged by the Ministry? In CoS, there was no reason for another wizard to be at 4 Privet drive, but maybe on those other occasions, the MInistry was alerted to the fact that there could be some magic in the vicinity of Harry, so they weren't concerned.
I would assume if this was the case, Muggle-borns would be more carefully watched and those with magical parents would not be watched. The restriction of underage magic would be relegated to the parents of children like the Weasleys. The Ministry would assume that their parents would uphold Wizarding law in those households.
This solution isn't perfect, but it would help explain how those other instances of magic weren't "reported", and how Mafalda wasn't completely and utterly overwhelmed by the amount of reported magic around underage wizards. Its like the "terrorist chatter" - they only pay attention to the noise that would make sense and be plausible as a concern, and just dismiss the other as chatter.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 3, 2008 9:22 am (#2828 of 2970)
We also know Tom Riddle created at least one horcrux while underage. Where did he perform the spell? - Soul Search
He did perform the spell at Hogwarts, because Myrtle was the first victim. When he Horcruxed the Peverell Ring, it was all part of framing Morfin Gaunt.
I think it's also possible that "the Trace" such as we understand it was not implemented until after Riddle's time.
Anna L. Black - Aug 3, 2008 1:29 pm (#2829 of 2970)
I think that the simplest explanation to this is if "alarms" are triggered only when Magic is done near Muggles. That was the case with Dobby, the dementors, and the Riddles' murder. In the first 2 cases Harry was the only wizard known to be around, so he got the blame. The same happened with Morfin.
When Tonks performed magic in 4PD, the Dursleys weren't there, so no alarm. Mr Weasley (in GOF) was Ministry, and he wasn't supposed to connect the house to the Floo network, either, so I guess he had someone covering up for him (or he could just inform Mafalda that he was going to pick Harry up - that'd put the place "off the radar").
Julia H. - Aug 4, 2008 3:09 am (#2830 of 2970)
Anna, I like your explanation but even in this case a few things remain "odd". After the Riddle-murders, the Ministry is alerted to the fact that magic has been performed near an underage wizard and in the presence of Muggles. Then it turns out the Muggles have been AK-d. It is logical for wizards to think that the murderer is more likely to be Morfin than a kid, still it is odd that they never wonder about the kid who must have been nearby. (Or do they?) I mean it could have been a 12-year-old kid witnessing a triple murder. It could have also been an accidental passer-by in the street but I suppose they should try to investigate who the underage wizard was and what happened to him, especially since there are no other wizarding people living in the neighbourhood. What is the chance that a triple murder is committed just at the moment when accidentally an underage wizard happens to walk by in the neighbourhood where no wizard kids live? (OK, perhaps they did try to investigate.)
PeskyPixie - Aug 4, 2008 1:20 pm (#2831 of 2970)
The Trace is every bit as confusing as Time-Turners!
Orion - Aug 15, 2008 5:31 am (#2832 of 2970)
Something I find odd: The Yule Ball is in winter, isn't it? And Hogwarts is in Scotland. And the girls are wearing ball gowns with spaghetti straps. I find it odd that the couples walk out into the park for snogging in the freezing cold. And I find it even odder that somebody parts the rose bushes with his wand to evict snogging couples because a rose bush looks quite transparent in winter because you cut it back so most of it isn't there anyway and roses aren't perennial, I mean they are perennial in that they last several years even if there's frost, but they don't keep their leaves in winter.
Choices - Aug 15, 2008 5:44 am (#2833 of 2970)
I got the impression from the book that both boys and girls wore dress robes. Parvati is described as wearing "robes of bright turquoise" and Hermione wore "robes of a floaty, periwinkle - blue material." In the movie, the girls did were evening gowns and would have needed a wrap/robe of some sort to go outside.
I think the rose bushes were magically in bloom and leafed-out for the ball - it was magic, as were the live fairies who decorated the bushes and gardens.
Hieronymus Graubart - Aug 15, 2008 10:29 am (#2834 of 2970)
At the Yule Ball, nobody walked really out into the park. All this happened in a winter garden (a room with walls made of glass) magically set up for the Yule ball in front of the entrance hall.
Solitaire - Aug 15, 2008 7:18 pm (#2835 of 2970)
I think the spaghetti-strapped dresses were in the movie ... not the book. The girls are indeed described as wearing robes that seem more formal.
Orion - Aug 16, 2008 12:33 am (#2836 of 2970)
Makes sense. A winter garden is still pretty coolish, but not as freezing cold as an open park, so with robes on it should be comfortable enough. Magically blooming rose bushes make sense, too. I should read more carefully.
Solitaire - Aug 16, 2008 9:15 am (#2837 of 2970)
You probably did read carefully enough, Orion. If you've watched the movie a few times since reading, however, you may be suffering from "movie contamination." Believe me, it isn't uncommon, even when you've read the books more than once.
poohnpiglettt - Aug 16, 2008 2:54 pm (#2838 of 2970)
"And Hogwarts is in Scotland"--Orrion
OK, I hope this is not just me, but I had no idea that Hogwarts was in Scotland. When I saw that post I expected floods of posts saying "what are you talking about--it's in England?". How did I miss that information? How embarrassing!
rassannassar - Aug 16, 2008 10:35 pm (#2839 of 2970)
Well none of the books explicitly state it, but all other things aside, it would be a pretty safe bet that's where it is. They're in the north and they're on the train to get there for hours.
I'm pretty sure I've read things about the castle of Hogwarts being based on Edinburgh Castle.
Quinn Crockett - Aug 17, 2008 11:39 am (#2840 of 2970)
It's in the Fantastic Beasts book. In the Acromantula section, it refers to "rumors" of a colony of acromantulas thriving in Scotland that have not been confirmed. Ron has annotated this with "confirmed by Ron Weasley and Harry Potter".
rassannassar - Aug 17, 2008 2:20 pm (#2841 of 2970)
Ah yes well I have never read that. But that's a funny way to put it. "Confirmed by Ron Weasley and Harry Potter"
mona amon - Aug 18, 2008 12:00 am (#2842 of 2970)
Ron has annotated this with "confirmed by Ron Weasley and Harry Potter".
. **sigh**Wish I had the Fantastic Beasts book, but I've never even seen it!
shepherdess - Aug 18, 2008 10:19 am (#2843 of 2970)
Ahh...you're missing out! The notes written in the book by Harry, Ron and Hermione are what makes the book so amusing. Like:
"Chimaera eggs are classified as Class A Non-Tradeable Goods." with a note added that says: "so Hagrid'll be getting some any time now".
rassannassar - Aug 18, 2008 10:34 am (#2844 of 2970)
I should really look into that.
Julia H. - Aug 18, 2008 2:27 pm (#2845 of 2970)
OK, so Hogwarts is in Scotland. Fine. The next thing I would like to know is the exact location of Durmstrang. (We know it is in the North, there are lakes and mountains. We know Viktor Krum swims in the lake in winter.) Any opinions?
Quinn Crockett - Aug 18, 2008 4:25 pm (#2846 of 2970)
Edited Aug 18, 2008 6:01 pm
Well, Viktor plays for the Bulgarian National Quidditch team. I would imagine Durmstrang is in Bulgaria.
ETA: I don't know anything about the climate of Bulgaria. It was just a suggestion. Durmstrang is almost certainly derived from the German expression "sturm und drang". Perhaps the school is in the Austrian Alps somewhere?? I dunno....
Julia H. - Aug 18, 2008 4:40 pm (#2847 of 2970)
But does the very cold climate fit? It is suggested that the Durmstrang students probably find the Scottish winter climate relatively warm. Swimming in an icy winter lake strikes me as a northern habit. I know Viktor is Bulgarian but he may still study in a different country. Grindelwald also went to Durmstrang. Should we suppose he was Bulgarian, too?
rassannassar - Aug 18, 2008 6:11 pm (#2848 of 2970)
But here is the thing: Bulgaria isn't very cold. Their winters are very cool but not too cold and the summers are quite hot. I imagined that Durmstrang was perhaps somewhere in the Scandinavian Peninsula. That would fit the extreme cold and it would make it more north than even Hogwarts is. The only real problem I see with that is that it seems like an awful long distance to send Krum away to school. Then again, it's not really unheard of either.
Orion - Aug 19, 2008 12:17 am (#2849 of 2970)
IMO Durmstrang is in the northern part of Russia, not far away from Finland or the baltic states but far enough away for having a harsh climate. These are in the vicinity of the North Atlantic Stream, so they have a rather mild climate, considering how far up north they are. So it must be farther in the east. Somewhere between Saint Petersburg and Murmansk. Bulgaria is far too hot, it's a tourist country.
Julia H. - Aug 19, 2008 1:43 am (#2850 of 2970)
Yes, Orion, I agree that the climate implies a place somewhere in Northern Russia (that is what the movie suggests as well, although it is not canon). It is not a mountains-and-lakes landscape, however. But then again since the students fly over lakes and mountains, they can perhaps fly somewhere quite far away from the school for flying practice. (LOL, in Russia, "near" and "far" do not mean the same as in many other countries.)
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Quinn Crockett - Aug 25, 2008 11:17 am (#2851 of 2970)
What about Poland? It always looks pretty frigid in all those old Cold War movies.
I know, no mountains to speak of.
poohnpiglettt - Aug 25, 2008 11:18 pm (#2852 of 2970)
Sorry if I take this off topic but as I was just listening to the audio book of HBP for the first time, something "struck" me. It's about the Gaunts and about witches/wizards in general and wand ownership. It seems unlikely to me that the Gaunts ever went to Hogwarts or any other wizarding school, although I suppose it's possible. But are adult wizards allowed to have wands and use magic if they had never gone to school? If so, could Hagrid have gotten another wand after coming of age once his name was cleared?
Steve Newton - Aug 26, 2008 6:35 am (#2853 of 2970)
Well, as long as Mundungus is around a new wand would certainly be gettable. Hagrid does seem attached to his original, though.
kingdolohov - Aug 26, 2008 7:40 am (#2854 of 2970)
I'm confused about a couple of Death Eaters, relating to what we know from the last four books.
First, Travers. From Karkaroff's trial, we know that he helped murder the McKinnons and had already been caught (and likely given a life sentence). When 10 top security Death Eaters escape from Azkaban, we know 6 of their identities (Bellatrix, Rodolphus, Rabastan, Rookwood, Dolohov, and Mulciber). Travers seems like he would be a top security prisoner, but we have no mention of him among the 10. According to Kingsley, Travers was supposed to be in Azkaban as of the time when they moved Harry. This means there are two possibilities:
1) Travers did not escape Azkaban with the 10, and had to wait another year and a half. This is probably the case, but it sounds like he was an important Death Eater, so it's a little surprising that he wouldn't be one of the escaped.
2) Travers escaped as part of the 10, and was re-caught, perhaps at Hogwarts the night that Dumbledore was killed. We know several of the Death Eaters there: Snape, Draco, Amycus, Alecto, Rowle, Yaxley (as brutal-faced Death Eater), Gibbon (killed), and Greyback. However, the two that are fighting Ron and Lupin are unknown, so perhaps Travers was one of them and was defeated.
The second Death Eater is Yaxley. According to Snape, Yaxley never went to Azkaban after Voldemort's first downfall. We know he is "brutal-face". "One of the Death Eaters who had witnessed Dumbledore's death was striding toward them" (DH 243), which is then identified as Yaxley. This Death Eater was certainly caught, as Scrimgeour tells Harry that he knows a second person was on the tower, because someone "stunned" a Death Eater.
If Yaxley was caught however, how could he have placed Thicknesse under the Imperius curse and received information from Dawlish? He would have been among those in the second breakout from Azkaban if he had been caught, but he certainly wouldn't have been in an inside role within the Ministry. From what he tells Voldemort, it sounds like he is working from within the Ministry.
Of course, these are small details. Travers can easily explained by him not breaking out of Azkaban as one of the 10. The Yaxley case, however, doesn't seem like it can be explained unless he cursed Thicknesse and talked to Dawlish outside of the Ministry, which seems unlikely given that his role seemed to be ensuring that the Ministry fell, something that required an inside presence. Probably just an error.
Choices - Aug 26, 2008 5:04 pm (#2855 of 2970)
There were four DE's on the roof besides Draco and Severus, who arrived last. Amycus, Alecto, Fenrir and one other brutal-faced man. I don't think there is any proof that the man was Yaxley or that the man was captured. He isn't named and Scrimgeour doesn't say that anyone was captured from the tower event where Dumbledore died. Anything concerning his whereabouts or activities can only be speculation. It could perhaps have been one of the teachers or one of the DA who went up to the roof after the fighting was taken outside the castle, saw the "stunned" DE and reported it to Scrimgeour. Just a thought.....
kingdolohov - Aug 26, 2008 6:41 pm (#2856 of 2970)
Actually, there's a pretty clear connection, made by Harry himself. Here's an expanded version of the quote I used in my last post:
"Harry's stomach turned over. One of the Death Eaters who had witnessed Dumbledore's death was striding toward them. The Ministry workers beside them fell silent, their eyes downcast; Harry could feel fear rippling through them. The man's scowling, slightly brutish face was somehow at odds with his magnificent, sweeping robes, which were embroidered with much gold thread. Someone in the crowd around the lifts called sycophantically, "Morning, Yaxley!" Yaxley ignored them" (DH p. 243).
And if someone went up and saw the Death Eater on the tower, what did they do with him? Check that he was all right, create a portkey, and send him on home, figuring that he had had a long day and needed some rest?
The Yaxley story would work if someone saw him up there, let him go, and then later told the Ministry about it; if he was found by the Ministry and for some reason allowed to continue working for the Ministry; or if he was leading the Ministry takeover in DH from outside the Ministry. Only the last option seems feasible, although I certainly got the impression that Yaxley was working from within the Ministry.
Choices - Aug 27, 2008 7:04 am (#2857 of 2970)
Your quote from DH is pretty convincing - I had forgotten about that. It seems likely that it was Yaxley, but I still don't believe he was arrested - due to his MOM connections.
kingdolohov - Aug 27, 2008 8:56 am (#2858 of 2970)
It just really strikes me as odd. It just doesn't make sense that someone would find a stunned Death Eater and let him go, or that the Ministry would let him keep working there if they knew he was a Death Eater. Considering its previous arrests, according to Arthur, were probably bogus, the Ministry would love to show that they caught a sure-fire Death Eater. Scrimgeour knew that a Death Eater had been stunned, so someone had to have found Yaxley, and from that point, I can't see why he wouldn't be arrested, connections or not.
Unfortunately, it doesn't make sense that he would have been arrested and then working for the Ministry again two weeks later either.
The Lexicon seems just as confused as I am. On the Azkaban page, Yaxley is listed among the prisoners (http://hp-lexicon.info/wizworld/places/azkaban.html), but in his own section (http://hp-lexicon.info/wizards/a-z/y.html#yaxley), he's mentioned as being in a position of trust within the Ministry.
Choices - Aug 27, 2008 4:45 pm (#2859 of 2970)
It makes me curious as to how long a "stunned" person stays stunned? Also, how soon after Dumbledore's death and the ensuing fight did the MOM Auror's arrive at Hogwarts?
Also, the MOM seems to have more than one DE working/hanging around there - Malfoy, for example.
kingdolohov - Aug 27, 2008 6:16 pm (#2860 of 2970)
"It makes me curious as to how long a "stunned" person stays stunned? Also, how soon after Dumbledore's death and the ensuing fight did the MOM Auror's arrive at Hogwarts?"
I don't think it's that long (Ginny came to pretty quickly in the DoM; same with Alecto after Luna Stunned her), but Yaxley wasn't techinically Stunned, he was body-binded. Either way, someone had to have seen him there if Scrimgeour knew that a Death Eater had been "Stunned", and unless they were completely careless, it doesn't make sense that he would just be allowed to leave.
"Also, the MOM seems to have more than one DE working/hanging around there - Malfoy, for example."
But after he was caught? Malfoy was in Azkaban once he was caught in the Department of Mysteries and the Ministry had to admit he was truly a Death Eater, and not an unwilling participant, as he had claimed after Voldemort's first fall. Macnair was another acquitted Death Eater working for the Ministry, but this too is before the fiasco at the Department of Mysteries. We haven't seen a Death Eater working for the Ministry after their capture, not counting the Death Eaters working there once Voldemort took power (which is completely different).
So either Yaxley was discovered on the tower but not arrested, or arrested and allowed to continue working inside the Ministry despite being a known Death Eater. Either seems like a stretch, making me inclined to conclude this was an error.
Choices - Aug 28, 2008 6:36 am (#2861 of 2970)
I think a "stunner" or "body-bind" can last varying lengths of time - depending on the power of the wizard casting the spell. If I remember correctly, when Malfoy stunned Harry on the train, he said Harry would probably be back in London before anyone found him and that is an all day trip - assuming the train does not just magically reappear at Platform 9 3/4's.
kingdolohov - Aug 28, 2008 7:08 am (#2862 of 2970)
Draco used Petrificus Totalus, as Harry did on the tower. If he expected it to take hours until Harry could be found, I expect it wasn't something that Yaxley would have recovered from too quickly either.
Yaxley still would have had to be found and neglected, regardless of the spell, in order for the Yaxley situation to work.
Choices - Aug 28, 2008 4:44 pm (#2863 of 2970)
I am back to it all coming down to what these various spells really do - stunners, body-bind, Petrificus Totalus - they are all so similar, but there must be subtle differences. Do they all last about the same length of time, and does the power of the caster influence the duration?
kingdolohov - Aug 28, 2008 5:19 pm (#2864 of 2970)
Stunners knock the victim unconscious, Petrificus Totalus (which is body-bind) freezes the person I guess. I can't get the spells section to load, but Harry was left in a crouched position after Draco body-binded him on the train, while I think Dolohov's arms and legs snapped together when Harry got him at the Ministry, despite both spells being Petrificus Totalus.
I don't see the importance of what the spell does, though, for this case. If Scrimgeour knew that a Death Eater had been defeated by whatever spell, someone had to have seen the Death Eater. And if that Death Eater (Yaxley) was still working in the Ministry two weeks later, the person who found him would have had to be pathetic enough to leave him where he was rather than secure him for arrest.
mona amon - Aug 29, 2008 3:46 am (#2865 of 2970)
Scrimgeour probably did not have much control of the Ministry at that time. Although the Ministry 'fell' to Voldemort only on the day of Bill and Fleur's wedding, it is mentioned in the first chapter of DH that the ministry has already been infiltrated. Voldemort must have started taking over right after the death of Dumbledore, and with people like Umbridge in the ministry, only too ready to support the more powerful party, it would not have been difficult.
I get the feeling that Lucius did not have to break out of Azkaban. I think he was brought out through the front door. And the other DE's captured on the tower were probably given a mock trial and released, after which Yaxley joins the Ministry. Voldemort's dictatorship had started, and I don't think Scrimgeour could do anything about it.
kingdolohov - Aug 29, 2008 6:45 am (#2866 of 2970)
I think Scrimgeour had more power than you give him credit for. I agree that there was probably nothing he could have done about the Azkaban breakout, and that there were plenty of Voldemort's people in the Ministry. But Voldemort was not overly optimistic about the Ministry situation at the time of the meeting, saying that one failed attempt on the Minister's life would set him back greatly. To me this indicates that Voldemort's people couldn't get away with anything they wanted yet, and that the minister still had some control, which I figure would include being able to keep a known Death Eater from working there.
But this does at least seem plausible. We don't know exactly what was going on in the Ministry and I like it better than thinking that one of the Order or DA found Yaxley, but in a bit of Crabbe or Goyle level stupidity, didn't bother to take care of him.
Julia H. - Aug 29, 2008 11:16 am (#2867 of 2970)
Stupidity or perhaps the person had other things to do. Perhaps they were still fighting when they saw Yaxley and could not do much about him. Later Yaxley may have escaped. Or the person seeing a stunned DE (a DA member, for example) may have gone for help (not knowing what to do with him) and by the time help came, Yaxley had perhaps escaped. If the person who saw Yaxley did not know him, Yaxley could hardly be identified and could easily continue working in the Ministry.
