Cho Chang

Elanor Mon May 02, 2011 12:19 pm

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing which ceased operation on April 15, 2011.- Elanor

Edit: A 2nd Cho Chang thread, from July 29, 2004 to Oct 26, 2007 also existed on World Crossing. This topic also serves as an archive of this 2nd thread, which was copied/saved by Julia H. and reformatted/reposted by Potteraholic. ~Potteraholic

Cho Chang (posts from Nov 12, 2003 to Mar 24, 2004)

Lenka - Nov 12, 2003 4:39 am
Edited by Kip Carter May 2, 2006 8:00 am
It surprises me there isn't a thread for Cho, because she certainly had a greater role in OoP than any of the other books. So, what do you all think? Will her relationship with Harry continue? Did JKR include her just to show Harry was growing up? Will she come up later in the series, or is her role over? Discuss.

Index Cho Chang (November 2003 - March 2004)

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Cho Chang (posts from July 29, 2004 to Oct 26, 2007)

Sir Tornado - Jul 29, 2004 12:21 am
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 17, 2005 2:23 am

It surprises me there isn't a thread for Cho, because she certainly had a greater role in OoP than any of the other books. So, what do you all think? Will her relationship with Harry continue? Did JKR include her just to show Harry was growing up? Will she come up later in the series, or is her role over? Also, what do you think of her as a person? Caring? Selfish? Do you hate her or like her? This is the place to discuss everything related to Cho Chang.

Index Cho Chang (July 2004 - October 2007)

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Elanor Mon May 02, 2011 12:25 pm

virgoddess1313 - Nov 12, 2003 9:20 am (#1 of 155)
I think her role is pretty much over (thank goodness). I think that if a romantic relationship will develop between Harry and anyone, it will not be her. She's not worth anymore of Harry's time... or ours for that matter.

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Liz Mann - Nov 12, 2003 10:09 am (#2 of 155)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
People seem very determined to disline Cho. Long before she started crying and everything or before we even knew anything about her for that matter. I personally don't mind her.

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zelmia - Nov 12, 2003 10:29 am (#3 of 155)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Well, I got to the point where I started to feel like she was just using Harry as an outlet for her grief. Understandable, to be sure. Nevertheless, I would have said something to her about it, had I been in Harry's place: "You can talk to me about other things, you know."

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Fawkes Forever - Nov 12, 2003 10:55 am (#4 of 155)
Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
I think Cho has had a bit of bad press with OotP. Some of it deserved, [tantrums & what have you], but some of it not! At the end of the day, she is a teenage girl whose boyfriend was murdered by one of the evilest wizards their world has seen!

She's struggling to come to terms with this... & also with the fact that she's attracted to Harry. Therefore she feels both grief, guilt, & a whole bundle of other emotions, but can't quite get a handle on it. Sometimes she can't express herself, & just ends up crying... much to everyone elses [and my] annoyance! Hermione actually sums up Cho's behaviour at one point for Harry, & I'm inclined to agree with her synopsis! Harry himself is 'all over the place' emotionally as well, so the pairing was doomed from the start! I never really expected the two to end up together anyways.

In saying that, her tantrums quite bugged me. Perhaps having a pretty face, she was used to getting her way with the male species, & couldn't comprehend why this wasn't working on Harry!

Her part (in my opinion) was just to illustrate 'What you see is not always what you get'! Harry was 'cracked' on her.... but lets be honest, apart from the fact she's not a bad seeker, & has a passion for Quidditch, what did Harry really know about her.... Errr very little actually! Once he got to know her, I don't think he was really all that keen on her! Be careful what you wish for Harry.... things are not always what they seem!

Oh, just one more thing..... is anyone else confused by Chos' age? According to PoA, shes a year older than Harry, but in OotP, she mentions something about.. 'Do you remember in third year' (sorry no books here at work so I'm just paraphrasing for now )
Surely she hasn't shrunk in age?

Anyways, I don't think Cho will play a vital role in the remaining books.... so we won't have to put up with her 'odd' behaviour... but, go easy on the 'Human Hosepipe', she's had a tough enough year

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Sly Girl - Nov 12, 2003 11:36 am (#5 of 155)
I don't think Cho will have a future role either- I think we were made to dislike her for a reason. Namely so that we would forget about her. If JKR did bring her back it would have to be after Cho had a personality replacement. ^-^

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Denise P. - Nov 12, 2003 11:43 am (#6 of 155)
Ravenclaw Pony
You can't replace something that was not there to begin with heh heh heh

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Liz Mann - Nov 12, 2003 1:14 pm (#7 of 155)
Join us for the Philosopher's Stone Watch-A-Long
That's a bit hasrh isn't it NoVeil4Me?

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S.E. Jones - Nov 12, 2003 2:10 pm (#8 of 155)
Let it snow!
Fawkes Forever, I quite agree with that little summary of yours. She is a young girl whose had to go through a lot, losing a loved one is hard on anyone, and has had to deal with the guilt of liking someone who had been her late boyfriends competitor and was present at his death. Everyone makes a big deal over the fact that she asked if Cedric had had time to mention her before he died. Well, if a woman got a call that her husband had been killed in an accident, she would probably wonder the same thing, at least at some point, and no one would blame her. Was it true love between Cho and Cedric? Probably not, but at sixteen, isn't everyone convinced it is real and that it will last forever?

Oh, just one more thing..... is anyone else confused by Chos' age? According to PoA, shes a year older than Harry, but in OotP, she mentions something about.. 'Do you remember in third year' (sorry no books here at work so I'm just paraphrasing for now )

I think she said "third year" because it would've been his third year and she's trying to bring back a specific memory to him. If she'd said "fourth year", he may have thought, "but during my fourth year there was no Quidditch..."...

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SJ Rand - Nov 12, 2003 6:54 pm (#9 of 155)
.
S.E. Jones:

>losing a loved one is hard on anyone, and has had to deal with the guilt of liking someone who had been her late boyfriends competitor and was present at his death.

That's quite true, but usually the person feeling that understandable guilt will wait until they're alone, or at least out of the presence of the current flame, to start crying.

>Everyone makes a big deal over the fact that she asked if Cedric had time to mention her before he died. Well, if a woman got a call that her husband had been killed in an accident, she would probably wonder the same thing...

Again you're right, but again it's not the action but the timing: their first real date. Asking before they began to date, or asking once they've gotten very close to, and comfortable with, each other would also be fine. Asking during the first date? I don't think so.

However, she brought Cedric up after Harry mentioned going to meet Hermione. Was the question asked for the sake of knowing the answer, or to remind Harry that there was another flame before him, one who, being just a memory, he can never hope to compete with?

This was also after she mentioned another boy had asked her out.

So the conversation went like this:

Harry brings up Hermione. Cho gets mad. Pause. Cho mentions Davies (the boy in the tea shop) having asked her out. Pause. Cho mentions that Cedric had brought her to the tea shop. Pause. Cho asks about Cedric saying anything about her before he died.

That had to be aimed at making Harry more jealous than he'd made Cho, reminding him that he's not the only boy who wants her, and getting a little payback for insulting her.

I hope we do see her again. Unless I just attributed far more cunning to her than she deserves, and I don't think I did, she'd be a crafty ally.

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::StinkerBell:: - Nov 12, 2003 8:40 pm (#10 of 155)
Use to be LongLiveSnuffles.....
I only wanted Harry and Cho together for Harry's happiness.... I think that Cho needed to get a grip on herself. She seemed to cry when we least expected it, and we all rather annoyed at it, instead of sympathetic. I hate to say this, but I think she was looking for a bit more attention. It seems harsh, since she did lose her boyfriend...But it seemed all together weird to have her really upset at Harry for bringing up Hermione, when she always mentions Cedric.....

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S.E. Jones - Nov 13, 2003 12:03 am (#11 of 155)
Let it snow!
That's quite true, but usually the person feeling that understandable guilt will wait until they're alone, or at least out of the presence of the current flame, to start crying.

Um, I don't know if you've ever had a loved one die, but it grief doesn't always work that way. It doesn't always wait till you're alone to strike, sometimes it does it all of a sudden and you just break down. Also, the grieving process is a very stressful time and a very lonely one. Add that to the age, sixteen, when you think you and everyone around you is invulnerable and when emotions are running high anyway (I mean, look at Harry in this book, he was an emotional rollercoaster), and it can get pretty dodgy. I think Cho felt she needed to reach out to someone so she chose Harry, whom she probably felt she had some connection with, added to their connection over Cedric (she seemed to think he needed to reach out to someone too).

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Sly Girl - Nov 13, 2003 3:24 am (#12 of 155)
The 'grieving' thing aside (was she or wasn't she?)- Harry and Cho didn't strike me as being all that compatible regardless of her 'emotional' actions. The only time I recall that they ever 'connected' was when they talked about Quidditch. Any other time they'd start to have something to talk about, one of them (*cough*..Cho) would bring up Cedric.

I just don't think JKR wrote her the way she did to give us all insight into the way 16 year olds handle the death of their boyfriend, I'm sorry. I think she wrote her a certain way to make us dislike her- or at the very least, make us (and Harry) see that she was not the right type of girl for him.

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shepherdess - Nov 13, 2003 4:18 am (#13 of 155)
55 year old mother of 3, step-mother of 2, grandmom to 3, living in Oklahoma
"I think she wrote her a certain way to make us dislike her"

Hmmm...Didn't she do the same thing with Snape? I wonder why she was successful in Cho's case, but not in Snape's case? (I don't mean to turn this into yet another discussion on Snape.) She made us dislike Snape, then he turned out to be a "good guy" (?). Could she do the same thing with Cho? Maybe put an end to the romance, but have her turn out to be a useful friend and ally?

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popkin - Nov 13, 2003 8:04 am (#14 of 155)
mother
SJ Rand - Nov 12, 2003 5:54 pm (#9 of 13) So the conversation went like this:

Harry brings up Hermione. Cho gets mad. Pause. Cho mentions Davies (the boy in the tea shop) having asked her out. Pause. Cho mentions that Cedric had brought her to the tea shop. Pause. Cho asks about Cedric saying anything about her before he died.

That had to be aimed at making Harry more jealous than he'd made Cho, reminding him that he's not the only boy who wants her, and getting a little payback for insulting her.

I saw it a little differently: Harry brings up Hermione. Cho gets mad. Pause. Cho mentions Davies having asked her out. Pause. Thinking about Davies asking her out reminds Cho of Cedric. Cho mentions that Cedric brought her to this very same tea shop that she and Harry are now sitting in. Pause. Cho decides to ask about something that's been bothering her since her boyfriend was killed. Cho asks about Cedric saying anything about her before she died.

"I think she wrote her a certain way to make us dislike her"

I don't think this is true for one reason. I didn't dislike Cho at all. She was just a girl going through a very hard time. In our society, she might very well have received therapy and could have vented a lot of her emotions on a counselor. I don't think she had any professional help, and her emotions ended up spilling out when, perhaps, she would have least wanted them to. Maybe next year, when a lot more time has passed, we will see a very different person in Cho - one less dependent on ditsy, disloyal friends and a constant string of boyfriends, and more confident in herself.

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Essidji - Nov 13, 2003 8:30 am (#15 of 155)
You are right, Popkin, I agree with you saying that Cho is "not so bad in the end", and for my part, I disliked her reminding Cedrid to Harry as much as the way Harry refuses to try and understand her. I was disappointed when I discovered that their srory would finally be a fiasco. Certainly, they were just too different to get on well together. And maybe JKR wrote this on purpose to make Harry free in his mind, so that he could meet someone else or open his eyes upon Ginny...

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Third guy from the left - Nov 13, 2003 8:49 am (#16 of 155)
To be perfectly honest, I kind of lost interest in Cho once I figured out that their relationship wasn't going to work. I don't think I ever disliked her. It just became evident to me that we were never going to see her side of the story because Harry wasn't going to look for it. So Cho became the same thing to me that she seemed to be to Harry, a confusing individual who surfaced every so often to demand attention.

I actually think their relationship might have worked under different circumstances, but it would have taken effort to build up, and neither of them were in a position, emotionally, to put up that kind of effort. Basically, I think they were victims of bad timing.

As I reread OotP, I became far more interested in Cho's support mechanisms, or sometimes lack there of. What do you think Cho told her parents about what happened during GoF? I seem to recall her saying that her parents wanted her to not get on Umbridge's bad side (although I may be confusing her with someone else at this point). Do you think this is because her parents believed Fudge over DD, or because her parents didn't want their emotionally distraught daughter getting in serious trouble? What happened to reduce the crowd of girls that Cho used to hang around with in GoF to the one girl she hangs around with in OotF?

3rd Guy

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popkin - Nov 13, 2003 9:25 am (#17 of 155)
mother
3rd Guy: What happened to reduce the crowd of girls that Cho used to hang around with in GoF to the one girl she hangs around with in OotF?

Poor Cho. They probably got tired of being around an emotional mess. I guess they weren't real friends. I'm afraid most of the Ravenclaw bunch is like that.

Maybe Cho will get tired of them as well, and maybe she'll be the one to switch houses.

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Third guy from the left - Nov 13, 2003 9:37 am (#18 of 155)
Ouch.

That's a scathing assessment of an entire house based on the possible actions of a few people. Of course I can see where the assessment comes from. Still Luna shows a fair amount of loyalty to the HRH gang during OotP. Cho herself also shows a large degree of loyalty by appearantly forgiving Marietta for her betrayal (one which I still believe was made under considerable duress, but that's probably a discussion for a different thread). But those actions could well be exceptions rather than the norm.

So if Cho were to switch houses, where do you think she'd go? I doubt she'd be welcome in Gryffindor (even if she had any desire to go there after her fiasco dating Harry)

3rd Guy

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popkin - Nov 13, 2003 10:01 am (#19 of 155)
mother
I don't know. It was pretty idle speculation. But the thought that the kids (girls?) from Ravenclaw make poor friends is not a baseless one. Look at Luna. She might be odd, but she's got plenty of good qualities, and she's certainly ill treated by the Ravenclaw bunch.

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zelmia - Nov 13, 2003 10:14 am (#20 of 155)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
Cho's friends seemed absent here, I thought, because she was always hanging around to try to talk to Harry. Marietta Edgecomb was only with her during the DA functions and as a sort of back-up (a common female tactic, I must admit). But the rest of the time wasn't Cho with her usual group of giggling girls?

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Third guy from the left - Nov 13, 2003 10:39 am (#21 of 155)
That is an interesting insight, Zelmia. I was not aware of that tactic. (Stores information for later observation / use)

I don't recall many references to merely seeing Cho casually in the corridors in OotF, only when she was meeting up with Harry. You may well be right.

3rd Guy

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SJ Rand - Nov 13, 2003 11:15 am (#22 of 155)
S.E. Jones:

You're right that people don't chose when they feel grief, but they do have the ability to excuse themselves and head to the bathroom, or to avoid bringing up painful subjects. Even a teenager.

Now I'm not painting Cho as "bad" or "shallow", and I'm very aware that Harry messed up too. In fact, he messed up first.

popkin:

I can see your take on it, but I still think Cho's choice of conversation was deliberate. The timing is too good for it to be anything else. She'd just been stung, and she decided to sting back. Harry isn't her first boyfriend, and if she's smart enough to ask him out without being the one to ask, she'd understand something about the male ego, so knowing the impact that bringing up rivals would have on it isn't a far reach.

The first one, Davies, was present and "slurping" at his date before Harry mentioned meeting Hermione. Cho didn't mention Davies having asked her out until after Hermione was mentioned. The Ravenclaws are chosen for their intellect. It's hard to see that choosing Davies as the very next thing that the very intelligent Cho wants to talk about after Harry talks about meeting Hermione as an accident.

Asking if Cedric had said anything about her before he died, might not have been calculated, but bringing up Davies and then mentioning that Cedric had brought her to the same shop had to be.

Then there was the last bit of conversation before Cho stormed out.

"Well, --- I have talked about it," (Cedric's death) Harry said in a whisper. "to Ron and Hermione, but ---".

"Oh, you'll talk about it to Hermione Granger!" she said shrilly, her face shining with new tears, and several more kissing couples broke apart to stare. "But you won't talk to me!"

She was still mad at him for saying he had to meet Hermione. Even with her horrid grief over losing Cedric, she remembered to yell at Harry for his relationship with Hermione, since he obviously didn't get the point the first time.

Not Ron, you'll notice, even though Harry mentions Ron before Hermione. Not "Oh, you'll talk about it to Ron and Hermione, but you won't talk to me!", but "Oh, you'll talk about it to Hermione Granger!". Just Hermione.

I didn't come away from that book disliking Cho either, despite my contentions about her shrewdness.

Sly Girl:

I agree with you about her friends, but I don't see anything unusual in their problems finding things to talk about on a first date. Less than half of a first date, really.

By the way: How many times did she mention Cedric? I only remember two off hand, but I've only read the book once.

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::StinkerBell:: - Nov 13, 2003 4:01 pm (#23 of 155)
Use to be LongLiveSnuffles.....
I read your post,SJ Randy, I you have changed my mind about Cho. I think the last stuff she said in the coffee shop did seem to be more about her jelousy over Hermione than her grief on Cedric...

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zelmia - Nov 13, 2003 4:21 pm (#24 of 155)
Oh! And that's a bad miss!
That article in Witch Weekly that came out about Harry and Hermione (GF) must have planted a seed of some sort in Cho's mind. My question is what does she really see in Harry? Other than the fact that she knows Harry has liked her for some time. She doesn't really seem to see anything.

I mean, she never really asks him about himself. Even mundane things like about his course schedule or which teachers he prefers or dislikes. After all, they don't have any classes together. They aren't even in the same year so they wouldn't anyway. She only wants to talk about Cedric and how much other people like her. Granted, they only have a few brief "scenes" alone together, but she seems to use the time only to use Harry to satisfy her own emotional needs.

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SJ Rand - Nov 13, 2003 4:53 pm (#25 of 155)
Zelmia: >>Granted, they only have a few brief "scenes" alone together, but she seems to use the time only to use Harry to satisfy her own emotional needs.

That's sort of the definition of a relationship. With luck, the person you get involved with feels that making you happy is part of how they satisfy their own emotional needs as well.

As you also said, the two really haven't had enough time alone together yet to look for more common ground. She does like him though. He couldn't manage to get her that mad if she didn't. Wink

What attracted her to him? Isn't he supposed to be handsome? Unfortunately I saw the movie PS/SS before I read the series, so that geeky kid who played him is stuck in my head. Isn't James described as being rakishly handsome, and Harry looks like James?

Then there's the fame. Not just the "he survived Voldemort" fame, but also the "youngest Quidditch player in a century" fame as well. And he's the best seeker at the school.

Handsome, famous, and athletic. The only thing missing to make him a god is obvious wealth... then again, he is the only one to have a very expensive Firebolt broom, isn't he? Smile

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Elanor Mon May 02, 2011 12:27 pm

Hem Hem - Nov 13, 2003 6:09 pm (#26 of 155)
JKR needed Harry to go through a crush/girlfriend in order for him to fulfill her vision of a teenager. She needed him to break up in order to make this "teenage romance" realistic. And Cho needed to not be right for Harry. I don't think her annoyingness is any flaw in her own character, rather, it was the way JKR needed to portray her.

And I must admit, Cho wasn't so bad. She did make Harry happy for a decent section of the book, and that had a very positive impact on my perception of her and OotP as a whole.

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S.E. Jones - Nov 13, 2003 10:12 pm (#27 of 155)
Let it snow!
Isn't he supposed to be handsome? Unfortunately I saw the movie PS/SS before I read the series, so that geeky kid who played him is stuck in my head. Isn't James described as being rakishly handsome, and Harry looks like James?

I thought Sirius was the "rakishly handsome" one....

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Mrs. Black - Nov 13, 2003 10:38 pm (#28 of 155)
In PS/SS Harry is a pretty scrawny kid and I've just kept that image of him all the way through. I don't think Harry is particularly geeky looking, but at the same time I don't think he's the class heartthrob either. As for Cho, I couldn't help feeling sorry for her. She was a bit annoying, but she was also very 16 to me. I love the way JK Rowling writes teenagers. I can completely se myself and my friends at that age in her characters. I think Cho will stick around, not as a love interest, but as a friend as Harry's social world expands beyond the walls of the Gryffindor common room.

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SJ Rand - Nov 14, 2003 9:14 am (#29 of 155)
>I thought Sirius was the "rakishly handsome" one....

That sounds right too. I wonder what the odds are of finding a one or two line description by just skimming through 2,500 pages of text.

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Peregrine - Nov 14, 2003 9:34 am (#30 of 155)
Oh, Sirius is described as handsome in the wedding picture, the Pensieve memory, and as he’s falling through the veil (probably other times too). But I can’t recall James ever being called good looking (or bad looking). Just cool, talented and a good flyer. And I doubt we’ll ever know if Harry is supposed to be good looking unless he sees himself as good looking or until someone tells him he is because we see it through his eyes.

Maybe Cho’s one of those girls who likes the dark-haired, skinny, glasses wearing type (and I can’t say I’d blame her). Although, she did go out with classically good-looking Cedric, so maybe it is more of Harry’s fame she’s interested it. I don’t know. All I do know is I really started to dislike her after she freaked out in Hogsmeade. She just reminded me a little too much of a girl I knew in high school who would flip every time her boyfriend would talk to one of his oldest friend-girls (me)—so I’m kinda biased.

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virgoddess1313 - Nov 14, 2003 11:01 am (#31 of 155)
I think the whole situation with Cho helped to show that romantic entanglements aren't really important to Harry at this point in his life. Afterall, didn't he feel indifferent to the fact that she had a new man? By dismissing his crush on her (that phrasing is a little rough, but I can't think of a better way to say it right now) Harry seems to me to be saying "Hey, I've got bigger thing to be worrying about than women." Maybe Cho was JKR's way of telling us to chill out about Harry finding love, at least for awhile.

(This idea might not belong here, now that I look at it. If it needs to be moved, please go for it.)

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SarcasticGinny - Nov 14, 2003 2:05 pm (#32 of 155)
I feel bad for Cho. From my own viewpoint, far different from hers at sixteen, I'd say spend some time alone after losing a significant other before moving on or you're re-bounding. Her situation with Cedric having been murdered is pretty different from the breakup situation this rule usually applies to, but I think its better to be okay with yourself and what's happened to you before starting new relationships, or you risk dumping your problems on someone else. That's what Cho did to Harry, but she's young and inexperienced like he is, and probably didn't know better. Who's to say she's ever lost anyone in her life before losing Cedric?

The part where I think she's out of line has nothing to do with Cedric, rather, with her defense of Marietta, who despite the circumstances, shouldn't have tattled. It's one thing to quit the D.A. because you feel bad, yet its another to turn everyone in to Umbridge..yes, Harry was right, she even sold out Cho. What also really irks me is Cho's ridiculous jealousy of Hermione. She's always harping on how Harry must like Hermione to go see her during Hogsmeade, defend her "SNEAK" jinx, etc. I wanted to shake Miss Chang about the shoulders and yell "Sheesh, they're friends, figure it out!"

I feel bad for her missing Cedric and all, but the other factors make me think that even if Ced and Cho had never dated at all, she and Harry still would have made each other nuts.

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Third guy from the left - Nov 14, 2003 2:23 pm (#33 of 155)
I agree that Cho and Harry would probably have never worked, but I do feel it necessary to deepen the discussion on the other points you raised.

On the issue of Marietta, I believe the idea that Marietta ratted out the DA because she felt bad about it is a vast oversimplification of the pressures she was likely under. However, further discussions of that nature should probably take place elsewhere. This is a Cho thread. But to put it simply, I actually felt more sorry for Marietta than I did for Cho, not because of the "SNEAK" jinx, but because of the unseen events that I feel likely let up to her suffering from the "SNEAK" jinx.

On the issue of her jealousy over Hermione, yes, Cho should have known better than to think Hermione was competition. But then again, Mrs Weasley should have known better than to think Hermione would do to Harry what the Daily Prophet said she did. But Molly still believed the Prophet and quite likely so did Cho.

However, I do whole heartedly agree that Cho was not really ready to date again, especially not Harry.

3rd Guy

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Sinister Kittens - Nov 15, 2003 3:28 am (#34 of 155)
I've put myself on Lurk only status, sorry I haven't been chatting but I have been reading about you all ;-).
Ah, Cho Chang... I haven't been able to read the Lexicon for a few days (work getting in the way again!) and look what happens, 33 posts on a brand new subject! Anyway, many people have already raised the issue of Cho's age and the grieving process that she was going through so I won't re-hash that here.

But, I do think that part of her major role was already raised in GoF - she was an object of desire for Harry, new and complex emotions caused by an unexpected source threw the young man off kilter. Now he actually gets to spend time with her and he seems confused by how different she is to her contemporaries (the only two girls he has really ever spent time with prior to the DA are Ginny and Hermione - both friends not girl-friends). IMO Cho has served her purpose, Harry spent time with her, got over his infatuation and can now focus more clearly on the task ahead of him.

Just my two knuts on the subject, ;-)

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SJ Rand - Nov 15, 2003 11:51 am (#35 of 155)
Peregrine: >>All I do know is I really started to dislike her after she freaked out in Hogsmeade.

I think she was overly dramatic, but I understand her reaction and remember that teenage emotions burn at least twice as hot as an adult's would. Harry spends a lot of time with Hermione, always sits with her at meals and such. Cho would have to see her as at least a potential rival.

The problem was his needing to meet Hermione while he and Cho were on their first date. On a top one hundred list of things not to do on a first date, the first ninety five would be "Do not suggest visiting a female friend". The other five would all be "Do not even mention another women unless it's your mother or sister".

The biggest problem with Cho was Hermione scheduling the interview for the same day as that date. Important as the interview was, the problems Harry had with Cho were caused by Hermione.

Despite what Hermione said later, there is no diplomatic way for a man to suggest meeting a female friend on a first date. Or fifth. If she'd told him why she needed to meet, he might have been able to explain it in a way that wouldn't have gotten him into trouble. Maybe.

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Peregrine - Nov 17, 2003 10:06 am (#36 of 155)
I just didn’t like her because she reminded me of girls I knew in high school who always drove me crazy. Props to JKR for making Cho a little too realistic for me.

Did Hermione even know about Harry’s date when she set up the meeting with Rita Skeeter? I think by the time she found out, it was too late to change her plans, otherwise she would have.

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::StinkerBell:: - Nov 17, 2003 3:40 pm (#37 of 155)
Use to be LongLiveSnuffles.....
Hermione did know, she told Harry to meet her, and Harry said something like" but I don't know if Cho want to spend the whole day together...." and she replied " so bring her along...."

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siobhan - Nov 18, 2003 12:44 pm (#38 of 155)
Cho reminded me a little of how a lot of girls act at our age. We are constantly aware of boys and what they're thinking and we do a fair bit of crying too. Cho was obviously very confused and i think hermiones assessment of her is perfect. One thing I didn't like was that I felt she only ever liked Harry for his fame and talent on the Quidditch pitch as she never really talked to him. But to be fair Harry only liked her for her looks so they are both screwed up. So its not fair to blame Cho for everything i suppose

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Lenka - Nov 19, 2003 5:38 am (#39 of 155)
ahhhh essays
I agree, Siobhan. Since the relationship wasn't based on true love or even friendship, but only good looks and popularity, it's bound not to last.

Smile

Lenka

PS: Take a look at your i's before you get kippendoed. Wink

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S.E. Jones - Nov 19, 2003 9:24 pm (#40 of 155)
Let it snow!
Hm, a teenage relationship based on good looks and popularity. Really? (insert sarcasm here...) But really, I think they were just acting like typical teenagers. Admittedly, a few people meet the love of their life in high school, my parents did, but not everyone does, so the likelihood that all three of the Trio will is pretty slim. Now one (or two, ) of them... Now there's a possibility....

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Sly Girl - Nov 19, 2003 10:03 pm (#41 of 155)
heh why whomever do you mean, Sarah?

I have to agree, my assement of Cho is just based on the fact that I really didn't like her for Harry. I'm sure were she interested in...say, Draco... I wouldn't have a problem with her antics (cheeky grin). But you're probably right, Cho is young, was upset about Cedric etc etc.

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SJ Rand - Nov 20, 2003 11:01 am (#42 of 155)
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 20, 2003 11:21 am
I have edited this post. I felt that I did not want someone ask their mother what a particular sentence meant; therefore I chose to delete the possible problem. - Kip

S.E. Jones: >>Hm, a teenage relationship based on good looks and popularity. Really? (insert sarcasm here...)

Very true.

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Caitlin McCoy - Nov 20, 2003 5:26 pm (#43 of 155)
Fierce are the winds that I blow before me
Now, don't get me wrong, I am not much of a Cho Chang fan to begin with...

However, I don't think that she was ready to take on any kind of relationship so soon after Cedric's death. Even if they were just "goofing around" - kissing and the like - for someone you're that involved with to die had to have been devastating on a few levels. So when she decided to take on dating Harry, maybe she thought it would be easier for her somehow...and then she found out it wasn't. She should have talked to Harry first, became his friend and let it grow from there. How much would you like to bet that she doesn't even know what his favorite Bertie Bott's flavor is?

~Caitlin

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Maollelujah - Nov 20, 2003 6:21 pm (#44 of 155)
How much would you like to bet that she doesn't even know what his favorite Bertie Bott's flavor is?

What is it? I don't remember him ever saying.

Now about Cho: I still don't understand why people don't like Cho. She's pretty, she's athletic, she's smart and apparently popular, so why wouldn't Harry like her.

She was one of the few people that wished Harry good luck before the First Task in GoF. She stuck up for him without hestitation in the Owlery. She never doubted his story in OotP. She has give 'our little Harry' nothing but support.

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Caitlin McCoy - Nov 20, 2003 6:29 pm (#45 of 155)
Fierce are the winds that I blow before me
What I meant by the Bertie Bott's flavor comment is that she doesn't seem to know too much about Harry as a person. I don't think that's a good idea when delving into a relationship, that's all.

And one of the main reasons I'm not a Cho fan is she expected Harry to know things about relationships that most guys his age just don't. And I didn't think it was very fair of her.

~Caitlin

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S.E. Jones - Nov 20, 2003 6:59 pm (#46 of 155)
Let it snow!
So when she decided to take on dating Harry, maybe she thought it would be easier for her somehow...

I think that was it exactly. I think she was subconsciously looking for a crutch, someone to make the pain go away, to make her heart stop breaking. I don't think she realized that this would mean she would mean she would be using him just because I don't think it was intentional. Poor thing. I wonder if there are counselors in the wizarding world?

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Caitlin McCoy - Nov 20, 2003 7:21 pm (#47 of 155)
Fierce are the winds that I blow before me
If there are, she definately needs one. And I don't mean that in a negative way. She had a death to deal with, and I don't think that any adult has really been there for her through that. I doubt that even if there are couselors for that kind of thing in the wizarding world, that the Ministry would've provided them for the Hogwarts students. They were too busy trying to convince everyone Cedric died from some kind of accident, or like hogwash.

~Caitlin

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Maollelujah - Nov 20, 2003 7:50 pm (#48 of 155)
What I meant by the Bertie Bott's flavor comment is that she doesn't seem to know too much about Harry as a person. I don't think that's a good idea when delving into a relationship, that's all.

But I thought that was the entire idea of going on a date, to find out more about Cho (or Harry). I mean they don't have any classes together, they can't talk on the fellytone all night long... etc....

I never thought that Cho was using Harry as a crutch, rather that she had liked Harry even before Cedric showed up. Of course she did have a few issues that needed to be worked out, but it was unfortunate that she thought that Harry could help her.

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S.E. Jones - Nov 20, 2003 8:54 pm (#49 of 155)
Let it snow!
I think she kind of liked him to, that's why she subconsciously turned to him. I don't think she went looking for someone to use as a crutch or anything like that. I don't think it was intentional at all. I think it just turned out that way because she was still grieving.

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SarcasticGinny - Nov 21, 2003 12:18 pm (#50 of 155)
Wow Caitlin has just reminded me of another very obvious reason why Cho was such a kook. Anyone who's ever dated someone older than them, then tried to date someone younger than them should know that the maturity levels vary greatly. I highly doubt that Harry's emotional maturity at fifteen was anywhere near Cedric's at seventeen, but that's probably what Cho expected. Maybe she thought Harry having witnessed Cedric dying would make him as mature. Who knows, but it's a pretty bold assumption.

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Elanor Mon May 02, 2011 12:28 pm

virgoddess1313 - Nov 22, 2003 9:59 am (#51 of 155)
I don't agree about the maturity levels... it isn't always so. My last boyfriend my age was like a small child... it wasn't dating, it was babysitting. My boyfriend now is 2 years younger than I am and just as mature (if not more so) than me. Harry strikes me as the type of guy who would possess more than average levels of maturity, so I don't think that Cho would have been thrown by that.

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SarcasticGinny - Nov 22, 2003 1:51 pm (#52 of 155)
No offense meant. There's exceptions to every rule, vigroddess. I probably should have used more terms like "generally" or "usually" as I really didn't mean that everhy single younger guy isn't as mature. Still, the odds generally are that a fifteen year old won't have the dating saavy of a seventeen or eighteen year old. Harry's maturity seems to exist when courage or coping skills are needed, but remember, he couldn't even take Cho by the hand; his maturity in the boy-girl connection sense necessary for dating is lacking, whic is okay since fifteen is still really young, but who says Cho remembered that?

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Emily - Nov 22, 2003 5:09 pm (#53 of 155)
I probably can't add much to the discussion about dating and all that, not having been there, but I do have one comment. It seems unlikely that Cho would go out with Harry because of his fame, because his fame was pretty negative. The Daily Prophet had been calling him crazy since before the Third Task the previous year, and over the summer had started slipping in things to make him sound even worse to people on a weekly basis. His good looks(if he has them), Firebolt, fame for being the youngest Quidditch player in a year, for defeating Voldemort, and his superb athletic ability might have made up for it to Cho; but who knows, she might have thought she really did like him for who he was. Maybe she did, and just got overcome be jealousy at that particular moment. I mean, look at all the good points other people have pointed out. (Like wishing him luck, sticking up for him, etc.)

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siobhan - Nov 23, 2003 12:46 pm (#54 of 155)
You make some good points Marauder5.But I think Cho also thought it was brave of him(Heroic actually) to stand up to that slander and was attracted to the drama of his life. Harry I think even when the Prophet was slandering him has quite an appealing fame and drama about his life. I mean look at Parvati Patil. She obviously only liked Harry for his fame and his title as Hogwarts Champion(the yule ball). I think JKR is setting Harry up with these fame hungry girls so that when he finally comes to the realisation that he needs a girl who doesn't care if he is famous or not(cough*Ginny*) we'll all be happy with his how much he has grown and be able to look back on his mistakes that he made with Cho and Parvati and see all the realistic character development of a teenager.

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zeeniie beeniie - Nov 23, 2003 1:45 pm (#55 of 155)
Throughout OotP, I didn't really have much of an opinion on Cho for her jealousy, support, etc. [basically her overall character] I just got a little bit annoyed [well maybe not a little] that when things didn't work out with Harry in the end, she went off with Michael Corner. I think that Cho is a nice girl, and smart [duh] but, IMO, she's probably the type that always needs a guy by her side. Her relationship with Harry will most likely not continue on a romantic level, since Harry has other things he needs to attend to [Sirius's death], and she has another boyfriend. It was probably just a short infatuation...

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Psychedelic Enchantress - Nov 23, 2003 3:01 pm (#56 of 155)
Wannabe writer
Or maybe Hermione (although I sincerely hope not, since I don't have much time for her). That's one of the reasons why Viktor Krum was attracted to her, when he could have had (superficially, though) any girl he wanted. He knew Hermione wasn't interested in his fame, and he liked that.

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Maollelujah - Nov 23, 2003 5:25 pm (#57 of 155)
I think that Cho is a nice girl, and smart [duh] but, IMO, she's probably the type that always needs a guy by her side.

I would rather think that she is the type of girl that always has guys wanting to be at her side.

On another note, how tall is Cho? In PoA she is a head shorter than Harry and Ron calls Harry a midget with glasses in GoF. So say Harry is about five feet tall in PoA, does that make Cho about four feet tall? I think she might be a dwarf then. Smile

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S.E. Jones - Nov 23, 2003 8:56 pm (#58 of 155)
Let it snow!
On another note, how tall is Cho? In PoA she is a head shorter than Harry and Ron calls Harry a midget with glasses in GoF. So say Harry is about five feet tall in PoA, does that make Cho about four feet tall? I think she might be a dwarf then.

I don't know why I'm actually responding to this, but... At the beginning of OotP, it is pointed out that Harry has the look of one who has grown a great deal in a short amout of time, tall and too slim to be entirely healthy. You often see that sometimes when boys hit growth spurts because they grow hieght-wise so fast that it uses up all their body's fuel reserves.... Basically I'm saying that Ron was and always has been taller than Harry, so he makes fun of Harry's hieght by calling him a "midget in glasses" but that doesn't mean that Harry's short or an actual midget. So, if Cho is Harry's hieght or shorter, it doesn't mean she's a midget either. She's probably about average in hieght, I'd say..... Hm, I dearly hope that jumble of sentenses made some sort of sense to someone....

Sorry to break in on the conversation but us vertically challenged individuals must stick together, you know.

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nmnjr - Nov 24, 2003 5:10 pm (#59 of 155)
"Good judgment comes from experience, and experience - well, that comes from poor judgment."
Hear hear, S.E. Jones! Good things come in small packages:)

Girls are normally shorter than boys anyways, so even though I'm not a midget (5'3"), I am much more than a head shorter than my boyfriend. My boyfriend is 6'1/2" so if Cho were my height, Harry could be as short as 5'9" and be a head taller, and that's about average height for a guy.

Edit: Did the calculations for my foreign friends...

5'3" = 160 cm 6'1/2" = 185 cm 5'9" = 175 cm

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Hem Hem - Nov 24, 2003 6:36 pm (#60 of 155)
Harry was a head shorter than Cho in PoA...and at that age, Harry was described as "though still rather small and skinny for his age, he had grown a few inches over the past year". When Harry met Cho, she was about 14/15 years old, whereas he was 13, and still pre-growth spurt. Of course, Cho could have still grown in the following year (GoF), she probably would not have grown that much-- most girls come close to their final height by age 14/15.

Where does this leave Harry and Cho in OotP? Harry had gone through his growth spurt, and the narrator no longer calls him "short" although he is still never labelled as "tall" either. Maybe he is around 5'9" or so...and Cho is probably not much more than 5'2" or 5'3", although that height difference isn't anything remarkable.

Hehe, being 5'3" is tall by my standards ...I'm only 4'11".

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::StinkerBell:: - Nov 24, 2003 6:46 pm (#61 of 155)
Use to be LongLiveSnuffles.....
So am I, Hem Hem... I think that Harry is about average height. Did it say anything about Cho's Height in OoP?

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Nathaniel Shafer - Nov 26, 2003 1:10 am (#62 of 155)
The twists that these posts make continues to perplex me.

Anyway, most people seem to dislike Cho more than I did. In fact, I liked her a deal at the beginning at the book because of her loyalty to Harry throughout GoF. Most non-Gryffindor's thought Harry was an attention seeking prat, but never did. Yes Harry was famous, but that doesn't mean that she only liked him because he was famous. His fame did serve to show that Harry had many admirable qualities. She would know that he is brave, bright, quick-witted, and loyal. Not to mention she does like quidditch. The fact that they were not able to talk about much else just means that as they got to know each other, they discovered they didn't have much more in common.

As for fame, isn't that why Ginny first developed her crush on Harry? When she first saw him on Platform Nine and Three-Quarters she was interested in him precisely because he was famous. The crush started there and didn't end until the summer at the beginning of OoP. It's good that she's friends with Harry for other reasons now, but her crush had little to do with knowing him as a person. She hadn't really talked to him. And yet people seem to adore Ginny and villainize Cho.

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Sly Girl - Nov 26, 2003 1:45 am (#63 of 155)
I don't know if you can say Ginny's crush started on Platform 9 and 3/4's. She was curious about him. I wouldn't say she immediately started liking him. I was under the impression that Ginny became interested in Harry after hearing Ron talk about him all school year and summer. I'm not sure how much his 'fame' really fed into that- I think it's normal for a girl to crush on one of her older brothers friends, regardless of him being 'famous' or not.