But it may be just an error in the books. It is fun to solve these errors.
kingdolohov - Aug 29, 2008 12:21 pm (#2868 of 2970)
Well, of course if Yaxley wasn't arrested and wasn't identified it wouldn't be hard for him to still work for the Ministry.
I don't see the fighting continuing back to the top of the tower, as the Death Eaters were fleeing after Snape and the rest came down from the tower, and unlikely to go back up to the highest tower to do so. I assumed the Death Eater was discovered in a "clean-up" of the castle (in which the dead Gibbon would be removed), either by the Order/DA or the Ministry. They may have figured they'd come back for Yaxley after moving Bill and Gibbon, but it seems careless not to use Incarcerous on him in the meantime.
But I agree, it's more fun to find things like this and discuss them than mope about HBP being pushed back to next summer, like I'd be doing otherwise.
Julia H. - Aug 29, 2008 12:37 pm (#2869 of 2970)
Well, the best solution seems to be that it was a student (a DA member) who saw Yaxley and (s)he was too inexperienced to think of anything else but run to find an adult. I guess an Order member would have been wiser.
Julia H. - Sep 6, 2008 3:20 pm (#2870 of 2970)
I don?t know if the time is ripe for starting a new discussion yet but I have wanted to post these thoughts for a while and now everything is so quiet anyway.
The HP books have attracted millions of readers worldwide, including readers who otherwise do not read much, yet the hero of these books is one who ? over a period of seven years ? is never caught reading anything for the sake of reading (school books and detective work are a different category) except for the book about Quidditch. It is also regularly emphasized that he is not exactly brilliant or hard-working at school (a regular rule-breaker in fact) although he is always able to use his otherwise hidden knowledge under pressure of mortal danger.
I understand that a hero who is talented at sports and not too eager to read or to study appeals to a wider audience and is more interesting to write (read) about than the male version of Hermione would be. Harry could not possibly sit in the library for seven books although he could occasionally read in some unguarded moments just for the pleasure a good book means. However, if we look at the other characters too, there seems to be a consistent message about dangerous good students and heroic dummies or rule-breakers in the books. The good guys are almost always Quidditch maniacs (even if not all Quidditch maniacs are good guys) and are typically good at Quidditch (Harry, the twins, even Ron, Cedric, James Potter). Harry?s best friend is not really good at anything at school and he does not read either (except one or two dubious things). The Marauders or at least James and Sirius are said to have been good at ?everything?, including even school work but this is very emphatically counterbalanced by their more notable trouble-making behaviour. The twins must be brilliant (considering their inventions and business success) but they do not care for OWLs and NEWTs at all. Neville seems to be hopeless at everything almost until the end.
What about the clever guys? Dumbledore is the cleverest of them and we finally learn that in his youth it was his brilliance and his thirst for knowledge that made him neglect Ariana and his yearning for an equally brilliant and knowledgeable friend (instead of his poorly educated brother) caused him to make the greatest mistake in his life. Snape is another former brilliant student and his house is full of books. Yet, it is clear that his interest and his talent initially took him in the worst possible direction. Of course, DD is one of the good guys and Snape also learns how to use his talents for good purposes but they both seem to exemplify how dangerous academic talent and deep knowledge can be.
What about the ?exemplary guys?? Percy is good at school, a prefect, a head boy ? and he grows up to be a rather disgusting careerist and bureaucrat. Bill, who was similarly good at school, is saved (I think) by his individual style regarding appearance. (Other good students include Ernie?) Tom Riddle himself was a brilliant student and had a very successful career at school with plenty of recognition ? and we can all see where it led.
Hermione seems to be the only great exception: an intelligent, hard-working student, an exemplary prefect and yet firmly on the good side all the time. In fact, there may be another exception: Lily. She seems to have been a good student, even a head girl with no dark sides. However, these two exceptions are girls. It seems it is OK, even useful, if a girl reads a lot, pays attention in class, keeps to school rules, studies hard and does well at exams but in the case of boys, the same thing is a good reason for suspicion.
My question is whether it all may just be a plot device or a means of attracting more readers ? or can it be indeed one of the messages of the books the author may have really meant to convey?
Solitaire - Sep 6, 2008 10:03 pm (#2871 of 2970)
It's hard to know, Julia. Concerning Percy, I do not believe it was either his good grades or his school status that caused him to be a jerk. I think it was a combination of personal ambition and circumstance. His job as Crouch's assistant thrust him into a position of pseudo-importance, and he bought his own press. His ego was so fragile that, to maintain it, he had to resist what his father was telling him about why he was getting so much attention from the Ministry. If he accepted it, then he would have to admit to himself that he was just being used for his connections. In the end, his Weasley genes won out, and he came back to the fold. As the oldest son and a smart, talented kid, Bill didn't have to try and find a way to stand out in the family the way Percy, the twins (who were obviously brilliant), and Ron did. Perhaps this accounts for his more laid-back personality.
Remus seems to have been a fairly good student, although maybe not brilliant at potions. Some of the DA boys--Terry Boot, Anthony Goldstein, Ernie MacMillan--seem to be smart enough. Because we know less about some of Harry's other peers, it's hard to say what they were like academically.
I am not sure if this is a message or plot device. Maybe it's just a representation of how she sees the world.
Dryleaves - Sep 7, 2008 12:09 am (#2872 of 2970)
I think this is a very interesting reflection, Julia! I wish I had something equally interesting to contribute to it, but I haven't just now, but I will certainly think about this question.
The gender question is hard to answer in a way, because are there really any other girls in the HP books other than Hermione? At least she is the only one who is given some space. But I agree that it is significant that she is academically brilliant without any negative implications. It is also significant, I think, that Hermione is not good at Quidditch and that the only thing she ever loses at is chess. (Another clever girl is Luna, but her knowledge differs completely from Hermione's.)
As to if this is just a plot device or an actual message from the author, I think it may partly be a plot device, but not only. I think there is some message or symbolics behind it, but I am not sure what it is or if it is all consciously intentional or if it is partly subconscious.
Orion - Sep 7, 2008 2:21 am (#2873 of 2970)
Great that you tackle this question, Julia. It has always bothered me. Not only that Harry and Ron don't read, but that the bookish kids (Hermione and Snape) are total outsiders. Hermione would have stayed an outsider if she hadn't veered into adventure territory, if only by accident.
But also because there doesn't seem to be any fiction at all in the HP universe. None of the kids ever reads a novel, and the Hogwarts library seems to consist entirely of scientific books. There are no novels, no poetry, no cinema, no theatre, no TV. There are radio broadcasts with news and music but no radio drama.
And also because the kids don't learn any foreign languages. Note that both the Beauxbatons and the Durmstrang students mangle the english language intellegibly enough. Not to mention the fact that there aren't any lessons in literature, arts or music at all, and that maths is a optional subject! Even if you count magical history as history, potions as chemistry, transfiguration as physics and herbology as biology, the curriculum of Hogwarts is still laughable, and it covers the entire education of the whole wizarding community in Britain (and Ireland?).
It wouldn't bother me if Rowling wasn't a learned teacher. Why didn't she take the chance to show children that sports and rule breaking isn't everything which counts in life and makes you popular?
Soul Search - Sep 7, 2008 5:52 am (#2874 of 2970)
"Why didn't she take the chance to show children that sports and rule breaking isn't everything which counts in life and makes you popular?"
Because, in her wizarding world, sports and rule breaking ARE everything and does make you popular. Otherwise, the story wouldn't be the same.
Julia H. - Sep 7, 2008 6:11 am (#2875 of 2970)
But the story could still be the same if the author occasionally mentioned, for example, that Harry was reading /title of a novel/ in Gryffindor Tower when his scar suddenly started to hurt so he had to put down the book (story could continue). Or Harry could secretly read an exciting book during Professor Binn's class. He never pays attention there anyway. That would still be rule-breaking but in an a sort of intellectual way, suggesting that even cool guys may read.
Orion - Sep 7, 2008 7:53 am (#2876 of 2970)
I don't even think that Rowling believes in that.
Solitaire - Sep 7, 2008 11:16 am (#2877 of 2970)
Interestingly, the actor who plays Harry loves to read! Just a piece of trivia I read recently ...
Orion - Sep 11, 2008 2:05 am (#2878 of 2970)
Something I found odd when reading PS/SS: In the chapter "Nicolas Flamel" the first years learn about werewolf bites in DADA when later in POA the third years have never learned about werewolves ever because it's too advanced.
Julia H. - Sep 11, 2008 6:10 am (#2879 of 2970)
In PS they learn how to treat werewolf bites but perhaps not how to recognize a werewolf, which is what Snape wants to teach them in PoA. Also, there must be several types of werewolves, some allegedly live in the forest, while others are like Lupin, a human being with a condition. (Why are they called the same?)
Another possible solution is that they do learn about werewolves in the first year but do not remember in the third year. When teachers come and go, muggle students at least like to tell a new teacher they have never learned anything yet though, of course, they have.
Quinn Crockett - Sep 11, 2008 8:46 am (#2880 of 2970)
I don't think JKR was making any deliberate comment by presenting the self-important characters like Percy or Ernie MacMillan as annoying swots. Nor do I think she was consciously establishing any sort of paradigm of "swot=outcast versus jock=popular". The outcasts in the story are outcasts for a variety of reasons, but I don't think any of them are put there specifically because they like to read. And remember, Harry is not particularly "popular" either. He is, at best, a sort of curiosity among the student body, a celebrity. Very few students actually take the time to get to know him as a person. In fact, there are many points in the saga where Harry is specifically shut out by the other students.
Having said that, PA opens with Harry doing his homework in secret. What is important about this scene is that it establishes 1) that Harry is doing his schoolwork on his own time (summer) and without prodding from anyone else; and 2) because he must do it in secret, we know that it has been discussed with his aunt and uncle - which means Harry had to have been doing his work on at least one other occasion. Shortly after this scene, Harry has committed to memory the words of the book Hermione has sent him for his birthday as a way to calm himself when stressed.
But one thing I do think JKR was trying to get across to the reader was that not every learning opportunity comes from books. Hermione, the voracious reader, is often unable to accept that "there are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in [her] philosophy" simply because they are never written about - or they are written about in as a point of contention, something not to be taken seriously. Of course, Luna is a direct counter to Hermione's rigid insistence on the superiority of "book-learning".
Harry learns to incorporate both of these views. It is what he has learned through his studies (with a great deal of assistance from Hermione on that) combined with what others have passed on to him that ultimately sets him on the right path.
Steve Newton - Sep 11, 2008 1:00 pm (#2881 of 2970)
Why do I now feel the urge to think that Harry=Kirk, Hermione=Spock, and Ron=McCoy?
Orion - Sep 11, 2008 1:07 pm (#2882 of 2970)
Apart from Ron being Ltd. Uhura, it's more that Harry is Frodo, Hermione is Legolas and Ron is Sam. And DD is Gandalf and Voldie is Sauron and Snape is Gollum and in the end Harry is miraculously transformed into Aragorn. Hagrid is Gimli, by the way.
azi - Sep 11, 2008 1:23 pm (#2883 of 2970)
I just had to chuckle at the image of Hagrid and Gimli being alike because of the huge size difference. I wouldn't class Hermione as Legolas myself, but I can't think who else she'd be.
But there are far too many similarities between LOTR and HP for my liking, especially in DH. The horcruxes remind me far too much of the one ring, the locket affects the trio like the ring affected Frodo...I know fantasy writers tend to steal concepts off each other, but something as obvious as that really annoys me.
Julia H. - Sep 11, 2008 1:36 pm (#2884 of 2970)
Snape - Gollum? Nooo! Gollum never wants to help defeat Sauron or to really help anyone. (Gollum could be Narcissa, trying to save her "Precious" all the time.) Ron as Sam? Why not Neville? Neville is the one who first continues the fight and takes the lead when Harry seems to have fallen.
Quinn Crockett - Sep 11, 2008 3:21 pm (#2885 of 2970)
Hermione is NOT Legolas.
Julia H. - Sep 11, 2008 10:33 pm (#2886 of 2970)
Perhaps Pettigrew is Gollum. Gandalf tells Frodo in LOTR it was a good thing to spare Gollum's life (in The Hobbit). DD tells Harry it was a good thing to spare Pettigrew's life in PoA. Both turn out to be right.
Orion - Sep 12, 2008 1:17 am (#2887 of 2970)
Hermione is not Legolas? Are you sure? She is this fabulously likeable creature who has more abilities than the others and just feels good to have around. I always think "Oh, great, Hermione." or "Oh, great, Legolas." They are simply more competent than the other dunderheads and still nice about it.
And Snape as Gollum... I'm not so sure, I didn't want to provoke anybody *yeah right* but when Smeagol has his big fight with Gollum, in the movie, it makes me bawl each time I see it. The poor thing didn't know what he got himself into... I can't explain it very well. Both of them provoke strong emotional responses.
Julia H. - Sep 12, 2008 4:08 am (#2888 of 2970)
Yes, I can see the big fight with himself in both characters but Smeagol loses and Gollum wins, while in the case of Snape, it is his better self that overcomes the worse one. Also, Gollum loves /is obsessed with an object, while Snape loves / is obsessed with a human being and that makes an important difference, IMO. Kreacher starts out as a sort of Gollum, obsessed with all the things left behind by the Blacks, but he too proves himself to be much more interested in people he loves than in the objects themselves (which only represent his loved ones to him).
BTW, Pettigrew also seems to fight with himself in a crucial moment before his death (precisely because he remembers Harry was merciful to him, as Smeagol, too, remembers Frodo was good to him) and I think, just like Smeagol, Pettigrew's better self loses, only he does not have any more time left to live. (And does not Pettigrew seem to treasure his artificial silver hand until it ultimately causes his death?)
H and R: Merry and Pipin, the fellow travellers? Just an idea...
Geber - Sep 13, 2008 7:19 pm (#2889 of 2970)
I would say Snape is more or less Denethor; he goes against the enemy and conceals his thoughts from him for his own reasons, and ends up dead.
Julia H. - Sep 14, 2008 4:49 am (#2890 of 2970)
Or Boromir? Giving in to the temptation of the power of the ring then dying while trying to atone for his mistake?
I'm glad there are no (or not many) instances of obvious one-to-one correspondence.
Orion - Sep 14, 2008 5:43 am (#2891 of 2970)
Dementors/Nazgul, Shelob/Aragog, Uruk-Hai/DEs, Elves/Veela, Merry and Pippin/the twins (comic relief), Aberforth/Tom Bombadil, Saruman/Lucius, Malfoy Mansion/Isengard, Minas Tirith/Hogwarts, the Ents/the Giants?
Julia H. - Sep 14, 2008 6:19 am (#2892 of 2970)
I see what you mean but at least these are the supporting characters only, not the main ones. (I know Gandalf is DD.) I don't see too much or too obvious similarity between the Elves and the Veela or between Aberforth and Tom Bombadil or even between Lucius and Saruman. Both Saruman and Lucius are more "earthly" villains next to an all-powerful chief villain and both fall in the end but Lucius never reaches Saruman's power or dark knowledge or ambition (he never attempts to be his master's rival). We can equate them on a certain level of interpretation but the correspondence is no too deep.
Quinn Crockett - Sep 14, 2008 3:22 pm (#2893 of 2970)
I definitely see the Aberforth/Bombadil connection. Veela/Elves, not so much. The wizard world is already Elvish, in the Tolkien sense.
Choices - Sep 14, 2008 4:18 pm (#2894 of 2970)
I think this thread has gotten way off track - Ike must have blown it off the subject of things we find odd in the HP series.
poohnpiglettt - Nov 2, 2008 3:18 pm (#2895 of 2970)
I've just been rereading COS for the first time in a long time. I just noticed that in the chapter where Harry and Ron first meet Moaning Myrtle and are coming out of the bathroom, running into Percy, he takes 5 points from Gryffindor while pointing to his prefect badge. In OOP the big deal about Umbridge's Inquisitorial Squad was that they could take house points while prefects could not. So this means either: a. this was just a mistake on Jo's part; b. Percy knew he couldn't take points but was just trying to frighten Ron (although neither Ron nor Harry called him on that point while they did with Malfoy); or c. Percy was so full of himself he thought he could actually take house points--that's how puffed up he was with self importance. Personally, I like c for Percy.
Orion - Nov 3, 2008 12:27 pm (#2896 of 2970)
I agree, poohnpiglettt, that's odd. It must be a simple mistake but you start to wonder what continuity eds are paid for. *nitpick*
Quinn Crockett - Nov 3, 2008 2:32 pm (#2897 of 2970)
It's not really a mistake and JKR actually addressed this issue during a Q & A shortly after the release of OP. She explained that Ron just wasn't a very effective Prefect, since he believed that Prefects weren't allowed to give or take points.
I think it should be noted, though, that, though Draco was a member of the Inquisatorial Squad, he was also a Prefect. So was he able to deduct points because he was in the IS or because he was a Prefect, or both? Certainly Ron thinks it's only because he's in the Squad. But as a Prefect, Ron would have had the same authority.
Julia H. - Nov 3, 2008 2:46 pm (#2898 of 2970)
JKR's explanation sounds like a hastily invented explanation.
Quinn Crockett - Nov 3, 2008 6:06 pm (#2899 of 2970)
I don't think so. Ron, though a prefect, didn't do anything any differently than he usually did, other than use his position to get Seamus to leave Harry alone.
Mrs Brisbee - Nov 3, 2008 6:23 pm (#2900 of 2970)
But didn't Ernie Macmillan get it wrong also, then? I'll need to find my book, but I'm pretty sure Prefect Ernie was also in on the conversation, and so just as mistaken as Ron if we go by JK Rowling's explanation.
Edit: Yes, just checked it, and Ernie gets it as wrong as Ron, then. Which does seem very odd.
- Hufflepuff Prefect
- Posts : 3114
Join date : 2011-02-21
Age : 59
Location : India
Swedish Short-Snout - Nov 3, 2008 9:37 pm (#2901 of 2970)
I thought Ernie protested because Malfoy, as a member of the Inquisitorial Squad, was allowed to take points from other Prefects.
Julia H. - Nov 4, 2008 5:44 am (#2902 of 2970)
One would think Ron has heard it a thousand times from Percy what Prefects can do.
Mrs Brisbee - Nov 4, 2008 6:34 am (#2903 of 2970)
One would think Ron has heard it a thousand times from Percy what Prefects can do.
ROFL. Indeed, and since Percy has actually docked him points, I'd think Ron would know directly through personal experience whether prefects can or can't dock points.
It's actually Ernie who says that Prefects can't dock points, only teachers can. Ron confirms this and reminds Malfoy that they are Prefects, too. Malfoy then confirms that Prefects can't dock points, but that being on the Inquisitorial Squad is what gives him the power to do so. So three Prefects all say that Prefects can't dock points.
I'm going to agree with Julia that it was a mistake, and Rowling was trying to come up with an explanation on the fly. She probably gets hit with unexpected questions all the time, so I wouldn't hold her to it.
Quinn Crockett - Nov 4, 2008 11:02 am (#2904 of 2970)
Well, maybe Percy abused the power so they took it away from all the subsequent prefects. Stuff like that can happen....
Julia H. - Nov 4, 2008 12:48 pm (#2905 of 2970)
LOL! I like that explanation!
Soul Search - Nov 4, 2008 2:09 pm (#2906 of 2970)
Percy took points from Gryffindor, his own house.
Mrs Brisbee - Nov 5, 2008 5:30 am (#2907 of 2970)
Well, the explanation that Prefects could only dock points from their own House would have worked. Such a rule would have prevented Prefects from abusing their power.
But I like Quinn's explanation because I can totally imagine an incredulous McGonagall calling Percy in for a talk after she discovers he has docked 87 students a total of 435 points in just one week.
Michael Franz - Nov 5, 2008 10:43 am (#2908 of 2970)
Wait a minute. Didn't Draco say in that scene that prefects couldn't take points from each other? Was there really something that said prefects couldn't take points from ordinary students?
poohnpiglettt - Jan 13, 2009 7:14 pm (#2909 of 2970)
Edited Jan 13, 2009 9:08 pm
I never understood why when Hermione first takes the picture of Phineas Black out of her bag and blindfolds him that they all then speak in a way that reveals exactly who they are--or, at least, more than likely who they are. Espeically knowing that the picture hangs in Snape's office and that Phineas was a Slytherin and is honor bound to help the current headmaster. It seems strange since Ron is supposed to be in bed with a bad case of spattergroit he defends Ginny by calling her "my sister" and Harry calls Hermione by name who is supposed to be possibly in hiding as a lot of muggleborns were. Harry seems to be the only one who doesn't absolutely identify himself although Phineas calls him "Potter" and he answers. It seems if they didn't want him to know who they were, they would have been more cautious in what they said or, if they didn't care that he knew who they were, why the blindfold? They were inside a tent--they could have been anywhere. Although, I admit, the blindfolded Phineas makes for some very amusing reading. : )
Mrs Brisbee - Jan 13, 2009 8:37 pm (#2910 of 2970)
Indeed, poohnpiglettt, indeed. I also don't understand why they didn't ditch the picture once they realized it was allied with Snape, and could might actually spy on them.
Solitaire - Jan 13, 2009 9:12 pm (#2911 of 2970)
Was Phineas back in the purse when they were calling each other by name and talking about where they were? I wondered if perhaps he couldn't hear when he was inside the purse. Remember, we are talking about an enchanted purse (that I would love to own).
As to why the didn't ditch the pic when they found out it was connected to Snape ... they would have known before taking him that Phineas's portrait was hanging in Hogwarts, bound to give advice to the Headmaster (Snape) he's if asked. Both Ron and Harry have seen him there on more than one occasion. Hermione knew there might come a time when they would need to know what was happening at Hogwarts. I thought she was absolutely brilliant to bring old Phinny along!
poohnpiglettt - Jan 13, 2009 9:29 pm (#2912 of 2970)
"Was Phineas back in the purse when they were calling each other by name and talking about where they were?" Solitaire
He was still out of the purse when some of the exchanges took place. After Harry asks about Ginny by name Phineas says:
"...That silly girl acted most unwisely there--..." and Ron replies: "Shut up about my sister."
And when Phineas is talking about goblin-made armor and Hermione questions him, he says:
"Muggle-borns...goblin-made armor does not require cleaning, simple girl..." and Harry says: "Don't call Hermione simple."
Actually, until I just reread this part, I did not realize it seems Phineas knows it is Hermione before Harry mentions her name since he is referring to her when he says "muggle-borns," unless he's indicating that most purebloods would have known details about goblin-made armor. Of course, anyone who knew the trio well could have surmised that they were together but it still seems strange that they took such precautions and then seemed to throw them out the window.
"As to why the didn't ditch the pic when they found out it was connected to Snape ... they would have known before taking him that Phineas's portrait was hanging in Hogwarts, bound to give advice to the Headmaster (Snape) he's if asked." Solitaire
Edited to add this part--sorry, didn't see it before. I didn't mean to imply that they should ditch the picture, just why blindfold Phineas and then give out info as to who they are. Like I said, I think that most who knew the trio, including Snape, could have concluded they were together but they seemed to make it easier for Phineas to figure it out.
Mare - Feb 1, 2009 3:35 pm (#2913 of 2970)
We don't have a "problems in the 7th book" thread yet, have we?
So I just came here because I found it so odd that the last battle took place in the great hall, didn't they just lay some 50 dead people there? So what, they got trampled on, hurrily locomotored away? Anyone know the answer or is this again one of these "the editor should have caught that" moments? (Like all the times the cloak and the Marauders map mysteriously re appeared in Harry's posession...)
Solitaire - Feb 1, 2009 4:11 pm (#2914 of 2970)
Pooh, I think most of the time Hermione kept her purse closed, and Phineas couldn't hear what the kids were saying. But the other night, I was looking in Chapter 19, The Silver Doe, and saw this exchange between Harry and Hermione:
"Where are we?" he asked, peering around at a fresh mass of trees as Hermione opened the beaded bag and began tugging out tent poles.
"The Forest of Dean," she said. "I came camping here once with my mum and dad."
They were recovering from the ordeal with Nagini, Harry was feeling lost without his wand, and they had been reading that stupid book of Rita's, The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore. I suppose they dropped their guard about Phineas. I'm betting that's when he heard.
Julia H. - Feb 1, 2009 4:21 pm (#2915 of 2970)
I have always thought that was when Phineas heard them. If my calculations are correct, it was the second day of Christmas (on Christmas Eve they had been at Godric's Hollow, and on the first day of Christmas they had been reading about DD), Phineas heard them and hurried to Snape, who was in his office, to tell him the news, and that very night the Doe appeared in front of Harry. (We know Snape left his office with the sword and with his travelling cloak just minutes after getting the information from Phineas.)
me and my shadow 813 - Feb 1, 2009 7:03 pm (#2916 of 2970)
Yes that is what I gathered as well. JKR made a point of Hermione opening the bag at the moment she spoke, so that it would make sense in Severus's memory and thus his actions.
rambkowalczyk - Feb 2, 2009 12:45 pm (#2917 of 2970)
So I just came here because I found it so odd that the last battle took place in the great hall, didn't they just lay some 50 dead people there?
fair enough question. Maybe the great hall expands to accommodate a crowd.
legolas returns - Feb 2, 2009 12:48 pm (#2918 of 2970)
The hall usually fits hundreds of students and four huge tables. If they moved to one side i suppose there would be lots of room.
poohnpiglettt - Feb 2, 2009 7:13 pm (#2919 of 2970)
"They were recovering from the ordeal with Nagini, Harry was feeling lost without his wand, and they had been reading that stupid book of Rita's, The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore. I suppose they dropped their guard about Phineas. I'm betting that's when he heard." Solitaire
I'm actually thinking about an earlier chapter, I think it is The Goblin's Revenge (I don't have my book with me at the moment--I've been listening to it on my iphone) when Hermione takes Phineas out of the bag for the first time (I think). I agree that even then they could have been exhausted, weary and frightened and just dropped their guard but it just seemed odd to reveal so much to Phineas knowing he hung in Snape's office. Not about where they were, since I don't think they reveal that to him, but just making it clear who they all are.
Solitaire - Feb 2, 2009 7:33 pm (#2920 of 2970)
Well, it was in the Forest of Dean when she had her bag open and was talking ... and that is the location he gave Snape. I do not believe they had been to the Forest of Dean before that time, and it is not long after the incident that the doe appears ... so I'm guessing that was when he heard.
poohnpiglettt - Feb 2, 2009 10:32 pm (#2921 of 2970)
"Well, it was in the Forest of Dean when she had her bag open and was talking ... and that is the location he gave Snape." Solitaire
Maybe I wasn't clear in my first post. I wasn't talking about Phineas overhearing about the sword or revealing that to Snape--that I had understood to be in the Forest of Dean. But way before, right before Ron leaves them. It is right after the trio hear Dean Thomas, Ted Tonks, someone else I can't remember at the moment, Griphook and the other goblin talking about the attempted stealing of the sword by Luna, Ginny, and Neville. At that time, Griphook reveals that the sword is a fake. Hermione then takes the picture of Phineas out of her bag and immediately blindfolds him.
I would imagine blindfolding Phineas would be for their protection but, though he guesses it is Harry by the voice, Harry does not deny it is him to keep Phineas interested. After Phineas calls Ginny a name, Ron says "don't say that about my sister" which reveals it is at least one of the Weasleys, but Ron would be the most likely since he's Harry's best friend. And when Phineas calls Hermione "mudblood" Harry says "don't call Hermione that."
My original question, or the thing that I found odd, was why the need for the blindfold since they essentially told him who they were and they were inside a tent so Phineas couldn't have figured out where they were. But I think what I find stranger at this point is why were they so cautious about all of the defenses they set up and yet they reveal who they are (meaning that the three are traveling together) to a picture that hangs in the office of the man they think killed DD.
As far as they knew at that time, Snape was in league with LV. Ron was supposed to be in bed with spattergroit. Finding out he was actually on the run with Harry could have put his family in danger but the trio reveal who they are to a picture hanging in Snape's office who could have told then revealed that to Snape.
me and my shadow 813 - Feb 2, 2009 10:42 pm (#2922 of 2970)
Pooh, you are talking about when HRH overheard Griphook talking about Ginny, etc. trying to steal the Sword. They were worried so pulled out Phineas to find out what happened to them. That's what you're referring to, correct? I can see what you mean that they revealed too much that could get back to Severus.
But I do love the line when Hermione blindfolds Phineas and he says You are ruining a great work of art!"
Edit: cross-posted with you pooh -- I guess we're talking about the same thing
Ludicrous Patents Office - Feb 4, 2009 6:56 pm (#2923 of 2970)
It bothered me that Hermione hid the painting and they stayed at 12GP long after Snape would know they were there. If he was the enemy he could come and get them. He knew the secret. LPO
Julia H. - Feb 5, 2009 4:29 am (#2924 of 2970)
I think the reason we get is that they hope Moody's anti-Snape charms will keep Snape away, and if not, "he is only one DE" - he can't take others with him to attack the Trio because he can't give away the secret. (They still don't know how the DE's found them in London so they don't think they would be safer anywhere else.) I think at some point Harry even says he would not mind meeting Snape face to face.
Hm... having said that, I seem to remember Hermione later thinks that after DD's death, they are all secret keepers, which means Snape must be a secret-keeper, too, so he could go there with any number of DE's.
I agree that blindfolding Phineas and then letting him know who they are is not truly logical, especially because of Ron's family. Everybody knows Harry is on the run, and it does not matter much if they find out that Hermione is hiding with him and not alone like other Muggle-borns. However, Ron is supposed to be at home, seriously ill, and his whole family are taking part in this deception. Of course, Ron is worried about Ginny and he is under the influence of the locket at the moment, which together may explain why he is not more careful.
At one point they ask Phineas if he could bring Dumbledore along. He can't do that but the fact that they ask him suggests they cannot really believe the portrait would truly serve the DE regime (magical obligation or not). Hm... It would be interesting to know whether they hope that the information they let Phineas know will somehow reach Dumbledore's portrait... But it is never mentioned.
Solitaire - Feb 5, 2009 7:12 am (#2925 of 2970)
Well, both Harry and Ron have heard the portraits talking to each other and to DD, so maybe they are trusting that Phineas will still act honorably.
Quinn Crockett - Feb 5, 2009 11:44 am (#2926 of 2970)
I don't think they Trio were really concerned with Phineas knowing who they were - he obviously knew - but rather where they were. Because that could have been a problem.
Julia H. - Feb 5, 2009 1:43 pm (#2927 of 2970)
Harry and Hermione were already known to be on the run. In the case of Ron, however, the problem started with anybody finding out he was not at home and not ill. Worse still if he was discovered to be with Harry.
me and my shadow 813 - Feb 7, 2009 10:12 pm (#2928 of 2970)
Sprout, Neville and company lob Mandrakes out the castle during the battle, but all humans die from their sound. This is a thing which stuck me as "odd".
mona amon - Feb 8, 2009 12:43 am (#2929 of 2970)
They were wearing earmuffs.
me and my shadow 813 - Feb 8, 2009 10:40 am (#2930 of 2970)
But the members of the Order and other fighters who were against the DE's who might have been outside were not. That's my point...
Mare - Feb 8, 2009 11:03 am (#2931 of 2970)
And that could go on the "should have been better edited" list. I never thought about it, but you are so right!
Choices - Feb 8, 2009 5:31 pm (#2932 of 2970)
Mare, that picture is so lovely. **sigh** Wish I was there right now to hear the Merpeople sing. "....on the bonnie, bonnie banks of Loch Lomond."
Solitaire - Feb 8, 2009 7:20 pm (#2933 of 2970)
It is beautiful. I wish it were larger.
mona amon - Feb 8, 2009 8:37 pm (#2934 of 2970)
But the members of the Order and other fighters who were against the DE's who might have been outside were not. That's my point... (Me and my shadow)
I think there may not have been any good guys out of the castle at that point, as they were concentrating on defending the castle from within. Anyway, I imagine it's like hurling a grenade. You have to first check that none of your own side are among those present.
Hieronymus Graubart - Feb 9, 2009 2:19 am (#2935 of 2970)
Do we know to which distance the mandrake's cry kills people? Can you stay safe away if you here it from far? I think the grenade is a good anology.
Mare - Feb 9, 2009 5:52 am (#2936 of 2970)
And how long do they keep crying? If it is for hours and hours you still have a problem (although they might be trampled by giants by then.)
And I love that picture too, I want to go back! Here is a larger version. Unfortunately photobucket insists on adding random stripes... [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
me and my shadow 813 - Feb 9, 2009 1:46 pm (#2937 of 2970)
The grenade thing works for me.
Solitaire - Feb 9, 2009 2:14 pm (#2938 of 2970)
It is a discrepancy that needs explaining, IMO.
me and my shadow 813 - Feb 9, 2009 2:35 pm (#2939 of 2970)
It's weird because I hadn't noticed until I made a riddle about it. I always imagined the Mandrakes as loud as the Egg in GoF: **loud**.
Maybe if you're not in very close proximity you just get injured i.e., an earache or headache? Hopefully Sprout and company had good aim.
Solitaire - Feb 9, 2009 3:06 pm (#2940 of 2970)
Shadow, I think it is probably just a discrepancy that Jo didn't consider. Then again, what is a Mandrake scream when all of that bedlam was happening everywhere? Perhaps once they fell, the screaming stopped??? I would like to know how Jo accounts for the discrepancy, though.
me and my shadow 813 - Feb 9, 2009 3:30 pm (#2941 of 2970)
I know, it's odd because I'd imagine if a sound is lethal it would likely cut through the ruckus -- although I've never been in battle so ruckus is probably quite the understatement.
Choices - Feb 9, 2009 6:05 pm (#2942 of 2970)
Perhaps the Mandrakes were charmed to affect only the enemy? Just a thought. :-)
Solitaire - Feb 9, 2009 6:09 pm (#2943 of 2970)
It's hard to say. In a Wizard battle, there would obviously be no guns or bombs going off, but I'm sure there was a lot of screaming and stuff crashing, things exploding, perhaps some stuff burning, and bits of the castle breaking off and falling.
I remember the comment just after Neville cut off Nagini's head (and yes I realize this was after the forest scene): "Chaos reigned." I just had a mental picture of what must have been the order of the day during the entire battle.
Mrs Brisbee - Feb 10, 2009 5:37 am (#2944 of 2970)
Well, it could be that the Mandrakes screamed on the way down, knocking out Death Eaters left and right (I'm not sure if they would be fully mature Mandrakes in early May; I doubt it), but were plastered across the landscape upon impact. In other words, the Mandrakes didn't survive their dangerous mission beyond the first few seconds.
Solitaire - Feb 10, 2009 6:47 am (#2945 of 2970)
Perhaps Muffliato could be used to block their sounds from one's own ears. What do you think? Or maybe just the sound was enough to cause the enemy to retreat from the castle for the moment. Professor Sprout did say that the enemy could be held off for a while, didn't she? I will have to recheck at which point the mandrakes appear. I can't remember. Is it before or after the castle has been breached?
me and my shadow 813 - Feb 10, 2009 12:39 pm (#2946 of 2970)
I thought of Muffliato as well, Solitaire. I'm sure Pomona would have taken every care and would not have just started chucking lethal plants into the crowd randomly. But still, technically the canon does seem to be lacking .... nickpickers we are!
Julia H. - Feb 10, 2009 2:20 pm (#2947 of 2970)
Do they know about Muffliato? And how do they use it to protect those who are on their side but not the enemy?
me and my shadow 813 - Feb 10, 2009 2:25 pm (#2948 of 2970)
We are just throwing ideas around, Julia.
Solitaire was saying one could perhaps use it on oneself?
Solitaire - Feb 10, 2009 8:07 pm (#2949 of 2970)
They may not know it ... but I'm sure there must be some spell that is the Muggle equivalent of putting in ear plugs.
me and my shadow 813 - Feb 10, 2009 11:34 pm (#2950 of 2970)
When I first came to the forum I wrote a funny little prediction on the Predictions For Book Seven thread. It's post #484. If anyone could make a link to it for me I'd much appreciate it. It has to do with this topic and is a bit of a chuckle. I'll try to figure out how to link from the How Do You thread...
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mona amon - Feb 11, 2009 2:39 am (#2951 of 2970)
Let me try-
Here's the link to Me and My's post.
So are you Sybil Trelawney or Firenze or perhaps JKR?
Mare - Feb 11, 2009 5:22 am (#2952 of 2970)
but I'm sure there must be some spell that is the Muggle equivalent of putting in ear plugs.
No, I don't think so, such a spell would never be included in canon: Jo is having far too much fun with the pink fluffy earmuffs...
me and my shadow 813 - Feb 11, 2009 9:58 am (#2953 of 2970)
mona amon, thanks! Care to share the easy way to do such a link? I tried and failed a few times using View Source on the page the post was on...
Anyway, I thought it was a cute prediction -- thanks but if anything I'm the love child of Sybill and the Nag
Mare, let's *hear* it for earmuffs!! (I couldn't hear you!)
shepherdess - Feb 11, 2009 7:53 pm (#2954 of 2970)
If you click on edit, your link will look like this <*a href="/webx?14@50.UYUaaA8kSuv@.1dde593b/2981">me and my shadow 813, "+ Things which struck you as "odd"" #2953, 11 Feb 2009 9:58 am without the *'s.
If you edit the wording between <*a href="/webx?14@50.UYUaaA8kSuv@.1dde593b/2981"> and to whatever you want to call your link, it will look like this: Shadow's post
Hope this helps.
me and my shadow 813 - Feb 12, 2009 6:34 pm (#2955 of 2970)
Thank you very much, shepherdess -- I'll give it a try.
Orion - Feb 17, 2009 12:52 pm (#2956 of 2970)
I find this odd: If you apparate, you can never know what exactly is at the spot where you apparate to, do you? So effectively you can apparate directly into solid stone or a cow or another person. What would happen if you apparated directly to the spot where another person was still standing? Would you knock them aside, or disappear inside them and make them burst?
Okay, this is probably the most pointless post ever posted on this forum. But another question: Has anybody ever noticed that there are boring and interesting spells in magic? Boring spells are such that you can do the same thing without magic. For example Accio: Simply go and fetch it, if you're a muggle. Or Sectumsempra: Use a knife! Levitation: Go and lift the thing with your hands! Apparition: Take the train! And the interesting spells are such that they do things which are utterly impossible in real life, such as using Polyjuice potion, transfiguring something or being an Animagus.
legolas returns - Feb 17, 2009 1:01 pm (#2957 of 2970)
I wouldn't say that Accio is totally useless. If you don't know exactly where the item is it can be a quick way to get what you need. I would particularly like this to find keys and my mobile in a Hurray.
If you often run late apparition would be good.
Julia H. - Feb 17, 2009 1:43 pm (#2958 of 2970)
I'm quite sure it is possible to be late even if you apparate.
Orion, interesting questions.
I think once Ron tells one of the twins that he has just apparated on his (Ron's) feet. The twin says something like it is more difficult in the dark.
*** Too lazy to find the quote.***
legolas returns - Feb 17, 2009 1:50 pm (#2959 of 2970)
I am sure that if I could apparate I would spend the 45 minutes I travel to work in bed. In my opinion that would be a good way to spend the 45 minutes .
Julia H. - Feb 17, 2009 1:53 pm (#2960 of 2970)
Soul Search - Feb 17, 2009 3:08 pm (#2961 of 2970)
But of all the magic in HP I would like to be able to apparate the most. (I mean, do I really need to make slippers out of rabbits?) Talk about saving time! And, I am fed up with airports and airplanes.
By the way, if you find an old kid's hula hoop and try apparate into it, it doesn't work and you get dizzy trying. Must need a wand. Still keeping an eye out for one. Any stick in the antique store gets a look.
Solitaire - Feb 17, 2009 8:29 pm (#2962 of 2970)
I wouldn't exactly lump apparition with train travel ... at least, not until we get a much faster train! (Although I do think I would like train travel in England and Scotland, where there is something pretty to see.) I no longer find airports and airplanes fascinating. Rather, I consider them necessary evils of travel. I wouldn't mind being able to send my things to their destination magically and follow by apparition. Or better still, have a nice suitcase similar to Hermione's beaded bag. I could take anything I wanted ... no limits!