As for Cho, I admit I never really understood her point in the story because to me, Harry's feelings for her seemed superficial and her movement throughout GOF was superficial. We only got to see her through Harry's eyes- we knew she was very pretty, played Quidditch and was fairly nice about Harry asking her out. Not a lot of character development there. We know more about Ginny because she's Ron's little sister, she was taken over by the Dark Lord and she's a central figure to our story. (or soon will be) There is also the aspect that some people can identify with the character of Ginny, simply because we understand how utterly embarrassing it is to have a crush on someone. How completely tongued tied and horrible it is to be a girl at that age, with a crush on a boy who saved the world from the darkest wizard of an age. (well, okay, that last bit, not so much) However, I don't think many people can identify with the character of Cho in GOF because we were told next to nothing about her and quite frankly, what we were told about her OOTP (her tantrums, her crying etc) didn't endear her to me at all. I can excuse away her actions by youth and by grief, but I still don't happen to think she's going to be important in books 6 or 7. There's no emotional investment with her character, imho. I don't think JKR is writing her as someone who will be around in the forefront. There is a different way JKR could have written Cho to make us understand her more, but she chose not to write her that way. Whereas the way she writes Ginny is different- we see more into the character of Ginny because she is more important to the story and...to Harry.

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Anastasia Gilbreath - Nov 26, 2003 5:21 am (#64 of 155)
Gryffindor Class of '91
Ok, I am sorry, but I never liked Cho and never will. I guess I am being very immature about this but she took my Harry. Anyone else would have been ok but her.

That was supposed to be my kiss..... waaaaahhhhhh....lol

just kidding

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Lenka - Nov 26, 2003 6:01 am (#65 of 155)
ahhhh essays
"Girls are normally shorter than boys anyways, so even though I'm not a midget (5'3"), I am much more than a head shorter than my boyfriend. My boyfriend is 6'1/2" so if Cho were my height, Harry could be as short as 5'9" and be a head taller, and that's about average height for a guy.

Edit: Did the calculations for my foreign friends... 5'3" = 160 cm 6'1/2" = 185 cm 5'9" = 175 cm"

Thanks, the metrics really help a lot. Smile

I'm 160 cm myself, but I can imagine Cho much shorter than that in GoF... I'm fifteen, and I've grown at least 7 cm in the last year.

You know, sometimes I wondered how exactly could Cho dance with Cedric and all. I mean, she was probably at least a foot shorter than him. Smile

Lenka

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Peregrine - Nov 26, 2003 8:31 am (#66 of 155)
Big shoes. I’m 5’3” too and every wedding I’ve gone to (or anything that may require dancing) I make sure to wear big shoes. Besides, Dumbledore managed all right with Madame Maxine.

I was thinking about this when I was reading Dumbledore’s escape from the Ministry and, Cho’s tantrums aside, I was annoyed at her for how she treated Marietta. I’m not saying she shouldn’t have stuck up for her friend (I thought that was very brave of her), but she didn’t seem too concerned that Marietta nearly got them all expelled and caused Dumbledore to flee. She was more worried about blaming Hermione for not telling them the parchment was jinxed.

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SJ Rand - Nov 26, 2003 10:18 am (#67 of 155)
You stick up for friends, right or wrong. You might beat the stuffing out of them in private, but in public you defend them no matter what anyone else says or thinks.

Cho did that. She also, in her way, stuck up for Harry through all those slanderous articles and all the negative student and parent opinions of him.

Something we do know about Cho: she doesn't toss her friends aside just because other people are down on them. She's been very consistent that way, so having her agree that Marietta was a terrible person would have been out of character.

As to her taking on another boyfriend so soon after Harry, who never really was her boyfriend if you think about it, well it's typical.

When I was a teen, I lost count of how many times I saw friends break up and then immediately start going out with someone else. Sometimes with a friend of the one they just broke up with. I can't remember that we were ever surprised when this happened. It was all a mating dance, and when the music changed people sometimes switched partners.

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S.E. Jones - Nov 26, 2003 11:22 am (#68 of 155)
Let it snow!
Sly Girl: As for Cho, I admit I never really understood her point in the story because to me, Harry's feelings for her seemed superficial.... We know more about Ginny because she's Ron's little sister, she was taken over by the Dark Lord and she's a central figure to our story.

Um, I know this is going to sound like nitpicking but I think this pretty much sums up the difference people make between Cho and Ginny, so I thought I'd respond to it. Of course Harry's feelings for Cho are superficial, it's a teenage crush (his first crush), it's supposed to be superficial. And, as for Ginny being a central character, up till OotP, she wasn't. Not even in CoS, when she was the one possessed by Voldemort, going around attacking Muggle-borns, was she a central character, she couldn't be without giving away that she was the one doing it. If we have more of a sense of fellowship with Ginny Weasley, in my opinion, it is most likely due to knowing the Weasleys as a whole for so long. When you know someone's family, you tend to feel like you know them. Perhaps if we had been introduced to a Mr. and Mrs. Chang and had gotten to know them, along with what we know of Cho, we'd feel differently about her...?

SJRand: Something we do know about Cho: she doesn't toss her friends aside just because other people are down on them. She's been very consistent that way, so having her agree that Marietta was a terrible person would have been out of character.
As to her taking on another boyfriend so soon after Harry, who never really was her boyfriend if you think about it, well it's typical.

SJ, I absolutely agree, it would've been completely out of character for her to have sided with Harry over the Marietta issue, though I've never thought of it that way (good catch!). And, I also quite agree that it's pretty much typical teenage behavior at work, and, if you add that to the stree of grief, it's no wonder we saw such an explosive result (teenage hormones to the tenth power...).

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Sly Girl - Nov 26, 2003 1:53 pm (#69 of 155)
Well, actually Sarah you managed to edit out my parentheses which said (OR soon will be) so it seems a bit unfair for you to nitpick on me when I added that part to my sentence. I think Ginny's past involvement with major themes- Voldemort/Tom Riddle, being part of the Weasley's etc, points to her becoming more involved, a fact in which I know for certain will happen.

I never said his crush wasn't supposed to be superficial- I do understand the nature of teenage crushes- I was merely explaining that our knowledge of Cho was superficial because of his feelings. We knew next to nothing about her because Harry knew next to nothing. I did not say this was either right or wrong and JKR did let us see more of Cho in book 5 as well as letting us see more of Ginny in book 5. And yes, I do agree that we think we know about Ginny because of the connection to Ron, which is something I did mention.

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S.E. Jones - Nov 26, 2003 6:33 pm (#70 of 155)
Let it snow!
I agree that she will become a major player in the series (hense my post, not so far back, about her forming a strong friendship with Harry), I was simply trying to point out that, while we know next to nothing about Cho, we knew next to nothing about Ginny until OotP came out either. We only seemed to know more because we knew more about her family as a whole.... (It wasn't directed specifically at you, Sly. I was just using your post as an example because you so succinctly phrased in one paragraph what others had been arguing in a multitude of posts. I'm sorry if I offended....)

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Sly Girl - Nov 26, 2003 7:26 pm (#71 of 155)
Nah, you didn't offend me. I was just being prickly.

Ah... the conundrum that is Cho Chang. If only JKR knew of the passion that the girl creates in people.

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Hermionefan(#1) - Nov 30, 2003 3:10 pm (#72 of 155)
missing my picture!!!!! *cry cry cry*
Actually, I don't think I was ever bothered by her. I thought she was a bit idiotic in that tea place, Madame Puddifoot's or something like that, but that's about it. I think I started disliking her because I got used to looking at her through other people eyes, people who said she was an idiotic human hose pipe and such. But then I started reading the other comments, and I don't think she's that bad. It's true, she stuck up for Harry, and wished him good luck, and defended him in the Owlery. So I guess she's not bad, just... well, upset and slightly out of place, I guess you could say.

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Orchal Fireb - Dec 1, 2003 8:36 pm (#73 of 155)
I agree Hermione, Cho seems out of place in the books. I understand the juxtaposition between her taking Harry to the quiet Tea Room, and the action that is taking place with Umbridge and so on. So I understand that part of her, but I get kind of bored in the scenes that focus on her. This might change if there was some background on her if she had a longer tale to tell. I don't know, something is just kind of off with her, I bet JKR will remedy this in future books, hopefully

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Susurro Notities - Dec 1, 2003 9:05 pm (#74 of 155)
I always thought Cho was background. A means to show Harry as a normal teenager with a typical teenage crush. I don't think there is a longer tale to tell just as there isn't with most initial teen relationships. I do however think that Cho may end up playing a more important role as friend or foe in the future. This would also be typical of early teen relationships - either the couple ends up as friends (eventually) or as mortal enemies.

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Orchal Fireb - Dec 1, 2003 9:17 pm (#75 of 155)
good point.

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Psychedelic Enchantress - Dec 8, 2003 3:58 pm (#76 of 155)
Wannabe writer
I don't expect to see Cho playing a big part after this (and must say I don't particularly want her to). Harry has got too much on his plate now to have his head addled with silly love rubbish. Now he's been granted the mark of Cain (and not just the scar, this time!), he wouldn't want to endanger anyone he loved, especially not that sort of love...

While she is realistic in that she is mourning for her boyfriend, and testing Harry to see who he likes better, her or Hermione, I do think she came across as rather self-indulgent and dull. People may have different ways of coping with grief, but she shouldn't have constantly reminded Harry of something that was very painful for him too- he was already traumatised enough.

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Lenka - Dec 12, 2003 5:58 am (#77 of 155)
ahhhh essays
I quite understand why Cho was acting that way, in all the scenes that show her. In many of them, I would have never said/done that myself (I wouldn't have stuck up for Marietta, for example, and I wouldn't drag her into DA in the first place), but I understand why Cho did it, and I respect her for sticking up to a friend, and for realizing that it wasn't that easy for Marietta. My reaction was the same as Harry's when I read that. But Cho realized Marietta wasn't betraying them just because she thought it was funny. And I respect Cho for that.

And also, she was able to pretty much live on after Cedric died. I mean, she did a good job pretending nothing had happened, but she felt bad about that too, and she probably wanted Harry to tell her she wasn't betraying Cedric by doing that. And, obviously, harry didn't even realize that.

Ah well. Here I am, defending the person I totaly hated when I first read the book. Smile

Lenka

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Devika - Dec 12, 2003 10:46 am (#78 of 155)
I don't think that Cho had much of a role in any case. She appears to have been put into the books as a sort of diversion, as a kind of window to Harry's adolescent self. She has so far not had any pivotal role to a plot and now that Harry is over her, I think her importance to the book is also over. I don't think we will see much of her now (hope not!)

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Weeny Owl - Dec 12, 2003 11:10 am (#79 of 155)
I think Cho's main purpose, aside from showing that Harry is growing up and is now interested in girls, is grief.

Harry doesn't understand what she's going through or how she can have such a difficult time dealing with what happened to Cedric.

With Sirius dying, Harry knows exactly what it's like to lose a beloved person.

I think we might see a scene in the sixth book where Harry talks to Cho about her grief and his. He might come to a better understanding of her behavior and his own.

I don't think they'll get back together as a couple, but I do think they'll finally come to terms with each other and their losses and be friends.

Personally, I like Cho because she is a kind and compassionate person.

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hipster818 - Dec 13, 2003 10:21 pm (#80 of 155)
I have to agree with Fawkes Forever in the preception of Cho Chang. She is, by description, very pretty and there is atrraction between Harry and Cho. I'm not sure if it will last or carry. But at the same time you have to wonder if this is a transation between the two. I do wonder how she will act if and when we gets a grip on her feelings towards Harry. I have a feeling once the smoke clears there might be another chance between Harry and Cho. Where that goes is anyones guess.

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Fawkes Forever - Dec 16, 2003 9:52 am (#81 of 155)
Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
Thanks Hipster818,
I couldn't actually remember what I'd typed... hee hee, it was oh so long ago. Chos' part is pretty much over in the series.... she'll be there in the background but nothing major will happen. I like Weenys idea of Harry & Cho coming to an understanding ... but I can't see anything more than that! Then again... I never thought they'd get together in the first place... so I have been wrong before

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Gina R Snape - Jan 6, 2004 12:12 pm (#82 of 155)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
I think Cho is an accurate portrayal of a girl her age. She has good points and bad points, and is actually something of a complex character considering she doesn't get that much "screen time."

I thought she was trying to show Harry what it's like/how one behaves when taking a girl out on a date. But then things got all messed up and emotional when they weren't going right.

But to be honest, I didn't see this date going anywhere to begin with. I found it most peculiar that they would agree to go out at Christmastime, and then not interact until February. If they were genuinely interested in courtship, wouldn't they make time to get away and chat in an empty classroom? Talk to each other in the Great Hall? Pass notes to each other? I mean something. Until Valentine's Day came along, it almost seemed to me like Harry had completely forgotten about her, or maybe forgotten they were scheduled to go on a date! These are not good signs for a budding romance.

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Mrs. Sirius - Jan 6, 2004 11:16 pm (#83 of 155)
Mom of 4 in serious lurker mode.
Harry thinks that Cho is very pretty, but other than that there is never anything else about how he feels for her. Harry is never anxious to see Cho, except when he's trying to get her alone to ask her to the Yule Ball.

JKR gives a description of his physical sensations when she is in close physical proximity, but we never see Harry's emotions for her...except on Valentines Day and then it's all confusion.

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freshwater - Jan 6, 2004 11:54 pm (#84 of 155)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
I find it refreshing to find a hero/heart-throb main character who is interested in the opposite sex and dating, but not obsessed by it. It makes sense to me that Harry would feel emotional and even physical reactions to the presence of this pretty girl, but I am glad that JKR has, so far, had him remain more interested or absorbed by the important and more long-term relationships in his life: Sirius, Ron and Hermione, etc. While I wouldn't mind seeing Harry in a more romantic context, I can't believe that JKR would have him involved in anything other than a genuine relationship (friendly and personal) that later becomes romantic (**cough**Ginny**cough**), whether it is short-lived or not.

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Flame Alligator - Jan 7, 2004 4:52 am (#85 of 155)
Cho Chang's defense of her traitorous friend Marietta rules her out as a romantic interest. Marietta's betrayal could have resulted in Harry's, and who knows how many others, death. She's terribly fickled. She seems to want more romance than relationship. Harry needs a girl who's more forthright. I believe he laments to Hermione in OoP when asking Hermione to explain Cho's behavior to him. Am I being to harsh toward Cho?

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Gina R Snape - Jan 7, 2004 10:16 am (#86 of 155)
"The world isn't split into good people and death eaters"
Harry was completely unforgiving in Cho's aligning with Marietta. And I don't blame him for no longer having even the faintest of romantic feelings for her. But how could Marietta's betrayal of been lethal for the DA? They may have been expelled, but not sent to Azkaban. Are you saying their expulsion would have left them vulnerable? Because I think Dumbledore would have ensured their safety in that case.

Cho's loyalty was misguided. But I think she also felt guilty because she roped Marietta in unwillingly.

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SarcasticGinny - Jan 7, 2004 12:20 pm (#87 of 155)
I used to feel like Cho was an idiot, but I'm feeling more and more sorry for her. Something got me thinking: Cho was always described as having a gaggle of girls around her, that is, until OOTP. In this book, Harry notes a few times how remarkable it is to see a popular girl like Cho alone as frequently as he does. Are we to assume that her "friends" got uncomfortable with her floods after Cedric's death and sort of broke away from her? Normally it would be my instinct to query why Cho would pick Marietta out of all her girl friends as her "DA Buddy", but now I'm wondering if Marietta wasn't the only one of the bunch to stand by Cho in her grief; perhaps this could explain Cho's loyalty to her as well. Thoughts?

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fidelio - Jan 7, 2004 1:49 pm (#88 of 155)
That's makes sense; when someone sticks by you in hard times it's understandable why you would feel a lot of loyalty towards them.

One thing that I remember Cho mentioning is that Marietta was reallly worried about her mother because she worked at the Ministry and was worried about possible problems with Umbridge--it sounds like Arthur Weasley wasn't the only person to be fearful about conflict with the bosses--there was probably a regular campaign at the ministry to weed out people who weren't totally "loyal" to Fudge [or Umbridge, perhaps?], no matter how stupidly things were being handled. If Marietta was sticking by Cho because she was woriied about her state of mind after Cedric's death, and was worried about her mother's job, she sounds less to me like a black-souled traitor than a young girl who was decent enough to be concerned about her friends and family, and felt she was stuck in a horrible dilemma. She may also have not been a good enough judge of people to realize how cruel Umbridge was, or have been more frightened of what might happen to herself and her mother than what Umbridge might do to the members of the DA. If you've been brought up to believe that it's important to follow the rules, and do the right thing, and be obedient to and respctful of authority, going against that background can be awfully difficult. Look at how much trouble Hermione has with breaking rules--even though she does manage to justify it to herself every now and then.

But that's Marietta, not Cho. However, if you look at Marietta in this light, it's easier to see why Cho would stick up for her.

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Slyangel - Jan 7, 2004 4:14 pm (#89 of 155)
I think Hermione's ambivalent rule-breaking days are long behind her, personally :-) She's maintained her studious disposition, but she's no longer one to fret about an infraction here or there.

Anyway, I just wanted to add to the discussion that the Cho/Harry business is soooooooo yesterday. I never liked her; she doesn't impress me as his "type". I think JKR's intent was to explore that phenomenon, puppy love; Cho was the excuse for going through the inevitable ups and downs of a first crush.

What Harry *really* needs is a girl full of spit and vinegar to challenge and enthrall him. (I sense a Ginny redux!)

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OkieAngel - Jan 8, 2004 2:31 am (#90 of 155)
I have to say that I'd have never thought that Cho Chang would have merited her own thread on this the most vaunted of HP boards Smile

That said, I don't like her. She reminds me of everything I despised about teenage girls (even when I was one!), especially those cool, popular ones who traveled in packs and woe to those unfortunate ones who strayed across their path. Sure, and maybe she has a few redeeming qualities, but that makes me despise her all the more. She can turn it on and off like a pro. Talk about feminine wiles, and when in doubt, turn on the tears. Seems to me she'd be more at home at Malfoy Manor. Now there's an interesting candidate for new boyfriend of the month, Draco. Anyway, I don't like her, and I'll think of a reason later... Smile

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Devika - Jan 8, 2004 5:46 am (#91 of 155)
OkieAngel, you've put into words just what I think about her. I don't think that she has much of a purpose in the books anyway apart from showing that Harry is interested in girls now. In any case I don't think that she has a future with Harry. It's just a sixth sense thing, but our main character should really go out with someone we know better and don't get a shock from meeting at the first date!

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Flame Alligator - Jan 8, 2004 10:51 am (#92 of 155)
I wholeheartedly agree with Slyangel. Harry definitely needs a fierce partner or else she will be left behind. He does not have time to "figure out indirect female signals". I found Cho and irritation the moment she came on the scene. She is so lame! Her friendship with Marietta should have been axed after the betrayal. Let us hope we don't have to put up with her anymore.

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Maria L - Jan 8, 2004 11:55 am (#93 of 155)
People are reading this?! ::shifty eyes:: They're everywhere!
There are a lot of lame people in real life, and JKR is writing about life. Just shows us that no place (even a magical world) is safe from them Smile

.

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Maollelujah - Jan 8, 2004 5:40 pm (#94 of 155)
Her friendship with Marietta should have been axed after the betrayal.

Why should she? You always give your friends some leeway. Harry didn't axe Hermione after she ratted on him over the new broom in PoA, and nor did he axe Ron after Ron was an annoying git in GoF.

Sure, and maybe she has a few redeeming qualities, but that makes me despise her all the more.

I for one really like Cho. She's smart, pretty, athletic, loyal, everything that Harry needs in a girl. She does have one problem and that is she is not Ginny, who is a fraction better.

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OkieAngel - Jan 8, 2004 10:47 pm (#95 of 155)
Okay, I'm not one to knock another person's opinion, different strokes and all that ya know, but I have to respectfully disagree with the statement that Cho is the type of girl for Harry, and I think that JKR has resolved the romance herself. Harry has seen the truth in Mr. Weasley's words "...and that's why you don't go for looks alone, boys..."(GoF)

As for comparing Cho to Ginny, well I don't think that's a fair comparision on Cho's part. Ginny is quickly becoming an integral character, while Cho was merely Harry's first crush, a means to an end to teach Harry a valuable lesson. Not that I don't think Cho will land on her feet, the feline types always seem to, I just don't think she'll ever be more than "background scenery."

Just my humble opinion, and I tried to be nicer this time

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Joost! - Jan 9, 2004 3:58 am (#96 of 155)
Second line of information
I don't think any romantic relation Harry will have with any girl will be more than "background scenery". The guy has more important things on his mind.

Maybe this is better suited on the 'ship thread...

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Flame Alligator - Jan 9, 2004 8:11 am (#97 of 155)
Joost, Jan. 9, 2004 #96 2:58am

I could not agree more. Perhaps someone with a clearer understanding of loyalty.

Maollelujah, Jan. 8,2004,4:40pm #94

You always give your friends some leeway.

Only a friend can be betray. In the case of Dumbledore's Army, this resulted in the death of Sirius Black. Harry, Hermione, Ron and Neville and who knows who else could have been killed. This is no minor matter between friends. Unforgiveable!! Cho can not be trusted if she thinks she can explain away a serious betrayal.

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Weeny Owl - Jan 9, 2004 10:09 am (#98 of 155)
Flame:

I must disagree with you that the betrayal resulted in the death of Sirius. It caused problems, yes, but if Harry had worked on his Occlumency he wouldn't have seen Sirius being tortured and wouldn't have felt it necessary to go to the Ministry.

I like Cho. I don't think she and Harry will have a relationship, but I do think she's a lovely person who just can't quite cope with Cedric's death. Harry may be able to relate to her more since he knows just how horrible it is to lose a beloved person.

Cho is a compassionate person, and her sticking by her friendship with Marietta shows that she is a good and forgiving friend.

She may not be right for Harry but that doesn't make her a bad person.

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Phineas - Jan 10, 2004 3:40 am (#99 of 155)
Anyway, I don't like her, and I'll think of a reason later... Smile

Well, IMO the reason that Cho is disliked by the majority of readers is not in her personality, but in ourselves. For most readers Harry is more than a character from a book, we feel him like someone we know - a brother, a friend, a son. And naturally we react like Ron reacts to Ginny's boyfriends - we are ready to dislike any girl Harry likes unless it's someone we know and have approved.

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Flame Alligator - Jan 10, 2004 5:16 am (#100 of 155)
Initially, I was very excited about Harry having a girlfriend. Hormones you know. I liked the idea of Cho. She was popular, athletic and pretty. I realized she was grieving over Cedric in OotP but not too grief stricken to start giving Harry a lot of grief. Harry can't talk to her normally. Sometimes, when one has trouble communicating with someone it's not all your fault. The other person is blocking you from relating to them.

Next, she expects Harry to act like some Romeo. So much for grief stricken. I started thinking she was manipulating Harry just to find out if Cedric mentioned her before his death. (Like they had time for chit chat at such a moment.)

I don't think she is a bad person but I do find her irritating. Her loyalty and naiveness toward Marietta's betrayal make her dangerous. Dangerous because she is not a good judge of character or she did not take the DA seriously. Perhaps, she thought it was just a fun club to join.

Too bad Cedric died, he was perfect for her. I hope JKR keeps her away from Harry in the future. True, her king exists in life but do we have to read about her.

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Elanor Mon May 02, 2011 12:31 pm

Phineas - Jan 10, 2004 7:52 am (#101 of 155)
Sometimes, when one has trouble communicating with someone it's not all your fault. The other person is blocking you from relating to them.

That's true in sometimes, but I don't see in the text anything that supports this.

Concerning Cho's loyalty toward Marietta I agree with Fidelio

fidelio 1/7/04 12:49pm

I only want to add that we must not forged that Marietta's memory was modified. And Cho has a chance to do something really useful if she helps Marietta understand what she's done.

How about second chances?

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Madame Librarian - Jan 10, 2004 8:07 am (#102 of 155)
Yes, Phineas, one of the themes JKR repeats is the "2nd chances" theme, and for certain characters, it's clear that what they did in the past was much more evil/dangerous than what Marietta did. After all, she's still a kid, she's got huge parental influence issues, and she was reluctant in the first place to join (Cho sort of bamboozled her to participate).

Ciao. Barb

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hopping hessian - Jan 10, 2004 11:42 am (#103 of 155)
"Extrodinary claims require extrordinary proof" -Bill Nye
Cho is in a very different world from Harry. Her world is filled with the magical equivalents of boy-bands and prom. While she did have wake-up call with the death of Cedric and the DA, she still isn't quite in Harry's world. Sometimes it is good for a person to be in a relationship with someone who is removed from the bad parts of that person's life, but their partner must still have an understanding of what the person is going through. Cho doesn't seem to know or want to know what Harry has to deal with. She still needs time to recover from what happened to her before she can move on to a healthy relationship. I personally don't see her and Harry becoming an item again. Besides, Harry seemed to be disenchanted with her anyway.

As for Marietta, I agree with Fidelo. In her situation, I'm not too certain I wouldn't have done anything different. She could not have had any real understating of the consequences of her actions.

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Warty Harris - Jan 11, 2004 3:25 pm (#104 of 155)
Okay, Cho Chang is my least favorite character, but I think we are being a little mean to her. I think that Cho Chang seems a little out place in the Harry Potter Universe as well. I do not know what it is, but she just seems out of place. I know the argument about her being a typical teenager, but these are not typical teenagers.

What Marietta did was very bad, and if Cho Chang cannot see that, then Harry has every right to be upset with her. I wouldn't trust Marietta again if I were Cho Chang, and I certainly wouldn't talk to her for a while. Even a teenager with emotions and strong friendship with Marietta should have seen how wrong it all was for Marietta to do that. Yet all she can talk about is how Hermione shouldn't have put that curse on everyone.

I can see where some of the emotion comes from. It may even be a good storyline in the Harry Potter series, but I didn't like Cho from the beginning. She was an unsympathetic character. I simply never really saw things through her eyes. Many characters in the book are people almost anyone can relate too, even bad/evil characters, but she just isn't.

I am not to certain what it is about Cho Chang. I think she doesn't belong there, I think that way about Ludo Bagman as well. They are both Typical...maybe a little too typical. They belong in the shallow part of the Harry Potter world pool. Smile

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Lady Nagini - Jan 11, 2004 3:41 pm (#105 of 155)
Edited by Jan 11, 2004 2:42 pm
About Marietta...I'm sure she thought what she was doing was right (her mother works for the MoM), just as HRH & the Order believe what they're doing is right. Just because we know that the latter actually holds the correct view doesn't mean that they characters in JKR's world see it as such. Punishing Marietta for doing what she thought was right would be wrong. *struggles to get back on topic* Cho shouldn't have been expected to break off her friendship with Marietta over that.

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Warty Harris - Jan 11, 2004 3:59 pm (#106 of 155)
I see what you are saying...but... I wouldn't have joined a group, even at my friends request, and then turn everyone in. It was not so long ago that I was a teenager. If I took part in a group at school that is teaching kids something, even if I do not agree with it, that is part of their curriculum, I would not turn them into an authority like umbridge. Put yourself in Marietta's shoes. Would you do what she did? She stabbed everyone in the back. She just should have not said anything.

She especially stabbed Cho in the back, and made a fool out of her in front of everyone there. Yet Cho defends her, and thinks what she did is okay? I would be fuming! Even if I understood where she was coming from. I would want to know whay she would be so two faced.

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Lady Nagini - Jan 11, 2004 4:47 pm (#107 of 155)
Edited by Jan 11, 2004 3:48 pm
Well, say that as a teenager, you were part of a special science club that was teaching concepts that people didn't approve of. And say that your mother worked for the President (or the Prime Minister), and she'd told you to tell the Secretary of State, who was working at your school, about anything weird that was going on.

Barring a rebellious teenage nature, say that you truly believed that the President (and your mother) were right. What would you do?

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Warty Harris - Jan 11, 2004 5:38 pm (#108 of 155)
No I wouldn't tell on them. because I am not a 5 year old tattle tale, but I see what you mean. She left Cho there to get in trouble as well. I would still be furious if I were Cho. She could have been kicked out school. I also would have asked myself what was so wrong with the class? Would my mother really disapprove of it. Also what kind of a mother would trust Dolores Umbridge?

I see what you are saying, but it is as if no one questions what is going on there. They are all magic, Dolores cannot be that big of a threat to them, nor would I have more trust in her to do the right thing then anyone in the group.

If she really thought they were wrong for taking part, then why didn't she simply tell Cho, and not continue with the class? She lied to her. I would take into consideraion my friend before I made a decision like that. Also, when she was confronted by Umbridge in Dumbledore's office she refused to tell them, and lied then as well. It is just shallow, and two faced. Cho did not seem that way, but I think of her that way now.

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Lady Nagini - Jan 11, 2004 6:01 pm (#109 of 155)
Edited by Jan 11, 2004 5:02 pm
Also what kind of a mother would trust Dolores Umbridge?

Well, I believe that there are plenty of parents who trust the MoM and Umbridge. Remember, we are in an extremely privileged position to be able to see what is 'really' going on at Hogwarts and in the WW. Most people don't know any better than to trust Fudge and Umbridge.

If she really thought they were wrong for taking part, then why didn't she simply tell Cho, and not continue with the class?

It's not always easy to make a decision between your friends and what you think is right. Marietta felt she had a duty to tell Umbridge what was going on because she felt that was right. Yes, Cho could have been expelled, but Marietta figured that this illicit behavior was worse than expulsion. Also, it took her most of the year to work up the courage to tell Umbridge; she'd probably been struggling with it for quite awhile.

Also, when she was confronted by Umbridge in Dumbledore's office she refused to tell them, and lied then as well. It is just shallow, and two faced.

She had had her memory modified by this point; correct me if I'm wrong.

Again, Cho shouldn't have been asked to end her friendship with Marietta for doing what she believed was right.

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Warty Harris - Jan 11, 2004 10:06 pm (#110 of 155)
I do not think that Marietta did what she thought was right. If Marietta thought that telling Dolores Umbridge was the right thing to do, or tells her mother, who is going to tell Dolores Umbridge, then she doesn't have very good sense. She is just a teenager, and they are not always level headed, but she really stabbed someone in the back.

1. Cho likes Harry. I'm sure she told Marietta that she likes Harry. Marietta turning Harry in to a headmistress that nobody likes is not going to leave a good impression of Marietta on anybody. Also, she sure didn't think about Cho. The guy that Cho likes is now very upset with Marietta...rightly so!

2.Harry thought that he was doing the right thing by holding the class. You say Marietta should be forgiven for doing what she thinks is the right thing and understood for it, but she didn't understand that Harry believed in what he was doing, and there fore should be left alone to hold the classes now did she. She can judge Harry, but Harry shouldn't judge her?

3.You say that Marietta thought meeting in secret was worse than getting her friend expelled from school? By a headmistress that nobody liked. Almost no students except Draco and pug faced Pansy liked Umbridge, and people ended up disliking her even more as the school year went on. Marietta knew no one liked her and thought her rules were stupid.

Marietta thought about no one but herself. She didn't care she could have got her best friend expelled. She didn't care she made Cho look like a git in front of a boy she liked. She didn't care that Harry thought what he was doing was the right thing to do.

Most of her friends didn't like Umbridge, the whole school disliked her. Except for the Slytherin house. All the teachers disliked her. It was no secret. Did she simply discount all the teachers feelings? They are in an authoritative position.

The more I think about this the more I want to ask what was Cho thinking?

I agree that we as the reader see more, but I can't see anyone really "liking" Dolores Umbridge.

The last part to your reply I will have to check out, but I think even before she had a memory charm placed on her, she was hesitating about telling anyone, because of the curse Hermione had put on her.

Marietta was all wrong, and so was Cho. Before this she was just Fluff, now she is bad bad fluff.

I am going on and on. I need to take a break and calm down Very Happy

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Warty Harris - Jan 11, 2004 10:56 pm (#111 of 155)
Okay I am back, and I have read the Centaur and the Sneak chapter. Marietta never confirms what happened..she is too embarassed by the word sneak breaking out across her face in large purple pimples! She knew she was wrong.Before Shacklebolt put the memory charm on her she wouldn't tell.

Cho thought that all should be forgiven because her Mum works for the ministry of magic. She's Really a lovely person and what not. Whatever.

Once again Marietta didn't do what she thought was right, or she would have not cared that a Jinx had put on her. She could have asked Cho to ask Harry to forgive her, but Cho thinks Harry should not think what she did was that bad.

I guess what I am saying is that Marietta thought that what they were doing was wrong. Yet, Cho doesn't think that what Marietta did was wrong - or it is understandable. Marietta is the sneak, and if she is to self centered to see what she did was wrong in the fce of everything...well.. then Harry is right. Cho should have chosen her friends better.

At the end of the book Cho and Marietta are still friends. She could have at least asked her to say she was sorry to Harry. Maybe that is to adult, but now she lost a friend in Harry, and has a questionable companion with Marietta.

Okay, I am done now.

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Lady Nagini - Jan 12, 2004 12:09 am (#112 of 155)
"She could have asked Cho to ask Harry to forgive her, but Cho thinks Harry should not think what she did was that bad."

Hm, was the memory charm still in effect here? If so, I don't know that Marietta knows (as of now) that she did anything wrong.

"Cho should have chosen her friends better."

I don't choose my friends according to their possible allegiance in a war I never thought we were going to have...Yes, Cho probably should have said that what Marietta did was wrong to appease Harry, but I still don't think that, from Marietta's PoV, it was wrong.

I don't know. It's late, and I'm a bit snippy. Please forgive me if I'm repeating myself or coming off as rude, because I truly don't mean to do so. You have valid points, Warty Harris, that I just happen to disagree with.

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S.E. Jones - Jan 12, 2004 12:48 am (#113 of 155)
Let it snow!
How do we know that Cho didn't chew Marietta's ear off (um, metaphorically speaking) after the sneak incident? Just because she didn't dump her friend in public doesn't mean she didn't let her have it in private. There may have been a lot of harsh words and tears shed between the two before Cho meets up with Harry on his way to his Occlumency lesson. If she did have a confrontation with her friend first, it might also explain how Cho knew Marietta's reasoning for doing what she did.

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Flame Alligator - Jan 12, 2004 5:34 am (#114 of 155)
Marietta is a tattle telling traitor. I only have one word to say about Cho Chang...vapid.

Warty Harris, I agree with you. Cho belongs in the muggle world as she does not understand the gravity of the wizard world.

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Fawkes Forever - Jan 12, 2004 8:59 am (#115 of 155)
Crookshanks is not ugly, he's just aesthetically challenged ;o) Hee hee, looks like there's more than one ginger male in Hermiones life!
Thats what I was thinking too Sarah, she might have berated Marietta privately, but publically defended her. Many of us are guilty of that, sticking up for our friends in public, even though we may not actually agree with them! I feel that is an honourable quality in Cho, she sticks by her friend, even if she does know that Marietta is in the wrong.

Someone else mentioned way back in this thread, that Cho seemingly is no longer surrounded by the giggling group of girls as in GoF. Perhaps it could be argued that they are unable to deal with her grief over Cedric, but that Marietta stuck by her, & that Cho feels that she owes Marietta something. Indeed by sticking by her friend, she actually destroys any chance of futhering her relationship with Harry.

It could also be argued that Cho does not understand the implications of Mariettas behaviour completely. After all, we are privy to more information than she is. I doubt she knows the gravity of the situation, & the knock on effect Mariettas actions have had on the ‘powers that be’. To Cho the DA was a fun way to rebel against the system, get chatting to Harry & learn some nifty curses & jinxs to boot! I mean the DA had served its purpose so far as she was concerned, by the last meeting before Christmas, when she stayed behind for a bit of extra curricular activities with Harry under the mistletoe

Also we have to remember that Cho is very jealous of Hermione. Hermione spends most of her free time in Harrys company, something Cho would like to do, but doesn’t necessarily get the opportunity. She wants, (dare I say needs) to have a boyfriend to spend time with, & she wants that boyfriend (at that moment in time) to be Harry, so Cho sees Hermione as a threat.

Harry is very fond of Hermione & Cho knows this & is afraid that this might evolve into something more. The fact that Hermione performed the jinx that disfigured her [Cho’s] friend, could almost be seen by Cho as a personal attack. Harry praising Hermiones handywork only added more fuel to this fire.

Cho isn’t a bad person however, just a bit frivolous!
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Devika - Jan 12, 2004 9:31 am (#116 of 155)
That's exactly the trouble... a person like Harry who is living such a dangerous and serious life really doesn't need someone frivolous, but someone who can understand the kind of pressures in his life. Oops I think this should have been on the ship-ship thread. Please feel free to post it wherever it is appropriate.

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Warty Harris - Jan 12, 2004 8:14 pm (#117 of 155)
Lady Nagini, I was ranting Smile

I am not upset. I just got to thinking about the whole thing with Marietta and Cho, and went on and on and on.......

I actually do see your point and how Cho and Marietta may see it. However...I see Harry's point as well. I do not think this is Cho's fault, but what Marietta did was wrong. When you read the book it is just wrong the way in which She tells Umbridge. Something isn't right about the whole episode.

She(Marietta) got Dumbledore kicked out as well. Dumbledore is an adult. He will probably forgive her. He even protected Marietta when Umbridge started shaking her. He doesn't care, but Cho and Harry should. Think of this from a teenagers point of view. Cho and Marietta are acting like they are eight years old. Did Marietta do this because it is what her mommy would have wanted? If she truly thought it was wrong then she would be upset over the whole sneak in purple pimples thing, and more than willing to tell Dumbledore about it.

Cho thinks Harry should pay attention to her only, and see everything the way she sees it. She thinks he should be mad at Hermione and not be angry with Marietta. This is behavior of a less mature person than 16 or 17.

Some of the way Cho acted is just part of being a teenager and what she has gone through, and it was an important well written part of the book. I thought Cho was kind of a good part of Hogwarts at first, and part of the whole school experience, but now I wish her character would go away.

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S.E. Jones - Jan 12, 2004 8:35 pm (#118 of 155)
Let it snow!
Cho thinks Harry should pay attention to her only, and see everything the way she sees it. She thinks he should be mad at Hermione and not be angry with Marietta. This is behavior of a less mature person than 16 or 17.

I don't think so, er, that it is less mature than a 16-17 year old teen. I've known too many teens in this age range, both recently and when I was that age, that acted this way, especially when they'd only dated once before or not at all before the current boyfriend/girlfriend. I admit, though, that teens vary. I would've never acted the way Cho did, but that's me. However, as I've said, I've known plenty that would and have. Her actions aren't that far removed from "normal" (which is a relative term any) teenage behavior.

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Warty Harris - Jan 12, 2004 9:41 pm (#119 of 155)
Being Jealous of Hermione would be normal. The way that Cho acted about Hermione was not what bothered me. Even Hermione saw how Cho could be upset. I think the real issue for me is what happened with Marietta. Let me put it this way. Between Marietta and Cho there was embarrasment, blushing, and lot of Defensive things said about what happened. Both Cho and Marietta knew that what Marietta did was wrong. Yet Cho is too stubborn to really confront it, and then cannot see why Harry will not forget about it and forgive Marietta. She knows why he won't, she just thinks that a smile from her will make everything go away. That was wrong.

She then starts in on Hermione again, something a typical teenager may do. This part is not what got to me. What is not teenager behavior is the way in which she thought that she could make everything be better, and then when it didn't get better doesn't see the error of her ways, but blames someone else. This is behavior of a little girl who got caught doing something bad, and doesn't understand why she can't get away with it.

She has been through some tough times. What happened with Marietta was not really her fault. The way she chose to handle it was bad. As an adult I would not have any bad feelings towards Cho. She has enough problems. As a teenager, who almost had their school career cut short, I would have been infuriated. I may eventually forgive her if I were Harry, but I wouldn't really want to see her again.

Marietta..........I would never forgive!

Well....never say never.

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S.E. Jones - Jan 12, 2004 9:52 pm (#120 of 155)
Let it snow!
As I said, just like many 16-17 year olds I know (no offense to my fellow forum-goers who might be in their teens!).

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Warty Harris - Jan 12, 2004 9:59 pm (#121 of 155)
No no...think back. You may have known some teenagers who didn't care that they got caught doing something bad :)A sixteen year old girl shouldn't think that a smile and a phony apology should mean she gets away with it. Teenagers can be cruel and a school environment punishing, she should know better than that by now.

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Maollelujah - Jan 13, 2004 1:27 am (#122 of 155)
Yet Cho is too stubborn to really confront it, and then cannot see why Harry will not forget about it and forgive Marietta. She knows why he won't, she just thinks that a smile from her will make everything go away. That was wrong.

I don't think that Cho really understands how Harry views the incident nor the world he lives in. I don't think nobody really does. Some people like Ron, Hermione, and Ginny have some knowledge of what Harry is going through, but Cho and the rest of the school don't. And even those that have some knowledge of Harry's world, they don't fully understand that it is truly a matter of life/death to him.