Levitation would really come in handy for me around the house and at work, since carrying anything over a couple of pounds really makes my back hurt. Sometimes I even have trouble lifting relatively small things, as I've lost some grip strength in my hands. I'd love to be able to levitate furniture, school things that require 2-3 trips from my car to the classroom, etc.
John Bumbledore - Feb 18, 2009 5:48 am (#2963 of 2970)
Locomotor crate! I think every teacher would master that spell first. LOL
But really, we muggles have the wheels on our luggage, don't we? Not the same, I know. They still get heavy with the more things you add and they require hard, smoth surface to roll propper.
Libraians would certainly use levitation instead of wheels on their book carts. No squeeky wheels in a library!
Here's one spell missed out, there is no mention of a spell that would replace muggle texting and paging (asside from the Order using the Petronus charm). Though the mirrors that James and Siruis had were like video conferencing...
Solitaire - Feb 18, 2009 7:01 am (#2964 of 2970)
The only problem with mirrors, IMO, is that they break. Otherwise, I think I'd prefer them to phones. Then again, on a phone I can carry on a perfectly decent, intelligent conversation--or business transaction--while dressed in PJs and looking like a fright. Mirrors would give away a lot of secrets! LOL
me and my shadow 813 - Apr 5, 2009 9:21 pm (#2965 of 2970)
Did Dumbledore find it odd that Tom Riddle's wand contained the first of only two feathers that Fawkes provided Ollivander with? I find it odd that a boy of Slytherin lineage would be the one "chosen" by this wand. I wonder about the circumstances surrounding Dumbledore's discovering this fact. If young Tom insisted upon going to Diagon Alley alone then most likely no one but Ollivander himself would have witnessed the purchase. Do teachers know the contents of all students' wands? It might be so. What happened then? Did Dumbledore know and this fueled his instinct to keep an eye on the boy?
Julia H. - Apr 6, 2009 12:03 am (#2966 of 2970)
Dumbledore, Riddle and Harry are the three characters who in one way or another all survive their own deaths and that is why all of them are connected to the phoenix. It may have been Riddle's early interest in death and immortality that made the phoenix feather interested in him.
The phoenix seems to be a Gryffindor animal quite as much as the lion. The snake is a Slytherin animal. It it remarkable that Riddle and Harry both get connected to both the phoenix (because of their wands) and the snake (as Parselmouths).
I wonder if the "decision" of the first phoenix wand (prior to the Sorting) could also mean that Riddle was not totally determined (by his parentage) to become what he became, i.e. that he, like Harry, also had a choice.
Choices - Apr 6, 2009 6:54 am (#2967 of 2970)
It is my opinion that neither Harry nor young Tom Riddle got the wands that they did by accident. I believe Dumbledore gave those two phoenix feathers to Ollivander and specified how he wanted the two wands made and to whom they were to go. I think "the wand always chooses the wizard" story was to prevent either boy from not accepting the wand designated for him. If that wand chooses you, you wouldn't dare turn it down. For me, the tip-off was that Ollivander notified Dumbledore when Harry got the second wand - the brother wand. Unless Dumbledore had planned the whole wand thing, why would he want to be notified when Harry was "chosen" by the second phoenix feather wand. I think Dumbledore knew from the git-go that Tom Riddle and Harry would become major adversaries and their wands would be very important in their ensuing battles. Dumbledore was tipping the scales in Harry's favor from the beginning.
me and my shadow 813 - Apr 6, 2009 7:20 am (#2968 of 2970)
Interesting, Julia and Choices! I have a theory which is sort of a combination of, but different from, your feelings. I feel that once Riddle's wand chose him, it was destined to be that the boy he would choose (between Neville and Harry) would be "chosen" by the other Fawkes wand on the day they went to Ollivander. This twinning then ensured the wands would not work as effectively against each other, giving Harry extra protection.
I like the idea that Dumbledore was responsible for the latter half. But I don't think he would have wanted young Tom to have such a wand, even if he cared about the boy and wanted him to possess some Gryffindor influence and guidance. It is possible that the Fawkes wand chose Tom because it felt a small degree of potential in him to be "Gryffindorish", but I don't see that personally. It would have been great if the feather served as a sort of "tracking device" so that Dumbledore would be able to keep track of Tom's actions and dark magical deeds, but we don't see that revealed (although in HBP Lord Voldemort's Request it is alluded to in a way).
I think Dumbledore was probably shocked that the wand for which Fawkes gave a feather went to Tom. When Tom rose to power and hunted Harry, I think Dumbledore had Fawkes give another feather in order to provide a twin wand for Harry. Then, when the wand chose Harry, it supported Dumbledore's intuition about what happened and what was to come.
I feel that Tom wanted to be in a house like Slytherin; even if he had no idea what the four Houses represented upon walking into the school, the Sorting Hat would know instantly what intentions, desires and habits this boy had. I do think every child has a choice when they put the Sorting Hat on, which is why the Hat is never wrong
Soul Search - Apr 6, 2009 8:21 am (#2969 of 2970)
I like the idea that Dumbledore had Ollivander make a wand from Fawkes feather and make sure it accepted Tom Riddle.
We saw in the HBP orphanage scene that the young Tom Riddle disturbed Dumbledore. Dumbledore knew he should keep an eye on Tom Riddle. Seeing that he got a wand that Fawkes could trace (somehow) would help with that. The other pensieve scenes suggested Dumbledore knew what Tom Riddle was up to, or at least where. How else could Dumbledore have known to go to the Gaunt house.
Then, when Harry comes along, Dumbledore does the same thing so he can keep track of "the chosen one." We see even more evidence with Harry. Dumbledore did tell Harry "you have been watched more closely ... ."
And, how did Fawkes know to go to Harry in the Chamber of Secrets?
me and my shadow 813 - Apr 6, 2009 9:42 am (#2970 of 2970)
Edited by Kip Carter Apr 6, 2009 1:55 pm
I thought Dumbledore knew to go to the Gaunt House because of Tom's middle name and other clues. But I do feel that the Pensieve memory where Tom applies for the teaching position suggested that Dumbledore was aware of Tom's activities. Whether it is due to Dumbledore's own prowess or the wand is anyone's guess. I feel it is a combination of both. I do not think Dumbledore *intended* Tom to have the wand but found out later that his having it was useful, and then had Ollivander make a second one for Harry after the Potter murders. I have more to add but no time at the moment...
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Solitaire - Apr 6, 2009 1:45 pm (#1 of 178)
My post here is a response to the last three posts on Part I of this thread--made by Choices, Me and My Shadow, and Soul Search.
Unless Dumbledore had planned the whole wand thing, why would he want to be notified when Harry was "chosen" by the second phoenix feather wand.
I do not see Dumbledore as quite that prescient. We still do not know when the feathers were given or whether both feathers were given at the same time--or do we? Were they even given by Dumbledore, or were they given by someone else, before he tamed Fawkes? (I honestly do not remember being told in the story.) If both were given before Riddle and Harry were born, which is possible, I think DD might have wanted to be notified about whom the wands chose. Whether he gave Ollivander only one feather initially or both at the same time, he might not have thought anything about who would get the second wand until he began to realize how evil Riddle really was. Once that happened, I think who the second wand chose would have been of great interest to him.
If he did give only one feather at first, then I think it is possible that he may have given the second feather after James and Lily were killed. He may have realized that Harry might need some special help defending himself in the future. Knowing the nature of the Phoenix--"increasing the courage of the pure of heart and striking fear into the hearts of the impure"--Dumbledore might have guessed that Fawkes would develop an affinity to Harry because of the purity of Harry's heart, his loyalty, and his ability to love.
Again, I do not believe DD specified Riddle as the recipient of the first wand. Dumbledore does not claim to be a Seer or even to believe in Divination. I do believe, though, that he may have wanted Harry to have the second wand, once he realized that Harry would become a target of Voldemort, who possessed the first one ... and he probably asked Ollivander to let him know which wand chose Harry.
how did Fawkes know to go to Harry in the Chamber of Secrets?
In the Chamber, Harry was speaking out and defending Dumbledore to Riddle ... "Sorry to disappoint you and all that, but the greatest wizard in the world is Albus Dumbledore. Everybody says so. ... Dumbledore saw through you when you were at school and he still frightens you now, wherever you're hiding these days--"
When Riddle says that Dumbledore has been driven from the castle by the mere memory of him, Harry retorts, "He's not as gone as you might think!"
At this point, Fawkes comes soaring into the Chamber, singing his song. I think it was Harry's defense of Dumbledore that brought Fawkes. Dumbledore later says, "You must have shown me real loyalty down in the Chamber. Nothing but that could have called Fawkes to you." I guess that is what called Fawkes to Harry.
Soul Search - Apr 6, 2009 3:12 pm (#2 of 178)
Yes, that is how the story unfolded, but how did Fawkes hear Harry and how did Fawkes know where to go? And know to bring the Hat, which could produce Gryffindor's sword?
Is Fawkes connected to his feather in Harry's wand?
me and my shadow 813 - Apr 6, 2009 3:22 pm (#3 of 178)
I believe that, just as Fawkes is used as a messenger -- and leaves a tail feather when that message is delivered -- that Fawkes is somehow connected with and able to give and receive messages via his tail feathers! Again, I don't think Dumbledore orchestrated the whole thing from his first meeting with young Tom, but I think there was an element of receiving information via the tail feathers. I just feel that, had it been an actual means by which to track Tom, the story would have ended long before it did.
Solitaire - Apr 6, 2009 4:42 pm (#4 of 178)
Is Fawkes connected to his feather in Harry's wand?
Yes, I believe that he is. I believe that this is part of what Dumbledore calls "magic at its deepest, its most impenetrable." I believe that Fawkes was magically connected to the tail feathers. Why did he help Harry rather than Voldemort? After all, it was memory Riddle who was holding Harry's wand, and he also had one of Fawkes's feathers in his own wand. I just think Fawkes knew instinctively that this wand was Harry's, and that Harry was pure of heart ... and Voldemort was evil.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Apr 6, 2009 5:47 pm (#5 of 178)
I think Harry's desperate mental plea for help called Fawkes to him. Fawkes has been with Dumbledore for a long time and probably knows how important Harry is to the future. Dumbledore and Fawkes can communicate with each other. The phrase "Called Fawkes to you" says to me Dumbledore did not send him. I had not considered the feather connection. Fawkes represents hope and Harry's only hope was for some form of help to arrive. LPO
Thom Matheson - Apr 6, 2009 6:42 pm (#6 of 178)
I suppose that all could be right but I choose to look at it with less depth. I think that Olivander asked Dumbledore for feathers because that is what he does, takes magical items as cores for his wands. I see him just asking for them. From there "the wand chooses the wizard". I find it hard to believe that Olivander even knew Riddle as a boy. At that time there was no Voldemort, so who would know to be on the lookout. Olivander would haver told Dumbledore that this new first year was chosen for one of the wands but the rest didn't unfold until decades later. Harry came along and here we goe again. The wand choose Harry, that being the curious part. Undoubtally because of the soul bit in Harry. Olivander again notified Dumbledore. At this point in the story I think that the only person that could draw any connection to the two wands would have been Dumbledore, and I doubt that he let on to anyone about it. Fate more then anything else drew them together with the same wand, not predisposition.
Solitaire - Apr 6, 2009 8:00 pm (#7 of 178)
Thom, I believe as you do about the feathers. I even read somewhere that the feathers were given long before Fawkes was tamed by Dumbledore ... but it was not a site I recognized or that seemed to be a "reputable" HP site, like Leaky Cauldron, Mugglenet or HP Lexicon. I do not think DD had Riddle and Harry in mind when he originally gave the feathers--if he gave them.
At this point in the story I think that the only person that could draw any connection to the two wands would have been Dumbledore
Here I disagree. Ollivander himself told Harry that his wand's "brother" gave him his scar. I think he was aware that there must be some kind of connection there ... although I'm not sure he was aware just what it was until four-and-a-half years later, when Harry did battle with Voldemort.
me and my shadow 813 - Apr 6, 2009 8:20 pm (#8 of 178)
I agree that in the Chamber it was Harry's heart that called to Fawkes and not his wand core.
I agree with Thom and Soli that neither Dumbledore nor Ollivander had any precognition or intentions about Riddle's wand. It was only after he became Vold and killed the Potters that I feel it is possible that Dumbledore "planted" a twin wand for Harry. It is entirely possible that DD knew all along the wands' kinship would help Harry in staying alive. But Ollivander didn't know; he informed DD out of pure incredulity (is that a word?).
I really love the idea that Fawkes's tail feathers are powerfully magical enough (or magically powerful enough?) to be like some sort of antennae. I find it very interesting that the only wands we know of to have phoenix feathers at their core are these two...
rambkowalczyk - Apr 7, 2009 1:41 pm (#9 of 178)
All we know for sure is that Fawkes only gave 2 feathers to Olivander.
I don't think Dumbledore directed Olivander to guide the wands to any particular person. I also don't think Dumbledore was using the Phoenix core as a tracking device--If he did then there should have been someway to prevent some of the nasty spells that Tom was using or at the very least trace it to Tom.
Also didn't Harry test lots and lots of wands before trying the other Phoenix core. I suspect Olivander had no desire to sell the other wand but had to because he was running out of wands. Olivander told Dumbledore maybe in part because he feared Harry might be a Dark Wizard.
The fact that the wands wouldn't work against each other would be of no help to Harry if Dumbledore expected Harry to defeat Voldemort.
Solitaire - Apr 7, 2009 2:50 pm (#10 of 178)
I suspect Olivander had no desire to sell the other wand but had to because he was running out of wands.
I don't think so. The narrative says that Mr. Ollivander seemed to grow happier and happier as more wands were tried and put aside. When the "brother wand" chose Harry, Ollivander cried, "Oh, bravo! Yes, indeed, oh, very good. Well, well, well ... how curious ... how very curious ..."
I think he was hoping that the brother wand would choose Harry! JM2K, of course ...
Quinn Crockett - Apr 7, 2009 5:13 pm (#11 of 178)
I don't find it odd at all that Dumbledore would show an interest in the final destination of the two feathers donated by his pet phoenix. I don't think there is anything more significant than that. It only becomes significant when Riddle becomes Voldemort. And because Ollivander knows who purchased each wand he has ever made, he keeps an eye out for whomever happens to purchase the "brother" wand. It then becomes even more significant because Harry, "the Chosen One", ends up being that person.
rambkowalczyk - Apr 8, 2009 4:45 am (#12 of 178)
The narrative says that Mr. Ollivander seemed to grow happier and happier as more wands were tried and put aside. Solitaire
rushes upstairs to find battered copy of SS.
Indeed the book does say that. But I interpreted that sentence along the lines that Olivander was happy when he had a challenge.
later it says "Tricky customer, eh. Not to worry, we'll find the perfect match here somewhere--I wonder, now yes, why not- unusual combination-- holly and phoenix feather.
This implies that Olivander just thought of the Phoenix wand, not that he was building up to it as a foregone conclusion (or that there was any plan to give Harry this wand from the beginning).
At this point in time Harry was just The Boy Who Lived NOT the Chosen One. Olivander, because he recognized every wand he ever sold,did know the significance of this one and told Dumbledore.
But I don't think he told Dumbledore because he thought Harry would defeat Voldemort as he knew that in a duel the wands would not properly work against each other. I think he told Dumbledore because he recognized that Harry was a powerful wizard like Riddle and needed watching.
Solitaire - Apr 8, 2009 8:36 am (#13 of 178)
I think he told Dumbledore because ... a) Dumbledore would want to know who had the other Fawkes-feather wand; b) Dumbledore would naturally be interested in Harry, whatever wand chose him; and c) He knew it would be significant that Harry had the brother-wand of the man who had once tried to kill him ... although he may not have realized how significant at the time.
legolas returns - Apr 8, 2009 12:31 pm (#14 of 178)
I was wondering if Dumbledore got Fawkes to donate two feathers to create a balance. Dumbledore knew a lot of wandlore and other deep magic stuff. He won the Deathstick from Grindlewald so he realised the potential that different wands had. The first feather had to be taken so that it could be put into Voldemorts wand. It is not clear whether two were given at the same time or not. Perhaps once Dumbledore realised who had the wand he got Fawkes to donate another. He said that the wands connecting was a rare phenomonen so it would be fairly unusual to have two donations from one source or more specifically the brother wands doing battle.
Thom Matheson - Apr 8, 2009 3:50 pm (#15 of 178)
You guys are so deep in your thoughts about this. Couldn't it be that as any good wandmaker is always going to be looking for core items to use in wand making, Olivander was just doing the same? You are presupposing that the feathers were purposly asked for in order to make a wand for Voldemort and later Harry. Your wand is something that is obtained at age 11 before starting at Hogwarts. No one, including Dumbledore knew who Voldemort was. Because Voldemort didn't exist, just some skinny kid named Riddle, not unlike most other 11 year olds. I don't think Olivander would have contacted Dumbledore when the Phoenix wand picked Riddle any more then he would have contacted anyone else. At that time Dumbledore wasn't even the Headmaster, he was a teacher that had a cool magical creature. It could have been a cool Unicorn or a dragon heartstring for that matter.
Now Harry comes along and Olivander difinately knows about Voldemort and what wand he was packing. By the second wand picking Harry is what makes the whole thing interesting, tying the two of them together. Then he tips off Dumbledore. My guess is because the feather saw the same character traits as before because of the Horcrux soulbit in Harry. That is the trigger for me. And Olivander was the one holding the gun. I hope that makes sense the way I wrote it out.
me and my shadow 813 - Apr 8, 2009 4:21 pm (#16 of 178)
Not that it really matters at this point, but the topic I initially posted a few days ago here on the "odd" thread was: didn't Dumbledore find it odd that Tom Riddle was chosen by the wand containing Fawkes's tail feather? I certainly find it odd, as he has no Gryffindor-like qualities to me, and Fawkes is the embodiment of Gryffindor qualities and he probably was Dumbledore's companion by that time.
Choices - Apr 8, 2009 4:36 pm (#17 of 178)
I do find it odd - definitely. That is one reason I wonder if it was not planned instead of just happenstance. There are certainly many ways it could have come about, but I just happen to imagine it was a planned thing for Tom and Harry to end up with brother wands.
Also, about Dumbledore not being headmaster when Tom arrived at Hogwarts. I see Dumbledore's duties as headmaster, and Dumbledore's knowing about Tom Riddle and taking on Harry's training, as being two different jobs - not connected. Dumbledore ran the school, but privately he protected the Wizarding World and prepared Harry to battle Voldemort.
me and my shadow 813 - Apr 8, 2009 5:40 pm (#18 of 178)
My sense of it is that both boys represented aspects of the phoenix: Tom was striving for immortality and even assumed his mother wasn't a witch because she had died; Harry carried a heavy load and healed the WW. This is reinforced, to me, by the wood of their respective wands reflecting the wizard, as JKR describes on her website:
I gave Harry a wand made of holly wood back in 1990, when I first drafted chapter six of ?Philosopher?s Stone?. It was not an arbitrary decision: holly has certain connotations that were perfect for Harry, particularly when contrasted with the traditional associations of yew, from which Voldemort?s wand is made. European tradition has it that the holly tree (the name comes from ?holy?) repels evil, while yew, which can achieve astonishing longevity (there are British yew trees over two thousand years old), can symbolise both death and resurrection; the sap is also poisonous.
This still does not answer my "odd" question... didn't Dumbledore find it odd that, shortly after meeting Tom at the orphanage and finding the boy -- um, odd -- this was the very boy who ended up with Fawkes's wand?
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 8, 2009 6:28 pm (#19 of 178)
Not that it really matters at this point, but the topic I initially posted a few days ago here on the "odd" thread was: didn't Dumbledore find it odd that Tom Riddle was chosen by the wand containing Fawkes's tail feather? I certainly find it odd, as he has no Gryffindor-like qualities to me, and Fawkes is the embodiment of Gryffindor qualities and he probably was Dumbledore's companion by that time.-- me and my shadow 813
Yes, it is odd, though I'd more say that Fawkes was the embodiment of the supposedly Hufflepuff trait of loyalty.