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Flame Alligator - Jan 13, 2004 4:46 am (#123 of 155)
In defense of teenagers, Cho's behavior is not typical teenage behavior. It is indicative of her personality. I now plenty of adults who behave in the same manner. What I find disconcerting is her use of feminine wiles. In order to manipulate Harry, she either smiles ethereally or crys. Uhh!! She is never direct. Correction, except when she wants to know if Cedric was talking about her when he died. As for her jealousy of Hermione, this I comprehend to a point. It would seem that after several years a Hogwarts, a female would notice that they are more friends than romantic partners. I support Warty Harris's comment that Cho wants Harry's entire focus on her.

Then there is her attempt to get Harry to forgive Marietta. Please! She's pretty but not that pretty. You would have to be a Veela to get away with that.

I agree with all who deem her frivolous but she is also vapid and I think JKR writes her this way on purpose. We all know her type. Some of us don't mind Cho's personality and some of us recognize her and do not like her because of her nature. This does not mean there is no room for her to develope into a character we can all support but I doubt it.

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S.E. Jones - Jan 13, 2004 5:42 am (#124 of 155)
Let it snow!
Warty, I was both thinking back and relying on my acquaintances with teenagers that age now. I, like Flame Alligator, was also thinking of some adults I know who never quite grew out of that "selfish" phase, unfortunately.

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Warty Harris - Jan 13, 2004 7:29 am (#125 of 155)
Yes, I agree with you both. It is not teenage behavior. I know a woman at work that is in her 50's and is not mean, she is actually pretty nice, but for some reason can become very mean, blame people for her actions, and try to get them in trouble, and then expects to be forgiven and everything forgotten when she is exposed as the problem. This is someone never growing past the age of seven or eight.

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fidelio - Jan 13, 2004 8:07 am (#126 of 155)
Well, if a technique works, you tend to stick with it, right? Whether we like it or not, the world often permits pretty people to get away with a lot of things--look at the young Sirius Black! A lot of people are as mature as they are expected [or compelled] to be--both in the real world and in JKR's. My father was a college professor, and after he got back to campus after his service in World War II, he said that many of the new students coming in, who were veterans, were a lot more mature and level-headed than the average student their age--they'd been living and coping with circumstances that forced them into it, so that at 20 or 21 they had the attitude of someone much older. To a certain extent, this has happened to Harry, although he still has moments where you realize just how young he is, and it certainly shows in Hermione--probably because her parents expect it of her. Cho simply hasn't had to deal with the same problems, and while I think she has some intellectual concept of the problems they face, she doesn't have the emotional understanding. Her view of the situation is much more romantic--and not in a love-affair sense of romance, but in a high-heroic fairy tale sort of sense. I can respect her feeling that she should stand up for a friend who has stuck by her, even as I realize that she and the friend are in a situation where they have no clue and are completely out of their depths. Sure, Umbridge is nasty and dangerous, but she's a mosquito compared to Voldemort. However, to someone who has no personal experience of Voldemort, and has probably heard only hints about what he did, before they were born, Umbridge may well look pretty nasty--particularly if she has the ability to make one of your parents lose their job. Like everyone else in the Wizarding World outside the Order, Cho and Marietta need to wake up and smell the coffee. I can't say that this makes them immature--not when adults are equally clueless, in part because they are being kept in the dark.

It's hard to grasp how dangerous a situation really is, unless you have either personal experience of it, or truly serious training designed to prepare you for it. This is one of the reasons firemen are trained in part by putting out actual fires--it's the only way to get through to them just how risky it is. Cho and Marietta haven't been in the fire, and so they are still dealing with the world they knew, not the world that is arriving. There have been plenty of people who did the same, old and young, throughout human history.

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freshwater - Jan 13, 2004 5:23 pm (#127 of 155)
Connections, speculation, discussion: the best part of HP reading! Check out the on-going HP Lex Forum series re-read! Currently reading GoF...
Fidelio...that's a very good explanation of Cho's and Marietta's perception and consequent actions and feelings. They "know" about Voldemort, but only in the intellectual sense. Yes, Cho's boyfriend Cedric was killed on LV's orders, but she did not witness it and has not completely come to terms with that death. Remember Ron's reaction to the Dark Mark at the Quidditch World Cup (along the lines of "What's the big deal?") and his father's reaction to him (along the lines of "you're too young and don't remember what it was like back when LV was in power"). That is true of most of the current students at Hogwarts...similar to youngsters now viewing the Vietnam War as ancient history with no real connection to our life now, while we middle-agers recall seeing death and injury on every evening news show, and years of stories about former soldiers suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. Both Cho and Marietta probably have trouble envisioning anyone more evil than Umbridge or Snape, simply due to the protected nature of their lives. That certainly does not excuse betrayal...but it does put it in a different light...one where it makes sense that Marietta and her friend Cho may not grasp the enormity of what she has done.

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Warty Harris - Jan 13, 2004 8:16 pm (#128 of 155)
This is all true with the bigger picture of things. On a more personal level what Marietta did was disturbing. She could have gotten her friend expelled. She didn't warn Cho, or talk to her about her(Marietta's) feelings that the classes were wrong. She just turned her in.

Why?

Because it is what her mom wanted? Because she wanted to get in good with Umbridge? Because she couldn't keep a secret? Because she thought it was the right thing to do?(Which I doubt)

Forget about Voldemort. Marietta is enough.If Cho were in hiding from Death Eaters and If Voldemort wanted to find where Cho was, I am sure Marietta would let him know.

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fidelio - Jan 14, 2004 7:07 am (#129 of 155)
Then again, if she's that easily intimidated, she might just pass out from sheer terror! One thing that just occurred to me, and which I don't think has been brought out, is that Marietta may have bought into the Harry-Potter-is-a-dangerous-nutjob propaganda. If Cho was obsessing over him [she sounds like that sort of girl], she might have convinced herself she "needed" to "rescue" her friend from his dangerous influence . Now, we know what we think of all that, but it's a possible motivator. As for "doing something because her mother wanted her to", I ask the parents on this Forum, would you want your 15 or 16 year old to give some consideration to your wishes and opinions, seeing as how they are probably still dependent on you for support and all? We're used to the fact that Harry is essentially operating independently of parental authority because he has to, and it's easy to forget that most of the other students at Hogwarts do in fact have involved parents or guardians. I won't claim that parents are always right, but I do think a minor child should pay some attention to what their parents say! True, at the age of 15 or 16, a young person should be learning to make decisions and take responsibility for their choices, but if you stop and look at how often Harry wishes he has actual parents to talk things over with, and get advice and guidance from, I don't think JKR intends to dismiss the role of parents altogether.

For my two knuts' worth [OK, between this post and the last, we're getting close to half a sickle! ] Marietta probably felt she was in a dreadful dilemma, worried about getting her mother into trouble, full of misdirected anxiety about Cho, and made a choice--the wrong one, we agree. It wouldn't even surprise me to find out that when she tried to explain this to Cho, she didn't get much gratitude--imagine having your friend tell you that she felt she needed to rescue you from an unsuitable potential boyfriend, when you didn't see any problems with him, other than his attachment to Hermione Granger! As a sidelight, I can see how aggravating Hermione must be to Cho and a good many other girls at Hogwarts--she doesn't worry about dolling herself up to get male attention; she gets better grades than most, if not all, of them; she gets the attention of two of the most attractive male properties to hit Hogwarts--Viktor Krum, international Quidditch star and Harry Potter, star athlete and miracle boy; and when she does take the trouble to 'do herself up' she's quite pretty. No wonder Cho gnashes her teeth and snarls whenever Harry mentions her name! If only their little world had no worse problems that Hermione Granger's inexplicable attraction for desirable young men, Cho and Marietta would be fine. Poor girls--it's the revolution and their hair is in curlers.

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Warty Harris - Jan 14, 2004 9:19 pm (#130 of 155)
LOL fidelio, that is funny. It also makes sense... about how Cho might have felt about Marietta and what might have been going on between the two of them.

Let us look at this another way.

What if Cho had been caught? What if Dobby didn't get there in time? Cho would have been expelled, and perhaps be put in a dangerous position. She would have been even more humiliated. She would have lost her place on the quidditch team, her grades would have plummeted, and she would have Draco as an enemy for associating with Harry. Ravenclaw would have been hurt, and the whole school demoralized even further. Now granted Marietta didn't take this all into consideration, but there is really no reason to such a thing to your friend for breaking one rule.

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fidelio - Jan 15, 2004 11:36 am (#131 of 155)
Of course she didn't--or if she did, she figured it was the lesser of two evils!

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Skylar1434 - Jan 21, 2004 11:28 am (#132 of 155)
Hello. This is my first post, but I gotta say it. I don't trust Cho. Something about her made me uneasy from the beginning of OoTP. Why does she always hiccup? SOMETHING is up with that.

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Julia. - Jan 21, 2004 1:03 pm (#133 of 155)
74% obsessed! Uconn Jew Crew says: is it August yet?
Hi Skylar! Welcome to the Forum. If you've got a second, head over to the "Tell us about yourself" thread, and introduce yourself.

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Nathaniel Shafer - Jan 22, 2004 11:54 pm (#134 of 155)
I disagree that we know that Cho would have been expelled had Dobby not arrived in time. I realize the High Inquisitor's executive order unequivocally states, "Any student found to have formed, or to belong to, an Organization, society, Team, Group, or Club that has not been approved by the High Inquisitor will be expelled."

That notice notwithstanding, I doubt she would have expelled everyone. The reason I say this, is that she in fact did not expel everyone, but if the notice is to be taken literally, she could have. Even if she entirely believed Dumbledore's account of events - that he organized and recruited all the students, the way the notice is written, she could have expelled every last one of them.

The reason she did not, though, is because she made some political considerations. Had Dumbledore not taken the blame, I doubt she would have expelled 28 people from Hogwarts. Even if we accept that Hogwarts has 1000 people (I don't) expelling 28 is a huge number. Furthermore she would had to expel 6 out of 8 prefects for the fifth years (Ron, Hermione, Ernie, Hannah, Anthony, and Padma are all members.) I know she is ostensibly trying to reform the school, but losing the leaders of the school would undermine her own goal.

More likely she would have done an inquiry into what happened and who did what with the intention of ferreting out the instigators. Undoubtedly, she would have expelled Harry. Hermione and Ron would almost certainly be expelled, as well as Fred and George based on their lest than stellar behavior record. But the rest would probably have been let of with a very stern warning and put on probation where Umbridge watches them closely.

That being said, it takes a big person to forgive one's friends. While she is emotionally immature, Cho does show loyalty above and beyond her age. It has taken me a long time to learn to forgive some of my friends. Sure I will execrate them in private, but I do not air my dirty laundry in public, so to speak.

Finally, it should be taken into consideration that none of the D.A. members were expelled. Because the reader does not see through Marietta's eyes, we do not entirely know her intentions. Cho seems to think that her intentions were good, and one of the reasons she seems to forgive her is because no D.A. members were expelled. She says to Harry, "We all got away, didn't we?"

I point this out not because I am a Cho-Harry shipper. (Goodness no! after all even Madam Pomfrey can't get rid of the pimples and consequently at the end of the book Marietta has to wear a balaclava.) Rather, I say it because Cho seems to get the sort of treatment on this thread usually reserved for Death Eaters. Even though she may not be right for Harry, she is not a malevolent person. She is loyal to a fault, but that loyalty also works in Harry's favor throughout Goblet of Fire. I agree that she will recede into the background, but I don't think she deserves such harsh treatment.

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Crystal - Jan 24, 2004 3:08 pm (#135 of 155)
Edited by Jan 24, 2004 2:10 pm
I don't think that she deserves such harsh treatment either, but I think that we are overlooking the way in which Cho treated Harry. Everyone thinks that she was being loyal to Marietta, but why not understand how Harry may feel? She is not taking his feelings into consideration at all. Only her feelings and Marietta's. Does she just assume that all will be forgiven because they didn't really get into any trouble? She does not see what happened clearly. Marietta turned everyone in to the high inquisitor, I do not think it was wrong for Cho to forgive her, but to defend her went to far, and then to get upset when Harry doens't see things her way was not being fair to Harry. I do not think she was being a very good friend to Harry. She wasn't being very loyal either.

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virgoddess1313 - Jan 24, 2004 8:44 pm (#136 of 155)
I look at it this way: she wasn't entirely fair and she certainly wasn't very loyal to Harry, but she is afterall, a teenanger. Having just barely begun to claw my way out of the vicious teenage stage of life, I sort of see why she acted like she did. When I was her age, I was right, it didn't really matter what the evidence was against me. If Cho thinks she is right defending Marietta, then she's going to stand by it. Not to say that she is right in acting like she has by any means, but all the same I don't think she is a bad person, just another of us misguided teenagers :-)

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siobhan - Jan 25, 2004 2:30 pm (#137 of 155)
Being 16 I can understand her actions from a teenage PoV. Girls at my age can be screwed up some times. I've fallen out with lots of friends and made up again with them mainly because we can understand that we all have our moments of insanity and we all can be selfish not that we're bad people we're just going through a hard time. If teenage girls did not forgive their friends for betrayals none of them would have friends. So with Cho and Marietta Cho understands that obeying her parents was important to her and probably feels guilty that it was her forcing her to go to the meetings in the first place.

As for Cho and her treatment of Harry, she was jealous and who would blame her. Her boyfriend spent most of his time with Hermione and barely one date with her in which he started to talk about her.

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Flame Alligator - Jan 26, 2004 12:08 pm (#138 of 155)
I haven't been a teenager in a long time and had no idea that betrayal was taken for granted in friendship. If this is the standard, then I guess Marietta and Cho are the kind of girls one would want as friends. Harry is NOT Cho's boyfriend. He was certainly trying but her defense of Marietta's betrayal ruined her chances. At least, I hope so. Marietta is still part of the chain of events that led to the death of Sirius. Harry is usually forgiving but in this case I am hoping he doesn't.

Hermione is a loyal and trusted friend to Harry. She has never abandoned him or betrayed him. Who cares if Cho is jealous? Cho would completely isolate Harry so she could torment him to her hearts content. All under the guise of being a nice person.

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Maollelujah - Jan 26, 2004 8:43 pm (#139 of 155)
Didn't Hermione rat out on Harry in PoA? I remember she told Professor McG about the firebolt that Sirius sent him.

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Warty Harris - Jan 26, 2004 9:04 pm (#140 of 155)
Wooo Flame Alligator...brutal....but your right. As adults it seems very bad that people would do this to each other. Try to place Cho and Marietta in a similar situation as adult women. They would no longer be friends. I know I wouldn't want to hang out with someone like that. I may forgive, but I would not want to talk with her. I would be more loyal to Harry.

I also do not hink it is "just being a teenager" either. Both women are acting like spoiled little Daddy's girls. They did something bad, and something questionable, but don't think they should be judged by it, even as they judge others......everybody judges by the way, but both girls do not empathize with anyone but themselves.

Marietta and Cho are not adult women, but they are not seven year old little girls....they are somewhere in between, but this is one instance where the right thing to do was very clear, and they still couldn't see it.

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Devika - Jan 27, 2004 3:28 am (#141 of 155)
Well... I am a teenager, and I don't think that Cho's behaviour can be attributed to or even excused by her 'teenageness'. At least in my circle loyalty counts for a lot. A tattletale is quite promptly snubbed by the rest of the gang. I thought teenagers would pride themselves on sticking together and keeping secrets. I think that Cho standing up for Marrietta wasn't the typical teenage thing.

As for Hermione telling McGonnagall about the Firebolt, we mustn't forget that till Harry got back his broom he or Ron didn't talk to Hermione either and gave her the royal snub. It was only when they realised that her intentions were right and that it was all well in the end that they got back to being friends. If for instance, the Firebolt had been damaged permanently by the tests I would bet they wouldn't have made friends with her again. That way I think it was quite abnormal for Cho to stick up for Marrietta even when she knew that what her friend did had resulted in a lot of people getting into trouble and unless my memory fails me, even getting the Headmaster out of school.

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virgoddess1313 - Jan 27, 2004 7:04 am (#142 of 155)
I don't think her being a teenager complete excuses her, but it does explain some of her behavior... there were times I acted a lot like Cho. I've grown out of that (thank goodness). I do think she did show loyalty for Marietta though, and whether or not either of them were in the right, I believe this is admirable and shows that Cho has at least some redeeming qualities.

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Flame Alligator - Jan 27, 2004 7:06 am (#143 of 155)
Whew! Devika, Thanks. As one who is always an advocate of teenagers, I was feeling a little melancholy about the posts regarding betrayal as de regueur for teenagers. In my friendships with teenagers and adolescents, I have found that they are often times than not, closer to reality then a lot of adults. They simply lack experience. I treat teenagers as equals.

I agree with you about the Firebolt incident. I will forgive just about anything if you have a valid reason. I consider betrayal a friendship breaker 99.9% of the time.

I completely understand that Cho doesn't understand (as I have said before on this thread) the gravity of the situation. This makes her untrustworthy. To add insult to injury, she trys to explain it all away to Harry and takes a shot at Hermione in the process. (*hissssss*) She is so vapid that I always imagine a nebula surrounding her, when I read about her. This could be the effect of Harry's fascination. He was almost hooked.

Warty Harris, I liked that "spoiled little Daddy's girls". LOL

Since I regard teenagers so highly, I take them very seriously and hold them to the same standards as adults. I do give leeway to youthful folly. Certainly teenagers know what betrayal is even if they neglect to consider all the consequences of such an action. Teen years are hard and brutal. It is where we adults learn that betrayal can not be tolerated. With that said would any of you want Cho and Marietta as friend and confidant? Would you trust them with a secret?

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Joost! - Jan 27, 2004 8:27 am (#144 of 155)
Second line of information
I think you're confusing Cho and Marietta here. Marietta betrayed Harry and DA, so no I wouldn't want her for a friend and confidant. But Cho stood up for her friend against a boy she hardly knew, like any good friend would do. Maybe Cho and Marietta aren't speaking to eachother anymore, we don't know, but Cho did the right thing in my opinion.

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Sharker11 - Jan 27, 2004 3:39 pm (#145 of 155)
Well Cho is loyal to her, but Marietta isn't loyal back. But, not all loyalty is a good thing, the DE's are loyal to Tommy, but would you look up to them? I think her supporting Marietta had more to do with her getting away with it, and as many other have said, her lack of understanding of the situation.

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Warty Harris - Jan 27, 2004 8:25 pm (#146 of 155)
Thanks Flame Alligator. I think how Sharker11 explained it is perfect. I have written more words trying to say the same thing.

Wink

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virgoddess1313 - Jan 27, 2004 8:30 pm (#147 of 155)
I think loyalty is generally a pretty important thing, even if it is misplaced. We don't know any history behind Marietta and Cho's friendship, maybe they go way back. I have friends I would remain extremely loyal to even if they were wrong, although, unlike Cho I at least have the sense to admit that they are wrong. I don't particularly like Cho, but I think we are way to hard on her. She is sort of a princess, but she may grow out of it one day. Days are getting darker in the wizarding world, she may realize she needs to mature some. Not to say that she will, but here's hoping.

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boop - Feb 2, 2004 7:57 am (#148 of 155)
Lexicon Forum Mom
Maybe over the summer Cho will get the counseling that she needs so bad. The death of Cedric has not been dealt with yet. I also feel that Cho was just being a loyal friend to Mariette. I do agree that she could have knowledge the mistake her friend made.

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Mare - Feb 29, 2004 3:05 pm (#149 of 155)
It will be very interesting to see what Cho is going to be in book six. One of the last things we see of her is not so pretty, she is breaking a broom over a lost quidditch game and hanging out with only one, rather sneaky, girlfriend. What happened to the popular girl who was nice enough not to laugh at Harry or were buttons during GoF?

She had to deal with a lot since the ending of book four, but unlike Harry, she doesn't have friends who have grown with her, from one threat to a bigger one, from one danger to another hospitalvisit. She has to deal with the consequences of Voldies return on her own, but due to Cedric, she is one of the first in the wizarding world who actually has to deal with it.
In OoP Most of the wizards were still living their normal lives, while HRH and the order are one big step ahead and preparing themselves for war. And Cho, poor Cho is somewhere in between, knowing Voldie is back, but not knowing what to do with that knowledge. And there is no-one who helped her with it. (I think this is were Harry could have helped out if hadn't seen her as potential girlfriend material)
I think that last game of quidditch ment a lot to her, beating Gryffindor in a way means beating Harry and his friends (Hermione!), thereby regaining some of her self-confidence.
That obviously didn't went as planned.

I still hope that for the next book Cho regains some of her former selve and can have a normal discussion with Harry, now that he isn't captived by her good looks anymore. I still see Cho as a potential allie and back-up, like the Hufflepuff group is. And I think she could be a pretty powerful one if she wanted to be.

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Czarina - Feb 29, 2004 3:53 pm (#150 of 155)
Interesting points.

"I still see Cho as a potential ally and back-up, like the Hufflepuff group is."

I agree. I don't think she's been written out entirely. Hogwarts doesn't seem that big and I think Harry will HAVE to interact with her at some point over the next two years. Still, I think she might very well rejoin the DA, or its successor club (that's no longer secret).

Cho will probably need some space to recover though. I can see Rowling pushing Cho out of the picture long enough for her to deal with her problems and for Harry to deal with his grief (and maybe fall in love with someone else? ie. Ginny :-)); Cho would then reappear to either rejoin the DA after Christmas/Valentine's in Bk6. Since she is supposed to graduate at the end of Bk6, she might appear again in Bk7 out of Hogwarts -- maybe working for the Ministry (under new direction) or just as an innocent bystander who gets caught in something. I have the feeling a lot of attacks are going to take place in Bk7. One of them could be on Cho.

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hopping hessian - Mar 6, 2004 6:50 am (#151 of 155)
"Extrodinary claims require extrordinary proof" -Bill Nye
Considering that JKR said in her most recent interview that Cho and Harry's relationship was over, I doubt she'll surface again. I mean, what purpose does she honestly serve?

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Mare - Mar 6, 2004 7:17 am (#152 of 155)
Well what purpose do Lavender and Parvati have for that matter?

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Psychedelic Enchantress - Mar 6, 2004 10:19 am (#153 of 155)
Wannabe writer
Edited by Mar 6, 2004 9:21 am
They're mainly there to act as foils to Hermione- giggly, vapid girly-girls as opposed to the one girl powerhouse who is our heroine.

Cho was interesting in that while she was obviously clever (Ravenclaw credentials) and "easy to talk to" (when she was concentrating on Harry's passion Quidditch, and not crying), she had an equal amount of frivolity too. Let's say that she's a "typical" girl- not hugely intellectual but not a powder puff either.

I still don't like her much, though.

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hopping hessian - Mar 6, 2004 11:07 am (#154 of 155)
"Extrodinary claims require extrordinary proof" -Bill Nye
Neither do I. IMHO, she did her thing as Harry's first "love" and that's all she wrote. With Lavender and Co, well, you have to have others from the same house interact with. With Cho being in a different house (that is now represented by someone much more intersting Smile

, I can't see her popping up again.

At least I hope not Razz

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NYCNomad - Mar 24, 2004 8:49 am (#155 of 155)
I agree with Hopping, in her last interview JKR said that Harry and Cho would have never worked out, better that it was over with quickly. She also hinted towards his next couple kisses in the next book.

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Sir Tornado - Jul 29, 2004 12:21 am
Edited by Kip Carter Nov 17, 2005 2:23 am

It surprises me there isn't a thread for Cho, because she certainly had a greater role in OoP than any of the other books. So, what do you all think? Will her relationship with Harry continue? Did JKR include her just to show Harry was growing up? Will she come up later in the series, or is her role over? Also, what do you think of her as a person? Caring? Selfish? Do you hate her or like her? This is the place to discuss everything related to Cho Chang.

The giant squid - Jul 29, 2004 2:29 am (#1 of 391)

Tornado, there used to be a Cho thread. It stalled out and ended up being archived here: Lenka "Cho Chang" 5/24/04 3:34am

Loopy Lupin - Jul 29, 2004 8:50 am (#2 of 391)

Did JKR include her just to show Harry was growing up”--Tornado

Bingo. There had to be a "first crush" type thing. Now Harry can move on to Pansy unfettered.

Prefect Marcus - Jul 29, 2004 9:37 am (#3 of 391)
Edited by Jul 29, 2004 10:37 am

There was nothing "wrong" with Cho. She was a nice, pretty girl that Harry had his first crush on. No big deal.

Now he can move on to his real 'ship.

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 29, 2004 10:25 am (#4 of 391)

Um, no. Cho is a seriously messed-up girl. She's a manipulator who used Harry in order to advance herself socially and dump her problems on. She was certainly not "nice".

vball man - Jul 29, 2004 11:05 am (#5 of 391)

Right - Cho gets what she wants from boys by looking cute. It's hard to say if she's naive, and thinks that's normal, or if she's deliberately being manipulative.

Needless to say, I don't like her very well. Harry won't waste much time on her, I bet. Perhaps he'll follow Arthur's advise, and not go "for looks alone."

Padfoot - Jul 29, 2004 11:05 am (#6 of 391)
Edited by Jul 29, 2004 12:06 pm

I am not a big fan of Cho Chang’s, but I think she deserves a little slack. Her boy friend was murdered when she was 15. Being a teenager is hard enough without having that thrown in. Sure her emotions are mixed up, but who wouldn't be in that state? Yes she did dump her problems onto Harry which turned out to be a bad idea. I do not think she advanced socially at all with dating Harry. Nor was that her goal.

Now saying all that, I am not a fan of her because as a character, she was annoying to read about. She was always crying and was not suited to Harry.

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 29, 2004 11:36 am (#7 of 391)

The fact is, Cho obviously wasn't too upset about Cedric. Why? Because as far as most people were concerned, Harry killed him. So why would she go out with the guy who (from her point of view) killed her boyfriend if she actually cared about him?

Loopy Lupin - Jul 29, 2004 12:04 pm (#8 of 391)

The fact is, Cho obviously wasn't too upset about Cedric. Why? Because as far as most people were concerned, Harry killed him. So why would she go out with the guy who (from her point of view) killed her boyfriend if she actually cared about him? -- Luke E.A. Lockhart

Ok, whoa people. Padfoot is right. Cho's boyfriend was murdered when she was 15. And, I might add, up until she stuck up for Marietta, she was rather justified at all turns. (This includes her behavior at Madam Puddifoot's because Harry was extremely clueless to suggest meeting another girl during his Valentine's date with Cho.) She was certainly confused since (I think) she liked Harry too, but Cedric beat him to the punch in asking her out.

Luke, there is no support anywhere in the canon for the idea that anyone suspected Harry of killing Cedric, much less Cho. Umbridge, herself, called it an "accident." During OoP, the Ministry was keen to silence Harry. What better way to have silence him that accuse him of murder and put him in Azkaban pending trial. Even the Ministry didn't try that. (Which, by the way, is one of the things that bothered me in OoP; Harry was obviously the last person to see Cedric alive, but wasn't suspected of any involvement in his death at all.)

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 29, 2004 12:27 pm (#9 of 391)

OK, point taken, I guess.

However, I must dispute the idea that her standing up for Marietta was justified. Marietta did what she did out of conformism - that's never justified, and she deserved everything she got.

Padfoot - Jul 29, 2004 12:33 pm (#10 of 391)

Luke, I think you misread what Loopy said. He said: And, I might add, up until she stuck up for Marietta, she was rather justified at all turns. The underline is mine. I think most of us would agree that Cho standing up for Marietta was not a good decision as far as Harry was concerned.

Prefect Marcus - Jul 29, 2004 2:38 pm (#11 of 391)

Loopy - (Which, by the way, is one of the things that bothered me in OoP; Harry was obviously the last person to see Cedric alive, but wasn't suspected of any involvement in his death at all.)

Sounds like a good topic of discussion elsewhere. I think it simply demonstrates the eternal-inconsistancy of Fudge's position.

Star Crossed - Jul 29, 2004 4:46 pm (#12 of 391)

At first, I really disliked Cho, but she sort of grew on me. Right now I'm fourteen, and in a few months, I'll be fifteen. I'm trying to imagine what Cho was going through with her boyfriend killed. I think I'd cry, too. Cho and Cedric really got along well, it seems to me. I'm constantly around kids who after a week from dating, they get bored. At my age, girls cry for a week because their boyfriend, whom they didn't even like that much anyway, broke up with them. Now, I love girls, heck, I am one. But we cry a lot. At least, at my school we do. I can totally see a girl crying for months because her boyfriend, whom she really, really loved died. And it was such a sudden thing. She did not see him die, never got to say goodbye. (Hm, that rhymes. That would make some really good lyrics. Ode to Cho.)

Now, for dating Harry right after. I see this as she's trying to be strong, trying to move on (Again, with the lyrics.). She doesn't want everyone to think she's a baby. After all, everyone else has gotten over Cedric dying. On the other hand, she dating Harry can also be taken as a 'What if' sort of thing. What if she said no to Cedric and yes to Harry? What if Harry asked her first? Would Cedric still be alive? And on the other, other hand, Harry saw Cedric die. Part of her needs to hear what happened.

As for defending Marietta, I wanted to cheer out loud for her when I read that. Do I think Marietta did the right thing? Of course not! But this shows how very loyal Cho is. Which is sort of ironic after Ron blamed her for being unloyal for Quidditch. But when her best friend did something wrong, she didn't ditch her. She stuck by her side. After all, Marietta stuck by her side when Cho was in trouble. I think both girls need each other, so they both defended each other.

TomProffitt - Jul 29, 2004 5:12 pm (#13 of 391)

Good stuff, Star Crossed!

All I seem to remember about my teenage years is being shallow. Maybe we weren't as shallow as I remember.

I liked Cho from the get go and have never thought her to be a bad person.

In the same way that Harry never understood her feelings about Cedric, Cho never understood Harry's feelings about He Who Must Not Be Named. They are just two kids trying to find the right match, "Oops, this ain't it, time to move on."

Prefect Marcus - Jul 29, 2004 5:52 pm (#14 of 391)

I think Cho liked both Cedric and Harry in GoF. Cedric got there first, so she dated him for a while.

Then when Cedric died, she started concentrating on Harry. Perfectly natural. However, it was doomed from the start. She and Harry really were just friends more than anything else. They tried to be a couple, but it just wasn't there.

I had several relationships just like that in my dating years. I liked the girl and she liked me, but it just didn't go anywhere. I am happy to say we always parted as friends.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Harry and Cho really only had the one date, right? They didn't even really hang out together at Hogwarts, which they could have. Hardly a barn-burner of a romance.

Gemini Wolfie - Jul 29, 2004 10:14 pm (#15 of 391)

Well said Star Crossed. I still love Cho. Before Book 5, she didn't show any hints of being "messed up". If she's messed up now, then she deserves our sympathy. I see Harry as a rebound. She probably does like Harry just that she isn't so sure if she's doing the right thing. As a guy, I've learned that double standards exist. Cho can talk about another guy on Valentine's but Harry mentioning another girl is a big no-no. Harry just said too many things at the wrong time. Sometimes that's what it comes down to. It's easy to say that Cho really wasn't a good match for Harry but Harry simply didn't do or say the right things at the appropriate times and Cho was probably looking for a mature guy who can comfort her and Harry simply isn't mature enough or experienced enough to deal with her.

I don't blame her for backing up her friend. The sneak jinx was pretty nasty. And not many minded Ginny "playing the field", why call Cho a manipulator? Basically, Cho is an attractive girl and she and Harry simply aren't meant together.

Sir Tornado - Jul 30, 2004 2:15 am (#16 of 391)

Tornado, there used to be a Cho thread. It stalled out and ended up being archived here: Lenka "Cho Chang" 5/24/04 3:34am -- Giant Squid

I know about that. In fact, most of the summary for this thread is copied from the summary from that one.

Those who think Cho less than friendly should put themselves in her place and situations and see how you react.

ex-FAHgeek - Jul 30, 2004 4:31 am (#17 of 391)

---quote--- As for defending Marietta, I wanted to cheer out loud for her when I read that. Do I think Marietta did the right thing? Of course not! But this shows how very loyal Cho is. Which is sort of ironic after Ron blamed her for being unloyal for Quidditch. But when her best friend did something wrong, she didn't ditch her. ---end quote---

While I wouldn't say I was ready to cheer out loud, I was definitely impressed by Cho in this scene. Her willingness to forgive was truly exemplary. I hope she and Harry make amends in the next book - not restore the romance, mind you, but come to terms.

As for whether or not dating Harry was a good idea, I think it was quite possibly the best thing that could have happened to both of them in terms of dealing with Cedric's death. Cho certainly got the "better" end of the deal with that shoulder on which to cry, but it was incredibly important for Harry to see, especially after the Ministry scandal, the one of the people who cared most for Cedric didn't blame him. Even if he hadn't had a crush on her, his relief that she didn't hate him or think that he'd done it would probably have been just as pronounced.

Sir Tornado - Jul 30, 2004 5:20 am (#18 of 391)

I think she never liked Harry more than a friend. She dated him just to know what happened to Cedric. She wanted to know if Cedric mentioned her before he died. I mean, that proves she really loved him. I wonder how many people know about the Harry/Cho kiss.

Loopy Lupin - Jul 30, 2004 5:42 am (#19 of 391)

Sounds like a good topic of discussion elsewhere. I think it simply demonstrates the eternal-inconsistancy of Fudge's position. -Prefect Marcus

I put the question on the "Things which struck you as 'odd'" thread. Perhaps there is more fertile ground elsewhere, but it was the first to come to mind since the point was striking me as "odd."

Then when Cedric died, she started concentrating on Harry. Perfectly natural. However, it was doomed from the start. She and Harry really were just friends more than anything else. They tried to be a couple, but it just wasn't there. -Prefect Marcus

I agree that Cho liked Harry and Cedric both, but I don't agree with the "doomed from the start" part. If Harry had had the gumption to ask her to the ball first, things might have turned out different between them. At any rate, by the time they did start "seeing" one another Cedric's death was too much of an obstacle to overcome.

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 30, 2004 7:09 am (#20 of 391)

I still feel that Cho was never legitimate about liking Harry, and was probably one of those people who's going out with someone different every month.

It's also not like she has any assets besides attractiveness - she's fairly poor at Quidditch, at best decent at DADA. In other words, she's the classic "dumb cheerleader" type.

Catherine - Jul 30, 2004 8:19 am (#21 of 391)

I still feel that Cho was never legitimate about liking Harry, and was probably one of those people who's going out with someone different every month.

It's also not like she has any assets besides attractiveness - she's fairly poor at Quidditch, at best decent at DADA. In other words, she's the classic "dumb cheerleader" type. --Luke Lockhart

I am not an apologist for Cho, but I respectfully disagree with almost everything you said above.

Cho was kind to Harry at a time in GoF when people were picking on him before the first task. She seemed sorry, and seemed embarrassed when Harry asked her to the Yule Ball, and she was unable to accept.

She is never seen dating anyone besides Harry and Cedric until the end of OoP when we hear that she is seeing Michael Corner. She mourned Cedric for a least a year. I don't see that as a serial dating type.

I think that Cho has proven herself a loyal friend, and I call that an asset. She is not poor at Quidditch; Oliver Wood says in PoA that she is pretty good. She was flying poorly in OoP because of her sadness over Cedric's death. I would also say that many fully qualified wizards have trouble with producing a Patronus, and Cho can produce one, so I'd say she is better than "decent" at DADA.

I really don't see the evidence in the novels for your characterization of Cho.

Off Topic Response to Luke Lockhart: I was never a cheerleader, but I got to know some pretty well when I was a teacher. Most of them got excellent grades and they were incredible athletes with endurance and tumbling skills that had me in awe. I think most cheerleaders would take offense at your cheerleader description

MrsGump - Jul 30, 2004 8:24 am (#22 of 391)

Ohhhh, Luke E.A. Lockhart is looking to stir up some of those cheerleader-types on here.

To be fair to Cho, I don't think we've seen enough of her to really decide much about her. Face it, we see her through Harry, who definitely is only looking skin-deep.

How much does he really know about Cho? Their date fizzled out as soon as they had talked out Quidditch, because that was the only thing they have to talk about. Sure, Cho tried to use her looks and charms during the Quidditch matches (which, I think, is why people see her as shallow and manipulative) but Harry really isn't much better when it comes to his attraction.

Cho was at least going out with Cedric from Christmas to June, and only Harry in OotP, so we can't say she goes out with someone different every month. I would agree that part of her attraction to Harry was having someone who she thought would want to talk about Cedric's death. Cho was wrong.

Harry didn't look for a matching personality (he couldn't even talk to her, let alone find out what kind of person Cho is). It was physical attraction, puppy love. Now that he's been there, done that, I think Cho will be in the back ground and Harry will move to pick a real 'ship.

Eponine - Jul 30, 2004 8:46 am (#23 of 391)

Hey! I was a cheerleader for 13 years! That's not a debate to be gotten in here though. I have had it enough times over the years.

I felt sorry for Cho. She was only 15 when she lost her boyfriend in a horrible way. It's always hard to deal with death, no matter what age you are or how close you were to the person. She wanted to know what happened to him. I think that's normal. Of course, when you are on a date with another boy, is not exactly the best time to be bringing up that subject.

I always felt that Harry's "relationship" with Cho was doomed from the start. He didn't know her at all; he just thought she was pretty. Once they started talking, they found out they could barely carry on a conversation save for Quidditch and Umbridge bashing. We don't really know how much they had in common, but I tend to think it wasn't that much.

The Wandless Wizard - Jul 30, 2004 9:17 am (#24 of 391)
Edited by Jul 30, 2004 10:18 am

Loopy Lupin wrote: If Harry had had the gumption to ask her to the ball first, things might have turned out different between them.

I disagree. I don't think things would have ended in exactly the same way, but they would have ended quickly either way. They are just in different places in terms of relationship experience. Cho went from dating an older guy with more dating experience to dating Harry who has no idea about dating girls. Not only was Cho a year older, but Harry had a very stunted development living in Privet Drive. Cho was his first crush. That happens normally from 10-12 and it happened for Harry at 15. So experience-wise, it would be like a 16 year old girl dating a 12 year old boy. I can't see that working out. The Cedric complication only made the eventually problems that much more dramatic.

As for Harry liking Cho only because she is pretty, I disagree. Her being pretty had something to do with it, but not all. At that age (heck, at any age), nothing will spark a crush more quickly for a guy than seeing a cute girl engaged in his favorite hobby. When I was 17, I fell hard for a girl playing basketball. She was a coach at a girl's league I was scorekeeping to earn some extra cash. I saw he shooting around before the game and was definitely interested. After her team was done playing and she was waiting for her friend to coach the next game, she sat and talked to me. We talked about almost nothing but basketball, and I was hooked. It didn't work, but at that age, you think that one thing in common, if you both like it enough, will make a perfect relationship. So Harry seeing Cho playing Quidditch was a large part of his infatuation. The Patils are described as "the prettiest girls in {Harry's} year" and Harry could care less that he had a date with one of them. But Cho was pretty and played Quidditch. Hence, the crush.

Loopy Lupin - Jul 30, 2004 10:26 am (#25 of 391)

That happens normally from 10-12 and it happened for Harry at 15.-- The Wandless Wizard--

The crush goes back to POA. At least, that's when he first noticed her. He definitely had a full blown crush by GoF. I don't know of any consensus as to when a first crush "normally" happens, but 13-14 doesn't sound out of the ordinary to me. For that matter, 15 wouldn't qualify as a "stunted" development IMHO.

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The Wandless Wizard - Jul 30, 2004 10:57 am (#26 of 391)

The "Stunted" comment was not just in regards to when his first crush happened. Living with the Dursley's and having Dudley torment him in school, meant that he did not have any normal social interactions until he was 11. So his social skills were stunted. When he first arrived at Hogwarts, he had to get used to having friends (and enemies) before he could move onto girls as more than just friends. All these things most kids would learn over a span of years and Harry had to learn it all quickly.

His relationship with Cho reminded me of what my friends and I went through at a much younger age (10-12 hence the comment). It consisted of awkward kisses snuck at school, holding hands in the hall, but no real dates where you had to have a conversation. When it progressed to something more akin to what I went through at 15 (parents drop you off somewhere for a "date"), Harry didn't know what to do and things were uncomfortable even before Cedric was brought up. Granted things are probably a lot different now as I haven't been 15 for 12 years, but it has been at least that long since JKR was that age as well. My point was basically that it was Harry's first crush, and most people do not go on to marry their first crush. You mess things up and learn from it. So whether Cho dated Cedric first or not, Harry's inexperience would have led to a fatal mistake (telling Cho he was going to see Hermione on their date) eventually.

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Jul 30, 2004 2:29 pm (#27 of 391)

OK, by my cheerleader comment, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I know cheerleaders in real life myself. If I reference a stereotype, I'm referencing a storytelling stereotype, in the context of the story. JKR uses such stereotypes. Yes, I know most cheerleaders are very intelligent.

Gemini Wolfie - Jul 30, 2004 6:21 pm (#28 of 391)
Edited by S.E. Jones Sep 8, 2004 8:14 pm

Honestly, Harry does come with a heavy package. Especially in his fifth year, you got to admit that he was temperamental and most of the time, felt that nobody's problems were problems compared to his. Ron and Hermione took his attitude cause they understood what he went through and were his best friends. Cho wasn't even his girlfriend yet. She didn't need that from Harry. (You can make the same point about Harry not needing that from Cho). But Cho is a girl. She has the right to get jealous. She has the right to be moody. She has the right to cry. I think the fact is that Harry simply doesn't like girlish girls. After all, Cho was suppose to be the a strong athletic girl like other Quidditch girls we know. And we know that giggling girls are Harry's worst nightmare.

In any case, Cho deserves all the pampering she desires and if Harry can't give it to her it's his lost! Very Happy

->Edited for language. Be more careful how you phrase things please.<- SE Jones

Chemyst - Jul 31, 2004 3:28 am (#29 of 391)

Cho was at least going out with Cedric from Christmas to June, and only Harry in OotP, so we can't say she goes out with someone different every month. - Mrs Gump 'Funny how you list that as a plus. I think she'd have been a lot better off emotionally if she'd had more guys-as-friends and hadn't been so focused on pairing up at that age.

MrsGump - Jul 31, 2004 5:52 am (#30 of 391)

I don't know if long-term vs. short-term relationships at 15 is a plus or minus. I really wasn't trying to list it one. Someone had posted before me that Cho jumped from one guy to the other and I was just pointing out we have no canon to support that statement.

I would completely agree that Cho (or any of them) would be better off not trying so hard for the romance-type of opposite sex relationship and focus on friendship. They would learn to judge and choose people for who they are instead of looks or Quidditch. They would also have a better support system when they are looking for someone to talk to when bad things do happen.

RuthJ - Jul 31, 2004 11:49 pm (#31 of 391)

...Cho (or any of them) would be better off not trying so hard for the romance-type of opposite sex relationship and focus on friendship. --MrsGump

This is great advice for any teenager; friendship has always been one of JKR's strongest themes, and it is, in part, due to Harry's friendships--both with Ron and Hermione and also with Sirius, Lupin, etc.--that he has matured and found some level of contentness.

However, speaking as someone who was a teenager not too long ago, romance--and the fears, confusion and insecurities that accompany romance--are not only normal at that age, but usually unavoidable, even necessary to the growing-up process. Harry's relationship with Cho seems to epitomize these feelings. Poor Cho, though, has had to deal not only with this typical teenage angst, but also with the death of Cedric. If only she and Harry could have communicated better (or if Hermione had given him her advice before he saw Cho), their relationship, or at least friendship, may have worked.

On another note, I agree that Cho's loyalty to Marietta was admirable, but I wonder if she would have been so angry had it not been Hermione (who, in Cho's eyes, is her competition for Harry's affections) who'd bewitched the DA parchment.

Sir Tornado - Aug 1, 2004 12:01 am (#32 of 391)

I agree with you Ruth. Now why didn't Hermione give Harry her advice earlier? Some hidden motives? But then, that's for Hermione's thread.

total hatred - Aug 1, 2004 1:28 am (#33 of 391)

I agree with you Tornado. Hermione must have an hidden agenda. I find it strange why Cho always chooses her next boyfriend is somewhat related to her ex. Harry is related to Cedric being rivals in The Triwizards. Her new boyfriend is related to Harry for being linked to a girls who used to fancy Harry.

I agree find it strange why Hermione is giving advice to Harry about Cho's behavior

Gemini Wolfie - Aug 1, 2004 3:44 am (#34 of 391)

Hermione has a hidden agenda? But she seems so interested and excited at Harry's progress with Cho. Perhaps Hermione just thinks both Harry and Ron need to stumble a bit before they realize how to treat a girl properly!

Anyways about Cho and friendship. I don't think it's necessary at all for one to be friends first and then date. Your boyfriend or girlfriend tends to become your best friend. Works differently for different people of course. What I'm noticing is that the books, girls that are just, well, girls don't get much of a chance to take on a more prominent role, at least not in Harry's life. When we first saw Cho, there was some mystery to her (sucks guys in all the time Razz

). We think cool athletic girl. By the end OoP we see that Cho is a normal girl after all. Her giggling, crying, and girlish behaviour made her not much different from someone like Parvati. Harry's world is just too screwed up for a normal girl to be in.

TomProffitt - Aug 1, 2004 3:57 am (#35 of 391)

Hidden motives? Tornado?

I don't think so. Hermione is always over estimating the intelligence of her peers, particularly Ron and Harry. I imagine she was surprised that Harry didn't think of all the Cho advice she gave him on his own.

Magika - Aug 1, 2004 3:57 pm (#36 of 391)

Well, the word that best describes Cho for my part is... annoying. She's not independent. She appears weak (that's at least how I see her). Sure she's sad and all that because of Cedric dying, of course she is confused. But start weeping during your first kiss, and act like she did on the first date? I wouldn't even think about it! Of course she scared him away!

As for the loyalty-thing with Marietta, I think loyalty really depends on the case. Marietta did a stupid, stupid thing. She sold them out, I'm amazed it didn't have more consequences for the rest of the DA's. What if her betrayal had led to anyone dying? I don't think people like Marietta deserve loyalty. Next time she'll sell them to Voldemort.

Harry deserves someone better than Cho... Next time maybe he'll have enough brains to see more than a girl's beauty...

-Si-

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 1, 2004 6:24 pm (#37 of 391)

I concur with Magika... Cho was an utter idiot, Marietta was an utter ultra-conformist coward, and Harry was right to dump Cho. I'm sorry, but I can't see Cho as anything but a manipulator.

The Wandless Wizard - Aug 1, 2004 7:13 pm (#38 of 391)

Well, I think in a typical children's book, Cho would be portrayed as just a pretty girl who is shallow and wrong for Harry. However, I do not think she is portrayed that way in this book and it is what makes the books so great. She is a complex individual with things she is dealing with on her own. And neither she nor Harry does anything completely wrong, or completely right. Their relationship just does not work out and that sometimes is life.

Nobody is perfect and people make mistakes. Marietta made a huge mistake and was wrong. That does not mean Cho was wrong to forgive her. Cho played a part in her mistake. Cho forced Marietta to join the DA. Marietta was under enormous pressure from home to do "the right thing". She did not know what the right thing was. She did not have the same Harry's eye view of Umbridge that we have. Umbridge was a teacher and Ministry official. You should be able to assume she had the student's best interests at heart. We knew better having seen her at Harry's hearing and at his detentions. Marietta was not privy to that information. She was placed in a difficult situation. Her choice, in her eyes, was not between black and white, good or evil, but instead between different shades of grey where someone was going could get hurt regardless. Cho realized this even though she too was probably angry at Marietta and chose to forgive her. I think that was brave, intelligent and definitely non-conformist.

Further, if Marietta were a conformist, wouldn't she conform with DA and not tell Umbridge? The DA was her peer group, so they put the most conformist pressure on her. I think South Park said it best when Stan wanted to hang out with the Goth kids. He asked him how to become a non-conformist like them. To paraphrase they said, "If you want to be a non-conformist like us, you have to wear what we wear, talk like we talk, and listen to all the same music we listen to." Are you angry that Marietta was a conformist or are you angry that she conformed with the "wrong" group?

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 1, 2004 7:17 pm (#39 of 391)

I come from a town full of conformists. A town full of shallow people. A town where conformist teen culture is supported by the authorities. So I guess I just see a student who goes along with the authorities like that as a conformist. If she'd turned the DA in because she thought, "That Harry Potter is a lunatic who probably killed Cedric Diggory to fake Voldemort's return," I'd be fine with her, and see her as a principled, upstanding nonconformist. But because she turned Harry in from pressure from her mother - just as conformist as if it were peer pressure - she's a conformist in my view.

RuthJ - Aug 1, 2004 8:21 pm (#40 of 391)

Excellent points, Wandless Wizard and Luke. When Marietta sold her DA members out, she changed her loyalty and her "conformist group," so to speak. It seems to me that Marietta acted in order to join the larger, winning majority--the MoM, Umbridge, the Daily Profit. Somewhat like the Vichy French character Louis in Casablanca. But it's in the nature of people, even those who act against the majority, to conform to groups; schools are the perfect example. Hogwarts further encourages conformity by dividing its students into houses. This is surely one of the reasons Cho is so angry at Harry when Marietta's disloyalty is discovered; their friendship has probably grown since their first year in Ravenclaw together. (Although I still think Cho was jealous/bitter that Harry stood up for Hermione's role in it.)

Gemini Wolfie - Aug 1, 2004 11:25 pm (#41 of 391)

Okay this is a Cho thread but while we're at it, I don't remember reading about Marietta not wanting to leave the DA for a second. We are constantly given the impression that Marietta is only here because Cho forced her to (she needed a friend there of course). So you can say that Marietta finally got the courage to tell Umbridge about the DA.

In you were Cho, and you knew perfectly well that your friend was really uncomfortable being in the DA and attending the meetings but accompanied you only because you forced her to, can you really blame your friend? Ya she could have gotten you expelled too, but it's sort of your fault. So I agree with what Wandless Wizard said.

Sir Tornado - Aug 2, 2004 2:06 am (#42 of 391)

It seems to me that Marietta acted in order to join the larger, winning majority--the MoM, Umbridge, the Daily Profit. -- RuthJ.

Daily Profit? Ruth that's the best typing mistake I've seen. Great name for the "Daily Prophet"

Well, the word that best describes Cho for my part is... annoying. She's not independent. She appears weak (that's at least how I see her). -- Magika.

Wouldn't you be off-color and weak if your Boyfriend was killed?

TomProffitt - Aug 2, 2004 4:05 am (#43 of 391)

Cho Chang is as deeply developed as any of Jo's characters. To paraphrase Sirius, the world is not divided into evil wizards and DA members.

Cho (and Marietta) is a good person who doesn't have the depth of knowledge and experience that HRH have regarding He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named.

If there is any fault or blame to go around (which I don't think there is), it doesn't lie with Cho and Marietta, it lies with Hermione, Ron, and Ginny, for not being more selective about who was invited to the Hog's Head.

Magika - Aug 2, 2004 6:52 am (#44 of 391)

Yes, Tornado, I probably would, but I had my opinion about Cho before Cedric Diggory died, too. It's a great difference between being off-colour and being unindependent. I think she's shallow and not at all right for Harry...

But that's not for me to decide, is it? Very Happy

This might have something to do with me being a Luna/Harry-shipper... hee hee.

EDIT: Luke, that's the word... Manipulator!

-Si-

RuthJ - Aug 2, 2004 3:37 pm (#45 of 391)

Daily Profit/Daily Prophet

Oops! I've become too dependent on spell-check. But actually, "profit" really does describe that newspaper; we know they aren't too concerned with reporting the facts, and as Rita Skeeter tells Hermione, their sole focus is making money.

Cho (and Marietta) is a good person who doesn't have the depth of knowledge and experience that HRH have regarding He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. -TomProffitt

I completely agree. Cho also doesn't have an outlet for her feelings. Harry can confide in R/H and Sirius, who have some direct knowledge of his problems; Cho, as far as I know, doesn't have anyone except Harry who was so affected by Cedric's death, or who believes the truth about his death for that matter. Although I don't think lack of experience/knowledge should excuse anyone's behavior. Percy hasn't had HRH's experiences with Voldemort, and his actions have been biased, unwarranted and self-serving.

Hermione Weasley - Aug 2, 2004 7:15 pm (#46 of 391)

Maybe this was answered earlier but what year is Cho? I always thought she was a year older than Harry. Don't know why...quote somewhere maybe???

Gemini Wolfie - Aug 2, 2004 7:26 pm (#47 of 391)

Yes, Tornado, I probably would, but I had my opinion about Cho before Cedric Diggory died, too. It's a great difference between being off-colour and being unindependent. I think she's shallow and not at all right for Harry...

How is Cho not independent? And what's so bad about that? How is Cho shallow? Cho has been nothing but nice to Harry from the time he was the boy who lived to some crazy show-off. Cedric was not about looks and Harry, apparently wasn't even good looking not to mention being a laughing stock to most of the wizarding community.

Forget about losing a boyfriend. Losing a family member or close friend is not something that you just get over. Different people are affected in different ways and they react in different ways. Is Harry independent? Count how many times Harry has seemingly lost his mind or on the brink of doing so when he felt alone in this world. Think of how many times he lost his temper when he felt nobody could possibly understood what he was going through? Having someone to depend on is a gift and something to be treasured. There's no shame in that. The feeling of not being alone is what gave Harry strength countless of times. It's a theme that has been repeated throughout the books.

I agree that Cho isn't right for Harry because Cho has experienced far less trauma in her life than Harry. There's a reason Cho was with Cedric and not Harry. They were a really good pair and a better fit. There's a reason why Neville was beside Harry and not Dean (as we know Dean's story never materialized). You can't blame Cho for having lived a happier life. They say that what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. But how many would rather be weak and happy instead? I have only sympathy for Cho. It's a shame he and Harry didn't work out that's all. No one is at fault.

RuthJ - Aug 2, 2004 7:51 pm (#48 of 391)

what year is Cho? She's a year older than Harry. In chapter 13 of PoA, Wood tells Harry that the Ravenclaw Seeker is Cho and that she is a fourth year. There are other references to her being one year ahead of HRH, can't think of specifics though. But then in OP, when she and Harry are talking about that Quidditch game in Hogsmeade, she says something like "Remember in our third year..." That's just a mistake, as far as I can tell.

Sir Tornado - Aug 2, 2004 8:17 pm (#49 of 391)

There is also mention of Cho being an year older than Harry in GoF in chapter "The Unexpected task".

Gemini Wolfie - Aug 2, 2004 9:57 pm (#50 of 391)

Cho is definitely a year older. In my version it says "Remember the first time we played against each other, in the third year" unless I got the wrong quote that is. Harry's third year could be both Harry and Cho's third Quidditch year.

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Paulus Maximus - Aug 2, 2004 10:30 pm (#51 of 391)

It's weird... Cho could have said "two years ago"...

Sir Tornado - Aug 2, 2004 10:46 pm (#52 of 391)

She could've also said "the year before last". But she didn't. Why? Because JKR wanted her to!

Magika - Aug 3, 2004 12:32 am (#53 of 391)

Gemini Wolfie... There's nothing bad with it, I just don't think she would fit Harry. Harry is independent, you can be independent even though you have lots of people around you. Harry takes his own decisions and has fought Voldemort many times.

I don't think losing a family member has anything to do with being independent or not. of course you're sad and grieving after you've lost a friend/family member, but I don't think that is the main reason why I think Cho is unindependent.

You're right, Gemini, Cho hasn't experienced the things Harry has. That makes her a person he can't relate that much to. She's lost her boyfriend, but Harry is unwilling to speak about that.

I believe the relationship is over, and we will hear much less about Cho. I can't say I'm sad about it.

-Si-

Sir Tornado - Aug 3, 2004 1:18 am (#54 of 391)

Yeah Magika. I can see that. You seem to hate the Girl. Since when? GoF? OotP?

Magika - Aug 3, 2004 2:39 am (#55 of 391)

Well, I don't hate her. I dislike her, yes, but I don't hate her. I'm just annoyed with her crying all the time and making Harry uncomfortable. But 'hate' is a waaay to strong word. I think that would mean I've disliked her since OotP, but I wasn't very fond of her in GoF either...

I don't know. I don't even hate Malfoy.

But to ask the opposite question: why do people like her? Smile

Sir Tornado - Aug 3, 2004 3:04 am (#56 of 391)

Yeah, well, Prefect Marcus - did you hear that? Magika wants to know why you (and the others) like Cho. So do I; actually.

Magika - Aug 3, 2004 3:29 am (#57 of 391)

Yeah, come on and tell, I really wanna know.

Gemini Wolfie - Aug 3, 2004 3:36 am (#58 of 391)

Magika, unindependent isn't a word, every time you use it you tempt me into using it. Very Happy

Anyways, JKR did say the relationship is over so I'm definitely going to take her word for it. I think JKR made Cho worthy of being Harry's first crush. There's a lot to like about Cho. She's beautiful, smart, athletic (she is a capable Seeker). She's also mature, loyal, understanding (just cause she gets jealous doesn't mean she isn't understanding), she thinks for herself, and she's emotional. The fact that she cried so much didn't bother me one bit. It shows weakness and emotion. Cho needed a guy that could take care of her and Harry couldn't. A lot of guys can't stand a girl crying, but a lot of guys tend to like girls who are weak. Cho was vulnerable in the last book and Harry wasn't mature or man enough to stick by her.

MrsGump - Aug 3, 2004 5:37 am (#59 of 391)

I don't like or dislike Cho. She's just there. But, Gemini, I will have to disagree with mature and understanding. (I'll agree with all the other nice things you said about her).

We just haven't seen any proof of mature or understanding. I guess I don't find using your looks to flirt your way through a Quidditch match as mature. Cho was trying to use her looks to throw Harry off his game. I know, she's had a couple of years since then. I just don't think we've 'seen' mature behavior.

I also think the only reason she is interested in Harry is to have someone to talk to about Cedric. A mature approach would've been to ask Harry if he would talk to her, instead of trying to date him.

And if she was understanding, she might have figured out that talking about the death of Cedric, which half to students in the school thought was 'crazy Harry's fault', might not be a comfortable conversation for him? She might have noticed that Harry was uncomfortable every time she started crying and tried to find someone for help and support?

The One - Aug 3, 2004 7:53 am (#60 of 391)

Cho was trying to use her looks to throw Harry off his game.

Did she? She smiled at him once at the beginning of the match, grinned once after she had managed to block Harry, and Oliver roared at Harry for not knocking her of her broom. Does that mean that she exploited her looks in the game? I just thought she enjoyed playing against the famous Harry Potter, one of the best seeker talents for a long time. I see nothing in the description of the match that suggests that she is not a serious player despite being pretty. It is possible do be both you know.

She did notice his him at the match, and from then on we seem to see a few cases of "long distance flirting" between them.

What do we know about Cho previous to Cedric's death?

She is pretty, that is not a bad thing. (It is only a bad thing if your looks are the only thing you have to show for you.)

She is sporting. That is a good thing.

She has many friends. That does not make her shallow. (After GoF most of them disappear, so their friendship seems to have been shallow, but is there any signs in the books earlier that this will happen?)

She is quite nice the few times we see her.

She accepts an invitation from Cedric. Does getting invited by, and accept an invitation from one of the most attractive boys at school make a girl shallow?

I noticed that some people disliked Cho before OotP and I cannot understand why. I saw nothing wrong with her at all. I did not love her, because I did not know her, but why on earth should anyone dislike her?

After OotP, things are different. She did a lot of stupid thing in OotP, but come on, her boy friend was killed! Of course, compared to what Harry is going through that is a detail, but most teenagers would be hit hard by it.

Magika - Aug 3, 2004 3:05 pm (#61 of 391)

*Running to get dictionary* I actually never knew "unindependent" wasn't a word... Well, I'm learning new things every day! Very Happy

Hermione Weasley - Aug 3, 2004 7:08 pm (#62 of 391)

The opposite of independent is dependent ;D

By the way, I finished reading your info and I would LOVE to study in Britain as well!

Magika - Aug 3, 2004 11:34 pm (#63 of 391)

Hermione, where are you from? I have one year left in high school, then I'm leaving this country...

Thanks for the info about independent/dependent, I promise I will never make the mistake again Razz

Gemini Wolfie - Aug 4, 2004 3:52 am (#64 of 391)

MrsGump I agree that it's quite debatable whether Cho is mature and understanding. She just seems to give off an air of maturity in the book: the way she talks and presents herself. She talks seriously and maturely to Harry every time she sees him. She stops giggling when Harry, looking serious, asks to have a word with her. I see her as understanding because outside of her jealousy, she had never believed in any of the nasty stories about Harry. She also seemed to have understood how Harry was feeling being selected to participate in the Triwizard. And we should also trust Cedric's taste.

I think the fact that Hermione was completely understanding and sympathetic to Cho tells us a lot about how JKR wanted us to view Cho. She was a victim. I wonder if we'll see Cho come back the next school year and apologize to Harry for the way she acted and how she simply needed time to recover from Cedric's death. That will be the prove we need that Cho is indeed a very sweet girl.

Good Evans - Aug 4, 2004 11:31 am (#65 of 391)

I think Cho and harry will just be friends - they need to get over the awkwardness but they will put their romance behind them and can just say "hello" and chat about Quidditch - there is no need for animosity and as a character she has now served her purpose as Harry's first love. ....aahhh I don’t see her figuring much in the remaining books but just being around

drippan - Aug 4, 2004 1:48 pm (#66 of 391)

I think Cho is just out "man-hunting". She always got to have a boyfriend.

DripPan

TomProffitt - Aug 4, 2004 1:52 pm (#67 of 391)

I think Cho is just out "man-hunting". She always got to have a boyfriend. -- DripPan

I had a girlfriend like that in High School. She was actually quite a good person, better than I was at that age. The boyfriend thing was just who she was, perhaps part of her self-image.

I see Cho in much the same way. It helps her to feel good about herself if she has a boyfriend, but that doesn't mean she is going to radically change who she is for that boyfriend.

edit; More of she is going to try to change the boyfriend, I think.

Magika - Aug 4, 2004 3:35 pm (#68 of 391)

I think she's afraid of being alone.

Gemini Wolfie - Aug 4, 2004 6:25 pm (#69 of 391)

I do not think she's man-hunting nor do I think she is afraid of being alone. Although Cedric's death may have done a number on her this past year which means all the bad stuff we've seen from her and are saying about her is out of character so I wouldn't characterize her as such. And Harry isn't afraid of being alone too. And as far as we know Ginny already has two boyfriends at an age when Cho had none. Is she a man-hunter as well?

Hermione Weasley - Aug 4, 2004 8:08 pm (#70 of 391)

I don't know if I like Cho yet. I'm not a typical girl so I don't understand a lot of the things they do. I understand that she is a victim, lost her boyfriend, grieving etc. etc. etc. but I think that a lot of what she does is for the wrong reasons i.e. ignoring Harry just because he was being a bit stupid. (I guess I need Hermione's "Translating Mad Things Girls Do So Boys Can Understand Them" as well) I'm with Harry, isn't it just better to ask directly rather than put together ploys to find out real reasons? Of course, as always correct me if I'm wrong. Very Happy

P.S. Magika, I'm from Mississippi, a southern state in the United States. Why?

Sir Tornado - Aug 4, 2004 8:14 pm (#71 of 391)

Yes, Ginny seems to be so.

Hermione Weasley - Aug 4, 2004 8:20 pm (#72 of 391)

I know this is off thread, but Ginny seems to be "non-girly" to me because the only person she has a female role model for her was her mother, who let's face it, isn't exactly girly either.

Sir Tornado - Aug 4, 2004 8:54 pm (#73 of 391)

She has Hermione as her model too. But she's not girly either.

Alianora - Aug 5, 2004 5:21 am (#74 of 391)

Come on, she's not a "man-hunter"! She's a teenage girl who would only have had one boyfriend if he hadn't died! Harry is a bad boyfriend, and I think sticking up for her friend shows strength of character.

Reposted from Dumbledore's Army thread:

When Harry is talking about Marietta betraying the DA to Cho in chapter 28, he says "Ron's dad works for the Ministry too!" Which made me start thinking. It was true that Mr. Weasley did, but in reality he was in the Order and was against Fudge. Thus, Ron was following his parent's wishes, at least somewhat (even though Mrs. Weasley didn't want him in the club, they wouldn't have wanted him to tell.) So I started thinking of all the characters and which ones supported or didn't support Harry because of their parents vs. because of their own decision.

Seamus Finnigan - Didn't support Harry for most of the book because his mother believed the Daily Prophet.

Ernie Macmillan - Supported Harry because his family did.

Luna Lovegood - Supported Harry, her father did as well.

Dean Thomas - Wasn't pressured by his family because he's Muggle-born (half blood?), supported Harry.

Neville Longbottom - Supported Harry because his grandmother did.

Ron Weasley - Supported Harry because they were friends, his parents were in the order.

Cho Chang - Supported Harry even though her parents were pro-Umbridge.

Lavender Brown - At the beginning doesn't believe Harry, though she joins the DA: it's not clear what her parents think, but I think she may be Muggle-born.

Marietta Edgecombe - Joined the DA only because Cho did-turned them in-Parents are very pro-Umbridge.

Percy Weasley - the only one who was against Harry despite his parents' views.

OK, I'm missing quite a few. Also, they may not be pro-Umbridge, just scared of her, but it's about the same in the list. So the only character whose parents were against Harry and Dumbledore but who supported Harry is- Cho Chang! She was the only one before the DA anyway- its hard to be sure which of the rest of the members believed him entirely. Cho could have hated him-it did nothing for her social status to like him or go out with him. I think she deserves credit for this.

I think it takes an extraordinary character to go against their parents’ wishes (not to mention the Ministry's), to do what they believe is right.

Padfoot - Aug 5, 2004 10:19 am (#75 of 391)

Cho Chang- Supported Harry even though her parents were pro-Umbridge. -Alianora

For some reason I do not remember Cho's parents for or against Umbridge. Do you have a book quote that says they supported her? I am probably being dense here, I just don't remember this.

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RuthJ - Aug 5, 2004 10:23 am (#76 of 391)

Nice synopsis, Alianora. I also disagree with the claims that Cho is a man-hunter, dependent, weak, desperate for a boyfriend, etc, etc. Her and Harry's relationship didn't work out, they both moved on, end of story (by the way, I don't think she liked Harry simply because he's famous; for one, she's described as popular in GoF, and Michael Corner has no fame or popularity that we're aware of).

And remember, Cho is sixteen. There's no one more fickle, flighty, or emotionally unstable than a teenager. Add the murder and mayhem that Voldemort and the DEs have created, and it's a wonder these characters--Harry especially--aren't in St. Mungo's for insanity.

I think it takes an extraordinary character to go against their parent's wishes (not to mention the ministry's) --Alianora

So true. And often, due to peer pressure, it's even harder to go against the beliefs of friends. We know that Cho was popular, at least in GoF, and Marietta was the only friend that came with her to the DA meetings. This leads me to think that either... 1) she's lost her large group of friends, 2) they weren't close enough that Cho could ask them to go with her to the meetings, or 3) she's taken a step of independence and done something her friends don't approve of.

If #3 is correct, Cho has a much more forceful personality that Harry just hasn't seen. However, I don't think Cho is an important enough character (at least by the end of OP) that we'll ever learn her motivations and personal consequences for joining DA.

Edit: I also don't remember her family's attitudes. But whatever their opinions, it's likely many DA members kept their activities a secret from their parents. (e.g. Dean Thomas in OP ch 11: what his parents don't know can't hurt him.)

Alianora - Aug 5, 2004 10:54 am (#77 of 391)

The quote I was referring to would be in ch. 18 (Dumbledore's Army):

"'Don't mind her," Cho muttered. "She doesn't really want to be here but I made her come with me. Her parents have forbidden her to do anything that might upset Umbridge, you see-her mum works for the Ministry." "What about your parents?" asked Harry. "Well, they've forbidden me to get on the wrong side of Umbridge too," said Cho, drawing herself up proudly. "But if they think I'm not going to fight You-Know-Who after what happened to Cedric-"

Ok, it may not be entirely clear, but she is going against her parents' wishes to do this, and for a just reason, not just to be rebellious.

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 5, 2004 11:25 am (#78 of 391)

The fact is, most teenagers don't care at all what their parents think. They go along with the peer group at all costs. Cho has done nothing admirable anywhere in the series.

Padfoot - Aug 5, 2004 11:41 am (#79 of 391)

Thanks for the quote Alianora. It almost sounds as if her parents did not want her to get in trouble as they might have heard some bad things about Umbridge. Of course I could be reading something more into this than is actually there.

Alianora - Aug 5, 2004 1:25 pm (#80 of 391)

"Cho has done nothing admirable anywhere in the series. "

I beg to differ. She was very nice to Harry, when she could have been horrible. She supported him. She is a nice girl, and I think you might want to reread the fifth book. She was nice until the very end, and the end was from Harry's point of view, in which she was sticking up for her friend.

She doesn't make fun of him when he is covered in Stinksap, or even laugh. She's just as embarrassed as he is.

She is insulted by Ron the next time they meet for no reason, and I think she had perfect right to be a little cold to him. Hermione was right, he was very tactless.

The next time they meet, she is nice to Harry (I detect a pattern!) Note that people who have known Harry for years and are in his house are treating him and talking about him terribly, such as Seamus and Lavender, and most of the rest of the school has outcast him. Cho goes out of her way to be nice to him, as when she stops by his carriage on the Hogwarts Express.

Anyway, this time they meet, Cho sticks up for Harry in order to protect him from Filch, by saying she saw him send Hedwig, though she didn't. Even if you don't consider her always being nice to him "admirable", I think this definitely should count.

After that, she is the most enthusiastic recruited member of the DA, constantly sticks up for Harry at the Hog's Head.

OK, then she cries when they kiss. So what? Hermione explained it very well, I think it's in "The Eye of the Snake." Her boyfriend had died, she was guilty, and stressed, and I know I would cry in that situation. Are you sure you wouldn't? After all, Harry yells a lot in the book. Why should girls not be allowed the same excuse of overactive hormones. I'm sixteen, and I know I cry a lot more than is strictly warranted. She had perfect right.

I'll go through the rest of the book later, but my point is that I really think you should re-think your judgment of her character.

Fluviusi Saepio - Aug 6, 2004 12:14 pm (#81 of 391)

I believe Cho is a sweet girl with basically good intentions.

"The fact is most teenagers don’t care what their parents think." Well, I wouldn’t say that she is sticking up for herself and going against Umbridge merely for the fact of going against her parents or peer pressure. There is at least an understatement of nobility in her actions, it truly is hard to be noble at such an age.

As far as her and Harry are concerned and where the rest of the series is headed, I do believe that her role is basically played out. I can see her popping in and out of HBP and book 7, but I cant see her playing any major role. My opinion is she was set into play to show Harry is starting to have adult emotions, and the fact that JKR had her be the boyfriend of the boy Harry watched pass is a nice little twist in the works (not nice in the great kind of sense, but interesting, lets say that).

And, I don’t believe she was mean towards Harry or wrong for crying as much as she did. Having a boyfriend die at that young of an age is devastating, especially since love is all together new to Cho. She has more than a right to cry whenever she feels like, especially being around Harry who was the only person to witness Cedric's passing. They really need Witch/Wizard therapists on hand at Hogwarts. :-)

drippan - Aug 6, 2004 12:37 pm (#82 of 391)

I have to agree. Cho is a good person and, just like everyone else, she has her problems. She's a very emotional girl and I don't blame her.

She's had an attraction to Harry, and vice versa, since PoA. Harry pussy footed around and Cedric asked her first to the ball. Thinks might have been different for them if Harry would have asked her first.

She is over Harry and has moved on. I don't think she used him at all because of PoA.

I still believe that she needs a boyfriend because she went straight from Cedric, then summer break, to Harry, to Michael Corner.

We don't know if she will still be a part of DA. I'm pretty sure Marietta will be kicked out and Cho might choose to follow her.

DripPan

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 6, 2004 2:50 pm (#83 of 391)

I'm not saying that Cho is a "bad person" for crying so much. I'm saying that she's somewhat of a dishonorable person for the way she would manipulate Harry.

The fact is, Cho had lots of friends, and so far as we know she didn't get all cry-y around them. She chose to pick Harry for her moping, and did stuff like talking about Cedric when they were on a date, et cetera. In other words, she tried to manipulate Harry into being all emotional, and then ditched him when he didn't meet her expectations - although I suspect she would have done that even if he'd conformed to what she wanted.

Leila 2X4B - Aug 6, 2004 3:41 pm (#84 of 391)

I think she cried around Harry, because he was there when her boyfriend was killed. That is very painful. She only had to look at Harry to feel lost, confused, and guilty.

I think that many people here judge these children too harshly. After all, psychologically, teens do not have the mens rea to cope the same way adults do. Their forebrains are not fully formed and that is the part of the brain that controls emotions and rationality. That is why stroke victims often say things that are wholly inappropriate, their forebrain is no longer at optimal functionability.

Give Cho a break; she is just a kid.

Alianora - Aug 6, 2004 3:58 pm (#85 of 391)

I never got the impression that she was trying to manipulate Harry, Hermione explained it very well, she had perfect right to be upset, and even an adult would find it difficult to cope with that situation. She likes Harry, what would she gain from upsetting him?

RuthJ - Aug 6, 2004 4:33 pm (#86 of 391)

Cho had lots of friends, and so far as we know she didn't get all cry-y around them. --Luke E.A. Lockhart

But according to Hermione, Cho does cry all the time; between classes, in the bathrooms, etc. Part of the reason she cries a river every time she's around Harry is that she expects him to understand, because he was there when Cedric died (she tells him this at some point in OP, I think when they're in Hogsmeade together). Unfortunately for Cho, the last thing Harry wants to do is relive and talk about Cedric dying.

She likes Harry, what would she gain from upsetting him? --Alianora Good point. Any upset that Cho causes Harry is unintentional. I don't even think she's always aware of Harry's reactions to her crying, e.g. after their kiss before Christmas.

Solitaire - Aug 6, 2004 5:29 pm (#87 of 391)

As a teacher of high school and junior high students, I've had the opportunity to observe many cases of young love. I don't think Cho can be discounted as just a manipulative manhunter. I think Harry's reaction to her when he first sees her is normal. She is a beautiful, mysterious "older woman." Okay, so she is only a year older. When you are 13, that seems big. And as several posters have pointed out, Harry hasn't exactly had normal friendships and relationships before reaching Hogwarts. In fact, he hasn't even had much of a chance to OBSERVE them.

She probably liked Harry well enough in GoF, although she no doubt saw him as young. Perhaps she would have gone to the Ball with him had he asked first; perhaps she might not have and was just as happy to have Cedric's prior invitation to use as an excuse. We will never know.

In OotP, I think she may have gravitated to Harry for a couple of reasons. It isn't new for a man or woman to gravitate to the best friend of their boyfriend/girlfriend who dies. I realize Harry and Cedric were not close friends, but there was a bond between them because of the tournament ... and Harry WAS with Cedric when he died.

Many times, friends who may initially just get together to support each other in a loss often develop romantic feelings for each other. And sometimes, one TRIES to make it romantic when it is really just about support and causes problems in so doing.

I think Cho needs to talk about her feelings; we women are often accused of wanting to talk about things too much. Harry tends to clam up rather than spill his guts, especially as he has gotten older. In fact, he conceals more, although that could be a defense mechanism after the way he is skewered in the press. Other than that first night, when he gave his account to Dumbledore, Harry really hasn't talked about what happened to anyone. Even Hermione points out that no one really had a chance to understand or deal with it before they were sent home for the summer. All this stuff is bubbling around inside him.

I think, too, that some are forgetting that having feelings for someone new doesn't mean you automatically stop loving an old love--especially in Cho's circumstance. The odds are probable that she and Cedric would still have been a couple, had he not died. She may be trying to move on but not really know how to go about it. Some people never take time to heal from old relationships. They jump into new ones before they finish grieving and then get into trouble. I think Cho will always be a sort of tragic figure because of how she lost Cedric.

I do not see Harry and Cho getting back together at all. When he sees her on the train home, he realizes she is a part of his past that he can't really revisit. In terms of what's coming at him Voldemort-wise, I think he realizes he has his hands full. Remember he says he is a marked man. He isn't even able to discuss that with Ron and Hermione just yet.

Frankly, I don't even see Harry having much time for a relationship. He can barely fit in all the stuff he has to do as it is. If he does become involved with someone, I see it being someone who is equally involved with the coming War, because I can't see him wanting to jeopardize anyone else's life at this point in the War. If he does begin a relationship, perhaps it will be someone he saves, or someone who steps out of an unlikely spot and proves key in saving HIM.

Somehow, when I think of relationships--for our Trio, at least--I wonder ... in wars, priorities change. Staying alive may become more important than having dates for the Hogsmeade weekends.

Of course, I could be totally full of Stoats, too!

Solitaire (sorry this is so long and rambling)

Luke E.A. Lockhart - Aug 6, 2004 6:05 pm (#88 of 391)

Solitaire, I think you've converted me. And RuthJ, you have good points also. I guess Cho may not be so bad - maybe I'm just projecting my own experiences in real life onto her...

Solitaire - Aug 6, 2004 7:04 pm (#89 of 391)

It's okay, Luke. I think it's normal to look at characters and situations through the filters of our own experiences. I tend to do this with Dumbledore and my dad and said as much in a post on one of the other threads. Smile

Solitaire

Gemini Wolfie - Aug 7, 2004 6:01 pm (#90 of 391)

Great posts fellow Cho supporters.

Just to add a few points: many people seem to have forgotten about Cedric's death or at least many didn't believe in Dumbledore's and Harry's version of the events. We know that most Ravenclaws were actually afraid of Harry and tried hard to avoid him in the halls (I'm too lazy to search up the quote). So Cho actually risks ridicule when she purposely tries to get closer to Harry. We can also assume that Cho would be hard fetched to find one of her Ravenclaw friends to talk to about Cedric without the conversation turned to Dumbledore losing his marbles or Harry being an inventive story maker.

I still say that the fact that Hermione shows nothing but compassion and understanding for Cho throughout the 5th book tells us what JKR thinks of her and perhaps how she wants us to view her. Again, I believe that Cho will come back and apologize to Harry for her behaviour and more will be converted.

total hatred - Aug 9, 2004 3:01 pm (#91 of 391)

I agree with Gemini Wolfie. I also agree that Hermione shows compassion and understanding to Cho. Hermione understands Cho so much that she can read thru Cho's strategy and motives on Harry. She in fact warning Harry about Cho's battle plan

Magical Llama - Sep 3, 2004 2:07 am (#92 of 391)

There is one thing I never understood about Cho ... the hiccups. Can anyone elaborate?

ex-FAHgeek - Sep 3, 2004 5:28 am (#93 of 391)

---quote--- There is one thing I never understood about Cho ... the hiccups. ---end quote---

Basically, she's sobbing so hard while attempting not to make it loud and attention-drawing that she's giving herself hiccups.

Chris. - Sep 3, 2004 5:38 am (#94 of 391)

I don't think Cho was a bad person. After all, she had lost her boyfriend not even a year before OP. Like Harry, she was very distressed, Harry more so.

Harry like her for her pretty face, talent on the Quidditch pitch and her popularity. In other words, she was an ideal first crush for Harry. Now, he will see that there's more to people than their looks.

Maddest Dragon - Sep 3, 2004 1:47 pm (#95 of 391)

I agree, Prongs. I think Cho's main purpose for being in the story is to provide Harry with an unattainable first crush. Possibly setting the stage for a more viable relationship for him later on. Though I'm not convinced he'll get very involved with anyone during the Hogwarts years; he has more than enough to deal with as it is. If he does hook up with someone, my money's on Ginny.

And, really, who can blame Cho for being so confused? Look at everything she has to deal with.

Gemini Wolfie - Sep 3, 2004 7:30 pm (#96 of 391)

I'm sort of a sucker for the fate stuff. I know a lot has been said about our very own choices, but I believe that one can't deny the presence of fate in the books as well. I get the sense that Cedric was depicted to have been the better match for Cho and in many ways superior to Harry at least for Cho and Harry realizes this. At that point, Cedric was older, taller, more mature, better looking, and one can argue that he was cleverer and more popular. Yes Harry is the hero in the books but Cedric was every bit the Champion of Hogwarts. All this might be a humbling experience for Harry as well as the realization that when it comes to relationships and love, there's something about not letting opportunities slip away and there's something about relationships and love that you can't really analyze. There is a perfect fit for Harry out there and there's a time and place where things might fall into place. Lily did not like the underaged James. The boys need some growing up while the girls need some growing up to realize what they really want in the significant other. I have friends who unexpectedly got together after high school and I don't believe they were even friends in high school let alone know much of each other.

Jessalynn Quirky - Sep 11, 2004 3:36 pm (#97 of 391)

Very good point, Gemini.

Solitaire - Sep 11, 2004 4:11 pm (#98 of 391)

It's possible that the kids in the WW meet and marry their life partners sooner than kids in the Muggle world, but they all seem awfully young for us to be casting about for their spouses when they are 15-16 (and in Ginny's case, 14-15). I shudder to think what some of us would have been stuck with if we'd married the man or woman we thought was perfect at that age.

Of course, some did marry childhood sweethearts and have had fabulous marriages ... but I think they may be the exceptions. It seems really early to make such a big decision in the WW, especially when you consider their much longer lifespan. How would you like to get stuck with the wrong person for over 100 years? Yikes!