Perhaps it was simply because of Tom Riddle's strong desire to be immortal.
Do we know when Fawkes became Dumbledore's companion? It could have been well after Tom Riddle got his wand.
I always expected we would get some explanation about why Dumbledore's phoenix just happened to be the one who gave the feathers, but it was never explained.
me and my shadow 813 - Apr 8, 2009 7:29 pm (#20 of 178)
Mrs B, we don't know when Fawkes and Dumbledore became buddies. It could have been after Tom got his wand, and that could explain why it perhaps wasn't mentioned as a concern (although how this concern would have been voiced is limited to a Pensieve memory...).
Oho! I just had a thought. Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald in 1945... Tom graduated from Hogwarts in 1945... What if Dumbledore got Fawkes from Grindelwald by defeating him? What if the first feather was given by Grindelwald (it was never said that DD gave both feathers)? And the second, after the Potter murders, by Dumbledore in reaction to the Prophecy... "just in case"?
edit: please allow me to shoot down my own speculation:
Peter Humphreys for BBC Newsround. - Who did Fawkes previously belong to and will he play a vital role in the next book?
JK Rowling: I am not going to answer about the role in the next books, which probably gives you a big clue, and he has never been owned by anyone but Dumbledore.
Solitaire - Apr 8, 2009 7:59 pm (#21 of 178)
Perhaps it was simply because of Tom Riddle's strong desire to be immortal.
I think this is probably accurate. I do not for a moment believe that Dumbledore ever would have wanted Riddle to have a Fawkes-feather wand, if the choice had been up to him. Dumbledore did not trust Riddle from the beginning, really. But the wand chooses the Wizard. We can only guess why this wand choise this wizard, and Mrs. Brisbee's comment leads me to think that the wand sensed Riddle's desire for immortality.
I still do not think it matters at all whether Dumbledore gave Ollivander the feathers or whether Fawkes himself gave them (Yes, I think it is possible that Fawkes could have given the feathers to Ollivander) ... many years (or generations or even centuries) earlier. Ollivander knew that Fawkes was Dumbledore's phoenix when Harry's wand chose him, and he passed on the information.
me and my shadow 813 - Apr 8, 2009 8:30 pm (#22 of 178)
That's basically what I was trying to say in the first paragraph of post #18 -- that the phoenix symbolised the very different aspects in the two boys, which was amplified by the wood of their wands.
It would be a lovely thought that Fawkes gave a feather, which became Tom's wand and when Tom became Voldemort, Fawkes went to Dumbledore and pledged his alliegance to helping with the next "defeat". It is possible this correlated with Grindelwald's defeat. It cannot be a coincidence that the defeat and Tom's manhood/leaving Hogwarts occurred in the same year.
I do not feel that Fawkes represents Hufflepuff loyalty primarily. Dumbledore uses the word loyalty to describe Harry's acts in the Chamber that called Fawkes to him with the Sword. This is a word simply, to me, that means "worthy" of Gryffindor support, in this case Fawkes and the Sword. Fawkes is scarlet and gold, he symbolises fire as does Gryffindor, he is Dumbledore's, to me he is the embodiment of Gryffindor.
Solitaire - Apr 8, 2009 8:55 pm (#23 of 178)
It cannot be a coincidence that the defeat and Tom's manhood/leaving Hogwarts occurred in the same year.
Why not? The only connection between Grindelwald and Riddle that we have seen thus far is Voldemort seeking him out in order to find the Elder Wand. He does not even seem to realize who Grindelwald was. Was he even aware of Grindelwald as a young man?
I can imagine that Dumbledore might have feared a potential alliance between young Riddle and Grindelwald, should they ever meet, and that this could have spurred him to confront Grindelwald in battle before this happened ... but it is only speculation, since neither DD nor Jo ever say this.
me and my shadow 813 - Apr 8, 2009 9:38 pm (#24 of 178)
I wasn't trying to infer an alliance between Grindelwald and Riddle. I was imagining it to be a poetic way for Dumbledore to have acquired Fawkes: Fawkes gives Ollivander a tail feather prior to becoming Dumbledore's companion. After Dumbledore defeats Grindelwald in 1945 there on the scene almost instantly is another dark wizard to take his place. Fawkes goes to Dumbledore and says, "hey, the kid who's got my tail feather wand is evil. Let's put our heads together and defeat him, since you're good at defeating dark wizards and I'm good at a lot of things." Dumbledore says, "You've got a deal!" Then, when the Potters are murdered, and Harry is protected by the ancient magic, Dumbledore has an idea of how brother wands might help with the Prophecy. He and Fawkes give another feather and wait to see if the Holly wand chooses Harry.
That's all I was saying; we all have our little opinions and imaginings of other than what's in the books. That's what makes it fun.
legolas returns - Apr 8, 2009 11:18 pm (#25 of 178)
I love your discussion between Fawkes and Dumbledore . Have you considered a different career ?
me and my shadow 813 - Apr 9, 2009 7:26 am (#26 of 178)
rambkowalczyk - Apr 9, 2009 11:53 am (#27 of 178)
didn't Dumbledore find it odd that Tom Riddle was chosen by the wand containing Fawkes's tail feather? I certainly find it odd, as he has no Gryffindor-like qualities to me, and Fawkes is the embodiment of Gryffindor qualities
Most(?) of us seem to make the assumption that Fawkes is the only Phoenix in existence. Would you find it odd if Tom Riddle was chosen by a wand that had a feather from a different phoenix? The impression I had was that Phoenix feathers were just as abundant as unicorn hairs or dragon heartstrings so in reality Tom had a 1 in 3 chance of getting the phoenix core.
Also I don't think any one house has a preponderence of any particular core.
Solitaire - Apr 9, 2009 12:08 pm (#28 of 178)
I'm curious ... what core is in the Elder Wand? BTW, did Hermione ever get her own wand back after the battle? Is it possible that Bella was using it during the Battle at Hogwarts Castle?
me and my shadow 813 - Apr 9, 2009 12:10 pm (#29 of 178)
We are told that Fawkes only gave two feathers. We are only told of two people in the WW who have phoenix tail feathers at the core of their wands. By contrast, if you look on the Lexicon, there are many wand owners with unicorn tail hair cores and some, yet lesser so, with dragon heartstring core wands. Since we are told of many wands, and mostly with unicorn tail hair wands, and that Fawkes only gave two feathers, this says to me that the odds of Tom and Harry getting those two wands (out of thousands? of wizards in witches in Britain) were quite slim.
shepherdess - Apr 9, 2009 3:30 pm (#30 of 178)
Shadow, I expressed similar sentiments here: shepherdess
me and my shadow 813 - Apr 9, 2009 4:36 pm (#31 of 178)
shepherdess, I had seen your post and, "oddly" enough it didn't really register what you were saying. I was more focusing on that thread's discussion of Ollivander knowing/not knowing, which isn't so much of an interest for me. So thanks for pointing that out. I'll try to clarify why I feel that phoenixes (phoenices? ) always represent fire and not just Fawkes: it is my understanding that magical creatures often correspond to an element. Not only in the HP world, but often times in folk lore, which is what JKR has based much of her world upon. Although I cannot relay all the creatures' corresponding elements, I would say nearly for certain that the phoenix corresponds to fire. Just as a salamander does. Just as a gnome corresponds to Earth, which is why I have always felt that Ron represents a Gryffindor/Hufflepuff, because of the gnome association (as well as the Burrow being affiliated with subterranean animals like the badger/rabbit/gopher). Back to the point, given that Fawkes is so heavily associated with Gryffindor, I am curious what Dumbledore thought of young Tom walking into Ollivander's shop just after their meeting, and being chosen by Fawkes's wand...
Solitaire - Apr 9, 2009 6:09 pm (#32 of 178)
I think it is Riddle's wish for immortality that connected him with the Phoenix-feather core.
Thom Matheson - Apr 9, 2009 8:28 pm (#33 of 178)
Ollivander said in the first book that he uses Dragon Heartstrings, Unicorn Hair, and Phoenix Tail Feathers. The uniqueness is that Faulkes only ever gave two, which ended up in Riddle's and Harry's wands. Over the years, Ollivander has used Phoenix feathers often is my impression. This from the Diagon Alley chapter in PS/SS.
Orion - Apr 10, 2009 9:13 am (#34 of 178)
In mythology there is only ever one phoenix, IMO, but in the HP universe it may be different because it's JKR's invention and she can do as she pleases. If there was only one phoenix at a time there can be countless phoenix tail feathers around, only Fawkes gave only two, for whatever reasons. I would prefer it if these two feathers were the only phoenix feathers ever used in wands because it would make the twin wands more special but we can never know.
In my mind, Fawkes gave those two feathers when he was already friends with DD, he simply lost them (by accident, in a battle situation) and DD was friends with Ollivander and gave him those feathers to experiment with. ("Look, I know you use dragon and unicorn but try these.") Then Ollivander would have contacted DD when Riddle would have bought his wand because he would have been excited. ("Listen, somebody bought the phoenix wand!" - and DD would have remembered the name.)
IMO Riddle took the phoenix wand because he was extremely talented and special.
Solitaire - Apr 10, 2009 10:46 am (#35 of 178)
In GoF chapter 36, Dumbledore tells Harry and Sirius, "Harry's wand and Voldemort's wand share cores. Each of them contains a feather from the tail of the same phoenix. This phoenix, in fact."
It sounds to me like there are other phoenixes, in Jo's world, at least.
Thom Matheson - Apr 10, 2009 4:39 pm (#36 of 178)
I got the impression that Ollivander has been using them since, what is it, 394BC?
Ludicrous Patents Office - Apr 10, 2009 9:06 pm (#37 of 178)
JKR often uses her own versions of Myths. I never got the impression Fawkes was the only Phoenix around. I am sure it was a disappointment to Ollivander that Fawkes only gave two feathers. I'm sure Phoenix feathers are difficult to come by. LPO
Quinn Crockett - Apr 11, 2009 1:16 am (#38 of 178)
If Fawkes were the only Phoenix, it would not really be necessary to mention the species as "magical creatures" (plural) since there could simply be a footnote about how "Albus Dumbledore is also the only known wizard to have a pet phoenix" or something like that.
Orion - Apr 11, 2009 8:21 am (#39 of 178)
Correct. There must be more than one because Fawkes doesn't hatch, there is never an egg, Fawkes just renews his own body from time to time. So if he was the only one around, he would be the one and only phoenix who ever lived.
I assume that Fawkes is a he because there is no mention of an egg. If Fawkes was a lady there would be eggs. Terry Pratchett has another version: There is only one phoenix but it is a she and she lays an egg and the burning is a way of hatching quickly. And in times of great danger there is more than one egg, for safety.
Still I think that the phoenix wands are most special and rare because compared to them dragons and unicorns are quite common. The rare and special phoenix wand chose the very gifted young wizard and together they were very successful.
Julia H. - Apr 11, 2009 2:14 pm (#40 of 178)
It seems the same discussion is taking place on two threads... (?)
In my mind, Fawkes gave those two feathers when he was already friends with DD, he simply lost them (by accident, in a battle situation) and DD was friends with Ollivander and gave him those feathers to experiment with. (Orion)
LOL! Or Ollivander made a visit to Hogwarts, talked to Dumbledore, saw Fawkes and complained how difficult it was to get a phoenix feather those days, and then Fawkes graciously donated two.
On why Riddle got the Fawkes-feather wand: I don't think Fawkes could really influence the choice of the wand made with his feather. I know phoenixes are very special animals but so are unicorns. Just for the sake of symmetry: Would the average unicorn be able to influence all the wands made with its feather? What about the dragon, which is probably dead when its heartstring is used? My guess is that the wand will become a combination of the core-principle and the tree-principle. So in the case of Voldemort, it is not the feather of Fawkes that chooses him but the combination of the symbolism of the phoenix (not that of Dumbledore's phoenix specifically) and the symbolism of the yew. The phoenix and yew combination seems to be a combination of life and death, e.g. eternal life locked into death, which is quite fitting because Riddle seeks immortality by killing people. (Harry's wand is more like a life plus life combination to me.)
In this case, it would be interesting to know whether it is the actual wandmaker's decision to combine a certain core with a certain tree (and the wandmaker should know what properties or interests the wand will have) or whether there are standard combinations, e.g. that phoenix feathers are used in yew wands or holly wands.
shepherdess - Apr 11, 2009 3:51 pm (#41 of 178)
Julia, I like what you say about the combination of the core and tree qualities together making the wand what it is. That goes a long way towards explaining each wand choosing the person it did in spite of having brother cores.
I like the life+death vs. life+life description too. When I read the "life plus life" comment, I thought "how approprate since Harry kind of got two lives".
...it would be interesting to know whether it is the actual wandmaker's decision to combine a certain core with a certain tree...~Julia
I tend to think this is probably the case, given that every wand that's described in the series is unique, and given that the wand chooses the wizard and every wizard is unique also. This possible explanations allows more leeway for the creativity of the wand maker and for the developement of new wand types/combinations.
And yes, we have practically the same discussion going on on the "Wands" thread
me and my shadow 813 - Apr 12, 2009 12:49 am (#42 of 178)
I agree that it is the combination of the yew/phoenix that was attracted to Tom, and the holly/phoenix that was attracted to Harry. I suppose Fawkes was not aware of being in Tom's wand or wasn't partial... but that just doesn't sit right with me. I know the discussion is happening on two threads, so to reiterate - to me, the immortality aspect of the phoenix was attracted to Tom; the "carrying a heavy load and healing" aspect was attracted to Harry. I suppose, since ultimately Dumbledore embodied dark and light, that Fawkes did as well. He perhaps was a neutral force that could be wielded in any way, shape or form. I don't like the idea, but it does fit with what we are given about these two wands "choosing" their wizards.
Julia H. - Apr 12, 2009 3:49 am (#43 of 178)
By the light of the day I realize, of course, that unicorns have hairs, not feathers.
I'm quite convinced that Fawkes is fully on the light side, and not only because he happens to be Dumbledore's bird. I don't think at least that Dumbledore somehow convinced an originally neutral Fawkes to help him and Harry or that Fawkes could similarly have been convinced by Voldemort or Grindelwald to help the dark side. It is only that Fawkes can't nullify the negative force of the yew into which his feather is locked.
me and my shadow 813 - Apr 12, 2009 7:58 am (#44 of 178)
That's my issue here, that I cannot associate Fawkes with Tom any more than I could associate the Sword with Tom. Wouldn't it be odd if Gryffindor's Sword had been used by Tom?
I see what you mean, Julia, but I don't see the yew as a negative force. I understand you are refering to the immortality and death symbolism of the wood but, to me, I see the wood's energy as less likely to be "in control" of to whom they belong than the animal part.
To me it is the equivalent of, if Hippogriff feathers were used in wands, that Buckbeak's feather was in Draco's wand. He simply should not and would not be chosen by such a wand. Why wouldn't another phoenix feather choose Tom? The only clue here is the twin wand effect was needed and Fawkes was the means to achieve it.
But I still want to know what Dumbledore's reaction was when he found out the wand chose Tom. Didn't he think it bizarre that, at the very least, it didn't choose a child who would be chosen by Gryffindor's House?
Solitaire - Apr 12, 2009 9:29 am (#45 of 178)
Is it possible that Dumbledore did not know about Tom's wand until the second wand chose Harry? It might have been that the second wand choosing Harry was only unusual because of the first one having chosen Riddle. Ollivander may not have thought anything peculiar about the first wand choosing Riddle until the second wand chose Harry.
Orion - Apr 12, 2009 9:56 am (#46 of 178)
Ollivander knew quite well and by heart that Voldie had the first Fawkes wand and he must have known that Fawkes was DD's companion so the thought that it was an unlikely coincidence that a Slytherin chose a partly firmly Gryffindor wand must have come to him. My opinion is still that Voldie got one of the best wands in the shop because wands choose their owners and a highly unusual wand is partial to a highly gifted young wizard, being completely neutral in the question what that young wizard wants to achieve with that wand.
Somehow I can't imagine that a wand says "no, I won't choose that one, he is morally dubious and probably wants world domination, he won't get me, he can have that stupid dragon wand in the corner". Wands are more likely to recognize magical talent than a good character. What would a wand know about ethics? Ethics are man-made and the result of discussion and compromise. Magical talent is natural, a natural force.
me and my shadow 813 - Apr 12, 2009 11:32 am (#47 of 178)
I had enquired in my initial post on this oddity whether professors know the components of each student's wand. I think they would: I can easily see the Teacher's Lounge having a large book or filing cabinet with basic information on each child. Filch had a filing cabinet so I am sure professors would as well. I feel that Dumbledore would, at the very least when keeping an eye on this strange and potentially problemmatic boy, check his file and the wand info would be included there. Given this idea, it is possible that Fawkes was not in Dumbledore's life (and so was not connected with Gryffindor / Sword / Dumbledore) until later so Dumbledore did not think it odd at all. Once Riddle became Voldemort, and once Fawkes was Dumbledore's companion, I find it highly likely that Fawkes "told" him that the wand core was his. Then, after the murders, Dumbledore went to Ollivander and offered another feather with the request that he be informed of who was chosen by the second wand.
Orion, I don't think a wand has "ethics", which is a mental exercise. To me a wand would feel drawn to its master, just as Buckbeak was toward Harry yet repelled by Draco. I don't see wandlore as any different. I want to call it "resonate" with each other.
Another analogy would be: wouldn't it be odd if "pleasant and handsome" Cedric's wand core was described as that of a "particularly deplorable and vicious dragon's heart"?
Solitaire - Apr 12, 2009 12:22 pm (#48 of 178)
I don't really think the professors would know about the kids' wands, unless there is a problem with one of them. Aside from the fact that teachers have enough stuff to keep track of, the more people (even teachers) who know such information, the more chance there is for it to get around to those who shouldn't know it. I just do not think there is anything to suggest that the teachers know whose wand contains what.
Besides, I think Snape, had he known about Harry's wand, would have seized the opportunity to make a few irritating comments about how Harry's wand could possibly have chosen him when he was not nearly as gifted as Voldemort had been. I believe that, with the exception of Dumbledore, no one else but Ollivander knew the important background of Harry's wand ... until the end of GoF. Even then, I think the knowledge was limited to a "need to know" basis.
Thom Matheson - Apr 12, 2009 5:13 pm (#49 of 178)
Not ever wand need be an Olivander wand. I don't imagine that Gregorivich communicated with Dumbledore on any regular basis, but someone going to Hogwarts could certainly buy their wand from him. AS Solitaire stated, I also think that the comparison was made only after Harry received his Phoenix wand and only Dumbledore knew about it, besides Harry, Olivander and maybe Hagrid, as he was there at the shop when it happened.
Ludicrous Patents Office - Apr 12, 2009 6:06 pm (#50 of 178)
SS Scholastic Hardbound pp. 84-85 Ollivander tries a Maple and Phoenix feather wand on Harry. So we know there has to be one other Phoenix. Ollivander was fascinated in SS and DH about how "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named did great things ---terrible, yes but great." I don't think the wand is good or evil. It is capable of doing great things. Ollivander was intrigued by the idea of Voldemort owning the Elder Wand because of the capacity to do amazing magic. LPO
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Solitaire - Apr 12, 2009 7:48 pm (#51 of 178)
You're right, Thom ... I'd forgotten Hagrid was present.
For those who are interested, there is a thread called Fawkes and other Phoenixes. Since the subject is being revived again, it might be good to put it on that thread. Just a suggestion that would make it easier to find in the future ...
Betelgeuse Black - Aug 3, 2009 5:33 am (#52 of 178)
I've been searching for a thread to ask about the taboo but I have come up empty so far. I can't imagine that this group has missed this issue but I haven't been able to find a discussion about it yet, especially without the search function.
My question is about the taboo of Voldemort's name. HRH use the name repeatedly in #12GP and nothing comes of it. As soon as they leave, the taboo is in force. Has anyone come up with a reason why the taboo doesn't work in #12GP?
rambkowalczyk - Aug 3, 2009 6:18 am (#53 of 178)
Maybe the taboo didn't work at 12GP, because of all the secrecy spells. Although it does say there were wizards hanging around there on Sept 1. How did they know to wait there?