Solitaire

Jessalynn Quirky - Sep 11, 2004 4:55 pm (#99 of 391)

Good point, Solitaire.....do you think wizards have some sort of divorce system? Marriage counseling?

Solitaire - Sep 11, 2004 7:11 pm (#100 of 391)

I don't know, but imagine what might happen if the couple is particularly acrimonious? It could get REEEEEEEEEEEALLY ugly! I was thinking more along those lines. I suppose couples who fight a lot could wind up with a regular room in St. Mungo's ... assuming jinxes and hexes are as far as they go.

Solitaire

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Phoenix song - Sep 11, 2004 8:16 pm (#101 of 391)

You're right, I'd hate to see a magical marital fall out. If Muggles can do terrible damage to one another (ripping up clothes and furniture, pouring concrete into convertibles, placing electronics into the bathtub with bleach and water, splashing paint all over walls and paintings, slashing tires, busting out windshields, pouring Nair over their spouses heads while they slept, catching beds on fire, etc.) then I would HATE to see what wizards could do if they were that angry with one another.

I agree that these guys are too young to be paired up for life. This is one of the reasons that I stay away from the "ship" threads. Harry liked Cho for a while, and then their time had passed. That's the way that teenage romances should be (for the most part). I can see that there could be some serious relationships developing (although I'm keeping my opinion of Hermione's future husband to myself) but I prefer to not dwell on the pressure to pair them up. Can you imagine living to 150 years old with the person that you picked at age 15? YIKES!!

Barbie

Solitaire - Sep 11, 2004 8:58 pm (#102 of 391)

Exactly, Barbie! Frightening thought!

I never go near the "shipper" threads. They remind me far too much of the junior high 'ship wars I see at school! I just want to see all of the kids make it through book 7 alive and intact! After that, they can marry whomever they like!

Star Crossed - Sep 12, 2004 8:28 am (#103 of 391)

See, that's the reason I like the shipper threads. I'm about to turn fifteen (Nine more days! Very Happy

), and I always plan out who I'm going to marry. And for some reason, I see Cho doing that, too. Wondering 'what if' with that boy.

RuthJ - Sep 12, 2004 8:01 pm (#104 of 391)

I'm betting Cho is wondering "what if" a lot more now that Cedric died than she ever would have had he lived and their 'ship continued. My sister's high school boyfriend moved, and she spent the next year sure that he was her soul mate, the only guy for her in the whole world. Had he stayed, they likely would have broken up w/in a few months.

Cho probably won't do that w/ Harry because their 'ship ran its course, didn't abruptly end.

By the way, Star Crossed, I love your avatar.

Czarina II - Sep 13, 2004 7:53 am (#105 of 391)

Makes me wonder if Cho was doodling things like "Mrs Cho Diggory" in the margins of her textbooks!

Gerald Costales - Sep 13, 2004 6:35 pm (#106 of 391)

On the shorter threads like this, I usually read all the past posts before posting. But, I had this observation about Cho. So, sorry if its been discussed.

Does anyone think that Cho's ability to produce a full bodied patronus is important? Of the 25 or so members of the DA only Harry, Hermione, and Cho could do it.

Producing a patronus is not a common ability. Harry was asked to produce Prongs during his OWLS. Judge Bones questioned Harry quite closely when Harry stated he had produced a patronus to chase the Dementors that had attacked Dudley and him during his hearing at MoM.

Everyone would have expected Hermione to produce a patronus, but CHO honestly!! If I was betting, my money would had been on Ginny or the Twins, Fred or George, to produce a patronus. CHO HONESTLY!! Maybe there's more to Cho than we're giving her credit for. ;-) GC

PS I think her loyalty to Marietta has clouded some people's opinion of her.

tracie1976 - Sep 14, 2004 2:35 am (#107 of 391)

I didn't think she produced a full patronus because it was described as "swan-like"

Jessalynn Quirky - Sep 14, 2004 3:11 am (#108 of 391)

Gerald, I think you might have something there. Good work! :-)

Star Crossed - Sep 14, 2004 11:05 am (#109 of 391)

Didn't Neville have one, too? I don't have my books with me.

I think she's trying to give Cho some credit. By that point, I'm sure a lot of people were sharpening their knives to stab her, but JKR's trying to say, "She's not perfect, but she is a good and talented person." That's what I got out of it, at least.

The One - Sep 14, 2004 12:46 pm (#110 of 391)

"She's not perfect, but she is a good and talented person."

I agree. There is nothing seriously wrong with Cho, other than that her boyfriend was murdered when she was 15.

Gemini Wolfie - Sep 14, 2004 7:04 pm (#111 of 391)

One point I want to add to previous discussion about age of marriage is that presumably, wizards have less to choose from than modern day Muggles. No one that we know from the book marries at 15-16. If they marry shortly out of school, they're 18-20 so thinking of marrying someone you started dating at age 15-16 isn't too far-fetched not to mention if you started dating them in your last year of Hogwarts. I'm sure it is increasingly more common for one to marry their high school sweetheart as we go back in generations. If the relationship doesn't end in a marriage then it doesn't, but there's a lot of people, girls especially, that would think of marriage unless they're the type to date around. Since there is no school after Hogwarts, unless you go into Auror training, it is conceivable that couples would want to start their own families and live their own lives.

Krum liked Hermione because she had substance. For a someone with such fame and talents, he picked what was in his mind a worthy match. It can be reasoned that Cedric was the best of-age student at Hogwarts at that time and he picked Cho. Both guys were definitely worthy characters, had lots of girls to choose from, yet they chose who they chose. Well you can't help who you fall in love with but there are often some good reasons for a particular match. Some may see Hermione and Ginny as being more talented because they're main characters in the story but Cho is Ravenclaw, is a talented Quidditch player, and also older. Hermione and Ginny may be talented and perhaps more talented than Cho, but it doesn't mean Cho isn't talented. Cho isn't a good match for Harry not because Cho isn't worthy; in fact, it's probably the other way around.

Sir Tornado - Sep 15, 2004 1:49 am (#112 of 391)

You mean Harry isn't worthy?

Czarina II - Sep 15, 2004 4:01 am (#113 of 391)

Well summed up, Gemini! Have some free points!

Tornado -- "You mean Harry isn't worthy?"

Harry wasn't worthy of Cho in GoF, to put it mildly. Neither of them were worthy of EACH OTHER in OoP, because they were both too wrapped up in their own lives and fantasies. One might safely assume that a few extra years might improve the situation, but Harry doesn't have a few extra years. There are only two left until the end of the series (well, two book-years). Besides, he is much too busy with Voldemort. To avoid dropping too far into shipping, I have to say that Harry and Cho have gone their separate ways now and good luck to them.

TomProffitt - Sep 15, 2004 4:03 am (#114 of 391)

I'm sure that's what Gemini meant, Tornado. Harry's got a lot of growing up to do. He's pretty clueless when it comes to dating and relationships.

Gemini Wolfie - Sep 15, 2004 6:47 pm (#115 of 391)

Yes thank you Czarina and Tom. I do mean that Cho deserved better. Harry needs other people to make the first move and break the ice almost every single time. Honestly, it doesn't matter how much Harry is going through. As someone who wants to be Cho's boyfriend, as a gentleman, or as a friend, Harry should have been more sensitive and understanding. Cho has made countless first moves and made her intentions known (common complaint of guys is thus null). Call me traditional, but it's Harry's job to make Cho happy.

Some of us here think that Cho was acting very unreasonable but is she really? Do most girls here think that? Would guys here mind if their significant other acted in that way? Would you wallow in the injustice or would you be (or try to be) constantly forgiving, understanding, and accepting whenever the girl you like gets into an emotional fit that you will never understand? Is there any wonder why Ginny and Hermione think the guys they supposedly like are fools?

mindy blue - Sep 15, 2004 10:18 pm (#116 of 391)

I thought I'd jump in here- Gemini, I'm not sure that you can compare this relationship to older, more mature relationships. (Does that make sense?) This is really Harry's first girlfriend-type, and only from our mistakes do we learn. If everyone's first relationship was perfect, we'd all be married rather early. It's just that these kids are young remember, not to mention the fact that they are dealing with so many other things that even some of us adults haven't dealt with. Cho lost her boyfriend rather abruptly, and Harry... Well we all know the kind of stuff he's been through. It's hard to start a relationship when there are so many other things going on at the same time, especially things where there are so many new and different emotions involved. I think that they are just all confused at what they are feeling right now, and they need to sort that out first before they decide to bring other people into it, sort of along the lines of that saying that goes :"You have to learn to love yourself before you can be loved." It took James a few years to mature, remember... BTW, can anyone tell me if it says specifically in the books that Cho is Chinese? Just wondering...

edit for clarity

TomProffitt - Sep 16, 2004 4:12 am (#117 of 391)

I looked "Cho" up in a name book and it came back Korean. I don't know about the surname, so I have always assumed she was Korean and not Chinese as most posters seem to place her.

Considering Harry and Cho's age it's not really a surprise it didn't work out between them. If someone has to take the blame, I agree with Gemini, it's Harry's fault. Yes, they're understandable mistakes, but they are his mistakes.

Gerald Costales - Sep 16, 2004 5:04 am (#118 of 391)

Tracie1976 (re: post #107)

I didn't think she produced a full patronus because it was described as "swan-like"

... “Oh don’t be such a killjoy," said Cho brightly, watching her silvery swan-shaped Patronus soar around the Room of Requirement during their last lesson before Easter. "They're so pretty!" (page 606, OoP, American Hardback Edition)

I think Cho’s Patronus was a full one, since it soared around the room.

Back to the current topic. JKR has nixed any future Harry and Cho relationship.

If you want to speculate about future pairings, I think that Ron and Hermione are a strong possibility (remember the hand touching scene in the 3rd Movie).

That leaves Harry with Ginny - Ginny is turning into a strong person. It would also provide Harry with a strong and supportive family. Molly already thinks of Harry as a son. When family was allowed to be present during the last task of the Triwizard Tournament, it was Molly and Bill Weasley that replaced the Dursley’s.

Neville and Luna also seem a likely pairing.

Cho will be in Books 6 and 7 and mostly likely with another boyfriend or with several new boyfriends. Cho seems to need a shoulder to cry on and is still very popular.

But, I think Cho has showed some Wizarding talent if see can produce a Patronus. With the rift between Harry and Cho, will Cho remain in the DA? And if Cho remains in the DA what will her role be? ;-) GC

Hermy-own - Sep 16, 2004 6:02 am (#119 of 391)

I hope Harry does not hold a grudge against Cho (and vice-versa).

But as a member of the DA, I think her loyalty to Marietta Edgecombe would raise more than one eyebrow. Ron, for one, would have his suspicions.

I'm not saying she should not remain friends with Marietta but things might be a little awkward on her part if that were to be the case.

In an ideal world Harry and Cho would make up and acknowledge that neither party was ready for a relationship.

Furthermore, I seem to remember JKR saying Cho's main purpose in the story was to be Harry's first crush. I doubt she will feature much in the remainder of the series.

Hermy. *Edited.

Gerald Costales - Sep 16, 2004 1:10 pm (#120 of 391)

This being the Cho thread, I think we need to explore Cho's talent as a Wizard, again the Patronus thing. If she is a good Wizard can, she can't be ignored when in the coming War every wand might be needed to defeat Voldemort.

There is a trust issue, but there is also a need issue. The DA needs more members not less. And Marietta had SNEAK on her forehead not Cho. If Dumbledore can give second chances can't Harry? ;-) GC

total hatred - Sep 16, 2004 6:06 pm (#121 of 391)

I think Harry will give Marietta a second chance but the question is whether Hermione will forgive her treachery

mindy blue - Sep 17, 2004 2:37 am (#122 of 391)

TomProffitt- You got Korean? See, I got Japanese... and apparently her names means "butterfly"... Forgive me if this sounds stupid, but aren't butterflies supposed to show something? I think i remember something about following the butterflies... But it could just be that it is very late, or early, depending on how you looked at it...

Gerald Costales - Sep 17, 2004 4:20 am (#123 of 391)

Cho could be part Korean, part Japanese, etc.

I've been wondering why Cho is so loyal to Marietta. I think Cho's loyalty to Marietta and the SNEAK issue really clouds our current opinion of Cho. Guilt by association. If we try to understand Cho's friendship/loyalty to Marietta, we could probably be more accepting of Cho.

I think despite Cho's popularity, prettiness, etc. Cho is very insecure. Cho on Marietta, "She's a lovely person really," said Cho. "She just made a mistake --" (page 637, OoP, American Hardback Edition)

Someone raised the issue of Harry trusting Cho. Cho's defense of Marietta appears childish --

... Harry looked at her (Cho) incredulously.

... "A lovely person who made a mistake? She sold us all out, including you!"

... "Well... we got away didn't we?" said Cho pleadingly. "You know, her mum works for the Ministry, it's really difficult for her - -" (page 637, etc.)

Now, Cho reveals some of her insecurities, on the SNEAK jinx, ... "Oh, yes I forgot - of course, it was darling Hermione's idea - -" (page 637, etc.)

Cho has been an emotional mess since Cedric's death (another insecurity), even Hermione was sympathetic with Cho after the Valentine's Day fiasco.

Cho defends Marietta because of family. When I was in college an Asian student had the opinion that American students were selfish and had no concept of family. (This was never spoken or overheard but was written on a note pinned on a bulletin board. The foreign students kept to themselves. And of course us American just ignored them.) Cho could be having cultural issues -I've been selfish. I joined the DA not thinking about my family. Cho is one of the few Asians in the Story. (Not really clear if the Patils are Middle Eastern or South Asian.)

Marietta could really be a true friend to Cho. And Cho's loyalty to Marietta, though misplaced should be accepted. (A friend in need is a friend indeed.) And finally Cho really has a trust issue with Harry. (Hermione did show up Valentine's Day, etc.)

Don't cry for Cho. Just try understanding her. ;-) GC

Gerald Costales - Sep 17, 2004 4:49 am (#124 of 391)

PS I am Asian. My parents were born in the old country.

El Cronista de Salem - Sep 19, 2004 1:51 am (#125 of 391)

Do you think that Cho's patronus has a clue? It is a swan.

The swan is related with the Chinese folklore... true? Maybe it hasn't more relation.

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Julia. - Sep 19, 2004 8:03 am (#126 of 391)

The swan is also related to the Holy Grail. If memory serves, at the end of the opera Loenghrind, a swan, sent by Loenghrind's father Parcifal to take him back to Montsaltat. Loenghrind and Parcifal are both knights of the Grail, coming to the rescue to save a maiden in distress. I have no idea what this has to do with Cho, but could her patronus have something to do with Harry or Cedric?

Gemini Wolfie - Sep 19, 2004 5:35 pm (#127 of 391)

Didn't JKR say Cho was Chinese? If not, I've always thought that she is. I'm quite certain Chang is the surname (since people get called on a first name basis in the books unless they are disliked). Nonetheless, the names Cho and Chang (both as first and last names) are very common Chinese names. It is less likely to be Korean and least likely to be Japanese. That's not to say that Koreans don't have Cho and Chang as names and that Japanese don't have it either, but they are Chinese names. If Cho's English name was Chloe, Chloe would have been her English name and Cho would have been her Chinese name and most likely middle name. Chloe wouldn't be Chinese though.

I don't think anyone should try to decipher the meaning of Cho's name because it is impossible unless you know the exact Chinese Characters. If you look up Romanization of Chinese characters, you'll probably find info about Pinyin and Wade-Giles. Outside of knowing Mainland Chinese mandarin, even Chinese speaking people might have trouble understanding and matching the Romanized names with the proper English ones. It's similar to English speakers reading the French name "Jacques". It's the French form of James and Jacob rather than Jack.

Mindy-Blue. I agree with what you said. When there's trauma in your life, it can be hard to start a relationship, but I think Cho thought that Harry must have suffered, and with everyone around them seemingly having forgotten about Cedric, Cho probably thought that they were the only ones in the world who can understand each other, and perhaps they could deal with the tragedy together. If Harry had been distressed over Cedric's death as much as Cho had and needed someone to talk to, a real deep bond could have been formed between the two. But as it turns out, Harry had talked about it, and was pretty much over it.

The point about "older, more mature relationships" is the point I was trying to touch on. What is considered old? What is considered mature? What age is considered of-age? In the modern Muggle world, there isn't a universal legal driving/ drinking/ gambling age not to mention a different from earlier times. What we do know is that the wizarding world is different from the modern Muggle world. Yes it was a first crush for Harry. But what if he and Cho did get together and stayed together? After Hogwarts, they would have been together for 3 years and can't they get married? James was with Lily for probably a little more than a year before they got married. Many people feel the need to "date around" nowadays but that doesn't mean it's necessary. Nowadays, even college relationships gets the term "puppy-love" but was it really? I agree though that Harry wasn't ready, but every year makes a big difference and Harry's heart will grow more certain.

Sir Tornado - Sep 20, 2004 2:09 am (#128 of 391)

I really can't hate Cho here. If you look at Ron's betrayal in GoF and Marietta’s in OotP, you'll notice there's something similar there: Both let their friends down. Also, Hermione defends Ron's behaviour (somewhat) to Harry. He doesn't get angry with her. In OotP, Cho was just trying to justify Harry's actions, which she would have had Harry not heated up too much.

There are a number of possibilities why Marietta spilled the bins to Umbridge. In my opinion, she must have told Cho the reason, and it must have been a good one. Wouldn't you sympathise Marietta is, for instance her Mother had threatened her to tell Umbridge or she would bring her back home? (i.e. threat to remove from Hogwarts). I believe, that as long as we do not know the circumstances of Marietta’s betrayal, we shouldn't hate her, and more significantly, we shouldn't blame Cho for defending her. After all, one has to stick up for one's friend.

Gerald Costales - Sep 20, 2004 4:17 am (#129 of 391)

Tornado

"I believe, that as long as we do not know the circumstances of Marietta’s betrayal, we shouldn't hate her, and more significantly, we shouldn't blame Cho for defending her. After all, one has to stick up for one's friend."

I agree with you, we need to see why Cho remains a friend with Marietta.

Given the fact that a war is brewing, I don't see Cho leaving the DA. Cho needed Marietta for support in Book 5. Will Cho attend DA meetings without Marietta? We can only assume that the DA will return as a recognized club at Hogwarts in Book 6. Even the Daily Prophet returned to praising Harry at the end of Book 5. The people wanting to join the DA should also increase.

Which brings me back to the point I've previously raised, what will Cho's role be in a new DA? If the DA expands, Harry couldn't handle training everyone. I only see Hermione and Cho being able to become assistant trainer. Again, because Hermione and Cho are the only DA members that can summon a Patronus.

Does Cho's swan Patronus have any hidden meanings? Prongs, Harry's Patronus, is of course Harry's father helping Harry. JKR has stated that the person most like her in the Book is Hermione - a little know it all, when JKR was younger. And an otter is one JKR's favorite animals (another favorite animal being the weasel). I think Hermione's otter Patronus has no hidden meaning, but reflects both Hermione's and JKR's personality. JKR stated that you can't pick your Patronus.

Does Cho's swan Patronus simply reflect Cho's personality? The only hidden meaning I would suggest for the swan is the swan from "The Ugly Duckling". I've suggested that Cho is insecure. Could Cho have overcome some previous insecurities and became a beautiful swan?

I'm hoping someone responses to Julia's post #126. I know my explanation of Cho's Patronus is too simple. Not that JKR only has complex and hidden meanings in all of her symbolisms.

Dumbledore gave Snape a second chance. The only way I see Marietta returning to the DA is if Harry follows Dumbledore's example and gives Marietta a second chance. Also, Harry did give a second chance to Peter Pettigrew the worst traitor in the Story so far. ;-) GC

Chris. - Sep 20, 2004 4:23 am (#130 of 391)

Marietta did a bad thing, which I'm sure she regrets. This shows another side to show, a forgiving side. Cho is Marietta's friend and as that, Edgecombe is entitled to a second chance, like anyone.

Swans are very beautiful, but they can be very angry when provoked. In Greek mythology, Zeus took the form of a swan to seduce the beautiful Leda, the wife of Tyndareus, the king of Sparta. It shows it's an animal of seduction.

Also, in the Middle Ages the swan was said to be white on the outside with black skin, thus thought to be a symbol of duplicity. Cho had a double side. There was Cho Chang, sixth year Ravenclaw seeker, beautiful...popular, and then there was the side that Harry saw. The manipulative side.

Gemini Wolfie - Sep 20, 2004 10:40 pm (#131 of 391)

Tornado, I really wish you would stop saying that Ron betrayed Harry because he didn't. Razz

I agree that there's something important that we don't know that could help us judge Marietta's actions. A likely consequence of her action was that Cho could have been expelled. Now unless Marietta brokered a deal with Umbridge, that's really bad. But the DA was an "illegal" group. Even Hermione was apprehensive about it at first. And like Ron *cough* Tornado *cough*, Marietta was real from start to end. She didn't hide her feelings. But maybe it's just me, I value honesty from my friends much more than unquestioned support. I know some people rather not be questioned and be supported, but I actually prefer to know that I'm supported because my friend takes my viewpoint and not doing it because he/she is my friend. I agree completely that we shouldn't blame Cho. There are so many good defenses of Marietta that she deserves the benefit of the doubt. Telling on someone might be "uncool" and it might end up being the wrong decision (some illegal activities really don't do any harm) but it's never really the wrong thing to do.

Back to Cho. I really don't think she is manipulative. There are some things that aren't meant to be analyzed. I think if we were able to access Cho's thoughts, we would like her much more than we like Harry. That's just a hunch Razz

. Honestly, Harry is the hero, but he ain't the nicest person around.

mindy blue - Sep 20, 2004 10:58 pm (#132 of 391)

Gemini- (in response to post 127)I think that you are right, that if Cho and Harry had talked about what they were feeling about Cedric's death, that there would've been a stronger bond between the two. However, I think that that's kind of a recurring thing that happens with Harry throughout the books- he doesn't talk discuss what he's feeling with others, because he thinks no one will understand. But the way I took it is that they both saw the death in different ways. I think what distressed Harry most about Cedric's death were the events surrounding it while Cho was mainly mourning the loss of Cedric. Harry didn't know Cedric all that well, so maybe he wouldn't have been so much of a comfort to Cho anyway. As for the "older, more mature" relationships, I didn't mean older as in age, more like length-wise. Maybe longer would’ve been a better word? And I guess there are instances where first relationships lead to marriage, but usually not. I know when I was 15 I dated a guy because he had a sweet Mohawk. That was the whole basis of the relationship, that Mohawk. So that's really what I mean about "more mature" I guess, as in not dating a guy for his sweet Mohawk. It seemed to me that Harry had a crush on Cho based on nothing more than her appearance, but I could be wrong. But I totally agree with you when you said "every year makes a big difference". 18 is the legal age of consent for marriage I think in most of the states in the US, and to me that sounds about right. I only say this because I basically grew up with the same group of people and I've seen some of them change drastically once they hit 18 and left the high school world, like James apparently did. And it also could be a cultural thing; I don't know what the norm for marriage in the wizarding world is. I wasn't saying he should "date around" or anything, I was just saying that he definitely has to mature as a person, and then the relationship could be stronger. It goes back to the whole thing I said about one learning to love oneself before being loved. So I guess in a round about way we are in agreement: Harry has to grow up. Which he will. And his relationships will "grow up" as well.

Gerald Costales - Sep 21, 2004 6:20 am (#133 of 391)

I don't see Cho leaving the DA in Book 6.

We can only assume that the DA will return as a recognized club at Hogwarts in Book 6. Because of the Daily Prophet stories praising Harry at the end of Book 5, people will be wanting to join the DA.

Which brings me back to the point I've previously raised, what will Cho's role be in a new DA?

If the DA expands, Harry couldn't handle training everyone. I only see Hermione and Cho being able to become assistant trainer. Again, because Hermione and Cho are the only DA members that can summon a Patronus.

I agree Harry has to grow up. But to take Harry's side Cho needs to grow up some too. Cho already has Ginny's old boyfriend and I can imagine Cho with several other boyfriends in the next two Books. Cho has already moved on. (Why don't we.)

But, I still think Cho will have role in the final two books besides Harry's first crush ;-) GC

PS I know it a girl's thread, but us boys like Cho too. I always pictured a young Lucy Liu as Cho *wink*. ;-) GC

Gemini Wolfie - Sep 21, 2004 8:34 pm (#134 of 391)

Lucy Liu has a rather um... colourful background... so hopefully Cho doesn't live up to that comparison.

Gerald, I agree. Cho has to grow up and I think she will. Time does heal most wounds. And when two people stop liking each other in a romantic kind of way, it's so much easier to talk and work out differences. I think Cho will be the one to apologize to Harry for the way she acted and that'll be that. We don't have too much insight into Cho's character but from what I know, there's really nothing I would change about her. Once she stops crying, her jealousy can actually be kind of cute.

Mindy. I agree with what you said. Cho was really the only one mourning the loss of Cedric it seems and that's the problem. Cho must have thought Harry was the one other person. There are many couples that got together because they mourned the loss of a common friend. Good or bad, this sort of common bond is significant. Cho sought this common bond and came up empty while Harry sought something else (probably away from the normal troubles of his life).

mindy blue - Sep 21, 2004 9:34 pm (#135 of 391)

GC- I'm not so sure the DA will return as a club. Maybe now that there is a full on war, Hogwarts will get a competent DADA teacher, and the class will become more like the DA meetings. All of Voldemort's actions in the past books have kind of centered around Hogwarts, because of Harry, and I think now that the WW knows for sure that Voldemort is back more precautions with the students are going to be taken. I think all that they learn at Hogwarts will have more of a real life application than before. Or maybe I'm wrong. I guess we won't know for sure until book 6.

And when two people stop liking each other in a romantic kind of way, it's so much easier to talk and work out differences- Gemini

Probably the truest statement I have ever heard (or read, I guess)

Jealousy can be kinda cute, huh? Maybe I will have to try that sometime Wink

edited

Gerald Costales - Sep 27, 2004 4:34 am (#136 of 391)

mindy blue

"Maybe now that there is a full on war, Hogwarts will get a competent DADA teacher, ..."

Bad DADA teachers are a plot device for JKR, with the exception of Lupin all the DADAs have been Bad, ...

... 1. Quirrel/Voldermort ......... BAD

... 2. Remus Lupin ......... Good

... 3. Gilderoy Lockhart ......... BAD

... 4. Mad-eye Moody/Bart Crouch Jr. ......... BAD, not even Moody

... 5. Dolores Umbridge ......... Really BAD, but doesn't count, she was picked by Fudge.

Because the next DADA teacher will probably be BAD rather than GOOD, the importance of a good DA club at Hogwarts will probably be more necessary if there is a full on War. ;-) GC

mindy blue - Sep 28, 2004 5:56 am (#137 of 391)

GC, I agree with you that the DADA teachers are a plot device for JKR, but to me it seemed like that they are used as a catalyst for the big reaction in each book, and most of them just turned out to be bad because there had to be some reason they had to leave in order to make room for someone else, the new catalyst. IMO I can't think of a new way for the DADA teacher to turn out bad. So far we've had a guy possessed by Voldemort, a DE in disguise, a downright evil toad, a werewolf, and a moron. I like to think that the new teacher will be good, and maybe die fighting or leave to do some work for the Order after the school year is through. GC, I'd like to know how you think this teacher will turn out bad, because you come up with such interesting ideas, but maybe on another thread. We're a little off topic here... That said, I think the DA will still be important regarding the people who were in it, rather than the club itself. I think Cho will have an important role in any battle where the students are involved. She's obviously smart, and she's popular so I could see her leading a big group of students quite effectively.

Gerald Costales - Sep 29, 2004 4:34 am (#138 of 391)

I saw one poll that had most people think that the HBP is the next DADA teacher. That would certainly make the next DADA teacher the catalyst in Book 6 since "the Half-Blood Prince" is part of the title of the book.

I don't have a clue who or what the next DADA will be. My guess is that the 7th and final DADA will be another Good teacher. Rather late to help prepare Harry for that Final Confrontation with Voldemort in Book 7. But, Harry has proved to be an exceptional Wizard.

Back to Cho, Cho's ability to produce a Patronus must be important. And the only way for her to use a Patronus, outside of being attacked, would be to training others in the DA.

Maybe the new DADA will run the new DA. But, Cho was be more important than Harry's failed first crush. I just don't see Cho slipping behinds the scenes like Gilderoy at St. Mungo’s. ;-) GC

Steve Newton - Sep 29, 2004 8:38 am (#139 of 391)

To those who seem to be excusing Marietta I will refer you to Sirius' comments to Peter. Paraphrased they are "You should have died." She betrayed her friends. I can't think of anything that would justify this, except other friends. She didn't even warn Cho.

Paulus Maximus - Sep 29, 2004 8:46 am (#140 of 391)

I think that was his exact quote, not a paraphrase.

Leila 2X4B - Sep 29, 2004 12:52 pm (#141 of 391)

Steve, that is a bit harsh. She is 15 years old. She is still rather young. It is a lot different than the situation that Peter put his friends in. He was an adult. We cannot expect children to make adult choices and, whether or not people want to admit it, 15 is not the same as 25. Studies have proven that the brains of teenagers do not have the same impulse control. She made a bad decision, but she was in between a rock and a hard place. If Cho can forgive, so should we.

Leila

Gerald Costales - Sep 29, 2004 5:13 pm (#142 of 391)

Even Harry spared Wormtail. And Dumbledore gave Snape a second chance. ;-) GC

Hermy-own - Sep 29, 2004 5:36 pm (#143 of 391)

Sleeping Beauty and Gerald make good points.

Though her actions were questionable I do not think Marietta is beyond forgiveness.

Hermy.

Gerald Costales - Sep 30, 2004 6:14 am (#144 of 391)

Final comments on Marietta, I think Ron will be the one unforgiving of Marietta and Cho. With Hermione more forgiving of Cho and less forgiving of Marietta.

Hermione was sympathetic of Cho after Valentine's Day and I think Hermione will continue to be sympathetic to Cho. Cho lost Cedric and really wasn't ready for another relationship even with Harry.

JKR has Harry see the Thestrals at the beginning of Book 5 not the end of Book 4 because Harry had to process the killing of Cedric. Cho also needed to process the death of Cedric, but I doubt she did. Remember Cho still cries in the girl's bathroom.

"Back to Cho, Cho's ability to produce a Patronus must be important. And the only way for her to use a Patronus, outside of being attacked, would be to training others in the DA." (reposted form post #138)

Any thoughts or comments. And finally.

"But, Cho has to be more important than Harry's failed first crush. I just don't see Cho slipping behinds the scenes like Gilderoy at St. Mungo’s. ;-) GC (edited and reposted from post #138)

PS If anything I'm persistent. ;-0 GC

Gemini Wolfie - Oct 3, 2004 1:40 am (#145 of 391)

I think Cho is sympathetic of Cho because she's a girl and she knows what fools Ron and Harry are. Would it be wrong to say that it's a girl thing? A common understanding? Ron just happens to be an expert in sensitivity to a girl's feelings so you can ignore him. Razz

I don't know about Cho slipping behind the scenes. She wasn't exactly up front and center. She'll probably be as important as other supporting characters in other houses such as Ernie. I think Harry will always have a soft spot for Cho though. There's still a lot of story to tell and there's simply not enough space to expand on all characters in the story. If we're ever going to read more about Ginny and Luna, Cho will have to take a backseat unless she joins the group.

Gerald Costales - Oct 3, 2004 5:55 am (#146 of 391)

Gemini Wolfie - "I think Cho is sympathetic of Cho because she's a girl and she knows what fools Ron and Harry are."

I'm thinking you must have meant this.

"I think Hermione is sympathetic of Cho because she's a girl and she knows what fools Ron and Harry are."

"If we're ever going to read more about Ginny and Luna, Cho will have to take a backseat unless she joins the group."

You're probably right, but I would hope Cho would be present in some minor role. Hey, doesn't Ron need a girlfriend. *wink* ;-) GC

Hermy-own - Oct 3, 2004 10:34 am (#147 of 391)

"You're probably right, but I would hope Cho would be present in some minor role. Hey, doesn't Ron need a girlfriend. *wink*"

I hate to discuss 'shipping on a "non-'ship" thread but I feel I have to say that any romance between Ron and Cho is unlikely.

I very much doubt that either will show any interest in the other. That's not to mention the fact that Cho is Harry's ex. What kind of issues would we be dealing with if she started dating Harry's best friend?

Aside from 'ships ... As much as I would like for Cho to play a significant role in the following books, I doubt she will feature as much as she has done; in my opinion, she has fulfilled her role -- Harry's first crush -- in the series.

Hermy.

Edited for clarity.

Paulus Maximus - Oct 3, 2004 10:46 am (#148 of 391)

"I have to say that any romance between Ron and Cho is unlikely."

Yes... Ron is learning that looks aren't everything, and looks seem to be all that's going in Cho's favor. (Well, maybe the tears would attract some boys, but Ron specifically said that he preferred a cheerful girl to a sad one.)

ex-FAHgeek - Oct 3, 2004 11:52 am (#149 of 391)

---quote--- Yes... Ron is learning that looks aren't everything, and looks seem to be all that's going in Cho's favor. ---end quote---

And friendliness. Beauty may have first caught Harry's eye, but he was far more thankful that Cho treated him kindly during the pre-1st task fiasco than he was for the appearance of her eyes.

Paulus Maximus - Oct 3, 2004 1:17 pm (#150 of 391)

Cho's friendliness seems to be eroding, I think.

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Gemini Wolfie - Oct 3, 2004 4:19 pm (#151 of 391)

Oops. Thanks for fixing things for me Gerald! I was thinking too much about Cho Very Happy

Paulus. What made you say that? In the last Cho scene, she met Harry's eyes and blushed. If she was unfriendly she would have either avoided eye contact with Harry or quickly turn away and walk on, like she did before when she was mad at Harry. The blush meant something. It could have meant a lot of things, but I can't see how it's not a positive thing.

I really don't like the assessment of Cho as being a sad girl because she's not. She's a cheerful girl. Hermione ran off and cried in book 1. Ginny cried in book 2. Cho cries in book 5. Parvati and Lavender cries in like every book. When you're feeling sad, or scared, or when you're troubled, you feel like crying. After it rains, it can be sunny again. It's better than being cloudy all the time.

Paulus Maximus - Oct 3, 2004 6:07 pm (#152 of 391)

But Hermione didn't cry all the time in book 1...

total hatred - Oct 4, 2004 2:33 am (#153 of 391)

I agree. She only cried because Ron is far too mean to her

Hermy-own - Oct 4, 2004 8:56 am (#154 of 391)

We must remember that Cho had not completely recovered from losing Cedric. Things could not have been easy for her.

Prefect Marcus - Oct 4, 2004 9:50 am (#155 of 391)

I dated a number of girls while at college. There was this one girl I was dating very seriously. She was no Miss America contestant, but she was far from being a troll either. The friends of a girl I had gone out with once and only once about six months earlier kept telling her that my current friend "wasn't very pretty." This highly amused the girl because she was no more interested in me than I was in her. She could care less what I was doing. It was her friends that had decided we were meant for each other. They were the ones who were offended by me dating other girls.

I suspect that there is a some of this in the strong dislike some people feel towards Cho. They are perhaps feeling strong loyalty to their favorite 'ship and resent any time Harry might spend away from it.

There are also those who feel protective of Harry and dislike seeing him making the stumbles that we all make in growing up.

Whatever may be the case, give Cho a break. She and Harry had a brief relationship that didn't work out. They both have moved on. End of story. Now is the time for Harry to have another false start with another girl before he settles down with his ultimate partner.

Paulus Maximus - Oct 4, 2004 11:33 am (#156 of 391)

Or perhaps it's time for Harry to make a true start with another girl, who will ultimately become his wife...

Nah... Harry has a much bigger fish to fry before that can happen anyway.

Gerald Costales - Oct 5, 2004 5:06 am (#157 of 391)

"Back to Cho, Cho's ability to produce a Patronus must be important. And the only way for her to use a Patronus, outside of being attacked, would be to training others in the DA." (reposted form post #138)

Any thoughts or comments. ;-) GC

PS I see Harry with Ginny. And Cho will probably have several new boyfriends. ;-) GC

total hatred - Oct 6, 2004 2:12 pm (#158 of 391)

I seriously doubt Cho can use her patronus in battle. She is easily affected emotionally.

Hermy-own - Oct 6, 2004 2:33 pm (#159 of 391)

I am inclined to agree with that. Producing a Patronus would be much harder to do in the presence of a Dementor than in a DA meeting.

Having said that, it would be funny if Cho ends up saving Harry from a Dementor attack.

Hermy.

total hatred - Oct 6, 2004 3:05 pm (#160 of 391)

I believe it is the other way around. It is more interesting if Mione saved her from the Dementors. I wonder what Hermione's patronus will do.

Paulus Maximus - Oct 6, 2004 6:01 pm (#161 of 391)

I agree with Total Hatred and Hermy-own, remembering what Cho said about how pretty the Patroni were.

Granted, Harry DID inform her that they're supposed to protect you, not look pretty...

Gemini Wolfie - Oct 7, 2004 10:07 pm (#162 of 391)

I think the patronus business serves a few purpose. It's an example of the diverging paths that Harry and Cho are following. For those who have a bigger interest in the upcoming war such as Neville, the DA is a place to work and not a place to play. If it reflects the person's character it can have a good and bad connotation of course. One meaning of swan is to travel around from place to place... meaning she can't make up her mind or...

Anyways... I really don't know why Cho's crying is such a despicable thing for so many people. I think Cho's crying show's nothing but a goodness in her. She cares.

ex-FAHgeek - Oct 9, 2004 12:07 pm (#163 of 391)

---quote--- I think Cho's crying shows nothing but a goodness in her. She cares. ---end quote---

I agree. Cho is a good, kind-hearted person... who is simply not cut out for the hero business. She's emotional and more concerned with a appreciating the more mundane things in life (the beauty of a swan, the affection of a boyfriend, a friendship so close you can forgive each other no matter what) than making some momentous change in the world. Cedric's death inspired her to take a shot at it, but in the end I think the scene with her patronus is very telling: she could have the talent, but she simply doesn't have the temperament for it.

That's why the role of Harry, Hermione, Dumbledore, the Order, etc. is so important. They need to stop the bad guys so people like Cho (or Lavender, or Trelawney, or whoever) who aren't cut out to save the world can continue their lives without having to deal with the threat of Voldemort, the Death Eaters, Umbridge, etc. themselves.

Grimber - Oct 10, 2004 2:26 pm (#164 of 391)

JKR did though set up a nice possible humorous relationship encounter with Cho though.

Cho definitely being a 'flavor of the week' sort of girl and at the end of OotP Ron the 'Weasley is our King' Keeper and prefect.

I could almost see the encounter.

Cho " um...Ron next Hogsmeade weekend is this week and I was wondering..."

Ron " I'm meeting Hermione and Harry in the Three broomsticks if you want to come I guess"

Cho " Oh!... what is it with Hermione! Krum, and Harry now you all love her!? She's placing you all under some spell!"

Ron " What?! You're mental!"

Cho runs off crying.

Ron looks at Harry " What’s her problem?" Harry shrugs as they head off to Herbology.

TomProffitt - Oct 10, 2004 3:52 pm (#165 of 391)

"Cho definitely being a 'flavor of the week' sort of girl...." --- Grimber

While I found your post humorous, I don't see Cho that way at all.

When I was in school I dated two different girls, each for quite a lengthy period. In between I dated three or four girls trying to find the right match.

I don't see Cho as being fickle at all.

total hatred - Oct 10, 2004 7:02 pm (#166 of 391)

Here is possible situation

Cho finds Harry outside the Ravenclaw common room

Cho: Hello Harry. Looking for me?

Harry: No.

Cho: (slightly disappointed) Are still angry with me? If that is the case, I am sorry for dumping you and for Marietta betrayal.

Harry: I have long forgiven you, Cho. I understand you. I am waiting for my new "girl friend".

Cho: Who? I can't think of anyone far more beautiful than me in Ravenclaw. Are saying that you me to be your girlfriend again?

Luna butts in

Luna: Actually, he is waiting for me. Let's go Harry. I ready for our little excursion in Hogsmeade.

Cho: What, you replaced me with Loony Luna. That is unacceptable. What did you see in her that I don't have. You are big meanie.

Harry: Do you have a problem with that Cho?]

Cho runs inside while crying

Luna: What did you do with her, Harry? You made her cry. It is not nice to make girls cry.

Harry: Nothing. I just told her you are my "girl friend" and she begun wailing like a siren. She is such a crybaby. Is it true that you are my new "girl friend"?

Luna: Yes, I am you new "girl friend". There nothing wrong with it. After all I am your new female friend. Maybe Cho just feels like to cry today. Let's go Harry, Mione is waiting for us in Hogsmeade.