Orion - Aug 3, 2009 6:32 am (#54 of 178)
I had the impression that Voldemort only set the taboo in motion when HBP was already halfway over, but I don't quite remember what Ron said exactly.
Betelgeuse Black - Aug 3, 2009 7:09 am (#55 of 178)
HRH had just escaped the DE's on Tottenham Court Road in the cafe prior to going to 12GP.
Ramb, Hermione mentioned that the DE's would know that Harry inherited 12GP. Lupin, in his visit, mentioned that the place would be swarming with DE's if they knew he was there. Lupin also stated that the DE's were watching all places connected with Harry. I tend to agree with Lupin that the DE's did not know they were at 12GP even after mentioning Voldemort by name several times.
The only thing I've thought of so far is the Fidelus Charm not being broken by the taboo or the unplottable stuff. I think this is a plot hole as some call it.
rambkowalczyk - Aug 3, 2009 9:27 am (#56 of 178)
I tend to agree with Lupin that the DE's did not know they were at 12GP even after mentioning Voldemort by name several times.
It is still possible that the Fidelus Charm or something the Blacks did is keeping the Death Eaters from getting too close to 12GP. When Harry and Hagrid were escaping Voldemort and going to the Tonks place, there was a barrier that kept Voldemort out.
When the trio used in London, the Death Eaters did not Apparate right next to them, but only in the vicinity. So if this hypothesis is true, then the Death Eaters would have surmised that the trio was around 12GP at least when saying his name.
Orion - Aug 3, 2009 12:04 pm (#57 of 178)
Yes, the cafe! I forgot. So the taboo exists practically all through DH and possibly earlier. So the DEs in front of 12GP could have been lured there by the taboo, but of course they couldn't see it.
Betelgeuse Black - Aug 3, 2009 12:51 pm (#58 of 178)
I'm glad both of you (Orion and Rambkowalczyk) appear to see my point.
I guess the issue I have is that the taboo is advertised as breaking charms that hide you, but that doesn't appear to apply at 12GP. I want JKR to tell me why! (stamping feet and pouting! :-) ) I may be making a big deal out of nothing, but it is one of the few things in the book that leaves me scratching my head. I can't stand the inconsistency without an explanation. I guess I'm being picky. :-)
Ron told us about the taboo breaking protective charms after the silver doe chapter. Then, when Greyback, et. al, caught them after Harry said Voldemort's name, all their protective charms had broken and the DE's found them right away.
I can accept that the taboo wouldn't change the invisibility cloak's power. I guess the Fidelus Charm is "more powerful" than the taboo.
Orion - Aug 3, 2009 12:57 pm (#59 of 178)
I guess that the powerful old charms which hid 12GP were stronger than jumped-up Voldemort's fancy taboo. They were virtually unbreakable. Old family, old magic. Voldemort is not invincible, as we learn in DH.
Solitaire - Aug 3, 2009 3:36 pm (#60 of 178)
I think Ramb is right that the use of Voldemort's name brought the DEs to Grimmauld Place. However, the protections that have been placed on it over the years, by Wizards like Dumbledore and even past generations of Blacks, are just so strong that they can't be completely overcome.
About Harry's Invisibility Cloak ... we are told that it is different from other Invisibility cloaks back at Xeno Lovegood's home, when they were reading about it in Beadle the Bard. It seems to be the one cloak in existence that cannot be countered by revealing charms and that never wears out. Since it was even able to evade Death, its owner, it seems acceptable that it would not be able to be Accio'd away ... rather like the Horcruxes could not be summoned by Accio.
Gerald Costales - Aug 3, 2009 9:57 pm (#61 of 178)
I didn't mind the taboo thingy. I just assumed the taboo thingy for whatever magic just didn't apply to 12 GP.
The plot hole that bugs me is that Griphook takes Gryffindor's sword at Gringott's. (And don't tell me that Griphook took the fake Sword. No Way.) But somehow the Sword comes out of the Sorting Hat to let Neville kill Nagini. My son came across a decent reason to explain it. But, I'm interested in what you all think happened.
mona amon - Aug 3, 2009 10:18 pm (#62 of 178)
Gryffindor's sword magically appears to anyone (or only Gryffindors?) who puts on the Sorting Hat and asks for help. It transported itself to the Hat from Dumbledore's office when Harry asks for help in the Chamber of Secrets, and it transports itself from wherever Griphook is keeping it to the Hat when Neville asks for help.
What's your son's theory, Gerald?
Solitaire - Aug 3, 2009 10:24 pm (#63 of 178)
I believe the Sword magically returned to the Sorting Hat, because it is truly Gryffindor's Sword rather than the Goblins' sword, as Griphook claimed. Is it possible that it was enchanted, so that it always returned to the Hat, once the need for it was over? Of course, that would mean that the real sword had always been in the Hat since Harry first used it, until it was taken by Snape for Harry to pull from the pond ... and the sword that had been in view in Dumbledore's office since then had been a fake all along. Oh, I don't know what I'm saying. It's 11:23 p.m., and I'm just speculating.
Edit: While I was mulling over and composing my post, I see that Mona has said something similar. GMTA
Gerald Costales - Aug 4, 2009 5:23 am (#64 of 178)
My son was on a gaming site and they had a Potter thread. This was their take - Gryffindor's Sword belonged to Hogwarts. So, the Sword returned to Hogwarts.
It's like the Elder Wand thing. Voldemort held the Elder Wand but never had true Mastery of the Wand. Griphook had the Sword but the true owner of the Sword is and was Hogwarts. So, the Sword returned to Hogwarts.
Hieronymus Graubart - Aug 4, 2009 7:43 am (#65 of 178)
Gryffindor's sword magically appears to anyone (or only Gryffindors?) who puts on the Sorting Hat and asks for help.(Mona Amon)
Dumbledore implied in CS that only a "true Gryffindor" could pull Gryffindors sword out of the hat.
It transported itself to the Hat from Dumbledore's office when Harry asks for help in the Chamber of Secrets, ... (Mona Amon)
We don?t know if the sword was in Dumbledore?s office before Harry pulled it out of the hat. Harry was in Dumbledore?s office at least once before he slayed the basilisk and he never mentioned a sword, so I assume it wasn?t there.
I believe the Sword magically returned to the Sorting Hat, because it is truly Gryffindor's Sword rather than the Goblins' sword, as Griphook claimed. ...(Solitaire)
The sword was not hidden in the Sorting Hat before Snape took it to the pond for Harry, it was hidden behind Dumbledore?s portrait.
But you are right: it is Gryffindor's Sword and it is enchanted. This sword may be "lost" for many years (no wizard knowing where its is) like it was "lost" for the wizarding society after Griphook had taken it, but nobody can keep it forever. It will always come from wherever it is whenever a true Gryffindor needs its help.
In my impression the Sword which came out of the Hat like a white rabbit was always the idea of the Sword, but at the same time a solid, sharp sword. I can't imagine that in the very moment when the thing drops out of the hat it disappears from DD's office or whereever. A big Sword like that wouldn't even fit into a hat! So it comes out of the Hat like out of the beaded bag - but it can be at two times at once, IMO. The everyday business of the Sword isn't touched by appearances in the Hat.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 4, 2009 3:25 pm (#67 of 178)
I have always felt that it is the Hat which is "magical" regarding when and to whom the Sword appears, not the Sword itself. In other words, I think Godric bewitched the Hat to be like a portal for the Sword, since it was his hat. Sort of like a permanent Portkey for the Sword so it could go to the Worthy Caller wherever he or she was. I do think the Sword disappears from DD's office (or wherever) when it answers a call.
Gerald Costales - Aug 4, 2009 8:42 pm (#68 of 178)
The Sword gives the Series an Arthurian twist. Even the image of the Sword in the Pond is similiar to the Lady in the Lake and Excaliber. Also, the image of a True Gryffindor pulling the Sword from the Sorting Hat mirrors the image of Arthur pulling Excaliber from the Stone.
The Sword is definitely enchanted. But, we know that the Sword is Goblin made. Maybe the Magic of Gryffindor's Sword is part Goblin. We can't really give all the credit of the Sword's magical properties to only Wizard Magic.
Silly Wand carriers. Swords are for Goblins.
Hieronymus Graubart - Aug 4, 2009 11:11 pm (#69 of 178)
Silly Wand carriers. Swords are for Goblins.
But don't you think that Godric Gryffindor was a wizarding knight? Chivalry is the first Gryffindor trait.
Gerald Costales - Aug 5, 2009 5:11 am (#70 of 178)
There is no Wizard nobility. Despite, Voldemort's self claimed title of Lord. Or Snapes self titled Half-blood Prince nickname. Godric was Knight like. And Godric maybe considered Wizarding Royalty. Just like Michael Jackson was the King of Pop.
I'm sure Gryffindor put some Magical extras on his Sword. But, it's like buying a car. You put your personal touches. But, a Goblin made sword is first a Goblin made sword. The pine scented air freshner, CD player, wheels, paint job, etc. doesn't change the basic car.
Steve Newton - Aug 5, 2009 5:21 am (#71 of 178)
I just can't get enough of the Trix references.
Gerald Costales - Aug 5, 2009 5:33 am (#72 of 178)
The Sword like a rabbit is pulled out a hat.
Nothing up my sleeve. . .
Solitaire - Aug 5, 2009 3:30 pm (#73 of 178)
Well, it certainly was not in the Sorting Hat when Harry dived into the pool to get it. Did Snape have to pull it from the Sorting Hat and take it to the pool? If so, then Snape would be a true Gryffindor--hence Dumbledore's comment about sorting too soon.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 5, 2009 4:27 pm (#74 of 178)
I personally don't think the *only* way the Sword can leave its case is via the Sorting Hat. Severus hand-delivered the Sword, so it did not require the Sorting Hat to get to the "pool". However, when the Sword is called by one worthy of it, and it seems it doesn't have the capacity to sail through the air on its own, the Sorting Hat does the sailing and then acts as a portal of sorts for the Sword to travel from the case to the Hat and the worthy one calling. JM2K, of course.
edit: Soli, if you meant Severus could only get the Sword out of the case if he was a worthy Gryffindor, I don't know about that.
Solitaire - Aug 5, 2009 4:30 pm (#75 of 178)
Shadow, I would love for Jo to give a bit more information about the connection between the Sword and the Sorting Hat. It is one of those things I accept via my willing suspension of disbelief, but I think there is probably an important connection that could use a bit of explanation.
Gerald Costales - Aug 5, 2009 5:45 pm (#76 of 178)
I think most anyone should be able to handle Gryffindor's Sword. (The Sword isn't cursed.) And there are examples of House-Elves (I think) and Goblins (Griphook) handling the Sword.
The Sorting Hat delivering the Sword must just be a situation of "Special Chivalry". In the last chapter of Book 7, Voldemort summons the Sorting Hat "dangled, (it) empty and ragged" then places the empty Hat on Neville's head.
rambkowalczyk - Aug 5, 2009 6:01 pm (#77 of 178)
Just as the Elder wand has an affinity to power, the Gryffindor sword has an affinity to bravery, chivalry, noble cause? The Sword in order to work properly must be earned somehow, which I suppose is why Snape had to submerge the sword and not just leave it by Harry's tent.
Solitaire - Aug 5, 2009 6:54 pm (#78 of 178)
"Now, Severus, the sword! Do not forget that it must be taken under conditions of need and valor ..."
Gerald Costales - Aug 5, 2009 8:48 pm (#79 of 178)
re: post #76
". . . which I suppose is why Snape had to submerge the sword and not just leave it by Harry's tent." rambkowalczyk
Even Ron couldn't find Harry and Hermione because of the enchantments that they had cast to hide themselves. I think many of us have come to despise Snape for one thing or another during the Series. So, it is hard to give Snape the credit he deserves.
. ."Albus Severus," Harry said quietly, so nobody but Ginny could hear, and she was tactful enough to pretend to be waving to Rose, who was now on the train, "you were named for two headmasters of Hogwarts. One of them was a Slytherin and he was probably the bravest man I ever knew."
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .DH - American edition page 758
I defer to Harry. Snape deserved to hold Gryffindor's Sword for his bravery.
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 6, 2009 5:25 am (#80 of 178)
Just as the Elder wand has an affinity to power, the Gryffindor sword has an affinity to bravery, chivalry, noble cause? The Sword in order to work properly must be earned somehow, which I suppose is why Snape had to submerge the sword and not just leave it by Harry's tent.-- rambkowalczyk
I think it works metaphorically, and I think Rowling thinks metaphorically. But logically, not so much. Dumbledore had the sword there in his office, and used it to destroy the Ring after he had put it on and blackened his hand. Never do we hear that Dumbledore needed to do some equivalent to icy pool jumping in order to use the sword. If the destruction of the Horcrux itself counts as need and valor, then Harry should be able to just have the sword, and use it when the need and valor arose, without the need to first jump into an icy pool.
I think what was missing from the tale was a logical demonstration of why the icy pool was necessary given the inconsistency of when it was shown the sword could be held and used, and that is why the "need and valor" explanation is more baffling than enlightening.
mona amon - Aug 6, 2009 8:17 am (#81 of 178)
I completely agree with you about the icy pond, Mrs Brisbee. Also, I never understood why jumping into ice cold water showed valour. The ability to steel yourself to do something highly unpleasant, maybe, but valour?
Gerald Costales - Aug 6, 2009 11:33 am (#82 of 178)
Snape couldn't make the sudden appearance of the Sword too obvious. Snape?s love of Lily made him pledge his loyalty to Dumbledore and Lily?s son, Harry. But, Harry is also James? son. And we all know how Snape hated James. (Why make the appearance of the Sword too easy. ) The Sword in the Pond is symbolic. Submersion in water has been symbolic of rebirth.
Harry maybe take the first plunge. But, it?s Ron who needs to redeem himself. Ron abandoned the Quest for the Horcruxes. And Ron?s rescue of Harry gives Ron the right to rejoin the Trio as an equal.
Here was my take on Gryffindor?s Sword in the Pond.
"The Sword gives the Series an Arthurian twist. Even the image of the Sword in the Pond is similiar to the Lady in the Lake and Excalibur. Also, the image of a True Gryffindor pulling the Sword from the Sorting Hat mirrors the image of Arthur pulling Excalibur from the Stone.".
Gerald Costales, "+ Things which struck you as "odd" (Part II)" #68, 4 Aug 2009 9:42 pm
Julia H. - Aug 6, 2009 3:40 pm (#83 of 178)
Dumbledore had the sword there in his office, and used it to destroy the Ring after he had put it on and blackened his hand. Never do we hear that Dumbledore needed to do some equivalent to icy pool jumping in order to use the sword. (Mrs Brisbee)
I can imagine that the Headmaster of Hogwarts is a Great Exception. At least a Gryffindor Headmaster. He is able to use the sword without jumping into a pool first, but no one else. The Sword belongs to Hogwarts, after all, now that Gryffindor is dead.
I see Snape delivering the Sword to Harry as a symbolic act proving that Snape is a "Gryffindor", too. But I don't think there has to be any special magic for Snape to physically carry the Sword.
I like the Arthurian connection and also submersion as the symbol of rebirth. Just before meeting the Silver Doe and finding the Sword, Harry seems to be in an apparently hopeless situation. He has only one friend left (for all he knows), he has lost his wand, he feels he was deceived by Dumbledore etc. After this meeting and this submersion, things begin to improve: Ron returns, one more Horcrux is destroyed, and the Trio keep receiving help from various sources. With a different symbolism, it is interesting that Harry has to submerge in the Slytherin element (water) to obtain Gryffindor's Sword (delivered to him by Snape).
I don't think the Sword is permanently in the Hat. It was in Bella's vault for a while without any problems. It can come out of the Hat when it is "called for" by a Gryffindor wearing the Hat, but it does not have to be in it all the time. I also imagine that the Sword is in one place at a time, so it disappears from the other place when it comes out of the Hat.
There is no Wizard nobility. (Gerald Costales)
We are told that, but then what do we make of the Bloody Baron and Sir Nicholas Whatshisname?
Puck - Aug 6, 2009 4:25 pm (#84 of 178)
Was the sword ever on Bella's vault? I thought that was the fake one?
Choices - Aug 6, 2009 4:46 pm (#85 of 178)
The Bloody Baron and Sir Nick are ghosts - do we know for sure that they were wizards in their lifetime? **Sorry, my memory fails me** Maybe someone remembers if they were or were not.
Julia H. - Aug 6, 2009 4:51 pm (#86 of 178)
Was the sword ever on Bella's vault? I thought that was the fake one? (Puck)
My mistake. You are absolutely right. It was behind DD's portrait.
Choices, I think they were.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 6, 2009 5:42 pm (#87 of 178)
Hm. Now I have another thing which strikes me as odd. Thanks, Choices! That is, if the Wizarding World does not have titles such as Prince, then the Bloody *Baron* is likely not a wizard, for that is a title of nobility/royalty (under a Duke, I think). On that note, does the WW have religious orders? It seems not, so the Fat *Friar* might not be a wizard either. Am I missing something, too?
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 6, 2009 5:51 pm (#88 of 178)
I always thought "Baron" and "Sir" were their Muggle-world designations. I was under the impression that wizards hadn't fully broken off from the Muggle world until several centuries ago, and they likely lived their lives more integrated, if still keeping their magical powers on the lowdown. Likely the Fat Friar was really a friar in a normal Muggle order, at that.
Solitaire - Aug 6, 2009 9:49 pm (#89 of 178)
Do we know for certain if the Baron and Sir Nicholas were from pureblood families? Could there have been Muggle nobility in their pasts? I'm not sure what to say about the Fat Friar. I don't see why he couldn't have lived in a monastery, if he'd wanted to do so!
Julia H. - Aug 7, 2009 12:37 am (#90 of 178)
I think they had to be wizards because I can remember Nick telling Harry at the end of OotP that only wizards could choose between going on and becoming ghosts after dying. It this is so, all ghosts must have been wizards or witches.
There seem to be two possibilities: One is, as Mrs Brisbee says, that they held these titles among Muggles in the first place, but kept them as parts of their names in the wizarding world as well.
The other possibility is that a wizarding nobility existed a thousand years ago and five hundred years ago, but not any more. The reason why I think it is possible is Voldemort's fascination with the title "Lord". Why would he want to call himself "Lord" if it was a purely Muggle thing??? He hated everything Muggle, and he would not want to betray his Muggle upbringing by using a Muggle title. If, however, there used to be lords in the medieval wizarding society, then Voldemort being a "Lord" would be a sign of his interest in everything old and venerable in the wizarding world. After all, for him, Slytherin was his most important ancestor, he "collected" valuable heirlooms from the founders; therefore it would be logical if his name was also a connection to the age of the founders rather than to something so conspicuously Muggle.
Steve Newton - Aug 7, 2009 5:44 am (#91 of 178)
Julia is right. Nick tells Harry at the end of OOTP that you have to be a wizard to become a ghost.
However, Nick and the BB may have gotten their noble status from the Muggle world. Or, perhaps, times have changed and the WW once had nobility but no more.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 7, 2009 8:41 am (#92 of 178)
I didn't give it enough thought before posting, actually. As the Statute of Secrecy was only put into affect in 1692, I'm sure you are all correct that these are Muggle titles, that the line between the two worlds -- within one's own life -- was not as distinct as it became post-Statute. JM2K.
Orion - Aug 7, 2009 4:44 pm (#93 of 178)
I saw the film the second time today and it struck me as odd that the basin in the grotto filled itself with poisonous potion again after Regulus had planted the fake locket. Did the basin have a fill-itself-after-locket-touchdown-whether-real-or-false-funktion?
Gerald Costales - Aug 8, 2009 6:14 pm (#94 of 178)
Did the basin have a fill-itself-after-locket-touchdown-whether-real-or-false-funktion?
Puck - Aug 10, 2009 10:17 am (#95 of 178)
I'm not if this is "odd", but as I am not sure where else to put it.....
Son is reading PS/SS and was telling me about how he is at the part where Harry is in the forbidden forest with Hagrid. The two of us had a laugh about "Mars is bright tonight." Then I realized that I don't remember if this was ever really explained. Do we know the meaning of that comment? Did we ever discover what Mars' luminescent quality has to do with Harry and the return of LV?