Gemini Wolfie - Oct 10, 2004 9:26 pm (#167 of 391)

If Harry calls Cho a crybaby without being made feel bad about it, then he would be some hero.

Cho will be back to her normal self in the next book.

TomProffitt - Oct 12, 2004 8:53 am (#168 of 391)

I'm not certain I understand why Cho is unpopular with so many forum members. I cannot identify anything she has done that was wrong.

The worst things she's done have been to back up a friend who made a mistake, cry because her boyfriend was murdered, and find another boyfriend after her current one couldn't understand that there was nothing wrong with the first two.

I still like Cho, what's not to like?

timrew - Oct 12, 2004 2:01 pm (#169 of 391)

Well, she's pretty....and Harry was interested in her. That would make her unpopular with a lot of ladies!

Phoenix song - Oct 12, 2004 8:06 pm (#170 of 391)

TomProffitt: I can tell you why I think that most people don't seem to like Cho. It's the Minnie Mouse syndrome. Most women/girls who like Mickey Mouse do not like Minnie Mouse at all. If you don't believe me, find some female who really likes Disney and ask her. I've yet to find a single girl/woman/lady who likes Minnie. I'm sure that there are some who do, but I think that they'd be the minority.

It's not that she's not sweet. It's not that she's not cute. It's not that they don't like her clothes (because she dresses rather cute). It's not even that she's a bad girlfriend. It's the fact that she is Mickey Mouse's girlfriend. She's the hero's girlfriend and even though she's particularly hard to dislike, she's utterly dislikable because she's in that particular position. How many women like Lois Lane? Another thing, why is it that Princess Leia was more likable after it was clear that she was aiming towards Han Solo and not Luke Skywalker?

I think that many of us don't like Cho because we don't feel that she's good enough for Harry even though she seems to be just fine. We'd be okay with her if she was dating almost any other guy...but not Harry.

It could also be that many of us are hoping that Harry will find another girlfriend. There are many of us who are set on him being with either Ginny, Pansy, or Hermione. We're not too keen on having him date some random girl. It's like on Friends when Ross brought home his new girlfriend Julie. The audience really disliked her just because we wanted Ross to be with Rachel. It didn't matter how wonderful she might have been, she wasn't what the audience wanted. The same theory applies to Cho in my opinion.

Well, now that's as clear as mud...

Barbie

DJ Evans - Oct 12, 2004 8:20 pm (#171 of 391)

Barbie: Well, now that's as clear as mud...

hee hee Well, it's clear to me!! Now rather it will be to any of the others I don't know. By the way? I agree, it's not because they aren't nice or anything -- just that they aren't who we would have chosen for them.

Later, Deb

Sir Tornado - Oct 12, 2004 10:30 pm (#172 of 391)

Well, Phoenix, good reasoning. But I've got another doubt. Or rather 2 of them.

1) Why do many Boys/Men dislike Cho?

2) Would people have disliked Hermione if she was Harry's girlfriend?

Please note: Do not answer the 2nd question on your Shipping prejudices. Answer it in a scenario in which Ron might not have been present.

Thanks

Grimber - Oct 13, 2004 2:18 am (#173 of 391)

Ok I'll place my reasons for disliking Cho (I'm a guy btw Smile

)

Cho is the sort of girl who is not attracted to a guy because of any reason other than that guy is one of the popular crowd. The guy has a name around school, he's someone important. She gets so emotional when the boy doesn't turn out to be the typical popular boyfriend where everything between them seems to be sweet and perfect social wise.

Not all girls get angry or hot tempered when they get mad, or upset. some get terribly emotional and cry their eyes out over anything. I see Cho as the same. I knew this one girl in high school, use to cry her eyes out if she got a scuff mark on the heel of her new shoes or if the fork she picked up in the cafeteria was bent the wrong way ( no joke there). They are an emotional tornado and Cho one of these type of girls.

She is a social climber. She uses men and her looks and emotions like ladder steps. Otherwise she’s one of the crowd of 'giggle girls' that huddle in corners or groups, laugh and point at the non popular geek/nerd boys.

For Hermione? wouldn't have a problem with her being Harry’s girlfriend. She has no interest in how she appears socially, she would be more concerned about harry, listen to what he has to say. Not be so ready to snap at him and run off crying. She would be by his side. Not someone like Cho would be hanging onto Harry

Phoenix song - Oct 13, 2004 10:57 am (#174 of 391)

Tornado: I don't know how many men dislike Cho. I'm assuming that some of them do, but it seems like they're pretty non-committal about her. I would think that most men aren't too keen to be with a woman that's so prone to crying, though. (It seems to make them nervous.)

I don't know how to answer #2 without straying into 'ship/'ship topics. I'll just say that in order for Hermione to be a possible girlfriend candidate for Harry, I think that she would have to have an entirely different relationship with Harry. It's possible that this different relationship would cause readers to feel differently about her.

Barbie

Mrs Brisbee - Oct 13, 2004 12:00 pm (#175 of 391)

I, too, don't understand the hostility towards Cho. She seems to have been a happy, outgoing, and nice girl whose boyfriend was then murdered in cold blood. No wonder if she's upset (and to be fair, it's not as though Harry doesn't have any emotional problems). She cries because she is confused and unhappy, she feels very personally the loss of Cedric. She joined the DA because she wanted to take some action after Cedric's murder. I see a lot of admirable qualities in her.

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Sir Tornado - Oct 13, 2004 7:14 pm (#176 of 391)

I agree, I don't hate Cho either. I just don't like her. At 16, she does seem a tad immature.

TomProffitt - Oct 13, 2004 7:34 pm (#177 of 391)

To a 40 year old she seems a lot more mature (emotionally if not in the sense of understanding the real world) than Ron and Harry.

5 years ago my 13 year old nephew died of cancer, it still brings a tear to my eye on occasion.

I think it's the boys who can't handle Cho needing to cry a bit that are bit immature.

Sir Tornado - Oct 14, 2004 1:02 am (#178 of 391)

I'm really sorry about your nephew Tom. Anybody would cry if someone close to them dies...

But that's not the reason why I think Cho's immature... it's just that she acts too childish. Hermione does cry but I don't consider her to be immature.

Catherine - Oct 15, 2004 7:29 am (#179 of 391)

She is a social climber. She uses men and her looks and emotions like ladder steps. Otherwise she’s one of the crowd of 'giggle girls' that huddle in corners or groups, laugh and point at the non popular geek/nerd boys. --Grimber

I don't think we've seen this at all. Cho was nice to Harry when lots of other people in GoF were wearing badges and making fun of him. Cho was polite when she had to turn him down for the Yule Ball. Her girlfriends might giggle, but Cho doesn't. Also, we don't know that Cho's friends are giggling at unpopular students or being mean. They might just be giggling because they are silly, or having fun, or are embarrassed.

TomProffitt - Oct 15, 2004 7:30 am (#180 of 391)

They might be giggling because they wish that Harry had asked them to the Yule Ball.

Ginerva Weasley - Oct 15, 2004 10:41 am (#181 of 391)

Personally, I don't like Cho.

It might be because I'm a girl or it might not.

I think it's because ever since I began reading Chamber of Secrets I saw it as this:

--Ron will end up with Hermione-- --Harry will end up with Ginny--

I think I was one of the FEW people who saw Hermione ending up with Ron that early on in the books. I just thought that since Ginny had a crush on Harry it would be mean to have him date Hermione right in front of her.

I also think that Cho is fickle and immature. She seems to be focused on what she thinks is right. She yelled at Harry because he wouldn't talk about Cedric when she needed to, and yet she doesn't even consider the fact that after SEEING HIM DIE he really wouldn't want to talk about Cedric. (yes, I know she said something in the beginning about Harry probably not wanting to talk about it, but I'm talking about later on)

It might also be because we get to understand why Harry reacts the way he does. With Cho we just hear about what she does and we have to assume why she does them. (It's very easy to assume bad things when you are inclined not to like her)

Gemini Wolfie - Oct 16, 2004 6:55 pm (#182 of 391)

She seems to be focused on what she thinks is right Isn't that a trait shared by our main characters as well?

While fame may be a fickle friend Razz

Cho is not.

Seriously, haven't we all wondered why someone is with a particular person even though we see such great disparity in worthiness? How often do we consider the fact that perhaps this particular person was at the right place at the right time or was actually the only person who actually asked her out? How many of us have considered the fact that even though we are told that Cho is pretty and popular, perhaps no one approached Cho with genuine affections for the longest time except for Cedric and Harry? I'm not saying that it is good for anyone to like or go out with whomever asks of them, but it's a step in the right direction. Did/does Hermione like Krum or did Krum, unlike somebody else, had the sense to treat Hermione as a girl and have the guts to ask her out? I just know that I'm constantly surprised how powerful persistence and being brave in declaring your affections towards another person is.

So Cho is fickle and Ginny is not? Did Harry NOT want to talk about Cedric because he saw him died or did he not want to talk about Cedric because he's finished talking about him. Because he has been healed through "talking" to Hermione and Ron? Either way, it might be insensitive of Cho but isn't it even more insensitive of Harry? Kind of like when Harry preferred to be seen with someone other than Neville and Luna on the train. I don't blame Harry for thinking that, it's his realisation that those thoughts are bad that makes Harry a good guy overall.

Grimber. This emotional girl of yours. Does she play sports/not afraid to get dirty/hurt/roughed up? Is she nice to you? Is she nice to unpopular guys? Is she nice to popular boys/girls' enemy #1? Does she turn on those who are unpopular? If the answer is no then your comparison to Cho seems farfetched.

I don't mean to bash on Harry but he got mad at Cedric out of jealousy. Ron went from Krum fan to pretty much Krum hater out of jealousy? And Cho can't get mad at someone who supposedly likes her and asked her out to Valentine's, for setting up another date with another girl who had been rumoured to be playing with Harry's affections?

MickeyCee3948 - Oct 16, 2004 7:01 pm (#183 of 391)

Seems to me that most men know or have known in their life a girl like Cho. A girl who is extremely attractive, one who cries on a moments notice, gets mad over small transgressions and prefers to be around the man of the hour. I think that Hermione would have better served Harry if he had spoken to Cho and maybe explained a little about Harry to her. She definitely expects Harry to be far more mature than most 15 year olds.

Mikie

KWeldon - Oct 18, 2004 9:04 am (#184 of 391)

My problem with Cho is that I find it absolutely bizarre that she came onto Harry in the Room of Requirements while she was still crying over Cedric and wanting to know more of what happened.

I don't think it's impossible to have feelings for two people at once, at all. But, kissing him while you're still crying about the other is just plain weird. Get your emotions under control before you move on, and especially before you kiss the boy! Good grief.

haymoni - Oct 18, 2004 11:28 am (#185 of 391)

Did you see "When Harry Met Sally"???

I think the poor girl was a wreck.

Harry was the only person that could answer her questions. He was the only person who could tell her the facts and he didn't want to talk about it.

I think she needed some comfort and went to the only person that could give it to her.

Unfortunately, it was a 15-year-old clueless boy.

Hermy-own - Oct 18, 2004 11:42 am (#186 of 391)

While I agree with you, haymoni, I am also inclined to believe Cho did have feelings for Harry. If all she wanted was to talk, why did she go ahead to kiss the boy? Good grief, indeed!

Hermy.

KWeldon - Oct 18, 2004 12:10 pm (#187 of 391)

Hermy and Haymoni,

I did see the movie, and I didn't think Sally behaved appropriately either.

I think Cho did have some feelings for Harry. She seemed genuinely disappointed that she had to turn him down for the Ball. However, even if she liked Harry, what the heck kind of signals are you sending him if you are crying while you're moving in for the kill?

Poor guy.

KWeldon

haymoni - Oct 18, 2004 12:24 pm (#188 of 391)

KWeldon, I will defer to the excellent explanation given by our beloved Miss Hermione Granger.

KWeldon - Oct 18, 2004 12:53 pm (#189 of 391)

I agree, although I was frustrated by her not warning Harry BEFOREHAND that he needed to assure Cho that their meeting at the pub was strictly platonic. I know Harry is clueless, but I think at 15 years old Hermione should have seen it coming for him.

Catherine - Oct 18, 2004 4:05 pm (#190 of 391)

Oh, C'mon,

We're not going to blame Hermione for not "warning" Cho, or reminding Harry that everything is strictly platonic, are we?

Hermione was a bit excited (yes, she's fifteen years old, too, and just because she's smart, let's not expect TOO much) that Rita had responded to her post, and was finalizing the details for the Rita interview.

The average secretary would not be held accountable for the "boss's" plans with a meeting. Why hold Hermione accountable, just because Hermione and Luna would be there? Cho was the older girl, and acted in haste, and without knowing all the facts.

If she had the curiosity, she could have come, and realized that Harry wasn't "cheating" on her. Instead, she chose to become angry, and stalk off.

Cho was older, a clever Ravenclaw, who could have added to Rita's article. Giving an account of Cedric would have lent poignancy and loss to the story.

haymoni - Oct 18, 2004 4:42 pm (#191 of 391)

Hermione could have told Harry WHY she wanted to see him. Chances are it would have given Harry something more to talk about with Cho.

Funny - if Cho hadn't have run off, she would have heard Harry's report to Rita and would have had a number of her questions answered.

Alas, earwax!

Paulus Maximus - Oct 18, 2004 8:04 pm (#192 of 391)

"Hermione could have told Harry WHY she wanted to see him."

Indeed. It makes me wonder... why didn't she?

Did she not trust Harry?

Or, given how much the Daily Prophet had libeled Harry, did Hermione assume that Harry would have nothing to do with Rita if he knew about the meeting in advance?

KWeldon - Oct 19, 2004 5:42 am (#193 of 391)

Yes, I am going to blame Hermione in part. Cho, as most any sixteen year old girl, would have naturally been insecure about Harry's close relationship with Hermione. Hermione is savvy enough to know that she should have warned Harry to play it down, or, God forbid, actually inform him why she needed him to come. She didn't need to say that Rita was going to be there even, just that it pertained to getting his story out.

Gemini Wolfie - Oct 23, 2004 2:53 am (#194 of 391)

Seems to me that most men know or have known in their life a girl like Cho. A girl who is extremely attractive, one who cries on a moments notice, gets mad over small transgressions and prefers to be around the man of the hour.

Actually, seems to me that most people THINK they know or have known a girl like Cho. How often do we truly get a chance to know and understand a person vs. how often we think we know and understand a person? I really don't know what Cho was feeling or how Cho was feeling or what she was thinking so I'm not going to judge her in a bad way. There's every indication that her "men of the hour" were the ones who wanted Cho. And are we to argue that the two men of the hour aren't worthy dates?

I don't blame Hermione, but conspiracy theories aside, it was a bit inconsiderate or selfish on her part. Yes I know what she's doing is good for Harry and I know that Hogsmeade is a rare opportunity to get together in private outside of school but c’mon! Valentine's Day? If I was alone and I've spent every Valentine's with my best guy or girl friend and he/she tells me he has a date one year, I would probably have the greatest grin on my face and want to hear all the juicy details. Unless I really want to ruin it for him or hate the girl, I would not do anything to get in the way. Indeed, Harry should have said things differently, but if your date (on your first date, Valentine's or anniversary) told you that he/she has to meet another guy/girl almost as soon as you sat down how would you react? If this isn't good enough reason for you to get mad at your date then I don't know if there's ever a good reason.

Seriously, we know so little of Cho. Why do we have to say these nasty things about her? Yes she was clearly not herself but for a very good reason. Is it not okay for someone to take more than half a year to get over a friend that you've grown close to?

Gerald Costales - Oct 31, 2004 7:51 am (#195 of 391)

For all the Cho bashing, I think Cho is a good girl not just a Social Climber, etc.

How would anyone of us react to the death of a friend or classmate? Every year while I was in high school it seemed either a student or parent of a student died. You reacted differently to the deaths depending on how much you knew the person involved.

One person had his father murdered during the Summer, a jealous ex-boyfriend of the woman he was dating shot him. I remember telling this student, I was sorry that his father died. We rode a bus together to school, this student was loud and a braggart and the truth was he was a jerk whether an orphan or not. My relationship to him didn't change because of the death of his father. Another classmate in my year, father died in a work accident. I felt sorry but didn't say anything to him because I really didn't know him that well.

One student was hit by a car while on his bike horsing around. The accident was witnessed by his neighbor who was a classmate of mine. Again, I didn't seek out either his older brother or his mom who worked in the school office to say I was sorry though. This was more poignant, the death of a student not a parent. It was tragic, he was only a Freshman and we were Sophomores.

During a soccer game at our school, a player from a visiting school collapsed and died. I went to an all boy Catholic high school. It was tragic but most students thought it amusing. I can't remember laughing or joking about like the most of the others. It didn't impact us since that poor boy attended another school. Looking back we were immature and insensitive to that soccer player's death.

But, we weren't always jerks. The death of a beloved priest, who died on the operating table hit all of us the most. We all recalled his last mass, when every time he spoke during his homily the student body roared so he couldn't be heard above our shots of affection. It was genuine emotion directed at a good man who devoted his last days collecting money for the Missions. Father Tom just smiled and some how finished his homily. My memory of this priest was watching him jogging briskly to school from the seminary that was next to the campus and just before entering an opening in the fence slowing to a quick walk to exercise his weak heart that need an operation to work properly. (It makes me sad that the worst priests are currently getting the headlines while the good ones, like Father Tom, are never mentioned.)

A close friend's father died when he was in Elementary school. He told us how people who wouldn't have given him the time of day while his father was alive suddenly began inviting him to birthday parties, etc. after his father's death. False sympathy doesn't help the person grieving.

Cho is just a girl whose boyfriend was murdered. And Harry was Cho's first relationship after that murder. Harry and Cho both made intentional and unintentional mistakes in the relationship. And both are young and immature.

I still think the fact that Cho can summon a Patronus is important. The DA will exist in book 6 and that Cho will still be a member of the DA. Some relationship will exist between Harry and Cho. And how they relate to each other probably won't have an impact on the central storyline. ;-( GC

Doxy Bowtruckle - Nov 1, 2004 6:15 am (#196 of 391)

Clearly no one knew Cedric like the way Cho claims she did. She is trying to ask for support from Harry, but as you have described above Gerald, people have ways of dealing with a death, especially of some one who was a rival to harry, on and off the Quidditch pitch.

DoxyB

MickeyCee3948 - Nov 10, 2004 7:49 am (#197 of 391)

Can someone explain something to me. Cho starts out with Cedric - her year. Then she goes to Harry a year younger than her. Then finally in OotP at the end she is going with Michael a year younger then Harry. Sounds to me like Colin had better talk to his brother Dennis - he could be next.

Mikie

Czarina II - Nov 10, 2004 8:46 am (#198 of 391)

Isn't Michael in Harry's year also? Somehow, I was under that impression. Maybe Cho Chang is born toward the end of the cut-off point? In that case, she wouldn't be much older. For example, I'm only two months older than the actors who play Fred and George in the films, but under our school system, I would be a grade above them. Do we know Cho's birthday?

Paulus Maximus - Nov 10, 2004 9:35 am (#199 of 391)

Dennis is three years younger than Harry...

StareyedSlytherin - Nov 10, 2004 10:25 am (#200 of 391)

They do seem to keep getting younger, don't they? I don't think Dennis has anything to worry about though, in high school it's not all that uncommon for a girl to go out with a boy a year or two younger than herself.

Cho's had a bad experience in the past, and she's just had a bad break up [and a pretty rocky relationship, period] with Harry. She's obviously still pretty messed up over her past relationship and probably in a position where she can be easily led or manipulated by guys, rather than being the heartless manipulator herself. She needs a shoulder to cry on, and is probably more willing than before to accept whatever shoulder comes along. Not to say that Michael might not be a worthy replacement for Harry, but to me he does seem a little self-absorbed, and she is popular and pretty after all.

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Gemini Wolfie - Nov 12, 2004 12:32 am (#201 of 391)

I would just like to again point out that there is no proof that Corner is indeed Cho's boyfriend. A beautiful girl can't help it when a fool decides to follow her around.

Paulus Maximus - Nov 12, 2004 12:51 pm (#202 of 391)

Can't we trust Hermione's and Ginny's word?

TomProffitt - Nov 12, 2004 2:18 pm (#203 of 391)

In this instance probably, but this is a subject where sometimes a little obfuscation is beneficial.

Gemini Wolfie - Nov 14, 2004 10:48 pm (#204 of 391)

Can't a guy and a girl just be friends? I'm sure there are Hogwarts students who are just sure that Harry and Hermione are a couple. There are guys that stick around and are allowed to stick around after being rejected. It is quite plausible that Cho had made things clear to Corner that he had no chance but really don't want to lose him as a friend.

Hermione and Krum still write to each other even though their current status is suppose to be just friends. And I'll bet that Krum wouldn't stop writing even if Hermione had rejected his advances at this time. When you have a crush on someone, you tend to hold onto even the slightest of possibilities.

Professor Dumbledore - Nov 15, 2004 12:25 pm (#205 of 391)

Now that Cho has broken up with Harry and has Corner, I don't think she'll be a major part of the plot in future books. As for harry, there's probably another girl in the school that he never noticed before (and has never been mentioned in any books either), and he might end up liking her.

Gerald Costales - Nov 19, 2004 6:23 am (#206 of 391)

The trouble with Cho is that people can’t look beyond the Cute Popular Girl label that many people have placed on her. Cute Popular Girls are certainly as insecure and make errors in judgment, etc., just like the rest of the less cute and less popular characters in the Book. Many of the comments directed at Cho are because of her failed relationship with Harry. Many comments are about her loyalty to Marietta (Zit-faced) Edgecombe. We should look at Cho beyond the Cute Popular Girl on campus label.

But, now the current topic is after Cedric was _murdered_, that Cho is seducing, manipulating, exploiting, etc. poor younger boys like Harry and *gasp* Michael Corner. Come on, both Harry and Michael probably wanted to get Cho’s attention, after all Cho is the Cute Popular Girl on campus. (Cedric was the BMC, Big Man on Campus before his _murder_.) Harry is only approximately a year younger than Cho. Are people scandalized because of the age gap between Bill Weasley and Fleur? But, it has always been acceptable for Older men to date and marry Younger women (Michael Douglas & Catherine Zeta-Jones, Tony Randall & his wife, etc., both those men are old enough to be their wives? fathers. Michael Douglas is in fact older that Catherine’s father! Randall was old enough to be his wife’s grandfather!). The old Double Standard is being used against Cho.

Can we put the total blame for the failure of the Harry & Cho relationship on either Harry or Cho? But, isn’t Cho the attention seeking Cute Popular girl, the arm candy of first Cedric and then Harry. Come on, Cho didn’t need Cedric or Harry to get attention. Pretty girls attract boys on their own. (Look at Fleur for sample.) I think Cho must be insecure, what else could explain her loyalty to Marietta (the Traitor). Before there was Cedric or Harry, Marietta was the loyal friend and possibly the best or only true friend Cho had. And by the way, Cedric her last boyfriend was _murdered_. If a murder wouldn’t make you insecure than I don’t know what would. (Even Hermione comments on Cho crying all year in the girl’s restroom.)

What other flaws can we place on Cho? She is foreign, isn’t she. But, no one as labeled Cho as a Dragon Lady, that seductive Oriental femme fatale of so many novels. (OH! OH! He’s playing the race card!) Maybe not consciously. And we can’t ignore the fact that Cho is Oriental. (Just like the Weasley’s are all Redheads.) We all have some bias some good and some bad. Give Cho a break, she is as mixed up and flawed as any other students currently at Hogwarts.

The one fact that people ignore is that Cho summoned a _Full Bodied Patronus_! (So, it was a cute Swan. Hermione’s Patronus was a silly Otter!) The Cho & Harry thing is past history. And you can question Cho’s loyalty to Marietta (the Demon Seed). But, let’s face facts, only three people in the DA can summon a Patronus - Harry, Hermione and Cho. If the War to come is as bad as expected, can we ignore Cho’s magical ability and her possible future importance in the next two Books? ;-) GC

Steve Newton - Nov 19, 2004 6:33 am (#207 of 391)

GC, as much as I despise Marietta I think that Cho's sticking with Marietta is a sign of strength. Friends only need someone to stick with them when things are going bad.

Is Cho foreign? I have seen no indication that she is not a full, native born Britisher. Oriental ancestry.

wwtMask - Nov 19, 2004 9:15 am (#208 of 391)

I always took her to be British by upbringing with Asian (most likely Chinese) ancestry.

I've never been one to totally blame Cho for the way her relationship with Harry turned out. They both contributed to the demise in their own way and circumstances exacerbated the situation. Cho is not some kind of succubus or evil girl, she's just a girl who was sorting through many issues with regards to Harry, and she's too young to really know how to deal with it all properly.

hopping hessian - Nov 19, 2004 1:22 pm (#209 of 391)

I agree. I don't think that there's anything wrong with Cho, I think one of the reasons that she and Harry didn't work out is that Harry had a crush on her for two years without any idea what she was really like.

Gerald Costales - Nov 19, 2004 9:43 pm (#210 of 391)

"...I despise Marietta I think that Cho's sticking with Marietta is a sign of strength." Steve Newton

I don't despise Marietta, but I agree Cho's loyalty to Marietta is a sign of strength. Like Ben Franklin said, "A friend in need is a friend indeed."

"I always took her to be British by upbringing with Asian (most likely Chinese) ancestry." wwtMask

You're probably right wwtMask. But, my guess would be Cho is of Korean ancestry. My point was that most of the comments directed at Cho focus on her negative qualities and weaknesses. Many people are ignoring any positive qualities and strengths. Cho is more than a cute popular girl. Cho is still dealing with the death of Cedric and was probably not ready for a romantic relationship with Harry. The Michael Corner thing could be platonic with Michael offering a shoulder to cry on and a sympathetic ear. Something Harry really didn't give to Cho.

Whether a pretty Swan or frolicking Otter Patronus, Cho must have some magical ability. Again, only Cho and Hermione learned to summon a Patronus during the DA meetings. And finally, when the War really is joined, Cho may prove to be stronger than expected. Both Neville and Luna proved their metal when tested in the Battle at the Ministry of Magic. And who would have predicted that either Neville or Luna would have been that good or brave in the thick of battle. (Luna really didn't show much, there aren't any descriptions of Luna in battle. But, Luna was certainly brave.)

I really don't want the Cho thread to be just a quasi-ship thread. I think it's time to move past the Harry & Cho thing or a Michael Corner & Cho thing. (Besides, I REALLY hate posting in the ship thread.)

What role will Cho have in Books 6 and & 7? I wouldn't be surprised if Cho fools all of us and becomes more important. Scabbers proved to be more than a pet rat. And hopefully Cho may prove to be more than Harry's failed first crush. ;-) GC

MickeyCee3948 - Nov 20, 2004 9:10 am (#211 of 391)

I believe that Cho will be very influential in the last two books.

Yes, she is sticking with Marietta and that is as it should be. She has said she more or less forced Marietta to come to the first DA meetings so she is partially responsible for putting Marietta in a position where she could turn on the DA.

I don't believe that Cho will hold a grudge against Harry or Hermione. She will understand that she and the rest of the DA learned quite a bit from Harry that might eventually save their lives. I believe that the story of the battle of the MOM will have come out and will justify a lot to the Ravenclaws.

After all the students are going to have a little more on their minds in HBP than zits and their regular studies. Add to that Cho will be in her last year and should be worried about her future. I think she will be important. Mikie

StareyedSlytherin - Nov 30, 2004 6:16 pm (#212 of 391)

She has said she more or less forced Marietta to come to the first DA meetings so she is partially responsible for putting Marietta in a position where she could turn on the DA.

This is true and who's to say that an issue of her feeling guilty for that won't come up later on. She did try to apologise to Harry for Marietta's actions, if I remember their conversation correctly. Of course they would probably not feel comfortable with each other right now, so she might be out of the picture for a while. But I believe that she'll resurface later on as an important character, and hopefully we'll learn a little more of her point of view. I think the fact that she's one of the few who can pull off a patronus will prove important.

Gerald Costales - Nov 30, 2004 7:22 pm (#213 of 391)

Some people on the Marietta E. thread have suggested that Cho used Marietta. I'm not a conspiracy theorist and don't buy into those theories. (Why?)

Cho is still loyal to Marietta for some reason. And hopefully in Book 6, why Cho is so loyal to Marietta and Marietta's reasons for betraying the DA will be revealed. I don't think there a relationship between Cho's loyalty and Marietta's betrayal but you never know. (Who would have guessed Harry was a Parseltongue when you read the Boa at the Zoo scene in Book 1. It's those little hints and clues that drive you crazy and jump out at you when you reread the Books.) My guess is that Cho feels guilty for talking Marietta into joining the DA when Marietta really didn't want to join.

Cho is still a Seeker, so if Quidditch is a part of Book 6 then there should be some interaction between Harry and Cho on the Quidditch Field at the least.

Harry and Dudley were jumped by Dementors at the start of Book 5. What if Cho has to defend herself in Book 6 and needs to summon a Patronus? Remember when Cho was playing with her Swan Patronus, Harry said it's a lot more difficult to summon a Patronus in the heat of a battle. ;-) GC

Steve Newton - Dec 1, 2004 7:10 am (#214 of 391)

On one of the last pages of OOTP Cho walks past the compartment that the trio is in and then there is the switch to the capture of a pawn in a chess game. I think that this means that Cho is the pawn removed from the game. I don't think that we will see much more of her.

Of course, it could mean Marietta.

Paulus Maximus - Dec 1, 2004 12:53 pm (#215 of 391)

Harry's and Cho's date reminded me a bit of my own experience... After my girlfriend broke up with me, it pained me to even look at her for months afterwards. Of course, I still try to avoid her, two years after the breakup.

I don't think it will be so easy for Harry, if Cho knows that the Ministry had been hoodwinked and Harry was right all along. She'll doubtless try to apologise, just like before...

On the other hand, she must have known it before the train home (I think everyone did, if Dumbledore did indeed do an end-of-year speech), and she still ignored Harry.

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 1, 2004 1:23 pm (#216 of 391)

Yes but Harry was in the presence of both Ron and Hermione and Cho would not have tried to talk to him under those circumstances regardless.

Mikie

StareyedSlytherin - Dec 4, 2004 11:26 am (#217 of 391)

I think she did take notice of Harry, but just walked on. Harry seems to be past her now anyway, I think us readers reacted more to that train scene than Harry did, as he realised that he had too much to deal with now anyways to worry about trying to keep a peaceful relationship with Cho. He'll move on and try to deal with those problems, and I think that if anyone isn't quite over the relationship, it will more likely be Cho than Harry. He's probably not going to be thinking about her all that much over the summer, not with everything else that happened at the end of the school year.

I don't think she has all that much time left in the spotlight, but I do think that Marietta might still have a role to play, and I also think that we will get to see how Cho does with that patronus, so I'm almost sure she'll be back.

hells456 - Dec 8, 2004 4:42 pm (#218 of 391)

GC, you said that only Cho and Hermione produced patronuses, where does it say that? From my (bad) memory I thought that theirs were the only ones mentioned, I did not realise that they were the only ones.

I agree that patronuses and Dementors will continue to feature, especially if they really are allies of LV, or if they happen to meet a lethifold.

Gerald Costales - Dec 11, 2004 7:35 am (#219 of 391)

... They had finally started work on Patronuses, which everyone had been very keen to practice, though Harry kept reminding them, producing a Patronus in the middle of a brightly lit classroom when they were not under threat was very different to producing it when confronted by something like a Dementor.

... “Oh, don’t be such a killjoy," said Cho brightly, watching her silvery swan-shaped Patronus soar around the Room of Requirement during their last lesson before Easter. "They're so pretty!"

... “They're not supposed to be pretty, they're supposed to protect you," said Harry patiently. ?what we really need is a Boggart or something; that’s how I learned, I had to conjure a Patronus while the Boggart was pretending to be a Dementor --”

... “But that would be really scary!? said Lavender, who was shooting puffs of silver vapor out of the end of her wand. ?And I still -- can’t -- do it!? she added angrily.

... Neville was having trouble too. His face was screwed up in concentration, but only feeble wisps of silver smoke issued from his wand tip,

... “You’ve got to think of something happy,? Harry reminded him.

... “I’m trying,? said Neville miserably, who was trying so hard his round face was actually shining with sweat.

... “Harry, I think I’m doing it!? yelled Seamus, who had been brought along to his first ever D.A, meeting by Dean. ?Look -- ah -- it’s gone... But it was definitely something hairy, Harry!?

... Hermione’s Patronus, a shining silver otter, was gamboling around her.

(page 606 & 607, GoF, American hardback edition)

As far as I remember this is the only example of Patronuses being produced by anyone but Harry. Also, JKR has revealed Dumbledore’s Patronus is a phoenix. But, Dumbledore producing his Patronus hasn’t been in the Books so far. ;-) GC

Saralinda Again - Dec 11, 2004 7:34 pm (#220 of 391)

If Dumbledore's patronus hasn't appeared yet, what did he use to drive away the Dementors pursuing Harry at the Quidditch game? I believe that it was described as a "silvery something" or words to that effect (books are upstairs and I'm down. What a lazy-bones!). I had presumed that was JKR's way of describing it without spoiling the surprise when we learn about the spell with Harry.

Gerald Costales - Dec 12, 2004 8:38 am (#221 of 391)

... "Oh!" screamed Cho, pointing.

... Distracted, Harry looked down.

... Three Dementors, three tall, black, hooded Dementors, were looking up at him.

... He didn't stop to think. Plunging a hand down the neck of his robes, he whipped out his wand and roared, "Expecto Patronum!"

... Something silver-white something enormous, erupted from the end of his wand...

(page 262, PoA, American hardback edition)

It was Harry that drove away the Dementors not Dumbledore. And they weren't really Dementors. ;-) GC

... "The Dementors didn't affect me at all!" Harry said excitedly. "I didn't feel a thing!"

... "That would be because they -- er -- weren't Dementors," said Professor Lupin. "Come and see --"

... He led Harry out of the crowd until they were able to see the edge of the field.

… You gave Mr. Malfoy quire a fright," said Lupin.

... Harry stared. Lying in a crumpled heap on the ground were Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, and Marcus Flint, the Slytherin team Captain, all struggling to remove themselves from long, black, hooded robes...

(page 263, PoA, American hardback edition)

Dr Filibuster - Dec 12, 2004 10:06 am (#222 of 391)

Gerald, go back to Chapter 9 "Grim Defeat". It's the Hufflepuff match;

"Dumbledore was really angry", Hermione said in a quaking voice. "I've ever seen him like that before. He ran onto the pitch as you fell, waved his wand, and you sort of slowed down before you hit the ground. Then he whirled his wand at the Dementors. Shot silver stuff at them. They left the stadium straight away....he was furious they'd come into the grounds, we heard him-"

Gerald Costales - Dec 13, 2004 6:20 am (#223 of 391)

"Shot silver stuff at them."

Not clear it was a Patronus, but you're probably right. Also, if it was Dumbledore's Patronus it hadn't been revealed to be a Phoenix.

We're all such Potter Geeks. Well, I'll admit I'm one. Excellent catch. Well done, Dr. Fillibuster. If only we had a release date for Book 6. Alas, earwax. ;-) GC

Saralinda Again - Dec 13, 2004 9:05 am (#224 of 391)

GC: "Also, if it was Dumbledore's Patronus it hadn't been revealed to be a Phoenix."

That was such a cool and graceful way to indicate a patronus without letting us know what it was or what it looked like.

The words come from Hermione, who at the time is justifiably upset and distracted. She was paying a whole lot more attention to Harry and the danger he was in than she was to DD and his actions.

In hindsight we can all say, "Hmm, that must have been a patronus DD cast," but JKR gives us so little information when it first appears that when Remus and Harry work on them, we're entranced.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled Cho Chang programming ...

Gerald Costales - Dec 17, 2004 6:05 am (#225 of 391)

It will be interesting to see who Cho is paired up with in Book 6. I don't picture Michael Corner as a long time beau.

And there should be more dating happening with Harry, Ron, Hermione, etc. all in their sixth year.

Also, who would have guessed that Bill Weasley would be involved with Fleur. So how about a Neville and Cho pairing (the Odd Couple). (JKR just revealed that Neville and Luna aren't a couple. And I would have bet money on Neville and Luna pairing up.) And of course Malfoy and Marietta (the Evil Couple). ;-) GC

PS And there's always Dobby and Winky (the House-Elf Couple). :-) GC

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StareyedSlytherin - Dec 20, 2004 12:35 am (#226 of 391)

I would have bet money on Neville/Luna too! That was kind of a let down for me LOL!

Gerald Costales - Dec 22, 2004 7:16 am (#227 of 391)

With the release of info. by JKR of the death of character in Book 6, I'd think that Cho would be a good possibility. Cho's not really a major character but a big enough character to make a big splash if killed. I could easily picture Cho trying to cast her Patronus and failing thus falling victim to a AK. Then Cho and Cedric would be reunited (a little Gothic, I'd admit).

You know the Junior Death Eaters, Draco, Crabbe, Goyle, etc. will be challenging the DA at Hogwarts. I could even see Marietta defecting to the Slytherins to get back at Hermione. ;-) GC

PS What if Arabella Figg had married Sir Isaac Newton. Wouldn't that have made Arabella, Mrs. Arabella Figg-Newton. ;-) GC

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 22, 2004 11:35 am (#228 of 391)

A Patronus would not protect her from an AK anyway. They only work on Dementors.

Mikie

Paulus Maximus - Dec 22, 2004 6:54 pm (#229 of 391)

She'd probably try Expelliarmus rather than a Patronus.

Harry DID say that Expelliarmus saved his life, without mentioning the little detail about his and Voldie's wands having similar cores...

Gerald Costales - Dec 22, 2004 9:00 pm (#230 of 391)

"A Patronus would not protect her from an AK anyway. They only work on Dementors." Mikie

A Patronus can be used on other things than a Dementor. Mikie, read the following excerpts -

Ministry of Magic (M.O.M.) Classification

XXXXX Known Wizard killer / impossible to train or domesticate

(page xxii, Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them)

LETHIFOLD (also known as Living Shroud)

M.O.M. Classification XXXXX

... a Lethifold attack in 1782 ...

... The thing (Lethifold) attempted to smother me, sliding inexorably up my face, over my mouth and nostrils, but I stilled I struggled, feeling it wrapping its coldness about me all the while. Unable to cry for assistance, I groped for my wand. Now dizzy as the thing sealed itself about my face, incapable of drawing breathe, I concentrated with all my might upon the Stupefying Charm and then - as that failed to subdue the creature, though blasting a hole in my bedroom door - upon the Impediment Hex, which likewise availed me naught. Still struggling madly, I rolled sideways and fell heavily to the floor, now entirely wrapped in the Lethifold.

... I knew that I was about to lose consciousness completely as I suffocated. Desperately, I mustered up my last reserve of energy. Pointing my wand away from myself in the deadly folds of the creature, summoning the memory of the day I had been voted President of the local Gobstones Club, I performed the Patronus Charm.

... Almost at once I felt fresh air upon my face. I looked up to see that deadly shadow being thrown into the air upon the horns of my Patronus. It flew across the room and slithered swiftly out of sight.

(pages 25, 26, & 27, Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them)

Mikie, you’re right about the AK, but I think Cho may freeze or fail somehow if she really needed to summon a Patronus in a pressure situation. ;-) GC

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 23, 2004 6:58 am (#231 of 391)

Agreed Gerald, just got my copy of Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them for Christmas and haven't finished reading it yet. Thanks for the clarification.

I also agree that Cho would probably fail if a real need arose.

Mikie

Ms Amanda - Dec 29, 2004 2:14 pm (#232 of 391)

Why would Cho fail? Has she failed at some time in the past? She's a Quidditch player, so she's used to performing under pressure.

I think, if Cho would die, it would be because she's taking a risk, trying to get revenge for Cedric. I think her death then would give some help to the storyline, warning Harry not to be rash about getting revenge for Sirius.

Hermy-own - Dec 30, 2004 6:12 am (#233 of 391)

You make a good point, Ms Amanda. I'm sure any Seeker would tell you that you really need your wits about you during a Quidditch match. And the fact that Cho was chosen as Seeker, ahead of the older members of her house, suggests she does carry a cool head, as well as, of course, the other talents a gifted Seeker would necessarily possess.

"I think her death then would give some help to the storyline, warning Harry not to be rash about getting revenge for Sirius."--Ms Amanda

Harry is prone to acting on impulse, something many would call a strength. However, we've seen him time and time again make ill-considered decisions that do more harm than good. A violent response to avenge Sirius' death is not what is needed. Nothing good would come of it, and he'd probably end up putting himself, and those close to him, in danger, again!