Solitaire - Aug 10, 2009 10:41 am (#96 of 178)
Mars is the god of War. Perhaps the comment had something to do with seeing conflict looming ahead.
Madam Pince - Aug 10, 2009 1:40 pm (#97 of 178)
Going back a bit here, but...
I completely agree with you about the icy pond, Mrs Brisbee. Also, I never understood why jumping into ice cold water showed valour. The ability to steel yourself to do something highly unpleasant, maybe, but valour? --mona amon
I agree, mona! Glad it's not just me. That always bothered me a little. I thought it was quite a bit of a stretch to call it "brave" for him to jump into the icy water. Maybe it's a technicality and I'm a nitpicker, but still... that's not what I'd call bravery. To me, bravery implies danger or a risk of severe injury or death, not just getting a bit chilly. (And no, I won't buy it that he might've frozen to death, either...)
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 10, 2009 2:29 pm (#98 of 178)
Soli, that was my impression.
Regarding the icy pond, I went swimming off the coast of Vancouver on New Year's Eve one year... I sure felt brave!
Julia H. - Aug 10, 2009 2:53 pm (#99 of 178)
I would not advise any Muggles to jump into an icy pool without some training and proper medical examination beforehand. It is not about freezing to death, the question is whether one's heart can bear it or not. On the other hand, there are people who consider swimming in icy pools or rivers a healthy hobby. They are probably right, too, - everything depends on the conditions.
Wizards must be tough though, and I don't think Snape would have thought of the icy pool task if there had been a realistic danger of Harry dying there. (Snape did not know about the locket Horcrux around Harry's neck, of course.) So basically, I think it was about braving the cold (extreme cold) - not mortal danger but something very, very unpleasant with the purpose of getting the sword. There are several kinds of courage. In this case, it was a sort of sacrifice (and voluntary sacrifices require courage), and Harry had to do something that he did not like doing at all - and yet it was not supposed to be anything truly lethal or even anything that would injure Harry, who had quite enough trouble without one more injury.
Puck - Aug 10, 2009 4:36 pm (#100 of 178)
God of war! Ahhh, I will have to tell Son. You are all so smart!
Gosh, it takes me s bit of bravery to dunk under the lake water in the summer!
Agreed, Julia, about there being many types of bravery. What is simple for some, takes great courage for another. And yes, your body can go into shock from jumping into freezing water like that.
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Solitaire - Aug 10, 2009 5:20 pm (#101 of 178)
Snape had to conceal the sword in a way that Harry would have to work to get it. Perhaps the pool was the best thing at hand. Besides, Harry had never taken swimming lessons and wasn't a very good swimmer, as we find out in GoF Ch. 25. It surely took bravery for him to have to dive nearly naked into a freezing cold pool in the dead of winter, swim to the bottom, and pull up Gryffindor's sword.
mona amon - Aug 10, 2009 8:14 pm (#102 of 178)
I still don't feel it's 'brave' in the sense that we normally associate with a sword. I re-read the passage and was amused to find that Harry couldn't see the point, either.
"With fumbling fingers Harry started to remove his many layers of clothing. Where 'chivalry' entered into this, he thought ruefully, he was not entirely sure, unless it counted as chivalrous that he was not calling for Hermione to do it in his stead."
Gerald Costales - Aug 10, 2009 8:59 pm (#103 of 178)
A Hero, and Harry is a Hero, must suffer any number of tasks/trials/ordeals/labors. Some are more difficult than others.
Labors of Hercules
1.Slay the Nemean Lion.
2.Slay the 9-headed Lernaean Hydra.
3.Capture the Golden Hind of Artemis.
4.Capture the Erymanthian Boar.
5.Clean the Augean stables in a single day.
6.Slay the Stymphalian Birds.
7.Capture the Cretan Bull.
8.Steal the Mares of Diomedes.
9.Obtain the Girdle of the Amazon Queen.
10.Obtain the Cattle of the Monster Geryon.
11.Steal the Apples of the Hesperides.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Hercules' 5th labor isn't especially heroic. So, Harry getting the Sword from the Pond isn't like the task of breaking in MoM to get the Locket or breaking into Gringott's to get the Cup.
IMHO - I think the Sword in the Pond allowed Ron to return as Hero(or at least with equal status as Harry and Hermione who had stayed the course) and not like a Dog with his Tail between his legs.
mona amon - Aug 10, 2009 10:54 pm (#104 of 178)
Good point about Ron, Gerald. Ron's saving Harry's life, and fishing out the sword in the process, is definitely a valiant deed, and it's he who uses the sword to destroy the Horcrux.
Solitaire - Aug 10, 2009 11:20 pm (#105 of 178)
I think the Sword in the Pond allowed Ron to return as Hero
Although it took Hermione a while to be reconciled to the idea! LOL
I love the fact that a different person destroys each of the Horcruxes. I find it interesting, though, that Ron was the one who got the Chamber open, yet he had Hermione destroy the Cup. Interesting ...
I really liked the fact that Neville seems to step into the gap left by Harry in two places. First, he takes over leading the Hogwarts "resistance" movement. Then, when he believes Harry is dead (as does everyone else immediately present), he is the one to take the sword and kill Nagini without a second thought. Neville is totally a hero! He has come so far from the little kid who was afraid of everything and was forever losing his toad!
Puck - Aug 11, 2009 7:43 am (#106 of 178)
My MIL has a horrible fear of water. She said it took ages to get over her face getting wet while washing her hair. Perhaps Snape shares this fear (which explains a few things ). Therefore, to the one hiding the sword, the freezing water would take extreme bravery. Plus, the enjoyment of making James' son do something altogether unpleasant.
mona amon - Aug 11, 2009 9:22 am (#107 of 178)
Plus, the enjoyment of making James' son do something altogether unpleasant.
I always wondered if that wasn't a part of it!
Orion - Aug 11, 2009 9:24 am (#108 of 178)
Soul Search - Aug 11, 2009 10:48 am (#109 of 178)
"Plus, the enjoyment of making James' son do something altogether unpleasant." (Puck)
Well spotted. Might be more to that. If I think back to the scene where Snape is discussing getting the sword to Harry, do I detect a hint of mild amusement?
As Snape is leaving Dumbledore's study, he says to the portrait "Don't worry Dumbledore," he said coolly. "I have a plan. ..."
This was the last pensieve scene in "A Prince's Tale," well after we had read "The Silver Doe," so I think I missed the flavor of it.
Madam Pince - Aug 11, 2009 11:17 am (#110 of 178)
I was never clear exactly what the "I have a plan..." was supposed to refer to. (It's probably perfectly obvious and I'm just dense...) So do you think it meant putting the sword in the pond?
Soul Search - Aug 11, 2009 2:06 pm (#111 of 178)
All Snape knew was that Harry was "in the forest of Dean." And, the Sword had to be taken "under conditions of need and valor" (whatever that means.) Would Snape know the Forest of Dean or where Harry was camping? Not likely. All Snape knew was Dumbledore had ordered him to intereact with Harry in some clandestine way. Snape could do anything. Remember, in their last encounter Harry had tried to hex Snape and had called him "coward." (And Buckbeak sunk his claws into Snape's back, which we never heard anything about.) Time for some payback.
So, Snape went to the Forest, found Harry (how?,) looked around and decided having Harry jump into an icy pond in winter would be a good trick. He dropped the Sword in the pond and used his patronus to lead Harry there. Using his Patronus must have been "the plan. ..."
Snape didn't figure on Harry wearing the locket chain, so the situation could have gone easily very bad. Fortunately Ron came along and Snape didn't have to go and save Harry from his "plan." That would have been interesting; imagine Harry bringing Snape back to Hermione.
Anyway, Snape's plan was to use his patronus to lure Harry to where Harry had to do something unpleasant, and maybe a little dangerous (for "need and valor") to retrieve the Sword. Snape knew from Dumbledore's mysterious commands Harry would do anything to get the sword. He just didn't know why.
No doubt Snape, watching from behind the forked tree, enjoyed seeing Harry strip and jump into the icy pond. Snape would have seen James jumping into the pond. What a treat! Might have become a bit nervous when Harry didn't come up right away, but Ron came and saved the day for Harry ... and Snape.
I think if I had read the pensieve scene then the pond scene I would have picked up on these nuances more easily. I mean, when reading the pensieve scene I am still getting over Snape's death. Bit of a distraction.
Thanks Puck for pointing out what is (now) obvious.
Puck - Aug 11, 2009 2:19 pm (#112 of 178)
Thanks! It's rare that I don't say something that everyone else hasn't already thought of. (I remember how clever I thought I was for figuring out who RAB was, and then I came hear, and pretty much everyone had figured it out.)
Solitaire - Aug 11, 2009 3:39 pm (#113 of 178)
magine Harry bringing Snape back to Hermione
I don't think Snape could have brought Harry back. Didn't Dumbledore say, "You must not be seen," or words to that effect?
Julia H. - Aug 11, 2009 3:56 pm (#114 of 178)
Still, I suppose Snape would rather be seen than watch Harry die in the pond. Without Harry, Dumbledore's plan would go to pieces. Actually, I would have liked a scene with Snape saving Harry's life and revealing his true goals. Harry bringing Snape back to Hermione could have been a great scene, too. (Ron's return is great as well, but perhaps there would have been a way to combine the two. )
As for Snape's plan, I think he had to plan two things:
1. The conditions of valor and need necessary for Harry to get the sword, without really risking Harry's life (how could Snape have thought that Harry would dive with a Horcrux around his neck, when Dumbledore apparently did not even tell him what Harry's task was?)
2. The way he could lead Harry to the sword - he could not contact him personally, but he needed to find a "messenger" that Harry would trust.
Snape's "I have a plan" sentence makes me think he has had this plan for a while.
Solitaire - Aug 11, 2009 5:40 pm (#115 of 178)
Snape couldn't be seen. It was too risky, given Harry's inability to use Occlumency properly. I believe Snape had probably been trying to work out how he could help Harry for some time ... how he could get close to him, if he needed to do so.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 11, 2009 6:59 pm (#116 of 178)
So, Snape went to the Forest, found Harry (how?,) looked around and decided having Harry jump into an icy pond in winter would be a good trick. He dropped the Sword in the pond and used his patronus to lead Harry there. Using his Patronus must have been "the plan. ..." - Soul Search
Severus could fly by that point, so I am assuming he circled overhead at the Forest of Dean, saw the tent and settled into a grove nearby. I agree he might have enjoyed causing Harry (James by default) quite a shock to the system.
But for me it is so bittersweet, the passage with the doe, and that Severus knew Harry would follow the doe, probably to the ends of the Earth, just as Severus himself would have done at that point, if it had been Lily's Patronus and not his own.
Solitaire - Aug 11, 2009 7:04 pm (#117 of 178)
At this point in time, given his belief that Harry was more or less being sent to his death (based on my understanding of The Prince's Tale), Snape might not have been thinking about making his life any more miserable than it already was.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 11, 2009 7:20 pm (#118 of 178)
Yes, the shock Severus displayed when hearing of that plan was quite revealing of his evolution.
What are we discussing that is odd, again? Oh yeah, "valor".
Gerald Costales - Aug 11, 2009 7:41 pm (#119 of 178)
re: post #116
"Severus could fly by that point, so I am assuming he circled overhead at the Forest of Dean, saw the tent and settled into a grove nearby." MAMS
Snape can fly. But, wasn't the tent unplottable and hidden by other enchantments? The patronuses, when used as a messenger, seem to work independent of their owners. The silver doe had no message. Maybe, the doe?s job was to lure Harry to the Pond with the Sword.
Snape was lucky Ron was there. But, Harry should have removed the Locket before diving in.
The mistakes Harry makes seem to turn out okay. Later, Harry said Voldemort's name and the Snatchers captured them. But, then the Snatchers took them to Malfoy's Mansion.
At the Mansion, Mr. Ollivander, Dean, and Luna are found and later they?re freed by Dobby. But, the most important event that happened at the Mansion was that Harry became Master of the Elder Wand.
So, the story has its reasons even when it looked like someone blundered or something unexpected happened. At the end of HBP when Snape killed Dumbledore - How many of us Cursed Snape? Or should that be Hexed?
We've got to forgive Snape. Harry did.
. ."Albus Severus,"Harry said quietly, so nobody but Ginny could hear, and she was tactful enough to pretend to be waving to Rose, who was now on the train, "you were named for two headmasters of Hogwarts. One of them was a Slytherin and he was probably the bravest man I ever knew."
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .DH - American edition - page 758
Julia H. - Aug 12, 2009 12:49 am (#120 of 178)
It is indeed touching how trustingly Harry follows the Doe, and Snape watches him doing it. What is more, he has expected Harry to do just that.
I think Snape Apparated to the forest, and looked for a place where he could hide the sword, then sent the Doe to find Harry. A Patronus may be able to find a place despite the magical protection, in which case Snape himself did not have to know where Harry was. Before the coming of the Doe, Harry was sitting in the darkness, thinking of the night when he had met Quirrell in the Forbidden Forest - and he thought he could even hear the sounds that a long cloak could be making among the trees. He convinced himself that he had only imagined the sounds, but I think it was Snape in his travelling cloak passing near the tent. It is an interesting question whether Snape noticed the tent or not...
It is possible that Snape could think of a way to rescue Harry without being seen. In any case, he would have had to do something if Ron had not come. Later, Ron told Harry that he had seen something moving by the oak trees. It must have been Snape ready to rescue Harry, but then he must have seen Ron, too, and decided that his help was not needed.
The mistakes Harry makes seem to turn out okay. (Gerald)
Yes, that's the way with book heroes.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 12, 2009 9:29 am (#121 of 178)
Yes, the plan to me was obviously based on their mutual fascination with the doe and what it represents to them both, albeit Harry did not put 1+1 together to associate it with his mother -- stag/doe (or am I forgetting something?). But Severus knew it was the perfect "lure" to get Harry to the Sword. Not "odd", but I wonder if it irked Severus that her Patronus, the very Patronus he cannot help but have, is the partner of James's. He must have such mixed feelings whenever he conjures it.
Madam Pince - Aug 12, 2009 9:45 am (#122 of 178)
Not "odd", but I wonder if it irked Severus that her Patronus, the very Patronus he cannot help but have, is the partner of James's. He must have such mixed feelings whenever he conjures it. --MAMS
I wondered that too. He couldn't help but be reminded of James (and of James and Lily's relationship) every time he saw her patronus (and his own patronus.) What a big ol' downer. No wonder he was always so grumpy.
Solitaire - Aug 12, 2009 1:22 pm (#123 of 178)
I was going to say that perhaps Harry trusted the Patronus because he had never seen anyone evil make one ... but that is not true. He had seen Umbridge make one, and she is about as nasty as they come. Drat! There goes that theory!
reminded of James (and of James and Lily's relationship) every time he saw her patronus (and his own patronus.)
Madam Pince, perhaps that is why Snape did not like to use the Patronus to dispel Dementors.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 12, 2009 2:45 pm (#124 of 178)
Probably, Soli. That and (for messaging) not everyone in the Order knew of his history with Lily, but they knew Lily and what her Patronus was (so 1+1= Severus must hold a torch for Lily).
Regarding the visibility of the tent, I can't recall all of Hermione's spells. Is unplottable to mean that, once you know the location, it is still invisible? Did she do an invisibility spell? I don't think the tent was like a Fidelius, although it had a lot of protection. I guess I'll go investigate...
edit: Okay, here are some of the more obscure protective spells she used, with Lexicon definitions:
Cave Inimicum -- Defensive spell to keep enemies away.
Salvio hexia -- "salvia" L. without breaking + "hexia" hexes -- Effect unknown, but the wording seems to suggest that this affects the various other spells being casts.
Protego Totalum "Shield Charm" -- This spell creates a magical barrier that will deflect hexes thrown at the caster.
Puck - Aug 12, 2009 6:05 pm (#125 of 178)
Ahh, Snape was not truly an enemy, now was he?
Gerald Costales - Aug 12, 2009 6:29 pm (#126 of 178)
Snape was one of the people you loved to hate. Along with Marietta Edgecombe, Umbridge, etc. Snape is such a mystery. The Prince's Tale chapter of DH just scratches the surface of Snape.
I keep using that quote by Harry about Snape " . . . he was probably the bravest man I ever knew.".
But, Snape as a Good Guy is still a bitter pill to swallow. Snape didn't give much to Harry. Snape did drop that Sword in that Icy Pond after all.
But, Harry must have forgiven Snape. Harry and Ginny's last son is Albus Severus. And we know Harry was not proud of how James treated Snape. Harry by the end of series is like Dumbledore. Dumbledore was willing to forgive anyone.
PS By the way, it's okay to hate Umbridge.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 12, 2009 10:01 pm (#127 of 178)
Puck, it's hard to tell if or how the spell would know. Does a spell "read" the person's intent or does it know if someone has a Dark Mark, for instance.
Puck - Aug 13, 2009 3:19 am (#128 of 178)
True, and it must not have only worked on enemies, because Ron had trouble seeing them as well, remember?
I guess we should just go with Snape send the patronus off to find Harry.
Solitaire - Aug 13, 2009 8:32 am (#129 of 178)
Perhaps Hermione considered him an enemy of sorts at the time!
Gerald Costales - Aug 13, 2009 2:08 pm (#130 of 178)
I finished rereading book 7 a couple of week ago. Well, it had been awhile since I had reread book 7, and OMG!!! The way Hermione went after poor Ron.
Just think what Hermione would had done if Ron hadn't saved Harry. Like Harry and his blunders, Ron's path to help Harry and his Quest for the remaining Horcruxes needed Ron to abandon the group.
Dumbledore must have known Ron could/would abandon the Trio or why else would Dumbledore have left Ron with the Deluminator?
I wouldn't put it past Hermione to consider Ron an enemy (of sorts).
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 13, 2009 6:56 pm (#131 of 178)
Dumbledore must have known Ron could/would abandon the Trio or why else would Dumbledore have left Ron with the Deluminator?-- Gerald Costales
Ron seemed to think Dumbledore thought so, but it seemed rather farfetched to me. I think that there are a lot of ways to lose Harry without necessarily abandoning him-- for one thing, he tends to wander off on his own even into danger, and also with Voldemort's lot looking for him there was also a strong possibility of him being captured. So whether Dumbledore thought Ron would leave, or Harry rush into danger alone, or Death Eater interference would cause them to lose track of each other, perhaps Dumbledore thought giving them a means to get back together was a good idea. Of course, with no explanation of what, why, and how included, because this is Dumbledore we're talking about .
Gerald Costales - Aug 13, 2009 10:09 pm (#132 of 178)
re: post #131 -
"Of course, with no explanation of what, why, and how included, because this is Dumbledore we're talking about." Mrs.Brisbee
Good points Mrs. Brisbee.
Even with more detailed instructions, the Trio were bound to fail once in a while. That's just human nature.
Harry's blunder had the Trio captured and taken to the Malfoy's Mansion. But, the Deluminator did prove extremely useful when Harry and Ron were tossed in the dunegon.
Dumbledore was certainly short on instruction. But, Dumbledore more times than not knew or had a good idea what might happen. Otherwise Harry would have died in the forest and Harry would have never made it to King's Cross.
Despite everything, Dumbledore proved he was just that good.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 27, 2009 6:07 pm (#133 of 178)
Rather than continue on the Harry thread, I thought I'd pose the question here. I was wondering if anyone else found it "odd" that Vold did not use the Floo Network to get Harry out of Hogwarts, and for himself to get in, if that was the whole reason for the two-way Portkey.
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 27, 2009 6:17 pm (#134 of 178)
Just like Portkeys, the limitations of the Floo Network, whatever they might be, are not explained. How many examples of Floo travel do we have to and from Hogwarts? Can it even be done without special permission?
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 27, 2009 7:16 pm (#135 of 178)
Thanks, Mrs B, but I think I answered my own question -- In HBP the students returned to Hogwarts via Floo but it says it was a "one-off" connection.