Before Harry can defeat Lord Voldemort, he'll have to realise that he can't afford to let his emotions consume him. I think your suggestion is brilliant, Amanda; it would certainly prompt Harry to realise that rash decisions can have unfavorable, or even tragic, consequences.

Hermy.

Gerald Costales - Dec 30, 2004 9:43 am (#234 of 391)

"Before Harry can defeat Lord Voldemort, he'll have to realise that he can't afford to let his emotions consume him. I think your suggestion is brilliant, Amanda; it would certainly prompt Harry to realise that rash decisions can have unfavorable, or even tragic, consequences." Hermy

Well, said, Hermy.

I don't think Cho is weak even though I posted this -

"… situation." ;-) GC

I based that comment on what Harry said,

"… They had finally started work on Patronuses, which everyone had been very keen to practice, though Harry kept reminding them, producing a Patronus in the middle of a brightly lit classroom when they were not under threat was very different to producing it when confronted by something like a Dementor."

(page 606, GoF, American hardback edition)

Cho should perform well in the real situation. I was impressed and surprised with Neville at the MoM. Yes, Cho with her athletic and magical abilities would have performed better than Neville. And even Hermione, an excellent Witch, was sub par at the MoM. Hermione could have easily been killed.

If Cho was at the MoM, she probably would have performed better than even Hermione. I'd take a "Swan" over an "Otter" any day. I can't imagine an "Otter" Patronus being much good in a fight. At least a "Swan" could peck your eyes out like Fawkes pecked out the Basilisk's eyes in the CoS.

I have been a strong supporter of Cho being an excellent character and that Cho will have a bigger role than expect in Book 6. Only time will tell. July should answer most of our questions and concerns about Cho. Happy New Year. Everyone. ;-) GC

Mikie, we could still be right, though. Cho could freeze or fail. Again, if not for an unspoken spell Hermione could have died at the MoM and who would have expected Sirius to fall through the veil.

Hermy & Ms. Amanda you never know. (Mikie hope you don't think I'm wavering, but both Hermy & Ms. Amanda made excellent points about Cho & Harry that I agreed with.) Gotta jet. See you next year. ;-) GC

MickeyCee3948 - Dec 30, 2004 5:49 pm (#235 of 391)

No I'm not worrying about you wavering GC. I have changed my opinion on so many threads that I feel like a yo-yo. That is what I love about the Lexicon. We have so many well educated members who can dissect most of our comments and show points for and against all of them. I just "LOVE THIS PLACE."

Mikie

StareyedSlytherin - Jan 10, 2005 11:02 pm (#236 of 391)

I've thought for a while that she's probably going to come face to face with some sort of Voldy~related danger and try to get revenge for Cedric, and that it would probably be something done at a moment's notice, without much thought. Like producing a patronus in a situation where it would be useless against the enemy, or where it would somehow not have much of an effect. It is a very useful bit of magic, and the most anticipated lesson of the DA class, and Harry did warn them that the effect might not be quite the same in the heat of battle. She's never experienced a serious Dementor attack or anything else she'd shoot a patronus at for protection, so I could see her misjudging either herself or the circumstances, or both, with that spell. Remember, Harry practiced on a Boggart pretending to be a Dementor, and with all the effects a Dementor would have on the person being attacked, back in his third year, so he's had plenty of time to practice and plenty of opportunities since to use what he's learned. If I remember correctly, there wasn't mention of a Boggart being used in the DA lesson, so Cho practiced possibly only for the one lesson, on thin air. I could be wrong there, but that doesn't sound to me like much of a lesson. Besides that, she was taught by a fellow student who [pardon me for saying] makes escaping Voldemort look easy. She probably wouldn't know exactly what she was getting into and could easily mess herself up with a wrong move in a battle, and if it's a matter of life and death, that could be deadly.

*edit* Wow, that was a long comment!!

Gerald Costales - Jan 17, 2005 2:02 pm (#237 of 391)

"... come face to face with some sort of Voldy~related danger and try to get revenge for Cedric, and that it would probably be something done at a moment's notice, without much thought. Like producing a patronus in a situation where it would be useless against the enemy, or where it would somehow not have much of an effect." StareyedSlytherin

I think Cho may want some type of revenge for Cedric's death. Also, a Patronus can't be effective in all situations. But, Cho shouldn't be underestimated. I don't see Cho and Harry as a couple. But, I feel Cho has some place in Book 6. And, I've thought Harry may need help with the DA.

I believe both Cho and Hermione could help train DA members and new members in Book 6. And with Bill and Fleur seeing each other, who’s to say Cho and Charlie couldn't pair up. Both Cho and Charlie have Quidditch in common. I wouldn't be surprised if Charlie returns to the UK just like Bill did from Egypt. ;-) GC

Gerald Costales - Feb 10, 2005 6:12 am (#238 of 391)

Has there been any discussion about what career that Cho may be heading into? Cho is entering her 7th year. What will Cho do when she leaves Hogwarts?

My feeling is that Cho would make an excellent grief counselor or she could go into some job that helps her with the death of Cedric. But, Cho would still needs to deal with the death of Cedric to be a proper grief counselor. I see Cho having a career and eventually marrying.

Marietta is another issue. After a summer of reflection will Cho still be Marietta's supportive friend? I see Cho still in the DA and possibly being a trainer along with Hermione. Both Cho and Hermione were Harry's best students, by the ability of producing their Swan and Otter Patronuses respectively, and I expect a big demand in students wanting to join the DA. Especially with the news that Voldemort is back. If you were a Hogwarts' student and the only person that has defeat Voldemort, besides Dumbledore, has a club on campus to prepare you to fight the Dark Arts - Wouldn't you want to join the DA?

With some faculty advice and support, most school clubs have some faculty advisor, the DA could be a truly great club. ;-) GC

PS Not that it isn't a great club. Besides it would be nice to see Cho come to terms with Cedric's death and move on. I think Cho has been misunderstood just because she rejected Harry and supported her "best" friend Marietta. ;-) GC

PPS Don't even get me started on Marietta. *That dirty traitor* Did I say that out loud. Oops. ;-) GC

dizzy lizzy - Feb 10, 2005 10:39 pm (#239 of 391)

But, Cho would still needs to deal with the death of Cedric to be a proper grief counselor. - GC

My guess is that once the "whole School knows" about the fight the sextet were in and the result, Cho may then gain a better understanding on Cedric's death. Cedric's death was needless but until the battle at the MoM, it was not able to be placed widely in context by all the school students who cared/grieved over his death.

Perhaps once she see's his death as a needless part of Wizarding War 2, she may be able to let out her anger and pain and grieve more easily.

Thanks for the above comment GC, it gave me impetus to form my comments a lot more clearly and be able to post them.

Lizzy

Steve Newton - Mar 8, 2005 7:23 am (#240 of 391)

In POA, before the Quidditch game, Wood announces that Cho will be the opposing seeker. He says that he wasn't sure that she would play against Gryffindor because she was recovering from injuries. I can't think of any other mention of her injuries. Am I missing something? Is it too trivial for words?

Snuffles - Mar 8, 2005 7:38 am (#241 of 391)

Well we know she is an emotional person so it was probably a shoulder injury carrying all those tissues around in her bag!!

Ladybug220 - Mar 8, 2005 8:17 am (#242 of 391)

Steve Newton : In POA, before the Quidditch game, Wood announces that Cho will be the opposing seeker. He says that he wasn't sure that she would play against Gryffindor because she was recovering from injuries. I can't think of any other mention of her injuries. Am I missing something? Is it too trivial for words?

I wonder if it was just a way to introduce her so that Harry would notice her more in the line-up prior to the game starting.

Steve Newton - Mar 8, 2005 11:01 am (#243 of 391)

Probably, or just a reminder that Quidditch is a tough game. Or that Cho came back after an injury, showing perseverance and all that. (Hinting that she comes back to the DA, perhaps.) I'm getting carried away.

StareyedSlytherin - Mar 25, 2005 5:46 am (#244 of 391)

The idea of her coming back to the DA is interesting, and I don't disagree with it, but she and Harry had kind of a messy breakup and she's been jealous of Hermione all along, so I don't see her teaming up with the two of them for anything just yet. She'll need to take a little time away from them and come to terms with things before she comes back to help the DA if at all, or things could get out of hand. She's pretty emotional, so I'm not sure that she would want to rejoin them just yet even if she decided to drop Marietta as a friend after thinking it over.

I do think and hope that we will see her and Harry talk things over and make up eventually though. They might not be right for each other as a couple, but that shouldn't stop them from being friends or working together in the future. I think her only real problem was that she just didn't understand the seriousness of things the way Hermione or Harry did, which is why she chose to remain loyal to her "best friend" Marietta even after what Marietta did, rather than siding with the DA on that.

Also, I wasn't trying to underestimate Cho in my last post. I think that she has proven herself to be very powerful from what we've seen of her in the DA, and if anything, a scene like that would serve to show the seriousness and danger of the fight against Voldy rather than any weaknesses that Cho has. She'd probably do some real damage before going down. If that were to happen.

Ydnam96 - Mar 25, 2005 7:54 am (#245 of 391)

I'm not sure, I think that if the Marietta thing had not happened there may have been hope for Cho remaining friends with Harry and the gang...but she seemed pretty upset about what happened to her friend. That may take a long time to get over, if she ever does.

Puck - Mar 25, 2005 4:52 pm (#246 of 391)

I don't think Cho has always been over-emotional. It seems this is a reaction to Cedric's death, the suddenness and senselessness of it. She is confused, angry, frustrated, all emotions which can result in tears. I think she will be better able to handle things with more time to adjust. She may have liked Harry, but being with him make her think of Cedric- it was too much. I doubt she and Harry will talk things out -more likely go on with things like it never happened.

Jak Frank Mar 28, 2005 8:29 pm (#247 of 391)

If Cho never makes an appearance again, it will be too soon.

Gerald Costales - Mar 30, 2005 6:47 am (#248 of 391)

"If Cho never makes an appearance again, it will be too soon." Jak Frank

I don’t see Cho as overly emotional. How would any of us have dealt with the sudden senseless MURDER of their boyfriend or girlfriend? Some see Cho’s loyalty as a character flaw. But, without any back story - can we really be critical of Cho’s need to support a friend.

Loyalty is certainly important. Wormtail’s betrayal of the Potters and Marietta’s betrayal of the DA have been compared but I don’t think Marietta is or was as Evil as Wormtail. Come on Marietta is still a Minor! A Minor with extremely poor judgment but again the motives for Marietta’s betrayal of the DA is still unknown.

Cho will return whether on the Quidditch field or as a minor character. Besides Cho can produce a full bodied Patronus. And Harry will need help training the flock of new DA recruits wanting to learn how to protect themselves because Voldemort is BACK. ;-) GC

PS Cho and Ron. Now, that’s a couple. Remember Ron has a thing for older girls (Fleur). ;-) GC

PPS Ron doesn’t deserve Hermione! ;-) GC

haymoni - Mar 30, 2005 7:16 pm (#249 of 391)

Does anyone else think that Cho isn't bright enough to be in Ravenclaw?

As I read the books, I have a hard time remembering that she is in that House.

I realize that not every student is the epitome of their House, but - well, I just don't see her being the brightest bulb in the bunch.

Let the Bludgers fly!!!

MickeyCee3948 - Mar 30, 2005 8:52 pm (#250 of 391)

I don't think we see enough of Cho to make that determination. She may not be one of the brightest but I trust the Sorting Hat. It seems to have made some pretty decisions about where the students go.

Mikie

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Paulus Maximus - Mar 30, 2005 9:57 pm (#251 of 391)

Saying that Cho isn't bright enough to be in Ravenclaw is like saying Neville isn't brave enough to be in Gryffindor...

Cho might not appear or think herself bright, nor Neville brave, but I think there is more to both of them than meets the eye.

Steve Newton - Mar 31, 2005 5:57 am (#252 of 391)

Cho does, on occasion ask some pretty good questions. On the BIG DATE she asks why there are no Dementors in Hogsmeade after the escape of 10 DEs. At least one other escapes me at present. She is no dummy.

Choices - Mar 31, 2005 9:22 am (#253 of 391)

I have known girls who are book smart, but don't have walking around sense - I sort of see Cho a little bit in that light.

StareyedSlytherin - Mar 31, 2005 11:09 am (#254 of 391)

I agree with that statement, Choices. If she doesn't seem bright to you, we still don't exactly know what her GPA is. I know people who have the good grades, membership in honors societies, but have done and said some pretty stupid things in the past. It doesn't mean they're any less intelligent than anyone else, just that they have more book sense than "street smarts". I never really picked that up about her though, I just got the impression that guys confuse her.. which is normal ^_^

Steve Newton - Mar 31, 2005 11:25 am (#255 of 391)

In Catch-22 there is a character called Clevenger. He is described as having lots of intelligence and no brains.

Puck - Mar 31, 2005 6:45 pm (#256 of 391)

I don't think we see her as smart because Harry hasn't paid much attention to that side of her. At first, he just saw her as sweet and pretty (okay, mostly pretty), and then he saw mainly her emotional side.

haymoni - Apr 2, 2005 5:51 pm (#257 of 391)

Yes, since the books are told from Harry's point of view, we don't really know how bright she is. I was thinking about her comment that she had never been able to Stun anything before. I guess that is not really a sign of her intelligence - maybe she is really smart but just not that talented at magic.

Is Cho a pure-blood? Are there any Quidditch players at Hogwarts that are Muggle-borns? I seem to group all the Quidditch players as pure-bloods or at least from Wizarding families. I don't know why - Harry certainly seemed to catch on quick enough even though he had lived with Muggles.

StareyedSlytherin - Apr 2, 2005 8:54 pm (#258 of 391)

I think her not having stunned anything before was probably supposed to just show how much she'd improved in the DA. She had, after all, produced a Patronus by the last meeting, and that's supposed to be some pretty tough magic... so I didn't really see it as having to do with magical ability or lack thereof, but as relating more to Umbridge's terrible teaching style.

Catherine - Apr 3, 2005 7:17 am (#259 of 391)

I don't think that Cho's professed inability to Stun anything means that she isn't good at magic.

There are many magical subjects at Hogwarts, and DADA is only one of them. She might be very good at Charms or Transfiguration, but not good at practical defense. After all, the teaching in that subject has been very inconsistent. I liken this scenario to someone who might be very adept in English and History class in the Muggle world, but has problems in math, or is a terrible athlete. (Gee, I wouldn't be talking about myself here, would I? )

I wonder if Cho's placement in Ravenclaw might be an expression of her cleverness in more "cerebral" magical subjects--possibly something like Arithmancy or Runes--than magical defense.

Finally, Cho could have just been trying to impress Harry, or making light of her own abilities when she said she hadn't been able to Stun anything before. When would she have reason to Stun anything, really? Underage wizards are not allowed to use magic at home, and we never saw Harry being taught Stunning prior to the Triwizard Tasks.

Mrs Brisbee - Apr 4, 2005 5:13 am (#260 of 391)

I agree with Catherine. Cho is probably brilliant in some subjects, but being smart doesn't necessarily mean one is good at everything. I think it was Cedric's death that has made Cho want to become good at DADA. Before that her academic priorities may have lain elsewhere. We don't even know if she signed up for NEWT level DADA, although I assume she did after Cedric's death even if it hadn't been in her original plan.

Just snooping - Apr 19, 2005 11:37 am (#261 of 391)

Luke E.A. Lockhart - That's a bit harsh. The poor girl was dating a boy (possibly even in love with him) and the guy gets murdered. I can't help thinking that she would naturally gravitate towards the last person who saw him alive, and even went so far as to risk himself to bring back his body. I don't think it's the healthiest basis for a relationship, but she's just a kid and even mature adults often have serious problems dealing with grief.

Add to that the fact that she had shown some interest in Harry before and it seems perfectly logical that she would approach Harry. Again, if I had been her friend I would have advised against it, but then her friends don't seem to be shining examples of loyalty.

Just snooping - Apr 19, 2005 11:55 am (#262 of 391)
Edited Apr 19, 2005 1:44 pm

In response to posting 136, I disagree that Moody was a bad DADA teacher. He was a bad person who had terrible plots to do evil things, but I think those kids learned A LOT in his classes.

In response to post 139 - OK, Sirius Black is NOT the most stable person to take advice from. Loyal friend, true blue, yes. But there were two or three things hanging around him that definitely made me doubt his judgment.

Grimber - Wow! Talk about hostility. Considering that Harry is detested in Books 2, 4, and 5 by most of the people most of the time, and Cho is one of the very few who is nice to him, I think "social climber" does not fit AT ALL. If anything, in Harry's case, she seems to have something for the underdog.

Eponine - Apr 19, 2005 12:11 pm (#263 of 391)

Just snooping, welcome to the forum! You'll find that we're full of interesting discussions. The forum does have an 'edit' option up to 30 minutes after you first post in order to avoid multiple posts.

I think Cho gets a lot of undeserved criticism. She did not make the best judgment call in pursuing Harry so soon after Cedric's demise, but to be fair, she had been through a traumatic experience and was looking for answers. She went to the one person she thought had those answers.

Gerald Costales - Apr 27, 2005 5:42 am (#264 of 391)

"I think Cho gets a lot of undeserved criticism. She did not make the best judgment call in pursuing Harry so soon after Cedric's demise, but to be fair, she had been through a traumatic experience and was looking for answers. She went to the one person she thought had those answers." Eponine

I agree. And I also think Cho will have more of a role than Harry's first failed crush. I don't think Cho's ability to produce a Swan Patronus should be ignored. The ability to do a Patronus Charm is no small feat. Fred and George who are able to do quite a bit of advanced magic didn't master the Patronus Charm.

What role will Cho have in Book 6? And maybe Book 7? Cho is a question mark to me. I hope Cho doesn't leave and become a Gilderoy character pretty, amusing, and forgotten. (Yes, both Gilderoy and Cho are pretty.)

Well, Cho can take the Fleur route and become Charlie's girlfriend. Both Charlie and Cho would have Quidditch in common. ;-) GC

PS Maybe Fleur & Bill and Cho & Charlie could go on a double date. Gotta jet before the Ship monitors catch me. ;-) GC

Puck - Apr 27, 2005 4:53 pm (#265 of 391)

I wonder what her happy thought was to help her produce that swan...

TomoÈ - Apr 27, 2005 6:27 pm (#266 of 391)

Maybe ... Cedric, alive again ...

MickeyCee3948 - Apr 27, 2005 7:23 pm (#267 of 391)

For all of the C/H shippers out there maybe her kiss with Harry.

Mikie

TomoÈ - Apr 27, 2005 8:11 pm (#268 of 391)

LOL! maybe. ^_^

Or maybe a world free of Voldemort (or Harry vanquishing Voldemort).

Mrs Brisbee - May 3, 2005 10:36 am (#269 of 391)

Or maybe the discovery that she is really good at DADA.

When she complimented Harry on being good teacher, she said she was never able to Stun anything before. It seems DADA wasn't her strong suit before Cedric was murdered. After he was killed her ambition was to learn to fight Lord Voldemort. It must be very satisfying to her to find she is actually good at it, and might make a difference in the fight against Voldemort.

Gerald Costales - May 5, 2005 5:52 pm (#270 of 391)

"Or maybe the discovery that she is really good at DADA." Mrs. Brisbee

That has been a point that I've been making over and over again about Cho.

..................... Cho is really good at DADA!!!!!

Only Cho and Hermione were able to do the Patronus Charm. I think it means something. Hermione doing the Charm is no surprise, but Cho.

Well, I would hope that there will be more to Cho than being Harry's failed first crush. Cho may have another role in the Series. And maybe Book 6 will reveal what that role will be. I've thought that both Cho and Hermione could help train new members to the DA. If anything else Cho and Harry will meet again on the Quidditch field. ;-) GC

PS But what about Cho's friend Marietta? Well, if the purple pimples are gone from Marietta maybe Cho will be willing to be a part of the DA again. ;-) GC

Puck - May 5, 2005 6:54 pm (#271 of 391)

Is there even still going to be a DA? I'm not so sure it will be necessary, if they have a decent DADA professor. The DA was a tool to get around Umbridge’s incompetence and denial. There just may not be a need for the club now.

Ms Amanda - May 6, 2005 3:47 am (#272 of 391)

But there are Charms clubs and such. Why would a DADA study group need to be disbanded just because the teacher is good?

Steve Newton - May 6, 2005 4:54 am (#273 of 391)

Puck, I see no way the DA will not continue. It doesn't even matter whether or not they are needed. They are good, know it, and nobody had better try to stop them from continuing. They also have a core of combat veterans and even some of the less respected members, Luna and Neville, have done well in battle.

Gerald Costales - May 14, 2005 12:35 pm (#274 of 391)

I think the DA will survive. There will be students that will want the DA to continue and Harry will still be in charge. Now, a good DADA teacher will help oversee the DA or even someone like McGonagall will help. If a Bad DADA teacher appears in Book 6 then the DA will definitely remain and flourish. The membership should grow because the DA will no longer be secret. Voldemort’s return will also expand DA membership.

There will be several Hogwarts students that will want membership in the DA just so that they can have a chance if Voldemort or the Death Eaters appear. And don't forget the Dementors are no longer guarding Azkaban. There will be more things to worry about in Book 6. And the DA will be a way for some students to handle these new worries. ;-) GC

PS Who will help train new members? Why not Cho? ;-) GC

PPS Don't forget the Death Nibblers. Malfoy and his friends will be doing their thing to cause trouble. Most definitely, expect trouble from the Slytherins in Book 6!!! ;-) GC

lemonbalm&bees - Jun 1, 2005 10:09 am (#275 of 391)

Hooray for you, star-crossed. I'm glad to hear from somebody who is closer to fifteen than most. It's like Dumbledore said: "Old men (and women) are guilty if they forget what it was to be young" Yes, she is presented somewhat as a silly little girl at times, but remember that this story if from the point of view of Harry, a fifteen year old boy. JK Rowling's characters age as naturally on paper as we do in the living world. So let's look back at ourselves at the age of fifteen and cut Cho a little slack.

(all that said, I am very glad Harry seems to be over her. Good job, you've had your first sweetheart. Milestone passes. Let's move on )

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lemonbalm&bees - Jun 1, 2005 10:11 am (#276 of 391)

"Death Nibblers" Gerald? HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Did you come up with that or is this a term that I am going to have to get used to as a forum-er?

TomoÈ - Jun 1, 2005 11:37 am (#277 of 391)

It wasn't Gerald, it was Timrew. But it is now a term that you are going to have to get used to as a forum-er. ^_~

phoenixfire - Jun 7, 2005 1:03 am (#278 of 391)

Hi, I'm not sure if anyone has discussed this yet, on JKR’s site there is a butterfly which flies across the screen. The name Cho means butterfly. The funny thing is that the butterfly changes colours. During the day its Ravenclaws colours but at night its Slytherin colours. Could this mean Cho is 'changing her colours?'.

applepie - Jun 7, 2005 6:20 am (#279 of 391)

Wow, I never noticed that, doradarling. I'll have to check that out. Good catch, interesting theory.

GryffEndora - Jun 7, 2005 8:03 am (#280 of 391)

doradarling - that's a really good find. I usually read people seeing the butterfly in the day and it turns into a moth at night but the Ravenclaw/Slytherin colors is a very interesting theory. I'll have to ponder it some more.

TomoÈ - Jun 7, 2005 10:06 am (#281 of 391)

Well, I'm not sure at all that Cho means butterfly. It has been said it's a Japanese girl name, and even if Cho effectively means butterfly in a composed word (like in Choko), chocho is the right way to say butterfly (like Cho-Cho in Madame Butterfly). Cho would be a half-baked name in Japanese, and I never saw a Japanese first name with only one syllable.

It's more likely an all Chinese name with a totally different meaning.

phoenixfire - Jun 8, 2005 12:43 pm (#282 of 391)

Hi, thank you for your reply. If you go to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and look up Cho it says it is a Japanese name meaning butterfly.

Madame Pomfrey - Jun 22, 2005 9:34 am (#283 of 391)

Someone had mentioned that theory a while back on the JKR site thread. I had liked the idea because there is something about Cho I just don’t trust. I cant put my finger on it though. In the PoA movie Malfoy sends Harry a note in the shape of a swan which is Cho's patronus. I wonder if this is foreshadowing. I’m hoping we find out more about Cho in HBP.

TomoÈ - Jun 22, 2005 6:54 pm (#284 of 391)

Well, the more commonly used name for that origami figure is bird, not swan. It doesn't mean JKR didn't know that figure as the swan instead of the bird, and even if she knows it as the bird, she could think it looks like a swan. Anyway, I believe it is very farfetched (Not that I don't believe Cho could turn wrong after Marietta/Hermione and Michael/Ginny's issues). Maybe it's me thinking Jo was talking about something more obvious, but who knows how JKR's mind works?

Oh I'm sorry, I forgot I had to answer you, doradarling. I know [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] state Cho is a Japanese name meaning butterfly, but the only Japanese site about names I saw Cho mentioned was one for pets. Let's say I accord no credibility to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] sources concerning Japanese names. ^_~

Maollelujah - Jun 23, 2005 10:30 pm (#285 of 391)

I am not saying that Cho couldn't be a girl's name, but I have never heard of a Japanese girl with that name. Most likely it means something in Chinese, since Chang is a very popular Cantonese family name. (Zhang in Mandarin.)

On a side note, the character for bird can also be read as Cho in Japanese. (i.e. hakuchou 'white-bird or swan' yachou "wild bird" etc...)

Madame Pomfrey - Jun 24, 2005 5:16 am (#286 of 391)

That would make since why Jo chose the swan as her patronus, doesn't it? Thanks for the info.

applepie - Jun 24, 2005 8:30 am (#287 of 391)

Thanks for pointing that out, Maollelujah.

Cho's patronus now makes perfect sense, Madam Pomfrey.

You've got to love Jo's attention to detail!

TomoÈ - Jun 28, 2005 8:07 am (#288 of 391)

Maollelujah -> Most likely it means something in Chinese, since Chang is a very popular Cantonese family name. (Zhang in Mandarin.)

Oh! the Chang family is Cantonese! That would work better as there is no Cho in Mandarin Pinying* and a deformation of the Wade** ch'o, while not impossible, seems a bit off for a girl from a Chinese family. But there is at least 18 meaning for Cho in Cantonese.

*Pinyin: the international standard Romanization of Chinese, but the trickiest one. Chang should be pronounced tsang; xiao, shyaw; dao, tow; get what I mean?

**Wade: was the most commonly used Romanization system before the Pinyin was made up, and is still used by those who reject the confusion of Pinyin and those who didn't bother to up-grade to pinyin.

Mrs Brisbee - Jun 28, 2005 10:37 am (#289 of 391)

18 different meanings for Cho in Cantonese?! Wow.

If you know what they are, Tomoe, please could you post them?

TomoÈ - Jun 28, 2005 11:07 am (#290 of 391)

There 18 different meanings for Cho in Cantonese, but there are 5 different intonations used so it's not exactly 18 meaning for the same pronunciation. Anyway, here it goes (all different number indicate a different Chinese character):

Cho1/ChÚ (high falling)

1) beginning, initial, primary
2) chick, fledging; infant, toddler
3) polish, buff; scrutinize
4) trample; rub hands together
5) error, mistake, slip; failure
6) mow, cut grass; hay, fodder
7) high, towering; irregular, rugge

Cho2/ChÛ (high rising)

8) name of feudal state; clear
9) foundation stone, plinth
10) [no translation for this one]

Cho3/Cho (mid level)

11) error, blunder, mistake, wrong
12) push down; chop down; grind
13) carpenter's file, file smooth
14) cut, file, trim; file
15) anxious, apprehensive

Cho4/Chˆ (high level)

2) chick, fledging; infant, toddler
16) hoe; eradicate
17) a dwarf

Cho5/ChÚ (low falling)

18) sit; seat; ride, travel by

The site from which I took the information doesn't pretend to have all the possible Chinese characters, and not all of these 18 Chinese characters can become first names. I'm not that knowledgeable about Chinese, so I don't know if any of them are used as first name.

And here's the site for the Romanization of both Cantonese and Mandarin pinyin.

Mrs Brisbee - Jun 28, 2005 11:19 am (#291 of 391)

Thank you, Tomoe.

not all of these 18 Chinese characters can become first names.

You're right, a name like Mow Grass Chang just doesn't quite work

Gerald Costales - Jun 30, 2005 8:29 pm (#292 of 391)

Must everything JKR does have a hidden meaning?

I am amazed at the sometimes-subtle wordplay that JKR uses (Diagon Alley - diagonally, etc.), sometimes-deep effort that JKR uses (the Wand article on her website and the connection to the Celtic calendar ? July and Holly, thus why Harry’s Wand wood is Holly.), and of course the occasional hidden meanings (Stan and Ernie the Knight Bus workers are also the names of her grandfathers and the K in JKR's pen name is for Katherine one of Jo's grandmothers. Jo has no middle name).

Couldn't Cho Chang just be Cho Chang without any hidden meanings!?!?!

Now, there is the Korean comic Margaret Cho. So, I always thought Cho could be Korean. And there was Chang Kai-shek the ex-leader of Nationalist China. Whose to say Cho Chang isn't a mix of Korean, Chinese, and/or Japanese parentage. (You know Cho is a Half-Blood - half-Chinese and half-Japanese.)

18 days and counting!!! ;-) GC

PS Sometimes a Scar is a Scar. ;-) GC

PPS Or is a Lightning Bolt Scar just another Scar!?!?! ;-) GC

PPPS I'd rather have a Swan patronus than a frolicking Otter. At least a Swan could peck your eyes out. Think Basilisk and Fawkes. ;-) GC

Mrs Brisbee - Jul 1, 2005 5:12 am (#293 of 391)

GC, we are just idling away the time speculating on things that probably have no great consequence. For the fun of it. With HBP only a few weeks away I find myself in something of a holding pattern about the big important theories; we will get a lot of information very soon so we can re-think everything, so my brain doesn't want to bother expending the energy now on the big stuff.

In my mind I picture Cho as a British girl with some Chinese ancestry. In the end, her ancestry doesn't matter a whit, except in how perhaps we picture her to look.

Cho's name may mean nothing of interest, but we won't know if we don't look. Not all word play is obvious, and even obvious word plays can be missed (believe it or not, I missed Diagon Alley until someone pointed it out to me )

(And I don't think the form of a Patronus matters. It will protect the caster from Dementors if it is a cute otter, a regal swan, or a gnat)

Ydnam96 - Jul 1, 2005 8:38 am (#294 of 391)

Oh, I think an otter can be very helpful...they can sneak under things and be sly and quick. Aren't they related to weasels?

TomProffitt - Jul 1, 2005 12:23 pm (#295 of 391)

But it's neither an otter nor a swan, it's a patronus. Surely its magical composition and nature give power and ability beyond that of a simple animal.

Swan and otter are merely the forms of the patronus.

Ydnam96 - Jul 2, 2005 11:54 pm (#296 of 391)

Tom you are correct, but I do think that the animal has meaning, some insight into the character of, well, the character.

I think it's very interesting that Hermione's is a otter. But that's for another thread.

A swan. Now...that makes sense. They are graceful and beautiful but have nasty tempers if some of the stories I've heard are true. Which seems to fit Cho pretty well. (well, maybe not a nasty temper but pretty emotional)

Solitaire - Jul 5, 2005 10:00 am (#297 of 391)

In posts #1633-1639 over on Hermione's thread, Cho's response to Marietta's behavior has come up again. Since my response to wwtMask (post #1639) deals with Cho, I felt it belonged here rather than on Hermione's thread.

I agree with everything you have said about Cho with regard to her forming her opinions of those involved. I can't help feeling, however, that it shows her to be rather short-sighted. The truth is that, unless Marietta told Cho that she knew no one but Harry would be in serious trouble, then Cho could not have that information, and she should have realized that it was chance only that she herself was not in trouble. If I were Cho, I'd be wondering whom Marietta would betray next.

Frankly, there was quite a bit of harm caused by Marietta's actions, if you ask me. As a result of Marietta's betrayal, Dumbledore left the school. Because he was not there when Harry needed him most, Harry went to the Ministry to rescue Sirius (who really didn't need rescuing). This, in turn, led Sirius to go to the Ministry, where he met his death. Had Dumbledore been on campus, this probably would not have happened.

Marietta's betrayal set in motion a chain of events which ultimately resulted in Sirius's death. I find it interesting that Cho is unable to connect these dots. Perhaps she is in the wrong house ... no wonder she is jealous of Hermione. I can forgive Cho rather a lot, but I think she has really missed the boat on Marietta. At the very least, she needs to talk to Marietta about the issue of honor.

Solitaire

HungarianHorntail11 - Jul 5, 2005 10:25 am (#298 of 391)

I agree with both reasonings, Solitaire and wwtMask (Post 1639 on Hermione thread) because I think she did show signs of jealousy towards Hermione due to Harry's ineptitude with girls. However, I tend to think she forgave Marietta because, after having lost a friend, she may have come to the realization that people are more important than issues (after all, no one got caught - isn't that what she said?). For this reason, she may tend to overlook things that she may have otherwise been angry over. Losing someone tends to change one's perspective.

I am in no way sticking up for her or Marietta's actions, just getting a feel for their foundations.

MickeyCee3948 - Jul 5, 2005 4:07 pm (#299 of 391)

HH11 they Cho should have some understanding of the feelings Harry is having over the loss of his Godfather. If you ask me she is being as shortsighted as she thought Harry was. But that’s just my thoughts and I don't want to start any disagreements. ACCIO, HBP. Shucks, it still doesn't work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mickey

Mrs Brisbee - Jul 6, 2005 6:00 am (#300 of 391)

I can't condemn Cho for sticking by her friend for several reasons. One is that Marietta is a character with a non-speaking role. We see her actions, but never hear directly from her what her motives are, so they remain murky. Since Cho appears to be the only one who has talked to Marietta about what happened, I have to give weight to Cho's opinion on the matter. Cho doesn't seem the type to quickly throw away a friendship either, I think HH11 is right about that.

Marietta's betrayal set in motion a chain of events which ultimately resulted in Sirius's death. --Solitaire

I think that chain of events was started long before Marietta got involved, though she was certainly a significant link in it. Fudge had been looking for any excuse to arrest Dumbledore for months. If blame is going to be passed out for Sirius's death Marietta will be standing in a long line behind Voldemort, Bellatrix, Peter Pettigrew, Umbridge, Fudge, Dumbledore, and Harry. The interesting thing is that all these people had different motives for creating this chain of events. I think the lesson here is that bad decisions cause harmful consequences, regardless of motives.

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dobbyiscool - Jul 6, 2005 8:56 am (#301 of 391)

Wow, blaming Marietta for all of the problems that happened seems a little harsh. If your going to blame her, you should also blame her mother, who worked for the ministry and put pressure on her. You should also blame Hermione because she is the one who wrote "Dumbledore's Army" on the parchment. But, to relate back to the topic of Cho, Cho is to blame for dragging Marietta along to the first DA meeting.

As for Cho sticking up for Marietta, Harry was also defending Hermione's 'sneak' idea, which probably made Cho a little upset.

Sorry, but that discussion reminded me of when we read Romeo and Juliet two years ago in school. My friend and I decided the tragedy was Rosalin's fault. If she hadn't become a nun, then Romeo would never have picked up Juliet...

Solitaire - Jul 6, 2005 9:25 am (#302 of 391)

I'm not blaming her for everything. I am saying she set in motion a chain of events which resulted in Sirius's death. Would Dumbledore have been railroaded out eventually, even without her? Maybe ... but maybe not. We will never know. However, with Dumbledore at Hogwarts, it is far less likely that Harry would have felt the need to go to the Ministry--a move which proved fatal for Sirius.

And yes, I believe Cho should have been a bit more mature where the DA were concerned. If she wanted to participate, she was certainly old enough to do so without requiring Marietta to accompany her. She knew Marietta didn't want anything to do with it, so why press her? There were other Ravenclaws there.

Solitaire

Steve Newton - Jul 6, 2005 10:15 am (#303 of 391)

Dumbledore wasn't exactly railroaded. He confessed to something that seemed to be very nearly treason.

Back to Cho. It seems to me that you only really need a friend when things are going bad. I think that Cho's sticking by Marietta, when all of the intelligent world hates her, shows some moral strength. I think that this says something positive about Cho.

Ponine - Jul 6, 2005 4:29 pm (#304 of 391)

I think there is a big difference between sticking by a friend (who, incidentally, was willing to risk your being expelled) and condoning or minimizing the significance of her actions. If those two go way back, and worked everything out and forgave and forgot, so be it. Downplaying the incident to Harry was not something that impressed me - she is a Ravenclaw and at least fifteen - she should have known better.

Mrs Brisbee - Jul 6, 2005 5:08 pm (#305 of 391)

Cho was at least 16. She is in the year above Harry.

Still, I pulled my book out and reread that scene. The conversation starts off well enough, with Harry concerned about Cho and Cho apologetic for ever bringing Marietta to the meetings, but goes rapidly downhill. Cho is trying to plead Marietta's case, and I don't see anything wrong with that. Harry is ticked off and quite understandably doesn't want to hear it at the moment. Every time Cho tries to say something to Harry he interrupts her. She downplays Marietta's guilt more and more, and Harry just gets more irate. I don't think either of them helped that conversation along. So Cho and Harry argue and we never get to hear why Marietta thought it would be a good idea to rat out the DA.

Maybe Cho shouldn't have tried to downplay Marietta's actions, and maybe Harry should have kept his temper in check and listened.

MickeyCee3948 - Jul 6, 2005 5:11 pm (#306 of 391)

Has anyone considered that Cho was in on it. She was mad at Harry and jealous of Hermione so she could have been the one to put Marietta up to it. What better way to get back at the both of them and she is smart enough to put it all together. Surely she could claim she was under a spell.

Mickey

Mrs Brisbee - Jul 6, 2005 5:31 pm (#307 of 391)

Lol, Mickey. I don't know what else to say about that idea. I hope you don't mind my chuckling over it though. Playing Iago to Marietta to get even with Harry and Hermione --now that would be true duplicity!

Solitaire - Jul 6, 2005 9:47 pm (#308 of 391)

I agree with Ponine here. I see nothing wrong with sticking by a friend in need. However, I do think that real friends need to be able to confront each other when they act badly and find out the reason behind the behavior. If Cho had done this, I do not think she would have needed to (attempt to) justify Marietta's actions to Harry. She would have said something about how horrible Marietta felt about Harry getting into trouble, how she wishes she could apologize, the extent of the remorse she felt ... She could even have said that she knows Marietta totally screwed up, but she is still her friend and she can't turn her back on her. Harry wouldn't agree, but he might understand.

The fact that Cho mentions nothing about Marietta feeling remorse leads me to feel that she does not really feel Marietta did anything wrong. She seems to be justifying Marietta's betrayal pointing out Hermione's "SNEAK"iness. The fact that Marietta promised not to tell just seems to have been forgotten. It is Cho's attempts to minimize Marietta's actions that Harry just can't take.

I don't know whether I agree with Mickey that Cho was in on the whole thing--although I suppose anything is possible. I do, however, think she was wrong in attempting to justify what was a blatant betrayal of everyone.

Solitaire

dobbyiscool - Jul 7, 2005 1:25 pm (#309 of 391)

I doubt she was in on it. She was learning a lot from the DA, and even when they fight, she really likes Harry.

Gerald Costales - Jul 7, 2005 7:12 pm (#310 of 391)

Cho had been emotional all year. Even Hermione mentioned that Cho could be found crying in the Girl's Restroom at times. Give Cho a break, Cedric was murdered. Part of Cho's attraction to Harry was that Harry was there when Cedric was killed. Cho was trying to reconnect with Cedric by talking to and getting to know the last person, Harry, who had contact with Cedric. Now, Harry was cute and quiet and liked Cho. But, Cho really wasn't ready for a new boyfriend. Cho was just emotionally fragile and still mourning Cedric. And Harry was inexperienced with girls romantically. Not a good start for a good romance.

The Marietta and Cho thing is still murky. Marietta is a traitor. No doubt about it. Why is Cho willing to stick up for Marietta? Now, that is still unknown. There is more to Cho's loyalty then mere friendship. What if Marietta was under a spell? Wouldn't an Imperious Curse have made Marietta betray the DA? If Marietta was under a spell then who cast it Umbridge, Fudge, Snape, ?????

July 16th is coming up fast. Just a little over a week. ;-) GC

PS If a Hermione vs. Cho rivalry still exists in Book 6, I don’t see it centering on Harry. I still see the DA existing in Book 6 and both Hermione and Cho are the only students besides Harry that can perform the Patronus Charm. So it should be an Otter vs. Swan showdown over the leadership of the DA in Book 6. In regards to the future DA, I think the Swan will soar while the Otter is mired. ;-) GC

Solitaire - Jul 7, 2005 9:10 pm (#311 of 391)

I really do not see Cho and Hermione battling over the leadership of the DA. While Cho may have some choice words for Hermione over Marietta's dermalogical dilemma, I doubt she wants to lead anything--unless, perhaps, it is the Ravenclaw Quidditch team. Might she be its new Captain?