The Floo was used by Sirius and Harry to communicate at Hogwarts but apparently there is a difference between only using it for your head and to transport. *shrug*
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 28, 2009 7:19 am (#136 of 178)
I am still not satisfied, however, because the Floo Network was described as a "one-off" after they reinforced protection on the castle in HBP. So, my original statement on the Harry thread still holds. In GoF and OOTP, when we see Harry and Sirius using this Network between #12GP and Hogwarts DADA Office and Gryffindor Common Room, there was no restriction on it. This means to me that Crouch-Moody could have used the Floo Network to get Harry out and Vold in to the school.
My basic point here is the plot of GoF (my least favorite book BTW) has holes. There are holes in the Portkey itself and in the fact that Crouch could have taken Harry at any time. I can accept that they wait until Vold was strong enough to rebirth, but other than that the suspension of disbelief is at its greatest in this book IMO.
Solitaire - Aug 28, 2009 7:22 pm (#137 of 178)
I thought Voldemort didn't want people to know he was back just yet. That would really have alerted everyone if Harry had been kidnapped out of Hogwarts. If a dead Harry and Cedric had both been sent back to Hogwarts dead and grasping the cup (but w/o Voldemort), wouldn't it have been assumed that both died in the maze?
Besides, Voldy wanted to make a big, dramatic splash with his rebirthing. He wanted all of his DEs present, and he wanted to punish, forgive, etc. He loved making big speeches and having people kneel to him. He also wanted to have Harry Potter, the big Triwizard Champion, be defeated in front of everyone. Doing it privately, before Harry had won, wouldn't have been as big a deal, IMO.
Don't try to understand Voldemort ... remember that he does not always think things through properly (which is why Harry was able to beat him in the end).
Honour - Aug 29, 2009 2:56 am (#138 of 178)
Weren't the flu networks being monitored by someone in the MOM loyal to Umbridge (and inturn the Auror's and the Minister) during OOTP? Voldy's spies at the MOM would be aware of this and report back to him that this access would be risky to use?
Solitaire - Aug 29, 2009 2:52 pm (#139 of 178)
The Floo Network was being strictly monitored in OP, but I'm not sure how closely it was being watched during GoF. It must have been watched to some extent, I suppose, given that Arthur got permission to hook up the Dursleys to the Floo Network. **chuckling to self as I remember that fiasco!**
Honestly, I still believe that Voldemort was not yet ready to snatch Harry. To have done so before the tournament would have tipped people off about his return. Making it seem as though Harry had died in the maze would have been a good way to conceal his return until such time as he wished to publicize it.
I need to reread GoF, because I can't remember if a hint was given about Voldy's return and how he'd planned to do it. Movie contamination is affecting me, I think ...
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 29, 2009 3:57 pm (#140 of 178)
Arthur only needed to get permission for the Dursleys to get connected to The Floo Network because it was a Muggle house. Many, many wizard homes are connected. Sirius broke into a wizard house to visit Harry in the Gryffindor Common Room. It was not until she caught Sirius in OP that Umbridge/MoM began monitoring the fireplaces in Hogwarts.
Soli, it is possible that Vold wanted to make a grand entrance. My point is that there were ways to get Harry out if he wanted to. Crouch-Moody could have taken Harry from the DADA Office to a wizard home any evening after supper, and had Vold and all the DE's back in a few hours.
Solitaire - Aug 29, 2009 4:00 pm (#141 of 178)
The Triwizard finale seems to be the perfect entrance point, though, doesn't it? Think how many Wizards would have been there to see old Red Eyes in all his glory!
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 29, 2009 4:20 pm (#142 of 178)
Did he truly think a half dozen DE's could fight off an entire crowd of wizards?
Gerald Costales - Aug 29, 2009 8:53 pm (#143 of 178)
Moody/Crouch Jr. was the one who put Harry's name in the Goblet of Fire in the first place. Then Moody/Crouch Jr. was to ensure Harry won the Triwizard Championship. Voldemort wanted Harry's blood to be part of his rebirth. (Of course, this backfired since Wormtail owed his life to Harry and Harry's blood only strengthens Harry and Voldemort unique connection.)
What Voldemort planned after dueling and killing Harry is anybody's guess. But, Voldemort hadn't known about Harry and his wands being Brother Wands. And Harry escaped taking Cedric's body with him.
Mr. Ollivander was kidnapped in DH to solve the problem with the Brother Wands. But, borrowing Lucius? wand proved as disastrous as using his Yew Wand. Though it isn?t specifically mentioned in the Book, I believe it is shortly after the Seven Potters incident that Voldemort sought the Elder Wand. Voldemort just wanted a want that would guarantee the defeat of Harry.
I don?t believe Voldemort cared or knew of the Deathly Hallows. Voldemort?s Yew Wand was useless against Harry?s Holly Wand. And even borrowing another?s wand was useless. Remember, Harry?s Holly Wand sensed Voldemort and even acted on its own. The Holly Wand?s actions had even confused Harry.
PS Isn't Wandlore simply fun!!!
Solitaire - Aug 30, 2009 1:28 pm (#144 of 178)
Voldemort screamed when Harry Accio'd the cup, so he must have known it would return to Hogwarts. After rereading the Pensieve chapter, however, I have changed my mind about them wanting to return to Hogwarts. Harry tells DD of the dream he had in Divination class, in which Voldy says that Harry will be fed to the snake. This sounds like Voldy plans for Harry to "go missing" and not return to Hogwarts, even dead.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 30, 2009 2:52 pm (#145 of 178)
Soli, I do think that Vold wanted to kill Harry and return to Hogwarts, with his minions, using the Cup. I haven't read GoF in a while (I think I listened to it about 8 or 9 months ago...) -- and am not sure which Pensieve chapter you are referring to -- but I had never caught that Vold wanted Harry to be eaten.
Solitaire - Aug 30, 2009 4:32 pm (#146 of 178)
Shadow, The Pensieve is Chapter 30 in GoF. About 5-6 pages from the end of the chapter, Harry tells DD about his dream, which ends with Voldemort telling Wormtail he would feed Harry to the snake and then Crucio-ing Wormtail ... at which point Harry awoke.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 30, 2009 5:03 pm (#147 of 178)
Wow, I never retained that bit of information after all these years. I guess Vold was being "nice" to Severus by only having Nagini bite him... or maybe being eaten is less painful... yikes.
That's very interesting because if he did not AK Harry, but simply rendered him unable to fight off the snake's attack, it's possible he would have been successful in killing Harry right then and there. Would Lily's protection have prevented him from being eaten?
Solitaire - Aug 30, 2009 6:08 pm (#148 of 178)
Oh, I think he would have killed Harry himself. After all, didn't he kill Charity Burbage before feeding her to Nagini?
Gerald Costales - Aug 30, 2009 9:19 pm (#149 of 178)
Voldemort had to kill Harry. If anything, Voldemort needed to prove to his Death Eaters that the rebounding AK, that robbed Voldemort of his body, was an oversight. I wonder what the Death Eaters thought when yet another oversight occurred with the Brother Wands locking in the graveyard.
At the graveyard, I don?t see Voldemort not wanting to gloat about killing Harry. When Voldemort thought he had killed Harry in the forest at the end of DH, Voldemort ordered Hagrid to carry Harry to Hogwarts. At the graveyard, I think Voldemort would have acted in a similar manner and had kept Harry?s body to display his superiority. Tom Riddle/Voldemort is fond of trophies.
Would Voldemort have used the Triwizard Cup to return to Hogwarts with Harry?s body? I?m not convinced that was the plan. A group of people can use a portkey. The Weasleys, Diggorys, Hermione, and Harry did it to get to Quidditch World Cup. But, that portkey was on a timer. The Triwizard Cup was just a portkey or at least a portkey activated when touched. IMHO - All the Death Eaters and Voldemort would have had to touch the Triwizard Cup at the same time to be transported to Hogwarts.
PS Sorry, Nagini no Harry for din din tonight. But, wait a minute Harry at the graveyard lived to fight another day. Hurray!!!
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 30, 2009 9:52 pm (#150 of 178)
Soli, yes he'd most likely want the satisfaction of the AK at the graveyard. Yet another example of Vold's plans "backfiring" -- get it? AK? Backfiring?
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Julia H. - Aug 31, 2009 8:03 am (#151 of 178)
As for Voldemort being "kind" when he did not feed Snape to Nagini, I think he simply did not have the patience to wait for Nagini and he wanted to keep the snake with him, so he hurried off with it. *shudders*
All the Death Eaters and Voldemort would have had to touch the Triwizard Cup at the same time to be transported to Hogwarts. (Gerald)
But they would have had to face Dumbledore there ... the only one Voldemort feared. Would Vold be brave enough to do that? In OotP and in HBP (i.e. while Dumbledore is alive) he prefers sending his servants to battle; but in this case, his servants would be totally unprepared, too. Although if he had managed to kill Harry, he might have thought himself invincible.
mona amon - Aug 31, 2009 8:16 am (#152 of 178)
It could also be something to do with the Elder Wand. Voldemort was using the wand that he believed Severus to be the master of, so he probably decided not to take any chances, and used Nagini instead.
I really like this idea. It's not mine, I've read it on this forum, but I'm not sure who first suggested it.
me and my shadow 813 - Aug 31, 2009 8:18 am (#153 of 178)
Julia, that's how I feel as well about Vold popping in at the Winner's Circle. He and his small group would be finished off by Dumbledore, Flitwick and McGonagall in about 5 seconds. At least bound and gagged. But, as you and Soli have pointed out, this is Vold we're talking about and, although he fears Dumbledore, his ego might have overridden reason. It is ironic that, I think, he would have been successful in simply having Nagini bite Harry as he did to Severus. But no, he needed to get the satisfaction of AK-ing him. I think that is called Pride, one of the 7 Deadly Sins...
Steve Newton - Aug 31, 2009 8:23 am (#154 of 178)
Voldemort seems to believe that Harry is the only one who can defeat him. If Harry was dead he might be willing to face Dumbledore.
Julia H. - Aug 31, 2009 8:29 am (#155 of 178)
Yes, but he could still lose all of his followers in one battle. Being "invincible" does not mean that you necessarily defeat your enemy - it can be a tie! But then again, this is Voldemort...
Puck - Sep 1, 2009 6:06 pm (#156 of 178)
Well, was he even sure exactly how many former DE's would show up in the graveyard? He didn't know how much support he would have.
I think LV would overlook the obvious. The Floo would be too mundane. Plus, Harry might be suspicious of a teacher trying to take him away from Hogwarts.
kingdolohov - Sep 1, 2009 6:16 pm (#157 of 178)
I can't imagine Voldemort would have gone to Hogwarts. Didn't Lupin say in OotP that no one was supposed to find out about his return, and Harry ruined it for him? Hard to keep it a secret if you turn up at Hogwarts five minutes later and say hello to Dumbledore and Fudge.
me and my shadow 813 - Sep 1, 2009 9:06 pm (#158 of 178)
For your consideration, I think it will be okay to post a link to a page on the Lexicon. I'm sure you've all gotten your information and ideas from this essay already, but it is about the Portkey that might interest those of us who are masochistic enough to continue pondering these things:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Hieronymus Graubart - Sep 11, 2009 12:25 am (#159 of 178)
What sense would there be in having an anti-aparition charme to keep the baddies out of Hogwarts (and to prevent an easy escape for any evil-doers who slipped in) if you allow people to come and go by portkey or floo-network?
The anti-aparition charme was in place all the time. There is no reason to assume that portkeys would work at Hogwarts without the headmaster?s special permission or that the tranportation function of the floo network from and to Hogwarts (opposed to the communication function) was blocked only after GOF.
My problem with the assumption is precisely due to the Vanishing Cabinet remaining in Hogwarts without question for however long.(MAMS, Aug 27, 2009)
An ordinary Vanishing Cabinet is not a means of transportation, it is, as it says, a means of vanishing. Things put into a Vanishing Cabinet should go into nothingness, not to another Vanishing Cabinet.
This special Vanishing Cabinet nearly established a connection to Borgin and Burkes only because it had been damaged and did not work in the ordinary way. When Draco fixed this connection, he did not "repair" the Vanishing Cabinet, in a certain sense he damaged it even more (removing it further from its designated use). Nobody who had not listened to Montague could ever expect that this Vanishing Cabinet could be an entrance to Hogwarts.
I think Mrs. Brisbee got it and Soul Search summed it up perfectly (see posts previous to the link above): Superposing another destination on the only portkey which would work at Hogwarts was the only way to get Harry out.
Making the triwizard cup the goal of the last task and a portkey which carries the winner to the place of the award ceremony may be a standard procedure used on every triwizard tournament. In this case we don?t have to wonder how Harry?s parents could know and their "shadows" could tell him that the cup would take him back to Hogwarts.
This "on-touch" portkey was not designed to carry a group of persons like the "scheduled" portkeys used at the Quidditch Worlcup. It would be difficult for the death eaters to touch it all at the same time (and this is the reason why those other portkeys where "scheduled": to give people time enough to gather around the portkey and connect to it). So I don?t think that Voldemort had planned to use the cup to invade Hogwarts.
Gerald Costales - Sep 11, 2009 5:43 am (#160 of 178)
This "on-touch" portkey was not designed to carry a group of persons like the "scheduled" portkeys used at the Quidditch Worldcup. It would be difficult for the death eaters to touch it all at the same time (and this is the reason why those other portkeys where "scheduled": to give people time enough to gather around the portkey and connect to it). So I don?t think that Voldemort had planned to use the cup to invade Hogwarts. Hieronymus Graubart
Yup, I agree. I don't think the Triwizard Cup/portkey would have worked.
Mrs Brisbee - Sep 17, 2009 8:50 am (#161 of 178)
I too think Hieronymus Graubart makes a very good point about the Triwizard Cup Portkey to Hogwarts, and the difference between "on touch" and "scheduled" Portkeys. It just doesn't seem that useful for Death Eater purposes.
Soul Search - Sep 17, 2009 10:57 am (#162 of 178)
Good point, but Harry and Cedric did touch the portkey at the same time and were transported to the graveyard together. So, it must be possible. I don't think Voldemort, in his new body and all, could have resisted he and his Death Eaters jumping into "oh so well protected" Hogwarts and wreaking havoc. It had to have been part of his original plan.
I do note that Harry took Cedric's body back by grasping it. Something like "side-along" portkey. Maybe that would work with a group of Death Eaters too.
Steve Newton - Oct 30, 2009 7:45 am (#163 of 178)
I didn't know where to put this but...can the Knight Bus go to Hogwarts? The DEs didn't use it so probably not but I'm not sure.
Orion - Oct 30, 2009 7:59 am (#164 of 178)
It can go to the gate, but like every bus it has to stop there. It cannot enter the grounds, as they are protected, and who has ever heard of a bus entering private grounds? It is always described as stopping at the roadside.
Solitaire - Oct 30, 2009 5:41 pm (#165 of 178)
can the Knight Bus go to Hogwarts? Didn't the kids take it back to school once ... after Christmas during OotP, maybe?
Julia H. - Oct 30, 2009 11:39 pm (#166 of 178)
Yes, but the bus stopped outside the gates, I think.
It seems what the Knight Bus can do is a form of Apparition, and since it is probably operated with human magic, it probably can't cross the Apparition barrier. When it does not Apparate, I suppose it can be stopped by a gate or a wall just like any other vehicle.
Steve Newton - Oct 31, 2009 4:16 am (#167 of 178)
I had forgotten the trip back to school. We know that the bus didn't go inside Hogwarts. Probably means that it couldn't.
Chemyst - Nov 3, 2009 6:27 pm (#168 of 178)
Edited Nov 4, 2009 3:19 pm
Probably means that it couldn't.
Whoa! put the brakes on there, I think this is more a case of insufficient information.
The Ford Anglia had no trouble making it onto the grounds.
The Beauxbaton carriage landed close enough to the front door of Hogwarts that the first three rows of students who were welcoming the guests had to move back out of the way.
The Knight Bus is operated principally as public transportation, and as such, it would stay (more or less) on public roadways. If it were hired or leased as a private coach, it might well go on private grounds and drive right up to the front door.
The giant squid - Nov 8, 2009 8:16 am (#169 of 178)
I wouldn't say the Anglia had "no trouble" as the flight ability cut out as soon as they passed over the walls, causing them to crash. And the Beauxbaton thing, being part of the Tri-Wizard Tournament, could be explained as a temporary relaxing of the restrictions. Dumbledore can get away with things like that, you know.
Solitaire - Nov 8, 2009 10:16 am (#170 of 178)
Whoa! put the brakes on there
I recently heard Back up the broom! Thought it would be perfect for HP! LOL
About the Anglia ... I can't remember--and I don't have my books handy--but I thought the kids were already losing altitude as they flew over the lake. No? **Reminding myself never to let anyone touch my HP books but me**
Thom Matheson - Jun 9, 2010 10:20 pm (#171 of 178)
As I was reading Deathly Hallows for the umteenth time while recovering from the back thing, I ran across what I thought was odd. In the US book, the beginning of the chapter titled "Shell Cottage", the drawing by Gran Pare has a car in the drive way. I thought that odd that Bill and Fleur would have a car.
Soul Search - Jun 10, 2010 6:39 am (#172 of 178)
The illustration in my US Deathly Hallows (first edition. Actually, the first book out the bookstore door at midnight.) shows a hill with Harry sitting on rocks with his knees pulled to his chest. A small building is further up the hill. No car. Building does not appear to have any shells, either.
Odd indeed. There is no reference to a car at Shell Cottage.
Maybe we should try and compare all the illustrations.
Madam Pince - Jun 10, 2010 11:20 am (#173 of 178)
Mine has the same illustration that Steve's has. Is yours the "deluxe edition" by chance, Thom? (By the way, I just saw a copy of the "deluxe" edition on sale in either the Signals catalog or the What On Earth catalog. I think it was about $29...)
me and my shadow 813 - Jun 10, 2010 4:40 pm (#174 of 178)
Mine is the Canadian Raincoast edition, but now I'm curious and will look the next time I'm at Borders or B&N.
Congrats, Soul Search, on your "first at midnight" achievement!
Thom Matheson - Jun 10, 2010 9:53 pm (#175 of 178)
oops, my bad. It was the chapter before, "Wandmaker". Harry is over Dobby's grave and the cottage is in the background with the car.
Madam Pince - Jun 11, 2010 2:34 am (#176 of 178)
Ah, I see what you were talking about now, Thom. I took it that that was the front door and windows of the cottage, rather than a car. Like an arched doorway, maybe? Or just a curved place in the roofline so that maybe the upper two squares were lighted upstairs windows? But you're right, it does look like a car, too. I'm not sure...
It might be a different picture, though. I don't see Harry over the grave in mine -- it looks like a rock headstone, and there is a shovel beside the grave mound.
When I look closely again at the illustration for Ch. 25, "Shell Cottage", I can see the "arch" again -- on the side of the house.
(Edit: Just realized that in my earlier post, I called Soul Search "Steve" for some reason... Sorry! Apparently I saw just the S and then stopped reading... LOL!)
Soul Search - Jun 11, 2010 7:42 am (#177 of 178)
I see it now. I think it is the roofline of the cottage, but it does resemble a car. No Harry in my illustration either. Good eyes, Madam Pince: Looking closely, I, too, can see the arch on the side of the cottage in the "Shell Cottage" illustration. No car, but good pickup Thom. Most excitement I have had in a lot of Harry Potter days.
Thanks, me and my shadow 813, for recognition of my great Harry Potter achievement. I taped the receipt to the inside front cover so I can still prove it. I did feel rather good walking out, book in hand, past all the envious eyes still waiting in line and outside. It was all I could do keeping a "I got mine!" smirk off my face. Ten minutes later I was home and READING. It actually happened by accident. I wasn't first in line, or anything. I was waiting in line and just at midnight a clerk came up and opened a previously unattended cash register, just where I was standing. I handed him exact change, he handed me a book and receipt, and I was heading for the door.
And, by the way Madam Pince, it is John, not Steve. "Soul Search" is so long time ago, but I can't change it.
John Bumbledore - Jun 11, 2010 11:56 am (#178 of 178)
As I remember it you actually can change your member name here on World Crossing. It is advised that you send an email to kip so he or another mod doesn't restrict the "new" member names back to read only access as an Unknown.
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