As for Hermione, I suspect that her leadership aspirations are probably confined to attempting to lead the House-elves into rebellion against their enslavement. Just a hunch ...

Solitaire

Steve Newton - Jul 8, 2005 4:48 am (#312 of 391)

From chapter 38 OOTP:

"Cho was passing, accompanied by Marietta Edgecombe, who was wearing a balaclava. His and Cho's eyes met for a moment. Cho blushed and kept walking. Harry looked back down at the chessboard just in time to see one of his pawns chased off its square by Ron's knight." Cho is the pawn? Ron said in SS, "I will be a knight." Harry was the bishop and Hermione was a castle. Who is playing the game???? Watch the chess games.

I posted this in the OOTP read along. It looks pretty clear to me that Cho is no longer a factor to Harry.

Madame Pomfrey - Jul 8, 2005 9:09 am (#313 of 391)

Sounds good Steve. Have you given any more thought to starting the chess thread?

Steve Newton - Jul 8, 2005 10:02 am (#314 of 391)

Yes, I have. I'm rereading and except for SS COS and POA don't have much. (I'm not done POA yet. GOF is looking tough before next week.) Maybe tomorrow.

Solitaire - Jul 8, 2005 12:01 pm (#315 of 391)

I agree, Steve, that Harry considers Cho as a part of his past. Whether she is over him remains to be seen. Now that he has proven his mettle against the DEs and Voldemort yet again, he may arouse her interest again. We never know ...

Also, given what happened at the DoM, it is possible that Cho may eventually come to see Marietta's actions in a different light. So may Marietta. Well, we can always hope ...

Solitaire

Gerald Costales - Jul 10, 2005 10:28 am (#316 of 391)

My younger Son & I have entertained the idea that Cho will die and be reunited with Cedric. It is a bit Gothic, but still a possibility. I still believe the ability to do the Patronus Charm is important. Even Fred & George were unable to master it. So, I believe Cho still has some small role to play in the Series.

Now, Marietta is a big sticky loose end. But, why must Cho be linked with Marietta? Not everything Ron does is linked to Harry and vice a versa. If Harry continues playing Quidditch, Harry & Cho will meet at least on the Quidditch field.

This is Cho's last year so there maybe some importance in Cho’s future career. Cho could work for the Ministry and possibly even becoming an Auror. Cho is a Ravenclaw, so she should be pretty good academically.

Less than a week. ;-) GC

TomoÈ - Jul 11, 2005 11:02 am (#317 of 391)

Solitaire -> Marietta's betrayal set in motion a chain of events which ultimately resulted in Sirius's death. I find it interesting that Cho is unable to connect these dots. Perhaps she is in the wrong house ... no wonder she is jealous of Hermione. I can forgive Cho rather a lot, but I think she has really missed the boat on Marietta. At the very least, she needs to talk to Marietta about the issue of honor.

It's comfortable to find some nasty person as a spare goat, but "it was all Marietta's fault" is as wrong as "Snape must be blame for it all" as Harry think at the end of OoP. I believe Dumbledore was right, he is the one to blame as he forgot to draw an emergency procedure for Harry. It happened the simple presence of Dumbledore could have save the day that time, but Voldemort would have come with something else to lure Harry out of the school, had Dumbledore been in. There was a major flaw in Dumbledore's plan and Marietta’s blunder uunfortunately revealed it.

I believe Cho has forgotten Marietta because she has all the facts straight, which we still haven't. I hope we'll get these facts in HbP.

As for Quidditch Captaincy, her performances were no near brilliant in OoP, it should play against her. Unless her new relationship with Michael gave her the balance she missed since Cedric's death, I don't see it happening. Or maybe now the war is finally ongoing and Cedric is recognize as the martyr he is instead of being mistaken for a careless daredevil who get himself killed by some monster in the maze, maybe Cho will find the strength to go on.

Solitaire - Jul 11, 2005 1:34 pm (#318 of 391)

Since this is not Marietta's thread, I will not discuss the right or wrong of her behavior, since my opinion is well known and I stand by it. When I said that Cho "needs to talk to Marietta about the issue of honor," I meant it. I still do. If Cho does not see the seriousness of Marietta's actions, I think she needs to ask herself why Marietta's betrayal does not bother her--because it is an important issue. I appreciate that many do not agree with me ... I don't require it. This is just how I feel.

Solitaire

MickeyCee3948 - Jul 11, 2005 3:59 pm (#319 of 391)

Solitaire - "You Go Girl". I agree with you but I can see Tomoe's point of view. Harry will in my opinion come to realize that everyone must accept a little of the blame for Sirius's death. Harry, Marietta, Snape, Umbridge, Fudge, Dumbledore and Sirius himself all did things which contributed to the death of Harry's godfather. I believe the adults will realize this faster than Harry but he will come around, eventually. As far as Cho goes, I think she is in Harry's past as she must be.

Question--Has this girl ever gone more than a week without a boy friend? She changes boyfriends more often than the weather changes. That is the main reason I don't particularly care for her character.

Mickey

Mrs Brisbee - Jul 11, 2005 4:05 pm (#320 of 391)

Did she have a boyfriend before Cedric? I don't think she had a boyfriend in the months after Cedric died until she and Harry kissed under the mistletoe. Did she have a boyfriend during the months that passed between Marietta ratting out the DA and her and Harry stopped talking to each other and her finally going out with Roger Davies?

Sounds to me like she goes for long stretches of time without a boyfriend. Is three boyfriends in several years too many? The first one dies, which is hardly her fault, so I don't think we should fault her for eventually moving on. Harry and Cho didn't work out, but it seems silly to expect someone not to date again because romance no.2 didn't work out either.

MickeyCee3948 - Jul 11, 2005 4:09 pm (#321 of 391)

What about Michael? Not trying to cause an argument, JM2K's.

Mickey

Mrs Brisbee - Jul 11, 2005 4:12 pm (#322 of 391)

Ah, I think I mixed up Davies and Corner. She turned Davies down earlier. He wasn't her boyfriend at all. She went out with Corner after she and Harry weren't talking anymore.

Solitaire - Jul 12, 2005 11:20 pm (#323 of 391)

Actually, Mickey, I think serial dating is pretty normal for Cho's time of life (age 16). I don't really think it is fair to judge her dating habits by adult standards. It is possible that, had Cedric lived, they might have become life partners. We will never know that now. It is also possible that she is comparing every guy she dates to Cedric ... and they all come up short.

Solitaire

David Breeze - Aug 3, 2005 1:11 am (#324 of 391)

Does anybody think that we will see anymore of Cho now that she has left Hogwarts? Personally, I think that she is gone for good...

Mrs. Sirius - Aug 3, 2005 9:01 pm (#325 of 391)

If Harry returns to Hogwarts, Cho might be a quick glance for Harry of the world that was. Just as after Sirius' death, he said something to the effect of this "belongs to the world with Sirius and that is from the world after Sirius".

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Susurro Notities - Aug 4, 2005 6:00 pm (#326 of 391)
Edited by Aug 4, 2005 7:00 pm

Although Harry will always think of a world before Sirius' death and after I don't think Cho will be a big part of that. Instead I think Harry will focus on the lost possibilities with Ginny.

Mrs. Sirius - Aug 4, 2005 8:41 pm (#327 of 391)

Oh, Susurro, in no way did I intended to insinuated that Harry would view Cho as the important factor. Simply that JK, if she takes us back to Hogwarts at all, would let us see some of the people we have met so far, more as a continuity.

I have been a big Harry/Ginny (I won't say "'shipper") supporter since early early on.

Susurro Notities - Aug 5, 2005 5:03 am (#328 of 391)

We are of one mind Mrs. Sirius

mike miller - Aug 5, 2005 6:52 am (#329 of 391)

Cho is a year ahead of Harry, so she wouldn't be at Hogwarts if Harry returns.

It might be fun to speculate on what she might be doing career wise; though, I don't think a career as a Seeker for the Tornados is in the offing.

Gerald Costales - Aug 6, 2005 6:49 am (#330 of 391)

I think that Cho may go to work for the Ministry. Percy does, so capable Hogwarts students can go directly from Hogwarts to work for the Ministry.

With the War and all, the Ministry should be hiring more wizards and witches. I see the Ministry growing adding Aurors, law enforcement, inspectors, etc. to battle Voldemort and the Death Eaters.

Also during WWII at least in the US, several schools graduated students early so that they could enlist in the Armed Services. Hogwarts is equivalent to a High School, but I could see some advanced students graduating early. ;-) GC

irish flutterby - Aug 21, 2005 7:57 pm (#331 of 391)

I haven't read any of the other posts yet, but I just have three words.

Drama, drama, drama.

timrew - Aug 22, 2005 2:26 pm (#332 of 391)

And to that, irish flutterby, I would add - 'Drama'.

Gerald Costales - Aug 30, 2005 5:41 am (#333 of 391)

Cho may become old news. But JKR seems to reintroduce minor past details and reveal them to be more important in later books. Ginny's Diary had the memory of Tom Riddle (the Diary was a Horcrux later and contained a seventh of Voldemort’s soul); Harry spoke to a Boa in the Reptile House (Harry is a Parselmouth later having gained the ability to speak to snakes from Voldemort himself); Hagrid had Sirius' motorbike when he delivered the infant Harry to Dumbledore (Sirius was Harry's Godfather later and was imprisoned for the deaths of James and Lily); etc.

I believe Cho will have some other part to play in Book 7. Even if she ends up partnered with Cormac McLaggen. (Merciful Heavens!!! No!!! I do like Cho. But, I hope you know what I mean.) So, Cho maybe part of the Underground network that will provide Harry, Ron, & Hermione with food, shelter, & aid as they ferret out the remaining Horcruxes and ultimately defeat Voldemort.

Harry will need good friends to defeat Voldemort. Even if it's an ex-girlfriend like Cho. (Imagine Cho with a beret passing on food and info to Harry, Ron, & Hermione. It's just like some old WWII movie.) ;-) GC

PS Has there been any discussion about Marietta's Purple Pimples!?!?! Marietta still has a face full of PIMPLES. That traitorous SNEAK!!! And Cho is still friends with Marietta. ;-) GC

Vulture - Sep 30, 2005 11:18 am (#334 of 391)

Cho is a year ahead of Harry, so she wouldn't be at Hogwarts if Harry returns. (mike miller - Aug 5, 2005 7:52 am (#329))

I thought she was in the same year; in fact, I'm nearly sure she is _ I worked it out during the early books, but I forget how.

haymoni - Sep 30, 2005 11:39 am (#335 of 391)

Vulture - I thought they were the same year also, but Cho says, "Remember when we were playing in the 3rd year?"

It was Harry's 3rd year at school, but it was Cho's 3rd year playing Quidditch, since she would have followed the traditional 1 year wait. She was a 4th year when Harry noticed her.

rambkowalczyk - Oct 1, 2005 12:38 pm (#336 of 391)

A number of people have speculated that Ginny might be in danger because she was Harry's girlfriend. That Voldemort might threaten to hurt her if Harry didn't do something... But how many students knew about Harry and Ginny especially outside of Gryffindor tower? Draco could be clueless and actually think that Harry is still longing for Cho. He might tell Voldemort that the way to hurt Harry is to hurt Cho.

Sparrowhawk - Oct 1, 2005 1:12 pm (#337 of 391)

It is far more likely that everyone is aware of Harry being in love with Ginny; remember that they spend a lot of time together, in the weeks preceding the Owls, without hiding their feelings. There is no secret.

And apparently not only the Gryffindor students, but also (some of) the teachers must be aware of this new partnership. It is debatable whether Snape actually knows, although Harry believes that he does, but it is unquestionable that Slughorn knows. Not only is he said to approve of Ginny, but he actually alludes, during his lessons, to Harry being lovesick... therefore the Slytherins who attend potions at newt level have got the information, and one can safely bet that it has become common knowledge at least among the Slytherin students.

frogface - Oct 2, 2005 12:45 am (#338 of 391)

I expect it was well known throughout the school. Remember that Harry is a celebrity anyway, and Ginny is very popular, not to mention the fact that gossip travels VERY fast in a school environment.

Still I also wonder whether or not Cho has now filled her purpose within the story, so your guess is as good as mine.

Lady Nagini - Nov 13, 2005 10:31 pm (#339 of 391)
Edited by Nov 13, 2005 10:32 pm

"The fact that Harry Potter was going out with Ginny Weasley seemed to interest a great number of people, most of them girls..." (US HBP 535)

So it would seem that everyone in the school knew about them, especially since Ginny dated a Ravenclaw last year (which indicates that she's popular with more than just the Gryffindors). Unless Draco spent zero time with Pansy during 6th year, he would know about them as well. I'm pretty sure Voldemort won't specifically use Cho against Harry, now that he knows she is no longer his primary interest.

Vulture - Sep 2, 2006 9:37 am (#340 of 391)

Cho deserves great honour for defending her indefensible friend out of loyalty and friendship. (Vulture - Sep 1, 2006 8:05 pm (#941, Marietta Edgecombe thread))

I'm afraid that, since I wrote the above, it has occurred to me that Cho might have had less worthy motives. After all, Harry was in some sense her boyfriend _ it's possible that she was trying (in her conversation with Harry after Marietta's betrayal) to have things both ways: to be able to keep both Harry and her friend. When Harry's reaction makes clear that she has to choose, she chooses Marietta.

(See also that same post, #941, Marietta Edgecombe thread, for stuff about Cho's last argument with Harry. I don't quote it here because I felt that a lot of it amounted to Cho speaking on behalf of Marietta.)

Gerald Costales - Sep 8, 2006 9:18 pm (#341 of 391)

In the HBP, only three DA members could do the Patronus Charm. Harry’s patronus was Prongs. Hermione’s patronus was an Otter. And finally Cho’s patronus was a Swan.

I believe that Cho’s ability to do the Patronus Charm could mean that there is more to Cho then one might expect. Remember the DA included Fred, George, and Ginny. Fred and George are very skilled Wizards (just look at the products that they’ve produced for their shop). And Ginny would be with Harry at the Battle in the Ministry of Magic.

In Book 7, we should expect to find Cho working somewhere in the Wizarding World. Harry won’t turn to Ginny for aid and information because Harry wants to shield Ginny from harm. And Harry couldn’t expect help from strangers. Because there is no way of telling who is a supporter of the Death Eater and who isn’t. And don’t forget the Imperious Curse. Madame Rosmerta was under its effects for most of Book 6. So, Harry, Ron, and Hermione would turn to trusted friends and trusted supporters. Despite Marietta, Cho I believe is still grateful to Harry because of Cedric. And Harry I believe doesn’t hate Cho but dislikes Cho’s loyalty to Marietta.

What’s that old saying ? In a storm, one seeks shelter in any port available. Harry may need Cho in a desperate situation or simply for some aid and shelter. I don’t expect a rekindling of their romance just some supplies and may be some information. ;-) GC

PS I wouldn't be surprised if Cho became Auror just because Cedric was killed by Voldemort. I get the impression that Cho is a very bright Witch (she is a Ravenclaw by the way). ;-) GC

Choices - Sep 9, 2006 10:10 am (#342 of 391)

Gerald - "In the HBP, only three DA members could do the Patronus Charm."

Sorry, but I think it's possible that more members could conjure a Patronus.. We are only told about those three, but I believe more could do them. Right at the end of the lesson (where they get caught), Dobby enters and then....

"The few Patronuses people had managed to conjure faded away into silver mist, leaving the room looking darker than before."

Seamus had conjured a Patronus that was "something hairy". It's not proof positive, but I believe it indicates that several of the members were successful in conjuring Patronuses.

Solitaire - Sep 9, 2006 12:48 pm (#343 of 391)

Producing a Patronus in a situation that is nonthreatening is quite different than producing it in a life-or-death situation, I think. Even Harry struggled when Dementors were present. He was not able to produce a Patronus on the first try when they went after him and Dudley, was he?

Solitaire

Vulture - Sep 9, 2006 1:58 pm (#344 of 391)

What’s that old saying ? In a storm, one seeks shelter in any port available. Harry may need Cho in a desperate situation or simply for some aid and shelter. I don’t expect a rekindling of their romance just some supplies and may be some information. ;-) GC (Gerald Costales - Sep 8, 2006 10:18 pm (#341))

The only problem is that if Ginny found out, she would E X P L O D E.

Gerald Costales - Sep 10, 2006 6:40 am (#345 of 391)

"The only problem is that if Ginny found out, she would E X P L O D E." Vulture

I’d hate to see the bickering that Ron and Hermione did throughout most of Book 5 and also the additional bickering Ron and Hermione did partially through Book 6. But, Ginny is patient and practical. Look how Ginny didn’t moon over Harry or pursuit Harry. Ginny is tough and would trust Harry not to flirt with others during the ordeals that should arise in Book 7. If Ginny needed help, I would imagine Ginny accepting aid from Dean Thomas and hopefully Harry wouldn’t mind.

?He (Harry) was not able to produce a Patronus on the first try when they went after him and Dudley, was he?? Solitaire

But, Harry didn’t learn the Patronus Charm until later in PoA. Harry hadn’t even met Lupin on the Hogwarts Express and then it was until much later that Lupin would eventually teach Harry the Patronus Charm.

Revenge seems to be a partial theme going into Book 7. Isn’t it Lupin who tells Harry that the Destruction of Voldemort is in part to avenge the Deaths of James and Lily. And now there is the additional burning hatred from Harry for Snape because of Snape's brutal AK of Dumbledore. Neville I believe will seek out Bellatrix to avenge Neville’s parents? torture. And I would think Cho could also seek to avenge Cedric’s murder.

Choices, I haven’t reread the scene you have mentioned. But I doubt if Dean Thomas, Seamus, etc. and the other DA members, not mentioned that were performing the Patronus Charm, have the strong revenge motive that Harry now has.

I don’t think Book 7 will be simply a shootout. But, there should be some confrontation and two Major characters will die. ;-( GC

Choices - Sep 10, 2006 8:59 am (#346 of 391)

?He (Harry) was not able to produce a Patronus on the first try when they went after him and Dudley, was he?? Solitaire

Gerald - "But, Harry didn’t learn the Patronus Charm until later in PoA. Harry hadn’t even met Lupin on the Hogwarts Express and then it was until much later that Lupin would eventually teach Harry the Patronus Charm."

Harry learns the Patronus Charm in book three and the scene Solitaire is speaking of happens at the start of book 5.

Book 5 when the Dementors attack Harry and Dudley - I think it is on his third try that Harry manages to produce a real Patronus, not just wisps of silvery smoke.

Solitaire - Sep 10, 2006 9:59 am (#347 of 391)

I really don't think revenge is an issue, Gerald. Anyone being attacked by a Dementor has as strong a motive as Harry to produce a Patronus ... unless he or she wants to be soul-sucked!

Solitaire

Gerald Costales - Sep 10, 2006 11:13 am (#348 of 391)

"...Anyone being attacked by a Dementor has as strong a motive as Harry to produce a Patronus..." Solitaire

I'm not saying that to produce a Patronus you need to be strongly emotional. I was saying that in Book 7, Harry will be motivated to find Voldemort and/or Snape for revenge. ;-) GC

PS The DA members had no pressure and were producing Patronuses freely in the Room of Requirements. To clarify my last post, I was trying to suggest a reason for Cho to resurface in Book 7, which was Cho’s possible desire to avenge the death of Cedric. ;-) GC

PPS Part of the failure of the Harry/Cho pairing is that Cho and may be Harry hasn’t fully dealt with the murder of Cedric. ;-) GC

PPPS Thanks Choices with 6 Books it sometimes is easy to mix up the sequence of events. ;-) GC

Solitaire - Sep 10, 2006 5:58 pm (#349 of 391)

I was responding to this statement of yours, Gerald: But I doubt if Dean Thomas, Seamus, etc. and the other DA members, not mentioned that were performing the Patronus Charm, have the strong revenge motive that Harry now has. I guess I misunderstood.

It seemed to me as though you felt revenge was necessary to perform a Patronus under pressure. I thought we were talking about performing Patronuses. Sorry.

Solitaire

Meoshimo - Sep 10, 2006 7:20 pm (#350 of 391)

Sorry if this is repeating, but I thought that Ron could produce a patronus in the form of a Jack Russell Terrier. Or did I just make that up?

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Laura W - Sep 11, 2006 12:31 am (#351 of 391)

No book canon, Meoshimo. But from the Leaky Cauldron and Mugglenet Interview; July 16, 2005:

"MA: What's Ron's Patronus?

"JKR: Ron's Patronus? Have I never said that either? Oh no, that's shocking! [Laughter.] Ron's Patronus is a small dog, like a Jack Russell, and that's a really sentimental choice, because we've got a Jack Russell. He's insane."

Laura

Gerald Costales - Sep 11, 2006 3:37 pm (#352 of 391)

(re: post# 349) Solitaire, no need to be sorry. ;-) GC

Skimmed to see if there was a Patronus thread and as far as I can tell there isn’t one. So, here are some thoughts about Patronuses. (in particular Cho’s)

We know that it is possible to change your Patronus. Tonks changed her Patronus in Book 6 (can’t remember what her old Patronus was). But, the new Patronus was a Werewolf (for Lupin) and not a Big Black Dog (for Sirius) as Harry had first thought.

Would Cho possibly change her Patronus to honor Cedric? The Swan was fun and pretty but things change as Cho may be changing going into Book 7. There is no way of knowing what state of mind Cho may be in now (with her friend Marietta still scarred) or in Book 7 by the way.

May be Cedric is old news and Cho has moved on. So, the Swan Patronus would remain. I feel a fun and pretty Swan as a Patronus isn’t all that bad by the way. I could imagine an irate Swan pecking the eyes out of some threatening person or thing. Remember, Fawkes blinded the Basilisk in CoS. I can't imagine what protection a frolicking Otter Patronus would provide for Hermione by the way.

Cho could be in a darker or more serious mood perhaps still mourning the lost of her true love Cedric. Also, many things changed with the Death of Dumbledore. Cho could feel that her Swan Patronus is childish and not serious. Most people could now be experiencing a loss of innocence. The Wizarding World is a Darker and more Dangerous place with Voldemort and Death Eats around and Dumbledore murdered.

What Cho would change her Patronus to I couldn’t guess. But, a new Patronus for Cho could depend on what job Cho found in Book 7 (if Cho is indeed in Book 7 that is). Most people want to make a good impression in their first job. And I feel Cho may choose being an Auror as a job (again to either honor Cedric or avenge Cedric).

We all have some favorite character or characters in the Books. I know I’m just trying to think of a way (no matter how far fetched) that will allow Cho to return in Book 7. ;-) GC

PS Perhaps Cho, Luna, and Ginny could form a ?Dumbledore’s Angels?. ;-) GC

PPS At least I didn't suggest the "Moody Squad" with Cho, Dean Thomas, and Neville. ;-)

S.E. Jones - Sep 11, 2006 4:07 pm (#353 of 391)

Gerald Costales --Cho could be in a darker or more serious mood perhaps still mourning the lost of her true love Cedric. Also, many things changed with the Death of Dumbledore. Cho could feel that her Swan Patronus is childish and not serious. Most people could now be experiencing a loss of innocence.--

I thought a swan was the perfect patronus for a girl still thinking of her dead love. Swans usually mate for life (which is why you see them so often portrayed on wedding decorations, you know the two swans with their heads together making a "lovers' heart"), can be quite vicious went it comes to protecting their mates and eggs or cygnets (babies), and, for that reason, are rather territorial. Our university has this pretty little park with a pond in the middle and had the loveliest pair of swans. One of the swans (the male) was killed when someone tried to steal them. They think the swan got killed while attacking the would-be thief when the guy tried to grab the female swan. Anyway, the university tried for years and years to get another swan to replace the one they lost, but she wouldn't take on another mate, no matter how many times a new male was reintroduced into the park. There's nothing quite so beautiful as a pair of swans gliding across the water together, but nothing quite so sad as one listing all on her own.

Yeah, I definitely think Cho will stay with her swan patronus. It's the most fitting animal I can picture for someone who's lost their true love.....

Gerald Costales - Sep 11, 2006 5:10 pm (#354 of 391)

I thought perhaps Cho would be reunited with Cedric, but that seemed too Gothic. (Two ghostly lovers.)

I feel Cho is vilified for her loyalty to Marietta.

(My wife’s formerly supervisor gave her a picture album with two Cranes in flight for a wedding gift. Cranes like Swans also mate for live. And who could be more loyal than Fawkes, another feathered friend.)

Hermione in OotP tells Harry was crying in the Girls restrooms. And feel Cho was partly drawn to Harry because Harry was the last person with Cedric. ;-) GC

Choices - Sep 11, 2006 5:19 pm (#355 of 391)

Gerald, I don't think there is any evidence that a person can change their Patronus themselves. I think it changes quite on it's own volition due to circumstances in the person's life. Tonks was deeply depressed over Lupin not returning her love - he was, after all, a werewolf and thought he was too old for her, so she lost some of her magical abilities and also her Patronus changed. I don't believe she changed it on purpose, it just changed due to her state of mind.

Gerald Costales - Sep 12, 2006 5:35 am (#356 of 391)

"Tonks was deeply depressed over Lupin not returning her love..." Choices

And Cho could be as depressed, if not more so, after having Cedric murdered; ending a relationship with Harry on a sour note; having a dear friend scarred for some undetermined period of time; graduating Hogwarts; and starting a career.

Being young doesn’t exclude Cho from being depressed, lonely, and uncertain. Again, Cho is short sheeted just because of her seemingly non-importance. (I believe minor characters like Neville, Luna, Lupin, Tonks, Wormtail, Narcissa, etc. will contribute and have theirs roles in the conclusion of this Saga. So, even minor characters have some importance to add to the total events that will happen in Book 7.) ;-) GC

Die Zimtzicke - Sep 12, 2006 6:12 am (#357 of 391)

I really do not think now that Cho has left school that she will figure in the story again in any major way. I did at first, but then I'm one of the people who thought the DA would continue in book six, and it did not, to my intense disappointment. Unless Harry runs into her while horcrux hunting, I think Cho AND Marietta are done with. That frustrates me no end, but I just have a strong feeling they're out of there literally and figuratively.

Madame Pomfrey - Sep 12, 2006 7:20 am (#358 of 391)

Jo may still mention Cho and Marietta at the end of book 7, post Voldemort. I hope.

Meoshimo - Sep 12, 2006 9:37 pm (#359 of 391)

Tonks was deeply depressed over Lupin not returning her love -Choices

It's not that Lupin didn't return her love, he just didn't think it was right for them to be together. He was too old, too poor, and she deserved someone better.

Laura W - Sep 13, 2006 12:36 am (#360 of 391)

Of course you're right, Meoshima, but for those reasons he stopped himself from returning her love. So it really boils down to the same thing.

Laura

haymoni - Sep 13, 2006 5:23 am (#361 of 391)

That just makes me like Lupin even more - he could have strung her along and just used her. What a great guy!

Vulture - Sep 15, 2006 3:13 pm (#362 of 391)

Would Cho possibly change her Patronus to honor Cedric? The Swan was fun and pretty but things change as Cho may be changing going into Book 7. There is no way of knowing what state of mind Cho may be in now (with her friend Marietta still scarred) or in Book 7 by the way. (Gerald Costales - Sep 11, 2006 4:37 pm (#352))

I'm not sure that she would change it _ in various myths and magical tales, the swan isn't just fun and pretty. Actually, I wouldn't normally think of a swan as exactly "fun". Beauty, certainly _ that's involved. But swans have this tragic image, too. I'm not as well up on classical music as I should be, but isn't the story of "Swan Lake" a sad one ? One of the most tragic of ancient Irish legends is The Children Of Lir, all about four children who are changed into beautiful swans by an evil witch and doomed to live for nine hundred tragic years. (As JKR was kind enough to get Philosopher's Stone published in Irish (a rare occurrence, for which I gratefully thank her), my bet is she knows that tale.) Less sadly, but perhaps with a serious side, there's The Ugly Duckling who grows up to be a swan.

I like S.E. Jones's post #353 on this matter as well.

Kasey - Oct 6, 2007 12:51 pm (#363 of 391)

Hmm interesting. I am sure as well that myth ascribes this property to swans: that they mate for life and if their mate dies they don't pair up with another. Pretty much describes her lingering love for Cedric. Anyway I just wanted to post a comment here that I was pleased she turned up at the final battle in DH. Good for you girl (from a fellow Asian and someone who feels that Cho has been unfairly treated in general by fandom).

Hoot Owl - Oct 6, 2007 4:04 pm (#364 of 391)

Poor Michael.

Luna Logic - Oct 7, 2007 1:44 am (#365 of 391)
Edited by Oct 7, 2007 2:44 am

Kasey: someone who feels that Cho has been unfairly treated in general by fandom Welcome, Kasey

Being not Asian, I thing also that Cho character has being badly treated by some readers ...- and the film 5 has achieved the process of disqualification !

I like the character, and the moments when she appears in the books are always pleasant (IMO).

Die Zimtzicke - Oct 7, 2007 6:01 pm (#366 of 391)

Cho's soooo evil. She hands Harry his quill back when he drops it. She does not wear a "Potter stinks" badge. She's genuinely sorry she can't go to the ball with him. She joins the DA because she admires Harry's talent. She's loyal to her friends.

What a rotten girl...

Sarcasm, of course laid on pretty heavily here. Sorry.

PeskyPixie - Oct 10, 2007 12:50 pm (#367 of 391)

One often forgets that Cho is a young girl in a world filled with uncertainty. I have to agree with her that Hermione's jinx (SNEAK acne) is a nasty trick. Hermione (whom I love, by the way) should make it clear that traitors to the DA will be found out rather than leave it as a horrible surprise.

I know that JKR commented on this by saying, "I loathe a traitor", but must students who do not know Harry well believe in him unconditionally without proof that he is telling the truth?

Choices - Oct 10, 2007 4:08 pm (#368 of 391)

Then again, if a traitor is warned that they will be caught without a doubt, is that what is keeping them from being a traitor? If they had thought they would get away with betraying their friends, would they have gone ahead and done the betrayal? I think it is important, especially in times of war, to know who you can trust and who you can't. Would you commit a crime if you knew there was 100% certainty that you would not be caught? Hopefully your sense of right and wrong would keep you from doing it. I don't think Hermione should have to warn anyone.

Solitaire - Oct 14, 2007 10:47 am (#369 of 391)

I still agree with Choices.

PeskyPixie - Oct 14, 2007 11:33 am (#370 of 391)

If I were Hermione I'd let DA members know that any traitor to the group would be discovered. That would give Marietta Edgecombe something else to consider while contemplating snitching.

While it is quite noble to believe that one's 'sense of right and wrong' will be sufficient to prevent betrayal, I find it far more intelligent to openly lay out consequences for those weaker members who might feel the temptation to give in to the MoM. Let's not forget that members of the DA are potentially jeopardizing there futures by taking part in this club. All possible measures need to be taken to protect the majority of the DA who are faithful defenders of justice until the very end (i.e. Battle of Hogwarts).

At the end of the day, Hermione does put a powerful, scarring jinx on traitors to the DA. If I were Marietta I'd prefer the fear of unknown consequences fencing me in than having 'SNITCH' written in acne across my face. No, Hermione shouldn't have to warn anyone, but it would be a wiser decision (for all involved and in principle) if she would.

Cho is not my favourite character, but I do somewhat agree with her when she says, "She (Hermione) should have told us she'd jinxed that list."

Luna Logic - Oct 14, 2007 11:17 pm (#371 of 391)

PeskyPixie: Cho is not my favourite character, but I do somewhat agree with her when she says, "She (Hermione) should have told us she'd jinxed that list."

From a pragmatic point of view, to assure the success of the protection, it would have been more efficient.

Maybe the discussion here is about Ravenclaw/Gryffindor ways of thinking? Moral views coming first for Gryffindor, before efficiency?

PeskyPixie - Oct 15, 2007 12:30 pm (#372 of 391)

Maybe the discussion here is about Ravenclaw/Gryffindor ways of thinking ? Moral views coming first for Gryffindor, before efficiency? -Luna Logic

I was actually thinking on similar lines while writing my previous post, but rather than the characters' Houses I considered the Houses of each poster and their stance on the issue in question. Gryffindors and Hufflepuffs tend to think with their hearts while Ravenclaws and Slytherins generally function with their minds. I have been Sorted into Slytherin by practically every Sorting test I've taken (the times I did not join Slytherin I was put into Ravenclaw), thus I find many of HRH's decisions to be noble but poorly thought out. I agree with Cho on this one.

I would love to know whether others' beliefs during debates relate to the House they've been Sorted into.

Mrs Brisbee - Oct 18, 2007 4:08 am (#373 of 391)

I agree with Cho that fair play demands that they should have been told what they were signing, and I agree with you all that it would have been more effective protection for the D.A. if Hermione had warned everyone that the parchment was jinxed.

I think Hermione didn't tell them because she wanted as many people to join the D.A. as possible. Her mission goal was to train people in DADA because Lord Voldemort had returned. People were balking at signing the parchment when they thought it was only a simple parchment. So I think Hermione didn't tell them because she felt it important that they join, and it was worth the extra risk to the D.A. of the jinx being secret. So I agree with Cho that it was an unfair trick, and I agree with Hermione that it was a necessary ploy. Life's weird that way sometimes.

PeskyPixie - Oct 18, 2007 7:23 am (#374 of 391)

Actually, in my twisted little Slytherin mind it would make sense to get everyone's signature before informing them of the jinx on the list! (cackle, cackle)

Choices - Oct 18, 2007 10:49 am (#375 of 391)

Mrs. Brisbee - "I agree with Cho that fair play demands that they should have been told what they were signing...."

In other words, Hermione should have done what is fair and right, but Marietta didn't have to? If Hermione had to inform them about the jinx on the contract they signed, then Marietta should have had to come to the group and inform them that she was going to report them if they didn't disband the group. Fair is fair.

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Mrs Brisbee - Oct 18, 2007 10:52 am (#376 of 391)

?

That is not what I said "in other words", Choices.

?

Choices - Oct 18, 2007 11:07 am (#377 of 391)

Sorry Mrs. Brisbee - I guess I misunderstood you.

Mrs Brisbee - Oct 18, 2007 11:22 am (#378 of 391)

Sorry, perhaps my post was unclear.... I'll reread the pertinent posts later to see how we get from point A to point B

TwinklingBlueEyes - Oct 18, 2007 4:56 pm (#379 of 391)

Maybe starting the whole who was right thing, but to put my 2 knuts worth on, Cho lived in a dream world, and had a hard time adjusting to reality. Marietta got what she deserved.

...that said, toddles off elsewhere...

Mrs Brisbee - Oct 19, 2007 6:58 am (#380 of 391)

In other words, Hermione should have done what is fair and right, but Marietta didn't have to? If Hermione had to inform them about the jinx on the contract they signed, then Marietta should have had to come to the group and inform them that she was going to report them if they didn't disband the group. Fair is fair.--Choices

Okay, now I think I understand what you are saying-- and it is kind of amusing to think of Marietta having to rush out of Umbridge’s office because she needs to go inform the DA of her treachery first! maybe that's the sort of jinx Hermione should have put on the parchment. I was just thinking in general terms, because it is a dirty trick to put hidden clauses into a contract. When someone signs their name to something, they are indicating they understand and agree to all terms specified. I'd certainly be ticked off to discover after the fact that there something written in invisible ink on a contract I had signed, and I was bound to the part in invisible ink nonetheless, even if I had no intention of violating the contract. I see Cho being angry about that as perfectly reasonable. But she should be mad at Marietta, too. Perhaps it is her guilt at having dragged Marietta to the meetings, or her wistful belief that if the secret clause had just been revealed beforehand Marietta wouldn't have done it. It's hard to tell, because Cho is a minor character. Marietta barely qualifies as a character, so I admit I don't think about her much at all, and as a consequence she's not high up on my list of characters that I want to see disfigured for life. Now, if it were Lucius Malfoy who somehow got SCOUNDREL permanently written in pimples across his face, I'd find at least a little satisfaction in that.

PeskyPixie - Oct 19, 2007 7:18 am (#381 of 391)

I still stick by my plan of getting everyone to sign, then informing them that a powerful jinx has been placed on the list, so potential traitors beware! During the rise of a Dark Lord I'd find this tactic to be tough but honest. If only the Marauders had considered it during LV's first reign ...

Joanna Lupin - Oct 24, 2007 6:06 am (#382 of 391)

There was no hidden clause at all. Hermione said "By signing it, we all agree not to tell Umbridge what we're up to, ok?" and they all said "Ok."

Marietta broke the terms of the contract, she got what she deserved!

Mrs Brisbee - Oct 24, 2007 6:25 am (#383 of 391)

There was no hidden clause at all. Hermione said "By signing it, we all agree not to tell Umbridge what we're up to, ok?"

"By signing it, we all agree to not tell Umbridge what we are up to, and if one of us rats on the group that person will be permanently disfigured by 'SNITCH' written in pimples across his or her face, ok?"

I've bolded what the hidden clause would be if it had been spoken out loud. I am certain I am using the phrase correctly, and that there was a hidden clause.

Steve Newton - Oct 24, 2007 10:11 am (#384 of 391)

I have to agree with Joanna. Of course there are consequences to breaking an agreement. If you want to know what they are, ask. But this is approaching the area where the Marietta Wars broke out so I will now shut up.

Mrs Brisbee - Oct 24, 2007 10:25 am (#385 of 391)

Did anyone say there were not consequences to breaking a contract? I don't understand why the jinx isn't considered a clause, and why this clause being concealed doesn't make it a hidden clause. Argh! I really don't feel like pulling out my book to prove that Harry and Ron didn't know about it even though they were at the meeting until Hermione told them, and Cho didn't seem to know about it-- hence her comment-- and Marietta seemed not to know about it otherwise she wouldn't have been surprised into shutting up in Umbridge's office. I've said before that I thought Hermione's actions were necessary, but I don't see how that stops this from being a hidden clause. Perhaps I'm just missing your point of view, if you would care to elaborate?

PeskyPixie - Oct 24, 2007 11:00 am (#386 of 391)

Hidden jinx or no hidden jinx, Marietta's decision to snitch has many serious consequences. This is why I would've gotten everyone's signature, then alerted all DA members that traitors would be found out due to a jinx on the list. I honestly feel this would prevent potential snitchers from snitching, as the main purpose would be to protect DA members' identities. It's just the smartest thing to do; there is nothing noble behind my motives.

rambkowalczyk - Oct 24, 2007 2:30 pm (#387 of 391)

In the wizarding world a contract is unbreakable even if you didn't intentionally 'sign' it. For instance Harry had to participate in the Triwizard Tournament even though Harry did nothing to enter the contest. Marietta as well as Cho knew when she signed the contract that the agreement was no one was to tell Umbridge what they were doing. This was more than what Harry knew. If Harry can follow though on a contract he didn't enter, then Marietta should also be able to follow though on a contract that she knew about.

IMHO I think the permanent pimples were excessive punishment, however the wizarding world is harsh when it comes to magical contracts.

PeskyPixie - Oct 24, 2007 3:25 pm (#388 of 391)

If Harry can follow though on a contract he didn't enter, then Marietta should also be able to follow though on a contract that she knew about. -rambkowalczyk

I have problems with what 'should' be ideal behaviour as not all individuals are alike. The main point is that everybody is protected because nobody snitches rather than 'the ideal is that no one has traitorous thoughts ... D'oh! Darn that Marietta, we're all toast. Oh well, as least we can smirk about her acne for years to come.'

Does that make my point any clearer? I'm really not focusing on whether the SNITCH acne is deserved or not. Rather, what is the best way to prevent betrayal within a group of diverse individuals. I agree with Cho that a warning about the jinx (after everyone signs the list of course )would have prevented Marietta from tattling.

Mrs Brisbee - Oct 26, 2007 5:46 am (#389 of 391)

I do get your point, PeskyPixie. No doubt that Cho's way would have been more effective. I just think that Hermione was afraid some people would get angry or scared because of the jinx, and then not come to meetings and not learn how to protect themselves. In my opinion, effectively protecting the DA took a backseat to wanting as many people as possible to learn to defend themselves, even if the risk of the group getting caught was greater.

PeskyPixie - Oct 26, 2007 11:17 am (#390 of 391)

I see your point, Mrs Brisbee. Then, hmmm, put the Imperius Curse on the lot of them!

Barbara J - Oct 26, 2007 11:59 am (#391 of 391)

Hmmm. I think Hermione just really hates disloyalty.

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